# R-E-S-P-E-C-T Find out what it means to me!



## BossyCow (Sep 9, 2008)

In the uniform thread the topic of standing for 'superiors' and the difference between rising when someone enters a room and having to stand at attention in the military was discussed. 

It got me thinking. Please, read through the rant because there's a question at the end. 

I grew up in New England and was taught at private schools. We wore uniforms and we stood when the instructor entered the room. I went through a phase of thinking how lame that was and lived through the 60's where a new crop of instructors and professors were more likely to have us call them by their first names and go out with us after class for a beer (college level).

I have to say that I think we've gone a bit overboard when we refuse to treat each other with formal demonstrations of respect. How many of us use the phrase "you're welcome' when someone thanks us? How many of us refer to someone older by Mr. or Mrs, Sir or Ma'am. until we are invited to call them by their first names? 

I believe that giving someone a token of respect takes nothing away from me, but gives me something. It's not subservience, because being subservient makes it all about me. "I'm not going to stand up because I don't have to and you can't make me" Showing someone else respect is a truly wonderful act. It is an acknowledgement of their life, their experience, their knowledge and their position in society. If you believe acknowledging that about someone else takes something from you, what does that say about us as a culture? 

What do you think folks?


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## reaper (Sep 9, 2008)

Bossy,

 In that thread, they stated that they had to stand when ANYONE entered the room. That means that when the janitor comes in, you stand! If I am at a lecture or formal gathering where someone of honor is speaking, yes I stand when they come in as a show of respect. I just think to have a blanket rule like that in a class, is to much military influence or FD influence. I will stand an show respect to someone who is distinguished in their field. That does not mean that they are SUPERIOR to me, it just means I acknowledge their accomplishments.


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## mikie (Sep 9, 2008)

I have always been respectful to command.  It's "good morning chief" not "hey bob!" (at the fire house at least)

I use thank yous, hold the door open (there's a limit to how long though  )

I do find there are too many people that don't even have the capacity to be respectful.  Rude people (or use horribly poor grammar) bug me.



reaper said:


> That means that when the janitor comes in, you stand!



Of course!  Who doesn't?!


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## Outbac1 (Sep 9, 2008)

I agree with you Bossey. I too remember the sixties and being taught formality. I still call the Drs. at the hosp. "DR." when the other medics and nurses call them by their first name. The "Drs" haven't yet told me I can call them by their first name. 

 Don't know if I'd stand for the Janitor. There is a limit.


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## mycrofft (Sep 9, 2008)

*Why not stand for the janitor? Or do you want to try his job out for a week?*

Uniform rules and conduct, and uniforms per se, are a means to sand down one's individuality and establish beforehand what everyone's status is. The end result should be that you do not waste each other's time trying to challenge or change status, you take what is offered and move on. The training organization should then build in opportunities for debate and discourse. If you aren't there to get their message, then get out, go find an organization more to your liking. If you find them too hard to work with, then look elsewhere.

It also builds culture and identity within the group (even if the culture is to find ways to outsmart the authorities while meeting the standards, which is not too bad!) and both teaches you and tests you regarding following orders...which is what regulations and policies/procedures/standardized procedures are. Some folks just CAN'T follow instructions, and failing to follow a standard of behavior or dress is one harmless way of determining that.
Tench-HUT! Dismissed!


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## Flight-LP (Sep 9, 2008)

reaper said:


> Bossy,
> 
> In that thread, they stated that they had to stand when ANYONE entered the room. That means that when the janitor comes in, you stand! If I am at a lecture or formal gathering where someone of honor is speaking, yes I stand when they come in as a show of respect. I just think to have a blanket rule like that in a class, is to much military influence or FD influence. I will stand an show respect to someone who is distinguished in their field. That does not mean that they are SUPERIOR to me, it just means I acknowledge their accomplishments.



What exactly is wrong with that influence? The U.S. Military is one of the very few traditions in our country that has stood the test of time. Perhaps the "force element" is the sustaining aspect, but our society, especially teenagers today, could use a d@mn good dose of respect. Standing at attention for a janitor, sure that's a little over the top, but doing it for your instructor is completely within acceptable norms in my book. Why make a mountain out of a molehill, especially when it is promoting a necessary trait in our youth today?

Besides, you have already completed Paramedic school, why should it bother you?


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## marineman (Sep 9, 2008)

I agree 100% with Bossycow.

As for the janitor example, yes interrupting class and standing for him could be a distraction and a hassle but what has he done to not deserve your respect? Should an ER doc not respect you at all because you're a lowly medic? Like I said standing for a janitor could be overboard but it teaches to show the same level of respect to everyone regardless of social status which is an important principle in this field.


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## Airwaygoddess (Sep 10, 2008)

*Manners are a great part of respect*

I think that having good manners,and treating your peers and your supervisors with the respect that they have earned, should go without saying......... -_-


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## Hastings (Sep 10, 2008)

Airwaygoddess said:


> I think that having good manners,and treating your peers and your supervisors with the respect that they have earned, should go without saying......... -_-



Definitely puts you way ahead of the crowd when applying for a position in this field.


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## reaper (Sep 10, 2008)

I never stated that janitors were lowly! Hell, they make more then me. I meant that if he came in the room to empty the trash, you wouldn't stand up.

I agree that the military is a great part of this country. I served my time in and moved on.

As stated, I show respect to those that deserve respect. That may mean my supervisors or a Dr. But, not always. I have had supervisors that didn't earn what they had and didn't earn my respect. My last chief, I addressed by his first name. He was a great guy and great chief. We were friends and he was my student, so the formalities were not there.

Do our youth of today need to learn respect and good manners? absolutely. Hell, I have always believed in 2 year enlistments after high school is a good thing. I just don't believe in making our class rooms into a military or FD enviorment. I think some things are fine, like uniforms all the time. But, (just like in the military) you can't take someone who won't put out the effort and change them. Those are the ones that won't make it through the class anyways.

So yes, uniforms in class are great. Class rules are great. Forcing an entire class to stand when someone comes in the room, I don't believe is necessary. The students that know what is proper will do it on their own. We have a hard enough time in EMT classes trying to teach the simple stuff. It is not our jobs to teach discipline to them. That should be weeded out in the interview process.


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## apagea99 (Sep 10, 2008)

You have to remember in my original post that we do have to stand whenever anyone other than an instructor or student enters the room _*but*_ not just anyone can enter the room. The doors are locked and no one other than students and instructors comes to our class unless invited to do so by the instructors. Thus, we're only standing when we have a special guest such as our medical director, hospital staff, etc. If I was jumping up and down throughout the class I'd be pretty distracted, but that hasn't been the case.


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## JPINFV (Sep 10, 2008)

[note, "you" is used generically in the following post]

As Anthony said in the other thread, maybe the issue of enforced discipline is inversely proportional to the average quality of the students involved. For the record, since it does matter in terms of classroom experience, I spent most of my high school in advanced placement classes (oh, God, though, college prep English was a waste of time because of the morons), went straight into a 4 year university, and then went to grad school. 

As far as uniforms, no one cared what people wore to class (provided they wore something). Heck, in most of my classes (and, again, for the record, from what I've seen regarding medical students) no one cared if you even showed up. For grad school (which included several courses that were exactly the same, including the exams and professors, as the first year medical students) 90+% of the lectures were recorded and available online and the "syllabus" for each course  was essentially a text book written jointly by the professors (e.g. the syllabus for biochem was over 400 pages, and yes, we did go through all of it) who were teaching the course. Now, if you don't show up and fail the course, then it was oh well, so sad, enjoy retaking the course, or in grad school, retaking the final over summer (not to replace the final grade, but to get graduation credit. This seems to be standard practice in grad schools, including medical school). Yes, there were people, smart people, who didn't pass a few of the classes. 

Now the comment that keeps being made for uniforms is respect. I'm sorry, but why is it the instructors who, in many cases, might have an associates degree the ones concerned about what students sitting in a class room wear and not the ones with PhDs and/or MDs, active research with publications, and teaching at major, highly rated universities? As such, I think it's a tad overboard when instructors expect formal signs of "respect" such as standing when people enter the room. No, this is not the same as referring to a person by a title like "Doctor..." or "Professor.." or "Mr." and their last name. No, this is not the same as holding a door open for the person behind you till they either pass or are close enough to hold the door open themselves (versus letting it close in their face). No, this isn't the same as telling the cashier "thank you" when they give you your change back. There is a difference between showing true respect and following silly rituals to stoke someone's ego. 

As far as teaching respect, professionalism, and the like, again I don't see the point. Respect and professionalism are essentially synonymous. Dressing professionally and neatly is showing respect for both yourself and your profession. Treating customers (i.e. patients) and associates (i.e. other emergency and health care workers as well as coworkers, supervisors, so on) with respect is professionalism. If mama and daddy didn't teach you how to show proper respect to yourself and others as a kid like saying "please" and "thank you", then you aren't going to learn it in a 110 hour, or 900 hour course either. If you lack the ability to show simple respect/professionalism, then prehospital emergency care, or any job that is highly reliant on other or deals with the public, is not the place for you. Do everyone a favor and go find another job. Stop wasting my fellow student's time, my instructor's time, and my time by requiring pomp and circumstance that is supposed to teach you something that you should have learned by first grade.


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## Ridryder911 (Sep 10, 2008)

The problem is that *they are not learning such in the first grade anymore. * 

I just started teaching a Basic class last Monday. Out of the 22 or so students about 3 were appropriately dressed. Many had shorts, flip flops, tank tops, wore hats in the class room, etc. This is being professional? 

Sorry, what one does in between classes represents how they will project themselves in the profession. Its a creature of habit. 

Be at least respectful to me, the profession and to the patients by taking enough interest in dressing appropriately. Is it really that hard? What type of person demonstrates such lack of concern about the appearance and the projection he presents our profession? 

It is not just being respectful, it is having manners, and couth something we are seeing less and less of for no reason. Just alike vocabulary, this is one of the many ways people are immediately judged upon albeit right or wrong, it is. 

You are right, as an instructor I should not have to "tell" a class. Unfortunately, that is not the case. For some reason my generation dropped common sense and manners, respect from the required parent teaching criteria. Now, we are suffering from it. 

R/r 911


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## reaper (Sep 10, 2008)

Hey now, 

 My kids were taught manners and respect, it is enforced. I am surprised at how many people tell me how well mannered my kids are. I never think about it with them. All kids should be that way. 

As Rid stated, we as the parents are responsible for what has been created in todays youth. I see to many parents that want to be their kids buddy and don't provide discipline. A little hint to new parents. Your kids will have plenty of friends, what they need from you is a parent who will teach them right and wrong.

EMT classes should be told on the first day of class, what is expected. If they come the next day and are not dressed correctly, send them home. Like I stated several times. I am all for uniforms in class and clinicals. It shows professionalism and generates a team concept. I like classes that bond tightly. They study together and work together. These are much easier to teach then a class of individuals!


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## John E (Sep 10, 2008)

*Regarding the idea...*

that if a person doesn't already know how to show respect for others, including their instructors, superiors, etc. that they never will.

That's just bull:censored::censored::censored::censored:.

Some people coast thru life without ever being challenged to show respect for anyone, if they decide for whatever reason to take an EMT class and find that they'll either learn to show respect for others or fail, some of them will learn. Some of them will undoubtedly fail. Good, they should.

Stating that if they haven't already learned they won't learn is just nonsense.

Not saying that every student will become a model citizen, nor am I saying that every student should be bowing and scraping whenever someone enters the room. We're talking about taking some basic steps to instill some basic ideas of both showing respect for one's teachers as well as your fellow students and of course, your patients.

I'm a little surprised to see such reluctance to enforcing some pretty simple rules and making some pretty basic uniform/clothing requirements mandatory. If a person is going to work in the EMS field, at some point they're gonna be wearing a uniform, whether it's BDU's, polo shirts, scrubs, turnouts,or a shirt and tie it's gonna happen. Teaching them from the beginning what is acceptable is simply smart.

John E.


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## mikie (Sep 10, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> I just started teaching a Basic class last Monday. Out of the 22 or so students about 3 were appropriately dressed. Many had shorts, flip flops, tank tops, wore hats in the class room, etc.



What would you consider appropriate for a basic class?  I just became a TA (teaching assistant) for a basic class and had the same scenario with the students.

edit: this is a college class, 1800-2200


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## JPINFV (Sep 10, 2008)

mikie333 said:


> edit: this is a college class, 1800-2200



What's a "1800-2200?" (different schools use different course numbering systems. My undergraduate, for example, used 0-99 for lower division, 100-199 for upper division, and 200-299 for graduate courses. I don't recall, off the top of my head, what the professional degrees (medicine, business school, etc) used, but each had their own 100 block of numbers).


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## medicdan (Sep 10, 2008)

mikie333 said:


> this is a college class, 1800-2200



I think he is commenting on the time that the class meets, in military time, that is 6PM-10PM.


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## Airwaygoddess (Sep 10, 2008)

*Thank you!*



Hastings said:


> Definitely puts you way ahead of the crowd when applying for a position in this field.    Everyone can thank my parents for that sense of pride and work ethic.


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## BossyCow (Sep 10, 2008)

As some of you may have guessed, I take my classes pretty seriously. I spend at least an hour of prep for each hour that I teach and it really irritates me to see students not taking it seriously. I begin each class I teach by lifting up my cell phone to the class and telling them I am turning mine off and instructing them to do the same. 

I have not instituted dress regulations but I have thought about it seriously. I have told students that their attire was not appropriate and constituted a safety hazard. You can't climb in and out of a rig or run a gurney over a bumpy lawn in flip flops. 

In SAR most of our members are professionals by their own right and come to class after work. I have never seen anyone come to a SAR drill that wasn't dressed appropriately for the activity we had planned. 

I guess my age is showing because I like the formality. I like being able to treat people, students, patients, co-workers and my own children with respect. I think its becoming passe to honor those little niceties with each other. And that saddens me.


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## Hastings (Sep 11, 2008)

mikie333 said:


> What would you consider appropriate for a basic class?  I just became a TA (teaching assistant) for a basic class and had the same scenario with the students.
> 
> edit: this is a college class, 1800-2200



Actually, not only is the situation Rid mentioned inappropriate from a respect/professionalism point of view, but a practical manner. 

In my program, you got kicked out if you wore anything except clean steel toe shoes.

My opinion? Black steel toe shoes, navy professional pants, class uniform shirt. All clothes clean and smooth, all hair short (or pulled up) and clean. No facial hair. No piercings. No hats. Well-kept.


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## mycrofft (Sep 11, 2008)

*BC, It allows the class to get to business. "Me teacher, you student. Hear we go".*

(Pun intended).
Oh, and there is a good legal reason for explicit dress codes, too, besides safety. I fail to believe anyone can tolerate absolutely anything worn to the classroom, no matter how laissez faire they care to appear. Without firm guidelines you shade over into unacceptable clothing. How about pajamas? Underwear (male or female or switched)? Pants drooped down? How about clothing which is obviously making the student uncomfortable despite being hip and hot? If you say "no" without a rule, you are administering unfair and possibly discriminatory treatment, unequal, and you can wind up meauriong hemlines or haircuts like we had done to us in the Sixties.
(PS: Note that I did not specify WHAT the dress code specifies. Could be color of the pajamas...).


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## Hastings (Sep 11, 2008)

Actually, I want to make it known that I wear my hair like David Bowie in his younger years, so hair is more lenient than the rest.


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## mycrofft (Sep 11, 2008)

*Must make for some real "helmet head"!*

..........


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## mikie (Sep 11, 2008)

JPINFV said:


> What's a "1800-2200?"



Sorry for the confusion, I did mean time.  

This class seems very Very VERY laid back (student-wise).  There are students in it I have doubts that will pass (those who don't take it very seriously at all).  I don't think the instructor has guidelines for the class regarding a dress code, but I do believe some sort of professionalism should be required, regardless of a collegiate class or not (ages 18-22ish).  

I think where the class is being taught has an influence on the dress code.  Ie- if the class is being taught at a private EMS institution, then YES a dress code should be enforced, whereas this class is full of college students with hectic lives already, mostly living on campus, relax it a bit.  

As long as no one is wearing skirts though on the days where we get 'physical...' h34r:


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## ChargerGirl (Sep 11, 2008)

i hate being called ma'am....makes me feel old but i guess its a southern thing


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## BossyCow (Sep 12, 2008)

ChargerGirl said:


> i hate being called ma'am....makes me feel old but i guess its a southern thing



Yeah, well I am old but nothing can make me feel old without my compliance. I'm not known for my complicance!


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