# a female perspective, please



## yogakat (Feb 20, 2009)

i'm looking to start training in may (fingers crossed).  39 year old female, married 16 years, no kids.  i'd like to hear from any other girls out there the brutally honest truth about how it is for females in this field and how it has affected any long term relationships you have (or had...).

i've gotten one reply on this earlier in another post (thank you for that...i'd rather hear the truth than have rose colored glasses) and am looking for other opinions and experiences.  

any guys out there...i's also appreciate hearing your take on how the women you work/have worked with fare in this field as it relates to their personal lives.

i've got no fear of hard work, just want to know what personal implications there could be.  i've heard both sides and am trying to get as realistic a picture as possible.


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## reaper (Feb 20, 2009)

Women in EMS only agencies have no problems. You may run into some in Fire, that have it tough.

As long as your husband can handle you working long hours and is not jealous of you working with male partners, then you will have no problems.


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## LucidResq (Feb 21, 2009)

I think some women come into this field expecting discrimination and change their behavior in preparation. I have definitely seen a few women "overcompensate" and try hard to be more masculine or put up a "touch b****" persona and it's really obvious and lame. Honestly, I have yet to face any discrimination, difficulties, or anything due to my gender; nor have I seen it happen to any other females I know. Obviously, I recognize that this is not the case in every agency or individual in EMS and that there are many women out there that have struggled with discrimination. 

Granted, some of the guys that I am close with will give me :censored::censored::censored::censored: and tell me to "get back to the kitchen and make me a sammich," but it's all in good fun and doesn't bother me. I give them :censored::censored::censored::censored: for being skinny or Asian or old or whatever. I would tell them if their woman jokes were offending me and I know that they would respect my feelings. You need to have a tough skin in this field, regardless of your gender. And if something is bothering you, you also need to have the maturity to speak up. 

As far as relationships go, I did have some major issues with my ex-boyfriend, whom I was with for 3 years. He was pretty jealous and uncomfortable with me being in such close quarters with so many young, single men. Being on call for SAR 24/7/365 was also pretty straining on our relationship. Many intimate moments were abruptly interrupted by the beep of my pager. 

In retrospect, the relationship was doomed. My involvement in this field just killed it faster. It seems to me that as long as your relationship is solid from the get-go and you are both willing to work hard to resolve the issues that will arise, everything will be fine.


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## DevilDuckie (Feb 21, 2009)

Never get married.


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## Second (Feb 21, 2009)

DevilDuckie said:


> Never get married.



I'm starting to learn that!


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## smvde (Feb 21, 2009)

Best advice I can give goes for both male and female. Simple advice really.

Keep your pants on at work, or if you prefer, never get your honey where you get your money.

Too often I've seen EMT students and new hires who immediatly try to screw everyone at the station. Sort of like badge bunnies do with police.

You are here to work, not here for sex and romance.

As for discrimination against female partners, I don't care if you are male or female, white, black or any other color, you can even burn candles to satan as long as you can do your job.

I've seen some females who think that by virtue of their gender that they shouldn't have to lift the patients, or do anything else that requires effort, which is not acceptable.  If you hire on to do the job, then do it.

There are those cavemen who will be there to leer and make suggestive comments, but to be honest, there are women in EMS that do the same.  Take them for what they are, idiots. 

Good luck.


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## medic417 (Feb 21, 2009)

As a man I have no problem working with any one if they can do their job which includes lifting.  Male or female you can't do your job I will run you off.  

The only women looked down on or treated badly are the ones that try to fit in by fitting in everybody in the station in a sexual way, some even don't care male or female.  They may enjoy the initial attn but they are never respected and never make it.  

If you are married does your husband understand you will be alone with a male partner for hours possibly days in high stress situations?  If he is the jealous type you will have trouble.


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## CAOX3 (Feb 21, 2009)

smvde said:


> Best advice I can give goes for both male and female. Simple advice really.
> 
> Keep your pants on at work, or if you prefer, never get your honey where you get your money.
> 
> ...



Well what fun would that be

Seriously I have had female partners for the last ten years.  I actually enjoy it, they have a much better bedside manner then me.  

They can relate to some female complaints better then me, and it comforting sometimes for female pts to have a female to discuss things with.  

Seems to be a win win situation.


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## jochi1543 (Feb 21, 2009)

Granted, I have only been in this field for like half a year, but I've never encountered any situation at work where I felt my being female was of any relevance. Well, actually, once we got dispatched to a domestic violence call, I hopped on as a driver/extra help, but the 2 guys said I may need to attend instead if the victim is more comfortable with a female there. That was the only time my gender was even brought up (and no, the woman didn't care, so my 2 male partners attended and I drove).

I've had a LOT more problems in an office environment.


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## PotatoMedic (Feb 21, 2009)

My personal opinion (which is more geared towards the firefighter side) is that if they pass the test, get hired, make it through academy then I don't care what they are.  I will give them my respect till their personality dictates otherwise.


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## piranah (Feb 21, 2009)

i love having female partners they give me relationship advice and are my "man behind enemy lines" about inside info on good presents


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## BossyCow (Feb 21, 2009)

I've worked in jobs my whole life that were not traditional female type jobs. If you are good at what you do, have a relatively healthy emotional perspective, a good maturity level and some professional ethics, you are going to do well no matter what line of work you are in. 

There are jerks out there. The co-workers who give other people crap about their gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, religion, politics, choice in automobiles, eye color, choice in hair style, and various other criteria may show up in your workplace. They are morons and they are in the minority. Ignore them, everyone else does. 

If you read into simple teasing and normal workplace B.S. that its based on racism, sexism, or any of the many other 'isms' you will find evidence to support that chip on your shoulder. If you understand that sometimes people are insensitive without meaning to, you will do fine. 

As to a relationship, the biggest hurdle is the time involved. You will eat many dinners alone. I've been with my husband for over 25 years. We are both in EMS. I know of many long marriages between EMS professionals. In every case, both partners are fairly strong willed, independent people. The marriages I've seen fall apart have generally been those where the non-EMS partner falls apart during the time where the spouse is on shift. A relationship with someone who is gone for long periods of time, is only going to work if the one at home has plenty of self directed activities to keep them going. 

My husband and I were friends for several years before we started dating. We knew each other through previous relationships. When our relationship hits one of those nasty patches, we have that friendship to fall back on until the road smooths back out. We genuinely like each other. 

If your relationship is strong, it will do fine. If it isn't, the stress of EMS will show you those areas where you need work. It can be done, but its work and a lot of people (roughly 50% according to statistics) don't feel its worth working on. You get to pick which side of that statistic you choose to live.


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## Kookaburra (Feb 22, 2009)

The entire medic unit in my town is female. They even adopted Rosie the Riveter as a mascot. 

And thank you to the OP for posting this. I've been lurking for awhile here, and have been wondering the same things.


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 22, 2009)

I honestly do not see much trouble for females in EMS anymore.  I haven't since the mid 80s, actually.  There are jerks out there who do not like working with women, just like there are jerks out there who dislike working with other groups of people too.  That's life.  But it isn't a major factor in EMS as a whole these days.  Although, your organisation may differ and turn out to be seriously misogynistic.  You just never know.

If you run into problems getting along with someone, do not immediately jump to the conclusion that it is because you are female.  Don't automatically be a victim.  Find out the problem and work on fixing it.  He may just not like rookies in general.  He may not like people who went to the school you went to.  He may have had an ex wife with hair like yours.  You just never know.  But most of the time, if you are willing to be the adult, you can work it out.

One problem I do often see with women entering the field is not at work, but at home.  Especially women who have been married for awhile.  And double especially if you have not been working up to this point.  If you have been a stay-at-home mom for these years, and you suddenly are going to be spending a lot of time away from home, that is naturally going to cause resentment from your spouse.  And EMS is generally much worse than any other job you could have taken because it involves long, unpredictable hours.  Your husband is going to be coming home to a table with no dinner prepared on it, and clothes that never got washed, after you leading him to expect that for the last sixteen years.  You are changing.  You are breaking the deal.  And this is often not well received by a spouse.

To compound the problem, n00bs to EMS -- unlike other jobs -- are generally way too gung ho about it and immerse themselves in the EMS "lifestyle", wearing their spouses out with stories that they have no interest in.  And all that excited interest you show in your new career is excitement he wishes were reserved for him.  So you can go on and on about it, and spend a lot of time at home wearing a uniform that he finds wholly unattractive on you, listening to the scanner all day long, and feed the resentment he feels for your new passion, or you can keep your mouth shut and feed the resentment you feel for him not being supportive.  Either way, resentment grows, and so does unhappiness in the relationship.  Seen it a thousand times.

So, how to avoid that?  Simple.  Remember this:  EMS is not a lifestyle.  It is not a hobby.  It's not a calling.  It is a job.  Period.  A low paying, lowly trained grunt job that most people have too much self respect to even consider.  Don't think of it as anything more, because it is not.  Don't wear it on your sleeve or the bumper of your car.  Don't start buying "Third Watch" DVDs.  Don't nail the "EMT Prayer" on the wall.  Don't start looking for volunteer opportunities.  Get up, go to work, put in your hours, go home, get out of the uniform, and be a wife and mother again.  Off duty is off duty.  If you feel that you need to put more time in effort into it than that, well you are right.  But that time and effort should be spent on furthering your education to become a true medical professional.  That is something your spouse can understand and respect, because he then knows that this is a professional commitment for you, and not just a new and exciting passion that is taking attention away from him.

Other than that, don't sweat it.  This is the twenty-first century.  Except in rare instances, real EMS is not a good ol' boys club anymore.  You'll be just fine.  Good luck!


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## Kookaburra (Feb 22, 2009)

I will say something I was completely shocked by. I took my very first fireteam test in another city. I was the only female testing. I'm so used to the gender parity in my own city (and my EMT-B class is about 50/50) that it took me completely by surprise. However they were all perfect gentlemen, and there were no remarks or anything made by anyone that would have made me feel uncomfortable or marginalized.


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## Sasha (Feb 22, 2009)

It really all depends on you. Some women can have great relationships. Some women can't seem to find a significant other who will understand and is willing to sometimes take a back seat. If you're at work, you're at work. You can't always answer that "I was just thinking about you" phone call an you may not always be on time to anniversary dinners, etc. And some companies have policies that if there's a natural or man made disaster you're expected to be at the station, not at home with your family. Could your husband handle that? Can you?

As for the work aspect, you will run into some who don't care that your a woman, some that like it, and some that hate it. Some say we as females naturally have a better bedside manner and are better for the patients, some that say we're weak, can't lift and shouldn't be in the field and others that feel you were put there for sexual innuendos and harrasment. Even some patients! I can't tell you the number of times I've walked into a room and been asked how I intended to lift the stretcher! 

The thing is, to be in EMS you can't give other people reasons to doubt you or dislike you. Don't strive to overcompensate by being a witch. Do strength training, don't be overly girly. No tight pants, keep your shirt buttoned.

Don't flirt with anyone, not even playfully flirting because it's not the place. People wont take you seriously and think you got in EMS to find a husband (or a side boyfriend) and play around and not for the patient care.

And don't tolerate sexual harrasment. If someone sexually harrasses you in EMS, report it, talk to them about it, tell them to stop. If you don't, they assume it's okay, you like it, whatever.


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## yogakat (Feb 22, 2009)

lots of comments...thaks to all

hmmm...i'll try to reply to some of your thoughts here, in no particular order...

love my husband way too much to let a job get in the way...i'd have no problem walking away if i had to.  he's not jealous, he just worries about me...and that's nice.  more people in this world need to worry about others.

we already have schedules that don't match and haven't for many years.  whoever cleans cleans, whoever does laundry does laundry, whoever does the shopping does the shopping, etc...  on a side note, no self respecting person would ask me to get in the kitchen where i belong and cook...i'm a terrible cook and have no problem admiting it...not only that, i'm vegan so if i DO cook more than likely you wouldn't want to eat it ^_^

i don't take offense easily, so no problem with that...and i like to think that i can hold my own.  go to far, and i have no problem dealing with that, either.

i don't mind working around lots of guys...i've been in the fitness industry for nearly 20 years, so lots of guys there both as clients and co-workers...at least as an EMT i'd be wearing more clothes <_<

i'm pretty strong already...good side effect of my job.  and i routinely have to carry 40, 50 and 80 lb bags where i volunteer...and i don't need help.  that said, i'm not afraid to ask when i do need it. safety, safety, safety!

i'd imagine that i could be the more difficult partner to work with...i have a very high work ethic and a low tolerance for laziness or ineptitude...i expect everyone to do their jobs.  kidding around is always fun, but just make sure the job gets done...and done right.  people either really like to work with me or they really hate it...not a lot of in between.

i'm not a girly girl.  i like to get my hands dirty.  and i like to help others.  EMT sounds like the way to go!


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## medic417 (Feb 22, 2009)

yogakat said:


> EMT sounds like the way to go!



Well it is a start but do not settle for that.  To have the greatest impact finish basic and immediatly get started on your Paramedic.  You sound like the type of person that would get frustrated about not being able to do much for your patients.  So get your education and have a much bigger impact on yor patients lives.


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 22, 2009)

yogakat said:


> i'm not a girly girl.  i like to get my hands dirty.  and i like to help others.  EMT sounds like the way to go!


There are a lot of ways to help others.  Since you are already doing some kind of volunteer work, you obviously know that.  But what I am saying is, don't choose EMS simply because it seems like an exciting way to "help" people.  I don't even accept students if they can't come up with a better reason than that.  That motivation wears thin pretty quickly, especially when you come to realize that you are truly "helping" very few people with anything more than a taxi ride.  If you do EMS, do it because you think that the practice of medicine is simply the coolest, most intellectually stimulating thing you can think of to do with your life.  In the end, that is what it is all about, and that is what will keep you happy and committed.  It will also ensure that you continue your education to become the best that you can possibly be, not just another EMT with three weeks of night school.


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## jochi1543 (Feb 22, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> Don't start buying "Third Watch" DVDs.



Haha, reading this made me laugh, one crew here just went through a 4-day Third Watch marathon...I wanted to hang myself, lol.


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## yogakat (Feb 23, 2009)

But what I am saying is, don't choose EMS simply because it seems like an exciting way to "help" people.  I don't even accept students if they can't come up with a better reason than that.  That motivation wears thin pretty quickly, especially when you come to realize that you are truly "helping" very few people with anything more than a taxi ride.  If you do EMS, do it because you think that the practice of medicine is simply the coolest, most intellectually stimulating thing you can think of to do with your life.  



i've been interested in the medical field for some time.  i've looked at the many options that are available to me and the ones that would best fit my interests and character.  I want to be hands-on and have direct patient contact.  i've always thought that you never know who could be in the ambulance going by...it could be your spouse, child, parent.  and that person needs someone who is caring, focused and committed to doing all that they can for them to ensure the best outcome.  

one of the best things about this area is that it is constantly changing...new ideas, new procedures, new protocol...there is always more that you can learn.  i want a job that is both physically AND mentally challenging 

I am thinking of doing a year or so as an emt and then going back for paramedic (a little experience is always nice).  or, would you recommend to just go straight from one to the other?


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## yogakat (Feb 23, 2009)

ummm...i was replying to aj hidell...who i thought that i had excerpted in the first paragraph...sorry...my thoughts are from the second paragraph on...


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## sir.shocksalot (Feb 23, 2009)

yogakat said:


> I am thinking of doing a year or so as an emt and then going back for paramedic (a little experience is always nice).  or, would you recommend to just go straight from one to the other?


Get some experience first, as an EMT you need to be at the point where you aren't scared of sick patients, you can absolutely nail your phone and hand off reports every time without thinking, you have a strong knowledge of ALS procedures and medications, their indications and roughly how to administer them. And most importantly, you can obtain a good and thorough patient history, critically think through patient conditions, and focus you history taking to obtain rule out and differential diagnosis. The best EMT's make the best Medics. To get to that point might take you 3 months or it might take 3 years.


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 23, 2009)

yogakat said:


> I am thinking of doing a year or so as an emt and then going back for paramedic (a little experience is always nice).  or, would you recommend to just go straight from one to the other?


Yes and no.  I do recommend that you immediately continue your education before the ink is even dry on your EMT card.  However, it will take you at least a year of college to complete the prerequisite support courses necessary to enter paramedic school with a clue.  Consequently, no, you would not go directly to paramedic courses, per se, but on to take anatomy & physiology 1 & 2, microbiology, algebra, chemistry, psychology, and sociology to establish a solid scientific foundation for paramedical education.  While your medic school may well require other support courses for graduation, those are non-science courses that you can take concurrently with the medic courses without overloading yourself.

I disagree wholly with sir shocksalot about EMT experience.  In my experience as an educator, a preceptor, a supervisor, a manager, and as a medic, you don't have to be a good EMT first to be a good medic.  In fact, I find that the best EMTs make the worst paramedic students.  Being a good EMT is completely different from being a good paramedic.  In fact, the two jobs are so different as to bear very little resemblance to each other.  The attitude required for success is very different for each.  The more time you spend as an EMT, the more it works against you as a paramedic student.  An ungodly number of hours are wasted in every paramedic class, arguing with "experienced" EMTs who are convinced that their measly field experience is greater than anything that we can teach them.  Consequently, much time is wasted listening to their pointless and counterproductive war stories and trying to break mistaken notions and bad habits that they picked up in the field.  There is nothing you will pick up in most EMT experience that is not just as easily picked up during paramedic ride time.  If you can avoid it, don't do it. The very best medics I have ever work with all had two things in common:

1.  They were college graduates
2.  They went directly to paramedic school with no EMT experience

Look at it this way.  Would you rather raise your own kids from birth, the way you want to raise them, or would you rather adopt someone else's thirteen year old and try to raise them from there?  It's a no brainer.  A clean slate is always the best way to start off.  And the slate of someone with a few years of bad EMT experience is very hard to erase.

On the other hand, you have to do something during that year that you are taking the college courses, right?  Some part time experience to test the water is not totally inadvisable.  It can help you assure that this is really what you want to do with your life, by exposing you to the mechanics of the job, such as dealing with screwy shifts, spending 12 to 24 hours a day cooped up with someone you may not like too well, being abused by people who don't appreciate you (patients and management both), and getting paid peanuts for hard work.  That, however, is really the only positive thing that I -- with over three decades of experience as a medic and educator -- can say about an EMT getting "experience" before attending medic school.

Of course, I have no idea where you are.  You may or may not even have any options for employment as an EMT where you are.  That is actually quite common in many parts of the US, where EMS is either run completely by the fire departments or volunteers, or else a system that does not utilize EMTs at all.  And so many schools are cranking out so many EMTs across this country that there is a glut of them in most cities, meaning that the few EMS jobs for them out there are usually taken and heavily competed for.  A better option would be hospital work, if you can find it.  EMTs working as ER technicians tend to get a better educational exposure, acquiring quality patient contact, surrounded by a lot of doctors and nurses who are in teaching mode, and without picking up the bad habits you get in the field.

Unfortunately, there are a great many paramedic schools in this country that suck.  Many are run by undereducated tech-school nimrods who don't know the first thing about the concepts of adult education.  All they know is what they got from their medic school however many years before, and they tend to simply "do it the way everyone else does it".  Consequently, many will have an entry requirement specifying a certain amount of field EMT experience before admission.  If that is the case where you are, you may have to start working on that so-called "experience" right away in order to position yourself for enrolment as soon as possible.  Just beware that the school that does that is to be suspected of suckage.


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## LucidResq (Feb 23, 2009)

yogakat said:


> I am thinking of doing a year or so as an emt and then going back for paramedic (a little experience is always nice).  or, would you recommend to just go straight from one to the other?



I think working as a basic for a while is a good idea. Just make sure you don't get side-tracked and lose sight of getting your medic. 

I think it would be a bad idea to spend thousands of dollars and 6-24 months getting your medic without knowing this is a field you're sure you want to get in to. Many of the paramedic programs around here require a year of paid experience as an EMT-B as a prereq.


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## medic417 (Feb 23, 2009)

yogakat said:


> I am thinking of doing a year or so as an emt and then going back for paramedic (a little experience is always nice).  or, would you recommend to just go straight from one to the other?



It is best to enter straight into Paramedic so you do not pick up bad habits.  You can get some experience as a basic while you are in the Paramedic program.  Honestly it is better to get your experience once you actually have some education.  Think about other Medical professions, they do not stop and go they get their education then go do internships (clinicals) then go to work.  Do yourself a favor and do not settle with doing first aid work as a basic, go straight to getting some medical education then hit the field as a Paramedic.


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## Sasha (Feb 23, 2009)

LucidResq said:


> I think working as a basic for a while is a good idea. Just make sure you don't get side-tracked and lose sight of getting your medic.
> 
> I think it would be a bad idea to spend thousands of dollars and 6-24 months getting your medic without knowing this is a field you're sure you want to get in to. Many of the paramedic programs around here require a year of paid experience as an EMT-B as a prereq.



ACtually, a lot of paramedic programs Don't require field experience as a basic, and I would recommend straight into paramedic school. You should find out "What you're getting into" while doing your preceptorship for emt. Other than that, there is really nothing to be gained from working as an emt. Experience? Doing what? Learning bad habits and providing basic first aide? Everyone preaches "Well if you work as an EMT you'll remember BLS first, ALS second." Well, if you're any kind of good medic you'll remember how to treat a patient correctly.

With proper education you shouldn't be afraid of sick people because you'll learn how to protect yourself from getting sick and what you can and can't catch, etc. Your assesment? You'll learn how to do an even BETTER assesment in Paramedic school, so why be satisfied with just knowing how to do a basic assesment for a year? Ask any Medic student. From even the first semester I was always thinking of things that should be done for the patient at a Medic level, thinking of things to asses to better understand the patient's problem, but could only provide BLS treatment.


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## BossyCow (Feb 23, 2009)

As you can see the EMT first or straight to EMT-P is a well worn debate on here. Check out the requirements of your state. Some require a period of time as a basic before you can apply to Paramedic. It also depends on your financial situation and your individual learning style. Some workplaces will sponsor and even kick in on tuition for an EMT upgrading to basic. Some will guarantee your job when you are done. 

I had to laugh about you being vegan. You will catch a lot more abuse over that than you ever will about being female!


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## lightsandsirens5 (Feb 23, 2009)

Well, yogakat, you sound alot like one of my favorite partners. About the only difference is she is not married. (Plus a few minor details.) She is even a vegan! (I enjoy her cooking anyway!^_^) I never really paid attention to this thread yet b/c of the title, but I have no problem working with a female partner as long as they can pull their own weight and half of the patients weight.

Actually I think that a crew with one male and one female is a good idea 'cause that way it is easier to deal with some pts. (Like a guy that wants a male attendant and a gal that wants a female attendant.)(Of course if a guy wants a female attendant....................:wacko:that's a different story. Then I'm back there with him and my partner drives, unless it is her turn to do pt care and there is an LEO riding with us who can be back there with her. This don't happen often.)

Good luck!

Joe


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## sir.shocksalot (Feb 24, 2009)

Sasha said:


> ACtually, a lot of paramedic programs Don't require field experience as a basic, and I would recommend straight into paramedic school. You should find out "What you're getting into" while doing your preceptorship for emt. Other than that, there is really nothing to be gained from working as an emt. Experience? Doing what? Learning bad habits and providing basic first aide? Everyone preaches "Well if you work as an EMT you'll remember BLS first, ALS second." Well, if you're any kind of good medic you'll remember how to treat a patient correctly.
> 
> With proper education you shouldn't be afraid of sick people because you'll learn how to protect yourself from getting sick and what you can and can't catch, etc. Your assesment? You'll learn how to do an even BETTER assesment in Paramedic school, so why be satisfied with just knowing how to do a basic assesment for a year? Ask any Medic student. From even the first semester I was always thinking of things that should be done for the patient at a Medic level, thinking of things to asses to better understand the patient's problem, but could only provide BLS treatment.


In my state if you want to go to a real paramedic program, you need a MINIMUM of one year of experience. If you pick up bad habits as an EMT you have no business going to medic school, and if you are the sort of person who is prone to picking up bad habits you will do them as a medic anyway. If you want to be a good medic, go work in the field for some time and watch what your medics do like a hawk. You will learn more watching a competent field medic than you ever will in school. School is way different from the streets. Learn how the streets work, learn how operate an ambulance, see some sick patients before you go to medic school, I have only ever seen one half decent zero to hero paramedic. The 1000 hours of ride time or whatever it is, isn't sufficient, if there was more ride time hours required I'd say go for it, or if you were in a BUSY system, go for it, but if you aren't running 15 or so calls in a 12 hour shift you aren't going to have the patient contact time to prepare you for life by yourself on the street.


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## smvde (Feb 24, 2009)

sir.shocksalot said:


> . If you want to be a good medic, go work in the field for some time and watch what your medics do like a hawk. You will learn more watching a competent field medic than you ever will in school.



I agree in part, but the knowledge and theory you learn is school is tatamount to becoming a good medic.




sir.shocksalot said:


> School is way different from the streets.


  So true as we all soon learn




sir.shocksalot said:


> Learn how the streets work, learn how operate an ambulance, see some sick patients before you go to medic school, I have only ever seen one half decent zero to hero paramedic.



Dead on the money. Having experienced/suffered through, several Zero to Hero medics, I agree.


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## Ridryder911 (Feb 24, 2009)

sir.shocksalot said:


> In my state if you want to go to a real paramedic program, you need a MINIMUM of one year of experience. If you pick up bad habits as an EMT you have no business going to medic school, and if you are the sort of person who is prone to picking up bad habits you will do them as a medic anyway. If you want to be a good medic, go work in the field for some time and watch what your medics do like a hawk. You will learn more watching a competent field medic than you ever will in school. School is way different from the streets. Learn how the streets work, learn how operate an ambulance, see some sick patients before you go to medic school, I have only ever seen one half decent zero to hero paramedic. The 1000 hours of ride time or whatever it is, isn't sufficient, if there was more ride time hours required I'd say go for it, or if you were in a BUSY system, go for it, but if you aren't running 15 or so calls in a 12 hour shift you aren't going to have the patient contact time to prepare you for life by yourself on the street.



Just think of how many poor medics that you see? Think of all those bad habits you see occur daily? 

Anyone that think school is way different, never understands that one applies  what they learn in school and place it in action. If one thinks school is way different, either had a piss poor program or does not know how to take comprehensive knowledge and place that into a clinical perspective. 

I also throw the B.S. flag of "more calls is better". If you run more than > 10 calls in 12 hours then you are in a system that is a "load and go". Sure you will learn to rapidly assess and hurriedly transport but really how much treatment and assessment did you do? I have the same feeling as those “coffee clinical” that does not see anyone. Both are poor areas for a student to be in. 

A normal call usually takes the minimum of 20 -30 minutes +. I much rather have a student perform clinicals participating in quality  ride time than numbers. Numbers don't mean sh*t! As long as the student gains enough patient contacts and is able to be exposed and be able to perform their skills and meet their objectives is what matters. Yes, skills are easily obtained but the knowledge should be the main objective.

There is a happy medium. Schools and educational instruction needs to seek those places, as well as  good and competent  clinical preceptors. If one has a good institution of education, I see no difference from student outcomes. I teach both. Where the experience field technician may have street sense, the non-experience medic usually is more attentive in the care and treatment of the patient. 

R/r 911


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## PapaBear434 (Feb 24, 2009)

smvde said:


> I agree in part, but the knowledge and theory you learn is school is tatamount to becoming a good medic.
> 
> 
> So true as we all soon learn
> ...



I almost went that route.  I got my BLS cert, applied to my current agency, and immediately started doing my ALS classes.  I sat there, wondering what "vagal maneuvers" were and why I was the only BLS in the class that didn't know.

I took a few months off, got released to operate as BLS, and restarted medic school.  Hopefully, I'll be better off for it.


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## medic417 (Feb 24, 2009)

PapaBear434 said:


> I almost went that route.  I got my BLS cert, applied to my current agency, and immediately started doing my ALS classes.  I sat there, wondering what "vagal maneuvers" were and why I was the only BLS in the class that didn't know.
> 
> I took a few months off, got released to operate as BLS, and restarted medic school.  Hopefully, I'll be better off for it.




Sounds like the school sucked if they did not teach vagal manuevers.  As a basic you should not be doing vagal manuevers.  So what is the point of your saying being a basic helps.  I disagree.  A quality paramedic program will educate you so that you are confident and well prepared for the field w/o having done any time as a basic.


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## PapaBear434 (Feb 24, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Sounds like the school sucked if they did not teach vagal manuevers.  As a basic you should not be doing vagal manuevers.  So what is the point of your saying being a basic helps.  I disagree.  A quality paramedic program will educate you so that you are confident and well prepared for the field w/o having done any time as a basic.



Basics DON'T do vagals, no.  But you do see them in the field, so the other BLS people that have been doing this for at least a year knew what they were.  I didn't know what SVT was either, for that matter.  It's all stuff they just assumed was common sense, and I was clueless.

Going back after a year, everything makes a lot more sense and I am maintaining a 3.9 average, so it couldn't have hurt.


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## medic417 (Feb 24, 2009)

PapaBear434 said:


> Basics DON'T do vagals, no.  But you do see them in the field, so the other BLS people that have been doing this for at least a year knew what they were.  I didn't know what SVT was either, for that matter.  It's all stuff they just assumed was common sense, and I was clueless.
> 
> Going back after a year, everything makes a lot more sense and I am maintaining a 3.9 average, so it couldn't have hurt.



Well honestly the other basics had no real knowledge of what they were either.  The school failed you by not educating you.  I am glad you are doing better this time around though.   Keep up the hard work.


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 24, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> Anyone that think school is way different, never understands that one applies  what they learn in school and place it in action. If one thinks school is way different, either had a piss poor program or does not know how to take comprehensive knowledge and place that into a clinical perspective.


Spot on.  The only difference between the classroom and the field is the environment.  Medicine is medicine, no matter where you practice it.  The principles do not change.  I agree 100 percent with Rid (the only other educated paramedic educator on the forum that I am aware of, besides Vent), that if your medicine is different in the field than it was in classroom or clinicals, then either your school sucks, or you are on the road to FAIL.  Do not let all the blowhards out there BS you with that worn out line.  It will hurt your professional development.



PapaBear434 said:


> I ... started doing my ALS classes.  I sat there, wondering what "vagal maneuvers" were and why I was the only BLS in the class that didn't know.
> 
> I took a few months off, got released to operate as BLS, and restarted medic school.  Hopefully, I'll be better off for it.


I'm not sure I am getting you, Papa.  You thought you weren't ready for paramedic school because you did not already know the information they were trying to teach you?  WTF?  Teaching you what that information is about is what paramedic education is all about!  You're not getting the point that Rid and I are putting forth here.  It is better for you and your educational development if you do NOT know that stuff before beginning paramedic education!  True, competent educators want a blank slate.  We do not want to have to spend valuable educational time trying to overwrite the bad information that is already scribbled into your brain by working with lazy and undereducated medics who take shortcuts or believe that the field is different from the classroom.  Those instructors and those medics -- no matter how good they are in the field -- know zero about the concepts of adult education, and what it takes to make you the best medic that you can be.  And most of the people out there spouting this nonsense about getting street experience before medic school are doing so for one of two reasons:

1.  They are ignorant, and all they know is what they have been told by others.  It's the old "this is the way we've always done it" argument with absolutely no basis in sound educational theory.

2.  They simply don't want to see anyone get there faster than they did or do.  EMS people are an insecure lot, always measuring their progress against others.  If they have screwed around driving a transfer ambulance for three years, then they want you to do that too.  They can't stand the fact that someone actually had the time, funds, intelligence, and professional commitment to do it faster than they did.

Neither of those are valid reasons to establish policy.  This is EMS, where our policies should be evidence based.  And the evidence suggests -- and is validated by every other medical profession -- that straight through is the way to go.  Think about it.  We are not so special that some different rules of education apply to us than to every other medical profession, are we?  Of course not.

Other than preconceptions from the above two reasons, the other reasons that people say they don't like "zero to hero" medics are because:

1. They simply don't want to like them, for reasons above, and lack the ability to objectively measure their competency.  They will find or manufacture any reason to criticize them, regardless of validity.

2.  They are measuring them by unreasonable standards.  The medic can be the best diagnostician since Dr. House, but these people will call them losers because they didn't know some trick about spider straps that they knew from experience.  Education trumps experience in medicine.  Experience without the foundation of education is dangerous.  But yes, everyone needs experience, and the more of it, the better.  But you cannot judge a brand new, unexperienced medic based on the expectations you hold for someone with experience, even as an EMT.  To judge them fairly, you have to compare apples to apples.  That means that you can't have any more expectations for a fresh medic than you would for a fresh EMT.  Both lack experience.  A valid comparison would be a "zero to hero" medic with a year in the field post graduate, to a brand new paramedic graduate with a year as an EMT.  Now think about it, which would YOU rather be?  A new medic, with a year's experience as an EMT?  Or a medic with a year's experience as a medic?  That's a no-brainer there.

3.  They simply do not see very many straight-through medics to judge, because either the culture or the school requirements in their area prevent such medics from being produced in their area.

Again, none of those standards are a valid means of judging the quality of a provider.  This old, outdated, and invalidated belief that one should get field experience as an EMT to make him a better medic is just another of those ingrained fallacies that is holding EMS education back in the 1970s.  It really has to change.  And in the better educational systems, where truly professional educators (not just "instructors") like Rid run the show, it is changing.  I just hope I live to see the day that everyone else gets a clue.


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## Sasha (Feb 24, 2009)

sir.shocksalot said:


> In my state if you want to go to a real paramedic program, you need a MINIMUM of one year of experience. If you pick up bad habits as an EMT you have no business going to medic school, and if you are the sort of person who is prone to picking up bad habits you will do them as a medic anyway. If you want to be a good medic, go work in the field for some time and watch what your medics do like a hawk. You will learn more watching a competent field medic than you ever will in school. School is way different from the streets. Learn how the streets work, learn how operate an ambulance, see some sick patients before you go to medic school, I have only ever seen one half decent zero to hero paramedic. The 1000 hours of ride time or whatever it is, isn't sufficient, if there was more ride time hours required I'd say go for it, or if you were in a BUSY system, go for it, but if you aren't running 15 or so calls in a 12 hour shift you aren't going to have the patient contact time to prepare you for life by yourself on the street.



Some people feel Paramedics should be more than just ambulance drivers. How can you hope to get adequate skill practice doing 15 calls in 12 hours? How many of those were refusals, or talked into being refusals, and how many of those were treated by O2 and transport? Clinicals are not just about patient contact, but about patient treatment. It shouldn't be a numbers game, more of a quality game.

You should be exposed to sick people at clinicals. There's something called EVOC to teach you how to operate an ambulance. 

You may pick up bad habits anyway, but it'll be easier for you to learn the RIGHT way than a medic teaching you the wrong way and going through school and learning it the right and trying to seperate the two. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "This is how the book says, but this is how you really do it".


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## Sasha (Feb 24, 2009)

> But you do see them in the field, so the other BLS people that have been doing this for at least a year knew what they were. I didn't know what SVT was either, for that matter. It's all stuff they just assumed was common sense, and I was clueless.



It's all stuff that needs to be gone over in the cardiac chapter, and if your instructor was just skimming through because he or she assumed you should know, then they were a horrible instructor.


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## smvde (Feb 24, 2009)

As I have stated before, and told every student in paramedic school I know. The key to success in medic school is simple.

1. Save the war stories for smoke breaks or lunch.

2. Read all materials at least twice before class.

3. Listen at least 20 times more than you speak.

4. Remember it isn't about What you know, its about LEARNING what you DON"T KNOW.

Use the Sirduke Method and you will be miles ahead of the rest of the class.

What was the original thread?


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## PapaBear434 (Feb 24, 2009)

Sasha said:


> It's all stuff that needs to be gone over in the cardiac chapter, and if your instructor was just skimming through because he or she assumed you should know, then they were a horrible instructor.



Having looked back over my BLS book, they covered very little of that in the cardiac section.  Anatomy, what valve does what, and what vessels pump where.  But it has nothing about the nodes, SVT, or various nerve "tricks."

Maybe it's just Virginia's protocols, or maybe it was the fact a BLS certified *fireman *taught our BLS class.


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## Sasha (Feb 24, 2009)

PapaBear434 said:


> Having looked back over my BLS book, they covered very little of that in the cardiac section.  Anatomy, what valve does what, and what vessels pump where.  But it has nothing about the nodes, SVT, or various nerve "tricks."
> 
> Maybe it's just Virginia's protocols, or maybe it was the fact a BLS certified *fireman *taught our BLS class.



I was talking about your Medic class, but even in Basic at the very end my book went a little into EKGs, different rhythms and such, just to understand what was going on.


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## PapaBear434 (Feb 24, 2009)

Sasha said:


> I was talking about your Medic class, but even in Basic at the very end my book went a little into EKGs, different rhythms and such, just to understand what was going on.



Yeah, our BLS didn't cover any of that.  As far as my introductory ALS classes, they were talking about the vagals and SVT the first couple days.  Like I said, I had JUST come out of my BLS class the semester previous, and had approximately 24 hours of actual road time under my belt.  They went into it later on, what the vagus nerve was, what it did, how to stimulate it...  All of that in depth later on, no worries there.  

But what I'm saying is that when you got in there, they expected everyone to have a baseline of knowledge and experience that comes from just being out on on the truck and watching the medics do their "thang."  And this was, obviously, above me.

Taking a little time off to see the real-world application of this stuff was well worth it, even if I didn't think it at the time.


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## yogakat (Feb 24, 2009)

smvde said:


> .
> 
> What was the original thread?




ummm...my original question was 'a femal perspective' on being an EMT...at some point i asked which would be better, EMT experience or straight to medic school...boy did THAT generate some responses

not that i'm not grateful...they've given me lots to think about...and i'm not letting anyone know which i'm thinking...

and i'm really thankful to all who posted reponses to my original post...it looks as though my marriage CAN survive this!

and, i'm a great gift chooser for those that mentioned that particular benefit of having a female partner


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## traumaangel26 (Feb 24, 2009)

yogakat said:


> ummm...my original question was 'a femal perspective' on being an EMT...at some point i asked which would be better, EMT experience or straight to medic school...boy did THAT generate some responses
> 
> not that i'm not grateful...they've given me lots to think about...and i'm not letting anyone know which i'm thinking...
> 
> ...



Like reaper stated before make sure your husband does not get jealous easily.  Let ur husband know you will be working with male partners and let him meet ur partner.  
My ex-husband could not handle the fact that I worked with other males.  We worked 24 hr shifts so we slept in the same room.  No big deal for you or me but it was for him. 
If you have a bad call talk to ur husband about it.  He may not fully understand but as long as he feels like he is a part of what you are doing I think you will be fine.B)


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## Kookaburra (Feb 24, 2009)

I've noticed that guys who get jealous like that end up being the ones who cheat. They are worried that you'll do it because they know they would if they were in a similar situation.


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 24, 2009)

smvde said:


> 1. Save the war stories for smoke breaks or lunch.
> 
> 2. Read all materials at least twice before class.
> 
> ...


Quality post, Duke.



PapaBear434 said:


> But what I'm saying is that when you got in there, they expected everyone to have a baseline of knowledge and experience that comes from just being out on on the truck and watching the medics do their "thang."  And this was, obviously, above me.
> 
> Taking a little time off to see the real-world application of this stuff was well worth it, even if I didn't think it at the time.


Papa, I completely understand what you are saying.  However, your logic is flawed.  You could have known all that information, and succeeded, simply by following the four rules that smvde listed above.

There is very little that should surprise you in class if you reading your assignments carefully and completely ahead of time.  This is why distance education can work so well.  But it is also a reason why people fail.  They go into a program not to learn, but to be taught.  Instead of taking responsibility for their own education, they just sit there and expect it to sink in through osmosis.  Instead of taking their reading assignments seriously -- which is the greatest possible factor in successful learning -- they think that their instructor is going to tell them everything they need to immediately know, and that they will just learn the rest in the field.  It doesn't work that way.  And it absolutely cannot work that way in the shorter paramedic courses.

The experienced EMTs are the worst about that "teach me" attitude.  They learned a few tricks in the field that have them convinced that they have an "edge", so they take the educational process for granted.  And that is why those with little or no field experience have a significant edge in paramedic education.


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## Aidey (Feb 25, 2009)

Just because something is mentioned in class, but isn't explained right at that second doesn't make the school a bad place. It sounds like PB left medic school, so it's entierly possible he left prior to that section being taught.

Edit: Good grief this discussion moved fast.


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## Aidey (Feb 25, 2009)

I'm a little late to the game here, but different people are going to progress differently in this field. For some people they need to get experience and familiar with EMS prior to becoming a medic, for others they are able to go straight into Medic school. In my Medic class the people who had experience did better across the board than anyone else. We were evenly split, 6 with experience, and 6 straight out of B school. All 6 with experience finished the program and got their NREMT first try. Of the 6 without experience 3 dropped out, and 1 never passed his NREMT, 1 took 3 tries to pass NREMT and the 6th actually did really well.

I personally think that there should be a 1 year minimum requirement between getting your EMT B and MICP with a minimum number of pt contacts during that time. (Unless the person has prior approved experience, such as military medic, nurse etc). I think this would really help weed out a lot of people that are not ready for medic school. 

I had 2 1/2 years of experience as a basic before I went into Medic school and even though I'm sure I had to unlearn some bad habits, I couldn't have done it without the prior experience.


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 25, 2009)

Neither graduation, drop out, or failure rates are a measure of how good a practitioner a student ultimately becomes in practice after graduation.  And how good a practitioner you ultimately become is the only measure of success that counts.


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## reaper (Feb 25, 2009)

Aidey said:


> I'm a little late to the game here, but different people are going to progress differently in this field. For some people they need to get experience and familiar with EMS prior to becoming a medic, for others they are able to go straight into Medic school. In my Medic class the people who had experience did better across the board than anyone else. We were evenly split, 6 with experience, and 6 straight out of B school. All 6 with experience finished the program and got their NREMT first try. Of the 6 without experience 3 dropped out, and 1 never passed his NREMT, 1 took 3 tries to pass NREMT and the 6th actually did really well.
> 
> I personally think that there should be a 1 year minimum requirement between getting your EMT B and MICP with a minimum number of pt contacts during that time. (Unless the person has prior approved experience, such as military medic, nurse etc). I think this would really help weed out a lot of people that are not ready for medic school.
> 
> I had 2 1/2 years of experience as a basic before I went into Medic school and even though I'm sure I had to unlearn some bad habits, I couldn't have done it without the prior experience.





So what is different from medic and RN school? There is no experiance required to go to Rn or med school. You get the education, then you gain the experiance. What makes EMS so different from the rest of the medical world??


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## PapaBear434 (Feb 25, 2009)

Aidey said:


> Just because something is mentioned in class, but isn't explained right at that second doesn't make the school a bad place. It sounds like PB left medic school, so it's entierly possible he left prior to that section being taught.
> 
> Edit: Good grief this discussion moved fast.



Actually, no.  That class was taught by a first time teacher, who was teaching to the national standard.  Unfortunately, the State of Virginia treats "Intro to ALS" as EMT- Enhanced school (non-standard certification unique to Virginia and Minnesota that allows for certain meds, IV's, and intubation.)  Thus, the ciriculum didn't match.

Out of the combined 32 people out of both of her summer classes, only four passed.  The college tossed our grades and offered us to take the class again because of it.  

Either way, though, my time of just working BLS was important to sharpen my BLS skills.  ALS is fine and good, but if you have crappy initial BLS skills, you won't make a very good medic in my view.


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## reaper (Feb 25, 2009)

PapaBear434 said:


> Actually, no.  That class was taught by a first time teacher, who was teaching to the national standard.  Unfortunately, the State of Virginia treats "Intro to ALS" as EMT- Enhanced school (non-standard certification unique to Virginia and Minnesota that allows for certain meds, IV's, and intubation.)  Thus, the ciriculum didn't match.
> 
> Out of the combined 32 people out of both of her summer classes, only four passed.  The college tossed our grades and offered us to take the class again because of it.
> 
> Either way, though, my time of just working BLS was important to sharpen my BLS skills.  ALS is fine and good, but if you have crappy initial BLS skills, you won't make a very good medic in my view.




Again, Why can you not hone all the skills after medic school? You get to hone the skills and have more education and knowledge to help your pt with, from the get go!


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## medic417 (Feb 25, 2009)

reaper said:


> Again, Why can you not hone all the skills after medic school? You get to hone the skills and have more education and knowledge to help your pt with, from the get go!




Applause!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Excellent.  Common sense says better education would lead to better patient care.


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## CAOX3 (Feb 25, 2009)

I would definitly spend some time as an EMT first.  Not for the experience, although I think its helpful. 

To decide if this is something you want to do with the rest of your life, before you drop ten-thousand dollars then figure out you dont want any part of EMS.


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## BossyCow (Feb 25, 2009)

A good student who is heavily invested in becoming a good medic will do well. Some will work as an EMT first, others won't. Crappy medics will come out of both approaches and so will excellent ones. I think the quality of the medic relies as much on what they bring to the school as the school itself. The best school in the world isn't going to turn a lazy, shortcut taking slacker into a good medic. Nor is a bad school going to stand in the way of someone deeply invested in learning. It may make it more difficult, but it won't stop them. 

We learn from every patient, every call and every other medical professional we work with. It never stops.


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## Aidey (Feb 25, 2009)

reaper said:


> So what is different from medic and RN school? There is no experiance required to go to Rn or med school. You get the education, then you gain the experiance. What makes EMS so different from the rest of the medical world??



Medics have a lot of autonomy compared to everyone else. RNs have A LOT more over sight and assistance, both by their peers and Doctors, RTs etc. They are also required to do more clinical hours. 

Even pre-hospital flight nurses are required to have experience before they can be flight nurses in most cases.

As much as we practice medicine, I think Medics should at least be competent and well versed in the skills they are going to be using before they are let loose on patients without any support.


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## Aidey (Feb 25, 2009)

Double post, oops.


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 25, 2009)

Aidey said:


> Medics have a lot of autonomy compared to everyone else. RNs have A LOT more over sight and assistance, both by their peers and Doctors, RTs etc.


And doctors have more autonomy than any of them.  Yet doctors are not required to work for two years as an RN before medical school.  Again, this nonsense simply does not happen in ANY other medical profession, so it is proven an invalid theory.



> They are also required to do more clinical hours.


Exactly.  So forget that stupid EMT experience stuff and spend more time in clinicals.  This is the FAILURE of so many paramedic schools.  Instead of taking responsibility for educating, they expect that all their students will have a foundation simply from "experience" which cannot be qualified.  And this is what happens when most of our instructors have no more education than the people they are teaching.  If you don't have formal education, you cannot know how to give formal education.



> Even pre-hospital flight nurses are required to have experience before they can be flight nurses in most cases.


Now you are talking about specialization, which is a very different scenario from initial education, no matter what the field.  Keep it apples to apples.



> As much as we practice medicine, I think Medics should at least be competent and well versed in the skills they are going to be using before they are let loose on patients without any support.


Agreed.  But until they get it in paramedic school, they cannot get the practice to acquire that skill competency.  Spending twenty years as an EMT-B is going to contribute nothing to that requirement.


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## sir.shocksalot (Feb 25, 2009)

As medic school stands right now, you need experience as an EMT to succeed. I would love to see EMS go the way AJ wants it to go, but as it stands right now the clinical experience received in medic school isn't adequate. Also keep in mind that as a paramedic, more often than not, you will be the only one on scene that knows ACLS. The experience you gain as an EMT will allow you to stay calm in that situation. Now if school required more clinical ride time, then yes experience would be pointless because you would gain better experience on your rides.


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## reaper (Feb 25, 2009)

Not all schools are modeled after CO's schools. Some do have plenty of clinicals.


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## sir.shocksalot (Feb 26, 2009)

reaper said:


> Not all schools are modeled after CO's schools. Some do have plenty of clinicals.


Unfortunately "some" is the keyword.
:sad:


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## medic417 (Feb 26, 2009)

sir.shocksalot said:


> Unfortunately "some" is the keyword.
> :sad:



If a student wants real education they should do some research and avoid the diploma mills with basically no clinicals.  I was shocked the other day to hear of a school only requiring 45 patient contacts for the ambulance and clinical combined.  So honestly that could at a busy service and ER be just 1 shift of each.  

Schools like that need to be shut down.   Even with basic experience the medics are still going to be lost if they pass NR and get hired.


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 26, 2009)

So long as ten-week patch factories are still a choice available to the ADD kids who typically choose EMS, they will remain the most popular choice.  Quality education is widely available in EMS.  Quality people, not so much.


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## Veneficus (Feb 26, 2009)

medic417 said:


> If a student wants real education they should do some research and avoid the diploma mills with basically no clinicals.  I was shocked the other day to hear of a school only requiring 45 patient contacts for the ambulance and clinical combined.  So honestly that could at a busy service and ER be just 1 shift of each.
> 
> Schools like that need to be shut down.   Even with basic experience the medics are still going to be lost if they pass NR and get hired.



The last ED I worked in saw 94K patients a year, with (2) twelve hour shifts dividing patients evenly (not realistic as daytime saw more and night saw higher acuity) with 150 patients a shift, you could get 45 contacts in less than 4 hours.


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## sir.shocksalot (Feb 27, 2009)

Veneficus said:


> The last ED I worked in saw 94K patients a year, with (2) twelve hour shifts dividing patients evenly (not realistic as daytime saw more and night saw higher acuity) with 150 patients a shift, you could get 45 contacts in less than 4 hours.


In the ED I went to for my EMT clinical I saw 2 patients. EMT training is a joke.


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## nightstar22 (Apr 6, 2009)

i do not recall running into any problems.. i work on an ambulance and volunteer on a fire dept. when i joined the fire dept they made me take an agility test. said they were going to start doing it from then on out.. used me as a time guide. however, to my knowledge, they have never made anyone else do this to join. it is still done in trainings but that is about it... 
now, i have dated a few guys that did not like the idea that i would be sleeping in the same house with up to 3 guys at a time...


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