# Trivia Question...



## DT4EMS (Apr 21, 2006)

I learned something very interesting at the conference I was just at..........

What do you think the #1 reason for lawsuits against EMS is?


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## Jon (Apr 21, 2006)

dropping patients


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## DT4EMS (Apr 21, 2006)

Awe crap..... they do that up there too? Bwahahaha!!

Nope. That's not it. I will tell you it threw me for a loop too.

Mind you this is coming from JR Henry. He is a leading expert in EMS lawsuits.


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## Jon (Apr 21, 2006)

Negligence!

but that is a catch-all term... how is the provider negligent is the big question.


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## DT4EMS (Apr 21, 2006)

Negligence would be true, but like you said pretty broad term.

Can you be more specific?


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## Jon (Apr 21, 2006)

DT4EMS said:
			
		

> Negligence would be true, but like you said pretty broad term.
> 
> Can you be more specific?


Gross Negligence 

Eww... that's gross....


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## Jon (Apr 21, 2006)

Patient Restraint?


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## Jon (Apr 21, 2006)

2nd choice is Refusals...


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## DT4EMS (Apr 21, 2006)

Believe it or not, even though the things you listed were all there, they only comprised approximately 20% of all cases.

The number one reason is crashes.


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## Wingnut (Apr 22, 2006)

Wow I'm suprised, but I guess it makes sense. My husbands grandfather and some family members were hit by an ambulance once, they ended up with 100k out of the deal. 2 passengers died on impact and his wife died 2 weeks later in the hospital. He never told me what happened to the EMS workers.


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## DT4EMS (Apr 22, 2006)

Yeah, I was surprised too. I was really expecting patient care issues to be the top of the list. Truth told, patient care issues only comprised a small number of the whole picture.

Documentation is where most people still get hung up. They may have provided the most awesome patient care, but their report didn't reflect that.


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## TTLWHKR (Apr 22, 2006)

Wingnut said:
			
		

> Wow I'm suprised, but I guess it makes sense. My husbands grandfather and some family members were hit by an ambulance once, they ended up with 100k out of the deal. 2 passengers died on impact and his wife died 2 weeks later in the hospital. He never told me what happened to the EMS workers.


 

Did he mention police or firemen?

Because we, EMS Employees, vollies, privates, etc; do not exist.


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## MMiz (Apr 22, 2006)

I just read that crashes was the #1 reason on one of my CEUs at EMS-CE.com

Makes sense :sad:


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## DT4EMS (Apr 22, 2006)

The words "Due Regard" are in most state laws that discuss emergency driving.

Obviously if you were involved in a crash, you would be hard pressed to show you were acting with "due regard".


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## Wingnut (Apr 23, 2006)

TTLWHKR said:
			
		

> Did he mention police or firemen?
> 
> Because we, EMS Employees, vollies, privates, etc; do not exist.


 
No apparently he was crossing an intersection and the ambulance was running hot but without lights and sirens. He doesn't go into much detail after the accident.


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## Jon (Apr 23, 2006)

Wingnut said:
			
		

> No apparently he was crossing an intersection and the ambulance was running hot but without lights and sirens. He doesn't go into much detail after the accident.


Ok...

how can one run "hot" without Lights OR sirens?

just curious.


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## DT4EMS (Apr 23, 2006)

MedicStudentJon said:
			
		

> Ok...
> 
> how can one run "hot" without Lights OR sirens?
> 
> just curious.




I think that is called "Speeding". 

Most agencies have removed "Code 2" (lights NO siren) from their SOP because of the way most laws read "Must have audible siren AND lights" activiated to be considered in "Emergency Mode".


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## Jon (Apr 23, 2006)

DT4EMS said:
			
		

> MedicStudentJon said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Perhaps she meant that they were transporting a patient, without lights or siren.


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## TTLWHKR (Apr 24, 2006)

MedicStudentJon said:
			
		

> Perhaps she meant that they were transporting a patient, without lights or siren.


 

No, they probably meant speeding...


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## JJR512 (Apr 25, 2006)

DT4EMS said:
			
		

> I think that is called "Speeding".
> 
> Most agencies have removed "Code 2" (lights NO siren) from their SOP because of the way most laws read "Must have audible siren AND lights" activiated to be considered in "Emergency Mode".


By Maryland law, the only requirement for an emergency vehicle to be considered operating in emergency mode is for the _siren_ to be _on_.

I think that seems a bit backwards, both based on this comment, and based on what I've seen. I've seen emergency vehicles operating with lights only, and no siren, many, many times.

The only comment my EMT instructor made on this is to remember the law, but consider the need of the patient over the law.


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## DT4EMS (Apr 25, 2006)

JJR512 said:
			
		

> By Maryland law, the only requirement for an emergency vehicle to be considered operating in emergency mode is for the _siren_ to be _on_.
> 
> I think that seems a bit backwards, both based on this comment, and based on what I've seen. I've seen emergency vehicles operating with lights only, and no siren, many, many times.
> 
> The only comment my EMT instructor made on this is to remember the law, but consider the need of the patient over the law.



I can assure you, if an ambulance was involved in an accident and ONLY had a siren on with no lights, that agency would write a fat check. I would like to see the Maryland statute that says siren only is "emergency mode".

Because that would mean a police officer only has to sound his siren and not turn on his lights to pull a person over as well.

I am not saying it isn't so, I would just love to see that. In my 16 years in the field I have never heard of such a thing.

Here is an article with the Statute #:

http://www.kahnsmith.com/articles/emerveh.htm

There are several Maryland statutes governing the privileges of drivers of emergency vehicles in route to an accident. In order to enjoy these privileges, however, the emergency vehicle must be using both audible and visual signals which meet certain requirements set forth in the statute. Emergency vehicles must be equipped with "a siren, exhaust whistle, or bell capable of giving an audible sound" and flashing lights with "sufficient intensity to be visible at 500 feet in normal sunlight." Md. Code Ann. Transp. 22-218. Drivers in route to an emergency using these audible and visual signals may pass through red or stop signals, stop signs, or yield signs provided they slow down. Drivers responding to a call or alarm using audible and visual signals may disregard traffic control devices and are permitted to exceed the maximum speed limit provided they do not endanger life or property. Md. Code Ann. Transp. 21-106. These privileges apply when responding to, but not returning from a fire alarm. Md. Code Ann. Transp. 21-106. It is important to note that despite these privileges, the driver of an emergency vehicle is still obligated to drive with due regard for the safety of all persons.


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## Wingnut (Apr 25, 2006)

MedicStudentJon said:
			
		

> Ok...
> 
> how can one run "hot" without Lights OR sirens?
> 
> just curious.


 

They were transporting a code apparently. Whoever was driving never turned on light & sirens. I don't have much by way of details & this happened in the county above me about 13 years ago. But they did write a big fat check to my grandfather-in-law afterward.


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## JJR512 (Apr 25, 2006)

DT4EMS said:
			
		

> I can assure you, if an ambulance was involved in an accident and ONLY had a siren on with no lights, that agency would write a fat check. I would like to see the Maryland statute that says siren only is "emergency mode".
> 
> Because that would mean a police officer only has to sound his siren and not turn on his lights to pull a person over as well.


 
I'm just repeating what my instructor told me. Based on the other evidence you quoted, it would _appear at this time_ that she may have been incorrect. I will question her about it.

By the way, while doing my own research, I have discovered that your own point about the police officer pulling someone over with siren only may in fact be correct: "...the privileges set forth in this section apply only while the emergency vehicle is using audible and visual signals that meet the requirements of § 22-218 of this article, except that an emergency vehicle operated as a police vehicle need not be equipped with or display the visual signals." (§ 21-106)

I have discovered some other discrepancies between what I saw printed in the code and what I've been told. For example, there is still a code listed that describes how other drivers must yield the right of way to emergency vehicles that are operating their lights and sirens; however, I have been told that this is no longer actually true.


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## kevinemt662c (Apr 25, 2006)

providing care without permission?


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## DT4EMS (Apr 25, 2006)

Hiya JJ,
Here is a part of the link in your reply. Hopefully it will help clear up any confusion. It says the lights AND siren must be on except when it was sitting still or backing.

Now you know why there are always at least three attorneys present in a court case. 


8) (i) Except as provided in subparagraphs (ii) and (iii) of this paragraph, the blue, red, or white lights or signal devices may be flashed or oscillated or otherwise used only while on route to or at the scene of an emergency, and their use does not relieve an emergency vehicle from otherwise giving an audible warning as required elsewhere in the Maryland Vehicle Law.  





 (ii) The driver of an emergency vehicle may use flashing lights within 100 feet of the entrance ramp of a fire or rescue station while parking or backing the emergency vehicle.  





 (iii) The driver of an emergency vehicle of a fire department or rescue squad shall, at the discretion of the officer in charge, flash or oscillate or otherwise use red and white lights or signal devices while stopped, standing, or parked on the roadway at the scene of an emergency.


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