# Good news for EMS regarding accreditation



## TransportJockey (Oct 19, 2010)

http://myemail.constantcontact.com/...ation.html?soid=1103098668638&aid=fgAwVZZ33_0
The NASEMSO voted that they are going to support the new requirement by NREMT to require all medic schools to be accredited. Hopefully this might help bring an end to the medic mills out there


----------



## tcripp (Oct 19, 2010)

I, personally, am excited at the prospect.


----------



## medic417 (Oct 19, 2010)

Whats funny is that many of the schools that are considered mills have already gotten accredited or are in the process.  It is not extremely difficult and only costs a few thousand dollars.  Not a bad investment to keep the want a be hero's coming.


----------



## MrBrown (Oct 19, 2010)

These sorts of debates are not good for Brown's blood pressure and cellular metabolisim.

Therefore, I will sit this one out.

*Brown goes to the corner and plays with his toy helicopter


----------



## TransportJockey (Oct 19, 2010)

medic417 said:


> Whats funny is that many of the schools that are considered mills have already gotten accredited or are in the process.  It is not extremely difficult and only costs a few thousand dollars.  Not a bad investment to keep the want a be hero's coming.



I guess I overlooked that little fact  Damn. I guess it'd be too much to ask that more states do like OR did for their medic certification? To me requiring an AAS is the least we should expect for medics. I was hoping this might help get to that goal eventually


----------



## medic417 (Oct 20, 2010)

jtpaintball70 said:


> I guess I overlooked that little fact  Damn. I guess it'd be too much to ask that more states do like OR did for their medic certification? To me requiring an AAS is the least we should expect for medics. I was hoping this might help get to that goal eventually



It is a baby step forward but based on some large unions complaining I wonder if it will become smaller or even done away with.  :sad:


----------



## TransportJockey (Oct 20, 2010)

medic417 said:


> It is a baby step forward but based on some large unions complaining I wonder if it will become smaller or even done away with.  :sad:



Unions? As in plural? I figured IAFF would be one, but who's the others?


----------



## medic417 (Oct 20, 2010)

jtpaintball70 said:


> Unions? As in plural? I figured IAFF would be one, but who's the others?



Sorry should have been Union.


----------



## CAOX3 (Oct 20, 2010)

I get if everyone blames the IAFF for the minimal education standards in EMS.  

That being said I know of no EMS agency who rewards a stipend for any educational degree.  I know twenty fire departments off the top of my head who do even if its an unrelated field and base a percentage of their promotions on them.

How many of your EMS supervisors hold a degree in anything?

So its sexy to blame the fire departments for lack of education in EMS, where's the evidence, they at least have a history of rewarding education and some will even reimburse you.  So please enough, present evidence not agenda.


----------



## usalsfyre (Oct 20, 2010)

CAOX3 said:


> I get if everyone blames the IAFF for the minimal education standards in EMS.
> 
> That being said I know of no EMS agency who rewards a stipend for any educational degree.  I know twenty fire departments off the top of my head who do even if its an unrelated field and base a percentage of their promotions on them.
> 
> ...



It's not really a stipend, but our service pays more for an LP, which in Texas means college. 

The fire department/IAFF is not anti-education. Their anti-EMS education. Why? Because a two year degree puts it out of reach sending current employees easily/cheaply. Without a big base of easy to certify employees you have to hire outside. Making it much harder to take over EMS, or staff every flipin' apparatus with underskilled paramedics "just in case". Indeed, it may lead to some union employees losing their jobs in favor of medics, or make the new guys higher paid and less likely to get laid off, all big no-nos in union land. In addition a two year degree would signify it's a real profession, not just a tech-level cert like rope-rescue, hazmat, ect (albeit a lot longer). If it's not an add-on, what's the FD doing staffing it? 

I was a firemedic. These are all concerns I heard, from IAFF members. So it's not just fashionable to blame the IAFF for lack of education, it's truthful.


----------



## TransportJockey (Oct 20, 2010)

CAOX3 said:


> I get if everyone blames the IAFF for the minimal education standards in EMS.
> 
> That being said I know of no EMS agency who rewards a stipend for any educational degree.  I know twenty fire departments off the top of my head who do even if its an unrelated field and base a percentage of their promotions on them.
> 
> ...



My new service does give extra money for a degree, in the form of the LP level in TX.


----------



## CAOX3 (Oct 20, 2010)

usalsfyre said:


> It's not really a stipend, but our service pays more for an LP, which in Texas means college.
> 
> The fire department/IAFF is not anti-education. Their anti-EMS education. Why? Because a two year degree puts it out of reach sending current employees easily/cheaply. Without a big base of easy to certify employees you have to hire outside. Making it much harder to take over EMS, or staff every flipin' apparatus with underskilled paramedics "just in case". Indeed, it may lead to some union employees losing their jobs in favor of medics, or make the new guys higher paid and less likely to get laid off, all big no-nos in union land. In addition a two year degree would signify it's a real profession, not just a tech-level cert like rope-rescue, hazmat, ect (albeit a lot longer). If it's not an add-on, what's the FD doing staffing it?
> 
> I was a firemedic. These are all concerns I heard, from IAFF members. So it's not just fashionable to blame the IAFF for lack of education, it's truthful.




OK so have you broached the subject with paramedics of private and third service EMS?  I'm sure you will find the same opposition. This forum represents a small percentage of EMS professionals.  Just because its accepted here doesn't mean it will be accepted by the masses.   And why would a private or third EMS service be receptive.  Higher salaries with the same reimbursement.  

I dont believe any fire department here is putting their EMTs through paramedic school anymore.  Its a requirement to be hired.  So it wouldn't be their obligation.

What I'm saying is there is more then one reason EMS hasn't progressed to an educated health profession blaming the fire department is the easy thing to do but thats only the tip of the iceberg.


----------



## usalsfyre (Oct 20, 2010)

I currently work for hospital-based EMS. If you ask the Paramedics I work with, none are opposed to a degree requirement, as long as reasonable time-frame to obtain a degree is put forth. The Basics often are, however many of them are concerned only with "how long does it take to get my medic", not how the quality of patient care they will provide afterward. It's not about higher salaries right away, it's about the quality of Paramedics. 

I can think of half a dozen FDs that will send you to Paramedic school as I type this, and can probably come up with two dozen or more if I have time to think. Many of these are large, all ALS agencies, meaning loosing people for two years or more would be costly. If they went with the smaller pre-certified hiring pool, many of them would have problems filling their openings, or staying within imposed quotas. 

There are many reasons EMS is not more professional, but the FD is not just the tip of the iceberg. It's a darn good chunk of it. The nursing masses have not set the professions agenda, a few forward thinkers have.


----------



## Veneficus (Oct 20, 2010)

CAOX3 said:


> What I'm saying is there is more then one reason EMS hasn't progressed to an educated health profession blaming the fire department is the easy thing to do but thats only the tip of the iceberg.



I agree with this statement, but I would like to add that the IAFF and IAFC are the largest and most prominant single body. 

I think it would be fair to say if the fire service embraced the change no other parties would hold significant enough influence even together to stop any changes.


----------



## terrible one (Oct 20, 2010)

Few questions since I know very little in the ways of educational standards.

Is it not possible to say all incoming medic applicants are required to have an A.S. By say 2013 or whatever. In other words those who already hold a medic license can be grandfathered in? And the ones applying have to get a degree before applying?

Also why not just have FDs require a medic license as a pre-req to employement? A majority do in CA, so instead of sending their recruits away just make them be a PM prior. There are so many applicants for FD these days I don't see it being an issue of not being able to fill seats with medics like it used to be.

Sorry if these questions are off the wall but it doesn't seem like to hard a situation to fix to increase educational standards and please the IAFF


----------



## CAOX3 (Oct 20, 2010)

terrible one said:


> Few questions since I know very little in the ways of educational standards.
> 
> Is it not possible to say all incoming medic applicants are required to have an A.S. By say 2013 or whatever. In other words those who already hold a medic license can be grandfathered in? And the ones applying have to get a degree before applying?
> 
> ...



These were my thoughts, communitis here put there foot down, their not paying for a paramedic class and then overtime to put them through it.  They just require it to apply. I was under the impression that was the norm everywhere.


----------



## WVEmt (Oct 20, 2010)

MrBrown said:


> These sorts of debates are not good for Brown's blood pressure and cellular metabolisim.
> 
> Therefore, I will sit this one out.
> 
> *Brown goes to the corner and plays with his toy helicopter



Doesn't Brown have a real helicopter he can go play with in between the long hard hours of naps and watching tv?


----------



## MrBrown (Oct 20, 2010)

If the Fire Department requires a Paramedic license as a pre-req to be hired as a Firefighter then you are going to get a bunch of Firefighther applicants whipping down to the fastest, cheapest, get em in get em out Paramedic school to satisfy that requirement. 

Why? They have no interest in becoming Paramedics and are simply seeking to satisfy the requirement to get on the big red truck.

People with Degrees universally demand more pay because they wish to be reimbursed for the application of knowledge the Degree will allow and for the debt they have incurred.

The current funding arrangements from Medicare/Medicaid/insurance do not allow for increased wages and Lord knows nobody wants to pay increased municipal taxes.

Now lets not even get started on the volunteers who demand the lowest amount of education possible.  

Add to these groups the Parathinktheyare's who are barely homeostasasing and not interested in a two or three year Degree because thats boring and they dont want to learn about biochemistry, angiotensinogen and all that boring stuff.


----------



## terrible one (Oct 20, 2010)

MrBrown said:


> If the Fire Department requires a Paramedic license as a pre-req to be hired as a Firefighter then you are going to get a bunch of Firefighther applicants whipping down to the fastest, cheapest, get em in get em out Paramedic school to satisfy that requirement.
> 
> Why? They have no interest in becoming Paramedics and are simply seeking to satisfy the requirement to get on the big red truck.



Brown I know your not familiar with the US but this has already been happening for the last 10 years. The greater majority of those in US medic schools are only there to ride big red. Why not atleast require them to have a degree? Many of FDs in SoCal already require a p card to apply.


----------



## MrBrown (Oct 21, 2010)

terrible one said:


> The greater majority of those in US medic schools are only there to ride big red.



Which bar did they pick up "big red" at? 

Brown knows all too well unfortunately, about substandard corner cutting barely homeostasasing Parathinktheyare's who want to be Firefighters; not about riding big red, Brown has no knowledge of that whatsoever.


----------



## terrible one (Oct 21, 2010)

Haha good one brown


----------

