# EMT under investigation for alleged touching incident



## Epi-do (Nov 18, 2008)

I caught the tail end of this story on the news tonight.  I used to work for this company, but know nothing of this incident, except for what is being reported.

Full Story Here

Steve Jefferson/Eyewitness News

Speedway - A man who works for a living helping medical patients stands accused of taking advantage of one.

The sexual assault allegations involve a man who works at Care Ambulance Service. While the company is headquartered in Kentucky, they are garaged on Gasoline Alley in Speedway. 

A 31-year-old woman says a Care EMT worker touched her inappropriately as she rode in the back of an ambulance.

Read More Here


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## JPINFV (Nov 18, 2008)

Such a touching story.


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## Meursault (Nov 18, 2008)

Inappropriate touching while the patient was seizing? The PD trying to get DNA and prosecute with it?
Something about this story just rubs me the wrong way.


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## phabib (Nov 18, 2008)

hm.... I don't know. I would have to be there to pass judgment. Would the patient be aware of what was happening while they were having a seizure? (At least enough to get someone fired?)

It's probably going to be decided based on his character. If everyone he works with testifies that he would never think of doing something like that, then he'll probably get off.


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## JPINFV (Nov 18, 2008)

MrConspiracy said:


> Inappropriate touching while the patient was seizing?



Just checking, inappropriate touching is a 5 yard penalty, right?


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## Sasha (Nov 19, 2008)

I doubt a seizing patient would be self aware enough to notice being touched while seizing.

Considering his hand SHOULD have been gloved, I wonder what kind of DNA they think they're going to get..


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## Meursault (Nov 19, 2008)

Okay, I'm done with the puns. Here's what I'm wondering:

1. She was seizing and he did touch her inappropriately. How did she notice?
2. She was not seizing and he did touch her inappropriately. Why is she claiming that she was seizing?
3. She was seizing and he did not (intentionally?) touch her inappropriately. Easy enough to see how that could have happened. Sucks for everyone, though.
4. She was not seizing and he did not touch her inappropriately. Why is she claiming both of those?

If I read that article right, the PD proposes to recover DNA that he left on her skin by touching her with a presumably gloved hand, days after the fact. How did anyone hear that statement without facepalming? In the meantime, he's out of work and in essence needs to prove a negative to get back. That strikes me as a bit unfair.


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## VentMedic (Nov 19, 2008)

There is more than one type of "inappropriate touching" and it doesn't have to be with a hand.


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## Meursault (Nov 19, 2008)

The article emphasized "touch DNA" as a separate and new technology. I don't think they'd be extolling the novel crime-fighting advantages of the rape kit.
Meh, it's all speculation at this point, and I doubt they'll run a followup article if charges are dropped.


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## Epi-do (Nov 19, 2008)

Keep in mind that the article does not mention what type of seizure the patient was having.  There are many different types, with just as many presentations and effects upon the patient's awareness.  I know everyone automatically thinks full body, tonic-clonic type seizures but what if she was actually having a focal (simple partial) seizure?  It is entirely possible to have this type of seizure and still be aware of what is going on around you.

I am not saying that the patient is or isn't making this up or that the tech did or didn't do something inappropriate.  What I am saying is that just like every other story reported by the media, there is plenty that we do not know about the situation.  I will try to continue to follow this story and let everyone know if I hear anything additional.

As far as the DNA goes, it sounds like she reported it as soon as she arrived at RHI, so the DNA sampling would have been done relatively soon after the event, not days later.  When it comes to gloves, I know plenty of people while I was working private services that are pretty lax about wearing them, so assuming he had them on doesn't necesarily mean that he did.


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## Gi.Josiah6201 (Nov 19, 2008)

*This just doesnt seem right*

If pt was having a seizure how would they know there was inappropriate touching. How could they test DNA from a gloved hand?


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## firecoins (Nov 19, 2008)

That assumes he was wearing gloves.


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## mycrofft (Nov 20, 2008)

*Pass the Doritos....crunch crunch*

Where's Jerry Springer when he's needed?

The larger question is how protected are you and what is your recourse when/if accused of this battery when you are alone with a pt? Good time to wonder why you don't have a union.


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## VentMedic (Nov 20, 2008)

mycrofft said:


> Good time to wonder why you don't have a union.


 
What makes you think a union will run interference with a police investigation or provide a criminal defense attorney?

Here is another case that is on trial now:
http://www.wickedlocal.com/boxborou...-for-Boxborough-EMT-accused-of-sexual-assault

*Trial starts for Boxborough EMT accused of sexual assault*

*By Christian Schiavone/Staff Writer*

*Wed Nov 19, 2008, 09:19 PM EST*




> Concord - The trial started Wednesday in the case of a Boxborough firefighter/EMT who is accused of sexually assaulting a woman in the back of the town’s ambulance on the way to the hospital.
> 
> Thomas E. Sherr, a 47-year-old Maynard resident, is charged with four counts of indecent assault and battery on a person aged 14 years or older for the alleged inappropriate touching a Stow woman’s genitals while transporting her from Acton to Emerson Hospital in Concord on July 21, 2007.
> 
> ...


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## mycrofft (Nov 20, 2008)

*Because your union considers you innocent until proven and retains lawyers.*

You pay them good money for that. If your union doesn't, fire it and certify another.

Your employer will rapidly fire you to distance itself from your actions ("How deplorable!") to avoid being deep-pocketed. Your union will defend you unless it thinks you did it and you are too hot to handle (say, one of the Bush twins is the complaintant). Your union may also carry your additional (probably your ONLY) malpractice insurance.

You know what, forget malpractice. Battery is a classic felony. Even if it is a con and the plaintiff decides she made enough money or the con is "wearing thin" (getting risky), the state attorney, the district attorney, etc., can still file felony charges and the con artist can be compelled to testify, truthfully or not, willingly or not. You fall for that felony, or word gets out you were brought to trial, and you can forget a lot of opportunities lost to innuendo. You darn well need to "lawyer-up" and quick, and the union shold be looking out for you by trying to save your job, then your neck.


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## aandjmayne (Nov 20, 2008)

how would someone seizing (even partial seizure) be coherent enough to realize what is happening? and another thing.. how many times during yalls transfers was fondling someone the first thing on your mind. I would think that would be the last thing on a tech's mind. especially if the patient is having a seizure. I would think that at least they would be trying to monitor the patient.. not fondle them.. whats up with that?? I think its a false accusation if you ask me.


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## rchristi (Nov 20, 2008)

Yes this may be a false accusation. However, in order to keep the public's trust, I think we have to make sure that the public sees that we take sexual misconduct seriously and that the profession will investigate thoroughly any allegations and take appropriate actions. Patients who call an ambulance already feel vulnerable enough without having to be concerned about this kind of behavior. At the same time I don't want to make providers scared to touch patients. Emergency medicine is hands on and touching and palpating are essential to a good assessment in many instances. Professional behavior and appropriate boundaries are our best protection against unfounded charges. This probably sounds like a sermon, but there are enough examples where organisations have not taken action or even actively covered up misconduct and are paying for that behavior. EMS doesn't need to fall into that pit.


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## aandjmayne (Nov 20, 2008)

I agree.. that was just my opinion on this one instance..  and I hope that through all appropriate actions taken it will prove to our patients/ future or present that they should not have to worry about this type of vulnerability. I hope that our patients should be able to trust us and not be afraid of calling when they need help. It would be a shame if because of an instance where one of the provider's misconduct would make them think twice about calling for help.


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## TheMowingMonk (Nov 20, 2008)

I think alot of what is needed is education to the public of what is and isnt appripriate for pre hospital care providers to due. Because most people have no idea what we can touch and have it be appropriate for proper pt care. I always make a point to explain to my pt whats im doing every time I have to touch them. But one of my friends recently got into something like this, he picked up a girl the crashed her bicycle over one of the gaurd rails over the side of the road, enroute to the hospital he was giving a secondary to her and she flipped when he was checking her ribs (bare in mind the was the lower ribs below the chest) she tried to accuse him of inappropriate touching, he was eventually cleared but she forgot to mention that he said to her he was going to check his ribs to make sure there were no injuries there, but it was still scary for him. but just suppose the point people need to know what we can and cant do or at least more of a point for prehospital providers to explain what they are doing while they do it (given the pt is coherent enough to listen)


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## WuLabsWuTecH (Nov 20, 2008)

The sad truth is that one accusation of this nature however false can ruin a person's reputation.

There are cases where the charged was not only found not guilty because the prosecution couldn't meet the burden of proof, but where the defense could actually PROVE that the accuser was not being truthful or at least that the defendant was innocent.  Unfortunately, even in these cases a person's reputation could take a while to recover.

I personally believe that these accusations should not be aired to the public until they are proven and that such behavior of airing these accusation sin public, if found false, should be criminal (similar to slander/libel but w/o the burden of proof that the person knowingly produced false statments) since even careless statements can cause so much harm.


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## WuLabsWuTecH (Nov 20, 2008)

I would even go as far to say that if the accuser did that one ofthe possible punishments should be restitution of lost wages during that time and possibly damages for reputation damage although no amount of money can repair someones reputation in a heartbeat.


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## Epi-do (Nov 20, 2008)

WuLabsWuTecH said:


> I would even go as far to say that if the accuser did that one ofthe possible punishments should be restitution of lost wages during that time and possibly damages for reputation damage although no amount of money can repair someones reputation in a heartbeat.



The only problem with this solution is that these would be more of a civil suit and the allegations against the EMT are a criminal case.  Therefore, the EMT would have to file a civil suit against the patient to receive any sort of damages as a result of the situation.


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## TheMowingMonk (Nov 20, 2008)

then I think they should, having your entire career ruined for someone making a false claim deserves some retribution (given they are found innocent and all that stuff) they should at least sue for lost wages while allogations were investigated, especially if the pt could not provide any proof to their story.


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## Sasha (Nov 20, 2008)

TheMowingMonk said:


> then I think they should, having your entire career ruined for someone making a false claim deserves some retribution (given they are found innocent and all that stuff) they should at least sue for lost wages while allogations were investigated, especially if the pt could not provide any proof to their story.



I don't see where his name was mentioned, maybe I'm just short bus and don't see it. I agree, the accused, upon being proven innocent, should recieve compensation for lost wages and the accuser should be found guilty of perjury. You would see a lot less of these kind of cases if the accuser started facing harsher punishments. 

I'm still unconvinced that a seizure patient with any kind of seizure, focal, petite mal, tonic clonic grand mal, could be self aware enough to realize they are being touched. And generally I only see "Seizing" to describe grand mal


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## TheMowingMonk (Nov 21, 2008)

Sasha said:


> I don't see where his name was mentioned, maybe I'm just short bus and don't see it. I agree, the accused, upon being proven innocent, should recieve compensation for lost wages and the accuser should be found guilty of perjury. You would see a lot less of these kind of cases if the accuser started facing harsher punishments.



His name Isn't mentioned in the article, but if a case like this is taken to court the accusation become public record that anyone can look up unless the judge orders it sealed till after the trial. which is what the judge should do I think in cases of possible smear like this could be


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## firecoins (Nov 21, 2008)

Sasha said:


> I don't see where his name was mentioned, maybe I'm just short bus and don't see it.



I am sure all his coworkers know and word spreads.

I do not believe anything written in the press.  It usually has everything wrong.


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## Brooks416 (Nov 21, 2008)

*Conversation*

This is where talking to the patient and explaining every step you are taking and why on the physical exam, if patient is alert, is a basic must.


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## WuLabsWuTecH (Nov 21, 2008)

TheMowingMonk said:


> His name Isn't mentioned in the article, but if a case like this is taken to court the accusation become public record that anyone can look up unless the judge orders it sealed till after the trial. which is what the judge should do I think in cases of possible smear like this could be



like firecoins said, the EMS community isn't that big, people in his area most likely know his name


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