# Polygraph Testing



## Chief Complaint (Jun 19, 2011)

Not sure how common Polygraph testing is among agencies across the nation, but its part of the hiring process in every county near me.  Just looking for some insight as to what i should expect.  Unfortunately, i have a fairly extensive drug experimentation history, and i have been asked to explain all of this as part of the application process.  My answers will be verified on a polygraph test should i make it to that stage of hiring.

The easy answer is obvsiouly, just tell the truth, but im afraid that i may be disqualified based on my history.  Id hate to lie on the test but i fear that honesty may not be the best policy in this case.  In your opinions, should i be completely forthcoming in answering these questions?  Or do you think i should maybe leave some information out?  Ive never used any injectable drugs, but ive experimented with just about everything else.  Most was over 10 years ago but i was a pretty regular pot smoker up until about 2 years ago.

Any advice is appreciated.


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## medichopeful (Jun 19, 2011)

Chief Complaint said:


> Not sure how common Polygraph testing is among agencies across the nation, but its part of the hiring process in every county near me.  Just looking for some insight as to what i should expect.  Unfortunately, i have a fairly extensive drug experimentation history, and i have been asked to explain all of this as part of the application process.  My answers will be verified on a polygraph test should i make it to that stage of hiring.
> 
> The easy answer is obvsiouly, just tell the truth, but im afraid that i may be disqualified based on my history.  Id hate to lie on the test but i fear that honesty may not be the best policy in this case.  In your opinions, should i be completely forthcoming in answering these questions?  Or do you think i should maybe leave some information out?  Ive never used any injectable drugs, but ive experimented with just about everything else.  Most was over 10 years ago but i was a pretty regular pot smoker up until about 2 years ago.
> 
> Any advice is appreciated.



What agency are you looking at? PM me if you're more comfortable


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## HotelCo (Jun 20, 2011)

medichopeful said:


> What agency are you looking at? PM me if you're more comfortable



Or just post three agencies, with two being decoys. :lol: 

Just be up front about it. Are you a meth head right now? No? Then you're fine. Honesty goes a long way during a job interview. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lifeguards For Life (Jun 20, 2011)

I would be honest


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## medichopeful (Jun 20, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> Or just post three agencies, with two being decoys. :lol:
> 
> Just be up front about it. Are you a meth head right now? No? Then you're fine. Honesty goes a long way during a job interview.
> 
> ...



Ahh, reminds me of the "2 truths and a lie" game :lol:


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## i5adam8 (Jun 20, 2011)

I can't believe these agencies are actually using Polygraph testing for hiring purposes. It has been proven that these kinds of "lie detector" tests are completely unreliable and CAN be beaten. There is a reason they are not upheld in a court of law.


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## Lifeguards For Life (Jun 20, 2011)

i5adam8 said:


> I can't believe these agencies are actually using Polygraph testing for hiring purposes. .



I can. It's EMS. 

"EMS: 100-something years or tradition unimpeded by progress"

Polygraph testing is the least of the worrisome outdated shenanigans from the stone age that EMS clings too


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## fortsmithman (Jun 20, 2011)

i5adam8 said:


> I can't believe these agencies are actually using Polygraph testing for hiring purposes. It has been proven that these kinds of "lie detector" tests are completely unreliable and CAN be beaten. There is a reason they are not upheld in a court of law.



I just did a quick internet search on this subjesct and copied and pasted the following from http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/admissability-of-polygraph-tests-in-court.html


What are the State Laws Concerning Polygraph Admissibility?
Almost every state fits into one of two categories; those that find them completely inadmissible and those that allow their admission with "the stipulations of both parties" (meaning both you and the prosecutor agree to admit the test results as evidence).  

States like California, Arizona, Nevada, Georgia, and Florida allow the tests if everyone agrees to them, but may put different emphasis on the tests accuracy.  


California, for instance, presents the results to the jury, and allows them to draw whatever inferences from it they wish.  
Georgia, on the other hand, allows defendants who suffer damage because of a false result on a polygraph test (which are somewhat frequent) to sue the polygraph operator for damages and attorneys fees. 
Florida is the one state that does require some people to submit to polygraph tests (previously convicted sex offenders), but even then those test results cannot be used against them in court, and are for use only within the course of their therapy.  

The states in which polygraphs are inadmissible include New York, Texas, Illinois, Pennsylvania, and the District of Columbia.  In these states, even if both parties wish to enter polygraph test results into evidence, it is forbidden (except in very rare scenarios). 

Some states, like New York and Texas, forbid their use completely in all employment and law enforcement contexts. 
Other states, like Massechussettes, do not allow them to be entered as evidence, but CAN use them as supporting probable cause (to obtain search warrants).

So as you can see polygraphs may be admitted into evidence under certain conditions.


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## Aprz (Jun 20, 2011)

Be honest.


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## akflightmedic (Jun 20, 2011)

Polygraphs and Voice stress analyzer (VSA) are very common in fire departments in Florida. Unfortunately they are completely legal despite their inaccuracy as the results are interpreted by the polygrapher...talk about a subjective test! He could just be having a bad day...

There are some very long and very informative threads about this very topic on firehouse.com. I do not typically reroute traffic to another site but this is where you are going to find YEARS worth of threads and experiences on this very topic.


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## Chief Complaint (Jun 20, 2011)

medichopeful said:


> What agency are you looking at? PM me if you're more comfortable



Im not all that comfortable giving the name, ill just say that its a county in Northern VA.



HotelCo said:


> Just be up front about it. Are you a meth head right now? No? Then you're fine. Honesty goes a long way during a job interview.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I would feel much more comfortable being honest, trust me i would.  But im afraid that some of my past drug use will result in automatic disqualification from their hiring process.  Ive never used meth though, lol.

Its not uncommon for county's to disqualify people for certain drugs around here, hallucinogens being one of them.  Those are really the drugs im worried about.  Im sure they understand that many people applying for a job with them have used marijuana and are willing to work around that, but im afraid that they wont be so understanding about "hard" drugs.



akflightmedic said:


> Polygraphs and Voice stress analyzer (VSA) are very common in fire departments in Florida. Unfortunately they are completely legal despite their inaccuracy as the results are interpreted by the polygrapher...talk about a subjective test! He could just be having a bad day...
> 
> There are some very long and very informative threads about this very topic on firehouse.com. I do not typically reroute traffic to another site but this is where you are going to find YEARS worth of threads and experiences on this very topic.



Thanks for the link, im heading over there right now.


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## EMT-Tony (Jun 20, 2011)

Never have heard of polys used in EMS yet, I had to go through some in firefighting stuff tho.  

I saw on The Shield once they all took some vicodines and if you re-word the question in your head to make your yes or no be what they want you can beat it haha


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## dstevens58 (Jun 20, 2011)

I believe that above all else, they're looking for an honest person.

I was a little anxious about experimental drug use when I was young/foolish back in the 70's.  I expressed my concerns regarding this to the polygraph examiner and he "modified" his question from have you "ever" to have you, in the last xx years" used drugs.

I passed and went on to enjoy a twenty year career in law enforcement, both as a civilian employee and behind the badge.


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## IAems (Jun 20, 2011)

*Lying never works*

If you lie, you will probably get caught and that will stay on record.  Good luck finding a job with a good department after that.  If your honest, maybe this department likes you, maybe it doesn't, but there's always the next one.  However, these lie detectors are based of a giant list of questions you've _already_ answered during background examination (if this is any sort of reputable department).  The polygraph examiner asks you questions to confirm what _you_ previously stated during the background examination.  Furthermore, for any department you apply to in the future, they can and will collect your previous answers to any previous background questions for any previous agencies and compare them (so let's hope you're really good at remembering your lie).  If you're caught lying than you're busted, and other departments in the future will probably know why you didn't get the job.  But every department has different standards.  I know LAPD won't accept you if you have used a stimulant, even once, but they don't really care about marijuana.  I know Los Angeles Sheriff Department doesn't care about stimulant use experimentation in the past, but won't accept a "trend" of hallucinogenic use.  Some departments, like some things; some departments like other things.  It all depends.  I'll tell you this.  If you completed the background packet with the drug use questions and you were honest and they moved you on to the polygraph section, you've really got nothing to worry about if you tell the truth.


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## nwhitney (Jun 20, 2011)

Chief Complaint said:


> Not sure how common Polygraph testing is among agencies across the nation, but its part of the hiring process in every county near me.  Just looking for some insight as to what i should expect.  Unfortunately, i have a fairly extensive drug experimentation history, and i have been asked to explain all of this as part of the application process.  My answers will be verified on a polygraph test should i make it to that stage of hiring.
> 
> The easy answer is obvsiouly, just tell the truth, but im afraid that i may be disqualified based on my history.  Id hate to lie on the test but i fear that honesty may not be the best policy in this case.  In your opinions, should i be completely forthcoming in answering these questions?  Or do you think i should maybe leave some information out?  Ive never used any injectable drugs, but ive experimented with just about everything else.  Most was over 10 years ago but i was a pretty regular pot smoker up until about 2 years ago.
> 
> Any advice is appreciated.



I'm not a fan of polygraph test for all the reasons others have listed.  With that being said you know the right thing to do is to be honest.  If you omit (which is considered lying) and later on down the road they find out the truth your career is done, maybe lose your cert., and would have a hell of a time getting hired elsewhere.  Is it worth it?  You're the only one that can answer that.


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## firetender (Jun 20, 2011)

*Don't lie; walk.*

My personal take is that I'd be highly unlikely to want to work for anyone who submits me to a polygraph test. Besides their inaccuracies, *requiring that test implies distrust of you, therefore ALL employees, from the bat. T*he employer makes it clear it is willing to put you under undue pressure now and in the future. This degree of scrutiny is nothing but letting you know you're subservient to the Man.


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## Chief Complaint (Jun 20, 2011)

IAems said:


> If you lie, you will probably get caught and that will stay on record.  Good luck finding a job with a good department after that.  If your honest, maybe this department likes you, maybe it doesn't, but there's always the next one.  However, these lie detectors are based of a giant list of questions you've _already_ answered during background examination (if this is any sort of reputable department).  The polygraph examiner asks you questions to confirm what _you_ previously stated during the background examination.  Furthermore, for any department you apply to in the future, they can and will collect your previous answers to any previous background questions for any previous agencies and compare them (so let's hope you're really good at remembering your lie).  If you're caught lying than you're busted, and other departments in the future will probably know why you didn't get the job.  But every department has different standards.  I know LAPD won't accept you if you have used a stimulant, even once, but they don't really care about marijuana.  I know Los Angeles Sheriff Department doesn't care about stimulant use experimentation in the past, but won't accept a "trend" of hallucinogenic use.  Some departments, like some things; some departments like other things.  It all depends.  I'll tell you this.  *If you completed the background packet with the drug use questions and you were honest and they moved you on to the polygraph section, you've really got nothing to worry about if you tell the truth.*



Im filling out my personal history packet right now, just hoping that i make it to the next level in the hiring process and eventually the polygraph exam.



firetender said:


> My personal take is that I'd be highly unlikely to want to work for anyone who submits me to a polygraph test. Besides their inaccuracies, *requiring that test implies distrust of you, therefore ALL employees, from the bat. T*he employer makes it clear it is willing to put you under undue pressure now and in the future. This degree of scrutiny is nothing but letting you know you're subservient to the Man.



Unfortunately, its the norm around here.  There is only 1 county in the area that does not require a polygraph exam as part of the hiring process (they arent accepting applications right now).


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## zzyzx (Jun 20, 2011)

Don't worry about it. The polygraph test really does not work as claimed. That is, it cannot detect lies. It's real purpose is to make the person being interrogated believe that the interrogator has the ability to basically read their mind. This gives the interrogator a psychological advantage over the person being interrogated. You should research this (i.e., Google ) yourself and you'll see what I mean.

A lot of people have experimented with drugs when they were younger. As long as you don't have a drug or alcohol problem, I don't believe that that should disqualify you from work in EMS or fire. 

However, if you admit to having done "hard drugs" in the past, that is an automatic disqualification for most departments. Contrary to what some other people have been telling you, it may be in your best interest to lie. However, you should be honest with yourself, and if you really do have or have had a drug or alcohol problem, not just experimentation in the past, then you really may not be suited for this type of work.


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## Chief Complaint (Jun 20, 2011)

zzyzx said:


> Don't worry about it. The polygraph test really does not work as claimed. That is, it cannot detect lies. It's real purpose is to make the person being interrogated believe that the interrogator has the ability to basically read their mind. This gives the interrogator a psychological advantage over the person being interrogated. You should research this (i.e., Google ) yourself and you'll see what I mean.
> 
> A lot of people have experimented with drugs when they were younger. As long as you don't have a drug or alcohol problem, I don't believe that that should disqualify you from work in EMS or fire.
> 
> However, if you admit to having done "hard drugs" in the past, that is an automatic disqualification for most departments. Contrary to what some other people have been telling you, it may be in your best interest to lie. However, you should be honest with yourself, and if you really do have or have had a drug or alcohol problem, not just experimentation in the past, then you really may not be suited for this type of work.



I have done a fair amount of Google searching over the last week and found that many people feel the same as you do.  Its a cruddy way to eliminate people from the hiring process, but it is what it is, and is certainly common with every county except one around here.

I definitely do not have a drug problem, or anything close to it, just more use than the average person over the years.  I was never addicted to any hard drugs, but certainly did my fair share of experimentation/recreational use.  Its been a long time for most (7-10 years), excluding marijuana which wasnt too far in the past.


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## medicdan (Jun 20, 2011)

I'm not going to list the links, but it might be worth it to do a search of "polygraph" on this  forum-- there have been good discussions in the past.
One of the things I do know on a federal level is that polygraphs are NO LONGER admissible in court, and CANNOT be used for pre-employment screening, absent of a few federal agencies. Significant scientific research has demonstrated they DO NOT WORK, are easily manipulated and function off of the examiner scaring you into believing it all works.


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## Chief Complaint (Jun 20, 2011)

emt.dan said:


> I'm not going to list the links, but it might be worth it to do a search of "polygraph" on this  forum-- there have been good discussions in the past.
> One of the things I do know on a federal level is that polygraphs are NO LONGER admissible in court, and CANNOT be used for pre-employment screening, absent of a few federal agencies. Significant scientific research has demonstrated they DO NOT WORK, are easily manipulated and function off of the examiner scaring you into believing it all works.



I found some good threads on this site as well as other message boards, thanks.

It is indeed a shame that polygraph testing is still used to disqualify potential employees even though it is not considered to be an accurate form of testing (not admissible in court), but its an issue that i will have to deal with since i live in an area of the country that doesnt feel that way.

I, and many others, have skeletons in our closets that apparently will be held against us forever.  *Nobody to blame but myself*, but stupid decisions are often made by young people.  I understand disqualifying people based on a criminal record, but thats not my issue.

After re reading some of the application documents and posts in some online discussion forums, it pains me to say this, but i just cant be 100% truthful and expect to get a job around here.  Although most of my drug use occured a decade or longer ago, some of the drugs i experimented with will likely be automatic disqualifiers.  

Id be crazy to think that a county would hire me if they knew the full extent of my drug history.  I have no problem admitting to some minor recreational use of 1 or 2 drugs, but i dont think it would be wise to disclose all information and expect to be seriously considered for a job.


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## nwhitney (Jun 21, 2011)

Chief Complaint said:


> but i just cant be 100% truthful and expect to get a job around here.



I really hope you reconsider.


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## lightsandsirens5 (Jun 21, 2011)

nwhitney said:


> I really hope you reconsider.



I second that. 

I strongly suggest you be not just 100% honest, but 110% honest. Be above reproach. Look at it this way, would you rather tell them up front and not get hired, or not tell them, let them hire you, then get FIRED later on for lying in your interview? Good luck getting another job then. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS TELL THE TRUTH!!!! 

If you start here, where do you stop? What is to stop you from lying on PCRs if you lie on your interview? Guess what? That'll get your behind dragged into court. What happens when you forget something in your care (which you WILL) and yet you write in your report you did it anyhow. Well, the doc thinks you did xyz, so he doesn't do it and the pt ends up dying. 

Don't start it man! It is a long slippery slope to destruction. I don't mean to sound fatalist or overly dramatic, but I've seen it happen to people. Guess where is often starts? On applications and in interviews. 

Please please please don't lie. It'll only end up hurting you in the end.


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## Chief Complaint (Jun 21, 2011)

nwhitney said:


> I really hope you reconsider.





lightsandsirens5 said:


> I second that.
> 
> I strongly suggest you be not just 100% honest, but 110% honest. Be above reproach. Look at it this way, would you rather tell them up front and not get hired, or not tell them, let them hire you, then get FIRED later on for lying in your interview? Good luck getting another job then. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS TELL THE TRUTH!!!!
> 
> ...



Thanks for the kind words.  When i made this thread i was fully expecting to be scolded and run out of here.  So far people have been pretty understanding and nice.

I keep going back and forth, and now im back to just being up front on my PHS/poly.  Lying just isnt my thing and its not how id like to start things out with this county.  It would also feel very good to have nothing to worry about come polygraph time (if i make it that far).


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## EMDispatch (Jun 21, 2011)

Anymore the point of the polygraph is often just a deterrent for "unsatisfactory" employees and foreign operatives. While employers pay attention to the answers and how truthful you are. Good employers and agencies understand that people  get nervous and that can lead to some problems. In my experiences outside of the EMS community they will let you retest if there are issues, even in jobs where the polygraph examine is part of necessary clearances.


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## firetender (Jun 21, 2011)

The whole idea of the polygraph is to catch you in a lie. Why help them? 

Be honest and let the pieces fall where they may. If you don't fully accept the truth that you made some dumb-butt choices in the past, no one else will be inclined to help you move forward.


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## zzyzx (Jun 21, 2011)

Most fire departments will not hire you if you admit to having done "hard drugs" even one time, such as having taken mushrooms once twenty years ago. Dont go into a background interview being naive about this.

Have any of you guys ever gotten behind the wheel when you were up all night on a busy shift? If you were being interviewed and you knew that admitting to having done that even once would immediately disqualify you, would you tell the truth?


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## Chief Complaint (Jun 22, 2011)

firetender said:


> The whole idea of the polygraph is to catch you in a lie. Why help them?
> 
> Be honest and let the pieces fall where they may. If you don't fully accept the truth that you made some dumb-butt choices in the past, no one else will be inclined to help you move forward.



But what if being honest will surely cross me off the list for a potential hire?  Im positive that some of the drugs i experimented with waaaay back in the day are automatic disqualifiers.  

Ive always been an honest fellow, but also a guy who made many mistakes as a youth.  Its really depressing to think that something i did as a youth will affect my career goals for the rest of my life.



zzyzx said:


> Most fire departments will not hire you if you admit to having done "hard drugs" even one time, such as having taken mushrooms once twenty years ago. Dont go into a background interview being naive about this.
> 
> Have any of you guys ever gotten behind the wheel when you were up all night on a busy shift? If you were being interviewed and you knew that admitting to having done that even once would immediately disqualify you, would you tell the truth?



Unfortunately the county's near me feel this way.  As far as i know, ANY hallucinogen use is an automatic disqualifier, doesnt matter how many years ago it was.

Its a "damned if i do, damned if i dont" situation.  If im completely honest, i wont even make it to the polygraph portion of the hiring process.  If i lie, i risk being caught in the lie and wont be considered for the job anyway.

Anybody have a time machine i could borrow?


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## nwhitney (Jun 22, 2011)

Chief Complaint said:


> But what if being honest will surely cross me off the list for a potential hire?  Im positive that some of the drugs i experimented with waaaay back in the day are automatic disqualifiers.
> 
> Ive always been an honest fellow, but also a guy who made many mistakes as a youth.  Its really depressing to think that something i did as a youth will affect my career goals for the rest of my life.
> 
> ...



If you aren't honest and you "pass" the polygraph and get hired then I guarantee that you will always be wondering if this is the day they find out and I get fired.  Any time you get called into your supervisors office you'll wonder if they know.  Wouldn't you rather be honest with them and yourself and not have to wonder "oh God did they find out"?

Polygraphs suck and I don't think they should be used but the reality is they are.  If you want to be a medic with this agency then you have to be willing to jump through their hoops.  Ask yourself, "do I really not know what to do or do I just want someone to tell me it's okay to lie?"  You know what the right thing to do is.


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## Chief Complaint (Oct 2, 2011)

Just an update.

I took the poly for one of the departments i have applied with, interesting experience to say the least.  

I was 100% honest but was told by the examiner that i "spiked" on just about every question, excluding the control questions.  I found that to be odd.


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## zzyzx (Oct 2, 2011)

Not sure if that's good or bad according to them, but I hope things work out for you.


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## Chief Complaint (Oct 2, 2011)

zzyzx said:


> Not sure if that's good or bad according to them, but I hope things work out for you.



Gracias.

Not sure how they handle things from here on out with the hiring process.  Im assuming that i will receive something in the mail from them shortly.  Hopefully i can at least go in and meet with the Chief to talk about my results.


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## EMTStudent02 (Oct 22, 2017)

Chief Complaint said:


> Not sure how common Polygraph testing is among agencies across the nation, but its part of the hiring process in every county near me.  Just looking for some insight as to what i should expect.  Unfortunately, i have a fairly extensive drug experimentation history, and i have been asked to explain all of this as part of the application process.  My answers will be verified on a polygraph test should i make it to that stage of hiring.
> 
> The easy answer is obvsiouly, just tell the truth, but im afraid that i may be disqualified based on my history.  Id hate to lie on the test but i fear that honesty may not be the best policy in this case.  In your opinions, should i be completely forthcoming in answering these questions?  Or do you think i should maybe leave some information out?  Ive never used any injectable drugs, but ive experimented with just about everything else.  Most was over 10 years ago but i was a pretty regular pot smoker up until about 2 years ago.
> 
> Any advice is appreciated.


In the end, how did everything go for you?


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## hometownmedic5 (Oct 22, 2017)

In massachusetts, it is illegal to use a polygraph for employment purposes. Evidence in a criminal case is another matter, but never for a job.

To lie or not to lie, that is the eternal question. Some agencies have a strict no tolerance policy from genesis to yesterday. In that case, if you know that, you either decide to lie or toss the application in the bin. There is no third direction. For less strict agencies, you've got something of a pickle. Some recognize that the likelihood of making it to adulthood in this country without at least trying something illegal once is pretty low. Not impossible, but on the lower end of probability, so their goal is really to see who's going to be honest about it. Naturally, they'd like to identify and eliminate habitual users from consideration as well, so theres that benefit. 

Ultimately the choice is yours. Is the job important enough to carry around a lie(nibbling into the venue of perjury) forever? Can you actually hope to lie effectively enough to be successful?


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## akflightmedic (Oct 23, 2017)

6 year revival!! Woot Woot!


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## KnightRider (Oct 31, 2017)

Polygraph tests should not be used for employment purposes. They are just plain crap. I had to lie to help the examiner calibrate it. Then he asked me the same questions..lol. I remember one BS question. "Have you ever stolen from an employer?" Of course my answer was no. He then clarified, "not even a pen?" Ok then, yes. Waste of time. Then AFTER I got the job, a Supervisor came to me and said one of my answers showed a slight deception and had to sign next to it to verify it was in fact the truth and the test was wrong. Stupid!


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## SandpitMedic (Nov 4, 2017)

akflightmedic said:


> 6 year revival!! Woot Woot!


Almost exactly 6 years.
6 years and 20 days.

Is that a record?


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## akflightmedic (Nov 4, 2017)

Sadly in every way....we have had longer resus cases....


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