# Are most EMS personnel THIS unprofessional?



## zaboomafoozarg (Oct 20, 2009)

I recently completed my ride-along time for my EMT-B class. My knowledge is not that expansive, I will readily admit, (even though I am at the top of my class ^_^) but I was still absolutely shocked to see how the "real" medics behave.

Just to clarify, this is not a rant in any way, because I still had a good time: I just want to know if this is what I get to look forward to for the rest of my career. :wacko:

For starters, these folks' vocabulary appeared to consist only of the necessary medical terms, a few verbs, and primarily the F word. 

Every other word, pretty much. Then, of course, there are the conversations. Horrible. Laughing, joking, and even just talking about absolutely inappropriate matters. You know what I mean. 

Then there's the attitude. I got a sampling of more whiny drama, gossip, and downright nastiness in 6 hours in that EMS station than one should normally expect in... oh, I don't know, a month! This includes your typical backbiting sessions, and one woman becoming extremely angry and yelling because the kitchen was dirty and then basically stomping around from that point on. (Yes, I was hoping and praying for a call to come in so I could get out of there h34r: )

The standard professional behavior one would expect from trained medical personnel was nonexistent. This includes insulting the 96 year old verbally-responsive patient right beside her in the ambulance... "She BLEEPing reeks!" and ranting about how much of a %&*( @!)% )$(! ^&%* idiot her primary caregiver is because she was reluctant to send the DNR with them in the fear that it might get lost. Then relating the entire thing to the hospital staff as he wheeled her in on the cot, all the while ignoring the actual patient. :sad: Another squad exhibited the same type of behavior when we pulled up to a trailer park. The scorn was just seething from them.

Not only this, but the EMT/Patient communication one is taught in class to use was not displayed at all. Not once throughout the day did any of the medics I saw introduce themselves properly, ask consent to treat, or even really talk to the patient as a human being. If any actual addressing was done, it was in the form of, "Hun," "Old girl," or simply implied, "you." Then the patients just had to sit on the cot in the ambulance while the medics worked on them in virtual silence (save for the two standard questions, "how old are you? are you allergic to anything") all the way to the hospital. No reassuring, no explanation of procedures and treatment as administered.


And then, to top it off, the level of care seemed downright unprofessional even to my own inexperienced eyes. Not once did any of the shortness of breath or difficulty breathing calls receiving anything more than 3-4 liters of O2 via Nasal Cannula. What happened to the non-rebreathers that are supposed to be used? One woman who could hardly breathe and speak only 1 word per sentence was forced to walk to and climb into the ambulance by herself. A patient who fell and had severe left shoulder pain was mercilessly jostled by the medics manning the stretcher. Trust me, they could have been far more gentle.

These are just some of the things that took place, and let me tell you, it was not what I expected! :unsure:

I don't believe I saw even one good example during the entire time period.

So that's why I make this post here. Is this really the way things are? I understand the job can be stressful but come on, the people with whom I was acquainted there wouldn't have been able to hold a job as a gas station attendant acting like they did, let alone medical professionals. And I wouldn't be so concerned, except I saw the same thing in *every case* If this is the norm, then I guess I'm in for a fun ride. :excl:


Your thoughts and input be much appreciated.


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## Onceamedic (Oct 20, 2009)

Absolutely, totally and completely is NOT the norm.  I would not tolerate anything less than a professional attitude on the ambulance and take exception to those that demonstrate lack of compassion, or are judgmental.  

As far as conversations and behavior in the station - yes, there are the profanities and the "inappropriate" conversation occasionally.  However, if anyone behaves like the woman you describe over the kitchen - well it just wouldn't happen.  Kitchen cleanup is one of assigned PM duties and the crews enforce the completion of same amongst themselves.  If a crew is on a transfer and unable to perform PM duties, others pitch in and get it done.

It sounds to me like you are with an agency/shift very far on the continuum of what is "typical" behavior.  EMS varies company to company, area to area.

Just look at the variety of posts on this forum.  They range from the illiterate and ill informed to amazing demonstrations of competence, maturity and commitment.

Do not allow these people to color your entire view of the industry, and if you can, find someplace else to get your ride time.


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## Shishkabob (Oct 20, 2009)

Couple of things I'll comment on real fast:

the "innappropiate" humor is a part of EMS, and medicine in general, for better or worse.  Google "Gallows humor" and you'll understand why. 


As for the sob getting an NC instead of a NRB, as you hopefully continue on in your career and get higher education, and more tools to use, you'll realize very few people get the EMT-student blanket treatment of "15lpm NRB", sob or not.


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## exodus (Oct 20, 2009)

Speak to some of the superiors at your school and let them know what happened on the ride-along and they should know how to follow up with it. And you can probably request another ride-along with someone else too..


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## Foxbat (Oct 20, 2009)

zaboomafoozarg said:


> Is this really the way things are?


Some of them are.
Dark and/or politically incorrect humor, profanities and gossip are very common in EMS. As far of the use of NC instead of NRB, it depends on the situation.
The way they talked to pts. sounds very inappropriate and not typical. Making pt. who had difficulty breathing to walk and climb into ambulance definitely does not sound right.
I would find a different place to do ride-alongs...


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## mycrofft (Oct 20, 2009)

*zaboomafoozgard, what do YOU think?*

Gresham's Law as applies to EMS: crummy attitudes drive off good ones.


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## Luno (Oct 20, 2009)

*Hmmmm....*

Your thoughts and input be much appreciated.[/QUOTE]

Wow, sounds like you got your eyes opened to the good, the bad, and the absurd of the profession.  So we'll just handle this piece by piece...



> For starters, these folks' vocabulary appeared to consist only of the necessary medical terms, a few verbs, and primarily the F word.
> 
> Every other word, pretty much. Then, of course, there are the conversations. Horrible. Laughing, joking, and even just talking about absolutely inappropriate matters. You know what I mean.



This should of been curtailed especially with a rider, however, if there were ever a microphone in my rig while it's just me and my partner the conversation would probably be similar.  Understand that you are an outsider looking in.  In our station, there's the young kid, the gay guy (not actually homosexual), the old guy (me) and another guy named after a cartoon character.  The topics range from jokes about kids vs cars and SIDS (coping mechanisms through humor) to evaluating cardiac arrythmias and or symptoms from previous calls that our crew or the other crew can't figure out.  The key is that it is a closed society with it's given rules accepted by all members of the society.  You were an outsider, and they probably should of censored themselves accordingly.  The topics of discussion aren't really yours to critique as you have no bearing or reference to the appropriateness in a closed society, so take that advice for what you paid for it.  And yes, absolutely inappropriate things are discussed, and often laughed at.  I'd also be cautious, as I've seen crews exaggerate things and do things to make someone feel uncomfortable... i.e. you...



> Then there's the attitude. I got a sampling of more whiny drama, gossip, and downright nastiness in 6 hours in that EMS station than one should normally expect in... oh, I don't know, a month! This includes your typical backbiting sessions, and one woman becoming extremely angry and yelling because the kitchen was dirty and then basically stomping around from that point on. (Yes, I was hoping and praying for a call to come in so I could get out of there h34r: )



This will happen with any crew that you live with, it happens in the military, it happens in the private sector, it even happens in the public sector, gossip and interpersonal conflicts will happen, and need to be dealt with.  Yes, occasionally people explode.  The upside is these circumstances rarely last, as you can only live with conflict for so long... 



> The standard professional behavior one would expect from trained medical personnel was nonexistent. This includes insulting the 96 year old verbally-responsive patient right beside her in the ambulance... "She BLEEPing reeks!" and ranting about how much of a %&*( @!)% )$(! ^&%* idiot her primary caregiver is because she was reluctant to send the DNR with them in the fear that it might get lost. Then relating the entire thing to the hospital staff as he wheeled her in on the cot, all the while ignoring the actual patient. :sad: Another squad exhibited the same type of behavior when we pulled up to a trailer park. The scorn was just seething from them.
> 
> Not only this, but the EMT/Patient communication one is taught in class to use was not displayed at all. Not once throughout the day did any of the medics I saw introduce themselves properly, ask consent to treat, or even really talk to the patient as a human being. If any actual addressing was done, it was in the form of, "Hun," "Old girl," or simply implied, "you." Then the patients just had to sit on the cot in the ambulance while the medics worked on them in virtual silence (save for the two standard questions, "how old are you? are you allergic to anything") all the way to the hospital. No reassuring, no explanation of procedures and treatment as administered.



The standard of care including the treatment of a patient is absolutely unacceptable, and is not standard.  This kind of behavior needs to be corrected.  EMT/Patient communication as taught is subjective at best.  I've use "hun," "sweetie," "bud," "boss," "chief," and probably several others that are used to calm, reassure, and decrease the emotional distance between the patient and caregiver.  However, it is just a tool in the box to calm and reassure the patient, and sometimes might be inappropriate.  



> And then, to top it off, the level of care seemed downright unprofessional even to my own inexperienced eyes. Not once did any of the shortness of breath or difficulty breathing calls receiving anything more than 3-4 liters of O2 via Nasal Cannula. What happened to the non-rebreathers that are supposed to be used? One woman who could hardly breathe and speak only 1 word per sentence was forced to walk to and climb into the ambulance by herself. A patient who fell and had severe left shoulder pain was mercilessly jostled by the medics manning the stretcher. Trust me, they could have been far more gentle.



I'm going to go out on a limb here, and state that your class hasn't prepared you to critique a practicing medic's calls.  You will learn that you don't treat the book, you treat the patient, and not every SOB needs an NRB.  The patient that had to walk, there may have been mitigating circumstances.  The shoulder pain, there's potentially issues there that could go either way.  I'd guess what I'm saying is that there might be more to the situations then meet your class trained eyes.  When I joined the field, I felt the same way coming out of class, so do I empathize with you.



> So that's why I make this post here. Is this really the way things are? I understand the job can be stressful but come on, the people with whom I was acquainted there wouldn't have been able to hold a job as a gas station attendant acting like they did, let alone medical professionals. And I wouldn't be so concerned, except I saw the same thing in *every case* If this is the norm, then I guess I'm in for a fun ride. :excl:
> These are just some of the things that took place, and let me tell you, it was not what I expected! :unsure:
> 
> I don't believe I saw even one good example during the entire time period.



I guess the only thing I can say about this, is really what do you expect from a profession that requires less education than someone who cuts your hair?  A profession is not built on a 120hr certificate...  That also being said, these aren't the only shocks that you will experience if you decide to enter this field. 

These are just my opinions from 6 years in prehospital medicine...


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## Canoeman (Oct 20, 2009)

I still might encourage you to talk to their bosses. Something tells me this is not the first time that this behavior was presented. Just bad carma all the way around. And no this is not typical. Press on.


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## JonTullos (Oct 20, 2009)

Blue humor is just a part of how things are done sometimes.  While it isn't "nice" it's just there.  Plus some people cope with the stress of EMS and blow off steam by talking about sex or using profanity.  While I choose not to participate, I'd rather they do that than bring an uzi in with them.

As far as how patients were talked to and about, that's totally wrong.  At my services these medics would have lost their jobs post haste.  I'm sorry you had to see that.  Like it or not, though, there are some bad ones out there.  Eventually they'll be caught and have to answer for it.


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## zaboomafoozarg (Oct 20, 2009)

Well this much feedback is certainly nice. Thanks for the interest, everyone. And the advice. Fortunately I only had to do one ride along. And it was mandatory that it be this company. In November some insurance laws are changing and I will attempt to get permission to ride along at a much closer, local, and largely rural service (3 plus's right there) where a couple relatives work (also a plus.) So I'm not overly concerned about one bad experience. I just wanted to know if anyone else had noticed it as a trend in their experience, and I'm glad to see the general consensus is negative. 


Most of what I said is subjective, I realize. Meaning, it wouldn't matter in the slightest to some people. But it's still a patient oriented field... where I would think propriety should be paramount. 


I will clarify one thing: the nasal cannula was put on by the EMT. Medic didn't even say anything. But that might be their protocols, I don't know.



I'm not sure that the education level (I assume you're referring to EMT and not Paramedic too, by the way) has that much to do with it, because... much of what I heard and saw would not be even close to tolerated in a minimum wage entry level position! Let alone a job of this importance. Furthermore, who would you rather have be a compassionate, helpful and, if at all possible, remotely pleasant person of character: your barber or the person responsible for saving your life? But, apparently being an untrained outsider, I do not have the keen eye or educational requirements for spotting blatant indecency.


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## daedalus (Oct 20, 2009)

> Couple of things I'll comment on real fast:
> 
> the "innappropiate" humor is a part of EMS, and medicine in general, for better or worse. Google "Gallows humor" and you'll understand why.
> 
> ...


I agree with Linuss's thoughts. 

Be aware that these paramedics may know something you do not in regards to oxygen therapy. (http://www.bryanbledsoe.com/handouts). Like many things in school, you probably have not gotten the whole truth. 

Also, if you stuck a recorder in my rig you would here some pretty nasty, perverted, and down right strange conversations. While it may have been nice to temper down normal partner communication for the ride along, be aware that some services have to deal with an EMT ride along every week and sometimes they just want to talk to their partners like normal.

BTW, if you think we are strange, try sitting in a police or correctional officer lounge or spend a few minutes in the living room of a fire station. Those guys are horrible. 

Now, in regards to patient communication, I can't judge your preceptors based on second hand information. Just be aware that if you saw something that you wish to do differently when you become and EMT, make a mental note of it. However, you were invited onto the unit as a guest and it is a privilege for you to be there so it is not appropriate for you to challenge the crew or attempt to get them in trouble. 

I hope that you will stay it through and find happiness where ever this field takes you.


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## HotelCo (Oct 20, 2009)

Gallows humor is very common in EMS. That's for around the station, not around patients though.

daedalus: Some of the best laughs I've gotten have been in the PD. Those are some crazy guys. You're right, EMS humor is pretty tame compared to some of their humor.


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## Miss Xina (Oct 20, 2009)

I know what you mean, I was actually told NOT to get too involved with the patients.

The reason for this is because we had a suicidal patient and when we arrived at the hospital, they told us to put her in the room. My team mates left to do other things, but none of the nurses came in to sort out the patient.

I may be new to all of this, but if I am told the patient is suicidal, I am not going to leave him/her alone in an unlocked room with a plastic bag, shoelaces, whatever.

I am a patient advocate and I do not believe in just dumping the patient as soon as we enter the hospital.

Another example was a patient being brought in completely unresponsive to painful stimuli, a head injury that happened a few days previously and NO OXYGEN! When I blatantly asked the crew why there was no o2, they said "this is an alcoholic who comes in every week"

I was not impressed by this response and even more disgusted when the drs found that the patient's blood alcohol level was significantly lower than normal and Cat Scans were performed to check for brain damage.

I know we can't do a whole lot, but I think we should always do what we can to the best of our abilities. I don't know what happened with this patient, but the fact that he was not unconscious because of alcohol intoxication and the crew assumed that was the reason is unacceptable.

If it gets to a point where you can't even be bothered to administer oxygen, you shouldn't be in this job. This is when people die unnecessarily!


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## zaboomafoozarg (Oct 20, 2009)

P.s., another fun tidbit I just remembered is that we didn't even get full vitals on all the patients. On one of them I was told to take a shot at getting the vitals, but I couldn't get an accurate blood pressure (not good at that yet, plus the lady's sleeve could not be rolled up enough) and informed the EMT that I was unable to, and asked him if he could do it on this patient. He responded, "Nah, whatever" and promptly slid her out of the ambulance and took her into the hospital. -- And on another squad, The EMT-Intermediate reported the vitals en route to the hospital, but forgot to take a pulse ox reading, and when the hospital asked for it after she was done reporting, she said a less than pleasant word off the mic and ignored the question.



			
				Daedalus said:
			
		

> However, you were invited onto the unit as a guest and it is a privilege for you to be there so it is not appropriate for you to challenge the crew or attempt to get them in trouble.


*
Not exactly true. I paid good tuition to get some hands on training. A scheduled ride-along was one of the learning tools that I paid to receive, and I expected the best from it. *

I am not attempting to get anyone in to trouble at all. Just posting about my experience.




But this job, as with any job, involves some doggone common sense too. If you see a defense attorney standing there and badmouthing his client, are you going to say, "You know what, I have no right to critique his actions because I personally am not a lawyer, just a mere guest in the court room."? I think the answer to that is kind of obvious


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## mct601 (Oct 20, 2009)

As everyone has said, the style of humor you encountered is typical in EMS/medicine, and gets worse in fire (at least around here) and PD settings. Hell, in my EMT class there are two firefighters that talk about playing pranks on the local police officers, and getting tazed as the results... _for fun_. I've got alot of friends and family in the 911/medicine fields, so its normal to me. spend 12 hours at a nurses station and you'll know whos doing who and where at what time, what the nurse on floor 3 smells like, what the nurse in the other wing of the ER drives, who the doctor of ICU is having an affair with... etc etc. 

This SHOULD stop in a public setting or on call. These people represent their occupation and agency, however I see some agencies very lax on their expectations of the workers (ex. one station has very poor ambulances along with no rules on tattoos, facial hair, and overall appearance. one man had a beard, "sleeved" forearms, and a mohawk that was not stood up). I wouldn't want this coming to my house, and if (in your case) someone said a family member of mine :censored::censored::censored::censored:ing stinks, there would be hell to pay. Completely uncalled for. 


As far as NC @ 4lpm, like other people have said it may not have been the wrong call. It depends highly on the protocols of that station/agency. I've been told many times "learn everything you can in class, but expect to use only some of it in the actual field".


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## zaboomafoozarg (Oct 20, 2009)

mct601 said:
			
		

> As far as NC @ 4lpm, like other people have said it may not have been the wrong call. It depends highly on the protocols of that station/agency. I've been told many times "learn everything you can in class, but expect to use only some of it in the actual field".



Yea, I'm not sure. My EMT class instructor who is a firefighter paramedic has said, off record, that everyone gets as much oxygen as possible because it can only ever help. Judging by people's responses here that's obviously not standard, but it does make sense to me. I'll have to ask him about it.


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## mct601 (Oct 20, 2009)

zaboomafoozarg said:


> Yea, I'm not sure. My EMT class instructor who is a firefighter paramedic has said, off record, that everyone gets as much oxygen as possible because it can only ever help. Judging by people's responses here that's obviously not standard, but it does make sense to me. I'll have to ask him about it.



I am told the exact same thing, but like I said, not everything you learn in class will be applied in the field cut and dry like the curriculum makes it out (so I'm told ). Hell, it could have been the wrong move, but I'm simply saying from what I've learned from EMS professionals is that protocols and what you really do in the field vs what the book says varies. If I were you, I'd give my instructor the situation and ask if it was the correct call. In the future, after the call, I'd ask the paramedic about a questionable or confusing action taken by them. You're there to learn and be exposed to the field, so nothing wrong with asking questions.


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## triemal04 (Oct 20, 2009)

Luno really said it best, so I won't repeat too much (except to say to read his post again).

What you need to remember is that, given your situation, you may be misunderstanding some things you see, misinterpreting others, and overreacting somewhat.  Not to everything, and not even necessarily to one thing, but it is something to consider.

For the most part, what you reported you saw was relatively accurate.  Some wasn't, much was.  That's not to say that everything you saw was acceptable, just that it often happens that way.

If it really bothered you that much, figure out why, and what you would rather have done, and, if you ever end up working in this profession, remember that and act accordingly.  But don't let 1 single glimpse taint your entire view of EMS, or let it give you a chip on your shoulder and make you determined to change everything.

Of course, that being said, to be honest there are truly horrible services out there, in both their personal conduct and their practice of medicine.  But there are plenty of excellent ones as well, and loads that are in between.


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## zaboomafoozarg (Oct 20, 2009)

Just for some background, this service has about the worst reputation in the area. Privately owned, etc. So it's to be expected, I know. I just wondered how it was out in other situations too. That's all I'm asking.



I'm not bothered by it, and not trying to dramatize anything, but I would certainly be bothered if my career ends up looking like that.


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## atropine (Oct 20, 2009)

sounds like you need to ride with the FD and not the privates.


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## daedalus (Oct 20, 2009)

> Not exactly true. I paid good tuition to get some hands on training. A scheduled ride-along was one of the learning tools that I paid to receive, and I expected the best from it.


You did not pay for the ride along, you payed tuition for the class. The service that you did your ride along with is more than likely allowing the local school to send them their students as a courtesy. This is how my service is. We do not get paid to take EMT students from the local college and tech school. We do so as a sort of community service. We can stop taking students at anytime and kick them off our unit at any time. We are obligated in no way, shape, or form to provide any EMT student anything. 

That attitude will rub people the wrong way, and even more so when you have to enter the job market.



> Yea, I'm not sure. My EMT class instructor who is a firefighter paramedic has said, off record, that everyone gets as much oxygen as possible because *it can only ever hel*p. Judging by people's responses here that's obviously not standard, but it does make sense to me. I'll have to ask him about it.


 Wrong. Oxygen can be harmful. Watch the powerpoint on oxygen therapy from this website: http://www.bryanbledsoe.com/handouts

That link is only a drop in the bucket. Plus how can you say that oxygen only ever helps without a background education in medical sciences? Or proof from research?


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## Shishkabob (Oct 20, 2009)

Ill "somewhat" agree with your instructor, but you'll have to understand why. 

Yes, tge standard treatment from a new EMT with no education beyond EMT class, is 15lpm NRB. 


However, with more education, be it a&p, paramedic school, PA school, DO school or google-Fu, you'll understand a lot more about the pathophysiology of breathing problems. 


A new EMT from school isn't expected to know better, but you'll also have to keep in mind that school is a building block, and the true learning happens in the real world. 


Even if you never progress past EMT-B, never stop learning, never stop reading, never stop doing.


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## zaboomafoozarg (Oct 20, 2009)

Again, not true. I paid for enrollment in the class. The class includes all training needed to make myself applicable to take the national registry and state registry. When I pay for this class, I am guaranteed that by the end of it, assuming I pass, I will be eligible to take state and national certification tests. 

I could find this in my syllabus and college enrollment info to prove it to you but have no need nor desire to do so.

The fact that (insert service here) lets us students do ride alongs doesn't matter because if they didnt, then the college would schedule it for us elsewhere. Finding opportunities for ride alongs and clinicals is 100% the college's responsibility because it is a factor of the education bought by the student.

I could understand if the college declared that tuition was all that was paid for and that you had to find your own ride along, *but it's not. it's provided.* Part of the curriculum.

It's not strictly "community service" or a noble courtesy either because it provides potential new hires. If no new students could ever be eligible to take the state exams, companies would die out. Furthermore, although inexperienced, students do still help on the job, with lifting, treating. *especially* the medic students. They're basically free employees since they have to put in so many hours. If you were the owner of a construction company and some kid showed up wanting to push wheelbarrows for you or something, would you make him kiss your hand too?

And true, YOU are not OBLIGATED, but the College is, whether that means finding a free service or paying a service to allow us to ride with them. I'm not even sure it is free. 

The fact that you are saying your company, which allows students to ride, is therefore due great obligation which you just so happen to ever-so-humbly waive is ridiculous and would also tend to rub people the wrong way, I think. I shudder to think what it is like for the students there with that mentality.






Point B. Don't put words in my mouth, please and thank you. *I* did not say for certain either way. In fact, I said I'm not sure, and that I'd have to ask. Although I didn't spell it all out completely, what I was referring to is my instructor saying that high-concentration oxygen therapy in the prehospital setting is almost always better than withholding it.

That is all. ^_^



To Linuss: I agree with what you are saying, mostly. Except for the building block part. In this field, hands on experience is probably worth proportionately more than, say, someone who receives a degree in mathematics. But what you are saying is extreme: either implying or directly stating (I can't tell) that no true learning comes from school at all. If that were true, college curriculum would be entirely hands-on, registries would not involve written tests but rather strictly field demonstrations, and "new" EMT's/Paramedics fresh out of school would be virtually useless because they would not have "truly learned" anything, due to not being in the "real world." 

But clearly most if not all programs across the country place the much larger emphasis on the school aspect as opposed to the "real world" exposure, since by state and national standards, an EMS worker is qualified once he or she has completed the schooling and passed the test. 

If what I interpret you to be saying were true, I think we'd instead see a type of apprenticeship system for this career, rather than certification.


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## cm4short (Oct 20, 2009)

I'd say, other than the innapropriate coments in front of the patent; everything is of the norm. Especially if you're working in a high call volume area... THat wasn't me you happened to ride along with was it?^_^


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## Shishkabob (Oct 20, 2009)

Are you able to differentiate between rales and rhonci?  How about rales amd wheezing?

Can you tell the difference between tge clinical presentation between pulmonary edema and asthma?




Again, class is a building block, nothing more.  It sets up a basic foundation for you to better understand what's going on with the patient in the field. What class teaches you is NOT all you're expected to learn... Just the minimum to be slightly less dangerous in the field (both EMT AND medic)


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## daedalus (Oct 20, 2009)

zaboomafoozarg said:


> Again, not true. I paid for enrollment in the class. The class includes all training needed to make myself applicable to take the national registry and state registry. When I pay for this class, I am guaranteed that by the end of it, assuming I pass, I will be eligible to take state and national certification tests.
> 
> I could find this in my syllabus and college enrollment info to prove it to you but have no need nor desire to do so.
> 
> ...


I disagree with you. I have helped teach a EMT program, worked at a few different agencies and am now in paramedic school. I can tell you that in ever setting I have worked, learned, or taught in, your attitude would not be tolerated.

I started off in this thread wishing you well and hoping you got better learning experiences in the future. Now, I hope that you find a different career where your entitled attitude will be "appreciated" because that ain't here.



> It's not strictly "community service" or a noble courtesy either because it provides potential new hires. If no new students could ever be eligible to take the state exams, companies would die out. Furthermore, although inexperienced, students do still help on the job, with lifting, treating. *especially* the medic students. They're basically free employees since they have to put in so many hours. If you were the owner of a construction company and some kid showed up wanting to push wheelbarrows for you or something, would you make him kiss your hand too?


 You think that somehow you know something I do not? Because EMT class is 120 hours long, markets are saturated and there are very little places in this country where being an EMT means an automatic job. For example. the company I work for now hires probably 5-10 EMTs a year yet allows the ambulances to take on at least 100 EMT student a year. We are flooded with applications and have no need to train potential new hires.


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## mycrofft (Oct 20, 2009)

*It was a malfunctioning service. Want to know how I know?*

Speaking to the forum at large, would you act like that in front of a trainee or ridealong? Whether or not it is the baseline atmosphere, you would not exhibit it in front of an "outsider" unless either you just didn't give a dung, or just so wound up and drama bound that you were emotonally incapable of holding it in anymore. 

Yes I'm suggesting one does not act normally in front of an outsider, it is NORMAL to act abnormally normal.


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## Onceamedic (Oct 21, 2009)

daedalus said:


> Now, I hope that you find a different career where your entitled attitude will be "appreciated" because that ain't here.



Oh I beg to differ.  I find this new poster's debut quite impressive.  He/She expresses him/herself well and backs his/her position with impressive logic without being offensive or confrontational.  This poster is obviously quite intelligent and rightfully offended by the display of unprofessionalism at her ride along.  She would be appreciated and welcome in my service and many others that I can think of.


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## JPINFV (Oct 21, 2009)

zaboomafoozarg said:


> Again, not true. I paid for enrollment in the class. The class includes all training needed to make myself applicable to take the national registry and state registry. When I pay for this class, I am guaranteed that by the end of it, assuming I pass, I will be eligible to take state and national certification tests.


I'll largely agree with this actually. I'd be, for the lack of a better word, pissed if my 3rd and 4th year clerkships were a fluster cluck regardless of if it's a home rotation or an away rotation. In both situations, I'm paying a lot of money and expect an appropriate education out of my school. For home rotations, I don't care what my school has to do to set them up, but it's on them as an organization providing a service (education).




> Although I didn't spell it all out completely, what I was referring to is my instructor saying that high-concentration oxygen therapy in the prehospital setting is almost always better than withholding it.



Meh, you're new. I don't expect you to take the word of a bunch of strangers on the intertubes over your professor. What I will say, though, is that there is a difference between text book and reality, especially with what is taught at the EMT-B level. No, not every patient needs oxygen. No, not every patient who might benefit from *supplemental* oxygen needs a NRB. No, not every NRB needs 15 LPM to run. However, these are things that you'll learn as you practice. 


As far as the humor at the station, welcome to medicine. There's a specific amount of yuck humor and dark humor that's associated with medicine. Heck, I'm in medical school and some of the lectures in gross anatomy and comments Osteopathic Principals and Practices (manipulation course) have been nothing short of hilarious, if not sick. For example, in one of the pelvic lectures, the professor (who is a woman, I should add) after discussing how a specific piece of female anatomy expands with arousal and then shrinks after climax much to the chagrin of everyone involved. Was the lesson appropriate? Sure. Gross anatomy should cover everything. Was the comment inappropriate? Sure, from a strict "be professional at all times" perspective. Of course no one I know was offended by it. However, this is kinda of the sort of humor involved at all levels of medicine.



As far as the patient interactions, if what you said was 100% true, than the interpersonal interactions need to be addressed.


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## Meursault (Oct 21, 2009)

Gods. The forum finally gets an articulate new person, and they're hypersensitive and possessed of an overdeveloped sense of moral outrage. I'm not sure if this is better than the people who can't type, can't search, and leave after 15 posts.

Other posters have suitably dissected the OP. As far as :





zaboomafoozarg said:


> everyone gets as much oxygen as possible because it can only ever help.



That's a common, but unfortunate opinion. daedalus already linked Bryan Bledsoe's opinion on it. But oxygen can do more than just help or harm. It can do *absolutely nothing.* Interventions that accomplish nothing, done out of habit, are bad medicine.

OP, I'm surprised no one's called you on:


zaboomafoozarg said:


> Privately owned, etc. So it's to be expected, I know.



Private services in my area have a generally well-deserved reputation for burning through employees at an alarming rate and cutting costs in every conceivable way, but "private" does not mean "bad". The quality of an ambulance service has very little to do with its ownership or billing practices. This service might have earned its bad reputation, given your story of the crew commenting on a patient within her hearing.

In your spirited sermon about the purposes of EMS education and the responsibilities of your program, you've overlooked a fairly important point. Your instructor didn't send you out as a third rider so that you could get skills practice. Your ride time is intended to show you real EMS. That doesn't mean that I'm accepting your straw-man version of Linuss's argument; you've learned the skills and some of the underlying principles in the classroom, and you now need to learn how to apply and adapt them. 



zaboomafoozarg said:


> and "new" EMT's/Paramedics fresh out of school would be virtually useless


Heh. 
I should also point out that new paramedics aren't "fresh out of school." New paramedic interns are fresh out of school, and they spend a lot of time under supervision before they work on their own.

Are most EMT students THIS prone to making naive snap judgments?


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## Miss Xina (Oct 21, 2009)

Linuss said:


> Are you able to differentiate between rales and rhonci?  How about rales amd wheezing?
> 
> Can you tell the difference between tge clinical presentation between pulmonary edema and asthma?



I can't. I took the summer class and had my clinical hours in an ER. There is no way that I feel prepared for an EMT-B job nor did I expect to be. 

I haven't had any experience really. So, to come out of school thinking you know it all, or have any valid views except your idealistic dream of what it is going to be like is unrealistic and even dangerous!

I know the theory. That's it.

I wouldn't recommend the summer course at all. It's good if you're just topping up on your education.

That's why I'm doing ride time AND trying to get an internship at the ER. You can never be too prepared!


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## zaboomafoozarg (Oct 21, 2009)

> I disagree with you. I have helped teach a EMT program, worked at a few different agencies and am now in paramedic school. I can tell you that in ever setting I have worked, learned, or taught in, your attitude would not be tolerated.




Entitlement!!? It's a paid-enrollment course, for pity's sake! Part of the course involves pre-arranged clinicals and ride-alongs. But no. "Here's your cheeseburger. You're welcome, and don't you forget it!"

My attitude is nothing less than bloody common sense. Get what you pay for. Fair is fair. Next you'll be saying it's a privilege for patients to let us work on them, so we should do so for free. Or something equally harebrained to line up with your previous statements.


Let me tell you something about *your* attitude. It is 100% typical of the nonsense that I hear about, read about, and see that for some reason infects a disgustingly high number of people in emergency services. Not just medical, but everything. Some folks act like it's a job requirement. It's like once you've been in the system long enough to not be considered a rookie, generally 3+ years, priority #1 instantly becomes attempting to make all newcomers into the industry kiss your rear as much as possible. The more, the better.


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## Miss Xina (Oct 21, 2009)

zaboomafoozarg said:


> Entitlement!!? It's a paid-enrollment course, for pity's sake! Part of the course involves pre-arranged clinicals and ride-alongs. But no. "Here's your cheeseburger. You're welcome, and don't you forget it!"
> 
> My attitude is nothing less than bloody common sense. Get what you pay for. Fair is fair. Next you'll be saying it's a privilege for patients to let us work on them, so we should do so for free. Or something equally harebrained to line up with your previous statements.
> 
> ...



You obviously feel very passionately about this and I think the best way to change the industry is to set a good example. Bashing more experienced potential co-workers who could one day save your life, might not be the way to go.

I do my ride time in East St Louis. If you've never heard of it, they had 5 shootings the night before I rode. 

I fully understand the dangers involved, and know that I might have to rely on my team mates to save me, or vice versa.

An EMT-B was shot whilst transporting a patient... he was DRIVING when someone came back to finish off the patient. The EMT-B is lucky to be alive, but it comes as a hard lesson.

These people may not behave in the best possible way that you expect but they are out there in the dangerous environment every day.

I'd be a little nicer to them if I were you!


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## daedalus (Oct 21, 2009)

A good moral compass is a great thing, but I do not think that is the issue. It is strange to me when someone thinks they are entitled to some great ride along experience. I never felt that way and none of my EMT class mates did as well. We were just happy to even get on a 911 car, because most schools in my area put you on a IFT car at some company if Los Angeles. 

Like I said, I am glad that you got to see things in your experience on the ride along that will alter the way you treat your patients. And like I said, that is the mark of a good provider. However, in my geographic region, to my best knowledge, most employers and schools regard ride alongs for EMTs as a privilege and not a right. It is much different for paramedic interns here because we actually are required to pay our agency we intern with here at my school, and JP, a University affiliated teaching hospital is there for just that, teaching. Be careful with the attitude because it may get you into trouble.

I stand by my earlier statements.

By the way, I love new people. They typically bring idealism and passion for patient care. This is not something I am seeing in you. You seem to have an awful lot of opinions on people in emergency services.


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## johnrsemt (Oct 21, 2009)

I agree with some of the posters:    the attitude is normal  in the Fire house or base;   should NOT be that way on the street,  with patients,  or with a student.

   some schools have major issues getting clinicals with services and hospitals and have to take what is available;  which is too bad.  because then you get what this gentleman gets.

    in alot of cases there is no reason to give high flow O2,  that is something you will learn in your career.
   And with the patient that they  had walk to the cot:   how many times has that patient called 911 for 'resp distress' when there was nothing wrong with them?  we had a patient that called 911   312 times in 365 days.  you stop believing them after awhile.    again, with experience you will learn these things

    how much cot handling has your class done?   as you do more and more you will see that it is not as easy as you think it is not to bump people while they are on a cot.

  Good luck and I do hope you stay;  both in EMS  so that you can learn these things  and on this site:   this is a good  site,  but you have to take the bad posters along with the good posters,  just like real life, and real EMS


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## DrParasite (Oct 21, 2009)

Linuss said:


> Are you able to differentiate between rales and rhonci?  How about rales amd wheezing?
> 
> Can you tell the difference between tge clinical presentation between pulmonary edema and asthma?


no, and I will tell you exactly why not:

Per my supervisor, who has been a paramedic for 20+ years, EMTs only need to know the difference between normal and abnormal.  they don't need to know rales, rhonchi, wheezes, or diminished sounds.  only normal and abnormal.

scary thought isn't it?

as to the OP, maybe the agency you did a ride a long is a little dysfunctional.  but you need to look at the organization.  

Are they a busy urban organization, doing 12-20 calls in a 12 hour shift?  so maybe they see enough sick people to be able to identify sick, and having no truely sick walk?  there is an ER where I work where the majority of asthma patients don't get a hospital bed.  they are taken into the ER, sit in a chair, and are given the treatments.  So an patient in need of ALS care might end up walking into the ER.  right or wrong?

some places carry everyone.  you have a broken arm, and we will carry you to the ambulance.  others say if you have two good legs, you are walking to the ambulance.  and if you don't, they will help you, to save their backs.  remembers, it's your back, if you are carrying every patient, where will your back be in 5/10/20 years?

as for the whole censoring in front of the orientee, ehhh.  you are a guest in their house.  should they behave a little better?  probably.  if they don't, well, it is their house, you are a guest.  

let me ask you a question: for the old patient who the medic said reeks, did she?  he was stating a fact.  was her caregiver an idiot for letting her get that way?  and losing the DNR, shouldn't the care giver have trusted the healthcare providers in securing said documents?  I guarantee, if you are on my truck and we pull into a urine smelling nursing home, and the "nurse" is an idiot, you will probably here me say quite a few choice comments about it.  and yes, I would probably tell the hospital exactly the situation that i found the patient in.

and as what was just said, FEW people actually need 15LPM via NRB, save for major traumas or acute cardiac emergencies.  ever walk into the ER?  how many patients are on NRBs?  even the resp distress patients don't have NRBs, usually N/Cs.  So what does that tell you?

you are still new to EMS.  you have never worked EMS in a busy urban system.   you have never worked in a busy system.  you have never worked in their system.  you got a peak at what they do.  maybe they are burnt out.  maybe they are over worked and underpaid.  or maybe you have never worked in their system, and don't understand exactly how they operate.  do they follow the book?  prob not.  but I don't see the state yanking certs because they aren't very nice


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## Seaglass (Oct 21, 2009)

OP: No, all EMS isn't like that. Everywhere's a bit different. But get used to the gallows humor--almost everyone needs it to survive. 



Kaisu said:


> Oh I beg to differ.  I find this new poster's debut quite impressive.  He/She expresses him/herself well and backs his/her position with impressive logic without being offensive or confrontational.  This poster is obviously quite intelligent and rightfully offended by the display of unprofessionalism at her ride along.  She would be appreciated and welcome in my service and many others that I can think of.



Seconded. Sure, some of it will likely wear off, and the patient care stuff is arguable... but being a jerk to patients is never cool, and the OP's right to be offended.

Just a little story to illustrate how far some systems can be from that... When my class did ridealongs, most of us went with the local FD. Some of us went with one station, and the rest went with another. A few went with private companies. Those of us with Station 1 had ridiculously professional crews. Now I know they just did a good job of cleaning everything up for visitors, but it still made a great impression. On the other hand, the students with Station 2 universally were made unwelcome, witnessed some nasty remarks made to patients, and so on. Nobody said anything, of course.

A few months later, I went to a friend's party. I started talking to a few older people I'd never met, and they were curious about what I was studying. I mentioned my EMT class, and one guy seemed really interested in my ridealong. I told him, and he asked about my classmates. I told him they'd had mixed experiences. Long story short, turns out this guy was a local FD bigwig. He was furious, did some investigating, and some FF/EMTs and firemedics from Station 2 really got chewed out.  

For the record, the students who went with private companies also had good experiences. So have most people I've known who were transported by most of the local private outfits.


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## daedalus (Oct 21, 2009)

Miss Xina said:


> I can't. I took the summer class and had my clinical hours in an ER. There is no way that I feel prepared for an EMT-B job nor did I expect to be.
> 
> I haven't had any experience really. So, to come out of school thinking you know it all, or have any valid views except your idealistic dream of what it is going to be like is unrealistic and even dangerous!
> 
> ...


Well, you are in a great position now that you recognize your weakness in patient assessment, you can improve it. A recent study evaluated paramedics abilities to recognize lung sounds and it turned out we suck at it. And those are paramedics! SO] do not feel bad, instead, practice. My old CCT nurse I worked with had me listen to everyones lungs. Every call, I listened to lungs and compared them with the physical exam most recently completed. This is how I got better, but I still do not even feel confident. 

Here are some resources:
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Littmann/stethoscope/education/heart_sounds/

http://opeta.medinfo.ufl.edu/

http://www.stethoscopeskills.com/breathsounds.htm

DrParasite, your supervisor is technically correct but never let someone stop you from learning something you wish to learn.


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## triemal04 (Oct 21, 2009)

zaboomafoozarg-

You're going to notice that a lot of people on this forum are whiney, self-centered, arrogant, patronizing, crybaby, idiotic, inexperienced, know it all doofus's who are full of themselves and completely fixed in their ways no matter what (unless someone "above" them tells them different).  (you can decide for yourself where I fit into that)

Why am I telling you this?  Because it's not worth getting worked up over.  And, given that you are getting this upset on an anonymous *internet forum*...it doesn't bode well for you if this is your choosen career.  If things this small are getting to you this badly, you either need to mature, calm down, or find something else to do.  You know absolutely nothing about this field; even if you don't agree, your whole job now is to LEARN.  If you can't do that...seeya.  I don't say that to be insulting, just being honest.

Really, you've gotten all the advice you need from this thread.  Take it and run with it, and ignore the rest of the BS.


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## mct601 (Oct 21, 2009)

daedalus said:


> A good moral compass is a great thing, but I do not think that is the issue. It is strange to me when someone thinks they are entitled to some great ride along experience. I never felt that way and none of my EMT class mates did as well. We were just happy to even get on a 911 car, because most schools in my area put you on a IFT car at some company if Los Angeles.
> 
> Like I said, I am glad that you got to see things in your experience on the ride along that will alter the way you treat your patients. And like I said, that is the mark of a good provider. However, in my geographic region, to my best knowledge, most employers and schools regard ride alongs for EMTs as a privilege and not a right. It is much different for paramedic interns here because we actually are required to pay our agency we intern with here at my school, and JP, a University affiliated teaching hospital is there for just that, teaching. Be careful with the attitude because it may get you into trouble.
> 
> ...




Ah, I think there *might* have been some miscommunication. I believe he/she was stating since it was part of the curriculum and paid for said curriculum, then he/she is entitled to having the opportunity to fully complete the curriculum- including the ridealongs. maybe you were thinking he meant he paid for GOOD ridealongs? idk, just a thought.

but here in MS, I don't know how it is everywhere else, our course is around 130something hours, 12 ED hours, and 48 ambulance hours. We MUST have 48 hours in the ambulance with at LEAST 5 emergency calls, and 12 ED hours to be eligible for national registry. so IFT is out the window for us.


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## Miss Xina (Oct 21, 2009)

daedalus said:


> Well, you are in a great position now that you recognize your weakness in patient assessment, you can improve it. A recent study evaluated paramedics abilities to recognize lung sounds and it turned out we suck at it. And those are paramedics! SO] do not feel bad, instead, practice. My old CCT nurse I worked with had me listen to everyones lungs. Every call, I listened to lungs and compared them with the physical exam most recently completed. This is how I got better, but I still do not even feel confident.
> 
> Here are some resources:
> http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Littmann/stethoscope/education/heart_sounds/
> ...



Thank you! I will check those out tomorrow. I also fear I could be a little deaf. I couldn't hear to take BPs at all! Maybe I just need to practice finding the right spot, I don't know. Many people say they had a hard time when they started out so I'll keep trying!

I am a visual person though. I can handle trauma, anything I can see really. I think I just need to practice listening more.

I think being honest with yourself about your weaknesses is the only way to improve.

"A wise person knows they are not wise"


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## Miss Xina (Oct 21, 2009)

mct601 said:


> Ah, I think there *might* have been some miscommunication. I believe he/she was stating since it was part of the curriculum and paid for said curriculum, then he/she is entitled to having the opportunity to fully complete the curriculum- including the ridealongs. maybe you were thinking he meant he paid for GOOD ridealongs? idk, just a thought.
> 
> but here in MS, I don't know how it is everywhere else, our course is around 130something hours, 12 ED hours, and 48 ambulance hours. We MUST have 48 hours in the ambulance with at LEAST 5 emergency calls, and 12 ED hours to be eligible for national registry. so IFT is out the window for us.



Not for me. I had 8 weeks of class and 10 hours in an Emergency Room. I stole an extra 8 hours because I loved it, but nope. I didn't get all of what you have and I am nationally certified.

I am disappointed.


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## mct601 (Oct 21, 2009)

Miss Xina said:


> Thank you! I will check those out tomorrow. I also fear I could be a little deaf. I couldn't hear to take BPs at all! Maybe I just need to practice finding the right spot, I don't know. Many people say they had a hard time when they started out so I'll keep trying!
> 
> I am a visual person though. I can handle trauma, anything I can see really. I think I just need to practice listening more.
> 
> ...



Positioning, ambient noise, and the quality of the stethoscope all play a factor in ausculating a BP. I have a cheap stethoscope right now and it SUCKS trying to take a BP, but because I had so much experience in my high school allied health and A&P courses, I can manage.




Miss Xina said:


> Not for me. I had 8 weeks of class and 10 hours in an Emergency Room. I stole an extra 8 hours because I loved it, but nope. I didn't get all of what you have and I am nationally certified.
> 
> I am disappointed.



I'm sorry to hear that, thats why I opted for a semester long course instead of a "fast" one like the summer courses. I'm truly learning alot, I have pretty good instructors and its a good enviroment. You can easily educate yourself to where you need to be, but like always stated by the experienced ones- never stop haha.


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## Miss Xina (Oct 21, 2009)

mct601 said:


> Positioning, ambient noise, and the quality of the stethoscope all play a factor in ausculating a BP. I have a cheap stethoscope right now and it SUCKS trying to take a BP, but because I had so much experience in my high school allied health and A&P courses, I can manage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh definitely. I still go to class because it's free hehe and I learn far more on my ride alongs than I ever would in the class room.

I really appreciate my opportunity to go back into class. They've learned more in the one class than I had regarding that topic. I was surprised.

But this was my very first time in the American education system and I really didn't know what to expect.

It was all new to me!


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## fortsmithman (Oct 21, 2009)

Linuss said:


> As for the sob getting an NC instead of a NRB, as you hopefully continue on in your career and get higher education, and more tools to use, you'll realize very few people get the EMT-student blanket treatment of "15lpm NRB", sob or not.





The protocol that my service uses is for SOB is 15l O2 NRB.  Even though my service stocks nasal canulas and simple masks in the nearly 2 yrs i've been a member of my service we've used NRB's with 15l O2 all the time except when working ground support for medevacs when pts have to go to a larger hospital when our community hospital can't treat them or when we have no MD's in town.  only a couple of times did the flight paramedic or flight RN specify nasal canula the rest of the time if they needed O2 it was with an NRB.


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## daedalus (Oct 21, 2009)

> Ah, I think there *might* have been some miscommunication. I believe he/she was stating since it was part of the curriculum and paid for said curriculum, then he/she is entitled to having the opportunity to fully complete the curriculum- including the ridealongs. maybe you were thinking he meant he paid for GOOD ridealongs? idk, just a thought.
> 
> but here in MS, I don't know how it is everywhere else, our course is around 130something hours, 12 ED hours, and 48 ambulance hours. We MUST have 48 hours in the ambulance with at LEAST 5 emergency calls, and 12 ED hours to be eligible for national registry. so IFT is out the window for us


I am hoping there is a miscommunication. Like I said, it  has been drilled into me since the my ride along orientation that it was a privilege to step onto somebody else's EMS unit. It may be a right to get a quality education for your money but some people in other countries might call our opportunities to pay money to get an good education here in the US as a privilege. I always feel lucky to be able to study in the field that I have always wanted to enter.


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## JPINFV (Oct 21, 2009)

daedalus said:


> Like I said, I am glad that you got to see things in your experience on the ride along that will alter the way you treat your patients. And like I said, that is the mark of a good provider. However, in my geographic region, to my best knowledge, most employers and schools regard ride alongs for EMTs as a privilege and not a right. It is much different for paramedic interns here because we actually are required to pay our agency we intern with here at my school, and JP, a University affiliated teaching hospital is there for just that, teaching. Be careful with the attitude because it may get you into trouble.



See, here's the thing. If I'm a student in EMT Program X and EMT Program X says that if I complete their program that I'll be able to test, I expect that if I complete their program, then I'll be eligible to test. Otherwise there's a breach of contract there since I'm purchasing a service (education). Now an education is kinda of a complex service because the product might not be realized due to the customer and not the provider. However, a part of that service is the clinical experiences required to meet licensing requirements. As a student, I don't care how the school sets up the clinicals as long as they're set up. Now hopefully that experience is meaningful. However, if it's not meaningful due to the preceptors involved, then it is something that the student should bring up to his school in a professional manner. 

Now, yes, medical schools meet the clinical requirements through affiliated hospitals and medical practices. ...and yes, scut work is a part of the job. However, if I perceive that there are issues involved with patient care or how my clinical education is going, there are numerous avenues that I can take to attempt to rectify the situation both through the school (numerous people within the Office of Medical Education) or the rotation itself (attendings and chief residents). It's not a "shut up and be happy that at least you have this" situation. Now, as with everything else, the key is taking the correct avenue (e.g. attempt to rectify the situation inside the rotation itself before going to the school. At the school, talk with the rotation coordinator before the dean of medical education) and to pick and choose your battles. Of course medical rotations are a more nuanced situation than EMT ride alongs.


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## daedalus (Oct 21, 2009)

Miss Xina said:


> Thank you! I will check those out tomorrow. I also fear I could be a little deaf. I couldn't hear to take BPs at all! Maybe I just need to practice finding the right spot, I don't know. Many people say they had a hard time when they started out so I'll keep trying!
> 
> I am a visual person though. I can handle trauma, anything I can see really. I think I just need to practice listening more.
> 
> ...


Perhaps a quality stethoscope is needed than. Equipment can make the difference but the real equipment is what is between the earpieces on the stethoscope.

Littman and ADC stethoscopes are made of quality tubing and get better ear seals than the crap they usually have on ambulances.


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## mct601 (Oct 21, 2009)

Miss Xina said:


> Oh definitely. I still go to class because it's free hehe and I learn far more on my ride alongs than I ever would in the class room.
> 
> I really appreciate my opportunity to go back into class. They've learned more in the one class than I had regarding that topic. I was surprised.
> 
> ...



Where are you originally from, if you don't mind my asking? 

its good you were able to get back into the classroom, and I agree the exposure teaches alot. I learned so much from my ED it was rediculous, and I haven't even started my ridealongs yet. Our area has a high call volume, but only a small percent of those are true emergencies (and a high percent of the emergencies are typically cardiac related, because well, I live in Mississippi hah), so it'll be interesting to see what I can get exposed to. I actually may opt to jump state lines and ride with my instructors, which in itself should be interesting. 


not to get off topic from this conversation, sorry guys. I do hate that the thread got tense.



daedalus said:


> I am hoping there is a miscommunication. Like I said, it  has been drilled into me since the my ride along orientation that it was a privilege to step onto somebody else's EMS unit. It may be a right to get a quality education for your money but some people in other countries might call our opportunities to pay money to get an good education here in the US as a privilege. I always feel lucky to be able to study in the field that I have always wanted to enter.



oh I agree, but what I think he is trying to say is that the college promises to be certified upon passing the curriculum set by them (which requires ridealongs apparently), therefore the college must execute its end of the deal and offer some kind of ridealong to be eligible to receive certification. which I do also agree with. if I had paid my school $500 to provide me with the proper education and curriculum to receive the certification, but they came up short and didn't provide something required (ex ridealongs) then the college didn't follow through with their end of the deal. 



daedalus said:


> Perhaps a quality stethoscope is needed than. Equipment can make the difference but the real equipment is what is between the earpieces on the stethoscope.
> 
> Littman and ADC stethoscopes are made of quality tubing and get better ear seals than the crap they usually have on ambulances.



I plan on a good set of Lithman's soon.


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## Miss Xina (Oct 21, 2009)

daedalus said:


> Perhaps a quality stethoscope is needed than. Equipment can make the difference but the real equipment is what is between the earpieces on the stethoscope.
> 
> Littman and ADC stethoscopes are made of quality tubing and get better ear seals than the crap they usually have on ambulances.



Yah, I think that could be an issue. The equipment provided to us in class cost like 3 bucks and I could hear in a quiet classroom but in a truck?

I think I was just too excited by the whole experience to be fully able to focus with it being my first ride along.

I'm sure experience is the key! I'll have to get one of those suggested stethoscopes and practice on my hubby all day long


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## daedalus (Oct 21, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> See, here's the thing. If I'm a student in EMT Program X and EMT Program X says that if I complete their program that I'll be able to test, I expect that if I complete their program, then I'll be eligible to test. Otherwise there's a breach of contract there since I'm purchasing a service (education). Now an education is kinda of a complex service because the product might not be realized due to the customer and not the provider. However, a part of that service is the clinical experiences required to meet licensing requirements. As a student, I don't care how the school sets up the clinicals as long as they're set up. Now hopefully that experience is meaningful. However, if it's not meaningful due to the preceptors involved, then it is something that the student should bring up to his school in a professional manner.
> 
> Now, yes, medical schools meet the clinical requirements through affiliated hospitals and medical practices. ...and yes, scut work is a part of the job. However, if I perceive that there are issues involved with patient care or how my clinical education is going, there are numerous avenues that I can take to attempt to rectify the situation both through the school (numerous people within the Office of Medical Education) or the rotation itself (attendings and chief residents). It's not a "shut up and be happy that at least you have this" situation. Now, as with everything else, the key is taking the correct avenue (e.g. attempt to rectify the situation inside the rotation itself before going to the school. At the school, talk with the rotation coordinator before the dean of medical education) and to pick and choose your battles. Of course medical rotations are a more nuanced situation than EMT ride alongs.



I agree with this. I don't know if this is the case with the OP, maybe it is just me but s/he does not rub me with the kind of logic you have presented.


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## fortsmithman (Oct 21, 2009)

daedalus said:


> Littman and ADC stethoscopes are made of quality tubing and get better ear seals than the crap they usually have on ambulances.



The stethoscopes found in my services unit are Littman's.


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## JPINFV (Oct 21, 2009)

daedalus said:


> I am hoping there is a miscommunication. Like I said, it  has been drilled into me since the my ride along orientation that it was a privilege to step onto somebody else's EMS unit. It may be a right to get a quality education for your money but some people in other countries might call our opportunities to pay money to get an good education here in the US as a privilege. I always feel lucky to be able to study in the field that I have always wanted to enter.



I'm wondering if it's a "privilege" just to keep people from screwing it up. Of course if someone is screwing up a clinical site due to unprofessional behavior, then I think that the easier answer is to just fail someone out of the course. As sad as it might sound, one of the students at my school sent a curse word laden email to the gross anatomy course director. That person is no longer a student at my school and I doubt that they got a refund on the tuition for first semester.


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## mct601 (Oct 21, 2009)

Miss Xina said:


> Yah, I think that could be an issue. The equipment provided to us in class cost like 3 bucks and I could hear in a quiet classroom but in a truck?
> 
> I think I was just too excited by the whole experience to be fully able to focus with it being my first ride along.
> 
> I'm sure experience is the key! I'll have to get one of those suggested stethoscopes and practice on my hubby all day long



Lithman's are like $150+, I'm sure ebay can provide a few bargains. The top of the line run in the $200 range I believe


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## zaboomafoozarg (Oct 21, 2009)

Kaisu said:
			
		

> Oh I beg to differ. I find this new poster's debut quite impressive. He/She expresses him/herself well and backs his/her position with impressive logic without being offensive or confrontational. This poster is obviously quite intelligent and rightfully offended by the display of unprofessionalism at her ride along. She would be appreciated and welcome in my service and many others that I can think of.



Thank you. It is hard to find someone who can spot objective reason and good logic even when it disagrees with their opinion. I like challenging conversation, but I do bite back.   (And, P.S. it's a he. B) )


MrConspiracy,



> Gods. The forum finally gets an articulate new person, and they're hypersensitive and possessed of an overdeveloped sense of moral outrage. I'm not sure if this is better than the people who can't type, can't search, and leave after 15 posts.



First off, I may leave after I hit that 15 mark anyway.  Muahaha, just kidding, I like this site. h34r: It is hard to find good debate and logic as well as high volumes of useful info all in one place. 

Just because I disagree on a lot of points hardly means I'm hypersensitive. And I'm not sure what you mean by moral outrage, but if you hold it against me that I don't think behavior and language fitting only for a drunken homeless gutter-dweller should be exhibited in a professional setting, then I'm sorry but nothing's going to change that.

Furthermore, it appears the general consensus is that my training is dismally insufficient to form a logical thought, as if I have not actually lived any life and obtained any schooling prior to enrolling in the EMT class, but rather, upon enrollment, I popped back into the world anew, as a helpless newborn baby. 

Interestingly, my current training (or lack thereof according to some) teaches that when an order does not seem right, you should question the physician. But what it fails to mention is, "BUT BY GOSH DON'T QUESTION THE PARAMEDICS (or paramedic students), you impertinent little swine! For upon doing so your head will be removed from your body as due punishment!"



> Your instructor didn't send you out as a third rider so that you could get skills practice.


 When 5 hours out of 120 is all that is designated to "real EMS," then what does that say about what I should be focusing on? 



> I should also point out that new paramedics aren't "fresh out of school."


 EMT's are.



> Are most EMT students THIS prone to making naive snap judgments?



I made no naive snap judgments. Where did I judge anything? I asked, simply, if anyone else had experienced things similar to what I did and if I could expect such experiences in the future.

Miss_Xina, I understand what you're saying. But I'm not bashing them as people, just the faults I see. Faults are faults, no matter if the person is an EMT, Paramedic, Doctor of 30+ years experience or what. And I'm not challenging the aspects of their training as it pertains to the job, just their reason and logic as to how their training relates to their status and importance as an individual.

Daedalus,



> It is strange to me when someone thinks they are entitled to some great ride along experience.



Do you think people should be not feel entitled to a great class experience, then? Because it is the same thing.

If you cannot see my passion for patient care in my first post, then I do not know what to say. :/ And idealism is what I'm getting at: I want everyone to act professional at all times. And it's just that: an ideal. People will call me stupid and belligerent for saying it's what they should do, but so be it, because it's the truth. I'll be blunt: grown men should not act like middle-school bullies in fire houses and EMS stations. It's that simple. Maturity levels should be higher than that by that age.

By the way, do you want to know what I saw, in about a week of browsing this forum before registering? About 10x that number of opinions about "new people." Why do you think kids come here posting about how they can minimize pranks and mild hazing and crap like that on new jobs, how long they are going to be termed a "newbie," and what they can do to get on the good sides of the "vets"? *Because it's a big bloody problem.*




> Originally Posted by Linuss
> 
> 
> > Are you able to differentiate between rales and rhonci? How about rales amd wheezing?
> ...




Not that scary. EMT's and paramedics can't diagnose anyway. But so many of them do. That's what's scary.



			
				DrParasite said:
			
		

> as for the whole censoring in front of the orientee, ehhh. you are a guest in their house. should they behave a little better? probably. if they don't, well, it is their house, you are a guest.



(But it's not actually their house. They're just acting like kids in the owner's house, who I'm sure would probably have higher professional standards in mind than displayed.) Don't they know that it reflects badly ONLY upon them when they act like that?

Since when did personal opinion about the idiocy level of a patient or her caregiver have anything to do with actual patient care and warrant complaining loudly and unprofessionally to everyone about it? Let me ask you, is your truck actually *your truck* or are you representing a company, district, and EMS system as a whole? Because if you're a jerk, audibly, in front of people, it reflects negatively on lots and lots of people. "Wow, those paramedics are really nasty."


Triemal04,



> Why am I telling you this? Because it's not worth getting worked up over.



First off, I guarantee you this is not upset. I'm a member of my local Arguers Anonymous chapter (j/k), but seriously. I've been a forum surfer for years and years. It's fun to me. I'm sorry you think this is getting to me, but the truth is, I am one of those people who can state a strong opinion even while emotionally stable. Few can, I guess, that's why people accuse me of crying.

The gist of the message I'm getting from you is, "Shut up until I say you know enough to talk." And I am learning. What makes you think I'm not? I'm top of my class in a class where people are dropping like flies. 

I believe ignoring crap is why people think crap is OK. Hence why there are problems.




Daedalus, I just saw what was posted, and yes, all I'm saying is I am entitled to A ridealong experience, regardless of quality. But I can critique that quality all I want because it's a free country. I'm not sure what it is about the ways other people have presented it to you that makes it make sense for you now (maybe rage blinds you when you see my name? kidding. ) but it is EXACTLY what I am saying. 

I paid for the course, I darn well get to do a ridealong with someone.

Whether I choose to comment on it is up to me and has no bearing on the deal struck between me and the college when I paid for course, because *a* ridealong WAS achieved.


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## daedalus (Oct 21, 2009)

FYI to new emts, do not let other people tell you that buying an expensive stethoscope is the mark of a ricky rescue or whacker. If you are serious about patient care and furthering your education, investing in quality equipment a good idea. Scanners, emergency lights, and trauma bags are not so good however. 

They may be expensive but you get what you pay for. Littmans are also made in the United States so you support domestic industry


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## zaboomafoozarg (Oct 21, 2009)

P.S. Sorry for the book. I'll make a cliffnotes version to sell to pay tuition.


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## daedalus (Oct 21, 2009)

> Not that scary. EMT's and paramedics can't diagnose anyway. But so many of them do. That's what's scary.


Well, paramedics are now taught to make provisional diagnosis in the field. (link: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/ems/EMT-P/index.html) It is really pushed in my program. You cannot exactly give medications or use other therapies without making a field diagnosis. What we do not do is come to a final diagnosis. That is the job of the PA/NP or MD. 

Now, is modern paramedic education adequate for the role of making provisional diagnosis? Probably not. 

FYI, as a student, you do indeed have the right not to be hazed or harassed. I never argued that.


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## Seaglass (Oct 21, 2009)

daedalus said:


> FYI to new emts, do not let other people tell you that buying an expensive stethoscope is the mark of a ricky rescue or whacker. If you are serious about patient care and furthering your education, investing in quality equipment a good idea. Scanners, emergency lights, and trauma bags are not so good however.
> 
> They may be expensive but you get what you pay for. Littmans are also made in the United States so you support domestic industry



This. If you can afford it, might as well get a $100 Littmann... but be aware that the gold-plated one will definitely identify you as a whacker.  

Really, though, there are some under $100 out there.


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## Onceamedic (Oct 21, 2009)

daedalus said:


> Well, paramedics are now taught to make provisional diagnosis in the field.



In the state I trained in, we were expected to come up with a field diagnosis and document it.  How the heck can you treat something if you don't know what you are treating?


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## zaboomafoozarg (Oct 21, 2009)

> In the state I trained in, we were expected to come up with a field diagnosis and document it. How the heck can you treat something if you don't know what you are treating?


That's exciting news. Because, as a basic student, we can't say anything other than signs and symptoms. Heck, you can't even say someone broke their fibula because that's a diagnosis. It's lame. (aha, pun.)



> FYI, as a student, you do indeed have the right not to be hazed or harassed. I never argued that.



I know you didn't. But you know as well as I do how a person's inexperience and general newness can be turned against them just by nature of the opportunity presenting itself to others. It happens in kindergarten. It happens in middle school. It happens in high-school. College? Very much so, depending. And sad to say, it happens on the job in the midst of presumably well trained grown men who obviously have a bit of inner child to still let out.


You know what I'm talking about. Heck, for example, there's a thread of over 200 replies about EMS pranks right over on the Lounge forum, many of which would only be funny in the eye of the prankster, and a right pain (or even possibly considered harassment hazing) to anyone else. 

This, I believe, all stems from the "Rookie/Veteran" mindset. And you hear all the time, "give the rookie the crap job," etc, etc. Unprofessional. That's really all I can say. I'm not qualified to say any more than that!


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## daedalus (Oct 21, 2009)

Kaisu said:


> In the state I trained in, we were expected to come up with a field diagnosis and document it.  How the heck can you treat something if you don't know what you are treating?



Yikes. That is exactly what I said. It was the OP who said that paramedics do not diagnose, I was just trying to inform him that field Dx is in the paramedic SOP.


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## daedalus (Oct 21, 2009)

zaboomafoozarg said:


> I know you didn't. But you know as well as I do how a person's inexperience and general newness can be turned against them just by nature of the opportunity presenting itself to others. It happens in kindergarten. It happens in middle school. It happens in high-school. College? Very much so, depending. And sad to say, it happens on the job in the midst of presumably well trained grown men who obviously have a bit of inner child to still let out.
> 
> 
> You know what I'm talking about. Heck, for example, there's a thread of over 200 replies about EMS pranks right over on the Lounge forum, many of which would only be funny in the eye of the prankster, and a right pain to anyone else.
> ...


We look down on hazing newbies here. I would not tolerate it at my work. We do pull some pretty funny pranks on co-workers from time to time but they are all done out of love. Sometimes, if you do not get made fun of, it means you are not liked.

Take an Anatomy and Physiology class and get yourself to paramedic school as soon as you can, you will not be content as a basic. I can tell. There you will get to do so much guessing bout diagnosis you will hate it when an instructor asks you for a list of possible issues going on with your scenario patient.


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## Luno (Oct 21, 2009)

zaboomafoozarg said:


> I'm not sure that the education level (I assume you're referring to EMT and not Paramedic too, by the way) has that much to do with it, because... much of what I heard and saw would not be even close to tolerated in a minimum wage entry level position! Let alone a job of this importance. Furthermore, who would you rather have be a compassionate, helpful and, if at all possible, remotely pleasant person of character: your barber or the person responsible for saving your life? But, apparently being an untrained outsider, I do not have the keen eye or educational requirements for spotting blatant indecency.



Unfortunately you've been sold a bill of goods.  The EMT class does not make you an EMT, it gives you the tools to pass an exam, that's it...  An EMT is made in the field through practical experience.  The class you are taking just qualifies you to apply for a minimum wage entry level position.  There isn't even a guarantee that you will be able to achieve that minimum wage entry level position.  

However I will challenge you that the hubris you present with, i.e. being able to spot blatant indecency... is sorely incorrect.  You are attempting to enter a seperate society, one with it's own rules, language, and customs.  It's like a civilian trying to tell me that military basic training is barbaric and pointless.  I assert that you have no applicable point of reference.  Your posture is confrontational to a society that you are paying for the opportunity to attempt to join.  I also enjoy heated discussion, so I look forward to your counterpoint.

However, I will conceed that you do have some points.  However, I cannot comment to whether they are as you assert, or they seem to be from an outside point of reference.  I do believe that the hazing, bullying, and "kissing the ***" of the senior emt/medic is bs though.  If it is truely what you assert, it has no place in a learning environment, and yes, even the station is a learning environment


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## zaboomafoozarg (Oct 21, 2009)

> We look down on hazing newbies here. I would not tolerate it at my work. We do pull some pretty funny pranks on co-workers from time to time but they are all done out of love. Sometimes, if you do not get made fun of, it means you are not liked.
> 
> Take an Anatomy and Physiology class and get yourself to paramedic school as soon as you can, you will not be content as a basic. I can tell. There you will get to do so much guessing bout diagnosis you will hate it when an instructor asks you for a list of possible issues going on with your scenario patient.



That's obviously true. But compared to almost any other profession, it sounds sometimes like firehouses and stations are naught but big playgrounds where the people go out and save lives from time to time. And I'm not saying that's wrong, so long as people's general attitudes and behavior are positive and appropriate. 

Yea, I completed all the prereqs for my Paramedic class before I ever started basic. I wanted a smooth transition, and the A&P and Medical Terminology and whatnot has helped with Basic too, obviously.

But now I can't decide whether to go right into the Para program or take a 9 mo. break and look for a job as an EMT. I've heard lots from both sides.


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## Onceamedic (Oct 21, 2009)

daedalus said:


> Yikes. That is exactly what I said. It was the OP who said that paramedics do not diagnose, I was just trying to inform him that field Dx is in the paramedic SOP.



Easy big fella...  I wasn't arguing with you.  I was just providing another example.


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## zaboomafoozarg (Oct 21, 2009)

Luno said:
			
		

> The EMT class does not make you an EMT, it gives you the tools to pass an exam,



Nor did I say it did. It also makes me eligible to take the exam. Can't take the exam without the class, can't pass the class without the ridealongs. That's what I was saying. 



> You are attempting to enter a seperate society, one with it's own rules, language, and customs



First off, it should not even be a separate society. It is a business, or a local government service, designed to provide emergency healthcare to the needy. Sounds professional, right? That's the purpose, right? 

Second off, the fact that it does get sequestered from society still does not include any good reason for the general behavior and language to deteriorate into baseness. 



> It's like a civilian trying to tell me that military basic training is barbaric and pointless.



Not quite. Military basic training involves training. It is barbaric to toughen people up physically to the barbarism of war.

 That's a far cry from EMS's job description. On the job, as a EMT/Para, you should ideally be trained and already be a professional person. You should be hired into a station not acting as a child, but a functioning adult. 


Herein lies the difference between us: You view EMS as a society and a way of life, apparently an exclusive one too since outsiders are regarded with suspicion and confronted with counteractive unprofessional measures. I view it as a profession. A noble job.


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## JPINFV (Oct 21, 2009)

zaboomafoozarg said:


> First off, it should not even be a separate society. It is a business, or a local government service, designed to provide emergency healthcare to the needy. Sounds professional, right? That's the purpose, right?



I'm going to agree with the premise that medical care is a business and service, but not a separate society. I'm going to disagree with your application though. All places of work have a work place culture, which generally includes inside jokes about their work. No one would second guess a computer programmer making a joke about computers. No one would second guess a researcher joking about his research. The problem is that the jokes that can be made about medicine are more geared towards 12 year old boys. Why? Because our job is about poop, penises, rectums, mastication, nasty wounds, and people (tooth to tattoo ratio anyone?). The difference is that we call it "gallows humor" and boys call it "bathroom humor." Now, just as the computer programmer shouldn't be making jokes about his line of work to customers, we need to understand that there's a time and a place for such humor.


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## Luno (Oct 21, 2009)

zaboomafoozarg said:


> Nor did I say it did. It also makes me eligible to take the exam. Can't take the exam without the class, can't pass the class without the ridealongs. That's what I was saying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I disagree with your opinion that it should not be a seperate society.  And request that you back your opinion.  Here's mine, societies have been formed for the protection and common good of the society's members.  They provide a common language, customs, and traditions.  Groups of people who are routinely subjected high stress through work, have formed a common language, customs, and traditions.  Examples... Police, Firefighters, Military...  I feel that you do not recognize the needs of a society, and that you are attempting to judge something that you do not understand.  




> Not quite. Military basic training involves training. It is barbaric to toughen people up physically to the barbarism of war. That's a far cry from EMS's job description. Plus, On the job, as a EMT/Para, you should ideally be trained and already be a professional, ready human being. You should be hired into a station not acting as a child, but a functioning adult.



I will again request that you reinforce your arguement.  It is a comparable stressor to look into the eyes of someone your own age as they die, to witness the family who is losing their only child, with no training...  That leads to PTSD and burnout.  Now, the rookie period should be similar to basic training, you are learning what is going on.  Should there be pushups, etc... IMHO, no, it doesn't serve the purpose.  Should the EMT who shows up at my station expect to be a full fledged member of the team?  Absolutely not.  There's a proving time, and it isn't through hazing, it's through coaching and active feedback.  But they are not professionals yet, and are not teammates yet.  Your (not specifically you, but the rookie) prior life experience is helpful, but not a substitute.  



> Herein lies the difference between us: You view EMS as a society and a way of life, apparently an exclusive one too since outsiders are regarded with suspicion and confronted with counteractive unprofessional measures. I view it as a profession. A noble job.



Once again, I'm going to request that you establish this, rather than postulate. Outsiders are only looked upon with suspicion, when they pass judgement without understanding what they are seeing.  This is by no means a statement that EMS is perfect, we have significant issues within the field.  Prime examples are education, pay, benefits, hours, turnover, and the lack of EMS as a profession in most markets.  It is simply a job.  EMS is a unique society, and I would be interested in your viewpoints after 2 years in the field.  And as someone with 6 years in various aspects of pre-hospital medicine, both as a provider and EMS management, I feel that I can speak from experience...


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## Seaglass (Oct 21, 2009)

zaboomafoozarg said:


> First off, it should not even be a separate society. It is a business, or a local government service, designed to provide emergency healthcare to the needy. Sounds professional, right? That's the purpose, right?



The world EMS lives in is not normal society. It's some weird parallel universe that doesn't play by the rules. In normal society, you don't get covered in vomit and blood on a regular basis. You don't expect to be called to deliver a baby, only to watch it die. You don't expect deal with some poor mangled redneck who got caught in the farm equipment, or a drug addict who finally had a little too much. You don't see the disgusting and painful indignities of old age. Those are instead neatly sequestered in hospitals and nursing homes. In normal society, you can hand those over to other people when some freak accident shoves them in your face. In EMS, you are those other people.

None of that's any excuse for being rude to patients, or generally unprofessional. You try to avoid all that. But psychological and behavioral standards do change according to environment, and all sorts of interesting coping mechanisms emerge. Like anyone, you adapt. You learn to laugh it off where you can, because you probably aren't going to stay engaged and emotionally stable otherwise. You get a little bit more callous. You learn to function even when you're so tired you can't remember what you did a few hours ago.

At my VFD, we call our day jobs and families "real life," even though we're all pretty dedicated to EMS/fire. At first I thought that was kinda juvenile and bizarre. But I'm starting to get it. In the real world, I'm some mild-mannered office flunky. My partners are real estate agents, lawyers, secretaries, grocery store clerks, and stay-at-home moms. Would you ever catch us yelling at clients? Course not. But there I am at midnight, yelling at some drunk who keeps putting her head down to go back to sleep. And when I go to the office in the morning, the fog of sleep deprivation and the sheer bizarreness of some calls often combine to make the night before all seem like a dream.

(ETA: We don't say the "real life" thing anywhere else I work. But it's still pretty darn weird to have a night of blood and other people's pain everywhere, and then come home to a peaceful house. The more I do it, the more normal it seems... but I guess you get used to everything.)

(Second edit: And no, most shifts really aren't that exciting.)


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## Luno (Oct 21, 2009)

In reading my message again, I do want to clarify that my comment about 6 years in the field is not to diminish your opinion, but rather to shed light on my opinion.  This is by no means an attempt to trump by experience.


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## Achromatic (Oct 21, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> No, not every patient needs oxygen. No, not every patient who might benefit from *supplemental* oxygen needs a NRB. No, not every NRB needs 15 LPM to run.



As a random aside, this. Every student in my class when asked what they'd initially flow an NC at, says 4 (our protocols state 2-4LPM, though I know 6LPM is a commonly accepted figure), an NRM, 15. And don't understand why I say 2, and 8, if not 'per what appears to be the pt's need'. Just "turn it to '11'..."


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## zaboomafoozarg (Oct 21, 2009)

Interesting point JPINFV. And the humor can be clean, despite referencing body parts and such. Poop jokes are among the funniest things know to man.




> I feel that you do not recognize the needs of a society, and that you are attempting to judge something that you do not understand.



How do these groups deal? Negatively, I'm sure. In the original example, I found the "common language, customs, and traditions" of which you to include: chronic cursing, sporadic anger outbursts, humor via insults and borderline perversion, lack of ethics and morals, (which I'm sure some will argue is completely subjective but I don't believe that is true.) Positive responses? Nil. 

Everyone needs to unwind. Especially people with high-stress jobs. Subconsciously, however, unwinding in such wrong ways makes things worse. Tons of research shows this with stress management. 

If there does in fact need to be a little separate society for people in EMS, despite the fact that for some reason anyone in business or any other occupation can somehow manage to live normal lives without doing so (why is that?) then as professionals they ought not to "protect" their "common good" in a way that lowers them to such a base, crude, uncouth level. 



> Should the EMT who shows up at my station expect to be a full fledged member of the team? Absolutely not. There's a proving time, and it isn't through hazing, it's through coaching and active feedback. But they are not professionals yet, and are not teammates yet. Your (not specifically you, but the rookie) prior life experience is helpful, but not a substitute.



Since we are comparing, then Military Basic Training should = EMT School. When someone completes military basic training, do they have to undergo subconscious initiation tests in order to be "accepted" into the military? Heck no. They got "hired," they are now on the team. Right? I can't speak first hand, but I've heard nothing contrary.

Same with EMT's. If you don't treat new employees as full teammates (despite that you will expect them to treat you as one) then that is pure bogus. Coaching is fine. But a "rookie" period in which you treat said person as an inferior human being and still a partial outsider is completely inappropriate. Should never have hired them in the first place if you feel that pulling something like that is needed.



> Outsiders are only looked upon with suspicion, when they pass judgement without understanding what they are seeing.



That's because they are ignored otherwise. It's a "separate society," remember? 


You say "It is simply a job." and then "EMS is a unique society." Those statements two are contrary. Simply a job means a daily activity for which one receives wages. A society implies a whole new facet of living style. Which I still don't believe EMS should ever be. These internally conflicting statements need to be resolved if you can change your wording or however you want to try to do it.









Oh, Seaglass, I liked your post. Pretty enlightening


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## guardian528 (Oct 21, 2009)

Word of the Day:

Schadenfreude [shahd-n-froi-duh] : Malicious enjoyment derived from observing someone else's misfortune


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## JPINFV (Oct 21, 2009)

guardian528 said:


> Word of the Day:
> 
> Schadenfreude [shahd-n-froi-duh] : Malicious enjoyment derived from observing someone else's misfortune



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XmZIcmRKkc[/YOUTUBE]


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## Luno (Oct 21, 2009)

zaboomafoozarg said:


> Interesting point JPINFV. And the humor can be clean, despite referencing body parts and such. Poop jokes are among the funniest things know to man.
> How do these groups deal? Negatively, I'm sure. In the original example, I found the "common language, customs, and traditions" of which you to include: chronic cursing, sporadic anger outbursts, humor via insults and borderline perversion, lack of ethics and morals, (which I'm sure some will argue is completely subjective but I don't believe that is true.) Positive responses? Nil.



Again, cursing, humor, your perception of perversion, are all subjective.  I'll state again, you lack the time in field, station, ambulance, etc... to judge.  The lack of morals is again, highly suspect, as the perception is again highly subjective.  The lack of ethics as it relates to patient care is not.  This is a black and white issue.



> Everyone needs to unwind. Especially people with high-stress jobs. Subconsciously, however, unwinding in such wrong ways makes things worse. Tons of research shows this with stress management.
> 
> If there does in fact need to be a little separate society for people in EMS, despite the fact that for some reason anyone in business or any other occupation can somehow manage to live normal lives without doing so (why is that?) then as professionals they ought not to "protect" their "common good" in a way that lowers them to such a base, crude, uncouth level.



I guess I should define "society"; structured community of people: a structured community of people bound together by similar traditions, institutions, or nationality.  Your example lacks substantive proof, as societies are organized along occupational lines, for example trade unions, particular interests as in motorcycle or car clubs, and even national origin.  The society that is EMS should not protect against forward progress, but your opinion that it lowers it to a base, crude, uncouth level, is again highly subjective based entirely upon your own personal views.  Again, views that do not have time in the field to back.  




> Since we are comparing, then Military Basic Training should = EMT School. When someone completes military basic training, do they have to undergo subconscious initiation tests in order to be "accepted" into the military? Heck no. They got "hired," they are now on the team. Right? I can't speak first hand, but I've heard nothing contrary.


Evidently you've never been in the military, I can speak first hand.  Fresh out of basic you are not considered to be equal to an experienced member of the team.  You are a rookie, and are treated as such.  It was so bad, there had to be anti-hazing rules implemented.  



> Same with EMT's. If you don't treat new employees as full teammates (despite that you will expect them to treat you as one) then that is pure bogus. Coaching is fine. But a "rookie" period in which you treat said person as an inferior human being and still a partial outsider is completely inappropriate. Should never have hired them in the first place if you feel that pulling something like that is needed.


They haven't earned the respect and proven themselves to be worth full team status.  I've never condoned treating them as an inferior human being, but they are not equal members of the team yet either.  While I dislike quite a few things about the fire service, I do believe their year of probation is a good thing.



> That's because they are ignored otherwise. It's a "separate society," remember?
> 
> You say "It is simply a job." and then "EMS is a unique society." Those statements two are contrary. Simply a job means a daily activity for which one receives wages. A society implies a whole new facet of living style. Which I still don't believe EMS should ever be. These internally conflicting statements need to be resolved if you can change your wording or however you want to try to do it.



The service we exchange for daily wages provides the job, the interaction between EMS providers is the society.








Oh, Seaglass, I liked your post. Pretty enlightening[/QUOTE]


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## DrParasite (Oct 21, 2009)

zaboomafoozarg said:


> (But it's not actually their house. They're just acting like kids in the owner's house, who I'm sure would probably have higher professional standards in mind than displayed.)


what do you know about EMS?  or the fire service?  or law enforcement?  you seem to have your mind made up, when you really know nothing about this industry.

Let me educate you.  I used to work for a hospital based EMS service.  I was one of 8 full time employees assigned to Ambulance 780.  It WAS our truck.  we worked on it, we customized it to make out jobs easier.  we took care of that truck.  we knew the area better than anyone else, because it was OUR truck, and our responsibility to do so.  

Did we own it?  no.  did we pay for the equipment on it?  no.  but it was still OUR truck.  and for those 12 hours, it was OUR truck.  

if you did a ride along, you were a guest on OUR truck.  if a per diem was working a shift on A780, they were a guest on OUR truck.  They didn't work it day in and day out, didn't know the ins and outs of the city, didn't know how WE operated.  Most understood that.  Some had to have it explained to them.  So if a newbie comes on, he understood that he should see how the truck operates before trying to tell people how wrong they are.  usually takes at least a year, sometimes more. 

Ditto for a fire house.  you think they don't treat a fire house as THEIR house?  or you come onto an engine crew, as an outsider, and are going to tell them how wrong they are, and tell them how to do things?  or even better, tell a cop that his patrol car is a disaster, and you know better.  I bet you are thrown out on your *** and told not to come back.

about a year ago I accepted a new position at another Hospital based EMS system.  I have 10 years in EMS, the last 4 in a 100% career urban based system.  when I came here, I sat in the back, and listened to what I was told.  I did 5 shifts with the veterans (3 as a 3rd on a BLS truck, and a 4th as a 3rd as an ALS truck).   The entire time, it was "how do you do things" and "what can I do to help you" and "how do you guys do this?" I kept my mouth shut, helped out when I could and pretty much just observed.  The 5th shift I was working as a second, and i was the same way, even though I had been doing this for 10 years, I still let my partner take the lead on every patient. Did I agree with everything I saw?  no.  was it different than I was used to?  absolutely.  But I understood that I was the new guy, and a guest in their house.  it was their rules, and it was my responsibility to learn them.  if you want to have a career in EMS, you would do well to learn that.


zaboomafoozarg said:


> Don't they know that it reflects badly ONLY upon them when they act like that?


I don't know, you would have to ask them





zaboomafoozarg said:


> Since when did personal opinion about the idiocy level of a patient or her caregiver have anything to do with actual patient care and warrant complaining loudly and unprofessionally to everyone about it?


hmmmm.  nurse asks why do you have no information, and you can say that is why.  or asks why is the patient in that condition, that is why.  or maybe if it's a potential case of elder neglect, so the hospital staff can be aware of a potential problem.  or maybe they were just venting their frustrations that the patient wasn't being properly cared for, and since the system seems to fail all too often, it was the only way they could say what was on their mind without actually going off on the caregiver.  I don't know, I wasn't there.  But until you have worked in their shoes, day in and day out, who are you to judge?


zaboomafoozarg said:


> Let me ask you, is your truck actually *your truck* or are you representing a company, district, and EMS system as a whole? Because if you're a jerk, audibly, in front of people, it reflects negatively on lots and lots of people. "Wow, those paramedics are really nasty."


See above on the whole "your truck" thing.

I will also let you in on a dirty secret about EMS.  There are a lot of people who are not happy with the system.  But unlike some careers where people don't like their jobs, they actually do, but they get frustrated with trying to advance their profession and constantly facing roadblock after roadblock.  Not enough units, not enough ALS, ALS can't do enough, dispatch's equipment doesn't work, equipment on the ambulances don't work, ambulances keep breaking down, stuck in an ambulance for 12 hours without a station, running job to job to job without a break for 12 straight hours, and lack of proper training for new hires(both internal and external) are all common complaints, and many people have tried to make improvement, either to their own system or the system statewide without success.  They wish things could be better (for the betterment of their industry and the public in general), but for various reasons (usually related to funding and the lack of being tax funded) it never seems to happen.

so after you have been "fighting the good fight" for 5 or 10 years, come back and tell us exactly how you feel.


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## EDAC (Oct 21, 2009)

zaboomafoozarg said:


> Since we are comparing, then Military Basic Training should = EMT School. When someone completes military basic training, do they have to undergo subconscious initiation tests in order to be "accepted" into the military? Heck no. They got "hired," they are now on the team. Right? I can't speak first hand, but I've heard nothing contrary.



Having been in the military and having gone through basic training, your assessment of whether or not an "initiation" is undergone is just flat out wrong. You go through an initiation unlike anything you ever experienced. It begins in basic training, then into AIT, then into your first duty station, your second duty station..........and so on.

If I told you some of the things that recruits and newfs (in Germany) go through, some would not believe it. Contrary to your beliefs, all new soldiers when I was serving were put through some sort of physically punishing, or humiliting rite of passage. Lets just say alcohol played a big part in it and it was not uncommon to see blood, hospitalization, or the brig. Most times the top brass just turned away and pretended not to see, but it did happen, and on a daily basis. Ever heard of a blanket party? The Gauntlet?

The more elite your MOS was the more punishing the rite of passage was, you are not just accepted just because you sign on the dotted line, you have to prove you are worthy to serve beside the seasoned veterans, in many cases who were combat veterans. 

As an MP in the Army I got to see both sides of it, first, being the one who is hazed, harrassed, or whatever you want to call it as a new MP, and second seeing the outcome of a rite of passage that has gone too far. I still have the scars on the skin on my collarbones from the pinning parties, where they drive the pins into your shoulders when you get promoted. You know they put the new rank on your collar and the buddy you pick uses both fists to drive the pins into your collar. (OUCH!)

I am not saying it is right or wrong, just that the way it is. Rites of passage just seem to be a way of life especially in professions where the stress and pressures of the job get to people on a daily basis.


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## JPINFV (Oct 21, 2009)

zaboomafoozarg said:


> Let me ask you, is your truck actually *your truck* or are you representing a company, district, and EMS system as a whole?



Since the entire "your/my truck" got brought up, I want to respond to this. When I was working, I'd say both applied. Yes, it wasn't my truck in the sense of ownership. Yes, I was representing my company. However, yes, the truck is "mine" in the sense that, as a trained and licensed medical provider, my crew and I bore the ultimate responsibility with how that unit operated. Regardless of if I was driving, attending, or assisting a paramedic, RN, RT, or physician, the vehicle is -mine- and the patient is -mine-. Just because I'm planning on hopping in the driver seat when we start transporting doesn't relieve me in making sure that my partner is providing appropriate care (and, God willing, my partner would do the same to me). Just because I'm attending doesn't mean I'm relieved of the responsibility to ensure that the vehicle is being operated in a safe manner. From the second that unit is assigned to me to the time I clock out, I am responsible (morally/ethically if not legally) to ensure that the vehicle is ready to respond and that calls are handled appropriately. In emergency medicine, we do not have the luxury of saying "it's not my job."


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## DrParasite (Oct 21, 2009)

zaboomafoozarg said:


> Everyone needs to unwind. Especially people with high-stress jobs. Subconsciously, however, unwinding in such wrong ways makes things worse. Tons of research shows this with stress management.


never said it was healthy. in fact, I can recall one time when, after going on a call when a guy hacked up his sister, slashed his 1 year old niece and stabbed his 5 year old daughter, my boss asked me if there was anything i needed.  My response was "well, i could use a beer."  his response was "be serious." and I told him "I was."  is it healthy?  no.  does research say alcohol is the worst thing to do?  yep.  do I wish I could have gotten a beer at that time? absolutely.


zaboomafoozarg said:


> If there does in fact need to be a little separate society for people in EMS, despite the fact that for some reason anyone in business or any other occupation can somehow manage to live normal lives without doing so (why is that?) then as professionals they ought not to "protect" their "common good" in a way that lowers them to such a base, crude, uncouth level.


not just EMS.  firefighters are the same way.  ditto police officers.  I would even group ER staff members as well.  probably even active members of the military, esp those who are deployed.  and if you disgree, then you don't know enough firefighter, cops, ER nurses, and soldier.


zaboomafoozarg said:


> Since we are comparing, then Military Basic Training should = EMT School. When someone completes military basic training, do they have to undergo subconscious initiation tests in order to be "accepted" into the military? Heck no. They got "hired," they are now on the team. Right? I can't speak first hand, but I've heard nothing contrary.


not having been in the military, I have to say probably not.  EMT class is almost exclusively classroom time.  120 hours.  from what I have been told, basic training is several weeks.  it is physically grueling, and they break you down (mentally) multiple times and then bring you back up until you are a good member of the team.  

If you want a better comparison, it would be EMT school and the police academy.  Do you know the rules?  yes.  but once you graduate, with your PD cert, you still have to get a job, then you get matched up with an FTO have to learn the department rules and regs, and after a while, you are accepted as a member of the team.


zaboomafoozarg said:


> Same with EMT's. If you don't treat new employees as full teammates (despite that you will expect them to treat you as one) then that is pure bogus. Coaching is fine. But a "rookie" period in which you treat said person as an inferior human being and still a partial outsider is completely inappropriate. Should never have hired them in the first place if you feel that pulling something like that is needed.


not an inferior human; just not a full fledged member of the team.  trust is not given, it is earned.  respect is not given, it is earned.  also remember, it isn't personal.  everyone started out on the outside, and had to earn their way in.  EVERYONE.  everyone was an outsider, until they earned their spot.  

Similarly, not everyone makes it.  not everyone is accepted, for one reason or another.  the respect of others is earned, and that makes it MORE valuable then just something that is given freely.  and some people lose the respect of others, while others can spend their entire careers trying to earn the respect of their peers.


zaboomafoozarg said:


> You say "It is simply a job." and then "EMS is a unique society." Those statements two are contrary. Simply a job means a daily activity for which one receives wages. A society implies a whole new facet of living style. Which I still don't believe EMS should ever be. These internally conflicting statements need to be resolved if you can change your wording or however you want to try to do it.


EMS is a job.  it is a career.  it is a way of life.  it is a culture.  it has its own personality types.  it has it's own quirks.  it has it's own way of doing things.  

just like the PD and FD, when a girl starts dating a guy, she has to accept the culture.  it's part of his life.  he might work nights, days, holidays.  he might have bad days, and really really bad days.  and as my ex, who was a bedding designer after graduating from the fashion institute in NYC, learned soon into our relationship, I wasn't always able to make Thanksgiving, occasionally spent nights away from my bed (usually when I was working overnight shifts), and once in a while came home from work and just needed to sleep before I would be a pleasant boy friend.

again, unless you are actually in the system, you can't understand


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## VFFforpeople (Oct 21, 2009)

Welcome to your first taste of the outside classroom time. Yes the words to the PT were not of good nature but I think just about everyone on here has had that moment were they were not always "nice". Example would be a drunk driver hitting a family and all that stuff that goes with it.

Hazing and all that, depends on where you go. Just because we let you in, does not mean I will trust you to have my back on calls. You always will be the last person to ride in my truck. Yes I drive it, so yes I own it.

Ya we sound and talk alot like that, in public I censor my self up because people around. In my house (station), I speak like it is my house. If someone I trust and close to in my station says calm down or cut it out, then so be it.

NC to NRB, for NREMT it will always be NRB or BVM, for the real world NC and if NC can't fix it I am usually grabbing the BVM.

It is a great job and the best group of people to work with. you get close witht them. They have seen your best, your worst, your anger, and tears. Ask anyone in FD,PD,Military, and working the truck. We trust noone else to talk about except eachother, no one understands outside our world.

So, keep it in mind as you go on ride alongs and get your FTO and all that. You got a taste of what daily life is for us. Hope you are ready, and I wish you luck to your future advances into this world.


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## eveningsky339 (Oct 21, 2009)

zaboomafoozarg said:


> I recently completed my ride-along time for my EMT-B class. My knowledge is not that expansive, I will readily admit, (even though I am at the top of my class ^_^) but I was still absolutely shocked to see how the "real" medics behave.
> 
> Just to clarify, this is not a rant in any way, because I still had a good time: I just want to know if this is what I get to look forward to for the rest of my career. :wacko:
> 
> ...



*Do not work for this company.*

I happen to work as a Basic with a company that has a patient satisfaction avatar of 97/100.  Our website posts comments and thanks from the patients (which obviously are not obligatory), and there is literally at least one a week.  We love our jobs, we love our patients, and are company would instantly fire any EMT who showed a fraction of the "unprofessionalism" that you recount.


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## zaboomafoozarg (Oct 21, 2009)

I'm seeing a lot of nonsense here. Again, just because everyone acts like cliquey kids does not make it acceptable. Even though most people have to accept it.


The funny thing about the _"Trust and respect is earned, not given"_ qualifier that some of you people are tossing around like a buzzword here is that YOU still demand trust and respect for YOURSELF in full from the start, even from people whom you are unwilling to extend the same offer. 

If one has to demand respect, he does not deserve it. But if he deserves respect, he need not demand it. 




> Did we own it? no. did we pay for the equipment on it? no. but it was still OUR truck.


I cannot begin to comprehend the stupidity of the "My truck and my rules" mindset.

You're a bloomin' employee, providing a service, with someone else's equipment, under someone else's license. Good gosh. You get PAID to work on said truck. Just because it's your JOB to work on it doesn't mean it is YOURS. "Hey, I built this building for you and you paid me to do so, but it's really mostly mine because I did the work."

Try pulling that in absolutely any other industry.  I mean, heck, if you really want to talk about a sense of entitlement... sheesh.


Sure, I don't have experience in this industry, but I have plenty, and in fact far too much, experience with people. People who act like this. People who make up this industry. I don't have to be a "veteran" in a certain career to spot and call out craptastic behavior of those who comprise that industry. I may not understand the full extent of why people do what they do, but the means never justifies the end in a professional environment.

Clearly people resent any implication that they may be doing anything wrong. Guilty pride kicks defensiveness into high gear. And God forbid, that anyone who doesn't have what they deem an acceptable level of experience, say anything at all. Non-veterans should be seen and not heard, I guess. -_-

DrParasite, I feel completely sorry for you that you felt you needed to essentially kiss butt for the duration of your career. But then, you don't mind, because obviously you're just patiently waiting for your own chance to make "their rules" become "your rules." Your own chance to be top dog. I get it. That's the easier route for some. But it's sad, because it comes at the expense of dignity.


*I reasoned with logical objectivity with many of you. Because reason without objectivity equals personal bias, which equals the enemy of logic. But now it's deteriorated into the majority of replies involving biased, proud chest thumping. To be quite honest, though, I'm impressed, since I expected this point to be reached about 6 pages ago.

So, anyhow, now I'm going to ask a mod to close this thread because it's just so far off the original topic. I've got the info I needed, and now I just hope to find a service where people with the above mentalities are not approved of. And thanks to many of the helpful replies, I'm confident that professional places such as I seek do exist.*


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## VFFforpeople (Oct 21, 2009)

zaboomafoozarg said:


> I'm seeing a lot of nonsense here. Again, just because everyone acts like cliquey kids does not make it acceptable. Even though most people have to accept it.
> 
> 
> The funny thing about the _"Trust and respect is earned, not given"_ qualifier that some of you people are tossing around like a buzzword here is that YOU still demand trust and respect for YOURSELF in full from the start, even from people whom you are unwilling to extend the same offer.
> ...



You come in and bash a group of people ask our opinion, then we give it the bash us. You do not understand because you do not know. You are in class, no field experiance. I ask that I am respect as a human, no a member of the company or team right away. This right there will take time, and trust. We see alot and go through alot not just everyon that wants to play hero gets to be in on our team. With the attitude you are showing I dont see many jobs in your future. Join a vollie company get used to what you can expect then come in here and explain to us what we go through and how to act.
Again best regards to you and your career. (yes it is a career and a life..not just a job).


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## daedalus (Oct 21, 2009)

I would say, hold off your judgement on how we do things until you become one of us.


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## Miss Xina (Oct 21, 2009)

zaboomafoozarg said:


> I'm seeing a lot of nonsense here. Again, just because everyone acts like cliquey kids does not make it acceptable. Even though most people have to accept it.
> 
> 
> The funny thing about the _"Trust and respect is earned, not given"_ qualifier that some of you people are tossing around like a buzzword here is that YOU still demand trust and respect for YOURSELF in full from the start, even from people whom you are unwilling to extend the same offer.
> ...



how boring to end this thread!!


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## JPINFV (Oct 21, 2009)

zaboomafoozarg said:


> Try pulling that in absolutely any other industry.  I mean, heck, if you really want to talk about a sense of entitlement... sheesh.



Go to any cashier and ask them who's drawer that is? I used to work for a movie theater as a box office cashier and that drawer, and the money inside it, was mine and my responsibility until the manager came around to do a drop. I worked at two theaters and at one we were even expected to lock *our* drawers if we left the box office.


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## SEBeast (Oct 21, 2009)

*Attitudes*



zaboomafoozarg said:


> I recently completed my ride-along time for my EMT-B class. My knowledge is not that expansive, I will readily admit, (even though I am at the top of my class ^_^) but I was still absolutely shocked to see how the "real" medics behave.
> 
> Just to clarify, this is not a rant in any way, because I still had a good time: I just want to know if this is what I get to look forward to for the rest of my career. :wacko:
> 
> ...





I have encountered such attitudes and behavior in my service as well as others. However, I have had the privilege of working with some of the most professional and caring individuals as well. It's unfortunate that these types exist, but they exist. My advise is to not become like "them". They are not going to go away and the worst part is that much like the "squeaky wheel" they draw a lot of attention to themselves. For that reason, those of us that maintain our professionalism always seem to work in the shadows. It's hard but don't let them get to you.


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## Miss Xina (Oct 21, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> Go to any cashier and ask them who's drawer that is? I used to work for a movie theater as a box office cashier and that drawer, and the money inside it, was mine and my responsibility until the manager came around to do a drop. I worked at two theaters and at one we were even expected to lock *our* drawers if we left the box office.



That's totally true! It's actually human nature for us to claim ownership on things that we use that we are responsible for.

There was a study done on people in a mental health ward who were homeless before they came into the hospital. 

They each claimed a small space. Either the window sill or the chair. 

In a classroom, people ALWAYS claim a seat as theirs. They always sit in the same chair and never move. 

If someone new came in, unaware, and sat in a seat that was already allocated to someone else, you can be sure they would be informed!

You cannot complain about someone saying that the ambulance is theirs because during that shift, it IS theirs. They are judged on how it is kept, how it is run, and is responsible for maintaining it.

I think this is a moot point.


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## Chimpie (Oct 21, 2009)

zaboomafoozarg said:


> I'm seeing a lot of nonsense here. Again, just because everyone acts like cliquey kids does not make it acceptable. Even though most people have to accept it.
> 
> 
> The funny thing about the _"Trust and respect is earned, not given"_ qualifier that some of you people are tossing around like a buzzword here is that YOU still demand trust and respect for YOURSELF in full from the start, even from people whom you are unwilling to extend the same offer.
> ...



I will go into more detail in a second, but let me say this for now.  You are still a student.  I guarantee that once you are on the road for a few weeks, and once you start working with just one other, you will start calling your ambulance/bus/rig/w-e *YOURS.* 

I've been fire.  I've been EMS.  I've been LE.  Every vehicle was *MINE*.  From the time I clocked in till the time I clocked out, it was mine.



zaboomafoozarg said:


> You're a bloomin' employee, providing a service, with someone else's equipment, under someone else's license. Good gosh. You get PAID to work on said truck. Just because it's your JOB to work on it doesn't mean it is YOURS. "Hey, I built this building for you and you paid me to do so, but it's really mostly mine because I did the work."



I will also guarantee that there are some contractors and/or architects who have built a building and called it theirs, as it is a sense of pride to say that they had a piece in building it.



zaboomafoozarg said:


> Try pulling that in absolutely any other industry.  I mean, heck, if you really want to talk about a sense of entitlement... sheesh.



JP nailed a few examples.  I won't list any more.



zaboomafoozarg said:


> Sure, I don't have experience in this industry, but I have plenty, and in fact far too much, experience with people. People who act like this. People who make up this industry. I don't have to be a "veteran" in a certain career to spot and call out craptastic behavior of those who comprise that industry. I may not understand the full extent of why people do what they do, but the means never justifies the end in a professional environment.
> 
> Clearly people resent any implication that they may be doing anything wrong. Guilty pride kicks defensiveness into high gear. And God forbid, that anyone who doesn't have what they deem an acceptable level of experience, say anything at all. Non-veterans should be seen and not heard, I guess. -_-
> 
> DrParasite, I feel completely sorry for you that you felt you needed to essentially kiss butt for the duration of your career. But then, you don't mind, because obviously you're just patiently waiting for your own chance to make "their rules" become "your rules." Your own chance to be top dog. I get it. That's the easier route for some. But it's sad, because it comes at the expense of dignity.



Easy there.  You're new to the industry and new to the forum.  Keep it polite.



zaboomafoozarg said:


> *I reasoned with logical objectivity with many of you. Because reason without objectivity equals personal bias, which equals the enemy of logic. But now it's deteriorated into the majority of replies involving biased, proud chest thumping. To be quite honest, though, I'm impressed, since I expected this point to be reached about 6 pages ago.
> 
> So, anyhow, now I'm going to ask a mod to close this thread because it's just so far off the original topic. I've got the info I needed, and now I just hope to find a service where people with the above mentalities are not approved of. And thanks to many of the helpful replies, I'm confident that professional places such as I seek do exist.*



Just because you ask for a thread to be closed doesn't mean that we will do it.  I see no reason to close this thread.  Believe it or not, this topic has not gone that far off topic, as the members have replied to the comments that you've made.

Going forward, I encourage all of our community members to continue to post constructively and continue to show respect so that we won't have to close it.

Chimp


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## zaboomafoozarg (Oct 21, 2009)

I've been as polite as most, more than some, and less than a couple.  

But ah, dangit. I forgot that being polite is only a requirement applicable when talking to people with more experience than oneself. That rule's going to take some getting used to. (semi-truthful sarcasm. -_-)



If you want to keep it open, then certainly feel free. 

I believe, however, that closing it would put an end to stale conversation, and save peoples' time by preventing their further repetition of the same old, _"You're new. No, worse than new, you're a student. Shut up." _response that has already been garnered for the (insert random high number here)th time, and which, despite my best efforts, is all that this thread has degraded to. 

I now take my leave of this thread, not because of anything anyone said but for the sheer fact that I am bored of it. Thank you all for the input.


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## Miss Xina (Oct 21, 2009)

zaboomafoozarg said:


> I've been as polite as most, more than some, and less than a couple.
> 
> But ah, dangit. I forgot that being polite is only a requirement applicable when talking to people with more experience than oneself. That rule's going to take some getting used to. (semi-truthful sarcasm. -_-)
> 
> ...





OK, buh bye


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## firetender (Oct 21, 2009)

*Remember when it was "Are most EMS personnel THIS unprofessional?*



Seaglass said:


> The world EMS lives in is not normal society. It's some weird parallel universe that doesn't play by the rules. In normal society, you don't get covered in vomit and blood on a regular basis. You don't expect to be called to deliver a baby, only to watch it die. You don't expect deal with some poor mangled redneck who got caught in the farm equipment, or a drug addict who finally had a little too much. You don't see the disgusting and painful indignities of old age. Those are instead neatly sequestered in hospitals and nursing homes. In normal society, you can hand those over to other people when some freak accident shoves them in your face. In EMS, you are those other people.



WHAT A GREAT THREAD AND THANKS, EVERYBODY!

EMS is being human writ LARGE. As Seaglass so adequately described, _we live in a weird, parallel universe_. It's actually on the edge of life and death. That drives each of us nuts in our own ways because we're gonna die, too. 

There's no greater truth in EMS than this, and Thank You, Seaglass, so let's say it again and again: *"In EMS. you are those other people."*

This is the epitome of crazy-making and each of us copes in our own way, and many of us find each other. That is the point so in evidence here; a lot of you think the same way and are chiming in, basically identifying yourselves as part of a sub-culture of EMS. 

There are those of you hard as nails and cold as steel at work and home and you'll find each other and end up at a station just like the one our FNG landed in. (Do you think for a second they CHANGE when they get home?) And there are those of you who are pure Pros, and the strength of your example will define the sub-culture of YOUR station. And on and on with any combination of sensibilities you can imagine. 

That's what happens: Systems have a culture; Departments have a culture; Offices have a culture. And, depending on the unique interaction of the people involved at any one time, cultures can and will change, too.

I worked in a County where one Satellite station consisted of Gung-Ho wanna be Cops, another, Woodstock escapees who brought their horticultural experience with them, another still where if removing a body in rigor mortis from a small room meant breaking a few bones along the way (in _glee!_ no kidding), so be it.

_*Our individual humanity, or lack thereof, is magnified by this field, and we find each other.*_

I'm not at all surprised by your ride-along experience. It's almost cliche for high and heavy volume areas filled with low-income people and danger;to *every *detail. It fosters an _"Us vs. Them and they're sub-human"_ mentality and breeds poor and sometimes fatal patient care. I've been there, even adopted some of the same coping mechanisms, and then I've moved stations to a culture where it was okay to share a tear and a hug with your partner now and again, to actually appreciate together being in the middle of this Great Mystery.

What this means is, it may take a little time and looking but you will find a culture that suits you. And if you find one forming or find yourself in one with a lot of your own values, YOU can have an effect on how it develops.

I hope the central theme running through my posts is clear: _This is an incredibly rich profession, and there are many ways you can empower yourself to appreciate and enjoy it._


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## eveningsky339 (Oct 21, 2009)

Kaisu said:


> In the state I trained in, we were expected to come up with a field diagnosis and document it.  How the heck can you treat something if you don't know what you are treating?



I've heard a lot of people say that EMTs and paramedics don't diagnose, and frankly, it bothers me.  We don't administer morphine for radiating chest pain; we administer nitroglycerin because of a diagnosis (specifically MI).


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## daedalus (Oct 21, 2009)

eveningsky339 said:


> I've heard a lot of people say that EMTs and paramedics don't diagnose, and frankly, it bothers me.  We don't administer morphine for radiating chest pain; we administer nitroglycerin because of a diagnosis (specifically MI).



Well, nitro is not given for MI per se, but more of an empiric drug for chest pain of ischemic cardiac origin. But I see your point, and happen to agree with you (indeed, paramedics do preform differential and provisional diagnosis and carry out a treatment plan).


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## Miss Xina (Oct 21, 2009)

daedalus said:


> Well, nitro is not given for MI per se, but more of an empiric drug for chest pain of ischemic cardiac origin. But I see your point, and happen to agree with you (indeed, paramedics do preform differential and provisional diagnosis and carry out a treatment plan).



we were taught it's for chest pain but implied or accidentally gave us theimpression it was for MIs. they certainly allowed us to think so.


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## daedalus (Oct 21, 2009)

Miss Xina said:


> we were taught it's for chest pain but implied or accidentally gave us theimpression it was for MIs. they certainly allowed us to think so.



There is a whole continuum of chest pain (cardiac) pathophysiology. It can be broken into two groups : Chest pain from stable angina, and chest pain from Acute Coronary Syndrome (ACS).

Stable angina is relieved at home and it is a common condition in people with heart disease. These people take nitro, and if it works, do not always need to go to the ER. ACS on the other hand encompasses unstable angina, and MI. These people may have tried nitro but is may not have worked. What they need is aspirin and a quick and quiet ride to the ER. A 12 lead EKG and blood tests will be done to determine if they are having an MI, or if they need stress testing and/or diagnostic angiogram. Medications used to definitively treat ACS include aspirin, glycoprotein IIb/IIIa inhibitors (these keep platelets from sticking together) heparin, fibrinolytics, and morphine. 

Nitro can even be harmful in certain types of MI.


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## Miss Xina (Oct 21, 2009)

daedalus said:


> There is a whole continuum of chest pain (cardiac) pathophysiology. It can be broken into two groups : Chest pain from stable angina, and chest pain from Acute Coronary Syndrome (ACS).
> 
> Stable angina is relieved at home and it is a common condition in people with heart disease. These people take nitro, and if it works, do not always need to go to the ER. ACS on the other hand encompasses unstable angina, and MI. These people may have tried nitro but is may not have worked. What they need is aspirin and a quick and quiet ride to the ER. A 12 lead EKG and blood tests will be done to determine if they are having an MI, or if they need stress testing and/or diagnostic angiogram. Medications used to definitively treat ACS include aspirin, glycoprotein IIb/IIIa inhibitors (these keep platelets from sticking together) heparin, fibrinolytics, and morphine.
> 
> Nitro can even be harmful in certain types of MI.



Ah, that's probably why we can only help patients take nitro if they already have it.

Makes sense now. 

Heparin is a blood thinner prescribed to people with blood clots. I only know of it because my dad had it. Do ALS trucks carry this? 

I wish I could be a Paramedic already.. I wanna get my tactical certificate first though


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## Dwindlin (Oct 21, 2009)

Miss Xina said:


> Ah, that's probably why we can only help patients take nitro if they already have it.
> 
> Makes sense now.
> *
> ...



Its not in Ohio's scope, and I don't see why it would be anywhere else (maybe places that have extreme transport times).  Heparin helps to prevent blood clots, not break them up.  So in the context of AMI/ACS Heparin isn't really an immediate concern.  Now I have done critical care transfers of patients on heparin, but that different than carrying it on the truck as part of our protocols.


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## Miss Xina (Oct 21, 2009)

atkinsje said:


> Its not in Ohio's scope, and I don't see why it would be anywhere else (maybe places that have extreme transport times).  Heparin helps to prevent blood clots, not break them up.  So in the context of AMI/ACS Heparin isn't really an immediate concern.  Now I have done critical care transfers of patients on heparin, but that different than carrying it on the truck as part of our protocols.



In the UK they prescribe Heparin to blood clot patients so the blood is thin enough to move around the clot without pushing it to more dangerous places like the heart or brain.

I'm probably gonna read a few books on drugs etc before I take the class. I can see it's probably going to be mostly that anyway.


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## reaper (Oct 21, 2009)

We carry Heparin on our trucks and it is given for every STEMI pt. Cardiologists will rip you a new one, if they are brought to the cath lab without it being given. There is great research on the benefits of Heparin use in STEMI's. Do some reading on it.


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## Miss Xina (Oct 21, 2009)

reaper said:


> We carry Heparin on our trucks and it is given for every STEMI pt. Cardiologists will rip you a new one, if they are brought to the cath lab without it being given. There is great research on the benefits of Heparin use in STEMI's. Do some reading on it.



I shall. Remember, I AM fresh out of EMT-B class


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## atropine (Oct 22, 2009)

you guys must have a hell of a budget, isn't that stuff real exspensive?


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## reaper (Oct 22, 2009)

No more then some of the other drugs carried. Pt care comes first, above costs.


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## Miss Xina (Oct 22, 2009)

reaper said:


> No more then some of the other drugs carried. Pt care comes first, above costs.



well, seeing as the patient usually pays for what they get. Well, supposed to....


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## mct601 (Oct 22, 2009)

daedalus said:


> FYI to new emts, do not let other people tell you that buying an expensive stethoscope is the mark of a ricky rescue or whacker. If you are serious about patient care and furthering your education, investing in quality equipment a good idea. Scanners, emergency lights, and trauma bags are not so good however.
> 
> They may be expensive but you get what you pay for. Littmans are also made in the United States so you support domestic industry



Agreed completely, I want to have to be able to give the most efficient care- and also want a stethoscope that will last. We have a nurse that's had a few littmans since the late 90s.


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## Kookaburra (Oct 22, 2009)

I agree with most of what you said, OP. There's a difference between "gallows humor" and being plain offensive. Just because it's "culture" doesn't mean it's above reproach, and the EMS/Fire "culture" is a very hostile environment for anyone who is not a white, heterosexual male.


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## DrParasite (Oct 22, 2009)

zaboomafoozarg said:


> _"You're new. No, worse than new, you're a student. Shut up." _


  I tried to be polite.  You are a student.  you aren't even an EMT.  you know NOTHING about this field.  you come asking questions, but don't like the answers.  You said this perfectly: You're new. No, worse than new, you're a student. Shut up. 





zaboomafoozarg said:


> I now take my leave of this thread, not because of anything anyone said but for the sheer fact that I am bored of it. Thank you all for the input.


don't let the door hit you on the way out.  with an attitude like yours, you won't last long long in this field.  and from what you type here, EMS will be better for it with you not in it.


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## Sasha (Oct 22, 2009)

Kookaburra said:


> I agree with most of what you said, OP. There's a difference between "gallows humor" and being plain offensive. Just because it's "culture" doesn't mean it's above reproach, and the EMS/Fire "culture" is a very hostile environment for anyone who is not a white, heterosexual male.



Where did that come from??? I am a female and have never felt that EMS is a hostile enviorment... from your posts I'm getting that you feel very oppressed, which isn't true. If anything, males are more oppressed than females. They must walk on egg shells and are often passed for things simply because they are male and there is a female who may or may not meet requirements but it would look good for the company to promote or hire a female.

As women, we have it made.


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## DrParasite (Oct 22, 2009)

Kookaburra said:


> Just because it's "culture" doesn't mean it's above reproach, and the EMS/Fire "culture" is a very hostile environment for anyone who is not a white, heterosexual male.


really?  so my former partner who is a hispanic male (recently engaged to a woman 10 years his junior), vol firefighter for 8 years is treated hostily? or my two female supervisors (who happen to be the only two BLS supervisors in the entire department)?

or all the women, african americans, hispanics who work in Newark and Camden NJ, NYC, Detroit, Miami, Chicago, atlanta and Boston who have been there 5/10/20 years are all treated hostily?  maybe in the oregan area where everyone is a white hetero male, but definately not nation wide.


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## fortsmithman (Oct 22, 2009)

Kookaburra said:


> I agree with most of what you said, OP. There's a difference between "gallows humor" and being plain offensive. Just because it's "culture" doesn't mean it's above reproach, and the EMS/Fire "culture" is a very hostile environment for anyone who is not a white, heterosexual male.




I've been with my service for 2 yrs and I don't find it hostile and I'm a aboriginal aka native american male.


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## Kookaburra (Oct 22, 2009)

Sasha said:


> As women, we have it made.



Wow that is naive. Not that I blame you - I was pretty happy when I was in denial about the true depth of hatred our society has for non-men. North America isn't even in the top ten when it come to gender parity. We get paid less for the same jobs, the rape conviction rate is appalling, and we just had one of the most disgusting, misogynistic election cycles I've ever seen.

If you're a woman in this industry (and in patriarchal society as a whole) who happens to have secondary sex characteristics, you're a :censored::censored::censored::censored:-target. If you make it clear that you are not interested, you're a dyke and a :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored:. If you make it clear that you don't approve of hate-speech, you're a kill-joy.

A person in this thread mentioned that someone in his station is "The Gay", (though we were quickly assured that said co-worker was not, in fact, homosexual). How nice for someone to be in such a position of privilege that they can appropriate wholesale a significant portion of the population's identity and turn it into an insult.

Sorry, I'm not going to shed tears for teh poor menz who are having to keep a rein on their hatred for the first time in 5,000 years, and are crying because 52% of the population is now demanding equal standing.


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## Kookaburra (Oct 22, 2009)

DrParasite said:


> really?  so my former partner who is a hispanic male (recently engaged to a woman 10 years his junior), vol firefighter for 8 years is treated hostily? or my two female supervisors (who happen to be the only two BLS supervisors in the entire department)?
> 
> or all the women, african americans, hispanics who work in Newark and Camden NJ, NYC, Detroit, Miami, Chicago, atlanta and Boston who have been there 5/10/20 years are all treated hostily?  maybe in the oregan area where everyone is a white hetero male, but definately not nation wide.



I'm sure they would love you coming down from your privileged position and dictating what they, personally experienced during their careers.


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## Miss Xina (Oct 22, 2009)

Kookaburra said:


> I agree with most of what you said, OP. There's a difference between "gallows humor" and being plain offensive. Just because it's "culture" doesn't mean it's above reproach, and the EMS/Fire "culture" is a very hostile environment for anyone who is not a white, heterosexual male.



I do not find this to be true. I am a white female immigrant. Granted, I am from England so people tend to think I'm cool, but I have had no problem with the fire/EMS people that I have rode with.

If there are women that have had issues, I'd like to hear about it. 

I've had far more trouble from everyone else than I have had from the guys I have worked with. Been called a "commie", asked when I'm going home, what I am doing here and if I'm here legally to name a few.

Obviously, it's no where near as a bad as what it would be if I were any other colour nor it as bad as if my language was not primarily English.

I disagree with your post.


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## Sasha (Oct 22, 2009)

> Granted, I am from England



I would want you as my partner, just to listen to your accent all day.


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## reaper (Oct 22, 2009)

Kookaburra said:


> Wow that is naive. Not that I blame you - I was pretty happy when I was in denial about the true depth of hatred our society has for non-men. North America isn't even in the top ten when it come to gender parity. We get paid less for the same jobs, the rape conviction rate is appalling, and we just had one of the most disgusting, misogynistic election cycles I've ever seen.
> 
> If you're a woman in this industry (and in patriarchal society as a whole) who happens to have secondary sex characteristics, you're a :censored::censored::censored::censored:-target. If you make it clear that you are not interested, you're a dyke and a :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored:. If you make it clear that you don't approve of hate-speech, you're a kill-joy.
> 
> ...




Someone has some issues? Some FD's are that way still, but I have never seen an EMS system that is not equal and fair to all. Whether your a woman,Gay or a minority. Maybe it is time to get out of the NW?

BTW- the post stated "the GUY"


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## Sasha (Oct 22, 2009)

Kookaburra said:


> Wow that is naive. Not that I blame you - I was pretty happy when I was in denial about the true depth of hatred our society has for non-men. North America isn't even in the top ten when it come to gender parity. We get paid less for the same jobs, the rape conviction rate is appalling, and we just had one of the most disgusting, misogynistic election cycles I've ever seen.
> 
> If you're a woman in this industry (and in patriarchal society as a whole) who happens to have secondary sex characteristics, you're a :censored::censored::censored::censored:-target. If you make it clear that you are not interested, you're a dyke and a :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored:. If you make it clear that you don't approve of hate-speech, you're a kill-joy.
> 
> ...



I'm not going to shed a tear for the poor feminists who look for reasons to be offended and oppressed and will not be pleased until males hang their head in shame every time a woman passes by them on her glass escalator. 

Calling something "gay" is part of everyday vernacular, you're going to find that wherever you go, whatever the profession. There are chauvanists in every profession. Women have broken into EMS long ago, and as a young, single, pretty female I am not called a witch with a B because I turn down people, nor am I oppressed. I don't feel that EMS is hostile. I am NOT naive. I'm offended that you would imply because I don't agree with you I must be naive.


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## Miss Xina (Oct 22, 2009)

Sasha said:


> I would want you as my partner, just to listen to your accent all day.



Yeah, it'd soon wear off  lol


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## JPINFV (Oct 22, 2009)

Kookaburra said:


> the rape conviction rate is appalling, and we just had one of the most disgusting, misogynistic election cycles I've ever seen.



So we shouldn't even have a trial for rape? If the woman says it's rape, it's straight to a life sentence in PMITA federal prison? Yea, that's justice right there.

As far as the election, if you can't handle the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Politics on a national level isn't a pretty game and candidates are regularly attacked in every possible way. Are we supposed to give Palin and Hillary a pass because they have their gonads on the inside and not the outside?


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## Miss Xina (Oct 22, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> So we shouldn't even have a trial for rape? If the woman says it's rape, it's straight to a life sentence in PMITA federal prison? Yea, that's justice right there.
> 
> As far as the election, if you can't handle the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Politics on a national level isn't a pretty game and candidates are regularly attacked in every possible way. Are we supposed to give Palin and Hillary a pass because they have their gonads on the inside and not the outside?



LOL, in fact, they have the upper hand. It don't hurt as much when they get a good kick in their inside gonads HAHAHA

Although, it still kills. I don't recommend it!


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## Kookaburra (Oct 22, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Calling something "gay" is part of everyday vernacular, you're going to find that wherever you go, whatever the profession. There are chauvanists in every profession.


Google "sexism in fire service" or "racism in EMS".
Here's a bit to get you started:
http://www.ournewanahuac.net/racism-and-sexism-in-houston-fire-department/2009/09/17/
http://www.pbs.org/itvs/testofcourage/diversity2.html
http://www.firerescue1.com/fire-job...ne-fire-chief-sexism-spurred-his-resignation/
http://www.crotonblog.com/archives/...joe_streany_sexist_opponent_of_womens_rights/
http://www.greencommons.org/node/807
http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cach...ft.doc+sexism+in+EMS&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

The fact that you think people have to "look" for things to be offended over shows just how completely you are blinkered.

Calling someone a n****r or a ch**k used to be part of the everyday vernacular too. And yes, there are chauvinists EVERYWHERE. There's hurt and suffering EVERYWHERE. Does that mean we don't have the right to call it like we see it, when we see it? To help when and where we see hurt? Using "gay" as an insult is hate speech, and should not be tolerated in a government institution.

FTR, I, personally, have never been called any of these names... but I've seen the way other women have been talked about back at the station, or around the BBQ over a brewsky. Some of them thought they could buy the men's approval by denouncing "those crazy feminists" as well. It didn't protect them from scorn.

You can keep reaching for that cookie from the boys all you want, but you're never gonna get it.

Also, it's amazing how defensive people get when you point out their "-isms". Hmmm, hit a bit too close to home, perhaps? If you dismiss a person's experience just because "well, _I've_ never seen anything happen like that"... well, then there's really no use discussing anything, is there?

_Your_ experience and _your_ life are obviously how the world works for _everyone_, after all.


----------



## DrParasite (Oct 22, 2009)

Kookaburra said:


> Wow that is naive. Not that I blame you - I was pretty happy when I was in denial about the true depth of hatred our society has for non-men. North America isn't even in the top ten when it come to gender parity. We get paid less for the same jobs, the rape conviction rate is appalling, and we just had one of the most disgusting, misogynistic election cycles I've ever seen.


you apparently wanted hillary to win 

hmm, the rape conviction, now that is an interesting topic.  completely off topic, but interesting.  I guess innocent until proven guilty doesn't cross your mind.  or how SOME (not all, some) rape accusations are untrue, yet the reputations of the men are still ruined (cough cough, duke lacross team).


Kookaburra said:


> If you're a woman in this industry (and in patriarchal society as a whole) who happens to have secondary sex characteristics, you're a :censored::censored::censored::censored:-target. If you make it clear that you are not interested, you're a dyke and a :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored:. If you make it clear that you don't approve of hate-speech, you're a kill-joy.


and yet, my director, who started out as a secretary in the department, became an EMT, became a paramedic in one of the bussiest systems in the nation (per unit), l not only has a job, but is in charge of the entire ems sysem 


Kookaburra said:


> Sorry, I'm not going to shed tears for teh poor menz who are having to keep a rein on their hatred for the first time in 5,000 years, and are crying because 52% of the population is now demanding equal standing.


wow.  you must not like men, becaue they all hate you (well, your gender anyway).  Most men don't hate women.  most actually love women  

what most men hate is women who think they deserve something just because they are women.  or when women get something over a man who is more qualified, but since his organs are on the outside not inside, it must go to someone else.  or women who expect men to do the hard work for them because they are men, yet the woman takes the credit.

I bet if you stayed away from the feminist magazines, you would be much happier, and probably even find a date.


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## JPINFV (Oct 22, 2009)

Kookaburra said:


> FTR, I, personally, have never been called any of these names... but I've seen the way other women have been talked about back at the station, or around the BBQ over a brewsky. Some of them thought they could buy the men's approval by denouncing "those crazy feminists" as well. It didn't protect them from scorn.


...and there was never any gossip about the men behind their backs either, right? Only women can be gossiped about!


> You can keep reaching for that cookie from the boys all you want, but you're never gonna get it.


Calling us "boys" and stereotyping all males working in EMS in the same light? Physician, heal thyself!


> Also, it's amazing how defensive people get when you point out their "-isms". Hmmm, hit a bit too close to home, perhaps? If you dismiss a person's experience just because "well, _I've_ never seen anything happen like that"... well, then there's really no use discussing anything, is there?
> 
> _Your_ experience and _your_ life are obviously how the world works for _everyone_, after all.



Ah. I get it now. You're the only one who's allowed to discuss this because only your experience is correct?


----------



## Sasha (Oct 22, 2009)

> FTR, I, personally, have never been called any of these names... but I've seen the way other women have been talked about back at the station, or around the BBQ over a brewsky.



I have seen the way men have been talked about in an ambulance, back at the station, and over a smoothie. (Because i don't drink beer.) I know what most of my male coworkers man parts look like, how well they perform in bed, etc, but have never slept with them. There's a running poll amoung us who'se a closet homosexual, etc... Women are not as innocent as you'd like to believe. 



> You can keep reaching for that cookie from the boys all you want, but you're never gonna get it.



I don't need their cookie, because I have their respect, as an equal. Because I do my part, do my job, and accept that I am not going to be put on a pedestal because I am a woman.



> should not be tolerated in a government institution.



Not all EMS agencys are government run, many of them are private. As is mine.


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## eveningsky339 (Oct 22, 2009)

There is indeed sexism in EMS... and finance, aerospace engineering, and every other profession you can bother to think of.

There will always be a few insecure dodo-brains who call someone out based on gender or race.  It happens everywhere.

I have several female co-workers, and I have nothing but the utmost respect for them.  They were my seniors when I was a new hire and were treated as such.  Other than an occasional joke (out of love, mind you) regarding the "heavy lifting" part of the job, we don't even bother distinguishing male or female when the tones go off.


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## Miss Xina (Oct 22, 2009)

Kookaburra said:


> Google "sexism in fire service" or "racism in EMS".
> Here's a bit to get you started:
> http://www.ournewanahuac.net/racism-and-sexism-in-houston-fire-department/2009/09/17/
> http://www.pbs.org/itvs/testofcourage/diversity2.html
> ...



you seem to hold a whole lot of hostility to men and the EMS/Fire departments.

Maybe this career isn't right for you. Maybe you should look elsewhere. You seem to feel the need to attack everyone that is male. I don't know what happened to you, nor do I need to know. I just think you have unresolved issues that maybe a counsellor could help you with...

"your experience and your life are obviously how the world works  for everyone"... you seem to think your experience is the norm.

I don't think you're setting a good example though. You expect men to treat women with respect and equality, but you're treating every single man the same way. With disrespect, prejudice and hostility.

If it were a man doing this to a woman, you'd be all over them!


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## reaper (Oct 22, 2009)

When you hold the hostile attitude, all you will see is hostility. Again, maybe it is time for a move, if that is how you are treated. EMS around the country is very diverse and almost all are treated equal. Unless you are the one with an attitude, then you will be treated equally with like attitude!


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## Kookaburra (Oct 22, 2009)

DrParasite said:


> I bet if you stayed away from the feminist magazines, you would be much happier, and probably even find a date.



So you are using a sexist and homophobic remark to say that sexism and homophobia aren't a problem in EMS? Interesting strategy. Keep going! I've almost got my butt-hurt dude bingo card filled out!


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## reaper (Oct 22, 2009)

In everyone of your posts, you have put down men. You are grouping all men together. That is the perfect example of "sexist"!


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## Lifeguards For Life (Oct 22, 2009)

Miss Xina said:


> you seem to hold a whole lot of hostility to men and the EMS/Fire departments.
> 
> Maybe this career isn't right for you. Maybe you should look elsewhere. You seem to feel the need to attack everyone that is male. I don't know what happened to you, nor do I need to know. I just think you have unresolved issues that maybe a counsellor could help you with...
> 
> ...



sasha's always been nice to me


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## JPINFV (Oct 22, 2009)

Kookaburra said:


> So you are using a sexist and homophobic remark to say that sexism and homophobia aren't a problem in EMS? Interesting strategy. Keep going! I've almost got my butt-hurt dude bingo card filled out!




How in the hell is that homophobic? Are you saying that only homosexuals can't score a date?


----------



## Luno (Oct 22, 2009)

*Hmmmm.....*



Kookaburra said:


> So you are using a sexist and homophobic remark to say that sexism and homophobia aren't a problem in EMS? Interesting strategy. Keep going! I've almost got my butt-hurt dude bingo card filled out!





> I agree with most of what you said, OP. There's a difference between "gallows humor" and being plain offensive. Just because it's "culture" doesn't mean it's above reproach, and the EMS/Fire "culture" is a very hostile environment for anyone who is not a white, heterosexual male.



Wow, kookaburra, you definitely need to speak with someone.  If it is regarding specific events, then you need to speak to their supervisor.  If it does not involve specific events then a psychologist.  Your attitude is exactly the type of attitude that I've experienced from people who could not do the job, and felt that it was some sort of bias that held them back.  I will state that as I do not know you personally, I cannot conclusively state this is your issue.  Yes, there is the "gay guy," in our station, and no, he is not homosexual.  If we had a homosexual partner, he most likely would be referred to as the "straight guy."  Equal treatment all around...   If it offends you, feel free to mention it on your first shift with us, and we will change it.  You may just be referred to as "eggshell" or something alike, but we won't cross the protected category line.  

With everyone that I've worked with whether a man or a woman, I could care less what you do in your bedroom, church, personal life, I care simply if you do the job to the best of your ability, no excuses.  I don't care if you're a woman, I don't care if you are on your menstrual cycle, I don't care if you've just been dumped by your girlfriend, I don't care if you're a man, you will all be held to the exact same standard.  There is no deviation for sex or orientation, and for me to treat anyone differently would be exactly that, sexism.  I refuse to "cut breaks" for women, any more then I would for men.  If you can't handle that, then I suggest that you reconsider the career you've chosen.  That being said, I've noticed an abrupt attitude change since your joining this board, has there been something to negatively affect you while you've been in the field?  If so, then it is something that you should address, and not let it affect your opinion of the field in general.


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## zaboomafoozarg (Oct 22, 2009)

Guess I'll come back to this thread seeing as how it's about something interesting again! 

First off, let me say: *PEOPLE, stop telling people with whom you do not agree that they need to find another career!!!!!* It's the epitome of ignorance. Every industry is made up of tons of people from all backgrounds with every conceivable characteristic. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean that YOU get to determine that THEY are not suitable for the job. You're nothing but a forum troll when you spew crap like that. Forgive the bluntness but it's the way it is.:blush:


Secondly, I cannot speak from both sides of the fence because I am male. But I would not hesitate in the slightest to say that there are a LLLOT of selfish, filthy-minded men out there who talk like dirtbags and behave like animals. It's a fact. I'm not saying it doesn't happen with women too. Just that it DOES happen with men, for sure. One only has to walk through a college campus or any place where there are groups of same-gender people talking to see it. Sometimes it's even difficult to get away from. And thus is only reasonable to assume that, by the rule of averages, at least SOME men like this will have spilled over into EMS. 



So simmer down everybody. There's no need to have a gender equality war right here.


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## Seaglass (Oct 22, 2009)

It serves no purpose to be angry at men as a whole. Yes, some of them are the chauvinist jerks who've made parts of my life hell, often without even realizing it. But some of them are also the men who've encouraged me to pursue nontraditional interests, provided me with the same mentoring they gave to the boys, or even talked coworkers into giving me a shot on a team. All of my hard work would be worth nothing if nobody ever gave me a chance... and the people who've most often had the power to do that are men. I think it's incredibly unfair to tar them with the same brush. 

I don't think they're exceptions to the rule, either. I just think most people fall somewhere in the middle, and are easily swayed for bad or good by their peers and upbringing.

In the seriously sexist places I've worked, I've learned two strategies. Either I persevere and win enough to be satisfied, or persevere and eventually give up on a lost cause. The day they see me as an exception to 'how women are' is the day I win... it'll take a lot more of me, or arguments from men, to change their minds. Regardless, being constantly bitter is very counterproductive. People can smell it a mile away, and nobody likes it. Besides, I really don't enjoy living like that. When I stay bitter no matter what, it's time for me to find a new workplace.


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## Seaglass (Oct 22, 2009)

zaboomafoozarg said:


> First off, let me say: *PEOPLE, stop telling people with whom you do not agree that they need to find another career!!!!!*



Seconded. Along with the rest of your interestingly colored post.


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## ffemt8978 (Oct 22, 2009)

I think that this thread has now run it's course.


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