# EMT charged with attacking restrained person



## VentMedic (Jun 16, 2009)

http://www.midhudsonnews.com/News/2009/June09/16/Raimer_arr-16Jun09.html

*EMT charged with attacking restrained person*



> WALLKILL – Police Chief Robert Hertman doesn’t have an explanation for it, but a paid Town of Wallkill Volunteer Ambulance Corps EMT, who responded to a call to check on a person at a local motel, wound up attacking the man.


 



> Sostre was handcuffed and harnessed in a “stair chair” to be moved, said Hertman.
> 
> “While he was being removed in his chair, EMT Raimer began to strike Michael Sostre in the face several times causing an injury, until uniformed on-duty officers intervened and stopped the assault,” he said.
> 
> Sostre was taken to Orange Regional Medical Center for treatment of his injuries while Raimer was charged with third-degree assault.


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## djmedic913 (Jun 16, 2009)

before the masses explode in anger and argument and judgment, there not much information at all.

this story says nothing.

I understand that the patient was handcuffed, but there still not enuff info.

so if you can come across any more info, please pass it on.


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## JPINFV (Jun 16, 2009)

Handcuffed and strapped into a stair chair? I'd be happy to hear what scenarios lead to the patient being hit in the face?


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## firecoins (Jun 16, 2009)

This call is not far from me. I will look into it.  DO NOT trust the inital media reports.  Media in the hudson valley has a hx of being very light on the info and makes broad statements.


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## daedalus (Jun 16, 2009)

I have to hold comment on this one. Who knows what happened. EMTs do not carry handcuffs, usually, so I would have to assume the cops were there too. Maybe this EMT just got so mad at the patients behavior and hit him, lol.


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## BLSBoy (Jun 16, 2009)

Who here has carried the foot end of the stair chair?
Especially the older ones?

You are at their mercy. I think dude got antsy kicked the EMT, and got what was coming to him. 


If I am wrong, and it was unprovoked, hang him from the highest tree.


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## JPINFV (Jun 16, 2009)

So restrain the legs with cravats or something. On the Fernos at my company there's a strap specifically for the legs. The solution to being kicked while using a stair chair isn't to assault the patient, but use more restraints.


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## daedalus (Jun 16, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> So restrain the legs with cravats or something. On the Fernos at my company there's a strap specifically for the legs. The solution to being kicked while using a stair chair isn't to assault the patient, but use more restraints.



And then press charges against the patient. But do not hit his face..


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## JPINFV (Jun 16, 2009)

Depending on the situation, sure. My question is, why is this patient in custody? Is this a suspect or a psychatric patient? ...and yes, psychatric patients get leway in determining what is and is not assault/battery.


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## BLSBoy (Jun 16, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> So restrain the legs with cravats or something. On the Fernos at my company there's a strap specifically for the legs. The solution to being kicked while using a stair chair isn't to assault the patient, but use more restraints.



I'm saying perhaps it was an oversight. 
The old model stair chairs pretty much have nothing. SO perhaps it was jsut overlooked. We are human, and things like that do happen. 
If one is getting kicked or punched while carrying that person down the stairs, holding hands and asking them to stop isnt always the answer.


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## AnthonyM83 (Jun 16, 2009)

I'd like to hear the details before judging. Obviously, if PD had to stop the assault, then it was more than self-defense. BUT I also realize that a restrained person can still hurt us. While I would hopefully restrain myself, if someone kicked me in the privates or spit blood on me or bit me, I would have quite a violent internal reaction (again, that doesn't mean one can act on it).


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## AnthonyM83 (Jun 16, 2009)

atropine said:


> Stupid vollies, that's prettty much sums it up, again VOLLIES = low wages and education for all of ems.



Because violence against patients or improper restraint never happens in SoCal.....


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## firecoins (Jun 16, 2009)

atropine said:


> Stupid vollies, that's prettty much sums it up, again VOLLIES = low wages and education for all of ems.


 
Odd, I vollie in the general area for a decade and this is the only time I heard of violence being used against a patient.  I am sure its because well educated people are not prone to violence.  Or people who make lots of money.  

I am sure paid EMS in SoCal is free from this stuff.


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## lightsandsirens5 (Jun 16, 2009)

firecoins said:


> Media in the hudson valley has a hx of being very light on the info and makes broad statements.



Is that not true of media everywhere?


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## firecoins (Jun 16, 2009)

lightsandsirens5 said:


> Is that not true of media everywhere?



yes it is however I have witnessed it here because this is where I am.  If I was there I would see it there too.


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## Ped101 (Jun 16, 2009)

I think there's more to this than the story says

I've been hurt by patients before, but to strike a patient is something i never ever did.


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## djmedic913 (Jun 16, 2009)

There not nearly enough information to even guess what happened.

This article tells nothing. This article alone is nothing more than tabloid BS and meant for sensationalism.

I will admit I am now interested in finding out what happened...

Should the EMT be arrest for assault? don't know. Was the EMT defending himself? don't know. Did the EMT take things too far? good chance, but don't know.

We need more information just to make an educated guess at what happened.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jun 16, 2009)

djmedic913 said:


> There not nearly enough information to even guess what happened.



No need for more information.  The word "volunteer" was in the article.  According to some, that is explanation enough.    Funny how volunteers never say "stupid paid morons" every time some EMT or Medic getting paid screws up... and yes it does happen... A LOT!

As far as this article goes... anyone notice how they gave the patient two different names?  I'll wait until a better, more complete, reporting is provided before I pass judgment; and even then, hitting a restrained patient (no matter what they did) seems indefensible.


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## medic417 (Jun 16, 2009)

atropine said:


> Stupid vollies, that's prettty much sums it up, again VOLLIES = low wages and education for all of ems.



Funny it says he was paid.

"but a *paid* Town of Wallkill Volunteer Ambulance Corps EMT"

I hate to point that out to you as I feel volunteer EMS is one of the greatest problems with EMS next to fire and education.


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## JPINFV (Jun 16, 2009)

Regardless of what I feel about the (dis)service that volunteers have done to EMS, I thought the key word was "handcuffed."


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## Hal9000 (Jun 16, 2009)

Wonder what the full story is going to be.  I can't imagine hitting a restrained patient, and if the legs are loose, I'll stay away while trying to keep the pt safe. Recently had a very combative patient that dislocated my partner's wrist while we and PD were restraining.  Though incredibly angry, we never actually considered hurting the pt.  The restraints were there for our safety and the patients...

Anyway, until the full story comes out, the elements simply don't allow me to have an accurate impression.


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## djmedic913 (Jun 16, 2009)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> No need for more information.  The word "volunteer" was in the article.  According to some, that is explanation enough.    Funny how volunteers never say "stupid paid morons" every time some EMT or Medic getting paid screws up... and yes it does happen... A LOT!


Um...actually vollies do say "stupid paid morons"...lol...



medic417 said:


> Funny it says he was paid.
> "but a *paid* Town of Wallkill Volunteer Ambulance Corps EMT"


well, if he is paid, then does that automatically NOT make him a volly. I am guessing this squad is made up of both paid and vollies. And the paid would cover the days and the night shifts are covered by vollies and per diems...If anyone knows how the Town of Wallkill Volunteer Ambulance Corps operates, enlighten us.



medic417 said:


> I hate to point that out to you as I feel volunteer EMS is one of the greatest problems with EMS next to fire and education.



I have dealt with vollies, as another volly and then as paid member of another agency. I will say this: just like with paid services there are people who got their cards from a crackerjack box. I understand in some areas the volly squads do not have a high call volume, but they do have training meetings...

I dunno if slamming all vollies is appropriate. Trust me I have had my share of issues with volly squads...but not the same issues with all squads...I actually came across a few squads that were impressively good.


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## Sasha (Jun 16, 2009)

BLSBoy said:


> I'm saying perhaps it was an oversight.
> The old model stair chairs pretty much have nothing. SO perhaps it was jsut overlooked. We are human, and things like that do happen.
> If one is getting kicked or punched while carrying that person down the stairs, holding hands and asking them to stop isnt always the answer.



Hitting your patient is NEVER the answer. Especially with cops present.


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## JPINFV (Jun 16, 2009)

...but can we hit on our patients?


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## BLSBoy (Jun 16, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> ...but can we hit on our patients?



Giggity!!!!!


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## AnthonyM83 (Jun 17, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Hitting your patient is NEVER the answer. Especially with cops present.



Barring self-defense issues, of course...


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## Luno (Jun 17, 2009)

> Hitting your patient is NEVER the answer. Especially with cops present.


Yeah, I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one...  I'll preface this with the question of how many times have you been assaulted on the job, Sasha?  Sometimes people need to require assistance to compliance.  And before we get in to all the "scene safe" bs, there are situations that are dynamic, and you don't have the luxury to exfil, and wait for the scene to become safe.  I'll just use one example, my partner and I were called to a known crack house for a OD, 41 y/o M unconscious/unresponsive.  LE was onscene, we show up with FD, and patient is naked, and unconscious.  Well the place was on the third floor of an apartment building, so we're trying to figure out how to get him downstairs.  We grab a chair to place him to carry him downstairs, well as soon as he's sat up, he wakes up, and thinks we're trying to kill him.  LE tries a thumb compliance lock and a pressure point compliance attempt, and the patient is now swinging at the LEs (both of them) and they're getting knocked around.  Long story short, the patient went through the wooden chair, LEs were grateful, scene became safe again.  Sometimes dynamic scenes require self defence.


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## BLSBoy (Jun 17, 2009)

Luno said:


> Sometimes dynamic scenes require self defence.



Bingfreaking-O!!
I'm not hardened, crusty urban medic. But I've been working in Atlantic City BLS and ALS for just about 2 years not. 
"safe" scenes can, and will suddenly become unsafe. PD will not always be there when you need them. 

Sometimes the best thing to disarm a situation isn't taught in the books. Old school works.


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## AnthonyM83 (Jun 17, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> Regardless of what I feel about the (dis)service that volunteers have done to EMS, I thought the key word was "handcuffed."


It is a keyword, but the reminder is needed not to (even for a moment) think that means you're safe (not even partially safe). It has been a deadly final mistake for many civil servants. Much damage can be done with the mouth, feet, head, bodily fluids, and whatever is being held in the hands.


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## JPINFV (Jun 17, 2009)

Safe? No, but if the patient is handcuffed and strapped into the stair chair, I think it's a safe assumption that the patient isn't going anywhere. If the patient is spitting, the solution isn't to beat the crap out of the patient. The solution is to put a mask on the patient. If the patient is kicking, then the solution isn't to beat the crap out of the patient. The solution is to tie the feet to the chair.

When a patient is handcuffed and tied down (the key line is, "Sostre was handcuffed and harnessed in a “stair chair” to be moved, said Hertman."), then you have options and time. Place the patient down, walk out of range, and develop a plan. If this was a patient who slipped his restraints and then started attacking someone, then that's self defense to beat the crap out of the patient. If it's a patient who wasn't restrained that turned violent, then that's self defense as well. These cases are not in play in this situation according to the article.


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## Shishkabob (Jun 17, 2009)

Just because someone is strapped / cuffed doesn't mean they don't still pose a threat.




Having said that, an officer said there was no reason to, so there ya go.


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## JPINFV (Jun 17, 2009)

I'll say it again since you obviously didn't read my post. It's not that the patient doesn't pose a threat when restrained and strapped in. Is the fact that you have *options* since you can *walk away* from the patient instead of *committing battery.*


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## willbeflight (Jun 17, 2009)

With the information that we have,  I have to say that the actions of the Medic were inexcusable.  There were options there, if the story is at least half accurate.  I have been hit by patients before and had my ribs busted up. Even though I threatened their lives,  I would never hurt them intentionally.  We are there for their medical needs.  Not to cause them.


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## Shishkabob (Jun 17, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> I'll say it again since you obviously didn't read my post. It's not that the patient doesn't pose a threat when restrained and strapped in. Is the fact that you have *options* since you can *walk away* from the patient instead of *committing battery.*



And I'll say it again since you obviously didn't read mine;

Just because someone is strapped/cuffed doesn't mean they aren't a danger. 




An officer in Texas was killed by a handcuffed man in his cruiser not too long ago.

Having said that, the mere fact that the officer said it was battery constitutes it as such, until proven otherwise (court proceeding excepted)


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## Sasha (Jun 17, 2009)

Linuss said:


> And I'll say it again since you obviously didn't read mine;
> 
> Just because someone is strapped/cuffed doesn't mean they aren't a danger.
> 
> ...



If someone is handcuffed to something, you have the option of moving away. Sure, they may "be a danger" but you can move away from the threat. Common sense says you don't batter a handcuffed person, you move away from the threat and let the cops deal with it.



> I'll preface this with the question of how many times have you been assaulted on the job, Sasha?



Enough. Working on IFT trucks I've done a great deal of transports for severely demented patients that like to hit, bite, kick, slap, spit. Also some just mean, miserable patients who do the same. I always found the best course of action, especially if they are restrained (Seat belted or poseys) to simply be to step back out of hitting/kicking/teeth/spitting range. I have never ever felt the urge to hit them back.


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## Shishkabob (Jun 17, 2009)

I know that, Sasha, as I was simply trying to say don't let your guard down. 

That's why I have the second half to both of those post. 

Why do we argue with eachother when we're stating the same thing?


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## JPINFV (Jun 17, 2009)

Linuss said:


> Having said that, the mere fact that the officer said it was battery constitutes it as such, until proven otherwise (court proceeding excepted)



Coffin v United States says otherwise. Police officers aren't god nor are they Judge Dread. Just because they say something doesn't mean that the person is automatically guilty until proven otherwise.


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## Shishkabob (Jun 17, 2009)

Did you miss the "court proceeding excepted" part?  That was meant to be understood as "innocent until proven guilty". The cop portion was meant as "you're charged with it". 

I'm not new to law, the system or how it works.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jun 17, 2009)

Sasha said:


> I have never ever felt the urge to hit them back.



Come on Sasha, I think people here know you a little better than that.    However, the urge to do something can be (and should be controlled).  It is called higher thinking.  It is what seperates us from the animals; we don't have to be governed by instinct and "urges".  Unless it is self defense where your life and health are at risk, there is no justifiable cause to hit a patient.  Lets reverse the situation and say that it was a cop that had handcuffed a suspect, that was sitting down (and not possing an threat), and was beating him.  OMG, it would hit the fan.  Riots get started over this sort of thing, and there is no one here that could rightly justify that behavior.  As an EMT or Medic, check you SOPs... I don't believe you will find anything in them about striking a handcuffed pt while LE is present.  Self defense is another issue, but then it should only be used when no other option exists to ensure your safety, such as walking away!

As I said before, I would like to know what prompted the EMSer to strike this pt, but he had better have one awesome explaination ("I was afraid for my life becasue he was using mind control techniques that made me want a herring and peanut butter sandwich" just won't cut it for me) before I would side with any medical "professional" that hits a restrained patient.


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## JPINFV (Jun 17, 2009)

Linuss said:


> Did you miss the "court proceeding excepted" part?  That was meant to be understood as "innocent until proven guilty". The cop portion was meant as "you're charged with it".
> 
> I'm not new to law, the system or how it works.



See, that's the problem. When police officers begin to think that they are the be all, end all of control, you end up with situations where officers choke medics because they didn't pull over fast enough. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. A charge doesn't mean that anyone committed anything. That is up to the courts, period. After all, even traffic tickets get due process.


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## Shishkabob (Jun 17, 2009)

If you want to argue semantics, you're still mistaken. 

A court doesn't prove if someone did something. A court decides (either a preponderence of evidence, or proof beyond reasonable doubt) that someone probably did something. If courts proved someone did something, then capital punishment would be far more tolerated. 

A charge states there's enough evidence to brine someone to court to face possible punishment.


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## fortsmithman (Jun 17, 2009)

Sasha said:


> I have never ever felt the urge to hit them back.


I too have never felt the urge to hit a pt.  It's certain family members of the pt at the scene I've felt the urge to hit but I kept it in check and never hit.


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## reaper (Jun 17, 2009)

BLSBoy said:


> Bingfreaking-O!!
> *I'm not hardened, crusty urban medic. But I've been working in Atlantic City BLS and ALS for just about 2 years not. *
> "safe" scenes can, and will suddenly become unsafe. PD will not always be there when you need them.
> 
> Sometimes the best thing to disarm a situation isn't taught in the books. Old school works.



Weren't you just in FL last year, in school?


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## exodus (Jun 17, 2009)

Ruh roh......(tenchar)


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