# Junior Corps Training



## Jenn701 (Mar 26, 2009)

We are a small corps but we have a few junior corps members and I basically have run out of ideas for training to do with them. Does anyone have any suggestions?


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## bstone (Mar 26, 2009)

Need a little more info. Can you describe your corps? Are you solely EMS or also fire? What is the diff between regular and junior? Are Jr members under 18 or are they just less active? Answering these will surely enable us to respond.


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## EMTinNEPA (Mar 27, 2009)

In order to tell you what training you can do, we have to know what training you haven't done, which would require you telling us what training you have done, so what training have you done?


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## Jenn701 (Mar 30, 2009)

Sorry about that. Jr. Corps members are under the age of 18. we are an ems corps only. So far we have done the basic splinting, equipment, rig checks, vitals, burns, minor injuries... I think thats it. We are waiting for a big enough class to do the first aid and cpr certifications. At this point we are looking for basic but fun and interesting things to do to keep their interest.


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## firecoins (Mar 30, 2009)

How many do you have that you can not do a CPR class or first aid? That was a requirment when I was a "youth corp" member years ago.


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## johnnyreb132 (Mar 30, 2009)

IMHO, sounds like you've done pretty much everything you can right now.  Maybe you could set up a scenario that allows them to use and practice all the skills they've been taught so far?


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## bstone (Mar 30, 2009)

This is a sticky issue. I believe that people under 18 (perhaps around 16) should be able to go through EMT training. When I lived in Israel I saw that 16 was a perfectly normal age for someone to take EMT training.

Of course many here disagree with me, but that is there choice.

As far as training, if you want it to be truly EMS geared then have then trained on most of the things that Basics use, just don't tell them it's the same as they would learn in EMT school (or do tell them). That way when they turn 18 and enroll in EMT school they'll be super ready.


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## phabib (Mar 30, 2009)

Simulated MCI's are always a lot of fun. 

You can also do a points competition to see who checks the most things during assessment. A little competition always helps get people into it.


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## Sasha (Mar 30, 2009)

I don't believe people under 18 should be in EMS. So I think what you could do is focus on school and learning, and wait 'til you hit 18.


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## AJ Hidell (Mar 31, 2009)

I was a huge supporter of them for many years.  But I've just seen too many of them go bad and end up hurting both the kids and the organization in a big way.  The incidence of sexual impropriety in police and EMS youth, cadet, and Explorer programs is just too common to ignore.  If it hasn't happened in yours yet, it either will, or else it has and nobody found out yet.


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## daedalus (Mar 31, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> I was a huge supporter of them for many years.  But I've just seen too many of them go bad and end up hurting both the kids and the organization in a big way.  The incidence of sexual impropriety in police and EMS youth, cadet, and Explorer programs is just too common to ignore.  If it hasn't happened in yours yet, it either will, or else it has and nobody found out yet.



Sexual impropriety? Uh oh.

I do not agree with letting those under 18 seek EMT training or be certified to any level of EMS provider. I do not have an opinion ether way about explorer posts that let the kids ride along once a month and learn CPR.

Kids are not allowed to become certified RNs or RTs, there is no youth corp for wannabe MDs. We should follow suit. There are limited instances where children may shadow these guys, which can be rewarding for everyone, but anything beyond that takes away from our already dumpy level of professionalism.


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## Jon (Mar 31, 2009)

So long as you've got a "few" members...put on a FA and CPR class... it shouldn't be difficult.

Then go on... put them through all the training you can, by law... if the state says First Responder and/or EMT are OK for 16 year olds... have them take those classes.

Involve them with the full squad for drill. Go play with the Fire Department... Do vehicle extrications. Set up a rehab station and do rehab practice when the FD is doing a structural burn or Haz-Mat training.

Go on tour - go to the 911 center. Go to a bigger town's EMS and see how it's run.

Bring folks in. Have the Haz mat team come in and demo and explain what they do. Do Haz-Mat Awareness. Contact your local aeromedical team and have them come and do a ground-ops class.


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## bstone (Mar 31, 2009)

I know of no 16 year old Israeli EMTs who have been harassed due to their gender. Not saying it doesn't happen but it's not something that I fear of occurring on a large scale.


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## Sasha (Mar 31, 2009)

bstone said:


> I know of no 16 year old Israeli EMTs who have been harassed due to their gender. Not saying it doesn't happen but it's not something that I fear of occurring on a large scale.



We are not Israel.


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## bstone (Mar 31, 2009)

Sasha said:


> We are not Israel.



Which is a shame. We can learn a lot from them. A real lot. No one has more experience in MCIs.


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## Sasha (Mar 31, 2009)

bstone said:


> Which is a shame. We can learn a lot from them. A real lot. No one has more experience in MCIs.



Because MCIs are frequent there. Take a look at Israel. 

Your argument that there are 16 year old EMTs in Israel means nothing. They are two totally different countries. Children in Israel are subjected to such things from an early age. Most children in America are not. 

What other serious medical profession allows children to be licensed/certified? 

"EMS! So easy, a child could do it!" just screams "I'm a professional!" doesn't it?


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## EMTinNEPA (Mar 31, 2009)

*steps up onto his soap-box*

Individuals under the age of 18 have no business being allowed to, being in the process of, obtaining, or holding an EMT-B certification.  We are not a hobby.  We are a profession.  At least, that's what we SHOULD be, anyway.  The days of volunteer organizations having 20 members to respond at any given time are long gone.  Volunteering may work just fine for firefighting, but EMS isn't firefighting.  It's time for us to let what few volunteer organizations remain to fade away gracefully so that history will remember them fondly, but move on to what today's world requires... 24/7, guaranteed, quality assured, educated staffing.  And I know, this probably sounds like a digression, but it actually brings me back to my original point.  If you look at EMS as a profession, do you believe that children should be permitted to hold the qualifications required to be active in said profession?  Would you really want your life or your familys' lives to be in the hands of somebody who can't even vote yet?

Explorers posts are fine in the same way that job-shadowing in other fields is fine.  I'm not against the concept, hell, I'm an advisor for our local post.  But wait until they're able to legally drive past 11pm or buy cigarettes* before you let them actually do anything in a real world setting.

* EMTinNEPA, while a smoker himself, does not advocate the use of tobacco products.


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## bstone (Mar 31, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Because MCIs are frequent there. Take a look at Israel.
> 
> Your argument that there are 16 year old EMTs in Israel means nothing. They are two totally different countries. Children in Israel are subjected to such things from an early age. Most children in America are not.
> 
> ...



EMS! No special skills required! Money back guarantee!


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## bstone (Mar 31, 2009)

EMTinNEPA said:


> *steps up onto his soap-box*
> 
> Individuals under the age of 18 have no business being allowed to, being in the process of, obtaining, or holding an EMT-B certification.



What about the thousands of thousands Israeli 16 year old EMTs?


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## Sasha (Mar 31, 2009)

bstone said:


> What about the thousands of thousands Israeli 16 year old EMTs?



American 16 year olds and Israeli 16 year olds are two completely different sets of 16 year olds. Different exposure levels, probably different maturity levels as well.


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## bstone (Mar 31, 2009)

Sasha said:


> American 16 year olds and Israeli 16 year olds are two completely different sets of 16 year olds. Different exposure levels, probably different maturity levels as well.



So then the statement that someone under 18 has no business being an EMT is only applicable to US residents?


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## Sasha (Mar 31, 2009)

I have no opinion on the profession outside of the US. Frankly I don't care if Israeli teenagers get to play EMT. I do care that American children get to further debase the profession and play EMT. They should be in school, focusing on getting a good education as oppose to putting time in effort into being an EMT. That can wait 'til their 18.


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## AJ Hidell (Mar 31, 2009)

bstone said:


> What about the thousands of thousands Israeli 16 year old EMTs?


The age of consent in Israel is 16, making the cultural implications of such a program much different than in much of the United States.



> Which is a shame. We can learn a lot from them. A real lot. No one has more experience in MCIs.


Despite all their experience, is there any statistical evidence suggesting that Israel's M&M rate for MCIs is any better than ours?


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## JPINFV (Mar 31, 2009)

bstone said:


> Which is a shame. We can learn a lot from them. A real lot. No one has more experience in MCIs.


If we had reason to fear constant and continuous terrorist attacks then the comparison to Israel would be a good comparison. While, yes, everyone, regardless of country of residence or citizenship, should be trained to be trained to be able to provide basic emergency medical care (first aid). That said, the big difference is that a resident of Israel has a pretty good chance on actually using their training than residents of the US. I would agree with your argument if the Cold War was still going, but the reality is that we have no threat to civil defense that approaches the threat that Palestine poses to Israel.


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## medicdan (Mar 31, 2009)

I;m going to step in here quickly. I have worked in Israel, alongside 15- and 16- year old First Responders (note, they are NOT EMTs, can cannot be trained to that level until 18). Two first responders staff a normal BLS ambulance with one EMT/Driver. The EMT is responsible for stabilization on scene, and if it is anything major, calling ALS. For the normal BS/BLS, the FRs monitor vitals and patient condition en route, and complete the patient care documentation (and bill). 

The teenage FRs are specifically chosen for their maturity and leadership abilities, they are not jus random kids off the street. Israel has a strong sense of community service, and this is one of many ways these kids give back to their community, this is a hoby, but considered a job for them. 

One last note, when there is a call for a terror attack of any kind, the ambulance stops, and lets everyone under 18 off, then procedes to the scene. There is such a high percentage of the population that is trained to the EMT (+) level, they have more then enough personnel on scene, and dont want to risk injury to the teenagers. 

I need to run now, but would be glad to comment on this further, either on-forum or in private.


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## EMTinNEPA (Mar 31, 2009)

bstone said:


> So then the statement that someone under 18 has no business being an EMT is only applicable to US residents?



What are the odds that I'm going to walk outside right now and step on a landmine or find an IED?  Slim to none.  Israel may be lax on the age because, surprise surprise, they have a lot more crap to worry about.  Such as, a lot more people getting blown half to hell on a regular basis.


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## AJ Hidell (Mar 31, 2009)

bstone said:


> So then the statement that someone under 18 has no business being an EMT is only applicable to US residents?


It doesn't matter to me how old any EMT is.  I say, if you can pass the test, you can get a patch, just like any other first aid course.  You just should not be allowed to practice as any kind of responder -- paid or volly -- unless you are at least 18.


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## bstone (Mar 31, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> It doesn't matter to me how old any EMT is.  I say, if you can pass the test, you can get a patch, just like any other first aid course.  You just should not be allowed to practice as any kind of responder -- paid or volly -- unless you are at least 18.



Ok. You should tell that to the Israelis where 16 and 17 year olds on the ambulance is incredibly common.


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## reaper (Mar 31, 2009)

bstone said:


> Ok. You should tell that to the Israelis where 16 and 17 year olds on the ambulance is incredibly common.



I will take following Israels lead on this, but only if we also implement mandatory military service too!


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## Jenn701 (Mar 31, 2009)

Thanks for all the input and suggestions. We are a considerably small group my jr corp is approx. 4 girls right now. We just started the jr corp again last year and the area that I am is rather small and the town next to us has taken most of the youth that is interested in ems because they are a bigger corps. I am looking to do cpr and first aid as soon as my training officer has a big enough group senior and jrs for her to do it. I think that some of you are right to teach them the right emt way so that when they get to that point in their ems life they will be able to do the right way not the basic way. As for people who think that some shouldn't be in jr corp I disagree I've been doing this since I was fourteen and thats where I started in the jr corp and i think that is a way to seperate the people who really want to do it and the kids that really don't.


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## AJ Hidell (Mar 31, 2009)

reaper said:


> I will take following Israels lead on this, but only if we also implement mandatory military service too!


Exactly.  You do NOT want to start down this road of saying that whatever any other country does should be okay here.  That would mean lowering our age of consent to 12 and raising our entry level of EMS practice to the Masters degree level.  Each country has it's own unique concerns that often do not translate to other societies.  This is one of those cases.


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## frdude1000 (Mar 31, 2009)

I have many ideas as I am a member of an EMS explorer post.  Do things that are not common things the explorers treat, such as an MCI drill.  Do practice harder things, such as proper splinting and taking blood pressure.  It is also good to do mock calls with real life scenarios.  You could also do a training on radio/communication procedures and filling out paperwork.


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## LucidResq (Mar 31, 2009)

Arapahoe Rescue Patrol  - Over 50 years of highly successful, volunteer SAR staffed by youth with adults running the admin, training etc. Would I want high school students staffing ambulances and running pure EMS? Nah... SAR is a different animal - a lot more mindless physical labor. But having been intimately involved in this organization, as both a minor and as an adult, makes it very hard for me to completely rule out select, highly-trained youth as capable first responders. 

Also see: Dragon Slayers of Aniak, AK 

As far as ideas... call up the local coroner's office and see if they will give a tour. The one out here has been happy to give our team tours in the past. We've had the sheriff's office bring their K9s for demos, firefighters come by to teach some basics, etc. Focus on a particular disease or emergency - I'm teaching a class on diabetes this week.


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## mongio323 (Apr 4, 2010)

Having a youth corps is great.  I started as a youth corps member when I was 13.  When we were 15 we were able to take shifts and ride along with an EMT.  But in order to do this we had to have First aid and CPR and be able to do a full part-800 in under 15 min. I became a CFR at 16.

6 years later I am an EMT, Medical Assistant, Volunteer Firefighter and one of the advisors of the youth corps at my corps.

*There is no way a youth corps is a bad thing.*

As for ideas, we do the basics that an EMT would do.  We taught our kids vitals, splinting, all the equipment and how its used. We try and get the out of the building to do scenarios like mock car accidents and MCIs.  We are planning on buying fake blood and doing trauma scenarios this week since the weather is beautiful.

I hope this helps. =)


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## mycrofft (Apr 4, 2010)

*How about Teen C.E.R.T.?*

http://www.srccc.org/teen_cert.htm

One example. See DHS FEMA and your local Citizen Corps for details.

Consider an EMT certificate as one more growth and knowledge oppportunity, not the mandatory immediate entre' to EMS that some of our participants do.

PS: "Age-ists", know the average age of an American infantryman in Vietnam? Not far out of highschool, and some were under. 

Some of our folks complain that EMT is nothing more than first aid, then when someone else suggests teenagers get it, the cry arises that American kids are not up to it and it will degrade the "profession".

1. "Street EMS" as many people here seem to define it is not a profession. Ther are some kickazz professionals working as EMT's, some EMT"s are extremely professional, but the field lacks the elements of a "profession". It shouldn't be a lifestyle (for long) either. It is a demanding important job, but it is still a job.

2. I agree that in the USA the opportunities for unnecessary problems are rife and _I personally do not subscribe to teens getting into that_ drama as well as that they normally get into, _*except *_where they will be an integrated and appreciated part of the system, such as in rural (not suburban) FD's, etc.


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 4, 2010)

EMTinNEPA said:


> *steps up onto his soap-box*
> 
> Individuals under the age of 18 have no business being allowed to, being in the process of, obtaining, or holding an EMT-B certification.


Is there room enough on that soapbox for two? I was certified before I was 18 and it was a huge mistake and to this day I still cope with the negative effects of seeing way too much, way too early.  Honestly, if anything most 18 year olds are not mature enough to be taking part in any meaningful way, let alone 14, 15 and 16 year olds.



> Volunteering may work just fine for firefighting, but EMS isn't firefighting.  It's time for us to let what few volunteer organizations remain to fade away gracefully so that history will remember them fondly, but move on to what today's world requires... 24/7, guaranteed, quality assured, educated staffing.



Paid and professional/quality are not synonymous.  In fact, many times, especially once unions get involved, it is often counterproductive.  To avoid a further derail, all I am going to say that please do not assume you are correct simply based upon your experiences which are demonstrative of your ignorance by the comment about "what few volunteer organizations" are still operating.  In some states (Indiana being one), upwards of 40% of EMS at least at a first response/BLS level is provided by volunteers.  The Northeast Corridor is not exactly a good example of the rest of the country.  It's like saying that South Central LA is a good place to develop practices that would work well for Siskiyou County.  You may be over run with paid services and a dwindling number of volunteer organizations, but that is not the case in all areas.


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 4, 2010)

> When we were 15 we were able to take shifts and ride along with an EMT. But in order to do this we had to have First aid and CPR and be able to do a full part-800 in under 15 min. I became a CFR at 16.
> 
> 6 years later I am an EMT, Medical Assistant, Volunteer Firefighter and one of the advisors of the youth corps at my corps.
> 
> There is no way a youth corps is a bad thing.



Ever heard of a confirmation bias?


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## mongio323 (Apr 5, 2010)

usafmedic45 said:


> Ever heard of a confirmation bias?



yeah I have...and to refresh your memory... 

"In psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias (or confirmatory bias) is a tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions, leading to statistical errors. Confirmation bias is a type of cognitive bias and represents an error of inductive inference toward confirmation of the hypothesis under study."

However doesn't really apply.  Yeah having a 15 y/o on a rig can have some cons but the pros outnumber it.  These kids are being active in their community.  Most of them want to pursue a career in the medical field, this is just a jump start for them.  The only possible bad thing that I have encountered is having a rough call, which we have stress debriefings for, and the potential "drama" that occurs but if the bylaws are enforced then there is no problem with that.


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## mongio323 (Apr 5, 2010)

usafmedic45 said:


> Is there room enough on that soapbox for two? I was certified before I was 18 and it was a huge mistake and to this day I still cope with the negative effects of seeing way too much, way too early.  Honestly, if anything most 18 year olds are not mature enough to be taking part in any meaningful way, let alone 14, 15 and 16 year olds.
> 
> .



 I know adults who couldn't deal with a fraction of what my juniors have seen.  When I just turned 15 and was riding we had the most horrific DOA I have ever had.  Pt hit their head, bled out and was down at least 5 days in a trailer, on top of the vent and next to the heater....  My partner and I are both 19 y/o EMTs right now. Recently we assisted in a childbirth.  Back when we were 18 we had a junior on our crew who was 15 at the time and we had a code.  We brought the guy back as a team with a lot of help from the 15 y/o, who is now an officer in our junior corps.  Everyone gets a bad call now and then, some more than others.  It all depends on how you personally can tolerate it and how you cope.


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## mycrofft (Apr 5, 2010)

*One more debate I'm not getting into again.*

..............


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 5, 2010)

Sasha said:


> American 16 year olds and Israeli 16 year olds are two completely different sets of 16 year olds. Different exposure levels, probably different maturity levels as well.


+1. 



> I know adults who couldn't deal with a fraction of what my juniors have seen.



The thing is being able to "deal" with something and not having negative repercutions from seeing crap you shouldn't see at any age before your brain has fully matured are two separate issues, whether you yourself are mature enough to see it or not. 



> However doesn't really apply.



Care to explain how?  It applies because you're assuming because of your personal experience, it is a great thing and may have worked fine for you.  There's a lot of evidence to say you're wrong and that people as a group lack the maturity and other characteristics to cope with repeated negative influences at such young ages.  The fact that you're ignoring that evidence and only applying your experience (which supports your prejudice) is, by definition, a confirmation bias.  



> "In psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias (or confirmatory bias) is a tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions, leading to statistical errors. Confirmation bias is a type of cognitive bias and represents an error of inductive inference toward confirmation of the hypothesis under study."



So apparently either you can't comprehend what you read _or_ apply even basic linear thought patterns using what you've read_ or_ both.  Therefore, let me put it into a format you might understand, a protocol:

1.  You have an idea or belief.
2.  You want to prove the belief to be correct to others, such as on an internet forum.
3.  You have no or insufficient evidence to back up your stance
4.  Ignore data to the contrary or simply do not bother to look
5.  Fill your argument with:
     a. skewed data
     b. related personal anecdotes that do not meet the burden of proof
     c. irrelevant personal stories to distract the persons reading the story from the fact
         you are not actually proving your point and are probably making yourself look    
         foolish. This is called a strawman argument.
6.  When in doubt, pull the race, age or sexual discrimination card. 
7.  After consulting with the moderators (unless you'd prefer to discover the EMTLife 
        post-posting audit and review process), insulting the person who calls you on your 
        ignorance is also an option.   



> These kids are being active in their community.



That's a good thing, but there are more appropriate ways to be doing that. 



> but the pros outnumber it.



In your opinion, but not those of most with vastly more experience, education, knowledge and- most importantly- credible evidence to back up your opinion.




> Back when we were 18 we had a junior on our crew who was 15 at the time and we had a code. We brought the guy back as a team with a lot of help from the 15 y/o, who is now an officer in our junior corps.



N=1 and what is your point?  Look up and see why a single data point in isolation generally means nothing.



> My partner and I are both 19 y/o EMTs right now. Recently we assisted in a childbirth.



OK...I delivered my first baby (without any assistance) as a volunteer EMT when I was 18 and a senior in high school.  What's your point?  You were both legally credentialled as EMTs and it has nothing to do with "juniors".  I know, being young and niave, it's hard to stay focused and know what does and does not belong in a professional debate but let me give you a hint: that little anecdote you shared does not. 



> When I just turned 15 and was riding we had the most horrific DOA I have ever had.





> The only possible bad thing that I have encountered is having a rough call


Again and again....personal experience. Good rule of thumb when dealing with professional debate: "Bring evidence, or be prepared to lose the argument".  



> It all depends on how you personally can tolerate it and how you cope.



Right and legally, they don't need to be test subjects for an experiment on it.  



> which we have stress debriefings for,



Which have been proven to do more harm than good...hmm, sounds like the adults in charge of you and your juniors are not anywhere close to up to speed on anything- legally, ethically, professionally.  I feel sorry for anyone getting their start in a professional organization by experiencing the loose conglomeration of bad ideas that you outline as the practices of your corps.  I close with a hope that you are simply doing a poor job of outlining the true nature of your service.


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## mongio323 (Apr 5, 2010)

Well clearly your bias is that you couldn't deal with the experiences as a young adult....I have my opinion and you have yours...

And maybe my opinion supports why NY EMTs are damn good at what they do...cause many of them start young!


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## mongio323 (Apr 5, 2010)

usafmedic45 said:


> OK...I delivered my first baby (without any assistance) as a volunteer EMT when I was 18 and a senior in high school.  What's your point?  You were both legally credentialled as EMTs and it has nothing to do with "juniors".  I know, being young and niave, it's hard to stay focused and know what does and does not belong in a professional debate but let me give you a hint: that little anecdote you shared does not.



And by the way unless you physically gave birth to the child, then you merely assisted...Moms really the one doing the delivering..hence "ASSISTED"


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## JPINFV (Apr 5, 2010)

mongio323 said:


> Well clearly your bias is that you couldn't deal with the experiences as a young adult....I have my opinion and you have yours...
> 
> And maybe my opinion supports why NY EMTs are damn good at what they do...cause many of them start young!


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 5, 2010)

mongio323 said:


> Well clearly your bias is that you couldn't deal with the experiences as a young adult....I have my opinion and you have yours...
> 
> And maybe my opinion supports why NY EMTs are damn good at what they do...cause many of them start young!


I refuse to dignify your ignorance and ego with any further commentary since your mind is closed and you are unwilling to question your beliefs.  Welcome to EMTLife, may your stay here be long and educational for you.


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 5, 2010)

JPINFV said:


>


Amen JPINFV.


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## Trayos (May 3, 2010)

I would have to respectfully disagree on the topic of junior volunteer EMS personnel. This is not because of my intent to volunteer, but rather my own experiences with junior FF/EMT volunteers in my area. I realize that there is a maturity gap between a 16 year old and a 20 something year old, and that EMS personnel will be subjected to traumatic situations, beyond what should be expected of them in day-to-day life. However, I feel that it is damaging to assume that all kids under the age of 18 have little to no work ethic/the capacity to learn and assist others in emergency situations. Many of the volunteer EMS/FF personnel in my school are exemplary students, which has quite apparently carried over into their volunteer activities. Due to the fact that EMS is such a demanding field (physically and mentally), it would be very strange for a slacker in school/life to work up the resolve to attend 16 weeks of rigorous classes while maintaing more then an 80% average, in addition to all the regular stressors of highschool life. 
To draw a comparison (which is not applicable to all paid EMS by any means) just last week I heard two EMT-I's from a paid company, in their mid-20's, remark about how "I don't need a college education to stick a needle in your arm."
My state and city are not the exception to the rule, as seen by the actions of volunteers in Darian, CT, several states away.

http://www.post53.org/index.html

Thank you for listening.


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## fortsmithman (May 3, 2010)

My service did have a 15 yr old member  He did not go out on calls all he did was assist with training.  Nothing wrong with a youth member provided all they do is train.  So that when they do turn 18 and do take regular EMS training and become Emergency Medical Responder's, Emergency Medical Technicians, then finally Emergency Medical Technologist Paramedic (in Alberta it's technologist and not technician).


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## busmonkey (May 3, 2010)

Well, in the British Columbia Ambulance service, junior members are generally not allowed, people 16 and over, w/ Occupational First Aid Level 3, or equivalent may ride along and assist with retrieving gear for the EMT in the back. This is referred to as riding 3rd because there are always 2 Primary Care Paramedics or occasionally one Primary Care Paramedic and one EMR + the 3rd rider. I don't mind it whatsoever. I have worked with youth and I quite enjoy the system. They learn how the bus works and learn where everything is so that when they come out of highschool they are able to join the service and already have a leg up. The EMR course which you are allowed to take at 16 often requires it as part of graduating. They didn't however, allow it when the strike was on. Part of working to rule, etc.


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## usafmedic45 (May 4, 2010)

> I realize that there is a maturity gap between a 16 year old and a 20 something year old,



I would argue the gap between a 20 year old and a 27 to 28 year old is far wider.  



> However, I feel that it is damaging to assume that all kids under the age of 18 have little to no work ethic/the capacity to learn and assist others in emergency situations.



I don't believe anyone is seriouly arguing that.  Actually, most of us are saying that the kids who want to be in EMS tend to be a little too eager to help.  



> it would be very strange for a slacker in school/life to work up the resolve to attend 16 weeks of rigorous classes while maintaing more then an 80% average, in addition to all the regular stressors of highschool life.



As I've said before on other threads, EMT training is not rigorous by any means for anyone above the level of a high-functioning Downs case.  It's the human equivalent of dog obedience training: jump through a few hoops, speak at the appropriate times, etc and you eventually get a reward.


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## Trayos (May 4, 2010)

> Actually, most of us are saying that the kids who want to be in EMS tend to be a little too eager to help.


Admittedly, yes. However, would it not be of use to have eager _well-trained_ members, who would both be of use in more situations, as well as being testing platforms for new procedures/technology within their skill range? If, however, they are eager and incompletely trained, they may try and act out of their skill set in order to gain more respect/feel like a part of the team, etc. This would obviously be inappropriate, and cause many problems. Would it be wrong to train the junior members to a more advanced level, but only give them clearance to apply the techniques if the situation called for it _and _a senior EMT requested it? How many times would you have liked for another hand to assist in transporting the patient, or gather information from observers on the situation, giving you more space to perform your own duties?



> As I've said before on other threads, EMT training is not rigorous by any means for anyone above the level of a high-functioning Downs case.  It's the human equivalent of dog obedience training: jump through a few hoops, speak at the appropriate times, etc and you eventually get a reward.


In addition to the actual training, which is not exactly a walk in the park to people starting out (as evidenced by accounts here), the actual rendering of care can be difficult physically and mentally. It would not help to stand and watch, knowing that you are just so much dead weight.
Also, due to your advanced training/experience (Flight RT, EMS instructor, etc.) it would be natural to assume that an EMT-B course would look/feel incredibly easy to you. It would probably be much more difficult for somebody just starting out who would might have little more than a cursory knowledge of emergency medicine. When you took them originally, how did you feel about your EMS classes?


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## JPINFV (May 4, 2010)

Trayos said:


> I realize that there is a maturity gap between a 16 year old and a 20 something year old, and that EMS personnel will be subjected to traumatic situations, beyond what should be expected of them in day-to-day life. However, I feel that it is damaging to assume that all kids under the age of 18 have little to no work ethic/the capacity to learn and assist others in emergency situations.


To be fair, I assume that most 20 year olds have a lax work ethic and no real want or capacity to actually learn more than the bare minimum their required to. Heck look at the number of threads on any EMS board that could be answered by simply looking at their local state EMS office/authority website or a Google search. The line, though, has to be drawn someplace, though, and for a variety of reasons that line is drawn at 18. 




> Due to the fact that EMS is such a demanding field (physically and mentally), it would be very strange for a slacker in school/life to work up the resolve to attend 16 weeks of rigorous classes while maintaing more then an 80% average, in addition to all the regular stressors of highschool life.



If EMT-B training was 16 weeks of full time course work, then I'd agree. However, at 16 weeks, you're looking, at most, 10 hours a week? Granted, when I did my undergrad, 12 quarter-units (my undergrad was on the quarter system), was only 12 hours of lecture a week (3 hours per 4 unit course), however most people I knew generally held around 16 units. Additionally, there was much more information in a week of one class (3 hours of lecture), than the entire 4-5+ hours per week of EMT-B training. Additionally, I'm never impressed when people talk about maintaining X-% average. A good instructor can make an exam that will normally hit just about any average he wants based off of the material the questions cover and how the questions and answer choices are written. Two different exams on the same material can have an average of 90% or 70% depending only on the questions.


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## busmonkey (May 4, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Additionally, I'm never impressed when people talk about maintaining X-% average. A good instructor can make an exam that will normally hit just about any average he wants based off of the material the questions cover and how the questions and answer choices are written. Two different exams on the same material can have an average of 90% or 70% depending only on the questions.



I don't necesarrily agree with you there. Someone who puts themselves all into a test, can do just as well on that hard test. A lot of it is effort and prep!


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## usafmedic45 (May 4, 2010)

> Also, due to your advanced training/experience (Flight RT, EMS instructor, etc.) it would be natural to assume that an EMT-B course would look/feel incredibly easy to you.



I was speaking based on my experience as someone who did their EMT-B course as a 16 year old.  



> When you took them originally, how did you feel about your EMS classes?



My thought was "Dear God, they have really let us take care of people with this little education?".  Seriously, it's pretty bad when a 16 year old can realize there is a major deficiency. 



> In addition to the actual training, which is not exactly a walk in the park to people starting out (as evidenced by accounts here),



I would not exactly say the majority of people posting on that thread saying most people in their class passed being a valid indicator that it is rigorous.  



> However, would it not be of use to have eager well-trained members, who would both be of use in more situations, as well as being testing platforms for new procedures/technology within their skill range?



No, it would be a bad idea.  No other professional career field allows children- which the junior personnel you are talking about are, like it or not- to practice, let alone be "testing platforms".


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## Trayos (May 4, 2010)

> I was speaking based on my experience as someone who did their EMT-B course as a 16 year old.





> I would not exactly say the majority of people posting on that thread saying most people in their class passed being a valid indicator that it is rigorous.





> No, it would be a bad idea.  No other professional career field allows children- which the junior personnel you are talking about are, like it or not- to practice, let alone be "testing platforms".



Three excellent points, thank you very much! I am glad to be able to receive the educated opinion of a senior member, otherwise I would have kept on trucking down a dead-end path.


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## JPINFV (May 4, 2010)

busmonkey said:


> I don't necesarrily agree with you there. Someone who puts themselves all into a test, can do just as well on that hard test. A lot of it is effort and prep!



I'm not denying that a lot of it is studying, but not, by any means, are all tests the same, especially when you get into second degree questions.

Edit to add: For programs where the pass/fail cutoff is at 80%, do you not think that they give exams where the average grade will reasonable be expected to be above 80%?


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## busmonkey (May 4, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> I'm not denying that a lot of it is studying, but not, by any means, are all tests the same, especially when you get into second degree questions.



Agreed. I understand better now, thank you for clarifying.


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