# Private EMT Training



## FireMedic236 (Aug 24, 2008)

Does anyone know of private EMT Training.  Either one on one in a classroom setting or the instructor making house calls.  I have a friend who is interested in taking EMT-B but does not want to be in a class with a bunch of other people. Anyone ever heard of such a thing?
Thanks


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## Ridryder911 (Aug 24, 2008)

No nor would I ever suggest such a thing. EMS and health care is a "people business". It involves talking, touching and interacting with people. That's what it is all about. 

I had a student once that did not want to participate and touch/be touched by other students. I expelled her. One cannot perform this job adequately without interactions between each other. One cannot practice successfully or gain thorough and adequate knowledge (tactile stimulus) without practicing upon a live person and only fair to experience what the patient experiences as well. 

I am afraid your friend has a misconception of what the profession and job maybe about. Not to be rude, but if one has a such interaction disorder, this would not be an area to focus upon. 

R/r 911


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## MMiz (Aug 24, 2008)

First, welcome to EMTLife!

In EMT school I was touched, lifted, nudged, and moved.  People did a full trauma assessment with their hands, while verbalizing the genital sweep, and reached around me to find the correct placement for Heimlich maneuver.

My fellow students were men, women, fat, and skinny.  I quickly learned that actual hands-on practice is essential in order to properly learn a skill.  I honestly *never* had an incident or heard of an incident in our class where someone felt as though the touching was inappropriate or crossed the line.

I'm sure you could find someone to teach the program to you individually, but it would cost several thousand dollars.  EMS is a "people" profession, and it's essential that you learn teamwork and push your boundaries before you jump on the rig.

I hope that helps!


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## firecoins (Aug 24, 2008)

Is this really due to a social issue or is it really because this "friend" feels that one on one they would learn the material better one on one?


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## Tiberius (Aug 24, 2008)

There is no way an EMT class can be taught in anything other than a classroom setting. Besides, how are you going to practice your skills with just the instructor? How are you going to perform the log roll while maintaining in-line c-spine stabilization while practicing your skills by yourself for the LSB? It can't be done without your classmates.


EMT students come to form a bond between each other from practicing these skills repeatedly together. As the class goes on, they tend to care about their fellow classmates passing the class and the practicals since they spent time working together. Kind of like the relationship you would have with your partners when you work for a service. It all starts in the classroom.


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## Ridryder911 (Aug 24, 2008)

Tiberius said:


> There is no way an EMT class can be taught in anything other than a classroom setting.






I'll let you know, I am assisting in a new study of Paramedic on-line. Yes, they will have a lab in person ( this is where I come in) but technically no class room setting. I reviewed the material it is very thorough, no one will  just get by.

R/r 911


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## Tiberius (Aug 25, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> I'll let you know, I am assisting in a new study of Paramedic on-line. Yes, they will have a lab in person ( this is where I come in) but technically no class room setting. I reviewed the material it is very thorough, no one will  just get by.
> 
> R/r 911



Sounds interesting, Rid...and thanks for the 'correction', as it were; I didn't take into account on-line courses...I was trying to convey the fact that in one's original EMT class it is ideal to take it in a classroom setting since hands-on when someone is getting started is essential to learning the skills needed, as well as for the other reasons I stated earlier. To me, it's better to do the original in a classroom, then any/most CE hours can be done online.

Just curious, Rid, are you referring to an original EMT-P course that you're assisting with?


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## Ridryder911 (Aug 25, 2008)

Yeah, we are trying a new way of teaching. Personally, I am NOT a fan of on-line courses; I know some can be taught very well (i.e theory type) but I still prefer in class room for most. I do realize though, this 2008 and things are changing. 

The entire Paramedic portion will be on line, with the ability to receive an Associate Degree. The college I am teaching at is one of the prestigious Paramedic programs around. They have had a EMS degree type program for over 30 years and are Nationally Accredited by CoEMSP and all the other EMS preference educational organizations. 

I have to admit, there has been a lot of debate that should we attempt or not to. We feel that if it is to be done, we much rather attempt it than a trade or program that does not have experienced educators. There are areas in the remote part of the State that does not have access to higher education for Paramedic training. I much rather have the lecture, study guide, and test be administered by an experienced expert EMS Educator than from a poor instructor in person. This College has a long experience of on line courses.

I have reviewed some of the material and requirements of the on line Paramedic curriculum and it will NOT be easy or less time. In fact, for those of us that have taken similar on line courses usually can attest that they are much more difficult and thorough than some of the traditional classes. We will see... I will be the Chief Lab Instructor. Their labs will be conducted at the College and will be at least 8 hrs a day over a period of time. I know the patient assessment skills I have designed will be over 16 hrs in length itself. With more in depth requirements (using ophthalmoscope, otoscope, reflexes, neuro, O.B. assessment, vent care, etc.). Clinical time will be greatly in depth as well, with clinical instructors at clinical sites to ensure that the students have adhered and met the objectives. There is already a "no-nonsense" policy for all students. The program has no problems sending students home or suggesting another program. This has improved the attitudes of the clinical sites and increased the areas more for the students. 

Maybe this will be an alternative that should be considered. We will have to wait and see what the results will be. 

R/r 911


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## Tiberius (Aug 25, 2008)

I can definitely see the point with attempting on-line courses rather than someone else less experienced.....best of luck with it!!!


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## reaper (Aug 25, 2008)

Rid,

Please make sure this online program is done correctly. I have seen many medics come out of online courses, that have no clue of what is going on with a pt. These were courses that were set up the same way. Class time online and labs in person.

I wonder how they even passed the labs. I knew one person that went back and took the Paramedic program at another college. He had come to realize that he had not received a quality education. So, he took it upon himself, to take the course over again.

I think there is a spot for online programs, like you stated. Just make sure that students are not slipping through with no understanding of the basic knowledge.

Hope you can set this up the way it needs to be done. I would love to see a program that people in rural areas can take part in. This will bring ALS care to areas that may never have had a chance to have it before.


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## bstone (Aug 25, 2008)

I'm not going to do anything to a patient that I am not willing to do to a fellow classmate of mine. I got really big veins so when we were learning IV therapy in Intermediate school they used me for starting lines. I had 4 bandages on each arm each class! Talk about getting intimate with your fellow students!


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## bstone (Aug 25, 2008)

Regarding the paramedic online, I think it can be done but it has to be heavily monitoried and perhaps even require a week or some sort of "boot camp" done at the college.


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## VentMedic (Aug 25, 2008)

I am no more for an online Paramedic program than I am for the online entry level RN. 

I believe you should be shown things as you learn them and not with a couple of weeks of crash labs and clinicals. There is little time to reinforce difficult areas or weak spots the student may have during these clinicals. 

A couple of these programs teach the book stuff, do a week of lab and then give the students a list of approved clinical providers for ride time. Not a whole lot of oversight.

Online is fine for some classes that require no hands on or for advanced classes as a continuation of the basics once entry level certification of the Paramedic is obtained. For example; finishing the Associates on line.


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## Jon (Aug 25, 2008)

It sounds like Rid is trying something different. I'm intrested to see how it turns out.


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## FireMedic236 (Aug 26, 2008)

Ok.  First of all, I know you don’t know me from anyone else.  But I will tell you I am not a new EMT and by no means am I just an EMT.  I don’t need to explain to anyone my medical background and experience...especially on a forum.  I am simply here to get some answers.  My friend is just looking to become an EMT.  Not to work on a meat wagon somewhere.  He already has a career and has always been interested in being able to help someone in need.  He also has a pool and two little kids.  I don’t understand the mentality of someone who wants to discourage learning, especially in a field that can only help society.  I think it is funny that you (Ridryder) say that you expelled someone for not wanting to touch or be touched but yet you are participating in an online course, particularly a PARAMEDIC course... hmmm sounds like a contradiction.  My friend happens to be a very famous celebrity and would feel extremely out of place in a classroom full of other students.  Again I still don’t understand why anyone would want to discourage anyone from wanting to become an EMT.  Not everyone who is interested in becoming an EMT wants to work on an ambulance.  Also,  I never said this individual would not participate in the skills portion of the testing process.  I was just simply looking for an answer to a question.


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## reaper (Aug 26, 2008)

If you come back with responses like that, no one will give you a good answer. If all your friend wants is to help people or save his family, then he would be better off with a Heartsaver with first aid course. Which can be taught by a BLS instructor.

If the friend is a famous person, then they would already know that they can flash the cash and get anything done privately. I'm sure they could pay to have a private EMT course done, if that is what they want.


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## bstone (Aug 26, 2008)

FireMedic236 said:


> Ok.  First of all, I know you don’t know me from anyone else.  But I will tell you I am not a new EMT and by no means am I just an EMT.  I don’t need to explain to anyone my medical background and experience...especially on a forum.  I am simply here to get some answers.  My friend is just looking to become an EMT.  Not to work on a meat wagon somewhere.  He already has a career and has always been interested in being able to help someone in need.  He also has a pool and two little kids.  I don’t understand the mentality of someone who wants to discourage learning, especially in a field that can only help society.  I think it is funny that you (Ridryder) say that you expelled someone for not wanting to touch or be touched but yet you are participating in an online course, particularly a PARAMEDIC course... hmmm sounds like a contradiction.  My friend happens to be a very famous celebrity and would feel extremely out of place in a classroom full of other students.  Again I still don’t understand why anyone would want to discourage anyone from wanting to become an EMT.  Not everyone who is interested in becoming an EMT wants to work on an ambulance.  Also,  I never said this individual would not participate in the skills portion of the testing process.  I was just simply looking for an answer to a question.




uh oh....:excl::excl::excl:


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## akflightmedic (Aug 26, 2008)

I am available for the right amount of $$$.


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## KEVD18 (Aug 26, 2008)

starring in the local realtors office tv commercial doesnt make you a very famous celebrity.

very famous celebrities have managers/handlers that handle this sort of inquiry, which is usually made in person with an envelope full of cash.

your reading comprehension need work. did you miss the part of R/r's post that mention the live labs as part of his proposed medic program? i agree with his dismissal od a student that refused to touch/be touched. its a required part of the course.

if your friend is really uncomfortable in a classroom setting, he's SOL. as previously mentioned, you need several people to practice the skills. if he's so rich and famous, why doesnt he just hire and emt/lifeguard to watch his kids while they paddle about in that pool.

oh, and if you want to stick around and participate in our little corner of the net, id make amends and watch your tone. just a friendly suggestion....


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## Topher38 (Aug 26, 2008)

FireMedic236 said:


> Ok.  First of all, I know you don’t know me from anyone else.  But I will tell you I am not a new EMT and by no means am I just an EMT.  I don’t need to explain to anyone my medical background and experience...especially on a forum.  I am simply here to get some answers.  My friend is just looking to become an EMT.  Not to work on a meat wagon somewhere.  He already has a career and has always been interested in being able to help someone in need.  He also has a pool and two little kids.  I don’t understand the mentality of someone who wants to discourage learning, especially in a field that can only help society.  I think it is funny that you (Ridryder) say that you expelled someone for not wanting to touch or be touched but yet you are participating in an online course, particularly a PARAMEDIC course... hmmm sounds like a contradiction.  My friend happens to be a very famous celebrity and would feel extremely out of place in a classroom full of other students.  Again I still don’t understand why anyone would want to discourage anyone from wanting to become an EMT.  Not everyone who is interested in becoming an EMT wants to work on an ambulance.  Also,  I never said this individual would not participate in the skills portion of the testing process.  I was just simply looking for an answer to a question.




What does him having a pool and 2 kids have anything to do with your  initial question?


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## FireMedic236 (Aug 26, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> starring in the local realtors office tv commercial doesnt make you a very famous celebrity.
> 
> very famous celebrities have managers/handlers that handle this sort of inquiry, which is usually made in person with an envelope full of cash.
> 
> ...



If anyone needs work on reading and writing its you.  Ever heard of spell check.  Oh, and don't tell me to watch my tone after a reply like this.  I didn't come on to this forum to be attacked or have to defend myself or my friend.  I will take my questions elsewhere.  And I would say half ownership in a nationally syndicated sitcom on NBC as well being the star of the show constitutes famous... just my opinion.


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## FireMedic236 (Aug 26, 2008)

Thanks akfilghtmedic.  I sent you a PM


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## Jon (Aug 26, 2008)

Woah!

RidRyder seems to be involved with a new concept program... where lectures are conducted via distance learning, but there are still lots of practical labs. I'm not sold on the concept - but is it that much different than how we are teaching CPR for the AHA? We plug in the DVD and sit and watch... and do CPR... and watch. AHA even has ACLS and BCLS courses set up in the same way as Rid's course - you get the lecture and take a test over the internet, then you go somewhere and take a practical exam with AHA instructors present.

As for celebrities in EMS courses - Didn't David Lee Roth get his medic and go thorough FDNY's academy and work as a medic for a while?


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## Ridryder911 (Aug 26, 2008)

Then if they are supposedly that "famous" which does not impress me; then take a first aid course. EMT courses are designed to educate those interested in working in EMS. Not interested "working on a meat wagon" then he needs to take a different course. This is what the *whole course is designed for. *

I am sure there maybe someone that will attempt to "sell" themselves out to train your so called friend. Unfortunately, one of the poor values of EMS is that we don't place our profession high enough to ensure quality standards of entrance admissions. But it won't  matter. Your friend has a little problem it is called the law. Each state mandates certification and license criteria also. If they do not want to proceed to go through that level then take a first aid course. I  am sure one can be privately obtained. Also being so rich might do nothing but open the door for increased risk for litigation. The reason most EMT's are not personally sued is they know there is no wealth.. Yet, on the other hand if there is money they can and yes, will sue on a personal basis. 

I find it ironic being a close friend and labeling yourself as a Fire Medic, why didn't you consider doing it yourself? As well, there is much difference in building an educational level from the EMT level to Paramedic than entering at the first phase. 

Like I described, I am leery of such education but unfortunately someone will do it. I much rather have real educators develop a program and curriculum than those that produce such fly by night programs to be trained in. Also the program I am discussing has strict admission requirements, such as previous field experience and collegiate level prerequisites. One year (8 hrs) of A & P, Microbiology, College Algebra, Chemistry and experience references are required before being accepted into the program.

For me, I personally could care less if your friend was a king, game show host or a bum on the street. Stardom and "celebrity" stardom does not impress me or change the outcome when dealing with someones life and the EMS profession. When I teach, my concern is how well they will provide patient care and nothing else. David Lee Roth and many others of personality/celebrity fame took the time to enter and finish EMT courses, even clinical time. It's called doing it right. 

If your friend really wants to project his humanitarian side then either donate their image, fame, or even money to sponsor EMS services or promotion of EMS. This would greatly project a well needed area and reach much more than having taken a course that means nothing if one does not use or practice what they learned.  

R/r 911


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## bstone (Aug 26, 2008)

Rid, do you think this college will also make an Intermediate course online?


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## Ridryder911 (Aug 26, 2008)

This institution no longer has the EMT/ I program. In fact, the majority of the educational facilities in my state have abandoned teaching the Intermediate level. One of the lother local schools I also teach at has only one course for EMT/I it is one of the few. 

There is multiple reasons. Employers does not recognize the difference from Basic to EMT/I and educators do not want students to stop mid-way in the Paramedic program. 

R/r 911


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## bstone (Aug 26, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> This institution no longer has the EMT/ I program. In fact, the majority of the educational facilities in my state have abandoned teaching the Intermediate level. One of the lother local schools I also teach at has only one course for EMT/I it is one of the few.
> 
> There is multiple reasons. Employers does not recognize the difference from Basic to EMT/I and educators do not want students to stop mid-way in the Paramedic program.
> 
> R/r 911



Shame. I think that EMT-Intermediate should be seriously considered as a pre-req to EMT-Paramedic as the different between Basic and Paramedic are huge, while successful passing of Intermediate may demonstrate mastery of certain skills (IV, EKG, ETT in some areas, etc).


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## VentMedic (Aug 26, 2008)

Rid,

Are you worried that once this is allowed that it will pave the way for more programs that aren't of the same quality as yours? 

I know those that started one the first medic mills in Florida had great intentions also and they, too, were excellent Paramedics and instructors. However, the other 20+ medic mill founders did not hold to the same standard. But the door was now open for all to enter and seize the opportunty for their own agendas. 

I have read your opinions on Excelsior many times and for the majority of the posts we are in agreement about that program for entry level RNs. 

They, too, have similar entry requirements in the sciences. 

Not trying to be overly argumentative Rid, but I am from the quick fix, medic mill and fire EMS state. So, please bear with my skepticism. 

BTW, remember the contribution Bobby Sherman made after his music and acting career. Okay, maybe just Rid and Airwaygoddess will remember.


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## reaper (Aug 26, 2008)

Vent is right. That was the scenario that I was using for the online classes. Some very bad ones in S FL.

Vent,

Just to let you know, There is no Medic mills or Fire service schools north of Gainesville. The folks up north are holding on, some how!


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## KEVD18 (Aug 26, 2008)

bstone said:


> Shame. I think that EMT-Intermediate should be seriously considered as a pre-req to EMT-Paramedic as the different between Basic and Paramedic are huge, while successful passing of Intermediate may demonstrate mastery of certain skills (IV, EKG, ETT in some areas, etc).




sucessful passing of the intermediate course/exam demonstrate *proficiency* in ils skills, not mastery.

edit: this thread is right up your alley: http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=8920


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## bstone (Aug 26, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> sucessful passing of the intermediate course/exam demonstrate *proficiency* in ils skills, not mastery.



Not sure I agree with that. I think I can start a peripheral IV as good as any medic. I've gotten successful sticks when the medics haven't. I am talking more about the in-depth knowledge and advanced procedures that medic trains and allows for.


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## VentMedic (Aug 26, 2008)

Topher38 said:


> What does him having a pool and 2 kids have anything to do with your initial question?


 
I can see his point.  If the ARC first aid classes weren't readily available in some areas, I used to recommend that my friends who were new parents take the EMT class at the local state tech.  Besides all the swimming pools, canals and other things kids can get into, it gave them some reassurance that they might be able to do something until help arrived.  If they got their cert and kept up the refreshers, they could even pick up some extra money.


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## KEVD18 (Aug 26, 2008)

bstone said:


> Not sure I agree with that. I think I can start a peripheral IV as good as any medic. I've gotten successful sticks when the medics haven't. I am talking more about the in-depth knowledge and advanced procedures that medic trains and allows for.



you missed the point. passing any course, basic, medic intermediate, doesnt demonstrate mastery. mastery is demonstrated after certification and experience.

think of a plumber. how long does it take to become a master plumber? years and years, after you have enough skill and experience to earn that title.

im not intermediate bashing. im merely saying that no course in any field of study demonstrates mastery of anything upon completion. just proficiency.


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## bstone (Aug 26, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> you missed the point. passing any course, basic, medic intermediate, doesnt demonstrate mastery. mastery is demonstrated after certification and experience.
> 
> think of a plumber. how long does it take to become a master plumber? years and years, after you have enough skill and experience to earn that title.
> 
> im not intermediate bashing. im merely saying that no course in any field of study demonstrates mastery of anything upon completion. just proficiency.



Right and for this reason I think that Intermediate +6 months of experience ought to be a pre-req for medic school.


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## KEVD18 (Aug 26, 2008)

bstone said:


> Right and for this reason I think that Intermediate +6 months of experience ought to be a pre-req for medic school.



oh fair enough. im not arguing that. im just arguing you saying that your i course demonstrates you to be a master in intermediate skills.

while you may very well be a master at starting lines, you werent when you graduated.

it may be trite and petty, but im bored and all i have going on is being trite and petty


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## John E (Aug 26, 2008)

*Don't forget...*

"BTW, remember the contribution Bobby Sherman made after his music and acting career. Okay, maybe just Rid and Airwaygoddess will remember. "

What about the one and only David Lee Roth...?

2 celebrity EMT's, who'da thunk it?

As for the original poster, I don't really think he was trying to impress anyone with his friend's notoriety/celebrity, sounded like he was explaining that the friend didn't want the attention that would be paid to him/her if they attended a normal EMT class.

Given that the OP is from SoCal, as am I, I can certainly believe that he/she has a celebrity friend, we grow them out here on abandoned sound stages...

John E


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## VentMedic (Aug 26, 2008)

reaper said:


> Vent,
> 
> Just to let you know, There is no Medic mills or Fire service schools north of Gainesville. The folks up north are holding on, some how!


 
I thought our favorite medic mill had a school in Jacksonville?

If not, I sure "there's one coming soon to a location near you!"


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## akflightmedic (Aug 27, 2008)

They do have a school in JAX and some recent graduates who I mentored through the entire process via online coaching regret having ever gone there. They said "I should have listened to you when I first signed up."

Yes, the whole state is tainted.


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## reaper (Aug 27, 2008)

I missed that one! Last I knew, the farthest north they went was St. Augustine.

OK, We won't count JAX in the north!!

When I was still down there, not Jax, I used to get students from that school. They would drive up for a weekend of clinicals. After the fifth one, that had no clue what they were doing, I sent them packing. Called F**I and told them to keep the crap down there. I wish the state would shut them down, they are a disgrace!


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## BossyCow (Aug 27, 2008)

EMS is very much a people business. The practice is a team effort and needs to be learned, practiced and drilled in groups. It sounds to me like someone is worried about their kids getting hurt in a pool and wanting to purchase knowledge of a level above basic first aid. 

Personally I'd recommend getting a lifeguard certification, but that would also require participation in a group class. What your friend would learn in a full EMT class, regardless of venue is not going to help him/her without the addition of a fully stocked ambulance to work out of. Without the rig, we can only do basic first aid. 

The intentions are probably sincere, but based in a lack of understanding of what an EMT does and what EMS is.


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## VentMedic (Aug 27, 2008)

I would hope an EMT-B isn't reduced to being even more "basic" without their truck. There are many EMT-Bs working in different situations that function without an ambulance and with just a well planned trauma bag. This could be a good reason why the actual knowledge and not just tools should be emphasized in training. While the extra tools are very necessary at times, there may be situations that alternatives must be used. 

In fact, if this person lives in So. Cal (earthquakes), they should have many of the first-aid supplies, excluding O2, that an EMT would use and readily available regardless of celebrity status. My personal hurricane bag has just a few more items than the commercially prepared bag that is sold at many department stores. It is also similar the the commercially prepared Earthquake bags. 

BP cuffs and stethoscopes can be purchased just about anywhere and require minimal training but do require some practice. Doctors now recommend many of their patients to get familiar with these devices on a regular bases so it is not a skill that just limited to medical people. Some working knowledge of CPR should be available to everyone regardless of profession and especially for those that do have children. 

Community based training and the ARC have many great instructors that can give more specific training than what an EMT-B class offers. Just glancing through an EMT-B text, one can see it is weak in the areas of water rescue and pedicatrics. People who have gone through all the community based or ARC training courses end up with many more hours than an EMT-B class. However, the EMT-B is not a bad overview of basic first-aid procedures. 

A combination of community based classes and EMT-B might give one an idea about what to keep near the pool or what can be used in rescue. Surf boards, ropes, floatation devices and towels can be easily used if a person has had just a little training. The importance of spinal mobilization or when to move or not to move is emphasized in both EMT-B and community bases classes. Control of bleeding is also in both. EMT-B provides slightly more A&P and scene management or safety.


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## Ridryder911 (Aug 27, 2008)

John E said:


> "2 celebrity EMT's, who'da thunk it?
> 
> As for the original poster, I don't really think he was trying to impress anyone with his friend's notoriety/celebrity, sounded like he was explaining that the friend didn't want the attention that would be paid to him/her if they attended a normal EMT class
> 
> John E



Actually, Eddie Murphy had became an NYEMS Dispatcher in his early days and soon quit after the abuse. 

R/r 911


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## Airwaygoddess (Aug 27, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> BTW, remember the contribution Bobby Sherman made after his music and acting career. Okay, maybe just Rid and Airwaygoddess will remember.



                          You got that right!!!


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## Airwaygoddess (Aug 27, 2008)

*All right here we go!!*

Here ya go Vent!!!!  ( everybody check it out!  EMS has got some musicial roots!) B)


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## Airwaygoddess (Aug 27, 2008)

*Blush!*

It helps if I would post the link!  BLUSH! :blush: www.bobbysherman.com


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## KEVD18 (Aug 27, 2008)

the only thing the ambulacne itself provides is mobility.

you can have everything you have on the rig in a well thought out jump bag. 

the rig means nothing, its the proficiency in various skill sets that makes an emt what they are, not a vehicle.


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## BossyCow (Aug 28, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> the only thing the ambulacne itself provides is mobility.
> 
> you can have everything you have on the rig in a well thought out jump bag.
> 
> the rig means nothing, its the proficiency in various skill sets that makes an emt what they are, not a vehicle.



Okay, so in our jump kits we have O2, combi-tubes, AEDs, Spinal Immobilization, EKG monitors, traction splints, suction units etc? I don't think so. By myself, without an ambulance I can put pressure on a bleed, do CPR, and possibly splint a fx. All of which are First Aid Skills. My knowledge of how to manage c-spine is only going to help me hold C-spine manually until the board and collars arrive. 

In So.Cal. what is the response time going to be from EMS? Minutes? I can't count the number of threads here where newbies are trashed for wanting to carry everything in their jump kits. Mine has some bandaging, BP cuff, pocket mask, penlight and a couple of cardboard splints. Beyond that, I'm simply starting an assessment and planning what I'm going to do when the rig shows up.


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## bstone (Aug 28, 2008)

I have a BP, steth, BVM and about 100 4x4s in the trunk of my car. I've had to pull them out more times than I would have thought.

On that note, anyone else going to Gustav if it's another Katrina?


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## VentMedic (Aug 28, 2008)

BossyCow said:


> Okay, so in our jump kits we have O2, combi-tubes, AEDs, Spinal Immobilization, EKG monitors, traction splints, suction units etc? I don't think so. By myself, without an ambulance I can put pressure on a bleed, do CPR, and possibly splint a fx. All of which are First Aid Skills. My knowledge of how to manage c-spine is only going to help me hold C-spine manually until the board and collars arrive.
> 
> In So.Cal. what is the response time going to be from EMS? Minutes?


 
Private citizens can have AEDs in their homes if someone has a cardiac problem. They are also in health clubs, airports and just about anywhere there will be people. 

Maybe I'm dating myself but we didn't have a lot of fancy gadgets back when and yet we still managed to do effective traction and spinal immobilization until more help arrived. Suction units? There are still other ways to clear an airway. Maybe not as effectively but may work until help arrives. For infants, many parents still have the little bulb syringes. The big thing is to have the knowledge to know the airway needs opening and/or clearing. 

If you BVM is not available, a pocket mask will do. If it is you own child, I don't believe mouth to mouth will be an issue. If you know how to open an airway and ventilate, a combitube is not necessary. 

An EKG machine is also an option for EMT-B since no ACLS will be done. You either have a pulse to work with or you don't. 

If you have even been in a large scale disaster such as Andrew or Katrina, you learn not to be so dependent on gadgets but rather your knowledge and what is available or practical for you. There may be limited transport and no electricity or water. Your supplies and resources dwindle fast including oxygen. Even the hospitals are very aware of this. It happened during Charlie in Punta Gorda and Andrew in Miami. The NOLA hospitals definitely learned this the hard and deadly way during Katrina. 



> In So.Cal. what is the response time going to be from EMS? Minutes?


Just visiting California makes me want to keep and emergency kit nearby. As a Floridian, I really don't care for the ground shaking every few minutes. At least hurricanes can be forecasted and their paths plotted. 

I don't believe the person wanted to bypass EMS but rather just do something during those 4 - 6 minutes until help arrives.



> I can't count the number of threads here where newbies are trashed for wanting to carry everything in their jump kits.


There is a big difference between an EMS enthusiast running around in a lighted up POV loaded with equipment looking for an accident to happen and a concerned parent.

I taking this person's intention as good since children and pools were mentioned.  Those are Florida's concerns also and we do encourage parents to be proactive.


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## bstone (Aug 28, 2008)

Whenever I see a crash and I respond to help I use use my 4 way hazard lights.


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## Ridryder911 (Aug 28, 2008)

bstone said:


> Whenever I see a crash and I respond to help I use use my 4 way hazard lights.




Whenever I see a crash, I use my cell phone to call 911. So far it has apppeared to help much more than anything else I could do or carry. 


R/r 911


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## bstone (Aug 28, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> Whenever I see a crash, I use my cell phone to call 911. So far it has apppeared to help much more than anything else I could do or carry.
> 
> 
> R/r 911



Sorry but we disagree there. All the books say we have a moral and ethical duty to stop and help. It doesn't help that some states mandate this (like Vermont) and it doesn't matter if you're off duty.


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## BossyCow (Aug 28, 2008)

Personally I applaud the intent of the person wanting to know what to do and willing to take the time to learn the skills. But, a well taught industrial first aid class will probably give them as many tools as will be usable to them as an EMT class in a lot less time, with a lot less expense.


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## KEVD18 (Aug 28, 2008)

first off, you let a book tell you what YOUR morale and ethical responsibilities are???

theres very little i can do at the scene off duty. i dont carry the proper equipment to be an effective provider. im not really all that good at the "its going to be ok." hold their hand until the bus arrives type of stuff. 

i also, like many providers, am wary about liability. feel free to trot out all sorts of references to good samaritan protection but keep in mind, these laws dont prevent you from being sued. they (attempt) to protect you IN THE CASE OF A SUIT. you're still out the time/effort/expense of the litigation. 

also, in most jurisdictions, your authority to practice as an emt is derived from medical medical control which does not cover you off duty. without medical control, you are limited to first aid. what do they teach in the first aid course? "if its red and sticky, put on something white and fluffy". you cant use ANY medications(and yes 02 is a drug), no c-collars, backboards, airway maintenance. 90% of your emt course is rendered null and void without a doc behind you.

of course, none of that applies in places where they let vollies run around uncontrolled. but i live in the most tightly controlled, most overly legislated place i have ever seen. my license is my life and i intend to keep it for a very long time so i dont risk losing it for perfect stranger that im not being paid to help.

on duty, im covered by my state, local and company protocols and authorized to practice as such by my medical control.

off duty, im an average citizen. i'll call 911, but that about it. i try very hard to separate my personal and professional lives.


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## bstone (Aug 28, 2008)

Hey buddy chill out, ok? Sorry if I hold to a moral, ethical and sometimes legal requirement to get out and help. I did this a few years ago and ended up delivering a baby! No joke!


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## firecoins (Aug 28, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> first off, you let a book tell you what YOUR morale and ethical responsibilities are???
> .



You do realize every Jew, Chrisitian and Muslim get their morals out of a book, right?

I personally stop in situations I feel that are safe to do so. I usually don't so a hell of alot but it calms everyone down that someone is there that knows what they are doing.


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## bstone (Aug 28, 2008)

firecoins said:


> You do realize every Jew, Chrisitian and Muslim get their morals out of a book, right?
> 
> I personally stop in situations I feel that are safe to do so. I usually don't so a hell of alot but it calms everyone down that someone is there that knows what they are doing.



He didn't know I was referring to the Torah. ^_^


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## firecoins (Aug 28, 2008)

bstone said:


> He didn't know I was referring to the Torah. ^_^




Its time you moved up to the Talmud.^_^


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## bstone (Aug 28, 2008)

firecoins said:


> Its time you moved up to the Talmud.^_^



Oh I've studied it in major depth for many years.


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## KEVD18 (Aug 28, 2008)

you got me. but you know what i meant.


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## VentMedic (Aug 28, 2008)

BossyCow said:


> Personally I applaud the intent of the person wanting to know what to do and willing to take the time to learn the skills. But, a well taught industrial first aid class will probably give them as many tools as will be usable to them as an EMT class in a lot less time, with a lot less expense.


 
For California the cost may not be less than the EMT-B done at a CC. Community College credit hours are only about $20 - $22.00/cr. If EMT-B is about 12 credit hours, that's fairly reasonable although the book will be expensive. Of course, if a crash class from a career college is done it will be more expensive.

Through the Orange County ARC:
Adult CPR and AED - 5 hours $55
Child, Infant CPR 5.5 hours $45
Basic First Aid 4 hours $45
Advanced First Aid 54 hours $200
Water Safety 2 hours $25
Bloodborne Pathogens - 1 hour $20

Add that to attempting to schedule all the classes you want and it might work or not.


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## fortsmithman (Aug 29, 2008)

I'm against 1 on 1 training.  EMS skills have to be taught in a classroom with others.  Like police and fire EMS is a team environment.  We a people profession.


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## Flight-LP (Aug 29, 2008)

bstone said:


> On that note, anyone else going to Gustav if it's another Katrina?



God, I hope not. The last one was a cluster due to a sh!tload of freelancing. National Guard forces and Acadian ambulance (along with local and state emergency management) had their hands full babysitting dumb people doing stupid things (and no I am not talking about residents of N.O., I am referring to the cockroach infestion of ambulances from all over the U.S.) Hopefully this time around a little better organization and control occurs. Send in DMAT's, State and Federal support, but not every mom and pop private ambulance that want to go "help out the tragic vitcims of this disaster". There was minimal regulation and control until the 82nd Airborne arrived. Simply put, clueless people have no business playing EMT during a disaster relief effort. But, alas, it more than likely will happen. Fortunately I won't be there to see it............

Sorry for the hijack, but this subject is still a sore spot with me...............

Now back to your regularly scheduled postings!


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