# 12 week accelerated Paramedic Program!!??



## boarder12

I was curious about some of the “accelerated” paramedic programs throughout the nation and came across this little gem located in Nebraska. A 12 WEEK!!! accelerated paramedic program at McCook community college in Nebraska. From what I hear these programs are looked down upon in the EMS community. From my research however the 12 weeks only includes the didactic portion of the program and the 400+ hours of field and clinical experience is to follow. It seems interesting that a school can teach a student paramedicine in 12 weeks. The school has a “high success rate” as it claims.

Any thoughts and comments about this?


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## usalsfyre

boarder12 said:


> It seems interesting that a school can teach a student paramedicine in 12 weeks.


How would you feel about a 6 month physician program? Now apply that feeling to a 12 week paramedic program. You can't teach the needed breadth of information to sufficient depth to safely practice as a paramedic in 12 weeks.


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## medicRob

boarder12 said:


> I was curious about some of the “accelerated” paramedic programs throughout the nation and came across this little gem located in Nebraska. A 12 WEEK!!! accelerated paramedic program at McCook community college in Nebraska. From what I hear these programs are looked down upon in the EMS community. From my research however the 12 weeks only includes the didactic portion of the program and the 400+ hours of field and clinical experience is to follow. It seems interesting that a school can teach a student paramedicine in 12 weeks. The school has a “high success rate” as it claims.
> 
> Any thoughts and comments about this?









Yes, don't do it. Know why they have a high success rate? Because they teach you how to take a test, not how to be a good paramedic. Anything worth doing is worth doing
right. I wouldn't be comfortable with a paramedic program that was less than a year.


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## JPINFV

medicRob said:


>



Always gotta laugh when Michael Jackson does blackface. After all...


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## medicstudent101

JPINFV said:


> Always gotta laugh when Michael Jackson does blackface. After all...



This is what happened after MJ gave Chuck Norris a bad look.


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## HotelCo

boarder12 said:


> It seems interesting that a school can teach a student paramedicine in 12 weeks.



They can't. Goto a real program.


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## 8jimi8

boarder12 said:


> I was curious about some of the “accelerated” paramedic programs throughout the nation and came across this little gem located in Nebraska. A 12 WEEK!!! accelerated paramedic program at McCook community college in Nebraska. From what I hear these programs are looked down upon in the EMS community. From my research however the 12 weeks only includes the didactic portion of the program and the 400+ hours of field and clinical experience is to follow. It seems interesting that a school can teach a student paramedicine in 12 weeks. The school has a “high success rate” as it claims.
> 
> Any thoughts and comments about this?



If these people have a high success rate its probably because the only intelligent person to take this class would already be an experienced medical provider.

Being able to digest a paramedic course in 12 weeks would require an already thorough understanding of body systems, problems and treatments.


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## medic417

Actually many that take and pass these diploma mills and then the NR are just the average fire fighter that has to get Paramedic to get/keep job.  They usually have no medical education beyond emt. 

I do not recommend these courses.


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## Veneficus

medicstudent101 said:


> This is what happened after MJ gave Chuck Norris a bad look.



If I looked like that after surgery, I think I would need large amounts of propofol too.


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## 8jimi8

Veneficus said:


> If I looked like that after surgery, I think I would need large amounts of propofol too.



So what was the deal with all the whitening?  Did i hear that he had vitiligo?


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## JPINFV

8jimi8 said:


> So what was the deal with all the whitening?  Did i hear that he had vitiligo?



That's what Wiki says, which, of course, makes me a [fatherless child] for making that joke. 

/Jackson going from black man to white woman will never get old.
//If his only problem was the vitiligo, then it wouldn't be funny, however it's not.


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## foxfire

I am three quarters through my medic course, and it has been tough learning it all. I can not imagine cramming it all into 12 weeks. Personally I would not suggest the short program. 
I do know someone that took a 15 week medic course and he is a good medic. But he had taken all sorts of A&P classes before hand and several years of basic field experience.  And even he does not suggest that route.
How much would you be able to retain after cramming that much info into your head. Cramming before exams works in a pinch but the info is not long term remembered.  The short course would be doing just that. A stressed and tired mind will not retain much.( speaking from experience :wacko


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## MrBrown

Gosh back in the 1990s Advanced Care Officer (Paramedic) took at least five years to obtain

Now, Intensive Care Paramedic takes at least six.

Obviously we're doing something wrong.


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## Chief Complaint

What does it say about the National Registry that somebody who took a 12 week course is able to pass their exam?


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## usalsfyre

Chief Complaint said:


> What does it say about the National Registry that somebody who took a 12 week course is able to pass their exam?



It says that it's a fairly basic exam that test the bare minimum as an entry to practice. I don't think the written is horrible, but I think the 'practicals" should be scrapped in favor of an oral exam similar to what physicians take for board certification.


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## MrBrown

Brown can consistently achieve quite a high score on the practice exams, except for those rubbish questions about which kind of radio is what and other useless crap.

Brown wouldn't doubt at all if one of our volunteer Technicians could pass that test.


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## Chief Complaint

MrBrown said:


> Brown can consistently achieve quite a high score on the practice exams, except for those rubbish questions about which kind of radio is what and other useless crap.
> 
> Brown wouldn't doubt at all if one of our volunteer Technicians could pass that test.




Lol.  I really wish they would usher out the type of questions that you are speaking of and replace them with more pertinent ones.


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## MrBrown

Some questions on cellular and systemic physiology and pathophysiology would be nice


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## MassEMT-B

Does a medic class thats shorter than my basic class sound like a good idea? I know it would be full time class but still.


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## Chief Complaint

MassEMT-B said:


> Does a medic class thats shorter than my basic class sound like a good idea? I know it would be full time class but still.




I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone around these parts who will honestly tell you that its a good idea.


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## MrBrown

There are several of these programs around; one in Nebraska, Indiana, Texas and Brown thinks one in Louisiana too.

The Texas program is actively used by the Houston Fire Department.

The program in Indiana is um, approved by CAAHEP? 

*Brown's head explodes*


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## MassEMT-B

Okay, that might have come out wrong.. it was suppose to be sarcastic.


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## izibo

Chief Complaint said:


> I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone around these parts who will honestly tell you that its a good idea.



I think it could be the right idea, for the right person. There are plenty of people with extensive medical backgrounds that would likely gouge their eyes out with a rusty spoon if they had to attend a traditional paramedic program. I really believe there is a role for condensed and online/hybrid medic programs, provided the students are a good fit for the program.

Of course, these also have the potential to go south in a heartbeat. You combine a student with little to no background or experience, run them through a program like this and you end up with a problem.


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## Zodiac

I think programs like these could possibly work for someone who already had a pretty extensive background in health care but I don't think the average person is cut out for absorbing so much information in such a short time frame. My brain would probably melt if I even attempted it. There's just not enough time to study and actually retain the information being learned. The hours might be the same but with a 12+ month program that meets twice a week (or whatever), you have time to actually study versus having nightly cram sessions.


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## jordanwilson

*accelerated medic program*

I will be taking the accelerated program at mccook community college, I think it will be much easier to learn the course if its full time and five days a week. a part time program would be very hard to retain all of the information i learned over a year ago without being out in the field. also i will be doing nothing but studying paramedicine and rooming with another paramedic student in the middle of nowhere nebraska. I honestly think that for the right person this program is a great fit, I also think that we will start to see a lot more of these programs popping up in the future. Not to mention that the Air Force trains their Pararescue special operators to national standards in six months from start to finish and most have no medical background what so ever and they are the best at what they do.


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## HotelCo

jordanwilson said:


> I will be taking the accelerated program at mccook community college, I think it will be much easier to learn the course if its full time and five days a week. a part time program would be very hard to retain all of the information i learned over a year ago without being out in the field. also i will be doing nothing but studying paramedicine and rooming with another paramedic student in the middle of nowhere nebraska. I honestly think that for the right person this program is a great fit, I also think that we will start to see a lot more of these programs popping up in the future. Not to mention that the Air Force trains their Pararescue special operators to national standards in six months from start to finish and most have no medical background what so ever and they are the best at what they do.


I disagree.


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## Handsome Robb

Army medics and civilian medics are not very similar....The have a huge huge huge emphasis on trauma, not so much on the medical side.


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## usalsfyre

jordanwilson said:


> I will be taking the accelerated program at mccook community college, I think it will be much easier to learn the course if its full time and five days a week.


And you have an inborn confirmation bias, as you will have a significant amount invested in this being the case. 



jordanwilson said:


> a part time program would be very hard to retain all of the information i learned over a year ago without being out in the field.


I would hardly call 4 days a week, 6-10 hours a day for 22 months (what my program was) part time. It was in depth, with a very high amount of repetition that is simply not possible in 12 weeks. 



jordanwilson said:


> also i will be doing nothing but studying paramedicine and rooming with another paramedic student in the middle of nowhere nebraska.


So what your telling me is it's great that you in the middle of  nowhere because your too immature to manage your study time? 



jordanwilson said:


> I honestly think that for the right person this program is a great fit,


Those who aren't really interesting in learning anything in depth and would rather just race through with a superficial understanding of paramedicine? Cause you know we don't have enough of those in EMS...


jordanwilson said:


> I also think that we will start to see a lot more of these programs popping up in the future.


God let's hope not



jordanwilson said:


> Not to mention that the Air Force trains their Pararescue special operators to national standards in six months from start to finish and most have no medical background what so ever and they are the best at what they do.


Ehhhh, trauma maybe. I think a very large number of PJs would admit they would be in over their heads with a complex cardiac patient. Also, last I heard the PJs were certifying at the I85 level now, not Paramedic as they were in the past (this has been two yearss ago though). 

The accelerated programs only exist to funnel out minimally qualified paramedics as fodder for FDs, low-rent privates, ect.


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## MrBrown

Once again

If you learn it all in 12 weeks why does it take six years to become an Intensive Care Paramedic here and in Australia and three years in the UK and Canada?


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## colafdp

MrBrown said:


> Once again
> 
> If you learn it all in 12 weeks why does it take six years to become an Intensive Care Paramedic here and in Australia and three years in the UK and Canada?



quality of education...coming from Canada I can't even possibly fathom a 12 week "paramedic" course or the "paramedics" they put out......


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## sweetpete

Wow....can't tell if it's "ego" or sincere concern for the quality of EMS that's causing such responses. I'm leaning toward the former.:unsure:

Pete


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## usalsfyre

sweetpete said:


> Wow....can't tell if it's "ego" or sincere concern for the quality of EMS that's causing such responses. I'm leaning toward the former.:unsure:


Work with some accelerated program graduates and then tell me what you think.

Since when did decreasing entry standards do good things to ANY profession? 

As far as ego, yes, I think having a college-based intensive training program in my background gives me a considerable leg up on a guy who tried to cram it all into one semester. I also think a physician learns a hell of a lot more in four years of med school than I learned in two years of medic school. What's your point?


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## ShotMedic

I think that a paramedics skills can be taught in 12 weeks no doubt IVs, ET, Reading EKGs,Etc. except for maybe starting IVs on the dehydrated 90yo heroin junkie..... When it comes to the confidence of field diagnosing and treating your everyday Medical call I agree that the 12 week program is just not enough time. I went to school out here in San Diego and our didactic class was around 7 months right around 22 weeks with a college A&P as a prereq. then 1 month in the hospital and 3 month internship. Then bam your out on your own making decisions. It is definitely nerve racking to say the least and the expectations are so high due to the professionalism we have gain over the years. None the less I have been confident in my skills and knowledge and maybe saved a life or two. Am I ready for everything the citizens throw at me? of course not but thats why we have CEUs right? If I could have created my perfect Paramedic Program I would have loved to have it start off the same with didactic with clinicals and internship mixed in at the same time. So I could apply my IN class knowledge with real life(that lil gray area). I wish I could have had a preceptor the whole time i was in school that took me under his/her wing to teach me not just to grade me. I feel as if the majority of preceptors is San Diego County expect you to be at the same level as them when your green as a green can be and fail a lot of students when they could honestly help them grow and flourish. Now would it be a lot easier for students in the field to prosper if they had the same education time as a DR? I dunno i think we have all scene some Docs in the field try to run a call.... So what do i think it takes to make a great Paramedic? I think if you have 2 years solid full time EMT-B experience (to learn the structure of EMS) add an Understanding of A&P,plus General Idea of Pharmacology, Minus your social life, and add A Salty Dog Paramedic Mentor= Successful Paramedic Student in class and as well as out in the field, wither your taking NREMT test or faced with the "real" test.


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## ExpatMedic0

ya...... cause I want ANYONE... RT, RN, Paramedic working on me after 12 weeks....


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## colafdp

ShotMedic said:


> I think that a paramedics skills can be taught in 12 weeks no doubt IVs, ET, Reading EKGs,Etc.



That goes without saying. You can teach anyone the practical parts, but it takes longer to put things together and know when to do them and when not to. 12 weeks is way too short imo


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## alphatrauma

Accelerated programs/courses [and their respective graduates] are like most things in life, you will have good ones and bad ones. I don't think anyone can just summarily dismiss all programs of the sort (or those who attend them) as inadequate. There are quite a few variables involved. 

I attended an accelerated (community college) Paramedic program, and what I found to be most egregious was that there were absolutely NO admission pre-requisites... other than having a high school diploma, no recent felonies, and current EMT certification. I do agree, that for most aspiring Paramedics, accelerated programs are probably not the way to go. That being said, there is a segment of the population that can flourish and excel in such a curriculum, *as long as they have the proper educational background/foundation* to build upon, as well as the aptitude for high paced learning.


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## jordanwilson

NVRob said:


> Army medics and civilian medics are not very similar....The have a huge huge huge emphasis on trauma, not so much on the medical side.



Thanks for the info, I did say airforce, but yes you are right, but point being that the military holds very high standards for any training. training someone with no medical background to paramedic in six months has worked for them


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## jordanwilson

I would hardly call 4 days a week, 6-10 hours a day for 22 months (what my program was) part time. It was in depth, with a very high amount of repetition that is simply not possible in 12 weeks. 

Then obviously you didnt attend a part time program and sorrry it takes you longer to learn things, also the 12 weeks is only the didactic portion and same amount of hours required for any other program


So what your telling me is it's great that you in the middle of  nowhere because your too immature to manage your study time? 
its this thing called life and a family and you apparently have neither so that wasnt a factor for you

Those who aren't really interesting in learning anything in depth and would rather just race through with a superficial understanding of paramedicine? Cause you know we don't have enough of those in EMS...

a lot of what you know you learn in the field and in depth in real life situtions not in a book



Ehhhh, trauma maybe. I think a very large number of PJs would admit they would be in over their heads with a complex cardiac patient. Also, last I heard the PJs were certifying at the I85 level now, not Paramedic as they were in the past (this has been two yearss ago though). 
a good friend of mine is a PJ NREMT-P and has been for 6 years

The accelerated programs only exist to funnel out minimally qualified paramedics as fodder for FDs, low-rent privates, ect.[/QUOTE]

the patch says nothing different wether it took you 2 years or 6 months to get it.


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## JPINFV

jordanwilson said:


> the patch says nothing different wether it took you 2 years or 6 months to get it.



Actually, that depends. An associates degree is required in some states to be licensed. So, yea, a person with a paramedic level education sans degree (such as the 6th week wonders) wouldn't be licensed as a paramedic, and therefore wouldn't have a paramedic patch to wear. Additionally, there's Texas which has an EMT-Paramedic and a Licensed Paramedic depending on just passing a course or having a degree.


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## sir.shocksalot

jordanwilson said:


> I would hardly call 4 days a week, 6-10 hours a day for 22 months (what my program was) part time. It was in depth, with a very high amount of repetition that is simply not possible in 12 weeks.
> 
> Then obviously you didnt attend a part time program and sorrry it takes you longer to learn things, also the 12 weeks is only the didactic portion and same amount of hours required for any other program


I suggest you use proper grammar and spelling if you intend to call out a respected poster as "slow". Also, the didactic portion is the MOST important portion of paramedic school, you can't apply knowledge in the field if you lack clinical knowledge of physiology and pathophysiology and how it applies to the prehospital provider. More time and care should be placed on the didactic portion than what we see currently in schools.



jordanwilson said:


> its this thing called life and a family and you apparently have neither so that wasnt a factor for you


We all have our little demons we have to deal with.


jordanwilson said:


> a lot of what you know you learn in the field and in depth in real life situtions not in a book


Have you worked in the field?
I agree that a portion of what you need to know must be learned in the field, but not before the prerequisite knowledge is there from a book, which can probably not be covered adequately in 12-weeks. Heck, today I spoke with a baby doctor and I asked him about the specificity of Homen's sign; the dude has been out of school for a week and was able to tell me all about the sign, how non-specific it is, and other assessment tools that are more specific. He didn't learn that through practice in the field, he read that in a book.



jordanwilson said:


> a good friend of mine is a PJ NREMT-P and has been for 6 years
> 
> 
> the patch says nothing different wether it took you 2 years or 6 months to get it.


Anyone from the military will completely agree that they would be over their heads with patient populations that they don't see: geriatrics and pediatrics (raisins and grapes in my book). Several military medics who are now civilian medics have told me that they never even saw a diabetic patient until they started working on a civilian ambulance.

You are correct in saying that a 12-week mill medic may end up with the same patch as a 2 year medic. However there is a significant difference in the caliber of a medic who's only interest was getting the patch through whatever means necessary vs one that had an interest in medicine. I know medics from 6-month programs who are great because they had a good science background, worked their a$$ off to learn as much as possible, and go above and beyond the first aid book (aka paramedic text book) and read more in-depth books, read new studies and scientific journals, as well as attended CEs (and paid attention). I know medics from the same program who are dumb as a rock because they: A) Didn't want to go but went because they want to be/stay a hosemonkey. b) Went to learn paramedicine but didn't have much of a science background, and as a result lacks a lot of the "whys" and "hows" to critically think beyond their protocols. OR C) Due to a gross lack of prerequisite course work and testing to get into paramedic school, were too dumb to be there in the first place.

I highly suggest you take a step back and evaluate yourself before leaping in to school. Do you have the knowledge and are you willing to keep up with new science to become and proficient provider of prehospital medicine. If not I highly recommend not going to any program, let alone one only 12-weeks long. Don't go to a program because it's short, your patients don't want a medic trained quickly, your reputable employer doesn't want one, and the profession doesn't need any more either. Go to a program because it's good, well respected, and puts out good medics who want to learn more; that's what your patients want, that's what employers want, and that's EXACTLY what this profession needs.


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## usalsfyre

jordanwilson said:


> Then obviously you didnt attend a part time program and sorrry it takes you longer to learn things, also the 12 weeks is only the didactic portion and same amount of hours required for any other program


Ahh yes, I'm to dumb to go to an accelerated program . Any thoughts there may have been more CONTENT in my medic program? 



jordanwilson said:


> its this thing called life and a family and you apparently have neither so that wasnt a factor for you


It's true, I was a college student when I was in paramedic school. However, being a husband and father now I would find it far, far harder to sequester myself for three months than attend college part-time. 



jordanwilson said:


> a lot of what you know you learn in the field and in depth in real life situtions not in a book


Real patients don't read text books, it's true. But to say the background info is unimportant is a farce. Otherwise how do you know WHAT your looking at? It's like the old "experience" argument. Experience without knowledge is useless, otherwise your doing the same thing over and over again. 



jordanwilson said:


> a good friend of mine is a PJ NREMT-P and has been for 6 years


As I said, I wasn't sure about this. I had a paramedic instructor who was a former PJ. I have a huge amount of respect for them, but the focus is different than what you need for a typical EMS patient. 

What really tells me everything I need to know about you attitude is....


jordanwilson said:


> the patch says nothing different wether it took you 2 years or 6 months to get it.


I really don't give two sh!ts what my patch says. I want to have a knowledge base of sufficient depth and breadth to safely and effectively treat patients. Considering that some EMS services have new-hire academies longer than 12 weeks, I don't think the ultra-short programs can provide this. What they can do is pump out someone who has memorized enough to pass a test. However, the question that the patient cares about is do they remember enough six months later when presented with a complicated presentation to treat it safely?


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## AnthonyM83

MassEMT-B said:


> Does a medic class thats shorter than my basic class sound like a good idea? I know it would be full time class but still.


 Shorter in terms of class hours or total length. Makes a difference.

Is it 12 weeks total or 12 weeks of classroom, then hospital clinicals, then field internship? Does it specify?


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## fast65

jordanwilson said:


> Then obviously you didn*'*t attend a part time program*,* and *sorry* it takes you longer to learn things, also the 12 weeks is only the didactic portion and same amount of hours required for any other program
> 
> it*'*s this thing called life and a family and you apparently have neither so that wasnt a factor for you
> 
> a lot of what you know you learn in the field and in depth in real life *situations* not in a book
> 
> the patch says nothing different *whether* it took you 2 years or 6 months to get it.



First of all, I posted corrections in bold, please review them and apply the concepts to subsequent posts. 

Second, you might want to avoid calling one of the most intelligent posters on here "slow", others may look down upon that. There a plenty of people who have a job and a family and are still able to attend a good program. My program is a two year AAS program and there are a few people with a job and families that attend it full time.

You're absolutely correct about learning a lot of things in the field...you learn a lot of bad habits, you learn the good habits from the book. You need a good foundation to build upon if you're going to learn anything from experience. Quite honestly, I don't want some medic to show up and give me Adensoine with a HR of 50 and say "oops, I guess I missed that chapter in the book, but now I learned something". 

Sure, the patch might not say anything different, and I suppose if the patch is all that matters to you then go for the 12 week program. However, there's A LOT to be said for a medic who went through the trouble of getting a proper education.


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## rhan101277

When a patient asks you how long you have been doing this just say.

I'm not a paramedic but I stayed at a holiday inn express for 12 weeks.


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## medicRob

jordanwilson said:


> I would hardly call 4 days a week, 6-10 hours a day for 22 months (what my program was) part time. It was in depth, with a very high amount of repetition that is simply not possible in 12 weeks.
> 
> Then obviously you didnt attend a part time program and sorrry it takes you longer to learn things, also the 12 weeks is only the didactic portion and same amount of hours required for any other program
> 
> 
> So what your telling me is it's great that you in the middle of  nowhere because your too immature to manage your study time?
> its this thing called life and a family and you apparently have neither so that wasnt a factor for you
> 
> Those who aren't really interesting in learning anything in depth and would rather just race through with a superficial understanding of paramedicine? Cause you know we don't have enough of those in EMS...
> 
> a lot of what you know you learn in the field and in depth in real life situtions not in a book
> 
> 
> 
> Ehhhh, trauma maybe. I think a very large number of PJs would admit they would be in over their heads with a complex cardiac patient. Also, last I heard the PJs were certifying at the I85 level now, not Paramedic as they were in the past (this has been two yearss ago though).
> a good friend of mine is a PJ NREMT-P and has been for 6 years
> 
> The accelerated programs only exist to funnel out minimally qualified paramedics as fodder for FDs, low-rent privates, ect.



the patch says nothing different wether it took you 2 years or 6 months to get it.[/QUOTE]


You sound like someone who is butthurt because the program you chose is sub-par, and instead of admitting that, you get defensive. There are many like you, you are not the first. I am guessing you couldn't get into a standard medic program for some reason or another, went the 12 week route (aka Patch Factory <--- say what you will, it is a patch factory.), and came here looking for justification and warm fuzzies... sorry bro, you aren't going to get them here. 

Get with a REAL program.


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## Tommerag

jordanwilson said:


> Then obviously you didnt attend a part time program and sorrry it takes you longer to learn things, also the 12 weeks is only the didactic portion and same amount of hours required for any other program



So I figured if you had class 5 days a week 8 hours a day for 12 weeks that is only 480 hours. My class is for didactic is 640 hours, not exactly the same amount of hours as your 12 week program.


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## boarder12

I can see my post has grabbed a lot of attention. 

To explain deeper on the program I went as far to call the program director himself to help clarify about the program see below:

12 weeks, 5 sessions a week from 0800-1800= 600 hours.
Plus a few Saturday sessions so I'd say roughly around 650 hours.

This does not include the clinical and field internships, those are for the student to set up with either the colleges contracts (AMR in Omaha etc.) or to return to their home town/state and finish the required hours there (student would need to find a hospital and ambulance company to accept him/her as a trainee and be placed with a preceptor).

The program has around the same hours as any full time year long program.

 Another example of an accelerated program is Mt. SAC, 

29 weeks total, 16 didactic and the rest= field and clinical internships.

However it is highly regarded as one of the toughest programs in California because of the pre-course and self study work required before the actual program starts. 

As an aspiring medic I I am doing whatever I can to get in to Mt. SAC, I have a friend who I just found out will be attending the 12 week accelerated program. I wish him the best of luck, although it would not be my first choice, having experience as a former army medic he is used to the high paced learning environment. This program is most likely a good fit for some and a horrible idea to others. 

We all go through similar training whether it is EMT-B or Paramedic... and my opinion has always been you get out of it what you put into it.


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## Tommerag

Class 10 hours a day for 12 weeks straight? No thanks


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## izibo

Tommerag said:


> Class 10 hours a day for 12 weeks straight? No thanks



I think the point is, however, that there are plenty of people who would consider 4 hours of class twice a week for a year and a half, plus clinicals, to be much, much worse. I really don't even like the 'hours' type checkoffs. 800 hours in a terrible medic program with cringe worthy faculty does not equal 800 hours in a fantastic one with great instructors. I personally feel, as I mentioned before, that there is a 'right program' for the 'right student.' This includes 12 week accelerated programs, although I would never be able to do a program like that due to family issues.

I think the debate on the merits of a particular program are not nearly as important on the standards we implement as a profession regarding who can practice and who needs remediation (or simply can't cut it). If people are so concerned about patch mills, than we need to get tougher. Make NREMT significantly more difficult, both written and practical. Require a tougher accreditation process than what is currently being implemented. Make all paramedics retest every license cycle in addition to completing continued education to ensure retention of knowledge.


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## systemet

izibo said:


> If people are so concerned about patch mills, than we need to get tougher. Make NREMT significantly more difficult, both written and practical. Require a tougher accreditation process than what is currently being implemented. Make all paramedics retest every license cycle in addition to completing continued education to ensure retention of knowledge.



Perhaps part of the solution would not be accrediting programs that only provide 480 hours of didactic instruction?


----------



## fast65

Tommerag said:


> Class 10 hours a day for 12 weeks straight? No thanks



I actually had a conversation about this with some of my classmates on our lunch break from PALS today. One of them brought up the point that after the first four or five hours their attention would just completely disappear, I mean there's only so much lecture/lab that you can handle in a day.

In my opinion a 12 week program is like cramming before a big exam, sure, you'll remember the knowledge long enough to pass the test, but soon thereafter you will forget a lot of it.


----------



## Handsome Robb

Grumpy grumpy grumpy. 

They were talking about extending my program to 18 months instead of 12. Probably wont happen until after my class is finished, although they did move our didactic up to closer to 700 hours, then with the clincals and internship added on the program ends up near 1500 hours total. Compared to the rest of the world, not a whole lot of time...

I don't understand how people complain about the pay when there isn't the education to merit the raise in pay.


----------



## systemet

Just wondering if anyone knows where I can go to get a BScN nursing degree in 12 weeks? Or my RRT?  Or perhaps a PA?

Actually, scratch that, I'd like to become a licensed plumber.  Can anyone tell me where I can go to do that in less time than it takes to become a paramedic?


----------



## MrBrown

Again, if other nations require three to six years of education and experience to reach ALS level, how can 12 weeks be seen as acceptable?

*Browns head explodes


----------



## fast65

MrBrown said:


> *Browns head explodes




Ummmmmm, hold pressure?


----------



## alphatrauma

MrBrown said:


> Again, if other nations require three to six years of education and experience to reach ALS level, how can 12 weeks be seen as acceptable?



That's easy... the U.S. is just plain superior, and we don't give a **** about how other nations do things.


----------



## medicRob

alphatrauma said:


> That's easy... the U.S. is just plain superior, and we don't give a **** about how other nations do things.



or one could also say, "We don't believe in credibility because we know that we're freakin incredible."


----------



## JPINFV

alphatrauma said:


> That's easy... the U.S. is just plain superior, and we don't give a **** about how other nations do things.


----------



## fortsmithman

I'm always amazed of what the training is for ALS in the USA.


----------



## ShotMedic

*Johnny an ROy*

What would the EMS world be, With out Johnny And Roy....( i think they were from the USA)..... most dialed medics ever


----------



## Cormaid2

*MCC 12 Week Paramedic Program Is The Real Deal!*

I took the 12 week class at MCC. It was long and very stressful but the best instruction I have ever had. They teach the class several times a year and know the material and are VERY professional educators. If your not willing to dedicate 100% of your time to improving yourself than this is not the way for you to go. If you are, get ahold of Kathy and Bob. It was the best decision I ever made.


----------



## jimmylesaint

I think a lot of egos are getting all trodden on here! Egos kill .
I'm a sports physio, pitch side for 10yrs in contact sport, also an EMT-B. For me to do a 3yr paramedic degree would be wasteful. A 12 week theory program would be better and still repetitive in some areas for me.
So for people who have life experiences and degrees in similar medical sciences eg nursing especially, these shorter courses are ideal and more than sufficient to produce qualified, efficient, safe paramedic practitioners especially after the clinical side has been completed. 
Perhaps the graduates will not be as good as some on this forum with huge egos- or do we call that "God complex" in medicine?:blink: But i doubt anyone is as good as them
In UK they have branched into 3yr degrees for paramedics BUT you still can train on the job and become a paramedic that way. Different NHS areas have different rules-South West Ambulance will take EMT-B/I/P. Also the kids these days are getting smarter quicker.
Personally i am looking to register with Crowder College in Missouri.


----------



## Christopher

jimmylesaint said:


> I think a lot of egos are getting all trodden on here! Egos kill .



Generally the ego which kills are those that believe anything less than a degree length program is appropriate for the responsibilities of a paramedic. We're laughably under educated.



jimmylesaint said:


> I'm a sports physio, pitch side for 10yrs in contact sport, also an EMT-B. For me to do a 3yr paramedic degree would be wasteful. A 12 week theory program would be better and still repetitive in some areas for me.



We spent 12 weeks (~200 hours) on cardiology alone.



jimmylesaint said:


> So for people who have life experiences and degrees in similar medical sciences eg nursing especially, these shorter courses are ideal and more than sufficient to produce qualified, efficient, safe paramedic practitioners especially after the clinical side has been completed.



The only "medical sciences" degrees that would likely be applicable are those in nursing (ADN/BSN). A bridge program for RN's to become Paramedics is logical and appropriate. If (and when) paramedics received degrees, I'd expect a bridge program in the other direction to be appropriate as well.



jimmylesaint said:


> Perhaps the graduates will not be as good as some on this forum with huge egos- or do we call that "God complex" in medicine?:blink: But i doubt anyone is as good as them



Again, the god complex comes in when you feel 12 weeks is adequate. Some back of the envelope calculations shows you'd have to pull 80 hour weeks to meet the ~1000 hours of didactic and clinical education required.



jimmylesaint said:


> In UK they have branched into 3yr degrees for paramedics BUT you still can train on the job and become a paramedic that way. Different NHS areas have different rules-South West Ambulance will take EMT-B/I/P.



It is becoming increasingly uncommon for paramedics overseas to be simply "certified" as opposed to degree'd.



jimmylesaint said:


> Also the kids these days are getting smarter quicker.



Cramming for an exam is not an appropriate means of learning material. It is the least efficient means of learning material.


----------



## terrible one

I think we should just 'sticky' this thread so that whenever someone complains about paramedic pay and how over saturated the market is we can just reference these posts. It's almost embarrassing.


----------



## jimmylesaint

Perhaps, what next 6yr degrees for paramedics? Degrees for paramedics unnecessary- as are degrees for police. Paramedics under trained?? Well what is required- taxi patient from scene to hospital as safely and quickly as  possible- using specific protocols to stabilise trauma, medical emergencies.
What are the most common reasons for attending ER in USA (no particular order)
1)Chest pain 2)Respiratory distress 3)Back pain 4)Trauma-mainly sprains and broken bones 5)Abdominal pain 6)headaches7)Cuts/contusions
Very repetitive!
200hrs of cardiology in 12 weeks- were you studying part time?<_<


----------



## Christopher

jimmylesaint said:


> Perhaps, what next 6yr degrees for paramedics? Degrees for paramedics unnecessary- as are degrees for police.



6 years? Who gets an AS or BS in 6 years? BS+Masters in 5-6 perhaps. This has been beat to death in other threads, but an AS for entry level EMS providers, BS for any ALS provider, and an MS for those who wish to continue on.



jimmylesaint said:


> Paramedics under trained?? Well what is required- taxi patient from scene to hospital as safely and quickly as  possible- using specific protocols to stabilise trauma, medical emergencies.



That is EMS from the 1990's and unfortunately this backwater mindset is still commonplace. Funny enough, our EMS system in my podunk section of North Carolina looks like NASA compared to your definition.



jimmylesaint said:


> What are the most common reasons for attending ER in USA (no particular order)
> 1)Chest pain 2)Respiratory distress 3)Back pain 4)Trauma-mainly sprains and broken bones 5)Abdominal pain 6)headaches7)Cuts/contusions
> Very repetitive!



I won't argue the call types, they are what they are. If you're trying to make the point that you don't need an education to handle driving somebody to the hospital, you're correct. Stay an EMT or medical responder and you'll do just fine.



jimmylesaint said:


> 200hrs of cardiology in 12 weeks- were you studying part time?<_<



Didactic 3 days a week + clinicals at the same time is actually more than a full time class. My computer science classes were twice a week tops; only physics and chemistry with lab and discussion sections were more than twice a week (I think one of the engineering classes was 4 days a week, but only for an hour and was seminar style).

You've really missed the mark on where EMS is going and the role Paramedics play. Johnny and Roy are long gone and we're gradually phasing out the old guard. The skills and responsibilities entrusted to paramedics is far out of line with our education, and slowly but surely we're moving to fix that.


----------



## Scott33

jimmylesaint said:


> Different NHS areas have different rules-South West Ambulance will take EMT-B/I/P.



No they won't.


----------



## jimmylesaint

_Paramedics under trained?? Well what is required- taxi patient from scene to hospital as safely and quickly as possible- using specific protocols to stabilise trauma, medical emergencies._
*That is EMS from the 1990's and unfortunately this backwater mindset is still commonplace. Funny enough, our EMS system in my podunk section of North Carolina looks like NASA compared to your definition.*

The ego has landed:rofl: Why do you call it a backwater mindset- my definition is straight and true in the simplicity of the role of a paramedic. Perhaps you'd like doctors/surgeons and ER personnel to come to your wagon rather than transport? Or perhaps you'd like to enlighten us how your "NASA" system differs from the rest of the world? Johnny and Roy(whoever they are) are long gone, but Smart and Alec should be too--unless they can offer reasoned dialogue rather than cheap and empty one liners.

*I won't argue the call types, they are what they are. If you're trying to make the point that you don't need an education to handle driving somebody to the hospital, you're correct. Stay an EMT or medical responder and you'll do just fine.*

You miss the point- the point is like most jobs the work is repetitive and the same old injuries appear(in physical therapy- a soft tissue injury is a soft tissue injury and there is a protocol to treat it- it's not brain science) The same for paramedics the same old 99 calls the same old assess,treat and transport.
*The skills and responsibilities entrusted to paramedics is far out of line with our education, and slowly but surely we're moving to fix that. *
This may just be in your neck of the woods The question is,  is longer education a gold standard for quality? I don't think so. Is longer hours clinical better-no, "practice doesn't make perfect"-*perfect* practice makes perfect.
Having said that i don't think you understand the big picture of the direction of western medicine-not just the small question of where EMS is going.
Especially in the USA with mammoth changes in the medical aid- which impacts the Big pharma(benefits them) Generally speaking though the local GP is being phased out and replaced by nurses and other specialists(paramedics included here) then they will be referring to specialist physicians and the GP(family doc)will no longer be around. Pharmacists will have drop in centres where BP/Glucose/Cholesterol,trig etc can be taken and tests done then and there and medication dished out-without a qualified doc getting involved. 
Hence i concede you are almost right,paramedics will need to know and do more than they have been taught-up to and just short of operating.
Until that becomes a reality though 12weeks is ample time-depending on the person.

If i can make it on to the Crowder College course- maybe i can pop over and see how things work at your place. Here in Africa we are always keen to try improve.


----------



## Christopher

jimmylesaint said:


> The ego has landed:rofl: Why do you call it a backwater mindset- my definition is straight and true in the simplicity of the role of a paramedic.



There are entire States that have moved past this, but I'll grant you that California, Florida, and New York still behave like that. They represent a large enough chunk of the population that I can see where this misconception comes from.

What you're describing is a First Aider or Medical First Responder; perhaps Ambulance Attendant / Operator if you live in California.



jimmylesaint said:


> Perhaps you'd like doctors/surgeons and ER personnel to come to your wagon rather than transport?



Why not? Sometimes the best thing to do is bring the appropriate resources to your patient. This isn't so uncommon outside of the US.



jimmylesaint said:


> Or perhaps you'd like to enlighten us how your "NASA" system differs from the rest of the world? Johnny and Roy(whoever they are) are long gone, but Smart and Alec should be too--unless they can offer reasoned dialogue rather than cheap and empty one liners.



EMS no longer means "transport", or at least not around here. Advanced Practice Paramedics and Community Paramedics are becoming integrated into systems. We transport or arrange for transports to alternative facilities and diagnose on a regular basis.

Unfortunately, we're doing all of this without the proper fundamentals and are having to play catch up. The next generation of paramedics needs to move beyond 12-week certification programs, and realize they have no business practicing as we do with such a flimsy education.



jimmylesaint said:


> You miss the point- the point is like most jobs the work is repetitive and the same old injuries appear(in physical therapy- a soft tissue injury is a soft tissue injury and there is a protocol to treat it- it's not brain science) The same for paramedics the same old 99 calls the same old assess,treat and transport.



We're taking the opposite approach. Fewer, better educated paramedics can handle the same old 99 calls and assess and disposition the patients as appropriate. Transport is just one of the options.



jimmylesaint said:


> The question is,  is longer education a gold standard for quality? I don't think so. Is longer hours clinical better-no, "practice doesn't make perfect"-*perfect* practice makes perfect.



If the bare minimum competency for a nurse to give the same medications we do is an Associates Degree, and they require an order from a physician to do so...you have to wonder where paramedics get off thinking they've got what it takes to do the same thing after a 12-week certificate program. Worse still, we're asked to do surgical procedures and RSI after clinical time less than that of a hair dresser.

We can either accept a lesser scope or accept greater education, I'm honestly Ok with either approach but would rather we go with the education.



jimmylesaint said:


> Having said that i don't think you understand the big picture of the direction of western medicine-not just the small question of where EMS is going.
> Especially in the USA with mammoth changes in the medical aid- which impacts the Big pharma(benefits them) Generally speaking though the local GP is being phased out and replaced by nurses and other specialists(paramedics included here) then they will be referring to specialist physicians and the GP(family doc)will no longer be around.



Correct, except the GP is not being replaced by somebody who has a 12 week certificate. They're being replaced by nurse practitioners with Masters or PhD level educations, or PA-C's with a BA/BS and (roughly) a masters.



jimmylesaint said:


> Pharmacists will have drop in centres where BP/Glucose/Cholesterol,trig etc can be taken and tests done then and there and medication dished out-without a qualified doc getting involved.



Pharmacists now require a PharmD (PhD). You cannot become a pharmacist through just passing the RPh alone, and besides they still required at least a BA/BS.



jimmylesaint said:


> Hence i concede you are almost right,paramedics will need to know and do more than they have been taught-up to and just short of operating.
> Until that becomes a reality though 12weeks is ample time-depending on the person.



If all they're doing is driving somebody to the hospital, 12 weeks is fine. Except this is not where EMS is going, or at least I hope not.



jimmylesaint said:


> If i can make it on to the Crowder College course- maybe i can pop over and see how things work at your place. Here in Africa we are always keen to try improve.



We're always open to ride-a-longs (our last one was a black cloud and got a tour of the cath lab). If you're ever in Southeastern North Carolina send me a PM.


----------



## jimmylesaint

*If the bare minimum competency for a nurse to give the same medications we do is an Associates Degree, and they require an order from a physician to do so...you have to wonder where paramedics get off thinking they've got what it takes to do the same thing after a 12-week certificate program. Worse still, we're asked to do surgical procedures and RSI after clinical time less than that of a hair dresser.*
Your line of thinking is on "the same trodden path" and is still awed by the myth of medicine. The medical set up has generally been a culture of profit,protectionism and negligent malpractice since around the 1970s. Many Drs like the air of mystery or the aloofness to dissuade questions that they will not know the answer too. Nurses like to help this mysteriousness. However Nurses do an amazing job and so do most doctors, but i don't think it takes nurses their whole degree to learn how to give medications-normally a module on it within the degree.
What i am saying is the real problem in your equation above is not the nurses or the paramedics but the Drs.The Drs are overhyped- for too long they have decided they are the smartest in the room because they have done 6yrs+ of university(even though i have done nearly four decades in my body-when i say i have tick fever,,,then i have tick fever just write the prescription!)
The whole system is wrong, not just the paramedic side- similar to the banking system, the medical system is inherently corrupted-USA in particular is an amazing politicomedical corrupt country. Which is probably good for Breaking Bad fans.
Drs need 6yrs of med school to learn what?A&P and general surgery takes up most of the time then learning about illness and disease. Rather than learning about health and wellness. Yep, i'm also saying 6yrs of med school, far too long and unnecessary AND outdated, how many 100s of years has this tradition been going for?

You were not far off when you mentioned your NASA set up. The paramedic future will be smarter people to operate better handheld diagnostic machinery
Ultrasound dopplers, MRI handhelds, immediate blood test machines etc


----------



## Handsome Robb

Jimmylesaint.

No matter what you say here you will not convince anyone that a 12 week Paramedicine program meeting the hate minimums is appropriate and adequate.

Having the thought process that "the same 99 calls come in assess, treat and transport" is how things get missed and people have poor outcomes or god forbid someone does. That's called complacency and arguably mediocrity.


----------



## Pond Life

jimmylesaint said:


> In UK they have branched into 3yr degrees for paramedics BUT you still can train on the job and become a paramedic that way. Different NHS areas have different rules-South West Ambulance will take EMT-B/I/P.



Hi Jimmy,
I'm afraid you have been misled on this one.
We only take NHS Paramedics, Emergency Care Practitioners or Student Paramedics through the University programmes. 

We do have a few Ambulance Technicians who are Basic and Intermediate level but they are from many years ago and we no longer recruit such clinicians.

cheers
Pond Life


----------



## jimmylesaint

Robb
I guess not- i suppose it is human nature to "will" ones job into a special place where it  is difficult and important and special.
assess, treat and transport=the basis of the paramedic job, it's not mediocre, negligent or complacent- the fact is that is the simplicity of the job in 3 words. I understand you are upset by it as you like to think your job was more than that-this is human nature, a desire to be part of something special. 
Perhaps you could enlighten me as to what else you do other than assess,treat and transport?


----------



## chaz90

You're doing it wrong if you only "assess, treat, and transport." Firstly, I don't believe every patient needs to be transported. All patients do need an assessment, many need treatment of some sort, and most request transport, but to blindly throw this trifecta at all patients is willful ignorance. Furthermore, the "simple" three step process you lay out should be so much more than you're making it out to be. 

Assessment? Yes, at a MFR or transport tech level "ABCs" can sum it up. The CCT paramedic with multiple drips running and a critical patient on a ventilator better have more advanced assessment skills though. 

Treatment? As made clear earlier in this thread, paramedics are currently given a scope of practice that is frighteningly more advanced than the minimum education level in most areas. 

If you're content to stay bogged down in EMS of the last century, keep us out of it. Many of us on and off this forum want to see EMS advance as a profession and recognize that increased education is the route we need to take. No one is arguing that monkey skills can be taught in a short period of time, but we're looking for more than that. Quite frankly, join us or move out of the way.


----------



## STXmedic

Well when you put it like that, all doctors do is assess and treat. Their job must be easier, then- There's only two things! :shock: I picked the wrong field!

You have to be kidding. 


Does anybody else smell something trollish?


----------



## chaz90

STXmedic said:


> Does anybody else smell something trollish?



Yes and no. I don't like to believe it, but I've met plenty of medics like this. Most of us probably have.


----------



## STXmedic

chaz90 said:


> Yes and no. I don't like to believe it, but I've met plenty of medics like this. Most of us probably have.



Too many to count. Most of who I work with, actually. Just not as used to seeing it here, I guess (so adamantly at least).


----------



## jimmylesaint

Hi Pondlife
So SW ambulance don't hire the IHCD FPOS


----------



## Scott33

No.


----------



## jimmylesaint

Nothing trollish- just seems i am putting up scenarios and ideas and all i am getting back is short one liners and "join us or get out the way" attitude which to an educated person like me and ex copper makes me wonder what is being hidden by the lack of communication.
I mean tell me how long you think paramedic education should be?
Tell me how long it would take you to learn the practical side, intubate,inject,drips on a dummy. Remember the MD degree has been reduced from 6yrs study to 4yrs(with integrated clinical skills) with just as good, or dare i say even better doctors graduating.
Also with the continued advancement of equipment the role of the paramedic is made easier, provided they do CPD courses to be up to date with the advances.

For instance i wonder when paramedics will be putting serious ill patients into chemical comas? Is it the future?
Perhaps the way to improve the education as to the protocols followed is to ensure the paramedic is a qualified doctor who undertakes a 12 week "paramedic course" 
I like the 12 week course because- i believe the paramedic must respond quickly,assess quickly and act quickly taking in everything. Short courses will ensure the candidate behaves in this way.(before everyone screams this quickness will kill people- what i mean is that one paramedic may assess in 5mins and come up with the right answer, another may only take 1min)
There be my food for thought, perhaps i should just step out the way now, huh?


----------



## chaz90

jimmylesaint said:


> For instance i wonder when paramedics will be putting serious ill patients into chemical comas? Is it the future?



Umm...Are we still being serious? Since this seems to be an honest question, I'll give it an honest answer. We do this right now. I won't make any argument about where RSI is or isn't necessary prehospitally, but this very instant, a paramedic from a 12 week program with no previous medical or basic science background could be preparing to paralyze someone (hopefully post sedation) and take control of their airway. This is probably as much a failure of the individual agencies and the overly lax medical director as the patch mill that produced this medic, but is this where you want to see EMS? Adding more procedures with less education will lead to us rightfully being ostracized from the medical community and tossed back into the shadows of being taxi drivers with lights and sirens. Skills don't make the provider. Again, no one is arguing that the technical skills can be taught in 12 weeks. The reasoning behind choosing to perform an intervention or not is the single most important part of being any kind of competent healthcare provider, and it is something you seem to be glossing over.


----------



## Pond Life

jimmylesaint said:


> Hi Pondlife
> So SW ambulance don't hire the IHCD FPOS




Hello Jimmy,

FPOS - First Person On Scene (First Aider).

Our commercial division teach these and a number of other courses for other agencies.
We also put our unpaid Community Responders an FPOS courses.

This is a 3 day course and doesn't reflect in content or duration an EMT B/I course that the US have. FPOS is a first aid course.

Community Responders have to sign a contract with SWAST to ensure they comply with patient confidentiality, policies and protocols. 
But they are not employed ie paid. They are civilians or existing non-ambulance agencies who help us out in their own time free of charge.

They are not EMTs by any stretch of the imagination.


----------



## Pond Life

jimmylesaint said:


> Perhaps you could enlighten me as to what else you do other than assess,treat and transport?



I do understand that different paramedic systems have different transport rates. I can only give you insight into my system I'm afraid.

In my county paramedics have a treat and release rate of over 65%. That means that 65%  of all calls we go to we do not transport. We either treat on scene or refer to other health care professionals.

We do this by an expanded scope of practice within our service and where appropriate additional education. Those with additional education have a treat and release rate of between 80% and 91%. Mine is 86%.

Due to the increased pressure on UK EDs the government are trying very hard to give us more powers and freedoms to treat patients in the community.

This is nothing new - The Red River Project published in JEMS in the early 90s were allowing paramedics to assess, X-ray, treat and release muscular skeletal injuries. They also did wound care and suturing. It was from here that the UK ECP programme got the concept of expanded scope paramedicine.


----------



## jimmylesaint

*Umm...Are we still being serious? Since this seems to be an honest question, I'll give it an honest answer. We do this right now.*
Really, you put patients into chemical comas on scene? I did not know this-is this just USA, or UK to?

Pondlife-thankyou for the response, i unfortunately have been led to believe that otherwise. However i know it is a matter of time before all are degree trained-lots being done in Hertford.
When i say assess,treat and transport i obviously understand there are more subheadings under these. Perhaps there is a need to compartmentalise paramedics into a 4yr doctor of trauma? Are paramedics being asked to do more above their remit so hospitals/doctors can avoid big law suits-this is common in USA i believe(lawsuits)Does this medicolegal implication have a bearing on education level/practical level.
I think i am looking at this from to biased a perspective as opposed to you guys in the US. My view is from a 3rd world country-where expectations and finances are limited. Training is in short supply and the extent to which a paramedic may operate is strictly adhered to unless the medical director says otherwise- in short the scope of practice is smaller- whereby a 12 week course would be ample.
If you guys are using chemical comas- i certainly wanna be on the next course in Jan if possible.
Won't be long before "beam me up Scotty" handheld MRI/doppler/mass spectrometer machines are used.


----------



## Pond Life

Very interesting question here.

I think you are right. Paramedics (certainly in the UK) are being asked to go well beyond their level of education. As a profession we think this is dangerous but the implementation of practice is by workshops and one day courses. There is a sense of advancement of clinical care in a creep style education programme. Sort of like - this year we will teach all paramedics about tissue viability. It then enters our norma practice.

I am concerned about this as a lot of what we are being taught doesn't have the clinical oversight and safety netting that should be in place. With the exception of the ECPs and PPs who have this from the get go.

As far as I am aware all UK paramedics are degree level nowadays (exception being existing paramedics who have grand parenting rights). To become an ECP, PP or CCP you need to take a minimum of a BSc Hons or more commonly nowadays an MSc programme often in Medical School. Hertfordshire is one among a dozen or so institutions.

The ambulance service legally supports all activities that paramedics et al apply. Problem is that unlike the USA we are not protocol driven. We have a scope which is dependent upon personal education, and we can practice up to that level as long as it is countersigned by the medical director. Sometimes this leaves the practitioner very vulnerable.
Conscious sedation being an example of one of the recent remits.

I spend a lot of time in third world countries as a paramedic and it can be frustrating the limitations of clinical care I can implement. But I realise I must adhere to the local laws and in the back of my mind I know I can come back to a decent system - albeit falling apart.


----------



## VFlutter

I think a 12 week paramedic program is overkill. Personally, I think I could get by with a 4 week. But I am totally awesome and on another level h34r:


----------



## Pond Life

hahaha nice one  :rofl:


----------



## DrankTheKoolaid

Chase said:


> I think a 12 week paramedic program is overkill. Personally, I think I could get by with a 4 week. But I am totally awesome and on another level h34r:



***bow***

We're not worthy!


----------



## jimmylesaint

*I think a 12 week paramedic program is overkill. Personally, I think I could get by with a 4 week. But I am totally awesome and on another level *

So that's how the Premium+Members roll on this forum? Hmm.
Perhaps you are Michael Kearney?Graduate at 10yrs old!:wacko:


----------



## jimmylesaint

STXmedic said:


> Too many to count. Most of who I work with, actually. Just not as used to seeing it here, I guess (so adamantly at least).



Perhaps STXmedic- your attitude is too abrasive and bullying to anyone else who doesn't share your opinion(whether your opinion is right or wrong...i don't think you really care.Just so long as it is *your* opinion.) They wouldn't want to continue on this forum.


----------



## VFlutter

jimmylesaint said:


> *I think a 12 week paramedic program is overkill. Personally, I think I could get by with a 4 week. But I am totally awesome and on another level *
> 
> So that's how the Premium+Members roll on this forum? Hmm.
> Perhaps you are Michael Kearney?Graduate at 10yrs old!:wacko:



No not all Premium+ Members, just me. 



jimmylesaint said:


> Perhaps STXmedic- your attitude is too abrasive and bullying to anyone else who doesn't share your opinion(whether your opinion is right or wrong...i don't think you really care.Just so long as it is *your* opinion.) They wouldn't want to continue on this forum.



I like STXmedic and usually agree with him. That's MY opinion.


----------



## jimmylesaint

*I like STXmedic and usually agree with him. That's MY opinion. *
Figures.ANd you're sticking with your opinion even though it's wrong. Right?
Besides with your one line only repertoire i'd hope the patients under your care were unconscious.


----------



## NomadicMedic

Folks, this conversation stays civil, or I'm coming back with my moderator hat on.


----------



## Carlos Danger

jimmylesaint said:


> *Umm...Are we still being serious? Since this seems to be an honest question, I'll give it an honest answer. We do this right now.*
> Really, you put patients into chemical comas on scene? I did not know this-is this just USA, or UK to?



I don't know what you mean by "chemical coma".

If you mean sedation and neuromuscular blockade (paralysis) for the purposes of airway management, then yes, that is very commonly done in the US.

If you mean a barbiturate-induced coma to suppress the EEG with the intention of reducing cerebral oxygen demand to near zero until intracranial pathology resolves, then no, that doesn't happen in the field.


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## jimmylesaint

Apologies, i think both views are now at the point of the :deadhorse:


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## jimmylesaint

Halothane said:


> I don't know what you mean by "chemical coma".
> 
> If you mean a barbiturate-induced coma to suppress the EEG with the intention of reducing cerebral oxygen demand to near zero until intracranial pathology resolves, then no, that doesn't happen in the field.



Hi Halothane the above is what i meant-thank you for clarifying.


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## Medic Tim

jimmylesaint said:


> *I like STXmedic and usually agree with him. That's MY opinion. *
> Figures.ANd you're sticking with your opinion even though it's wrong. Right?
> Besides with your one line only repertoire i'd hope the patients under your care were unconscious.





Do you have any experience in US EMS? If not it can be difficult to understand the system. I work/have worked in it and I still have trouble understanding it.

what is EMS like in your area? provider levels/names? time it takes to complete? do they work on their own or under a doctor etc. 

Without at least a base line knowledge of where each is at, it can be hard to compare the systems. If they are very different, it can be hard to comprehend why as it doesn't fit into your personal experiences.

 If in your country a person is expected to just scoop and run with little to no intervention, than a 12 week program is probably overkill and you would have no need to learn advanced skills as you would not be performing them. If it is a system with a large amount of responsibility and you are expected to be a clinician and not a technician, then a 12 week program is no where near appropriate. 

As it stands now in the US. The scope of practice and skill set (standards of care if you will) IMO far outweighs the base formal education that is provided. Hell my 3 years of formal EMS education is not enough for my current skillset.


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## STXmedic

jimmylesaint said:


> Perhaps STXmedic- your attitude is too abrasive and bullying to anyone else who doesn't share your opinion(whether your opinion is right or wrong...i don't think you really care.Just so long as it is *your* opinion.) They wouldn't want to continue on this forum.



Quite the opposite, actually- I'm very open to new information and new points of view. I didn't finish paramedic school and instantly have the views and beliefs I have today. However, to sway me takes a strong argument, ideally backed up with some kind of evidence.

Unfortunately, your point of view is not new to me, and shared by many of the _outstanding_ paramedics that I work with. These paramedics, who believe that their job is as simple as you describe, treat it as such. I wouldn't trust these paramedics to touch my dog. Not because they feel they are a taxi, but because they don't take the time to continue their education, or even care to remember the basics. These medics make mistakes on a daily basis, and it makes me cringe.

Strangely enough, the paramedics I work with that take their job seriously and realize that "assess and treat" actually takes some knowledge to be proficient at, and paramedics that consider themselves more than a glorified taxi are more often good or exceptional medics.

But you're right, I really dont care. I'm sure I can be abrasive at times- oh well. If you don't like it, nobody is twisting your arm to argue with me. I'm usually pretty laid back and enjoy educating in a non-hostile way. However, I'm not going to go back and rehash very valid points, only for you to shoot them down blindly because they don't align with your preconceived notions. Abrasive? Maybe. Bullying? If you say so. Do I care? Not a chance.


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## jimmylesaint

*It appears you are doing exactly what you are accusing others of doing*
You're right i am- i suppose i wasn't expecting that kind of myopic response in a forum of this standing.
Thankyou for reading through my posts before just responding in a set preconceived way.I notice how you picked up on a number of things about me- a good skill.
You are right there are huge differences between countries and even cultures-for some of you who have worked in Africa. It is not uncommon for the people/family to change their mind and not want Grandad suffering from an MI to go to hospital in the ambulance. They then carefully lift him out and carry him to the local witchdoctor.
The fact here is a 12 week course would be the same as saving easily 600 people out of a 1000!


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## VFlutter

jimmylesaint said:


> Besides with your one line only repertoire i'd hope the patients under your care were unconscious.



Ya most of them are vented and sedated. Lucky them.


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## CMCSNRP

*I would like to squash the rumors*

McCook Community College Accelerated Paramedic Program is a comprehensive entity. Kathy Dernovich, the program director and Bob Molcyk, lead instructor take what they do very seriously. I CAN ACTUALLY GIVE AN OPINION BECAUSE I WENT THERE. Now, I understand that everyone who went through a traditional program believes that you can't do it in 12 weeks blah blah blah. Whatever, guys and gals that was just the classroom portion. To complete the required contact hours you end up spending at or over 800hrs in the field on average. Not to mention that being an accelerated program the ones without the aptitude wash out early. Stop bashing this school please. I finished and I am a NRP with a level 1 T.C.


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## Medic Tim

These programs traditionally turn out protocol monkeys and teach providers to pass a test as opposed to being a paramedic. ( generalization) The educational standards across the board are already far too low and seeing programs like this makes me shake my head. 
Yes you can do it in that time frame and I am sure there will be good and bad medics from it ( like any program)  it just frustrates me that we push for respect and to be medical professionals yet we still cling to to short cuts and doing the bare minimum.


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## CMCSNRP

@Medic Tim
I understand what you are trying to say and I fully understand your frustration.  However, everyone from my class had experience in the field, and most of us had a military background. When I took the program I had a total of six years both in the field and hospital setting and had worked as a telemetry technician. Like I said the program is not for everyone but we didn't do the bare minimum either. I have witnessed the result of two year programs vs McCook and I can tell you wholeheartedly that these people have it together. That is not to say that every medic they turn out will be exemplary but who am I to judge. I can gaurantee 100% that they did not teach us to pass a test, nor did they require the bare minimum. We took the same number of credit hours as everyone else and practiced skills every day for 12 weeks. It was a rigorous program with talented instructors and determined students.


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## Christopher

CMCSNRP said:


> @Medic Tim
> I understand what you are trying to say and I fully understand your frustration.  However, everyone from my class had experience in the field, and most of us had a military background. When I took the program I had a total of six years both in the field and hospital setting and had worked as a telemetry technician. Like I said the program is not for everyone but we didn't do the bare minimum either. I have witnessed the result of two year programs vs McCook and I can tell you wholeheartedly that these people have it together. That is not to say that every medic they turn out will be exemplary but who am I to judge. I can gaurantee 100% that they did not teach us to pass a test, nor did they require the bare minimum. We took the same number of credit hours as everyone else and practiced skills every day for 12 weeks. It was a rigorous program with talented instructors and determined students.



I hope you'll come to the same realization that many of us have had, that the certificate style education is inadequate for the responsibility expected from and entrusted to a US paramedic. The only way to solve this is to dedicate your time to filling in the massive void created by our educational model. Experience alone cannot fill this void.


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## Medic Tim

I hate the current emphasis on skills and training . yes they are important but should not be the primary focus. What we need is real education. We are one of the last "medical fields" to not require degrees . We can and should learn from nursing. It wasn't  too long ago they were in a similar situation.


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## jimmylesaint

I still hold the same belief CMCSNRP has that the course is perfect, mainly for people who have previous knowledge/experience in a medical field.
* I hate the current emphasis on skills and training . yes they are important but should not be the primary focus. What we need is real education. We are one of the last "medical fields" to not require degrees . We can and should learn from nursing. It wasn't too long ago they were in a similar situation. *
Perhaps Medic Tim you can describe what "real education" means to you?

Remember how things have change, times have changed, knowledge has been democratised- you could google intubation and learn the theory. Technology has advanced in mobile phones/computers and whatever you want to know and apply is on line.
Traditional university is for 18yr olds who have little or no experience, where 3-4 year degrees are designed to allow the youngster to mature and develop whilst learning. In reality a 3yr Physio degree could be done in 1-1.5 years full time.
Look at Medicine- the traditional time was 6yrs university- now if you have a degree(in anything- a friend is studying Medicine in Southampton-his past degree- Computer science) The medical degree is 4yrs long- is ths "real education?"
I can tell you my father is a MD and can diagnose you as you walk in the door. My Mother an MD-she studied hard and passed exams yet uses elimination to get to a diagnosis. Both qualified both different personal traits- both at the end of their working life and both disgusted at the education they received and that continues to be fed to MDs. Both using "integrative" medicine using Niacin for patients and getting exceptional results with no side effects as opposed to billion dollar statins. High dose vitamins, prescribing *natural* progesterone(not the patentable fake progesterone) for women instead of ripping out their wombs! 
When it comes to cancer- "real education" says napalm it and your whole body with chemotherapy then destroy whats left with radiation.(I guess Nixon Declaring War on Cancer during the Vietnam war had something to do with this barbaric "treatment"!?) 95% of people who go on chemotherapy are dead within 5yrs.
Western emergency medicine is exceptionally good. What i am getting at is "real education" in my view has a lot to answer for.
Mature students who are dedicated and determined to continue or change their career can and will go through these shorter, more intense courses and be just as good or better than a 3yr uni course graduate.


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## chaz90

Oh boy. I don't really know where to start in response to this post, so I'll lead off with the easiest target. Are you trying to suggest some nebulous integrative medicine is going to be better to treat cancer vs. chemo and radiation?


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## BoonDoc

Medic Tim said:


> I hate the current emphasis on skills and training . yes they are important but should not be the primary focus. What we need is real education. We are one of the last "medical fields" to not require degrees . We can and should learn from nursing. It wasn't  too long ago they were in a similar situation.



I completely agree, mate. Paramedics should have a fundamental understanding of the biochemistry and medicine behind the skills. 

BUT

Academia is not the answer. 

Here in Ireland and the UK they have moved to the university degree system. In Ireland the "Paramedic" training is 16 weeks. The "Paramedics" cannot cannulate, intubate or do ACLS drugs. 
Ireland, in her incredible forethought, is aware that more training is needed. So they are now making the "Paramedic" a four year degree course. There is no additional skills, little additional training but at least they will have a four year BSc degree. 

This is not the answer. How much additional padding courses will these students have to take in order to increase a 16 week course into 4 years? 

Let's take a look at the UK system. Up until five years ago you can make a paramedic in as little as two years. You start with the Ambulance Technician (EMT) and work for a few years before you upskill to the IHCD Paramedic. The whole process was about two years of training spread out over five years. It made for spectacular medics with a deep understanding of their skills and training.

Now that is gone.

UK has a mandatory BSc in Paramedicine coming. Only BSc Paramedics will get registered. That is a three year programme. We have paramedics working after this academic degree who can write research papers about ethics but cannot get a BP or talk to a patient. They are too young and have no understanding of skills. 



Look, there are two sides to paramedic training. Skills and Clinical Knowledge. One must have both. Both sets of training need didactic and experiential work.
Adding a bunch of university courses that do not build on skills or clinical understanding are not the answer.


Read behind the lines. Universities are doing this for money. Here in Ireland the universities are jumping for joy knowing that they have a student for four years and all they they need to teach them is 16 week of skills training. 


What is the best way forward?


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## NomadicMedic

Wrong thread.


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## jimmylesaint

Boon doc has the crux of the matter- money.
*Are you trying to suggest some nebulous integrative medicine is going to be better to treat cancer vs. chemo and radiation? *
It's not *going to be* IT IS. Though this is not the right forum i'll be brief-50% of Americans will get cancer most will die from chemo/radiationn treatment as well as have bits chopped off. Integrative medicine(so named to get the alternative treatment passed the Pharmaceuticals) or orthomolecular medicine is the way to go for treatment. I have seen it work- on many breast cancers. Recently a glioblastoma in a 14 yr old girl, complete remission within 2 weeks-GB being particularly aggressive and difficult to treat. 
Jimmy
Oh and the side effects of alternative treatment-- good health.


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## chaz90

jimmylesaint said:


> Boon doc has the crux of the matter- money.
> *Are you trying to suggest some nebulous integrative medicine is going to be better to treat cancer vs. chemo and radiation? *
> It's not *going to be* IT IS. Though this is not the right forum i'll be brief-50% of Americans will get cancer most will die from chemo/radiationn treatment as well as have bits chopped off. Integrative medicine(so named to get the alternative treatment passed the Pharmaceuticals) or orthomolecular medicine is the way to go for treatment. I have seen it work- on many breast cancers. Recently a glioblastoma in a 14 yr old girl, complete remission within 2 weeks-GB being particularly aggressive and difficult to treat.
> Jimmy
> Oh and the side effects of alternative treatment-- good health.



Dear lord. Can we split this off into a new thread? I don't want to completely derail this one with the amount of debunking that is about to happen.

Also, I have some snake oil I'd like to sell you. It corrects unfortunate imbalances in the human body from modern society's sadly snake oil deficient diet.


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## triemal04

BoonDoc said:


> Look, there are two sides to paramedic training. Skills and Clinical Knowledge. One must have both. Both sets of training need didactic and experiential work.
> Adding a bunch of university courses that do not build on skills or clinical understanding are not the answer.


Absolutely.  And if the amount of clinical hours did not increase proportionally to the increase in didactic hours then that is a problem.

Part of why extending the educational process would be beneficial is because, if done properly, it would allow for a real exposure to clinical medicine in the hospital, and an internship that had an appropriate number of hours.

If the process takes 3+ years, by all rights quite a bit of that should involve hands-on education, and not classroom time.


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## jimmylesaint

Sure - lets start a new thread. Perhaps you'll learn something provided you have the ability to think for yourself and not just be a parrot.
The snake oil argument is an old one and you really need to up your game-in fact the snake oil is a reverse argument- Remembering.....
The Medical Profession/Pharmaceuticals loved to
 "bleed" people who had headachesroduced snake oils:
Thalidomide
Thimerasol
Dextropropoxyphene
Thorazine
Miltown
Vioxx
Dexedrine
(i could go on and on with the snake oils that have killed and maimed the elderly, young,women, men and unborns!)
Why does the Homeland Security Bill prevent lawsuits against the pharmaceuticals?Followed by the Anti-terrorism bill?
*Also, I have some snake oil I'd like to sell you.* lol no thanks mate. I'll stick with orthomolecular medicine.


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## jrm818

jimmylesaint said:


> Sure - lets start a new thread. Perhaps you'll learn something provided you have the ability to think for yourself and not just be a parrot.
> The snake oil argument is an old one and you really need to up your game-in fact the snake oil is a reverse argument- Remembering.....
> The Medical Profession/Pharmaceuticals loved to
> "bleed" people who had headachesroduced snake oils:
> Thalidomide
> Thimerasol
> Dextropropoxyphene
> Thorazine
> Miltown
> Vioxx
> Dexedrine
> (i could go on and on with the snake oils that have killed and maimed the elderly, young,women, men and unborns!)
> Why does the Homeland Security Bill prevent lawsuits against the pharmaceuticals?Followed by the Anti-terrorism bill?
> *Also, I have some snake oil I'd like to sell you.* lol no thanks mate. I'll stick with orthomolecular medicine.



so, to review, your argument is that we should abandon tested medical therapies since testing has uncovered unexpected side effects of several treatments and led to their abandonment?

do you see a problem with that logic?  if you claim "science based pharmaceuticals bad", it is poor form to use side effects demonstrated by science as the warrant for abandoning said science.

Or is the claim that those who profit off pharmaceuticals are untrustworthy (in fairness, often true) but that those who profit off "alternative medicine" are for some reason immune to profit-motivation?


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## BoonDoc

jimmylesaint said:


> alternative medicine



Do you know what they call alternative medicine that works??????

MEDICINE!


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## jimmylesaint

*so, to review, your argument is that we should abandon tested medical therapies since testing has uncovered unexpected side effects of several treatments and led to their abandonment?*
The testing stage should prevent it from causing too much harm in the first place but this is more accurate in what i am saying *Or is the claim that those who profit off pharmaceuticals are untrustworthy (in fairness, often true) but that those who profit off "alternative medicine" are for some reason immune to profit-motivation? *
Yes you are right the profits come before the patient- there are probably a dozen drugs in circulation now that shouldn't be but are because money comes first- most of the banned drugs are shipped off to developing countries and profit gleaned from there.
So yes we should in most instances, not all, abandon "tested" medical therapies as by their profitable nature they are designed to be repeated prescriptions. Chronic disease is a lifetime of profit margin!! The drugs treat the symptoms and not the problem, because to treat the problem is not profitable. Then there are the medical lies- cholesterol causes heart disease or is a factor in causing heart disease and boom Atorvastatin pops up making around $15b a year profit! Like really, MD's(after all their training-perhaps it's so long to get brainwashed) believe that our bodies are lacking a completely synthetic drug that stops a natural substance cholesterol from being produced!!!??? This synthetic Atorvastatin incidentally comes with side effects which luckily are *mainly* not serious but when they happen, more drugs are ready to help? Brilliant business plan huh.? Of course real(alternative) medicine would simply advocate Niacin, a natural substance found in the body and one that would be deficient AND works better than any statin, with the side effect of....good health. But Niacin is not patentable

*do you see a problem with that logic? if you claim "science based pharmaceuticals bad", it is poor form to use side effects demonstrated by science as the warrant for abandoning said science.* I'm demonstrating that it is poor form for the established medical profession to call alternative, integrative therapies/medicine snake oil medicine when in fact they have the history of producing the snake oils. 
Boon Doc??? Not sure what to make of your comment????Though i'd say western medicine is a substance that is synthetic to the body.
Don't get me wrong Western medicine and some drugs have a very important place in our society- e.g Accident and Emergency where drugs and their fast acting ability save lives. However also consider these powerful _drugs_ in the Emergency room
Sodium Bicarbonate-used in cardiac arrest and severe asthma
*Vitamin E*-burns
*Selenium*-protects against reperfusion ans MI
*Magnesium*-treat atrial fibrillation(sulphate)
*Vitamin C*- treats everything(particularly mushroom poisoning in the emergency room)
Do i think alternative medicine are motivated by profit- yes of course one has to in order to be sustainable- their primary motivation is curing whilst "doing no harm"  Many you will find are the old doctors who have done a lifetime of prescribing the wrong drugs, seeing many cancer patients dying from chemo/radiation than the actual disease.


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