# Volunteer VS Paid



## njff/emt (Mar 11, 2010)

I'm on combination fire dept., and we're kinda at war with each other., I know it's stupid and sad but the fact is I know that my department isn't the only one., The main problem besides the paid chief switching the mutual aid line up (that pissed off our neighboring township districts), is simply that I believe that some of them forgot where they came from., Don't get me wrong there is a group of great guys that we have no problems with, it's just certain individuals that treat us as if we don't know anything., The same goes for the paid EMS workers bad mouthing the vollie FAS for no reason., One of their arguments was the fact that the FAS has 3 different colored rigs, to which I say WHO CARES?., If I'm having a medical emergency they could show up in a bright pink ambulance and I would go., Point is as long as they do something to help save my *** why does it matter the color of their rig? Granted they have 3 different colored rigs, but they are people like me who donate their free time to help others in great time of need. So, I was wondering if anybody might have a clue of why alot of paid staff bash volunteers., Is it simply they think volunteers are useless, or that alot of them never got accepted by volunteers., Please any possible insight would help.


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## Foxbat (Mar 11, 2010)

Try searching the forum. No offense, but this is probably the most beaten-to-death topic on every fire and EMS forum in the US. On this forum alone, there have been dozens of threads on this.


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## Lifeguards For Life (Mar 11, 2010)

Foxbat said:


> Try searching the forum. No offense, but this is probably the most beaten-to-death topic on every fire and EMS forum in the US. On this forum alone, there have been dozens of threads on this.



dozens of locked threads at that.


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## EMTinNEPA (Mar 11, 2010)




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## JPINFV (Mar 11, 2010)

njff/emt said:


> The main problem besides the paid chief switching the mutual aid line up (that pissed off our neighboring township districts), is simply that I believe that some of them forgot where they came from.



1. So everyone there began as a volly?

2. Just because someone was once in a specific cohort doesn't mean that they are forever required to support said cohort.


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## DrParasite (Mar 11, 2010)

I love it when people say paid isn't as good as volunteer, especially when they all go through the same training, often side by side (at least the initial stuff).  and most of the time paid paid and volunteer have the same CEU requirements.  absolutely amazing, esp considering some volunteer EMS systems are busier than paid ones.

Before the thread gets locked, I figured I would throw my 2 cents, since I know a little bit about your particular situation.  In our field, appearance does count for something.   Having and wearing uniforms is just one particular thing that often separates paid and volunteer agencies.  No offense to your town, but your ambulances are embarrassing.  They are (although that FA 2 is a sharp looking truck).  http://www.carteretfirstaid.org/equipment.htm in case anyone was wondering.  It doesn't exactly inspire confidence, and you never see any other public safety agencies decorated like they are.

When I used to be in  upstate NY, my department (combo) had 3 of their neighbors to the east on their box alarms for structure fires.  all three depts are also combo departments.  this was done regardless of the fact that another department IN THE SAME TOWN had two stations, always got out, and were well trained (or so I was told).  But they were 100% volunteer, so we never called them for major incidents, and they never called us.  

I happen to know that FF1 and 2 for paid and volunteer FFs in NJ are exactly the same.  Ditto EMT certs.  So we all start out the same, and probably attend academies together.  But somehow once you start getting paid, you are automatically better.

If you want to piss off the paid EMTs, just tell them they are equal to Able ambulance. or one of a dozen transport companies in the area.  trust me, they don't like it when you make that extremely accurate if not unflattering comparison.

One thing I have said is that many paid EMTs could never cut it as active volunteers.  It's pretty easy to work 12 hours and then go home.  it's another thing to work 8-12 hours, then go home to your wife/husband, leave your bed at 2am to answer a 911 call, and then go to work again the next morning. And answer any calls where the scheduled crew is already on a call.  and attending meetings, trainings, and teach new people who are coming into this field knowing nothing about EMS.  

And I say this all as a paid Hub City and paid Brick City EMT and (as of yesterday) former volunteer EMT.


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## JPINFV (Mar 11, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> In our field, appearance does count for something.   Having and wearing uniforms is just one particular thing that often separates paid and volunteer agencies.  No offense to your town, but your ambulances are embarrassing.



Meh. The paint schemes are fine. If anything the two big issues are the 3 completely different paint schemes (slight differences due to age or different ambulance models are one thing, but when you can't decide on a standard set of colors to use...) and the over the top logos. Sure, the people requesting service might not care at that moment, however if you're trying to earn respect from the community at large, the government, or other agencies, then yes, a standardized paint scheme goes a long way. After all, it's better to be seen than felt and none of those ambulances look as funny as an ambulance with Battenburg markings and chevrons. Of course if I ever am in a position to determine the color scheme of an ambulance, it's going to include Battenburg markings and chevrons.


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## MrBrown (Mar 11, 2010)

Lets face it, volunteers are bad for professional standards and education.

Look at those States in Australia and how much higher thier education standards are compared to Western Australia and the Northern Territory who still use volunteers.

Same here; there is much disparity between a Paramedic or Intensive Care Paramedic with a Bachelors Degree or higher and an Ambulance Technician who has the Diploma which is "realistically achievable for volunteer staff"


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## Foxbat (Mar 12, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> When I used to be in  upstate NY, my department (combo) had 3 of their neighbors to the east on their box alarms for structure fires.  all three depts are also combo departments.  this was done regardless of the fact that another department IN THE SAME TOWN had two stations, always got out, and were well trained (or so I was told).  But they were 100% volunteer, so we never called them for major incidents, and they never called us.


It can be even funnier...
A certain big city career FD in my area signed a mutual aid agreement with a neighboring combo FD so the combo FD responds to the city with their air cart during big incidents. One of the terms in the agreement was that only paid personnel could respond into the city. Who cares that paid guys and vollies in that combo dept. respond together while in their district, train together, go through fire academy together?
At one occasion, there were two large working fires at the same time. City was overwhelmed, they needed to refill many cylinders fast, otherwise they would had to switch to defensive operations. OIC requested an air cart from a certain all-volunteer department to the scene. You can imagine the, uhm, criticism OIC got at a certain local fire discussion board. How dared he use scab labour?
Gotta love this debate.


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## Foxbat (Mar 12, 2010)

MrBrown said:


> Look at those States in Australia and how much higher thier education standards are compared to Western Australia and the Northern Territory who still use volunteers.


But then, look at Israel. Their paramedics have, I think, 3 year degrees (IDF's paramedics are a different story, though) and are mostly paid. Volunteer EMTs usually act, basically, as an extra set of hands. Oh, and they have physicians on some of their trucks too.
I think there are a few members here who volunteered for Magen David Adom, maybe they will tell more about their system?
It's all about _how_ you incorporate volunteers into the system.


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## PotatoMedic (Mar 12, 2010)

Call me racist... but for some reason career vs volley arguments always remind me of white vs black arguments. 

There is no bloody point to them since everyone is the same.


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## JPINFV (Mar 12, 2010)

FireWA1 said:


> Call me racist... but for some reason career vs volley arguments always remind me of white vs black arguments.
> 
> There is no bloody point to them since everyone is the same.



I'll believe that when you start using a welder who volunteers as a physician for your primary care physician.


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## PotatoMedic (Mar 12, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> I'll believe that when you start using a welder who volunteers as a physician for your primary care physician.



Where can I sign up?  Hell I will see any physician as long as they are properly certified.

Just because they are a welder does not mean they should not be held to the same standards as career physicians.


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## JPINFV (Mar 12, 2010)

The problem is that the volunteers are one of the major forces fighting against higher educational requirments. So medical school should be easier then so that the welder who wants to volunteer as a physician can make it through medical school on a part time basis.


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## SanDiegoEmt7 (Mar 12, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> I'll believe that when you start using a welder who volunteers as a physician for your primary care physician.



A welder that had is MD/DO and volunteered in clinics? sounds like an interesting person to meet.


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## fortsmithman (Mar 12, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> The problem is that the volunteers are one of the major forces fighting against higher educational requirments. So medical school should be easier then so that the welder who wants to volunteer as a physician can make it through medical school on a part time basis.



I'm with a volly/paid on call service and I do want higher education requirements.  They are as follows

EMT should be a 2 year diploma (Canada) associates degree(USA)
Paramedic should be a 4 year bachelors degree


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## PotatoMedic (Mar 12, 2010)

Did I ever say we should lower standards.  No.  I said we should be held to the same standards.  I am not one for lowering standards since they are set for a reason.  If they change they should change in a manner that improves service and care.

I am sorry that where you are there is a large separation in care and cont. ed. between vollies and career personnel. I personally have not met a volunteer who was satisfied with the training that they got and did not want to try to learn better ways to help someone.

Let me go back to my first statement about career vs volley arguments (which I will admit I need to rephrase just slightly).

There is no bloody point to them since everyone should be the same.

It is sad that they are not where you are and that they are dragging the system down.  Please let me know where you live so I can avoid that part of the nation.

Well I.m done with this since it can go back a forth all day and I need to sleep.


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## scottyb (Mar 12, 2010)

There are so many lengthy and locked threads on this issue, because it always causes heated debate.  I think this discussion/argument has run its course many times over.


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## Chimpie (Mar 12, 2010)

I agree.  Thread closed.


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