# Sleeping on the job:how do you do it?



## EMTMichael (Nov 22, 2011)

I'm an EMT in NJ. I work for a private ambulance company. We do not take up house in any squad buildings or physical locations. So we supposed to park in a spot that easy to access main highways and are within proximity of our facilities and hospitals. When it comes time to nap, there's only one place to sleep....the ambulance. What do you like to use when you sleep to make you comfortable...do you bring your own pillow, blankets...other sleeping aids? Just curious how everyone else finds comfort in the front ...or back of the rig.


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## medicnick83 (Nov 22, 2011)

I personally can't sleep while on shift, even when it's quiet, the maximum time I'll sleep for is 1 hour and then when I wake up to goto a call it's like I'm worse off than before I went to sleep so I've basically stopped sleeping.

Metro EMS (in ZA) have Toyota Quantums and VW Crafters.

In the Quantums, you can't really sleep in the front, unless you really small, so they put down clean sheets and sleep on the stretchers.
In the Crafters you can curl up nicely.

But like I said, I normally monitor and let my crews sleep (when I'm 3rd)


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## STXmedic (Nov 22, 2011)

How I do it:
-Place head against window
-Pass the F out


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## akflightmedic (Nov 22, 2011)

If you are in the ambulance for 12 hours or less, why the hell are you worried about a nap?


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## fast65 (Nov 22, 2011)

I usually try to sleep for at least 5 hours when I'm on shift...of course I work 24's and have a station, so yeah.


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## medicnick83 (Nov 22, 2011)

fast65 said:


> I work 24's and have a station, so yeah.



I've worked a 24 hour shift twice.
I'll never do that again, I was finished by the 30th hour.


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## AlphaButch (Nov 22, 2011)

Currently have a station with cots and a couch, so not a problem now. 

Before, I worked it like Poetic;



PoeticInjustice said:


> How I do it:
> -Place head against window
> -Pass the F out



Made sure we were parked someplace out of sight and dark as possible. 

<-- Hates poorly executed SSM programs.


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## Sasha (Nov 22, 2011)

I curl up in the seat, grab a pillow from the back and go ahead and sleep. or i'll go put some sheets down on the stretcher and go snooze.

I'm not WORRIED about a nap, but if I'm holding and I'm a little sleepy, I'm gonna sleep.


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## akflightmedic (Nov 22, 2011)

Napping in a seat is one thing but pre planning with bringing a pillow and blankie, maybe some PJs and warm milk too...

Seriously, any shift 12 hours or less you should not need to snooze. Will you get drowsy, absolutely but this is your job. Night shift or day shift, it is your responsibility to be well rested in order to be alert for the entire 12 hours.

It is amazing how in the EMS culture we discuss naps as they are a right instead of a privilege we get to sneak every now and again.


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## Seaglass (Nov 22, 2011)

I'm an insomniac, so I usually just study or goof off online. If I can get to sleep, though, I will. 



akflightmedic said:


> Napping in a seat is one thing but pre planning with bringing a pillow and blankie, maybe some PJs and warm milk too...
> 
> Seriously, any shift 12 hours or less you should not need to snooze. Will you get drowsy, absolutely but this is your job. Night shift or day shift, it is your responsibility to be well rested in order to be alert for the entire 12 hours.
> 
> It is amazing how in the EMS culture we discuss naps as they are a right instead of a privilege we get to sneak every now and again.



Ideally, I'd make them a right on any job with long, irregular shifts and a high potential for serious accidents. For 12s, I can see your gripe, but only if that's the provider's sole committment. 

Realistically, trying to make a living in this field often means lots of overtime, multiple jobs, and no chance to establish a steady circadian rhythm. There are only so many times you can check the rig. Studying's pointless when you're too tired to retain the information. You're much more likely to make a mistake (driving or working with the patient) when you're tired. So, if the other priorities are done, I think it's your responsibility to take a nap.


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## STXmedic (Nov 22, 2011)

For 24s I make sure I get a good night sleep the night before, planning on running all day and night. If we're chilling at the station, I will absolutely jump on the chance to relax/nap/sleep. I don't think it's a right, but it's definitely a nice priveledge.


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## Sasha (Nov 22, 2011)

akflightmedic said:


> Napping in a seat is one thing but pre planning with bringing a pillow and blankie, maybe some PJs and warm milk too...
> 
> Seriously, any shift 12 hours or less you should not need to snooze. Will you get drowsy, absolutely but this is your job. Night shift or day shift, it is your responsibility to be well rested in order to be alert for the entire 12 hours.
> 
> It is amazing how in the EMS culture we discuss naps as they are a right instead of a privilege we get to sneak every now and again.



Hahaha. Sure, that's great in theory. Not so great when you're on an 8a to 8p, work holds you over three hours and you live 30-45 minutes away, when you have to be back at 8a the next morning which is the schedule THEY assigned you.

What is wrong with bringing along pillows and a blanket in case you get a chance to sleep? I bring along books and other crap to do at work... Do I expect to? Nope. But if I get the chance too I will absolutely jump at the chance and am glad to be prepared.


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## mycrofft (Nov 22, 2011)

*Fatigue plus commute time are a real factor.*

 I have spent a few three hour nights at home because I could afford the gas but not the cost of a motel close to work (well, Guard). I also can vividly remember falling asleep as I pulled into my driveway leading down into my garage once.

I heard of a guy hiding and taking a nap in the engine compartment of a crash firefighting truck once and the bells rang them out...but I wasn't there.


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## canadianparamedic (Nov 22, 2011)

4 out 5 days im in a helicoter once you can sleep in that.....then an ambulance is confertable. in my work locker i have a pillow fro thoes nights when no calls come in.
sent from my phone sorry for spelling mistakes.


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## akflightmedic (Nov 22, 2011)

Sasha said:


> Hahaha. Sure, that's great in theory. Not so great when you're on an 8a to 8p, work holds you over three hours and you live 30-45 minutes away, when you have to be back at 8a the next morning which is the schedule THEY assigned you.
> 
> What is wrong with bringing along pillows and a blanket in case you get a chance to sleep? I bring along books and other crap to do at work... Do I expect to? Nope. But if I get the chance too I will absolutely jump at the chance and am glad to be prepared.



And what other career do people plan for their down times...which is my point.

Lots of jobs pull 12 hour shifts but I never see them packing their snuggie and coloring books. 

My point is we expect it and are almost demanding of it...as if we are the only ones who work these long shifts and we have earned it. Just sayin...


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## Seaglass (Nov 22, 2011)

akflightmedic said:


> And what other career do people plan for their down times...which is my point.
> 
> Lots of jobs pull 12 hour shifts but I never see them packing their snuggie and coloring books.
> 
> My point is we expect it and are almost demanding of it...as if we are the only ones who work these long shifts and we have earned it. Just sayin...



That's all true. I think we're actually closer to getting this issue right than most fields, though. Everyone needs sleep, but driving down the highway when we might as well be drunk has become normal throughout society. Some of it is cultural--where else is sleep deprivation a status symbol? Some of it is the economy--everyone's working multiple jobs. It's normal, but it's still excessive and dangerous. 

For what it's worth, our parking lots often all sorts of people napping in their vehicles. Construction workers, truck drivers, lawn care crews, even the occasional cop. We're only different because our supervisors expect it. 

[/soapbox]


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## rmabrey (Nov 22, 2011)

I dont sleep, We work 12's so it isnt really necessary, and we are so busy that if we arent running calls we are writing charts. IF we are actually slow enough to have down time I usually read or my partner teaches me stuff


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## Handsome Robb (Nov 22, 2011)

We usually don't have time to sleep but if we do these things are amazing.


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## BandageBrigade (Nov 22, 2011)

We have the 'right' to sleep from the hours of 8pm to 6am. That is in our contract. That does not mean you get to if you are running calls. We exclusively work 24 hour shifts though. At my old service I work overnights - 12 hour shifts. I never came to work thinking about when to sleep, as I was expected by my employers to be busy/working for 12 hours.  Whether that be calls, reports, checking equipment, training, planning training sessions (2  training sessions were done a month, with every provider taking a rotation and a turn to teach). PR/public awarness, therefore that is what we did for the majority of our shift.


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## Sasha (Nov 22, 2011)

akflightmedic said:


> And what other career do people plan for their down times...which is my point.
> 
> Lots of jobs pull 12 hour shifts but I never see them packing their snuggie and coloring books.
> 
> My point is we expect it and are almost demanding of it...as if we are the only ones who work these long shifts and we have earned it. Just sayin...



What other career that works 12s involves driving for most of the shift? Getting held over for 3 hours and still being expected back in 9 hours? Or involves near the down time you can have in EMS? I have never heard of any other profession that could have nothing to do for 10 hours.  

Nothing wrong for planning what you do in your down time. When we are busy we are busy but when we are not its booooooring. 

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## DesertMedic66 (Nov 22, 2011)

We are not supposed to sleep on 12 hour shifts. However sups have said "as long as you wake up when you get a call and post where no one can see you then we won't have a problem".


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## adamjh3 (Nov 22, 2011)

fast65 said:


> I usually try to sleep for at least 5 hours when I'm on shift...of course I work 24's and have a station, so yeah.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I do, too. But we're not allowed to be there between 0700 and 1800 on the 24. 

Eff that.


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## socalmedic (Nov 22, 2011)

on a 12, i curl up into a ball on the front seat and ptfo. on a 24 from 0700-2000 i pull up the lever on the right side of my lazy boy and ptof then at 2000 move to horizontal recovery position in bed and ptfo.

ptfo = Pass the F out.


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## WolfmanHarris (Nov 22, 2011)

We have no official prohibition against sleep in policy; however, as a traditional hold-over from the Ministry of Health days, we only have rest facilities (couches) not beds. Thankfully we have one couch per medic at every station though.

Generally we sleep when we can. Sleeping during the day is fine provided station duties are complete and the truck is clean and ready to go. My service is fairly busy and even on nights more than two hours at a time of rest is a big surprise. 

I come into work as rested as I can be, but the fact is we're not well adapted to shift work, especially rotating between days and nights. Even with a good chunk of sleep during the day, fatigue is going to be much higher during a night shift than a day shift. Sleeping whenever possible to keep fresh just makes sense. Counting on it and allowing your off-time sleep to suffer as a result is just foolish.


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## Simusid (Nov 22, 2011)

6 PM to 6 AM.   3 calls in one night is a "busy" night and that is usually done by 10 PM.   Two calls after midnight would be apocalyptic.   we have couches and recliners in the day room and 3 sets of bunk beds.   I sleep in the day room because if I get into a bed I'll probably sleep through the tones!


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## DV_EMT (Nov 22, 2011)

Well.... my partner is brave and uses the gurney *shudders* but I've used the bench seat. The blue paper sheets make good shades on the back windows. I just cant stand the awful wool airplane lankes we use... though its probably better than the mylar emergency blankets


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## Tigger (Nov 22, 2011)

I don't come to work expecting to sleep, and I don't on half my shifts. But when I am scheduled to work a 13 and then start the overnight two hours later (and yes, that was the schedule given to me), I am going to need to sleep. I could stay awake for 23 straight hours, and I just did  two days ago for school, but I know for a fact that I am just not as effective when I am that stage. Sure I am awake, but I don't even know where I am half the time.

Company policy regarding sleep is strange. Technically it is banned for everyone but ALS, and they can return to base at 2000 and go to bed if they want. BLS is posted, despite the fact that there is only one truck on the overnight and the base is close to most hospitals. That said, as long as you answer the radio, no one cares. I don't like sleeping in back, I take a pillow and sometimes blanket up to the passengers seat and find a comfy position. My only god given talent is being able to sleep anywhere and anytime so it's not a huge deal haha.

During the day I have my sleep sunglasses that are a pair of massive Anons, so it just looks like I am sitting up staring into space when I am actually passed out. If we have nothing to do and are posted, I see no reason why not to sleep, what else should I be doing?


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## Shishkabob (Nov 23, 2011)

I can fall asleep anywhere, in any position.


HA!


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## Tigger (Nov 23, 2011)

Linuss said:


> I can fall asleep anywhere, in any position.
> 
> 
> HA!



I always get the worst head rush when I sleep like this, so you got me there.

WTF how come my pictures never actually show up in the message?


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## mycrofft (Nov 23, 2011)

*12 hour shifts should be outlawed.*

Unmarried and childless people in very good health do well in them, but the majority of people lose their efficiency after eight hours. The impact upon single parents needing commercial childcare is inordinate. Marriages are strained.(Well, sometimes prolonged....). If you are sick, you lose 12 hrs of sick leave per shift (if you had any at all to begin with....EMT employers, take note). 12 hr shifts are only to save effort on the part of schedulers and staffers,  and cut personnel overhead for companies.


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## firecoins (Nov 23, 2011)

EMTMichael said:


> I'm an EMT in NJ. I work for a private ambulance company. We do not take up house in any squad buildings or physical locations. So we supposed to park in a spot that easy to access main highways and are within proximity of our facilities and hospitals. When it comes time to nap, there's only one place to sleep....the ambulance. What do you like to use when you sleep to make you comfortable...do you bring your own pillow, blankets...other sleeping aids? Just curious how everyone else finds comfort in the front ...or back of the rig.



which company?  

sleep on the bench, bring a travel pillow.


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## fast65 (Nov 23, 2011)

adamjh3 said:


> I do, too. But we're not allowed to be there between 0700 and 1800 on the 24.
> 
> Eff that.



Eh, our supervisors don't really care when we sleep as long as it's after we get all of our checks completed and our station chores are done. Then some people will head into the bedrooms to take a nap while others just decide to nap on the couch.


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## Nerd13 (Nov 23, 2011)

Really depends on what shift and which station if I even get to see one. If its a 36 or a 24 I sleep whenever I am tired as long as the rigs are taken care of. Sometimes on the couch sometimes in my sleeping bag on a bed. If its anything less I might fall asleep on the couch for a bit watching tv or in the airway seat on the way back from transfers if its a 3 man crew. It's not like most people sleep particularly well while at post anyway since we have to listen for the radio. I don't see what the fuss is all about. As long as you aren't breaking any company policies and your responsibilities are taken care of then sleep and enjoy it!


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## DrParasite (Nov 23, 2011)

mycrofft said:


> Unmarried and childless people in very good health do well in them, but the majority of people lose their efficiency after eight hours. The impact upon single parents needing commercial childcare is inordinate. Marriages are strained.(Well, sometimes prolonged....).


according to who???????? I am both unmarried and childless, but when I get married and have children, I will look forward to only spending 3 days away from them instead of 5.  I call the BS flag on your entire statement


mycrofft said:


> If you are sick, you lose 12 hrs of sick leave per shift (if you had any at all to begin with....EMT employers, take note).


yeah, and??? if you work 4, 8, 12 or 24s, if you call out sick, you lose all the sick time for the duration of the shift.





mycrofft said:


> 12 hr shifts are only to save effort on the part of schedulers and staffers,  and cut personnel overhead for companies.


I call BS on this.  12 hour shifts are awesome, 3 days a week at work (and then 4 days off) and you get your FT hours, if you get an OT shift it's 12 hours at time and a half instead of just 18, and if you have a side job, you can work 4 or 5 days a week (including the part time job) and still have two days off to spend with family.  Plus it's less time and fuel spent commuting to work.  I work 12s, and will never go back to 8s again


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## DrParasite (Nov 23, 2011)

Also, sleeping is not a right.  I hate it when people complain that they are tired, especially those who work the night shift.  newsflash, if you work nights, you need to be sleeping during the day.  don't expect any sympathy from me.

that being said, if you want to sleep, as long as your chores are done, truck is ready to go, I have no personal objections.  as long as you are out the door in under 60 seconds after dispatch, and there are no delays, most (with the exception of one b!tch supervisor at my former job) have no problem if you are catching a few ZZZs.

Sleep on couches at the station, in beds if we have them, front seat of the ambulance, or the bench seat or cot.  typically use a hospital blanket and a sheet on the bench.

private companies are notoriously shady, have :censored::censored::censored::censored:ty working conditions, and suck to work at.  work there until you get hired by a municipality or a hospital.  good luck.


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## pa132399 (Nov 24, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> Also, sleeping is not a right.  I hate it when people complain that they are tired, especially those who work the night shift.  newsflash, if you work nights, you need to be sleeping during the day.  don't expect any sympathy from me.QUOTE]
> 
> I work mainly night shift. there is no rythm to my circadian so im usually up all night and i sometime work 16's that start at 0000 so im up till like 0500 then sleep till 0700 when our medics change shift and then up all day then to medic school til 2200 on early nights then back in to work at 0000. with that i say catch a couple zzzzz's if you can if not its not impossible to be awake for long periods of time with little short amounts of sleep.


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## 46Young (Nov 24, 2011)

EMTMichael said:


> I'm an EMT in NJ. I work for a private ambulance company. We do not take up house in any squad buildings or physical locations. So we supposed to park in a spot that easy to access main highways and are within proximity of our facilities and hospitals. When it comes time to nap, there's only one place to sleep....the ambulance. What do you like to use when you sleep to make you comfortable...do you bring your own pillow, blankets...other sleeping aids? Just curious how everyone else finds comfort in the front ...or back of the rig.



I didn't read the rest of the thread, but I did have five year's experience sitting on street corners, mostly on the overnights. I would pad both rails of the cot with blankets or sheets, another by the feet so that the metal doesn't dig in to your ankles (I'm tall). Throw another sheet over all or that, one blanket for your head, and another to cover you. To block out the light, you can pull a perp hat (skully) over your eyes, or use a hand towel. Turn up the A/C. You sleep better when it's a little cold.

Make sure you answer the radio. We had a CAD, so it would make noises when we got a job. I was also good at hearing only my identifier over the air. If you know the dispatcher, give them a cell number to call you just in case.

Park out of public view. In an urban environment, I like school parking lots, beside the bathroom in playgrounds, a highway service road, or against anything with a high wall. You don't want drunks and crackheads banging on your doors at 0330 hrs for a free ride. Also, check your back bumper for sleeping drunks before driving away. I've seen a few tumbling behind us as we're going enroute.


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## 46Young (Nov 24, 2011)

pa132399 said:


> DrParasite said:
> 
> 
> > Also, sleeping is not a right.  I hate it when people complain that they are tired, especially those who work the night shift.  newsflash, if you work nights, you need to be sleeping during the day.  don't expect any sympathy from me.QUOTE]
> ...


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## Sasha (Nov 24, 2011)

46Young said:


> I didn't read the rest of the thread, but I did have five year's experience sitting on street corners, mostly on the overnights. I would pad both rails of the cot with blankets or sheets, another by the feet so that the metal doesn't dig in to your ankles (I'm tall). Throw another sheet over all or that, one blanket for your head, and another to cover you. To block out the light, you can pull a perp hat (skully) over your eyes, or use a hand towel. Turn up the A/C. You sleep better when it's a little cold.
> 
> Make sure you answer the radio. We had a CAD, so it would make noises when we got a job. I was also good at hearing only my identifier over the air. If you know the dispatcher, give them a cell number to call you just in case.
> 
> Park out of public view. In an urban environment, I like school parking lots, beside the bathroom in playgrounds, a highway service road, or against anything with a high wall. You don't want drunks and crackheads banging on your doors at 0330 hrs for a free ride. Also, check your back bumper for sleeping drunks before driving away. I've seen a few tumbling behind us as we're going enroute.



I've gotten woken up by some weird homeless man once. Scared the Hell out of me.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## adamjh3 (Nov 24, 2011)

Sasha said:


> I've gotten woken up by some weird homeless man once. Scared the Hell out of me.
> 
> Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk



Just once? 

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk


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## Sasha (Nov 24, 2011)

adamjh3 said:


> Just once?
> 
> Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk



I don't make a habit of working overnights.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## 46Young (Nov 24, 2011)

Sasha said:


> I've gotten woken up by some weird homeless man once. Scared the Hell out of me.
> 
> Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk



Once, while hiding in the playground, we had a guy high as $%^&* banging on the side of our bus with a sword. We couldn't tell if it was plastic or bendable metal. "Y'all (we were in Queens, I don't get where y'all comes from) been out here for five m!@#$%^&*!@n hours (I wish)! Y'all don't do %$#@! 

My partner was working on that bus, on the day shift on another day, and he ran into the guy. He was real chill, remembered the incident, and said that he was high when it happened.


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## Bullets (Nov 25, 2011)

Sasha said:


> What other career that works 12s involves driving for most of the shift? Getting held over for 3 hours and still being expected back in 9 hours? Or involves near the down time you can have in EMS? I have never heard of any other profession that could have nothing to do for 10 hours.
> 
> Nothing wrong for planning what you do in your down time. When we are busy we are busy but when we are not its booooooring.
> 
> Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk



Police officer...and they get fired for sleeping on duty


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## NomadicMedic (Nov 25, 2011)

We work 2 12 hour days followed by 2 12 hour nights. Our stations all have bunks. We are allowed to sleep after 2200 and have to be up by 0630. Most nights I get decent sleep, but on those nights when I don't, I certainly don't complain. After all, I'm being paid to run calls, not snooze. 

Our bunks are a benefit, not a right and if our "out the chute" time ever suffered, it's a guarantee that the bunks would disappear. We're always enroute 90 seconds after dispatch.


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## Sasha (Nov 25, 2011)

Bullets said:


> Police officer...and they get fired for sleeping on duty



I've seen cops sleeping lol

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## Pseudonymous (Nov 25, 2011)

akflightmedic said:


> Napping in a seat is one thing but pre planning with bringing a pillow and blankie, maybe some PJs and warm milk too...
> 
> Seriously, any shift 12 hours or less you should not need to snooze. Will you get drowsy, absolutely but this is your job. Night shift or day shift, it is your responsibility to be well rested in order to be alert for the entire 12 hours.
> 
> It is amazing how in the EMS culture we discuss naps as they are a right instead of a privilege we get to sneak every now and again.



It is our responsibility to be well rested, before we even start a shift? That's not always an option. In fact, for most people I know, it's damn near impossible. I guess you don't, but some people have other things to do when they aren't at work. It can't always be: Sleep all day, then stay awake for a 12 hour shift, rinse, repeat. Something I hear an awful lot from my coworkers after a 12 hour shift goes something like: "After this I go home and sleep for an hour, and then back to work another 12 at another EMS job"

We humans NEED sleep. We can't just opt out. 

Instead of talking down to others who are just trying to find ways to get a bit of sleep on the job, you should thank your respective god that you actually have the blessing of being able to be well rested before a shift.


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## DrParasite (Nov 25, 2011)

Pseudonymous said:


> It is our responsibility to be well rested, before we even start a shift?


absolutely!!!! it's called being a professional, and coming to work in the proper condition to work.  when you are at work (any job), you are expected be awake and making money for the company for the duration of your shift (expect if you employer allows otherwise.


Pseudonymous said:


> That's not always an option. In fact, for most people I know, it's damn near impossible. I guess you don't, but some people have other things to do when they aren't at work. It can't always be: Sleep all day, then stay awake for a 12 hour shift, rinse, repeat. Something I hear an awful lot from my coworkers after a 12 hour shift goes something like: "After this I go home and sleep for an hour, and then back to work another 12 at another EMS job"


Don't care, not my problem.  As an employer, I don't care what you do when you aren't at work, but you should be ready to work for your entire shift.

if you are going job to job, than that's your fault, not mine.  And if you come to my job from your other job, and end up sleeping and missing a call, or being in a condition that you are unable to function, than you can bet your job that I will discipline you and possibly fire you for reporting to work in a condition where you are unable to perform your job adequately.


Pseudonymous said:


> We humans NEED sleep. We can't just opt out.


Agreed, 100%.  however, you should be sleeping at home, in your bed, not while you are on the clock at your job (again, unless your employer permits it).


Pseudonymous said:


> Instead of talking down to others who are just trying to find ways to get a bit of sleep on the job, you should thank your respective god that you actually have the blessing of being able to be well rested before a shift.


No.  you should report to work well rested ready to work.  that's your responsibility as an employee.

Being able to sleep at work is NOT a right.  it's a privilege if it's permitted at all.  An employer doesn't (and shouldn't) care what you do in your off time, family, other jobs, child care, 10 hour star trek marathon, etc, but you are expected to be awake and ready to work for the entire duration of your shift.

I work nights, 12 hours at a clip.  I know I need at least 6 hours of sleep  between shifts, otherwise my productivity dips.  on 4 hours, my brain doesn't function properly.  on less than 2, my body chemistry goes straight to hell.  18 hrs shifts get long (esp when you have 6 hours off and are back for another 18), doubles suck, triples (36 hours on the clock, done 3 in my career) suck when I don't have a slow job where I can nap in the middle).  But the bottom line is, I am expected to be awake and ready to wok for 12 hours straight.  that's what my employer pays me hourly for.

Do I sleep at work?  absolutely not.  have I fallen asleep at work?  rarely.  have I napped?  sure.  but unless my agency provided sleeping quarters, I don't go into work expecting to sleep during my shift.  And if I am napping and I end up on jobs during my "planned" nap time, oh well, I have no right to complain or say anything about it.


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## Pseudonymous (Nov 25, 2011)

Those are some nice thoughts, Dr.Parasite. But here in reality, we can't devote 100% of our time to work. And people don't always just choose to have other things just as important as work in their life. We can't just go to work, then just sleep until our next work day. We have things like family, upkeep of our homes, etc.

Your ideas are solely based on having loads of time between shifts to sleep and relax. Life is more complicated than that. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and say that you're probably new to EMS, or demanding careers in general, but you need to understand, in the working world, things are more complicated than just getting enough sleep and work. You say people should be home sleeping in their beds, not work? That doesn't really work for people that only spend around 24 hours a week at their home. 

A good thing for OP to do, is bring a car blanket and car pillow. There is nothing wrong with resting while you would otherwise be doing absolutely nothing, in order to keep efficiency and functionality as close to ideal levels as possible.


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## abckidsmom (Nov 25, 2011)

Pseudonymous said:


> Those are some nice thoughts, Dr.Parasite. But here in reality, we can't devote 100% of our time to work. And people don't always just choose to have other things just as important as work in their life. We can't just go to work, then just sleep until our next work day. We have things like family, upkeep of our homes, etc.
> 
> Your ideas are solely based on having loads of time between shifts to sleep and relax. Life is more complicated than that. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and say that you're probably new to EMS, or demanding careers in general, but you need to understand, in the working world, things are more complicated than just getting enough sleep and work. You say people should be home sleeping in their beds, not work? That doesn't really work for people that only spend around 24 hours a week at their home.



I literally laughed out loud when I read this.  You think that because he commits to sleeping at least 3 full REM cycles between shifts, and eliminates distractions and overcommitments that he is new to demanding careers?

In every instance where I have known a partner to work, then go home and be responsible for child care, or family needs, or whatever - without even considering a second job or school, their performance has suffered.  They were always looking to grab a nap, and grouched about if they didn't get this right post to be able to, or whatever.

Standard workplace behavior means that you arrive to work FIT FOR DUTY.  Not according to your own, "oh I'm fine" but actually game-day physically fit for duty.  Awake, showered, focused on the tasks at hand, having eaten before the start of shift or packing food for on the go.  Really, anything less is giving your patients and partners a second rate medic.

You can certainly go for months, years even, taking care of yourself last after doing and going constantly, but its no life.


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## mycrofft (Nov 26, 2011)

*I was working "12's" and sleeping about 4.5 hrs a night.*

If I hadn't finally gotten my cardiac diagnosis  (i.e., wakeup call) and then retired I'd be dead now. And that was WITH a labor union and civil service commission protection. 

It can become a macho/adrenaline/ "I can't do anything else" thing, and your employer will come to rely on that sort of misguided heroic effort. Bugger that, it is bad for you, your family, and your patients.


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## DrParasite (Nov 26, 2011)

Pseudonymous said:


> Those are some nice thoughts, Dr.Parasite. But here in reality, we can't devote 100% of our time to work. And people don't always just choose to have other things just as important as work in their life. We can't just go to work, then just sleep until our next work day. We have things like family, upkeep of our homes, etc.


huh?  I never said you need to devote 100% of your time to work.  what I said was you need to devote 100% of your time you are scheduled to be at work and be at work, ready to work.  everything else you need to do in your life (sleep, eat, housework, etc) should be done during your off hours.  how you manage your time is your responsibility, but when you are at work, you should be there to work.


Pseudonymous said:


> Your ideas are solely based on having loads of time between shifts to sleep and relax.  Life is more complicated than that.


No, its not.  If you work 12 hour shifts, you have 10-12 hours off from work, depending on commute and the occasional late job.   also if you work 12 hour shifts, you only work 3-4 days a week.  That means you have 3-4 days off a week.  You need to manage your time and juggle all your other stuff to do, within all those times you are not at work.  And before you ask, yes, you might need to schedule your sleep time.


Pseudonymous said:


> I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and say that you're probably new to EMS, or demanding careers in general, but you need to understand, in the working world, things are more complicated than just getting enough sleep and work.


 I have only been doing this for the 13 years, with the last 6 years in urban EMS systems.  Your right, I'm just a newbie.  Before doing EMS, I worked in the corporate world, and I'm pretty sure my supervisor would have let me go (no wait, not let me go, he would throw me out on my ***) if he ever walked up to my desk and saw me taking a nap, esp if I had a pillow and blanket.  


Pseudonymous said:


> You say people should be home sleeping in their beds, not work? That doesn't really work for people that only spend around 24 hours a week at their home.


than you are too busy lol.  if you are only spending 24 hours a week at home, than you are setting yourself up for major health problems and an early grave.  As you said, "We humans NEED sleep. We can't just opt out." and you are right.  sleep, deep sleep, uninterrupted, not 20 min to an hour here another 30 min there in the back of an ambulance.

I know this might shock you, but everyone has stuff they do outside of work.  the 19 year old who lives at home with parents does family stuff, friend stuff, girlfriend stuff, college/school stuff, going out stuff, drinking time, and needs to balance in sleep and other stuff to maintain his or her health.  oh yeah, and sleep

As the 19 year old gets older and turn 36, he or she will have bills to pay, family stuff, friend stuff, girlfriend/wife/ex-wife stuff, college/school stuff, going out stuff, drinking time, and needs to balance in sleep and other stuff to maintain his or her health.  oh yeah, and sleep

If you want to insist you have the right to sleep on company time, don't need to come to work fit to work for 12 straight hours, or make excuses (I don't have time to sleep, I have too much stuff going on) to justify your behavior, well, I guess there is nothing more for me to say.  you have made your decision how you want to act, and despite me trying to convince you act like a professional, you insist on not doing so.

To each his or her own, I guess.


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## DV_EMT (Nov 26, 2011)

mycrofft said:


> Unmarried and childless people in very good health do well in them.




Im married and both my wife and I work 12's and we're happy as pie. gives us long days off together when we're scheduled properly ^_^


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## Sasha (Nov 26, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> huh?  I never said you need to devote 100% of your time to work.  what I said was you need to devote 100% of your time you are scheduled to be at work and be at work, ready to work.  everything else you need to do in your life (sleep, eat, housework, etc) should be done during your off hours.  how you manage your time is your responsibility, but when you are at work, you should be there to work.
> No, its not.  If you work 12 hour shifts, you have 10-12 hours off from work, depending on commute and the occasional late job.   also if you work 12 hour shifts, you only work 3-4 days a week.  That means you have 3-4 days off a week.  You need to manage your time and juggle all your other stuff to do, within all those times you are not at work.  And before you ask, yes, you might need to schedule your sleep time.
> I have only been doing this for the 13 years, with the last 6 years in urban EMS systems.  Your right, I'm just a newbie.  Before doing EMS, I worked in the corporate world, and I'm pretty sure my supervisor would have let me go (no wait, not let me go, he would throw me out on my ***) if he ever walked up to my desk and saw me taking a nap, esp if I had a pillow and blanket.
> than you are too busy lol.  if you are only spending 24 hours a week at home, than you are setting yourself up for major health problems and an early grave.  As you said, "We humans NEED sleep. We can't just opt out." and you are right.  sleep, deep sleep, uninterrupted, not 20 min to an hour here another 30 min there in the back of an ambulance.
> ...



Really? You shouldn't eat at work? Lol. 

At the corporate world were you routinely held over a few hours when you only had 12 hours between shifts? Did you have long stretches where you didn't do anything? Then got busy slammed the last two hours of your shift?

If you want to sleep, sleep if you have the time. Nothing wrong with that. 

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## Aidey (Nov 26, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> Also, sleeping is not a right.  I hate it when people complain that they are tired, especially those who work the night shift.  newsflash, if you work nights, you need to be sleeping during the day.  don't expect any sympathy from me.
> .



Newsflash, the majority of the rest of the world works days. I've worked nights for the last 2 1/2 years. The effort involved in keeping people from calling me*, knocking on my door etc is insane. I sleep during the day. My neighbors do not. The garbage truck does not. UPS does not. 

I take my sleep seriously. I've threatened my apartment manager with police action, because they did not seem to understand that when I put on maintenance requests not to knock, call or enter my apartment before 3pm that I was dead serious. After a maintenance worker entered my apartment at 0900 with zero warning I told them that if it happened again I would consider it an illegal entry and call the police and report an intruder. 

You might want to tone down the condescension a bit, night shift workers are at the mercy of the people around them who operate on a normal schedule. No matter what you do, shiat happens. I can not fathom how hard it would be to maintain such a strict schedule with a spouse and kids. If being a "professional" is worth telling your family to eff off 1/2 of the time, than I suppose it is possible. 


*My phone is set to vibrate, I can't turn it off completely. If my employer calls to mandatory me and I don't respond I get one freebie, after that if I don't call in within 2 hours I get written up. There is zero room to negotiate with them on this.


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## akflightmedic (Nov 26, 2011)

All about choices, you choose nights and you choose your employer. Obviously there is some personal benefit for your choices or you would not stay with this employer or this schedule.


Here is some advice regarding your phone: Purchase a very cheap, inexpensive pre paid phone. That phone number is used for your employer, that is the only number they get.

Shut off your regular social phone which everyone else has access to. Now when that cheapo phone rings or vibrates...you know it is your employer. You now have no excuse to have to monitor every chirp, vibration or ring from the non work phone....just a little food for thought from one who has been there done that.


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## akflightmedic (Nov 26, 2011)

Regardless of all the difficulties for the night shift worker, the employer is paying you to show up and to be your best for them for the shift assigned. It is up to you to make that happen. You should never show up expecting to sleep or nap...period. It is not a right.

You should never base an off duty choice on the assumption of "well I slept the past three shifts I will do so again".


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## Aidey (Nov 26, 2011)

I did not chose nights, my spot on the seniority list did. Sure, you could say I always have the option to work somewhere else but how many EMS employers don't assign shifts based on seniority? I actually  kind of did the phone thing back when I had a land line. The issue being that I was  constantly forgetting to set and unset the call forwarding for when I  left the house but was not at work.

I don't disagree that you should never expect to do anything at work but work. I just take exception to the attitude that if you work nights (or another odd shift) that you need to STFU because it is your fault and your fault alone if you don't get enough sleep.


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## AlphaButch (Nov 26, 2011)

If you're working, you shouldn't expect to be able to sleep at all. That being said, the majority of employers I've worked with or have knowledge of, are very leniant of napping on the job as long as the job gets done and performance is up to par.

Employers are normally required to make reasonable adjustments for downtime or sleep if a shift is 24 hrs or longer. This doesn't mean that they are required to give you sleep, they're just required to make reasonable provisions for it. Such as quiet time for a few hours, darkened room with bunks, etc. If you've volunteered to pick up an extra shift - this is waived.

Even though we're leniant on napping when there isn't work to be done, bringing a pillow and blanket onto the truck has a very negative perception. It's telling supervision that your shift is so slow that you expect to sleep the shifts or that you weren't able to get enough sleep before work for some reason; Both of these are causes of alarm on a managerial level.


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## Nerd13 (Nov 26, 2011)

I think everybody is arguing for no reason.  We all seem to be in agreement on the fact that you should go to work expecting to work the entire time and not sleep. However, if all of your station/rig duties are done AND you're not breaking a company policy AND you can wake up and be ready to go when the radio calls you, who cares if you sleep? If the company doesn't dictate what I do on my downtime then I'll do what I feel is best for me at that time. I'm sure my patients would like me a lot more at 34 of my 36 hours if I've had the opportunity to nap than they would if I hadn't whether I am capable of working the whole 36 with no rest period or not.


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## RuralMedik (Nov 26, 2011)

*Downtime*

I can't find fault in that if the truck is checked off, any applicable chores are comleted, any in-service(s) are finished, then why not?  When I work a 24 hr shift, if it's after 6pm I'll take a nap if tired, and if it's after 11pm, I may be asleep, unless on a call, be it a 911 response or an IFT.

There ARE times when a crew takes an IFT to a facility that involves an 11 hour round trip. Staring at the road for hours on end can make anyone tired, so I've always advocated a 24 hr crew to rest when they can.  Sometimes, though, the call volume just will not allow it.


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## Tigger (Nov 26, 2011)

Pseudonymous said:


> It is our responsibility to be well rested, before we even start a shift? That's not always an option. In fact, for most people I know, it's damn near impossible. I guess you don't, but some people have other things to do when they aren't at work. It can't always be: Sleep all day, then stay awake for a 12 hour shift, rinse, repeat. Something I hear an awful lot from my coworkers after a 12 hour shift goes something like: "After this I go home and sleep for an hour, and then back to work another 12 at another EMS job"
> 
> We humans NEED sleep. We can't just opt out.
> 
> Instead of talking down to others who are just trying to find ways to get a bit of sleep on the job, you should thank your respective god that you actually have the blessing of being able to be well rested before a shift.



This kind of attitude is one of the many that continues to hold EMS back from advancing as a profession. It is not an option to show up to work not fit to work the entire shift, no matter what the reason. People working back to back 12s on 2 hours of sleep continuously are going to be substandard providers, because as you note, humans need sleep. I hate working with someone that just came off a 13 and are coming straight on since I have to pick up their slack.

I sleep when we have nothing to do and are posted, but everyday I come to work expecting that I will not sleep for the next 13 hours and I plan what I do prior to coming on accordingly. Otherwise I am doing a serious disservice to my partner and patients.


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## Tigger (Nov 26, 2011)

Bullets said:


> Police officer...and they get fired for sleeping on duty



Every cop I've ever met works 8s, and it's certainly not unheard of to post up in an out of the way place and take a quick nap.


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## Ewok Jerky (Nov 26, 2011)

*to the OP*

-who never said anything about DEMANDING a RIGHT to sleep:

when I work nights its not really an issue, I have a pillow to prop against the door panel and lean my head in that little spot between the head-rest and door jam, you know like where the seatbelt is.

days is a little tougher, if Im in a lot somewhere I throw on my shades and try to stay straight so it looks like Im just staring, or I will hold a book/magazine in my hands.

to everyone else: what if OP had asked about a good book to read during downtime, or a good portable DVD player...anyone have a problem with that? "you should not be watching movies on duty!" yeah right.

(disclaimer: we all know the A-holes who gripe and moan when a call comes in whether they are sleeping, or reading, or finishing a tag or whatever...but I dont think we are talking about those people now)


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## 46Young (Nov 26, 2011)

Nerd13 said:


> I think everybody is arguing for no reason.  We all seem to be in agreement on the fact that you should go to work expecting to work the entire time and not sleep. However, if all of your station/rig duties are done AND you're not breaking a company policy AND you can wake up and be ready to go when the radio calls you, who cares if you sleep? If the company doesn't dictate what I do on my downtime then I'll do what I feel is best for me at that time. I'm sure my patients would like me a lot more at 34 of my 36 hours if I've had the opportunity to nap than they would if I hadn't whether I am capable of working the whole 36 with no rest period or not.



Bingo! If you have no pending tasks to complete, and sleeping doesn't inferers with anything operationally, then there's nothing wrong with it. Just don't do it in the public eye, and get all of your mandatory duties and training out of the way before you look to rack out. If anything, it renders the provider more alert and productive when they are running calls. They're called safety naps for a reason.

Now, for shifts of 16 hours or less, plan on getting no sleep. In NYC, the shifts cannot go over 16 hours for this reason. This is also why truckers can't drive past 16 hours either.The problem is, on the overnights, no matter how you sleep during the days, humans are not nocturnal creatures. You're body is going to look to sleep at some point; it's just natural. When I worked the 2000-0800, I would always hit a wall at around 0200 no matter how well rested I was.

For 24's and greater, sleep should be authorized. Multiple studies have shown that when you're awake past 16 straight hours, your reaction time when driving is blunted to the equivalent of having two alcoholic beverages (or somehting similar). I wonder how many medication errors or missed IV's are due to fatigue from being up too many hours or just from working the overnight? Realize that overnight personnel may have no plausible options other than working at their current job, and at night. It's not as simple as just changing jobs or shifts. They can have children to care for, a long commute, whatever. They may have already have been up for 4,8, 12 hours or more when they arrive at work, having no way to change that scenario.


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## 46Young (Nov 26, 2011)

Tigger said:


> This kind of attitude is one of the many that continues to hold EMS back from advancing as a profession. It is not an option to show up to work not fit to work the entire shift, no matter what the reason. People working back to back 12s on 2 hours of sleep continuously are going to be substandard providers, because as you note, humans need sleep. I hate working with someone that just came off a 13 and are coming straight on since I have to pick up their slack.
> 
> I sleep when we have nothing to do and are posted, but everyday I come to work expecting that I will not sleep for the next 13 hours and I plan what I do prior to coming on accordingly. Otherwise I am doing a serious disservice to my partner and patients.



What's holding back EMS as a profession is the low pay and crappy working conditions. This is why you have people working around the clock with two or three employers. This is why most people fail to stay in the field more than 7-10 years on average. This is why EMS fails to organize - rather than stay and fight the good fight, many use EMS for what it is, something interesting that has flexible hours and pays the bills, but is not sustainable for the long term. Then they leave for a fire based system, another type of public/civil service job, finish college, or into another field altogether.

Think about it, why is it possible to work for two or three EMS employers at the same time? Because their schedules look like Swiss cheese due to constant turnover.

EMS continues to eat it's young.


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## 46Young (Nov 26, 2011)

beano said:


> -who never said anything about DEMANDING a RIGHT to sleep:
> 
> when I work nights its not really an issue, I have a pillow to prop against the door panel and lean my head in that little spot between the head-rest and door jam, you know like where the seatbelt is.
> 
> ...



The shades are the oldest trick in the book. When the supervisor knocks on the window, just look up and say "Amen!"


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## dstevens58 (Nov 26, 2011)

Aidey said:


> I don't disagree that you should never expect to do anything at work but work. I just take exception to the attitude that if you work nights (or another odd shift) that you need to STFU because it is your fault and your fault alone if you don't get enough sleep.



Why does the conversation degrade itself to this point just because someone expresses their opinion?


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## Aidey (Nov 26, 2011)

Re-read my post, I'm not telling anyone to STFU, I'm describing how another person is coming across.


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## akflightmedic (Nov 27, 2011)

beano said:


> -who never said anything about DEMANDING a RIGHT to sleep



And for those with reading comprehension problems, I never said anyone was "demanding" a right to sleep. I did state several times that showing up with the expectation to sleep is a problem. I also stated we are the only profession I can think of where we go to work with the expectation of being able to sleep. And I even further clarified that I was addressing shifts of 12 hours or less.

So if you can name another job where people prepare for their day or night's work or base their off duty activities around the expectation of getting sleep while on duty, I will shut up.

It is this mentality within our profession that I find extremely distressing.

And do not throw the whole safety nap BS at me, that is a tactic we used many times within the FD. If you cannot work 12 hours in an alert status without the need for sleep because of choices you make in your personal life then we have a problem.

A 12 hour shift is not unreasonable and I would expect my staff to not have wrinkles in their uniforms from laying down or bed head during the day because they cuddled with a pillow on the bench seat.

Reading a book, watching a movie, these are things which keep you alert. Your brain is engaged and can quickly be switched to the task at hand. Waking from sleep, you can/will be in a fog and are a higher risk behind the wheel or rendering patient care than if you were performing the other activities.

Again, read where I said 12 hour shifts or less and no station to report to.


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## Ewok Jerky (Nov 27, 2011)

akflightmedic said:


> My point is we expect it and are almost demanding of it...as if we are the only ones who work these long shifts and we have earned it. Just sayin...



OP never said anything about an expectation to sleep or being fatigued at work...he simply asked about napping in the rig which you said is "a privilege we get to sneak now and again.

Personally, I would rather bust my *** for twelve hours than sit around because when I get bored I get drowsy...nothing to do with fatigue or being unprepared or unproffessional, everything to do with staring at the back of a starbucks for 6 hours


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## fast65 (Nov 27, 2011)

46Young said:


> The shades are the oldest trick in the book. When the supervisor knocks on the window, just look up and say "Amen!"



Or just poke the supervisor and ask them to stop snoring  I only saythis because my current partner is my supervisor, and he's snoring in the drivers seat...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tagsburton (Nov 27, 2011)

We work 2 ten hour days and 2 fourteen hour nights...you get looked down on if you don't try to get some sleep on night shift, even if it's only a half hour.


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## akflightmedic (Nov 27, 2011)

beano said:


> OP never said anything about an expectation to sleep or being fatigued at work



You mean starting a thread asking how to sleep on the job and the discussion of bringing a pillow and blanket does not demonstrate an expectation of sleeping on the job?


Man, I must need to repeat Reading Comprehension 101 cause I am the idiot apparently.


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## Aidey (Nov 27, 2011)

Does it imply an expectation? Or does is it acknowledging that it is a possibility, and it is obviously not uncommon that napping on shift happens. 

People may not have time to read, eat or watch DVDs on shift, but they still make threads asking what other people read, eat and watch.


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## Ewok Jerky (Nov 27, 2011)

When people find out I work 12 hours in an ambulance they almost invariably ask if I get to sleep, and no one has ever had s negative reaction when I reply that yes I do het to close my eyes sometimes.

Oh and what about shopping on duty, is that ok?


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## Ewok Jerky (Nov 27, 2011)

akflightmedic said:


> You mean starting a thread asking how to sleep on the job and the discussion of bringing a pillow and blanket does not demonstrate an expectation of sleeping on the job?
> 
> 
> Man, I must need to repeat Reading Comprehension 101 cause I am the idiot apparently.



I frequently bring my debit to work with the intent of buying lunch/coffe etc. And it doesn't always happen and and I certainly don't expect it to, but it sure is nice when it works out


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## DrParasite (Nov 27, 2011)

Aidey said:


> Newsflash, the majority of the rest of the world works days. I've worked nights for the last 2 1/2 years. The effort involved in keeping people from calling me*, knocking on my door etc is insane. I sleep during the day. My neighbors do not. The garbage truck does not. UPS does not.


and your point is?  I have work nights for the past 3 years at my FT job, after working 5 years on days and nights at my prior job and the occasional day shift at my PT job.  I know exactly what you are talking about.  I have missed more than my share of UPS delivery guys because I was out cold, and my Dad insist on calling me at 11am, because he "figured you would be up by now."  it sucks, but that's the problem with being a night walker in a day walker's world.


Aidey said:


> I take my sleep seriously. I've threatened my apartment manager with police action, because they did not seem to understand that when I put on maintenance requests not to knock, call or enter my apartment before 3pm that I was dead serious. After a maintenance worker entered my apartment at 0900 with zero warning I told them that if it happened again I would consider it an illegal entry a
> nd call the police and report an intruder.


good call.  he is lucky you don't live in texas, or you might have shot him.


Aidey said:


> You might want to tone down the condescension a bit, night shift workers are at the mercy of the people around them who operate on a normal schedule. No matter what you do, shiat happens.


there is no condescension, except toward the people who come to work expecting to be sleeping and get pissed when bossed prevent it.  it's a job, if your boss doesn't give you proper sleeping quarters, odds are you shouldn't be sleeping.  it's called being a professional.


Aidey said:


> I can not fathom how hard it would be to maintain such a strict schedule with a spouse and kids. If being a "professional" is worth telling your family to eff off 1/2 of the time, than I suppose it is possible.


it's not easy.  and you aren't telling your family to eff off 1/2 of the time, you are telling them you work at night, so you need to sleep.  as them how they would react to you calling them at 3am, since you are awake, and "they got a few hours of sleep already."  probably wouldn't go over well.





Aidey said:


> *My phone is set to vibrate, I can't turn it off completely. If my employer calls to mandatory me and I don't respond I get one freebie, after that if I don't call in within 2 hours I get written up. There is zero room to negotiate with them on this.


that sucks.  I would find a new job personally, but that's just me.  the only time I want to be mandated to come in (and that's with my boss calling me and waking my sleeping *** up) is if there was an MCI, or major incident, and they were recalling all special operations people in, or preparing for a deployment.  Otherwise, when I'm off from work, I am off from work.  that means all hell can be breaking lose, 20 jobs holding, and I am off the clock and it's not my problem.  

Also, if I'm not at my FT job, I might be at my PT job, and it's not like I can leave my PT job to go to my FT job because i was mandated, that's unprofessional, an leaves my PT job in a bind too, since now they have to cover my shift.


Sasha said:


> Really? You shouldn't eat at work?


and what if you don't have time?  you expect to be able to stop at a restaurant, spend an hour at dinner?  or maybe cook dinner in the kitchen?  Getting a slice of pizza on the way back, or bringing your food in a cooler to eat during your downtime both gets you food, and doesn't interfere with your job.





Sasha said:


> At the corporate world were you routinely held over a few hours when you only had 12 hours between shifts? Did you have long stretches where you didn't do anything? Then got busy slammed the last two hours of your shift?


are you kidding me?  in the corporate world, it's called being "asked" to stay late.  scheduled for 9 to 5, getting out of the office at 7 or 9, only be to back at work at 9am.  been there, done that, often for no pay if you are a salaried employee.


Sasha said:


> If you want to sleep, sleep if you have the time. Nothing wrong with that.


Sure, as long as it's ok with your boss, he/she provides you with sleeping quarters, and it doesn't interfere with your job.





46Young said:


> What's holding back EMS as a profession is the low pay and crappy working conditions. This is why you have people working around the clock with two or three employers.


because people WILL work for low pay and crappy working conditions, and people accept working around the clock for two or three employers.  and if you don't want to, than buh bye, find a new job, because before you are out the door, the agency will have a dozen people applying to take your job.





akflightmedic said:


> So if you can name another job where people prepare for their day or night's work or base their off duty activities around the expectation of getting sleep while on duty, I will shut up.


fire departments, which work 24 hour shifts.  and doctors, who have on call rooms where staff are permitted to sleep.  but they also have beds, and are given sleeping quarters by their management.





dstevens58 said:


> Why does the conversation degrade itself to this point just because someone expresses their opinion?


because anyone who disagrees with him is wrong.  I have nothing wrong with someone disagreeing with me, I have a problem with someone disagreeing with me because they want to do something unprofessional that hold back my career from being seen as a profession.

If the company has rules against sleeping, than you shouldn't sleep.  if sleeping delays your response to an assignment, than you shouldn't sleep.  if the company doesn't provide you with sleeping quarters, than you shouldn't sleep.  if you walk into work expecting to sleep instead of doing work, and if any of the previous three conditions apply, than you should consider another line of work.


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## DrParasite (Nov 27, 2011)

beano said:


> Oh and what about shopping on duty, is that ok?


depends.  if your grandmother was having a heart attack, and when the crew brought her into the ambulance, you had bags from toys R us, WalMart, the local supermarket, or the local electronics store what would your reaction be?  

what would the reaction be when the medics needed to climb over your stuff to get in and do their job?

does shopping delay you from doing your job? like, are you in the back of WalMart shopping, and it's gonna take you 5 minutes just to get out of the store to answer a 911 job?

and lets take it to the extreme, if it's ok to shop at walmart, can you shop at a sex shop?   it's not illegal now is it?  park the truck out front, run in and get a new movie or toy.   would you have a problem with that?


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## akflightmedic (Nov 27, 2011)

beano said:


> I frequently bring my debit to work with the intent of buying lunch/coffe etc. And it doesn't always happen and and I certainly don't expect it to, but it sure is nice when it works out



Wow, your comprehension is horrendous.

If you bring your debit card, then you have the expectation.

If you bring a pillow/blanket, then you have an expectation.

Neither may happen, we agree on that. The point is coming to work with the expectation of buying food or drinks is normal. Coming to work with the expectation of sleeping or conducting off duty activities with the expectation of sleep is not.

You are comparing apples to oranges here.


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## DV_EMT (Nov 27, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> and lets take it to the extreme, if it's ok to shop at walmart, can you shop at a sex shop?   it's not illegal now is it?  park the truck out front, run in and get a new movie or toy.   would you have a problem with that?





***awkward unusual silence***


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## Ewok Jerky (Nov 27, 2011)

Look, I'm not down with anything that compromises pt care, so if the pt compartment is full of target bags from black Friday that's not cool. Neither is missing a response time cause you had the comforter pulled over your head.

Also, I'm not down with breaking policy, such as "no sleeping".

I fail to see the problem with napping, even napping comfortably with a pillow, in the absense of breaking policy or compromising pt care/response times.


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## Aidey (Nov 27, 2011)

I'm really not so sure it is apples and oranges, maybe oranges and tangerines. Every job has variations in things that are seen as permissible behavior. I've worked at places before where it wasn't possible to leave for lunch, and others were it was hit or miss. Things like listening to music/having the radio on, reading a book, watching TV or personal cell phone use are all things that are routinely done in EMS, but may not be common in other fields. We all know these things happen, and every person I have ever worked with has brought some sort of personal entertainment item. 

Bringing those items to work may indicate an expectation, but at the same time we all know that there is always the chance you won't have any down time.  

As for where you shop, I know my employer has a catch all "don't make us look bad" policy. A sex shop or liquor store would be violations of that even though they are not illegal. If you go into a normal store and act like a jackass it also applies. Along with any other rude/discourteous behavior. Beyond that my employer doesn't have any policies on what we can and can't do between calls as long as 1. We are within a certain distance of our assigned post, and 2. We respond promptly when called.


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