# Can you use your EMT Work hours towards PA school



## redbull (May 12, 2010)

Hi guys. I'm still deciding between nursing and PA school. I've completed all my pre-requisites for nursing school. But I'm still thinking about PA school, too. I know you need over 100 hospital hours as a pre-req for most PA programs... 

I also know I'm gonna have to do another year of chemistry and bio, too. I'm just wondering if you can use your EMT job hours towards that or just your EMT school clinical hours? 

Please advise. 

Thanks! B)


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## ProfessionalParamedic (May 12, 2010)

So you are trying to become a Physicians Assistant.  Wish you the best.

As to the question check with the schools you are looking at so you get the right answer.


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## iamajammer (May 12, 2010)

I'm not sure where you live, but here in CA you can use your hours as an emt towards a PA program, however; you typically need 2-3 years full time. Best of luck to you.


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## TransportJockey (May 12, 2010)

I know a medic who worked for a FD in NM that was able to use his work hours to meet PA requirements


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## medicdan (May 12, 2010)

It all depends on the school. As I learned tonight, just like pre-reqs, each school has different standards. My understanding is that if schools allow EMS experience, they require it to be non-transfer, 911. 
Good Luck!


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## ExpatMedic0 (May 12, 2010)

2 of my EMT-B partners are in the process of applying to PA schools right now. This is second hand information but they both told me there EMT-B hours counted. The only catch is they have to be "documented hours" 

PA is a great road to go down if you got a bachlors and EMS isent your thing. Plus a lot of extra money! I have lost a lot of good co workers and partners over the past few years to PA school, but I bet it paid off for them!


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## firecoins (May 12, 2010)

1. Yes you can. EMT-b is a common way to fulfill it.

2. Check with the admission dept at the schools of your choice on their exact requirment.

3. Check out the PA forum.


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## sunbee (May 13, 2010)

sure you can but u should be an attendant, 
emt is good for pa school, that's what i did to get in


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## medic417 (May 13, 2010)

It is sad that they give credit for being an ambulance driver.  I guess PA is perfect fit for people in EMS as it takes short cuts.


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## EMSLaw (May 13, 2010)

medic417 said:


> It is sad that they give credit for being an ambulance driver.  I guess PA is perfect fit for people in EMS as it takes short cuts.



Are you saying that becoming a PA is somehow a shortcut?  That shows a staggering level of ignorance about what PAs are and do.


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## medic417 (May 13, 2010)

EMSLaw said:


> Are you saying that becoming a PA is somehow a shortcut?  That shows a staggering level of ignorance about what PAs are and do.



Well in a way yes.  Why not go get a complete education and become a doctor?  Plus accepting emt for credit really lowers my opinion of the educational requirements they have.  Only plus is that at least you are not expected to become a PA and work a few years before going on and becoming a real doctor.  

And actually I am very aware of what they do and how they are used.  Some places use them to save money rather than paying for a Doctor to be there, just like many places use emt's because they are cheaper then Paramedics and those in charge know that much of the public has no clue as to how much less education the person that is treating them has.


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## got_shoes (May 13, 2010)

Ok, so I will say this most states require a masters degree, with approx 120 credit hours is a shortcut. Thats a very interesting way to look at things, and how is paying an EM PA cheaper then paying an EM doc? Seeing as in the world of PA's emergency medicine is one of the highest paid in the U.S., further more in this country with the issues regarding healthcare and its current "crisis". Why wouldn't it make sense for hospitals and other health care facilities  to have mid level care providers, either PA's or NP's? Are you also against advanced practice paramedics?


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## usafmedic45 (May 13, 2010)

> lus accepting emt for credit really lowers my opinion of the educational requirements they have.



It doesn't count for "credit" against the prereqs at any program I am aware of (and I considered and looked into PA school at one point).  It counts towards the mandatory clinical experience you need to apply.  Think of it as the equivalent of requiring a year of experience as an EMT-B before going to EMT-P.


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## medic417 (May 13, 2010)

usafmedic45 said:


> It doesn't count for "credit" against the prereqs at any program I am aware of (and I considered and looked into PA school at one point).  It counts towards the mandatory clinical experience you need to apply.  Think of it as the equivalent of requiring a year of experience as an EMT-B before going to EMT-P.



So another flawed reasoning.  How does 1 year as an ambulance driver help for Paramedic?  And in all honesty there is no way it will help you as a PA.  They don't drive.


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## usafmedic45 (May 13, 2010)

> How does 1 year as an ambulance driver help for Paramedic?



You do realize there are a lot of places (mostly rural areas) that don't use EMTs solely as drivers?  As I pointed out in other threads, it serves two purposes in EMS:  weeding out those with glaring unsuitability (personality, stupidity, etc) and allowing people to "check out" the field for themselves before spending a year or more becoming a paramedic.  I am a believer that EMT should be relegated to a first responder type role, but you and I both know that is not going to happen most non-urban environments in the foreseeable future. 

Not to mention that even non-911 experience in the back of an ambulance is still going to be more clinically relevant than being an orderly or candy stripper or any of the other ways people try to fulfill clinical experience requirements for PA school.


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## Veneficus (May 13, 2010)

usafmedic45 said:


> It doesn't count for "credit" against the prereqs at any program I am aware of (and I considered and looked into PA school at one point).  It counts towards the mandatory clinical experience you need to apply.  Think of it as the equivalent of requiring a year of experience as an EMT-B before going to EMT-P.



Most PA schools I have heard of require 100 or more hours of clinical time to even apply. I am not sure why. If you plan to actually get an education to operate in a clinical capacity in all but the most basic (like EMT) levels it will take you at least a year if not 2. At which point, if your route was ADN you are much better off continuing to BSN, MSN, NP, and CRNA. (the last of which I have the most respect for based on their curriculum) 

If you take the time and extreme effort become an RRT, I can't imagine why you would go to PA school. The pay and job prospects aren't bad, and with all the knowledge, PhD, MD, or DO seems like a much better goal. I know several paramedics who are now docs. I have never met or heard of a prior RT doc and only one RN to MD.

That pretty much narrows down "clinical experience" of what I would call significance to paramedics. (unless you get lucky and land a really good job as a med tech or CNA)

So just like waiting a year as a basic to become a medic, a preapplication clinical requirement seems like an utter waste.

Some will say the point is to see if you like the healthcare profession, but honestly, how much exposure does a volunteer in a hospital or even a 911 EMT really get?

We still have EMTs who haven't figured out that the oversimplified handful of pathology they learn about with no other education or background can't possibly do the same assessment as somebody with minimally more education. I see EMTs all the time say they can do as good as an assessment as a paramedic. I don't often see other providers claim to be able to do an assessment as good as a doctor.

Aside from education, is there any other difference between an EMT and a physician?

Logically if the larger amount of education leads to better assessment for a physician why would an emt think their assessment would be equal to anybody else with more education? 

It vexes me.


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## usafmedic45 (May 13, 2010)

> If you take the time and extreme effort become an RRT, I can't imagine why you would go to PA school.



Lest I provoke the wrath of VentMedic (and her several alter egos on this site), I'm not going to touch that. LOL



> That pretty much narrows down "clinical experience" of what I would call significance to paramedics.



I don't think they are really looking for something where you already know how to care for patients. I think (and was told by admissions at one PA school) that they are looking for people who know simply what it is like to take care of patients.  The scope of practice is really not a major issue.  It's the social experience of being responsible for the care of another person that they are looking for.  I agree that EMT is far from ideal experience, but would you rather someone using it as a stepping stone take yet another paramedic class seat from a student who actually wants to be a paramedic?


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## Veneficus (May 13, 2010)

usafmedic45 said:


> I agree that EMT is far from ideal experience, but would you rather someone using it as a stepping stone take yet another paramedic class seat from a student who actually wants to be a paramedic?



In my career I have only ever met a handful of medics who didn't want to use EMS as a stepping stone. (including myself) But with the lack of opportunity as a medic, even some of the ones dedicated to EMS eventually leave for bigger things. (including more than me) 

Most medic students I teach only get their medic to apply for FDs that require it. All but a handful of the medics i taught who wanted to be only medics have moved on.

I don't think it is right, but EMS seems to be a stepping stone to all but a handful.


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## dudemanguy (May 13, 2010)

I dont understand it. Do some people think that when an EMT arrives on scene they just say to the medic hey dude do your thing, I'll just hang back here in the ambulance while you work, gimme a holler if you need me to lift something? Good luck doing that, let me know how it worked out for you.

Of course working as an EMT would help you if you want to become a paramedic. You can debate how important it is, but to claim it has NO value  is being dishonest. 

Also, while driving an ambulance isnt a big deal in sunny california or florida, In far north states where you have EMTs driving in blizzards and on icy roads for several months out of the year Id rather work with someone whos done it under pressure before.


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## Veneficus (May 13, 2010)

dudemanguy said:


> Of course working as an EMT would help you if you want to become a paramedic. You can debate how important it is, but to claim it has NO value  is being dishonest..



I can't speak for everyone, but for myself, and I imagine for others, when we speak of EMT experience as being worthless before becomming a medic, we are talking about the educational curriculum and the ability to apply the theory that is taught to the street. (because there is a total absence of theory in the effort to preach skills) 

It is not that being proficent in any particular skill isn't helpful or useful, but without understanding theory, short cuts, "the street way," and room for other bad habits and faulty decision making can develop.

In an adult learner, it is exponentially harder to unlearn and relearn. I therefore subscribe that practicing skills without theory or knowledge potentially creates complications that exceed the benefit. 

As for driving. a growing body of evidence is demonstrating the use of emergency drving procedures (aka lights and sirens, increased speed, ignoring traffic signals, etc,) has very little effect on patient outcome and a very large effect on injury to providers and the public, both directly and wake effect. 

I have posted over years, that patient care, not delivering people to the hospital needs to be the focus of EMS. I realize that in certain cases only a hospital has the resources needed, but it in no way justifies the danger that has been the status quo for so long. 

If weather or road conditions require an experienced under stress driver, then in the interest of safety, the stress needs to be removed. The lights and sirens need to be shut off, the speed needs to be absolutely as safe as possible, and normal traffic signals should be obeyed. 

If that means the occasional patient dies or is further disabled to protect both the providers and the public, then that is what needs to be accepted.

Unequivocally if a provider injures or kill somebody else trying to help another person (especially if for better or worse speed will not make a difference), they are not useless, they are a menace, and should be removed from service immediately.


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## Aerin-Sol (May 14, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> Most PA schools I have heard of require 100 or more hours of clinical time to even apply. I am not sure why. If you plan to actually get an education to operate in a clinical capacity in all but the most basic (like EMT) levels it will take you at least a year if not 2. At which point, if your route was ADN you are much better off continuing to BSN, MSN, NP, and CRNA. (the last of which I have the most respect for based on their curriculum)



PA school wasn't created for people who are considering getting into a healthcare field. It was designed for people who had already gotten medical training as a nurse or paramedic (or originally a military medic) as a way to expand their knowledge/scope of practice. When it was originally created, the only way to advance would have been to go to college, get all of the pre-reqs for medical school and go through medical school and residency, and someone who was 40-year-old wouldn't want to go through 10 years of training, especially when they didn't actually want to be a doctor.


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## firecoins (May 14, 2010)

Aerin-Sol said:


> PA school wasn't created for people who are considering getting into a healthcare field. It was designed for people who had already gotten medical training as a nurse or paramedic (or originally a military medic) as a way to expand their knowledge/scope of practice. When it was originally created, the only way to advance would have been to go to college, get all of the pre-reqs for medical school and go through medical school and residency, and someone who was 40-year-old wouldn't want to go through 10 years of training, especially when they didn't actually want to be a doctor.



The original design was for military medics who were too old to go to medical school and had no civilian certification to do anything.  

EMT-B is used as a way to get clinical time for P.A. school because ot shows you can be responisble with a patient in your care. One must still take all the pre req classes. The monkey skills paramedics learn are taught in PA school.


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## ScoopandSwoop (May 15, 2010)

REMT-P and PA-C here.

PA programs look upon previous clinical experience favorably. I have a friend who serves on an Admissions Committee for a PA/MS program, and he told me that they take an applicant's direct patient care contact into consideration (not necessarily low call volume EMS systems or infrequent engagement (e.g. occasional volunteer work)). I wouldn't count on EMT certification alone to do much for you, as EMT programs are not universally based in recognized academic institutions, and their faculty are not universally credentialed as Bachelor's or Master's prepared educators (e.g. tenured college or university faculty), hence EMT training may be viewed as training (by trainers) and not education (by educators).

With regard to going the RN or PA route, each has their own unique characteristics and career path. If your Primary Care Physician has an NP or PA who works with him/her, ask your PCP is he/she will ask them to take a few minutes to talk with you. From my primary care days, it was gratifying to see the child/patient turned young man or young woman enter our profession. I know of several patients who we cared for through their youth who became PA's or NP's; several of them viewed us as their role models, and liked the care that we provided them (outside of our heart to heart conversations about alcohol, recreational drugs, and unprotected sex).  In fact, my PCP worked with a PA, and it was that PA who served as my role model. If you decide to pursue the NP route and you have completed an undergraduate degree by the time you decide to pursue the NP pathway, take a look at NP programs that take non-nurses with undergraduate degrees that are strong in sciences, and allow them to pursue NP degrees without first being Registered Nurses. 

see: http://www.mghihp.edu/academics/nursing/degree-options/master-of-science-direct-entry/default.aspx. 

My pulmonologist’s NP became a NP via that route, and I have the highest level of confidence in her clinical acumen (and I often chose to see her over the MD).

Good luck.


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## medic417 (May 15, 2010)

Another plus to the PA is you do much of the course work online.


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## Sandog (May 15, 2010)

I have completed all of my prerequisites to apply for a BSN at San Diego State University. I sat down and had a meeting with the SDSU nursing school adviser, even with a 3.6 GPA It was suggested to me by the adviser that I perform some EMT work before applying to the BSN program. SDSU uses a points based system and direct medical experience is an additional 15 points out of 90.


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