# So I stopped at an accident off-duty...



## Shock (Sep 1, 2015)

I was on my way home from the store, and I was on a pretty busy 3-lane highway. Anyway, I rolled up to a "side-swipe" low-mechanism accident, blocking the middle lane. Driver of the vehicle that caused the accident was yelling at two females in their car, both whom are visibly shaken and scared. As I got out of my vehicle, he returned to his. Both parties denied injury, female was terrified of the male driver. Male driver was obviously aggressive, I had him stay in his vehicle. The female driver was so upset that she handed me the phone to talk to the dispatcher. She had a teenage patient with CP in the passenger seat, stating that she was jolted around and may be injured, but denied any pain or symptoms (visibly upset -- seatbelt in use, no deployment) Both occupants of this vehicle were very upset. I was unable to safely get to the teenager due to traffic in lane 1 and 3, so I just obtained a history. I talked to both drivers to keep things calm, and advised the dispatcher of 1 possible injury -- and to have PD step it up. Once an ambulance arrived, I gave report, and left.

I feel pretty useless for not physically assessing the patient, but I didn't feel safe stepping out into a lane that wasn't blocked, as I did not feel that she had any serious or emergent injury that would indicate me doing so until that lane could be blocked and directed by PD or fire.

It later turned out that the accident was an incident of road rage -- and the male driver attempted to force them off the road. I was the first to stop at this incident, I usually will avoid these unless the mechanism is high. I advised the "victims" that I would stay with them until the ambulance arrived. I pretty much just tried to cool them down and re-assure them that they were safe now...

Did I handle this ok?


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## TransportJockey (Sep 1, 2015)

You did more than most people, including me, would have bothered to do. Don't see an issue with what you did


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## teedubbyaw (Sep 1, 2015)

You got yourself involved in an aggravated assault incident, you exposed yourself to traffic and the dude who caused the crash. For what? To get a history that the people who called 911 are perfectly capable of giving on their own?

Good intentions, but take into consideration what you're bringing to the table next time. Very few times would I ever stop -- including rural accidents, motorcycle accidents, or CPR.


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## mgr22 (Sep 1, 2015)

You tried to help, and it sounds like you didn't make things worse. I think a willingness to engage is a good thing more often than not.


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## teedubbyaw (Sep 1, 2015)

mgr22 said:


> You tried to help, and it sounds like you didn't make things worse. I think a willingness to engage is a good thing more often than not.



Until it gets you killed.


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## Shock (Sep 1, 2015)

I agree with you, tee. I don't think stopping was really the best idea. This was the first MVA I stopped at off-duty, I usually roll by them. Given my car isn't equipped with anything other than napkins and a little CPR mask, I think I'm going to avoid this in the future. Though I bet I could make a mean ghetto-tourniquet if I needed one... I did mean well, and I was able to help calm both parties down.



teedubbyaw said:


> Until it gets you killed.


Those people needed help. Yes, it was risky. But sometimes in good heart you have to be willing to take those risks. If I was in their situation, I would feel much better knowing that someone who didn't need to came to my aide. Not playing hero here, but sometimes you have to have a heart.


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## jwk (Sep 1, 2015)

teedubbyaw said:


> You got yourself involved in an aggravated assault incident, you exposed yourself to traffic and the dude who caused the crash. For what? To get a history that the people who called 911 are perfectly capable of giving on their own?
> 
> Good intentions, but take into consideration what you're bringing to the table next time. Very few times would I ever stop -- including rural accidents, motorcycle accidents, or CPR.


Kudos to Shock - sorry - it would be just a little bit better world if more people gave a damn and didn't just pass by.


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## squirrel15 (Sep 1, 2015)

teedubbyaw said:


> You got yourself involved in an aggravated assault incident, you exposed yourself to traffic and the dude who caused the crash. For what? To get a history that the people who called 911 are perfectly capable of giving on their own?
> 
> Good intentions, but take into consideration what you're bringing to the table next time. Very few times would I ever stop -- including rural accidents, motorcycle accidents, or CPR.



I have to disagree with you here. Sometimes life isn't perfect and can be a bit dangerous, it would be a boring life if risk is never involved. Id say OP handled it well and assessed the situation well. They recognized stepping into other lanes of unblocked traffic was to risky and remained where they were, and their presence was enough to have the aggravated party remain in their vehicle. Also, they didn't overstep trying to play Ricky rescue, they did what they could without furthering damage or risk to anyone.

 I say well done by OP


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## teedubbyaw (Sep 1, 2015)

I understand the excitement of being new to EMS. You'll learn to leave work at work. You can give a damn by calling 911 if you feel the need to do so. Stopping on the highway and being in the way doesn't really benefit anyone.


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## Underoath87 (Sep 1, 2015)

I wouldn't have bothered with the interview, being that it was a car accident with uninjured patients.  But it was good that you were there to help secure the scene.


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## Shock (Sep 1, 2015)

teedubbyaw said:


> I understand the excitement of being new to EMS. You'll learn to leave work at work. You can give a damn by calling 911 if you feel the need to do so. Stopping on the highway and being in the way doesn't really benefit anyone.


I'm not particularly new to this, and it doesn't exactly excite me. The mechanism was low, I knew the chance of injury was slight. But you have to understand the circumstances that I rolled up to. You have to make a decision as a person of whether or not you would let a mother and her child in a car be bullied by someone and drive on by. EMS provider or not, there were no injuries. When help arrived, he backed down. Suddenly he wasn't so tough anymore.


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## Tigger (Sep 1, 2015)

If the cars were drivable I think I'd ask them to move out of traffic... Would suck to have a legit accident occur because two people involved in traffic stayed in the middle lane. Then do whatever you want, I dislike being in traffic.


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## teedubbyaw (Sep 1, 2015)

The being new comment was directed to you personally. 

The funny thing about incidents like this is there may always be another side to the story, like innocent mom really isn't so innocent after a hit and run, and that 'bully' is a good samaritan trying to stop her. Slight exaggeration, but you get the point. Involving yourself in someone else's personal affairs, although may have good intentions, more often ends up with you getting the short end of the stick.


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## Shock (Sep 1, 2015)

I'm aware of the personal jab, though mislead. I treated everyone on-scene neutrally. Both parties were asked to remain in their cars, and not move them (due to accusations, this was a crime scene until proven otherwise in my eyes) I assessed everyone for injury with no bias to what happened. I re-assured the mother that I would stay with her until police arrived, and the assailant that I was only there to make sure no-body was hurt. The location of the incident sparked numerous 911 calls to police from witnesses. That's their job, not mine. I am not a police officer, it is not my job to deal with that. I left my opinion out of it.


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## teedubbyaw (Sep 1, 2015)

It's not your job to deal with any of it while off duty...

But hey, you did what  you thought was right and nothing was wrong with that. All I'm saying is be careful in the future. Good intentions these days tend to screw people over.


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## EMTinCT (Sep 2, 2015)

I stopped at an accident with two entrapments and severe injuries that I chanced upon while driving in my small town in my rural area. Bystanders were already dialing 911 to report it. About a minute into helping one of the patients my pager went off summoning my FD to the scene. I guess you can say my FD got there before the call was even made making it the fastest response time ever. We ended up calling for two helicopters and three additional FDs to help with the entrapment. The helios had time to land and their crews come to the scene from 5 miles away at the LZ. 

Stopping at the scene of an accident really depends on many factors. In rural areas with lengthy response times (such as mine) I would hope an off-duty or on-call FF or EMT would stop for me. If nothing else to ensure that help is coming and I wouldn't be so alone. If it was the suburbs or urban area with quick response times and the vehicles were not on fire I would call 911 and report it. There isn't one blanket rule to responding while off-duty. 

Let's try to use our hearts as often as we use our heads.


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## SeeNoMore (Sep 2, 2015)

I think it's reasonable (not at all mandatory) to stop at a major car accident, cardiac arrest, etc. We all know that there is often little we can do other than call 911 and CPR/First Aid but depending on the situation , having a calm person there used to dealing with stressful situations can be a good thing. 

When I was a new EMT I stopped every once in a while. Now it's extremely rare.


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## reaper (Sep 2, 2015)

Shock said:


> I'm aware of the personal jab, though mislead. I treated everyone on-scene neutrally. Both parties were asked to remain in their cars, and not move them (due to accusations, this was a crime scene until proven otherwise in my eyes) I assessed everyone for injury with no bias to what happened. I re-assured the mother that I would stay with her until police arrived, and the assailant that I was only there to make sure no-body was hurt. The location of the incident sparked numerous 911 calls to police from witnesses. That's their job, not mine. I am not a police officer, it is not my job to deal with that. I left my opinion out of it.


You handled it exactly as you should Have. It is up to you, if you want to stop and help. No one else is there at that scene. You did not act as a rickey rescue. You handle the scene just fine.

Do not listen to those that forgot what helping people is all about. Always use your head and do what you think is right.


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## mgr22 (Sep 2, 2015)

I'm trying not to overthink this:
You come upon a scene with possible injuries. You didn't plan it that way -- it just happened.
Nobody else is helping -- no EMS, no PD, no FD.
You have some training that makes it a little more likely that you can help. -- probably not, but maybe.
If you stop, you're going to suffer inconvenience and, yes, possibly death -- sort of like when you plan a trip involving air travel.
You can keep right on driving because you don't have to stop.
Or you can stop.
If it's my family at that scene, I really hope you stop.


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## Seirende (Sep 2, 2015)

I think the big thing is that you were able to separate the parties. If that had been me and my little sister against a verbally violent man, it would make a BIG difference to me that someone stopped. Obviously it means personal risk, but if you're off duty I'm not judging as long as you're smart about it. The fact that you are employed as an EMT is probably irrelevant for the most part, other than mad scene control skills. But as a human being I'd say you did good.


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## Tigger (Sep 2, 2015)

mgr22 said:


> I
> If you stop, you're going to suffer inconvenience and, yes, possibly death -- sort of like when you plan a trip involving air travel.


Standing in traffic with no vest or other emergency vehicles certainly holds the same risk as commercial air travel...


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## Carlos Danger (Sep 2, 2015)

First time I ever stopped at an accident, I'd been a paramedic for a couple years already. I only stopped because it was a pretty bad looking wreck and there was no one there yet. Just wanted to see if I could help somehow. I didn't realize it until I walked up, but the scene was already swarmed by off-duty Rickey Rescues who had "taken control of the scene" and wouldn't let anyone else near that patients. Last time I ever stopped.

Until about 10 years later, when I was driving down I-77 in Virginia and saw a pickup from the oncoming lanes careen across the median, go airborne, roll a couple times, and come to rest on it's roof. It was weird because for years I'd responded to hundreds of scenes that looked just like it, but had never actually witnessed anything more serious than a fender bender. I pulled well off the highway maybe 50 meters away, and in spite of getting to it no more than probably 90 seconds after it happened, it was, again, already swarmed by Rickey Rescues. It's like they just appear out of thin air. Anyway, this time they were just standing outside the truck pointing through the passenger side door at the driver, who appeared unresponsive and was hanging upside down from his seatbelt with his head against the roof of the truck, and his neck flexed hard with his chin crammed into his chest. He didn't look like he was breathing. I asked if anyone had a knife on them, and one of the whackers did. I crawled through the open passenger side door, and the guy wasn't breathing. I did my best to position him in a way it looked like he would fall into a position where I could pull him out rather than in a contorted mess that would trap us both, and I cut the seat belt. It worked, thankfully. He fell the right way and I pulled him out and opened his airway, and he was now breathing just fine. He was completely unresponsive and was a big fat guy and I could only maintain his airway by putting him on his side, a la "recovery position". It seemed like a long time until the engine arrived (was probably 5 min), and in that time I was interrogated by a dialysis nurse about my qualifications to be "in charge of" this patient, and why didn't I have him on his back, holding his head still? Fire arrived and seemed very apprehensive about taking a patient who was unresponsive to pain and had airway compromise, just had the deer in the headlights, I-don't-know-what-to-do look that new EMT's all have. The firefighter didn't seem as though he wanted to take over, so I just kept maintaining, figuring the ambulance would be there momentarily. Until a cop told me to get out of the way so the firefighters could do their job. I made the firefighter take the guy's head and showed him how I was maintaining the airway, and walked away. As I drove past a minute later, they already had him supine on a backboard.

The experts seem to come out of the woodwork for MVC's, so I would not stop again unless I was in a real rural area where there was no other help around and it looked like EMS might take a while.


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## reaper (Sep 2, 2015)

So that man is breathing because you stopped. Where is the bad thing? You will always have idiots on any scene, even while working. No reason to take things personally. Just do what needs to be done and then walk away.


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## DesertMedic66 (Sep 2, 2015)

Fender binders or any TC/MVC with minor to moderate damage I will not stop (I may call 911 depending on the accident, not gonna call 911 for a fender binder). A car with serious damage I will call 911 and may stop depending on several factors (anyone on scene, is it safe, can I pull to a safe spot, etc).

Honestly for the TC that was described I would have kept on driving by. 2 vehicles with very minor damage still in moving lanes of traffic is a recipe for disaster.


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## Carlos Danger (Sep 2, 2015)

reaper said:


> So that man is breathing because you stopped. Where is the bad thing? You will always have idiots on any scene, even while working. No reason to take things personally. *Just do what needs to be done and then walk away.*



That's the point. There's usually nothing to be done. When there is, someone else is almost always eagerly doing it already. And if they aren't doing it, there's a good chance they'll find a way to make it hard for you to do it. At least that's been my experience.


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## m3dic (Sep 2, 2015)

So from a UK perspective.  

I don't go looking for incidents to stop at and I wouldn't call myself a wacker or Ricky. 

But I live up to my nick name of sh*t magnet I find stuff both on and off duty. My car carries all the same kit I would expect to get at work (mainly because I run my own company providing medical/ambulance cover to events) it has lights etc so it is safer for me to stop.  

That said I have stopped at stuff when in a normal car with minimal kit. If all I can do is maintain an airways or keep someone calm then that is better than not. 

I am not just talking MVC's I am talking side if the road in a quiet street etc. 

It's also worth noting that over here clinicians with a registration (emt's, first responders etc are not registered here) have a legal obligation to stop unless they have a valid reason not to. 

I think we should all remember why we do this job... yes our safety at a scene us priority number 1 but let's not be risk adverse about the whole thing....


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## ViolynEMT (Sep 2, 2015)

EMTinCT said:


> Stopping at the scene of an accident really depends on many factors. In rural areas with lengthy response times (such as mine) I would hope an off-duty or on-call FF or EMT would stop for me. If nothing else to ensure that help is coming and I wouldn't be so alone. If it was the suburbs or urban area with quick response times and the vehicles were not on fire I would call 911 and report it. There isn't one blanket rule to responding while off-duty.
> 
> Let's try to use our hearts as often as we use our heads.




Well said.


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## mgr22 (Sep 3, 2015)

Tigger said:


> Standing in traffic with no vest or other emergency vehicles certainly holds the same risk as commercial air travel...


Only if you fly without a vest


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## SunshineCamo (Sep 3, 2015)

If I can do so safely, I often stop for wrecks or heck even people broke down on the side of the road. Most of the time they don't need any help but often enough I find people with a dead cell phone, no phone etc. Before I get out of my car I do a quick risk assessment, and there's been times I've decided the smart play is to just call 911 from where I am. I keep an issued IFAK in my car but unless I know for a fact they need it, which I've only used once. With just a little care the risk is minimal.


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## Honeybadger (Sep 5, 2015)

I've called in and stepped in on quite a few incidents of rolling domestic violence. Not because I have any special training, but because it's the decent thing to do. There's nothing wrong with stopping to make sure everyone's okay and if necessary, calling 911. Even if you don't stop, calling 911 isn't anywhere nearly as scary and risky as people think it is. Best case, you stopped a crime or a drunk driver, worst case you wasted a cop's time and if my former police partner is any word to go by, I'm sure he'd rather be investigating DUI's and DV's than talking to the homeless guy that's yelling at cats again.


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## StCEMT (Sep 5, 2015)

One thing I remember from a class I took a few years ago is that when something bad happens, people tend to assume "someone else" will do something about it and that only gets worse the more people are around. Pretty much everything I see is someone on the side of the road midway through changing a tire or something, obviously doing fine with the situation. But there are so many things that just showing that little effort can make a difference to someone, even if it turns out that what you do is incredibly small. 

But if there is something I can do to help make someone's situation or day a little better, why should I leave it to someone else to MAYBE do it if I know I can do it? Might be dangerous to get involved in an accident, but I hope someone would do that for my little sisters if I couldn't, so I'd still do it for someone else. Might also be more dangerous to get involved in a potentially violent situation like the one above, but again I hope someone would for my little sisters....I carry for a reason. Or just something as simple as giving a homeless person a fresh meal. Sure someone else might, but I can. But then again, all my plans in life are based on my belief that if it really comes down to it, helping someone else is more important than helping myself, regardless of what that means for me or the situation it puts me in. Too many people don't care or are just complacent in things being someone else's problem....not a trait that I want to be known to have.


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## kaisardog (Sep 27, 2015)

i  was just  an off duty passerby  when i  saw  the car ahead  of  me  hit a  6  year  old  girl,  then  leave  the  scene. i stopped,  called  911 , kept  the  child  from  moving  while  we  waited  for  ALS. facial  fx,  suspected  c-spine, broken  leg.  state  police  were  very  glad  i  was  there  to  give a  description  of  the fleeing  vehicle.

and  i'd  do  that  again.


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