# Bullet Proof Vests?



## B12 (Jan 27, 2015)

Would you agree or disagree with EMS being required to wear bullet proof vests?

Personally, I agree and support this...


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## irishboxer384 (Jan 27, 2015)

1-There is no such thing as a bulletproof vest. 
2- unless youre in law enforcement or work in a warzone you don't need one= 'scene safety'
3- performing patient treatment with body armour is pretty far from comfortable if you have never tried it


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## B12 (Jan 27, 2015)

1. Yes, they are for the most part bullet resistant (I've worn one!!)
2. Scene safety also means  protection.
3. Have you ever tried performing patient treatment with body armour? It's an adjustment but I'd rather be uncomfortable then dead!!


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## Handsome Robb (Jan 27, 2015)

I don't particularly think we need to wear them all the time. I do like the idea of external plate carriers with some additional lateral stab/spike protection to be worn on any violent crime.


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## irishboxer384 (Jan 27, 2015)

No they aren't bullet proof.
Scene safety means you don't enter a scene unless it is safe- meaning you shouldn't be in a situation where it is unsafe.
Yes I have provided treatment while wearing armour, and your local metro area isn't somewhere to warrant being uncomfortable.

If people have money to spend it should be on advanced driver training or de-escalation skills etc


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## Carlos Danger (Jan 27, 2015)

irishboxer384 said:


> No they aren't bullet proof.
> *Scene safety means you don't enter a scene unless it is safe*- meaning you shouldn't be in a situation where it is unsafe.
> Yes I have provided treatment while wearing armour, and your local metro area isn't somewhere to warrant being uncomfortable.
> 
> *If people have money to spend it should be on advanced driver training or de-escalation skills etc*



This.

If I felt the need to wear armor routinely, I'd find a different place to work.


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## B12 (Jan 27, 2015)

Scene safety means you enter a scene that's "declared" safe but as with any scene , it can quickly go from safe to unsafe within seconds.
I've also provided treatment while wearing one which is why I support EMS being required to wear them. Have you ever been on a scene which went from being declared safe to being unsafe with a blink of an eye?
And I'm not sure which bullet proof vests you wear, but yes they are bullet proof with a few exceptions. If they weren't bullet proof you wouldn't find Law Enforcement or Military wearing them!

Also, advanced driving training and de-escalation skills should be apart of every EMT course in my opinion. We work on the same streets as Cops and Firefighters, facing the same dangers and violence, why shouldn't EMS be in that same boat with protection? We already wear bunker gear (in some cases) on fires, why shouldn't we be required to wear vests on potential violent calls?


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## irishboxer384 (Jan 27, 2015)

B12 said:


> Scene safety means you enter a scene that's "declared" safe but as with any scene , it can quickly go from safe to unsafe within seconds.
> I've also provided treatment while wearing one which is why I support EMS being required to wear them. Have you ever been on a scene which went from being declared safe to being unsafe with a blink of an eye?
> And I'm not sure which bullet proof vests you wear, but yes they are bullet proof with a few exceptions. If they weren't bullet proof you wouldn't find Law Enforcement or Military wearing them!
> 
> Also, advanced driving training and de-escalation skills should be apart of every EMT course in my opinion. We work on the same streets as Cops and Firefighters, facing the same dangers and violence, why shouldn't EMS be in that same boat with protection? We already wear bunker gear (in some cases) on fires, why shouldn't we be required to wear vests on potential violent calls?




Yes it can go from safe to unsafe in a matter of seconds, but so can shopping at the local mall, it doesn't mean you prepare for war. I'm a bit surpised as a former LEO you aren't aware of the limitations of 'bullet proof vests'- there is a reason they are properly entitled 'armour'- all armour can be penetrated...same with 'bullet resistant' glass.

EMS shouldn't be in the same boat because it is the job of LE to make a scene safe- hence they are the ones with guns and vests and helmets etc...the job of EMS is to stay away until it is safe- because if those providers get injured then there is noone to treat the patients.


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## Chewy20 (Jan 27, 2015)

I've entered a declared "safe" scene before only to have someone laying on the floor shot with the shooter still in the house and pulled the gun on us. Scene safety declared by dispatch doesn't mean crap.

My department issues them to field medics. You're SUPPOSED to wear them when staged or entering a potentially violent crime scene. I haven't had to dawn it yet.

And for it being uncomfortable while doing pt care? I don't buy into that, never used it on an actual call, but during the academy I was making the same movements and picking up the same weight as a real call and I never noticed it.

I support it being an option to wear. Not something all the time.


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## irishboxer384 (Jan 27, 2015)

Chewy20 said:


> I've entered a declared "safe" scene before only to have someone laying on the floor shot with the shooter still in the house and pulled the gun on us. Scene safety declared by dispatch doesn't mean crap.
> 
> My department issues them to field medics. You're SUPPOSED to wear them when staged or entering a potentially violent crime scene. I haven't had to dawn it yet.
> 
> ...




I agree with that point for sure- it should be available in the vehicles. 
On the uncomfortable issue- it is extra weight on your body which restricts your ability to cool off, and being blunt- how many obese and out of shape medics have you seen? I think wearing body armour in a hot, fast paced environment is going to result in more casualties than it saves.


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## Tigger (Jan 27, 2015)

If you want to wear one, fine. But don't tell me I have to wear one as a requirement, I'll make that choice for myself thank you very much. 

Why does this always come up? There are many, many ways to be killed or injured on the job yet we always seem to focus on guns. Why is that? 

Meanwhile it's difficult to convince people to wear a traffic vest on the roadways. Guess what's more likely to kill you, an absented minded driver or gunfire?


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## Gurby (Jan 27, 2015)

B12 said:


> And I'm not sure which bullet proof vests you wear, but yes they are bullet proof with a few exceptions. If they weren't bullet proof you wouldn't find Law Enforcement or Military wearing them!



10 seconds of internet research reveals this:



> Soft vests are made from many layers of woven or laminated fibers and can be capable of protecting the wearer from *small-caliber handgun and shotgun projectiles, and small fragments from explosives such as hand grenades.*
> 
> Metal or ceramic plates can be used with a soft vest, providing *additional protection from rifle rounds*



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulletproof_vest

So a vest protects you from small-caliber handgun rounds.  I'm not very reassured by this.


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## Akulahawk (Jan 27, 2015)

Gurby: the level of protection that a vest offers is related to the number of layers in the armor panels. Fewer layers means less protection. More layers mean more protection. Fewer layers also means increased comfort, more layers mean increased stiffness. Concealable armor is generally available to Level IIIA... which will protect against most handgun rounds. Those are pretty bulky, stiff, and hot. Once you bump up to a Level III, those are external carrier models and they're effective against some rifle rounds. Level IV is supposed to be effective against a single hit from a .30-06 M2AP (armor piercing) round. 

Most bullet resistant vests aren't very effective against stabs. There are separate ratings for that. 

My feeling about this is that it should generally be up to the individual provider whether or not to wear body armor. Certain situations should make it mandatory, but if that's the case, "external" armor should be immediately available on each vehicle. Also, just because a scene has been declared safe, doesn't mean that the scene is actually safe even though there are many people around with guns and whatnot. Once a scene has been declared safe, sometimes those same people drop their guard and that's when bad stuff happens on "safe" scenes. 

Given a choice, I would wear concealable armor when riding an ambulance, especially one that runs 911. I would normally choose a Level II as that's effective against the vast majority of handguns. The FN Five-Seven pistol may penetrate a Level II, and possibly a Level IIIA, depending upon the specific ammo used. Just don't count on a concealable vest to provide much protection against any rifle.


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## irishboxer384 (Jan 27, 2015)

Going back to @Tigger's post, if guys want to protect themselves then why not start at the things most common to hurt us?

1- Hugely obese medics- to look after their health and safety shouldn't EMS generally have more stringent physical standards? 
2- knee pads- providing treatment in the street and kneeling can result in lacerations/punctures from whatever object
3- advanced driving skills and courses
4- wearing a crash helmet for driving on code 3
5-taking courses for de-escalating a situation (hospital based staff do this, it isn't great but its a start)
6- self defence classes
7- enforced wearing of reflective vests etc (road workers etc get fired if they don't wear the correct headgear/reflective vests)

In doing a risk assessment statistically, I'd hazard a guess that being shot/stabbed is WAY down the priority list for ensuring a medic's health and safety on the job. As with everything self-defence is a personal choice and if someone sat next to me with body armor on I wouldn't care, so my angle of discussion is based more upon the idea of an entire company/system trying to enforce it as a rule.


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## Tigger (Jan 27, 2015)

Also the idea that "safe scenes can become unsafe" is sound. But to use this as an argument for bullet resistant vests is a bit of a stretch. When a scene becomes violent it's usually in close quarters, where again that vest is going to have limited utility. Not to mention that it protects against firearms only.

Maybe this is fatalistic, but I do my damnedest to stay away from dangerous situations. If a scene gets uncomfortable, I leave. If neither of these things are possible I likely made a mistake that I will not recover from.


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## Dfib23 (Jan 27, 2015)

I think we should be wearing all the ppe that is available to us. Hi-viz jackets should be worn when at the scene of a MVC. It is up to you to protect yourself. We have a duty to get back home safe each night. Yes a scene can become dangerous very quickly but if I have the slightest inclination that it is becoming unsafe I take action to ensure my safety and crew. Do bullet resistant/stab vest need to be worn all the time no, but I am sure there are cases that do warrant them. I would rather have them on the ambulance and not need them than need them and not have htem.


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## gotbeerz001 (Jan 27, 2015)

"But what if they shoot you in the face?!" -Lloyd Christmas

I work in One of the most violent cities in the nation. I do not feel the need to wear armor. I will not publicly denounce those who choose to. However, as said before, most of the situations that turn hostile can be traced back to a poor series of responses or actions made by the responder. 

Even of you work in a rough area, if you feel like you seem to have more than your share of violent patients, you may want to look at how you render care. 

"We have seen the enemy and he is us." -Pogo


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## WildlandEMT89 (Jan 27, 2015)

I'm much more worried about everyone and their mothers having some form of blade on them these days. I love my pocket knife and multi tools, but didn't like the thought of the 3am psych or unconscious etoh having a weapon on them. Just the other day fire handed a pt to us only for us to find a large fixed blade in the back pocket of someone who moments later confessed to committing several violent crimes earlier that day.

You can choose the area you work in, but you can't pick your patients, and you can't always maintain 100% scene safety. I would rather have equipment available for the off chance things do go south.

Also, if your company provides our requires equipment and you are injured while choosing not to use it, good bye benefits and workers comp claim.


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## broken stretcher (Jan 27, 2015)

I personally do not work with out it on. What does it cost me to wear it? Nothing. Yes its hot an uncomfortable, but "id rather have it and not need it then need it and not have it. YOu can practice all the "scene safety in the world but you don't know who is packing a burner. At my company it is optional to wear one and they are NOT provided for you. But why not wear it. What does it hurt?


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## cprted (Jan 27, 2015)

I have no issue with kevlar vests being available to those who wish to wear them.  But required?  No thank you.  I spent two years wearing one in a previous life, I'm good thanks.


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## Tigger (Jan 27, 2015)

I also don't really understand donning body armor for calls involving violent crime. If you know it's a violent crime, aren't you going to stage until law enforcement arrives? I realize that this does not guarantee safety but you are likely safer at that sort of scene than on your run of the mill "unknown medical" when PD is not on scene or coming. 

Given that it seems that if you're going to wear one, you need to be wearing it all the time. And for me, at my job(s), that is just not realistic. I'd constantly be taking it on and off and I'm sure my grandpa back would not be a fan of it either. 

The only time I could see wearing one would be for "warm zone" operations at some short of spree shooting where PD believes that they have the shooter but still have not yet done a full sweep of the building. Obviously this is done with a team of dedicated officers for your support and protection, and the goal is to get in and get out with the patients.

And one last hit, I don't make a habit of sitting around at scenes where crimes have been committed. Put the patient in the ambulance and get a little bit away and then stop if you feel the need. No need to hang around such a scene. Make the scene safe by leaving it...


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## irishboxer384 (Jan 27, 2015)




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## Ewok Jerky (Jan 27, 2015)

The day I need to wear a vest to work is the day I start looking for a new job. My life is too valuable and the pay isnt good enough. If I wanted that level of danger I would join the military.


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## Jim37F (Jan 28, 2015)

No such thing as a bullet proof vest. Even my ~35-40lb military hard plate IOTV wont stop every round it's likely to face in the event my Reserve unit actually gets called up. I wouldn't trust my FD issue soft armor vest to stop anything more than a 9mm or so. Policy is to wear them on shootings and stabbings and other violent incidents where we feel they are warranted....after nearly a year here, I've never actually put it on more than once or twice for sizing or inventory drills as the new guy.


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## epipusher (Jan 28, 2015)

A poll for this question should be:

Bullet resistant Vest on duty?

A-Yes. My safety is of great concern.

B-No. Do not feel it is warranted.

C-I want to look cool while ordering my burger in Wendys


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## Rin (Jan 28, 2015)

Crime is pretty high in my city, with incidences of shootings and stabbings being pretty common.  We're also a hot spot for drug overdoses.

If I worked 911 in the city I live in, I wouldn't say no to a vest.

It's easy to say that I'll only find myself in danger if I make poor decisions.  But I can't say my decisions are always perfectly wise.


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## irishboxer384 (Jan 28, 2015)

epipusher said:


> A poll for this question should be:
> 
> Bullet resistant Vest on duty?
> 
> ...



D- I'm struggling to get into my EMS pants so its Body Armor, plates and pressups for 12 hour shifts


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## Angel (Jan 28, 2015)

irishboxer384 said:


> D- I'm struggling to get into my EMS pants so its Body Armor, plates and pressups for 12 hour shifts



If I wouldn't be smelly that sounds like a good idea to pass the time


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## irishboxer384 (Jan 28, 2015)

Angel said:


> If I wouldn't be smelly that sounds like a good idea to pass the time



It does rile me when people try to incorporate physical exercise into a shift when they knowingly cannot shower after


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## SandpitMedic (Jan 28, 2015)

C
Final answer


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## SandpitMedic (Jan 29, 2015)

AMR allows you to use your wellness dollars towards "bullet proof" vests.

You get $200 wellness dollars a year.

You can buy a surplus police vest for about $180-$300 at bulletproofme.com


For all you guys who feel this job is sooooo dangerous.

Most of the vests are concealed vests, worn under the uniform shirt, and are slim/lightweight Kevlar panels as to be somewhat hidden.

I have one that I used to use at a different job. I never wear it now. But if I was wearing it- you wouldn't be able to tell.


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## Chewy20 (Jan 29, 2015)

I should note that the ones we are issued are soft panel and I wouldnt trust it against anything more than a 9mm. Other than that, probably better off throwing the vest at the dude and go at em like a spider monkey.


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## SandpitMedic (Jan 29, 2015)

Chewy20 said:


> ... probably better off throwing the vest at the dude and go at em like a spider monkey.



Looks like we have new TTP's guys.  

Sheesh.


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## WestMetroMedic (Jan 30, 2015)

I oppose a ballistics vest mandate, but I have chosen to wear a ballistics vest for the past 7 years, both when I am working traditional 911 and when I am in my role as a Community Paramedic. The latter role is one that I recently decided on with the rash of random violence against public safety folks. I work in Minneapolis, a generally very safe city, but there are genuine whack-jobs everywhere. About 30% of my agencies Paramedics wear a ballistics vest (Reimbursement of $300 from the hospital and $300 from the union), about half of them wear their vest concealed, the rest use an external carrier that matches their khaki/silvertan uniform shirt well.

It isn't the violent patient that I fear getting shot by. It isn't walking into homeless encampments that I anticipate being shanked. It isn't the excited delirium patient that I think is going to wallop on me. It is the plotting, unmedicated, delusional psychopath with a chip on their shoulder about the government that doesn't give a damn about what "government" employee they shoot, just as long as they fulfill their delusion. I drive around by myself in a squad car all day without a partner's 2nd set of eyes.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/24/webster-new-york-firefighter-shot/1788917/
http://www.mprnews.org/story/2015/0...ncil-meeting-interrupted-by-sounds-of-gunfire
http://www.odmp.org/officer/22309-police-officer-rafael-ramos
http://www.odmp.org/officer/22310-police-officer-wenjian-liu
Were any of these people planning on getting shot? No. Were any of these people in situations any different than we would expect to be in during the course of a typical shift? Nope. City Council Meeting, Structure Fire, Stand-By.
Have you ever used the fire extinguisher under your kitchen sink? Probably Not. Nice to know it is going to be there when you need it though. Will it stop every fire? Nope, but it's better than nothing...

If you are looking at purchasing a vest, my personal recommendation is to spend as much money as you can afford, and then some on yours. I spent $900 on mine and it is comfortable, maneuverable, and a pleasant habit to wear. You truly get what you pay for. You can still, quite easily, *E*arn *M*oney *S*leeping in a well fitted vest. 

You also fare much better in a motor vehicle accident while wearing a ballistics vest and it makes getting punched much more pleasant.
It also makes me look like I might have an upper body (I don't. #skinnyguyproblems).


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## DesertMedic66 (Jan 30, 2015)

I have only seen 1 Medic or EMT (I don't know which one he was) wear a vest. He started after a crew was on scene inside of a residence for a medical aid when a drive by shooting occurred at the residence. From what I heard you could hear the gun fire in the background as the crew was on the radio with dispatch to get PD there. This was at a company I did medic internship with. 

For my company I have not seen or heard of anyone wearing vests. However a company not far from mine has a TEMS unit and from the pictures it looks like they are issued vests, gas masks, helmets, and some other things.


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## Chewy20 (Jan 30, 2015)

We also have millennium masks, will more than likely never use the thing, but its there.


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## Ensihoitaja (Jan 30, 2015)

I wouldn't support a full mandate for normal EMS operations.

I wore a vest for a couple years, and nobody shot me- not even a little. Seriously, it was really hot and uncomfortable. I actually lost a bunch of weight and the vest I had didn't fit anymore. I decided not to spend the money to get a new one.

Roughly 40-50% of my coworkers wear body armor, it's more prevalent among the night crews than day crews.


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## Tigger (Jan 31, 2015)

Chewy20 said:


> We also have millennium masks, will more than likely never use the thing, but its there.


I'm more likely to wear that than the hand me down body armor in the ambulance that's for sure. I'm not sure why vests expire, but ours expired along time ago. Meanwhile I have worn the mask once this year...long story but it got some deputies to stop being idiots and nearly got me shot. But alas.


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## Rin (Jan 31, 2015)

Tigger said:


> I'm more likely to wear that than the hand me down body armor in the ambulance that's for sure. I'm not sure why vests expire, but ours expired along time ago. Meanwhile I have worn the mask once this year...long story but it got some deputies to stop being idiots and nearly got me shot. But alas.



Sounds like an interesting story, you big tease!


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## Chewy20 (Jan 31, 2015)

Tigger said:


> I'm more likely to wear that than the hand me down body armor in the ambulance that's for sure. I'm not sure why vests expire, but ours expired along time ago. Meanwhile I have worn the mask once this year...long story but it got some deputies to stop being idiots and nearly got me shot. But alas.


 
They expire basically because it is a liability issue to the manufacturer if an old vest fails for some reason. So they have some legal backup if they put exp. dates on them. Mine is new but, not really concerned cuz I doubt I will ever actually wear it.


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## Tigger (Jan 31, 2015)

Rin said:


> Sounds like an interesting story, you big tease!


As you wish, it is sort of relevant I suppose.

Dispatched to a house way out in the middle of nowhere for an unknown illness call, dispatch recommends we take universal precautions as the caller is reporting large amounts of rat droppings. Arrive on scene to find two very agitated sheriff's deputies who advise us that, "this is it, I think he has it. He has the Ebola." 

Wut.

Apparently the guy was a security contractor and had recently come back from Afghanistan. When he came home, he flew directly to Dulles airport. The deputies heard "Dallas Airport" and told me that there was no way he could fly direct from Afghanistan to Dallas, so he must have had a layover somewhere. The patient denied this, the deputies told him he was lying, and backed out, apparently fearing that his layover had been in Liberia or something so therefore he had Ebola. This is when we arrived.

I didn't buy the story but they were being idiots with their demeanor and yelling at me to take things seriously (I was struggling), so I grabbed the big duffel of PPE and suited/masked up. Suddenly they were no longer talking like they knew what they were doing. "Dude are you sure you need all that? I mean it's probably not that big of a deal right? There's no way we could have gotten it right?" Umm I don't know guys, I'm going to make contact and see what's up.

So I went inside up to his bedroom on the second floor and found the patient vomiting in the bathroom. There were several rifles in the bathtub with him (again wut, apparently that's where he was keeping them when while he had movers in the house). Now you have to understand, where I work I find guns in about every house I go to. A rifle or several is not a reason to leave the scene. So I got to talking to him and he gave me his story and how he thought he had food poisoning. However, when he finally turned to look at me he saw me in the suit and was apparently frightened and started yelling. At this time a loaded handgun fell out of his bathrobe. I'm not sure if he reached for it because I was booking it out of the house as fast as my a bit tight fitting Tyvek suit would let me. 

There might be a lesson in there somewhere. But even if I had body armor, I would not have been wearing it because those suits are hot as hell. If I had an external carrier I still would have been wearing it because the deputies apparently did not notice the guns.

So yea, PPE. It'll get you killed.


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## systemet (Jan 31, 2015)

My department issues ballistic vests upon request. They're level, IIB, mine weighs 6 lbs. If we request one, we are expected to wear it, although there is essentially zero enforcement.

We were initially only allowed to have internal carriers, after consultation with city police, who advised against externals. So we did that. Now we have a choice, and I no longer work that much in the city, often doing 48's in a rural site, so I wear an external.

I don't really notice it. Granted, a hot summer day here is maybe 32 C (90 F).  Currently it's - 10 C ( 14 F), and we can hit - 40 C ( - 40 F) on a cold day. So, I don't find I overheat in it often. It doesn't affect my movement, and it weighs 6lbs.  [*Corollary, one of the places I work gives out "trauma vests", that are knife-resistant, they have rigid hard plates, and seem to end up wedged in my trachea and limit my upper body mobility. I don't wear these.]

As many of you have identified there's a number of limitations with vests; they are designed to prevent against a limited number of calibers/rounds at a given threat level, if you try to protect against rifle rounds, they're extremely heavy and very impractical for most EMS work, they don't stop the more common threat of a knife, and the actual incidence of paramedics getting is very low. So there's a small benefit protecting against a rare risk.  The risk for infectious disease, motor vehicle trauma, musculoskeletal injuries, PTSD, alcoholism/drug dependence, depression, etc. is far higher.

On the other hand, my employer offered me, a means to provide myself with limited protection against a real (albeit infrequent) risk in my line of work, after an OH&S assessment, and consultation with local police who were strongly supportive. I agree with the earlier poster, who said that violence is unpredictable, and agree that calls where law enforcement is already on scene are probably fairly low risk. As a result, I wear it on every call, along with my safety glasses. The small inconvenience of feeling slightly warm from time to time, and occasionally catching on stuff in hallways, in my opinion, is worth the insurance, even if the risk is low.

Body armour is threat mitigation. It's there for when everything else fails, and is a last resort, last line of protection with a fair failure rate. It's not a replacement for a safety culture, staging policy, situational judgment/awareness, defusing/descalation or avoidance. It's just another layer in the continuum.

I wouldn't judge anyone else for choosing to take advantage of a safety tool provided by their employer. I do agree that it's ridiculous to wear a vest if you don't carry your radio, or have good discipline with your PPE and scene assessment.


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## Chewy20 (Jan 31, 2015)

systemet said:


> My department issues ballistic vests upon request. They're level, IIB, mine weighs 6 lbs. If we request one, we are expected to wear it, although there is essentially zero enforcement.
> 
> We were initially only allowed to have internal carriers, after consultation with city police, who advised against externals. So we did that. Now we have a choice, and I no longer work that much in the city, often doing 48's in a rural site, so I wear an external.
> 
> ...


 
So, how much crap do you take for wearing safety glasses on every call? lol


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## Ensihoitaja (Jan 31, 2015)

Chewy20 said:


> So, how much crap do you take for wearing safety glasses on every call? lol



I wear safety glasses on every call- Oakley Flak Jackets with clear lenses. Never gotten any crap about it.


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## systemet (Jan 31, 2015)

Chewy20 said:


> So, how much crap do you take for wearing safety glasses on every call? lol



None.  I started in EMS in 1997.

 My employer issues a single pair of Oakley safety glasses a year, and we have carts with cheaper UVEX safety glasses all over the place. It's been a difficult change for me, but you only have to do so many GI bleed cardiac arrests, and get spat in the face so many times when the logic of it becomes resoundingly clear.

I'm trying to train myself to wear a face mask while intubating.  This is more of a challenge, but just makes sense.


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## Backblast (Apr 16, 2015)

My agency has each new employee custom measured and custom made body armor.  We have a policy in place that dictates when it is to be worn and this policy is stringently enforced not just by field supervisors, but peer enforced as well.


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## Underoath87 (Apr 16, 2015)

I live in Florida, so I would never wear body armor.  If I wanted to wear bulky crap and sweat profusely, I would have gone the fire route rather than single-role EMS. 
Maybe I'd consider it if I worked in a rough urban area someplace cold...


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## gotbeerz001 (Apr 16, 2015)

I work in Oakland. 
I do not wear body armor.


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## Tigger (Apr 16, 2015)

Chewy20 said:


> So, how much crap do you take for wearing safety glasses on every call? lol


I wear safety glasses on most calls (or sunglasses). Our local city fire SOP is that they are worn on every call as well. No one has ever said a word, and I doubt I would care if they did.


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## rescue1 (Apr 17, 2015)

I work in a crappy area of the county and I have never been worried about being shot or stabbed. In my experience, the medics who exclaim how dangerous the area is and how much we need vests are also the ones who try and prove how tough they are by yelling at psych or drunk patients to get them to behave. 

Me, I'm a big softy with my patients, and I've never had issues with violence or non compliance, except with a couple drunks and guys on PCP. 
But that's why we have Ketamine.

If you want to save lives in EMS, stop transporting 95% of patients with lights and sirens, institute some kind of fitness program, and crack down on roadside safety at incidents. Leave the vests to the PD and the military.


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## squirrel15 (Apr 18, 2015)

rescue1 said:


> If you want to save lives in EMS, stop transporting 95% of patients with lights and sirens, institute some kind of fitness program, and crack down on roadside safety at incidents. Leave the vests to the PD and the military.



I agree with this here for the most part. But as with everything else in EMS there are exceptions. The one I see here, is when you have units staging for things such as riots, for the simple reason, you easily could be sent in knowing the scene isn't entirely safe, and also, you never know if that scene may make it's way to you.


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## rescue1 (Apr 18, 2015)

squirrel15 said:


> I agree with this here for the most part. But as with everything else in EMS there are exceptions. The one I see here, is when you have units staging for things such as riots, for the simple reason, you easily could be sent in knowing the scene isn't entirely safe, and also, you never know if that scene may make it's way to you.



Yeah there are certainly exceptions. SWAT medics, riot situations, etc. I was referring more to routine, everyday use.


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## DrParasite (Apr 19, 2015)

you know, this topics comes up more often than you would think...... usually with no real ideas other than "if it isn't safe, I won't go into it, so I don't need a vest."

here is the truth: the vast majority of law enforcement officers will never be shot, never be shot at, and many will go their entire careers never needing to draw their firearm.  And yet, for most of them, when they go out on patrol, they will always wear their vest, and carry their gun.  In fact, most probably don't want to get shot at, but would be happy to be wearing their vests in case they do.

A vest is an insurance policy; you never want to need it, but should you need it, you want it to be there, because it does you no good in the truck when you are inside.

My former employer ran EMS for one of the most dangerous systems in the US, and worked in one of the most dangerous counties in NJ.  I had coworkers who were assaulted on calls, and one crew that witnessed someone getting executed.  I also have picture of ambulances with bullet holes in them.  We were never issued vests, but some people did own their own and wore them under their uniforms.

Would I want vests to be mandated?  absolutely not.  Would I want to be issued a vest, and have the option of wearing it?  if I worked in an urban city, absolutely.  It won't make me superman, and I am not going to enter an unsafe scene.  But scenes can go downhill quickly, just because the cops are there doesn't mean the scene is safe (their idea of scene safety and the EMS definition of scene safety differ a bit), and I want to give myself as much of a chance to go home at the end of every shift.  and if I never need it to protect me, well, I can live with that too.

just my $0.02.


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## Tigger (Apr 19, 2015)

DrParasite said:


> here is the truth: the vast majority of law enforcement officers will never be shot, never be shot at, and many will go their entire careers never needing to draw their firearm.  And yet, for most of them, when they go out on patrol, they will always wear their vest, and carry their gun.  In fact, most probably don't want to get shot at, but would be happy to be wearing their vests in case they do.
> 
> A vest is an insurance policy; you never want to need it, but should you need it, you want it to be there, because it does you no good in the truck when you are inside.



I agree that if you're going to wear one it only makes sense to wear it all the time.

That said, I don't really see much comparison between us and law enforcement. Even though most cops will never be shot at, they are still far, far more likely to have that occur than EMS ever will be because our jobs do not have the same responsibilities.


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## adamNYC (Aug 4, 2015)

I'm going to be working in Bed Stuy should I wear body armor underneath the whole time or have an external one to wear PRN?


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## luke_31 (Aug 4, 2015)

adamNYC said:


> I'm going to be working in Bed Stuy should I wear body armor underneath the whole time or have an external one to wear PRN?


You should wear level 4 body armor at all times. After all you never know when you could get hit by a stray round.


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## adamNYC (Aug 4, 2015)

I aint wearing plates eff outta here. Level II should be fine, concealable under uniform shirt.


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## squirrel15 (Aug 4, 2015)

Just Google gecko45. You'll learn all you need to know.


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## adamNYC (Aug 4, 2015)

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=331411614089&globalID=EBAY-US 

Hows that


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## Flying (Aug 4, 2015)

Not looking like a cop and not pissing anyone off is much cheaper.


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## Tigger (Aug 4, 2015)

How will you ever be in the line of fire if you can't even make it on scene since there is already an ambulance there?


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## Chewy20 (Aug 4, 2015)

-_-


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## Ewok Jerky (Aug 4, 2015)

I also can't stress enough, in addition to body armor, that your ambulance should have installed 5-point restraints for the driver as well as NASCAR helmets and flame retardant suits for those times you need to "run hot" through red lights on your way to buff calls.


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## chaz90 (Aug 4, 2015)

I don't remember who used this as their signature, but I'm shamelessly stealing/paraphrasing it. 

Seatbelts and treadmills would save far more lives in EMS than bulletproof vests. Start with the basics ladies and gents.


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## Carlos Danger (Aug 4, 2015)

chaz90 said:


> I don't remember who used this as their signature, but I'm shamelessly stealing/paraphrasing it.
> 
> Seatbelts and treadmills would save far more lives in EMS than bulletproof vests. Start with the basics ladies and gents.



JPINFV, I believe.


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## adamNYC (Aug 4, 2015)

I have on multiple occasions have been the first EMS on scene, for the record.


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## MonkeyArrow (Aug 4, 2015)

adamNYC said:


> I have on multiple occasions have been the first EMS on scene, for the record.


Listen. You are completely missing the point of what we collectively have attempted to convey to you through the past few threads. Step back. Take a break. Go do something else. Come back to EMS. Reread all of these posts and look at how silly you're making yourself sound. Look, I know that you're new and excited and that's good and all, but you have to channel that energy and spirit productively. Right now, you're not doing yourself, nor your patients a service by being the provider that you think you are.


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## adamNYC (Aug 4, 2015)

Tell that to the 40 vollies in nyc


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## TransportJockey (Aug 4, 2015)

adamNYC said:


> Tell that to the 40 vollies in nyc


The volunteers who don't serve a purpose? Gladly. Let me know how to get a hold of them and I'll gladly tell them to stop playing hobbyist.


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## DesertMedic66 (Aug 4, 2015)

TransportJockey said:


> The volunteers who don't serve a purpose? Gladly. Let me know how to get a hold of them and I'll gladly tell them to stop playing hobbyist.


I'll do a follow up phone call with them


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## epipusher (Aug 4, 2015)

adamNYC said:


> Tell that to the 40 vollies in nyc


Be a trendsetter


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## adamNYC (Aug 4, 2015)

So I spoke to a FDNY EMS friend he says FDNY EMS issues them concealable body armor but they almost never wear it unless ordered to which is rare. External armor is approved for use but has to be out of pocket. 

Anyone who works bedstuy let me know if you would recommend wearing.


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## Jim37F (Aug 4, 2015)

Seems like you just answered your own question....


adamNYC said:


> they almost never wear it unless ordered to


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## chaz90 (Aug 4, 2015)

Dude, everyone has already answered your question. There is nothing more that can be gleaned from beating this dead horse. 

If you want to continue this, please go down to your local volunteer ambulance corps and discuss the merits of buffing calls, lights on POVs, running hot through gridlock, and wearing body armor on dialysis transfers with like minded souls. You're clearly not getting the gratification you desire here.


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## adamNYC (Aug 4, 2015)

My guy is at coney island. I was hoping to hear from guys at bed stuy, east new york, etc

Dont be mean. Im a nice guy newbie that appreciates the community that helps me in my journey to become experienced.


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## TransportJockey (Aug 4, 2015)

adamNYC said:


> My guy is at coney island. I was hoping to hear from guys at bed stuy, east new york, etc
> 
> Dont be mean. Im a nice guy newbie that appreciates the community that helps me in my journey to become experienced.


Except you still act like an idiot and don't actually listen. Nyc ems isnt the end all be all. And they're not, in terms or practice, the best in yhe country by a long shot


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## adamNYC (Aug 4, 2015)

Who says I wanna be the best in the country? I just wanna do NYC 911


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## chaz90 (Aug 4, 2015)

Adam, there is no sense in asking for people's opinions and experiences when you continually choose to ignore the good advice that is offered to you. In every post you have made on this forum, you've come in with an entrenched belief that runs contrary to best practices and evidence. 

Dozens of EMS providers with collectively hundreds of years of experience in EMS and tens of thousands of calls run have explained to you time and time again why we think some of your beliefs represent safety problems to you, the general public, your patients, or all three. We have presented evidence, studies, experiences from your area and across the country. In every case, you have continued to use only your previously held beliefs as justification to dig in even deeper on your original opinions!

I can only speak for myself, but I love having new people use the forum as a resource to ask questions and learn. That's where our value lies. We share information across long distances between people who otherwise would never have had the opportunity to interact. If you genuinely want to learn, as a "newbie" or grizzled veteran from the time of the dinosaurs, we are more than grateful to have you here. If instead though you continue to deliberately disregard everything anyone says that doesn't fall in line with what you already think, I don't know what we can offer you.

Just some friendly advice.


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## adamNYC (Aug 4, 2015)

Hey look i'm entitled to disagree right? I definitely agree with yall on the traffic thing. Thing is, that's what I been doing. I'm not going to persist with sirens past 10-15 seconds. I give up and turn them off. With the buffing, I'm apart of a huge NYC volunteer community that all have similar practices. If I listened to you guys, I might as well quit the volly because I don't want to potentially have an accident, compromising my much-needed experience for a 911 job. As for the armor, I would like to hear from guys in the areas and what they do and if they recommend it. Not too much to ask. Thanks for the help. I would also like to thank whoever is using tapatalk which makes it easier for me to post from my iphone6


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## khaysley (Aug 4, 2015)

adamNYC said:


> If I listened to you guys, I might as well quit the volly because I don't want to potentially have an accident, compromising my much-needed experience for a 911 job



Hey AdamNYC,  I'm by no means a expert or anything my classes don't even start until the 17th but didn't you get experience/hours when you were in school to get your EMT??? In my school we have mandated hours you get while in class... Does these hours not count for you? 

An regards to bullet proof vest. I really feel that it kind of counterproductive to the work environment for the prehospital setting... if patient don't feel you trust them to not hurt you they aren't going to trust you. These is at least in my experience with in the health field working with clients that I would go to their house and provide care and other needs. Even in  the pharmacy that I volunteer at for work based hours these is true. You also won't be able to work very well with one on at least in my experience. My friend's dad is a sheriff and he had all of us come over and try them out while we learned CPR. It wasn't easy to do with them on.


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## luke_31 (Aug 4, 2015)

adamNYC said:


> Hey look i'm entitled to disagree right? I definitely agree with yall on the traffic thing. Thing is, that's what I been doing. I'm not going to persist with sirens past 10-15 seconds. I give up and turn them off. With the buffing, I'm apart of a huge NYC volunteer community that all have similar practices. If I listened to you guys, I might as well quit the volly because I don't want to potentially have an accident, compromising my much-needed experience for a 911 job. As for the armor, I would like to hear from guys in the areas and what they do and if they recommend it. Not too much to ask. Thanks for the help. I would also like to thank whoever is using tapatalk which makes it easier for me to post from my iphone6


I've worked in real bad neighborhoods in Los Angeles and never needed to wear body armor.  The only time I even thought about potentially wearing it was on a few shooting scenes, but when we headed in we ended up being on scene for such a short time that taking the time to strap it on would have taken as long as it took to get the patients to the back of the ambulance. Also just because a neighborhood has a reputation for being rough and dangerous doesn't make it so. Regular people live in these neighborhoods also, not every call is going to be a part of the knife and gun club.


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## adamNYC (Aug 4, 2015)

School I went to only sent me for a 12hour shift at an ER. I had to personally goto FDNY EMS to request 4 eight-hour observation tours. I am so glad FDNY EMS does that.


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## khaysley (Aug 4, 2015)

That just seems strange to me giving someone such little experience before giving them their certification. I don't know different state; different game, I guess. We have to have at least 150-180 hours before we can even test in our class.


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## adamNYC (Aug 4, 2015)

150-180 hours of ambulance rides?


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## khaysley (Aug 5, 2015)

not all ambulance rides but mostly. That really not a lot if you think about it. That is only 15 - ten hours or 30 - five hours. That's nothing really. I had about that many hours for PHB and we did less in there.


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## Flying (Aug 5, 2015)

khaysley said:


> That just seems strange to me giving someone such little experience before giving them their certification. I don't know different state; different game, I guess. We have to have at least 150-180 hours before we can even test in our class.


Your state is in the minority in that regard, consider yourself lucky.


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## Smitty213 (Aug 5, 2015)

Personally I find this most useful on all calls as well.

But really, I have a vest and helmet issued to me. The last time it left my locker was due to a supervisor directly ordering me to at least have it on the truck for a SWAT standby; save your money.


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## Mufasa556 (Aug 5, 2015)

I don't understand why you would need a vest, New York has some of strictest gun laws. 

In all seriousness, I'm not going to knock someone for trying to protect themselves, but will snicker at them when they jump the shark. I Know a guy who carries a Kevlar plate in his clipboard. His reasoning is pure, but I still think it's super silly. 

I was giving report to an ER nurse one night. She stopped me mid report and asked, "Why are you wearing a bullet proof vest?" I quickly explained that I wasn't. I'm just fat. Patient got a good hard chuckle out of that.


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## Deftones (Aug 6, 2015)

As long as you wear your safety vest, you'll be protected from all dangers.


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## Chewy20 (Aug 6, 2015)

adamNYC said:


> Hey look i'm entitled to disagree right? I definitely agree with yall on the traffic thing. Thing is, that's what I been doing. I'm not going to persist with sirens past 10-15 seconds. I give up and turn them off. With the buffing, I'm apart of a huge NYC volunteer community that all have similar practices. If I listened to you guys, I might as well quit the volly because I don't want to potentially have an accident, compromising my much-needed experience for a 911 job. As for the armor, I would like to hear from guys in the areas and what they do and if they recommend it. Not too much to ask. Thanks for the help. I would also like to thank whoever is using tapatalk which makes it easier for me to post from my iphone6



Listen guy. At my previous job, I was shot at on-scene by a fine young gentleman who was later shot by the police. At my new job, we were issued external bullet proof (resistant) vests. Do I wear it? Frick no (would I buy my own? not in a million years). We are required to wear it when we go to a shooting, but even then, there is no point considering there are about 30 police cars there already. Don't feel comfortable about a scene? Don't go in until PD is there. Using your head will keep you a lot safer than some freaking vest.

You have a lot of growing up to do. Which is sad to say to someone who is in their late 20s early 30s.


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## adamNYC (Aug 6, 2015)

Scene safety can change in seconds


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## CALEMT (Aug 6, 2015)

adamNYC said:


> Scene safety can change in seconds



So you're using this as justification to buy a $500+ vest? Really? If you don't feel comfortable at a scene, then leave and call for PD. If you don't feel comfortable at a scene with PD on scene then I'm sorry man, but thats weak. 

All in all you do you man. Spend the money and buy the best tacti-cool high speed vest that money can buy. Then justify pulling it out and wearing it maybe once a year. In EMS you shouldn't even be in the line of fire on a scene of a shooting/ standoff. You're going to be way back out of the action (if there is any). Or are you secretly doing police work while buffing calls?


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## adamNYC (Aug 6, 2015)

I havent made a decision yet im in the research phase. Im going to speak to folks who work in the areas im going to be working in as well.


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## Handsome Robb (Aug 6, 2015)

We've had people shoot at our ambulances and pull guns on crews. I've never felt the need for a bullet resistant vest. People realize we're there to help and the grumpy ones who don't want out help should be left alone until PD shows up to secure the scene.


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## broken stretcher (Aug 6, 2015)

adamNYC said:


> I'm going to be working in Bed Stuy should I wear body armor underneath the whole time or have an external one to wear PRN?



You should be wearing plates and a balletic helmet at all times. Also steel plates on the sides and underneath your ambulance should be welded on. IEDs are the number one killer of EMTs in bed stuy. Also scan the rooftops for RPG teams and watch your six at all times


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## Gurby (Aug 6, 2015)

Chewy20 said:


> Using your head will keep you a lot safer than some freaking vest.



This reminds me of a skating video I watched where the guy addressed the fact that he doesn't always wear a helmet:

"I've been criticized for not wearing a helmet every time I skate, but I have never been criticized for the judgments that have put me at real risk.  I guess some people are looking for that magic bullet - a device instead of a procedural and behavioral structure.  When in doubt, chicken out!"


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## adamNYC (Aug 7, 2015)

I personally like the LBT 6049 with ceramic plates and Opscore ballistic helmet


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## Jim37F (Aug 7, 2015)

Wear a vest with plates for all 12-24 hours a shift every shift in the summer and after a couple days let us know how much your enthusiasm for wearing an extra 20-30 pounds (and that's extremely light for a hard plate vest btw) when chances are not a single round even comes your way.


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## AtlasFlyer (Aug 7, 2015)

I've worked in the worst parts of town (large urban 911 agency) there are to work in and I've never, ever felt the need for a vest. A sweatshirt maybe, as it gets kinda cold sometimes, but not a bullet proof vest. If someone wore that to work here they'd be laughed at. 

Traffic is a far, far greater threat to our safety than the possibility of being shot. Falling down stairs, stepping in holes in yards, slipping on ice.. all greater possibilities than being shot.


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