# Police response to EMS calls



## DrParasite (Apr 18, 2011)

Simple question, what calls do you get a PD unit to respond for?

We get PD dispatched for the following calls:
any reported unconscious
any cardiac arrest/DOA
any assault in progress (assaults typically get an EMS response, unless the assaulter is still on scene)
any penetrating trauma
any MVA where traffic control is needed or a stolen vehicle is involved, or if it's a potentially fatal MVA
any violent EDP (non-violent EDPs get an EMS response, and a PD when one becomes available)

our PD does not do first response, they are only there for LEO stuff.

I thought this was pretty much standard for everywhere, but recent threads how shown me otherwise.


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## MassEMT-B (Apr 18, 2011)

Around here, police respond to pretty much every 911 call. I am hoping to become a police officer, and from what I'veheard/seen a lot of other places do the same.


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## HotelCo (Apr 18, 2011)

Depends what city I'm in...


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## Aidey (Apr 18, 2011)

They automatically respond on:

Major MVAs
Assaults in progress
Violent Psychs


They might show up eventually at minor MVAs or post assaults. Depending on how busy they are they may end up meeting the patient at the hospital instead. If we want them for something else we have to cal them.


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## LucidResq (Apr 18, 2011)

Automatic:
the injuries from crimes already mentioned 
all MVAs (but EMS/fire only go when injuries are confirmed or other circumstances like rollover or vs building)
all OD/poisoning calls - even those claimed to be unintentional.
All suicidal parties.
Cardiac arrest 
Man down (basically unconscious or severely altered in public with no immediately known reason)

At our discretion:
psych calls. Depends on situation. I usually don't send PD to facilities because of the availability of trained hands on scene but usually do send them otherwise.
Anything fishy, especially with kids, elderly or significant others involved. Had a two year old with completely unexplained vaginal bleeding, for example. PD went.


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## rescue1 (Apr 18, 2011)

In my station in PA, they get dispatched to around 3/4 of our calls, in fact, I think it might be any that do not originate at a health care facility like a nursing home. They don't do first response, they do traffic control, make sure the scene is secure, etc.

In MD, we get the police on any overdose call or when drug use is suspected, any cardiac arrest for first response CPR, all MVCs for traffic control, emotional disorders, and any violent injury like assaults, stabbings and GSWs. Or when we call, obviously.


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## LucidResq (Apr 19, 2011)

I'm just curious... those who say PD respond on most of their calls... do you think this is beneficial? From what I'm reading these are mostly low-population areas. What is the purpose of having PD run on most medical calls? Just wondering if you think this helps patients or not. 

I come from an urban area, where PD resources are stretched to the brink and many of our patients hate cops. It seems like this is a different world from the the smaller rural areas some of you are coming from.


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## DesertMedic66 (Apr 19, 2011)

LucidResq said:


> I'm just curious... those who say PD respond on most of their calls... do you think this is beneficial? From what I'm reading these are mostly low-population areas. What is the purpose of having PD run on most medical calls? Just wondering if you think this helps patients or not.
> 
> I come from an urban area, where PD resources are stretched to the brink and many of our patients hate cops. It seems like this is a different world from the the smaller rural areas some of you are coming from.



Both good and bad. 

Good because when they are on a scene it's usually alot safer for us. They are good at making sure no one steals our ambulance (yes that has happened). And they are good for crowd control. 

Bad because our officers like to get in the way alot. No one wants to tell the truth when there is a cop there. They ask us 5 million times if we should be transporting them. They like to make us wait on scene while they talk to the patient. Did I mention they like to block the ambulance in so we can't move?


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## NomadicMedic (Apr 19, 2011)

We get PD on the following:

any weapons or assault call
The "man down" calls
Domestic Violence
ODs
MVAs
We can also get 'em when we need assistance with traffic, crowds or unruly family members. However, the cops where I work primary 911 are so busy that we can wait upwards of 45 minutes for a "routine" officer request. Of course, if we need them to expedite, we just say the magic words on the radio and every cop within 10 miles comes screaming in. 

We have a great working relationship with the LEOs in my city... they know we don't request them unless we really need them.


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## DrParasite (Apr 20, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> Depends what city I'm in...


ok, so in the big city, when do they come, and in the little city when do they come?





LucidResq said:


> I'm just curious... those who say PD respond on most of their calls... do you think this is beneficial? From what I'm reading these are mostly low-population areas. What is the purpose of having PD run on most medical calls? Just wondering if you think this helps patients or not.


I work part time in a small urban city part time, about 50,000 people in a little over 5+ sq miles.  we get PD for the calls listed above, not for most (although one night time officer did say they send an officer, usually him, on all calls, but I have yet to see it). Sometimes they get patient information, but usually they just stare at the patient, and maybe give an update on the patient's condition.


LucidResq said:


> I come from an urban area, where PD resources are stretched to the brink and many of our patients hate cops. It seems like this is a different world from the the smaller rural areas some of you are coming from.


my FT job is like that.  PD doesn't have enough units, so an ambulance is often sent before the cops (esp if no cops are available).  So while some of the population hate cops, I do still want cops there for my safety, regardless of if the locals want them there or not.

One side story: was working an OT shift in the suburbs one day, in an area that bordered the not so nice city next door.  we got dispatched to a diff breather call, and our local PD first responder (we have one dedicated officer whose primary job is emergency operations and assisting FD and EMS),  arrived first and had her on oxygen before we got there. Anyways, we treated and while we were treating her, the brother of the patient started being annoying and generally banging on the door of the ambulance to get information that was not time critical to us treating his sister.

After the patient was transported, I made the joke to the officer "next time that happens, can you just shoot the guy?"  his response "absolutely not.  her house, and the house next door, are occupied with known gang members.  if I shoot, they are gonna shoot back, and I am definitely out gunned."  he then told me had just sat down for his lunch break, heard the address and hustled over to the location because he knew who lived there.  Not saying anything would have happened, but sometimes having someone else there who knows the people (and their criminal history) can help ensure that everyone behaves.


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## spike91 (Apr 20, 2011)

With the campus EMS I ride with...
-Potential Substance Abuse
-Potential for violent actions causing the injury (Ie broken/lacerated hands; assault injuries)
-MVAs
-EDPs

Sometimes UPD will stop by to see if we need help moving the patient, etc. They're a great resource and 9/10 the students are cool with their presence, our campus is very fortunate to have an awesome group of cops working with us. 

With the other agencies I ride with, generally MVAs, EDPs, and assaults. Otherwise we have to request to get a presence.


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## Afflixion (Apr 20, 2011)

From when I worked EMS in the county of El Paso, TX SO responded to just about every call, at times it was quite beneficial and others they were more of a hindrance than of assistance. A vast majority of the time it depended on what deputy responded, some were more than willing to help with the more mundane of tasks and others would stand out side their vehicles looking at you. The most beneficial aspect of having LE on scene is in El Paso we have a lot of patients who develop HMS/HP and LE is very good about dealing with them and family members as it is quite contagious. Though in retrospect 90% of the time SO was at the very least not of any issue.


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## HotelCo (Apr 20, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> ok, so in the big city, when do they come, and in the little city when do they come?



Detroit: I've never had them on scene.

Suburbs: Everytime.

The only time I've had PD on scene in Detroit is on the freeway, and that's not DPD, it's the Michigan State Police.


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## MrBrown (Apr 20, 2011)

Generally not no.


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## DrParasite (Apr 20, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> Detroit: I've never had them on scene.


So you go to violent EDPs without PD on scene?  what about shootings/stabbings when the actors are still attacking?  Or assaults in progress?

Our dispatchers are pretty good, when one of these calls come in, we tell them (EMS dispatch tells PD dispatch) to give us a call when they have a unit on scene (and the caller has to wait until the scene is secure for an EMS unit to respond), and once the PD unit arrives on scene, they don't leave until EMS arrives.  if it takes 10 minutes, 30 minutes, or an hour, so be it, PD is trained to handle those types of calls, once they determine it's safe, and only then, will EMS respond.  

Otherwise, it seems like an easy way for EMS to get hurt because PD isn't doing their job.


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## Devilz311 (Apr 20, 2011)

It varies from town to town here. Where I used to work FT BLS, an officer was sent on any ALS call. BLS calls were just us. Where i'm working now, we get an officer on everything.

In another more urban city in our coverage area, we only get PD on domestic-related calls, or psych's.


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## HotelCo (Apr 20, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> So you go to violent EDPs without PD on scene?  what about shootings/stabbings when the actors are still attacking?  Or assaults in progress?



It doesn't get dispatched that way. They come across as just a trauma.


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## DesertMedic66 (Apr 20, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> It doesn't get dispatched that way. They come across as just a trauma.



Yep. We get "unknown medical aid" "unknown type trauma". Highway patrol gets the 9-1-1 call (if from a cell phone). Then Highway Patrol transfers the call to fire. Fire tones out their units and also send the info thru computer to EMS. All the info fire and EMS get is just basically an address or general location, time of the call, call number, and about one word on the call type.


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## DrParasite (Apr 20, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> It doesn't get dispatched that way. They come across as just a trauma.


Damn.... that's scary.... I actually want to know what I'm getting myself into before I walk in the door, especially if I might get hurt as a result of the situation.

But that's just me


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## HotelCo (Apr 20, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> Damn.... that's scary.... *I actually want to know what I'm getting myself into before I walk in the door, especially if I might get hurt as a result of the situation.*



Me too. :unsure:


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## marineman (Apr 20, 2011)

For us it also depends on where. We cover a mix of country and city. First off we use priority dispatching and I know very little about their protocols for level of response but we go ABCDE or O for an invalid assist. For us CDE are emergency responses, we get fire for BCDE and police for DE in the city. E is only if PNB with CPR in progress or actively choking with complete airway blockage. D is a mixed bag depending on what details the caller shares with dispatch. Other than those levels of calls we get police for OD, MVC, Assault or dispatcher discretion if it sounds sketchy.

In the country it's similar but we don't get them for D calls. In the country we get volly first responders on all calls due to our increased response times. 

I could do without them on most calls other than the OD, MVC, Assault or PNB's. They are generally helpful and rarely get in the way but not really necessary and we end up scaring pt's with so many people especially police being on scene. I like them for scene safety, traffic control and they body sit for us waiting for the coroner after we field term a PNB.


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## Aidey (Apr 21, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> Damn.... that's scary.... I actually want to  know what I'm getting myself into before I walk in the door, especially  if I might get hurt as a result of the situation.
> 
> But that's just me



I know someone who was dispatched to a "chest pain" call where the guy had neglected to mention his chest hurt because of the bullet in it.


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## BandageBrigade (Apr 21, 2011)

Generally everything if they are available. Then again we provide the tac medicals for the town pd and sheriffs ert, and share a building with town pd. Never had a problem with it from patients or family. Police are good about leaving if we are asking questions about drugs or the like. They know our trucks layouts and are great at getting/carrying equipment.


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## Bullets (Apr 23, 2011)

my home town, where I do old school pagers and tones, jean/swim suit and t shirt ems its a town if about 30k, we get pd on everything. all the leos are at least MFR and there are minimum 2 trained to EMT-B. they all have defibs and ems bags with all the basic stuff, o2, airway adjuncts, trauma dressings, ect. 

the other town of about 100k we get pd on mva, cpr, reported violent incidents, or if they are in bad sections of town, or on request, out if its late st night and nothing else is happening in town. they ride double and only have defibs


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## wyoskibum (Apr 24, 2011)

On my 911 job, the police are the designated first responders.  Most are EMT-B's with a few EMR.


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## Farmer2DO (Apr 26, 2011)

Bullets said:


> or if they are in bad sections of town



That would be 80% or more of our calls.

We do urban/ghetto EMS in a rough city.  We get police on all psychs, OD, violence of any kind, stabbings, shootings, intox, MVAs, any job where the caller sounded uncooperative, and any call that sounds sketchy, and we stage and wait.  I don't care what's going on, it's not worth our safety.  We probably stage for about 25% of our calls.  While it's not common, we have staged for greater than an hour.  They also go on all cardiac arrests, acute peds calls, and most elderly falls, just to make sure everything is cool, although we don't stage for them.

I don't understand the systems that send their crews blind into unsecured scenes.  I'd have someone's head in a bushel basket and shipped to Siberia if they sent me into a domestic of a shooting without staging us.

We have a good relationship with our police.  They take no crap from anyone, and often our patients are much easier to deal with when there is a cop standing there.  They MHA our patients when we ask them to.  Our new hires get training specific to dealing with the police in orientation, including preservation of the crime scene.


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## Handsome Robb (Apr 26, 2011)

Mostly everything listed above plus anything involving a kiddo.


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## LucidResq (Apr 26, 2011)

Farmer2DO said:


> They also go on all cardiac arrests, acute peds calls, and most elderly falls, just to make sure everything is cool, although we don't stage for them.
> 
> I don't understand the systems that send their crews blind into unsecured scenes.  I'd have someone's head in a bushel basket and shipped to Siberia if they sent me into a domestic of a shooting without staging us.



Just curious, why on elderly falls? 

And in regards to sending heads to Siberia, in defense of dispatch, we don't always know the exact nature ("b**** do your job we need an ambalance" *click* might be a shooting or grandmas toe is swollen), callers lie to us all the time to avoid PD contact and EMS/FD often ignores what we're telling them anyways. 

Although I can't speak to the competency of all dispatchers, all you need to do is see how a comm center reacts to an EMT/ffer/officer down call to know what we think of your safety.  One of my coworkers is still in therapy for a LODD that occurred years ago in part because she felt responsible. Just fyi.


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## Farmer2DO (Apr 26, 2011)

LucidResq said:


> Just curious, why on elderly falls?
> 
> And in regards to sending heads to Siberia, in defense of dispatch, we don't always know the exact nature ("b**** do your job we need an ambalance" *click* might be a shooting or grandmas toe is swollen), callers lie to us all the time to avoid PD contact and EMS/FD often ignores what we're telling them anyways.
> 
> Although I can't speak to the competency of all dispatchers, all you need to do is see how a comm center reacts to an EMT/ffer/officer down call to know what we think of your safety.  One of my coworkers is still in therapy for a LODD that occurred years ago in part because she felt responsible. Just fyi.



I believe there were some cases of elderly abuse a while back that prompted that one.  It's usually a drive by, poke their head in the door, and ask if everything is OK.

As for dispatch, you're absolutely right.  I should have qualified that by saying I'd be angry if we were _knowingly_ sent into an unsafe scene.  It sounds like firefite and HotelCo work in systems that don't value the safety of their EMS responders.  I wouldn't work in a system that sent me into a shooting only coded as a trauma, not bothering to make sure the scene was safe first.  

I have worked with 911 dispatch centers for 7 different counties and 2 commercial EMS agencies, and the best one I've worked with is the current 911 center, bar none.  It is the only answering point for 911 calls for a medium size city (210,000 for the city proper, > 1 million for the city and suburbs) and is the only dispatcher for all police and most fire and EMS.  In Upstate NY, they are the standard against which others are set.  When other counties have their 911 systems go down, their calls get routed here.  Their professionalism and competence is excellent.  Please don't interpret my posts as a problem with dispatch in general; our 911 center, in general, makes my job easier.  They have been directly involved in saving close to a dozen lives that I have also taken part in.  (That's acute stuff:  child birth, cardiac arrests etc, that have had a meaningful recovery.)


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## HotelCo (Apr 26, 2011)

Farmer2DO said:


> As for dispatch, you're absolutely right.  I should have qualified that by saying I'd be angry if we were _knowingly_ sent into an unsafe scene.  It sounds like firefite and HotelCo work in systems that don't value the safety of their EMS responders.  I wouldn't work in a system that sent me into a shooting only coded as a trauma, not bothering to make sure the scene was safe first.



They don't know it's a shooting. I work for a private service, that helps with Detroit's overflow. When Detroit calls our dispatch, they're given that it's a trauma, and the location.


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## Farmer2DO (Apr 26, 2011)

LucidResq said:


> and EMS/FD often ignores what we're telling them anyways.



I forgot to address this line.

While the City FD I work with on a daily basis is overwhelmingly professional and competent (EVERY agency has their exceptions, both personnel and particular days) they also are much more cavalier about entering scenes than we are (commercial service).  There are many that may not be dispatched as a need to stage, but come in as "trouble breathing at the scene of a domestic" and we'll stage 2 blocks away, while we watch the FD go screaming by us and right into the scene.  You knock yourselves out, boys; I'm going home to my family at the end of my shift if I have anything to say about it.  

So, while some may disregard, my agency, and me in particular, pays strong heed to the info that comes from our 911 center.


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## Farmer2DO (Apr 26, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> They don't know it's a shooting. I work for a private service, that helps with Detroit's overflow. When Detroit calls our dispatch, they're given that it's a trauma, and the location.



But someone along the way knows it's a shooting, right?  I also work for a private, for-profit service that has it's own dispatch, and they can only give us the information that they are given.  So, I'm assuming it's Detroit that doesn't send all the information.  If they don't have it, that's fine, they can only do what they can do.  But if they know information that isn't being passed on, that's a really crappy way to treat your field personnel, and a good way to get them killed.


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## DesertMedic66 (Apr 26, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> They don't know it's a shooting. I work for a private service, that helps with Detroit's overflow. When Detroit calls our dispatch, they're given that it's a trauma, and the location.



The dispatchers aren't purposely sending us in. They get all the info that they can (our dispatchers don't talk directly to the people.) I will listen to the fire department scanner and they get toned out as "a fall victim". Then we will sometimes get that "fall victim" as "a man down". It's not the dispatchers fault. They relay all the info they get. If it's reported to us as a shooting then we will stage.


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## LucidResq (Apr 26, 2011)

Farmer2DO said:


> While the City FD I work with on a daily basis is overwhelmingly professional and competent (EVERY agency has their exceptions, both personnel and particular days) they also are much more cavalier about entering scenes than we are (commercial service).



I don't know if it's a coincidence or a result of EMS being used to being a 2-man crew as opposed to a 3 or 4 man crew with access to axes and other tools of destruction  but I've noticed that here too - the EMS folks have both staged when fire went in inappropriately and continued in when fire staged inappropriately, in my humble opinion. 

As far as the loss of information along the 911 caller to 911 calltaker to dispatcher to responder path, I work in a combined center (we have 911 calltakers, PD dispatch, fire dispatch and most of the EMS dispatch all sitting together, and new hires start as calltakers and gradually cross-train to dispatch) and I believe if possible it is the best way to do things. There are a lot fewer miscommunications and delays in response when you are talking to someone on 911, and the person talking to PD is sitting a few feet from you, as is the person sending FD/EMS. 

Even then, we only know what is told to us and even when the caller has the best intentions things can go amiss.

 I had a maintenance guy come to an apt to do some work and find a younger man in bed unconc/blue/apneic.. neighbors described quite the party the night before but nothing suspicious/fights/etc and there were no immediate signs of trauma/blood/etc - seemed like an OD. FD and PD were both on their way as I started to walk the guy through CPR. However when he pulled the covers back he saw multiple GSWs to the chest. It was totally out of the blue.

 I had him abandon that effort and leave the apt right as FD/EMS were pulling up. If that guy hadn't agreed to try CPR, I know there's a good chance FD/EMS would have continued in without PD. You just never know sometimes.


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## HotelCo (Apr 26, 2011)

Farmer2DO said:


> But someone along the way knows it's a shooting, right?  I also work for a private, for-profit service that has it's own dispatch, and they can only give us the information that they are given.  So, I'm assuming it's Detroit that doesn't send all the information.  If they don't have it, that's fine, they can only do what they can do.  But if they know information that isn't being passed on, that's a really crappy way to treat your field personnel, and a good way to get them killed.



All of our dispatchers have previously worked the road. They wouldn't send us on an unsafe scene. When we get calls to some of the other cities we respond to, after the address, they'll tell us if PD is on scene, or not.


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## Segwia (Apr 27, 2011)

LucidResq said:


> I'm just curious... those who say PD respond on most of their calls... do you think this is beneficial? From what I'm reading these are mostly low-population areas. What is the purpose of having PD run on most medical calls? Just wondering if you think this helps patients or not.
> 
> I come from an urban area, where PD resources are stretched to the brink and many of our patients hate cops. It seems like this is a different world from the the smaller rural areas some of you are coming from.



Current small town POV here - PD shows up on almost all calls.  Coincidentlly, most of the calls we get are the ones listed that PDs show up to anyway. Because we're in such a rural area, the PD out here doesn't have the volume or nature of calls that occur in the "real world." That being said, our PD is a huge part of our scene safety regardless.  Ironically, smaller population doesn't = fewer dangerous situations or questionable scenes.  We have a lot of suicides, armed pts under the influence & unknown/man down calls.  So our guys actually help us quite a bit, whether it's checking a scene, being there for the unruly pts or giving an extra hand lifting, things are pretty cooperative out here.


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## blogspoter507 (Apr 27, 2011)

*If police respond*

My department police only show up during the following calls...

1. When there is a MVA 
2. If we call for them (and thats if they are not busy)

My department has been fighting this battle with our PD for a while now. If they aren't going to get to write someone a ticket they don't show up. My EMS cheif was on a call with a man with a gun and it took the cops 20 min to show up...


Its ridiculous


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## Segwia (Jun 8, 2011)

LucidResq said:


> I'm just curious... those who say PD respond on most of their calls... do you think this is beneficial? From what I'm reading these are mostly low-population areas. What is the purpose of having PD run on most medical calls? Just wondering if you think this helps patients or not.
> 
> I come from an urban area, where PD resources are stretched to the brink and many of our patients hate cops. It seems like this is a different world from the the smaller rural areas some of you are coming from.



Being a Volunteer service in rural Utah, our PD lends us the muscle we need if the crew on call needs it & scout the scene out as almost every call out here has an aspect of "strange" attached to it.  Not being a "local" I've also found them helpful since they know most everyone, in providing history & info the pt may not be able to.


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## dstevens58 (Jun 8, 2011)

I belong to a volunteer fire department and any time the local police is on-duty, they roll with us.  I appreciate the extra hands when it comes to bringing someone down from the second floor.  Normally, if they are not needed for law enforcement duties or extra hands, they kind of stay in the background.  Once in a while, you get a ride back to the station if the ambulance is fully-staffed and all of a sudden, you become an extra.


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## feldy (Jun 9, 2011)

We have had issues where we may be dispatched code 3 to a scene the put on a code 4 (stage for PD) but PD was not put out on code 3 but maybe a 2 so we end up staging for like 10-20 mins


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