# Dog Intubation



## Gilbert (Dec 19, 2011)

Hey all, I am in a paramedic class right now and the instructor just told us that we will be intubating a dog to get our field intubations required by the state of Michigan to get our license. I am irritated to no end with the thought of getting my "tubes" with a dog. A: because im a dog lover B: because its not even close to a human. I think this is a cheap way of getting out of having to deal with the hospitals and the operating rooms...and I think it's a load of crap. What do you all think?
 PS the last class that intubated the dog said that there wasn't a single surgery that day for any animal so the Vet. brought her dobermin for them to intubate the dog was intubated 50 or so times in one session I have a huge problem with that as well. Am I missing something?


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## Anjel (Dec 19, 2011)

Gilbert said:


> Hey all, I am in a paramedic class right now and the instructor just told us that we will be intubating a dog to get our field intubations required by the state of Michigan to get our license. I am irritated to no end with the thought of getting my "tubes" with a dog. A: because im a dog lover B: because its not even close to a human. I think this is a cheap way of getting out of having to deal with the hospitals and the operating rooms...and I think it's a load of crap. What do you all think?
> PS the last class that intubated the dog said that there wasn't a single surgery that day for any animal so the Vet. brought her dobermin for them to intubate the dog was intubated 50 or so times in one session I have a huge problem with that as well. Am I missing something?



Um where the heck are you going to school? There's no clinicals??? 

Is that even legal?


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## medic417 (Dec 19, 2011)

Much of medicine is learned on lesser species before trying it on humans.  Take the opportunity to learn.


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## Gilbert (Dec 19, 2011)

yes there are clinicals and we also have to pass an externship. The company is solid.


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## EMSrush (Dec 19, 2011)

I've never heard of such a thing...!


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## medic417 (Dec 19, 2011)

Many schools use dogs, cats, goats, etc to help you develop proper techniques.


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## AlphaButch (Dec 19, 2011)

I'd have problems with the intubating a dog repeatedly in one session because there would be too high a chance for injury upon extubation in my opinion.

As for the anatomy, it's close enough that you can learn the techniques and more importantly - get over the fear of intubation. If your state has a minimum required intubations, I can understand using this as an option (otherwise you may have bad luck and be waiting for months just for your last intubation).

I think you should have done better research before picking that course if you have that much of an issue with the way they operate.


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## STXmedic (Dec 19, 2011)

We intubated goats and ferrets during school. The goats got put down afterwards (they had many different skills performed on them), but the ferrets were reused.


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## usafmedic45 (Dec 19, 2011)

> I am irritated to no end with the thought of getting my "tubes" with a dog. A: because im a dog lover



I like animals much more than I do people but don't see a problem with this.




> I'd have problems with the intubating a dog repeatedly in one session because there would be too high a chance for injury upon extubation in my opinion.



Most are euthanized before or after the practice session.  We used several freshly euthanized dogs and cats to allow enough practice for everyone in a reasonable amount of time.  This was in addition to OR time and intubations during our clinicals.



> B: because its not even close to a human.



You know that old "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool...." adage?  

We used cats as their anatomy- minus the teeth of course- is very similar to a small child's both in layout and size and dogs because it's not that far off from a human adult's once you get past the muzzle (in a flat nosed breed like a pug or mastiff, it's honestly pretty similar) and the principles of intubation are the same regardless.


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## NomadicMedic (Dec 19, 2011)

My girlfriend is a vet, and I just told her about this thread. She laughed, "Dogs are easy," she said. "if you want to simulate pedi airways, try kittens." I advocated using cats as a training adjunct for pedi intubations in a paper that I wrote for medic school.


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## Nerd13 (Dec 19, 2011)

If it's a well run program it's not as bad as it sounds. 

My medic class went to a very reputable college that had a cat intubation lab. The cats were rescues that were put through the anesthesia process to be spayed/neutered and to see how they would tolerate it. If they came through that with flying colors they were used for the intubation lab a maximum of two sessions with many months required between the sessions. After the cats had fulfilled their two sessions they were adopted out with a very careful background examination of the household and were open for us to adopt as well.  During the intubations there was a vet and 2 vet techs watching us at all times to make sure we were being careful and using good technique. After every couple intubation attempts the vet and the techs would examine the cats vocal chords before proceeding with more attempts to make sure that they were not showing signs of injury. If they were the cats were pulled into recovery immediately. These cats would very likely have been euthanized in the shelters that they were acquired from and instead went on to be spayed/neutered and live in an awesome cat house with toys and things to climb on with college students to play with them daily before finally being adopted out. I should mention that all of this is monitored by a strict internal review board as well. 

I'm a huge animal lover and even I couldn't find any real reason to be against this program. I'm so thankful for the experience of intubating an airway that small before someone's baby is thrust into my arms requiring intubation. If it's a well run program take the opportunity. It's not a human but it may be the closest approximation you get before you're out there doing this in emergency situations.


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## usafmedic45 (Dec 19, 2011)

n7lxi said:


> My girlfriend is a vet, and I just told her about this thread. She laughed, "Dogs are easy," she said. "if you want to simulate pedi airways, try kittens." I advocated using cats as a training adjunct for pedi intubations in a paper that I wrote for medic school.



Yeah, I've intubated quite a few dogs over the course of my career thanks to seeing them pulled from burning buildings, etc.  I'd rather intubate any dog over your average person any day.


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## Epi-do (Dec 19, 2011)

We didn't intubate dogs, but we did do cats.  They were all given ketamine prior to the session, and there were only 2 students per cat.  After we each intubated the cat 2 or 3 times, the cats were taken back to their cages and monitored until the ketamine wore off.  Afterwards, we were given the opportunity to adopt them.


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## firetender (Dec 19, 2011)

Were it not for dogs, we wouldn't have CPR and defibrillation.

They were the first animals chosen to be worked on. The earliest recognition that closed cardiac compressions maintains blood pressure was on dogs. The way external cardiac defibrillation along with CPR was "sold" to skeptical MD's in the late 1950's was fibrillating the dog, intubation and CPR begun, de-fibrillating the dog and then letting the dog get up, walk around and exhibit ROSC.

If all goes as planned, I'll be telling the story in our February Newsletter.

Were it not for dogs being man's best friend, you'd still be load and go.


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## EMSrush (Dec 20, 2011)

I'm sitting here, envisioning an OPA for dogs, and trying not to giggle. I think maybe I'm just tired and need some rest....


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## systemet (Dec 20, 2011)

firetender said:


> W
> They were the first animals chosen to be worked on. The earliest recognition that closed cardiac compressions maintains blood pressure was on dogs. The way external cardiac defibrillation along with CPR was "sold" to skeptical MD's in the late 1950's was fibrillating the dog, intubation and CPR begun, de-fibrillating the dog and then letting the dog get up, walk around and exhibit ROSC.



It's funny how this stuff works.  I also love animals, and would have a very hard time working on dogs.

Yet I don't have similar problems with pigs.  Which are almost certainly more intelligent.  But we consider them a food animal, not a companion animal, so it seems to be more acceptable to use them for this sort of research.

I can only echo the comments of other's here, that the vet's I've talked to have said that dogs are easy intubations, you just grab the tongue and jaw together, pull a bit, and the cords should present.  I guess most have a pretty good Mallampatti.


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## DrParasite (Dec 20, 2011)

my old partner was a Navy Corpsman.  he said part of their training involved learning how to intubate pigs.  

supposedly if you can intubate a pig, a human is MUCH easier


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## usafmedic45 (Dec 20, 2011)

> would have a very hard time working on dogs



I'd much prefer we got to practice on prisoners and others with a debt to society to repay but unfortunately some :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored:s about 70 years ago completely ruined that option.



> you just grab the tongue and jaw together, pull a bit, and the cords should present. I guess most have a pretty good Mallampatti.



The fact that their mouth normally lines up perfectly with their trachea explains a lot.


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## systemet (Dec 20, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> The fact that their mouth normally lines up perfectly with their trachea explains a lot.



****ing quadripeds!


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## usafmedic45 (Dec 20, 2011)

systemet said:


> ****ing quadripeds!


Something like that.


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## NomadicMedic (Dec 21, 2011)

systemet said:


> I guess most have a pretty good Mallampatti.



Mallampuppy, you mean.


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## Hockey (Dec 23, 2011)

Intubating dogs?  Let me guess...MMR?


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## Anjel (Dec 23, 2011)

Hockey said:


> Intubating dogs?  Let me guess...MMR?



Glad im not going there lol


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## Hockey (Dec 23, 2011)

Anjel1030 said:


> Glad im not going there lol



We were one of the first classes that did it.  Rick's brother is the vet I believe.  They found a stray and they made it the vet pet.  2 classes went through and tubed the dog 3 times each person.  Basically all we did was move the tongue out of the way and put it in, pull it out and repeat.  

Didn't learn anything really and I wasn't 100% comfortable doing it.  

Covenant was screwing with us for OR time and I never got to go there.  I did all mine in the field other than the 3 there.  

I hope they improve their program.  I really wanted to go to OB and Peds but we couldn't because they pissed them off before.  I hear they're doing their tubes at St Marys now (OP can you confirm?).  Is Bill your teacher?


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## Gilbert (Dec 24, 2011)

AlphaButch said:


> I'd have problems with the intubating a dog repeatedly in one session because there would be too high a chance for injury upon extubation in my opinion.
> 
> As for the anatomy, it's close enough that you can learn the techniques and more importantly - get over the fear of intubation. If your state has a minimum required intubations, I can understand using this as an option (otherwise you may have bad luck and be waiting for months just for your last intubation).
> 
> I think you should have done better research before picking that course if you have that much of an issue with the way they operate.


Techniques are changed due to the equipment not necessary to intuabate a dog....like a laryngoscope


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## Hockey (Dec 26, 2011)

Gilbert said:


> Techniques are changed due to the equipment not necessary to intuabate a dog....like a laryngoscope



Grab the tongue, move it to the side and toss it straight down between the cords!

:rofl:


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## rhan101277 (Dec 26, 2011)

is it a dead dog?


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## Hockey (Dec 27, 2011)

rhan101277 said:


> is it a dead dog?



Nope.  Knocked out


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## Niccigsu (Jan 18, 2012)

usafmedic45 said:


> I'd much prefer we got to practice on prisoners and others with a debt to society to repay but unfortunately some :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored:s about 70 years ago completely ruined that option.
> 
> 
> 
> Ditto!


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## Niccigsu (Jan 18, 2012)

This post makes me sad. If we had to practice on animals here I wouldn't be able to do it. Make convicts be lab rats.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jan 18, 2012)

n7lxi said:


> My girlfriend is a vet, and I just told her about this thread. She laughed, "Dogs are easy," she said. "if you want to simulate pedi airways, try kittens." I advocated using cats as a training adjunct for pedi intubations in a paper that I wrote for medic school.



Agreed.  6 years as a Vet Tech; the last year as the senior vet tech.  Intubated 10-30 a week.  Dogs are no issue; move tounge, insert, inflate.  Cats were the issue; the smaller the worse.  Constantly had to step in after some techs 3 try; not easy when the little guy won't "open up for ya".  Pigs also sucked and from what I am told are the most similar structurally to humans.  Not sure if that is true.  Can't see how dog or cat intubations prepare anyone for human intubation; apples and oranges.

From what I have heard, many institutions have stopped using dogs and cats for intubation practices due to animal rights protests.


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