# EMS and Motorcycle accidents



## Enginetech88 (May 22, 2012)

I have spent alot of time on this forum and am now looking for some help. I have been an EMT for a few years. In the past few months I have noticed that the EMS, fire/ rescue, and first responders in my area are very under trained when it comes to responding to a motorcycle accident.

I am working at putting together a training presentation for first responders about motorcycle accidents. This will include specific dangers found on and around a bike, how to shut down a bike, common injuries and their treatment, helmet removal, and proper etiquette when dealing with motorcycle riders. I'm hoping that you folks will have some good pointers and things to include and real life experiances we can learn from. Also if any of you have recommended videos on helmet removal, or on this subject please include it. I greatly appreciate all the help!!! 

Josh


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## bigbaldguy (May 22, 2012)

Enginetech88 said:


> I have spent alot of time on this forum and am now looking for some help. I have been an EMT for a few years. In the past few months I have noticed that the EMS, fire/ rescue, and first responders in my area are very under trained when it comes to responding to a motorcycle accident.
> 
> I am working at putting together a training presentation for first responders about motorcycle accidents. This will include specific dangers found on and around a bike, how to shut down a bike, common injuries and their treatment, helmet removal, and proper etiquette when dealing with motorcycle riders. I'm hoping that you folks will have some good pointers and things to include and real life experiances we can learn from. Also if any of you have recommended videos on helmet removal, or on this subject please include it. I greatly appreciate all the help!!!
> 
> Josh



I'd be interested to know what you mean by proper etiquette? Are you referring to dealing with MC's or just riders in general. I've only got a few motorcycle accidents under my belt but they were basically treated in a fashion similar to ejection injuries. Helmet removal would be a good thing to cover, and also how to turn a bike off might be a good topic. I've seen a bike with the wheel spinning catch when it was lifted off of a rider and flip completely over, no injuries but could have been bad.


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## Shishkabob (May 22, 2012)

Enginetech88 said:


> . This will include specific dangers found on and around a bike


  The car driver that caused the accident



> how to shut down a bike


  Most modern bikes have a 'tilt sensor' (actually called a bank angle sensor) that detects when a motorcycle is, for a lack of a better way of putting it, no longer upright.  When this happens, the bike automatically kills the engine.

On top of that, most motorcycles have the same basic handlebar layout, with electrical controls (such as horn, turn signals) being on the left and engine controls on the right.  Look for a red switch on the right side, and that's the kill switch.  










> common injuries and their treatment


 You treat the injuries like you would any other time the injury appears outside of an unplanned dismount.




> helmet removal


  Most helmets include a single chin strap.  Some of the higher end helmets (which I don't expect non-riders to recognize) also have inflatable cheekpads which you should deflate to make removal easier.



> and proper etiquette when dealing with motorcycle riders


  Our gear is expensive.  Don't cut unless absolutely necessary, and if you must cut, attempt along a seam.  A track suit can cost several thousand dollars.  Gloves and boots can be several hundred.  Don't make their day worse by going gung-ho with your sheers.

Motorcycle riders LOVE their bikes.  They might ask how their bike is, so be ready.




> I'm hoping that you folks will have some good pointers and things to include and real life experiances we can learn from.



If the rider is awake, check to see if they had a passenger.  Not good to assume it's just one person and leave someone else in a ditch 50 feet away.


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## Tigger (May 22, 2012)

Enginetech88 said:


> I have spent alot of time on this forum and am now looking for some help. I have been an EMT for a few years. In the past few months I have noticed that the EMS, fire/ rescue, and first responders in my area are very under trained when it comes to responding to a motorcycle accident.
> 
> I am working at putting together a training presentation for first responders about motorcycle accidents. This will include specific dangers found on and around a bike, how to shut down a bike, common injuries and their treatment, helmet removal, and proper etiquette when dealing with motorcycle riders. I'm hoping that you folks will have some good pointers and things to include and real life experiances we can learn from. Also if any of you have recommended videos on helmet removal, or on this subject please include it. I greatly appreciate all the help!!!
> 
> Josh



Helmet removal is probably one of those skills that people are a bit rusty on since many will not have done it since their class. Personally I think it should always be a two person job unless there is emergent airway issue, so if you have people showing up on scene alone (first responders, fly car, etc), they do not need to be removing a helmet until there are more hands available. 

Shutting down a bike is a good idea, I have no idea how to do that. Both times I've been on scene for one it was already off. As for etiquette I'm not sure what you mean?


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## bigbaldguy (May 22, 2012)

Linuss said:


> The car driver that caused the accident
> 
> Most modern bikes have a 'tilt sensor' (actually called a bank angle sensor) that detects when a motorcycle is, for a lack of a better way of putting it, no longer upright.  When this happens, the bike automatically kills the engine.
> 
> ...



Last two are very good points. Cutting gear hadn't occurred to me.


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## workworkwork (May 22, 2012)

you would maintain c spine, but a little differently minding the gap the helmet creates.

as for the motorcyclists, immobilization of entire body will be that much more important considering they were thrown somewhere off their bike. not like a car passenger with airbags, a seat-belt, and in a sitting position.

side note, we transported a patient to rehab today that was in a motorcycle accident (he was on the bike) he had several fractures, several avulsions, too many abrasions to count, and a subdural hematoma. in other words, don't buy a motorcycle.


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## Shishkabob (May 22, 2012)

workworkwork said:


> you would maintain c spine, but a little differently minding the gap the helmet creates.


  What gap?  That helmet is coming off once I get on scene.  These aren't football helmets where we tend to keep them on because of the elevation that shoulder pads create.  Their head is at an odd angle due to the thickness of the helmet and their shoulders touching the ground.



> as for the motorcyclists, immobilization of entire body will be that much more important considering they were thrown somewhere off their bike. not like a car passenger with airbags, a seat-belt, and in a sitting position.


  Disagree.  I've been tossed off a motorcycle going 40ish and left with bruised ribs.  I've seen people in car accidents at lower speeds with compound fractures.  

Assess the patient.



> side note, we transported a patient to rehab today that was in a motorcycle accident (he was on the bike) he had several fractures, several avulsions, too many abrasions to count, and a subdural hematoma. in other words, don't buy a motorcycle.



Most accidents involving motorcycles are either due to stupid car drivers violating the riders right-of-way, or a drunk rider.  If all left hand turns required a green arrow, I guarantee motorcycle fatalities would decrease.


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## workworkwork (May 22, 2012)

Linuss said:


> What gap?  That helmet is coming off once I get on scene.  These aren't football helmets where we tend to keep them on because of the elevation that shoulder pads create.  Their head is at an odd angle due to the thickness of the helmet and their shoulders touching the ground.
> 
> Disagree.  I've been tossed off a motorcycle going 40ish and left with bruised ribs.  I've seen people in car accidents at lower speeds with compound fractures.
> 
> ...


was your motive to disagree with everything?

if your supine with a motorcycle helmet on, your neck is pushed forward much like a pediatrics as many helmets, not all, become thicker towards the back and top, therefore if you were to remove a helmet without holding correctly, someones head could drop as much as four inches. i'm talking about the gap between the head and the ground.

as for your experience, i couldn't care any less. if someone is thrown off a motorcylcle, i'm immobilizing everything i can, just because YOU got lucky doesn't mean i'm overlooking anything. do you hear yourself? next time i have a car accident i'll just tell my patient when i was in a car accident like they were i was fine and i wont take precautions. hows that sound?

as for your last little comment, i was making a joke, but besides either of our points, the simple fact is motorcyclists have a whole hell of a lot more chance of dying or getting seriously injured.


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## Enginetech88 (May 22, 2012)

This is exactly what I am looking for. Great information! Keep it coming.

 As far as etiquette; yes dealing with MC's, respecting the very expensive gear, not cutting through a patch if it can be avoided, not acting like the rider is an "organ donor". As many people use this term, it makes riders feel like they will get sub standard care because "they know they are doing a risky hobby."

Linuss.... some great points I will definatly be including!

Thanks!


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## flhtci01 (May 22, 2012)

Enginetech88 said:


> I have spent alot of time on this forum and am now looking for some help. I have been an EMT for a few years. In the past few months I have noticed that the EMS, fire/ rescue, and first responders in my area are very under trained when it comes to responding to a motorcycle accident.
> 
> I am working at putting together a training presentation for first responders about motorcycle accidents. This will include specific dangers found on and around a bike, how to shut down a bike, common injuries and their treatment, helmet removal, and proper etiquette when dealing with motorcycle riders. I'm hoping that you folks will have some good pointers and things to include and real life experiances we can learn from. Also if any of you have recommended videos on helmet removal, or on this subject please include it. I greatly appreciate all the help!!!




What's your location?  ABATE of Iowa has sponsored Two Wheel Trauma training.  I have coordinated this training in the past. Slider, Anita and Frank have been doing it for years and are very knowledgeable.  Slider has taught this and Accident Scene Management across the country.

Wayne starts off the day by telling about a van crossing the center line and killing four of his friends on impact.   

This is followed responder hazards associated with motorcycles, environmetal considerations, spinal immobilization, helmet removal considerations and more.

They offer EMT and Nursing continuing ed for the course.  

The link to ABATE of Iowa's page http://www.abateiowa.org/two_wheel_trauma.html

Two Wheel Trauma brochure http://www.abateiowa.org/pdf/two_wheel_trauma_brochure.pdf


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## Shishkabob (May 22, 2012)

workworkwork said:


> was your motive to disagree with everything?


  My motive was to hand out education, experience, and information.  What was yours?



> if your supine with a motorcycle helmet on, your neck is pushed forward much like a pediatrics


  That is precisely what I said, is it not?



> as for your experience, i couldn't care any less. if someone is thrown off a motorcylcle, i'm immobilizing everything i can, just because YOU got lucky doesn't mean i'm overlooking anything. do you hear yourself?


  So, since I had no neck or back pain and was otherwise unharmed, you'd still do a complete immobilization?  






> as for your last little comment, i was making a joke


  Sorry, I must have missed the joke.  Was it your severely injured patient that was funny, or the way that he got there?


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## Enginetech88 (May 22, 2012)

I am from NY. I will look into those programs. Maybe they can get me part of their presentations so I can teach the same principles here. The two wheel trauma is pretty much the same idea of what I want to do with my program. Thank you!


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## workworkwork (May 22, 2012)

Linuss said:


> My motive was to hand out education, experience, and information.  What was yours?
> 
> That is precisely what I said, is it not?
> 
> ...



My motive was the help the OP.

As for the helmet, you said "What gap? That helmet is coming off once I get on scene." Then referenced football players, which helped no one.

As for immobolization, yes I agree with you, assess, but if I get the call to respond to motorcycle vs. anything, the first thing that pops into my mind is cervical collar and longboard.

As for my joke, it was "in other words, don't by a motorcycle" try reading more thoroughly, i hear it helps!


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## Tigger (May 22, 2012)

workworkwork said:


> As for immobolization, yes I agree with you, assess, but if I get the call to respond to motorcycle vs. anything, the first thing that pops into my mind is cervical collar and longboard.



The first thing that should pop into your head is that mechanism of injury is an incredibly poor predictor of injury. 

Assess your patient and determine if they need spinal motion restriction. While you might be holding manual c-spine while an assessment is done, this does not mean you have to board the patient if there is no indication to do so. Will many of these patients require it? Yes, especially because of the likely presence of distracting injuries. However, if you're someone like Linuss that wears proper gear while riding, there is a fairly good chance you won't be seriously hurt if you leave your bike.


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## workworkwork (May 22, 2012)

Tigger said:


> The first thing that should pop into your head is that mechanism of injury is an incredibly poor predictor of injury.
> 
> Assess your patient and determine if they need spinal motion restriction. While you might be holding manual c-spine while an assessment is done, this does not mean you have to board the patient if there is no indication to do so. Will many of these patients require it? Yes, especially because of the likely presence of distracting injuries. However, if you're someone like Linuss that wears proper gear while riding, there is a fairly good chance you won't be seriously hurt if you leave your bike.


I'm talking about when I get the call. When I'm sitting in my ambulance and they radio there's MVA with a motorcycle the FIRST ORGANIC THOUGHT is c spine and longboard. When you get to the scene that can all change, but those are the two pieces of equipment I would think about using first ON THE WAY to the call.

As for gear while riding, I guess I've seen way to many people cruising around without anything. There are parts of Boston and south of Boston that have pretty active motorcycle gangs and just morons with pants down to their knees going 80mph shirtless. Theres a town called mattapan everyone calls murderpan, just sayin.


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## crazycajun (May 22, 2012)

workworkwork said:


> was your motive to disagree with everything?
> 
> if your supine with a motorcycle helmet on, your neck is pushed forward much like a pediatrics as many helmets, not all, become thicker towards the back and top, therefore if you were to remove a helmet without holding correctly, someones head could drop as much as four inches. i'm talking about the gap between the head and the ground.
> 
> ...



I think the point Linuss was making that a helmet needs to be removed ASAP if possible. You also cannot put a person in a correct C-spine position with a helmet on. You also claim that you will immobilize any PT that is thrown off and I am wondering why. What if that person is walking around or combative when you try to board him? Lastly. I get on a ton of members here for disrespecting Newbies like yourself. I always try to remind them to treat everyone with respect. Please remember that is a two way street and not bash people that are simply giving you input. Linuss was not rude or offensive however your comments were just the opposite.


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## workworkwork (May 22, 2012)

crazycajun said:


> I think the point Linuss was making that a helmet needs to be removed ASAP if possible. You also cannot put a person in a correct C-spine position with a helmet on. You also claim that you will immobilize any PT that is thrown off and I am wondering why. What if that person is walking around or combative when you try to board him? Lastly. I get on a ton of members here for disrespecting Newbies like yourself. I always try to remind them to treat everyone with respect. Please remember that is a two way street and not bash people that are simply giving you input. Linuss was not rude or offensive however your comments were just the opposite.


Alright, fair enough. I've probably experienced too many forums with trolling know it alls. Never join a guitar forum.

When c spining a pateitn with a motorcycle helmet on, my practicals (in class, not in certification) included a two scenarios. A two man, and a three man operation of holding c spine while removing the helmet, measuring and applying collar etc.

As for "boarding everyone" I'm exaggerating, I'm just trying to make the point that it's one of the biggest concerns. I've transported several MVA patients and have responded to a few myself, every single one was gnarly.

I'll also point out in the "two wheel trauma" link, one of two pictures is a picture of someone being boarded.


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## Shishkabob (May 22, 2012)

workworkwork said:


> they radio there's MVA with a motorcycle the FIRST ORGANIC THOUGHT is c spine and longboard.



My first thought is whether or not I'd be able to finish my food before I get to the call.




workworkwork said:


> Alright, fair enough. I've probably experienced too many forums with trolling know it alls.



A Paramedic who personally knows and has worked with a fair number of members on this forum, with 7,700 posts and 3.5 years on a forum who makes it a point that they don't like trolls / insulting members.  I'd like to think I've proven that I'm not a troll :blink:


But yes, I do know it all.


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## CANDawg (May 22, 2012)

Linuss said:


> Most accidents involving motorcycles are either due to stupid car drivers violating the riders right-of-way, or a drunk rider.  If all left hand turns required a green arrow, I guarantee motorcycle fatalities would decrease.



I STRONGLY disagree. I regularly see people on crotch rockets driving irrationally, excessively speeding, weaving in traffic, and the like. There seems to be this idea that just because they CAN fit, means they SHOULD. Just last week I had a middle aged guy, no helmet, ride his sport bike between my car and another, right up the lane dividing line. Probably had 4-5 inches of clearance on either side.

I know this isn't all bikers, and I admit that I can't remember the last time I've seen a dude on a Harley acting like that, but there seems to be a mentality that goes along with sport bikes and their owners.


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## Shishkabob (May 22, 2012)

dbo789 said:


> I STRONGLY disagree.


  Disagree all you want, the studies on the topic back it up, from the original 1981 Hurt Report, to the more recent ones released on the matter of motorcycle crashes.  



> I know this isn't all bikers, and I admit that I can't remember the last time I've seen a dude on a Harley acting like that, but there seems to be a mentality that goes along with sport bikes and their owners.



Granted, this part is going to be as anecdotal as your post, but speaking from a professional standpoint as a Paramedic, and a personal view as a motorcycle rider who rides said 'crotch rocket', sportbike riders tend to be the safer rides.

Sure, you won't see too many cruiser ("Harley") riders popping wheelies and weaving through traffic, BUT you are more likely to see a sportbike rider wearing ATLEAST a helmet, if not a full contingent of protective gear, than you are to see a cruiser rider wearing the same gear.  Next time you are out driving, keep tab of how many sportbikes vs cruiser have helmets, jackets, suits, gloves, boots, etc etc, and I can all but guarantee that sportbike riders will be in the majority.

On top of that, sportbikes are built for high performance, built for quick turns, and built for quick stopping.



I ride a sportbike.  I don't ride like an idiot.  I ride with friends who ride on sportbikes, and they don't do it either.  If we have someone join our group and they try that, we don't ride with them.  There are sportbike groups in the DFW area who do the same thing.


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## CANDawg (May 22, 2012)

Linuss said:


> I ride a sportbike.  I don't ride like an idiot.  I ride with friends who ride on sportbikes, and they don't do it either.  If we have someone join our group and they try that, we don't ride with them.  There are sportbike groups in the DFW area who do the same thing.



My goal wasn't to imply that all sport bike owners are like that, but I do still think that there is a high percentage of people that choose sport bikes specifically so they can experience the 'thrill' of taking chances on the road. 

If you purchase a bike because of its "high performance", "quick turns", and "quick stopping", you're likely going to want to use those features. I think there's just an unfortunate number of riders that think the appropriate place to do that is in the middle of a busy freeway, rather than somewhere a bit more purpose-built. (Same could be said for owners of sports cars, by the way. Why do you think insurance is way more for a $50,000 sports car than a high end $50,000 minivan?)

Ultimately, I think that it motorcycling licensing should include a mandatory review of the increased dangers. Plain and simple, you're not as safe on a motorcycle as you are in a car. Perhaps a few photos of some severe trauma caused by bike accidents would spur some people to protect themselves by thinking a bit more about how they drive.


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## Shishkabob (May 22, 2012)

dbo789 said:


> If you purchase a bike because of its "high performance", "quick turns", and "quick stopping"


  So why don't you drive a semi?  It's safer than a car, isn't it?




> you're likely going to want to use those features.


  You can use those feature, even on a public road, and still ride safely and legally.


If someone drives a 2-door coupe car, do you automatically think they are a speedfreak street racer who swerves in and out of traffic?  Because that's how you're labeling sportbike riders just because of what they ride.


I find this kind of bike sexy.  I love how it looks.  I don't want to buy a bike that I think is ugly.  It just so happens that it's a "crotch rocket" but that doesn't mean I will ride all the way to work doing a wheelie.


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## CANDawg (May 22, 2012)

Linuss said:


> I find this kind of bike sexy.  I love how it looks.  I don't want to buy a bike that I think is ugly.  It just so happens that it's a "crotch rocket" but that doesn't mean I will ride all the way to work doing a wheelie.



I agree. I'm just trying to walk the fine line between not labelling ALL sports bike owners as 'speed crazed freakshows', while still pointing out that those who DO want to drive irrationally will be significantly more likely to purchase a sports bike than a harley.


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## workworkwork (May 22, 2012)

I remember seeing a 60 minutes thing once, or some evening news special where they did a feature on different companies trying to implement airbags in motorcycles. It looked more like a horrific circus show instead, where dummies were being catapulted away.

I'm hoping they'll improve on this, as below looks more promising:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phPUFWJpKsU


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## Tigger (May 22, 2012)

workworkwork said:


> I'm talking about when I get the call. When I'm sitting in my ambulance and they radio there's MVA with a motorcycle the FIRST ORGANIC THOUGHT is c spine and longboard. When you get to the scene that can all change, but those are the two pieces of equipment I would think about using first ON THE WAY to the call.
> 
> As for gear while riding, I guess I've seen way to many people cruising around without anything. There are parts of Boston and south of Boston that have pretty active motorcycle gangs and just morons with pants down to their knees going 80mph shirtless. Theres a town called mattapan everyone calls murderpan, just sayin.



I guess I've never really bothered with the whole first though beyond how the heck do I get to said location. But maybe that's just me. 

Also I don't quite get the point about southie and mattapan (which is a neighborhood, not a town) and motorcycles. The majority of murders in mattapan have nothing to do with motorcycles or the gangs that sometimes ride them. I'd also bet that there are comparatively few motorcycle accidents in these neighborhoods considering the socioeconomic status of their residents and the fact that few non-residents who are not in ambulances (like me oops) tend to steer clear of these areas.

Anyway back to the regularly scheduled thread.


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## workworkwork (May 22, 2012)

Tigger said:


> I guess I've never really bothered with the whole first though beyond how the heck do I get to said location. But maybe that's just me.
> 
> Also I don't quite get the point about southie and mattapan (which is a neighborhood, not a town) and motorcycles. The majority of murders in mattapan have nothing to do with motorcycles or the gangs that sometimes ride them. I'd also bet that there are comparatively few motorcycle accidents in these neighborhoods considering the socioeconomic status of their residents and the fact that few non-residents who are not in ambulances (like me oops) tend to steer clear of these areas.
> 
> Anyway back to the regularly scheduled thread.


I wasn't saying there are more motorcycle accidents I'm saying the chances are higher and more often than not are associated with more deaths.

As far as murders in mattapan, its a lot of gang violence... Gangs who ride motorcycles..

Thanks for making the neighborhood clarification, that was necessary.

Edit: I don't remember mentioning Southie at all.. I said "south of boston". Southie is being overrun by yuppies lately, for which I've yet to see a motorcycle. Once again, read.


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## mycrofft (May 23, 2012)

On scene, look about as you approach the victim. One thing riders have happen which car riders don't (often) is bodily contact with external items like tree limbs, fence wire, mail boxes. I stopped off duty for a guy who hit the heavy steel guy wire running from an anchor in the ground to help stabilize a power pole on a curve. It struck him from anterior right lower ribcage to left shoulder, then struck his chin as he fell backwards while continuing forwards, and went under with the bike. With leathers, you may not see an abrasion and the bruise may take a while to appear, so palpate, auscultate.


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## Tigger (May 23, 2012)

My more useful contribution to this thread OP in that many motorcycle MVCs are apt to leave their patients in the middle of the road or in travel lanes. Perhaps emphasizing proper rig positioning, the use of traffic control devices, and wearing those safety vests that everyone always seem to forget might be useful for your presentation. Working in the middle lane of a freeway is bad news bears until lanes can properly be closed...



workworkwork said:


> I wasn't saying there are more motorcycle accidents I'm saying the chances are higher and more often than not are associated with more deaths.
> 
> As far as murders in mattapan, its a lot of gang violence... Gangs who ride motorcycles..
> 
> ...



If you're going to call me out you could at least be accurate. Stop trying to make an argument that doesn't exist. Crappy neighborhoods do not see a statistically significant increase in motorcycle related MVCs, especially in Boston where there is a very insignificant motorcycle gang problem when compared to the rest of the violent crime that takes place in the city's seedy neighborhoods.

I misread south of boston for south boston, sue me. In any case if you're looking for where I suspect the majority of the motorcycle MVCs occur in Massachusetts you would likely find that to be south of Boston on any of the major highways, simply because that's where the majority of high speed highway traffic is.


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## phideux (May 23, 2012)

Where I am we have 3 MC rallies a year, pretty big ones, we are in between 2 of them right now. From what I've seen, we just finished Harley week, most of those folks are decked out in their leather, don't drive like idiots, and the majority of the accidents tend to be car vs MC, the majority of the time it is the car that gets a failure to yield ticket. Tomorrow starts "black bike week", these people are mostly on sport bikes, their attire is usually shorts and flip-flops for the guys, short skirts, bikinis, and spandex for the girls. The majority of accidents with this crowd is usually due to speed, showing off and stupidity. This is road rash weekend for us. We had one girl last year that went off the back when her boyfriend popped a wheelie at about 50mph, she road rashed the hell out of her butt, flipped over and ground a nipple off. Ouch.
We are a no helmet state and I've seen both sides of the coin, it appears that a helmet won't do much in a very high speed accident, but in a low speed accident it can mean the difference between no injury with a helmet, to major avulsions, head trauma without one.
As far as the boarding/immobilizing, every wreck is it's own situation, proper patient assessment will dictate treatment.
I also ride, I have a 1975 Harley, a Goldwing, and I'm saving towards a Ducati SS. I always wear a helmet, don't ride like an idiot, and cover as much skin a possible just in case. I've been down once, shredded the back of a leather jacket, and cracked a helmet, I got bruised up, but walked away from it.


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## nwhitney (May 23, 2012)

Linuss said:


> I find this kind of bike sexy.  I love how it looks.  I don't want to buy a bike that I think is ugly.  It just so happens that it's a "crotch rocket" but that doesn't mean I will ride all the way to work doing a wheelie.



From one rider to another I completely agree with you.  

That Ninja is a very SEXY bike.


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## Enginetech88 (May 23, 2012)

I never thought about the roadway/ traffic control issue. Obviously people are much less protected. Thanks everyone for the good input. We got off topic a little bit but everything is helping mold this presentation to be better and better. I greatly appreciate it!!


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## Flightorbust (May 23, 2012)

Ok I didnt read the whole thing because it seemed to be getting into a pissing match. But I do have a few points and I will say that I ride a "crotch rocket".

Most of what I saw that linuss posted is correct. You need to get that helmet off. There are a few helmet that the face mask will lift off of but most are solid. If you leave a bike jacket on your patient you need to remember that the jacket has padding and therefore you may need to pad gaps.

Im not aware of what bikes have the lay over kill on it so be ready to turn off using the red button on the right side of the handle bars.

I know personally if you cut off my gear when it didnt need to be I will be mad. Simply by cutting the chin strap you make the helmet unusable. To give you guys an idea of the cost of the gear I ride with limited gear on and I have over $500 worth of gear (Jacket $250 Helmet $200+ Gloves $50) Im not saying dont cut it off. Im saying that only cut it if you need to and try to go for seams.

Just because its a "sport" bike doesnt mean I ride aggressively. Im more comfortable in the riding position of a sport bike then on a cruiser. I also like to take advantage of the canyons around me. So please dont assume that because they are on a sport bike they rode like an idiot.


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## bigbaldguy (May 23, 2012)

Deep breath everyone.
Think before you post and lets get back to the original ops question please.

Thanks


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## Tigger (May 24, 2012)

Flightorbust said:


> I know personally if you cut off my gear when it didnt need to be I will be mad. Simply by cutting the chin strap you make the helmet unusable. To give you guys an idea of the cost of the gear I ride with limited gear on and I have over $500 worth of gear (Jacket $250 Helmet $200+ Gloves $50) Im not saying dont cut it off. Im saying that only cut it if you need to and try to go for seams.



Heck if someone cuts off my favorite tee shirt when it didn't need to happen I'd be pissed. I put myself in a fair bit of pain to help an EMS crew take my ski jacket, it's worth too much to me unless I'm unconscious.


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## RemoveTheFear (May 24, 2012)

One thing I have learned from personal experience is that sliding nylon gets hot. 

Aggressive application of front brake and newly painted left turn arrow did not mix well. Walked away unscathed except for a nice little burn right where I slid. 

Aerostich, the maker of my jacket, suggests wearing a full coverage of cotton under the jacket/pants just for that reason. I, of course, didn't read that tip until after the fact.


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## Veneficus (May 24, 2012)

Actually I have found that most motorcycle injuries are from people who do not know how to ride.

Who do not have/wear the proper gear.

Who do absolutely stupipd things like ride between stopped cars or try to "sneak" between a car and the curb to make a turn. 

But I also agree, you should assess the patient before you go cutting anything.

This also holds true for the rodeo people.


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## Handsome Robb (May 24, 2012)

I'm wondering how a town with a high homicide rate was brought up into this discussion? Talk about outta left field.

Anecdotal but we run more Harley/cruiser type accidents than sport bike accidents. We have a couple very active MCs here although they have been quiet since the shootout during the motorcycle week here last year. 

I'm on Linuss' side on this one. Don't label someone by if they ride or what they ride. It's wrong and makes you sound like a total tool but I won't point fingers.

The helmet is coming off as soon as I get another set of hands unless, like someone else said, there's an emergent airway issue. 

Someone mentioned it but didn't go farther with it...scene protection by ways of flares and truck positioning is right at the top of things that need to be addressed as soon as you arrive on scene. What's the first thing they monkey trained us all to say? "Scene Safety". Now the trick is to position yourself and other responding units to protect the scene and deflect any impacts away from personnel while still having good access to your truck and loading the patient and having a good route of egress.


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## Tigger (May 24, 2012)

NVRob said:


> I'm wondering how a town with a high homicide rate was brought up into this discussion? Talk about outta left field.


Boston does not even have a high homicide rate, some people just want to pretend that the Departed and The Town are 100% accurate depictions of the city.



> Anecdotal but we run more Harley/cruiser type accidents than sport bike accidents. We have a couple very active MCs here although they have been quiet since the shootout during the motorcycle week here last year.
> 
> I'm on Linuss' side on this one. Don't label someone by if they ride or what they ride. It's wrong and makes you sound like a total tool but I won't point fingers.
> 
> ...



While I said that I would remove a helmet alone if there was an emergent airway issues, if you (plural) arrive with a two person crew that helmet should be off in a very short amount of time while maintaining c-spine.  Proper helmet removal, if practiced, is not that difficult of a skill. A proper assessment is impossible with the helmet on anyway, so getting it off should probably the first patient centered priority. 

As to expand on the scene safety issue, many ambulances are not going to have traffic control devices available. Given this, block as much of the scene as possible with the ambulance if you are the first arriving unit and get on the horn for some help. If there are other units on scene it would be preferable to pull ahead of the scene so that you have some protection while loading the patient. I know I already said it but where the damn safety vest too. I always hear people say "if they don't see the shiny ambulance with the flashy lights how will they see my vest?" I hate that answer. You'll never know if the vest saved you from getting hit because, you know, you didn't actually get hit! Do you think the driver is really going to pull over after a near miss and explain how he almost nailed you?!?!?! No, so wear the thing.


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## Bullets (May 24, 2012)

We have been seeing an increase in motorcycle riders and accidents...if this is sure to the decreased cost of fuel and insurance or the rise of motorcycles I dont know. However I have cut of gear, and I will do it again, despite the protestations of the riders. If I need to visualize an area due to a complaint of pain, I will cut, does not matter if its jeans or crash pants.

 Ultimatley the hospital is going to cut the clothes of the minute they hit the table, and they don't care about cost of clothing

Our trauma criteria is pretty progressive, but most accidents involving a motorbike fulfill at least one of them. The trauma docs are quick with the scissors, and they have made it public knowledge they want trauma naked if you are bringing them a patient


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## Veneficus (May 24, 2012)

Bullets said:


> We have been seeing an increase in motorcycle riders and accidents...if this is sure to the decreased cost of fuel and insurance or the rise of motorcycles I dont know. However I have cut of gear, and I will do it again, despite the protestations of the riders. If I need to visualize an area due to a complaint of pain, I will cut, does not matter if its jeans or crash pants.
> 
> Ultimatley the hospital is going to cut the clothes of the minute they hit the table, and they don't care about cost of clothing
> 
> Our trauma criteria is pretty progressive, but most accidents involving a motorbike fulfill at least one of them. The trauma docs are quick with the scissors, and they have made it public knowledge they want trauma naked if you are bringing them a patient



Sounds like more of an ego thing than actually a medical need.

The purpose of medicine is to help people, not to cost them money without benefit or need.

For the actual riders out there could I ask a question?

If you crash your bike can you claim your safety gear on insurance as part of the loss?


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## Shishkabob (May 24, 2012)

Veneficus said:


> If you crash your bike can you claim your safety gear on insurance as part of the loss?



Most insurance companies have a $3000 minimum "additional accessories" part that is always part of the policy, and it may or may not cover safety gear.  It's a toss up if there's no counterpart to the crash.


If you're hit by an idiot in a car, you bet the insurance company is coughing up for the safety gear to try to avoid a lawsuit.  However, leather is resilient and can often stand several get-offs without any major repairs needed.   Helmets on the other hand, need to be replaced after its first drop, even if it's from your kitchen table to the floor.


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## Bullets (May 24, 2012)

Veneficus said:


> Sounds like more of an ego thing than actually a medical need.
> 
> The purpose of medicine is to help people, not to cost them money without benefit or need.
> 
> ...



IDK what the trauma docs issues are, they say that they want to do a full visual assesment of all trauma patients, and they do actually do so

I only cut to expose areas that are in pain or I suspect an injury based on the myriad of evidence.


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## Impulse (May 24, 2012)

Linuss said:


> Helmets on the other hand, need to be replaced after its first drop, even if it's from your kitchen table to the floor.



Ding ding ding.

Scary how many people do not know that. Or refuse to abid by it, because they really don't want to replace their Shoei or Arai.

I would like to see a statistic of how many gixxer riders go down, compared to others. Every squid I have scene riding, is more than likely on a gixxer 750, or even more startling, a liter bike.


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## Flightorbust (May 24, 2012)

Impulse said:


> Ding ding ding.
> 
> Scary how many people do not know that. Or refuse to abid by it, because they really don't want to replace their Shoei or Arai.
> 
> I would like to see a statistic of how many gixxer riders go down, compared to others. Every squid I have scene riding, is more than likely on a gixxer 750, or even more startling, a liter bike.



Squid? Are you military? Also I dont believe that one brand wrecks more then another. I actually applaud those that know they want more power then the 600 provides but dont want the litre bike therefore they choose the 750. Now out of the main 4 Suzuki I believe is the only one that makes the 750. Is there any tests that conclusively show a helmet goes bad after being dropped from X feet? Im asking more for personal knowledge.


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## Shishkabob (May 24, 2012)

Flightorbust said:


> Squid? Are you military?


  Squid is sportbike slang.  See picture.


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## DrParasite (May 24, 2012)

Bullets said:


> Ultimatley the hospital is going to cut the clothes of the minute they hit the table, and they don't care about cost of clothing
> 
> Our trauma criteria is pretty progressive, but most accidents involving a motorbike fulfill at least one of them. The trauma docs are quick with the scissors, and they have made it public knowledge they want trauma naked if you are bringing them a patient


Damn, he beat me to it.  or maybe we just know and work with the same trauma doctors.


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## Brandon O (May 24, 2012)

More than other MVCs, try to reconstruct the kinematic sequence. Cars are basically big blocks you can toss together... but between the bike, the road, the other vehicles/obstacles/people, and the rider and his many bits and pieces, there are far more variables here. Did he lay down the bike or did he strike the obstacle upright? If upright, what angle, was he crushed? If he put it down, how did he hit the ground? And so forth.

One thing I have not been able to unpack the tea leaves on is the correlation between motorcycle damage and rider injury. Too confusing.


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## Flightorbust (May 24, 2012)

Linuss said:


> Squid is sportbike slang.  See picture.



Ok, I live in a military town and a squid is usually a member of the navy. We call those guys organ donors.


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## Akulahawk (May 24, 2012)

Flightorbust said:


> Ok, I live in a military town and a squid is usually a member of the navy. We call those guys organ donors.


In the instance of a pretty good wreck, those guys would be lucky to be organ donors.


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## Bullets (May 24, 2012)

DrParasite said:


> Damn, he beat me to it.  or maybe we just know and work with the same trauma doctors.



probably, Big Bobs and the U


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## DarkStarr (May 25, 2012)

Impulse said:


> Ding ding ding.
> 
> Scary how many people do not know that. Or refuse to abid by it, because they really don't want to replace their Shoei or Arai.
> 
> I would like to see a statistic of how many gixxer riders go down, compared to others. Every squid I have scene riding, is more than likely on a gixxer 750, or even more startling, a liter bike.



Really?  I see more "squids" on Harleys.  Sport bike riders are some of the safest, experienced, and most protected riders I've seen.


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## phideux (May 26, 2012)

DarkStarr said:


> Really?  I see more "squids" on Harleys.  Sport bike riders are some of the safest, experienced, and most protected riders I've seen.



You should be down here right now where I am, It is now "Black Bike Week". We have about 50,000 bikes in town, I'll bet less than 1,000 of those are Harleys, the rest are sport bikes.
Most protected??? I'd guess at least 45,000 of those folks riding around this week are not gonna be caught dead wearing a helmet. The uniform of the week is shorts, flip-flops, micro skirts, and bikinis. This is "Road Rash" week.
At least half of these folks are drinking, and you can smell alot of pot smoke in the air.
I cannot count the number of times I've been passed on the right, in a bicycle lane, by motorcycles this week, usually well above the speed limit. I was even passed, on the right, while running lights and sirens. I also can't count the number of idiots I've seen doing wheelies, in traffic, that's how the one girl lost a nipple. I also can't count the number of bikes I've seen splitting lanes too, illegal here and dangerous.
I ain't seen a whole lot of safe, experienced or protected in this area.


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## Melmd (May 26, 2012)

phideux said:


> At least half of these folks are drinking, and you can smell alot of pot smoke in the air.



How do those guys do it, they drink, maybe smoke some pot and getaway driving from the bars... And nobody gets caught?


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## mycrofft (May 26, 2012)

We have proven once more that motorcycles are another of EMTLIFE's "black holes".


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## phideux (May 26, 2012)

Melmd said:


> How do those guys do it, they drink, maybe smoke some pot and getaway driving from the bars... And nobody gets caught?



A bunch get caught, but when you get 50,000 bikes vs 150 cops, quite a few slip through. That's when they start acting stupid and we end up getting them in the back of the ambulance.


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## Uclabruin103 (May 26, 2012)

If they are conscious ask whether they low-sided or high-sided.  Low-side is basically laying the bike down and sliding, they'll probably be walking around  picking up their bike before you even get there unless they hit something.  High-siding is being ejected into the air and falling 4ish feet (example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATZm0nIc2B0).  

I've ridden for over ten years and luckily have always been aware of my own mortality, so I would always be very cautious and learned about proper gear on dirt bikes.  I do ride a sport bike and love them for the look, and their performance despite not using it anywhere close to its full potential.


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## Uclabruin103 (May 26, 2012)

Side topic, but this was an interesting article about whether or not the Snell certification that's on most helmets is too much and may cause more injury.  http://www.westcoastweasels.com/archives/PDF/Blowing_the_Lid_Off.pdf


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## DrParasite (May 28, 2012)

Just came back from a trip from NJ to Rhode Island.

Saw a couple interesting motorcycle riders on the highway. 

but the most interesting by far had to be the motorcycle rider who was doing 70 mph with a helmet.... SECURED TO HIS LEFT ELBOW!!!  not on his head, it was protecting his elbow very well.  he was in a t-shirt and jeans too.  I tried to get a picture, but he was too far ahead of us.

many not wearing helmets, many wearing short sleeves or shorts, a few in sandles.  sometimes they had a passenger on the back who was wearing flip flops, short shorts, and a bikini top.  Must have been great to ride, but I'm betting if they took a spill it would definitely suck.

Both my buddy who will be the best man at my wedding and my former roommate rode motorcycles.  Every time they rode, no matter what the weather, it was long pant, leather jacket, full helmet and visor, boots, and usually leather riding gloves.  hot as balls when you are stopped in the summer weather, but good to go when you are driving down the road at 40 mph.


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