# Did I do everything I could have/did I do anything wrong?



## Blessed187 (Jul 28, 2011)

Hey Guys,

So after my second attempt at the NREMT I can now say I am officially an EMT-B.

The other day I was on the freeway heading home and I come up on traffic, it was pretty much all stopped. I look ahead and noticed traffic was clear so I knew there had to be something going on in front of me not too far up, as I got a better look I could see one car that had front end damage and the bumper was on the side of the road, I was already in the fast lane so I drove over to the left hand shoulder, and came upon the accident, I turned on my E light turned off my jeep and got out, I walked up to a young couple holding each other, they were visibly upset and both were crying. I said Hi, my name is Tasha I'm an EMT is anyone hurt? They said no, I asked what happened, the young girl said she was cut off by another car and when they connected the driver responsible for the crash took off, I asked how fast they were going the guy said about 60 mph, I said I know your emotions are high and your adrenalin is kicked in but are you in any pain whatsoever? They both shook their heads no, the young girl was very upset that the other driver had taken off. At about that time the paramedic unit showed up, I asked them if they got an LIC number or a description of the car and they couldn't recall much. I told them to hang in there I am going to go talk to the medics, the medic and the EMT-I were getting out of the rig, the EMT-I was walking towards me and I said hi, I this is a hit and run the two people involved say they are not hurt. He walked right past me without saying a word, so I went up to the medic as he was getting supplies from the side of the rig, I said Hi, I'm an EMT-B I asked them if they were hurt they said no, I told him it's a hit and run. Unless you have any questions for me I'm gonna get out of you guy's way. He said okay, thanks and walked toward the pt's. I got in my Jeep and left. 

Any comments, suggestions, advice? Did I do everything I could have done?

When I noticed no medics were on scean and no law enforcement I didn't hesitate to drive up to the accident. In my EMT class they stressed the importance of duty to act, on and off the clock. After all this is why I became an EMT, this is what I love. I guess I want to make sure I did the right things.


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## MSDeltaFlt (Jul 28, 2011)

You showed up, assessed the situation, enhanced everybody's calm, and then gave a report to the oncoming crew offering (not demanding) help.  You did just fine.


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## Anjel (Jul 29, 2011)

I wouldn't of stopped. 

You put yourself in danger on the side of a busy highway. What if they were hurt? What would you of done? Called 911? You can do that from your car. 

If you get in the habit of stopping at every accident you could open yourself up for a lawsuit. Your best tool is a cell phone. 

You will be a good EMT. Just use your head.


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## Blessed187 (Jul 29, 2011)

:huh: I'll take the risk of a lawsuit to save someone's life, if my best "tool" is a cell phone then why the hell did I become an EMT???? O no wait, I'm only allowed to help someone who may be hurt while on the clock?? WTF?


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## Handsome Robb (Jul 29, 2011)

Our highways are sketchy with all this construction. Be careful please.


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## Blessed187 (Jul 29, 2011)

NVRob said:


> Our highways are sketchy with all this construction. Be careful please.



I hear you Rob, it was 395 N 1/2 mile south of the airport exit, just to give you an idea. I felt it was safe enough and I didn't have Natalya in the car so I stopped.


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## ffemt8978 (Jul 29, 2011)

Blessed187 said:


> :huh: I'll take the risk of a lawsuit to save someone's life, if my best "tool" is a cell phone then why the hell did I become an EMT???? O no wait, I'm only allowed to help someone who may be hurt while on the clock?? WTF?



You asked for opinions and comments...and that's what you got.  If you don't want them, then don't ask for them.

In the mean time, you may want to look at these threads
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=17607
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=2124

There's a valid reason for not stopping, and just calling it in.


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## Anjel (Jul 29, 2011)

Blessed187 said:


> :huh: I'll take the risk of a lawsuit to save someone's life, if my best "tool" is a cell phone then why the hell did I become an EMT???? O no wait, I'm only allowed to help someone who may be hurt while on the clock?? WTF?



You have no tools with you. You can't do anything to help anyone. 

I am no risking my safety for someone else. Or did you skip that chapter and go right to the "cool stuff"


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## hoss42141 (Jul 29, 2011)

Anjel1030 said:


> I wouldn't of stopped.
> 
> You put yourself in danger on the side of a busy highway. What if they were hurt? What would you of done? Called 911? You can do that from your car.
> 
> ...



The state I live in, you are covered by the good Samaritan law. Also if you come up on an accident and you are in the EMS field and do nothing and you leave you can be sued for not giving medical attention. Just thought I would throw that out there. Not every state has the same rules for EMS, just keep that in mind.


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## Handsome Robb (Jul 29, 2011)

That is not the case in the great state of Nevada. No duty to act if you are not on the clock.


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## ffemt8978 (Jul 29, 2011)

hoss42141 said:


> The state I live in, you are covered by the good Samaritan law. Also if you come up on an accident and you are in the EMS field and do nothing and you leave you can be sued for not giving medical attention. Just thought I would throw that out there. Not every state has the same rules for EMS, just keep that in mind.



Which state is that, and can you provide a link to the law that says you must render aid?  Or is it already listed in this thread?  Duty to Act Info


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## Blessed187 (Jul 29, 2011)

hoss42141 said:


> The state I live in, you are covered by the good Samaritan law. Also if you come up on an accident and you are in the EMS field and do nothing and you leave you can be sued for not giving medical attention. Just thought I would throw that out there. Not every state has the same rules for EMS, just keep that in mind.




My point as well, thank you.


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## ffemt8978 (Jul 29, 2011)

And it has already been pointed out that NV does NOT have a Duty to Act law when you are off duty.

In addition, the Good Samaritan law generally does not cover you when you operate beyond the level of first aid.  Each state has different Good Samaritan laws, and I haven't read the law for NV so I don't know if it would cover you if you were to treat a patient as an EMT-B instead of a lay rescuer.


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## Sasha (Jul 29, 2011)

Blessed187 said:


> :huh: I'll take the risk of a lawsuit to save someone's life, if my best "tool" is a cell phone then why the hell did I become an EMT???? O no wait, I'm only allowed to help someone who may be hurt while on the clock?? WTF?



that's the only time you're covered by workers comp.

it's the only time I'll stop and help.


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## Blessed187 (Jul 29, 2011)

ffemt8978 said:


> You asked for opinions and comments...and that's what you got.  If you don't want them, then don't ask for them.
> 
> In the mean time, you may want to look at these threads
> http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=17607
> ...




If the fact that I even stopped was the only thing that was going to be discussed I would have never even asked, I was referring to what I did for the people involved in the MVA, I made the choice to stop and I stand by that choice. I have two BIG EMS stickers on my back window, how would that look if I just rolled on by when no one was on site to help them yet? I could have EASILY been sued for not stopping or offering to help in anyway.


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## HotelCo (Jul 29, 2011)

Blessed187 said:


> If the fact that I even stopped was the only thing that was going to be discussed I would have never even asked, I was referring to what I did for the people involved in the MVA, I made the choice to stop and I stand by that choice. I have two BIG EMS stickers on my back window, how would that look if I just rolled on by when no one was on site to help them yet? I could have EASILY been sued for not stopping or offering to help in anyway.



Take off the stickers then.


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## Anjel (Jul 29, 2011)

Blessed187 said:


> I could have EASILY been sued for not stopping or offering to help in anyway.



ok... Brush up on your laws.


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## hoss42141 (Jul 29, 2011)

ffemt8978 said:


> Which state is that, and can you provide a link to the law that says you must render aid?  Or is it already listed in this thread?  Duty to Act Info



I live in KY. I will have to find the link, but that is the way it was a couple of years ago. I had a friend who is a medic, get a summons for court because he came up on an accident and didn't stop to help. Someone who knew he was a medic told the police that he drove on by and didn't stop. That is how they found out he was there.


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## Sasha (Jul 29, 2011)

you couldn't have been sued. You were off the clock, had no duty to act, and no protection if you did stop.


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## Blessed187 (Jul 29, 2011)

Sasha said:


> that's the only time you're covered by workers comp.
> 
> it's the only time I'll stop and help.



I'm just baffled by that, I have no problem risking the unknown to help someone in need. I assumed that's the whole point of being in the EMS field, wither your on or off the clock anything could happen in any type of situation, your gonna let someone possibly die on the side of the road when you could possibly save their life.....? I guess I just don't understand that type of thinking... I just wanna help where I can, when I can.


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## Sasha (Jul 29, 2011)

WHERE in the EMS books does it say your life is worth less than others, and that you are supposed to put your life on the line for other people who are already sick/injured?

Who is going to support your family or pay your medical bills when you're in the hospital from getting run over? 

Do you know hospital bills are one of the leading causes of bankruptcy?


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## ffemt8978 (Jul 29, 2011)

Blessed187 said:


> If the fact that I even stopped was the only thing that was going to be discussed I would have never even asked, I was referring to what I did for the people involved in the MVA, I made the choice to stop and I stand by that choice. I have two BIG EMS stickers on my back window, how would that look if I just rolled on by when no one was on site to help them yet? I could have EASILY been sued for not stopping or offering to help in anyway.



You can be sued for anything.  You're also making the assumption that the people involved would have noticed your stickers, remembered your vehicle description and license plate, and then gone through the effort to have you identified from the plate, find a lawyer willing to file the lawsuit and have you served, and then be able to make the case that because you didn't stop you caused further harm to the victims.

You come up on the scene of an accident, in a vehicle with two "BIG EMS" stickers on it and an "e light" on a jeep.  You have no equipment to treat anybody who is seriously injured, so what's the best tool you have available to you to help them?  A cell phone.

The aid that you are going to be able to give when off duty is limited to very basic first aid.  If they are seriously injured nothing you are going to be able to do on scene is going to make much difference in their final outcome.



> In my EMT class they stressed the importance of duty to act, on and off the clock.


  Your class taught you wrong, then.  NV does not require you to act when off duty.


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## ffemt8978 (Jul 29, 2011)

hoss42141 said:


> I live in KY. I will have to find the link, but that is the way it was a couple of years ago. I had a friend who is a medic, get a summons for court because he came up on an accident and didn't stop to help. Someone who knew he was a medic told the police that he drove on by and didn't stop. That is how they found out he was there.



If you do find the law, please update the other thread and I will update the first post.  Thanks.


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## Blessed187 (Jul 29, 2011)

Anjel1030 said:


> You have no tools with you. You can't do anything to help anyone.
> 
> I am no risking my safety for someone else. Or did you skip that chapter and go right to the "cool stuff"



LMFAO! I couldn't have done anything to help huh? Do you just stand around all day and collect a pay check? The "cool stuff" as you mentioned involves how to save someone's life and offer care at an EMT-B level. If your just in it to save your own *** why would you be in the field to help others?


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## ffemt8978 (Jul 29, 2011)

Blessed187 said:


> LMFAO! I couldn't have done anything to help huh? Do you just stand around all day and collect a pay check? The "cool stuff" as you mentioned involves how to save someone's life and offer care at an EMT-B level. If your just in it to save your own *** why would you be in the field to help others?



Seriously, what can you do as a lay rescuer that would actually save somebody's life?  Use an AED if you have one with you, perform the Heimlich Maneuver, and apply dressings to bleeding.

At the EMT-B level, there are a few other things that can be done, but remember, when you stop at the side of the road while off duty, you are NOT responding as an EMT-B.


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## Sasha (Jul 29, 2011)

Sweetheart you will learn EMS is rarely saving a life. The "cool stuff" you talk about is not part of the day to day. Do yourself a favor and get out of this "always on" mentality and learn what EMS really is.


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## mycrofft (Jul 29, 2011)

*Partially disagreeing with ffemt*

"The aid that you are going to be able to give when off duty is limited to very basic first aid. If they are seriously injured nothing you are going to be able to do on scene is going to make much difference in their final outcome".
Actually, learning when not to do something will be the greatest good, especially when you are unequipped and understaffed and EMS is not far off.


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## Handsome Robb (Jul 29, 2011)

Edited for bad reading comprehension haha


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## ffemt8978 (Jul 29, 2011)

mycrofft said:


> "The aid that you are going to be able to give when off duty is limited to very basic first aid. If they are seriously injured nothing you are going to be able to do on scene is going to make much difference in their final outcome".
> Actually, learning when not to do something will be the greatest good, especially when you are unequipped and understaffed and EMS is not far off.


I agree with that, and was working up to it.  



NVRob said:


> I'll argue the point that even as a layperson, bleeding control, the heimlich and AED use is all ok.
> 
> AED isn't available on the freeway though so that point is moot.



That's what I said.  As a lay rescuer, those are about the only interventions I could think of that would actually "save somebody's life".


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## Anjel (Jul 29, 2011)

Just give it a year. She will change. she will realize it isn't about saving lives. It is about just helping others and doing no harm.


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## Blessed187 (Jul 29, 2011)

There are lot's of things an EMT-B can do for a patient with no medical supplies.

Some of you just get on here just to pick fights and look down your nose at people who are of a different skill set. I asked for simple comments regarding the situation as a whole not to nit pick and the fact I chose to stop to offer whatever help I could, and talk about law suits and other non-important bs. I really have to wonder why the hell some of you are in EMS at all. Is that all you care about? Then to get on here and talk a bunch of crap when YOU yourselves have posted threads asking others for basic input?


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## HotelCo (Jul 29, 2011)

Blessed187 said:


> There are lot's of things an EMT-B can do for a patient with no medical supplies.



Such as?


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## Sasha (Jul 29, 2011)

You seem to be good at telling who should and shouldn't be in EMS.


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## ffemt8978 (Jul 29, 2011)

Blessed187 said:


> There are lot's of things an EMT-B can do for a patient with no medical supplies.
> 
> Some of you just get on here just to pick fights and look down your nose at people who are of a different skill set. I asked for simple comments regarding the situation as a whole not to nit pick and the fact I chose to stop to offer whatever help I could, and talk about law suits and other non-important bs. I really have to wonder why the hell some of you are in EMS at all. Is that all you care about? Then to get on here and talk a bunch of crap when YOU yourselves have posted threads asking others for basic input?



But you weren't acting as a EMT-B when you stopped...you were acting as a lay rescuer.  If you provide care beyond what is the accepted norm for a lay rescuer, you can face the following actions:
1) Lose your EMT cert
2) Be sued
3) Be charged with practicing medicine without a license

Since NV requires EMT-B's to be affiliated with an agency and have medical direction, have you brought up this incident with them?


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## Blessed187 (Jul 29, 2011)

Sasha said:


> You seem to be good at telling who should and shouldn't be in EMS.



No that's your job, remember?


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## JPINFV (Jul 29, 2011)

Blessed187 said:


> :huh: I'll take the risk of a lawsuit to save someone's life, if my best "tool" is a cell phone then why the hell did I become an EMT???? O no wait, I'm only allowed to help someone who may be hurt while on the clock?? WTF?



Realistically, what are you going to do to treat a car accident victim without the proper tools to do the job? The best thing you can do is communicate a proper assessment to 911 to ensure the correct amount of resources is dispatched.


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## Handsome Robb (Jul 29, 2011)

MVA standard response is ILS Engine, ALS unit, 2 pd. If extrication is needed a truck responds on top of the engine and the engine can clear once the extrication is complete. Always a charged line with a FF in full PPE including SCBA during extrication operations here.


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## JPINFV (Jul 29, 2011)

hoss42141 said:


> Also if you come up on an accident and you are in the EMS field and do nothing and you leave you can be sued for not giving medical attention.


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## mycrofft (Jul 29, 2011)

*ffemt, got ya. I thought so. Note to OP.*

OP, yeah, the forum can seem top-heavy with criticism and folks can seem overly flippant and sarcastic.

There is a strong sentiment here against _"eager beaver new folks responding on their off time_", (aka "Whackers") and it has become an archetype.

*Not to say this applies to you*, but many of us have seen eager but unequipped and unexperienced people flittering around events and it is bothersome, not to mention dangerous. Many of us were one of "those people" when we started. (NOTE: many obvious typos and lack of syntax in a post also seems to initiate negative responses too).

I think you did ok, and will continue to develop a personal and "professional" ethic and philosophy with time and experience, as we all should. In response to your original question, you did more than you could have done, you did no harm. Not looking down my nose, just speaking from experience. (Looking down my nose just makes me cross-eyed).:wacko:


A sidebar to the gallery, not exactly appropos to this: "Good Samaritan", at least in California, will not cover you if superior medical authority is present and you continue to freelance; this was adopted, I'm told, to curtail people squatting in waiting rooms or parking lots and offering to treat or give advice, but also establishes the on-scene supremacy of arriving official medical EMS. Interestingly, giving or taking of a report between official and ad hoc responders is not covered. That will be next year....


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## mycrofft (Jul 29, 2011)

*JPINV, yes in (at least) California you can be cited if you have started care.*

You can leave if it is unsafe, or to get help or the pt is deceased (that counts as getting help I guess), but part of "good faith" is to remain once care is initiated. I was told the rationale was that other potential good sams might pass by if they see someone is helping; if you split, then the aid process starts all over, but later and maybe with a sicker pt.
Not stopping at all...I know some states might have laws forbidding health professionals from driving by without stopping (Nebraska was considering one when I left) but it is essentially unenforceable and probably unconstitutional.

I am getting that "5=4" feeling about playing the "you could be sued" card in discussion.

I heard about a lifeguard who was sued by the parents of a kid he restrained (without injury) from knifing someone he argued with at a volleyball game. 

Suits are like bees, sometimes you just get stung no matter what, but don't drip honey on yourself and complain when you get nailed big time.


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## JPINFV (Jul 29, 2011)

mycrofft said:


> Not stopping at all...I know some states might have laws forbidding health professionals from driving by without stopping (Nebraska was considering one when I left) but it is essentially unenforceable and probably unconstitutional.



...however I think this this the main point. Even stopping and putting in a phone call is not something that I'd consider creating a patient-provider relationship that opens the provider up to liability if they leave.


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## nwhitney (Jul 29, 2011)

Blessed187 said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> So after my second attempt at the NREMT I can now say I am officially an EMT-B.
> 
> ...



First I applaud you willingness to stop and help. 

Second, from the point of stopping and making sure the people were ok to leaving I think what you did was fine. I understand the desire to help others and even risking your life to do so. However, MVA's are dynamic and dangerous. If you were to get hurt how could you help the people who you originally stopped to help?  It's very important to not let someones emergency become your emergency.  How much of scene safety did you take into account?  Again aside from the issue of stopping I think what you did was fine.


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## jmh (Jul 29, 2011)

Blessed187 said:


> There are lot's of things an EMT-B can do for a patient with no medical supplies.
> 
> Some of you just get on here just to pick fights and look down your nose at people who are of a different skill set. I asked for simple comments regarding the situation as a whole not to nit pick and the fact I chose to stop to offer whatever help I could, and talk about law suits and other non-important bs. I really have to wonder why the hell some of you are in EMS at all. Is that all you care about? Then to get on here and talk a bunch of crap when YOU yourselves have posted threads asking others for basic input?



you opened the door for criticism upon yourself. you need to learn not to be so defensive and come to terms that other peoples opinions might be right. ultimately, everyone here that responded was trying to help you, not bash on you. try being a little more open-minded if you're going to ask questions.

your heart is definitely in the right place but when it comes to EMS, emotions are the first thing you should be detached from. your mind is your greatest tool you possess. 

i think everyone will agree that the first things they learned in EMT training is BSI and scene safety. you had no PPE, no safety equipment. regardless of whether or not the actual scene was safe for you to enter, the reality is that it wasn't because you were not properly equipped to enter it.

personally, i think duty to act laws are bull:censored::censored::censored::censored: unless the state is willing to provide every EMS worker with the proper supplies, equipment, etc.


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## dixie_flatline (Jul 29, 2011)

Well... this conversation certainly spiraled out of control rather quickly.

It does bring up something that has really been bugging me.  My EMT class _did_ go over the idea of being on the clock/in uniform to "act as an EMT" - but I've never been clear on the details of what the heck that actually means?  Where is the list of things that are OK for a "layperson", and the things that are _verboten_?

There isn't much in my scope as a Basic that I wasn't taught to do in the Boy Scouts, and in that capacity I certainly wasn't acting under any medical direction.  I was taught to apply pressure, bandage, even tourniquet hemorrhaging (actually back then we learned elevation and pressure points too).  We did burn and blister care, we were frighteningly well-practiced in the art of tick removal, and came close to dealing with some nasty venomous snake bites.  We even went over how to give an epi because we had kids in our troop with bee allergies and were out hiking the AT. We were all CPR/AED certified, practiced in the Heimlich, and splinted like champs.  Frankly, I can't think of anything other than administering O2, charcoal, nitro, and glucose that I wasn't already doing before I became an EMT.

That said, to the OP - the first (and second, third, and fourth) things we learned in class were safety - and ours trumps everyone else. There are a bunch of reasons - first and foremost is that putting yourself in unnecessary risk increases the likelihood of adding another patient (which will tie up even more resources).  One of the axioms we lived by at the academy was "Risk a little to save a little; risk a lot to save a lot".  It wasn't wrong of you to stop and assess the situation, but judging by your description of the vehicular damage and state of the victims as you rolled up, there was nothing you could do other than palliative emotional support.  On the other hand, you were placing yourself in danger (as evidenced by the linked threads) - you were effectively risking a lot to save very little.  If it had been a rollover crash, with massive damage, people ejected, etc and no one on-scene, then by all means stop if you are comfortable with the danger.

There are 2 major types of people in EMS as I see it - those who view it as a calling/honor (mainly us volunteers), and those who view it as a paycheck (and yes there is overlap between the two groups).  If your job is to do EMS 24 hours a day, every 3 days, it absolutely does not make sense for you to give that skill up for free every time you see a fender bender.  And as was pointed out, if Sasha stops to render aid on her day off and gets clipped by a car, she most assuredly will not be covered by workman's comp.  Now there are 2+ patients to deal with on that scene, and Sasha has to figure out how to pay her new hospital bills and feed little Sashette.  Please don't judge others for their pragmatic approach to these things, nor question their motives or reasons for being in EMS.  To a lot of people, it's just a job (albeit an important one), and a job isn't worth risking your family and your life over.


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## MrBrown (Jul 29, 2011)

Bloody ricky rescue gung ho over zealous Americans 

Brown is going to slow down and have a squiz, and would stop only to try and drag some bloke out from his burning car or put pressure on his massive arterial bleed but other than that, no there is nothing that Brown can do except sit there and wait for the Fire Service or Ambulance to arrive so why bother stopping?


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## dixie_flatline (Jul 29, 2011)

MrBrown said:


> Bloody ricky rescue gung ho over zealous Americans
> 
> Brown is going to slow down and have a squiz, and would stop only to try and drag some bloke out from his burning car or put pressure on his massive arterial bleed but other than that, no there is nothing that Brown can do except sit there and wait for the Fire Service or Ambulance to arrive so why bother stopping?



Other than the fact that I had to look up the word _squiz_, Brown basically just summed up my wall o' text.


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## Shishkabob (Jul 29, 2011)

Blessed187 said:


> There are lot's of things an EMT-B can do for a patient with no medical supplies.



Please, do tell?


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## jmh (Jul 29, 2011)

dixie_flatline said:


> Well... this conversation certainly spiraled out of control rather quickly.
> 
> Please don't judge others for their pragmatic approach to these things, nor question their motives or reasons for being in EMS.  To a lot of people, it's just a job (albeit an important one), and a job isn't worth risking your family and your life over.



totally agree... and Blessed, i wasn't trying to be mean. just trying to explain where everyone else is coming from. do what you think is right, but do it smart and safe


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## fast65 (Jul 29, 2011)

Linuss said:


> Please, do tell?



Dial 911, wait for first responders, do the EMS dance, the list goes on

Sent from my mobile command center


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## DesertMedic66 (Jul 29, 2011)

fast65 said:


> Dial 911, wait for first responders, do the EMS dance, the list goes on
> 
> Sent from my mobile command center



Yep that's about all. I've stopped at 2 accidents. I somehow always forget to mention that I'm an EMT. I do a quick look while driving. If it looks really bad then I might stop and help a little bit. If it doesn't look bad then I keep driving and call 911.


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## medichopeful (Jul 29, 2011)

Blessed187 said:


> I'm just baffled by that, I have no problem risking the unknown to help someone in need. I assumed that's the whole point of being in the EMS field, wither your on or off the clock anything could happen in any type of situation, your gonna let someone possibly die on the side of the road when you could possibly save their life.....? I guess I just don't understand that type of thinking... I just wanna help where I can, when I can.



While I applaud you for wanting to help, and that's something to be admired and that you should be proud of, consider the fact that if you get hurt or killed, you may not get to ever help anybody again.  You'll probably do more for people over the long run than if you stop to help someone and get injured or killed.


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## rmabrey (Jul 29, 2011)

hoss42141 said:


> The state I live in, you are covered by the good Samaritan law. Also if you come up on an accident and you are in the EMS field and do nothing and you leave you can be sued for not giving medical attention. Just thought I would throw that out there. Not every state has the same rules for EMS, just keep that in mind.



Same here, I am protected by Good Samaritan law when off the clock, but I also do not have a duty to act.


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## firetender (Jul 29, 2011)

*What can you live with?*

Coming across a situation where someone's life is in danger and you have the luxury of choice to intervene or not happens in an instant. My experience is that you have a moment of opportunity to take advantage of and -- especially in life-or-death situations -- it's a now or never thing.

The time taken to assess your risk (or liability, because let's face it, many who speak of their safety also include fear of lawsuit) stands between you and taking action. That could mean that the moments during which you could get something done and do it safely pass and danger is compounded.

Once the decision is made to, for example, notify EMS and wait, what's left to do is watch what happens as nature takes its course.

What could you stomach? And were you to choose to stand by as someone dies needlessly, would you not go over and over again the actions you chose not to take and the way they may have affected the outcome?

Every action, or inaction, carries with it consequences. Living with yourself, and protecting your future as well, has as much to do with the actions you choose NOT to take as it does with the actions you choose to take.

I'm thinking of an earlier thread by abckidsmom about her coming across a guy whose car had just jumped the jacks and pinned his head under it. She took action, the guy got out okay which would have been unlikely without her intervention, and, yes, he was an ungrateful SOB, as could be predicted.

My guess is abckidsmom stepped in and then, moment by moment, choice by choice, took specific actions each of which were directed by her overriding desire to not be harmed.

In many of the responses here, I don't see as much decision-making (including assessments of the odds) as I see the setting of arbitrary boundaries. "I would never" does not speak about the reality of the moment one is thrust into.

Has anyone here been in that situation where, choosing to NOT intervene, they watched as the affected person died?

I bet not.

And whoever may have probably has a lot to teach us.


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## Sasha (Jul 29, 2011)

Good Sam law only prevents a lawsuit. Who is going to take care of your hospital bills? Who is going to supplement your income and support your family when you got yourself hit on scene?


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## abckidsmom (Jul 29, 2011)

firetender said:


> Has anyone here been in that situation where, choosing to NOT intervene, they watched as the affected person died?
> 
> I bet not.
> 
> And whoever may have probably has a lot to teach us.



Last week, I was riding on the Engine when a cardiac arrest was dispatched.  We were the closest unit by far, just happened to be returning from a fire call.  We pulled up, a crew of 3, with me and another medic, and our driver was a BLS provider.

Went in the EMS compartment and there. was. no. equipment.  None.  We had left for a house fire, and the EMS equipment was on the other unit that we usually staff.  

So we looked at the dead guy on the porch, pulled him down on the ground and started hands-only CPR.  We actively chose NOT to do any kind of ventilations, continuing compressions until the medic unit arrived.

He started breathing on his own during the CPR anyway, so we just kept on.  When we finally got him on the monitor (prob after 4 minutes or so) he was in vfib, so we shocked and converted him to NSR.  Score!

Anyway.  I would have made the same decision and been satisfied with it even if he died.  He looked about 70, had a PEG tub and a zipper scar on his sternum.  If his time had come, he had too many risks for having something communicable for me to risk any sort of mouth to mouth.  Here's me laying down an "I would never."

I really would never do mouth to mouth on a stranger if I could possibly avoid it.


And about your actual question, firetender, I think that choosing to do nothing has a lot to do with turning your back, so the people who make that decision don't typically watch the person die.

I've decided not to get involved because of my own reasons plenty of times:  pregnancy, babies, small children and being late can really wreck a samaritan's day.   Each time, and in each situation, I've ultimately been comfortable that I did all that was reasonable.  I think people get to decide on their own whether to get involved, with no guilt needed if they don't want to.

There is a lot of sense in the question though:  What's an EMT-B going to do at the basic traffic accident while they wait for the ambulance?  Not much, really.  I typically don't stop, either...but I'm usually travelling heavy.


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## mycrofft (Jul 29, 2011)

*Threefer..good Sam and unequipped EMT*

1. Good Samaritan will NOT prevent your being sued, it is intended to protect you from liability. That means it may go to court if the judge allows it, because there may be a question as to whether the conditions of being  a "Good Samaritan" were met. (If I stopped and put a traction splint on the wrong leg while telling you I'd seen it on "EMERGENCY!" once, wouldn't you want to be able to sue?
2. Things an unequipped EMT can do...divert traffic, tell folks to turn off their ignitions and pocket the keys, call it in, get license number and description if anyone starts leaving the scene, stop self-extrication from wnadering into traffic, stand by with an extinguisher, get first aid supplies from your trunk or from neighbors/passers-by and start treating self-extrications, stop other people from getting into danger by being heroes...a lot of things to do.
3. If you sniff around too much and someone steals something or it is missing (and that DOES happen) then you are a suspect.


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## Shishkabob (Jul 29, 2011)

firetender said:


> Has anyone here been in that situation where, choosing to NOT intervene, they watched as the affected person died?



DNRs count?


If so, yes.


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## firetender (Jul 30, 2011)

Linuss said:


> DNRs count?


 
If you get to the house and they are dead and you don't resuscitate them, then you didn't watch them die, you just didn't intervene.

If you get to the house and they are conscious, and then they go pulseless and apneic, and you don't do anything, then, yes, technically you're watching them die.

But the scenario described is about coming on to a scene, off-duty and acting or not acting with life and death in the balance...horse of a different color. 

We're paid to live with the reality of DNR's in our work. Here, we're talking about what it's like to stand by and watch as someone dies with the possibility that your inaction hastened it.

Ever lived through that one?


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## abckidsmom (Jul 30, 2011)

firetender said:


> If you get to the house and they are dead and you don't resuscitate them, then you didn't watch them die, you just didn't intervene.
> 
> If you get to the house and they are conscious, and then they go pulseless and apneic, and you don't do anything, then, yes, technically you're watching them die.
> 
> ...



One of my favorite hens got some kind of respiratory infection and we made the decision that we needed kill her.  The hubby was at work, and I needed to control the spread of the infection among my flock.  It was my responsibility to wring her neck, and I just couldn't do it.  Instead, I put her in a feed bag and, well, let's just say it was a more gruesome end.

It sucked.  And that was only a chicken.


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## bstone (Jul 31, 2011)

When I first became an EMT I kept a BLS trauma bag in my trunk and had a few EMS decals on the car. I stopped once for a motorcycle vs ground on the interstate and ended up keeping the guy alive until an ambulance arrived. The guy turned out to be a cop and my cousin the chief of that department. I didn't do much other than keeping his C-spine stable and bleeding control, but it was more than enough to calm all the bystanders and (most importantly) the injured himself.

Now, 10 years later, I no longer carry a BLS bag or any EMS decals. I do carry a CPR mask and gloves on my keychain, but that's about it. I'd still stop at a true emergency, but won't when it's just a fender bender.


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## Sasha (Jul 31, 2011)

Linuss said:


> DNRs count?
> 
> 
> If so, yes.



Ditto. We do quite a few hospice calls. Ive watched a few die en route, and sometimes held their hands more for my comfort than theirs.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## hippocratical (Jul 31, 2011)

Wow, I'm a crotchety old bαstard but even I am amazed at the response of the experienced crowd here.

You're a trained medical first responder (or whatever local nomenclature). You have the skill set to actually help someone. If we change this from MVA to someone having trouble in a Walmart (relative scene safety aside from Mullets everywhere) would you walk-on-by too?

Sure an EMT-B might not have the super razor sharp assessment skills of a Paramedicgod, but there's still help that can be provided. 

If the scene is dangerous - Don't go in. If the scene turns dangerous - GTFO. No BSI PPE? - Don't touch 'em. Not authorised to do procedure ABC? - Don't do procedure ABC. No equipment? - Do your best! *To not even assess is madness!*

In the OPs case there was no help to be provided. But you don't know till you go see. Maybe the driver could have had a C-Spine injury and her freaked-out boyfriend is trying to yank her out of the car by her head. Who knows.

I'm an innately selfish person but I'm baffled by the thought process of _"Sucks to be them, see ya"_


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## HotelCo (Jul 31, 2011)

hippocratical said:


> You're a trained medical first responder (or whatever local nomenclature). You have the skill set to actually help someone. If we change this from MVA to someone having trouble in a Walmart (relative scene safety aside from Mullets everywhere) would you walk-on-by too?



Unless there's an immediate, known life threat (choking is what comes to mind), then yes, I will walk on by. 

Edit: even at that point, I wouldn't identify myself as a paramedic.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bstone (Jul 31, 2011)

The book says we have a "moral and ethical" obligation to respond to emergencies that we happen to come across while off-duty. Legality isn't the only thing that is very important to EMTs. We're health care providers. Ethics and morality is just as important as legality, if not more important.


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## Martyn (Jul 31, 2011)

bstone said:


> The book says we have a "moral and ethical" obligation to respond to emergencies that we happen to come across while off-duty. Legality isn't the only thing that is very important to EMTs. We're health care providers. Ethics and morality is just as important as legality, if not more important.


 
I think that sums it up quite well...moral and ethical...did we not become first responders/EMT's/paramedics etc to help our fellow man (or woman), or have we become so jaded we have forgotten?


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## hippocratical (Jul 31, 2011)

Anjel1030 said:


> You have no tools with you. You can't do anything to help anyone.



I find this sort of thing weird too - If this were the case, then why do organisations like the Red Cross spend time and money training millions of people around the world First Aid? They sure as hell can do less than an EMT-B!


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## Anjel (Jul 31, 2011)

hippocratical said:


> I find this sort of thing weird too - If this were the case, then why do organisations like the Red Cross spend time and money training millions of people around the world First Aid? They sure as hell can do less than an EMT-B!



No bandages, no equipment, no PPE at all.

She could stand there look at a person and saw oohh they need an ambulance. It was dangerous to stop on the side of a high way. People were already standing outside of their car. I really don't see a need to stop. 

If I saw a car flipping of the road and landing upside down in the ditch full of water. And I at least had my reflective jacket and gloves with me. I would stop. 

But the accident had already happened. They were out of the car. Nothing life threatening. 911 was already called. No reason to put your self in danger


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## Sasha (Jul 31, 2011)

Martyn said:


> I think that sums it up quite well...moral and ethical...did we not become first responders/EMT's/paramedics etc to help our fellow man (or woman), or have we become so jaded we have forgotten?



I did it because i like medicine.

Morality wont protect you from a texting driver or a law suit.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## Sasha (Jul 31, 2011)

And really how many more people are you going to help if youre dead, maimed, or homeless?

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## Anjel (Jul 31, 2011)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To1EYtzmQRw[/YOUTUBE]

And when its just you in your POV this is a very real possibility too. At least with the ambulance I can park in a way in which I hope can protect me.


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## Sasha (Jul 31, 2011)

Anjel1030 said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To1EYtzmQRw[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> And when its just you in your POV this is a very real possibility too. At least with the ambulance I can park in a way in which I hope can protect me.



And even if it doesn't protect you, you are covered if you're hit.


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## Tigger (Jul 31, 2011)

Anjel1030 said:


> And when its just you in your POV this is a very real possibility too. At least with the ambulance I can park in a way in which I hope can protect me.



And even then, I hope fire is coming is coming with one of their 25,000 pound apparati that will have a much better chance of diverting an errant vehicle.


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## JPINFV (Jul 31, 2011)

bstone said:


> The book says we have a "moral and ethical" obligation to respond to emergencies that we happen to come across while off-duty. Legality isn't the only thing that is very important to EMTs. We're health care providers. Ethics and morality is just as important as legality, if not more important.




...and who ever wrote that text book can include anything they want about their moral code. However I don't have to abide by someone else's moral code.


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## bstone (Jul 31, 2011)

It's the EMT moral code. If you don't wish to abide by it then you ought to stop being an EMT. BTW, it's the AAOS that wrote it. Shall I provide a page number for you?


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## Sasha (Jul 31, 2011)

Thirdly, the Code is more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules


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## JPINFV (Jul 31, 2011)

bstone said:


> It's the EMT moral code. If you don't wish to abide by it then you ought to stop being an EMT. BTW, it's the AAOS that wrote it. Shall I provide a page number for you?




...why should I care what the AAOS puts out if I don't want to be an orthopedic surgeon?

If I don't want to abide by it? I never remember giving an oath to uphold it to begin with. 

Finally, the definition to "respond" is left to interpretation. Ensuring that 911 has been called is "responding" appropriately to the vast number of emergencies out there.


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## bstone (Jul 31, 2011)

Then I assume you also don't care about being an EMT? Just saying since the AAOS writes the EMT book and also run the Emergency Care and Safety Institute.


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## JPINFV (Jul 31, 2011)

AAOS writes a book. There are other books out there. Similarly, running a training institute means nothing, or is AMR similarly godly for running NCTI?


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## IvanD (Jul 31, 2011)

I think we might be upset at the wrong people, I feel that other countries might have a vastly different view on this issue based on how likely the medical provider is to be sued in an event of a mishap (in the scenario where scene is safe).


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## bstone (Jul 31, 2011)

So if writing the book, setting the standards and running a training institute isn't good enough then what is?


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## Tigger (Jul 31, 2011)

bstone said:


> It's the EMT moral code. If you don't wish to abide by it then you ought to stop being an EMT. BTW, it's the AAOS that wrote it. Shall I provide a page number for you?



That is patently ridiculous. Where in that code, that was not written for EMS providers to begin with, mention putting the patient's life above your own life? Furthermore, if I am not on duty, how am I at all obligated to be held to some sort of BS "code" of standards? What I do off duty is no one's business but my own, and it has no bearing what so ever in the performance of my job as an EMT. Your morals and thoughts on ethics may differ from mine. That's life.

Taking a class that gives you the knowledge to render care at a level above (albeit slightly) of the layperson does not obligate one to care for everyone's injuries, in any capacity, while not acting in the capacity of an EMS provider.

That said, I'll stop at some accidents. If someone is waving at traffic for help or there is a vehicle with serious damage with no occupants readily visible, I will stop. I don't carry a jump kit or anything, I just want to make sure that 911 has been called and any immediate life threats have been controlled if possible. If I know that the area is served by BLS services and I can tell ALS may be needed, I'll let the local dispatch know when I call it in.

That all gets thrown out the window of course, if I don't think that I am reasonably safe from passing traffic.


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## JPINFV (Jul 31, 2011)

bstone said:


> So if writing the book, setting the standards and running a training institute isn't good enough then what is?




1. "A book" is not the same as "the book." Indefinite and definite articles, how do they work? 

2. AAOS is not the only group involved with setting the standards. The standards, however, are rather laughable anyways. 

3. So, again, you recognize that AMR is an authority on EMS operations because they run a much larger training institute?


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## EMT-MA (Jul 31, 2011)

Just my two cents! If I was in a car accident I would be happy to have a concerned citizen stop and provide comfort if nothing else. Maybe it is just me but if an accident happened in front of me I would call 911 and pull over in a safe area and render whatever care within my scope of practice. Carry a jump kit in my car.


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## bstone (Jul 31, 2011)

AMR is not a educational institution, they are a for-profit corporation that happens to run a few classes. They don't write the book, they don't have an educational standards institute. Please do not mistake me for respecting AMR's classes and authoritative.

AAOS is part of the group that defines EMS standards. AMR is not. If you disagree with the AAOS then you should find a source that does help to set standards that will support your position.

It goes like this:

1) Argument is made
2) Source is provided
3) Is source reliable? Yes or no. In this case, 'yes'.
4) Disagree is offered
5) Source is not yet provided. Please provide a reliable source for your position. I await your reply.


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## Sasha (Jul 31, 2011)

i took no oath or code, so I am not bound to it.


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## bstone (Jul 31, 2011)

Sasha, you accepted it when you decided to continue with your EMS education. You probably were tested on it, or were at least informed of it.


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## MrBrown (Jul 31, 2011)

bstone said:


> The book says we have a "moral and ethical" obligation to respond to emergencies that we happen to come across while off-duty. Legality isn't the only thing that is very important to EMTs. We're health care providers. Ethics and morality is just as important as legality, if not more important.



You are correct partially sir; ethics and morality are very important in medicine.  

Can we call somebody with a 100 and something hour course from the stone age a "health care provider"? That is a debate for another topic and is irrelevant anyway for contextual purposes here and now



Martyn said:


> I think that sums it up quite well...moral and ethical...did we not become first responders/EMT's/paramedics etc to help our fellow man (or woman), or have we become so jaded we have forgotten?



You are also partially correct ... yes BUT does that mean Brown is going to stop on the highway at an accident with no high vis vest, no Police having shut down the road and no other resources? Hell no!  Your personal safety is paramount



bstone said:


> It's the EMT moral code. If you don't wish to abide by it then you ought to stop being an EMT. BTW, it's the AAOS that wrote it. Shall I provide a page number for you?



That book is not worth the paper it is printed on.

Again, Brown thinks anybody feels some sort of moral obligation to help if they see some dude flip their car, but come on, you have to consider your safety first and whether or not your stopping actually going to do anything.


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## JPINFV (Jul 31, 2011)

bstone said:


> AMR is not a educational institution,


1. AAOS is not an educational institution. They are a professional association. 

2. NCTI, which is run by AMR, is an educational institution. 



> they are a for-profit corporation that happens to run a few classes. They don't write the book, they don't have an educational standards institute. Please do not mistake me for respecting AMR's classes and authoritative.


Again, AAOS wrote "a book," not "the book." Do you understand the difference between "a" and "the"?



> AAOS is part of the group that defines EMS standards. AMR is not. If you disagree with the AAOS then you should find a source that does help to set standards that will support your position.


So, wait, didn't you just state that AAOS set the standard? 



> It goes like this:
> 
> 1) Argument is made
> 2) Source is provided
> ...


So if I publish a book, I'm all of a sudden an irrefutable standard, especially when it comes to morals and ethics? Furthermore, do you understand that ethics is more than just what is written by a single party in a single book? Ethics and morals is not the same as a debate based on facts, as neither are fact based disciplines. To say that the AAOS code of ethics is superior to all else is like saying that Christian ethics is superior to all other religious based ethics.

Alternately, are you completely unable to think for yourself?


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## Sasha (Jul 31, 2011)

Uhm negative. What I was tested on was scene safety. No moral or ethical code to put my life at risk for others.


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## bstone (Jul 31, 2011)

Brown, you do have to consider safety primarily. I entirely agree with you. If the scene is not safe then do not start care. Does doesn't stop you from waiting in a safe place until it does become safe, and calling 911 in the meantime.


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## bstone (Jul 31, 2011)

JPINFV, I await for you to provide a reliable source that states there is no moral or ethical requirement for an off-duty EMT to render care when care is needed. I am ignoring everything else you say for the sake of civility.


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## JPINFV (Jul 31, 2011)

You really don't understand how ethics and morals work.


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## silver (Jul 31, 2011)

Morals are in the eye of the beholder. Just because someone says it is the ethical thing to do means nothing to me. In fact listening to what you are told is amoral.


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## Sasha (Jul 31, 2011)

The lack of duty to act laws in most of the states is a glaring example that there is no moral or ethical code EMTs must adhere to.


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## bstone (Jul 31, 2011)

Sasha said:


> Uhm negative. What I was tested on was scene safety. No moral or ethical code to put my life at risk for others.



I wonder where you understand that moral and ethical responsibility equates to putting your life at risk. I certainly never suggested that. If the scene is not safe then do not render care until such time that it is. Wait away from the scene, at a safe distance. If the scene is safe, however, and you fail to render care when it is necessary then you have violated the moral and ethical duty to respond.


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## bstone (Jul 31, 2011)

Sasha said:


> The lack of duty to act laws in most of the states is a glaring example that there is no moral or ethical code EMTs must adhere to.



Legality≠ethical or moral obligation


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## ffemt8978 (Jul 31, 2011)

silver said:


> Morals are in the eye of the beholder. Just because someone says it is the ethical thing to do means nothing to me.



WINNNER!!!!  The same applies to ethics.


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## Sasha (Jul 31, 2011)

Your ethics and morals are not my own.


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## JPINFV (Jul 31, 2011)

So, what is the punishment if I fail to abide by the AAOS "ethical code?"


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## Sasha (Jul 31, 2011)

ten lashing with a wet noodle!


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## bstone (Jul 31, 2011)

ffemt8978 said:


> WINNNER!!!!  The same applies to ethics.



Which is why there are Ethic Committees at hospitals, to decide that the ethical thing to do is. In the case of someone needing emergency medical care, the scene being safe and you not providing the care, the ethical standard would be violated.


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## bstone (Jul 31, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> So, what is the punishment if I fail to abide by the AAOS "ethical code?"



If someone fails to follow the normal ethical standard and they are caught, then it can cause them to lose their license to practice. This has happened to many doctors. A semi-famous one lost his California medical license because he unethically treated a woman who came to him for fertility treatments.


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## Sasha (Jul 31, 2011)

Where has a doctor or other HCP lost their license for not stopping at an accident in a state where there are no duty to act laws?


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## ffemt8978 (Jul 31, 2011)

bstone said:


> Which is why there are Ethic Committees at hospitals, to decide that the ethical thing to do is. In the case of someone needing emergency medical care, the scene being safe and you not providing the care, the ethical standard would be violated.



Correct...but committees use more than one book as a basis for establishing their ethic requirements.  You've stated the AAOS book has a moral and ethical requirement that applies in this scenario.  Is that same requirement present in Brady and/or Mosby?

If not, how can it be a moral and ethical requirement for all EMT's to render aid in this situation?


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## JPINFV (Jul 31, 2011)

Sasha said:


> ten lashing with a wet noodle!


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## silver (Jul 31, 2011)

bstone said:


> If someone fails to follow the normal ethical standard and they are caught, then it can cause them to lose their license to practice.



you are assuming everyone uses normative/principle ethics.

nobody expects the spanish inquisition.


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## bstone (Jul 31, 2011)

ffemt8978 said:


> Correct...but committees use more than one book as a basis for establishing their ethic requirements.  You've stated the AAOS book has a moral and ethical requirement that applies in this scenario.  Is that same requirement present in Brady and/or Mosby?
> 
> If not, how can it be a moral and ethical requirement for all EMT's to render aid in this situation?



I cannot tell you what the other books say. I have three times asked for JPFNIV to reply with a reliable source of his own demonstrating that there is debate on this topic. He has yet to make an on-topic reply. I eagerly await his reply, however.


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## Tigger (Jul 31, 2011)

bstone said:


> JPINFV, I await for you to provide a reliable source that states there is no moral or ethical requirement for an off-duty EMT to render care when care is needed. I am ignoring everything else you say for the sake of civility.



I await for you to actually show me where there _is_ moral or ethical requirement for an off-duty EMT to render care when care is needed. I certainly do not remember reading that in my textbook.

Even if I did read it, I am not required to accept any sort of moral code. It is also not a condition of my certification or employment that I do so.

Furthermore, the argument that I accepted the code because I chose to include EMS in my knowledge base is at best, rather poor.


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## bstone (Jul 31, 2011)

silver said:


> you are assuming everyone uses normative/principle ethics.
> 
> nobody expects the spanish inquisition.



While I would like to think that all EMTs adhere to the established ethical standard I know this is not the case. They are, afterall, human.


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## ffemt8978 (Jul 31, 2011)

bstone said:


> I cannot tell you what the other books say. I have three times asked for JPFNIV to reply with a reliable source of his own demonstrating that there is debate on this topic. He has yet to make an on-topic reply. I eagerly await his reply, however.


He's made plenty of on-topic replies...they're just not what you want to hear.


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## JPINFV (Jul 31, 2011)

bstone said:


> Which is why there are Ethic Committees at hospitals, to decide that the ethical thing to do is. In the case of someone needing emergency medical care, the scene being safe and you not providing the care, the ethical standard would be violated.




I'd love to see a hospital ethics committee have a discussion about a physician who passes a car accident without stopping. Of course hospital ethics committees generally deal with more complex cases and have cases referred to them for consideration so that a physician isn't acting as a lone wolf. Things like, "When do we pull the plug" makes that committee rather important.


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## bstone (Jul 31, 2011)

Tigger said:


> I await for you to actually show me where there _is_ moral or ethical requirement for an off-duty EMT to render care when care is needed. I certainly do not remember reading that in my textbook.
> 
> Even if I did read it, I am not required to accept any sort of moral code. It is also not a condition of my certification or employment that I do so.
> 
> Furthermore, the argument that I accepted the code because I chose to include EMS in my knowledge base is at best, rather poor.



It's in the first two chapters of the AAOS book "Emergency Care and Transportation of the Sick". It's within the topics of medicolegal isues and talks about the ethical and moral responsibility to respond to emergencies when off duty.


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## Tigger (Jul 31, 2011)

bstone said:


> I cannot tell you what the other books say. I have three times asked for JPFNIV to reply with a reliable source of his own demonstrating that there is debate on this topic. He has yet to make an on-topic reply. I eagerly await his reply, however.



Don't confuse "off-topic" with "disagreement." It doesn't do much for your argument to challenge the other side with underhanded slights


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## JPINFV (Jul 31, 2011)

bstone said:


> If someone fails to follow the normal ethical standard and they are caught, then it can cause them to lose their license to practice. This has happened to many doctors. A semi-famous one lost his California medical license because he unethically treated a woman who came to him for fertility treatments.



Are we talking about Octomom now? After all, that's exactly like someone who fails to stop at the scene of an accident. 

Furthermore, I'd love to see the AAOS try to get an EMT or paramedic's state license revoked because they broke the AAOS code of ethics.


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## bstone (Jul 31, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> I'd love to see a hospital ethics committee have a discussion about a physician who passes a car accident without stopping. Of course hospital ethics committees generally deal with more complex cases and have cases referred to them for consideration so that a physician isn't acting as a lone wolf. Things like, "When do we pull the plug" makes that committee rather important.



Hospital ethics committees would usually state that a doc who drives by an accident should not stop, as they are not trained as emergency responders. Physicians enjoy to leave emergencies to the properly trained (yes, I realize there are notable exceptions that we can begin to discuss, but let's not, ok?).

JPINFV, I still look forward to you supplying a reliable source that would indicate debate on the topic of stopping at the scene of an emergency where medical help was necessary, the scene was safe and you being present.


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## silver (Jul 31, 2011)

bstone said:


> While I would like to think that all EMTs adhere to *the* established ethical standard I know this is not the case. They are, afterall, human.



a

possibly one of many.


----------



## bstone (Jul 31, 2011)

silver said:


> a
> 
> possibly one of many.



Please qualify your statement by providing a reliable source that indicates a different opinion on this matter. I look forward to seeing it.


----------



## JPINFV (Jul 31, 2011)

ffemt8978 said:


> He's made plenty of on-topic replies...they're just not what you want to hear.


Holy role reversal batman! It feels strange actually being on topic for a change.


----------



## ClarkKent (Jul 31, 2011)

bstone said:


> Shall I provide a page number for you?



If you where able to provide a page number, that might end all of this.  I am just saying.


----------



## bstone (Jul 31, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> Are we talking about Octomom now? After all, that's exactly like someone who fails to stop at the scene of an accident.
> 
> Furthermore, I'd love to see the AAOS try to get an EMT or paramedic's state license revoked because they broke the AAOS code of ethics.



Yes, Octomom's fertility doctor lost his CA medical license because they ruled he acted unethically. He was also expelled from his professional association. Acting unethically can cause one to lose their professional certification or license.


----------



## bstone (Jul 31, 2011)

ClarkKent said:


> If you where able to provide a page number, that might end all of this.  I am just saying.



Just a few moments, I am getting up to find the book.


----------



## JPINFV (Jul 31, 2011)

bstone said:


> JPINFV, I still look forward to you supplying a reliable source that would indicate debate on the topic of stopping at the scene of an emergency where medical help was necessary, the scene was safe and you being present.



You really don't understand how ethics work apparently, so I'll ask a single, simply question. What's the AAOS's source for their code of ethics? Alternatively, do they get to determine unilaterally what the code of ethics contains?


----------



## JPINFV (Jul 31, 2011)

bstone said:


> Yes, Octomom's fertility doctor lost his CA medical license because they ruled he acted unethically. He was also expelled from his professional association. Acting unethically can cause one to lose their professional certification or license.




...and you're putting the ethical situation of not stopping on your day off at the same level as Octomom's doc?


----------



## usalsfyre (Jul 31, 2011)

I used the Brady books for both Basic and Medic, and don't remember there being anything in there about off-duty "moral and ethical obligations" so I guess I'm good, since only those using that specific Jones and Bartlett book would have to adhere to that code .

A patient basically has to be laying in the roadway for me to stop at an accident anymore. I used to, but realized I'm usually more of a hinderance than help.


----------



## Sasha (Jul 31, 2011)

bstone said:


> Yes, Octomom's fertility doctor lost his CA medical license because they ruled he acted unethically. He was also expelled from his professional association. Acting unethically can cause one to lose their professional certification or license.



Octomom and her doctor had a physician/patient relationship established and he was supposed to act in the best interest of her and her future children which he failed to do.

There is no provider patient relationship with me and the guy on the side of the road.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## bstone (Jul 31, 2011)

Alright, here's what it says about ethics on page 79 and 80:
"The EMT Code of Ethics, available at the NAEMT website, outlines ethical expectations of EMTs."

Here is the Oath and Code of Ethics for the EMT:
http://www.naemt.org/about_us/emtoath.aspx

The beginning of it reads:
A fundamental responsibility of the Emergency Medical Technician is to conserve life, to alleviate suffering, to promote health, to do no harm, and to encourage the quality and equal availability of emergency medical care.

I don't see anything there that says, "only when on duty".


----------



## Sasha (Jul 31, 2011)

bstone said:


> Alright, here's what it says about ethics on page 79 and 80:
> "The EMT Code of Ethics, available at the NAEMT website, outlines ethical expectations of EMTs."
> 
> Here is the Oath and Code of Ethics for the EMT:
> http://www.naemt.org/about_us/emtoath.aspx



I am not associated naemt, or nremt. The code doesnt apply.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## JPINFV (Jul 31, 2011)

"Duty To Act

...

If you are off duty and not functioning in an EMS capacity, however, in most states you have no more legal obligation to act than any other citizen.

...

If you are off duty from your paid or volunteer service and publicly respond to a page for assistance at an emergency call, or if you come across a scene *and decide* to stop to provide emergency care, you will create a duty to act because of your intent to provide emergency care, even though you are off duty. [it goes on to discuss the ramifications of someone else thinking that you are a part of the official response and, thus, 911 is never contacted]

...

Ethical Responsibilities

Your ethical responsibilities include these:


Serve the needs of the patient with respect for human dignity, without regard to nationality, race, gender, creed, or status
Maintain skill mastery...
Keep abreast of changes in EMS affecting patient care...
Critically review performances...
Report with honesty...
Work harmoniously with other EMTs, nurses, physicians, and other members of the health care team."
-Brady Prehospital Emergnecy Care, 7th ed. pg 31-32.

Strangely missing? "Must respond when off duty."


----------



## ffemt8978 (Jul 31, 2011)

bstone said:


> Alright, here's what it says about ethics on page 79 and 80:
> "The EMT Code of Ethics, available at the NAEMT website, outlines ethical expectations of EMTs."
> 
> Here is the Oath and Code of Ethics for the EMT:
> http://www.naemt.org/about_us/emtoath.aspx



And I see nothing there that states a moral or ethical requirement to render aid when off duty.


----------



## bstone (Jul 31, 2011)

Ah, so the Oath and Code only apply when on duty?


----------



## usalsfyre (Jul 31, 2011)

ffemt8978 said:


> And I see nothing there that states a moral or ethical requirement to render aid when off duty.



Beat me to it. I don't even see anything that could be misconstrued that way.


----------



## silver (Jul 31, 2011)

bstone said:


> Please qualify your statement by providing a reliable source that indicates a different opinion on this matter. I look forward to seeing it.


I don't know where you live, but I don't live in a military state that enforces some sort of morality.

So normative ethics are the most popular.

there are 3 different main types:
virtue
deontological
consequentialism

So at the end of life many traditionally trained clinicians will use principles/rules stemming from deontology (autonomy, beneficence, justice, and maleficence). However an astute clinician might use virtues. The results are different, meaning there isn't one standard. 


Qualified.


----------



## JPINFV (Jul 31, 2011)

bstone said:


> Alright, here's what it says about ethics on page 79 and 80:
> "The EMT Code of Ethics, available at the NAEMT website, outlines ethical expectations of EMTs."
> 
> Here is the Oath and Code of Ethics for the EMT:
> ...



I don't see anything that requires me to act off duty either.


----------



## EMT-MA (Jul 31, 2011)

*Not feeling the love!!*



Sasha said:


> There is no provider patient relationship with me and the guy on the side of the road.



Hope you are not a practicing EMT near Massachusetts! Maybe you should look for another line of work besides patient care?


----------



## bstone (Jul 31, 2011)

Are you an EMT when you're off duty? Does the Oath and Code only apply when on duty? Answer those and we'll be able to conclude this fascinating conversation.


----------



## ffemt8978 (Jul 31, 2011)

bstone said:


> Ah, so the Oath and Code only apply when on duty?



It appears that way...I see several references to professional, but none to off duty.


----------



## bstone (Jul 31, 2011)

ffemt8978 said:


> It appears that way...I see several references to professional, but none to off duty.



Alright, then we can agree to disagree. 

Have a great night, ffemt!


----------



## JPINFV (Jul 31, 2011)

bstone said:


> Ah, so the Oath and Code only apply when on duty?



I would say that, when it comes to issues regarding direct patient care, it only has any force when you have a duty to act, but that duty created by being on duty or when off duty and you act in a manner to create a duty to act. However a duty to act when off duty is not created by proximity.


----------



## bstone (Jul 31, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> I would say that, when it comes to issues regarding direct patient care, it only has any force when you have a duty to act, but that duty created by being on duty or when off duty and you act in a manner to create a duty to act. However a duty to act when off duty is not created by proximity.



I understand your position. I disagree with it, so we'll agree to disagree.


----------



## usalsfyre (Jul 31, 2011)

Let's be 100% honest. Most of us aren't going to pass by an obvious life threat. The question is should we have to go looking for them. I personally am not going to.


----------



## Sasha (Jul 31, 2011)

EMT-MA said:


> Hope you are not a practicing EMT near Massachusetts! Maybe you should look for another line of work besides patient care?



So you have a provider/patient relationship with everyone you meet?

I am awesome at patient care and wont consider somewhere else, thanks. 

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## JPINFV (Jul 31, 2011)

EMT-MA said:


> Hope you are not a practicing EMT near Massachusetts! Maybe you should look for another line of work besides patient care?



Has MA OEMS come out with an official position statement requiring off duty EMS providers to stop and render aid since I left MA?


----------



## Tigger (Jul 31, 2011)

bstone said:


> Ah, so the Oath and Code only apply when on duty?



No, it never applies. It does not apply, because I never read the damn book that keep you holding higher than the bible. There are other textbooks out there that cover the same material, as you are no doubt aware. On duty, I am bound by the policies of my agency, which are similar to the code you have listed below. Since it is a contingency of my employment, I follow the list.

Off-duty, why should the same code apply?

I still cannot believe that the crux of your argument is based off a code that was at best pulled out of the air by a group of surgeons and then placed in a book that not everyone in this field has read. Surely you are not serious.


----------



## bstone (Jul 31, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> Has MA OEMS come out with an official position statement requiring off duty EMS providers to stop and render aid since I left MA?



No, they are too busy collecting fees and trying to figure out how to ruin EMS in MA.


----------



## JPINFV (Jul 31, 2011)

usalsfyre said:


> Let's be 100% honest. Most of us aren't going to pass by an obvious life threat. The question is should we have to go looking for them. I personally am not going to.


Furthermore, assuming I stop, it doesn't mean I'm going to identify myself as anyone having any extra training.


----------



## Sasha (Jul 31, 2011)

Ps i feel like i have a good reason for an opinion on this. My aunt was killed administering first aid on a seldom traveled county road. Ill provide links for those interested.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## bstone (Jul 31, 2011)

Sasha said:


> So you have a provider/patient relationship with everyone you meet?
> 
> I am awesome at patient care and wont consider somewhere else, thanks.
> 
> Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk



Yes, for every single patient you meet you immediately establish that relationship. If the person isn't your patient, but is instead a friend/relative/lover/alien, then you don't establish that relationship unless they have an emergency and you volunteer to help.


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## ClarkKent (Jul 31, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> "Duty To Act
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Duty to act
"The duty to act is not always clear.  It depends on your state and local law.  In many states,an off-duty EMT has no legal obligation to provide care"

page 55-56
Emergency Care 11th edition by Brady (EMT-B)

I might have a duty to act.  I will act by picking up my phone and calling 911 (US).  When off duty you are just a layperson.


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## Sasha (Jul 31, 2011)

Actually dont have to ask.

http://forums.banditalley.net/index.php?topic=3292.0;wap2

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## bstone (Jul 31, 2011)

Sasha said:


> Ps i feel like i have a good reason for an opinion on this. My aunt was killed administering first aid on a seldom traveled county road. Ill provide links for those interested.
> 
> Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk



That absolutely sucks and is terrible. EMTs also lose their lives when working in the back of the ambulance, due to accidents and such. Does that mean you won't also work in the back of an ambulance?


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## JPINFV (Aug 1, 2011)

bstone said:


> I understand your position. I disagree with it, so we'll agree to disagree.




So, what changed your mind that AAOS might not be completely infallible?


----------



## Tigger (Aug 1, 2011)

EMT-MA said:


> Hope you are not a practicing EMT near Massachusetts! Maybe you should look for another line of work besides patient care?



This is a joke right? You are aware that there is absolutely no duty to act while off-duty in Massachusetts right? Just because you happen to carry a jump kit around ready to respond to any sort of malady or accident you find does not make you a superior provider to anyone.


----------



## Sasha (Aug 1, 2011)

bstone said:


> Yes, for every single patient you meet you immediately establish that relationship. If the person isn't your patient, but is instead a friend/relative/lover/alien, then you don't establish that relationship unless they have an emergency and you volunteer to help.



They are not patients til i iniate care, and im not intiating care off duty.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## usalsfyre (Aug 1, 2011)

My question us why are you so interested in trying to make people act off-duty? No other health profession struggles with this issue that I'm aware of.


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## bstone (Aug 1, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> So, what changed your mind that AAOS might not be completely infallible?



My mind hasn't changed. I said we are agreeing to disagree.


----------



## bstone (Aug 1, 2011)

Sasha said:


> They are not patients til i iniate care, and im not intiating care off duty.
> 
> Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk



Just curious- what would you do if you were in one of the states that require anyone with EMS training to render care and makes it a criminal act to fail to do so?


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## Tigger (Aug 1, 2011)

bstone said:


> That absolutely sucks and is terrible. EMTs also lose their lives when working in the back of the ambulance, due to accidents and such. Does that mean you won't also work in the back of an ambulance?



That is a completely different scenario and you know it.


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## Sasha (Aug 1, 2011)

bstone said:


> That absolutely sucks and is terrible. EMTs also lose their lives when working in the back of the ambulance, due to accidents and such. Does that mean you won't also work in the back of an ambulance?



I take percautions. I am protected if i get hurt by workers comp and no one will come sue me for being in the back of the truck.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## EMT-MA (Aug 1, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> Has MA OEMS come out with an official position statement requiring off duty EMS providers to stop and render aid since I left MA?



Just my opinion if someone gets in an accident in front of me I am going to stop and render care as it is the way I was brought up to help my fellow citizen. You can do whatever you want!


----------



## Sasha (Aug 1, 2011)

bstone said:


> Just curious- what would you do if you were in one of the states that require anyone with EMS training to render care and makes it a criminal act to fail to do so?



I would never work in those states.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## bstone (Aug 1, 2011)

usalsfyre said:


> My question us why are you so interested in trying to make people act off-duty? No other health profession struggles with this issue that I'm aware of.



I guess it's something about no other health professional practicing their trade in the middle of a 5 lane superhighway.


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## ffemt8978 (Aug 1, 2011)

bstone said:


> I guess it's something about no other health professional practicing their trade in the middle of a 5 lane superhighway.



You mean like flight RN's?  Do they have a moral and ethical duty to help when off duty?


----------



## bstone (Aug 1, 2011)

ffemt8978 said:


> You mean like flight RN's?  Do they have a moral and ethical duty to help when off duty?



I haven't checked into their Oath or Code recently. What does it say?


----------



## usalsfyre (Aug 1, 2011)

bstone said:


> I guess it's something about no other health professional practicing their trade in the middle of a 5 lane superhighway.


Nothing about the care we provide is special because it's done out-of-hospital as opposed to in-hospital. What EMS tends to be masters at is the logistics of transport, which isn't really our concern off-duty is it?


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## JPINFV (Aug 1, 2011)

bstone said:


> Does that mean you won't also work in the back of an ambulance?



No, but I think that people who commonly work in the back of an ambulance without their seat belt on are idiots almost to the point of deserving any injuries they get when in an accident. I have the same view for people who drive emergency vehicles recklessly because they "have the right of way" when the lights and sirens are on.


----------



## JPINFV (Aug 1, 2011)

EMT-MA said:


> Just my opinion if someone gets in an accident in front of me I am going to stop and render care as it is the way I was brought up to help my fellow citizen. You can do whatever you want!



So your opinion is now the ethical standard for MA? Personally, whether I stop or not is dependent on a lot of issues, including location, to give a definite "stop/no stop" argument.


----------



## bstone (Aug 1, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> No, but I think that people who commonly work in the back of an ambulance without their seat belt on are idiots almost to the point of deserving any injuries they get when in an accident. I have the same view for people who drive emergency vehicles recklessly because they "have the right of way" when the lights and sirens are on.



I won't go as far as to call them 'idiots' but it surely would have been *easily* avoided.


----------



## bstone (Aug 1, 2011)

usalsfyre said:


> Nothing about the care we provide is special because it's done out-of-hospital as opposed to in-hospital. What EMS tends to be masters at is the logistics of transport, which isn't really our concern off-duty is it?



We'll agree to disagree. EMS is a completely different animal from in-hospital care.


----------



## Sasha (Aug 1, 2011)

bstone said:


> I won't go as far as to call them 'idiots' but it surely would have been *easily* avoided.



Ofcourse theyre idiots. Anyone who rides in a vehicle without a seat belt is an idiot.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## Tigger (Aug 1, 2011)

EMT-MA said:


> Just my opinion if someone gets in an accident in front of me I am going to stop and render care as it is the way I was brought up to help my fellow citizen. You can do whatever you want!



If it's only your opinion, maybe you should stop calling out those that disagree with you?

Also, what is the point of state mandating that I stop at an accident off duty. That could easily put the provider in a bad position, and what business does the state have being involved in what people do off duty?

Not to mention, such a law is almost unenforceable. Even if you are silly enough to have placed large EMS related stickers on your vehicle, there is no way to prove that you were actually driving the vehicle at that time.


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## bstone (Aug 1, 2011)

Sasha said:


> Ofcourse theyre idiots. Anyone who rides in a vehicle without a seat belt is an idiot.
> 
> Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk



You might be right, but I'll just refrain from using bad words.


----------



## ClarkKent (Aug 1, 2011)

Sasha said:


> I would never work in those states.



I agree wit Sasha on this one.  The Good Samaritan Laws will only cover you so far.  

The Good Samaritan Laws
"designed to provide limited legal protection for *citizens*(which you are one off-duty) and some health care personal when they are administering emergency care.  

Page 56 Emergency Care by barndy​


----------



## JPINFV (Aug 1, 2011)

bstone said:


> I won't go as far as to call them 'idiots' but it surely would have been *easily* avoided.



Is there a better term? It's about on par with riding a motorcycle without appropriate equipment. People don't get to complain about safety when they fail to avail themselves to the current safety equipment provided.


----------



## JPINFV (Aug 1, 2011)

bstone said:


> You might be right, but I'll just refrain from using bad words.



Idiot is a bad word?


----------



## bstone (Aug 1, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> Is there a better term? It's about on par with riding a motorcycle without appropriate equipment. People don't get to complain about safety when they fail to avail themselves to the current safety equipment provided.



I'll let other people do the name calling. If one fails to use proper safety when operating or riding in a motor vehicle then they have used *extremely poor judgement*.


----------



## usalsfyre (Aug 1, 2011)

bstone said:


> We'll agree to disagree. EMS is a completely different animal from in-hospital care.


We can agree to disagree all you want, science pretty well proves physiology, pathophysiolgy, pharmacology, ect doesn't change because of the lack of walls.


----------



## EMT-MA (Aug 1, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> So your opinion is now the ethical standard for MA? Personally, whether I stop or not is dependent on a lot of issues, including location, to give a definite "stop/no stop" argument.



You can say whatever you want! Your entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine! Stop or don't stop, I don't really care what you do or don't do!


----------



## bstone (Aug 1, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> Idiot is a bad word?



Yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiot

"An idiot, dolt, or dullard is a mentally deficient person, or someone who acts in a self-defeating or significantly counterproductive way. "

It's not nice to make fun of the mentally deficient.


----------



## JPINFV (Aug 1, 2011)

bstone said:


> I guess it's something about no other health professional practicing their trade in the middle of a 5 lane superhighway.



...all the more reason not to go into a situation with out the proper safety equipment, like a big vehicle with flashing lights telling people to slow down and move to another lane.


----------



## JPINFV (Aug 1, 2011)

bstone said:


> Yes.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiot
> 
> ...




"1. an utterly foolish or senseless person.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/idiot"


1. Additionally, calling a spade a spade is not making fun of someone. 

2. Are you willfully ignoring the "or someone who acts in a self-defeating or significantly counterproductive way" part?


----------



## bstone (Aug 1, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> ...all the more reason not to go into a situation with out the proper safety equipment, like a big vehicle with flashing lights telling people to slow down and move to another lane.



Yes, I absolutely 100% agree. (5th time I've said this. I'm counting.)

For someone who faints while in life at the movie theater, or clutches their chest and goes down at a restaurant, etc etc the scene is much easier to deem 'safe'. Of course don't get involved if there is a gun fight or people are running around with knives.


----------



## bstone (Aug 1, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> "1. an utterly foolish or senseless person.
> 
> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/idiot"
> 
> ...



I don't think it will be productive to debate if the word "idiot" is a bad word or not. Let's instead see what the forum moderators do when you refer to me or someone else as an idiot.


----------



## JPINFV (Aug 1, 2011)

EMT-MA said:


> You can say whatever you want! Your entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine! Stop or don't stop, I don't really care what you do or don't do!



Being entitled to an opinion does not mean being entitled to be free from discussion about said opinion, especially when said opinion is initially written to appear to be the standard for any specific state.


----------



## bstone (Aug 1, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> Being entitled to an opinion does not mean being entitled to be free from discussion about said opinion, especially when said opinion is initially written to appear to be the standard for any specific state.



Everyone is entitled to their own facts, no matter what.


----------



## Tigger (Aug 1, 2011)

bstone said:


> Yes.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiot
> 
> ...



A person who does not wear their seatbelt is acting in a self-defeating way. No person (hopefully) wishes to die in an MVA, a seatbelt is the easiest and most effective way to prevent death. Also, failing to wear your seatbelt is counterproductive to my survival in a crash, because said non-belted person is no longer a person but rather a large, unsecured object with pointy parts in close proximity to me.

I feel stupid for having stooped to the level of semantics.


----------



## JPINFV (Aug 1, 2011)

bstone said:


> I don't think it will be productive to debate if the word "idiot" is a bad word or not. Let's instead see what the forum moderators do when you refer to me or someone else as an idiot.




I get the feeling that calling people who fail to wear a seat belt in the back of an ambulance an idiot is not going to earn me any points.


----------



## bstone (Aug 1, 2011)

Tigger said:


> A person who does not wear their seatbelt is acting in a self-defeating way. No person (hopefully) wishes to die in an MVA, a seatbelt is the easiest and most effective way to prevent death. Also, failing to wear your seatbelt is counterproductive to my survival in a crash, because said non-belted person is no longer a person but rather a large, unsecured object with pointy parts in close proximity to me.
> 
> I feel stupid for having stooped to the level of semantics.



That sums it up pretty well.


----------



## JPINFV (Aug 1, 2011)

bstone said:


> Everyone is entitled to their own facts, no matter what.



No. Everyone is not entitled to their own *facts.* One does not get to simply make stuff up.


----------



## EMT-MA (Aug 1, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> Being entitled to an opinion does not mean being entitled to be free from discussion about said opinion, especially when said opinion is initially written to appear to be the standard for any specific state.



You appear to be a expert on every subject!


----------



## bstone (Aug 1, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> editing



LOL, dude I am joking!!!


----------



## bstone (Aug 1, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> No. Everyone is not entitled to their own *facts.* One does not get to simply make stuff up.



Reply:
http://www.emtlife.com/showpost.php?p=324739&postcount=190


----------



## JPINFV (Aug 1, 2011)

EMT-MA said:


> You appear to be a expert on every subject!




I'm special. I also don't get mad because someone disagrees with me, hence you will never see me end posts with platitudes like, "Just saying" or "just my opinion." I post my opinions, but I understand that expressing said opinions opens up those opinions to discussion and critique.


----------



## bstone (Aug 1, 2011)

EMT-MA said:


> You appear to be a expert on every subject!



That's ridiculous! JPINFV is not an expert on every topic, I AM!!!


----------



## EMT-MA (Aug 1, 2011)

bstone said:


> That's ridiculous! JPINFV is not an expert on every topic, I AM!!!



Nice!!:rofl:


----------



## bstone (Aug 1, 2011)

But on the topic of those who use less than ideal judgement, let me ask about this extremely sad and tragic case which happened just today:
http://www.boston.com/Boston/metrod...al-accident/Z26D6PKm7FALu2pqbrpg7K/index.html

Whenever I do oil changes I use both a jack and a jackstand. I know jacks fail or get knocked over and I never want to have a car fall on me. What say you all?


----------



## ClarkKent (Aug 1, 2011)

bstone said:


> That's ridiculous! JPINFV is not an expert on every topic, I AM!!!



From the facts you are pulling out of thin air, I would question that every heavily.  I can pull facts out of books but you are still stating that they are wrong??


----------



## MMiz (Aug 1, 2011)

Lets refrain from petty insults and name-calling.


----------



## Tigger (Aug 1, 2011)

bstone said:


> But on the topic of those who use less than ideal judgement, let me ask about this extremely sad and tragic case which happened just today:
> http://www.boston.com/Boston/metrod...al-accident/Z26D6PKm7FALu2pqbrpg7K/index.html
> 
> Whenever I do oil changes I use both a jack and a jackstand. I know jacks fail or get knocked over and I never want to have a car fall on me. What say you all?



I say wait for something more than a quick blurb from the Metro Desk before you make any judgements. None of us here have any idea if jack stands were being used. When more information is available, maybe then consider posting your judgement.

While I suspect you are unfortunately correct in your assumption, I fail to see how this adds anything to the discussion. I highly doubt he wished to have an SUV fall on him and am curious to what your point is. Incidentally, I feel that including this example is in rather poor taste, but oh well.


----------



## bstone (Aug 1, 2011)

Tigger said:


> I say wait for something more than a quick blurb from the Metro Desk before you make any judgements. None of us here have any idea if jack stands were being used. When more information is available, maybe then consider posting your judgement.


You may be correct in that he was using jackstands but they failed, or he was only using a jack which itself failed.



> While I suspect you are unfortunately correct in your assumption, I fail to see how this adds anything to the discussion.


Its highly relevant to the topic of people not using appropriate caution. 



> I highly doubt he wished to have an SUV fall on him and am curious to what your point is. Incidentally, I feel that including this example is in rather poor taste, but oh well.



I also highly doubt he wished to have an SUV fall on him. The point, however, is obvious. Does this fall into the category of not using appropriate caution? The taste issue, however, is meaningless. It's an extremely tragic even that just happened, which makes it incredibly sad.


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## JPINFV (Aug 1, 2011)

bstone said:


> I also highly doubt he wished to have an SUV fall on him. The point, however, is obvious. Does this fall into the category of not using appropriate caution? The taste issue, however, is meaningless. It's an extremely tragic even that just happened, which makes it incredibly sad.



Depending on how the accident went down, he may be an idiot for how he acted. I'm not going to go lightly just because someone is a fire fighter (and I'm completely for denying benefits to the drunk and coke head from BFD who died a few years ago in a fire because one had cocaine and the other had at least 2 times the legal limit of alcohol in his system at autopsy).

Similarly, I reject the notion that one cannot treat the vast majority of patients while being seatbelted in the back of the ambulance. It might be uncomfortable and take a few days to get used to, but that doesn't mean it's impossible, or really all that difficult.


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## ClarkKent (Aug 1, 2011)

Tigger said:


> I highly doubt he wished to have an SUV fall on him and am curious to what your point is. Incidentally, I feel that including this example is in rather poor taste, but oh well.



+1
How does correlate with the topic at hand??


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## bstone (Aug 1, 2011)

ClarkKent said:


> +1
> How does correlate with the topic at hand??



The 5+ pages about people failing to take appropriate caution, being labeled with a name I don't wish to even type.


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## JPINFV (Aug 1, 2011)

bstone said:


> The 5+ pages about people failing to take appropriate caution, being labeled with a name I don't wish to even type.




1. We don't know whether he did or not take appropriate caution when performing an oil change. 

2. "Idiot" isn't even one of the 7 words you can't say on TV (...and I agree, tits does sound like a snack  [/Carlin]).


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## bstone (Aug 1, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> 1. We don't know whether he did or not take appropriate caution when performing an oil change.
> 
> 2. "Idiot" isn't even one of the 7 words you can't say on TV (...and I agree, tits does sound like a snack  [/Carlin]).



1. I agree

2. That's nice.


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## ClarkKent (Aug 1, 2011)

bstone said:


> The 5+ pages about people failing to take appropriate caution, being labeled with a name I don't wish to even type.



Even if he used a 3 ton jack with two jack stands, they could have all failed.  If that was the case would he still be called this unsaid name you don't want to use?  So a layperson changing the oil on their own vehicle is this unsaid name??


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## bstone (Aug 1, 2011)

ClarkKent said:


> Even if he used a 3 ton jack with two jack stands, they could have all failed.  If that was the case would he still be called this unsaid name you don't want to use?  So a layperson changing the oil on their own vehicle is this unsaid name??



I appreciate your response. It is interesting to read.


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## ffemt8978 (Aug 1, 2011)

Back on topic, please.

Sent from my Android Tablet using Tapatalk


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## bstone (Aug 1, 2011)

I think we've discussed this to death. Goodnight, all! Thanks for the lively discussion.


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## ClarkKent (Aug 1, 2011)

bstone said:


> I appreciate your response. It is interesting to read.



I am glad you appreciate my response, but you are side stepping my question I asked to you!


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## firetender (Aug 1, 2011)

*Do ya think...*

..that if we actually HAD a Code of Ethics that included a commitment to not turn our backs we'd actually BE a profession as opposed to being a bunch of Tourists?

"Not turning our backs" is the key phrase. I hear so many excuses citing circumstances that would absolutely prevent taking any action whatsoever (most in the category of "What if?") I could vomit!

These kinds of arbitrary boundaries do not speak to the moment. Every situation has a uniques set of circumstances that, trained as a medic, wouldn't it make sense to at least LOOK at them? 

I hear many refusals to look under certain pre-defined circumstances . This is NEVER a reality in the moments you're presented with. You're trained to speak to the moment, are you not?

If you're not WILLING to speak to the moment why the hell are you (in general) in the biz?

The moment happens in uniform or out; it doesn't care about what you're wearing when it pounces on you. You've earned the GIFT of being able to do something, to make a difference in others' lives -- equipped or NOT -- and I don't care what you say, with that comes responsibility.

*



How about, "I'll do what I can under the best judgment I have based on the circumstances I find myself."

Click to expand...

*Now, please, argue over if that is a moral or ethical statement. and what page is it written or implied. I can't wait!


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## Tigger (Aug 1, 2011)

bstone said:


> Its highly relevant to the topic of people not using appropriate caution.



I was looking at the seatbelt discussion in a different way. I don't care if people don't wear their seatbelt if they are alone. They are idiots for not doing so, but I am much more concerned with say, my moron partner who does wear his. I (and my family) am going to be royally pissed if his unsecured fat *** injures me during a collision. 

I look at the case of jack stands to be different. If the car falls off the jackstands, the person injured is going to be the person underneath. Their negligence does not affect me nor anyone else physically, unless I too am under the car. And that is not happening without a secondary method of stabilization. 

To tie this back into the original discussion, stopping at an accident an unsafe way is closer to the non-seatbelted partner than jack stands. If I place my vehicle in such a way as to protect me, I very well  may have altered the flow of traffic and put many other drivers at risk (and yes I have seen some moron place his SUV in the lane of traffic with his dinky little dashlight on to "protect" and accident scene). Furthermore, if I were to be struck while stopping to assist in my POV, my lack of appropriate caution has now made situation worse for the original victim as the incoming unit now has two patients instead of just one.


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## dixie_flatline (Aug 1, 2011)

This thread has degenerated even further than the last time I poked my head in here, but I haven't seen this mentioned yet - someone a few pages ago asked something along the lines of "so am I not an EMT while off-duty?"  To which I would direct them a few pages earlier still - wherein we rehashed that *No, I'm not an EMT, legally-speaking, unless I am on-duty (acting under the authority of my medical director).  If I don't have the legal ability to act as an EMT while off-duty, how in FSM's name could anyone construct an argument wherein I'm still legally, ethically, or otherwise required to render aid?*

To me, that right there ends any argument about an over-arching code of ethics (and again, we never took any type of oath or pledge, or were tested on a code).  A doctor, on the other hand, _has_ taken an oath, and is licensed by the state to practice medicine. 

Do I have a personal code of ethics/morality that I tend to adhere to in everyday life?  Yes.  Would I stop at the scene of a bad accident if it seemed *safe*?  Probably if _no one else_ was there.  Do I expect everyone else to have the same reaction or set of ethics?  No.  So stop trying to project values on to others, yeah?  Brilliant.


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## JPINFV (Aug 1, 2011)

dixie_flatline said:


> A doctor, on the other hand, _has_ taken an oath, and is licensed by the state to practice medicine.



However even that is open to interpretation. After all, how does "first, do no harm" work with abortions or end of life issues, especially when dealing with removing life support?


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## dixie_flatline (Aug 1, 2011)

Just saw this on reddit. This is what I imagine happens every time I see a fender bender and consider stopping.







Thank god this happened in broad day light, or they probably wouldn't have had enough time to notice it was out of control.


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## Shishkabob (Aug 1, 2011)

dixie_flatline said:


> This is what I imagine happens every time I see a fender bender and consider stopping.






What, rain?  Man, who cares if you get a little wet when you can save a life at a fender bender!


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## exodus (Aug 1, 2011)

bstone said:


> It's the EMT moral code. If you don't wish to abide by it then you ought to stop being an EMT. BTW, it's the AAOS that wrote it. Shall I provide a page number for you?



Don't they say that you *may *have a moral obligation to stop but to take into consideration all of the risks that will be incurred by stopping? You don't have an ethical obligation to stop if you're off duty. (Or in an unmarked POV)

Edit: I also took no code or pledged to it. There is an example in aforementioned book, but you're not bound to it by reading it....


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## exodus (Aug 1, 2011)

ClarkKent said:


> I agree wit Sasha on this one.  The Good Samaritan Laws will only cover you so far.
> 
> The Good Samaritan Laws
> "designed to provide limited legal protection for *citizens*(which you are one off-duty) and some health care personal when they are administering emergency care.
> ...


Continuing on what you said from another book:

Nancy Caroline Emergency Care in the streets (c4p9)

"The laws of most states limit the legal protection provided: the emergency care must be given _free of charge_. An EMT / Medic providing emergency care while on duty."

"Most Good Samaritan laws also require that persons responding to an emergency do all that they can, within their knowledge, to support and sustain life and to prevent further injury."​


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## mycrofft (Aug 1, 2011)

*Adnauseum*

:deadhorse:


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## MrBrown (Aug 1, 2011)




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## ffemt8978 (Aug 1, 2011)

mycrofft said:


> :deadhorse:



Agreed...


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