# Unexpected EMT Visit Prompts Wilkinsburg Man To Fire Gun



## Foxbat (May 27, 2011)

PITTSBURGH -- Authorities say an elderly man pointed a gun at an ambulance crew then fired a shot into the ceiling after the medics entered the wrong apartment while responding to a call in Wilkinsburg.


The complete story

Wilkinsburg isn't exactly the safest area so I could see how it would happen. 
Apparently building manager led the medics to the wrong apartment.
Still, didn't the trigger-happy guy notice the EMS uniforms?


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## JPINFV (May 27, 2011)

Foxbat said:


> Still, didn't the trigger-happy guy notice the EMS uniforms?


If you're in the middle of a home invasion (which, for all intents and purposes this was), are you going to check for uniforms? What if the uniforms are stolen or fake?


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## HotelCo (May 27, 2011)

This is why I announce myself before entering the home. 

JP is right. There have been cases of people dressing up as police, and breaking in.


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## DrParasite (May 27, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> JP is right. There have been cases of people dressing up as police, and breaking in.


and sometimes, when you aim your gun at the cops, they tend to shoot are you.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/family-demands-answers-fatal-shooting-marine-swat-team/story?id=13640112


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## JPINFV (May 27, 2011)

My biggest concern about that is why are the police such bad shots that they needed 71 rounds?

Of course the biggest problem is the following line, "And the Pima County sheriff, whose team conducted the raid, scolded the media for "questioning the legality" of the shooting." (Why does Pima County hate the first amendment?)

Finally, why are they busting down the door in the first place? Just chock this up to another "victory" in the "war on drugs." Reasons like this is exactly why any sort of busting down the door (be it knock and bust down or no knock warrants) needs to be essentially non-existent.


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## HotelCo (May 27, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> and sometimes, when you aim your gun at the cops, they tend to shoot are you.
> http://abcnews.go.com/US/family-demands-answers-fatal-shooting-marine-swat-team/story?id=13640112



That's the conundrum, isn't it?

Do you assume the person breaking into your house is a police officer, and just lie on the ground, or do you assume they are a criminal, and fight back?


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## DesertMedic66 (May 27, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> That's the conundrum, isn't it?
> 
> Do you assume the person breaking into your house is a police officer, and just lie on the ground, or do you assume they are a criminal, and fight back?



If anyone breaks into my house they are a criminal until proven otherwise. Most if not all law enforcement should announce themselves either when they knock or when they bust the door down.


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## JPINFV (May 27, 2011)

firefite said:


> If anyone breaks into my house they are a criminal until proven otherwise. Most if not all law enforcement should announce themselves either when they knock or when they bust the door down.



So you should trust the person breaking into your house isn't lying? What's stopping the criminals from yelling "Police!"?


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## DrParasite (May 27, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> My biggest concern about that is why are the police such bad shots that they needed 71 rounds?


71 rounds in 7 seconds?  71 rounds spread by 6 officers?  cops are trained to keep shooting until the threat is mitigated.  i'd rather see them fire 71 shots and hit him 60 times vs fire only 12 shots and him him only once and have him shoot back and kill them.  after all, drug dealers often have no issues shooting at police (I know that's not the case in this situation, but the general principle is sound).


JPINFV said:


> Of course the biggest problem is the following line, "And the Pima County sheriff, whose team conducted the raid, scolded the media for "questioning the legality" of the shooting." (Why does Pima County hate the first amendment?)


so the officers are guilty in the press until proven innocent?  the media already convicted these officers, before all the facts were known.  he was right to say what he said.  they don't have to like it, but he stands up for his men.


JPINFV said:


> Finally, why are they busting down the door in the first place? Just chock this up to another "victory" in the "war on drugs." Reasons like this is exactly why any sort of busting down the door (be it knock and bust down or no knock warrants) needs to be essentially non-existent.


your statement shows both ignorance and a complete disregard for officer safety.  do you know anything about police work?  what should the cops do, knock on the door and politely wait for the drug dealers to let them in?  hell no!!! 

I know this might shock you, but drug dealers and other not nice people will either destroy evidence before they open the door, flee the scene before they let the cops in, or just start shooting at the police.  if the warrant specifies no knock, than the cops should take down the door, catch the suspects off guard, and secure said suspects before they can harm the law enforcement officers.  

I can't speak for anyone else, but if I don't go to any more PD LODD funerals, that will be perfectly ok with me.


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## DesertMedic66 (May 27, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> So you should trust the person breaking into your house isn't lying? What's stopping the criminals from yelling "Police!"?



Never said I would trust them. If they say they are the police then I am going to ask for a badge and ID along with a search warrant before I put away my weapon. 

But I have never heard of a criminal breaking into someones house while yelling "police".


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## JPINFV (May 27, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> 71 rounds in 7 seconds?  71 rounds spread by 6 officers?  cops are trained to keep shooting until the threat is mitigated.  i'd rather see them fire 71 shots and hit him 60 times vs fire only 12 shots and him him only once and have him shoot back and kill them.  after all, drug dealers often have no issues shooting at police (I know that's not the case in this situation, but the general principle is sound).


12 shots and 1 hit? I'd say that there's 6 officers who either need to be fired or spend some serious time with the range instructor. What's their backstop? They knew other people were in the house, while they're unloading their clip, are they at risk of hitting someone else? So, yea, 71 shots in 6 seconds is pretty questionable. 



> so the officers are guilty in the press until proven innocent?  the media already convicted these officers, before all the facts were known.  he was right to say what he said.  they don't have to like it, but he stands up for his men.


Is that different than everyone else? So, what are your thoughts on John Loughner or Giovanni Ramirez (the man accused of beating Bryan Stow)? Are the press not supposed to ask questions now because it may shine in a bad light? What's your stance on OJ Simpson? Is he guilty even though a jury found him not guilty? 

...and yes, I've seen too much bad crud to just give the police a free pass. When police are allowed to stomp on "suspects" (especially when it's the wrong guy, a la Seattle's Shady Cobane incident) or freely threaten to shoot law abiding citizens (Rod Tuason from the East Palo Alto PD), and the majority of police try to protect the bad cops, then sorry, the "The police are always right, until blatantly prove wrong" train has left the station. 



> your statement shows both ignorance and a complete disregard for officer safety.  do you know anything about police work?  what should the cops do, knock on the door and politely wait for the drug dealers to let them in?  hell no!!!
> 
> I know this might shock you, but drug dealers and other not nice people will either destroy evidence before they open the door, flee the scene before they let the cops in, or just start shooting at the police.  if the warrant specifies no knock, than the cops should take down the door, catch the suspects off guard, and secure said suspects before they can harm the law enforcement officers.
> 
> I can't speak for anyone else, but if I don't go to any more PD LODD funerals, that will be perfectly ok with me.


So, where are the drugs that he was dealing again? Last I heard they found absolutely no drugs in the house. Additionally, you know what? If what it takes is letting drug dealers flush a bag of weed down the drain to ensure officer, *and civilian,* safety, then so be it. Better than the risk of barging into the wrong house. Additionally, any damage, injury, or death due to wrong house raids should result in civil and criminal prosecution of the people in charge of said raid. Bust down the wrong house and someone get's killed? Raid commander goes to jail. 

No knock warrants have their place. However that place is extremely limited and rare. Additional, "ZOMG, they might flush the toilet" shouldn't be involved. The officer does not get to value his life and safety above mine, and, being a law abiding citizen, I have no problem shooting people who break down my door. 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd rather have no funerals. Why do you only care about the police? After all, isn't everyone guilty until proven innocent, as your first argument laid out?


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## JPINFV (May 27, 2011)

firefite said:


> Never said I would trust them. If they say they are the police then I am going to ask for a badge and ID along with a search warrant before I put away my weapon.
> 
> But I have never heard of a criminal breaking into someones house while yelling "police".



So the police are busting down your door in a no knock or knock and annouce raid. Do you think that they're going to let you look at their credientials?

http://www.times-georgian.com/view/...rs-wore--police--shirts?instance=west_ga_news


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## DesertMedic66 (May 27, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> So the police are busting down your door in a no knock or knock and annouce raid. Do you think that they're going to let you look at their credientials?
> 
> http://www.times-georgian.com/view/...rs-wore--police--shirts?instance=west_ga_news



If it is a knock warrant then yes they will show me their credentials. And for here when they do bust down the door warrants they will have a full SWAT team along with flashbangs and clearly will say "police". Then that's proof enough for me. If they are still criminals with all of that then wow they got me and can kill me.


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## Foxbat (May 27, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> What if the uniforms are stolen or fake?


What if the police officer who yells "stop!" and then tries to arrest you on the street is an impersonator? What if the cruiser who is pulling you over is "fake"? For all intents and purposes, these are kidnapping attempts, just shoot the (possibly) bad guys, right?


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## mycrofft (May 27, 2011)

*What if the EMT had been armed?*

.......


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## Jon (May 27, 2011)

Alright, guys... lets keep it on topic. If you really want to see a tragedy, look up Jose Guerena's death. But lets not talk about that here.


As for the original story:
The EMS crew DID announce their presence... the resident had just woken up and was hard of hearing. He finally figured out what was up when he recognized the property manager.

I make SURE to announce whenever I walk though a door... I want to give myself every protection.


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## mycrofft (May 27, 2011)

*We were taught no entry without the owner telling us to , or LE doing the entry*

And by owner I mean the occupant.


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