# OKC  EMSA paramedic program???



## jagonz5413 (May 4, 2013)

Whats up ladies and gents, new guy here. Currently at the osuokc emt program, my registry is this coming friday, flippin nervous! anyway..
anybody in oklahoma attended the emsa medic program? i understand after 6 months of employment as a emt, you can start the 1 yr program. half the time as any other community college but of course the contract afterwards. Which i think is fine. Looking for any adivice, positive or negative feedback. emsa vs community college medic school??  Is the program really fast paced and difficult? Im just trying to weigh out the pros and cons from the medics that were once in my situation. Unfortunately ive heard more negative things about it. Any oklahoman medics please feel free to help me out


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## NomadicMedic (May 4, 2013)

Paging Rocketmedic!


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## jagonz5413 (May 4, 2013)

i noticed he was from okc, i tried to pm him. apparently since this is my 1st post i couldnt pm anyone. after 5 posts then i can pm, stupid!


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## NomadicMedic (May 4, 2013)

Sorry you feel that way. We set a 5 post PM threshold to encourage participation and reduce spam. Feel free to join the conversation in some our other threads.


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## Fish (May 4, 2013)

jagonz5413 said:


> Whats up ladies and gents, new guy here. Currently at the osuokc emt program, my registry is this coming friday, flippin nervous! anyway..
> anybody in oklahoma attended the emsa medic program? i understand after 6 months of employment as a emt, you can start the 1 yr program. half the time as any other community college but of course the contract afterwards. Which i think is fine. Looking for any adivice, positive or negative feedback. emsa vs community college medic school??  Is the program really fast paced and difficult? Im just trying to weigh out the pros and cons from the medics that were once in my situation. Unfortunately ive heard more negative things about it. Any oklahoman medics please feel free to help me out



I know nothing of this program. But certainly, I would recommend a Community College course over any accelerated program. There are always exceptions though.


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## Fish (May 4, 2013)

jagonz5413 said:


> i noticed he was from okc, i tried to pm him. apparently since this is my 1st post i couldnt pm anyone. after 5 posts then i can pm, stupid!



Also, I would not be brand new to a forum and call the rules stupid while looking for advice from the users.


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## jagonz5413 (May 4, 2013)

my apologies people. i will interact more.


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## Handsome Robb (May 4, 2013)

Ooooooh Roooooooocket where are you?

He doesn't work there anymore but I bet when he sees this thread he'll be able to give you some input.

There's no definitive answer about it. Here the 911 provider's medic program blows the CC's out of the water. Not even a comparison. Other places the CC programs put the vocational schools to shame. Very area dependent.


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## jagonz5413 (May 4, 2013)

ya like fish said, its an accelerated program, i dont want to get information overload, i rather have it soak in over time.  which i understand sacrificing 2 yrs, tuition, clinical hrs, juggling a job in between is tough as opposed to learning only emsa protocals, 3 yr bind and ya know.. free and your getting paid as a job thru the school..hmmmmm.  i just dont know


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## Fish (May 4, 2013)

jagonz5413 said:


> ya like fish said, its an accelerated program, i dont want to get information overload, i rather have it soak in over time.  which i understand sacrificing 2 yrs, tuition, clinical hrs, juggling a job in between is tough as opposed to learning only emsa protocals, 3 yr bind and ya know.. free and your getting paid as a job thru the school..hmmmmm.  i just dont know



Once again, I know nothing about either of these schools so my opinion is 100% non-biased.

Robb stated his employers program was better than that of the local CC, I think his is an exception. I had said before there are some exceptions.

I think one of the biggest issues with accelerated programs is the time not spent on things, everything is gone over quicker and not so in-depth. The A&P and Pharm courses are nothing compared to a traditional lab & lecture course from a College. A&P and Pharm are extremely important to grasp and have a solid foundation on prior to Paramedic school if you have any hopes of being a competent and successful entry level Paramedics at the service of your choice.

I see a lot of people from accelerated programs struggle to find jobs with systems that have actual testing processes. When I do see a Paramedic excell in a hiring process who has gone through an accelerated program it is typically because they have some sort of a pre-med, biology, or nursing degree.


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## RocketMedic (May 6, 2013)

jagonz5413 said:


> Whats up ladies and gents, new guy here. Currently at the osuokc emt program, my registry is this coming friday, flippin nervous! anyway..
> anybody in oklahoma attended the emsa medic program? i understand after 6 months of employment as a emt, you can start the 1 yr program. half the time as any other community college but of course the contract afterwards. Which i think is fine. Looking for any adivice, positive or negative feedback. emsa vs community college medic school??  Is the program really fast paced and difficult? Im just trying to weigh out the pros and cons from the medics that were once in my situation. Unfortunately ive heard more negative things about it. Any oklahoman medics please feel free to help me out




Ok, here goes (you may have ridden with me, I had some OKCOSU students a few weeks ago).
EMSA is a progressively retro system to work in. There are a lot of protocols, a lot of rules and a lot of unspoken dos and don'ts. They are obsessed with measuring statistics and heavily emphasize their collection and accounting on everything you do. The protocols are fairly open, despite what people may think, and with a few glaring exceptions (ie pain management and use of ALS medications), they're comfortably progressive. QI is not terrible, but is far from excellent as well. The biggest medical complaint I had with EMSA is that I was often forced to perform interventions based on the protocol, not on medical need. Anxiety attack with possible syncope? _Technically_ falls into the "altered mentation" protocol and mandates 12-lead, IV access and capnography monitoring. Seizure? 12-lead and capnography in, before medication, because you never know if that seizure might really be v-fib (yes, that particular myth is common here). Trauma? It had better be on a backboard (or, in my case, adamantly refused by my patient after I asked if they wanted to be placed on a 20-degree piece of hard plastic padded only by a thin blanket- answer was "no" (and yes, I got QIed for it). Medication? You'd better have the Lifenet (IV, O2, SpO2, capnography, ECG) built before you start. Airway management wasn't terrible, but medically, EMSA is pleasantly ahead in some places and way, way regressive in others. The call diversity is pretty broad- I have literally gone from mansions to ghettos to farms to nursing homes in one night, once without leaving Edmond, OK. There is a lot of support available too, so you'll rarely be overwhelmed with patient numbers.

Operationally, EMSA is a meat grinder of a system, or perhaps a steamroller. The call volume isn't terrible on most nights, but we rotate posts constantly and falling behind on charting is a sure way to commit to a few extra hours at the end of the night. 4 12-hour rotating shifts, paramedic must tech all calls regardless of level, and the charting (Zoll Rescuenet now) is not exactly swift and efficient. As of now, the Oklahoma City EMSA schedule is a fixed, nonrotating 4x12, which means that new hires get shafted with weekend/nights for at least 8 months. Pay is low-average for paramedics, slightly above area average for EMTs. Overtime is fairly easy to get. Bonus days when they need a shift are nice, but way too many people rely on them. Benefits are mediocre and expensive Cigna. The schedule is why I left EMSA- my wife works M-F 0800-1700, I worked Th-Sun 1915-1915 with frequent overtime and the Guard tossed in and was barely making what I was planning on when I moved up here from AMR (which I still highly recommend, AMR Alamogordo rocked). As you can see, I rarely saw my wife without some permutation of sleep involved. Family life is way, way more important than any job (it's why I left the military, and it's why I left EMSA.) Plus, you're going to be staring at a computer for at least 8 hours out of the day if you want to clear the hospital in anything like a reasonable time and have coherent charts. It is a fairly unhealthy lifestyle. 

Now, on to education: EMSA's paramedic program is either excellent or horrible, there's not really anything in the middle. First, let's talk about pay and job security. Your 6 months of EMT at EMSA have been tiring, but productive if you live at home or are independently wealthy, those with families have probably broken even at best or lived decently with a LOT of hours. You now get paid to go to school at your EMT wage, and can still pick up shifts as an EMT (your regular work schedule is rotating now, fairly desirable); you also get your selection of clinical spots -and- your work schedule is built on a special rotation that allows you to have very desirable shifts (M-Th 9-2100 or a rotating shift, generally). These shifts are reserved for EMSA paramedic students and work with your school schedule in mind. Once you graduate, you are contracted to EMSA for three years as a paramedic, but you'll be paid at the lowest level of paramedic pay- a little under $13.75/hour. This means you're looking at about a .40-cent pay raise from the highest EMT level, which doesn't really matter. A day-one medic makes more than a senior EMT, but it's not a lot by any means. Leaving early means you get to pay the outstanding cost of the school back to EMSA or face collections (this is rarely enforced, too expensive to recoup losses). 

The education EMSA offers is not substantially better or worse than the community college offerings, but it is more distributed and probably easier to pick up due to constant exposure. The card is the same. However, EMSA EMTs are not allowed to tech patients, and most EMSA medics, myself included, are leery of 'paramedic students' teching calls to a significant extent. All in all, the EMSA paramedic students are better EMTs than their community college counterparts, but similar paramedics.

The community college paramedic courses here suck, flat-out. Although they get on the right track with education and attempted early exposure to EMS via third-rides, they do not teach students before they hit the trucks, which produces wildly variable results. It is no exaggeration to say that I had a student "there to practice assessments" at a paramedic level who had not yet been taught to read an ECG; there is another program (I think OSU) that had students doing IVs before they learned assessments as an outrider of its AEMT program. I'm a fairly new medic, and I love having students, but that made very little sense to me. Rose State and Gordon Cooper out in Shawnee supposedly have better programs, and I hear that Gordon Cooper actually has very good clinicals (I know they ride with REACT and do hospital rotations at Saints-Shawnee). 

At the end of the day, your paramedic school doesn't matter. I went to a hole in the wall in El Paso that's closed now because the owner couldn't gain accreditation (EMS Online Training Plus) and learned very little that EMTLife and my parents didn't teach me or that I couldn't find out on my own. I did most of my bookwork online and did clinicals whenever I could around the Army's schedule. My knowledge base does have gaps, some of which I know, some of which I'm discovering. My school didn't teach me a whole lot, and a lot of what they did teach was outdated, but I was able to think critically and modify what needed to be changed to be a decent paramedic today. I'm currently backschooling at Rose State and working on an AAS in Paramedicine to shore up my credentials, then a bachelor's degree somewhere. In the meantime, I'm a new-hire medic at REACT who can afford to live in a nice apartment, drive a relatively nice truck and eat three whole times a day and do it under lights that turn on.

Out of the choices you have here, the EMSA program is the fastest way to get your paramedic, the most economically viable for a person who has to work a steady schedule and *possibly* a more relevant education that I would really say is more of a "training". EMSA paramedics coming from the EMSA school generally breeze through the EMSA FTO process because they know what's expected and desired from them and they know how to do everything they'll be tested on. New hires (even experienced ones) often struggle because EMSA does operate a little differently and the majority of FTOs are rather nitpicky (protip: don't draw up IM epi and benadryl and give them to an infant with a decent and screamingly obvious case of anaphylaxis without a B/P, SpO2, ECG, IV access, capnography and blood glucose- that's the issue that made me and my first FTO get in a rather heated argument and moved me to a second FTO. I could have killed that kid had my IV access not been placed prior to epi, benadryl could have made his pressure drop dangerously, and I needed to secure his airway before I worried about circulation: _Those were the stated reasons I failed that call, BTW._) Anyway, EMSA's program is the fastest and most locally job-relevant, but I would stop short of endorsing it. Long-term, it's probably the worst of the three- locally, there's a stigma at other services against EMSA Drone Thought and the school is not well-regarded in comparison to other local programs, your pay is frozen-low where other services might pay better, and relocation opportunities now come with a potentially large charge for "leaving early". 

The community college programs are a bit more disorganized, but they do offer college credit for their work and you can work while you attend- a guy in the Guard is doing just that at Lifenet in Stillwater, OK. The education is the same, the operational education is inferior, the lack of commitment to EMSA is superior in that it lets you relocate easily. 

EMS and EMS education is what you make of it. I am on my fifth paramedic job in three years and would only want to go back to one of those (AMR, if you ever read this, you have a loyal drone here!) My judgement on REACT is reserved until I know more about it, but I like most of it so far. You should always have an escape plan and always be ready to move in this industry, and do not be afraid to seek a better opportunity for organizational loyalty. Organizational loyalty does not pay the bills, but sometimes the best operational organizations are not the best clinical organizations and sometimes they are. You'll see what I mean. 

If you have a working spouse and/or a family, I would recommend you explore alternate options before EMSA or another 12-hour SSM agency with a nonrotating schedule.


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## RocketMedic (May 6, 2013)

DEmedic said:


> Paging Rocketmedic!



To the rescue!


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## RocketMedic (May 6, 2013)

Robb said:


> Ooooooh Roooooooocket where are you?
> 
> He doesn't work there anymore but I bet when he sees this thread he'll be able to give you some input.
> 
> There's no definitive answer about it. Here the 911 provider's medic program blows the CC's out of the water. Not even a comparison. Other places the CC programs put the vocational schools to shame. Very area dependent.



I get the feeling you and I would be awesome partners, Robb.


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## RocketMedic (May 6, 2013)

Fish said:


> Once again, I know nothing about either of these schools so my opinion is 100% non-biased.
> 
> Robb stated his employers program was better than that of the local CC, I think his is an exception. I had said before there are some exceptions.
> 
> ...


Fish, I think the reciprocal of this is that paramedics who work _for that agency_ prior to school have an easier time with the paramedic testing because of personal familiarity with the system, evaluators and what's being requested of them.


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## Fish (May 6, 2013)

Rocketmedic40 said:


> Fish, I think the reciprocal of this is that paramedics who work _for that agency_ prior to school have an easier time with the paramedic testing because of personal familiarity with the system, evaluators and what's being requested of them.



I was more referring to Paramedics who have gone through accelerated programs trying to get hired on with agencies that have strict hiring practices. I know they do not have trouble within their own agencies because it is THAT agency that grew the Medic. It is when they go off and want to work for another service that has a hiring process that is ment to really test someones knowledge and ability.


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## Fish (May 6, 2013)

Rocketmedic40 said:


> Ok, here goes (you may have ridden with me, I had some OKCOSU students a few weeks ago).
> EMSA is a progressively retro system to work in. There are a lot of protocols, a lot of rules and a lot of unspoken dos and don'ts. They are obsessed with measuring statistics and heavily emphasize their collection and accounting on everything you do. The protocols are fairly open, despite what people may think, and with a few glaring exceptions (ie pain management and use of ALS medications), they're comfortably progressive. QI is not terrible, but is far from excellent as well. The biggest medical complaint I had with EMSA is that I was often forced to perform interventions based on the protocol, not on medical need. Anxiety attack with possible syncope? _Technically_ falls into the "altered mentation" protocol and mandates 12-lead, IV access and capnography monitoring. Seizure? 12-lead and capnography in, before medication, because you never know if that seizure might really be v-fib (yes, that particular myth is common here). Trauma? It had better be on a backboard (or, in my case, adamantly refused by my patient after I asked if they wanted to be placed on a 20-degree piece of hard plastic padded only by a thin blanket- answer was "no" (and yes, I got QIed for it). Medication? You'd better have the Lifenet (IV, O2, SpO2, capnography, ECG) built before you start. Airway management wasn't terrible, but medically, EMSA is pleasantly ahead in some places and way, way regressive in others. The call diversity is pretty broad- I have literally gone from mansions to ghettos to farms to nursing homes in one night, once without leaving Edmond, OK. There is a lot of support available too, so you'll rarely be overwhelmed with patient numbers.
> 
> Operationally, EMSA is a meat grinder of a system, or perhaps a steamroller. The call volume isn't terrible on most nights, but we rotate posts constantly and falling behind on charting is a sure way to commit to a few extra hours at the end of the night. 4 12-hour rotating shifts, paramedic must tech all calls regardless of level, and the charting (Zoll Rescuenet now) is not exactly swift and efficient. As of now, the Oklahoma City EMSA schedule is a fixed, nonrotating 4x12, which means that new hires get shafted with weekend/nights for at least 8 months. Pay is low-average for paramedics, slightly above area average for EMTs. Overtime is fairly easy to get. Bonus days when they need a shift are nice, but way too many people rely on them. Benefits are mediocre and expensive Cigna. The schedule is why I left EMSA- my wife works M-F 0800-1700, I worked Th-Sun 1915-1915 with frequent overtime and the Guard tossed in and was barely making what I was planning on when I moved up here from AMR (which I still highly recommend, AMR Alamogordo rocked). As you can see, I rarely saw my wife without some permutation of sleep involved. Family life is way, way more important than any job (it's why I left the military, and it's why I left EMSA.) Plus, you're going to be staring at a computer for at least 8 hours out of the day if you want to clear the hospital in anything like a reasonable time and have coherent charts. It is a fairly unhealthy lifestyle.
> ...



This needs to be a sticky in the employement section, for ALL who ask about this service.


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## Handsome Robb (May 6, 2013)

Rocketmedic40 said:


> I get the feeling you and I would be awesome partners, Robb.



I'd agree. Doubt we'd get much accomplished but it'd be a good time! Haha

Hey man.....the LifeNet saves lives....


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## jagonz5413 (May 6, 2013)

wow! thank you soo much for your well put response.  Let me say this first, I am single with no kids. So if i had to work a ton of hrs to make it at Emt pay, i will.  "sacrifices for the experience", i was once told. My ultimate goal is paramedic for the fire service. Not only will it help me more for a job offering (obvious reason) but i want to further my education to a more advance level. After learning in Emt program i was hooked. The 3 yr contract..thats 3 yrs out of a fire job but then again with emsa, thats a decent amount of experience one can write on a resume. As far as a community college  like osukc, i felt that they went over the skills super fast before they went on to a next. im more of a person that has to do it over and over again for it to become second nature to me.  I get shown once in a 10 min demonstration and i am expected to show what i learned in the practical??  Like you said with emsa, more distributed and easier to pick up on, due to constant exposure. I want to become the best paramedic i can before i even think of checkmarking that box of emt-p on a fire app. Definately need more thinking on this issue.


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## RocketMedic (May 6, 2013)

Fish said:


> This needs to be a sticky in the employement section, for ALL who ask about this service.



Agreed...mods?


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## NomadicMedic (May 6, 2013)

I don't see us creating a sticky for this, but it will be searchable in the forum search, as is information on employment at any of the other services across the country that members have posted.


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## RocketMedic (May 6, 2013)

jagonz5413 said:


> wow! thank you soo much for your well put response.  Let me say this first, I am single with no kids. So if i had to work a ton of hrs to make it at Emt pay, i will.  "sacrifices for the experience", i was once told. My ultimate goal is paramedic for the fire service. Not only will it help me more for a job offering (obvious reason) but i want to further my education to a more advance level. After learning in Emt program i was hooked. The 3 yr contract..thats 3 yrs out of a fire job but then again with emsa, thats a decent amount of experience one can write on a resume. As far as a community college  like osukc, i felt that they went over the skills super fast before they went on to a next. im more of a person that has to do it over and over again for it to become second nature to me.  I get shown once in a 10 min demonstration and i am expected to show what i learned in the practical??  Like you said with emsa, more distributed and easier to pick up on, due to constant exposure. I want to become the best paramedic i can before i even think of checkmarking that box of emt-p on a fire app. Definately need more thinking on this issue.



Well, thats one way to look at it. Personally, I try not to sacrifice much.


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## MMiz (May 6, 2013)

Rocketmedic40 said:


> Agreed...mods?


Awesome response!  It was a great read. Still, we don't get hundreds of people with questions for EMSA. Not quite sticky material, but you got my vote for reply of the month!


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## thuumBalina (May 6, 2013)

Speaking as someone who attempted the OSU-OKC program:

I hated it. The instructors treated each class as an opportunity to shoot the sh** with their buddies, effectively wasting time for 3/4 of us. When they did manage to motivate themselves to teach, they phoned it in. And, as Rocket (hola, Bro! little sis here!) states, students were expected to act effectively as 3rd riders without any knowledge base. I knew a few students in my class who couldn't even pass their EMT-B's, but were still progressing through the paramedic program. I think my only saving grace was my father and my 68W training.

I ended up on my brother's couch, going to EOTP (mere seconds before the whole program went up in smoke), and despite all the bull that the program entailed I feel it was better than the sham that is community college. Not to say that EOTP didn't leave me horrendously unprepared for NREMT... For that I 100% recommend Daniel Freeman @ UCLA for a refresher and mock NREMT.


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## jagonz5413 (May 6, 2013)

Hey I agree w osu okc. The instructors halfed a**  their way thru during labs. Being an instructor was their 2nd or even 3rd job. So they come in exhausted from a 12-14 hr shift from the same day. I felt like they just wanted to hurry up and get the lab over without any of the students fully understanding a certain skill... Anyway i dont kno what eotp is, never heard of it.


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## AceThunderstone (May 13, 2013)

Either some time has passed since RocketMedic's time at EMSA or Tulsa is just vastly different. But here's a little perspective from the other end of the turnpike:

The paramedic program is fast paced and takes eight months. It's done though Redlands Community College in El Reno but onsite in Tulsa and OKC with EMSA instructors. The guy in Tulsa goes heavy into A&P and seemingly takes teaching more seriously than a lot of certificate programs throughout the state. The buyout from the contract is relatively inexpensive and you're basically paid to be a student and work the odd shift. So far, the medics that have made it through the program are pretty good. 

As for working here, the schedule has changed some. The shifts are still twelve hours but you'll alternate four and three day work weeks. Some shifts are weekday only, some weekends, and some alternate. The starting wage is also higher now to compensate for the loss of hours so you can expect to start around $11.30ish/hour as an EMT. Shifts are chosen based on seniority so you can kiss your weekends goodbye for the first year but that won't matter much if you make it into the paramedic course after six months. It's also worth mentioning that the max EMT pay is actually above the minimum paramedic pay and, for now, there are plenty of OT shifts and almost all of them are bonused at $350. That will probably stop once staffing is increased enough to cover all of the shifts they've added but it's pretty easy to get hired this year as a consequence.

The protocols really are hit and miss and yes you need a four lead, BP, and SpO2 before administering any meds but a halfway-decent partner will have that knocked out before you have anything drawn up. If you really feel it needs to be done now, you do the paperwork, so whether or not you throw yourself under the bus is up to you. Most people elect not to. The spinal immobilization protocol is slightly more lax now but is another thing that can be documented away in a lot of cases.

The main advantage to working at EMSA is that it fits a lot of experience into a short amount of time. The average number of calls per shifts has gone down with the larger numbers of ambulances being put on the street but there are still nights of 10 or more calls. And like RocketMedic already explained, the school you attend really isn't that important. The next agency you work at will be more concerned about your experience and you'll have plenty. It's true that their is some animosity towards EMSA medics for a certain better-than-everyone-else attitude we seem to exude (or so I've been told) but you'll be hard-pressed to find a service in Oklahoma that doesn't have at least one former EMSA employee on staff.

It's definitely not for most people but it's a wonderful stepping stone. If you do decide to apply here, don't mention you want to be a firefighter. Just my two cents.


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## 46Young (May 13, 2013)

AceThunderstone said:


> Either some time has passed since RocketMedic's time at EMSA or Tulsa is just vastly different. But here's a little perspective from the other end of the turnpike:
> 
> The paramedic program is fast paced and takes eight months. It's done though Redlands Community College in El Reno but onsite in Tulsa and OKC with EMSA instructors. The guy in Tulsa goes heavy into A&P and seemingly takes teaching more seriously than a lot of certificate programs throughout the state. The buyout from the contract is relatively inexpensive and you're basically paid to be a student and work the odd shift. So far, the medics that have made it through the program are pretty good.
> 
> ...



That's how many experienced medics have operated (that I've seen) - do what needs to be done (or withheld), and chart in such a way that you don't get flagged for it. Like you've said, if they want 12 lead, ETCO2, etc. to push any med, and it's needed right now (like epi for anaphylaxis for example), then get the vitals as soon as is feasible, and just reverse the times of the vitals and the epi admin. Patients that truly don't need spinal motion restriction are documented as having "refused" that intervention. This stuff isn't too hard.

One thing though - other agencies having EMSA employees on staff isn't a good selling point. These agencies are were these former employees chose to go after choosing to leave EMSA. You want to work for a place that has employees from other places, that used those jobs as a stepping stone for your department. But you're right about the firefighter thing - its common for prospective firefighters to use EMS as easy money until they get the fire academy offer.

I also find it interesting that you've identified that experience with a valid cert is the most employable feature on an applicant's resume. Still, to this day, the vast majority of employers value that over additional education. This is valid for municipal third service, fire, hospital based, and the privates alike. We get lip service from some systems about education, but the truth of the matter is, the employers benefit from keeping the cert process easy, so that they can keep pay low, and the hours long. Sorry, but $12-$14/hr as a medic working a 56 hour schedule is a steal for an EMS agency. I've only seen decent pay in the Tri-State area (NY), and KCM1. $50k/yr isn't crap if you have to do 48-56 hours a week to get there.


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## MedicBadge192 (Jan 30, 2014)

I heard the buyout was outrageous, and that their pass rate was atrocious.


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