# Accidentally dispatched to Unsafe Scene



## uhbt420 (Dec 2, 2010)

ok so one of my firemedic friends told me this story from when he did BLS 911 backup, like me.  it really got me thinking and im not sure what i would do in this situation.

someone calls 911 and reports an argument next door, which included a woman yelling "stop hitting me".  obviously a police officer should have gone right away, but by some ridiculous mistake, ems is activated instead for a "sick unknown".

bls makes it there first.  the argument has abated at this point.  my buddy knocks on the door.  they enter in to see a woman w/ a black eye and tears in her eyes.  husband had gone to his room.  woman immediately beckons them in.  at this point they are still assuming an ems call.  but then the woman starts saying everytihng's okay, he just gets angry sometimes, he almost never hits me.  

my buddy is kinda stunned, but things get even worse when the husband comes out cuz he sees the ambulance lights.  he asks what the f is going on and seems very angry.  

obviously this SCENE IS NOT SAFE.  do you retreat to the ambulance and call PD asap, leaving the pt with an angry husband, or do you try to contain the situation and call PD?


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## GoatMan165 (Dec 2, 2010)

Retreat to ambulance with patient if she's willing, with my parter if she's not.


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## MrBrown (Dec 2, 2010)

Hmmm, you could always try the lost art of talking with the guy?

Brown has been to gang houses, murder scenes, pub fights, domestics, assaults etc and never felt unsafe and you think some guy raising his voice is unsafe?  How many people do you have there ... an ambulance crew plus a fire truck is what, six people?

Not adovacating strolling into every call with 30kg of gear and getting shanked or something but seriously bro ....


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## Sam Adams (Dec 2, 2010)

MrBrown said:


> Hmmm, you could always try the lost art of talking with the guy?



But Brown, if someone actually talks to people who is going to look after all the fancy equipment we have?


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## MrBrown (Dec 2, 2010)

Sam Adams said:


> But Brown, if someone actually talks to people who is going to look after all the fancy equipment we have?



Being a good Ambulance Officer is 97% people skills, 2% good basic care and 1% fancy things like cardioversion, adrenaline and suxmaethonuum


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## usalsfyre (Dec 2, 2010)

Attempt to defuse and retreat, with or with out the patient. Although the suxamethonium might be useful if the situation gets rowdy.


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## Bullets (Dec 2, 2010)

First, you should have your flashlight wth you, like a 4d mag lite, second grab patient and run, while partner takes pt out, cover his rear and attempt talk down perp if nesseccary.


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## usalsfyre (Dec 2, 2010)

Bullets said:


> First, you should have your flashlight wth you, like a 4d mag lite, second grab patient and run, while partner takes pt out, cover his rear and attempt talk down perp if nesseccary.



So I was with you right up until we launched a preemptive strike on the boyfriend...


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## Bullets (Dec 2, 2010)

usalsfyre said:


> So I was with you right up until we launched a preemptive strike on the boyfriend...



Where did I launch a preemptive strike? I said cover your partner and patient while they exit, talk down the boyfriend if he shows


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## usalsfyre (Dec 2, 2010)

Bullets said:


> Where did I launch a preemptive strike? I said cover your partner and patient while they exit, talk down the boyfriend if he shows



Misread on my part, very sorry.


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## EMSLaw (Dec 2, 2010)

Look at the radio.  See the little orange button.  Push the little orange button.  Set off warning flares at dispatch.  Hopefully my driver remembered to call out on location.   

Seriously, I would try to withdraw peacefully and wait for the po-po if I could.  I'd call for emergency assistance as above if things looked to be going pear shaped fast.


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## Shishkabob (Dec 2, 2010)

usalsfyre said:


> So I was with you right up until we launched a preemptive strike on the boyfriend...





Hey, your and my guidelines say Ativan and Versed for agitation.... it doesn't say WHO'S agitation 



Honestly people, yelling does not instantly make a scene unsafe.  You realize how many times I had customers yell when in retail?  I don't freak out and run away.


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## Chimpie (Dec 2, 2010)

EMSLaw said:


> Look at the radio.  See the little orange button.  Push the little orange button.  Set off warning flares at dispatch.  Hopefully my driver remembered to call out on location.
> 
> Seriously, I would try to withdraw peacefully and wait for the po-po if I could.  I'd call for emergency assistance as above if things looked to be going pear shaped fast.



Our radios were all equipped with these magical buttons.  It would open the mic for 15 or 30 seconds (I forget which) and every radio would hear what was going on.


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## TransportJockey (Dec 2, 2010)

Keep  in mind not all.of us carry something like that  I know I sure wouldn't, too much wright not enough benefit





Bullets said:


> First, you should have your flashlight wth you, like a 4d mag lite, second grab patient and run, while partner takes pt out, cover his rear and attempt talk down perp if nesseccary.


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## Veneficus (Dec 2, 2010)

Bullets said:


> *First, you should have your flashlight wth you, like a 4d mag lite*, second grab patient and run, while partner takes pt out, cover his rear and attempt talk down perp if nesseccary.



I have said it many times, but why not one more?

A weapon can be just as dangerous to the weilder as the antagonist.

A weapon makes a confrontation more likely. 

The very presence of a weapon can lead to escalation of weapons. When you pull out your 4 D cell maglite. The opponent may see your club and raise you a gun.

In addition I have transported a handful of LE officers who tried to "rescue the damsel in distress" and when LE started beating down the man, the female feeling sorry and responsible turned on the LE officer. With things like cast iron skillets. Sure sometimes they both go to jail, but on one occasion the officer, bought himself disability with a serious brain injury.

I have also transported more than 1 security guard who felt a Dcell maglite was a respectable weapon. One of those guards is no longer with us.

For your own safety, please seriously reconsider the use of force. In the fog of war, a win is never assured.


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## Bullets (Dec 2, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> I have said it many times, but why not one more?
> 
> A weapon can be just as dangerous to the weilder as the antagonist.
> 
> ...



yes, and thats why its not in  my hand, but on belt at the back, so its not visible to the person who may pose a threat. should i be confronted with a person who may pose a threat, has shown a penchant for violence, he would never know the presence of the light unless i turned my back, which is asking for an attack. face him at all times, do not turn your back until your in the ambulance.

its less threatening then walking in with an ASP in my belt...

Did i say i would walk in and immediately whack the guy? i keep reading my post and i dont see where i said bludgeon the boy until dead. But faced the possibility of an unsafe scene at any time, i take a page out of boy scouts, Be Prepared. i dont advocate force, if i can diffuse the situation with speech then that is my go to option. but if SHTF i want to be able to defend myself should force be indicated per my County Use of Force Policy.


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## mcdonl (Dec 2, 2010)

Had a "similar" but different call recently....

Called for "Alchohol Poisoning....."

Turned out to be an OD of prescription meds mixed with ETOH, with no real life threats but a ton of psychological effects.

So, the pt was "in and out of consciousness" I called ALS (Got my service chief, a medic...) and had this uncooporative pt in a basement, with steep stairs and just me and the driver (another basic....) No PD, never considered it to be honest....

Well, got the pt to the ambulalance, picked up the medic and during our ride home we discussed the call....

Patient was Pink, Warm and Dry with normal respirations and PERRL. Medic Got on board, told the pt to knock it off and the pt snapped out of it.

Also I was told it is illegal to attempt suicide, so this was a crime scene. I should have retreated to the ambulance and waited.


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## STXmedic (Dec 2, 2010)

There aren't a lot of situations that can't be talked down. I work in our city's most highly gang saturated area and we get put in situations like these nearly every shift. If the pt/family member/whoever is just yelling... really not too big of a cause for concern. Try and calmly talk the agitated person down (or even just ignoring him and talking to the patient works pretty well, too). If he starts becoming hostile, make some bs up to get the pt into your ambulance. "Ma'am, lets get you in our unit so we can evaluate you a little better." Once your out of his ear shot, get dispatch to send you PD. It's not you they are agitated with, its the situation/pt/whatever. Make it clear you aren't the cops, and they're usually good. The biggest thing is to stay calm. You being hasty and agitated will only make the situation worse. The only time I've ever had to leave a scene because of hostility was a shooting where the shooter was still on scene. He told us to not touch the pt; we gladly obliged and pulled around the corner. And I agree with Veneficus, leave the "weapons" out of it. The only thing it will do is make the situation that much worse because now they're threatened by YOU.


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## feldy (Dec 2, 2010)

Had a call recently where we were called to a home for a siezure for a 30 y/o M. Turned out pt had major ETOH. Turns out he was faking a siezure and as soon as we tried to assess him, he starting swinging at us. Family was able to calm him down but we called PD and stepped outside. (it was our third highly combative pt of the night and didnt want anything to escalate). There were a lot of other people in the room too. PD got there, he calmed down, we restrained and transported. That is our protocal, not to say that we havnt had to take down a pt before in the middle of transport, but we did not need that on a busy night.


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## Outbac1 (Dec 2, 2010)

As Brown said, "people skills". Thats when your mouth becomes your best weapon. Talk the situation down and exit, preferably with the pt. If not, exit and let the PO PO deal with it.

"Although the suxamethonium might be useful if the situation gets rowdy." usalsfyre
 Wouldn't sux in an epi pen type dispenser be nice


"The opponent may see your club and raise you a gun." Veneficus
Or see his raise of a gun, shoot first and get a good lawyer.


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## abckidsmom (Dec 2, 2010)

PoeticInjustice said:


> There aren't a lot of situations that can't be talked down. I work in our city's most highly gang saturated area and we get put in situations like these nearly every shift. If the pt/family member/whoever is just yelling... really not too big of a cause for concern. Try and calmly talk the agitated person down (or even just ignoring him and talking to the patient works pretty well, too). If he starts becoming hostile, make some bs up to get the pt into your ambulance. "Ma'am, lets get you in our unit so we can evaluate you a little better." Once your out of his ear shot, get dispatch to send you PD. It's not you they are agitated with, its the situation/pt/whatever. Make it clear you aren't the cops, and they're usually good. The biggest thing is to stay calm. You being hasty and agitated will only make the situation worse. The only time I've ever had to leave a scene because of hostility was a shooting where the shooter was still on scene. He told us to not touch the pt; we gladly obliged and pulled around the corner. And I agree with Veneficus, leave the "weapons" out of it. The only thing it will do is make the situation that much worse because now they're threatened by YOU.



Smart stuff right here.

People skills extend to agitated rednecks, too.  In a situation where I wasn't able to actually ask for PD on the radio once, I just keyed up my radio and said loudly, "Sir, please step away from my partner."  Had half the precinct in no time.


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## goodgrief (Dec 2, 2010)

Nope.
Im going to truck and calling Pd

Scene unsafe

What is the 1st thing we bang into students in EMT school 
1. Dont bug the teacher during lunch
2. Scene safe?

Scene is


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## Shishkabob (Dec 2, 2010)

goodgrief said:


> Nope.
> Im going to truck and calling Pd
> 
> Scene unsafe



Please, tell me, how is the scene unsafe?


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## CAOX3 (Dec 2, 2010)

In my experience these dirtbags abusers cave like cheap suits when confronted by some one who hits back.

So no my safety isn't at risk.  But if he decides to introduce violence his definitely will be.


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## Hal9000 (Dec 2, 2010)

I have been in too many scenes like that.  Mainly, they are simply irritating.  I've been yelled and screamed at, but I've managed to talk 95-97% of them in to being calm toward me, if not even apologetic (including someone who choked two subjects until they lost consciousness, and then ended up thanking us profusely—not that I'd trust him), which is an easy way to go.  

Just doin' my job; it's not like I want to be in your house...toodles.


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## goodgrief (Dec 2, 2010)

Linuss said:


> Please, tell me, how is the scene unsafe?



Dv is  a unsafe scene until po-po says other wise.
I live in ga, almost everyone has a gun and I'm going home to my beer.


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## brentoli (Dec 2, 2010)

uhbt420 said:


> someone calls 911 and reports an argument next door, which included a woman yelling "stop hitting me".  obviously a police officer should have gone right away, but by some ridiculous mistake, ems is activated instead for a "sick unknown".



I can tell you the last thing I would do... I'd be on the dispatch center like butter on toast. Being one myself, I don't put up with blatent mistakes.

Was it every relayed to EMS that this was a 3rd party call? I usually ask for PD to start on any 3rd party call, just because then it becomes a big game of Telephone, and I know things are much diffrent then they seem.



uhbt420 said:


> bls makes it there first.  the argument has abated at this point.  my buddy knocks on the door.  they enter in to see a woman w/ a black eye and tears in her eyes. Husband had gone to his room.  woman immediately beckons them in.  at this point they are still assuming an ems call.  but then the woman starts saying everytihng's okay, he just gets angry sometimes, he almost never hits me.



Key up the radio right then and just say "Unit ### Start PD." That it. If you can get more out, fine, but you can do that sentence descretely and quickly maintaining your control of the victim and the scene.



uhbt420 said:


> my buddy is kinda stunned,



Like... he was vapor-locked stunned? Thats bad, that gets people killed in any profession. You have to keep professional and stay with the flow. Keep control of your scene.



uhbt420 said:


> but things get even worse when the husband comes out cuz he sees the ambulance lights.  he asks what the f is going on and seems very angry.



Just a tip, and this is of course policy dependant here... If I am on a low traffic resdidential street, or I pull/back into a driveway, I will turn the lights off. Might leave my 4-ways on, but turn off the emergency lights. It helps with the "helpful neighbor" factor. Also lowers peoples anxiety on scene. 



uhbt420 said:


> obviously this SCENE IS NOT SAFE.  do you retreat to the ambulance and call PD asap, leaving the pt with an angry husband, or do you try to contain the situation and call PD?



First off... be honest with the man. I would probably say something like "Look, I'm not the police, we got sent out here for a sick person. I don't know whats going on here, you're wife has been injured and we are doing an examination on her." If he doesn't calm down or back off, then we would have to make the decision to leave the area or not. I would ask the woman if she wants to come to the ambulance with us. Obviously that may not go over well with the husband, but hopefully PD is arriving shortly and we could stall it out long enough for them to show up.


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## EMDispatch (Dec 3, 2010)

EMSLaw said:


> Look at the radio.  See the little orange button.  Push the little orange button.  Set off warning flares at dispatch.  Hopefully my driver remembered to call out on location.



Love the little button...Turn down the radio, key it and after two attempts by dispatch to contact you...the cavalry is on the way.

It takes a lot at times to be comfortable defusing a situation through talk. I've had the unfortunate opportunity to do it many times at my other job, where I don't have an indiscreet panic button. The hardest part is trying to read a person and figure out what is most likely to deescalate the situation.

Starting with a calm/firm tone of voice, maintaining eye contact, and moving slowly and deliberately are the keys to success in my opinion.


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## Pseudonymous (Dec 3, 2010)

Seems like the most important thing to remember is that EMTs are not cops. I would make it very clear that we are there to treat medical problems, not arrest you. If that guy wanted me out, I'd be out of there as quick as I could. Violence is not in the EMTs scope of practice.

I haven't finished my EMT-b class, so I don't have any street experience, but I do know my area, and know that a lot of poor areas like the one I live in, can harbor a lot of aggressive, unintelligent people, who sometimes are not very reasonable.  

There's a reason your teachers pound scene safety into your mind during your class.  In fact, my class is only half over, and I already want to vomit every time I hear the words "Scene safety"


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## EMDispatch (Dec 3, 2010)

Pseudonymous said:


> Seems like the most important thing to remember is that EMTs are not cops. I would make it very clear that we are there to treat medical problems, not arrest you."



Unfortunately for some people uniform=cop and that's all they see.

Scene safety should always be top priority, you should be prepared for any scene to devolve into an unsafe one. As our instructor said, "The only thing between you and the door should be air."


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## Pseudonymous (Dec 3, 2010)

MCERT1 said:


> Unfortunately for some people uniform=cop and that's all they see.
> 
> Scene safety should always be top priority, you should be prepared for any scene to devolve into an unsafe one. As our instructor said, "The only thing between you and the door should be air."



I meant it's important for the EMTs to remember that they themselves, are not cops. It's not our job to protect people from their abusive lovers.

I understand that EMTs can look like police officers in situations like this. That's why I said the first thing I would say to the dude is that we aren't cops.


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## EMDispatch (Dec 3, 2010)

Understood,

I've had many exam ?'s  along those lines.

Essentially:
Patient is a victim of a crime, Do You?
A. Treat the victim
B. Interrogate them 
C. Do something even more inappropriate


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## MrBrown (Dec 3, 2010)

An interesting point was raised; icreasingly changes within society mean that whereas before Ambulance was left alone to do thier thing now they are being treated the sams as Police ... getting spat at/on, abused, assaulted and just generally disrespected.

While this is only by a small segment of society the number of times you will hear "hey bro we're not cops, see this? says ambulance and not police, we're not taking you to jail" seems to be going up.

In this situation a bit of yelling does not make a scene "unsafe" however.

Perhaps we could tweak what Alonzo in Training Day said ever so eloquently ... you want to go to jail or you wanna go hospital? LOL


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## DrParasite (Dec 3, 2010)

MrBrown said:
			
		

> How many people do you have there ... an ambulance crew plus a fire truck is what, six people?


agree 100%.  However that's assuming u get a fire truck.  6 people (4 of which r firemen) will make someone think twice about starting something versus a 2 person ambulance crew.  But many places won't get a fire truck for an assault call.

I know sop in my city is to send ems to a call where someone has been assaulted. PD does get sent but EMS often beats them the scene, and will often transport having PD meet the patient at the hospital for the report.  

We try not to send ems crews to assaults in progress, but sometimes PD doesn't give us the proper information before we dispatch a unit (and yes, all of our ems dispatchers do ask)


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## Bullets (Dec 3, 2010)

Pseudonymous said:


> I meant it's important for the EMTs to remember that they themselves, are not cops. It's not our job to protect people from their abusive lovers.
> 
> I understand that EMTs can look like police officers in situations like this. That's why I said the first thing I would say to the dude is that we aren't cops.



I think it is, once that person is in our care, she is our responsibility, and I think its our job to protect them while they are on or care. We are their advocates until they get to a hospital. while I'd rather not fight a person on scene, it has happened and as mentioned previously, those kinds of men folks like a cheap suit when someone actually shows any kind of confidence.


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## EMDispatch (Dec 3, 2010)

Protecting the patient by having them leave with you, or transporting on a suspected abuse case that has non-transport injuries is one thing. 

When it escalates to a physical threat I can do more retreating and calling police than getting into situation that may result in my inability to get help due to incapacitation or death. 

Doesn't mean protect the patient isn't a huge concern, but who's gonna save me?


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## Outbac1 (Dec 3, 2010)

> I understand that EMTs can look like police officers in situations like this. That's why I said the first thing I would say to the dude is that we aren't cops.



That's why I like a white uniform shirt. Street cops don't wear white. I might have to point that out to them but they usually catch on pretty quick. That and how many cops bring luggage into your house.


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## Bullets (Dec 3, 2010)

MCERT1 said:


> Protecting the patient by having them leave with you, or transporting on a suspected abuse case that has non-transport injuries is one thing.
> 
> When it escalates to a physical threat I can do more retreating and calling police than getting into situation that may result in my inability to get help due to incapacitation or death.
> 
> Doesn't mean protect the patient isn't a huge concern, but who's gonna save me?



My partner has my back, and I hope I can diffuse the situation before it gets to violence. I also hope me and my partners physical presence can convince some to not do anything stupid


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## EMDispatch (Dec 3, 2010)

Bullets said:


> My partner has my back, and I *hope* I can diffuse the situation before it gets to violence. I also hope me and my partners physical presence can convince some to not do anything stupid



Unfortunately that's all any of us can do, but it doesn't always go our way. One of the most important things is trusting our "gut".  If it doesn't feel right likely it's because the subconscious has picked up on cues you aren't aware of.

On a side note, _The Gift of Fear _ is an excellent read on that subject.


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## Bullets (Dec 3, 2010)

Outbac1 said:


> That's why I like a white uniform shirt. Street cops don't wear white. I might have to point that out to them but they usually catch on pretty quick. That and how many cops bring luggage into your house.



Around here, white shirts means police supervisors, sgt and above, plus our local leos wear light blue shirts


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## jrm818 (Dec 3, 2010)

A bit late to the party but...

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StHwAffUNxo[/YOUTUBE]


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## TransportJockey (Dec 3, 2010)

Brave Brave sir Robin


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## Hockey (Dec 3, 2010)

Fire the defib at 50,000 volts at the guy.

Yelling is an unsafe scene?  Jeesh, I'm more concerned with a drunk on the corner then a scene like that


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## Cohn (Dec 3, 2010)

EMSLaw said:


> Look at the radio.  See the little orange button.  Push the little orange button.  Set off warning flares at dispatch.  Hopefully my driver remembered to call out on location.
> 
> Seriously, I would try to withdraw peacefully and wait for the po-po if I could.  I'd call for emergency assistance as above if things looked to be going pear shaped fast.



WHat???? We have a orange button?

I would be nice... unfortunately there is not national standard for radios.

But a simple Code 999 and they will dispatch everything short of a armed military.


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## Veneficus (Dec 3, 2010)

Cohn said:


> But a simple Code 999 and they will dispatch everything short of a armed military.



As opposed to an unarmed military? :wacko:

Sorry couldn't resist that, it is the highlight of my day so far.


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## Cohn (Dec 3, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> As opposed to an unarmed military? :wacko:
> 
> Sorry couldn't resist that, it is the highlight of my day so far.



Your welcome my dear sir


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## MrBrown (Dec 3, 2010)

Looking good Oz, ambulance on scene, street sign at nine o'clock high should not be a problem, keep coming down .... some kids on the sidewalk at seven o'clock low looks like they are staying put, clear down .... 

*Brown and Oz roll up in thier funny orange getup

Should be enough to make anybody flee the scene right?


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## Pseudonymous (Dec 3, 2010)

Bullets said:


> I think it is, once that person is in our care, she is our responsibility, and I think its our job to protect them while they are on or care. We are their advocates until they get to a hospital. while I'd rather not fight a person on scene, it has happened and as mentioned previously, those kinds of men folks like a cheap suit when someone actually shows any kind of confidence.



It's not uncommon for an abusive husband, to walk in on EMS treating his wife, and demand they get away from her, and pick up something that could be used as a weapon. I don't understand how you could just "Retreat to the ambulance with the patient". The husband already said he doesn't want you interacting with her, and he has something that could be used as a weapon in his hand. I personally think it would be asinine to try and "Protect" the patient, by "Taking her back to the ambulance". You would just make the husband angry and attack you, and possibly the patient. Maybe you're okay with getting into a fight on scene, but are you okay the the patient possibly getting hurt more?

The farthest I'd go to protect a patient, is remove them from the scene before the husband comes back, or reasoning with him if he sees you. I don't know how it is where some of you guys come from, but here, we don't carry handcuffs, we don't carry guns, and it's not in our scope of practice to challenge a potentially aggressive man in his own home.

Of course there are plenty of calls that are appropriate to protect a patient from harm, but abusive lovers, at least where I come from, are not people you want to mess with.

That's my 2 cents.


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## Bullets (Dec 3, 2010)

Pseudonymous said:


> It's not uncommon for an abusive husband, to walk in on EMS treating his wife, and demand they get away from her, and pick up something that could be used as a weapon. I don't understand how you could just "Retreat to the ambulance with the patient". The husband already said he doesn't want you interacting with her, and he has something that could be used as a weapon in his hand. I personally think it would be asinine to try and "Protect" the patient, by "Taking her back to the ambulance". You would just make the husband angry and attack you, and possibly the patient. Maybe you're okay with getting into a fight on scene, but are you okay the the patient possibly getting hurt more?
> 
> The farthest I'd go to protect a patient, is remove them from the scene before the husband comes back, or reasoning with him if he sees you. I don't know how it is where some of you guys come from, but here, we don't carry handcuffs, we don't carry guns, and it's not in our scope of practice to challenge a potentially aggressive man in his own home.
> 
> ...



I believe that OP said the boyfriend/husband was in another part of the house when ems arrived and made patient contact. We are leaving with the patient IMMEDIATLEY, partner and patient first out, I'm close behind, prepared to stall. We are talking 30 seconds or less in the house


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## Pseudonymous (Dec 3, 2010)

Bullets said:


> I believe that OP said the boyfriend/husband was in another part of the house when ems arrived and made patient contact. We are leaving with the patient IMMEDIATLEY, partner and patient first out, I'm close behind, prepared to stall. We are talking 30 seconds or less in the house



I wasn't really describing OP's situation. OP's situation isn't really that unsafe. I was explaining instead a similar, more dangerous situation that happens very often.


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## DT4EMS (Dec 3, 2010)

This thread does a great job of provoking thought amongst the members.

Interesting how the topic has brought up a lot of great points. A lot of people have given their take on what they might do in such a situation..........but I am curious..........

How many of you have a department that trains you for such situations? A couple folks made comments that this type of a scene as in the OP was not that bad. That they respond regularly to worse........

 What type of training did you get in responding to those calls? Does your agency back it up with a policy or is it just a known thing?

I ask because I am truly curious. Most of the stuff people do is what was passed down from the senior folks sharing what was taught to them.

Folks.........Firefighters, EMS and Nurses are injured almost every day due to an assault. Have you mentally prepared yourself for the "what if"?

* What if you hit the guy with the maglite.........and it doesn't stop him?
*What if you back out and he kills the wife?
*What happens if he appears from the back room with a rifle or pistol?

Have you practiced your verbal skills for situations like this? Can you reason with a person who is enraged as in a DV situation? What if there was ETOH involved?


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## Veneficus (Dec 3, 2010)

DT4EMS said:


> How many of you have a department that trains you for such situations? A couple folks made comments that this type of a scene as in the OP was not that bad. That they respond regularly to worse........



Never once have I worked anywhere that has trained or even had a policy for these situations. Even the hospitals I am affiliated with in the States and in Europe do not.



DT4EMS said:


> What type of training did you get in responding to those calls? Does your agency back it up with a policy or is it just a known thing?



Well, I had several years in martial arts , but no training from the departments. No policy as stated above.




DT4EMS said:


> I ask because I am truly curious. Most of the stuff people do is what was passed down from the senior folks sharing what was taught to them.



For once in my life I fit in!!!! Really I learned from the senior guys when I was junior and from first hand experience making mistakes. To give them credit though, I learned a lot from them and I stand by it as not only useful, but valuable. Certainly not all that is needed though.



DT4EMS said:


> Folks.........Firefighters, EMS and Nurses are injured almost every day due to an assault. Have you mentally prepared yourself for the "what if"?



Everytime I went on a call or go to the ED. I have spent many years working in the absolute worst environments of mankind, I credit my still creeping around with a lot of preparedness and a little bit of luck.



DT4EMS said:


> * What if you hit the guy with the maglite.........and it doesn't stop him?



Never carried a maglite, but on the broader point, if I had to resort to violence, the only thought in my mind is to win by any means neccesary, except tripping my partner, because it really would be life and death.

However, A win may be just buying enough time to escape.

"He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day."  




DT4EMS said:


> *What if you back out and he kills the wife?



There is a funeral for her, not for me.

Seriously, though. If I wanted to confront people in order to rescue somebody else, I would have been a soldier or law enforcement officer.

If I thought I could pull her out with me, by all means I would, but I am not trained nor equipped to deal with a hostage, and unless when he turned on her I was pretty confident I could kill him in a single blow (highly unlikely in any event) I am not entering a melee especially with my experience of domestic violence parties turning on would be rescuers.

"Great warriors do not fight to win, they win and then fight."

-Sun Tzu, The Art of War. (closest thing I have to a holy book)  



DT4EMS said:


> *What happens if he appears from the back room with a rifle or pistol?



I run and hide noting the difference between cover and concealment. Always move cover to cover, but concealment is better than nothing. Otherwise "duck and weave." 

(to make this sound more heroic I would write in the report: "I took cover")




DT4EMS said:


> Have you practiced your verbal skills for situations like this?



Only in sitations like that.



DT4EMS said:


> Can you reason with a person who is enraged as in a DV situation? What if there was ETOH involved?



Talk my way out, probably. Reason with them? Nope.

It is always great to see you and your wisdom in these threads.


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## Bullets (Dec 3, 2010)

our department applies the county's user of force policy, which details when using physical, mechanical, chemical, and lethal force is indicated. 

Every year the county offers a course for ems and pd called street survival, designed to instruct on how to truly survive in situations requiring a physical responseand hand to hand combat, it includes disarming assailants and vocal diffusion. Its an excellent course taught by a retired state trooper who is an active medic.


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## Pseudonymous (Dec 3, 2010)

DT4EMS said:


> *What if you back out and he kills the wife?






Veneficus said:


> There is a funeral for her, not for me.
> 
> Seriously, though. If I wanted to confront people in order to rescue somebody else, I would have been a soldier or law enforcement officer.
> 
> If I thought I could pull her out with me, by all means I would, but I am not trained nor equipped to deal with a hostage



My thoughts exactly.


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## Veneficus (Dec 3, 2010)

*What is going on here?*

I am not singling anybody out, but I have noticed a trend.

As the years go by, there are more and more providers who advocate, consider, or in some form or another seem to be of the mind that a confrontation is going to be resolved through force/violence?

I would like to think I know something about the whole matter, having been intimately involved in conflict of some type all of my life, but really? Does anyone who thinks they are going to get into a fight with a bystander or patient ever consider that they might actually not be the person winning the fight?

All it takes is one lucky/unexpected shot, and you could be disabled or worse. 

It can happen so suddenly, that if your "protection" in the form of fighting mentality/stance, weapon, or improvised weapon is not at the ready, it will likely be over before it can be brought to bear.

Whether the thread post is "my concealed firearm is so well hidden and inaccessable, that even the UN could authorize force faster than I could recognize a threat, draw, and use it," or "I am such a badass ninja I will beat down in a second without fail, that mentally altered guy who is 3 weight classes higher than me, gets into fights regularly, and when not actually fighting is practicing/rehersing his next one;" it seems many have a dangerous attitude of invincibility.

Does anyone remember that altered people don't really respond to pain?

Does anyone consider that once you commit to actual combat, you may have eliminated any hope of escape?

Maybe you are a badass ninja, but what about your partner? 

What happens if you are wounded? Sure the SWAT team is outside, but it might be a few minutes/hours before anyone is coming to help you.

Are you independantly wealthy enough to maintain your family and lifestyle on disability?

What will the strain on your family be? 

There are many consequences, so many, I am not going to type them, but really everyone. This is not the movies, the good guys don't always win, the ending is not always happy, and the average emergency worker has considerably more to lose than anyone who would fight with them.

A fight can really cost somebody everything, it is not whoever falls down first is no longer the alpha dog on the playground.

PS. it is really hard to pick up girls when you are in a wheelchair or missing a limb.


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