# 7 Dead, 2 Injured In Medical Copter Collision



## VentMedic (Jun 29, 2008)

http://www.kpho.com/news/16742474/detail.html

*FAA: 7 Dead In Medical Copter Collision*Crash Ignites Wildfire In Flagstaff

POSTED: 5:18 pm MST June 29, 2008
UPDATED: 5:44 pm MST June 29, 2008

FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. -- Two medical helicopters collided in mid-air Sunday afternoon in Flagstaff less than a mile from a medical center, killing seven people people, a Federal Aviation Administration spokesman said.

Three other people were critically injured, said FAA spokesman Ian Gregor.

A patient and pilot were among the dead, Gregor said.

The crash happened around 3:45 p.m. Sunday in a heavily wooded area, a Flagstaff Fire Department spokesman said.  

continued at:
http://www.kpho.com/news/16742474/detail.html


----------



## Jon (Jun 29, 2008)

WTF?

2 at once?

I'm just shocked. This is horrible.

Anything further? were any of the injured/dead on the ground vs. in air?


----------



## Chimpie (Jun 29, 2008)

Didn't another medicopter crash near there this past week?


----------



## mikeylikesit (Jun 29, 2008)

what is going on with these chopper pilots lately?


----------



## VentMedic (Jun 29, 2008)

Chimpie said:


> Didn't another medicopter crash near there this past week?



This one?

http://www.azfamily.com/news/homepa...al_news_062708_helicopter-crash.43da65b1.html

*Medic hurt in Air Evac near Ash Fork crash improving*

06:25 PM Mountain Standard Time on Saturday, June 28, 2008

FLAGSTAFF -- A paramedic who was injured when an Air Evac helicopter crashed near Ash Fork Friday morning is doing better. 


 Injured paramedic doing better The paramedic was the most seriously injured of the three people aboard the chopper. 

His condition was upgraded to serious Saturday. 

He, a pilot and a nurse were all hurt when their chopper crashed and rolled while trying to land to pick up a patient. 

The cause of the crash is under investigation. 

More at: (including original story)
http://www.azfamily.com/news/homepa...al_news_062708_helicopter-crash.43da65b1.html


----------



## MJordan2121 (Jun 30, 2008)

*Medical Helicopters Collide*

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/29/helicopter.crash/index.html


:sad:


----------



## MMiz (Jun 30, 2008)

One of the companies, Air Methods Corporation, had another crash a month ago that killed a pilot, doctor, and nurse.  We need some regulation in the industry.


----------



## Airwaygoddess (Jun 30, 2008)

My thoghts and prayers to he famly and friends that have lost so much.....-_-


----------



## Ridryder911 (Jun 30, 2008)

MMiz said:


> One of the companies, Air Methods Corporation, had another crash a month ago that killed a pilot, doctor, and nurse.  We need some regulation in the industry.



Couple of things from an air medical person. 

Yes, there needs to be some heavy regulation. Since the new payment structure guaranteed from Medicare & other payers, you have and will see an increase in flight services. They got lucky and is getting reimbursements rates much higher proportion ratio than ground EMS. So yes, they are getting well compensated now...not like ground EMS. 

With this (as well they have a hx.) of looking of more flights. One of the few things I disliked about avaition EMS that it was VERY competitive. It is a hidden secret but well known in the industry that pressure is placed on to get flights.. that is why there is such a marketing push from Air EMS. I was required to do at least 2-3 hours per day of PR .. I don't know how many pizzas, t-shirts, pins, ink pens I have dispensed. 

Many states now have trauma reimbursement plans as well that will pay for the off-set cost or the difference in lost revenue for Air EMS, but NOT for ground. So an increase and urge to obtain more "scene flights" have increased. 

Again all services acclaim to increase in safety and practice such procedures, in which I believe most do, or we would see more crashes and fatalities. Remember, there is no "small fender benders" in the air. So when such an occurrence does happen, there is horrible consequences that follows. 

The company Air Method is one of the largest if not the largest contractor/provider of EMS helicopters. What most do not know is that majority of EMS Helicopters are *NOT* owned locally, sure they may say XYZ Lifelight but are really owned and operated by Air Methods. Again they operate a large number of aircraft so in percentage wise their track record is much safer than most ground EMS units of having any mishap. 

The usage of EMS helicopters has increased as well due to everyone being taught ... "notify for air transport to trauma center" ... When in reality, it has NEVER been proven that Air EMS has changed outcomes except in rare long distance or rural areas. We need to QUIT having that mindset. As well as QUIT teaching the *Golden Hour MYTH!* There is *NO SUCH THING!* Majority of the patients can be safely transported per ground units, as fast and safer than Air EMS. 

We abuse the system. I admit it. Many times a lot of the patients are transported from urban areas that are not able or will decrease the number of ground units, so it is much easier to fly them. It is used many times for convienance, not necessity. As well the same for inner hospital transports. The time for a helo to respond, transport care over and then lift off, many local EMS could have been half way to destination. 

It is *NOT* that I am against Avaition EMS, far from it! I am for the skies to be safe, keep my fellow flight personnel alive and safe. Such tragic events are very hard to prevent in the line of duty with some of the type of missions performed, but at least study, and reduce and prevent further mishaps & tragedies from occurring. 

R/r 911


----------



## Flight-LP (Jun 30, 2008)

MMiz said:


> One of the companies, Air Methods Corporation, had another crash a month ago that killed a pilot, doctor, and nurse.  We need some regulation in the industry.



We have regulation, what we dont have is effective communication through crew resource management. The competitiveness of the industry along with the minimal reimbursements are causing people to make bad decisions. Whether it be the pilot or administration, doesn't matter, people need to learn how to say "no", stand by the decision, and then be supported by their superiors. As it stands, thats not the way the industry currently goes....


----------



## karaya (Jun 30, 2008)

MMiz said:


> We need some regulation in the industry.


 
How about starting with better training emergency responders as to _when_ to call for a helicopter?


----------



## Flight-LP (Jun 30, 2008)

karaya said:


> How about starting with better training emergency responders as to _when_ to call for a helicopter?



+5 with a gold star! Best post today!

This is a big issue that influences the risk. All too often ground EMS calls due to MOI which should not be a factor in the decision. Significant time saved should be the reason, period. Not "we don't want to drive all the way there" or "they are critical", nor "well they will wind up being transferred to begin with". 

The biggest one that pissed me off though was when a Texas county eliminated their EMS service and decided that they would call our helicopter as the primary 911. That one got shot down really quick....................

Another issue is that many companies will not allow the air medical crew to refuse transport if not appropriate. Glory will be the day that more air crews can tell ground EMS to transport the pt. to an appropriate facility and not waste the time, money, and safety of the helicopter crew.


Rid - I must have posted at the same time as your response. Maybe it is a geographical thing, but I know that local rural locations have had a rough time with reimbursements. Several are now resorting to questionable membership programs that are causing all kinds of issues here in Texas..............


----------



## Ops Paramedic (Jun 30, 2008)

Once again, our thoughts with those who lost a family member or good friend.

Just to comment on the general discussion leading from the original post...  From our side we hardly ever have a helo crash, let alone a medical helo.  I think the reason is simple:  We don't have that many.  Maybe 10 for the entire country, one operated by a large private service and the other by an international relief orginisation.

And yes, they are situated in the metropolitan areas (??).  It was mentioned that it is a very competative market in the US, whereas in contrast we have to beg for it to come out.  A lot of times the patient will fit the call out criteria, but the flight is turned down by the MO.  Sometimes patients who can really benefit from the flight are turned down, and vice versa.  Its also a case of who you know, or are, and not what you know.

With regards to the pilots, i respect them, and the ones i have come across (fixed and rotory wing) are extremely profesional.  We (Ground crew calling the helo)sometimes think that they may not have the patient's best interest at heart.  We should stop a for a moment, and realise that they have the crew's best interest at heart, which is hounarble.  As far as i am aware, our pilots do not get informed as to the specific details of the call and or patient, simply a:  "Can we fly to this location??  This eliminates a some of the emotional envolvement of  making the call to fly or not...


----------



## scottmcleod (Jun 30, 2008)

karaya said:


> How about starting with better training emergency responders as to _when_ to call for a helicopter?



We spent quite a huge chunk of time on this during our training. It's not a simple call, and should be a thorough (but quick) discussion between dispatchers and on-scene responders. Quick confirmations about the patient's current status and immediate risks that require expedited or specialist transport can give a more solid yes/no than "I guess we could use a helo".

Wise words from R/R above too, it's good to see it from that perspective as well.


----------



## Jeremy89 (Jun 30, 2008)

Latest news- Flight Nurse James Taylor in Critical condition....all others are deceased.


----------



## MSDeltaFlt (Jun 30, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> Couple of things from an air medical person.
> 
> Yes, there needs to be some heavy regulation. Since the new payment structure guaranteed from Medicare & other payers, you have and will see an increase in flight services. They got lucky and is getting reimbursements rates much higher proportion ratio than ground EMS. So yes, they are getting well compensated now...not like ground EMS.
> 
> ...



Amen, Rid.  Amen


----------



## So. IL Medic (Jun 30, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> As well as QUIT teaching the *Golden Hour MYTH!* There is *NO SUCH THING!* Majority of the patients can be safely transported per ground units, as fast and safer than Air EMS.
> 
> 
> R/r 911



I don't know about that. The first data was simple time to treatment vs mortality in WWI. Longer the time - the greater the mortality. Military medical personnel stress the golden hour as "Historically, wound data and casualty rates indicate that more than 90 percent of all casualties die within the first hour of severe wounding without advanced trauma life support." _The Golden Hour Standard._ JFQ 2006 41:2 and in cases of heatstroke, outcome is time dependent on intervention, " We argue that there is a "window time period" within which simple and effective cooling techniques can determine prognosis." _The "golden hour" for heatstroke treatment._ Mil Med. 2004 Jul;169(7):iv. 

I would accept that "window time period" is more appropriate considering the stressing of a 90 minute window in acute MI situations.

I would also agree that air transport is over-stressed. More birds in the air simply means more crashes, a matter of averages just like more cars on a road means more MVCs.

It is unfortunate.


----------



## karaya (Jun 30, 2008)

This is a link for Bledsoe's latest on the helicopter issues:

http://www.ems1.com/columnists/bryan-bledsoe/articles/404642-Alright-Ill-Say-It

This doves tails a bit into Rids post earlier concerning the "Golden Hour"


----------



## Ridryder911 (Jul 1, 2008)

So. IL Medic said:


> I don't know about that. The first data was simple time to treatment vs mortality in WWI. Longer the time - the greater the mortality. Military medical personnel stress the golden hour as "Historically, wound data and casualty rates indicate that more than 90 percent of all casualties die within the first hour of severe wounding without advanced trauma life support." _The Golden Hour Standard._ JFQ 2006 41:2 and in cases of heatstroke, outcome is time dependent on intervention, " We argue that there is a "window time period" within which simple and effective cooling techniques can determine prognosis." _The "golden hour" for heatstroke treatment._ Mil Med. 2004 Jul;169(7):iv.
> 
> I would accept that "window time period" is more appropriate considering the stressing of a 90 minute window in acute MI situations.
> 
> ...



Every illness andinjury has a golden time for treatment. This is far more in-depth than just time frame. Again it is based upon severity, the make up of the individual, underlying disease process, etc. Even trauma related injuries. 

Ironically, we gobbled what has been dished out to us. Most not realizing and knowing a large portion was "enhanced" Even the late R Adams Cowley ( of the same name Shock Trauma) who coined the phrase "Golden Hour" .. was not in fact a trauma surgeon rather a cardiac surgeon. Again assumptions. 

As EMS matures, and emergency medicine gets more scientific we will see many of these assumptions removed with clinical evidenced medicine, and facts. 

R/r 911


----------



## Jon (Jul 1, 2008)

From Chief Goldfelder's "The Secret List" - http://firefighterclosecalls.com/secret.php




> *FIREFIGHTER LODD:  FF WAS AMONGST THOSE KILLED IN DOUBLE HELICOPTER CRASH.*
> 6 people (not 7 as we initially reported in the Secret List) died in the weekend accident, including Firefighter Mike McDonald, 26 from the Chief Mountain Hotshots-Bureau of Indian Affairs, Blackfeet Agency. One chopper had been carrying FF McDonald and was bringing him back from a fire on the south rim of the Grand Canyon, *where he'd been injured working a fire line.* Eyewitnesses saw one aircraft approaching the hospital to land, but the second came up from the south at low elevation, colliding with the helicopter carrying FF McDonald. Six people were killed in the crash while a seventh remains in critical condition. *It should also be noted that one of the pilots killed is the brother in law of a long time Secret List reader, a FF in NY*. Our deepest thoughts to all affected by this tragic event.
> 
> *FROM THE SCENE DETAILS ON THAT HELICOPTER CRASH:*
> ...



As of right now, the death toll appears to be *only* 6. 4 aeromedical crew, a Bureau of Indian Affairs Firefighter, and an unknown patient. I've modified the title of the thread accordingly.


> Guardian Air pilot Pat Graham, flight nurse Shawn Shreeve, and Classic Lifeguard pilot Tom Caldwell and flight medic Tom Clausing. Classic Lifeguard flight nurse James Taylor survived the crash in critical condition.


~From www.FlightWeb.com


----------



## VentMedic (Jul 1, 2008)

The paramedic who was dropped off due to weight limit must be going through some mixed emotions.


----------



## VentMedic (Jul 4, 2008)

*Sad news*

Sad news:

http://www.kpho.com/news/16793546/detail.html

*Seventh Victim Of Copter Crash Dies*
Collision Claims Registered Nurse From Salt Lake City

POSTED: 6:18 pm MST July 4, 2008
UPDATED: 7:11 pm MST July 4, 2008



> FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. -- The lone survivor of Sunday's mid-air crash of two medical helicopters has died at a Flagstaff hospital here, authorities said.
> 
> James Taylor was a registered nurse and was flying on one helicopter that was ferrying a patient from the south rim of the Grand Canyon to a Flagstaff hospital.
> 
> ...


----------



## Jon (Jul 5, 2008)

Bummer.
Thread updated.


----------



## VentMedic (Jul 17, 2008)

*Copters aware of each other prior to Ariz. collision*

By Jeffrey Leib 
The Denver Post 

Article Last Updated: 07/16/2008 05:22:51 PM MDT



> Pilots and dispatchers for two medical helicopters that collided near Flagstaff Medical Center in Arizona on June 29 knew both aircraft were approaching the facility at roughly the same time, according to a federal air-safety report issued today.
> 
> The crash killed five crew members and two patients.
> 
> A dispatch coordinator responsible for flights into the medical center's helipad told the Air Methods Corp. pilot that the other craft was en route, and he responded, "Roger, will be looking for 'em, thanks," according to the preliminary accident report from the National Transportation Safety Board.



Full news story at:
http://www.denverpost.com/ci_9900462?source=rss


----------



## MMiz (Jul 17, 2008)

Vent,

I just read that article.  That's just tragic.


----------

