# Massachusetts EMT's Suspension (List)



## splintercell990

Wow, the website posts the full names and companies of the EMT's suspended along with the length of suspension:


http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/23980973/detail.html 

-> website

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/download/2010/0621/23981074.pdf -> pdf of names


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## TransportJockey

Good. Hopefully they'll never find work in EMS again.


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## JPINFV

jtpaintball70 said:


> Good. Hopefully they'll never find work in EMS again.



Yea, except Boston Fire is on that list. They'll probably ask for raises due to this.


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## mikeN

I know 36 people on that list and have worked with most of them.  
My paramedic instructor is on that list.
And I've worked with 2 of the 4 people with 2 years suspensions.  I worked with one of them as recently as last Saturday.


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## Aidey

Insane. I wonder how they determined the length of suspensions.


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## bstone

Armstrong and Haverhill are highly represented on that list. A few in Cambridge, where I live, as well. Remind me to never call 911 when I am in Haverhill or in Armstrong's service area.


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## MMiz

Can anyone say what they were specifically doing that got them in trouble?  Did they lie about taking the courses?  Did they lie about how long the courses were?


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## rescue99

MMiz said:


> Can anyone say what they were specifically doing that got them in trouble?  Did they lie about taking the courses?  Did they lie about how long the courses were?



These folks paid or were given credit for recerts and CEU's they did not attend in an effort to defraud the EMS licensing system and thier employers. 
Yeah, like the chiefs and EMS OPS managers didn't catch on with numbers like these...suuuuure. With a largely unmonitored honor system it is likely MA is only one example of this type of thing happening. It would still be going on if pressure hadn't come from the media. 

Michigan has had these problems, except it included entire courses, not just continuing ed. The SAG wasn't interested in opening the can-o-worms then and I doubt he would be today. He in fact ran (really) to his campaign bus so as not to answer a question about EMS education fraud posed at a crowded festival back in 05. Today he's running for Michigan State Governor. Can't wait till he comes to my town again! Wonder if he can still run that fast??


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## JPINFV

rescue99 said:


> Yeah, like the chiefs and EMS OPS managers didn't catch on with numbers like these...suuuuure.


To be fair, when I recerted I never really provided evidence (i.e. transcript in my case) that I completed the 2 college courses I used for my 48 hours. I'm trying to remember if I turned in anything for the refresher.


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## rescue99

JPINFV said:


> To be fair, when I recerted I never really provided evidence (i.e. transcript in my case) that I completed the 2 college courses I used for my 48 hours. I'm trying to remember if I turned in anything for the refresher.



Fair..what's there to be fair about? You got away with something because someone wasn't doing his/her job in keeping records. There is bound to be a policy. 

Seriously, there had to be policies concerning how a department or company will ensure it is in compliance with state, county and regional requirements? It is unimaginable that there would not be. These chiefs and OPS folks (HR perhaps) weren't doing their jobs from the looks of the whole mess. It's gone on for years, several years and the only reason it's come to light now is because some media folks were eager to sell headlines. I'm glad the medis got out of the political pockets and made a decision to work for the public good for once. It is refreshing.


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## Sasha

Well if you're looking for a job in the MA area, now you know what companies will have openings.


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## JPINFV

Got away with something? I didn't realize that using college courses are against NREMT or CA EMSA policy, especially when they explicitly state that college courses are worth up to 24 hours of CME per each course. Similarly, if I recall correctly, there is no part of the NREMT recert that asks the training officer or medical director to affirm the 72 hour CME portion. The part that get's signed is in reference to them doing a skills test and/or providing QA/QI for the relative actions (OB, operations, paperwork, assessment and soemthing else if I recall correctly). There's also the option to affirm CPR certification instead of submitting copies, but that's optional.

As far as MA state policies, I'm not sure since I won't be recerting in MA anyways (I'm still debating on whether to let NREMT drop or not).


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## rescue99

JPINFV said:


> Got away with something? I didn't realize that using college courses are against NREMT or CA EMSA policy, especially when they explicitly state that college courses are worth up to 24 hours of CME per each course. Similarly, if I recall correctly, there is no part of the NREMT recert that asks the training officer or medical director to affirm the 72 hour CME portion. The part that get's signed is in reference to them doing a skills test and/or providing QA/QI for the relative actions (OB, operations, paperwork, assessment and soemthing else if I recall correctly). There's also the option to affirm CPR certification instead of submitting copies, but that's optional.
> 
> As far as MA state policies, I'm not sure since I won't be recerting in MA anyways (I'm still debating on whether to let NREMT drop or not).



Yeah,  you siad you did not turn in any documentation.I said, employers have a responsibility to ensure workers are all documented. If you were meaning state, the state has a different policy where they don't want paperwork until an audit is issued. Seems there is a bit of confusion....:blush:


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## JPINFV

My company never requested documentation. If they had requested it, I would have provided it. So documentation was neither sent to the state, nor my company, nor did the state nor NREMT request that my company affirm my CMEs.


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## mikeN

If you are wondering about suspension lengths
Permanent - running the whole thing
2 years - involved, handling money and the paperwork to give to Leo
9 months - signed the roster and used it towards recertification
45 days - signed the roster but didn't need it refresher to recert yet because another year was left on your ticket.


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## rescue99

mikeN said:


> If you are wondering about suspension lengths
> Permanent - running the whole thing
> 2 years - involved, handling money and the paperwork to give to Leo
> 9 months - signed the roster and used it towards recertification
> 45 days - signed the roster but didn't need it refresher to recert yet because another year was left on your ticket.



Bummer...9 months for defrauding the community, the state and their legitimate coworkers.


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## boingo

Yeah, OEMS is a completely useless entity will no willpower.  Perhaps the local taxpayers will cry fraud when they see how much $$$ was paid out on OT and in stipends for some of these clowns.  Maybe the AG's office can go after the individuals who took money from their employers to sign for a class they never attended, I doubt it though.


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## nemedic

boingo said:


> Maybe the AG's office can go after the individuals who took money from their employers to sign for a class they never attended, I doubt it though.



Well, it is an election year for Coakley, and after the loss in the Senate race, she could use a high profile case.........


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## TransportJockey

mikeN said:


> If you are wondering about suspension lengths
> Permanent - running the whole thing
> 2 years - involved, handling money and the paperwork to give to Leo
> 9 months - signed the roster and used it towards recertification
> 45 days - signed the roster but didn't need it refresher to recert yet because another year was left on your ticket.



Too bad it's not permanent for everyone involved


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## beandip4all

jtpaintball70 said:


> Too bad it's not permanent for everyone involved



agreed x1000

the whole thing is disgusting and leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth just thinking about it.


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## mikeN

Maybe I'm playing devil's advocate here and hate that some of my close friends did this, but some of these people were amazing EMT's and medics.  Some took shortcuts and some had personal things going on in their lives where they couldn't take off from work to take a refresher. Also it is screwed up when your scheduling department pretty much tells you tough :censored::censored::censored::censored: because you no one can cover your shifts to take these courses.   
Whatever, Mass OEMS KNEW this was happening the whole time.


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## DrParasite

mikeN said:


> Some took shortcuts and some had personal things going on in their lives where they couldn't take off from work to take a refresher.


BS flag!!!!! it's their responsibility to do it.  They knew it.  they knew what the requirements were.  if it's required for your job, don't take a shortcut. i believe you have 2-3 years until you need to recert, you are telling me they couldn't find any time during those 2-3 years to take a course, that was required as a condition of their job?  Where are your priorities if you can't find the time, and how come ensuring you have a job isn't at the top of that list?


mikeN said:


> Also it is screwed up when your scheduling department pretty much tells you tough :censored::censored::censored::censored: because you no one can cover your shifts to take these courses.


oh boo hoo!! everyone's scheduler sucks.  mine does, as does the scheduler at my former employer.    whether it's taking vacation time, doing a switch with someone on the opposite tour, or traveling a little bit to take THE REQUIRED CLASS TO KEEP YOUR JOB, we all to what we have to do.  Blaming someone else is just wrong and placing the blame on the wrong person.





mikeN said:


> Whatever, Mass OEMS KNEW this was happening the whole time.


BS flag!!!!!  they might have suspected, they might have had a hint, but I am confident they did not know.  If they did, than Mass is even more corrupt than NJ, and the entire OEMS staff should be fired and their operations should be outsourced to another state until new people can be hired.

I don't know if I would say every person involved should permanently lose their certs, but I think a 2 year suspension should be good (and I wish every agency would fire those were who were involved).  None of them will ever get hired by another company in Mass.  and even if they were good emts and medics, they still intentionally defrauded the state.  willingly and knowingly they received credit for a course that they did not attend.  There needs to be real consequences for these types of actions.  

Those who committed the crime, now needs to suffer the consequences.  And they won't get an once of sympathy from me


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## 1badassEMT-I

mikeN said:


> Maybe I'm playing devil's advocate here and hate that some of my close friends did this, but some of these people were amazing EMT's and medics.  Some took shortcuts and some had personal things going on in their lives where they couldn't take off from work to take a refresher. Also it is screwed up when your scheduling department pretty much tells you tough :censored::censored::censored::censored: because you no one can cover your shifts to take these courses.
> Whatever, Mass OEMS KNEW this was happening the whole time.



Still it is sad they did what they did. However it was still wrong!


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## medicdan

mikeN said:


> Whatever, Mass OEMS KNEW this was happening the whole time.



Mass OEMS functions with 4.5 FTEs. The person who's responsibility is Con-Ed and EMT Training is not an EMT and has never been, is not an educator and has never been, and has a work background as a corpsman in the Navy. Um...?

OEMS doesn't process any Con-Ed class applications or completed rosters between November and March/April every year, because they need the staff to handle recertification... They tell instructors to expect a 3-4 week turnaround time for class approval, and that we cannot advertise or hold classes until approved by the state. So... when I submit an application in mid-Nov for a class in Jan... and never hear back, should I hold the class, knowing I won't get my approval until April? What does that say about education?


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## beandip4all

mikeN said:


> Maybe I'm playing devil's advocate here and hate that some of my close friends did this, but some of these people were amazing EMT's and medics.


Look- I'm sorry that this happened to your friends, and I'm sure they're not "all bad" /entirely evil people either, however there are tons and tons of AMAZING EMTS AND MEDICS in this country and in that particular region who jump through all the proper hoops to stay certified and don't take short cuts. 

Certifications and CEs are a PITA, but the fact of the matter is that they are a significant component of our job.  When I switched careers into this industry, I couldn't believe the sheer amount of work (and $$$) it was to become certified.  Livescans, county cert, national reg, ambo license, DM51 form, etc and then staying on top of all that as they routinely expire!  IT SUCKS!!  But, there are so many wonderful aspects of this career that you suck it up and get them done.  In fact, I would almost venture that the PITA certification and recertification process is a good barrier-to-entry to weed out those among us who are NOT organized enough/willing to do the work.  

There are *plenty* of properly certified EMTs and medics- every bit as skilled and hardworking as your friends are- out there waiting to take the jobs of those who couldn't be bothered to maintain their certs.  And I'm sorry but this



mikeN said:


> some had personal things going on in their lives


is BS.  EVERYONE, at some point has "personal things" and various crap going on in their life that must be dealt with, and they still manage to get their mandatory stuff done- (or, they take necessary sabbatical and then recertify through proper channels when they come back).

Also:


mikeN said:


> where they couldn't take off from work to take a refresher. Also it is screwed up when your scheduling department pretty much tells you tough :censored::censored::censored::censored: because you no one can cover your shifts to take these courses.


Oh please!!  ::rolls eyes::  Do you have any idea of the sheer volume and variety of CE offerings out there?   They have night courses, weekend intensives, afternoons, online ones... there are a plethora of options to work with anyone's schedule.  Particular course doesn't work for your schedule?  Put in some friggin effort and another one that does.  

Finally, this:


mikeN said:


> Whatever, Mass OEMS KNEW this was happening the whole time.


is the worst logic of all.  Even *if* this is accurate, having a higher authority who is aware of something that is wrong and turn a blind eye doesn't make doing it any less wrong.  Perhaps it is time for you to re-calibrate your Ethics barometer.  

I still maintain my position that all those involved deserve to permanently lose their certs and their jobs.


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## feldy

Mass HAS known for a while that this has been going on but had a hard time building a case. Our OEMS does not have a big budget which is why is costs so much to get trained and retrained. there was a case a few years ago involving a PD who ran EMS and they were shut down (EMS no the PD). A Few people who faked their certs is a big deal but i think (and do not know for sure) that it would be easier for the local companies to deal with it and terminate on their own. But with the widespread of the problem the state had to step in. (also because some places were allowing it).

Also i agree if you cannot find time to do continuing ed...then maybe you should not be in a field where it is required. Maybe take it upon yourself and use youre days off to do this (i know i cant believe i said work on a day off) but really. One day's pay is a lot better penalty than having to retrain for an entire new field of work.


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## bstone

I just did a Basic refresher in MA. It was 95% online with a 4 hour practical review (which was really 2 hours). It's an approved refresher by both the MA OEMS and NREMT. Any claim that they didn't have time is BS.


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## feldy

bstone said:


> I just did a Basic refresher in MA. It was 95% online with a 4 hour practical review (which was really 2 hours). It's an approved refresher by both the MA OEMS and NREMT. Any claim that they didn't have time is BS.



just curious but where did u have to go for the practicals refresher in MA? Ill most likely ending up taking mine in Louisiana where i go to school and transfer them next summer.


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## bstone

feldy said:


> just curious but where did u have to go for the practicals refresher in MA? Ill most likely ending up taking mine in Louisiana where i go to school and transfer them next summer.



I used these folks:
http://www.mecta.com/

Yeah, I had to go to the practical with them in MA. But I live here, so it's ok.


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## butgorthegraceofgod

bstone said:


> I just did a Basic refresher in MA. It was 95% online with a 4 hour practical review (which was really 2 hours). It's an approved refresher by both the MA OEMS and NREMT. Any claim that they didn't have time is BS.



Then according to OEMS this is an invalid refresher because you did not stay for the required 4 hours.


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## bstone

butgorthegraceofgod said:


> Then according to OEMS this is an invalid refresher because you did not stay for the required 4 hours.



I invite you to report this to the OEMS.


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## butgorthegraceofgod

bstone said:


> I invite you to report this to the OEMS.



just saying there are alot of high horses around here.  some of the cases were exactly that, classes that took place but did not make the require hours.


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## Veneficus

rescue99 said:


> Yeah,  you siad you did not turn in any documentation.I said, employers have a responsibility to ensure workers are all documented. If you were meaning state, the state has a different policy where they don't want paperwork until an audit is issued. Seems there is a bit of confusion....:blush:



This is how recert works in Ohio,

You get a letter that has 2 check boxes, one says "I did complete the con ed requirements" one says "I did not"

You check the appropriate box and send it in. 

If you filled out "did not" you don't get recert.

If you filled out "I did" you get a recert.

But the rub is that 10% of all "I did's" get audited. If you get audited and you fail to provide the required documentations in a timely fasion, (I think 2-3 weeks if I am not mistaken) then you lose your cert for fraud. 

I never knew anyone personally who got caught, but I understand it is next to impossible to get your cert back after that without a very expensive process and lawyer. (while you are not working in EMS)

I just send in copies of my documentation with the form everytime to save the hassle, so I have no idea if I have ever been audited.


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## feldy

bstone said:


> I invite you to report this to the OEMS.



yes i agree, i know we all hate sitting in class for four hours but and extra two hours vs potentially getting your cert taken away is something i wouldnt mess with especially when OEMS is most likely over the next few years going to go through and audit all courses to make sure they are keeping to the standards of OEMS. 

Also keep in mind that you just openly admitted to not fully completing the required hours (while i know you expected to do so and are at no fault). However i would strongly suggest to be careful what you say here. It would really suck to get your ticket pulled.


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## bstone

feldy said:


> yes i agree, i know we all hate sitting in class for four hours but and extra two hours vs potentially getting your cert taken away is something i wouldnt mess with especially when OEMS is most likely over the next few years going to go through and audit all courses to make sure they are keeping to the standards of OEMS.
> 
> Also keep in mind that you just openly admitted to not fully completing the required hours (while i know you expected to do so and are at no fault). However i would strongly suggest to be careful what you say here. It would really suck to get your ticket pulled.



I would be interested if the OEMS would fault me for failing to continue to sit there for an additional 2 hours when that would entail sitting in an empty room by myself, long after the instructor and training materials left. I made every effort to comply fully with all laws and rules.


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## bstone

butgorthegraceofgod said:


> just saying there are alot of high horses around here.  some of the cases were exactly that, classes that took place but did not make the require hours.



They did? Every news article I read on the topic clearly stated that no classes took place but lists and certs were issued for recertification. You have information to the contrary?


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## butgorthegraceofgod

bstone said:


> I would be interested if the OEMS would fault me for failing to continue to sit there for an additional 2 hours when that would entail sitting in an empty room by myself, long after the instructor and training materials left. I made every effort to comply fully with all laws and rules.



during interviews oems told people that they knew the class did not make the hours and they should have reported the class to oems.  whether the instructor dismisses the class early they have no authority to do so as the class has to go the required hours to be valid.   and really you mean maybe the full story was in the paper holy cow can't believe that.


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## bstone

butgorthegraceofgod said:


> during interviews oems told people that they knew the class did not make the hours and they should have reported the class to oems.  whether the instructor dismisses the class early they have no authority to do so as the class has to go the required hours to be valid.   and really you mean maybe the full story was in the paper holy cow can't believe that.



Source? I did not read that in any of the news articles. Please provide quotes and proof.


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## feldy

i would hope that anyone who went to an acredited class but was released early would not get punished that does not seem fair...if they do not allow it to pass then at least get your money back b/c we all know that CEUs and licenses are really expenisive in MA and would hate to lose both and get nothing.

I myself have been let out of class early a few times but it was most likely b/c of a test that we were given x amount of time and i finished before time was up. Testing is part of the 120+ hours of the course so i see nothing wrong with that.


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## medicdan

As an instructor, if I complete the cognitive and psycho-motor objectives that I have submitted to OEMS, and they have approved before the allotted class end time, I spend the rest of the time answering questions and reviewing other EMS material or subjects. Students stay in the classroom for the entire allotted time, but we may not spend the entire time on approved materials. I then know for the next time either to add material and objectives to my courses, or decrease the amount of credit approved for. 

With all that said, the approval process for Con-Ed in MA is a complete and utter joke.


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## rescue99

emt.dan said:


> As an instructor, if I complete the cognitive and psycho-motor objectives that I have submitted to OEMS, and they have approved before the allotted class end time, I spend the rest of the time answering questions and reviewing other EMS material or subjects. Students stay in the classroom for the entire allotted time, but we may not spend the entire time on approved materials. I then know for the next time either to add material and objectives to my courses, or decrease the amount of credit approved for.
> 
> With all that said, the approval process for Con-Ed in MA is a complete and utter joke.



MI requires a minimum of 40 (might be 45) minutes out of every hour submitted be spent doing didactic/practical. Every IC signs her/his name when applying for these CE's therefore, agrees to abide by said policies. Per state regs, less than is considered an invalid CE. Do other states have a similar policy?

Secondly, no one was forced to lie about thier recerts. It is very doubtful the state suspended certs on a whim, without proper documentation to support the action. Not a single person has jumped up and proclaimed they are innocent. They've only cried not fair, not fair. Of course it's fair! Once the SAG gets his hands in the pot, there may be more than a cert suspension to worry about. 

These whiners would be doing themselves a solid being like Elmer Fudd.....be vewy, vewy quiet." The SAG could decide to hunt wabbit :>)


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