# EMT student forced to drop class



## ffemt8978 (Oct 1, 2011)

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2011/09/29/college-says-student-with-epilepsy-disruptive/


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## Sasha (Oct 1, 2011)

How did she plan on being an emt with epilepsy?

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## JPINFV (Oct 1, 2011)

Sasha said:


> How did she plan on being an emt with epilepsy?
> 
> Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk



Provided it's properly controlled, I don't necessarily see any more problem than someone who has IDDM. 

Besides, is it too much to ask for people to give her a fair shake?


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## Shishkabob (Oct 1, 2011)

Sasha said:


> How did she plan on being an emt with epilepsy?



Tech / doctors office / stand by events / fairs and amusement parks, etc etc


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## Sasha (Oct 1, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> Provided it's properly controlled, I don't necessarily see any more problem than someone who has IDDM.
> 
> Besides, is it too much to ask for people to give her a fair shake?



If she had a seizure in class i wouldnt call it properly controlled.

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## Shishkabob (Oct 1, 2011)

Sasha said:


> If she had a seizure in class i wouldnt call it properly controlled.
> 
> Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk



If it was new onset, I'd sure hope that it wasn't controlled beforehand... otherwise we'd have a psychic on our hands and that's just scary.


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## Martyn (Oct 1, 2011)

Unfortunately this also happened to someone in my class. She also had a few other health problems at the time and she agreed to drop out. Last I saw of her she was doing well in the CNA classes though.


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## usafmedic45 (Oct 1, 2011)

Linuss said:


> If it was new onset, I'd sure hope that it wasn't controlled beforehand... otherwise we'd have a psychic on our hands and that's just scary.



If it wasn't properly controlled, I'd boot her from the program pending proof of establishment of better control.  If it was new onset, I'd boot her from the program pending determination of origin of the seizures and establishment of successful anticonvulsant therapy.


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## Fish (Oct 1, 2011)

I do not know the legalities behind this, just my opinion is this: The student should have been allowed to get her Cert. She does not have to work on an Ambulance with her Cert. that being said, she should never be allowed to work on an Ambulance where she is the Driver.


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## usafmedic45 (Oct 1, 2011)

Fish said:


> I do not know the legalities behind this, just my opinion is this: The student should have been allowed to get her Cert.



Until her medical status is more firmly ascertained, no one can say that for certain.  Truth be told, none of us on this forum will probably ever have sufficient information to make that judgment.


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## JPINFV (Oct 1, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> Truth be told, none of us on this forum will probably ever have sufficient information to make that judgment.



That won't stop us from shaking our fists or our heads or...


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## usafmedic45 (Oct 1, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> That won't stop us from shaking our fists or our heads or...



It stops me.  I think the school did the right thing.  I had students removed or otherwise witnessed the removal of students for less serious issues than this one.


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## JPINFV (Oct 1, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> It stops me.  I think the school did the right thing.  I had students removed or otherwise witnessed the removal of students for less serious issues than this one.



Seizure... shaking... sigh.


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## AlphaButch (Oct 1, 2011)

According to the article; She was asked to drop the class. It doesn't have wether the school dropped her or _forced_ her out.

IMO, a good instructor would have discussed dropping the class and if possible, offering a refund (if it's new onset). For the following reasons;

Having a disability that causes seizures can be a safety issue and may affect her future employment. Morality/legality withstanding, it's a fact.

It may also keep her from completing the class if there are clinicals required (depending on the contract/agency that any clinicals would be available for).

If there were no problems in regards to completing the clinicals, then I would have no issue with the student finishing the course; after we had discussed the effects of her disability and the realities of the job. 

As an employer, I would have to consult my legal team before hiring her if the only opening I had was on a truck. This would be to ensure I would be properly covered for potential liability and make sure I was in compliance with all the various agencies. I wouldn't have any concern if she were filling a dispatch, coordinator, or community service position.

If it was not a new onset, I'd have to consider alot more information (that wasn't in the article) in regards to having her finish the class.


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## usafmedic45 (Oct 1, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> Seizure... shaking... sigh.



*facepalm*  Sorry for missing that one.


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## Aidey (Oct 1, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> If it wasn't properly controlled, I'd boot her from the program pending proof of establishment of better control.  If it was new onset, I'd boot her from the program pending determination of origin of the seizures and establishment of successful anticonvulsant therapy.



I agree completely. ADA or not people with uncontrolled health problems can pose a serious risk. Many, if not all states place restrictions on the ability to get a driver's license if you have an uncontrolled medical condition. I don't see it being any different. 



AlphaButch said:


> According to the article; She was asked to drop the class. It doesn't have wether the school dropped her or _forced_ her out.
> 
> IMO, a good instructor would have discussed dropping the class and if possible, offering a refund (if it's new onset). For the following reasons;
> 
> ...



I doubt she would be suing if she agreed to drop the class. The clinicals issue is what I thought of also. The school would be obligated to inform their clinical sites that she has an uncontrolled seizure disorder and I doubt any of them would want to take her. 



usafmedic45 said:


> *facepalm*  Sorry for missing that one.



I missed it too...


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## abckidsmom (Oct 1, 2011)

Standard for the DMV in VA is that your license is suspended for medical reasons for one year from the date of your last seizure.  

I think that's a reasonable interval to demonstrate proper medical control of the seizures.


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## usafmedic45 (Oct 1, 2011)

abckidsmom said:


> Standard for the DMV in VA is that your license is suspended for medical reasons for one year from the date of your last seizure.
> 
> I think that's a reasonable interval to demonstrate proper medical control of the seizures.



It pretty much permanently disqualifies you as a pilot so it could be worse.


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## DrParasite (Oct 4, 2011)

Aidey said:


> Many, if not all states place restrictions on the ability to get a driver's license if you have an uncontrolled medical condition. I don't see it being any different....I doubt she would be suing if she agreed to drop the class.


so you can ban someone from having a driver's license, but banning them from becoming an EMT is discrimination?  hope she loses the cases and has to pay the defendants attorney's fees.


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## systemet (Oct 4, 2011)

This seems a little silly.

* If she really was asked to drop the class because the seizure activity was distracting, then it seems discriminatory.  I would hope whoever running the program didn't actually do this -- if they did, they probably deserve what's coming.

* If they told her she'd be unable to participate in evolutions where she'd be carrying other patients, or that the clinical sites were unable to accept a student with a recent seizure history, then this is a little different.

It seems like the reasonable thing to do, would be to allow her to complete the didactic portion of training, consult with practicum providers, and allow them to make the decision as to whether they want her as a student.  It seems a little more fair, and prone to a little less legal exposure.

I don't think it's the training institute's responsibility to disqualify people because of medical conditions, unless those medical conditions pose a safety or logistical issue to delivery of the parts of the course provided by the training institute.

There's other responsible agencies.  I would think this responsibility rests more heavily on the agency that issues professional driver's licences, the examining physician for the driving medical, the state licensing board, and the potential future employer, and their fleet safety and OH&S people.

Without knowing the full story, I wonder if this was just handled badly?  Perhaps now the student is justifiably upset, and has decided to litigate?


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## Epi-do (Oct 4, 2011)

As we all know, there's a lot of information missing from this article for any of us to pass judgement on the situation.  As for a provider with seizures, we have one at the fire department I currently work at.  He did have a seizure while on the job, had the dosage of his medication adjusted after evaluation by his healthcare provider, was unable to drive for 6 months, and is now back to fully functioning as a paramedic, with no restrictions.  We used to work together at a private service, and to my knowledge, this is the only seizure he has had in the 6-7 years I have known him.

I don't think having a seizure disorder should automatically disqualify you from being an EMT or medic.  If it is truly uncontrolled, that is one thing.  For all we know, this girl may be on meds, could have had a breakthrough seizure, did what was needed to be done to readjust her dosage, and now is fine again.  I'll admit, I would have a hard time having her drive me and a patient from point A to point B, but there are plenty of other options available without putting her behind the wheel of an ambulance.


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## 18G (Oct 4, 2011)

The information is very limited but sounds insensitive and wrong to even ask her to withdraw. Why not suggest not continuing in program unless okayed by a neurologist? 
And once released pick up where she left off. 

She should be allowed to obtain the knowledge.  An employer will decide if she can work.  There are a lot of settings she could work outside an ambulance too.


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## mycrofft (Oct 5, 2011)

*Parse it. Clear ADA violation and breach of contract issue.*

ADA protects you from being discriminated-against due to a *perception on the part of your employer, instructor, etc.*, that your medical or psychological condition disqualifies you from participation or competition. When the contract (enrollment and acceptance papers) were made, if she did not falsely apply by concealing her condition, she has met the contract and if she hangs in, they need to let her continue the class unless they can prove to do so is harmful to her.

What realistic potential harm to the student is there from being in the classroom from having seizure disorder? (Not being on an ambulance). Do they have a school-wide ban on people with seizure disorder? Would the students be safer if they were in line at McDonald's, or working at McDonald's, or even at home (in the shower?). 

She should consider issues revolving about flashing lights, fatigue, being able to take her meds on time, driving, and any other triggers for her condition before she works as a field EMS person, but her knowledge from the class could be of use working as a dispatcher, and maybe as an attendant, or more.

Anyone want to come out of the closet who has seizure disorder and works in EMS? Start an anonymous poll?


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## bigbaldguy (Oct 5, 2011)

Worst case scenario she works 3rd on a volley basis and doesn't drive. Se does this for a year then teaches.There's no reason she shouldn't be allowed to finish the program.


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## abckidsmom (Oct 5, 2011)

mycrofft said:


> Anyone want to come out of the closet who has seizure disorder and works in EMS? Start an anonymous poll?



My dad had a seizure disorder and worked in EMS, but his doctor would only clear him for duty when he was also cleared to drive.  So every time he had a seizure, it was a year to that date till he got back in business.  He only had a handful of rough, uncontrolled times with multiple seizures, and after that they were controlled completely with meds.  

He was a volunteer, and his full time job was in a comm center.  His doc also didn't allow him to be alone on the phones for a year after a seizure.  

It sucks, but it is what it is.  I was forced onto maternity leave at only 17 weeks pregnant because of an insulinoma on my placenta.  Seems they didn't want a dispatcher whose blood glucose would randomly plummet.


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## mycrofft (Oct 6, 2011)

*Job versus school*

No legal reason she can be excluded from the school unless she nullified the contract by evasion. If they advertised that the class led to employment, it is between her and the employers to work that out.


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## DrParasite (Oct 6, 2011)

18G said:


> The information is very limited but sounds insensitive and wrong to even ask her to withdraw. Why not suggest not continuing in program unless okayed by a neurologist?
> And once released pick up where she left off.


awesome idea, however most EMT classes I am familiar with require 100% attendance rates.  so if it takes her two weeks to get the appointment and be cleared by her neurologist, that's 4 classes she missed (two nights a week).  So even if she was permitted to pick up where she left off, she is still 4 classes behind everyone, and if she doesn't have that 100% attendance rate, she doesn't meet the requirements to take the state test.

Once her seizures are under control, and her medication administered and adjusted and seizure free for a year, than she should feel free to retake the course.





abckidsmom said:


> Seems they didn't want a dispatcher whose blood glucose would randomly plummet.


hmmm, imagine that.  They don't want an employee working whose sugar randomly plummets, resulting in additional resources being required to treat said life threatening medical emergency.  Company sounds like a bunch of discriminatory people

Question: if a person with a known seizure disorder is carrying your Grandma or Grandpa down the stairs while she or he is having chest pains, and midway down the stairs, suffers a seizure, results in YOUR grandparent suffering serious injury, will you be filing a lawsuit against the ambulance service?  and would the agency be liable for allowing this type of situation to occur, knowing the EMT/Paramedic has a seizure disorder?


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## abckidsmom (Oct 6, 2011)

I was being sarcastic...sorry that didn't translate.  I think it's smart to exclude people who can't count on their neurological status from being responsible for other people's emergencies.


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## systemet (Oct 6, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> awesome idea, however most EMT classes I am familiar with require 100% attendance rates.  so if it takes her two weeks to get the appointment and be cleared by her neurologist, that's 4 classes she missed (two nights a week).  So even if she was permitted to pick up where she left off, she is still 4 classes behind everyone, and if she doesn't have that 100% attendance rate, she doesn't meet the requirements to take the state test.



Isn't this assuming a lot about the course she's taking and its mode of delivery?  I've never taken a US EMT.B course, but are they always offered in the evenings?  Is getting cleared by the neurologist really necessary to sit in class and absorb didactic material?  Is 100% attendance really necessary?  

Granted if she doesn't meet the requirements she shouldn't test, but surely any reputable educational institute has a mechanism to compensate for unexpected absences due to emergent health problems or family crises?

Perhaps she has to wait until the next course offering to complete the required class?  Would that be that bad?  




> Once her seizures are under control, and her medication administered and adjusted and seizure free for a year, than she should feel free to retake the course.hmmm, imagine that.  They don't want an employee working whose sugar randomly plummets, resulting in additional resources being required to treat said life threatening medical emergency.  Company sounds like a bunch of discriminatory people



Why don't you think she should be allowed to take the course?  I've worked with partners who've had hearing aids, who've been insulin-dependent diabetics, HCV+, pregnant, have controlled seizure disorders, have asthma, etc.  Their disabilities didn't prevent them from helping people.



> Question: if a person with a known seizure disorder is carrying your Grandma or Grandpa down the stairs while she or he is having chest pains, and midway down the stairs, suffers a seizure, results in YOUR grandparent suffering serious injury, will you be filing a lawsuit against the ambulance service?



I don't know.  Maybe.  I like to think I'd realise that that person why trying to help my family member, and be a little bigger than to attempt to rip a bag full of money out of the ambulance service.

But given disability legislation, are they going to be liable if they show they've followed accepted practice?  A history of epilepsy, if controlled, shouldn't stop someone from being an EMT or paramedic.

Right now her epilepsy isn't well enough controlled to drive, right?  But if it is in a year, would there be an issue with her working in EMS?



> and would the agency be liable for allowing this type of situation to occur, knowing the EMT/Paramedic has a seizure disorder?



Not a lawyer, but given the lower burden of proof in a civil case, and the prevalence of civil suits in the US, maybe the ambulance service could be successfully sued for damages.  

At some point though, the right of the disabled individual not to have arbitrary restrictions placed on their freedoms has to be balanced against the risk of their disability suddenly rendering them unable to perform their duties.

Anywhere I've lived, this has been spelled out pretty clearly in driver's licensing for heavy vehicles, commercial traffic and professional drivers.


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## Sasha (Oct 6, 2011)

The 100% attendance is about meeting hourly requirements. When i went to emt and medic we could miss up to two but they had to be made up. We also had to make up holidays when the school was closed.

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## 18G (Oct 6, 2011)

Some EMT programs require a few clinical hours in an ED or on an ambulance. That's the only reason I said about being cleared first. If that is not a requirement than I too see no reason why she can't go back to class.


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## katgrl2003 (Oct 6, 2011)

18G said:


> Some EMT programs require a few clinical hours in an ED or on an ambulance. That's the only reason I said about being cleared first. If that is not a requirement than I too see no reason why she can't go back to class.



REDACTED (Logged into wrong account, again!)


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## usafmedic45 (Oct 6, 2011)

18G said:


> Some EMT programs require a few clinical hours in an ED or on an ambulance. That's the only reason I said about being cleared first. If that is not a requirement than I too see no reason why she can't go back to class.


No program should be allowed to exist that doesn't require ED AND ambulance hours.  Most EMS programs require them.


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## 18G (Oct 6, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> No program should be allowed to exist that doesn't require ED AND ambulance hours.  Most EMS programs require them.



When I first took my EMT-Mast course in PA in 1994, we were required to complete 10hrs of ED time. For some reason years later they took that requirement away and no clinical time was required for Basic. 

I heard something that it is supposed to be coming back which I think is one of the requirements under the new national standards of which PA is falling in line with.

I agree. It should be a requirement.


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## katgrl2003 (Oct 6, 2011)

katgrl2003 said:


> REDACTED (Logged into wrong account, again!)



Dang it USAF, check next time!


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## usafmedic45 (Oct 6, 2011)

katgrl2003 said:


> Dang it USAF, check next time!



Yes dear. LOL


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## mycrofft (Oct 6, 2011)

*We had a mandatory 100% attendance class.*

The first student who wouldn't back down broke it. She had staph food poisoning or some such. She was able to complete all the assignments, and it was decided that reviewing other student's notes etc was a "_*reasonable accommodation"*_.

As for the clinical sidebar, I think a whole semester clinical would be better, and it needs to be mandatory for first responders as well. Anything higher than basic first aid.


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## smilingblueeyes (Oct 7, 2011)

This kind of news kind of upsets me as I am both a type 1 diabetic and seizure patient. Both conditions are under control, I work full time and go to school full time with only an occasional problem. 

She should have been able to get her certification, or at least had a chance to put everything on hold for her school work till she got a chance to go to see her doctor.

The episode was to distracting? I can see that, but is there anything that is not distracting? (may need to reword this whole thing later, after I get sleep)


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## DrParasite (Oct 8, 2011)

systemet said:


> Isn't this assuming a lot about the course she's taking and its mode of delivery?  I've never taken a US EMT.B course, but are they always offered in the evenings?  Is getting cleared by the neurologist really necessary to sit in class and absorb didactic material?  Is 100% attendance really necessary?


evenings, days, weekends only, they all depend on how your course is scheduled.

yes, 100% attendance is really necessary, because all the course hours are documented.   If the program has a way to make up class before hand, great,  then she should follow those rules (whatever they are).  But she knew the rules coming in.


systemet said:


> Granted if she doesn't meet the requirements she shouldn't test, but surely any reputable educational institute has a mechanism to compensate for unexpected absences due to emergent health problems or family crises?


 so you are agreeing with me, thank you. and I don't know what their mechanism was, but I would imagine she exceeded it.


systemet said:


> Perhaps she has to wait until the next course offering to complete the required class?  Would that be that bad?


absolutely, once it is documented that her seizures are under control.


systemet said:


> Why don't you think she should be allowed to take the course?  I've worked with partners who've had hearing aids, who've been insulin-dependent diabetics, HCV+, pregnant, have controlled seizure disorders, have asthma, etc.  Their disabilities didn't prevent them from helping people.


I never said she shouldn't be allowed to take the course.  what I said was:Once her seizures are under control, and her medication administered and adjusted and seizure free for a year, than she should feel free to retake the course.  Similarly, if someone is having an asthma attack every other class, and has to run out and hook herself up to a nebulizer for 15 minutes, I would suggest she do the same.

Once it is controlled, she is more than welcome take the course.  it's the uncontrolled problems, that prevent a person from completing the entire course, that I have a problem with.


smilingblueeyes said:


> This kind of news kind of upsets me as I am both a type 1 diabetic and seizure patient. Both conditions are under control, I work full time and go to school full time with only an occasional problem.
> 
> She should have been able to get her certification, or at least had a chance to put everything on hold for her school work till she got a chance to go to see her doctor.
> 
> The episode was to distracting? I can see that, but is there anything that is not distracting? (may need to reword this whole thing later, after I get sleep)


But there in lies the problem.  you have both conditions, AND THEY ARE UNDER CONTROL.  for this girl, they aren't. 

not only that, but I don't expect the entire world to be put on hold until she goes to a doctor.  let her go to the doctor, let her be put on medication, let her be seizure free for a year (since that is when the DMV says you are under control, and they are another state agency).  once the year passes, she can get her driver's license, and go back into an EMT program right where she left off.

Think of it this way.  Lets pass her, and give her an EMT card.  and 2 months later, she is on the ambulance, treating a patient, and has another seizure.  Now we have the original patient, and half the crew, with 1 EMT and one panicking family member having to deal with both patients.  now what?  

There is a reason the DMV won't give any seizure person a license for 12 months.


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## mycrofft (Oct 9, 2011)

*One seizure does not mean out of control, DMV notwithstanding.*

Also, certification does not confer employment.

If an employer wants to use the DMV standard then they can run all their applicants as though they were going to be drivers and find out.

The student and the school need to reach a rapprochment about what reasonable accommodation means in this case. Blowing her out for one seizure, without a pre-standing condition of enrollment providing for that action, is challengeable. If she did not miss unrepeatable lectures or exercises, and she can make up her place in class by extra study, most likely the reasonable thing is to let her try to finish it. HOWEVER, she takes the increased risk of failing.

ON the other-other hand, someone who has a breakthrough seizure should not resume risky activities until her/his doctor says it is ok.


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