# Four year degree



## fortsmithman (Mar 22, 2009)

Do you think think that paramedic programs should be 4 year a bachelor degree. 

Personally I'm leaning towards that opinion since most RN programs and other health programs are getting to be 4 year degree programs.


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## fortsmithman (Mar 22, 2009)

I made a boo boo.  the second choice should be no.  My browser filled in the not issued instead of no.  Could a mod or cl fix it please.  Or do I have to create a new thread.


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## firecoins (Mar 22, 2009)

I wish my medic class had been tied in with bachelor's.  There are so many classes I want to take now.


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## fortsmithman (Mar 22, 2009)

This is my plan I lan on getting my EMR then EMT either at Portage College or AHASTI then going for my paramedic program at Medicine Hat College which has a four year bachelor's degree.  Even though after i do the EMT the other programs in Alberta are 2 yr paramedic programs personally I fell 2 yrs is too short and to have it at 4 yrs.


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## TransportJockey (Mar 22, 2009)

I think yes. A BS should be the absolute least required for Paramedic. EMT-B should be at least an AAS


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## medicdan (Mar 23, 2009)

Do you think medic should require a BS as a pre-req, or be a BS program itself?


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## firecoins (Mar 23, 2009)

emt.dan said:


> Do you think medic should require a BS as a pre-req, or be a BS program itself?



are you saying a Master's level paramedic program?  May not be a bad idea.

I support a B.S or B.P.S for paramedic.


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## MMiz (Mar 23, 2009)

Poll fixed.


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## fortsmithman (Mar 23, 2009)

emt.dan said:


> Do you think medic should require a BS as a pre-req, or be a BS program itself?


There is already a program that requires a BSc as a pre-req it's called medical school.


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## firecoins (Mar 23, 2009)

fortsmithman said:


> There is already a program that requires a BSc as a pre-req it's called medical school.



Also Advanced Practise Nurses and an ever growing number of PA schools require a Bachelor's as a pre req.


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## spisco85 (Mar 23, 2009)

I think it would be a great idea and in turn would not only produce better paramedics but would force EMS to be EMS only and not dual role firefighters. It would also produce a pay raise I'd hope.


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## fortsmithman (Mar 23, 2009)

spisco85 said:


> I think it would be a great idea and in turn would not only produce better paramedics but would force EMS to be EMS only and not dual role firefighters. It would also produce a pay raise I'd hope.



There is one thing that is true in a majority of jobs not just EMS.  The more education you have that is related to your job the more money you will be making.


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## jochi1543 (Mar 24, 2009)

Yes...after all, those zero-to-hero programs (EMR---->paramedic) end up taking 3 years, anyway. Why not make it a bit more in-depth and turn it into a 4-year BSc?


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## fortsmithman (Mar 25, 2009)

The zero to hero program at Medicine Hat College is a 4 yr bachelors program.  The degree is a Bachelor of Applied Health Science (Paramedic) .


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## BenKen0bee (Mar 25, 2009)

fortsmithman said:


> There is already a program that requires a BSc as a pre-req it's called medical school.



Negative.  Although many applied, one of my friends got in after just two years of university without any kind of degree.  One could major in a Native Studies bachelor program and still apply for med school.  When it comes down to it, the pre-reqs guidelines for med are just courses that are focused in the BSc stream.

There have been rumors of a Masters program directed at graduated Paramedics and Nurses for Alberta.  I believe it's Physician Assistant, meant to supplement the dwindling number of doctors.


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## jochi1543 (Mar 25, 2009)

fortsmithman said:


> The zero to hero program at Medicine Hat College is a 4 yr bachelors program.  The degree is a Bachelor of Applied Health Science (Paramedic) .



??? Got a dude at my job who just finished it and he said it was 3 years.


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## gicts (Mar 25, 2009)

if it did became the national standard, do you believe the pay rate would begin to rise?


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## BEorP (Mar 25, 2009)

gicts said:


> if it did became the national standard, do you believe the pay rate would begin to rise?



Yes.......


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## spisco85 (Mar 25, 2009)

gicts said:


> if it did became the national standard, do you believe the pay rate would begin to rise?



It would of course because less people would be willing to go to school to get that degree.


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## gicts (Mar 25, 2009)

spisco85 said:


> It would of course because less people would be willing to go to school to get that degree.



fair enough


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## emtsteve87 (Mar 25, 2009)

Currently, I am almost done with my AAS Paramedic education and in the fall will be continuing my work to obtain my BS in Emergency Medicine. With this option I will have my paramedic degree and then a continued emergency medicine degree which focuses on the other aspects of our profession: management, legislation, policy and protocol work, as well as more in depth looks at patient care.  Would I have liked it better if the paramedic degree was a bachelor's level: yes. It would make prehospital medicine a true health care profession in the eyes of everyone and not so much the :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: child of fire supression.


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## spisco85 (Mar 25, 2009)

I'm curious to why some people voted no. Anyone want to share their feelings? And I don't mean in a hug circle singing kumbya


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## DrankTheKoolaid (Mar 25, 2009)

*re*

I voted no and ill tell you why.  For those that believe all new medic programs should be at the BS level, who do you think is going to hire these people and pay higher wages?  

    As much as I detest the business side of EMS, it is a reality.  And with healthcare costs skyrocketing and with no increase in accounts receivable where is the money going to come from.  

    The reality of it being who in there right mind is going to pay more for a higher educated Paramedic, when you can hire a lower educated paramedic for a MUCH lower wage.  Until every currently licensed paramedic upgrades to BS level there will always be just "medics" that will do the exact same jobs for lower pay.  Especially if there is no expanded scope of practice for the higher educated medics.

    Now on the other hand, I totally think the more educated any health care professional is the better.  I originally was planning on becoming an RN and completed all my pre-requisite work and applied.  2 months ago after being on the wait list here in california for 3.5 years, i turned down the program when my number came up.  Like the T-Shirt say "why be an RN when i can just think for myself and not have to ask for permission for something i can do on my own".  Still, i will continue my studies with anything and everything having to do with patient care and hopefully someday actually have the time to complete my BS in physiology.  

    Until EMS has a strong lobby at the Washington level we will always be the redheaded :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: children of medicine.  And i don't believe just because we have policed our own and required higher education is this going to increase reimbursement from insurance companies or federal/state programs IE: medicare/medical.  And i would challenge ANYONE to come up with documented information to the contrary of this.


Corky


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## Veneficus (Mar 25, 2009)

why do we insist on debating this endless loop?


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## VentMedic (Mar 25, 2009)

It seems like the majority on this thread were talking about the Canadian Paramedic education, which at 3 years is not far from a 4 year degree.   In the U.S., a year is too long for some Paramedic students.


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## VentMedic (Mar 25, 2009)

Corky said:


> The reality of it being who in there right mind is going to pay more for a higher educated Paramedic, when you can hire a lower educated paramedic for a MUCH lower wage. Until every currently licensed paramedic upgrades to BS level there will always be just "medics" that will do the exact same jobs for lower pay. Especially if there is no expanded scope of practice for the higher educated medics.


 
And how do you know there wouldn't be an expanded scope of practice?
Right now those in the *U.S.* are limited by their weakest link; the 3 month wonders. 

The employers for the other professions just started requiring higher education until eventually it was expected. Then, it was no big deal to switch to the higher standard for entry level licensure and the reimbursement followed.




Corky said:


> Now on the other hand, I totally think the more educated any health care professional is the better. I originally was planning on becoming an RN and completed all my pre-requisite work and applied. 2 months ago after being on the wait list here in california for 3.5 years, i turned down the program when my number came up. Like the T-Shirt say "why be an RN when i can just think for myself and not have to ask for permission for *something i can do on my own".* Still, i will continue my studies with anything and everything having to do with patient care and hopefully someday actually have the time to complete my BS in physiology.


 
You didn't research the nursing professsion very well especially with having over 3 years to do so. I wonder why all those MICNs have to be on CCT trucks in California? I wonder why even the 12-lead ECG is not done on very many ALS trucks. Why do some CA Paramedics have to go to the nearest facility with chest pain so the ED can do a 12-lead, do a STEMI activation, hang the meds and put an ED RN on the truck to continue a mile down the road to a cath lab? Or, call a CCT with an RN? 

At this time, Paramedics are not independent practitioners. You still have a medical director who gives you the protocols and guidelines to practice under. And, in California, that is not a lot. 



Corky said:


> Until EMS has a strong lobby at the Washington level we will always be the redheaded :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: children of medicine. And i don't believe just because we have policed our own and required higher education is this going to increase reimbursement from insurance companies or federal/state programs IE: medicare/medical. And i would challenge *ANYONE to come up with documented information to the contrary of this.*
> 
> A great website you should familiarize yourself with:
> http://www.cms.hhs.gov/
> ...


 
*Respiratory Therapists: *
Passed the 2 years degree standard nationally and now petitioning for increased reimbursement at the Bachelor's and Master's level in other opportunities. Still a very young profession with licensure just a little over 20 y/o in some states. 

www.aarc.org

http://capwiz.com/aarc/home/

*Physical Therapists:*
http://www.apta.org/

http://www.apta.org/AM/Template.cfm...ggedPageDisplay.cfm&TPLID=181&ContentID=26507


> The median salary for a physical therapist is *$75,000* depending on position, years of experience, *degree of education*, geographic location, and practice setting.


http://www.apta.org/AM/Template.cfm...&TEMPLATE=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&CONTENTID=33205



> The minimum educational requirement is a post-baccalaureate degree from an accredited education program. While some programs offer a master's degree, a growing majority of programs offer the Doctor of Physical Therapy (DPT) degree. Currently, 199 colleges and universities nationwide offer accredited professional physical therapist education programs; 92% offer the DPT and the remaining programs are planning to convert.


 
*Speech Therapists:*
Requires a Bachelor's or Master's degree.

http://www.asha.org/default.htm

*Occupational Therapists:*
http://www.aota.org/

*Radiologic Technologists:*
https://www.asrt.org/

http://www.asha.org/about/pathway/

http://www.asha.org/about/Legislation-Advocacy/

http://www.asha.org/NR/rdonlyres/3C12C2A6-B484-4878-89C7-D44DB76EC1BD/0/ComparisonReqwithNBPTS.pdf

*Medical Technologists:*
http://www.amt1.com/

Bachelor's degree required.

*Massage Therapists:*
They have even moved into the hospitals due to their reimbursement now that they have raised their education requirements and achieved licensure in many states. In the colleges they even require the real college level A&P classes while many EMS programs do not. The general overview class is still good enough for the Paramedic.
http://www.amtamassage.org/

There are several other examples and if you had done you homework for nursing, you would have seen the opportunites that also.


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## VentMedic (Mar 25, 2009)

To continue: 

Why have NPs and PAs increased their education levels to Master's and Doctorate degrees? 

They seem to be striving to show their worth which gets recognition in Washington D.C.

American Academy for NPs:
http://www.aanp.org/AANPCMS2

Pediatric NPs
http://www.napnap.org/index.aspx

California NPs:
http://www.canpweb.org/

Physician Assistants:
http://www.aapa.org/

Emergency Medicine Physician Assistants
http://www.sempa.org/

There is also another difference in the approach of all the medical professions I have mentioned. They include what their increased education can do *for the patient* and not just their paycheck. That makes it easier for legislators to make their decisions when it is not just a selfish self serving request.


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## VentMedic (Mar 25, 2009)

My apologies  for side tracking this tread to the Canadians who were discussing the 4 year degree at a serious level.


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## Ridryder911 (Mar 25, 2009)

Corky said:


> I voted no and ill tell you why.  For those that believe all new medic programs should be at the BS level, who do you think is going to hire these people and pay higher wages?
> 
> As much as I detest the business side of EMS, it is a reality.  And with healthcare costs skyrocketing and with no increase in accounts receivable where is the money going to come from.
> 
> ...



You appear ignorant upon the health industry and especially nursing. Really, what are you going to do with a minor in physiology, when even to teach such usually requires a graduate or PhD? Yeah its your choice. Personally, I don't have to ask to do anything as RN any more than I do as a Paramedic, and yes I have standing orders on both. It's the same for both profession. 

Right now I am preparing to discuss a 4 year program for EMS associating with a Medical School. One completes the Paramedic in 2 yrs with additional education and focusing either upon three divisions. Administration, Education or as a Paramedic Practitioner. 

With EMS being a business we need educated Paramedics that have an understanding of the  business. With accreditation, we need truly educators not instructors, and yes one could complete pre-med with emphasis upon being upon advanced assessment and broaden treatment as an Advanced Paramedic. Such programs are being piloted and performed now in some states, and yes insurance payers much rather pay a $500 bill than a $3000 ER bill. Limited, maybe but not all patients need to be an ER. Again law of physics of the cheaper version wins. With the pre-med the person can have the option of medical school or P.A. tract. All areas can continue to graduate or further. 

Who is going to pay for a 4 year? Simple. Those that realize that a 4 yr educated Paramedic brings in twice as much money to their EMS in just half of the time. Medicare will gladly reimburse for a quarter of the costs of a transport and ER visit. As well this will decrease admissions or unecessary trips to the ER. No wear or tear on EMS units, single personal, low maintenance with high percentage of reimbursement ratios. Again, Medicare, BC/BS much rather pay for a single visit than an EMS unit, ER and then an EMS return for a simple skin tear or head lacc. Even with the increasing technology cardiac will be tx differently. For example, I replaced a foley cath instead of transporting.. Medicare was delighted to recieve a $200 bill instead of a $800 EMS bill and another $1000 ER bill. Simple logistics..  

Sure many maybe considered as home visits, even scheduled but guaranteed money is better than running ambulance on gang bangers that have no money or insurance coverage in a financial reality. 

It's not if.. its just when . Again, it is already here and being tried with success.. AAA already has been working with Medicare for years for consultation fees. Again, something that those within the higher ups have been discussing for a long time. Ambulance jocks can continue making lights and sirens, picking up non-insured MVC's and stabbings.. or one could be performing XII lead diagnostic, lab draws, F/U for PCP's and be working an 8 hour shift with twice the money. 

You want documentation. That's easy check out AAA reimbursement request in comparison to those of flight services. Wonder why, HEMS was given four times reimbursement? Simple.. Professional services requires professional personnel.. something ground units does not require. 

There are lots of info on research.. just lit research it. 

R/r911


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## reaper (Mar 25, 2009)

I would love to see a 4 year degree in EMS as a standard. But, lets work toward getting the 2 year degree as a standard, first! Then we can work up to a 4 year degree. Basically the same way all other health care professions have taken the step up. One step at a time!


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## Ridryder911 (Mar 25, 2009)

reaper said:


> I would love to see a 4 year degree in EMS as a standard. But, lets work toward getting the 2 year degree as a standard, first! Then we can work up to a 4 year degree. Basically the same way all other health care professions have taken the step up. One step at a time!




Discussing this with some really informed educators and high ranking dignitaries, this is almost a done thing. Within five years, Associate will be the Paramedic level. Even states that have "Cookie Cutter" programs will be falling and joining on the band-wagon.

The reason is simple. Economics. I know of states that attempt to have their own tests; only to realize it is not economically feasible. Yeah.. even those we might have discussed here previously.. (can't say anymore). It costs literally hundreds of thousands of dollars for continuous validation and upkeep. Litigation against improper testing measures, poor test upkeep and development as well as litigation if not demonstrating safety to public. Again, it is the money that will change and convince others to follow as others has done... 
"If its free, why should we have to pay for one?".

So accreditation will be required, sure one does not have to be directly associated with a college; but it will be hard not to be an academic institution. As most have partnered with colleges for transfer of credits. 

R/r 911


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## DrankTheKoolaid (Mar 25, 2009)

*re*

sorry if forrnatting is off.  typing on my moto q


I think you miss understand my point ventmedic.  I totally support higher education for prehospital providers and i feel anyone that doesnt strive to become a better, more competent patient provider should not be doing this.  Unforunately after 17 years of EMS work i fully understand the business side of it and thats why i stick behind my opinions of what would happen.  Your right though in alot of areas CCT-rn are required.  Fortunately my area is not one of them  While i am MICP i am also CCT-P with my own protocols for transfering cardiac patient on NTG, potassium, heparin etc etc.  And as for doing this for the money, if that was the case i would have been out of EMS long ago and been working in networking or some other comp job.  I work in EMS as i love taking care of patients and thankfully my wife does well enough that i can remain  doing the work i love instead of work that would make alot more money ( though i would have probably shot myself by now if stuck in a cubicle for half my life ).  Yeah RT and alot of other providers have gathered and have been successful in gaining recognition.  EMS hasnt........ and thats my whole point.    Until we come together as a whole and lobby for the recogniton of the work/education we do/have nothing will change.  And unfortunetly with the state of the national debt and recession i honestly dont see a change on the horizon.   While groups like the NREMT are striving to change the way EMS is looked upon, until there is a greater voice speaking in our favor at the national level i just dont see anything changing.  


Corky


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## VentMedic (Mar 25, 2009)

Corky said:


> Your right though in alot of areas CCT-rn are required. Fortunately my area is not one of them While i am MICP i am also CCT-P with my own protocols for transfering cardiac patient on NTG, potassium, heparin etc etc.
> Corky


 
Read Rid's post for advancement news.  There is hope.

I hope you are not bragging about the CCT-P "expanded scope" for California. Those protocols are what regular ground Paramedics can do in many states for just ALS transport.


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## firecoins (Mar 25, 2009)

I transport patients on heparin and other drips all the time and have no "expanded" scope of practise.  I lack any sort of CC education.  It is what IFT medics do all the time in NY.


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## DrankTheKoolaid (Mar 25, 2009)

*re*

no i was replying to ventmedics statement about having to use CCT-RN for stuff like that in california.  Just pointing out that its not like that in all of california.  Especially in the rural area i work we dont have the luxury of transport teams.  We pull 911 duty and xfer duty during our 72 hour shifts


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## VentMedic (Mar 25, 2009)

Corky said:


> no i was replying to ventmedics statement about having to use CCT-RN for stuff like that in california. Just pointing out that its not like that in all of california. Especially in the rural area i work we dont have the luxury of transport teams. We pull 911 duty and xfer duty during our 72 hour shifts


 
But, the RNs are still probably used even in your area since that expanded scope is extremely limited.   You may also have flight teams that serve your area with RNs on board.    I know Specialty teams do respond to the hospitals in some of these areas for peds, neo and some cardiac that require specialized equipment.


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## DrankTheKoolaid (Mar 26, 2009)

*re*

oh absolutely.  I love our flight crews and dont discount anything they do.  If it wasnt for them alot of our residents wouldnt still be alive and here today.  

Another thing about requiring higher degrees to work as a paramedic.  What will happen to the people that work as volunteer paramedics? i know it's a small percentage but in my county which is very large square miles wise, a quarter of the most rural/frontier areas are covered by strictly voluteer paramedics.  What will happen to the area residents when they will no longer be able to have ALS responders because they cant afford or dont have the time to seek out a BS. 

  But then again if we were to get a greater scope of practice (granted our state and local medical directors allowed this)  maybe the current paramedics that are not able to upgrade would be able to continue with the current scope.

Corky


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## VentMedic (Mar 26, 2009)

Corky said:


> oh absolutely. I love our flight crews and dont discount anything they do. If it wasnt for them alot of our residents wouldnt still be alive and here today.
> 
> Another thing about requiring higher degrees to work as a paramedic. What will happen to the people that work as volunteer paramedics? i know it's a small percentage but in my county which is very large square miles wise, a quarter of the most rural/frontier areas are covered by strictly voluteer paramedics. What will happen to the area residents when they will no longer be able to have ALS responders because they cant afford or dont have the time to seek out a BS.
> 
> ...


 
As Reaper stated, the 2 year degree should be obtainable first. That should be the standard entry level for the Paramedic regardless of whether you are paid, volunteer, private or FD. No other health care profession lowers their entry level certing requirement based on a volunteer or paid status. 

Currently licensed Paramedics would probably be grandfathered. 

The Bachelor's degree is a little ambitious across the board for the U.S. especially in Fire based EMS states or the areas that depend on volunteers. At this time, only the state of Oregon requires a two year degree and Texas recognizes it. 

At this time I haven't seen a rally to beef up the programs at the community colleges toward a degree although many do offer a degree in EMS. Actually, some FDs and private EMS companies have broken off from the colleges to start their own EMS academies to train their own. This was a trend I had thought would die away but it doesn't seem to.


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## DrankTheKoolaid (Mar 26, 2009)

*re*

lol  ems based fire you mean.  I know what you mean though.

corky


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