# EMT accused of ignoring dying NYC woman is killed



## bstone

> Police say Jason Green was shot in the face near Manhattan's Greenhouse club Sunday morning. Green was pronounced dead at a nearby hospital. There have been no arrests.



Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100719/ap_on_re_us/us_emts_pregnant_woman

Oh my....how tragic.


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## ExpatMedic0

Thats really sad. What is most disturbing is the publics comments on the yahoo link you provided. Some are hoping the other EMT dispatcher involved is also murdered. I am not sure if everyone remembers that story being posted here a while back... but there was a lot more to the story and clearly no EMS personal should be executed on the street because of shaky call. (if thats what this was about) Disturbing, very disturbing.


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## medic417

Remember public perception.  They perceive that we should all be medical professionals that can save everybody like on TV using common items such as pens, duct tape, and pocket knives.  They see no distinction between dispatcher and Paramedic.  So when they hear or see someone that looks like they are a Paramedic they expect them to do more than call for an ambulance.  

All during history you find cases where public perception has led to mob mentality and action.   I hope this is not the case here.


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## AtalantaAsh

Wow...


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## mar7967

It seems that his death was unrelated to the death of the woman. 

I am slightly confused by the initial death of the woman, and the criminal investigation around that. I assume NYC is the same as NY State. In NY, we only have a duty to act if we are on duty, or off duty AND wearing something that associates you with EMS. (ie I have a duty to act if wearing my corps' t-shirt while off duty.) If he did not have a legal duty to act, there should be no charges.

But I assume since he was on a coffee break, he was probably uniformed (unless their dispatchers don't need uniforms), and probably a break is still technically 'on duty'

medic417 is right...its all about public perception though.


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## Malissa

Wow, Those comment from the public make me sick to my stomach. It is a sad situation, but no one should be wishing death on others.


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## firecoins

The EMT/dispatchers were in uniform at Metrotech Center.  Metrotech Center is a huge complex of buildings which includes the HQ for the FDNY including the dispatch center for the entire city. They went downstairs from their building nto an outdoor food court with an Au Bon PAir.  They were having coffee when a pregnant woman started having seizures.  One of them called for an ambulance. Neither did anymore.  The public perceived this as indifference. They viewed this as all they could do without equipment.


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## Shishkabob

All they could do without equipment AND being EMTs. Heck, even if they had equipment they couldn't stop the seizures.


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## medic417

Linuss said:


> All they could do without equipment AND being EMTs. Heck, even if they had equipment they couldn't stop the seizures.



You know public perception would have been that they were heroes had they just walked over and stayed by her while they waited for the Paramedics to come.  They still actually did nothing for her but dial 911 but public perception would have been that they were trying to save her.  Honestly all they could have done was make sure she did not hit anything during seizure activity.  So lesson for us is be aware that the public sees us so make every appearance of doing something.


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## DrParasite

medic417 said:


> You know public perception would have been that they were heroes had they just walked over and stayed by her while they waited for the Paramedics to come.  They still actually did nothing for her but dial 911 but public perception would have been that they were trying to save her.  Honestly all they could have done was make sure she did not hit anything during seizure activity.  So lesson for us is be aware that the public sees us so make every appearance of doing something.


I thought she died from asthma, not a seizure?

either way, reality is not really the question (ie, what the EMTs could have done and should have done), but rather what the public expects EMTs to do (save everyone's life, despite not having any equipment, or if the damage was too significant for anything to have changed the outcome)


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## firecoins

DrParasite said:


> I thought she died from asthma, not a seizure?
> 
> either way, reality is not really the question (ie, what the EMTs could have done and should have done), but rather what the public expects EMTs to do (save everyone's life, despite not having any equipment, or if the damage was too significant for anything to have changed the outcome)



exactly how do you expect change the public's view?  This is not in our power to do.


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## foxfire

wow..........
That is so sad, to have it happen the way it did.


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## medic417

firecoins said:


> exactly how do you expect change the public's view?  This is not in our power to do.



Actually asthma, seizure, heart attack, what ever it was had they just went and held the patients hand while waiting for the ambulance the public would have viewed them in a positive light.


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## firecoins

medic417 said:


> Actually asthma, seizure, heart attack, what ever it was had they just went and held the patients hand while waiting for the ambulance the public would have viewed them in a positive light.



These people were screwed from the get go.  As long as the pregnant woman died, they were going to get un trouble. If not that they didn't help but they screwed up something even if it was just holding her hand.  This situation was dependant on the pregnant woman dying. If she didn't die, we would never have heard a thing.


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## medic417

firecoins said:


> These people were screwed from the get go.  As long as the pregnant woman died, they were going to get un trouble. If not that they didn't help but they screwed up something even if it was just holding her hand.  This situation was dependant on the pregnant woman dying. If she didn't die, we would never have heard a thing.



Perception would have been better.  Doing nothing and looking like doing nothing are 2 different things in view of the public.


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## Aidey

There is no guarantee that the public wouldn't have still gone after them if all they did was hold her hand. They may not have, but it is very possible they still would have been attacked by the general public/news media. 

The police are now saying that this incident is totally unrelated. I agree that the comments on the news stories are sickening. Reading things like that honestly scare me in this day and age; your actions can be perfectly legal and ethical, but if someone disagrees and it gets on youtube, twitter, facebook or whatever you are screwed. You can't defend yourself, and there is no reasoning with the internet.


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## firecoins

medic417 said:


> Perception would have been better.  Doing nothing and looking like doing nothing are 2 different things in view of the public.



The perception would have been that they did something wrong or failed to do something but hold her hand.


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## medic417

firecoins said:


> The perception would have been that they did something wrong or failed to do something but hold her hand.



So literal.  Hold hand = act busy like you are trying to help patient.  Perception would be better.


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## firecoins

medic417 said:


> So literal.  Hold hand = act busy like you are trying to help patient.  Perception would be better.



The pregnant woman dying will affect the perception more than acting busy.  Acting busy will say they didn't ignore her but her death will say they did something wrong, possibly criminal.  Meaning either way they are screwed.


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## WolfmanHarris

medic417 said:


> Perception would have been better.  Doing nothing and looking like doing nothing are 2 different things in view of the public.



That easily describes a large chunk of EMS calls. Doing very little of substance but looking professional and busy in the process.


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## Cory

I've though about this a lot. I think I would have at least looked at the scene, made sure no one was trying to do something stupid like hold her tongue (thats still common, right?) or that there wasn't another traumatic injury apparent, but I don't think I would have done much more than that. But, I also think instincts would have told me that those people wouldn't be happy when I just walk away.

Something that WE have to understand though, is that to the regular person, violent convulsions look very, very scary. And when people panic, stupid things happen.


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## medic417

WolfmanHarris said:


> That easily describes a large chunk of EMS calls. Doing very little of substance but looking professional and busy in the process.



Exactly.


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## Malissa

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/21/nyregion/21emt.html?_r=1

This article says she died of asthma. It also states that according to the EMT's they never came in contact with the patient only a coworker and that at that time there was no sense of urgency. It's really hard to say what side of the story is correct.


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## firecoins

asthma, seizures whatever.  WHat can 2 EMT-Bs off duty but in uniform do?

The sense of urgency is interpretive.


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## Cory

firecoins said:


> asthma, seizures whatever.  WHat can 2 EMT-Bs off duty but in uniform do?
> 
> The sense of urgency is interpretive.



Agreed, unfortunately the public will never be able to undertsand that logic. And instead, they just slander his name and say things like "Got what he deserved" and it scares me, because I can only imagine what could happen to me in this situation.

But, just to be clear, when it comes to the actual shooting, I'm sure he wasn't so innocent...

Did anyone else see this comment about "EMT neglect"?



> First I want to make clear that, violence never solve the solution to any problem or emotional pain anyone may incur on behalf on another if this is the case. It is very suspicious.
> Second, being an EMT is one of the most stressful jobs you can have.
> Third,I can relate to EMT neglect when I had to use their service for the first time in June of 2007 and was told I was faking by the EMTs while lying on the floor of my home thinking I was having a heart attack or stroke.It's a long story, so I won't take too much of up your time. But, the EMT's went through my personal things in my bedroom, chester drawer, called the police on me all while I was lying on the floor scared to death thinking I was having a heart attack or stroke, (due to my family history & work field) while being taunted to get up due to faking or I would be arrested.
> I don't know what happened to ethics, I'm so sorry 25-year-old Eutisha Rennix lost her life, along with her baby.and I don't know if it could have been prevented, I know I wouldn't want that on my conscious. To me they should have help at least until someone came that was on duty. When you get that desensitized, and feel nothing for a hurt human being, especially a pregnant woman, you need to change jobs.


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## Malissa

I do not think there was anything they could have done while off duty without any gear. I find it sad that so many others do not see it that way. It is amazing what people seem to think an EMT can do or should do.

Maybe if they would have gone to the back to wait with the woman the perception would have been changed but maybe not, the perception may have then became that it was their fault she died because they messed something up. 

I think they where pretty much screwed no matter what decision they made.


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## Malissa

I did read that comment and situations like that scare me. It gives all of us a bad name. 

The shooting also happened after the guy got into a fight on the corner because he was denied entry into a night club. He definitely was not innocent but he still did not deserve to die. It is sad that the public comment focus on their belief that the guy died because of bad karma and there is no focus that the shooter is still on the loose.


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## medic417

Malissa said:


> I do not think there was anything they could have done while off duty without any gear. I find it sad that so many others do not see it that way. It is amazing what people seem to think an EMT can do or should do.
> 
> Maybe if they would have gone to the back to wait with the woman the perception would have been changed but maybe not, the perception may have then became that it was their fault she died because they messed something up.
> 
> I think they where pretty much screwed no matter what decision they made.



Your right nothing they could do w/o gear.  But they could have gone to her side.  Started proper positioning.  By acting professional and busy the public's perception on the events would have been much better.  Would there still have been accusations?  Probably.  But some action is much easier to defend than no action.


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## Aidey

Cory said:


> Did anyone else see this comment about "EMT neglect"?



I didn't, but what I find strange about the comment is that what about thinking they were having a heart attack or a stroke was preventing them from getting up off the floor? I'm not saying I think the person was faking, just that I don't see the logic. 

Malissa - It was someone in his party that was denied entry, and then while the group was standing on the side of the street, someone got mad because they wanted to park where the group was standing. It was someone in that car that did the shooting.


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## Aidey

medic417 said:


> Your right nothing they could do w/o gear.  But they could have gone to her side.  Started proper positioning.  By acting professional and busy the public's perception on the events would have been much better.  Would there still have been accusations?  Probably.  But some action is much easier to defend than no action.



Wait a second, so we should encourage the public's misconceptions about what we can and cant do by looking busy? Initially your logic made sense to me, but the more I think about it, the more I think we should not be playing into the stereotypes just to keep people happy. While it takes a lot more effort, educating the public on the reality of the EMTs capabilities is much better than letting them continue to think we can resuscitate people with car batteries, and pens.


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## Cory

WOAH! Now wait a minute, everyone re-read the first sentence of the report:



> NEW YORK – Jason Green had already gained notoriety last year as a New York City *paramedic* accused of walking away from an ailing pregnant woman who later died.



Now if this is the case, it kinda changes things. I think it's time that reporters learn the difference between EMT and Paramedic.


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## Shishkabob

He wasn't a Paramedic, the reporter is just an ignorant person, much like most of the people commenting in those stories.


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## rhan101277

medic417 said:


> Actually asthma, seizure, heart attack, what ever it was had they just went and held the patients hand while waiting for the ambulance the public would have viewed them in a positive light.



Yeah this goes back to, you can be the best paramedic out there and if someone dies they are more likely to sue you than if you are a terrible paramedic but were very nice to their family member.  I know suing may not be an issue here, but as the above poster said it would bring a more positive light on them.  It is something to keep in the back of your mind on calls.


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## CAOX3

The comments on that website are disgusting.


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## firecoins

This was 1 of 2 EMT-B/dispatchers  working at a dispatch center and not in an ambulance when the asthma attack occurred.  They were just getting coffee.


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## AtalantaAsh

As stated before, I think that the public is going to think whatever, no matter what we do.  I'm an EMT-B and if it was seizures I def. would have done what I was taught, which is to not restrain, but make sure that they won't, if it's violent convulsions, hit anything.  I was told in class that only nurses and doctors have a duty to act when off duty, but I'm under the reasoning that I'm trained in this area, while a nurse that responds could be a... idk... umm... idk anything with an unrelated specialty to emergency care.  It's not just that they were EMT-Bs without equipment, what could a EMT-P do without equipment???  Also, yes the media and public need to be educated in the difference between EMT-B, EMT-I and EMT-P.


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## CAOX3

There is no due process in the court of public opinion.


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## lightsandsirens5

CAOX3 said:


> There is no due process in the court of public opinion.



Never a more true statement was made. 

It looks like one of those "Danmed if you do, danmed if you don't" situations.

And the sad part is, we have created that situation by making EMS into what it is today and what the public thinks of it today.


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## Sasha

I think they were screwed no matter what. They didn't have equipment, they didn't even have a freaking ambulance! They could've held her hand, but I could totally see people getting angry "Do something! Don't just stand their and hold her hand!" and then the headlines would read "Off duty EMTs Hold Dying Pregnant Woman's Hand Instead of Attempting to Save Her" and then the public would still be up in arms, possibly gotten violent against them while they were in the coffee shop holding her hand.


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## medic417

Sasha said:


> I think they were screwed no matter what. They didn't have equipment, they didn't even have a freaking ambulance! They could've held her hand, but I could totally see people getting angry "Do something! Don't just stand their and hold her hand!" and then the headlines would read "Off duty EMTs Hold Dying Pregnant Woman's Hand Instead of Attempting to Save Her" and then the public would still be up in arms, possibly gotten violent against them while they were in the coffee shop holding her hand.



As I replied to someone else that focused on my statement of holding hand is that holding hand = acting like you are trying to help.  People see you taking action they feel better.  As long as you look like you are helping, public perception would have been much better.  Yes there will always be those that claim more should have been done and that occurs everyday on just about every serious call.  But as a supervisor if you at least went to the patient and gave an accurate report it would be easier to back you than if you just dialed 911 then returned to your coffee if there was a complaint filed.


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## Sasha

Exactly how busy can you look with no equipment? You can only take a pulse and reposition for so long until it's obvious you're stalling.


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## medic417

Sasha said:


> Exactly how busy can you look with no equipment? You can only take a pulse and reposition for so long until it's obvious you're stalling.



The public will at least see effort.  Again not saying all will care but it is easier to defend than doing nothing.  Heck get the public involved.  Ask if you can borrow a jacket.  Ask a couple to go out to wave down the ambulance.  All the activity is perceived as positive effort.  Honestly there was no hostility involved from the public until they did nothing.  had they dialed 911 while going to the patient the public would have had no reason to become hostile in the short time it took for an ambulance.


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## Aidey

I never read anything about the public on scene being hostile, just all the people who heard about it after the fact. 

There is still the problem of playing into public perception. I am NOT comfortable with doing things just to look good for the public. It's one thing to be professional and polite, it's another to play-act because that is what people think you should be doing - with no regard for reality. How is them holding her hand and looking busy any different than a show code?


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## reaper

People seem to have it in their minds that you can do nothing, without equipment.

If the pt is seizing, protect them from harm until the seizure stops. Maintain an airway, once the seizure stops.

If the pt is having an Asthma attack, get them in a comfortable position. Hold their hand and talk to them, to keep them as calm as you can. Coach them on their breathing. Assist them with inhaler, if they have one.

All this can be done, till ambulance arrives. Medic417 is absolutely right. This is all a way of helping and the public sees it as helping. This is not "showing", this is helping. There will be people that think you should be doing more. That is why you explain to them that you are doing what you can ,till equipment and meds arrive. Most people are not stupid, they will see this. Yes, you will always have a few ignorant ones that will complain no matter what. But, at least you know you tried all you could.

 To many are scared of lawsuits that never even happen. Do what you can now and deal with the rest later.


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## jjesusfreak01

I agree with reaper. There will always be something you can do in an emergency without equipment, even if its nothing more than trying to reassure and protect the patient. An asthma patient is one of the very few occasions when there is very little you can do without medications as an EMT. I think the EMTs screwed up in this situation by never even making an attempt to help the patient or find out what was wrong with her. Doing a detailed assessment of the patient may give the medics vital information to save the patient when they arrive.

All of that said, if these were simply dispatchers that had an EMT cert, they might not have had any direct patient care experience or assessment experience. They could be as scared as a day 1 emt on that scene.


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## JPINFV

Just having someone on scene with the presence of mind to take command of the scene and ensure what can be done has been done is doing a lot more than just turning your back and walking away.


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## ExpatMedic0

JPINFV said:


> Just having someone on scene with the presence of mind to take command of the scene and ensure what can be done has been done is doing a lot more than just turning your back and walking away.



Agreed. Also they where in uniform and identified as EMT's. Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda, ect ect...
I sure hope at the end of the police investigation this does not link this dispatcher being shot because of the incident in question.

Moral of the story(or at least 1 of them) is if your in uniform and someone needs help, help them. Even if its just reassurance, taking command of the scene, making sure 911 is contacted and waiting for them to arrive, start getting a SAMPLE HX, and look good for the bystanders.


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## Aidey

Ack. Will someone please explain to me why we should help "to look good for the bystanders"? I'm sorry, but that is a horrible reason! If I'm going to step in it will be because I can help in some way, not because it looks good.


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## ExpatMedic0

If your on coffee break in your EMS uniform with an EMT patch on and you simply walk away from a patient, bystanders, and loved ones begging for your help how do you think thats going to look? 
Did you read the comments on that yahoo link and many other news links about the incident in question?


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## JPINFV

So.. here's a question for the "but it's just looking good, it doesn't matter" people. Driving to a posting spot one day, I came across a car on it's side by the middle divider. 3 passangers (15, 40, and an infant), fully restrained. No real complaint outside of the fact that their car is on it's side, hence making them trapped. In a situation like this, I can't do anything except wait for fire to arrive. Since I haven't been dispatched to this call and I can't do anything pending the fire department (which would also include paramedics), why shouldn't I pack up and continue on to my post?


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## ExpatMedic0

JP, I just want to make sure I am understanding you correctly.
Your in your personal vehicle, in your uniform, and come upon this car wreck?


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## medic417

schulz said:


> JP, I just want to make sure I am understanding you correctly.
> Your in your personal vehicle, in your uniform, and come upon this car wreck?



He's in an ambulance.


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## atropine

You should have just packed up and left, My captain kicks the privates off the scene so fast that even if they did have something important to say, which they don't they are gone by the time we set the parking brake.


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## WolfmanHarris

atropine said:


> You should have just packed up and left, My captain kicks the privates off the scene so fast that even if they did have something important to say, which they don't they are gone by the time we set the parking brake.



Weird. I do that with FD most of the time. 

Nah, I'm kidding. I'm a professional. I take report have an orderly transfer of care and only dismiss the FD first responders if I won't need the extra hands for some rare reason.


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## atropine

WolfmanHarris said:


> Weird. I do that with FD most of the time.
> 
> Nah, I'm kidding. I'm a professional. I take report have an orderly transfer of care and only dismiss the FD first responders if I won't need the extra hands for some rare reason.



Yeah, I hear you, I would keep them just to find out what they saw, but bugles on the class B say different, and I don't have any.


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## JPINFV

atropine said:


> You should have just packed up and left, My captain kicks the privates off the scene so fast that even if they did have something important to say, which they don't they are gone by the time we set the parking brake.



That's nice. If I'm on a TC, I give report, ask if they want me to stay and act accordingly. If the fire crew wants to act like a-holes, I don't take it personally.


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## JPINFV

schulz said:


> JP, I just want to make sure I am understanding you correctly.
> Your in your personal vehicle, in your uniform, and come upon this car wreck?



Ambulance. But if I can't effect an extrication, does it matter? All I'm going to do is stand there with my hands in my pockets and make it look like I'm doing anything. 


For the record, this is pure devils advocate for the "Why stop at all" people.


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## reaper

Aidey said:


> Ack. Will someone please explain to me why we should help "to look good for the bystanders"? I'm sorry, but that is a horrible reason! If I'm going to step in it will be because I can help in some way, not because it looks good.



So, you do not consider comfort, scene control or allowing no further harm, helping someone?


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## ExpatMedic0

Update on this story:
http://www.ems1.com/ems-news/851557-nyc-emt-fought-to-the-death-before-assailant-opened-fire/


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## AtalantaAsh

schulz said:


> Update on this story:
> http://www.ems1.com/ems-news/851557-nyc-emt-fought-to-the-death-before-assailant-opened-fire/



Wow...


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## firecoins

that story has the pregnant woman as having a seizure while others say an asthma attack.

Some stories refer to them as EMT, while others say medics.  The fact they were dispatchers isn't even mentioned. 

Some stories say they called while other say they outright refused to do anything.  

The papers carry different accounts.


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## Shishkabob

firecoins said:


> that story has the pregnant woman as having a seizure while others say an asthma attack.
> 
> Some stories refer to them as EMT, while others say medics.  The fact they were dispatchers isn't even mentioned.
> 
> Some stories say they called while other say they outright refused to do anything.
> 
> The papers carry different accounts.



Which is why I hate journalist.


They fail to ever get stories right, they don't care about getting it right, and they just do stories to sell the papers / commercials and not out of any real interest to "inform the people"


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## DrParasite

schulz said:


> Moral of the story(or at least 1 of them) is if your in uniform and someone needs help, help them. Even if its just reassurance, taking command of the scene, making sure 911 is contacted and waiting for them to arrive, start getting a SAMPLE HX, and look good for the bystanders.


NOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Moral of the story: next time you want to take a coffee break, make sure you take off your uniform shirt so no one can identify you as an EMT


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## Aidey

schulz said:


> If your on coffee break in your EMS uniform with an EMT patch on and you simply walk away from a patient, bystanders, and loved ones begging for your help how do you think thats going to look?
> Did you read the comments on that yahoo link and many other news links about the incident in question?





firecoins said:


> that story has the pregnant woman as having a seizure while others say an asthma attack.
> 
> Some stories refer to them as EMT, while others say medics.  The fact they were dispatchers isn't even mentioned.
> 
> Some stories say they called while other say they outright refused to do anything.
> 
> The papers carry different accounts.



Exactly, and as far as I've read NONE of the stories state that anyone was begging them to help. It doesn't even sound like the patrons knew there was something going on until after the dispatcher/EMTs left because the lady was in a back room. One of the few things the accounts seem to agree on is that one employee spoke with the two dispatcher/EMTs. 

A google search turned up this article about cause of death. Honestly, if I was working as a dispatcher, I'm not sure I would have started going through this woman's stuff without her telling me to. 


I'm not saying I wouldn't have done something, but I am saying I _*will not*_ do something just for appearances. If I'm involved in a situation and see that there is nothing I can do, I will tell the family/co-workers/bystanders "There is nothing I can do right now". Followed by whatever further explanation is needed (She needs a medication that the people on the ambulance have, or whatever).


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## AtalantaAsh

Linuss said:


> Which is why I hate journalist.
> 
> 
> They fail to ever get stories right, they don't care about getting it right, and they just do stories to sell the papers / commercials and not out of any real interest to "inform the people"



x1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000


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## medic417

Aidey said:


> I'm not saying I wouldn't have done something, but I am saying I _*will not*_ do something just for appearances. If I'm involved in a situation and see that there is nothing I can do, I will tell the family/co-workers/bystanders "There is nothing I can do right now". Followed by whatever further explanation is needed (She needs a medication that the people on the ambulance have, or whatever).



But then you would wait with her till the ambulance got there I hope.  If yes then you are just by being there appearing to help.  Fine explain that w/o medications all I can do is relay what I am seeing to the 911 operator, but at least you are in the peoples minds making effort and reality you are making ever effort by doing what you can do.


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## ExpatMedic0

Hey man, You can do whatever you want, but I do not want to end up all over the news being slandered and upsetting everyone on the scene. Just your uniformed presence and enthusiasm in wanting to help the patient is a lot better than saying call 911 and leaving.


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## ExpatMedic0

Another update on this. This guy never gets a break, not even when hes dead.
Here are a couple lines from the new article and a link

NEW YORK — A disgraced EMT who last year allegedly ignored a dying pregnant woman's pleas during his break — and was gunned down last week during a street brawl — will get a funeral with full FDNY honors, sources said yesterday.

"He watched a woman die in a coffee shop. That should not warrant the pipe and drums corps," the source said.

http://www.ems1.com/ems-news/852147-full-honor-funeral-planned-for-slain-ny-emt/

Anyone here still wanna be "that guy" to the public instead of doing something, anything....


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## JPINFV

Nope... 

Oh, and for the record, let's just stop teaching everyone first aid. Hell... why teach boy scouts about seizures and how to recognize a heart attack. After all, what's the point if the only thing they can do is call 911?


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## DrParasite

The man was convicted in the court of public opinion, while the investigation still hasn't said he did anything wrong.  He was still on the job, doing his job.

I still believe in innocent until proven guilty, and conviction based on facts, not on various conflicting statements from witnesses.  Nor based on statements from a mayor who makes public statement condoning actions that may not have even happened.

I stand by my earlier statement: the moral of this entire situation is if you go out for coffee on a break, make sure you take your uniform shirt off, so no one can identify you as an EMT.  This way if something does happen, and you help or don't help, no one can accuse you of not doing your job.


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## JPINFV

I didn't realize that anyone was contesting that the only action he did do was call 911 and then walk away. In a situation like this, that's the only facts that matter.


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## DrParasite

JPINFV said:


> I didn't realize that anyone was contesting that the only action he did do was call 911 and then walk away. In a situation like this, that's the only facts that matter.


I agree, only the facts matter.  unfortunately, we don't know what the facts are; all we have is various witnesses, many of whom have given conflicting reports on what the EMTs did and did not do.  In fact, no one has even gotten the EMTs side of the story, since they were advised by legal counsel to not speak to the press.

in fact, when the original incident happened, the person who was always on the news was the deceased patient's mother, who WASN'T EVEN THERE.  So your emotional outrage was coming based on statements from a witness who wasn't there.

I don't know what happened.  I wasn't there.  I read many many news articles on this incident.  several witnesses, several different statements, several different views on what was done and what wasn't done.  and some say the EMTs did more than say call 911 and leave, while others say they said to call 911 and finished their sandwich, another said they call dispatch directly and requested an ambulance, and one said they checked on her.  I wasn't there, I don't know, and I'm sure the investigation would find the truth.

Here is what I do know, and what are facts: FDNY has a Rat Squad, whose sole purpose is to investigate allegations of impropriety in FDNY; This FDNY EMT dispatcher was under investigation, but was not suspended, not fired, and any results of the investigation have not been completed nor reported to the public, and was still certified as an EMT by both NYS, the DOH, and REMAC; in this country, we believe in innocent proven guilty, yet the court of public opinion never plays by those rules, but we (his fellow EMS people) should support our brothers & sister unless they are proven to have committed the crime they have committed.

But that's just my views, your views on how we should view this field might vary.


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## ExpatMedic0

I never said he committed a crime, Maybe you could argue "Duty to act" but I am not even talking about that. I do not think anyone is.


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## JPINFV

DrParasite said:


> Here is what I do know, and what are facts: FDNY has a Rat Squad, whose sole purpose is to investigate allegations of impropriety in FDNY; This FDNY EMT dispatcher was under investigation, but was not suspended, not fired, and any results of the investigation have not been completed nor reported to the public, and was still certified as an EMT by both NYS, the DOH, and REMAC; in this country, we believe in innocent proven guilty, yet the court of public opinion never plays by those rules, but we (his fellow EMS people) should support our brothers & sister unless they are proven to have committed the crime they have committed.


Innocence until proven guilty doesn't relieve us of coming to a decision based on the information at hand. Just because the "rat squad" (which shows your complete bias, by the way) didn't decide anything doesn't mean anything. Just because East Palo Alto PD doesn't seem to care that one of their officers made a murder threat on face book (Rod Tuason) or Seattle PD doesn't care that their officers commit what would otherwise be a hate crime (Shandy Cobane), and regardless of what their "rat squad" says, doesn't relieve or prevent me from forming an opinion based on the information provided. Just because it isn't illegal or against any policy for an EMT in uniform to ignore someone asking for help because they're on break of off duty doesn't mean that I have to ignore it. 

As far as "supporting our brothers and sisters," hell no. The only time that tired line is dragged out is when someone screws up. It's the "brother and sister and supporting without question" attitude that got 2 BFD fire fighters killed in 2007 who were both, according to leaked results (and I'll wager a sizable sum that there's a reason why the results weren't released), under the influence of intoxicating substances (at least 2 times the legal limit of alcohol, adjusted for decomposition, and cocaine). When you support people who do stupid things, you condone doing stupid things and are just as bad as those doing stupid things. Sorry, but someone who would just walk away while in uniform is not a brother of mine. I'd argue that neither is someone who would just walk away out of uniform as well, but there's a big difference between being Bob, and EMT Bob. 

Why is true professionalism so hard to find in EMS?


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## firecoins

JPINFV said:


> Innocence until proven guilty doesn't relieve us of coming to a decision based on the information at hand.


 Your free to come with any opinion you want.  The information at hand is lacking at best. We have several different media accounts of what happaned.  The media stories should NOT be trusted. My experience with EMS and NYC media would lead me to believe that the media hasn't the slightest idea what happaned.

If your basing true professionalism on what you think happaned here, you should just stop looking. Incorrect media accounts are not the place to look.


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## JPINFV

Ok, does anyone have a news article or other source that stated that the two EMT dispatchers waited around until they could hand off to a responding ambulance crew?


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## emt seeking first job

My apologies for starting another thread.

IMHO, the EMT Dispatchers should have remained on scene, disregarded their food (what EMT can afford $8 at Au Bon every day...hear of a thermos?) and stay with patient until ambulance arrival or someone from the building respond with a bag of gear.

Had they stayed at the scene and awaited the ambulance, and the public made a fuss, I would have supported them.

I supported the Security Guards in in the transit station, Seatle I think, who got :censored::censored::censored::censored: for standing by while passenger assaulted....because they did their job, called it in, maintained visual contact from a safe distance, and awaited police....the public gave them :censored::censored::censored::censored: but everywhere i could I posted they did what their job was.

These dispatchers did not.


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## firecoins

How do we know they did not stay on scene until the ambulance got there?   A news article?  We do not have the account of anyone on scene.  The people who feel most strongly against what the EMT did or did not do have based their opinions on articles with unknown accuracy.  

No one here has spoken to the 2 EMT/dispatchers, one whom is now dead. 

No one here has spoken to the LICH or FDNY units that responded.


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## emt seeking first job

Yes, I see your point.

In that case, I would be interested in reviewing the investigation reports and witness statements.

Had I been in the same scenario, I would asked AuBon for gloves, have sat patient in the postion of comfort, call 911, then call the dispatch directly to expedite and have someone respond from building with a bag, I would have coached the woman to breathe normally, assisted with abuterol if she had it, and directed a compitent person to wait outside and escort the responding EMTs in to the store. I would have relayed info to them.

Then I would have walked away and drank my coffee.


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## emt seeking first job

And after reviewing all the posts.

I will strongly consider never going to a store of any kind in uniform.

This is not only to CYA, but also to save money on take food.

Had these EMTs brown bagged and thermos food and drink....the drama would not have happened.

I am 44 years old, I have probably spent over $ 100k on needless crappy takeout food in my life....


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## Aidey

emt seeking first job said:


> Yes, I see your point.
> 
> In that case, I would be interested in reviewing the investigation reports and witness statements.
> 
> Had I been in the same scenario, I would asked AuBon for gloves, have sat patient in the postion of comfort, call 911, then call the dispatch directly to expedite and have someone respond from building with a bag, I would have coached the woman to breathe normally, assisted with abuterol if she had it, and directed a compitent person to wait outside and escort the responding EMTs in to the store. I would have relayed info to them.
> 
> Then I would have walked away and drank my coffee.



Right, because it is completely ethical to expedite an ambulance when there might be other calls that are classed as more severe going on? 

As 46 pointed out, we really have no idea what happened, and basing the info off the news reports is no better than guessing. It hasn't even been confirmed that these two saw the patient, or were ever in the same room as her. Heck, news reports can't even agree on whether she had an asthma attack (this is reported more often) or a seizure. 

Also, WHO CARES where they get their coffee? Seriously? You're going to go after them for not brown bagging it and spending $8 a day on coffee and a danish? Totally not relevant.


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## Shishkabob

And I also love how totally unrealistic his account of what he'd do truly is.


A bit too "by the book" and clean for real world.


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## ffemt8978

Reading some of the comments in this thread prompted me to go looking for the original one (here for reference http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=16260)

Posted in that thread was this article http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/..._mom_die_mrj8Jv8kjmS0Z3FNO4DmiL#ixzz0aH3OguQm which stated 





> "I remember them saying they couldn't do anything because they were on  their break," another worker said. "We started screaming and cursing at  them."


Also posted in that thread was this article http://www.ems1.com/ems-management/...s-say-they-werent-asked-to-examine-ill-woman/ which states 





> NEW YORK — The emergency medical technicians accused of refusing to  help a dying pregnant woman were never asked to examine her or told the  extent of her condition, their lawyer said Thursday.
> Attorney  Douglas Rosenthal said his clients were only asked to summon an  ambulance  <snip>  , and that other employees didn't  seem overly concerned about her condition.
> "There was no apparent panic," Rosenthal said in a statement.
> 
> _** <snip> meant only to comply with Fair Use and not change context**_


  It goes on to state 





> Rosenthal said Jackson radioed for an ambulance and she and Green, a six-year veteran, stayed until they knew help was coming.


So the one thing that is painfully obvious is that we don't know exactly what happened (especially considering the contradictory statements that were made)...yet it is equally obvious that people are willing to judge others and even go so far as to detailing out what they would do if they were placed in the same scenario.


​


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## firecoins

I would like to add that these were 2 *DISPATCHERS* with an EMT-B certification.  As far as we know they just have the certification and have no experience, paid or volley, in providing pt care. 

The fact that the news stories stress the EMT-B and sometimes refers to them as paramedics implies incorrectly that they provide patient care on a regular basis.


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## JPINFV

firecoins said:


> I would like to add that these were 2 *EMT-Bs* who were dispatchers.  As far as we know they just have the certification and have no experience, paid or volley, in providing pt care.


See what I did there? 

My father is an engineer. He has no formal medical training. New Years Eve he was at a party where an elderly gentlemen fell and broke his leg. He was able to take charge of the scene, keep other people from trying to move the gentleman, provide a feeling that the scene was under control (the other bystanders who had no medical training on one hand challenged his feeling that it was best not to stand the gentleman up, but no one wanted to actually take over), ensure that 911 was called, and stayed with the man until the ambulance arrived. 

Does anyone here want to say what he did was wrong? If not, how can an engineer with zero medical training provide better care than two EMTs who are dispatchers?


/cool story bro...


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## firecoins

first of all, no newspaper has referred to
your dad as a medic.
2nd your father provided what medical care?
Not standing the guy up? 
3rd you have decided that conflicting news
accounts should not slow your rush to 
judgement. 


JPINFV said:


> See what I did there?
> 
> My father is an engineer. He has no formal medical training. New Years Eve he was at a party where an elderly gentlemen fell and broke his leg. He was able to take charge of the scene, keep other people from trying to move the gentleman, provide a feeling that the scene was under control (the other bystanders who had no medical training on one hand challenged his feeling that it was best not to stand the gentleman up, but no one wanted to actually take over), ensure that 911 was called, and stayed with the man until the ambulance arrived.
> 
> Does anyone here want to say what he did was wrong? If not, how can an engineer with zero medical training provide better care than two EMTs who are dispatchers?
> 
> 
> /cool story bro...


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## Shishkabob

Then, JP, why couldn't another civilian do that in the given circumstance?  Why did the EMTs have to if a civilian would have been just as useful?


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## JPINFV

Linuss said:


> Then, JP, why couldn't another civilian do that in the given circumstance?  Why did the EMTs have to if a civilian would have been just as useful?



Why should lay providers be expected to step in and provide care over a uniformed provider with formal medical training? Doesn't the person with formal medical training and in uniform have an ethical and moral obligation to provide said care? Are you also going to claim that most civilians can keep their heads on straight enough to provide even competent first aid in situations going past minor scrapes and bumps? If so, your faith in the average human is much greater than mine. 




firecoins said:


> first of all, no newspaper has referred to
> your dad as a medic.
> 2nd your father provided what medical care?
> Not standing the guy up?
> 3rd you have decided that conflicting news
> accounts should not slow your rush to
> judgement.



To the best of my knowledge, that incident never made it to the newspapers. 

Next, I honestly don't give a damn about whether the news papers described them as being a paramedic or an EMT. I don't expect newspapers or reporters to know everything about EMS or medicine. Furthermore, the distinction between the two is a moot point. The fact is that two people with formal emergency medical education couldn't give two _____ about the fact that they had said training and left. Even their lawyer admits to as much. 

"Rosenthal [the EMTs lawyer] said Jackson radioed for an ambulance and she and Green, a six-year veteran, stayed until they knew help was coming."

Furthermore, "A union covering emergency workers has said that all dispatchers are required to be field-trained EMTs or paramedics in order to be more effective at their jobs, and are capable of getting involved in emergency situations. The New York Fire Department says all members take an oath to help others whenever emergency medical care is needed."

So apparently, either the reporter from the AP can't do her job or it's some grand conspiracy that includes the fire department, the EMTs' union, and their lawyer because the combination of all three statements says that the EMTs were certified and trained (both in the sense of initial EMT training and field training), were bound by oath to provide what care they could, and instead left after making a phone call. Now go ahead. Call their lawyer a biased liar. 


Quotes from:
http://www.ems1.com/ems-management/...s-say-they-werent-asked-to-examine-ill-woman/


Edit:
Oh, and for the record. If I'm walking to my car after a clinical or lab day in my short white student coat and someone flags me down to help. I think it's damn well expected that I, even as a medical student, should stick around until EMS arrives instead of just getting in my car and speeding off. Even though in the practical sense, someone who has completed EMT training is much more competent at providing care, even just basic care, than a first or second year medical student who may or may not have any sort of other health care training (which would describe most of my classmates). Hell, we don't even go through BCLS and ACLS until the end of our second year at my school, but I guarantee you that the person who needs help doesn't care even if all I do is stick around till the ambulance arrives.


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## Shishkabob

Ethical?  No way.

Moral? Just as much as the next guy to do what they can, which when it comes to not only the minimal intervention ability of an EMT, but also probably little experience, and no equipment, is pretty much on par with what civilians can do in that situation:  Do nothing but look pretty.


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## JPINFV

Oh, something else to think about. If it's no big deal because they 'couldn't do anything' then the entire mentality of "The emergency is over when two dudes in a vehicle with flashy lights shows up" is complete and utter bull poop. How could the emergency be over by the arrival of two dudes and a mobile light show if no interventions were completed? Hell, in the terms of EMTs, then no emergency is over until the arrival of paramedics or delivery to the emergency room.


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## Shishkabob

Just saying it's silly to think that EMTs with no equipment (and likely little if any real experience) could do ANYTHING besides look pretty for the proverbial cameras.


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## firecoins

JPINFV said:


> Why should lay providers be expected to step in and provide care over a uniformed provider with formal medical training? Doesn't the person with formal medical training and in uniform have an ethical and moral obligation to provide said care? Are you also going to claim that most civilians can keep their heads on straight enough to provide even competent first aid in situations going past minor scrapes and bumps? If so, your faith in the average human is much greater than mine.


As uniformed members they should have stuck around pending they didn't. However there was nothing medical that could been done be 2 dispatchers who took an EMT class with no equipment to speak of.  





> To the best of my knowledge, that incident never made it to the newspapers.


How do we know your father did what you say he did?  You weren't there so he must have told you.  You didn't read varying accounts of the incident that are questionable.



> Next, I honestly *don't give a damn a*bout whether the news papers described them as being a paramedic or an EMT.


Your not giving a damn about a factual account of events is quite odd. One story has paramedics telling panicked bystanders they couldn't help becuase they are on their break and another story has dispatchers simply being asked by calm bystanders to call for an ambulance which they did.  The woman had an asthma attack or seizure.  Nothing these 2 dispatchers could have done would have saved this woman's life. 

2 years ago The NY Daily News quoted hospital sources saying New York Ranger Sean Avery died.  Apparently after a playoff game, Avery went home and collapsed. He rushed to Saint Vincent hospital in cardiac arrest where he was pronounced around midnight. 

Around midnight I was doing a medic rotation in the ICU and Sean Avery was wheeled in on a cot. He was a/ox4 with the team MD and his girlfriend. Apparently he collided with a player in the first period causing abd pain. He played the rest of the game. Afterwards he told the tema MD and they drove his car to the ED and he walked in.  He never went home, collapsed, took an ambulance or coded.


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## Melclin

emt seeking first job said:


> Yes, I see your point.
> 
> In that case, I would be interested in reviewing the investigation reports and witness statements.
> 
> Had I been in the same scenario, I would asked AuBon for gloves, have sat patient in the postion of comfort, call 911, then call the dispatch directly to expedite and have someone respond from building with a bag, I would have coached the woman to breathe normally, assisted with abuterol if she had it, and directed a compitent person to wait outside and escort the responding EMTs in to the store. I would have relayed info to them.
> 
> Then I would have walked away and drank my coffee.



That does sound a tad like a 50's instructional video. "Here we can see that little johnny has provided FIRST AID...Thanks johnny *Johnny waves at audience* Now run along back to school before teacher gives you a F Johnny AHAHA". I see this assist patient with medication BS all the time in first aid literature. How much assisting can you really do when a person needs a pill or a puff?


Now I just can't be arsed sifting through this thread, but I will say this, knowing that its probably been said before. 

I don't think the EMTs could have done anything at all and they did not disadvantage this woman in anyway. That said, they are still idiots because they should have been able to see how much of a PR disaster it would be. Even if she lived and it didn't make the news, it still reflects badly on the service for no other reason than the public are simply not aware of the fact that there is nothing the EMTs could have done and would interpret a flippant remark as they exited the building to be gross negligence. How the hell didn't they see that coming? At the very least they could have explained it or acted in a way that placated the public (Although I must say, we don't actually know for sure that they didn't).


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## jjesusfreak01

Patient in the cancer ward at your local hospital dies...think of the difference of these two situations.

Situation 1: Doctor was on vacation in Maui when patient died, exclaims "there was nothing we could do".

Situation 2: Doctor was at the bedside of his patient, holding her hand when she died, tells the family "there was nothing we could do".

This might be the same situation, and there may have been nothing medical that the EMTs could do, but lets be honest here. Are there any EMS providers on this forum that think that just being there for the patient, holding their hand, letting them know they aren't alone won't make a difference? Sorry for my annoyance at the situation, I just finished reading Firetender's book.


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## Shishkabob

And which would make the public more angry?

The people who aren't there, or the people who ARE there and do nothing but stare at the patient?


You have to remember, the public automatically thinks we can pull an AED out of our butts and save someone, even when off duty and beyond our scope.


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## Bloom-IUEMT

Couldn't do anything..
What if she coded?


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## JPINFV

firecoins said:


> As uniformed members they should have stuck around pending they didn't. However there was nothing medical that could been done be 2 dispatchers who took an EMT class with no equipment to speak of.


Because the only thing EMS does on scene is medical? I'll ask again, given the reaction to this case, how could the mindset of "the emergency is over when two doods in the mobile woo woo vehicle show up" be true? 



> How do we know your father did what you say he did?  You weren't there so he must have told you.  You didn't read varying accounts of the incident that are questionable.


Unlike apparently you (since you're even asking this), I have no reason to believe my father lies to me. I'm sorry that you can't trust your father. 



> Your not giving a damn about a factual account of events is quite odd. One story has paramedics telling panicked bystanders they couldn't help becuase they are on their break and another story has dispatchers simply being asked by calm bystanders to call for an ambulance which they did.  The woman had an asthma attack or seizure.  Nothing these 2 dispatchers could have done would have saved this woman's life.



Again, I don't expect reporters to be all knowing being of everything, especially when EMS can't get its own titles standardized across 50 states.  Furthermore, the distinction between an EMT and a paramedic means zero in this case.  This isn't the first time and won't be the last time that some reporter who isn't an expert in EMS mixes up the title of EMT and title of paramedics. 

In fact, I'd go a step further. The difference between someone with formal medical training and someone without is the only distinction that means anything in this case. If it was a physician eating lunch who was wearing something that ID'ed him as a physician, and someone approached him requesting help, I'd expect the same thing out of him as I'm expecting out of these two EMTs. This isn't about being a hero. This isn't about saving the world. It's about doing the right thing. 


> 2 years ago The NY Daily News quoted hospital sources saying New York Ranger Sean Avery died.  Apparently after a playoff game, Avery went home and collapsed. He rushed to Saint Vincent hospital in cardiac arrest where he was pronounced around midnight.
> 
> Around midnight I was doing a medic rotation in the ICU and Sean Avery was wheeled in on a cot. He was a/ox4 with the team MD and his girlfriend. Apparently he collided with a player in the first period causing abd pain. He played the rest of the game. Afterwards he told the tema MD and they drove his car to the ED and he walked in.  He never went home, collapsed, took an ambulance or coded.



Associated Press is now at the same level of a NY rag?


I don't know. Apparently I hold myself to a higher standard than NY EMTs hold themselves and some of this board holds themselves.


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## JPINFV

Melclin said:


> That does sound a tad like a 50's instructional video. "Here we can see that little johnny has provided FIRST AID...Thanks johnny *Johnny waves at audience* Now run along back to school before teacher gives you a F Johnny AHAHA".


Best instructional film.. ever...
http://www.hulu.com/watch/12551/dodgeball-adaa-film


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## JPINFV

Linuss said:


> And which would make the public more angry?
> 
> The people who aren't there, or the people who ARE there and do nothing but stare at the patient?
> 
> 
> You have to remember, the public automatically thinks we can pull an AED out of our butts and save someone, even when off duty and beyond our scope.



Or option 3. The people who are there, see or have knowledge of a person in distress, and then walk away?


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## DrParasite

*FDNY EMTs say they weren't asked to examine ill woman*



> NEW YORK — The emergency medical technicians accused of refusing to help a dying pregnant woman were never asked to examine her or told the extent of her condition, their lawyer said Thursday.





> Attorney Douglas Rosenthal said his clients were only asked to summon an ambulance on Dec. 9 when they were taking a break in a Brooklyn eatery. He said Jason Green and Melisa Jackson never saw Eutisha Rennix, who was in the back of the Au Bon Pain store, and that other employees didn't seem overly concerned about her condition.  "There was no apparent panic," Rosenthal said in a statement.





> Rosenthal said Jackson, a four-year veteran, was asked by an employee to summon an ambulance because the six-months-pregnant Rennix was showing asthmic symptoms and was experiencing abdominal pain.  Rosenthal said Jackson radioed for an ambulance and she and Green, a six-year veteran, stayed until they knew help was coming.  "They were thanked by the employee for their response," he said.


for the rest of the article
http://www.ems1.com/ems-management/...s-say-they-werent-asked-to-examine-ill-woman/


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## JPINFV

Because EMTs should be calling 911 without knowing what is wrong and on request?


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## jjesusfreak01

JPINFV said:


> Because EMTs should be calling 911 without knowing what is wrong and on request?



It's interesting looking at the numerous different accounts and pieces of information here...

Did they "radio in", or just request that store owners call 911? A dispatcher wouldn't carry a radio on a lunch break (or ever), would they? 

Were they asked to help after being notified that help was coming, or did they think it was a minor situation and leave without being asked?

Like I said earlier, I'd give them a break because they are working as EMDs, not EMTs regardless of certification, but it would be nice to have a real accurate account of the incident.


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## DrParasite

Sorry to bump such an old thread, but apparently the civil suit was thrown out by the judge as well (back in 2014, I know, I just saw this while looking at something completely unrelated).
http://thesocialmedic.net/2014/04/judge-throws-out-lawsuit-against-fdny-dispatcher/

So for all the huffing and puffing and moral outrage that occurred following this incident, the FDNY brass requested that all charges be dropped (because they realize that although everyone, including the NYC Mayor who went on live TV condemning the city employee, jumped to conclusions before all the facts were known, and in the end had to admin that they were wrong), and now the civil suit was dismissed as a matter of law.  

This whole fiasco is a direct result of trial by media, when the emotional response is used to condemn a person before all the facts are known.

Back to your regularly scheduled banter


----------

