# Gun on scene ? / n00b student question



## MIkePrekopa (Aug 27, 2009)

So I am reading my book tonight, being the good student I am ^_^, and it talks about taking a person from a crime scene. They say to take notes and sketches about body placement (thank god for camera phones) and notes about any weapons on scene. BUT, it doesn't say what to do with the weapon(s).

So here is my scenario. You get called out to a shooting. Innocent by standard hit in cross fire we will say. When you get on scene you notice a pistol which we will assume is loaded. Patient needs to go to the hospital and your ready to roll. Police are yet to arrive. What do you do with the pistol ? 

In my logic I am torn about what to do (I have class tomorrow and will ask about it), but on one hand I think "don't touch, its part of a crime scene." But on the other hand, I can't leave a loaded pistol in the open for a kid or other criminal to find. I know each area has different SOP's so whats yours? or if your not sure, what would you do ?

sorry if this is a repost, i looked around but couldn't find anything about this. ill be sure to update with teacher's response.


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## Akulahawk (Aug 27, 2009)

In the real world, the scenario you pose is not likely to happen. I, for one, will NOT enter a scene until I know it has been secured by Law Enforcement... at least for me to be able to safely enter and function. If there's a shooting... there's going to be at least one shooter...

In the extremely unlikely event that your scenario unfolds that way and there is no Law Enforcement anywhere nearby, I would have to find a way to document the placement of the weapon as best as I can, take it into custody and make it safe, advising LE of this point. Yes, that item is part of the crime scene, however, without that scene already being secured by Law Enforcement, the weapon is a continuing hazard to the community if left behind.


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## JPINFV (Aug 27, 2009)

MIkePrekopa said:


> So here is my scenario. You get called out to a shooting. Innocent by standard hit in cross fire we will say. When you get on scene you notice a pistol which we will assume is loaded. Patient needs to go to the hospital and your ready to roll. Police are yet to arrive. What do you do with the pistol ?



More important question. Why are you on scene without police?



Akulahawk said:


> In the extremely unlikely event that your scenario unfolds that way and there is no Law Enforcement anywhere nearby, I would have to find a way to document the placement of the weapon as best as I can, take it into custody and make it safe, advising LE of this point. Yes, that item is part of the crime scene, however, without that scene already being secured by Law Enforcement, the weapon is a continuing hazard to the community if left behind.




The big assumption there is that who ever is on scene (and, from the sounds of it, you are) is familiar with fire arms enough to make a fire arm safe. I'm willing to bet that a lot of EMS providers won't know that a semi-auto may be loaded without a clip.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Aug 27, 2009)

Agree with those above.  The math is simple:

Dispatched to a shooting...  Gun on scene... LEOs not on scene... Where am I?  Oh, ya... NOT ON SCENE!  -_-

EMS and Fire does not (or should not) enter a crime scene until it is secured by LE...  secured includes securing all weapons...  There is no set of cirrcumstances for someone working Ambo or Fire in which they should be put in a situation that you describe.  If you find yourself in a situation where there are weapons present at a crime scene that is not secured by LEOs...  BACK OUT...


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## mct601 (Aug 27, 2009)

You don't enter a crime scene without LE giving you the go-ahead first. When entering a crime scene, you DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING that is not relevant to patient care. Do not disturb the scene. In your scenario, A) you wouldn't enter without it being secured by LEOs (the gun would be a part of that), B) you wouldn't touch the gun because it is evidence. want your finger prints on the weapon?

Thats my take on it, thats what we went over last week in pretty good detail. Our instructors went over the weapon related subject in pretty good depth.


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## Akulahawk (Aug 27, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> More important question. Why are you on scene without police?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 (clips are for hair and charging magazines...)
I happen to be quite familiar with firearms... and outside some specific instances, semi-autos use magazines...  I have a healthy respect for firearms... including a rule that there's ALWAYS one in the pipe... until I check that it's clear. Even if I just saw YOU check that it's clear.

However, I've already outlined _my_ response to the whole thing. I _will_ stage and wait for LE to secure the scene. I don't care if it takes 45 minutes or an hour or longer. If the scene is not safe, I'm not going to go in there. I'm not going to be the next shooting victim.


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## JPINFV (Aug 27, 2009)

Akulahawk said:


> (clips are for hair and charging magazines...)
> I happen to be quite familiar with firearms... and outside some specific instances, semi-autos use magazines...  I have a healthy respect for firearms... including a rule that there's ALWAYS one in the pipe... until I check that it's clear. Even if I just saw YOU check that it's clear.



My bad... 

...and yes. There are very few gun *accidents* since most gun incidents involves a violation of at least one of the very few rules for safe gun handling. The only time a fire arm is ever unloaded is after I checked it myself. As soon as that firearm leaves my control, it becomes loaded again.


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## MIkePrekopa (Aug 27, 2009)

I know the scenario isn't the most realistic. but it was something brought up in the text book, taking a patient from a crime scene before LEOs got there. just wondering what some people more experienced than myself thought about it. I know odds are it would be cleared by the time you got there, and that you shouldn't enter till its safe... but i just wondered considering it's in the book.


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## mct601 (Aug 27, 2009)

Akulahawk said:


> (clips are for hair and charging magazines...)
> I happen to be quite familiar with firearms... and outside some specific instances, semi-autos use magazines...  I have a healthy respect for firearms... including a rule that there's ALWAYS one in the pipe... until I check that it's clear. Even if I just saw YOU check that it's clear.
> 
> However, I've already outlined _my_ response to the whole thing. I _will_ stage and wait for LE to secure the scene. I don't care if it takes 45 minutes or an hour or longer. If the scene is not safe, I'm not going to go in there. I'm not going to be the next shooting victim.



Haha, nice catch, I didn't even notice. I love firearms, they're a hobby (when I can afford to feed them  )


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## Akulahawk (Aug 27, 2009)

mct601 said:


> Haha, nice catch, *I didn't even notice*. I love firearms, they're a hobby (when I can afford to feed them  )


Maybe you need more coffee...  Understood about the rest.

To the OP: your book probably put it in there just to cover the unlikely "what if" situation. The reality is, your safety is more important than the patient's... because you can't do anyone any good if you're dead or incapacitated...


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## TransportJockey (Aug 27, 2009)

You're more likely to run across a firearm that someone is carrying, either legally or not, when you're doing a head to toe from someting like an MVC. I've been in that position, no LE on scene (very rural area, PD were about a half mile away in either direction blocking the road). My response was just to drop the mag, lock the slide back (and grab that round that was ejected), and then put everything into a biohazard bag that I gave to PD when they met us at the hospital to get the pt's info.


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## mct601 (Aug 27, 2009)

I never even thought about coming across a firearm during an assessment... interesting.


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## TransportJockey (Aug 27, 2009)

mct601 said:


> I never even thought about coming across a firearm during an assessment... interesting.



I've done it more than once, both openly carried and concealed. The OC people usually are spotted quickly and PD keeps it for them. the CCers are the ones you most likely will find it on them before anyone else does.

That's the reason my ICE in my iTouch states that I'm carrying a firearm, so no one is suprised if they read that first.


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## Akulahawk (Aug 27, 2009)

jtpaintball70 said:


> You're more likely to run across a firearm that someone is carrying, either legally or not, when you're doing a head to toe from someting like an MVC. I've been in that position, no LE on scene (very rural area, PD were about a half mile away in either direction blocking the road). My response was just to drop the mag, lock the slide back (and grab that round that was ejected), and then put everything into a biohazard bag that I gave to PD when they met us at the hospital to get the pt's info.


This happens much more often than finding one on-scene...

It would behoove the medic to at least take a firearms familiarization course... just for this instance.


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## Luno (Aug 27, 2009)

*hmmmm....*

little too quick on the trigger...


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## Seaglass (Aug 27, 2009)

One of the instructors who participates in our drills as a patient occasionally likes to mix things up a little by bringing a red gun. He'll either pretend to be lawfully carrying or a criminal. Can't count the number of times new people have responded to finding it or having him point it at them with "but you can't do that!" Yes, he can. We encourage drill patients to do anything that a real patient might do, as long as it can be safely imitated... 

I don't think we have any specific protocols for guns. If it's a dangerous patient, we're going to stage elsewhere until the scene is secure. I've never yet been the first to find a concealed gun, though it wouldn't surprise me too much.


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## RescueYou (Aug 28, 2009)

MIkePrekopa said:


> So I am reading my book tonight, being the good student I am ^_^, and it talks about taking a person from a crime scene. They say to take notes and sketches about body placement (thank god for camera phones) and notes about any weapons on scene. BUT, it doesn't say what to do with the weapon(s).
> 
> So here is my scenario. You get called out to a shooting. Innocent by standard hit in cross fire we will say. When you get on scene you notice a pistol which we will assume is loaded. Patient needs to go to the hospital and your ready to roll. Police are yet to arrive. What do you do with the pistol ?
> 
> ...



You immediately leave the scene. First off, dispatch should make you stage and wait until the PD get there. YOU NEVER ENTER AN UNSAFE SCENE. The PD need to clear it first, no matter how injured the patient is. If they die, they die. Your safety and the safety of your crew is the most important thing to remember and it always comes first. You are of no help if you become part of the emergency.


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## knxemt1983 (Aug 29, 2009)

MIkePrekopa said:


> So I am reading my book tonight, being the good student I am ^_^, and it talks about taking a person from a crime scene. They say to take notes and sketches about body placement (thank god for camera phones) and notes about any weapons on scene. BUT, it doesn't say what to do with the weapon(s).
> 
> So here is my scenario. You get called out to a shooting. Innocent by standard hit in cross fire we will say. When you get on scene you notice a pistol which we will assume is loaded. Patient needs to go to the hospital and your ready to roll. Police are yet to arrive. What do you do with the pistol ?
> 
> ...



anybody care to comment on this thought:

what if you are dispatched for something other than a shooting, and arrive to find a shooting with weapon on scene. I ask because it has happened to me, thankfully pd arrived only a couple minutes after i called for them. we were sent for a leg pain, turned out it was leg pain, because the leg had a bullet through it with arterial bleeding. yes our dispatchers are terrible, they once sent me in for a "17 y/o female choking" I thought choking on food, really it was a 17 y/o female being choked by her stepdad and we walked into a violent domestic. (the girl ran out of the house when dad looked at us, and we got back in the truck and left to wait on a leo to arrive. dispatch has been revamped since thank goodness


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## HotelCo (Aug 29, 2009)

Akulahawk said:


> This happens much more often than finding one on-scene...
> 
> It would behoove the medic to at least take a firearms familiarization course... just for this instance.



To unload it, you just keep pulling the trigger until there are no more rounds left, right? ^_^


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## Ridryder911 (Aug 29, 2009)

RescueYou said:


> You immediately leave the scene. First off, dispatch should make you stage and wait until the PD get there. YOU NEVER ENTER AN UNSAFE SCENE. The PD need to clear it first, no matter how injured the patient is. If they die, they die. Your safety and the safety of your crew is the most important thing to remember and it always comes first. You are of no help if you become part of the emergency.



That is a nice thought, and should be enforced but in the real world things happen daily and one needs to know how to handle when they are confronted with the norm. As described one should have knowledge of how to safely handle weapons and disarm them to be handled and secured properly. 

R/r 911


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## RescueYou (Aug 29, 2009)

*True that*



Ridryder911 said:


> That is a nice thought, and should be enforced but in the real world things happen daily and one needs to know how to handle when they are confronted with the norm. As described one should have knowledge of how to safely handle weapons and disarm them to be handled and secured properly.
> 
> R/r 911



Ok. Fair enough. Being as I'm from my current city (about 26,000 people) and have no intentions of ever leaving, I never really have to consider the "what ifs" like this. I mean, we're 10mins away from a city of 91,000, but in comparison to some, that's tiny. Being as I'm a 2nd degree black belt and from a relatively small city, the big "gun" factor doesn't really come up for me. BUT, I do agree that in higher risk areas, EMS need to be trained in the martial arts or gun control or something at least a little. 

BTW, here, it IS reality for us to immediately leave an unsafe scene or not enter to start. It is enforced daily here. Although, I'll admit. I have been on a scene where I started to get a strongggg sense of fear. Maybe it was the fact that all the police were wearing bullet proof vests and I wasn't or maybe because the one I was told to follow into the building was cocking his shotgun while telling me to "stay close and be prepared to get down." You tell me ^_^ LOL


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## JeffDHMC (Sep 15, 2009)

Dude, shooters don't leave their heat on scene, it goes in the drink or the land-locked equivalent. Only guns I have ever found were being carried or in the hand of a guy with his smarts on the wall. 

Realistically, it's a question that I have never considered. 

Jeff


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## trevor1189 (Sep 16, 2009)

Violent crimes, psychiatric patients, threatening suicide = STAGING AWAY FROM THE SCENE.

Remember scene safety! I don't care if we know there is a person who has been shot and bleeding out. PD needs to tell me it's ok to come into the scene.

As for finding a weapon on a pt. or at a scene during an assessment, I do enjoy shooting and know how to operate guns, so I would most likely unload and secure the weapon (assuming it hasn't been used in a crime). If I happened to find it in the back of the ambulance enroute, I would just have our dispatcher notify the hospital security to meet us outside and secure the weapon.


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## mycrofft (Sep 16, 2009)

*OK let's make it understood that everyone is fricking Wyatt Earp.*

You all know everything there is to about guns...or firearms. Of course it's the experts who cap themselves once in a while.

Very unlikely scenario, unless say the vic was lying on top of it, then you call the cops over. 

We were taught to clear weapons from casualties before they were taken into the 2E medical site in the Guard, but as for clearing a strange weapon that someone may have tampered with...Nice way to accidentally discharge.

Oh, yeah. LE rolls up and you are standing there with a gun you just picked up in your hand....hmmmm.


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## thowle (Sep 17, 2009)

MIkePrekopa said:


> (thank god for camera phones)


I know you don't mean it the way my response makes it seem; but I'd highly re-think that logic.  Camera phone can/will get you into trouble!


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## firecoins (Sep 17, 2009)

mct601 said:


> You don't enter a crime scene without LE giving you the go-ahead first. .



After the police make the scene safe, you should be saving life first. The term "crime scene" would indicate an investigation is ongoing.  You should be out there way before that.   Preserving evidence is secondary to saving life.


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## firecoins (Sep 17, 2009)

RescueYou said:


> Being as I'm a 2nd degree black belt and from a relatively small city, the big "gun" factor doesn't really come up for me. BUT, I do agree that in higher risk areas, EMS need to be trained in the martial arts or gun control or something at least a little.


The bullet entering your body does not care if you have a 2nd degree black belt if whatever martial art.  Don't let martial arts training make you believe you are invinsible.


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## fiddlesticks (Sep 17, 2009)

um why would you take pics with your phone? thats not your job your there to treat any pts. leave that to the cops and dont touch anything you dont need to.


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## rsdemt (Oct 3, 2009)

*dealing with a gun*

I have worked in Md and Va.
In both states protocol is to "stage" for any crime scenario.
If we were to break this protocol, I am sure there would be major penalties. Every 9-1-1 center I have seen in Md and Va, are police/fire/ems combined.
They have direct communications back and forth.
One night we went to the scene of an attempted suicide. Police gave OK to respons to the scene. As me and my crew walked in there was a butcher knife right next to the patient. With the police officer standing right next to it. The officer of our unit asked the officer to get the knife. The officer never noticed the knife on the bed.
When our crew got back to the station we advised the rescue chief what had happened. He called the police department, but never heard the outcome.


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