# Man Dies Outside of ER Entrance



## ffemt8978 (Feb 11, 2011)

http://abcnews.go.com/US/oregon-man-dies-emergency-room-delay-receiving-hospital/story?id=12894214



> Two officers began administering CPR to the unconscious man while two other police officers went into the emergency room to alert hospital staff about the accident. Police said that they were told by ER staff that they needed to call 911 for an ambulance



Somebody has some explaining to do over this one.


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## JPINFV (Feb 11, 2011)

Relevant quote from the Hospital...



> "We advised the officer immediately to call 911 because EMS have the mobile equipment to respond to a car accident," Leach said in the statement.
> 
> Leach said that along with calling 911, hospital staff immediately began mobilizing and sent a paramedic and two first responders to the scene right away.



The other stories I've read on this say that the two first responders were both RNs.

So, why are the police lying about the hospital not sending resources?


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## Aidey (Feb 11, 2011)

Not the first time or the last time. Most, if not all of the hospitals I've worked with have similar policies. 

Frankly, it sounds like the guy was dead and the hospital staff dragging him inside wouldn't have changed a darn thing. 

I also like that the hospital admin had the balls to step up and say that he should have called 911. Chances are he still would have died, but if you are that close to death you should not be driving.


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## lex (Feb 12, 2011)

Sounds eerily familliar to a case that was all over the Canadian air waves about two years ago. 

Tried to find some articles to post links but didn't have any luck hunting them down. A man was found outside of City Hopsital in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan a few minutes before the ER opened for the day. Despite staff being inside, and a passer by being able to get inside to alert staff of the patient staff still elected to call 911 and wait for the ambulance. They then refused to admit that ambulance to the ER as they were still not open for a few more minutes. I respect that the hospitals have policies but something about these situations just does not seem right.


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## Lady_EMT (Feb 12, 2011)

I once had a guy who fell in the parking lot of the hospital and hurt his hand. I'm talking minor laceration. There was a decent bit of blood, as I believe the man was on Coumadin (this call was about 3 years ago, when I was first in my EMT class). He was with a nurse, who was assisting him to his car when he fell. But they couldn't just turn and walk 100 feet to the ER, they had to call the ambulance to come, pick him up, and drive across the parking lot.

Now, did this accident actually happen in the parking lot, or on the road leading to the parking lot? There's a pretty big difference. From the sounds of it, the pt didn't need extrication, since the PD instantly initiated CPR. There are a lot of "wtf?'s" in this article.

TL;DR:
There's gonna be a looooot of paperwork.


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## Icenine (Feb 12, 2011)

Why can't the ED staff go outside the doors?

The only thing I can see is the lack of ability to immobilize.


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## Senorsquishie (Feb 12, 2011)

A similar incident happened at a hospital in my area, the difference is that the woman was admitted and then left the ED on her own accord. She never made it off hospital grounds. I wonder what safe gaurds hospitals have against these types of situations?


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## Flight-LP (Feb 12, 2011)

Icenine said:


> Why can't the ED staff go outside the doors?
> 
> The only thing I can see is the lack of ability to immobilize.



Because they have an obligation to their patients inside the ER. The hospital did eventually send some assistance, probably once available staff was located. This gentleman didn't use sound judgement and made a personal choice to drive himself. How can another be held liable for his personal desicion? It is reasonable for one to call 911 with a complaint of chest pain. It also reasonable that a mans wife would be by his side and perhaps drive him to the ER if that decision is made. 

Sorry, thumbs down to this guys thought process.


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## TransportJockey (Feb 12, 2011)

The hospital I worked at had the same policy. Makes sense to me.


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## foxfire (Feb 12, 2011)

Something is not adding up here. Family says that the man had said he was feeling ill. And had been coughing a lot. 
And then the hospital spokesperson says the pt was complaining of chest pain. 
Maybe I am missing something.:unsure:


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## Shishkabob (Feb 12, 2011)

foxfire said:


> Something is not adding up here. Family says that the man had said he was feeling ill. And had been coughing a lot.
> And then the hospital spokesperson says the pt was complaining of chest pain.
> Maybe I am missing something.:unsure:



Ill feelings and caughing can be indications of an MI.



At the same time, media sucks and often doesn't get things right, so take what ANY journalist says in a story as bullcrap.


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## LucidResq (Feb 12, 2011)

Had a guy call 911, tell them he was in front of the ED doors, was going to shoot himself in the head and wanted to be an organ donor. The line disconnected. Security was immediately notified - and they confirmed what had just happened. 

PD was en route of course but no ambulance was ever started. They just took him in. 

That's the only similar circumstance I can think of.


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## HotelCo (Feb 12, 2011)

One of the smaller hospital has a 150 foot rule. If they're within 150 yards of a door to the hospital, ER staff can go and assist. With the exception being the patient still has to be on hospital property. Otherwise, they're required to call 911.


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## Veneficus (Feb 12, 2011)

In every hospital I have been affiliated with both in the states and in europe, we went/go outside all the time. Especially when the homeboy ambulance service was making deliveries. 

(That is when a group of people usually engaged in criminal activity pushes a wounded/ill comrade out of the still moving vehicle in front of the ED so they don't have to stop and appear on security camera or answer questions. Especially when the local cops have a permanant posting in the ED.)

In the states some of the local EMS agencies even let us borrow some equipment in order to help.

I am of the mind of giving the hospital the benefit of the doubt on this one because the story seems inconsistent and poorly written to have all the facts.

I would also like to mention in some larger hospital complexes "the parking lot" can be blocks away. You cannot send ED staff on scavenger hunts all over the grounds.


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## HotelCo (Feb 12, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> One of the smaller hospital has a 150 foot rule. If they're within 150 yards of a door to the hospital, ER staff can go and assist. With the exception being the patient still has to be on hospital property. Otherwise, they're required to call 911.



Just to clarify I was talking about yards, not feet.


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## Martyn (Feb 12, 2011)

foxfire said:


> Something is not adding up here. Family says that the man had said he was feeling ill. And had been coughing a lot.
> And then the hospital spokesperson says the pt was complaining of chest pain.
> Maybe I am missing something.:unsure:



Yeah, CHF?


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## bigbaldguy (Feb 12, 2011)

Some hospital complexes are so large and sprawling it makes sense that there would have to be some kind of limit on how far the ED staff can go. That said it does seem that if two police officers run into an ED and say theres someone who needs help outside that help should be sent (assuming that it can be spared of course)It will be very interesting to see just what details come out about this situation in the next few weeks.


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## bstone (Feb 12, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> So, why are the police lying about the hospital not sending resources?



Because cops lie. Not shocking or groundbreaking at all.


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## DrParasite (Feb 12, 2011)

Aidey said:


> Not the first time or the last time. Most, if not all of the hospitals I've worked with have similar policies.


damn, you beat me to it.


Aidey said:


> Frankly, it sounds like the guy was dead and the hospital staff dragging him inside wouldn't have changed a darn thing.


ehh, a witnessed arrest, right out side the ER?  would have been better than CPR while waiting 10 minutes for an ambulance





lex said:


> A man was found outside of City Hopsital in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan a few minutes before the ER opened for the day


damn your ER aren't open 24/7?  that sucks.





Veneficus said:


> In every hospital I have been affiliated with both in the states and in europe, we went/go outside all the time. Especially when the homeboy ambulance service was making deliveries.


seriously?  your doctors and nurses ran outside and treated people in the parking lots?  most hospitals I am familiar with won't let the ER treat anyone outside of the ER.  if someone falls in the parking lot, they will call 911, and usually have security meet the person outside (esp if on hospital property, so security can fill out a report).  more often than not, security would escort the fall victim to the hospital, maybe in a wheelchair. but never a hospital stretcher with a doctor and nurse ready to treat the unconscious person.


Veneficus said:


> I am of the mind of giving the hospital the benefit of the doubt on this one because the story seems inconsistent and poorly written to have all the facts.


I am not.  most hospital I know of won't help you out of fear of liability of the doctor working outside the ER.  I am sure the hospital is doing spin control to counter the negative PR that this event is gonna have.


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## ffemt8978 (Feb 12, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> I am sure the hospital is doing spin control to counter the negative PR that this event is gonna have.


I think all three sides are doing some spin control.


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## Aidey (Feb 12, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> ehh, a witnessed arrest, right out side the ER?  would have been better than CPR while waiting 10 minutes for an ambulance.



One of the news reports I read said he was in the car for 20 minutes before anyone checked on him, so it may not have really been witnessed. 

I also wouldn't be surprised if someone had got an AED to use.


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## foxfire (Feb 12, 2011)

Martyn said:


> Yeah, CHF?





Linuss said:


> Ill feelings and caughing can be indications of an MI.
> .



I guess what I found interesting,  was the statements that this guy was having chest pain.  I am not disputing the possible symtoms for the MI. Just think that it is interesting that the spokeswoman was saying that this pt was suffering from chest pain when the family said that he went in for coughing and feeling ill.  But I guess we don't have the full story.


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## Martyn (Feb 13, 2011)

When all is said and done, what are we all about? Can we honestly say that 'we' would not get involved if someone came to us and said that there was a person down, near where we were, that desperately needed help? Valuable help that we are all trained and dedicated to deliver? I find these sort of stories beyond belief. Are we all so sh** scared of getting sued that we are going to ignore our fellow man in their hour of need? I would like to know what type of world we are getting into.

Addendum: my wife just made a comment, think if it was a relative of yours in that position, would you still go and have your coffee, or jump into action and help?


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## DrParasite (Feb 13, 2011)

Martyn said:


> Can we honestly say that 'we' would not get involved if someone came to us and said that there was a person down, near where we were, that desperately needed help?


We????? this isn't about us... I can answer any all in the city that I work.... that's my job.  but I also don't work in an ER, and my job description isn't limited to the ER.

I do know some agencies that won't treat and transport someone when outside their coverage area, because the AHJ has their own area.  so if you are coming back from a hospital and see an MVA, they will call it in and wait.  Me, I'm the *** who doesn't care, and would much rather do what is in the patient's best interest and deal with the political consequences afterwards.

but it's a much different game, with much different rules, when you are working on the street vs working in an ER.  you can do A LOT more in the ER, but the area you can do A LOT in is much smaller.  Plus some ER doctors (and to a lesser extent ER nurses) are useless outside the ER, because they don't have the tools and tests to run in a dark parking lot vs a brightly lit and well equipped ER.


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## InstaChain87 (Feb 13, 2011)

I have been called to local hospitals multiple times during work. Most of the time security will bring the patient into the ER before we arrive but there have been time I actually had to transport from the parking lot to the ER....

Must be some sort of policy or liability on the hospitals part?


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## Martyn (Feb 13, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> Me, I'm the *** who doesn't care, and would much rather do what is in the patient's best interest and deal with the political consequences afterwards.




Thats 2 of us...


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