# General Biology, or Fundamentals of Microbiology?



## JJR512 (Sep 28, 2010)

I'm looking at the local community college's EMT-P program, and for the core program, the student must take either General Biology 1 or Fundamentals of Microbiology. (This is done before getting to A&P-1, of course.)



> BIOL-101 General Biology I
> 4 Credits (Science Core)
> Following successful completion of Biology 101, the student will be able to describe the characteristics of living things at all levels of organization-from the atomic through the molecular, cellular, and organismal levels. The study of human genetics, development, and anatomy and physiology will enable the student to relate the chemical activities of the cell to the overall function of man.





> BIOL-107 Fundamentals of Microbiology
> 4 Credits (Science Core)
> Fundamentals of Microbiology is a course designed with a strong emphasis towards the allied health careers. Following the successful completion of Biology 107, the student will be able to describe the characteristics of living things from the molecular to the cellular level for both prokaryotic and eukaryotic cells. The study of microbiology will enable the student to understand the biology of bacteria, fungi, protozoa and viruses in terms of morphology, classification, reproduction, metabolism, genetics, population growth, and disease production. In the laboratory, the student will gain experience with the tools and techniques used in the study of microorganisms.



BIOL-107 says it is "designed with a strong emphasis towards the allied health careers," but BIOL-101 says the student will be able "to relate the chemical activities of the cell to the overall function of man," which also sounds pretty important.

So my question is: If someone is interested in pursuing the EMT-P program at this college, which of these two classes would be the better one to take?

http://www.howardcc.edu/academics/program_information/catalog/web/courses/biology.html


----------



## aewin90 (Sep 28, 2010)

Microbiology is not something that you need to know for EMS as far as I know.  In CNA class we spent a decent amount of time on the basics of microbiology because infection control was a major responsibility for the CNA; not so much for EMT's and Paramedics.

General Biology is what you want.  However, if you are more interested in microbiology you will probably receive higher grades in that course as compared to General Biology...

(Someone feel free to correct me if I'm misguided.)


----------



## JPINFV (Sep 28, 2010)

aewin90 said:


> In CNA class we spent a decent amount of time on the basics of microbiology because infection control was a major responsibility for the CNA; not so much for EMT's and Paramedics.



How, exactly, would you figure that one? Are infected patients not allowed on ambulances where you live?


----------



## Veneficus (Sep 28, 2010)

General biology with lab an taxonomy.


----------



## Lifeguards For Life (Sep 28, 2010)

I second the 'general biology' vote.


----------



## JJR512 (Sep 28, 2010)

So that's three for General Biology, and none for the other.



Veneficus said:


> General biology with lab an taxonomy.


Are you saying "general biology" because it includes lab and taxonomy, or are you telling me to make sure I get that some other way?


----------



## medic417 (Sep 28, 2010)

I vote both. But if going to slack off and only do one take biology.


----------



## Veneficus (Sep 28, 2010)

JJR512 said:


> So that's three for General Biology, and none for the other.
> 
> 
> Are you saying "general biology" because it includes lab and taxonomy, or are you telling me to make sure I get that some other way?



make sure your general biology course includes taxonomy and a lab. (to get the maximum experience out of it. Taxonomy does have considerable medical application)

Microbiology will discuss some concepts of general biology, but not in any depth.

You do not construct a building starting with the second floor. You lay the foundation first.


----------



## TransportJockey (Sep 28, 2010)

Any chance you can take both? That's really what I would do
EDIT: To CAO~ Some of the micro courses I've seen it's a co/pre req. That's why I'd try to do both.


----------



## CAOX3 (Sep 28, 2010)

Isn't biology a pre req to sit for micro any more?

I agree take both if you can.


----------



## JJR512 (Sep 28, 2010)

I don't see why it wouldn't be theoretically possible to take both courses, assuming I have the ability to pay for a superfluous course (superfluous in terms of being needed to complete the EMT-P program).

And I'm certainly not opposed to more education, especially if its relevant to the desired goal.

That being said, would you advise taking both at the same time, or could that be too confusing? They are both 4-credit courses, and I'd probably take the required math course (MATH-105, Drug Calculations) in the same semester, so I'd also need to make sure I'd have the time to devote to a full course load as well.


----------



## abckidsmom (Sep 28, 2010)

JJR512 said:


> I don't see why it wouldn't be theoretically possible to take both courses, assuming I have the ability to pay for a superfluous course (superfluous in terms of being needed to complete the EMT-P program).
> 
> And I'm certainly not opposed to more education, especially if its relevant to the desired goal.
> 
> That being said, would you advise taking both at the same time, or could that be too confusing? They are both 4-credit courses, and I'd probably take the required math course (MATH-105, Drug Calculations) in the same semester, so I'd also need to make sure I'd have the time to devote to a full course load as well.



If you don't already have a background in biology, that would be an extremely difficult load.  4-credit courses, both with labs, both with exams...I would get pretty tired of it all, and my grades would slip.  But that's me.

I love biology, and took AP Bios in high school, so in college I took microbiology without a second thought.  I do remember and use that information, but I think that overall, if you don't already have a strong foundation in biology, your career as a health care provider will suffer if you skip that step.


----------



## CAOX3 (Sep 28, 2010)

I wouldnt suggest taking both at the same time, how heavy is the course load?

Taken it with some electives like intro to computers or figure drawing, naked h34r:

I found it easier to bury a science class in the middle of some fluff courses, worked out better for me.


----------



## akflightmedic (Sep 29, 2010)

I am with whoever mentioned it earlier...have you asked the counselor???

I had to take Biology as a pre req prior to AnP and Microbiology....


----------



## JJR512 (Sep 29, 2010)

CAOX3 said:


> I wouldnt suggest taking both at the same time, how heavy is the course load?
> 
> Taken it with some electives like intro to computers or figure drawing, naked h34r:
> 
> I found it easier to bury a science class in the middle of some fluff courses, worked out better for me.


Well, as I mentioned in my previous post, the only other course I was planning on taking in the same semester was the math class (Drug Calculations).



akflightmedic said:


> I am with whoever mentioned it earlier...have you asked the counselor???
> 
> I had to take Biology as a pre req prior to AnP and Microbiology....



I've talked to the counselors before (not about this exact question, though) and they didn't seem to know jack beyond what was printed in the catalog.

It's already going to take three semesters to get to the paramedic core courses: the first semester for whichever of these two is selected, the next for A&P-1, and the third for A&P-2. The only other prereq for the certificate program* is the math course I just mentioned. I'm all for getting as much education and possible, but I don't want to delay completing the paramedic program by a semester just so I can take _both_ options of an either/or prereq.

* I do have a degree plan, but for personal reasons I'm going to do the general education portion _after_ the actual paramedic portion. I _might_ do the paramedic certificate program, then the gen-ed courses to get the AAS, then do a paramedic-to-RN bridge program...not sure. My point is I'm not planning on just stopping at the paramedic cert program. If I have the time and money, then I might do a gen-ed course in the same semester as an A&P course, but for both time and money reasons, I probably won't be able to do more than two courses per semester.


----------



## aewin90 (Sep 29, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> How, exactly, would you figure that one? Are infected patients not allowed on ambulances where you live?



No.  

From my experience working in two different health care facilities and interacting and assisting with ambulance crews, clinical infection control and pre-hospital infection control appear to be two entirely different ballgames.  

In a pre-hospital environment one is generally in contact with the patient for a short amount of time.  In addition, paramedics do not have a formal diagnosis to work with.  A formal diagnosis carries with it all shapes and sizes of precautions-- PPE, airborne precautions, contact precautions, reverse precautions, the use of negative pressure rooms, the list could go on.  

I'm all for improving the art of pre-hospital infection control, but so much of it revolves around a formal diagnosis via lab work and other tools that ambulances simply do not carry.


----------



## abckidsmom (Sep 29, 2010)

aewin90 said:


> No.
> 
> From my experience working in two different health care facilities and interacting and assisting with ambulance crews, clinical infection control and pre-hospital infection control appear to be two entirely different ballgames.
> 
> ...



Paramedics may not have the formal diagnosis to work with, but the understanding of infectious diseases that comes with microbiology can help anyone.  Paramedics who are able to recognize and incorporate the patient's presentation and make infection control decisions based on that presentation and the education that they've recieved are doing as much to control infection spread as anyone who follows a contact/droplet sign on a patient's door.

Understanding how the size of microbes affects the PPE you use, which cleaners will kill the microbes in question, and how drug-resistant microbes affect your practice are useful to and healthcare provider.


----------



## JPINFV (Sep 29, 2010)

aewin90 said:


> In a pre-hospital environment one is generally in contact with the patient for a short amount of time.  In addition, paramedics do not have a formal diagnosis to work with.  A formal diagnosis carries with it all shapes and sizes of precautions-- PPE, airborne precautions, contact precautions, reverse precautions, the use of negative pressure rooms, the list could go on.
> 
> I'm all for improving the art of pre-hospital infection control, but so much of it revolves around a formal diagnosis via lab work and other tools that ambulances simply do not carry.



I'm going to disagree and say that out of the PPE/intervention options, the only thing that can't occur (and I know it isn't all inclusive) is negative pressure. However ambulances routinely transport patients with diagnoses (not all calls are coming from non-health care facilities), and even still the ability to identify sick patients and take precautions is important, even if it's more of an all/nothing than location specific (i.e. gloves/gown/maks instead of picking and choosing). 

If the only important thing is infection control, then I could argue that the only people who need microbiology are those diagnosis and prescribing antibiotics. You don't need a background in micro if all you are doing is following what the sign on the door says to do.


----------



## bstone (Sep 29, 2010)

Gen Bio. It's a pre-req for micro.


----------



## JJR512 (Sep 29, 2010)

bstone said:


> Gen Bio. It's a pre-req for micro.



It's a prereq for Microbiology, as you say, but Microbiology is not a course being discussed in this thread. Besides General Biology, the other course being discussed is _Fundamentals of_ Microbiology.

The straight-up Microbiology course is not a required or even suggested part of the Paramedic program at this particular school.

That being said, since the overall consensus seems to be General Biology, that's the one I think I'll go with.


----------



## JPINFV (Sep 29, 2010)

bstone said:


> Gen Bio. It's a pre-req for micro.



...but at my undergrad, microbiology was an upper division course with lab, and thus the pre-reqs included general chem, organic chem, biochemistry, genetics, molecular bio, and intro bio lab in addition to the 2 general bio courses. So the prereqs are going to vary depending on the institution the the purpose of the lab.


----------



## aewin90 (Sep 29, 2010)

abckidsmom said:


> Paramedics may not have the formal diagnosis to work with, but the understanding of infectious diseases that comes with microbiology can help anyone.
> 
> **snip**
> 
> Understanding how the size of microbes affects the PPE you use, which cleaners will kill the microbes in question, and how drug-resistant microbes affect your practice are useful to and healthcare provider.


I definitely see what you are saying here.  But, is it worth an entire semester of Microbiology, especially when faced with an alternative such as General Biology?

As a CNA I occasionally found myself walking into Negative Pressure rooms with more gear than someone about to perform an EVA from the Space Shuttle, yet I never received more than a basic crash course in pathogens, portals of entry/exit, types of precautions, and various pieces of PPE.  It was adequate considering we mostly followed the signs on the door and prayed the Rosary before entering a C-Diff room.

A similar "crash course" would be, I would think, sufficient in a field where patient contact is generally minimal in terms of time.



JPINFV said:


> I'm going to disagree and say that out of the PPE/intervention options, the only thing that can't occur (and I know it isn't all inclusive) is negative pressure.


You're ambulances aren't fancy enough.  



JPINFV said:


> However ambulances routinely transport patients with diagnoses (not all calls are coming from non-health care facilities), and even still the ability to identify sick patients and take precautions is important, even if it's more of an all/nothing than location specific (i.e. gloves/gown/maks instead of picking and choosing).


Oops, didn't even consider the IFT side of EMS.  You have quite a point there.  :blush:



JPINFV said:


> If the only important thing is infection control, then I could argue that the only people who need microbiology are those diagnosis and prescribing antibiotics. You don't need a background in micro if all you are doing is following what the sign on the door says to do.


You have a point there as well.  The question is, within the context of pursuing a career in prehospital emergency care, would General Bio or Microbiology be preferable?  I believe a case can be made for General Bio, at least until EMS matures beyond the Technician era.

Of course I have little formal experience in EMS, so feel free to take what I say with a grain of salt.  Or a gallon.


----------



## JPINFV (Sep 29, 2010)

I will agree (I haven't stated this yet) that general bio is better as a first course since it should cover the basics of several different fields whereas microbiology only covers specifics of micro, much of which isn't immediately applicable to EMS. However, I do feel the need to counter false arguments, even if I agree with the overall premise.


----------



## JJR512 (Oct 16, 2010)

Well, I've come across some new information that may change what I decide to take.

In the last few days, I've learned two things. The first is that there is a paramedic course taught at the county fire dept. training academy. This course essentially duplicates the one offered at the county community college; in fact, it is taught on the same dates and times. However, this course does not have any prerequisites at all (other than EMT-B). No A&P I & II, no General Biology or Fundamentals of Microbiology. According to my EMT instructor, the prerequisites are not necessary because the relevant knowledge from those classes is actually included in the paramedic core classes at the appropriate times. The community college—again, remember that it's the same set of core paramedic classes—has the prerequisites because apparently it transfers better that way. And that's the disadvantage of the training center's program: no college credits for taking it.

On the other hand, I've also been looking at the nursing program at the community college. (My goal is paramedic first, maybe nursing after.) The nursing program has the Fundamentals of Microbiology as a mandatory class as part of the nursing program, in addition, of course, to the A&P I & II. So although A&P I still has the option between that and General Biology, the fact that Fundamentals of Microbiology is part of the nursing program effectively removes that choice for the nursing student.

If I decide to do the program at the community college, I now think I'll take Fundamentals of Microbiology. Given the fact that the paramedic core courses are going to cover the relevant biology topics in those courses directly, it seems safe to pick it over General Biology. This way, if I decide to do nursing later, I'll already have Fundamentals of Microbiology done with.


----------



## RunnerD1987 (Oct 21, 2010)

This thread is in relation to a topic was going to post and did not want to clutter. I do not mean to jump on this thread, but in regards to classes and training for paramedic. I am looking to take a bridge EMT-B course this spring hopefully and wanted to take a paramedic class in the winter next year, but may hold off to the following fall. I already have a degree though unsure what to do with and that is why I started becoming involved with EMS. Long story short looking to take a few college courses in science and math.  I already have bio under my belt. With the EMT B course being taken in the spring after getting my feet wet was thinking of going forth with an AEMT program. That would only allow me to take three courses at the local community college. Was thinking of taking a math class just to keep practice on that area. Leaving only two classes left with a lot of choices, which are Microbiology, A&P I, A&P II, A&P for EMS, General Chemistry I and II.

Any tips on what classes to check out? Appreciate the response.


----------



## bstone (Oct 21, 2010)

Do College Algebra and A&P. Being able to add and knowing how the body works will help you a lot in AEMT and medic school.


----------



## TransportJockey (Oct 21, 2010)

WCSU1987 said:


> This thread is in relation to a topic was going to post and did not want to clutter. I do not mean to jump on this thread, but in regards to classes and training for paramedic. I am looking to take a bridge EMT-B course this spring hopefully and wanted to take a paramedic class in the winter next year, but may hold off to the following fall. I already have a degree though unsure what to do with and that is why I started becoming involved with EMS. Long story short looking to take a few college courses in science and math.  I already have bio under my belt. With the EMT B course being taken in the spring after getting my feet wet was thinking of going forth with an AEMT program. That would only allow me to take three courses at the local community college. Was thinking of taking a math class just to keep practice on that area. Leaving only two classes left with a lot of choices, which are Microbiology, A&P I, A&P II, A&P for EMS, General Chemistry I and II.
> 
> Any tips on what classes to check out? Appreciate the response.



Skip A&P for EMS and take the real A&P courses w/ labs


----------

