# I failed again for the 3rd time NREMT-P, please help!!



## sonnyevans2001 (Nov 23, 2011)

Hello, let me first start by saying I got cut off at 80 question and I left out of the testing center feeling somewhat good about it. Well I got my results and I didnt pass for the 3rd time and very upset as I want to pass this darn test more than anything right now. I was using the website emt-national-training and had been scroing very high in it. I also used and purchased passmedics notes as well. I was wondering if there was something else other than fisdap study tools which I just purchased that could help me? Also Im not in EMS im in the military so how would I go about getting a 48hr refresher and submitted in, as they are telling me this is required in order to take it again? Thanks for all your help!


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## mycrofft (Nov 23, 2011)

*Maybe rewrite and post thins in MILITARY?*

Maybe another military member will see it there?

It is not a good sign when folks start buying all the magic study notes and guides. Is this really for you?


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## firecoins (Nov 23, 2011)

you need to study from the normal books. The smaller notes just are sufficent, obviously if you failed 3 times from studying.


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## fast65 (Nov 23, 2011)

Quite honestly, if you've failed it three times, now is the time to question if being a paramedic is really for you. 

That being said, there's no use purchasing more study aids when you've already tried aids just like them that obviously didn't work. Like firecoins said, study from your paramedic text, that's the only true way to pass the NREMT. It's not a difficult test by any means, it is simply there to determine whether you know the bare minimum that is required to be a paramedic, and you should know that info at this point in the game.


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## Veneficus (Nov 23, 2011)

fast65 said:


> Quite honestly, if you've failed it three times, now is the time to question if being a paramedic is really for you.



What makes you say that?

Extensive experience as an educator?

One of the best medics I ever met had to take the test 5 times. He was educated to a higher level prior to medic school and couldn't effectively dumb himself down to national registry.


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## fast65 (Nov 23, 2011)

Veneficus said:


> What makes you say that?
> 
> Extensive experience as an educator?
> 
> One of the best medics I ever met had to take the test 5 times. He was educated to a higher level prior to medic school and couldn't effectively dumb himself down to national registry.



My own personal opinion, I assumed that as a forum it could be assumed that my posts are my own opinion? 

If this is a case like the one you mentioned, then I apologize. If not, then I stand by my statement.


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## Anjel (Nov 23, 2011)

Veneficus said:


> What makes you say that?
> 
> Extensive experience as an educator?
> 
> One of the best medics I ever met had to take the test 5 times. He was educated to a higher level prior to medic school and couldn't effectively dumb himself down to national registry.



Woahhhh you posted.

And what you are saying definitely isn't the norm.

It is a hard test from what I heard. But if you know your stuff I don't see why you should have to buy all these extra cheat.sheeta.juat to help you pass.

OP... You may of taken a bad program....have poor study skills, bad at test taking. Just know your stuff in and out keep trying or retake the program.


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## Veneficus (Nov 23, 2011)

*If I may?*

I am not convinced the cases are similar, but I do have some insight on the system.

In the last and the current curriculum  (the latest one,) there is an increase in basic science as well as its emphasis over skills.

As such there is a probalem across the nation as many instructors have no background in these sciences, becomming instructors based on their time in EMS. 

In the past, memorizing disconnected facts related to EMS was enough to pass and that is no longer the case.

Though every EMS publisher including one I contract to is creating powerpoints to present to students for instructors that have no idea what they are teaching.

As such, at this moment in history there is a very high likelyhood the problem is with the instruction.

To add to that, this soldier mentioned he was in the army, so he may have stressors and responsibilities that preclude a focus on academic performance. As well as a predisposition towards "what is needed to be known for the field."

As well acclimation from military to civillian world takes some time, and trying to pass a medic exam during, it is in my teaching experience, very difficult for the students.

If he is a medic, he may also simply not know what he doesn't know about civilian medicine but his military training allows him to take a test he is not prepared for and there is an under estimation of what is involved.

I would agree with your assessment if it were a different time in EMS and you were replying to some person whos only focus was passing paramedic class. 

But as it stands today, the old wisdom does not apply.

Anjel, I told firetender I would extend some charity


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## Handsome Robb (Nov 23, 2011)

Anjel1030 said:


> It is a hard test from what I heard. But if you know your stuff I don't see why you should have to buy all these extra cheat.sheeta.juat to help you pass.



See I heard the complete opposite. Everyone I've talked to said it isn't very difficult at all. On the other hand my class final is going to be a :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: and a half.


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## FourLoko (Nov 23, 2011)

oh, I love these threads


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## Trauma_Junkie (Nov 23, 2011)

NVRob said:


> See I heard the complete opposite. Everyone I've talked to said it isn't very difficult at all. On the other hand my class final is going to be a :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: and a half.



That's the vibe I'm getting from talking to current medics that took their medic class with our instructor.


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## rhan101277 (Nov 23, 2011)

Trauma_Junkie said:


> That's the vibe I'm getting from talking to current medics that took their medic class with our instructor.



Getting through the paramedic course should be more difficult that the test for sure.


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## Handsome Robb (Nov 23, 2011)

rhan101277 said:


> Getting through the paramedic course should be more difficult that the test for sure.



Rumor has it the fastest finish time on our final is 5.75 hrs. h34r: :blink:


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## medic417 (Nov 23, 2011)

http://www.jonpuryear.com/  Does some live online refreshers.  Not sure when the next one is but the web site should say.  Might also check with percomonline.com.


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## CHITOWNMEDIC (Nov 23, 2011)

*Passing the NR EMT*

All I know is that this was the first time I took their test and I made sure I slept well the night prior to taking the written. But I've also been a medic since 1984 so I don't know what advice I can give in regards to doing anything different to pass the written. There were some very unusual questions on the written I took Tuesday but I either used a process of elimination & checked the answer that would make sense to the NR, or just took an educated quess, it worked for me. Now all I have is the practical to finish .


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## bigbaldguy (Nov 23, 2011)

sonnyevans2001 said:


> Hello, let me first start by saying I got cut off at 80 question and I left out of the testing center feeling somewhat good about it. Well I got my results and I didnt pass for the 3rd time and very upset as I want to pass this darn test more than anything right now. I was using the website emt-national-training and had been scroing very high in it. I also used and purchased passmedics notes as well. I was wondering if there was something else other than fisdap study tools which I just purchased that could help me? Also Im not in EMS im in the military so how would I go about getting a 48hr refresher and submitted in, as they are telling me this is required in order to take it again? Thanks for all your help!



Have you been evaluated for a learning disability? It could be something to look into. Many cases of ADD, dyslexia ect. go undiagnosed into adult hood and they can effect your test taking skills.


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## Farmer2DO (Nov 24, 2011)

NVRob said:


> See I heard the complete opposite. Everyone I've talked to said it isn't very difficult at all. On the other hand my class final is going to be a :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: and a half.



I don't know if you have a state final, or if you just do NREMT-P, but you will be grateful when you get to your certifying exam that your class final was a bear.  You will be able to walk out of the certifying exam saying "Wow, did I miss something?  That wasn't bad at all."  My paramedic original class had a 100% pass rate on the state final if the person got through the class final OK.  (Ours was 2 nights, 4 hours each.)


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## usafmedic45 (Nov 24, 2011)

Veneficus said:


> What makes you say that?
> 
> Extensive experience as an educator?
> 
> One of the best medics I ever met had to take the test 5 times. He was educated to a higher level prior to medic school and couldn't effectively dumb himself down to national registry.



Yeah, but you and I both know that there are statistical abberations in any population.  Your friend is one of them.  Chances are the OP is not.  As an educator with a fair amount of experience, I'd like to point out that someone who fails the exam more than once is probably not cut out for the field. 



> Getting through the paramedic course should be more difficult that the test for sure.



If you're not washing out 50-75% of a class (before they ever make it to the final exam let alone the state or national credentialing process), you should seriously be considering whether to increase the standards.


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## Martyn (Nov 24, 2011)

sonnyevans2001 said:


> Hello, let me first start by saying I got cut off at 80 question and I left out of the testing center feeling somewhat good about it. Well I got my results and I didnt pass for the 3rd time and very upset as I want to pass this darn test more than anything right now. I was using the website emt-national-training and had been scroing very high in it. I also used and purchased passmedics notes as well. I was wondering if there was something else other than fisdap study tools which I just purchased that could help me? *Also Im not in EMS im in the military* so how would I go about getting a 48hr refresher and submitted in, as they are telling me this is required in order to take it again? Thanks for all your help!


 
One question everyone seems to have missed, if you are in the military, not in EMS, what type of course have you actually done? Was it through the military? Was it a civilian college course or what?


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## Veneficus (Nov 24, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> Yeah, but you and I both know that there are statistical abberations in any population.  Your friend is one of them.  Chances are the OP is not.  As an educator with a fair amount of experience, I'd like to point out that someone who fails the exam more than once is probably not cut out for the field.



I thought that way at one time, but as I see more and more good people stumble over mutliple choice exams that do not measure any level of knowledge, but the ability to identify similar concepts I have had a change of heart.



usafmedic45 said:


> If you're not washing out 50-75% of a class (before they ever make it to the final exam let alone the state or national credentialing process), you should seriously be considering whether to increase the standards.



While stimulating for debate, this is not the case. University classes are designed that 75% fall within the C average in a gausian distribution. As EMS very very slowly moves into an education rather than a vocation, it will have to meet the same criteria that other educational programs fall into.

This past year, the US EMS school I teach at received its certification audit. Now one of the State criteria for certification of the educational institution is an attrition rate below 20%

This is done for a couple of reasons. 

The most important is to put a premium on front end selection, to make sure unqualified candidates are not simply being used as a cash cow and droppped before examination so the pass rate is high enough to maintain the school's certification.

The other is for the protection of the students who will in all likelyhood be taking out educational loans in order to pay for the classes. Allowing students in and then dropping them without refund saddles them with an educational debt that will not go away and not give them the opportunity to enter a workforce in order to pay off said debt.

Any organization that has a fail rate of >25% probably has serious organizational deficencies if not teaching staff who need to be unemployed.

The purpose of education is to teach, not to weed out.

I find it rather ironic that practicioners in perhaps the world's most dysfunctional healthcare system talk about weeding people out.

Especially considering that there are very few healthcare systems that have ancillary providers outside of nursing and radiology and nobody else has anywhere near the level of them the US does.

If you want to start weeding people out, unecessary providers are a better start than candidates.


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## DrankTheKoolaid (Nov 24, 2011)

*re*



Veneficus said:


> I thought that way at one time, but as I see more and more good people stumble over mutliple choice exams that do not measure any level of knowledge, but the ability to identify similar concepts I have had a change of heart.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nicely said. 

Before going into education myself I used to say there was no such thing as a bad class, just bad students.  Reason being as long as you received a textbook etc etc on the material to be covered you as the student had the responsibility to read study learn it.  Now being on the other side I realize that is just not the case.  With so many learning styles, if the instructor is not in tune to or even understands what they are then a good majority of a class will struggle or even fail.    OP has not reposted to say if he was able to sit through the NREMT due to military status or taking a traditional course.   If taking a traditional course something obviously was missed.  Be it his test taking skills ( coping strategies for testing anxiety ) or he simply never had a true fundemental understanding of the material. 

To restate the obvious, NREMT CBT really is not a good measure of a paramedics ability or knowledge in my opinion. Instead it tests the students ability to test as there are very few straight forward questions on it.


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## CHITOWNMEDIC (Nov 24, 2011)

*NREMT Refresher .*

Another idea is to see if anyone near you has a refresher. Loyola Hospital outside Chicago has one & I've heard that it has helped with some others that had been having a difficult time with the exam process .


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## julesdamedic (Nov 24, 2011)

sonnyevans2001 said:


> Hello, let me first start by saying I got cut off at 80 question and I left out of the testing center feeling somewhat good about it. Well I got my results and I didnt pass for the 3rd time and very upset as I want to pass this darn test more than anything right now. I was using the website emt-national-training and had been scroing very high in it. I also used and purchased passmedics notes as well. I was wondering if there was something else other than fisdap study tools which I just purchased that could help me? Also Im not in EMS im in the military so how would I go about getting a 48hr refresher and submitted in, as they are telling me this is required in order to take it again? Thanks for all your help!



Did you take the fisdap exam or just the study tools?  If you're doing the same things over and over...you'll get the same result.


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## BigBad (Nov 25, 2011)

Did you have this kind of trouble during your classroom exams?


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## usafmedic45 (Nov 25, 2011)

> This past year, the US EMS school I teach at received its certification audit. Now one of the State criteria for certification of the educational institution is an attrition rate below 20%



Then you start cranking up the entrance requirements.  Either way, about 50-75% of current EMS students have no business being allowed out in the field.



> I find it rather ironic that practicioners in perhaps the world's most dysfunctional healthcare system talk about weeding people out.



The prehospital side of the coin is dysfunctional largely due to the practice of letting just about anyone with a body temperature above ambient to get their credentials.



> Any organization that has a fail rate of >25% probably has serious organizational deficencies if not teaching staff who need to be unemployed.



It's odd because the folks that did pass had scores in the high 80s to low 90s so I'm guessing it wasn't due to poor education.  There are just a lot of really lazy and/or stupid EMS students out there.


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## RocketMedic (Nov 26, 2011)

Im an active duty medic more than willing to help tutor you, in person if youre on Fort Bliss. PM me if youre interested.


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## DV_EMT (Nov 27, 2011)

FourLoko said:


> oh, I love these threads



Oh quite... it's always fun to see the bantering ^_^


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## calypso (Dec 14, 2011)

This test does NOT prove AT ALL weather or not you’re going to be an awesome Paramedic or a crappy paramedic. So for those who think someone needs to change occupations based on an exam they have failed 3x or 5x is a total moron!!..


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## STXmedic (Dec 14, 2011)

calypso said:


> This test does NOT prove AT ALL weather or not you’re going to be an awesome Paramedic or a crappy paramedic. So for those who think someone needs to change occupations based on an exam they have failed 3x or 5x is a total moron!!..



You mean somebody that can't grasp the BASIC concepts of the profession (which is what NREMT tests) should be allowed to practice? Because I sure as hell wouldn't want them touching me. Or are you going with the "Poor test-taking" approach? ie Not good or clear-headed under stressful situations. Because I wouldn't want them touching me either.

Maybe not absolutely change careers, but it should be seriously thought about. My A&P teacher once told me "Structure determines function." I may want with all my will to be a pro football player; that, however, will never happen. I lack the physical capability from a genetic standpoint. I may want to be a famous artist. Also will not happen, I am not wired to be artistic. Just because this isn't your strong-suit does not make you a failure. You just need to determine your function.


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## calypso (Dec 14, 2011)

So taking a test and actually working on someone is the same? is that what your saying?...I have talked to Several Paramedic instructors and one in Particular said that his best medic students were not the ones that got 100% on all tests and Passed the NREMT on the first try but the ones that Barely passed the course and took a few times to pass the NREMT. I asked why and he said because those students are a genius when it comes to hands on and common sense versus textbook knowledge students who don’t have a clue on what to do when they are put in real life situations.


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## mycrofft (Dec 14, 2011)

*Knowledge allows you to make correct decisions*

Tests indicate the amount of knowledge. Now, test anxiety can mask knowledge, but people who can't pass the test generally didn't get it in class so they won't have it in the field.

The moron is the one who wades in and tries to do things she/he shouldn't because they don't know what they are doing. The smart person is the one who either finds a way to beat test anxiety, or realizes they are knowledge deficient and figure how to either fix it, or set it aside and aim elsewhere. The OP is not a moron.
LEt's cut out the moron stuff.


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## STXmedic (Dec 14, 2011)

calypso said:


> So taking a test and actually working on someone is the same? is that what your saying?...I have talked to Several Paramedic instructors and one in Particular said that his best medic students were not the ones that got 100% on all tests and Passed the NREMT on the first try but the ones that Barely passed the course and took a few times to pass the NREMT. I asked why and he said because those students are a genius when it comes to hands on and common sense versus textbook knowledge students who don’t have a clue on what to do when they are put in real life situations.



Oh, well in that case I retract my statement! If your paramedic instructor said that, it MUST be true! After all, paramedic instructors are all-knowing gods of prehospital medicine! 

/end sarcasm.

So you're telling me that someone that does not have a firm grip on the science that is medicine, can not pass a test over the basics of what they just went to school a year for, but can start an IV like a pro makes a great medic? ...If that's what helps you sleep at night, keep telling yourself that. The best medics that I'VE ever had the pleasure of working with were all quite brilliant, extremely book smart, and passed the test the first time around. And amazingly, apparently book smarts and common sense CAN coexist :-o Crazy, whod-a-thunk it h34r:

Conversely, I've known many medics who did pass after failing it once, TWICE, or even three times. I wouldn't let the majority of those medics touch my dog, let alone my family. I could care less how well you can intubate, if you can start IVs with your eyes closed, or whatever other hands on skills you can think of. And if you're becoming a paramedic and the only thing you have to offer is common sense....... *sigh*

But then again, an instructor DID tell you that that's what makes a great medic.


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## usafmedic45 (Dec 14, 2011)

> I wouldn't let the majority of those medics touch my dog, let alone my family.



Hell, if I could stop them from touching themselves, I would...but you know the slow and weak amongst us must have some way to occupy their time between retesting.


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## traumaluv2011 (Dec 14, 2011)

I talked to a lot of classmates from my EMT class that finished back in May. It seems like I'm one of the few people that passed. Everyone has either been too busy to take it or has been trying to pass the practical, which I passed the first time.


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## Handsome Robb (Dec 14, 2011)

calypso said:


> So taking a test and actually working on someone is the same? is that what your saying?...I have talked to Several Paramedic instructors and one in Particular said that his best medic students were not the ones that got 100% on all tests and Passed the NREMT on the first try but the ones that Barely passed the course and took a few times to pass the NREMT. I asked why and he said because those students are a genius when it comes to hands on and common sense versus textbook knowledge students who don’t have a clue on what to do when they are put in real life situations.



I get great grades in class. Does that mean I can't apply it in the field? By this statement that's what you're implying. 

Ask my partner how he feels about the care I provide.

Don't poke your nose where it doesn't belong, please. I'm with Fast on this one, except for a few statistical anomalies if you can't pass the NREMT in a couple tries you have no business caring for people. That goes for any level, B, I or P.


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## calypso (Dec 15, 2011)

You’re missing the point. Based on what the paramedic teacher told me and from his experience most of the students that barely pass the class tend to become better paramedics than those who passed with ease. I didn’t say that he said ALL.  And you’re completely wrong on if you can't pass the NREMT in a couple tries you have no business caring for people... For example, 

Henry Ford had 5 failed Business's before he founded ford motor company. I guess he shouldn’t be in the business field after the first few attempts right? 

Bill Gates first Business was a failure after dropping out of Harvard.


 Albert Einstein: Most of us take Einstein's name as synonymous with genius, but he didn't always show such promise. Einstein did not speak until he was four and did not read until he was seven, causing his teachers and parents to think he was mentally handicapped, slow and anti-social. Eventually, he was expelled from school and was refused admittance to the Zurich Polytechnic School. It might have taken him a bit longer, but most people would agree that he caught on pretty well in the end, winning the Nobel Prize and changing the face of modern physics.

So I guess those who haven’t passed the NREMT on the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 
5th time are mentally handicapped right?

Thomas Edison: In his early years, teachers told Edison he was "too stupid to learn anything." Work was no better, as he was fired from his first two jobs for not being productive enough. Even as an inventor, Edison made 1,000 unsuccessful attempts at inventing the light bulb. Of course, all those unsuccessful attempts finally resulted in the design that worked.

He has no business continuing on after the first 100 attempts right?

Stephen King: The first book by this author, the iconic thriller Carrie, received 30 rejections, finally causing King to give up and throw it in the trash. His wife fished it out and encouraged him to resubmit it, and the rest is history, with King now having hundreds of books published the distinction of being one of the best-selling authors of all time.

Michael Jordan: Most people wouldn't believe that a man often lauded as the best basketball player of all time was actually cut from his high school basketball team. Luckily, Jordan didn't let this setback stop him from playing the game and he has stated, "I have missed more than 9,000 shots in my career. I have lost almost 300 games. On 26 occasions I have been entrusted to take the game winning shot, and I missed. I have failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."



So to the person that has failed a few times already, I say don’t give up. You will get it and you will make a fantastic EMT-B or P.


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## Remeber343 (Dec 15, 2011)

Or he will end up seriously hurting or killing a patient due to incompetents.


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## Handsome Robb (Dec 15, 2011)

Remeber343 said:


> Or he will end up seriously hurting or killing a patient due to incompetents.



This.

Calypso I see what you're saying but you're comparing apples to bananas.

From everyone that I've talked to the NREMT isn't a tough test whatsoever. The school I go to has something like a 95% first time pass rate on it and near 100% on the second attempt. 

Sure you can get screwed by missing the one and only ops question, but if that's the case you damn well better spend some time studying ops so you don't do it again. 

Like I said before there are exceptions to the rule but if you can't troubleshoot why you're failing a test how do you expect to troubleshoot why someone's life is circling the toilet in front of your eyes?


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## STXmedic (Dec 15, 2011)

calypso said:


> You’re missing the point. Based on what the paramedic teacher told me and from his experience most of the students that barely pass the class tend to become better paramedics than those who passed with ease. I didn’t say that he said ALL.  And you’re completely wrong on if you can't pass the NREMT in a couple tries you have no business caring for people... For example,
> 
> Henry Ford had 5 failed Business's before he founded ford motor company. I guess he shouldn’t be in the business field after the first few attempts right?
> 
> ...


http://www.taylorstudymethod.com/eppp-blog/comments/failure-and-the-eppp-looking-on-the-bright-side

LMAO!!

Guess what none of your famous failures had: The opportunity to readily cause harm to people on a daily basis. Medicine is not business. Medicine is not sports, writing, production, computer engineering or whatever other profession you feel to insert! If you don't get the correct filament in a lightbulb, people don't DIE! While not every call is life and death, the opportunity to cause harm will present itself. How about some failed medical providers:

http://www.bwglaw.com/lawyer-attorney-1368170.html

http://www.thelegalguardian.com/EMS_Case_Review.php#

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-11-07/...orney-ed-chernoff-conrad-murray?_s=PM:JUSTICE

There are MANY far more relevant examples, but sifting through them on my phone is no fun. USAF I'm sure has an abundance of such articles.


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## calypso (Dec 15, 2011)

LMAO!! ANY idiot could forget a key to the medication needed for a call. That has nothing to do with passing or failing an exam or knowledge. That has to do with pure idiocy. And those people are not only in the Medical field. I’m curious to know if that person passed his exam on the first try.

Michael Jackson case are you kidding me. That Dr knew exactly what he was doing. He knew what he was doing was wrong. Once again THIS has nothing to do with passing an exam on the first or fifth time in regard to if a person should not be practicing any field of study based on that.. This is another example of a knowledgeable professional who was making a poor judgment. I would also be curious to know if Murray passed is Doctor of Medicine on the first try or not. I’m going to assume he did.

I’m trying to help a person know that even though he has not passed his exam yet it doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t be an EMT/Paramedic. Just means that you don’t give up and try a different option on knowing the information and winning the game of the NREMT.


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## usafmedic45 (Dec 15, 2011)

The most dangerous phrase to ever come out of the mouth of an EMT-B (with fewer than 5-10 years of experience in a busy 911 service) or a student at any level is any phrase starting with "Based upon my experience...." and followed closely by "My instructor told me..."



> Based on what the paramedic teacher told me and from his experience most of the students that barely pass the class tend to become better paramedics than those who passed with ease. I didn’t say that he said ALL.



Ever heard of a confirmation bias?  Selection bias?  Your instructor and yourself seem to be very fond of that.  Pointing out folks who pulled themselves up by their bootstraps when they are the gross minority in the population is classic selection bias.



> Bill Gates first Business was a failure after dropping out of Harvard.



Actually, that's a myth.  Microsoft was the first business he and his friends founded (according to Wikipedia and a couple of other sources I checked) and I wouldn't exactly call it a failure.  



> So I guess those who haven’t passed the NREMT on the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and
> 5th time are mentally handicapped right?



There's a difference between stupid and mentally handicapped.  The mentally handicapped can't help it.  Most people who fail the NREMT exams do so because of laziness, excessive confidence in their knowledge of a very simplistic rendition of a complex subject or some other character flaw.   Stupidity is not the lack of knowledge.  It is the unwillingness to put forth the effort to make oneself smarter. 



> There are MANY far more relevant examples, but sifting through them on my phone is no fun. USAF I'm sure has an abundance of such articles.



Yeah, but I don't think he's really in the mood to listen to it.


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## firetender (Dec 15, 2011)

*The OP is gone....*

The fact of the matter is, he won't be in the field if he gives up. No harm, no foul. However, if he really works hard, because maybe he has to, he'll get in the field yet, most of the seers and prophets here are sure he'll kill someone.

If he comes back, we'll never know because he's been branded and isn't likely to ever use that name again!

It's the surety of the naysayers that makes me :rofl:


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## Martyn (Dec 15, 2011)

calypso said:


> I’m trying to help a person know that even though he has not passed his exam yet it doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t be an EMT/Paramedic. Just means that you don’t give up and try a different option on knowing the information and winning the game of the NREMT.


 
Game? Darn it, I thought it was a serious thing!!!

«««     I passed first time thinking 'That was


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## calypso (Dec 15, 2011)

Hello usafmedic45,
First of all I NEVER said "Based upon my experience" I said "Based on what the paramedic teacher told me and from his experience". I also NEVER said "My instructor told me" I said "Based on what the paramedic teacher told me". THE paramedic teacher. I never said MY paramedic teacher. That teacher has 18+ years of experience also.....

You need to read my post correctly before you post. I’m not trying to be rude... just saying.

I understand that the NREMT is an easy exam. But for some it may not come across as easy that doesn’t mean that they should be encouraged to switch careers. I know SEVERAL and I mean SEVERAL nurses that didn’t pass the nursing boards till like the 3rd try. They eventually passed and they are excellent nurses. Yes I know Paramedic and nurses are different but I'm just saying.


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## STXmedic (Dec 15, 2011)

calypso said:


> LMAO!! ANY idiot could forget a key to the medication needed for a call. That has nothing to do with passing or failing an exam or knowledge. That has to do with pure idiocy. And those people are not only in the Medical field. I’m curious to know if that person passed his exam on the first try.
> 
> Michael Jackson case are you kidding me. That Dr knew exactly what he was doing. He knew what he was doing was wrong. Once again THIS has nothing to do with passing an exam on the first or fifth time in regard to if a person should not be practicing any field of study based on that.. This is another example of a knowledgeable professional who was making a poor judgment. I would also be curious to know if Murray passed is Doctor of Medicine on the first try or not. I’m going to assume he did.
> 
> I’m trying to help a person know that even though he has not passed his exam yet it doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t be an EMT/Paramedic. Just means that you don’t give up and try a different option on knowing the information and winning the game of the NREMT.



What I was getting at, and what you obviously missed, is that in this field mistakes can potentially have serious consequences. Unlike in other professions where you shrug it off and try again, no harm no foul.

Oh, and when did NR become a game? I was pretty sure it was an evaluation of knowledge taught for certification into a profession (not getting into the profession debate...). Maybe one of the problems is immaturity and every young yahoo looking for an adrenaline rush thinking this the field for them.

I am all for helping people, and have gone well out of my way to do so on numerous occasions. I love having students and young providers to teach and help progress to becoming even better at what they do. However, again, this profession is not for everybody. I don't think that you should push and push somebody that obviously isn't comprehending the information. Anybody can figure out how to pass a standard test after 6 attempts. Just because they finally pass the test does not automatically make them competent EMTs or medics, or that they will become one.


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## STXmedic (Dec 15, 2011)

calypso said:


> I know SEVERAL and I mean SEVERAL nurses that didn’t pass the nursing boards till like the 3rd try. They eventually passed and they are excellent nurses. Yes I know Paramedic and nurses are different but I'm just saying.


Excellent by what standards? Are they excellent because they know things you've never heard of?


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## Veneficus (Dec 15, 2011)

PoeticInjustice said:


> What I was getting at, and what you obviously missed, is that in this field mistakes can potentially have serious consequences. Unlike in other professions where you shrug it off and try again, no harm no foul.
> 
> Oh, and when did NR become a game? I was pretty sure it was an evaluation of knowledge taught for certification into a profession (not getting into the profession debate...). Maybe one of the problems is immaturity and every young yahoo looking for an adrenaline rush thinking this the field for them.
> 
> I am all for helping people, and have gone well out of my way to do so on numerous occasions. I love having students and young providers to teach and help progress to becoming even better at what they do. However, again, this profession is not for everybody. I don't think that you should push and push somebody that obviously isn't comprehending the information. Anybody can figure out how to pass a standard test after 6 attempts. Just because they finally pass the test does not automatically make them competent EMTs or medics, or that they will become one.




I just have to ask...

Do doctors never make mistakes that have serious consequences?

The fact is nobody is perfect and everyone makes mistakes, somehow thinking the NREMT test is the definitive authority on what makes a good provider is flawed.

All it does it demonstrate you met their minimum requirements, which are rather conservative anyway.

I probably would have trouble passing a basic test. I just don't think like that anymore.


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## usafmedic45 (Dec 15, 2011)

> I said "Based on what the paramedic teacher told me and from his experience". I also NEVER said "My instructor told me" I said "Based on what the paramedic teacher told me". THE paramedic teacher. I never said MY paramedic teacher. That teacher has 18+ years of experience also.....



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnO9Jyz82Ps[/YOUTUBE]

So you have problems with non-linear thought processes and any phrase that isn't glaringly spot-on pertinent to your comments....I'll remember to speak slower and use more monosyllabic words next time I try to explain something to you.



> You need to read my post correctly before you post.



Likewise.  I may tend to write rather long sentences but most people have little problem following what I am saying.



> Excellent by what standards? Are they excellent because they know things you've never heard of?



They're excellent because no one fails in our modern society. They are just the last winner!


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## Veneficus (Dec 15, 2011)

I don't think it is an issue of potential or not failing in society. 

I agree that not everyone has what it takes to function in a highly demanding job.

But let’s face it, with the existence of so many paramedic mills and their graduates, the paramedic material really can’t be that hard.

I have trouble believing, after some of my observations, that anyone doesn’t possess the intellectual potential to get into EMS. (moral and ethical character may be a limiting factor.)

But in any form of healthcare, the quality of instruction matters. Not only the raw material that anyone should be able to get out of a book, but also guidance in developing the proper mindset. Looking at the curriculum and what is expected of today's providers, I think the system has failed to adapt and provide that education in a majority of cases.

Some programs are more worried about whether or not your shirt is ready for military inspection than they are about teaching medical concepts. Even more are taught by anecdotes and other forms of “war story.”

Worse still, some instructors are teaching what they were taught. Much has changed. There is the issue of simply failing to go into depth of said material, or deflecting fault of the instructors’ shortcomings by the ever popular line: “That stuff doesn’t matter in the field.”

I find it strangely hypocritical that a member of the US armed services comes to the site seeking help in breaking into a civilian career and the overwhelming response is “too bad, so sad, you’re not cut out for it.” 

I wonder how many of those same nay sayers are quick to utter the phrase “thank you for your service” to a military member.

Seems a rather hollow statement.

Just my opinion, but I would think if one of the members of the US military came here asking for help, there should be an overwhelming show of support and eagerness to help, particularly from people who claim to highly value and honor such for their service and dedication.


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## STXmedic (Dec 15, 2011)

Vene, all of my posts, in regard to mistakes and not understanding the material, were all directed at medicine as a whole, not just EMTs.


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## usafmedic45 (Dec 15, 2011)

> I find it strangely hypocritical that a member of the US armed services comes to the site seeking help in breaking into a civilian career and the overwhelming response is “too bad, so sad, you’re not cut out for it.”
> 
> I wonder how many of those same nay sayers are quick to utter the phrase “thank you for your service” to a military member.
> 
> ...



I look at in the same way the military does:  Either you're cut out for a job or you are not.  There's no emotion, no consideration given.  If you can't hack it in a technical field, you guard planes, make food, hand out basketballs at the base gym or become cannon fodder.  It's not disrespectful or slighting in the least to hold them to the same standards that they voluntarily agreed to when they signed their lives away by joining the military.


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## Veneficus (Dec 15, 2011)

I see it as leaving somebody wounded on a battlefield.

I do not subscribe to "those who fall behind are left behind."


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## usafmedic45 (Dec 15, 2011)

> I see it as leaving somebody wounded on a battlefield.
> 
> I do not subscribe to "those who fall behind are left behind."



He didn't "fall on the field of battle".  He never made it out of his training like a recruit who fails out of basic training.  We're not leaving him behind either.  We're just putting him on the plane or buss and sending him home with the knowledge that he's not meant to do this.  Like I said, either you're cut out for the job or you're not.  There's nothing else that should factor into this equation.


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## Veneficus (Dec 15, 2011)

As I understand he was deployed, that puts him on the field. 

He now has the task of returning to the civillian world and being productive.

Like I said it is just my opinion, but I think that entitles somebody to a bit more consideration and support.

Personal value I guess.

I also put no value on a multiple choice test to determine a person's knowledge or ability.

If it were up to me, it would be an oral board in front of 3 examiners with no answers to choose from.


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## usafmedic45 (Dec 15, 2011)

> He now has the task of returning to the civillian world and being productive.



Two separate issues.  



> Like I said it is just my opinion, but I think that entitles somebody to a bit more consideration and support.


I'd like to be a pathologist but don't want to put in the effort.  Should I be allowed to slack off or cut corners simply because I was a member of the military?  I mean, do I really need to understand primary care medicine?  Shouldn't I be allowed to slack off and if I don't pass those rotations, it doesn't really matter all that much.

I realize that a large chunk of our military found themselves in of the bottom 20% of their respective high school classes (especially once you get out of the technical specialty fields) and given the economy it explains why so many of them enlisted, but simply having enlisted doesn't mean you get the bar lowered for you when it has the potential to harm others.


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## Veneficus (Dec 15, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> Two separate issues.
> 
> 
> I'd like to be a pathologist but don't want to put in the effort.  Should I be allowed to slack off or cut corners simply because I was a member of the military?  I mean, do I really need to understand primary care medicine?  Shouldn't I be allowed to slack off and if I don't pass those rotations, it doesn't really matter all that much.
> ...



I am not suggesting lowering the bar, I am suggesting giving extra help to meet it. 

There is a difference between not wanting to put in the effort and needing assistance properly directing your efforts.


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## usafmedic45 (Dec 15, 2011)

If someone fails the exam three times....that's a pretty good indication they are not going to probably succeed and if they do manage to pass after additional attempts, they are likely to have to be spoonfed for the rest of their career.  I see nothing wrong with holding veterans to a standard they are used to upholding.


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## Veneficus (Dec 15, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> If someone fails the exam three times....that's a pretty good indication they are not going to probably succeed and if they do manage to pass after additional attempts, they are likely to have to be spoonfed for the rest of their career.  I see nothing wrong with holding veterans to a standard they are used to upholding.



The standard is 3 attempts to pass.

Then mandatory refresher for 2 more attempts.

He has not failed the standard, he is still in play for the same standards every other paramedic student is held to.


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## 74restore (Dec 15, 2011)

Not taking sides on this thread here.... but from an outsider looking in at the field of prehospital medicine as a student:

If I was in a car accident or some other situation and needed medical attention, I wouldn't care how many times the paramedic or EMT treating me took the exam before they passed. A slightly incompetent medic is better than no medic at all. And this is also assuming the the incompetent medic has a partner and other individuals around them. 

I was taught to never give up... Sure the OP might need to take it more than once, but none of us know his situation, whether it's a learning issue or a nerves issue. 

Maybe this is me being naive as an outsider, but that's just my opinion. Who knows what my opinion will be after I take the EMT class and actually do the job. Take it with a grain of salt


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## usafmedic45 (Dec 15, 2011)

I argue that allowing even that many attempts is excessive.  If you can't pass it in two or three tries, sorry about your luck.   I don't believe that extra consideration should be given simply because he's a veteran.  That's akin to saying that you've earned the right to have your hand held because you're a foreign medical student.  

It's not quite the same as saying "Well, we should be nicer to him because he's black" or whatever, because his veteran status was a choice but I still dislike slanting the playing field to any degree.


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## usafmedic45 (Dec 15, 2011)

> A slightly incompetent medic is better than no medic at all.



That's arguable.  



> Maybe this is me being naive as an outsider, but that's just my opinion. Who knows what my opinion will be after I take the EMT class and actually do the job. Take it with a grain of salt



That's a very healthy attitude that you can be critical and admit the limitations of your own judgment.  Not a lot of people have that ability.  Don't let go of that ever.


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## Veneficus (Dec 15, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> I argue that allowing even that many attempts is excessive.  If you can't pass it in two or three tries, sorry about your luck.   I don't believe that extra consideration should be given simply because he's a veteran.  That's akin to saying that you've earned the right to have your hand held because you're a foreign medical student.
> 
> It's not quite the same as saying "Well, we should be nicer to him because he's black" or whatever, because his veteran status was a choice but I still dislike slanting the playing field to any degree.



I have held the hands of many students, both in the military and out. 

Some learn slower than others, In my opinion it doesn't make them lesser or unworthy.

Based on your statements here, military members or veterens should be given no bonus points, preferential seating, or any other form of favoritism or perk for having served? (just to mak sure it applies across the board)


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## Veneficus (Dec 15, 2011)

74restore said:


> A slightly incompetent medic is better than no medic at all.



I disagree with this statement without exception.

I am not arguing that a student should should not meet the standard.

I am arguing that this student may need and deserves extra help and guidance while still within the current standards.

USAF doesn't believe that excessive attempts are warrented.

I don't believe a multiple choice exam accurately measures knowledge or ability.

But I think that we both agree once you fail to meet the standard, the game is over.


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## usafmedic45 (Dec 15, 2011)

> Based on your statements here, military members or veterens should be given no bonus points, preferential seating, or any other form of favoritism or perk for having served? (just to mak sure it applies across the board)



Not when it comes to those aspects where the favoritism might endanger the welfare of others.  I have no problem with any of the other programs to support veterans however, I see no moral difference between someone who chooses to enlist versus someone who objects to military service and decides to serve their community in other ways.  That's my opinion as someone who served.  I'm happy and comfortable with the way I did my job but I don't think it makes me any better than the guy down the road who decided to be a volunteer firefighter or whatever instead of enlisting.


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## usafmedic45 (Dec 15, 2011)

> I don't believe a multiple choice exam accurately measures knowledge or ability.
> 
> But I think that we both agree once you fail to meet the standard, the game is over.



We do agree on both those points.


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## Veneficus (Dec 15, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> Not when it comes to those aspects where the favoritism might endanger the welfare of others.  I have no problem with any of the other programs to support veterans however, I see no moral difference between someone who chooses to enlist versus someone who objects to military service and decides to serve their community in other ways.  That's my opinion as someone who served.  I'm happy and comfortable with the way I did my job but I don't think it makes me any better than the guy down the road who decided to be a volunteer firefighter or whatever instead of enlisting.



But as you know, the fire service, many EMS services, and all levels of Law enforcement give a considerable bonus to exmilitary that are not also given to people who have been public servants on the civillian side.

I don't think it is fair somebody who served in the military should get a bonus when a guy who worked equally or longer as a police officer or firefighter doesn't.

But my opinion on that matters little.

Those occupations can cause injury.


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## usafmedic45 (Dec 15, 2011)

Veneficus said:


> But as you know, the fire service, many EMS services, and all levels of Law enforcement give a considerable bonus to exmilitary that are not also given to people who have been public servants on the civillian side.
> 
> I don't think it is fair somebody who served in the military should get a bonus when a guy who worked equally or longer as a police officer or firefighter doesn't.
> 
> ...



Which is exactly my point.  I tend to not have the highest opinion of the military (especially the Air Force) given the low quality of the leadership I worked with in the particular unit I was assigned to.  You could not get promoted without being corrupt and immoral and engaging in an uncalled for amount of bootlicking.


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## mycrofft (Dec 15, 2011)

*Back at the OP...*

He had no prior experience, his preparation was an online prep mill and Cliff's Notes, and he has the opportunity to try it again if/when he gets down and does it the right way.

BTW, the "shirt" thing in basic training is to prove you can be trained to follow orders, then follow them, and to see how you react when you fail, as you must at some points. The OP didn't seem to me to be excessively whining or making excuses, but then I fell asleep trying to read all the replies.
But I was NOT texting!


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## Aidey (Dec 15, 2011)

Veneficus said:


> I have held the hands of many students, both in the military and out.
> 
> Some learn slower than others, In my opinion it doesn't make them lesser or unworthy.
> 
> Based on your statements here, military members or veterens should be given no bonus points, preferential seating, or any other form of favoritism or perk for having served? (just to mak sure it applies across the board)



Bonus points, preferential seating or any other form of favoritism should end at the point a certifying/licensing test is applied. 

I'm ok with discounts on fees/tuition, credit for military training, consideration when apply for school, extensions on cert expiration deadlines while deployed etc. However, unless you have a documented disability no exceptions on certifying tests. There is a difference between giving someone extra help in return for their service, and undermining the whole system to cut someone a break when they can't hack it themselves.


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## 18G (Dec 16, 2011)

Personally, I felt the NREMT-P exam was MUCH easier than it was hyped up to be. It is an entry level exam with no real brain busters on there. Just basic principles and concepts that ensure effective and competent practice just starting off as a Medic. 

My feeling is it should not take more than two times to pass the exam. I can understand failing it once but once you gain the exposure to it and know how to further prepare, I don't see any reason not to pass it the second time around.

Again, it's not a hard exam and if it's taking four or five times to pass it than there is obviously a problem and deficiency with the individual's knowledge base. Yes I know some people need tests read to them, etc, etc... I''m assuming the OP does not have these issues since they weren't mentioned. 

I'm not sure what advice to give the OP at this point. Just read as much as you can EVERYDAY. Do not let a day go by that you do not read, study, or review something Paramedicine related. Make Google your best friend. Go beyond the basics in the text book and search Google for more indepth understanding. 

I used JBlearning test prep... best $40 spent. I really credit JB learning for my passing on first try.


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## usafmedic45 (Dec 16, 2011)

> Personally, I felt the NREMT-P exam was MUCH easier than it was hyped up to be. It is an entry level exam with no real brain busters on there. Just basic principles and concepts that ensure effective and competent practice just starting off as a Medic.



If anyone wants to try their hand at the respiratory therapy board exams: 
https://www.lxr.com/lxrweb/nbrc/StudyGuides/Online/2009RRTSTG/LogonPage1.ASP
https://prod1.lxr.com/webtest/Secure/login.aspx


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## Martyn (Dec 16, 2011)

74restore said:


> A slightly incompetent medic is better than no medic at all. And this is also assuming the the incompetent medic has a partner and other individuals around them.


 
But only so you can sue their a55 and get more money...lol


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## ramrod5022 (Dec 16, 2011)

*Did JB Learning help Anyone?*

I am taking the Paramedic exam for the first time on Dec 22nd. I have passed the practical exam so i'm halfway there. Did anyone use JB Learning as a study tool and find it to be effective? I am also using Brady, Barron's, Smart phone Apps, and most importantly reading my book. May the force be with me


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## mycrofft (Dec 16, 2011)

*Define slightly incompetent paramedic again?*

How about "B-level", or "stronger in some aras than others"?
Incompetent means failed something, and the skills are often a concatenation between AP/physiology/Dx and TX skills. Fail one and it drags you down overall, maybe fatally.
Give me two snappy EMT-B's over a C-grade or incompetent paramedic any day.


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## Remeber343 (Dec 17, 2011)

It appears we have run off yet another sad soul...  It's to bad really....   We really are nice people lol


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## mycrofft (Dec 17, 2011)

*Entry level exam needed.*

One of the folks responding to my texting thread says he spends the first two days teaching student how to study and other remedial material. 

The certification people and the licensure people need to make up their minds. If you are expecting college-level learning, then you need prereqs, and an entry exam would be a good idea. If you want this to be straddled between high school (or less) and community college, the lower the expectations for credentialing and licensure.


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## sweetpete (Jan 5, 2012)

ramrod5022 said:


> Did anyone use JB Learning as a study tool and find it to be effective?



JB Learning was a good site. The questions were pretty well written and it helped me maintain the habit of taking online tests, similar to the registry.

Either way, I ended up passing the first time with only 80 questions, so I'm pretty thrilled.


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## MackTheKnife (Jan 6, 2012)

In the 1980's, testing was all done on paper. Regardless of format, IMHO, evaluating what kind of a "test taker" you are might be a good starting point.


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## Medic76 (May 12, 2022)

Remeber343 said:


> Or he will end up seriously hurting or killing a patient due to incompetents.


Just like the top of class Paramedic that passed NR at 80 first try who cardioverted on the T wave not the R wave killing his patient. True story. So there’s that….


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## CCCSD (May 13, 2022)

10 year old necropost, with no point.
Classic.


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