# Police and Firefighters Stand by as Man Drowns



## kravturtle (Jun 1, 2011)

Seems like there was a lot wrong with this situation. Thoughts? 

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/06/01/california.drowning/index.html?iref=NS1


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## LucidResq (Jun 1, 2011)

Very hard to say without knowing the whole story. From what I've heard the people on scene that stood there and watched didn't have the training and/or equipment to perform a water rescue. 

Without training or equipment, jumping into the water to save a large suicidal drowning man would be idiotic. There's a very good chance you're both going to drown. It's absolutely silly for people to expect a police officer to rip off his uniform and jump in the water to rescue a 250 lb suicidal person in the water. Although FD came on scene soon afterwards, you will see from the public commentary that this is what many people hoped would happen since PD arrived first. 

Obviously though, there's at a minimum, issues with training, resources, equipment and policy. If an agency that covers that much water doesn't have water rescue capabilities, there needs to be some kind of mutual aid agreement that covers that gap. At least some creative use of the resources around you (but again who knows the whole story here). There was a somewhat similar incident in our city a while back - a suicidal party into the water, PD and FD on scene not trained in water rescue, 45+ eta for swiftwater team. There was a lot going on in the 45 min or so before the swiftwater team arrived, but none of it involved people jumping in the water.


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## abckidsmom (Jun 1, 2011)

Seems like a department with first due at the beach should have some water rescue resources available to them.  If this man was standing neck deep in water, and then drifted to being treading water, he was likely a long way out.  Without proper resources (a boat, or even a surfboard) and safety equipment, I would be pissed if someone I loved attempted this rescue.

People die trying to make untrained and unequipped rescues.  If the guy was being vocal about his insistence that he was going to commit suicide (the lines are like this:  "Get the f*** away from me.  I'll F***ing kill you, don't come near me.  I'll do it!  I mean it!") then I wouldn't think a swimming rescue in cold water with no wet suits and no PFDs is in order.

I'm a jump in and do something kind of person...even off duty, without proper equipment and with my kids along.  I've been there.  But without proper training and with limited or no equipment, I wouldn't be stripping down to get in that water.  

Now, in 45 minutes, they couldn't find a boat at the beach?  Hmmm.  Don't take unreasonable risks, but DO make moves to think outside the box if you find yourself backed into a corner.


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## foxfire (Jun 1, 2011)

I would have thought really hard before jumping in after a suicidal pt.  They can drown there untrained would be rescuer without much effort. Also try keeping a persons head above the surface in moving water, not really that easy. If they are not trained then they are setting aside personal safety and of there team. A drowning rescuer is no help to anyone.
 Please don't get me wrong, I am a lifeguard at heart. I would rescue someone if I knew I was going to be able to safely rescue them. 
 My two cents worth.
Any trained fast water rescuers in the forum care to chime in?


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## TransportJockey (Jun 1, 2011)

Suicidal patient, no thanks. I'm staying on dry land till a dedicated water rescue team or police boat gets there


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## JPINFV (Jun 1, 2011)

Reach, throw, row, go. The first three should be attempted if possible. The last one is only for people with specialty training.


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## LucidResq (Jun 1, 2011)

I'm not swiftwater-trained myself, but my friends in SAR that are told me they are trained to break a victim's arms if they're freaking out too much and at risk of pulling both themselves and rescuer down. Those who think rescuing a drowning person is as simple as swimming need to consider that fact, along with the large number of both laypeople and trained professionals who have died attempting to rescue a person or pet from the water.


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## abckidsmom (Jun 1, 2011)

A friend just posted this on his FB, with a WWYD? 

So far, 3 people have said they would swim out there and get the guy.  Idiots.


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## sirengirl (Jun 1, 2011)

Many years ago there was a man here who somehow managed to drive his car into some deep water (I'm assuming off a bridge on the bay here) and no-one in the county at that time was water rescue qualified, and so they had to stand by and watch him drown in his car. You'd better believe we now have a water rescue team. While I was doing clinicals I overheard on the radio system a call go out for a SCUBA rescue team and a LEO boat crew to get a drowning guy out of the boating channel.


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## JPINFV (Jun 1, 2011)

I'd be willing to get into a pool and let someone without training or equipment try to "rescue" me from a depth of 5 feet. I'm willing to bet I can drown them before they can "save" me.


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## Aidey (Jun 1, 2011)

This is a guy who doesn't even want to be rescued, which really makes things unsafe for EMS if they attempt to get him even with proper training and equipment. 

The guy made a choice, he had time to change his mind. People have got to be realistic. While I personally have some socialist leanings, I also feel a line has to be drawn. If you are determined to hurt yourself, I'm not talking you out of it.


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## Chimpie (Jun 1, 2011)

sirengirl said:


> Many years ago there was a man here who somehow managed to drive his car into some deep water (I'm assuming off a bridge on the bay here) and no-one in the county at that time was water rescue qualified, and so they had to stand by and watch him drown in his car. You'd better believe we now have a water rescue team. While I was doing clinicals I overheard on the radio system a call go out for a SCUBA rescue team and a LEO boat crew to get a drowning guy out of the boating channel.



I know exactly which one you're referring to.



Aidey said:


> This is a guy who doesn't even want to be rescued, which really makes things unsafe for EMS if they attempt to get him even with proper training and equipment.
> 
> The guy made a choice, he had time to change his mind. People have got to be realistic. While I personally have some socialist leanings, I also feel a line has to be drawn. If you are determined to hurt yourself, I'm not talking you out of it.



Many of  our fire trucks, and I believe the ambulances as well, now have some sort of lifesaver that they can throw out into the water in an attempt to rescue them.  This was a result of the call that sirengirl mentioned above.  IMO, it's a handy tool for rescuers to use, especially for the calls that's questionable like in the original post.


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## abckidsmom (Jun 1, 2011)

A few more details from Statter911:

http://statter911.com/2011/06/01/al...refighters-to-get-training-but-still-no-boat/


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## sirengirl (Jun 1, 2011)

@ link from abckidsmom, I love how much it is referencing their budget problems. We're currently looking at the possibility of some kind of a munity because Rick Scott wants to cut so much money from the State budget that he actually wants to pay teachers/LEO/correctionals/EMS/Fire less, and also cut into their benefits. It's all anyone at the firehouses around here talks about anymore. (Well, that, and what we're having for dinner...)

/hijack.


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## Journey (Jun 2, 2011)

The guy was floating and unconscious when a female bystander swam out and pulled him to shore. 

This little city has many problems including legal expenses for the FD and why they now have an interim Fire Chief. It was no surprise when their water unit was cut two years ago. As I remember it then, some in the FD thought it was a waste and a duplication of services since the Coast Guard has a big station there. A few FFs thought it was necessary but that was primarily those who were certified in this specialized training. For an island city with hundreds of wind surfers on that same beach every day, I think they should have found a way and put the differences between the union, lawyers and the city aside or at least reduce the legal expenses of all the bickering.


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## DrParasite (Jun 2, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> Reach, throw, row, go. The first three should be attempted if possible. The last one is only for people with specialty training.


for a patient that wants help, absolutely. 

 for a suicidal person who doesn't want help, they won't reach for you.  if you throw something, they probably won't try to catch you.  you can get a boat, if you have one.  but still if the person doesn't want help, you will be in for a fight.

but it's a law enforcement scene in that area, and the cops are in charge.  and we all know that firefighters have been arrested for not following the orders of the cops, and doing stuff that the cops didn't tell them too, esp on police scenes.


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## iftmedic (Jun 2, 2011)

Im just glad the rescuers were ok, As for the idiot in the water thats one less headache for society.


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## WuLabsWuTecH (Jun 2, 2011)

Hmmm... First multi-quote didn't take.  But at the first reply: They did have some sort of mutual aid with the coast guard is my understanding.  The unit was out on another run and had to refuel before coming back hence why it took them almost an hour to get there.  The return trip plus refuel took up a huge chunk of time.



abckidsmom said:


> Now, in 45 minutes, they couldn't find a boat at the beach?  Hmmm.  Don't take unreasonable risks, but DO make moves to think outside the box if you find yourself backed into a corner.



Ok, you have a boat, now what?  I, for one, would have no idea how to do a technical/water rescue off of a boat.  I think the key here is that he didn't want help.  If he did, throwing something would have been good enough.  But you pull up the boat next to him--he still won't climb in!



DrParasite said:


> for a patient that wants help, absolutely.
> 
> for a suicidal person who doesn't want help, they won't reach for you.  if you throw something, they probably won't try to catch you.  you can get a boat, if you have one.  but still if the person doesn't want help, you will be in for a fight.
> 
> but it's a law enforcement scene in that area, and the cops are in charge.  and we all know that firefighters have been arrested for not following the orders of the cops, and doing stuff that the cops didn't tell them too, esp on police scenes.



Not sure where you are from, but at least in my State (Ohio) Fire and EMS have authority over all scenes unless they relinquish it to the LE.  Is this not the case in most areas?


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## sirengirl (Jun 2, 2011)

Journey said:


> The guy was floating and unconscious when a female bystander swam out and pulled him to shore.



random hijack but... she's pretty beastly if he was 250lb like someone on here said... :blink:


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## foxfire (Jun 2, 2011)

sirengirl said:


> random hijack but... she's pretty beastly if he was 250lb like someone on here said... :blink:


A body in the water is not going to feel as heavy as on land. Plus fat floats a little more.


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## sirengirl (Jun 2, 2011)

True, but still. I always look at things from my physical standpoint, and I don't even weigh in the triple digits.


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## Shishkabob (Jun 2, 2011)

*Sigh*


Yet one more reason why I despise journalists...




Honestly, just like with gallows humor,  if someone doesn't have the balls to do the job we do, they shouldn't have the audacity to pass judgement on what we do in said job.  This journalist would never jump in to freezing waters to save a "drowning" man, yet she passes judgement on people who don't want to risk their own lives for a suicidal person?  


If what the journalists say is right (often not) and it was neck deep water, the damn guy could have walked out of the water if he wanted to... he clearly didn't, even after an "hour of treading water".




Friggin friggity frig frig.


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## jccilm (Jun 2, 2011)

You know they'll milk this a little bit (the journalist), but had some firefighter, LEO, or EMT gone out into the water and drowned with this AMS individual the journalist would maybe, maybe spend 30 seconds on this story. I can't fault the people that showed up on the scene for "standing around", you have to go back to your family at the end of the day. There is no difference here to me between a victim in San Francisco Bay and a victim under a downed power line or a victim in a haz-mat situation. You wait for proper resources to show or the victim moves to a safer location on their own.

If the guy was distraught the time to call 911 was before he went down to the beach and jumped into the water, just like you don't wait to see if they'll actually pull a gun or knife out or get a rope and really use them.


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## Journey (Jun 2, 2011)

Linuss said:


> *Sigh*
> 
> 
> Yet one more reason why I despise journalists...



Yet you would probably never turn down the opportunity to get your picture in the paper or tell all about your life saving heroics to a journalist either just as you do here.

You are only reading a couple of articles picked up the the national news service.  The local papers have many articles that were initiated by the FD/PDs  in another attempt to make this a political battle just like the amendment to the ordinance they wanted last year which drained the budget. The legal expenses could have been used to continue to support the Water Rescue Unit which Alameda did have. It was also the FD who helped make the choice to get rid of what they thought to be unnecessary services. 

If you have an agenda or want to promote your profession, the journalists and media sources can be your best friends.  But, the public who was present for that day are also entitled to their side. Some may also thought their tax increase was going to restore some of the services previously cut.  The 84 y/o step mother wanted to go into the water to save this man as did many others who knew him since Alameda is a rather small community  but were physically unable to do so because of age, physical ability and disability or advised not to by the FD and PD. 

It is also sad that some here do not have a greater understanding of depression and suicide or feel they must make fun of this person. Regardless of not being able to attempt a rescue, these patients deserve some compassion and so do their families. You probably have no idea what that 84 y/o went through trying to help him and is now the one who must put up with your comments to make her grief that much harder.  Regardless of what you think of suicidal people or just mental illness in general, they are still human beings.


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## Shishkabob (Jun 2, 2011)

Journey said:


> Yet you would probably never turn down the opportunity to get your picture in the paper or tell all about your life saving heroics to a journalist either just as you do here.



Continue to pretend you know me or what I do.  


I love how you were able to gleam all your response from an 8 word response showcasing my disgusts of journalists.


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## Journey (Jun 2, 2011)

I wanted to save space so I only quoted a few words but here is the rest of your post. 



Linuss said:


> *Sigh*
> 
> 
> Yet one more reason why I despise journalists...
> ...



It was a female who pulled the man from the water and you don't know if she was one of the journalists writing one of the articles.

The man was also not threading water the whole time and in the last few minutes until the woman swam out to him, he was floating and unconscious. 

That "damn guy" is still a person and became a patient of the FD. It would be disheartening if they believed their patient was just some "damn guy".  That would give the bystanders a reason for doubt.


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## Shishkabob (Jun 2, 2011)

I had a whole response laid out, but I'll ask you a simple question, Journey:



You get called to an apparent suicidal patient.  You find them slitting their wrists with a blade.  Do you charge in and save the day or do you hold back?




How is this situation any different?


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## Journey (Jun 2, 2011)

Linuss said:


> I had a whole response laid out, but I'll ask you a simple question, Journey:
> 
> 
> You get called to an apparent suicidal patient.  You find them slitting their wrists with a blade.  Do you charge in and save the day or do you hold back?
> ...



You seem to miss the whole point of my posts and that of some of the journalists.  

No one is faulting the FFs for not rushing into the water. They are finding fault for the battles between the unions, FDs, PDs, city and all the legal battles for no longer having this service but more pay and benefits are being given for less services.  Alameda is an island. Do you not see anything wrong with not having some ability to rescue people from the water? They had this service and now they don't but not for the reasons one would think. Regardless of your lack of interest in patients like that "damn guy", some in the Alameda FD would like to be able to help and would like to have that ability back. 


There should have been some system in place to do the rescue once the threat was over such as in this case when he became unconscious. But then for your example, I seriously doubt if you would do anything for that "damn patient" either once they lost consciousness. 

What I am finding fault with you is that you consistently blame  the patients for everything and seem to lack any understanding or compassion of diseases including that of mental illness. The fact that you demean patients with comments like "damn guy" and don't see him as a human being is just another example of your overall attitude.  I am glad you are not a FF in Alameda since that would put a whole different spin on the public's opinion for their situation. The residents of a community should be more than just that "damn guy".  Even if you are not able to do a rescue, you should not be calling the patient names especially in such a hopeless and helpless situation. While suicide is sometimes known as a selfish act, it doesn't relieve the grieving of the family to know the FD/EMS providers are thinking the patient is not worth saving even if there was a way.


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## Aerin-Sol (Jun 2, 2011)

you are reading way, way, way too much into a two-word phrase


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## Shishkabob (Jun 2, 2011)

I'm going to ignore all your attempted personal attacks that you always do, and go back to the situation at hand:




Journey said:


> What I am finding fault with you is that you consistently blame  the patients for everything




You never answered my question:  Suicidal patient, razors, wrist slitting, would you charge in or hold back?


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## Journey (Jun 2, 2011)

Linuss said:


> Wait, it's not the patients fault he intentionally walked in to chilling water, stood neck deep for a length of time, treaded water for a bit, then let himself succumb to drowning because he wanted to commit suicide?  Hmph.



As I said, you have no understanding of disease processes and mental illness. Do you have any idea of what it takes for a person to do that or do you even care? 




Linuss said:


> But you never answered my question:  Suicidal patient, razors, wrist slitting, would you charge in or hold back?



I answered it in that post.



> But then for your example, I seriously doubt if you would do anything for that "damn patient" either once they lost consciousness.



I also stated no one is finding fault with the FFs but rather with the way they no longer have the equipment and training available.

I guess you want me to pass on your comments to the step mother of that "damn guy" and your opinions to the citizens of Alameda in the next issue of the local paper. But, I will also make it clear YOU are just the spokeperson for EMTlife and not for the professional FFs and Paramedics who would rather find ways to help the patients and people they serve.


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## Shishkabob (Jun 2, 2011)

Journey said:


> As I said, you have no understanding of disease processes and mental illness. Do you have any idea of what it takes for a person to do that or do you even care?



And the personal attacks continue from some lady who has no clue who I am, what I do, and what I do or do not know.


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## Journey (Jun 2, 2011)

Linuss said:


> And the personal attacks continue from some lady who has no clue who I am, what I do, and what I do or do not know.
> 
> 
> Nice.



The personal attacks are coming from you against a patient you do not know.  

 Again, it is not always all about you.


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## firetender (Jun 2, 2011)

Okay, kids, you've made it clear you're not too happy with each others' attitudes. Now, try to learn something by making room for other reflections.

Thanks in advance


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## Journey (Jun 2, 2011)

firetender said:


> Okay, kids, you've made it clear you're not too happy with each others' attitudes. Now, try to learn something by making room for other reflections.
> 
> Thanks in advance



Even though this is an anonymous forum, some discretion should be used before calling a patient "damn guy" and criticizing something at least one here may have very little knowledge about. You never know when that "damn guy" might  be a neighbor, friend or family member of someone reading this very public forum.  I realize Linuss is only the spokesperson for EMTlife and not all of EMS but some of this bashing of the patients does not represent EMS or EMTlife any better than his *** wiping comments about nurses. 

It is perfectly okay to critique the overall rescue or discuss what you might have done.  But again, the FFs in Alameda were not criticized or at least not by those of us here in Alameda that have some understanding of the events that have come about over the past two years and know those involved in this unfortunate and tragic incident.

Just be mindful of who your audience might be and that is is not a closed forum. Perhaps it should become a closed forum so others in EMS are not viewed to hold the same negative opinions about patients and other professionals as a few on this forum.


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## ffemt8978 (Jun 2, 2011)

And that's enough of this one.


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