# Why do medics with the FD make more?



## Tk11 (Apr 4, 2015)

Like 90% their calls are medical. Im not knocking their jobs, I plan to work as a FF/medic one day myself.. But I know medics with ambulance conpaines get paid less and they do the same job the majority of the time. I ran 12 hours with the FD yesterday as a student for my emt clinicals and all the calls we went on were medical.


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## PotatoMedic (Apr 4, 2015)

What is wrong with medical?  Trauma is easy.


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## cprted (Apr 4, 2015)

Because the union that represents firefighters are able to negotiate very good contracts for their members.


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## Handsome Robb (Apr 4, 2015)

The majority of single-roll ems providers work for for-profit companies. The more they pay their employees the less profit after expenses there is. Generally EMS providers who work for government run EMS services make near if not as much as their fire counterparts do. In some systems, such as San Antonio Fire or Medic1 in Seattle,  it's a promotion and a pay raise.

Also FF/medics are required to be certified and competent in two rolls rather than one.

Like cprted stated the unions for FFs help out a lot as well.


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## Carlos Danger (Apr 4, 2015)

Tk11 said:


> Like 90% their calls are medical. Im not knocking their jobs, I plan to work as a FF/medic one day myself.. *But I know medics with ambulance conpaines get paid less and they do the same job the majority of the time.* I ran 12 hours with the FD yesterday as a student for my emt clinicals and all the calls we went on were medical.



Because a vast majority of non-fire paramedics work for private companies, a better question is, "why do paramedics employed by the government get compensated better than paramedics who work for private corporations"?

And the answer is simple.......a private corporation has to actually balance expenditures vs. revenue, whereas government entities do not. When a private company makes bad economic decisions - like overpaying employees - they go under. When a government agency makes bad economic decisions, they simply pass the debt on to the next administration, often without ever even fixing the problem.

Witness the horrendous economic condition of the state of California (and a few other states) and many cities within, not to mention the federal government.


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## BEN52 (Apr 4, 2015)

I have worked as a paramedic for private services and currently work as a dual role firefighter / paramedic in a municipal department.

Firefighter / Paramedics who make good salaries with nice benefits generally work in "labor" (non right to work) states. The unions (predominantly the IAFF) have fought for decades to get these wages and benefits. Love em or hate em there is much to be gained through organization and solidarity for the long haul.


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## Carlos Danger (Apr 4, 2015)

The existence of unions doesn't adequately explain the difference in compensation between public and private. 

If hiring a union to represent you was all it took to get the kind of pay and benefits  that municipal employees often have, then every private agency would be unionized, and would have essentially the same compensation as the public employees.

That doesn't happen though, because a union is nothing more than a business, and they know they can't can't get blood from a stone. The unions know that the private employers don't have an endless well of taxpayer-guaranteed debt from which to fund every demand, so it's difficult to even get  a union to represent you if you work for a private service.


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## BEN52 (Apr 4, 2015)

Remi said:


> The existence of unions doesn't adequately explain the difference in compensation between public and private.
> 
> If hiring a union to represent you was all it took to get the kind of pay and benefits  that municipal employees often have, then every private agency would be unionized, and would have essentially the same compensation as the public employees.
> 
> That doesn't happen though, because a union is nothing more than a business, and they know they can't can't get blood from a stone. The unions know that the private employers don't have an endless well of taxpayer-guaranteed debt from which to fund every demand, so it's difficult to even get  a union to represent you if you work for a private service.



The poster asked a valid question. Please don't reply if you clearly don't know what you speak of. 

Taxpayer guranteed debt? My agency is funded through the collection of taxes as well as ems billing. We as is the case with most fire departments don't operate on any type of bonded debt nor do we generate debt. The bonded debt that some departments use for capital expenditures are no different than a private service utilizing a credit line or bank loan.

Your quick dismissal of the IAFF and their role in our good pay couldn't be further from the truth. The IAFF was started in 1918 by firefighters to improve their situation. No preexisting body saw the firefighters as a good business decision and took them on. The progress has been made over nearly 100 years. The strenght of the IAFF comes through numbers and in turn money. EMS could do this but it requires commitment, money, and time. The wheels of progress are slow turning. 

If you want proof that unions are the reason firefighters make good money, compare ff salaries in the north to those in the right to work south. Your looking at low 70s vs high 30s and low 40s.


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## Carlos Danger (Apr 4, 2015)

BEN52 said:


> The poster asked a valid question. Please don't reply if you clearly don't know what you speak of.


My information comes from studying economics. Yours seems to come solely from union propaganda.



BEN52 said:


> The
> Taxpayer guranteed debt? My agency is funded through the collection of taxes as well as ems billing. We as is the case with most fire departments don't operate on any type of bonded debt nor do we generate debt. The bonded debt that some departments use for capital expenditures are no different than a private service utilizing a credit line or bank loan.


These statements indicate a fundamental lack of understanding of basic economic principles. 



BEN52 said:


> The
> Your quick dismissal of the IAFF and their role in our good pay couldn't be further from the truth. The IAFF was started in 1918 by firefighters to improve their situation. No preexisting body saw the firefighters as a good business decision and took them on. The progress has been made over nearly 100 years. The strenght of the IAFF comes through numbers and in turn money. EMS could do this but it requires commitment, money, and time. The wheels of progress are slow turning.


This is sheer union propaganda that has nothing to do with what the OP asked.



BEN52 said:


> The
> If you want proof that unions are the reason firefighters make good money, compare ff salaries in the north to those in the right to work south. Your looking at low 70s vs high 30s and low 40s.


You think think that constitutes "proof"? There are many other differences between northern and southern governmental economics. 

None of your regurgitated union kool-aid explains why private services don't have the same type of union representation that municipal services do.


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## BEN52 (Apr 4, 2015)

Prove me wrong. Show me the specific economic principles that my job is funded by taxpayer guaranteed debt.


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## Shishkabob (Apr 4, 2015)

Handsome Robb said:


> Also FF/medics are required to be certified and competent in two rolls rather than one.


Let's not confuse required work for competency.  Before someone gets angry, I'm not saying they are incompetent, but that's not why they are paid what they are.  (Plus, there are FFs who have been grandfathered in, who don't have EMT OR Paramedic certs, yet get paid the same due to the union).  


Their salaries are what they are through one thing and one thing only: They and their unions have convinced the public that they should get paid it.  Worth it or not is not part of the equation.


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## Tigger (Apr 4, 2015)

BEN52 said:


> The poster asked a valid question. Please don't reply if you clearly don't know what you speak of.
> 
> Taxpayer guranteed debt? My agency is funded through the collection of taxes as well as ems billing. We as is the case with most fire departments don't operate on any type of bonded debt nor do we generate debt. The bonded debt that some departments use for capital expenditures are no different than a private service utilizing a credit line or bank loan.



Wut? Collection of taxes=taxpayer guaranteed debt. The fire department doesn't make anything close a profit and is operated at a loss by a municipality. This loss is guaranteed by taxation.


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## BEN52 (Apr 4, 2015)

Tigger said:


> Wut? Collection of taxes=taxpayer guaranteed debt. The fire department doesn't make anything close a profit and is operated at a loss by a municipality. This loss is guaranteed by taxation.



Payment for service does not equate to debt. 

The responses to my post elude to why private providers make less money. Failure to adequately assess your value and fight to get paid accordingly.


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## Tigger (Apr 4, 2015)

I don't begrudge those that make more money than me that do the same job. They fought for it and it was given to them. That doesn't mean it's what they should be paid though.


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## BEN52 (Apr 4, 2015)

Tigger said:


> Wut? Collection of taxes=taxpayer guaranteed debt. The fire department doesn't make anything close a profit and is operated at a loss by a municipality. This loss is guaranteed by taxation.



You are mixing debt and cost of operation. Taxes are payment for service. We do not operate at a loss or profit. We operate at a cost based upon providing the level of service desired by the residents and business community. 

One of the biggest problems facing single role EMS providers is their continued failure to organize as a profession and as an organized labor force. I wish they would as single role has it's place and my single role compadres deserve the pay and benefits that I enjoy as a union firefighter. 

There seems to be a reoccurring theme of acrimony towards the IAFF on this board. I get many of the points but the pros far outweigh the cons IMO.


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## Tigger (Apr 4, 2015)

It absolutely operates at a loss. The fire department provides a service and does not recoup any money from it. It's expected, but still a loss. There isn't anything inherently wrong with that either. It would be great if government in this country could understand that EMS probably can't be operated for profit either, yet many try to.


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## BEN52 (Apr 4, 2015)

Tigger, I guess I can agree to disagree with you. I can see your logic I suppose but have a different view of things.

I agree with you that EMS cannot be provided at a high level of care with adequate coverage and appropriately compensated employees at a profit.


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## Carlos Danger (Apr 5, 2015)

BEN52 said:


> Prove me wrong. Show me the specific economic principles that my job is funded by taxpayer guaranteed debt.



Very simple: your department spends far more on it brings in, and taxpayers cover the large gap. 

Which is fine; that's how government services always work. But don't pretend that what you do is paid for by something that you produce. 



BEN52 said:


> The responses to my post elude to why private providers make less money. Failure to adequately assess your value and fight to get paid accordingly.



Don't kid yourself - your value is not higher than what the private market is willing to pay you. In fact that is the very definition of value. Public unions have ways of twisting and distorting that, though, precisely because they people the unions are negotiating with are making concessions with _other people's money, _so it's much easier to get them to pay for things that they a private corporation simply couldn't afford, and would have to refuse.

I already explained why private providers make less money. Privates don't have an endless well of taxpayer money to draw from like public agencies do.

I also asked before why more private agencies aren't represented by large unions, and you never answered. The reason is because the unions 1. aren't eager to represent private agency employees, because there is little money to be made (because there isn't that endless well of taxpayer dollars that I keep pointing out), and 2. when unions are brought in, they don't increase compensation much (lack of that endless well of taxpayer dollars again), so employees see it as more of a hassle than it's worth.

A union strategically and intentionally brainwashes it's members into having an overinflated sense of entitlement and worth (which isn't hard to do, since everyone wants to think they are worth more than they are getting), and then uses political pressure, poorly-informed public opinion, and lack of transparency to pressure local officials into approving compensation expenditures that are often far higher than what the market would allow for, should customers actually have to pay directly for service. And then the union itself skims off the top, like a leach. That's how public unions work. It's not good or bad (well, in some cases it's very bad); it's just how it works. Privates unions, again, are very different.


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## epipusher (Apr 5, 2015)

Bigger budgets


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## BEN52 (Apr 5, 2015)

Remi said:


> Very simple: your department spends far more on it brings in, and taxpayers cover the large gap.
> 
> Which is fine; that's how government services always work. But don't pretend that what you do is paid for by something that you produce.
> 
> ...



This is why you make less. You can thank him and all the folks just like him.


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## RocketMedic (Apr 5, 2015)

The FD/PD is the municipal version of the federal military- they exist to protect against and mitigate disaster and derive value primarily by preventing disaster.


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## SandpitMedic (Apr 5, 2015)

BEN52 said:


> This is why you make less. You can thank him and all the folks just like him.


Gee thanks, Remi....


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## terrible one (Apr 6, 2015)

BEN52 said:


> This is why you make less. You can thank him and all the folks just like him.


 
Seriously?


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## azbrewcrew (Apr 6, 2015)

Its the capes they wear. Definitely the capes.


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## Handsome Robb (Apr 6, 2015)

BEN52 said:


> This is why you make less. You can thank him and all the folks just like him.



Considering Remi probably makes more than you and I combined...

No one was hating on firefighters for making more. Someone asked a question and it was answered.

What you've displayed is why people think FFs are overpaid. You think you're worth more than you are and get all butthurt when someone tries to tell you  otherwise.

You operate at a loss, there's no ifs ands or buts about it. You spend more than you make therefore you're operating at a loss...pretty simple concept.


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## ghost02 (Apr 6, 2015)

And the key is that they can operate at a loss. Private can't.


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## hogwiley (Apr 7, 2015)

The problem is that in the US its ingrained in us to have the mentality that everything always needs to result in profit and that is just the way the world works. There are some things that should not be profit based in my mind, and EMS is one of them.

Firefighters, and for that matter EMS personnel, are like insurance. You hope you don't need them, and many people will never need them in their lifetime, but they are there for when you DO need them. FDs and their union are good at educating the public on this basic concept. The rest of EMS is a total failure at it. I think having private ambulance companies doing 911 is almost as ridiculous as having private police companies replace police departments. EMS shouldn't have to be Fire based, but I still don't think it should privatized to the extent it is.

Of course the rampant abuse of 911 and ERs is partly why EMS in the US is a joke compared to much of the world. It's hard to justify having highly trained, highly educated(and well paid) providers when most of the 911 calls you respond to are for people who just want a taxi drive to the ER, or see EMS/ERs as a source of free drugs and free meals.


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## Tigger (Apr 7, 2015)

hogwiley said:


> Of course the rampant abuse of 911 and ERs is partly why EMS in the US is a joke compared to much of the world. It's hard to justify having highly trained, highly educated(and well paid) providers when most of the 911 calls you respond to are for people who just want a taxi drive to the ER, or see EMS/ERs as a source of free drugs and free meals.


Or, more commonly, as primary care. That is the real reason why our EMS systems see more use as an expensive taxi ride to the ED, many more people use the ED as their PCP in this country compared to anywhere else in the developed world. It's not about seeking drugs or food (though of course it happens), it's just that it's how our system is sadly equipped to provide the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum with basic healthcare services.


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## chriscemt (Apr 9, 2015)

hogwiley said:


> The problem is that in the US its ingrained in us to have the mentality that everything always needs to result in profit...



No, this is true EVERYWHERE.  There isn't a person who given the option to engage in investment doesn't want a positive return.  Whether this is in your daily work, your 401k, savings account, or your home - it's all the same.  We ALL engage to increase value.  

Or... perhaps I can interest you in some investments?


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## sweetpete (Apr 10, 2015)

Getting back to the OP's original post....in my HUMBLE OPINION (as a FF/MEDIC who works for an IAFF represented FD) I believe we get paid more than the private EMS employees for a couple reasons: 1) we're dual role. Suppression and EMS. 2)Not to mention, everything that happens in between from car wrecks to HAZMAT response to "cat up a tree" calls. Private EMTs transport patients from A to B. That's really it. No PR. No fires. No danger. In addition, like it or not....I've seen ALOT more private EMTs driving with no regard for the public and dressing sloppy and showing a lack of professionalism as compared to the city/municipal fire-medics. Not all FF-medics are professionals and not all private EMTs are slobs.

I worked private prior to "winning the lottery" and getting hired on a city FD and I have COMPLETE RESPECT for 99% of the men and women who work EMS, either private or city based. We're all doing our best to provide for our patients and our employers. Do I believe that the union has helped us get better wages? You bet. But I should expect something in return for the monthly dues that me and a few hundred thousand of my brothers & sisters are paying. At the end of the day, I didn't get into this job to get rich. I got in because I wanted to do something exciting where I could make a difference in a person's life. This profession has cured my ills in spades.


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## Tigger (Apr 10, 2015)

sweetpete said:


> Getting back to the OP's original post....in my HUMBLE OPINION (as a FF/MEDIC who works for an IAFF represented FD) I believe we get paid more than the private EMS employees for a couple reasons: 1) we're dual role. Suppression and EMS. 2)Not to mention, everything that happens in between from car wrecks to HAZMAT response to "cat up a tree" calls. Private EMTs transport patients from A to B. That's really it. No PR. No fires. *No danger*. In addition, like it or not....I've seen ALOT more private EMTs driving with no regard for the public and dressing sloppy and showing a lack of professionalism as compared to the city/municipal fire-medics. Not all FF-medics are professionals and not all private EMTs are slobs.
> 
> I worked private prior to "winning the lottery" and getting hired on a city FD and I have COMPLETE RESPECT for 99% of the men and women who work EMS, either private or city based. We're all doing our best to provide for our patients and our employers. Do I believe that the union has helped us get better wages? You bet. But I should expect something in return for the monthly dues that me and a few hundred thousand of my brothers & sisters are paying. At the end of the day, I didn't get into this job to get rich. I got in because I wanted to do something exciting where I could make a difference in a person's life. This profession has cured my ills in spades.



I'll give you a chance to take back those words.

Sure, my job is not as dangerous as interior firefighting, but to say there is no danger is an absolute slap in the face to all the EMS professionals out there who put themselves at risk on a daily basis, just as you do.


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## Handsome Robb (Apr 10, 2015)

Cops have vests and weapons, FFs have turnouts and SCBAs, EMS...well we have a radio and verbal deescalation skills and that's about it.

I agree that firefighting is dangerous but you must've worked in a really nice town in your private EMS days because EMS providers are attacked and hurt every day not to mention those who die in MVAs, some of which are their fault and others that are not.

I'm with Tigger, pretty disrespectful to go on and on about your "winning the lottery" and following it with statements that our jobs aren't as important because they're not "as dangerous" as yours.

Also, you're painting with a very broad brush. I work for a private under a public utility model and we have plenty of PR events.

I've also seen many FEOs drive without any regard for public safety as well. We had an engine not to long ago blast a red light without clearing it and nearly kill my partner and I, who were also going emergent, had the right of way but stopped at a green light so the "heroes" didn't t-bone is doing 45+ mph in their big red truck. 

We see fire every day forcing people into intersections against the light, tailgating drivers who aren't yielding while all they're using is visual war in signals and no audible.

What I'm trying to say is, you're brothers and sisters aren't all gods and goddesses among us lowly private service providers, so get off your high horse.


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## gotbeerz001 (Apr 10, 2015)

Tigger said:


> I'll give you a chance to take back those words.
> 
> Sure, my job is not as dangerous as interior firefighting, but to say there is no danger is an absolute slap in the face to all the EMS professionals out there who put themselves at risk on a daily basis, just as you do.


While danger is an element of EMS, the EMS job description does not include mitigating immediate threats; both FD and PD have those responsibilities. 

If EMS chooses to remain in a volatile environment, that is your choice based on your own comfort level; whether misguided or not. However, if you get injured and had an opportunity to leave the scene but did not take it, your employer will likely pin you down as to why you stayed BECAUSE IT IS NOT IN YOUR JOB DESCRIPTION. Transporting agencies will typically have your back for pulling out because, as you said, you have not been provided the appropriate gear.


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## Tigger (Apr 10, 2015)

gotshirtz001 said:


> While danger is an element of EMS, the EMS job description does not include mitigating immediate threats; both FD and PD have those responsibilities.
> 
> If the situation gets dodgy, EMS leaves.


Which is not equivalent to no danger, as originally stated.

The fire service loves to marginalize EMS, this is just another example.


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## gotbeerz001 (Apr 10, 2015)

As a private transporting medic in Oakland, CA, and an IAFF represented firefighter, I am speaking from an informed perspective. I'm not saying transporting medics are without risk, but don't overreach... 

"PD on scene, scene secure" is generally the words that EMS waits for.


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## Shishkabob (Apr 10, 2015)

sweetpete said:


> No danger.


That's cute.  

Completly false, but cute.


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## LACoGurneyjockey (Apr 10, 2015)

gotshirtz001 said:


> "PD on scene, scene secure" is generally the words that EMS waits for.



And so does every FD I've ever run with... So, what's your point?


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## Handsome Robb (Apr 10, 2015)

LACoGurneyjockey said:


> And so does every FD I've ever run with... So, what's your point?



You're forgetting their turnouts are bulletproof. 

If I remember correctly an EMS Provider recently left a scene he felt uncomfortable in and was nailed to the wall for it. So now if we leave we're wrong but if we stay we're wrong. 

There are also instances where leaving isn't an option. Is it common? No, but it does happen. 

Also, I don't know about other agencies but we are often told "per the cal-taker the scene is code 4" when PD is not on scene, we can stills stage if we choose but it's not uncommon for us to ask if PD is on scene then be told no and if we elect to stage we're told "per the call taker xx year old male/female, not violent, no weapons." While they're not directly telling us not to stage they're indirectly asking us to enter, on more than one occasion I've gone on scene in these instances into a scene that I was not comfortable with. I've also tried to leave and had family become extremely agitated by the fact we're leaving. 

Recently we had a call where the crew went on scene and the RP was extremely agitated by the way the hospital had treated his wife and then discharged her when he felt it was in appreciate and he was actually escorted from the premises by hospital security. He promptly returned home and called 911 and was very polite so the crew was told it was code 4 to enter. When they arrived on scene they arrived to an angry RP with an AR15 next to him. They then left and were persecuted by PD and Fire for "over-reacting". Again, damned if you do damned if you don't. Come to find out the RP was a VST with severe PTSD and a record of violence towards both LE and Healthcare workers. But our job isn't dangerous at all.

Unfortunately EMS providers are assaulted more commonly than we all think. However we have developed a culture of not reporting these incidents because "it's part of the job." Why is that? 

No one is saying that our job is as dangerous as LE or Fire but to say there is no danger to EMS is incorrect and an ignorant statement.


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## LACoGurneyjockey (Apr 10, 2015)

@Handsome Robb 
http://www.callthecops.net/nfpa-fast-tracking-bullet-proof-turnout-gear-standards/

My bad, just found this one.


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## Kevinf (Apr 10, 2015)

This sounds like a debate that could last a generation to me. But the bottom line is, there are fewer fires and more firefighters than ever 

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2012/07/firefighters-dont-fight-fires.html


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## gotbeerz001 (Apr 10, 2015)

Kevinf said:


> This sounds like a debate that could last a generation to me. But the bottom line is, there are fewer fires and more firefighters than ever
> 
> http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2012/07/firefighters-dont-fight-fires.html


While I can't disagree, there are some cities that pay less and burn more than others. Some of us are drawn to these agencies.


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## Burritomedic1127 (Apr 11, 2015)

For what its worth the media also straight up strokes the FD egos all the time.

Delivered a baby a month ago and other coworker delivered one a couple days later, both successful and healthy deliveries. Yet, while out to eat last night, blasting over the tv is how local fd delivered a baby and how we should thank these heros. When reality a MD, thats Medical Doctor if you didnt know, was on scene did all the work. Yet the FFs are getting awards and new decals on their rigs for situations that happen almost daily. Im not saying this because i want a reward, tv time, or decals, im saying this because the media shouldnt be adding fuel to the high horse mentality from doing normal job duties performed by every EMS agency across the country, just because their fire based.


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## MonkeyArrow (Apr 11, 2015)

Why shouldn't they be in the media? Just because you're jealous of their air time doesn't mean good PR should not happen. I know that I would much rather hear feel good stories in the news than what the new city death toll is from last night's shootings, stabbings, drunk bar fights, etc.


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## Carlos Danger (Apr 11, 2015)

MonkeyArrow said:


> Why shouldn't they be in the media? Just because you're jealous of their air time doesn't mean good PR should not happen. I know that I would much rather hear feel good stories in the news than what the new city death toll is from last night's shootings, stabbings, drunk bar fights, etc.


So you don't mind inaccurate media reporting, as long as it's "feel good"?

Ever read "Brave New World"?


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## MonkeyArrow (Apr 11, 2015)

Remi said:


> So you don't mind inaccurate media reporting, as long as it's "feel good"?


Who said it was inaccurate? Nothing about the last posters comment said it was falsified in any way. The media just covered a fire department delivery, and doesn't do that for EMS. BTW the state of the media in the U.S. is always misleading and biased to some degree. Everyone has an agenda and a slant through which they report.


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## Carlos Danger (Apr 11, 2015)

MonkeyArrow said:


> Who said it was inaccurate? Nothing about the last posters comment said it was falsified in any way.





Burritomedic1127 said:


> *Delivered a baby a month ago and other coworker delivered one a couple days later,* both successful and healthy deliveries. Yet, while out to eat last night, blasting over the tv is how local fd delivered a baby and how we should thank these heros. *When reality a MD, thats Medical Doctor if you didnt know, was on scene did all the work*. Yet the FFs are getting awards and new decals on their rigs for situations that happen almost daily. Im not saying this because i want a reward, tv time, or decals, im saying this because the media shouldnt be adding fuel to the high horse mentality from doing normal job duties performed by every EMS agency across the country, just because their fire based.


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## Burritomedic1127 (Apr 11, 2015)

MonkeyArrow said:


> Why shouldn't they be in the media? Just because you're jealous of their air time doesn't mean good PR should not happen. I know that I would much rather hear feel good stories in the news than what the new city death toll is from last night's shootings, stabbings, drunk bar fights, etc.



Maybe you missed the part of my post saying im not looking for air time, awards, and new decals. 

A good friend of mine from medic school (a ff/paramedic) gave an epi pen to a kid having an allergic reaction. The media swarmed the department and needed to record the life savers. He told me he refused to be on tv but his department made him. He told me he was embarrassed because how many parents/teachers/school nurses/ems providers give epi pens daily. Their medical director was pissed it was aired and after viewing the report, told the whole department that it was nothing special, its their job.


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## Burritomedic1127 (Apr 11, 2015)

So wheres the good media for parents/teachers/and school nurses?


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## gotbeerz001 (Apr 11, 2015)

Both my parent were teachers; I fight their fight, too.


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## Burritomedic1127 (Apr 11, 2015)

It shouldn't be because of the uniform you wear that changes your status to hero. In all seriousness, when was the last time you saw a attaboy news report from a teacher/school nurse giving an epi pen? We all have the same job at the end of the day (in the medical sense) and thats all that should matter. Singling out one group as heros increases the disconnect, thats pretty evident, between providers. Be good at your job and remember what its about at the end of the day


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## Burritomedic1127 (Apr 11, 2015)

gotshirtz001 said:


> Both my parent were teachers; I fight their fight, too.


Agreed thats a whole new can if worms there. My girl is a school teacher and there system/unions are warped


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## Burritomedic1127 (Apr 11, 2015)

Of* their*.    Cant type on cell phone


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## Tigger (Apr 11, 2015)

MonkeyArrow said:


> Why shouldn't they be in the media? Just because you're jealous of their air time doesn't mean good PR should not happen. I know that I would much rather hear feel good stories in the news than what the new city death toll is from last night's shootings, stabbings, drunk bar fights, etc.


The fire department here has an awesome PR machine. They get the word out, and it they do it well. Except for the part where they absolutely refuse to recognize the AMR providers on a call. Cardiac arrest save press release? Zero mention of the AMR ambulance crew who was also on scene. We are referred to as the "contracted transport provider" by their PR people. Thanks, I'll go back to driving the ambulance now and bow to your bunker pants.


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## 46Young (Apr 11, 2015)

http://www.iaff1775.org/the-truth-about-firefighter-retirement-and-pensions


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## Burritomedic1127 (Apr 11, 2015)

46Young said:


> http://www.iaff1775.org/the-truth-about-firefighter-retirement-and-pensions



Thank god EMTs/Medics dont have to work holidays...oh wait


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## triemal04 (Apr 11, 2015)

Tigger said:


> The fire department here has an awesome PR machine. They get the word out, and it they do it well. Except for the part where they absolutely refuse to recognize the AMR providers on a call. Cardiac arrest save press release? Zero mention of the AMR ambulance crew who was also on scene. We are referred to as the "contracted transport provider" by their PR people. Thanks, I'll go back to driving the ambulance now and bow to your bunker pants.


Golly gee gosh...and what does YOUR PIO say?  What's that you say?  Your department doesn't have one?  They have one but it doesn't get used?  They have one but he/she is incompetant?  Hmmm...sounds like there is some work that should be done instead of just whining...


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## Tigger (Apr 11, 2015)

triemal04 said:


> Golly gee gosh...and what does YOUR PIO say?  What's that you say?  Your department doesn't have one?  They have one but it doesn't get used?  They have one but he/she is incompetant?  Hmmm...sounds like there is some work that should be done instead of just whining...


That is at my part time job where we actually have a half decent PR person. He does a pretty good job of getting the work that AMR does independently into the media. The issue (so he says) is that the local media sources are more than content to just take fire's press releases and make a story out of them, while the same cannot be said of ours. I can't help but think that them being "government officials" and AMR being a "private contractor" has something to do with that. But still, regardless of what our PR person does and does not do, I imagine most self respecting EMS providers feel a bit of a slight being referred to as "transport providers." It also kinda sucks to have the fire brass come into our new hire academy and talk about partnerships and then hear stuff like that.

At my full time job I am the PIO (sort of). Considering the rural nature of my work place, there is not a lot of opportunity for press. Nonetheless we receive equal coverage as the fire districts we cover and I do what I can to get our happenings to the tiny local newspaper. I try to keep our facebook page interesting and I have had several people congratulate the ambulance service for providing services that they were not aware of. And despite my dislike for aspects of the fire service (ehem ALS first response when the ambulance is responding from the same block), I try to provide information that demonstrates how awesome we are while not degrading our partners.

Hope this is adequate for you and not considered more whining.


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## triemal04 (Apr 11, 2015)

That wasn't aimed just at you but everyone, just so we're clear.

At your AMR shop at least you have someone who is willing to do the work; if it's a problem I'd suggest finding out what you and the rest can do to help make their job easier.  I'd also have to wonder how aggressive the guy is at his job; until you are an established and competant presence, there may be difficulties in getting media outlets to listen, but the more it's tried, (in an effective, professional manner that is tooled to the media) the more they'll listen.

At your other job, I wouldn't ignore the bigger media outlets in your area; news stations, radio stations, newspapers, even if they aren't based right there will still be seen there.  Start making contacts; most media agencies will have a place for you to send out press-releases and notifications of any upcoming events.  Do you have a twitter feed?  (sounds lame, but it does work)  If not, start one.  Do any of the regional media outlets have a way to insert your twitter feed into theirs for specific events?  That's not uncommon; check that.  Do you have the money to send out a quarterly newsletter to everyone you serve?  Do that (even if you don't have any earth-shattering events, it lets people know you're around).


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## Uclabruin103 (Apr 11, 2015)

All this bickering about wage discrepancy is so silly in my mind. Why shouldn't fire medics make more?  Their job description alone says they do two jobs, so yeah....  I know this isn't the case and there's evidence for both sides, but my antedoctal so cal evidence is that private ambulance providers, if not running calls are usually not doing anything but watching TV, playing games, doing non job duty work, or sleeping. 

Now I know this same behavior also happens in some fire stations but the vast majority of stations I've worked in do not make this the norm.

Everyone's experience varies so this is just my experiences versus your experiences, so take a grain of salt with all this.


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## 46Young (Apr 11, 2015)

Tigger said:


> The fire department here has an awesome PR machine. They get the word out, and it they do it well. Except for the part where they absolutely refuse to recognize the AMR providers on a call. Cardiac arrest save press release? Zero mention of the AMR ambulance crew who was also on scene. We are referred to as the "contracted transport provider" by their PR people. Thanks, I'll go back to driving the ambulance now and bow to your bunker pants.



While I don't agree with the FD taking all of the glory, I know why this occurs- the FD will look after itself first and foremost. PR is vital for the FD when budget time comes around. The FD needs to portray itself as indispensable. My FD went to an all-ALS txp fleet, and has medics on all engines, the majority of ladder companies, and a few heavy rescue squads. This is show that we can have ALS to anyone in the county rapidly. You know, and I know that this does not have any large affect on pt. outcomes, and most likely dilutes the skill/proficiency pool, but it looks really good to the public. We give out awards and medals for all kinds of things. If I stop on the highway to hold C-spine at a car accident I have a good chance at receiving an award, for example. We also go out every Saturday to canvas the first due and provide working smoke detectors, and perform home safety checks for any interested residents. At the same time, we hand out the File of Life, which is a paper folded into a sleeve with a magnet to place on the refrigerator, to have the patient's Hx and demographics at the ready. Every time we have a fire, everyone is well aware that if the home received one of our smoke detectors, that placement will be attributed to the occupant's quick egress and survival. That one could actually be true. Then there's the coat drives, school backpack drives, things like that.

All of the PR stuff pays off when budget time rolls around. We can avoid layoffs, get merit increases after a multi-year freeze, get larger recruit schools, up-staff suppression units from three to four, avoid brown-outs, things like that. In the case of your AMR deal where they were marginalized and not even mentioned, that is most likely the FD assuring that they are viewed as indispensable, so that it will be all the easier to have the upper hand with any dealings with AMR, should the situation arise. You never know when the FD will want to take over (take back?) transport duties from a private company, like that North Las Vegas debacle. Again, I don't agree with how AMR was marginalized, but I do understand the reasoning behind it.


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## 46Young (Apr 11, 2015)

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2012/07/firefighters-dont-fight-fires.html
- That's not the bottom line:

http://www.rcinet.ca/en/2013/09/13/fires-in-modern-houses-burn-faster-hotter-more-toxic/






Meanwhile, fires burn much hotter, much faster than they did in the past. Collapses happen much quicker as wwll, due to the prevalence of type V construction. If anything, the residents have much less time to react, and the FD has much less time to protect exposures (sucks when a whole row of town homes goes off), or do a primary search while parts of the structure are still tenable, much less keep it to a room and contents, or just food on the stove, instead of a structure fire or full involvement, because staffing and deployment were pared back due to the infrequency of fire calls.

As far as the staffing part of the equation, four on a unit gets work done much faster than two or three. That's been proven many times over.

That's the bottom line.


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## BEN52 (Apr 12, 2015)

The question was asked. Many calud answers were given. Alarmingly many people jumped up and blasted the pay and defended their low pay.

Until single role providers realize their self worth, unite, and fight accordingly nothing will change. 

I don't consider myself a hero. I don't think im a "god". I don't think poorly of single role / private providers. I do think I deserve to make a reasonable living wage that doesn't require ot or a side job to own a decent home and pay my bills. I do think I deserve quality health benefits and an adequate pension that allows me a comfortable retirement after 25 year. I do think I deserve safe and comfortable living quarters as well as modern, safe equipment. I do think I deserve a career ladder that allows for growth, development, and merit based promotion. I do think I deserve a management team that fosters a good work environment and a culture of quality service. If you don't think you deserve this as a provider of an essential service you undervalue yourself. 

I make no apologies for defending any of this.


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## DrParasite (Apr 13, 2015)

BEN52 said:


> I do think I deserve to make a reasonable living wage that doesn't require ot or a side job to own a decent home and pay my bills. I do think I deserve quality health benefits and an adequate pension that allows me a comfortable retirement after 25 year. I do think I deserve safe and comfortable living quarters as well as modern, safe equipment. I do think I deserve a career ladder that allows for growth, development, and merit based promotion. I do think I deserve a management team that fosters a good work environment and a culture of quality service. If you don't think you deserve this as a provider of an essential service you undervalue yourself.


I agree.... but if you did, why would you work a job where you don't make a reasonable living wage?  a job that gives you poor benefits and/or no pension?  poor quarters if your lucky, posted in an ambulance for 12 hours on a street corner?  no career ladder?  work for a job that stresses quality service, but makes every mistake a punitive action, and an environment of suck?

I agree that ALL EMS providers deserve what you think they deserve, but many EMS workers are willing to accept less.  and a lot of fire departments started off with less, and through the hard work of generations before them, ended up in the position they are in now.  And the fire medics are often able to capitalize on that as well.  Also note that civilian FD based medics often make much less than their supression counterparts (cough FDNY EMS cough).

As long as you are willing to accept a job for less than ideal, or someone is willing to accept that poorly paying job offer, the market won't change.  Only when everyone stand up and say "No, I won't work for less than 15 an hour" will employers raise wages.


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## Carlos Danger (Apr 13, 2015)

My father-in-law is a union tradesman in one of the major metro areas in the north. Good, hardworking man. Been in Local XXX since he was 18 or 19, shortly after dropping out of high school. Makes well into the six figures most years, even when he takes takes several months off to live on unemployment because work is slow, or he doesn't like the commute to the jobs that are available then, or when he just feels like taking a vacation.

On several occasions we've had discussions that go something along these lines:

Dad: I'm glad that last job is over. I told Vinnie to tell the bosses not to bid on no more work like that right now, but you know, those guys down at the hall never stop lining up work. Right now they say we've got work scheduled to start as far out as 5 years from now.

Me: 5 years from now? What project manager can wait that long to start construction? Why don't they start it sooner?

Dad (proudly): They ain't got no choice but to wait. We and the other locals are just booked up.

Me: Why don't they hire a private firm?

Dad: Cuz they can't, cuz these are either public projects (which require the use of union labor,) or they involves some big tax deals or something for somebody and part of those deals is that they agree to use union labor.

Me: So the government is forcing the people doing these projects to use union labor, even though they are unable to start the project for several years?

Dad (proudly): Yep. We cost a lot more, too, but they gotta use us. Them bosses really take care of us. Make sure we got work and that we get paid what we are worth.

Me: Why do you cost so much more?

Dad (proudly): Cuz I get $54 per hour plus (recites a whole list of great benefits and ridiculous work rules), and double time for anything over 32 hours in a week - those private firms pay their guys like $25 bucks an hour and some crappy insurance and only 2 weeks vacation.

Me: Why do you make so much more than what the private guys do, though?

Dad: Cuz I'm in the union.

Me: I know.....but what makes your labor worth more than a private guy doing the same exact job?

Dad: Cuz the union takes care of us.

Me: Yeah, obviously they do. But how do they justify forcing others to pay you guys so much more than the market rate?

Dad: Cuz the laws say that they have to use us. So we can basically charge as much as we want.

Me: But why?

Dad: Cuz union.

Me: Dad, you realize you aren't answering my question at all. So you are saying that you are legitimately worth whatever the union bosses can convince the state and local governments to force others to pay you, even if it's far more than a private firm is able to charge?

Dad: Yeah. Whatever. Stop it with your philosophy mind tricks, you prick. And pour me another drink.

Me. No mind tricks, Dad, I just like to figure out how things work they way they do. Good talk.​


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## gonefishing (Apr 13, 2015)

Remi said:


> My father-in-law is a union tradesman in a one of the major metro areas in the north. Good, hardworking man. Been in Local XXX since he was 18 or 19, shortly after dropping out of high school. Makes well into the six figures most years, even when he takes takes several months off to live on unemployment because work is slow, or he doesn't like the commute to the jobs that are available then, or when he just feels like taking a vacation.
> 
> On several occasions we've had discussions that go something along these lines:
> 
> ...


It's like in LA county.  There are rules on the book that went in place by the IAFF (fire union) that prevent any private ambulance service from responding to an emergency.  Such as in OC the fire union fought AGAINST private paramedics long and hard! And they lost! they don't want large budgets going bye bye and ems has become fires bread and butter.  Without it they lose jobs and those big beastly dodge unnecessary ambulances they use.


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## Tigger (Apr 14, 2015)

Uclabruin103 said:


> All this bickering about wage discrepancy is so silly in my mind. Why shouldn't fire medics make more?  Their job description alone says they do two jobs, so yeah....  I know this isn't the case and there's evidence for both sides, but my antedoctal so cal evidence is that private ambulance providers, if not running calls are usually not doing anything but watching TV, playing games, doing non job duty work, or sleeping.
> 
> Now I know this same behavior also happens in some fire stations but the vast majority of stations I've worked in do not make this the norm.
> 
> Everyone's experience varies so this is just my experiences versus your experiences, so take a grain of salt with all this.


If you do a really poor job at providing one of the services and an acceptable job at the other, how much more money should you be making?


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## 46Young (Apr 15, 2015)

Tigger said:


> If you do a really poor job at providing one of the services and an acceptable job at the other, how much more money should you be making?



I expect to be compensated at a figure appropriate for my job description. More skill sets, more pay. 

People sometimes tell me that I'm overpaid where I work. Firemedics out of fire school, who have completed the four month ALS internship that follows fire school, are earning somewhere in the low to mid $70k/yr. I reference NYC, where I started at $22.02/hr, and went up to $26.72/hr after the six month probationary period. That's $45k - $55k in the first six months, on a 40 hour/week work schedule. The fire service has FLSA, where we don't get OT until we hit 212 hrs in a four week cycle, which averages 56 hrs/week straight time. We work a 56 hour week, so if we took 40 hrs/week of our hourly rate, that would be only $40k/yr. So, I'm already underpaid if I were a single role medic, since the cost of living in Fairfax County is roughly equal to the outer boroughs of NYC. And then I'm responsible for maintaining a skill set as a firefighter. FDNY guys get $39,7370 to start. Combined, that's $84k - $94k if you combine the two jobs. For sake of argument, if you combine the starting pay of a FDNY medic and a FDNY FF, you get $82k/yr. My pay was from a hospital based NYC 911 participating member.

Some might divide the pay of each job by two since you can't do both at once, but to follow that logic, a medic in a busy house should get paid more than a medic in a slow house that runs 1 call per day, since the busier medic uses their skill sets more often. In emergency services we're paid to maintain our skill sets, and be able to use them at any time. We're not paid by the call, unless we're volunteers and that's the arrangement. The provider may be better at one than the other, but the onus is on that provider to improve until their proficiency is balanced. 

When we promote to a technician, it's either Apparatus Driver, EMS, Hazmat, or TROT. The promotion comes with a step increase, and a grade increase in pay, around 10%. Same mentality - more responsibility, more pay.


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## 46Young (Apr 15, 2015)

FF's in the Southeast make anywhere from $22k/yr to $30k/yr starting, medics typically $30k - $35k, with Charleston County EMS (SC) paying a little more. The work hours are typically 56/wk, so these poor souls are getting $8 to $11/hr to start. I live in a right-to-work state, but we are IAFF, and have political influence, so we do quite well. I agree with the assessment that EMS and fire in Union states get a better deal than right-to-work states. Even if you're not union, you'll benefit from having union employers in your vicinity. I experienced this in NYC. My hospital was non-union, but basically my employer would beat whatever FDNY EMS was offering in regards to salary and working conditions, except for the pension. In my region, Maryland is a union state, so VA fire/EMS employers strive to keep in the pay/benefits corridor with their competitors in MD.


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## 46Young (Apr 15, 2015)

Remi said:


> My father-in-law is a union tradesman in one of the major metro areas in the north. Good, hardworking man. Been in Local XXX since he was 18 or 19, shortly after dropping out of high school. Makes well into the six figures most years, even when he takes takes several months off to live on unemployment because work is slow, or he doesn't like the commute to the jobs that are available then, or when he just feels like taking a vacation.
> 
> On several occasions we've had discussions that go something along these lines:
> 
> ...



Sounds like my uncles, who were carpenters and electricians in NYC. You couldn't change a damn light bulb if it went out; a union member had to do it, whenever they got around to it.

They would similarly make north of $50/hr, work a fair amount of OT, collect unemployment part of the year, but meanwhile they would whine about entitlements, people on gov't assistance.


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## 46Young (Apr 15, 2015)

Back home in NYC EMS, the Jewish wouldn't work the Sabbath, and made sure that they got off way before sundown on Friday night. Meanwhile, the Christians needed off on Sunday to go to church, but did not receive the same courtesy as the Jewish on the Sabbath. Can't make this stuff up.


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## Tigger (Apr 15, 2015)

46Young said:


> I expect to be compensated at a figure appropriate for my job description. More skill sets, more pay.


I'll admit that I posted that after a crappy shift where I watched the fire medics do an absolutely terrible job on each patient contact that I was unfortunate enough to bear witness to. I agree, if you have more responsibility, you deserve to be compensated for it. That is of course why a city fire medic makes more than their AMR counterpart. It just sucks watching them, and to me if you have that extra responsibility, you need to take it seriously. More often than not it seems that is the case locally.


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## terrible one (Apr 15, 2015)

It'd be nice if that extra responsibility and pay translated into better patient care, however, at least in CA it does not. I'd like to see some of the fire medics near me actually 'pretend' to care about EMS. 

These are generalizations which of course does not mean every FD or every FF / PM does not care. There are some that are definitely excellent providers, but they are not in the majority.


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## BEN52 (Apr 16, 2015)

Tigger said:


> I'll admit that I posted that after a crappy shift where I watched the fire medics do an absolutely terrible job on each patient contact that I was unfortunate enough to bear witness to. I agree, if you have more responsibility, you deserve to be compensated for it. That is of course why a city fire medic makes more than their AMR counterpart. It just sucks watching them, and to me if you have that extra responsibility, you need to take it seriously. More often than not it seems that is the case locally.





terrible one said:


> It'd be nice if that extra responsibility and pay translated into better patient care, however, at least in CA it does not. I'd like to see some of the fire medics near me actually 'pretend' to care about EMS.
> 
> These are generalizations which of course does not mean every FD or every FF / PM does not care. There are some that are definitely excellent providers, but they are not in the majority.



I will also say this for full disclosure. This site seems to have a lot of California based third service / private providers on the boards. The system you guys speak of seems quite strange to me to say the least, it is simply foreign to what I am accustomed to.

I previously worked for a very large, very high volume urban system that made EMS a priority. While there where bad apples and a generationally improving but still sometime poor attitude towards ems by some the EMS system as a whole was good. While I lived there I also worked PRN for a private service that provided 911 service to the remainder of the county with fire department first response. We responded as a "team". There was no FD medic is in charge and then passes care to the private ambulance. I now work in a suburban dual role system with FD transport. We have a low fire volume and EMS is our bread and butter. Quality care is a priority and EMS is not punishment work.

My point is that good fire based systems exist nor do I discount the beefs aired on this site about some fire based systems.


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## 46Young (Apr 16, 2015)

Tigger said:


> I'll admit that I posted that after a crappy shift where I watched the fire medics do an absolutely terrible job on each patient contact that I was unfortunate enough to bear witness to. I agree, if you have more responsibility, you deserve to be compensated for it. That is of course why a city fire medic makes more than their AMR counterpart. It just sucks watching them, and to me if you have that extra responsibility, you need to take it seriously. More often than not it seems that is the case locally.



Admittedly, when I first started here in 2008, medics were much less accountable than they are today. The quality of provider overall was much poorer. I'm talking about giving every patient every single diagnostic, nebs for any adventitious L/S, and if the pt is in extremis, hopefully one of the 2-4 medics on-scene will have a clue. If you run every test on every patient, even if you don't know why you're doing it, you can appear to be competent for the most part. As long as they run tests, get an IV, and give Oxygen, they would typically survive a poor pt. outcome and QA/QI.


Over the past few years, we've seen an influx of highly competent single role medic refugees, many of whom have EMS degrees. We dedicate the better part of a month in the fire academy to EMS specific training, and have a 4 month ALS internship, and we do dismiss people if they cannot get through it. Meanwhile, we're now seeing the benefit to our mass influx of medics from years ago, as medics have climbed high up the rank structure. Our Fire Chief also happens to be very pro-EMS.


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## terrible one (Apr 16, 2015)

BEN52 said:


> My point is that good fire based systems exist nor do I discount the beefs aired on this site about some fire based systems.




I'm sure there are great systems outside of CA. I can only speak of my experiences which soley reside in CA. I've been licensed in 5 different counties in CA and my fire counterparts attitudes didn't differ by much. 
I'm hoping I've only got another year and a half before I leave this state.


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## 46Young (Apr 16, 2015)

BEN52 said:


> I will also say this for full disclosure. This site seems to have a lot of California based third service / private providers on the boards. The system you guys speak of seems quite strange to me to say the least, it is simply foreign to what I am accustomed to.
> 
> I previously worked for a very large, very high volume urban system that made EMS a priority. While there where bad apples and a generationally improving but still sometime poor attitude towards ems by some the EMS system as a whole was good. While I lived there I also worked PRN for a private service that provided 911 service to the remainder of the county with fire department first response. We responded as a "team". There was no FD medic is in charge and then passes care to the private ambulance. I now work in a suburban dual role system with FD transport. We have a low fire volume and EMS is our bread and butter. Quality care is a priority and EMS is not punishment work.
> 
> My point is that good fire based systems exist nor do I discount the beefs aired on this site about some fire based systems.



The system that seems to be common in CA, FD ALS first response with private BLS txp seems to be a very poor decision. The reverse should be true, IMO, BLS first response with ALS txp, be it private or municipal. If it's a private txp. company, they absolutely need to have a sufficient number of in-service rigs to handle surges in call volume, 100% dedicated to 911 for the shift, not this nonsense where the ambo goes from IFT to 911 and back all throughout the shift. There's too much incentive to take a risk in taking an extra IFT call to make more $$$ at the expense of 911 coverage. 

The txp crew should have 100% control once they receive the patient.

We get single role refugees from all over the country, particularly OH, FL, AZ, and CA (LA/San Diego typically).

As far as the poor attitude of the fire department provider against having to do EMS, I think a large part of that is due to most of the calls being for minor issues, that don't need an ambulance or an emergency room. Speaking for myself, I've been positioning myself here to have as many ways and opportunities to get off of the ambulance as possible. I truly enjoyed EMS and got a lot out of it when I worked in the tiered system of NYC. We were never dispatched to normal drunks, most injuries or falls, EDP's, most MVA's, sick calls, abd. pain, or conscious diabetics. Now, those calls are 90% of my call volume. I hardly ever use my skills anymore, and my day and nights are spent mostly transporting people that don't have a true need for an ambulance or a hospital at that moment.

So yes, I do find myself resenting the ambulance somewhat. I still genuinely enjoy a good medical call, that interest hasn't left me, but over the past 13 years in EMS I've grown quite tired of responding from the shower, the gym, from lunch and dinner, from training, and from bed several times a night to run BLS patients with very minor issues. I hate having to go back to sleep when I get home. Since I'm running mostly BLS, I find the fire side way more interesting and stimulating. Nowadays, I'm positioning to be on a fire apparatus on my regular shift, and then do EMS txp. for OT. Keep in mind that the average burnout time of the typical single role EMS provider is 7-10 years, and I'm well past that. Even though I've been fire based for the last seven years, I've done more than FT hours in txp. Even back in NYC, if I had never left for a FD, I would have been a PA or RN by now. Sitting on street corners gets old after a while.

A lot of firemedics I talk to share similar thoughts. Any busy "all-ALS" system, where every ambulance in the fleet has a medic on it, where the medics have to run every BLS as well as ALS call, slowly but surely crushes a medic's soul.


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## 46Young (Apr 16, 2015)

Adding to my last post, the norm in my FD is to keep the personnel assigned to the shift on the suppression apparatus, and have details and OT personnel staff the ambulance if it's vacant. What happens is that in busy stations, that ambulance vacancy is typically passed over as an OT opportunity, so if you're "stuck" on the ambulance, you're the one being held over for 12 hours, or worse, recalled for the p.m. half. This happens A LOT. If I work Friday/Sunday, I have to do OT on Thu. night just so that I can go home on Saturday, or OT Friday night so that I can go home on Sunday (36 hour limit). Even if the ambo is staffed, more often than not it's an OT person coming in from another station, and they may be waiting on someone else as well. So, on a typical ambo tour, I show up a little before 0600 for a 0700 start, but can't get out because of late relief until 0730-0830. Meanwhile, the suppression shifts do not generally have this problem, since they are the first to get filled.

Just another reason to dislike the ambulance. I wonder how many other departments have a similar problem to this one.


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## 46Young (Apr 16, 2015)

terrible one said:


> I'm sure there are great systems outside of CA. I can only speak of my experiences which soley reside in CA. I've been licensed in 5 different counties in CA and my fire counterparts attitudes didn't differ by much.
> I'm hoping I've only got another year and a half before I leave this state.



It seems like the majority of complaints about EMS ops and employers comes from our CA members. Same for those that have been abused by fire departments. I would think that members of the fire service that are making $100k/yr or so would have a much better attitude towards private EMT's, who are basically making welfare wages when you consider the cost of living in CA.

As much as I resent running nonsense BLS (stuff that I wouldn't even dignify by calling it BLS), I never show it outwardly on a call. I simply try to turn the call over as quickly as humanly possible so long as the pt. gets all that they need, while not giving the vibe of being in a hurry to the pt if possible. I write my report on the way back to the station, and go in-service when I'm in my first-due, so that I don't run 2nd/3rd due nursing home calls. I just want to get the call out of my life at this point. First response is good for that, since I can shave 5-15 minutes off of each call with my suppression crew.


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## sweetpete (Apr 17, 2015)

Some of these responses are dead on. if you want to be paid more, maybe try going to fire school and get hired on a fire department. That's what I did because I knew I didn't want to work IFT the rest of my life. Otherwise, if you're not happy or feel undervalued in this line of work....maybe it's time to switch careers (if you're able?)


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## 46Young (Apr 17, 2015)

Someone on this thread mentioned that we run less fires nowadays. I responded by showing how modern house fires burn much hotter and much more rapidly than those in the past, which necessitates an even more rapid response, if anything, not less resources based on call volume. Here's a house fire that developed very quickly, and got away from the crews, in my backyard, Arlington VA:

http://www.statter911.com/2015/04/16/pre-arrival-video-from-arlington-va-house-fire/


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## Tigger (Apr 18, 2015)

sweetpete said:


> Some of these responses are dead on. if you want to be paid more, maybe try going to fire school and get hired on a fire department. That's what I did because I knew I didn't want to work IFT the rest of my life. Otherwise, if you're not happy or feel undervalued in this line of work....maybe it's time to switch careers (if you're able?)


Or just find a place that pays their people decently. It is not a necessity to become a firefighter to do alright working EMS.


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## gotbeerz001 (Apr 19, 2015)

Tigger said:


> Or just find a place that pays their people decently. It is not a necessity to become a firefighter to do alright working EMS.


The people who complain about pay are usually those who are unwilling to relocate for the job. The argument is often:
"I should be able to stay in my home town as an EMT-Basic and live an upper class lifestyle working part-time since I save babies for a living."

Those who tend to complain will complain regardless of their circumstances.


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## triemal04 (Apr 19, 2015)

gotshirtz001 said:


> *The people who complain about pay are usually those who are unwilling to relocate for the job. *The argument is often:
> "I should be able to stay in my home town as an EMT-Basic and live an upper class lifestyle working part-time since I save babies for a living."
> 
> Those who tend to complain will complain regardless of their circumstances.


Or don't have the needed qualities for a high paying job...or the willingness to look for one...or the willingness to fight for better pay/benefits...or really any sort of self-responsibility or drive.

There are two common responses that come up with this topic, gotshirtz just mentioned one, "I'm a super cool lifesaver!  I want to do whatever I want, whenever I want while I live in my dream home and nothing more and I want everything I want NOW!  Waaaaaaaaaaaah!"  The other comes up when whiners get told that to improve their lot it will take effort, potentially a lot of effort on their part, "Bbbbbbbut I'm so overworked, I just CAN'T do anything else...someone has to do it FOR ME while I sit back and wait!  Waaaaaaaaaah!"

Pathetic.

Look at all the blue-collar jobs out there (and EMS walks a fine line between blue and white) or any profession that has generally good pay, good benefits, a retirement, good schedule and so forth:  do you really think that it just happened like that?  Do you really think that decades ago people in that job didn't have to go out and fight to make things better, and then keep pressure up to keep what they'd gained?  Do you really think if EMS wants to the same it'll just be handed out on a silver platter without any individual work?

Wait...obviously the answer to that last question is a resounding "yes."

Pathetic.


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## NomadicMedic (Apr 19, 2015)

I don't think ems walks a fine line between blue and white collar... it's clearly a blue collar, shift workin' vo-ed job. There's no real difference from a welder, electrician or plumber. Go to class, pass the course material, complete an apprenticeship, become certified, go to work.


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## Generic (Apr 20, 2015)

46Young said:


> The system that seems to be common in CA, FD ALS first response with private BLS txp seems to be a very poor decision.



Actually, once you get outside of Los Angeles and Orange counties, EMS systems are generally either FD ALS first response (sometimes xport too) with private ALS or FD BLS with private ALS. I think that there are many people on this board that are from LA/OC that the perception is skewed.


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