# Ground Zero Mosque



## Lifeguards For Life (Aug 17, 2010)

What are your thoughts on the mosque being built steps away from ground zero which has been dubbed 'the ground zero mosque'?


----------



## DaniGrrl (Aug 17, 2010)

I think it's much ado about nothing, or rather, the ado is pretty offensive. 

Americans are not any one religious faith, that's sort of an important fact about this nation. Not only are there many Muslims who are part of this society, but there were many who died on 9/11 or who were affected on that day. The mosque is no closer (more than 2 blocks away) than a bunch of things that people seem to be accepting - like Burger Kings and stands hawking garish souvenirs of the site - I hardly think a center that is made to build community and celebrate faith is a bad thing.


----------



## akflightmedic (Aug 17, 2010)

Lifeguards For Life said:


> What are your thoughts on the mosque being built steps away from ground zero which has been dubbed 'the ground zero mosque'?



Well, I find it interesting that you say "steps away" when you really have no clue how close it is to the actual site by your word choice. If you do have a clue and still use those words, then you are just as guilty as certain media outlets which have been promoting this fear monger mentality to promote certain political agendas.

The mosque is 2 blocks away from the WTC site. Certain people with media resources dubbed the site the ground zero mosque. The proposed mosque adheres to all building codes for that area, no special exemptions were made. It could be a Satanic Temple for all I care...as long as it adheres to the zoning and building requirements, who am I to say it can not be constructed?

Also, in this same "ground zero" area, there are other mosques, churches, strip bars, pubs and other businesses. Should any of these be allowed to operate in such a hallowed ground?

It is 2 blocks away...where do you draw the line? What area is allowable to build in and what area is not? See how ridiculous this is?

Build away...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upsho...pshot/news-outlets-split-in-describing-mosque


----------



## Lifeguards For Life (Aug 17, 2010)

2 blocks is steps away 

"Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time."-steven martin


----------



## JPINFV (Aug 17, 2010)

The only thing I dislike more than the mosque there is the government telling them they can't build it there. The mob can't overrule the constitution short of the amendment process (yes, let's see if we can amend the 1st amendment to include the phrase "except Muslims") or rebellion.


----------



## looker (Aug 17, 2010)

It's called religious freedom as such they can do anything they want.


----------



## JPINFV (Aug 17, 2010)

looker said:


> It's called religious freedom as such they can do anything they want.



Freedom from government interference and freedom from rebuke are two different things. They're free to construct it in accordance with local regulations, however they're also free to receive the public relations consequences of their actions.


----------



## Aidey (Aug 17, 2010)

There is a mosque 8-10 blocks away from the WTC. There is a mosque in the pentagon. There is a Shinto temple near Pearl Harbor. There are hundreds of Christian churches in Nagasaki and Hiroshima. There are Catholic churches near elementary schools. We don't blame the entire Christian faith for Scott Roeder* or Fred Phelps**.

So, in short. This isn't the only example of a religious institution being near the site of a tragedy. The constitution wins and I'm pretty sure the GOP just wanted a campaign issue since the plans for the thing were approved back in 12/09 without so much as a peep out of them. 


* Shot Dr. George Tiller in a church because Dr. Tiller performed abortions.
** Fred Phelps is that poor excuse for a human being that protests military funerals because he says god is mad at the US for allowing gay people to exist.


----------



## Sassafras (Aug 19, 2010)

It's their constitutional right to congregate, which indicates building.  It's not ON the property.  Secondly, the moment we blame all of Islam for 9/11 is the moment christians must take all responsibility for the Fred Phelps, Tim McVeys and the child molesting priests and pastors.  I've seen quite a few conservative christian friends get upset claiming their rights are being thwarted, when the reality is this can not be further from the truth.  My response is always "go ahead, push this issue, deny their constitutional rights to worship and congergate where they may, and when it becomes harder for YOUR faith to congregate and worship and people start coming down on christendom, don't come cryng to me, since you started this process to remove religious freedom from the constitution".

I find it neither constitutionally wrong, nor ethically wrong, but then again, I don't go around blaming entire faiths for everything wrong with the world.


----------



## 8jimi8 (Aug 19, 2010)

considering some of the hijackers were later proved to still be alive, i'm not sure who to blame.  I'm also thankful for this post, because i never looked close enough into the scuttlebutt to determine why a mosque would be going up AT ground zero.  Now at least i've got some perspective to know that it is completely media hype and unrelated to the tragedy that was used to send our armies into an aggressive war of conquest.


----------



## JPINFV (Aug 19, 2010)

I'm not one normally for the talking heads on cable news, but this commentary hit the nail on the head.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZpT2Muxoo0&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]


----------



## DaniGrrl (Aug 19, 2010)

Yeah, Olbermann isn't my favorite talking head (he's not my least favorite either LOL) but when he's right, he's really right.


----------



## Shishkabob (Aug 19, 2010)

The ones who b**** about people who are against the mosque/non-mosque are just as bad as those who b**** about it being built.


----------



## Sassafras (Aug 19, 2010)

I take it Linuss just doesn't have an opinion either way LOL.


----------



## Lifeguards For Life (Aug 20, 2010)

Sassafras said:


> I take it Linuss just doesn't have an opinion either way LOL.



I can understand it being insensitive at best, but don't feel that it should not be built...


----------



## lightsandsirens5 (Aug 20, 2010)

Lifeguards For Life said:


> I can understand it being insensitive at best, but don't feel that it should not be built...



There you go. Like someone said earlier, they have every right to build there, the only thing they have to answer to is public opinion. However wrong public opinion may be, it is still a reality. I say build away, and hopefully they can withstand public opinion. This is a free country in that the government cannot make relegious regulations. It is not a free country in terms of what your fellow Americans can say. They have just as much freedom of speech as whoever builds mosques has freedom to excercise their relegion. 

Simple in my mind. You are free to build whatever relegious institution (within reason. no human sacrifice and other nonsense.) that you want. You are not free to do so without the public's observation and opinion.


----------



## Aidey (Aug 20, 2010)

Linuss said:


> The ones who b**** about people who are against the mosque/non-mosque are just as bad as those who b**** about it being built.



I will admit to carping about it, but my issue has more to do with people lying and not knowing history than anything. I keep hearing its going to open on 9/11/11 or that its being built because Muslims always build at the site of their conquests....its absurd. If you are going to hate it fine, but at least hate it based on facts and not BS.

I agree that Olbermann's commentary was right on. He can be a little too liberal for my tastes, but he nailed this dead on.


----------



## JPINFV (Aug 20, 2010)

Blog with some interesting pictures of what else is on "Hallowed Ground."

http://daryllang.com/blog/4421

So right after the 'Muslim terrorists' get done praying and playing basketball, they can go to the near-by Burger King, strip club, bar, or off track betting facility. Oh, don't forget to pick up some tacky souvenir crud while you're at it. After all, what point is it being hallowed ground if you can't turn a dollar while you're at it.


Finally found a picture comparision of what the community center is and what the community center is not.


----------



## jjesusfreak01 (Aug 20, 2010)

Lmao


----------



## Aidey (Aug 20, 2010)

I saw that same blog yesterday. I was at work and I asked my partner "So are we going to cal everything "The Ground Zero _____, because I don't think people will like 'The Ground Zero strip club.'"


----------



## MSDeltaFlt (Aug 20, 2010)

My thoughts are this:  We, as a people, have a long way to go before anything like this would be done/built/what-have-you without a second thought.

We are not where we say we are, want to be, or even wish/dream to be.  We are still learning/growing/maturing.


----------



## medicRob (Aug 20, 2010)

Let's erect a statue in honor of Tim McVey in Oklahoma City while we are at it.

I think it is horrible.


----------



## akflightmedic (Aug 20, 2010)

medicRob said:


> Let's erect a statue in honor of Tim McVey in Oklahoma City while we are at it.
> 
> I think it is horrible.



And this non sequitur is relevant how? Oh wait, answered my own question. Not relevant to the discussion, no where near comparing apples to apples.


----------



## reaper (Aug 20, 2010)

medicRob said:


> Let's erect a statue in honor of Tim McVey in Oklahoma City while we are at it.
> 
> I think it is horrible.



Sorry, but you just pushed ignorance out there.


----------



## medicRob (Aug 20, 2010)

reaper said:


> Sorry, but you just pushed ignorance out there.



I don't think anything Islamic should be put anywhere near ground zero. This might be racist, but I honestly do not care.


----------



## medicRob (Aug 20, 2010)

I am just going to quit this thread right now, because the only things I have to say about this are pretty much racist and I don't want to offend anyone or bring that here to EMT life. Therefore, I am just going to leave this thread to you all.


----------



## akflightmedic (Aug 20, 2010)

medicRob said:


> I don't think anything Islamic should be put anywhere near ground zero. This might be racist, but I honestly do not care.



And the one question the people against it have not answered is how close is too close? Where is the line drawn for construction?

Also, several of the links and info provided have shown that there are already "Islamic things" in the area as well as titty bars, regular bars, lingerie shops, tacky souvenirs, adult bookstores, the list goes on and on...are these things too "close" to Ground Zero?


----------



## Lifeguards For Life (Aug 20, 2010)

medicRob said:


> I don't think anything Islamic should be put anywhere near ground zero. This might be racist, but I honestly do not care.



See this is where I am torn. I try to keep an open mind, but deep down I agree with medicRob, and want to give him kudos for voicing this against a crowd of apposing voices. 

I go back and forth on my feelings on the issue..... sometimes I see it as offensive to all the families of those that died on 9/11 and sometimes I see it as outrageous, though I still don't think we should be able to ban building it based on religion..


----------



## Lifeguards For Life (Aug 20, 2010)

akflightmedic said:


> And the one question the people against it have not answered is how close is too close? Where is the line drawn for construction?
> 
> Also, several of the links and info provided have shown that there are already "Islamic things" in the area as well as titty bars, regular bars, lingerie shops, tacky souvenirs, adult bookstores, the list goes on and on...are these things too "close" to Ground Zero?



I think titty bars, regular bars, even a satanic church is different than an islamic church.


----------



## JPINFV (Aug 20, 2010)

medicRob said:


> Let's erect a statue in honor of Tim McVey in Oklahoma City while we are at it.
> 
> I think it is horrible.



A mosque (which is in this case actually a community center with a prayer room) is no more a statue of honor for 9/11 than a church is a statue of honor for abortion clinic terrorism.


----------



## Lifeguards For Life (Aug 20, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> A mosque (which is in this case actually a community center with a prayer room) is no more a statue of honor for 9/11 than a church is a statue of honor for abortion clinic terrorism.



even TIME magazine is referring to the building as a mosque. I thought there were plans to build a mosque/ islamic culture center?

I also remember reading a proposition to build a multi culture center which was denied by Rauf.


----------



## akflightmedic (Aug 20, 2010)

Lifeguards For Life said:


> I think titty bars, regular bars, even a satanic church is different than an islamic church.



Of course, they are all different but do you think any of these are a tribute to 9/11 or disrespectful to 9/11? How close should they be allowed to such hallowed ground?


----------



## akflightmedic (Aug 20, 2010)

Lifeguards For Life said:


> even TIME magazine is referring to the building as a mosque. I thought there were plans to build a mosque/ islamic culture center?
> 
> I also remember reading a proposition to build a multi culture center which was denied by Rauf.



Of course they are...certainly helps sell magazines for sure! Got to run with the catchy titles as that is what sells!


----------



## reaper (Aug 20, 2010)

Blaming the entire Muslim religion for 9/11, is like blaming the entire Japanese population for Pearl Harbor. It is idiotic to think that way.

I see plenty of Catholic churches built by daycare centers. No one is screaming about that?


----------



## JPINFV (Aug 20, 2010)

Lifeguards For Life said:


> I think titty bars, regular bars, even a satanic church is different than an islamic church.



How?

I'll admit, I was originally in the, "I'm not really for it, but hey, 1st Amendment of the US Constitution is the trump card against trying to ban it." However, the more I thought about it, the more I realized that it's straight up bigotry than anything else. Muslims already pray in the Pentagon. There's a Shinto Shrine near Pearl Harbor. There's already a small Islamic prayer center 4 blocks away from Ground Zero (and also predates the opening of the WTC). However, no one has answered the "How close is too close?" question. Additionally, does it make any sense at all to have an ____ Exclusion Zone because other people with the same religion (hell, in the name of the same religion even) did terrible things. Are Christians justified in demanding that the Jews leave Jerusalem because of Christ and subsequent terrorism against early Christians? Do blacks in the Southern States get to demand no white churches because of the KKK? Where does this end?

"First they came for the socialists,
and I did not speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak for me."

You know what's interesting about that statement? It was written by a Lutheran priest who initially welcomed the rise of Hitler and the persecution of the Jews, only to later spend 7 years at concentration camps because he began to protest the Nazi policy of state supremacy over religion. God help us if our first step is to replace "socialist" with "Muslim" over blind fear and hatred of a group of people because a minority of them in other countries are terrorists. God help us all.


----------



## JPINFV (Aug 20, 2010)

Lifeguards For Life said:


> even TIME magazine is referring to the building as a mosque. I thought there were plans to build a mosque/ islamic culture center?
> 
> I also remember reading a proposition to build a multi culture center which was denied by Rauf.



Is the YMCA a church or devoted to exploring multiple religions?


----------



## Lifeguards For Life (Aug 20, 2010)

akflightmedic said:


> Of course, they are all different but do you think any of these are a tribute to 9/11 or disrespectful to 9/11? How close should they be allowed to such hallowed ground?



no, I don't feel that any of these buildings are disrespectful in the same manner as a mosque or an islamic trade center.

Is there any reason why they can not find a less controversial location for their mosque? Governor Paterson has offered state owned property to the developerts of park 51 if they were to agree to an alternate location.

Despite developers claims, I do not believe this building (in the current proposed location) will breed religious tolerance, but will be cause of further intolerance.


----------



## akflightmedic (Aug 20, 2010)

Lifeguards For Life said:


> no, I don't feel that any of these buildings are disrespectful in the same manner as a mosque or an islamic trade center.
> 
> Is there any reason why they can not find a less controversial location for their mosque? Governor Paterson has offered state owned property to the developerts of park 51 if they were to agree to an alternate location.
> 
> Despite developers claims, I do not believe this building (in the current proposed location) will breed religious tolerance, but will be cause of further intolerance.



Again, how close is too close? They are two blocks away. It will be a building which looks like all the other buildings. No big domes, no minarets...funny thing is, no one cared about this thing back in December when preliminary plans were approved. Come election time, seems it suddenly becomes a serious issue.


----------



## Lifeguards For Life (Aug 20, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Is the YMCA a church or devoted to exploring multiple religions?



Neither?


----------



## Lifeguards For Life (Aug 20, 2010)

akflightmedic said:


> Again, how close is too close? They are two blocks away. It will be a building which looks like all the other buildings. No big domes, no minarets...funny thing is, no one cared about this thing back in December when preliminary plans were approved. Come election time, seems it suddenly becomes a serious issue.



I have no idea. It is a sensitive issue and I have no solution for it.


----------



## Lifeguards For Life (Aug 20, 2010)

How tolerant do you think the developers of park 51 would be to the opening of a muslim gay bar next door to it? (I know next door and 2 blocks are hardly the same but...)


----------



## akflightmedic (Aug 20, 2010)

Lifeguards For Life said:


> I have no idea. It is a sensitive issue and I have no solution for it.



Me either, but when examined from the foundations this country was built upon and when referencing the Constitution, the answer is pretty clear. We can not pick and choose when to follow that document.

The proposed building conforms to all local zoning regulations and all proper channels have been followed. So if we say no, then what are we saying to the rest of the world? What are we saying to our youth, our children?


----------



## akflightmedic (Aug 20, 2010)

Lifeguards For Life said:


> How tolerant do you think the developers of park 51 would be to the opening of a muslim gay bar next door to it? (I know next door and 2 blocks are hardly the same but...)



Again, nice tangent but not relevant to the discussion.


----------



## JPINFV (Aug 20, 2010)

Lifeguards For Life said:


> Neither?



So how can the Young Men's *Christian *Association not be a church, but a Muslim community center with a prayer room is a mosque and should be about multiculturalism?


----------



## Lifeguards For Life (Aug 20, 2010)

akflightmedic said:


> Again, nice tangent but not relevant to the discussion.



From Greg Gutfield’s blog The Daily Gut August 9, 2010



> So, the Muslim investors championing the construction of the new mosque near Ground Zero claim it’s all about strengthening the relationship between the Muslim and non-Muslim world.
> 
> As an American, I believe they have every right to build the mosque – after all, if they buy the land and they follow the law – who can stop them?
> 
> ...



I thought it was an interesting question. I don't understand how the developers claim it will build rapport between the Muslim and non Muslim word when they know people are deeply offended by the idea.


----------



## Aidey (Aug 20, 2010)

The way it was explained to me is that this is not technically a Mosque, as a Mosque can only be used for prayer. By having the building be multi-use the religion doesn't consider it a true Mosque, but a prayer space. Kind of like how the Mormons have different rules for their churches vs their temples. 

I agree with the "how far is far enough?" comment, especially because you will never get a consensus. There are people in WI, TN and CA protesting Mosques, so apparently a couple thousand miles isn't enough for some people. 

There is also the fact that not all of the 9/11 families and survivors agree on what should happen with the Cultural center. Because of that it seems a little strange to me that people are outraged on their behalf. Recent polls also indicate that the building has more support in Manhattan than anywhere else in the US. 

I believe it is wrong to base political policy on what is offensive and what isn't. There are a number of things that offend me that wouldn't make very good laws. This means that my personal views are different than my political ones. In my personal opinion I think Fred Phelps and every member of the Westboro Baptist Church should be slow roasted over a mound of fire ants. Politically they have as much of a right to free speech as anyone else.

Edit: I'm sure there are plenty of odd neighbors in NYC and any other big cities. Heck, I'm pretty sure you could find a church and strip club on the same street in a number of places. Outside of what zoning laws allow, there isn't much people can do about their neighbors. However, I do have an issue with people intentionally being malicious towards their neighbors because they don't like them. Same goes for anything really. People are going to be incidentally offended by the actions of others all of the time. Being intentionally offensive though does not sit well with me, no matter who is being offended and who is being offensive. 

Christians burning Qur'ans, Atheists going into a church and "preaching", People parading pigs across the lawn of a Synagogue...etc.


Edit again: As for the location, the building had been vacant since 2001, and the seller had dropped the price from $18 million to $4.8 million, I think cost played a big part in what building they bought.


----------



## Sassafras (Aug 20, 2010)

I want to know where the outrage was over building churches in Waco since David Koresh, or churches near the Oklahoma City bombing site.  These men did their terror in the name of the Christian god, how dare people spit on the memory of the innocent lives there by building places of worship to the christian god. 

It goes both ways and if we are going to blame all of Islam for what this handful of men did, then each member of each faith must be willing to accept responsibility for the evils committed in the name of their deity.  I'm pretty sure Christians are not going to stand up and accept responsibility for the crusades, or will readily jump up and shout "David Koresh was not a REAL christian".  

It's xenophobic at its best, predjudism and biggotry at its worst. Thankfully our constitution is as it is, and no one can interfere with that.


----------

