# 2 Jersey Medics deliver baby by caesarean



## akflightmedic

Click Link to read more....


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C07E7D9143AF934A1575AC0A961958260

2 Paramedics Face Inquiry Over Surgery In Emergency
By DAVID W. CHEN
Published: September 27, 1997


New Jersey health officials are investigating the actions of two paramedics who performed an emergency Caesarean section on Thursday to deliver the baby of a woman in North Bergen who was in cardiac arrest and could not be revived.

The paramedics acted while consulting by radio with emergency room doctors at Jersey City Medical Center, officials said, but state health regulations forbid paramedics to perform surgical operations. The emergency workers said they believed that the procedure was their only hope of saving the baby.


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## MrBrown

Brown thinks you are about 13 years behind the times 

... oh how Brown misses the 1990s


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## CAOX3

So what was the outcome, since this took place thirteen years ago.


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## akflightmedic

Let the jokes fly...amongst my busy schedule, I did not check the date...and the link was sent to me and I posted.


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## CAOX3

Still would be interested to know what the outcome of the baby and the inquiry was.


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## medicdan

An interesting past discussion:
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=6075


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## akflightmedic

WOW! Kiwi was here in 2007??? How time flies...


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## firecoins

akflightmedic said:


> Click Link to read more....
> 
> 
> http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C07E7D9143AF934A1575AC0A961958260
> 
> 2 Paramedics Face Inquiry Over Surgery In Emergency
> By DAVID W. CHEN
> Published: September 27, 1997
> 
> 
> New Jersey health officials are investigating the actions of two paramedics who performed an emergency Caesarean section on Thursday to deliver the baby of a woman in North Bergen who was in cardiac arrest and could not be revived.
> 
> The paramedics acted while consulting by radio with emergency room doctors at Jersey City Medical Center, officials said, but state health regulations forbid paramedics to perform surgical operations. The emergency workers said they believed that the procedure was their only hope of saving the baby.


we talked about this alot in my 2008 medic class.


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## lightsandsirens5

Ha ha ha! I thought that story sounded familiar! I didn't even bother to read the dates. I just started reading and got so absorbed, then I started thinking, you know, this sounds remarkably like another story I heard........then I got back on here and read the replies. LOL!


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## medic417

Only in Jersey would something like that even be newsworthy.


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## EMSLaw

medic417 said:


> Only in Jersey would something like that even be newsworthy.



In your state, a field c-section is within protocol for a medic?

These particular medics lost their certs over this incident.  I don't know if they ever got them back, but it's a pretty well-known story.


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## reaper

It was their decision to make. If they felt the chance for the baby was worth losing their license over, that was a choice they made. 

Hell, maybe they OB/GYN's by now!


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## firecoins

EMSLaw said:


> In your state, a field c-section is within protocol for a medic?
> 
> These particular medics lost their certs over this incident.  I don't know if they ever got them back, but it's a pretty well-known story.



They lost their Jersey MICUs but I believe they each had their NR-EMT-Ps which they didn't lose.  I am unsure if they had NY Certs being how close they live to NY but NY took no action against them.


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## bstone

firecoins said:


> They lost their Jersey MICUs but I believe they each had their NR-EMT-Ps which they didn't lose.  I am unsure if they had NY Certs being how close they live to NY but NY took no action against them.



Were they ever allowed to get their medic licenses back in NJ? Was it a complete revokation or suspension for a period of time? Did the committee that made this decision use their brains or did they blindly follow policy?


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## firecoins

bstone said:


> Were they ever allowed to get their medic licenses back in NJ? Was it a complete revokation or suspension for a period of time? Did the committee that made this decision use their brains or did they blindly follow policy?



Don't know.  I was told they lost MICU so I gather not.  Since I didn't hear it from these 2 people , take what I am saying with a grain of salt.  I assume they are working in NY.


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## TransportJockey

EMSLaw said:


> In your state, a field c-section is within protocol for a medic?
> 
> These particular medics lost their certs over this incident.  I don't know if they ever got them back, but it's a pretty well-known story.



It can be very easily if his service medical director said he could do it in the field. The med director could even allow basics to do it if he wanted to and trained them


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## bstone

jtpaintball70 said:


> It can be very easily if his service medical director said he could do it in the field. The med director could even allow basics to do it if he wanted to and trained them



Nope. A med director can only do that is allowed by statute. If the statute says "no C-Sections by EMT-Bs, but Is and Ps can" then he cannot make a protocol allowing Bs to do it.


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## TransportJockey

bstone said:


> Nope. A med director can only do that is allowed by statute. If the statute says "no C-Sections by EMT-Bs, but Is and Ps can" then he cannot make a protocol allowing Bs to do it.



True for every state except the state that Medic417 works in


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## firecoins

EMSLaw said:


> In your state, a field c-section is within protocol for a medic?
> 
> .



A field C-Secion is not in scope of pratice of a medic in  NJ, even if it is directed by an MD.


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## EMSLaw

firecoins said:


> A field C-Secion is not in scope of pratice of a medic in  NJ, even if it is directed by an MD.



I'm aware of that, of course, but my question was more along the lines of - does /any/ state allow it?  

Theoretically, as we've discussed, Texas (with it's unlimited delegated scope of practice) could do, but has any medical director actually agreed to let his medics start cutting on expectant mothers - even dead ones?


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## usalsfyre

EMSLaw said:


> I'm aware of that, of course, but my question was more along the lines of - does /any/ state allow it?
> 
> Theoretically, as we've discussed, Texas (with it's unlimited delegated scope of practice) could do, but has any medical director actually agreed to let his medics start cutting on expectant mothers - even dead ones?



Actually, Rockwall County EMS outside of Dallas has a protocol for emergent c-section in the setting of maternal cardiac arrest.


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## EMSLaw

usalsfyre said:


> Actually, Rockwall Coutny EMS outside of Dallas has a protocol for emergent c-section in the setting of maternal cardiac arrest.



That's actually very interesting, thank you.  I wonder if it's ever actually been used.


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## usalsfyre

EMSLaw said:


> That's actually very interesting, thank you.  I wonder if it's ever actually been used.



I don't believe it has. As a side note, the medical director of that particular service must have far larger _huevos_ than I...


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## EMS49393

I would venture to say that a paramedic or pair of paramedics in Maryland could get away with preforming a c-section in the presence of maternal death if they were fairly far from an emergency room, like the outer regions of western Maryland, if they consulted with online medical control, that physician agreed to the procedure, talked them through said procedure, and the paramedics felt comfortable enough to perform the procedure.

This is covered under our "extraordinary care" protocol.  If all criteria were met after review of the situation and it was deemed the most appropriate intervention to save at least the life of the child, the paramedics and online physician would not be penalized.  

Here's the rub... MIEMSS has to determine that all parties acted appropriately and in the best interest of saving a life for all to be forgiven.  If they deliver that baby and it dies, it could screw them all.  If they deliver that baby and it lives, they could very well be awarded the EMS Star of Life (or whatever they call it now) Award.  It's all relative to the outcome of the incident.


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## jjesusfreak01

I don't know what would happen here in North Carolina. Our protocols say, "In a maternal arrest, continue treatment, transport rapidly, and call medical control". I'm not sure what they can authorize the medics to do.


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## BLSBoy

Our medical director has stated that if trained, and after making contact with medical control, we can do so. 

If anyone wants, they can search the NJ OEMS website for past infractions, and see what action was taken against the providers. 
Really, go ahead and do it. Theres some funny/pathetic stuff in there.


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## lampnyter

If this is the same story that our instructor told us, the baby lives but the 2 employees were fired.


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## abckidsmom

BLSBoy said:


> Our medical director has stated that if trained, and after making contact with medical control, we can do so.



So your medical director provides training on c-sections?


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## BLSBoy

Many of our medics are, despite the fact we are "only" FireMedics, highly trained, and have second jobs which would allow them the training to provide this care. Not all of us can do this.


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## firecoins

BLSBoy said:


> Our medical director has stated that if trained, and after making contact with medical control, we can do so.
> 
> If anyone wants, they can search the NJ OEMS website for past infractions, and see what action was taken against the providers.
> Really, go ahead and do it. Theres some funny/pathetic stuff in there.



Its funny and pathetic what some providers get away with without being  caught by NJ OEMS.


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## BLSBoy

firecoins said:


> Its funny and pathetic what some providers get away with without being  caught by NJ OEMS.



OEMS can only catch whats reported. How many are gonna drop a dime?


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## firecoins

What must get caught must be really bad.


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## BLSBoy

Or you are in the wrong place at the wrong time. 
The grapevine is always on fire whenever OEMS is in county doing inspections.


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## firecoins

Alot of people impersonating EMTs, A couple of basic EMTs who do not know how to evaluate a newborn/stillborn, medics falsifing narcotic records and emt-Bs/medic who were child predators.  Very interesting.


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## BLSBoy

Regrettably, one of those came from my project. <_<


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## medicsb

bstone said:


> Were they ever allowed to get their medic licenses back in NJ? Was it a complete revokation or suspension for a period of time? Did the committee that made this decision use their brains or did they blindly follow policy?



Apologies for bumping an old thread, but I figure some might be a little bit interested.

I can say for sure that one of the medics is still working as a medic in NJ.


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## BLSBoy

What project?


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