# About paradigms: COLD WAR versus now.



## mycrofft (Apr 11, 2010)

In response to changes in Soviet military doctrine starting in the mid Seventies which advanced the practice and preparation for the use of first-strike chemical and bioweapons, we were trained to use chem warfare protective measures, medical facilities were designed to (in our dreams) withstand a combination of the gentle rain of chemical aerosols and   the steel rain of guided high-explosive artillery, high velocity firearms, and maybe a good old nuclear follwoup. (try to look up "SKIPSAM", "SCPSM", "TEMPER tent mobile hospitals", etc. Good luck).
ADDENDUM:http://library.enlisted.info/field-manuals/series-2/FM8_10_7/APPD.PDF

We were indoctrinated to press onwards no matter what, but a few realities were indisputable despite the rhetoric:

1. Many if not most of our comrades (friends, strangers alike) would eventually die or be disabled eventually after being subjected to an attack, staying in place and pursuing the mission or defending ourselves.. (We still felt invulnerable).

2. There is no way to properly treat a patient in a MOPP 4 situation (full protective gear), and hardly any way to expediently decon them short of amputation; the chemicals in one wound could kill an entire closed shelter's worth of people.

3. Despite optimistic training, 2PAM chloride and atropine etc may keep you operating, but the effects of most war agents are not truly reversible. Burned is burned, nerve damage is nerve damage.

How has this affected the heads of so many of us medically trained "Baby Boomers"?
:mellow:


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## firecoins (Apr 11, 2010)

Great!!! The world is ending tomorrow.


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## mycrofft (Apr 11, 2010)

*Yeah, and me, without my front seat tickets!*


......


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## Melclin (Apr 12, 2010)

Whadaya getting at mate?

Are you suggesting that you olds take an "if they're buggered, then they're buggered" or a "If you can talk and walk, then you don't need medicine" approach?


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## mycrofft (Apr 12, 2010)

*Some might.*

It definitely affects your triage outlook when you learn MDIE instead of IDME and most of your Immediates can be anticipated to become Expectants.

You get a different outlook on death too. You have to think about and plan for it, over years.

Refusing contaminated casualties at the door, clearing and storing weapons, planning and building expedient structures with sandbags, anticipating the need to change gas mask filters in a contaminated environment...makes you want to stop reading about orange stethoscopes, sometimes. Not always, though; if it hadn't been done, maybe everyone would have to think about it still, so orange steths are OK.


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## joeshmoe (Apr 12, 2010)

Reminds me of back in bootcamp when they were telling us what to do when you get the all clear after a gas attack. After deconning they told us have the lowest ranking man remove his mask first(after relieving him of his weapon of course), then observing him for a period before having everyone else demask. 

So of course when youre a boot arriving at your first unit it was comforting to know you were the platoon guinea pig.

This was post cold war though.


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## mycrofft (Apr 12, 2010)

*Just watch your patients.*

h34r:.......


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## Tincanfireman (Apr 12, 2010)

How about the old SCPS?  We had a (very) few of these at Rhein Main back in the 80's; hard to figure how several thousand troops and DoD civilians were going to shelter during a heavy chem/bio scenario. Glad it never came to pass...h34r:


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## lightsandsirens5 (Apr 12, 2010)

Tincanfireman said:


> How about the old SCPS? We had a (very) few of these at Rhein Main back in the 80's; hard to figure how several thousand troops and DoD civilians were going to shelter during a heavy chem/bio scenario. Glad it never came to pass...h34r:


 Wow! And how long were you supposed to stay in there? Either until the Soviets overran you or NATO showed up and knocked on the door?


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## Tincanfireman (Apr 13, 2010)

lightsandsirens5 said:


> Wow! And how long were you supposed to stay in there? Either until the Soviets overran you or NATO showed up and knocked on the door?


 
It was designed as a sleeping/decon shelter; we were expected to continue our regular missions during our duty shift, then process into the SCPS at the end of the duty day to get new chem suits, eat a meal, and get some rest. It was a nice "in theory" solution, but I have great reservations about how well and how long we could have pulled it off. Something as simple as a clogged toilet system would have rendered it unuseable (don't laugh, ever eat MRE's for a week or six?), never mind getting new filters installed, etc.


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## mycrofft (Apr 13, 2010)

*Yeah, SCPSM, or "Skipsam"*

I think they still have them because I cannot find it listed anywhere, ergo, still "secret squirrel". Closest I've found is the link I posted above.
The Alpena National Readiness Training Center used to have one, allegedly, but they said it was such a hassle thay they stopped training folks in it. Was sort of near the old WWII hospital they used to have also.


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