# Self protection question



## TropicalJosiah (Nov 28, 2008)

Might have been asked before but I couldn't find anything specific. How many of you carry protection (ASP, Baton, etc) and/or wear protection (BP Vests, etc)?

Would be location specific for sure, but non the less for those in higher crime areas.


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## Onceamedic (Nov 28, 2008)

I carry empty hands.


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## marineman (Nov 28, 2008)

Our treatment protocols call for 200cc of clipboard administration to combative patients. I've never seen a medic in my area carry or wear any protection but I think it could depend on what type of area you work in.


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## RailFan77 (Nov 28, 2008)

For those who still carry radios....don't forget a good dose of Motorola Therapy.


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## NolaRabbit (Nov 28, 2008)

I work in the crime capital of the country (it's official!) and I don't carry anything beyond my radio and scissors.


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## Scout (Nov 28, 2008)

Maglite, o ya.

My favorite is this big grey thing that weights about an kilo and a half, bestr weapon for self defence


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## MagicTyler (Nov 28, 2008)

I have a stab resistant vest, but I've never worn it on an ambulance. Only on rides with LEO.


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## KEVD18 (Nov 28, 2008)

pm a member here by the name of dt4ems(or read any of his posts reagrding self defens in ems). we arent afforded the same level of authority to defend ourselves from harm as even the average citizen. you go and do something stupid like hit a patient with your clipboard or a sap/baton and your going to find yourself in hot water.

if your concerned about your safety, you need to learn how to properly manage the situation(read a defensive tactics course/martial arts training). blunt object discipline is funny to joke about, but when they're garshing your paychecks for the rest of your life to pay a multi million dollar judgement against you/your company/dept it becomes significantly less funny. 

i have a vest that i bought when i transferred to an overnight truck. at that time, the service i was working for was doing a lot of city 911 calls(read: a lot for a private with a semi formal mutaul aid agreement with the municiapl 911 provider). i bought it after a really ugly call me and my partner found ourselves in the middle of in the projects. i think i've worn it twice sine then(over two years ago). if i was working full time urban 911 doing real, right in the middle of it calls, i might wear it every day.


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## firecoins (Nov 28, 2008)

MagicTyler said:


> I have a stab resistant vest, but I've never worn it on an ambulance. Only on rides with LEO.



you worried the LEO will stab you?  

I carry Trojans for protection.


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## MagicTyler (Nov 28, 2008)

firecoins said:


> you worried the LEO will stab you?
> 
> I carry Trojans for protection.




Its mainly for when going into the jail... I've been on A LOT of ride alongs... 

Remember trojans are only 98% Effective!!!!


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## SpudCrushr (Nov 28, 2008)

I think a vest is overkill. I mean, that's going to be super hot in the summer when you're working.. But it really depends on where you run.


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## TropicalJosiah (Nov 29, 2008)

Cops wear vest 100% of the time without issue. 

Was just curious to see what people on here are doing. Working in south LA vs a "normal" town of course is different.

You got a shoot out in Toys R Us today with 2 people dead. Toys R Us... who packs heat to go toy shopping? Figure you can expand on those two to include a larger mount % wise.

Hard for people to have weapons in water situation. But in the EMT training it's been multiple times re-iterated that safety is first for the crew AND entering dangerous situations is common. Not counting PT's that may be high on PCP, enraged, etc 
As a lifegaurd we were trained in how to knock a person out, struggling people in the water will take someone down with them. On the street it's new to me, so just throwing the feelers out there.


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## crayzeeemt (Nov 29, 2008)

*response*

I have a level IIa threat vest, knife, and a big flashlight.  I will use those two if I feel I need to.  Forget my job, we wanna go home at the end of the night.


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## BossyCow (Nov 29, 2008)

Best protection is common sense. Making sure scene safe is really scene safe. To paraphrase the old catholic baltimore catichism... to avoid the near occasion of danger


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## Grady_emt (Nov 29, 2008)

TropicalJosiah said:


> You got a shoot out in Toys R Us today with 2 people dead. Toys R Us... who packs heat to go toy shopping? Figure you can expand on those two to include a larger mount % wise.



I carry a Glock G38 .45GAP for this exact reason.  You give me a chance to defend myself and I will, It's my Constitutional right to, but that's not what the OP is posting about.


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## imurphy (Nov 29, 2008)

The guys in my station make fun of me, but at least I'm protected. I don't think it's overkill.....


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## marineman (Nov 29, 2008)

TropicalJosiah said:


> As a lifegaurd we were trained in how to knock a person out, struggling people in the water will take someone down with them. On the street it's new to me, so just throwing the feelers out there.



As a former lifeguard there's no need to knock a struggling swimmer out. Their only goal is to keep their head above water even if it means putting you under. When that happens you intentionally swim underwater and get away, they won't willingly follow you under water. Work on your blocks and escapes and you'll be fine.


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## TropicalJosiah (Nov 29, 2008)

marineman said:


> As a former lifeguard there's no need to knock a struggling swimmer out. Their only goal is to keep their head above water even if it means putting you under. When that happens you intentionally swim underwater and get away, they won't willingly follow you under water. Work on your blocks and escapes and you'll be fine.



While what you say is a useful tactic, there are numerous training with video of lifeguards being taken down by struggling persons. As well as quite a few documented lifeguard deaths resulting from such situations. Rendering a person unconscious is a very viable alternative, particularly if they are refusing to cooperate in dangerous situations. A quick well placed strike can be very useful.

Grady_emt - I am the OP. And it's exactly what I was asking about. I carry a Ruger LCP myself on occasion, but don't believe my CC covers carrying at work.


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## mycrofft (Nov 29, 2008)

*Me, I bring my wooden club and Fred's kid BamBam along.*

If a cop sees your weapon you may be subject to arrest. In the state of California you certainly are if in a motor vehicle, and that can include a baton, tire knocker, or other potential weapon kept in a place of readiness.

If an assailant takes your weapon away you're jacked, and if he gets within the radius of your gun muzzle and your head, he has you. I seriously, seriously doubt anyone here except law officers and military have the judgement, reflexes, training and "warrior spirit" to do anything but brandish and maybe shoot some loudmouth who poses no serious threat.

Anyone can get a weapon or improvise one. Unless you are some Jedi master or something, and we are talking real life here kids, not a video game, the flat truth is that the person you can neutralize probably doesn't pose you a danger, and the guy who does is going to get you unless you have armed backup...law enforcement. 

PS: as a former lifesaver, I would pay you a quarter, paypal, right now, if you show me the American Red Cross materials instructing you how to knock out a victim.


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## firecoins (Nov 29, 2008)

mycrofft said:


> PS: as a former lifesaver, I would pay you a quarter, paypal, right now, if you show me the American Red Cross materials instructing you how to knock out a victim.



would you except American heart?


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## mycrofft (Nov 29, 2008)

*Coins, you're kidding me, right?*

Uh, Coins....?


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## VentMedic (Nov 29, 2008)

mycroft,

Wasn't that the Sleeper Hold or Choke Hold they used to teach as a way to subdue someone struggling in the water?


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## Grady_emt (Nov 29, 2008)

Allow me to refine my statement. I carry concealed when not at work.  While I am not sure of the legal part of carrying on an Ambulance in GA, I do know that it is against hospital policy to have a firearm on property. ambulance=extension of said property and I like my job, so I choose not to challenge them. As for scene safety, that is what staging and PD are for, they get paid to carry. 

In GA, it is legal to carry concealed in your home, your car, and your business without a permit. Anything outside of thise locations requires getting a CCW permit from the local probate court.


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## Medic9 (Nov 30, 2008)

I guess making sure you present yourself as a no-nonsense type right off the bat with those kind of people you can usually diffuse a situation. We don't carry anything and as much as I have joked about O2 therapy I would have to be in a serious situation to even have it cross my mind. 
Last weekend I had a mutual aid call to another community for difficulty breathing. Upon arrival the pt was sitting on the ground with beer cans around him. The BLS crew was two guys, I was with a student and my driver. I grabbed the two guys and had them ride with us and the FD that was on scene before we got there called for PD.This person was rotten, tried to touch me and was verbally abusive. My student did a fab job and the male EMTs did a great job keeping this guys hands off my student. I stood at the head of the stretcher observing and keeping my driver informed of what was going on so he could relay it to the PD. 
Most of the time we run a two person crew so I would have been having a bad day until I could get more man power and PD on board.


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## VentMedic (Nov 30, 2008)

Medic9 said:


> I guess making sure you present yourself as a no-nonsense type right off the bat with those kind of people you can usually diffuse a situation. *We don't carry anything* and as much as I have joked about O2 therapy I would have to be in a serious situation to even have it cross my mind.
> Last weekend I had a mutual aid call to another community for difficulty breathing. Upon arrival the pt was sitting on the ground with beer cans around him. The BLS crew was two guys, I was with a student and my driver. I grabbed the two guys and had them ride with us and the FD that was on scene before we got there called for PD.This person was rotten, tried to touch me and was verbally abusive. My student did a fab job and the male EMTs did a great job keeping this guys hands off my student. I stood at the head of the stretcher observing and keeping my driver informed of what was going on so he could relay it to the PD.
> Most of the time we run a two person crew so I would have been having a bad day until I could get more man power and PD on board.


 
What type of weapon were you hoping to have available to you?

Who had the complaint of difficulty breathing? 

Did you not have the option to wait a little longer at scene for PD? Didn't you state that PD had already been called? You said the person was still moving and talking. Were there any signs that this patient needed rapid transport? 

Were you even able to do any medical assessment or treatment during transport? 

It seems you may have put yourself and your crew into this situation as well as taking another ambulance out of service.


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## TropicalJosiah (Nov 30, 2008)

mycrofft said:


> PS: as a former lifesaver, I would pay you a quarter, paypal, right now, if you show me the American Red Cross materials instructing you how to knock out a victim.



Oh that's too easy! For just a quarter? Come one, gotta make it worth a little more for me to go produce material.

Though my original question was not really pertaining to firearms, and I know that EMS very often wear vests and carry ASP's where I'm from in LA/OC. Just more curious about day to day calls in non-top 10 murder capitals of the world areas, dealing with drunks, irate persons, drug users, etc

As someone mentioned though, the good ol maglite is a marvelous device for many reasons.


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## crayzeeemt (Nov 30, 2008)

*Well*



BossyCow said:


> Best protection is common sense. Making sure scene safe is really scene safe. To paraphrase the old catholic baltimore catichism... to avoid the near occasion of danger



Yeah, thats a given.  But if I've learned one thing, it's that people are asses and a situation can go from great to oh crap in no time. 

Here's one....

 Ok, Mrs. Smith, we got you back into your recliner, is there anything else we can do for you? Lock your door? 
    Nah, baby, I'm ok. 
Are you sure you don't want us to lock you door, your visiting nurse won't be back for a while and this is a tough neighborhood.
    Oh, thats ok.....Thats what I have this for.
90 yr old Mrs. Smith pulls out a old 38. special and before she can say..."see!" is goes on grazing her hand and left knee.  
  Beat that as far as out of nowhere!


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## phabib (Nov 30, 2008)

i never saw any of our medics carrying weapons. Some have small knives for cutting clothes but it's not for self protection.

What I did notice was none had any problem strapping a patient down if they became angry or overly agitated. After that one would sit behind the patient so they would not be within reach either way (patient would have to turn around before even being able to see the medic, plenty of time to react).

I don't plan on having anything on me for a weapon. I could do way more good just being near the door ready to run.


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## Medic9 (Nov 30, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> What type of weapon were you hoping to have available to you?
> 
> Who had the complaint of difficulty breathing?
> 
> ...




I didn't want any weapon available.

The person sitting on the ground was complaining of difficulty breathing. He left his house because he got tired of waiting for an ambulance. We were called in for ALS and another agency was called to cover because the ambulance in that area didn't respond (volunteer). 

We had already been on scene too long waiting for PD that was coming from another county and moving the patient to the ambulance.
Yes, assessment was done and treatment given. One of my concerns was cold weather injuries since he had been sitting in the snow and the temp was well below freezing. 

Please understand that I work in a rural setting and sitting waiting for PD just isn't possible some times. They met us when we were over half way to the hospital.


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## DT4EMS (Nov 30, 2008)

Well.......... here we go........... again 

In EMS you must train for 4 specific areas when you think of training for Self-Defense in EMS or better termed Defensive Tactics for EMS (DT4EMS).

1) Your Mind (Knowing "when" it's OK to use self-defense)
2) The Street (The actual incident)
3) The Media ("Medic beats up drunk man"-the headline reads)
4) The Courtroom ( Civil/Criminal..... 'cause you will defend yourself there too)

The problem with being "armed" with any type of a weapon can add to your worries/problems in training for all 4 areas. 

I am against EMS being armed. My reason....... they will try to dig for that "tool" rather than taking the time to escape which MUST be your goal.

It takes at least two people to fight. 

Folks......... I have spent 12 years training EMS in Defensive Tactics. Using a weapon in EMS usually ends bad for the EMS provider and the service (s)he works for.

I have tons of articles available for anyone that wants one.

Kip


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## DT4EMS (Nov 30, 2008)

Here is an example................

http://www.dt4ems.net/files/elbow_control.pdf 

It is one of the articles I did a few years back. I have video clips that go along with this "Tactic" as well.

Kip


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## VentMedic (Nov 30, 2008)

Medic9 said:


> I didn't want any weapon available.
> 
> The person sitting on the ground was complaining of difficulty breathing. He left his house because he got tired of waiting for an ambulance. *We were called in for ALS and another agency was called to cover because the ambulance in that area didn't respond (volunteer). *
> 
> ...


 
You change the tone of your post quickly when questioned.  Your first post had little about the care of the patient except he had beer cans around him and that seemed to be your entire assessment.  It also seems like your system has a few other issues. 

Did you get an ETA from PD?   I know it would be rather stupid and dangerous to have an LEO doing an emergency response to a scene to assist EMS providers, endangering him/herself and then be canceled a block away or have them *chase* the ambulance.   You still wanted your driver to keep in contact with PD so they could *chase* the ambulance for a meeting.  That also puts a lot of pressure on your driver to get you and your crew somewhere safely when in fact you may just wanted him to go faster to get rid of the patient from your truck.  

If you still has such concern for the safety of the crew, not to mention the patient, why not do some treatment at scene where you had the help from FD to control the scene.  You could have moved the patient to the back of the truck for warmth with their help.  Having an uncontrolled situation, if it was so bad that you wanted PD, is *NOT* a good or safe idea in the back of a moving truck. 

Original post:



> Originally Posted by *Medic9*
> 
> 
> _I guess making sure you present yourself as a no-nonsense type right off the bat with those kind of people you can usually diffuse a situation. We don't carry anything and as much as I have joked about O2 therapy I would have to be in a serious situation to even have it cross my mind.
> ...


 
I suggest you get in touch with *DT4EMS*  and see if you can learn something about dealing with patients like this for your safety and that of your crew as well as the patient.


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## Medic9 (Nov 30, 2008)

Unlike some posters I will never get detailed about a call on this forum or any other. It may sound like I didn't care, put my crew and PD at risk but at no time was that the case. Maybe I should stay away from talking about calls here since I refuse to get detailed. 
Should I have told you about his six inch snot-cicle hanging from his nose? Or that he had +PMS x3 not 4 because of an artifical limb???? I work in an area that has spots with no radio or cell phone signal. I did what I did because it was necessary. 
By the way, I already contacted the person you recommended.


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## VentMedic (Nov 30, 2008)

The reason I used your posts as an example is to demonstrate the different ways the use of words or attitude on scene can make or break the atmosphere surrounding the event. 

If you used th same descriptive words from your first post to where bystanders or other providers of various levels that may have limited experience or even country LEOs that are not that experienced, you could insite a hazardous situation. The way you and your crew conduct yourself if you are the highest medical authority will set the mood for the scene. If you are judgemental, the others will be also regardless of how sick or injured the person is.


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## mycrofft (Nov 30, 2008)

*Vent, when I was a lifeguard/dockhand I'd just finished a year as a feedstore clerk..*

170 lbs, could carry almost three hundred, I'd feed them my non-dominant arm then swarm on top and hold em under for a sec, let em up and scream "Give up!!" into their ear.
(Well, that's what's worked against the oiled and shaved LA County beach guard we had to beat to pass the course). 
(No I don't like gladiator movies, and it wasn't a female, weren't any then).

Naw, just get the cross chest hold good and tight then lever em up on your hip as you stroke for shore.

Works very poorly on a city street.


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## Sasha (Dec 1, 2008)

I'm not afraid to start swinging O2 bottles in self defense...

Mama said knock you out!


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## MMiz (Dec 1, 2008)

Have you ever heard of an "Oxygen Overdose?"  Yeah, I've heard of that happening countless times, though I've never had to do it myself.


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## Brooks416 (Dec 1, 2008)

I am a former police officer and have a type IIa vest that I have used in training. I am trained to retrieve downed officers with the use of a vest and ballistic blanket. ( part of homeland security grant use) Have not had a situation where it even came to thought to use. But they are available.


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## emtashleyb (Dec 1, 2008)

If we go to a mva here we get to wear a spiffy orange vest with the yellow reflecters on it lol. I do carry a knife on me as far as I know I am allowed to I carry it for rescue calls since it is a knife/seatbelt cutter/window punch all rolled into one and only god knows what is going to be missing from the rig somedays. Never plan on using it on anyone. If there is any doubt call the pd make sure the scene is safe before you get there. I have had to use an O2 bottle once not something I would want to do again I had no other choice but to defend myself. PD was not avaible at that time I had a 250 lb 6'5 man swinging at me. Down here in nc the pd are great about getting to the call before us and making sure the scene is safe.


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## jochi1543 (Dec 1, 2008)

We don't have anything, but I've heard of self-defense incidents where pretty serious damage to the patient resulted and it was simply documented and no charges were ever pressed (patients were biting, trying to strangle the practitioner with her stethoscope, etc), and the damage to the patient was on the order as high as a skull fracture. It sounds like they don't care what we do as long as it's justified and the "discussion" stops once patient is completely restrained or unconscious.


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## John E (Dec 1, 2008)

TropicalJosiah said" Though my original question was not really pertaining to firearms, and I know that EMS very often wear vests and carry ASP's where I'm from in LA/OC."

I'm curious, where in Los Angeles or Orange County have you seen EMS personnel carrying Asp batons?

John E.


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## jochi1543 (Dec 1, 2008)

Oh, I just remembered, we have an Indian reserve here where they give medics bullet-resistant (not -proof.:unsure vests...but you don't have to wear them to every call. There's a lot of violent crime on that rez, so it's an exception to the rule.


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## Sapphyre (Dec 2, 2008)

John E said:


> I'm curious, where in Los Angeles or Orange County have you seen EMS personnel carrying Asp batons?
> 
> John E.



I'd like to know as well.  Actually, I'd like to know where they issue vests.  Apparently, we have them at work, but they aren't issued, and I had to ask (out of curiosity).


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## EMTCop86 (Dec 2, 2008)

TropicalJosiah said:


> Cops wear vest 100% of the time without issue.


 
Have you ever talked to a real cop? Vest are hot and bulky. They wear them to help protect against bullets, not because they are comfortable. Also not all cops wear a vest. There are many advances in bullet proof vest now a days but to say "Cops wear vest 100% of the time without issue" shows that you have been misinformed.


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## EMTCop86 (Dec 2, 2008)

John E said:


> I'm curious, where in Los Angeles or Orange County have you seen EMS personnel carrying Asp batons?


 
Ditto. I am really curious now too.


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## ffemt8978 (Dec 2, 2008)

jochi1543 said:


> It sounds like they don't care what we do as long as it's justified and the "discussion" stops once patient is completely restrained or unconscious.



Ohh, I can guarantee that they care...the patient cares, the patient's family cares, the doctor cares, the agency cares, the lawyers care, and you should to.

And remember, just because you may not face criminal charges, doesn't mean you're in the clear as far as civil liability goes (OJ anyone?).

Are there times where it could be appropriate to seriously injure a patient?  Absolutely!  If you are in a life and death struggle with no chance to escape, then you may defend yourself using, up to and including, lethal force if necessary...provided that you don't use any more force than necessary to stop the threat and/or give yourself a chance to escape.

I'm sure DT4EMS can provide much better insight than this, and I strongly encourage that you contact him.


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## DT4EMS (Dec 2, 2008)

I would like to give a cop perspective on this.

1) In is in our department policy we wear our vests while on duty. Yes it's hot, but I can be hot and live.

2) I specialize in the Use of Force and teach numerous subjects pertaining to it. There is nothing more I would hate than to charge an EMS provider with assault. Truth is, if you use any force that is not justified chances are, you will be charged in todays society.

I have said it before........... if the person is high or or drunk........... regardless of their injury/illness.................. if they are in an active agression mode............

YOU SHOULD NOT BE RESTRAINING THEM! You can make a case for your safety and allow the police to restrain them.

More EMS providers are assualted during a restraint attempt than just about any other situation.


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## ffemt8978 (Dec 2, 2008)

DT4EMS said:


> I would like to give a cop perspective on this.
> 
> 1) In is in our department policy we wear our vests while on duty. Yes it's hot, but I can be hot and live.
> 
> ...



And then you have to deal with something like this...http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=10039


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## rjz (Dec 3, 2008)

DT4EMS said:


> I have said it before........... if the person is high or or drunk........... regardless of their injury/illness.................. if they are in an active agression mode............
> 
> YOU SHOULD NOT BE RESTRAINING THEM! You can make a case for your safety and allow the police to restrain them.
> 
> More EMS providers are assualted during a restraint attempt than just about any other situation.



I haven't really thought of that before. You make a great point. Just this last week I had an agressive drunk that we needed to restrain. He wazs fine until we got him on the gurney and lifted then something snapped...I don't know what and he started fighting us. We were out on the middle of BFE and LEO was about 45 mintues away. We got him restrained and taken to the hospital. (read implied consent) I also for the first time used Versed to Chemically restrian him. He was moving around so much I could not get him out of his trailer and was concerned about the gurney tipping over. 

So I guess I will think about allowing (requesting) LEO to restrian my Pt. now. Thanks!!

BTW how about chemical restraint as a self defense?? Our region has it as a standing order for extreme aggitiation.


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## para82frame (Dec 3, 2008)

First of all I expect that I will be attacked for what I am about to write but... 
          I carry the most effective weapon the state or city will allow me, yes I have and continue to carry a concealed hand gun (I have a CCW), pepper spray and knives to many scenes with cops on scene also. my life is always going to be worth more then someones who is trying to hurt me, my family or innocent people. Most states self defense/use of force/deadly force laws are simple, you try to hurt someone or commit a violent felony, equal/escalating force may be used to stop it, and guess what? assault of a EMS worker is a violent felony.
          No civilian job is worth my life, I would much rather be jobless and alive then dead with full honors at my funeral.
          Anyone that thinks that someone could get a hold of my or a cops gun easily never watched or took a weapon retention course, keeping in control of your weapon is not that hard with just class room teaching on how to do so.


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## DT4EMS (Dec 3, 2008)

para82frame said:


> First of all I expect that I will be attacked for what I am about to write but...
> I carry the most effective weapon the state or city will allow me, yes I have and continue to carry a concealed hand gun (I have a CCW), pepper spray and knives to many scenes with cops on scene also. my life is always going to be worth more then someones who is trying to hurt me, my family or innocent people. Most states self defense/use of force/deadly force laws are simple, you try to hurt someone or commit a violent felony, equal/escalating force may be used to stop it, and guess what? assault of a EMS worker is a violent felony.
> No civilian job is worth my life, I would much rather be jobless and alive then dead with full honors at my funeral.
> Anyone that thinks that someone could get a hold of my or a cops gun easily never watched or took a weapon retention course, keeping in control of your weapon is not that hard with just class room teaching on how to do so.



I wish you the best of luck on your choices. I have told the story many times of how I USED to carry my gun while working on the ambulance ( I am a full-time police officer) and worked part-time as a medic.

My ambulance was car-jacked while loaded with a pateint. I fought empty handed against an attacker who struck me during my attempt to gain control of the ambulance (He was in the drivers seat, I was on my knees through the opening) I was tending the cardiac pateint in the back.

If I had my weapon (which I had left secured that day) I would have been justified in shootign the man. (Due to the Felony force he used during 3 counts of kindapping and vehicle theft)

After it was over I thought.......... the headlines would have read "Paramedic shoots man in ambulance".

Having testified numerous times.......... I just just imagine the size of the check my service would have wrote. 

As long as you can justify your having and using your "tool" whatever that tool may be. 

I can assure you.............. with 700,000 annaul assaults on EMS and the public doesn't care............ you will have a heck of a legal battle if/when you use your tool.


What do you do when you are called to places that you are not allowed to carry concealed in? That is usually a violation of your concealed permit.
Good luck ( and I am not being sarcastic). 

Kip


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## Ridryder911 (Dec 3, 2008)

para82frame said:


> ......First of all I expect that I will be attacked for what I am about to write but...
> I carry the most effective weapon the state or city will allow me, yes I have and continue to carry a concealed hand gun (I have a CCW), pepper spray and knives to many scenes with cops on scene also. my life is always going to be worth more then someones who is trying to hurt me, my family or innocent people. Most states self defense/use of force/deadly force laws are simple, you try to hurt someone or commit a violent felony, equal/escalating force may be used to stop it, and guess what? assault of a EMS worker is a violent felony......etc




I actually kinda feel sorry for you. You are poorly informed, under-educated and lack the general understanding of what real life is like. If you think or even presume that a concealed weapon would ever be justifiable you are not ignorant, nor delusional; just stupid. As well are you sure that it is a felony within your state, its not in all states. 

Just remember, you maybe alive but you and your family will have to suffer the consequences as well. Litigation on civil suits will be guaranteed after prosecution ( yes, you will be prosecuted) can your family afford that? Your employer will acclaim exemption since I am sure they do not have a policy on shooting patients or allowing such. So can your careless actions really afford $250,000 legal fees and million and a half settlement? 

Take a course like Chip's and learn the best defense actions, we have no reason or room for John Wayne types in this business. Bring a weapon on duty in my employment & your fired, as you should be. 

I too would wish you luck, but I believe your family needs it more.


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## BossyCow (Dec 3, 2008)

*It's official! Common Sense is Passé!*

I own guns. I believe in and support the right to keep and bear arms. I also believe I have a right to free speech. Neither of these rights overides the responsibility of me to use my brain to determine when is an appropriate time to exercise these rights. Carrying a concealed weapon while on duty in an ambulance is the equivilent to crying fire in a crowded theatre. The resulting danger and potential for harm to the innocent and uninvolved far outweighs the need to exercise my 'rights'.


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## VentMedic (Dec 3, 2008)

para82frame said:


> Anyone that thinks that someone could get a hold of my or a cops gun easily never watched or took a weapon retention course, keeping in control of your weapon is not that hard with just class room teaching on how to do so.


 
If all of your concern is for your gun and not the patient, you are in the wrong business. If you want to possess a gun that badly at work, go be a cop. However, your attitude may actually disqualify you during the LEO screening process due to your disreguard to the law and safety. 

I've had my concealed weapons permit for many years and respect the law that granted me this privilege to exercise my right. Thus, breaking the law disrepects everything it stands for. 

Your state's concealed weapons permit should read much like the other states as it will list specifically where you can not carry a weapon. Your company's policy manual should also state whether weapons are allowed in the work place. I suggest you read both very carefully.

Or, you could just take your own advice:



> No civilian job is worth my life, I would much rather be jobless


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## rescuepoppy (Dec 3, 2008)

BossyCow said:


> I own guns. I believe in and support the right to keep and bear arms. I also believe I have a right to free speech. Neither of these rights overides the responsibility of me to use my brain to determine when is an appropriate time to exercise these rights. Carrying a concealed weapon while on duty in an ambulance is the equivilent to crying fire in a crowded theatre. The resulting danger and potential for harm to the innocent and uninvolved far outweighs the need to exercise my 'rights'.



Have to go with Bossy on this. The best weapon we can have is the one between our ears. Just be alert to what is going on around you,and dont be afraid to talk to your patients. Most of the time treating people with respect will go a long way to diffuse a situation before it reaches the point of becoming physical. However if it does reach the physical level be willing to put the macho (or whatever you want to call it) attitude behind and use escape routes. I dont have personal attacments to anything in a truck I will leave it to a patient if I have to for my own safety.
   We have enough items in an ambulance that can be used as a weapon. No need to introduce another. I too have my CCW permit,but will not carry in any patient care situation. We do not need the bad press we would get from th headlines that read "Paramedic Uses Gun,Knife.Asp,Or other weapon Against Patient". Not to mention the legal aspects of this.


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## emtashleyb (Dec 3, 2008)

BossyCow said:


> I own guns. I believe in and support the right to keep and bear arms. I also believe I have a right to free speech. Neither of these rights overides the responsibility of me to use my brain to determine when is an appropriate time to exercise these rights. Carrying a concealed weapon while on duty in an ambulance is the equivilent to crying fire in a crowded theatre. The resulting danger and potential for harm to the innocent and uninvolved far outweighs the need to exercise my 'rights'.



I also agree with bossy. I would never ever take a gun on an ambo. I would fear of it accidently discharging shooting myself, a pt, bystander or my partner. I am not good with handguns anyway now give me a m14 and I will do some damage lol


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## para82frame (Dec 3, 2008)

Let me add that I would only use deadly force when met with deadly force. I expected these types of responses but still feel I have a valid opinion (no matter how right or wrong)
Also my state has a "castle doctorate" which extends to your place of work (I.E. the ambulance) and protects me from civil suits in the event of a "clean" shoot.I hope I will never have to use deadly force:sad:, but if need be I will be ready.


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## FF-EMT Diver (Dec 4, 2008)

I just carry my hands and keep nothing between me and the exit but air

But if I found myself assaulted I would fight like I,ve trained to, as has been said if you train you can handle it, If someone pulled a gun on me and I had no way out and could'nt verbally defuse the situation I quess I'd just take the gun from em if poss (probly not poss)

When I wanna carry a gun as a EMT I go get my gun, vest, And tac gear and go do a raid with the swat team.

I dont think it's neccesary and I can remember my first image of unproffesionalism came when I was 17 and doing a search for a 52 y/o drowning victim and we called for mutual aid assistance 4th day in and this off duty cop/FF showed up with a lowslung 45 on a thigh rig with 2 extra mags on the other side when asked why he brought he said he knew family can get outta hand sometime,:sad:


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## tydek07 (Dec 4, 2008)

I carry nothing for protection.  I guess my radio, hehe, sneaky emergency (oh sh*t) botton... but that won't do a thing for me when I need something NOW


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## Jon (Dec 6, 2008)

para82frame said:


> ...
> Anyone that thinks that someone could get a hold of my or a cops gun easily never watched or took a weapon retention course, keeping in control of your weapon is not that hard with just class room teaching on how to do so.



#1 We all know of at least one local LEO that doesn't always bring their A-game to every call for service... it only takes a moment of inattention and someone else can have control of a firearm, especially if it isn't carried in a good retention holster.

#2 I've made the case before that because I've been through some classes on carrying firearms for employment (security) I understand the risks involved much better... and since much of our work causes us to divert our attention away from situational awareness... like taking a blood pressure.

#3 I've got lots of local LEO's who will gladly show up and assist me in resolving my problems with an agressive person... my job is to keep myself and my partner safe until they get there... that means that we BACK AWAY from the patient and then stay back until the LEO's handle the problem.

Jon





Tropical:
The LCP is a nice start... but not much. 



Vests aren't bad. I know some folks who wear them. However, impact weapons and OC are a legal question for each service/EMS region.


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## John E (Dec 6, 2008)

*hmmm...*

1 in 5 police officers killed were shot with either their own or their partner's weapon according to data provided by the The National Law Enforcement and Corrections Technology Center. Guess all of them failed that weapon retention class...

John E.

Note to self, stay out of ambulances in North Dakota...


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## TomB (Dec 6, 2008)

John E said:


> 1 in 5 police officers killed were shot with either their own or their partner's weapon according to data provided by the The National Law Enforcement and Corrections Technology Center. Guess all of them failed that weapon retention class...
> 
> John E.
> 
> Note to self, stay out of ambulances in North Dakota...



They need to purchase Die Less Often - Intro to the Interface of Gun, Knife, and Empty Hand by Gabe Suarez and Dog Brothers Martial Arts.


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## John E (Dec 7, 2008)

*Apparently my point wasn't as obvious...*

as it could have been.

Another person posted some stuff about how he/she carries a gun while working on an ambulance and then tried to rationalise their actions. When they got called on the potential danger of carrying a gun while working on an ambulance, they made the following claim, "Anyone that thinks that someone could get a hold of my or a cops gun easily never watched or took a weapon retention course, keeping in control of your weapon is not that hard with just class room teaching on how to do so." Which is of course, patently absurd on it's face. Now I'm just guessing here, but I'd bet that's pretty much what those cops that were killed with their own weapons probably thought too. 

EMT's and Paramedics fix people who have been shot, they're not supposed to be the ones doing the shooting.

John E.


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## para82frame (Dec 7, 2008)

John E said:


> 1 in 5 police officers killed were shot with either their own or their partner's weapon according to data provided by the The National Law Enforcement and Corrections Technology Center. Guess all of them failed that weapon retention class...
> 
> John E.
> 
> Note to self, stay out of ambulances in North Dakota...



1 in 5? I am going to call bovine scat. The FBI puts the number closer to 1 in 28, in other words 2 cops where murdered with there own gun in 2007. To put this in perspective, 4 were murdered with there own car in the same time period.


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## EMTCop86 (Dec 7, 2008)

para82frame said:


> 1 in 5? I am going to call bovine scat. The FBI puts the number closer to 1 in 28, in other words 2 cops where murdered with there own gun in 2007. To put this in perspective, 4 were murdered with there own car in the same time period.


 
Please post a link to where you read that the FBI said 1 in 28. I found an article confirming what John said but can not find one confirming what you said. Not saying your wrong just want to see where you read it from.



> ...It is a scenario that, while not commonplace, happens with enough frequency to alarm law enforcement professionals nationwide. Last year, 10 police officers were shot and killed in the United States after a suspect managed to get control of an officer’s weapon. *Nearly one in five officers killed as part of a crime last year were shot with their own (or a partner’s) weapon, according to the National Center for Law Enforcement Technology* - the highest number of such deaths in 18 years... http://www.gothamgazette.com/article/crime/20040916/4/1119


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## para82frame (Dec 7, 2008)

http://www.policeone.com/news/16945...minary-statistics-for-officers-killed-in-2007


> A breakdown of weapons used in these slayings revealed that firearms were used in the majority of incidents.* Of the 55 officers killed with firearms*, 38 were killed with handguns, nine with shotguns, and eight with rifles. Four officers were killed with vehicles.
> 
> At the time they were killed, 35 law enforcement officers were wearing body armor. Eleven officers fired their weapons, and 14 of the slain law enforcement officers attempted to fire their weapons. Four officers had their weapons stolen, *and two officers were slain with their own weapons*.


1 out of 27 =/= 1 out of 5


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## TomB (Dec 7, 2008)

Anyone who thinks a firearm will protect them from a surprise attack within 21 feet is delusional. Usually the "21 foot" rule is used with regard to an edged weapon attack, but the basic premise is the same. If you're closer than 21 feet from your attacker, you will not have sufficient time to draw your weapon before s/he closes the gap. Weapon retention classes help in a life and death struggle, but you have to be really REALLY good to fight for your life and retain a firearm at the same time. You might be better off engaging hand to hand in the first place.

http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/2006/march2006/mar06leb.htm

"The 21-foot rule, a dogma of law enforcement training, has held that at a distance closer than 21 feet, a suspect with an edged weapon in hand could stab an officer before that officer could fire two shots. However, one researcher found that an individual can cross 30 feet in 2 seconds and suggested that the person could travel 70 yards before succumbing to injuries created by an officer’s firearm.14 According to the FBI, “There is sufficient oxygen within the brain to support full, voluntary action for 10 to 15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed.”15

This suggests that 21 feet is an insufficient safety zone during an edged-weapon encounter. Unlike shooting a firearm, lashing out with an edged weapon is a primitive, instinctive action that a subject can accomplish in that 10- to 15-second window. At the beginning of the 20th century while conducting operations in the Philippines, members of the U.S. Marine Corps found that insurgents, although fatally wounded in the chest, still could move forward and issue a final blow from their edged weapons, seriously wounding or killing Marines. These experiences support the FBI data that even after being mortally wounded, a suspect with a knife still can inflict injury or death to an officer."


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## chocchipsmom (Dec 7, 2008)

BossyCow said:


> I own guns. I believe in and support the right to keep and bear arms. I also believe I have a right to free speech. Neither of these rights overides the responsibility of me to use my brain to determine when is an appropriate time to exercise these rights. Carrying a concealed weapon while on duty in an ambulance is the equivilent to crying fire in a crowded theatre. The resulting danger and potential for harm to the innocent and uninvolved far outweighs the need to exercise my 'rights'.



I too must agree with Bossy on this.  Also, our sate prohibits "weapons" on ambulances unless you are an LEO, AND on duty as such.  Besides, there are many items on board that an be used.  

I work in a rural county, but that doesn't mean we don't see our share of violence.  I have been assaulted by patients, and able to protect myself and my partner, without a firearm.


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## Mongoose (Dec 7, 2008)

Who honestly believes they will actually have time to deploy a weapon when they are in as close proximity to the pt as they are? Coming from law enforcement and a military background (went 4F/medically disqualified, long story, but that's how I ended up in EMS) it was unnerving to get within two body-lengths of a person requiring emergency attention. Even at that distance you don't really have time to properly deploy a handgun, even if it is at the optimal place on your hip/waist/shoulder/whatever. Basically that distance gives you enough time to evade an assault, _creating the time to deploy your self defense mechanism._ 

EMS example: pt recently arrested, DFO's (fake or not), LE removes pt from restraints/cuffs to assess ABC's/start cpr. When you arrive you don't assess from 12ft away, you assess while kneeling/leaning over the patient. You are within a foot away, your torso is exposed, and both hands are occupied getting a BP, auscultating lung sounds, checking pulse, whathaveyou. During the assessment the pt comes to. Any pt in custody worth his salt will wait until you are the most vulnerable, let's say, kneeling at his right side, auscultating left lung sounds. Pt lunges, be it with a concealed blade he had, or a rock he grabs, or even a hand with an insanely strong, adrenaline (or other substance) fueled grip. "Oh wait please while I withdraw my knife, unfold it, and grip it properly." or "Excuse me but I need to unbutton the snap on my holster, withdraw my handgun which extends my arms seven inches, and maneuver it to point at you." Don't even get me started with, "STOP! Or I'll trauma shear your A--!!!!" Don't think so. By then you're gonna be bleeding, or about to bleed from your own weapon. (There is no such thing as a 100% secure draw) It would be pretty embarassing to get stabbed by your own knife on scene in front of everyone while trying to play the EMS bada--. 

Unfortunately in these days of ambulance chasers, lawsuits, and the myriad of use-of-force laws the all around safest answer you have is to block and retreat, if you can. As was mentioned previously in this post EMS personnel are not even granted the same self-defense privileges that the ordinary citizen is. To be fair, the law does apply to EMS and citizens equally, however the level of legal scrutiny gives us a distinct disadvantage. LE is trained to control the threat, and retreat if necessary. Military is taught to neutralize the threat (though that is becoming heavily bureaucratized in and of itself). That's part of their job, just as being safe on scene is a part of ours. As was also mentioned previously, "EMT kills patient" is not a good headline. Even "EMT kills patient in self-defense" is not a good headline. As I understand it citizens (and theoretically EMS personnel) are allowed to escalate the level of force by one level in attempts to subdue an assailant. Seeing as that could theoretically lead to the death of the other, both of those above headlines are very possible.

Following the advice given to me, preempt as much of the threat as possible by becoming an EMS brick until the scene is as safe as humanly possible! Trust me I'm still learning all this, I'm a rookie, but just this morning I had an ETOH pt w/a stab wound to his right shoulder throw a left at me. I was able to dodge it and pin his arm across his chest while I got my feet under me. Then I stood up and backed away. 

(and for the record I am a proud gun owner/carrier/advocate and have citation awards in tactical pistol and rifle, working on tactical shotgun. Originally from Washington State and moving back there in May, glad to see an ally BossyCow!!!)


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## EMTCop86 (Dec 8, 2008)

para82frame said:


> http://www.policeone.com/news/16945...minary-statistics-for-officers-killed-in-2007
> 
> 1 out of 27 =/= 1 out of 5


 
Thank you.


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## fortsmithman (Dec 8, 2008)

I googled national center for law enforcement technology The organization I got has a similar name its called the national law enforcement and corrections technology center.  If the reporter who wrote that article got that wrong then what other stuff did the reporter get wrong.


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## EMTCop86 (Dec 8, 2008)

fortsmithman said:


> I googled national center for law enforcement technology The organization I got has a similar name its called the national law enforcement and corrections technology center. If the reporter who wrote that article got that wrong then what other stuff did the reporter get wrong.


 
I don't think he got it wrong the article was from 2004 and he was talking about the stats from 2003. The one Para is talking about is from 2007.


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## para82frame (Dec 8, 2008)

EMTCop86 said:


> I don't think he got it wrong the article was from 2004 and he was talking about the stats from 2003. The one Para is talking about is from 2007.



But do you really think that the stats went from 1 in 5 to 1 in 27 in just 4 years?

Also, if you use a source that is also trying to sell you something, you need to take the statistics with a grain of salt.


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## EMTCop86 (Dec 9, 2008)

para82frame said:


> But do you really think that the stats went from 1 in 5 to 1 in 27 in just 4 years?
> 
> Also, if you use a source that is also trying to sell you something, you need to take the statistics with a grain of salt.


 
I didn't say it did, I was stating what I read. Who knows if any of these statistics are accurate. However with advances in training and better retention holsters I do believe such a number could dramatically change. Whether the number changed from 1 in 5 to 1 in 27 is questionable it is possible.


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## artman17847 (Dec 9, 2008)

this reminds of a very scary call i had many years ago. I was working for a private service doing transports. We had just finished taking a pt. home and were sitting in the rig waiting to copy the next run. Out of nowhere this guy sticks a gun through the open drivers side window and puts it to the head of my partner. My partner who was Veitnam vet clamly says " I didn't do two tours in Veitnam to die like this!" He quickly throws the door open hitting the guy in the head and chest and knocking the gun out of his hand. He then jumps out and starts to beat the crap out this guy. Meanwhile i was on the radio calling for the PD. Cops were there in what seemed like seconds. Turns out the guy was looking for drugs. 

Ever since that day I have always been very weary of my surroundings. 

But I have never carried anything to defend myself with. Thought about it but never did.


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## NolaRabbit (Dec 9, 2008)

_this reminds of a very scary call i had many years ago. I was working for a private service doing transports. We had just finished taking a pt. home and were sitting in the rig waiting to copy the next run. Out of nowhere this guy sticks a gun through the open drivers side window and puts it to the head of my partner. My partner who was Veitnam vet clamly says " I didn't do two tours in Veitnam to die like this!" He quickly throws the door open hitting the guy in the head and chest and knocking the gun out of his hand. He then jumps out and starts to beat the crap out this guy._

OMG! Scary!! I've often wondered what I would do if faced with a gun to my head, but I am pretty sure I wouldn't have been as daring as your partner. You both are really lucky!

I've been working EMS in the Big Sleazy for over 7 years now and thankfully I've never been assaulted. I've had combative patients try to bite, spit and hit, but I've never been a victim. I have actually had someone climb in the back of my ambulance while I was in it - TWICE! Both times they were psych patients that had eloped out of the ER. The second time I was actually in the back of the unit when the guy started climbing in. We tussled a bit in the doorway until hospital PD ran out and grabbed him by the ankles. He ended up doing a faceplant on the back bumper as PD dragged him from his death grip on the stretcher. It looked like it hurt...a lot. :blush:


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## EMT-P633 (Dec 10, 2008)

Grady_emt said:


> Allow me to refine my statement. I carry concealed when not at work.  While I am not sure of the legal part of carrying on an Ambulance in GA, I do know that it is against hospital policy to have a firearm on property. ambulance=extension of said property and I like my job, so I choose not to challenge them. As for scene safety, that is what staging and PD are for, they get paid to carry.
> 
> In GA, it is legal to carry concealed in your home, your car, and your business without a permit. Anything outside of thise locations requires getting a CCW permit from the local probate court.



Kind of the same here in TN. As far as the state is concerned. It is legal to carry concealed firearms on an ambulance.  How ever they (state EMS board) does not in any way recommend carrying of any weapon. They have chosen to leave the actual policy to the individual services be it local gov or private.  The 2 services I work for (local gov 911) do not allow firearms in the building (stations) but if you have your permit to carry you may leave them secured in  your vehicle at your own risk.

Personally I feel that I would not want to face the legal consequences of using a firearm while on duty.  It has been my experience that if I need more protection then a nice stern voice. Im gettin some LEO's and backin my fanny to the truck then down the street.  

On the way to the call if I feel that it has the direct potential to get ugly.  I will have LEO's enroute before we even get on scene.  Alot of our calls are O.D. domestics, MVC, in which LEO's are already sent by dispatch as part of our local EMA proptocols.  Now the general sickness, S.O.B. C/P, etc, etc no we dont usually have them enroute to begin with.  

Common sence will serve a person well in this buisness. alot farther then the ones who get tunnel vision get all squirrely.


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## Brooks416 (Dec 10, 2008)

As an educator at the Maine Criminal Justice academy said in a class about when to shoot your weapon ( I would rather be tried by twelve people than carried by six people)


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## BossyCow (Dec 10, 2008)

Brooks416 said:


> As an educator at the Maine Criminal Justice academy said in a class about when to shoot your weapon ( I would rather be tried by twelve people than carried by six people)



I can't imagine a situation where those two options are the only ones available to you. Lot of grey area between that black and white!


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## speakofblue (Dec 11, 2008)

*Bems*

Not sure on this one. Maybe a more informed person can clear things up. But, I've heard that Boston EMS is fitted for vests and carries mace. Pretty sure I've seen them with handcuffs. 

As for myself, I don't carry any weapons. I can see where they may be of use in the most rare of situations. But, in most cases, use your head to de-escalate the scene.


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## Dobo (Dec 11, 2008)

I would wear a vest if I had to, but I would not carry a side arm. I have pretty strong convictions about firearms, I am not saying there is anything wrong with people who may not agree with, that we all are entitled to our opinions, and this would be the choice I make.


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## KempoEMT (Dec 11, 2008)

Now, keep in mind that I am not in EMS yet; but I have 7 years of Shaolin Kempo, and carry a 2.5" locking blade.  Now I have *NEVER* had to use the knife, but in highschool and more recently I've had minor scuffles.  Most people back down when I ask them if they really want to mess with me. (I'm a 6' 245lbs guy)


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## speakofblue (Dec 11, 2008)

KempoEMT:

Your quote, "'the man who strikes first, admits he has run out of other options',"
sums it up.


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## KempoEMT (Dec 11, 2008)

speakofblue said:


> KempoEMT:
> 
> Your quote, "'the man who strikes first, admits he has run out of other options',"
> sums it up.



Thank ya Blue.  I wish i could claim it my own.


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