# AED's



## traumateam1 (Jun 15, 2008)

So as BLS providers what AED's do you use, and prefer?
I'm wondering if we should purchase (my own seperate business) one of those AED's that you put the two pads on and you can switch between automatic and manual (for ALS), and also provide SPO2 monitoring, tidal volume, 3 lead print outs etc. The HeartStart MRx (http://www.medical.philips.com/main/products/resuscitation/products/mrx/index.html) is an example.

I'm just looking for some oppinions and suggestions.
Thank-you.


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## Jon (Jun 15, 2008)

The heartstart MRx, the LP12, and the Zoll E and M series are defibrillator/monitors... they all have some form of semi-automatic AED mode... but I wouldn't even think about buying them if they weren't going on an ALS unit... the state inspectors might not allow them to count as AED's.


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## PapaBear434 (Jun 15, 2008)

Well, in my personal opinion, I prefer the electric ones.  I know they are more expensive and all, but I've found when the chips are down they beat the hand-crank ones in almost every way.

Nothing worse than having to go "CLEAR!" *whir whir whir whir ZAP*


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## LucidResq (Jun 15, 2008)

PapaBear434 said:


> Well, in my personal opinion, I prefer the electric ones.  I know they are more expensive and all, but I've found when the chips are down they beat the hand-crank ones in almost every way.
> 
> Nothing worse than having to go "CLEAR!" *whir whir whir whir ZAP*



Hahahahaha. 

Phillips recently gave my SAR team two HeartStart FRx AEDs and a trainer. They don't have the capability for monitoring/manual defib but otherwise they seem pretty nice. We're like... pre-prehospital and very few SAR folks are ALS providers so that stuff isn't really necessary anyways. We haven't had the opportunity to use them yet.


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## mdkemt (Jun 15, 2008)

I personally prefer the LifePak 12.  You have the option of using pads or paddles...doing 3/4/12 lead ECG...can do SPO2 monitoring and tidal volume.  Love them!

MDKEMT


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## fma08 (Jun 15, 2008)

i agree with mdk. LP12's, we being an ALS service carry them. but several of the outlying BLS services use the LPs and they like them.


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## traumateam1 (Jun 15, 2008)

Thanks for all the ideas.
So I've been doing some research and I like the LifePak 12 and from what I've seen I like it, so as a BLS provider, would you ALS providers and people who have used it recommend it for me?


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## fma08 (Jun 15, 2008)

100%. but they only thing about it I don't like is the NIBP monitoring is not the greatest.


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## KEVD18 (Jun 15, 2008)

im confused. i thought this thread was regarding AED's for a bls service. now it seems that it has shifted towards monitor/defibs. sure they have an auto feature, but they arent aed's, both physically and legally.

i dont know where the op is located, but in my service area, a bls truck cant carry a monitor and "promise" to use it only in auto mode. if the same is true in yours, then an lp12, m/e series, mrx or any other monitor will get your service in hot water. the theory that if you get a medic, they can use it on manual mode isnt very sound. the responding als crew should have their own gear. should you then also carry drugs and what not??

phillips heartstart frx, zoll aed+, lifepak 1000. as far as aeds go, there isnt a whole lot of difference. your best bet is to find out what monitor your most likely intercept has and buy the aed from that maker.


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## Jon (Jun 15, 2008)

Actually...the LP 1000 can be configured to work as a manual defib, often locked out with an access code needed... that way ALS doesn't have to switch right away.


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## KEVD18 (Jun 15, 2008)

jon: i know there are a few aeds that have a manual mode that can be unlocked. but thats quite different from a monitor. that feature has to be unlocked. assuming you can effectively control the means to unlock it, it just another aed unless in the hands of an als provider. were you to give a monitor to a bls crew not trained in any part of acls, you could very well run into a scenario where the bls providers spend precious time fiddling with the als features on the monitor, not providing excellent bls care and transporting. i can see it clearly in my minds eye. "well, i'll get everything ready for the medics"(assembles ecg cables with electrodes). "well, it cant hurt if i put the electrodes on before they get here, right"?(untrained or minimally trained bls guy start to apply 4 lead; maybe even goes on to put the leads on for a XII lead). then things get rough. this is where a little bit of knowledge make the situation go sideways. "i know this rhythm, etc".

*THIS ISNT AN ALS v. BLS THEMED POST. PLEASE DONT INTERPRET IT THAT WAY OR TAKE IT IN THAT DIRECTION*


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## BossyCow (Jun 16, 2008)

Before anyone can tell you which AED is going to best suit your needs, it might be nice to know something about where its going to be used and by whom. What is your business?


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## traumateam1 (Jun 16, 2008)

Simply providing first aid for events.
From speedway races, to 2 hour "walk-a-thons" Any event that happens in this city, is bylaw required to have first-aiders at their event. And my partner and I have made quite a rep. in this city, so we are getting a lot of events. 
So it's not like we need a manual defib. with 12 lead capabilities.


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## KEVD18 (Jun 16, 2008)

so disregard every answer that involves lp12, zoll m/e series, phillips mrx and any other monitor.

i like the phillips frx myself, but i have the most professional experience with the zoll aed+

with an aed, you wont get spo2, etco2(which im assuming is what you meant by tidal volume) or an ecg printer. then again, as a first responder, you have no need for any of that so its all good.

btw, the phillips mrx you referenced in your first post runs about 20k+ with all the bells and whistles.


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## BEorP (Jun 17, 2008)

Just get any standard lay person AED... if you're not even a PCP there is no need for anything more.


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## traumateam1 (Jun 17, 2008)

Thank you to everyone who gave some advice. I guess a simple, slap on the pads and push the orange button AED will do. 
Again, Thanks 

Mitch


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## rhan101277 (Jul 3, 2008)

Why would a medic use a manual if a automatic is handy?  Does the automatic give a better shock?  Or is it that if you use a manual you can tell if the shocked helped by looking at the rythm.


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## KEVD18 (Jul 3, 2008)

rhan101277 said:


> Why would a medic use a manual if a automatic is handy?  Does the automatic give a better shock?  Or is it that if you use a manual you can tell if the shocked helped by looking at the rythm.




monitor/defibs can do things that an aed cant. they can monitor(disreagrd aeds that display 1 lead), 12lead, pace, syncronized cardiovert, serve as a code recorder. all features that only als level providers need.


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## IrishMedic (Jul 3, 2008)

just so its out there the LP 12 can be purchase from medtronic with the option of just having a AED function and the 3/4/12 Lead , BP, Spo2, Event Recorder etc...i know because i was asked to research for a service i worked with before....therefore legally it would be an AED


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## KEVD18 (Jul 3, 2008)

IrishMedic said:


> just so its out there the LP 12 can be purchase from medtronic with the option of just having a AED function and the 3/4/12 Lead , BP, Spo2, Event Recorder etc...i know because i was asked to research for a service i worked with before....therefore legally it would be an AED



just for giggles, whats that type of setup go for.


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## rhan101277 (Jul 3, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> monitor/defibs can do things that an aed cant. they can monitor(disreagrd aeds that display 1 lead), 12lead, pace, syncronized cardiovert, serve as a code recorder. all features that only als level providers need.



Wish i didn't have to wait to go right into medic.  Basic is really basic.


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## IrishMedic (Jul 3, 2008)

IrishMedic said:


> just so its out there the LP 12 can be purchase from medtronic with the option of just having a AED function and the 3/4/12 Lead , BP, Spo2, Event Recorder etc...i know because i was asked to research for a service i worked with before....therefore legally it would be an AED



eh i was checkin in euro and it was gonna cost similar to the normal als unit. they charge you for the base unit and then each tool (like Spo2; BP; etc.) is and additional cost. eh if you go on the medtronic website you can work it out the cost of what your interested in... it was a good package though


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## KEVD18 (Jul 3, 2008)

so your paying for a full tilt lp12, but they arent giving you the pacer or the syncronized cardioversion. they're giving you the III lead, XII lead(which you cant use), the NIBP(which is generally considerd crap) and SpO2(ditto).

yeah, thats a hell of a deal....


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## IrishMedic (Jul 3, 2008)

i dunno what it wud cost over there, but for what we have to pay for equipment in ireland compared to other things it was worth the price....aed you can use all the 3/4/12 lead ecgs, u can use the event, all thats missing off it is the manual defib and pacing and snyncronized cardioversion...it beats having a seperate automatic BP machine (less reliable)  but nothing beats manuals trust me, separate pulse ox, so pros against cons, LP12 AED version worked out cheaper than other options we looked at...my experience with NIBP is pretty good, i mean every automatic BP will have issues....ill always have Initial BP done manually and any of my EMT's that i work with, knw what i expect when we arrive on scene. im a young medic and fresh but ive a good head on my shoulders and  was lucky to have great preceptors and instructors on my course.


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## KEVD18 (Jul 4, 2008)

irish medic:

first off, i apoligize for the "which you cant use" comment. first off, i didnt notice your in ireland(amazingly th4e "irish medic" didnt ti[ me off) and second i didnt know your a medic.

second, and really the more important question, whats a pint of guiness go for over there. i only ask because i've hand about 7 tonight and im curious.

btw, im paying anywhere from 5-8/pint in usd.

wow, im rambling. im going to wuit now.


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## Scout (Jul 4, 2008)

Trust me your getting the Guinness cheaper, €5-€8 would be our range,


Irish medic, what sort of cost were you getting off that package?


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## IrishMedic (Jul 4, 2008)

eh guiness is about 5 euro here and the quote i was gettin was around 3500 euro


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## KEVD18 (Jul 4, 2008)

ouch. thats harsh


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## Jon (Jul 4, 2008)

is it more expensive than other beers? Or is ETOH in general expensive?


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## Scout (Jul 4, 2008)

Jon said:


> is it more expensive than other beers? Or is ETOH in general expensive?




YOu see thats the problem they had an objection to us drinking ETOH, you even have to sign for some if in in chemists,


No €5 is ballpark and up for all pints (568ml) in the us thou a pint is only 473.
See the metric system is the way for ward,,

On a side i wish to appolagise for steriotyping the irish by having a conversation about drink in my first posts


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