# Safety first issue at shooting!



## enjoynz (Jun 9, 2008)

Hi All.

Thought I'd share this news article with you and get your thoughts on it, and whether you have been in a situation like this?

Article as follows:

Police are being accused of "not being human" after they waited 26 minutes before entering the liquor store where armed robbery victim Navtej Singh lay fatally wounded on the floor.

His wife, his business partner and a close friend were all there with him, but officers would still not go in despite 111 staff being assured the robbers had left.

Mr Singh died in Middlemore Hospital early yesterday from injuries suffered when he was shot in the chest with a .22 rifle during the raid on his liquor store in Riverton Drive, Manurewa, on Saturday night.

Click here for the rest of the article. It has the dispatch times for police and ambulance on the second page.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10515371

Cheers 
Enjoynz


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## BossyCow (Jun 9, 2008)

Been there! 

Police are called by a family member who thinks her ex husband is going to kill himself. Tells cops he was talking crazy and that he has multiple weapons in the house with him. Tells cops he has been drinking and threatened her, their kids and anyone who tried to stop him from killing himself.

Cops tried to determine if he was in the residence or not, if he was conscious, compliant, defiant, combative, or what. Got no response from him at all. They ordered one of those remote control surveilance cameras from a neighboring cop shop, but would not send personnel into the building until they knew it was safe. 

When they entered the residence, the occupant was passed out from the combination of multiple drugs and alcohol. He had apparently been down for some time. Until the cops determined the scene to be safe, they would not allow the medics access. When the medics finally got to the pt, he was severely hypoxic, and had been lying on one of his arms, resulting in its eventual amputation due to the impaired circulation. 

The family, grief stricken over the loss of their son, was accusing the police and the medics of negligence for listening to the 'unfounded allegations' of the ex-wife, instead of helping their boy. I live in a very small community, and had worked for many years with the boy's mother, knew him, his ex, kids, brothers, sisters in law, cousins, aunts uncles. I had some interesting conversations, since my husband was the medic responding to the incident. It never went to court, or even to the filing of charges, but there were a lot of hurt feelings over the 'lack of caring' by the cops and city medics.

People quit bringing the subject up to me when I asked one of them if they thought that my husband should have risked his life to save the life of their relative. I said that the kid put himself into that situation by taking the drugs, drinking the booze and then making threats. That made it his problem and his emergency. It took two more tries but eventually the guy did manage to kill himself.


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## mikeylikesit (Jun 9, 2008)

couldn't blame them half the time for not wanting to enter a residence without SWAT even then so SWAT usually doesn't enter right away unless it is for a warrant.( i hear)
if these were patrol officers then i wouldn't blame them for it.


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## Jon (Jun 10, 2008)

Just to clarify... from the article, it seems NZ's police operate similarly to the UK's police force... lots of unarmed officers and some armed "response teams". It seems the delay was on the arrival of an armed response team (Joy... if I'm wrong, let me know).

In the US... espicially with info from the 911 center that the subject(s) had fled the scene, it is likely that the first arriving PD officers would quickly 'clear' the building and either bring the patient out to EMS, or bring EMS to the patient.

Now, if it was believed that there was a subject inside intending to do harm to responders... well... everyone probably gets to wait for SWAT to clear the building.


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## enjoynz (Jun 10, 2008)

Jon said:


> Just to clarify... from the article, it seems NZ's police operate similarly to the UK's police force... lots of unarmed officers and some armed "response teams". It seems the delay was on the arrival of an armed response team (Joy... if I'm wrong, let me know).
> 
> In the US... espicially with info from the 911 center that the subject(s) had fled the scene, it is likely that the first arriving PD officers would quickly 'clear' the building and either bring the patient out to EMS, or bring EMS to the patient.
> 
> Now, if it was believed that there was a subject inside intending to do harm to responders... well... everyone probably gets to wait for SWAT to clear the building.



You are mostly right there Jon, our police are more like the English. 
They don't normally carry arms on their person. Also NZ police wear stab proof vest, not bullet proof ones. They would have been waiting for Armed police with the correct gear, who deal with armed incidents, to secure the scene. 
Which of course means the Ambulance crews have to stay at a Safe Point, until the scene is pronouced safe to enter.

Cheers Enjoynz


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## Ops Paramedic (Jun 10, 2008)

It is sad case were someone passed away due to someone following procedure in order to  prevent it.  Who is to blame, if someone is even to blame??  Unfortunitly in a situation like this, where is a increased risk of a  threat to the crew, we cannot simply take the word of the family member, and enter.  

Although the Police carry sidearms, we always keep an eye out, and proceed with caution, as they do not always perform their duties 100%, ie, surching the premesis and or suspects for weapons etc.

Just the other day a friend at another service went to a call, thinking nothing out of the ordinary upon arrival.  However when they entered, they were greeted by a man with a firearm, who held them hostage.  Luckely the person was thinking on his feet, and told the that they must return to the ambo and book in attendance.  He camly reported on the radio and called a code 999, and returned inside.  The cavelry arrived and the hostage taker was taken out...  Shows you, that this type of thing can happen anywhere, anytime, and that you should alway be very aware of your surroundings.


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## paramedix (Jun 11, 2008)

Your safety first, then your crew then your patient. I would also have waited outside or even further away if I was unsure.

Being a hero might just push the numbers of injured patients and not to say of endangering your partner. 

I understand what was mentioned regarding armed and non-armed forces. Over here all our police forces are armed (or suppose to be), but the question sometimes arise if they are willing to use force as the repercussions are even worse than the crime they trying to prevent.

SABC - Theres a reason for that S...


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## Chiron (Jun 11, 2008)

This man's death is an unfortunate occasion.

I am not sure of how the law is set up in New Zealand, but here in the US, specificly in the State of Ohio (where I work) the duty of the police are defined as follows.

The Police have the duty to preserve the peace, to protect life and property, and to enforce the laws of the State. (ORC 109.71) As such the police have the responsibility for halting violent crimminal acts. The law does not specify a minimum time frame inwhich this must be accomplished. Furthermore they are not required to provide emergency medical care (ORC 2305.23)

EMS crews are not required to render aid to victims if there is an unsafe scene or potential for ongoing violence (Zepeda v. City of Los Angeles, supra,233 Cal. App. 3d232).

So this creates a problem for those unfortunate souls that find themselves wounded where help cannot reach them.

Though the Police and EMS have no legal duty to act there is still certainly a moral duty to do so. I am friends with a bunch of the cops here in the city that I work for. Believe me they don't like letting poeple bleed out if they can prevent it. They are good folks, but all too often the deck is stacked against them. In you scenario they had to wait for firearms, here we are more likely to have to wait for SWAT. Either way innocent people are going to suffer.

The blame for this person's death must not be shifted to anyone but the person that shot him. I hope your police are able to find him. By the way were you on this call?


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## enjoynz (Jun 11, 2008)

Chiron said:


> The blame for this person's death must not be shifted to anyone but the person that shot him. I hope your police are able to find him. By the way were you on this call?



No, I was not part of this call, I crew in another region.
I just wanted to share the article, as I know this sort of thing affects
a lot of folk, especially in the States. 
Thankfully we don't have that many armed incidents in New Zealand.
Hence the reason most of our police are not armed.

Cheers Enjoynz


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## Chiron (Jun 11, 2008)

Enjoynz, thanks for sharing the info. Stay safe.


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## imsquishy (Jul 10, 2008)

Thanks for the info all, lots to think about.


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## mark111 (Jul 13, 2008)

Safety first no exceptions


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## BirdtheEMTB (Jul 17, 2008)

Is the Scene Safe? My partner and I are always going home at the end of the shift! Period!!:excl:


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