# Mayor Plans to Phase Out EMTs



## VentMedic (Dec 5, 2007)

*New Jersey Mayor Plans to Phase Out EMTs*

http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=6657

By ALEXANDER MacINNES
Herald News (Passaic County, NJ)

PATERSON - Despite talk to the contrary, 37 emergency medical technicians manning the city's ambulances will not be laid off but phased out gradually and replaced by firefighters, according to Mayor Jose "Joey" Torres.

Torres said firefighters are being trained as certified EMTs so that they can fill vacancies in the future in an effort to cut down on staffing redundancy and solve a recent problem of EMTs failing to report for work. It is unclear how much money will be saved.

http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=6657



> Emergency medical technicians work out of firehouses and respond to accidents and other medical emergencies. Unlike paramedics, who operate from the two city hospitals Barnert and St. Joseph's Regional Medical Center, EMTs are not authorized to conduct advanced-life support procedures, Brown said.
> 
> Starting salaries for both firefighters and technicians are similar, with firefighters receiving $25,064 after six months and EMTs earning almost $22,000, McLaughlin said.





> Larger cities in New Jersey often keep the ambulance and fire department operations separate, according to Howard Meyer, legislative director for the New Jersey State First Aid Council. Camden, Atlantic City and Newark do not dedicate firefighters to ambulance duties, Meyer said. The reason for the practice is that firefighters generally resist such a personnel move, he added.
> 
> "I have met very few firefighters," Meyer said, "that tell me that they've become firefighters to do EMS."



http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=6657


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## Arkymedic (Dec 5, 2007)

VentMedic said:


> *New Jersey Mayor Plans to Phase Out EMTs*
> 
> http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=6657
> 
> ...



Oh dear God the sh** will hit the fan in here now... *hides all the soap boxes rapidly*


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## rgnoon (Dec 5, 2007)

Damn, I wish I had seen that before the call I just ran with St. Joe's Medics. I would have like to hear their input.


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## Flight-LP (Dec 5, 2007)

~~Ducks behind cover~~~

Personally, I agree with the plan. If EMT's are not showing for work, get rid of 'em! While I do believe that most fire based services are not "up to par" (mostly because lazy firefighter don't want to do the job), it makes good business sense to have firefighters perform those duties. I am really tired of hearing hose monkeys whine because they actually have to work for their paycheck. Granted the salaries listed in the article are horrible, but in some places, firefighter make up to and over $100k per year. Mostly to sit around and wait. Utilize them to the fullest, get your money's worth.................


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## Ridryder911 (Dec 5, 2007)

I have several questions or at least I am confused of the situation. First, it appears they have the EMT's as civilian EMS service as a division of Fire, (of course lower pay, no benefits in comparison to F/F's). 

As well, why is there duplication of services? (Paramedics at hospital based EMS, Basic at city) Waste of money and resources. Why would a city want a basic service, and then a Paramedic service? Foolishness. Every truck should be ALS, and then have the FD respond in conjunction with the ALS EMS transport unit. 

I agree, if they were terrible employees then fire them. It does appear however; there is internal politics in regards to a heavy hand of FD involved. I do not understand the requirements of living within city limits, such requirements stopped >20 years ago. I am sure there is much that is not said. Like other cities that are trimming the budget, protection of the FD is going to be the first priority, even if they are not trained and prepared and even in this case, will not save any money. 

I do believe we should be responsible enough for our own profession. Foolish persons and idiots that are not responsible enough to have good work ethics and standards brings down our profession as well gives ammunition to place EMS into areas that it should not be. 

R/r 911


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## BossyCow (Dec 5, 2007)

As I read it, they have FF/EMT's and EMT's who are not Firefighters.  By going to all FF/EMT's they simply use the EMT they currently are paying to fight fires and eliminate the ones who just do the Aid calls.  

And where do Firefighters make $100K?  Hubby's been in it for 20+ years and not making anywhere near that and he's also a paramedic.  Perhaps he needs to find a higher paying department to retire from.


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## VentMedic (Dec 5, 2007)

BossyCow said:


> And where do Firefighters make $100K?



San Francisco FF are close to $75k and can easily hit $100k with OT.  

New York $40K to 85K
http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/community/ff_salary_benefits_080106.shtml

Miami starts at $37k - $50k.  This is average for the larger EMS and/or FD in central to south Florida, primarily along the coast.

Of course there is that little thing, "cost of living", that can be an issue in those areas.


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## Arkymedic (Dec 5, 2007)

BossyCow said:


> As I read it, they have FF/EMT's and EMT's who are not Firefighters.  By going to all FF/EMT's they simply use the EMT they currently are paying to fight fires and eliminate the ones who just do the Aid calls.
> 
> And where do Firefighters make $100K?  Hubby's been in it for 20+ years and not making anywhere near that and he's also a paramedic.  Perhaps he needs to find a higher paying department to retire from.



Memphis pays pretty damn good also and are requiring all FFs to be medic within 2 yrs of hire (BTW I AM NOT OPENING THE PARAMEDIC-FF DEBATE WITH THIS POST!)


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## Flight-LP (Dec 5, 2007)

Houston F.D. - $30k - $100k+ with OT...............


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## firecoins (Dec 5, 2007)

I don't know how much business sense it makes sending paramedics to every call.  Why don't they have hospital based BLS?  Or the lowest bidder private ambulance?  I am sure Lifestar or some other Northern Jersey private would love to pick it up.


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## rgnoon (Dec 5, 2007)

Ridryder911 said:


> As well, why is there duplication of services? (Paramedics at hospital based EMS, Basic at city) Waste of money and resources. Why would a city want a basic service, and then a Paramedic service? Foolishness. Every truck should be ALS, and then have the FD respond in conjunction with the ALS EMS transport unit.
> 
> R/r 911



Just FYI, The ALS spoken of is private and not city-funded and covers an area much greater than just the city of Patterson.


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## Ridryder911 (Dec 5, 2007)

It is amazing the difference in geography can make. 

Around here, the metro area >8,000 (lol) seriously, attempt to have at least one Paramedic per truck, sometimes it is a dual Paramedic unit. Why not have a Paramedic?  Business strategy it makes more sense. Why not? A Paramedic can transport a BLS call, as well as ALS. Why have dual units to do one job? There is little differential in costs between an ALS unit versus a BLS unit, especially when you are billing for services. 

Place the MFR on a rig, they can respond until ALS can assume care and transport. If only a B.S. call, they can cancel the ALS unit. It does not matter if they are private or city/government operated. The business can be operated the same. Very few of our communities have Fire Based EMS or even private types. 

R/r 911


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## rgnoon (Dec 5, 2007)

Ridryder911 said:


> Place the MFR on a rig, they can respond until ALS can assume care and transport. If only a B.S. call, they can cancel the ALS unit. It does not matter if they are private or city/government operated. The business can be operated the same. Very few of our communities have Fire Based EMS or even private types.
> 
> R/r 911



What you are describing is how this system works. BLS (volunteer in most of the state) responds to everything and only if ALS is required (as determined by dispatch or bls unit) will they respond. It has worked very well as you suggested it would. ALS units which are run from the hospitals bill for services when they are required, and aren't wasted on BLS calls. Each assumes a separate but related role in the system so as not to create that service duplication that you suggested.

Now the exceptions to this are Newark, Camden and Jersey City....but never mind them for the moment.

My reason for pointing out that the ALS is provided by the private hospitals was to clarify that "duplicate services" were not in fact being paid for by the city as you had suggested.

I realize that this issue has come up before here and I don't want to take up too much space on it, but I just felt like some of these points needed clarification in the context of the article, and hopefully I can aide in resolving your confusion.


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## Ridryder911 (Dec 5, 2007)

Thanks for the clarification. I find it ironic that so many areas are attempting duplication (multiple EMS) no matter if BLS or ALS. Many years ago, we stopped duplication of EMS in this state. One can only have one EMS in a designated area. Yes, this prohibits competition. The goal of each EMS is to promote to Paramedic level. I was serious though, most communities that are paid usually has at least one AEMT or Paramedic responding on a unit. We have very few volunteer EMS, however; have many Volly Fire Dept although many do not include EMS in their responses. 

I do find it interesting on how much difference in systems. 

R/r 911


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## firecoins (Dec 6, 2007)

rgnoon said:


> Now the exceptions to this are Newark, Camden and Jersey City....but never mind them for the moment.



alright, the moment is over.  I don't think many people would volunteer to get shot at.  The places where you don't get shot at don't have enough volunteers.


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## rgnoon (Dec 6, 2007)

Haha! Excellent point, although I have yet to be shot at myself, I have heard stories. I definitely wouldn't take my chances in Camden, but half of the stories that come out of newark are B.S. anyway. Notice I said half....the other half are pretty much right on. And frankly, I feel more comfortable in most parts of newark than I would in many places in Patterson. The key, like anywhere, is to know the places to avoid without informing your next of kin first.

As I know you know brian, UHEMS has a pretty good reputation around these parts, I wasn't trying to knock anyone for not volunteering. I can't even imagine volunteer EMS in newark or JC let alone camden.


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## BossyCow (Dec 6, 2007)

I remember visiting family in southern NJ and being detoured through Elizabeth.  I called my brother in law to let him know where we were and why we were going to be late and he said... Just remember, this is NJ, not WA if someone yells "Duck" it doesn't mean you should stand up and look for birds.


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## wolfwyndd (Dec 6, 2007)

BossyCow said:


> And where do Firefighters make $100K?  Hubby's been in it for 20+ years and not making anywhere near that and he's also a paramedic.  Perhaps he needs to find a higher paying department to retire from.


You'd probably have to move.  Granted this is third hand knowledge, but I have a friend of mine who's a police officer in DC and in one of his attempts at getting me to move back to the DC area he told me that if I upgraded my volunteer FF (36 hour) to FF - 1 (120 hour) and just keep my EMT-B certification I could START with the DCFD for about 60,000.  That's starting salary.  He also said he knows a couple of the line guys who make 100K a year before overtime.


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## rgnoon (Dec 6, 2007)

BossyCow said:


> I remember visiting family in southern NJ and being detoured through Elizabeth.  I called my brother in law to let him know where we were and why we were going to be late and he said... Just remember, this is NJ, not WA if someone yells "Duck" it doesn't mean you should stand up and look for birds.


  Oh we get such a terrible wrap here in this great state.


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## firecoins (Dec 6, 2007)

rgnoon said:


> Oh we get such a terrible wrap here in this great state.



the state of confusion?:huh:


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## rgnoon (Dec 6, 2007)

See you're up north of the border...i'm here in a state of helplessness. :wacko:


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## BossyCow (Dec 6, 2007)

rgnoon said:


> Oh we get such a terrible wrap here in this great state.



I'm sorry, did you miss the part where I said I'd been there??  Actually, the Pine Barrens are beautiful.


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## rgnoon (Dec 6, 2007)

BossyCow said:


> I'm sorry, did you miss the part where I said I'd been there??  Actually, the Pine Barrens are beautiful.



No, not at all....and yes they are.


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## wlamoreemtb (Dec 6, 2007)

haha its true in certain areas you have to be careful just like in everystate


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## NJN (Dec 6, 2007)

wlamoreemtb-

Just remember this "Welcome to Plainfield, Duck". I'm only a little upset that your squad has stopped giving mutual aid to the west side of my town. Then again, i understand where you guys are coming from. I hear what happen to you guys once you cross the border and respond. But hey, even i'm considering joining you squad when i become of age to join it. I know your fmr. captain who now i believe is 1st LT. 

To the rest of yall(yes, i'm from central NJ and use yall, want to make something of it?)

We get wonderful shots fired a couple times a week. But they can't hit the broad side of a barnh34r: 

On the topic, If we ran only ALS rigs instead of BLS with ALS intercept the pt.s who need ALS would rarely get it with the way our EMS system is abused. But wonderful County admin. (me thinks county and not state) wants to change the system to be one Medic and one Basic, which would screw everything up in my opinion. But, hey, i did not come into this business to be in politics.


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## wlamoreemtb (Dec 6, 2007)

haha hey were you on the call not to long ago a multiple shooting where mercy 6 and 7 were there and we transported? haha well anyways fanwood is kinda boring only bout 700 calls a year. ive been on a mutual aid to your town with another squad and almost got stabbed...and the fact that your town only has 1 rig in service at a time is a bit absurd considering the ammount of calls you get


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## NJN (Dec 6, 2007)

No, i wasnt. I only work wensdays 4-8 with a former member of your squad. Fanwood, honestly, EMTtraining fund, Light Permit, making College Apps. look better, Etc. Plus my mom grew up in Fanwood. 700, so i figure its not a huge commitment.


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