# Self Defense Instruments



## Canadian (Jun 4, 2014)

Hi all,

How many of you carry self defense instruments? (Batons, knives, cuffs, and even guns/tasers.)

I ask as it is actually legal in a few countries and a few U.S. states.

What are your thoughts?


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## Rin (Jun 4, 2014)

I've modified my stethoscope to double as a spiked flail.  

Most of my coworkers just carry a small folding knife for utility purposes.  I can't imagine anyone pulling one in a fight...it would take too long to tie their left hand to their opponent's and find a radio station playing Michael Jackson's "Beat It."


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## DesertMedic66 (Jun 4, 2014)

I carry a knife on me on and off duty. It's more for utilities than for self defense.


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## Handsome Robb (Jun 4, 2014)

We're not allowed to carry any type of weapon (asp, tazer ect) but we are allowed to carry knives for whatever reason.


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## Canadian (Jun 4, 2014)

Any of of you guys where vests (bulletproof/just extra padded)?  I saw a video recently with FDNY guys wearing what looked like bulletproof vests.


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## Tigger (Jun 4, 2014)

Never worked at a place that allowed self defense type equipment to be carried. A small locker is ok, but someone would likely have words with you if your waltzed in with a big ol' sheath knife. I know people that carry big flashlights on their belt, but that looks like a pain.

I have also worked with people that carried a gun on the ambulance and I was not entirely pleased by that. 

In most places carrying any sort of weapon (and yes a knife is a weapon but let's leave that out) isn't going to be allowed. Boston EMS carries handcuffs but I never saw the need for that either, there's not much that Kerlix and a spitsock can't solve.


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## JPINFV (Jun 4, 2014)

1. Treadmills and seat belts would save more EMS lives than knives or guns. 

2. How are cuffs "defensive weapons"? Do you swing them like nunchucks?


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## DesertMedic66 (Jun 4, 2014)

JPINFV said:


> 1. Treadmills and seat belts would save more EMS lives than knives or guns.
> 
> 2. How are cuffs "defensive weapons"? Do you swing them like nunchucks?



I've seen them used as a sort of "brass knuckles"


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## Handsome Robb (Jun 4, 2014)

Three words...Roll of quarters.

Not only could you pack you fist you can buy snacks too!

:rofl:


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## Merck (Jun 4, 2014)

I carry a little something I call, "Not being a d-bag at work".

100% effective so far....


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## UnkiEMT (Jun 4, 2014)

I'll largely agree with Merck, but I'll note that when I was working as a security guard in a BAD part of town, I successfully used my clipboard (The same one I carry now) as both a defensive shield and as an offensive weapon. You could probably do the same with a toughbook...but unlike my clipboard, it probably wouldn't still work as a toughbook after.


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## socalmedic (Jun 4, 2014)

UnkiEMT said:


> You could probably do the same with a toughbook...but unlike my clipboard, it probably wouldn't still work as a toughbook after.



it will work... those things can take a beating better than my last partner.


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## joshrunkle35 (Jun 4, 2014)

I've carried a gun every day for 10 years, yet, if I go into work as a paramedic, somehow people assume that I would somehow be a liability if I carried a gun. 

I would love to be able to defend myself. I wish real life were like television where if you mind your own business and comply with bad guys, everything is ok. Unfortunately, a lot of people like Tom Givens or Claude Werner (former LEO/FBI guys) who are actually doing massive work breaking down the DOJ statistics are concluding that resistance rather than compliance with crime has higher survival rates. 

Real life is not tv. People on tv walk up and give you a choice to hand over your drug box and then if you do, they leave you alone. In real life, criminals don't like witnesses. Even if you comply, you may still get injured or killed. I shouldn't have to jeopardize my own safety in order to help others.


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## cprted (Jun 4, 2014)

If you're interested in carrying batons, tasers, wearing kevlar vests, this is the agency you should be looking at ...



Merck said:


> I carry a little something I call, "Not being a d-bag at work".
> 
> 100% effective so far....



Same here


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## jzero652 (Jun 4, 2014)

Canadian said:


> Any of of you guys where vests (bulletproof/just extra padded)?  I saw a video recently with FDNY guys wearing what looked like bulletproof vests.



My son is an FDNY EMT. He was shot at twice so I bought him a bulletproof vest.


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## Canadian (Jun 4, 2014)

cprted said:


> If you're interested in carrying batons, tasers, wearing kevlar vests, this is the agency you should be looking at ...
> 
> Haha good one.  Do you work for BCAS?


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## cprted (Jun 4, 2014)

Canadian said:


> cprted said:
> 
> 
> > If you're interested in carrying batons, tasers, wearing kevlar vests, this is the agency you should be looking at ...
> ...



Yes.

These guys are pretty good too.  http://vancouver.ca/police/recruiting/police-officers/index.html


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## Canadian (Jun 4, 2014)

cprted said:


> Yes.
> 
> These guys are pretty good too.  http://vancouver.ca/police/recruiting/police-officers/index.html



Nice!  Just curious, did you do your training through the Justice Institute?  If not, where?


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## cprted (Jun 4, 2014)

Canadian said:


> Nice!  Just curious, did you do your training through the Justice Institute?  If not, where?



JI.  Feel free to send a PM.  I'm not really going to post my biography on the forum.


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## epipusher (Jun 4, 2014)

I can carry around a pair of ballet shoes for 10 years, doesn't make me an expert.


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## joshrunkle35 (Jun 4, 2014)

epipusher said:


> I can carry around a pair of ballet shoes for 10 years, doesn't make me an expert.




Well, I am a full time firearms instructor, try to take a class every month, and shoot 3-5 days a week. I have taken many courses from several famous instructors like Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, Todd Green, Rob Pincus, etc. I am an expert. However, police are nowhere near experts, they typically get around 60 hours of training in an academy, and usually take about 12-30 hours of training a year, sometimes less, yet they carry a gun every day, hence the importance I am placing on the practice of having gone a period of time without accidents or incidents being a good indicator of who should be allowed to carry a weapon for self defense.


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## Rialaigh (Jun 4, 2014)

joshrunkle35 said:


> Well, I am a full time firearms instructor, try to take a class every month, and shoot 3-5 days a week. I have taken many courses from several famous instructors like Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, Todd Green, Rob Pincus, etc. I am an expert. However, police are nowhere near experts, they typically get around 60 hours of training in an academy, and usually take about 12-30 hours of training a year, sometimes less, yet they carry a gun every day, hence the importance I am placing on the practice of having gone a period of time without accidents or incidents being a good indicator of who should be allowed to carry a weapon for self defense.



As an expert I am sure you are familiar with the studies and experiments showing how effective guns are with an attacker of any kind within 10-15 feet of you...for those who don't know, they are flat out ineffective. 

I don't care who you are, putting a gun in the back of an ambulance with unstable, altered, and combative people is a flat out bad idea, I don't care how well trained you are.


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## joshrunkle35 (Jun 5, 2014)

Rialaigh said:


> As an expert I am sure you are familiar with the studies and experiments showing how effective guns are with an attacker of any kind within 10-15 feet of you...for those who don't know, they are flat out ineffective.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't care who you are, putting a gun in the back of an ambulance with unstable, altered, and combative people is a flat out bad idea, I don't care how well trained you are.




If you are referencing things like the Tueller drill, they have been disproven.


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## Rialaigh (Jun 5, 2014)

joshrunkle35 said:


> If you are referencing things like the Tueller drill, they have been disproven.



Not specifically referencing that but at 10 feet, I don't care how good you are, most in shape people could have stabbed you, probably multiple times, prior to you firing a shot or getting it drawn. Let alone putting a gun less than 3 ft away from a patient in a metal box where your focus should be patient care. 


Back to the original topic, some at our service carry plastic zip ties, we have actually used them some prior to PD arriving. My biggest defensive is not putting myself in poor situations, my second biggest is always...always having numbers on my side whether its rescue squad, fire, pd, or by standers (family, friends)...always have at least a 5-1 prior to willingly entering a confrontation.


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## joshrunkle35 (Jun 5, 2014)

Rialaigh said:


> Not specifically referencing that but at 10 feet, I don't care how good you are, most in shape people could have stabbed you, probably multiple times, prior to you firing a shot or getting it drawn. Let alone putting a gun less than 3 ft away from a patient in a metal box where your focus should be patient care.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If you carry a gun, you should carry it on your person, not in a box.


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## NomadicMedic (Jun 5, 2014)

joshrunkle35 said:


> If you carry a gun, you should carry it on your person, not in a box.




He meant in the ambulance...


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## joshrunkle35 (Jun 5, 2014)

DEmedic said:


> He meant in the ambulance...




Got it. Sorry, I thought he was referencing storage in a drug box. 

Either way, if I was concealing the firearm, how would anyone including the patient know? If I illegally concealed one, how would anyone know? My honor and respect for the law is the only thing that stops me, not the situation at hand.


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## Chewy20 (Jun 5, 2014)

I guarantee you I would be able to get off a center mass shot if a person was running at me 15 feet and in if I noticed him coming. Even if someone with not as much time behind a handgun was not able to get a shot off, there are other methods of taking away a knife, and then drawing your weapon if need be. Some agencies like Boston EMS are given handcuffs and bullet proof vests for a reason. Believe it or not people like to think we are cops for some reason or don't want us around their "drug houses" and will do what they want to keep you away. Heck, at my private company in small town MA last year a BLS crew was running a call on a woman for a "fall" and once they showed up realized she was shot, her husband came around the corner with a shotgun and took shots at the EMT's. Just because you can take the necessary steps to stay out of those situations, the example I just gave you shows that its all about being in the wrong place at the right time. 

Do I carry at work? No I am not allowed, but you better believe I would like too.


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## vcuemt (Jun 5, 2014)

I've never really understood this obsession some folks in EMS have with "being prepared" for getting attacked. To be fair I don't ride in Compton or downtown Detroit but I've only had one combative patient and the two of us in the back were able to easily soft-restrain them for the ride to the hospital. I had a guy in my agency who always used to talk about "being prepared," carried a knife specifically for self-defense, the works... and all I could do was roll my eyes. Ditto this entire discussion about guns. If you ever need a gun on-duty, then you've forgotten the first thing you said when you walked in to your NREMT practicals... "scene safe."


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## MonkeyArrow (Jun 5, 2014)

On a note about bulletproof vests, do you wear them every day. A suburban fire agency a county away from me is buying bulletproof vests and trauma kits for a MCI situation, but it's in their protocol to only wear it when walking into a suspected "hot" situation. According to the captain, he said it is to help augment the trauma protocol and help firefighters/medics go in with police in an active shooter situation referring to Sandy Hook. What's the point of spending 350K on vests if you're never going to wear them. 

P.S. This is the same department that got four of their members held as hostages last year by a man getting foreclosed. The call came in as a medical emergency. By the captain's own admission, the vests wouldn't have helped them in that situation since they wouldn't be on. 

http://www.ajc.com/videos/news/bullet-proof-vests-coming-for-gwinnett-rescue/vCcx3B/


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## epipusher (Jun 6, 2014)

Give these EMT's guns and we will have to find a stronger word than `whacker.' Wannabe will suffice for now.


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## gw812 (Jun 6, 2014)

Self-defense tool? Use a 1000ml bag as a sap. 

-said to triage nurse- "No, I don't know how the patient became soaked and slightly salty..."


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## UnkiEMT (Jun 6, 2014)

gw812 said:


> Self-defense tool? Use a 1000ml bag as a sap.



"Applied topical O2"


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## Tigger (Jun 6, 2014)

MonkeyArrow said:


> On a note about bulletproof vests, do you wear them every day. A suburban fire agency a county away from me is buying bulletproof vests and trauma kits for a MCI situation, but it's in their protocol to only wear it when walking into a suspected "hot" situation. According to the captain, he said it is to help augment the trauma protocol and help firefighters/medics go in with police in an active shooter situation referring to Sandy Hook. What's the point of spending 350K on vests if you're never going to wear them.
> 
> P.S. This is the same department that got four of their members held as hostages last year by a man getting foreclosed. The call came in as a medical emergency. By the captain's own admission, the vests wouldn't have helped them in that situation since they wouldn't be on.



Those are two entirely different scenarios. Buying additional PPE to be worn during warm zone operations serves an entirely different purpose than buying one for everyday use. 



Chewy20 said:


> Heck, at my private company in small town MA last year a BLS crew was running a call on a woman for a "fall" and once they showed up realized she was shot, her husband came around the corner with a shotgun and took shots at the EMT's.



Where the heck was that?


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## joshrunkle35 (Jun 6, 2014)

epipusher said:


> Give these EMT's guns and we will have to find a stronger word than `whacker.' Wannabe will suffice for now.




Do you have some reasoning or statistics to back this up?

This is what has been said every time when states have gone to concealed carry, yet violent crime rates have gone down, shootings have gone down and firearms accidents have gone down.

And just because someone doesn't want to wait 8 minutes for the police when they are actively being assaulted doesn't mean that their motivation is that they "wannabe" like the police. 

I would be perfectly content to be allowed to carry a firearm concealed, and no patient or anyone at the station would ever know that I had a gun.


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## Chewy20 (Jun 6, 2014)

Middleborough. Sorry not the husband, a man that was staying with them in the house. I was covering that town that night, but was released back to the Plymouth base. 

here's the link if interested.

http://www.heraldnews.com/article/20130713/News/307139937#


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## DrParasite (Jun 8, 2014)

Rialaigh said:


> I don't care who you are, putting a gun in the back of an ambulance with unstable, altered, and combative people is a flat out bad idea, I don't care how well trained you are.


And yet, cops routinely carry their sidearm (and probably their backup gun) when they transport with us in the back of the truck.





			
				Chewy20;535401Some agencies like Boston EMS are given handcuffs and bullet proof vests for a reason.[/quote said:
			
		

> Do any other agencies in Mass issue handcuffs?  or was boston given a waiver by the proper AHJ to use the cuffs on EDPs and drunks who needed to go to the hospital against their will?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Chewy20 (Jun 8, 2014)

Boston EMS is the only place I know of that issues actual cuffs (Worcester might). They are used, and used often. I know BEMS is apart of the same union BPD is so that may have had something to do with it when they were first introduced. 

If you are against cuffs, come to Boston and try and get on a ride along. You will soon understand they help a lot. As I am sure a lot of other cities that use them benefit as well.

Me? I've never had problems with soft restraints, but if you give me cuffs I'll use em!


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## johnrsemt (Jun 9, 2014)

I did a ride a long in Detroit about 15 years ago;  when I got in the ambulance (back) they told me my vest was hanging over the airway chair.  When I realized what type of vest it was I asked if I needed it;  they pointed out 2 bullet holes in the side door, with corresponding holes in the other side.  Told me that they were driving down a street a week earlier and someone shot at them as they drove by

They were the 3rd truck in line to get bullet holes fixed.

Some areas need extra protection.

Me in Indiana, I just used heavy metal clipboards, and my mouth.  E size O2 tank once.


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## NomadicMedic (Jun 9, 2014)

I wonder if people go to gun forums and talk about paramedicine?


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## Smash (Jun 9, 2014)

DEmedic said:


> I wonder if people go to gun forums and talk about paramedicine?



I have no doubt that EMS folk from the rest of the world read these threads with no small measure of both bewilderment and despair.


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## UnkiEMT (Jun 9, 2014)

DEmedic said:


> I wonder if people go to gun forums and talk about paramedicine?



Well, now that you say that, I think we have to.

We should find a gun forum that has an off-topic section, then get 5 or so people to go register accounts over there and have an argument about some tired and worn out point...going straight from B to P, maybe?


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## UnkiEMT (Jun 9, 2014)

Smash said:


> I have no doubt that EMS folk from the rest of the world read these threads with no small measure of both bewilderment and despair.



We're not their first exposure to 'muricans, they're used to it.


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## Leatherpuke (Jun 9, 2014)

UnkiEMT said:


> Well, now that you say that, I think we have to.
> 
> We should find a gun forum that has an off-topic section, then get 5 or so people to go register accounts over there and have an argument about some tired and worn out point...going straight from B to P, maybe?



 I spend a great deal of time on one of the biggest gun forums on the internet. We have a sub-forum dedicated to EMS/Fire/LEO. 

 Bottom line, putting on an EMS uniform does not magically make you impervious to injury or assault. ALL people have the inherent right to self defense. 

 When I am ruler of the Earth, it will be mandatory that all able bodied adults be armed at all times, no exceptions. Crime will be a distant memory and BBQ's will be alot more fun.


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## Chewy20 (Jun 9, 2014)

leatherpuke said:


> i spend a great deal of time on one of the biggest gun forums on the internet. We have a sub-forum dedicated to ems/fire/leo.
> 
> Bottom line, putting on an ems uniform does not magically make you impervious to injury or assault. All people have the inherent right to self defense.
> 
> When i am ruler of the earth, it will be mandatory that all able bodied adults be armed at all times, no exceptions. Crime will be a distant memory and bbq's will be alot more fun.



cheers


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## Meursault (Jun 10, 2014)

DEmedic said:


> I wonder if people go to gun forums and talk about paramedicine?



Yes, actually. The preppers are really bad about that, but at least one other gun community has semiregular "EMS story" threads. Which are promptly derailed by this exact meta argument.



Chewy20 said:


> Boston EMS is the only place I know of that issues actual cuffs (Worcester might). They are used, and used often.


I wonder how much of that is the (apparent) lack of good medical restraints. But you can't walk people into triage with those on.
I have needed to have patients cuffed before, but I don't see the point in carrying cuffs. If I need to go with metal restraints over soft, I need extra hands.


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## Chewy20 (Jun 10, 2014)

It is just an extra form of security for them. They deal with a lot of druggies that sometimes like to be combative. If they don't have the extra manpower right away it is a heck of a lot easier to apply cuffs rather than trying to tie soft restraints on a combative patient. BEMS is a top agency in the country, I will leave it to them to decide if its working for them or not.


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## Handsome Robb (Jun 10, 2014)

Chewy20 said:


> It is just an extra form of security for them. They deal with a lot of druggies that sometimes like to be combative. If they don't have the extra manpower right away it is a heck of a lot easier to apply cuffs rather than trying to tie soft restraints on a combative patient. BEMS is a top agency in the country, I will leave it to them to decide if its working for them or not.



:lol:


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## hitman196 (Jun 11, 2014)

I carry a rescue knife on and off duty.
My department does not allow anything for self defence or offense period.


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## Tigger (Jun 11, 2014)

Chewy20 said:


> It is just an extra form of security for them. They deal with a lot of druggies that sometimes like to be combative. If they don't have the extra manpower right away it is a heck of a lot easier to apply cuffs rather than trying to tie soft restraints on a combative patient. BEMS is a top agency in the country, I will leave it to them to decide if its working for them or not.



Yet somehow nearly every EMS agency makes due without them...


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## usalsfyre (Jun 11, 2014)

Tigger said:


> Yet somehow nearly every EMS agency makes due without them...



Ketamine. Ketamine works better than cuffs.


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## NomadicMedic (Jun 11, 2014)

hitman196 said:


> I carry a rescue knife on and off duty.
> 
> My department does not allow anything for self defence or offense period.




And that keeps you safe? What are you going to do if someone attacks you? Ask him to stand still while you cut his clothes off?


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## Tigger (Jun 11, 2014)

usalsfyre said:


> Ketamine. Ketamine works better than cuffs.



Most variety of chemical restraint would work better than not-so-often applied handcuffs for an ostensibly medical use. 

Too bad that when I was last in Massachusetts there was no standing orders for chemical restraint.


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## DrParasite (Jun 12, 2014)

Tigger said:


> Yet somehow nearly every EMS agency makes due without them...


poor excuse.... so because nearly every agency doesn't issue stab or bullet proof vests, your agency shouidn't?

or because not every agency RSIs people, and hasn't RSIed in years your agency shouldn't?

Maybe Boston is just ahead of the rest of the world, and in 20 years, handcuffs will be standard issue and everyone will think "wow, those BEMS were really progressvie when compared to the rest of the county, they did this 20 years before we did!"

Most agencies don't issue CO monitors to their EMS crews (so if they want into a sickness and find readings of this colorless and odor less gas, they have an inkling why), so by your logic, they aren't needed, yet there have been documented cases where having those CO monitors saved the lives of both the victims and the crews, because they weren't exposed to CO, and were able to evacuate the building and call the FD to properly mitigate the emergency.  

In general, just because a minority is ahead of the rest of the world, doesn't mean following their lead isn't a good idea, and saying "well we never needed them before, so you having them is stupid" is thinking that will take us back to the stone ages and the horseless ambulance days.


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## Carlos Danger (Jun 12, 2014)

DrParasite said:


> Maybe Boston is just ahead of the rest of the world, and in 20 years, handcuffs will be standard issue and everyone will think "wow, those BEMS were really progressvie when compared to the rest of the county, they did this 20 years before we did!"



Yeah, I highly doubt that.....


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## NomadicMedic (Jun 12, 2014)

I think comparing CO monitors and handcuffs is the epitome of apples and oranges. 

This is an argument that has no winners. I don't believe in guns for EMS professionals. I don't believe in handcuffs for EMS professionals. Others do. No matter how much you posture and stomp your feet, you'll never convince me that EMS professionals should carry firearms. Sorry.


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## UnkiEMT (Jun 12, 2014)

I think more to the point is one of the core concepts of EMS: "If you've seen one EMS system, you've seen one EMS system.". What works and is appropriate for BEMS doesn't have anything to do with anything as far as other systems.

There is, of course, a huge tradeoff to be had with carrying handcuffs. On one side, there are patients it'd be nice to have as close as practicable to an absolute restraint on. The flip side is that it then blurs the line in patient's perception between us and cops, a distinction we rely heavily on to do our jobs. Our patients have to trust us, to let us poke holes in them and fill them with drugs, to answer us honestly when we ask if they've taken anything, and indeed, to not get aggressive with us in the first place. Unfortunately, as much as in infuriates me, people don't trust cops the way they trust us.

I would worry heavily about that before I did anything to marginalize that distinction. Since I assume that the leadership of BEMS aren't morons, I'm guessing they did, too. They obviously decided that in the balance of concerns, handcuffs were worth the trade-off.

Doesn't mean it applies elsewhere, and it certainly isn't a step that should be taken lightly.


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## OnceAnEMT (Jun 12, 2014)

Unki brings up a very good point about how the simple fact that we don't openly carry any weapons or restraining devices on our person means we may not be the good guy to the patient, but we aren't the bad guys (cops). There are many times even in the ED where we get a patient brought in by PD with a true medical complaint, and we get PD to briefly step out for the sake of gaining accurate information.

Even on SAR we are told "don't ask don't tell" about weapons, but its subtly discouraged. Naturally most of us carry knives, but there are a few who conceal carry a pistol. The last thing a despondent wants to see is someone who looks like a police officer.

I guess I am confused why there is so much argument towards needing a self-defense "instrument". My suggestion is use your brain as that instrument. You think this Pt might try something funny in the ambulance? Have PD or Fire ride in the back. 99% of the time they are there for you anyway. Did someone jump you while on scene? If you're not trained to deal with it by hand, I assure you there will be no change in the outcome if you have a weapon, and a worse outcome if they see that fact. PD is your friend, though it sometimes doesn't seem like it 

Quick note about body armor. Protocols usually pretty clearly state that PD must secure an unsecure scene before you can do your thing. It seems a bit hypocritical for an agency to blow money on kevlar if you are not even supposed to be on scene in the first place. "Stage around the corner" isn't a joke.


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## joshrunkle35 (Jun 12, 2014)

DEmedic said:


> I think comparing CO monitors and handcuffs is the epitome of apples and oranges.
> 
> This is an argument that has no winners. I don't believe in guns for EMS professionals. I don't believe in handcuffs for EMS professionals. Others do. No matter how much you posture and stomp your feet, you'll never convince me that EMS professionals should carry firearms. Sorry.




It's an emotional issue for people on both sides. It's an issue like abortion. You could give true facts and statistics all day long and people won't change their opinion. They will change their opinion when confronted with an emotional moment, however.


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## Tigger (Jun 12, 2014)

DrParasite said:


> poor excuse.... so because nearly every agency doesn't issue stab or bullet proof vests, your agency shouidn't?
> 
> or because not every agency RSIs people, and hasn't RSIed in years your agency shouldn't?
> 
> ...



Wow. You're hyperbolic argument "strategies" are alive and well. 

There is no replacement for CO monitors. More than a few agencies issue them (and we will too next winter). 

On the other hand there are many replacements for handcuffs that are much less dangerous. And as far as I can tell there are no other EMS agencies that are not police based that allow this practice. 

It is more than possible that the reason that some practices are not implemented by more agencies is that the practice is stupid, outdated, or useless. 

Being unique does not make you progressive.


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## Tigger (Jun 12, 2014)

UnkiEMT said:


> *I think more to the point is one of the core concepts of EMS: "If you've seen one EMS system, you've seen one EMS system.". What works and is appropriate for BEMS doesn't have anything to do with anything as far as other systems.*
> 
> There is, of course, a huge tradeoff to be had with carrying handcuffs. On one side, there are patients it'd be nice to have as close as practicable to an absolute restraint on. The flip side is that it then blurs the line in patient's perception between us and cops, a distinction we rely heavily on to do our jobs. Our patients have to trust us, to let us poke holes in them and fill them with drugs, to answer us honestly when we ask if they've taken anything, and indeed, to not get aggressive with us in the first place. Unfortunately, as much as in infuriates me, people don't trust cops the way they trust us.
> 
> ...



I appreciate this mindset. I love to look at how and why certain systems operate the way they do. That said, there are certain parallels that can be drawn across the board. Boston is a big-city urban EMS system. There are plenty other cities like Boston. I think it is certainly viable to draw comparisons to similar systems in similar areas so long as everyone is clear that the comparison will not be perfect.


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## samiam (Jun 15, 2014)

etomidate and rocuronium

or overhead page "Security to Room 4" 

Gets four huge guys with guns to come running!

Its Important to say "Security" Like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZkdcYlOn5M

1:25


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## firecoins (Jun 16, 2014)

I carry a saxophone for self defense


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## Chewy20 (Jun 17, 2014)

firecoins said:


> I carry a saxophone for self defense



Just start playing and they run?:rofl:


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## DesertMedic66 (Jun 17, 2014)

firecoins said:


> I carry a saxophone for self defense



Is this you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm8dGPVugMc


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## rwclamp (Jun 17, 2014)

usalsfyre said:


> ketamine. Ketamine works better than cuffs.


amen


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## DrParasite (Jun 17, 2014)

Tigger said:


> Wow. You're hyperbolic argument "strategies" are alive and well.


no.... you have what we call "a flaw in your logic."  your logic is "well, because no one else has them, neither should should agency X" or "because we have always done it this way, there is no need ot change."  your logic is faulty, I am just using other examples of how your logic is faulty.  

And it's still faulty logic, no hyperbolic argument needed (that would be me saying we should give guns to all EMTs, because it would make them safer, and no, I'm not advocating that), regardless of what you say.





Tigger said:


> There is no replacement for CO monitors. More than a few agencies issue them (and we will too next winter).


maybe by you, but they are still in the minority by me.  hopefully that will change in the future.





Tigger said:


> On the other hand there are many replacements for handcuffs that are much less dangerous. And as far as I can tell there are no other EMS agencies that are not police based that allow this practice.
> 
> It is more than possible that the reason that some practices are not implemented by more agencies is that the practice is stupid, outdated, or useless.
> 
> Being unique does not make you progressive.


Please explain how they are dangerous.  I mean, if you can train a cop, you can train an EMT, and I have to think that BEMS staff are trained in how to use handcuffs.

Years ago, providers at my agency stopped backboarding penetrating trauma victims, and stopped strapping everyone involved in an MVA to a LSB.  back then, it was considered sacrilegious to do that, and they were one of the few big city departments to do it.  now it's progressive.

Just because YOU don't think it's right, or because you don't do it where you work, doesn't make it wrong.


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## GaMedic (Jun 20, 2014)

I will say this, out of the 2 EMS services I currently work for. One has standing orders for chemical restraints. The other does not even have the medications to do so let alone permission to do so. I can count on one hand the number of times I have seen soft restraints broken. It happens but it generally takes a pt that is jacked up on bath salts or something synthetic. I have used an officer to ride in the back with me on one of those special pts, said officer caused my partner to lose a tooth as it was knocked out trying to prevent the patient from killing everybody in the truck. The pt managed to get the officers gun out of the holster. The end result was the patient being physically choked out and I will never allow another LEO in my truck armed.. To each his own but an exposed firearm in the box is a disaster waiting to happen.

I wish they would make it a requirement that EMS professionals have the right to chemically restrain a pt when the safety of the patient or crew is at hand. It's safer for the patient and the transporting crew but sadly some services here in Ga are so against any form of chemical restraints, its just not going to happen...


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## WuLabsWuTecH (Jun 21, 2014)

I'm at a more urban department and a more rural department.

On the urban department, we carry ballistic vests on the truck and are required to wear them on any sort of violent scene.  The ones off the top of my head are for the dispatch codes of: injury from an assault, attempt (no matter what means), shooting, stabbing.  "Unknown emergency" is a toss up and just depends on what the LT says.  Basically, if you are staging for safety reasons, you should be putting one on.  But just because of the area we are in, we generally stage if we're not sure on something.

At, the rural department I'm on, staging is somewhat of a foreign concept.  It's getting better though.  Those of us on city departments where it's the norm used to get made fun of a lot for staging, especially since it can take 30-40 minutes to get a deputy on scene or longer depending on how far out we are.  That's starting to change after a few incidents.  I've had a couple of chiefs on mutual aid departments who chewed me and others out on the radio for staging and one that "threatened" to call the third due agency to see if they had a transport truck if we weren't going to go in on a scene where the shooter's car was still on scene and they had no idea where the shooter was.

Fortunately, our chief has always told us that if we choose to stage, for whatever reason, he'll always back us up on it, no questions asked.


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