# Ark. ambulance service suspends 2 EMS crew members who thought living woman was dead



## MMiz (Mar 28, 2010)

*Ark. ambulance service suspends 2 EMS crew members who thought  living woman was dead*

LITTLE ROCK, Ark. (AP) — Officials say a woman lay in the yard of a west Little Rock home for more than three hours while ambulance crews, police and coroner's office officials debated whether she was dead or alive.

She was eventually taken to a hospital Friday morning by the third ambulance crew called to the scene.

Officials of Metropolitan Emergency Medical Services say they've suspended the senior members of the first two ambulance crews that concluded 52-year-old Pamela Harper had died, though she was still alive. 

*Read more*


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## el Murpharino (Mar 28, 2010)

Another shining moment for prehospital care....

I'd like to read that run report...


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## flhtci01 (Mar 28, 2010)

She fooled an ER doc too.:sad:


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## EMS49393 (Mar 28, 2010)

She didn't fool an ER doctor.  The ER doc pronounced the patient sight unseen based on what information was provided from the paramedic.  

This is a fail for the paramedics involved, period.  Suspended with pay, I'm betting they are some of the chosen few of MEMS wanded white shirts.  Jon Swanson will sweet talk his way out of this and his medics will return to protect the fine citizens of Little Rock very soon.

This is INEXCUSABLE.  Do an assessment, a complete assessment, and you'll never have this happen to you.


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## MS Medic (Mar 28, 2010)

EMS49393 said:


> She didn't fool an ER doctor.  The ER doc pronounced the patient sight unseen based on what information was provided from the paramedic. .


Actually there was nothing in the story to say if the ER doc was onscene or giving medical direction.



EMS49393 said:


> This is a fail for the paramedics involved, period.  Suspended with pay, I'm betting they are some of the chosen few of MEMS wanded white shirts.  Jon Swanson will sweet talk his way out of this and his medics will return to protect the fine citizens of Little Rock very soon.
> 
> This is INEXCUSABLE.  Do an assessment, a complete assessment, and you'll never have this happen to you.



I personally try to avoid armchair QBing a call without all the info which this story did not give. Why were the EMS crew and coroner trying to decide if the pt was dead or alive. 
Did she have a pulse?
Was there an ALS crew to put here on a monitor? Just because the news story called someone a paramedic does not mean the aurthor understands the difference between the different levels of training. 
The main problem I see here is a poorly written news story that does not give all the information and leads the reader to draw conclusions that may or may not be correct.
I want to know what the situation at the scene to cause the on scene personel to not be able to determine something that is usually pretty clear cut.


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## EMS49393 (Mar 29, 2010)

I worked for MEMS for two years.  ALL of their emergency crews are staffed by paramedics.  The paramedic is the only one allowed to run the call and transport a patient in that system.  The EMT on that ambulance is a driver.  They have a few transport ONLY BLS trucks that are not, under any circumstances allowed to run emergencies.  That is per the charter of the City of Little Rock for Little Rock Ambulance Authority.

They run a paramedic mill that spits out a new group of 8 paramedics every six months.  In the two years I was employed, four of these medic mill medics were busted back down to EMT by the state for some very severe mistakes.  

I accepted a job there as a paramedic hoping to get some fast, urban experience.  I gave it two years, and I just couldn't stand the so-called "burn out" that I witnessed every day.  No compassion, no standard of care, just a desire to go to work, do as little as possible, and collect a paycheck.

I'm embarrassed to have been a part of that.


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## Undecided (Mar 29, 2010)

MMiz said:


> Officials say a woman lay in the yard of a west Little Rock home for more than three hours



Not sure  how anyone is going to be able to adequately explain that.


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## triemal04 (Mar 29, 2010)

Undecided said:


> Not sure  how anyone is going to be able to adequately explain that.


Probably because that's how long it took to get the ME/Deputy ME (or coroner if that's used in Arkansas) and a funeral home to get there.


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## CAOX3 (Mar 29, 2010)

MS Medic said:


> Actually there was nothing in the story to say if the ER doc was onscene or giving medical direction.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Incompetence.


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## EMSLaw (Mar 29, 2010)

EMS49393 said:


> I worked for MEMS for two years.  ALL of their emergency crews are staffed by paramedics.  The paramedic is the only one allowed to run the call and transport a patient in that system.  The EMT on that ambulance is a driver.  They have a few transport ONLY BLS trucks that are not, under any circumstances allowed to run emergencies.  That is per the charter of the City of Little Rock for Little Rock Ambulance Authority.



So, medics can run at least a three- or four-lead in Arkansas, right, if not a twelve-lead?  How, then, was there a question of whether this woman was alive or dead.  And not only was she alive when they got there, but she was STILL ALIVE three hours later when they bothered to transport?  

I'm sure there's more to the story, but on the face of it, this one is hard to talk your way out of.


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## EMS49393 (Mar 30, 2010)

EMSLaw said:


> So, medics can run at least a three- or four-lead in Arkansas, right, if not a twelve-lead?  How, then, was there a question of whether this woman was alive or dead.  And not only was she alive when they got there, but she was STILL ALIVE three hours later when they bothered to transport?
> 
> I'm sure there's more to the story, but on the face of it, this one is hard to talk your way out of.



MEMS has 12-lead capabilities.  As I said, the paramedic is responsible for everything on the emergency ambulance.  EMT's function as drivers in that system, and do little more then drive.  They NEVER attend a patient, even on a BLS transfer, if they are assigned to an emergency (ALS) ambulance.


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## MS Medic (Mar 30, 2010)

I agree the situation looks pretty sketchy. The story really sucks though as a point to use to draw conclusions.


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## EMSLaw (Mar 30, 2010)

EMS49393 said:


> MEMS has 12-lead capabilities.  As I said, the paramedic is responsible for everything on the emergency ambulance.  EMT's function as drivers in that system, and do little more then drive.  They NEVER attend a patient, even on a BLS transfer, if they are assigned to an emergency (ALS) ambulance.



Okay, but that means that two paramedics on two seperate ambulances missed the fact that the patient was alive.  I, for one, would love to see the rest of the story.


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## medicdan (Mar 30, 2010)

Kelly Grayson had some interesting things to say about it...
http://ambulancedriverfiles.com/2010/03/the-truth-is-somewhere-between-the-extremes-part-ii/


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## Bloom-IUEMT (Mar 30, 2010)

emt.dan said:


> Kelly Grayson had some interesting things to say about it...
> http://ambulancedriverfiles.com/2010/03/the-truth-is-somewhere-between-the-extremes-part-ii/



Amazing. Does that sh-- really happen though?


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## Bloom-IUEMT (Mar 30, 2010)

http://www.ems1.com/special-reports...istaken-for-dead-by-EMS-succumbs-to-injuries/

http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/2...sending-him-to-morgue-in-mistaken-death-case/

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=3654178

http://www.news4jax.com/news/11191609/detail.html

Maybe it does happen


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