# Anti-Immunization & Pro-Natural Child Birth



## tyler500e (Nov 3, 2009)

So I'm dating this girl and I just found out that her family is (for the most part) anti-immunization and pro natural (at home) child birth.  Apparently she was born at home and so were her siblings, with only a midwife there.  Also she swears up and down that she's never had any type of shot, immunization, or pain killer.  

Having never really interacted with someone like this, I felt I should at least educate myself a little or ask what you guys think about this.  Obviously, I think that refusing immunizations or any other development in healthcare is ignorant and asking for trouble.  Anyone have anything to add?

*edit* this is especially troublesome b/c she's cute


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## firecoins (Nov 3, 2009)

Anti immunization is often an ignorant position. However I recommend not calling her ignorant.  

I don't see why you can't date her.  You can always educate her IF she is willing to listen.

There is nothing wrong with natural childbirth until the pasin kicks in.  At least that is what every mother I have met says. All the power to them.


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## Aidey (Nov 3, 2009)

tyler500e said:


> *edit* this is especially troublesome b/c she's cute



I have no words for how asinine that statement is.


On topic, I would suggest talking to her about this, not getting the opinions of people who have no idea why she feels the way she does. In order to understand her you are going to have to talk to her and learn about the reasoning behind her opinions, and why she feels that she is right. 

You could easily turn this into a stimulating intellectual discussion between the two of you, as long as it is kept non-judgmental and you two respect each others opinions. 

Childbirth was around for thousands of years before epidurals were, having a pro-natural child birth stance really isn't all that radical or strange. Plenty of people who believe in modern medicine have had at home or natural deliveries.


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## tyler500e (Nov 3, 2009)

Aidey said:


> I have no words for how asinine that statement is.




Sarcasm is difficult to convey through text.


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## downunderwunda (Nov 3, 2009)

Natural childbirth is an everyday occurance, even at home with only a midwife present. Childbirth is a natural thing & I dont have a problem with that.

Not allowing for immunisation is another thing altogether.

Diseases such as Polio, that cause major defects & impact on the persons adult life. TB, is another, many of these diseases have not been seen for many years.

In Australia there was a decline in immunisation rates for a brief period, until we started to see these diseases reemerge, coming fro countries that do not have an immunisation policy or program. Yes there are risks with immunisation. Yes there are risks with taking any drug. But it has to be weighed with a benefit. The benefit to a nominal risk is a gaurentee of a disease free life & the opportunity to allow your child to grow up healthy. It is a choice here for parents, however, last figures showed we had again exceeded a 98% innocculation rate. 

Talk to her, but reseaqrch the problem, look at the rates that problems occur & ask her what her actual objection is & show her the results of failure to vaccinate


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## firecoins (Nov 3, 2009)

Some people believe in having children in ambulances. These people scare me.


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## LucidResq (Nov 3, 2009)

Natural childbirth is fine in nearly perfect pregnancies. I'm sorry, but working in OB-GYN, I have seen/heard way too many stories of absolutely tragic deaths from postpartum hemorrhage, eclampisa, etc to not support the use of physician-directed OB-GYN care in many circumstances. I think home birth is totally fine, as long as a highly-trained professional is attending and can recognize when it's time to get the patient to higher medical care. As my attending physician says, "pregnancy is not for sissies," and yes, it is a natural process but when things go wrong, they go WRONG and can kill young, otherwise healthy women and babies easily. In this day and age we have the resources to save these lives, and if a woman decides she would rather forgo these options, that's her choice, but I think it's important that she consider them. 

As far as vaccinations, see strong scientific proof supporting them ie: herd immunity.


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## atropine (Nov 3, 2009)

who really cares, as long as she is not avegan and doesn't have any hairy armpits.^_^


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## silver (Nov 3, 2009)

atropine said:


> who really cares, as long as she is not avegan and doesn't have any hairy armpits.^_^



whats wrong with veganism?

If you like her then go for it. If you dont you probably will regret your choice later. However you should never make your choice based on other peoples options...


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## firecoins (Nov 3, 2009)

my girlfriend is a vegen with hairy pits.  You want to smell em?


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## mycrofft (Nov 4, 2009)

*Firecoins, "Not the mother"....*

^_^

Most of our founding fathers were widowers due to complications from childbirth or subsequent breastfeeding and inadequate diet. The average age of our forebears was low because the high number of perinatal deaths skewed the curve left (folks still frequently lived to their nineties with luck good genes and basic sanitation).

Does natural childbirth mean no prenatal care?

You can't change people very much, good luck with this. And remember, cute wears thin.


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## wolfwyndd (Nov 4, 2009)

tyler500e said:


> So I'm dating this girl and I just found out that her family is (for the most part) anti-immunization and pro natural (at home) child birth.  Apparently she was born at home and so were her siblings, with only a midwife there.  Also she swears up and down that she's never had any type of shot, immunization, or pain killer.



Not saying this is true in THIS case, however, most of the people I've met who have never been immunized and done the whole natural childbirth did it for religious beliefs.  IE, unless you want to get into an argument with them over religion, don't broach this issue.  

On the other hand. . . . . . 

IF you, at some point, plan on marrying and / or having children with this person, you seriously need to talk about it.  IE, when YOU have children, do you want your children immunized?  Are you prepared to assist this woman giving birth in the home you live in?  Etc, etc, etc.  You need to discuss these things NOW and not AFTER you find out there is a pregnancy.  

Natural childbirth is a really wonderful thing . . . . . . for SOME people.  Not everyone.  I have three children.  The first one was with an epidural, the second an epidural was attempted, and failed (NINE FREAKIN' TIMES!!) other drugs were used, and the third with drugs, but no epidural also.  Not at home though, it was in a hospital.


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## guardian528 (Nov 4, 2009)

i have never received any immunizations. its not like people that haven't got them are crazy or something. just talk to her


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## Seaglass (Nov 4, 2009)

To be honest, I don't see the point of trying to convert her before getting to know her all that well. But if you're serious about the relationship, talk to her. People are anti-immunization for all kinds of reasons. To be honest, if I believed their materials, I'd be scared of shots too. 

I've also known a number of women who gave birth naturally with no problems. And some calls have come into my service where some women or their babies died or came close because they were giving birth naturally, didn't know when something was going wrong, and waited too long to call for help. Good midwives are trained to know when to call 911, and a lot of expectant mothers who want to give birth at home make arrangements for something going wrong. It can be done sanely.


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## bunkie (Nov 4, 2009)

Seaglass said:


> To be honest, I don't see the point of trying to convert her before getting to know her all that well. But if you're serious about the relationship, talk to her. People are anti-immunization for all kinds of reasons. To be honest, if I believed their materials, I'd be scared of shots too.
> 
> I've also known a number of women who gave birth naturally with no problems. And some calls have come into my service where some women or their babies died or came close because they were giving birth naturally, didn't know when something was going wrong, and waited too long to call for help. Good midwives are trained to know when to call 911, and a lot of expectant mothers who want to give birth at home make arrangements for something going wrong. It can be done sanely.



I agree with this.

However I'm personally against home birth from some of my own experiences in delivery. I think all birthing mothers should be as close to an OR as possible, just in case. But that's just me and based from my own experiences.


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## Seaglass (Nov 4, 2009)

bunkie said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> However I'm personally against home birth from some of my own experiences in delivery. I think all birthing mothers should be as close to an OR as possible, just in case. But that's just me and based from my own experiences.



I'd really like to see that... my service gets too many childbirth-gone-wrong calls. But I can see why some mothers would want to avoid hospitals, too, so I have a hard time holding anything against home-birthers who have a well-trained midwife, good prenatal care, no medical problems of their own, and no anticipated problems with delivery.

To be honest, they're rarely the problem for my area. Poor teenagers, immigrants who don't understand how our hospitals work, premature births, and crazy fundies are the usual suspects when a childbirth call comes in. 

In general, I just wish that local hospitals would be more supportive of mothers giving birth, so that people would be more comfortable doing it there instead of home.


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## bunkie (Nov 4, 2009)

Seaglass said:


> I'd really like to see that... my service gets too many childbirth-gone-wrong calls. But I can see why some mothers would want to avoid hospitals, too, so I have a hard time holding anything against home-birthers who have a well-trained midwife, good prenatal care, no medical problems of their own, and no anticipated problems with delivery.
> 
> To be honest, they're rarely the problem for my area. Poor teenagers, immigrants who don't understand how our hospitals work, premature births, and crazy fundies are the usual suspects when a childbirth call comes in.
> 
> In general, I just wish that local hospitals would be more supportive of mothers giving birth, so that people would be more comfortable doing it there instead of home.



I dont have issues with homebirth in those cases, but I still would personally steer the person (if they are my friend asking my advice) towards hospital delivery. Even anticipated normal deliveries can go so wrong so very fast. And I agree, a lot of the problem is with hospitals. Women want to skip one thing like avoiding an IV or cath and when they are told no/it's policy they skip the entire hospital all together. :sad:


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## Griff (Nov 4, 2009)

Seaglass said:


> To be honest, I don't see the point of trying to convert her before getting to know her all that well. But if you're serious about the relationship, talk to her. People are anti-immunization for all kinds of reasons. To be honest, if I believed their materials, I'd be scared of shots too.
> 
> I've also known a number of women who gave birth naturally with no problems. And some calls have come into my service where some women or their babies died or came close because they were giving birth naturally, didn't know when something was going wrong, and waited too long to call for help. Good midwives are trained to know when to call 911, and a lot of expectant mothers who want to give birth at home make arrangements for something going wrong. It can be done sanely.



I think it is important to note that, in the context of medical science, comparing home childbirth and immunization non-compliance is like comparing apples and oranges. Not vaccinating your children against an otherwise preventable disease because a former model and an actress told you it's bad is not the same as having a child outside of a hospital. Like *Seaglass* said, home birth (while I don't personally think it is a good exercise in risk management) is not necessarily insane.


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## medicdan (Nov 4, 2009)

Take a look:

http://www.slate.com/id/2232977/


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## rescue99 (Nov 4, 2009)

guardian528 said:


> i have never received any immunizations. its not like people that haven't got them are crazy or something. just talk to her



No immunizations? What was required in order to complete 3rd rides and clinicals? For instance; I've not had chicken-pox nor can I have the current vaccination against them. There is a procedure. As an working in the health field, it isn't about what I can catch but, more about what I may pass on.


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## thatJeffguy (Nov 4, 2009)

mycrofft said:


> Most of our founding fathers were widowers due to complications from childbirth or subsequent breastfeeding and inadequate diet.




I'm interested in seeing a source for what.



> The average age of our forebears was low because the high number of perinatal deaths skewed the curve left (folks still frequently lived to their nineties with luck good genes and basic sanitation).


The average age is never "low" or "high", it's average.  Compared to other numbers it might be low, or high.  I'd like to see a source for this as well, specifically, in agrarian America.


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## Griff (Nov 4, 2009)

emt.dan said:


> Take a look:
> 
> http://www.slate.com/id/2232977/



Good read. +1


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## bunkie (Nov 4, 2009)

emt.dan said:


> Take a look:
> 
> http://www.slate.com/id/2232977/



That isn't the case everywhere. My kids had to be fully vaccinated and then some before I could register them for daycare here. That includes the home facilities strictly for military use.


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## wolfwyndd (Nov 5, 2009)

rescue99 said:


> No immunizations? What was required in order to complete 3rd rides and clinicals?


I was actually thinking the same thing.  I was required to get all my immunizations updated before I was allowed to do clinicals OR ride alongs.


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## guardian528 (Nov 5, 2009)

wolfwyndd said:


> I was actually thinking the same thing.  I was required to get all my immunizations updated before I was allowed to do clinicals OR ride alongs.



in CA, there is always a box you can check that says no, i haven't, because of moral/religious/other beliefs


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## WTEngel (Nov 6, 2009)

These days people who decide to go without immunizations are relatively safe. This is only because they get an "immunization by proxy" due to 99% of the general public choosing to immunize themselves, which results in no cases of the viruses being present to spread to those who have no immunity.

Working in peds I encounter families from time to time who make a big deal about not immunizing, and come into the ER expecting us to roll out the red carpet and find them a room immediately, because they don't want their child exposed due to the lack of immunizations. Our usual protocol is to have them wear a mask... Triage still applies...

Anyway, like I said, even though I would never choose to do so, those who do decide to forego immunizations are only safe due to the high percentage of people who DO choose to immunize.


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## thatJeffguy (Nov 6, 2009)

WTEngel said:


> These days people who decide to go without immunizations are relatively safe. This is only because they get an "immunization by proxy" due to 99% of the general public choosing to immunize themselves, which results in no cases of the viruses being present to spread to those who have no immunity.


That is very interesting.  I've never thought of that.



> Working in peds I encounter families from time to time who make a big deal about not immunizing, and come into the ER expecting us to roll out the red carpet and find them a room immediately, because they don't want their child exposed due to the lack of immunizations. Our usual protocol is to have them wear a mask... Triage still applies...


Does the mask say "DUNCE" on it?   Or "MY PARENTS ARE DUNCES"


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## Sasha (Nov 6, 2009)

I will never understand people refusing immunizations. Even if they really did cause autism (yes, yes, I know it's completely BS) and autistic child is better than a dead child, is it not?


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## Medic744 (Nov 6, 2009)

There are plenty of hospitals willing to give a mother an experience as close to home birth as possible.  There is a women's hospital in our med center that the birthing suite is very much like a 5 star hotel suite and they allow you to do things your way as the mother, but they are there for the "just in case" moment. 

 As for immunizations it is a personal choice for each parent.  I choose to make sure my son is up to date on all his, but I do know parents that feel that this is not the right decision for them.  I refuse to see my son get sick or disabled from a disease that can be prevented.  My kid wont be hanging out with the one who didnt get the immunizations and be exposed to illness.  Most of these parents have weighed the risks and benefits and this is the right fit for them. 

 They do not have the right to ask for special treatment in an ER or anywhere else.  If anything they should be more vigilant about protecting their child from infection because other than their natural immunity they have no defenses.  Im also not sure about everywhere but here they can not attend public school because an up to date immunization record is required to enter school.  I know because in high school I get sent home until I got up to date on one of my shots.


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## wolfwyndd (Nov 6, 2009)

guardian528 said:


> in CA, there is always a box you can check that says no, i haven't, because of moral/religious/other beliefs


Cool!  Thanks for clarifying.  I just assumed that it would be the same way all over the US.  


> There are plenty of hospitals willing to give a mother an experience as close to home birth as possible. There is a women's hospital in our med center that the birthing suite is very much like a 5 star hotel suite and they allow you to do things your way as the mother, but they are there for the "just in case" moment.


One of our local HOSPITALS has a Women's CENTER that has a 'birthing center' that's set up about the same way.  My 2nd child and my 3rd child were born there.


> Im also not sure about everywhere but here they can not attend public school because an up to date immunization record is required to enter school. I know because in high school I get sent home until I got up to date on one of my shots.


MD and Ohio are the same way.  I went to public school in MD and I was required to have all my immunizations up to date and the local High School here in Ohio also require all immunizations to be up to date.


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## Seaglass (Nov 6, 2009)

Medic744 said:


> There are plenty of hospitals willing to give a mother an experience as close to home birth as possible.  There is a women's hospital in our med center that the birthing suite is very much like a 5 star hotel suite and they allow you to do things your way as the mother, but they are there for the "just in case" moment.



I wish local hospitals would pick up on this. To be honest, if I were pregnant, the closest hospital I'd want to handle it is quite a drive away. With the nearby ones, I've had friends and relatives tell me horror stories about not being allowed to refuse care, being administered drugs they were allergic to despite wearing a wristband, not having people they wanted allowed in the room, having people they didn't want allowed in, bad attitudes from the staff, and all sorts of other crazy stuff.


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## imhumanoid (Nov 7, 2009)

nvm


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