# Kelley Grayson on EMS Forum Behavior



## medicdan (Jul 13, 2010)

In light of other discussions going on now, it seems only fitting to share AD's column on EMS1 on EMS'ers comments on the web-- on youtube and fora (forums). Interesting read. Comments?
http://www.ems1.com/columnists/kelly-grayson/articles/846555-Think-before-you-post/


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## Lifeguards For Life (Jul 13, 2010)

> Judging EMTs who supposedly can't tell if a patient is dead or not is especially easy over an Internet connection. I personally witnessed a patient regain a pulse and breathing a full ten minutes after the code was called, and that's after a doctor, and nurse and a paramedic (me) ran a 10-second asystole strip in three leads, checked pulses, and even checked heart sounds with a Doppler.



Has anyone else heard of anything like this?


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## medicdan (Jul 13, 2010)

Lifeguards For Life said:


> Has anyone else heard of anything like this?



Pediatric Hypothermia?


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## medic417 (Jul 13, 2010)

Seems his article is right on as the flaming of his statements confirms.


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## JPINFV (Jul 13, 2010)

I'm surprised that no one has thrown around the concept of "brotherhood" over there. The only time I've ever seen anyone try to invoke "brotherhood" was when they've put themselves up ____ creek on their own accord and are too afraid to pay the piper for their own stupidity.


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## Veneficus (Jul 13, 2010)

it's kind of hard to argue that medics are educated professionals that cannot take responsibility for their own decisions.


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## JPINFV (Jul 13, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> it's kind of hard to argue that medics are educated professionals that cannot take responsibility for their own decisions.



But but but the snow storm is too dangerous for me to go to the patient, but perfectly safe for the patient to walk to us! How can you not understand that I can't provide care if the bottom of my pants are wet from the snow!

Also, far be it for an EMS provider to actually think ahead that posting on the street corner just immediately down the street from a shooting is a terrible idea. They didn't cover the specifics of posting location in EMT school.


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## Veneficus (Jul 13, 2010)

There is a lot not covered in EMT school.

"common sense is an uncommon virtue."

I just love to hear about all the "life or death" decisions and responsibility EMS has but cannot even be trusted or in this case responsible (read capable) of calling for help or walking through the snow.

Having spent several years in the mountains and plains of Central Europe, growing up in NE Ohio (one of only a handful of places in the world to suffer lake effect snow) and traveling to Pittsburg many times, I am not impressed by the "worst snow storm in 50 years" excuse, it is pathetic.


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## medic417 (Jul 13, 2010)

Man Kelley was extremely right you people are judgemental.


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## Veneficus (Jul 13, 2010)

medic417 said:


> Man Kelley was extremely right you people are judgemental.



Do I detect a hint of sarcasm?


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## JPINFV (Jul 13, 2010)

Yes. I evaluate the information I have on a situation based on my education, morals, and experience and come to a judgment on the situation. A judgment that often I discuss online. I fail to see the problem with that.


Or did I just fall into the trap?


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## AnthonyM83 (Jul 17, 2010)

Lifeguards For Life said:


> Has anyone else heard of anything like this?


Absolutely. It hasn't happened to me, but it has happened to an experienced, knowledgeable, responsible, and thorough paramedic I know. He absolutely 100% followed procedure, determined patient dead, and 20 minutes later he had a pulse and posturing. Many witnesses validated the thoroughness. It happens.

And I agree with the author of the article, that newpaper articles do not accurately reflect EXPERIENCING the situation as if one was there.


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## AnthonyM83 (Jul 17, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Yes. I evaluate the information I have on a situation based on my education, morals, and experience and come to a judgment on the situation. A judgment that often I discuss online. I fail to see the problem with that.
> 
> 
> Or did I just fall into the trap?



JP, the problem is lack of access to accurate and complete information in order to make the judgment.


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## JPINFV (Jul 17, 2010)

We never have all of the information of anything, therefore should we never discuss any ethical issues or patient care issues? I don't need all of the information to condemn anyone who knowingly passed off CME courses that they never attended.


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## AnthonyM83 (Jul 17, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> We never have all of the information of anything, therefore should we never discuss any ethical issues or patient care issues? I don't need all of the information to condemn anyone who knowingly passed off CME courses that they never attended.



The solution is to make comments about the situation in general or put qualifiers such as "if blank was the case, then the medics are blank". Otherwise, no, you really shouldn't condemn others based on incomplete facts.

I only say this because I've made the mistake before. I've also seen what was written in the newspapers compared to later finding out how the situation actually went down. And WOW, it almost always ends up making sense once I see the other side of it.

Just today I was watching a VIDEO (aka with my own eyes) of a cop slam an 87 year old lady for apparently no reason onto concrete. Seemed so violent and out of nowhere. Excessive force. THEN I learned the 87 year old had pulled a knife on the cop. Suddenly, situation changes. Being slammed to the ground doesn't seem like that big of a consequence for creating a life/death situation on another human being. It's all about perspective.


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## medic417 (Jul 17, 2010)

I believe most presume the qualifiers that you mention Anthony.  I am with JP many of these news reports lead to some of the best discussions.  Yes we, I speak I think for most, understand that we do not have all facts and our discussions are based on the what if this report is right.


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## mcdonl (Jul 17, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> We never have all of the information of anything, therefore should we never discuss any ethical issues or patient care issues? I don't need all of the information to condemn anyone who knowingly passed off CME courses that they never attended.



People just need to realize that the internet is not a great place to be if you have thin skin. If I have an issue regarding one of my patients, or a patient of one of my REAL peers I take it up with my service chief.

If I just want random opinions from people who I could not care less about I go to the internet.


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## mycrofft (Jul 17, 2010)

*Thin skins.. hear that a lot. (Not a personal reply, but an observation)*

It is a pragmatic observation, an admission of surrender, and a bully's mantra, all in one.
1. Yeah, if you are afraid of being dissed, consider writing letters to the editor. But you don't have to take it lying down; or, just don't go to that website. If you get abusive emails, tell your internet provider and/or block their mail.
2. Don't let jerks take over your favorite web site. Complain to the webmasters. DON'T joust with the jerks, that's what they go there for. Think of a website like a neighborhood pub or mom and pop restaurant; if bully's hang out there, business suffers, unless they want to cater to a rough crowd. If you don't like the ambience, don't go there. Complain civily to them if someone's being a jerk. And, to continue the metaphor, no one has the RIGHT to post and comment on a private website, it is private property paid for by the holder. They can always take their trash talk down the line.
3. The first thing bullies want is your silence and compliance. "You need thick skin" can be a warning, or it can be a derisive game.

I keep participating because we have good webmeisters and many good participants.


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## AnthonyM83 (Jul 17, 2010)

medic417 said:


> I believe most presume the qualifiers that you mention Anthony.  I am with JP many of these news reports lead to some of the best discussions.  Yes we, I speak I think for most, understand that we do not have all facts and our discussions are based on the what if this report is right.



When I read the comments on different articles, it often makes me wonder if people are really suspending judgment in their heads. There's some powerful replies people write slamming the people in the articles. Like personal statements about them. And yeah, it's the internet, so ultimately who cares. BUT it's more about the person writing them (not the target)....does the writer really realize that he's going off on his peer because of what some newswriter published.

MyCroft, very good point.


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## rescue99 (Jul 17, 2010)

emt.dan said:


> In light of other discussions going on now, it seems only fitting to share AD's column on EMS1 on EMS'ers comments on the web-- on youtube and fora (forums). Interesting read. Comments?
> http://www.ems1.com/columnists/kelly-grayson/articles/846555-Think-before-you-post/



One man's opinion..that's all this amounts to be. He's stating his thoughts, beliefs and ideals about what interests him, in the way it interests him. Unless readers have all of the facts he/she can only form thier own (ideals/opinions) based on what information is made available. In otherwords; this man has done exactly what he's preaching against...IMHO.


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## DrParasite (Jul 17, 2010)

Great article!!!! People on here (as well as other EMS boards, Fire boards, and every other board you can think of) make uneducated opinions based on limited information aka arm chair quarter backing.  The Curtis Mitchel incident was an EXCELLENT example of this, and it happened on this forum too.

we can all comment on a news article, which we know is _always 100% accurate and always includes all the information to make an informed decision._  But when we make judgements on people, without every actually being in their situations, in their response area, working in their agency, we don't know what their situations were, that is when ignorance shows, and that is exactly what the author is talking about.

but opinions are like :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored:s, everyone has one, and some of them stink


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## JPINFV (Jul 17, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> The Curtis Mitchel incident was an EXCELLENT example of this, and it happened on this forum too.



You mean assuming that if it's too dangerous for the crew to walk to the patient, then it's too dangerous for the patient to leave safety and walk to the crew? Yea, I'll stand by that judgment. That third crew can't have it both ways. Either it's too dangerous to walk, or it isn't.


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## AnthonyM83 (Jul 18, 2010)

rescue99 said:


> One man's opinion..that's all this amounts to be. He's stating his thoughts, beliefs and ideals about what interests him, in the way it interests him. Unless readers have all of the facts he/she can only form thier own (ideals/opinions) based on what information is made available. In otherwords; this man has done exactly what he's preaching against...IMHO.



I think that was the point, to provide a counter opinion just to show that the ones we have aren't the only ones and some MAY be more right...


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