# Nursing home resident dead after confrontation with police



## ffemt8978 (Jul 28, 2013)

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...ent-dead-after-confrontation-with-police?lite



> A 95-year-old resident of an Illinois nursing home died early Saturday, hours after being shocked with a Taser and bean bag rounds in a confrontation with police.
> 
> Authorities said John Warna was a resident at Victory Centre of Park Forest, on the 100 block of South Main Street in the south suburb. He was threatening paramedics and staff with a cane and a metal shoehorn when police arrived at the complex, they said.
> 
> Police said they struck him with a Taser and bean bag rounds after he threatened officers with a 12-inch butcher knife.



Are we so afraid for our safety that we let a shoe horn and a cane stop us?  This should have been stopped BEFORE it got to the point of the butcher knife getting involved.


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## Handsome Robb (Jul 28, 2013)

That's crap and you know it.

I don't care how old you are or what mental illness/reduced mental capacity you have you don't threaten myself or my partner's safety. We have every right to go home at the end of the day. I'm sure if he held up a McDonald's and the same result occurred nothing would have been said about it. He pulled a knife on PD as well as brandished an object which could wasily be ised as a weapon, in a threatening manner, at EMS personnel and he faced the consequences just like anyone else. Really doesn't take long for him to drop the cane reach over and grab a knife.

If they'd have tackled him and hurt him there's be a huge article about how the big bad paramedics jumped some old geezer for no reason.



What happened to professional respect for our co-responders and not judging their actions without knowing the full situation? How do you know he wasn't a larger, still capable 95 year old? I've met plenty of 90-100 year old patients who're sharp as a tack and still very physically capable. That article has zero information in it. As a community leader you're supposed to help guide and teach right? But instead you're Monday morning quarterbacking our fellow EMS brothers and sisters. You weren't there, do you know what they did to try and de-escalate the situation prior to the arrival of law enforcement? 

How do we expect to not be messed with if we continually allow people to threaten and/or mess with us without facing the consequences? We need to enforce an "off-limits" approach if we expect things like this to stop.

No wonder we don't get any respect as a profession...we don't even get it from people who are part of our profession.


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## JPINFV (Jul 28, 2013)

"The resident of the faculty was being "involuntarily" committed for  medical treatment by staff at the Victory Centre, the release said."

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...t-20130727_1_park-forest-taser-health-centers

Since nothing has been said justifying the "involuntary commitment" (i.e. someone simply didn't want to go to the hospital, and the SNF staff and ambulance crew thought they could force him to go because... shut up, that's why), wouldn't this be just the poor man standing his ground? Doesn't he have the right to protect himself from being kidnapped?

So, Robb, don't kidnap patients and they won't threaten you with a knife.


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## ffemt8978 (Jul 28, 2013)

Robb said:


> That's crap and you know it.
> 
> I don't care how old you are you don't threaten myself or my partner's safety. He pulled a knife on PD and faced the consequences just like anyone else. Really doesn't take long for him to drop the cane reach over and grab a knife.
> 
> ...



I am not questioning the police actions once the knife came into play.  I am questioning how it was allowed to get to that point in the first place.  Two crew members from the ambulance plus staff from the nursing home were either a) unable to or b) unwilling to disarm the patient or prevent him from getting to the knife in the first place.  

What does it say for our profession and colleagues when we let a patient armed with a cane and shoe horn hold us at bay, thereby allowing him to arm him self with a lethal weapon?


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## Highlander (Jul 28, 2013)

I know he's an older gentlemen, but he pulled a weapon out so I'm going to assume the officers feared for their life, as well as the ems workers. The age is going to be the biggest issue here however this being stated is just my opinion. Also don't they check for weapons at nursing homes? It should of been safe before we walk in.


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## ffemt8978 (Jul 28, 2013)

Highlander said:


> I know he's an older gentlemen, but he pulled a weapon out so I'm going to assume the officers feared for their life, as well as the ems workers. The age is going to be the biggest issue here however this being stated is just my opinion. Also don't they check for weapons at nursing homes? It should of been safe before we walk in.



Like I said, for the most part I have no issues with what happened once the knife came into play.  I am just questioning how it got to that point instead of being stopped beforehand.


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## JPINFV (Jul 28, 2013)

Highlander said:


> I know he's an older gentlemen, but he pulled a weapon out so I'm going to assume the officers feared for their life, as well as the ems workers. The age is going to be the biggest issue here however this being stated is just my opinion. Also don't they check for weapons at nursing homes? It should of been safe before we walk in.




1. Why can't the old guy stand his ground against kidnappers? If Zimmerman can stand his ground against some kid buying skittles and an Arizona Ice Tea, than certainly this qualifies. 

2. Looking up the facility, it looks more like an assisted living apartments than a SNF. Knives are generally found in kitchens.


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## JPINFV (Jul 28, 2013)

ffemt8978 said:


> Like I said, for the most part I have no issues with what happened once the knife came into play.  I am just questioning how it got to that point instead of being stopped beforehand.




Probably somewhere after the old guy wanted to sign out AMA and the crew and facility wouldn't let him.


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## WolfmanHarris (Jul 29, 2013)

I was recently involved in a 3 hour Police standoff with an elderly dementia patient threatening himself and anyone who approached with scissors, extremely agitated. I cannot say enough about how well the scenario was handled. 

Once facility staff were removed to safety, initially arriving PD secured the perimeter and began attempting to talk down the patient. We stoodby in the hallway. 

PD brought in the Emergency Response team, a negotiator and their Shift Commander and took an approach of watch, wait and talk and stoodby until and unless their was an imminent threat to the patient.

From our side we had a Superintendent on scene and brought in ACP for possible sedation if required. 

The patient was brought food and given time to deescalate. 

Finally after a few hours when things got quiet and the patient was no longer answering the negotiator. (They could only get a visual from behind.) PD forced entry as gently as they could from the balcony and found the patient asleep. We transported him without incident.

From the beginning there was team effort and good communication. PD was clear from the beginning that they were hoping to avoid any use of force and we were all on the same page that at its core this was a medical call.


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## mycrofft (Jul 29, 2013)

*Headlines as Rorschach test*

I'd want to see the police report before I started quarterbacking this. The account doesn't parse readily. I wouldn't be calling it or anybody anything based on such a sketchy story.

MM, I understood you at once.

Many facilities like that don't secure their kitchens at all times, so a resident could mosey in and out. Or a family member could bring it in "for self protection" or something like that (weird stuff happens).
------------------------------------------
Reminds me of the Rodney King arrest. We were sitting at lunch at the jail I worked in watching the video, thinking  "Don't those officers know how to take an apparently unarmed guy down??".


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## Handsome Robb (Jul 29, 2013)

JPINFV said:


> 1. Why can't the old guy stand his ground against kidnappers? If Zimmerman can stand his ground against some kid buying skittles and an Arizona Ice Tea, than certainly this qualifies.
> 
> 2. Looking up the facility, it looks more like an assisted living apartments than a SNF. Knives are generally found in kitchens.



Is there an article with more information as to what was going on?

I agree he has every right to refuse to be transported provided he has the capacity to do so. 

Was he an Alzheimer's/dementia patient who was not competent to make decisions regarding his healthcare and the POA agreed that he be transported? Was his sensorium acutely altered? 

No one is arguing that he can't refuse and apparently we all agree that once the knife came into play the actions by PD were appropriate. 

As to FFEMT's question about why someone didn't take the cane and shoehorn away from him before he picked up the knife, I don't know, I wasn't there. At 95 years old I wouldn't be super excited to attempt to take a weapon from this agitated gentleman from a CYA standpoint. It is not my job to disarm people (yes I understand its a cane and metal shoehorn...he's brandishing it in a threatening manner making it a weapon. Side thought, I've seen some very decorative shoe horns with sharp points and what not on them...did the one this gentleman was holding have anything like this? Definitely would make me nervous approaching someone with something that had the potential to become impaled in myself or my partner), that's the police department's job. I can absolutely see the EMS crew being hung out to dry in court because they attempted to take the cane and shoehorn away and ended up injuring the patient (yes, I understand he died but at that point the situation is completely different). 

I'd imagine the EMS crew attempted to talk him down and failed. At some point PD was requested and while waiting for them to respond the knife came into play. Again this is just speculation. Remember "when seconds count the police department is usually minutes away". Same goes for the FD and EMS.


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## JPINFV (Jul 29, 2013)

Robb said:


> Is there an article with more information as to what was going on?



Not anything more than the staff was somehow involuntarily committing him for "medical" treatment. If he had some sort of neurodegenerative or anything that would cause him to be altered, I'm sure it would have been mentioned. 



> I agree he has every right to refuse to be transported provided he has the capacity to do so.
> 
> Was he an Alzheimer's/dementia patient who was not competent to make decisions regarding his healthcare and the POA agreed that he be transported? Was his sensorium acutely altered?


No article I've seen suggests that he was not competent to make decisions. However, I have seen, both as a medical student and as an EMT, hospital staff and nursing home staff believe that any healthcare decision they make is a their way or the highway decision. Just because the assisted living staff says that he has to go doesn't mean that he has to go. Just because the police said he has to go doesn't mean he has to go. Just because the EMTs and paramedics said he has to go doesn't mean he has to go.  Being altered is not "just because." 

The nursing staff at my hospital was going crazy last week because a patient who had a recent NSTEMI decided that the tele equipment was annoying, so he didn't want to wear it, and because he wanted to go outside to smoke. In my opinion, if he wants to go outside and smoke, fine. If he didn't want to be continuously monitored, fine. Sign the AMA (because the obvious advice is to wear the tele monitor and not to smoke) and move on.  He ended up signing AMA and leaving anyways because he wouldn't get an immediate bypass surgery (ignoring that we would have had to transfer him anyways as my hospital doesn't do cardiothoracic surgery). However the paternalism seen in the healthcare community (especially, from what I've seen, in EMS and nursing. Physicians tend to shrug and move on more often than not with these things) is astonishing. 




> No one is arguing that he can't refuse and apparently we all agree that once the knife came into play the actions by PD were appropriate.


If he is being forced against his will and he has capacity, I have no issue with him drawing the knife. Kidnappers are kidnappers, regardless of whether they are police, EMS, or some stranger on the street. Until he was shown to have some issue that precluded his ability to refuse transport, I'm forced to believe that he had the capacity to refuse.


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## Aidey (Jul 29, 2013)

JPINFV said:


> If he is being forced against his will and he has capacity, I have no issue with him drawing the knife. Kidnappers are kidnappers, regardless of whether they are police, EMS, or some stranger on the street. Until he was shown to have some issue that precluded his ability to refuse transport, I'm forced to believe that he had the capacity to refuse.



Its not that simple and you know it. Someone with capacity can still be forced to do something they don't want to do if there is a legal order in place. We take fully alert and oriented people to the hospital against their will all the time because their LRA was revoked, or an order for a 72 hour hold has been issued. You can be competent and still be considered a threat to yourself. 

We very obviously aren't getting all the details. The story says he was alert and talking with EMS when they transported him, and that he died after being transported to a second hospital several hours later. He didn't get hit with the taser and fall over dead like the article title implies.


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## JPINFV (Jul 29, 2013)

Aidey said:


> Its not that simple and you know it. Someone with capacity can still be forced to do something they don't want to do if there is a legal order in place. We take fully alert and oriented people to the hospital against their will all the time because their LRA was revoked, or an order for a 72 hour hold has been issued. You can be competent and still be considered a threat to yourself.



I don't hold that someone who is on a 72 hour hold for being a danger to themselves, danger to others, or gravely disabled due to a psychiatric order to be someone who has capacity. Capacity isn't A/Ox4. 

Also LRA?


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## Aidey (Jul 29, 2013)

LRA is "least restrictive alternative". It is basically parole for people who are on an extended involuntary hold, or who have a history of frequent holds. They figure out the least restrictive environment for you where you can still get the support you need, and they outline conditions you must meet, like going to therapy or taking your meds, or not using drugs or whatever. If you don't meet the outlined conditions your LRA will get revoked, and you will be placed back on an involuntary hold.


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## Handsome Robb (Jul 29, 2013)

JPINFV said:


> Not anything more than the staff was somehow involuntarily committing him for "medical" treatment. If he had some sort of neurodegenerative or anything that would cause him to be altered, I'm sure it would have been mentioned.
> 
> 
> No article I've seen suggests that he was not competent to make decisions. However, I have seen, both as a medical student and as an EMT, hospital staff and nursing home staff believe that any healthcare decision they make is a their way or the highway decision. Just because the assisted living staff says that he has to go doesn't mean that he has to go. Just because the police said he has to go doesn't mean he has to go. Just because the EMTs and paramedics said he has to go doesn't mean he has to go.  Being altered is not "just because."
> ...



Alright, we've established he*potentially* has the right to refuse. Without more information about the situation we can't determine if he had the capacity to refuse or not. You can be "forced" to believe whatever you want. Pick another point to argue because we're beating a dead horse. I will point out that I have my once disagreed with you about patients at these facilities being able to refuse if they are competent.

How do we know he wasn't being placed on a legal hold for danger to himself,  (legal 2000, 5150, whatever your state calls it). Just because he is elderly doesn't mean he can't be suicidal. In fact per the CDC patients 85 years and older have the second highest suicide rate when categorized by age. Also males have a higher suicide rate than females. I'm not going to get into an ethical debate about suicide, I'm not saying he was suicidal just presenting a scenario.

http://www.afsp.org/understanding-suicide/facts-and-figures

The fact that he pulled a knife leads me to believe there's more to this story. Yes, kidnapping is wrong I'm not arguing that fact either but look at the situation. We have staff calling for an ambulance transport, an EMS crew that seemed to think it was a necessary one (I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, I agree that there are a lot of EMS folks out there that fit your description) and finally you have the police department that showed up. The question is did the knife come out before or after they arrived. Before and it doesn't really have any relevance to whether it was appropriate or not but if it came out after they arrived I tend to believe there was a reason this gentleman was going to the hospital and there wasn't an AMA option. 

EMS education bashes "everyone needs to go" and "if they don't go they could die" into students' heads over and over again. That's why many have trouble with AMAs. 

It's sad that he died, I'm not trying to disregard that, I apologize if that's how I came off. My thoughts go out to his family.


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## Clipper1 (Jul 29, 2013)

If his behavior was out of character for him, he needs to go someplace. If this is the first time he has acted irrational, you don't just take "no" for an answer and walk away.  It could be as simple as a medication reaction between a new med or something he might have inadvertently taken in combo, including OTC, or too much. Labs can be drawn to see if it is an easily fixed situation and there are psych facilities which specialize in diagnosing and treating geriatric patients for both short and long term.  

 Unfortunately it seems no one at this scene had enough information or experience with geriatrics to understand their potential. Anyone who has ever worked in a LTC facility or hospital know their ability to become violent for many reasons.  They will use anything for a weapon including knives. But, usually they do not need to be killed to be stopped. Most of the time they can be diverted from the objects which can be used as a weapon. Had this occurred in a SNF, nursing home or hospital the outcome would probably have been very different.  Chances are in this situation, there were probably several men wearing uniforms and very intimidating to an old man in his space. We also don't know how many memories came back to him maybe even from a concentration camp just like the Vietnam vets and their experiences.


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## DrParasite (Jul 29, 2013)

ffemt8978 said:


> Are we so afraid for our safety that we let a shoe horn and a cane stop us?  This should have been stopped BEFORE it got to the point of the butcher knife getting involved.


If he takes the cane and gives one person a concussion (lucky shot), and another a broken arm or leg (another lucky shot), is that enough to warrant a response?

he was armed with a knife.  should the police have waited for him to stab someone to shoot him, in order to justify their actions?

even if you are crazy or demented, you can still cause harm and death to another person, and I am not blaming the officers for their actions in the slightest


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## Aidey (Jul 29, 2013)

Clipper1 said:


> They will use anything for a weapon including knives. But, usually they do not need to be killed to be stopped.



They didn't kill him to stop him. He didn't die on scene. He was awake and talking on scene, and died hours later after being transferred to a second hospital.


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## ffemt8978 (Jul 29, 2013)

ffemt8978 said:


> Like I said, for the most part I have no issues with what happened once the knife came into play.  I am just questioning how it got to that point instead of being stopped beforehand.





DrParasite said:


> If he takes the cane and gives one person a concussion (lucky shot), and another a broken arm or leg (another lucky shot), is that enough to warrant a response?
> 
> he was armed with a knife.  should the police have waited for him to stab someone to shoot him, in order to justify their actions?
> 
> even if you are crazy or demented, you can still cause harm and death to another person, and I am not blaming the officers for their actions in the slightest


Do I have to say it again?


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## Jim37F (Jul 29, 2013)

ffemt8978 said:


> http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...ent-dead-after-confrontation-with-police?lite
> 
> 
> 
> Are we so afraid for our safety that we let a shoe horn and a cane stop us?  This should have been stopped BEFORE it got to the point of the butcher knife getting involved.



I can't help but think that of one of the paramedics tried to subdue/disarm him and wound up getting cracked in the head with the cane and needed treatment themselves then we'd be crucifying him for NOT doing exactly what they ended up doing, backing off and calling LE for a situation they clearly felt escalated beyond their control. After all, aren't we all pretty much taught from day one in Basic school that scene/personal safety is always the number one priority for an EMT/Medic?


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## Handsome Robb (Jul 29, 2013)

Thank you, Jim.


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## Clipper1 (Jul 29, 2013)

Aidey said:


> They didn't kill him to stop him. He didn't die on scene. He was awake and talking on scene, and died hours later after being transferred to a second hospital.



If you would read what I had written you will notice it was written in general terms towards elderly patients.  Anytime you use a taser or any type of weapon against someone old enough to be a geriatric the chance of death is very high.


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## Rialaigh (Jul 29, 2013)

I guess my comment would be, why not give the guy what he wants...whether he was altered or not why not just give him what he wants. He's 95 years old, and unless he was actively bleeding out right there then I am guessing EMS personnel couldn't get close enough to do any kind of evaluation that would determine something imminently life threatening. He doesn't want EMS there, then I have no problem leaving, he doesn't want law enforcement there, then you leave a cop or two outside his door out of sight and get him a sandwich and a coke and wait an hour or two, go in when hes napping or after he has set all the weapons away from him, and have EMS come back out and transport for a psych and medical eval and then have him placed in an appropriate facility. 

But seriously, unless the guy is actively threatening to slit his own throat, just have someone talk to him, make everyone else get out of sight, and give him whatever he wants....


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## Rialaigh (Jul 29, 2013)

Also on second thought, I would be interested in hearing an explanation on why pepper spray was not an option or was not used in a situation like this. I'm not a law enforcement professional but from this side of the tracks it would seem a lot less risky then firing a taser at a 95 year old.....again, I can only guess but would be very curious as to why not that...


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## mycrofft (Jul 29, 2013)

*This is ridiculous. It's a SNF and the article is sketchy at best.*

This occurred in a nursing home. Not the patient's home, not a public venue like a bar or a sidewalk. SNF's are private facilities with a common duty to provide safety and service to all , and if one individual decides to disrupt it, out he or she can go in a manner consistent with common sense and safety. Dialing 911 if a pt gets assaultive is not inconsistent.

"Stand you ground" is hogwash in a SNF.

"If he is being forced against his will and he has capacity, I have no issue with him drawing the knife". With all due respect, that is fruit way out on the end of the thin limb of argument, or a pretty good bit of sarcasm. It's A SNF. No "Strangers" pulled a nursing home invasion. .

I move that EMTLIFE stops posting headlines. :glare: They nearly always generate more static than meaningful discussion.


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## JPINFV (Jul 29, 2013)

mycrofft said:


> This occurred in a nursing home. Not the patient's home, not a public venue like a bar or a sidewalk. SNF's are private facilities with a common duty to provide safety and service to all , and if one individual decides to disrupt it, out he or she can go in a manner consistent with common sense and safety. Dialing 911 if a pt gets assaultive is not inconsistent.



Their website advertises it as a senior living apartment complex, not a SNF. 



> "Stand you ground" is hogwash in a SNF.



So if I'm attacked in a SNF I can't defend myself? Never mind that it isn't actually a SNF, it's the man's apartment. 



> "If he is being forced against his will and he has capacity, I have no issue with him drawing the knife". With all due respect, that is fruit way out on the end of the thin limb of argument, or a pretty good bit of sarcasm. It's A SNF. No "Strangers" pulled a nursing home invasion. .



It doesn't matter whether their strangers or not. If he has capacity, and nothing so far says that he didn't, does it matter? So if your neighbor is physically forcing you to go someplace you don't want to go, you should just go because you know them?


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## mycrofft (Jul 29, 2013)

*Again, five is four. I'm talking about the thread.*

From the article:

"A 95-year-old resident of an Illinois nursing home died early Saturday, hours after being shocked with a Taser and bean bag rounds in a confrontation with police."
===========
You can't have a resident at a housing or nursing  or medical or movie or any other facility brandishing a real or simulated weapon or attacking people with common household articles. Period. Common sense. If my mom's facility let a resident stay who was threatening people she'd be out, and the majority of the other residents would be too. In real life, the offender would be out first, and if it escalated , via 911. If someone was doing it on my street I'd be on 911 and awaiting them if they turned onto my front walk.

The only way this parallels a man or woman demanding their personal space or defending their home with deadly force is through irony.

JPINV, _you're_ a good egg, but this _*thread*_ has gone past the realistic world and into lala land. 

PS: again, I wasn't there, but the police measures AS DESCRIBED IN THIS SKETCHY REPORT seem excessive. 

PPS: sidebar: isn't it ironic that persons who may be at most risk *from* being tasered (PCP or crank psychosis, elderly demented, uncooperative due to physiologic or pharmacologic reasons) are amongst those most likely *to be* tasered...instead of hit with a baton, choked out, shot, hit with sap gloves....they can be unruly or uncooperative because they are undergoing a lethal event already/anyway, like a CVA, intoxication due renal or hepatic failure, OD, polypharmacy, etc.


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## ffemt8978 (Jul 29, 2013)

It has now been ruled a homicide.

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loca...home-park-forest-217441891.html#ixzz2aUbUERv2



> Saturday's death of a 95-year-old nursing home resident who was shocked by a Taser and struck with bean bag rounds during a confrontation with police has been ruled a homicide by officials in the Cook County Medical Examiner's Office.
> 
> An autopsy showed John Warna died of blunt force trauma to the abdomen from being hit with the bean bags.
> 
> Officials at the Victory Centre of Park Forest, the south suburban home where Warna lived, said the man was displaying "unusually aggressive behavior" on Friday evening. When police arrived, they said Warna was threatening paramedics and staff with a cane and a metal shoehorn.



So when the police arrived, he was armed with only a cane and a shoehorn...then he had the time to arm himself with a butcher knife while the police just happened to have a 12ga with bean bag rounds present?


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## mycrofft (Jul 29, 2013)

ffemt8978 said:


> It has now been ruled a homicide.
> 
> http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loca...home-park-forest-217441891.html#ixzz2aUbUERv2
> 
> ...



Someone who is still standing is not getting away from this unscathed now. Clear case of excessive force, cause of death found to be blunt force trauma.


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## chaz90 (Jul 29, 2013)

Isn't every police involved death technically a homicide though? I'm no expert, but homicide is really just one human killing another. Some end up being ruled justified or "manslaughter," but they all fit under the broad homicide definition.


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## Aidey (Jul 29, 2013)

It was a 2 ft metal shoe horn, that can cause some serious damage.

And the a number of the cops around here keep bean bag rounds in their car. The first cop on scene could have radioed for back up and advised what was going on.


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## JPINFV (Jul 29, 2013)

mycrofft said:


> From the article:
> 
> "A 95-year-old resident of an Illinois nursing home died early Saturday, hours after being shocked with a Taser and bean bag rounds in a confrontation with police."



"The Victory Centre of Park Forest, a supportive living community for  adults 65 and older according to its website, is at that address."

- http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...t-20130727_1_park-forest-taser-health-centers

Also...

http://www.pathwaysl.com/community/victory-centre-park-forest




> The only way this parallels a man or woman demanding their personal space or defending their home with deadly force is through irony.


So senior apartments are no longer a home?




> JPINV, _you're_ a good egg, but this _*thread*_ has gone past the realistic world and into lala land.


I think the same thing about everyone who says that Zimmerman can stalk someone, and then shoot them when confronted over his stalking. 

I also think that we do a drastic disservice to our patients and facilities to their residents, when we gang up on them in order to push our will on them.


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## ffemt8978 (Jul 29, 2013)

Aidey said:


> It was a 2 ft metal shoe horn, that can cause some serious damage.
> 
> And the a number of the cops around here keep bean bag rounds in their car. The first cop on scene could have radioed for back up and advised what was going on.



Maybe, but considering the minimum range for bean bag rounds is 25 feet we're going to have to wait to see how far away he was when the rounds were fired.


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## ffemt8978 (Jul 29, 2013)

chaz90 said:


> Isn't every police involved death technically a homicide though? I'm no expert, but homicide is really just one human killing another. Some end up being ruled justified or "manslaughter," but they all fit under the broad homicide definition.



Correct.


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## Handsome Robb (Jul 30, 2013)

Redacted because I'm just going to get myself into trouble.

Homicide doesn't mean anyone is in trouble... :wacko:


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## Rialaigh (Jul 30, 2013)

ffemt8978 said:


> Maybe, but considering the minimum range for bean bag rounds is 25 feet we're going to have to wait to see how far away he was when the rounds were fired.



Good point, If he was inside the facility then I have a hard time seeing it being more than 25 feet but it could be...


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## ffemt8978 (Jul 30, 2013)

Robb said:


> Redacted because I'm just going to get myself into trouble.
> 
> Homicide doesn't mean anyone is in trouble... :wacko:



True.  All it means is that he died from blunt force trauma due to the bean bag rounds, and not a natural disease or process.


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## Handsome Robb (Jul 30, 2013)

I'm surprised no one has tried to hang the hospital yet. Seeing as he died there and all. How long was he there before he coded? What kinda of imaging, diagnostics and treatment did he receive? Was he restrained and locked in a room until he calmed down or was he immediately evaluated for the abdominal trauma and tazing? Was a FAST exam preformed? If so, what did it find? Was this facility capable ot providing the ibterventions required to save this man's life? was he a DNR? What kind of meds was this guy on? Anticoagulant/platelet therapy plus blunt  force trauma to the abdomen has the potential to be very bad very fast. 

Too many unanswered questions to provide any real discussion without making massive assumptions.


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## Rialaigh (Jul 31, 2013)

I think it would be easy to agree that less risky alternatives to a taser and bean bag rounds could/should have been pretty easy to come up with in most situations that I think we could imagine...pepper spray anyone? It should be as much of a learning lesson even if the situation was handled appropriately, could it have been handled better....based on all available information I would say it could have been handled much better...


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## Aidey (Jul 31, 2013)

Pepper spray in a assisted living home is a bad idea to me. You've got a vulnerable population and probably whole building ventilation system. You could turn the situation into an MCI.


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## Aidey (Jul 31, 2013)

ffemt8978 said:


> True.  All it means is that he died from blunt force trauma due to the bean bag rounds, and not a natural disease or process.



It doesn't even mean that. A natural process complicated by another person's actions is still homicide. So he could have had a  leaking AAA and they'd still call it homicide.


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## Handsome Robb (Jul 31, 2013)

Aidey said:


> Pepper spray in a assisted living home is a bad idea to me. You've got a vulnerable population and probably whole building ventilation system. You could turn the situation into an MCI.



I was thinking the same thing... Blast him with OC and watch the entire home need to be transported.


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## Rialaigh (Jul 31, 2013)

Aidey said:


> Pepper spray in a assisted living home is a bad idea to me. You've got a vulnerable population and probably whole building ventilation system. You could turn the situation into an MCI.



Fair nuff, but I'm sure with about 20 minutes of thought we could each come up with a couple things better than a taser and shotgun in this situation


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## Carlos Danger (Jul 31, 2013)

Robb said:


> What happened to professional respect for our co-responders and not judging their actions without knowing the full situation? How do you know he wasn't a larger, still capable 95 year old? I've met plenty of 90-100 year old patients who're sharp as a tack and still very physically capable. That article has zero information in it.



The problem is that police tactics in general have evolved to be much more aggressive than they used to be. It is part of an intentional strategy of mitigating officer risk by quickly neutralizing "threats". It's why you see SWAT teams used to break down doors for things that they used to send 1 or 2 officers to knock on and then politely ask questions about. 

The news is absolutely filled with stories of cops shooting unarmed people, shooting small dogs and even children, beating people in handcuffs, using SWAT teams to raid homes of people who aren't even suspected of violent crimes, etc. 

I'm certainly not saying all cops are bad, but these incidents are not isolated and are an unintended effect of a deliberate strategy. Cops these days are taught to be aggressive and to interpret any resistance at all as a serious threat and to accept very little risk to themselves. It is a big part of the culture at many police agencies. 



Robb said:


> No wonder we don't get any respect as a profession...we don't even get it from people who are part of our profession.



If we aren't allowed to speculate at all, then there is no sense in discussing anything, really, since none of us ever know the whole story and the whole truth about anything, unless we were actually there. We would literally have almost nothing to talk about.

I generally try to withhold judgment and give the benefit of the doubt, but it gets harder and harder to do the more you read about these things. So I can't really help it when I question that 4+ presumably young and fit paramedics, officers, and staff had no choice at all but to use violence to subdue an elderly patient who almost certainly has serious co-morbidities and was probably just suffering an episode of delirium.

I know I wasn't there, but I find it extremely unlikely that there really was no other option.

As both a citizen and an EMS professional, I think this is a very worthy topic to discuss.


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