# Volunteer Fire Department Runs Over Victim



## medic417 (Mar 17, 2011)

http://www.kwes.com/Global/story.asp?S=14273068

Volunteer fire department ran over a woman that had already been run over while responding to another call.  Thought they ran over a dog.  

While that department is not EMS it should serve as another reason to watch speed and the road even when running lights and sirens.  Not saying they were not watching or that they were driving wrecklessly just using as a discussion to help us each consider how things can go wrong quickly.


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## medic417 (Mar 17, 2011)

http://www.cbs7.com/news/details.asp?ID=24318

"The West Odessa Volunteer Fire Department says they did drive over the woman accidentally and did not see her because it was so dark and she was wearing dark clothing.

They said it's likely she had already been killed from when she was hit by the first vehicle."

:unsure:


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## abckidsmom (Mar 17, 2011)

Must have been pretty dark.


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## 18G (Mar 17, 2011)

Headlights must not have been working.


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## CAOX3 (Mar 17, 2011)

Its a pretty big leap to assume she was already dead.

If I did this in my personal vehicle I'm sure the police wouldn't assume she was already dead.

I did almost run someone over once.  We were called to an assault when I pulled over and got out of the truck I almost stepped on this guys head.  It was dark and he was laying in the gutter  sleeping off his load on trash day another foot and he would have been mashed potatos.


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## firetender (Mar 17, 2011)

CAOX3 said:


> Its a pretty big leap to assume she was already dead.



All it takes is one look. No fresh blood oozing from the corpse after vehicle 2 tells the story.


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## usafmedic45 (Mar 17, 2011)

firetender said:


> All it takes is one look. No fresh blood oozing from the corpse after vehicle 2 tells the story.



Wrong.


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## MrBrown (Mar 17, 2011)

They were running from this dude


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## Aidey (Mar 17, 2011)

My EMTB instructor told us of a case that happened a number of years ago. A medium size plane that crashed in extremely foggy conditions and the responders hit bodies when driving on the runway to try and get to the scene. So I can see how it could happen in certain situations, but it does seem like they should have been paying more attention.


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## CAOX3 (Mar 17, 2011)

firetender said:


> All it takes is one look. No fresh blood oozing from the corpse after vehicle 2 tells the story.



I'm assuming the person had only been hit minutes ago so in that respect their fresh,  it would be almost impossible to determine which car delivered the fatal blow.


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## usafmedic45 (Mar 17, 2011)

Aidey said:


> My EMTB instructor told us of a case that happened a number of years ago. A medium size plane that crashed in extremely foggy conditions and the responders hit bodies when driving on the runway to try and get to the scene. So I can see how it could happen in certain situations, but it does seem like they should have been paying more attention.



I know of two cases where that has happened.  What state was this in?


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## usafmedic45 (Mar 17, 2011)

CAOX3 said:


> I'm assuming the person had only been hit minutes ago so in that respect their fresh,  it would be almost impossible to determine which car delivered the fatal blow.



It would be difficult as best but it might be possible, if you have a damn good scene investigation and a talented pathologist.


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## firetender (Mar 18, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> Wrong.



Well, don't just slap me on the wrist, edumacate me!


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## usafmedic45 (Mar 18, 2011)

firetender said:


> Well, don't just slap me on the wrist, edumacate me!



OK....

1.  Dead bodies can and do bleed....sort of.  If you put pressure on an enclosed space-let's use the thigh for example- and the surface of the space tears, you're going to have the liquid contents of that space come out.  This is what will happen as a tire passes over a leg.  The same thing will happen if you have a wound where gravity can do its thing.  This is why the bottom of the inside of body bags are often coated in blood even if the victim at the scene was relatively clean. 
2.  You can tell premortem injuries from post-mortem injuries _at autopsy_, but you have to know what you're looking at and I am willing to bet money none of the guys on that scene are pathologists, pathologist assistants or autopsy techs.  Mostly it has to do with the difference in appearance of a perfused tissue at the time of trauma versus non-perfused and the resulting hemorrhage into the tissues.


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## firetender (Mar 18, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> OK....
> 
> 1.  Dead bodies can and do bleed....sort of.



First, thanks!

...and it's the "sort of" I'm referring to. Close inspection does show a few telltale signs, though I agree, it's the Pathologists call, *so accept this as entertainment only! *

If the heart's pumping in the moment of impact and there is a break in the integrity of the skin deep enough to nick blood vessels, the "halo" of blood around the affected area will be spread out with a noticeably wider reach. 

Even if the heart gets just a few beats in before stopping, you can see the difference. This is especially true with head injuries. High vascularization in the dead shows up as blood everywhere; for the living, it's blood "going" everywhere!

There's a difference between pooling blood, which is what happens in body bags and leaves a small halo on-scene (if any at all!), and spreading blood which is what you see flowing down the street having just been ejected by a pumping heart, from a closed system, under pressure.

Also, fresh blood and unoxygenated blood just look and even feel different according to the stage of coagulation. I was a witness to the scene of something just like this three years ago where a person was hit by a truck -- crushed head and torso -- within MOMENTS of having had a heart attack. I suspected the sequence of events based on the stated observations and it was later borne out by the autopsy.

...and I'm sure there are many things I may be missing while I make lucky guesses!

(All such lovely thoughts before bed; G'nite!)


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## CAOX3 (Mar 18, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> OK....
> 
> 1.  Dead bodies can and do bleed....sort of.  If you put pressure on an enclosed space-let's use the thigh for example- and the surface of the space tears, you're going to have the liquid contents of that space come out.  This is what will happen as a tire passes over a leg.  The same thing will happen if you have a wound where gravity can do its thing.  This is why the bottom of the inside of body bags are often coated in blood even if the victim at the scene was relatively clean.
> 2.  You can tell premortem injuries from post-mortem injuries _at autopsy_, but you have to know what you're looking at and I am willing to bet money none of the guys on that scene are pathologists, pathologist assistants or autopsy techs.  Mostly it has to do with the difference in appearance of a perfused tissue at the time of trauma versus non-perfused and the resulting hemorrhage into the tissues.



Can they narrow it down to minutes? 

For instance would they be able to determine time of death even if the events happened just minutes apart?


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## usafmedic45 (Mar 18, 2011)

Not on scene like these bumbling morons tried to do, but generally we can tell- as an example- if a fracture was due to the crash someone one was in or a result of post-mortem exposure to intense fire.  So, to answer your question, in most circumstances, yes.


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## medic417 (Mar 18, 2011)

"They too reported hitting a large dog."

Okay from the first story the above.  If you see a large object in the road would you try and avoid hitting it?  If driving at a safe speed on a clear night with headlights and street lights as this intersection has I believe you see a large object you should be able to safely manuever around it.


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## adamjh3 (Mar 18, 2011)

I wasn't there and don't know all the circumstances, thus I hate playing monday morning quarterback, but if I were to give benefit of the doubt to the crew, I'd say the driver probably saw the "large object" and felt he was moving too quickly to safely maneuver around it. How fast that was in relation to the speed limit, I can't answer

Assuming it was already in he road, they probably thought it was some sort of already dead animal, no big whoop, right?


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## CAOX3 (Mar 18, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> Not on scene like these bumbling morons tried to do, but generally we can tell- as an example- if a fracture was due to the crash someone one was in or a result of post-mortem exposure to intense fire.  So, to answer your question, in most circumstances, yes.



Very interesting,


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## zmedic (Mar 18, 2011)

I will say this, I was driving my personal car the other day and there was someone walking in the unlit road, dressed head to toe in black at night, with a black scarf covering her face. Even with headlights I didn't see her till about 30 feet away. Fortunately I was going about 15mph and was able to not hit her. But same person, lying down, with me going 45mph? No way I would have seen her before it was too late. Scary.


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## TransportJockey (Mar 19, 2011)

After talking to one of the medical examiners assistants that worked that scene, they actually are saying she was most likely dead when WOVFD ran her over.
EDIT: And this intersection doesn't have the best lighting in the world. DPS has stated that she was failing to yield right of way to oncoming traffic.


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## usafmedic45 (Mar 19, 2011)

> After talking to one of the medical examiners assistants that worked that scene, they actually are saying she was most likely dead when WOVFD ran her over.



OK.  My only problem with the whole thing was the statement being made _before the autopsy_.  It's a bit like saying "Well, the ballistics will match the gun we found on that dude over there" before actually checking to see if it does.


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## medic417 (Mar 19, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> OK.  My only problem with the whole thing was the statement being made _before the autopsy_.  It's a bit like saying "Well, the ballistics will match the gun we found on that dude over there" before actually checking to see if it does.




I will agree with you on that one.  

The thing that still bugs me is they said they saw a large object in the road and just went over it.  At that location a busy in town location they still should have been driving slow enough that even with just headlights they should have been able to take safe evasive action.  And yes I have driven fire trucks and know how the water slosh affects handling.


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## Flight-LP (Mar 19, 2011)

Interesting and tragic story all in one.

My curiosity is why the department responded on that particular route if they knew there was an auto-ped in that intersection. Would dispatch not pass that information on when units went en route? To me that sounds like a failure to effectively plan a response if they did in fact know about the accident. 

Also, why did they not stop and at least check / confirm it was a dog? Many department SOP's require you stop and at least inspect if you impact anything while driving.


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## mkthefiregirl (Mar 22, 2011)

18G said:


> Headlights must not have been working.




And every other light on the truck:glare:


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## zmedic (Mar 22, 2011)

I'd argue that the warning lights make it harder to see someone on the road. Your brain is dealing with changing colors, sudden changes in intensity, movement of the lights themselves. Your brain probably would take longer to process that there was something in the road than if you were just driving normally. Warning lights are to help other people see you, doesn't really make it easier for you to see.


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## Medic2409 (Mar 23, 2011)

Look at the video again, and pay close attention to the telephone poles.  Having driven down this roadway I don't recall very many street lights.

Also, keep in mind, this happened in the early morning.

Trying to Arm Chair quarterback this unfortunate situation is foolish at best.  It's real easy to sit on your high horse and judge others, when you have no idea what they actually did, what went through their minds, or how it occurred.

Assuming they were driving unsafely or that they were just a bunch of morons merely makes YOU seem like a fool.  Actually, no, you don't seem like a fool, you ARE a fool.

JMHO.


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## Medic2409 (Mar 23, 2011)

Flight-LP said:


> Interesting and tragic story all in one.
> 
> My curiosity is why the department responded on that particular route if they knew there was an auto-ped in that intersection. Would dispatch not pass that information on when units went en route? To me that sounds like a failure to effectively plan a response if they did in fact know about the accident.
> 
> Also, why did they not stop and at least check / confirm it was a dog? Many department SOP's require you stop and at least inspect if you impact anything while driving.



Actually, they don't appear to have known there was an auto ped.  And why, when there is a house on fire, would you want to stop and check on a dog?


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## Farmer2DO (Mar 29, 2011)

Medic2409 said:


> Actually, they don't appear to have known there was an auto ped.  And why, when there is a house on fire, would you want to stop and check on a dog?



To make sure it was actually a dog that you hit, and not a person?


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## Flight-LP (Mar 30, 2011)

Medic2409 said:


> Actually, they don't appear to have known there was an auto ped.  And why, when there is a house on fire, would you want to stop and check on a dog?



Right back at ya, why wouldn't you????????

Funny that you are tossing the term "fool" around when you have questionable priorities of an inanimate structure vs. a living organism. But as you said, JMHO..........


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## CAOX3 (Mar 30, 2011)

Medic2409 said:


> Actually, they don't appear to have known there was an auto ped.  And why, when there is a house on fire, would you want to stop and check on a dog?



Umm to determine it wasnt a person.


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## Medic2409 (Mar 31, 2011)

I forget sometimes that people that grew up in the City, don't know what it's like to grow up in the Country.

This particular stretch of roadway...very few pedestrians, and I mean VERY few.


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## TransportJockey (Mar 31, 2011)

Medic2409 said:


> I forget sometimes that people that grew up in the City, don't know what it's like to grow up in the Country.
> 
> This particular stretch of roadway...very few pedestrians, and I mean VERY few.



And it's also not made for pedestrian traffic. I hate that area of Odessa


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## Medic2409 (Mar 31, 2011)

Further, house fire...quite often potential for entrapment, with potentially people, perhaps children, in danger, vs. stray dog on side of road.  

Again, this particular stretch of roadway in a sparsely settled area of West Texas...VERY few pedestrians, fairly good number of stray dogs.

My point is, and has always been, and always will be, one CANNOT blanket judge from their point of view.  Manhattan, Los Angeles, even Dallas, is nothing compared to Pecos, Ft. Stockton, Needmore, or Muleshoe.  Perhaps the biggest problem with this forum, is that few people realize, that it's not one world.


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## usalsfyre (Mar 31, 2011)

CAOX3 said:


> Umm to determine it wasnt a person.



If I am enroute to a confirmed structure fire, I would not stop to check on what I thought was a dog either. Do you stop everytime you see a dead dog on the road? 

That said, I'm going to avoid hitting it if at all possible.


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## usalsfyre (Mar 31, 2011)

Medic2409 said:


> . Manhattan, Los Angeles, even Dallas, is nothing compared to Pecos, Ft. Stockton, Needmore, or Muleshoe.



I get your point, but wouldn't you reverse that statement .

(This coming from a guy that has a significant number of residences in his district where the pines on the lot are worth more than the structure...)


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## Medic2409 (Mar 31, 2011)

usalsfyre said:


> I get your point, but wouldn't you reverse that statement .
> 
> (This coming from a guy that has a significant number of residences in his district where the pines on the lot are worth more than the structure...)




:blush:
Mebbe I shoulda thrown in Edom, Ben Wheeler, Jacksonville, or Lufkin?


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## usalsfyre (Mar 31, 2011)

Substitute Alto for Lufkin and you've got it lol.


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## CAOX3 (Mar 31, 2011)

usalsfyre said:


> If I am enroute to a confirmed structure fire, I would not stop to check on what I thought was a dog either. Do you stop everytime you see a dead dog on the road?
> 
> That said, I'm going to avoid hitting it if at all possible.



But it wasnt a dog it was a person.

No I don't stop if I see a dead animal in the road, I also wouldn't continue on until I was
100% sure it wasnt a person.


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## usalsfyre (Mar 31, 2011)

CAOX3 said:


> But it wasnt a dog it was a person.


Hindsight is 20/20.



CAOX3 said:


> No I don't stop if I see a dead animal in the road, I also wouldn't continue on until I was
> 100% sure it wasnt a person.


Like was noted above, there's often various sized bits and pieces of a lot of different things on the side of the road in rural areas. On my daily routes I would have to be pretty sure it WAS a person before I'd stop rather than the other way around.


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## abckidsmom (Mar 31, 2011)

usalsfyre said:


> Hindsight is 20/20.
> 
> 
> Like was noted above, there's often various sized bits and pieces of a lot of different things on the side of the road in rural areas. On my daily routes I would have to be pretty sure it WAS a person before I'd stop rather than the other way around.



Agree here.  The dear are overrunning our area.  It is nothing to see a large carcass on the road.  Sometimes you even hit it.  In poor light, the flash of skin and fur can look like anything.  I'd have to see clothing to want to stop, though I'd usually always try to dodge it.


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## CAOX3 (Mar 31, 2011)

usalsfyre said:


> Hindsight is 20/20.
> 
> 
> Like was noted above, there's often various sized bits and pieces of a lot of different things on the side of the road in rural areas. On my daily routes I would have to be pretty sure it WAS a person before I'd stop rather than the other way around.



So maybe it's location dependent, we don't commonly run things over, there isnt usually dead animals in various states of decomposition along our roadways,  I have seen a wild deer once in my life.  So if we hit something in the street chances are it's going to be a person and not wildlife.


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## medic417 (Mar 31, 2011)

CAOX3 said:


> So maybe it's location dependent, we don't commonly run things over, there isnt usually dead animals in various states of decomposition along our roadways,  I have seen a wild deer once in my life.  So if we hit something in the street chances are it's going to be a person and not wildlife.



In that part of Odessa it would be either a dog or a person.  Lots of people with bad habits and or bad situations in that area that do walk around the streets all hours of the night.  There is lighting not great but there is lighting.  Driving at a safe speed they should have been able to avoid the "large dog".  

There may be more to the story.


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## abckidsmom (Mar 31, 2011)

CAOX3 said:


> So maybe it's location dependent, we don't commonly run things over, there isnt usually dead animals in various states of decomposition along our roadways, * I have seen a wild deer once in my life.  *So if we hit something in the street chances are it's going to be a person and not wildlife.




Probably need to get out of the concrete jungle more.  Wow this shocked me so much!

Goes to show that you just never know what people's life experiences are.   I would never have guessed there were people who had such limited experiences with those giant rats.


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## Emma (Mar 31, 2011)

abckidsmom said:


> Probably need to get out of the concrete jungle more.  Wow this shocked me so much!
> 
> Goes to show that you just never know what people's life experiences are.   I would never have guessed there were people who had such limited experiences with those giant rats.



There are deer grazing on the grass margins of the freaking toll road in Fairfax County.  I couldn't believe it.  I saw a dead one on the edge of the Beltway near I 66, also.

I think deer are adapting nicely to concrete jungles.h34r:


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## abckidsmom (Mar 31, 2011)

Emma said:


> There are deer grazing on the grass margins of the freaking toll road in Fairfax County.  I couldn't believe it.  I saw a dead one on the edge of the Beltway near I 66, also.
> 
> I think deer are adapting nicely to concrete jungles.h34r:




Giant rats.  Blech.

We have bears now, too.  In central VA, with Charlottesville and two interstate highways between us and the mountains.


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## TransportJockey (Mar 31, 2011)

I'll take deer over elk. Those things are slower and much bigger.


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## CAOX3 (Mar 31, 2011)

abckidsmom said:


> Probably need to get out of the concrete jungle more.  Wow this shocked me so much!
> 
> Goes to show that you just never know what people's life experiences are.   I would never have guessed there were people who had such limited experiences with those giant rats.



I couldn't tell you the last time I saw a deer, it's been a while.  People on the outskirts hit them once in a while, but with my own two eyes it's probably been years.


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## usafmedic45 (Mar 31, 2011)

> Hindsight is 20/20.



Especially when you look in the rearview mirror. LOL


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## medic417 (Mar 31, 2011)

jtpaintball70 said:


> I'll take deer over elk. Those things are slower and much bigger.



We have free range elk in west Texas.  They do tear up cars.


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## TransportJockey (Mar 31, 2011)

medic417 said:


> We have free range elk in west Texas.  They do tear up cars.



Yep, seen one or two on my drives around W.TX, plus all over in W. NM


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## DesertMedic66 (Mar 31, 2011)

medic417 said:


> We have free range elk in west Texas.  They do tear up cars.



So glad I don't have to worry about running into deer or elk here. Just people, dogs, cats, rabbits, squirrels, snakes, and other desert animals. However there is one area that we have to watch out for cows.


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## TransportJockey (Mar 31, 2011)

firefite said:


> So glad I don't have to worry about running into deer or elk here. Just people, dogs, cats, rabbits, squirrels, snakes, and other desert animals. However there is one area that we have to watch out for cows.



Heh, W. TX  IS a desert  Deer and elk live in the desert too. Along with coyote, and wolves, and cows, and horses, and... heh. more.


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## abckidsmom (Mar 31, 2011)

firefite said:


> So glad I don't have to worry about running into deer or elk here. Just people, dogs, cats, rabbits, squirrels, snakes, and other desert animals. However there is one area that we have to watch out for cows.



You reminded me of the goriest MVA I ever worked.  Truck vs. Cow.  All that steak, WASTED!


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## DesertMedic66 (Mar 31, 2011)

A couple years back we had a cop hit a cow while going code 3. Neither of them made it.


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## usalsfyre (Mar 31, 2011)

Emma said:


> There are deer grazing on the grass margins of the freaking toll road in Fairfax County.  I couldn't believe it.  I saw a dead one on the edge of the Beltway near I 66, also.
> 
> I think deer are adapting nicely to concrete jungles.h34r:



I counted something like 20+ carcasses one fall morning on I66 between Front Royal and the Nutley St exit. Half of them were east of Manassas.


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## usalsfyre (Mar 31, 2011)

medic417 said:


> In that part of Odessa it would be either a dog or a person.  Lots of people with bad habits and or bad situations in that area that do walk around the streets all hours of the night.  There is lighting not great but there is lighting.  Driving at a safe speed they should have been able to avoid the "large dog".
> 
> There may be more to the story.



That's the suspicious part of the story to me. Not that they didn't stop, but that they hit them. Hitting large carcasses, be it a dog, deer, or human is hard on equipment. I don't know why you wouldn't try to avoid it. Traffic might have presented a situation where he couldn't miss it, but I've also see some jackass aim at stuff like this because it would be "funny". The other possibility is they were traveling too fast for the lighting conditions.


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## TransportJockey (Mar 31, 2011)

usalsfyre said:


> That's the suspicious part of the story to me. Not that they didn't stop, but that they hit them. Hitting large carcasses, be it a dog, deer, or human is hard on equipment. I don't know why you wouldn't try to avoid it. Traffic might have presented a situation where he couldn't miss it, but I've also see some jackass aim at stuff like this because it would be "funny". The other possibility is they were traveling too fast for the lighting conditions.



I keep having a feeling in the back of my mind that one of the local news stations said she got hit by the FD unit second, right after she was hit by a car/truck. That might explain things a little bit. I'll look to see if I can find that.


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## FrostbiteMedic (Mar 31, 2011)

CAOX3 said:


> So maybe it's location dependent, we don't commonly run things over, there isnt usually dead animals in various states of decomposition along our roadways,  I have seen a wild deer once in my life.  So if we hit something in the street chances are it's going to be a person and not wildlife.


Ummm...How in the? Never mind the fact that you live quite near to me CAO, but I know growing up in and around Chattavegas that there are plenty of deer to be seen. Not as many as living where I do now, but I know growing up I saw at least 6-7 deer a year when I was living in Red Bank.....


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## DesertMedic66 (Mar 31, 2011)

jtpaintball70 said:


> I keep having a feeling in the back of my mind that one of the local news stations said she got hit by the FD unit second, right after she was hit by a car/truck. That might explain things a little bit. I'll look to see if I can find that.



That's possible. It's happened to me before with a large dog. Car in front of me hit it and the dog did a couple flips into my lane where I swerved out of the way. Dog only clipped my rear bumper. So it's possible.


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## Farmer2DO (Apr 1, 2011)

usalsfyre said:


> If I am enroute to a confirmed structure fire, I would not stop to check on what I thought was a dog either. Do you stop everytime you see a dead dog on the road?
> 
> That said, I'm going to avoid hitting it if at all possible.



I don't stop for every dead dog I see on the road.  However, I DO stop for everything I hit if I'm not 100% sure what it was.  As the driver, you take that responsibility.  Period.  Nothing is that important that you shouldn't make sure of what you just ran over.  If you don't, then you're taking the chance that just something like this could happen.  

I'm not going to fault them for hitting this person.  I don't know the situation.  I will, however, say that, beyond a doubt, a public safety vehicle should have made sure that what they hit wasn't a person.  The chance that there MIGHT be someone trapped at a fire miles down the road does not justify leaving someone for dead because you thought they were a dog.


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