# Forever 21 Security Puts Choke Hold On Deaf Customer



## MMiz (Aug 12, 2010)

*VIDEO: Forever 21 Security Puts Choke Hold On Deaf Customer*

Clothing store Forever 21 is under fire today over a YouTube video  showing a security guard for the store's Hollywood Blvd. outlet  wrestling a deaf customer to the ground and putting him into a choke  hold on the sidewalk.

Read more and watch the video!


Working in EMS I was always thrown for a loop with diabetic patients that were combative.  How would you communicate with a deaf patient?


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## Shishkabob (Aug 12, 2010)

Honestly the video doesn't prove anything and it doesn't show what lead up to it.


Having been in wrestling matches before with shoplifters, I'm inclined to side with the security.... stop them (safely) where you can once they leave the building and let the PD sort it out. 


We (be it consumer sales, EMS, LEO, whatever) cannot tell if someone is deaf or not just by looking at them walking, and it's even harder to do when you're wrestling (which security is generally allowed to do in the case of shop lifting)


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## JPINFV (Aug 13, 2010)

I hope that Forever 21 can prove that something was stolen, especially after the security guard pounced on the deaf man when the deaf man was in a purely defensive stance (see 1:32) and after committing battery on the other man who was trying to communicate that his friend was deaf.


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## Aidey (Aug 13, 2010)

MMiz said:


> Working in EMS I was always thrown for a loop with diabetic patients that were combative.  How would you communicate with a deaf patient?




Write generally. ASL uses the same alphabet and words that English does, but different grammar and sentence structure. Some Deaf people can write in both English and ALS Gloss, but some only write in ASL Gloss. Don't make the mistake of thinking that the seemingly poor grammar is a sign of lack of education. 

I know enough ASL to get me by. My sentiment on it is that they are the only people who can't help that they don't speak English.


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## adamjh3 (Aug 13, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> I hope that Forever 21 can proove that soemthing was stolen, especially after the security guard pounced on the deaf man when the deaf man was in a purely defensive stance (see 1:32) and after committing battery on the other man who was trying to communicate that his friend was deaf.



Me too, the alarm going off is definitely not probable cause. I see some serious assault, battery, and unlawful detention charges piling up in that doorway.


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## Shishkabob (Aug 13, 2010)

adamjh3 said:


> Me too, the alarm going off is definitely not probable cause. I see some serious assault, battery, and unlawful detention charges piling up in that doorway.




I suggest you look up the laws / case history of private store security and how they can handle crimes in the store.


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## MMiz (Aug 13, 2010)

Linuss said:


> I suggest you look up the laws / case history of private store security and how they can handle crimes in the store.


Linuss,

I'm trying not to take it personally, but I'm shocked that a medical provider would find it appropriate to place a person in a choke hold for shoplifting.  Every year I'm trained on handing and restraining individuals, and I've broken up many fights in my day, yet I have *never* choked or physically harmed a person.

This isn't about what's legal, that's not for you or me to decide, it's about what's morally and ethically acceptable.  I guess we don't share the same values.


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## adamjh3 (Aug 13, 2010)

Linuss said:


> I suggest you look up the laws / case history of private store security and how they can handle crimes in the store.



There's six elements to building probable cause that I learned at my former job

1.You must see the shoplifter approach the merchandise 
2.You must see the shoplifter select the merchandise 
3.You must see the shoplifter conceal or carry away the merchandise 
4.You must maintain continuous observation of the shoplifter 
5.You must observe the shoplifter fail to pay for the merchandise 
6.You must apprehend the shoplifter outside the store 

Without these you're opening yourself to a whole world of unlawful detention claims, especially in the sue-happy state of California where people threaten litigation for looking at their dog the wrong way.

Also, choking someone like that, especially if they have shown no signs of resistance is a whole new world of excessive force. He clearly signaled his ears several times, and the other shopper (deaf guy's friend?) clearly said he was deaf several times. I hate to second guess people when I wasn't there, but damn, that's just too much. 

Linuss, don't take any of this personally, I wish to keep this a friendly debate, as I respect you immensly.


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## Shishkabob (Aug 13, 2010)

MMiz said:


> Linuss,
> 
> I'm trying not to take it personally, but I'm shocked that a medical provider would find it appropriate to place a person in a choke hold for shoplifting.  Every year I'm trained on handing and restraining individuals, and I've broken up many fights in my day, yet I have *never* choked or physically harmed a person.
> 
> This isn't about what's legal, that's not for you or me to decide, it's about what's morally and ethically acceptable.  I guess we don't share the same values.



Where did I ever say the chokehold was ok?


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## Aidey (Aug 13, 2010)

adamjh3 said:


> There's six elements to building probable cause that I learned at my former job
> 
> 1.You must see the shoplifter approach the merchandise
> 2.You must see the shoplifter select the merchandise
> ...




There is what is supposed to happen, and what does. 

I once had a security guard lie to me and tell me he was a commissioned police officer and thus could force me to take a patient against their will. Turns out the only thing he was commissioned to do was write misdemeanor shoplifting tickets. The local LEO was NOT happy about the situation. 

I don't agree with the choke hold, but with the guard not knowing the patient was Deaf I can see why he decided to detain the man if the store alarm went off and he didn't respond when told to stop. 

And yeah, the guys friend was trying to tell them he was Deaf, more than a minute into the video. In the mean time he was running around and not doing much but aggravating the situation.


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## JPINFV (Aug 13, 2010)

Linuss said:


> Where did I ever say the chokehold was ok?





> Having been in wrestling matches before with shoplifters, I'm inclined to side with the security.... stop them (safely) where you can once they leave the building and let the PD sort it out.



So then you don't side with security in this case?


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## Shishkabob (Aug 13, 2010)

I was speaking solely of detaining them.  Never once did I mention HOW they did it.


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## CAOX3 (Aug 13, 2010)

Im no expert but dont you actually have to leave the store or does just concealing it make it theft?

And why does the article state the guy was deaf and hispanic as if that had any bearing on the event.

A rear naked choke seems a bit extreme, its a department store not the octagon.


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## Aidey (Aug 13, 2010)

You don't think the guy being Deaf had anything to do with the issue?


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## CAOX3 (Aug 13, 2010)

Aidey said:


> You don't think the guy being Deaf had anything to do with the issue?



Not sure the article didnt provide much info.


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## Hockey (Aug 13, 2010)

Basing it off the video (of course) only, if I was walking by, the security guy would have been seriously hurting after that

No minor bs property is worth a life.  Starts to really resist, let him go and call the police


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## Aidey (Aug 13, 2010)

CAOX3 said:


> Not sure the article didnt provide much info.



So let me get this straight, you don't think the guy not being able to hear anything didn't play a part at all? Like, maybe the security guard yelled at him and he didn't respond? Or that he really couldn't communicate with the security guard at all? 

You may want to do some research about some of the horrible encounters Deaf people have had with law enforcement simply because the LEO's assume the worst when they don't react to spoken commands.


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## CAOX3 (Aug 13, 2010)

Aidey said:


> So let me get this straight, you don't think the guy not being able to hear anything didn't play a part at all? Like, maybe the security guard yelled at him and he didn't respond? Or that he really couldn't communicate with the security guard at all?
> 
> You may want to do some research about some of the horrible encounters Deaf people have had with law enforcement simply because the LEO's assume the worst when they don't react to spoken commands.



Maybe....Are we making assumptions here?  

And when I need to get the attention of a person with a handicap it usually doesnt include a choke hold, his friend was with him and told the security guard he was deaf.


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## Aidey (Aug 13, 2010)

Doesn't that imply that the security guard knew the man was Deaf before he tackled him? The friend also can't be heard (or seen) saying that the man is Deaf until a minute an a half into the video. And honestly, if I hadn't seen the guy signing "deaf" I wouldn't have been able to tell what he was yelling. To me it sounded like he was saying "Jeff".


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## Aprz (Aug 13, 2010)

CAOX3 said:


> Im no expert but dont you actually have to leave the store or does just concealing it make it theft?


If you're wondering if they were outside, at 2:11, the camera rotates to the left, and you can see in the upper left hand corner that they are indeed outside of the store. They have really nice sidewalks!



Hockey said:


> No minor bs property is worth a life. Starts to really resist, let him go and call the police


That way we can talk smack about the police instead of the lost prevention officers for doing the same thing, or worse.

If these deaf guys escalated it to this point with security, how far do you think they could've escalated it with police, and what would the police done? I've seen the police have several men on top of a suspect and tase him because some criminals just don't stop... even for things that aren't very valuable at all. It's amazing what people can do.

By the way, 1:32 is blocked by bystanders. Also if you caught a criminal, and restrained him, wouldn't you except him to get into a defensive position (when that's all he can do), and attempt to escape when he can (such as what this guy clearly does several times)?





After observing the video several times, I don't side with anybody. The video starts with the guy being in a choke hold. If the security guard did immediately start using excessive force, I wouldn't know, and I definitely not gonna take this Youtube guys word for it. At the same time, I could understand how the lost preventions officers could've tried stopping them in a less excessive manner "Hey you! Stop!", nada, touch him and say "What are you doing?! Stop!", maybe the deaf guy freaks like "Why the hell is this dude touching me?! How dare you!" sort of thing, struggle, and end up in a choke hold eventually cause he's defending/escape (I would try to escape from a guy trying to hold me down or stop me from moving) himself while the lost prevention officer tries to stop him. In the video after 1:00, you can see that they go through several position of restraining the guy, choke hold wasn't the only restrained method. Looks like one big mess, big misunderstanding, and unless I knew more, I don't have enough information to side with anybody. I dislike that people are hating the lost prevention officers with lack of information, and I believe the police could've done the same thing as the lost prevention officer, and end up being in these lost prevention officers shoes instead right now, and here we could be talking about how the cops used excessive force instead. I just dislike this whole thing.


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## MMiz (Aug 13, 2010)

I don't have the facts, but this is how I imagined it:

Alarm goes off, or security guard tells men to stop so he can check something.  They, being deaf, disregard his instructions and keep walking.  The security guard, not in a guard uniform, makes physical contact with the deaf person as a means of stopping him.  Due to the communication barrier and the lack of a formal guard uniform the deaf alleged shoplifter becomes fearful and is combative.  Then once it starts it's too late to stop.

I posted this in an EMS community because I often catch myself off guard with diabetic patients.  Is it a stroke?  Are they on drugs?  Why are they so hostile and combative?  Seriously, I have gotten in heated arguments with diabetic patients only to later treat the patient and see their condition return to a normal state.

Just some food for thought.


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## Aprz (Aug 13, 2010)

MMiz said:


> Just some food for thought.


Yummy, haha.

Yeh, I didn't even think about that lost prevention officer not being in uniform. That could definitely have contributed to what happened.


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## bstone (Aug 13, 2010)

What a shockingly horrifying video of battery against a deaf person. I hope that rent-a-cop goes to jail.


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## jjesusfreak01 (Aug 13, 2010)

I think the best story I have read so far by some bystanders is that the deaf men walked out of the store and the security guard immediately tackled him because he thought they were shoplifting rather than tap them on the shoulder and ask to see the receipt (which of course they still don't have give him). Like the other posters said, the guard has absolutely no power to do anything unless he actually witnessed the theft. A crappy alarm system dinging because the cashier didn't deactivate tags properly is no cause for battery. 

It is possible that they did shoplift, but again, that changes nothing. Unless the guard SAW them do it, he should be off to jail right now. He is obviously neither qualified nor trained properly to take down anyone safely.


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## Phlipper (Aug 13, 2010)

> Basing it off the video (of course) only, if I was walking by, the security guy would have been seriously hurting after that



+1 

That was total BS from everything I have read/heard about it.  Homeboy with the choke hold would have been eating boot stat if I was walking by.  Hope they sue his *** into next week.


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## bstone (Aug 20, 2010)

> Rea's lawyer, John Henrichs, is threatening to sue the store for using excessive force and causing injuries to Rea, something Forever 21 acknowledged in a statement.
> 
> "We recognize that the security guard used excessive force, which is against our store policy and have suspended him indefinitely," the store said in a news release.



Source: http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/08/19/california.deaf.shoplifting.arrest/index.html?hpt=T2

At least they are admitting fault. Probably not a bad idea to admit they are wrong.


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## mar7967 (Aug 20, 2010)

Focusing on the deaf part of this story, the area I am in has a lot of deaf people. The university I go to had a college for the deaf. I am on the collegiate EMS agency, and a good percentage (30-50 is would say) of our patients are deaf. Sometimes we get an on-call interpreter, others we don't. Some of us know basic sign language, others don't. If needed, we just use old fashioned pen and paper to communicate, or see if any of the pt's friends, etc can interpret for us.


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## emt seeking first job (Aug 22, 2010)

Even though I did not review all the facts, they can only affect a citizen's arrest if they witness the person steal the item.

If the alarm goes off, they can ask to stop and co-operate with a search but the person need not agree to comply.

A security guard, ie, citizen can only arrest someone in an in-fact scenario, ie, witness, not on reason to believe....


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## emt seeking first job (Aug 22, 2010)

bstone said:


> Source: http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/08/19/california.deaf.shoplifting.arrest/index.html?hpt=T2
> 
> At least they are admitting fault. Probably not a bad idea to admit they are wrong.




It seems like many organizations fail to ascertain upon hiring whether their security people can follow simple protocols......


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## emt seeking first job (Aug 22, 2010)

Linuss said:


> Honestly the video doesn't prove anything and it doesn't show what lead up to it.
> 
> 
> Having been in wrestling matches before with shoplifters, I'm inclined to side with the security.... stop them (safely) where you can once they leave the building and let the PD sort it out.
> ...



Did the security guard witness the actual theft ?

That is the crux of it.

Also, no LEO or security person is ever authorized to use a choke hold.....


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## emt seeking first job (Aug 22, 2010)

Aidey said:


> There is what is supposed to happen, and what does.
> 
> I once had a security guard lie to me and tell me he was a commissioned police officer and thus could force me to take a patient against their will. Turns out the only thing he was commissioned to do was write misdemeanor shoplifting tickets. The local LEO was NOT happy about the situation.
> 
> ...




What security is commisioned to write shoplifting tickets......?

In new york state, you either have peace/police status or not, not for selective offenses......

And only difference police/peace is re: warrents and status off duty..


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## Aidey (Aug 22, 2010)

I'm not in NY state. There is probably a difference in state laws. Per the local police security at many of the large businesses here have the ability to write certain misdemeanor tickets. If the theft is over a certain amount or the person is violent they have to call the police.


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