# What do I need?



## Curious (Apr 15, 2008)

I am in the preliminary stages of planning a survival school with a friend (we would start as much as 7 years out).  One of the things I would like to happen before we take other people out is for at least one of us to be medically qualified to handle situations that might come up.  I know CLS skills do not qualify us to take care of civilians.  What level of civilian training would all of you recommend that would give us similar skills to CLS and would enable us to be able to take care of our students in an emergency?  Also, aside from EMS training, are there any specialized medical courses that would be recommended?  I'm just trying to plan ahead because I know all of this training takes a good deal of time and I'd like to get started fairly soon.  Thanks for your help.


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## AZFF/EMT (Apr 15, 2008)

First responder would be kind of an equal, but if you are talking about combat life saver, in the army you were taught IV and andvanced airway techniques that you cannot perform as a civilian. I would at least get EMT-B certified, its roughly 12 weeks longs and pretty easy.

We have some pretty cool groups here in arizona through the county sheriffs office that do medical rescue, desert search, mountain rescue ect. Try to find some local groups and get training and advice from members.


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## CPG (Apr 16, 2008)

Do this.....Post here what your goals are for your course, and we all can help you decide on what you will need.

I have been in the planning / operations for SAR and survival schools for the past 3 years.

CPG


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## Curious (Apr 16, 2008)

I'll have to talk to my buddy some more before I can give any final insight to our goals.  I'm not even sure if he will want to focus more on primitive, modern, or military techniques.  I think we're planning to start on woodland survival and move eventually to desert if that helps.  I'll play more of a "business" role overall.  Our planning is still just in concept stages and we're looking to see if it's a feasible idea for us.


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## BossyCow (Apr 16, 2008)

I'd suggest Wilderness FA as a minimum.


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## Curious (Apr 17, 2008)

I could be wrong, but from my vantage point, one of the main medical factors that I will have to be concerned with is dehydration.  That is why I want to be certified to administer IV's.  A lot of people are telling me that I just need EMT-B and a paramedic friend of mine is saying I just need basic first aide.  Will any of this permit me to administer an IV or should I not be worrying about that?


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## BossyCow (Apr 17, 2008)

Curious said:


> I could be wrong, but from my vantage point, one of the main medical factors that I will have to be concerned with is dehydration.  That is why I want to be certified to administer IV's.  A lot of people are telling me that I just need EMT-B and a paramedic friend of mine is saying I just need basic first aide.  Will any of this permit me to administer an IV or should I not be worrying about that?



I think you must have misunderstood your Paramedic friend. Depending on your state, IV may not be allowed as EMT-B. Washington State has an IV component that can be added to an EMT-B but many states have it strictly as EMT-I or EMT-P. I don't know of anywhere that will allow a basic first aider to start an IV.

Now, are you talking about your students becoming dehydrated? Seems like teaching proper hydration should be a major priority. I would be more proactive on this rather than attempting to wait and start an IV on something that shouldn't have occurred in a classroom setting. 

I would think that in a wilderness setting,one of your biggest concerns is going to be infection. It's dirty out there, and when dealing in wilderness situations, a small blister or minor injury can become life threatening if infection sets in and you are three days out. Another big issue is going to be hypo/hyperthermia. I don't know what area you are planning on teaching this class in, but that is going to impact your training considerably. Are you a hotter climate? Wet? Higher Altitude? All of these areas have their own unique sets of issues. 

For example, finding water is never an issue here, we're a rain forest.. but we have to make sure that the water is fit to drink. So, heavy emphasis on filters, disinfection, making sure filters aren't clogged and are still effective... but the downside of the wetter climate is the issues with hypothermia, wet is cold and you can't warm up a wet person. We get hypothermic pts in the middle of July/August due to the damp and heavy canopy of the trees. 

The one constant, no matter where you are is infection and I can't stress enough, the importance of preventing infection, recognizing it early and treating it hard and fast. All of this is covered in a good wilderness first aid course. I would highly recommend your getting one of those before you do anything else. The information is tailored for the wildnerness event and there are many things that are done quite differently because of the remote location and time needed to reach a hospital.


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## Jon (Apr 17, 2008)

Curious said:


> I could be wrong, but from my vantage point, one of the main medical factors that I will have to be concerned with is dehydration.  That is why I want to be certified to administer IV's.  A lot of people are telling me that I just need EMT-B and a paramedic friend of mine is saying I just need basic first aide.  Will any of this permit me to administer an IV or should I not be worrying about that?


Do you really need IV's?

If the concern is dehydration... why not spend time and effort on keeping the participants hydrated?
If you feel it is that dangerous, you should really have someone working for you to handle medical problems... perhaps a paramedic, perhaps a PA or a RN or a physician... Taking a paramedic course is a big investment of time AND money, and it might be easier to hire someone else to handle the medical end of things.


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## Curious (Apr 18, 2008)

Teaching proper hydration is definitely a priority.  Every class I've ever been to stresses proper hydration and we plan to do the same.  I'm just trying to plan for the "what if's."  For example, I once became sick in the field and started vomiting and had diarrhea.  I had been drinking plenty of water, but because I was losing excess water because of those two symptoms, I was given a field IV and taken out of the field.  I was just thinking about situations such as that when I mentioned the IV's.  I'm not really sure if they're necessary or not, but I know we'll be at least a full day out.

Jon,
   I understand that EMT training requires a significant amount of time and money.  I am interested in obtaining the knowledge anyway and am just researching in order to be able to conduct somewhat of a cost-benefit analysis.  Hiring out is another option we're considering, but we're planning way ahead of time and I want to look at all options.

BossyCow,
   Thanks.  From what I'm reading here and elsewhere, the wilderness first aide course is a must.  I think I misspoke about my paramedic buddy.  He was saying that all I need is basic first aide, not that basic first aid would allow me to give IVs.

Thanks again to all that have helped so far.  I'm learning a lot.

Blake


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## Curious (Apr 18, 2008)

Another questions:

I know this would vary by location, but in general, what could I expect in terms of cost/time for each level of EMS certification?

Blake


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## medicdan (Apr 18, 2008)

EMT-Basic courses are mandates to be a minimum of 120 class hours, often structured as a night course twice a week (with a few weekend sessions), or full time for a few weeks. Courses range in cost significantly across the country, its worth checking to see what the range is in your area-- get in touch with your state's department of health for info.
Have you gotten in touch with other survival schools to see what they do? There are a whole bunch of wilderness medicine/wilderness survival schools around-- check out NOLS, SOLO, WMA, just to name a few. As others have mentioned, its worth being trained at least to the wilderness first aid level-- but if you are going for EMT, why not go for the wilderness component. I am taking a 5 day course in early May-- a wilderness upgrade for my EMT certification. 
Search on the forum for "wilderness" there have been a whole bunch of discussions of these issues over time.

Good Luck!


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## Curious (Apr 19, 2008)

Thank you.  I looked at those schools and they really look like what I need.  I think even if I just get the first aid training, the wilderness training to add to it will be a must.  Thanks for the help everyone.


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## mycrofft (Jun 17, 2008)

*Survival School...think outside the box, er, wilds*

First, can you impart these skills and mindsets without taking trainees into risky isolation? By definition, newbies are going to have accidents, and treating one serious case will stop the class cold for you and the rest of your trainees; skyrocket or cancel your insurance; maybe cost you any teaching certification permits; and get someone hurt, disabled or killed.  Consider using a seemingly remote yet actually quite accesible area, coordinate with local EMS and hospitals. Training injuries are sometimes justifiable, but training fatalities are well-nigh unjustifiable and could land you in the poor house or in prison. (See above). Educators will tell you a good part of effective teaching is showmanship, and most of a show is prep, rehearsal, and illusion. 

Second, get in touch with people who are doing this already and learn from them, maybe work for them. Not only will this give you an idea what it's really like, but help you get the "chops" (isn't that called "creds" now?) without which your students will tear you up.

Feel free to email me or just reply to this, i used to act as AVON and field medical support for Guard exercises.


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## KEVD18 (Jun 17, 2008)

uuuummm.....does anybody want to bring up the issue of service licensure or medical control?


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## mycrofft (Jun 18, 2008)

*KEVD, I believe you just did.*

Maybe go to Grenada or Islas Nublar.


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## KEVD18 (Jun 18, 2008)

true. i was sort of hoping someone in this posters state/county/service area could shed some light on the location specifics of it. if they arent in ma, i cant offer any direct knowledge and i dont do other people research for them unless im being paid.


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