# Caught on camera: Firefighter draws gun on driver at highway scene in North Carolina



## DrParasite (Jun 15, 2021)

Not something I would recommend anyone doing; the only thing I can think of is she tried to hit him with her car, or started driving towards him when they had the road shut down after he told her multiple times to stop.  I don't see this ending well for the FF, but I would like to hear his side of the story, before he gets convicted in the court of social media and public opinion​








						Caught on camera: Firefighter draws gun on driver at highway scene in North Carolina - Statter911
					

Not a lot known about Saturday confrontation in Columbus County



					www.statter911.com
				











						Sheriff’s Office investigating woman’s claims that firefighter pulled a gun on her
					

A woman says she captured a video of a firefighter with the Acme-Delco-Riegelwood Fire Rescue pointing a gun at her.




					www.wect.com
				



and for a legal opinion on this topic:








						Armed Firefighters - The Debate Continues... Again - Fire Law Blog
					

Today’s Burning Question: In our city we have the luxury of a police force nearby, however, just like us they are increasingly busy. Many times we wait a significant amount of time for an officer to arrive on a scene that may or may not be violent but the potential is there, so we stage. ...




					www.firelawblog.com
				



https://www.firehouse.com/operations-training/article/21112973/fire-law-should-firefighters-be-armed


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## ffemt8978 (Jun 15, 2021)

Yeah, I'd say there is more to this story than we've been told so far.


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## DrParasite (Jun 15, 2021)

as per https://www.wral.com/woman-says-nc-firefighter-pulled-gun-on-her-at-crash-site/19725931/


> Brianna Grotzinger, who witnessed the encounter, said DeLeon drove full-speed at the crash site and tried to get around the firetruck by driving onto the highway median. She said she then saw the firefighter with gun drawn.
> 
> "He came around the firetruck, [and] he then pointed his gun out because he thought he was about to get hit by this car," Grotzinger said Monday. "He told her to turn her vehicle off and stay put until the state trooper got there."


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## ffemt8978 (Jun 15, 2021)

Who could have guessed there was more to the story than the "victim" claimed?

Then again, I'd like to see the full dashcam video of her driving up to the scene, because people's definition of "full speed" varies widely.  The still frame does appear to show her driving on the median to get around the crash site, lending credence to the witness narrative.


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## FiremanMike (Jun 15, 2021)

He came around the fire truck then drew?  As in, he put himself into danger?

I’d say any discussion of FF/emt on duty concealed carry just got taken back about 5 years..


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## ffemt8978 (Jun 15, 2021)

FiremanMike said:


> He came around the fire truck then drew?  As in, he put himself into danger?
> 
> I’d say any discussion of FF/emt on duty concealed carry just got taken back about 5 years..


Wouldn't that depend on if he came around the corner of the truck specifically to intervene with his firearm as opposed to walking around the corner of the truck, and drawing as he sees a car heading for him?

Edit: haven't watched the video yet


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## FiremanMike (Jun 15, 2021)

ffemt8978 said:


> Wouldn't that depend on if he came around the corner of the truck specifically to intervene with his firearm as opposed to walking around the corner of the truck, and drawing as he sees a car heading for him?
> 
> Edit: haven't watched the video yet


IMHO - the car is already moving in that direction, you coming around the corner of the fire truck to intervene makes you just as responsible for putting yourself in danger as her. Let her hit the truck, median, or even nothing, and deal with it later.

Respectfully, you can’t make a conscious decision to intentionally place yourself in a “deadly force” scenario and then utilize deadly force to mitigate it.

edited to add - I’m happy to consider new information as it becomes available on this case..


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## ffemt8978 (Jun 15, 2021)

FiremanMike said:


> IMHO - the car is already moving in that direction, you coming around the corner of the fire truck to intervene makes you just as responsible for putting yourself in danger as her. Let her hit the truck, median, or even nothing, and deal with it later.
> 
> Respectfully, you can’t make a conscious decision to intentionally place yourself in a “deadly force” scenario and then utilize deadly force to mitigate it.
> 
> edited to add - I’m happy to consider new information as it becomes available on this case..


Not disagreeing with you...just wondering if he knew the car was there when going around the truck.  If he intentionally put himself in that situation, that's different then walking around the truck unaware to find a car heading for you.


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## FiremanMike (Jun 15, 2021)

ffemt8978 said:


> Not disagreeing with you...just wondering if he knew the car was there when going around the truck.  If he intentionally put himself in that situation, that's different then walking around the truck unaware to find a car heading for you.


I’m fine going down that rabbit hole, but I’ll off this in a counter - you’re coming around the fire truck and see la car is barreling towards you, do you: 

A. Pull a gun and draw down on the driver 
B. Step back behind the fire truck


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## CCCSD (Jun 15, 2021)

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


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## GMCmedic (Jun 15, 2021)

Ummmmmmm. Wow?


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## CCCSD (Jun 15, 2021)

Good thing all those FF are packing. Obviously better trained than the police…


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## chrls (Jun 15, 2021)

Looks like an over zealous volunteer. Guns like his don’t stop cars like hers with any resemblance of reliability.


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## Tigger (Jun 16, 2021)

Let the driver make a dumb choice and drive through the median. Was he really planning to shoot her over this?


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## DrParasite (Jun 16, 2021)

CCCSD said:


> Good thing all those FF are packing. Obviously better trained than the police…


well, it is rural NC, and there were no cops at the scene of the crash when this interaction occurred (which is more common than you would probably believe)


FiremanMike said:


> Respectfully, you can’t make a conscious decision to intentionally place yourself in a “deadly force” scenario and then utilize deadly force to mitigate it.





ffemt8978 said:


> Not disagreeing with you...just wondering if he knew the car was there when going around the truck.  If he intentionally put himself in that situation, that's different then walking around the truck unaware to find a car heading for you.


I'm pretty sure he didn't know the driver was going to go on the median, go around the fire trucks that had completely shut down the road, and he felt that his life was in danger due to her actions.  no saying he was right to draw down on her.  And the video only starts after he has the gun aimed at her, we don't know what she or he did beforehand.


Tigger said:


> Let the driver make a dumb choice and drive through the median. Was he really planning to shoot her over this?


I mean, if she drives on the median to get around the truck, gets back on the road and runs over 3 firefighters, killing them.... are you still ok with her "dumb choice"?  And I don't think he was planning to shoot her, only to detain her until highway patrol arrived (as per his words on the video, and I am not saying he was right to do that either)


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## Tigger (Jun 16, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> well, it is rural NC, and there were no cops at the scene of the crash when this interaction occurred (which is more common than you would probably believe)
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure he didn't know the driver was going to go on the median, go around the fire trucks that had completely shut down the road, and he felt that his life was in danger due to her actions.  no saying he was right to draw down on her.  And the video only starts after he has the gun aimed at her, we don't know what she or he did beforehand.
> ...


I don’t think you get to point a gun at someone to detain them as a firefighter but what do I know. This person is not in the right, but the situation was not handled appropriately, and it wouldn’t have been appropriate for a cop to have done the same thing either.


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## DrParasite (Jun 16, 2021)

Tigger said:


> I don’t think you get to point a gun at someone to detain them as a firefighter but what do I know.


I'm inclined to agree with you and stated as such.


Tigger said:


> This person is not in the right, but the situation was not ha died appropriately,


I'm inclined to agree with you


Tigger said:


> and it wouldn’t have been appropriate for a cop to have done the same thing either.


I don't know about that... I know quite a few youtube videos that show cops drawing firearms at people who drive towards them and refuse to stop.  as well as draw firearms during felony traffic stops.  and am pretty sure a cop can draw a firearm during an attempt to detain someone, especially when that person is armed with a deadly weapon (in this case a car), but I could be wrong and will differ to those with law enforcement experience.


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## CCCSD (Jun 16, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> well, it is rural NC, and there were no cops at the scene of the crash when this interaction occurred (which is more common than you would probably believe)
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure he didn't know the driver was going to go on the median, go around the fire trucks that had completely shut down the road, and he felt that his life was in danger due to her actions.  no saying he was right to draw down on her.  And the video only starts after he has the gun aimed at her, we don't know what she or he did beforehand.
> ...


No. There is no justification for Lethal Force. Even if she did run over someone, UNLESS it was a deliberate act of murder. It’s just a traffic issue. I hope NC law allows her to press charges and/or sue the department.


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## chrls (Jun 16, 2021)

Policy for my department is similar to what @Tigger mentioned. We can't put ourselves in harms way in an attempt to justify deadly force. There's more to it than one line but that's the main idea. Overall our policy is usually pretty restrictive and based on relevant case law.

I have only worked for one LE agency so I can't definitively speak for others. As a guess though I can't see many departments giving their officers the ability to get into more shootings if they wanted to.


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## DrParasite (Jun 16, 2021)

CCCSD said:


> No. There is no justification for Lethal Force. Even if she did run over someone, UNLESS it was a deliberate act of murder. It’s just a traffic issue. I hope NC law allows her to press charges and/or sue the department.


based on what happened in https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/crime/article252028573.html it would appear that you would be incorrect, at least as per the district attorney in this county in NC.

And I agree, it's better to get out of the way vs threatening lethal force.  I don't agree with what was done in this situation.


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## CCCSD (Jun 16, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> based on what happened in https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/crime/article252028573.html it would appear that you would be incorrect, at least as per the district attorney in this county in NC.
> 
> And I agree, it's better to get out of the way vs threatening lethal force.  I don't agree with what was done in this situation.


Completely different situation.
Don’t try to bend things to support your stance.
She was a traffic violator.
But let’s just go ahead and arm FF/EMS and let them start killing people. Then this crap will finally be over.


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## chrls (Jun 16, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> based on what happened in https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/crime/article252028573.html it would appear that you would be incorrect, at least as per the district attorney in this county in NC.
> 
> And I agree, it's better to get out of the way vs threatening lethal force.  I don't agree with what was done in this situation.



As a Monday morning quarterback, these guys messed up. The guy who *almost* gets run over gets out of the way and doesn't raise his rifle to shoot. Good on him. You can even see in his shadow he doesn't join in with the others after he moves. I would be worried about the future if I was whoever was off screen still shooting when nobody was in front of the car still.

But who knows when he was hit in the head. Was it when he was trying to drive around the deputy in front of his car or was it as he was driving away still getting shot at?


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## DrParasite (Jun 16, 2021)

CCCSD said:


> Completely different situation.
> Don’t try to bend things to support your stance.
> She was a traffic violator.
> But let’s just go ahead and arm FF/EMS and let them start killing people. Then this crap will finally be over.


talk about bending things to support your stance... no armed FF (and there are likely more than you would like to believe) have killed people when their lives have not been threatened.  in fact, with all the CCW people in the US, you would think the bodies would be lining the streets with all the guns we have.  Oh, and in case you forgot, arming EMTs was previous discussed on these forums, and this is what I said then, and it still applied today:


> Georgia, Kansas, Ohio, and New York passed legislation in 2017 allowing EMTs and paramedics to carry on the job. In 2019, West Virginia's legislation did the same thing. and Alabama, California, Kansas, Kentucky, Mississippi, Minnesota, Texas, and Wisconsin were considering it. Have there been any reports of EMS personnel shooting people? any accidental discharges? It's been 3 years. Everyone is worried about all the bad things happening... have they actually happened?
> 
> 3 years with no issues, and at least one instance of an armed paramedic saving the life of him and his partner... And I bet that paramedic and his partner's families were very grateful that the paramedic was armed; it likely prevented a double LODD.


She is absolutely a traffic violator, and lethal force was threatened, not used, against her.  Not saying he was right, but maybe you should tone down the fear-mongering and hyperbole, because the facts don't support any of what you are saying.


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## SandpitMedic (Jun 16, 2021)

What an idiot. Complete clown shoes.


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## Tigger (Jun 16, 2021)

We could really what if this to death. Or we could look at this for what it is. Bad behavior from someone representing our profession.


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## FiremanMike (Jun 16, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> I'm pretty sure he didn't know the driver was going to go on the median, go around the fire trucks that had completely shut down the road, and he felt that his life was in danger due to her actions.  no saying he was right to draw down on her.  And the video only starts after he has the gun aimed at her, we don't know what she or he did beforehand.
> 
> I mean, if she drives on the median to get around the truck, gets back on the road and runs over 3 firefighters, killing them.... are you still ok with her "dumb choice"? * And I don't think he was planning to shoot her, only to detain her until highway patrol arrived* (as per his words on the video, and I am not saying he was right to do that either)



We don't have video of what happened beforehand, that's correct, but at the end of the day the prudent move for coming around the fire truck and seeing someone driving at you is to step back where you came from and let her hit the truck.

As to the bolded, there are two things wrong with it:
1.  It's not appropriate escalation of force to go directly to lethal force in this situation, and it isn't appropriate to draw and point a weapon when deadly force isn't immediately justified (I'll address the nuances of felony stops and felony fleeing in a minute)
2.  Only police officers in their own jurisdiction have the legal right to detain anyone for misdemeanor crimes, period.  A firefighter CANNOT detain someone for a traffic violation.



DrParasite said:


> I don't know about that... I know quite a few youtube videos that show cops drawing firearms at people who drive towards them and refuse to stop.  as well as draw firearms during felony traffic stops.  and am pretty sure a cop can draw a firearm during an attempt to detain someone, especially when that person is armed with a deadly weapon (in this case a car), but I could be wrong and will differ to those with law enforcement experience.


Cops drawing their firearms on cars driving towards them are almost always scenarios where the driver was already detained and then turning their vehicle towards the officer, turning a traffic violation into felony fleeing and felonious assault.  The officer can generally deduce that the driver is purposely driving towards them with the intent of causing harm to the cop.  The woman here was being an impatient *******, but clearly wasn't intentionally driving towards the firefighters in an attempt to hit them, as evidenced by the fact that they walked themselves into the path of the vehicle.

You are correct that a firearm can be drawn to affect the detention of someone with a deadly weapon, but again the officer must be able to articulate that there is intent to use the deadly weapon to cause serious bodily harm to the officer or a bystander.  If I come up on someone minding their own business with a holstered weapon, I can't screw my gun to his ear and order him down.  A woman driving into the grass on the median may show disregard, but does not demonstrate an intent to harm others.


DrParasite said:


> talk about bending things to support your stance... no armed FF (and there are likely more than you would like to believe) have killed people when their lives have not been threatened.  in fact, with all the CCW people in the US, you would think the bodies would be lining the streets with all the guns we have.  Oh, and in case you forgot, arming EMTs was previous discussed on these forums, and this is what I said then, and it still applied today:
> 
> She is absolutely a traffic violator, and lethal force was threatened, not used, against her.  Not saying he was right, but maybe you should tone down the fear-mongering and hyperbole, because the facts don't support any of what you are saying.


Lethal force was threatened in a non lethal force scenario, which is a prime example of it is inappropriate to consider arming EMTs in their current level of training.  This guy was in *WAY *over his head and was *COMPLETELY* wrong.  He made several critical errors that can easily be picked apart by even the most inexperienced police officer.

Had this guy actually shot her, he would have likely faced severe criminal charges, not to mention the fact that he just killed someone for driving around his crash scene.


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## DrParasite (Jun 17, 2021)

FiremanMike said:


> Lethal force was threatened in a non lethal force scenario, which is a prime example of it is inappropriate to consider arming EMTs in their current level of training.  This guy was in *WAY *over his head and was *COMPLETELY* wrong.  He made several critical errors that can easily be picked apart by even the most inexperienced police officer.
> 
> Had this guy actually shot her, he would have likely faced severe criminal charges, not to mention the fact that he just killed someone for driving around his crash scene.


I *NEVER *said he was correct in his actions.  *NOT ONCE.  *I am not defending his actions, nor do I think firearms should be used in this manner.  And I do agree that it was likely an unlawful detainment (never said otherwise).  Had I been in his position, I would not have drawn and aimed a firearm at her.

Had he actually shot her, I would have supported him being criminally charged.  I might be able to articulate a defense, but likely not one that would result in an acquittal.

BTW, this is not an example of a department that arms their EMTs; this is an example of an (assumingly) lawful gun owner who carries 24/7, who happened to have a weapon on him when he went to the car accident scene and decided to draw it for reasons that we can only speculate to.  We also don't know what happened before the video started, so she might have gotten back on the road and then hit the FFs who were working at the scene.  We don't know, because we only have the facts that have been provided (the video and what witnesses report).


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## Tigger (Jun 18, 2021)

FiremanMike said:


> Had this guy actually shot her, he would have likely faced severe criminal charges, not to mention the fact that he just killed someone for driving around his crash scene.


This is really the issue here for me. So many people on the FB and other outlets are all "he was well with in his rights to shoot her to protect his crew." Really, are we so callous that we think taking someone's life in such a situation is an acceptable option?


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## CCCSD (Jun 18, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> talk about bending things to support your stance... no armed FF (and there are likely more than you would like to believe) have killed people when their lives have not been threatened.  in fact, with all the CCW people in the US, you would think the bodies would be lining the streets with all the guns we have.  Oh, and in case you forgot, arming EMTs was previous discussed on these forums, and this is what I said then, and it still applied today:
> 
> She is absolutely a traffic violator, and lethal force was threatened, not used, against her.  Not saying he was right, but maybe you should tone down the fear-mongering and hyperbole, because the facts don't support any of what you are saying.


Your inability to see the facts are amusing.. You don’t know a thing about CCW or training, yet you pontificate from your throne of “I’m right every time I post on anything”. So..tell me how many years you have on as a cop? What academies have you attended? How many hours of Advanced Officer Training do you have?

It is stupid to arm people who have no need. You and everyone else can walk away, open the door, stage. You don’t have to go in. Ever. So spare me the heroic BS.


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## Tigger (Jun 18, 2021)

The result, FF gets an assault charge, she gets a traffic citation. 









						Firefighter charged for pointing gun at woman during accident in Columbus Co. - WWAYTV3
					

The Columbus County Sheriff's Office has charged a firefighter for pointing a gun at a woman during a traffic accident.




					www.wwaytv3.com


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## Fezman92 (Jun 18, 2021)

Talk about taking taticool way too seriously.


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## DrParasite (Jun 19, 2021)

CCCSD said:


> It is stupid to arm people who have no need. You and everyone else can walk away, open the door, stage. You don’t have to go in. Ever. So spare me the heroic BS.


Your issue is with the second amendment of the constitution… not me.

and if you think all unsafe scenes can be avoided simply by staging… well, maybe it’s time for you to walk away


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## medichopeful (Jun 19, 2021)

When I'm off-duty, I concealed carry.  I'm all for concealed carry, and have no issue with people doing it.  On-duty as a paramedic, there's no way that I would want to concealed carry.  The risk is too high, it now adds a weapon to every encounter, and it also adds in concern for close-quarters firearm handling, retention, collateral damage, training issues, legal issues, patient trust issues, and a sense of false security.  We're medical providers, not police officers.  Police officers have way more training and education regarding the use of firearms than your average firearm owner, and look at what is happening almost daily in this country: they're getting involved in shootings, some justified, some not.  Can you imagine what would happen if EMS and FD started carrying on a large scale, some of whom can barely pass an EMT course?  Give them a gun, and stupid stuff will happen.  This case is a perfect example.

In regards to this case specifically, I have a few concerns:
1) It is pretty obvious to me that the driver was being an idiot, and was trying to get around the firetruck.  Not cool, she should get some tickets (it looks like she did)
2) From all of the information I've seen, including pictures of the scene, nobody was at risk of imminent harm.  Deadly force requires the risk of imminent harm.  Pointing a gun at someone, even without using it, is a type of deadly force
3) If he truly just stepped out from behind the firetruck, and he was almost hit by her, how did he have time to draw his weapon and point it at her without getting hit?  The firetruck clearly isn't that far away from where he is standing.  On the flip side, if he wanted to try to stop her, what idiot in their right mind would step in front of a moving car and point a gun at someone?  The decision making process here is absolutely idiotic pretty much any way you look at it

The decision making from everyone in this video is pretty damn questionable.  Even more so for the firefighter, cause he actively escalated the situation to a deadly force encounter without using his brain at all.  Get a license plate, call the cops, and call it a day.

(Disclaimer: I'm not working as a ground medic anymore, but my stance was the same then and hasn't changed).


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## medichopeful (Jun 19, 2021)

FiremanMike said:


> Lethal force was threatened in a non lethal force scenario, which is a prime example of it is inappropriate to consider arming EMTs in their current level of training.  This guy was in *WAY *over his head and was *COMPLETELY* wrong.  He made several critical errors that can easily be picked apart by even the most inexperienced police officer.


^This, 100%

He is also really lucky that he didn't get slapped with a charge of false-imprisonment, or whatever it is that NC calls it.


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## DrParasite (Jun 20, 2021)

medichopeful said:


> When I'm off-duty, I concealed carry.  I'm all for concealed carry, and have no issue with people doing it.  On-duty as a paramedic, there's no way that I would want to concealed carry.  The risk is too high, it now adds a weapon to every encounter, and it also adds in concern for close-quarters firearm handling, retention, collateral damage, training issues, legal issues, patient trust issues, and a sense of false security.


Just so I understand.... you bring a weapon to every encounter when you are off duty, when you are in close quarters (such as when you are driving your car).  you are all for it, and have no issues with people doing it, but those risks you lists don't apply when you are not on the ambulance?


medichopeful said:


> We're medical providers, not police officers.  Police officers have way more training and education regarding the use of firearms than your average firearm owner, and look at what is happening almost daily in this country: they're getting involved in shootings, some justified, some not.  Can you imagine what would happen if EMS and FD started carrying on a large scale, some of whom can barely pass an EMT course?  Give them a gun, and stupid stuff will happen.  This case is a perfect example.


no one is saying every EMT and firefighter should be carrying firearms.  no one is advocating for "here is your EMT card, here is your stethoscope, here is your glock."  No one is saying we should be doing the job of the police.  This case might be an example of an inappropriate drawing on a weapon, but just because a small minority does something stupid doesn't mean we should punish everyone (otherwise, we would take away all firearms from cops, because a few idiots have done stupid things, which, I hope we can all agree, is a foolish idea).

I'm curious: you have a gun, how much stupid stuff have you done with it?  so why would most people be any different than you?


medichopeful said:


> The decision making from everyone in this video is pretty damn questionable.  Even more so for the firefighter, cause he actively escalated the situation to a deadly force encounter without using his brain at all.  Get a license plate, call the cops, and call it a day.


No one is disagreeing with you.  He did something wrong, and now he will deal with whatever consequences follow.... which is how it works for everyone, both on duty and off.


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## DesertMedic66 (Jun 20, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> Just so I understand.... you bring a weapon to every encounter when you are off duty, when you are in close quarters (such as when you are driving your car).  you are all for it, and have no issues with people doing it, but those risks you lists don't apply when you are not on the ambulance?
> 
> no one is saying every EMT and firefighter should be carrying firearms.  no one is advocating for "here is your EMT card, here is your stethoscope, here is your glock."  No one is saying we should be doing the job of the police.  This case might be an example of an inappropriate drawing on a weapon, but just because a small minority does something stupid doesn't mean we should punish everyone (otherwise, we would take away all firearms from cops, because a few idiots have done stupid things, which, I hope we can all agree, is a foolish idea).
> 
> ...


To play devils advocate, when I am off duty I am never inside a confined space such as a car with someone I don’t know. I’m also not routinely going into gun free zones while I am off duty such as school zones, hospitals, jails, prisons, court houses, and other federal buildings..


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## FiremanMike (Jun 20, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> Your issue is with the second amendment of the constitution… not me.
> 
> and if you think all unsafe scenes can be avoided simply by staging… well, maybe it’s time for you to walk away


I work in an urban area with a high per capita violent crime rate.  I’ve seen my share of shootings, stabbings, and assaults.  I’ve been on hot scenes.  I’ve been in scenes when shots have been fired.  I’ve been on scenes when you can still smell gunpowder in the air.  I’ve been in scenes were all of a sudden all the cops had their guns out, and I’ve wrestled violent people to the ground.

The number of times that I wished I had a gun on me = 0


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## medichopeful (Jun 20, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> Just so I understand.... you bring a weapon to every encounter when you are off duty, when you are in close quarters (such as when you are driving your car).  you are all for it, and have no issues with people doing it, but those risks you lists don't apply when you are not on the ambulance?


Of course there are situations where I'm off duty where some of the same situations apply.  However, off-duty I have no duty to respond, don't deal with sick people who may be altered, don't stop on the side of the highway, don't go into random houses, and don't interact with random people in confined spaces for any length of time and if for some reason I'm uncomfortable, or the person I'm talking to starts acting strange, I can just leave. The situations I would find myself in-duty and off-duty are completely different and if they're not, I made some pretty stupid mistakes to get there.


DrParasite said:


> no one is saying every EMT and firefighter should be carrying firearms.  no one is advocating for "here is your EMT card, here is your stethoscope, here is your glock."  No one is saying we should be doing the job of the police.  This case might be an example of an inappropriate drawing on a weapon, but just because a small minority does something stupid doesn't mean we should punish everyone (otherwise, we would take away all firearms from cops, because a few idiots have done stupid things, which, I hope we can all agree, is a foolish idea).


I'm not saying that either.  What I am saying is that if start allowing EMS to carry firearms, people are going to make stupid decisions, as is demonstrated by this situation.  We have people in this field who get irrationally offended when they are called an "ambulance driver," do you really think that allowing these people to carry a weapon on-duty is a good idea?  I also never stated that we should be doing the job of the police, so I'm not sure where that statement comes from.  I'm simply saying that if people trained in lethal force, laws, etc (the police) are still screwing things up, why would putting a gun into the hands of EMS/FD, who doesn't do any training on lethal force, laws, etc, be a good idea?  


DrParasite said:


> I'm curious: you have a gun, how much stupid stuff have you done with it?  so why would most people be any different than you?


I've certainly never done anything as stupid as pointing it at someone who committed a traffic violation.  Whenever I get into a situation where the potential I may need to draw my gun, I simply leave.  It's not that difficult.  

Go check out some of the FF pages regarding this situation, and you'll get to see many examples of why many people would do something stupid like this.


DrParasite said:


> No one is disagreeing with you.  He did something wrong, and now he will deal with whatever consequences follow.... which is how it works for everyone, both on duty and off.


As should be expected.


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## ffemt8978 (Jun 20, 2021)

FiremanMike said:


> I work in an urban area with a high per capita violent crime rate.  I’ve seen my share of shootings, stabbings, and assaults.  I’ve been on hot scenes.  I’ve been in scenes when shots have been fired.  I’ve been on scenes when you can still smell gunpowder in the air.  I’ve been in scenes were all of a sudden all the cops had their guns out, and I’ve wrestled violent people to the ground.
> 
> The number of times that I wished I had a gun on me = 0


Urban areas have a much lower LEO response time on average than rural areas.  I've been on scenes where we had to stage over 45 minutes to wait for the first officer to arrive on scene, and the second officer didn't arrive for another 20 minutes. I've also been on supposedly "safe" scenes which suddenly went sideways and we were fighting with an armed patient while frantically calling for LEO assitance.

The number of times I wished I had a firearm on scene > 1.

So far it appears as if this guy screwed up, and it will now be up to the court system to deal with.

I am still wondering why the driver of the car drove past the scene in the opposite direction, turned around, and then gets into an argument while trying to drive through the scene.


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## Tigger (Jun 20, 2021)

ffemt8978 said:


> I am still wondering why the driver of the car drove past the scene in the opposite direction, turned around, and then gets into an argument while trying to drive through the scene.


Because people make stupid choices. Completely out of line behavior, but needed nothing close to the reaction from that FF. 

I've worked in the boons for eight years now, I still have no interest in carrying a gun. I know that law enforcement help is a long time coming. That has never come close to changing my mind. If you're desperate for law enforcement, you should be desperate to get off the scene too. If someone pulls a weapon on you in their house, your attempt at producing your CCW stands a good chance of getting you killed.


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## DrParasite (Jun 20, 2021)

FiremanMike said:


> I work in an urban area with a high per capita violent crime rate.  I’ve seen my share of shootings, stabbings, and assaults.  I’ve been on hot scenes.  I’ve been in scenes when shots have been fired.  I’ve been on scenes when you can still smell gunpowder in the air.  I’ve been in scenes were all of a sudden all the cops had their guns out, and I’ve wrestled violent people to the ground.
> 
> The number of times that I wished I had a gun on me = 0


cool... what's your point?  You don't wish you had been armed... and I would never force you to carry if you didn't want to.  Just like off duty, if you choose not to carry, I'm cool with that.  Some might prefer they be armed, and all would hope and pray they never need to draw their weapon.


Tigger said:


> I've worked in the boons for eight years now, I still have no interest in carrying a gun.


That's cool... I am not going to advocate you do something you have no interest in.  But just because you have no interest, what about someone else who does?  especially someone who carries 24/7?


Tigger said:


> If someone pulls a weapon on you in their house, your attempt at producing your CCW stands a good chance of getting you killed.


Umm... no... that's... wrong... However, I might be incorrect... can you provide any hard evidence that supports your illogical claim?  

I'll even provide an example of when a paramedic had to pull his CCW to save his and his partner's life when a person pulled a weapon on them:  








						1 dead, 2 paramedics injured after shooting in Pine Bluff
					

One person is dead, two paramedics injured after a shooting Thursday morning in Pine Bluff, Arkansas. The suspect was killed when an armed medic returned fire.&




					www.ptnewsnetwork.com


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## ffemt8978 (Jun 20, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> cool... what's your point?  You don't wish you had been armed... and I would never force you to carry if you didn't want to.  Just like off duty, if you choose not to carry, I'm cool with that.  Some might prefer they be armed, and all would hope and pray they never need to draw their weapon.
> 
> That's cool... I am not going to advocate you do something you have no interest in.  But just because you have no interest, what about someone else who does?  especially someone who carries 24/7?
> 
> ...


There are examples for both sides of the issue.  Are we willing to accept a blanket policy based upon one person's experiences and beliefs?


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## DrParasite (Jun 20, 2021)

So let me make sure I understand you:


medichopeful said:


> However, off-duty I have no duty to respond, don't deal with sick people who may be altered, don't stop on the side of the highway, don't go into random houses, and don't interact with random people in confined spaces for any length of time and if for some reason I'm uncomfortable, or the person I'm talking to starts acting strange, I can just leave. The situations I would find myself in-duty and off-duty are completely different and if they're not, I made some pretty stupid mistakes to get there.


You carry 24/7 while off duty, and you avoid potentially dangerous situations and have no duty to respond, yet you state that you can't avoid them while on duty, have a duty to respond, and occasionally are involved in potentially dangerous situations while on duty, but carrying a weapon to defend yourself is foolish.  Do I have that right?


medichopeful said:


> I'm not saying that either.  What I am saying is that if start allowing EMS to carry firearms, people are going to make stupid decisions, as is demonstrated by this situation.


people make stupid decisions all the time.  sometimes their stupid decisions result in them calling EMS.  But that's an individual who makes a stupid decision; we don't judge everyone by one person's stupid decision.  and if we would, it's that stereotyping?


medichopeful said:


> We have people in this field who get irrationally offended when they are called an "ambulance driver," do you really think that allowing these people to carry a weapon on-duty is a good idea?


Your comparing apples and pineapples.  People get offended by the term ambulance driver, but no one is going to pull a firearm as a result of it happening... 


medichopeful said:


> I also never stated that we should be doing the job of the police, so I'm not sure where that statement comes from.  I'm simply saying that if people trained in lethal force, laws, etc (the police) are still screwing things up, why would putting a gun into the hands of EMS/FD, who doesn't do any training on lethal force, laws, etc, be a good idea?


ok, that's a fair point... you're a CCW holder, who carries 24/7...  if people trained in lethal force, laws, etc (the police) are still screwing things up, why would putting a gun into the hands of random people, who don't do any training on lethal force, laws be a good idea?  Based on your own statement, you shouldn't be permitted to carry a firearm.


medichopeful said:


> I've certainly never done anything as stupid as pointing it at someone who committed a traffic violation.  Whenever I get into a situation where the potential I may need to draw my gun, I simply leave.  It's not that difficult.


two things: 1) the questions of if you had ever drawn a gun on a person who committed a traffic violation was never asked.  the question was in response to your statement of "Give them a gun, and stupid stuff will happen" what stupid stuff have you done since you are a gun carrier?

2) "Whenever I get into a situation where the potential I may need to draw my gun, I simply leave"  good answer... so why even bother carrying then?  if you are going to leave before you need the gun, every time, than you have no need to even carry it.  right?  and yet, you still carry 24/7... do you see the mixed message?


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## Tigger (Jun 20, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> cool... what's your point?  You don't wish you had been armed... and I would never force you to carry if you didn't want to.  Just like off duty, if you choose not to carry, I'm cool with that.  Some might prefer they be armed, and all would hope and pray they never need to draw their weapon.
> 
> That's cool... I am not going to advocate you do something you have no interest in.  But just because you have no interest, what about someone else who does?  especially someone who carries 24/7?
> 
> ...


I think the whole n=1 thing applies here...not to mention that both of them were shot. I am going to defer to DT4EMS on this one, I tend to accept the teachings of a guy who has spent his whole life studying and teaching self defense to EMS providers over a guy that would argue that the color of the sky with you. Weapons don't work in EMS confontrations, making a vacuum between you and the former patient does. Reaching for a gun or whatever weapon is a great way to incentive your attacker to harm you.



ffemt8978 said:


> There are examples for both sides of the issue.  Are we willing to accept a blanket policy based upon one person's experiences and beliefs?


I am willing to accept a blanket policy that does not ensure a gun is brought to every scene, sure. Let's go back to the original video, where a blanket policy of fire and EMS providers not carrying guns would have prevented this entire thing.


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## DrParasite (Jun 20, 2021)

Tigger said:


> I think the whole n=1 thing applies here...not to mention that both of them were shot. I am going to defer to DT4EMS on this one, I tend to accept the teachings of a guy who has spent his whole life studying and teaching self defense to EMS providers over a guy that would argue that the color of the sky with you. Weapons don't work in EMS confontrations, making a vacuum between you and the former patient does. Reaching for a gun or whatever weapon is a great way to incentive your attacker to harm you.


When you talk about DT4EMS, are you referring to Kip (the original founder, former LEO, martial arts instructor, paramedic, etc), or Jason (the new owner with a ton of experience in EMS)?  Both are cool guys, but they have different backgrounds.  Also, remember, they are teaching classes to agencies, and not saying that they should give everyone a firearm.

And I don't think either of them said if someone pulls a gun on you, you are more likely to get shot if you pull your own gun.  But if they want to prove me wrong, I'm willing to listen.  


Tigger said:


> I am willing to accept a blanket policy that does not ensure a gun is brought to every scene, sure. Let's go back to the original video, where a blanket policy of fire and EMS providers not carrying guns would have prevented this entire thing.


So that's based on your opinion... what makes your opinion any more valid than mine?  And for the record, I haven't given my opinion on if I think paramedics should be armed, only provided factual information about the topic and asked questions of those who carry 24/7 except on the ambulance.  

I am not going to dispute that having such a policy would have prevented this entire thing... are you going to dispute that we would have two dead paramedics had the pine bluff Arkansas paramedic not pulled his own gun in self-defense?  I mean, it's not like drawing his weapon put the paramedics in any more risk...

We can just pretend that paramedics are never shot, but it did near me as per the local news:








						Emergency responder shot while on duty in Raleigh during Juneteenth celebration
					

An emergency responder was shot while on duty during a Juneteenth event at Roberts Park in Raleigh.




					www.wral.com


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## Tigger (Jun 20, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> When you talk about DT4EMS, are you referring to Kip (the original founder, former LEO, martial arts instructor, paramedic, etc), or Jason (the new owner with a ton of experience in EMS)?  Both are cool guys, but they have different backgrounds.  Also, remember, they are teaching classes to agencies, and not saying that they should give everyone a firearm.
> And I don't think either of them said if someone pulls a gun on you, you are more likely to get shot if you pull your own gun.  But if they want to prove me wrong, I'm willing to listen.
> 
> So that's based on your opinion... what makes your opinion any more valid than mine?  And for the record, I haven't given my opinion on if I think paramedics should be armed, only provided factual information about the topic and asked questions of those who carry 24/7 except on the ambulance.
> ...


🥱


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## ffemt8978 (Jun 21, 2021)

Tigger said:


> I am willing to accept a blanket policy that does not ensure a gun is brought to every scene, sure. Let's go back to the original video, where a blanket policy of fire and EMS providers not carrying guns would have prevented this entire thing.


So would have a policy preventing fire or EMS from going to any accident scene until law enforcement arrives.  The problem with policies is that they don't actually prevent situations like this...they just provide justification for punishment if they are violated.


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## Tigger (Jun 21, 2021)

ffemt8978 said:


> So would have a policy preventing fire or EMS from going to any accident scene until law enforcement arrives.  The problem with policies is that they don't actually prevent situations like this...they just provide justification for punishment if they are violated.


Pointing a gun at a motorist that committed a traffic violation is indeed something that should be punished by the agency. Not to mention that policy with clearly spelled out progressive discipline is certainly a deterrent.


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## ffemt8978 (Jun 21, 2021)

Tigger said:


> Pointing a gun at a motorist that committed a traffic violation is indeed something that should be punished by the agency. Not to mention that policy with clearly spelled out progressive discipline is certainly a deterrent.


Agreed, but that is different than your statement that a blanket policy ensures no guns are brought to every scene.


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## FiremanMike (Jun 21, 2021)

The interesting thing to me about the flow of this conversation is that there is VERY LITTLE objective data available because there are VERY FEW fire/ems personnel concealed carrying.  So we are left with opinions and attempting to extrapolate from the small amount of data that we have, which is then immediately disregarded because it is opinion and extrapolation from a small dataset..


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## medichopeful (Jun 21, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> So let me make sure I understand you:
> 
> You carry 24/7 while off duty, and you avoid potentially dangerous situations and have no duty to respond, yet you state that you can't avoid them while on duty, have a duty to respond, and occasionally are involved in potentially dangerous situations while on duty, but carrying a weapon to defend yourself is foolish.  Do I have that right?
> 
> ...


Why such an argumentative, demeaning tone?


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## DrParasite (Jun 21, 2021)

medichopeful said:


> Why such an argumentative, demeaning tone?


not demeaning at all... argumentative, maybe, but only because you're giving conflicting/confusing information, hence my request for clarification.


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## Phillyrube (Jun 30, 2021)

Maybe was getting even for the guy who pulled a gun on a couple medics in Florida?



			https://www.bradenton.com/news/local/article252274228.html


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## ffemt8978 (Jun 30, 2021)

Phillyrube said:


> Maybe was getting even for the guy who pulled a gun on a couple medics in Florida?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.bradenton.com/news/local/article252274228.html


That possibility is so thin yiu can see through it.


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## CarSevenFour (Jul 16, 2021)

"Can someone help me identify this man ? Yesterday on 74/76 , I was in a confrontation with another fireman (I wish I had a photo of him) & then was threatened by this fireman with a gun pointed at my car . When the State Trooper arrived , he told me it was nothing he could do bc he didn’t see anything & told me to file a report . This is passed a report & was not addressed correctly . When did Firemen become police and pull guns on people ? This is Columbus County Acme-Delco Fire Department btw . UPDATE : Thank you for helping me identify him ." (redacted firefighter's name-74)--from the video post.

Well, firefighters do routinely carry firearms, fire investigators working in the Fire Prevention Bureau, for instance. Ours were issued .38 Special short barrel revolvers in ankle holsters. They took their firearm and LE training with the city PD and had police powers as well but retained firefighter status.


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## CCCSD (Jul 16, 2021)

Incorrect. SOME, those qualified, carried a firearm issued by the Agency. They attended training required by the State of California so that they could have Peace Officer status, as required by their job classification.


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## EMTCHARLIE (Jul 16, 2021)

How can  you say if you weren't there? I have never heard of this before.


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## CCCSD (Jul 16, 2021)

EMTCHARLIE said:


> How can  you say if you weren't there? I have never heard of this before.


It helps if you tell us what you are referring to…


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## jgmedic (Jul 17, 2021)

CarSevenFour said:


> "Can someone help me identify this man ? Yesterday on 74/76 , I was in a confrontation with another fireman (I wish I had a photo of him) & then was threatened by this fireman with a gun pointed at my car . When the State Trooper arrived , he told me it was nothing he could do bc he didn’t see anything & told me to file a report . This is passed a report & was not addressed correctly . When did Firemen become police and pull guns on people ? This is Columbus County Acme-Delco Fire Department btw . UPDATE : Thank you for helping me identify him ." (redacted firefighter's name-74)--from the video post.
> 
> Well, firefighters do routinely carry firearms, fire investigators working in the Fire Prevention Bureau, for instance. Ours were issued .38 Special short barrel revolvers in ankle holsters. They took their firearm and LE training with the city PD and had police powers as well but retained firefighter status.


So qualified Fire Investigators carry firearms? That's a far cry from saying firefighters routinely carry firearms.


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## pregnancywhine (Aug 11, 2021)

jgmedic said:


> So qualified Fire Investigators carry firearms? That's a far cry from saying firefighters routinely carry firearms.


That's kinda cool tho. Lol


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