# Bullet Proof Vest!



## Ghost (Feb 6, 2011)

OK, so I was browsing the web for EMT supplies just to see what kind of gear is available and I came across a few Body Armor/ Tactical Vests. 

Has anyone ever heard of wearing one? Or does anyone know if this is even allowed? I think it's pretty cool especially for bad neighborhoods, in which I live in. 

Any thoughts? And can someone ask their company if this is regulatory or possible to have on duty?


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## MrBrown (Feb 6, 2011)

The London Ambulance Service (LAS) issue stab vests to thier crews and locally our Union wants Ambulance Officers to get them. 

Brown is on the fence about it, and if you want to wear a bulletproof vest, go become a cop.


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## Ghost (Feb 6, 2011)

MrBrown said:


> The London Ambulance Service (LAS) issue stab vests to thier crews and locally our Union wants Ambulance Officers to get them.
> 
> Brown is on the fence about it, and if you want to wear a bulletproof vest, go become a cop.



Don't want to become a cop, rather save lives instead of possibly taking them. Just figured I'd ask about it...


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## HotelCo (Feb 6, 2011)

If the area you live in is bad enough... go for it. Just get one of the concealable models, if you do... and prepare for the jokes that will come from your co-workers. 

If your area is truly bad enough, a few jokes about it shouldn't bother you. 

(I don't wear one, and I work in Detroit)


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## Ghost (Feb 6, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> If the area you live in is bad enough... go for it. Just get one of the concealable models, if you do... and prepare for the jokes that will come from your co-workers.
> 
> If your area is truly bad enough, a few jokes about it shouldn't bother you.
> 
> (I don't wear one, and I work in Detroit)



What kind of jokes can one make about protecting their own life? I have a military background so it doesn't seem so out of the ordinary to me.


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## Asimurk (Feb 6, 2011)

I want dragon skin for personal use.  Just, um, in case anything happens.


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## Ghost (Feb 6, 2011)

Asimurk said:


> I want dragon skin for personal use.  Just, um, in case anything happens.



LOL!!!! I've worn Dragon armor a few times, I'd definitely pick it over all the standard armor.


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## socalmedic (Feb 6, 2011)

yes its available, I would get an under the shirt model if you are wearing it daily. my company provides the over the shirt type on the ambulance, they are bright blue and have EMS on the front and back. I have worn it twice, only on GSWs with the suspect still outstanding.


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## Ghost (Feb 6, 2011)

socalmedic said:


> yes its available, I would get an under the shirt model if you are wearing it daily. my company provides the over the shirt type on the ambulance, they are bright blue and have EMS on the front and back. I have worn it twice, only on GSWs with the suspect still outstanding.



Would you be able to post a picture of it? I'd like to see how it looks.


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## socalmedic (Feb 6, 2011)

yes its available, I would get an under the shirt model if you are wearing it daily. my company provides the over the shirt type on the ambulance, they are bright blue and have EMS on the front and back. I have worn it twice, only on GSWs with the suspect still outstanding.


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## Hockey (Feb 6, 2011)

I know several people who wear one.  Hell, probably more than 10 to be honest.

I have one I keep in my bag in the truck that I was issued at my other part time job.  I know it doesn't do me any good since I can't 'plan' on needing it.  But its there...

During my clinical rides for Medic, we happened to get diverted to a call for heart trouble which actually was a cardiac arrest.  The calltaker failed to pass on the son had a gun and was going to "take care of the ambulance people" if we didn't save his father.  We walked and and noticed the gun in his hand when he came up behind us.  Family was hollering for him to put it down and just as he was, the city PD came in 'escorted' him out of the house.  

Should of left, but we didn't for whatever reason.  Guy died, his son called back the next day making some sort of threat once he was released from jail.  Went back to jail.


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## Ghost (Feb 6, 2011)

Hockey said:


> I know several people who wear one.  Hell, probably more than 10 to be honest.
> 
> I have one I keep in my bag in the truck that I was issued at my other part time job.  I know it doesn't do me any good since I can't 'plan' on needing it.  But its there...
> 
> ...



That's crazy dude. Would you need a license to buy one? I know you just can't get one off the web without clearance. I'd wear one for sure. Any regulations or guidelines when getting one?


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## socalmedic (Feb 6, 2011)

i believe you can just walk in and buy one. i dont think there is anything special to them.


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## Ghost (Feb 6, 2011)

socalmedic said:


> i believe you can just walk in and buy one. i dont think there is anything special to them.


 
Really?! Usually the laws in NYC are a bit different but I'll definitely look into it.


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## HotelCo (Feb 6, 2011)

Ghost said:


> Really?! Usually the laws in NYC are a bit different but I'll definitely look into it.



Lol. You can't do ANYTHING in NYC without a license. I've bought one off ebay for target practice.


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## citizensoldierny (Feb 6, 2011)

Ghost,
I think good tactics/scene safety will get you a lot further than body armor, esp. at the ranges we work with our patients in. As for the bad neighborhood thing violence can happen anywhere. And you never know if your next patient might have just decided that he ain't taking no more aggravation from anyone ever again just before your arrival. If you don't recognize the warning signs of an unsafe scene through situational awareness the vest might not be all that helpful if he decides to unload on you because you asked the wrong question. I've had to wear vests for jobs and they are far from comfortable. Remember they also do not stop blunt force trauma or knives. But it's your safety if you feel more safer wearing one get one. Just remember it is far from a magical talisman.


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## LucidResq (Feb 6, 2011)

I know of a few who wear them in my 'hood.


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## emt seeking first job (Feb 6, 2011)

Ghost said:


> What kind of jokes can one make about protecting their own life? I have a military background so it doesn't seem so out of the ordinary to me.





People in public safety joke to each other about everything/anything.

This is outside of the general public's ears.

And they keep at it until they get bored or the target freaks out, whichever comes first.


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## emt seeking first job (Feb 6, 2011)

As an EMT in NYC, more of a likely danger of stabbing or puncture (glass needle). Remember if they can touch you, they can stab you.

With a firearm, most people are not proficient in them. If they are, you would never see it coming and they would go for your head.

Otherwise, you are either close enough to grab it, or far enough to run away. Its much harder to grab a knife.


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## lampnyter (Feb 6, 2011)

I know a few cities in CT that issue bullet proof vests as a REQUIRED part of uniform.


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## WolfmanHarris (Feb 6, 2011)

I can't help but comment on the "In Process of Getting EMT-B" part of your profile. You're looking to buy a ballistic vest before you've even hit the road? Consider a few things first:
- From what I've gathered here, EMT-B's are a dime a dozen and you may not find a job.
- Your first job may not be 911.
- You may find that the career does not match expectations and you don't want to stay.
- The pay will probably suck.

If you wait until you actually start working, and see how things really go in the field, you may gain some perspective on just how necessary this is. Certainly in some areas it may be a nice to have, but for how little you may make, that you may not even work emerg for awhile and you may just quit early in your career, there are better ways to spend your money. How many shifts will you have to work to make the $300+ for body armour?


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## Joedaddy1120 (Feb 6, 2011)

Its illegal to purchase or own a vest by a convicted felon. Most places in texas wont sell you one unless your a Police Officer or Security Officer.


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## Frozennoodle (Feb 6, 2011)

If I worked 911 in this area a bullet proof vest would be something I would seriously consider.  I work IFT with some 911 roll overs and we have 2 units with bullet holes in them.  We have medics in the area who have had rival gangs follow them to the ER and fire into the back of the ambulance on the ramp to kill the target, people coming back on scene to kill the victim, all kinds of crazy stuff.


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## Martyn (Feb 6, 2011)

Joedaddy1120 said:


> Its illegal to purchase or own a vest by a convicted felon. Most places in texas wont sell you one unless your a Police Officer or Security Officer.



Well thats OK, I have a state of Florida Security Officer license as well


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## Scott33 (Feb 6, 2011)

Nassau County PD AMTs wear them.


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## ffemt8978 (Feb 6, 2011)

Here is a link to a document on www.handgunlaw.us that shows if your state has a law concerning body armor

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/StateLaws.pdf


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## TransportJockey (Feb 6, 2011)

Heh if I ever need to buy body armor I'll just drive back to NM to buy it (or have it mailed to my parents place in NM)


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## citizensoldierny (Feb 6, 2011)

Joedaddy1120 said:


> Its illegal to purchase or own a vest by a convicted felon. Most places in texas wont sell you one unless your a Police Officer or Security Officer.




Sort of hard to become an EMT in most states as a convicted felon too.


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## 94H (Feb 6, 2011)

The place I work for now issues stab vests to all Medics. That being said I've worked in some less than desirable areas (in NYC) and I never wore one, I always felt safe. The cops or FD usually beat you to any scene


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## usalsfyre (Feb 6, 2011)

94H said:


> The place I work for now issues stab vests to all Medics.



I worry far more about getting stabbed than shot myself.


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## zmedic (Feb 6, 2011)

Also keep in mind that different vests stop different caliber weapons. And more protection=more weight. 

So when I was on the ambulance the vest they gave us could stop up to a 9mm, just don't get shot with a .45, a .357, or a rifle. I kept it in my bag and just put it on when going to shooting calls. It was too hot to wear all the time. 

You have to look at what the risk profile is like where you work. Some places there are a lot more stabbings, some places it is more gun violence. If it's knives stab vests make more sense. Also talk to the other people you work with, if you are the only one in your company with a vest it might be sign that you are overestimating the danger where you work.


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## ffemt8978 (Feb 6, 2011)

zmedic said:


> Also talk to the other people you work with, if you are the only one in your company with a vest it might be sign that you are overestimating the danger where you work.



Or it's more likely, given the mentality of people in fire and EMS, that they are underestimating the dangers.


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## Veneficus (Feb 6, 2011)

It might be fair to say that the only way you will know if you need body armor or not is to be shot.

Inevitably, if you weren't wearing it, you will probably wish you were. If you were and the round penetrated, you probably would have wished you wore something heavier. If you are never shot, you will probably doubt the usefulness.

It is sort of like car or fire insurance. You pay for it, but if all goes well you will never use it. 

I think it is unfortunate that some providers would ridicule other providers over their employment of personal protective equipment. There was a time not too long go when wearing gloves and goggles was seen as unneccesary and made fun of.


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## lampnyter (Feb 6, 2011)

Veneficus said:


> wearing gloves and goggles was seen as unneccesary and made fun of.



Still is in some places


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## DrParasite (Feb 6, 2011)

Elizabeth PD Ambulance Service Bureau used to mandate it as part of their uniform.  they issued it as part of their uniform, and you were required to always wear it.  now that they are under the FD, idk if they still do.

Newark doesn't, Camden doesn't, and Irvington doesn't, and those are probably the 3 worst cities in NJ (and maybe in the top 10 in the US).  Detroit doesn't.  NYC definitely doesn't.  

A friend of mine works in Newark FT, and as a sheriff's deputy part time.  He wears his whenever he is at work.  Has it ever saved his life?  idk, but I would never fault anyone fore being extra paranoid, especially because I would hate to have someone suffer a preventable injury that could have been prevented had a vest been worn.


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## mycrofft (Feb 6, 2011)

*Just today read about zookeepers wearing them*






:unsure:


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## saycarramrod (Feb 6, 2011)

*Armor*

There are a few places around here that many EMT's wear concealable armor or carry firearms because the cities they work in are dangerous and LEO's dont always respond with EMS. You can buy armor online but just remember the type of threat you are looking to defeat and that the higher the level of armor means that the vest will be heavier, bulkier and more uncomfortable. Also the price will go up. And in regard to carrying a firearm just be aware that you having a firearm on a scene means that there is at least *one* firearm in that given situation.


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## Joedaddy1120 (Feb 7, 2011)

citizensoldierny said:


> Sort of hard to become an EMT in most states as a convicted felon too.



This is true. Just stating a fact about body armor.


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## adamjh3 (Feb 7, 2011)

saycarramrod said:


> There are a few places around here that many EMT's wear concealable armor *or carry firearms* because the cities they work in are dangerous and LEO's dont always respond with EMS. You can buy armor online but just remember the type of threat you are looking to defeat and that the higher the level of armor means that the vest will be heavier, bulkier and more uncomfortable. Also the price will go up. And in regard to carrying a firearm just be aware that you having a firearm on a scene means that there is at least *one* firearm in that given situation.



What service(s)? Specifically, what services that aren't combined LE/EMS like Sunnyvale and whatnot?


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## saycarramrod (Feb 7, 2011)

adamjh3 said:


> What service(s)? Specifically, what services that aren't combined LE/EMS like Sunnyvale and whatnot?





There are a bunch of EMT's that I know that work in Springfield, MA that work for AMR that wear armor and a few carry guns. I have also heard of a few that wear armor in Hartford, CT. Both Hartford and Springfield have very high gun crime rates. 

There are also other reasons you can wear armor. It doesnt have to just be for stopping bullets. Body armor can also protect your torso in a MVC or when someone punches or attempts to stab you in chest or back. Think of what body armor does. It disperses the energy of a bullet over a greater surface area. This means that it would do the same thing for a steering column or a fist. The energy from the impact would be spread out over a larger area hopefully minimizing damage to yourself. Now in regards to getting stabbed while wearing armor, a knife can still penetrate soft body armor. However there will just be another half an inch of material to get through before the knife hits flesh.


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## Hockey (Feb 7, 2011)

saycarramrod said:


> There are a bunch of EMT's that I know that work in Springfield, MA that work for AMR that wear armor and a *few carry guns.* I have also heard of a few that wear armor in Hartford, CT. Both Hartford and Springfield have very high gun crime rates.
> 
> There are also other reasons you can wear armor. It doesnt have to just be for stopping bullets. Body armor can also protect your torso in a MVC or when someone punches or attempts to stab you in chest or back. Think of what body armor does. It disperses the energy of a bullet over a greater surface area. This means that it would do the same thing for a steering column or a fist. The energy from the impact would be spread out over a larger area hopefully minimizing damage to yourself. Now in regards to getting stabbed while wearing armor, a knife can still penetrate soft body armor. However there will just be another half an inch of material to get through before the knife hits flesh.



Yeah, no they don't....but cool story


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## saycarramrod (Feb 7, 2011)

Hockey said:


> Yeah, no they don't....but cool story



How do you know that?


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## Hockey (Feb 7, 2011)

saycarramrod said:


> How do you know that?



Because...I've been doing this long enough to know.  And if they are stupid enough to carry, they would be out of a job already


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## saycarramrod (Feb 7, 2011)

haha ok. I guess my eyes have lied to me then.


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## TransportJockey (Feb 7, 2011)

saycarramrod said:


> haha ok. I guess my eyes have lied to me then.



Hmm... if they're that stupid maybe someone should give that division of AMR a heads up.


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## Sam Adams (Feb 7, 2011)

My dept issues body armor to every one. They offer you an outer or inner carrier. I wear it EVERY day. A bunch of us do. I'm not so much concerned about being shot while in the midst of pt care as I am about the stray bullet. I will say this though, it's warm in the winter, hot in the summer, and protects you from both punches and kicks. You should have seen the look on the guys face who managed to punch and connect with the titanium breast plate.


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## HotelCo (Feb 7, 2011)

Hockey said:


> Because...I've been doing this long enough to know.  And if they are stupid enough to carry, they would be out of a job already



100% false. Several members carry at my company. If you carry correctly, and don't talk about it, no one will know.

.


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## reaper (Feb 7, 2011)

So it is ok to break the law? 

I have seen one person caught carrying on duty. After the charges and losing his job, he then lost his license too. So much worth it!

I have worked in some very bad areas and in 20 years, I have never had a need for a vest or a gun. I personally know 4 medics that were shot on duty. All of them were shot, because they got laxed and did not keep control of their scene. Keep your wits about you and keep situational awareness a top priority and you will be fine. 

I never discourage anyone from wearing a vest if they choose to. Just be aware that the violence everyone tries to portray of EMS, if bull. Learn how to talk to people and you can diffuse a lot of problems from the start and always leave and escape route on every scene!


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## Veneficus (Feb 7, 2011)

reaper said:


> So it is ok to break the law?
> 
> I have seen one person caught carrying on duty. After the charges and losing his job, he then lost his license too. So much worth it!
> 
> ...



Ahhh, the skills of the old guys.

I am sure you noticed that there is a global modern trend of trying to replace skill with technology.


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## monkeymagic (Feb 7, 2011)

The London Ambulance Service issue lightweight ballistic vests to all frontline staff - most don't ever use or carry it (protocol states that it should be available for use at all times). Senior managers carry heavy duty ballistic vests for delivery to staff at armed incident RVPs. The only staff i know of that wear theirs permanently are the motorbike / cycle response unit staff. Personally i only wear mine if i'm operating as a solo and get a knife / gun (rare) incident that i may decide to approach without Police back up.


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## DrParasite (Feb 7, 2011)

Sam Adams said:


> My dept issues body armor to every one


that's different.  if your department ISSUES you body armor, then you should wear it.  If my department issued me body armor, than I would wear it on every shift anytime I set foot on the street.

but department issued armor is a lot different than purchasing your own for use at work.

as for carrying guns while on duty, I know of one paramedic who brings a gun with him.  he worked per diem, and his full time job was as a cop in one of the worst cities in the state, plus he did a lot of narcotics task force stuff.  He NEVER pulled it out, and never intended to unless someone recognized him as an unarmed cop off duty and wanted to make his feelings known.

While I am sure some people feel the need to carry on duty, and some do without the knowledge of management, unless you are members of law enforcement, and are carrying with the consent of agency management, then you shouldn't be carrying on an ambulance.  and if people do, and they get caught, they deserved to be fired immediately.


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## HotelCo (Feb 7, 2011)

monkeymagic said:


> The London Ambulance Service issue lightweight ballistic vests to all frontline staff - most don't ever use or carry it (protocol states that it should be available for use at all times). Senior managers carry heavy duty ballistic vests for delivery to staff at armed incident RVPs. The only staff i know of that wear theirs permanently are the motorbike / cycle response unit staff. Personally i only wear mine if i'm operating as a solo and get a knife / gun (rare) incident that i may decide to approach without Police back up.
> 
> How many times are firearms used in crime in the UK per year?
> 
> .


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## Akulahawk (Feb 7, 2011)

In general, if you are not allowed to buy a firearm, you will not be allowed to buy body armor. In general. 

If you wear Level II armor, you'll be protected against the majority of handgun rounds available and you'll still enjoy some flexibility. Level II armor will generally stop the same rounds that Level IIIA armor will, but you'll see greater blunt force trauma if you're shot with something that IIIA rated armor will stop... Level IIIA is considered the most protective of the concealable armor. Level III and IV will not be concealable and must be worn as an outer garment. Level III will stop some rifle rounds... and is also quite thick because of it.

Personally, I'd choose Level IIIA armor... because what I carry on a daily basis would possibly defeat Level II armor. If you're armed, do not wear armor that your own ammunition can defeat...

Armor will help keep you warm in winter, but in Summer, you'll roast. 

Some armor will also be stab resistant. If you're going to wear stab armor, chances are that it's going to be fairly thick, so it'd have to be worn in an external carrier. Get a carrier that matches your uniform and it won't be so obvious that you're wearing armor... Ballistic armor is designed to stop bullets. Stab armor is designed to stop knives and ice picks moving (comparatively speaking) slowly.


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## ffemt8978 (Feb 7, 2011)

reaper said:


> So it is ok to break the law?
> 
> I have seen one person caught carrying on duty. After the charges and losing his job, he then lost his license too. So much worth it!



It's not illegal everywhere.


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## Veneficus (Feb 7, 2011)

Akulahawk said:


> If you're armed, do not wear armor that your own ammunition can defeat...



Who says Battleship combat is outdated? 

Armored against your own main guns...


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## Ghost (Feb 7, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> Lol. You can't do ANYTHING in NYC without a license. I've bought one off ebay for target practice.



I can't stand the laws in NYC...


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## monkeymagic (Feb 7, 2011)

> How many times are firearms used in crime in the UK per year?



I'm not sure if the stats, however in 10 years of working some of the most deprived suburbs in London i've only ever attended one shooting, which was gang related. Gun use is constantly on the increase in the capital as are teenage gang murders most of which are caused by knife wounds.


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## adamjh3 (Feb 7, 2011)

Does anyone have stats on the differences in armed assault/battery on EMS workers involving firearms compared to knives and other sharps?


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## Ghost (Feb 7, 2011)

adamjh3 said:


> Does anyone have stats on the differences in armed assault/battery on EMS workers involving firearms compared to knives and other sharps?



It's the same, because they're all deadly weapons.


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## adamjh3 (Feb 7, 2011)

Ghost said:


> It's the same, because they're all deadly weapons.



I'm aware of that. I'm just wondering if anyone knows if there's a breakdown of it anywhere.


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## Ghost (Feb 7, 2011)

adamjh3 said:


> I'm aware of that. I'm just wondering if anyone knows if there's a breakdown of it anywhere.



I'm not too sure how it is in your area, but here's NYC 

http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article265.htm


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## 18G (Feb 7, 2011)

I do not believe in Body Armor for EMS... least not ones that sit on the trucks and are not worn for the entire length of the shift. 

1) If its a shooting, stabbing, or some other already alerted high-risk scene, then EMS SHOULD NOT BE GOING IN AND SHOULD BE STAGING thus eliminating the need for a vest. 

2) Unless your gonna wear the body armor on every call, its not gonna do you any good. Refer to reason #1. For the unexpected violence on the chest pain call... you need to have the vest on under your uniform. It can't be a pick and choose when to wear it. It's either all or nothing.


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## adamjh3 (Feb 7, 2011)

The presence of a few cops doesn't make the scene safe


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## 18G (Feb 7, 2011)

There is a big difference between "cops on scene" and scene secured.


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## Bosco578 (Feb 8, 2011)

Our Dept. issues vests,concealable,if staff wish to use external carriers it is at your own personal expense. We are issued Level 2 armor with the T-15 Insert for added protection.
Most staff are good about wearing, a few have chosen to let the armor sit in their lockers for various reasons stated by others on here. ie: Too hot, think they will never need them...blah blah blah.

I think at the end of the day it's a personal choice unless it's in your dept's SOP's due to being issued,here even though it is issued you are not mandated to wear-_-. I personally have worn mine every shift in the last 13yrs,and it has come in handy on more than a few occasions.

No scene will ever be 100% ''secure''. Calls will be either under dispatched or over dispatched,people lie on the phone, family members react in various ways on calls. Police can and have been disarmed on calls,our PD recommended our armor be the same threat level as theirs for that exact reason.

The choice is yours. Stay Safe.


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## usalsfyre (Feb 8, 2011)

*I said it in another thread...*

...and I'll say it here to. The BEST self-defense weapons medical providers have are their brain, their mouth and their feet.


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## HotelCo (Feb 8, 2011)

usalsfyre said:


> ...and I'll say it here to. The BEST self-defense weapons medical providers have are their brain, their mouth and their feet.



I'll remember to tell the next guy who hits me over the head with a pipe that I don't appreciate it....

.


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## usalsfyre (Feb 8, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> I'll remember to tell the next guy who hits me over the head with a pipe that I don't appreciate it....
> 
> .



The point being, most situations can be defused by recognizing things aren't right, attempting to to use communication to your advantage while vacating the area if need be.


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## Ghost (Feb 8, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> I'll remember to tell the next guy who hits me over the head with a pipe that I don't appreciate it....
> 
> .



LOL!!! I think it's all on whoever wants to wear a vest and whoever doesn't. Hey if you feel safer with it then by all means wear one (I would if I could), if not then good for you as well. 

You never know what could happen and if your neighborhood is as bad as mine you'd want to wear one as well, no matter how "hot" it is... Put the complaints away and protect yourself while doing your job, it's quite simple if you think about it. 

This is a preference subject so opinions are all good, let's just not bash each other about what one likes.


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## Veneficus (Feb 8, 2011)

I never wore a vest, but looking back, in at least 2 of my employments it would probably have been a good idea. 

One of the places people wouldn't shoot you because you were in EMS. They would shoot you because you were a particlar color not theirs.

The other had a rather antigovernment official sentiment, and EMS wearing all black uniforms with gold metal badges was probably asking for it.

It is not the people who can shoot to worry about. It is the ones that can't.

I fully support if there is a known danger, don't go there. But again, it is not what is known that is at issue. With the highly charged political climate in the US right now, there are just one too many madmen out there.


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## Akulahawk (Feb 8, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> I'll remember to tell the next guy who hits me over the head with a pipe that I don't appreciate it....
> 
> .





usalsfyre said:


> The point being, most situations can be defused by recognizing things aren't right, attempting to to use communication to your advantage while vacating the area if need be.


True... but there will be times that it's not possible because the person attacking you wants to beat you, stab you, or kill you... simply because you're there. 


Veneficus said:


> I never wore a vest, but looking back, in at least 2 of my employments it would probably have been a good idea.
> 
> One of the places people wouldn't shoot you because you were in EMS. They would shoot you because you were a particlar color not theirs.
> 
> ...


There's one too many madmen everywhere... and not JUST in the US.  It's not the tool being wielded, it's the person wielding the tool that's the problem.


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## lampnyter (Feb 8, 2011)

If you feel that you work in an area where there is a chance of being shot/stabbed wear a BP vest. Its simple.


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## Ghost (Feb 8, 2011)

lampnyter said:


> If you feel that you work in an area where there is a chance of being shot/stabbed wear a BP vest. Its simple.



Indeed!


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## Handsome Robb (Feb 8, 2011)

I know a few medics that wear stab vests under their uniform. Never seen actual body armor but the area I live in doesn't have a ton of gun violence.


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## emt seeking first job (Feb 11, 2011)

lampnyter said:


> If you feel that you work in an area where there is a chance of being shot/stabbed wear a BP vest. Its simple.




Protection from being shot is a different thing than from being stabbed.

IMHO, EMS has a greater threat from the second; needles, etc.

Also, its easier to grab a gun than a knife. Its also harder to run after someone holding a gun than a knife.


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## Gray (Apr 6, 2011)

I have yet to start even my training, but on self defense I do know about. Most likley it seems I will be starting in a city that is known for violence. I will wear a BP/Stab Resistant vest, depending on what my findings are on what is more suitable for the area. 

Even if I don't work in a bad area, hind sight is 20/20. Now when I move this summer, I will get my LTC (I am already trained and certified) and carry everywhere except work. If you think that you don't need a vest, that's your decision. I also think it's important to learn at least basic self defense.


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## medichopeful (Apr 6, 2011)

Gray said:


> I have yet to start even my training, but on self defense I do know about. Most likley it seems I will be starting in a city that is known for violence. *I will wear a BP/Stab Resistant vest*, depending on what my findings are on what is more suitable for the area.
> 
> Even if I don't work in a bad area, hind sight is 20/20. Now when I move this summer, I will get my LTC (I am already trained and certified) and carry everywhere except work. If you think that you don't need a vest, that's your decision. I also think it's important to learn at least basic self defense.



You could always get one that protects from both! B)


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## 82nd medic (Apr 6, 2011)

Just because no one else touched on this: there is no such thing as a bullet proof vest. There are varying degrees of body armor that protect against an increasing types of rounds (a level IV vest can stop anything a level III can for example). If you don't know what type of armor you I've it's important to look it up. Unless it has hard plates in it, the max level of protection is IIIa which can stop 9mm JHP rounds and hollow points/soft points in most larger pistol calibers. It won't stop rifle rounds.
Soft Kevlar does absolutely nothing against stabs, but any armor with a hard plate will.


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## subliminal1284 (Apr 6, 2011)

Ghost said:


> Don't want to become a cop, rather save lives instead of possibly taking them. Just figured I'd ask about it...



Sorry to break the news to you but if you want to save lives you should of become a doctor, at best we keep them alive long enough to reach the hospital but it is the doctors who do the actual saves.


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## 82nd medic (Apr 6, 2011)

subliminal1284 said:


> Sorry to break the news to you but if you want to save lives you should of become a doctor, at best we keep them alive long enough to reach the hospital but it is the doctors who do the actual saves.



Without EMS doctors wouldn't be able to get to a lot of patients before they died... So who saves the life? The guy that managed the injury to the point to where it wasn't life threatening anymore or the one who did the treatment after the patients life was no longer at risk?
Not that I'm saying every patient will be that way, but some are.


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## Gray (Apr 6, 2011)

Well yes I know that nothing is stab/bullet proof, I just dislike the term body armor. It's reminds me of the Swat Gear look.


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## subliminal1284 (Apr 6, 2011)

As I said at best we keep them alive long enough for the doctors to do the actual save. For example if someone is bleeding out sure we can control the bleeding and keep them alive to get to the hospital, but it is the surgeons who are going to be the ones who actually correct the problem and save the patients life.


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## Seaglass (Apr 6, 2011)

82nd medic said:
			
		

> Just because no one else touched on this: there is no such thing as a bullet proof vest. There are varying degrees of body armor that protect against an increasing types of rounds (a level IV vest can stop anything a level III can for example). If you don't know what type of armor you I've it's important to look it up. Unless it has hard plates in it, the max level of protection is IIIa which can stop 9mm JHP rounds and hollow points/soft points in most larger pistol calibers. It won't stop rifle rounds.
> Soft Kevlar does absolutely nothing against stabs, but any armor with a hard plate will.



Even with a high level vest, protection doesn't mean you won't get hurt if you get shot. It just turns it into blunt, rather than penetrating, trauma. Wearing a bulletproof vest doesn't mean that going into an unsafe scenario is suddenly OK, and I really wish some of the cowboys out there would get that through their heads. Most of the time, in EMS, if you need a gun/vest/ninja skills, you're doing something wrong. 



subliminal1284 said:


> Sorry to break the news to you but if you want to save lives you should of become a doctor, at best we keep them alive long enough to reach the hospital but it is the doctors who do the actual saves.



Actually, if you really want to save lives, go be a food scientist or sanitation engineer in the Third World.


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## 82nd medic (Apr 6, 2011)

Blunt force trauma from a bullet is a bit spread out and even more so with a plate. Yes you can still get hurt but your less likely to get actually injured


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## 82nd medic (Apr 6, 2011)

subliminal1284 said:


> As I said at best we keep them alive long enough for the doctors to do the actual save. For example if someone is bleeding out sure we can control the bleeding and keep them alive to get to the hospital, but it is the surgeons who are going to be the ones who actually correct the problem and save the patients life.



Pt w/ vfib gets shocked into normal rhythm by the responding EMT... All the dr is doing after that is diagnosing, controlling, and preventing... The actual life saving was done by the EMT. Just my 2 cents


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## Seaglass (Apr 6, 2011)

82nd medic said:


> Blunt force trauma from a bullet is a bit spread out and even more so with a plate. Yes you can still get hurt but your less likely to get actually injured



Depends on the location and displacement. I don't think anyone's saying they don't help at all, but the picture that's emerged in the past few decades really isn't all that rosy. 

Here's a random assortment of some relevant articles, for anyone who's interested. At least some, like the third down, are free to the public... not sure about most, though.


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## 82nd medic (Apr 6, 2011)

Kevlar works by spreading out force, and when a plate is hit the force is applied to the entire plate. I've yet to see anyone hit in a plate that wasn't penetrated that had any injury worse than some bruising. The worst I've heard of from soft Kevlar is a fractured rib, which is still better than an entrance wound, cavity, and exit wound


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## Breakers1 (Jun 14, 2011)

*vests*

During the gang war back in the early 90's in Hartford, we got the older vests the PD was switching out. I wore it every night... you would hear the gunfire from the hospital ER parking area and had 2-3 times holes were found in Trucks. We beat the PD to some calls and found ourselves in real bad situations where we left the scene without getting out to wait for PD arrival. The shooter could have still been there.......it's dangerous out there. It does keep you nice and warm in the winter and offers back support as well, and with the proper undergarments, it can be tolerable in the summer, ask any Iraq or afgan vet.


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## rmabrey (Jun 14, 2011)

My first ride along I was paired with the only EMT and Medic in the city that wear a vest. When I asked, I got the answer I expected, "no EMT or Medic has ever been shot here, but we dont want to be the first" 

my 2 cents


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## emt seeking first job (Jun 14, 2011)

Breakers1 said:


> in Hartford, we got the older vests the PD was switching out.



Except in very special circumstances, nobody should be issued used equipment.


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## SanJoseEmt (Feb 18, 2019)

Frozennoodle said:


> If I worked 911 in this area a bullet proof vest would be something I would seriously consider.  I work IFT with some 911 roll overs and we have 2 units with bullet holes in them.  We have medics in the area who have had rival gangs follow them to the ER and fire into the back of the ambulance on the ramp to kill the target, people coming back on scene to kill the victim, all kinds of crazy stuff.




WHERES THIS?


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## Ensihoitaja (Feb 19, 2019)

SanJoseEmt said:


> WHERES THIS?


San Jose


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## SanJoseEmt (Feb 19, 2019)

Ensihoitaja said:


> San Jose



Okay


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## akflightmedic (Feb 19, 2019)

Nearly a 7.5 year resuscitation!! Not the record, yet impressive.


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## johnrsemt (Feb 23, 2019)

Detroit has had some trucks shot at, so has Chicago;
and it is getting more and more common


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