# EMS Self Defense Tools/Tactics



## RanchoEMT (Jan 5, 2011)

What tools/equipment do you guys use for self-defense when working? Clearly we are EMT's/Medics working for an Ambulance, Fire, etc. and not PD, and we are to steer clear of dangerous situations/scenes until its safe to enter. Obviously the #1 tool is a Good Head on Your Shoulders and the #1 Tactic would be to get the hell out of a situation you think is dangerous and call PD, BUT! What tools/tactics have you found to be useful for your own self-defense short of a firearm or knife when the unexpected happens and PD is not immediately available?

e.g. I carry a Kubaton on my key chain and am looking to get a small holsterable LED flashlight for both blinding and striking. Ofcourse Only in Self-Defense life/death situation.


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## Smash (Jan 5, 2011)

My 5.11 ATAC boots.  They are almost as good as my running shoes for running away in.


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## HotelCo (Jan 5, 2011)

RanchoEMT said:


> What tools/tactics have you found to be useful for your own self-defense short of a firearm or knife when the unexpected happens and PD is not immediately available?



The only reason I wouldn't carry my firearm concealed at work, is  because it's illegal to carry a concealed firearm into a hospital in Michigan (open carry is fine [with CPL], but obviously not practical in EMS). Also, I do carry a knife on me.



			
				RanchoEMT said:
			
		

> e.g. I carry a Kubaton on my key chain and am looking to get a small holsterable LED flashlight for both blinding and striking. Ofcourse Only in Self-Defense life/death situation.



If it's truly a life or death situation, your objective is to stop the threat. Why would you limit yourself to a small flashlight?


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## socalmedic (Jan 5, 2011)

kershaw dive/boot knife and a solid head on my sholders to know when to back out h34r:


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## usalsfyre (Jan 5, 2011)

Rocuronium


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## Melclin (Jan 5, 2011)

I'd at least like the option of a stab vest. Body armour is illegal here for the singular purpose that it be easier for the police to kill you should the need arise. Stupid Ned Kelly. *conspiracyconspiracyconspiracy* 

Even on placements, I've already been in situations where I'd really rather have had the option. Most of the time I'd probably ditch it, but I don't like being told I _can't_ have it. 



I got punched in the nose by a 16 year old girl a few weeks back. First time I've been "assaulted" in EMS. I thought it was hysterical 

.....inb4 cool story bro.


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## RanchoEMT (Jan 5, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> If it's truly a life or death situation, your objective is to stop the threat. Why would you limit yourself to a small flashlight?



I truly believe if something that your going to be doing or including in your regular daily routine isn't practical or is too cumbersome you will work around it, not include it, and generally fail to use it during its time of application.  i.e. Have the Maglite in hand and ready at all times. I could include the Maglite in the rig, but is it going to be realistic to have to run back to the rig in order to use it? no. 
With something at least holsterable(worn on belt) that i can grab and have ready in a second or two i can at least (in my mind) have something that  1.)is easily there when i need it 2.)serves more than one purpose applicable to my job(lighting/blinding,striking), 3.) and most important something that you are able to FORGET ABOUT and still use. Again my objective being to NOT have to remember to bring it, but instead for it just to RELIABLY be there.  
e.g.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFhxOGOac8k&feature=related


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## MrBrown (Jan 5, 2011)

There is a union push on for stab vests here its not likely to go anywhere but if a light weight stab resistant vest were avaliable Brown would consider having it in the vehicle for use.


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## RanchoEMT (Jan 5, 2011)

4.) Oh and something that looks BAD-***!


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## Melclin (Jan 5, 2011)

RanchoEMT said:


> 4.) Oh and something that looks BAD-***!



A Mk 19 grenade launcher on top of the sprinter would be pretty sweet.


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## Tommerag (Jan 5, 2011)

Melclin said:


> A Mk 19 grenade launcher on top of the sprinter would be pretty sweet.



Agreed until it start rocking the crap out of the rig haha. Be sure to leave yourself some room.


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## samiam (Jan 5, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> The only reason I wouldn't carry my firearm concealed at work, is  because it's illegal to carry a concealed firearm into a hospital in Michigan (open carry is fine [with CPL], but obviously not practical in EMS). Also, I do carry a knife on me.
> 
> 
> 
> If it's truly a life or death situation, your objective is to stop the threat. Why would you limit yourself to a small flashlight?



It is actually illegal to open carry into a hospital in Michigan. Hospitals are considered weapons free zones and only a person with a CPL with a WFZ exception ie. a retired police officer can carry into a hospital in Michigan. Also it is protocol of most hospitals especially in Detroit to hold all weapons of anyone including police officers unless they are preforming an active investigation and are escorted by a security officer or other staff member


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## Ridryder911 (Jan 5, 2011)

I suggest you check out DT4EMS website. He is a frequent visitor here and has some great knowledge and courses on what to do .." if such an event occurs".. 

R/r 911


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## HotelCo (Jan 5, 2011)

samiam said:


> It is actually illegal to open carry into a hospital in Michigan. Hospitals are considered weapons free zones and only a person with a CPL with a WFZ exception ie. a retired police officer can carry into a hospital in Michigan. Also it is protocol of most hospitals especially in Detroit to hold all weapons of anyone including police officers unless they are preforming an active investigation and are escorted by a security officer or other staff member



Open carry is legal in michigan, and PFZs (Pistol Free Zone) are off limits to persons without a CPL. There are seperate (albeit similar) restrictions where CPL holders can't carry concealed. Those with CPLs may open carry into PFZs (See MSP Legal Update #86 as a starting point). 

If you still have questions after reading the MSP update, feel free to either respond in this thread, or pm me. I'll be happy to answer any questions you might have. 




> An individual with a valid CPL may carry a non- concealed firearm in [a pistol free zone (PFZ)]



MSP Legal update #86: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf


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## HotelCo (Jan 5, 2011)

RanchoEMT said:


> I truly believe if something that your going to be doing or including in your regular daily routine isn't practical or is too cumbersome you will work around it, not include it, and generally fail to use it during its time of application.  i.e. Have the Maglite in hand and ready at all times. I could include the Maglite in the rig, but is it going to be realistic to have to run back to the rig in order to use it? no.
> With something at least holsterable(worn on belt) that i can grab and have ready in a second or two i can at least (in my mind) have something that  1.)is easily there when i need it 2.)serves more than one purpose applicable to my job(lighting/blinding,striking), 3.) and most important something that you are able to FORGET ABOUT and still use. Again my objective being to NOT have to remember to bring it, but instead for it just to RELIABLY be there.
> e.g.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFhxOGOac8k&feature=related



How is a knife too cumbersome to carry with you?

What I carry:


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## RanchoEMT (Jan 6, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> How is a knife too cumbersome to carry with you?



Didn't say it was, i carry one. I asked in the OP if there was anything aside from a gun or knife b/c i know everybody is going to bring up the obvious...


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## RanchoEMT (Jan 6, 2011)

Ridryder911, you complete me...
http://www.dt4ems.com/


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## Akulahawk (Jan 6, 2011)

I used to carry a quality folding knife, a small metal-body flash light, my trauma shears, steel-toed boots, an assortment of pens... and the ability to get _really_ aggressive if I needed to. Oh yeah, and dog in the road. 

Of course, if I had to do any that defensively... something had gone _really _wrong...

Fortunately, over 7 years of working the streets, I've only had a couple patients that I needed to convince them that I was the boss... and go hands-on for their safety. I have no doubt that I was lucky that I hadn't been assaulted in all that time, though I figure that at some point, I would have been.


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## JJR512 (Jan 7, 2011)

A metal oxygen cylinder.


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## bonedog (Jan 8, 2011)

usalsfyre said:


> Rocuronium



Me like, just don't get the nickname DEXTER....


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## LuvGlock (Jan 8, 2011)

JJR512 said:


> A metal oxygen cylinder.



+1

Always aware of where it is should a psych pt feel the need to jump off the cot.  Of course, that's why I *watch* my psych pts so I don't have to go for the cylinder.


Regarding carry in hospitals, remember the (in)famous saying:

"Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6".

Though I don't personally carry on the job anymore, if I felt the threat was constantly around (like if I worked in a rough neighborhood, etc.), I would carry and be willing to lose my job over it.  Nothing in life is more valuable than life.


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## mc400 (Jan 8, 2011)

I am pretty smart, pretty damn strong and I can hit very hard. Other then that whatever is around. Always leave yourself and out and when it happens you have to be ready, violence of action is what wins usually in a combat situation. The good ole US Army taught me that very well...


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## newt3947 (Jan 8, 2011)

*DT4EMS is the class you want for self defense training.*

If you are interested in learning some really good self defense techniques that were designed for ems folks, then check out DT4EMS.  They have a website that is full of info.  I took the 2 day class several years ago and it was excellent.  DT4EMS teaches you how to escape from an attacker.  They start with a simple parry to defect a punch all to way to getting out of a ground pounding.  The class also teaches scene awareness and things to look out for, legal issues about being attacked and what you need to do to protect yourself in court, and documentation.  It's a great class.


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## rwik123 (Jan 8, 2011)

newt3947 said:


> If you are interested in learning some really good self defense techniques that were designed for ems folks, then check out DT4EMS.  They have a website that is full of info.  I took the 2 day class several years ago and it was excellent.  DT4EMS teaches you how to escape from an attacker.  They start with a simple parry to defect a punch all to way to getting out of a ground pounding.  The class also teaches scene awareness and things to look out for, legal issues about being attacked and what you need to do to protect yourself in court, and documentation.  It's a great class.



This was already mentioned earlier in the thread.


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## MediMike (Jan 11, 2011)

An IV bag upside the head works pretty well...but as far as I'm concerned I'm only doing enough to break contact with the assaulter and beat feet away. And I have absolutely NO qualms about opening the back door of the rig and letting the patient get the hell out B)


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## JJR512 (Jan 11, 2011)

MediMike said:


> An IV bag upside the head works pretty well...but as far as I'm concerned I'm only doing enough to break contact with the assaulter and beat feet away. And I have absolutely NO qualms about opening the back door of the rig and letting the patient get the hell out B)



Just remember your cover story: "The patient tried to attack me, I sidestepped and the patient tripped, and as he fell, he reached out and must have grabbed the door release, thereby opening the door and allowing him to spill out the back."


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## AnthonyM83 (Jan 12, 2011)

I endorse DT4EMS courses. More agencies and schools should cover this during their training.

Kip also has some segments on using trauma shears as defense tools.

Remember most anything can be used as a weapon (by you and by patients).
Clipboard. Pen. Trauma bag/box. Pager. O2 Cylinder. Extra O2 regulator. Backboard. Flashlight. Suction canister. Yankauer tip. Radio. Steel toe boot. Shears. BSI glasses. Penlight.


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