# Faith / Is there a place for God in EMS?



## MariaCatEMT

*The only reason I posted this was because of the other thread about religion in EMS.....and I am not saying yea or nay, this is just an FYI.

Is there a place for God in EMS?

More than half of the medical schools in the country now offer courses in spirituality and medicine—up from just three a decade ago. The reason? Patients are demanding that doctors address not only their physical needs, but their emotional needs, as well. Since 9/11, medics and firefighters also seem more spiritually minded, according to Fellowship of Christian Firefighters President Gaius Reynolds. Some are even suggesting that there should be a place for God on the emergency scene. 

Read more here...
*


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## Stevo

sure....on the dashboard, but i think i'd face Him to traffic , sure fire way to make the lights...






~S~


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## Ridryder911

Part of the problem in EMS is immaturity. We are so similar to physicians in our thinking of deity, our way is the only way. We also are foolish, because at least physicians can use or have their excuse of using intellectual scientific knowledge. 

What we in EMS have not figured out is that we are there for the patients ... not that the patients are there for us. 

It disappoints me and discourages to see posts and comments on how EMT's feel so pompous on not meeting the demand of the patients. Especially these are the same folks that their only medical training was a 2 night a week class, for less than 2 years in length, and has never worked in a hospital or any exposure is only the 1 hr patient contact they had. How pompous.!...

We need to awake and see what the patients expect from us as well... yes, meet the physical needs, but statistics has shown in EMS >85% is not medical related. So that only leaves us 15% to do what was taught to us, and the 85% is what we should had been taught and never was. Hmm.. maybe, this is why so many leave the field. Expectations ..unrealistic?

Meeting, the patients emotional land spiritual ability is just important if not even more so... it took me years to figure this out, hopefully other will not take as long. The patient psyche has to be in tuned for the acceptance of healing, and part of that as well is trust... and part of that is being able to treat the patient holistically (all of the needs). 

Yes, we will see more because the patients will demand more.. as well, what we have been providing for our own personnel has not been working. CISD has been proven to be a farce, and non helpful, if not potentially harmful. So we need to discover other avenues to keep our own sanity. 

R/r 911


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## rescuecpt

Maybe a push to include some psychological first aid training either in the basic EMT class or as a CME would help.  A lot of people are just not born with a good bedside manner and/or a true sense of compassion.


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## Kendall

I totally agree with that. In my service (which is set up 'differently' than others) has a pastor/minister/priest, whichever you want to call him, on staff. They are there for spiritual guidance and training - particularly for developing holistic tratment practices. I think this is very important to those patients whom are religious is some way and seek support religiously while responders are treating them.

I think CISM/CISD should be changed to include religion - depending on the responder, of course. Although, there is a problem with those who have conflicting faiths or those who choose to be aetheists. CISM protocols should be made on an individual basis - for each responder, that way no one is forching religion/faith on anyone.


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## Stevo

> It disappoints me and discourages to see posts and comments on how EMT's feel so pompous on not meeting the demand of the patients. Especially these are the same folks that their only medical training was a 2 night a week class, for less than 2 years in length, and has never worked in a hospital or any exposure is only the 1 hr patient contact they had. How pompous.!...



ah yes, they should all be shunned , flogged, and made to wear pointy hats on any calls RR/911, after all it takes years of following priests around administering last rights in hospitals to even come close to the level of theological compassion a college grad ems'er might have

all that late night frat training and all....



> statistics has shown in EMS >85% is not medical related.



really? got link ?

now i may be going out on a limb here, but aren't you the one who advocated higher education across the ems board in the other thread RR ?




> CISD has been proven to be a farce, and non helpful, if not potentially harmful.



and that has what to do with diety/patient needs?

~S~


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## Anomalous

Stevo said:
			
		

> sure....on the dashboard, but i think i'd face Him to traffic , sure fire way to make the lights...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ~S~




http://www.mcphee.com/categories/christianity.html

Stevo... In case you can't find one, or prefer the bobble-head version.


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## Stevo

I'd like a bobble headed one that sorta nods yes to everything Anomalous 

great for all those deathbed christians, don't you think?

~S~


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## Luno

*God in EMS?  Absolutely!!!!*

Is there a place for God in EMS, without a doubt, but here's where it gets sticky, it may or may not be yours.  If the patient wants to pray to Allah, Buddha, Vishnu, a saint, the virgin mother, even the DEVIL, and it brings them comfort, there is a place for it.  If you do not agree with your patient's choice, that's the time to sacrifice your personal opinion for your patient's well being and comfort.  You have a place in their life to provide life sustaining treatment, not to convert them.  Personally, I believe that my religion and my treatment of the patients do not mix, I'm there to provide them comfort, if I have to bow my head while they incant the 7th layer of hell, but it brings them comfort, I can attone later, but they are my only priority at that time.  If they share my personal beliefs, which are scattered at best, then all the better, but their life and comfort are my priorities, not inflicting my personal beliefs on them.


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## MariaCatEMT

Luno said:
			
		

> Is there a place for God in EMS, without a doubt, but here's where it gets sticky, it may or may not be yours.  If the patient wants to pray to Allah, Buddha, Vishnu, a saint, the virgin mother, even the DEVIL, and it brings them comfort, there is a place for it.  If you do not agree with your patient's choice, that's the time to sacrifice your personal opinion for your patient's well being and comfort.  You have a place in their life to provide life sustaining treatment, not to convert them.  Personally, I believe that my religion and my treatment of the patients do not mix, I'm there to provide them comfort, if I have to bow my head while they incant the 7th layer of hell, but it brings them comfort, I can attone later, but they are my only priority at that time.  If they share my personal beliefs, which are scattered at best, then all the better, but their life and comfort are my priorities, not inflicting my personal beliefs on them.



*Well said!*


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## NYCWatchdog

That depends on how you view God.

Is he all knowing?  Does he truly call his "children" home?  When it is your time is it your time no matter what?

If that is true... than why do we respond to cardiac arrests?  Why do we insert tubes down throats, inject drugs, and perform compressions if that is against God's will.  Then we would be sinning against him.

For those who will say, well God wants us to do these things and the people we bring back weren't meant to go yet... then that means that the outcome was predicted and the concept of free will is gone.

Is there room for God in EMS?  In my opinion, no.  Let the believers believe, let the non-believers not believe, and I'll just hit the button and go where the dispatcher sends me.


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## fm_emt

NYCWatchdog said:
			
		

> Is there room for God in EMS?  In my opinion, no.  Let the believers believe, let the non-believers not believe, and I'll just hit the button and go where the
> dispatcher sends me.



I'm inclined to agree with that statement. Especially around here, we have to remain neutral. We have many cultures around here, some of which would like to wipe every Christian off the face of the planet. 

But they are still our patients, and we have to treat them the same as we would anybody else. 

I'm fairly agnostic. Maybe it came from growing up in a foreign country (I spent my school years in Japan at an international/UN school) and being around all kinds of religions and cultures. I learned a bit about many of them, but didn't really find myself following any of them. I tried to remain neutral and respectful of all cultures & religions.

Here's an example. An event we worked recently was a huge Indian powwow. Over 50 different tribes from all over the country. Thousands of people were there. A couple of the patients we had (and boy, did we end up busy!) had the tribal medicine man come over. He understood that we had our job to do, and he was more than happy to let us do our work. He also went ahead and did his thing, which consisted of a few chants and spreading some herbs on the ground. When he was finished, I just asked him "That was very interesting. What does it mean?" and he told me about the chants and how it was a way to communicate with the spirits. It was actually interesting. I didn't have my own views of religion clouding up my head, and I didn't preach to the guy. I just tried to learn a bit about his culture and beliefs. 
Overall, it worked out pretty well. I learned something, and the patient (and the medicine man) appreciated the fact that I was there with them and showed some interest in their way of life.

Happy patients are a good thing.


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## Jon

fm_emt said:
			
		

> I'm inclined to agree with that statement. Especially around here, we have to remain neutral. We have many cultures around here, some of which would like to wipe every Christian off the face of the planet.
> 
> But they are still our patients, and we have to treat them the same as we would anybody else.
> 
> I'm fairly agnostic. Maybe it came from growing up in a foreign country (I spent my school years in Japan at an international/UN school) and being around all kinds of religions and cultures. I learned a bit about many of them, but didn't really find myself following any of them. I tried to remain neutral and respectful of all cultures & religions.
> 
> Here's an example. An event we worked recently was a huge Indian powwow. Over 50 different tribes from all over the country. Thousands of people were there. A couple of the patients we had (and boy, did we end up busy!) had the tribal medicine man come over. He understood that we had our job to do, and he was more than happy to let us do our work. He also went ahead and did his thing, which consisted of a few chants and spreading some herbs on the ground. When he was finished, I just asked him "That was very interesting. What does it mean?" and he told me about the chants and how it was a way to communicate with the spirits. It was actually interesting. I didn't have my own views of religion clouding up my head, and I didn't preach to the guy. I just tried to learn a bit about his culture and beliefs.
> Overall, it worked out pretty well. I learned something, and the patient (and the medicine man) appreciated the fact that I was there with them and showed some interest in their way of life.
> 
> Happy patients are a good thing.


Great point.... and the native american culture is somewhat different than, say, born-again christians...

The "native" amercans have been doing it longer... and they have neat ceremonies (I've been doing boy scouts for years).


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## fm_emt

Jon said:
			
		

> Great point.... and the native american culture is somewhat different than, say, born-again christians...
> 
> The "native" amercans have been doing it longer... and they have neat ceremonies (I've been doing boy scouts for years).



Yup. Pretty much every Native American Indian I've ever met is more than happy to tell you whatever you want to know about their religions and their cultures. Very nice people!


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## Kendall

Wow, old topic revival, here. 

Again, I don't mean to infringe on anyone's beliefs, offend, or otherwise peeve anyone, but I am curious for more thoughts on the issue. I suppose the question is directed to Christian EMS responders, but how do you, as Christians, cope with the daily riggors, stresses, panic and greiving that is commonly associated with our jobs as EMS responders?

Any particular verses that help, or prayers you might use?


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## firecoins

why do you need God when you have a paramedic?  Aren't they the same thing?


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## Jay114

firecoins said:


> why do you need God when you have a paramedic?  Aren't they the same thing?



 ooh dem words gonna start sumthin.....


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## hangit

:lol::lol::lol:





firecoins said:


> why do you need God when you have a paramedic?  Aren't they the same thing?





BWAAHHAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAAA.:lol::lol::lol:


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## Kendall

firecoins said:


> why do you need God when you have a paramedic?  Aren't they the same thing?



I'm not going to say much, but I, and many others do take offense to this. This was not my intent by reviving this topic, and I will leave it at that.


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## TKO

I don't find the pts to be a problem with faith.  I find most pts are more interested in what I can do for them than God atm (maybe that's why we get such big heads?)  Especially if they are circling the drain.

I prefer to just nod my head and let them talk if that gives them comfort.  They can believe what they want to, I have work to do.  Sometimes tho, I have to remind myself that it is a stretcher, not a couch.  Lots of pts want to bring all their emotional baggage along for the ride, but that isn't my area of expertise so I just nod my head and smile reassuringly.

No, I find it to be a bigger problem with partners who have a difference of faith and seem intent to change my mind.  That can get really annoying.


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## firecoins

Kendall said:


> I'm not going to say much, but I, and many others do take offense to this. This was not my intent by reviving this topic, and I will leave it at that.



I don't apologize for mentioning the well known joke.  Nor do I apologize for being an aethist. It my right to be a comedian and an aethist as is your right to be whatever you are. Your being "offended" is just as  offensive.


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## TKO

I LOL'ed.  I think this may just be a matter of miscommunication, so let's all just have a pint of D50 and relax.


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## Ridryder911

I am amazed on how differently EMS is than other health care professions. For example in nursing, faith is stressed through out most programs both being recognized for the patient and the provider as well. 

As a Christian, I could turn the wording around ask .."There is never not a place for God, especially in EMS"....

In realistic terms, I think sometimes we take our job way too serious, and then maybe not serious enough. Our job is really simple, to give immediate aid and support for the sick and injured, and transport them, that is about it. During this time you are a representative of the health care team, and the patient will have both physical and emotional needs. The emotional needs are just as important as the physical needs in some cases, if not all. 

If the patient is ill, I will pray and work at the same time. I do personally believe I am mere instrument and as usual do multitasking. If the patient request spiritual needs, I can perform multiple tasks, by simply stating.." I need to perform this; but we can silently ask and pray. 

The same being true of our own needs. What we are exposed to and deal with even in those short period of time, can be overwhelming. I can claim that my faith has allowed to me to pursue and continue this career, thirty times longer than the average medic. I do personally believe that there is always a place for my faith to shine, by my actions and if need be by my discussion and if the patient wants to a prayer so be it. 

We have an excellent Medical Chaplain, that intervenes with patients, families, and staff alike. His actions and interpersonal skills has been a "blessing" in multiple ways. Especially in crisis situations. He is quite aware of the medical needs, and actions that has to be taken, having faith will not intercept such as actions. 

I do not "preach" to no one. I personally do not believe that this leads to any positive action, rather; hopefully other will see in me, what they may desire. 


R/r 911


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## Gbro

There is a place for God in everything we do. However i believe in only 1 God and in the event of someone looking for comfort in an...... G.. ,  Well i cannot buy into that and will pray for the Pt's salvation (and mine). 
There is no room for hypocrisy in believing in the God of Abraham.

As for Rid's "Guru" conclusion that there is no benefit in CISD, Well he is just full of BS, We have had some fantastic results from CISD's.


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## firecoins

Let me seriously address the origianl post here as an aethist. Religion in and of itself is not a factor in how I treat a patient.  I deal with several major religions with followers of different levels of belief i.e. Hassidic Jews through reformed Jews. I am as respectful as possible and thats all I can do. Providing religious advice is out of my scope of practise.    

As for EMS providers, cops, firefighters, ER employees, If they can bring in their religion, I can bring in my aethism. Leave it at home.


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## emtwannabe

As a Christian, let me throw my 2 cents into the fray. Coins, you have every right to be an Atheist every day and twice on Sunday if you so desire. That is one of the freedoms we enjoy living here in America. 

I , however, do have the right to my religious views as well. To say, "leave it at home", is both insulting and ignorant. One does not just shut off their beliefs like a switch when they put their uniform on. To say that is like asking certain people not to breathe. I wear a bracelet that says "GODSTRONG". It has a particular verse from the bible that reminds me how I am to act while I am on this planet. 

I would never prostelytize any person to convert to Christianity, and as an Evangelical, that goes against the basic tenants of my faith. As a matter of fact, I would like to hear your particular views on your athiesim. 

Long rebuttal short, if someone notices my bracelet, and ASKS me to pray with them, or tell them about Jesus, I will. If my doing so gives someone else hope, no matter what situation they are in, I feel obligated by my relationship with my God to do so. 

Just as you are entitled not to do so.

Pm me if you want to talk further.


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## TKO

Great advice, Firecoins.  "Leave it at home".

I'm not going to debate which faith is right, beit christianity, muslim, hindu, judaism, zoroastrian or atheism.  But I do believe that it doesn't belong in EMS or the ER.

We know that it is rude to discuss it at the dinner table with guests.  We should all know that it doesn't belong in schools.  And we should be aware that it doesn't belong in EMS.

Leave it at home.  Don't bring your opinions to work with you.  If you have a bad fight with the spouse, you leave it at home.  If you have problems with management, you leave it at home.  If you find love on a homosexual website, you leave it at home (I don't necessarily like this situation, but I needed a positive to work with).  And if you find that "Nu-nu" helps you with your day and your life, leave it at home.

Atheists shouldn't be telling pts about how wrathful and judgemental their pts' Gods are.  Pts and their families may not appreciate that.  And this goes the other way for everyone else.

I live in Canada where I attend to pts of all faiths.  Canada is not the melting pot that the US is, remember.  So regardless of my beliefs, I must attend with an open mind and a respect for the pts beliefs.  There are numerous different cultures and faiths around me.  I can do my job way better without clashing over faith, without all the disrespect of assuming my beliefs are better than someone else's.

And I have to point out, that starting your point with "As a christian" asserts that this is an option or point of view that works for you.  It is not a solid, recognizable fact, backed up with empirical evidence.  Try working around people of another celebrated faith and then explain to me how your faith is going to help them.

I hate to disagree with you Rid, but I do not believe that EMS is backwards for not teaching religion with EMS.  My school discussed this matter and felt that we should be respectful and use good judgement and to remember that this is our work, not our personal space.  It always works well when pts share our faiths, but that is not always what we will encounter, ie) the Jehoviah's Witnesses, and we have to keep a clear and focused mindset free from bias and persecution.

I feel that my school was progressive for making us more aware that it is a bus with limited seating, so we shouldn't go belting God into the captain's seat everytime.  And the Universities here do not teach our RNs how to integrate religion into their work environment, as no program does (except maybe Computer Science: "Oh God, I hope this works this time!").  Even Religious Studies has an informal faith structure behind it.

Whatever we believe and use to draw our strengths from is great for each of us.  But it is not the almighty that does our job, so I too recommend leaving it at home.


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## Onceamedic

I was raised in Canada, which is a much more secular society than this part of the US where I live now.  When in Canada, I certainly did not attend church with anywhere the degree of regularity that I do now.  I also did not find myself using the buzzwords of Christianity with the frequency I do now.  I have adapted my outward behaviour to conform toward the norm that I live in.  We all do.  That is a hallmark of human nature - our adaptability.  However, these customs and attitudes have not changed my funadamental nature as a person.  I am still fiscally conservative, personally liberal, comfortable with uncertainty, open to change, etc. etc. etc.   At the end of the day, it boils down to how you treat your fellow man and how you do your job.  The rest is window dressing.

God bless you all.  ;-)


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## TKO

I want to emphasize that I am only in disagreement, not that I feel what others believe is cut and dry wrong.  No disrespect is intended.


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## Ridryder911

Gbro said:


> As for Rid's "Guru" conclusion that there is no benefit in CISD, Well he is just full of BS, We have had some fantastic results from CISD's.



Don't argue with me, it is only the scientific facts! I suggest you read the current trends. That is why Federal funding and support has been eliminated for CISD, it is considered psycho-babble and actually has been documented to possibly cause more harm than good. Are you really sure that it had great results?  Since PTSD, usually occurs years later, as well what type of research results did you compare this to or was this all ancedotal findings?

R/r911


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## emtwannabe

> And I have to point out, that starting your point with "As a christian" asserts that this is an option or point of view that works for you. It is not a solid, recognizable fact, backed up with empirical evidence. Try working around people of another celebrated faith and then explain to me how your faith is going to help them.



Real easy......

1. Faith is NOT based on empirical evidence. It is a belief in things not seen, things not of a tangible nature. It is a form of trust. Not unlike the trust our patients have in our abilities to do our jobs to the absolute best of our abilities. Are you saying then we should not be able to practice because our patients do not have faith in our abilities? Of course not. When someone dials 911, they have faith that someone will take care of them or their loved one. 

You have to understand that there is a HUGE difference between religion and faith. When I get up every morning and report to work, I put faith in my God to see me safely through the day. I pray silently throughout my day that as I see people, they see me not as a Methodist, Baptist, Catholic, or any of the major organized religions, but simply as a follower of Christ. I am not here to wave my "faith flag", or to force people to join the tribe, so to speak. It is for my comfort and my consciousness alone, unless SOMEBODY ASKS. I will never deny a patient fellowship if they ask. But they have to initiate the conversation. 

I believe that people of different faiths can get along by showing tolerance. If you read the bible, this is what we as believers are told to do. Love your neighbor as you love yourself. And that is why I got into EMS. To help my neighbor.

**disclaimer**   Not trying to inflame, but clarify my point. If I offend....well....remember.....Tolerance..It takes 2 for a dialogue, but only one to argue.


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## TKO

You have not offended me.  I never actually brought what my belief is to this roundtable.

And I absolutely know the difference between faith and religion.  If this were a discussion of organized religion's place in healthcare, I suspect there were be fewer people arguing for it and a lot more offensives to pass around.


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## Summit

I think Luno put it best... it is what reasonably comforts the patient. If you have problem with that, then you are in the wrong field.

You don't have to approve of your patients beliefs, but you do have to be professional. I can _think _Jehovas Witnesses are morons all I want so long as it doesn't interfere with my professionalism.



Gbro said:


> As for Rid's "Guru" conclusion that there is no benefit in CISD, Well he is just full of BS, We have had some fantastic results from CISD's.



Anecdotal success does not a successfull technique make...

read the studies and get with the program


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## firecoins

Religion in the workplace is fine as long as I can be an open aethist.  If you can bring up your religion, Ill bring up mine.


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## Gbro

ridryder 911 said:


> Don't argue with me, it is only the scientific facts! I suggest you read the current trends. That is why Federal funding and support has been eliminated for CISD, it is considered psycho-babble and actually has been documented to possibly cause more harm than good. Are you really sure that it had great results?  Since PTSD, usually occurs years later, as well what type of research results did you compare this to or was this all ancedotal findings?
> 
> R/r911



That is about the most arrogant statement i have ever heard, "Don't argue with me" the only one that ever got away with that statement was my loving Mother.

I'll just sum up where you are obviously coming from, "I'll just consider the source"
furthermore, the basics of CISD are to talk it out, not bottle up what one might not fully understand, and if you think that doesn't work, ,,,

Why i will pray for you.


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## emtwannabe

Point of clarification-Is atheism a religion? No, it is not, because it's principal beliefs are that there is NO god or supreme being. It is a way of life, but not a religion.

A religion, by definition, is a belief in a higher power or deity. 

Again, not inflaming, just clarifying.

And by all means, please share your views on atheism. I would certainly enjoy learning another person's perspective on how the world operates.


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## TKO

I never said I was atheist.

To clarify, atheism is a system of beliefs.  They have the faith that there is no God or higher Creator.  It is not a lack of faith.

And the definition of religion is an organization of followers of a faith.  It is not the faith itself.
Organized Religion is the bureaucratic and economic organization of this organization of followers of a faith.
Faith is a belief in an idea(s).
Knowing is awareness and comprehension of the facts.


I like to think that I provide tremendous pt support but I don't have to find a topic of common faith to do so.  I can get the pt to tell me about their family or whatever without a discussion on faith while I attend to them.  Sometimes when they are very upset and I'm between vitals, I'll just hold their hand.  Really, the topic of faith in the back of the bus has never been an issue for me.  Perhaps because I never bring it up?


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## Onceamedic

Definitions of religion tend to suffer from one of two problems: they are either too narrow and exclude many belief systems which most agree are religious, or they are too vague and ambiguous, suggesting that just about any and everything is a religion. 

A good example of a narrow definition is the common attempt to define “religion” as “belief in God,” effectively excluding polytheistic religions and atheistic religions while including theists who have no religious belief system. A good example of a vague definition is the tendency to define religion as “worldview” — but how can every worldview qualify as a religion? 

Some have argued that religion isn’t hard to define and the plethora of conflicting definitions is evidence of how easy it really is. The problem lies in finding a definition that is empirically useful and empirically testable. So far, the best definition of religion I have seen is in The Encyclopedia of Philosophy. It lists traits of religions rather than declaring religion to be one thing or another, arguing that the more markers present in a belief system, the more”religious like” it is: 

Belief in supernatural beings (gods). 
A distinction between sacred and profane objects. 
Ritual acts focused on sacred objects. 
A moral code believed to be sanctioned by the gods. 
Characteristically religious feelings (awe, sense of mystery, sense of guilt, adoration), which tend to be aroused in the presence of sacred objects and during the practice of ritual, and which are connected in idea with the gods. 
Prayer and other forms of communication with gods. 
A world view, or a general picture of the world as a whole and the place of the individual therein. This picture contains some specification of an over-all purpose or point of the world and an indication of how the individual fits into it. 
A more or less total organization of one’s life based on the world view. 
A social group bound together by the above. 
This definition captures much of what religion is across diverse cultures. It includes sociological, psychological, and historical factors and allows for broader gray areas in the concept of religion. It’s not without flaws, though. The first marker, for example, is about “supernatural beings” and gives “gods” as an example, but thereafter only gods are mentioned. Even the concept of “supernatural beings” is a bit too specific; Mircea Eliade defined religion in reference to a focus on “the sacred” and that is a good replacement for “supernatural beings” because not every religion revolves around the supernatural. 



A better definition is: 

Belief in something sacred (for example, gods or other supernatural beings). 
A distinction between sacred and profane objects. 
Ritual acts focused on sacred objects. 
A moral code believed to have a sacred or supernatural basis. 
Characteristically religious feelings (awe, sense of mystery, sense of guilt, adoration), which tend to be aroused in the presence of sacred objects and during the practice of ritual. 
Prayer and other forms of communication with the supernatural. 
A world view, or a general picture of the world as a whole and the place of the individual therein. This picture contains some specification of an over-all purpose or point of the world and an indication of how the individual fits into it. 
A more or less total organization of one’s life based on the world view. 
A social group bound together by the above. 
This is the definition of religion used here. It describes religious systems but not non-religious systems. It encompasses the features common in belief systems generally acknowledged as religions without focusing on specific characteristics unique to just a few.

From Austin Cline,
Your Guide to Agnosticism / Atheism.


I personally tend to agree with the definition of religion as a world view, thus the question of whether or not I bring it into the job becomes moot.


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## BossyCow

We bring ourselves to our jobs, whether we personally practice a 'system of belief' or are members of 'a religion', 'practice spirituality', or whatever.  Who we are and what makes us able to get through our days is what we bring to our jobs, our interpersonal relationships, and everything else that we do.  To suggest that any part of who we are and how we define ourselves doesn't impact our patient care is silly.  

One of our old volunteers was the local pastor and I know when he and I were running a code with no ALS available and only the two of us in the ambulance (more than a few times) God was in that ambulance.  Whether as a manifestation of the preacher's will/imagination/faith or what...doesn't matter how to me.  Of course, it wasn't enough to get me to show up in his chapel on Sundays.


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## firecoins

BossyCow said:


> One of our old volunteers was the local pastor and I know when he and I were running a code with no ALS available and only the two of us in the ambulance (more than a few times) God was in that ambulance.  Whether as a manifestation of the preacher's will/imagination/faith or what...doesn't matter how to me.  Of course, it wasn't enough to get me to show up in his chapel on Sundays.



Okay. Ill bite. I can't help myself.  This a question of curiosity.  How was God in the ambulance with you?  In what way?  Any answer you give is correct...or incorrect by my beliefs. So just remove any argumentiveness you may take from my asking.


----------



## BossyCow

firecoins said:


> Okay. Ill bite. I can't help myself.  This a question of curiosity.  How was God in the ambulance with you?  In what way?  Any answer you give is correct...or incorrect by my beliefs. So just remove any argumentiveness you may take from my asking.



LOL.. well, since I'm not christian or affiliated with any form of organized religion, I think I can do the argumentative removal without issue.  

I believe that the belief/faith or whatever term you want to give it, of the pastor made a difference.  I saw patient's stabilize, red lights turn green (they don't let us volly's have opticons) and because of the pastor, this indentified by me as a presence of his god in the rig.


----------



## Ridryder911

Gbro said:


> That is about the most arrogant statement i have ever heard, "Don't argue with me" the only one that ever got away with that statement was my loving Mother.
> 
> I'll just sum up where you are obviously coming from, "I'll just consider the source"
> furthermore, the basics of CISD are to talk it out, not bottle up what one might not fully understand, and if you think that doesn't work, ,,,
> 
> Why i will pray for you.



Sorry, but you want to ignore proven medical and scientific facts. You want to debate an anecdotal feeling over proven facts, then I suggest to do so against those that studied CISD systems for years and on thousands of people. They did not come up with this idea overnight. Like anything in medicine, all treatments should be evidence based. Which means, it should be studied prior to being placed to real people, events and patients. This is why it is no longer recommended, it has been proven not to be effective for the reason it was established and again, potentially harmful. Would you endorse a medication with the same outcome?  

For our system (EMS) to continue to endorse such programs that has been proven to be harmful is dangerous and shameful, especially to members of our own profession. 

Post traumatic stress may not be immediately seen for years or even decades, again CISD has not been shown to do any good to prevent such occurrences. As well, it has been shown to possibly to cause harm by not having real professionals interviewing and as well by placing "false beliefs" that it actually did good at the time. 

Having professional licensed mental health counselors that are properly educated and trained in such speciality should be the goal of EMS providers. Not all people need " to vent" and open up, and in some can cause more problems, as well some need intense therapy to deal with the inner personal psyche of the event. CISD teams need to be composed of professionals educated and licensed in mental health, rather than some non-mental health care workers attending a few session in debriefing techniques. There is reason why it is no longer endorsed or recommended by disaster relief and rescue organizations world wide. 

I highly recommend to read current literature and the reasons of why such continuation and practices are no longer recommended before having an attitude of non-compliance of changes. 

Like in medicine, treatments change continuously and sometimes are a myth to begin with, in similarly as many still believe in the urban myth of the ..."Golden Hour"...and MAST trousers which never was proven as well.

All though proven never to work, both are hard to eliminate in the mind sets of most EMT's that refuse to adapt changes in medicine.

You may not like me, or what I write, I don't care. I don't post to be liked. Rather what I attempt to do is to educate and remove myths, ignorance (not knowing) then direct to proven and factual medical care, than anecdotal beliefs that may not be in the best interest of patient's or the EMS System. 
Many EMT's do not keep up on current medical care. We are a division of medicine, which is science and therefore our treatments and procedures should be based upon that. 

p.s. thanks for the prayers.. I can always use those 

R/r 911


----------



## firetender

The art of being a medic, IMHO, centers around being completely in the moment that is, and working with everything at your disposal. We all have found ourselves in critical situations where we didn't have what we thought we needed and then, somehow, using what was there, we got through the call.

A huge tool to work with is the person's relationship with their higher power. It can and does take as many forms as there are people. I don't have to believe as they do to use it as a tool of healing any more than I need to inject myself with Inderal before I can use _it_ on a patient.

Clinically, it is a calming influence that affects all the vital signs, technically it can take the heat off you as their savior by placing things in proper perspective. 

How? 

I ask every one of you, including Atheist medics, can you relate to this?

*"We're all working together now; me, you and anything you believe in that will bring you back to health."*

If you're working with the person that is in front of you -- and in areas of religion we all know that resistance to a belief system gets you no where -- there are many ways to connect around their personal belief in a God or Gods or Goddesses, and to mobilize that in their defense. It's all about focusing their attention.

Resistance is probably the key thing to avoid. Even within yourself. 

If a patient brings God into the back of your ambulance, then use Him!
(Her, What- or Whomever!)


----------



## BossyCow

Absolutely firetender, I don't care if the patient calls it God, Goddess, Luck, Coincidence, Fate, Higher Power, Delusion.... if it's a power that is going help, I'll welcome it on my call anytime.


----------



## firetender

RID SAID:
"Having professional licensed mental health counselors that are properly educated and trained in such speciality should be the goal of EMS providers. Not all people need " to vent" and open up, and in some can cause more problems, as well some need intense therapy to deal with the inner personal psyche of the event. CISD teams need to be composed of professionals educated and licensed in mental health, rather than some non-mental health care workers attending a few session in debriefing techniques. There is reason why it is no longer endorsed or recommended by disaster relief and rescue organizations world wide. "


In matters of dealing with the trauma, past, present, or post that comes from being a medic, the person who I can sit down and honestly "talk shop" with is the person that is most qualified to help me see things I couldn't see before.

I think *we need to take personal responsibility for our own* because few clinically trained counseling professionals have walked a mile in our mocassins. The failure is in the system because it places more importance on clinical broad-strokes than connection with the individual in the moment. In the process, it puts the power into the hands of a machine and leads us to the illusion that we have to go into someone else's paradigm to get help.  That's BS!

I believe that we can develop a peer-counseling model that can be taught and shared with each other. The most important part of this is to develop a sacred space of safety where we can just simply start talking with each other of matters deeper than our typical surface concerns.

It is that simple!

The model can have built-in release valves that can syphon off those more seriously affected into more professional counseling. Wiithin that context we can also establish a specialty within the profession that develops facilitators who then can build careers counseling other medics in crisis.


----------



## Ridryder911

Part of the problem was that CISD attempted to do what you described. Placing non-mental health care workers to treat mental health issues. Again one does not have to "go through" or deal with the daily operations of EMS to have an objective and understanding insight what the job entitles to give professional counseling. In fact, objectiveness may be better obtained from those that do not deal with it on a daily basis. 

There is nothing wrong with debriefing and "talking" about calls. That is different than performing and describing mental health care. There is a problem to present such as professional therapy and possibly prevention of PTSD and making claims and giving an impression, when in fact it is a myth. Can we really trust someone with a persons psyche and emotional well being, that only attended a couple seminar sessions? Sorry, mental health is more in depth and important than that, so is our personal. 

Do we really think an EMT or EMS personal is educated enough in mental health to really assess and recognize such mental problems? We cannot get even get EMT's to take an anatomy class, do you perceive them receiving years of education in this speciality. Mental health is much more difficult, than providing physical assessment and treatments. That is why it should be dealt with by licensed professionals. 

This is really a mute point. Many may continue to disagree with the results and findings, so be it, one cannot change the facts. 

In the future, one will see less and less CISD, rather trained licensed professional counselors that are able provide medical care to our fellow workers. There is much interest in rescuers problems and research on how to improve and handling the issues. The funding and promotion of CISD is gone for a reason. 

Back to the original posts, you are there for the patient not vice versa. If one wants personal faith, within them so be it and personally good for myself. Not recognizing the patients need of faith is negligent of the patients emotional well being, and those with medical education recognizes the importance of that as well. Again, this has been evidence proven and scientifically studied in detail. It is part of patient care. 

R/r 911


----------



## Jay114

firetender said:


> A huge tool to work with is the person's relationship with their higher power. It can and does take as many forms as there are people. I don't have to believe as they do to use it as a tool of healing any more than I need to inject myself with Inderal before I can use _it_ on a patient.



I was going to weigh in on this topic, but this struck me as a better way to say what I was thinking. Well said firetender!


----------



## Gbro

Rid said;
"For our system (EMS) to continue to endorse such programs that has been proven to be harmful is dangerous and shameful, especially to members of our own profession." 

So now let me get this right, (this is hypothetical)
Spike was on a MVA (wrong way on a 4 lane) and 5 of 6 members of a family are killed, as is the driver of the vehicle going the wrong way. He isn't sleeping well, no appetite, and several members of the crew state Spike isn't himself. We notice that that whole shift is having  issues, late coming in, snapping at each other, 

Well sorry guys, you all have to go see a shrink. Its the recommended way to deal with stress these days, 
ya well i know its a bum deal,---- ya, you will have to give up your guns, no more hunting for you,--Why?---- cause the know-it-alls in mental health state we will harm you if we attempt to debrief you. 
Hey don't look at me all I'm doing is listening to all those that know everything.

Well guess what, I will argue with you.
Lets remember who and what is at stake here. 
We have had whole First responder groups involved in Stress Debriefing and have had wonderful results. And that is a fact.
I myself haven't been on the receiving side, as i never acknowledged being shook after a very nasty call, was i shook. yes. but my philosophy is,

Bad things "Happen" and we will get our share, Its just a matter of time until its our turn again.


----------



## BossyCow

Gbro said:


> So now let me get this right, (this is hypothetical)
> Spike was on a MVA (wrong way on a 4 lane) and 5 of 6 members of a family are killed, as is the driver of the vehicle going the wrong way. He isn't sleeping well, no appetite, and several members of the crew state Spike isn't himself. We notice that that whole shift is having  issues, late coming in, snapping at each other,
> 
> Well sorry guys, you all have to go see a shrink. Its the recommended way to deal with stress these days,
> ya well i know its a bum deal,---- ya, you will have to give up your guns, no more hunting for you,--Why?---- cause the know-it-alls in mental health state we will harm you if we attempt to debrief you.
> Hey don't look at me all I'm doing is listening to all those that know everything.





I don't think anyone is saying that here.  What rid is posting is a critique of the current system.  And he is correct.  There are some serious flaws that have developed after the CISD, including those who had no issued prior to the group meeting developing them.  Mental illness can be fatal.  And many of those who suffer from it take others with them.  I'm thinking this is something that is best left to professionals.  

That said, this doesn't mean that as a group, trained as we are in the signs and symptoms of stress, that we can't help.  No one is saying that being a friend to a co-worker after a tough call isn't valuable.  What is being said is the formal debriefing isn't working and there are those who are so deeply impacted by a call that professional help is needed.  CISD doesn't often identify those people and may in fact harm the others.  Instead of jumping to the opposite extreme and polarizing the subject, why don't you read the links Rid posted or search yourself about some of the controversy surrounding CISD as it currently is being implemented.


----------



## Ridryder911

Gbro said:


> Rid said;
> "For our system (EMS) to continue to endorse such programs that has been proven to be harmful is dangerous and shameful, especially to members of our own profession."
> 
> So now let me get this right, (this is hypothetical)
> Spike was on a MVA (wrong way on a 4 lane) and 5 of 6 members of a family are killed, as is the driver of the vehicle going the wrong way. He isn't sleeping well, no appetite, and several members of the crew state Spike isn't himself. We notice that that whole shift is having  issues, late coming in, snapping at each other,
> 
> Well sorry guys, you all have to go see a shrink. Its the recommended way to deal with stress these days,
> ya well i know its a bum deal,---- ya, you will have to give up your guns, no more hunting for you,--Why?---- cause the know-it-alls in mental health state we will harm you if we attempt to debrief you.
> Hey don't look at me all I'm doing is listening to all those that know everything.
> 
> Well guess what, I will argue with you.
> Lets remember who and what is at stake here.
> We have had whole First responder groups involved in Stress Debriefing and have had wonderful results. And that is a fact.
> I myself haven't been on the receiving side, as i never acknowledged being shook after a very nasty call, was i shook. yes. but my philosophy is,
> 
> Bad things "Happen" and we will get our share, Its just a matter of time until its our turn again.



So let's say Spike has all those "symptoms" and what medication and therapy is your little CISD going to do? Are they going to assume responsibility of Spike, if he goes home and blows his brains out? 


Just because Johnny Rescuer took an 40 hr class on crisis intervention, now they think they are a mental health professional which requires several years of education and clinical exposures to be detect symptoms that may not be obvious. Maybe, Spike does not want to "talk out loud" to other peers, or especially to his buddies. Which occurs a lot in depression and PTSD. 

That is part of the problem, EMS assumes we know what PTSD looks like and what events they occur from as well how to intervene. This is a major myth and even the military is heavily exploring these problems and they deal with much more than we do. 

For locking up his weapons... well, yes if you really care for him. Since he is displaying symptoms of depression, and that is an illness, just like a physical illness they need to seek a physician. 

R/r 911


----------



## firetender

I'm gonna start a new thread that covers some of the more recent stuff so everyone here can get back to God.


----------



## firecoins

firetender said:


> A huge tool to work with is the person's relationship with their higher power. It can and does take as many forms as there are people. I don't have to believe as they do to use it as a tool of healing any more than I need to inject myself with Inderal before I can use _it_ on a patient.
> 
> Clinically, it is a calming influence that affects all the vital signs, technically it can take the heat off you as their savior by placing things in proper perspective.
> 
> How?
> 
> I ask every one of you, including Atheist medics, can you relate to this?


 
Ahh the calming power of belief.  If patient believes in God, using their religious beliefs to calm them is important.  It doesn't prove any one God exists. If they believed in the flying spagetti monster, I would use that.  With children, the calming experience may come from their parents being present or having a certain favorite toy. You use whatever  works.  Calming a patient is important.  Believing its God?  Thats another question all together.


----------



## Rattletrap

Yesterday I rolled up on a code being worked by 2 other trucks from the company I work for. Even though when I saw the Pt and knew that it was hopeless. I saw people who were not the most religious ppl on earth, who were working that code, speaking to  God in their own way. 

Reason - PT was 1 month old

If you are not praying your arse off in that situation then there is something wrong with you. Yes you have to stay focused but prayer can keep you focused and not clutter your mind.


----------



## firecoins

Rattletrap said:


> If you are not praying your arse off in that situation then there is something wrong with you. Yes you have to stay focused but prayer can keep you focused and not clutter your mind.



Yes a 1 month old in a code is very bad. It would make me feel terrible. I certainly would be hoping for this baby to recover reguardless of how unlikely I knew that recover might be. I don't think my lack of prayer would make me lose focus or that something was wrong with me.  While I lack a belief in God, I would probably be in a similiar state of mind as everyone described. I just wouldn't be "praying" per se. I think we just differing on semantics here.


----------



## wolfwyndd

emtwannabe said:


> <snippage for brevity> I wear a bracelet that says "GODSTRONG". It has a particular verse from the bible that reminds me how I am to act while I am on this planet.
> 
> Long rebuttal short, if someone notices my bracelet, and ASKS me to pray with them, or tell them about Jesus, I will. If my doing so gives someone else hope, no matter what situation they are in, I feel obligated by my relationship with my God to do so.


Just out of curiousity, how and / or what would you do if someone noticed your bracelet and said they were offended by it and / or mentioned lodging a complaint against you based on your bracelet and they thought that just by wearing it you were prostelytizing or showing a preference for a particular religious belief?  IE, in the patient's opinion, you are offending them?


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## emtwannabe

Fine with me.....I have had NO complaints so far....as a matter of fact, I have had people inquire as to how they can get a bracelet like mine. 

If you want to wear your pentagram as a wiccan, Go for it. It offends me, just like a cross offends someone of Muslim descent. But I will NOT try to push MY OWN personal beliefs on anyone. I respect people of different races, creeds, colors, religious preferences and backgrounds. 

Having a bracelet or a religious medallion or a symbol of whatever faith is guaranteed in the Bill of Rights, so your argument is a moot point. 

And, for what it is worth, I am descended from one of the "Salem 16"....I have intimate knowledge of Wicca and their belief systems, as I went through a very difficult time in my life trying to define where my religious preferences lie. 

PM me if you want to discuss this further, Ok?


----------



## firetender

I'm granted the right to express myself openly by the constitution, within limits. Any form of jewelry or the like that I display that identifies me as of one orientation or another is most likely going to be noticed by someone who is of similar orientation. In that case, just like anything, it can be a tool useful in connection, as long as the patient initiates going there. Connection is the gateway to healing.

If any part of my belief system can be solace to someone that I'm working with, then it's going to be in my toolbox. But the use of it is very situation dependent, and all based on agreement.


----------



## Kendall

firetender said:


> I'm granted the right to express myself openly by the constitution, within limits. Any form of jewelry or the like that I display that identifies me as of one orientation or another is most likely going to be noticed by someone who is of similar orientation. In that case, just like anything, it can be a tool useful in connection, as long as the patient initiates going there. Connection is the gateway to healing.
> 
> If any part of my belief system can be solace to someone that I'm working with, then it's going to be in my toolbox. But the use of it is very situation dependent, and all based on agreement.





emtwannabe said:


> I will NOT try to push MY OWN personal beliefs on anyone. I respect people of different races, creeds, colors, religious preferences and backgrounds.





Thank you! That sums up my opinion exactly.


----------



## BossyCow

emtwannabe said:


> just like a cross offends someone of Muslim descent.




Huh?  First.. Muslim is a belief system not genetics or ethnicity.  You can have members of the Muslim faith in your family history and not be Muslim... so the term.. 'of Muslim descent' is inaccurate and offensive on many levels.  

After I correct the semantics of your comment and assume that you meant to say that those who follow the tenents of Islam are offended by those who wear a cross, you are also way off base.  The majority of mainstream practicioners of Islam are not offended when those of other belief systems wear symbols of their beliefs.  It is only the most fundamentalist of all beliefs that find the evidence of other beliefs offensive.


----------



## lcope

*Faith and EMS*

The “Religion and the Star of Life” thread got me thinking about my faith in Jesus.  I am still an EMT-B student, but I’m sure there will be times that I will need to draw on my faith once I start working in EMS.

So here is my question:  *Are any other Christians out there that would like to share how their faith in Christ got them through a difficult experience at work?*

_Please note that the purpose of this thread is not to debate the existence of God or promote one religion over another.  It is simply meant to be a place where stories can be shared._


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## piranah

I believe that as a patient passes...It was for a reason and it was their time to go...and even if we can't see a reason, theres one....even if it happens so that we know how to deal with it differently next time....all i know is when a PT passes with a chronic disease or even from an acute one they'd be better off "upstairs". than living out the desease here.....idk maybe im just idiotic but it seems to work....


----------



## hitechredneckemt

I wont go into my religion, but mine has helped me allot in my EMS career.


----------



## firecoins

hitechredneckemt said:


> I wont go into my religion, but mine has helped me allot in my EMS career.



of course. Your from Jerusalem.


----------



## hitechredneckemt

I found the humor in that firecoins , but me and my wife are Native American.


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## bled12345

I'm a devout atheist, the common sense and logic have helped me to rationalize many difficult things in my life.


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## wexlerk13

when it comes to this topic, i am a christian (episcopalian to be exact), however, no matter what religion you are each has a belief system that can help in any troubling time.  

In my religion it is my faith and piety that gets me through the hard calls.  Especially as a corpsmen in the Navy (oversee's "calls").  If you use your piety to become close to God (*or whatever you worship) when you are off duty, it will allow you to have faith that God* is watching over you and your patients.

Not sure if it helps but this is a little prayer i say before i would go out on calls or patrols(military).  It's a mix of some of my favorite prayers/psalms, it may be a little corny, but it gets me through the day just fine.

*Lord, grant me the strength to do the work you have given me to do, allow me to work miracles through your name, watch over my crew, my patients, and myself as i set forth to walk through the shadow of the valley of death and I shall fear no evil for i KNOW thou art with me. Amen.*
if all else fails...........pray


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## piranah

amen brother....ill use that prayer..i like it


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## firecoins

bled12345 said:


> I'm a devout atheist, the common sense and logic have helped me to rationalize many difficult things in my life.



Its true!!! I am not alone!  High Five!


----------



## rmellish

bled12345 said:


> I'm a devout atheist, the common sense and logic have helped me to rationalize many difficult things in my life.



Can I join the club too? We could meet each Sunday. B)

Thats pretty much how I see things. I've seen enough that I've decided that there's no one in charge of this unscripted variety show known as life.


----------



## Anomalous

A devout atheist?

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This 
de·vout   Audio Help   /dɪˈvaʊt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-vout] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation 
–adjective, -er, -est. *1. devoted to divine worship or service; pious; religious: a devout Catholic.  *


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## firecoins

oooh you got us.


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## Anomalous

firecoins said:


> oooh you got us.



Even Satan believes there is a God!


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## firecoins

Anomalous said:


> Even Satan believes there is a God!



what if you don't believe in Satan?


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## rmellish

firecoins said:


> what if you don't believe in Satan?



"Perhaps that's why men invented God--a being capable of understanding" - Graham Greene

I don't pretend to understand why things happen. I'll focus on the how, its certainly easier. 

Wow, this has become a bit of an atheism thread hasn't it?


----------



## CFRBryan347768

Whats it called when you think every thing happened scientifically(my appologies probally spelled wrong)?


----------



## CFRBryan347768

rmellish said:


> Wow, this has become a bit of an atheism thread hasn't it?




Dont think religion should have been brought onto the site


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## Jango

CFRBryan347768 said:


> Whats it called when you think every thing happened scientifically(my appologies probally spelled wrong)?



Would that be Scientology? Not sure if thats what you meant, it's the first thing that came to mind.

And a topic thread on anything religion related is going to hurt some feeling and be prone to being hijacked....


----------



## CFRBryan347768

Jango said:


> Would that be Scientology? Not sure if thats what you meant, it's the first thing that came to mind.
> 
> And a topic thread on anything religion related is going to hurt some feeling and be prone to being hijacked....



I'm not to sure...but that seems the most ersonable to me, i like an explanation for everything


----------



## rmellish

Jango said:


> And a topic thread on anything religion related is going to hurt some feeling and be prone to being hijacked....



I'd like to think that everyone would be able to share their ideas, but still be willing to accept that others may have different ones. 

I'm just not seeing the problem here I guess.


----------



## firecoins

rmellish said:


> "Perhaps that's why men invented God--a being capable of understanding" - Graham Greene
> 
> I don't pretend to understand why things happen. I'll focus on the how, its certainly easier.
> 
> Wow, this has become a bit of an atheism thread hasn't it?



unfortanately


----------



## firecoins

Jango said:


> Would that be Scientology? Not sure if thats what you meant, it's the first thing that came to mind.
> 
> And a topic thread on anything religion related is going to hurt some feeling and be prone to being hijacked....



Scientology has nothing to do with science and more to do with science fiction.

I don't see the thread being hijacked. Its a thread on EMS on faith. Some are Catholic. Some are Protestants. Some are Jews. And some of us are athists.  Thats it. Its that simple.


----------



## Jango

firecoins said:


> Scientology has nothing to do with science and more to do with science fiction.
> 
> I don't see the thread being hijacked. Its a thread on EMS on faith. Some are Catholic. Some are Protestants. Some are Jews. And some of us are athists.  Thats it. Its that simple.



I think you are right....I took a guess at it.  And so far the thread has remained somewhat calm.....


----------



## mikie

Jewish here...

However, by no means am I 'devout.'   Heck, my view of religion are still in the makings.  

Judaism to me is more about spirituality and culture.  I am not a firm believer in god, yet I identify myself as a Jew.  


Sorry, I know that wasn't the topic of the forum as it was to pertain to Christians.


----------



## firecoins

mikie333 said:


> Sorry, I know that wasn't the topic of the forum as it was to pertain to Christians.



nope yout hit the topic on the head.  Your Jewish. Don't apologize.


----------



## CFRBryan347768

Jango said:


> I don't see the thread being hijacked. Its a thread on EMS on faith. Some are Catholic. Some are Protestants. Some are Jews. And some of us are athists. Thats it. Its that simple...



Along With These, Didnt Wann Leave Any One Out.B)
Aladura

Amish

Anglicanism

Asatru

Bah'ai Faith

Baptist

Bön

Buddhism

Cao Dai

Catholicism

Chinese Religion

Chopra Center

Christianity

Christian Science

Confucianism 
Conservative Judaism

Divine Science

Eckankar

Epicureanism

Episcopalianism

Falun Gong

Germanic Heathenism Greco-Roman Religion 
Hare Krishna (ISKCON)

Hasidic Judaism

Hellenic Reconstructionism

Hinduism

Islam

Jainism

Jehovah's Witnesses

Judaism

Kemetic Reconstructionism

Lutheranism

Mahayana Buddhism

Mayan Religion

Mithraism

Mormonism (LDS) 
Neopaganism

New Thought

Nichiren Buddhism

Orthodox Christianity

Orthodox Judaism
Presbyterianism Protestantism

Pure Land Buddhism

Rastafari

Religious Science

Scientology

Seventh-day Adventist

Shaivism

Shinto

Sikhism

Stoicism

Taoism

Tendai Buddhism

Theravada Buddhism

Tibetan Buddhism

Unification Church

Unitarian Universalism

Unity Church

Vaishnavism

Wicca

Zen

Zoroastrianism


----------



## firecoins

Actually your quoting me, not Jingo.  But yes, I didn't have the patience to type all of that.


----------



## Short Bus

I believe in the things I can see and learn about and understand.  I have a hard time going on what a 2000 year old book talks about.  More so when it was written about a person that lived several hundred years before the people that wrote it.  It has some good points that can help you get though, but for the most part...nah.  

As has been said, I look at the how and why and that gets me throuh just fine.


----------



## CFRBryan347768

firecoins said:


> Actually your quoting me, not Jingo.  But yes, I didn't have the patience to type all of that.



Yes I appologize about that i realized when it was too late, and neither did I i looked it up hahah.


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## Firesurfer75

lcope said:


> Are any other Christians out there that would like to share how their faith in Christ got them through a difficult experience at work?



I used to struggle with faith when I'd see people in pain, especially family members screaming over their dead loved one. It drove me to losing faith at one point in my career, but as I've grown older I see reason behind faith and pain. As some others have already said, I sometimes pray to Jesus for the strength to make it through a tough time, or to help others, but I've stopped asking why bad things happen to good people. There are so many terrible things that are going on in the world, in fact, there always has been throughout history! My personal relationship with God has turned to personal happiness. I thank God everyday that He has blessed me with an awesome career that gives me happiness helping others. I thank God everyday for guiding me to happiness in life... Because of EMS, I'm happy, I own a nice home, I have a great family who has been safe and healthy. To me, these are the important things that I have God, my mother, and myself to thank. I actually deal with the suffering encountered in EMS as "this is my job, to do what I can to help them". If I worked in an office and pretended like bad things didn't happen, there would be someone else doing the EMS job and ignorance would be bliss. Honestly, I wish I could find happiness in an office job! The reality is that I can't, my happiness is in EMS, and that is where God comes into my life.. I thank him for my personal happiness, and that is what I have to drive off of.. happiness. Why do bad things happen to good people? I don't know, and would drive myself insane trying to find the answer. What I do know is that because of EMS I am happy and I have a happy family, and this is how I deal with difficult situations and faith.


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## BossyCow

I tend to incorporate all factors of my life and experience in my EMS work. Some of them are spiritual in nature, some are not. When things in my life are difficult, I turn to my spiritual practice to help me deal with them, whether EMS related or not. I have never understood what drives some people to advertise their beliefs. To me its a very private and personal thing and not for public display.


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## wexlerk13

BossyCow said:


> I have never understood what drives some people to advertise their beliefs. To me its a very private and personal thing and not for public display.



In my religion (christianity) the church is a community, not a building.  Religion was ment to be shared or else it would be a secret.  Don't get me wrong i don't like people pushing religions on others, but i view it as a good thing to be open about your religion.

why hide it?


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## JPINFV

wexlerk13 said:


> In my religion (christianity) the church is a community, not a building.  Religion was ment to be shared or else it would be a secret.  Don't get me wrong i don't like people pushing religions on others, but i view it as a good thing to be open about your religion.
> 
> why hide it?



There's a fine line, though, between sharing and pushing. No one is going to argue about forming a community, but on the other hand I don't appreciate it when certain sects decide that religion makes a door to door sales job.


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## wexlerk13

JPINFV said:


> I don't appreciate it when certain sects decide that religion makes a door to door sales job.



I agree 100%


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## Jango

JPINFV said:


> There's a fine line, though, between sharing and pushing. No one is going to argue about forming a community, but on the other hand I don't appreciate it when certain sects decide that religion makes a door to door sales job.



I agree, the line is very fine in this area....I have seen people respond like a wounded animal when you challenge their beliefs.

Be a professional, use your beliefs for yourself....if your pt has different beliefs...respect them.  

If someone wants to know about your beliefs....they can ask you.....if they need to know more there is always google. Religion is and always will be a touchy and sensitive subject. Bottom line....we all share a belief in doing whats right for our pt and our communities, if we did not then we wouldn't be in this line of work.


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## BossyCow

I understand that some believe that their beliefs are to be shared, I have just never understood why. Personally, I believe as Thomas Jefferson did...

"Say nothing of my religion. It is known to God and myself alone. Its evidence before the world is to be sought in my life: if it has been honest and dutiful to society the religion which has regulated it cannot be a bad one."


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## Firesurfer75

When the Mormons come to my home and ask me if I have faith and religion, it really is none of their business, but they do have good intentions and it is a whole lot better question than them holding a gun at me and asking for my money. After they invite me to their church, I always smile and tell them likewise they're invited to my church as well. Religion is a personal thing, but in the christian bible Jesus teaches to spread the word of God, which some people do it fanatically and it can get annoying! Most religions that have a single god of worship teach that other gods of different religions are evil and false, hence the reason why so many arguments pursue, and the focal point of jihad. We live in a diverse culture in the states, built on religious freedom, so tolerance is a virtue and respect towards others is important in the U.S. The original post for this was "Are any other Christians out there that would like to share how their faith in Christ got them through a difficult experience at work?" ICOP just asked a simple question that has sparked into an entirely different topic of debate. I thought I would share my faith and thoughts with him/her with hopes that it could maybe help or provide some insight. I certainly wasn't advertising or pushing my beliefs. There were several replies here that didn't state if Jesus is their god of faith, but sharing their experience with faith and EMS certainly was helpful and in my opinion a good contribution to helping ICOP with his/her question. Maybe we could start a new topic called "Which is the correct religion?":wacko::lol: and see how long that draws out to be before it gets locked by a moderator!


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## JPINFV

In the end, I think the bible sums this up nicely in itself.


> (But) take care not to perform righteous deeds in order that people may see them; otherwise, you will have no recompense from your heavenly Father.
> 
> When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites  do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right is doing, so that your almsgiving may be secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.
> 
> When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, who love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on street corners so that others may see them. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.
> 
> When you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites. They neglect their appearance, so that they may appear to others to be fasting. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, so that you may not appear to be fasting, except to your Father who is hidden. And your Father who sees what is hidden will repay you.
> Matthew, Chapter 6. New American Bible


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## firecoins

> When the Mormons come to my home and ask me if I have faith and religion, it really is none of their business, but they do have good intentions and it is a whole lot better question than them holding a gun at me and asking for my money



well thats a way to look at it.

Ill quote the atheist book.


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## Firesurfer75

:lol: That's pretty good Firecoins


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## Short Bus

firecoins said:


> Ill quote the atheist book.



LOL, you have to admit, that was pretty funny


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## Firesurfer75

Firesurfer75 said:


> :lol: That's pretty good Firecoins



...the blank after the athiest book quote, that is. lol


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## akflightmedic

I am quoting here from memory, so wording may not be exct and I will cite the source later.



Once there was a Native Eskimo with a missionary in his village. The Eskimo said to the missionary, "Would I have been condemed to hell for eternity had you NOT ever told me of jesus,god,chrisitanity?" The missionary said "Of course not, there is no way for you to have ever known".

The Eskimo then said sadly "WHY, why did you ever tell me of this then?"


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## Jon

Firesurfer75 said:


> When the Mormons come to my home and ask me if I have faith and religion...


Being Jewish, my father's solution was to point to the Mezuzah on the front door frame and politely say "we're already taken".



Firesurfer75 said:


> we could start a new topic called "Which is the correct religion?":wacko::lol: and see how long that draws out to be before it gets locked by a moderator!


Please don't. OK?


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## daedalus

*Faith*

For those of us who are active in a religious faith, how do you reconcile it with what you see everyday and your knowledge of what the human body is? I find myself in a current state of non belief and I feel like I would be better off finding faith again. Its difficult knowing that the brain is just a very intricate network of interconnected neurons wherein consciousness arises from shear complexity of the network.


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## Ridryder911

Actually, it confirms my faith even more. The human body is so amazing! Each part is dependent on another, a fine working machine. Not only that a machine that repairs itself!

As hard as man has attempted to manufacture, repair the parts.. still nothing is as better as the original. I find that ironic as much time and money is spent on medicine. 

About the time, I start having doubts I will see an interesting case that disproves any scientific finding and logic. Again, a reality check with who is really in charge. 

R/r 911


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## firetender

There was another thread up here where there was a link to a very elaborate encyclopedia of pix of individuals who had done themselves in. At first, I was really reluctant to view it, having been out of the field for 20+ years and not so sure if my stomach could take it anymore.

But I did, and surprisingly, it shocked me back to my overall experience with death and life and the space in between: *We are not our bodies.* 

I had many moments where life slipped out of my hands and went somewhere. Where? I don't know. But do I have to know to have faith?  I don't even think "faith" is a part of it. I've seen it. I've seen the spark of a human being not extinguish, but go somewhere. Have you not sensed this?

We are taught, as Flesh Technicians, to not look at such stuff, but we all do. I commend you for bringing this up, for there are few questions in our field as important to our own relationship with life.

Even while working up a pulseless and apneic patient who never made it back, inexplicably, I knew when the _presence_ left the area and I was working on a cadaver. 

I was raised strict Catholic and went on to try to un-learn everything I was taught so there'd be space for a God more personal to my life to come in.  At first it was a bit maddening to not have a structure to hold my searches but when I started working in the back of ambulances my experiences led me into the Great Mystery: I really don't have to know or understand the details, but there is Something much greater than me and we are inextricably linked.  

Let me suggest that you allow yourself to be open to "seeing" how, as a medic, you are being "used" to effect good. How, no one else in the Universe could supply that special thing that you bring to the situation that  moves death into, or back into, life.

Then, focus on learning how to move with that force no matter what philosophical, religious or spiritual framework you put it in.

Feel free to check in with me privately. I'll be happy to explore more with you.


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## firecoins

I bring a different standpoint on faith. Atheism and skepticism appeal to me. I am unable to reconcile religious belief with what I have learned studying science.  And I have obviously chosen science.


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## scottgsxr97

Choosing science doesn’t mean you can’t believe in God.  I know quite a few people involved in science professions and are very religious.  Science is just us trying to reverse engineer what God created.  Just because we haven’t figured it out doesn’t mean God doesn’t exists.


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## karaya

scottgsxr97 said:


> Choosing science doesn’t mean you can’t believe in God. I know quite a few people involved in science professions and are very religious. Science is just us trying to reverse engineer what God created. Just because we haven’t figured it out doesn’t mean God doesn’t exists.


 
That's what created God's... man's ignorance.


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## firecoins

scottgsxr97 said:


> Choosing science doesn’t mean you can’t believe in God.  I know quite a few people involved in science professions and are very religious.


 They choose to ignore a lack of physical evidence and believe in faith.  Faith is the opposite of what science relies on.  I put faith in faith. Many scientists have flat out rejected religion.  



> Science is just us trying to reverse engineer what God created.


No!  There is just so much wrong with this statement. First science does not accept any deity of any religion. Second your statment assumes Science is reverse engineering the Judeo/Christian god.  Non Judeo/Christian scientists are reverse engineering a god they don't believe in? It just doesn't make sense.  

We can go on but this would be locked very quickly.


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## EMERG2011

Honestly, I've struggled with my faith for years. One one hand, I believe in science, evolution, and the power of modern medicine. On the other hand, like has been said beforehand, there is something intangible, undetectable, and generally beyond our comprehension in a human. Call it a soul, a chi, katra, whatever - I believe that there is something after all this, and when we lose someone, their body is dead, but a piece of them, and their consceousness, lives on in an elysian afterlife. 

Theres a line from Grey's Anatomy (forgive the reference, but it works) in regards to faith, and kinda sums up my general opinion - "I have to believe. To do what I do, and to see what I see, I have to believe that there is something more beyond this life."


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## Ridryder911

_"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."..Albert Einstein_

I have more to comment, but it will have to wait. 


R/r 911


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## firecoins

Ridryder911 said:


> _"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."..Albert Einstein_
> 
> I have more to comment, but it will have to wait.
> 
> 
> R/r 911





			
				Einstein said:
			
		

> About God, I cannot accept any concept based on the authority of the Church. As long as I can remember, I have resented mass indocrination. I do not believe in the fear of life, in the fear of death, in blind faith. I cannot prove to you that there is no personal God, but if I were to speak of him, I would be a liar. I do not believe in the God of theology who rewards good and punishes evil. My God created laws that take care of that. His universe is not ruled by wishful thinking, but by immutable laws.



—W. Hermanns, Einstein and the Poet—In Search of the Cosmic Man (Branden Press, Brookline Village, Mass., 1983), p.132, quoted in Jammer, p.123.


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## firetender

daedalus said:


> I find myself in a current state of non belief and I feel like I would be better off finding faith again.



I think our Brother here is offering us a conflict that many of us go through. I don't know that he's looking for arguments on one side or the other of faith vs. mechanics. The struggle for him is the effects the work is having on his faith.

How can we contribute to his finding what he needs? How can we be useful as healers to help him find HIS answers?

I think EMERG2011 identified a jumping off point for the conversation (and EVERYTHING can be a teacher, even the tube): "To do what I do, and to see what I see, I have to believe that there is something more beyond this life."

What gives you the support you need to do what you do, and see what you see? And how could that be of support to Daedalus?


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## BossyCow

Daedalus, I found that my biggest problem with faith was my insistance on finding an existing system or group who's tenets I could accept. I was looking for an existing structure that coincided with my personal truths. 

I ended up deciding that my faith didn't have to have a name, title, organization, logo or rule book. My faith is constantly evolving as I learn and grow and experience life. Just because it doesn't fit into someone else's mold doesn't mean it isn't faith or isn't valid. 

Understand that what you practice as an individual is important because of the importance you give it in your life and your interactions with others. While others are more comfortable with a more fundamentalist, structured environment, they are generally those who's lives are generally more structured as a whole. There's a lot of beliefs out there and I do not believe the human soul is created for the one size fits all belief system.


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## Jon

As Firetender said - this has come up before:

I've actually merged the 2 threads that came up as being related - The original topic was actually about a news story.

We've had some debates on this in the past - but lets look at it again... We've got new members, and a lot of us have changed over the last 2 years... so I'm sure we'll see some changes in positions.


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## motownems

I have heard that one of the basics at my service keeps a Bible in his jump bag. I’ve never seen it though so it is probably just scuttlebutt.


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