# How many lights is too many?



## Nocturnatrix (Dec 30, 2007)

*Using lights for non ems use*

This is a rumor that is flying through my co...

An emt from a neighboring department had been flying down a major highway with his lights on when no call was dispatched...
Unfortunately for him his chief was behind him and saw him racing down the road... he gets a hold of him an hour later and he had said that he had to go to the bathroom and it was an emergency! He was suspended and had his lights taken away! 

Who would be that ignorant to endanger peoples lives because he had to go to the bathroom! and now that co is getting put under a microscope because of it!

Think before you act... because you may be effecting more people than you think!


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## Ridryder911 (Dec 31, 2007)

Thus # 1005 reason not to have vollies with emergency lights. No reason too... leave the lights and sirens on the emergency units. 

R/r 911


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## MEDIC213 (Dec 31, 2007)

Ridryder911 said:


> Thus # 1005 reason not to have vollies with emergency lights. No reason too... leave the lights and sirens on the emergency units.
> 
> R/r 911



+1000

A lot of our volunteer FF's here have them on their personal vehicles, and it's no uncommon to see them go blasting through town. Every now and then we'll catch one running through lights without checking up. One of them caused a wreck because of it a few years back. Idiots!!!!


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## medic001918 (Dec 31, 2007)

A great demonstration of why POV's don't need emergency lights.

Shane
NREMT-P


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## skyemt (Dec 31, 2007)

what about all of us "vollies" who have lights in our pov's, use them safely to get to where we need to go?

let's not get judged by the "idiots" who don't act wisely... there are plenty of us that don't do that stuff.

thanks.


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## Ridryder911 (Dec 31, 2007)

Yes, it would be a shame to judge all by a few... if that was the case, but I feel it is a rarity instead of the opposite (check out VFI web-site). Realistically how much time is really saved if you really cannot speed or are supposed to obey local laws? 

Sorry, excessive speed and those that do not want to abide by the rules ruins it for all... just like in the professional world. 

R/r 911


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## medic001918 (Dec 31, 2007)

skyemt said:


> what about all of us "vollies" who have lights in our pov's, use them safely to get to where we need to go?
> 
> let's not get judged by the "idiots" who don't act wisely... there are plenty of us that don't do that stuff.
> 
> thanks.



If you're one of the ones who uses the lights responsibly, then you're probably not really saving much (if any) time in your response while taking an extra risk and liability.  Leave emergency lights for emergency vehicles during emergency response.  Otherwise, you can only go with the flow of traffic anyway.

Shane
NREMT-P


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## Asclepius (Dec 31, 2007)

All I can say is that I have known many more volunteers who use their lights correctly and safely than I have who don't. I guess we should just condemn the whole process since there is the occasional rogue spirit.


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## rescuepoppy (Jan 1, 2008)

*Using lights*

As a member of a volly rescue squad with over 30 members we have had only one incident in the last ten years that was a speeding ticket to a member in a pov. We stress safety as a routine matter of training, Recently while responding in an ambulance to a wreck I was passed in a no nonsense manner by a private transport ambulance on the left side as well. Law enforcement is dealing with that. But that guy was a professional, so I guess both sides have idiots.


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## hitechredneckemt (Jan 1, 2008)

Im a volly and i have lights and siren on my POV. I live in a very rural area of south-eastern Ohio. We have alot of older drivers in our area (not to mention the amish in there horse and buggys) that drive 15mph not matter where there going on what road. i use my lights and siren very safely. Due Reguard is always first priority whether in my POV or in a squad.


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## firecoins (Jan 1, 2008)

hitechredneckemt said:


> Im a volly and i have lights and siren on my POV. I live in a very rural area of south-eastern Ohio. We have alot of older drivers in our area (not to mention the amish in there horse and buggys) that drive 15mph not matter where there going on what road. i use my lights and siren very safely. Due Reguard is always first priority whether in my POV or in a squad.



I would recommend not giving the Amish vollies lights than.  Upsets the horses....Someone had to say it.


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## skyemt (Jan 2, 2008)

in my area, they are not used to speed either... there are many slow trucks, and people who drive very slowly... more trying to just "go" the speed limit...

have saved minutes, and i've seen on here where "minutes count"... so let's not say now that they don't.


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## Ridryder911 (Jan 2, 2008)

skyemt said:


> have saved minutes, and i've seen on here where "minutes count"... so let's not say now that they don't.



Actually, if the minutes really counted, chances are you are not going to change or make the difference. Sorry, jeopardizing yourself, public and property for a few minutes in a severe critical patient is not going to change the outcome. Study the outcome and statistics of outcome data and those that are saved by the "minutes counts"... i.e. no such thing as the mythical Golden Hour in trauma either

R/r 911


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## triemal04 (Jan 2, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> Thus # 1005 reason not to have vollies with emergency lights. No reason too... leave the lights and sirens on the emergency units.
> 
> R/r 911


Geez...I would have expected better than that from you.  

That's reason number 1011.  1005 is that driving like a bat out of hell only to get on scene and realize that there is nothing you can actually do for the patient since you have no equipment is pointless.


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## skyemt (Jan 2, 2008)

guys, guys....

why is having slow moving vehicles pull to the side, so that i can go the normal speed limit, not like a bat out of hell, not jeopardizing life or limb,
such a big deal?

so, maybe getting there 3 minutes sooner is not a big deal...

but, why should i not get there as fast as i can, without being reckless?
why shouldn't the truck moving at 20 mph pull over as a courtesy in response to my light?

if this is a big deal, you don't enough to crusade against...

geez! give an emt a break!


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## SwissEMT (Jan 2, 2008)

skyemt said:


> guys, guys....
> 
> why is having slow moving vehicles pull to the side, so that i can go the normal speed limit, not like a bat out of hell, not jeopardizing life or limb,
> such a big deal?


Because in all reality, that happens so rarely it's simply not worth the risk.
Stop lying to yourself, YOU GO FASTER WHEN THEY'RE ON.

NOBODY goes the speed limit with lights on.


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## MMiz (Jan 3, 2008)

SwissEMT said:


> Because in all reality, that happens so rarely it's simply not worth the risk.
> Stop lying to yourself, YOU GO FASTER WHEN THEY'RE ON.
> 
> NOBODY goes the speed limit with lights on.


It's true.  Our service pulled several respected studies that showed that medics drove 10+ MPH over the speed limit when running RLS.  The siren and flashing created some sort of psychological condition.  Interesting read, and I found it to be true.


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## BossyCow (Jan 5, 2008)

I am able to have lights on my POV and I choose not to.  Yes its frustrating to be responding to a call behind that elderly gentleman driving his 1978 ford station wagon 35 mph down the 50mph highway. But, it gives me a chance to slow down, think about the call I'm responding to, take my own pulse and generally calm down the adrenalin response.  

Countless studies have shown that our ability to sense time is impaired during emergencies.  So the time we save is generally an illusion.  It makes us feel better to be going fast!  It 'seems' much more efficient.  But it truly isn't.  

Risk vs. gain.  Yes minutes count, but half a minute gain at the risk of danger/injury to ourselves or that little amish guy on the road ahead of us, isn't worth it.  We are simply trading one life for the other.


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## JPINFV (Jan 5, 2008)

There is no reason to have lights on a POV, period. If they want a faster response then they should either go paid or designate someone to take the ambulance home with them so that the ambulance responds immediately. Lights on POVs isn't like what is seen in the TV show "Life."




SwissEMT said:


> NOBODY goes the speed limit


You mean that sign isn't showing a recommended maximum? 

/grew up in California. Freeways have a 65mph speed limit, traffic goes 75-80, and the highway patrol is passing you on the right.


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## emtwacker710 (Jan 8, 2008)

Ok, I can understand the red lights and sirens on peoples vehicles that are certified through their sqaud and the state to be a 1st response vehicle, at least that is how it is in my area (Queensbury, NY) Blue and green lights on the other hand do help somewhat, by drivers giving you the opportunity to pass them you can save time, it may be by not being backed up 4 cars at the next stop sign because you passed them 2 miles down the road, you never know, but it does save you time.


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## firecoins (Jan 8, 2008)

Most drivers here do 10 + over the speed limit.  If you have the light you tend to go much faster.  I don't have the light cause I can get to my building fairly quick without l+s.


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## Ops Paramedic (Mar 2, 2008)

*Using of lights & sirens for non emergency use*

Yip, we have them here to, all the time!!

 I would have to say that it is more the blue lights than the red lights out here, and these lights are often used to get them through hectic traffic.  Pretty much anyone who is anyone can stick some emergency lights in(side) their own vehicles, however should you place any lights on the outside of your vehicle, you would have to register it as an emergency vehicle, otherwise you could win yourself a pair of iron bangles!!

  There are a lot of people who have emergency lights in thier vehicles and stop on scene long after the emergency services has arrived.  They pick these calls up on the radio, and that is not an issued radio, but rather a scanner and then turn out.  Yes, i understand that we do not always have enough recources to go around, but the call will be serviced, irrespective.  We call them weekend warriors...

Just a post to let you know whats happening this side of the world.


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## MSDeltaFlt (Mar 2, 2008)

You said this is a rumor.  Can you prove it?  Sounds like it might be an urban legend.

Every hospital/agency/service/career area always has someone with Chronic Rectocerebral Inversion Syndrome and who suffers Acute Exacerbations of this disease from time to time.  These are the ones who will kill someone eventually.


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## milhouse (Mar 2, 2008)

now if i was on a firedepartment yeah sure i would love to have lights and sirens because i think they are cool lol. but i think they really should only be on the emergency vehicles and maybe only the officers with the lights and sirens on the POV. say if some sort of diaster like say a tournado just hit there area and they need to do traffic control and there rigs are being used in other area but other than that only officers. 

now there was a study done in normal traffic conditions that you would only get to the scence like some 45 seconds faster. now is it really worth it getting to the FD 45 secs faster sure you may not make the first engine out. but if your needed you'll make the next rig out. 

so take your time and get to the department safely


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## skyemt (Mar 2, 2008)

ok... plenty of posts bashing vollies and their lights... very unsafe..

i get it... although, i know of no bad outcomes anywhere near my area...

BUT WHY IS IT...

ambulance safety, yes the rigs with the lights and sirens, is a major problem in this country... very UNSAFE operations... perhaps, we should re-evaluate the use of lights and sirens, not on pov's, but on the emergency vehicles themselves...

there IS a real problem here...


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## BruceD (Mar 2, 2008)

This is completely my opinion, but I also believe that the more lights and sirens are used, the more likely a person is to drive unsafely even without lights.  

Kind of like when you drive on a 70mph highway for 6 hrs, then get off on a country road, 55mph seems like a snail-crawl.  In the same way, it seems that the longer you drive with the lights and sirens, the more likely you would be to drive a bit more aggressively without them.

I could see in the future all L&S having some sort of computer port and departments requiring downloading of L&S use/checking against actual calls.  

Be safe guys, we need you *all*.
-B


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## Ridryder911 (Mar 2, 2008)

skyemt said:


> ok... plenty of posts bashing vollies and their lights... very unsafe..
> 
> i get it... although, i know of no bad outcomes anywhere near my area...
> 
> ...



Actually there is many reported accidents r/t injuries and deaths from POV with l/s. Since they are not really considered a "true emergency vehicle" it is overlooked many times. Check out Volunteer Fireman Insurance website to see their promotion of safety in POV's. it is alarming how many accidents there are out there. 

Sorry, I will not honor POV's with lights and sirens and pull over. I don't trust anyone with such. Even our undercover vehicles in my state must be manned a fully uniformed person in a unmarked unit. Too many yahoo's out there. 

R/r 911


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## milhouse (Mar 2, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> Sorry, I will not honor POV's with lights and sirens and pull over. I don't trust anyone with such. Even our undercover vehicles in my state must be manned a fully uniformed person in a unmarked unit. Too many yahoo's out there.
> 
> R/r 911



i think you run the chance of getting yourself in trouble at somepoint with that attitude. because not every "cop" or some one in LE is in uniform or in a marked car. for example detectives are usually in an unmarked car with there uniform only consisting of a badge on the hip and a gun on the hip and maybe a polo and ive seen it. now to know what car is truly a unmarked police car. i think would be extremely hard because ive seen a viraity of cop cars and other "unmarked" cars. ive seen the chevy mailbu as a police car. i remember once when i lived back in IL there was a state trooper that we passed he had a guy pulled over in a mom and dad mini-van what this guy was doing was acting like he was pulled over or broke down or something and he would pull people over. and he was in FULL trooper uniform with there fancy hat and everything

so to say that you wont give right of way to any POV or what you think is a POV i think your setting your self up for problems in the future.

i dont mean to jump you just going on what i know.......


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## Ridryder911 (Mar 2, 2008)

Detectives usually do not respond with lights and sirens or do traffic work. In my area we have determined that most detective work can await for them to travel safely. Really, will the homicide get any worse or the robbery get worse? As well, those are usually concealed type and usually do not have a mounted light bar on top of their Yugo or 4 X 4 Dodge Hemi.

Usually, I can detect a city type vehicle than the "Billy Bob Rescuer" with his P.O.V. Again, I am talking about in my area alone. It is illegal to have lights and sirens on any POV's and yes the state Fire Service is about 80% volunteer. State Attorney General ruled that private POV's are just that, private and unless they are owned and insured by that Government identity they should not be considered an Emergency Vehicle. 

As well, to prevent placebo cops that have been known to attack, rape and even kill people,  all officers and those representing an official capacity has to be in full uniform to make a stop. I would suggest all states to consider such action. There is no reason for a Detective to be working traffic, undercover. 

Sorry, L/S only saves a few seconds in recognized emergency vehicles, and truthfully studies continue that it might be warranted to remove them altogether. I have read at one time some cities are performing such studies and have so far reported that they actually arrive faster without lights and sirens. 

I do wonder though, if we removed the L/S on how many EMT's we would have?

R/r 911


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## milhouse (Mar 2, 2008)

yeah i didnt mean to jump you or anything like that just going with what i knew. 

now thats a good point about what would happen if the lights were removed because i know a couple people who joined just to be able to go fast and go woo woo with there hair on fire. now dont get me wrong i love going lights and sirens also but thats not why i joined EMS i joined because i wanted to help people start a career (and get out of fast food) and to go fast and go woo woo. and i would be a little disappointed if they removed it because im still young and young in EMS were im young dumb, full of adrenaline and other stuff lol but i wouldnt leave EMS. 

now i wonder if there would ever be problems with PT's or family members when they call the ambulance and there dad or grandpa is arrested in the bathroom after his morning glory. and they are waiting outside to guide the ambualnce in and they see the ambulance just taking its time. no light no sirens. i think there would be a lot of problems because with some people im sure its a relaxing feeling when they hear the ambulance's siren and then see  it turn the corner. and the feeling of help is finally here is a good feeling. i could see lawsuits with that saying that they took to long to respond because they didnt run hot L/S to my fathers aid


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## skyemt (Mar 2, 2008)

milhouse said:


> yeah i didnt mean to jump you or anything like that just going with what i knew.
> 
> now thats a good point about what would happen if the lights were removed because i know a couple people who joined just to be able to go fast and go woo woo with there hair on fire. now dont get me wrong i love going lights and sirens also but thats not why i joined EMS i joined because i wanted to help people start a career (and get out of fast food) and to go fast and go woo woo. and i would be a little disappointed if they removed it because im still young and young in EMS were im young dumb, full of adrenaline and other stuff lol but i wouldnt leave EMS.
> 
> now i wonder if there would ever be problems with PT's or family members when they call the ambulance and there dad or grandpa is arrested in the bathroom after his morning glory. and they are waiting outside to guide the ambualnce in and they see the ambulance just taking its time. no light no sirens. i think there would be a lot of problems because with some people im sure its a relaxing feeling when they hear the ambulance's siren and then see  it turn the corner. and the feeling of help is finally here is a good feeling. i could see lawsuits with that saying that they took to long to respond because they didnt run hot L/S to my fathers aid



you can't have it both ways... it is either about perception, or safety...
if it's perception, than nothing wrong with POV's having a light...

if it's about safety, than you must examine the safety of running rigs with lights and sirens, for the same concerns as POV's... if seconds don't matter, than why should an ambulance blast through intersections with lights and sirens?  totally unsafe, and the accidents are proving it.

like i said, you can't have it both ways....


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## jester_1269 (Mar 3, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> Sorry, L/S only saves a few seconds in recognized emergency vehicles, and truthfully studies continue that it might be warranted to remove them altogether. I have read at one time some cities are performing such studies and have so far reported that they actually arrive faster without lights and sirens.
> R/r 911



Eh, I dont know about a certified emergency vehicle being faster responding w/o lights, I cant really think of a time I've thought "gee, woulda got here faster without the lights" Now, I usually dont run my sirens at night, or when we get on the highway, but in city they work pretty well.  I think it all comes down to P.E.B.S.S. (problem exists between seat and steering wheel.) As far as personal vehicles, I can understand their usefulness, though think they are overrated.  I think they should be permitted mainly for EMS response, when seconds/minutes actually do matter.  If someone is having a massive MI, arterial bleed, or somthing of that nature, they dont have 10 minutes to wait for me to get out of traffic if I'm the tech on call.  Now, I'm not saying minutes dont matter in a fire, its just (barring an entrapment) most fire scenes take hours to control, so your span of time to respond is much broader.

For the record, I'm both a paid and volunteer EMT, and an ER tech


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## paramedix (Mar 3, 2008)

I have tried responding w/o l/s, but hey... I'm sure you guys dont have the taxis over there... I mean taxis!!!

People dont even give way with l/s, we have tried responding w/o it, but it posed a huge danger for us, especially responding down the emergency lanes. People just quickly pop into the lane to see whats ahead and thats when you have a Roxette concert... crash boom bang!

Our emergency vehicle accident statistics are extremely high in South Africa.


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## Outbac1 (Mar 3, 2008)

My personal opinion is POV's should not have lights and sirens period. Too much potential for accidents. Emergency vehicles should stay within about 20KPH (10-15mph) of the speed limit with suitable road and traffic conditions. One should NEVER blast through an intersection, regardless if the light is red or green. Just because a light is green doesn't mean some knucklehead isn't going to run the red from their side. For red lights and stop signs one should stop, (or at least very nearly so, eg:10-15kph), then proceed with caution. If this were done intersection collisions would be greatly reduced. 

  The time saved with L&S is not usually that much except maybe on a long run, and then 5 minutes is not a lot. I can't help the pt if I don't get there. We used to have a saying back when I drove rally cars. "To finish first, first finish" It still applies.


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## skyemt (Mar 3, 2008)

Outbac1 said:


> My personal opinion is POV's should not have lights and sirens period. Too much potential for accidents. Emergency vehicles should stay within about 20KPH (10-15mph) of the speed limit with suitable road and traffic conditions. One should NEVER blast through an intersection, regardless if the light is red or green. Just because a light is green doesn't mean some knucklehead isn't going to run the red from their side. For red lights and stop signs one should stop, (or at least very nearly so, eg:10-15kph), then proceed with caution. If this were done intersection collisions would be greatly reduced.
> 
> The time saved with L&S is not usually that much except maybe on a long run, and then 5 minutes is not a lot. I can't help the pt if I don't get there. We used to have a saying back when I drove rally cars. "To finish first, first finish" It still applies.



from what most have stated, the extra minutes are usually not going to amount to any help for the patient (ok, excluding the most emergent of patients). that being said, why even take the risk of an extra 15 mph over the speed limit?? as it has so eloquently been stated up and down this thread, it is extra risk for little to no benefit. so why take the risk at all?

ambulances are not above the consequences of unnecessary risk.


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## Outbac1 (Mar 3, 2008)

Skyemt good point. For the majority of calls it isn't worth it. However there is the odd call where it could make the difference,eg: child choking.  Most of us would push a little for that. Many still drive way too fast on all calls. My hope is to make people think about the speed they use and slow down. We probably can't get them to stop reckless driving overnight but maybe we can slow them down a little. Slower than before is not perfect but it is better than it was.


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## mikie (Mar 3, 2008)

MMiz said:


> It's true.  Our service pulled several respected studies that showed that medics drove 10+ MPH over the speed limit when running RLS.  The siren and flashing created some sort of psychological condition.  Interesting read, and I found it to be true.



Are any of these studies online or in print that I can access?  I'd be curious to read them.  I would agree (though, only a hypothesis/opinion) that people that use their lights (NOT everyone) do indeed drive differently: faster or not.


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## Ridryder911 (Mar 3, 2008)

There are several studies that have been performed that have demonstrated the individuals while going with l/s automatically/impulsively sped up the speed, as well as heart rate increased, respiratory rate increased (basically sympathetic overdrive). 

Basically, the studies describe that we actually have to be taught and control ourselves to be more careful and to actually force ourselves to slow down. 

Sorry, I do not have the studies name-one can Google to obtain. 

R/r 911


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## TgerFoxMark (Mar 5, 2008)

As someone who works paid in a City and as a Volly out in the county, L+S... kinda Useless on the backroads, INVALUABLE in Rush Hour Traffic. I know the Thrill of the Siren, but more often it gets on my own nerves. However, Lights on POV's at a Scene... good for VIS. helps SOME people see that there is something going on, and avoid. Lights on POV's responding... Useful on my Volly where we can respond to scene, lets pt. know we are here. Worthless in a city. Official rigs get almost no leeway from the public, they pay even less to a POV. 
Arguements can be made for both, but in my experiance (yea, i have lights. they protect me when im helping someone. yeah, the rest of the Paid people think i'm nuts. The volleys, accept it as normal. its all based on where you are and what you do...
and a final note, Lights and Siren help get you through the traffic snarl caused by any rush hour highway wreck.

just my 0.02

I may be a wacker in the city service views... but im a pretty normal volly.


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## firecoins (Mar 5, 2008)

I use lights to see in the dark.  Its an uncommon use in EMS but I do uncommon things.


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## skyemt (Mar 5, 2008)

never had a patient know i was there because i had a small green light on my car...  lol...

wow... after reading the pages of posts, and some of the, let's call them interesting, reasons vollies have for POV's with lights, i am seriously considering removing mine!

please, someone, give me a valid reason to keep it....
but alas... there won't be one...


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## TgerFoxMark (Mar 5, 2008)

skyemt said:


> never had a patient know i was there because i had a small green light on my car...  lol...
> 
> wow... after reading the pages of posts, and some of the, let's call them interesting, reasons vollies have for POV's with lights, i am seriously considering removing mine!
> 
> ...



*grins* that may be true, but it helps the family thats looking out the window wondering why we are not there yet... Time seems to go slow when you are waiting. 8 minutes is an eternity.


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## emtgirl_2008 (Mar 5, 2008)

Thank God morgan doesn't offer that for volunteer fireman otherwise i'd have to lock my husband up or break the lights!! I honsetly hope he wouldn't do it but.......you never know!


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## BossyCow (Mar 5, 2008)

TgerFoxMark said:


> *grins* that may be true, but it helps the family thats looking out the window wondering why we are not there yet... Time seems to go slow when you are waiting. 8 minutes is an eternity.



True, but I've found that when I knock on the door, they generally know I'm there. It's legal for me to have lights, but I don't and won't. They are totally useless and encourage us to drive like idiots.


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## mattulance (Mar 5, 2008)

Lights are tools just like anything else. The responsibility falls with the person behind the wheel to use them properly. Even in areas that do not have enough traffic to make them usefull while responding they can still be very usefull to protect you and your vehicle from traffic on scene.


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## Ridryder911 (Mar 5, 2008)

I do wonder how many people would actually volunteer of there were no ability to use l/s on either POV or emergency trucks? The same even as a paid professional? 

I would imaging it would be high, which is shameful that there is such a thing as whakerism. 

R/r 911


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## Jon (Mar 6, 2008)

I've got no lights on my POV... my service doesn't allow them, because we run FROM STATION. I've got no need to have them.

I've got an amber teardrop that I found at a yardsale that lives in my trunk... I've pulled it out to use on rental vehicles at work... but never needed it on my own car.

I've occasionally gone into the squad when they are busy, so that I can get out the 4th or 5th truck if needed... it takes me about 10 minutes, and I don't speed excessively.


As for using warning lights. Here is something my one Lt. taught me a long time ago:
If you drive like an a**hole with blue lights, someone is going to call the fire chief and he'll give you a hard time. If you just drive like an a**hole.... you are just driving like an idiot... you only have to worry about having to explain your actions to the PD (and our blue lights don't give us any legal rights, anyway).  - seemed like a good way to look at it.


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## LucidResq (Mar 6, 2008)

My SAR team has 3 trucks with lights and sirens. Lights on POVs are prohibited. 

We don't even *really* need the lights and sirens on the trucks. I've only seen them run code 3 once, because it was for a rescue off a curvy mountain road and the FD was waiting for us to provide them with a ATV so they could get a paramedic into this guy with a bad femur fx. We didn't drive any faster than normal... the only reason we ran with lights and sirens was because of the curviness.... we were hoping drivers would at least hear us coming. 

The only other situation in which I've seen the lights used was during an assist at a traffic accident that we happened to drive by while coming home from a training. Parked and ran the lights for protection.

Really, from what I've seen people drive even more like jackasses when you run code 3. They just panic and half of them don't even pull over to the right. They just aren't justifiable in most situations and the risk of running code is usually much greater than any possible benefits, especially in a POV.


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## scottmcleod (Mar 10, 2008)

Let's lighten this up by laughing at some POV's that people have posted on Ye Olde Noob-Tube...

EDIT: I apologise if any of these are actual dept. units, I just grabbed whichever ones looked most likely to be daily drivers / daily over-compensators... (oops, did I say that out loud? *cough*STUPIDHUGEPICKUP*cough*). 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYW6xGAePdA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21gGfKZiu_c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhIBb7tycz4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sImJzE1oaM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw2CiRM4ZpU

... christ, this goes on forever!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YevvqKBUtB4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvUMfNcm58o (a lexus? come on...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6fyJZMvb7Y (a MINIVAN!? k, you're killing me!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uvo6wCFkh2Q (another minivan...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw2CiRM4ZpU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MP3dcBWZF2Y (This last one kills me! Check out the strips of LEDs in the grill... also, minivan.)

I think I know what r/r meant by "he can tell a whacker coming from a mile away..."

And seriously, I think you could PROBABLY get someone to move out of your way with your flashing high-beams, or 4-ways, and your horn, if you REALLY had to. Just make sure you've got a nice fire / EMS sticker on the back for him to see when you pass him, and there probably won't be hard feelings.


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## medic417 (Mar 10, 2008)

Do those that have lights on POV check that their insurance covers them responding?


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## Canoeman (Mar 10, 2008)

Medical miracles are done in the back of the ambulance by the people that can make it to the scene and to the hospital with the patient.

We had tooooooo many issues with our members responding TO the station utilizing green lights and driving irrationally. I was having complaints from citizens who would see these poor habits who also listen to the scanners. (as well as the local LEOs)

 I then prohibited the use of the lights about five years ago. Our volunteers HAVE to stay at the station period. On call personnel at home drive to station to man an ambulance when the other one is on a call.

Ambulances are prohibited from driving with lights and sirens to a BLS call.
Call requiring lights and sirens TO the hospital must meet Unsatable or Critical criteria and require a written L&S screen when they do.

We have not had any vehicle incident or "near misses" in five years and guess what - No Complaints. 

I think everyone gets the big picture with this now.

I have also been able to reduce our insurance rates by 7% by also teaching CEVO and EVOC that is also required by everyone who gets behind the wheel of a rig. 

The best outcome - 96% < 1 minute out of chute / 8 min average time to call -- 60% save rate in our cardic arrests.

hmmmmmmmm   

Canoeman


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## skyemt (Mar 10, 2008)

Canoeman said:


> Medical miracles are done in the back of the ambulance by the people that can make it to the scene and to the hospital with the patient.
> 
> We had tooooooo many issues with our members responding TO the station utilizing green lights and driving irrationally. I was having complaints from citizens who would see these poor habits who also listen to the scanners. (as well as the local LEOs)
> 
> ...



if you are averaging 8 minutes to an arrest, you are only two minutes shy of the time when almost no one is resuscitated...

how are you getting a "60%" save rate, which is well above any study ever done for that time frame?


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## JPINFV (Mar 11, 2008)

Canoeman said:


> Ambulances are prohibited from driving with lights and sirens to a BLS call.
> Call requiring lights and sirens TO the hospital must meet Unsatable or Critical criteria and require a written L&S screen when they do.


Do your providers have any discretion (perhaps required QA/QI for the call) for patients who don't meet the cook book?



> The best outcome - 96% < 1 minute out of chute / 8 min average time to call -- 60% save rate in our cardic arrests.



Please define a "cardiac arrest save?" Simple ROSC?


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## emtwacker710 (Mar 11, 2008)

mattulance said:


> Lights are tools just like anything else. The responsibility falls with the person behind the wheel to use them properly. Even in areas that do not have enough traffic to make them usefull while responding they can still be very usefull to protect you and your vehicle from traffic on scene.



thank-you, I agree, it all depends on the person behind the wheel, and they do add to scene safety..


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## Jon (Mar 11, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> There are several studies that have been performed that have demonstrated the individuals while going with l/s automatically/impulsively sped up the speed, as well as heart rate increased, respiratory rate increased (basically sympathetic overdrive).
> 
> Basically, the studies describe that we actually have to be taught and control ourselves to be more careful and to actually force ourselves to slow down.
> 
> ...


Rid... I see this, especially since I'm spending more and more time behind the wheel. I'll look at my speed and realize I'm WAY above the speed limit.
_
*The 3rd Rule of The House Of God:*
When arriving at a cardiac arrest, the first procedure is to take your own pulse._


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## Webster (Mar 12, 2008)

While I have a little blue rotor, I don't use it.  Here in PA, blue lights are a "courtesy light" aka a joke.  I don't even have it on my car.  I figure that if a call was THAT bad, I'd just use the 4-way flashers and the horn.


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## emtwacker710 (Mar 12, 2008)

Webster said:


> While I have a little blue rotor, I don't use it.  Here in PA, blue lights are a "courtesy light" aka a joke.  I don't even have it on my car.  I figure that if a call was THAT bad, I'd just use the 4-way flashers and the horn.



4 ways and horn are illegal in most states for going to calls..


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## Ridryder911 (Mar 12, 2008)

Ever wonder if speed was that essential why surgeons, physicians, etc. do not have them mounted on their Porsche's?

Really, who would not need them more than them? Yet, we do not see this .. wonder why? 









...hint: safety and professionalism

R/r 911


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## TgerFoxMark (Mar 12, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> Ever wonder if speed was that essential why surgeons, physicians, etc. do not have them mounted on their Porsche's?
> 
> Really, who would not need them more than them? Yet, we do not see this .. wonder why?
> 
> ...



The reason that they dont have L+S IS because its OUR job to take the PT. TO Them!

Just an opinion tho. EMS Is a Service Industry.


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## Ridryder911 (Mar 12, 2008)

TgerFoxMark said:


> The reason that they dont have L+S IS because its OUR job to take the PT. TO Them!
> 
> Just an opinion tho. EMS Is a Service Industry.



What does that have to do with that? Since *they* are the ultmost authority, and without them no surgery will occur, hence no definitive treatment. See my point? .... 

Point being, it is an ego issue. Even though, I would describe many surgeons having the biggest and over inflated ones, only some others would even compare... hmm maybe ones with l/s on their vehicles and carrying their own equipment. Amazing, you don't find very many ER Doc's that carry a jump kit, or surgeons that carry a portable surgical equipment (and they are definitely higher licensed and trained), yet we have those that will own an ambulance? C'mon.. do we not see a problem? 

R/r 911


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## Airway Junkie (Mar 12, 2008)

This topic has certainly been beaten to death and gone off topic more than once.


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## medic8613 (Mar 14, 2008)

I'm just curious to see what people think about lights on POVs. How many is too many? Is it OK for your car to look like a red and white Christmas tree moving at high speeds, or is the minimum safe number of lights the way to go?

Personally I'm a fan of 2 in the front and 1 in the back, as 360 degree lighting isn't necessary here for POVs. At first i had only 1 in the front, but decided that it wasn't enough during the day, and it would also suck to get rear ended on a scene, so 1 was put in back...OK fine, I had an amber light there to begin with, but we're not talking about amber lights.


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## JPINFV (Mar 14, 2008)

I'm a fan on the "factory standard" quanity of lights. The "factory standard" is the number and color of the lights when the car leaves the factory. Any more should be left to real emergency vehicles.


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## medic8613 (Mar 14, 2008)

JPINFV said:


> I'm a fan on the "factory standard" quanity of lights. The "factory standard" is the number and color of the lights when the car leaves the factory. Any more should be left to real emergency vehicles.



Thats fine and good unless people are expected to be able to respond to the station or scene in their personal vehicles.


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## Flight-LP (Mar 14, 2008)

medic8613 said:


> Personally I'm a fan of 2 in the front and 1 in the back, as 360 degree lighting isn't necessary here for POVs. .



360 degree visibility is necessary ANYWHERE a vehicle operates with emergency lighting. Its basic safety, why wouldn't you want to be as visible as possible?


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## emtwacker710 (Mar 14, 2008)

yea I agree with the 1st post here, 2 in the front and 1 in the back, like my vehicle moves traffic fine with grille lights and a dashlight in the front and I'm working on getting a rear warning light for when I first respond for the fire company...as for making your vehicle look like a rolling christmas tree....I'm a bit against that...as some cops in your area my be also..lol


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## KEVD18 (Mar 14, 2008)

i believe the perfect number of lights in a pov is 0


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## medic8613 (Mar 14, 2008)

Flight-LP said:


> 360 degree visibility is necessary ANYWHERE a vehicle operates with emergency lighting. Its basic safety, why wouldn't you want to be as visible as possible?


 
Here the definition of emergency lighting is red, white, or blue lights. Amber lights are not considered an emergency color. My 4 ways (blinkers) have been modified to flash in different patterns (much like backup lights on a police vehicle, but for non-EMS work)...I don't consider them emergency lights because they are amber. There are turn signal lights on the side of my car, so I guess I do have 360 lighting...just not red. If the rules were ever changed, my Jeep would then not fit the standards, and i would have to get some red lights to stick on the side of my car.


Now that I think about it, I should have put this in EMS humor...I wasn't going for a serious discussion on vehicle safety and proper vehicle lighting...just opinions on what is over the top...


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## medic8613 (Mar 14, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> i believe the perfect number of lights in a pov is 0



Why is this your opinion?

I think if someone has lights on their car because they are an EMT now, and they can, it is absurd and shouldn't be allowed. However, in many places statons aren't manned and it is policy for people to respond to the scene or station (whichever is closer) in their POVs. While it is not necessary to use lights every time, there are situations where it is absolutely necessary.


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## skyemt (Mar 14, 2008)

Oh My Gosh... Lights On Pov's... Again!

This Topic Has Been Beaten To Death Numerous Times...

Check The Threads For All The Info On Lights On Pov's You Will Need.


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## KEVD18 (Mar 14, 2008)

as has been said over and over again, the time you save responding to the scene/station isnt worth the risk you put yourself and the general public in. in a marked EV its different. its somewhat difficult to miss a heavy rescue, engine, ladder etc coming down the road. dont get me wrong, people still do. but these are the people that shouldnt be out in public without a helmet and a guide. now take your 1997 pos; throw a few galls specials onboard and go rocketing around. its not the same thing at all. plus its been proven that people dont drive the same with and without lights. faster speed, less awareness, rolling stops(if they make the effort at all) etc.

now, i will freely admit that when i first started i went all out. lights in every spot i could fit them, siren, radios and scanner. the whole nine. then, as i grew up, i started racheting it down to nothing. up until recently, i still had some of the gear in the truck, but it wasnt connected. then, when i had a free day and the motivation, out it all came. my truck is now back to factory. you may think of this as hypocritical and thats fine. i see whackerism as a rite of passage that everyone goes through. some people wise up and grow out of it, some never do.

a final note as food for thought: call your insurance company and ask them if your covered if you crash while responding to a call. chances are, they will tell you: "HELL NO. NOT IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM". then, do some research into the statistics(R/r posted a link in one of the 30 active topics about lights in pov's) regarding pov collisions. after reviewing that data and figuring out how much it could cost you, decide whether or not saving a minute in response time is worth it.


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## skyemt (Mar 14, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> as has been said over and over again, the time you save responding to the scene/station isnt worth the risk you put yourself and the general public in. in a marked EV its different. its somewhat difficult to miss a heavy rescue, engine, ladder etc coming down the road. dont get me wrong, people still do. but these are the people that shouldnt be out in public without a helmet and a guide. now take your 1997 pos; throw a few galls specials onboard and go rocketing around. its not the same thing at all. plus its been proven that people dont drive the same with and without lights. faster speed, less awareness, rolling stops(if they make the effort at all) etc.
> 
> now, i will freely admit that when i first started i went all out. lights in every spot i could fit them, siren, radios and scanner. the whole nine. then, as i grew up, i started racheting it down to nothing. up until recently, i still had some of the gear in the truck, but it wasnt connected. then, when i had a free day and the motivation, out it all came. my truck is now back to factory. you may think of this as hypocritical and thats fine. i see whackerism as a rite of passage that everyone goes through. some people wise up and grow out of it, some never do.
> 
> a final note as food for thought: call your insurance company and ask them if your covered if you crash while responding to a call. chances are, they will tell you: "HELL NO. NOT IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM". then, do some research into the statistics(R/r posted a link in one of the 30 active topics about lights in pov's) regarding pov collisions. after reviewing that data and figuring out how much it could cost you, decide whether or not saving a minute in response time is worth it.



actually, if you are in an accident, found to be speeding, you are covered by insurance. your rates may rise, but you are covered.

please show me something that says you are not covered if you have a light on your car... and if you are not speeding? still not covered?

there are many good arguments against green lights... your insurance line of thought is not.  apparently, you have not known anyone who has had to call.


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## medic8613 (Mar 14, 2008)

Driving an emergency vehicle with lights and/or sirens...well lights or lights and sirens changes the way a person drives regardless of the size, paintjob, and owner of the vehicle. A solution to the problem of people driving different with lights and sirens could be better EVOC. EVOC as it is most places is only somewhat effective, but more comprehensive training, and requirements on the state or federal level for comprehensive EVOC training would greatly reduce common driving errors, such as rolling lights, driving with excessive speeds, and being less aware of your surrounding. I don't think anyone should be allowed near any emergency vehicle without EVOC training...ever, and especially so with an unmarked POV with a few lights.


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## Pittsburgh Proud (Mar 16, 2008)

BossyCow said:


> I am able to have lights on my POV and I choose not to.  Yes its frustrating to be responding to a call behind that elderly gentleman driving his 1978 ford station wagon 35 mph down the 50mph highway. But, it gives me a chance to slow down, think about the call I'm responding to, take my own pulse and generally calm down the adrenalin response.
> 
> Countless studies have shown that our ability to sense time is impaired during emergencies.  So the time we save is generally an illusion.  It makes us feel better to be going fast!  It 'seems' much more efficient.  But it truly isn't.
> 
> Risk vs. gain.  Yes minutes count, but half a minute gain at the risk of danger/injury to ourselves or that little amish guy on the road ahead of us, isn't worth it.  We are simply trading one life for the other.



This was a good post. More should read this man's post and think about it. Very true.
Thank you Sir for saying so.


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## Flight-LP (Mar 16, 2008)

JPINFV said:


> Please define a "cardiac arrest save?" Simple ROSC?



Must be for ROSC, definately not the actual discharge percentage.............

I too am interested in clarification of this bold statement...............


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## Outbac1 (Mar 16, 2008)

I'd like to know what the "SAVE" critera is as well. I've seen a lot of pulses come back only to dissappear on the way out to the truck or enroute to the hospital.


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## emt666 (Mar 16, 2008)

i wont use my lights for a fire call but i do for ems and even then  not all the time depends on the severity of the call  also in my full time job i have had firepersonal use their lights to get around me only to see them pull into the gas station/bar/or their own driveway :excl::excl::excl:


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## JPINFV (Mar 16, 2008)

emt666, why do you hate periods?


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## emtwacker710 (Mar 17, 2008)

skyemt said:


> Oh My Gosh... Lights On Pov's... Again!
> 
> This Topic Has Been Beaten To Death Numerous Times...
> 
> Check The Threads For All The Info On Lights On Pov's You Will Need.



yea..good point..there are quite a few threads that mention POV's and lights together in the title


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## Flight-LP (Mar 17, 2008)

skyemt said:


> actually, if you are in an accident, found to be speeding, you are covered by insurance. your rates may rise, but you are covered.
> 
> please show me something that says you are not covered if you have a light on your car... and if you are not speeding? still not covered?
> 
> there are many good arguments against green lights... your insurance line of thought is not.  apparently, you have not known anyone who has had to call.



Well, I'll tell you for a fact that Allstate will NOT cover you unless you have a specific rider stipulating your emergency response utilization (i.e. commercial or emergency vehicle). Geico, State Farm, and Farmers also require notification, but will provide coverage with or with the rider (depends on the region). Again, your insurance company MUST know what you are doing and you more than likely will pay a higher rate, however as you assume the increased and usually unnecessary risk, you get to pay for it. Want to lose your coverage quickly, then don't tell them and go out in your whacker-mobile and wreck going to the BS grass fire or 4 y/o with a runny nose. If you have Allstate, your pi#@ out of luck, and the rest will more than likely drop you like a heart attack. 

An interesting question though, why, if there is soooooo much of a need for the lights, are your respective departments not providing you with the appropriate insurance coverage? Some of you say your department requires it, then make them pay for it!

Can't wait to hear the excuses on this one....................


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## Ridryder911 (Mar 17, 2008)

skyemt said:


> actually, if you are in an accident, found to be speeding, you are covered by insurance. your rates may rise, but you are covered.




Sorry sky, but that is NOT always true. Many insurance carriers such as Allstate, State Farm, etc. may have clauses that exempt the moment an emergency light is demonstrated on a private vehicle, it then becomes an "official vehicle" representing another company...i.e. you have a light and siren it is now representing the fire service, not your own. 

The same if they find out you drive your vehicle for your company instead of personal business, they can drop your claims, and possible pursue insurance fraudulent representation (you did not give full representation or mislead the company). 

One should to be sure to inform your representative that you respond in emergency status. The reason there is volunteer fire insurance, because so many DO NOT insure you with l/s. 

R/r 911


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## BossyCow (Mar 17, 2008)

Pittsburgh Proud said:


> This was a good post. More should read this man's post and think about it. Very true.
> Thank you Sir for saying so.



Not a sir, its BossyCow, not BossyBull.


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## TgerFoxMark (Mar 17, 2008)

emt666 said:


> i wont use my lights for a fire call but i do for ems and even then  not all the time depends on the severity of the call  also in my full time job i have had firepersonal use their lights to get around me only to see them pull into the gas station/bar/or their own driveway :excl::excl::excl:



Agreed, While i may have enough gear on my truck to be insane, I dont always use it. But if i get a Pediatric, Not Breathing call... I damn well will use them. Not everyone who has the gear misuses it. It seems to me that a few bad apples, are spoiling the whole batch. My lightbar... Is more often turned on if im on the side of the road helping someone, or blocking traffic for the accident down the road. not while in motion.  
However, i have different lenses for my bar, and i WILL use my amber lenses if im towing a vehicle or an unstable load. Besides, even if i do run Code3 to somewhere in my works rig, these drivers dont even yield to it! 
Seems like the only thing they think that they have to pull to the right for is Red/Blue. 
For running L+S to be effective we need to educate the public.


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## Ridryder911 (Mar 17, 2008)

TgerFoxMark said:


> However, i have different lenses for my bar, and i WILL use my amber lenses if im towing a vehicle or an unstable load. Besides, even if i do run Code3 to somewhere in my works rig, these drivers dont even yield to it!
> Seems like the only thing they think that they have to pull to the right for is Red/Blue.
> For running L+S to be effective we need to educate the public.



I am confused, is this "rig" a tow truck? I would not pull over either. Sorry, my state as most define emergency vehicle lighting as either red or blue type flashing lights, other wise similar to the rural mail carriers and I don't pull for them either. 

R/r 911


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## skyemt (Mar 17, 2008)

TgerFoxMark said:


> Agreed, While i may have enough gear on my truck to be insane, I dont always use it. But if i get a Pediatric, Not Breathing call... I damn well will use them. Not everyone who has the gear misuses it. It seems to me that a few bad apples, are spoiling the whole batch. My lightbar... Is more often turned on if im on the side of the road helping someone, or blocking traffic for the accident down the road. not while in motion.
> However, i have different lenses for my bar, and i WILL use my amber lenses if im towing a vehicle or an unstable load. Besides, even if i do run Code3 to somewhere in my works rig, these drivers dont even yield to it!
> Seems like the only thing they think that they have to pull to the right for is Red/Blue.
> For running L+S to be effective we need to educate the public.




responding to an EMS call with amber lights?? towing an unstable load??

what the heck are you talking about???!!!???


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## TgerFoxMark (Mar 17, 2008)

nono, I change the lenses on my POV. I dont leave my duty lights on if im not on call


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## TgerFoxMark (Mar 17, 2008)

r/r, its a POV. Dodge 4x4. If one of my friends vehicles breaks down, i put in the ambers, and haul it to somewhere we can fix it. Sorry my post was a bit disjointed. lack of sleep this time. I was making 2 seperate comments, they ran together.


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## rescuepoppy (Mar 17, 2008)

*Using Lights For Non Emergency Use*

Since this thread started about using lights for other than emergencies I am not getting into the have or have not debate. My thoughts are if you are going to have them and some always will as long as they are legal,then at least take the time to turn your brain on before you turn the lights on. In our squad I can say that if you are known to use lights for anything other than an emergency then you will no longer need them due to the fact that you are automatically dismissed. We have had that happen a few times. The last was a young guy who used the excuse that he was in a hurry to get to the batroom that does not meet my criteria for use of lights. When called in to explain him self he asked how we found out, we told him that a citizen from scanner land spotted him and had heard no call go out. So remember somebody is always watching and is more than willing to turn you in if they think you have screwed up, so lets try to set a good example at all times.


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## JPINFV (Mar 17, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> I am confused, is this "rig" a tow truck? I would not pull over either. Sorry, my state as most define emergency vehicle lighting as either red or blue type flashing lights, other wise similar to the rural mail carriers and I don't pull for them either.
> 
> R/r 911



It sounds as if he uses his truck for multiple uses, including everyday use and work use, as well as responses. As such, his lights either has both amber and response colored lights, or the colors are interchangeable. As such, when his vehicle is a danger to other cars on the road (i.e. towing unstable cargo), he uses his amber lights as a general "warning," akin to a normal car hazard lights or hazardous/oversized load escort vehicle lights.


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## skyemt (Mar 17, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> Sorry sky, but that is NOT always true. Many insurance carriers such as Allstate, State Farm, etc. may have clauses that exempt the moment an emergency light is demonstrated on a private vehicle, it then becomes an "official vehicle" representing another company...i.e. you have a light and siren it is now representing the fire service, not your own.
> 
> The same if they find out you drive your vehicle for your company instead of personal business, they can drop your claims, and possible pursue insurance fraudulent representation (you did not give full representation or mislead the company).
> 
> ...



well, i can not speak about all insurance carriers... however i did check with mine... as a volunteer with a "courtesy" light, i am required to abide by all traffic laws, and other drivers are under no obligation to pull over... responding as a private citizen asking for "courtesy" only, and as such insurance is NOT affected.

however, i'm sure that the use of red lights, or sirens probably changes that situation.


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## TgerFoxMark (Mar 17, 2008)

rescuepoppy said:


> Since this thread started about using lights for other than emergencies I am not getting into the have or have not debate. My thoughts are if you are going to have them and some always will as long as they are legal,then at least take the time to turn your brain on before you turn the lights on. In our squad I can say that if you are known to use lights for anything other than an emergency then you will no longer need them due to the fact that you are automatically dismissed. We have had that happen a few times. The last was a young guy who used the excuse that he was in a hurry to get to the batroom that does not meet my criteria for use of lights. When called in to explain him self he asked how we found out, we told him that a citizen from scanner land spotted him and had heard no call go out. So remember somebody is always watching and is more than willing to turn you in if they think you have screwed up, so lets try to set a good example at all times.


And Scannerland is why i change my lenses on my POV. if im doing something else! plus it keeps respect for my colors.
~Tger


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## Outbac1 (Mar 19, 2008)

"... about lights on POVs. How many is too many? " 

   I believe "One"  is too many.


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## wolfwyndd (Mar 20, 2008)

> Sorry sky, but that is NOT always true. Many insurance carriers such as Allstate, State Farm, etc. may have clauses that exempt the moment an emergency light is demonstrated on a private vehicle, it then becomes an "official vehicle" representing another company...i.e. you have a light and siren it is now representing the fire service, not your own.


I can't speak about Allstate, but that was one of the questions I had for my State Farm agent before I signed my policy with them.  IE, if I'm in an accident while going to a call with L/S.  He said he inquired for me and said, basically, as long as I'm driving with 'due regard' for public safety that I'm covered.


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## Ridryder911 (Mar 20, 2008)

Be sure to read the fine print. I would not base my insurance coverage upon just what the agent stated. Most agents are not aware of the exclusions and exemptions. 

I was a D.O.N. of a home care agency and most of employees insurance agents assured them that "they were covered" as well using their vehicles to make house calls. That was until one had an accident, and we quickly found out if one was using their vehicle in a manner than pleasure (normal/pleasure) that one would have to increase or change their policy. 

This is why my state attorney general  has ruled that p.o.v.'s are not allowed to have l/s in my state due to most national insurance carriers will not insure them under as private citizen. Yes, volunteer firefighters insurance will but again a separate insurance carrier. Again, many states require the company (city/community) to authorize the vehicle under their insurance policy while responding with l/s and be responsible for any occurrences. 

R/r 911


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## JPINFV (Mar 20, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> I was a D.O.N.



Does this mean that we all get to ask for a request on the day of your daughter's wedding? 

/Not that type of Don?


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## SwissEMT (Mar 20, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> i believe the perfect number of lights in a pov is 0



lol



Sorry.


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## KEVD18 (Mar 20, 2008)

SwissEMT said:


> lol
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry.



now vahey, is that sarcasm? im guessing thats a tongue-in-cheek response because your one of the only people on this board that saw my truck when it still had the lights in it. well if you read my previous posts in the thread, for quite some time towards the end of my trucks' "whacker days", i never used that gear. and its been gone for quite some time.

in other news, how are things with you? i talk to a few of the folks form class now and again but havent heard from or about you. better yet, lets have this convo offline. feel free to pm me..


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## paramedix (Mar 21, 2008)

If you use your car for emergency call outs...mmm!? I wouldn't do that.

Out here if your insurance finds out you used your vehicle as a "high risk beacon" they would not pay if something happens to your vehicle on a scene of an accident.


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## fortsmithman (Mar 21, 2008)

In the Northwest Territories off duty firefighters and EMS are not authorized to use emergency lights and siren in privately owned vehicles.  The emergency lights and sirens stay on the department vehicles.


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## ErinCooley (Mar 23, 2008)

*Excuse the ignorance... lights on personal vehicles??*

What is the point?  I don't know of a single person with lights on their personal vehicles in this whole county (there are 8 911 trucks, 5 non-911 trucks that do mostly transfers)... so thats at least 26 EMTs per day times 3 days..  you get my point.

Is it a regional thing maybe?  Or is my county full of slack-asses?


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## TheAfterAffect (Mar 23, 2008)

ErinCooley said:


> What is the point?  I don't know of a single person with lights on their personal vehicles in this whole county (there are 8 911 trucks, 5 non-911 trucks that do mostly transfers)... so thats at least 26 EMTs per day times 3 days..  you get my point.
> 
> Is it a regional thing maybe?  Or is my county full of slack-asses?



>_>


All im going to say is this topic is beat dead. Do a quick search for all the other categories that have been brought up over this. We have Whackers here, We have Anti-Whackers, We have people in the middle. Just don't bother with the ethics of it (Regarding to "What is the point")

As for a Regional Thing, its more a State by State issue.


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## MSDeltaFlt (Mar 23, 2008)

Your county is not full of slack-asses.  Depending on the vollie services, some will issue one red rotator light and a siren along with a voice pager.  That's the way it is in my county.  Some just want more, and they invest in it.


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## skyemt (Mar 23, 2008)

please.... please... please...

not this thread again...

what is it... the person with the short straw has to bring it up again???

is there a single topic more beaten to death?


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## Grady_emt (Mar 23, 2008)

skyemt said:


> is there a single topic more beaten to death?




...Vollie vs Paid...


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## JPINFV (Mar 23, 2008)

skyemt said:


> is there a single topic more beaten to death?



People justifying 110 hours being enough to provide patient care?


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## ErinCooley (Mar 23, 2008)

I didnt realize this was a hot-button topic.


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## JPINFV (Mar 23, 2008)

Well, essentially there are two classses of people. People who invest their money so that their car is a rolling disco lamp (search for "POV lights" on you tube. Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVMtjOhvnUM&feature=related) and people who invest their money in education. Now, I ask you, would you rather have someone showing up to care for you with a pimped out car, or someone with more that 110 hours of night class spread out over 3 months? 

For example, the car in that youtube video spent around $1600 for the lights using what he stated in his description and looking at the video (2 dual talons, one front, one back, and 2 sets of grill lights). That's over half of what it cost me for a quarter tuition (University of California, Irvine was on the quarter system). That's more money than one of the paramedic programs near where I grew up (Saddleback community college, ~$1000 for the course) or worth 80 college credits at another community college (Orange Coast College). Basically, if he spent his money wisely he wouldn't have to be worrying about responding in his POV.


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## skyemt (Mar 23, 2008)

Grady_emt said:


> ...Vollie vs Paid...





JPINFV said:


> People justifying 110 hours being enough to provide patient care?



ok... perhaps it is a three way tie...


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## el Murpharino (Mar 23, 2008)

JPINFV said:


> Well, essentially there are two classses of people. People who invest their money so that their car is a rolling disco lamp (search for "POV lights" on you tube. Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVMtjOhvnUM&feature=related) and people who invest their money in education. Now, I ask you, would you rather have someone showing up to care for you with a pimped out car, or someone with more that 110 hours of night class spread out over 3 months?
> 
> For example, the car in that youtube video spent around $1600 for the lights using what he stated in his description and looking at the video (2 dual talons, one front, one back, and 2 sets of grill lights). That's over half of what it cost me for a quarter tuition (University of California, Irvine was on the quarter system). That's more money than one of the paramedic programs near where I grew up (Saddleback community college, ~$1000 for the course) or worth 80 college credits at another community college (Orange Coast College). Basically, if he spent his money wisely he wouldn't have to be worrying about responding in his POV.



The funniest part is all the wackers saying "Nice Setup", and "WOW, great lights".  Even one guy mentioned people being hurt by vehicles with inadequate lighting...oh the irony.


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## MedicPrincess (Mar 23, 2008)

Okay Y'all....In the last 3 weeks there have been 3 seperate threads started on this topic.  And in the last 3 weeks this poor horse has been beat to death, buried....dug up got his tail whooped again.

I merged the 3 threads.

PLEASE!!! For the love of all that is EMS.....lets not start a new thread on lights on POV's!!  Use this one.....and keep in mind....horses don't have 9 lives....cats do!!


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## fortsmithman (Mar 29, 2008)

Here in the Northwest Territories emergency lights in Privately owned Vehicles are prohibited.  Not only off duty EMS but off duty fire and police are also prohibited from having emergency light in their vehicles.  Only in department owned vehicles are allowed emergency lights under our Motor Vehicles act.


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## AZFF/EMT (Mar 29, 2008)

1. 1 light is too many.


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## fortsmithman (Mar 29, 2008)

fortsmithman said:


> Here in the Northwest Territories emergency lights in Privately owned Vehicles are prohibited.  Not only off duty EMS but off duty fire and police are also prohibited from having emergency light in their vehicles.  Only in department owned vehicles are allowed emergency lights under our Motor Vehicles act.



I forgot to put off duty before police.  Also I forgot to put privately owned vehcle


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## CFRBryan347768 (Mar 29, 2008)

*I*



Ridryder911 said:


> Thus # 1005 reason not to have vollies with emergency lights. No reason too... leave the lights and sirens on the emergency units.
> 
> R/r 911



I completely agree, i do indeed have lights for responding to ff, but i only use them in the early hours of the day 12-5am usually because no one is on the road, i would rather sit at a light and make the second rig than be the one to cause another accident.


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## wolfwyndd (Mar 30, 2008)

> Leave the lights and sirens on the emergency units.


I wholeheartedly agree.  We certainly don't want NON professionals driving around with lights and sirens.  Oh, but wait, we don't have non - professionals doing that anyway.  

Let's see. My definition of an 'emergency unit' is a motor vehicle with lights and sirens driven by a public safety professional (fire, police, ems, take your pick).  So what happens when you put lights and sirens on a POV?  It suddenly becomes a motor vehicle with lights and sirens driven by a public safety professional (fire, police, ems).  Sounds like an 'emergency unit' to me.  The only difference is who's name is on the title.  That's it.


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## skyemt (Mar 30, 2008)

wolfwyndd said:


> I wholeheartedly agree.  We certainly don't want NON professionals driving around with lights and sirens.  Oh, but wait, we don't have non - professionals doing that anyway.
> 
> Let's see. My definition of an 'emergency unit' is a motor vehicle with lights and sirens driven by a public safety professional (fire, police, ems, take your pick).  So what happens when you put lights and sirens on a POV?  It suddenly becomes a motor vehicle with lights and sirens driven by a public safety professional (fire, police, ems).  Sounds like an 'emergency unit' to me.  The only difference is who's name is on the title.  That's it.



i mean... come on... you can't really believe that nonsense!!

i have a green light on my POV... as the days go by, i wonder why i even have it...

i most certainly DO NOT think of myself as an "Emergency Vehicle"...

it is, however, an entertaining thought... if i put a light on my bicycle, do i then become an "Emergency Vehicle", ridden by a Professional??

look out, cars... here i come in 10th gear!!


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## wolfwyndd (Mar 31, 2008)

skyemt said:


> it is, however, an entertaining thought... if i put a light on my bicycle, do i then become an "Emergency Vehicle", ridden by a Professional??


Why yes, actually, you do.  As long as your jurisdiction has some kind of vehicle check for bicycles.  

Clearly you've never lived in a large metropolitan area.  I used to live in Baltimore, MD and worked in Washington, DC and both Baltimore AND DC had bicycle cops and yes, they did have little lights on the bicycles.  I don't recall them having sirens, but they did have lights.  And for 'special events' like parades and festivals, they also had fire / ems / police on bicycles, 4 wheel ATV's, and they had a couple of those John Deere type tractors where you could put a patient on a backboard too that had lights and sirens on them.  

Seriously.  It all depends on what the 'powers that be' in your specific jurisdiction say is ok.  If you're jurisdiction says you can put lights on a POV, go ahead.  If your jurisdiction says no, you can't, then don't.  I've lived in both types of jurisdictions and so far I think the decisions have been sound.


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## Arkymedic (Mar 31, 2008)

skyemt said:


> please.... please... please...
> 
> not this thread again...
> 
> ...


 
The length and style of paramedic programs.


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## Meursault (Apr 1, 2008)

Arkymedic said:


> The length and style of paramedic programs.



That can't compare to the real winners for these forums:

Volly EMS
EMT-B educational standards
Spelling and grammar (and yet no one learns...)
I'm 12 and want to be a FF/Medic/action hero. What can I do?
OMG NREMT TOMORROW!!!!
OMG PASSED NREMT!!!!
Passed NREMT two weeks ago, need job.

So much time and typing would be saved if there was a sticky for each of these in the appropriate threads. Of course, that time would then be spent locking threads that don't comply.


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## JPINFV (Apr 1, 2008)

MrConspiracy said:


> Spelling and grammar (and yet no one learns...)



TISNF.

/bff Jill?


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## Arkymedic (Apr 1, 2008)

skyemt said:


> please.... please... please...
> 
> not this thread again...
> 
> ...


 
oh oh oh!!! what about fire medics vs ems medics and then there is private vs government too...


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## Arkymedic (Apr 1, 2008)

MrConspiracy said:


> That can't compare to the real winners for these forums:
> 
> Volly EMS
> EMT-B educational standards
> ...


 
LMFAO Thank you MrConspiracy this made my day.


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## TgerFoxMark (Apr 5, 2008)

I have to agree...  But the last 3 got me rolling.
Thanks for brightening my day.


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## Arkymedic (Apr 5, 2008)

MedicPrincess said:


> Okay Y'all....In the last 3 weeks there have been 3 seperate threads started on this topic. And in the last 3 weeks this poor horse has been beat to death, buried....dug up got his tail whooped again.
> 
> I merged the 3 threads.
> 
> PLEASE!!! For the love of all that is EMS.....lets not start a new thread on lights on POV's!! Use this one.....and keep in mind....horses don't have 9 lives....cats do!!


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## JPINFV (Apr 5, 2008)

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TwDt...7nGFtSe74!5sVUE*1!vg/beating-a-dead-horse.gif

The world needs more glue.


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## CFRBryan347768 (May 11, 2008)

i just bought a massive i mean MASsive amount of lights for my Wrangler, but i have absolutely no intent of using them cause their going on my "show" vehicle.


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## seanm028 (May 11, 2008)

CFRBryan347768 said:


> i just bought a massive i mean MASsive amount of lights for my Wrangler, but i have absolutely no intent of using them cause their going on my "show" vehicle.



"Show" vehicle?  What is that?


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## CFRBryan347768 (May 11, 2008)

my vehicle that i put on display when all the car junkies round up


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## daedalus (May 11, 2008)

medic001918 said:


> If you're one of the ones who uses the lights responsibly, then you're probably not really saving much (if any) time in your response while taking an extra risk and liability.  Leave emergency lights for emergency vehicles during emergency response.  Otherwise, you can only go with the flow of traffic anyway.
> 
> Shane
> NREMT-P


depends on where you live. i have seen Mercy Air lunch birds to bring a patient to a hospital 6 miles away. Thats LA County for you. Without lights and sirens, you will not get by LA drivers to your accident. Hell, every time I run code in LA county, I get the finger atleast once. People out here will NOT move for you with out lights, even to change lanes. Code 3 is a necessary evil out here.


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## firemedic7982 (May 13, 2008)

*Here we go.*

... I guess Im just in a bad mood today. 

To those of you who are doing the whole "not this thread again, and the whole use the search feature" ... Shut IT!  New people bring new perspectives to the table. If you are so tired of reading the same type of conversation... THEN STOP READING IT. There is no reason to be condescending. And if you are that tired of reading the same questions... then Im sure there are at least two people out there that are tired of reading your endless banter. Your opinion is no more important than the next guys. 


#2 - To the people on this site who think that there answers are a concrete absolute for all services, all situations, and all scenarious ... You my friend are the biggest "water head" of them all. It's time for you to hang it up. I mean after all you know everything there is to know. 


I have lights on my POV. I live in a VERY heavilly populated area. I am a FT paid medic. I am part of our first responder program. Don't knock the Vollies folks. They love the job more than you do. Someone mentioned in this post a page or so back that it doesnt matter whether you go pov to the scene because you have no equipment to do anything. Thats not the case. I carry a Full size Jump Bag , with an integrated Airway bag, a D cylinder, and a Top o Line Zoll AED with 12 lead ECG interface. The ALS first responders Carry The same equip PLUS A complete set of 1st and 2nd round drugs, IV setups, etc. Our Sups that have jump bags in their POV's carry all that PLUS RSI capability. Now tell me that a First responder isnt capable of helping PTA of the Ambulance.  

The debate over Lights on POVS is an old, but ongoing one. You could argue it either way. But first responders CAN and DO make a difference.


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## MtJerry (May 13, 2008)

firemedic7982 said:


> The debate over Lights on POVS is an old, but ongoing one. You could argue it either way. But first responders CAN and DO make a difference.



Well said ... I have said for some time now, "It ain't the lights in the grill, nor the labels on the hood, it's the brain in the cranium that make the difference."


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## JPINFV (May 13, 2008)

All the brains in the cranium mean nothing, though, if they're delayed because they're involved in an automobile accident.


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## TgerFoxMark (May 15, 2008)

*begin rant.*



JPINFV said:


> All the brains in the cranium mean nothing, though, if they're delayed because they're involved in an automobile accident.



well, the ones with the brains wont wreck, because they FOLLOW THE RULES.
stopping and looking before light running.
not being a daredevil... 
YOU know the same rules we are SUPPOSED to use, even in department rigs?
and if you look at youtube... all of the wrecks POV/Dpt rig, involve SOMEONE not following them?
A POV with lights (/siren) can be operated safely, but still get you through the 3 miles of traffic snarl caused by the wreck.

And yes, a POV with lights, but nothing inside is WORTHLESS.
but one that has equipment, even basic gear, can play a MAJOR role.

Lights are beaten to death. lets try a new direction. BRAINS. if you do not have one, get out of the service. you are a liability. but if you have one and USE IT, you are an asset.

End Rant.


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## NJWhacker (May 15, 2008)

can anyone find an actual article of someone involved in an MVA because of the POV lights? I keep seeing this brought up as an argument but yet to see any proof. 

Im also begining to see that the jaded paid professionals just like to hear them selves cry and whine about how this is wrong, and that is wrong, and Vollies this and EMT-Bs that. We are all in this for the same reason, why is that so hard to remember?? So do it for the paycheck too while others do it just for the networking of meeting new people and helping out the town they live in. Enough with the pissin contest of I went to a longer school or Ive got these many letters after my name. We all start from the bottom and alot of the attitudes keep people from wanting to go any further up the EMS ladder.


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## ffemt8978 (May 15, 2008)

NJWhacker said:


> can anyone find an actual article of someone involved in an MVA because of the POV lights? I keep seeing this brought up as an argument but yet to see any proof.
> 
> Im also begining to see that the jaded paid professionals just like to hear them selves cry and whine about how this is wrong, and that is wrong, and Vollies this and EMT-Bs that. We are all in this for the same reason, why is that so hard to remember?? So do it for the paycheck too while others do it just for the networking of meeting new people and helping out the town they live in. Enough with the pissin contest of I went to a longer school or Ive got these many letters after my name. We all start from the bottom and alot of the attitudes keep people from wanting to go any further up the EMS ladder.



While not involving lights in a POV, this thread is related.
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=6297


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## MtJerry (May 15, 2008)

Thank you for the article, but may I ask the question, how is that situation any different than an ambulance accident caused by a Medic/EMT who was hung over from the night before, or sleepy from a long shift?

I think it's worth noting that approximately 75% of the fire protection in this country is covered by volunteer fire departments.  I have no proof, but I wish someone would do a study comparing the number of accidents by volunteers vs. paid fire departments.  I would venture to guess that they are higher in paid departments.

I think it's irresponsible to assume that just because someone has light on their POV or carries medical gear in their vehicle they are not a responsible person, or a valuable part of the Fire/EMS system in this country.

An ambulance or a fire truck his nothing more than a vehicle with a driver who is a person just like you and I.  The vehicle is not issue, it's the person, their attitude and their ability to make sound decisions.  The young man in the article posted above is no different than the Medic/EMT/Firefighter who steals drugs from the company they work for, or the policeman who takes his SWAT firearms into Hooters to show off to the ladies.

We all have a brain.  If you can't use it, you do not belong in the profession.  This job is not for everyone.

I am a volunteer firefighter and a volunteer EMT in the county where I live in Montana.  I serve my community because I care about my community, not the paycheck.  I own my own business that brings in nearly a half a million dollars a year.  I don't do my volunteer service for the glory or the recognition.  I do it because I want to be a valuable part of my rural community.  

I work in a rural area outside a sizable city in Montana and I can relate MANY stories where I have taken my personal vehicle into places where ambulances couldn't go because of road conditions or weather and had to use my POV to bring the patient to the ambulance.

There is a place for lights on POV.  It may not work in your community or department, but they have a place.

Trashing those who have them, and use them responsibly, is an affront to those who are our brothers and sisters in the service.


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## JPINFV (May 16, 2008)

NJWhacker said:


> can anyone find an actual article of someone involved in an MVA because of the POV lights? I keep seeing this brought up as an argument but yet to see any proof.


Considering that there's also a psychological aspect to any use of emergency lights:
http://firefightingnews.com/article-us.cfm?articleID=45123
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/reports/face200330.html
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/reports/face9944.html


> Im also begining to see that the jaded paid professionals just like to hear them selves cry and whine about how this is wrong, and that is wrong, and Vollies this and EMT-Bs that. We are all in this for the same reason, why is that so hard to remember?? So do it for the paycheck too while others do it just for the networking of meeting new people and helping out the town they live in. Enough with the pissin contest of I went to a longer school or Ive got these many letters after my name. We all start from the bottom and alot of the attitudes keep people from wanting to go any further up the EMS ladder.



Does your community not deserve full time paramedic level care?


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## JPINFV (May 16, 2008)

MtJerry said:


> I think it's worth noting that approximately 75% of the fire protection in this country is covered by volunteer fire departments.  I have no proof, but I wish someone would do a study comparing the number of accidents by volunteers vs. paid fire departments.  I would venture to guess that they are higher in paid departments.


Want to compare traffic density and call volume between, say, Southern California and Rural Montana? I'm going to be willing to go out on a limb and say that areas with more traffic and areas with more calls are going to have more accidents because there's simply a higher chance of being involved in an accident. Using drivers of equal skill, the one in the city would probably have a higher chance of being in an accident on each response. Tie that into a greater number of responses and you have more accidents. Thus, to really compare paid v volunteer, care would have to be taken to accurately control for the confounding variables of traffic density and number of responses. Essentially any straight up accident v accident comparison would be comparing apples to oranges. 


> I think it's irresponsible to assume that just because someone has light on their POV or carries medical gear in their vehicle they are not a responsible person, or a valuable part of the Fire/EMS system in this country.


I don't think it's that big of a leap to make that judgement on someone who is willing to "invest" thousands of dollars into their car, but not thousands of dollars into furthering their education. I also don't consider it that big of a leap to say that most providers that have flashy lights on their POV are working under a 110hr training cert (NHTSA standard, you can 'guess' the level). Anyone who thinks that 110 hours is enough time to accurately learn to provide emergency medical care is fooling themselves and a danger to their patients. 



> We all have a brain.  If you can't use it, you do not belong in the profession.  This job is not for everyone.


While I completely agree with this statement, you've just removed a rather large amount of providers from the field. The pool does need a healthy dose of chlorine though.


> Trashing those who have them, and use them responsibly, is an affront to those who are our brothers and sisters in the service.



Brothers and sisters? EMS is about providing emergency medical care in the prehosptial environment. It is not a social club.


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## TgerFoxMark (May 16, 2008)

I think the entire gene pool needs to be shocked. Its kinda a murky green brown clody color. 
back to the topic at hand, i think that all of us in EMS have one strong tie to each other. -B, -I, -P, CFR/ ect. We all "hopefully!" got into EMS to help our communities. (def. not for the money here) 
And i know that FF's get a bad rap here, but they see all in their profession as their brothers and sisters. I see no reason we should not feel the same.
As I feel, EMS is a Family.  (for someone who grew up without one, that means alot)
volly or paid, doesnt matter. we all do the best we can with what we have.
In my case, with my Lights, they are on a 4x4. Its lifted, and yes its a truck.
my volly group has no free cash to afford something to get into some of the rougher areas around here. so we use vehicles like mine to get the pt. to an ambulance.
And, yes, i am the "wackjob" who owns an old ambulance that he kitted out to be a first aid stand for events. Its controlled by the volly squad EMT's and Medics when in use, and doesnt take our main rig out of service for an event. thus protecting the greatest amount of our area. 
Yes, I live Close to Indianapolis. Public and private services run there. WE STILL use volenteers In the big city if we have no choice. 
With Events like the 500, you cannot find enough people to staff that nightmare on the paid services.

There is a place for everyone, volly or paid, in our family.


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## aussieemt1980 (May 26, 2008)

scottmcleod said:


> Let's lighten this up by laughing at some POV's that people have posted on Ye Olde Noob-Tube...
> 
> EDIT: I apologise if any of these are actual dept. units, I just grabbed whichever ones looked most likely to be daily drivers / daily over-compensators... (oops, did I say that out loud? *cough*STUPIDHUGEPICKUP*cough*).
> 
> ...



Some of these are a bit too much, but would look great on an operational truck....


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## aussieemt1980 (May 26, 2008)

I am going to add my 10 cents worth, having once been a fire vollie and a rescue vollie...

In Australia, no one is permitted to fit l/s to their own private vehicles. Period. No ifs, buts and what ifs.

Government emergency services vehicles, yes.
Private emergency services require authority from the relevant government department (such as where I work), and even then, l/s are used under extreme circumstances.

As a fire/rescue vollie, I did not find not having lights and sirens got me to the shed any quicker. I still got the call in the rescue / fire truck at the same time as everyone else: - I was in the truck.

A point of interest, I discussed this with my partner the other day, and he told me of a story where 2 trucks responded to one call, the first truck sped off down the road, l/s blazing, he went in the 2nd truck, no sirens and still got to the scene before the first truck.

It appears that some people get a certain physiological effect from driving a truck with lights and sirens. I know I used to, who wouldn't?

There was a rumour that the local volunteer rural fire service were going to allow their volunteers to use red/blue lights in private vehicles, but it was just that, a rumour, and a volunteer who did so not only got into s**t from his service, but also had words with the local police station about it.

If everyone has l/s on their private vehicles, who is going to take notice in a real emergency, especially if everyone used them for going to the shops?

I do have a red rotator in the car, that is magnetic mount and plugs into the lighter socket in the car, but it is only used if the car is stopped on the road assisting at a car accident when I am first on scene. Otherwise, hazards do the job nicely.

I don't see the need to fit l/s to private vehicles, I firmly believe it is there to overinflate an ego to compensate for other short comings, but if they agency allows it, there must be an identified need.


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## mikeylikesit (May 27, 2008)

seven, seven lights is too many. try and keep it under that magical number and your good. but i really don't think anyone except the emergency vehicles should have lights. if you run a red in your POV and then your buddy behind you follows guess how many patients you have now?


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## Ridryder911 (May 27, 2008)

Use your cranium or what is supposed to be in it. Do a little math ( I know that is a bad word for most medics) and you will see, you do not save more tan a few minutes at the most. If you doubled your speed, (in which you should not) then you will only save half the time, now increasing will only increase a few seconds per mile... Sorry, if they are that screwed up, then a extra few minutes is not going to save them. Real world.. 

Want evidence about POV, check out volunteer firefighter insurance web site. The problem is they are not usually marked/classified as an emergency vehicle so tracking is hard. 

Thank goodness, my state does not allow POV with l/s. Public John Q. has enough problems yeilding for 5 ton EMS units with several LED and dual sirens, you think they will honor or see you in a POV? 

R/r 911


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## thowle (May 27, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> Yes, it would be a shame to judge all by a few... if that was the case, but I feel it is a rarity instead of the opposite (check out VFI web-site). Realistically how much time is really saved if you really cannot speed or are supposed to obey local laws?
> 
> Sorry, excessive speed and those that do not want to abide by the rules ruins it for all... just like in the professional world.
> 
> R/r 911



None; When I first got into it I used to be all about the lights; that wore off pretty quick.  The past few times (been a while) that I responded even in an apparatus to a medical call and/or fire, I ran code 1 with no lights or siren... and I'm pretty much 100% sure I made it on-scene quicker than if I had been runing code 3.


Lights are good on the apparatus  There isn't really a need for them in POV, all they do is cause problems by temptation; but sometimes it just takes time for everyone to realize that.


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## KEVD18 (May 27, 2008)

thowle said:


> None; When I first got into it I used to be all about the lights; that wore off pretty quick.  The past few times (been a while) that I responded even in an apparatus to a medical call and/or fire, I ran code 1 with no lights or siren... and I'm pretty much 100% sure I made it on-scene quicker than if I had been runing code 3.
> 
> 
> Lights are good on the apparatus  There isn't really a need for them in POV, all they do is cause problems by temptation; but sometimes it just takes time for everyone to realize that.




while i completly agree with the no lights on pov's angle, if you take the same route from station to scene dark and quiet v. lights and sirens, how could no lights get you there faster? maybe at the same time sure, but faster?


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## thowle (May 27, 2008)

The reason I say faster is because of the traffic.... around here when they see lights and hear the siren they seem to "freak out" and either stop in the middle of the road, drive slower and TRY to pull over, or just ignore us... where as if you go code 1, they drive nice and smooth just as normal.


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