# Value of Continuing Education?



## MMiz (Oct 8, 2020)

Having just completed my renewal credits online (primarily at Careercert, but also at HSI), I can't help but question the value of EMS CEU.

The information wasn't presented in an engaging way and assessments seemed pointless.  The weren't testing for content mastery, but instead inane details.  

Does it really matter if I know the full correct name of the Ryan White HIV/AIDS Treatment Extension Act of 2009?  Four close variations, with one being the correct answer, were presented during the assessment related to hygiene and vaccinations.

For years I flew home to participate in a one-day practical credit CEU session that involved the instructor telling stories as we played around with different mannequins and trainers.

Reflecting on my experiences, I can't remember the last time I had a continuing education session where I walked away feeling as though it was worth the time.

Is this the standard in EMS?


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## NPO (Oct 8, 2020)

If you pay for lackluster CEUs you'll get a lackluster experience. There are lots of valuable CE opportunities available, even in person.


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 8, 2020)

It all depends on the CEUs that you are obtaining. If all you ever do is CEUs that recover information you have already learned, then no they will not help or be very beneficial. If you are branching out into new subjects and new topics then you can find some amazing hours. 

If you are only doing a “renewal course” to get your hours, then you will likely to be bored.


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## MMiz (Oct 8, 2020)

Valid points.  What would educational opportunities would you suggest?


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## NPO (Oct 8, 2020)

MMiz said:


> Valid points. What would educational opportunities would you suggest?


Most hospitals have CE lunches, or other monthly opportunity for their staff that EMS is often able to go to. You can also look for courses for a level certification above yours (ie paramedic or critical care)


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 8, 2020)

NPO said:


> Most hospitals have CE lunches, or other monthly opportunity for their staff that EMS is often able to go to. You can also look for courses for a level certification above yours (ie paramedic or critical care)


This. I find the majority of the pure BLS/ALS CEs to be pretty redundant with information I already know. I will still take the occasional class that sounds interesting however most of my CEs are now critical care or nursing related.


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## CCCSD (Oct 8, 2020)

If I can get into a class that’s way above my paygrade and get usable CEs, I’m in it. I’ve learned quite a bit that way and made great contacts.


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## NPO (Oct 8, 2020)

CCCSD said:


> If I can get into a class that’s way above my paygrade and get usable CEs, I’m in it. I’ve learned quite a bit that way and made great contacts.


I have taken courses that are intended for physicians and give AMA credits, but not EMS CME credits. My state will allow them on a case by case basis and I've had them approved for my state recert with no trouble.


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## Tigger (Oct 8, 2020)

Our local paramedic refresher is awesome. Our system has a lot of medical directors and they come and teach the majority of it. It's great face time with the docs and they very good about providing relevant feedback to EMS. 

I find our hospital provided education to be somewhat lacking, but they seem to have noticed and have broken away from a one size fits every agency model and have improved how they differently target say an ALS transport agency from a BLS first response department. 

@MMiz when I worked in Massachusetts but spent most of the year elsewhere I did all my hours through a similar site and it was indeed garbage. Just feels like folks trying to make a quick buck.


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## NPO (Oct 8, 2020)

Tigger said:


> .
> 
> @MMiz when I worked in Massachusetts but spent most of the year elsewhere I did all my hours through a similar site and it was indeed garbage. Just feels like folks trying to make a quick buck.



Can you blame them? Most people view CEs as a burden and a chore rather than an opportunity.


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## Tigger (Oct 9, 2020)

NPO said:


> Can you blame them? Most people view CEs as a burden and a chore rather than an opportunity.


Not even a little.


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## Akulahawk (Oct 9, 2020)

Since I'm not all that active in the field, but very active as an EDRN, I basically do the EMS CE hours out of convenience. I don't usually find those CE hours all that engaging either, but then again I'm looking for the hours only and that's what I pretty much pay for. No, it's not ideal, but for what I need, that's OK. Unfortunately for me, the EMS CE and the RN CE don't normally cross over, even though both involve patient care, so I can't use the hours from one to help supplement the other. 

I do look forward to doing in-person CE on some subjects because I do learn a LOT from the instructors and other participants when it's geared for the experienced care provider. Like Tigger, I don't blame people for doing the same thing I do because it can be a chore. However, it would be wise to seek out educational opportunities and I do  it when I can!


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## DrParasite (Oct 9, 2020)

My current CE suuuuuucks.  like large monkey ball sucks.  I attribute this to several factors:
1) the county EMS training supervisor designs a horrible PowerPoint, and then distributes it to all the CE instructors.  Per his directive, they are not permitted to remove anything, but they can add stuff as needed.  

2) several of the CE instructors don't prepare beforehand.  the first time they see the PPT is in front of the class.

3) many of the CE instructors are no more educated than those they are educating.  So they are just reading us the information on the slide.

Since our current primary CE instructor is so bad, most of the time I work on my computer, or read comics on my iPad, because I won't be learning anything anyway. And it makes me less frustrated when she starts saying wrong stuff or fluffing her own ego with irrelevant war stories to make herself sound impressive. Our new secondary one is a lot better because he's a PM, and because he knows more than just what is on the slides.

That all being said, in this county, there was one CE instructor that I enjoyed going to. He was a FF/PM in Cary (and recently promoted to captain), and he ALWAYS went above and beyond the basics. Not only did I always learn something new, but he was legitimately passionate about teaching and raising standards. Truth be told, the man should be in either PA school or Medical school, but he can't afford a 3 year break from working and supporting his family.

I loved my CE when I was in  NJ, because I was able to choose the classes I wanted to take.  They were the ones that interested me, and were often alphabet classes (ABLS, AMLS, PTHLS, etc).  More often than not, these classes were taught by nurses or paramedics, so there was a high probability that they would teach me something I didn't know, vs simply telling me stuff I already learned in EMT class, or reading off the powerpoints.


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## PA or bust (Oct 16, 2020)

MMiz said:


> Having just completed my renewal credits online (primarily at Careercert, but also at HSI), I can't help but question the value of EMS CEU.
> 
> The information wasn't presented in an engaging way and assessments seemed pointless.  The weren't testing for content mastery, but instead inane details.
> 
> ...


Does anyone use FreeCE for the CE credits and CE broker? I have a pharmacy technician lic and use those to renew it, was wondering if it’s the same. Brand new basic!!!!!


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## MMiz (Oct 16, 2020)

PA or bust said:


> Does anyone use FreeCE for the CE credits and CE broker? I have a pharmacy technician lic and use those to renew it, was wondering if it’s the same. Brand new basic!!!!!



Without getting too far off topic, I'd look at the free options at:

https://www.powerpak.com/
https://www.pharmacytimes.com/
https://www.freece.com/ (as you mentioned)
I always time it so I can use a one year unlimited plan to earn credits for two renewal cycles.


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## Aprz (Oct 23, 2020)

I've taken two CE classes that I liked. They still could've used some improvement, but they were still good. I think I liked them just because we practiced on cadavers and/or pig tracheas (I think that's what it was?). Both of the CEs were airway. I personally don't like how frequently the CEs available to me are things I frequently see, do, and know. It's always stuff like cardiac stuff, airway (although I liked those two airway CEs I told you, but only because we didn't practice on mannequins), IO (I've taken two IO CE classes this year) assessments in general (kind of like AMLS or "critical care" class I once took). I wish that CEs were on infrequent skills or that those things were included in classes like airway (doing pleural decompression, which I did get to try on the cadaver actually), pacing (usually verbalized in the class, recognizing failure is not a thing we discuss), OB/gynecology, and things like that. I also wish that it was less relaxing and taking basic tests, and it was more trying to push our ourselves do more. In my area, why is it acceptable for paramedics to struggle with basic math? Why not have a med math CE class? I think most paramedics in my area are so bad at med math that things like amiodarone drips are hard for them. I frequently hear, especially with dopamine drips, "wide open and titrate to effect". The math is easy! I think it should be practiced where you can do the math under stressful situation. It honestly doesn't take that long to do and I feel like it should be one of those things we can do during transport (although I fully support checklists, I am OK with like a cheat sheet with the Dopamine or whatever med you have), but it's like dumb things like that that we don't know, can't do, and don't even go over in continue educations. It's always the same thing "Kids should look pink and crying is good, blood goes round and round, air goes in and out", all those dumb aphorisms over and over.


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## mgr22 (Oct 23, 2020)

Aprz, I share your concern about math, and would add communication as an important generic skill. After teaching the basics of both, I think it would be difficult to accomplish much in an hour or two of CME.

I've found it hard to attract interest in longer, adult-level courses, possibly because the content tends to be much less exciting than anything with the word "tactical" in the title. Also, most EMS instructors I know (including me) aren't degreed educators. Working as a paramedic prepares one for many things, but not how to teach, say, reading to someone whose primary schooling didn't get the job done. I think significant weaknesses in the three R's are best addressed by professional tutors.

I also agree that math shortcuts have limitations. I don't think "midnight rules" were meant as substitutes for basic skills.


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## PA or bust (Oct 27, 2020)

MMiz said:


> Without getting too far off topic, I'd look at the free options at:
> 
> https://www.powerpak.com/
> https://www.pharmacytimes.com/
> ...


Yes, I use those for my pharmacy. I’m struggling to find something for my EMT. There’s tons of information out there, but I’m not sure is there a website people use most frequently?
I’m hesitant too because of the prices I’m seeing. Usually I pay roughly $90/year for my freece.com registration, but I’m seeing registration prices of $200 or more!
This is my first year doing this and I don’t want to get scammed, not complete all my ces, or find the Best Buy.


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## Aprz (Oct 27, 2020)

mgr22 said:


> Aprz, I share your concern about math, and would add communication as an important generic skill. After teaching the basics of both, I think it would be difficult to accomplish much in an hour or two of CME.
> 
> I've found it hard to attract interest in longer, adult-level courses, possibly because the content tends to be much less exciting than anything with the word "tactical" in the title. Also, most EMS instructors I know (including me) aren't degreed educators. Working as a paramedic prepares one for many things, but not how to teach, say, reading to someone whose primary schooling didn't get the job done. I think significant weaknesses in the three R's are best addressed by professional tutors.
> 
> I also agree that math shortcuts have limitations. I don't think "midnight rules" were meant as substitutes for basic skills.


Tactical Med Math. Just have the instructor shoot their gun above your head while you have to solve math problems?


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## AIR (Mar 10, 2021)

MMiz said:


> Having just completed my renewal credits online (primarily at Careercert, but also at HSI), I can't help but question the value of EMS CEU.
> 
> The information wasn't presented in an engaging way and assessments seemed pointless.  The weren't testing for content mastery, but instead inane details.
> 
> ...


I would say that you are not getting QUALITY CEUs. Our Continuing Education is MONTHLY and is relavant and valuable. We do not wait until the end of the licensure cycle and attend a "refresher" course... We do our refresher on a continuos basis. Training should be engaging and informative. You should walk away from training with a better understanding of a task or topic.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 10, 2021)

ibemtb said:


> I would say that you are not getting QUALITY CEUs. Our Continuing Education is MONTHLY and is relavant and valuable. We do not wait until the end of the licensure cycle and attend a "refresher" course... We do our refresher on a continuos basis. Training should be engaging and informative. You should walk away from training with a better understanding of a task or topic.


Pretty broad statement you made.  Just because it works for you does not mean it is the best for everyone


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## AIR (Mar 10, 2021)

If someone walks away from a training seeing NO VALUE in the education they just received, wouldn't you say there was a problem with the delivery of the education???


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## AIR (Mar 10, 2021)

ffemt8978 said:


> Pretty broad statement you made.  Just because it works for you does not mean it is the best for wvery9.


oh... and great way to make people feel welcome in the group. Thumbs up to you.


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## VentMonkey (Mar 10, 2021)

ibemtb said:


> If someone walks away from a training seeing NO VALUE in the education they just received, wouldn't you say there was a problem with the delivery of the education???


I’d mostly agree. Caveat? There are a multitude of different instructor types, as well as different learner-types.

This is from a guy who’s had to find the instructor-types that best suited me. So, I speak from a firsthand point of view.

I feel like at some point it is up to the learner to find what suits them best. Now, if you’re department puts on interesting and engaging Con-ed all of the time, kudos to you and your department.

I think the above paragraph is often the exception and not the general rule. Luckily for people (such as myself) who are self-driven, there’s tons of resources available tailored to almost any type of learner that is engaging these days.


ibemtb said:


> oh... and great way to make people feel welcome in the group. Thumbs up to you.


Haha, wut? Cheers.

ETA: I’d also venture to guess that even in the strongest CE driven agencies there are people who have a hard time with it. Again, individual learner-types.

I am speaking from firsthand knowledge having a bit of a time with certain instructors delivery methods. I don’t think it was them per se, but what works for me won’t always work for the person to my left or right.


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## NomadicMedic (Mar 10, 2021)

I’ll say that I’ve worked at agencies that run the gamut. Some with amazingly engaging, focused continuing education and others with absolutely none.

I think if you find ConEd that works for you, you‘ll gravitate towards the style that suits you best. I tend to learn well and enjoy group settings where I can interact with the other participants and the leader. There’s a trauma center that does quarterly ConEd sessions that are formatted like TED talks. Really good stuff and I always take away interesting material from them. Not everybody learns that way though.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 10, 2021)

ibemtb said:


> oh... and great way to make people feel welcome in the group. Thumbs up to you.


All I did was point out that you made an overly broad statement about something and that what works for you may not work for everyone.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 10, 2021)

ibemtb said:


> If someone walks away from a training seeing NO VALUE in the education they just received, wouldn't you say there was a problem with the delivery of the education???


It could be due to a variety of causes.  Instructor style, individual learning style, the content of the CEU, course restrictions and time constraints, learning environment, etc. The delivery of the education is only a small part of it. See @NomadicMedic and @VentMonkey  posts above.

It's great that you are getting relevant and valuable CEUs from your agency, but that is not the norm every where (though it should be).


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## DrParasite (Mar 11, 2021)

ibemtb said:


> Our Continuing Education is MONTHLY and is relavant and valuable... We do our refresher on a continuos basis. Training should be engaging and informative. You should walk away from training with a better understanding of a task or topic.


Are you sure about that?

Con ed is composed of multiple parts: just-in-time training (typically in response to something), mandatory stuff (OSHA/bloodborne pathogens. as well as documenting skill competency on required skills), and building on what you know with new stuff.  I actually agree, the weekend refreshers are typically a waste of time (because they rehash what you went over), especially if you are working full time, you should be evaluated by supervisors and QA on a regular basis to verify competency, but they do satisfy certain requirements.  But they are great for bringing a new hire up to speed, and ensure everyone is on the same baseline.

I'm going to assume your providing education; just so you know, from one instructor to another, while you might like the con ed provided, the recipients of that educations might not feel the same way.  But it should be both relevant and valuable to those in attendance.


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## Emily Starton (Mar 16, 2021)

Continuing education is required for workers to stay current with the latest developments, skills, and new technologies required for their fields. Certain professions also require continuing education to comply with laws, remain licensed or certified, or maintain membership in an association or licensing body.


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