# Family of slain EMT seeks $10 million



## MMiz (Apr 10, 2009)

*Family of slain EMT seeks $10 million*

JEFFERSON COUNTY, N.Y. -- The family of a Cape Vincent EMT murdered earlier this year is seeking $10 million from about ten local government and emergency agencies.

The family of Mark Davis filed a notice of claim last week for $10 million, setting up a possible wrongful death lawsuit. Davis was killed on January 30th while responding to a medical call at a home in Cape Vincent.

*Read more!*


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## reaper (Apr 10, 2009)

MMiz said:


> *Family of slain EMT seeks $10 million*
> 
> JEFFERSON COUNTY, N.Y. -- The family of a Cape Vincent EMT murdered earlier this year is seeking $10 million from about ten local government and emergency agencies.
> 
> ...



Yeah, Because we know it was the all their fault that he was killed!!!!!


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## Veneficus (Apr 10, 2009)

Maybe they are hoping the agencies will settle because it will be cheaper than a fight.


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## Sasha (Apr 10, 2009)

I don't get why people sue.

How is the money going to bring their loved one back? They're disrespecting his memory by making a profit from his death.


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## EMTinNEPA (Apr 10, 2009)

Sasha said:


> I don't get why people sue.
> 
> How is the money going to bring their loved one back? They're disrespecting his memory by making a profit from his death.



To quote the great Dr. Cox...

"People aren't candies.  Do you know what they are?  B@st@rds.  B@st@rd-coated b@st@rds with b@st@ard filling."


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## Airwaygoddess (Apr 10, 2009)

*What can it do.........?*

It seems like a doubled edge sword about a lawsuit, the money will not bring their loved one back, but did he have a family to support? and if any of this money would go towards a worthy cause, i.e. a scholarship.  It is a sad case and a lesson to be learned about keeping ourselves safe so we can come home at night to our loved ones......... -_-


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## Ridryder911 (Apr 10, 2009)

Unfortunately, it is litigation that changes policy and procedures. No money will not bring him back, but at the same time his family maybe provided financial funds. Amazing, if he was fire or police; he would have had some form of governmental funding to pay to his survivors. 

Maybe a million dollar claim will recognize us as professionals that respond more often and is in just as much danger as fellow responders. 

In my own state we had to lobby for a $5000 death benefit and guess what? We had to pay for it! Yeah, $10 additional license fee for a miserable five grand.. and what is worse is LEO and Firefighters automatically get a state $10,000 funding and no... they do not have to pay. Not, quite fair especially since there is federal funding as well. 

Hopefully, this will cause a stir to automatically provide benefits for those in EMS. Maybe this can be settled for a reasonable price and provide for his family without burden to tax payers. 

R/r 911


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## reaper (Apr 10, 2009)

I do not know who he worked for. If he worked for a county government system, then he would qualify for the federal death benefit that Fire,police and EMS can get. But, it only is available for government workers (ie: city,county,state, or federal)


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## Ridryder911 (Apr 10, 2009)

reaper said:


> I do not know who he worked for. If he worked for a county government system, then he would qualify for the federal death benefit that Fire,police and EMS can get. But, it only is available for government workers (ie: city,county,state, or federal)



Not always correct. Federal does not cover those if it is solely EMS. I had thought it did as well but when we investigated (see my above post) for our State benefit bill we found out differently.

R/r 911


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## enjoynz (Apr 10, 2009)

In New Zealand it's normally the families bequeath money to the EMS services, not trying to take it from them.
I know this class it different...with a EMT down.
But even still, as the others say, all the money in the world is not going to bring their loved one back.
And if it was a case of doing some good with the money...use it to work a better way of protecting other EMS personnel within your area!
Like that would ever happen! 

Cheers Enjoynz


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## reaper (Apr 10, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> Not always correct. Federal does not cover those if it is solely EMS. I had thought it did as well but when we investigated (see my above post) for our State benefit bill we found out differently.
> 
> R/r 911



I will talk to our HR guy. I know that this was looked into and was told that EMS qualifies, if it is a County government third service. This was for a $100k death benefit, but was for LODD only. I will see where he got his info from.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Apr 10, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> Unfortunately, it is litigation that changes policy and procedures. No money will not bring him back, but at the same time his family maybe provided financial funds. Amazing, if he was fire or police; he would have had some form of governmental funding to pay to his survivors.
> 
> Maybe a million dollar claim will recognize us as professionals that respond more often and is in just as much danger as fellow responders.
> 
> ...



PERFECT!!!  EMS jobs are hard enough.  It's somthing that we willingly take on knowing that we are often underpaid, underappreciated, and over worked.  The only ones who should ever profit from the death of an emergency worker are:

1. The people he saved risking his life.  Obviously not with money.
2. The family who depended on him for their livelihood.
3  Other Emergency Workers who can have their sacrifice made known to the people they spend sleepless nights helping.

Only the wife/husband and children they leave behind should see some type of REWARD for the sacrafice they too have made in serving the community.


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## Scott33 (Apr 10, 2009)

At the risk of being accused of dancing over this young mans grave, I would agree that there is little point in suing. Moreover, I hope that it is thrown out of court and no moneys are awarded (fat chance). Who is being sued here? And more importantly why???

As far as I am aware he was a volly EMT, who was in the wrong place, at the wrong time. Not for me to say he should have backed off sooner having seen the danger escalate as I wasn't there, but therein lies the occasional risks with what we do. Why should innocent members of the public have to foot the bill for the greed of his family?

And why is it always obscene amounts of money which has no bearing of what the average Joe could expect to earn in ones lifetime? 10 Million, get a grip! 

I hope his family get what they are legally entitled to, which I think may be something in the region of 10 - 50 thousand or so for NY state vollies killed in the LOD.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Apr 10, 2009)

Scott33 said:


> And why is it always obscene amounts of money which has no bearing of what the average Joe could expect to earn in ones lifetime? 10 Million, get a grip!
> 
> I hope his family get what they are legally entitled to, which I think may be something in the region of 10 - 50 thousand or so for NY state vollies killed in the LOD.



PERFECT!!!  I can understand the thought behind repaying the family for the service that this man provided his community, but how dare they smear his sacrafice by trying to gain 10Million of it!!!  I'd be willing to go as high as 50-75 thousand, no more.


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## Scott33 (Apr 10, 2009)

It's one of those "impossible to put a fugure on" situations. Almost seems perverse to put a specific monetary figure on a lost loved one. Perhaps if they stated what our, I mean the State's, money would be used for I may be more supportive.

However, over time the family will realize that material things like a million-dollar security system in their home (assuming they are all now in fear for their lives), a second home in Florida (to get away from the stress of living in the first one) and a 50 foot catamaran (it's what he would have wanted) is never going to replace what they have lost.


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## Aidey (Apr 10, 2009)

Airwaygoddess said:


> ... but did he have a family to support?



Honestly, that is what life insurance is for. I don't mean to be callous, but that is why offering life insurance is a common benefit, and if he didn't have the forethought to get it I don't see how it's everyone else's fault.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Apr 10, 2009)

Aidey said:


> Honestly, that is what life insurance is for. I don't mean to be callous, but that is why offering life insurance is a common benefit, and if he didn't have the forethought to get it I don't see how it's everyone else's fault.



The consideration here also is that if he is a volunteer, what provisoins are made here?  I can relate.  I am a volunteer for the County Sheriff's Search and Rescue Team.  In California we are covered by the Disaster Relief Workers Compensation Fund.  In otherwords, if we are injured on the job, even as volunteers, all medical care is covered by the state.  That ranges from losing a limb to getting poison oak.  While I am not completely familiar with the way that works, I would assume that it also covers death.  The question is, what is this man owed based apon the provisions available for emergencyh workers (volunteer or not) in his area.  Past that, I agree, life insurence is his resposibility so that his family can have a little something if he dies.  Having said that, I do not carry life insurence (who could afford it on my wages) and would expect my state to do something to if I should go down while on duty as a volunteer; otherwise the risk is just too great to give of myself that way.


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## DT4EMS (Apr 10, 2009)

I have a call into the family's attorney. Let's see if he calls me back.


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## Ridryder911 (Apr 10, 2009)

Aidey said:


> Honestly, that is what life insurance is for. I don't mean to be callous, but that is why offering life insurance is a common benefit, and if he didn't have the forethought to get it I don't see how it's everyone else's fault.



I am really surprised that those in EMS are criticizing? Seriously, why should an officer or firefighter receive monies if we cannot as well? All were doing their job, except the Paramedic family will not be compensated.. Is that fair? Every LEO and Firefighter knows the risks alike those in EMS. We perform as much risks and endangerment only we do not get the credit or benefits if something goes wrong. 

He was shot & killed in the line of duty. Pay up. If the area would take care of their own, then they would not have to sue. I hope they get every penny, maybe things will change. The family deserves it. Was he worth $10 million ? Sure that is a dream figure to bargain with. 

How much life insurance policy do you have at work? Yeah.. before spouting off put up. I know mine is $35,000 and I all can get is an additional $35,000 I pay for .. wow $70,000 almost a years salary. This is much more than most EMS services around. Now figure funeral expense will be the least $12,000 were now down to $58,000 not including medical expenditures and other costs such as attorney fees, probate fees and court costs is another $3-5,000. So now, we are down to about $50,000 How long can your family live on the one income or like mine .. the sole income. Yeah, it wouldn't last long. Now compare this to other workers such as LEO and Firefighters... and they still asks for donations on t.v. when an occurrence happens. 


R/r 911


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## Mountain Res-Q (Apr 10, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> I am really surprised that those in EMS are criticizing? Seriously, why should an officer or firefighter receive monies if we cannot as well? All were doing their job, except the Paramedic family will not be compensated.. Is that fair? Every LEO and Firefighter knows the risks alike those in EMS. We perform as much risks and endangerment only we do not get the credit or benefits if something goes wrong.
> 
> He was shot & killed in the line of duty. Pay up. If the area would take care of their own, then they would not have to sue. I hope they get every penny, maybe things will change. The family deserves it. Was he worth $10 million ? Sure that is a dream figure to bargain with.
> 
> ...



I like you.  Your smart.  Equal pay for eqaul risk.  What a concept.  And they say EMS is not the red headed stepchild.


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## reaper (Apr 10, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> I am really surprised that those in EMS are criticizing? Seriously, why should an officer or firefighter receive monies if we cannot as well? All were doing their job, except the Paramedic family will not be compensated.. Is that fair? Every LEO and Firefighter knows the risks alike those in EMS. We perform as much risks and endangerment only we do not get the credit or benefits if something goes wrong.
> 
> He was shot & killed in the line of duty. Pay up. If the area would take care of their own, then they would not have to sue. I hope they get every penny, maybe things will change. The family deserves it. Was he worth $10 million ? Sure that is a dream figure to bargain with.
> 
> ...



Actually my life insurance is very good. I recieve $80k for free, through work. I then have an additional $200k, that was purchased pretty cheap through work.

I agree that we should have LODD compensation, but not 10 million worth!


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## Sasha (Apr 10, 2009)

> I hope they get every penny, maybe things will change.



Yeah, let's bankrupt the EMS agency he worked with. That'll sure bring around positive changes and make things better.


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## Scott33 (Apr 10, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> He was shot & killed in the line of duty. Pay up. If the area would take care of their own, then they would not have to sue. I hope they get every penny, maybe things will change. The family deserves it. Was he worth $10 million ? Sure that is a dream figure to bargain with.



Does this apply to _everyone_ shot and killed in the line of duty?

You know where I am going with this don't you? Places like Iraq and Afghanistan. How many families of those killed would have the balls to ask for compensation to the tune of $10,000,000 for their loss. 

I will say again, where is the justification in seeking out even a fraction of that figure? Was the young man who was killed already a multi-millionaire with an extravagant lifestyle and family to support? Is this figure consistent with what he could have realistically have hoped to have earned in his lifetime? What is it with people who can sell out their feelings for their loved ones for excessive monetary gain? As I said, his family fully deserve to be compensated accordingly per the policies already in place under his name.

I know what you are getting at with putting compensation in line with other professions - as a whole, but throwing obscene amounts of money at people is not the answer to making EMS a "credible" profession. As you have said many times, it is down to more education.


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## Aidey (Apr 11, 2009)

Rid, I did not say he doesn't deserve LODD benefits. My comment was strictly in response to the suggestion that suing for money was a way for the family to be taken care of. Yes it is, but with some forethought life insurance does that too. People are not restricted to only the life insurance their work offers, you can purchase it privately also. Where I work I can purchase twice my annual salary pretty easily. I believe you can purchase up to 10 times your annual salary as the maximum. 

No, Life Insurance isn't going to take care of a family indefinitely, but I don't think it should either. It's not supposed to be a band aid that you can slap on the situation so things can keep going exactaly as they were. People need to accept that when someone dies, things are going to change. Life insurance can make that easier by paying for funeral expenses, and buying some time while the family sorts out their options. 

Yes it's unfair that Fire and Police, which are similar professions have extensive LODD benefits but that is not what my comment was in regards to.


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## Aidey (Apr 11, 2009)

Just to add, I just checked my benefits and for Life insurance I receive twice my annual salary free thorough work, and I purchased an additional $30,000 for about a dollar a pay period. I also have up to twice my annual salary in Accidental Death and Permanent Disability insurance free through my employer, and I could have chosen more if so inclined.


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## Ridryder911 (Apr 11, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Yeah, let's bankrupt the EMS agency he worked with. That'll sure bring around positive changes and make things better.



If $10 million bankrupts them from their insurance reserve, then they need better management as it is already appearant. One always aims for the stars and if they hit the moon... You can always go lower but to ask higher? 



Aidey said:


> Just to add, I just checked my benefits and for Life insurance I receive twice my annual salary free thorough work, and I purchased an additional $30,000 for about a dollar a pay period. I also have up to twice my annual salary in Accidental Death and Permanent Disability insurance free through my employer, and I could have chosen more if so inclined.



Your lucky! Most EMS services do not offer such an amount. Hence part of the problem. My main point is hopefully, this will awaken city, county, State administrators that EMS should be counted as a provider and if tragedy occurs they should be entitled to the same benefits as other first responders in which cases most assume but EMS is not and it is not fair. 

R/r 911


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## reaper (Apr 11, 2009)

Rid,

 Take a look at this link. It lists EMS as eligible for the benefits?

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/BJA/grant/psob/psob_death.html


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## Ridryder911 (Apr 11, 2009)

reaper said:


> Rid,
> 
> Take a look at this link. It lists EMS as eligible for the benefits?
> 
> http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/BJA/grant/psob/psob_death.html



Problem alies is most EMT's are not sanctioned or defined as a "public safety officers". It is true if they were FD and in an ambulance (primary employment of being a Fire Service). Hence part of the problem with retirement issues as well as most states have an insurance and retirement plan for those that are defined under the guidelines. 

I can assure you as far as I know; we investigated this thoroughly and would not have passed a bill to increase our license fee for a mere $5 grand. I had thought it covered originally too; but was informed differently after an application was denied in reference to a medic being killed on a response.

I do wish it was more specific to place .. "and at the time those that were directly involved with rescue and medical care".. so all would be covered. This would clarify and definitely involve us in EMS. 

Thanks for the info though.. I will try to investigate more. Maybe something we can change or clarify as a group. 

R/r 911


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## Aidey (Apr 11, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> *Your lucky! *Most EMS services do not offer such an amount. Hence part of the problem. My main point is hopefully, this will awaken city, county, State administrators that EMS should be counted as a provider and if tragedy occurs they should be entitled to the same benefits as other first responders in which cases most assume but EMS is not and it is not fair.
> 
> R/r 911



My lucky what? (Sorry Rid, I had to )

Anyway, I have no idea if we have the benefits we have because of our union, or because of the company itself is actually that generous. I would have to compare with someone working for the same company in a different state to find out.


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## medic417 (Apr 12, 2009)

Perhaps they had a policy that prevented this EMT from having what was needed to defend himself?  Perhaps they were way to often required to enter known dangerous situations w/o anyone or anything to dend themselves with?  Maybe the family wants EMS to be able to defend themselves and hopes this will lead to that?

How old was this EMT?  What could he be expected to earn at his real job rather than this hobby?  His family should have the right to recoup lost income as should all of our familys if we die either paid or hobby.  

As to life insurance if you are the sole provider for your family I suggest you have enough to pay off all debt plus 10 years of salary and if kids enough to cover college for the kids.  If you are under 30 you can get a million dollar policy for around $20 a month and higher amounts are not much more.  Look at selectqoute, intelliqoute, reliaqoute or other to compare rates.  

Paid or hobby don't leave your family in the lurch if you die doing EMS or any thing else.


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## reaper (Apr 12, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Perhaps they had a policy that prevented this EMT from having what was needed to defend himself?  Perhaps they were way to often required to enter known dangerous situations w/o anyone or anything to dend themselves with?  Maybe the family wants EMS to be able to defend themselves and hopes this will lead to that? *Or perhaps he let a psych pt out of his sight???*
> How old was this EMT?  What could he be expected to earn at his real job rather than this hobby?  His family should have the right to recoup lost income as should all of our familys if we die either paid or hobby.
> 
> As to life insurance if you are the sole provider for your family I suggest you have enough to pay off all debt plus 10 years of salary and if kids enough to cover college for the kids.  If you are under 30 you can get a million dollar policy for around $20 a month and higher amounts are not much more.  Look at selectqoute, intelliqoute, reliaqoute or other to compare rates.  *I have had Life insurance since I was 25. There is no where that you will get a million dollar policy for $20 a month! More like $120 a month and some people can't afford that!*
> Paid or hobby don't leave your family in the lurch if you die doing EMS or any thing else.



My life insurance is not there to support my family forever. It is there to help them get by, until they can make it on their own and pay for college.


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## medic417 (Apr 12, 2009)

reaper said:


> My life insurance is not there to support my family forever. It is there to help them get by, until they can make it on their own and pay for college.



I have a million plus and costs me me about $35 a month from a highly rated company, picked up about 3 years ago and I'm an old fart.  So you either have major health or other risks or you have not used sources such as I listed.


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## reaper (Apr 12, 2009)

I have researched it over the years. I have found two companies that it was that cheap. Both have very bad reps of fighting tooth and nail to not pay off. Both companies I have personally seen not pay off on two fellow workers policies.

If you found a good one, that would be great. I just hope your family gets the benefit of it's use. I continue to look for good policies all the time.


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## medic417 (Apr 12, 2009)

reaper said:


> I have researched it over the years. I have found two companies that it was that cheap. Both have very bad reps of fighting tooth and nail to not pay off. Both companies I have personally seen not pay off on two fellow workers policies.
> 
> If you found a good one, that would be great. I just hope your family gets the benefit of it's use. I continue to look for good policies all the time.



Try http://www.selectquote.com/home9/jsp/term-life-insurance.html and you will see low rates with highly respected companys unless you smoke, are old, have heart/lung condition, or obese.  The company I am with is one of the most reputable insurance companys in the USA.  

Now perhaps you are talking about a whole life policy that builds cash value over time vs term life that only pays upon death for full value? Big difference in monthly payments.  I went term as I make more off individual investments vs what I would make with whole life cash value so makes more sense for me to just get term and invest separately the difference in cost.

http://www.smartmoney.com/personal-finance/insurance/term-or-whole-life-8011/


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## medic417 (Apr 13, 2009)

It sickens me that so many gripe about this family of EMT that gave his life to helping people trying to get what they need to take care of themselves.


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## reaper (Apr 13, 2009)

medic417 said:


> It sickens me that so many gripe about this family of EMT that gave his life to helping people trying to get what they need to take care of themselves.



Why? We are not griping about him or his duties. We are griping about a family trying to get rich off his death. Suing people that had no control of what happened. That is the sorry excuse that people use to make money!:unsure:


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## medic417 (Apr 13, 2009)

reaper said:


> Why? We are not griping about him or his duties. We are griping about a family trying to get rich off his death. Suing people that had no control of what happened. That is the sorry excuse that people use to make money!:unsure:



Getting rich, I think not.  A lawsuit for 10 million will end up settled for maybe a million.  Deduct lawyers and other expenses end up with $500,000 maybe.  Not much for losing you life doing for your community.  It's the least the community could do for him and his family since they asked so much of him as a volunteer and gave nothing in return.


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## Scott33 (Apr 13, 2009)

I have just noticed some smallprint on the back of my volly ID card which mentions the Volunteer Ambulance Workers Benefit Law, as well as my Policy Number. 

Assuming this is a State-wide requirement of the volly agencies, as well as the benefits of LOSAP in the event of an LODD, it's not like the family are being left with nothing.

Sorry, but the whole lawsuit thing smells of _Annanicholism_ to me.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Apr 13, 2009)

Scott33 said:


> I have just noticed some smallprint on the back of my volly ID card which mentions the Volunteer Ambulance Workers Benefit Law, as well as my Policy Number.
> 
> Assuming this is a State-wide requirement of the volly agencies, as well as the benefits of LOSAP in the event of an LODD, it's not like the family are being left with nothing.
> 
> Sorry, but the whole lawsuit thing smells of _Annanicholism_ to me.



Many states have similar laws for volunteers.  In California volunteer firefighters and SAR guys are signed up for the "Disaster Relief Workers Compensation Fund".  It has ben used by members of my team from time to time for treatments for things ranging from losing two front teeth on a rope rescue to geting poison oak.  It also covers death, I just don't know how much my or yours or thise guys state covers him for.  1o mil is still too much and that's why the posters of this thread are split.  If they had asked for 50,000 or 100,000 and were refused we would probably all be on board.

The question for me is, would this brave man want his family to be taking to court the agency he loved so much so as to volunteer to risked it all?


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## medic417 (Apr 13, 2009)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> Many states have similar laws for volunteers.  In California volunteer firefighters and SAR guys are signed up for the "Disaster Relief Workers Compensation Fund".  It has ben used by members of my team from time to time for treatments for things ranging from losing two front teeth on a rope rescue to geting poison oak.  It also covers death, I just don't know how much my or yours or thise guys state covers him for.  1o mil is still too much and that's why the posters of this thread are split.  If they had asked for 50,000 or 100,000 and were refused we would probably all be on board.
> 
> The question for me is, would this brave man want his family to be taking to court the agency he loved so much so as to volunteer to risked it all?



Holy crap you cost me my family and their income and expect me to bury them and try and survive w/o their income on 50,000 - 100,000.  :wacko:

I would hope an agency would have the decency if they want me to work for free to at least provide for my family if I die.  Honestly the family should have been approached and offered money w/o them needing to get a lawyer.  Plus do we know whether this service and community had a history of expecting the EMT's to go into potentially dangerous situations w/o LE support?

Yes I would expect my family to get paid for my death and if it was not offered then I would expect them to sue to get it.


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## reaper (Apr 13, 2009)

So all the "I do it to help my community" goes out the window with death? Anyone that does this job knows the risks involved. This was not unexpected. That is why those of us that do this for a living take care of making sure our families are taken care of.

The agency and community did not force him into the situation. He choose this on his own free will. They could have asked for $200k and it probably would have been given without a court fight. 10 million shows greed intent. The agency or community are not responsible for his family or yours. You choose to do the job, you take the risk. That is why most places hold benefit fund raisers. They try to get the community to help the family, but there is not an obligation to help!


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## Scott33 (Apr 13, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Holy crap you cost me my family and their income and expect me to bury them and try and survive w/o their income on 50,000 - 100,000.  :wacko:



How much financial support do you think was provided by a 25-year-old who worked part-time as an EMT?

Let's assume his his hourly rate was $12 per hour and he worked 20 hours per week = ~ $12,500 per year. To earn $10,000,000 (which is what they are suing for, in spite of the fact the final sum may be beaten down) he would need to work until he was *825 years old*

Not trying to put the poor guy down, I really do feel sorry for him in what was a tragic event. Just trying to put these obscene figures into proportion, and highlight the greed associated with mourning families who believe money can help with their loss.

Any ideas why they aren't suing the accused?


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## Scott33 (Apr 13, 2009)

reaper said:


> So all the "I do it to help my community" goes out the window with death? Anyone that does this job knows the risks involved. This was not unexpected. That is why those of us that do this for a living take care of making sure our families are taken care of.
> 
> The agency and community did not force him into the situation. He choose this on his own free will. They could have asked for $200k and it probably would have been given without a court fight. 10 million shows greed intent. The agency or community are not responsible for his family or yours. You choose to do the job, you take the risk. That is why most places hold benefit fund raisers. They try to get the community to help the family, but there is not an obligation to help!



Valid points all round


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## medic417 (Apr 13, 2009)

Scott33 said:


> How much financial support do you think was provided by a 25-year-old who worked part-time as an EMT?
> 
> Let's assume his his hourly rate was $12 per hour and he worked 20 hours per week = ~ $12,500 per year. To earn $10,000,000 (which is what they are suing for, in spite of the fact the final sum may be beaten down) he would need to work until he was *825 years old*
> 
> ...



See you fail to factor in him actually getting a true profession.  You fail to factor in higher wages. At 25 he easily would work another 40 years.  Lets say he goes Paramedic.  In my area they make over $50000 a year working 12 shifts.  So then he also works part time for another service.  Not factoring pay raises he is gatting $75000 a year X 40 years = $3 million.  Factor in raises or even higher paid professions he might have been looking to moving to and it would easily be over $10 million.  Sorry to say my figures are much more realistic than yours. 

And reaper we know the risks but also should expect our familys will be rewarded for our sacrifice.


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## Scott33 (Apr 13, 2009)

medic417 said:


> See you fail to factor in him actually getting a true profession.  You fail to factor in higher wages. At 25 he easily would work another 40 years.  Lets say he goes Paramedic.  In my area they make over $50000 a year working 12 shifts.  So then he also works part time for another service.  Not factoring pay raises he is gatting $75000 a year X 40 years = $3 million.  Factor in raises or even higher paid professions he might have been looking to moving to and it would easily be over $10 million.  Sorry to say my figures are much more realistic than yours.



Sure, or he could have won a hundred million on lotto, so why not up the stakes based on that possibility.

Sorry your argument holds very little water, and is based on anything between conjecture and fantasy. But, as long as there are people who subscribe to the 101 _"what if this were to happen - even though it didn't"_ argument, such as yours, Lawyers will continue to be among the highest paid professionals around.

I have to wonder if you are as avid with your support of every soldier who has ever stood on a landmine, for example, who could argue that they have been robbed at the opportunity of 5-star General, and whos pension and benefits (if you are to believed) should be based upon 5-star general salary and lifestyle, and nothing else.


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## medic417 (Apr 14, 2009)

Scott33 said:


> Sure, or he could have won a hundred million on lotto, so why not up the stakes based on that possibility.
> 
> Sorry your argument holds very little water, and is based on anything between conjecture and fantasy. But, as long as there are people who subscribe to the 101 _"what if this were to happen - even though it didn't"_ argument, such as yours, Lawyers will continue to be among the highest paid professionals around.
> 
> I have to wonder if you are as avid with your support of every soldier who has ever stood on a landmine, for example, who could argue that they have been robbed at the opportunity of 5-star General, and whos pension and benefits (if you are to believed) should be based upon 5-star general salary and lifestyle, and nothing else.



If a soldier is wounded or killed family should be taken care of, those that they were fighting for should w/o being asked take care of their family.  

My example of wages were factual you throwing lottery is the bogus example, as is 5 star general.  I did not give him a high paying job, I gave him standard Paramedic wage.  Lawyers should not have been needed.  

The service and the community should have showed up with money in hand long before now.  But I guess they are so used to getting everything free they just assume they should not pay anything now either.  Just another reason volunteer EMS needs to disappear.


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## reaper (Apr 14, 2009)

If you want to be realistic, I would put gross pay at $36-40k a year. Add $20k a year for parttime job.

$60K x 40 years of work= 2.4 million. The family should not be provided for 40 years worth. They should be provided maybe 1-2 years worth, to have time to adjust. So, we could say $120k would be good. Now take out taxes that would have been paid. That leaves $96k for the family. 

That is about what I stated he should receive. Then again, that is what a decent life insurance would pay out too!!


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## Scott33 (Apr 14, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Just another reason volunteer EMS needs to disappear.



Least we agree on that.


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## medic417 (Apr 14, 2009)

reaper said:


> If you want to be realistic, I would put gross pay at $36-40k a year. Add $20k a year for parttime job.
> 
> $60K x 40 years of work= 2.4 million. The family should not be provided for 40 years worth. They should be provided maybe 1-2 years worth, to have time to adjust. So, we could say $120k would be good. Now take out taxes that would have been paid. That leaves $96k for the family.
> 
> That is about what I stated he should receive. Then again, that is what a decent life insurance would pay out too!!



I disagree.  Why should his family suffer?  Why should they be stuck with the house and car payments that were loans based on his income?  Honestly I can not imagine leaving my family with only 2 years of salary.  That would be selfish on my part.  Why should the kids do w/o college?   

Many financial advisers suggest having 10 years of salary and enough to pay off all debts as a minimum.  So if we back off the 40 and do the math at 10 years plus current debt you get back to around the amount I said they would get after this gets settled, about $500,000.  Sadly when forced to sue you have to start high so that you can get a reasonable settlement.  If they started at $500,000 they would be doing good to get an offer of $50,000.  

Again the service and the community failed royally by not immediately taking care of this.


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## Sasha (Apr 14, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Why should the kids do w/o college?



Sorry, this really has nothing to do with the thread, but it's a pet peeve.

You're assuming the parents were going to pay for college for them, and you don't have to have your parents pay for you to go to college. They have grants and loans and scholarships for that reason, to make college obtainable to everyone and not just those with rich mommys and daddys.

A death of a family member shouldn't be your ticket to easy street and relieve you from having to work for 10 years.


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## medic417 (Apr 14, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Sorry, this really has nothing to do with the thread, but it's a pet peeve.
> 
> You're assuming the parents were going to pay for college for them, and you don't have to have your parents pay for you to go to college. They have grants and loans and scholarships for that reason, to make college obtainable to everyone and not just those with rich mommys and daddys.



Actually it is a reasonable request that is often included in law suits.


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## Sasha (Apr 14, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Actually it is a reasonable request that is often included in law suits.



Just because it's often included in lawsuits doesn't mean it's reasonable. It insinuates that because the father died they will never be able to go to college. That's a myth. Money's out there, you just gotta get off your butt and fill out the form.


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## medic417 (Apr 14, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Just because it's often included in lawsuits doesn't mean it's reasonable. It insinuates that because the father died they will never be able to go to college. That's a myth. Money's out there, you just gotta get off your butt and fill out the form.



Not everyone is approved for grants and student loans.  Plus in the next ten years there may be even fewer sources of funding available for education.  So why not have a fund established for the kids education?  Other than some that had to do it on there own being bitter that someone could get education w/o worrying about money there is no reason to oppose it.


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