# George Floyd Paramedics



## Aprz (May 28, 2020)

I keep seeing people online debate about what they would've done if they were the paramedics that responded to George Floyd. Some people argue that they believe the scene was too unsafe or unpredictable to work the patient on scene. Some argue that some angry bystanders isn't a scene safety issue and they would've worked the patient on scene. It seems pretty split online and I am curious what EMTLife thinks.

If you haven't seen the video or do not want to watch it, here is a description. 



Spoiler



An officer is on the patient's neck while the patient is prone. The patient is awake and talking, he's telling the officers he cannot breathe, and bystanders are getting agitated. About 3-4 minutes before EMS arrives, it looks like the patient becomes unconscious and isn't breathing. The bystanders recognize that the patient may be in cardiac arrest and beg officers to check for a pulse, but the officers' actions do not change. When EMS arrive, they check the patient's pulse while he is still prone with an officer on his neck (a lot of people missed this and thought it was another officer, but Hennepin EMS looks like highway patrol/officers). The officer gets off the patient and they roll the patient while he is still handcuffed. The patient is loaded into the ambulance with no ventilation or chest compressions. There's no mention if the patient is in cardiac arrest yet or not.



*WARNING:* The video contains an officer on the patient, the patient saying he cannot breathe, angry bystanders, and ultimately the patient becoming unconscious and dying. The video is right here.

What do you think?

**** Please keep this civil and on topic (would you stay, go, or other?). This is not meant to be a discussion on police brutality or black lives, but assessing the paramedics' actions. I personally believe that there is no true right answer, it's a judgement call or preference, and I think there are pros and cons to each way. It's hard to tell when you don't work in a certain area (eg might feel fine working in Mountain View, CA with low crime rate, but not fine in Oakland, CA with high crime rate). It looks like resource is limited, and maybe some of us would be fine if we had more hands on deck (eg fire on scene as well), but since it didn't look like fire was on scene, those paramedics were by themselves. Feel free to add your thoughts on this or conditions that might make you change your mind on staying or going. Hopefully this will prepare you when you might end up in this situation, recorded, and judged by the rest of the world for your action or perceived lack of. ****


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## GMCmedic (May 28, 2020)

Taking off to the hospital leaves me with fewer resources and the science says stay and play. I'd probably do just that, though I didn't watch the video but from reports ive read, the crowd only wanted help for the man.


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## CCCSD (May 28, 2020)

You ALWAYS leave an unsafe scene. ALWAYS.


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## Aprz (May 28, 2020)

@GMCmedic I tried to put in the options that you could just simply move him away from the scene without transporting.


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## ffemt8978 (May 28, 2020)

CCCSD said:


> You ALWAYS leave an unsafe scene. ALWAYS.


If you are able to. 

 You've been in this field long enough to know making absolute statements like always and never will have exceptions.


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## E tank (May 28, 2020)

Not to derail, but who called the ambulance? From what I can tell, he was still being restrained and conscious by about the time the call would have been dispatched. Seems like the cop felt the need to continue the restraint even after the guy went down. Hard to say but of course there's got to be a lot more to the story.


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## DesertMedic66 (May 28, 2020)

This is definitely a call/situation that I do not want to Monday night quarterback. All we know is what was shown on the video which may not include the entire account for what happened to include events prior to and during. The ambulance crew on scene had way more information and was able to get a sense for what was occurring and also have knowledge of the local area and issues that area may or may not have. 

 The only thing I will say is that per the fire department’s report when they finally arrived at the ambulance the patient was on the auto-pulse and intubated with vascular access in progress and a possible defib attempt already made which are all appropriate treatments.


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## VentMonkey (May 29, 2020)

All I got is this:

As a minority kid who grew up pretty close to all of the post-Rodney King riots malee, I never understood the rioting. Decades later, I still don’t.

Regarding what/ should/ could have been done. It’s really not helping. People are as confused as ever.

The last thing that needs to be done is question, guess, or play Monday Morning QB to the poor medics tasked with this unfortunate assignment.


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## Aprz (May 29, 2020)

Remember to stay on topic, stay or go? This is not to hate on the paramedics. The decision online I've seen are pretty split and I do not fault them for his death; I think the outcome likely would've been the same. I heard the same as @DesertMedic66  that they already established an airway, vascular access, and had an autopulse. I think they pulled away from the scene for safety, but met with fire somewhere else for more hands on deck.


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## ffemt8978 (May 29, 2020)

Aprz said:


> Remember to stay on topic, stay or go? This is not to hate on the paramedics. The decision online I've seen are pretty split and I do not fault them for his death; I think the outcome likely would've been the same. I heard the same as @DesertMedic66  that they already established an airway, vascular access, and had an autopulse. I think they pulled away from the scene for safety, but met with fire somewhere else for more hands on deck.


To be honest, I had previously removed a thread posting this video because it was just posted with no comments to tie it in to EMS.  I let this thread stay up because you made it EMS related, so as long as the discussion remains civil, I'm willing to allow comments about the treatments and justifications.

To everyone posting in this thread this the only warning: if you feel the need to bash on the victim, LEO's, EMS or FD personnel; I'm sure you can find an audience over at Reddit because it won't be tolerated here.


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## DrParasite (May 29, 2020)

Hell no I am not staying.  You have a scene that is deteriorating in front of your eyes..... what good does it do to treat the patient with an angry crowd surrounding you?  This is a scoop and run situation, and get to a location where you have a little more safety.  around the block, away from the mob, etc.  Still got to do your job, but not surrounded by a foaming at the mouth mob.


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## E tank (May 29, 2020)

DesertMedic66 said:


> The only thing I will say is that per the fire department’s report when they finally arrived at the ambulance the patient was on the auto-pulse and intubated with vascular access in progress and a possible defib attempt already made which are all appropriate treatments.



From the looks of things, that would have been one gnarly intubation in the hospital let alone in the back of an ambulance. Good on them if they did get it.


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## MonkeyArrow (May 29, 2020)

I read somewhere that the scene was 10 blocks up the road from a hospital and 20 blocks from Hennepin County Medical Center. Given that, the scene conditions, and my guess that securing an airway would be important in an asphyxiation/hypoxic arrest and difficult given the mechanism, I’d like to say that I’d just scoop and run to the nearest ER and perform one-man compressions in the back for minute or two minute transport time. However, I don’t think there are really any wrong options here, and the crew on the scene would have a much better feel for the situation than any of us do.


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## hometownmedic5 (May 30, 2020)

Step one- Get you, your partner, and the fella later to be known as Floyd into the truck as soon as physically possible, preferably with one of those fellas with the firearms. It doesn't have to be fancy or pretty. It's a rapid extrication. The building is on fire, the car is on fire, the train is coming down the tracks, pick your favorite. Grip it and rip it, let's go. The truck isn't some utopia of safety, but it's a start.

Step two- Either work the code like a code, or call an audible and scramble; but make a choice and do it. If the scene is that hot and you need to clear the scene before you do anything, it sounds like any reasonable safety distance is going to be damn near a hospitals ambulance apron. If the scene isn't that hot, then get to work.


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## cruiseforever (Jun 1, 2020)

They were requested Code 2 by PD will he was still conscious.  When he went unconscious they were upgraded to Code 3.


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## hometownmedic5 (Jun 2, 2020)

I'm not certain the response particulars are relevant in the examination of the paramedics' role in this thing. I know that I for example am not given a choice in my response mode. If I'm told to respond with L+S and I don't and someone dies or suffers disability that can be tied to a response delay, I'm negligent. If I'm told to proceed with traffic and I go into business for myself and upgrade to L+S and I'm in an accident, I'm negligent. With some available AVL systems, when your warning system is activated, dispatch is alerted. I have seen such alerts take the form of a change in icon color, blinking, etc; but it is a thing that can be done.

The bottom line is that, if you're in a system that has rules and the capacity to monitor their compliance, you do what you're told if you want to have a job tomorrow.


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## DrParasite (Jun 2, 2020)

hometownmedic5 said:


> The bottom line is that


you can be found negligent anytime you crash.   or if something happens.  the difference is, if you are following your company's policies, and their directions, they should take the brunt of the liability.  If you deviate from what they tell you to do that, they can put all the liability on you, because you were acting on your own, and going against what they told you.

I don't care what PD says, what dispatch says, what the caller says, etc.  I follow MY AGENCY's written response protocol, and we responding according to that; our response protocol is not dictated by the wishes of the requesters.  And if I chose to deviate from that, I am permitted to (provider discretion), however in general, I will follow my agency's response protocol, and use that to determine my response mode.


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## Aprz (Jun 2, 2020)

I don't think how you respond to a call is relevant to the treatment and transport decision.


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## Tigger (Jun 2, 2020)

I think I'd stay on scene but it would be in the back of the ambulance. Working arrests in the middle of the street is making things more difficult than it has to be for any scene. I would do my very best to minimize breaks in compressions for sure and if the Lucas was available (I believe it was) I'd try to get on it before any movement.


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## hometownmedic5 (Jun 2, 2020)

DrParasite said:


> you can be found negligent anytime you crash.   or if something happens.  the difference is, if you are following your company's policies, and their directions, they should take the brunt of the liability.  If you deviate from what they tell you to do that, they can put all the liability on you, because you were acting on your own, and going against what they told you.
> 
> I don't care what PD says, what dispatch says, what the caller says, etc.  I follow MY AGENCY's written response protocol, and we responding according to that; our response protocol is not dictated by the wishes of the requesters.  And if I chose to deviate from that, I am permitted to (provider discretion), however in general, I will follow my agency's response protocol, and use that to determine my response mode.



You can only be found negligent if you are....negligent(duty, breach, damages, proximation etc). Proceeding with due regard and an accident happens isn't negligence. I may still be responsible for the accident, but I'm not negligent. No, really, that matters. 

Accidents happen. Your insurance pays, your premium goes up, life goes on(to a point). Add negligence into the matter, and now we're talking civil tort, and not a new fender and some P&S money. Add wanto and cognizant negligence to the mix and we're talking 7 or 8 figures.

"SO your dispatcher told you to proceed with traffic, but you activated your warning system anyway. You struck my clients now deceased husbands car, killing him. Widow, fatherless children, patent negligence. We ask that the jury award damages in the amount of 10 million dollars"......


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## Aprz (Jun 2, 2020)

Tigger said:


> I think I'd stay on scene but it would be in the back of the ambulance. Working arrests in the middle of the street is making things more difficult than it has to be for any scene. I would do my very best to minimize breaks in compressions for sure and if the Lucas was available (I believe it was) I'd try to get on it before any movement.


Do you think it would be reasonable to maybe just slide him behind the police vehicle? I feel like that would be less interruption in compression. Lifting him onto the gurney and lifting the gurney into the ambulance would be interruption. The back of the ambulance is a pretty small place to be working an arrest. Pro side of course is getting away from worked up bystanders.

I've worked a couple of arrests on the side of the street and feel like they went pretty well short of lack of shade.


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## Tigger (Jun 3, 2020)

Aprz said:


> Do you think it would be reasonable to maybe just slide him behind the police vehicle? I feel like that would be less interruption in compression. Lifting him onto the gurney and lifting the gurney into the ambulance would be interruption. The back of the ambulance is a pretty small place to be working an arrest. Pro side of course is getting away from worked up bystanders.
> 
> I've worked a couple of arrests on the side of the street and feel like they went pretty well short of lack of shade.


A Lucas device would eliminate most of all do that.

Without any scene concerns, I’d start on the ground for sure. I’d probably skip my usual ROSC timeout and go straight to the truck if that occurred. Also there is no way any cop around here would let us leave leave a body in the road following these circumstances. Right wrong indifferent, we’re going to have to put this person in the ambulance at some point. Sure you could say I should stand up to them in this case, but that’s not the hill I’m dying on.


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## DrParasite (Jun 3, 2020)

hometownmedic5 said:


> "SO your dispatcher told you to proceed with traffic, but you activated your warning system anyway. You struck my clients now deceased husbands car, killing him. Widow, fatherless children, patent negligence. We ask that the jury award damages in the amount of 10 million dollars"......


you have not explained where the negligence is in your example.  not only that, but any MVA with a fatality involving a commercial vehicle can result in a lawsuit, regardless of whether you followed dispatch's directions or not.  so your entire first sentence is irrelevant.  even if there isn't a death, lawsuits can (and have) been filed to recoup damages.
 looking at your own statement:


hometownmedic5 said:


> You can only be found negligent if you are....negligent(duty, breach, damages, proximation etc). Proceeding with due regard and an accident happens isn't negligence. I may still be responsible for the accident, but I'm not negligent. No, really, that matters.


You are focusing on the wrong part: where the "liability" falls is the important part, not the definition of negligence.  If you are following your agency's protocols, then the agency should have the most liability.  however, if you are going against the agency's protocols, then they can say they aren't liable, because you were acting on your own, and it all falls on you.


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## DrParasite (Jun 3, 2020)

Aprz said:


> The back of the ambulance is a pretty small place to be working an arrest. Pro side of course is getting away from worked up bystanders.


I've worked plenty of arrests in the back of the ambulance.  sometimes the patient coded on us in the truck, other times we moved the arrest from the scene to the truck for transport to the ER (thankfully, we don't do this anymore, and usually under very specific circumstances)


Aprz said:


> I've worked a couple of arrests on the side of the street and feel like they went pretty well short of lack of shade.


I'm not going to work a code on the side of the street with an angry crowd forming around me.  a run of the mill roadway, sure, why not?  but out in public, with that angry crowd following an arrest, that's a recipe for disaster.  no way am I working that on scene, because unless the patient gets up and tells everyone he feels better, it is likely to put all of my EMS colleagues in the same bad light as what the MPD officers are going through right now.


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## DragonClaw (Jun 4, 2020)

So there was a crowd yes.  And with my limited experience, I say treat on scene.

That dude was apneic and pulseless . He needed CPR 5 minutes ago (Figuratively. I didn't count the seconds and we won't know the exact second he died)

Any time waited is going to increase the chances of him staying dead. LUCAS anyone?

You have 4 cops there.  They're not medical professionals, so once EMS makes scene, they should keep it secured.

The crowd was not trying to rip Floyd from their grasp, they weren't throwing rocks, they weren't marching on Rome past the Rubicon. They wanted him checked medically.

Once medics show up and the see he's getting immediate help, that would probably do wonders for their justified concerns.

Then again, one could have a gun and just start blasting and then you've maybe got two dead medics who would then would have been told not to go because the scene wasn't safe.

But take him to the ambo as you work on him and not make it look like you just are picking him up for the ME. It looked more like a corpse removal than patient care.

My answer will probably differ once I have street experience and actually rely on LE.

Edit: Though it's not our job to secure a scene, developing good rapport with bystanders may not be a bad play. Generally EMS/Fire don't get as much crap and aren't usually targeted. A Different kind of public trust.  

So if there's something reasonable you can do to help show that you're here to help and it's no longer "Nobody is checking him" "He's not breathing" kind of comments, then maybe they'll realize it's "over" and they can simmer down?

We use de-escalation techniques all the time with patients and family.  Why not assure them their concerns are heard? 

That cop was like "Yeah we checked he's fine" but they didn't really do anything and nothing changed. The crowd knew that. 

I'm not saying you have to put on a show but showing you're professional in your job goes a long ways.


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## DrParasite (Jun 4, 2020)

oh, sweet child......





DragonClaw said:


> So there was a crowd yes.  And with my limited experience, I say treat on scene.


you've clearly never worked the scene with a potentially violent crowd.


DragonClaw said:


> That dude was apneic and pulseless. He needed CPR 5 minutes ago (Figuratively. I didn't count the seconds and we won't know the exact second he died)
> 
> Any time waited is going to increase the chances of him staying dead. LUCAS anyone?


that is a very fair statement.  and an accurate statement.





DragonClaw said:


> You have 4 cops there.  They're not medical professionals, so once EMS makes a scene, they should keep it secured.


textbook answer: once the cops are on scene, the scene is safe.  real word answer: 4 cops in patrol gear against a potentially hostile crowd?  they are calling for additional units on a rush, and doing whatever they can do to make sure no one gets hurt, including the cops and EMS.





DragonClaw said:


> The crowd was not trying to rip Floyd from their grasp, they weren't throwing rocks, they weren't marching on Rome past the Rubicon. They wanted him checked medically.


and what do you think would have happened if EMS ended up pronouncing him as DOA?  The crowd wanted EMS to save him, but if EMS didn't, the crowd could have turned on EMS.





DragonClaw said:


> But take him to the ambo as you work on him and not make it look like you just are picking him up for the ME. It looked more like a corpse removal than patient care.


I don't like working with an audience.  esp an already hostile audience.  esp on a sick patient.  I would have treated this like a scoop and run, get everyone off the scene as quick as possible, to a more secure location (even if that means just around the corner).





DragonClaw said:


> So if there's something reasonable you can do to help show that you're here to help and it's no longer "Nobody is checking him" "He's not breathing" kind of comments, then maybe they'll realize it's "over" and they can simmer down?


yeah... if you save the guys life, sure... you will be called heroes.  if you don't, the crowd will turn on you too.


DragonClaw said:


> We use de-escalation techniques all the time with patients and family.  Why not assure them their concerns are heard?


Because EMS has other concerns than to calm down the crowd when they have a sick patient?  it's also much different to use de-escalation tactics on a small family who knows and understands the situation, compared to a crowd of random strangers that are getting angrier by the moment,

This was a bad situation.  a  lot of the textbook rules don't apply, or wouldn't work.  yes, he needed CPR, yes he was dead or dying, but this was a no-win situation for the EMS crew, who on social media were being called cops with no medical training because they are in uniform and wear vests. It's a bad situation, but staying on scene with the crowd around you isn't going to make anything better.


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## DragonClaw (Jun 4, 2020)

DrParasite said:


> oh, sweet child......you've clearly never worked the scene with a potentially violent crowd.
> that is a very fair statement.  and an accurate statement.textbook answer: once the cops are on scene, the scene is safe.  real word answer: 4 cops in patrol gear against a potentially hostile crowd?  they are calling for additional units on a rush, and doing whatever they can do to make sure no one gets hurt, including the cops and EMS.and what do you think would have happened if EMS ended up pronouncing him as DOA?  The crowd wanted EMS to save him, but if EMS didn't, the crowd could have turned on EMS.I don't like working with an audience.  esp an already hostile audience.  esp on a sick patient.  I would have treated this like a scoop and run, get everyone off the scene as quick as possible, to a more secure location (even if that means just around the corner).yeah... if you save the guys life, sure... you will be called heroes.  if you don't, the crowd will turn on you too.
> Because EMS has other concerns than to calm down the crowd when they have a sick patient?  it's also much different to use de-escalation tactics on a small family who knows and understands the situation, compared to a crowd of random strangers that are getting angrier by the moment,
> 
> This was a bad situation.  a  lot of the textbook rules don't apply, or wouldn't work.  yes, he needed CPR, yes he was dead or dying, but this was a no-win situation for the EMS crew, who on social media were being called cops with no medical training because they are in uniform and wear vests. It's a bad situation, but staying on scene with the crowd around you isn't going to make anything better.



So yes, even less about people pleasing, it's a balance. That dude needed compressions asap. 

And like I'm very honest about, I have a small amount of experience in EMS and less in emergent, terse, and hostile scenes. 

That's why I openly stated that I'll probably have a different answer later. Not having been in that situation I can't really imagine how bad it could get.  

I know sometimes people start suhooting but it's unheard of (or I haven't heard of it) of EMS getting outright attacked. 

Sure post a few clips on recent or past attacks, but generally we're not the target. 

Correct me if I'm wrong as you usually do. 

I guess it's just the "how long did he go without compressions" is what gets me.


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## cruiseforever (Jun 4, 2020)

DragonClaw said:


> You have 4 cops there.  They're not medical professionals, so once EMS makes scene, they should keep it secured.



The cops cleared the minute EMS left.  They knew it was not a good place to stay.

I would have treated it just like an active shooter scene.  Go in get the pt. and move to a safer spot.


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## DrParasite (Jun 4, 2020)

DragonClaw said:


> I know sometimes people start suhooting but it's unheard of (or I haven't heard of it) of EMS getting outright attacked.
> 
> Sure post a few clips on recent or past attacks, but generally we're not the target.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong as you usually do.


a 2 minute google searched revealed the following... enjoy the reading








						Protecting EMS Personnel from Assault - JEMS
					

Amid reports of high rates of assault-related injuries among emergency medical services (EMS) personnel, anecdotal evidence suggests that many EMS agencies, and individual EMS professionals, are using, or considering the purchase of, a variety of solutions.



					www.jems.com
				



.









						IAFF: Violence against fire, EMS personnel 'never acceptable'
					

The union condemned those who have "interrupted" peaceful protests and directed violence at firefighters and EMS providers




					www.ems1.com
				




https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/ems/data.html (pay special attention to the violence category)









						Denver ambulances attacked during riots
					

Denver Health said its EMS providers are wearing ballistic vests and helmets as a precaution




					www.ems1.com
				








__





						NFPA Journal - The Toll of Violence, Jan Feb 2019
					

Violence against EMTs and paramedics is at an all time high. What it means, and how to stop it.



					www.nfpa.org
				












						No additional jail time for inmate who assaulted EMT, jumped out of ambulance
					

William Swagger, 25, pleaded guilty, was sentenced with credit for time served and will be on probation for three years




					www.ems1.com
				












						International Survey of Violence Against EMS Personnel: Physical Violence Report - PubMed
					

In order to develop and implement measures to increase safety, EMS personnel must be involved with the research and implementation process. Furthermore, EMS agencies must work with university researchers to quantify agency-level risks and to develop, test, and implement interventions in such a...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				












						Implementing a training program to prevent EMS assaults
					

Learn how ATCEMS identified EMS training goals and implemented an assault reporting function to protect providers from violence




					www.ems1.com
				





DragonClaw said:


> I guess it's just the "how long did he go without compressions" is what gets me.


There is a lot messed up about the situation.  While I agree with your concerns, what gets me if how the longer the crews stay on scene, the higher the chances of the crowd getting violent with them.


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## DragonClaw (Jun 4, 2020)

DrParasite said:


> a 2 minute google searched revealed the following... enjoy the reading
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes and I understand the chance of conflict goes up.  And being the less experienced of the group for now, I'm being the biggest Monday morning QB.

I've never been in any situation that volatile.

It's just hard when Floyd waited so long for medical help and the scene/bystanders are not exactly placated and calm in a low crime area. 

If they'd brought a LUCAS with them, just slap it on (after confirming he needed it which he did) and load and go. But I don't know who has what available to them and when.

It's just a crappy situation on a crappy situation that none of us can change.


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## DesertMedic66 (Jun 4, 2020)

DragonClaw said:


> Yes and I understand the chance of conflict goes up.  And being the less experienced of the group for now, I'm being the biggest Monday morning QB.
> 
> I've never been in any situation that volatile.
> 
> ...


They did have the Lucas device with them. When the fire department arrived at the ambulance location the Lucas was already on the him.


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## DragonClaw (Jun 4, 2020)

DesertMedic66 said:


> They did have the Lucas device with them. When the fire department arrived at the ambulance location the Lucas was already on the him.



Is there any official time on when EMS got there and how long it took for them to start compressions?

I mean it just seems like "Well he's been down for oh so long so it doesn't really matter when we start compressions because he's probably not getting ROSC and I'd rather not get mobbed or shot"

Then again, even if the second EMS got there they started compressions and even if they did get rosc, he might have cerebral ischema

Does it every matter (compressions after retreating rather than before) that point? Is it valid to say that?


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## DesertMedic66 (Jun 4, 2020)

DragonClaw said:


> Is there any official time on when EMS got there and how long it took for them to start compressions?
> 
> I mean it just seems like "Well he's been down for oh so long so it doesn't really matter when we start compressions because he's probably not getting ROSC and I'd rather not get mobbed or shot"
> 
> ...


I doubt the EMS run report will become public.

I also doubt the EMS crew was thinking “ Well he's been down for oh so long so it doesn't really matter when we start compressions because he's probably not getting ROSC and I'd rather not get mobbed or shot”. 

Without knowing all the information and without actually being on scene all you are doing is playing Monday night QB and trying to toss a crew under the bus for what you may have viewed as a failure to act. It’s easy to look back at a call and possible think about something you would do differently but when you are the actual one there, things are vastly different. 

Could they have worked him on scene? Sure. Could something bad have happened because they stayed on scene? Sure. Could nothing bad have happened because they stayed on scene? Sure. They were not there during the entire event so the information they have is very limited.


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## DragonClaw (Jun 4, 2020)

DesertMedic66 said:


> I doubt the EMS run report will become public.
> 
> I also doubt the EMS crew was thinking “ Well he's been down for oh so long so it doesn't really matter when we start compressions because he's probably not getting ROSC and I'd rather not get mobbed or shot”.
> 
> ...



Let me be clear.  I'm NOT throwing anyone under the bus.  

It seems very much risk/reward and if a medic gets hurt, too hurt to help, they're far worse off and they know that more than me. 

But if it was them getting on scene and seeing him code vs 4 minutes or more would the answer be the same?

I'm genuinely just trying to kinda understand these things so if I'm in that situation I can have something to think on more than guessing.  Do right by you and your partner and the pt. 

I'm not saying they didn't.


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## CCCSD (Jun 4, 2020)

That crew should be indicted for failure to save him. They clearly caused his death by failing to act. Revoke their licensure, sue them, jail them since it was obviously biased of them.

Oh. Wait, that would be prejudging...right?


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## DragonClaw (Jun 4, 2020)

CCCSD said:


> That crew should be indicted for failure to save him. They clearly caused his death by failing to act. Revoke their licensure, sue them, jail them since it was obviously biased of them.
> 
> Oh. Wait, that would be prejudging...right?



What even is your problem, man?


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## VentMonkey (Jun 4, 2020)

I’m sticking to my original post.

I also agree with @DesertMedic66. All we’re doing is playing Monday Morning QB to a set of paramedics who most likely have a long legal road ahead of them.

What any of us “would have done” is all hypothetical until we’re thrust into that environment ourselves. Nothing I wish on any of us.

I hope this thread gets locked because I don’t think anything of consequence will come of it. With that, time to “unwatch”.


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## ffemt8978 (Jun 4, 2020)

Amd that's enough of this thread.  Everyone was warned that bashing on those who were there wouldn't be tolerated.


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