# Messed up calls.



## TgerFoxMark (Jan 21, 2009)

i think i will throw one of my messed up events in.

I am OFF DUTY at college hanging out with my geeky friends at a LARP (live action role playing) [YES, IM A NERD] the feild where we play is within sight of 3 MAJOR hospitals. 2 Trauma 1's and a teaching hospital. Man walks out of the teaching hospital, crosses the road safely, meets up with his family infront of the hotel on the sidewalk. hugs all around. (i was *dead* in game so i was watching this.) Campus Parking vehicle rounds the corner, accelerates like mad, 40+MPH in less than 200Ft. hops the curb and hits the man, his wife, and wings the daughter.  I ran to my truck and grabbed my jump bag. (small trauma kit from ferno) and dash to the scene. 

Man is agonal, and loosing a massive amount of blood from an open skull fracture. His wife has a obviously boken femur. I do abc's on her, she is yelling at me to go help her husband. (911 was called by several of the Larpers) so I'm an off duty basic, I have one of my friends glove up and hold c-spine (Nursing senior) while i try to do what i can. someone flags down a private ambulance begging for help since i cant do all that much. (He is breathing, with assistance from a pocket mask, and has a weak pulse. im trying to stop the bleeding and do vent.) They stop and jump out to help, medic to my pt, basic to his wife. 

We still have no 911 response on scene. (dispaching hospital with their name on the rigs is about 1000 ft away.) the private co.'s ride along finds out that my pt was just released after triple bypass. medic now has me bagging the pt. he is CTD. Local EMS shows up and takes over my Pt. (we will call him tom) Tom got put on a board with full precautions, and is being loaded with 2 emt-P's in the back with him. Rig two shows up for his wife with the cops. traction splint, full precautions here.

I have cleaned up and am checking out the daughter. Tender LL quadrant where the mirror hit her.  swollen wrist, most likely broken, so i start basic first aid here, and she waits for the third rig. 

Found out that "Tom" lived for another 2 hours, and his wife and daughter have asked to see me. I go in with my boss (was with local EMS, but off that day for classes) and they thank me for everything i did, and invite me to attend the funeral (this is several days later)

I go, in full dress uniform. and pay my respects and genenerally try to help people through the hard time. 

Now. fast forward 4 months. my boss calls me and say they are trying to sue me now, for not having done more to save Tom. the hospital backs me up and i had stayed in my scope of practice as an off duty EMT-B to the letter. the case was dropped as CCTV from the hotel the incident was infront of showed exactly what I did. 

They got the school for 3Mil. BUT they were trying to get another 1 mil from me. (i doubt i will ever have a million dollars. IM NOT A DOC)

I just want to get some input on what you guys think of this.
ps sorry if it runs on, i am exausted, and need some sleep.
AND go ahead and post your odd things too! i think this will help me drop this one out of my mind some. and i hope the thread does the same for you

YAY ! Group CISD!


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## artman17847 (Jan 21, 2009)

....so what was thier specific complaint aganist you. As a party to litigation you should have been served with a copy of the complaint.

I guess they were trying to hit the legal lotto against you.

This is a prime example as to why nobody wants to help anyone anymore.

Funny how they thanked you out of one side of thier mouth, invite you to the funeral and then try to sue you

SOOO sad!


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## Sasha (Jan 21, 2009)

Well for one, don't let this upset you. You didn't hit him with the car, you didn't kill him, it sounds like you did all you could to try and prevent his death but people die. People die every single day, and every single person dies and there is NOTHING we can do to change that. We can give them more time And you did, you gave him a whole two hours more. You should be proud of that, you gave him a fighting chance, and you gave time for his family to say goodbye.

Secondly, people are totally sue happy. You could save them from killing themselves and they will turn around and sue. Why? Because America is money hungry. Be careful, watch your back out there. It sounds like you did what you could, and what you should have. You triaged, treated the most survivable but critically injured first, and once stabilized to your best ability, went back to the other patient.

Good job :]


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## EMTCop86 (Jan 24, 2009)

Yea that sounds pretty familiar, someone tragically dies and the family wants a big fat pay check. Seems like you did everything you could but hey when it's your time to go it's your time to go. Maybe someone should inform that family that you didn't have to do anything in the first place! Here in CA being off duty you would have had no duty to act, wonder what they would of thought then.


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## TgerFoxMark (Jan 24, 2009)

Here in Indiana we have a duty to act, even when off duty.
Its made me late for work, doctors apointments as well as dates.


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## Flight-LP (Jan 24, 2009)

I'd recommend playing your games farther away from the hospital next time...............

I'm curious as to your "required duty to act". What about if you have been enjoying a nice cold alcoholic beverage. Does your legislation still actually expect you to act?

What about out of state medics? I have friends in Evansville. We like to go out and have a couple of cold ones when I'm there. If I witness an MVA, I will not stop, nor will I render aid. What is the specific ruling on this? Just curious.................


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## TgerFoxMark (Jan 24, 2009)

Im not sure on the out of state requirements, altho i do know that if you have been drinking you are not expected to respond... i will say i see more than a few people who try to.


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## Epi-do (Jan 24, 2009)

TgerFoxMark said:


> Here in Indiana we have a duty to act, even when off duty.



Can you find the statute or administrative law that states this?  In ten years, you are the first person I have heard say this.  I have always been taught that there is no duty to act while off duty.  

I have just spent the last hour and a half or so trying to find the actual law that states what you claim.  So far, I haven't had any luck.


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## Wee-EMT (Jan 24, 2009)

Tough break….It just shows how insensible and vicious some people are.  They always need someone to blame, even if it was the EMT who did the best they could. 

Did they ever catch the guy that hit them?


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## Flight-LP (Jan 24, 2009)

TgerFoxMark said:


> Im not sure on the out of state requirements, altho i do know that if you have been drinking you are not expected to respond... i will say i see more than a few people who try to.



Then just say you have been drinking next time, then you won't have to get sucked into someone elses drama. Simple enough.

If it makes you feel better and clears your conscious, then call 911 and get responders on the way.

This example is precisely why I will not get involved in other peoples issues off duty. Too much drama and liability.


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## enjoynz (Jan 24, 2009)

You did what you could, and to thank you for it and then try an sue you, is pretty two faced, if you ask me!
Money is never going to bring back your loved ones!
If people want to benefit financially from their loved ones deaths, take out a good Life Insurance Policy!

I'm sorry for the blunt comments, but I'll never understand the suing business in the USA.
I'm suprised any of you want to help people, with that thought in the back of your minds.
It can be a thankless job at the best of times, yet most of us do it for the good of mankind, and love what we do!

I'm glad you were cleared of any blame, that is justice!
Carry on the good work!

Cheers Enjoynz


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## VentMedic (Jan 24, 2009)

Epi-do said:


> Can you find the statute or administrative law that states this? In ten years, you are the first person I have heard say this. I have always been taught that there is no duty to act while off duty.
> 
> I have just spent the last hour and a half or so trying to find the actual law that states what you claim. So far, I haven't had any luck.


 
You are correct in that you may not find a law stating duty to act. There are too many fair labor laws, workmen's comp and "is the employer responsible if not on duty" issues that would have to be addressed. 

Rather than to attempt to make everyone legally liable, some states have rewritten or revised their Good Sam laws to encourage people to act without fear of liablilty rather than making it a "duty to act" where someone will have to be liable for any actions or inaction taken.

http://healthyamericans.org/reports/bioterror07/2007StateComparisonTable.pdf


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## Epi-do (Jan 24, 2009)

Thanks for the link, Vent.  I did know we are covered under IN's Good Sam law, but to my knowledge, it doesn't require that we stop.  The only people required to stop are those involved in the accident, and any  on-duty public safety/EMS providers dispatched to that location.


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## marineman (Jan 25, 2009)

Anyone else read through that and think they would have black tagged the guy and gone straight to the wife since it's technically a MCI? Agonal respirations is borderline as far as do you consider them breathing or not.


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## TgerFoxMark (Jan 25, 2009)

I did consider it. but did not because i felt that there was a chance,. I was wrong, but hey, the ink on m y cert was only 3mo. old at that point. Very little street time.


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## mycrofft (Jan 25, 2009)

*Triage that close to hospital not as critical, and imagine the lawsuit then!*

I talked to a lawyer friend once about this sort of phenomenon. Yes there are such, and I have family and their offspring to prove it!

The family usually does not suddenly decide to strike it rich, it is usually their attorney. It is getting so that the family finds that medical bills leave them stripped, so they try to recover through suit. If the lawyer doesn't try every pocket to the max, she/he is negligent by the common standard of practice and could be in turn held liable for malpractice (plus, the longer the suit and the bigger the award the more the lawyer makes). Bigger entities like hospitals don't step up and accept responsibilities, they retain big lawyers whose job it is to use any means to delay, mitigate, or completely fend off suits and keep their expensive retainers and contingency fees.


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## marineman (Jan 25, 2009)

TgerFoxMark said:


> I did consider it. but did not because i felt that there was a chance,. I was wrong, but hey, the ink on m y cert was only 3mo. old at that point. Very little street time.



i'm not trying to second guess your judgment since I wasn't on scene to really form an impression it's hard to be able to say. The only thing is dead from trauma stay dead from trauma. In a way by working with the husband you did treat the wife by doing what she wanted it would keep her calm which can be the best thing for her at that point


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## Bosco578 (Jan 25, 2009)

Counter sue for 800 billion.:beerchug:


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## builtftuff (Jan 25, 2009)

wow, people are seemingly tricky when it comes to making a lot of money.  Yes their family member passed and they are feeling a variety of emotions, however everything was correctly done.  Great story!


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## csly27 (Jan 25, 2009)

I knew people could be scantless but damn that is just wrong. To invite you to the funeral then turn around and try to sue. Someone mentioned a lawyers idea, more than likely. I am not a big fan of lawyers to begin with. They are money hungry and really dont care who gets hurt in the process. 

I will remember this story when I finally get licensed, and am working in the feild. It is a shame that people get dogged out when they want to help people. It is a damned if you do and damned if you dont I suppose. 

It is what it is.


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## lightsandsirens5 (Jan 26, 2009)

It could even be some lawyer who hears about the case and contacts the family, telling them if they sue and win, they can pay off those medical bills. My mom worked for a DA's office for like 7 years and she says this happens allthe time. Some good for nuffin' defence guy gets wind of some poor familys troubls and sees an opening to get rich. :angry:

Good job for jumping right in being so recently certed and all!


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## BossyCow (Jan 26, 2009)

Generally in order to prove that you were negligent or in some way responsible for the man's death, they have to prove that had you done something more, better, faster the man would have lived. I can't see how this would be unless he bled out from a arterial bleed from an extremity that you could have put pressure on and missed.

When patients lawyer up, every agency being sued at the advice of their legal team starts pointing the fingers elsewhere. Sort of like elementary school children crying "Not It!" Since you are the one without a team of lawyers, you are the target of choice. 

Try not to take it personally. I know that's hard to do, but it has nothing to do with you or the family's feelings. Remind yourself that the family was sincerely grateful for your efforts before a team of highly paid legal-eagles told them that you actually killed Daddy. This is a game and there's huge amounts of money to be made playing it well. Not by you of course, but you are just fodder for the fight at this point. The lawyers are going to toss everything in their path into the flames and see which one coughs up money to save themselves the hassle and embarrassment.

Also naming you in the suit increases the likelihood that you will remember some damning piece of information that makes their case that the hospital/facility/responding EMS agency was the one at fault. Getting the other people being sued to fight amongst themselves helps the suer.


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## NolaRabbit (Jan 26, 2009)

BossyCow said:


> Try not to take it personally. I know that's hard to do, but it has nothing to do with you or the family's feelings. Remind yourself that the family was sincerely grateful for your efforts before a team of highly paid legal-eagles told them that you actually killed Daddy. This is a game and there's huge amounts of money to be made playing it well. Not by you of course, but you are just fodder for the fight at this point. The lawyers are going to toss everything in their path into the flames and see which one coughs up money to save themselves the hassle and embarrassment.



Exactly what I was thinking. I don't think it was the family's initial idea to sue the good samaritan that came to help them...at least, I truly hope not. But we all know it happens.

I was in an MVA a few years ago in my POV right outside of my work place. A girl T-boned me as I was crossing two lanes to pull into the lot. I offered to call her a unit and she accepted one but refused transport. She denied injury. Just shy of a year later she sued me, my insurance company as well as her own, claiming disability, and walked away with 26 grand. 

This was the second lawsuit she had initiated and won following several traffic accidents. She was 24 years old. I don't suspect this was her last.

Moral of this story is to keep your mouth shut about your work affiliation if you can help it. Anonymity is your friend.


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## sarahharter (Jan 26, 2009)

i just dont understand people. i always stop for mva's and have had a couple of times where yes i have a whacker car and people see my light bars, emt license plate and stickers and stop my car for help. i was always told i have a duty to stop to my level of cert but i also feel that i have an obligation to which i dont mind. i just wish people would appriciate what we do instead of attacking those who do. they want someone to blame for there loss and instead of thinking that :censored::censored::censored::censored: happens which sucks but is true they go after the ones who helo thinking money will fix their problems.


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## rmellish (Jan 26, 2009)

Epi-do said:


> Can you find the statute or administrative law that states this?  In ten years, you are the first person I have heard say this.  I have always been taught that there is no duty to act while off duty.
> 
> I have just spent the last hour and a half or so trying to find the actual law that states what you claim.  So far, I haven't had any luck.



x2, I've never heard of a legal stipulation in Indiana requiring this. In fact, I remember being instructed the exact opposite.


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## jester_1269 (Jan 27, 2009)

TgerFoxMark said:


> Here in Indiana we have a duty to act, even when off duty.
> Its made me late for work, doctors apointments as well as dates.



I'm not sure who told you that, but we *do not *have a duty to act here.  So no more using "I was on a run" for a late to work excuse... <_<

So long as you don't walk up and announce you're an EMT, theres nothing legally anyone can do if you just walk away.  Always remember when you're off duty that you're risking your cert and your own lively-hood for whoever you stop for.  Most times, its just not worth it.


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## Bosco578 (Jan 27, 2009)

jester_1269 said:


> I'm not sure who told you that, but we *do not *have a duty to act here. So no more using "I was on a run" for a late to work excuse... <_<
> 
> So long as you don't walk up and announce you're an EMT, theres nothing legally anyone can do if you just walk away. Always remember when you're off duty that you're risking your cert and your own lively-hood for whoever you stop for. Most times, its just not worth it.


 
So true.-_-


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## TgerFoxMark (Jan 27, 2009)

I was told that by the medic who i worked with 4 days a week for 8 months (12hr shifts)


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## Bosco578 (Jan 27, 2009)

TgerFoxMark said:


> I was told that by the medic who i worked with 4 days a week for 8 months (12hr shifts)


 
Must be true then.......


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## jester_1269 (Jan 27, 2009)

TgerFoxMark said:


> I was told that by the medic who i worked with 4 days a week for 8 months (12hr shifts)



please scroll down to "Duty to act".
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache...law&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us&client=firefox-a

Sorry, but you were told wrong.  And believe me, you do this long enough and more times than not you will just walk away.  Its a terrible thing, not being able to save everyone, I know, but still, without a cert you cant save ANYone.

Protect yourself
Protect your partner
Protect your patient
in that order.


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