# Staten Island man dies after being taken down by police



## 46Young (Jul 24, 2014)

According to the videos, a Staten Island man died following an arrest by the NYPD. You can hear him repeatedly saying that he can't breathe. On the second video below, EMS arrives @3:45 in. What do you think about the patient care that followed?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs47RBrC8p4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYSnp1UGVGc


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## Handsome Robb (Jul 24, 2014)

According to the FDNY both the BLS and ALS crews are patient care restricted because of this incident.

http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2014/07/emts_and_paramedics_who_respon.html


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## 46Young (Jul 24, 2014)

Handsome Robb said:


> According to the FDNY both the BLS and ALS crews are patient care restricted because of this incident.
> 
> http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2014/07/emts_and_paramedics_who_respon.html



Pending a meeting with the Medical Director no doubt.

http://nypost.com/2014/07/20/4-ems-workers-barred-from-duty-after-chokehold-death/

It was hospital based EMS, not FDNY EMS. They're as good as fired at this point. The hospital will most likely let them go due to the negative press.


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## Handsome Robb (Jul 24, 2014)

I personally don't think they should be allowed to work in EMS anymore after that display. I hate to Monday morning QB because I wasn't there but that was a display of pure lack of competence.

Apparently it's not the first time this cop is in hot water either. The chokehold he used isn't allowed per NYPD although I don't think the chokehold is what killed him, my guess would be positional asphyxiation.


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## 46Young (Jul 24, 2014)

Handsome Robb said:


> I personally don't think they should be allowed to work in EMS anymore after that display. I hate to Monday morning QB because I wasn't there but that was a display of pure lack of competence.
> 
> Apparently it's not the first time this cop is in hot water either. The chokehold he used isn't allowed per NYPD although I don't think the chokehold is what killed him, my guess would be positional asphyxiation.



The cop had his left arm around his neck for only a brief moment. I wouldn't really call it a chokehold. It would have to remain applied to be called a hold, after all.

I could see why the EMT would, at first, be relatively nonchalant by asking if he could walk. There were numerous occasions where a perp starts acting up after getting the bracelets, making up medical complaints, thinking that they can get out of the arrest by going to the hospital. I get this with traffic stops too, with drunks claiming that they're diabetic, or faking wheezing and saying that they have asthma. I've seen similar scenarios to Garner's numerous times, where the perp flops around and complains about breathing and other stuff after getting arrested. The fake seizures can be amusing.

If a perp c/o diff breathing, I would do a quick assessment including L/S, SpO2, capno and B/P, then make them walk. I don't carry people, especially when they weigh well north of 300#, when they're faking illness, or even if they are a little sick but stable. I like to state aloud "to my partner" but really everyone in earshot how our findings suggest that nothing's wrong. For example, the drunk "diabetic" with a BGL of 150 and normal vitals at the accident scene.


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## 46Young (Jul 24, 2014)

Handsome Robb said:


> I personally don't think they should be allowed to work in EMS anymore after that display. I hate to Monday morning QB because I wasn't there but that was a display of pure lack of competence.
> 
> Apparently it's not the first time this cop is in hot water either. The chokehold he used isn't allowed per NYPD although I don't think the chokehold is what killed him, my guess would be positional asphyxiation.



The cop had his left arm around his neck for only a brief moment. I wouldn't really call it a chokehold. It would have to remain applied to be called a hold, after all.

I could see why the EMT would, at first, be relatively nonchalant by asking if he could walk. There were numerous occasions where a perp starts acting up after getting the bracelets, making up medical complaints, thinking that they can get out of the arrest by going to the hospital. I get this with traffic stops too, with drunks claiming that they're diabetic, or faking wheezing and saying that they have asthma. I've seen similar scenarios to Garner's numerous times, where the perp flops around and complains about breathing and other stuff after getting arrested. The fake seizures can be amusing.

If a perp c/o diff breathing, I would do a quick assessment including L/S, SpO2, capno and B/P, then make them walk. I don't carry people, especially when they weigh well north of 400#, when they're faking illness, or even if they are a little sick but stable. I like to state aloud "to my partner" but really everyone in earshot how our findings suggest that nothing's wrong. For example, the drunk "diabetic" with a BGL of 150 and normal vitals at the accident scene.


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## teedubbyaw (Jul 24, 2014)

Only had time to watch a quick part of the video, but it sure as heck looked like he was not breathing when the female emt came on scene and she didn't do anything...


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## Handsome Robb (Jul 24, 2014)

46 I totally agree. I've seen it quite often as well and I too make them walk. However this guy is very obviously apneic for an extended period of time. That's where my issue with it is. Also, her pulse check she states there's a pulse however leaves her hand there forever and doesn't say it with confidence. That makes me think she couldn't find it and/or was feeling her own. Can't find one? Grab your ears and auscultate for an apical pulse. 

The choke was released but it's a no-no to use it as a restraint, which he did in the process of taking him to the ground.

I'm the last person to say F the police, got a lot of friends who are cops and they're great people. This guys got a history and now his and his fellow officers' actions resulted in a fatality and they need to be held accountable for it. Stop and frisk is no longer allowed and from everything I've read it seems like what they were basically trying to do.


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## 46Young (Jul 24, 2014)

teedubbyaw said:


> Only had time to watch a quick part of the video, but it sure as heck looked like he was not breathing when the female emt came on scene and she didn't do anything...



I agree, I didn't see any respiratory effort at that time. If it were me rolling up on this patient, I would have checked for breathing, and then a hard sternal rub or twisting the skin on the inside of the upper arm. The police probably painted a picture of BS to the EMT's, but you still have to make sure that they're not in real distress before going into shenanigans mode.

Maybe it's just me, but with anyone that's obese and heading towards middle age, I'm going to be suspicious of some degree of CAD and HTN, and the possibility of being diabetic/pre-diabetic, all of which increase my suspicion of MI/CVA/sudden death. When you weigh as much as two people, your physiologic reserve can be quite poor.


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## 46Young (Jul 24, 2014)

Handsome Robb said:


> 46 I totally agree. I've seen it quite often as well and I too make them walk. However this guy is very obviously apneic for an extended period of time. That's where my issue with it is. Also, her pulse check she states there's a pulse however leaves her hand there forever and doesn't say it with confidence. That makes me think she couldn't find it and/or was feeling her own. Can't find one? Grab your ears and auscultate for an apical pulse.
> 
> The choke was released but it's a no-no to use it as a restraint, which he did in the process of taking him to the ground.
> 
> I'm the last person to say F the police, got a lot of friends who are cops and they're great people. This guys got a history and now his and his fellow officers' actions resulted in a fatality and they need to be held accountable for it. Stop and frisk is no longer allowed and from everything I've read it seems like what they were basically trying to do.



No one uses apical auscultation, but they should. Even the AHA says that trained medical providers are lousy at taking pulses. I agree, she didn't seem to sure about the pulse.

You're right, chokes and stop & frisk are not allowed. There are better ways of taking someone down. Stay within the rules. Don't they teach any judo or jiu-jitsu in the academy? The guy is huge, but he's obviously far from fit. It shouldn't have been too difficult to out-maneuver him. I'm joking, but you can even go back to grade school tactics and have one cop crouch behind him while the other one pushes him backwards.


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## Handsome Robb (Jul 24, 2014)

I propose that becomes the new standard takedown. :lol:


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## Rin (Jul 24, 2014)

I'm really reluctant to watch the video of that poor man dying, but I'm wondering how you can see that he's not breathing?  Even in person, most of my patients' respiratory efforts are pretty subtle.

Btw, if I walked up on a 350# patient like that, my first thought would probably be, "Damn, he can't walk?" too.  Just goes to show we really need to watch what we say and how we present ourselves. You never know when you're being recorded.  :/


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## teedubbyaw (Jul 25, 2014)

Rin said:


> I'm really reluctant to watch the video of that poor man dying, but I'm wondering how you can see that he's not breathing?  Even in person, most of my patients' respiratory efforts are pretty subtle.



It was pretty clear even on my cell phone that he was apneic.


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## Handsome Robb (Jul 25, 2014)

Not trying to be that guy but with experience it's very easy to see a resp effort. He had none.


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## Sally21 (Jul 25, 2014)

*She didnt do anything*

The EMS worker did absolutely nothing but check his pulse. He was clearly unresponsive. His eyes were wide open. Didn't check the airway or breathing. Didn't do anything to check his responsiveness. Clearly he wasn't moving or speaking back. No c spine. Nothing!


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## Carlos Danger (Jul 25, 2014)

*Aggressive police + Incompetent EMS = Brilliant combination*

Well that was one of the most appalling displays of brutality by police and incompetence by EMS that I've ever seen. It's truly sad to say, but neither surprises me a bit.

The cops think nothing of using deadly force against a guy who is causing harm to no one, and though the murder victim was clearly apneic (and likely pulseless) before EMS even arrived, the EMS princess keeps speaking to him as if he is going to respond. 

Lucky for EMS, the chances of successfully resuscitating this guy were close to zero, so their (lack of) action is unlikely to be found a proximate cause of his failure to survive. Lucky for the cops, they can pretty much do anything they want to people with little risk of anything sticking to them.

My humble predictions: 


The city will settle, without admitting fault, long before this goes to a civil trial


There _may_ be a token federal civil rights investigation, but if so, it will find no evidence of such a violation


The cop(s) who murdered this guy will be reprimanded but not fired or charged, and the brave city police will keep using whatever means necessary to protect the citizens from the awful dangers of voluntary exchange involving individually sold cigarettes  


A cursory investigation will find that the medics who showed such enviable assessment skills did nothing wrong at all, and city EMS crews will continue to provide the exact quality of care that we expect of them


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## EMDispatch (Jul 25, 2014)

Sally21 said:


> The EMS worker did absolutely nothing but check his pulse. He was clearly unresponsive. His eyes were wide open. Didn't check the airway or breathing. Didn't do anything to check his responsiveness. Clearly he wasn't moving or speaking back. No c spine. Nothing!



Quite frankly to me it sounds like the one officer is coaching her into to saying that she feels a pulse. Spending plenty of time around LEOs it's pretty obvious that they're aware he's apenic, and probably pulseless very early soon after he's on the ground. The loss of composure is pretty evident, and they fall further down the rat hole, by just trying to ignore it. I hate to say it, but it seems like they may very well have relayed their findings and game plan to the arriving EMS crews off camera...


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## terrible one (Jul 26, 2014)

Remi said:


> The cops think nothing of using deadly force against a guy who is causing harm to no one, and though the murder victim was clearly apneic (and likely pulseless) before EMS even arrived, the EMS princess keeps speaking to him as if he is going to respond.



A take-down is considered deadly force now? Hmm... I was wrestling with my brother today good thing I didn't murder him 

And while I agree he wasn't harming anyone, he certainly wasn't cooperative when they were talking with him.


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## Carlos Danger (Jul 26, 2014)

terrible one said:


> A take-down is considered deadly force now? Hmm...



I tell you what, let's try an experiment to find out:


You and a gang of your friends go out in public and find an obese person who isn't harming anyone but who looks like an easy target.


Walk up to them and heroically start demanding personal information and threatening them.


When your prey refuses to answer your questions, have one of your gang put him in a choke hold from behind, then have every one else in your gang bravely pile on.


After your gang manages to wrestle your victim to the ground, place him prone and then sit on him. 


Ignore your victim when he tells you that he can't breathe. Also ignore the fact that you've been taught that difficulty breathing is a known complication of the prone position.


When you are arrested for murder, just tell them "it's OK; what we did was just a takedown - it wasn't deadly force." 
Good luck with that.




terrible one said:


> And while I agree he wasn't harming anyone, he certainly wasn't cooperative when they were talking with him.



You are right, he wasn't cooperative. My bad; I forgot that not wanting to answer stupid, harassing questions gives the cops the right to kidnap and/or kill you.

/////////


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## terrible one (Jul 26, 2014)

Or you can try this experiment, when an officer tells you to do something just do it.


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## Carlos Danger (Jul 26, 2014)

terrible one said:


> Or you can try this experiment, when an officer tells you to do something just do it.



Just like a dog on a leash rolls over when it's master tells it to, hoping that his obedience will spare him a beating.

Not everyone is willing to live like that, fortunately.


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## Drax (Jul 26, 2014)

Remi said:


> Just like a dog on a leash rolls over when it's master tells it to, hoping that his obedience will spare him a beating.
> 
> Not everyone is willing to live like that, fortunately.



Didn't work out so fortunately for him.


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## terrible one (Jul 26, 2014)

Remi said:


> Just like a dog on a leash rolls over when it's master tells it to, hoping that his obedience will spare him a beating.
> 
> Not everyone is willing to live like that, fortunately.



I've found it pretty simple to not get beat by the cops. It's actually pretty crazy, but when they say put your hands behind your back you follow the directions. But hey if you want to try the alternative such as this gentleman feel free to, see how it works out for you.


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## ffemt8978 (Jul 26, 2014)

Focus on the EMS aspect of this or become the focus of my complete and undivided attention.


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## 46Young (Jul 28, 2014)

Remi said:


> Well that was one of the most appalling displays of brutality by police and incompetence by EMS that I've ever seen. It's truly sad to say, but neither surprises me a bit.
> 
> The cops think nothing of using deadly force against a guy who is causing harm to no one, and though the murder victim was clearly apneic (and likely pulseless) before EMS even arrived, the EMS princess keeps speaking to him as if he is going to respond.
> 
> ...



The EMS personnel on-scene appeared to be grossly negligent, but I would not say that this was "one of the most appalling displays of brutality by police" (Abner Louima, for example). I've personally witnessed much more violent and sadistic situations. Garner was not attacking the officers, so I can see no reason to place my arm around someone's neck unless they were actually attacking me. That aside, I can understand why the police placed the victim prone and held their head to the ground - the head follows the body, so if you control the head, the body can't go anywhere. The victim can't bite or spit (possibly blood if injured) at the officers from that position. I find it reasonable to hold that position for a brief moment, just long enough to apply handcuffs, then place him on his side, or as supine as possible without putting pressure on the hands or wrists. I'm going on this picture, on the right:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...ber-most-sued-nypd-officers-article-1.1882160

When I'm restraining a violent/combative patient (Garner was not combative, obviously), I always grab the head and turn it sideways (while the pt is supine), while another person holds the shoulders down, while others externally rotate and straighten the legs so that they can't kick. The NYPD has a papoose device that can fully envelop a patient while they're supine. There's no reason to continue to sit on top of the detainee after they're cuffed.

It baffles me why EMS did not pick up that the patient wasn't breathing. That's four careers down the drain right there, and deservedly so. I wonder how long it took them to realize that he was in respiratory or cardiac arrest and start working him?


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## NomadicMedic (Jul 28, 2014)

In looking at the timeline of the video, at least 8 minutes...


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## DrParasite (Jul 29, 2014)

Remi said:


> My humble predictions:
> 
> 
> The city will settle, without admitting fault, long before this goes to a civil trial
> ...


#1 will definately happen.  #2 may happen.  #3 will definately happen.  #4 is wrong.  the EMS crew will lose their jobs (and possibly rightfully so), will be stripped of their certifications, and will be used by other EMS agencies in the US (not in NYC) about what can happen when this all happens.

Formal disclaimer: I know many people in the NYC EMS system; the traits displayed by these 4 do not represent the vast majority of the EMS professionals, both FDNY and Hospital based.


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## Carlos Danger (Aug 2, 2014)

Update:

Eric Garner's Death By Police Chokehold Ruled A Homicide


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## Handsome Robb (Aug 2, 2014)

My only argument is anytime one human kills another it's a homicide...that's the definition of the word.

This so going to be interesting to see where this goes.


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## Angel (Aug 2, 2014)

Remi said:


> Update:
> 
> Eric Garner's Death By Police Chokehold Ruled A Homicide



A step in the right direction...just unfortunate it had to happen at all.


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## DrParasite (Aug 2, 2014)

> Pantaleo was stripped of his gun and badge pending the investigation, and another officer was placed on desk duty. Two paramedics and two emergency medical technicians were suspended without pay.


so the cop who caused this man to die is on desk duty until the issue gets resolved, but the EMTs and Paramedics who didn't help him are suspended without pay?  anyone else think that's a little unfair?


> The president of the powerful Patrolmen's Benevolent Association, Patrick Lynch, expressed his sympathies to Garner's family but noted Garner "was a man with serious health problems."
> 
> "We believe, however, that if he had not resisted the lawful order of the police officers placing him under arrest, this tragedy would not have occurred," he said.


great spin.  not sure if i disagree, but great spin on the situation.


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## Altitudes (Aug 2, 2014)

DrParasite said:


> so the cop who caused this man to die is on desk duty until the issue gets resolved, but the EMTs and Paramedics who didn't help him are suspended without pay?  anyone else think that's a little unfair?
> great spin.  not sure if i disagree, but great spin on the situation.



Dude, where have you been for years?  Anytime stuff like this happens, 99.99999% of the time the LEO gets a paid vacation for a couple weeks until such point as he/she is cleared of all charges, despite the overwelming evidence that they shouldn't be cleared.


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## drl (Aug 3, 2014)

Altitudes said:


> Dude, where have you been for years?  Anytime stuff like this happens, 99.99999% of the time the LEO gets a paid vacation for a couple weeks until such point as he/she is cleared of all charges, despite the overwelming evidence that they shouldn't be cleared.



Well, doesn't seem like that'll be the case this time...

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...d-homicide-medical-examiner-article-1.1888808


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## Altitudes (Aug 3, 2014)

drl said:


> Well, doesn't seem like that'll be the case this time...
> 
> http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...d-homicide-medical-examiner-article-1.1888808



This is an exception...I could hop on Google & find countless examples to support my statement.  But we'll see.  This isn't over yet.


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## Niki Caragua (Aug 11, 2014)

46Young said:


> The cop had his left arm around his neck for only a brief moment. I wouldn't really call it a chokehold. It would have to remain applied to be called a hold, after all.
> 
> I could see why the EMT would, at first, be relatively nonchalant by asking if he could walk. There were numerous occasions where a perp starts acting up after getting the bracelets, making up medical complaints, thinking that they can get out of the arrest by going to the hospital. I get this with traffic stops too, with drunks claiming that they're diabetic, or faking wheezing and saying that they have asthma. I've seen similar scenarios to Garner's numerous times, where the perp flops around and complains about breathing and other stuff after getting arrested. The fake seizures can be amusing.
> 
> If a perp c/o diff breathing, I would do a quick assessment including L/S, SpO2, capno and B/P, then make them walk. I don't carry people, especially when they weigh well north of 300#, when they're faking illness, or even if they are a little sick but stable. I like to state aloud "to my partner" but really everyone in earshot how our findings suggest that nothing's wrong. For example, the drunk "diabetic" with a BGL of 150 and normal vitals at the accident scene.




OMG Seeing this comment had me seething with anger so much that I made a profile just to respond and let me tell you why! Anyone with half of a brain and especially "medical training" can see that this man was not faking it. So don't even go there. This was not a "fake seize" what you and I witnessed was this mans last breathe. OK he DIED. So do not side with EMS and say you can see why blah blah some other ignorance blah.

I have been an EMT/Paramedic for 25 years and in my 25 years and can tell you that this was gross negligence ALL AROUND.
Ive seen fakes, Ive seen good cops, Ive seen bad cops, Ive seen good and bad cops die! Ive seen innocent, Ive seen guilty, Ive seen death.

Normally when people are arrested they are first told to put hands behind back.
Watched this video many times(yes im traumatized), didn't hear it.
Normally some kind of Miranda is read...
Once again did not hear it.
Department PROHIBITED CHOKE-HOLD WAS USED NO MATTER THE LENGTH OF APPLICATION!!
Yes I will say Eric should have complied but I will also say when he started saying he could not breathe his head should not have been smashed into the ground, because in the choke you see he submits by bringing that arm up for the cops to cuff him, there was no reason for the head smash

Now the EMTS.   Iam so appalled at these people and I hope they are stripped of their right to work in the medical field. Simply appalling. No "quick assessment". No stretcher, neck brace, cpr, O2 NOTHING!! They picked him up my his shirt! COME ONE!

My first thing I would have made the officers do is REMOVE THE CUFFS
You people come on here with your opinions like "oh he has a history", "oh hes obese", "oh he should have complied". Does that make you feel better about a dead man that "maybe" could have been saved if it were for the swift actions of a COURAGEOUS professionals of the medical field. Those emts and paramedics were weak and let the scared officers dictate the inhumane treatment of man lay dying in the street.

If it were you family member you'd would  be singing a different song and dance and calling for everyone involved including emts and parameDICKS to lose their jobs.
Your comments make me ashamed to stand next to you and claim I am a medical professional.
Stop following the herd and use you own MIND AND EYES. 
Something is happening is this world.
BRING COMPASSION BACK and stop justifying negligence just because they are our coworkers 
If anything these emts and paramedics involved need to GO!!
Much love and peace to you all.
Even the ones that respond negatively and ignorantly
This video made me a better paramedic and person. Hope it wakes all you future Nicole whatever her name is that touched his neck all willy nilly and did nothing!!
GREAT SPIRITS HAVE ALWAYS ENCOUNTERED VIOLENT OPPRESSION FROM MEDIOCRE MINDS--Albert Einstein
do not be afraid to go against the cuff and do what is MORALLY right.
Off to be the change I want to see in this world!


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## DesertMedic66 (Aug 11, 2014)

Niki Caragua said:


> OMG Seeing this comment had me seething with anger so much that I made a profile just to respond and let me tell you why! Anyone with half of a brain and especially "medical training" can see that this man was not faking it. So don't even go there. This was not a "fake seize" what you and I witnessed was this mans last breathe. OK he DIED. So do not side with EMS and say you can see why blah blah some other ignorance blah.
> 
> I have been an EMT/Paramedic for 25 years and in my 25 years and can tell you that this was gross negligence ALL AROUND.
> Ive seen fakes, Ive seen good cops, Ive seen bad cops, Ive seen good and bad cops die! Ive seen innocent, Ive seen guilty, Ive seen death.
> ...



Not resisting arrest would have probably saved his life too..... Just sayin'


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## vcuemt (Aug 11, 2014)

DesertEMT66 said:


> Not resisting arrest would have probably saved his life too..... Just sayin'


Never known a cop to exaggerate how much resistance someone was putting up.


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## ffemt8978 (Aug 11, 2014)

Last chance to take the LEO bashing elsewhere.


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## Niki Caragua (Aug 12, 2014)

DesertEMT66 said:


> Not resisting arrest would have probably saved his life too..... Just sayin'


I did address this, he should have let them take him the case would have been thrown out but I didn't hear any rights being read or anyone say "you are under arrest" Its easy to just say "he shouldn't have resisted" but what of the prohibited chokehold?? ...Just sayin


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## Handsome Robb (Aug 12, 2014)

Niki Caragua said:


> I did address this, he should have let them take him the case would have been thrown out but I didn't hear any rights being read or anyone say "you are under arrest" Its easy to just say "he shouldn't have resisted" but what of the prohibited chokehold?? ...Just sayin



I'm gonna ask this, what credentials or public safety experience do you possess? 

My guess is none. So don't try and tell people, who's job you've never done, how to do their job. It's that simple. 

Was this whole situation a disaster? Yes, it was. There's no denying that.

The chokehold did not kill him, positional asphyxia did. Are the police responsible?  That's up to our justice system to decide. But at what point do we question his personal life choices and there contribution to his death? 

Everyone is quick to say **** the police. Not many are quick to praise them.

My point is why not wait and see what happens rather than passing judgement. 

On the EMS side there's not much to be questioned...they were wrong no matter which way you twist it.


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## Niki Caragua (Aug 12, 2014)

Handsome Robb said:


> I'm gonna ask this, what credentials or public safety experience do you possess?
> 
> My guess is none. So don't try and tell people, who's job you've never done, how to do their job. It's that simple.
> 
> ...


Actually I mentioned in an earlier post I  am a PROUD COMPETENT paramedic of 25 years. Also my brother uncle grandfather and father are all policemen and appalled by this whole situation. Everyone is entitled to opinions some are more ignorant than others but everyone has one. I am a medical professional that has an opinion. Respect THAT. So yes that is my job sir.
No prohibited chokehold, no death...competent emts/paramedics possible resuscitation no getting around any of those facts. Im confident justice will be served here. Also a medical examiner that went to school way longer than you or myself said the hold killed him so what kind of pathology credentials do you have, plus the do you have the autopsy report to say the hold didn't. Lol so funny how average everyday monkeys challenge findings of a prestigious DOCTOR. Please no matter how you spin it doc says choke killed him...now what. Lol im done. Ignorance renders blindness and I need my sight


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## ffemt8978 (Aug 12, 2014)




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