# Does your company have a policy against this?



## Sasha (Aug 12, 2009)

I'm wondering if anyone's company has a policy against this..

We had just bought lunch, and gotten a call. So we were driving to our call and got off the interstate, waiting at the light.

Right next to us was a very thin and bad off looking old Asian man with a handmade sign describing that he was homeless, and hungry. 

I didn't have cash on me, only a debit card, so I handed my to go bag and a gatorade to my partner and told her to give it to the homeless man, literally right outside of our window. She does.

Later, after we cleared a call, we got called back to the main station. I got my bum chewed, apparently I put us at risk, I put the homeless man at risk, and I put the public at risk of getting distracted and into an accident because I had my partner give this homeless man my lunch. SOMEONE, another employee or a bystander or something called and complained because we were showing a hungry man some compassion.

So I'm wondering if anyone had any experiences with this or a policy against this? If so, can you explain why? I don't understand it.

 I am still in awe, I said a few things that I probably should have in rebuttal, but although I'm not written up, I did get yelled at, and I'm really irritated by it.

Hell, I would think it'd be good publicity to be seen giving food to a hungry stranger. Aren't we supposed to be caring and compassionate towards our fellow human??


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## emtjack02 (Aug 12, 2009)

Can't say I've heard of that before. I for one am glad to call you a fellow EMS professional...that's what were here for..to help.


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## usafmedic45 (Aug 12, 2009)

> with a handmade sign describing that he was homeless, and hungry.



Most likely he was more interested in getting money to buy alcohol and/or drugs.  



> So I'm wondering if anyone had any experiences with this or a policy against this?


I have a _personal_ rule against giving food to the homeless.  Money is _absolutely_ out of the question.  That said, I know one of my former EMTs was given a citation by a police officer for giving money to a beggar (excuse me, "homeless man down on his luck") while on duty.  She came into the station prattling much like you're doing about how unfair it was. I proceeded to write her up for it- both for breaking the law while on duty and for unprofessional conduct of acting like a total self-righteous little twit when she got back to station.  The law is the law and the law against supporting the homeless through handouts exists _for good reasons_ (keeps them from annoying us, keeps them from thinking this practice is a good idea).  

It's not as if most towns and cities of any decent size do not have charities and other support measures for those who truly want to help themselves get out of those situations.  I help them get to this help by reporting any of these derelicts to the proper authorities.  It also helps keep my property value from going down because of their presence.


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## VentMedic (Aug 12, 2009)

Carry business cards or fliers of the local soup kitchen or social services. That will feed them longer.

I have also given food, instead of money, to those panhandling only to have them toss it in the trash. 

While the laws banning panhandling in Florida have been in the courts for a few years, there are still laws that prohibit anything that interferes or causes a distraction in traffic areas. These laws can be enforced for all parties involved in the activity.


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## triemal04 (Aug 12, 2009)

I can understand the arguement for giving money, but why not food?  I suppose they could go sell the Big Mac for money to buy a bottle...  Just the general principle of not giving free handouts?


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## Sasha (Aug 12, 2009)

> Most likely he was more interested in getting money to buy alcohol and/or drugs.



So? I do what I can to help someone in need, whether they be in need of medical attention, or food, or money. After that, I have given them a choice, and it is their business what they do with it.



> I have a personal rule against giving food to the homeless. Money is absolutely out of the question. That said, I know one of my former EMTs was given a citation by a police officer for giving money to a beggar (excuse me, "homeless man down on his luck") while on duty. She came into the station prattling much like you're doing about how unfair it was. I proceeded to write her up for it- both for breaking the law while on duty and for unprofessional conduct of acting like a total self-righteous little twit when she got back to station. The law is the law and the law against supporting the homeless through handouts exists for good reasons (keeps them from annoying us, keeps them from thinking this practice is a good idea).
> 
> It's not as if most towns and cities of any decent size do not have charities and other support measures for those who truly want to help themselves get out of those situations. I help them get to this help by reporting any of these derelicts to the proper authorities. It also helps keep my property value from going down because of their presence.



You really confuse me. You honestly do!


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## 46Young (Aug 12, 2009)

Yes, it would and should be good PR. I have a rule about not giving money, but I've bought an undomiciled individual a sandwigh, chips, Mickey D's on several occasions, or just gave them the rest of my dinner. 

As far as being verbally admonished, you could say "Show me right now in the P&P manual (SOP's, rule book, whatever) where it expressly forbids me to do what I did". That line should pretty much work for any situation in which you were in the right. But that's just me.

You're IFT and waiting at a light, right? That implies that you were enroute to a routine Xfer, with a prescheduled pick up time. Additionally, you handed over your meal at a red light, so little if any time was actually lost. 

Who ratted you out? The fact that someone actually saw that and reported it to managament is a pretty :censored::censored: move.


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## usafmedic45 (Aug 12, 2009)

> Just the general principle of not giving free handouts?



No, just I don't believe in giving handouts to those who generally choose not to help themselves.  It's one thing to reach out a hand to help someone up, but it's a completely separate one to do the social equivalent of bringing some lazy unemployed :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: in a recliner a free beer so he doesn't have to get up and get it himself let alone work for it.  I look at the homeless a lot like I do dogs: don't reinforce the behavior you don't want to encourage them to keep doing.


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## Sasha (Aug 12, 2009)

> Who ratted you out?



I think it was another employee, I can't be certain, but I really think it was.


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## KillTank (Aug 12, 2009)

last time I rolled down my window for a homeless man I ended up taking him to the hospital.


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## VentMedic (Aug 12, 2009)

46Young said:


> As far as being verbally admonished, you could say "Show me right now in the *P&P manual (SOP's, rule book, whatever)* where it expressly forbids me to do what I did". That line should pretty much work for any situation in which you were in the right. But that's just me.


 
It does not have to be a company policy. It is a state law which is found in most states about anything or anyone that interferes with the flow of traffic. This definitely includes the intersections off interstates. This would hold true if you were in your own car. Not only is this for the safety in traffic of the people in cars but also for the one panhandling. They may run out into the path of a car. As well, it may encourage those that you shouldn't roll down your window for if they know you are a softy. 



Sasha said:


> We had just bought lunch, and gotten a call. So we were driving to our call and *got off the interstate, waiting at the light.*


 
I believe in directing them to a place to get them more appropriate help that does not put others at risk. If you decide to stop or pull over out of the traffic area, be sure to notify your dispatcher of your location.


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## usafmedic45 (Aug 12, 2009)

> I do what I can to help someone in need, whether they be in need of medical attention, or food, or money.



Can I borrow $10 then? :lol: 



> I do what I can to help someone in need, whether they be in need of medical attention, or food, or money. After that, I have given them a choice, and it is their business what they do with it.



Then why not just open up the drug kit and hand them the morphine then?  Or carry around fifths of Jack?  Save them the trouble.  Adding an intervening step does not absolve one of guilt in acting as a willing accomplice in destructive behavior.  



> You really confuse me. You honestly do!



Probably because I don't see the world as black and white like you do which allows me to tailor my stances to the situation as appropriate. 



> Who ratted you out? The fact that someone actually saw that and reported it to managament is a pretty  ***** move.



I would have done the same thing if it violated the law.


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## KillTank (Aug 12, 2009)

usafmedic45 said:


> No, just I don't believe in giving handouts to those who generally choose not to help themselves.  It's one thing to reach out a hand to help someone up, but it's a completely separate one to do the social equivalent of bringing some lazy unemployed :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: in a recliner a free beer so he doesn't have to get up and get it himself let alone work for it.  I look at the homeless a lot like I do dogs: don't reinforce the behavior you don't want to encourage them to keep doing.



+100

Took the words outa my mouth


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## silver (Aug 12, 2009)

usafmedic45 said:


> it's a completely separate one to do the social equivalent of bringing some lazy unemployed :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: in a recliner a free beer so he doesn't have to get up and get it himself let alone work for it.


WOW...
there is a gross misunderstanding of who is homeless in the US.

http://mentalhealth.samhsa.gov/publications/allpubs/homelessness/

some brief facts:


> Over a 5-year period, about 2 to 3 percent of the U.S. population (5 to 8 million people) will experience at least one night of homelessness.
> Thirty-nine percent report some form of mental health problem, and 20 to 25 percent meet criteria for serious mental illnesses.
> Sixty-six percent report substance use and/or mental health problems.
> Fifty-four percent were incarcerated at some point in their lives.
> ...


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## VentMedic (Aug 12, 2009)

With the cutbacks in mental health facilities and other services, the homeless come in a wide variety of people. That also includes people who got into more house than they could afford. Again, it is just a matter of directing them towards the right services. However, expect some anger and possible violence with some if you suggest that. Many have been panhandling for several years and have more experience than you do. If it comes to someone needing medical attention, no problem. But, again, call your dispatcher and take the same scene precautions you would for any other call. You should be able to do a citizen flag down call legallly.  
Don't become a traffic distraction to where others can be injured.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Aug 12, 2009)

while i agree withe most posts here on not handing food or money to homeless folks (I have my reasons that have nothing to do with a lack of empathy for those truely down on their luck and in need of help), can anyone honestly say that Sasha did anything morally wrong that should warrent disciplinary action?  Dispite the fact that I would not act as Sasha did, I applaud her actions and find it horrible that anyone would report an act of kindness...


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## VentMedic (Aug 12, 2009)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> luck and in need of help), can anyone honestly say that Sasha did anything morally wrong that should warrent disciplinary action? Dispite the fact that I would not act as Sasha did, I applaud her actions and find it horrible that anyone would report an act of kindness...


 
Sasha has a good heart but still violated the law and possibly endangered the safety of others including the person she was trying to help. It would be of an LEO's right to issue a ticket which would also have not been good in the eyes of her company. Safety first.  It probably wasn't about giving the food but rather the location she did the act of kindness.


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## 46Young (Aug 12, 2009)

KillTank said:


> last time I rolled down my window for a homeless man I ended up taking him to the hospital.



I had a partner, that when flagged down by a drunk wanting "detox" or something, he would telegraph looking at his watch, tell them the time nice and loud, and then drive away.


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## subliminal1284 (Aug 12, 2009)

Yup he more than likely wanted money for alcohol and or drugs it has happened to me quite a few times. One day I was going through the drive through at a mcdonalds and there was a man and woman standing outside mcdonalds asking everyone who went through the drive through for money because they were hungry and wanted to go inside and buy some food, I told them meet me on the other side and I will order them some food. I get to the other side and neither of them are no where to be found....Must not of been that hungry.


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## JCampbell (Aug 12, 2009)

One thing I found out very quickly in this field is that there a whole lot of RATS. They disgust me. These self righteous, holier than thou types are scurrying all over the place writing people up for this and that. Make me really miss the military. We dealt with those types swiftly. I have less than zero respect for tattle tales. That crap should be beaten out of you by 9th grade. Of course if you are causing harm to a Pt that's a different matter, but if I see it I will deal with it on the spot, then if there is no understanding, the chain of command gets involved.


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## 46Young (Aug 12, 2009)

JCampbell said:


> One thing I found out very quickly in this field is that there a whole lot of RATS. They disgust me. These self righteous, holier than thou types are scurrying all over the place writing people up for this and that. Make me really miss the military. We dealt with those types swiftly. I have less than zero respect for tattle tales. That crap should be beaten out of you by 9th grade. Of course if you are causing harm to a Pt that's a different matter, but if I see it I will deal with it on the spot, then if there is no understanding, the chain of command gets involved.



+1. Unfortunately the world is too soft nowadays, and you can't settle beefs in the parking lot without getting locked up and/or losing your job.


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## usafmedic45 (Aug 12, 2009)

> there is a gross misunderstanding of who is homeless in the US.



No, it is simply that you see those statistics as reasons to get feel sorry for these people.  I see most of them as reasons to not get involved since I like to take on issues I can actually do something about and work with people who aren't at an increase risk of stabbing me in the face for drunk or booze money, because they think I work for the CIA or simply because it's Tuesday.



> Thirty-nine percent report some form of mental health problem, and 20 to 25 percent meet criteria for serious mental illnesses.



And your point?  



> Sixty-six percent *report* substance use and/or mental health problems.


Key word: report.  It's a common problem with relying on voluntary surveys of illegal activities or embarassing information that you see often gross underreporting.  

Also, this is supposed to demonstrate that I was misguided in saying they would probably prefer money to spend on drugs or alcohol how?



> Fifty-four percent were incarcerated at some point in their lives.



And I'm supposed to feel sorry for these people why? 



> Twenty-three percent are veterans



Which is not an excuse or anything.  It shows that the homeless are not taking advantage of the programs out there. There are a LOT of programs aimed specifically at veterans.



> However, expect some anger and possible violence with some if you suggest that



This would be why I leave such activities to the guys and gals with guns, pepper spray and Tazers.  Actually our cops are pretty good about making sure the proper referrals get made and don't just haul the detritus off to the county lockup. 



> can anyone honestly say that Sasha did anything morally wrong that should warrent disciplinary action?



Morality has _nothing_ to do with it.  Illegal is illegal.  It doesn't matter if Sasha and her little bleeding heart disagree with the law, that still gives her no right to violate it just to make herself feel a little better about herself anymore than I have a right to speed because I like driving at speeds approximating the liftoff speed of a corporate jet.


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## daedalus (Aug 12, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Carry business cards or fliers of the local soup kitchen or social services. That will feed them longer.
> 
> I have also given food, instead of money, to those panhandling only to have them toss it in the trash.
> 
> While the laws banning panhandling in Florida have been in the courts for a few years, there are still laws that prohibit anything that interferes or causes a distraction in traffic areas. These laws can be enforced for all parties involved in the activity.



I gave a half of a fresh pizza to a homeless guy who had a "Hungry" sign, and he asked me to throw it away because he did not like pizza! Hah! I felt like an idiot.


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## VentMedic (Aug 12, 2009)

JCampbell said:


> One thing I found out very quickly in this field is that there a whole lot of RATS. They disgust me. These self righteous, holier than thou types are scurrying all over the place writing people up for this and that. Make me really miss the military. We dealt with those types swiftly. I have less than zero respect for tattle tales. That crap should be beaten out of you by 9th grade. Of course if you are causing harm to a Pt that's a different matter, but if I see it I will deal with it on the spot, then if there is no understanding, the chain of command gets involved.


 
quote by *46Young*


> +1. Unfortunately the world is too soft nowadays, and you can't settle beefs in the parking lot without getting locked up and/or losing your job.


You are assuming too much. This could have been a bystander that made the call or even an LEO who was cutting them some slack by not issuing the ticket but just made the call to their company.   We also have cameras at many of these intersections that can catch this activity.


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## usafmedic45 (Aug 12, 2009)

> Make me really miss the military. We dealt with those types swiftly.



Amen.  I don't go out looking for things to write people up for. Even when I stumbled across stuff, I normally just told them to knock it off.  Only when something really serious came up did I ever write them up or "formally" punish someone.  I hate paperwork too much to want to go looking for excuses to do more of it.   Actually I used to get in trouble in the military for not being hard enough on those under me. 

Of course, the military tends to also weed out the bleeding hearts as well or at least transform them into realistic people.


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## Sasha (Aug 12, 2009)

I suspected I might take a beating for this... However.



> Of course, the military tends to also weed out the bleeding hearts as well or at least transform them into realistic people.



Just because I don't have a bitter blackened view of the world does not make me unrealisitic.


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## 46Young (Aug 12, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> quote by *46Young*
> 
> You are assuming too much. This could have been a bystander that made the call or even an LEO who was cutting them some slack by not issuing the ticket but just made the call to their company.   We also have cameras at many of these intersections that can catch this activity.



You're right. I was going on the assumption by Sasha that it was most likely a co-worker.


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## VentMedic (Aug 12, 2009)

Sasha said:


> I suspected I might take a beating for this... However.


 
Just be safe!

I've got a soft spot for the homeless also but I also know they have to find the correct channels for help and not depend on panhandling.   For those I have come into contact with for medical situations, I will try whatever available to get them into the right service for help.  Unfortunately some do prefer to stay out of the system for a variety of reasons including an arrest warrant with their name on it or illegal status.


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## silver (Aug 12, 2009)

usafmedic45 said:


> Key word: report.  It's a common problem with relying on voluntary surveys of illegal activities or embarassing information that you see often gross underreporting.
> 
> Also, this is supposed to demonstrate that I was misguided in saying they would probably prefer money to spend on drugs or alcohol how?



welcome to the world of demographics, most stats are reported. 

No but it demonstrates that they aren't "lazy unemployed :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: in a recliner (looking for a free beer)." Instead many have health problems including alcoholism which is a disease and/or have pre-existing socio-economic barriers.
Sure you don't need to do anything to change the world, but lay off the generalizing statements that they will stab you, are lazy etc...


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## WuLabsWuTecH (Aug 12, 2009)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> while i agree withe most posts here on not handing food or money to homeless folks (I have my reasons that have nothing to do with a lack of empathy for those truely down on their luck and in need of help), can anyone honestly say that Sasha did anything morally wrong that should warrent disciplinary action?  Dispite the fact that I would not act as Sasha did, I applaud her actions and find it horrible that anyone would report an act of kindness...



She did not do anything morally wrong that warranted disciplinary action.  Which is why she did not receive any disciplinary action.  I think she was told not to do it again as it might violate some laws and the company doesn't want its personnel to be getting fined or arrested on the 5 o'clock news



VentMedic said:


> Sasha has a good heart but still violated the law and possibly endangered the safety of others including the person she was trying to help. It would be of an LEO's right to issue a ticket which would also have not been good in the eyes of her company. Safety first.  It probably wasn't about giving the food but rather the location she did the act of kindness.



Volunteering a shoup kitchen would accomplish the same thing.  I agree that sasha should not be punished for it (and she wasn't) but handing out soup kitchen cards might be more effective.


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## usafmedic45 (Aug 12, 2009)

> Just because I don't have a bitter blackened view of the world does not make me unrealisitic.



I don't think you have to be bitter to be realistic but I believe that seeing the world the way you seem to see it is patently unrealistic.  However, I do know the statistics and the chances of making a difference are worse than the chances of an asystolic patient walking out of the hospital without any cognitive deficit.  Recognizing that fact and deciding it's better to take a proactive approach (removing the incentive for these people to be standing on the street corner begging in the first place which does nothing but reduce the quality of life for the rest of us) instead of a reactive one (handouts) does not make me bitter.   If I suggested rounding them all up and "euthanizing them" ala the _Tiergartenstrasse_ 4 project, THAT would be bitter.


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## Sasha (Aug 12, 2009)

> Volunteering a soup kitchen would accomplish the same thing.



I used to volunteer at a homeless shelter but found the experience quite terrifying and did not feel safe so I had to stop.



> I've got a soft spot for the homeless also but I also know they have to find the correct channels for help and not depend on panhandling. For those I have come into contact with for medical situations, I will try whatever available to get them into the right service for help.



However, I never thought about providing resources, thank you for the suggestion.


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## usafmedic45 (Aug 12, 2009)

> welcome to the world of demographics, most stats are reported.



I know this quite well. That was the point I was getting at.



> but lay off the generalizing statements that they will stab you, are lazy etc...



When you have a population made up _largely_* of mentally unstable, drug and alcohol-addled desperate people, there is no such thing as too much caution.  People seem to forget the nature of the people you're dealing with in the rush to "help" them.  

I say "largely" based on self-reported statistics such as what Sasha cited, so you can't accuse me of generalizing.  It's extrapolation since I am simply applying other facts in evidence that all those factors tend to predispose to crime, including the violent variety.


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## usafmedic45 (Aug 12, 2009)

> I used to volunteer at a homeless shelter but found the experience quite terrifying and did not feel safe so I had to stop.



And yet you'll approach them on the street?


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## Sasha (Aug 12, 2009)

> I say "largely" based on self-reported statistics such as what Sasha cited,



Let me clarify, I am not afraid of homeless people in general, but people, homeless or not, who would come to a homeless shelter to beat, rape, rob and practically torment homeless people. It was also the gang activities in the general area where the walk back to my car was far scarier than spending time inside the shelter.


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## silver (Aug 12, 2009)

usafmedic45 said:


> .  It's extrapolation since I am simply applying other facts in evidence that all those factors tend to predispose to crime, including the violent variety.



Then one must wonder why.
Could it be that the available programs are not sufficient to meet the needs of these people?
Must the society be more supportive and proactive in their recovery?


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## Shishkabob (Aug 12, 2009)

In some states/areas panhandling is illegal...


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## daedalus (Aug 12, 2009)

> Morality has nothing to do with it. Illegal is illegal. It doesn't matter if Sasha and her little bleeding heart disagree with the law,* that still gives her no right to violate* it just to make herself feel a little better about herself anymore than I have a right to speed because I like driving at speeds approximating the liftoff speed of a corporate jet.


-USAFmedic

There are philosophers that would disagree with you on that point. Who says it is not a human right to violate unjust laws?


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## JeffDHMC (Aug 13, 2009)

*Mitzvah*

Sasha,
I hope someone like you is around if I ever need a hand.

Two fingers up to the rest.


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## Shishkabob (Aug 13, 2009)

I hope by 2 fingers, you mean pinkies, because I doubt the CL's will be too keen on the more obvious reason...


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## usafmedic45 (Aug 13, 2009)

> Then one must wonder why.


I have better things to spend my time wondering about.  



> Could it be that the available programs are not sufficient to meet the needs of these people?



Ever seen the fact that the "washout rate" in many programs geared towards helping the homeless exceeds 50% within a few weeks.  When I was younger I was really active in a lot of community outreach programs geared towards this sort of population (Didn't see that one coming did you? I know what you're wondering: What the hell happened to you then?)  Most of the clients tended to drop out around the time we started trying to place them into jobs to help them on their way to becoming self-sufficient.  I think that says a lot about the issues that arise. 



> Must the society be more supportive and proactive in their recovery?



No, it's just that a lot of people do not have the drive to better themselves no matter how bad their situation.  They expect a handout and sympathy but as soon as they have actually put some effort into it, most of them back down and carry on their status quo. We see it all the time in people who are suffering from smoking, drug abuse, etc but can't find the strength to fight for themselves.  We've bred a generation (actually two or three) that has come to believe everything should be handed to them and that they should not have to be personally accountable for their stead in life.  THAT is what gets us into messes like this.


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## usafmedic45 (Aug 13, 2009)

daedalus said:


> -USAFmedic
> 
> There are philosophers that would disagree with you on that point. Who says it is not a human right to violate unjust laws?


Yes, but I don't believe potentially endangering oneself by associating with unstable and desperate men and women for _paltry little, if any_ gain is what Thoreau had in mind nor what Gandhi, King or any other rational practitioner of that philosophy was advocating.  The idea of opposing unjust laws was implied to be applicable when civil liberties or rights were being quashed and there was much to be lost by failing to resist.  It is not a card to be played whenever the fancy strikes us.  

Violating these laws will make the problems WORSE not better as opposed to the bus boycotts or the Dandi salt tax protests.  Feeding the homeless through rogue acts will simply encourage them to be even more persistent and demanding.  The last thing we need to do is get them to associate cars as sources of free food and money.  My earlier analogy involving dogs stands although I could have easily substituted raccoons, sharks, bears or any other omnivorous opportunistic feeder.


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## usafmedic45 (Aug 13, 2009)

> Two fingers up to the rest.





> I hope by 2 fingers, you mean pinkies, because I doubt the CL's will be too keen on the more obvious reason...



If he wants to flip me off, he's got more than the right to.  Not the most mature response but I don't take offense at it and would be upset if he got in trouble for it.


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## daedalus (Aug 13, 2009)

usafmedic45 said:


> Yes, but I don't believe potentially endangering oneself by associating with unstable and desperate men and women for _paltry little, if any_ gain is what Thoreau had in mind nor what Gandhi, King or any other rational practitioner of that philosophy was advocating.  The idea of opposing unjust laws was implied to be applicable when civil liberties or rights were being quashed and there was much to be lost by failing to resist.  It is not a card to be played whenever the fancy strikes us.
> 
> Violating these laws will make the problems WORSE not better as opposed to the bus boycotts or the Dandi salt tax protests.  Feeding the homeless through rogue acts will simply encourage them to be even more persistent and demanding.  The last thing we need to do is get them to associate cars as sources of free food and money.  My earlier analogy involving dogs stands although I could have easily substituted raccoons, sharks, bears or any other omnivorous opportunistic feeder.



Touché

(10 characters)


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## VentMedic (Aug 13, 2009)

There are some states that are in a crisis mode with their state budget that has hampered many programs that provide social and public medical services. As well, we now have the new homeless as a result of the economic situation. California is probably the hardest hit and I have seen first hand the results of budget cuts.

Anyone can do a quick search for stats but until you spend some time in the area, see vacant houses, closed clinics and an increase in homeless people that look like they don't belong on the street, you probably will have a hard time comprehending the magnitude of the situation. I am also saddened by the number of people who have lost their homes due to bankruptcy. Yes, they probably shouldn't have gotten suckered by some of the loans out there but nonetheless, they still lost a big investment. 

At times I have a hard time believing this the United States. 

This is the San Diego area.
http://www.eastcountymagazine.org/?q=node/1586


> 97% of those responding were negatively impacted by last year’s 3 % reduction in funding.
> • 75% said they would continue to provide services for the next 12 months with a 3 % reduction in reimbursement rates.
> • 66% said they could not continue to provide services with an additional 7% reduction in reimbursement rates. Some organizations stated they could survive just two-three months; others cited plans to reorganize and work to fund raise the shortfall.
> • 73% of organizations providing day programs said their clients would have no other place to go to receive services if they close; 3% may be homeless as a result of the loss of the program.
> ...


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## karaya (Aug 13, 2009)

There's a reason signs at the zoo say, 'Please don't feed the animals'.


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## daedalus (Aug 13, 2009)

Ray! I always see your photography in my lectures, it makes me think of you (obviously). 

(way off topic)


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## karaya (Aug 13, 2009)

daedalus said:


> Ray! I always see your photography in my lectures, it makes me think of you (obviously).
> 
> (way off topic)


 
Thanks man!  Shot the cover to this month's JEMS also (third time in a year)!

(back on topic)  In my experience, most of the bummers are not there for food, but for money and usually get it.  Hence, like the zoo, 'don't feed the animals'.  They'll just keep coming back for more.


----------



## WuLabsWuTecH (Aug 13, 2009)

JeffDHMC said:


> Sasha,
> I hope someone like you is around if I ever need a hand.
> 
> Two fingers up to the rest.





Linuss said:


> I hope by 2 fingers, you mean pinkies, because I doubt the CL's will be too keen on the more obvious reason...



He's obviously giving us a peace sign!


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## mikeN (Aug 13, 2009)

No policy against it, but there are so many people at intersections for some reason now that no one even bothers to give a second glance.   I think police told homeless and/or panhandlers people to stay away from fire, police and ems.


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## VentMedic (Aug 13, 2009)

mikeN said:


> *No policy against it*, but there are so many people at intersections for some reason now that no one even bothers to give a second glance. I think police told homeless and/or panhandlers people to stay away from fire, police and ems.


 
Again, your company does not need a policy. Massachusetts has the same law on the books as many of the other states. Whether or not LEOs decide to enforce it is another issue. However, that still does not give *YOU *the right to violate the law or actively encourage someone else to do so. 



> law prohibits panhandlers from “intentionally or recklessly blocking or interfering with” vehicles or people. The law also bars beggars from soliciting near banks and ATMs or “in an aggressive manner.”


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## paramedichopeful (Aug 13, 2009)

Sasha: For one thing, I'm glad you tried to help the guy out. That is what the job is about, helping others and being caring and supportive. Secondly, I don't see where it would be in a policy or SOP in Illinois. Just ask your director or whomever is in charge to show you where it says that is expressly prohibited. And last but not least, liability. This comes from years of being sat down and having to listen to 3-hour apiece life lesson stories from my uncle (he put 27 years into the Illinois State Police; I think he'd be someone you could learn from). But anyway, you give some bum a McChicken and a Coke, and as you pull away they take down your license plate #. 2 weeks later you get called into the office by the superiors and they hand you legal papers: Lo and behold, hungry bum that you fed is suing you AND the company you work for on the claim that the food you gave him caused him to get sick. Even better, the diarrhea that the food caused dehydrated him to the point of where he had to be hospitalized. They sue you for giving them the food, and they sue your employer because you were in their bus when it happened. Everyone is so sue happy anymore; the slightest act of kindness can get your *** slammed. 

So, I'm glad you tried to help, and I'm happy to see that you care about those in your community. But, a single homeless bum isn't worth you (or your partner's, for that matter) career. I mean this in good attitude; don't want to come across as a jerk. Good luck with this and hopefully nothing will become of this incident.


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## VentMedic (Aug 13, 2009)

paramedichopeful said:


> Just ask your director or whomever is in charge to show you where it says that is expressly prohibited.


 
I already posted the law as it pertains to Florida, where Sasha is, and other states. There does not need to be a company policy specific to this. There are many, many laws on the books that a company shouldn't have to repeat in their policy manuals. However, as for any citizen, there are some that you should be aware of for your own safety and that of others. This was a good learning experience and hopefully it made some aware of what to do and what not to do. You can still be kind to the homeless and even panhandlers but you must also be aware of the scene around you and of your own personal safety when you open your window or let your guard down.  Safety is the bigger issue here and not abuse of the homeless.


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## karaya (Aug 13, 2009)

Sasha said:


> I used to volunteer at a homeless shelter but found the experience quite terrifying and did not feel safe so I had to stop.


 
I've seen one of the St. Louis shelters and these were not the kind of folks you see in the "Grapes of Wrath".


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## usafmedic45 (Aug 13, 2009)

> Secondly, I don't see where it would be in a policy or SOP in Illinois.



Well, keep in mind that the case I mentioned earlier where one of my EMTs was ticketed happened in Illinois so as has been said repeatedly in this thread: It does not matter what the company says since state and local laws are going to trump them.

EDIT:  Ooops, VentMedic beat me to it.


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## wyoskibum (Aug 13, 2009)

Sasha said:


> We had just bought lunch,* and gotten a call*. So we were driving to our call and got off the interstate, waiting at the light.



I'm thinking the main reason you got yelled at was because you were responding to call.  This situation has the potential to delay your response, possibly causing you to be negligent in your Duty to Act.

Regardless of the opinions here about the homeless problems. I think you have a big heart and you are a good person.  At the end of the day, you have to look at yourself in the mirror and to be able to sleep at night.  Continue to do what you believe to be right, just perhaps not while on duty, wearing the company uniform, or driving the company vehicle.


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## Seaglass (Aug 13, 2009)

It all seems like way to big of an issue to be made out of a relatively small interaction. Especially a charitable one.

I'm of the opinion that the homeless are just another bunch of people. As such, I treat them with some caution. I probably won't talk to them the first time I see them. Or the second, or the third. But if I keep seeing someone and they don't give me a bad feeling, I might start talking to them. And might give them something, if I get to know them and think it's worth it. I usually never give food or money--just stuff like toiletries, warm clothing, and the like. But working with the seriously mentally ill has made me paranoid about never giving much personally identifying information, so I'd never stop at work.


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## VentMedic (Aug 13, 2009)

Seaglass said:


> It all seems like way to big of an issue to be made out of a relatively small interaction.


 
I don't consider highway public safety laws to be an issue that is "small".

You do not encourage someone to put themselves in danger on a highway or at a busy intersection.

You do not encourage someone to wade through traffic to get a handout.

You do not encourage someone to remain at a heavily traffic area to risk distracting drivers that could drive into him or cause a collision which could also hit him.  

Panhandling is supposedly protected by the 1st amendment for now but not in areas where it creates an issue of safety.

Or, maybe some here are just saying to be nice to the homeless at intersections with the hopes of that person becoming a cool trauma.   The reason it is unlawful to stand on a public road is because one can easily become road kill.   As EMT(P)s you should know this as it should have been taught as part of scene safety in EMT-B class...hopefully.   

I do care about the homeless which is why I want them off the busy intersections and out of harm's way.


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## Seaglass (Aug 13, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> I don't consider highway public safety laws to be an issue that is "small".
> 
> You do not encourage someone to put themselves in danger on a highway or at a busy intersection.
> 
> ...





			
				Sasha said:
			
		

> I didn't have cash on me, only a debit card, so I handed my to go bag and a gatorade to my partner and told her to give it to the homeless man, literally right outside of our window. She does.



I'm getting the impression that nobody waded anywhere, or actually stood in any roads.

Standing on the side of a road near a stoplight is pretty common for the homeless. Not giving the guy food isn't going to stop him from standing there. Nor is giving it to him going to convince him it's a great place, since that's true of any high-traffic area for someone seeking handouts.

As for distraction, if he was just standing there with a sign, I don't think that's any more distracting than the sleeping drivers, the billboards, or those giant neon inflatable things that wave around, all of which I see all over highway exits.


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## VentMedic (Aug 13, 2009)

Seaglass said:


> I'm getting the impression that nobody waded anywhere, or actually stood in any roads.


 


Sasha said:


> So we were driving to our call and *got off the interstate,* waiting at the light.


 
Why do you not see a safety problem with standing on a road way?

If a person in a car in the far lane offers the person something, do you not think they are going to go for it? How many of these homeless may also be under the influence of some drug/alcohol or mentally impaired? 

Did you not learn any type of roadway safety anywhere even in your elementary school education?

It is difficult to enforce these safety rules because well-meaning do gooders keep the handouts coming and encouraging these individuals to put their safety at risk.

You are not doing them any favors by encouraging them to become road kill.


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## Seaglass (Aug 13, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Why do you not see a safety problem with standing on a road way?
> 
> If a person in a car in the far lane offers the person something, do you not think they are going to go for it? How many of these homeless may also be under the influence of some drug/alcohol or mentally impaired?
> 
> ...



Again, I don't see where anyone's actually standing on the asphalt. Standing on the side isn't a great idea, but it's not like anyone's supposed to be driving there either. 

Are they going to go into danger for food? Unlikely. They're pretty good at self-preservation. The ones who are so psychotic they no longer register their physical surroundings are probably not going to want to take whatever someone offers them, if they can even realize it's there. If they're addicts, they'll do anything... if they're being offered money or their substance of choice. Can't say I've seen any Gatorade addicts in group lately.

If you ever show that you have any knowledge of my education, your shots in the dark might actually start hitting. In the meantime, confusing me with Sasha is just making you look bad.


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## VentMedic (Aug 13, 2009)

Seaglass said:


> Again, I don't see where anyone's actually standing on the asphalt. Standing on the side isn't a great idea, but it's not like anyone's supposed to be driving there either.
> 
> Are they going to go into danger for food? Unlikely. They're pretty good at self-preservation. The ones who are *so psychotic they no longer register their physical surroundings* are probably not going to want to take whatever someone offers them, if they can even realize it's there. If they're addicts, they'll do anything... if they're being offered money or their substance of choice. Can't say I've seen any Gatorade addicts in group lately.
> 
> *If you ever show that you have any knowledge of my education, your shots in the dark might actually start hitting.* In the meantime, confusing me with Sasha is just making you look bad.


 
It doesn't matter what your education is because you are just too naive for your own good or to be judging what is safe.

Do you actually think cars pull up to the curb or get into the lane right next to the person? What about multiple lanes?

Do you believe those with severe psychosis will be aware of their safety and stay at a safe distance from the curb? Have you NEVER see a homeless person dart into traffic? 

You said you know about homeless people but obviously have never bothered to see what they must endure...as long as you are in your safe car.

Just google for some headlines about homeless panhandlers killed recently along the road ways. However, most don't make the news because they are no longer considered newsworthy. This is good for people like yourself who can go on believing everything is rosy in the world and there is no danger out there. 

I DO LIVE and WORK in a city (actually a couple of cities) where I have ran numerous trauma calls dealing with homeless panhandlers along the highways. I also see them daily in the ICUs. Some have been struck by cars as they waded through traffic. A few have been burnt to a crisp after having a flammable liquid tossed on them and set on fire as they stood in the intersection. Some have had their brains splattered throughout the intersection from objects thrown or extended from passing vehicles. I have responded to a homeless couple who were forced to jump over a guardrail onto the highway below when a car was playing chicken with them at an intersection. Not everyone wants to give the homeless a handout of the friendly kind.

As I have stated in this thread and several others, I want to see the homeless get help or find food and shelter in a safe place. That means not panhandling in an unsafe area. They are free to panhandle in front of Macy's where the risk is less. They can go to a soup kitchen for food. I will not ever encourage one to put their life in danger if there is a better way. 

As long as you and others continue to look the other way or justify your own behavior, they will continue to risk being on that intersection waiting for you to come along with a handout.


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## MSDeltaFlt (Aug 13, 2009)

Wow.  7 pages in 16hrs.  What started out as a mole hill, to reach the top, one would be far beyond their vertical limit.


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## VentMedic (Aug 13, 2009)

MSDeltaFlt said:


> Wow. 7 pages in 16hrs. What started out as a mole hill, to reach the top, one would be far beyond their vertical limit.


 
Homelessness is a serious subject and it is unfortunate that the EMS certificates are not long enough to address social and economics issues. Actually, the public safety side is also not addressed or at a very watered down and misleading level.

It is one thing to say you want to help the homeless but it is something else to know how to help them and keep them from being harmed or harming others.  While your heart might be in the right place, the way you choose to go about helping someone may not be.


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## usafmedic45 (Aug 13, 2009)

> Are they going to go into danger for food? Unlikely.



I'm siding with Vent on this one because she has a very valid point.  They can, will and do endanger themselves.  



> However, most don't make the news because they are no longer considered newsworthy.



When I worked as a deputy coroner we had three in a month that darted into traffic and were struck by cars trying to get to someone offering them something.  Not a single one even made any of the local newspapers or the television news.  So, yes, they don't think clearly and that does not require mental illness.  A moment's inattention- as we're all well aware- can find you as someone's new hood ornament regardless of whether you're a bum or a noble EMT with a heart of gold. 



> A few have been burnt to a crisp after having a flammable liquid tossed on them and set on fire as they stood in the intersection.



Wow....that's really :censored::censored::censored::censored:ing sick.  I may not like the homeless but that's just wrong.  



> It doesn't matter what your education is because you are just too naive for your own good or to be judging what is safe.



Vent, careful now.....this has been a civil discussion thus far.  Let's try to keep it that way.  No one need to go there.


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## Seaglass (Aug 13, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> It doesn't matter what your education is because you are just too naive for your own good or to be judging what is safe.



Then why go after it in the first place? Likewise, I'll care about how naive you think I am when you know about my life. 



> Do you actually think cars pull up to the curb or get into the lane right next to the person? What about multiple lanes?
> 
> Do you believe those with severe psychosis will be aware of their safety and stay at a safe distance from the curb? Have you NEVER see a homeless person dart into traffic?



Of course I have. Never because they were going to grab something someone was offering them from a car.



> You said you know about homeless people but obviously have never bothered to see what they must endure...as long as you are in your safe car.
> 
> Just google for some headlines about homeless panhandlers killed recently along the road ways. However, most don't make the news because they are no longer considered newsworthy. This is good for people like yourself who can go on believing everything is rosy in the world and there is no danger out there.
> 
> I DO LIVE and WORK in a city (actually a couple of cities) where I have ran numerous trauma calls dealing with homeless panhandlers along the highways. I also see them daily in the ICUs. Some have been struck by cars as they waded through traffic. A few have been burnt to a crisp after having a flammable liquid tossed on them and set on fire as they stood in the intersection. Some have had their brains splattered throughout the intersection from objects thrown or extended from passing vehicles. I have responded to a homeless couple who were forced to jump over a guardrail onto the highway below when a car was playing chicken with them at an intersection. Not everyone wants to give the homeless a handout of the friendly kind.



How would it be possible for me to work in shelters and in EMS and not see it?



> As I have stated in this thread and several others, I want to see the homeless get help or find food and shelter in a safe place. That means not panhandling in an unsafe area. They are free to panhandle in front of Macy's where the risk is less. They can go to a soup kitchen for food. I will not ever encourage one to put their life in danger if there is a better way.
> 
> As long as you and others continue to look the other way or justify your own behavior, they will continue to risk being on that intersection waiting for you to come along with a handout.



As you know everything about the population, I'll spare you the lecture on how some of them think that the soup kitchen is run by brainsucking aliens, or how the cops will drive them away from Macy's or the safer parks, or how local governments often make going to the shelter and finding work mutually exclusive.  

Meanwhile, you're confusing me with Sasha again. I've never given anything out at an intersection. Haven't said intersections are the safest places to panhandle, either. I simply think that it's naive to think giving or not giving one meal will make a difference in the behavior as a whole. I also think that Sasha doesn't deserve all that bashing for an essentially kind action.


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## VentMedic (Aug 13, 2009)

Seaglass said:


> Then why go after it in the first place? Likewise, I'll care about how naive you think I am when you know about my life.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Why are you so pro play in traffic which is not in the best interest of their safety? You try to come off like you are a big advocate for them but yet seem bent on justifying behavior that can get them harmed or killed.

Are you really that naive about just "one meal"? 

I seriously don't believe you are the advocate you think yourself to believe nor do you have enough experience to have seen what the homeless go through. Your posts are clearly demonstrating that.  On the other hand, I guess you are doing your part to reduce the homeless population by encouraging unsafe behavior. 

Actually if you knew much about the laws and panhandling you would know that some areas are protected by the 1st amendment and that includes in front of Macy's as long as they do not display aggressive behavior.

Brainsucking aliens running soup kitchens? Our soup kitchens are popular and not run by brainsucking aliens. Is this the image you promote which justifies your own behavior?


----------



## Seaglass (Aug 13, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Why are you so pro play in traffic which is not in the best interest of their safety? You try to come off like you are a big advocate for them but yet seem bent on justifying behavior that can get them harmed or killed.
> 
> Are you really that naive about just "one meal"?
> 
> I seriously don't believe you are the advocate you think yourself to believe nor do you have enough experience to have seen what the homeless go through. Your posts are clearly demonstrating that.  On the other hand, I guess you are doing your part to reduce the homeless population by encouraging unsafe behavior.



Yep, really. I'm not naive enough to think that one person giving a handout, or one thread on the internet, will change anything. Only fences, or serious laws and enforcement will stop them from sitting on roadsides with signs. In the meantime, people who give stuff to them at red lights rank very low on the list of their concerns. 

I'm not an advocate, either. I'm familiar with them and do some work with them. No more, no less. 



> Actually if you knew much about the laws and panhandling you would know that some areas are protected by the 1st amendment and that includes in front of Macy's as long as they do not display aggressive behavior.



Who said anything about laws? The store asks the cops, and the cops get them to leave. I don't think we have very many anti-loitering or anti-panhandling laws, but nobody's ever challenged the practice, far as I've heard. 

Besides, what's to stop the store from claiming they're aggressive?



> Brainsucking aliens running soup kitchens? Our soup kitchens are popular and not run by brainsucking aliens. Is this the image you promote which justifies your own behavior?



Our soup kitchens are very popular with those sane enough to attend them... who are rarely the same people you find sitting at intersections during mealtimes, if there's one nearby. 

But you've got it pegged--I'm secretly a brainsucking alien. I'm just pretending to be an EMT and work with the homeless online for kicks.


----------



## VentMedic (Aug 13, 2009)

Seaglass said:


> In the meantime, people who give stuff to them at red lights rank very low on the list of their concerns.


 
It doesn't mean you have to be the one giving them money and food in traffic areas or condoning those who do.



Seaglass said:


> I'm not an advocate, either. I'm familiar with them and do some work with them. No more, no less.


 
I advocate for better alternatives for them. Sorry if you care only when convenient for you but I do not want to see them harmed even if I am not always in agreement for their reasons to be where they are. There are many issues here and just a little awareness can make a difference. This is a public forum read by many and sometimes people do pick up some information that at least gives them the motivation to investigate further. 




Seaglass said:


> Who said anything about laws? The store asks the cops, and the cops get them to leave. I don't think we have very many anti-loitering or anti-panhandling laws, *but nobody's ever challenged the practice*, far as I've heard.


 
*I* have repeatedly stated laws pertaining to the issues in this thread. If you live and work in an area, one should know at least some of the laws. Sasha was not aware of the law for her area and now she is. The panhandling laws are being challenged in many states right now which is why I mentioned it earlier and continue to mention the 1st amendment which is what they are basing their rights on. Before you spout off stuff as facts, do a little checking first. I already mentioned "google" earlier which is an internet search engine. 

*And again, think about safety for the panhandler, yourself and those that drive in the area.*


----------



## Seaglass (Aug 13, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> I advocate for better alternatives for them. Sorry if you care only when convenient for you but I do not want to see them harmed even if I am not always in agreement for their reasons to be where they are. There are many issues here and just a little awareness can make a difference. This is a public forum read by many and sometimes people do pick up some information that at least gives them the motivation to investigate further.



Wish I could agree, but I've become very jaded about internet activism and awareness-raising in general. It's all too easy to care online, and rarely does it translate to change in the real world.

Meanwhile, I think answering compassionate real-world actions with rants is very counterproductive. Feedback, sure, but this thread is pretty ridiculous. 



> *I* have repeatedly stated laws pertaining to the issues in this thread. If you live and work in an area, one should know at least some of the laws. Sasha was not aware of the law for her area and now she is. The panhandling laws are being challenged in many states right now which is why I mentioned it earlier and continue to mention the 1st amendment which is what they are basing their rights on. Before you spout off stuff as facts, do a little checking first. I already mentioned "google" earlier which is an internet search engine.
> 
> *And again, think about safety for the panhandler, yourself and those that drive in the area.*



"As far as I've heard"=speaking from my own experience, not citing something as fact.

It wasn't a literal question. I was saying it happens here, legal or not, and will likely keep happening unless it gets massive media attention or enforced penalties attached. Until then, we all know how much cops like people who exercise their first amendment rights, especially when they happen to be homeless. 

I am thinking about safety, or I'd think it was safe for them to come into the road, and wouldn't keep saying that I don't think the side of the road is the best place. But I'll always consider the likelihood of what could've happened, rather than the possibility existing at all in the first place. And if that likelihood seems pretty low, I'm not going to spout off about safety first.


----------



## VentMedic (Aug 13, 2009)

Seaglass said:


> Wish I could agree, but I've become very jaded about internet activism and awareness-raising in general. It's all too easy to care online, and rarely does it translate to change in the real world.
> 
> Meanwhile, I think answering compassionate real-world actions with rants is very counterproductive. Feedback, sure, but this thread is pretty ridiculous.


 
What part of safety or homelessness do you find ridiculous?

It is too bad that you haven't gotten away from your computer to see what can be done. I don't just type on a computer but have been active in finding ways or better alternatives to get some of the homeless pointed in a direction where they can get the resources they need. 

I an not a new EMT with a jaded view. It is sad that you have become jaded so early as an EMT. I have managed to work in healthcare for over 30 years by looking for ways to continue to improve the care provided to patients or others in need. I have also gone through several hurricanes and know first hand there are no true stereotypes to being homeless. However, I still would rather they find a safer location than in a traffic area. 

Get off your butt to see what is out there and where you can make a difference. To criticize those of us who do work to make a difference, no matter how small, is just narrow minded and very, very jaded.


----------



## Seaglass (Aug 13, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> What part of safety or homelessness do you find ridiculous?
> 
> It is too bad that you haven't gotten away from your computer to see what can be done. I don't just type on a computer but have been active in finding ways or better alternatives to get some of the homeless pointed in a direction where they can get the resources they need.
> 
> ...



Don't you mean my UFO? 

Seriously, I wouldn't be bothered with explaining stuff to someone who thinks I'm an internet fake if I weren't really bored at work and trying to stay awake. Seeing how that is the case, though...

Once again, you're criticizing what you don't know. I've made a lot of attempts at making a difference, and continue to make them. Some end well; some don't. My time trying to help the homeless has shown me why shelter people and caseworkers have such high turnover rates. There are only a few clients I feel like I've really been able to do much for, and there are always more people falling into the cycle to replace them. Meanwhile, new people who come in with good attitudes tend to be crushed by people such as yourself, who constantly nitpick everything they do in a particularly unsupportive manner. So, almost everyone who started with me is gone. And I will be too in a few more months. But being jaded on this particular issue doesn't mean I'm jaded on life, EMS, or different ways of doing good. There will always be more areas that could use some help...


----------



## VentMedic (Aug 13, 2009)

Seaglass said:


> Don't you mean my UFO?
> 
> Seriously, I wouldn't be bothered with explaining stuff to someone who thinks I'm an internet fake if I weren't really bored at work and trying to stay awake. Seeing how that is the case, though...
> 
> Once again, *you're criticizing what you don't know*. *I've made a lot of attempts at making a difference*, and continue to make them. Some end well; some don't. My time trying to help the homeless has shown me why shelter people and caseworkers have such high turnover rates. There are only a few clients I feel like I've really been able to do much for, and there are always more people falling into the cycle to replace them. Meanwhile, new people who come in with good attitudes tend to be crushed by people such as yourself, *who constantly nitpick everything they do in a particularly unsupportive manner.* So, almost everyone who started with me is gone. And I will be too in a few more months. But being jaded on this particular issue doesn't mean I'm jaded on life, EMS, or different ways of doing good. There will always be more areas that could use some help...


 
Your many posts on this thread have provided a good view into your beliefs.   You also contradict yourself way too many times with the "no more, no less" comments.   That lends very little credibility to the experience you claim to have.  

So you couldn't help the whole world and  you are discarding the few that you did help?   Maybe it is time for you to move on sooner rather than later if you can not see any good in your work and only look at the negative.  If you don't believe in what you are doing, others won't either and that includes those you are supposedly trying to help.  

The fact that you believe I am crushing your "good" attitude by telling you to be safe and respect of safety of others shows you may not be as committed as you think to whatever you are doing.

Also, take a look at the turnover rate for EMTs and you might have an awakening there also.  

Again and again, I want people to check out the facts for themselves which is why I usually provide link to resources.

Again and again, I would like some to think outside of EMS to see a whole world of human life in various social and economic positions.   

 Again and again, I am not going to condone someone to do something that will get them a ticket.   

*SAFETY!   Whether you are in an ambulance or in your own vehicle you must remember the area around you.  PERIOD.   Is this really that difficult of a concept?   That is my whole message here.  *


----------



## Seaglass (Aug 13, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Your many posts on this thread have provided a good view into your beliefs.   You also contradict yourself way too many times with the "no more, no less" comments.   That lends very little credibility to the experience you claim to have.



How so? You've been saying I'm something I never was--an advocate. I'm not into politics, consciousness-raising activities, or any of that. Calling anyone who works with a cause an advocate seems like a stretch to me... 



> So you couldn't help the whole world and  you are discarding the few that you did help?   Maybe it is time for you to move on sooner rather than later if you can not see any good in your work and only look at the negative.  If you don't believe in what you are doing, others won't either and that includes those you are supposedly trying to help.



Go reread the post. I'm not giving up on the world or other ways of trying to do good. I'm just giving up on working with this particular issue, perhaps only at my particular place. Most of the few clients I think I actually helped have graduated. The ones left will by the time I leave. And yeah, the rest is all part of why I'm leaving now. 



> The fact that you believe I am crushing your "good" attitude by telling you to be safe and respect of safety of others shows you may not be as committed as you think to whatever you are doing.



I was mostly referring to the general attitude towards the OP, since I tend to have a thick enough skin and (as you've noticed) not much good attitude left to lose on the subject. I disagree with some of the content, but it's the attitude that really disgusted me. 



> Also, take a look at the turnover rate for EMTs and you might have an awakening there also.



It'll be too early to say for a few years, but the possibility would be a terrible reason not to try. I'm loving the work so far, which has been a good sign in the past. I never loved working with the homeless.



> SAFETY! Whether you are in an ambulance or in your own vehicle you must remember the area around you. PERIOD. Is this really that difficult of a concept? That is my whole message here.



Yeah, safety's important. Nobody's disagreed with that--only the details.


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## WuLabsWuTecH (Aug 13, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Again, your company does not need a policy. Massachusetts has the same law on the books as many of the other states. Whether or not LEOs decide to enforce it is another issue. However, that still does not give *YOU *the right to violate the law or actively encourage someone else to do so.





VentMedic said:


> I already posted the law as it pertains to Florida, where Sasha is, and other states. There does not need to be a company policy specific to this. There are many, many laws on the books that a company shouldn't have to repeat in their policy manuals. However, as for any citizen, there are some that you should be aware of for your own safety and that of others. This was a good learning experience and hopefully it made some aware of what to do and what not to do. You can still be kind to the homeless and even panhandlers but you must also be aware of the scene around you and of your own personal safety when you open your window or let your guard down.  Safety is the bigger issue here and not abuse of the homeless.



Don't break laws while on duty.  Yeah, someone mentioned the philosophers and them saying things about breaking laws you find unjust.  Go right ahead, but your employers has the option (and rightly so) of immediately terminating you for doing something ILLEGAL. 



karaya said:


> I've seen one of the St. Louis shelters and these were not the kind of folks you see in the "Grapes of Wrath".



This is why I generally don't venture into the city that much.  We'll stay out here in West/Central county!  Although the city is really nice in the day, i've only been there once in the night and it was a different place!



VentMedic said:


> Why do you not see a safety problem with standing on a road way?
> 
> If a person in a car in the far lane offers the person something, do you not think they are going to go for it? How many of these homeless may also be under the influence of some drug/alcohol or mentally impaired?
> 
> ...



I'm also against those charities that allowed to solicit for cash at intersections.  They just cause too many problems even if they are wearing the yellow jackets.  You have to drive around them, which is hard on narrow intersections.  People get irritated at them since the light is green but the guy in front of them is still trying to get his wallet out holding everyone back.  Then the people behind them gun their engines at the workers who get startled and step into oncoming traffic...

Homeless people are worse, they don't know about safety regs and don't have the yellow jackets.


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## Sasha (Aug 13, 2009)

A couple of things, I would never encourage someone to cross traffic. He was standing in the grass right outside our window. 

However, I didn't realize I was not only unintentionally encouraging him to panhandle in dangerous places, but breaking a law.

Some of you have brought up valid points that had never crossed my mind and I will definitely remember it next time I see a homeless person.

Thank you very much.


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## WuLabsWuTecH (Aug 13, 2009)

Any time sasha!

I also applaud you for thinking things through and learning and reevaluating as that is what this forum should be used for.  Let Sasha be an example to any newbies out there reading this that the knee jerk defensive reflex should not be invoked everytime someone disagrees with you.  We had a topic, and we had good discussion about it.  Sasha is reevaluating (doesn't mean she'll change her opinion, but she'll at least look at it) and learning!


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## Sasha (Aug 13, 2009)

WuLabsWuTecH said:


> Any time sasha!
> 
> I also applaud you for thinking things through and learning and reevaluating as that is what this forum should be used for.  Let Sasha be an example to any newbies out there reading this that the knee jerk defensive reflex should not be invoked everytime someone disagrees with you.  We had a topic, and we had good discussion about it.  Sasha is reevaluating (doesn't mean she'll change her opinion, but she'll at least look at it) and learning!



I actually think I will try to take a page out of Vent's book and instead provide resources as oppose to $5 or a lunch. She is absolutely correct, that is the best way to approach the problem of homelessness. You know.. feed a man a fish for a day and he fishes for a lifetime.


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## VentMedic (Aug 13, 2009)

Sasha said:


> I actually think I will try to take a page out of Vent's book and instead provide resources as oppose to $5 or a lunch. She is absolutely correct, that is the best way to approach the problem of homelessness. You know.. feed a man a fish for a day and he fishes for a lifetime.


 
Don't be surprised if some, actually very few, will be receptive to help. Some have come to the expectation that they are entitled to handouts if they stand on a corner. Those I ignor. Their expectations are reinforced each time someone does give them something. But, those that do take a flier or advice will might make your day. Or, you may never know if you made a difference. They just have to seek out the resources that are available. 

Even I, while in SF last week, gave a couple of dollars to an elderly lady sitting in front of Macy's at Union Square. She was holding a kitten and some type of rat both curled up in her lap and asleep. I asked her if she had a place to stay as I did have a couple of business cards in my pocket and she assured me she did.


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## Sasha (Aug 13, 2009)

Contrary to popular belief, I do not have an unrealistic idea of the world, I know some people simply cannot be helped because they wont help themselves.


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## ResTech (Aug 13, 2009)

I personally do not (okay, very rarely) give money to homeless people. Most of the homeless I see are standing at the entrances to Wal-Mart which is attached to a large strip mall with about 40 stores and 10 restaurants. If they are that hungry and need money, out of 50 businesses someone is sure to hire them.  

Too many people are making a bigger deal out of this than it needs to be. Its not even a big deal what Sasha did. Vent, you make it out as if she committed some big offense because she gave some homeless person some food. I find it very noble honestly. I can say I prob wouldn't have done that. 

Law or not, I would have a very hard time coming down on anyone who did a humanitarian act like Sasha did. That is what is wrong with the world. Everyone looks out for themselves and never wants to take a chance to do the right thing or to reach out a hand.   

If a motorist is disabled or needs directions, do not offer any help... heaven forbid we stop our vehicle or roll down our window to offer help. We dont want to obstruct the traffic flow... how ridiculous.


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## Sasha (Aug 13, 2009)

> If they are that hungry and need money, out of 50 businesses someone is sure to hire them.



Would you honestly hire a homeless person? You can have 50 applicants with a home, who are likely to show up bathed, smelling pleasently with clean clothes as oppose to a homeless person who'se wearing the same shirt from two weeks ago and probably doesn't have the best dental hygeine. Probably has very few marketable skills. Also many people employ the idea that homeless people are all lazy and bad workers.

From a business point of view, hiring a homeless person isn't prudent.


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## ResTech (Aug 13, 2009)

While you make some good points... I guess it all depends on who the manager is doing the hiring. Personally, if I were the manager and a homeless person came to me for a job and appeared to genuinely be interested in working, I would prob pick them because they are obviously in great need of money and a chance to get back on their feet. 



> From a business point of view, hiring a homeless person isn't prudent.



Everyone want's to whine and complain about the homeless as being lazy and not working, yet they show up with an application in hand for a job and you won't hire them? What's up with that?

But that's just me.


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## VentMedic (Aug 13, 2009)

ResTech said:


> Its not even a big deal what Sasha did. Vent, you make it out as if she committed some big offense because she gave some homeless person some food. I find it very noble honestly. I can say I prob wouldn't have done that.


 
Just want to save her the embarrassment of a ticket or from being on the unemployment line herself. 

This is an anonymous forum and you could probably care less about what crap advice you give her all in the sake of your own ill informed ideas about what you think of the law. 



> If a motorist is disabled or needs directions, do not offer any help... heaven forbid we stop our vehicle or roll down our window to offer help. We dont want to obstruct the traffic flow... how ridiculous.


 
Are you really that clueless about moving to a safe area for yourself and the person you are helping? When you stop your vehicle in a roadway with traffic still moving, you had better take precautions. It only takes a couple of seconds for you to become a disabled person yourself by lacking in good judgement.


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## ResTech (Aug 13, 2009)

> This is an anonymous forum and you could probably care less about what crap advice you give her all in the sake of your own ill informed ideas about what you think of the law.



I do think some laws are "crap" and personally dont care what you think of my advice. I think your advice is "crap" most of the time and think you like to micro analyze and micro manage based on your own high and almighty education, status, and experience.

Least I consider all views and can be totally objective and don't criticize EVERY single post and opinion someone makes.


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## JesseM515 (Aug 13, 2009)

usafmedic45 said:


> No, just I don't believe in giving handouts to those who generally choose not to help themselves.  It's one thing to reach out a hand to help someone up, but it's a completely separate one to do the social equivalent of bringing some lazy unemployed :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: in a recliner a free beer so he doesn't have to get up and get it himself let alone work for it.  I look at the homeless a lot like I do dogs: don't reinforce the behavior you don't want to encourage them to keep doing.



very well put. I couldn't have said this better myself. unless I included more expletives haha

I once had a "down on his luck homeless person" approach me when I lived in Vegas and ask me for money after giving me a "sob story". I pulled out my wallet and gave him $5 and he asked if I could give anymore!!!! I wanted to beat that guy's face in... I guess I'm a bad person for not supporting people that are "down on their luck" and can't support themselves!


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## VentMedic (Aug 13, 2009)

ResTech said:


> I do think some laws are "crap" and personally dont care what you think of my advice. I think your advice is "crap" most of the time and think you like to micro analyze and micro manage based on your own high and almighty education, status, and experience.
> 
> Least I consider all views and can be totally objective.


 

As you get more education and come out of your teen years, you learn to think things through a little better.

Most of your advice is given with reckless regard for facts, even when they are handed to you, and of little concern for the consequences especially to others.


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## ResTech (Aug 13, 2009)

Oh, okay Vent, all the information I post is wrong? Is that what your saying? Please, search my posts and point out my erroneous information and advice I have provided. 

If it is not correct or I am not sure if it is correct, Im not gonna post it. I stand-by and can back up everything I have posted as being factual.


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## Sasha (Aug 13, 2009)

Great googly moogly. Must everything be a fight? I am not fighting the posts anyone made, why is everyone else? I understand where Vent, Wu, Linuss and others are coming from. This is why I made the thread, so others could help me understand why it's a bad idea, and they have. I thank them for it.

Now can we STOP fighting? Pretty please? 



> I'm thinking the main reason you got yelled at was because you were responding to call. This situation has the potential to delay your response, possibly causing you to be negligent in your Duty to Act.



I also wanted to address this, we were responding to a scheduled pick up that we had over an hour left on, just wanted to move closer due to the fact it was approaching rush hour and traffic gets BAD. We had no duty to act.


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## ResTech (Aug 13, 2009)

Sasha.. we dont always agree, but I think your heart was definitely in the right place and think you did not do anything worth getting disciplined for. As I'm sure you dont make it an everyday occurrence.


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## VentMedic (Aug 13, 2009)

ResTech said:


> Oh, okay Vent, all the information I post is wrong? Is that what your saying? Please, search my posts and point out my erroneous information and advice I have provided.
> 
> If it is not correct or I am not sure if it is correct, Im not gonna post it. *I stand-by and can back up everything I have posted as being factual.*


 
Where to start...

Yes, you stand by it even when information is posted from the manufacturer's website that you are wrong.


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## bstone (Aug 13, 2009)

Out of all the petty and ridiculous things to waste time on. The person who reported you (either a fellow EMT or civilian) needs to get their priorities checked.

Bravo on giving the homeless guy food.


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## ResTech (Aug 13, 2009)

Your so full of facts and links so lets see it... what r u talking about? The classification of Atrovent as an emergency drug debate and the *CONTEXT* of "emergency"?


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## VentMedic (Aug 14, 2009)

ResTech said:


> Your so full of facts and links so lets see it... what r u talking about? The classification of Atrovent as an emergency drug debate and the *CONTEXT* of "emergency"?


 
Again, read the insert.  Even if it is also used along with albuterol, it is NEVER to be considered an emergency drug.    Magnesium sulfate can also be used in an emergency situation for asthma but that does not make it an emergency or first line medication. 

Read  and try to understand.  Better yet, take a pharmacology class so you will learn the differences and not just take one sentence out of context.


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## ResTech (Aug 14, 2009)

1) I never insinuated it was a first line drug and never would insinuate such. 

2) I said it COULD be constituted as an emergency drug when and ONLY WHEN combined with a beta-2 agonist given its additive effect to the albuterol and in the context of EMS discussion when Atrovent is commonly listed as an emergency drug in drug listings and many protocols. NO IT IS NOT A RESCUE MEDICATION AND NEVER SAID IT WAS...

Oh, and I already took a pharmacology course lest semester... passed it with an A... as did I pass the other pharmacology course with an "A" I took  a few years ago. 

I have a ways to go... believe me I know... but don't make broad accusations and make me out to be giving false information.


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## Summit (Aug 14, 2009)

"You can't fight in here! This is the War Room!" -President Merkin Muffley (Dr. Strangelove)

"You can't show compassion here! This is EMS!" -Sasha's supervisor (Real Life)


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## Melclin (Aug 14, 2009)

It actually illegal to give to beggars over there? What an odd country you have. You'll make it illegal to give some change to some poor idiot, but compulsory seatbelts? Well that's a civil rights violation. I tripped over and spilt coffee on myself? Well naturally that's McDonalds fault for making the coffee too hot, lets sue them. That assault rifle my son got for his birthday? That's just in case the King of England gets all up in his grill . You all need to take a leaf out of the Dutch's book and start having shop fronts where you buy food from little trapdoor vending machine heating trays, that'd solve everything. Seriously how much would that just solve all your problems: "I sure do feel like a roast dinner, I'll just go to the vending machine".  

I sure did lol when I skipped a few pages reading this thread and came in at the end of an argument about atrovent. We really are good at getting off topic aren't we. 

Sasha, I'd be pissed off too. Regardless of the fact you have cleeearly ripped apart the fabric of civilized society by giving that bloke a bite<_<, Good on ya for having a heart.


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## VentMedic (Aug 14, 2009)

Melclin said:


> It actually illegal to give to beggars over there? What an odd country you have.


 
No, no, no! Panhandling is NOT illegal at this time in most public areas except:

*law prohibits panhandlers from “intentionally or recklessly blocking or interfering with” vehicles or people. The law also bars beggars from soliciting near banks and ATMs or “in an aggressive manner.” *

Sasha was in a vehicle coming off the interstate. 



Melclin said:


> Sasha, I'd be pissed off too. Regardless of the fact you have cleeearly ripped apart the fabric of civilized society by giving that bloke a bite<_<, Good on ya for having a heart.


 
Now, let me explain a few more things about safety. Some panhandlers are not just doing it for a little money but they are also spotting to see what you've got in your wallet or where your purse is kept. This is one reason why if I do give something to a little elderly lady sitting in front of a department store, I won't be reaching for any wallet or coin purse out of my backpack. Even if that person is not involved, others may be watching. Few men in city areas carry their wallets in their back pocket and few women carry purses that can't be placed under their jackets out of sight.

In just 2 city blocks in either Miami or San Francisco, you may encouter at at least 5 panhandlers.  Do you in all honesty have enough money to give away or buy food everyday just as you pass them to go to work?   

As well, you become an easy mark for carjacking in your POV as you are distracted by the person on the street. Even that ambulance can be an easy target. I do know in many areas, one person must remain with the truck at all times while others go to the patient. Thus, being part of a FD with plenty of responding FFs does come in handy at times. 

This has nothing to do with abusing the homeless or not having a heart but for the safety of everyone involved.


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## RESQ_5_1 (Aug 19, 2009)

I actually gave a "Domicile Challenged" individual $20 once. We were right in fornt of McDonald's. If I give him money, it's no longer mine to decide what he does with it. I'd rather give him the $20 than have him hold up some old lady cuz it was that much longer since his last fix. There was a Subway nearby, and he promptly took that $20 and went to get a footlong. I asked him why, and he said he can get more (and better) food at Subway with what I gave him.

I'm sure some Transients have less than noble uses for their money, but it's not my position to judge. Is it possible, since Sasha said she was at a red light, that she was in the lane nearest to the curb? Possible. Did the entire transaction occur and conclude before the light changed? Then possibly the flow of traffic was uninterruted.

I'm willing to look at all possible "good outcome" scenarios and say..."well done Sasha. What goes around comes around."


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## Shishkabob (Aug 19, 2009)

RESQ_5_1 said:


> I actually gave a "Domicile Challenged" individual $20 once. We were right in fornt of McDonald's. If I give him money, it's no longer mine to decide what he does with it. I'd rather give him the $20 than have him hold up some old lady cuz it was that much longer since his last fix.


  Right, because advocating their problem, and helping them get more of it, is a good thing.



> There was a Subway nearby, and he promptly took that $20 and went to get a footlong. I asked him why, and he said he can get more (and better) food at Subway with what I gave him.


  Cool... what he do with the other $15? 




> I'm willing to look at all possible "good outcome" scenarios and say..."well done Sasha. What goes around comes around."



Don't get us wrong... it's not like we are saying don't help people.  We're in EMS, remember?  I've done my "fair share" at soup kitchens Christmas day in downtown Detroit.  But giving money is not something I will do.


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## JeffDHMC (Aug 19, 2009)

All silly, every last bit. I someone wants to do something that they feel is karmatically good, so be it, I say do it again. Better yet if the do not even think about the karmatic return. Not enough do something right just for the sake of right.

Jeff


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