# parents



## needinthenatreg (Nov 30, 2008)

I'm looking for some insight on a nat reg Q.....it deals with a postictal child and the parents do not want the kid to go.  It's nat reg so I'm looking for the most right answer.  thanks all, K


----------



## Hastings (Dec 1, 2008)

needinthenatreg said:


> I'm looking for some insight on a nat reg Q.....it deals with a postictal child and the parents do not want the kid to go.  It's nat reg so I'm looking for the most right answer.  thanks all, K



Call medical control and explain the situation.


----------



## medicdan (Dec 1, 2008)

A--B--Cs
They should be your first thought, as long as you stick with them, you'll never go wrong.


----------



## JPINFV (Dec 1, 2008)

emt-student said:


> A--B--Cs
> They should be your first thought, as long as you stick with them, you'll never go wrong.





ABCs in a medicolegal question?


----------



## medicdan (Dec 1, 2008)

JPINFV said:


> ABCs in a medicolegal question?








:blush:
DOH! Excuse me, I didnt fully reading the OP. Sorry!!









P.S. I love Chimpie's site!


----------



## KEVD18 (Dec 1, 2008)

you need consent to transport. in the event of a minor child, you need the consent of the parent. if the parent isnt present, you can take the child under implied consent, but if they are on scene and say no, its no. regardless of how you may personally feel about it, the parent has the legal right to refuse care that could prove to be harmful to the child. 

what your asking medical control to do is give you permission to kidnap a patient. md's only give that order in the case of psychiatric cases, which this isnt.

bottom line is you cant take a patient against their will, regardless of how you fell about it.


----------



## Hastings (Dec 1, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> you need consent to transport. in the event of a minor child, you need the consent of the parent. if the parent isnt present, you can take the child under implied consent, but if they are on scene and say no, its no. regardless of how you may personally feel about it, the parent has the legal right to refuse care that could prove to be harmful to the child.
> 
> what your asking medical control to do is give you permission to kidnap a patient. md's only give that order in the case of psychiatric cases, which this isnt.
> 
> bottom line is you cant take a patient against their will, regardless of how you fell about it.



No, what I'm asking medical control to do is clear the patient for an AMA. And this situation is pretty common with parents of epileptic children, for instance. Most doctors will be fine signing off on a refusal of transport as long as you've covered your bases and ensured that the child is now in fine shape.


----------



## KEVD18 (Dec 1, 2008)

oops, sorry. im not familiar with system where you need permission to get a refusal. up in ma, if they dont want to go, we dont need permission


----------



## jochi1543 (Dec 1, 2008)

We take the kid if we think s/he needs medical attention, even if parents refuse care. All the JW drama recently led to them saying parents cannot refuse care for their minor children. Not to mention, parents may be trying to cover up signs of abuse. If necessary, police can become involved in order to take the child to the hospital. But it's up to you to decide whether a transport is indeed a life and death issue. If the kid's postictal, but has already been diagnosed with a seizure disorder, is taking medication, and is monitored by a physician for it, transport against the parents' decision with police and yelling matches and everything might not be the best thing to do. If it's the kid's first time having a seizure, then yes, you are probably going to take him/her in against the parents' wishes.


----------



## KEVD18 (Dec 1, 2008)

jochi1543 said:


> We take the kid if we think s/he needs medical attention, even if parents refuse care. All the JW drama recently led to them saying parents cannot refuse care for their minor children. Not to mention, parents may be trying to cover up signs of abuse. If necessary, police can become involved in order to take the child to the hospital. But it's up to you to decide whether a transport is indeed a life and death issue. If the kid's postictal, but has already been diagnosed with a seizure disorder, is taking medication, and is monitored by a physician for it, transport against the parents' decision with police and yelling matches and everything might not be the best thing to do. If it's the kid's first time having a seizure, then yes, you are probably going to take him/her in against the parents' wishes.



in the us, that would be kidnapping.


----------



## Clibby (Dec 2, 2008)

Outside of the NREMT, if you feel like the child is in danger and the parents refuse to let the child be treated then LEOs can always take them into protective custody; then you can transport. It very rare, however, that a parent won't want you to treat their child in a true emergency. Legally in Massachusets, KEVD18 is spot on; that's kidnapping if there's no consent.


----------



## Ridryder911 (Dec 2, 2008)

Clibby said:


> *Outside of the NREMT*, if you feel like the child is in danger and the parents refuse to let the child be treated then LEOs can always take them into protective custody; then you can transport. It very rare, however, that a parent won't want you to treat their child in a true emergency. Legally in Massachusets, KEVD18 is spot on; that's kidnapping if there's no consent.



Again, NREMT has *NO* standards!  Sorry, but everyone needs to learn the business. NREMT is *ONLY* a testing agency, they follow *NHTSA curriculum and standards * which is the *National Standards* (including Massachusetts).



R/r 911


----------



## KEVD18 (Dec 2, 2008)

also, much like md's, leo's are not going to be to thrilled with pcing a baby/small child without damn good cause.

again, no matter how much you may disagree with it, parents have the right to refuse care on behalf of their child even if said action(inaction) has the possibility of causing irreperable harm to the child.


----------



## needinthenatreg (Dec 4, 2008)

*thanks all*

Thanks all for the discussion.  What is the NREMT looking for?  What is the BEST answer.  I would have to agree with the fact that without consent of the folks...kidnapping.  All that matters to me now is what are the higher ups in Columbus OH looking for.  Thanks again, K


----------

