# Injured K9 EMS treatment?



## docmoods (Apr 10, 2011)

Hey all, just a curious question... anyone in a department with SOP's reguarding treatment of injured Police/SAR K9's? Looking to find a way to train up some of my departments people for possible injury to a police K9...


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## medicRob (Apr 10, 2011)

docmoods said:


> Hey all, just a curious question... anyone in a department with SOP's reguarding treatment of injured Police/SAR K9's? Looking to find a way to train up some of my departments people for possible injury to a police K9...



Get with some emergency vet techs. A friend of mine, who I went to EMT school with was really in to animals, so much so that he went on to get his degree in animal sciences. He worked with the University of TN Knoxville to create Equine Ambulances for traffic accidents involving horse trailers resulting in animals being injured, etc. 

Contact your local community college or University. Ask them if they have a Vet Tech program, then see if you can speak with the professor, or go to any animal hospital. I am sure you will find no lack of help, due to this being an issue with police K9s.


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## docmoods (Apr 10, 2011)

medicRob said:


> Contact your local community college or University. Ask them if they have a Vet Tech program, then see if you can speak with the professor, or go to any animal hospital. I am sure you will find no lack of help, due to this being an issue with police K9s.



Yea I was already thinking about that I was just curious to see about specific SOP's reguarding care rendered... Thanks for the input though...


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 10, 2011)

> Get with some emergency vet techs.



....or actually talk to an board certified emergency veterinarian.  You wouldn't go talk to a nurse about a protocol development, you would go talk to a doc.  No disrespect to nurses or vet techs but let's remember that if you're going to be asking complicated questions, it's best to talk to the most educated person you can get in touch with.


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## bigbaldguy (Apr 10, 2011)

Here in Houston the community college offers a veterinary paramedic degree. I've actually considered taking it so I can work with local rescues. It sounds like it is basically a vet tech class with a focus on emergency care.

http://northwest.hccs.edu/portal/si...110VgnVCM100000054710acRCRD&vgnextfmt=default


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## ChitownKid (Apr 10, 2011)

Here in Chicago, they did not even touch on animal care in the Emt-B curriculum.  Although all mammals do have the same 206 bones, and an Emt/Paramedic may be able to offer some advice on things such as splinting, bleeding control... basic first aid techniques that could be applied to emergency k9 care, but I must agree with everyone when they say your best bet would definately be to contact someone with specific veterinary training


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 10, 2011)

> Here in Chicago, they did not even touch on animal care in the Emt-B curriculum



It's not part of the EMT-B curriculum so I am not surprised at all.  I'm not aware of it being a standard part of the regular EMS curriculum anywhere.


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## medicRob (Apr 10, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> You wouldn't go talk to a nurse about a protocol development, you would go talk to a doc.  No disrespect to nurses or vet techs but let's remember that if you're going to be asking complicated questions, it's best to talk to the most educated person you can get in touch with.



Uh Umm (Clears throat)... you would if it was an MSN or a DNP.


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## DesertMedic66 (Apr 10, 2011)

A K-9 officer in our town took some classes or talked alot to vet techs so he takes care of his dog. Has 2 first aid kits in his unit. One for people and one for his partner (the K-9).


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 10, 2011)

> Uh Umm (Clears throat)... you would if it was an MSN or a DNP.



No offense but if I were going to go to court, I'd want the highest level of provider I could backing it up and as much as the nursing profession has been annexing the Sudetenland of physician territory over the past few years, those with MD/DO degrees are still the top of the food chain.  When it comes to protocol development, I have two driving principles:
1.  What is best for the patient based on current evidence?
2.  How defensible is this going to be in court?


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## medicRob (Apr 10, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> No offense but if I were going to go to court, I'd want the highest level of provider I could backing it up and as much as the nursing profession has been annexing the Sudetenland of physician territory over the past few years, those with MD/DO degrees are still the top of the food chain.  When it comes to protocol development, I have two driving principles:
> 1.  What is best for the patient based on current evidence?
> 2.  How defensible is this going to be in court?



DNP/ DSN education is with emphasis on protocol development and the application evidence based findings into nursing practice. However, I will agree that they usually only create protocols for DNP and lower. 

I will be starting med school soon hopefully, so you get a pass... this time. ha ha


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 10, 2011)

medicRob said:


> DNP/ DSN education is with emphasis on protocol development and the application evidence based findings into nursing practice. However, I will agree that they usually only create protocols for DNP and lower.
> 
> I will be starting med school soon hopefully, so you get a pass... this time. ha ha



Honestly, I personally think docs should just cede primary care to the nurse practitioners and PAs entirely and focus on the specialties.  I have nothing but respect for advanced practice nurses and I can only hope that respiratory therapy eventually stops chasing its tail and starts moving in that direction.  However, I do see the limitations inherent in being a "mid-level".


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## medicRob (Apr 10, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> Honestly, I personally think docs should just cede primary care to the nurse practitioners and PAs entirely and focus on the specialties.  I have nothing but respect for advanced practice nurses and I can only hope that respiratory therapy eventually stops chasing its tail and starts moving in that direction.  However, I do see the limitations inherent in being a "mid-level".



Nah, I'll keep my ACNP specialty area and work along with the docs. I couldn't give up specialty. I started on the dual FNP/ACNP path, but ended up moving to ACNP-Intensivist.


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 10, 2011)

> Nah, I'll keep my ACNP specialty area and work along with the docs. I couldn't give up specialty. I started on the dual FNP/ACNP path, but ended up moving to ACNP-Intensivist.



I agree.  It's why I did not go to PA-C school.  I have no desire to get stuck doing primary care.  I'd fellate the business end of a shotgun first.


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## medicRob (Apr 10, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> I agree.  It's why I did not go to PA-C school.  I have no desire to get stuck doing primary care.  I'd fellate the business end of a shotgun first.



Until I take my board exam, I function as an APN, just consulting with the MD and NPs in the decisions for treatment and pharmacotherapy. Once I get my ACNP, I will be given my autonomy (of course working in conjunction with senior NPs and the MDs).


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## mycrofft (Apr 11, 2011)

*Some info*

http://www.k9forensic.org/k9firstaid.html

http://www.redcrossomaha.org/pdf/DisplayImage1212005.pdf

This link might gain you access to organizations who in turn cn get you in touch with protocolled agencies:

http://www.buckeyesardogs.org


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 11, 2011)

Yes, but back to the point at hand: veterinary technicians do not have nearly the autonomy nor the prescribing authority nor the education associated with a graduate degreed nurse.  The gulf of knowledge of medical science between an average vet tech and an average veterinarian is a lot more like the knowledge gap between your average paramedic and your average board certified physician.


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## mycrofft (Apr 11, 2011)

*Point agreed, but OP was looking for resources.*

Now where IS my Aricept?

For clinical knowledge, go to a doc.
For SP's, protocols or SOP's, go to a department or handler and get a copy. Then go to a doc to understand them.


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## pullnshoot25 (Apr 11, 2011)

Might be irrelevant to this thread, but when I went to SHOT show there was a whole booth in the Military/Police section dedicated to K9 medical services. In the booth were bulletproof vests, bandages and even a BVM and CPR mask for them. 

Again, might be irrelevant but it is still kind of cool.


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 11, 2011)

Bagging a dog is damn difficult without an airway adjunct.  They have a Mallampati score of somewhere around 15.


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## pullnshoot25 (Apr 11, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> Bagging a dog is damn difficult without an airway adjunct.  They have a Mallampati score of somewhere around 15.



Huh... 

Don't know anything about the difficulty of BVM w/o an adjunct but I do know that this particular BVM fit around the snout and forced air into the nose. 

Would suck if the little bugger needed to pant. I think that there are cooling jackets for dogs for that purpose, among others. 

On a completely unrelated sidenote, can you imagine being the poor peon doing manual ventilation on an equine? I only bring it up because I remember reading about this one doc that wanted to prove the effectiveness of Dendrobate/Phyllobate (think Poison Arrow Frog) poison for medical purposes and I think he either did a tracheotomy or intubated the bugger for 3-4 days.


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 11, 2011)

> Huh...



Here.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mallampati_score  It's a way to tell how difficult someone will be to intubate based on how much of the back of the throat you can see. 



> Don't know anything about the difficulty of BVM w/o an adjunct but I do know that this particular BVM fit around the snout and forced air into the nose.


Yeah, it's a standard veterinary anesthesia mask fitted to a BVM.  Nothing new or fancy.  They've been around for years. 

The problem being that with a large floppy tongue, bagging without either an ETT or something to hold the tongue out of the way would likely be difficult.



> Would suck if the little bugger needed to pant.



If you're bagging them, chances are they are not going to be panting.



> On a completely unrelated sidenote, can you imagine being the poor peon doing manual ventilation on an equine? I only bring it up because I remember reading about this one doc that wanted to prove the effectiveness of Dendrobate/Phyllobate (think Poison Arrow Frog) poison for medical purposes and I think he either did a tracheotomy or intubated the bugger for 3-4 days



For that, they would use a ventilator.  And, by the way, I've bagged a foal before.


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## pullnshoot25 (Apr 11, 2011)

> Here.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mallampati_score  It's a way to tell how difficult someone will be to intubate based on how much of the back of the throat you can see.



Took a look at it earlier. So many scoring systems, so many things to learn!



> Yeah, it's a standard veterinary anesthesia mask fitted to a BVM.  Nothing new or fancy.  They've been around for years.



Gotcha. 



> The problem being that with a large floppy tongue, bagging without either an ETT or something to hold the tongue out of the way would likely be difficult.
> 
> If you're bagging them, chances are they are not going to be panting.



I figured that. I as thinking more along the lines of how bagging would eliminate their primary method of thermoregulation and how other measures would be needed to help them. 

------------
It appears I remembered the story incorrectly. The poison used was curare (a concoction where dendrobate/phyllobate/etc poisons can be mixed in if not used exclusively) and the ventilation time needed was only 4 hours, not 3-4 days. Mea culpa on that part. Method of ventilation was a bellows.  











This experiment was actually performed a few years earlier, just apparently not as well-known.






Excerpts from "The Griffith Legacy"


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 11, 2011)

> It appears I remembered the story incorrectly. The poison used was curare (a concoction where dendrobate/phyllobate/etc poisons can be mixed in if not used exclusively) and the ventilation time needed was only 4 hours, not 3-4 days. Mea culpa on that part. Method of ventilation was a bellows.



Eh....that wouldn't be too bad, but then again I once bagged a patient from Pensacola, FL most of the way to Ft. Smith, AR after the ventilator on our aircraft decided to go on the fritz.  Nothing like bagging someone for the better part of two hours to give your forearms a workout.


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## HotelCo (Apr 11, 2011)

What does your state ambulance authority/local medical control say about tying up a unit/provider to treat an injured K9? Will you be dispatched to calls for this? Will you transport? 

Some things to think about...


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 11, 2011)

> What does your state ambulance authority/local medical control say about tying up a unit/provider to treat an injured K9?



Seeing as in most states, a K9 officer is considered a LEO in the eyes of the law, I would imagine they wouldn't say much.  My bigger concern would be the state veterinary licensing board if you did anything invasive.

Our medical director had a policy that we were to render "all due assistance" to injured or ill animals particularly K9 officers.  He went so far as having a local veterinarian work with him to give us some basic guidelines (which were basically the human protocols with the appropriate drug dosages plugged in) and someone to point to if the state veterinary board starting getting upset.  Under those orders, I treated seriously ill or injured:
-Dogs and cats (after fires mostly, but one choking dog and one dog that had been shot), 
-A turkey that had been struck by a truck (which is how I earned my 'Fellow, American Academy of Emerge-turkey Medicine (FAAEtM) "board certification")
-A goat with smoke inhalation
-A half-starved horse

If I had kept a copy of the protocols I would post them but unfortunately I lost my copy when my computer crashed a few years back.


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## rwik123 (Apr 11, 2011)

I would imagine that dogs or any other animal if injured would become very aggressive and combative to treatment. Do any of those guidelines cover chemical restraint in human terms?..sedation of the animal while you can tend to it?


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## bigbaldguy (Apr 11, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> Seeing as in most states, a K9 officer is considered a LEO in the eyes of the law, I would imagine they wouldn't say much.  My bigger concern would be the state veterinary licensing board if you did anything invasive.
> 
> Our medical director had a policy that we were to render "all due assistance" to injured or ill animals particularly K9 officers.  He went so far as having a local veterinarian work with him to give us some basic guidelines (which were basically the human protocols with the appropriate drug dosages plugged in) and someone to point to if the state veterinary board starting getting upset.  Under those orders, I treated seriously ill or injured:
> -Dogs and cats (after fires mostly, but one choking dog and one dog that had been shot),
> ...



So would a turkey suffering from smoke inhalation be a "smoked turkey" ......get it? Smoked turkey! No? Nothing? Never mind sounded funnier in my head


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 11, 2011)

> I would imagine that dogs or any other animal if injured would become very aggressive and combative to treatment. Do any of those guidelines cover chemical restraint in human terms?..sedation of the animal while you can tend to it?



You'd be surprised how often animals are not aggressive when injured.  I'd guess the rate is much lower than the rate of people who become total ****s when injured.


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## mycrofft (Apr 12, 2011)

*Need a nasopharyngeal airway for a dog.*

In different sizes...pug, chihuahua, up to Saluki and Great Dane.


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 12, 2011)

mycrofft said:


> In different sizes...pug, chihuahua, up to Saluki and Great Dane.


You'd probably not get it past the turbinates.  LOL


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## cfrench (Apr 12, 2011)

Probably a stupid reply but I did do mouth to snout on a full size dog many years ago and had no problem with an open airway. No resistance noted at all. Having tried it on a human and a dog, I would do it to a dog anytime over a human. Very easy skill actually.    Now back to your regularly scheduled rambling....


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## pullnshoot25 (Apr 12, 2011)

cfrench said:


> Probably a stupid reply but I did do mouth to snout on a full size dog many years ago and had no problem with an open airway. No resistance noted at all. Having tried it on a human and a dog, I would do it to a dog anytime over a human. Very easy skill actually.    Now back to your regularly scheduled rambling....



Do go on...

JK


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## cfrench (Apr 12, 2011)

Nothing big, just attempted to resuscitate a dog at a fire scene.


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## bigbaldguy (Apr 12, 2011)

Any luck? Almost as importantly did someone get a photo for your face book page? We carry canine/feline masks that were donated to us by a local animal group. I don't think they have ever been used so far.


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## cfrench (Apr 12, 2011)

bigbaldguy said:


> Any luck? Almost as importantly did someone get a photo for your face book page? We carry canine/feline masks that were donated to us by a local animal group. I don't think they have ever been used so far.



No, no luck. The dog belonged to neighbors of mine at the time. Funny you should ask about FB pics;

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=59751910627&set=a.59750365627.85868.516855627&type=1&theater

It is actually my favorite picture from my career. Not sure if that link will work.


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 12, 2011)

Nice.  We had a successful canine code after a house fire a few years back.  It actually made the local news and several of us were interviewed for it.  Must have been a slow news day or something....


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## Bon-Tech (May 14, 2011)

This course looks interesting:

http://www.k9medic.us/index.php


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## mike1390 (Jun 6, 2011)

There is a teacher in so cal named Sterling Johnson who teaches K9 first aid/ALS all around the world. Sterling is a retired LE K9 handler who is the only person to win the K9 world championship back to back. He also teaches EMT and paramedic classes at UCLA.


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## Martyn (Jun 6, 2011)

rwik123 said:


> I would imagine that dogs or any other animal if injured would become very aggressive and combative to treatment. Do any of those guidelines cover chemical restraint in human terms?..sedation of the animal while you can tend to it?



Duct tape 'em!!!


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## usafmedic45 (Jun 7, 2011)

How about you let me put a piece of duct tape across your pubic hair and remove it and see how eager you are to suggest placing adhesive materials onto fur-covered objects  afterwards?


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## AlphaButch (Jun 7, 2011)

I don't know about an SOP for it, but I've done an online class for emergency care of K-9s. It was affiliated with the TEEX program here in Texas. It basically just covered the rudimentary anatomy differences so you could properly do CPR and IVs (the regular trauma care is like dealing with a person, albeit a really "bitey" person).


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