# Cardiology III for a new EMT-B...Overkill??



## kr804573 (Jul 23, 2011)

Hi everyone, 
      I’m just finishing my EMT-B training, I’m currently an EMR (also called an MRT or First Responder), and am going to begin riding with a service soon. I have a Sprague Rappaport-type stethoscope and absolutely hate it, the tubes clank together and the way it fits in your ears is uncomfortable. I can find a BP but sometimes it isn’t loud at all. Everyone I’ve talked to says to go for a Littmann so thats defiantly the path I want to take. While researching I looked at the lower end Steths, the don’t have the features I would like. The feature I’m looking for is two sided diaphragm(seeing as Littmann’s are tuneable theres no need for only a bell on one side). The Cardiology III seemed like the only one with this. What is your opinion.... is this over-kill A.k.a too good of a Steth for a newbie? 
thanks


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## JPINFV (Jul 23, 2011)

Littmann Cardio III is a great scope, but I do think it's overpowered for an EMT. 

A few  quick things to think about:

1. What are you going to be using it for? Do you really need a powerful steth for blood pressures and lung sounds? How soon do you think you're going to learn about heart tones, and just as important, what are you planning on doing with that information?

2. How often can you replace it? Some things, like scopes and shears, like to grow legs and walk. 

3. What are the other options out there?

4. August is coming up, which means medical schools are starting back up. Are there any medical schools near you where you can go to their vendor fair and see what other options are available as well as get a chance to play around with the current product lines?


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## kr804573 (Jul 23, 2011)

JPINFV,
Thanks for the input! Like I said what I have now just isn’t cutting it for me. My instructor bought in many scopes, the Cardiology III amoung them, and I just took to it very quickly which is why I’m thinking about buying one. If not this scope which would you suggest?


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## DrParasite (Jul 23, 2011)

Cadio III is pretty overkill for a new EMT.

I like the Littmann Master Classic II myself. I have used it for years.  Had to replace it once after it walked (note to self, never leave scope in the ambulance over night, despite that it had my name on it).

If you want a newbie scope, go on ebay, you can find some decent knock off scopes for maybe half or a third of the price.  Plus learning the proper assessment techniques is better than getting better tools to compensate for poor skills

get a cheapy to start, after you have been doing this for a year or two, than upgrade to the expensive scope.  

Just my $0.02


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## kr804573 (Jul 23, 2011)

I’ve had this cheap scope for a few months because everyone said to start cheap, which I agree with, but we’ve done all the skills and nows the time to upgrade even just a little. As far as Littmann’s go how is the Classic II S.E.? ' the only other one I’m interested in even though it doesn't have 2 diaphragms.


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## exodus (Jul 23, 2011)

kr804573 said:


> I’ve had this cheap scope for a few months because everyone said to start cheap, which I agree with, but we’ve done all the skills and nows the time to upgrade even just a little. As far as Littmann’s go how is the Classic II S.E.? ' the only other one I’m interested in even though it doesn't have 2 diaphragms.



I loved my Classic II SE before it walked off.  I had the Tacticool Black edition


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## sirengirl (Jul 23, 2011)

kr804573 said:


> I’ve had this cheap scope for a few months because everyone said to start cheap, which I agree with, but we’ve done all the skills and nows the time to upgrade even just a little. As far as Littmann’s go how is the Classic II S.E.? ' the only other one I’m interested in even though it doesn't have 2 diaphragms.



I love mine. Never had a problem- and I purposefully bought it in a raspberry color so none of the boys would feel a huge itch'n to borrow it. I'm currently looking into getting a second and third pair for myself right now- a second cheaper pair for my car kit and a third good set for 'medic school. I'm pretty much set on getting an ADC for my car- They're often compared to the Littmanns and right now I can get one on allheart for under $20 that's about the same as my current one. My third, I'm looking into getting the Littmann Master Classic. A lot of people in a lot of threads on this site swear by that model, and I can get it in the stealth black ^_^

Hope I helped.


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## kr804573 (Jul 23, 2011)

exodus said:


> I loved my Classic II SE before it walked off.  I had the Tacticool Black edition



Did you ever actually use the bell side? I just feel like its useless, I know it’s used for lower tones but if the diaphragm is tunable then what’s the point?


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## kr804573 (Jul 23, 2011)

sirengirl said:


> I love mine. Never had a problem- and I purposefully bought it in a raspberry color so none of the boys would feel a huge itch'n to borrow it. I'm currently looking into getting a second and third pair for myself right now- a second cheaper pair for my car kit and a third good set for 'medic school. I'm pretty much set on getting an ADC for my car- They're often compared to the Littmanns and right now I can get one on allheart for under $20 that's about the same as my current one. My third, I'm looking into getting the Littmann Master Classic. A lot of people in a lot of threads on this site swear by that model, and I can get it in the stealth black ^_^
> 
> Hope I helped.



Defiantly a big help! Good idea with the color as well, I might have to take that idea from you !


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## sirengirl (Jul 23, 2011)

kr804573 said:


> Defiantly a big help! Good idea with the color as well, I might have to take that idea from you !



I actually had a week long debate with myself over what color to get- the raspberry pink/purple or the greenish teal color. My favorite color is a nice sea green teal, but I figured that would appeal to the guys too much so I went with the pink. I already know I'mma have to watch my stealth black one like a friggin' hawk....

But yea like I said, these are pretty comparable to Littmanns. Obviously I encourage getting something better if you want to but as far as price goes, you can't beat near-Littmann quality for $20. Hopefully I can get the Master Classic under $100, that's my current goal...


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## kr804573 (Jul 23, 2011)

sirengirl said:


> I actually had a week long debate with myself over what color to get- the raspberry pink/purple or the greenish teal color. My favorite color is a nice sea green teal, but I figured that would appeal to the guys too much so I went with the pink. I already know I'mma have to watch my stealth black one like a friggin' hawk....
> 
> But yea like I said, these are pretty comparable to Littmanns. Obviously I encourage getting something better if you want to but as far as price goes, you can't beat near-Littmann quality for $20. Hopefully I can get the Master Classic under $100, that's my current goal...




I’ve been looking every where to get them cheap, Ebay has lots of them New and used, you could also try craigslist but those are usually used ^_^


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## sirengirl (Jul 23, 2011)

kr804573 said:


> I’ve been looking every where to get them cheap, Ebay has lots of them New and used, you could also try craigslist but those are usually used ^_^



I'm actually pretty mad at myself, I found one on amazon that was being sold by a guy who said he'd used it less than 5 times before quitting the class, and he was selling it dirt cheap at like $65, when I went back to get it, it was gone. FML moment... There's one on e-bay I'm looking at, same case but a bit more.... We'll see how that goes cause the auction ends today.

So are you perhaps changing your mind on which one you want? I found a nice infographic once, a chart comparing all the different current Littmanns against each other...

Here it is! http://www.allheart.com/littmann-stethoscope-comparison.html


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## kr804573 (Jul 23, 2011)

sirengirl said:


> I'm actually pretty mad at myself, I found one on amazon that was being sold by a guy who said he'd used it less than 5 times before quitting the class, and he was selling it dirt cheap at like $65, when I went back to get it, it was gone. FML moment... There's one on e-bay I'm looking at, same case but a bit more.... We'll see how that goes cause the auction ends today.
> 
> So are you perhaps changing your mind on which one you want? I found a nice infographic once, a chart comparing all the different current Littmanns against each other...




I have changed my mind, I don’t want to show up with a Cardiology III and look like an idiot! Anyway it doesn’t seem like its really needed, sounds like any good Littmann will do, such as the Classic II SE. My birthday is coming up so I’m going to see if I can get away with getting it as a present from my parents, for my 16th, rather than having to pay for it.

I throughly enjoyed the chart though , puts it all in perspective!


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## exodus (Jul 23, 2011)

kr804573 said:


> Did you ever actually use the bell side? I just feel like its useless, I know it’s used for lower tones but if the diaphragm is tunable then what’s the point?



Oops. I meant MASTERS classic II SE.. only one sided.


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## sirengirl (Jul 23, 2011)

kr804573 said:


> I have changed my mind, I don’t want to show up with a Cardiology III and look like an idiot! Anyway it doesn’t seem like its really needed, sounds like any good Littmann will do, such as the Classic II SE. My birthday is coming up so I’m going to see if I can get away with getting it as a present from my parents, for my 16th, rather than having to pay for it



I added the link to my previous post for you. As I said, I love my Classic S.E. II, I'm only upgrading because I'm starting 'medic in 4 weeks and want something good for heart sounds. After all, there was that time the military told me that I'm deaf, so... 

And, the heck?! You're only 15? Wow, where in the world did you get to go through EMT-B at that young an age? Here in FL you gotta be 18 by the time you do your clinicals. Liability issues, I'm sure. Well geeze, kudos to you if that's the case. I'm young at 21 and I still kick myself over not doing it all 3 years ago when I could have gotten it paid for by my highschool.... Happy early b-day btw.

Also: Let people know if they do decide to get it for you, medisave.net will be the cheapest place to find them. That or by some grace of god on amazon/ebay/craigslist, but good luck finding the color you want there...


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## kr804573 (Jul 23, 2011)

exodus said:


> Oops. I meant MASTERS classic II SE.. only one sided.



 then you really could not use the other side even if you wanted to!!! Haha


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## kr804573 (Jul 23, 2011)

sirengirl said:


> I added the link to my previous post for you. As I said, I love my Classic S.E. II, I'm only upgrading because I'm starting 'medic in 4 weeks and want something good for heart sounds. After all, there was that time the military told me that I'm deaf, so...
> 
> And, the heck?! You're only 15? Wow, where in the world did you get to go through EMT-B at that young an age? Here in FL you gotta be 18 by the time you do your clinicals. Liability issues, I'm sure. Well geeze, kudos to you if that's the case. I'm young at 21 and I still kick myself over not doing it all 3 years ago when I could have gotten it paid for by my highschool.... Happy early b-day btw.
> 
> Also: Let people know if they do decide to get it for you, medisave.net will be the cheapest place to find them. That or by some grace of god on amazon/ebay/craigslist, but good luck finding the color you want there...



In CT you only have to be 16 by the time the class ends to get an EMT-B, my class ends at the end of August and my Birthday is August 2nd so Im all set! we dont have many young EMT’s in my area but suddenly it’s picked up. I wish my high school paid but i paid for it with money i had saved and started taking the classes at night during the school year, along with sports, it was challenging but now im almost done! The birthday think is going to be used as leverage for a new scope lol


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## sirengirl (Jul 23, 2011)

kr804573 said:


> In CT you only have to be 16 by the time the class ends to get an EMT-B, my class ends at the end of August and my Birthday is August 2nd so Im all set! we dont have many young EMT’s in my area but suddenly it’s picked up. I wish my high school paid but i paid for it with money i had saved and started taking the classes at night during the school year, along with sports, it was challenging but now im almost done! The birthday think is going to be used as leverage for a new scope lol



Wow that's awesome. And yea, the highschools around here have dual-enrollment programs, so if you want to do tech school or community college at night, you don't have to pay for the classes, and I don't think the books, either. Why I didn't do it, I'll never know...


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## JPINFV (Jul 23, 2011)

kr804573 said:


> Did you ever actually use the bell side? I just feel like its useless, I know it’s used for lower tones but if the diaphragm is tunable then what’s the point?



The bell is best to use for low pitched sounds... like korotkoff sounds.


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## JPINFV (Jul 23, 2011)

sirengirl said:


> And, the heck?! You're only 15? Wow, where in the world did you get to go through EMT-B at that young an age? Here in FL you gotta be 18 by the time you do your clinicals.



It depends on the state. In California you can take the class before you're 18, but you won't be certified until you're 18 (which is useful for high school seniors taking it through their high school).


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## kr804573 (Jul 23, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> The bell is best to use for low pitched sounds... like korotkoff sounds.



I know that, but if you have a tunable diaphragm why would you need it, it is a bell and a diaphragm together


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## JPINFV (Jul 23, 2011)

kr804573 said:


> I know that, but if you have a tunable diaphragm why would you need it, it is a bell and a diaphragm together




..very true.


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## sirengirl (Jul 23, 2011)

sirengirl said:


> There's one on e-bay I'm looking at, same case but a bit more.... We'll see how that goes cause the auction ends today.



YES!!!! Won the auction!!! Master Classic II stealth edition for $76 total!!! :beerchug: hizzell yeah!


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## rwik123 (Jul 23, 2011)

sirengirl said:


> YES!!!! Won the auction!!! Master Classic II stealth edition for $76 total!!! :beerchug: hizzell yeah!



Sooooooooo fresh!


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## Strap (Jul 23, 2011)

kr804573 said:


> I know that, but if you have a tunable diaphragm why would you need it, it is a bell and a diaphragm together



I've got the Littmann Classic II SE and it's got a tunable diaphragm. It's also got a bell side, or what looks like a bell side. Granted I'm really new at all this, but I've never heard the slightest sound out of that side. I had about reached the conclusion that although it looks like a bell, it's really just there as a knob to hold the stethoscope with. :unsure:


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## nemedic (Jul 23, 2011)

Strap said:


> I've got the Littmann Classic II SE and it's got a tunable diaphragm. It's also got a bell side, or what looks like a bell side. Granted I'm really new at all this, but I've never heard the slightest sound out of that side. I had about reached the conclusion that although it looks like a bell, it's really just there as a knob to hold the stethoscope with. :unsure:



Try rotating the head on the scope. Should hear a click. That's how you switch sides IIRC


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## kr804573 (Jul 24, 2011)

sirengirl said:


> yes!!!! Won the auction!!! Master classic ii stealth edition for $76 total!!! :beerchug: Hizzell yeah!



congrats!!!!!!!!!


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## Strap (Jul 24, 2011)

nemedic said:


> Try rotating the head on the scope. Should hear a click. That's how you switch sides IIRC



That worked! Thanks! I'm not sure what I'll do with my newly-found bell side, but at least I know how to make it work.


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## kr804573 (Jul 24, 2011)

Strap said:


> That worked! Thanks! I'm not sure what I'll do with my newly-found bell side, but at least I know how to make it work.



yeah the whole concept is kind of screwed up, if you have a tuneable diaphragm why the hell would you need a bell side? How is the scope overall?


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## JPINFV (Jul 24, 2011)

kr804573 said:


> yeah the whole concept is kind of screwed up, if you have a tuneable diaphragm why the hell would you need a bell side?



Personal preference for one.


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## kr804573 (Jul 24, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> Personal preference for one.


 
very true


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## Tigger (Jul 25, 2011)

kr804573 said:


> I’ve had this cheap scope for a few months because everyone said to start cheap, which I agree with, but we’ve done all the skills and nows the time to upgrade even just a little. As far as Littmann’s go how is the Classic II S.E.? ' the only other one I’m interested in even though it doesn't have 2 diaphragms.



I have never used the bell side on my Classic II. I think it is a great scope, should last for years. I figure if it's good enough for my PCP and three of the doctors that I regularly work with in Sports Medicine, it's more than adequate for me.


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## bigbaldguy (Jul 25, 2011)

nemedic said:


> Try rotating the head on the scope. Should hear a click. That's how you switch sides IIRC



This 
It took me several weeks to figure this out.


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## pa132399 (Jul 25, 2011)

i started using a cheapo scope and said i could hear just as good as my moms littman master caridology. then she let me use hers for the last yr and half while she was in PA school and now i have the one from her college thats a welch allen maybe i hate it. it absolutely sucks compared to the littman now im set out to buy the master cardiology black edition i guess i got spoilied but the one i have now sucks


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## dixie_flatline (Jul 25, 2011)

It's been discussed a thousand times in a million previous stethoscope threads, but that's fine.

I have a ninja-blacked out Master Classic II, and I enjoy the hell out of it. As a basic the most I ever do is BP and/or breath sounds - I'm not listening for a clicky MVP or anything.  That said, the single-sided head offers a lot of convenience if you ask me.  It is tunable, as has already been mentioned of the Littmanns in this thread, so with some practice you should be able to auscultate just about anything you should need to hear.  Plus, it is thin and easy to manuever around, I don't have to worry about putting a finger on the other side and getting extraneous sound pollution, and I don't have to worry that the head got turned around in my bag or pocket - I know without checking that it's always 'set' to the correct side.

I know a few medics that carry Cardio III scopes, but that's about it.  Hell, being a fire-based EMT, most of the full-timers don't even carry their own scopes (ambulance duty is akin to a punishment for most).

At 15/16, I can see no reason for you to carry a Littmann.  I was 4 and a half different people between the ages of 16 and 21 - it's too early to tell if your love affair with EMS is a teenage romance or a full-fledged relationship. If you can't afford to lose it, don't carry it yet.


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## douglasfire20 (Jul 25, 2011)

I have used both the Cardio III and the ClassicII. My personal preference is the Classic II but thats just me.


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## Addicted2Narcan (Jul 26, 2011)

Yes, it's overkill. You don't need to know nor do you know anything about murmurs and the much cheaper and more durable Classic II can hear breath sounds and blood pressures just as well. Save your money cuz odds are someone will steal your scope eventually.


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## 18G (Jul 26, 2011)

I have had a Cardiology III for about 10yrs and it is decent but I don't feel it's worth the $$$ I paid for it. As an EMT I would not recommend investing in a III unless you plan on going into Paramedic school real soon. 

You can get a great scope for a lot less.


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## Frozennoodle (Jul 26, 2011)

I use a Littman Lightweight.  I bought it off Amazon for $35.00.  Great little scope for the cost.  Good for taking blood pressures and fair for listening to lung sounds but you're not going to be diagnosing cardiac conditions with it (though I did catch muffled heart tones for a cardiac tamponde patient).


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## EMTSTUDENT25 (Aug 7, 2011)

For the record im just a little basic but heres my input...

Ive used a couple of the littmann scopes, both work well...Ive got a sprague that came with my BP cuff which also does the job.  Personally, I think there are many different things to think about when getting one...If I get a nice one, will it disapear?  What do you NEED to do your job? etc...

So many of the people I've talked to, myself included, can get extreme tunnel vision on GEAR that we forget about the basic neccessities.  I was given a Master Cardio for a present after passing basic school, and even though I'm still not employed, I know I'll be nervous to take it in to work as it is...

I know we were not trained on different heart sounds, so I'm only using about 10% of what that scope is made for!  If you've got the money to blow, go wild, however dont feal like you need to get a $200 scope to get the job done.  Hope that all made sense.


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## pa132399 (Aug 7, 2011)

i feel very lucky my mom was able to get a master cardiology for free from one of her classmates that just bought a new scope so i will once again have a good scope. which will be great for medic school


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## fortsmithman (Aug 7, 2011)

My service recently replaced the Litmanns we had in our trauma bags in both our units with the Littman Cardiology 3.   Currently we have 2 trauma bags on each of our two units.


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## CheifBud (Aug 7, 2011)

Lit. Classic Lightweight S.E. II is what I rock and solely for the fact that I can beat the hell out of, lose, and sometime use as a whip to keep lions at bay and I can still hear my patients thinking (unless I lost it then I'm just going crazy hearing things) and not only that but I can do this 8-10 times over before approaching the cost of a Master Classic or Cardiology III.

In an Emergency situation I am prepared to lose anything I have or carry with me except my patient  which Is why I go as cheap and practical as I can within reasonable operating limits for most my supplies or even personal Items like a $5 watch instead of my Bulova watch, shoot even underwear that I've ripped I now get cheap.... well you get the point.


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## CheifBud (Aug 7, 2011)

fortsmithman said:


> My service recently replaced the Litmanns we had in our trauma bags in both our units with the Littman Cardiology 3.   Currently we have 2 trauma bags on each of our two units.



Luuucckkyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy :glare:


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## fortsmithman (Aug 7, 2011)

CheifBud said:


> Luuucckkyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy :glare:



We had money in the budget.


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## CheifBud (Aug 8, 2011)

Oh well in that case......

Super Luckyyyyyyyyyyyyy :glare:


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## abckidsmom (Aug 8, 2011)

CheifBud said:


> Lit. Classic Lightweight S.E. II is what I rock and solely for the fact that I can beat the hell out of, lose, and sometime use as a whip to keep lions at bay and I can still hear my patients thinking (unless I lost it then I'm just going crazy hearing things) and not only that but I can do this 8-10 times over before approaching the cost of a Master Classic or Cardiology III.
> 
> In an Emergency situation I am prepared to lose anything I have or carry with me except my patient  which Is why I go as cheap and practical as I can within reasonable operating limits for most my supplies or even personal Items like a $5 watch instead of my Bulova watch, shoot even underwear that I've ripped I now get cheap.... well you get the point.



I totally agree with everything you say except the cheap underwear part.  I don't wear cheap underwear, lol.


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## Akulahawk (Aug 8, 2011)

I currently have a Littman Light and a Cardiology III. Love them both for different reasons. I've rarely been unable to hear what I need to listen for when using either one... If _I_ couldn't hear it... very few others could either.


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