# working as an EMT in a skirt



## addictedforever (Jun 6, 2011)

I am looking forward to becoming an EMT-B as soon as I can, but I'm having trouble getting accepted into a program. 

I wear a skirt as part of my beliefs and so would wear a skirt on the job. I've worked in the medical field since I was 16 and up until now it has never been a problem. It is state law that EMT's wear pants, so I got uniform pants and I wear a uniform skirt over them along with the uniform shirt.

When I first contacted the instructor of the basic class I was interested in, he told me that no department would ever accept someone working in a skirt. So I went to my dad's chief and board. I got accepted to go with them, pending the training. I also went to the top OSHA person in the state and got his approval.

I've done ride alongs so that the paramedics and chief could see that I presented no safety hazard even with a skirt. But I still can't get the instructor to accept me into the program.

Should I try every other program in the state? Wait until my dad's department offers the class, maybe in a couple years? Give up my dream? Any suggestions? And how would you feel about working with someone who wore a skirt?


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## abckidsmom (Jun 6, 2011)

I've worked with some menonites, who just made dresses that were either plain white or plain navy, and they sewed patches and whatnot onto the right spots.

Honestly?  I think it's a little silly.  I have even been dresses-only at times in the past.  I believe that if you are going to be so legalistic on the dresses-only thing that you let it interfere with the functionality of your job, it crosses a line.

It's work.  Real physical labor at times.  For your safety, your legs need to be covered by sturdy fabric, and there needs to be no loose, flowing fabric around.

For duty shifts, I believe EMS providers need to wear pants.  I do think that uniform skirts look very nice for other occasions where you are not going to be actually doing the work, though.


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## bigbaldguy (Jun 6, 2011)

I don't think there is any specific OSHA policy that requires medics to wear pants. I know of many departments that let their people wear shorts and a ankle length skirt would provide more protection than shorts in many situations. I have to think it would be a pain to wear a skirt on the truck but I personally can't see why it would be a safety issue. I know I have seen one female police officer who wears a long skirt. It looked a little odd but I can't see how it makes much of a difference in actual performance of her duties.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/64825529@N00/3688382035/
not really relevant but a funny photo I came across.


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## crazycajun (Jun 6, 2011)

addictedforever said:


> I am looking forward to becoming an EMT-B as soon as I can, but I'm having trouble getting accepted into a program.
> 
> I wear a skirt as part of my beliefs and so would wear a skirt on the job. I've worked in the medical field since I was 16 and up until now it has never been a problem. It is state law that EMT's wear pants, so I got uniform pants and I wear a uniform skirt over them along with the uniform shirt.
> 
> ...



I understand religious beliefs. However, does your religion find it acceptable should someone see under your skirt? Would you be comfortable administering CPR and having bystanders seeing under your skirt. Remember you don't have time to fix your clothing while performing many of the tasks we do. Suppose you have to climb an embankment or a ladder. If EMS is truly your passion and calling, I believe God will forgive you for wearing pants.


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## crazycajun (Jun 6, 2011)

bigbaldguy said:


> it makes much of a difference in actual performance of her duties.
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/64825529@N00/3688382035/
> not really relevant but a funny photo I came across.



I think I need a cold shower.


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## JPINFV (Jun 6, 2011)

Since this is a religious issue, I think the following questions are pertinent. Please take these as honest thoughts and not someone trying to slam your beliefs.

1. You said that you would wear pants underneath the skirt. How is this anything but a loophole? Does your specific religion offer exemptions for specific conditions? If the difference between "male" garments and "female" garments is whether it has one opening at the bottom or 2, how do they view hospital gowns? 

2. Did Jesus wear pants? If not, then does that make "male" vs "female" clothing an aspect of societal culture (thus open to change) instead of a universal truth? If the gender of specific articles of clothing are up to the culture, how are pants designed, manufactured, and marketed specifically to women (there are work pants that fit this bill) articles of clothing designed for men? After all, I'd look pretty silly wearing a pair of jeans designed for women.


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## JPINFV (Jun 6, 2011)

crazycajun said:


> I understand religious beliefs. However, does your religion find it acceptable should someone see under your skirt? Would you be comfortable administering CPR and having bystanders seeing under your skirt. Remember you don't have time to fix your clothing while performing many of the tasks we do. Suppose you have to climb an embankment or a ladder. If EMS is truly your passion and calling, I believe God will forgive you for wearing pants.




...because skirts can't go down to the ankles? 

Now a more serious question is that the only way to maintain modesty and mobility with a skirt is a low, moderately loose skirt. This would also present a snag hazard when it comes to working things like vehicle collisions.


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## lampnyter (Jun 6, 2011)

I believe it will be almost impossible for you to get a job if you can only wear a skirt. Not only does is it a hazard, most companies wouldnt want you to look different than everybody else.


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## Aidey (Jun 6, 2011)

abckidsmom said:


> Honestly?  I think it's a little silly.  I have even been dresses-only at times in the past.  I believe that if you are going to be so legalistic on the dresses-only thing that you let it interfere with the functionality of your job, it crosses a line.
> 
> It's work.  Real physical labor at times.  For your safety, your legs need to be covered by sturdy fabric, and there needs to be no loose, flowing fabric around.
> 
> For duty shifts, I believe EMS providers need to wear pants.  I do think that uniform skirts look very nice for other occasions where you are not going to be actually doing the work, though.



I agree. I can easily think of how a long skirt could be a problem when lifting, moving and carrying patients and when using the gurney.


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## DesertMedic66 (Jun 6, 2011)

The point of a uniform is to have everyone looking the same. It's the same reason at least for my company that we can't have hair past our shoulders, earrings, alot of make-up, beards, colorful shoes, etc. It serves both for safety and to have everyone look the same to the most part. 

In theory no I would not have a problem working with a female wearing a skirt. But if her skirt started to cause problems then Im going to call a supervisor as fast as I can. I am not going to risk mine or my partners safety for religious reasons.


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## Anjel (Jun 6, 2011)

Its too dangerous to not have full range of motion with your legs. And you could get caught in something.

There are just certain jobs that pants are required for. Ems is not a girly light worked job. 

It can be tough. And physically demanding. And u have to be able to move around freely and fast.


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## Flight-LP (Jun 6, 2011)

bigbaldguy said:


> I don't think there is any specific OSHA policy that requires medics to wear pants.



Actually there are two specific OSHA standards that cover this issue. The OSHA Bloodborne Pathogen standard clearly states that "appropriate" PPE is one that adequately protects skin from potential infectious exposure. Outside of that, the "catch all" General Duty Clause (OSH Act 5(a)(1)) requires employers to provide a safe work environment free from identifiable potential hazards. 

There is a clause in the BBP standard that allows for temporary abstaining from the standard as well as a clause that allows a provider to forego the standard requirements if the employer agrees to an ongoing evaluation of the policy in place (i.e. FD's that allow shorts). Regardless, the employer is responsible for ensuring the safety of it's employees and is completely within it's rights to decide what said policy will be. In other words, if they say no skirts, then no skirts will be allowed. It's a hard one to dispute.


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## Sasha (Jun 6, 2011)

At this point you have to decide what is more powerful and important.. your desire to be an EMT or your religion. 

Your choice of beliefs will definitely interfere with your career choices. Sorry but I don't believe you should be able to wear a skirt and work. It's hazardous.


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## frdude1000 (Jun 6, 2011)

A few years backs we had an orthodox Jewish girl in our standby EMS group.  She was allowed to wear a black skirt.  I do agree it could pose some hazard.  I think that is the decision of the wearer though and they should sign a document with the serivce that they are wearing the skirt at their own risk.


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## TransportJockey (Jun 6, 2011)

frdude1000 said:


> A few years backs we had an orthodox Jewish girl in our standby EMS group.  She was allowed to wear a black skirt.  I do agree it could pose some hazard.  I think that is the decision of the wearer though and they should sign a document with the serivce that they are wearing the skirt at their own risk.



Most services probably still wouldn't be willing to take the risk. Even if the person signs a waiver, it still leaves the service open to suit.


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## JPINFV (Jun 6, 2011)

Event standby is also a different environment than working an an ambulance.


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## addictedforever (Jun 6, 2011)

crazycajun said:


> I understand religious beliefs. However, does your religion find it acceptable should someone see under your skirt? Would you be comfortable administering CPR and having bystanders seeing under your skirt. Remember you don't have time to fix your clothing while performing many of the tasks we do. Suppose you have to climb an embankment or a ladder. If EMS is truly your passion and calling, I believe God will forgive you for wearing pants.



I did say I would be wearing pants underneath my skirt. And I have climbed ladders and embankments with a skirt on. Trust me, I've done basically everything there is to do with a skirt on. I've done some extreme hiking, because I hunt. I'm used to it. But yes maybe God would forgive me for wearing pants.



JPINFV said:


> Since this is a religious issue, I think the following questions are pertinent. Please take these as honest thoughts and not someone trying to slam your beliefs.
> 
> 1. You said that you would wear pants underneath the skirt. How is this anything but a loophole? Does your specific religion offer exemptions for specific conditions? If the difference between "male" garments and "female" garments is whether it has one opening at the bottom or 2, how do they view hospital gowns?
> 
> 2. Did Jesus wear pants? If not, then does that make "male" vs "female" clothing an aspect of societal culture (thus open to change) instead of a universal truth? If the gender of specific articles of clothing are up to the culture, how are pants designed, manufactured, and marketed specifically to women (there are work pants that fit this bill) articles of clothing designed for men? After all, I'd look pretty silly wearing a pair of jeans designed for women.



I agree you probably would look pretty silly wearing women's jeans. As far as a loophole, I don't know. Maybe it is. And I'm pretty sure I could not get an exception for this, unfortunately. I would be okay with wearing just pants for the job. I'll have to do more checking.



JPINFV said:


> ...because skirts can't go down to the ankles?
> 
> Now a more serious question is that the only way to maintain modesty and mobility with a skirt is a low, moderately loose skirt. This would also present a snag hazard when it comes to working things like vehicle collisions.



Um, you must not wear skirts. No disrespect intended. The skirt I wear for on the job does not come to my ankles, but it is below my knees. It's modest, but does not present a snag hazard. That was one of the specific hazards my chief looked at before accepting it. 



firefite said:


> The point of a uniform is to have everyone looking the same. It's the same reason at least for my company that we can't have hair past our shoulders, earrings, alot of make-up, beards, colorful shoes, etc. It serves both for safety and to have everyone look the same to the most part.
> 
> In theory no I would not have a problem working with a female wearing a skirt. But if her skirt started to cause problems then Im going to call a supervisor as fast as I can. I am not going to risk mine or my partners safety for religious reasons.



I can definitely appreciate calling a supervisor if a skirt started causing problems. I would give up my dream, if I honestly tho't I presented a serious hazard to myself or anyone else. And one of the paramedics told me that he had quite forgotten that I wore a skirt. I had demonstrated my capablity to perform the job without presenting a safety hazard, so he had stopped focusing on that.


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## addictedforever (Jun 6, 2011)

Anjel1030 said:


> Its too dangerous to not have full range of motion with your legs. And you could get caught in something.
> 
> There are just certain jobs that pants are required for. Ems is not a girly light worked job.
> 
> It can be tough. And physically demanding. And u have to be able to move around freely and fast.



I know all that. Why do you think I want the job?  I know that EMS is not a girly light worked job. I also know that it can be tough and physically demanding. And before you say that I can't move around freely and fast in a skirt, you should observe me in action first. Trust me, I can move more freely in a skirt than in pants, but since I also wear pants on the job, well, I find them more restricting than a skirt.


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## PotatoMedic (Jun 6, 2011)

I knew a firefighter who wore a skirt at work.  She complained that it bunched up when she put her bunker pants on.  

The chief offered to have a "turnout skirt" made but I think she declined.


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## ArcticKat (Jun 6, 2011)

I have several collegues who are nurses with a religious precedent to wear skirts, but, they also have an exemption when it comes to their uniforms and are permitted to wear pants.


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## addictedforever (Jun 6, 2011)

abckidsmom said:


> It's work.  Real physical labor at times.  For your safety, your legs need to be covered by sturdy fabric, and there needs to be no loose, flowing fabric around.
> 
> For duty shifts, I believe EMS providers need to wear pants.  I do think that uniform skirts look very nice for other occasions where you are not going to be actually doing the work, though.



I do wear pants. I know its real physical labor that's part of the reason I want it. My skirt is not loose and flowing. If I could, I'd show you a picture. I have one.



bigbaldguy said:


> I don't think there is any specific OSHA policy that requires medics to wear pants. I know of many departments that let their people wear shorts and a ankle length skirt would provide more protection than shorts in many situations. I have to think it would be a pain to wear a skirt on the truck but I personally can't see why it would be a safety issue. I know I have seen one female police officer who wears a long skirt. It looked a little odd but I can't see how it makes much of a difference in actual performance of her duties.
> 
> I don't wear an ankle length skirt, because of trip hazards, but again, I repeat I wear pants. And when wearing a skirt is what I'm used to, it's not a pain at all. What's a pain is getting used to the pants.
> 
> ...


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## MasterIntubator (Jun 6, 2011)

Have you done some homework on job requirements of the company you plan on applying to? 

If they have specific uniform requirements, it will be specified in the interview.  For instance... our service advises that you will not have a beard, can't smoke ( on or off duty ), hair length, etc.... and wear the issued uniform ( underwear does not get addressed )  And if you are not able to meet those, you won't be hired.  Its a 30 page document on uniforms.... ( kinda ridiculous... really )

If they advise that your situation is not an issue, and can back that up in writing.... then fighting for that spot in class is worth every penny.  

Might need to look into other classes/instructors, or nursing.


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## MasterIntubator (Jun 6, 2011)

addictedforever said:


> I don't need most companies. I've already got accepted at one, if I can just get the training. Trust me, the paramedics I've worked with have told me that after the first couple times, they didn't even think about that I wore a skirt.



Eh... answered that one.  Are there other agencies that teach?


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## 18G (Jun 6, 2011)

I used to run EMS with a girl that always wore a skirt as part of her belief's. It was a long ankle length skirt made out of the same material as "EMT pants" and had cargo pockets on in I believe. Essentially it was EMT pants in skirt form. I think it looked out of place and I don't agree with females wearing skirts in EMS. It never caused a problem that I was aware of but a skirt is not form fitting and as such could easily get snagged.  

I don't understand the religious basis for females not being permitted to wear pants.God will not shun you for wearing pants... I'm sure he will understand your desire to heal and comfort. 

My suggestion is to wear pants and avoid the issue all together.


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## addictedforever (Jun 6, 2011)

FireWA1 said:


> I knew a firefighter who wore a skirt at work.  She complained that it bunched up when she put her bunker pants on.
> 
> The chief offered to have a "turnout skirt" made but I think she declined.



LOL! Duh, the skirt would bunch up.  I have to wear a jumpsuit on the scenes of MVC's, but I don't think about it bunching up. I love the job to much!



ArcticKat said:


> I have several collegues who are nurses with a religious precedent to wear skirts, but, they also have an exemption when it comes to their uniforms and are permitted to wear pants.



Well, I may just have to check into that. It may be what I end up doing.



MasterIntubator said:


> Eh... answered that one.  Are there other agencies that teach?



I'm checking into that. Trust me, I will find somewhere or something that works! I'm determined to become an EMT, maybe too determined.



18G said:


> I used to run EMS with a girl that always wore a skirt as part of her belief's. It was a long ankle length skirt made out of the same material as "EMT pants" and had cargo pockets on in I believe. Essentially it was EMT pants in skirt form. I think it looked out of place and I don't agree with females wearing skirts in EMS. It never caused a problem that I was aware of but a skirt is not form fitting and as such could easily get snagged.
> 
> I don't understand the religious basis for females not being permitted to wear pants.God will not shun you for wearing pants... I'm sure he will understand your desire to heal and comfort.
> 
> My suggestion is to wear pants and avoid the issue all together.



I may end up doing that. I would not wear an ankle length skirt because of trip hazards, and anyway do not see any point in wearing ankle length if I'm wearing uniform pants underneath.


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## MSDeltaFlt (Jun 6, 2011)

Here's an option from a colleague of mine who's Pentecostal: skorts with cargo pockets.


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## bigbaldguy (Jun 6, 2011)

I'm a little curious about all the folks that are bringing up the possibility of a skirt "snagging". I've seen EMT's walking around with pants festooned with bulging pockets, equipment dangling, radios sticking out, ect.. why would a skirt be any more likely to snag than these things? I do have to admit that a pair of 8 inch medic boots are gonna look awfully funny with a knee length skirt though 

The OP didn't ask us if we thought the idea of wearing a skirt was right or wrong from a spiritual/moral point of view but if it was a bad idea in terms of job function. I think we should stick to that and avoid comments that criticize her beliefs.


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## addictedforever (Jun 6, 2011)

MSDeltaFlt said:


> Here's an option from a colleague of mine who's Pentecostal: skorts with cargo pockets.



Hmmm...I'd have to do some checking into that one. Like how she got them made and how exactly they were. Might be an option.



bigbaldguy said:


> I'm a little curious about all the folks that are bringing up the possibility of a skirt "snagging". I've seen EMT's walking around with pants festooned with bulging pockets, equipment dangling, radios sticking out, ect.. why would a skirt be any more likely to snag than these things? I do have to admit that a pair of 8 inch medic boots are gonna look awfully funny with a knee length skirt though



And yes, I've wondered the same thing about EMT's pants catching on things. Actually, I once saw an EMT with particularly bulging pockets get snagged and it ripped. He was not impressed.
I do wear pants underneath, so it looks no funnier than y'alls boots. I do admit it does give a funny picture without the pants.


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## JPINFV (Jun 6, 2011)

18G said:


> I don't understand the religious basis for females not being permitted to wear pants.God will not shun you for wearing pants... I'm sure he will understand your desire to heal and comfort.


I could argue that it's more consistent than my religions take that the only parts of the moral codes in Deut. and Leviticus that still count are the ones parts that have to do about sex. 

Apparently God will forgive me for eating pork, but not for wearing a rubber.  I similarly have an issue with loopholes (Can any Jews on here honestly explain how things like, "We can't use elevators because the spark that may be generated when we push the button, but if the elevator is automatically stopping at every floor, we can use it," or the entire concept of the "eruv?" If God doesn't want you doing something, how does erecting a wire negate God's will?) that are used to get out of the burdensome parts of religion.


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## DesertMedic66 (Jun 6, 2011)

If the company is fine with you wearing skirts then go for it. As you already stated it has not posed you a problem. Its going to take your partners time to get used to a partner wearing skirts. So just be ready for the hesitant mood from some patients and partners. As I said before I wouldn't have an issue working with a partner who wore a skirt as long as it doesn't cause any problems.

What (might) help is having a representative from the company that wants to hire you go talk to the director of the school that won't let you go thru the class.


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## addictedforever (Jun 7, 2011)

firefite said:


> If the company is fine with you wearing skirts then go for it. As you already stated it has not posed you a problem. Its going to take your partners time to get used to a partner wearing skirts. So just be ready for the hesitant mood from some patients and partners. As I said before I wouldn't have an issue working with a partner who wore a skirt as long as it doesn't cause any problems.
> 
> What (might) help is having a representative from the company that wants to hire you go talk to the director of the school that won't let you go thru the class.



Thanks! I know it will take my partners time. I'm willing to give them time. And all the patients that I've helped with so far have not seemed to care, nor has anybody else that I've worked with.

And thanks for the suggestion! Who knows? It might work


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## DesertMedic66 (Jun 7, 2011)

And yes defiantly try the other programs in your area. Make sure to tell them about the people who have already said yes to not having a problem with you wearing a skirt.


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## addictedforever (Jun 7, 2011)

firefite said:


> And yes defiantly try the other programs in your area. Make sure to tell them about the people who have already said yes to not having a problem with you wearing a skirt.



Thanks! I'm willing to try pretty much anything. I'll have to keep that in mind next time I contact my future instructor!


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## subliminal1284 (Jun 7, 2011)

I know where youre coming from I was raised in a religion with similar beliefs when I was young, they were so bad these women even wore skirts swimming. I never had those beliefs myself however. I hate to say it but I think wearing a skirt as an EMT is BAD BAD BAD idea. Not only will patients be able to see up your skirt as you provide care it also leaves your legs more exposed to the nasty stuff us EMT's come in contact with. Sure you could wear a skirt over pants but really whats the point of the skirt? Youre still wearing pants. Not to mention the patients and public in general will think youre looney. But hey whatever floats your boat.


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## addictedforever (Jun 7, 2011)

subliminal1284 said:


> I know where youre coming from I was raised in a religion with similar beliefs when I was young, they were so bad these women even wore skirts swimming. I never had those beliefs myself however. I hate to say it but I think wearing a skirt as an EMT is BAD BAD BAD idea. Not only will patients be able to see up your skirt as you provide care it also leaves your legs more exposed to the nasty stuff us EMT's come in contact with. Sure you could wear a skirt over pants but really whats the point of the skirt? Youre still wearing pants. Not to mention the patients and public in general will think youre looney. But hey whatever floats your boat.[/QUOTE
> 
> My first reaction was to literally LOL at your last two sentences, cuz that doesn't really bother me.  Since I do wear pants, is there any other reason why a skirt is a bad idea? Other than being seen as looney?  I really want to know reasons behind every person's point of view.


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## JPINFV (Jun 7, 2011)

addictedforever said:


> My first reaction was to literally LOL at your last two sentences, cuz that doesn't really bother me.  Since I do wear pants, is there any other reason why a skirt is a bad idea? Other than being seen as looney?  I really want to know reasons behind every person's point of view.



Since you asked, isn't it a bit of following the letter but not the intent? If pants are wrong because pants= men's clothing, how does pants+skirt all of a sudden become women's clothing?


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## subliminal1284 (Jun 7, 2011)

Well if youre wearing pants under the skirt I dont see any real safety reasons besides looking silly, but wearing a skirt by itself is not a good idea in EMS.


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## addictedforever (Jun 7, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> Since you asked, isn't it a bit of following the letter but not the intent? If pants are wrong because pants= men's clothing, how does pants+skirt all of a sudden become women's clothing?



You sure you want me to answer this? I'll give you a short version. Pants alone are not felt to be modest since they are generally more formfitting. A skirt in this line of work as has been pointed out may not be modest either, therefore you pair them together, and theoretically you have modesty and safety and compliance with OSHA.


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## addictedforever (Jun 7, 2011)

subliminal1284 said:


> Well if youre wearing pants under the skirt I dont see any real safety reasons besides looking silly, but wearing a skirt by itself is not a good idea in EMS.



I wouldn't be allowed to wear just a skirt anyways according to OSHA. I know, I may look a little odd, but as I said that doesn't bother me.


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## subliminal1284 (Jun 7, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> Since you asked, isn't it a bit of following the letter but not the intent? If pants are wrong because pants= men's clothing, how does pants+skirt all of a sudden become women's clothing?



Exactly, what did everyone wear in Jesus's time? Robes! Sure they had different robes for men and women just as we today have pants made for men and women. So really in my opinion these religions that believe only believe men should wear pants, and women only skirts is really silly if you think about it. Dont wear mens pants and youre all good!


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## DesertMedic66 (Jun 7, 2011)

addictedforever said:


> My first reaction was to literally LOL at your last two sentences, cuz that doesn't really bother me.  SiI do wear pants, is there any other reason why a skirt is a bad idea? Other than being seen as looney?  I really want to know reasons behind every person's point of view.



well it's odvious that with wearing pants and a skirt it's going to be hot with 2 layers of cloths on!! Haha 

I think the major concern is that normally skirts are really loose and can catch on objects really easily. Or the total opposite and you have the tight fitting skirts that won't allow for a full range of motion.


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## JPINFV (Jun 7, 2011)

addictedforever said:


> You sure you want me to answer this? I'll give you a short version. Pants alone are not felt to be modest since they are generally more formfitting. A skirt in this line of work as has been pointed out may not be modest either, therefore you pair them together, and theoretically you have modesty and safety and compliance with OSHA.


Sure, and I accept the short version. 

If the concern is form fitting, EMS pants aren't generally form fitting...
http://www.thefirestore.com/store/product.cfm/pid_7233_511_taclite_ems_pant_women_39_s_fit/


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## subliminal1284 (Jun 7, 2011)

I can see it now, 3am you get a call to give one of the towns homeless men with a history of ETOH abuse a ride to the hospital, he sees a female EMT in a skirt and decides hes gonna run his hand up that skirt and try to cope a quick feel of the goods. :lol:


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## addictedforever (Jun 7, 2011)

firefite said:


> well it's odvious that with wearing pants and a skirt it's going to be hot with 2 layers of cloths on!! Haha
> 
> I think the major concern is that normally skirts are really loose and can catch on objects really easily. Or the total opposite and you have the tight fitting skirts that won't allow for a full range of motion.



 I know what you're talking about, but believe it or not, what I've found so far is that I'm generally freezing cold when it's cold outside with both on. And I'm just fine when it's warm out. Not usually to warm. I blame it on the pants. 



JPINFV said:


> Sure, and I accept the short version.
> 
> If the concern is form fitting, EMS pants aren't generally form fitting...
> http://www.thefirestore.com/store/product.cfm/pid_7233_511_taclite_ems_pant_women_39_s_fit/



Well, I'll check it out. Thanks! If I could find pants that were not form fitting, perhaps there would be an exception made.


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## addictedforever (Jun 7, 2011)

subliminal1284 said:


> I can see it now, 3am you get a call to give one of the towns homeless men with a history of ETOH abuse a ride to the hospital, he sees a female EMT in a skirt and decides hes gonna run his hand up that skirt and try to cope a quick feel of the goods. :lol:



I've already had that experience multiple times, not in EMS, but in a nursing home as a CNA. Trust me, ya learn real quick how to avoid such things.


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## Anjel (Jun 7, 2011)

so... just saw the pic of you in your skirt and pants

and im sorry that looks fricken hilarious. 

No way my company or school would ever allow that. It just doesn't look professional.

But I am not trying to discourage you. Im sorry if my earlier post sounded rude.

If you can do and can find a place to let you do it. Then more power to ya.


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## 281mustang (Jun 7, 2011)

addictedforever said:


> Well, I'll check it out. Thanks! If I could find pants that were not form fitting, perhaps there would be an exception made.


 Who would make this said exception, out of curiosity?


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## addictedforever (Jun 7, 2011)

Anjel1030 said:


> so... just saw the pic of you in your skirt and pants
> 
> and im sorry that looks fricken hilarious.
> 
> ...



 Okay thanks for your opinion. Glad you could have a laugh.  

I did not take your earlier post to be rude. Trust me I've had worse. So you think I should just give up the skirt and just wear the pants, provided I could find some I was comfortable with?


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## addictedforever (Jun 7, 2011)

281mustang said:


> Who would make this said exception, out of curiosity?



No problem. It would have to approved by the bishop of my church.


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## DesertMedic66 (Jun 7, 2011)

addictedforever said:


> Okay thanks for your opinion. Glad you could have a laugh.
> 
> I did not take your earlier post to be rude. Trust me I've had worse. So you think I should just give up the skirt and just wear the pants, provided I could find some I was comfortable with?



If you could do that then that would be your best bet.


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## addictedforever (Jun 7, 2011)

firefite said:


> If you could do that then that would be your best bet.



I guess that will be my next research project. Thanks


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## DesertMedic66 (Jun 7, 2011)

addictedforever said:


> No problem. It would have to approved by the bishop of my church.



Just make sure that you explain to your bishop why you want to wear the pants. Helping to save lifes, in my opinion, would be a good reason to let you just wear non form fitting pants.


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## addictedforever (Jun 7, 2011)

firefite said:


> Just make sure that you explain to your bishop why you want to wear the pants. Helping to save lifes, in my opinion, would be a good reason to let you just wear non form fitting pants.



Well, I could try to explain, but I have a feeling it wouldn't work. *sigh* if only it would


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## PotatoMedic (Jun 7, 2011)

Here is the classic verse (according to something) saying women should not wear pants.

“The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.”  Deuteronomy 22:5

Now I have never seen a depiction of someone wearing pants in the times that the bible was written.  So pants were never to be included in this verse.  Even if you say culturally pants are worn by men mainly in the past since their creation.  I would say culturally now pants no long "pertaineth unto a man."  Heck... Just by Women's pants.  Those soly pertaineth unto a woman.

Also as other have stated the clothing worn by men and women in the age that the bible was written were almost identical.  With some differences.

I say do what is right for you in regards to your work goals and your religious beliefs.  I feel that you will still show respect to God even if you wear pants on the job.  Just change back into a skirt after work.

Like I said before .  It is your choice.  Do what your comfortable with.  and in a way that will honor God and you'll be fine.


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## shfd739 (Jun 7, 2011)

I know that my service wouldn't allow the skirt. Based on the females I work with and our approved pants that they wear I don't see how they could be considered not modest. They aren't very flattering and sure aren't form fitting. it's not you'd be walking around in tights or daisy dukes.


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## JPINFV (Jun 7, 2011)

shfd739 said:


> daisy dukes.


[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn572zrAgHM[/YOUTUBE]


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## the_negro_puppy (Jun 7, 2011)

I didnt know there was such a prevalence of compulsory pants. We have shorts as part of our uniform, in fact I wore shorts today. We do so at our own peril, such as kneeling in amniotic fluid


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## crazycajun (Jun 7, 2011)

addictedforever said:


> I did say I would be wearing pants underneath my skirt. And I have climbed ladders and embankments with a skirt on. Trust me, I've done basically everything there is to do with a skirt on. I've done some extreme hiking, because I hunt. I'm used to it. But yes maybe God would forgive me for wearing pants.



OK. So you want to wear a skirt over pants!! WOW!!! Doesn't that defeat the purpose of any religious belief? I mean if you are wearing the pants already and if their is some scripture that says you must only wear skirts, are you not breaking the rules? (I am assuming this is religious as this is the only leg you have to stand on)


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## 18G (Jun 7, 2011)

Anjel1030 said:


> so... just saw the pic of you in your skirt and pants
> 
> and im sorry that looks fricken hilarious.
> 
> ...



Not to sound mean but I thought the same thing. It does look really, really, really bad and outright silly. It does not provide a good image at all for whatever department you would be working/volunteering for. 

And I have to agree with a few others who have said this as well. If your church's position and interpretation of scripture is that a woman should not wear male clothing, then how is it acceptable for you to wear pants underneath a skirt? Does the scripture only apply as long as you can't see the opposite genders clothing when they are being worn? Would a guy in your church be okay to wear womens underwear since they wouldn't be visible? It's really the same thing as wearing pants under the skirt. 

They make women's pants which make them specific to females. Guy's typically look kinda funny and obvious when wearing women's pants the same as they look funny if wearing a skirt. So they are distinctively different.


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## crazycajun (Jun 7, 2011)

OK I have just seen the picture. Now that I have stopped laughing let's get serious. The skirt you are wearing imposes a loose clothing hazard. It could easily be snagged in an MVC or caught in the stretcher. It could be caught in the stair chair and you and your patient will be tumbling down the stairs or embankment. I also have to question other clothing items against your beliefs. You stated that form fitting clothing is why you must wear the skirt but your shirt clearly indicates you have breast. Does this not violate the same rule?


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## addictedforever (Jun 7, 2011)

crazycajun said:


> OK I have just seen the picture. Now that I have stopped laughing let's get serious. The skirt you are wearing imposes a loose clothing hazard. It could easily be snagged in an MVC or caught in the stretcher. It could be caught in the stair chair and you and your patient will be tumbling down the stairs or embankment. I also have to question other clothing items against your beliefs. You stated that form fitting clothing is why you must wear the skirt but your shirt clearly indicates you have breast. Does this not violate the same rule?



I guess what I meant by formfitting is that it must not be tight. The shirt is loose, therefore it is okay. Alot of women's pants are tight, therefore form fitting.



18G said:


> Not to sound mean but I thought the same thing. It does look really, really, really bad and outright silly. It does not provide a good image at all for whatever department you would be working/volunteering for.
> 
> And I have to agree with a few others who have said this as well. If your church's position and interpretation of scripture is that a woman should not wear male clothing, then how is it acceptable for you to wear pants underneath a skirt? Does the scripture only apply as long as you can't see the opposite genders clothing when they are being worn? Would a guy in your church be okay to wear womens underwear since they wouldn't be visible? It's really the same thing as wearing pants under the skirt.
> 
> They make women's pants which make them specific to females. Guy's typically look kinda funny and obvious when wearing women's pants the same as they look funny if wearing a skirt. So they are distinctively different.



The pants I wear are girls' pants, not mens'. But I do find it interesting that everyone is assuming they are guys' pants. Okay, so what I'm gathering is that everyone thinks it's a bad idea and I should just wear the pants. So I'll be checking into that.



crazycajun said:


> OK. So you want to wear a skirt over pants!! WOW!!! Doesn't that defeat the purpose of any religious belief? I mean if you are wearing the pants already and if their is some scripture that says you must only wear skirts, are you not breaking the rules? (I am assuming this is religious as this is the only leg you have to stand on)



It is a religous/church thing. Personally I would not have a problem with just wearing the pants, but there are others whom I must consider. No, there is no scripture that says you must only wear skirts. It has to do with modesty more than anything, and what I've been hearing from all you wonderful people is that you consider just the EMS pants modest. So I will be checking into that.



shfd739 said:


> I know that my service wouldn't allow the skirt. Based on the females I work with and our approved pants that they wear I don't see how they could be considered not modest. They aren't very flattering and sure aren't form fitting. it's not you'd be walking around in tights or daisy dukes.



 Well, like I said, I'll be doing some research into that and see what I can come up with.


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## lampnyter (Jun 7, 2011)

May i ask what religion this is?


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## addictedforever (Jun 7, 2011)

lampnyter said:


> May i ask what religion this is?



Sure. It's Mennonite


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## JPINFV (Jun 7, 2011)

addictedforever said:


> It has to do with modesty more than anything, and what I've been hearing from all you wonderful people is that you consider just the EMS pants modest. So I will be checking into that.



Modesty is all relative. If the average idea of female modesty is a non-tight skirt, then any sort of pants can be considered immodest. If pants aren't defacto immodest then there's some line between MC Hammer pants and jeggings, and the question is, "Where is that line?"

On that note I saw my first pair of jeggins a few days ago and immediately needed mind bleach and a flame thrower.


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## akflightmedic (Jun 7, 2011)

While I am opposed to all religions, I do respect the Mennonites for two of their practices/beliefs.

1. They support separation of church and state.
2. They do adult baptisms as opposed to indoctrinating the young and forcing them into something which they were never asked. It has to be a willing adult decision which is cool.

And most Mennonite groups do not evangelize, a few schisms do; again more props to them!


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## addictedforever (Jun 7, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> Modesty is all relative. If the average idea of female modesty is a non-tight skirt, then any sort of pants can be considered immodest. If pants aren't defacto immodest then there's some line between MC Hammer pants and jeggings, and the question is, "Where is that line?"
> 
> On that note I saw my first pair of jeggins a few days ago and immediately needed mind bleach and a flame thrower.



Well, I think you about summed it up. You've stated the problem quite well. I salute you! Thank-you! 

As far as the second part, why do you think we choose non-tight, longish skirts?


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## JPINFV (Jun 7, 2011)

addictedforever said:


> Well, I think you about summed it up. You've stated the problem quite well. I salute you! Thank-you!
> 
> As far as the second part, why do you think we choose non-tight, longish skirts?




...because God gave every man 2 heads, but only enough blood to run one at a time, and women in Ancient times allowed us to blame that on them?


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## addictedforever (Jun 7, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> ...because God gave every man 2 heads, but only enough blood to run one at a time, and women in Ancient times allowed us to blame that on them?



Exactly, and believe it or not, there are still a few women who feel responsible for such things.


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## lampnyter (Jun 7, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> God gave every man 2 heads, but only enough blood to run one at a time



If i was still in high school that would be my senior quote. Im stealing that from you.


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## Anjel (Jun 7, 2011)

lampnyter said:


> If i was still in high school that would be my senior quote. Im stealing that from you.



Thats ok he stole that from robin williams lol


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## Aerin-Sol (Jun 7, 2011)

There was a brother and sister at my job with similar beliefs. They both wore the uniform pants. The brother told several women he worked with that they'd be going to hell for wearing pants -- I wonder what their family dinners were like. 




addictedforever said:


> I agree you probably would look pretty silly wearing women's jeans. As far as a loophole, I don't know. Maybe it is. And I'm pretty sure I could not get an exception for this, unfortunately. I would be okay with wearing just pants for the job. I'll have to do more checking.



Are you following your personal religious beliefs or your parents'/pastor's rules? Why do you need to get permission from an outside authority to do this instead of considering what your deity wants?




addictedforever said:


> You sure you want me to answer this? I'll give you a short version. Pants alone are not felt to be modest since they are generally more formfitting. A skirt in this line of work as has been pointed out may not be modest either, therefore you pair them together, and theoretically you have modesty and safety and compliance with OSHA.



I have yet to find a pair of EMT pants that are form-fitting. They're all very, very baggy and made of thick material. Then again, my service didn't have male/female uniforms -- we all got the same type of cargo-style pants.

Where's the picture? I want to see it!


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## BEorP (Jun 7, 2011)

I used to work in an area where we served a large Mennonite population and I completely respect your beliefs. I realise that it is challenging for you to find the right balance in this. As other posters have pointed out, I would be worried that having a skirt on while out on calls could get caught on things and cause a potential hazard for you, especially when lifting a moving patients. If you ever ended up getting attacked by a patient, it seems as though it would give them more things to grab onto as well.

This may seem even more strange, but I'll throw it out there as a suggestion anyway. Depending on where you work, it is quite possible that most of your time will be spent at the station and not out on calls (if not then there isn't any way this suggestion will be useful). If that is the case, maybe you could wear your skirt over your uniform pants while at the station and remove it when it's time to head out on a call (might need to do some skirt modifications to allow for quick removal as you walk out to the truck, but I'm sure it is possible). Maybe this would help to satisfy your church leaders that you're keeping it on as much as is practical.

Best of luck!


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## samiam (Jun 7, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> (Can any Jews on here honestly explain how things like, "We can't use elevators because the spark that may be generated when we push the button, but if the elevator is automatically stopping at every floor, we can use it," or the entire concept of the "eruv?" .



Cant quote the exact place/passage but the torah states that we cannot light or extinguish fires on the sabbath (only one of the prohibited things) so pushing the button on the elevator/flipping on a light switch etc is synonymous to the lighting/extinguishing of a fire... Not sure if it specifically states this but it is interpreted that a fire can be built before the sabbath and then fed thru the sabbath to keep it going just as an elevator can be going thru the sabbath as long as you don't initiate it on the sabbath. It is also fine if someone else pushes the button for you.  None of these rules apply in emergencies/life threatening circumstances. If you see someone dying in the street you are morally obligated to call for help on the sabbath even though it is in violation of the no work rules.


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## addictedforever (Jun 7, 2011)

Aerin-Sol said:


> Are you following your personal religious beliefs or your parents'/pastor's rules? Why do you need to get permission from an outside authority to do this instead of considering what your deity wants?
> 
> I have yet to find a pair of EMT pants that are form-fitting. They're all very, very baggy and made of thick material. Then again, my service didn't have male/female uniforms -- we all got the same type of cargo-style pants.
> 
> Where's the picture? I want to see it!



I would need permission from an outside authority because I am a member of the church and expected to follow what they ask besides my personal beliefs.

Well, the one woman EMT who I know has EMS pants that are quite form-fitting, to the point it is disturbing.

The picture is my profile picture. You can check it out.




BEorP said:


> I used to work in an area where we served a large Mennonite population and I completely respect your beliefs. I realise that it is challenging for you to find the right balance in this. As other posters have pointed out, I would be worried that having a skirt on while out on calls could get caught on things and cause a potential hazard for you, especially when lifting a moving patients. If you ever ended up getting attacked by a patient, it seems as though it would give them more things to grab onto as well.
> 
> This may seem even more strange, but I'll throw it out there as a suggestion anyway. Depending on where you work, it is quite possible that most of your time will be spent at the station and not out on calls (if not then there isn't any way this suggestion will be useful). If that is the case, maybe you could wear your skirt over your uniform pants while at the station and remove it when it's time to head out on a call (might need to do some skirt modifications to allow for quick removal as you walk out to the truck, but I'm sure it is possible). Maybe this would help to satisfy your church leaders that you're keeping it on as much as is practical.
> 
> Best of luck!



And as far as it giving patients somthing to grab onto...there's also a plus side to it. They could grab on, but because I wear pants, I could slip out of it therefore quickly getting away. I've already had to do that once.

Hmmm...a most interesting suggestion. I would probably be spending a lot of time at the station most shifts. Maybe I could check into that as well.


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## abckidsmom (Jun 7, 2011)

addictedforever said:


> The picture is my profile picture. You can check it out.



Link?


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## addictedforever (Jun 7, 2011)

abckidsmom said:


> Link?



Try clicking on my user name. I've uploaded it.


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## subliminal1284 (Jun 7, 2011)

addicted I can relate as my family used to be deeply involved in a religion that was similar to menonites atleast when it came to the way they dressed. With that said I think the bottom line is you are going to have an extremely tough time finding a department or company that is going to be willing to work with your beliefs. 

Let me ask you this. Are these your beliefs also or are you mainly doing because you are worried about what your family or church community might say? If so the best advice I can give you is follow your own beliefs.


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## addictedforever (Jun 7, 2011)

subliminal1284 said:


> addicted I can relate as my family used to be deeply involved in a religion that was similar to menonites atleast when it came to the way they dressed. With that said I think the bottom line is you are going to have an extremely tough time finding a department or company that is going to be willing to work with your beliefs.
> 
> Let me ask you this. Are these your beliefs also or are you mainly doing because you are worried about what your family or church community might say? If so the best advice I can give you is follow your own beliefs.



It's not a problem finding a department. I've found one already. The problem is finding the training. 

And I think I'm still figuring it all out for myself right now. I'm asking myself the same questions right now.


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## JPINFV (Jun 7, 2011)

samiam said:


> Cant quote the exact place/passage but the torah states that we cannot light or extinguish fires on the sabbath (only one of the prohibited things) so pushing the button on the elevator/flipping on a light switch etc is synonymous to the lighting/extinguishing of a fire... Not sure if it specifically states this but it is interpreted that a fire can be built before the sabbath and then fed thru the sabbath to keep it going just as an elevator can be going thru the sabbath as long as you don't initiate it on the sabbath. It is also fine if someone else pushes the button for you.  None of these rules apply in emergencies/life threatening circumstances. If you see someone dying in the street you are morally obligated to call for help on the sabbath even though it is in violation of the no work rules.




My problem is that I find it a very fine line between making the spark yourself vs having someone else make it for you? Which is more important, the act itself or the underlying intent?


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## 4x4kayak2112 (Jun 7, 2011)

i would say not to....becuase if your rear end gets seen.....other might have "medical promblems" plus i just cant see a medic in a skirt or dress while climing up into a car to hold c spine.


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## emt-mike (Jun 7, 2011)

before replying people should read the thread, so that they know where the conversation is, instead of repeating the same sentiments

UPDATE 
she will wear pants underneath the skirt
she already has a job secured she just needs to find someplace to get trained as an EMT


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## JPINFV (Jun 7, 2011)

4x4kayak2112 said:


> i would say not to....becuase if your rear end gets seen.....other might have "medical promblems"




Want to know how I know you haven't read this thread?


Edit: And... props to EMT-Mike for sniping my post...


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## crazycajun (Jun 7, 2011)

addictedforever said:


> It is a religious/church thing. Personally I would not have a problem with just wearing the pants, but there are others whom I must consider. No, there is no scripture that says you must only wear skirts. It has to do with modesty more than anything, and what I've been hearing from all you wonderful people is that you consider just the EMS pants modest. So I will be checking into that.
> QUOTE]
> 
> I guess this is why I am so confused. If it is not written in scripture then it is not God's word or belief. The question then arises to whom do you worship God or the people in the church? Remember if you believe that judgment day will come to you the only one you will answer to is God.


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## abckidsmom (Jun 7, 2011)

crazycajun said:


> I guess this is why I am so confused. If it is not written in scripture then it is not God's word or belief. The question then arises to whom do you worship God or the people in the church? Remember if you believe that judgment day will come to you the only one you will answer to is God.



It can be really hard to buck a conservative church like this.  I went to nursing school with a Mennonite girl who had to stand in front of her church and say for all time that she had no interest in marriage or children in order for the elders to allow her to go to nursing school.  She wasn't allowed to work as an income-earning nurse after graduation because then she wouldn't be "covered" by her father any more.  She ended up being a missionary nurse in Belize.

All that to say, the social pressure is strong, and hard to buck, even if you do believe it is only God that you'll be facing on the day of judgement.


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## samiam (Jun 7, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> My problem is that I find it a very fine line between making the spark yourself vs having someone else make it for you? Which is more important, the act itself or the underlying intent?



http://www.teshuvah.com/articles/shabbat/sabbath1.htm

Have a look at this.... under requirements. I am reformed so personally I do not follow this so I can only give basic input. MY interpretation  is that it is ok to have someone else do something for you as long as they are not in your home..not a employee/servant .. children spouses etc... I know for sure that some orthodox Jews will have others drive them somewhere is absolutely necesscary.


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## 18G (Jun 7, 2011)

Religion is crazy which is why I do not practice one. 

I believe in Jesus Christ and his laws and ways are what I try to practice. Man made religious rules and laws mean nothing to me. It's what JC expects and what you as an individual believe to be right. 

As already said, in the end you answer for who you follow and what you do. Allowing someone else to alter your life and dreams is a bit much.


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## EMSrush (Jun 7, 2011)

FireWA1 said:


> The chief offered to have a "turnout skirt" made but I think she declined.



Seriously??? LOL!


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## addictedforever (Jun 8, 2011)

crazycajun said:


> I guess this is why I am so confused. If it is not written in scripture then it is not God's word or belief. The question then arises to whom do you worship God or the people in the church? Remember if you believe that judgment day will come to you the only one you will answer to is God.



I know, but the church is under the authority of God. It's sorta like the reason you don't just go and ignore all the laws of the land. No, I wouldn't get thrown in jail if I went against my church, but it would take some serious doing on my part to do that.



abckidsmom said:


> It can be really hard to buck a conservative church like this.  I went to nursing school with a Mennonite girl who had to stand in front of her church and say for all time that she had no interest in marriage or children in order for the elders to allow her to go to nursing school.  She wasn't allowed to work as an income-earning nurse after graduation because then she wouldn't be "covered" by her father any more.  She ended up being a missionary nurse in Belize.
> 
> All that to say, the social pressure is strong, and hard to buck, even if you do believe it is only God that you'll be facing on the day of judgement.



Okay, that's intense about that girl! We have several people in nursing school currently and our church does not have a problem with it. Then again they don't have to wear pants for that. And my parents are supportive of my dreams, it's just my church.


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## Nerd13 (Jun 8, 2011)

In reference to the form fitting pants I don't think you'll have a problem. I wear Elbeco women's EMS pants and they aren't form fitting at all. Everybody is shaped differently but I think if you tried some different brands on you would have no trouble finding some that are suitably loose for your needs. I'm having a hard time understanding why you're having such a hard time finding somewhere to do training. Here the training is completely unrelated to where you're going to work so they don't really care. The only foreseeable problem I can imagine would be clinical dress uniform and I would think that you could get out of that being a problem by simply stating that it's a religious belief. I'd keep trying to find different agencies to train at until you can find one that will work with you. If all else fails check into online programs! Not the most ideal way to go about it but given your circumstances it's better than nothing.


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## Sasha (Jun 8, 2011)

> Man made religious rules and laws mean nothing to me.




Dude all religious laws/rules are man made.


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## HotelCo (Jun 8, 2011)

Sasha said:


> Dude all religious laws/rules are man made.



Just like all religions. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HotelCo (Jun 8, 2011)

addictedforever said:


> I know, but the church is under the authority of God. It's sorta like the reason you don't just go and ignore all the laws of the land. No, I wouldn't get thrown in jail if I went against my church, but it would take some serious doing on my part to do that.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, that's intense about that girl! We have several people in nursing school currently and our church does not have a problem with it. Then again they don't have to wear pants for that. And my parents are supportive of my dreams, it's just my church.



Find a different church. 

Personally, I'm a member of The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. 

http://www.venganza.org/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## addictedforever (Jun 8, 2011)

Nerd13 said:


> In reference to the form fitting pants I don't think you'll have a problem. I wear Elbeco women's EMS pants and they aren't form fitting at all. Everybody is shaped differently but I think if you tried some different brands on you would have no trouble finding some that are suitably loose for your needs. I'm having a hard time understanding why you're having such a hard time finding somewhere to do training. Here the training is completely unrelated to where you're going to work so they don't really care. The only foreseeable problem I can imagine would be clinical dress uniform and I would think that you could get out of that being a problem by simply stating that it's a religious belief. I'd keep trying to find different agencies to train at until you can find one that will work with you. If all else fails check into online programs! Not the most ideal way to go about it but given your circumstances it's better than nothing.



Hey thanks for the tip on a brand to check out! It was an issue with the clinical dress, and I told them, but they still had issues. Not sure why, but that's what they said. I don't really want to do it online, but I might if I can find a reputable place.


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## Nerd13 (Jun 8, 2011)

addictedforever said:


> Hey thanks for the tip on a brand to check out! It was an issue with the clinical dress, and I told them, but they still had issues. Not sure why, but that's what they said. I don't really want to do it online, but I might if I can find a reputable place.



Just keep trying. You've had a lot of hurdles and you managed to get the hardest one (somewhere to actually work) out of the way. Eventually you'll find somewhere to train, just don't give up on it!


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## addictedforever (Jun 8, 2011)

Nerd13 said:


> Just keep trying. You've had a lot of hurdles and you managed to get the hardest one (somewhere to actually work) out of the way. Eventually you'll find somewhere to train, just don't give up on it!



Thanks Nerd!  I'm not giving up!


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## phideux (Jun 9, 2011)

Do you really think God cares what clothes you wear? Or are you just trying to conform to your current pastors interpretation of a passage that has been interpreted and re-interpreted repeatedly over the centuries? 
All the companies I have seen have uniform standards, and I don't see that skirt/pants thing flying, plus it just looks ridiculous/unprofessional. If you are going to join a service that is already in place you need to conform to their uniform standards. Not try to make them conform to yours.


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## rwik123 (Jun 9, 2011)

phideux said:


> Do you really think God cares what clothes you wear? Or are you just trying to conform to your current pastors interpretation of a passage that has been interpreted and re-interpreted repeatedly over the centuries?
> All the companies I have seen have uniform standards, and I don't see that skirt/pants thing flying, plus it just looks ridiculous/unprofessional. If you are going to join a service that is already in place you need to conform to their uniform standards. Not try to make them conform to yours.



Let's not go on any personal attacks on people's choices. She's already explained that it's more of a modesty choice than it being "god's will"


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## addictedforever (Jun 9, 2011)

phideux said:


> Do you really think God cares what clothes you wear? Or are you just trying to conform to your current pastors interpretation of a passage that has been interpreted and re-interpreted repeatedly over the centuries?
> All the companies I have seen have uniform standards, and I don't see that skirt/pants thing flying, plus it just looks ridiculous/unprofessional. If you are going to join a service that is already in place you need to conform to their uniform standards. Not try to make them conform to yours.



Apparently, my chief doesn't agree with you on it looking unprofessional, since he approved the uniform.



rwik123 said:


> Let's not go on any personal attacks on people's choices. She's already explained that it's more of a modesty choice than it being "god's will"



Thank-you rwik, at least someone's been paying attention.


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## phideux (Jun 9, 2011)

It wasn't my intention to make it personal, sorry if it came off that way.:blush:


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## addictedforever (Jun 9, 2011)

phideux said:


> It wasn't my intention to make it personal, sorry if it came off that way.:blush:



No offense taken.  It's all good.


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## 18G (Jun 9, 2011)

phideux said:


> Do you really think God cares what clothes you wear? Or are you just trying to conform to your current pastors interpretation of a passage that has been interpreted and re-interpreted repeatedly over the centuries?
> All the companies I have seen have uniform standards, and I don't see that skirt/pants thing flying, plus it just looks ridiculous/unprofessional. If you are going to join a service that is already in place you need to conform to their uniform standards. Not try to make them conform to yours.



I completely agree with the above. Addicted already said previously that her own belief's did not exclude the wearing of pants. She is trying to conform with her church. 

Addicted... you found one department willing to make an exception but what about others down the road? Do you want to make a career out of EMS or just a hobby? If you want to do this as a career you will be severely limited if not excluded from ever having a decent paying job. I don't foresee any county or hospital based service hiring someone who cannot dress to the uniform standard. 

I do feel bad for you that you are put in this position unnecessarily.


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## addictedforever (Jun 9, 2011)

18G said:


> Addicted... you found one department willing to make an exception but what about others down the road? Do you want to make a career out of EMS or just a hobby? If you want to do this as a career you will be severely limited if not excluded from ever having a decent paying job. I don't foresee any county or hospital based service hiring someone who cannot dress to the uniform standard.
> 
> I do feel bad for you that you are put in this position unnecessarily.



Some good questions, 18G, things I have to consider personally before making a final decision. 
It's interesting tho' that on here, is where I've met with the most resistance to the idea. Most other EMT's/paramedics that I've asked face to face say they'd have no problem with it, as long as I can perform safely. And I've asked multiple ones from multiple companies and states.


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## 18G (Jun 9, 2011)

Sometimes people won't always be 100% honest with their opinion face-to-face.

You look young so now is the time to do your soul searching and decide what is right for you in your life. Is that making others happy (as in your church) or making yourself happy while still maintaining the same level of faith?


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## bigbaldguy (Jun 9, 2011)

Negative? Medics? Never. lol the current political climate aside most places allow for legitimate expression of religious beliefs and in most cases the law protects it. If you want to wear a dress over your pants and you can justify it they don't have a legal leg to stand on. I can't see a chief standing in front of a jury and explaining that the reason they didn't hire you is that wearing a dress over your pants looks "silly" and thats basically what all these arguments boil down to. It doesn't sound like you're the type but I'm sure if you mentioned the "lawyer" word all of this resistance would suddenly evaporate. This is exactly the kind of case a civil rights lawyer loves.


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## addictedforever (Jun 9, 2011)

bigbaldguy said:


> Negative? Medics? Never. lol the current political climate aside most places allow for legitimate expression of religious beliefs and in most cases the law protects it. If you want to wear a dress over your pants and you can justify it they don't have a legal leg to stand on. I can't see a chief standing in front of a jury and explaining that the reason they didn't hire you is that wearing a dress over your pants looks "silly" and thats basically what all these arguments boil down to. It doesn't sound like you're the type but I'm sure if you mentioned the "lawyer" word all of this resistance would suddenly evaporate. This is exactly the kind of case a civil rights lawyer loves.



You mean all outward resistance might evaporate. I'd bet anything they'd still be resistant inside. Can you imagine trying to work with a partner who is stuck with me because I threatened him? I don't think so. I don't see that being real good for relating with my partner(s). 



18G said:


> Sometimes people won't always be 100% honest with their opinion face-to-face.
> 
> You look young so now is the time to do your soul searching and decide what is right for you in your life. Is that making others happy (as in your church) or making yourself happy while still maintaining the same level of faith?



Thank-you, 18G, I will be doing some more thinking considering all that has been said on here.


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## bigbaldguy (Jun 9, 2011)

addictedforever said:


> You mean all outward resistance might evaporate. I'd bet anything they'd still be resistant inside. Can you imagine trying to work with a partner who is stuck with me because I threatened him? I don't think so. I don't see that being real good for relating with my partner(s).



Like I said I don't think you're the type to sue. Nonetheless I have seen far more trivial things fought over by lawyers. This is a matter of your beliefs and when you take everything else away from us all we have left are those beliefs.


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## working in a skirt (Feb 2, 2014)

*Skirts in EMS*

I have worked in EMS since 2010 and as a professing Christian I have always worn skirts.  I do wear pants underneath (duh)

This has never been an issue and has never interfered with performing quality patient care.

I think If someone who was not used to wearing a skirt put one on it could be dangerous because they are not used to it.

Hello folks, 60 years ago all women wore skirts.  The women who were pioneers in this country wore skirts and they did more work and work that was as dangerous as EMS.  My co workers respect my religious beliefs.


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## Handsome Robb (Feb 2, 2014)

Uniform codes exist for a reason. We operate in hazardous environments sometimes being around large machinery with snag risks.

A skirt is a safety hazard even over pants and has no place in EMS. 

Sorry, that's my opinion. You can like it or not but fact of the matter is I'm tired of seeing articles about injuries or deaths in the line of duty, our job already has hazards why create more for ourselves?


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## DesertMedic66 (Feb 2, 2014)

Robb said:


> Uniform codes exist for a reason. We operate in hazardous environments sometimes being around large machinery with snag risks.
> 
> A skirt is a safety hazard even over pants and has no place in EMS.
> 
> Sorry, that's my opinion. You can like it or not but fact of the matter is I'm tired of seeing articles about injuries or deaths in the line of duty, our job already has hazards why create more for ourselves?



This is my opinion also.


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## TheLocalMedic (Feb 2, 2014)

Interesting thread brought back from the dead.  

Here's the problem that I have with the whole skirt debate: It is a religious expression, and there is very little room for that in the public safety setting, especially if it may affect work performance.  

The purpose of a uniform is to make the workforce look, well, _uniform_.  While there is wiggle room for headwear, but even facial hair is restricted.  Tattoos must generally be covered, and jewelry aside from small studs is usually not allowed.  So I can see why there is a lot of resistance to allow skirts as well.


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## SarahMax (Dec 11, 2017)

Hi, all.  Maybe you can help me.  I found this website through Google.  I am a paralegal and an EMT came to the lawyer I work for with this issue.  She wasn't hired because she wants to wear a skirt.  She was willing to wear pants and have a matching skirt made to wear over it.  No luck.  She did work in another state and wore a skirt with no problem.  Have any of you heard anything since the last post in 2014 about this issue?


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## CALEMT (Dec 11, 2017)

@DesertMedic66 wears a skirt all the time to work and his side gig.


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## DrParasite (Dec 12, 2017)

1) I'm pretty sure it's against the rules to get any type of legal advice on these forums.... but I'll let one of the admins make a formal ruling

2) The question really boils down to her personal desires and the agency's uniform policy.  What one agency will allow does not guarantee another agency will allow, especially in another state, nor should it.

3) I have heard of agencies making religious accommodations for certain non-standard attire (headcovers for Siks, Kippahs for Jews,etc).  However, I believe that was done at the discretion of the agency, not a mandate from the law.

4) One of the criteria for most public safety agencies is to wear a uniform, as specified by the employer.  While the employee MAY ask for a waiver, the employer is under no obligation to grant the waiver; after all, wearing the approved uniform is a requirement of the job.

If the EMT in question refuses to wear the approved uniform, as stated in the job descriptions, than that sounds like a good reason for the employer not to hire her.  But that might not be the answer she wants to hear, which is why she walked into your office.. 

But I'm not lawyer, so I would suggest one of your attorneys consult a subject matter expert on this issue.


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## DrParasite (Dec 13, 2017)

I think the question is also, WHY does she want to wear the skirt?  is it for personal comfort, or religious reasons?  

https://www.ems1.com/ems-management...-paramedic-sues-hospital-for-no-skirt-policy/

The military has changed their uniform polities for religious reasons (although I think many of these changes were in response to lawsuits)

http://taskandpurpose.com/army-grants-religious-exemptions-beards-turbans-hijabs/

And who can forget that DC firefighters can wear beards

https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...575-9fff-c32917dcf195/?utm_term=.f57b57a74693


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## EpiEMS (Dec 13, 2017)

DrParasite said:


> And who can forget that DC firefighters can wear beards


Wait, what? 
How does their SCBA work effectively if they have a beard?


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## DesertMedic66 (Dec 13, 2017)

EpiEMS said:


> Wait, what?
> How does their SCBA work effectively if they have a beard?


Their religion protects them from the dangers of not having a properly fitting SCBA....


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## akflightmedic (Dec 13, 2017)

And you are making the assumption that there are fires these days which require one....and the assumption that they perform an interior attack.

(could not resist)


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## DesertMedic66 (Dec 13, 2017)

akflightmedic said:


> And you are making the assumption that there are fires these days which require one....and the assumption that they perform an interior attack.
> 
> (could not resist)


I know there are many departments in CA who do interior on the vast majority of fires.


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## DrParasite (Dec 13, 2017)

akflightmedic said:


> And you are making the assumption that there are fires these days which require one....and the assumption that they perform an interior attack.
> 
> (could not resist)


I can assure you, for all the issues that DC FEMS has on the EMS side, their FD is quite busy with actual fires, aggressive, and goes inside the building to put the fires out on the majority of their fires (when it's possible to do so).

What I don't understand is every applicant knew the rules when they applied (mandatory uniform, clean shaven, etc), and still applied for the position.  Now that they are hired, they feel that they should be exempt from the rules that they agreed to follow? 

I understand the religious wavers to an extent; but at the end of the day, they knew what was expected of them before they applied.  If you can't meet these requirements (for whatever reason, religious or otherwise), than maybe this job isn't for you?

I'm all for asking to change the rules; If a bunch of Siks want to join the military, before they join, why not ask if the army will change the rules for them?  if the answer is yes, here is the application, if not, than it might not be the job for you.

Disclaimer: I have many Jewish family members, including orthodox females who never wear pants.  But they also don't work on Saturdays or Friday nights; so I wonder if they can get a job doing shift work, accept the position, and then demand (because it's not asking if it's backed up with a lawsuit) from their employer an accommodation that says they never have to work late on Friday or on Saturday...


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## EpiEMS (Dec 13, 2017)

akflightmedic said:


> And you are making the assumption that there are fires these days which require one....and the assumption that they perform an interior attack.
> 
> (could not resist)



Hey, fair point given the data! 



DrParasite said:


> I have many Jewish family members, including orthodox females who never wear pants. But they also don't work on Saturdays or Friday nights; so I wonder if they can get a job doing shift work, accept the position, and then demand (because it's not asking if it's backed up with a lawsuit) from their employer an accommodation that says they never have to work late on Friday or on Saturday...



Not sure if they can "demand" that, but I doubt their colleagues are unhappy to have people around to work Sundays, Christmas, etc...

You know, that reminds me. Ezras Nashim members probably don't wear pants either.



DrParasite said:


> I'm all for asking to change the rules; If a bunch of Siks want to join the military, before they join, why not ask if the army will change the rules for them? if the answer is yes, here is the application, if not, than it might not be the job for you.



Yeah, seems reasonable - but we're talking about requirements that aren't necessarily pertinent to the job, right?


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## DrParasite (Dec 13, 2017)

EpiEMS said:


> Not sure if they can "demand" that, but I doubt their colleagues are unhappy to have people around to work Sundays, Christmas, etc...


When you ask for something and then back up it up with a lawsuit, it's a demand.  It will be up to the courts to decide what is allowed.

And true story, when I was working full time in EMS, I asked for a few days off and was given a few days vacation for days that were clearly listed as religious holidays (my religion was known to my coworkers).  I didn't ask for any special treatment, and typically this was only 3 times a year, but some of my coworkers asked how I was able to get stuff when they weren't.  The question about Christmas was brought up, but no one ever pursued it.  I would be curious to see what happens, if you demand a religious accommodation to be off on Christmas, and followed it up with a lawsuit for infringing on your religious beliefs.


EpiEMS said:


> You know, that reminds me. Ezras Nashim members probably don't wear pants either.


probably not, however, it's also irrelevant to the topic; I can work on an ambulance wearing a SCUBA wetsuit, but that doesn't mean I should be permitted to if violates a requirement of the job (in this case, an agency mandated uniform).  





EpiEMS said:


> Yeah, seems reasonable - but we're talking about requirements that aren't necessarily pertinent to the job, right?


Sure.  But following that line of thinking, why should I not be allowed to go to work on the ambulance in a T shirt and jeans?  it's not pertinent to the job.  Why even have a uniform policy? 

When I worked at the hospital, we had a fingernail and clean shaven face policy; you had to keep your nails short to prevent infections, and clean shaven because you have to pass a n95 fit test.  I was in communication... explain to me how I am going to catch cooties from a patient or TB over the phone?  but the rules applied to everyone, and i knew that was a condition of employment when I accepted the position.  Is this situation different?


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## akflightmedic (Dec 13, 2017)

Geeze...sarcasm...a joke....one person responded appropriately. The rest need an enema.


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## EpiEMS (Dec 13, 2017)

DrParasite said:


> When you ask for something and then back up it up with a lawsuit, it's a demand. It will be up to the courts to decide what is allowed.



Very true.



DrParasite said:


> I didn't ask for any special treatment, and typically this was only 3 times a year, but some of my coworkers asked how I was able to get stuff when they weren't.



In a way, being able to be off for Xmas on the rationale that it is Xmas is special treatment - I don't see a difference, myself.



DrParasite said:


> it's not pertinent to the job. Why even have a uniform policy?



I see where you're going with this, but I'm talking about a modification to a policy, not a wholesale abrogation.


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## KnightRider (Jan 5, 2018)

Wouldnt fly here. We are "uniform" for a reason. As previously mentioned, skirts/dresses on this job are not safe. There was recently a female of Somali/Muslim background who entered the city police academy. While in the academy, she demanded she be allowed to wear her hijab. The city told her it is not safe and is not part of the police uniform. She cried foul and ultimately dropped out of the academy.


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## DrParasite (Jan 5, 2018)

KnightRider said:


> While in the academy, she demanded she be allowed to wear her hijab. The city told her it is not safe and is not part of the police uniform. She cried foul and ultimately dropped out of the academy.


Interesting.... I hope she files a lawsuit against them, because apparently it happens at other places both inside the US and outside.....


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## KnightRider (Jan 5, 2018)

DrParasite said:


> Interesting.... I hope she files a lawsuit against them, because apparently it happens at other places both inside the US and outside.....



Sue for what? That is the uniform standard at this PD and there is nothing that says the department has to change their standards because other agencies have.


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## jryan06 (Jan 5, 2018)

I just re read the Original post several times     My ,question is this; Why are instructors for an EMT-B program giving the OP grief about taking the class?  When I took my class there was no uniform requirements to sit in a chair and take notes.  I am confused with the direction of the thread. Does the OP have her EMT-B already? If she doesn't have it yet, who cares if she wears dresses to class.


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## TransportJockey (Jan 5, 2018)

jryan06 said:


> I just re read the Original post several times     My ,question is this; Why are instructors for an EMT-B program giving the OP grief about taking the class?  When I took my class there was no uniform requirements to sit in a chair and take notes.  I am confused with the direction of the thread. Does the OP have her EMT-B already? If she doesn't have it yet, who cares if she wears dresses to class.


There are plenty of programs out there thatrequire students to wear a uniform to class. Both at the basic and medic levels


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## KnightRider (Jan 6, 2018)

My EMT class had a uniform requirement as well. You had to buy the school's polo shirt and wear EMS pants and black boots. If you were affiliated with an FD like I was, you had to wear department polo or button-down shirt (no t-shirts).


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## phideux (Jan 8, 2018)

This country is becoming too politically correct, the ways and beliefs of the masses have to bend to the ways and beliefs of the minorities, we need to have special rules and regulations on what folks can wear that doesn't conform to uniform policies. People that get a job in an industry that serves alcohol or certain foods then sues that industry for serving alcohol or certain foods. Who can bake a cake for who without offending anyone. Jesus F Christ, where does it end nowadays. You want to work in an industry that requires a certain uniform standard?? You conform to that standard or find another job, don't expect that industry to conform to your standards or sue when they don't.

Say you are a Muslim and want to work in your Skirt and headgear, you want everyone to be tolerant to your wishes right?? Fine, no problem, you can wear your stuff to the job when your local Mosque allows the gay couple to eat pork chops on Ramadan at your Mosque. Tolerance is a 2 way street.


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