# EMT Oath- My problem



## WickedGood (Jan 24, 2013)

I am getting ready to graduate from a 2 year paramedic program in May.  We are the first year this Community College has had an associate program and I am assuming there will be about 15 of us to graduate.  We are having a pinning ceremony separate from the main college walk-the-stage graduation.
My teacher has posted the EMT Oath.  For those of you who don't know what this is:

Be it pledged as an Emergency Medical Technician, I will honor the physical and judicial laws of God and man. I will follow that regimen which, according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of my patients and abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous, nor shall I suggest any such counsel. Into whatever home I enter, I will go into them for the benefit of only the sick and injured, never revealing what I see or hear in the lives of men.

I shall also share my medical knowledge with those who may benefit from what I have learned. I will serve unselfishly and continuously in order to help make a better world for all mankind.

While I continue to keep this oath unviolated, may it be granted to me to enjoy life, and the practice of the art, respected by all men, in all times. Should I trespass or violate this oath, may the reverse be my lot. So help me God.

Written by Charles B. Gillespie, M.D.; Albany, Georgia 


Is this something that any of you have had to say at pinning ceremonies?  Is is something required of Paramedics?  I am a little offended that my publicly funded Community College is making us recite something that makes us pledge ourselves to "Gods Law...So help me God."  I know there has been some atheist discussions in here?  So fellow atheists?  What have you done? Spoken up?  Just stood there and not said the words?  Or just say it and it doesn't matter?  Or just skip pinning all together?  I live in the Bible-thumping south so I know that by saying something it will piss folks off.  On the other hand, my parents raised me to stand up for myself and for others who could not.  I'm down with taking an Oath.  I'd love to do something like the "Declaration of Geneva"  Here it is:
AT THE TIME OF BEING ADMITTED AS A MEMBER OF THE MEDICAL PROFESSION:

    I SOLEMNLY PLEDGE to consecrate my life to the service of humanity;
    I WILL GIVE to my teachers the respect and gratitude that is their due;
    I WILL PRACTICE my profession with conscience and dignity;
    THE HEALTH OF MY PATIENT will be my first consideration;
    I WILL RESPECT the secrets that are confided in me, even after the patient has died;
    I WILL MAINTAIN by all the means in my power, the honour and the noble traditions of the medical profession;
    MY COLLEAGUES will be my sisters and brothers;
    I WILL NOT PERMIT considerations of age, disease or disability, creed, ethnic origin, gender, nationality, political affiliation, race, sexual orientation, social standing or any other factor to intervene between my duty and my patient;
    I WILL MAINTAIN the utmost respect for human life;
    I WILL NOT USE my medical knowledge to violate human rights and civil liberties, even under threat;
    I MAKE THESE PROMISES solemnly, freely and upon my honour.

Ok fellow medical professionals--  Let your thoughts roll


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## Aidey (Jan 24, 2013)

There is an EMT oath? *eyeroll*

I know my school hasn't had such nonsense.


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## CANDawg (Jan 24, 2013)

This seems a bit over the top. Haven't heard of anything like it before. 

That said, the God references aren't anything more extensive than the American Oath of Allegiance, or even the Sworn Testimony Oath in a courtroom... Do you feel uncomfortable with those?

Quite frankly, a reference to 'God' should only offend atheists. Pretty much every other religion has a figure they can ascribe to that term, so it is pretty widely accepted.


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## Gastudent (Jan 24, 2013)

In my opinion it's not that big of a deal. It's not like they are asking you to join a cult or something. If you are looking for advice I would say just say the oath tell them to have a nice day and go on with your life; Or you can flat out refuse. I don't think they will not let you graduate for it. Your choice really.


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## RocketMedic (Jan 24, 2013)

Dont drink the Kool Aid first...


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## Gastudent (Jan 24, 2013)

Rocketmedic40 said:


> Dont drink the Kool Aid first...



But what if you like kool aid?????


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## Chief Complaint (Jan 25, 2013)

EMT oath?  Lol.

If you don't like it, don't say it.


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## epipusher (Jan 25, 2013)

cross your fingers during that part


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## JPINFV (Jan 25, 2013)

Umm... so don't say that part.


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## Medic Tim (Jan 25, 2013)

epipusher said:


> cross your fingers during that part



Lol this.^^^

Seriously though I facepalmed when I read the words emt oath. 

I have never heard of an emt or Medic oath before. I wouldn't say it because it is stupid and I would feel like an idiot. God has nothing to do with it.


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## titmouse (Jan 25, 2013)

I never say the god part in anything. So darth vader help me.


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## WolfmanHarris (Jan 25, 2013)

I'll leave aside what I think of the oath itself. As a fundamentalist agnostic my approach during prayer, grace or similar is to just practice respectful silence. The words don't mean anything to me, so they have no impact, but to the people who do believe it means a lot. Out of respect for them I stay silent or now my head. I don't feel oppressed or offended and the benefit to myself of causing a stir does not outweigh the harm to those that believe.


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## JeffDHMC (Jan 25, 2013)

I try really hard to abstain from getting involved in, or contributing to, anything negative at all here. I mostly try to stick to advice regarding EMS in the Denver metro area or the service I work for directly. I also have a touch of experience at the state level so I may (likely not) chime in there from time to time. All that being said; one step behind EMS tattoos I think that may be the silliest EMS related thing I've come across. Well, all the t-shirts that are peddled at the state EMS conference are really bad, so we'll call the oath number three. I think that's fair.


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## Tigger (Jan 25, 2013)

JeffDHMC said:


> I try really hard to abstain from getting involved in, or contributing to, anything negative at all here. I mostly try to stick to advice regarding EMS in the Denver metro area or the service I work for directly. I also have a touch of experience at the state level so I may (likely not) chime in there from time to time. All that being said; one step behind EMS tattoos I think that may be the silliest EMS related thing I've come across. Well, all the t-shirts that are peddled at the state EMS conference are really bad, so we'll call the oath number three. I think that's fair.



I was hoping that horrible EMS shirts hadn't made it to Colorado yet, then I went to a bar in C Springs last night and saw a guy wearing a star of life polo that said "We do it so others might live." in large letters on the back below a stylized star of life. Star of life on the breast pocket, star of life hat, shirt tucked over large gut into jeans, and black duty boots to round it out.

fklasdjfkl;dsafksdal;jfk;l VOMIT.


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## JeffDHMC (Jan 25, 2013)

You've yet to attend the state EMS conference I see.


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## Sandog (Jan 25, 2013)

Just hum a few bars...  :rofl:


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## Tigger (Jan 25, 2013)

JeffDHMC said:


> You've yet to attend the state EMS conference I see.



No, perhaps I should just stay away.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jan 25, 2013)

_"I am a little offended that my publicly funded Community College is making us recite something that makes us pledge ourselves to "Gods Law...So help me God."_

I agree and I would refuse to say it. The easy way is just not to recite it. If they want to make a big stink of it there are plenty of large powerful groups and lawyers who might help you out for free.


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## mgr22 (Jan 25, 2013)

To the OP, just roll with it, and go on believing whatever you wish to believe. I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time you've had to follow a rule you didn't necessarily agree with. Ask yourself if it's really worth taking a stand on this issue.


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## Aidey (Jan 25, 2013)

"just roll with it" is great advice for a minority population. There is zero reason he should have to "roll with it" and pledge something that he doesn't believe.


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## mgr22 (Jan 25, 2013)

Aidey said:


> "just roll with it" is great advice for a minority population. There is zero reason he should have to "roll with it" and pledge something that he doesn't believe.



I didn't tell him to pledge anything. I suggested he find a way of getting from Point A to Point B with a minimum of fuss. How much of an accommodation he makes is up to him.


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## Veneficus (Jan 25, 2013)

*Has anybody...*

Actually talked to the program coordinator about it?

It looks like a variation of the modern Hippocratic oath for physicians.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6kgS_AwuH0


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jan 25, 2013)

Ya I like the Pirate oath better


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## WickedGood (Jan 25, 2013)

Nope, have not talked to coordinator about it.  He is very southern, very christian and very republican.  I'm not sure I want to get into it-- that's part of the reason I was looking for some other's experiences on this forum  ;o)

The hippocratic oath does not mention gods, goddesses or god any longer. 
The Declaration of Geneva is far more widely used these days anyway. I posted that on my OP.  And I'd be totally ok with saying that at our graduation.


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## Veneficus (Jan 25, 2013)

WickedGood said:


> Nope, have not talked to coordinator about it.  He is very southern, very christian and very republican.  I'm not sure I want to get into it-- that's part of the reason I was looking for some other's experiences on this forum  ;o)
> 
> The hippocratic oath does not mention gods, goddesses or god any longer.
> The Declaration of Geneva is far more widely used these days anyway. I posted that on my OP.  And I'd be totally ok with saying that at our graduation.



I took the original oath, I do not believe in Apollo, I would perform an abortion. Chemically or surgically.


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## Christopher (Jan 25, 2013)

WickedGood said:


> Nope, have not talked to coordinator about it.  He is very southern, very christian and very republican.  I'm not sure I want to get into it-- that's part of the reason I was looking for some other's experiences on this forum  ;o)



Welcome to the dirty south.

I usually tell them that my religion forbids me making oaths before false idols. Any question gets the same reply, "I'm sorry but my church doesn't believe that."

If they ask which church, "Second Baptist Son of the Adventist, but we've got rid of the snakes. May God have mercy on those poor souls that went before us."


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## EpiEMS (Jan 25, 2013)

I'm neither from the South nor have I been required to take such an oath. However, if I were to encounter one, my first choice would be to ask if the program could use an alternative oath -- one that doesn't make religious references. If I were concerned about an intolerant and/or stubborn program director, I would simply say the oath and omit any religious references.

Granted, I think an oath is a little bit much. A nice idea, but whackerish if done poorly.


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## Summit (Jan 25, 2013)

Unless you think it will mess with employment prospects, I'd wait and object after everything else is 100% sorted for your graduation.


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## Veneficus (Jan 25, 2013)

If it is that big of a deal to recite something you don't believe in, just call in sick and skip the whole thing.


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## Aidey (Jan 25, 2013)

Christopher said:


> Welcome to the dirty south.
> 
> I usually tell them that my religion forbids me making oaths before false idols. Any question gets the same reply, "I'm sorry but my church doesn't believe that."
> 
> If they ask which church, "Second Baptist Son of the Adventist, but we've got rid of the snakes. May God have mercy on those poor souls that went before us."



*snicker*


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## medichopeful (Jan 25, 2013)

Veneficus said:


> If it is that big of a deal to recite something you don't believe in, just call in sick and skip the whole thing.



Or just don't say the part(s) you don't believe in.


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## Agent Cooper (Jan 25, 2013)

That's what I do with the Pledge of Allegiance. People generally don't even notice.


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## Christopher (Jan 25, 2013)

Well, your EMT program is ahead of the curve! Apparently Arizona wants it for high school graduates:


> I, _________, DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC, THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; THAT I TAKE THIS OBLIGATION FREELY, WITHOUT ANY MENTAL RESERVATION OR PURPOSE OF EVASION; AND THAT I WILL WELL AND FAITHFULLY DISCHARGE THESE DUTIES; SO HELP ME GOD.


News flash, when you graduate you have duties. DID YOU HEAR THAT HOMELESS ATHEIST GUY! YOU HAVE DUTIES!


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## Quackers (Jan 25, 2013)

Honestly, when  I took my oath of enlistment no one would have noticed if I had omitted "so help me God" so if it bothers you I would just omit it.  By the way Christopher, I assume you quoted the Arizona oath (which is a little extreme IMO) but I couldn't help but notice how similiar to my oath it was.

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."


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## Christopher (Jan 25, 2013)

Quackers said:


> Honestly, when  I took my oath of enlistment no one would have noticed if I had omitted "so help me God" so if it bothers you I would just omit it.  By the way Christopher, I assume you quoted the Arizona oath (which is a little extreme IMO) but I couldn't help but notice how similiar to my oath it was.



Yeah I noticed they borrowed heavily from other sources. I can't figure out how we've swung to this crazed notion of nationalism and oaths of service...

But good news: the OP will be a good or bad EMT independently of their oath of service.


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## Veneficus (Jan 25, 2013)

Christopher said:


> Yeah I noticed they borrowed heavily from other sources. I can't figure out how we've swung to this crazed notion of nationalism and oaths of service....



Absent some crazy toxic contamination or brain eating disease down in AZ, I would say it is the last way a dying empire can give its citizens a feeling of greatness.


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## Quackers (Jan 25, 2013)

Christopher said:


> Yeah I noticed they borrowed heavily from other sources. I can't figure out how we've swung to this crazed notion of nationalism and oaths of service...
> 
> But good news: the OP will be a good or bad EMT independently of their oath of service.



I don't really get that either, I mean sure oaths can mean something......if they're legally binding.  Other than that they're words, I almost wonder if the OP is in one of those paramilitary type EMT mills.


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## Christopher (Jan 25, 2013)

Quackers said:


> I don't really get that either, I mean sure oaths can mean something......if they're legally binding.  Other than that they're words, I almost wonder if the OP is in one of those paramilitary type EMT mills.



I think I could allow it if after every scenario they were told, "bow to your sensei!"


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## Quackers (Jan 25, 2013)




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## Glucatron (Jan 27, 2013)

When my father-in-law has us over for dinner. He has everyone hold hands and say grace. I hold hands and I mumble. I've never heard of an oath, though. It doesn't seem like any of the items are that over the top. It's not saying you have to give your life or anything. I'd just get it over with.


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## grump (Jan 30, 2013)

If thats the biggest problem you encounter....You will lead a charmed life.


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## the_negro_puppy (Jan 30, 2013)

The EMT Holy Trinity:

In the name of the backboard, the 02 and the holy Code 3


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## CANDawg (Jan 31, 2013)

the_negro_puppy said:


> In the name of the backboard, the 02 and the holy Code 3



Blessed be thy protocols, forever and ever, Amen.


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## Sandog (Jan 31, 2013)

So if you do mutter the word god in a sentence, whats gonna happen? Will you explode? If you put as much thought into things that are really important as you do trifling over a three letter word, you should do okay.

Funny how people text OMG all the time but yet they are so vehemently opposed to show respect at someones dinner table.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Feb 1, 2013)

I am pretty opposed to any individual having to recite pledges to a mythical being, especially when forced to do so. I do not believe conformity is an acceptable way to deal with something your opposed to. 
Maybe Rosa Parks should have just kept her mouth shut and sat in the back? Give me a break.

At the end of the day you got 2 choices, make a big deal out of it and try to get the policy changed perhaps with the help of an advocacy group for these things.

 Or two, simply do not say that part, or be a smart *** and say "Odin" or "flying spaghetti monster"


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## JPINFV (Feb 1, 2013)

We're really comparing a dinky EMT oath to Rosa Parks? Snort.


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## Clare (Feb 1, 2013)

An "oath" for ambos? sounds a bit over the top if you ask me; the Policing Act specifies the Oath of Office of Constable but they are discharging statutory powers and swear to serve the Crown, the Ambulance Service is not a Crown servant, I mean, really?


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## akflightmedic (Feb 1, 2013)

First you need to decide if you want to be the first martyr at this school or if you just want to get your pin and move on.

Me myself, I would protest and also get legal involved. There are plenty of atheist organizations that act promptly in situations like this to assist those in your position. I know as I am a member of many of them and I proudly donate my money to help those willing to take the stand against public institutions infusing religious concepts.

The choice is yours. If you are not in a position to do so, I completely understand, therefore you either skip the ceremony or simply not repeat the oath. My personal second option would be to attend but be noticed--noticed for not repeating the oath. I would not say any of it as that would stand out more. 

I do not need to pledge an oath to be a good EMT or Medic. 

Last option is to not attend but again I would make it known why I was not there.


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## JPINFV (Feb 1, 2013)

Clare said:


> An "oath" for ambos? sounds a bit over the top if you ask me; the Policing Act specifies the Oath of Office of Constable but they are discharging statutory powers and swear to serve the Crown, the Ambulance Service is not a Crown servant, I mean, really?


 Crown? We don't serve no stinkin crowns.


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## Clare (Feb 2, 2013)

JPINFV said:


> Crown? We don't serve no stinkin crowns.



Neither do I, although a crown, robe and septor might not be a bad idea ... well, on second thought not so much


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## JPINFV (Feb 2, 2013)

Clare said:


> Neither do I, although a crown, robe and septor might not be a bad idea ... well, on second thought not so much



Queen Elizabeth II begs to differ.


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## CANDawg (Feb 3, 2013)

JPINFV said:


> Queen Elizabeth II begs to differ.



I wrote a significant rant about how I feel regarding the Canadian/Australian/New Zealand/British monarchy, but then deleted it in the interests of keeping this topic on topic.

Let's just say that if the oath in question was to QE2 instead of God, I would have a quite a bit more sympathy and understanding for the OP.


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## 911bru (Feb 4, 2013)

Never heard of it.....


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## TimRaven (Feb 19, 2017)

Kind late to this, but generally most oath today have a secular version, like one swearing for citizenship/military.
(one can omit "so help me God" if one is a non-believer)
The version endorsed by NAEMT currently is the secular one, people should ask their program director if one can use this instead.

Personally, I think oath ceremony is a right direction as long as people can choose between religious/secular version, omit it all together if desired (some religion forbid taking oath). For general public and many students, it could install a sense of professionalism since doctors and nurses usually have one during their school.


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## NomadicMedic (Feb 19, 2017)

TimRaven said:


> Kind late to this...



By about 4 years.


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## akflightmedic (Feb 19, 2017)

If one needs to rely on an oath to instill a sense or perception of professionalism then we are in pretty bad shape. I would much rather prefer the education, the community involvement and some good old fashion organizing and lobbying do all the heavy lifting...I mean seriously, an oath?


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## TimRaven (Feb 19, 2017)

akflightmedic said:


> If one needs to rely on an oath to instill a sense or perception of professionalism then we are in pretty bad shape. I would much rather prefer the education, the community involvement and some good old fashion organizing and lobbying do all the heavy lifting...I mean seriously, an oath?



Well, not long ago there were popular movements in several states pushing paramedics from "certification" to "license" as a sign of professionalism on par with Nursing.

If oath and other ceremonies really mean nothing, why do most other uniformed/medical professions do it and treat it seriously? Law Enforcement, Firefighters, Judicial, Armed Forces, Doctors, Nurses...etc Maybe they actually mean something to the general public?

I agree it's not a priority to raise professionalism, but I am also surprise how many in the EMS side view so negatively at oath or commission ceremony.


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## VentMonkey (Feb 19, 2017)

TimRaven said:


> Well, not long ago there were popular movements in several states pushing paramedics from "certification" to "license" as a sign of professionalism on par with Nursing.
> *Hmm, not long ago you say? Tell me where has this gotten us in terms of a "profession"?*
> If oath and other ceremonies really mean nothing, why do most other uniformed/medical professions do it and treat it seriously? Law Enforcement, Firefighters, Judicial, Armed Forces, Doctors, Nurses...etc Maybe they actually mean something to the general public?
> *I don't think they mean anything to the general public, I think they mean more to these respective professions themselves, again a term EMS is battling to this day.*
> ...


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## TimRaven (Feb 19, 2017)

I am not a expert in reforms, just offering some personal opinion coming from a different background.

I have taken different oath three times in my life, first as an immigrant, in the military, and in SAR with local sheriff. Each time we would treat it as an important, if not scare events with family, friends, local officials and even media. We were each time explained it's ancient tradition dated to Romans, and to take pride in our achievements and embrace our new identity. It did installed self-confidence in many of us
So I am shocked here because it's my first time encounter people viewing such occasions so negativity.

I simply think the completion of a two year paramedic degree and licensing should be treat as a life event, a symbol of one's entering a career of public service, something students can take pride in. Not just another paper, routine duty and "non-sense".


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## VentMonkey (Feb 19, 2017)

TimRaven said:


> I am not a expert in reforms, just offering some personal opinion coming from a different background.
> 
> *I have taken different oath three times in my life, first as an immigrant, in the military, and in SAR with local sheriff*. Each time we would treat it as an important, if not scare events with family, friends, local officials and even media. We were each time explained it's ancient tradition dated to Romans, and to take pride in our achievements and embrace our new identity. It did installed self-confidence in many of us
> So I am shocked here because it's my first time encounter people viewing such occasions so negativity.
> ...


This displays life experience, which I respect. I don't know that we're (I'm) viewing it so much as negative more so than insignificant (at least at this point) in the face of all of the other, more important steps needed to take before we've even earned the title of a "profession"; thus far we haven't.

An oath won't change where we are, or effect change drastically, and we're in need of drastic changes, IMO. Our number one priority is restructuring our educational standards, or lack there of. Badges, oaths, patches, pay, etc. means little without the former.


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## akflightmedic (Feb 20, 2017)

TimRaven said:


> Each time we would treat it as an important, if not scare events with family, friends, local officials and even media. We were each time explained it's ancient tradition dated to Romans,



I get what you are saying here, but there are some of us who could care less about a tradition going back to the Romans or to anyone. Romans had a great tradition of crucifying people too...why stop now?  I just personally do not have a lot of care for tradition as in my own experiences I have found tradition to be an extremely limiting/restricting factor in most organizations and professions including our own little baby EMS one. Tradition begets "we have always done it that way" or "it works that way so do not look for or try anything else"....and I know we are talking an oath here, but instilling that mindset from the beginning, to me is poor form. 



TimRaven said:


> and to take pride in our achievements and embrace our new identity. It did installed self-confidence in many of us



Professing an oath, acquiring a badge, a stethoscope, etc...none of those items were ever needed or should be needed to instill self-confidence. Watch the Disney classic Dumbo if you need a refresher. 

***NEW IDENTITY??? I have great concern with this statement and the fact a newcomer is declaring this. EMS, Paramedic, EMT, this is NOT my identity. It is what I do, it is NOT who I am. I do strongly feel this is another horrible mindset within our profession. It took me many years and life experience to gain this insight and realize it is a bad one for us generally speaking.




TimRaven said:


> So I am shocked here because it's my first time encounter people viewing such occasions so negativity.



Not negative, exposing the other side of the coin. It is wholly unnecessary and not the direction we should be focusing on.



TimRaven said:


> I simply think the completion of a two year paramedic degree and licensing should be treat as a life event, a symbol of one's entering a career of public service, something students can take pride in. Not just another paper, routine duty and "non-sense".



It is a very proud accomplishment, absolutely. Do we need pomp and circumstance to revel in it....oh wait, we get that when we collect the degree and walk the stage. Ummm....do we need to go above and beyond that?


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## akflightmedic (Feb 20, 2017)

Missed the edit cut off time, had a secondary thought on instilling confidence...

*A solid foundation in education and a lengthy, properly conducted and supervised clinical experience would instill confidence, much like our other allied healthcare professionals.


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## TimRaven (Feb 20, 2017)

I thought about this topic again and talked to older medic friends, think I got why my view is very different here:
The EMS education I had was considered an atypical one, all the schools I went to since EMR days and current P-school were considered much higher standard than most, and all ran by generally ex-military faculties.
For example, my EMT school had a PA education director with former Army 18D background (who actually teach some classes himself), and current my medic program is a degree program, run by flight medics and CCRN, again ex-military, with student entry requirement of at least 1 year college health science education or 3 years ALS experience.

I just never experienced classes taught by burnt out old guys or NREMT cram class, thus reflecting my varied value on previous posts.


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## Grandmal4me (Mar 24, 2021)

This is an old post but I will still reply... as someone who came up as every level of EMT I will first say no one has nor ever mentioned an Oath.  Yet I find the idea an appropriate thought.  To your objections I say:  Get over it and yourself!  I've treated over 5,000 patients in my time.  You will not have the choice of race religion nor creed.  So if you are that sensitive you have probably since bailed out of my service.  If not, then I expect you have grown up or about to quit.

I mean this in the most adult and kind manner possible.  But you can't hope to enter a career field of such variance in duty and be so sensitive.

Best of luck!


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## akflightmedic (Mar 24, 2021)

LOL...only 5K??? Still a newbie eh?

And I do think you greatly missed the point of the "objectors".


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## ExpatMedic0 (Mar 24, 2021)

Thanks for making me read my reply from almost a decade ago. I can confirm in 2021 the oath mentioned is still dumb.


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## Jim37F (Mar 24, 2021)

In before the inevitable lock, for the somewhat impressive 2nd resuscitation of a dead thread.

But yeah, the OPs oath is stupid. And I am not an atheist lol. Wonder if @WickedGood is still around to let us know how it all shook out, 8 years later? (Not gonna hold my breath on that one though). 

Interesting to see some familiar names posting, at least a couple I recognize, but only @akflightmedic still a regular haha


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## DrParasite (Mar 24, 2021)

Just dipping my toe into this one.... last night my captain (Baptist) and me (Jewish) were discussing religion for about 2 hours.  Not saying one was better than the other, but just discussing how we have so many similarities and soooo many differences.  Just learning about each other from a different perspective.

5 hours later, we were dispatched for a fire alarm at one of the churches in our first due.  nothing showing on arrival, but when we opened the door, had a decent smoke condition with no known cause, upgrading the assignment to a structure fire.  an hour or so later, we found the source and were about to clear, and the pastor asked if we had any objections to him saying a prayer for us.  I said no, took off my helmet, and he did his thing.  Could I have objected on religious grounds?  probably, but why?  it made the public feel better, I had no feelings about it one way or the other, so is that really a hill I wanted to fight on?  Definitely not worth it.

BTW, last I checked, doctors take an oath, cops take an oath, firefighters take an oath, lawyers take an oath, elected officials take an oath... even the boy scouts take an oath.  is the objection with this particular oath, or oaths in general?  because they seem to be pretty common in other industries.


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## CCCSD (Mar 24, 2021)

Feelz. All about Feelz...


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## CALEMT (Mar 24, 2021)

Don't mind me, I'm just in before the lock.


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## NomadicMedic (Mar 24, 2021)

Nice paper about it here. Interesting take on EMS Ethics. https://wakespace.lib.wfu.edu/bitstream/handle/10339/39022/Winston_wfu_0248M_10475.pdf


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## Grandmal4me (Mar 24, 2021)

You very well state the thoughts rattling around in my old brain.  Cool!  Haha

BTW, after nearly 10 years in EMS (started at 16) I had a "midlife crisis" and served several years in the military in a flying combat role, but kept my skills up teaching on the side.  Had to take an oath for that, & again every time I re-upped.   Now I'm retired and dragged back into volunteer EMS by my firefighter daughter.  Didn't know how much I missed it.

Cheers!


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## akflightmedic (Mar 24, 2021)

Jim37F said:


> In before the inevitable lock, for the somewhat impressive 2nd resuscitation of a dead thread.
> 
> But yeah, the OPs oath is stupid. And I am not an atheist lol. Wonder if @WickedGood is still around to let us know how it all shook out, 8 years later? (Not gonna hold my breath on that one though).
> 
> Interesting to see some familiar names posting, at least a couple I recognize, but only @akflightmedic still a regular haha


LOL....I joined this site in 2005. I was a regular on another site and there was some major drama, a big upheaval, all kinds of silliness. Anyways, here I have remained, mostly because the owner has not screwed with the format, not tried to do the latest and greatest, has just kept it simple and clean.


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## akflightmedic (Mar 24, 2021)

And yes, oaths are dumb. I did not take an oath as a Firefighter, a Medic, or as a RN. I did not take an oath in several other side jobs/careers I have ventured into. I do not even pledge allegiance to the flag...because if my country is fundamentally wrong, and I cannot change it, then I certainly will not give it my undying support. Basically, I am a true patriot in the sense I defend my freedom to dissent if needed. 

How come plumbers, carpernters, general contractors, trashmen, dog catchers, cooks, servers, etc...how come they do not take an oath? What is it about front line careers where we feel this need to project better than thou, have oaths, and capitalize on the whole martyrdom thing?


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## CCCSD (Mar 24, 2021)

I’ve sworn an oath or two today while training...


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## DrParasite (Mar 24, 2021)

akflightmedic said:


> How come plumbers, carpernters, general contractors, trashmen, dog catchers, cooks, servers, etc...how come they do not take an oath? What is it about front line careers where we feel this need to project better than thou, have oaths, and capitalize on the whole martyrdom thing?


That's a good question... why have an oath at all?  well, according to https://link.springer.com/referenceworkentry/10.1007/978-3-319-23514-1_69-1


> Professional oaths are arguably the oldest form of ethics management, going back at least as far as to Hippocrates of Kos (c. 400 BCE). They are promises made during public ceremonies that exhort oath-takers to treat the oath’s beneficiaries in ways consistent with professional standards. They obtain their justification primarily from the social function of the profession. Their binding force and moral weight are generally larger than those of mere promises, from which they can be distinguished on account of their satisfying a number of additional formal and substantive conditions. Professional oaths, if carefully designed, may foster professionalism, facilitate moral deliberation, and enhance compliance with professional standards.


and from https://www.dyess.af.mil/News/Commentaries/Display/Article/813343/why-take-an-oath/


> So, what is an oath? An oath is a solemn promise, often invoking a divine witness, regarding one's future action or behavior. This is the reason nearly all professions have oaths; they use these words as a binding contract to hold them accountable for their ethical actions, behaviors, and ... ultimately, their decisions.


I'm not saying they are good or bad, or belong in EMS... but other professions do seem to use them.  maybe they are ahead of the curve?


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## CCCSD (Mar 24, 2021)

You have to be Ethical first...


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## akflightmedic (Mar 24, 2021)

Why do other professions NOT use them?


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 25, 2021)

Threads get locked for useless bumps, not for productive conversations.


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## Grandmal4me (Mar 25, 2021)

CCCSD said:


> You have to be Ethical first...


Good point... without personal ethics an oath is meaningless.   Too many folks say the words when making a promise but quickly forget them.


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## E tank (Mar 25, 2021)

Oaths and ethical standards are related, but are not the same things, obviously. An oath without consequences of violating it is ceremony, and in this day and age the only consequence free ceremony folks are remotely tolerant of is the Super Bowl half time show.

You take an oath when you get married, give a deposition or are sworn in to some office. The consequences for violating those oaths are real (or can be, were someone to press the issue).

I will say that at least in the OP, the oath in question includes a curse against the taker if he violates the oath. There's that...

Every profession ought to have ethical standards, but real ones, vetted by an actual ethicist, not a list of politically validating statements that serve as some kind of testimony to the nobility of the folks that do some job.


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## akflightmedic (Mar 25, 2021)

Is the implication that I lack ethics? Since I do not support or believe in meaningless oaths yet still perform competently with a high sense of integrity and empathy...am I not capable of that now since I am oathless and (ethic-less)?


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## CarSevenFour (Mar 29, 2021)

The only oath I ever took was when I was appointed Fire Dispatcher for a local fire department in Orange County, CA. The chief swore me to "Uphold the standards of my position and give 110% to the people of the city." Simple, made up on the spot most likely. Then he pinned the badge on my uniform shirt and I was proud to serve and held that oath as something worth living up to. In reality, I would have given my life to the citizens if need be. In my career as an EMT for a private ambulance service, I was asked by a SWAT team leader to assist in a workplace shooting at the hospital where the shooter was still believed to be in the building. The supervisor said, "Look, I know you guys aren't sworn personnel, but they need your help and equipment on the 2nd floor. You can leave right now, no harm no foul." I committed myself and my partner and said, "Yes." Oath or no oath, I feel we owe it to the public to give all we have to the job. Like cops have the motto, "To protect and serve" on their units, I believe the ambulance motto should read, "That others may live." The motto is from the military rescue services, but I think it says everything about the ultimate responsibility to the public EMS has, and should be sworn to.


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## akflightmedic (Mar 29, 2021)

CarSevenFour said:


> The only oath I ever took was when I was appointed Fire Dispatcher for a local fire department in Orange County, CA. The chief swore me to "Uphold the standards of my position and give 110% to the people of the city." Simple, made up on the spot most likely. Then he pinned the badge on my uniform shirt and I was proud to serve and held that oath as something worth living up to. In reality, *I would have given my life to the citizens if need be.* In my career as an EMT for a private ambulance service, I was asked by a SWAT team leader to assist in a workplace shooting at the hospital where the shooter was still believed to be in the building. The supervisor said, "Look, I know you guys aren't sworn personnel, but they need your help and equipment on the 2nd floor. You can leave right now, no harm no foul." *I committed myself and my partner and said,* "Yes." Oath or no oath, I feel we owe it to the public to give all we have to the job. Like cops have the motto, "To protect and serve" on their units, I believe the ambulance motto should read, *"That others may live." The motto is from the military rescue services, but I think it says everything about the ultimate responsibility to the public EMS has, and should be sworn to.*



Three bold points for you to review:

1. Ummm NO!!! As a routine Paramedic, I will NEVER EVER be willing to give my life to anyone who calls. EVER! My children and GF deserve to have me around for a few more years. Our job is already risky enough, I will not intentionally risk or give my life for a citizen from a 911 call.

2. YOU are sofa king dangerous with this statement. If you EVER try to commit me to an unsafe scene that clearly you were not qualified or trained to be in, you are gonna be rushing to save that life all by yourself, and then when you get done I am going to kick your astroid.

3. NO! You flippantly throwing that phrase around and willy nilly wish to "borrow" it, means you have absolutely zero clue what that phrase means. It is disrespectful for you to even say you would want to take it for EMS.

And PLEASE stop all the fooking heroics and martyrdom BS. This entire post is ridiculous and NOT what we need in Professional EMS.


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## CCCSD (Mar 29, 2021)

CarSevenFour said:


> The only oath I ever took was when I was appointed Fire Dispatcher for a local fire department in Orange County, CA. The chief swore me to "Uphold the standards of my position and give 110% to the people of the city." Simple, made up on the spot most likely. Then he pinned the badge on my uniform shirt and I was proud to serve and held that oath as something worth living up to. In reality, I would have given my life to the citizens if need be. In my career as an EMT for a private ambulance service, I was asked by a SWAT team leader to assist in a workplace shooting at the hospital where the shooter was still believed to be in the building. The supervisor said, "Look, I know you guys aren't sworn personnel, but they need your help and equipment on the 2nd floor. You can leave right now, no harm no foul." I committed myself and my partner and said, "Yes." Oath or no oath, I feel we owe it to the public to give all we have to the job. Like cops have the motto, "To protect and serve" on their units, I believe the ambulance motto should read, "That others may live." The motto is from the military rescue services, but I think it says everything about the ultimate responsibility to the public EMS has, and should be sworn to.


So nobody at the hospital was capable of dealing with some bullet holes?


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## akflightmedic (Mar 29, 2021)

No man! In the heat of the battle, a Swat Team leader had no other option other than granting a field promotion to two untrained civilians who were never evacuated or were crazily allowed to enter the active shooter scene.


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## CCCSD (Mar 29, 2021)

Oh. Thanks. That’s Gen then.


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## Grandmal4me (Mar 30, 2021)

Good points...

Every EMT or military first aid class I ever taught started with the question:  
"Who is the most important person on the scene of any rescue?  Answer:  point to yourself and say I AM because if I go down I can't help my patient, and who the heck is gonna help me!?"


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## jgmedic (Mar 30, 2021)

CarSevenFour said:


> The only oath I ever took was when I was appointed Fire Dispatcher for a local fire department in Orange County, CA. The chief swore me to "Uphold the standards of my position and give 110% to the people of the city." Simple, made up on the spot most likely. Then he pinned the badge on my uniform shirt and I was proud to serve and held that oath as something worth living up to. In reality, I would have given my life to the citizens if need be. In my career as an EMT for a private ambulance service, I was asked by a SWAT team leader to assist in a workplace shooting at the hospital where the shooter was still believed to be in the building. The supervisor said, "Look, I know you guys aren't sworn personnel, but they need your help and equipment on the 2nd floor. You can leave right now, no harm no foul." I committed myself and my partner and said, "Yes." Oath or no oath, I feel we owe it to the public to give all we have to the job. Like cops have the motto, "To protect and serve" on their units, I believe the ambulance motto should read, "That others may live." The motto is from the military rescue services, but I think it says everything about the ultimate responsibility to the public EMS has, and should be sworn to.


This is the most OC private EMT post ever.


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## Fezman92 (Mar 31, 2021)

The only oath I took was when I started my job as a Census worker. I had to swear to uphold the Constitution of the United States and to protect her from all enemies domestic and abroad. Or however it goes. Had to raise my right hand and everything. Super weird thing especially for a temp job.


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## CCCSD (Mar 31, 2021)

Fezman92 said:


> The only oath I took was when I started my job as a Census worker. I had to swear to uphold the Constitution of the United States and to protect her from all enemies domestic and abroad. Or however it goes. Had to raise my right hand and everything. Super weird thing especially for a temp job.


And by adding illegals to the census, you violated that oath...(not you specifically).🤣


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## RedBlanketRunner (Apr 1, 2021)

E tank said:


> Every profession ought to have ethical standards, but real ones, vetted by an actual ethicist, not a list of politically validating statements that serve as some kind of testimony to the nobility of the folks that do some job.


"Ethical standards are purely subjective, based upon the dignity of the person, their self respect, and their moral fiber." -A paraphrased assessment of Pico della Mirandola's Oration on the Dignity of Man.
I'd follow that up with, "There remain some truths too ephemeral to be captured in the cold pages of a court transcript" Irving R. Kaufman


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## johnrsemt (Apr 1, 2021)

Only Oath I ever took was to start working this job as a paramedic, but not because I am working as a paramedic, but because I am working for the Federal Government.


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## Fezman92 (Apr 1, 2021)

johnrsemt said:


> Only Oath I ever took was to start working this job as a paramedic, but not because I am working as a paramedic, but because I am working for the Federal Government.


So we took the same oath?


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## E tank (Apr 2, 2021)

RedBlanketRunner said:


> "Ethical standards are purely subjective, based upon the dignity of the person, their self respect, and their moral fiber." -A paraphrased assessment of Pico della Mirandola's Oration on the Dignity of Man.
> I'd follow that up with, "There remain some truths too ephemeral to be captured in the cold pages of a court transcript" Irving R. Kaufman


Nah...I don't buy that BS...that's what you'd call the "dictatorship of relativism" and requires you to respect Charles Manson's ethics as much as, say, the American Medical Association's. There is right and there is wrong. You could argue against that, but you'd just be demonstrating you believe that to be true.


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## RedBlanketRunner (Apr 2, 2021)

@E tank I would very much prefer to agree with you there. But an irreducible conundrum remains.. For example, under certain circumstances  a person could justify the deliberate premeditated death of another as in a greater good scenario, while others will maintain that such an act can never be justified in a truly civilized society.
Then the contention comes up that we aren't a truly civilized society which shifts the paradigm towards how low can we go and get away with it?


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## ffemt8978 (Apr 2, 2021)

E tank said:


> Nah...I don't buy that BS...that's what you'd call the "dictatorship of relativism" and requires you to respect Charles Manson's ethics as much as, say, the American Medical Association's. There is right and there is wrong. You could argue against that, but you'd just be demonstrating you believe that to be true.


Right and wrong are not absolutes and viewpoints of what is right or wrong have changed over time.  They've even changed since the time of Manson.    They're still changing.


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## E tank (Apr 2, 2021)

ffemt8978 said:


> Right and wrong are not absolutes and viewpoints of what is right or wrong have changed over time.  They've even changed since the time of Manson.    They're still changing.


Is that statement right or wrong?


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## E tank (Apr 2, 2021)

RedBlanketRunner said:


> @E tank I would very much prefer to agree with you there. But an irreducible conundrum remains.. For example, under certain circumstances  a person could justify the deliberate premeditated death of another as in a greater good scenario, while others will maintain that such an act can never be justified in a truly civilized society.
> Then the contention comes up that we aren't a truly civilized society which shifts the paradigm towards how low can we go and get away with it?


You're confusing an opinion with truth.


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## DrParasite (Apr 2, 2021)

NAEMT has had an oath since the 1970s... 



			EMS Code of Ethics


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## CarSevenFour (Apr 2, 2021)

akflightmedic said:


> Three bold points for you to review:
> 
> 1. Ummm NO!!! As a routine Paramedic, I will NEVER EVER be willing to give my life to anyone who calls. EVER! My children and GF deserve to have me around for a few more years. Our job is already risky enough, I will not intentionally risk or give my life for a citizen from a 911 call.
> 
> ...


Nope, they were busy performing surgery in a most inopportune place, and needed a piece of equipment we had on our unit to move the PTs to a proper surgical suite.


akflightmedic said:


> Three bold points for you to review:
> 
> 1. Ummm NO!!! As a routine Paramedic, I will NEVER EVER be willing to give my life to anyone who calls. EVER! My children and GF deserve to have me around for a few more years. Our job is already risky enough, I will not intentionally risk or give my life for a citizen from a 911 call.
> 
> ...


...And you call yourself, "bold." Why does it bother you so much that I would give my all to save someone weighing the risks first. My partner gave me thet, "It's your decision" look and I made the call as was my job. We didn't do the task alone, we had a full police escort and they were armed with M-16s and shotguns as well as side arms. Completely surrounded with firepower, we did the best we could. I also knew the nurses, as did my partner, so we went. Now you can worry all you want about the safety issues, but in this case we made sure the deck was as stacked in our favor as much as possible. And, gee, the risk paid off, I lived long in my career and made it to retirement. BTW, if you want "safe" I believe the "alphabet" ambulance service hires guys to clean and stock rigs, that would be a good safe place to start if you're risk averse. EMS is dangerous work. Period.


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## CarSevenFour (Apr 2, 2021)

CCCSD said:


> So nobody at the hospital was capable of dealing with some bullet holes?


They were definitely dealing with the wounds. The surgical team requested our assistance via LAPD and our dispatch concurred. The surgeons and nurses were performing surgery inside of an office and needed a piece of equipment we carried on the ambulance to provide continuous suction as they attempted to move to a proper surgical suite without the need to stop at each electrical outlet to power their suction equipment on the run. If we hadn't at least tried, I would have never been able to live with myself. My partner agreed with my decision and willingly gave it a go as we knew both of the victims.


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## ffemt8978 (Apr 2, 2021)

EMS is dangerous enough without adding to it.


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## RedBlanketRunner (Apr 2, 2021)

E tank said:


> You're confusing an opinion with truth.


Opinions can be truth. We are talking about a philosophy here.

_Ethics, also called moral philosophy,  the discipline concerned with what is morally good and bad and morally right and wrong. The term is also applied to any system or theory of moral values or principles._ -Britannica

Ethics is not a science. Does not have a litmus test.
_Understood as equivalent to morality, ethics could be studied as a social-psychological or historical phenomenon, but in that case it would be an object of social-scientific study, not a social science in itself. Understood as the philosophical study of moral concepts, ethics is a branch of philosophy, not of social science._


ffemt8978 said:


> EMS is dangerous enough without adding to it.


Anyone else has done chest compressions with high speed traffic zooming past a few inches from your hiney... or equivalnet?


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## ffemt8978 (Apr 2, 2021)

Unfortunately and not for very long


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## CCCSD (Apr 2, 2021)

CarSevenFour said:


> They were definitely dealing with the wounds. The surgical team requested our assistance via LAPD and our dispatch concurred. The surgeons and nurses were performing surgery inside of an office and needed a piece of equipment we carried on the ambulance to provide continuous suction as they attempted to move to a proper surgical suite without the need to stop at each electrical outlet to power their suction equipment on the run. If we hadn't at least tried, I would have never been able to live with myself. My partner agreed with my decision and willingly gave it a go as we knew both of the victims.


Link to this incident? News, etc.


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## luke_31 (Apr 3, 2021)

CCCSD said:


> Link to this incident? News, etc.


I agree. I’m calling BS too. I used to work and live in LA and never heard anything like this ever. Still know a few guys out there and they’d have heard about something like this.


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## DrParasite (Apr 3, 2021)

CarSevenFour said:


> They were definitely dealing with the wounds. The surgical team requested our assistance via LAPD and our dispatch concurred. The surgeons and nurses were performing surgery inside of an office and needed a piece of equipment we carried on the ambulance to provide continuous suction as they attempted to move to a proper surgical suite without the need to stop at each electrical outlet to power their suction equipment on the run. If we hadn't at least tried, I would have never been able to live with myself. My partner agreed with my decision and willingly gave it a go as we knew both of the victims.


let me see if I have this right... you were at a shooting AT A HOSPITAL, where the surgeon and nurse were performing surgery in an OFFICE, while the shooter was still at large, and they needed an EMS portable suction because THERE WERE NONE IN THE HOSPITAL,  so instead of just giving it to the cops to DELIVER IT, you and your partner needed to HAND-DELIVER IT TO THE DOCTOR while they were still looking for the shooter?

This sounds like BS... a link would be great to verify what happened... maybe you can just provide the approximate date that the incident occurred, so those in the area can ask around?  but there are too many red flags for me to believe that you aren't making that all up without actual proof.


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## Fezman92 (Apr 3, 2021)

CarSevenFour said:


> They were definitely dealing with the wounds. The surgical team requested our assistance via LAPD and our dispatch concurred. The surgeons and nurses were performing surgery inside of an office and needed a piece of equipment we carried on the ambulance to provide continuous suction as they attempted to move to a proper surgical suite without the need to stop at each electrical outlet to power their suction equipment on the run. If we hadn't at least tried, I would have never been able to live with myself. My partner agreed with my decision and willingly gave it a go as we knew both of the victims.


You sound like a guy who applied to be a PJ but was ineligible to join the military.


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## Fezman92 (Apr 3, 2021)

For the record I’m armed with my cutting whit.


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## ffemt8978 (Apr 3, 2021)

Fezman92 said:


> For the record I’m armed with my cutting whit.


I prefer the D cylinder.


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## RedBlanketRunner (Apr 3, 2021)

Seems to me this all boils down to the dignity of the individual. Without dignity and self respect an oath is meaningless. With them an oath is unnecessary.

As a post script, the political circus in the US the past few years has clearly demonstrated even under penalty of perjury an oath isn't worth the effort to push it out the rear vent.


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## CarSevenFour (Apr 4, 2021)

CCCSD said:


> Link to this incident? News, etc.





ffemt8978 said:


> I prefer the D cylinder.





Fezman92 said:


> DrParasite said:
> 
> 
> > let me see if I have this right... you were at a shooting AT A HOSPITAL, where the surgeon and nurse were performing surgery in an OFFICE, while the shooter was still at large, and they needed an EMS portable suction because THERE WERE NONE IN THE HOSPITAL,  so instead of just giving it to the cops to DELIVER IT, you and your partner needed to HAND-DELIVER IT TO THE DOCTOR while they were still looking for the shooter?
> ...


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## CarSevenFour (Apr 4, 2021)

To all you naysayers, you must either be probies or work IN REAL SLOW STATIONS. I've heard a lot more far-fetched stories in my nearly 30-year career than this one. Get a job in the big city and see what real EMS work is really like.


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## Fezman92 (Apr 4, 2021)

CarSevenFour said:


> View attachment 5258


I don’t see anything about EMS having to go in.


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## CCCSD (Apr 4, 2021)

CarSevenFour said:


> To all you naysayers, you must either be probies or work IN REAL SLOW STATIONS. I've heard a lot more far-fetched stories in my nearly 30-year career than this one. Get a job in the big city and see what real EMS work is really like.


Only 30 years..? Ok newby. I’ve done more “real EMS” INCONUS and OCONUS in places and situations you’d cry at, (as have a few others on here), so cool your jets.
Nothing in that article says anything about D Platoon asking you for your expertise in carrying a portable suction unit to save lives...


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## Fezman92 (Apr 4, 2021)

CCCSD said:


> Only 30 years..? Ok newby. I’ve done more “real EMS” INCONUS and OCONUS in places and situations you’d cry at, (as have a few others on here), so cool your jets.
> Nothing in that article says anything about D Platoon asking you for your expertise in carrying a portable suction unit to save lives...


INCONUS and OCONUS?


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## GMCmedic (Apr 4, 2021)

Fezman92 said:


> INCONUS and OCONUS?


Inside/Outside Continental US


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## Fezman92 (Apr 4, 2021)

Ah ok, thanks.


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## ffemt8978 (Apr 4, 2021)

And that's enough of this one.


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