# Was I wrong???



## Emtpbill (Dec 24, 2011)

So this morning I come in at 6am and start my checkout of my truck for the next 24 hrs.  Anyway while checking out the truck there was a used Syringe sitting in the IV tray we keep on the bench seat, there was no needle attached but there was 1cc of fluid of the 10cc syringe.

  Anyways I bring it to the attention of the medic I was relieving, told him we found a used syringe.  

His response.......

" So ".

Not , hey sorry about, it should have gone in to the sharps box.

It bothered me so much that I wrote an incident report.  Was I wrong in doing so????

If he would have given me some type of answer " hey got slammed, sorry about that". then I would have just let it go.


So, what's your opinion?


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## Aidey (Dec 24, 2011)

Why would a used syringe without a needle go into a sharps container instead of a bio bag?


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## shfd739 (Dec 24, 2011)

My opinion? You were wrong for making a big deal out of it. It's just a syringe with no needle. Throw it away. 

Or if it makes you feel better waste the liquid onto the ground and trash TW syringe. 


Sent from my electronic overbearing life controller


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## bigbaldguy (Dec 24, 2011)

Probably not worth writing up. You brought it up to the medic and he blew you off. Would you have written it up if he had apologized? I agree he should have said "my bad I forgot to toss it" or something along those lines but this happens all the time. If you write every little thing like this up you run the risk of losing your credibility if you ever need to bring up something major.


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## Cawolf86 (Dec 24, 2011)

I'd say you were wrong. Sounds like a prefilled flush got left on the bench - happens. Should it happen in a perfect world? No. But not worth trying to get someone in trouble for.


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## fast65 (Dec 24, 2011)

I think you overreacted. Sure, it wasn't a great response by the medic, however, would it have been so hard to just waste the fluid and toss it in a bio bag? Honestly, writing an incident report for such a minor incident seems petty.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Veneficus (Dec 24, 2011)

the joys of being new...


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## JPINFV (Dec 24, 2011)

Under the letter of the rules, you're probably right. However:

1. It's not going to win you friends or influence anyone. 

2. When it comes to something like this, my time and cortisol levels aren't worth the effort needed to even track the other provider and ask over a syringe of saline without a needle. I'd just chuck it and be done with it not out of some misplaced loyalty to the proletariat, but simply because it isn't worth -my- effort and time over this.


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## Veneficus (Dec 24, 2011)

*wooden ships and iron men*

Back when I worked on a truck, in every agency I ever worked, we had a "gentleman's agreement."

If there was a late call and the off going shift was passed turnover, the oncoming shift would clean the rig.

Additionally if there was an arrest or other call that ended with the squad trashed a few minutes before shift change, the oncoming crew put the rig back in service so the offgoing crew could finish on time or as close as possible.

Doing a little bit of work to help your coworkers pays big dividends in your career.


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## mycrofft (Dec 24, 2011)

*"So?"*

"So what would you like done with it?".


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## Shishkabob (Dec 24, 2011)

It's a syringe, not a needle.  Not a big deal.  Not even a small deal.  Throw is in the trash and move on.


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## 18G (Dec 24, 2011)

You were wrong with writing an incident report. 

It was simply a syringe with water in it. So what's the major deal? No, it shouldn't have been left where you found it but as the other Medic said, so what. I'm sure he didn't intentionally leave it there. 

I can guarantee at some point you will do the same exact thing or something similar and the person coming in behind you will make sure your made aware of it. And now, since you wrote someone else up, they will do the same thing to you even when normally they wouldn't. No one is perfect and we all forget things. THAT IS WHY WE DO UNIT CHECKS. BECAUSE WE'RE NOT PERFECT. Over time, if I wrote other Medics up every time the LifePak was left in disarray, stretcher not made, etc, etc, I would have written 5,000 incident reports. It's much simpler, quicker, and less stressful just to fix it and move on. 

Just a bit of advice, do not ever write up your co-workers unless it is a very serious infraction. It's not your job to police or enforce rules with your co-workers. Let them be responsible for their actions and stay out of the middle of it. 

Just my .02.


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## DrParasite (Dec 24, 2011)

Linuss said:


> It's a syringe, not a needle.  Not a big deal.  Not even a small deal.  Throw is in the trash and move on.


While normally I would agree, and I partially do, I'm also curious what the response would have been if it had been a needle or if he left the back of the truck a disaster.  would he have said "so?", or would he have said "sorry" or something like that.

A simple syringe? probably no big deal.  worth a write up for a simple thing like that?  no, I have better things to do with my time.  and unless it's a chronic issue, I wouldn't want someone writing me up for something minor as leaving a piece of garbage in the truck.


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## WTEngel (Dec 24, 2011)

Keeping in mind that I am only hearing half the story, I would not say that you were outright wrong.

When you told your co worker about the syringe, whether he feels like you are nit picking or not, the appropriate action would be to take responsibility and either apologize or rectify the problem. He did neither, and from what you say, he gave an indifferent response and didn't acknowledge that there was anything wrong with what happened. 

The only misgiving I have about what you did was that it feels like you wrote him up more out of anger/irritation that he brushed you off, rather than for the purposes of making your co worker better. Not to get all touchy feely here or anything, but when we begin to use the chain of discipline as a system to take our negative feelings out on co workers, nothing irritates a manager/supervisor more.

The last word I will say about writing co workers up is that generally if you plan on going that route, it is good form to tell them you intend to do so. They may change their attitude, or open communication back up in order to resolve the issue before it moves up the chain. The best resolution is to take care of these matters at the peer to peer level, and not get management involved in small day to day operational matters that should not require their intervention.

The bottom line is we are all accountable. While on the surface, what your co worker did is not uncommon, and happens to the best of us after a long shift (or for any number of other reasons) the fact that you gave him an opportunity to take responsibility, he did not. 

You have a reasonable expectation to come to work with a rig that is in good working order, that theoretically you should be able to take on a call the minute you are on duty. If the shift prior was not able to leave the rig in good working order, cleaned, stocked, and ready to roll, then they need to inform you of that. It isn't a sin to leave a rig in less than ready condition, as long as you have good hand off communication and the oncoming shift is aware of what needs to be taken care of.


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## Emtpbill (Dec 24, 2011)

Veneficus said:


> the joys of being new...



Sorry, been a medic for 14 years


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## fma08 (Dec 24, 2011)

mycrofft said:


> "So what would you like done with it?".



This.


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## Emtpbill (Dec 24, 2011)

Also, there was about 4ccs of a of fluid, which looks like he hooked up an extension port and pulled back on the syringe and then flushed the port.  The fluid on the syringe looked like he had drawn back initially on then flushed causing blood to be mixed the the NSS.
   I basically was looking for him to just acknowledge my concern. I wasnt looking for him to him  to apologize profusely, but just recognize that he wouldn't like it I left something like that. 
    I guess you had to be there to appreciate my point of view and listen and see his reaction.
   This is the first time in 14 years I have ever wrote someone. If I had done that I would have just said, my fault , I didn't mean to have left that that way.


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## EMSrush (Dec 25, 2011)

mycrofft said:


> "So what would you like done with it?".



Fair play, and I think that the OP had a legitimate concern. There is no telling what fluid was in the syringe.... for all the OP knew, it could have been a couple of leftover mcg's of Fentanyl that wasn't wasted properly. The OP may not have necessarily been looking for an apology as much as some professional courtesy. Depending on what was in the syringe, the medic taking off could have had a heck of a headache to deal with...

At my agency, I always try to touch base with the oncoming medic taking my rig to let them know of any deficiencies or concerns with the gear.


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## Melclin (Dec 26, 2011)

I must be missing something here. 

I don't see anything at all wrong with leaving a flush around. I wouldn't do it on purpose, mostly because I like to "reset" things for my own benefit, but stuff like this happens all the time to everyone. Honestly, in your 14 years have you never combined 'grumpy' with 'mistake'? I call that "night shift".

To me this is like leaving the toilet seat up. I never do it on _purpose_ per se but anyone who wants to be enough of a wanker to go to the effort of taking issue with the fact that I might have done it * once* is instantly added to my :censored::censored::censored::censored: list. 

But as I say, I must be missing something. What is the issue with leaving it out. Its a flush with ? a bit of blood on it. What did it cost you to chuck it?

If nothing else its a dumb move in terms of work place relations. Being "that guy" doesn't help anyone, least of all you.


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## ffemt8978 (Dec 26, 2011)

EMSrush said:


> Fair play, and I think that the OP had a legitimate concern. *There is no telling what fluid was in the syringe.... for all the OP knew, it could have been a couple of leftover mcg's of Fentanyl that wasn't wasted properly.* The OP may not have necessarily been looking for an apology as much as some professional courtesy. *Depending on what was in the syringe, the medic taking off could have had a heck of a headache to deal with...*
> 
> At my agency, I always try to touch base with the oncoming medic taking my rig to let them know of any deficiencies or concerns with the gear.



This.


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## WuLabsWuTecH (Dec 27, 2011)

Every once in awhile things don't get put back.  Would your reaction have been the same if it were a tourniquet or BP cuff left out?  I think that there was a potential for something bad to be in the syringe, but based on his answer (I'm assuming he was still groggy) he knew it was saline and thought it was no big deal.  He probably didn't see that from your point of view it could have been an issue.

I would have let it go unless it was part of a pattern of behaviour.


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## Melclin (Dec 27, 2011)

EMSrush said:


> Fair play, and I think that the OP had a legitimate concern. There is no telling what fluid was in the syringe.... for all the OP knew, it could have been a couple of leftover mcg's of Fentanyl that wasn't wasted properly. The OP may not have necessarily been looking for an apology as much as some professional courtesy. Depending on what was in the syringe, the medic taking off could have had a heck of a headache to deal with...
> 
> At my agency, I always try to touch base with the oncoming medic taking my rig to let them know of any deficiencies or concerns with the gear.



Since when are these drugs not labelled?


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## JPINFV (Dec 27, 2011)

Melclin said:


> Since when are these drugs not labelled?




If the drugs are being drawn from vials, the vial is labeled, but the syringe isn't going to be labeled when it's being used for an entire 10 seconds.


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## mycrofft (Dec 27, 2011)

*Leaving a flush around is sloppy, disrespectful, or hurried.*

A little like leaving a gun lying around. Is it loaded? Was it supposed to be there? Is my time so much less important than your that I have to pick up your stuff so you can go on and do better things?
"The outcome was benign, the mechanism, malign".
(me)


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## WuLabsWuTecH (Dec 27, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> If the drugs are being drawn from vials, the vial is labeled, but the syringe isn't going to be labeled when it's being used for an entire 10 seconds.



Most EMS "street medicine" types don't label their meds for a short use.  In the hospital we are required to regardless of how short the use is for instances like this.



mycrofft said:


> A little like leaving a gun lying around. Is it loaded? Was it supposed to be there? Is my time so much less important than your that I have to pick up your stuff so you can go on and do better things?
> "The outcome was benign, the mechanism, malign".
> (me)



I doubt it was someone being lazy.  More likely, it was just forgotten about or dropped and missed.  We have a system here of calling out sharps i.e.:

"Sharps out"
"2nd Sharp out'
"2nd sharp away"
"Sharp away, all sharps clear"

when we are in the back of the medic, and if we know the needles are clear, then I wouldn't put it past someone to miss a syringe of NS during a clean of the truck.

Sure an apology would have been nice, but the fact that you would react so differently makes me think you took it personally...


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## Melclin (Dec 28, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> If the drugs are being drawn from vials, the vial is labeled, but the syringe isn't going to be labeled when it's being used for an entire 10 seconds.



Seriously? That is absurd. Everything should be labelled, all the time. Surely its just part of the drawing up process, regardless of how long its used for. We tend to stick the amps to the syringe which is less than ideal, but at least its a kind of label. 

Well then if this is common place then its probably more reasonable to be annoyed about a syringe being left around.


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## JPINFV (Dec 28, 2011)

Melclin said:


> Seriously? That is absurd. Everything should be labelled, all the time. Surely its just part of the drawing up process, regardless of how long its used for. We tend to stick the amps to the syringe which is less than ideal, but at least its a kind of label.
> 
> Well then if this is common place then its probably more reasonable to be annoyed about a syringe being left around.



Wouldn't the absurd thing be to draw medication and not use it immediately?


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## usalsfyre (Dec 28, 2011)

Melclin said:


> Seriously? That is absurd. Everything should be labelled, all the time. Surely its just part of the drawing up process, regardless of how long its used for. We tend to stick the amps to the syringe which is less than ideal, but at least its a kind of label.
> 
> Well then if this is common place then its probably more reasonable to be annoyed about a syringe being left around.



While in theory I agree, I can't say that when I put 10 of morphine in a syringe that then gets used, twisted back on a capped blunt and then placed in my shirt pocket I ever really label it. It's not like it's easy to mistake where it is. The empty vial also goes in the same pocket for documentation purposes.


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## Melclin (Dec 28, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> Wouldn't the absurd thing be to draw medication and not use it immediately?



The pt can't wait the <5 seconds its takes to label the syringe?



usalsfyre said:


> While in theory I agree, I can't say that when I put 10 of morphine in a syringe that then gets used, twisted back on a capped blunt and then placed in my shirt pocket I ever really label it. It's not like it's easy to mistake where it is. The empty vial also goes in the same pocket for documentation purposes.



Well then I suppose in a sense it is labelled isn't it. I worked with a intensive care bloke a bit who used to slap some tape with an A on it when he drew 100mcg/10ml push dose adrenaline out of the 1:10,000. It doesn't have to be some super official infusion label, just some kind of reasonable attempt at noting that syringe as drug filled. If that happens to be your right top pocket then its not ideal but maybe that has to do at the time. Its not like we don't take shortcuts here and there either, its just that the culture here is not to take a shortcut in that particular manner. 

Maybe it happens here, but I've not come across it. Even IM injections, which are in the sharps container 20 seconds after being drawn up, are labelled. So its not so much a criticism as an expression shock at a certain cultural difference that I didn't expect. 

Having said that, I don't know why you wouldn't just take a second to mark the syringe though. Who is that sick they can't wait a couple of seconds for that drug, or couldn't spare 5 seconds after the first dose for you to label it.


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## huey28 (Dec 28, 2011)

this is why i check my truck with gloves on, i think a blood sugar strip with blood on it is worse then this, and i can tell you when i get into work in about an hour and check my truck i will find at least 2-3 used blood sugar strips a full trash can and a over flowing bio hazard box, i never wrote anyone up, id rather speak to them, tell them my concern and if they say "so" just proves to me that they are scum. and when they need a swap i will crush them with a bigggg nope. 


word travels fast in ems, its a small world I dont know how it is where you guys live but in mass if you write someone up for random things it will get out and you will never been the same.

sorry for my random post, i just woke up and my coffee isnt done yet. 

now i say good day!


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## abckidsmom (Dec 28, 2011)

usalsfyre said:


> While in theory I agree, I can't say that when I put 10 of morphine in a syringe that then gets used, twisted back on a capped blunt and then placed in my shirt pocket I ever really label it. It's not like it's easy to mistake where it is. The empty vial also goes in the same pocket for documentation purposes.



I tape the vial to it, because later I'm going to want to waste that with someone who wasn't present in the back of the ambulance, and I want them to be as comfortable as possible with the waste.


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## usalsfyre (Dec 28, 2011)

Melclin said:


> Having said that, I don't know why you wouldn't just take a second to mark the syringe though.


Honestly? Bad habit I've picked up and just haven't thought to shake as it's never caused me grief. Not a good answer I know, but truthful.


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## Melclin (Dec 28, 2011)

usalsfyre said:


> Honestly? Bad habit I've picked up and just haven't thought to shake as it's never caused me grief. Not a good answer I know, but truthful.



Well I like sinning too much to get into the stone throwing game


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## boingo (Dec 28, 2011)

I leave the vial attached to the needle (blunt tip).  No question of what is in the syringe, once used, it goes in the sharps box.  If I found a syringe w/o needle in the truck I would just toss it, whining to management isn't the best option.


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## Fish (Dec 28, 2011)

Don't write that up, but don't let him say "so" either. It is just a mistake, but that was a lame response on his part.


Go take some tennis lessons, work on that backhand...... Next time he says "so" instead of a my bad, or oops sorry bout that. Give him one of those backhands you have been working on!


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## the_negro_puppy (Dec 28, 2011)

By making an official complaint over a trivial issue that posed little to no safety risk to y ourself or other, you have effectively committed social suicide at your station. The fact that you claim to have been a medic for 15 years, yet have to ask on an online forum about this issue (with everyone disagreeing with you) shows that you either have poor social skills, no common sense or both.


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## triemal04 (Dec 28, 2011)

the_negro_puppy said:


> By making an official complaint over a trivial issue that posed little to no safety risk to y ourself or other, you have effectively committed social suicide at your station. *The fact that you claim to have been a medic for 15 years, yet have to ask on an online forum about this issue (with everyone disagreeing with you) shows that you either have poor social skills, no common sense or both*.


Or something else, that was in fact referenced in another thread.

But you would be surprised...I hope...at how often those traits are common in the US among prehospital providers.


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## MedicPatriot (Jan 2, 2012)

If it was just a needless syringes I wouldn't have made a big deal about it, but thats me.


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