# locating devices?



## alex120 (Feb 3, 2010)

Hello,

I am a student and I have a project to design something that will help locate rescue personnel in disaster situations.  I’m wondering what sort of locating devices you carry/use, how you carry them, and what you like/dislike about them.  I’m also looking for any other input about what you might like to see in a locating device or concerns you may have.  I appreciate you taking the time to respond.  Thank you!

Alex


----------



## 41 Duck (Feb 3, 2010)

The radios county forced upon us have a red panic-button type thing (Ma/Com idiocy).  I do not often carry the radio because, well... I'm old, and it makes the young guys feel special to have it.  They're welcome to it.

My concern with "locating devices" are the same as any type of surveillance: that it will be misused, the rationale for it distorted, and used as an Orwellian tool of punishment rather than as a lookout for trouble, as it is so often touted.

If MANDATED to carry one, the device I, personally, would have the LEAST trouble with would be a silent, unobtrusive one-way communication device that could not be operated/tracked remotely until activated by the wearer.


Later!

--Coop


----------



## LucidResq (Feb 3, 2010)

I'm not sure how relevant this is to your situation, but I'll shoot...

A big project for our SAR team has been Project Lifesaver. This program fits people at high-risk for wandering, such as people with Alzheimer's, autism, Down's Syndome, etc, with radio transmitter bracelets/anklets (similar to Lo Jack). Along with the Sheriff's dept, we own a few receivers. 

When a caretaker calls to report a client missing, we immediately respond in two ways. We set receivers to the client's frequency and can set up search patterns around the last seen point utilizing both vehicle-mounted multi-directional antennas and people on foot with uni-directional antennas. 

Using this technology in combination with traditional SAR techniques has astounding results. Searches generally end successfully in 30 min - an hour. One time, a client's transmitter was accidentally thrown away. Using receivers, deputies were not only able to locate the dumpster in which it was tossed, they were able to precisely locate the device in a specific bag of garbage in that dumpster quickly.


----------



## resq330 (Feb 4, 2010)

LucidResq said:


> I'm not sure how relevant this is to your situation, but I'll shoot...
> 
> A big project for our SAR team has been Project Lifesaver. This program fits people at high-risk for wandering, such as people with Alzheimer's, autism, Down's Syndome, etc, with radio transmitter bracelets/anklets (similar to Lo Jack). Along with the Sheriff's dept, we own a few receivers.
> 
> ...





Our local Sheriff's Office just purchased this system.


----------



## mycrofft (Feb 4, 2010)

*Historically*

1. In the FD we were told if we were trapped to throw our helmet out through a window to get attention. I suppose that was to spare the chief being peltd with axes, spanners and Halligans from five stories up.

2. PLD's, personal locator devices, a device like a short flashlight attached to your airpak harness with a loud electronic screecher. You triggered it by hand. Some were made with a motion sensor and if you held still too long they triggered. Wonder how many of those went off in someone's locker. I think they also made one with a xenon strobe.

3. Skiers use a radio locator beacon in case they are in an avalanche. Maybe one could use these but have them digitally coded so many could be used near each other without false alarms.

My experience is that in conditions of impact, dust, moisture,and occasional use, (plus profanity galore), electronic devices tend to fail due to battery issues and simple mechanical failure (beaten to death); otherwise, NFL quarterbacks would all have helmet radios. Oh, yeah, if they're small enough to carry, they are small enough to carry home.

How about a RFD you cement to your body or swallow?


----------



## EMSLaw (Feb 4, 2010)

Other than the panic button on our radio, and the fact that Dispatch should (and I emphasize should, which is not to be confused with "actually do") know where we are, that's about all we have.  

None of us have yet wandered off.


----------



## Jon (Feb 5, 2010)

Alex,

Not sure what exactly what you are looking for... lots of different ways this could be interpreted.

Firefigters have PASS devices now - if you stop moving, the area gets too hot, you run out of air, or your press a button, your airpack makes a loud noise, and in some set-up's, there is RF direction finding equipment that allows a RIT (Rapid Intervention Team) to find the down firefighter.

Everywhere I work 911, we carry County radios with an emergency identifier button. If I press the orange button, it sends a transmission to County dispatch that says that "Portable 1 of XY Ambulance" has activated their emergent button. They'll hail us on a dedicated channel and are supposed to hear a magic word to ensure that it is clear, then it gets reset. No where I work has GPS wired to the radios - they know where I am if I'm staused onscene, but if I'm in the coffee shop and get jumped, I'm SOL. I imagine GPS would be easy to build in, but you'd need the GPS antenna and receiver... the hardware and ideas are out there, at least in the Ham APRS community.


Hey Coop - Are you on the PA State MA/Com network as an EMS unit? Which county?


----------



## 41 Duck (Feb 5, 2010)

Jon:

I'm in York...


Later!

--Coop


----------



## MMiz (Feb 5, 2010)

I know Motorola makes GPS Speaker Microphones/shoulder microphones for their professional line of radios (XTS).  All of our vehicles had GPS, and we too had a panic button on our radios.  The biggest concern most services would have with a locating device is cost.  It usually not only costs money for the GPS hardware, but also for the dispatch module/software that has to go along with it.


----------



## nomofica (Feb 6, 2010)

Well... We have a PASS alarm, if that counts...?


----------



## TripsTer (Feb 6, 2010)

We have these new PASS devices that can communicate two ways; I can trigger an alert and whoever is in-charge of accountability can see that I am in alarm, and they can send for an example, an evac tone to me that tells me to get out.



mycrofft said:


> My experience is that in conditions of impact, dust, moisture,and occasional use, (plus profanity galore), electronic devices tend to fail due to battery issues and simple mechanical failure (beaten to death); otherwise, NFL quarterbacks would all have helmet radios. Oh, yeah, if they're small enough to carry, they are small enough to carry home.



The devices today are rated to be rugged and withstand alot of abuse.  With proper maintenance and inspection (i.e. checking your equipment out each shift), you shouldn't have any problems. 

Take care of your equipment, and you won't have to throw your helmet out a window and pray that someone saw or can tell where it came from...


----------



## nomofica (Feb 7, 2010)

TripsTer said:


> We have these new PASS devices that can communicate two ways; I can trigger an alert and whoever is in-charge of accountability can see that I am in alarm, and they can send for an example, an evac tone to me that tells me to get out.



I've seen these before. They'd be neat to have but being on a volly dept. with a very low call volume (and the fact that we lift more old people out of bath tubs than we do fight fires, it seems...) it's simply impractical to outfit our 35-man dept with them. Besides, if we're ever dealing with a structural fire big enough to recommend those new PASS devices (say, a warehouse or factory fire), mutual aid will be called for and we'll have crews from 3 volly depts and 2 full time paid departments. One day, though... One day...


----------



## mycrofft (Feb 9, 2010)

*Tripster, I forgot to mention about the helmet toss*

HAving your name inside the helmet made it easier to identify your remains.
AS for reliability, see Murphy's Laws of Combat and EMS


----------



## TripsTer (Feb 9, 2010)

Well, if all of us go into a fire and meet unstable conditions, become trapped and do silly things such as _take off_ our PPE and throw it out a window, not utilize our radio or PASS (We left them at the station because they're unreliable) and other silly shenanigans...there sure will be plenty of remains.

Times are a changing Chief, it's time to update the advice you give to the kiddos.


----------



## mycrofft (Feb 9, 2010)

*You mean...that's not current anymore?*

b)
Oh, alright, I'm archaic. I was a charter member of the Bedrock Volunteer Firefighting and Dinosaur Hunting department.
I wonder exactly how good the GPS and other stuff really is, as related by actual folks using them in real situations? I knew many folks (still do) entrusted with radios and stuff who could not be trusted or bothered with changing a flashlight battery. One thing though, if you steal a GPS item and leave it turned on...

I'm reminded of the dust masks handed out at the World Trade Center attack.


----------



## LondonMedic (Feb 9, 2010)

London Ambulance, in common with most ermegency services in the UK, use telemetry from the vehicles GPS via the MDT to locate vehicles. TETRA Airwave radios provide the 'emergency' button.


----------



## TripsTer (Feb 9, 2010)

Okay we keep hearing GPS brought up...

GPS tracks you by your global position which is accurate to say maybe 10 Meters. Great for apparatus.

But GPS for individual firefighters/medics is impractical and non-existent. It would look like 50 dots all concentrated on one coordinate and wouldn't help at the slightest. It may be good for say...Wildland firefighters, SAR, or personnel that are spread out between larger areas, but not for urban or even rural structural firefighters, not to mention medics on an ambulance. 

Bottom line, there is no such thing as GPS tracking for individuals on the fireground .

Once again Chief, technology has updated. Those nice ol' lithium rechargable batteries ensure that I'll melt the light in a fire before I use up the battery life. 

And the N95's at the WTC...How many of them wore it? It's like airpacks during overhaul, we should wear em but we don't want to look like wusses. Instead we'll just sacrifice looking macho now for cancer in the future. 

Our equipment is only as good as the training we recieve and proper use. But I believe that we should use it to the fullest, it'll save your life one day.


----------



## mycrofft (Feb 11, 2010)

*Back to the OP...*

Have transceivers on towers to picket around a scene and the responders allowed through the entry control point have devices which can be used to triangulate within the site. If you were lost in the rubble of the WTC or in Elmo's hayfield at night in a whiteout, they could vector help to you with terminal handheld devices, or vector you out via radio.
It could also be two receivers with really fine directional capability, but to me "fine" means  "delicate".
It has to be tough, reliable, relatively inexpensive (FEMA expensive, not NASA or DoD expensive), actually WORK, and be painted black, cammo, International Orange or utility truck yellow.  

And to quote Clark Kent's boss, "Great Ceaser's Ghost, quit calling me CHIEF!". ("Major" would suffice...).


----------



## redcrossemt (Feb 14, 2010)

OP needs to clarify.

We see the PASS a lot for fire scenes.

We have GPS on the rigs with "orange buttons" on our radios. At least they'll find their ambulance if I get hurt.


----------



## TripsTer (Feb 14, 2010)

I think what would be neat is a proximity sensor, like something that alerts you when you are getting close to someone that is downed or has triggered an alert. Like say a downed fireman triggers his PASS that has a proximty sensor and someone with a locator goes to look for him and it beeps louder as you get closer. 

I'm surprised that it's not invented or if it is, in wide use.


----------



## mycrofft (Feb 15, 2010)

*As I said, skiers have that.*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalanche_transceiver


----------



## TripsTer (Feb 15, 2010)

And if they could make that for Fire/EMS use...


----------



## mycrofft (Feb 15, 2010)

*I'll email them.*

Hey, OP, hope this isn't too far off track!


----------



## mycrofft (Feb 15, 2010)

*Try this*

http://www.i-a-i.com/view.asp?aid=105


----------



## TripsTer (Feb 16, 2010)

Mark my words

One day, equipment such as that will be required by NFPA. Whenever it reaches widespread use.


----------



## mycrofft (Feb 16, 2010)

*Psst. Don't look now but we're gonna be labelled as FF'ers!*

Yeah, and NFPA will also require us to carry bottled compressed air in big heavy tanks on our backs to breath during a fire.


----------

