# GPS on the Ambulance



## makphisto (Jan 17, 2008)

Does anyone use any GPS system on their ambulance?  I got to play with a GPS system, a Garmin, over the holidays and I really think that they would help out tremendously in our district.  We're pretty rural, and while we keep maps and we all try to "know" the territory, there are occasions where having a voice tell you where to turn would be helpful.

I'm getting opposition from the old-timers though.  They think it will become a crutch, GPS isn't always right, etc, etc.  I think it's just because they're not exactly techno-savvy and they fear change.  And that's ok!  I'm not saying replace the maps, I'm just saying add GPS as another tool.

Thoughts?


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## Asclepius (Jan 17, 2008)

I got my Garmin Nuvi two Christmas's  ago. I love it. I take mine to work with me every time I go. It has never failed me yet. In fact, I have better directions on my Garmin than the dispatcher's do with their satellite pictures and maps of where we are.

The only thing I wish Garmin would do in their design is add public servant icons like ambulances, fire trucks, or police cars and then have a fastest way selection that would help you avoid major residential areas unless that was your only way through.

At any rate, the Garmin is definitely a tool to be added to your collection. In the end, there is no liability to having one with you.


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## makphisto (Jan 17, 2008)

We have a meeting tonight, I'm going to bring it up again.  If they refuse, I think I might just invest in my own and take it with me on calls.  That'll show 'em!


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## medicdan (Jan 17, 2008)

I am a techno-guru, and always embrace new technologies, but maintain some skepticism.
I have seen GPS do incredible things in an ambulances, specifically in Israel as well as here in the US. People are always slow in accepting new technology, but  usage will come in time. I have a few warnings for those who undertake the technology:
* Having/Using GPS is no replacement for knowing your coverage area. There will be times (albeit rarely) when the GPS gives you poor directions or it doesn't work. 
* There are GPS units that have software that does calculate routes based on decreasing travel on small roads, avoiding lights (or avoiding "unspecified" or non-opticon lights), and calculating routes based on traffic, although you need to look hard for the software. 
* You need to look out for bridges or other things on the road if your rig is overly tall (or has a long antenna)...
* Although the cost may seem high at the beginning, there are no monthly costs and essentially no upkeep costs. 

Good Luck,

DES


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## MMiz (Jan 17, 2008)

I used a Garmin iQue 3600 when I worked in EMS.  I wouldn't work a shift without it.  I still wouldn't work a shift in EMS without a GPS.  I can read maps, and I can get there, but the added comfort of the GPS is worth the price.


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## Arkymedic (Jan 18, 2008)

makphisto said:


> Does anyone use any GPS system on their ambulance? I got to play with a GPS system, a Garmin, over the holidays and I really think that they would help out tremendously in our district. We're pretty rural, and while we keep maps and we all try to "know" the territory, there are occasions where having a voice tell you where to turn would be helpful.
> 
> I'm getting opposition from the old-timers though. They think it will become a crutch, GPS isn't always right, etc, etc. I think it's just because they're not exactly techno-savvy and they fear change. And that's ok! I'm not saying replace the maps, I'm just saying add GPS as another tool.
> 
> Thoughts?


 
We used a cheapo version of Tom Tom purchased at Walmart at my last service per our county contract. It was able to give lat/long/utm and do many of the things a real gps does and was very effective.


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## Emt /b/ (Jan 18, 2008)

I just purchased one. It'll be helpful for learning the service area, and once I do that, it'll still be helpful for long distance transfers.


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## mdtaylor (Jan 18, 2008)

MMiz said:


> I used a Garmin iQue 3600 when I worked in EMS.  I wouldn't work a shift without it.  I still wouldn't work a shift in EMS without a GPS.  I can read maps, and I can get there, but the *added comfort of the GPS is worth the price.*



Emphasis added. Some of these newer kids (sorry, medics) will tend to rely on the GPS instead of allowing it to supplement their map reading skills. They need to be taught that the GPS will take them directly to the address or waypoint programed into it, and not to the incident location. Our systems are linked to our CAD and often, if followed without regard to mapreading, will lead crews on wild goose chases.


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## Flight-LP (Jan 18, 2008)

GPS technology is great and has been very beneficial to me as a pilot. However, I too am skeptical of people over utilizing them and failing to use critical map reading skills, having an intimate familiarization with their territory, and using some good ol' common sense. All too often, I see people focus too much on the new toys and forget the basics. 

Case in point........

All of my flight students do time in the simulator during intitial instrument training. They have a Garmin 430 available to use. It's funny how every time they get a RAIM failure and are forced to use other navigational aids, they wind up crashing or getting lost. Why? Because they lose their situational awareness.

GPS can fail, given the time, they will. A GPS cannot replace the human touch, so get out your maps and learn your district........................


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## MedicSqrl (Jan 18, 2008)

GPS can be an awesome asset, but like everyone has said nothing beats knowing your area. I also find that GPS can help you learn your district when going to a call. They show cross streets and other things that you can learn to better know your surroundings. I have a streetpilot C340 and wouldn't leave anywhere without it.


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## firecoins (Jan 18, 2008)

Use a Tom Tom XL1.  Love it.  :wub:


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## AZFF/EMT (Jan 19, 2008)

We are so lucky here. We are on the Phoenix regional dispatch and have use Computer aided dispatch and have MCT's in our trucks and rescues. You can pretty much do anything on them and get a very detailed map and evn arial photos like google maps. Tells us every parcel of land, and even where hydrants are. EMS calls get a little star of life at the location, fires have flames at the address and haz get the haz-mat symbol. Very firefighter proof.

Then, when I go and work part-time for PMT or medcare/Southwest amb. it can be a nightmare trying to find places without GPS directions. Some of the full-time people there use personal GPS. I would say if you can afford it and you work ambo full-time GET IT, and learn your area, especially if you work on a 911 system, it fells really bad when you take more time getting to a patient because you are lost. It happens.


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## TKO (Jan 19, 2008)

I am all for going GPS but I agree that we shouldn't become dependent on the technology.  I think if you need to fire up the GPS, then you should also be digging out the map.  It is just better than sitting in the bus for a few minutes figuring out which way to go if you already have a direction.  So if the service gives you GPS, you should also be trying to locate the address on a map JIC-SHTF! and you discover the GPS is screwy.  No way you can explain to your U/C that the pt died because you were on the other side of your coverage area because the GPS went screwy and not get fired when it wasn't service issued in the first place.

I would also like to see fish-eye backup cameras on all the buses.  There are just too many times when I can't get out of the back to ground guide the bus into a parking spot.  It's ridiculous not to have a backup camera.  Again, used in part with your mirrors (responsibly) it is a great tool.

And that's the thing, they'll eventually become tools in our toolbox, it's just a matter of teaching people good user habits.


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## CAMedicJohn (Jan 20, 2008)

We have used them on our transport rigs in S.F.  The new people don't know the city that well and it helps them get to know the districts, hospitals, and conv. homes. I have a alpine touch screen in my bus but it doesn't get used that often. I have work my district for 4 years and know most of it by heart. But on occasion an address will throw me and it comes in handy. 

Just my 2 cents... Hey where's my change.....

LOLOLOLOL


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## emtwacker710 (Jan 20, 2008)

our squad just bought 4 tom toms, 1 for the flycar, another for the captians car and the other 2 for our 2 rigs, and they work great, there have only been a few times, very few times that they have messed up but we corrected it and have had no problems so far, they really help because we mutual aid nearby districts and a lot of people only know the roads in our districts and not others, I also have one for my car, because I 1st respond and it works great


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## MedicPrincess (Jan 20, 2008)

makphisto said:


> We have a meeting tonight, I'm going to bring it up again. If they refuse, I think I might just invest in my own and take it with me on calls. That'll show 'em!


 
This is intresting.  When I started for the company I work for, GPS was not planned for our trucks.

I use the TOM TOM 1.  I carry it everywhere.  Each day when I would go into our HQ building to get my truck assignment, I would have my GPS with me.  First the supervisors played with it.  Then the OPS MGR saw it and played with it.  Then one day our owner was there and he took me and the OPS MGR out to the truck.  He had our OPS MGR call out addresses.  I programmed my GPS, while he found it in the map book.  Every single time I could program my GPS faster than he could find the street in the mapbook.  Considering our pretty stringent repsonse time requirements under our contract, this minute saved was a HUGH appeal to him.

He then put a couple different GPS's in the supervisors vehicle, the QRV's, and the OPS MGR's vehicle.

And now, we are getting a system that works along with dispatch.  So instead of sending an alphanumeric page to a pager, it will go to the GPS and program the fastest route for us.

Of course, all the people who played with mine and then went and bought their own for use on the trucks are now kicking themselves.  But theirs will come in handy other places as well.


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## medic8613 (Jan 22, 2008)

I recently got a new Jeep with GPS built in, and use it responding to calls. The only downside is mine does not allow input while the car is moving, and there is no way to turn this "safety feature" off. This is only a problem when dispatch screws it up and gives out the wrong street name. My GPS does allow me to set a hospital as my destination while driving, but this would really only be useful if I was transporting patient in my POV, which I am of course, not doing.

GPS shouldn't be a substitute for knowing your coverage area. You should know the best ways to the hospitals, which streets have lots of traffic and when, but if you get sent to a back road or somewhere outside of your normal coverage area, it is a valuable tool.


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## russ899 (Mar 1, 2008)

Yep, agree with the above.

Im a tech buff,  but from experience in the field GPS's do fail, for many reasons,  and when on a call,  it can waist time.

Know your area, region,  know how to read a map, and have a good sense of direction


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## stonez (Mar 2, 2008)

I agree. Know your area, know how to read a map, and use a Garmin!!!!
Sometimes GPS systems take you a round-a-bout way but they will get you there eventually.


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## Katie (Mar 2, 2008)

I was told that we had them for a while in our area, but they're not put on the units now unless you bring one.  Reason was people were relying too much on the GPS which wasn't always updated or accurate.  So yeah knowing the area is best (which I'm still learning).  I think it's a good tool though.  But be able to do without it if the need arises


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## Outbac1 (Mar 2, 2008)

We have GPS on our trucks here, built into our onboard computer, (Panasonic Toughbook). It tracks us for dispatch and marks where the call is. It is quite reliable but occasionaly doesn't work. All trucks have a detailed map book but we find the best backup is a friend at the other end of the radio. A few simple directions using local landmarks and we're usually good to go. Nothing beats local knowledge.


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## firecoins (Mar 2, 2008)

even when GPS doesn't work, it gets us really close to the call location.  We figure it on our own than.


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## Emt /b/ (Mar 2, 2008)

I use my own GPS, but only for things such as long distance transfers and emergencies in areas that I am not fully familiar with. It is a good tool to have, but I only use it when I need to.


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## Pittsburgh Proud (Mar 5, 2008)

I like many others have my own Gamin nuvi 350 that travels ever where I go. I work for to services in the area, one is trying to load all there trucks up with them (They have 33 trucks) and the other wants to by them. We find better to waste 30 seconds to punch it in the GPS rather than waste the time by missing a street or getting lost. 
I would say you can go wrong with them we all have direction books but nothing works better than a GPS. B)


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## Flight-LP (Mar 5, 2008)

Pittsburgh Proud said:


> I like many others have my own Gamin nuvi 350 that travels ever where I go. I work for to services in the area, one is trying to load all there trucks up with them (They have 33 trucks) and the other wants to by them. We find better to waste 30 seconds to punch it in the GPS rather than waste the time by missing a street or getting lost.
> I would say you can go wrong with them we all have direction books but nothing works better than a GPS. B)



So if I'm not breathing, then I have to wait another 30 seconds so you can play with your GPS? I don't think so my friend! What is so hard about actually learning your district and learning to read a map? I've done it for over 15 years and have never gotten lost nor missed a street. What happens when the next major catastrophe occurs and satellite coverage is lost? I CAN happen, given time it probably will. Or, even more likely, what if you lose 12V DC power to your GPS unit? Sorry, there is no excuse for a delay in response to play with a GPS nor is it acceptable to blame the GPS when it doesn't work..................


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## Jon (Mar 6, 2008)

At the new job, we've got GPS units (Garmin brand) permanently installed in EVERY rig (all ambulaces, medic cars, etc). I love it... I'm somewhat new to the area, and it is easy to just punch in the address and roll... as I get used to the territory, I'm not using it AS MUCH for hospital transports, etc... but it is a nice resource to have.

At the vollie squad, our MDC's have Microsoft Streets and Trips and a GPS antenna, and that works OK for us.

I know how to read a mapbook and still keep one handy... the GPS is just easier to use while driving.

At the paid transport squad, a lot of the full timers have portable GPS systems (even the ones that don't own their own cars!). The GPS makes trying to find the best route from Point A to Point C simple, and prevents us from trying to double-back to an area we are familiar with.


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## Pittsburgh Proud (Mar 6, 2008)

Flight-LP said:


> So if I'm not breathing, then I have to wait another 30 seconds so you can play with your GPS? I don't think so my friend! What is so hard about actually learning your district and learning to read a map? I've done it for over 15 years and have never gotten lost nor missed a street. What happens when the next major catastrophe occurs and satellite coverage is lost? I CAN happen, given time it probably will. Or, even more likely, what if you lose 12V DC power to your GPS unit? Sorry, there is no excuse for a delay in response to play with a GPS nor is it acceptable to blame the GPS when it doesn't work..................



Let me put it this way the company I work for has 11 stations and you can't know all the area's well. I pretty good and when I don't I said there are map books in ever truck but there are two of us. one can start out while the other puts in where we are heading or reads the maps book to refresh our memory. 
To each there own. I didn't mean to imply we are sitting doing nothing waiting for a gps to come in but we are already enroute.


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## TheMowingMonk (Mar 9, 2008)

the lame thing is GPS units arent really industry standard or you ahve to get one yourself. Around here none of the ambulances use GPS, they still use the old fashion Thomas guides. and most of there coverage area is way to big to know it by heart. And i know on many occations that ambulances get lost on ways to calls (GPS would be nice to tell you where you are). Well the san mateo county contract is up next year and i know they are setting that whoever gets the contract has GPS navigation in all of their rigs.


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## reaper (Mar 9, 2008)

We have the Ranger AVL's. They use GPS and Automatically bring up the map, when dispatch sends the call through. They are nice to start rolling on a call, in the right direction. We also have mapping in the toughbooks and map books. We always double check the directions on them. The AVL has cut up to a minute off of response times.

I don't care who you are, no one knows every street in town, unless it is a small town.

It is arrogant to say that you have never been lost or missed a street. Every one has before. Maps are wrong all the time. If you know all the streets by heart, then you don't live in a city! IMHO.


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## keith10247 (Mar 9, 2008)

I was told just last night that all my units' toughbooks are being reprogrammed on Wednesday to include the latest mapping software and maps for the county.  At the same time they are enabling our AVL and AVR software so not only will we be getting directions automagically when we get dispatched but we will also start getting dispatched based on which unit is closer.  Should be interesting to see how this works.  Perhaps my unit will actually get some calls when we go out shopping outside of our first due.  Ive received 8 calls this year now.  

I think PD rolled this out a month or 2 ago for their cruisers.  They are the priority department in the county...I think it is great in this case because the major bugs will hopefully be ironed out before it gets to us.


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## MikeRi24 (Mar 9, 2008)

we have no such thing at the current time. however, we are "supposedly" getting a new computer system in all of our rigs, with the Toughbooks that have buit in navigation. We tired this a while ago as an expiriment on a couple rigs, and this is what ensued (keep in mind i live/work in Buffalo, NY):
dispatch: "575, whats your current location?"
575: "Mian and the 198 post"
dispatch: "uhh are you sure?"
575: "well, we're starting at the back of sister's of mercy, where else would we be?"
dispatch: "oh ok. well, according to the GPS, we have you in the middle of lake erie right now"

so yeah we have some bugs to work out, but hopefully we get them sooner than later. our dispatch is pretty good about giving us major cross streets and some landmarks when they give out calls, so as long as u know the main roads in the city, you're usually pretty good. I don;t know the city well at all yet and dispatch is always really helpful and I havent gotten lost yet.


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## Jon (Mar 10, 2008)

Flight-LP said:


> So if I'm not breathing, then I have to wait another 30 seconds so you can play with your GPS? I don't think so my friend! What is so hard about actually learning your district and learning to read a map? I've done it for over 15 years and have never gotten lost nor missed a street. What happens when the next major catastrophe occurs and satellite coverage is lost? I CAN happen, given time it probably will. Or, even more likely, what if you lose 12V DC power to your GPS unit? Sorry, there is no excuse for a delay in response to play with a GPS nor is it acceptable to blame the GPS when it doesn't work..................


LP.... My volunteer service has an extensive driver precepting program, requiring drivers to have a decent grasp of our first-run territory (this means we need to know the main cross streets / grid of the town, as well as most of the major and/or busy roads within our territory)... we can't always know where EVERY call is, so we use mapbooks, as well as the GPS-equipped laptops to help us find where the street is exactly, even though we usually have a general route of travel with the basic dispatch address.

At the paid company, I'm slowly learning the first run territory as we go. Every day I learn something new... new side streets, new route to hospital, etc. I find the GPS is faster than trying to read a mapbook, and it means I don't have to pull over and check the mapbook... I can glance at the GPS and see the map.


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## TheMowingMonk (Mar 10, 2008)

i dunno ab out delays from GPS but i always seem to find the using GPS is faster than trying to flip through the pages of a map book.


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## NJN (Mar 10, 2008)

Well if your only using one map i find that i have an easier time finding the street on the key and going to that coordinate. Our maps have the block numbers on them, plus if you follow the route specified by a GPS, there may be a quicker side street that you miss. But thats just my preference to do old fashioned nav.


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## paramedix (Mar 21, 2008)

If I'm working alone, a GPS can be of extreme value. It's also nice to have a map book at hand all times. 

If that GPS starts "recalculating"..."recalculating"... I can throw it out of the window. lol


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## Pittsburgh Proud (Mar 21, 2008)

paramedix said:


> If I'm working alone, a GPS can be of extreme value. It's also nice to have a map book at hand all times.
> 
> If that GPS starts "recalculating"..."recalculating"... I can throw it out of the window. lol



Mine if you miss a turn that's when it starts with the "recalculating"  Just what I need another machine in the world with an addition.


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## emtbhardy (Mar 24, 2008)

I think that all ambulances should have a computer like what is in a police vehicle. That way you have a GPS but you also have extra items. For example dispatch can send you all the info they were able to get from the caller. Also dispatch would know your location. So if you was to need help they would know your location. Plus it would be able to send important info to the ER.


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## Jon (Mar 24, 2008)

emtbhardy said:


> I think that all ambulances should have a computer like what is in a police vehicle. That way you have a GPS but you also have extra items. For example dispatch can send you all the info they were able to get from the caller. Also dispatch would know your location. So if you was to need help they would know your location. Plus it would be able to send important info to the ER.


Many agencies around me have these systems for 911 dispatch, EMS, FD, and PD. We don't use them to talk with the ED's... but we do use them to get dispatch info and map the calls... and I love 'em!


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## Firesurfer75 (Apr 3, 2008)

GPS is a great asset that is just an added bonus to navigation. I feel it's important for the user to not rely on it as a crutch, as a map and personal knowledge of the area are key. Unfortunately not everyone is fortunate enough to know every corner in their coverage area, I live in my district and certainly don't know every address or street, so GPS in addition to the map are great help. As far as "old-timers" go, it sounds "cool" to talk like that, lol, but there is absolutely nothing in the world wrong with progress.


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## CFRBryan347768 (Apr 3, 2008)

*We*

do indeed have GPS on our ambulance, but most of the people that ride do know the area very well. the only times i do see it being used is when we go mutual aid or were really lost!!


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## MAC4NH (Apr 21, 2008)

I ride for 3 agencies (2 paid, one volunteer).  All have GPS.  Overall the gizmos are good but they do have limitations.  In my hometown (volunteer), the machine does not pick up the satellites until we are about half a mile from quarters.  In the paid systems they are helpful but they do cause you to take longer to learn the area.  You become too reliant on the device.  In my main job (Jersey City, NJ), I started long before the GPS was installed.  We had to learn everything by maps and cross street books.  I knew the city much better in 6 months than the new 6-monthers know it now.  However I do find it useful to guide us to the right block since our CAD's cross streets are often wrong.  As for the tough book terminals, we have a couple of units with those devices on a trial basis.  They are good for dispatch but their routing information is hard to follow.  The GPS is much easier to follow.


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## FireNinja (May 13, 2008)

We have Tom Tom GPS'S on our rigs and they are super helpful but you still need to know where you are going because they have gotten me totally lost a few times as well.


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## firemedic7982 (May 13, 2008)

My part time service has gps maps integrated into the MDT's in the trucks, which are fed off of the GIS data from the CAD. It is helpfull, but people rely too heavily on it, and screw themselves in the end. 

My full time service does not have GPS in the trucks. Many of us who have our own Nav's will bring them to work for our use. However policy no longer allows us to use GPS units in the trucks. Our agency feels that it is simply one more unnessessary distraction to the driver, who is already overstimulated on the way to a call. 

I agree. No GPS in the trucks. 

Learn your district, and the districts around you . Learn to read a map.


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## JPINFV (May 13, 2008)

firemedic7982 said:


> My part time service has gps maps integrated into the MDT's in the trucks, which are fed off of the GIS data from the CAD. It is helpfull, but people rely too heavily on it, and screw themselves in the end.
> 
> My full time service does not have GPS in the trucks. Many of us who have our own Nav's will bring them to work for our use. However policy no longer allows us to use GPS units in the trucks. Our agency feels that it is simply one more unnessessary distraction to the driver, who is already overstimulated on the way to a call.
> 
> ...



I definitely agree that GPS needs to be used cautiously if used on an ambulance. That said, it is useful if you're covering in a "large" district (600 sq miles of developed and contiguous suburban cities with over 20 hospitals in the area).

That said, there's nothing really that I can argue about with map reading. Thomas Guide, how art I love thy (I wasn't a humanities major in college for a reason).


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## firecoins (May 13, 2008)

I am a big supporter of GPS being on the trucks.  However:
http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080513/NEWS03/805130368

I must admit that there is good reason for concern.


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## Flight-LP (May 14, 2008)

Out of curiosity, wasn't the driver playing with an IPod and not a GPS? Was there new updates to this story?


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## JPINFV (May 14, 2008)

yep, official investigation released that the driver was fooling around with a GPS and thought he saw a car merging into the lane in the corner of his eye.


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