# EMS Goodbyes. aka bawwwquit.



## TgerFoxMark (Oct 1, 2009)

ok, now that the tread title has gotten some attention.

I think that im seeing a bit too many people leaving the fourm, and im wondering what we can do to retain the educators, and veterans, from whom we can learn from. 

now i know that many of us have gotten into arguments about volly/paid, wackerism, bls/als, ect. but i think now is a time to set aside those squabbles.

some of us are nice, but hiding away for now, others are rash, some are impudent, and others are just plain abrasive. but i think we can all learn from each other.

im sorry if i crossed the lines with this thread, and rrealize it may be  deleted on name alone.
I also know i have argued with a few of the people i have mentioned...not naming names, you know who you are.
but please, i want to learn more. and no, i dont really give a d@mn about the differences of styles of steths, or how you carry yours.


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## EMTinNEPA (Oct 1, 2009)

TgerFoxMark said:


> I think that im seeing a bit too many people leaving the fourm, and im wondering what we can do to retain the educators, and veterans, from whom we can learn from.



Imagine that you are the coordinator of a paramedic program.  You have 20+ years of field experience and you have been involved in every facet and setting of EMS, rural, urban, chase, private, municipal third, fire-based, educational, flight, hospital-based, political, etc.

Now imagine your class.  You have a few good students, people who want to learn and be the best paramedics they possibly can.  People who grow in this field by leaps and bounds every time you see them.  You'd no doubt be proud of these students.

Now imagine that the majority of your class don't care.  Imagine they they're just in class because their FD wanted them to be a paramedic, or because nursing school was full, or if it's just a pitstop on the way to PA or medical school.  Imagine that they possess less EMS knowledge than you flush into the sewer system on a daily basis during your morning constitutional, and they want to become paramedics as fast as possible with the least amount of work.

Now imagine that the school administration comes into your classroom and starts kicking the good students out of the program because they make the slackers feel stupid.  If your adjuncts protest, they are given the boot as well.

Would you stay?


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## Summit (Oct 1, 2009)

EMTinNEPA said:


> Imagine that you are the coordinator of a paramedic program.  You have 20+ years of field experience and you have been involved in every facet and setting of EMS, rural, urban, chase, private, municipal third, fire-based, educational, flight, hospital-based, political, etc.
> 
> Now imagine your class.  You have a few good students, people who want to learn and be the best paramedics they possibly can.  People who grow in this field by leaps and bounds every time you see them.  You'd no doubt be proud of these students.
> 
> ...



Wow...

You just earned a nail-on-the-head award!


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## surname_levi (Oct 1, 2009)

i have noticed it. i was thinking they might be busy :huh:?


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## enjoynz (Oct 1, 2009)

Ok I wasn't going to get into all of this.
But just want to make a couple of points.

1. I never had a problem with JP (Talking from a chatroom point of view), and up until yesterday, like many others I didn't know he was banned from the site.
He would not have been banned unless he broke EMTlife rules.The Mods have been says for months now they have had enough, Zero Tolerance just means that.
Just like every other person that gets sent packing.That is between the person banned and the Mods to sort through.

2. As far as this Team JP thing goes.What gives??????
You guys trying to turn the site into a us verses them. 5th grade gang forum.
I can only guess who is behind the idea. No surprises there really.

3. If you don't like it here...move on.
 I did from other EMS sites I was with. 
The one I was with, was a break away site. Meant to Educate EMS too the skies.
The site has been dead for the past 2 years.....why is that I wonder?
I'm not saying it not good to be well educated in this industry, it is. 
But some people tend to forget. We all start from the beginning..with the question about stethoscopes or whatever...so what!
Does that make that person not want to make the most of EMS. Noooooooooooooooo....it means they are willing to learn and need help selecting the tools of their trade. 
Just as you did when you started. There are threads for all degrees of information on here.
4. Just sort of wanted to add one more thing....this is a EMS site not and MD site. Having MD's or trainee doctors on here is great.
 They are not gods though, they are people. Some people tend to forget that at times.

Enjoynz


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## Summit (Oct 1, 2009)

enjoynz said:


> The one I was with, was a break away site. Meant to Educate EMS too the skies.
> The site has been dead for the past 2 years.....why is that I wonder?



Fieldmedics died because of mismanagement by the site owner. The site began to approach critical mass for the forum, which you have to do to get a self sustaining forum (you have to recruit up to that point and especially lock in good contributors). If there's not enough interesting activity on the site, people don't come back.

However, management decided to dilute the forums with too many subforums for the amount of traffic on the forum (something EMTLife has been very good about not doing) and then lock them from site of browsers with the idea of forcing them to join (something only the highest traffic forums ever consider, but few actually implement). The forum began to lose people. Membership went up, but views and posting went down. The site died a quiet death.

Management was warned by many with experience, but they thought they knew better.


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## Sasha (Oct 1, 2009)

A couple of points I'd like to make. I generally like this forum, I think it does a good job of staying on track. I know I am not well liked on this forum, especially by the moderators, and I don't really care. I take what I need from this forum, and that is the educational post. Thankfully I have contact information for those who have left that I care to keep in contact with to supplement the new lack of educational material on this forum.

I've noticed most (not all) of the people who are in dissent of this thread and the Open Letter are people who are no longer in EMS.

I'd also like to point out how slow the forum has been today, now that most of the "major players" have left, or are banned.

And yes, I was the first with "Team JPINFV". So what? We are not going around causing trouble, It's a simple custom user title and signature to show that we disagree with his ban. Does it change anything? No. Does it harm anything? No. I'll change it once his ban is up on 10/9.


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## Summit (Oct 1, 2009)

Sasha said:


> I've noticed most (not all) of the people who are in dissent of this thread and the Open Letter are people who are no longer in EMS.



Er... I'm trying to clearly read that... meaning those that do not agree with the premise of this thread are no longer in EMS? Or that those who started this thread are no longer in EMS?

Because I'm definitely using my EMT in a prehospital setting.


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## Sasha (Oct 1, 2009)

Summit said:


> Er... I'm trying to clearly read that... meaning those that do not agree with the premise of this thread are no longer in EMS? Or that those who started this thread are no longer in EMS?
> 
> Because I'm definitely using my EMT in a prehospital setting.



Those that do not agree with the premise of this thread and the open letter to MMiz are no longer in EMS.


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## Meursault (Oct 1, 2009)

EMTinNEPA said:


> or because nursing school was full, or if it's just a pitstop on the way to PA or medical school.



Are there still people who believe that EMS is "on the way" to med school? Mind you, I'm taking the scenic route.

Aside from that, you got it.


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## enjoynz (Oct 1, 2009)

Sasha means me Summit. And no I do not work on an ambulance anymore. 
No secrets there...I do have *retired* on my profile.
My husband does though....hence one of the reasons I still show an interest in EMS still.
What that has to do with anything being said on this thread. I have no idea.
Other than trying to get a dig in at me, because of the comments in my thread.

Enjoynz


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## Sasha (Oct 1, 2009)

enjoynz said:


> Sasha means me Summit. And no I do not work on an ambulance anymore.
> No secrets there...I do have *retired* on my profile.
> My husband does though....hence one of the reasons I still show an interest in EMS still.
> What that has to do with anything being said on this thread. I have no idea.
> ...



If it was just you, you would've been named but it's not just you, joy, relax. I am not attacking anyone.


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## Sasha (Oct 1, 2009)

> Now imagine that the majority of your class don't care. Imagine they they're just in class because their FD wanted them to be a paramedic, or because nursing school was full, or if it's just a pitstop on the way to PA or medical school.



That is not very accurate. The posters on this forum who'se future aspirations include medical school, PA school, nursing school, etc have for the most part proven them selves to be valuable additions to EMS. They are smart, they strive for professionalism during their time here.


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## EMTinNEPA (Oct 1, 2009)

I wasn't talking about you or JP.  I'm talking about those who take paramedic with the misconception that it will earn them brownie points when they apply to those programs.


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## mycrofft (Oct 1, 2009)

*Sasha, I don't think you're unliked...wait, why're we talking like 5th graders here?*

Is "reality television teaching us to make it all into a soap opera, zero-sum, him-or-me, smackdown thing? Or do more of us need to get a life?
I like you, but it's immaterial really. I've been a little tweaked by some people's posts and responses (strangely, none of your...so far!, but in the end it's all banter except for the good learning points.

I can  understand why people looking for this to be a pure Apollonian learning experience get frustrated, and I can understand when people who want to whiz past basic and advanced street level stuff get really impatient when some of us want to keep it at a lower level. Especially when they start obsessing about gunfighting and knives and other features which may reveal their _*true*_ ages (or levels of social development).

A website like this has to be part houseparty and part meaningful exchange.

You know, we have a basically unused chat channel. Why not do a "flash mob" there once a week but do it for educational purposes only? Get a guest speaker etc.? Or just agree to play it seriously and stick to a topic.

I like EMTLIFE, it's like my favorite pub; if you don't like it, take a breather down at Denny's, come on back later, we'll make room for you. Just don't start mouthing the customers or the management.


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## nomofica (Oct 1, 2009)

Amen, mycrofft. Couldn't have said it any better myself.


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## Seaglass (Oct 2, 2009)

EMTinNEPA said:


> I wasn't talking about you or JP.  I'm talking about those who take paramedic with the misconception that it will earn them brownie points when they apply to those programs.



I suspect those types usually don't care enough to stick around and contribute to an EMS forum, if they even join in the first place.


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## EMTinNEPA (Oct 2, 2009)

Seaglass said:


> I suspect those types usually don't care enough to stick around and contribute to an EMS forum, if they even join in the first place.



You mean like all the other unprofessional whacker "one-post wonders" the zero tolerance policy was put in place to appease?


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## Summit (Oct 2, 2009)

> I like EMTLIFE, it's like my favorite pub; if you don't like it, take a breather down at Denny's, come on back later, we'll make room for you. Just don't start mouthing the customers or the management.


If all you former EMS people are looking for a Pub, why are they on an EMS site?

I do like your comparison of present EMS Education to Dennys. :unsure:



mycrofft said:


> You know, we have a basically unused chat channel. Why not do a "flash mob" there once a week but do it for educational purposes only?



So education should be banished off to a chat room where the records are not kept for later reading. Got it. :wacko:


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## EMTinNEPA (Oct 2, 2009)

enjoynz said:


> 1. I never had a problem with JP (Talking from a chatroom point of view), and up until yesterday, like many others I didn't know he was banned from the site.
> He would not have been banned unless he broke EMTlife rules.The Mods have been says for months now they have had enough, Zero Tolerance just means that.
> Just like every other person that gets sent packing.That is between the person banned and the Mods to sort through.



He could also have been banned because he corrected or disagreed with somebody, that person whined to the mods, and that was that.  Poor whacker got his feelings hurt, so they have to fix it.



enjoynz said:


> 2. As far as this Team JP thing goes.What gives??????
> You guys trying to turn the site into a us verses them. 5th grade gang forum.
> I can only guess who is behind the idea. No surprises there really.



Are you familiar with the concept of nonviolent resistance?  The site got turned into us vs. them the second this policy was put in place.  I'm still convinced that the real purpose of the zero tolerance policy is to eliminate those advocating education, professionalism, and change.  Because if there are any things that large groups of the EMS population (read: volunteers and firefighters) fear, those things are medical education, professionalism, and ESPECIALLY change.



enjoynz said:


> 3. If you don't like it here...move on.
> I did from other EMS sites I was with.
> The one I was with, was a break away site. Meant to Educate EMS too the skies.
> The site has been dead for the past 2 years.....why is that I wonder?
> ...



I'm betting the site is dead because of the same reasons this site is dying... the whackers, volunteers, and firefighters don't want education or professionalism, they want a hobby or a patch.  And the ones that went there pulled the same "baaaaaawww" BS that the uneducated here are pulling.

I never asked for suggestions on stethoscopes.  I went out, tried several, then picked the one within my means that I liked best.  You know, like adults do.



enjoynz said:


> 4. Just sort of wanted to add one more thing....this is a EMS site not and MD site. Having MD's or trainee doctors on here is great.
> They are not gods though, they are people. Some people tend to forget that at times.



And there are no such things as medical directors, medical command, or Pre-Hospital Physicians?  EMS is MEDICINE... doctors are practitioners or medicine... that means that they should come into the discussion here.  They are providers with a MUCH MUCH higher level of education than you or I.  Translation, shut up and listen to them.


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## rescue99 (Oct 2, 2009)

Summit said:


> If all you former EMS people are looking for a Pub, why are they on an EMS site?
> 
> I do like your comparison of present EMS Education to Dennys. :unsure:
> 
> ...



 Losing educational threads seems to be the concern here. It is invaluable to have exceptional people take charge in leading meaningful discussions with all the bells and whistles of a class room. It would be useful to remember that a class room includes didactic content, discussions, agreements and sometimes hearty disagreements, theory, news and development. It's okay to sit back and relax and not play that role too but, once one chooses that role in a thread, he/she has an obligation to stay in keeping with the role as a leader.  NO school that I know of would ever sit idly by and allow any educator to  frequently call students stupid, ignorant, illiterate lemmings in the name of education. Agreeing and disagreeing doesn't include ripping a person to pieces..in fact, it is counter productive to the learning process. 

People are getting away from subject of education, mistakenly insisting that we have the right to display screaming, negative behavior to get our points across in every single thread nearly. It isn't like we can pick and choose. Some of these folks chase threads just to fight or show off or whatever the agenda  might be. Where's the professionalism in that? I've read a thousand times, loud and clear; "we want to be thought of as a profession." What purpose does interjecting constant negativism serve in this objective?? 

I have yet to meet anyone who learned a darned thing from a filthy mouthed educator. It's unethical and unnecessary and certainly makes an individual less than credible in my experience. When a lesson is filled with colorful adjectives, a learner must spend much of his/her time trying to sort adjectives from objectives. Meaning often gets lost in translation. Example: the reader is thinking "Am I stupid because the educator says I am or is the idea I have incorrect?" While I am busy subliminally or otherwise, attempting sort that out, the subject has already moved on and now I am lost! The only clear message I got was being called stupid! The entire objective is then lost and the educator has failed to reach his/her intended audience. 

Take home message; There is a huge difference between sugar coating and being affective.


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## mycrofft (Oct 2, 2009)

*Nope, Summit, you didn't get it. Not to worry.*

 I liken EMTLIFE to a pub. If you want totally tensely serious, go take CEU's for a grade and a certificate, or, as I have, PM or email people to get closer and better communication. Without the social component, these websiotes wither and die. And get dry and boring beforehand. 
"Denny's" was an extension of my metaphor of the pub, nt a critique of presentday EMS training. Personally judging by the new grads I think they don't spend enough time nowadays on selecting the proper gourd rattles and smoking incenses.

I didn't think about there being no way to save chatroom procedings. Except the SAVE button in the lower left, I just remembered that! Good point anyway.

I don't want the moderators to banish anything except the equivalent of someone jumping up on a table trying to start a riot. I have not even seen anything resembling a serious attempt at that,  maybe out of revolutionary incompetence. 

"Pub" is short of "public house", and there are two basic rules in a pub: don't cross the private owners (the house), and don't tick off the other customers (public).
S'all good.


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## enjoynz (Oct 2, 2009)

EMTinNEPA said:


> He could also have been banned because he corrected or disagreed with somebody, that person whined to the mods, and that was that.  Poor whacker got his feelings hurt, so they have to fix it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Talk about touche...seems I hit a bit of a raw nerve. 
It's funny how things always get turned around to FF's and Vollies yet again. LOL
I never once said I didn't appreciate Dr's (or nurses for that matter) input on this site or that I have not listened to them.
In fact I've had some very helpful information via PM from a member with regard to the cardiac problems within my family.
Which I was very grateful of.
I just said that they are not super human, like some think they are.
I know there seems to be alot of medic's over there that use EMS as a stepping stone to become Doctor's ...good on them.
I've always promoted that, with the folk I talk to on the chat,that are looking to that direction.
We don't tend to have that happen here, as it makes for a very lenghty education, with the time already spent in university for a Paramedic degree.
As far as Doctors and nurses with regards to feild medicine,unless they are involve with it, they do have issues.
I can speak first hand as far as having a nurse turn up at an incident with nothing but her bare hands.
Who then handed the pt's over to me (I was not on duty) because I was EMS trained. Much to my surprise at the time, I must admit.
I have a sister-in-law that is a GP...I've asked her advise in the past. Which she has been unable to help me with, because of her lack of knowledge with field medicine.
These are just a few of the things I've observed first hand.
My reason for the comment about the doctor's was because of something someone else posted, that irked me.

Enjoynz


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## Summit (Oct 2, 2009)

rescue99 said:


> Losing educational threads seems to be the concern here. It is invaluable to have exceptional people take charge in leading meaningful discussions with all the bells and whistles of a class room. It would be useful to remember that a class room includes didactic content, discussions, agreements and sometimes hearty disagreements, theory, news and development. It's okay to sit back and relax and not play that role too but, once one chooses that role in a thread, he/she has an obligation to stay in keeping with the role as a leader.  NO school that I know of would ever sit idly by and allow any educator to  frequently call students stupid, ignorant, illiterate lemmings in the name of education. Agreeing and disagreeing doesn't include ripping a person to pieces..in fact, it is counter productive to the learning process.



I guess I'm not seeing all of this bad behavior or out of line attacks from educators except in one or two rare cases where the discussion got really heated because the other side started slinging insults first or belittling the information providers for providing information that maybe they didn't want to hear. That's why I'm saying the people whining are thin skinned as hell.

The "fights" that occur in this place are about as bad as a watergun duel compared to the knock down dragout flamewars fought with chainsaws and nuclear weapons on other internet forums.


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## TgerFoxMark (Oct 2, 2009)

wow. looks like the thread really got some attention. Now, to move on, what can we do, as members, to bring the site back to the level of participation, and former movement towards helping EMS?

(and yes, im in med school. but i still am an EMT)


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## rescue99 (Oct 2, 2009)

Summit said:


> I guess I'm not seeing all of this bad behavior or out of line attacks from educators except in one or two rare cases where the discussion got really heated because the other side started slinging insults first or belittling the information providers for providing information that maybe they didn't want to hear. That's why I'm saying the people whining are thin skinned as hell.
> 
> The "fights" that occur in this place are about as bad as a watergun duel compared to the knock down dragout flamewars fought with chainsaws and nuclear weapons on other internet forums.



The difference is, this not a weapons or war forum. Those are more political. This forum claims education is one if its primary focus. I gave a few suggestions about talking to an audience which goes for both sides of the fence...experienced and inexperienced.


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## Summit (Oct 2, 2009)

rescue99 said:


> The difference is, this not a weapons or war forum. Those are more political. This forum claims education is one if its primary focus. I gave a few suggestions about talking to an audience which goes for both sides of the fence...experienced and inexperienced.



Either you didn't understand the analogy or you are missing the point which is that in honeest and open debate between passionate people (EMS providers) about passionate subjects (EMS), there will be tempers and scuffed feelings. The only way not to have that is to end debate.


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## rescue99 (Oct 2, 2009)

Summit said:


> Either you didn't understand the analogy or you are missing the point which is that in honeest and open debate between passionate people (EMS providers) about passionate subjects (EMS), there will be tempers and scuffed feelings. The only way not to have that is to end debate.



Then we agree to disagree.


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## Crepitus (Oct 2, 2009)

Summit said:


> . . . . the point which is that in honeest and open debate between passionate people (EMS providers) about passionate subjects (EMS), there will be tempers and scuffed feelings. The only way not to have that is to end debate.



Well I would agree with Summit about the tempers and scuffed feelings.  It is going to continue to occur.

But I don't consider that education.  In all my years of formal education I found tempers and scuffed feelings to be an infrequent occurence and even less frequently did they require the use of a moderator.  Of course the internet format creates a new set of issues (and probably draws in a whole different class of learners).



rescue99 said:


> Losing educational threads seems to be the concern here. It is invaluable to have exceptional people take charge in leading meaningful discussions with all the bells and whistles of a class room. It would be useful to remember that a class room includes didactic content, discussions, agreements and sometimes hearty disagreements, theory, news and development. It's okay to sit back and relax and not play that role too but, once one chooses that role in a thread, he/she has an obligation to stay in keeping with the role as a leader.  NO school that I know of would ever sit idly by and allow any educator to  frequently call students stupid, ignorant, illiterate lemmings in the name of education. Agreeing and disagreeing doesn't include ripping a person to pieces..in fact, it is counter productive to the learning process.



I think Rescue essentially said the same thing.  

In my short time here, I've observed some very intelligent folks, some very knowledgable people - as an older, crusty type coming back I'm blown away by the increase in the knowledge level of those who practice paramedicine.  Unfortunately, most of those folks don't present themselves as having the hearts of eductors.  At least not the way I was 'educated'.  Though perhaps that has changed as well. :unsure:


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## TransportJockey (Oct 2, 2009)

Holy hell... I'm not here for a week and old timers leave? Someone PM me with what happened.... please...


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## Summit (Oct 3, 2009)

Crepitus said:


> Well I would agree with Summit about the tempers and scuffed feelings.  It is going to continue to occur.
> 
> But I don't consider that education.  In all my years of formal education I found tempers and scuffed feelings to be an infrequent occurence and even less frequently did they require the use of a moderator.  Of course the internet format creates a new set of issues (and probably draws in a whole different class of learners).



Agree on the different set of issues in online collaborative forum based education, however, COMPLETELY disagree on the lack of education from debates on here.

From my post in a now locked thread:



Summit said:


> I can say that I've gained gobs of knowledge here when the debates rage and the intelligent, the educated, and the experienced contributors post up long posts detailing the evidence and the experience behind their points. And they don't always agree! That lead to the most informative threads of all!


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## mycrofft (Oct 3, 2009)

*Fuggedaboudit.*

This is part of the natural life cycle of a forum which is not too constricted.

If people are this emotionally invested, it's working, but it can be "too-working" sometimes. I don't understand the taking of "sides" unless people are bored and looking for competitive entertainment; frankly, the basic fare aside from the participants' viewpoints is dry and irritating in its repetitiveness, but trying to make it into some sort of dominance game including self-proclaimed arbiters and armchair cagefighters means you are only seeing it on two dimensions.

Unless you are a  wheelchair van wannabe (not a bad start,actually...), you must have been party to really serious stuff. Anytime this seems intense, I just remember a twelve year old's brains on my pants or a guy dying after his birthday dinner being defibbed in a gutter while his wife watches, and I realize these little wars are party games.

Party games.

Count to three, come on back, and let's quit trying to pull rank on one another, we're being silly. ​


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## Hal9000 (Oct 5, 2009)

mycrofft said:


> Unless you are a  wheelchair van wannabe (not a bad start,actually...)
> Party games.



Ahh...the mythical job.  There are some around here that manage to get those gigs.  And some days...I hear them call in.  There is this note of in their voice...it speaks of being well-rested, of light paperwork loads, of joy-filled romps through fields of blooming wildflowers, of clean, pure air...  

And yes, sometimes I wish to kidnap them and stash them in my basement so I might get such an assignment.  But, as my best friend noted, I'd have to get rid of all of the transients chained up down there, so I still ride and ambulance.  :huh:

Seriously, you bring up very good points.  I applaud you.  Now I've got to go feed my pet homeless.


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