# Off-duty Boston EMT saves life



## Jay114 (Aug 17, 2007)

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/08/14/off_duty_medic_races_to_shooting/


----------



## MMiz (Aug 17, 2007)

That's awesome.  Boston is one of my favorite cities, and Boston EMS is one of the best in the nation.


----------



## Ridryder911 (Aug 17, 2007)

MMiz said:


> Boston EMS is one of the best in the nation.



According to whom? That is highly debatable. Even from those of Boston EMS. .. 

R/r 911


----------



## MMiz (Aug 18, 2007)

Ridryder911 said:


> According to whom? That is highly debatable. Even from those of Boston EMS. ..
> 
> R/r 911


It is my understanding that Boston EMS is one of the most selective services to join.  It's also my understanding that they're relatively progressive system.


----------



## firecoins (Aug 18, 2007)

should off duty members be buffing the scene of gunshot victims?


----------



## Thanach (Aug 21, 2007)

MMiz said:


> It is my understanding that Boston EMS is one of the most selective services to join.  It's also my understanding that they're relatively progressive system.



They only hire at the basic level, even if you are a paramedic, they'll hire you only as a basic, but they pay their basics around $20/hr to start. You have to take a written exam, go through a physical ability test, past a three tier interview system, and then you get hired, if you're lucky

After being hired, you go through Boston EMS Academy, 3 months of 8 hour days, 5 days a week, paid, of course. After that they go out on the field in three person ambulance crews, two new employees, and a preceptor, they do three of these sets, each with a different new employee and a different preceptor, and each one is, i believe, 4 weeks ( i may be wrong on the length of time) after that they are out of probation, and have a year to move inside city limits. 

Oh, and no, I'm not an employee there, wish I was though, but the rent in Boston is prohibitive...


----------



## Flight-LP (Aug 21, 2007)

An off duty employee who disregards his own personal safety and enters a potentially unsafe scene, ESPECIALLY a shooting, is no hero in my book. Idiot, in my mind, would be more descriptive.

Flame if you wish, but the unfortunate reality is that bad things happen to good people (and bad for that matter). But regardless of what happens, I am a firm believer in going home to my family after shift. Someone elses emergency will NEVER compromise my safety if within my control. Thought they taught that in EMT class..........................


----------



## firecoins (Aug 21, 2007)

Flight-LP said:


> An off duty employee who disregards his own personal safety and enters a potentially unsafe scene, ESPECIALLY a shooting, is no hero in my book. Idiot, in my mind, would be more descriptive.
> 
> Flame if you wish, but the unfortunate reality is that bad things happen to good people (and bad for that matter). But regardless of what happens, I am a firm believer in going home to my family after shift. Someone elses emergency will NEVER compromise my safety if within my control. Thought they taught that in EMT class..........................



that is about my thoughts.  If I knew the shooter was gone, I would have no problem.


----------



## Flight-LP (Aug 21, 2007)

firecoins said:


> that is about my thoughts.  If I knew the shooter was gone, I would have no problem.



I still wouldn't have gone to the scene. Off duty means off duty. I'm not being paid, I'm not covered under protocols, I have no equipment, and I am not covered under the company's liability insurance should something happen to me. Not worth it, there will be plenty of patients for me on my next shift..................


----------



## Flight-LP (Aug 21, 2007)

MMiz said:


> It is my understanding that Boston EMS is one of the most selective services to join.  It's also my understanding that they're relatively progressive system.



No not so much..........

Any system that believes there is a benefit by reducing your ability to perform is far from progressive. Their pay sucks, residency requirements are restrictive and cost prohibitive, their protocols only average, they talk funny, and their units are ugly (just my thoughts though.......)

No one is going to tell me that I have to live in one of the most expensive cities in the US, then tell my I am demoted to an EMT-Basic, and then only pay me $650 / week for my training. They're smoking crack!


----------



## Ridryder911 (Aug 21, 2007)

That was my opinion too Flight,  after talking on line and reading comments from some, I was never impressed. I am sure there is plenty of highly educated and excellent medics from there. My opinion was based from talking to ER Doc's and surgeons, and flight nurses/medics from that area as well. Never heard any thing about progressive treatment, rather the opposite. 

I personally, am not impressed with jumping through hoops to prove someone. If they passed the license, and  attend their orientation, and hiring process, then one should be able to perform patient care. It sounds too much like a "good ole boy" type of performance. Tradition and having to measure up, type mentality. Our job is important, and especially to provide excellent care, but this is not rocket science either, and after discussing treatment regime with some on line, if that is a representation, I am not overwhelmed. 

R/r 911


----------



## Jay114 (Aug 22, 2007)

Being from the Boston area, I chuckled when I heard it said "they talk funny", and I can't speak to most of the other criticisms about Boston EMS, as I have no experience either in it or with any members of it. However, the biggest problem I have with their rules, besides the effective demoting, is the requirement to move inside Boston city limits to work for them. Is that a normal requirement in big city EMS? Seems like they would pass on many a good Basic and Paramedic by forcing folks to move.


----------



## firecoins (Aug 22, 2007)

FDNY does not have as strict a residency requirement.  As long as you live in the NY, tristate area can you work there.  This makes sense.  Who is going to commute from Boston to work in New York?  Okay the paramedics will.


----------



## Jon (Aug 26, 2007)

Just to get back on topic... it sounds like he was in uniform, to the point of having a radio, and was driving home from a special event... so he may have considered himself "on duty" still... and if he did have a radio... he might have been advised that the scene was safe... any further info?


----------



## Flight-LP (Aug 28, 2007)

He was off duty in his POV...............


----------



## Airwaygoddess (Aug 28, 2007)

Here is a thought, a small child still has his mother.......
Not that what this person did was smartest, ( as far as personal safety) but in the end the situation had a good outcome.  A lesson that has been learned for both sides.


----------



## KEVD18 (Aug 28, 2007)

MMiz said:


> ...Boston EMS is one of the most selective services to join....




calling bs to a point. to get on the dept, you need only a pulse a ticket and a passing score on the exam. this evidenced by some of the retards i know that got acceptance letters the last round of hirings. 

now, staying on the dept is a whole diff story. there are a few places you can get the axe till your out of your probie phase. first, they can boot you right from the academy, fairly well without reason. secon, anyone of your preceptors can merely say, he just wont work out and your toast. then your a probie for a year. a whole year. fart in the direction of your div chief and your history. after all that if you make it out of your probie period, your a city employee making a damn good wage relative to the rest of the state. brand new gear and many other perks.

progressive: they are very prograssive in ma, but as we all know ma is behind the times from the rest of the country. bems is one of the only services in eastern ma(possibly the whole state but im only faminliar with eastern) that can rsi. they are doing the field trial for cpap, ez-io fentanyl. maybe sop in other state, but way ahead of the game for ma.


----------



## Jon (Sep 8, 2007)

Flight-LP said:


> He was off duty in his POV...............


Was he returning to a station or heading home? Did he have a portable?


----------



## PArescueEMT (Sep 8, 2007)

Airwaygoddess said:


> Here is a thought, a small child still has his mother.......
> Not that what this person did was smartest, ( as far as personal safety) but in the end the situation had a good outcome.  A lesson that has been learned for both sides.



Agreed... Dumbass, yet lucky, medic. Even on Psych calls, we wait for PD before we go in.

As for Jon's comment... How do you know that he didn't own his own radio, or a Department issued radio?

No matter what, that is a situation where i would not respond POV. Ever. I don't know 1. if the scene is safe 2. whet she has 3. Where the nearest bus is, and 4. If she is the standard sue happy american and is gonna come after me for botching her suicide attempt.

I'm glad that the kid still has his mommy, but the medic needs discipline.


----------



## Flight-LP (Sep 8, 2007)

Jon said:


> Was he returning to a station or heading home? Did he have a portable?



Does it really matter? He was dumb, plain and simple..........


----------



## Airwaygoddess (Sep 9, 2007)

No, dumb is if he goes around and does it again.  This time he might not be so lucky and get killed, or worse, maimed and crippled for life.  There is something to think about.........


----------



## Glorified (Sep 11, 2007)

_McCay, a 13-year veteran who has been with Boston EMS for 3 1/2 years, had just gone off duty, and when the call came in, he briefly considered driving past the scene of the shooting.

"You don't know what's going on," he said. "A scene like that, it can become very, very difficult to control."

He also worried the shooter might return.

"I initially was hesitant to stop, but it's something I would want someone to do for my mother, my father, or my brother," he said._


He took scene safety into consideration, but probably at that particular moment felt compelled to help.  He's most likely been in a similar situation before, and passed by, figuring his colleagues would respond.  I think it's unfair to call him a dumbass, because he acknowledged scene safety but something made him stop while off duty that particular time.


----------



## sdadam (Sep 12, 2007)

I hope I die trying to save the life of a mother, gunned down in front of her son.


----------



## ffemt8978 (Sep 12, 2007)

sdadam said:


> I hope I die trying to save the life of a mother, gunned down in front of her son.



Remind me not to ride with you then.  I hope I die in my bed, sound asleep and in a peaceful manner at a very ripe old age.


----------



## Ridryder911 (Sep 12, 2007)

sdadam said:


> I hope I die trying to save the life of a mother, gunned down in front of her son.



I much rather die from a jealous husband, when I am a 103! lol 

No one thinks highly of a fool.... He is just lucky that it worked out, taking needless chances is not smart.. period. 

R/R 911


----------



## RichmondMedik (Sep 13, 2007)

KEVD18 said:


> after all that if you make it out of your probie period, your a city employee making a damn good wage relative to the rest of the state. brand new gear and many other perks.


 

I do believe if a little research is done you will find that Bsoton University actually owns the EMS system -- so they are basically a private company and not a city agency


----------



## Flight-LP (Sep 13, 2007)

sdadam said:


> I hope I die trying to save the life of a mother, gunned down in front of her son.



Do what this moron did and blaze into an unsecured scene playing captain hero and eventually you will.........................


----------



## KEVD18 (Sep 16, 2007)

RichmondMedik said:


> I do believe if a little research is done you will find that Bsoton University actually owns the EMS system -- so they are basically a private company and not a city agency




true to a point. while bems is technically listed as a private compamny, they are city employees with city benefits paying into the city retirement and belonging to the city union etc etc


----------



## crash_cart (Sep 26, 2007)

*Who me?, I didn't start the fire... *

I have to say that I'm remembering a ton of threads on this site when reading our holy grail _Prehospital_ 8th edition book. B) Like anything else that is emergency related, the situtation and what to do is not a simple "yes" or "no."  In some states, off-duty folks have to respond, The article leads me to conclude that this guy's state wasn't one of them.  When you are off duty, you can respond and carry out care what any non-EMT trained person could do on scene.  The only question here to me has to do with scene safety.  It looks as if he judged that it was a random event and that the scene was safe for him to work on her.  Unless he had to wait for law enforcement to secure the site first, I'd say he did the right thing.  *Flight-LP's* concerns about this are very much on target, will reserve further judgment until the issue is fully covered in class.  :beerchug:


----------



## disassociative (Sep 26, 2007)

#1 Rule of an EMS Scene: DO NOT CREATE MORE CASUALTIES

1st EMT Commandment: SCENE SAFETY. PERIOD.


----------



## BossyCow (Sep 26, 2007)

See the trauma... don't be the trauma!


----------



## wolfwyndd (Sep 28, 2007)

Clearly, this is a judgement call with arguments both for and against what he did.  Had it been me . . . . . . . . I don't know.  

The jurisdiction I run in doesn't have much in the way of shootings.  In the four years I've been running as an EMT, I can only recall us have ONE shooting and (fortunately) I was on duty and it was a police involved shooting to begin with so LEO wouldn't let us in until the scene was safe.  

That being said, I HAVE shown up to accident calls while I'm technically 'off - duty' which can sometimes be just as dangerous.  For our jurisdiction, not only are you ALLOWED to show up on calls when you're off duty, you're ENCOURAGED to show up on calls when you're off duty.  One of the things you understand going into a mostly volunteer EMS dept.  We have ONE ambulance that's staffed by full timers and ONE ambulance that is completely and totally staffed by volunteers.  

Guess this argument can play out either way depending on what your local jurisdiction is like.  While I'm not sure I'd call the man a hero for running into a potentially dangerous scene, I WOULD point out that one woman is now alive because of what he did.  Do the ends justify the means?  You decide for yourself.


----------



## jwalsh (Oct 11, 2007)

Flight-LP said:


> No not so much..........
> 
> Any system that believes there is a benefit by reducing your ability to perform is far from progressive. Their pay sucks, residency requirements are restrictive and cost prohibitive, their protocols only average, they talk funny, and their units are ugly (just my thoughts though.......)
> 
> No one is going to tell me that I have to live in one of the most expensive cities in the US, then tell my I am demoted to an EMT-Basic, and then only pay me $650 / week for my training. They're smoking crack!




YOUR ONLY MAD BECAUSE YOUR NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO WORK THERE


----------



## jwalsh (Oct 11, 2007)

In regards to the post on this subject I work at BEMS and was on duty the night this happened and at the hospital when the patient was brought in to clarify what happened he was not jumpin call he just left from the station from a detail he was doing he had his radio off the shooting victim was 2 blocks away in the middle of the road he did not know of it and it wasnt like a shootout he drove into it was a stray bullet that hit her from down the street in the neck. Now please do not pass judgment on him for stopping If you had seen the amount of blood on her 4 year old kid and the ground that lady was lucky he was on his way home from work


----------



## Ridryder911 (Oct 11, 2007)

jwalsh said:


> YOUR ONLY MAD BECAUSE YOUR NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO WORK THERE



Okay, I highly suggest if your going to cut someone down, you might  really attempt to make a point where we can read it without deciphering it. Punctuiation and grammar makes it easier for us to read your post and understand your thoughts.

The other is scene safety is the most important aspect off or on duty. I don't care where or when. 

In regards in to Boston's EMS, you just proved our point. Anyone that has been in EMS has heard and read about their reputation and history. Now, I do know that FlightLP service was honored nationally for reducing deaths (yes, scientifically) and as well Houston EMS is known for decades as being very progressive and having some of the best benefits and pay for a large metro EMS service. 

R/r 911


----------



## VentMedic (Oct 11, 2007)

BossyCow said:


> See the trauma... don't be the trauma!



I love that!!   

That was one of the first things we learned in EMT-B class and it was emphasized throughout Paramedic school.

Does that saying come on a T-Shirt?B)


----------



## Flight-LP (Oct 11, 2007)

jwalsh said:


> YOUR ONLY MAD BECAUSE YOUR NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO WORK THERE



Yeah, thats it...................

Not mad. Never applied, and if you actually took a moment to internalize what I wrote, you would see a clear reason as to why I never applied. 

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go see my therapist due to my emotional turmoil that your poorly attempted cutdown has inflicted...........


----------



## Meursault (Oct 11, 2007)

jwalsh said:


> YOUR ONLY MAD BECAUSE YOUR NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO WORK THERE



Or, since you insist we talk funny:
"Youah only mad cause youah not good enough to work theah."

Disclaimer: I think that rendition of the Boston accent is stupid, I rarely meet people that sound anything like that, and I stubbornly refuse to patronize any restaurant that lists "chowdah" on its menu.


----------



## crash_cart (Oct 11, 2007)

MrConspiracy said:


> Or, since you insist we talk funny:
> "Youah only mad cause youah not good enough to work theah."
> 
> Disclaimer: I think that rendition of the Boston accent is stupid, I rarely meet people that sound anything like that, and I stubbornly refuse to patronize any restaurant that lists "chowdah" on its menu.



FUGHEDABOUDIIIIIT!


----------



## Thanach (Oct 12, 2007)

MrConspiracy said:


> Or, since you insist we talk funny:
> "Youah only mad cause youah not good enough to work theah."
> 
> Disclaimer: I think that rendition of the Boston accent is stupid, I rarely meet people that sound anything like that, and I stubbornly refuse to patronize any restaurant that lists "chowdah" on its menu.



I can honestly say, that I am not from Boston, but about 20 miles south of the city, and I do sound much like that, the letter "R" really isn't in my vocabulary 
(at least in the traditional boston sense, car is pronounced as if it was spelt kah, but carrot is still carrot), and all of that good stuff...

I also talk fast, very fast. <_<


----------



## ffemt8978 (Oct 12, 2007)

Play nice everyone...


----------



## Meursault (Oct 12, 2007)

If you look it up on Wikipedia, there's some lengthy linguistics crap about the non-rhotic R.

I grew up on the South Coast, so I have a slightly different accent that generally doesn't come out, unless I'm angry or talking casually. My roommate last year wouldn't stop commenting on pronunciations like "New Beffud" or "draaa" for "drawer".

Also, this thread has officially derailed.


----------



## Chimpie (Oct 12, 2007)

MrConspiracy said:


> Also, this thread has officially derailed.


 





I have to agree.  Let's bring it back on track please.


----------



## DisasterMedTech (Oct 13, 2007)

Flight-LP said:


> An off duty employee who disregards his own personal safety and enters a potentially unsafe scene, ESPECIALLY a shooting, is no hero in my book. Idiot, in my mind, would be more descriptive.
> 
> Flame if you wish, but the unfortunate reality is that bad things happen to good people (and bad for that matter). But regardless of what happens, I am a firm believer in going home to my family after shift. Someone elses emergency will NEVER compromise my safety if within my control. Thought they taught that in EMT class..........................



There is a point where theory ends and fact begins. When people act over and above their duties, they are not thinking about being a hero. They are thinking that they see a fellow human being in dire trouble and they act. Its as simple as that. There is NO SUCH THING AS A SAFE SCENE. This is a notion that MUST be taught to new EMS providers. You may believe a scene is safe and at the time you enter it, it may well be. But they change in the blink of an eye. By its very nature, the job we do is extraordinarily dangerous. There are some statistics that say that there are more EMS providers killed in the line of duty each year that police officers.

Everyone wants to go home in at the end of their tour. Its silly to imply that someone doesnt. I would not want a partner who would not give his last full measure to help someone nor would I ever hire a person that I didnt believe would. Yes our safety comes first, but again, there is more to it than that. You have to ask yourself what really needs to happen here. Do I need to risk injury or death to help someone else. In my field of study and practice of disaster and terror medicine, there is no safe scene. There are only scenes that are safer than some others. Its like safe sex vs safER sex.  This EMT did what he believed was his moral obligation to a fellow human being. There can be no fault found in that. Did he set out to be a hero? No. Is he?  Yes.

How copy?


----------



## sosborne (Oct 13, 2007)

*Idiot?*

Well... what an interesting topic.  Personally I think calling the "hero" an idiot was uncalled for.  I think we all have a tough job to do and that was an exceptionally tough decision to make that I'd say many in EMS have never had to make themselves.  How bout we leave the post action critique (bashing) to the media since they are the professionals in that arena.  We on the other hand should be focused on giving the fellow EMS worker the pat on the back he deserves for saving a life.  

I can't speak for the rest of you, but I took more than a little offence at the idiot remark because I am a former Air Force Pararescueman and if you think what he did makes him an idiot then you'd probably say I need to be committed for some of the stunts I and my fellow special ops medics have been called on to do recently.  It's a calculated risk, and we know that every time we respond to a call.  But that's why the pararescue motto ends with the words, "...these things we do, that OTHERS may live."  We know the cost.  We accept the risk.  Just because you wouldn't do it doesn't make what he did wrong, and it doesn't mean he is an idiot for accepting the risk.


----------



## DisasterMedTech (Oct 13, 2007)

OoohRah and Bravo Zulu!


----------



## Flight-LP (Oct 13, 2007)

sosborne said:


> Well... what an interesting topic.  Personally I think calling the "hero" an idiot was uncalled for.  I think we all have a tough job to do and that was an exceptionally tough decision to make that I'd say many in EMS have never had to make themselves.  How bout we leave the post action critique (bashing) to the media since they are the professionals in that arena.  We on the other hand should be focused on giving the fellow EMS worker the pat on the back he deserves for saving a life.
> 
> I can't speak for the rest of you, but I took more than a little offence at the idiot remark because I am a former Air Force Pararescueman and if you think what he did makes him an idiot then you'd probably say I need to be committed for some of the stunts I and my fellow special ops medics have been called on to do recently.  It's a calculated risk, and we know that every time we respond to a call.  But that's why the pararescue motto ends with the words, "...these things we do, that OTHERS may live."  We know the cost.  We accept the risk.  Just because you wouldn't do it doesn't make what he did wrong, and it doesn't mean he is an idiot for accepting the risk.



Actually quite the contrary. You are comparing apples to oranges. While I do agree that many PJ's do need to update their CT scan, offense should not be taken. You are the pride of the USAF. Having the honor of serving with the 352nd out of (at the time) RAF Alconbury, my hat is off to you. 

BUT........................

That in no way justifies an off duty EMT from entering a KNOWN violent and unsecured scene without law enforcement. The difference being that you as a PJ have received the very best in tactical and survival training. Joe Schmoe Boston EMT hasn't. He doesn't have the team to back him. He is not armed. He does not have immediate fire support. He has a pair of gloves, some 4x4's, and a prayer that the shooter doesn't return. Impulsitivity is a root cause in many combative deaths. When you allow impulse to clout your judgement, you let your guard down. At that point in time, you have already lost the battle. Maybe the perception of what I wrote is considered harsh, but there is absolutely no justification to accept the immediate risk of violence in civilian EMS. To do so, in my book, is suicidal and completely idiotic. Even in todays military, over half of the current conflicts have no bearing on the safety and security of our country. They are about oil, money, and politics, plain and simple. But that discussion is for another day................

Another train of thought...................

If you are off duty and stop to render aid, are you covered under your personal life insurance policy or the company's? Before you answer you may want to double check. You might be surprised to find out that your family will receive nothing due to your poor judgement. At least Uncle Sam will respect you and take care of your family............................................


----------



## Ridryder911 (Oct 13, 2007)

What is ironic, if he had been shot or killed, what we would had said... that he should had known better.. I call him lucky! I agree, with flight LP, that is NOT our primary job.. sorry, the definition of hero is too broad of a term, and definitely is used many times to make the grieving feel better. 


R/r 911


----------



## sosborne (Oct 17, 2007)

Flight-LP said:


> That in no way justifies an off duty EMT from entering a KNOWN violent and unsecured scene without law enforcement. The difference being that you as a PJ have received the very best in tactical and survival training. Joe Schmoe Boston EMT hasn't. He doesn't have the team to back him. He is not armed. He does not have immediate fire support. He has a pair of gloves, some 4x4's, and a prayer that the shooter doesn't return.



I must say I agree with you.  And I didn't mean to imply that I endorse his actions at all because I don't.  Even us PJ's sometimes wonder what we did to put ourselves in the precarious positions we get in (even with the support you mentioned it can get a little dicey).  My problem is just us being so harsh on the guy.  Did he make an impulsive decision that could have gotten him killed; absolutely!  I'd just rather leave the disciplinary action, and after action training to his superiors (and his mom; who I'm sure wanted to kick his A$$ when she heard about it).  I sure as heck wouldn't tell my mom what all I've done.  I'd sooner spend this winter in Afganistan than fight her.


----------



## TripsTer (Oct 20, 2007)

It's noble what this man did, but like Flight-LP says, it was indeed foolish. You just can't take a risk like that going into a scene of an assault without PD.

Just remember that the first priority is yourself. Because the patient can't cure themselves if you get hurt.


----------

