# Equipment missuse



## PVC (Aug 18, 2012)

Should the participants of this obvious misuse of equipment be sanctioned or fined for using the resources of Salt Lake City for personal purposes?

Does the media really think that the defrauding of the people of Salt Lake City, so some guy can get his picture on TV is cute?

http://cnn.com/video/?/video/us/2012/08/15/firefighter-proposes-ladder-utah.ksl


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## Handsome Robb (Aug 18, 2012)

Are you really going to go after a guy for proposing to his girlfriend? C'mon.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say they had approval to do what they did, you can't just randomly decide to drive your ladder truck somewhere and through the stick up in the air...


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## medic417 (Aug 18, 2012)

I think you should bill him the full amount of all man hours and equipment use.  This is improper use of equipment.


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## DPM (Aug 18, 2012)

I think people need to stop getting outraged over everything. So he was proposing, I doubt very much that it happened without permission and any time you can use your tools and equipment outside of the classroom is a learning opportunity. On top of that, it could be a good PR shot for this department.


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## STXmedic (Aug 18, 2012)




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## medic417 (Aug 18, 2012)

DPM said:


> I think people need to stop getting outraged over everything. So he was proposing, I doubt very much that it happened without permission and any time you can use your tools and equipment outside of the classroom is a learning opportunity. On top of that, it could be a good PR shot for this department.



Good PR? Horsecrap.  Starving tax payer sitting seeing them abuse my tax dollars so he can can play smoochie face with his girl.  I don't think so.


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## bigbaldguy (Aug 18, 2012)

A. I think it's awesome.

B. it's great PR for both PD and FD in SLC.

C. She is way to hot for that guy. No way he'd score a woman that cute in line at   a grocery store in civies. I wish I was a FF :/

D. Fire departments blow more cash than this cost on pizza night.


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## Thriceknight (Aug 18, 2012)

bigbaldguy said:


> A. I think it's awesome.
> 
> B. it's great PR for both PD and FD in SLC.
> 
> ...



AGREED!!! Especially with that last part!


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## Handsome Robb (Aug 18, 2012)

medic417 said:


> Good PR? Horsecrap.  Starving tax payer sitting seeing them abuse my tax dollars so he can can play smoochie face with his girl.  I don't think so.



Training exercise. Killed two birds with one stone, they still have to go through the steps to through the tower ladder. 

Get over it. You would all hate me then because I waste money every time I have a third rider by using expendable supplies during our down time for education.

You want to save money? How about cut back on the thousands of miles fire departments put on their trucks driving to medical calls where they aren't needed instead of complaining about a single isolated event?


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## med51fl (Aug 18, 2012)

NVRob said:


> Training exercise. Killed two birds with one stone, they still have to go through the steps to through the tower ladder.
> 
> Get over it. You would all hate me then because I waste money every time I have a third rider by using expendable supplies during our down time for education.
> 
> You want to save money? How about cut back on the thousands of miles fire departments put on their trucks driving to medical calls where they aren't needed instead of complaining about a single isolated event?



Amen brother!  Preach, preach!

By the way, why is this in the EMPLOYMENT Thread?


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## Handsome Robb (Aug 18, 2012)

med51fl said:


> By the way, why is this in the EMPLOYMENT Thread?



Because they should all be fired so we can apply for their jobs, duh! 

Editing my typo: *throw the tower ladder not through the tower ladder.


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## medic417 (Aug 18, 2012)

YUUP EMS will never progress with the good old boy do whatever we want attitude.  Mine as well all be holding a beer with a big chunk of chew in your mouth as professional as this is.


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## bigbaldguy (Aug 18, 2012)

Someone needs a nap 

Yeah why is this in the employment thread? Someone should do something about that.


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## Handsome Robb (Aug 18, 2012)

medic417 said:


> YUUP EMS will never progress with the good old boy do whatever we want attitude.  Mine as well all be holding a beer with a big chunk of chew in your mouth as professional as this is.



Really? We aren't going to progress because a FIREFIGHTER proposed from the top of his department's tower ladder? Not an EMS department...a FIRE department. Great logic. Please expound on how this single incidence is why we will never progress... I've got an idea, if you're so dang grumpy about it why don't you call that department and ask if the proposal was approved and if they say yes, which I am willing to bet they will say it was approved, you can :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: at them and feed them the same line you just fed me.

Should I be fired because I wolf whistle my siren at girls that I know when I see them around town? 

Now that you mention it a nice Copenhagen sounds amazing right now with my beer.  

I'm half tempted to make a thread for those of us that chew, just because I know how annoyed you all get about it. 

I'll say it again, if you want to use the money or the "good 'ol boy" attitude as an argument why don't you start a movement to reduce FD response to medical aids where they aren't needed which will save exponential amounts of money nationwide on fuel, tires and wear and tear on the trucks or fire trucks running code 3 to lift assists? 

You know why there are so many burnouts in EMS? Because all the people who aren't burn out can't stand to work with some of the tightasses that end up being the burnt out people since they don't understand how to have a little fun. I'm not advocating misuse of equipment but the fact that you guys are harping on this poor guy for coming up with a cool way to propose is ridiculous. 

How about helicopters going to schools and showing all the kiddies the helicopter? Should we stop that? Since in fact it costs upwards of a thousand dollars an hour to run a HEMS chopper and the crew could die on their way to let the kiddies see the chopper. That's equipment misuse. If you are going to argue about it include everything, not just one incident.


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## Jon (Aug 18, 2012)

I see nothing wrong with this, so long as the bosses approved it. Given the media coverage, it is good PR for emergency services.

I can't find anyone making a stink about it locally, so I can't understand why anyone in our industry would even give a hoot.


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## rwik123 (Aug 18, 2012)

Someones jealous they didn't score someone like that gal.

Pull the stick out of your a:censored::censored:, I'm pretty sure they cleared this with the superiors. I thought it was cute.


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## Handsome Robb (Aug 18, 2012)

rwik123 said:


> Someones jealous they didn't score someone like that gal.
> 
> Pull the stick out of your a:censored::censored:, I'm pretty sure they cleared this with the superiors. I thought it was cute.



I definitely agree, she's not bad looking at all. With that said, at the end of the day she's still a cop


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## medic417 (Aug 18, 2012)

It's the whole stupid attitude that is being displayed by this act.  EMS, Fire, LE all seem to think they are entitled and the public is becoming tired of it as is evidenced by cut backs occurring in many areas.  If the higher ups approved this use they to should be punished.And as to the unrelated bs about fire responding to every EMS call, I agree that should stop as well.  99% of calls can be properly handled by just the 2 people in the ambulance.


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## PVC (Aug 18, 2012)

There are a few things that are at least noteworthy if not undeniable. 

The equipment was not his, nor is city equipment purchased, maintained and serviced so that individuals can use for personal gain. It doesn't belong to the chief or even to the mayor. So who signs off on the personal use of city equipment?

I really can’t blame the star struck lover too much, someone had to sign off on the misuse of departmental equipment. I would be suspect that the councilpersons that set the budget would not consider this to be appropriate designated use. The person who signed off should be held liable. In private sector business these actions could be prosecutable. 

The cost is most likely more than pizza. The real world cost of manpower in the fire and police departments, fuel, and wear on the equipment should be considerably more than pizza. What would privately renting similar equipment and crew have cost?  Ultimately, what does it matter how much it is? If it only cost 5 bucks it was still not his to use or his bosses to give. 

How can this possibly be good PR when it demonstrates gross management sloppiness? Oh, I am sure that the soap opera crowd will love it but working people should know that their companies don’t operate with public disregard to their investors and management principles. The business owners should surely notice.

The blatant disregard for proper management of public resources expressed by posters hints of a generalized condoning of a serious management flaw.  It makes me think that the misuse of resources may be more prevalent and far reaching than Salt Lake City. Why would someone be a serious professional on one hand, and wink at resource mishandling on the other. I don’t think the dichotomy of man is an argument with legal standing.

Well, at least he got the girl, imagine the story if she had said no.


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## VFlutter (Aug 18, 2012)

So a news crew just happened to be there at the right time to catch the whole story? I'm sure it's possible but I am betting it was pre-planned and approved. 

I am not upset about it however if I was in charge I am not sure I would have approved it. I guess I could write it off as a publicity event / training. It would be better if the truck was a backup truck and the crew came in on their day off or something just to do this and not be paid.


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## DPM (Aug 19, 2012)

PVC said:


> There are a few things that are at least noteworthy if not undeniable.
> 
> The equipment was not his, nor is city equipment purchased, maintained and serviced so that individuals can use for personal gain. It doesn't belong to the chief or even to the mayor. So who signs off on the personal use of city equipment?
> 
> ...



The cost of hiring the equipment is irrelevant. The fire fighters weren't called in especially, they were getting paid no matter what they did that day. The apparatus and equipment can be used at the company officer's discretion  
 for training and running errands... so it's two birds with one stone. The truck company got to practice using their equipment down town, and the guy got to propose to his girl friend at the same time.

It's not resource mishandling. It was a cost effective way to paint both Fire and PD in a good light (whether you think so or not) and believe it or not, there was training benefit to the whole event. Stop being such a boner and lighten up will you?


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## sir.shocksalot (Aug 19, 2012)

PVC said:


> There are a few things that are at least noteworthy if not undeniable.
> 
> The equipment was not his, nor is city equipment purchased, maintained and serviced so that individuals can use for personal gain. It doesn't belong to the chief or even to the mayor. So who signs off on the personal use of city equipment?


Really? what else do you think the ladder truck should be doing in the middle of the day? Sitting around playing x-box in the station? I don't see any misuse of equipment that was likely not being used anyway.


PVC said:


> I really can’t blame the star struck lover too much, someone had to sign off on the misuse of departmental equipment. I would be suspect that the councilpersons that set the budget would not consider this to be appropriate designated use. The person who signed off should be held liable. In private sector business these actions could be prosecutable.


Do you run or own a business? Ever worked for a private ambulance company? A manager drove a supervisor truck to a local pizza joint and bought 30 pizzas for all of the crews, is this a misuse of company equipment? Should we fire him?
Today I went to a restaurant on shift, then drove up the street and took a nap in the ambulance, then drove to a nearby redbox and rented a movie and watched it in the ambulance. Last week I did all my grocery shopping while in the ambulance, on shift. Am I a bad employee? Was I misusing company equipment? What would have been a better use of my time? Picking my nose while sitting at a street corner with the ambulance off to conserve gas? 

Waste is an inherent part of business however if it serves to improve company moral then the money is not wasted. And I am sure had that happened at my work I would have been thrilled that my management let them do that.



PVC said:


> The cost is most likely more than pizza. The real world cost of manpower in the fire and police departments, fuel, and wear on the equipment should be considerably more than pizza. What would privately renting similar equipment and crew have cost?  Ultimately, what does it matter how much it is? If it only cost 5 bucks it was still not his to use or his bosses to give.


So no more driving to the grocery store for food? What should the fire department be doing in their down time? Laying in bed to conserve calories so they don't have to eat as much?



PVC said:


> How can this possibly be good PR when it demonstrates gross management sloppiness? Oh, I am sure that the soap opera crowd will love it but working people should know that their companies don’t operate with public disregard to their investors and management principles. The business owners should surely notice.


You know, I actually was really happy for the guy when I heard the story. I thought "Wow, what an awesome way to propose, and she is hot to boot, good for him!" It's one of those "Aww!" stories, not one of those "what crap, what a waste of money" like a story in DC where the FD was out filling a swimming pool while everyone in the city was running calls. Why do you feel the need to rain on this dudes parade for something that probably cost all of $10 in gas to drive down to the office and maybe an hour of time where people weren't doing anything anyway?



PVC said:


> The blatant disregard for proper management of public resources expressed by posters hints of a generalized condoning of a serious management flaw.  It makes me think that the misuse of resources may be more prevalent and far reaching than Salt Lake City. Why would someone be a serious professional on one hand, and wink at resource mishandling on the other. I don’t think the dichotomy of man is an argument with legal standing.


I really think you have never worked before in your life. I normally don't single people out and pick on them, but really? I don't think a single person anywhere I have worked has not wasted company time or resources in a far more blatant way than this. People have moved furniture on shift, people have had IVs for hangovers, countless hours driving to restaurants, countless hours going to stores and running errands while at work. We work more hours than most other "professions" and sometimes we have to do home things while at work, if you don't understand and sympathize then I don't think you have ever had gainful employment.

Leave this happy couple alone, if you have a huge issue with FD "wasting money and time" then you need to get out there and start writing letters to every FD, EMS and PD agency in the US because I know my current employer (a private ambulance company), all my previous employers, and every FD I have worked with would absolutely accommodate this couple. And to the happy couple: congratulations; to the guy that proposed: she's hot, nice work.


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## DesertMedic66 (Aug 19, 2012)

So then is having an ambulance or fire engine attend a funeral a misuse of equipment?

By your defination I misuse equipment all the time for the EMT class (ie bringing equipment to the classes, bringing equipment to study groups, bringing the ambulance to special events for the EMT program). However I have clearence from the supervisors and higher ups. 

Our mechanics car broke down so he has been using an old ambulance (with no equipment) to get him to and from work of course with the supervisors permission. 

As long as it is cleared thru the right people then it is not an issue at all. Most of the "misuse" of equipment can be turned into a PR or training event. 

We will send ambulances to school events for free with on duty crews. Misuse of equipment or PR?

When I have a student rider or brand new EMT I will have them strip out IVs and use other equipment that has a one time use. It's considered training and the company has no problem with it.


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## PVC (Aug 19, 2012)

How can we equate using equipment that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars with the cost of pizza or a guy playing x-box on company time? (mentioned by someone else as I have not implied that this is true)

How do we equate proposing to a girl with the interment of a fallen comrade?

I would not make any of these comparisons.

An opinion on good management means a person has never worked or owned a business? Really? You will find a huge difference of opinion between business owners and employees. Some employees would possibly think that skimming is ok. Owners guarding their bottom line would surely disagree. For bosses skimming is stealing. Period. 

I must have really hit a sore spot. I apologize to all for any moral discomfort my opinions might have caused.


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## DesertMedic66 (Aug 19, 2012)

PVC said:


> How can we equate using equipment that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars with the cost of pizza or a guy playing x-box on company time? (mentioned by someone else as I have not implied that this is true)
> 
> How do we equate proposing to a girl with the interment of a fallen comrade?
> 
> ...



We weren't making that comparison. The issue of misuse of equipment was brought up. The issue of misuse was using the unit/engine/ladder for anything other then what it was made for. Since it was made to fight fires is it a misuse of equipment if it is used for anything other then that (ie funerals, PR events, going to the store for food.)


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## Undaedalus (Aug 19, 2012)

PVC said:


> I apologize to all for any moral discomfort my opinions might have caused.



As near as I can tell, the only one experiencing any moral discomfort is you. This is crazy.  If you have ever driven your ambulance/engine to the grocery store (or, ridden along while your partner/s did so, for that matter), then you are every bit as culpable as those you indict here.  Get over yourself, and stop being such a hypocrite.


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## leoemt (Aug 19, 2012)

What is the issue and where is the "fraud"?

First off it was an ON-DUTY firefighter. He is being paid whether he sits at the station, is doing training, or is on a call. 

Second, the ladder truck - as with any equipment - costs more sitting than when it is being used. Using equipment, especially vehicles, in a routine manner keeps the equipment in excellent condition.

Third, they most likely had permission to do this. 

Forth, it is a training exercise. Let them practice using the equipment. 

Those ladders can be stowed and the truck on its way to a call in under 5 minutes. I've seen them do that at fill the boot events.

How is this any different than them deploying a ladder for charity or PR. Your tax dollars weren't wasted, They were still able to respond to calls and they didn't deprive the taxpayer of one thing. 

I suppose you think its a waste of taxdollars for them to eat too.


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## Veneficus (Aug 19, 2012)

*wow*

After reading this I was going to type something about professionalism, comraderie, moral, PR, and just being human.

But rather I think this sums up my thoughts perfectly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdO4fOAGzsM

Nothing personal, I would say the same thing to anyone I have ever shared the experience of standing in harm's way with.


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## PVC (Aug 19, 2012)

Nothing to get bent out of shape over boys and girls. Interesting thoughts and stimulating insight from all.

Especially the you need a girl youtube link.

Cheers.


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## DrParasite (Aug 19, 2012)

it's great PR, the equipment wasn't taken out of service (it's pretty easy to have the ladder put back in its bed and go on a job), the only person who is complaining about it is YOU!

I'm curious, would you complain if a crew takes apparatus to the store to get food too?  what about if the ambulance crew goes to a bookstore to get a book?  or dunkin donuts or star bucks for coffee?  what about going out of service for training at the fire academy?  I know, you would be fired up if the chief of the department took his chief's car home to his house (which is in town) to have lunch with his wife and kids, since it's a gross missuse of taxpayer equipment.

oh, I know, you would complain about the crew who was posted on a street corner in 101 degree weather since they were running the truck to have the AC working, or in 40 degree weather running the truck so they can have the heat working, because they were wasting fuel by having the truck running.  I know some ambulance owners who would agree with you, and those are usually the same people who can't understand why they can't keep any halfway decent employee for longer than 6 months, or just don't care because they view their staff as a replaceable warm body whose sole purpose in living is to generate them money.

I agree with rwik123, get the stick out of your *** and realize that this is a good thing, and any expenses that were occurred were offset by the amount of positive public relations that it generated.  

and it is the fact that some people who work in EMS throw a hissy fit about positive things that other agencies do like this are why people don't consider EMS to be a real professions.  this is the epitome of pettiness and someone trying to make mountains out of molehills


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## medic417 (Aug 19, 2012)

How is using a tax payer dollar for personal gain great PR?  This is crap.  And drparasite don't start personal attacks to try and justify your opinion.  If you and others are allowed to express your opinions then so are those of us that feel just a strongly the opposite direction.  

Really a ladder in the air doesn't delay response?  Horse crap.  Several minutes would be lost in response if that piece of equipment were needed.


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## Veneficus (Aug 19, 2012)

medic417 said:


> Really a ladder in the air doesn't delay response?  Horse crap.  Several minutes would be lost in response if that piece of equipment were needed.



I would call this speculation.

Does it take longer to put a power ladder back compared to making sure dinner is off the stove, changing out of work out cloths into a duty uniform, going to the restroom, or just taking a minute to get up off the couch?

Does the apparatus not being at the station make a significant difference in response time compared to SSM?

Plus I saw not only the ladder co, but an engine there too. Anyone who has spent anytime in a large urban department knows that certain companies work harder...uh, I mean, get more calls than others...

Obviously clearing an entire station for a PR event means the station is not exactly busy.

It might even be the official or unofficial designated PR station. (Everyone knows larger organizations have "those" stations that they always put in front of the camera.)

Throughout my career I was usually with the shift, unit, or station that was designated "the most capable and hardcore badasses that under no circumstance are ever placed in front of a camera, reporter, or public gathering event unless absolutely involved in an emergency response there.

Every department, public or private, has its poster children for stuff like this. 

You think myself and my collegues didn't laugh everytime an organization we were with didn't wind up in some publication or news clip featuring the organization at a station that might run 3 calls a day if they were busy and never showed or even admitted to "the 'hood units?"

Somebody has to run calls and somebody has to polish the trucks twice a day to look pretty for the cameras. 

If EMS "wasted" as much money as the fire service in PR, perhaps it wouldn't be in the mess that it is in?


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## DrParasite (Aug 19, 2012)

medic417 said:


> How is using a tax payer dollar for personal gain great PR?  This is crap.


you are really going to scream fraud and waste on a once in a lifetime (for the firefighter) event?

ok, fine, how about this: were any runs delayed?  if so, I'm sure the news would have jumped on it.  were any lives lost?  if so, I'm sure the news would have jumped on it.  

outside of a few on here (and i'm sure some more anonymous voices on the web), how many people actually think this was a waste?  now compare that to how many people smiled when they saw the clip, thought it was awesome and a very memorable way for this firefighter to propose, or at least something that doesn't warrant the moral outrage that some are claiming it is.  want to bet it's a 1:10 ratio?  maybe even 1:100?  

but your right, this is a major crisis, and people should be disciplined for their action and role in this scandal.  we should call it "proposal gate!!!"


medic417 said:


> And drparasite don't start personal attacks to try and justify your opinion.  If you and others are allowed to express your opinions then so are those of us that feel just a strongly the opposite direction.


I'm sorry for the personal attack.  maybe the terms "too tightly wound," "need to focus on real issues instead of imaginary ones," or "someone who has too much free time on their hands and is jealous that they didn't think of it first" would be better?  

You're right, you are entitled to express your opinion.  I happen to think you are wrong, as do most rational people on here, but you are still entitled to feel the way you do.


medic417 said:


> Really a ladder in the air doesn't delay response?  Horse crap.  Several minutes would be lost in response if that piece of equipment were needed.


and I'm sure the ladder is never detailed to schools for public education, demos for dog and pony shoes, training at the academy, nor is the ladder joints never lubricated by the crew, nor taken to the city mechanic for minor maintenance while still in service.  

again, you are making a big issue of something when no issue exists.





Veneficus said:


> If EMS "wasted" as much money as the fire service in PR, perhaps it wouldn't be in the mess that it is in?


quoted for both truth and accuracy.  

Plus we wouldn't have to beg for money, staffing or support from the public, and we could live on just one job and have enough staffing and equipment to do our job right.


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## JakeEMTP (Aug 19, 2012)

Veneficus said:


> I would call this speculation.
> 
> Does it take longer to put a power ladder back compared to making sure dinner is off the stove, changing out of work out cloths into a duty uniform, going to the restroom, or just taking a minute to get up off the couch?



To do it correctly and safely, absolutely.  Get in a hurry, miss a step and things happen that seriously damage the truck and possibly cause harm to anyone close to it.


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## Veneficus (Aug 19, 2012)

JakeEMTP said:


> To do it correctly and safely, absolutely.  Get in a hurry, miss a step and things happen that seriously damage the truck and possibly cause harm to anyone close to it.



You should work with some of the truckies I have had the honor of working with.

2-3 minutes topps. (assuming the ladder was fully extended.)

edit: including the outriggers, foot plates, and wheel chocks.


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## Jon (Aug 19, 2012)

Hey gang - let's tone it down. I don't want to need to lock this thread.


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## Joe (Aug 19, 2012)

Veneficus said:


> You should work with some of the truckies I have had the honor of working with.
> 
> 2-3 minutes topps. (assuming the ladder was fully extended.)
> 
> edit: including the outriggers, foot plates, and wheel chocks.



This! 

Unrelated to quote: In my system the truck(quint,ladder,whatever you want to call it) is very rarely first up for a medical aid. Usually the engine amd patrol take the response. Never been a problem around here with the truck missing a call


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## NYMedic828 (Aug 19, 2012)

Some of the people in this thread are the reason the country sucks.

Lighten up and stop ruining life for the rest of us.

It probably takes me 3 minutes tops to put the ladder away with one other guy...

And odds are our response will be INCREASED because we are all in the truck already ready to go after stowing the ladder.


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## DesertMedic66 (Aug 19, 2012)

medic417 said:


> How is using a tax payer dollar for personal gain great PR?



Well they did get on the Internet because of it and are receiving attention (not just by us). So I'm gonna call it a successful PR event.


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## NYMedic828 (Aug 19, 2012)

This is what I have concluded about some people in this thread.


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## JakeEMTP (Aug 19, 2012)

Joe said:


> This!
> 
> Unrelated to quote: In my system the truck(quint,ladder,whatever you want to call it) is very rarely first up for a medical aid. Usually the engine amd patrol take the response. Never been a problem around here with the truck missing a call



There are ALS Ladders but in a fire they are really nice to have rolling as quickly as possible.  

While it is possible to get a ladder down and truck moving somewhat quickly, what happens if someone is hurt on some personal errand? Do you really want the taxpayers to be responsible for paying for something that was a personal use fo the truck for the next 40 years?


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## Joe (Aug 19, 2012)

Answer this question as truthfully as possible... have you ever performed a personal errand while on duty in a company vehicle? What do you do in between runs? Do you answer personal calls during down time? How long have you been in ems on the streets?


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## Handsome Robb (Aug 20, 2012)

Rabble rabble rabble.

I asks this again. How is it any different than them putting the stick away real quickly to respond if they are at a PR event?

There's a reason they can put the ladder away quickly and safely, it's because they practice. I know a lot of people don't like fire but when it comes down to it watching a good department work is like watching a well oiled machine. They are damn good at their job.


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## Tigger (Aug 20, 2012)

NYMedic828 said:


> This is what I have concluded about some people in this thread.



Quoted for truth. Making mountains of molehills. I've got zero issue with this. They flew the stick up to a window, a realistic and important training scenario. Whatever happens after that, I could care less. Plus the new fiance is a dime!:wub: I happen to like cops...


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## johnrsemt (Aug 20, 2012)

The dept I used to work for would go out an put the ladders up against buildings that they respond to in their area.   Better than driving out of the area to go down to the training tower.    Training tower had no power lines or carports or parked cars.

   We went down to an office complex and they drafted out of the lakes, threw water everywhere, (the ducks loved it, and so did the office workers).    

   I would rather have fire crews "waste" time learning how to put up the ladder at an apartment complex that has carports and parked cars that coming to a fire and taking 20 minutes to the get truck positioned right to put the tower up to the 3rd or 4th floor to get somone out of the window with the lower apartments on fire.      

   When people would ask what we were doing we told them;   no one got upset and the city/county didn't think it was a waste of manpower or money


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## johnrsemt (Aug 20, 2012)

and how is it a waste of money:    the crews get paid to sit on station or to train at the training grounds or train on real buildings.
  Fuel is the same to train on real buildings in your area,  or drive farther to train at the tower


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## medic417 (Aug 20, 2012)

http://www.firerescue1.com/apparatu...le-blamed-for-ladder-accident-that-injured-5/

Perhaps if they hadn't been using it like a toy and only used it for doing its intended job it wouldn't have broke and people wouldn't have been injured.  Things fatigue with use and all these "pr" events including asking someone to marry you helps lead to equipment failure.


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## DPM (Aug 20, 2012)

medic417 said:


> http://www.firerescue1.com/apparatu...le-blamed-for-ladder-accident-that-injured-5/
> 
> Perhaps if they hadn't been using it like a toy and only used it for doing its intended job it wouldn't have broke and people wouldn't have been injured.  Things fatigue with use and all these "pr" events including asking someone to marry you helps lead to equipment failure.



Your article even says that it was a freak accident, happening only a handful of times in 35 years... So what's the point? If the cable was going to fail then it was going to fail. Whether it happens getting a cat out of a tree or at an even is irrelevant.


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## medic417 (Aug 20, 2012)

DPM said:


> Your article even says that it was a freak accident, happening only a handful of times in 35 years... So what's the point? If the cable was going to fail then it was going to fail. Whether it happens getting a cat out of a tree or at an even is irrelevant.



So whats the point of you becoming a Paramedic.  By your logic a patients gonna die no mater what you do as it's just gonna just because it's fate, destiny.  Yes you logic is flawed.  Repeated use and misuse may have led to the fatigue.  Just like you may have the ability as a Paramedic to stop a person from dieing.


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## DPM (Aug 20, 2012)

medic417 said:


> So whats the point of you becoming a Paramedic.  By your logic a patients gonna die no mater what you do as it's just gonna just because it's fate, destiny.  Yes you logic is flawed.  Repeated use and misuse may have led to the fatigue.  Just like you may have the ability as a Paramedic to stop a person from dieing.



I went into healthcare because people WILL get sick. The cables on tower trucks don't routinely snap... Your argument doesn't make sense.


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## VFlutter (Aug 20, 2012)

medic417 said:


> So whats the point of you becoming a Paramedic.  By your logic a patients gonna die no mater what you do as it's just gonna just because it's fate, destiny.  Yes you logic is flawed.  Repeated use and misuse may have led to the fatigue.  Just like you may have the ability as a Paramedic to stop a person from dieing.



Who kicked your dog this morning?


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## medic417 (Aug 20, 2012)

DPM said:


> I went into healthcare because people WILL get sick. The cables on tower trucks don't routinely snap... Your argument doesn't make sense.



I used your arguement thus you are saying your comment does not make sense.


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## Handsome Robb (Aug 20, 2012)

ChaseZ33 said:


> Who kicked your dog this morning?



Win. 

Medic417 you're entitled to you're opinion. It's pretty obvious not many agree with it. Ya'll can yell until you are blue in the face but it doesn't matter because it already happened, they can't take it back and I have heard anything about repercussions coming from it so I'd say the city officials you say will be so angry really aren't that angry...


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## DPM (Aug 20, 2012)

medic417 said:


> I used your arguement thus you are saying your comment does not make sense.



No, you created a straw man and it doesn't make sense. You cannot use a single instance of equipment failure to show that using the ladder truck to propose was inappropriate. Just like you can't argue that if everyone's going to die then I shouldn't be a medic. 

Can we keep this on thread? You're turning this into a willy waving contest.


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## Martyn (Aug 20, 2012)

nvrob said:


> training exercise. Killed two birds with one stone, they still have to go through the steps to through the tower ladder.
> 
> Get over it. You would all hate me then because i waste money every time i have a third rider by using expendable supplies during our down time for education.
> 
> You want to save money? How about cut back on the thousands of miles fire departments put on their trucks driving to medical calls where they aren't needed instead of complaining about a single isolated event?


 

 +1.


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## Tigger (Aug 20, 2012)

medic417 said:


> http://www.firerescue1.com/apparatu...le-blamed-for-ladder-accident-that-injured-5/
> 
> Perhaps if they hadn't been using it like a toy and only used it for doing its intended job it wouldn't have broke and people wouldn't have been injured.  Things fatigue with use and all these "pr" events including asking someone to marry you helps lead to equipment failure.



Perhaps perhaps perhaps. This has to be one of the more absurd arguments I have seen posted on this site. Perhaps if they had used during a training operation the cable would have snapped, would you have cared then? After all it wouldn't be a "toy" then.

Things fatigue with use yes, but it is flat out dumb not to use your equipment so as to increase it's lifespan. Not to mention that fire apparatus (and most things emergency service) are designed to take abuse that most cannot dish out. Do you not unzip the first-in bag to check it's contents because you might wear out the zipper? 

But alas, I know I am arguing with a wall.


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## leoemt (Aug 21, 2012)

medic417 said:


> How is using a tax payer dollar for personal gain great PR?  This is crap.  And drparasite don't start personal attacks to try and justify your opinion.  If you and others are allowed to express your opinions then so are those of us that feel just a strongly the opposite direction.
> 
> Really a ladder in the air doesn't delay response?  Horse crap.  Several minutes would be lost in response if that piece of equipment were needed.




I was working a crash back in my LEO days and we wanted to get some Ariel shots of the scene. We requested the neighboring jurisdiction's ladder truck. 

I was 100 feet up in the air strapped in snapping photos when the truck got a job. 

It took me longer to climb down than it did them to get geared up and ready. That ladder was down and stabilizer jacks stowed by the time i went from the control area to the ground. 

The fact the truck was deployed is a moot point. Those truck can be put back in minutes, maybe even seconds. Hydraulics are a wonderful thing. 

Here is a idea, lets not do anymore PR. Cops can stop doing community policing, firefighters will keep the engines in the bay, and EMTs won't let kids play in the ambulance. 

I suppose you think parking a ambulance at a career day or safety fair is a waste of money. Oh, how about the fire trucks that participate in a parade? Lets stop that too. God forbid we show off the equipment that the taxpayers bought us. 

You and the OP are missing a point. Yes, this was a marriage proposal but it is being reported by the news. How many times has the news gotten the facts straight? Not many. 

I would be willing to bet that this took place at a city building and coincided with official department training. Just because he proposed doesn't mean that was the reason the truck was there to begin with. 

Our fire department would routinely practice at office buildings and industrial buildings. Nothing unusual about that. Yes, that would include deploying a ladder and practicing high rise tactics. 

The bottom line is this: the truck was still emergency capable, no money was spent, the crew got practice with the ladder, and it made for a good story. 

For once its nice seeing a news story that doesn't involve murder, rape, violence, or whinny politicians acting like school girls.


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## the_negro_puppy (Aug 21, 2012)

The female officer?


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## medic417 (Aug 21, 2012)

NVRob said:


> Win.
> 
> Medic417 you're entitled to you're opinion. It's pretty obvious not many agree with it. Ya'll can yell until you are blue in the face but it doesn't matter because it already happened, they can't take it back and I have heard anything about repercussions coming from it so I'd say the city officials you say will be so angry really aren't that angry...



I said tax payers would be upset if they understood how much money was wasted.


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## nocoderob (Aug 21, 2012)

Meh, don't see what the big deal is. I am sure more money is wasted every year going to dozens of schools and handing out plastic fire helmets, coloring books, sticker books, etc. The only thing I can see wasted here is some fuel.


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## DPM (Aug 21, 2012)

medic417 said:


> I said tax payers would be upset if they understood how much money was wasted.



The point everyone else is making is that the money isn't being wasted.... The company has a real life opportunity to throw some ladders in their district, while also getting their dept and local FD in the media eye. No salary or equipment upkeep costs were incurred, I don't see the issue.


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## nocoderob (Aug 21, 2012)

medic417 said:


> I said tax payers would be upset if they understood how much money was wasted.



So, how much _was_ wasted?


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## med51fl (Aug 21, 2012)

This thread is still going? Good grief! :blink:


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## ShannahQuilts (Aug 21, 2012)

JakeEMTP said:


> To do it correctly and safely, absolutely.  Get in a hurry, miss a step and things happen that seriously damage the truck and possibly cause harm to anyone close to it.



To make sure that doesn't happen, I would advise more practice.  Oh, I guess that this proposal, in addition to being great PR, *was* practice.  Well, so do we want people to be more capable of using the ladder correctly and safely, or not?

Honestly, you remind me of the manager who used to get peeved when someone would take an extra cup of coffee at HP.  

Training needs to be done.  If training can happen in a fun and memorable way, that is not "wasting" resources any more than it is if some sleepy programmer grabs an extra cup of (free) coffee.

If you're really worried about government spending, I'd suggest learning more about the budget and where the money actually goes.  I think you're going to find a lot more fat elsewhere.


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