# Professional liability insurance as a volunteer



## bigbaldguy (Feb 14, 2011)

Anyone carry professional insurance as a volunteer. When I looked at the hpso site they have a place for "volunteer ems" but then it wants to know if you receive a w2 or pay your own taxes? I have home, auto and personal liability out the wazoo but I figure a little extra coverage never hurts. Any suggestions on limits? I'm assuming since I'm a BLS provider I can probably go with lower limits? Any input on this would be appreciated.


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## ffemt8978 (Feb 14, 2011)

I carry it as a volunteer.  I can't help you about the tax issue, because we're reimbursed on a per call basis by the county and receive W-2's.


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## bigbaldguy (Feb 14, 2011)

ffemt8978 said:


> I carry it as a volunteer.  I can't help you about the tax issue, because we're reimbursed on a per call basis by the county and receive W-2's.



You get paid for calls as a volunteer? I think we get points that can be converted to coffee mugs and beer coozies or something. I guess since I don't receive a w2 then it has to be option 2.


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## bigbaldguy (Feb 15, 2011)

Ok finally figured out HPSO web site. A 1000000/3000000 policy for a volunteer basic/intermediate in their first year who makes less than 600 dollars a year in compensation is only 48 dollars so I figure I'd be an idiot not to get it.


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## Melclin (Feb 15, 2011)

You aren't covered under good Samaritan legislation of some sort? Or by your service?

Also, what on earth can an EMT get sued for?


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## Madmedic780 (Feb 15, 2011)

I can't tell if that was sarcasm or not..

EMT's can be sued for a lot of things, lets say they accidentally drop the patient and the patient gets injured as a result. Also liability during transport if you were to get into a serious wreak. I've been included in a blanket law suit once, where a small kid coded during transport and the ER was unable to revive him (dx was undetected congenital heart defect). The parents (out of anger I think) came after the ER and my department. However after a couple of days they decided against it and dropped it.


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## Melclin (Feb 15, 2011)

My question about the good Samaritan stuff still applies. A volunteer acting in good faith isn't protected under most US state laws? That'd suck. 

What about the service you're volunteering for? Surely they cover their vollies. They couldn't expect vollies to organize and pay for insurance on top of volunteering their time could they (I say that knowing full well the answer will probably be "They sure can")?

You make a fair point about living in a ridiculously litigious society. But I think it was EMSlaw, who I don't know comes around these parts too much anymore (which is a shame) has mentioned that lack of successful lawsuits against paramedics, even in America (correct me if I'm wrong) and that the constant CYA culture in EMS is a bit of a beat up. 

We all did a subject on health law at uni, and civil suits were almost non-existent on our radar. S**t loads about end of life law, and various kinds of gross negligence, but we really don't have to worry about people suing us for breathing.


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## Chimpie (Feb 15, 2011)

The Good Samaritan law goes out the window when you're responding as part of an agency/department, volly or paid, because you're no longer responding as a samaritan.

Sent using the Tapatalk app!


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## TransportJockey (Feb 15, 2011)

Chimpie said:


> The Good Samaritan law goes out the window when you're responding as part of an agency/department, volly or paid, because you're no longer responding as a samaritan.
> 
> Sent using the Tapatalk app!



Not everywhere. Here in TX vollies are covered under the Good Samaritan law as long as they don't get paid.

EDIT: At least as I understand it based on what law lectures we have been presented with in Medic school.


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## akflightmedic (Feb 15, 2011)

jtpaintball70 said:


> Not everywhere. Here in TX vollies are covered under the Good Samaritan law as long as they don't get paid.
> 
> EDIT: At least as I understand it based on what law lectures we have been presented with in Medic school.



Texas has many different laws and this is one of them....apparently even volunteers are protected under the Good Sam Act even if they are responding with an agency...provided they do not collect more than $500 a year in wages or reimbursements.

http://www.texmed.org/template.aspx?id=2107


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## Chimpie (Feb 15, 2011)

jtpaintball70 said:


> Not everywhere. Here in TX vollies are covered under the Good Samaritan law as long as they don't get paid.
> 
> EDIT: At least as I understand it based on what law lectures we have been presented with in Medic school.





akflightmedic said:


> Texas has many different laws and this is one of them....apparently even volunteers are protected under the Good Sam Act even if they are responding with an agency...provided they do not collect more than $500 a year in wages or reimbursements.
> 
> http://www.texmed.org/template.aspx?id=2107



Very interesting.  I always heard it didn't apply since you're responding as part of a professional department.  Then again, this was ten years ago.

Either way, be sure to protect yourself and your assets.


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## samiam (Feb 15, 2011)

In Michigan even paid ems is covered.



> Immunity from liability
> 
> Sec. 20965. (1) Unless an act or omission is the result of gross negligence or willful misconduct, the acts or omissions of a medical first responder, emergency medical technician, emergency medical technician specialist, paramedic, medical director of a medical control authority or his or her designee, or, subject to subsection (5), an individual acting as a clinical preceptor of a department-approved education program sponsor while providing services to a patient outside a hospital, in a hospital before transferring patient care to hospital personnel, or in a clinical setting that are consistent with the individual's licensure or additional training required by the medical control authority including, but not limited to, services described in subsection (2), or consistent with an approved procedure for that particular education program do not impose liability in the treatment of a patient on those individuals or any of the following persons: (a) The authorizing physician or physician's designee.
> 
> ...


Link:  http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(sk....aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-333-20965


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## emt seeking first job (Feb 17, 2011)

I would only recommend it if you have substantial assets that could be attached.

Different states have different laws on that.

Sometimes having insurance invites a claim or lawsuit against you. Your agency has coverage that covers you, in the scope of your duties.

If the premium is around $50 a year, that is an indication that EMTs don't get sued so much.

Its like thirty years ago airports sold flight insurance. For $10 or so your beneficiary could collect $ 1/2 million.

Obviously they did it because the chance of dying on any one commercial flight is next to nil..

Injury lawyers work on contingency. If there is no chance of getting paid, ie , you have no insurance, they dont want the case. That is why most states REQUIRE auto insurance. If there were no insurance, nobody would ever collect from auto injury cases.


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## bigbaldguy (Feb 17, 2011)

Thanks for all the info folks. I decided to go ahead and get the coverage. Even though it's unlikely that as an EMT B Ill do something medically that might be viewed as negligence this insurance also covers me while driving the ambulance and according to the good Samaritan laws here in Texas "*And finally, the harm may not have been caused by the volunteer operating a motor vehicle, vessel, aircraft, or other vehicle for which the State requires the operator or the owner of the vehicle, craft, or vessel to possess an operator's license or maintain insurance*". If nothing else it will make me feel better having it even if I never have to use it.


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## Jon (Feb 17, 2011)

bigbaldguy said:


> Ok finally figured out HPSO web site. A 1000000/3000000 policy for a volunteer basic/intermediate in their first year who makes less than 600 dollars a year in compensation is only 48 dollars so I figure I'd be an idiot not to get it.





Melclin said:


> You aren't covered under good Samaritan legislation of some sort? Or by your service?
> 
> Also, what on earth can an EMT get sued for?



I pay about $150/year for a policy with similar numbers, that covers me as Volly/Paid BLS/ALS, as well as working as a CPR/EMT instructor.

I look at the cost, and figure that $150 isn't much money for peace of mind. In the event I'm ever sued, I'll have insurance that will pay for a lawyer to protect MY interests (rather than a company attorney who may be willing to throw me under the bus to help the company). And in the event someone wins a judgment against me, theres some money as a buffer before I loose my car, etc.

Here's a few threads that a quick search found that discuss some of the viewpoints. The earliest seems to be thread #61, started back in June of 2004, the month of our founding!
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=61
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=17660
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=15827
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=8575


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## HMFD166 (Feb 17, 2011)

In NY, you are not covered under good samaritan laws when responding to a call.



Chimpie said:


> Very interesting.  I always heard it didn't apply since you're responding as part of a professional department.  Then again, this was ten years ago.
> 
> Either way, be sure to protect yourself and your assets.


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## scottyb (Feb 17, 2011)

HMFD166 said:


> In NY, you are not covered under good samaritan laws when responding to a call.



Might want to check that.  It is not that simple.

NY 3013



> A  certified  first  responder,  emergency  medical  technician  or
> advanced  emergency  medical  technician,  whether  or  not he or she is
> acting on behalf of an ambulance service or advanced life support  first
> response  service,  who  voluntarily  and  without  the  expectation  of
> ...



Seems like it has to be gross negligence.


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## bigbaldguy (Feb 24, 2011)

Found this info through my insurer on cases involving EMT/Paramedic lawsuits. Keep in mind this info is provided by the same company that wrote my policy. You'll notice that most of the cases involve Paramedics but a few do involve EMT.

Sorry for some reason the link I posted isn't working but if you go to HPSO and look under case studies you can find the info. The majority of the EMT cases have to do with things like failure to transport, and an obese man falling off of the gurney.

http://www.hpso.com


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## emt seeking first job (Feb 24, 2011)

I am just curious, and I am not going to tell anyone NOT to get insurance, however, can anyone find a link where an EMT or Paramedic (employed by a service, working in the scope of their duties) had his or her own personal assets attached after a civil judgement ?


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## bigbaldguy (Feb 24, 2011)

Not exactly what you were referring too but this article has some interesting info on issues regarding EMS being sued. Here is the excerpt.

" _Employees of government EMS systems, including municipal and county EMTs and paramedics, enjoy another type of statutory protection, called sovereign immunity. In most states, sovereign immunity statutes mirror the language of the Federal Tort Claims Act, which requires the U.S. government to indemnify EMS personnel for negligent acts, while imposing a limit of $100,000 on damages. Thus, in most states, a patient who sues a municipal EMT for negligence may collect up to $100,000 from the city in which the incident occurred, but nothing from the EMT personally.

     Note that these statutes provide immunity from liability, not from lawsuits. In other words, they do not keep plaintiffs from hauling EMTs and paramedics into court, even though a judge may ultimately dismiss the claim. Because the defendant may incur significant legal expenses in the process, it's better to avoid the lawsuit entirely, and to rely on statutory immunity only as a last line of defense_."

And here is the link to the actual article.

http://www.emsworld.com/print/EMS-World/Surviving-a-Lawsuit/1$6186

My concern was not that I would be found liable but that I would be sued at all. As it's often said anybody can sue anybody these days.


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## emt seeking first job (Feb 24, 2011)

bigbaldguy said:


> Not exactly what you were referring too but this article has some interesting info on issues regarding EMS being sued. Here is the excerpt.
> 
> " _Employees of government EMS systems, including municipal and county EMTs and paramedics, enjoy another type of statutory protection, called sovereign immunity. In most states, sovereign immunity statutes mirror the language of the Federal Tort Claims Act, which requires the U.S. government to indemnify EMS personnel for negligent acts, while imposing a limit of $100,000 on damages. Thus, in most states, a patient who sues a municipal EMT for negligence may collect up to $100,000 from the city in which the incident occurred, but nothing from the EMT personally.
> 
> ...




Most insurance policies have limits of 100k per person and 300 per incident.


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## emt seeking first job (Feb 24, 2011)

I was an insurance investigator 1990-1997.

I never saw anybody viably sued personally for anything. I saw them named as a procedural matter.

Again, not to disuade anyone from buying insurance, but, most lawyers will not sue anyone ON A CONTINGENT BASIS if they are not a big company, the government, or someone with insurance that covers the suit.

As I said, if the premium for an EMT policy is less than $100 a year, that means the company the writes them has a very low rate of claims/lawsuits because BY DEFINITION the adminstrative costs of running the company, th defense costs and indemnity costs for claims and suits  are spread out among all the policy holders. 

Insurance companies make no profit from premiums. They make profit from investing the money while they have it in their hands.


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## bigbaldguy (Feb 24, 2011)

My policy actually has a much higher limit then the 100k/300k but only because it was no more expensive to do it that way. The idea that only people who have insurance are sued is debatable. By law an insurance company can not disclose if you have a policy with them. So a lawyer can't just call up insurance companies and ask if a defendant is insured. I agree though that if you don't have much in the way of assets then there is less need to have insurance. However what if you go on to become an RN or PA or even an MD. It is not unheard of for settlements to be attached to future earnings (admittedly I found no instances where this was done at a medic/emt level). More importantly because I have a good job that makes decent money I am by definition a better target of a lawsuit then say an 18 year old EMT with no assets and an entry level job. 18 years ago when I was 18 I wouldn't never have even looked into a policy like this but now I have more obligations and more assets to protect. I feel that the very minimal cost of the policy (48 dollars) does reflect the very long odds of my ever being sued, but lets face it long odds doesn't mean it won't ever happen. 

Just my 2 cents


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## emt seeking first job (Feb 24, 2011)

bigbaldguy said:


> My policy actually has a much higher limit then the 100k/300k but only because it was no more expensive to do it that way. The idea that only people who have insurance are sued is debatable. By law an insurance company can not disclose if you have a policy with them. So a lawyer can't just call up insurance companies and ask if a defendant is insured. I agree though that if you don't have much in the way of assets then there is less need to have insurance. However what if you go on to become an RN or PA or even an MD. It is not unheard of for settlements to be attached to future earnings (admittedly I found no instances where this was done at a medic/emt level). More importantly because I have a good job that makes decent money I am by definition a better target of a lawsuit then say an 18 year old EMT with no assets and an entry level job. 18 years ago when I was 18 I wouldn't never have even looked into a policy like this but now I have more obligations and more assets to protect. I feel that the very minimal cost of the policy (48 dollars) does reflect the very long odds of my ever being sued, but lets face it long odds doesn't mean it won't ever happen.
> 
> Just my 2 cents




Again, I am not disuading you from having it or anyone else to have it.

As far as attaching salary, I know in NY state, 5% can be attached for 20 years.

I know there are financial advisors that set up people of means to structure their financial matters in a way to make them judgement resistant.

I am not an expert in insurance, I just had a greater than average awareness of it. 

Do you have a household umbrella liability policy? Ask the person who wrote it for you if it covers you acting in a professional capacity as an emt or paramedic. 

Yes, there is no way to know if someone had insurance but there is a good way to guess. In NY state, there is always insurance to grab, even if the at fault party had no insurance. Lawyers know that and that is why they auto claims.

Buisness owneres need insurance to rent their space. Property owners need it to get a mortage.

Best example I can give you. A person rapes someone on a public street. There is damages/liability. The rapist gets arrested. There is a target. But 99.9% of lawyers will not take that case. They get a judgement but how will they collect. If ever....?

A person is at a supermarket, they get raped, the lawyer sues the rapist, the porperty owner, the laundrmat owner, the contract security guard company.

Google : jointly and severaly liable.

Based on the circumstances of the rape, the insurance companies will pay to get out of the cae. They will negotiate with the plaintiff lawyer the damages, and then amonst themselves the % of "blame".

Now the insurance companies will do this big investigation. They find out the rapist was the former boyfriend of the plaintiff, she told him she would be there, the case will settle but not for so much.

Now if the rapist was a former employee, fired for cause, and the staff saw him lurking around earlier in the day, they pretty much have to pay out the policy....and the plaintiff usually gets what the policy is, regardless of court judgement, the lawyer has no incentive or easy way to get more......


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## emt seeking first job (Feb 24, 2011)

bigbaldguy said:


> My policy actually has a much higher limit then the 100k/300k but only because it was no more expensive to do it that way. The idea that only people who have insurance are sued is debatable. By law an insurance company can not disclose if you have a policy with them. So a lawyer can't just call up insurance companies and ask if a defendant is insured. I agree though that if you don't have much in the way of assets then there is less need to have insurance. However what if you go on to become an RN or PA or even an MD. It is not unheard of for settlements to be attached to future earnings (admittedly I found no instances where this was done at a medic/emt level). More importantly because I have a good job that makes decent money I am by definition a better target of a lawsuit then say an 18 year old EMT with no assets and an entry level job. 18 years ago when I was 18 I wouldn't never have even looked into a policy like this but now I have more obligations and more assets to protect. I feel that the very minimal cost of the policy (48 dollars) does reflect the very long odds of my ever being sued, but lets face it long odds doesn't mean it won't ever happen.
> 
> Just my 2 cents




Such a policy reminds me of flight insurance which I have not seen since the early 1990s. You pay $10 and your beneficiary receives 1 million if you die. The policy covers you for that one flight. They preyed on people's fears. Statistically your chances of dying on any one flight are nil. But when it does happen, the media over covers it (which logically should tell you that if the national media covers a commerical flight crash it rarely happens, do they cover car crashes nationwide...?) those policies gave psychological comfort.

There were friends of my parents who when travelling alone w/o kids would fly on separate flights so not to orphan their kids.....but they always drove together.....


Again, I advide you to keep and renew your policy. However, if you have a house and have or can get an all risks unbrella liability policy, ask if it covers you professionally.

I am really curious if this EMT/paramedic insurance company has ever had to defend or indemnify and emt/paramedic. They only charge $48. How many policies did they sell? 

How much does a policy for an OBGYN MD cost ? I have heard some are in the six figures. That is because they defend and indemnify so many of them.


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## bigbaldguy (Feb 24, 2011)

This company also insures RN's, nurse practitioners, physicians assistants and pharmacists to name a few. My mother is an RN here in Texas and her policy runs 143 dollars a year through the same company (for part time work she's in her 80's). My understanding on this type of insurance is that the longer you have been operating as a health care professional the more expensive it generally gets because you have more patient contacts over the years and hence more risk. For instance a OBGYN who has been in practice for lets say 18 years has 18 years worth of patients who could sue him whereas one who has been in practice 1 year only has 12 months worth of patients who might sue. At some point people like OBGYN's start paying some major cash. A friend of mine from high school pays 350ish dollars a year for his coverage (he is a dentist) but it was only 120 dollars his first year out of school. Mine will jump to about 100 dollars next year but so far as they have been able to tell me it won't rise much more than that unless I have a claim.
I do have an umbrella policy but I could not find any policies that cover me while working/volunteering. All of the ones I could find specifically exclude most events that occur while you are working in a health care related field. The only coverage my umbrella policy gives me is if I serve on the board of a non profit. My homeowners policy does give me some protection while volunteering but it is limited to 5000 dollars in medical expenses for the injured party and specifically excludes legal coverage costs. My auto policy also excludes coverage for accidents that occur while I am driving any emergency vehicle unless the vehicle is one that I am allowed to take home with me and I am not driving it while on duty (kind of a head scatcher I know)
Again check out this link as it has 10 or 12 case studies of EMS providers that have been sued for various things. Some won some lost but you can bet they all had to get lawyers (their employer probably paid for legal but what if you work for a shoestring outfit?). 

http://www.hpso.com/case-studies/casestudy-index.jsf

I think we might be chasing each other in circles on this one but I do understand where you are coming from. I just think that the chance of an EMT being sued is unlikely but still far greater than being in a plane crash. I would be very interested to hear if anyone here has been named in a lawsuit or has first hand knowledge of someone who was named in a suit.


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## bigbaldguy (Feb 24, 2011)

Out of curiosity I just ran a quote for a first year Nurse Practitioner in family practice working full time for an employer through HPSO. The quote came back at $2,130.50 for a 3,000,000/6,000,000 dollar policy  ouch!

This company does not insure MD's so I couldn't get a quote for an OB/GYN but for a Nurse Practitioner in the OB/GYN field it came back with 2,615.50 for the premium so not too big a difference. Just for comparison the premium for a regular RN is $252.50.


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## emt seeking first job (Feb 24, 2011)

bigbaldguy said:


> Out of curiosity I just ran a quote for a first year Nurse Practitioner in family practice working full time for an employer through HPSO. The quote came back at $2,130.50 for a 3,000,000/6,000,000 dollar policy  ouch!
> 
> This company does not insure MD's so I couldn't get a quote for an OB/GYN but for a Nurse Practitioner in the OB/GYN field it came back with 2,615.50 for the premium so not too big a difference. Just for comparison the premium for a regular RN is $252.50.



That is my point. Its all statistics.

My company, almost 20 years ago, billed around $65/hour for investigators. I saw lawyers bill at $400/hour.


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## emt seeking first job (Feb 24, 2011)

bigbaldguy said:


> This company also insures RN's, nurse practitioners, physicians assistants and pharmacists to name a few. My mother is an RN here in Texas and her policy runs 143 dollars a year through the same company (for part time work she's in her 80's). My understanding on this type of insurance is that the longer you have been operating as a health care professional the more expensive it generally gets because you have more patient contacts over the years and hence more risk. For instance a OBGYN who has been in practice for lets say 18 years has 18 years worth of patients who could sue him whereas one who has been in practice 1 year only has 12 months worth of patients who might sue. At some point people like OBGYN's start paying some major cash. A friend of mine from high school pays 350ish dollars a year for his coverage (he is a dentist) but it was only 120 dollars his first year out of school. Mine will jump to about 100 dollars next year but so far as they have been able to tell me it won't rise much more than that unless I have a claim.
> I do have an umbrella policy but I could not find any policies that cover me while working/volunteering. All of the ones I could find specifically exclude most events that occur while you are working in a health care related field. The only coverage my umbrella policy gives me is if I serve on the board of a non profit. My homeowners policy does give me some protection while volunteering but it is limited to 5000 dollars in medical expenses for the injured party and specifically excludes legal coverage costs. My auto policy also excludes coverage for accidents that occur while I am driving any emergency vehicle unless the vehicle is one that I am allowed to take home with me and I am not driving it while on duty (kind of a head scatcher I know)
> Again check out this link as it has 10 or 12 case studies of EMS providers that have been sued for various things. Some won some lost but you can bet they all had to get lawyers (their employer probably paid for legal but what if you work for a shoestring outfit?).
> 
> ...





Some policies cover you for events in a certain period. Most auto or general libaility policies are like that.  Some policies are claims made, they cover you when a claim is made. And that depends on statute of limitiations, which is 3 years in NYS, past the age of 21 (I think).

I saw cases for things happened to people 15 years ago as a child.

I promise to read through the link later.

I am curious if those EMS people were defended and indemnified by their employers or by personal coverage. If they did not have personal coverage, did they have a personal attorney.

Most case studies address liability issues, damages issues, but not coverage issues. Coverage issues are complicated, a whole other area of insurance.

Just a tidbit, with auto cases, in NYS there is viacrious liability, the owner of the car is on the hook even if her or she was never driving.

When I had a car, I gave people rides, but I NEVER lent it out.


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## emt seeking first job (Feb 24, 2011)

Another tidbit, there are ways to structure one's assets to prevent them being attached.

If you gift moeny to your children, they can not attach it.

Certain retirement accounts can not be attached.

And of course, there are ways to shelter and hide assets and lawyers that specialize in just that.


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## bigbaldguy (Feb 24, 2011)

You crazy New Yorkers and your Yankee ways  Down here in Texas we just A HOLLAR OUT DA WINDAW "SORRY YA'LL" and drive on. :beerchug:


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