# Propofol Killed Michael Jackson; Death Reportedly Ruled a Homicide



## Sasha (Aug 24, 2009)

*Propofol Killed Michael Jackson; Death Reportedly Ruled a Homicide*
Full Article: http://www.popeater.com/2009/08/24/...24/documents-propofol-killed-michael-jackson/


> Lethal doses of the powerful anesthetic propofol caused the death of Michael Jackson, according to newly unsealed legal documents. Jackson's doctor Conrad Murray said the King of Pop Jackson was suffering from insomnia, and that he had been giving Jackson 50 milligrams of propofol nightly.





> He then gave Jackson 25 milligrams of propofol mixed with other sedatives. On June 25, Murray says he gave Jackson valium, lorazepam, midazolam and other drugs. When Jackson still wasn't able to sleep, Murray gave him 25 milligrams of Propofol after Jackson demanded it.



Whoa! That's a bunch of powerful sedatives and respiratory depressants all mixed in one! No wonder he died!

Think the doc should be charged with murder? I'm mixed. I don't think that he meant to kill Jackson, and Jackson did demand it, but he has a responsiblity to prevent harm from being done to his patients..

Medics, if you are worried about side effects, but your patients are asking for pain killers, do you give or withold or find alternatives?

Please, no MJ bashing. Keep it professional, pretty please with sprinkles.


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## Akulahawk (Aug 24, 2009)

Yep. If he's been using them for several years, he could easily have built up a tolerance to the drugs. Add in the Propofol... and you have a recipe for... well... he's now taking a dirt nap.


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## usafmedic45 (Aug 25, 2009)

I believe the doc is guilt of nothing more than negligence....possibly manslaughter via reckless endangerment.  He deserves to lose his license without question and serve some time on probation and maybe to do some community service.  

That said I don't see any reason for him to wind up in prison for any lengthy period of time nor is it really going to serve any purpose since if you remove his ability to practice he is no longer like to be a recidivist "criminal".  Not to violate Sasha's kind request, but pull the doc's license, let the family sue him into oblivion and let's move on.  No great loss here.  

On a related note, I bet this company is making a killing (no pun intended) with the shirt they are selling:  http://55426.spreadshirt.com/us/US/Shop/Article/Index/article/Propofol-173225


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## Sasha (Aug 25, 2009)

usafmedic45 said:


> I believe the doc is guilt of nothing more than negligence....possibly manslaughter via reckless endangerment.  He deserves to lose his license without question and serve some time on probation and maybe to do some community service.
> 
> That said I don't see any reason for him to wind up in prison for any lengthy period of time nor is it really going to serve any purpose since if you remove his ability to practice he is no longer like to be a recidivist "criminal".  Not to violate Sasha's kind request, but pull the doc's license, let the family sue him into oblivion and let's move on. * No great loss here.  *
> 
> On a related note, I bet this company is making a killing (no pun intended) with the shirt they are selling:  http://55426.spreadshirt.com/us/US/Shop/Article/Index/article/Propofol-173225




Thankfully murder is murder regardless of what kind of "loss" it is. I would disagree with you, I think it's a great loss of a very taleneted musician and humanitarian.

However, I don't think it was iintentional murder. I honestly don't think the doctor meant to kill Jackson, he was just extremely negligent in his duty to do no harm.


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## Dominion (Aug 25, 2009)

Pull his license and let the family do what they want to the Doc.  Move on.  My opinion on the subject.


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## medic417 (Aug 25, 2009)

So now doctors will no longer be willing to treat patients the way the patients request as they will fear getting charged.  Sadly I see more patients suffering as a result of them pursuing this doctor for doing what his patient requested.  It's MJ's fault he shopped doctors till he got one that would do what he wanted.  Sorry MJ is as if not more at fault than the doctor.


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## Sasha (Aug 25, 2009)

medic417 said:


> So now doctors will no longer be willing to treat patients the way the patients request as they will fear getting charged.  Sadly I see more patients suffering as a result of them pursuing this doctor for doing what his patient requested.  It's MJ's fault he shopped doctors till he got one that would do what he wanted.  Sorry MJ is as if not more at fault than the doctor.



Patients usually have little to no medical training, the doctor has 4 years of med school under his belt. It is up to a doctor to step in and say "Hey look, this is going to hurt you."

If we treated patients the way they wanted to be treated, where do we draw the line? Assisted suicide? While a doctor should definitely listen to the patients desires and concerns and take them into consideration, that shouldn't be the sole deciding factor when providing care.


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## rescue99 (Aug 25, 2009)

usafmedic45 said:


> I believe the doc is guilt of nothing more than negligence....possibly manslaughter via reckless endangerment.  He deserves to lose his license without question and serve some time on probation and maybe to do some community service.
> 
> That said I don't see any reason for him to wind up in prison for any lengthy period of time nor is it really going to serve any purpose since if you remove his ability to practice he is no longer like to be a recidivist "criminal".  Not to violate Sasha's kind request, but pull the doc's license, let the family sue him into oblivion and let's move on.  No great loss here.
> 
> On a related note, I bet this company is making a killing (no pun intended) with the shirt they are selling:  http://55426.spreadshirt.com/us/US/Shop/Article/Index/article/Propofol-173225



I'm thinkin he deserves a little prison time just as as other street corner drug pusher should receive. If he pushing for one addict, he's done it for others. A jury can deliberate his innocence or guilt and a Judge decide his fate. His license is probably a gonner no matter what.


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## DawnParr (Aug 25, 2009)

Who knows what really was going on between the doc and Micheal... Maybe he paid the doc really really good money for the high doses.  I agree with USAFmedic. i think he just needs his license revoked and maybe some community service.


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## Sasha (Aug 25, 2009)

I am wondering if you all would say "Oh, just give him community service" if he had pushed a fatal dose of something on someone who did not have Jackson's bad reputation.


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## rescue99 (Aug 25, 2009)

DawnParr said:


> Who knows what really was going on between the doc and Micheal... Maybe he paid the doc really really good money for the high doses.  I agree with USAFmedic. i think he just needs his license revoked and maybe some community service.



While it's obvoious by reports that Jackson controlled the strings, the Doc has a duty. He bargained for a large sum of money to ignore that repsonsibility thus, ultimately ending in Jackson's death. Jackson is the cause of his own death just by nature of his addicition and would have found a new pusher but, Murray chose to be his pusher at the time. He took the risk and got caught. Justice will have to play this song through. Prisons are stuffed full of pushers who never intended to kill. Ask em..they'll all tell us how innocent they are.


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## maxwell (Aug 25, 2009)

By itself, 25mg propofol isn't *that* much, I give 25mg of milk of amnesia daily and sometimes (for drug naive pts, too...90 y/o church-goin' ladies) it does nothing!  However, when combined with wicked benzos, etc., yeah, it'll make you lowpertensive and maybe arrest.  Let us also remember that we are missing a huge piece of the story.  propofol isn't a sleep aid (does not induce good sleep).  the reason we love it so much is b/c it's quick on/quick off.  so, either he was getting propofol gtt, or propofol gave him really fantastic power naps for like 5 minutes.  What should happen to the doc?  He certainly should have his controlled drug license taken away...


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## usafmedic45 (Aug 25, 2009)

> Thankfully murder is murder regardless of what kind of "loss" it is.



No, homicide is not always murder/manslaughter/etc.  You're mistaking a coroner's determination that the death was the result of the actions of another and the legal standard of "homicide".  If we all followed your standard then _everyone_ who shoots a burglar would stand trial and probably go to jail, regardless of the circumstance.  Thankfully prosecutors DO judge the case based upon it's merits including (although most are loathe to admit it publicly) the "value" of the victim to society.  Why do you think a lot more time, effort and money gets put forth trying to solve and try the case of a suburban housewife who gets raped and murdered than some piece of drug-dealing ghetto trash? 



> I am wondering if you all would say "Oh, just give him community service" if he had pushed a fatal dose of something on someone who did not have Jackson's bad reputation.



I don't think he did it to be malicious and serving prison time is not going to "teach him a lesson" that removing his source of livelihood will do in a far cheaper and more expedious manner. 



> Sorry MJ is as if not more at fault than the doctor.



Yup.  Exactly.



> I would disagree with you, I think it's a great loss of a very taleneted musician and humanitarian.



I agree he USED to be a very talented musician (circa Man in the Mirror and all preceded that).  After that he just became a very rich creepo who probably molested a bunch of kids.  I would not classify him as a humanitarian since most of what he did seemed to be geared towards providing himself access to small children and ingratiating himself to their parents.  That self-aggrandizing attitude is also the reason why I can't stand Bono from U2 despite the fact that he does do a lot of good, although he's never been accused of molesting kids he's trying to "help".


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## Sasha (Aug 25, 2009)

> I don't think he did it to be malicious and serving prison time is not going to "teach him a lesson" that removing his source of livelihood will do in a far cheaper and more expedious manner.



Where does it say that malicious intent is a necessity to serve jail time? People go to jail all the time for vehicular manslaughter due to driving while texting, driving while drunk, just plain speeding. Parents get charged and go to jail for praying for their sick child to get better. Do you think they had malicious intent? 

Malicious intent is not necessary, negligence is. He was negligent. He should serve jail time.


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## usafmedic45 (Aug 26, 2009)

> Where does it say that malicious intent is a necessity to serve jail time?



Did I say it was?  I was merely making a statement not trying to tie it into something larger.  Please don't read more into my statements than is actually there (unless it's reading in sarcasm, which is usually present).  If I want to say something pertinent to a discussion, you know I just say it and don't worry about offending you or anyone else on this forums pretty much.  I suggest reading on and paying particular attention to the reasons why people actually are sent to prison or rather why we use that form of punishment- ineffective as it is- instead of just executing people or lopping off extremities, etc. 



> He should serve jail time.



Not necessarily.  This sort of thing is more common  than you seem to believe (not very common, but not something on the order of once in a blue moon). You're doing the exact opposite of what you get so irritated at us for doing: Because you think Jackson was a great dancer/singer, that somehow warrants his "killer" being punished to a greater extent than the doc who through brazen hubris or just plain ol' stupidity kills some average Joe.  Do you see the hypocrisy here?

In an average case of this, the doc would lose his license- maybe not even for life- and be sued.  Very few of these  cases ever go to trial because of the cost and the realization that the reasons we as a society imprison people (you seem ignorant of what they are so I'll give you the high points:  to "reform" them or to segregate a dangerous person from society at large) do not really apply to a doc who simply decided to put profits before his duties to his patients.  The quickest way to remove the "danger" and the best way to punish a physician in this case is to pull his license to practice and just let the family rip him apart in a malpractice suit.


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## MrBrown (Aug 26, 2009)

Reckon this dude has been spending too long out in the Nevada sun (been there, done that and I know it gets freakin' hot!)


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## Sasha (Aug 26, 2009)

> Not necessarily. This sort of thing is more common than you seem to believe (not very common, but not something on the order of once in a blue moon). You're doing the exact opposite of what you get so irritated at us for doing: Because you think Jackson was a great dancer/singer, that somehow warrants his "killer" being punished to a greater extent than the doc who through brazen hubris or just plain ol' stupidity kills some average Joe. Do you see the hypocrisy here?



Not at all. I don't care who they killed, could have OD'd Bin Laden or some anonymous person in North Dakota and I would still consider them the cause of death, the killer, and desire jail time. You should know better than that from our conversations. You are trying to twist me into be some hero worshipper. I think it's a tragedy when anyone dies, and there is no denial that he was a great entertainer and a humanitarian. Does that mean his death is anymore tragic than the death of soemone else? No.

Prison originally was intended to punish the criminal, rehabilitation did not come until later. And the doctor killed someone. He deserves to be punished.


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## firecoins (Aug 26, 2009)

Sasha said:


> I am wondering if you all would say "Oh, just give him community service" if he had pushed a fatal dose of something on someone who did not have Jackson's bad reputation.



without a doubt yes!  No jail time is deserved by the MD at all.


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## usafmedic45 (Aug 26, 2009)

> Does that mean his death is anymore tragic than the death of soemone else?



Then why are you pushing for a greater sentence than he would receive for being involved in the death of you or I?



> Prison originally was intended to punish the criminal, rehabilitation did not come until later.



Yes, but that is not the primary reason for it any more.  Trust me, I've got a couple of buddies who are lawyers and they ripped me apart over making the assumption you are making.  



> He deserves to be punished.



That's the problem: your definition of sufficient punishment and that of the medical and legal system (and most of the people on this forum) are probably going to be two separate issues.  Now you know how it felt when you accused me of more or less being a cold, insensitive sadistic jerk for wanting that woman in Texas to die regardless of the extenuating circumstances.  You can't apply the law as you see fit and that's exactly what you're doing as demonstrated by the two cases.  Either apply the letter of the law or just spout off and expect to be called to account for it. 



> there is no denial that he was a great entertainer and a humanitarian.



I think we agree on the entertainer part, but as far as him being a great humanitarian, he's about as much one of the "great" ones as I am the next in line to be Pope. 



> I would still consider them the cause of death, the killer, and desire jail time.



You're oversimplifying the issues at play here, just like you did in that "I ate mah bab-eh!" case down in Texas.  It's not as cut and dry as you want to make it and the doc, while bearing some responsibility, does not bear sole responsibility since he was acting under coercion (read as: the promise of absolutely filthy amounts of cash) on the part of the "victim". 



> You should know better than that from our conversations.



I have just as difficult a time trying to figure you out as you claim to have figuring me out.  One minute you're willing to forgive and beg for mercy and sympathy for a woman who deserves no quarter since she butchered and ate her child but the next you're willing to lead a lynch mob after a doctor who at most deserves a suspended sentence, probation, community service and the loss of his license because he exercised some bad judgment and _inadvertently_ killed the creepiest man in America, an all-but convicted pedophile who fancied himself to be some sort of mix of Diana Ross and Peter Pan.


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## Sasha (Aug 28, 2009)

The major difference between the woman who ate her baby and the doctor is the woman was mentally ill. The doctor's crime was not because he was mentally ill unless the APA recently decided to list greed as a mental illness. 



> Then why are you pushing for a greater sentence than he would receive for being involved in the death of you or I?



If he was involved in the death of anyone where he neglected his duty as a doctor to protect his patient from harm and knowingly gave him medication that would harm him (And look at what he was given. Any idiot would know it's dangerous.) then I would fully support him going to jail. Whether it be the most deplorable human in the world or myself, or even you.


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## JonTullos (Aug 28, 2009)

The doctor should have known this cocktail was going to do great harm.  The first rule in any kind of medical practice is "do no harm."  Even if he's found to have done nothing wrong legally (which I doubt he will be) he committed a major ethical breach.  If nothing else he needs his license pulled.  I know I wouldn't trust my dog to a doctor who would do something like this.


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## usafmedic45 (Aug 28, 2009)

> If he was involved in the death of anyone where he neglected his duty as a doctor to protect his patient from harm and knowingly gave him medication that would harm him (And look at what he was given. Any idiot would know it's dangerous.) then I would fully support him going to jail. Whether it be the most deplorable human in the world or myself, or even you.



Yes, but that is not the normal legal punishment for that unless you're talking completely egregious and more or less intentional malfeasance (which this case demonstrates neither, although it is pretty brazenly stupid, I will give you that much).  So why should this doctor be punished more harshly than the average doctor who kills someone through boneheaded stupidity (which exactly what your demands for prison time are).


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## usafmedic45 (Aug 28, 2009)

> The doctor should have known this cocktail was going to do great harm.



Point taken, but chances are he had done it multiple times before and not had a fatal outcome.  The old saying about "Relying on experience alone simply means you make the same mistakes over and over with an ever increasing level of confidence" probably played major role in his poor decision making regarding poly-pharmacy in this case.


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## medic_texas (Aug 28, 2009)

Drug addiction/drug-seeking behavior killed Michael Jackson.  The greedy/fame-seeking physicans enabled him and fed his addictions.  

Humans are evil creatures.


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## daedalus (Aug 28, 2009)

JonTullos said:


> The doctor should have known this cocktail was going to do great harm.  The first rule in any kind of medical practice is "do no harm."  Even if he's found to have done nothing wrong legally (which I doubt he will be) he committed a major ethical breach.  If nothing else he needs his license pulled.  I know I wouldn't trust my dog to a doctor who would do something like this.



I disagree with your entire post. Read this:
http://thehappyhospitalist.blogspot.com/2009/08/lethal-doses-of-propofol-found-in.html

written by a board certified internal medicine doctor.


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## mycrofft (Aug 29, 2009)

*That darned propofol, killing again and again...*

Just like for every horrible plastic surgery job, there's a doctor (or SOMEONE) administering the drug that kills in cases like this who is not following the guidelines because "they know better".
That or he was driven mad by listening to "Smooth Criminal" for an hour stuck in an elevator.


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