# EMT-Driver (No Breaks?)(No Eating while Driving?)



## Vanenix (Oct 20, 2010)

There is a company that I start working that we are only allowed to take breaks while posting. The problem is what if they let us work for more than 12 hours without posting because it is a busy day, and we as a EMT-Drivers (except EMT-Attendants) have no time to eat our lunch and dinner. We drive 65-70 miles per hour on the freeway and dealing with huge traffic in downtown LA. Plus our company warned us that it is not safe to eat while driving. And so, I did not eat the whole day from 9am-10pm. On the last hour of my work, I start getting exhausted due to hunger and 11 hours of work. Then, my boss got mad at me and saying that I was crappy driving on my last hour and he warned me that he will fire me if I do not fix my driving job. I told him that I did not have time to eat lunch nor dinner and he told me that I am getting paid so I need to work my *** out. This is the first time I've worked in a company that let us work for 12 hours and they did not give us a specific time of break. I just got out from work and my stomach is hurting so bad. I am afraid having an ulcer on this job which is not healthy.


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## JPINFV (Oct 20, 2010)

It's pretty standard to not have any specific time off. Of course, on the plus side you don't take 2 30 minute unpaid breaks which gets you an hour and a half more pay (time and a half). Yes, it's common to snack while driving, and yes, where I worked we generally make time to eat when need be. However, when/where I worked (which was Saturday/Sunday), there was generally plenty of time to eat. A big tip for getting food is if you're at a hospital, grab a bite prior to clearing. Of course if you're actually riding with your boss, it might not work. Try talking


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## Aerin-Sol (Oct 20, 2010)

Is this IFT or 911? You have a few options.

1. There are foods you can easily eat while driving. CLIF bars, other types of protein bars (the Kashi go lean ones are delicious), granola bars, bananas, spring rolls, well-wrapped burritos, dried fruit, carrots. It may not be the favorite food and this is not the best solution, but you do not have to go 12 hours without eating.

2. If this is IFT and you are working 12 hour days without scheduled breaks, make your own breaks. Take two minutes and eat something when you arrive at a facility. Do you ever work with smokers? I frequently will have a bite to eat when they are on their self-assigned smoke breaks. Or you can stop by a gas station or fast food restaurant that's on the way to a facility. 

3. Eat when you're stuck in traffic and going 10 mph or at a red light.

4. File a complaint with the labour board.


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## MrBrown (Oct 20, 2010)

Oh my god Brown cannot believe what he is hearing, these labour practices are disgusting and how in the hell can any of you advocate eating while driving? Are you insane?

Sorry Your Honour for crashing into that school bus full of children and nuns who were on the way to sing at the old people's home .... I spilt burning sauce from my burrito on my pants and was trying to get it off.


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## JPINFV (Oct 20, 2010)

MrBrown said:


> Oh my god Brown cannot believe what he is hearing, these labour practices are disgusting and how in the hell can any of you advocate eating while driving? Are you insane?
> 
> Sorry Your Honour for crashing into that school bus full of children and nuns who were on the way to sing at the old people's home .... I spilt burning sauce from my burrito on my pants and was trying to get it off.



I personally, never found driving an ambulance particularly difficult. Actually, I have never found driving particularly difficult either, and my 9+  years of driving without either a ticket (that stuck, 1 where I was ruled "not responsible") or accidents (at fault or otherwise) speaks for itself. After all, we're not talking about eating steak and mashed potatoes here.


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## SanDiegoEmt7 (Oct 20, 2010)

I don't see what the big deal is...

You're paid your entire shift, because you are open to take calls your entire shift.  Pack a lunch and eat between calls.  I have never gone to work expecting to get posted for 30 minutes allowing me to sit buy and/or sit down for lunch.  Plan on buying a lunch at your own risk.

When you finish a call, grab a few bites of your sandwich,chips, what-ever-the-hell you packed for the day, then clear from the call.  Basically what JPINFV said.  Eating a little food after every call will easily get you through the day.  Not to mention if you aren't driving to the next call you can snack on the way to it.


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## Aerin-Sol (Oct 20, 2010)

MrBrown said:


> Oh my god Brown cannot believe what he is hearing, these labour practices are disgusting and how in the hell can any of you advocate eating while driving? Are you insane?
> 
> Sorry Your Honour for crashing into that school bus full of children and nuns who were on the way to sing at the old people's home .... I spilt burning sauce from my burrito on my pants and was trying to get it off.



I don't put sauce in burritos if I am going to eat them while driving. Tortillas wrapped around beans don't make a mess, and neither does anything else I listed as a suggestion. 

And obviously it involves a bit of common sense. I don't eat on the interstate or on rural country roads, but if I'm going 25 mph down a straight road or idling up to a red light, I'm not going to crash if I use one hand to lift a protein bar to my mouth, sheesh. 

But yes, those labor practices are illegal, hence number four.




SanDiegoEmt7 said:


> I don't see what the big deal is...
> 
> You're paid your entire shift, because you are open to take calls your entire shift.  Pack a lunch and eat between calls.  I have never gone to work expecting to get posted for 30 minutes allowing me to sit buy and/or sit down for lunch.  Plan on buying a lunch at your own risk.
> 
> When you finish a call, grab a few bites of your sandwich,chips, what-ever-the-hell you packed for the day, then clear from the call.  Basically what JPINFV said.  Eating a little food after every call will easily get you through the day.  Not to mention if you aren't driving to the next call you can snack on the way to it.



I'm assuming you're working in San Diego so you're under the same labour law as the OP, a labour law that requires the employer to give a meal break during a 12 hour shift unless the employee wants to waive it. I don't know why so many ambulance companies think the labour law doesn't apply to them, or why so many EMTs don't care about it.


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## SanDiegoEmt7 (Oct 20, 2010)

Aerin-Sol said:


> I'm assuming you're working in San Diego so you're under the same labour law as the OP, a labour law that requires the employer to give a meal break during a 12 hour shift unless the employee wants to waive it. I don't know why so many ambulance companies think the labour law doesn't apply to them, or why so many EMTs don't care about it.



I no longer work in SD, but I am aware of the law.  The company I worked for was not shady and made those labor provisions known to us.  Even with our dispatchers mandated to provide breaks as possible, sometimes it doesn't/can't happen.  It was a balance.  Technically they could clock you out for the lunch period provided under labor laws.  They paid us through all of our breaks as a compromise for the days when we didn't get a break.


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## JPINFV (Oct 20, 2010)

Aerin-Sol said:


> I'm assuming you're working in San Diego so you're under the same labour law as the OP, a labour law that requires the employer to give a meal break during a 12 hour shift unless the employee wants to waive it. I don't know why so many ambulance companies think the labour law doesn't apply to them, or why so many EMTs don't care about it.



Yes, it is by mutual consent, however it's a short leap from "revoking paid on-duty breaks" to "unable to meet the standards required." However, a break is still required to be given or the employee is supposed to be paid an extra hour of work.

http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/FAQ_MealPeriods.htm

In terms of IWC orders, the only thing that would apply to EMS is 24 hour crews can consent to being paid overtime after 40 hours/week instead of time and a half after 8 and double time after 12. I do wonder, though, if for paramedics making over twice the minimum wage if any companies have tried classifying the position as being exempt under a professional designation.


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## looker (Oct 20, 2010)

I am having hard time believing that you do not have downtime during the 12 hours of your shift. Were you working this shift with your boss and as such were the one always driving? Something is not adding up.


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## looker (Oct 20, 2010)

Aerin-Sol said:


> 4. File a complaint with the labour board.



Good luck with that, nothing will happen. An ambulance crew always has down time between calls, transports etc unless WWIII starts in which case you will just have to deal with it.

edit:see this
http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/FAQ_MealPeriods.htm


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## JPINFV (Oct 20, 2010)

looker said:


> Good luck with that, nothing will happen. An ambulance crew always has down time between calls, transports etc unless WWIII starts in which case you will just have to deal with it.


I had a few shifts where there was no actual downtime, however those were the exception, not the rule, as well as days where my partner and I hit a groove and ended up being into hour 8 or 10 before we even realized that we didn't have a chance to eat. Every other time, there were ways, sometimes creatively (especially if there's 2 keys to the unit), to grab a quick order of food.


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## abckidsmom (Oct 20, 2010)

Sounds like you're possibly working with the boss?  This is a little tougher to deal with, but when you're not working with him, just pack your lunch and eat it before you clear up from a call, or before you go get your next patient in the facility or whatever.

It's pretty easy to grab 10 or 15 minutes a couple of times a day just sitting in the truck waiting to go in until after you've had a break.


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## Ewok Jerky (Oct 20, 2010)

sounds like you need to pack a lunch bro.

protein bars- i bring two for every shift in case I dont get a chance to eat the following or if everything else is not enough
fruit- bananas, apples, maybe a pear 
nuts- almonds or GORP
a sandwich or two
plenty of water to wash it all down

one county I work in it is almost common practice to get a meal to go at the beginning of the shift, we go 10-8 and hit a Panda, Taquiria, or something on our way to post. and, as others said, you can always shave a few minutes off when you clear.


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## JPINFV (Oct 20, 2010)

beano said:


> one county I work in it is almost common practice to get a meal to go at the beginning of the shift, we go 10-8 and hit a Panda, Taquiria, or something on our way to post. and, as others said, you can always shave a few minutes off when you clear.


Arbys 5 for $5 deal!


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## 94H (Oct 21, 2010)

You can always ask your partner to drive if you want to eat. If I get something at a hospital or food stand many of the people I work with offer to drive so I can get some food in my stomach. 

Also, Im not sure how strict your company is with times but if we are at one of the large hospital complexes for a transport we will mark on scene and try and scarf something down in a few minutes.


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## TransportJockey (Oct 21, 2010)

Hey Brown, it's funny I was listening to EMS Garage and there was a Kiwi saying about what you've said about food in this thread  Odd coincidink


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## Cawolf86 (Oct 22, 2010)

If it's an IFT company, they are truly bottom of the barrel if they don't give you at least 30 minutes to eat ever (there are exception days) or run you for 12 hours straight. The IFT 12 hour shifts I have worked generally ran 3-6 calls a day.


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## CAOX3 (Oct 22, 2010)

Park the thing, I doubt they will close down if you take 15 mins to eat your lunch.


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## looker (Oct 22, 2010)

CAOX3 said:


> Park the thing, I doubt they will close down if you take 15 mins to eat your lunch.



Park the thing? If you take lunch at my company with out asking dispatch first you will get warning the first time, the second time you're walking. How does dispatch knows that you parked it? It's very simple, all trucks are tracked by gps.


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## JPINFV (Oct 22, 2010)

looker said:


> Park the thing? If you take lunch at my company with out asking dispatch first you will get warning the first time, the second time you're walking. How does dispatch knows that you parked it? It's very simple, all trucks are tracked by gps.



Even if the crew is posting?


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## looker (Oct 22, 2010)

Cawolf86 said:


> If it's an IFT company, they are truly bottom of the barrel if they don't give you at least 30 minutes to eat ever (there are exception days) or run you for 12 hours straight. The IFT 12 hour shifts I have worked generally ran 3-6 calls a day.



Technically the company is not required to provide you with lunch time. With that being said, i am having hard time believing that OP did not have down time while waiting for patient etc.


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## looker (Oct 22, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Even if the crew is posting?



No, only after a call ended. Basically they need to let dispatch know they are free. They either get sent to another call or they told to stay in the area etc. They can't just park the vehicle without being cleared by dispatch first after a call.


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## CAOX3 (Oct 22, 2010)

looker said:


> Park the thing? If you take lunch at my company with out asking dispatch first you will get warning the first time, the second time you're walking. How does dispatch knows that you parked it? It's very simple, all trucks are tracked by gps.



Thats a good one.

Well first, you would have a better chance of seeing God roll through your place looking for a job then me.

So your scenario is so far from reality it isnt even worth me risking carpal tunnel syndrome replying.


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## 46Young (Oct 22, 2010)

I've said it time and time again, you can get much better pay, benefits, and working conditions outside of private IFT EMS. Costco, TGIF, Best Buy, Borders, whatever. You'll be much happier if you only work for these jokers per diem, for maybe a shift a week or so, just to show activity on a resume. If you're per diem, they don't own you. You're helping them out by saving them OT and also having to pay benefits. As such, they're generally less apt to abuse you as they would a full timer. Work for them on your own terms. Don't do it FT where they own you.


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## looker (Oct 22, 2010)

46Young said:


> I've said it time and time again, you can get much better pay, benefits, and working conditions outside of private IFT EMS. Costco, TGIF, Best Buy, Borders, whatever. You'll be much happier if you only work for these jokers per diem, for maybe a shift a week or so, just to show activity on a resume. If you're per diem, they don't own you. You're helping them out by saving them OT and also having to pay benefits. As such, they're generally less apt to abuse you as they would a full timer. Work for them on your own terms. Don't do it FT where they own you.



In big cities like LA it's very easy to find someone to work full time for you doing BLS IFT being that unemployment is high. Your advice might work in good economy but for sure not now. www


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## 46Young (Oct 22, 2010)

looker said:


> In big cities like LA it's very easy to find someone to work full time for you doing BLS IFT being that unemployment is high. Your advice might work in good economy but for sure not now. www



Most private employers keep a supply of per diem employees to cover scheduling holes and OT, no? Or do some hire only FT, and mandate employees to stay an additional 8 hours or whatever, to cover holes like third services do?

I'm saying that if given the choice, it's more beneficial to the employee in BLS IFT to do only per diem for the reasons above. Alternatively, get hired FT and then drop down to per diem after a little while, assuming that option exists. Wherever I've worked, the per diem employees have always been treated better than the full timers. It's mentally easier to handle the drama and conditions if you only do it once a week or so. 

I work per diem for an IFT as well. It's actually a pretty good one. Getting back to back to back round trippers, 10-12 hours of straight running, taking crap from hospital and NH staff since they don't respect you because of who you work for, nit picking supervisors, etc. is easy to deal with if it's only once in a while. Especially when they don't own you, and you can leave at any time and not need the benefits. Your co-workers are venting, disgruntled, feel like they're stuck, and you're just chillin' making a few bucks, no big deal, enjoying life.


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## TransportJockey (Oct 22, 2010)

Cawolf86 said:


> If it's an IFT company, they are truly bottom of the barrel if they don't give you at least 30 minutes to eat ever (there are exception days) or run you for 12 hours straight. The IFT 12 hour shifts I have worked generally ran 3-6 calls a day.



The IFT company I worked for in ABQ gave zero time for lunch unless you were running back to back to back calls. They expected you to grab food while posting, and if you didn't you were SOL


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## feldy (Oct 22, 2010)

Yeah thats the same with the one im with now. While ive worked mostly nights, we post up at either the hospital(s) or a few other locations. You can get something to eat on your way to the post or while you post as long as you are in the general area. Or bring your own meal. There is no "food break" you just eat when you can where you can. The hospitals have an EMS room with a fridge and mircrowave if needed.


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## LucidResq (Oct 22, 2010)

For the first time in my life I have a job where I have a designated lunch break. It's weird to me. 

I never found it that bad not having a designated lunch. I never had a problem stuffing my face between patients, or developing the ability to hold my full bladder for hours. Yeah, sometimes I wouldn't get the chance to breathe or sit down nevermind eat and would be starving coming off work, but my patients all received top notch care and I was just happy to have a good job in such a bad economy. I didn't die or anything. 

 I hate to say but it is the nature of the job sometimes. You never know when you're going to run on something that becomes quite involved and unfortunately if you're hungry or have to go potty, you're gonna have to wait. You learn to adapt and fit meals in and go potty when you get the chance. You learn to do such things fast. 

Of course you can always file a complaint or leave, but this is something common in EMS and many other healthcare fields. Even those that do provide a designated break time, will have to snatch that break from you the second the excrement hits the fan.


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## MMiz (Oct 22, 2010)

As an EMT I didn't have designated breaks, and often ate my lunch as my partner drove to a call.  I also worked entire shifts without meals, and ate the many snacks I'd back in my backpack.

I've found that many jobs in the real world don't have breaks or lunch hours, and even today in my non-EMS career found myself eating lunch standing up in less than five minutes.  As a teacher I'm expected to work without lunch at least once a week, and for many years got UTIs because I didn't have easy access to the restroom.  I learned to pack snacks in my desk and use the restroom when I could.  It's not easy eating lunch and using the restroom in 15 minutes when your classroom is in the last trailer outside in the back.  That's life.

I know it's not easy, but eventually I gave up on complaining and learned to make the best of the situation.  In EMS I would eat before a 12 hour shift, pack snacks and bottled water, and relied far too much on gas stations for 2:00 am lunches.  It's part of the job.


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## firecoins (Oct 22, 2010)

looker said:


> Park the thing? If you take lunch at my company with out asking dispatch first you will get warning the first time, the second time you're walking. How does dispatch knows that you parked it? It's very simple, all trucks are tracked by gps.



pack a lunch and let your partner drive on the way to a call. You make sure he gets the same ability for his lunch.


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## TacoMEDIC (Oct 22, 2010)

firecoins said:


> pack a lunch and let your partner drive on the way to a call. You make sure he gets the same ability for his lunch.



Good advice


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## looker (Oct 22, 2010)

firecoins said:


> pack a lunch and let your partner drive on the way to a call. You make sure he gets the same ability for his lunch.



That is good advice and that is what many times happens. I do not know why OP boss had problem with him eating in the car during the transport without patient.


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## 46Young (Oct 22, 2010)

Some places can be understanding if you want to swing by a 7-11 or something on the way to a call. By "on the way," I mean that you're literally passing it. If a pick up time is 1400, for example, and your ETA is about 1345 or so, that leaves enough time to grab a coffee and a beff patty, taquitos, or whatever and still make the floor on time.

At my old IFT company, we could request a 10-100 (meal break) at any time. If they were busy, they would say to pick up something along the way. If you're smart about it and don't stop somewhere like a diner or thai place that takes 15 minutes to prepare your order, you should be good. If no break, bring a cooler. You can do cold cuts, PB&J, frozen berries that will half thaw at some point, veggies and a homemade greek yogurt chipotle dip, a protein shake, maybe a $5 subway footlong or two, just for some ideas. A medium sized cooler with two large ice packs should last from 12-16 hours. Nothing that you need to heat up, though, since a microwaves can be few and far between when you need them. They even sell electric coolers that plug into the car charger, for longer shifts. Perfect for that 24, or the 20 hour long distance txp. 

BTW, if you're on OT for a long distance txp, the unwritten rule is that you clear, and then have a meal before getting back on the road. The GPS won't pick up that far away. The time you spend eating pays for the meal.


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## looker (Oct 22, 2010)

46Young said:


> Some places can be understanding if you want to swing by a 7-11 or something on the way to a call. By "on the way," I mean that you're literally passing it. If a pick up time is 1400, for example, and your ETA is about 1345 or so, that leaves enough time to grab a coffee and a beff patty, taquitos, or whatever and still make the floor on time.
> 
> At my old IFT company, we could request a 10-100 (meal break) at any time. If they were busy, they would say to pick up something along the way. If you're smart about it and don't stop somewhere like a diner or thai place that takes 15 minutes to prepare your order, you should be good. If no break, bring a cooler. You can do cold cuts, PB&J, frozen berries that will half thaw at some point, veggies and a homemade greek yogurt chipotle dip, a protein shake, maybe a $5 subway footlong or two, just for some ideas. A medium sized cooler with two large ice packs should last from 12-16 hours. Nothing that you need to heat up, though, since a microwaves can be few and far between when you need them. They even sell electric coolers that plug into the car charger, for longer shifts. Perfect for that 24, or the 20 hour long distance txp.
> 
> BTW, if you're on OT for a long distance txp, the unwritten rule is that you clear, and then have a meal before getting back on the road. The GPS won't pick up that far away. The time you spend eating pays for the meal.


GPS  will pick you up even if you're in another state  i am using http://www.teletrac.net . As long as you do not have hot call and going to make eta, dispatch will not have a problem with you stopping at 7/11 for 3-5 min.


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## VirginiaEMT (Oct 23, 2010)

46Young said:


> Some places can be understanding if you want to swing by a 7-11 or something on the way to a call. By "on the way," I mean that you're literally passing it. If a pick up time is 1400, for example, and your ETA is about 1345 or so, that leaves enough time to grab a coffee and a beff patty, taquitos, or whatever and still make the floor on time.
> 
> At my old IFT company, we could request a 10-100 (meal break) at any time. If they were busy, they would say to pick up something along the way. If you're smart about it and don't stop somewhere like a diner or thai place that takes 15 minutes to prepare your order, you should be good. If no break, bring a cooler. You can do cold cuts, PB&J, frozen berries that will half thaw at some point, veggies and a homemade greek yogurt chipotle dip, a protein shake, maybe a $5 subway footlong or two, just for some ideas. A medium sized cooler with two large ice packs should last from 12-16 hours. Nothing that you need to heat up, though, since a microwaves can be few and far between when you need them. They even sell electric coolers that plug into the car charger, for longer shifts. Perfect for that 24, or the 20 hour long distance txp.
> 
> BTW, if you're on OT for a long distance txp, the unwritten rule is that you clear, and then have a meal before getting back on the road. The GPS won't pick up that far away. The time you spend eating pays for the meal.



For the life of me I can't understand why anyone would want to live like that.


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## Aerin-Sol (Oct 23, 2010)

VirginiaEMT said:


> For the life of me I can't understand why anyone would want to live like that.



Personally, I eat a lot of small meals and would rather get paid for 12 hours straight with eating something small and quick every 2-3 hours than be forced to take a 30 minute/60 minute unpaid break that consists of 5 minutes of eating +25/55 minutes of sitting watching my partner eat or reading a book in a dirty fast food restaurant or in the ambulance. 

BUT I'm a weird eater, and I kind of wonder why everyone *else* is so accepting of these conditions. There's no real reason for an IFT company, at least, to not be able to provide lunches to people who want them; they simply don't want to do so. I understand that EMS means emergencies, which mean not having guaranteed break times, but the hospital wanting to discharge a pt at 1400 instead of 1430 is not an emergency.


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## 46Young (Oct 23, 2010)

VirginiaEMT said:


> For the life of me I can't understand why anyone would want to live like that.



Some people will take those type of conditions just to be able to build a resume. For others, that's all they can be. They can't get hired by a good hospital, third service, or FD, whatever the case may be. I wouldn't want to live like that either. That's why, with post # 25, I said that I recommend only doing this per diem. I work at my IFT company maybe once or twice a month, max. If the OT at my real job dries up, I'll pull maybe 48-60 hours on the month, at the most.

Really, when you think about it, it's really not that bad. You could be doing manual labor for a living. I used to load trucks at night when I did a year of college right out of high school. What about McDonald's or something similar? You have to be doing something every minute of your shift, excluding breaks. With IFT, you can close your eyes between calls, text, talk on the phone, study, whatever. You're really only exerting youself when you're moving the pt from bed to bed, and again at the receiving facility. How hard is driving? How would you like to be a cook at a busy diner? That must be hectic and stressful. The hours suck, too. How about an ambulette driver? 8 bucks an hour is all you get for your CDL. They get worked to the bone, too. At 40-50 bucks a pop or so, the company will stack as many as they can throughout the day. How about a CNA that does all the menial tasks and gets slapped around by the nurses? Not to stereotype, but they do clean a fair amount of rear ends. There are much worse or much more labor intensive jobs out there.


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## 46Young (Oct 23, 2010)

Aerin-Sol said:


> Personally, I eat a lot of small meals and would rather get paid for 12 hours straight with eating something small and quick every 2-3 hours than be forced to take a 30 minute/60 minute unpaid break that consists of 5 minutes of eating +25/55 minutes of sitting watching my partner eat or reading a book in a dirty fast food restaurant or in the ambulance.
> 
> BUT I'm a weird eater, and I kind of wonder why everyone *else* is so accepting of these conditions. There's no real reason for an IFT company, at least, to not be able to provide lunches to people who want them; they simply don't want to do so. I understand that EMS means emergencies, which mean not having guaranteed break times, but the hospital wanting to discharge a pt at 1400 instead of 1430 is not an emergency.



When it's all about the money, as is the case in the privates, that 1400-1430 is a half hour of income opportunity. Multiply that half hour break by only ten buses. That's five hours. You can knock out three IFT's in that time, at least. How much for each txp? $300? $500? More for ALS? Time is money. A potential gain of $1500-$2500 per day (minus fuel, wear/tear and supplies), or scheduled meal breaks? That's the way it is, and that's why I chose not to ever do that on a fulltime basis.


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## JPINFV (Oct 23, 2010)

looker said:


> GPS  will pick you up even if you're in another state  i am using http://www.teletrac.net . As long as you do not have hot call and going to make eta, dispatch will not have a problem with you stopping at 7/11 for 3-5 min.



Same way it worked at So. Cal. company I worked for. In general, scheduled calls were dispatched about 20-30 minutes prior to pickup time and as long as you clocked on scene about pickup time, you were good. While there are plenty of piss-poor companies, they're equaled by the general piss-poor work ethic shown by many working at IFT companies. In general, there's plenty of time if there's a bit of flexibility on all around and generally the companies are flexible enough. It's the "ZOMG, we were dispatched to a call with a pick up time in 20 minutes. WE HAVE TO LEAVE NOW AND WAIT ON SCENE" or the "I wanna eat NOW! WHAA" people who have problems most of the time. 

I'm not saying that the OP is either of those, especially since it's very possible to get ran for an entire shift if there's excess calls or too few units, but it shouldn't be like that either day.


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## JPINFV (Oct 23, 2010)

Aerin-Sol said:


> There's no real reason for an IFT company, at least, to not be able to provide lunches to people who want them; they simply don't want to do so. I understand that EMS means emergencies, which mean not having guaranteed break times, but the hospital wanting to discharge a pt at 1400 instead of 1430 is not an emergency.



There's no real reason to dilly dally around. Especially with dialysis transports. If the dialysis clinic doesn't have a bunch of extra chairs and someplace to store patients (for lack of a better term) who can't wait in the lobby, you're now delaying someone else's 3 hour treatment, and depending on how the schedule is, someone's treatment after that. It's very easy to start a domino effect with dialysis clinics. Similarly, hospital discharges might include patients boarding in the ER waiting for that bed. Clear the patient, hospital staff can turn over the room, and you've just opened up a bed in the ER. Similarly, the same domino effect occurs in dispatch, which if an emergency call comes in, will now be delayed because everyone is at lunch or picking up the slack from the lunch breaks.


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## Aerin-Sol (Oct 23, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> There's no real reason to dilly dally around. Especially with dialysis transports. If the dialysis clinic doesn't have a bunch of extra chairs and someplace to store patients (for lack of a better term) who can't wait in the lobby, you're now delaying someone else's 3 hour treatment, and depending on how the schedule is, someone's treatment after that. It's very easy to start a domino effect with dialysis clinics. Similarly, hospital discharges might include patients boarding in the ER waiting for that bed. Clear the patient, hospital staff can turn over the room, and you've just opened up a bed in the ER. Similarly, the same domino effect occurs in dispatch, which if an emergency call comes in, will now be delayed because everyone is at lunch or picking up the slack from the lunch breaks.



So build that into the schedule. If a company can figure out that it needs 5 800-1700 trucks, 7 1100-2200 trucks, etc, then it can figure out what staffing it needs to be able to give each crew a 30 minute lunch break.  Yeah, there could be exceptions of "sorry, need you to do a dialysis run first" or "sorry, hospital Y is super-full and needs to get some patients clear first" or even "your lunch break is ending early because there's an emergency run" (I believe this is what 911 companies do?) but the only reason to never even attempt to schedule in lunch breaks is valuing money more than your employees/labour law, as 46young said. I cannot count the number of times I've been sent somewhere only to show up and have the nurse tell me they didn't request us until 30-45 minutes later.


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## looker (Oct 23, 2010)

Aerin-Sol said:


> So build that into the schedule. If a company can figure out that it needs 5 800-1700 trucks, 7 1100-2200 trucks, etc, then it can figure out what staffing it needs to be able to give each crew a 30 minute lunch break.  Yeah, there could be exceptions of "sorry, need you to do a dialysis run first" or "sorry, hospital Y is super-full and needs to get some patients clear first" or even "your lunch break is ending early because there's an emergency run" (I believe this is what 911 companies do?) but the only reason to never even attempt to schedule in lunch breaks is valuing money more than your employees/labour law, as 46young said. I cannot count the number of times I've been sent somewhere only to show up and have the nurse tell me they didn't request us until 30-45 minutes later.



No labor law is violated by not having scheduled lunch or even giving someone lunch as been posted before. Each day is different and each day schedule is different so it's nearly impossible to schedule what you suggest. You basically eat when you're down be it between calls or waiting for patient to finish his dialysis etc. That is why you should pack food with you so you can eat when you have time.


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## JPINFV (Oct 23, 2010)

Aerin-Sol said:


> So build that into the schedule. If a company can figure out that it needs 5 800-1700 trucks, 7 1100-2200 trucks, etc, then it can figure out what staffing it needs to be able to give each crew a 30 minute lunch break.  Yeah, there could be exceptions of "sorry, need you to do a dialysis run first" or "sorry, hospital Y is super-full and needs to get some patients clear first" or even "your lunch break is ending early because there's an emergency run" (I believe this is what 911 companies do?) but the only reason to never even attempt to schedule in lunch breaks is valuing money more than your employees/labour law, as 46young said. I cannot count the number of times I've been sent somewhere only to show up and have the nurse tell me they didn't request us until 30-45 minutes later.



Ok, I need you to predict how many unscheduled calls (essentially everything that isn't dialysis or prescheduled doctors appointments. This includes hospital discharges). Also, where those calls are going to originate from and where they will be going to. I've seen days where I wasn't doing anything for half the shift and then the hour changes and I'm running calls the rest of the shift and being asked to stay afterwards (personally, it was a soft sell to get me to work overtime at $20/hour) because all of a sudden everyone is calling. If the company has nursing home and hospital contracts, it's next to impossible to estimate when and which days will be busy without scheduling a pure excess of units. Of course, excess of units means more providers to pay, which means less money to go around to everyone, regardless how stingy the owner is.


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## Aerin-Sol (Oct 23, 2010)

looker said:


> No labor law is violated by not having scheduled lunch or even giving someone lunch as been posted before. Each day is different and each day schedule is different so it's nearly impossible to schedule what you suggest. You basically eat when you're down be it between calls or waiting for patient to finish his dialysis etc. That is why you should pack food with you so you can eat when you have time.



Labor laws vary by state. I know that CA, for example, has exceptions for healthcare workers, but not every state does. In my state (KY) you're legally required to have a 30 minute lunch break between 3-5 hours into your shift, even if you're a healthcare worker. The only exception is if you have a mutually agreed arrangement with your employer, which I certainly never entered in to. "You're an EMT" may be the reason given for ignoring the law, but it is not an acceptable legal arrangement, and neither is "you need to go pick up a patient." I'm not suggesting anyone refuse a run because they're 4.5 hours into their shift and want to eat, but spreading misinformation about the law is one of the reasons abuse of it is allowed to continue. 



JPINFV said:


> Ok, I need you to predict how many unscheduled calls (essentially everything that isn't dialysis or prescheduled doctors appointments. This includes hospital discharges). Also, where those calls are going to originate from and where they will be going to. I've seen days where I wasn't doing anything for half the shift and then the hour changes and I'm running calls the rest of the shift and being asked to stay afterwards (personally, it was a soft sell to get me to work overtime at $20/hour) because all of a sudden everyone is calling. If the company has nursing home and hospital contracts, it's next to impossible to estimate when and which days will be busy without scheduling a pure excess of units. Of course, excess of units means more providers to pay, which means less money to go around to everyone, regardless how stingy the owner is.



My last job was at a call center and they had an entire department to do just that. You can't predict exactly, but you can look at a number of factors, make an estimation, and go on that. For example: An average Sunday has 30 less runs than an average Friday, December has 400 more runs than October, we've had 60 more runs this week than our previous years would have predicted.  Of course, this would mean actually paying 1+ employees to run the numbers, and that's just crazy. Yes, there will always be days that are exceptions to the algorithms, but the solution to that is not refusing to attempt to use them.

There are obviously areas where *something* has been done to build in breaks and such, as evidenced by several posters' amazement at the labour practices here.


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## slloth (Oct 23, 2010)

Get a new partner.  I personally would give my partner time to eat.  If your partner wouldn't do that than you two aren't meshing for whatever reason.


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## looker (Oct 23, 2010)

Aerin-Sol said:


> Labor laws vary by state. I know that CA, for example, has exceptions for healthcare workers, but not every state does. In my state (KY) you're legally required to have a 30 minute lunch break between 3-5 hours into your shift, even if you're a healthcare worker. The only exception is if you have a mutually agreed arrangement with your employer, which I certainly never entered in to. "You're an EMT" may be the reason given for ignoring the law, but it is not an acceptable legal arrangement, and neither is "you need to go pick up a patient." I'm not suggesting anyone refuse a run because they're 4.5 hours into their shift and want to eat, but spreading misinformation about the law is one of the reasons abuse of it is allowed to continue.
> 
> .


It got nothing to do with exceptions for health care workers. If you do not give someone lunch you have to pay for that hour. 

"Q. 	My employer is not allowing me to take a meal period. Is there anything I can do about this situation?

	A. 	Yes, there is something you can do if you are covered by the meal period requirements of the law. If your employer fails to provide the required meal period, you are to be paid one hour of pay at your regular rate of compensation for each workday that the meal period is not provided"

http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/FAQ_MealPeriods.htm


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## JPINFV (Oct 23, 2010)

Looker, there's 2 seperate issues. EMS has, what I would consider, an on-call break since we aren't relieved of all of our duties during a break nor are we free to do as we please during a break (so, for example, any employer can require employees to stay on site, but that break must be paid). As such, even if a break time is available, unless the company chooses to bring the crew back to base where they are free to do as they please, it must be covered. 

However, there's additionally the following clause. "If an employer fails to provide an employee a meal period in accordance with an applicable IWC Order, the employer must pay one additional hour of pay at the employee's regular rate of pay for each workday that the meal period is not provided. IWC Orders and Labor Code Section 226.7 This additional hour is not counted as hours worked for purposes of overtime calculations." So if absolutely no down time is available during a shift then the employee is due an extra hour. However, good luck to an employee proving that they deserve an extra hour of pay.


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## 46Young (Oct 23, 2010)

My old hospital had a good thing going for us: We were paid 37.5 hours a week, which was considered FT. We were scheduled for 40 hours. This amounted to a 1/2 hour break for every 8 hours, 45 mins on 12 hours, or one hour on 16. For EMS, if we worked through w/o a break, we were paid time and a half for that missed break. If we were taken off of break early, we got that break period as OT as well. If it's slow enough for breaks, the health system saved up to 2 1/2 hours a week per employee in pay. If they were busy, the revenue from the calls more than paid for that time and a half.


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