# Erectile Drug Led to Teen's Death



## Sasha (Jul 24, 2009)

*Erectile Drug Led to Teen's Death*
Full Article:


> ORINDA, Cal. (July 23) -- After 16-year-old Joseph Loudon died after a house party on May 23, investigators were not surprised to find alcohol in his blood. What did surprise them was high levels of papaverine -- a prescription medication used to treat erectile dysfunction.
> 
> Police are still trying to determine whether the teen was taking the drug deliberately or had it slipped to him in a drink, perhaps as a prank, the San Francisco Chronicle reported.
> 
> In any case, the combination of the alcohol and papaverine caused Loudon to throw up. He subsequently choked to death on his own vomit, according to findings by Contra Costa County coroner.



That is a new one, never considered ED drugs as something you'd have to worry about showing up in your drink or your kid doing it recreationally. Poor kid.


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## VentMedic (Jul 24, 2009)

It will be interesting to know where he got it.

Another article with a picture.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/07/22/MN1218S35E.DTL

We occasionally use papaverine in the NICU and PICU for UAC and PALs to relax spasms within the artery. 

PAL - Peripheral Arterial Lines

UAC - Umbilical Arterial Catheter

NICU - Neonatal ICU

PICU - Pediatric ICU


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## Aidey (Jul 24, 2009)

Nearly any medication in a high enough level, especially mixed with alcohol can cause nausea and vomiting. That is nothing special. Asphyxia killed the kid, not the drug. I hate it when meds are blamed in cases like this. Yes it was a contributory factor, but it wasn't the medication itself that did it.

/rant


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## CAOX3 (Jul 24, 2009)

Aidey said:


> Nearly any medication in a high enough level, especially mixed with alcohol can cause nausea and vomiting. That is nothing special. Asphyxia killed the kid, not the drug. I hate it when meds are blamed in cases like this. Yes it was a contributory factor, but it wasn't the medication itself that did it.
> 
> /rant



Thats like saying cocaine didnt kill them the the massive MI did.


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## VentMedic (Jul 24, 2009)

Aidey said:


> I hate it when meds are blamed in cases like this.
> /rant


 
No one has said Paverine is a bad drug. If you read the article I posted, it tells the many uses for the drug besides what I have listed. 

But, you have already got a defense ready for the supplier of this med when he/she is caught.

This is not a med you would have normally have in your bathroom cabinet at home without a perscription. It is very dangerous to have someone supplying drugs at these parties who may be clueless about what they even are. Giving any drug with alcohol is of course very dangerous so I would not be lenient toward the one(s) supplying these drugs just because it may not have been the direct cause of death. Kids have to know the consequences of taking illegal drugs or perscription meds that aren't prescibed to them. It may have been a significant contributing factor to this young person's death.


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## Aidey (Jul 24, 2009)

Oh, I don't disagree with you at all Vent, and I know that it, and other ED meds have other uses besides ED. It's more of an issue with how the article is written and the subtle sensationalism worked into it.


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## VentMedic (Jul 24, 2009)

Aidey said:


> Oh, I don't disagree with you at all Vent, and I know that it, and other ED meds have other uses besides ED. It's more of an issue with how the article is written and the subtle sensationalism worked into it.


 
Unfortunately in the SF Bay area where this occured, a dead 16 year old is not really headlines anymore. At least with that title, some might actually read the article to see what is going on in their own backyards. Many in the suburbs, which is what Orinda is, would just glance at an article about a dead kid as just another gang or "regular" drug death. This makes some take notice that it can happen in their own neighborhoods also and where people are more likely to have prescription meds lying around.


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## minneola24 (Jul 24, 2009)

Shouldn't have been drinking in the first place...


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## timmy84 (Jul 24, 2009)

We get teenagers in the ER/on the floor all the time for taking pills that they thought were something else.  You might be surprised at what these kids will take, and they always think it is safer than "doing drugs".  Very sad.


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## usafmedic45 (Jul 24, 2009)

> Asphyxia killed the kid, not the drug. I hate it when meds are blamed in cases like this. Yes it was a contributory factor, but it wasn't the medication itself that did it.



Thank you....you beat me to pointing that out. 



> Thats like saying cocaine didnt kill them the the massive MI did.



Have you ever seen the autopsy report/death certificate of someone who died of a cocaine-induced MI?  It doesn't sound like it.  The death would be listed as "due to acute myocardial infarction with acute cocaine intoxication as contributory to the death".  Normally you also see "atherosclerotic coronary vascular disease" listed alongside since there is usually a moderate to significant level of ASCVD present in these cases. Technically they did not die from the cocaine and died from an MI so technically that is correct.  In order to state someone died from the effect of a drug you have to rule out absolutely that there is no reasonable medical doubt that they would not have died from the events in the absence of the medication.  In this case, it is likely the kid would not have died without the presence of the drug, but then again, he could have vomited and aspirated without the drug in his system.  As a former deputy coroner, I would have listed the death as "due to asphyxia secondary to aspiration of gastric contents with alcohol and paperavine intoxication contributory to the death."


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## VentMedic (Jul 24, 2009)

Yeah most of us get the drug vs cause of death thing. But does that excuse easy access to these drugs? Should parents not be aware of how their own drugs can turn up on the street? Are we excusing this behavior because you don't like the way the paper worded the cause of death? 

Give me a freakin' break!! Do you know how many kids we see even on a slow weekend to get an NGT with maybe some charcoal and maybe a ventilator for awhile?  Do you know how many die without headlines?

To put your heads up your arses and ignore the seriousness of these situations is becoming all too familiar especially with some in EMS. Please don't give me "the street makes you calloused BS" because I don't buy that. 

Why are you blowing off the seriousness of kids drinking and combining drugs? This is something one will see as an EMT(P) and hopefully they won't have to see the death certificate. This is a good article to inform everyone what is out there to make EMT(P)s, including those who are parents, more aware. A death certificate is something NO parent wants to see with their child's name on it. That is especially true for those in EMS with kids.


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## minneola24 (Jul 24, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Yeah most of us get the drug vs cause of death thing. But does that excuse easy access to these drugs? Should parents not be aware of how their own drugs can turn up on the street? Are we excusing this behavior because you don't like the way the paper worded the cause of death?
> 
> Give me a freakin' break!! Do you know how many kids we see even on a slow weekend to get an NGT with maybe some charcoal and maybe a ventilator for awhile?  Do you know how many die without headlines?
> 
> ...



I'm in high school and during school I see kids smokin/drinking "doin' what they do" every day. Between a combination of their stupidity and the sheriffs laziness they drive right past the area where it goes down. Then when I go in the office I see the school sheriff crackin' jokes with the receptionist. 

The reason why kids do it is because they think its cool, I mean during class I'll over hear some kids talking about how drunk they got over the weekend and how much crap they smoked and they all laugh about it talking about how "crazy" so and so was.

Might I add I never seen any non-smoking campaign happen at my school or any drug-free events.


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## usafmedic45 (Jul 24, 2009)

> Yeah most of us get the drug vs cause of death thing.



Yes, but at least one of the people in this forum didn't seem to get it.  Hence why I said what I said. 



> But does that excuse easy access to these drugs?



Did I say it did? 



> Should parents not be aware of how their own drugs can turn up on the street?



Of course they should. 



> Are we excusing this behavior because you don't like the way the paper worded the cause of death?



Can you come down off the cross?  I really don't feel like shouting and I don't have ready access to the forum's ladder since the mods aren't hear to unlock the garage for me.  



> Do you know how many kids we see even on a slow weekend to get an NGT with maybe some charcoal and maybe a ventilator for awhile?



Uh, remember who you're talking to. I do the same job you do (hell, I even used to fly as an RT).



> Do you know how many die without headlines?



I probably have an even better idea than you since I used to deal with the ones who never made it off the scene alive (or under attempted resuscitation).  



> To put your heads up your arses and ignore the seriousness of these situations is becoming all too familiar especially with some in EMS.





> Why are you blowing off the seriousness of kids drinking and combining drugs?



Like I said,  less hyperbole and a little less vitriole might be called for here since I don't think anyone is saying it's not a major issue.  I know you get passionate about your work- like we all do- but for crying out loud, there is such a thing as excessive backlash simply because you think you're a bigger person because you can make a more pointed argument for something that we already agree on.  Save the browbeating for things where there is actual disagreement (helicopter safety, field intubation, etc).  Picking fights simply to pick fights is beneath you Venty....


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## VentMedic (Jul 24, 2009)

So you want to distract from a decent topic to make it about you?

Some of us do deal with these issues practically on a daily bases. Sorry if they don't make up to your standard of a good topic. Dead kids are usually not much fun but there are things that can be learned here. 

Did you not even bother to look at the post before you went off on a tangent? We do have some young members here who are interested in this topic. Get you ego in check and you might even learn something.



> I probably have an even better idea than you since I used to deal with the ones who never made it off the scene alive (or under attempted resuscitation).


 
30 years as a Paramedic. How many do you think I saw at scene? You haven't been alive as long as I've been in EMS.  It is just that as an RRT I got to  see those the can not be fully counted as saves.


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## VentMedic (Jul 24, 2009)

minneola24 said:


> Might I add I never seen any non-smoking campaign happen at my school or any drug-free events.


 
We used to be in the schools alot more both as EMS and as RN/RRTs.  Budget cuts have hurt alot of programs.


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## minneola24 (Jul 24, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> We used to be in the schools alot more both as EMS and as RN/RRTs.  Budget cuts have hurt alot of programs.



Yeah I remember back in elementary school the fire truck came and showed us what to do in case of a fire and even let us spray some of the weak hoses. 

But to be honest, kids can be drug-free if they want to, they are just acting stupid and want to become more popular in front of their piers so they do what they gotta do. But if they were smart enough they would stay away from the stuff, its not hard at all, I did it and have been in high school for 2 years now. 

Oh well, this stuff is just going to keep happening, you just have to choose your friends carefully... all I got to say.


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## Sasha (Jul 24, 2009)

minneola24 said:


> Shouldn't have been drinking in the first place...



Certainly you are not implying that he deserved what he got for drinking?? Perhaps it's must me, but it sounds like you are justifying his death.


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## minneola24 (Jul 24, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Certainly you are not implying that he deserved what he got for drinking?? Perhaps it's must me, but it sounds like you are justifying his death.



Nah I wouldn't say he deserved what he got, no one does. What I am saying is why is he going to party where alcohol is being served?


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## usafmedic45 (Jul 24, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> So you want to distract from a decent topic to make it about you?



I would have preferred to have handled this like adults through PMs like we were doing until you posted this public attempt at character assassination.  



> Some of us do deal with these issues practically on a daily bases.



The pronoun you're looking for there is "we".  You know, as in the cumulative of "you and I"?  Like I said, we do the _same job_ so no need to speak as though you're the only one on here who sees patients who are not "obvious saves" when they wind up on vents in the hospital.  



> Sorry if they don't make up to your standard of a good topic.



Never said that....I just never been a fan of public health education _en masse_ and leave it to those who have a passion for it such as yourself. 



> Dead kids are usually not much fun but there are things that can be learned here.


 
If I was looking for fun topics, I would not be hanging around an EMS forums at all.  Most of the topics we discuss are not exactly what I would call "fun".  As for something to be learned, I agree.  However, like I said, when it comes to the juveniles amongst us, I'll leave it to people with a drive to educate them to do the teaching unless I have no other choice.  



> Did you not even bother to look at the post before you went off on a tangent?



Which one?  The one after yours?  Yes, but I figured I would address your off topic post separately.  I was too busy trying to respond to your attack on me. 



> We do have some young members here who are interested in this topic.



Then carry on....I was simply correcting another misconception that you didn't bother to address (the issue of how someone dies) and leaving you to your own area of interest.  Your comment about it not being a topic of your liking not meaning it is not worth discussing cuts both directions.  



> Get you ego in check and you might even learn something.


 
Not even going to honor such a disrespectful comment with a response.



> 30 years as a Paramedic. How many do you think I saw at scene? You haven't been alive as long as I've been in EMS.  It is just that as an RRT I got to  see those the can not be fully counted as saves.



Did I say I had anywhere near the experience level in years that you do? The point was you don't ever see the ones who are so obviously dead that the only people who seem them in our spectrum are the LEOs and coroners.  That is what I was getting at.  Nothing more, nothing less.


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## usafmedic45 (Jul 24, 2009)

> What I am saying is why is he going to party where alcohol is being served?



Bad judgment, ignorance, peer pressure, inadequate parental supervision....any or all of those are possible contributors.  



> Oh well, this stuff is just going to keep happening, you just have to choose your friends carefully... all I got to say.



I tend to agree, but also happen to be a firm believer in the old Edmund Burke saying about all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to stand idle and do nothing.  That is what VentMedic is trying to get at....educational programs may help a little, it may help a lot or it may have no effect at all (or actually do more harm than good if done exceedingly poorly according to some theorists), but you still have to try your best.  As she said, the budget cuts have been a major issue for a lot of the programs especially the ones most likely to make a dent.


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## VentMedic (Jul 25, 2009)

usafmedic45 said:


> The pronoun you're looking for there is "we". You know, as in the cumulative of "you and I"? Like I said, we do the _same job_ so no need to speak as though you're the only one on here who sees patients who are not "obvious saves" when they wind up on vents in the hospital.


 
Just because a patient ends up on a ventilator does not mean they are "dead" or near dead. There are many reasons to put a patient on a ventilator. However, even if a patient does not necessarily "code", they may have enough toxic effect from decrease BP or whatever cause that their neurological function may not return. Thus they may end up in a vegetative state. There has been much effort put into research such as hypothermia because a heart beat does not always constitute a "save" in the pure sense of the term. We prefer patients to leave the hospital without any neurological defects. That is a "save". 



> Never said that....I just never been a fan of public health education _en masse_ and leave it to those who have a passion for it such as yourself.


 
Then what is your argument here? Do you have ANYTHING to add? 




usafmedic45 said:


> Did I say I had anywhere near the experience level in years that you do? The point was you don't ever see the ones who are so obviously dead that the only people who seem them in our spectrum are the LEOs and coroners. That is what I was getting at. Nothing more, nothing less.


 
30 years ago the ambulances still did body runs unfortunately. So yes I have also did my share of coroner's calls. As well, the FD was called for recovery in some cases.


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## usafmedic45 (Jul 25, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Just because a patient ends up on a ventilator does not mean they are "dead" or near dead. There are many reasons to put a patient on a ventilator. However, even if a patient does not necessarily "code", they may have enough toxic effect from decrease BP or whatever cause that their neurological function may not return. Thus they may end up in a vegetative state. There has been much effort put into research such as hypothermia because a heart beat does not always constitute a "save" in the pure sense of the term. We prefer patients to leave the hospital without any neurological defects. That is a "save".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will PM you my responses to avoid further derailing of this thread.


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## Cory (Jul 25, 2009)

Well, I remember a senior prank in high school once was to put Viagra in the puch bowl at the graduation ceremony (they didn't though, we were good kids)

The kid was simply not using his mind. It is always sad to see how someone sensible totaly loose their minds over drugs, alchohol, etc. But that is one of the many reasons I'm interested in EMS. I want to help those people. Not that it will change them or anything, just I want to help them. I hate to hear about teens dying.


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## Sasha (Jul 25, 2009)

minneola24 said:


> Nah I wouldn't say he deserved what he got, no one does. What I am saying is why is he going to party where alcohol is being served?



Because he likes alcohol? Not every child is a picture of perfection. Some use alcohol and drugs as a way to act out or escape their frustrations.


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## timmy84 (Jul 25, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Because he likes alcohol?



Occam's Razor.  Nicely put Sasha!


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## minneola24 (Jul 25, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Because he likes alcohol? Not every child is a picture of perfection. Some use alcohol and drugs as a way to act out or escape their frustrations.



So in that sense, what is wrong with drug attics? They like drugs? Makes em feel better...


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## medic417 (Jul 25, 2009)

Cory said:


> Well, I remember a senior prank in high school once was to put Viagra in the puch bowl at the graduation ceremony (they didn't though, we were good kids)



Glad you didn't.  There are people that have serious allergic reactions to small amounts of some of the ingredients in those drugs.  Would be sad to see someone die just because they thought it would be funny to see all the guys walking around with tents at the crotch level.


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## Cory (Jul 25, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Because he likes alcohol? Not every child is a picture of perfection. Some use alcohol and drugs as a way to act out or escape their frustrations.



Some serial killers LIKE killing, but it is still illegal. Some 16 year olds LIKE alcohol, but they aren't 21, therefore it is also illegal.

There are drinking age laws for a reason. 16 year olds aren't reponsible enough to drink a lot of alcohol. Minneola is right, he shouldn't have been at tht party drinking. Regardless if it happens every day in just about every city on Earth, it is still illegal, it is a problem, and it does not need to be exscused.

Teens who do drugs to act out or escape are usually the ones that end up going to far and OD'ing. And then YOU'RE the one who has to come and scoop them up off some dirty street corner. If they have problems, they need to find another way of feeling better.

Drugs may ke you feel good when you're high, but you feel a thousand times worse afterwards.


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## Sasha (Jul 25, 2009)

minneola24 said:


> So in that sense, what is wrong with drug attics? They like drugs? Makes em feel better...



I have never had an attic that liked anything.


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## minneola24 (Jul 25, 2009)

Sasha said:


> I have never had an attic that liked anything.



My point is, if the kid thinks alcohol is a way to "escape frustrations" as you put it then he obviously should find something else, you don't seem to have a problem with that which is why I related a kid with alcohol to a drug attic with drugs.

edit: sorry i don't know what attics like and don't like, i don't talk to them.


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## medic417 (Jul 25, 2009)

Sasha said:


> I have never had an attic that liked anything.



My attic is addicted to heat and because of it my electric bill is high.


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## medic417 (Jul 25, 2009)

minneola24 said:


> My point is, if the kid thinks alcohol is a way to "escape frustrations" as you put it then he obviously should find something else, you don't seem to have a problem with that which is why I related a kid with alcohol to a drug *attic* with drugs.



zzzzzzoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooommmmmmmmmmmmmm

Did that one go over your head?  Check the meaning of the bold word above.


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## minneola24 (Jul 25, 2009)

medic417 said:


> zzzzzzoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooommmmmmmmmmmmmm
> 
> Did that one go over your head?  Check the meaning of the bold word above.



(trying to think of an excuse due to embarrassment) :blush:

Oh well


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## Sasha (Jul 25, 2009)

> sorry i don't know what attics like and don't like, i don't talk to them.



I don't talk to attics either!


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## minneola24 (Jul 25, 2009)

Sasha said:


> I don't talk to attics either!



Haha, this is really funny.


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## timmy84 (Jul 25, 2009)

Sasha said:


> I don't talk to attics either!



I do... sometimes I like to haul my rear upstairs and have a good heart to heart with the attic.  I also talk to the addicts when they are broke and show up to the hospital with exacerbation of fibromyalgia.


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## Sasha (Jul 25, 2009)

timmy84 said:


> I do... sometimes I like to haul my rear upstairs and have a good heart to heart with the attic.  I also talk to the addicts when they are broke and show up to the hospital with exacerbation of fibromyalgia.



I made my attic a room for a couple of years, thought I was really hip and nifty 

I talk to addicts as well, I don't judge them for poor choices. Perhaps some don't really understand addiction and what it does to someone and the mental toll it takes. I consider alcoholism and drug addiction to be mental illness.

The poor kid is dead, let's let the judgement go. Heaven forbid a family member came across this to see "Well he shouldn't have been drinking anyway".


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## minneola24 (Jul 25, 2009)

Sasha said:


> I made my attic a room for a couple of years, thought I was really hip and nifty
> 
> I talk to addicts as well, I don't judge them for poor choices. Perhaps some don't really understand addiction and what it does to someone and the mental toll it takes. I consider alcoholism and drug addiction to be mental illness.
> 
> The poor kid is dead, let's let the judgement go. Heaven forbid a family member came across this to see "Well he shouldn't have been drinking anyway".



Yeah, the kid is dead, I feel bad for him and his family.

However, in school we were taught about dangers of that stuff where people slip things in your drinks, so I don't go to party's where alcohol is served, because you can get killed from that AND you have a risk of someone slipping something in your drink as well.


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## Sasha (Jul 25, 2009)

minneola24 said:


> Yeah, the kid is dead, I feel bad for him and his family.
> 
> However, in school we were taught about dangers of that stuff where people slip things in your drinks, so I don't go to party's where alcohol is served, because you can get killed from that AND you have a risk of someone slipping something in your drink as well.



You can slip things into koolaid and cokes too. And you can get killed at non-alcohol parties too.


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## minneola24 (Jul 25, 2009)

Sasha said:


> You can slip things into koolaid and cokes too. And you can get killed at non-alcohol parties too.



Alright, whatever. You win, not sure what to reply to that <_<


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## Cory (Jul 25, 2009)

Sasha said:


> I made my attic a room for a couple of years, thought I was really hip and nifty
> 
> I talk to addicts as well, I don't judge them for poor choices. Perhaps some don't really understand addiction and what it does to someone and the mental toll it takes. I consider alcoholism and drug addiction to be mental illness.
> 
> The poor kid is dead, let's let the judgement go. Heaven forbid a family member came across this to see "Well he shouldn't have been drinking anyway".



I understand your point, and with all respect to the boy and his family and friends, these things are still important. Even in death he is at fault. It may sound cruel, but everytime something like this happens, it should be an example for kids everywhere.


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## timmy84 (Jul 25, 2009)

minneola24 said:


> Yeah, the kid is dead, I feel bad for him and his family.
> 
> However, in school we were taught about dangers of that stuff where people slip things in your drinks, so I don't go to party's where alcohol is served, because you can get killed from that AND you have a risk of someone slipping something in your drink as well.



Very true.  Let's hope there are more people like you out there and less like me when I was in high school.


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## Sasha (Jul 25, 2009)

minneola24 said:


> Alright, whatever. You win, not sure what to reply to that <_<



Hey, I'm just saying... I went to plenty of parties during my teenage years both with and without alcohol served. (And no, I don't really drink at 21 and did not drink back then.) Kids can still bring knives and guns and crowbars into parties without alcohol. 

Also a very good friend of mine had roofies slipped into her soda. It doesn't matter what you are drinking, you have to watch it and be careful. Alcohol is not prerequisite to a dangerous or even a lethal party. Instead of taking an argument away from this, take away the fact that you have to guard your drink when you are out and about, if you lose sight of it even for a second, get a new one. There are some depraved people out there.


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## timmy84 (Jul 25, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Hey, I'm just saying... I went to plenty of parties during my teenage years both with and without alcohol served. (And no, I don't really drink at 21 and did not drink back then.) Kids can still bring knives and guns and crowbars into parties without alcohol.
> 
> Also a very good friend of mine had roofies slipped into her soda. It doesn't matter what you are drinking, you have to watch it and be careful. Alcohol is not prerequisite to a dangerous or even a lethal party. Instead of taking an argument away from this, take away the fact that you have to guard your drink when you are out and about, if you lose sight of it even for a second, get a new one. There are some depraved people out there.



Here here!  I was my class salutatorian, captain of the lacrosse team, Boys State delegate, inner city student tutor, and worked 18-24 hours a week, and still went to parties where alcohol was served.  I was smart enough to not take any pills, but I anyone who wanted to could have slipped me a crushed Viagra in my raspberry ginger ale, even at the parties that didn't serve alcohol at all.  My brother tells me lately there has been a trend of not even having alcohol at high school parties due to logistical limitations.  It is easier to go to a party the parents know about serving ginger ale to wash down Adderall, Norco, MDMA, OxyContin, or whatever else they want to take privately or in small groups.  You have no idea what is going on at any party you go to.


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## MendoEMT (Jul 26, 2009)

Seeing stiffy meds in combo with booze is pretty common right now.  Super popular at clubs...  everyone knows that ETOH has deleterious effects on your wood.


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