# Personal vehicle lighting



## Medic29 (Mar 17, 2012)

Anyone have a list of states that allow for emergency lighting on your personal vehicle and their laws/regulations? For those who work paid or volunteer and will use their vehicle to get to scene or you witness or are at scene of an accident and no cop/EMS is on site?

I'm a Colorado resident and I've searched (maybe not hard enough lol) to find them


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 17, 2012)

POV lighting is a contentious subject that is pretty much frowned upon by the members here.  I'd suggest you take a gander over at elightbars.org.

Some thoughts I posted on another forum:
Why
When it comes to installing lights on your vehicle, the first question you must ask yourself is this: WHAT DO I NEED THE LIGHTS FOR?

I know all of the rote answers, but I challenge each and every person that is thinking about installing lights to take several moments and think long and hard about this. Ultimately, it will be your decision but there are several factors you must consider and I will try to address some of these.

Laws
Next, you need to check out your state's laws concerning vehicle lights. All states limit what color you may use (amber is generally a safe color choice) and some states even restrict what lights may be placed on the vehicle. Some states also limit when the lights may be used, and some even have further restrictions concerning visibility and coverage arcs. For example, in my state of Washington, ALL vehicle lights (including amber) MUST be approved by the state patrol (ref http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=46.37.320)

Also, if you plan to cross state lines, make sure you are aware of the other states laws concerning vehicle lights too. Just because your legal in your state doesn't mean that you will be legal in the next one.

Liability
Bet you didn't think you would have to call your insurance company before you put lights in your vehicle, but this is important. Some insurance policies have clauses where they won't cover your vehicle if you perform modifications to your vehicle's protective systems, even if your adding to them. Adding lights increases the load on your electrical system, and therefore increases the risk of shorts, fires, and other problems. In addition, your insurance company may want to charge you higher premiums because you're now using your vehicle for something that is higher risk than normal everyday use. If you don't think it's that much more of risk, then why do you think you need lights?

Also, under liability, I'm going to take a moment and address the use of arrow sticks. THESE ARE A BAD IDEA for POV's. Simply put, once you use these, you are in effect directing traffic. This may be illegal in some areas, and legal in others. Regardless of the legality, you may assume the liability for directing traffic. What this means is that if you have your arrow stick going to the left to move traffic to the left, and a vehicle gets into an accident because of your traffic revision, you may be financially liable for the damages.

Coverage
It seems like most people forget that they need to protect their vehicle from every direction. Just because headlights and taillights cover the front and the back, doesn't mean that you can ignore side protection also. This is what makes the hide-a-way systems like taillight/headlight strobes, arrow stick, and lights on the dash a bad choice. They're great for front and back protection, but offer very little if any side protection.

Quantity
How much is too much? This is a case where less is better. A single rotator or strobe, positioned on the roof will offer better coverage with less current draw than having a full blown police package setup inside of the vehicle. In addition, this will allow you to be seen without affecting or distracting the other drivers that you're worried about.

Location
I covered this briefly earlier, but am going to expound on it here. Where do you put your lights? Low profile and hidden lights are great when they are not being used, but suffer some visibility problems once they are turned on. Any light that you have on your dash or inside of your vehicle will reflect across your entire windshield or rear window, and seriously affect your visibility while driving or spotting.

A full blown lightbar, besides being expensive, is generally unnecessary and can be a bigger distraction than you realize, to you and other drivers. A full blown external lightbar has a multitude of switches and generally requires a full switch panel to effectively operate.

So what is the best balance between the visibility of an external light bar, and the low profile lack of attention from hidden lights? Simple, a light that you can mount on your roof when needed and remove when not needed.

Types
LED's, strobes, and halogen...which one do you choose? Each has their advantage and disadvantage.

LED's are the new fad in lightbars, and in my opinion, aren't all they are cracked up and hyped up to be. Yes, they are very bright, but only if you are looking directly at them. They don't reflect off of other objects the way strobes and halogen do. This makes them very good for rear protection (such as brake lights and turn signals) but not so good for front protection. In addition, while their bulbs last longer, they are more expensive to purchase and repair if something goes wrong. On the up side, they draw less current that strobes or halogens.

Strobes are the best at attracting somebody's attention when they aren't looking directly at you. The down side is that they can reflect back and affect your vision more than any other light. They tend to draw the most current, and often times require a seperate power supply for them. In addition, replacing bulbs in not always a cheap proposition. A single external strobe can provide simultaneous 360 degree protection when it flashes.

Halogen rotators have fallen out of favor because they aren't as flashy as strobes or LED's, but they are the best bang for your buck. Bulbs are cheap and easy to replace, they have a moderate current draw, and generally don't require a seperate power supply. The draw back is that the rotator can only protect you in the direction that the mirror is facing, which means that while it will cover 360 degrees, it doesn't do it at the same time. There is a time lapse as the mirror rotates the 360 degress.


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## bstone (Mar 18, 2012)

I have headlights on my car. One of the bulbs is out, so I am going to the parts store tomorrow to get a replacement bulb. Those are the only lights I have in the car.


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## bw2529 (Mar 18, 2012)

I don't know too many people who are strictly volunteer EMS providers who run lights on their personal vehicles unless they have a long distance to travel to the station or their agency allows them to respond to the scene / "first respond" (respond as a first in, non-transport, with transport on the way).

It seems more common amongst volunteer firefighters who may or may not also be involved in EMS where it is more commonly accepted that they respond directly to the scene.


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## Medic29 (Mar 18, 2012)

It wouldn't be just for responding to scene. Small towns and cities I can see that. But I live in Denver where people here suck at driving from the start (not everyone but many). Everyday there is some kind of accident and I just thought at the very least the lights would come in handy when you stop and wait for the police to get there.

@ ffemt8978 - That is a lot to consider and I will look into all of that before I decide to invest in anything and then to take the time to install. Thank you.


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## Handsome Robb (Mar 18, 2012)

Medic29 said:


> It wouldn't be just for responding to scene. Small towns and cities I can see that. But I live in Denver where people here suck at driving from the start (not everyone but many). Everyday there is some kind of accident and I just thought at the very least the lights would come in handy when you stop and wait for the police to get there.



I highly advise against this idea. 

Just my opinion.


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## truetiger (Mar 18, 2012)

Sounds like a great way to get a bad rep. I can guarantee once the crew clears the call, the first words out of their mouths will be "who the **** was that idiot!?!?"


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## Akulahawk (Mar 19, 2012)

Unless I'm "working" with an outfit that's willing to take the liability of making my POV into an Emergency Vehicle, I'm not going to outfit my POV with extra emergency lighting. If I were to do so on my own, it'd be to simply augment my amber turn-signal/hazard lights with strobes and nothing more. If anything, I'd rather put a better communication system in... oh, wait. I did! 

You see, once my car becomes an EV, it is subject to annual inspections by the CHP and must carry all the stuff required by the CHP... Then there's the whole coordination of insurance if I get into a crash. Am I covered by my own insurance or the organization's?

IMHO, don't do it unless you have clear legal authority to do it.


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## Handsome Robb (Mar 19, 2012)

truetiger said:


> I can guarantee once the crew clears the call, the first words out of their mouths will be "who the **** was that idiot!?!?"



I was thinking the exact same thing. 

Not to mention in a city like Denver I highly doubt you're going to be waiting any obscene amount of time for emergency services to show up. 

The fact that people suck at driving should motivate you to keep driving and stay in your vehicle rather than wandering around on the side of the road obstructing traffic and risking getting hit by a car.


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## sir.shocksalot (Mar 19, 2012)

Yeah, don't do it, if you live in BFE and work for a volly fire department I would understand getting lighting and might not make fun of you for it. In Denver, I promise if you show up/ or present at a scene you will told to go away, heck you might get the cops called on you. Recently we have had some people using lighting on their vehicle to pull people over and rob them or sexually assault them. There was also one individual who had their face plastered all over the hospitals who was posing as an EMT and showing up to scenes with a bunch of stolen equipment. 

Don't do it, I promise it will not be worth it. In Denver there is absolutely no need for lights, or to stop at accidents in general. What are you going to do there anyway? Anything that is worth stopping a doing you need equipment for anyway, also you will need medical direction to do it, which you don't have while not working. If you see a wreck, do your citizenly duty and call 911, there is no need to be a hero.


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## Melclin (Mar 19, 2012)

If you, even once or twice, turned up in some whacker-mobile to sit next to an accident with a big grin on your face saying, "I'm helping", I very much doubt you will ever be able to get a job where you aren't already known as, "that idiot". 

I've never bought the whole, but "why not if it helps" or "I just thought it would be useful", argument. Charity still involves a certain amount of cost/benefit. You wouldn't give your life to decrease someone's chances breaking a nail. Because its not worth it. No matter how nice you are. By the same token, people don't invest potentially thousands of dollars, ruin their car, give their time and effort, risk litigation, maybe even risk their lives _for absolutely no compensation_, because they just want to help. People do it because they get something out of it that has nothing to do with wanting to help. They do it because they are unhealthily obsessed with the myth of the hero paramedic. They wanna feel part of the team. They want some bizarre adult equivalent of a child's honorary sherif's badge won after dragging their unconscious mother from a burning house. They wanna look cool. 

Maybe thats not you. I'm having a crack at the idea, not you. I obviously have no idea who you are. But I'd challenge you to really ask yourself why you want those lights. If you're honest, it probably has bugger all to do with traffic safety.


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## mycrofft (Mar 19, 2012)

A small nine-LED flashlight and six flares, plus a safety vest in my trunk with my CERT gear.


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## SoCal911 (Mar 19, 2012)

Just don't do it, the first thing out of my mouth would be for you to shut the lights off and move away from my scene. People already stop and stare at everything anyways, no need for them to see captain Ricky rescue - wanna be hero with his security guard light bar. 

I'll tell you a story, we had a slip and fall 911 call at a mall. The engine and my rig pull in and this security guard in his little ford escape with his lights on HAULS A** past us and through the parking lot to get there first. So we pull up and see this dork with his lights on and his first aid kit out, what can he effectively do with a first aid kit? Nothing. But he can make my patient worse because he in effect caused her to move her neck - further damaging her cervical spine. So now we have to pull in behind this moron, and walk our gurney around the truck and his rescue mobile. These are the people that are so eager to "help" that they injure our patients or make our job a nightmare. First thing fire does is ask him to move his car and leave or back away. Guess what? He lost his job, 1. For hauling through the parking lot and getting in our way. 2. Further injuring our patient by asking her to try and get up with a fractured pelvis. It's just not worth it, not matter what it is, you sitting there with your lights will not benefit the patient in the 5 minutes it takes for a unit to get on scene. It will actually take longer for us to get there, because once they see your lights traffic will back up and we will have to fight through it.


Just don't do it, you'll be that guy we all make fun of. Do you run around with a fanny pack on full of first aid stuff too? Maybe some trauma sheers in your shirt pocket? 

My guess is you wanna be cool and show off the lights and tell people you know "first aid". If you wanna feel cool, go to Emt school and get a job as an emt. But don't be another Ricky rescue that makes our job any harder than it has to be, please?


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## TatuICU (Mar 19, 2012)

Negative ghost rider.  Just a terrible idea from top to bottom. It may serve its actual intended purpose perhaps 0.0005% of the time.  The rest, it just makes you look like a moron, insures you'll never ever get a job with the service responding....ever, and more importantly puts people in danger.


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## Level1pedstech (Mar 19, 2012)

Unless you are authorized by an agency to respond POV your really looking at a whole list of potential negative consequences up to and including arrest and a big fat ticket. Rural agencies allowing POV response give specific guidelines that responders must follow,usually. Now in rural Washington Bubba might run more lights on his F-350 than the responding engine but thats Bubba and thats rural Washington Bubbas chief probably has issued cards to his responders in accordance with the state patrol and will chew Bubba a new one if he is out useing his lights for anything but official agency business. 

 Now your in Denver, can you really not see what a tool you would be if you show up with your lit up POV even if its just to block traffic. We should give you the benefit of being new (please tell us you are) and assume you do not want to be "that guy". Even in the rural areas every police agency is different in how thier officers react to POV lighting and with the abuse that can and has taken place its not really well thought of anywhere.

 Full disclosure my old department allowed lights in our POV's but it became a real big problem when certain members forgot that the green lights are asking for people to yield as a courtesy. Residents knew what the green lights mean and would gladly yield but like everything else one or two people abused the privledge. We also had to follow WSP guidelines which meant nothing other than the color green,nothing flashing and never more than 10 miles over the speed limit and that was reserved for the most serious incidents.


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## bigbaldguy (Mar 19, 2012)

Turn it down a notch. The guy asked a question, answer it politely or offer your opinion and let's leave out the harsher adjectives please.


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## dmc2007 (Mar 19, 2012)

bstone said:


> I have headlights on my car. One of the bulbs is out, so I am going to the parts store tomorrow to get a replacement bulb. Those are the only lights I have in the car.



I also have taillights and a third brake light on mine.  Clearly I'm a whacker.


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## Handsome Robb (Mar 19, 2012)

SoCal911 said:


> not benefit the patient in the 5 minutes it takes for a unit to get on scene. It will actually take longer for us to get there, because once they see your lights traffic will back up and we will have to fight through it.



This is a very good point. The accident doesn't help traffic then add in flashy lights on a random car and people are going to rubberneck even more to try and figure out why a regular car is lit up like a christmas tree. 



bigbaldguy said:


> Turn it down a notch. The guy asked a question, answer it politely or offer your opinion and let's leave out the harsher adjectives please.



Oh no...they are starting to turn BBG to the dark side!!!


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## bigbaldguy (Mar 19, 2012)

NVRob said:


> Oh no...they are starting to turn BBG to the dark side!!!



Hey with enough lights on your car there is no dark side, it's all bright up in here


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## SliceOfLife (Mar 20, 2012)

I have had lights in my car since 2005.  In MA you need a permit issued by the registry that's signed off by your chief.  Blue for police and Red for fire.  

As for liability, that will varry from state to state.  Our red light permits look exactly like our car registration but has the FD listed under the insurance part and say RED LIGHT PERMIT on them.  We have had two members get in accidents and it's the department that pays out.  That is of course if you are using the lights while authorized to do so.  Responding to a call from outside the town lines when your not on the roster...not so much.

The couple accidents I have come across while off duty and out of town I just use my hazards.  When I do, on rare occasions, respond in my POV to the station or the scene it's with extreme due regard.


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## Remeber343 (Mar 20, 2012)

Slice, are you paid or volley?


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## paramagician (Mar 20, 2012)

why would anyone want lights on their personal vehicle? screams ricky rescue. just sayin...


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## SliceOfLife (Mar 20, 2012)

Remeber343 said:


> Slice, are you paid or volley?



Both...sorta.

For a long time we got a per-diem for a 12 hour ambulance shift and then a set amount per call.  Now, just recently, we are hourly on the ambulance side.  But the fire side is still on the old system.


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## Medic29 (Mar 20, 2012)

ffemt8978 said:


> POV lighting is a contentious subject that is pretty much frowned upon by the members here.



I've noticed after reading through all the posts. While there were a few crappy answers from people many of you had honest input that I appreciated a lot. After consideration and cost ratio to actual need I've decided that I will not outfit my car. EVEN IF IT WAS an idea that isn't frowned on, I just don't come across to enough to justify getting them. 

Again thank you got the input. 

P.S what is a ricky rescue? I'm not new but I also didn't get into being an EMT to be a hero. If I wanted to be a hero I'd be in law enforcement or a fire fighter (people who put their lives on the line to save others). They IMO are true heros.


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## truetiger (Mar 20, 2012)

Medic29 said:


> . If I wanted to be a hero I'd be in law enforcement or a fire fighter (people who put their lives on the line to save others). They IMO are true heros.


There are no living heroes ....


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 20, 2012)

Medic29 said:


> I've noticed after reading through all the posts. While there were a few crappy answers from people many of you had honest input that I appreciated a lot. After consideration and cost ratio to actual need I've decided that I will not outfit my car. EVEN IF IT WAS an idea that isn't frowned on, I just don't come across to enough to justify getting them.
> 
> Again thank you got the input.
> 
> P.S what is a ricky rescue? I'm not new but I also didn't get into being an EMT to be a hero. If I wanted to be a hero I'd be in law enforcement or a fire fighter (people who put their lives on the line to save others). They IMO are true heros.



http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Ricky Rescue

And I appreciate the feedback on the post.


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## SliceOfLife (Mar 20, 2012)

LOL I guess I'm a wacker because I do have sheers on my pants.  Sorry, whenever I don't have them I need them, so.....

....but no batman utility belt, although sometimes I could really use a Leatherman


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## VirginiaEMT (Mar 20, 2012)

I know this is a very old post but this first paragraph is not factual at all. I am a P&C insurance agent and do EMS 24 hours a week. If this is true you would have to call when you put a new stereo in your car, a DVD playing system etc. This has absolutley nothing to do with your cars safety systems.( if you unhook your ABS or disable you airbags, then you're screwed) It's also not considered higher risk because you MUST obey ALL traffic laws just like the guy without a light. I guess in 2004 when this was first written people weren't using strobes in their windshield.



> Liability
> Bet you didn't think you would have to call your insurance company before you put lights in your vehicle, but this is important. Some insurance policies have clauses where they won't cover your vehicle if you perform modifications to your vehicle's protective systems, even if your adding to them. Adding lights increases the load on your electrical system, and therefore increases the risk of shorts, fires, and other problems. In addition, your insurance company may want to charge you higher premiums because you're now using your vehicle for something that is higher risk than normal everyday use. If you don't think it's that much more of risk, then why do you think you need lights?
> 
> Also, under liability, I'm going to take a moment and address the use of arrow sticks. THESE ARE A BAD IDEA for POV's. Simply put, once you use these, you are in effect directing traffic. This may be illegal in some areas, and legal in others. Regardless of the legality, you may assume the liability for directing traffic. What this means is that if you have your arrow stick going to the left to move traffic to the left, and a vehicle gets into an accident because of your traffic revision, you may be financially liable for the damages.
> ...


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 20, 2012)

VirginiaEMT said:


> I know this is a very old post but this first paragraph is not factual at all. I am a P&C insurance agent and do EMS 24 hours a week. If this is true you would have to call when you put a new stereo in your car, a DVD playing system etc. This has absolutley nothing to do with your cars safety systems.( if you unhook your ABS or disable you airbags, then you're screwed) It's also not considered higher risk because you MUST obey ALL traffic laws just like the guy without a light. I guess in 2004 when this was first written people weren't using strobes in their windshield.



That is why I said "some insurance companies"...not all.  It is also why I said vehicle protective systems, which has nothing to do with replacing a stereo.  But it is good to know that the insurance companies don't care if you are using your vehicle in a high risk scenario to block an accident scene.  Learn something new every day.


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## Tigger (Mar 20, 2012)

ffemt8978 said:


> nd remove when not needed.
> 
> Types
> LED's, strobes, and halogen...which one do you choose? Each has their advantage and disadvantage.
> ...



Time to update this last section!


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## bigbaldguy (Mar 20, 2012)

Called my insurance guy (awesome agent by the way). He says there is nothing in my policy that says I couldn't put lights on my vehicle however if I was involved in an accident while using them they would pay out on my liability and uninsured/underinsured but would not pay out on my comprehensive. I would have to get a separate rider. I have a very good insurance policy through one of the major companies. For those of you who do have lights and use em you might want to talk to your agent because this could make for a very expensive insurance "gotcha".


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 20, 2012)

bigbaldguy said:


> Called my insurance guy (awesome agent by the way). He says there is nothing in my policy that says I couldn't put lights on my vehicle however if I was involved in an accident while using them they would pay out on my liability and uninsured/underinsured but would not pay out on my comprehensive. I would have to get a separate rider. I have a very good insurance policy through one of the major companies. For those of you who do have lights and use em you might want to talk to your agent because this could make for a very expensive insurance "gotcha".



That was the point I was trying to make in my post.  Call them beforehand so that you and they are on the same page.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 20, 2012)

Tigger said:


> Time to update this last section!



How so?  I still stand by those statements.


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## VirginiaEMT (Mar 20, 2012)

ffemt8978 said:


> That is why I said "some insurance companies"...not all.  It is also why I said vehicle protective systems, which has nothing to do with replacing a stereo.  But it is good to know that the insurance companies don't care if you are using your vehicle in a high risk scenario to block an accident scene.  Learn something new every day.



Just saying it's not even a question that is asked.. However, we do ask if you drive to work... LOL!! How else would I get there??? I have a perfectly good car, so I'm not going to walk..


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 20, 2012)

VirginiaEMT said:


> Just saying it's not even a question that is asked.. However, we do ask if you drive to work... LOL!! How else would I get there??? I have a perfectly good car, so I'm not going to walk..



So I guess my question then becomes:

If you add the vehicle lighting, then your car gets damaged in a secondary accident while you are stopped at the scene of an accident with your lights flashing, will the insurance company pay for all damages, or will they claim that you were using the vehicle in a manner they were not aware of and did not approve of?


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## Tigger (Mar 20, 2012)

ffemt8978 said:


> How so?  I still stand by those statements.



LEDs have advanced to the point of being at the very least equal in all respects of performance when compared to strobes and halogens. Generation three "super LED" lightheaded are at least as visible off angle as strobes are. They draw significantly less current, have no moving parts, better flash patterns, and have a very slim profile allowing for less intrusive mounting options. Halogens are of course still cheaper but not all that effective during the day, unlike recent LEDs. A vehicle outfitted with all LEDS may be more expensive upfront but the lack of draw on the electrical system and relative infrequent need of service will pay for itself. 

Sadly my company has outfitted our new ambulances with halogen flashers that do not hold a candle to the older trucks all LED packages.


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## Medic29 (Mar 20, 2012)

Forgot our soldiers in my heros list. New post cause I haven't figured out how to edit on the iPhone.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 20, 2012)

Some of our local law enforcement uses the LED light bars, or even the low profile mounting systems.  I still stand by my assertion that they are not necessarily all they are claimed to be.

Yes, LEDs are very bright when you look at them, but they still have issues attracting a drivers attention when the driver is NOT looking at them.  Even in the night time, the LED light bars do not light up the interior of the car in front of you nearly as much as a strobe or halogen does.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 20, 2012)

Medic29 said:


> Forgot our soldiers in my heros list. New post cause I haven't figured out how to edit on the iPhone.



You can only edit for 15 minutes after your post is made.


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## VirginiaEMT (Mar 20, 2012)

ffemt8978 said:


> So I guess my question then becomes:
> 
> If you add the vehicle lighting, then your car gets damaged in a secondary accident while you are stopped at the scene of an accident with your lights flashing, will the insurance company pay for all damages, or will they claim that you were using the vehicle in a manner they were not aware of and did not approve of?



I would say they would pay the claim definitely. We pay claims for accidents caused by speeding, DUI's,etc. all of the time. We are more concerned if the business is used for business or pleasure. As an example, I use my car for my business but I pay for a business class on my insurance. If I am responding to my agency as a volunteer, that is personal use. Now, if you were in you vehicle and you are getting paid to use it, or if your cheif would ask you to go pick up something at the store and you use your own car to do it, your insurance company would be primary but the departments "non-owned" auto coverage would pay anything over your limits of liability. Think of it this way; if you park in the middle of the street for any reason, and you cause an accident because of it,your insurance company is going to pay for the damages. They may not be your insurance company for long but they will definitely pay the claim.

I would be more than happy to post a copy of the insurance contract language but it would be for Virginia only, when I get to work tomorrow.


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## VirginiaEMT (Mar 20, 2012)

bigbaldguy said:


> Called my insurance guy (awesome agent by the way). He says there is nothing in my policy that says I couldn't put lights on my vehicle however if I was involved in an accident while using them they would pay out on my liability and uninsured/underinsured but would not pay out on my comprehensive. I would have to get a separate rider. I have a very good insurance policy through one of the major companies. For those of you who do have lights and use em you might want to talk to your agent because this could make for a very expensive insurance "gotcha".



Be sure to ask him if he has him if has CIC,CPCU,CLU, CRIS designations. If he does that means that he put his time in has as much training in the insurance business as the best Paramedic on this forum, who has the most training in his/her field, has. That means he has done his time in the classroom and knows insurance law. And if he does, you have a GREAT agent.. And when an agent tells you something, including me, ask for it in writing. 

Everyone of my policyholders thinks they have the best coverage, and they do, but they have know idea and neither do you. You have to trust your agent and hope he knows what he's talking about; again, clients have no idea, they simply think they do. Sit down a read an insurance policy and all of the legal mumbo jumbo including exclusions, definitions, coverge limits, etc. and you will realize you have no idea what you have. So if you trust your agent, stick with him because that what it takes.

You know you have a good agent, when he is man enough to admit that he doesn't know every answer and is willing to pick up the phone and call his underwriter, and any agent worth is weight would want to cover HIS butt by doing this and getting it in writing. (email)


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## Handsome Robb (Mar 20, 2012)

VirginiaEMT said:


> Be sure to ask him if he has him if has CIC,CPCU,CLU, CRIS designations.



What? :blink:


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 20, 2012)

VirginiaEMT said:


> I would say they would pay the claim definitely. We pay claims for accidents caused by speeding, DUI's,etc. all of the time. We are more concerned if the business is used for business or pleasure. As an example, I use my car for my business but I pay for a business class on my insurance. If I am responding to my agency as a volunteer, that is personal use. Now, if you were in you vehicle and you are getting paid to use it, or if your cheif would ask you to go pick up something at the store and you use your own car to do it, your insurance company would be primary but the departments "non-owned" auto coverage would pay anything over your limits of liability. Think of it this way; if you park in the middle of the street for any reason, and you cause an accident because of it,your insurance company is going to pay for the damages. They may not be your insurance company for long but they will definitely pay the claim.
> 
> I would be more than happy to post a copy of the insurance contract language but it would be for Virginia only, when I get to work tomorrow.



I don't think that is necessary or even appropriate for here, because it would be a regional and company issue (wouldn't want anyone to get in trouble for it).


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## DesertMedic66 (Mar 20, 2012)

Since I've been on this forum this is the most productive thread about POV lights.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 20, 2012)

firefite said:


> Since I've been on this forum this is the most productive thread about POV lights.



Yeah, I'm pleasantly surprised by it too.


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## bigbaldguy (Mar 20, 2012)

Just a random article I found while googling the topic.

http://www.ehow.com/list_6815258_virginia-laws-emergency-lights-povs.html

About three paragraphs in it says

"To use emergency lights on a POV, volunteers will have to get authorization to do so from their local law enforcement agencies or superintendent. They will also have to have an insurance rider on their private insurance policies."

This is very close to what my agent told me regarding the rules here in Texas. 

I think I said that my policy won't pay out for comprehensive coverage earlier I meant to say collision.


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## bigbaldguy (Mar 20, 2012)

VirginiaEMT said:


> Be sure to ask him if he has him if has CIC,CPCU,CLU, CRIS designations.



I hate looking up abbreviations. There's always a million possibilities you have to sift through.


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## Tigger (Mar 21, 2012)

ffemt8978 said:


> Some of our local law enforcement uses the LED light bars, or even the low profile mounting systems.  I still stand by my assertion that they are not necessarily all they are claimed to be.
> 
> Yes, LEDs are very bright when you look at them, but they still have issues attracting a drivers attention when the driver is NOT looking at them.  Even in the night time, the LED light bars do not light up the interior of the car in front of you nearly as much as a strobe or halogen does.



Interior setups cannot hope to do a good job off axis since they are set back inside of the vehicle. LED lightbars have gotten a lot better in the last two years, I can park a new and old truck next to each other and the difference is immediately noticeable. And if "off-brand" products are being used, well forget about it.


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## Cup of Joe (Mar 21, 2012)

Tigger said:


> Interior setups cannot hope to do a good job off axis since they are set back inside of the vehicle. LED lightbars have gotten a lot better in the last two years, I can park a new and old truck next to each other and the difference is immediately noticeable. And if "off-brand" products are being used, well forget about it.



One of our ambulances still has a rotator light bar on top of the cab and halogen squares on the box, and another has all LEDs in the same setup.  I would much prefer the LEDs to the halogens when at an MVA on the side of the highway with everyone driving into the setting sun.


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## Miscusi (Mar 21, 2012)

such an interesting topic, I think that lights on personal vehicles are a great idea for those responders who are constantly "on call" in some small town or less populated area who might be summoned in the middle of the night to respond to a MCI where there are a very limited amount of qualified responders...

Much like how here in NY, MDs have special plates to allow parking almost anywhere.

but then, in places like that, there wouldnt be any large amount of traffic to deal with anyway so lights are not really that necessary.

I think in big cities, there is enough emergency staff working that no one else needs lights..


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## WuLabsWuTecH (Mar 21, 2012)

The way our department works is that those people who have lights and sirens on their car can have them, and are covered by the department's insurance when using them.  The chief has to approve each member to use them and only if he trusts you to use them judiciously an with "due regard" will he approve that member to use them.  After that, a LT who is trained checks your vehicle out every 6 months to make sure that everything is functioning (brakes, lights, battery load, turn signals, emergency lights, emergency siren, etc.)

It's a very rural area and most of the guys only use it when approaching a tractor or when they get into the village where the firehouse is.  Otherwise, they are not getting there any faster by going lights and sirens when there is no one else around on the country roads.

I personally choose not to have them because A) I don't want to pay for it and B) I don't see a need.  If I get into town and catch the lights wrong, I park my car in a fire lane next to the red light, put on a yellow vest, and proceed to walk/jog to the station for the 2 blocks I am away.  Everyone in town knows our yellow vests and yields to us when we're on foot; at night, there is no one around anyway; and my car is parked in a fire lane, but since I'm on the department we're not going to be using that anytime soon anyway!

Plus it's good exercise


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## VirginiaEMT (Mar 21, 2012)

Miscusi said:


> such an interesting topic, I think that lights on personal vehicles are a great idea for those responders who are constantly "on call" in some small town or less populated area who might be summoned in the middle of the night to respond to a MCI where there are a very limited amount of qualified responders...
> 
> Much like how here in NY, MDs have special plates to allow parking almost anywhere.
> 
> ...



I agree. In the little town where I volunteer they help. I have used mine probably 2 times this year. On Sunday of this week I was sitting at our kitchen table and our tones dropped for a 5th call (5 within 3 minutes), HELP NEEDED. I live about 2.5 miles from the station so I turned on my strobe and proceeded to the station. In the sections of roads that are 2 lanes, most people will pull to the right to let you move on, or if you are sitting at a light and need to turn they will let you proceed first. I was able to get to the station a little quicker, grab an ambulance and meet the fire dept. on scene with a transport unit. I also respond to the scene if there is a driver at the station and they need an AIC, we will just meet on scene and then go back and get my car when we're done. I am also career staff at another EMS agency where I run at night and I never use my light for them because if I'm not on the clock I don't go because it's way too far and a flashing light would not help me get there quick enough to even be helpful.


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## EMTHokie (Mar 21, 2012)

Where I volunteer the only person allowed to have lights and sirens in a POV is the current Fire Chief and the Fire Police (basically they show up and direct traffic, can only use Lights on scene). Chief can get them because they pretty much have to show up to every fire call even from home. Usually though they don't even bother and just race to the scene or fire house without them.


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## VirginiaEMT (Mar 21, 2012)

NVRob said:


> What? :blink:




Just trying to make the point that if the agent has these designations, then he is well versed in insurance law, similar to a paramedic that continues learning and obtaining knowledge after they are licensed and adds ACLS, CCEMT-P, behind there name.

If an agent hasn't spent time in these classes, there is no way he/she knows insurance law to the extent they should. They teach very little when you take classes to prepare for testing for your license.


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## VirginiaEMT (Mar 21, 2012)

bigbaldguy said:


> I hate looking up abbreviations. There's always a million possibilities you have to sift through.



CIC - Certified Insurance Counselor
CPCU- Chartered Property and Casualty Underwriter
CLU- Chartered Life Underwriter
CRIS- Construction Risk Insurance Specialist

Each means that the agent has spent hours upon hours getting better at what they do.


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## VirginiaEMT (Mar 21, 2012)

ffemt8978 said:


> I don't think that is necessary or even appropriate for here, because it would be a regional and company issue (wouldn't want anyone to get in trouble for it).




I agree. Just to let you know, I called one of the carriers I represent, a HUGE carrier, and verified what I stated on the forum about coverage. *I am correct, they WOULD NOT deny a claim if I am in my personal vehicle responding to a call with my strobe on.* Like any other situation I must obey state and county laws. Even if I didn't they would still pay the claim but I know they would drop me like a bad habit after paying the claim, just like if I got caught drinking and driving. BASED ON VIRGINIA LAW!!

-UNLESS SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDED IN YOUR POLICY LANGUAGE, YOU HAVE A SIGNED AND VALID CONTRACT, AND YOU HAVE DONE YOUR PART BY PAYING YOUR PREMIUMS LIKE PROMISED ,THE INSURANCE CARRIER MUST PAY THE CLAIM-


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## bigbaldguy (Mar 21, 2012)

VirginiaEMT said:


> CIC - Certified Insurance Counselor
> CPCU- Chartered Property and Casualty Underwriter
> CLU- Chartered Life Underwriter
> CRIS- Construction Risk Insurance Specialist
> ...



Oh sure now you spell it out after I spent 30 minutes on wiki sifting through them.

hmmm "certified interim cadet" nah that can't be right. Uh "commander in chief" nope. Oh maybe it's "certified irrigation counselor" lol :blink:

http://www.acronymfinder.com/CIC.html


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