# HAZMAT Scenerio



## TreySpooner65 (Apr 7, 2011)

I need to come up with a hazmat scenario for my emt class and my group has to go through the steps. What are some fun/interesting scenarios you cans can think of?


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 7, 2011)

-Tanker truck accident
-Train derailment involving chlorine or anhydrous ammonia
-Farm vehicle accident involving anhydrous
-Nerve agent release (fun to trip people up on scene safety)


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## TreySpooner65 (Apr 7, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> -Tanker truck accident
> -Train derailment involving chlorine or anhydrous ammonia
> -Farm vehicle accident involving anhydrous



Idk how im gonna borrow a tanker to over turn!



usafmedic45 said:


> -Nerve agent release (fun to trip people up on scene safety)



They did that last year. No one except the last group asked if the scene was safe so they got an MCI on top of it.


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## Handsome Robb (Apr 7, 2011)

Wouldn't any HAZMAT scene be unsafe? My safety>yours, sorry.

You can still run a tanker scenario without a tanker, just pick a building or a classmates big truck to simulate the tanker.


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## TreySpooner65 (Apr 7, 2011)

NVRob said:


> Wouldn't any HAZMAT scene be unsafe? My safety>yours, sorry.


When they did it last year it wasnt specifically hazmat, there was a "colorless odorless gas" present and they all forgot to ask if the scene was safe. all they had to do was ask and the instructor would have told them no, wait for hazmat.


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## DesertMedic66 (Apr 7, 2011)

We did a scaled down 9/11 scenario with the release of a nerve agent. We happened to do the scenario on 9/11.


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## TreySpooner65 (Apr 7, 2011)

firefite said:


> We did a scaled down 9/11 scenario with the release of a nerve agent. We happened to do the scenario on 9/11.



Haha thats a little far.

Someone suggested LEGO stop animation for our video


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## DesertMedic66 (Apr 7, 2011)

TreySpooner65 said:


> Haha thats a little far.
> 
> Someone suggested LEGO stop animation for our video



It wasn't actually that hard to set up. It was just for our CPR class. Now we have another day where we had crashed cars and smoke machines etc.


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 8, 2011)

> there was a "colorless odorless gas" present



Then they don't know the first thing about nerve agents then.  More stupidity in EMS education....lovely.


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## lightsandsirens5 (Apr 8, 2011)

TreySpooner65 said:


> there was a "colorless odorless gas" present



And we know this colorless, odorless gas was present how? I personally would not be entering an area based solely in the fact that there are multiple people laying around dying. But that is just me. I hope to god that nothing like that ever happens around here, cause 90% of my crewmates would be killed off in the first five minutes. :sad:


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## mycrofft (Apr 8, 2011)

*Youn know it's there from the blue canaries...*

aka first responding law enforcement.B)

Don't get wrapped up in a hollywood production, get into the skills and how thorough and well-equipped they will be, and how you can teach defined objectives through them. Otherwise, it's a Halloween party or murder mystery cruise, just special effects.

Are you centering on command and control, or dispatch, or layperson bystander response, or donning and doffing PPE, or decon and tx, or agent ID, or what? Do you have a realistic (i.e., short) list of your definable measurable training objectives?

Tell you what...have them donn PPE, then start running rescue manikins and volunteers through ten at a time needing to be decontaminated, do that, then diagnose and treat, maybe having the volunteer victims go through more than once having their outer clothes cut off etc. Plan your safety measures thoroughly so no one gets dropped or otherwise hurt. Have umpires and evaluators observing and advancing pt morbidity (i.e., each pt has so many minutes to be saved, if not, then declare them dead).


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## TreySpooner65 (Apr 8, 2011)

I think you guys missed the point. We are taught to always say "BSI, scene safety" before each skill, to show we are following those steps. If we dont, the instructors say we failed the skill. In this case, they died.


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## ffemt8978 (Apr 8, 2011)

Low speed (minor injuries) MVA with rolling meth lab in the trunk.  This has the unfortunate benefit of being a scenario you stand a good chance of encountering once you get out of class.


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 8, 2011)

> I think you guys missed the point. We are taught to always say "BSI, scene safety" before each skill, to show we are following those steps. If we dont, the instructors say we failed the skill. In this case, they died




I think you missed the point.  Teaching people to rotely parrot back a meaningless phrase just so they don't forget to say it when the time comes for the practical skills exam is a good way to get people hurt and killed.  Even if it's just for the purposes of a scenario, teaching students something about a potential terrorist weapon that is quite frankly wrong is never a good idea.  Nerve agents are seldom colorless (usually due to impurities), they usually aren't odorless and they aren't gases:
Tabun is a clear-white to brownish liquid that smells like fruit (apples being the most common description I have heard).
Sarin is one of the few that is colorless and odorless, but it is also a liquid.
Soman is a corrosive liquid, often yellow to brown in color due to impure manufacturing (absolutely pure soman is colorless).  The odor has been described as being like a cross between menthol and camphor or camphor alone
Cyclosarin is a clear liquid with a smell like shellac, peaches or moldy bread (sweet and musty was the way I was taught to remember it).  
VX has the consistency of high viscosity motor oil.  It is odorless and tasteless.


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## Harvey (Apr 8, 2011)

How about a hydrogen sulfide suicide. they are becoming more popular in the US


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## mycrofft (Apr 8, 2011)

*An H2S scenario would be a good small exercise scenario, just get it right.*

Also, confined space with hostile atmosphere, or house with a room gassed by cleaning agent mixure (Chlorine and ammonia, or Peroxide and either of the above, being a couple scenarios); also, carbon monoxide.

Simply stating "We have decontaminated the patients" is not enough. We did that for a decade with my Guard units, then, when we actually tried it in a full-on exercise, the entire exercise ground to a halt at the decon stage. Very disheartening for the participants, also very exhausting.

A sidebar: if you do that decon exercise, you will _*use up*_ some supplies like suits and boot covers. Afterwards you will be tempted to keep them separately for follow-on training, which is good, but probably won't do it again, which is bad and will leave you with a bunch of mildewed smelly gear. Many small exercises and classes will exercise your decon skills better. DON'T use real things ike super-bleach etc. without proper environmental clearances. 
Now, big scale is what you want if you are integrating ICS and line people. Ease back on the simulations at the site, maybe just have people wear the full gear properly,  but lean down on the communication inputs with LOTS of proctors to make inputs realistic as possible (not very) and advance the tine line.


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## Veneficus (Apr 8, 2011)

TreySpooner65 said:


> I think you guys missed the point. We are taught to always say "BSI, scene safety" before each skill, to show we are following those steps. If we dont, the instructors say we failed the skill. In this case, they died.



I think you need way better instructors, this whole thing sounds absolutely stupid.


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## mycrofft (Apr 8, 2011)

*"They" ought to make a degree, certificate or something for exercises.*

It is so easy to get tied up in special effects like  custom moulage, prop tank cars, smoke fire and explosions and not approach exercises for what they are supposed to be, either a test of a piece of machinery or a system, or a means of learning through doing. What results is a big expense, maybe injuries, disillusioned participants (especially the volunteers who help prep/clean up and act as victims), and usually little real advancement of knowledge or preparedness.

The whole thing starts with a statement of need, then expands to delineate how to meet that, then gets trimmed down to practicable bits, and those are addressed with LESSON PLANS; all else is only to support the lesson plans. Don't start with "We need a disaster exercise". 

That's like, "We need to use our reciprocating saw; no matter whether we have a job for it or we are more ignorant of how to sand or what, we need to cut something up reciprocatingly".


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## Veneficus (Apr 8, 2011)

*The learning experience*

When teaching less advanced students, an excercise should never be designed for them to fail. 

Not only does it create fear of failure and annihilate confidence, that kind of teaching destroys the ability to absorb new information and dynamically apply what has already been learned.

It is also one of the reasons that we see so many entry level people in EMS quick to critisize the more advanced on how wrong they are.

Now I am not suggesting that people should be coddled, absent from critisism, or that a student shouldn't be able to fail, only that when teaching new people the chances of success if they follow what they have been told, should be in their favor.

Once you get past the initital and mid levels of training, then being set up to fail can be a power learning device. Especially when it is overcome.

Instructors who create scenarios where there is not a specific directable learning objective from the success or who play these "guess what I am thinking" are more responsible for the problems in education than the limited time and curriculum.

It serves no purpose for education, and about the only benefit I can think of for any of the participants is it lets the instructor feel superior by seeing a new person fail.

Coupling that with making an inexperienced student come up with a scenario also absolves the instructor from the responsibility and effort they are being paid for.

It is disgraceful.


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 8, 2011)

> How about a hydrogen sulfide suicide. they are becoming more popular in the US



Got any hard and fast statistics on that one?  I've seen one news report claiming that but it didn't specify the source for the claim.


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## mycrofft (Apr 8, 2011)

*H2S...it's more frequent if it goes from zero to one.*

Gotta love headlines. How about a garage full of exhaust fumes?


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## camau71 (Apr 16, 2011)

I would think something you might encounter in your locale.  Ventura, maybe a tanker spill or something of that nature.  For a EMT class, all your going to be teaching is scene size up, situational awareness and personal safety.  

I would stress that based on the dispatch and where your are going you should be suspicious of the possible hazards you might encounter.  If you have any doubt, you DO NOT APPROACH.  Anything more than that may encourage responders to do something that could endanger them.


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## Scout (May 26, 2011)

TreySpooner65 said:


> When they did it last year it wasnt specifically hazmat, there was a "colorless odorless gas" present and they all forgot to ask if the scene was safe. all they had to do was ask and the instructor would have told them no, wait for hazmat.




How does a normal crew find this "colorless odorless gas"??  I never got that... We had one recently with an industrial Hazmat, Nitrogen gas leak.. That was quite interesting.


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## mycrofft (May 27, 2011)

*Nitrogen is not safe, but cheap to simulate!*

Nitrogen in small enclose spaces like labs and production facilities.
Hey, OP, how has this worked out for you?
Another sidebar: CERT is taught if it has a HAZMAT or chemtrec placard, get out and stay out. Wonder how we determine if it has a placard if we can't get close? And every hardware store and many grocery stores have a hazmat placard somewhere.


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## Scout (May 27, 2011)

mycrofft said:


> Nitrogen in small enclose spaces like labs and production facilities.
> Hey, OP, how has this worked out for you?





It becomes an issue when the leak reduces the available amount of o2. Apparently your body does't register the high levels.


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## mycrofft (May 27, 2011)

*Nitrogen also causes CNS symptoms (sidebar)*

Story goes, techs at a NASA lab investigating pressurized helmets and different gas mixtures at different pressures were going in with a friend and huffing nitrogen for "nitrogen narcosis", then going back on O2 to "blow it off". One day someonone was found after lunch  sitting in the helmet...


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## rogersam5 (May 29, 2011)

> You find a colorless odorless gas.



Yup...its called Air... i find it everywhere


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## mycrofft (May 29, 2011)

*And air is about 80% what?*

Nitrogen!
OP, did this post help you? How did it work out?


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## rogersam5 (May 29, 2011)

mycrofft said:


> Nitrogen!
> OP, did this post help you? How did it work out?



78% at sea level under standard pressure... 20% Oxygen, Almost 1% Argon, then <1% of a bunch of other gases...

To be more precise


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## BEorP (May 29, 2011)

rogersam5 said:


> 78% at sea level under standard pressure... 20% Oxygen, Almost 1% Argon, then <1% of a bunch of other gases...
> 
> To be more precise



If we're getting picky on precision, that isn't the breakdown only at sea level


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## rogersam5 (May 29, 2011)

BEorP said:


> If we're getting picky on precision, that isn't the breakdown only at sea level



Very true... But then again in a lot of cases it isn't the breakdown at sea level either!


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## mycrofft (May 30, 2011)

*NOAA says gas mix is the same until you are really, really, REEEEaly high up*

Then you start getting ozone from bombarded oxygen.
Got that 78% N and 1% argon. 

I had a lunch bet with a private pilot and I lost.


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