# IV certs for basics.. or is it an Intermediate?



## DV_EMT (Sep 23, 2009)

So does anyone know if there's a cert or something that a basic can get to give the basic NS, D5W, or LR? I've been lookin around and have heard mixed things. If anyone could link me... that'd be great!


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## LucidResq (Sep 23, 2009)

Certain states allow EMT-Bs to take an IV approval course that allows them to start peripheral IVs and administer NS, LR, D50, and sometimes narcan. 

Colorado is one. 

Here is a course information sheet.


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## JPINFV (Sep 23, 2009)

Whether basics can initiate IVs is going to be up to the local system and not dependent on any specific certification. Even if an EMT-B becomes a certifiied phlebotomist, s/he can't start IVs as a basic unless the local system approves.


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## EMS49393 (Sep 23, 2009)

Why not enroll in a nice paramedic program that offers a swell degree?  Basics shouldn't be doing any invasive skills, period.  I'm sure I'll be dead and buried before this job moves past the mentality of "how fast and easy can I be trained to do a bunch of harmful stuff to people."  Alas, requiring a four year degree before becoming eligible to become a paramedic is something that will probably never happen in the US.

It's not about skills, it's about education.


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## DV_EMT (Sep 23, 2009)

EMS49393 said:


> Why not enroll in a nice paramedic program that offers a swell degree?  Basics shouldn't be doing any invasive skills, period.  I'm sure I'll be dead and buried before this job moves past the mentality of "how fast and easy can I be trained to do a bunch of harmful stuff to people."  Alas, requiring a four year degree before becoming eligible to become a paramedic is something that will probably never happen in the US.
> 
> It's not about skills, it's about education.



already working on that... just need a 1000 EMT hours and then im set


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## akflightmedic (Sep 23, 2009)

So get those 1000 hours of EMT instead of worrying about adding more to it, since your end goal will cover those things anyways.


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## MrBrown (Sep 23, 2009)

EMS49393 said:


> Why not enroll in a nice paramedic program that offers a swell degree?  Basics shouldn't be doing any invasive skills, period.  I'm sure I'll be dead and buried before this job moves past the mentality of "how fast and easy can I be trained to do a bunch of harmful stuff to people."  Alas, requiring a four year degree before becoming eligible to become a paramedic is something that will probably never happen in the US.
> 
> It's not about skills, it's about education.



What he said


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## DV_EMT (Sep 23, 2009)

problem is that there is EMT-B saturation in Ca.... really freaking hard to get a job on a rig let alone a hospital


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## JPINFV (Sep 23, 2009)

In most parts of California getting a job isn't hard. Getting a job at a decent company is another question.


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## EMS49393 (Sep 23, 2009)

DV_EMT said:


> problem is that there is EMT-B saturation in Ca.... really freaking hard to get a job on a rig let alone a hospital



Look, the class took 120 hours to complete.  I bet it takes longer to get through school janitor orientation.  Of course there's an over abundance of EMT-B's.  Heck, you can't sling a dead cat without hitting one.  So instead of looking for these bogus little certs to attempt to prove your worth, it's best to channel that energy into something productive, like an anatomy and physiology course, some chemistry, and English class or two, etc., while you're waiting to get into and complete a paramedic program.

I'm going to be a lot more interested in hiring someone that is going to college rather than someone that took a 3 week EMT class then attempts to pass themselves off as being special because they took a weekend class so they could do harmful things to patients with no educational background.


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## TransportJockey (Sep 23, 2009)

Or move out of CA and go to somewhere that doesn't have that silly requirement and has a progressive system


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## VentMedic (Sep 23, 2009)

EMS49393 said:


> Look, the class took 120 hours to complete. I bet it takes longer to get through school janitor orientation. Of course there's an over abundance of EMT-B's.


 
Actually it is a certificate program at some of the tech school that can require up to almost a year to complete all the modules to be a well trained/education janitor. People have invested thousands of dollars in their flooring and don't want them "harmed". 



jtpaintball70 said:


> Or move out of CA and go to somewhere that doesn't have that silly requirement and has a progressive system


 
Allowing an EMT-B to do more "skills" is not a progressive system. It is just a patchwork of FAIL. The education and oversight are too little which does have a great potential for harm to the patient. 

Do you realize in some areas of Canada and other countries, "BLS" requires more education/training than the U.S. Paramedic? For this reason, studies like OPALS can not be used as an argument in the U.S for the effectiveness and appropriateness of BLS only.


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## medic417 (Sep 23, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Allowing an EMT-B to do more "skills" is not a progressive system. It is just a patchwork of FAIL. The education and oversight are too little which does have a great potential for harm to the patient.
> .



I think he meant progressive in not requiring basic experience to enter a Paramedic degree program.


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## VentMedic (Sep 23, 2009)

medic417 said:


> I think he meant progressive in not requiring basic experience to enter a Paramedic degree program.


 
I was also taking note that this is another California situation as JPINFV explained.  There is nothing progressive about it because oversight for each of the counties has the good and the very, very bad. 



JPINFV said:


> Whether basics can initiate IVs is going to be up to the local system and not dependent on any specific certification.


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## TransportJockey (Sep 23, 2009)

medic417 said:


> I think he meant progressive in not requiring basic experience to enter a Paramedic degree program.



This was what I was trying to get across, and also a system where higher education is mandated to be a medic


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## medichopeful (Sep 23, 2009)

Now way in hell that an EMT-B should be able to start IVs.


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## wvditchdoc (Sep 23, 2009)

What about Combat "Lifetakers" in the Military, 3 day class and off you go?


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## 8jimi8 (Sep 23, 2009)

its different when the people you are working with are likely to get blown up in front of you.


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## akflightmedic (Sep 23, 2009)

wvditchdoc said:


> What about Combat "Lifetakers" in the Military, 3 day class and off you go?



And the reason that class exists is because it has saved countless lives in the field. You can in no way compare a CLS to a CONUS EMT. It has practical purpose for this situation in this environment, it has zero application when back home.


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## daedalus (Sep 23, 2009)

DV_EMT said:


> So does anyone know if there's a cert or something that a basic can get to give the basic NS, D5W, or LR? I've been lookin around and have heard mixed things. If anyone could link me... that'd be great!



No, not where you live or anywhere near where you live. Our Medical Director for Santa Barbara and Ventura is a very conventional when it comes to the EMT scope of practice. Which is a good thing. 

* I understand DV_EMT's plight about getting his hours around where he lives. There is only one employer many miles in any direction and they are an employer with a great reputation for EMS employment in southern california, and by that token are very hard to get employed with. *

**DV, NCTI does not require 1000 hours**
***But be sure to not take their stupid 5 day A&P and do a real one at City College***


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## wvditchdoc (Sep 23, 2009)

akflightmedic said:


> And the reason that class exists is because it has saved countless lives in the field. You can in no way compare a CLS to a CONUS EMT. It has practical purpose for this situation in this environment, it has zero application when back home.


 
I understand that and agree that it has a _very_ specific application, just trying to ellicit thoughts and opinions on it. 

I am strictly against EMT's being allowed to start IV's without any more training than the EMT class or an inservice one weekend, along with others here. I was just attempting to point out differences that other may not be aware of.


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## StreetPharmacist (Sep 23, 2009)

We have a Bls/CLS medic instructor that's a student in our paramedic program and he said that very soon they are discounting iv in cls training, as it is taking to much emphasis off bls in combat, they just want to get iv started with out first doing bls, only medics in the army will be doing a iv.


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## DV_EMT (Sep 24, 2009)

daedalus said:


> No, not where you live or anywhere near where you live. Our Medical Director for Santa Barbara and Ventura is a very conventional when it comes to the EMT scope of practice. Which is a good thing.
> 
> * I understand DV_EMT's plight about getting his hours around where he lives. There is only one employer many miles in any direction and they are an employer with a great reputation for EMS employment in southern california, and by that token are very hard to get employed with. *
> 
> ...



Yeah... its really tough. I've called everyone.... including SAR and Harbor patrol and absolutely NO ONE is hiring.

As for the 1000 hours... i'd love to bypass it at NCTI... but They charge almost thrice the amount as Ventura College... though VC has had a few poor reviews


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## guardian528 (Sep 24, 2009)

my buddy just got a job with harbor patrol, and i just passed the written exam for AMR.... are you sure there are no jobs?

and i'm pretty sure sb county is one that does not allow emt's to get that skill. plus daedalus said the same thing and it sounds like he has a billion times more experience than us with our area


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## DV_EMT (Sep 24, 2009)

guardian528 said:


> my buddy just got a job with harbor patrol, and i just passed the written exam for AMR.... are you sure there are no jobs?
> 
> and i'm pretty sure sb county is one that does not allow emt's to get that skill. plus daedalus said the same thing and it sounds like he has a billion times more experience than us with our area



its still difficult... 80 students a semester out of CC... pretty tough for only like 5 positions


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## guardian528 (Sep 24, 2009)

DV_EMT said:


> its still difficult... 80 students a semester out of CC... pretty tough for only like 5 positions



ya i agree, but realistically i don't think that many people from those classes are looking for an emt job right after. there are a lot of older folk that just want some medical training, then there are those marine bio guys that just need it for their degree, and probably a bunch that are super interested right when they graduate, but then fade off. but ya i still agree with you that its tough with so many


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## daedalus (Sep 24, 2009)

DV, try to find a way to make NCTI work for you. It is just way to stressful trying to get hired with AMR and it will delay your paramedic education. They do have a degree option and I know a paramedic who has a degree from the articulation they have with the College of Siskiyous. 

Paramedic education sucks in general and in any school, your going to have to really put in your own work to get the most out of it.


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## srowell (Oct 21, 2009)

Excited to take my IV approval soon here in Colorado as an EMT-B.  Seems as if most places round here won't take you until you have your IV approval, or will require you to get it upon hire - as if there were jobs to be had right now!


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## ChicagolandIFT (Oct 24, 2009)

I have my Illinois and Indiana certs, well Illinois license and Indiana cert.  I know in Indiana I can transport pt's with an already established peripheral IV site and already running NS, LR, and up to D5 in water.  The state also allows basics to transport any of those fluids with up to 20 milliequivalents of freaking potassium in it!!  Scary... right.  I have never run across it, most of the doc's will order a heplock before transport.  In Indiana they also have an 80 hour class to become a "EMT-Basic Advanced" which some rural areas use, the 80 hours apparently teaches them to start a line, initiate fluids, and teaches them rythm analysis and lets them manually defib.  Kind of freaky huh.  In the past two weeks we have had two full arrests of dialysis patients from my station, both due to electrolyte imbalances, I really do not like the idea of it myself.


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## Achromatic (Oct 24, 2009)

ChicagolandIFT said:


> In Indiana they also have an 80 hour class to become a "EMT-Basic Advanced" which some rural areas use, the 80 hours apparently teaches them to start a line, initiate fluids, and teaches them rythm analysis and lets them manually defib.



Ummm, "yikes". Though I think from your use of "apparently", you seem to agree.

That is, to me, just scary.


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## ChicagolandIFT (Oct 24, 2009)

Achromatic said:


> Ummm, "yikes". Though I think from your use of "apparently", you seem to agree.
> 
> That is, to me, just scary.



It is very scary to me too.


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## MrBrown (Oct 25, 2009)

ChicagolandIFT said:


> It is very scary to me too.



Me three!


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## ChicagolandIFT (Oct 25, 2009)

We could start teaching children how to start IV's in primary school... then by the time they get to EMS they will be real professionals


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## nightstar22 (Nov 3, 2009)

In tennessee, they have the emt-iv cewrtification. You can do iv's and give 11 different drugs, they are about to change this, and put the emt-iv's on an intermediate level, and the first responders on the basic level. It all depends on which state you come from and what their levels are.


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## VentMedic (Nov 3, 2009)

bmorgan79 said:


> It all depends on which state you come from and what their levels are.


 
Hence, EMS has fostered its own weakness by having over 50 different "certs" with each state differing and where some are based on a single skill.   Imagine how many levels other professions could have if they adopted the same mentality?


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## Mountain Res-Q (Nov 3, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Hence, EMS has fostered its own weakness by having over 50 different "certs" with each state differing and where some are based on a single skill.   Imagine how many levels other professions could have if they adopted the same mentality?



So that explains why everyone here can claim a different level of training...  -_-

AEMT…  AEMT-I…  AEMT-CC…  AEMT-P… CCP…  CFR…  EMR…  EMT-1…  EMT-2…  EMT-A…  EMT-B…  EMT-C…   EMT-D…  EMT-I85…  EMT-I99…  EMT-IV…  EMT-P…  ER…  FR…  MFR…  MICP…  NREMT-B…  NREMT-P…  OEC…  WEMT…  WFR...  and half a billion others...

^DAMN... Looks like an Eye Chart...^


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## atropine (Nov 3, 2009)

EMS49393 said:


> Look, the class took 120 hours to complete.  I bet it takes longer to get through school janitor orientation.  Of course there's an over abundance of EMT-B's.  Heck, you can't sling a dead cat without hitting one.  So instead of looking for these bogus little certs to attempt to prove your worth, it's best to channel that energy into something productive, like an anatomy and physiology course, some chemistry, and English class or two, etc., while you're waiting to get into and complete a paramedic program.
> 
> I'm going to be a lot more interested in hiring someone that is going to college rather than someone that took a 3 week EMT class then attempts to pass themselves off as being special because they took a weekend class so they could do harmful things to patients with no educational background.



Why?, then you have to pay them more.


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## denverfiremedic (Nov 4, 2009)

mmm


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## MrBrown (Nov 4, 2009)

Hmmmmmmm


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## zmedic (Nov 30, 2009)

> Why not enroll in a nice paramedic program that offers a swell degree?  Basics shouldn't be doing any invasive skills, period.  .



I'm going to disagree with this one. There are a lot of systems that are running EMT/medic trucks. If your EMT can start a line and hook up a 12 lead you can run most calls just the two of you. For arrests you just need a FF for CPR. It's much cheaper to do it that way than to pay 2 medics for every ALS truck. 

I used to work in Colorado in such a system and thought it worked very well. It wasn't about EMTs learning advanced skills so that they can play medic. It's about freeing up the medic to run the call, push drugs, read the monitor etc rather than spending a lot of time doing things like hooking up the monitor. And it makes the EMTs much better prepared for when they do go to med school/medic school/RN school. 

Clearly one should work as a basic for a bit before getting these additonal certs but I think they have a place in many systems.


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## JPINFV (Nov 30, 2009)

zmedic said:


> And it makes the EMTs much better prepared for when they do go to med school



Errr... no.


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