# Fear mongering



## NomadicMedic (Oct 17, 2015)

There Is a fire department that is facing a staff reduction.  They're posting this photo. 

(Which I believe is total BS)


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## WildlandEMT89 (Oct 17, 2015)

Too many cooks?


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## NomadicMedic (Oct 17, 2015)

This was my reply (which they deleted)

Looks like a typical IAFF driven campaign of a fire department trying to justify their staffing and/or existence. A high-performance/pit crew cardiac arrest can be managed with one or two paramedics and two additional EMTs. Is it nice to have extra help? Sure. The question that should be asked, is there any difference in survival to discharge by having five paramedics on scene versus one? I didn't think so. Nice try though. (In fact, there are studies that show that multiple ALS providers on a high acuity call confound the issue. But you already know that, right?)

Try two paramedics on a quick response vehicle and two EMTs on a BLS ambulance. You don't commit resources where they're not needed and you have all the hands you need for a critical call. Sending suppression equipment to a medical emergency is overkill. But when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.


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## chaz90 (Oct 17, 2015)

Yup. Using an emotionally charged picture to appeal to an uninformed audience is low. I'm a bit surprised they went the EMS route though. 

Not the first time any kind of business facing budget cuts has used underhanded tactics to try to secure funding.


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## NomadicMedic (Oct 17, 2015)

When numerous posters have pointed out that  a medic with a couple of EMTs can (and do) manage an arrest just fine, they continue to spout the "well, if you'd rather have an EMT work on your mother or daughter than a team of paramedics..." rhetoric. It's just awful how this crap gets fed to the citizens.


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## Tigger (Oct 17, 2015)

Link?

I enjoy that many of the role descriptions here could easily be done by an EMT or just not at all. Surprised they didn't just put up a pic of a house fire with everyone's role, at least that would be accurate.


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## NomadicMedic (Oct 17, 2015)

Enjoy: https://m.facebook.com/profile.php?id=121261054591200


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## Martyn (Oct 17, 2015)

Just put a reply on there...lets see how long it takes to get deleted lol


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## terrible one (Oct 17, 2015)

http://californiafirefighter.com/showthread.php?t=9819

I'm not sure if you have to log in to view?


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## Flying (Oct 17, 2015)

I'm sure there is something special about a paramedic education that gives one the edge in providing chest compressions and ventilations.
You know, the two things we're trying to demystify for the public so that lives are *actually* saved.

It's interesting how these job descriptions in the picture are exactly that, the captions are written in resume-speak.


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## NomadicMedic (Oct 17, 2015)

terrible one said:


> http://californiafirefighter.com/showthread.php?t=9819
> 
> I'm not sure if you have to log in to view?



I logged in. Bunch of hose monkeys patting themselves on the back.


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## EpiEMS (Oct 17, 2015)

DEmedic said:


> This was my reply (which they deleted)
> 
> Looks like a typical IAFF driven campaign of a fire department trying to justify their staffing and/or existence. A high-performance/pit crew cardiac arrest can be managed with one or two paramedics and two additional EMTs. Is it nice to have extra help? Sure. The question that should be asked, is there any difference in survival to discharge by having five paramedics on scene versus one? I didn't think so. Nice try though. (In fact, there are studies that show that multiple ALS providers on a high acuity call confound the issue. But you already know that, right?)
> 
> Try two paramedics on a quick response vehicle and two EMTs on a BLS ambulance. You don't commit resources where they're not needed and you have all the hands you need for a critical call. Sending suppression equipment to a medical emergency is overkill. But when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.



If the IAFF ever cared about evidence, they certainly haven't shown it.

I think this is something I'll be quoting across the forums for a while: "Sending suppression equipment to a medical emergency is overkill." It's a good mantra for system redesign.


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## LACoGurneyjockey (Oct 17, 2015)

Funny, I put a nice post on there describing each individual role in the same tone used in their picture, for running an arrest with a Medic/EMT ambulance and BLS engine company. And now it's gone...


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## gonefishing (Oct 23, 2015)

I live right next door to this community.  I never ever see them run a call.  A bls ao program would benefit them.  You can drive through this town by the blink of an eye.


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## NomadicMedic (Oct 23, 2015)

Martyn said:


> Just put a reply on there...lets see how long it takes to get deleted lol




This is what they wrote: 
*San Marino Firefighters' Association*
Listen Martyn, those posts were deleted for two reasons: First, like your post, the others completely missed the point. Second, some of those individual's local presidents asked for their members posts to be deleted - they were an embarrassment. This photo shows what goes on during a typical full arrest. In Southern California, the majority of the firefighters are hired as medics and we simply maintain our certs as we move up through the ranks. The purpose here isn't to put EMT's down or say that they can't do any of the the jobs pictured (we were all EMT B's before we were medics). Have a little respect for your brothers in the field. Comments like yours make us all look bad. I'll leave your post up if you would like.


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## cprted (Oct 23, 2015)

I'd give up #5 because he's doing terrible chest compressions.


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## PotatoMedic (Oct 23, 2015)

cprted said:


> I'd give up #5 because he's doing terrible chest compressions.


And number 3 because I don't need to call a doc unless I'm wanting to terminate the code.


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## gonefishing (Oct 23, 2015)

I think ill go to the next town hall meeting since im close by and ask how Hall Ambulance and American Ambulance are able to perform so well with 2 people.


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## Tigger (Oct 23, 2015)

To be clear I don't begrudge them for wanting to keep their jobs. But this is not how you do this. Show your value. The fire department's value is in preventing fire, fighting fire, and other sort of fire service (and perhaps rescue) type activities. Show them that value and why it matters, because it does. 

Unless you are transporting patients or providing BLS first response in a rural area, you are not contributing anything of value to EMS.


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## gonefishing (Oct 23, 2015)

Tigger said:


> To be clear I don't begrudge them for wanting to keep their jobs. But this is not how you do this. Show your value. The fire department's value is in preventing fire, fighting fire, and other sort of fire service (and perhaps rescue) type activities. Show them that value and why it matters, because it does.
> 
> Unless you are transporting patients or providing BLS first response in a rural area, you are not contributing anything of value to EMS.


Just a note, theres a stemi/mi/stroke, edap hospital 5 minutes away oh and a level 2 trauma, level 3 nicu about 8 minutes the other direction.


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## Carlos Danger (Oct 23, 2015)

cprted said:


> I'd give up #5 because he's doing terrible chest compressions.



As well as #1 because he's interrogating a distraught family member who's recollection cannot be trusted, about meds that he should know inside and out but which probably have little relevance to the resuscitation anyway

And #2 because he's squeezing an IV bag that apparently isn't attached to anything


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## NomadicMedic (Oct 23, 2015)

...And just it's a stock photo. Look at the patches.


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## Mufasa556 (Oct 24, 2015)

gonefishing said:


> Just a note, theres a stemi/mi/stroke, edap hospital 5 minutes away oh and a level 2 trauma, level 3 nicu about 8 minutes the other direction.



Sure, but do you realize how bad traffic is in that area? Huntington Drive to Arcadia Methodist is a nightmare and God have Mercy on their souls if they have to take Fair Oaks to Huntington Memorial. 

They're cowboys all alone out there. I'm surprised they don't fly more people out.


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## gonefishing (Oct 24, 2015)

Mufasa556 said:


> Sure, but do you realize how bad traffic is in that area? Huntington Drive to Arcadia Methodist is a nightmare and God have Mercy on their souls if they have to take Fair Oaks to Huntington Memorial.
> 
> They're cowboys all alone out there. I'm surprised they don't fly more people out.


LOL! nevermind the mutual aid from Arcadia down the street and South Pasadena.  Honestly they would do just fine with a volunteer FD like Sierra Madre.  The only paid position over there are the medics at $12-$14 an hour.  When your majority population of structures is residential and botiques with your tallest building being 2 storys it's hard to justify.  Another thing, its a wealthy mostly geriatric population.  Wealthy people or wealthy areas shown in trends tend to be healthier.  I would be curious to see the call volume.  It all really comes down to dollar signs and number of actual use.  If they used Schaefer or Amr both near by and a squad system, hell even a private dual medic, fires budget would go in half! But with the IAFF and Joe taxpayer not being too knowledgeable on how it all really works that will probably never happen.  For too long in LA county the public always associates fire with ems and private personell being "Ambulance drivers".


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## NYBLS (Nov 5, 2015)

#2 should read this poster, I don't see a monitor.


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## NomadicMedic (Nov 8, 2015)

NYBLS said:


> #2 should read this poster, I don't see a monitor.



Hahahah. How did I not see that? Lots of para-magician ACLS stuff going on, but no monitor, no defib patches and CPR over a t-shirt. WTF.


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## sirengirl (Nov 8, 2015)

I'd give up 1, 2, and 3. 4 does the job of 1 and 3, and 6 does the job of 2. 

Clearly this means I am ready to be a politician for making all these fantastic budget cuts. I'll be running in 2016.


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## escapedcaliFF (Nov 11, 2015)

I know ive been MIA for the last couple months but let me give you my perspective. The IAFF is ran by crooks. They will use any tactic to faten their coffers to pay for their over inflated pensions while backing liberal pro union wack job liberals for public office. This is coming from an ex hose monkey who woke up to the evils of fire running EMS and moved over to the private side. Im much happier not having to associate with a group like the IAFF anymore.


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## exodus (Nov 14, 2015)

I'm not seeing the issue here. If they're facing budget cuts and need the money to keep staffing then who cares how they do it? They are a purely fire based ALS only transport department according to the posting...  Having more hands on scene is always helpful as long as people do their jobs.



> Gary, thank you for you comments.
> 
> As Jon mentioned, you are missing the point of this photo. Let's not forget that we are all on the same team here. CAN it be done with fewer? Yes. Have I personally done the job with fewer in my ems career? Yes. There point is that there is a difference in the quality of care a patient receives with more hands on deck vs. fewer hands - I have witnessed the difference personally in working on various types of systems throughout my career.
> 
> ...


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## escapedcaliFF (Nov 14, 2015)

exodus said:


> I'm not seeing the issue here. If they're facing budget cuts and need the money to keep staffing then who cares how they do it? They are a purely fire based ALS only transport department according to the posting...  Having more hands on scene is always helpful as long as people do their jobs.


Cause its being pushed by a corrupt group like the IAFF who could care less about patient care. All they care about is more members paying Union dues.


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## gotbeerz001 (Nov 14, 2015)

escapedcaliFF said:


> Cause its being pushed by a corrupt group like the IAFF who could care less about patient care. All they care about is more members paying Union dues.


Sounds like somebody who never quite got the job they were hoping for…


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## Carlos Danger (Nov 14, 2015)

gotshirtz001 said:


> Sounds like somebody who never quite got the job they were hoping for…



Sure.....and the only reason many people don't support Barack Obama is cuz they're racist, right? 

Would you say that the IAFF has a strong interest in _improving _patient care?


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## Carlos Danger (Nov 14, 2015)

exodus said:


> I'm not seeing the issue here. If they're facing budget cuts and need the money to keep staffing then who cares how they do it? They are a purely fire based ALS only transport department according to the posting...  Having more hands on scene is always helpful as long as people do their jobs.



The problem is that it is an attempt to use misinformation to scare an uninformed and vulnerable public into supporting the agenda of always giving the fire service all the money they want. Because if you don't give the FD all the money they want, the ad implies, you will be more likely to die because there won't be enough FF's around to save you. 

It is not only a lie, but also an unethical violation of trust, IMO.

They could have simplified the ad and simply printed in block letters "Give Your FD More Money If You Want To Live." Because that is exactly what the ad means, in short.


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## escapedcaliFF (Nov 14, 2015)

gotshirtz001 said:


> Sounds like somebody who never quite got the job they were hoping for…


I spent years as a hose monkey and left on my own free accord to pursue private EMS so try again. I enjoy private EMS 100x more and am much happier.


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## triemal04 (Nov 14, 2015)

Brief diversion from the topic of the thread but I just can't resist.


escapedcaliFF said:


> I spent years as a hose monkey and left on my own free accord to pursue private EMS so try again. I enjoy private EMS 100x more and am much happier.


Your own free accord?  It wasn't for medical reasons?


escapedcaliFF said:


> Yeah I know that as I work on an ambulance now. I am no longer a FF due to medical reasons.





escapedcaliFF said:


> First off I'm not longer a FF cause of medical reasons.
> Oh he was deffiently on the line but not yet over it. He meant it as a joke that was reserved for his engine only and made a mistake. Fire departments are very close knit group of guys. Everyone on an engine is like a family. The guys at your station on another engine are like your extended family however you know you all have each other's best interest at heart. I have been the subject of someone dropping in on a conversation I was having with my guys and this outside person felt it was over the line and made a big stink about it. My guys had no issue with it what so ever cause we where all like brothers and command thought it was not over the line. While a Lt. saying those things might not send the best message to those under him its a far cry from anything totally out of control. I dont think his career should be at risk cause of a mistake. The issue I have is now a days someone says something they don't like and first thing they do is run to command or their EO rep. Careers are flushed down the drain due to political correctness and outside pressure. The media will always blow stuff out of proportion so I take this story with a grain of salt. This story is far from why they put sexual harrasment standards in place.


Do you want to revise your statement from then, or now?

http://emtlife.com/threads/start-a-ambulance-company-or-not.41318/
How about that company you were starting?  You know, the one that was in an area that already had a transporting EMS service (run by the local fire department)?  It work out?

The cynical part of me can't help but think of two possibilities for your sudden hatred of the IAFF; you tried to get another job with a fire department/keep your old job, were refused for the aforementioned medical reasons, went to the IAFF for help and were told there was nothing to be done...or...
...your company failed because the fire department wasn't quite ready to give up their service area...or...
...you tried to get a medical pension, and then had it revoked for one reason or another (possibly because you were still working as a field EMS provider) and the IAFF told you there was nothing to be done.

Pure speculation on my part, but since we are speculating about the intent of that idiotic poster that was put out...one has to wonder...

And for the record, the poster that DEMedic posted is absolutely ridiculous...just like the ones put out by multiple medical provider's parent groups...


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## escapedcaliFF (Nov 14, 2015)

triemal04 said:


> Brief diversion from the topic of the thread but I just can't resist.
> 
> Your own free accord?  It wasn't for medical reasons?
> 
> ...


 Yes medical and my own free accord. The company I run it actually doing fine. I run three EMTs providing services to a large mine. If you would like I can put you in contact with the company I contract for.


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## escapedcaliFF (Nov 14, 2015)

If you would like to get into my leaving fire please feel free to message me. Had nothing to do with IAFF. More of the fact I was facing a medical complication and doctor advise. I could of pushed myself another 10 years maybe but I decided to put my family first.


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## triemal04 (Nov 14, 2015)

Oh goody goody.  Glad my cynicism is unfounded.


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## olaf1988 (Nov 14, 2015)

The lack of monitor is an odd choice... 

I've run full-arrests with just me and the medic, I think they could have thought of a better way to get this message across.


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## sweetpete (Dec 20, 2015)

There seems to be ALOT of animosity in this forum. I'm an IAFF fire medic and couldn't be happier. Make plenty of medical calls and I love it. Money is really good, great retirement and excellent benefits. And I thank my union for that. I respect the other medics I work with on the ambulance too. When we work a CPR, we get a lot of people involved. More the merrier.


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## RocketMedic (Dec 20, 2015)

sweetpete said:


> There seems to be ALOT of animosity in this forum. I'm an IAFF fire medic and couldn't be happier. Make plenty of medical calls and I love it. Money is really good, great retirement and excellent benefits. And I thank my union for that. I respect the other medics I work with on the ambulance too. When we work a CPR, we get a lot of people involved. More the merrier.



Yeah, but you work for Houston Fire. Good luck with that pension...


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## MS Medic (Dec 21, 2015)

DEmedic said:


> I logged in. Bunch of hose monkeys patting themselves on the back.



I'm quite offended by that statement. Why are you hating on monkeys so bad? Sorry guys. Couldn't resist.


escapedcaliFF said:


> The IAFF is ran by crooks.


That is a statement that applies to all unions.


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## MS Medic (Dec 21, 2015)

sweetpete said:


> There seems to be ALOT of animosity in this forum. I'm an IAFF fire medic and couldn't be happier. Make plenty of medical calls and I love it. Money is really good, great retirement and excellent benefits. And I thank my union for that. I respect the other medics I work with on the ambulance too. When we work a CPR, we get a lot of people involved. More the merrier.


The problem is that many of us who are strictly EMS see problems with fire running EMS. A large portion of it is that FF don't view themselves as EMS first. They're FF first and EMS takes a back seat. Where I work private services run 911 and fire first responds with rescue units and sometimes the BRT. I can't count the number of FF I know who openly admit the reason they got medic was to help with promotions. I've had plenty of times where I've had to deal with someone trying to bump egos. Also the more the merrier isn't always true. Excessive ALS providers tend to muddy the waters and too many means that a lot of the guys don't get enough practice to keep up critical skills running from assessment to psychomotor skills such as intubations.
And an important question is that if you took EMS out of the relm of fire services, how many times over the course of a shift would many companies actually leave the station?


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## Tigger (Dec 21, 2015)

sweetpete said:


> There seems to be ALOT of animosity in this forum. I'm an IAFF fire medic and couldn't be happier. Make plenty of medical calls and I love it. Money is really good, great retirement and excellent benefits. And I thank my union for that. I respect the other medics I work with on the ambulance too. When we work a CPR, we get a lot of people involved. More the merrier.


Can you honestly look at that "informational flyer" and say that there is no exaggeration occurring? Do you think that many paramedics are needed? If you were a taxpayer would you want to fund that many paramedics and their associated cost?


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## Onceamedic (Dec 21, 2015)

Tigger said:


> Link?
> 
> I enjoy that many of the role descriptions here could easily be done by an EMT or just not at all. Surprised they didn't just put up a pic of a house fire with everyone's role, at least that would be accurate.


Structure fires are so rare that recent photos are hard to obtain....


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## MS Medic (Dec 21, 2015)

Let me flip the view and ask this. Would it make sense for EMS personal, regardless of whether the are private or municipal, to go into the business of fire services but still have their primary focus on EMS? That sounds absolutely insane to me but makes as much sense to me as fire service operating EMS as a secondary role.


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## akflightmedic (Dec 21, 2015)

MS Medic said:


> Let me flip the view and ask this. Would it make sense for EMS personal, regardless of whether the are private or municipal, to go into the business of fire services but still have their primary focus on EMS? That sounds absolutely insane to me but makes as much sense to me as fire service operating EMS as a secondary role.



Boca Raton Fire Rescue considers themselves an EMS based fired department...but that mentality exists only because like minded leaders who truly believe that are at the top. That kind of change only occurs from top down...

I tried to join them many years ago as they are one of the highest paid services, excellent schedule 24/72, and have all the latest toys, technology and advanced protocols. They are extremely pro-EMS as they know that is where their bread is buttered. Excellent medical training, EMS is promoted as a good thing, and they do not lack in anything medical.


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## MS Medic (Dec 21, 2015)

Nothing wrong with that. I wasn't saying fire shouldn't be in EMS as some sort of absolute. I mainly was answering the statement about the animosity and why it is there. Any and all complaints I have about fire involved in EMS is about the approach that it is a secondary thing. If Boca Raton doesn't operate like that, then problem solved.


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## gonefishing (Dec 21, 2015)

Most guys don't want to be on the box and use it to gain the 15% raise or to climb the ladder.  I've primarily seen the worse patient care with fireman even on my own family and have as well been treated like crapp when ive had a genuine emergency involving myself.


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## MS Medic (Dec 21, 2015)

MS Medic said:


> Let me flip the view and ask this. Would it make sense for EMS personal, regardless of whether the are private or municipal, to go into the business of fire services but still have their primary focus on EMS? That sounds absolutely insane to me but makes as much sense to me as fire service operating EMS as a secondary role.



The actual purpose of this statement was an attempt to show sweetpete the perspective we view this issue from.


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## akflightmedic (Dec 21, 2015)

I got it....my purpose was to show it can be done and should be done.


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## MS Medic (Dec 21, 2015)

akflightmedic said:


> I got it....my purpose was to show it can be done and should be done.


I will agree that it should be done sometimes, but I unfortunately feel that many of us have anecdotal evidence that would give credence to the idea that Boca Raton Fire is more of exception rather than the rule itself. 

But with that said if EMS is done by fire from the same perspective that pure EMS professional view it from, then I agree with you.


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## reaper (Dec 21, 2015)

akflightmedic said:


> I got it....my purpose was to show it can be done and should be done.


But, find another area that has the money Boca has! They have always thrown money at public services. Most areas will not do that. 

Miami-Dade was one of the first in the country and does a great job at it. But, the staff still want to be on the engine, for the most part.


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## sweetpete (Jan 1, 2016)

RocketMedic said:


> Yeah, but you work for Houston Fire. Good luck with that pension...



Actually, I work for a suburb of Houston, not Houston itself. We're TMRS so I'm way happier with that than whatever HFD is throwing money into these days. But retirement is an elusive creature at best anyways. Lol! So I'm not holding my breath.


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## TransportJockey (Jan 1, 2016)

sweetpete said:


> Actually, I work for a suburb of Houston, not Houston itself. We're TMRS so I'm way happier with that than whatever HFD is throwing money into these days. But retirement is an elusive creature at best anyways. Lol! So I'm not holding my breath.


I know that feeling lol. We have county retirement where I'm at along with a 401... something... that we have the option of paying into.  I have more hope for mine than hfd does. Although that reminds me, i need to see if i can roll my tmrs money into the county plan.


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