# Cna



## ulrik (Aug 25, 2008)

they are offereing CNA in my high school for free, would it be a good choice to persue it? 


p.s. on a side note, i got a sheet from my english teacher on proper grammar. hopefully that helps with my problem.:wacko:


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## JJR512 (Aug 25, 2008)

Sure, why not? Anything that teaches you more aspects of patient care is probably a good thing. Plus, it can open up new jop opportunities. For example, most of the hospitals around Baltimore will higher someone with EMT-B + CNA as an ER Tech.


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## KempoEMT (Aug 25, 2008)

what is CNA?


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## TransportJockey (Aug 25, 2008)

KempoEMT said:


> what is CNA?



Certified Nursing Assistant is what I'm assuming


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## KEVD18 (Aug 25, 2008)

it wont help you in any way in the field. its a completely different mission.

cna's are responsible for assisting patients with the activities of daily life. hygiene, wardrobe, nutrition. these skill really havent got much of a place in ems.

thats not to say its a useless license to have. in the metro boston area, lost of emergency department technician positions require/prefer a cna's license. you could also work on one of the floors or in a nursing home. its also part of the nursing program, so if your plan is to ultimately carry on to rn, you'll have a leg up there. but it wont help you any on an ambulance, unless your patient has an accident.....


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## VentMedic (Aug 25, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> it wont help you in any way in the field. its a completely different mission.
> 
> cna's are responsible for assisting patients with the activities of daily life. hygiene, wardrobe, nutrition. these skill really havent got much of a place in ems.
> 
> thats not to say its a useless license to have. in the metro boston area, lost of emergency department technician positions require/prefer a cna's license. you could also work on one of the floors or in a nursing home. its also part of the nursing program, so if your plan is to ultimately carry on to rn, you'll have a leg up there. but it wont help you any on an ambulance, unless your patient has an accident.....


 
It definitely is worthwhile. Depending on the CNA education you get, vital signs will be part of your mastery. You will do hundreds of BPs, pulse rates and temperature of all type as well as pulse oximetry. The average CNA will see more patients during 1 shift than many working EMTs will see in one month. The hands on experience from working with may different types of patients with many different disease processes will give you an opportunity to observe changes from normal function. This will be helpful when you start doing assessments as an EMT. 

As a CNA, you can also specialize into ED, OR, Psych, Neuro, Spinal Cord, Rehab and Ortho. You may also be asked to expand your duties to include EKG and phlebotomy depending on your place of employment. You will also be introduced to moving patients with many lines and tubes as well as surgical apparatus such as halos and fixators. Patients that are post op from spinal surgery There will also be licensed professionals of several types around that can answer questions if you want to learn a little more. 

Learning such things as nutrition, hygiene and other personal needs will also make you more attentive when assessing patients in their environment. Many EMT-Ps and EMTs would never think to ask when the patient last ate or if a baby had many diaper changes over the past few hours. 

The things that you will learn as a CNA are many of the things I tell EMT-Bs to observe when they are doing BLS transfers. Too many do not take advantage of learning about different disease processes and different assessments while these patients are in the back of the truck. It is also embarrassing when the CNA has to help the Paramedic in the ED do a manual BP. But, in all fairness, the CNA probably has much more experience in doing this. 

The CNA certification is what you make of it. It can open doors for some great entry level jobs which may pay for you to extend your education.


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## Ridryder911 (Aug 25, 2008)

CNA = EMT in the nursing profession. 

R/r 911


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## reaper (Aug 25, 2008)

I agree with Vent, But be careful. FL has a lot of two week CNA classes put on by Nursing Homes. They just want warm bodies to cover shifts and don't teach you very well.
Working in a NH can be a great experience for any EMT or Medic. You will learn how to deal with the Geriatric pt and you will see some many disease processes. This is one part of EMS that is often overlooked and not taught in classes.

I worked as an EMT for a retirement village that had it's own EMS first response, for nights. This included NH's, assisted living, Apts, and regular homes. I am so glad that I had that job. I learned how to interact with older pt's and how to deal with different medical problems. We worked 12 hr shifts 8p-8a. You were the only responder. If needed you would call county 911, for transport. A lot of our calls were minor stuff and it kept the 911 service from being tied up on small stuff. 
I think it was great experience for EMT's. You learn how to work a code by yourself, until help could arrive. We had a wide SOP, under MD at the village. You were trained by the MD for things that you would never be able to do on a transport service. The MD was very strict and his training was half of what you were taught, when going through medic school.

This is a great type of job to have, while in medic school. Slow nights were great for studying!!


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## JJR512 (Aug 25, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> ...but it wont help you any on an ambulance, unless your patient has an accident.....



Even if that were the only reason, that's still a great reason. I mean, what (working) EMT-whatever hasn't ever had a patient who had to pee, poop, or barf in the back of the ambulance?


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## VentMedic (Aug 25, 2008)

reaper said:


> FL has a lot of two week CNA classes put on by Nursing Homes. They just want warm bodies to cover shifts and don't teach you very well.


 

2 weeks of training?

Warm bodies to cover shifts?

Where have I heard that before?   

Combine CNA and EMT you will have at least 4 weeks of training.


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## reaper (Aug 25, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> 2 weeks of training?
> 
> Warm bodies to cover shifts?
> 
> ...



Thn you could have a SUPER EMT!!


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## Jon (Aug 25, 2008)

Ulrik,

If you are thinking about working in a hospital setting - it is a good cert to have... as some have already said, the skill set isn't totally seperate from the EMT skill set - lifting/moving/transferring as well as vital signs.

I don't think it will help you get a job in the prehospital enviroment, but I don't think it would hurt, and if it is free, why not?


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## VentMedic (Aug 25, 2008)

Jon said:


> Ulrik,
> 
> the skill set isn't totally seperate from the EMT skill set - lifting/moving/transferring as well as vital signs.


 
Those are the same and with more hands on experience for the CNA. You would also be very surprised to know how much lifting, moving and transferring a CNA does with many different types of patients attached to many different types of equipment. They are responsible for moving patients from many different postions to many other positions. I would also match just about any of our CNAs with any EMT or Paramedic when it comes to taking vitals. Once you are accustomed to doing 50 - 80 sets of vitals per shift on every imaginable type of patient, you get rather good at it. Our CNAs are also part of the code team to assist with equipment, compressions and transferring. All are CPR trained and know what a BVM is. They are also pretty decent with people skills when compared to some of the EMTs and Paramedics that come to pick up the patients. Infection control another part of their education that is not emphasized in EMT training to any great extent. When you are taking care of 20 - 30 patients on any given shift, one has to be very conscious of these things. 

Extrication, scene safety and a few other very emergency specific skills do differ.


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## fortsmithman (Aug 31, 2008)

My mother took a CNA course in the early 70's but her course was 2 yrs in length it was 1970-72 when she took it.  so CNA training must of went downhill since the early 70's.  Here in the NWT we don't have CNA"S anymore they became LPN's.


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## daedalus (Aug 31, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> 2 weeks of training?
> 
> Warm bodies to cover shifts?
> 
> ...



I had a good laugh! Imagine that.....

Anyways.. You can have an alphabet soup of CNA, EMT, EKG, Medical assistant, or whatever suits you. The sum of all of these is equal to any one of them, and gets you no closer to an advanced medical education. Cool, you can wipe an butt, splint a finger, take an EKG you cant read, and keep charting in a doctors office. But can you describe the krebs cycle or DNA transcription? You took all these cert classes but never learned your basic sciences for advanced medical education.


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## daimere (Aug 31, 2008)

> Many EMT-Ps and EMTs would never think to ask when the patient last ate or if a baby had many diaper changes over the past few hours.



I don't know about those EMTs but we are taught to ask the last oral intake and when.


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## JJR512 (Aug 31, 2008)

daimere said:


> I don't know about those EMTs but we are taught to ask the last oral intake and when.



Maybe those EMTs were only taught to get a SAMPE history while we were taught to get a SAMPLE history?

...
Anyone have any thoughts, opinions, or comments of any kind on the American Red Cross's CNA course?


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## daedalus (Aug 31, 2008)

The time you save from not taking a American Red Cross CNA course could be used earning overtime at work or taking a chemistry class at a college/university. Your already an EMT. What do you think you will gain from taking a CNA class?


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## JJR512 (Sep 1, 2008)

daedalus said:


> The time you save from not taking a American Red Cross CNA course could be used earning overtime at work or taking a chemistry class at a college/university. Your already an EMT. What do you think you will gain from taking a CNA class?



Oh my god, I can't believe you just asked me that. What do I think I will gain from it? How about better patient care skills? How about all the things that VentMedic mentioned earlier? How about the ER Tech job that I mentioned earlier?

How about because I'm leaning very heavily towards going into critical care nursing, rather than attempting to become a flight paramedic like I originally planned?


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## daedalus (Sep 1, 2008)

Yes, I did just ask you that. Critical care nursing is a profession, a profession that requires in-depth knowledge of anatomy, physiology, biology, chemistry, pharmacology, and pathophysiology. You already learned how to take a blood pressure and you should know how to move patients. Why waste time in a CNA class? You should be in college. Ventmedic and rid/ryder will tell you themselves if they had a buck for everyone taking an EMT class or a CNA class who said they want to be a MD or RN, they would be rich. Your nursing program will put you through a quick CNA class anyways.


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## Ridryder911 (Sep 1, 2008)

True, but CNA will honored & recognized more in the medical field (especially nursing) over than the EMT level. I do agree take as many college level courses as possible, 

R/r 911


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## MMiz (Sep 1, 2008)

I don't mean to rock the boat, but on a long-term cost/benefit analysis I can't see having CNA training/experience being helpful.  From what I know, the CNA is like the Medical First Responder/EMT-Basic of the EMS profession.  Much of what you learn is common sense.  You learn the basics of patient care, assessment, movement, and treatment.

I'd think that a more traditional class towards one's ultimate goal would be a better use of time and efforts.


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## VentMedic (Sep 1, 2008)

As a CNA you can get a job just about anywhere and in many different areas both inside and outside of the hospital. CNAs can be provided a little additional training to work in almost any specialty unit in the hospital. Since their cert is recognized more widely in the hospital, their present skills can easily be expanded on as their job description calls for. EKG, Phlebotomy and ortho assist are just a few options. As a CNA, you may have more choice to choose the facility that best suits your needs and ambition while going to college. One can also become a personal CNA and do private duty for one patient. That can be a great way to make extra money. 

Our CNAs in the Rehab facility, which has many spinal cord injury patients, become masters of moving with and without equipment. But then, these patients are also on med-surg floors and moving is necessary there also. They become very familiar with technology such as working with ventilators even if they can not make changes. As an RRT, I am not going to hang around the shower room waiting for 30 ventilator patients to be bathed. 

They also become masters at working with bariatric patients for daily care, moving and emergencies. Very few doctors know how to quickly get a baratric patient positioned in a code. We all know what happens when an EMS crew gets a call for an 800 pound patient. For the CNAs, this is just part of their day if they are working in a center that receives these patients. 

All of our CNAs have CPR and many do paticipate in CODES. They also know how to stop bleeding until a licensed person arrives since a line, venous or arteriel, can become dislodged or disconnected. They are trained to recognize basic signs of problems just like the EMT but with more disease specifics for their population. The RNs will give each of their CNAs a report at the beginning of the shifts.

Being a CNA just allows you to see many more patients, get more hands on skills (patient skills and not extrication), understand how different disease processes present and learn from licensed professionals. Many EMTs do not get enough one-one patient time to develop skills that deal with disease specific issues. For some, it is actually uncomfortable when they are trying to move a very deformed or delicate patient such as those with end stage rheumatoid arthritis or dealing with a patient with a recent double mastectomy. Even taking the vitals on these patients can be a challenge for some EMTs. If the CNA is covering 10 - 20 patients per shift, that is a lot of different patients to learn maybe just one or two new things about if one wants to further their education.


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## serupert (Sep 1, 2008)

VentMedic that was very well put. 

I am a CNA right now and have been for a little more than a year. I would suggest doing it for one because in hospitals, or at least mine, CNA's get paid more than EMT's. 

It's not only getting patients fed and everything. I work nights at a hospital on a post trauma floor and I rarely feed anyone and pretty much never give baths. You do take a lot of vital signs, you do accuchecks, help with dressing changes, sit with crazy people, assist in codes, and you also get to meet more patients and connect with them for a longer period of time. Some would argue that that's a negative aspect though. 

I also work in a surgery center. I get to watch surgeries and learn from the surgeons. Everything I have learned from the nurses and the doctors is invaluable.  It's also a great way to make contacts with important people if you ever need letters of recommendation or anything like that. 

It's definitely not a glamorous job but what I have gained from being a CNA is incredible. Also, if you are thinking about going into nursing every nurse I have talked to said the nurses that were CNA's before they went to school did way better than the ones that weren't.


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## VentMedic (Sep 1, 2008)

serupert said:


> Also, if you are thinking about going into nursing every nurse I have talked to said the nurses that were CNA's before they went to school did way better than the ones that weren't.


 
Everything you did as a CNA is now a well learned skill and can be done almost automatically. That leaves room for more concentration on the skills that are new once you get an advanced license. This would include becoming a Paramedic. Once you've been able to time manage and adjust priorities with 20 patients, 1 patient in the back of your truck should be no problem. Your listening, observation and attentive skills should also be more developed. Vital signs will be no problem. It is embarrassing to watch a Paramedic fumble with manual vital signs. It is also sad to hear from a patient that they rode 30 minutes in a truck with an EMT or Paramedic who did not say a word to them or ask about their comfort during a "routine" transport. Being a CNA shows you that patient care is more than cool uniforms and L&S. 

I personally would rather have an EMT student do a couple of shifts following the CNAs rather than sitting in the ED waiting for something exciting to come through the doors. I think the time would be better spent.


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## MMiz (Sep 1, 2008)

A bit off topic, but I know a few EMT-Basic schools who require hospital clinicals, ambulance clinicals, and clinicals at the NH following a CNA.  It doesn't sound like too bad of an idea.


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## rook901 (Sep 1, 2008)

As an LPN and TN EMT-IV, I can tell you with some small measure of authority that taking a CNA class will prove mostly useless if you are pursuing a career in EMS. Having said that, it's good to get some hands-on patient care experience, but that's about it. I honestly would not recommend spending time on a CNA certification, even for someone considering a career nursing.

CNA school is typically 5 weeks long (more or less depending on your state, but this is the average). You will learn how to ambulate patients, feed patients, take vital signs, and not a whole lot more. If you remove what you should already know as an EMT, basically all you're going to learn is how to change diapers.

Now, from the OP's perspective -- a high school student with zero healthcare experience -- it's not a bad idea to take the class if it's free. However, I would in no way encourage actually working as a CNA. The pay is way too low for way too much manual labor.

I in no way intend to dismiss CNA's as a valuable part of the healthcare team. I am simply suggesting that there are far more useful avenues of education if you intend to work toward a higher level of healthcare provider.


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## daedalus (Sep 1, 2008)

> I am a CNA right now and have been for a little more than a year. I would suggest doing it for one because in hospitals, or at least mine, CNA's get paid more than EMT's.



EMTs will make a lot more than a CNA after you factor in over time. But thats a silly point and really not relevant. Some of you are right, you can take a CNA class, an get a job almost anywhere in a hospital. You can also stay there for a long time and make just enough so that you decide never to advance you education. Any of this won't change the fact that if I saw a CNA in an CTICU, and it was my mother as the patient, you better believe that CNA will not be going anywhere near my mother.


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## VentMedic (Sep 1, 2008)

daedalus said:


> Any of this won't change the fact that if I saw a CNA in an CTICU, and it was my mother as the patient, you better believe that CNA will not be going anywhere near my mother.


 
If the CNA was in the CTICU, it was to assist the RN with your mother's personal care. CNAs do not claim to know it all in medicine as some do in EMS. 

I could tell you about EMTs and my mother. I wonder if two of them ever got their iPODs back? I also don't consider all EMTs to be the same incompetent fools that those two were. 

It would be unfair to say all CNAs are incapable of doing patient care either or that their training is useless. It is also not fair to say all they do is walk and feed patients. 

Considering it is possible to become an EMT in only 2 weeks, it would be unfair to criticize the length of the CNA's training. One cannot judge all experiences or people working in medical jobs from their own possibly very limited experience or education either. Most here have never actually been inside a hospital enough to judge any person working there. Many will never work inside a teaching hospital or any large hospital to see the many opportunities. Many that have been in these types of hospitals never really see what is going on around them. Many will never advance past EMT-B. Some will not last with ambulance work past 2 years. Some will discover their dislike for "patient care" within the first few weeks on the job. Those are the ones I hope leave the profession sooner rather than later. 

The nice thing about working as a CNA in a hospital is that they will throw money at you to advance to become degreed and licensed in some area of healthcare that benefits the hospital. One does not have to become a nurse either. 

There are no longer that many entry level jobs in the medical professions that allow direct patient care. Even the LPNs are being phased out because their education is only 1 year in length. There are few OJTs left. The Surgical Assistant is gaining ground on national standards. The medical labs are now wanting their Phlebotomists to have at least the 150 hours of courses and certified. That is 40 hours more training in just drawing blood than the 110 hour EMT program. Some PCT programs are 600 hours in length. That is almost as much as some Paramedic programs but in patient care skills for their area of specialty or a strong training in general patient care. 

People in EMS tend to get tunnel vision. Thus, they don't step outside of their comfort zone to see what medicine is all about. There is so much out there and rarely do some working on ambulances get to experience much of it. 

Don't close your mind to anything that might get you the experience you need or your education paid for. Shop around. Know your benefits. Ask how proactive they are with scheduling for classes. This is what new EMTs forget to do. Too many have entered EMS by way of some TV show or flashy commercial with a career school promising them a "guaranteed job". Many thought it would be like "Third Watch" or some of those other "thank goodness they got canceled" shows.

If your goal is to go from EMT to Paramedic by way of a college degree and only stay working as an EMT long enough to get your Paramedic, then that could be a different story. But, you have to make your patient contact and care experience count on all calls.


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