# Stethoscopes....



## omak42 (May 8, 2009)

So I just lost my Magna Fortis Metacardia and purchased another one.....however in looking for their contact number I came across quite a few threads from a couple years ago on peoples thoughts about stethoscopes.  So I figured I would ask.....What do people out there think of Magna Fortis (seems to only be somewhat popular in EMS and unknown in other fields), and what do people think is the best stethoscope to get?


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## firemedic7982 (May 8, 2009)

I carry a Littmann Master Cardiology. 

Just go ahead and make the Littmann switch. They have several different models, at different price points. All are superior in acoustical ability.


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## omak42 (May 8, 2009)

well heres my thing.....im a poor medic student who is getting married soon, so that means not a whole lot of money to play with.....i had a magna fortis and was fairly pleased with it.  i would say maybe a small step lower than littman quality, not worth mentioning tho.  beyond that my training officer has an educational discount with magna fortis, so i got a cardiology stethoscope for $95....cheaper than a littman cardiology regardless of where you buy it


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## trevor1189 (May 8, 2009)

firemedic7982 said:


> I carry a Littmann Master Cardiology.
> 
> Just go ahead and make the Littmann switch. They have several different models, at different price points. All are superior in acoustical ability.



I have the cardiology III and really like it. I have also seen quite a few master classic IIs being used and some littman lightweight s.e.'s

I do like the master classic II in all black, very sharp. But I already have my blue cardiology III which is over qualified, so I'm set.


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## firemedic7982 (May 8, 2009)

Its all a matter of personal prefference. There are people on this site that will use the size of their stethoscope to compare to the size of their.... wll you know where this is going. 

In the long run whatever works for you. I prefer littmann, but thats not to say anything for anyone else other than me. 

If you can hear in the back of the truck, it fits your budget, and you like it... That is truly the mark of quality.


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## silver (May 8, 2009)

and let the littmann fanboy sponsorship begin...

try playing around/testing with some other peoples scopes in your service and class. It is all personal preference so it doesnt really matter what people here say much.


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## omak42 (May 8, 2009)

i agree.  just curious to know what people think and like.....im sure some day ill make the switch to littman...i thought about it this go around.  just opted out for now


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## trevor1189 (May 8, 2009)

firemedic7982 said:


> If you can hear in the back of the truck, it fits your budget, and you like it... That is truly the mark of quality.



+1

ten char


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## trevor1189 (May 8, 2009)

silver said:


> and let the littmann fanboy sponsorship begin...



Instead of starting something why not just advise the OP as to what you like? After all this thread is asking for opinions.


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## Sasha (May 8, 2009)

> and let the littmann fanboy sponsorship begin...



+1

ten char


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## silver (May 8, 2009)

trevor1189 said:


> Instead of starting something why not just advise the OP as to what you like? After all this thread is asking for opinions.



i did edit it before you posted but yeh... "try playing around/testing with some other peoples scopes in your service and class. It is all personal preference so it doesnt really matter what people here say much."

and im not starting anything I have a littmann too

look at DRG they have pretty cool scopes with comparable acoustics and a bit cheaper. They also come with scope covers which is a plus.


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## omak42 (May 8, 2009)

trevor1189 said:


> Instead of starting something why not just advise the OP as to what you like? After all this thread is asking for opinions.




just interested in opinions not arguments....


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## Sasha (May 8, 2009)

omak42 said:


> well heres my thing.....im a poor medic student who is getting married soon, so that means not a whole lot of money to play with.....i had a magna fortis and was fairly pleased with it.  i would say maybe a small step lower than littman quality, not worth mentioning tho.  beyond that my training officer has an educational discount with magna fortis, so i got a cardiology stethoscope for $95....cheaper than a littman cardiology regardless of where you buy it



Kila scopes have good acoustics and are much cheaper than Littmann's. I very recently bought a bright orange one. It's awesome.


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## Lunah (May 8, 2009)

I bought myself a master classic II in all black when I finished medic school, and my partner bought me a cardiology III when I got my RN. But the old rule always applies -- it's not just what you have, it's how you use it. *cough* Seriously, I just took this seminar: http://www.stethoscopeskills.com -- I recommend it. She travels all over the place.


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## firemedic7982 (May 8, 2009)

+1 

If you ever have an opportunity to take a stethoscopy seminar, I would do it.

I have been to a couple, and learned some really cool stuff.


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## medic417 (May 8, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Kila scopes have good acoustics and are much cheaper than Littmann's. I very recently bought a bright orange one. It's awesome.



Yup I have two Kilas excellent sound.  Nice heavy tubing minimizes outside noise.


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## Shishkabob (May 8, 2009)

I LOVE my Littmann Select.




That is all.


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## NomadicMedic (May 8, 2009)

+1 on the Kila.


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## daedalus (May 8, 2009)

Ok, so I feel I am finally ready to make a stethoscope recommendation. There is nothing sillier than seeing an EMT student or even a medic student with a master cardiology stethoscope. I see very few Cardiology attendings with these. I try not to judge people based on silly criteria, but this is just over the top. However, if you value yourself and your profession, you should obtain at least a decent stethoscope. The qualities you are looking for are lightweight and not too expensive. Your going to get to a point with your cardiology steth that it is just too heavy and annoying around your neck. Your also going to lose it eventually. A model that fits this criteria, and is good enough for all a EMT, Paramedic, or most MD's needs is the Littman Classic II. Lightweight, sexy, and not over the top.


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## omak42 (May 8, 2009)

actually the reason i got a cardiology scope is cause they are a lot more insulated then any other types.  besides i like to be prepared for ANYTHING that I will come across and yes as a medic, or even a medic student, sometimes you have to listen to heart tones....and wait....isnt that cardiac????  hmmmmm cardiac.....cardiology....i see a coralation there.  so dont sit there and call something silly when you dont experience it.  i have had uses for my cardiology scope as an emt-b.  and i can take the weight....never gotten in my way in the two years that i had it


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## omak42 (May 8, 2009)

"The qualities you are looking for are lightweight and not too expensive"

those may be the qualities YOU are looking for...I really dont care about weight....just price and performance


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## HotelCo (May 8, 2009)

I use a $17.00 Sprague. Can't see why I'd need anymore more than that.


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## omak42 (May 8, 2009)

im sure there will come a day you feel differently


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## HotelCo (May 8, 2009)

Perhaps one day, later on in my medical career. But for now, I don't do anything that I need anything more.


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## omak42 (May 8, 2009)

and thats a good reason not to buy anything more expensive


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## silver (May 8, 2009)

omak42 said:


> actually the reason i got a cardiology scope is cause they are a lot more insulated then any other types.  besides i like to be prepared for ANYTHING that I will come across and yes as a medic, or even a medic student, sometimes you have to listen to heart tones....and wait....isnt that cardiac????  hmmmmm cardiac.....cardiology....i see a coralation there.  so dont sit there and call something silly when you dont experience it.  i have had uses for my cardiology scope as an emt-b.  and i can take the weight....never gotten in my way in the two years that i had it



do you like diagnose heart murmurs in the field or something?


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## AJ Hidell (May 8, 2009)

omak42 said:


> just interested in opinions not arguments....


What was wrong with the opinions you read in all the other stethoscope threads you say you found here?  Did you think the opinions had changed since this was last asked, just a couple weeks ago?  Did you happen to notice that those discussions usually take place in the proper forum, and not the EMS Talk forum?


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## omak42 (May 8, 2009)

its nice to hear them and know they are there.....


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## AaronMRT (May 8, 2009)

I use a Littman II S.E. and I like it.


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## omak42 (May 8, 2009)

i dont settle with just knowing the basics as a medic....i prefer to go above and beyond whats expected of me.  which is why i prefer to have the most "state of the art" (so to speak) equipment available to me.  if that seems to be over the top to you so be it....


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## daedalus (May 8, 2009)

omak42 said:


> i dont settle with just knowing the basics as a medic....i prefer to go above and beyond whats expected of me.  which is why i prefer to have the most "state of the art" (so to speak) equipment available to me.  if that seems to be over the top to you so be it....



That cardiology scope is not going to make up for the lack of cardiac auscultation skills that most paramedics and paramedic educators possess. That cardiology scope is not going to help you go above and beyond. It will not even help you hear heart sounds better, because it is designed to be used by people who have an incredible ear for heart sounds, which you do not. The only man I have ever known who could probably make use of a cardiology stethoscope was my pediatric cardiologist. He is an attending at UCLA in peds and ped cards, and was one of the first pediatric cardiologists in Los Angeles. He uses a Sprague. Yet, he diagnoses VSDs, valve disorders, etc, with uncanny precision and accuracy by auscultation, only to be confirmed later on echocardiography. All his residents with their 100 dollar cardiology stethoscopes still rely on that sonogram to make their diagnoses for them because they lack 45 years of listening to healthy and sick hearts that this man has. This os a forum of ideas and opinions, and everyone is going to be able to post what they want, if you do not like it and have nothing constructive to say (like proof that a cardiology stethoscope positively affects the outcomes for EMS patients), than you can just ignore them.  

I may only be a paramedic student here on this forum, but I have five years of healthcare experience in an internal medicine clinic where I have learned a lot about the day to day practice of real medicine. I am telling you that all of my experiences tell me that a cards scope is not needed for prehospital care or even most MDs. I do not care if you decide to use one or not. I could not care less. But if you post something here, expect it to be read and judged by your peers. Iif you do want here other opinions, than this forum is not for you.


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## omak42 (May 9, 2009)

and i can care less if you judge me or not.....i have found what works for me and i am going to stick with it regardless of what anyone says.  you may not find use with it but from my experience it is built with better equipment and yes it allows you to hear things a little better.  as far as me reading past posts...i never said that they were on here...and i do believe that stethoscopes are used in EMS therefore it is a perfect topic on an EMS forum website regardless of where it is.  think what you want of me because i like to have better equipment then the cheapest stethscope i can find....and tho it may be more than i need i got it at an incredible price and being that someday i am going to pursue a career in cardiology seems like a fitting instrument to me


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## daedalus (May 9, 2009)

omak42 said:


> and i can care less if you judge me or not.....i have found what works for me and i am going to stick with it regardless of what anyone says.  you may not find use with it but from my experience it is built with better equipment and yes it allows you to hear things a little better.  as far as me reading past posts...i never said that they were on here...and i do believe that stethoscopes are used in EMS therefore it is a perfect topic on an EMS forum website regardless of where it is.  think what you want of me because i like to have better equipment then the cheapest stethscope i can find....and tho it may be more than i need i got it at an incredible price and being that someday i am going to pursue a career in cardiology seems like a fitting instrument to me



I told you I am not going to judge you by the stethoscope you use. I also told you not to take what I say and apply it to yourself. I offered my opinion, and you can take it or leave it. My point was, on this forum, your going to find opinions that you do not agree with. Do not take them personally, but try to learn from them with an open mind.


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## AJ Hidell (May 9, 2009)

omak42 said:


> i have found what works for me and i am going to stick with it regardless of what anyone says.


Then why are you wasting our time asking for opinions?  :unsure:


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## A140160 (May 9, 2009)

If your so set on this cardiology steth, why did you even start this thread?  If it helps, I use a 15 dollar generic scope, and it gets the job done.


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## omak42 (May 10, 2009)

i wanted to know peoples opinions on the different brands and what they used.....not to use for my shopping endeavors but just to know what people thought.  if you read my first thread you would have seen that i said i already bought another one.

daedulus:
I am aware that peoples opinions will differ from my own and I respect that....we are all different thats why we talk to each other.  I just took your original post as almost a personal attack on me....simple misunderstanding.  Yes I agree with the part that a cardiology steth is more than anyone in this field needs....however from my experience they do get a little bit better quality and given where I work and the situations I have to deal with I feel that quality adds to my ability to hear certain things a little bit better.  Sorry for the misunderstanding


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## daedalus (May 11, 2009)

omak42 said:


> i wanted to know peoples opinions on the different brands and what they used.....not to use for my shopping endeavors but just to know what people thought.  if you read my first thread you would have seen that i said i already bought another one.
> 
> daedulus:
> I am aware that peoples opinions will differ from my own and I respect that....we are all different thats why we talk to each other.  I just took your original post as almost a personal attack on me....simple misunderstanding.  Yes I agree with the part that a cardiology steth is more than anyone in this field needs....however from my experience they do get a little bit better quality and given where I work and the situations I have to deal with I feel that quality adds to my ability to hear certain things a little bit better.  Sorry for the misunderstanding


Thats perfect. You owe no one any explanation on why you use a particular piece of equipment. I admire your drive to be the best.


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## firemedic7982 (May 11, 2009)

daedalus said:


> I may only be a paramedic student here on this forum, but I have five years of healthcare experience in an internal medicine clinic where I have learned a lot about the day to day practice of real medicine. QUOTE]
> 
> So EMS is fake medicine?


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## AJ Hidell (May 11, 2009)

firemedic7982 said:


> So EMS is fake medicine?


In most systems, yes.

Saying that EMS is real medicine is like saying painting by the numbers is real art.


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## omak42 (May 12, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> In most systems, yes.
> 
> Saying that EMS is real medicine is like saying painting by the numbers is real art.



So what makes a system "fake" as opposed to "real" medicine?


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## AJ Hidell (May 13, 2009)

Advanced education and independent practice.


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## omak42 (May 13, 2009)

So are you saying that EMT-Basics and EMT-Intermediates dont practice real medicine?


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## AJ Hidell (May 13, 2009)

omak42 said:


> So are you saying that EMT-Basics and EMT-Intermediates dont practice real medicine?


While there are rare exceptions, generally speaking, yes.

For that matter, neither do most paramedics.  It has nothing to do with your patch.  It is about your system.


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## daedalus (May 14, 2009)

firemedic7982 said:


> daedalus said:
> 
> 
> > I may only be a paramedic student here on this forum, but I have five years of healthcare experience in an internal medicine clinic where I have learned a lot about the day to day practice of real medicine. QUOTE]
> ...


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## daedalus (May 14, 2009)

omak42 said:


> So are you saying that EMT-Basics and EMT-Intermediates dont practice real medicine?



EMTs and EMT-Is do not practice any sort of medicine. Its first aid.


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## CAOX3 (May 14, 2009)

daedalus said:


> EMTs and EMT-Is do not practice any sort of medicine. Its first aid.



No one in EMS is practising medicine.


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## AJ Hidell (May 14, 2009)

CAOX3 said:


> No one in EMS is practising medicine.


I wouldn't go that far.  I would however agree that few are doing it legally.


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## daedalus (May 14, 2009)

CAOX3 said:


> No one in EMS is practising medicine.



It is a general belief that Paramedics practice out of hospital medicine. They do after all have knowledge in anatomy, physiology, pathophysiology, and pharmacology. They use that knowledge to formulate differential diagnosis and treat the patient with drugs and techniques usually reserved for physicians and advanced personal in the hospital.


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## CAOX3 (May 14, 2009)

daedalus said:


> It is a general belief that Paramedics practice out of hospital medicine. *They do after all have knowledge in anatomy, physiology, pathophysiology, and pharmacology*. They use that knowledge to formulate differential diagnosis and treat the patient with drugs and techniques usually reserved for physicians and advanced personal in the hospital.



So do I.

Except I am not under the impression that eight months or two years of training allows anyone to practise medicine 

I have a few friends with upwards of ten years of education and hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans that would probably agree.


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## daedalus (May 14, 2009)

CAOX3 said:


> So do I.
> 
> Except I am not under the impression that eight months or two years of training allows anyone to practise medicine
> 
> I have a few friends with upwards of ten years of education and hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans that would probably agree.



The certification you carry does not require A&P and the like, so it is moot point. Until you go to paramedic school, you cannot really comment on the education or abilities they have.


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## CAOX3 (May 14, 2009)

daedalus said:


> The certification you carry does not require A&P and the like, so it is moot point. Until you go to paramedic school, you cannot really comment on the education or abilities they have.



Whooooo I'm impressed entry level A&P classes.   Big accomplishment.

Dont assume you know my educational background or what was required.

Quantitative Chemical Analysis, Molecular Biology now thats a challenge.

You want to practice medicine go to med school.


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## Ridryder911 (May 14, 2009)

CAOX3 said:


> Whooooo I'm impressed entry level A&P classes.   Big accomplishment.
> 
> Dont assume you know my educational background or what was required.
> 
> ...



How is that working for you? 

My grocery sacker has an advanced degree in mathematics as in meteorology but that would not be a hurt but not help in medicine either. Wise one would hopefully, choose the appropriate courses associated with the profession. 

Sorry, when one make a clinical impression (diagnosis) based upon from the knowledge of education. Then upon the hypothesis and clinical assessment; yes you do practice medicine (in some form). No, physicians are not the only ones that can perform that.  

R/r 911


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## medic417 (May 14, 2009)

We practice medicine.  We must make a diagnosis and treat.  At times that treatment may just be transport but our diagnosis led to that choice of treatment.  For those that just want to be ambulance drivers find a new job.


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## emtjack02 (May 14, 2009)

*Just wow*

I am constantly amazed at the post on this forum.  There is often talk of getting more respect for prehospital providers and most the time people come up with education being a cornerstone.  Yet, we chop people down because they decide not to go to medic school.  Yet we commonly debate the merits of many of the medic schools around.  Because we follow a SMO does not mean we are practicing medicine.  
I would like to see EMS working together not constantly cutting eachother down.  
As for the OP...at my full time gig I use a Master Cardiology. At my vol ambulance we have anything from a Cardiology III, Select.  I also like the DRG scopes.  And to the poster that asked if you dx murmurs...yes..that weren't document prior. Of course, it was no problem for the pt so you're right I didnt make a difference.  Until one has a skilled ear they might need all the help they can get. 
Be safe.


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## daedalus (May 14, 2009)

CAOX3 said:


> Whooooo I'm impressed entry level A&P classes.   Big accomplishment.
> 
> Dont assume you know my educational background or what was required.
> 
> ...



All those classes mean nothing when you cannot practice at an advanced level. (Not to devalue education, but simply having taken classes with big names does not make you a better provider, and does not make you understand the roles of a paramedic)

I usually am a strong advocate for advanced education, but taking a handful of upper division science classes does not give you the right to chop down paramedicine (which you are not a part of).

I will repeat myself, the certification you carry does not require A&P and the like, so it is moot point. Until you go to paramedic school, you cannot really comment on the education or abilities they have. I have a year of gross anatomy and human physiology. Far from entry level.


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## omak42 (May 15, 2009)

whatever happened to the saying good BLS makes great ALS....or however you happened to learn it.........EMT-Basics and Intermediates make up the cornerstone of what paramedics do.  I agree with EMTJACK that it is amazing how you can be one way on a topic one minute and the other the next.  Ask any medic that has been around for a while and I guarentee they will put a lot of credit for their success on the basics around them.  Yea maybe they dont have a year of A&P, a lengthy pharmocology background, or even as much pathophysiology....but I do believe they have training.  And when you have training you use it to practice in whatever field you are.  Whether its as simple as looking at someone and using your judgement to decide whether this person is having trouble breathing and are you going to use a NC or NRB?  Im sorry if you guys work in a system that doesnt allow you to do anything but in the system I work we actually rely on our basics and intermediates to practice medicine...i know because i am one.


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## AJ Hidell (May 15, 2009)

omak42 said:


> whatever happened to the saying good BLS makes great ALS....or however you happened to learn it....


Most of us outgrew those silly platitudes after only a few years of experience.



> EMT-Basics and Intermediates make up the cornerstone of what paramedics do.


Uhhh... no.  The silly saying you quote is referring to the simple ABC skills of BLS, not to BLS providers themselves.



> Ask any medic that has been around for a while and I guarentee they will put a lot of credit for their success on the basics around them.


Epic FAIL.  Ask me.  Go ahead, ask me.  I've been a medic in the field longer than probably anyone else on this forum, and I give zero credit to any EMT-B for my success.  I was successful because I worked and studied hard, and had great guidance from other medical professionals all along the way.  There is nothing that any EMT-B has ever done for me that another paramedic could not have done better.  And in fact, for most of my career, I have worked in systems where there were no EMT-Bs.  Can't say I ever missed them.



> Im sorry if you guys work in a system that doesnt allow you to do anything but in the system I work we actually rely on our basics and intermediates to practice medicine...i know because i am one.


You know nothing.  You don't even know the meaning of "practicing medicine", yet you presume to discuss it.  I don't care how wonderful you think your basics and Intermediates are, they aren't practicing medicine, at least not legally, or with the blessing of their medical director.  They're simply providing monkey-see-monkey-do, paint by the numbers first aid.  I know it gives you a warm and tingly feeling to pat them and yourself on the back for all your awesomeness, but it's all irrelevant.  Maybe someday, once you have a significant education and experiential background, you'll realise how silly your current thinking is.  If you're lucky, you'll figure it out quicker than I did.  I hope so.  I really do.


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## Meursault (May 15, 2009)

Gods below, this thread has gone from one topic that's been beaten to death to another that's been beaten to death with bruised egos, speculation about the quality of care delivered by other posters*, tenuous assertions, and questionable logic. 

*On SDN, Burnett's Law applies to a similar phenomenon. It's a slightly modified Godwin's Law and has the same effects. I propose that the law also holds here, with the addition that ad hominem attacks on the opponent's department or certification level also invoke it.

I'd name it after the member that helped me realize the inanity of discussions like this, but I've been told that it would get me b&. So it's :censored:'s law unless anyone has any better ideas.


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## CAOX3 (May 15, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> How is that working for you?
> 
> My grocery sacker has an advanced degree in mathematics as in meteorology but that would not be a hurt but not help in medicine either. Wise one would hopefully, choose the appropriate courses associated with the profession.



Your looking at education under a microscope, fifty percent of college credits toward a degree have nothing to do with area of study, education is about forming a well rounded individual.

I applaud you grocery bagger, maybe he chooses to do that.  I don't sit in judgment of personal decisions.



Ridryder911 said:


> Sorry, when one make a clinical impression (diagnosis) based upon from the knowledge of education. Then upon the hypothesis and clinical assessment; yes you do practice medicine (in some form). No, physicians are not the only ones that can perform that.
> R/r 911



When one practices medicine they are not confined to a box that was provided to them, EMS providers for the most part treat symptoms not underlying problems.  When we do someday practice medicine, if that in fact becomes the direction you wont be confined to the constraints of the truly educated, you will rest solely on your education, experience and clinical judgment to form diagnosis and treatment plans.

I also respect your comments for the most part on this forums, they are insightful, respectful and educational, however I am not an eighteen year old fresh out of mommy's basement.  I am an educated person who CHOOSES to function as an EMT not through restraint but by choice.  With that decision solely I am a asset to EMS. I don't need, crave or sit in wait for your acceptance or respect.


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## AJ Hidell (May 15, 2009)

It doesn't matter if you have a doctorate in rocket surgery, man.  That's yesterday.  Today you are in EMS, and you are back at square 1.  You now have to work your way back up another totem pole.  If you don't like that prospect, you should have stayed in whatever field you were doing so wonderful in before.

Do you get respect for your educational achievements?  Absolutely.  Certainly from me, at least.  But you seem to think that makes you more of an EMT than the next guy, and I'm sorry, but it does not.  And no amount of flexing and feeling sorry for yourself is going to change that.


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## CAOX3 (May 15, 2009)

daedalus said:


> All those classes mean nothing when you cannot practice at an advanced level. (Not to devalue education, but simply having taken classes with big names does not make you a better provider, and does not make you understand the roles of a paramedic).



Classes with big names  Oh so if the education lies outside the grasp of the paramedic student its a class with a big name?



daedalus said:


> I usually am a strong advocate for advanced education, but taking a handful of upper division science classes does not give you the right to chop down paramedicine (which you are not a part of)..



If you think I'm chopping down the importance of EMS, your dead wrong.  I am just not confused about my role. 



daedalus said:


> I will repeat myself, the certification you carry does not require A&P and the like, so it is moot point. Until you go to paramedic school, you cannot really comment on the education or abilities they have. I have a year of gross anatomy and human physiology. Far from entry level.



Stop repeating, your wrong, my EMT class required both anatomy and physiology as pre-requisites.  I can comment on anything I choose. Any undergraduate education in the states is basically entry-level.

When EMS requires education we can discuss it, until then lets not run around blasting people who hold the certifications necessary to operate in it because you took a few college classes you feel you have the right.  Respect your coworkers what ever the level while working TOGETHER to change the profession.  

When you become one of my medical directors you can pick and choose who operates in your system, unfortunately you would have to take a few of those classes with the big names.

You certainly have the attitude part of your profession down, for the sake of your community lets hope you spent as much time mastering the other aspects of your duties.


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## CAOX3 (May 15, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> It doesn't matter if you have a doctorate in rocket surgery, man.  That's yesterday.  Today you are in EMS, and you are back at square 1.  You now have to work your way back up another totem pole.  If you don't like that prospect, you should have stayed in whatever field you were doing so wonderful in before.
> 
> Do you get respect for your educational achievements?  Absolutely.  Certainly from me, at least.  But you seem to think that makes you more of an EMT than the next guy, and I'm sorry, but it does not.  And no amount of flexing and feeling sorry for yourself is going to change that.



I have not worked in any other field besides EMS, by choice.

It does not make me more of anything, besides a well rounded individual, its unrelated.   

EMS does not require education.  It requires training.

Who feels sorry for themselves? Again I work in EMS by choice.


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## Ridryder911 (May 15, 2009)

CAOX3 said:


> I have not worked in any other field besides EMS, by choice.
> 
> It does not make me more of anything, besides a well rounded individual, its unrelated.
> 
> ...



Unfortunately, you are correct ... it requires training and EMT's are trained and not educated within the curriculum taught (no matter where you have taken it in the U.S.). To be in medicine though, one should have an education within the science to provide care. Alike you said, many of those who take first aid training. If one does not understand the difference between education and training; chances are they do not have an education. 

If your program required an collegiate level anatomy and physiology level for an EMT program it is a rarity and definitely not the norm. EMT alike MFR is the entry level for EMS, as the curriculum is developed for that purpose. 

R/r 911


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## CAOX3 (May 15, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> Unfortunately, you are correct ... it requires training and EMT's are trained and not educated within the curriculum taught (no matter where you have taken it in the U.S.). To be in medicine though, one should have an education within the science to provide care. Alike you said, many of those who take first aid training. If one does not understand the difference between education and training; chances are they do not have an education.
> 
> If your program required an collegiate level anatomy and physiology level for an EMT program it is a rarity and definitely not the norm. EMT alike MFR is the entry level for EMS, as the curriculum is developed for that purpose.
> 
> R/r 911



I apologise to Omak for hyjacking his thread.

Actually all EMS, EMT or medic requires training.  Education is a personal choice.

I agree with your statements Rid.  It was along time ago, unfortunatley they dont anymore. 

Either way I am no different for better or worse then any other EMT.  I have never claimed to be.  Being a professional is a personal choice, there are doctors, nurses, professors, from A to Z who never reach professionalism.  It isnt defined by education or training its defined by attitude and behavior.  I agree we all need more education we also need more professionalism.


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## emtjack02 (May 15, 2009)

I fear I am in a EMS that is stuck way back..I didn't think I was.  The really only difference in my system between medic and emti is the I's must call in for a few meds and I believe they maynot be able to do crics. With what seems to be a shortage of medics, at least in this area, I am impressed that there are places that don't have basics.  For much of the country I doubt that is true.  A basic that may have a few more education classes that allows them to see things more indepth most likely is more help than a basic that has only the basic "training."  A good basic will my my job easier therefore providing better pt care.


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## omak42 (May 15, 2009)

CAOX3 said:


> I apologise to Omak for hyjacking his thread.
> 
> Actually all EMS, EMT or medic requires training.  Education is a personal choice.
> 
> ...



Its ok CAOX3 everyone likes a good heated debate.....I agree with you though education is a personal choice....I made that choice as a basic because I was dedicated to the field of EMS and wanted to do my best.  So I taught myself to look for underlying problems not just look at a patient and say they look like they are having problems breathing lets throw O2 on them.  I sat there and based off of what I studyied myself asked questions that would get me answers way beyond what I needed to know....for me and for the medics that would eventually be taking care of this patient.  Maybe I couldnt do anything to treat it but I still searched for the problem myself without following a flow chart.  THAT is what I consider practicing medicine.  Maybe I couldnt push the meds to help fix it but thats the easy part of practicing medicine.  ANYONE can push a med that you give them, anyone can place an ET tube, etc.

As far as AJ....well congratulations on making GOD status....I bet your even one of those ****head medics that everyone is so thrilled to have on scene when you show up because you just think you know anything and everything about every situation.  I know plenty of medics that have been in this career for 20+ years in this area and ARE grateful for the help of basics.  And again I credit that to the system I work in.  Im not saying anything like we are the most awesome EMT-Bs and Is in the country....what I AM saying is that we have great instructors that care about what they do and care about the success of their students as Basics.  Not every system has that so you do have basics that just read how to do something in a book and repeat it on a patient.  My instructors actually went into depth about processes going on in the body.  And your right I may not have any experience as a medic, but I have been through the whole didactic portion, so I do have education.  And because of my work ethic probably a lot more that needed and probably a lot more than what you had in your medic class.  So say what you want about my education/training because you know nothing about it or me.

My suggestion for you AJ is to get off your freaking pedestal before you fall and the only thing that shows up to haul you off to the hospital are basics


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## daedalus (May 15, 2009)

CAOX3 said:


> Classes with big names  Oh so if the education lies outside the grasp of the paramedic student its a class with a big name?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It is great to know your EMT class required A&P prior to starting, and like I have said before, a student with full college level A&P will find themselves wanting more in EMT class, and they will be less willing to accept the dumbed down explanations provided.

I am not knocking down EMTs. I am an EMT, as are most of my friends. What I am saying is I do not practice any sort of medicine as an EMT, and I will be as a paramedic (with an inadequate education to do so).


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## emtjack02 (May 15, 2009)

daedalus said:


> What I am saying is I do not practice any sort of medicine as an EMT, and I will be as a paramedic (with an inadequate education to do so).



Surprised to hear you say that the thing we more or less have been discussing is in adequate...I do have to wonder why you would want to "practice medicine" with an inadequate education.  That just doesn't seem like you'd be a safe provider.  
And are there different levels of practicing medicine because really it seems that people here are comparing themselves to physicians with education and (gasp) training that far goes beyond most everyone on this forum.


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## daedalus (May 15, 2009)

emtjack02 said:


> Surprised to hear you say that the thing we more or less have been discussing is in adequate...I do have to wonder why you would want to "practice medicine" with an inadequate education.  That just doesn't seem like you'd be a safe provider.
> And are there different levels of practicing medicine because really it seems that people here are comparing themselves to physicians with education and (gasp) training that far goes beyond most everyone on this forum.



It is not safe. Head desk.

I have been here for a year discussing why it is not safe for paramedics to practice without more comprehensive education.


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## emtjack02 (May 15, 2009)

OP hope you got the answers you were looking for.  Sorry we hijacked you.


daedalus said:


> It is not safe. Head desk.
> 
> I have been here for a year discussing why it is not safe for paramedics to practice without more comprehensive education.


Seriously not to be argumentative but is there some source of medics being unsafe out there or do you just feel, like apparently many others,  that medics could be better educated.


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## VentMedic (May 15, 2009)

emtjack02 said:


> OP hope you got the answers you were looking for. Sorry we hijacked you.
> 
> Seriously not to be argumentative but is there some source of medics being unsafe out there or do you just feel, like apparently many others, that medics could be better educated.


 

Well, we do have the many headline grabbing incidents where Paramedics can not pass simple competency tests or even EMT-B exams with cheating. We now have much data about the competency rates of ETI which has also led to reluctance to expand protocols for DAI or RSI. We have areas where, if 12-lead ECG is even done, the machine will do the interpretation. You can find the results of one example pertaining to Los Angeles for that which is embarrassing to say the least. 

Much of it depends on the medical oversight. Many medical directors dumb down the protocols to get pass the inadequacy in education and set up the recipes to where the least harm can be done.


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## Ridryder911 (May 15, 2009)

emtjack02 said:


> OP hope you got the answers you were looking for.  Sorry we hijacked you.
> 
> Seriously not to be argumentative but is there some source of medics being unsafe out there or do you just feel, like apparently many others,  that medics could be better educated.



Not just medics, but I am sure you would also agree nurses, respiratory therapists, and so on....

I as you might have also, have seen once the "goal" of reaching the license level many health care providers become complacent. Titles or being specialized from a professional board such as CEN, CCRN and so on does not mean one has accomplished anymore than another nurse but it does represent that person took upon themselves to have recognized the need of continuing onward within their education and profession. That at the least they have met having  knowledge, experience, and standards developed by their professional peers within that specific area. 

One of the reasons I continue my specialized certifications. Personally, I never study for the exams and take them "cold turkey". I use the exams as my guide of my "baseline" knowledge; as I feel it is a lifelong obligation I made to my profession(s) to study continuously and not just be prepared for an examination.

R/r 911


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## VentMedic (May 15, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> Not just medics, but I am sure you would also agree nurses, respiratory therapists, and so on....
> 
> I as you might have also, have seen once the "goal" of reaching the license level many health care providers become complacent. Titles or being specialized from a professional board such as CEN, CCRN and so on does not mean one has accomplished anymore than another nurse but it does represent that person took upon themselves to have recognized the need of continuing onward within their education and profession. That at the least they have met having knowledge, experience, and standards developed by their professional peers within that specific area.
> 
> ...


 
CCRN is not a good comparison since the RN had meet basic work requirements in an actual CCU/ICU before testing for that credential. After they receive their credential, the continuing education is a fair amount to maintain. 



> Critical care practice as a registered nurse is required for 1,750 hours in direct bedside care of (adult, neonatal or pediatric) acutely or critically ill patients during the 2-year period preceding date of application, with 875 of those hours accrued in the most recent year preceding application. All 1,750 hours must be in care of same patient population (for example, for the adult CCRN exam, all 1,750 hours must be caring for acutely/critically ill adult patients). Clinical practice hours accrued in an undergraduate student role are NOT acceptable. Nurses serving as manager, educator (in-service or academic), CNS or preceptor may now apply their hours spent supervising nursing students or nurses *at the bedside*. Nurses in these roles must be actively involved in caring for patients at the bedside; for example, demonstrating how to measure pulmonary artery pressures or supervising a new employee or student nurse performing a procedure.


 
http://www.aacn.org/WD/Certifications/Content/ccrn.pcms?menu=Certification#Initial

However, few states have standards for a Paramedic to call themselves CCEMT-P. Some employers will hand out the title after a 2 hour backroom inservice. Others who do take the CCEMTP course (80 -120 hours of basic overview) through UMBC do not know the letters stand for Critical Care Emergency Transport Program, not critical care Paramedic. They can also be used by anyone completing the course. Thus, there is no minimum standard that shows education or even CC experience when using the title CCEMT-P.  They may not even need any experience as a working Paramedic to add these letters behind their name.

The FP-C is also just a knowledge exam and many who can comprehend some good study material can pass without hands on experience.


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## Ridryder911 (May 15, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> We have areas where, if 12-lead ECG is even done, the machine will do the interpretation. You can find the results of one example pertaining to Los Angeles for that which is embarrassing to say the least.



Ironically, when I was at the NREMT; I was fortunate to meet one of the educators from (Clinical Field Internship Coordinator, UCLA Daniel Freeman Paramedic Program) that teaches the 12 lead portion for LA County and discussed this with her. She was appalled of what had been discussed and printed in regards to the County and City FD. She went into great detail to ensure me that they do NOT rely upon the "idiot box" as has been described and that their 12 lead course was several weeks long and portions taught by several cardiologist. 

I will attempt to contact her for possibly clarification on many things that has been previously reported that I have found to be error. I was happy to see that they had cadaver anatomy lab and the number of live intubations during intubation clinicals was much more than I had expected. 

I agree there is problems, but the best method is not always discounting and removing rather address the source of the problems and correcting it. 

R/r 911


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## VentMedic (May 15, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> Ironically, when I was at the NREMT; I was fortunate to meet one of the educators from (Clinical Field Internship Coordinator, UCLA Daniel Freeman Paramedic Program) that teaches the 12 lead portion for LA County and discussed this with her. She was appalled of what had been discussed and printed in regards to the County and City FD. She went into great detail to ensure me that they do NOT rely upon the "idiot box" as has been described and that their 12 lead course was several weeks long and portions taught by several cardiologist.


 
Maybe she should talk to this person:
http://www.jems.com/news_and_articles/articles/Paramedics_Activate_Cath_Lab_STEMI_Patients.html


> "But we have 2,500 paramedics [and 27 provider agencies] in L.A. County," Rokos said, "And obviously we can't train everyone to read ECGs." So Los Angeles County has paramedics rely on an automated computer ECG interpretation. "All they have to do is read ***Acute MI, and that's their ticket to go," he said.


 
Or this where they decided to instruct the paramedics on how to recognize artifact better or just transmit the tracing and let the doctor decide.



> Poor tracings are a major contributor to false positive activation: artifacts or wavy baseline. This can be reduced by ensuring good electrode placement, reducing patient movement and/or proper setting of ECG filters according to manufacturer instructions. When the paramedic has any suspicion of artifact or irregular baseline on an ECG reading STEMI, the ECG should be repeated prior to base contact and/or transport when time allows. Paramedics should notify the base or the SRC of a tachycardia or paced rhythm in patients with suspected STEMI.


 
http://ems.dhs.lacounty.gov/pdf/FallNewsletter1007.pdf 

These are just two examples from their own publications which haven't left much to make up stories about.


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## daedalus (May 15, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> Ironically, when I was at the NREMT; I was fortunate to meet one of the educators from (Clinical Field Internship Coordinator, UCLA Daniel Freeman Paramedic Program) that teaches the 12 lead portion for LA County and discussed this with her. She was appalled of what had been discussed and printed in regards to the County and City FD. She went into great detail to ensure me that they do NOT rely upon the "idiot box" as has been described and that their 12 lead course was several weeks long and portions taught by several cardiologist.
> 
> I will attempt to contact her for possibly clarification on many things that has been previously reported that I have found to be error. I was happy to see that they had cadaver anatomy lab and the number of live intubations during intubation clinicals was much more than I had expected.
> 
> ...



Well than why is 12 lead interpretation out of LA county scope of practice? Trust me, LA county paramedics are idiots. Daniel Freeman is an idiot factory. 

Heard at a city fire station the other day "I need some help with this wax" say engineer. Probie fire/medic gets up to help because he feels it is his obligation. Engineer says "Sit back down mother F'er, I want a firefighter, not a paramedic".


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## Ridryder911 (May 15, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> CCRN is not a good comparison since the RN had meet basic work requirements in an actual CCU/ICU before testing for that credential. After they receive their credential, the continuing education is a fair amount to maintain.
> 
> http://www.aacn.org/WD/Certifications/Content/ccrn.pcms?menu=Certification#Initial



Let's be realistic as well. I know of many of so called "patient contact" that occurs in the hospital environment. Many hospitals also use these certifications as part of their promotional grades, and will have associated CCRN preparatory courses. 

True, what of what you reported ;but as well I know realistically that many educators, managers, directors of ICU's that have not been "bed side" for many years and still take and pass the CCRN. Yes, they keep up the knowledge and also all is needed is a signature from an immediate supervisor to take the examination. The term "... critical care"... is not well defined either to AACN. This could be from the cath lab, burn center, ICU, HEMS or even an EMS that provides IFT for patients needing such speciality. Fortunately, they did divide the age levels into specific areas.

I do agree with you, if one could pass such an examination I would doubt that they did not have the knowledge and some previous experience within that specific area. Again, the whole focus is ensuring that the professional meets the criteria within that specific scope. 

Yes, I too agree that the CCEMT/P is too broad of a term. Unfortunately mainly due to the vagueness in the Medicare ruling for SCT. Yes, in comparison the two courses are definitely different and even now as I review to assist in teaching portions of the CCRN review course for a local ICU, it is contains a broader medical focus. The hand outs are remarkable and the power point for the instructor(s) are clean and well developed. 

Fortunately or unfortunately (depending upon how one looks at it) I have been named to make a recommendation to our State licensing committee on what should be or not be required for the Critical Care Paramedic. I do feel IAFP appears to be one of the best ways to meet this requirement with their new CCP-C test. Although alike the CCRN there is no specific course to become one, the FP-C examination has demonstrated one has to have had some form of additional education and accompanying experience. This can be a requirement to become a CCP within our state. I will be closely monitoring the results as the test is released this fall. 

One of the reasons I am recommending CCP-C  test is because of the credibility the FP-C has obtained and not "restricting" one into a specific area. Courses can be developed for the CCP level and requirements of bed side experience can also be added. 

I am however; very cautious that we do not want to limit or restrict one from being able to take the test that might meet the basic requirements. For example if Vent was to come to my state, I would want to ensure her to be able to use her knowledge, education and experience to be able to challenge the test and be able to provide that level of care. The reason I am against having one specific course. 

R/r 911


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## Ridryder911 (May 15, 2009)

I will ask her to reply if not I will see her in Florida this late summer at the National EMS Educators conference (as she will be one of the speakers). All I can go upon is her statements as being associated with the program. 

R/r 911


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## emtjack02 (May 15, 2009)

daedalus said:


> Well than why is 12 lead interpretation out of LA county scope of practice? Trust me, LA county paramedics are idiots. Daniel Freeman is an idiot factory.
> 
> Heard at a city fire station the other day "I need some help with this wax" say engineer. Probie fire/medic gets up to help because he feels it is his obligation. Engineer says "Sit back down mother F'er, I want a firefighter, not a paramedic".



I do not know any EMS from Cali let along LA county.  But I do caution you with the over generalizations.  I don't have much respect for the clinical knowledge of several people I work with but if some one said all blank county medics are idiots I'd have thing or two to say.  

I suppose there are a lot of stories about medics doing stupid things.  But as ryder pointed out Im sure there are similar things in different professions. 
Be safe.


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## Sapphyre (May 15, 2009)

emtjack02 said:


> I do not know any EMS from Cali let along LA county.  But I do caution you with the over generalizations.  I don't have much respect for the clinical knowledge of several people I work with but if some one said all blank county medics are idiots I'd have thing or two to say.
> 
> I suppose there are a lot of stories about medics doing stupid things.  But as ryder pointed out Im sure there are similar things in different professions.
> Be safe.



As someone who works in LA County, I can tell which medics went to the aforementioned school.  They don't even TRY to look at the strip, they DO wait for the "idiot box" interpretation.  And the ones that went elsewhere, yeah, it's just as obvious, and not just with 12-lead interpretation.


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## daedalus (May 15, 2009)

I hated to say that, I really did. But I cannot make excuses for them any longer.


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## AJ Hidell (May 16, 2009)

omak42 said:


> ....I bet your even one of those ****head medics...


Profane personal attacks?  Good thing the moderators here don't care.



> I know plenty of medics that have been in this career for 20+ years in this area and ARE grateful for the help of basics.  And again I credit that to the system I work in.


I do too.  But it's not a credit.  It's a deficiency.  Since your medics never get medic partners, they are grateful for whatever help they can get.  But if they spent a few shifts with a real partner, instead of just a helper/driver, they'd never want to work with you again.  Bet on it.



> Im not saying anything like we are the most awesome EMT-Bs and Is in the country....what I AM saying is that we have great instructors that care about what they do and care about the success of their students as Basics.  Not every system has that so you do have basics that just read how to do something in a book and repeat it on a patient.  My instructors actually went into depth about processes going on in the body.


That's wonderful for preparing first responders, or EMTs who work a basic-only system.  But it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference in your usefulness to a paramedic partner.  He's still 100 percent responsible for 100 percent of the care for 100 percent of his patients instead of having a partner to share that responsibility with.  A basic is a basic.



emtjack02 said:


> Seriously not to be argumentative but is there some source of medics being unsafe out there or do you just feel, like apparently many others,  that medics could be better educated.


If you actually read much here, you'll see that those of us who pound on the inadequacies of EMS education consistently do so across the board, sparing no level.  I have just as much trouble -- if not more-- with paramedic education as I do with EMT training.  Why do you think we are criticizing LA area paramedic schools here in this same thread?



daedalus said:


> Well than why is 12 lead interpretation out of LA county scope of practice? Trust me, LA county paramedics are idiots. Daniel Freeman is an idiot factory.


The really sad thing is that Freeman is still one of the best medic schools in the area.  That's a sad statement on the state of affairs in LA.  But I think that much of the problem at Freeman is not as much the school as it is the calibre of student they typically take.  Garbage in = garbage out.


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## daedalus (May 16, 2009)

AJ Hidell


The really sad thing is that Freeman is still one of the best medic schools in the area.  That's a sad statement on the state of affairs in LA.  But I think that much of the problem at Freeman is not as much the school as it is the calibre of student they typically take.  Garbage in = garbage out.[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> I would tend to agree. Any school that lets you strut around in your fire uniform and lets you intern in a system with protocols like LAs is going to suck no matter their other attributes. I would think they would have a better program if they truly brought it under the control of the Geffen School of Medicine (beyond the superficial way they are articulated now) and did their rotations at Westwood where the real teaching hospital is.
> 
> Instead the school is in a dumpy abandoned lot in Inglewood (ghetto) far far away from UCLA, where the only association between the two schools is by name, and if you asked a an MD at Westwood what the Freeman school was he would shrug his shoulders.


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## zzyzx (May 16, 2009)

daedalus said:


> I would tend to agree. Any school that lets you strut around in your fire uniform and lets you intern in a system with protocols like LAs is going to suck no matter their other attributes. I would think they would have a better program if they truly brought it under the control of the Geffen School of Medicine (beyond the superficial way they are articulated now) and did their rotations at Westwood where the real teaching hospital is.
> 
> Instead the school is in a dumpy abandoned lot in Inglewood (ghetto) far far away from UCLA, where the only association between the two schools is by name, and if you asked a an MD at Westwood what the Freeman school was he would shrug his shoulders.



You are so wrong!  Don't judge the school by some of its graduates. Having gone there myself and knowing most of the faculty, I can tell you that it is an xlnt program with a terrific faculty. And yes, I did my clinicals at UCLA also. I understand your frustration with EMS in L.A. County, but please don't make blanket generalizations about a school that you have not attended.

Before going to D.F., I also had a bad image of it because of some of the terrible medics I came across in L.A. As it turned out, going to D.F. was a wonderful experience. The problem is that some (though certainly not all or even most) of the firefighters that are sent their only want to get their medic badge for pay and career advancement. Believe me, the people who run the program hate the state of EMS in L.A. just as much as you do.


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## willbeflight (May 16, 2009)

trevor1189 said:


> I have the cardiology III and really like it. I have also seen quite a few master classic IIs being used and some littman lightweight s.e.'s
> 
> I do like the master classic II in all black, very sharp. But I already have my blue cardiology III which is over qualified, so I'm set.




I have a Littman Cardiology one also.  I love mine and for the ones that can't afford a new one,  look on ebay.


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## willbeflight (May 16, 2009)

daedalus said:


> That cardiology scope is not going to make up for the lack of cardiac auscultation skills that most paramedics and paramedic educators possess. That cardiology scope is not going to help you go above and beyond. It will not even help you hear heart sounds better, because it is designed to be used by people who have an incredible ear for heart sounds, which you do not. The only man I have ever known who could probably make use of a cardiology stethoscope was my pediatric cardiologist. He is an attending at UCLA in peds and ped cards, and was one of the first pediatric cardiologists in Los Angeles. He uses a Sprague. Yet, he diagnoses VSDs, valve disorders, etc, with uncanny precision and accuracy by auscultation, only to be confirmed later on echocardiography. All his residents with their 100 dollar cardiology stethoscopes still rely on that sonogram to make their diagnoses for them because they lack 45 years of listening to healthy and sick hearts that this man has. This os a forum of ideas and opinions, and everyone is going to be able to post what they want, if you do not like it and have nothing constructive to say (like proof that a cardiology stethoscope positively affects the outcomes for EMS patients), than you can just ignore them.
> 
> I may only be a paramedic student here on this forum, but I have five years of healthcare experience in an internal medicine clinic where I have learned a lot about the day to day practice of real medicine. I am telling you that all of my experiences tell me that a cards scope is not needed for prehospital care or even most MDs. I do not care if you decide to use one or not. I could not care less. But if you post something here, expect it to be read and judged by your peers. Iif you do want here other opinions, than this forum is not for you.




OK, I know I am a new paramedic student on here too, and I have ten years of experience in the medical field and have worked as an assistant to four Internal med doctors.  I know opinion is opinion as far as things go.  I see it like this, why do you have to judge and be an @$$ to people asking about something pretty freaking harmless.  If you are gonna throw experience into the mix to make a point, make sure it's more than others!


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## daedalus (May 16, 2009)

Some one asked for an opinion, and I gave it to them. They than challenged me so I provided my defense with the facts the way I see them. I left my emotions at the door, which I see that you have not. Leave words like freqkin at the door because otherwise you lose all credability and provide no useful information for then op or other readers.

Xzyx, I will continue to think freeman sucks until proven other wise. The burden of that proof a on them.


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## willbeflight (May 16, 2009)

daedalus said:


> Some one asked for an opinion, and I gave it to them. They than challenged me so I provided my defense with the facts the way I see them. I left my emotions at the door, which I see that you have not. Leave words like freqkin at the door because otherwise you lose all credability and provide no useful information for then op or other readers.
> 
> Xzyx, I will continue to think freeman sucks until proven other wise. The burden of that proof a on them.




I did not see where you were challenged by the one you wrote that too.  I apoligize if I missed it.   With that being said, it just looked like you were judgmental for no reason.


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## zzyzx (May 16, 2009)

"Xzyx, I will continue to think freeman sucks until proven other wise. The burden of that proof a on them."

Ok, that's cool. If you ever want me to introduce you to faculty or if you'd like to visit the school, just PM me.


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## zzyzx (May 16, 2009)

I had a cheap scope for years until I finally lost it. I'd become a medic at that point, so I decided to get a good scope. I played around with all the scopes at the UCLA med school bookstore and settled on the Master Cardiology III. I felt like it was a huge improvement over what I had, and that I could listen to breath sounds much better. But perhaps I'm fooling myself?

I was just talking to an ER nurse who uses an electronic scope. He swore by it; said with the way it amplifies sounds, it allowed him to get BP's and breath sounds in the back of a noisy ambulance. Anybody have similar experiences with these scopes?


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## Sasha (May 16, 2009)

> Don't judge the school by some of its graduates.



How are you supposed to judge a school, then, if not by the graduates it turns out?


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## Shishkabob (May 16, 2009)

Sasha said:


> How are you supposed to judge a school, then, if not by the graduates it turns out?



He said some.


As I recall, some female on this forum went to what she considers a medic mill, but hope to stand heads and shoulders above others.


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## Sasha (May 16, 2009)

Linuss said:


> He said some.
> 
> 
> As I recall, some female on this forum went to what she considers a medic mill, but hope to stand heads and shoulders above others.



A medic mill does not necessairly make one a bad medic, just makes them have to work harder to become a good medic.

Despite getting my education at a medic mill, I can promise you I will be anything but a mill medic.


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## medic417 (Sep 20, 2009)

Started 5-8-09.


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