# iPhone App now sends users nearby a cardiac arrest a notification



## lampnyter (Jan 26, 2011)

*What do you think about this*

http://techcrunch.com/2011/01/25/ne...-alive/?icid=maing|main5|dl14|sec1_lnk3|39135

The only way this would ever work and be helpful is if only actual first responders/health care professionals were allowed to use this because i could only imagine all the kids who would get this app to try and watch some guy die. You should definitely have to get some sort of proof of your skills before getting this app.


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## vquintessence (Jan 26, 2011)

I find it worthless across the board for pedestrians & medical personnel alike.  What is the definition of "close proximity"?  Would I get a blip for somebody in cardiac arrest that is a mile away?  Should I now hop into my vehicle and drive like a bat out of hell, to "beat the ambulance" (nevermind the usually speedy arrival of LEO) and charge into some strangers home uninvited?


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## adamjh3 (Jan 26, 2011)

Absolutely useless and a plague for us. As if we don't have enough issues with bystanders on scene.


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## lightsandsirens5 (Jan 26, 2011)

I see it as just begging for chaos at the scene of a cardiac arrest and in the surrounding area. 

Not only will we not have off duty EMT-FR Rickey Rescue, who saves lives every time he steps out the door, to deal with on scene, but we will also have every iPhone user within 3 miles either on scene or trying to get there and causing accidents.


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## lampnyter (Jan 26, 2011)

vquintessence said:


> I find it worthless across the board for pedestrians & medical personnel alike.  What is the definition of "close proximity"?  Would I get a blip for somebody in cardiac arrest that is a mile away?  Should I now hop into my vehicle and drive like a bat out of hell, to "beat the ambulance" (nevermind the usually speedy arrival of LEO) and charge into some strangers home uninvited?



Its only for public places, not somebodies home.


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## Lady_EMT (Jan 26, 2011)

I have enough problems with a ton of first responders running around onscene, I don't need iPhone users in my area thinking they're entitled to run to the rescue. 

That app has "Bad Idea" written all over it.


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## usalsfyre (Jan 26, 2011)

Why does it not surprise me IAFC is mixed up in this debacle.


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## fast65 (Jan 26, 2011)

It's only January, so why are they pulling an April Fools joke on us already?

This is a horrible idea, now with every cardiac arrest, we'll have at least 3 MVC's within a 3 mile proximity. Now everyone who saw that "hands only CPR" commercial will think they're trained in it and as a result we'll end up with a bunch people fighting over who gets to beat on an arrest victims chest.

EDIT: Lampntyer, you totally commented on it


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## firetender (Jan 27, 2011)

The machine will have to know what kind of an emergency it is. There was no mention of how "it" would be dispatched. Does that mean, like a scanner, you'd just have a channel that broadcasts EVERY emergency in your vicinity? A "man down" could be an MI or a GSW or insulin-related. Grab that AED, will ya? If all ya got is a hammar, everything's a nail.

And I agree...WHO will be sent there? Not Doctors, that's for sure. In fact, if notified there's a man down on 5th St. and 10th Ave., within 10 seconds response time, there won't be a single Doc closer than 6th or 16th!

Maybe the Lawyers would get more use out of it!


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## fast65 (Jan 27, 2011)

Firetender has a good point, how will they determine what type of call it is? I mean we could have someone starting compressions on a person with a diabetic emergency because they thought they didn't have a pulse. I see more harm than good coming from this.


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## lampnyter (Jan 27, 2011)

fast65 said:


> It's only January, so why are they pulling an April Fools joke on us already?
> 
> This is a horrible idea, now with every cardiac arrest, we'll have at least 3 MVC's within a 3 mile proximity. Now everyone who saw that "hands only CPR" commercial will think they're trained in it and as a result we'll end up with a bunch people fighting over who gets to beat on an arrest victims chest.
> 
> EDIT: Lampntyer, you totally commented on it



I couldnt resist lol.


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## fast65 (Jan 27, 2011)

lampnyter said:


> I couldnt resist lol.



Haha, temptation got to me as well


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## LucidResq (Jan 27, 2011)

I don't get the point. As dispatchers we already walk people through compression-only CPR. They don't have to be trained. It may not be ideal, but it's immediate and probably better than having 8 random people who probably don't know what they're doing show up and start doing something 5-10 minutes after the call has already been made. 

The only element that would be potentially a good idea is the part about locating nearby AEDs. That way people who are already there and aware of the emergency can more easily locate an AED in an unfamiliar location.


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## LucidResq (Jan 27, 2011)

I'd also like to point out that in medical emergencies in public, it's amazing how nurses come out of the woodworks. It's crazy... it seems every other serious medical emergency in public... I'll end up talking to a nurse on scene who sounds very competent or a bystander will tell me a nurse on scene is tending to the patient and has taken charge of the scene.


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## Hockey (Jan 28, 2011)

At first I was kind of hesitant since I wouldn't want a million 'scanner jockies' showing up, but I really don't think it would bring those kind of people to the scene.  It only alerts if you are within a very close distance (under 1000 feet I believe, although some reports are 300 feet).  

Developed for a Fire Dept in California but I can see it POSSIBLY hitting more areas.


http://www.emsworld.com/article/article.jsp?id=15954


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## Aprz (Jan 28, 2011)

That's really cool. I wonder how it works though. It's not like people have a chip in them that sends out a signal saying they are in cardiac arrest. Do people around them have to use the iPhone app to notify others, or does 9-1-1 activate it, or how?


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## rwik123 (Jan 28, 2011)

Yaaaaaaa

http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=21764


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## abckidsmom (Jan 28, 2011)

LucidResq said:


> I'd also like to point out that in medical emergencies in public, it's amazing how nurses come out of the woodworks. It's crazy... it seems every other serious medical emergency in public... I'll end up talking to a nurse on scene who sounds very competent or a bystander will tell me a nurse on scene is tending to the patient and has taken charge of the scene.



In an emergency, everybody's a nurse.

I's a nuss, too, ya know.


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## jjesusfreak01 (Jan 28, 2011)

My county uses an overly complicated array of codes when they dispatch each call, which indicate what the primary complaint and the severity are. Additionally, Code Blue calls have a different siren on the radio, so they can easily be differentiated from less critical calls, and the computer voice on the radio says "code blue". So, the basic dispatch that can be picked up by scanners would have enough information to get a first responder to the scene if they were close by. If there is already an online scanner for my area, a program could be written to analyze the feed, listen for "code blue", and then send me the address if I am close.

PS: CPR is the most important key to survival in a cardiac arrest. If you can get a trained responder to the scene two minutes faster than the dispatched EMS crew, you can make a difference. Once a trained crew does get on scene, its their job to quickly clear out the unhelpful people from the helpful.


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## ffemt8978 (Jan 28, 2011)

Duplicate threads merged under newer thread title.


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## Bieber (Jan 29, 2011)

I don't really see the point.  If someone has already called 911, then dispatch can walk the caller through CPR.

Inviting people to an emergency is like inviting people to an emergency.  (And the last I checked, EMS/Fire/PD were the only ones who got an RSVP.)


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## Amycus (Jan 29, 2011)

If I'm at a real, honest-to-God emergency such as a code, the first thing I'm doing is telling bystanders and lookie-loos to get the eff out of my way, then ask/instruct the police to remove the bystanders ASAP. CPR helps a great deal when it's done properly. The shock is most important. The last thing ANY of us need are a bunch of whackers on scene who want to contribute their two cents because they took a hands-free CPR class or because they saw a few episodes of House or ER.

edit: Also, upon reading the news article, it's absolutely hysterical this article offers a picture of an iPhone, begging for CPR assistance...for those having a heart attack. There's a MAJOR MAJOR difference between a heart attack and actual cardiac arrest. If you do CPR on someone having a heart attack you're doing way more harm than good. The publisher of this article should have googled the difference to begin with.


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## medicRob (Jan 29, 2011)

I prefer mapping all my cardiac arrests in Foursquare... You get more points and prizes that way.


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## medicRob (Jan 29, 2011)

Just downloaded this app on my iPAD.. Some screenshots (Trying to hold in my laughter, I promise I am)





















The only guy who will get any use out of this app:


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## LucidResq (Jan 29, 2011)

Dear god. Hahaha. It seriously has fire alarms and basically every call in the city?


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## JJR512 (Jan 29, 2011)

OK so everyone is joking around about what this program means _right now_ but is anybody concerned about the possible future this could lead to?

Imagine this: You are just sitting home to dinner one evening when a Deputy Sheriff shows up at your door. He has a summons for you. You have been ordered to appear in court; you are being sued by the widow of an MI patient. Turns out this guy had a heart attack and set off his iPhone alarm. The "system" knows that you have this app installed on your iPhone and that it notified you there was a "medical emergency" in your area, but you didn't respond to it. So now you are being sued for failing to provide assistance that could have saved the guy's life.

Does this really seem all that far-fetched to you?


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## rwik123 (Jan 29, 2011)

JJR512 said:


> OK so everyone is joking around about what this program means _right now_ but is anybody concerned about the possible future this could lead to?
> 
> Imagine this: You are just sitting home to dinner one evening when a Deputy Sheriff shows up at your door. He has a summons for you. You have been ordered to appear in court; you are being sued by the widow of an MI patient. Turns out this guy had a heart attack and set off his iPhone alarm. The "system" knows that you have this app installed on your iPhone and that it notified you there was a "medical emergency" in your area, but you didn't respond to it. So now you are being sued for failing to provide assistance that could have saved the guy's life.
> 
> Does this really seem all that far-fetched to you?



Unless there is any explicit law stating that people who have the app, have "duty to act", this wouldn't happen I don't think.


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## JPINFV (Jan 29, 2011)

rwik123 said:


> Unless there is any explicit law stating that people who have the app, have "duty to act", this wouldn't happen I don't think.



Basically this. I have no more duty to act when off duty for a cardiac arrest than any other call.


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## rwik123 (Jan 29, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> Basically this. I have no more duty to act when off duty for a cardiac arrest than any other call.



Yea. There's currently no law regarding this app, nor will there ever be. In no way does the app tell you or instruct you to go to the incident. In a sense, it's a glorified visual scanner with more information, that in my opinion, shouldn't be available to the masses. The person who called 911 in the first place can't initiate CPR? Or do we need some dude across the street in the adjacent stripmall hauling *** over to the scene. How the fire department is backing this troubles me to begin with. For someone to call 911, there are already people on scene to begin with. Durrr


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## JJR512 (Jan 30, 2011)

rwik123 said:


> Yea. There's currently no law regarding this app, nor will there ever be.



There's _currently_ no law. _Currently._ And neither you nor anyone else can say for sure that something will never happen. Nor does there necessarily need to be a law about something for someone to be able to sue you. I didn't say that someone was going to win this lawsuit, just that they were going to file one.

In any event, I'm not saying that this scenario is going to happen, or even that it's particularly likely. Just something that maybe someday might be possible.


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## LucidResq (Jan 30, 2011)

JJR512 said:


> There's _currently_ no law. _Currently._ And neither you nor anyone else can say for sure that something will never happen. Nor does there necessarily need to be a law about something for someone to be able to sue you. I didn't say that someone was going to win this lawsuit, just that they were going to file one.
> 
> In any event, I'm not saying that this scenario is going to happen, or even that it's particularly likely. Just something that maybe someday might be possible.



There's a difference between criminal and civil matters. You don't get a cop hauling you in or ticketing you for civil lawsuits. Civil issues coming up.. Yeah maybe I guess.. If the company makes information about its users public like that. Boo on them in that case, and don't download it anyways. Otherwise I agree... Its like a scanner for dummies that just makes emergency scene tourism and whackerism more accessible.


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## 18G (Jan 31, 2011)

When I first heard about this app on one of the tech sites, I was really intrigued by it and thought it was a great use of technology. I think the concept is awesome! How practical it will actually be is a different story. 

I for one do not carry a pager with me like some when I am not working. So, if I'm at a restaraunt or some other place and I see an arrest is happening in the Mall or some other place within walking distance and I can get there within a minute or two, how is that not a great thing? Given the fact that treatment of cardiac arrest is so time dependant we need to look at every avenue possible to decrease the time of arrest to treatment. 

Given the hesitency of the general public to get involved in a strangers medical care I highly doubt your gonna have twenty people showing up to give a hand. But one or two would be a good thing. If it were someone you knew you wouldn't want someone showing up to buy precious time?

Nice concept... lets see how it works out.


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## johnmedic (Feb 1, 2011)

If there was some check for the app to ensure that only legitimate cardiac arrests or whetever "emergencies" were reported, I'd believe that a lawsuit would be in the future.. But if anyone can use the app to report an emergency, I have a feeling that some 14 year olds screwing around after school are gonna flood the map with incidents & either just watch people looking for a patient, or pretend to actually be a patient. You have no reason to believe that any reported arrests on the iphone app are actually happening.


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## HotelCo (Feb 1, 2011)

johnmedic said:


> If there was some check for the app to ensure that only legitimate cardiac arrests or whetever "emergencies" were reported, I'd believe that a lawsuit would be in the future.. But if anyone can use the app to report an emergency, I have a feeling that some 14 year olds screwing around after school are gonna flood the map with incidents & either just watch people looking for a patient, or pretend to actually be a patient. You have no reason to believe that any reported arrests on the iphone app are actually happening.



It's actually the fire department putting out the notifications.

.


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## johnmedic (Feb 1, 2011)

Noted, thanks.. Yeah, that's definitely a duty-to-act lawsuit waiting to happen. & an instant guilt-trip everytime you put your phone on silent or leave it off. Idk if I'd use the app & I've always considered myself a pager-gazer.


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## Melclin (Feb 1, 2011)

Awesome from a tech point of view, clearly ridiculous from an EMS/everything else point of view.


This particular app aside, I can see some sort of iPhone magic being useful for getting AEDs to the arhythmically challenged with a tad more haste. 

The biggest problem I see with public access AEDs is that by the time somebody remembers it, goes and gets it, has to find the key to the first aid room, comes back, trips over, and fumbles about with the AED, the coroner is ready to release their findings on the death. 

Still, I don't see how iPhones could achieve more that what a couple of security/staff could do with their radios. Additionally, they could probably do it without their radio's freezing and asking if they want to upgrade to the identical radio 2.0.  <_<

'Course, if it was a Windows phone, you'd get an annoying message saying, " You seem to be attempting a resuscitation, would you like to know the location of #req%-serv//Steakhouses?"


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## jjesusfreak01 (Feb 3, 2011)

Melclin said:


> The biggest problem I see with public access AEDs is that by the time somebody remembers it, goes and gets it, has to find the key to the first aid room, comes back, trips over, and fumbles about with the AED, the coroner is ready to release their findings on the death.



Ideally, AEDs should be stored where they can be easily seen and quickly accessed without need of keys or codes.


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## Melclin (Feb 4, 2011)

jjesusfreak01 said:


> Ideally, AEDs should be stored where they can be easily seen and quickly accessed without need of keys or codes.



_Ideally_. Most venues I've been to with an AED have had it locked in a box, upstairs, around the corner and behind several boxes of old Christmas decorations.


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## HotelCo (Feb 4, 2011)

Melclin said:


> _Ideally_. Most venues I've been to with an AED have had it locked in a box, upstairs, around the corner and behind several boxes of old Christmas decorations.



Back when I was in high school, the school officials were very proud that we had an AED. They put up signs, and taught all the teachers how to use it. Of course, the AED was in a locked cabinet, inside of a locked room, inside of the locked gymnasium... but hey, we had one. :wacko:


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## jjesusfreak01 (Feb 4, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> Back when I was in high school, the school officials were very proud that we had an AED. They put up signs, and taught all the teachers how to use it. Of course, the AED was in a locked cabinet, inside of a locked room, inside of the locked gymnasium... but hey, we had one. :wacko:



Which makes it totally useless. Although AEDs are expensive, i'm not sure how much of a black market there is for them. Put it in an alarmed box in a public place, and you're set.


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## Melclin (Feb 4, 2011)

jjesusfreak01 said:


> Which makes it totally useless. Although AEDs are expensive, i'm not sure how much of a black market there is for them. Put it in an alarmed box in a public place, and you're set.



I'm not sure the people who steal AEDs think it through that much.

"Grab that ambulance bag, we'll get wasted on their morphine inhalers".


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## Jon (Feb 5, 2011)

I'm of mixed feelings. Depends on what the proximity alert is... and that still isn't clear.

I think there is potential for great things here... but this could also be full of epic #Fail


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## LucidResq (Feb 6, 2011)

Melclin said:


> The biggest problem I see with public access AEDs is that by the time somebody remembers it, goes and gets it, has to find the key to the first aid room, comes back, trips over, and fumbles about with the AED, the coroner is ready to release their findings on the death.
> 
> Still, I don't see how iPhones could achieve more that what a couple of security/staff could do with their radios. Additionally, they could probably do it without their radio's freezing and asking if they want to upgrade to the identical radio 2.0.  <_<



We have some addresses flagged with the exact location of an AED... but not nearly enough. There's an effort in a nearby city to make a comprehensive database of where all the AEDs in public are, so 911 calltakers can easily direct a caller to the nearest one. I think such a database and having well-prepared security would do much more than members of the general public fumbling with their cell phone.


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