# Firefighters and paramedic have religious right to keep beards



## MMiz (Mar 8, 2009)

*DC loses beard case in federal appeals court. Judge cites city's "muddled litigation strategy".*

Victory for a group of firefighters and paramedics with the District of Columbia Fire & EMS Department in the fight to retain facial hair. The decision came today in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit.

In describing the decision, attorney William Iverson told Legal Times reporter Mike Scarcella that the ruling for his clients hinged on a procedural matter. Iverson, with the firm Covington & Burling, said it isn’t likely to set precedent under the Religious Freedom Restoration Act.

*Read more!*


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## Aidey (Mar 8, 2009)

*facepalm*

When a FFs mask doesn't seal properly, and he runs out of air because his pack is blowing it out, or when he inhales smoke you can bet the city is going to be sued for not making them shave. Same thing when some EMS person contracts TB because their N95 didn't fit right.


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## firecoins (Mar 8, 2009)

I have no problem with EMS If TB is susbected other EMS units can handle it.


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## mycrofft (Mar 9, 2009)

*My beard IS N-95*

..............


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## Aidey (Mar 9, 2009)

Or SARS, or Bacterial Meningitis, or any other of a number of nasty airbourne viruses. The whole point is that the religious observation shouldn't be allowed to interfere with the job. If a patient has to wait 20 minutes for a crew because the only crew available can't wear the proper PPE, it's interfearing.


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## firecoins (Mar 9, 2009)

Aidey said:


> Or SARS, or Bacterial Meningitis, or any other of a number of nasty airbourne viruses. The whole point is that the religious observation shouldn't be allowed to interfere with the job. If a patient has to wait 20 minutes for a crew because the only crew available can't wear the proper PPE, it's interfearing.


I disagree.


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## VentMedic (Mar 9, 2009)

Aidey said:


> Or SARS, or Bacterial Meningitis, or any other of a number of nasty airbourne viruses. The whole point is that the religious observation shouldn't be allowed to interfere with the job. If a patient has to wait 20 minutes for a crew because the only crew available can't wear the proper PPE, it's interfearing.


 
Agree.

If you are unable to do perform the duties of your job description, you should not be in that position.   If all it takes if for someone to grow a beard and claim a religion, I could see several hospital and EMS employees trying that approach to avoid some patients with potentially harmful diseases.  However, that isn't an excuse and the employee may have to come up with their own approved PPE if none of their employers will work for them.   Their employer may be obilgated to assist but only within reason.


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## JPINFV (Mar 9, 2009)

firecoins said:


> I have no problem with EMS If TB is susbected other EMS units can handle it.



So if I grow a beard I can start to decline any calls that may require droplet or airborne precautions? Sounds like a sweet way to never visit another SNF or run another "congestion" call again!


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## Sasha (Mar 9, 2009)

I'd be more concerned about all the little nasties that beard is possibly picking up and brining home to your family. We wash our hands regularly, but do you wash your beard?


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## firecoins (Mar 9, 2009)

Sasha said:


> I'd be more concerned about all the little nasties that beard is possibly picking up and brining home to your family. We wash our hands regularly, but do you wash your beard?



so your afraid people don't wash their beird?


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## silver (Mar 9, 2009)

Many ORs offer beard covers (now of course I don't think there is a place in the OR for beards except in certain cases), so why not offer the same beard cover/protection for those with religious ideals that require beards on the ambulance?


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## VentMedic (Mar 9, 2009)

silver said:


> Many ORs offer beard covers (now of course I don't think there is a place in the OR for beards except in certain cases), so why not offer the same beard cover/protection for those with religious ideals that require beards on the ambulance?


 
The beard covers in an OR do not protect against viruses and bacteria. They essentially serve the same purpose as a hair net.


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## daedalus (Mar 9, 2009)

Common sense.

Where has it gone?


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## JPINFV (Mar 9, 2009)

Welcome to EMS. We kicked common sense out a while ago. Enjoy your stay.


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## silver (Mar 9, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> The beard covers in an OR do not protect against viruses and bacteria. They essentially serve the same purpose as a hair net.



So what makes my dirty, greasy and exposed hair (hypothetical) acceptable and clean and a beard not? It can as easily transmit the same bacteria and virus to and from patient. Sure it may be closer to susceptible areas like nose, mouth and eyes, but maybe I enjoy running my hands through my hair.
A lot of times proper protection and hygiene is not taken with hair which causes problems.
(I don't support beards, but they can pose the same risks as hair on the top of the head)

Sure the beards might not seal very well with a mask, but a lot people wear their mask very laxly in EMS


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## PotatoMedic (Mar 9, 2009)

I say make all the people who want to grow beards sign forms regarding illness and injuries that may be caused by improper mask fit.  Then shove them into desk jobs.  (or let them "die" out.  Not trying to be synical (sp?)).


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## Sasha (Mar 9, 2009)

firecoins said:


> so your afraid people don't wash their beird?



No, I'm just curious if at the end of a shift, what would that beard test positive for carrying? You wash your hands (hopefully) after every patient, but I have yet to see someone break out some shampoo and water for that mass of hair jutting off their face.


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## Aidey (Mar 9, 2009)

I'm not bothered by the potential cleanliness of the hair so much as I am bothered by the implications. Basically these people now can say that they don't have to wear PPE because it doesn't work with their facial hair, and they have a right to keep the facial hair. This means that either the patients will suffer because a crew might not be available. Or alternatively a EMS provider may be exposed to an illness, and who is going to be blamed?


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## VentMedic (Mar 9, 2009)

Originally Posted by *VentMedic* 

 
_



The beard covers in an OR do not protect against viruses and bacteria. They essentially serve the same purpose as a hair net.

Click to expand...

_


silver said:


> So what makes my dirty, greasy and exposed hair (hypothetical) acceptable and clean and a beard not? It can as easily transmit the same bacteria and virus to and from patient. Sure it may be closer to susceptible areas like nose, mouth and eyes, but maybe I enjoy running my hands through my hair.
> A lot of times proper protection and hygiene is not taken with hair which causes problems.
> (I don't support beards, but they can pose the same risks as hair on the top of the head)
> 
> Sure the beards might not seal very well with a mask, but a lot people wear their mask very laxly in EMS


 
If you worked in the OR, your beard and HAIR would both be covered. However, you hair is not a port of entry for viruses, bacteria and spores. 

Let's just call those that don't know the proper way to wear their mask *lucky*. We can then call their families and patients *unlucky* for having such fools to look out for their well being. The mask may also be meant to protect the patient. Those that do not understand the modes of various infections probably have no clue what they are carrying on their hands, clothes and in their nares.


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## Sasha (Mar 9, 2009)

> However, you hair is not a port of entry for viruses, bacteria and spores.



While not a port of entry, I remember how it was discussed that MD's ties and labcoats being really... dirty with microbes and the like. Would someone's beard, if long enough, be similar?


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## VentMedic (Mar 9, 2009)

Sasha said:


> While not a port of entry, I remember how it was discussed that MD's ties and labcoats being really... dirty with microbes and the like. Would someone's beard, if long enough, be similar?


 
Yes if the person is touching their beard while touching patients.   The same with people who mess with they hair while in the clinical setting.


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## Sasha (Mar 9, 2009)

> The same with people who mess with they hair while in the clinical setting.



Yuck.

10chars


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## EMTCop86 (Mar 10, 2009)

Aidey said:


> Or SARS, or Bacterial Meningitis, or any other of a number of nasty airbourne viruses. The whole point is that the religious observation shouldn't be allowed to interfere with the job. If a patient has to wait 20 minutes for a crew because the only crew available can't wear the proper PPE, it's interfearing.


 


firecoins said:


> I disagree.


 
firecoins what exactly do you disagree with, the fact that religion should not interfere with your job of saving lives or that a patient might have to wait 20 minutes because the initial crew can't wear proper PPEs?

Aidey I completely agree with you. I understand the whole religious thing and I respect it, however, if your religion prevents you from doing your job properly, effectively, and safely then you need to find another job, especially when your jobs involves matters of life and death.


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## Sasha (Mar 10, 2009)

> firecoins what exactly do you disagree with



I think he's just disagreeing to be disagreeable.


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## Vonny (Mar 10, 2009)

Sasha said:


> While not a port of entry, I remember how it was discussed that MD's ties and labcoats being really... dirty with microbes and the like. Would someone's beard, if long enough, be similar?



Here is a study that was done on this very subject

"_An investigation was conducted to evaluate the hypothesis that a bearded man subjects his family and friends to risk of infection if his beard is contaminated by infectious microorganisms while he is working in a microbiological laboratory. Bearded and unbearded men were tested with Serratia marcescens and Bacillus subtilis var. niger. Contact aerosol transmission from a contaminated beard on a mannequin to a suitable host was evaluated with both Newcastle disease virus and Clostridium botulinum toxin, type A. The experiments showed that beards retained microorganisms and toxin despite washing with soap and water. Although washing reduced the amount of virus or toxin, a sufficient amount remained to produce disease upon contact with a suitable host._"

The whole study can be read here

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=547091&blobtype=pdf


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## Aidey (Mar 10, 2009)

In short, ewwwww.


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## EMTCop86 (Mar 11, 2009)

Vonny said:


> Here is a study that was done on this very subject
> 
> "_An investigation was conducted to evaluate the hypothesis that a bearded man subjects his family and friends to risk of infection if his beard is contaminated by infectious microorganisms while he is working in a microbiological laboratory. Bearded and unbearded men were tested with Serratia marcescens and Bacillus subtilis var. niger. Contact aerosol transmission from a contaminated beard on a mannequin to a suitable host was evaluated with both Newcastle disease virus and Clostridium botulinum toxin, type A. The experiments showed that beards retained microorganisms and toxin despite washing with soap and water. Although washing reduced the amount of virus or toxin, a sufficient amount remained to produce disease upon contact with a suitable host._"
> 
> ...


 
Have they done any studies on hair from your head?


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## reaper (Mar 11, 2009)

We should all wear a full bio suite and be decontaminated after each shift!!!

Some things are taken a little over board. Should we rip out all our finger nails? Come on now, they can contain viruses under them.

We can never make the world totally clean. We can do our best to minimize after affect. Proper BSI and washing is what we need to focus on.

Do I think that long beards should be aloud in EMS? NO. A short well trimmed beard is not a problem.


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## firecoins (Mar 11, 2009)

reaper said:


> We should all wear a full bio suite and be decontaminated after each shift!!!
> 
> Some things are taken a little over board. Should we rip out all our finger nails? Come on now, they can contain viruses under them.
> 
> ...



good post.


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## BossyCow (Mar 11, 2009)

We all make choices. This same topic was discussed under the tattoo thread. If my religion dictates that I must subscribe to certain restrictions, my moral obligation is to find a method of earning a living that fits with my moral code. To attempt to change a workplace in order to fit my religious preferences is going about it backwards. 

There will be opportunities missed, limitations imposed, but hey.. life is messy. I don't think any religion states that the world must adjust to make your religious practice less of a pain. While reasonable accomodations are the hallmark of a decent employer, realistic expectations is also the hallmark of a mature adult.


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## Aidey (Mar 11, 2009)

reaper said:


> Some things are taken a little over board. Should we rip out all our finger nails? Come on now, they can contain viruses under them.



Medicare actually has regulations stating how long an employees fingernails can be in medicare dependent clinics. When I worked dialysis fake nails were banned flat out, and your nails couldn't be more than .25 in.


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## VentMedic (Mar 11, 2009)

If you work in some hospital situations like NICU, PICU, SICU, L&D, etc, there are many restrictions. Even the less restrictive units will enforce most of these. 

No perfume.
No fake nails.
No long nails.
No jewelry. 
No gum.
Fit tests to see which masks are appropriate. If you have a beard, you must wear the one that is to your specification and don't get caught not wearing it when appropriate or wearing one that was tested to not fit you. 

Medicare may not pay for infections caused by you. They don't necessarily do the enforcing although Medicare has been known to do their own inspections of facilities instead of just relying on JCAHO. JCAHO is a picnic compared to Medicare inspections.


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## silver (Mar 11, 2009)

Aidey said:


> Medicare actually has regulations stating how long an employees fingernails can be in medicare dependent clinics. When I worked dialysis fake nails were banned flat out, and your nails couldn't be more than .25 in.



fake nails were statistically proven to pose higher rates of cultures. Additionally nail polish older than a couple of days harbors more bacteria.


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## Aidey (Mar 11, 2009)

Yeah, i've seen pictures of culture dishes comparing regular fingernails to fake ones. It's nasty. 

Medicare inspections are scary. They came to the dialysis clinic not too long after I had been working there and they literally got out a ruler and measured fingernails and hair length. (If your hair is more than a certain number of inches it's supposed to be pulled back). They do not take their duties lightly, and they are dead serious when they say you better be doing something a certain way.


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## Vonny (Mar 11, 2009)

reaper said:


> Some things are taken a little over board. Should we rip out all our finger nails? Come on now, they can contain viruses under them.



We have to wear gloves, double gloves for some cases.... Fingernails are something we are born with, not the same as beards which are a choice. 

Personally I am paranoid about contamination, not just working but in all things to do with public contact, you should see me when I have to visit a public toilet, its pathetic I know and people laugh at me all the time for it... cant help it though...Maybe I am OCD... 
We can not protect ourselves from everything but we can up the odds by being careful.  Having seen a MRSA wound I would do anything to try and avoid having one of my own.. That stuff is just creepy.


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## 281mustang (Mar 11, 2009)

EMS employment isn't a right, it's a privilege. If you're unwilling to abide by the rules and feel that your beliefs are more important than pt care then don't let the door hit you in the *** on the way out. There are plenty of jobs out there where beards are permissible.


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## firecoins (Mar 11, 2009)

I deleted post.


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## firecoins (Mar 11, 2009)

281mustang said:


> EMS employment isn't a right, it's a privilege. If you're unwilling to abide by the rules and feel that your beliefs are more important than pt care then don't let the door hit you in the *** on the way out. There are plenty of jobs out there where beards are permissible.



according to the court, EMS is a job where a beard is permissable.


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## Aidey (Mar 11, 2009)

According to this one court case, in which it has been observed the city did not do a good job making their case. There have been other cases where it has been found that requiring employees to cut/shave their facial hair in order to wear necessary PPE is perfectly legal and not discrimination at all.

There is also the small issue of NFPA 1500, and the fact that these FFs may now be worthless to DC if they want to abide by any of the following rules. 



> [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]_OSHA's requirement 29 CFR 1901.134 (g)(1) Facepiece seal protection. (i)  The employer shall not permit respirators with tight-fitting facepieces to be  worn by employees who have: (A) Facial hair that comes between the sealing  surface of the facepiece and the face or that interferes with valve function; _[/FONT]
> [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]_ANSI Z88.2-1992 7.5.1 Facial Hair A respirator, either positive or  negative pressure, equipped with a facepiece (tight or loose fitting) shall not  be worn if the facial hair comes between the facepiece and the face or if facial  hair interferes with valve function. _[/FONT]
> [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]_NFPA 1500 5-3.9 A growth of beard or facial hair at any point where the  SCBA facepiece is designed to seal with the face, regardless of the specific fit  test measurement that can be obtained, or hair that could interfere with the  facepiece valve function shall be prohibited for members required to use SCBA_[/FONT]


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## 281mustang (Mar 11, 2009)

firecoins said:


> according to the court, EMS is a job where a beard is permissable.


 I'm aware of the ruling in this case, I'm just stating my opinion.


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## VentMedic (Mar 12, 2009)

*petition for new hearing*

*This article could also be titled "How to Spend Tax Dollars and Union Dues"*



*DC to ask for rehearing in EMS beard dispute*

March 11, 2009

http://www.ems1.com/ems-products/he...-DC-to-ask-for-rehearing-in-EMS-beard-dispute




> WASHINGTON — District of Columbia Attorney General Peter Nickles says the city will continue the legal battle over beards in the DC Fire & EMS Department. On Friday, a three judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the DC Circuit ruled against the District and affirmed a 2007 ruling by a federal judge in favor of the firefighters and medics. Friday's opinion hinged on a procedural matter.
> 
> Nickles tells STATter911.com *the safety issue is too important* to let this case be decided on a technicality. He has directed his staff to *petition for a hearing before the entire court.*


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## jason152318 (Mar 22, 2009)

Man. the things they let in the courts.....Im all about religious rights, but I think this is a dumb topic to even bring up in a court. I read my Bible and I have yet to see anything about needing a beird to believe in God.


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## Shishkabob (Mar 22, 2009)

I have a goatee... doesn't inhibit the N-95, doesn't inhibit a SCUBA mask, and doesn't inhibit a SCBA mask.  If an employer tells me to get rid of it, I'd tell them to shove off too.


Having said that, it's not a religious right, but it does encroach on others freedoms.


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## firecoins (Mar 22, 2009)

jason152318 said:


> Man. the things they let in the courts.....Im all about religious rights, but I think this is a dumb topic to even bring up in a court. I read my Bible and I have yet to see anything about needing a beird to believe in God.



Orthodox Jews and Muslims will disagree with that.  Thats who brought the lawsuit.


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## Scout (Mar 22, 2009)

Could a positive pressure hood be used by firemen?


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## VentMedic (Mar 22, 2009)

Linuss said:


> I have a goatee... doesn't inhibit the N-95, doesn't inhibit a SCUBA mask, and doesn't inhibit a SCBA mask. If an employer tells me to get rid of it, I'd tell them to shove off too.


 
How often are you fit tested for the N-95 and is your goatee the same shape and length each time?


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