# Ranks of Volunteer Firefighters Plummeting in USA



## Jon (Nov 7, 2005)

Ranks of Volunteer Firefighters Plummeting Nationwide

Updated: 11-07-2005 10:15:35 AM

_RICK HAMPSON
USA TODAY_


PENN TOWNSHIP, Pa. -- It took 26 fire companies from three counties last year to fight the fire at Dino's Grille, a two-story wood structure that ignited on a hot Tuesday morning in this town outside Harrisburg. The local volunteer chief still fumes just thinking about it. 
When Monte Supko arrived at the scene, he signaled other volunteer departments in the area for help. He needed firefighters. But what he got, mostly, was firetrucks -- many with only one or two people aboard. 

By the time sufficient help was assembled and the fire extinguished, Dino's was a smoking wreck. "A parade of half-million-dollar firetrucks didn't help much," he says. "I got mad, because we've waited so long to address the problem." 

The problem is this: The volunteer fire company, an institution that dates to Ben Franklin, is slowly going the way of the horse-drawn pumper. 
Blame it on the changes in society: longer commutes, two-income households, year-round youth sports, chain stores that won't release workers at midday to jump on a firetruck. Blame it on new folks in town who don't even know the department is volunteer. Blame it on stricter training requirements and fewer big fires and the lure of paying fire jobs in the cities. 

There is no greater, longer-running expression of volunteerism in U.S. history than the volunteer fire service, which still saves taxpayers billions of dollars each year. Almost three-fourths of the nation's 1.1. million firefighters are volunteers, and two-thirds of all fire departments are volunteer. 

In many communities, the volunteer fire company is a social and civic anchor. Members organize the Fourth of July parade and hang the holiday decorations on Main Street. The volunteer firehouse is the scene of scout meetings, wedding receptions, service club luncheons and knitting bees. It's a place to vote, drink, or hang out. 

But even though emergency calls are up, the number of volunteer firefighters has dropped nationally more than 10% over the past two decades. The decline is particularly steep in the Northeast. Pennsylvania, which had about 300,000 volunteers three decades ago, is down to 72,000. New York state, which had 140,000 15 years ago, now has 96,000. 

The kinds of volunteers who used to be able to cover weekday calls -- farmers, shop owners, factory shift workers -- are becoming as rare as a firehouse Dalmatian. 

Supko remembers when his fire company got a new member a month; there wasn't enough room on its firetrucks for everyone. Now, he says, "nobody wants to join." 

The department, which counted 30 active firefighters in the 1970s, is down to fewer than 20. A program to groom high school students has five members, a third of what it used to. It's an issue of time: potential volunteers have less, and firefighting requires more. 

*<Snip>*

"We have to let people know how dangerous this situation is," he says. "We're asking for some help." By that he means money, possibly credits or pensions for volunteers. 

But it may be too late for the volunteer fire company as a social institution. "It was the blue-collar country club," says McNally. "You could shoot a little pool and have a beer. It's a relic of a simpler time. But society has changed. The world has changed." 

Rest HERE: Firehouse.com - Free


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## Stevo (Nov 8, 2005)

blame it on Big Brother & friends, nobody gave the rescue biz the time of day until they started to intervene with thier _unfunded federal mandates._

and as anyone that's been to N.I.M.S. can see, we're slowly approaching that 'Hitler Youth' feel

~S~


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## TTLWHKR (Nov 8, 2005)

If you want to place blame, point the finger at Old Man Time.

Firefighters can't just learn how to roll hose and squirt water anymore, they have to be trained to a certain standard. Many people can't do this, because they just don't have the time. But that is too gee-dee bad, because with out training, people die. 

From a local stand point...

Penna. has the highest number of volunteer firefighters, the highest number of volunteer fire companies, and the highest number of volunteer ambulances. We always have, and we always will. There are more volunteer fire companies in PA than any other state, or any single country on the face of the earth.

_Also true, there are more volunteer firefighters killed in the line of duty in PA that any other state or single country._

That is not how it has always been, and it should never happen again.

How does time cause this?

The majority of PA Firefighters are over the age of 50. Lots of young ones kill too, Junior Firefighters that is.

Why?

LACK OF TRAINING - LACK OF PLANNING - LACK OF LEADERSHIP

Also contributing is Lack of Funding for *health programs, new Personal Protection Gear, new SCBA units, 'modern' apparatus, modern fire appliances i.e. hose, nozzles, tools, etc. 

Lack of Time... People can't train, so they don't stick around b/c they can't do anything.

SR-60 is what we need. It will give every volunteer firefighter and EMT a tax break, it will give them the funding we need, and it will give them the opportunity to train with facilities that we need. I read the whole proposal, as I had a little time to do that this week. 

This will save the Volunteer fire service.


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## Stevo (Nov 9, 2005)

> *SR-60*



is this a PA bill TTLWHKR?


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## hfdff422 (Nov 9, 2005)

1 state of the art engine (and rescue) 5 person, 1 High end off the shelf tanker (with preconnect, pump to supply, etc.), 1 nice for what it is grass rig, 1 ambulance (type III),  10 truly active members (15 on the roster- ha!). 6 blown calls this year ( rolling the grass rig to an ems call since only 1 shows up doesnt count).


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## TTLWHKR (Nov 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Stevo_@Nov 9 2005, 09:17 PM
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 I guess, not sure...


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## Jon (Nov 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by TTLWHKR+Nov 10 2005, 02:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (TTLWHKR @ Nov 10 2005, 02:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Stevo_@Nov 9 2005, 09:17 PM
> *
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I guess, not sure... [/b][/quote]
 Senate Resolution


Jon


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## Stevo (Nov 11, 2005)

> *QUOTE (TTLWHKR @ Nov 10 2005, 02:21 PM)
> QUOTE (Stevo @ Nov 9 2005, 09:17 PM)
> QUOTE
> SR-60
> ...



State or Federal? 

~S~


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## Jon (Nov 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Stevo_@Nov 11 2005, 07:50 AM
> *
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 PA State


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## Ridryder911 (Nov 11, 2005)

How about spending those "millions" of dollars on rigs and paying for professinal firefighters... whenever I see a Freightliner ambulance ona Vollie rig I thnk.. geez there goes 4 FTO salary ...

Be safe,
Ridryder 911


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## hfdff422 (Nov 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ridryder 911_@Nov 11 2005, 09:55 AM
> * How about spending those "millions" of dollars on rigs and paying for professinal firefighters... whenever I see a Freightliner ambulance ona Vollie rig I thnk.. geez there goes 4 FTO salary ...
> 
> Be safe,
> Ridryder 911 *


 .......for one year. You can pay several firefighter/EMT's for one year (mabye) with those funds. But guess what- those funds were either saved over years of fish fry and chili supper events, or they were a one time FEMA grant. When you have 200 runs a year, it is hard to justify to the trustee or commision that you need a full time fire/ ems crews salaries. Guess what, that crews salary is x3. So $55,000 (this includes bene's, employer load-additional taxes workmans comp etc./ stuff that no one thinks about) x 2 personnel per shift x 3 shifts=$330,000 per year. Our department's allotment from the trustee is $60,000 plus whatever we make from boot drive and fish fry. That would leave about $230,000 unfunded. Our state of the art engine cost $275,000, and it is our primary piece of apparatus. Or bus cost about $80,000. These apparatus will last 8-10 years hopefully, and together they cost not much more than 1 years salary for one crew. I said one crew- not an entire response. $330,000 to fund one full time crew- which would still  have to be bolstered by ranks of volunteers in and MVC or fire or HAZMAT incident. 

If, based on the statistics that Jon quoted, we were to start paying even half those volunteers it would cost nearly $22.7 *billion* (1.1 milX.75X.5X55,000). I am not sure where you think that money would come from, but property taxes are already entirely too high, and I can't afford to work for a FD yet, due to all those little costs associated with life that the government already jacks up by taking their cut (when the wife gets her B.S. she can support my habit).

Volunteer fire departments are not the same modified straight truck or stripped down fire truck and a redlighted pick-up bunch of red-necks that they used to be. Our department has state of the art equipment, abides by and trains on all state and federal standards. They use SOP's based on the idea of liability. Our ambulance doesn't roll unless there is a hospital approved EMT-B or higher on board. No-one with less than FF2 can go into a structure fire without a FTO or safety officer with them and commands approval. If cleared people aren't there, the apparatus does't go. No probies roll apparatus. 24 hours means you can watch- it used to mean you were a FF. No smoking on fire grounds, no unnecessary radio traffic. HIPPA is strictly enforced. Etc., etc., etc.

Our best EMT works at a power co. Our best FF's either aren't career anywhere else, or got on a career dept. because they were as good as they are. Being paid only means you get paid. Being professional means you take pride in your work and you try to improve through observation and training. There are plenty of paid personnel I wouldn't let volunteer for us for fear that our reputation would be harmed, of course there are plenty of volunteers that fit that bill as well.

Paid or not, the standards are the same, or at least close in our area. If money is a persons motivation to do something, then they should do something that does not affect somebodies well being.


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## Stevo (Nov 11, 2005)

> *How about spending those "millions" of dollars on rigs and paying for professinal firefighters... whenever I see a Freightliner ambulance ona Vollie rig I thnk.. geez there goes 4 FTO salary ...*



really?

well then i feel it necessary to imform you that your entire carear was built on the backs of vollies in America, right on back to Ben Franklin & co.

but then, good minons of the motu _(masters of the universe)_ really haven't a handle on the historic implications and/or events that may have garnered them a position workin' for 'Da Man' , and generally lack any respect don't they?

i suppose that's just the way it is, but as a closing thought here i'll remind you that your by far and large outnumbered by vollies in America. 

In fact American townships _(by far out populated in numbers than megalopolis) _move via vollies

and i'm not just taking ere's here either, there's plenty more than just that keeping us ticking along, think we can assume a FTO for all the above? 

Funny how quickly people wearing all the bling bling  and cha cha forget who's got their backs eh?

~S~


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## TTLWHKR (Nov 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Stevo_@Nov 11 2005, 02:30 PM
> *
> 
> well then i feel it necessary to imform you that your entire carear was built on the backs of vollies in America, right on back to Ben Franklin & co.
> ...


 Wrong. The most common mistake in fire history is the assumption that Union Fire Co. was the first to be established.

1642: New Amsterdam (NYC) First Vol. Fire Co. 

1742: Ben Franklin's Union Fire Co. was the first volunteer fire company....in Pennsylvania, disbanded in 1882.

1752: Oldest Vol. Fire Co. to be continuously active
Relief Fire Co. No. 1 of Mount Holly, Nj.

1853: First Paid fire dept., Cincinatti, Ohio

I stole this info from another fire forum.


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## Ridryder911 (Nov 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by hfdff422+Nov 11 2005, 10:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (hfdff422 @ Nov 11 2005, 10:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-ridryder 911_@Nov 11 2005, 09:55 AM
> * How about spending those "millions" of dollars on rigs and paying for professinal firefighters... whenever I see a Freightliner ambulance ona Vollie rig I thnk.. geez there goes 4 FTO salary ...
> 
> Be safe,
> Ridryder 911 *


.......If, based on the statistics that Jon quoted, we were to start paying even half those volunteers it would cost nearly $22.7 *billion* (1.1 milX.75X.5X55,000). I am not sure where you think that money would come from, but property taxes are already entirely too high, and I can't afford to work for a FD yet, due to all those little costs associated with life that the government already jacks up by taking their cut (when the wife gets her B.S. she can support my habit).

Volunteer fire departments are not the same modified straight truck or stripped down fire truck and a redlighted pick-up bunch of red-necks that they used to be. Our department has state of the art equipment, abides by and trains on all state and federal standards. They use SOP's based on the idea of liability. Our ambulance doesn't roll unless there is a hospital approved EMT-B or higher on board. No-one with less than FF2 can go into a structure fire without a FTO or safety officer with them and commands approval. If cleared people aren't there, the apparatus does't go. No probies roll apparatus. 24 hours means you can watch- it used to mean you were a FF. No smoking on fire grounds, no unnecessary radio traffic. HIPPA is strictly enforced. Etc., etc., etc.

Our best EMT works at a power co. Our best FF's either aren't career anywhere else, or got on a career dept. because they were as good as they are. Being paid only means you get paid. Being professional means you take pride in your work and you try to improve through observation and training. There are plenty of paid personnel I wouldn't let volunteer for us for fear that our reputation would be harmed, of course there are plenty of volunteers that fit that bill as well.

Paid or not, the standards are the same, or at least close in our area. If money is a persons motivation to do something, then they should do something that does not affect somebodies well being.[/b][/quote]

WOW! I am glad most cities here do not use those equations... I have never used that type in the past 20 years as a professional EMS consultant either... Whomever you used, I would highly suggest another one... there is no Fire Department inlcuding some largest ones here that has >200,00 people and average >10 fire responses a day that has a budget like that you proposed. For a volume of 200 calls a year, ( which is just less than 1 a day). 
No, I understand most do not have the  have the "redneck" mentality either. Neither do we with one of the 2 largest university in Fire Science and publications. (Oklahoma State University & International Fire Service Training (IFSTA) ) 

This still does not disallow lowering or decreasing the educational standards of EMS or even the Fire Service. Medicine is medicine, no matter what the population or run volume may be. There are alternative routes for voulunteers such as contracting with private services, combining districts, and making sure billing collection is above 80 %. 

I do understand the problems of recruiting volunteers, I was a Chief at a volunteer F.D at one time. With this saying, tradition and a lot "good ole boys" club also comes in mind. With the day of increasing business of everybody and the overwhelming increasing knowledge now required for firefighters & EMS, it is now almost impossible to be associated in this at a volunteer business. The same as with other professions, that now require full time professionals. As other business has had to do , communities will have to learn to adapt if they want coverage .

The reason my distaste is due to the volunteer EMS has caused the re-directing of EMT education in the early 90's and now the proposed Scope of Practice model. No other part of medicine basis it's treatment and restricition of care based upon the lack of staff available, as much as EMS.  This is a shame.. and carelessness on our part.  

Rspectfuly,
Ridryder 911


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## Stevo (Nov 11, 2005)

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perhaps my dates are not precise TTLWHKR, but the sentiment still stands

and yes, one could pose a good arguement in any community that is volunteer these days as to going full time. the _'good 'ol boys'_ and _'redneck' _insinuations geared to make vollies appear incompitent to serve are merely one carnard used

scare tactics are commonly used to justify full time appointees, along with equipment etc , this is exactly why we are a police state now , and have the highest amount of incarcerations among the first world

what _really_ happened to the emergency response service? well ems wasn't taken seriously at first, but then it grew into a moneymaker, so all manner of parasitic interest came our way.

those of us in the biz have been subjected to enough beuracracy over the years to know that much is simply keeping some goverment agency in business. those of us that have seen various beuracratic factions vie for control of issues know that the end user really isn't helped in his/her roll

one thing i do know for sure is, vollies have more heart in their pinky finger than in all the FTO's your community can afford to pitch for, this was the good nieghbor biz when it started and the best that serve in it still hold that ideal dear

~S~


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## Jon (Nov 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ridryder 911_@Nov 11 2005, 05:27 PM
> * The reason my distaste is due to the volunteer EMS has caused the re-directing of EMT education in the early 90's and now the proposed Scope of Practice model. No other part of medicine basis it's treatment and restricition of care based upon the lack of staff available, as much as EMS. This is a shame.. and carelessness on our part. *


 Why? 

What exactly are you referring to?

Thanks,

Jon


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## TTLWHKR (Nov 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by MedicStudentJon+Nov 11 2005, 07:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (MedicStudentJon @ Nov 11 2005, 07:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-ridryder 911_@Nov 11 2005, 05:27 PM
> * The reason my distaste is due to the volunteer EMS has caused the re-directing of EMT education in the early 90's and now the proposed Scope of Practice model. No other part of medicine basis it's treatment and restricition of care based upon the lack of staff available, as much as EMS. This is a shame.. and carelessness on our part. *


Why? 

What exactly are you referring to?

Thanks,

Jon [/b][/quote]
 He just liked to piss in the cheerios...

It's like shattering a window because you don't want to take the time to clean it. Throw some hot words on a smoldering conversation to get it burning hot.


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## Stevo (Nov 11, 2005)

Or maybe we're placing _blame_ for the 'Dumbing down of Ems' , which seemed to be what many in the biz dubbed the last cric ?

~S~


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## hfdff422 (Nov 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ridryder 911_@Nov 11 2005, 05:27 PM
> *
> 
> .......If, based on the statistics that Jon quoted, we were to start paying even half those volunteers it would cost nearly $22.7 billion (1.1 milX.75X.5X55,000). *


I would like to know what the pay model looks like for fire or ems personnel then. BTW, private firms will not contract for our area, which includes 4 townships (5 fire departments) due to it not being profitable (1200 runs per year for all 5).

My calculation was based on a cost of $55,000 per full time carrer postion. A $40,000 base salary, $6,000 for medical/dental, $1,000 for annual uniform allowance, $3,000 for PERF payments, $4000 for tax and workman's compensation payments (employer load) $1000 for equipment maintenace. All of which are reasonable estimates. Then I used Jon's numbers of 75% of 1.1 million, took 50% of the 75% and used that as the future carrer postions, then multiplied by the estimated salaries. Which was approximately 22.7 billion dollars. These are just estimates obviously. 

In the area I volunteer in, our standards are ever increasing for all levels of EMS, requiring new and lengthening trainings and more rigorous testing, volunteer or not. By far the most incompetent EMS providers I have ever met was a paid ambulance crew. There are varying levels of competency throughout every type of provider service. Keeping the volunteer EMT-B or EMT-I postions out of reach will either destroy viable emergency services or deplete public funds, there is no way to get around that. If you think you have a way, feel free to spell out a detailed model.

Oh, and those 200 runs a year, those people that have the emergency don't care if I am getting paid or not, they are real glad to see me. They are going to get the fire put out, get removed from the MVC, or get taken to the hospital just as quickly and professionally as the EMT's and FF's from the "city" would do.


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## hfdff422 (Nov 11, 2005)

Ridryder, after rereading your post for the third time, that $22.7 billion is for the entire country. I reffered to Jons numbers of 1.1 million which is nationally. See my previous post.


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## Ridryder911 (Nov 12, 2005)

I now understand, but you need to remember some of those base salaries are little off and I would love to see benefits like that at most departments. Wow a $1000 yr for uniform allowance..most are allowed 3 typical uniforms and upkeep of bunker gear. I understand regions will vary in costs; but this is on the high side. Such as $ 40K starting pay. In some areas some would love to see this after 5 yrs service. Again, I know it varies within regions of the country.

Let me explain about the volunteer issue is simple. In the late eighties the reformation of the Basic EMT criteria was watered down directly to the outcry of voulunteers describing that it was too difficult to recruit members in their service. The description was that if it increased this would cause hardships on these services... the same is true with the proposed Scope of Practice model.

If you don't believe it was watered down do a comparrision of diadactic module comparrision of anatomy and treatment priorto the change.. ( for most of you, that have been in EMS >10 years)  Then review the inital propsed Scope of Practice now look at the final draft... sorry medicine is medicine, and the criteria should not be changed because of systems lacking. 

We need to find a source to increase funding to departments or incorporate county wide, or Fire / EMS districts that can staff and deliver 24/7 care without the dependence of volunteers, if it has become so difficult. I am not against volunteerism by no means, just addressing the issue that it is dying. Realizing we need to look for answers, and start looking now. The problem is going to get worse as the medium age increases. What do you see the future of your department will be in 5 - 10 years, with the predicted number of EMS calls to double or triple ? WIl your department be able to handle the volume?

Respectively,
Ridryder 911


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## MedicPrincess (Nov 12, 2005)

The length of training required in order to enter the Hot Zone here in florida is a Minium of 160 hours (including a 40 hour First Responder)

you can find the requirements hereFl Vol FF Req

Now when  I did it, we went to class 3 nights a week and 8 hours every saturday for 3 months.  This was in addition to our regular shift times, our regular 40 hour a week jobs, plus family committments.  So its easy to see how they are loosing volunteers.

Sure all this training results in better trained individuals, however finding the people to be willing to commit that much time to anything without any compensation is extremely difficult.

Then at the end of the 160 hours, we still had to take the state exam, which was the absolute hardest test I have ever taken in my life.


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## Stevo (Nov 12, 2005)

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JEMS posts an annual nationwide salary poll hfdff422 , and $22Bil isn't exactly chump change in an all time record deficit...



> *If you don't believe it was watered down do a comparrision of diadactic module comparrision of anatomy and treatment priorto the change.. ( for most of you, that have been in EMS >10 years) Then review the inital propsed Scope of Practice now look at the final draft... sorry medicine is medicine, and the criteria should not be changed because of systems lacking. *



The B cric did change, however the I level revived itself from older *didactic's* where , imho, they simply dragged out books that had been unused for a decade.

It also seems to me that there are a good number of vollie I techs whom are keeping their certs up, although i will admit the scope of practice is inclusive of what the area medical director will allow, and this is usually determined by the number of incidents one can utilitize to keep us skills.

as to an *outcry of vollies 'lacking'* that moved the dot & cohorts into this i would ask you provide a link to prove your point *Ryder*, rather than that which is plain heresay...

~S~


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## Ridryder911 (Nov 12, 2005)

First I did not say vollies are lacking. What I did say was the outcry to the national committee in 1985, 1988 ( ref: Montanna studies, Stolt), major decision was determined to change basic level to a friendly less stressful course. The removal of simple medical terminology and reduction of anatomy as well. ( Don't believe me try to find classifications of fractures in the basic book) 

The problem is of volunteers is not the volunteers themselves. The problem is it is affecting the growth or scope of medicine in EMS. I again, refer to the National Scope Practice inital edition and current revision. Again, the outcry of volunteer services fears that with increasing training and education memberships will decline. (I refer to EMS advocates, et. for committee report) 

I am not personally against any volunteer agency, what I am against is determining how EMS will function and treat patients due to lack of supply and demand of voulnteers. Sorry that peoples lives have to become to involved to care for the human man, however; restricting requirements and downsizing education will not increase memberships either. 

Again, I ask members of volunteers services what is the plan when the your run volume double or possibly triples within the next five years. The prediction of the baby boomers increasing in age, prediciton is that EMS runs will at least double in number.  This is the main point of the post.....

Be safe,
Ridryder 911


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## TTLWHKR (Nov 12, 2005)

So you base your assumption that volunteers are responsible for the dumbing down of EMS nationally, because of a study done in Montana?

I'd like to see some reasons for me to blame the gentlefolk down the street for dumb EMS providers. Like maybe some statistics from every state for the last twenty years. 

As an EMT Instructor, I don't think EMS has literally been dumbed down. I'll take a quote for you, my father said this while visiting. He picked up my instructor itenery and said "Boy, they're still teaching the same stuff as they did in the 70's".

That's the answer for me. EMS Training has stayed the same, as far as Basics go, it hasn't evolved to new technology. Probably because instead of equipping to modern times, someone numb head in god knows what state decided they needed a new class for it. That's how we came to having 40+ EMT Certifications. What seems simple to me now, was complex 30 years ago, its not dumb... It's old.


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## Ridryder911 (Nov 12, 2005)

You are the first instructor I have heard state that description. Look again, at anatomy,, hmm do you see even the types of fractures or even some texts don't even have the word myocardial infarction.. but heart attack, Do we even have to mention charting or documentation and abbreviations..... 

Sorry, even NAEMSE has discussed this in detail. Look at the failure rate into the Paramedic programs and having to re-train when enteing Paramedic class. New Basic EMT curriculum can not to be too hard if one can accomplish and pass it in 2 weeks as some instructional sites has guaranteed. 

Again, look at the whole picture not your neighborhood. Look at the number of programs that are cranking out EMT's everyday and where do they go ?... My state alone will produce over 300-500 every 16 weeks for a state that has only 180 EMS services (most of these are ALS) so what are the chances of emplyment and maintaining current level or skill competancy. And do you really trust those that have not seen a patient or read in the past 23 months before their licensure expire ?

Not really trying to be agumentative, just believe I am presenting poor communication on my ideas. I fear, we will have a ton full of EMT's  and no place for them to call home. If they do get lucky, it will be either be volunteer or poor emplyment opportunity. Maybe entry level requirements ought to be implemented. 

Respectfully,
Ridryder 911


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## TTLWHKR (Nov 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ridryder 911_@Nov 12 2005, 08:47 PM
> *
> 
> *


 But what does wording of a text book have to do with no volunteer firefighters?


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## Jon (Nov 12, 2005)

Getting back on subject.

I just opened my email, and Billy G's latest "Secret List" email rings really true.

It is his very well written response to the original artical, which first appeared in USA Today:



> *Hey...
> By now, most of you have read the article in USA Today last week regarding the volunteer fire service. Here is a link in case you missed it:
> 
> 
> ...


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## hfdff422 (Nov 21, 2005)

It is not the money that VFD's save the community, it is the fact that the community can not afford to fund anymore than they do in many instances.


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