# How long is the paramedic course where you're at



## fortsmithman (Oct 27, 2008)

The closest courses from here are in Alberta and they are 2 years to complete with the exception of Medicine Hat College where it's a 4 year degree.  And do you think these are long enough, not long enough, or too long.


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## tydek07 (Oct 27, 2008)

I think those are long enough.

The 4 year one is very long. 2 year programs are what you see the most of.

I went to an accelerated program that was 11 months long...

So there is a wide variety of class lengths... just depends what length you feel comforable doing.


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## EMTCop86 (Oct 27, 2008)

The paramedic program at my school, Crafton Hills College, could be either 10 or 12 months long. Didactic 472 hours, clinical 164 hours, and field 600 hours. It is also accredited by the CAAHEP. I also heard from a couple of people that it is one of the best in southern California but I do not know how accurate that is. I will be taking my EMT-B there starting in January.


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## VentMedic (Oct 27, 2008)

EMTCop86 said:


> The paramedic program at my school, Crafton Hills College, could be either 10 or 12 months long. Didactic *472* hours, clinical *164* hours, and field *600* hours. It is also accredited by the CAAHEP. I also heard from a couple of people that it is one of the best in southern California but I do not know how accurate that is. I will be taking my EMT-B there starting in January.


 
California requires all of their Paramedic programs to be accredited by CAAHEP/CoAEMSP.

These are the minimum requirements of the state so you can see how well the school exceeds or just meets them.




The minimum number of hours required for training are: 

Didactic and skills = *450* hours
Hospital and clinical training = *160* hours
Field internship (which must include a minimum of 40 advanced life support (ALS) patient contacts) = *480* hours
At least Crafton Hills College is a state community college that does require at least one semester of college A&P. With the additional college EDUCATION, you could truly say your program offered you the opportunity to exceed the minimum requirements since many programs require no college prerequisites at all and rely only on that watered down overview text used in "A&P for the Paramedic". When comparing that to the college A&P books which are used for all other healthcare programs, it is like a remedial class textbook.

The price for California CC is very reasonable averaging only $20/credit hour. At that price it would be worth the effort to continue to the Associates degree. 


It is difficult for Americans in EMS to compare a Canadian system because we have become very accustomed to PDQ medic marts and many have argued against the horrors of getting an education for the EMS profession. Our measuring system of "hours of training" rarely translates into the equivalent of degree credits. Some can make a 110 hour EMS course sound like a year long program if it was stretched out by going just 2 hours/week.


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## Ridryder911 (Oct 27, 2008)

Again, when one can describe their education in clock hours... we have a problem.

R/r 911


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## EMTCop86 (Oct 28, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> California requires all of their Paramedic programs to be accredited by CAAHEP/CoAEMSP.
> 
> These are the minimum requirements of the state so you can see how well the school exceeds or just meets them.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for all the info. I did not know that California required the paramedic programs to be accredited.


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## EMTCop86 (Oct 28, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> Again, when one can describe their education in clock hours... we have a problem.
> 
> R/r 911


 
I got the numbers from my college catalog. I have not taken the course so I don't know what it is really like. The OP wanted to know how long it was so I got the info for them. I don't see the "problem" in that...


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## HotelCo (Oct 28, 2008)

Ours are a year - year and a quarter long. with 660 hours of clinical time.


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## Ridryder911 (Oct 28, 2008)

EMTCop86 said:


> I got the numbers from my college catalog. I have not taken the course so I don't know what it is really like. The OP wanted to know how long it was so I got the info for them. I don't see the "problem" in that...



The problem with it is "professionals" never can give their education level per clock hours (which demonstrates training NOT education) rather they are able to give it in degrees and fellowships. 

R/r 911


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## LucidResq (Oct 28, 2008)

Denver metro area: 

6-12 months - must already have EMT-B, 1 yr. field experience, basic EKG, IV approval, and 1 year of college anatomy and phys. So with all of the pre-reqs, excluding the EMT-B, you're looking at 18-24 months. I based this information on the 3 largest paramedic programs in the area, which are hospital-based. 

A local community college offers a program that is split into 3 semester-long phases, with each phase being 12-15 credit hours, and then a 6 credit hour internship.  Pre-reqs include EMT-B, EKG and IV but do not include A&P. Apparently, students complete some sort of A&P course online in their first semester. Seems like this program would take 2 years.


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## VentMedic (Oct 28, 2008)

LucidResq said:


> Denver metro area:
> 
> A local community college offers a program that is split into 3 semester-long phases, with each phase being 12-15 credit hours, and then a 6 credit hour internship. Pre-reqs include EMT-B, EKG and IV but do not include A&P. Apparently, students complete some sort of A&P course online in their first semester. Seems like this program would take 2 years.


 
Most colleges have a certificate program which is about 45 semester credits or 1 year to stay competitive with the career schools. However for some, 1 year is too long and they still seek out the medic mills at 10x the cost. It is also sad that it would just take another 20 semester hours or about 7 classes to finish the Associates degree and few do. If you finished the degree and some medical professional asks how long was your "training", you can proudly say you have an Associates degree in EMS. You would not have to  embarrass yourself with the hours thing. As stated before, many other health care professions require well over 1000 hours just for clincials and that doesn't include the book learnin'.


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## VentMedic (Oct 28, 2008)

Clarification on the above: hours of training is very differently viewed than semester credit hours.  All professionals from medicine to banking can relate to semester credit hours including those that make the legislation.


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## fma08 (Oct 28, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> Again, when one can describe their education in clock hours... we have a problem.
> 
> R/r 911



thank you!!!!


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## jochi1543 (Oct 28, 2008)

I'm in AB, so 2 years. I must say, the pay differential between EMT-A and EMT-P here is not that high, but the gap in length and cost of education is quite significant. For that matter, I'm not particularly interested in pursuing EMT-P anytime soon.


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## Foxbat (Oct 28, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> Clarification on the above: hours of training is very differently viewed than semester credit hours.  All professionals from medicine to banking can relate to semester credit hours including those that make the legislation.


If one credit hour is 1 hour of class per week for 12 weeks, then 60-credits Associate's degree is only 720 hours. That sounds barely enough to cover paramedic curriculum. Are the credit hours in above mentioned paramedic's progams defined differently from what I described?


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## VentMedic (Oct 28, 2008)

Foxbat said:


> If *one credit hour is 1 hour of class per week for 12 weeks, then 60-credits Associate's degree is only 720 hours.* That sounds barely enough to cover paramedic curriculum. Are the credit hours in above mentioned paramedic's progams defined differently from what I described?


 
Not even close.

Each credit hour corresponds to 50 minutes of lecture per week with an associated typical weekly out-of-class workload of 2-3 hours. For example, a 3 credit hour class would have a total of 150 minutes of lecture per week with 6-9 hours of out of class work. 

For the average 15 semester credit term, that is conservatively 45 hours/week x 15. This is 675 hours per semester. Let's say it is just a 45 semester credit *certificate or about 3 terms*: 675 x 3 = *2025 hours*. Different weight may be given for lab but this is the general lay out for the college system. 

Quarter credits can also be easily translated with a little math.

Again, educational credit hours are a universal language spoken by educators throughout the world with the degree being a common thread.


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## VentMedic (Oct 28, 2008)

I had to double check the semester credit hour eqivalents for clinicals.

A *3 semester credit hour clinical class is 16 hours/week* for 16 weeks. (oops I used 15 weeks in my calculations in the above post to simpify my math)

So, that is *256 pt contact HOURS* in addition to whatever other classes. 

example:
http://www.broward.edu/outlines/RET1832L.pdf

I apologize for using RT but the clinical hours also translate for the EMS classes.


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## Sapphyre (Oct 28, 2008)

I'd kept out of this til now.  Where I'm planning to go is 49.5 semester units for the certificate, plus ACLS, PHTLS, PALS, PEPP and NRP.  I will complete the general ed requirements for the associates while I'm getting my field experience.


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## VentMedic (Oct 28, 2008)

Sapphyre said:


> I'd kept out of this til now. Where I'm planning to go is *49.5 semester units* for the certificate, plus ACLS, PHTLS, PALS, PEPP and NRP. I will complete the general ed requirements for the associates while I'm getting my field experience.


 
Yes!! Excellent!!  That's what I'm talking about!

That actually speaks volumes in the world of academics and professionals.


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## Foxbat (Oct 28, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> Not even close.
> 
> Each credit hour corresponds to 50 minutes of lecture per week with an associated typical weekly out-of-class workload of 2-3 hours. For example, a 3 credit hour class would have a total of 150 minutes of lecture per week with 6-9 hours of out of class work.



By weekly out of class workload do you mean self-study and homework or labs? In my university labs aren't included into credit hours; so a class of 3 hours of lecture + 3 hours of lab a week is still 3 credits.


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## VentMedic (Oct 28, 2008)

Foxbat said:


> By weekly out of class workload do you mean self-study and homework or labs? In my university labs aren't included into credit hours; so a class of 3 hours of lecture + 3 hours of lab a week is still 3 credits.


 


VentMedic said:


> Each credit hour corresponds to 50 minutes of lecture per week with an associated typical weekly out-of-class workload of 2-3 hours. For example, *a 3 credit hour class would have a total of 150 minutes of lecture per week with 6-9 hours of out of class work. *


 
Yes, that includes homework, assignments or whatever.  

Lab may be included as 1 semester credit hour which would be 3 hours/week.


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## EMT007 (Oct 29, 2008)

The program at the UCLA Daniel Freeman paramedic school is only 9 months. 3 months of lecture and classroom training, 3 months in the hospital, and 3 months field internship. They've got some of the highest pass rates for the national registry test in SoCal.


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## VentMedic (Oct 29, 2008)

Considering the passing score on the NREMT is only 70%, that shouldn't be too difficult.   Florida requires 80% on their State Exam. 

Passing the test is only one challenge.   The quality and application of the knowledge are the important parts of the education.


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## HotelCo (Oct 29, 2008)

HotelCo said:


> Ours are a year - year and a quarter long. with 660 hours of clinical time.



I probably should say that we only attend school one day a week for 12 hours. (2 of those are for meals) so really only 10 hours.

9AM - 12PM: Test, lecture.

12PM- 1PM: Lunch.

1PM - 5PM: Lecture.

5PM - 6PM: Dinner.

6PM - 9PM: Practicals.


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## stephenrb81 (Oct 29, 2008)

Ours is 13 months *plus* the pre-req A&P and Med Math courses.  Our clinicals run ~700hours plus a minimum amount of skills usage and contacts, more hours if you don't get the required skills and contacts in the 700. I'd have to look for the didactic/lab hour breakdown.


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## VentMedic (Oct 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted by *HotelCo*
> 
> 
> _Ours are *a year - year and a quarter long.* with 660 hours of clinical time._





HotelCo said:


> I probably should say that *we only attend school one day a week* for 12 hours. (2 of those are for meals) so really only 10 hours.


 
I'm not picking on you HotelCo.

But, this is a great example of why the total TIME means nothing if it is not associated with a degree or semester credits hours. 

You can stretch a 110 hour EMT-B course out to almost a year this way also and make it sound really long when it is not. 

For those in college, if you double up and take 24 semester credits for one term to finish your degree faster, people may look at you with awe because they have a standard reference to the amount of work that must be done per semester credit hour. If you say you finished a class measured by purely clock hours quicker by going a extra day or two per week, it doesn't hold the same weight.


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## marineman (Oct 30, 2008)

Our program is broken down into I believe 8 seperate classes with separate credits for each class. We do 18 credits per semester for 2 college semesters but 3 of those credits each semester are for our field and clinical work so the actual class is only 15 credits per semester or a standard college workload. We only go two days a week though for 8 1/2 hours each day (1/2 hour lunch so it's 8 hours of class). So to a normal college student I'm taking more credits per semester than they normally do but I only go to school for two 8 hour days in a week. Credits can be a misnomer just as much as the physical length of time.

This is another good reason for the school accreditation because I'd rather spend 1/2 the time in a well taught class with a knowledgeable instructor that can cover all of the info and help us understand it in that time than spend twice the number of hours in a poorly taught disorganized class that is scrambling at the end to make sure everything has been covered much less understood.

I'm not saying that my course is perfect and if I knew before I started what I know now I would have changed and taken all of the other courses for the associates before starting the cert courses but it's hindsight and all we can do is push forward for changes in the educational process so things improve in the future.


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## nick (Nov 11, 2008)

Paramedic Program at UMBC in Maryland is a 4 year bachelor's degree program. They have two "tracks", a clinical paramedic track and a management track.

They also offer a masters program in emergency health services as well as the CCEMT-P program.


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## fortsmithman (Nov 11, 2008)

I think all paramedic programs should be a 4 yr bachelors degree.


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## KEVD18 (Nov 11, 2008)

fortsmithman said:


> I think all paramedic programs should be a 4 yr bachelors degree.



that would be great in the abstract, but(at least in my area) you're never going to see pay commensurate with education.

the average starting pay for a medic in ma is $16/hr for the private services(which out number municipals by a huge margin). plus, getting a civil service job in ma is damn near impossible along any sort of reasonable time line unless you are the perfect civil service candidate(not to offend anybody, but the perfect civil service candidate is the disabled veteran minority female). unless you've got at least one of those "qualifications"(the more the merrier), its going to be an uphill battle the whole way. i don't know one single person that would rack up 80k+ in education costs for a 30k/year job that they might have to wait 8 years or better to get.

unfortunately, that's the vicious circle we find ourselves in. you cant get more pay without more education, but you cant afford to get the education on the pay you get. sure, there are some people that can afford to take four years out of life to go to school full time to get their medic. i'm certainly not one of them. 

and even if you can afford it, it will be a cold day in hell before a massachusetts private ambulance service pays a field level medic 30+/hr. just not going to happen. i know of one service where the 20yr paramedics pay(meaning they have worked for that company for 20 consecutive years) is less than the day one starting pay for a municipal basic emt.

sure, in abstract thought, it would be great to have everybody trained to the highest level possible. but the system just cant support it.


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## Ridryder911 (Nov 11, 2008)

Do you think *NOT* having the education will get you a pay raise as well?


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## KEVD18 (Nov 11, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> Do you think *NOT* having the education will get you a pay raise as well?



as i sadi before, its a circular argument. i dont know many who can afford a full tilt education to make peanuts. and i dont know many companies that will pay you the wages necessary to legitimize getting that education. round and round we go. something has to give or we're going to continue to turn out undereducated providers until the end of time.


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## VentMedic (Nov 11, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> as i sadi before, its a circular argument. i dont know many who can afford a full tilt education to make peanuts. and i dont know many companies that will pay you the wages necessary to legitimize getting that education. round and round we go. something has to give or we're going to continue to turn out undereducated providers until the end of time.


 
You could ask any of the other healthcare professionals who have gone from OJT - Certificate - Associates - Bachelors - Masters - Doctorate and see how well the reimbursement agencies have recognized "Professional" status and how well the pay raises have reflected. You can include nurses in that group also although reimbursement is under a different category. The professional status achieved by advancing to degree from diploma definitely helped their wages.


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## KEVD18 (Nov 11, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> You could ask any of the other healthcare professionals who have gone from OJT - Certificate - Associates - Bachelors - Masters - Doctorate and see how well the reimbursement agencies have recognized "Professional" status and how well the pay raises have reflected. You can include nurses in that group also although reimbursement is under a different category. The professional status achieved by advancing to degree from diploma definitely helped their wages.



yes, that is very very true. i dont need to do much research into that, both of my parents are rn's, one associates and one bsn. 

but ems is a different animal. until there is significant govenrment regulation requiring that level of education for ems providers(canada comes to mind), it will never change. until someone is required by law to attain that level of training(minimum two year degree etc), the ambulance companies will never be required to compensate them appropriatley.

im certainly not advocating against education. not at all. all im saying is that its going to take a whole lot more than a few people who get the degree to change the circumstances.


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## Ridryder911 (Nov 11, 2008)

The main point is EMS should not be a different animal. It should be alike any other health care provider. 

When reviewing the pay structures of EMS payers (i.e. Medicare, BC/BS, Aetna) one needs to review why aeromedical care was able to receive a large differential in payment structures than ground services. 

Unfortunately, the primary reason was not due to the expenditure of aircraft, etc. It was due to the ability to respond to Medicare's request of why the reason for increase in payments. The primary reason was they had to have qualified staff. In other words, not just a "warm body". 

Where as American Ambulance Association (yep, AAA) reputed the decision, they themselves could not justify the same requirement. As there is plenty of EMT's (actually an over abundance) and yes, some shortage of Paramedics but not in crisis mode and they do not require those to be specialized. 

So we are shooting ourselves in the foot. Nothing will change until we change the payment structure, payment structure will not change until education and so on...

R/ r 911


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