# More Medics Who Don't Assess



## ResTech (Aug 3, 2009)

> *Baltimore Paramedics Investigated for Treatment*
> 
> RICHARD IRWIN
> The Baltimore Sun
> ...


How many times is it gonna take for Paramedics to realize the obvious isnt always the obvious...


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## Sail195 (Aug 3, 2009)

Wow someone is going to loose their cert over this one.... Not good at all


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## surub (Aug 3, 2009)

That's unfortunate


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## EMS49393 (Aug 3, 2009)

The same medic unit.  I wonder how they felt when they returned for this man they pronounced dead?

BCFD has very few actual paramedics that work in the medic units.  For years they had this FPA (firefighter paramedic apprentice) program where they put people through the intermediate class in the academy.  I understand the last couple of classes had very few of them actually pass and be placed on the medic unit.  The company I work for hold a paramedic class in six months.  Both of these programs put out the very worst providers.  They have the same feeling that most urban systems have, quantity over quality.  After all, you never use any of that anatomy/physiology stuff anyway.  

I came to work for my company two years ago, and in two years four of their medic mill medics have lost their certifications.  They turn out an average of 8 medics a year.  Eight medics, and after a year only six of them are able to maintain their certification.  That's pitiful.

Several years ago another BCFD medic lost his certification for abandoning a patient in the ER waiting room.  The patient died a short time after transport.  He never transferred care, and no one even knew the woman was there because she couldn't physically take herself up to the desk and check in.  I knew the guy personally, and he was a crap medic that could have cared less about patients, so it was to patient benefit that he is no longer in the business.

<Insert *need for increased education standards* speech here>


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## TRowe (Aug 4, 2009)

How is this even possible? What could the excuse be? I guess they just assumed he was dead. Oh well. I guess next time they will take the 15 seconds to check for a pulse. Not that hard.


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## medic417 (Aug 4, 2009)

Did they change title to Paramedic because the news title was originally EMT?


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## Sasha (Aug 4, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Did they change title to Paramedic because the news title was originally EMT?



Don't pretend this hasn't happened to paramedics too.


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## medic417 (Aug 4, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Don't pretend this hasn't happened to paramedics too.



Oh I'm not remember San Antonio.  Just seems odd that the title changed.


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## medic417 (Aug 4, 2009)

Seems our poster may have changed it.  Why the change?  
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bal-emts0803,0,2844825.story

EMTs investigated after man mistakenly pronounced dead

  By Richard Irwin and Brent Jones

Baltimore Sun reporters

2:17 PM EDT, August 3, 2009


The city Fire Department is investigating the emergency medical treatment medics gave a man shot by a police officer responding to a burglary at a Northwest Baltimore grocery store early Saturday


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## medichopeful (Aug 4, 2009)

TRowe said:


> How is this even possible? What could the excuse be? I guess they just assumed he was dead. Oh well. I guess next time they will take the 15 seconds to check for a pulse. Not that hard.



If there is a next time.


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## Sasha (Aug 4, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Seems our poster may have changed it.  Why the change?
> http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bal-emts0803,0,2844825.story
> 
> EMTs investigated after man mistakenly pronounced dead
> ...




Some people use "Medics" to describe all manner of emergency medical persons. Eh, don't harp on it.


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## Jon (Aug 4, 2009)

The article uses EMT and Medic interchangeably. Does BCFD use BLS providers for their ambulances?


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## Melclin (Aug 4, 2009)

One of my lecturers in first year liked to tell a little story to illustrate the foolishness of assumptions.

He and his partner were called to a car accident. Unconciouss female slumped over steering wheel and the car was fairly seriously damaged. His partner approaches the woman, recoils back and returns to my lecturer and says, "Don't bother, she's a mess, covered in blood and her heads in bits". My lecturer approaches to check her properly, and finds that she is actually covered in the tomatoes and diced vegetables that had been lying on the seat behind her before she collided with the telephone pole. 

This was all very funny until he drove his point home: Because of her conscious state and her position, she couldn't and wasn't breathing. She quite probably would have died had they not performed a proper assessment in addition to their initial impressions, and simply appropriately positioned her airway. Luckily, she only ended up with a nasty bump on the head, thanks to nothing more than proper assessment.


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## medic417 (Aug 4, 2009)

Jon said:


> The article uses EMT and Medic interchangeably. Does BCFD use BLS providers for their ambulances?



Yes but OP appears to have changed title, why?  I have no problem understanding the public calls us all ambulance drivers, emt's, medics, Paramedics regardless of what we really are.  Just wondering why the title got changed to be posted here?  

  I hope this city did not allow EMT's to determine death.  Surely they actually were Paramedics, though apparently not very well educated ones since they missed life.


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## EMS49393 (Aug 4, 2009)

They were probably intermediates which, in Maryland, are ALS providers.  They can do nearly everything we can do only they have to consult for most advanced procedures.  

I just happen to have my protocol book here at work with me and I'll present you with the Presumed Dead On Arrival protocol:

1. Purpose: This protocol is designed to assist the provider with the  presumption of death in the prehospital setting.

2. Indications: Presumption of death in the field (without initiation of resuscitation) should be considered only in the following instances:
a. Decapitation
b. Decomposition
c. Rigor mortis
d. Pulseless, apneic patient in a multiple casualty situation where system resources are required for stabilization of living patients
e. Pulseless, apneic patient with injury not compatible with life (with the exception of an obviously pregnant female where resuscitation attempts should be initiated and the patient transported to the nearest appropriate facility)

I'm going to skip ahead to number 4.
4. Precautions
c. Do not attempt to guess future outcomes based on the appearance of the patient (e.g., shotgun blast to the face of suicide victim). Failure to act because of mistaken notions of outcome will resutl in a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Did they violate protocol?  That's the million dollar question.


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## NEMed2 (Aug 4, 2009)

We've had a few similar cases in CT.  I will try to research the outcome of the individuals that treated the pts.


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## ResTech (Aug 4, 2009)

I didn't change the title.. that was copied directly from emsresponder.com.


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## medic417 (Aug 4, 2009)

ResTech said:


> I didn't change the title.. that was copied directly from emsresponder.com.



So emsresponder is the guilty party.  Get a rope.


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## EMS49393 (Aug 4, 2009)

Although highly doubtful that there would have been NO ALS on that scene, it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility.  BCFD does have this thing called a "critical alert" where they put a couple of van type ambulances in service with some highly p***ed off EMT's they pull off of fire trucks.  It might be a fire fighter that had a pint of Ben & Jerry's waiting for him that determined the guy was dead.  It probably wasn't, but just sayin'... It could have been.


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