# Use of Backup Spotters



## WuLabsWuTecH (Jul 24, 2013)

So I saw an article today (http://www.firehouse.com/news/11057508/cops-phoenix-ff-who-struck-killed-another-didnt-have-spotter) that mentioned the death of a firefighter caused by a backing accident.

Recently, one of my departments has a Chief who is on a warpath for making sure we use spotters while backing AT ALL TIMES.  The only times we can choose not to use one is if (1. we are alone 2. There is no suitable person to serve as backer, or 3. Using a backer would adversely affect patient care.)

Now every department I've ever been on has had a backer policy, but usually its enforcement is very lax and for things that you do hundreds of times (backing out of a place at the hospital, backing into the station, backing out of that unfortunate placing of the diesel pump at the gas station) no one says anything or cares if you don't have a backer.  But this particular chief has decided to be very strict (and I can't say I blame him).

I was curious as to how strict your own departments are in enforcing backing policies.  A lot of people on my department thought that this reminder of the policy was just going to be a gentle nudge and didn't take it seriously (and why would they expect different when the policy has been there for decades but never enforced?), pissed off our chief, and now our chief comes out of his office to make sure there's backer every time he hears a backup alarm!

Obviously the best thing to do is to avoid positioning your vehicle such that backing is necessary, but there are times where you don't have that luxury!


(Though this is a news article that sparked me to ask the question, I believe that it fits here better than in news since my question is in relation to a topic and not the news article in itself.  Mods please move this if you feel my judgment here was wrong)


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## WBExpatMedic (Jul 24, 2013)

My department goes in cycles. We'll have to use a spotter for a month or so then the chiefs will move on to something else for 8 or 9 months before coming back to it. We call it the "Flavor of the month discipline plan."


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## mycrofft (Jul 24, 2013)

Backers are like checklists. No-backers is like mental checklists. I like using backers, but train them first.


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## EpiEMS (Jul 24, 2013)

Better to have one and not need one, than to not have one and need one!


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## NomadicMedic (Jul 24, 2013)

At my service it is mandatory that we have a backer at all times, unless we are alone. If you're observed by the supervisor backing up a truck while you have a person who can act as a backer, both of you will receive written discipline. As in, you're backing up and your partner sitting is in the passenger seat. You both get paper. 

They don't mess around with it here.


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## Tigger (Jul 24, 2013)

DEmedic said:


> At my service it is mandatory that we have a backer at all times, unless we are alone. If you're observed by the supervisor backing up a truck while you have a person who can act as a backer, both of you will receive written discipline. As in, you're backing up and your partner sitting is in the passenger seat. You both get paper.
> 
> They don't mess around with it here.



My place in Boston was like that. If the driver hit something without a spotter both could be terminated. At the place I am currently being forced out of/quitting, both providers would be fired on the spot for no spotter.


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## Handsome Robb (Jul 24, 2013)

Per policy we are supposed to however it's not strictly enforced. Generally fire will back us on scene though unless they didn't respond for whatever reason or we dismissed them.

If you back into something you better have a damn good reason why you didn't have a backer though. 

Any time a fire apparatus reverses here they have at least one spotter. I always use my code lights in reverse as well unless it is affecting vision. Makes you more visible and keeps people away from you.


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## Medic Tim (Jul 24, 2013)

Where I used to work we had a "back up button" our spotter had to push every time the truck was put in reverse. There was an actual button on the rear of the ambulance that had to be pushed. There was also one on the inside back door. We had key fobs and everything was monitored. The only time per policy we didn't have to push it was when backing from a roadway into a driveway as they did not want us standing in the middle of the road to do it. we have to fill out an incident report every time the button is not pushed.


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## ffemt8978 (Jul 24, 2013)

Medic Tim said:


> Where I used to work we had a "back up button" our spotter had to push every time the truck was put in reverse. There was an actual button on the rear of the ambulance that had to be pushed. There was also one on the inside back door. We had key fobs and everything was monitored. The only time per policy we didn't have to push it was when backing from a roadway into a driveway as they did not want us standing in the middle of the road to do it. we have to fill out an incident report every time the button is not pushed.



So in order to back up there had to be a person close enough to the back of the rig to be hit by it while backing up?:huh:


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## Handsome Robb (Jul 24, 2013)

ffemt8978 said:


> So in order to back up there had to be a person close enough to the back of the rig to be hit by it while backing up?:huh:



I'm guessing they hit the button as they walk by to ID that there was a spotter in place during the reverse...I'm just a dumb paramedic though so who knows.


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## MMiz (Jul 24, 2013)

ffemt8978 said:


> So in order to back up there had to be a person close enough to the back of the rig to be hit by it while backing up?:huh:


We had those, too.  I believe it was part of Road Safety system that recorded speed, RLS activation, seat belts, etc.

The attendant had to push the button on the bumper then act as a spotter.  If they were inside the rig there was a button located near the rear doors that they'd push as they watched from inside.

Road Safety says that 85% of EMS accidents occur in reverse.  Based on the accidents I saw while working in EMS, I'd say that's true.


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## Kevinf (Jul 24, 2013)

Not that spotters are infallible. One of my supervisors backed me into a pole (no damage done) and wrote me up for it. Figure that one out.

I frequently see large box trucks with convex mirrors on an arm attached to the topside back of the box. Backup cameras also exist. I'm curious why we don't see these items more often in EMS.


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## rmabrey (Jul 24, 2013)

Kevinf said:


> I frequently see large box trucks with convex mirrors on an arm attached to the topside back of the box. Backup cameras also exist. I'm curious why we don't see these items more often in EMS.



Cause they cost money


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## Kevinf (Jul 24, 2013)

Also: Spotters aren't infallible. One of my supervisors backed me into a guide pole (no damage done) and wrote me up for it... figure that one out. Here's the rest of the story: I had just started there not long ago (as a brand new EMT) and this happened after I had asked him to spot since the side mirrors were frosted over due to freezing rain on the transport and it was night and in an unlit bay. I had initially told him I was just going to pull into the bay front first (no issues with that, loading either way is fine as I found out other crews and supers park front first all the time) but he absolutely insisted that I MUST back in even after I told him I couldn't see out of the mirrors anymore. I insisted on pulling in and he was was adamant that I HAD TO back in. It's my first time at that place and I'm new to all this and I'm assuming he's got good reasons so I asked him to spot for me. "Your good, your good... sccchhrrrcchh." "You hit the pole."..... thanks, big help there. I did learn a few things from that however: if I'm driving I don't care if Jesus himself tells me I need to do something, I'm driving and parking how I see best. And secondly, not to trust that supervisor for anything. He quit a few weeks later. Turns out that super was more than a bit on the OCD side and had to have things done his way. If you folded straps your way on the stretcher he would unfold them and refold them to suit his preference, things like that. So the only reason I HAD to back in was because of his OCD demanding it. There were other supers with the company at the time and after I had gotten to know them better one of them told me there was a big fight about that write-up upstairs but they let it stand since it was done already. "That was bull:censored::censored::censored::censored:" was the exact phrasing.

I frequently see large box trucks with convex mirrors on an arm attached to the topside back of the box. Backup cameras also exist. I'm curious why we don't see these items more often in EMS.


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## Handsome Robb (Jul 24, 2013)

Kevinf said:


> Not that spotters are infallible. One of my supervisors backed me into a pole (no damage done) and wrote me up for it. Figure that one out.
> 
> I frequently see large box trucks with convex mirrors on an arm attached to the topside back of the box. Backup cameras also exist. I'm curious why we don't see these items more often in EMS.



We have reverse cameras, DriveCam/iDrive depending on which rig you're in as well as a right hand turn camera that looks down the right side of the rig. 

Big brother is watching...


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## Medic Tim (Jul 24, 2013)

MMiz said:


> We had those, too.  I believe it was part of Road Safety system that recorded speed, RLS activation, seat belts, etc.
> 
> The attendant had to push the button on the bumper then act as a spotter.  If they were inside the rig there was a button located near the rear doors that they'd push as they watched from inside.
> 
> Road Safety says that 85% of EMS accidents occur in reverse.  Based on the accidents I saw while working in EMS, I'd say that's true.



everything we did was monitored. if we put the rig in reverse without the button being pushed there would be a loud tone played from a speaker beside your head. It would also tick if you were going to fast, breaking to hard, turning to hard, no seatbelt, etc.

if we were by ourselves we would have to do a walk around and push the button on the way. once it was pushed you had 30 seconds to put the truck in reverse.


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## Wheel (Jul 24, 2013)

Medic Tim said:


> everything we did was monitored. if we put the rig in reverse without the button being pushed there would be a loud tone played from a speaker beside your head. It would also tick if you were going to fast, breaking to hard, turning to hard, no seatbelt, etc.
> 
> if we were by ourselves we would have to do a walk around and push the button on the way. once it was pushed you had 30 seconds to put the truck in reverse.



We have this also. It's rather annoying, but effective.


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## Handsome Robb (Jul 24, 2013)

Wheel said:


> We have this also. It's rather annoying, but effective.



We had it as well then went it the DriveCam system and then now they flopped to iDrive. Still in the process of putting it in to all the units though. I think they're just waiting until each one goes out to be remounted to do it though.


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## rmabrey (Jul 25, 2013)

Medic Tim said:


> everything we did was monitored. if we put the rig in reverse without the button being pushed there would be a loud tone played from a speaker beside your head. It would also tick if you were going to fast, breaking to hard, turning to hard, no seatbelt, etc.
> 
> if we were by ourselves we would have to do a walk around and push the button on the way. once it was pushed you had 30 seconds to put the truck in reverse.



It doesnt take long to find ways around it. Reverse > gun it > neutral


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## cprted (Jul 25, 2013)

My service requires the use of a spotter for backing "when operationally possible."  It isn't enforced very much ... unless you back into something ... then you're up the creek ...


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## Medic Tim (Jul 25, 2013)

rmabrey said:


> It doesnt take long to find ways around it. Reverse > gun it > neutral



we used to do that but they are calling people on it now. Just because it doesn't cause an "infraction" doesn't mean they don't see it when they do random audits on some truck downloads. Plus the fleet guys throw a fit when they hear you are doing that.


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## shfd739 (Jul 25, 2013)

DEmedic said:


> At my service it is mandatory that we have a backer at all times, unless we are alone. If you're observed by the supervisor backing up a truck while you have a person who can act as a backer, both of you will receive written discipline. As in, you're backing up and your partner sitting is in the passenger seat. You both get paper.
> 
> They don't mess around with it here.



Same as here. 

Our RSI backup buttons were disconnected last year. Only way to get caught is to be observed by someone or hit something without a spotter and the investigation reveals there was a capable spotter available.


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## abckidsmom (Jul 25, 2013)

Everywhere I've ever worked has had a spotter policy. My theory on the matter is that I will happily back you up in all weather, no matter what, and I won't rat you out if you don't use a spotter, but if you hit something without a spotter I'm throwing you under the bus. 

All of my work-related vehicle contacts have been in drive. Go figure. I exist to mess up the statistics.


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## MissK (Jul 25, 2013)

We will soon be losing the back up cameras to have black boxes installed with the button in the back we have to press when spotting the driver.


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## broken stretcher (Jul 25, 2013)

the policy is not enforced by supervisors however if the boss man is around town and sees you back into the bay w/o lights and a spotter your toast


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## rmabrey (Jul 26, 2013)

Medic Tim said:


> we used to do that but they are calling people on it now. Just because it doesn't cause an "infraction" doesn't mean they don't see it when they do random audits on some truck downloads. Plus the fleet guys throw a fit when they hear you are doing that.



The only thing they care about here is "unsafe reverse". Guy in charge has too many commitments to keep up with that consistently.


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## medicdan (Jul 26, 2013)

Damage from backing up is 100% preventable, with a good spotter. Obviously there are situations where having a spotter is not possible, but in every other, it's foolish not to use one. 

I'm curious-- does anyone here think that a backup camera immediately replaces a spotter? I think someone mentioned a service removing theirs in favor of RSI. 

Are there any services that advocate the provider in the back getting out while patient loaded in order to spot? Is that ever seen as abandonment?


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## Tigger (Jul 26, 2013)

emt.dan said:


> Damage from backing up is 100% preventable, with a good spotter. Obviously there are situations where having a spotter is not possible, but in every other, it's foolish not to use one.
> 
> I'm curious-- does anyone here think that a backup camera immediately replaces a spotter? I think someone mentioned a service removing theirs in favor of RSI.
> 
> Are there any services that advocate the provider in the back getting out while patient loaded in order to spot? Is that ever seen as abandonment?



Having learned to drive in vehicles without them I find that when I'm in an ambulance with a backup camera I don't even use them. Honestly the only thing I use them for is to check that nothing is immediately behind me. You can't back up using ours, that's for sure. The perspective is all wrong for that.


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## 13PappalR (Jul 29, 2013)

Haven't joined an agency yet (right out of EMT-B class), but the instructor stressed having a backer as she worked for Acadian and backing up without a spotter was punishable by (up to) being fired.


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## medictinysc (Jul 29, 2013)

medic tim said:


> where i used to work we had a "back up button" our spotter had to push every time the truck was put in reverse. There was an actual button on the rear of the ambulance that had to be pushed. There was also one on the inside back door. We had key fobs and everything was monitored. The only time per policy we didn't have to push it was when backing from a roadway into a driveway as they did not want us standing in the middle of the road to do it. We have to fill out an incident report every time the button is not pushed.



i feel your pain


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## rwik123 (Jul 29, 2013)

My volly service has a backup camera and no spotter policy, but at my paid job they require a spotter anytime the second provider isn't engaged in patient care.


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## ZombieEMT (Jul 30, 2013)

One of my departments has a very strict back-up policy. We have a driver monitoring system in our trucks, one of the things that is recorded is whether or not the spotter button on the back of the truck (or in the patient compartment) is pressed when put into reverse. Drivers have lost driving privileges as a result of not using a spotter.


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## leetdragoon (Aug 1, 2013)

interdasting


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## WuLabsWuTecH (Aug 30, 2013)

Tigger said:


> Having learned to drive in vehicles without them I find that when I'm in an ambulance with a backup camera I don't even use them. Honestly the only thing I use them for is to check that nothing is immediately behind me. You can't back up using ours, that's for sure. The perspective is all wrong for that.



That is EXACTLY the point of backup cameras.  I saw a girl back a medic into a pole once because she kept using the camera as she was turning and pulling out of a spot and didn't see the pole on the side of her truck.

1) Put the medic in reverse
2) check the camera for anything directly behind you (which also give enough time for a few beeps of the backup alarm to give pedestrians some warning)
3) Scan mirrors as normal while backing up slowly, perhaps with a glance at your camera once in awhile, but you SHOULD be able to see anything entering you rear blind spot long before they get into you blind spot. (Exception, a kid on a bike who whizzed behind us once)


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## Carlos Danger (Aug 30, 2013)

WuLabsWuTecH said:


> 1) Put the medic in reverse



How do you put a paramedic in reverse?


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## WuLabsWuTecH (Aug 30, 2013)

Halothane said:


> How do you put a paramedic in reverse?



In the EMS breakroom at the hospital, as he has a donut in one hand and a water in the other, when you are both standing there and face to face, when he least expects it, give him a nice, hard shove in the chest.  He will usually go in reverse, but as most paramedics lack backup cameras, there is also a non-zero chance that he gets involved in an accident.  Fortunately, you are already in a hospital!


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## TheLocalMedic (Aug 30, 2013)

For the longest time a company that I used to work for never had a backing policy.  But then we hired some dumb guy who backed into a building and two vehicles within his first six months and ruined it for all of us.  They didn't terminate him (God knows why they didn't...) but we all needed to have a backer after that.  

Company that I'm at now is very strict about backing.  Get caught without a backer and you're at the very least getting a write up, second offense is terminable.


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## IslandTime (Aug 30, 2013)

For us, use of backers at the main station is strongly enforced, at the remote stations, not so much. How do you use a backer if you're bringing a rig back by yourself? For me, I prefer a backer if they know what they are doing. Unfortunately some backers look like they are doing the tango while conducting an orchestra.


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## brian328 (Aug 31, 2013)

at the last company i worked for, a backer was always required unless there was a patient in the back. we even had back up cameras and sensors on all the rigs. if a supervisor caught you backing without a backer (and no pt in the back) you could be written up or fired. it is a safety and liability thing. also, you never know if you are going to hit a curb, tree, etc and cause damage to the rig.


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## JPINFV (Aug 31, 2013)

Both companies that I've worked for required backers but didn't really enforce them. Personally, I don't care. Poles don't jump out of nowhere and you should know that the pole was there before trying to back up anyways. For lateral area, just put your wheel on the inside of the parking line. Personally, even when I had a backer, I normally didn't even look at them. Spartial awareness and proper use of mirrors does a lot.


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## unleashedfury (Aug 31, 2013)

Im a huge advocate for well educated backers/spotters. Our company has a policy to use them when operationally possible. We also have back up cameras but like it was stated earlier. Its only purpose is to see directly behind you. It dosent see to the left or right just directly behind you. So that person you didn't see in the camera but would have saw in your mirror who is now laying under your wheels... Lucy you have some explaining to do. 

My company OTOH is very laxed on the policy we have a tight bay so using a spotter in the bay is kinda near impossible.


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