# Do you think EMS should be paramilitary?



## medic417 (Jun 18, 2009)

So what do you think?  Should we try and be paramilitary or should we focus on being Pre Hospital Medical Professionals?  Do you feel paramilitary helps you be a better medical professional or do you feel it distracts?


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## hrmeeks (Jun 18, 2009)

I am gonna be out for a bit but i am  interested to see how this one goes


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## Shishkabob (Jun 18, 2009)

I wouldn't mind carrying flashbangs around everywhere.


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## Ridryder911 (Jun 18, 2009)

I honor those that chose to enter the military. I chose not to. Should respiratory therapist, public health nurses be paramilitary as well? Could you see home health or hospice nurses being such? Again, why should EMS? 

We are NOT public safety. We are NOT enforces of anything! Even the badge is ludicourous, as it has no authority at all. 

Should we be in shape to perform our job, should we demonstrate professional traits such as a sharp clean uniform, being organized, a definite yes. Do we have infrastructral ranks?... Yes, supervisors, FTO's, Directors, etc.. Should we stand at attention or have PT (who has the time on duty?) for inspections, or salute or have the hazing usually associated with such organizations? No! 

We should be medical professionals. My peers are just that. Peers. They are not my brothers, sisters, cousins, etc... When they get injured or die I mourn, but it is because of the individual not his/her job choice. Should we honor their service to EMS? Yes, but alike any other professional. 

Look at this way. The Oklahoma Highway Patrol (OHP) has one of the most Paramilitary Patrol Academies in the nation and models itself as a paramilitary organization. Is it working for them? ......

R/r 911


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## guardian528 (Jun 18, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> Look at this way. The Oklahoma Highway Patrol (OHP) has one of the most Paramilitary Patrol Academies in the nation and models itself as a paramilitary organization. Is it working for them? ......
> R/r 911



check and mate


hahahaha


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## Double-E (Jun 18, 2009)

just...um...to clarify...why would you even ask?  i mean, what sort of scenarios are you worried about that bring this to mind?

*curious*


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## Sasha (Jun 18, 2009)

Oh heck no.


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## TransportJockey (Jun 18, 2009)

Hell no. We are a medical field, having nothing to do with the military. If we want more respect from the medical community, that kind of bull:censored::censored::censored::censored: needs to stay with the fire service. It has no place in medicine, either paramilitary or the fire service.


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## Melclin (Jun 18, 2009)

I've often referred to EMS having militaristic similarities, and I think there's something to be learned from how the military handles certain things. Logistics for example. And perhaps labour allocation.

Also, on the education side of it, I think there should be a certain amount of thought put into how you prepare students for stress and emotional trauma. The army is well versed in such matters. Training people to apply complex theory in high stress, uncontrolled situations is what they do and any knowledge on that front might also be useful in EMS. 

Physical fitness is important for everyone, no harm in it being a requirement for the job, given that certain elements can be quite taxing.

But if you're actually referring to EMS _being_ paramilitary, then NO. Never and forever.


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## firecoins (Jun 18, 2009)

paramedics as paramilitary?  too many paras.


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## PapaBear434 (Jun 18, 2009)

This is one of the reasons I think we should definitely be a separate entity from fire services.  Police have criminals to fight, and firefighters have fires, chemicals, falling hazards, and how many other things that require a well organized system that works in a militaristic fashion.

We, on the other hand, are medical.  We have to deal with people in their most vulnerable of times.  We don't have to fight anything but the inevitable cold hand of death. 

Yes, there are certain situations where a hierarchy and structure make sense.  MCI's, fire standbys, possible airline or seafaring rescues...  that kind of stuff.  But by and large, having a bunch of protocol, saluting, and boot snapping just gets in the way and puts distance between us and those we are trying to help and put at ease.

I left the police department because I didn't like the distance between me and the public.  I don't want my new field to put me in the same spot.


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## PapaBear434 (Jun 18, 2009)

firecoins said:


> paramedics as paramilitary?  too many paras.



Don't forget the paragods.


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## JonTullos (Jun 18, 2009)

Well, some say the earliest form of EMS was soldiers being carried off the battlefield so one could use that as an argument for EMS being paramilitary.  As for me, I say absolutely not.  It's a medical profession, not a form of protection or enforcement so why would EMS need to be considered along the same lines as the Marines?


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## paramedicmike (Jun 19, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> I honor those that chose to enter the military. I chose not to. Should respiratory therapist, public health nurses be paramilitary as well? Could you see home health or hospice nurses being such? Again, why should EMS?
> 
> We are NOT public safety. We are NOT enforces of anything! Even the badge is ludicourous, as it has no authority at all.
> 
> ...



I think this pretty much covers it.


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## fortsmithman (Jun 19, 2009)

I think that EMS is a cross between Medicine and Public Safety.  If we want to be considered mostly or all medicine then require all providers to have complete a college/university course at least 2 yrs in length.  Ideally our training should be at least a 4 yr bachelors degree like other health care professions.  We need to increase education.  Because with increased education come increased scopes of practice.


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## Double-E (Jun 19, 2009)

Melclin said:


> I think there should be a certain amount of thought put into how you prepare students for stress and emotional trauma. The army is well versed in such matters.



ima bluntly disagree here.  i have a GOOD friend who joined the marines and i have to say about him and his co-workers (w/e you want to call them)...they're INCREDIBLY cold to the point of near complete emotional detachment.  

NOT desirable in a profession which is based on care and compassion methinks :wacko:


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## Shishkabob (Jun 19, 2009)

Double-E said:


> ima bluntly disagree here.  i have a GOOD friend who joined the marines and i have to say about him and his co-workers (w/e you want to call them)...they're INCREDIBLY cold to the point of near complete emotional detachment.
> 
> NOT desirable in a profession which is based on care and compassion methinks :wacko:



It's something the military does well.


Ask anyone that's ever been to Marine boot camp.  After every order, you are required to say "Kill".  Desensitization is the primary reason.  

Another thing they do is not allow you to react to loud noises.  Fire alarm go off in chow hall?  You better keep eating.


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## paramedicmike (Jun 19, 2009)

fortsmithman said:


> I think that EMS is a cross between Medicine and Public Safety.  If we want to be considered mostly or all medicine then require all providers to have complete a college/university course at least 2 yrs in length.  Ideally our training should be at least a 4 yr bachelors degree like other health care professions.  We need to increase education.  Because with increased education come increased scopes of practice.



What do you think many of us have been fighting for/working towards for years?   Four year degrees need to be required for entry level EMS work.

-be safe


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## akflightmedic (Jun 19, 2009)

JonTullos said:


> Well, some say the earliest form of EMS was soldiers being carried off the battlefield so one could use that as an argument for EMS being paramilitary.  As for me, I say absolutely not.  It's a medical profession, not a form of protection or enforcement so why would EMS need to be considered along the same lines as the Marines?



And some would say the early firefighters were nothing more than gangs of men representing insurance companies, selling out to the highest bidder, many times escalating to violence on the scene.

Because it is how we may have started does not mean it is how we should be...


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## EMTinNEPA (Jun 19, 2009)

EMS be paramilitary?  This is bad comedy.


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## medic417 (Jun 19, 2009)

I should have placed a poll I guess.  Seems based on responses most including myself oppose paramilitary style of EMS.  

I do agree with the need to be in shape but that can be done w/o acting like we are military.  I have heard of a service that requires you to exercise 1 hour per shift paid.  Your ambulance is sent to the gym and you are allowed to work out.  Others have actually had contests to motivate.  And there is nothing wrong with saying if you are to out of shape to do the job you will be fired, if that doesn't motivate nothing will.  

As to the we've always done it this way it has been shown in many topics that much of EMS is based on traditions that have continued despite scientific evidence against.   For example back boarding all trauma, proven bad yet many still argue it is better to err on side of caution.


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## 46Young (Jun 19, 2009)

PT is important. Show up early to get it in, or do it after your shift ends. Charleston County EMS has a paramilitary structure. So does Fairfax County FRD. CC has a Sarge or Lt. Fx has a Lt. riding the seat(that's changing with the new one & one initiative). If you're both medics, having someone dictate care without input from the other provider is fundamentally wrong. Your card is at risk along with theirs. The court won't care about ranks when malpractice is in question. Pt care is not compatible with a paramilitary structure. all you need is a lead provider for guidance, and a field supervisor. I never had to deal with my partner dictating pt care without my input in NY. Luckily, at my station, I'm treated as an equal in regards to pt care.


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## Summit (Jun 19, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> I honor those that chose to enter the military. I chose not to. Should respiratory therapist, public health nurses be paramilitary as well? Could you see home health or hospice nurses being such? Again, why should EMS?
> 
> We are NOT public safety. We are NOT enforces of anything! Even the badge is ludicourous, as it has no authority at all.
> 
> ...



end of thread


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## reaper (Jun 19, 2009)

46Young said:


> PT is important. Show up early to get it in, or do it after your shift ends. Charleston County EMS has a paramilitary structure. So does Fairfax County FRD. CC has a Sarge or Lt. Fx has a Lt. riding the seat(that's changing with the new one & one initiative). If you're both medics, having someone dictate care without input from the other provider is fundamentally wrong. Your card is at risk along with theirs. The court won't care about ranks when malpractice is in question. Pt care is not compatible with a paramilitary structure. all you need is a lead provider for guidance, and a field supervisor. I never had to deal with my partner dictating pt care without my input in NY. Luckily, at my station, I'm treated as an equal in regards to pt care.



Most agencies do have rank structure for supervisors. That does not mean that they outrank you in Pt care, if you are both medics. I have never had a supervisor tell me how to treat a pt!


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## medic417 (Jun 19, 2009)

reaper said:


> Most agencies do have rank structure for supervisors. That does not mean that they outrank you in Pt care, if you are both medics. I have never had a supervisor tell me how to treat a pt!



I have seen very few EMS only systems that use rank like Sarge or Lt, Capt, etc.  Yes you have a supervisor but you do not salute, stand at attn.  Seems only fire and volunteer systems that use them and act that way.


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## reaper (Jun 19, 2009)

Every EMS only system I have ever worked for used Capt, Lt, and Sgt.  No, you do not salute or stand at attention for them. It is a ranking of supervisor levels.

As I stated, they do not dictate pt care to other medics.


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## el Murpharino (Jun 19, 2009)

I will quote two of the three Air Force core values, which is about as militaristic as EMS should be:

Integrity First
Excellence in All We Do

(For those that care, the third is service before self....but I'm not putting EMS before Me or my family)

If one adheres to those two values, regardless of what capacity you function in, you will easily be head and shoulders above the status quo.


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## LucidResq (Jun 19, 2009)

Melclin said:


> Also, on the education side of it, I think there should be a certain amount of thought put into how you prepare students for stress and emotional trauma. The army is well versed in such matters.



Really? You're referring to the US Army? 

Army's monthly suicide toll may surpass Iraq, Afghanistan combat deaths

'Tell somebody,' if you're thinking of suicide, says general


> The 101st Airborne's senior commander in effect ordered his soldiers Wednesday not to commit suicide, a plea that came after 11 suicides since January 1, two of them in the past week.
> 
> "If you don't remember anything else I say in the next five or 10 minutes, remember this -- suicidal behavior in the 101st on Fort Campbell is bad," Brig. Gen. Stephen J. Townsend told his forces. "It's bad for soldiers, it's bad for families, bad for your units, bad for this division and our army and our country and it's got to stop now. Suicides on Fort Campbell have to stop now." ...
> 
> ...



Army mental-health providers in Iraq often unlicensed in war's early going


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## LucidResq (Jun 19, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> Should we stand at attention or have PT (who has the time on duty?)



I think some kind of organized PT would actually be highly beneficial. Not saying you should have people lifting weights between calls, but some kind of physical fitness standard that is evaluated continuously, not just at hiring, in addition to an agency-facilitated group fitness program would be a good thing. 

A) We all know people in EMS who are so grossly obese and/or out of shape that it clearly affects their ability to provide quality patient care. 

B ) Exercise relieves stress. Period. Especially regular exercise. 

C) A simple weekly or monthly game of capture-the-flag or ultimate frisbee could facilitate group bonding. Playing team sports fosters... get this.. teamwork!


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## 46Young (Jun 19, 2009)

reaper said:


> Most agencies do have rank structure for supervisors. That does not mean that they outrank you in Pt care, if you are both medics. I have never had a supervisor tell me how to treat a pt!



This goes on with some old time Lt's at Fairfax. Providers that have experience in other agencies know better than to let this fly. Those that have never worked for a 911 agency think that this is normal. It depends on the Lt. Some say "I'm a medic, and you're a medic". Others treat you like you don't have a clue, other than taking care of interventions as directed by the Lt. Some tried that crap with me. I put an end to it real quick.


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## mycrofft (Jun 19, 2009)

*If by paramilitary you mean hoorah and sidearms...Nope. However:*

If you mean a system of regulations, rank/promotion based on training, time in service, and merit, with esiprit d' corps, then maybe yes.

Nothing forbids a private or public service from going that way, but in practice it seems most are pretty dependent on individual managers' integrity and smarts to make it any good on an organizational level.

I think our existent Guard and Reserve troops should get mre real world practice and doing real world EMS is one way to do it.


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## reaper (Jun 19, 2009)

46Young said:


> This goes on with some old time Lt's at Fairfax. Providers that have experience in other agencies know better than to let this fly. Those that have never worked for a 911 agency think that this is normal. It depends on the Lt. Some say "I'm a medic, and you're a medic". Others treat you like you don't have a clue, other than taking care of interventions as directed by the Lt. Some tried that crap with me. I put an end to it real quick.



Exactly, They have no more power over your treatments, then a bystander. They are your supervisor over operational standpoints. You were right to nip it off fast. As long as you are equal in your license, then you work together as a team. If they have more experience then you, then by all means accept their advice.


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## Shishkabob (Jun 19, 2009)

Again, how could you guys not want to carry around flashbangs in our jump kits?!


Narcan make your overdose aggressive?  Throw a flashbang at him!


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## thrilla82 (Jun 19, 2009)

this is an interesting thread.  i find myself having trouble on the civilian side of the house, not with rank but with treatments.  being on a second deployment as a medic in the infantry, ive seen my fair share of traumas but dont understand why the civilian side of the house doesnt adopt some of our sop's (tc3).  i know the main argument will be the transport time, your not with the patient long enough but heres an example.  how many times have you brought a pt to the er with a bleed that a pressure dressing is having a hard time controlling but sop's are too afraid of a tourniquet.  why not use the tourniquet to stop the bleeding, pack the wound with kerlex (or a hemostatic agent depending on the bleed)  and wrap with an ace wrap.  as time goes by and you keep doing your ongoing assessment, you can loosen the tourniquet if need be ( or the doctor, to see what hes working with).  to me, it beats holding pressure and elevating the whole time.  

curious to see the replies on this.


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## medic417 (Jun 19, 2009)

thrilla82 said:


> this is an interesting thread.  i find myself having trouble on the civilian side of the house, not with rank but with treatments.  being on a second deployment as a medic in the infantry, ive seen my fair share of traumas but dont understand why the civilian side of the house doesnt adopt some of our sop's (tc3).  i know the main argument will be the transport time, your not with the patient long enough but heres an example.  how many times have you brought a pt to the er with a bleed that a pressure dressing is having a hard time controlling but sop's are too afraid of a tourniquet.  why not use the tourniquet to stop the bleeding, pack the wound with kerlex (or a hemostatic agent depending on the bleed)  and wrap with an ace wrap.  as time goes by and you keep doing your ongoing assessment, you can loosen the tourniquet if need be ( or the doctor, to see what hes working with).  to me, it beats holding pressure and elevating the whole time.
> 
> curious to see the replies on this.



That is now the way we do it and PHTLS teaches.  NREMT even now tests with tourniquet being way to control bleeding.


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## reaper (Jun 19, 2009)

Yes, we have Tq's in our protocols. But, there is no way the trauma team would allow hemostatic dressings. They are fine in the battle field, but have been shot down in a lot of civilian areas, due to the thermo action of them.


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## Bloom-IUEMT (Jun 19, 2009)

I think it should be less paramilitary.  I've noticed a lot of people at my service come from military background and not even a military medic background  sometimes.  I'm curious as to why the cross-over.  Why does EMS attract the same type of people as the military does?  I'm not saying its bad, although there are some guys who are kind of terse and militaristic and I'm not sure why then even like dealing with patients.


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## EMTrainer (Jun 19, 2009)

*With Great Respect, No Sir*

Are there things we can learn from the military, definately Yes.
Should we seek to become like the military, definately No.

There is no argument that war and other military functions have contributed greatly to our EMS system, from the first use of modern triage to some of the most current technology coming out of our ongoing operations in the Middle East. We have also inherited some technology from NASA. Doesn't mean I want to be an astronaut.

:usa:

Thank you to everyone who serves or has served in the military of the United States and our allies. You have my undying gratitude and respect.


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## Ridryder911 (Jun 19, 2009)

Ironically, when I first started I was with primarily those that served in Vietnam as medics. They were quite the opposite of wanting paramilitary within EMS. Yes, alike discussed upon the professionalism but in regards to true paramilitary style, they were quite the opposite in what I have seen of the recent medics that are or were military. 

R/r 911


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## Melclin (Jun 19, 2009)

LucidResq said:


> Really? You're referring to the US Army?



A thousand times no. I was ganna say something about the US army but I thought I might end up starting something. I mean't in my the case the Australian army.

And not to adopt their practice straight up, I just think they can be learned from. I thought it would be interesting to consult them, see if they know something we don't.


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## mycrofft (Jun 19, 2009)

*I think some folks confuse "being paramilitary" to "adopting military technique".*

Whole different balls of wax.


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## Second (Jun 19, 2009)

medic417 said:


> That is now the way we do it and PHTLS teaches.  NREMT even now tests with tourniquet being way to control bleeding.



yep yep, at the beginning of the year they were teaching  us the lifting and pressure points, about two months ago they told us to throw all that out and go back to the tourniquet. I'm sure in two or three years they'll change it again.


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## hrmeeks (Jun 20, 2009)

medic417 said:


> I should have placed a poll I guess.  Seems based on responses most including myself oppose paramilitary style of EMS.
> 
> I do agree with the need to be in shape but that can be done w/o acting like we are military.  I have heard of a service that requires you to exercise 1 hour per shift paid.  Your ambulance is sent to the gym and you are allowed to work out.  Others have actually had contests to motivate.  And there is nothing wrong with saying if you are to out of shape to do the job you will be fired, if that doesn't motivate nothing will.
> 
> As to the we've always done it this way it has been shown in many topics that much of EMS is based on traditions that have continued despite scientific evidence against.   For example back boarding all trauma, proven bad yet many still argue it is better to err on side of caution.



you hump 16 calls in 24 hrs and see if you wanna go a gym for an hour.... me all i wanna do is hit a bed for about 10 hrs.  Besides personal fitness should be exactly that personal.  A job cannot mandate that you do any p.t. only that you pass testing. 

As for the paramilitary comment i ment it to be for the dicipline, the respect, integerity and the brotherhood.  Not badges or salutes maybe a ranking system deffinatly a uniform teaching academy.


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## JPINFV (Jun 20, 2009)

hrmeeks said:


> a uniform teaching academy.



Uniform, such as a standard curriculum/serious curriculum standards, or uniform as wearing uniforms?


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## hrmeeks (Jun 20, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> Uniform, such as a standard curriculum/serious curriculum standards, or uniform as wearing uniforms?



standard teaching academy....... b/c every school has a different way of completing the program


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## TransportJockey (Jun 20, 2009)

hrmeeks said:


> standard teaching academy....... b/c every school has a different way of completing the program



Before we can have that, we to standardize scope for the country.


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## JPINFV (Jun 20, 2009)

I don't think that there's any healthcare program that is that rigid. Hell, even medical school has three or four different styles of teaching (traditional, problem based learning, systems, hybrid, and probably a few others). What I would like to see is required accreditation (yes, it's moving that way), and then have accreditation play hardball to make sure that education standards and goals are met. Personally, I don't care how the knowledge is crammed into the heads of the students, I just care that it's crammed in at the end. If someone learns better with one style, and there's a school that is willing to teach in that style, then more power to them.


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## JPINFV (Jun 20, 2009)

jtpaintball70 said:


> Before we can have that, we to standardize scope for the country.



No. You don't. All physicians take one of two sets of licensing exams depending on their tradition (allopathic vs osteopathic, albeit many DOs take the MD exams for residency purposes). The surgeon, family med, internal med, emergency med, and psychiatrist all take the same 3 exams and practical before they are fully licensed, yet all of them end up practicing wildly different parts of medicine. How can medicine expect a psychiatrist and an endocrinologist to take the same licensing exam, yet we get our collective panties in a bunch because of a relatively small difference in scope of practice from one local to another?


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## hrmeeks (Jun 20, 2009)

jtpaintball70 said:


> Before we can have that, we to standardize scope for the country.



not true rn have many different skillsets and each one varies some state to state but they have a standard teaching pratice credits transfer between schools


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## EMTrainer (Jun 20, 2009)

*Uniform Teaching Academy*

I don't believe that EMS education can, or should be taught, exactly the same everywhere. Yes, we need a standardized curriculum, but there has to be accomodations for different teaching and learning styles as well as the ability to adapt the flexible content to regional differences.


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## medichopeful (Jun 28, 2009)

As someone who has yet to enter into EMS, here are my thoughts:

I believe that EMS should be paramilitary in some ways, but not in others.  I believe that the way they appear should be paramilitary (pressed uniforms, shined boots, etc.), but not the way they interact with each other or with the public.  Here is why I think this: EMTs are out in the public eye nearly 100% of the time.  They need to have a very professional look about them, because one of the ways to be respected is to look professional and sharp.  It gives a good first impression.  Would you rather have a sloppy looking, unkempt EMS provider come to take care of yourself or a loved one?  Or would you rather have somebody who is attentive to their uniform and looks like a professional?

Now, this brings me to my second point.  Do I think that EMS should be paramilitary in the way they interact with the public and themselves (think how police interact sometimes.  Not saying their way is wrong, just pointing it out)?  Not in the least.  as others have said, why would you want to cause more stress to a patient?

I do, however, think that ranks are important.  Order is, I believe, good.  But there is a time and a place for arguments about order, and a time and a place for all of the "sirs" and "maams."  That place is behind closed doors, away from the public eye.


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## JPINFV (Jun 28, 2009)

Since when did paramilitary attitudes becoming the sole source of looking professional while non-paramilitary is the domain for only the unkept? Holy false dichotomy Batman!


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## medic417 (Jun 28, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> Since when did paramilitary attitudes becoming the sole source of looking professional while non-paramilitary is the domain for only the unkept? Holy false dichotomy Batman!



The Joker and the Riddler did it.  To the batmobil Robin.


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## medichopeful (Jun 28, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> Since when did paramilitary attitudes becoming the sole source of looking professional while non-paramilitary is the domain for only the unkept? Holy false dichotomy Batman!



I was just stating my opinion.  There is no need to mock it.  Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.  Does the fact that I have a different view than you mean that I am wrong?  Nope.  Does it mean that you are wrong?  No.*




*Well actually, yes


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## JPINFV (Jun 28, 2009)

Where is the mocking? Stating something along the lines of "I believe that the way they appear should be paramilitary (pressed uniforms, shined boots, etc.)" is the same as saying that only the military looks professional. This is a dictionary perfect example of a false dichotomy. If someone disagreeing and point out a classic fallacy in your thesis is somehow mocking, then you need to seriously reevaluate your definition of mock.


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## Ridryder911 (Jun 28, 2009)

medichopeful said:


> I was just stating my opinion.  There is no need to mock it.  Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.  Does the fact that I have a different view than you mean that I am wrong?  Nope.  Does it mean that you are wrong?  No.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually no, not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Opinions should be based upon facts and knowledge and not careless whimsical thoughts. Seriously, would I ever consider to go to a physician forum and even discuss how things should be done? When in fact, I have never entered their profession or even completed medical school. 

Kinda pompous isn't that anyone's opinion should have merit or weight without having the proper background of making than opinion. 

R/r 911


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## medichopeful (Jun 28, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> Where is the mocking? Stating something along the lines of "I believe that the way they appear should be paramilitary (pressed uniforms, shined boots, etc.)" is the same as saying that only the military looks professional. This is a dictionary perfect example of a false dichotomy. If someone disagreeing and point out a classic fallacy in your thesis is somehow mocking, then you need to seriously reevaluate your definition of mock.



You are right.  That was my bad.  I read your post in the wrong way.  Sorry for the confusion :blush:

When I originally wrote my first response, I did not mean to imply that only the military looks professional.  That was, again, my fault.  I meant to say that in my opinion, the _best_ way to look professional in the EMS field (or any public service that deals primarily with people) is to look sharp.  Does this mean military medals hanging on your shirt?  No.

So please ignore my original post.  I think that I have worded it a little bit better in this one.

Eric


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## medichopeful (Jun 28, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> Actually no, not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Opinions should be based upon facts and knowledge and not careless whimsical thoughts. Seriously, would I ever consider to go to a physician forum and even discuss how things should be done? When in fact, I have never entered their profession or even completed medical school.
> 
> Kinda pompous isn't that anyone's opinion should have merit or weight without having the proper background of making than opinion.
> 
> R/r 911



(I am going to respond to this in as respectfully a way as I can.  If I come across any other way, forgive me.)

So you are basically saying that any thoughts I have on this subject are careless and whimsical?  Because I have no medical training?  Last time I checked, this was a public forum.  In fact, you said it yourself in another post.  Since it is a public forum, I am entitled to an opinion.

Now, if I had portrayed myself as an EMT or somebody in the medical field, the story would be a little different.  However, I clearly stated in my first post in this thread that I am _not_ in the EMS field.  I clearly gave the disclaimer that I am not in the field.  Read the first line of the post again.  In fact, just read my signature.  The disclaimer is there, too.

That being said, this brings me back to my right to have an opinion.  I never asked for my opinion to have any weight to it.  I just stated it.  Did I EVER say that what I was saying was the "be-all-to-end-all?"  I don't think so.  If I wrote it that way, let me know and I will go change it.

I would honestly have no problem with somebody (yourself, anybody else) going onto a physicians forum and joining in the discussions, as long as they gave the disclaimer that they do not have the same level of training as everybody else.  Of course, that is only when it comes to minor things, like the way people should dress.  I would certainly hope that nobody would try to change actual procedures without the proper training.  And as far as I know, that is not what I did.

So basically, what I am trying to say is that even though I am not in the medical field (yet), I still have the right to an opinion.  Just as you or anybody else has the right to an opinion about anything they are not trained in, as long as they have the facts.  Opinions not based in reality or completely off-the-wall are one thing.  Basic opinions in a friendly thread are another thing entirely.

Eric


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## paramedicmike (Jun 28, 2009)

Look at it this way.  You gave us an opinion while, in the very same breath, telling us that you had no idea what you were talking about.  Would you take someone seriously if s/he did that to you?

You are correct.  You are entitled to an opinion even if you don't know what you're talking about.  You are also entitled to be on the receiving end of criticism and complete dismissal of your opinion when you willingly acknowledge that you don't know what you're talking about.  That doesn't just happen here in forums such as these.  It happens in real life, too.  Sometimes it happens with horrifically devastating results.

That's the beauty of a forum such as this.  Everybody talks.  Not just one person.  Someone admitting they have no training in the subject matter is not someone people will readily listen to.  But by committing yourself to obtaining that training gives you hope that as you learn more, more people will begin to take what you have to say seriously.

Until then, voicing an opinion while saying that you don't have any knowledge, training, education or otherwise to support your opinion is a surefire way for people to dismiss, disregard, and possibly outright ignore anything you have to say.

Good luck with your training!


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## medichopeful (Jun 28, 2009)

paramedicmike said:


> Look at it this way.  You gave us an opinion while, in the very same breath, telling us that you had no idea what you were talking about.  Would you take someone seriously if s/he did that to you?
> 
> You are correct.  You are entitled to an opinion even if you don't know what you're talking about.  You are also entitled to be on the receiving end of criticism and complete dismissal of your opinion when you willingly acknowledge that you don't know what you're talking about.  That doesn't just happen here in forums such as these.  It happens in real life, too.  Sometimes it happens with horrifically devastating results.
> 
> ...



This is not a matter of life or death.  If I was telling how procedures should be done, that would be WAY out of line.  But all I am saying is that I think EMS should be dressed professionally.

Now, I have come to realize that I may have screwed up my terminology.  I am really trying to say that I believe that EMS should be dressed professionally.  Maybe not paramilitary dress, but professional none-the-less.

There, I admitted my mistake.  Hopefully this will help me gain a _little_ more respect here.

Now, back to your post.  I do not expect to just automatically get respect here.  I realize that I do not have the training to be taken seriously, but I hope I can prove that I am not some nutjob who thinks he knows everything about EMS even though he is not in the field.  With that being said, I have _some_ education _about_ the field, but it is only from self-study.  Studies like reading books, reading this forum, reading about EMS on the internet, and spending time at my local FD (which does BLS/ALS for my town).  Am I saying that I am all-knowledgeable about the field of EMS?  No.  Am I saying that I have the same authority as somebody who is in the field?  Not in the least.  I realize that I have very little training, but I am slightly educated.  I am not just spouting information without studying the field a  all.  I am going to be entering the field, so the least I can do while waiting to take the EMT-B course is read up on the field.  

As far as I know, I did not say anything about having no idea what I was talking about.  There is a difference between saying that I have no training (which, if memory serves me, was what I said) and saying I have no idea what I am talking about.

With all this being said, let me say this: do I think that I should automatically be listened to?  No.  Do I think that I should be able to prove myself by showing that I am serious about studying the field I will be entering?  Yes.  Do I think that I have a lot of knowledge about EMS?  No.  Do I think I should be treated with respect, even though I am not in the field?  Yes.


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## medichopeful (Jun 28, 2009)

*Please read*

Okay all,

First, let me say this: I am sorry if I came across in any way as a jerk or a know-it-all.  I did not mean to insult or piss anybody off.

From discussion with other members on here, I have come to realize that maybe my posts came across as saying "this is how it should be."  As somebody who has no knowledge of EMS (besides informal studying), I would never do this.  I was just trying to say my $.02.  I should have worded things more clearly, and I will be careful to do the same in the future.  I was not trying to tell people how things should be run.  I was just trying to join in on a conversation.   

I respect everybody on here, and I realize that they have WAY more training than I do.  I would never tell anybody on here how things should be done.

So I truly apologize.  I enjoy posting on here, but I will be more careful.

So once again, I apologize for the way I came across.

Eric

(Please pardon the thread hijack)


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## rmellish (Jun 28, 2009)

Are we considering fire departments paramilitary? They have a clear rank structure, uniforms, etc. I'd consider that paramilitary by definition. 

Do I think we need Captains, lieutenants and such running around? No, shift supers, managers, and directors seem to make it work just fine at my "Third Service."  The paramilitary structures push EMS further into the public safety arena.


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