# EMT Challenge CNA in CA?



## MattCA (Feb 22, 2011)

I have been an EMT for a few years and was wondering if there is a way to challenge the CNA cert so I would not have to take the class. I want to because I want to go into nursing plus most of the tech jobs require you to be a CNA now.

Thanks,
Matt


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## medicRob (Feb 22, 2011)

MattCA said:


> I have been an EMT for a few years and was wondering if there is a way to challenge the CNA cert so I would not have to take the class. I want to because I want to go into nursing plus most of the tech jobs require you to be a CNA now.
> 
> Thanks,
> Matt



Apples and oranges. In CNA class you are going to learn things like changing a bed pan, measuring I's and O's, the proper way to make a bed (Yes, there is a specific way), etc.


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## Journey (Feb 22, 2011)

The CNA in California now requires at least 150 hours with 50 - 60 in the classroom and 100 performing the skills in a clinical situation. I believe the checklist has about 108 skills.

http://www.asisvcs.com/publications/pdf/070500.pdf


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## MattCA (Feb 22, 2011)

Thanks for the info. On the booklet it only has 24 skills to be completed, is that true?


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## medicRob (Feb 22, 2011)

MattCA said:


> Thanks for the info. On the booklet it only has 24 skills to be completed, is that true?



Sounds about right. Handwashing, different types of ambulating, I's and O's, dry rounds, turning, oral care, bathing (Bed bath, sitting, shower chair), etc.


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## Journey (Feb 22, 2011)

Here's a sample of the skills from the state website.

http://www.cdph.ca.gov/pubsforms/forms/CtrldForms/hs276a.pdf


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## MattCA (Feb 22, 2011)

Awesome, thank you. Now just need to hopefully find a CNA course in the summer and work part time during it.


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## medicRob (Feb 22, 2011)

MattCA said:


> Awesome, thank you. Now just need to hopefully find a CNA course in the summer and work part time during it.



Look at some local nursing homes, they usually hold CNT courses.


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## Markhk (Feb 22, 2011)

Matt,

California regulations (Title 22) permit US licensed Physicians, Registered
Nurses, Physician Assistants, Vocational Nurses, or Licensed Practical Nurses to challenge the EMT curriculum to get their EMT cert. All approved EMT training programs are supposed to have a challenge program.  

Unfortunately, CNAs don't fall under any of these categories.


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## Journey (Feb 22, 2011)

Markhk said:


> Unfortunately, CNAs don't fall under any of these categories.



Nursing students are usually allowed to challenge the CNA after their first semester of the nursing program. 

Many of the other professions can have "first aid" type training depending on where they work. Even Cub Scouts might get more training then what is in the EMT courses.


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## johnrsemt (Feb 22, 2011)

I agree with the last post:  the only thing new that I learned in EMT-B class over Boy Scouts was Oxygen Admin (at least on the Medical side);  we learned lots of paperwork:  we even learned Backboarding in Scouts from Summer Camp and the Waterfront.


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## rwik123 (Feb 22, 2011)

Journey said:


> Nursing students are usually allowed to challenge the CNA after their first semester of the nursing program.
> 
> Many of the other professions can have "first aid" type training depending on where they work. Even Cub Scouts might get more training then what is in the EMT courses.



Ok....basics may be minimally trained when you compare them to other medical professionals or other countries, but I highly doubt any cub scout troop has more training. That's just an incorrect statement.


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## 8jimi8 (Feb 22, 2011)

MattCA said:


> I have been an EMT for a few years and was wondering if there is a way to challenge the CNA cert so I would not have to take the class. I want to because I want to go into nursing plus most of the tech jobs require you to be a CNA now.
> 
> Thanks,
> Matt



i'd like to challenge how to measure pee and change a bed....


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## Journey (Feb 22, 2011)

rwik123 said:


> Ok....basics may be minimally trained when you compare them to other medical professionals or other countries, but I highly doubt any cub scout troop has more training. That's just an incorrect statement.



Incorrect? Do you have kids in the Scouts?  They are pretty impressive and even put a little more effort into learning the basics more than some who go through EMT school just to get a job on an ambulance. They also seem to have a little more realistic view about patients and helping people than some on this forum who seem to spend more time thinking up pranks or ways to abuse patients they don't want on their ambulance.  I still can't believe putting nitro paste on a door knob and nearly causing someone to pass out got a laugh.


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## Journey (Feb 22, 2011)

8jimi8 said:


> i'd like to challenge how to measure pee and change a bed....



That is just a small fraction of what a CNA does. I don't envy them especially when they might have 15 - 20 patients on an acute med-surg floor or ED and over 30 in a SNF or LTC falicity.  While pee, poop and changing a bed might not be glamorous you must realize patient comfort and bodily functions are just part of the care for the human body. It is not all heroic acts like in the movies or on the daytime soaps.


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## 8jimi8 (Feb 22, 2011)

Journey said:


> That is just a small fraction of what a CNA does. I don't envy them especially when they might have 15 - 20 patients on an acute med-surg floor or ED and over 30 in a SNF or LTC falicity.  While pee, poop and changing a bed might not be glamorous you must realize patient comfort and bodily functions are just part of the care for the human body. It is not all heroic acts like in the movies or on the daytime soaps.





Please, Journey, I know what they do.  I usually work without CNAs, in fact none of our techs are licensed for that matter...  In any case, I know what jobs they do.  I know how important clean lubricated skin is.  Post up some credentials already!


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## Journey (Feb 22, 2011)

> Please, Journey, I know what they do. I usually work without CNAs, in fact none of our techs are licensed for that matter... In any case, I know what jobs they do. I know how important clean lubricated skin is. Post up some credentials already!



Do you feel a need as an RN to add fuel to the flames of belittling CNAs because their job including pee and bed making just to blend on this EMS forum with EMTs and Paramedics?  




8jimi8 said:


> Post up some credentials already!



Why? This is not a closed forum which requires a profession certification or license or even a membership to a organization. There is nothing that I have posted that can not be easily researched. Nothing is even "advanced" in theory or principle that I have covered.  

I bet if this forum was to require proof of some type of medical cert or license, more than half of the posters would disappear. Also, some EMTs will tell you they are in "med school" when in reality they are still contemplating applying for the local community college.


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## JPINFV (Feb 22, 2011)

Journey said:


> I bet if this forum was to require proof of some type of medical cert or license, more than half of the posters would disappear. Also, some EMTs will tell you they are in "med school" when in reality they are still contemplating applying for the local community college.



Um, sweetheart. Some of us are in medical school. Thanks for playing.


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## 8jimi8 (Feb 22, 2011)

Journey said:


> Do you feel a need as an RN to add fuel to the flames of belittling CNAs because their job including pee and bed making just to blend on this EMS forum with EMTs and Paramedics?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You are correct, credentials are not required, but when you come in here and you are posting like someone's mom or sounding otherwise pedantic, i'd like to know why i'm being lectured by someone who hasn't provided at least their education, yet speaks with GRAND AUTHORITY.

Until you post up credentials i can't take you anymore seriously than an internet logical fallacy.  Because until you back up your statements with some training or education, you could be quoting me directly from wikipedia for all i know.

HAD you posted credentials, it would actually make you a good RESOURCE on this website, rather than 

some nitpicker SUPEREGO who is too afraid to back up their statements with a few LMNOPs.

And yes you HAVE posted on advanced theories, just not in this thread.  At this point you are reminding me of someone who used to post here quite a bit... and while personality often created conflict, there were CREDENTIALS to let you know, just who you were talking with... and what body of knowledge their perspectives arrived from.


To all of the CNA's who were hurt by my statements, please forgive my interdnet teasing.  I know, i'm a big meanie.


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## Journey (Feb 22, 2011)

8jimi8 said:


> i'd like to know why i'm being lectured by someone who hasn't provided at least their education, yet speaks with GRAND AUTHORITY.



I posted a  couple of links to California's CNA requirements and you are offended and consider that as speaking with GRAND AUTHORITY? How on earth are you going to make it as a nurse if you get offended by an anonymous forum and by someone who posts on a few threads usually about nursing and hospitals?  However, your name appears on many, many threads about many different things that you claim to be an authority on but don't always post links to the information you are giving out.


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## Journey (Feb 22, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> Um, sweetheart. Some of us are in medical school. Thanks for playing.



Your posts as an EMT about NRB masks sure are convincing of that...?

Not your sweetheart but I'm sure the internet has plenty of people for you to impress.


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## 8jimi8 (Feb 22, 2011)

Journey said:


> I posted a  couple of links to California's CNA requirements and you are offended and consider that as speaking with GRAND AUTHORITY? How on earth are you going to make it as a nurse if you get offended by an anonymous forum and by someone who posts on a few threads usually about nursing and hospitals?  However, your name appears on many, many threads about many different things that you claim to be an authority on but don't always post links to the information you are giving out.



In general the GRAND AUTHORITY comes for your tone and attitude.

Your information is usually correct, I can't think of one thing that You have posted that I felt the need to correct.

HOWEVER.

I am annoyed by ANY person talking down to me, ESPECIALLY when their profile offers no credibility to their statements.  (and yes, your tone is often received with air of superiority... maybe its just the way you type)

I don't know how i'll fare as a nurse, so far a million times better than as a domestic violence hotline advocate.  Try not taking those calls personal...

HOWEVER, my CREDENTIALS are posted for all to see, so that when I say something, they have a basic standpoint from where I arrived at my conclusions.  (AND NOT AT ALL an implication that ANYTHING I say is correct)
Although you will usually find that I am more than willing to learn and admit when I am mistaken.


Are you too afraid of just using the Ventmedic profile?  At least from that standpoint, I know your info has some net worth. 

I'm not going to go and look up things that Journey says, because journey has no CREDIBILITY.


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## usalsfyre (Feb 22, 2011)

My last tech job required EMT or higher, CNA, or being actively enrolled in a nursing program with one semester of clinicals. The only difference in jobs was the nursing students and paramedics could start lines, and the paramedics could triage with a nurse countersigning because we were "trained in assessment"

I didn't find the job particularly difficult. The basic physical task of a CNAs job aren't hard, but do require some education (example, peri care isn't difficult, but is vitally important). For this reason I can't say I think the EMT level should be allowed to out and out challenge the exam.

There are many people at all levels who are wholly unsuitable to care for patients because of attitude. I've seen gads of physicians, ED nurses and even (gasp!) a few RTs who direly need to find a new career...


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## Journey (Feb 22, 2011)

8jimi8 said:


> In general the GRAND AUTHORITY comes for your tone and attitude.



I think you are just overly sensitive if you allow someone who posts a few times with some info, especially with links to government agencies for certs, upset you.  You can accuse me and call me all the names you want but that still does not erase the fact that I posted actual links with the information rather than just bull crapping my way through a post.


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## 8jimi8 (Feb 22, 2011)

Journey said:


> I think you are just overly sensitive if you allow someone who posts a few times with some info, especially with links to government agencies for certs, upset you.  You can accuse me and call me all the names you want but that still does not erase the fact that I posted actual links with the information rather than just bull crapping my way through a post.



If you'll admit who you are,  I'll stop being sensitive.

As one of your actual supporters.  You have to understand how much more effective your messages could be...  I don't know why your posts have this habit of turning into personal warfare.  

I've banged my head against the wall with you in threads before and I actually remember sending you a heartfelt apology because my view on education actually evolved as a result of your postings.
I'm sorry to feel at odds with you again, Vent, this time it IS my sensitivity that has caused the conflict... I wasn't because you posted incorrect information.

Truthfully, I have a huge problem with authority.  A therapist claimed that it stems from having to be "the man" in the house when my father left, in my youth.  ( and let that be a lesson to any deadbeat dad in the room).   

I am extremely annoyed by your continual posting of information as if you are an informed authority, without explaining the details of the origin of your training and education.

But I guess that's my problem.  Although it seems to me that the purpose of communicating is communication and that seems to be a challenge for you as well.


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## reaper (Feb 22, 2011)

Does any of it really matter?

The information is correct and concise. Learn from it and not worry WHO is posting it!


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## 8jimi8 (Feb 23, 2011)

No, Reaper, it doesn't matter and its truly my bad.


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## reaper (Feb 23, 2011)

8jimi8 said:


> No, Reaper, it doesn't matter and its truly my bad.



Wasn't on you man.

I just mean, that who is posting it really should not matter.

I do not care if Jerry the crack head is posting information on COPD, as long as it is correct and can be backed up, more power to him. If it helps someone learn something, it is all good!B)


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## beandip4all (Feb 23, 2011)

reaper said:


> I do not care if *Jerry the crack head* is posting information on COPD, as long as it is correct and can be backed up, more power to him. If it helps someone learn something, it is all good!B)



man what a missed opportunity for a username!!


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## MrBrown (Feb 23, 2011)

Brown wants to know where that missed opportunity for bean dip is .... seriously man, and where is Burritomedic when Brown needs him?

Hablar hungry Brown?


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## MattCA (Feb 23, 2011)

usalsfyre said:


> My last tech job required EMT or higher, CNA, or being actively enrolled in a nursing program with one semester of clinicals. The only difference in jobs was the nursing students and paramedics could start lines, and the paramedics could triage with a nurse countersigning because we were "trained in assessment"
> 
> I didn't find the job particularly difficult. The basic physical task of a CNAs job aren't hard, but do require some education (example, peri care isn't difficult, but is vitally important). For this reason I can't say I think the EMT level should be allowed to out and out challenge the exam.
> 
> There are many people at all levels who are wholly unsuitable to care for patients because of attitude. I've seen gads of physicians, ED nurses and even (gasp!) a few RTs who direly need to find a new career...



There seems like there is on hopital which is a good one that only requires to be an EMT. It seems like a lot more want CNA or associates degree or current enrollment in nursing school now than when I checked a year ago. Well see what happens. I guess I either have to take the course or move on. I really just want to get my foot inside the hospital and gain some hospital experience so I can start moving in the right direction. Haha ya there are some people like that, but I'm not one of them. I hate when I hear about these 19 year olds who are "burnt out" because they have been working there for 6 months. Like I said, I have been an EMT-B for two years and its not a bad job. Guess I will have to see where life takes me.


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## Jon (Feb 23, 2011)

rwik123 said:


> Ok....basics may be minimally trained when you compare them to other medical professionals or other countries, but I highly doubt any cub scout troop has more training. That's just an incorrect statement.



Cub Scout? No. Boy Scouts who have completed First Aid and Emergency Preparedness (and/or Lifesaving) Merit Badges? Yes.

There was VERY little from EMT school that I didn't already know from Boy Scouts. O2 admin was the big thing.

Further - Boy Scouts spend MORE time learning splinting, and are good at IMPROVISING solutions when needed.


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## tao (Feb 23, 2011)

I do not recommend challenging CNA as an EMT.  Most of the skills such as incontinent care and I/O are fairly common sense, but things such as Foley care require a bit more practice.

Also, while placing a patient on a bedpan may be common sense most of the time, what do you do if that patient just had a hip replacement?  Recent amputation?  

You said you wanted to go into nursing one day.  I was a CNA years ago, and in my experience, RN's who were CNA's first were better nurses.  Frankly, the others didn't have a good grasp of basic patient care that CNA's do.

Take the course, you won't regret doing so.


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## Sasha (Feb 24, 2011)

8jimi8 said:


> If you'll admit who you are,  I'll stop being sensitive.
> 
> As one of your actual supporters.  *You have to understand how much more effective your messages could be...  I don't know why your posts have this habit of turning into personal warfare.  *
> I've banged my head against the wall with you in threads before and I actually remember sending you a heartfelt apology because my view on education actually evolved as a result of your postings.
> ...



Actually, his/her messages wouldn't be effective at all, because they'd be gone. The minute Journey goes "I'm Vent!" is the minute the mod team would jump in and ban Journey, even if it was just said in jest.


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## Journey (Feb 24, 2011)

I think that is the whole idea behind making accusations such as claiming someone should be banned. Chances are those who I have had differences of opinion with for just the few posts I have done here  might be over stating their own titles and are afraid there might be someone to come along and challenge them to back up what they have posted. Best to get rid of anyone who could know where to find the actual information instead of just rambling on from what they THINK if might be.  If you are going to state you are an ICU RN or Paramedic, one would expect a little more from those posts and not all the pettiness posted to distract from what they may not know. 

Open forums will always have problems. Closed professional forums are much better since you do know who you are chatting with, where they work and there are not these insecure outbursts with wanting people banned for posting a link that provides information when it goes against what they have posted without verifying if it is right or wrong.  This type of forum can also get people into trouble very easily in "real life". For some it will be with their employer since some have posted their photos and uniform or ambulance on this website so regardless of whatever screen name they use, their identifiers are also on the net.  There are those who have insisted I put up all of my personal information on the internet or have asked for the moderators to give them the email and IP addresses. Maybe the moderators have and maybe they have not.  There really is not much of a guarantee or control over these forums for security.  

For these reasons, I do give the advice which other non-EMS public forums are very adamant about; Do NOT post information you do not want your employers, coworkers, patients or community to see which may not put you or them in a favorable light.  Do NOT put your personal information on the internet. Do NOT give out medical or legal advice especially with your identity and that of your company known. It also doesn't fair well for an internet forum to allow that. 

For credibility, this forum should be closed to the public with an NREMT or some professional license to join. Right now forums like this are just places to openly bash whoever and whatever for ALL to read.  For whatever profession the forum represents it can bring a bad rap for them such as all the threads of patient abuse with shoving NPAs, dropping arms, slamming narcan and dangerous pranks. 

That's all I have to say. From now on I'll stick to the closed forums where you can put your name, title and company in the signature for the right reasons.


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## Aidey (Feb 24, 2011)

Sasha said:


> Actually, his/her messages wouldn't be effective at all, because they'd be gone. The minute Journey goes "I'm Vent!" is the minute the mod team would jump in and ban Journey, even if it was just said in jest.



The vBulletin software used for this forum has the ability to automatically send the mods a message if the same IP address is used for more than one account. The software also has a feature where the mods can easily look up the IP address used to post each post, and see what posts/accounts that IP address is linked to.


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## 8jimi8 (Feb 24, 2011)

Journey said:


> I think that is the whole idea behind making accusations such as claiming someone should be banned. Chances are those who I have had differences of opinion with for just the few posts I have done here  might be over stating their own titles and are afraid there might be someone to come along and challenge them to back up what they have posted. Best to get rid of anyone who could know where to find the actual information instead of just rambling on from what they THINK if might be.  If you are going to state you are an ICU RN or Paramedic, one would expect a little more from those posts and not all the pettiness posted to distract from what they may not know.
> 
> Open forums will always have problems. Closed professional forums are much better since you do know who you are chatting with, where they work and there are not these insecure outbursts with wanting people banned for posting a link that provides information when it goes against what they have posted without verifying if it is right or wrong.  This type of forum can also get people into trouble very easily in "real life". For some it will be with their employer since some have posted their photos and uniform or ambulance on this website so regardless of whatever screen name they use, their identifiers are also on the net.  There are those who have insisted I put up all of my personal information on the internet or have asked for the moderators to give them the email and IP addresses. Maybe the moderators have and maybe they have not.  There really is not much of a guarantee or control over these forums for security.
> 
> ...



Just for the record, I never advocated banning you, I only asked what your credentials are.  Amazing that you respond in such a similar manner to Ventmedic... Picking one detail and responding to that alone as if it explains everything else that you ignore.   Sometimes some small personal attack or misattribution out of the corner of your mouth, while you talk down to everyone around you without having the decency to explain to us all what credibility predicates your sense of entitlement.



Just to fully respond to your post ... I already explained why I'm sensitive, just to remind you.  It's a reaction to your Anonymous soapbox.


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## JPINFV (Feb 24, 2011)

Journey said:


> That's all I have to say. From now on I'll stick to the closed forums where you can put your name, title and company in the signature for the right reasons.


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## Sasha (Feb 24, 2011)

Aidey said:


> The vBulletin software used for this forum has the ability to automatically send the mods a message if the same IP address is used for more than one account. The software also has a feature where the mods can easily look up the IP address used to post each post, and see what posts/accounts that IP address is linked to.



It's really simple to change your IP address


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## Sasha (Feb 24, 2011)

> That's all I have to say. From now on I'll stick to the closed forums where you can put your name, title and company in the signature for the right reasons.



Please don't go. I don't care who you are, if you're Vent or not. You bring a level of information to this forum that was lost with the departure of some of the greatest posters the forum had ever seen. It's part of what drew me back out of lurkerdom.

Don't let posters with big egos chase you away.


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## rwik123 (Feb 24, 2011)

I think it's ridiculous to demand credentials from Journey. Take a minute to look at some of his prior posts..it's certainly clear that he's not some layperson who lives on webMD, spewing facts he doesn't know. He is certainly a contributor of useful knowledge on this board


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## Aidey (Feb 24, 2011)

Sasha said:


> It's really simple to change your IP address



The software also has the ability to block IP proxy sites and whatnot. There are more features to prevent multiple accounts from one person, but I don't want to give away all the secrets and piss off the mods.


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