# Massacre of firefighters in NY ignites debate over EMT, firefighter safety



## DT4EMS (Dec 28, 2012)

Massacre of firefighters in NY ignites debate over EMT, firefighter safety

http://www.ky3.com/news/ky3-massacr...iremen-carrying-guns-20121228,0,6791366.story


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## STXmedic (Dec 28, 2012)

We should be allowed to carry guns. Multiple guns. All kinds of guns.




Guns.


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## DT4EMS (Dec 28, 2012)

PoeticInjustice said:


> We should be allowed to carry guns. Multiple guns. All kinds of guns.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Kinda my point........ anytime we bring up the real issue of safety....... people crack jokes. The joking actually keeps victims of violence from telling their story for fear of being made fun of. It's a culture thing. 

I have hundreds of emails from people sharing their stories of horrific assaults.....life effin changing incidents that they fell embarrassed to tell........


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## VFlutter (Dec 28, 2012)

I still remember the St. Louis shooting quite well. How are you supposed to train for an ambush type attack? I guess you can be better prepared how to handle it once it happens but there isn't much you can do to prevent it.


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## DT4EMS (Dec 28, 2012)

Chase said:


> I still remember the St. Louis shooting quite well. How are you supposed to train for an ambush type attack? I guess you can be better prepared how to handle it once it happens but there isn't much you can do to prevent it.



Actually in Missouri, there were two "ambush" style. One was in KC (MAST Ambulance) Paramedic Mary Seymour was shot after being set up for a fire scene.. I think that was 2004. Then Ryan Hummel (sp) was shot and killed in Maplewood as he exited the truck--also responding to a fire scene.

With the ambush style....... there is not a ton that can be done. Cops and soldiers are killed on ambush style scenes........ and they have tons of training.

However........ this is what I do in class.......

I play the real audio from the ambush calls...... stop the tape and randomly ask participants.... "What do you do?" Quick, HURRY......... your partner is down WHAT DO YOU DO???!!!!

I usually get the response of "Radio for help" or "Drag my partner out of the line of fire"........ I scream. WRONG!!!

The first and most important thing to do is find cover first! Then formulate a plan.

A sniper wants to lure you out to the wounded "partner" so he can effin shoot you too!

So from behind cover, you radio for help, then coordinate efforts to rescue the downed partner.


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## Aidey (Dec 28, 2012)

MAST actually had 3 if you include the killing of a Paramedic and EMT in their ambulance while posted. It was done by the husband, who had discovered the EMT and Medic were having an affair.


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## DT4EMS (Dec 28, 2012)

Aidey said:


> MAST actually had 3 if you include the killing of a Paramedic and EMT in their ambulance while posted. It was done by the husband, who had discovered the EMT and Medic were having an affair.




Yes, thank you. I am familiar with that as well....... it was not the "ambush" style where the fire was set to lure responders, so I don't include it in the ambush topic.

I bring that one up when we talk about one of the 6 D's ...this "D" is the "Domestic"...... the shooting that occurred in the nursing home where several staff members were shot in NC was also due to an affair.


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## DT4EMS (Dec 28, 2012)

And not to hack anyone off.....because I LOVE my EMTLife family...... but sometimes the jokes lead to actions........ because people say things like..... "I'd just whack em with the O2 Bottle" and how they would do this or that...... but then headlines like this appear........


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## Aidey (Dec 29, 2012)

I was thinking of it as an ambush, since they were in a place where they felt safe and generally have an decreased risk of injury when they were attacked.


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## DT4EMS (Dec 29, 2012)

Aidey said:


> I was thinking of it as an ambush, since they were in a place where they felt safe and generally have an decreased risk of injury when they were attacked.



True, by all means. It is just they were not responding to a report of a structure or vehicle fire like the others.

Still tragic nonetheless and nothing has changed safety wise. MAST actually sent a guy down to become an instructor in DT4EMS. He passed with flying colors....... then the FD took over.... and well....... politics are politics......


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## mycrofft (Dec 29, 2012)

*Not to trivialize the larger subject...*

But nice product placement!


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## abckidsmom (Dec 29, 2012)

DT4EMS, what is good cover inside a house?  If you enter a house and then the guy starts shooting, is it better to spend energy looking for cover inside the house or looking for egress?


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## mycrofft (Dec 29, 2012)

Both. Stay at ground level unless there is an unlocked/unlockable second means out of a bsement or second/etc floor. Jumping off a roof doesn't count unless it is unavoidable (oops sorry).

And remember Murphy's Law of combat # 17: Once you make it impossible for the enemy to get in, you have made it impossible to get out.


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## medic417 (Dec 29, 2012)

If you survive the ambush and have taken cover this is when having a firearm would be nice if you are properly educated in it's use.  Otherwise unarmed you are sitting duck with much fewer options if the person decides to come finish the job.  Why be limited?  Prepare for the hand to hand, prepare for using other objects at hand, but also prepare for using lethal force if needed.  And no just because a person carries does not mean they would play John Wayne and stand up and shoot it out.


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## DT4EMS (Dec 29, 2012)

mycrofft said:


> But nice product placement!



You can call it whatever you want. I'm tired of people being injured and hurt on the job, then we go speak somewhere and someone says "We never knew you existed". At least when they see a logo.... they go to the source. Have you seen how much safety information is on our site? FREE?

So check this out..... since you obviously think I have profited so much from this "product" let me set the record straight.......

Because I spend about 12 hours a day working on this stuff.... answering emails, phone calls and such.....I still had to hold down a full-time job. That left little time for a family and it caused a divorce a couple years ago.

Now, after that, I have since left my full-time job and strictly just do this. I do this because of the stories people tell me face to face...... and the emails, the texts and the Facebook messages.... and that I was a victim of violence on the job myself. 

 Not because of the money. You obviously don't know my character or you would never have suggested such a thing.

I would LOVE for this to pay me a salary. To date it has not. You sir, in your infinite wisdom have NEVER seen my presentation....... 

So the next piece....... how the eff have I missed the bigger picture? I have stated there is a lack of training. Train the staff up to the level of an officer in regards to use of force and I will remove my reservations about arming EMS.

But if you mean it is on the ambush style..... DUDE.... we have covered that material is my courses since 1997!!!!!

I don't claim to be an expert in all areas of EMS...... but I am the named/recognized expert in the field of self-defense for EMS.

Now, I publicly invite YOU to Branson Missouri on February 25-26, 2013 to attend my class FREE of charge so you can meet the high level trainers that will be there from all over the country. Then, when you meet the credentialed folks that are spreading our message, see the course in it's entirety I WELCOME YOUR WRITTEN OPINION!

Then your followers here on EMTLife can have your educated, informed opinion.


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## Veneficus (Dec 29, 2012)

mycrofft said:


> Both. Stay at ground level unless there is an unlocked/unlockable second means out of a bsement or second/etc floor. Jumping off a roof doesn't count unless it is unavoidable (oops sorry).
> 
> And remember Murphy's Law of combat # 17: Once you make it impossible for the enemy to get in, you have made it impossible to get out.



To just expand on this a little.

The purpose of going to ground is to present the most minimal target to the shooter. 

DT went over cover and concealment very well, but I would add, concealment is obviously not as good as cover, but it can be better than nothing. If you duck behind something, you can still be shot, but cannot be aimed at. It might seem like a small distinction, but if I had to choose between being shot in the head or somewhere else, I would pick somewhere else. Survival and recovery chances are better.

To answer the question, egress or search?

You always move towards cover, that will likely be outside. Drywall is not cover. A couch is not cover.

Some cover is also finite. It degrades with each hit. 

Some things just to keep in mind.


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## Shishkabob (Dec 29, 2012)

The fallacy of DTs view against allowing legal carry of EMS personnel is that he assumes that there are no consequences of improper use by the user.  If it's deemed that the user should not have used the gun, they'll pay the price.

On top of that, you grossly over-estimate the amount of training, let alone continued training, that the average police officer actually receives on firearms usage, and assume that some CCW/CHL holder doesn't do their part in their own training.



Do you oppose the fact that many responders carry pocket knives with them on the job?  Sure, they'll say it's a 'tool' when asked by the brass, but make no mistake, they (and I) carry it for self defense.   Loophole of carrying weapons on the job.  If I can't have a firearm per company policy, I'll arm myself anyway I can.  I will win the fight.  I don't fight fair, I fight to win.


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## DT4EMS (Dec 29, 2012)

Linuss said:


> The fallacy of DTs view against allowing legal carry of EMS personnel is that he assumes that there are no consequences of improper use by the user.  If it's deemed that the user should not have used the gun, they'll pay the price.
> 
> On top of that, you grossly over-estimate the amount of training, let alone continued training, that the average police officer actually receives on firearms usage, and assume that some CCW/CHL holder doesn't do their part in their own training.
> 
> ...



When  we talk about "average" EMSer........ you and those that practice are not in the average category. 

I ask......  do you train weapon retention? Do you train weapon disarming for if your weapon retention fails?

I teach the TDK, and I will gladly introduce you to many street officers that I have disarmed during training.......... and I am not that good. The average officer has 3-5 tugs on his/her weapon before they understand a weapon retention situation exists.

Again....... we are talking about "as a whole". If you are certified, you train and have addressed the concerns I have....... I remove my reservations.

But again....... you MUST give people options between the use of the firearm and nothing. That is where the hundreds of hours of law enforcement training come in...... it is in the force options......

Again........ we drift from the biggest picture........ if violence against EMS/Fire is not an issue..... why is it people want to carry a gun on the job?

If we stood up together about this issue of the violence as we do about our right to carry we would see real change.


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## DT4EMS (Dec 29, 2012)

Again, I am not anti-arming anyone...... I am against having any tool at the disposal of a person with a duty to act/respond without proper training.

In the images below, this was a simple MVC. Medic was checking out the driver, trooper shows up asks for ID and a weapon retention situation existed without warning.


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## DT4EMS (Dec 29, 2012)

DT4EMS said:


> Again, I am not anti-arming anyone...... I am against having any tool at the disposal of a person with a duty to act/respond without proper training.
> 
> In the images below, this was a simple MVC. Medic was checking out the driver, trooper shows up asks for ID and a weapon retention situation existed without warning.
> 
> ...


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## Veneficus (Dec 29, 2012)

You need to take this info to workman's comp, social security disability, and insurance companies. 

The Golden rule.

"He who has the gold... makes the rules."


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## mycrofft (Dec 29, 2012)

I'd rather see finite resources put into mandatory patient care-related AND SAFETY related training, especially lifting, scene safety, and driving (the by-far number one on the job killer of PEMS).

REFUSE to go into situations where you know there is danger, and leave if it develops.

 Training on those needs to be mandatory. Call it "The Big Boys' and Girls' Pants Class" or something sexy, but the macho has to go.

If you are part of a law enforcement or other customarily armed service designed to go into danger, fine. On the other hand, with the spin down of the Afghan war, just call in the PJ's;  they'll extract anyone from anywhere and will have some time on their hands..





http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...3XnfUKPGOeeujAKd5oA4&ved=0CE8Q9QEwBg&dur=1003


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## DT4EMS (Dec 29, 2012)

mycrofft said:


> i'd rather see finite resources put into mandatory patient care-related and safety related training, especially lifting, scene safety, and driving (the by-far number one on the job killer of pems).
> 
> Refuse to go into situations where you know there is danger, and leave if it develops.
> 
> ...



beautifully put!!!!!!!!!!!


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## mycrofft (Dec 29, 2012)

*I apologize for any offense. None taken.*



DT4EMS said:


> You can call it whatever you want. I'm tired of people being injured and hurt on the job, then we go speak somewhere and someone says "We never knew you existed". At least when they see a logo.... they go to the source. Have you seen how much safety information is on our site? FREE?
> 
> So check this out..... since you obviously think I have profited so much from this "product" let me set the record straight.......
> 
> ...



Noted, and thanks for the invite. Are there any closer to Calif? 

Seriously, all media exposure is good, and everyone wants to be trained for free, so doing and repeating good training is hard.  I hope it gets to be more lucrative and grow, not because you are "in it for the money", but you need to be to some degree. My CPR instruction mentor is about to throw in his towel over insufficient revenues, I have some idea.

By "larger picture" I meant worker's safety. Since I was commenting on the article you cited and it's good publicity (hence "product placement"), not worker safety, I was getting away from the seriousness of the ambush.

http://www.ky3.com/news/ky3-massacre-of-firefighters-in-ny-ignites-debate-over-emts-firemen-carrying-guns-20121228,0,6791366.story

 The media article had good repetition of names and was upbeat about the class. Use of the forum for it has been cleared by the mods and no one else is complaining, so it's kosher. Press on.

PS: as the king of the no-response threads, I'm flattered to read I have a following.


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## DT4EMS (Dec 29, 2012)

mycrofft said:


> Noted, and thanks for the invite. Are there any closer to Calif?
> 
> Seriously, all media exposure is good, and everyone wants to be trained for free, so doing and repeating good training is hard.  I hope it gets to be more lucrative and grow, not because you are "in it for the money", but you need to be to some degree. My CPR instruction mentor is about to throw in his towel over insufficient revenues, I have some idea.
> 
> ...



Denver Paramedic Division runs classes on a regular basis. I will actually be out there again sometime in July. That is as close as we are for the moment. They have made it part of their academy. When I know a date I will PM you.

As far as product placement...... this is simply one of many interviews that have been conducted around the country on our safety movement. It just happened to be me in this one and it was filmed yesterday morning.

We are attacking the issues on multiple levels...... street providers say admin doesn't care, admin state.... we will care when the employees act like they want training. The culture has to change both inside and outside of our field. The average person in the public has no idea the stuff we face.

Let me leave with the absolute best advice on this whole subject........

There is a distinct difference between a patient and an attacker. Too much time is spent on making students worry about "abandonment" that is has providers staying too long on scenes or entering on scenes they should not.

Until there is a fundamental understanding of the shortcomings in training..... there will be no culture change.


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## mycrofft (Dec 29, 2012)

*Don't leave.*

"There is a distinct difference between a patient and an attacker. Too much time is spent on making students worry about "abandonment" that is has providers staying too long on scenes or entering on scenes they should not."

Again, best wording. Had a family friend's son (FD EMS) over-penetrate a mall shooting and get shoed out by LE.

Denver...maybe. I'll check with the Mrs. Mycrofft.


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## Shishkabob (Dec 30, 2012)

mycrofft said:


> REFUSE to go into situations where you know there is danger, and leave if it develops.



Wish some of you would quit spouting that fallacy of a line.  If this most recent incident of 2 deaths isn't proof enough that you can't always just leave, then I don't know what is.


Sometimes you don't have the option to leave.  Sometimes the only option is to fight.  To say otherwise is ignorant of facts, and if that's what you believe, you have NO business telling others they shouldn't be able to do what they deem necessary to protect themselves.



Someones pulls a knife or gun on you while on scene, you're more than welcome to turn your back to them and hope you're faster and get a clean exit.  Me?  I'm going off my training and my instincts.  Could be verbal judo.  Could be taking a life.  Either way, it's me that's coming out on top.


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## mycrofft (Dec 30, 2012)

Linuss said:


> Wish some of you would quit spouting that fallacy of a line.  If this most recent incident of 2 deaths isn't proof enough that you can't always just leave, then I don't know what is.
> 
> 
> Sometimes you don't have the option to leave.  Sometimes the only option is to fight.  To say otherwise is ignorant of facts 1. , and if that's what you believe, you have NO business telling others they shouldn't be able to do what they deem necessary to protect themselves 2. .



Conceivably I could be chased by a pack of feral dogs too.

A proper ambush doesn't present warning or opportunity to leave *or* defend. In fact, the proper tactic to counter a proper ambush is to charge it. These guys didn't even know where the fire was coming from precisely enough to fire back.

1. How many times in the last DECADE have civilian EMS crews in the USA been in the situation they HAD to "fight their way out" (or "in")? If there are any, in how many of those might they elect to proceed or remain because they felt they could conduct an armed response?  

2. If I was the local sheriff, police chief or EMS director I sure would.( As a member of the forum...not so much).  At least in urban and suburban settings, LE I worked with were sick and tired of armed citizens. This is not Somalia or a Brazilian _favella._

OP is talking about being smart, not heeled.


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## VFlutter (Dec 30, 2012)

mycrofft said:


> . This is not Somalia or a Brazilian _favella._



Are you sure about that? Just recently we had a young girl shot point blank in the face by a teenager trying to steal her cellphone. Every weekend there is multiple armed robberies, shootings, muders, etc in my city. Not sure where you are from but some places in this country are getting to that point. 


According to this (stupid) website Saint Louis Missouri is more dangerous than Mogidishu Somalia :blink:

http://urbantitan.com/10-most-dangerous-cities-in-the-world-in-2011/

The data for this is wildly inaccurate


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## bigbaldguy (Dec 30, 2012)

These ambush style killings really prove nothing. There is nothing someone could do to prevent these within the EMS/FF system. There may have been opportunities to prevent these killings and mistakes may well have been made but they probably don't have anything to do with FF/EMS. Mental health resources, corrections, the legal system, probably even neighbors and family all had far more impact on this then anything these poor FFs could have done/carried/worn/or been taught.



How would fighting help in an ambush scenario? That's kind of the point of an ambush, to neutralize your enemies ability to react. Most likely no amount of training or realistic armarment would have saved these guys. Their attacker had the high ground, the element of surprise and a bushmaster assault rifle. Pepper spray, baton, a glock none of this would have altered the situation in this particular situation. Luckily these types of violent encounters are very very rare. 99.99999% (totally made up but I bet it's close) of violent encounters in EMS are preventable by simply not going into a bad situation and when you do go in follow some very basic guidelines, and yes if the situation goes south get the hell out. I can't tell you the number of times I've been on a crew that decided they needed to wrestle with someone because they were drunk or stoned or just plain crazy. Guy starts wigging out and instead of everyone backing away and letting LE deal with it someone decides to put the guy in a headlock then gets popped in the nose by an elbow. Yes it's assault but it's completely preventable. Sure the manly thing to do is put the guy in a headlock but you know what screw manly. Manly is what gets people hurt, personally I'm putting distance between me and them.

Oh and never wrestle a guy with a gun. Unless you're in a completely open field with nowhere to hide for 100s of yards, run. Ever tried to hit something running serpentine? Me either but I bet it's a lot harder than holding on to a gun in a wrestling match just long enough to put a round in a persons gut.


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## mycrofft (Dec 30, 2012)

We recently had a kid shot and killed over losing a fight over a gold cosmetic tooth. But this is not common, despite a big gang problem/culture here, being up to our navels in former state and local inmates and rejects from all over the northern half of CA (and quite a few from SoCal).

And I bet all those handguns were made and sold for the express purpose of escalating a dispute. 

We're 'way past the OP's intent, I'll pipe down.:deadhorse:


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## bigbaldguy (Dec 30, 2012)

Chase said:


> Are you sure about that? Just recently we had a young girl shot point blank in the face by a teenager trying to steal her cellphone. Every weekend there is multiple armed robberies, shootings, muders, etc in my city. Not sure where you are from but some places in this country are getting to that point.
> 
> 
> According to this (stupid) website Saint Louis Missouri is more dangerous than Mogidishu Somalia :blink:
> ...



Overall you're more likely to be assaulted/robbed in any UK country than the US. Last time I checked the US came in around 15 or 16 out of the developed countries for assaults. Also most assaults resulting in serious injury occur among poor minorities. While I know EMS is poorly compensated and there aren't a whole lot of us the truth is we aren't among the major demographic for being shot in the face because someone wants our cell phone  

Has anyone seen a break down of crime statistics by race and socioeconomic class that is current? I remember seeing one years ago and it was pretty startling how once you go above poverty line the chance of being a victim of violent crime drops insanely. I'd love to find a current one but haven't had any luck.


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## bigbaldguy (Dec 30, 2012)

mycrofft said:


> We're 'way past the OP's intent, I'll pipe down.:deadhorse:



oops forgot I was part of the establishment again.

Ok back on topic everybody or no cookies and milk before bed time.


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## mycrofft (Dec 30, 2012)

Yeah we noticed you threw off your disguise again!


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## VFlutter (Dec 30, 2012)

bigbaldguy said:


> the truth is we aren't among the major demographic for being shot in the face because someone wants our cell phone



That actually occurred in a fairly nice business area right down the street from the hospital to a non minority. Not sure what you mean by that statement, All demographics experience violent crime and EMS are the ones responding to them.


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## DrParasite (Dec 30, 2012)

mycrofft said:


> 1. How many times in the last DECADE have civilian EMS crews in the USA been in the situation they HAD to "fight their way out" (or "in")? If there are any, in how many of those might they elect to proceed or remain because they felt they could conduct an armed response?


more often than you would probably believe.  how many times has an EMS crew been in a life threatening situation with an armed assailant?  EDP with a knife, unruly mob trying to tip over the ambulance, shots fired less than 200 ft away, it happens more often than you would probably believe.





mycrofft said:


> 2. If I was the local sheriff, police chief or EMS director I sure would.( As a member of the forum...not so much).  At least in urban and suburban settings, LE I worked with were sick and tired of armed citizens. This is not Somalia or a Brazilian _favella._


no, your right.  this isn't Somalia.  But go down to Camden, Detroit, St. Louis, Newark, Jersey City, South Bronx, Philly, Chester PA, and go into the not-so-nice areas, where everyone has a weapon but the unarmed EMS crews.  shootings daily (or multiple times a day, esp on the summer weekends), violence against everyone, and not enough cops to deal with the crime. Yeah, it's not Somalia, but there are some areas that are as bad or worse.

Remember, a cop doesn't carry a gun to protect you, he (or she) carries a firearm to protect himself from those who would cause him harm.

btw, if someone is shooting at you, typically the best thing to do is put as must distance between you and the shooter as possible.  If you can't do that, than put as much solid stuff between you and the shooter (typically a penetration resistant object). 

BTW, a year and a half ago, a Long Island firefighter was shot while operating at a MVA.  The engine or rescue showed up, and started taking fire, with 1 FF injured.  It happens, probably more often than people would believe.  oh, and any time a fire or ems crew is shot at , the apparatus received bullet holes, or you have confirmed shots fired in the area should be considered a public safety attack with poor shooting.  just because they don't hit anyone, doesn't mean they couldn't.


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## DrParasite (Dec 30, 2012)

*another unarmed fire crew faces gunfire while on a run*

http://www.firehouse.com/news/10846744/alabama-man-opens-fire-on-firefighters-no-one-hurt


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## Shishkabob (Dec 30, 2012)

bigbaldguy said:


> How would fighting help in an ambush scenario?



I suggest reading up on ambushes, then, as fighting is what is needed in an ambush.  The moment you know it's an ambush, you fight hard, you fight aggressive, and you get out of the kill zone.  Sometimes that involves charging the enemy, sometimes that means pulling back.  But you fight.



bigbaldguy said:


> Has anyone seen a break down of crime statistics by race and socioeconomic class that is current?



The majority of shooting homicide victims are black and have a criminal history themselves.


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## mycrofft (Jan 1, 2013)

The majority of firearm homicides are between two people who know each other and a distance under eight feet, according to the deputies I worked with. The supposed it was mostly "black on black" but no statistics; more to the point would be numbers of firearm homicides per capita by (name a demographic); otherwise, some demographics like caucasian males, since numerically so prevalent, would appear to be at greater risk. Also, break it down by victikm versus shooter. Accidental/mistaken shootigs need to be looked at too. (I'm in favor of zip codes or city blocks of occurrence myself).

BTW, recent health care bill had an insertion sponsored by NRA to forbid collection data about firearm use from patients, according to our local paper.


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## Veneficus (Jan 1, 2013)

Interesting along the same lines, most places I worked had mandatory reporting laws for firearm injuries.

Usually the official policy was of course: "We comply with the law to the fullest of our ability."

What really happened is we never reported it to anyone. Not out of laziness, but out of safety. 

"That's the guy who called the cops..." was the mark of Cain. 

It not only increased the chances you were assaulted, it might spur somebody to look for where you live.


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## mycrofft (Jan 1, 2013)

We scrupulousloy reported them all, and the LE made it known they weren't playing. Anything smelling like retribution, loitering, anything was going to be dealt with. No problems. (People brought their GSW and knife lacs to our doc in the box because they thought they wouldn't be reported).


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## Veneficus (Jan 1, 2013)

mycrofft said:


> We scrupulousloy reported them all, and the LE made it known they weren't playing. Anything smelling like retribution, loitering, anything was going to be dealt with. No problems. (People brought their GSW and knife lacs to our doc in the box because they thought they wouldn't be reported).



Must be nice to have that sort of police presence. I had a patient stalk me once and the cops were nowhere to be found.


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## mycrofft (Jan 2, 2013)

I had one follow me home from the jail, 48 miles. Lost him in a subdivision. 

Local sheriff dept back then was able to do stuff like that. Since our local population explosion started around 1985, with fewer officers per capita and many more former inmates and gang members with their families and associates living around here, it got worse.


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