# THC for the EMT ?



## EMS971 (Feb 22, 2014)

figured i would stir the pot a bit here (no pun intended)...anyway what are your thoughts about EMS and other health care professionals that use marijuana either medically or recreational  use (obviously never on duty) ?  I smoked a few times a week when i was a basic, i always found it very therapeutic and relaxing. i never wanted to just get "stoned" ...but i nice buzz was perfect.  but once medic school started I wasnt about to take the chance. my question is how does it work in places like Colorado where its legal ? can you be fired for a positive THC screen ? now if your on the no side of this can you elaborate the difference between smoking on occasion and drinking on occasion


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## chaz90 (Feb 22, 2014)

I'm not about to get into a debate on this topic as a whole, but employers in CO can and will fire employees for positive drug tests. As long as it's illegal on the federal level, even use with a medicinal card can be grounds for termination. Also, Colorado is an "at will employment" state, so there's that component as well.


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## DesertMedic66 (Feb 22, 2014)

chaz90 said:


> I'm not about to get into a debate on this topic as a whole, but employers in CO can and will fire employees for positive drug tests. As long as it's illegal on the federal level, even use with a medicinal card can be grounds for termination. Also, Colorado is an "at will employment" state, so there's that component as well.



This. It is still illegal at the federal level. Also it's hard to test when an employee smoked it last or ate it last. There was something I heard about a saliva test but I don't remember what it said. 

If you want to get stoned then go for it. Just realize if caught you will more than likely be fired. My company has zero tolerance. If we are involved in an accident, even if it's not our fault, we get drug tested pretty much on the spot. Positive results mean you are fired and legal charges may occur (DUI).


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## EMS971 (Feb 22, 2014)

like i said i quit once i went medic. Im not so much interested in what your company or FD policies are ...more what you think of the topic. and yes they do have saliva tests out they are new and still pretty much unheard of.


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## DesertMedic66 (Feb 22, 2014)

What I think matches exactly what my companies policy is on it lol


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## EMS971 (Feb 22, 2014)

DesertEMT66 said:


> What I think matches exactly what my companies policy is on it lol



fair enough lol


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## TransportJockey (Feb 22, 2014)

My opinion is that what they want to do in the privacy of their own home is their business. But just like ETOH, coming to work when you are intoxicated is a no-no. And until better tests come out, there's no good way to tell if the THC is still active in their system, so if you pop positive you should be gone.


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## Akulahawk (Feb 22, 2014)

EMS971 said:


> figured i would stir the pot a bit here (no pun intended)...anyway what are your thoughts about EMS and other health care professionals that use marijuana either medically or recreational  use (obviously never on duty) ?  I smoked a few times a week when i was a basic, i always found it very therapeutic and relaxing. i never wanted to just get "stoned" ...but i nice buzz was perfect.  but once medic school started I wasnt about to take the chance. my question is how does it work in places like Colorado where its legal ? can you be fired for a positive THC screen ? now if your on the no side of this can you elaborate the difference between smoking on occasion and drinking on occasion


If you smoked MJ a few times per week, then you very easily had detectible levels of THC in your system all the time. The problem is that MJ is a Schedule 1 drug at the Federal Level, and even though some states have legalized/decriminalized possession, it's still Federally illegal for you to have it or use it. You can still be fired for having a positive THC result because your employer usually states when (or before) they hire you that you can be fired for a positive drug test. You may be reported to the State for that positive drug test and the State may act on that information as well. 

There are a couple of issues with MJ vs EtOH. With EtOH, your blood level is easily quantifiable, there's a presumed intoxication level, and there's a known rate at which it's metabolized from your bloodstream. In short, you drink EtOH and in a certain amount of time, it's gone. With MJ, the tests aren't anywhere near as quantifiable and the stuff remains detectible for a long, long time. Who is to say that you've used the stuff a few hours ago or a couple weeks ago? Are you still under the influence at the time of the positive test result? See why you'll have problems if you use and get into a wreck? 

I'm not going to get into whether or not I think it's good idea to use MJ for recreational or medicinal purposes. The bottom line is that it's Federally illegal and you can get fired for using it.



TransportJockey said:


> My opinion is that what they want to do in  the privacy of their own home is their business. But just like ETOH,  coming to work when you are intoxicated is a no-no. And until better  tests come out, there's no good way to tell if the THC is still active  in their system, so if you pop positive you should be gone.



Otherwise, pretty much this!!!


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## Handsome Robb (Feb 23, 2014)

Until it is legalized federally I doubt any EMS agency will have anything other than a zero policy since the MD that writes your protocols has a DEA license. Can't exactly allow medical professionals you're extending your license to to use a substance that an agency who you carry a license through views as illegal.

Saliva tests are getting better and better, generally can accurately detect use within the last 24-72 hours. I've heard of CO companies using these types of tests rather than urinalysis. 

I've got my own options on pot, if rather smoke than drink but I'd rather be employed than not so I'll stick to beer until something changes at the federal level. Even then employers still have the right to have a no THC policy just like places have no nicotine policies.


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## TransportJockey (Feb 23, 2014)

The other issue is that in a lot of states (like NM) we are required to hold a US DOT medical card to work on a bus. That means THC is strictly forbidden to get one of those.


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## EMSComeLately (Feb 23, 2014)

From my perspective, there are many legal substances (or health conditions) available that still may compromise our patient's care, i.e. ETOH, OTC meds, etc.  Therefore it is our responsibility to determine for every shift whether we should be providing care.

For those that have pilot's licenses, the FAA is clear that it expects the Pilot to determine their fitness for flying that day.  And if you choose to fly anyway (whether personally or professionally), you are held responsible for any negative outcomes.

Whether it is a CYA policy by the company or not, I support that there are greater limitations and standards we must meet in providing our services and would want the integrity of the profession to remain intact.


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## mycrofft (Feb 23, 2014)

If you need to smoke it three times a week "for relaxation", you need to assess what's causing the need for relaxation, same as a counselor would if you _had_ to drink to intoxication (relaxation, not rip roaring stoned) three time a week. Nature makes you wary and edgy for a reason, to spur you to take action. Maybe there's something needing attention, like that overdue student loan, or the guy next door sharpening the knives day in and day out, or the appointment you are about to miss with the doctor? Or the smoke alarm? :rofl:

How can cannabis be a prescription drug AND an over the counter recreational material at the same time and same dosages? And smoking as a controlled and healthful route of entry? (How about as a suppository? Yeah!).

I know it's a done deal, and it is necessary, but I can still point out the foolishness and the stupid double standard of it all.


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## unleashedfury (Feb 24, 2014)

Isn't there a ton of threads on this subject... 

most recent one I can recall

http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=38766&highlight=marijuana


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## Handsome Robb (Feb 24, 2014)

There are lots of ways to consume THC without smoking it although smoking is the most prevalent. 

Yes if you "need" something to relax yourself you have a problem but I still see zero problem in recreational or medicinal use. None.


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## mycrofft (Feb 24, 2014)

unleashedfury said:


> Isn't there a ton of threads on this subject...
> 
> most recent one I can recall
> 
> http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=38766&highlight=marijuana



Yeah, this is one of those black holes of EMTLIFE. But unavoidable.


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## mycrofft (Feb 24, 2014)

Robb said:


> There are lots of ways to consume THC without smoking it although smoking is the most prevalent.
> 
> Yes if you "need" something to relax yourself you have a problem but I still see zero problem in recreational or medicinal use. None.



I see troubles now and in the future,  but having worked in corrections I think the effort, expense and personal destruction caused by marijuana chasing (of users and small time dealers) is not worth it when you can legalize it, CONTROL IT, and then focus on collecting revenues and preventing bootlegging. Even some of my conservative former co-workers think the same.

Where's Elliot Ness* when we need him? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





*Yeah, I know he was largely mythical and the IRS put and end to Al Capone.


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## unleashedfury (Feb 25, 2014)

mycrofft said:


> I see troubles now and in the future,  but having worked in corrections I think the effort, expense and personal destruction caused by marijuana chasing (of users and small time dealers) is not worth it when you can legalize it, CONTROL IT, and then focus on collecting revenues and preventing bootlegging. Even some of my conservative former co-workers think the same.
> 
> Where's Elliot Ness* when we need him?
> 
> ...



I'm a bit more liberal to the idea, however theres the big issue "CONTROL of bootlegging" Tobacco can only grow in certain areas. as well as Coccoa and coffee beans. Marijuana can grow just about anywhere. (that's why they call it weed right?). I was reading an article not to long ago that the ones who are making the most of the legal marijuana sales in Colorado are the small time street dealers. Since the state has their regulated pricetag. Pot farmers are making out since they can make the sale on the street corner cheaper.


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## joshrunkle35 (Feb 26, 2014)

From a psychological perspective, I don't think that anyone in EMS that takes any substance to "relax" after work (including alcohol) should have access to narcotics. When the situation gets bad enough, And the person has access, they might turn to a worse substance. 

I think I remember reading once that EMS is the worst profession for people who have no drug seeking behavior that suddenly become drug addicts. Ask any agency and most likely they've fired someone for something related to using company narcotics. 

My view of society is that people should be able to do as they wish in the privacy of their home as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. I don't think that this is the case for EMS. We have a duty to the public, and there shouldn't be an area where doubt is created. Using recreational drugs, or going home and drinking every night after work create doubt for the public, they create a problem if you are called back in to work during an emergency, and they show signs of psychological addiction.


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## Handsome Robb (Feb 26, 2014)

Get off your soap box. We're no different than anyone else.

EMS is a job. Nothing more. 

Lose the flaming skull t-shirt and star of life stickers. 

How does the general public know what we do in our off time? Riddle me that? I'm not advocating coming into work hungover or tired because you got blasted the night before but if I want to go home and have a beer after I get off work on my own time that's my right.

You enjoy sitting next to your scanner waiting for a run to drop close enough to your house that you can jump it.


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## STXmedic (Feb 26, 2014)

But... But... It's a calling! *insert choice LIV cliché here*


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## NomadicMedic (Feb 26, 2014)

A bit of a polarizing topic. Just a reminder to stay civil and respectful in this thread.

Don't make my put on my Moderator PPE so I won't get splattered when I swing the ban hammah.


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## Handsome Robb (Feb 26, 2014)

Redacted so DE doesn't have to bust out the PPE.

I take a pretty deep offense to he insinuation that anyone who drinks alcohol or uses/has used marijuana automatically will divert narcotics.


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## Tigger (Feb 26, 2014)

Robb said:


> Redacted so DE doesn't have to bust out the PPE.
> 
> I take a pretty deep offense to he insinuation that anyone who drinks alcohol or uses/has used marijuana automatically will divert narcotics.



Or that there's anything wrong with having a beer to relax. I can relax just fine without one, but it's a lo better with one. It's not like I have demons from work that follow me home after every shift, but it's work. It wears you down a little.


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## dixie_flatline (Feb 26, 2014)

Just chiming in that I too like beer, although I have cut down drastically because my metabolism stopped processing carbs into energy after I turned 30 - everything goes directly to fat now.

I also support the legalization of THC/cannabis/marijuana both from a social perspective and a taxation one.  I haven't used it myself in over 10 years, but I think decriminalization is the right move.  I think the statistics and my own anecdotal experience suggests that occasional use is no worse than any other legal substance, and certainly not as habit-forming as nicotine or outright dangerous as alcohol.

I have certainly never considered using narcotics, either personally acquired or stolen from work.  

PS - Here's an updated count of the number of people who have died from marijuana


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## joshrunkle35 (Feb 26, 2014)

Enjoying a beer after work is worlds apart from needing one after work. Which is worlds apart from needing many after every shift.


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## chaz90 (Feb 26, 2014)

Where in your initial post did you mention "need" to drink or "many" drinks?



joshrunkle35 said:


> From a psychological perspective, I don't think that anyone in EMS that takes any substance to "relax" after work (including alcohol) should have access to narcotics. When the situation gets bad enough, And the person has access, they might turn to a worse substance.



Choosing to have a drink or two to relax or for simple enjoyment doesn't really make a difference to me. You're right that it begins to present a problem if it is a psychological or physical necessity or if it begins to interfere with other parts of your life, but your first post didn't clarify that. 

Don't get caught up in a slippery slope fallacy either. There is absolutely no link to the implication that if someone drinks recreationally they are more likely to divert narcotics.


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## Handsome Robb (Feb 26, 2014)

joshrunkle35 said:


> Enjoying a beer after work is worlds apart from needing one after work. Which is worlds apart from needing many after every shift.



Apparently not by the standards of some in this thread.


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## unleashedfury (Feb 26, 2014)

joshrunkle35 said:


> I think I remember reading once that EMS is the worst profession for people who have no drug seeking behavior that suddenly become drug addicts. Ask any agency and most likely they've fired someone for something related to using company narcotics.
> 
> My view of society is that people should be able to do as they wish in the privacy of their home as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. I don't think that this is the case for EMS. We have a duty to the public, and there shouldn't be an area where doubt is created. Using recreational drugs, or going home and drinking every night after work create doubt for the public, they create a problem if you are called back in to work during an emergency, and they show signs of psychological addiction.



Its not EMS, but healthcare as a whole there are tons of nurses, physicians and other healthcare providers have been shown to have addiction to narcotics. Its just reality. 

If I am off duty and choose to drink a beer,, or go on a binge and make a pig of myself. That's my choice. If I am "called to return to duty" even in a emergency, Its my responsibility to state to my employer that I am under the influence of a substance that prohibits me from performing my daily job activities. They have 50 other employees they can call to help in a emergency that are closer to my place of employment. vs. me to drive 50 minutes.



dixie_flatline said:


> Just chiming in that I too like beer, although I have cut down drastically because my metabolism stopped processing carbs into energy after I turned 30 - everything goes directly to fat now.
> 
> I also support the legalization of THC/cannabis/marijuana both from a social perspective and a taxation one.  I haven't used it myself in over 10 years, but I think decriminalization is the right move.  I think the statistics and my own anecdotal experience suggests that occasional use is no worse than any other legal substance, and certainly not as habit-forming as nicotine or outright dangerous as alcohol.
> 
> ...



While it is true that no one has died directly from marijuana overdose, the indirect effects of people who are killed under the influence is what is not shown. We as a society cannot be responsible enough to avoid DUI's let alone DU Highs.


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## Rockies (Mar 1, 2014)

Well here in Colorado they leave it up to the individual departments. I have'nt heard of anyone pissing hot and keeping their jobs. Even if you have a medical card its still looked down upon.


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## Tigger (Mar 1, 2014)

Rockies said:


> Well here in Colorado they leave it up to the individual departments. I have'nt heard of anyone pissing hot and keeping their jobs. Even if you have a medical card its still looked down upon.



A medical card will not keep you employed at most Colorado agencies either...

It all comes down to insurance really.


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## Handsome Robb (Mar 1, 2014)

And that pesky DEA license your MD has. Can't really have employees using a schedule 1 substance and give them access to narcotics. I'd think they'd frown on that. 

I think even when it's legalized there will be plenty of agencies with no THC rules just like there are plenty of agencies with no nicotine rules. There's still going to be people that think that anyone that uses it responsibly in their free time are degenerates and addicts without taking any other variables into account.


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## mycrofft (Mar 1, 2014)

_I think I remember reading once that EMS is the worst profession for people who have no drug seeking behavior that suddenly become drug addicts_

Citation please?:huh:

Arguing that a bad status quo has to be accepted is wrong in so many directions. ("The other kids all stay up to watch skin flicks, why can't I?").


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## Handsome Robb (Mar 1, 2014)

I have no doubt we're up there on the list, along with most every acute care healthcare professional and public servant.

Hell I'm sure it's prevalent in providers outside of acute care. I couldn't imagine specializing in end of life care...I'm sure it's very rewarding but at the same time that would wear on me.


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