# EMT Disarms Patient



## Simusid (Jun 13, 2010)

*EMTs threatened by armed Exeter man they try to help*



> EXETER, R.I. -- A rescue crew responded to the home of a man going into diabetic shock Friday morning, but found themselves looking into the muzzle of a pistol as the man threatened to kill them, say the state police.
> 
> One of the EMTs, Robert Jencks, managed to grab the gun away from McKiernan and gave it to the other EMT, who ran out of the house with it and called 911, Delaney said.


http://newsblog.projo.com/2010/06/emts-threatened-by-armed-exete.html

My wife asked me "what would you have done?"   I wasn't there of course, so I can't say for sure what I would do.  I do think that at least one or two things went wrong to contribute to this.   This is obviously not a safe scene, maybe it was at first, and maybe there was no cop on scene (99% of my calls, a cop gets there first or shortly after) but my first thought was, why was the patient allowed to go unaccompanied into another room?

Question:   Would you ever let a patient leave your sight?


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## TransportJockey (Jun 13, 2010)

A pt with AMS 2* to hypoglycemia... leaving my sight ain't gonna happen.  Actually any patient who is AMS one of the crew members is gonna stay with them... but then again on AMS calls I've gone on we've always had cops on scene with us


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## Stephanie. (Jun 13, 2010)

Wow. I can't believe that they EMTs let him walk away, especially with AMS. Was this a 911 crew, or maybe it was a frequent flyer and these EMTs felt comfortable with this patient. Wow, just wow.

But I am sure anyone that has worked in EMS has experienced a diabetic emergency patient, I can say they will whip your :censored:

Glad they are okay.


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## atropine (Jun 13, 2010)

Wheres the cops?, maybe Iam spoiled since we get LAPD, or LACoSD on 99.9 percent of our calls.


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## Stephanie. (Jun 13, 2010)

I have never once had pd show up on a diabetic emergency, unless requested. Now I'm sure if dispatch sent it out as an AMS, we would have had some assistance.


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## medichopeful (Jun 13, 2010)

Simusid said:


> Question:   Would you ever let a patient leave your sight?



No.  Somebody is going to be with them all the time, whether it be me or a coworker.


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## Sam Adams (Jun 13, 2010)

atropine said:


> Wheres the cops?, maybe Iam spoiled since we get LAPD, or LACoSD on 99.9 percent of our calls.



I can't begin to comprehend the police being on that percentage of calls. We're lucky if they're dispatched to 1/3 of our responses, let alone make it there.


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## spinnakr (Jun 13, 2010)

I'm with everyone else:  there was a MASSIVE lapse of judgment when the patient was allowed to leave unsupervised.


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## nomofica (Jun 13, 2010)

I'd never let the patient leave my sight. At the same time, I wouldn't let my partner leave me in a house along with a man that just pointed a gun at me and threatened to pull the trigger. If he's bouncing, I'm bouncing. 

Glad neither of the EMTs are hurt, but things could have been managed a bit better. If they had known there was a previous altercation same day and my hypoglycemic patient is going to be AMS (when aren't they?), I'd have called for LEO assistance prior to arrival. Just to be the first to say (though not to insinuate): scene safety!


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## Aidey (Jun 13, 2010)

Stephanie. said:


> I have never once had pd show up on a diabetic emergency, unless requested.



This. 

PD is also never automatically dispatched to AMS calls where I work. 

I agree with everyone else about letting the pt leave your sight. If a patient wants to go somewhere, at least one person stays with them.


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## nomofica (Jun 13, 2010)

Aidey said:


> This.
> 
> PD is also never automatically dispatched to AMS calls where I work.
> 
> I agree with everyone else about letting the pt leave your sight. If a patient wants to go somewhere, at least one person stays with them.



In our area if there's ever notification of a previous altercation in the last little while PD will be dispatched to whatever we're called out for (regardless of type of medical/trauma emergency).


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## Sunny Fox (Jul 2, 2010)

Scary. I wouldn't let them leave my sight, not even just my safety but that of my patient. I prefer not to have to cover my *** anymore than necessary. Also, Police is sometimes a half hour away, on a good day, so we have to be more vigilant about those situations


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## EMSLaw (Jul 2, 2010)

I don't let patients out of my sight, either (well, my sight or that of another EMT on my crew).  But never say never.  If a patient got up and walked away from you, you might follow, but I doubt you're going to tackle them.  Those few seconds might be all it takes for them to retrieve a weapon. 

We're supposed to have police on every call.  Sometimes it happens that way.  Sometimes it don't.  And if I push the emergency button on my radio, they're supposed to ask me if I'm okay...  Outstanding.


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## firetender (Jul 2, 2010)

*Who's On First?*

Why would it NOT be plausible that all this unfolded in the time it takes a  ball going foul to be picked up and the runner getting thrown out at first base?

If so, then those medics responded appropriately, if not perfectly, moment to moment. THEY weren't the ones got hurt, were they?


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## Lone Star (Jul 3, 2010)

We don't know for fact that the patient left the room to get the weapon.  All we know for sure is that the responding crew walked into a scene and was looking down the 'wrong end' of a pistol in the wrong hands.

If the patient was allowed to leave the room to get the pistol, then shame on the responding crew for allowing it to happen!

Next question we have to ask is this:  How closely did the responding crew's uniforms look like police uniforms?  This is one reason I do not advocate private EMS crews pinning badges onto their shirts.

As far as one EMT staying inside with the patient, it would have never happened on MY crew.  Once the weapon was taken, then BOTH crew members leave the scene until law enforcement can secure it.  That's their job, let them do it!  Just because the visible weapon was secured, there's no guarantee that the homeowner/patient didn't have another one just as accessible.

As much as people want to bash the fire service, their common rule is "Two in/two out".  It was put in place for safety, and we would do well to remember that.

In EMT-B, we have 'scene safety/BSI' drilled into our heads time after time after time.  Do you think there's a REASON they do that?  There are far too many instances where a scene can 'go south' for us to become complacent in our duties.  A scene can change in a split second and someone is gonna get hurt!

I'm glad that the responding crew was able to get through this without injury, but let this be a wake up call to illustrate just how fast a 'normal call' can go bad.


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