# Arming EMT's and Paramedics



## DWemt28 (May 25, 2011)

So I was reading an article the other day about EMTs and paramedics possibly being armed one of these days. Just out of curiosity I want to get some opinions on the issue from some fellow users  :huh:


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## Backwoods (May 25, 2011)

With my experiences gleaned from ride alongs, I dont think they should. The police where almost always on scene when we got there. But I can see why people's opinion differ in a rural area where it is the sheriff's territory.


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## sir.shocksalot (May 25, 2011)

There are zero reasons for a Paramedic/EMT/Nurse/Therapist/PA/NP/Physician/Surgeon/Lunch lady to be armed in healthcare. If you don't feel safe, walk away and call the cops. Let the people with the training and experience (and equipment) deal with potentially volatile situations. I guarantee two things if Paramedics/EMTs became armed:

1) Some dumdum dingleberry will shoot a patient unnecessarily, or shoot one correctly and then refuse to treat.

2) Some inattentive poor sod will get shot with his own weapon.

When either one of the above happens, fingers will start pointing. Hell, Cops have 110% more reasons to carry a weapon and shoot people than we do, and they still get in trouble.

Also, doesn't having something to purposefully injure our patients seem counter-productive, and rather out of the "spirit" of the work?


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## Sandog (May 25, 2011)

sir.shocksalot said:


> There are zero reasons for a Paramedic/EMT/Nurse/Therapist/PA/NP/Physician/Surgeon/Lunch lady to be armed in healthcare. If you don't feel safe, walk away and call the cops. Let the people with the training and experience (and equipment) deal with potentially volatile situations. I guarantee two things if Paramedics/EMTs became armed:
> 
> 1) Some dumdum dingleberry will shoot a patient unnecessarily, or shoot one correctly and then refuse to treat.
> 
> ...



Spot on...


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## HotelCo (May 25, 2011)

This has been discussed ad nauseam. Do a search and look at one of the 73747294747292937 threads about this. 

Mods: can we close this?


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## CAOX3 (May 25, 2011)

DWemt28 said:


> So I was reading an article the other day about EMTs and paramedics possibly being armed one of these days. Just out of curiosity I want to get some opinions on the issue from some fellow users  :huh:



Ummmm no.

Half of them are lucky their allowed to touch something thats sharp.


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## ArcticKat (May 25, 2011)

And the other half are lucky enough to know the difference between they're and their.


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## ClarkEMS (May 25, 2011)

*Israeli Medics*

When I rode with Israeli medics, some of them did carry pistols, but there is a clear difference between these medics and American medics. The main difference is that Israel is a nation constantly at war with these medics routinely entering closed military zones to access patients. The other reason is that Israel is a small country with nearly the entire population trained in weaponry due to mandatory army service. Unless these reasons are coming to the US, I don't see a need for armed EMTs/Paramedics. We aren't entering war zones, the majority of us don't have weapons training, and lets face it, someone would do something stupid. 

Verdict: I really hope we don't start carrying weapons or else we are going to be doing tons more paperwork and causing patients.


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## medicdan (May 25, 2011)

ClarkEMS said:


> When I rode with Israeli medics, some of them did carry pistols, but there is a clear difference between these medics and American medics. The main difference is that Israel is a nation constantly at war with these medics routinely entering closed military zones to access patients. The other reason is that Israel is a small country with nearly the entire population trained in weaponry due to mandatory army service. Unless these reasons are coming to the US, I don't see a need for armed EMTs/Paramedics. We aren't entering war zones, the majority of us don't have weapons training, and lets face it, someone would do something stupid.
> 
> Verdict: I really hope we don't start carrying weapons or else we are going to be doing tons more paperwork and causing patients.



Agreed. I had the same experience. Some PD-based services, however, do have armed medics providing care (Maryland state police comes to mind), but that comes with extensive training and experience with weapon retention. 

Dt4EMS, you around?


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## usafmedic45 (May 25, 2011)

> Some PD-based services, however, do have armed medics providing care (Maryland state police comes to mind), but that comes with extensive training and experience with weapon retention.



Yes, and we all know how on the cutting edge of prehospital medicine Maryland is.


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## medichopeful (May 25, 2011)

Like Hockey said, this has been discussed before.

That being said, they absolutely should not carry firearms, with the possible exception of tactical EMS.  What would patients think if they found out we were packing heat?  It wouldn't do a lot for patient-provider trust I can tell you that!


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## mycrofft (May 25, 2011)

*MMMMMMMMMMMmfl! Mfl!Mfffffl! MMMMMMMMfl!*






Naw, have a good day.


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## samiam (May 25, 2011)

"Do no harm"   I think it is safe to say that shooting someone in the face would constitute harm.


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## medicdan (May 25, 2011)

I agree, this has been beaten to death before, but I'll ask another question. If we agree providers should not be armed, how about others in the vehicle. How do you feel about armed Corrections Officers while transporting a prisoner?


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## mycrofft (May 25, 2011)

*Our officers did not carry firearms in the ambulance*

The chase car had their sidearm, as well as an armed deputy. I understand state prison transfers to their contract hospital facilites off-site include armed CO's, but the pt/inmate is five point manacled.

By the way, the local prison ward at the hospital is unique. One end of the room is mostly one-way mirror bullet proof glass with a gun port facing into the vehicle sally where they are brought in/leave through, and into the treatment area/open ward. Pt's/inmates are chained to the beds at all times except to use the tolet (behind a curtain lowering to knee height so feet are visible at all times); if they leave the room, they are once more five pointed onto a gurney, and spitmasked if need be.


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## HotelCo (May 25, 2011)

Paramedics around here do carry concealed firearms. The point is: THEY'RE CONCEALED. If you carry a concealed firearm properly, no one should know you're carrying unless you have to fire it. Plain and simple.


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## CAOX3 (May 25, 2011)

ArcticKat said:


> And the other half are lucky enough to know the difference between they're and their.



Come on now, ok maybe I shouldn't have taken the six am Modern English  grammer class.


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## HotelCo (May 25, 2011)

CAOX3 said:


> Come on now, ok maybe I shouldn't have taken the six am Modern English  grammer class.



6AM classes should be banned. The root of all evil.


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## crazycajun (May 25, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> Paramedics around here do carry concealed firearms. The point is: THEY'RE CONCEALED. If you carry a concealed firearm properly, no one should know you're carrying unless you have to fire it. Plain and simple.



Is this legal? I know federal law prohibits carrying firearms in Hospitals.


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## HotelCo (May 25, 2011)

crazycajun said:


> I know federal law prohibits carrying firearms in Hospitals.



No it doesn't.

Cite the law.


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## FLdoc2011 (May 25, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> No it doesn't.
> 
> Cite the law.



This.    

No federal law against it.    But the "off-limit" places varies widely among individual states so you'll have to check state law.


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## HotelCo (May 25, 2011)

The gentlemen carrying is not a LEO.


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## nwhitney (May 25, 2011)

crazycajun said:


> Is this legal? I know federal law prohibits carrying firearms in Hospitals.



Depends on the hospital.  Private hospitals and other private businesses can ban firearms from their premise if they wish.  Federal buildings prohibit firearms regardless of permits.  Maybe if there are any federal hospitals such as military hospitals.


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## emt seeking first job (May 25, 2011)

*yes and no, honestly, unsure*

It is not that far out there.

EMS in Town of Greenburgh, NY (suburb of nyc)  is a function of the Town of Greenburgh Police.

http://www.greenburghny.com/cit-e-access/webpage.cfm?TID=10&TPID=2853

In NYC I have mixed feelings.

Possibly for a supervisor.

In NYC, 20 years ago, NYPD was dispatched to injured calls. Now they are not.

If EMS were given firearms, there would have to be quite a bit more training, supervison and standards of conduct.

They should not going looking to insert themselves in a situation and if they encounter it they should call in a tactical unit. Just as a beat cop or radio patrol unit would.

In some ways, having the option if ambushed or cornored would be beneficial.

It would also be a deterent.

I do think EMTs and Paramedics should be given some level of law enforcement status to be able to make an arrest if necessary and so that if someone assaults an EMT or Paramedic it is always a felony. Not every area has such a law.

I also think the protocols should be modified to allow EMS to apply restraints for certain patients.

REMEMBER, even an actual police officer if he or she encounters and active shooting situation, they retreat and take cover / concealment and await a tactical unit. 

You can always make the argument why anyone should not be armed, police in the UK, USA University, Airport, Transit, Park or Bridge/Tunnel Police.

As I said, they would have to ramp up the standards, though.


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## nwhitney (May 25, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> The gentlemen carrying is not a LEO.



Right but he isn't carrying concealed.


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## emt seeking first job (May 25, 2011)

nwhitney said:


> Depends on the hospital.  Private hospitals and other private businesses can ban firearms from their premise if they wish.  Federal buildings prohibit firearms regardless of permits.  Maybe if there are any federal hospitals such as military hospitals.




In every hospital I see, they make everyone LEO or not stow a weapon before going to a secure psych unit. Not sure if that is a law or just a common practice.


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## nwhitney (May 25, 2011)

emt seeking first job said:


> I do think EMTs and Paramedics should be given some level of law enforcement status to be able to make an arrest if necessary and so that if someone assaults an EMT or Paramedic it is always a felony. Not every area has such a law.



Gets kinda tricky with private ambulance companies.


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## HotelCo (May 25, 2011)

nwhitney said:


> Right but he isn't carrying concealed.



Nope. Concealed carry in a hospital is, in Michigan, illegal (for now), without being excempt from the zones by way of a few avenues. One way is to become a police reserve officer, and you're set. (100 hour-ish course).

Michigan will soon wise up, and realize that the PFZ is irrational because I can already carry a firearm in there.... but we're getting off topic.


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## ShotMedic (May 25, 2011)

I could definitely see why people would want to protect themselves, just like you would do at your own private residence, but at the same time there is really nothing to personally protect at the station or at work I can see. If they want the Narcs, ambulance, or radios they can have it! I'm not gonna stop them. Now would it be nice to have a back up plan (Sig Sauer acp) in case they were to try anything a little more daring? of course.


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## FLdoc2011 (May 25, 2011)

Just carrying a gun does not mean you automatically jump into situations you normally wouldn't.  The same arguments are used against private citizens who choose to carry concealed/open.... that towns would turn into a wild west shoot out, you would be shot with your own weapon, hoards of armed citizens would accidentally shoot each other while trying to stop crimes, and none of these really came true.  

This really isn't a thread about 2A issues or private citizen concealed carry, but just wanted to point out that non-LEO's are more than capable of carrying concealed in a responsible and safe manner.  To argue that this would be inherently unsafe for medics to carry is just wrong in my opinion.    

The issue will always be though that I'm sure private amb companies probably have company rules prohibiting employees from carrying.  So even if not illegal then you're probably risking your job.


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## crazycajun (May 25, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> No it doesn't.
> 
> Cite the law.



Federal Law prohibits firearms in any building containing federal employees or agents for the Federal Government. If the hospital accepts Medicare they are required to have a billing specialist acting as an agent for the Federal Dept. of HHS. Although this is rarely enforced it is a law. Louisiana vs. Cecil 1998. Decision to prosecute upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court after Mr. Cecil entered a hospital with a firearm (9mm pistol) and refused to leave. I taught CWP for 9 years. I am also an FFL dealer. I am a huge open carry supporter however I have never seen the need for an EMT or Medic to carry on the job. I think it is a really bad idea.

BTW Louisiana has the most relaxed gun laws in the country IMO.


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## medichopeful (May 25, 2011)

emt seeking first job said:


> .
> 
> *I do think EMTs and Paramedics should be given some level of law enforcement status to be able to make an arrest if necessary *and so that if someone assaults an EMT or Paramedic it is always a felony. Not every area has such a law.



In regards to the bold part, why?  We are there as healthcare providers, not for law enforcement.  Think of this: you have a patient who has been using illegal drugs.  You ask them what they've been using, and they tell you to screw off.  Why?  They know you can arrest them.  What happens?  They don't get the care they need.

People don't like admitting to things when they know they can get arrested or in trouble for it.  I've asked police officers and institutional security officers to step out of the room when assessing a patient.  Why?  The officer can get that person into trouble if they admit to something.  Why should we make it so the people there to help them can do the same?

As far as the second part goes (the non-bold part), I'm all for that.  THAT is reasonable, the other thing is not.



> I also think the protocols should be modified to allow EMS to apply restraints for certain patients.



I don't have a major problem with EMS personnel assisting PD restrain somebody if there's a reason to, like they're being violent or they're posing a risk to themselves or others, as long as the EMT/Paramedic isn't in major danger.  But I do NOT think EMS should be arresting people.  Restraining?  At times, yes.  Arresting?  Hell no!
[/QUOTE]


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## ClarkEMS (May 25, 2011)

emt.dan said:


> I agree, this has been beaten to death before, but I'll ask another question. If we agree providers should not be armed, how about others in the vehicle. How do you feel about armed Corrections Officers while transporting a prisoner?



I think we need to look at this as a specific situation. If the patient can cause harm to us, like a prisoner, then why not have an armed guard with the patient restrained...in fact, I think we should have 2 armed guards in that situation with a following vehicle. The problem this presents, though, is that situation of a prisoner or person in custody grabbing hold of the guard's weapon. Ambulances are relatively small, so this creates an opportunity for a dangerous patient to grab hold of a weapon. 

On another note, going to back to our previous statements about armed EMTs, we should keep in mind that a patient could easily grab our firearm and use it against us. No matter what, we are always going to be in danger, but having an armed guard with us in special situations could be a benefit as they are more qualified to handle these dangerous patients than we are. 

Here is another question to think about, should prisons have separate ambulances staffed with medical and protective personnel?


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## samiam (May 25, 2011)

crazycajun said:


> *Federal Law prohibits firearms in any building containing federal employees or agents for the Federal Government. If the hospital accepts Medicare they are required to have a billing specialist acting as an agent for the Federal Dept. of HHS.* Although this is rarely enforced it is a law. Louisiana vs. Cecil 1998. Decision to prosecute upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court after Mr. Cecil entered a hospital with a firearm (9mm pistol) and refused to leave. I taught CWP for 9 years. I am also an FFL dealer. I am a huge open carry supporter however I have never seen the need for an EMT or Medic to carry on the job. I think it is a really bad idea.
> 
> BTW Louisiana has the most relaxed gun laws in the country IMO.



Can you please cite.. from what I know It is only in a federal facility which is defined as  "1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties." 

A hospital does not really fall under this... owned or leased

Thanks   

Cite  
TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 930

§ 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities


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## HotelCo (May 25, 2011)

crazycajun said:


> Federal Law prohibits firearms in any building containing federal employees or agents for the Federal Government. If the hospital accepts Medicare they are required to have a billing specialist acting as an agent for the Federal Dept. of HHS. Although this is rarely enforced it is a law. Louisiana vs. Cecil 1998. Decision to prosecute upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court after Mr. Cecil entered a hospital with a firearm (9mm pistol) and refused to leave. I taught CWP for 9 years. I am also an FFL dealer. I am a huge open carry supporter however I have never seen the need for an EMT or Medic to carry on the job. I think it is a really bad idea.
> 
> BTW Louisiana has the most relaxed gun laws in the country IMO.



Do you have a link to Louisiana vs. Cecil? I can't find it.

Also, what law are you referring to that bars firearms in buildings containing federal employees? That would mean a supermarket is off limits if an agent was in there, or any other building. 

I call BS.


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## JPINFV (May 25, 2011)

crazycajun said:


> Federal Law prohibits firearms in any building containing federal employees or agents for the Federal Government. If the hospital accepts Medicare they are required to have a billing specialist acting as an agent for the Federal Dept. of HHS.


That presumes that the billing staff is housed in the same building as clinical operations.


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## JPINFV (May 25, 2011)

emt seeking first job said:


> In some ways, having the option if ambushed or cornored would be beneficial.


Rare, and you're already screwed if that happens.


> It would also be a deterent.


...alternatively, dial 911 and ask for an ambulance as a firearms delivery service. 



> I do think EMTs and Paramedics should be given some level of law enforcement status to be able to make an arrest if necessary and so that if someone assaults an EMT or Paramedic it is always a felony. Not every area has such a law.


If only there was some way to amend the law. Oh, wait...
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEJL2Uuv-oQ[/YOUTUBE]



> I also think the protocols should be modified to allow EMS to apply restraints for certain patients.


Like which patients? 


> REMEMBER, even an actual police officer if he or she encounters and active shooting situation, they retreat and take cover / concealment and await a tactical unit.


Not since Columbine. Active shooter means you advance towards the shooter, ignoring any casualties, with how many, or few, people you have on scene.


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## HotelCo (May 25, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> ...alternatively, dial 911 and ask for an ambulance as a firearms delivery service.



How would that be any different than calling 911 for PD, and taking their gun?

Or... I could just walk down the road a few miles, and pay the shady guy on the street corner $30 for a nice shiny pistol.

The second seems the easier choice to me. You have the firearm either way, but in the second scenario, you needn't worry about attracting attention to yourself.


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## JPINFV (May 25, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> How would that be any different than calling 911 for PD, and taking their gun?


Would you rather pick a fight with the average police officer or the average paramedic? 



> Or... I could just walk down the road a few miles, and pay the shady guy on the street corner $30 for a nice shiny pistol.


True.


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## mycrofft (May 25, 2011)

*From another thread, posted by "IAems"*

http://www.paramedicduquebec.org/doc...Fatalities.pdf 

Over five years (1992-1997), nine U.S. EMS workers died due to assault, including _*all*_ nurses, aides, attendants/orderlies, physician assistants, and technologists/technicicans likely to be EMS workers, an average of two (well, 1.8) annually. This does not include fierfighters without a specific designator as an EMS worker, nor law enforcement. It does not diffferentiate between on the job assaults by patients, co-workers, or others. It does potentially include armed EMS, however few those are, actually or officially. It also does not include volunteers.

My dime is on the lilttle square that says pizza delivery guys nationwide have a higher per-capita ratio, and surely some of them do go armed.


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## HotelCo (May 25, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> Would you rather pick a fight with the average police officer or the average paramedic?



Why would they fight either? Shoot them when they arrive on scene, and take the pistol. Cops, or paramedics... a shot to the head will suck either way.


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## mycrofft (May 25, 2011)

*Boys, boys..*

Her's a poll we had about our participants and firearms, along with three pages of commentary:
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=14014

I notice extremely few females in the conversation.


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## DWemt28 (May 26, 2011)

Any opinions on less lethal force? I thought that was an interesting concept too.


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## RoxyGurL (Jun 2, 2011)

I didn't read this entire thread...it's a bit lengthy. Excuse me if I am repeating myself. Disclaimer: I am a newly certified EMT-IV

We took an oath to care for people...we help people....we will be dealing with people on the worst day of their lives more than likely. Our position requires trust to do our job correctly. How can someone fully trust a medic or EMT if they are carrying a sidearm? First do no harm. If they see a sidearm they will become anxious, etc...

Sure...I have a carry permit. I carry it on my own time. I totally believe in the right to bear arms.

Also....all it takes is one hypoglycemic or psych patient to take your weapon and turn it on you. Plus, I would not want that responsibility.


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## DrParasite (Jun 2, 2011)

RoxyGurL said:


> We took an oath to care for people...we help people....we will be dealing with people on the worst day of their lives more than likely. Our position requires trust to do our job correctly. How can someone fully trust a medic or EMT if they are carrying a sidearm? First do no harm. If they see a sidearm they will become anxious, etc...


ummm don't cops take a similar oath?  they help save more lives than EMS does on a regular basis, and that's why people want to become cops, not EMS workers.  I don't see people in need not trusting cops because of a sidearm.  yes, the criminals might not trust the cops, but the majority of the public will still call for a cop when they need a cop's assistance.


RoxyGurL said:


> Sure...I have a carry permit. I carry it on my own time. I totally believe in the right to bear arms.


so you will carry a gun on you when you go to the mall, go shopping, and hang out with the family, but don't think you should have a gun on you with you when you respond to a housing project full of crackheads and drug deals?  or a report of a person stabbed or shot?  or even better, when you respond to a cardiac arrest, and the family says "if you don't save momma's life, we are going to kill you?"


RoxyGurL said:


> Also....all it takes is one hypoglycemic or psych patient to take your weapon and turn it on you.


couldn't the same argument be give for a law enforcement officer in the back of an ambulance with a psych patient?  or one who is assisting you in dealing with a hypoglycemic combative patient?


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## crazycajun (Jun 2, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> ummm don't cops take a similar oath?  they help save more lives than EMS does on a regular basis, and that's why people want to become cops, not EMS workers.  I don't see people in need not trusting cops because of a sidearm.  yes, the criminals might not trust the cops, but the majority of the public will still call for a cop when they need a cop's assistance.
> so you will carry a gun on you when you go to the mall, go shopping, and hang out with the family, but don't think you should have a gun on you with you when you respond to a housing project full of crackheads and drug deals?  or a report of a person stabbed or shot?  or even better, when you respond to a cardiac arrest, and the family says "if you don't save momma's life, we are going to kill you?"
> couldn't the same argument be give for a law enforcement officer in the back of an ambulance with a psych patient?  or one who is assisting you in dealing with a hypoglycemic combative patient?



Cops take an oath to protect the community by enforcing laws. We take an oath to provide medical care in a pre-hospital setting. Big difference.

Please explain how cops actually SAVE more lives than EMS workers.

If your theory was correct then the applicants for law enforcement would be on the incline not the decline. However, EMS has seen a rapid incline in applications and a steady 9% job growth rate over the past several years. EMS also has an anticipated 19% growth rate in the next 2 years making it the fastest and largest growing job opportunity in the U.S.

Many people that are not criminals are still intimidated by the police. Most will tell you it is the GUN and attitude they fear the most.

I also have a CWP and carry while off duty. I enter into housing projects everyday I work, see crackheads and drug dealers on a regular basis and transport more GSW and Stabbings than most on this site. I am a white guy and have never had a problem. Furthermore if you arrive on a cardiac arrest and are threatened, LOAD AND GO. Call dispatch while in route and have them notify police and let THEM DO THEIR JOB.

As far as weapons on our units. No One is allowed to have a loaded weapon in the back of our units period. We have a safe locker at the back door under the bench and all Law enforcement are required to either put it in there or follow in their unit. We don't want some idiot fighting for a gun endangering everyone in the back of our units.

If you feel the need and are that scared maybe it is time to find a different company to work for. I have been in the middle of fights, rolled up on scene to find drugs and guns laying around and even wanted criminals. I just do my job because those things don't matter unless they are intended to harm me.

We got a call a while back for a GSW. We arrived on scene before police. It happened to be a gang member. Got out of the unit and was told "DO SOMETHING". After a quick assessment I told the 4 young men standing there that there was nothing I could do. The hole in his chest was the size of my fist and the heart was destroyed. I explained that without a heart it was impossible to revive him. Were they mad? Of Course. Were they screaming and yelling? Pissed Off? Of course. Did they take it out on me? Nope. After the coroner arrived and we were loading to leave 2 of the guys came up and thanked my partner and I for covering their friend with a sheet instead of just leaving him bleeding in the street for everyone to see. I seen one of those guys this evening at a local store. He came up, shook my hand and told me to let him know if I needed anything. Try being a cop and have that same outcome.


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## bigbaldguy (Jun 2, 2011)

Here's my idea. All medics wear explosive vests that have sensors implanted in our hearts. If our hearts stop vest goes off and takes out everything in a 3 block radius. Guaranteed protection. Oh sure the occasional station might be taken out by some old codger that drops from an MI at work but other than that it's full proof.


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## subliminal1284 (Jun 3, 2011)

No way in hell, there are a plethora of police officers out there who cant even handle a gun properly, or use good judgement when to use it and they have had extensive training. If you really feel the need to protect yourself carry a can of pepper spray and or some kubatons in your cargo pocket.


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## freebyrd (Jun 3, 2011)

DWemt28 said:


> So I was reading an article the other day about EMTs and paramedics possibly being armed one of these days. Just out of curiosity I want to get some opinions on the issue from some fellow users  :huh:



bad idea from my point of view.
keep in mind i am a huge gun enthusiast and former competition shooter in i.d.p.a
i think it sends the wrong message
we already have overarmed overly aggressive p.d. running around all over the place,
let them do what they are paid to do i'll stay uphill and upwind until the smoke clears B)


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## freebyrd (Jun 3, 2011)

crazycajun said:


> Federal Law prohibits firearms in any building containing federal employees or agents for the Federal Government. If the hospital accepts Medicare they are required to have a billing specialist acting as an agent for the Federal Dept. of HHS. Although this is rarely enforced it is a law. Louisiana vs. Cecil 1998. Decision to prosecute upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court after Mr. Cecil entered a hospital with a firearm (9mm pistol) and refused to leave. I taught CWP for 9 years. I am also an FFL dealer. I am a huge open carry supporter however I have never seen the need for an EMT or Medic to carry on the job. I think it is a really bad idea.
> 
> BTW Louisiana has the most relaxed gun laws in the country IMO.


wow! i am surprised you can say that after katrina, where officials came right out and said you can't have guns!
there are even videos where police are actively disarming your citizens!
i know of one elderly lady who was disarmed on video by stinking california highway patrol that were imported just for such a scenario

it all go's back to 29 palms no matter how great you think your gun laws are,given the right set of circumstances your "paid representatives" will issue emergency edicts and then send in foreign thugs to enforce an unlawful order.

the whole conduct is shameful, but it happened none the less even in gun friendly Louisiana.
Texas would fare no better when push comes to shove, unless you have a group of gun owners that really believe in from my cold dead hands.

sadly for the most part thats just a slogan on a t-shirt imho


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## crazycajun (Jun 3, 2011)

freebyrd said:


> wow! i am surprised you can say that after Katrina, where officials came right out and said you can't have guns!
> there are even videos where police are actively disarming your citizens!
> i know of one elderly lady who was disarmed on video by stinking California highway patrol that were imported just for such a scenario
> 
> ...



Not sure where the video's are located but that is something I never heard about. I know people that went to shelters were not allowed to have firearms and some resisted. However I felt that was in the best interest of everyone as there were many children in shelters that were wide open areas with no way to secure a weapon. In fact, homeowners in New Orleans were encouraged to arm themselves to protect their property and themselves.


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## CANMAN (Jun 3, 2011)

Crazycajun, while I don't doubt that there are some hardened areas in South Carolina the incident you described leaves me to question A: how long you have been in EMS and B: how to you "arrive" on the scene of a shooting prior to P.D. arrival and decide to enter the scene?? Those kind of actions can and will get you killed one day and for someone who appears to be very educated about firearms, laws, etc I question why you even put yourself in said situation. 

The described call could have gone very different if the so called "gangsters" decided they didn't like your answer of "we can't do anything for him" and pulled out their gun and shot you, without the protection of LE on scene. Sometimes no amount of smooth talking will get you out of a bad situation. All it takes is to get into a situation one time, with someone who has a short fuse, no brains, or no worries and the outcome could have been very different. In Baltimore the gangsters normally deliver on their threats.....


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## vamike (Jun 3, 2011)

Doesn't a knife count as being a weapon?  How many of us carry one or several?  I carry at least two.  One readily seen.  One not. Probably a neck knife which is readily available and not very evident.


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## crazycajun (Jun 3, 2011)

CANMAN13 said:


> Crazycajun, while I don't doubt that there are some hardened areas in South Carolina the incident you described leaves me to question A: how long you have been in EMS and B: how to you "arrive" on the scene of a shooting prior to P.D. arrival and decide to enter the scene?? Those kind of actions can and will get you killed one day and for someone who appears to be very educated about firearms, laws, etc I question why you even put yourself in said situation.
> 
> The described call could have gone very different if the so called "gangsters" decided they didn't like your answer of "we can't do anything for him" and pulled out their gun and shot you, without the protection of LE on scene. Sometimes no amount of smooth talking will get you out of a bad situation. All it takes is to get into a situation one time, with someone who has a short fuse, no brains, or no worries and the outcome could have been very different. In Baltimore the gangsters normally deliver on their threats.....



I have been in EMS since the 80's. I started in Downtown New Orleans La. I have been in more situations than you can imagine. We rolled up on scene as we have done many times in the past with no LE. Not a big deal as the gangsters know we are their only life line and the druggies know we are their only fix. The gangs here are Bloods and Crips. They have been here long before I arrived. I have also worked the same district for close to three years. My partner and I make a point to walk the neighborhoods when we get a chance. We stop and speak to just about anyone you could imagine and most people know us by first name. Even though we do not live in our district we make it a point to shop and eat there every chance we get. We work all of the street festivals we can and attend every school function we can. We often get requested by inmates at the local jails if they need transport to the hospital because they know they can trust us. We are also requested by many LEOS because they know how well we are liked in the area. I learned a long time ago from a very wise man. (My Father) Treat everyone as you would want to be treated. You also mention that my actions will get me killed one day and you may be correct. However, I could get killed walking to my mailbox. I strongly believe when it is your time it is just that. Your Time. That decision has been made and I cannot alter it so I will give all that I can to this job. I will help everyone I can and I will respect everyone I come across no matter their situation. I will hold someones hand or give them a shoulder to cry on if needed. I will listen to someone vent and I will laugh at someones corny joke. This job is not just about medicine it is about RESPECT. It is about CARING. And it is about UNDERSTANDING. Many people either forget this or never learn it. Many never take the time to meet the very people they are there to help. Many look down on those in hard times or those that have chosen the wrong path in life. I look at those same people and know that I am truly blessed to be able to help them.


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## freebyrd (Jun 3, 2011)

crazycajun said:


> Not sure where the video's are located but that is something I never heard about. I know people that went to shelters were not allowed to have firearms and some resisted. However I felt that was in the best interest of everyone as there were many children in shelters that were wide open areas with no way to secure a weapon. In fact, homeowners in New Orleans were encouraged to arm themselves to protect their property and themselves.



here you go
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1Qx0cTze0M


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## crazycajun (Jun 3, 2011)

freebyrd said:


> here you go
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1Qx0cTze0M



I remember that story on the news. A big part of the story was left out. What you didn't see was the woman threatening to shoot the officers if they did not leave. It was a mandatory evacuation until water services could be restored. Once restored residents were allowed to return home in most areas. No firearms were allowed at shelters which made sense. Another thing not shown is the woman had a long history of Mental Illness. Not trying to prove you wrong but that is the only story I can think of and even called a friend that works with Orleans Parish and he couldn't remember any others either.


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## bigbaldguy (Jun 3, 2011)

crazycajun said:


> I remember that story on the news. A big part of the story was left out. What you didn't see was the woman threatening to shoot the officers if they did not leave. It was a mandatory evacuation until water services could be restored. Once restored residents were allowed to return home in most areas. No firearms were allowed at shelters which made sense. Another thing not shown is the woman had a long history of Mental Illness. Not trying to prove you wrong but that is the only story I can think of and even called a friend that works with Orleans Parish and he couldn't remember any others either.



Yeah I remember that on the news. The woman didn't want to leave and the officers were under orders to move her. I don't remember the mental illness part. It was a bad situation all around. Katrina was a disaster in more ways than one.


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## crazycajun (Jun 3, 2011)

bigbaldguy said:


> Yeah I remember that on the news. The woman didn't want to leave and the officers were under orders to move her. I don't remember the mental illness part. It was a bad situation all around. Katrina was a disaster in more ways than one.



Mental Illness came out a few days later. You are correct. Katrina sucked the life out of many.


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## Aerin-Sol (Jun 4, 2011)

mycrofft said:


> Her's a poll we had about our participants and firearms, along with three pages of commentary:
> http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=14014
> 
> I notice extremely few females in the conversation.




I'll be the token female and state that I have no desire to have a gun on duty. I would not use it, I would not want to explain to patients why I was carrying around a deadly weapon, I would not want it in my house, and I would not want the responsibility.

I really hope this is not going to turn into "but you are a woman so you are tiny, weak, and helpless, and the world is full of big scary men who will call 911 and then overpower you and tear your clothes off and rape you 17 times and you'll get emotional and cry a lot and regret not listening to my manly wisdom, so why don't you want a gun? are you a commie feminazi?" because that's how most "I want a female's opinion on guns!" posts seem to go.




crazycajun said:


> I have been in EMS since the 80's. I started in Downtown New Orleans La.
> ...
> I look at those same people and know that I am truly blessed to be able to help them.



You are an awesome person, even if you sound like you're on the 700 club.


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## bigbaldguy (Jun 4, 2011)

Aerin-Sol said:


> I'll be the token female and state that I have no desire to have a gun on duty. I would not use it, I would not want to explain to patients why I was carrying around a deadly weapon, I would not want it in my house, and I would not want the responsibility.
> 
> I really hope this is not going to turn into "but you are a woman so you are tiny, weak, and helpless, and the world is full of big scary men who will call 911 and then overpower you and tear your clothes off and rape you 17 times and you'll get emotional and cry a lot and regret not listening to my manly wisdom, so why don't you want a gun? are you a commie feminazi?" because that's how most "I want a female's opinion on guns!" posts seem to go.
> 
> ...



You don't need a gun you have those 6 pack abs to dazzle em with  like kryptonite to superman.


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## rmabrey (Jun 4, 2011)

Most people do not have the mindset to carry a gun. It is a huge responsibility and should not be taken lightly. I spend more time training every year than most LEO's do. 

So the question is, how many people are willing to do that?

Not to mention what do you do during an out of state LDT? I live in Indiana (literally 20-30 minute drive to Illinois or Kentucky) and Illinois doesnt recognize anyone's license. There would have to be a national recognized license like LEO's have to allow it, else you would have to disarm before entering. The less you handle a gun the safer it is, especially in front of a patient. 

Then there is the insurance your provider would have to carry......

The list of reasons go on and on. Best to just remember scene safety and awareness


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## bigbaldguy (Jun 4, 2011)

Just do what I do. I spray paint a banana black and if someone tries to mess with me I pull it out and point it at them like a gun. Then while they are laughing themselfs sick I run like hell.


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## rmabrey (Jun 4, 2011)

bigbaldguy said:


> Just do what I do. I spray paint a banana black and if someone tries to mess with me I pull it out and point it at them like a gun. Then while they are laughing themselfs sick I run like hell.









:huh:


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## the_negro_puppy (Jun 4, 2011)

I dont want to have to shoot someone then treat a gunshot wound. Defeat the purpose kinda


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## CANMAN (Jun 4, 2011)

crazycajun said:


> I have been in EMS since the 80's. I started in Downtown New Orleans La. I have been in more situations than you can imagine. We rolled up on scene as we have done many times in the past with no LE. Not a big deal as the gangsters know we are their only life line and the druggies know we are their only fix. The gangs here are Bloods and Crips. They have been here long before I arrived. I have also worked the same district for close to three years. My partner and I make a point to walk the neighborhoods when we get a chance. We stop and speak to just about anyone you could imagine and most people know us by first name. Even though we do not live in our district we make it a point to shop and eat there every chance we get. We work all of the street festivals we can and attend every school function we can. We often get requested by inmates at the local jails if they need transport to the hospital because they know they can trust us. We are also requested by many LEOS because they know how well we are liked in the area. I learned a long time ago from a very wise man. (My Father) Treat everyone as you would want to be treated. You also mention that my actions will get me killed one day and you may be correct. However, I could get killed walking to my mailbox. I strongly believe when it is your time it is just that. Your Time. That decision has been made and I cannot alter it so I will give all that I can to this job. I will help everyone I can and I will respect everyone I come across no matter their situation. I will hold someones hand or give them a shoulder to cry on if needed. I will listen to someone vent and I will laugh at someones corny joke. This job is not just about medicine it is about RESPECT. It is about CARING. And it is about UNDERSTANDING. Many people either forget this or never learn it. Many never take the time to meet the very people they are there to help. Many look down on those in hard times or those that have chosen the wrong path in life. I look at those same people and know that I am truly blessed to be able to help them.



Well I applaude your reply and your people skills. I myself treat everyone with respect but have never had the desire what so ever to go out in my area such as your described. I can see how being that outgoing has led to benefit in your career.


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## crazycajun (Jun 4, 2011)

CANMAN13 said:


> Well I applaude your reply and your people skills. I myself treat everyone with respect but have never had the desire what so ever to go out in my area such as your described. I can see how being that outgoing has led to benefit in your career.



Try and take some time and visit a little. I always try and go the extra mile. I keep a variety of stuffed animals and hot wheels at all times for kids I come across. We keep cold bottled water, fresh fruit and county giveaways (stickers, magnets and such) in stock. If I am riding down the street and see someone walking or working in the yard and they look like they are getting overheated I stop and give them a water, talk to them a bit to see how they are doing. We give homeless people fruit and water and the toys are for kids that we transport or that are upset because it is a relative that needs us and they are just scared. The county foots the bill for the supplies without question because of the good it does closing the gap in the community. However, if they didn't pay for the stuff, my partner and I would gladly pick up the tab. As I said just give it a try. You will be amazed at some of the stories you hear and the amount of medical information you get. You never know when the people you talk to will need you but it makes it a better experience if they know you.


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## usafmedic45 (Jun 5, 2011)

> Katrina sucked the life out of many



At least 1,836 of them.  It was a disaster all the way around with everyone involved having room to share the blame from FEMA to the victims themselves.  There's a reason why the phrase "mandatory evacuation" was used.  Outside of the few who literally could not evacuate to higher ground, most of those people signed their own death warrants by staying whether out of hubris, greed or just good ol' fashioned stupidity.



> I dont want to have to shoot someone then treat a gunshot wound. Defeat the purpose kinda



Mozambique drill them then.  Make sure they are non-viable and you don't have to do anything of the sort.


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## RunnerD1987 (Jun 6, 2011)

One of the cities in the state I live in mandates the paramedic wear a bullet proof vest. However can not see a paramedic carrying a weapon. I see it has job in EMS is treating the patient. If deadly force is warranted that judgement should be left to law enforcement. Instead implment procedures that are effective in regards to hostile patients.


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## firetender (Jun 6, 2011)

*There's something about guns...*

The way I see it, once you carry a gun you impose a different filter on your consciousness. 

You have it on you. It is there for your defense. It is there for you to use not "if" you need it, but "when".  Doesn't even carrying one indicate that that is what you believe? If you really didn't think you'd ever need to use it, you simply would NOT carry one would you? 

And that is the mind set that you go to work with. You're looking for the need on every call as PART of your scene assessment. Why? Because you're packing because you believe that ANY scene (any PATIENT!) could prompt you to use it.

Every situation now includes you having to run your experience through this filter. Not only about when or how you use it but also "Can the other guy get at it?" If that is NOT part of your awareness, then you shouldn't be packing.

A gun is designed to be a lethal weapon. This ADDS TO the amount of the consciousness that it occupies in the event you do find yourself in a  situation with even POTENTIAL to be dangerous. Even the choice to defend yourself now includes "Do I take this life?" 

That's a lot of added thinking you have to carry. 

Now to active soldiers and cops, enough experience is available to draw on so that having one on you is no big deal. You really DO know your limits and boundaries, largely because they've been tested. 

What I'd like you to ask yourself (those medics with little exposure to actually USING FIREARMS ON OTHER HUMAN BEINGS) is this: Could knowing you have a gun on your person mean that you might miss alternatives for peaceful resolution? After all, you're holding an "Ace" up your sleeve, and that's spelled P-O-W-E-R!

Carrying a gun does not simplify your life. For all but the most mature medics just its presence changes how they view themselves in relationship to every scene they encounter. 

I offer all this fully recognizing that there are some call areas that, were I a medic in one, I WOULDN'T HESITATE TO give myself permission to add that complication to my life. 

What irks me in threads of this nature is any indication of being casual about the subject.


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## DrParasite (Jun 6, 2011)

WCSU1987 said:


> One of the cities in the state I live in mandates the paramedic wear a bullet proof vest. However can not see a paramedic carrying a weapon. I see it has job in EMS is treating the patient. If deadly force is warranted that judgement should be left to law enforcement. Instead implment procedures that are effective in regards to hostile patients.


a bulletproof vest or a stab vest is a defensive item; its there in case you accidentally get shot or stabbed.  if someone wants you dead enough, they are going to do their best to shoot you in the head, or shoot you once in the chest, and while you are recoiling the smashed in the chest with a sledge hammer have a follow up shot in the head.

a vest also DOESN'T add to the intimidating factor.  if someone is going to try to hurt you, whether or not you have a vest on or not probably isn't going to be a factor in if you get attacked or not.

btw, the next city over from where I work issues vests to all employees, and mandates their use 24/7.  we work in the 2nd most dangerous city, as well as the 23rd most dangerous city, while they   (the agency that mandates vests) are the 71st most dangerous city in the US.

I'm gonna stand by my earlier statement.  I don't carry a gun, and I don't think EMS should carry guns, either concealed or openly carried.  

however, if I was a CCW nut, who always carried a gun on my wherever I went, and I worked EMS in a dangerous city, than ABSOLUTELY I would carry (concealed) when on the ambulance.  if I feel the need to have a gun with me just in case when I go to the super market, than I would still feel the need to have one when I went into a crack house with no PD or went on a penetrating trauma call.  but that's just me


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## emt seeking first job (Jun 7, 2011)

*I disagree with this thought.*



the_negro_puppy said:


> I dont want to have to shoot someone then treat a gunshot wound. Defeat the purpose kinda



Your purpose is to control the scene.

The professional responder (be it security, peace or police officer) shoots to stop a threat. There is no intent to inflict injury or cause death. Once the threat is stopped, treatment begins.

http://www.greenburghny.com/cit-e-access/webpage.cfm?TID=10&TPID=2853

Very simple. A needs to be stopped. The person is stopped first, then treated. It can be by two people, a police officer and then an emt, or by the same person.

Regardless, if a cop shot someone, and they were no longer a threat, in cuffs, the cop would treat them or facilitate another person to do it.

Just as a military medic treats wounded enemies who are in custody.

Public safety controls the scene. he person gets taken to a hospital or court or both.

With agencies being held accountable for budgets these days, there is the option of blending roles.

MTA Bridge and Tunnel Officers and Port Authority Police in NYS fight fires.


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## emt seeking first job (Jun 7, 2011)

firetender said:


> The way I see it, once you carry a gun you impose a different filter on your consciousness.
> 
> You have it on you. It is there for your defense. It is there for you to use not "if" you need it, but "when".  Doesn't even carrying one indicate that that is what you believe? If you really didn't think you'd ever need to use it, you simply would NOT carry one would you?
> 
> ...





This is not a casual subject.

Much of security and law enforcement is command presence.

I beleive that if EMS were armed and given LEO status, it would be a great deterent. Most of the people local LEO deals with are not that bright and tend to give up or not act out if faced with command presence.


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## crazycajun (Jun 7, 2011)

emt seeking first job said:


> This is not a casual subject.
> 
> Much of security and law enforcement is command presence.
> 
> I beleive that if EMS were armed and given LEO status, it would be a great deterent. Most of the people local LEO deals with are not that bright and tend to give up or not act out if faced with command presence.



First off, Security has no command presence in the U.S. as they have no real authority and have no legal right to hold anyone against their will. Second if you want to be a cop be a cop. EMS does not need to have a command presence. We are here to help others not threaten them. People already feel threatened by police as it is, now you want to add EMS to that mix. The whole point is to have others trust our profession. they need to know that their medical history is safe from others prying eyes and they need to know they can tell us if they are using illegal drugs so we can treat them accordingly.They do not want to worry if they will get arrested because they smoked a little pot or done some coke or anything else for that matter and it is now affecting their health. If you want to do away with EMS then go ahead with your ideas. It will kill the chances of EMS ever advancing further into healthcare and away from your "EMS is a Public Safety entity" crap.


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## freebyrd (Jun 7, 2011)

crazycajun said:


> Try and take some time and visit a little. I always try and go the extra mile. I keep a variety of stuffed animals and hot wheels at all times for kids I come across. We keep cold bottled water, fresh fruit and county giveaways (stickers, magnets and such) in stock. If I am riding down the street and see someone walking or working in the yard and they look like they are getting overheated I stop and give them a water, talk to them a bit to see how they are doing. We give homeless people fruit and water and the toys are for kids that we transport or that are upset because it is a relative that needs us and they are just scared. The county foots the bill for the supplies without question because of the good it does closing the gap in the community. However, if they didn't pay for the stuff, my partner and I would gladly pick up the tab. As I said just give it a try. You will be amazed at some of the stories you hear and the amount of medical information you get. You never know when the people you talk to will need you but it makes it a better experience if they know you.



wow my county is broke as hell, guess i know where all our money went 

seriously you sound like a good humanitarian . kudos to you sir


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## emt seeking first job (Jun 7, 2011)

crazycajun said:


> First off, Security has no command presence in the U.S. as they have no real authority and have no legal right to hold anyone against their will. Second if you want to be a cop be a cop. EMS does not need to have a command presence. We are here to help others not threaten them. People already feel threatened by police as it is, now you want to add EMS to that mix. The whole point is to have others trust our profession. they need to know that their medical history is safe from others prying eyes and they need to know they can tell us if they are using illegal drugs so we can treat them accordingly.They do not want to worry if they will get arrested because they smoked a little pot or done some coke or anything else for that matter and it is now affecting their health. If you want to do away with EMS then go ahead with your ideas. It will kill the chances of EMS ever advancing further into healthcare and away from your "EMS is a Public Safety entity" crap.



Command presence controls the scene. It is not there to threaten anyone. Security or Lae Enforcement does not threaten anyone. They ensure the publics voluntary co-operation with a minimal amount of intervention.

Security has no more power than an ordinary citizen, however, it has its role. There are :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: cops and good security guards. 

Look up Joseph Trombino. Look up Robert Hansen. Brinks versus the FBI...who was more honorable ?

Nobody should get arrested for having or using any drugs. All drugs should be legally available and taxed, in part to pay for public services, like education, health and safety.

The Police/EMS hybrid works well in Town of Greenburgh, NY.

EMS should be part of a first respeonse. 

Anyone who wants to "advance in health-care" can go to school to get a good job at a hospital or doctors office.


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## emt seeking first job (Jun 7, 2011)

*short answer*



crazycajun said:


> First off, Security has no command presence in the U.S. as they have no real authority and have no legal right to hold anyone against their will.



Go to a Nuclear Reactor anywhere in the US. Then report back about the command presence.

Security can arrest people. A citizen's arrest conducted in a professional manner with standards.

If security someplace does not arrest someone, it is because there employer has a protocol not to.

http://www.google.com/search?source...gc.r_pw.&fp=71c6c4af87148765&biw=1003&bih=496


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## TransportJockey (Jun 7, 2011)

emt seeking first job said:


> Go to a Nuclear Reactor anywhere in the US. Then report back about the command presence.
> 
> Security can arrest people. A citizen's arrest conducted in a professional manner with standards.
> 
> ...



For the most part, nuke reactors have DOE Police guarding them. They are fully sworn FLEOs.


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## abckidsmom (Jun 7, 2011)

TransportJockey said:


> For the most part, nuke reactors have DOE Police guarding them. They are fully sworn FLEOs.



Not the three nuclear reactors I'm familiar with.  They are security in the standard sense, but they carry automatic weapons.  I've never even heard of DOE Police.  Which reactors are guarded by them?


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## TransportJockey (Jun 7, 2011)

MY apologies. After looking it up some more, I realized that what the DOE cop was talking to me about was nuclear waste and weapons transport to and from facilities primarily. They have a training center and comm post here in ABQ. A couple years ago he was telling me that they were switching private contractors over to sworn LEOs... guess it's still contractors.


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## crazycajun (Jun 7, 2011)

emt seeking first job said:


> Command presence controls the scene. It is not there to threaten anyone. Security or Lae Enforcement does not threaten anyone. They ensure the publics voluntary co-operation with a minimal amount of intervention.
> 
> Security has no more power than an ordinary citizen, however, it has its role. There are :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: cops and good security guards.
> 
> ...



Where to start?

You are correct that security does not threaten anyone. They have no legal right to detain or put their hands on anyone.

Law enforcement DOES threaten many in the general public. People in some areas feel LEO's are against them even though they have not committed any crime. This has been brought on by the attitude many LEO's have.

Security has no power and has NO role in the U.S.. Enforcing laws should be left up to Law Enforcement. Not EMS and certainly not Security.

"All drugs should be legal". Are you a complete moron? More crack and meth readily available. Yep that is exactly what we need.

Good for Greenburgh NY. In many other places the program failed.

EMS should be a part of healthcare involved not only in pre-hospital care, but intervention and prevention, public education and general public care that does not warrant transport in addition to our SOP.

I make more than many RN's here. I have more fun and get to see many things an RN doesn't.

If you want to be in public service so much, PLEASE do us all a favor and cut up your NREMT cards, close your account here and move on.


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## crazycajun (Jun 7, 2011)

abckidsmom said:


> Not the three nuclear reactors I'm familiar with.  They are security in the standard sense, but they carry automatic weapons.  I've never even heard of DOE Police.  Which reactors are guarded by them?



The three facilities I am familiar with have "Security". However, those "Security" officers are all current military reserve personnel and that is a requirement by the facility.


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## crazycajun (Jun 7, 2011)

emt seeking first job said:


> Go to a Nuclear Reactor anywhere in the US. Then report back about the command presence.
> 
> Security can arrest people. A citizen's arrest conducted in a professional manner with standards.
> 
> ...



Security has NO LEGAL AUTHORITY to arrest anyone just as you as a private citizen do not. Citizen's arrest has been thrown out of courts for years and many have been charged with kidnapping the suspected criminal. Again, leave enforcing the laws up to LAW ENFORCEMENT.


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## usalsfyre (Jun 7, 2011)

emt seeking first job said:


> Anyone who wants to "advance in health-care" can go to school to get a good job at a hospital or doctors office.


Anyone who wants to be in public safety can keep a clean background, stay in shape and get hired as an LEO or firefighter. EMTs who want to be in "public safety" are just shifty people who can't cut it as a cop.

See, logical fallacies work both ways!


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## crazycajun (Jun 7, 2011)

usalsfyre said:


> Anyone who wants to be in public safety can keep a clean background, stay in shape and get hired as an LEO or firefighter. EMTs who want to be in "public safety" are just shifty people who can't cut it as a cop.
> 
> See, logical fallacies work both ways!



The best statement I have read so for. Excellent Post!!!!!


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## freebyrd (Jun 7, 2011)

crazycajun said:


> Where to start?
> 
> You are correct that security does not threaten anyone. They have no legal right to detain or put their hands on anyone.
> 
> ...



i actually have to agree with the legalization argument, what does keeping it illegal do?
it certainly doesn't make it unavailable,
our streets especially inner city are flooded with drugs,
and the only people making any profit off of it is the drug lords and the police,

drug laws and asset forfeiture laws mandatory minimum sentencing etc.. have done more to erode the freedoms of the common man than nearly anything else i can think of.
except for maybe the rivers of anti terrorism laws following september 11th,
anyway

legalize and let darwin weed out the people who aren't much use to society anyway
 although it will never happen
when you think about it all of the free love free expression and free drug users from the sixties are the people running the show now, and not much has changed.
the system has not been altered to any great extent.
we have seen some common sense laws regarding marijuana possession and use.
but thats about it.
ah well opinions are like a@#holes...yes?


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## JPINFV (Jun 7, 2011)

freebyrd said:


> ah well opinions are like a@#holes...yes?


Everybody has one and it's rather painful when they don't work?


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## MasterIntubator (Jun 7, 2011)

Some places can't intubate well... and they wanna carry guns?  Eh...  
The only benefit is the combination systems.  Im part of a combination system that all of our personnel are cross trained fire and EMS.  Some have their specialties and are better than others, as they are assigned positions appropriately.  Many moons ago, we had tac medics that would carry, but only during events and special cases. Now that is completely handled on the LEO side, we have enough problems keeping up with CEUs, fire and EMS training to worry about qualifiying each month.  Many of our folks are LEOs as well, but do not carry while performing fire rescue. The fire marshals and investigators in our system do carry all the time.
When year 2000 came around, most of us carried and had body armor... mainly for the crazy folks with 2 digit systems.  I doubt 2012 will have the same effect on us.

Soooooo... to the original question..  no, I don't think the average EMS person should not be carrying, no reason for it.  Take a good self defense course and use it to get out of a situation, and protect yourself with common sense.  The employer should be very clear on the subject from that point on.


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