# EMT Boot Camp Starts Monday



## trevor1189 (Jun 11, 2009)

Here is the class description:

Day 1: Registration, Intro to Emergency Care, Well Being of the EMT, The Human Body, Lifting and Moving.

Day 2: CPR, Base Line Vital Signs.

Day 3: Airway, Airway lab, Open Lab, Written Eval.

Day 4: Scene Size-up, Initial assessment, focused physical Hx, & Physical Exam (Trauma), Focused Physical Hx and physical exam (Medical).

Day 5: Medical Legal, Ongoing Assessment, Communications, Documentation, Lab Patient Assessment.

Day 6: Eval Module 3, Respiratory Emergencies, Cardiovascular Emergencies, Lab Material to date.

Day 7: Diabetic Emergencies, Allergies, General Pharmacology, Lab Material to date.

Day 8: Poisonings/overdose, Environmental Emergencies, Behavioral, OB, Lab Material to date.

Day 9: Eval Module 4, Bleeding & Shock, Soft Tissue Injury, Lab Bleeding and Shock.

Day 10: Musculoskeletal Care, Chest/Abdomen, Injuries to the Head and Spine, Open Lab.

Day 11: Lab Trauma, Eval Module 5.

Day 12: Infants & Children, Lab Material to Date, Ambulance Ops, Overviews.

Day 13: Gaining Access, Open Lab.

Day 14: Situational Reviews, Open Lab.

Day 15: Local Final Written, Open Lab.

Day 16: Local Final Eval Practical.

Day 17: State Final Practical Exam, State Final Practical Re-test

Day 18: State Final Written.

Day 19: (Optional Makeup)


Just wondering for you other PA EMS providers, when will I have my actual certificate. Am I waiting for them to mail it to me or do I get it upon successful completion of the course.

Also, since this is a fast paced course and seeing the course outline, is there anything that you think I should do additional education on (yes I am planning on getting my Paramedic, but I mean immediately)? The anatomy and stuff I am pretty good on from High School Advanced Bio and I also have had Bio and Chem in college.

Thanks for the input in advanced.


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## Shishkabob (Jun 11, 2009)

No clinicals?


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## Flight-LP (Jun 11, 2009)

trevor1189 said:


> Just wondering for you other PA EMS providers, when will I have my actual certificate



After retaking the test because of a substandard training course that insufficiently covered the material..............................


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## djmedic913 (Jun 11, 2009)

trevor1189 said:


> Just wondering for you other PA EMS providers, when will I have my actual certificate. Am I waiting for them to mail it to me or do I get it upon successful completion of the course.



Where are you taking this course? which part of PA?

After completion of the test you are notified by mail. pass or fail they mail you the info. or they did, but I doubt things have changed that much.



trevor1189 said:


> Also, since this is a fast paced course and seeing the course outline, is there anything that you think I should do additional education on (yes I am planning on getting my Paramedic, but I mean immediately)? The anatomy and stuff I am pretty good on from High School Advanced Bio and I also have had Bio and Chem in college.



Not really sure what to tell you brush up on. you can go over your 1st responder book again. You won't need the Chem. any bio you know is always helpful.



Linuss said:


> No clinicals?



I got started in PA. I got my 1st responder and my Basic in Allentown. If I remember correctly, my clinicals consisted of 12 or 24 hrs of ride time. that was it. But was a normal Basic class, not this Basic Camp thingy.


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## Tincanfireman (Jun 11, 2009)

trevor1189 said:


> Here is the class description:
> 
> ~snip~
> 
> Also, since this is a fast paced course and seeing the course outline, is there anything that you think I should do additional education on (yes I am planning on getting my Paramedic, but I mean immediately)?


 
Dude, that's a lot of stuff; don't worry about what else you need until you get this monster behind you...


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## DV_EMT (Jun 11, 2009)

wayyy tooo shorttt.....

crash courses teach you nothing!!!! just how to cram


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## MGary (Jun 11, 2009)

If the test is NREMT you find out online, usu. same day.

Learn the basics by heart. Know vital signs. Know CPR like none other. (ex. 2 professional rescuer CPR on a child = 15:2)

Don't worry about ANY ALS skills. Yes, they're fun to know. No, they won't help you on the test. Worry about Basic, and Basic only.

Study the ins and outs of things like OB and Medicals (SOB, Poisonings, etc) study these well. 

DO NOT worry about acronyms or abbreviations. At least for me, they were not on the test. The only acronym even mentioned was AVPU and even then they didn't want the breakdown of what it stood for, they just wanted to know what it was used for (assessment of responsiveness of unconscious patient)

Know the order of things. If you come up on an OB, what do you do first? (By the book) Then what? And? Then? Finally? Get the picture?

Good luck. I wish my Basic was this condensed. My CNA is 3 months to 3 weeks kinda like this, but my EMT was 4 looong months.


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## Ridryder911 (Jun 12, 2009)

MGary said:


> Good luck. I wish my Basic was this condensed. My CNA is 3 months to 3 weeks kinda like this, but my EMT was 4 looong months.



Does anyone else see a problem with this? Why would one want to have a "condensed" course which would implicate and promote poor retention, being taught half arse, not being allowed to develop, practice and master skills to proficiently. Looking at your schedule, only represents your "camp" sucks. Tell me how much practice time or patient assessments you performed or scenario simulations? How many vital signs did you take before you where out of the class. Yeah, it looks like a great first aid class. 

Four months too long? Two weeks long enough? Geez.. and they wonder what is wrong with our profession? 

R/r 911


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## Tincanfireman (Jun 12, 2009)

Nodding my head and biting my tongue, all at the same time...


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## TransportJockey (Jun 12, 2009)

This thread is a perfect example of why fast food makes more money than EMS


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## rescuepoppy (Jun 12, 2009)

Wow 18 long hard days. This course should turn out some great EMTs. Need to use this as the new national training standard.


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## djmedic913 (Jun 12, 2009)

rescuepoppy said:


> Wow 18 long hard days. This course should turn out some great EMTs. Need to use this as the new national training standard.



oooh, the sarcasm...it is dripping all over the place...you better clean up your mess...


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## rescuepoppy (Jun 12, 2009)

Not really sarcasm. Just a jab at the thought of taking something that is simple to begin with and trying to simplify it even more. This is in my opinion one reason this field is having trouble moving forward.


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## VentMedic (Jun 12, 2009)

rescuepoppy said:


> Wow 18 long hard days. This course should turn out some great EMTs. Need to use this as the new national training standard.


 
I only count 14 days with the others being just testing.

But, for many places, this has been a "standard" with the option to continue to the 3 month Paramedic class.


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## rescuepoppy (Jun 12, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> I only count 14 days with the others being just testing.
> 
> But, for many places, this has been a "standard" with the option to continue to the 3 month Paramedic class.



  My bad counted wrong.


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## djmedic913 (Jun 12, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> I only count 14 days with the others being just testing.
> 
> But, for many places, this has been a "standard" with the option to continue to the 3 month Paramedic class.



3 month Paramedic class? 
are you serious, someone can become a medic in only 3 months? this is a scary thought? 

is this for real?


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## Sasha (Jun 12, 2009)

djmedic913 said:


> oooh, the sarcasm...it is dripping all over the place...you better clean up your mess...



So I take it you're in support of a ridiculous program like this?


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## djmedic913 (Jun 12, 2009)

Sasha said:


> So I take it you're in support of a ridiculous program like this?



um...NO...I was merely commenting on his response that seemed to overly saturated with sarcasm...I was commenting strictly on sarcasm and not what he said...

I don't like it any more than anyone else here...I am sure that if the camp had 20 ppl, we might see 1 or 2 decent basics come from this class, which 2:20-only 10%, but the regular class has a much better turn out.

this camp thing is gonna happen, and I am at least glad this kid wants to succeed, will he, I don't know. for him, since he is going this this camp, he will need to do extra work after the camp for him to retain and improve what he gets thrown at him at camp...


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## Sasha (Jun 12, 2009)

Personally I think if one wants to succeed, they'd take the time to do it right. In education, speed is not the name of the game.


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## Ridryder911 (Jun 12, 2009)

jtpaintball70 said:


> This thread is a perfect example of why fast food makes more money than EMS



This is also why those of the fast food are more trained and educated within their profession. How embarassing and demeaning to the EMS profession. 

New Title:  Drive Thru Medics....


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## rmellish (Jun 12, 2009)

djmedic913 said:


> 3 month Paramedic class?
> are you serious, someone can become a medic in only 3 months? this is a scary thought?
> 
> is this for real?



It's possible in Indiana. http://www.emtinc.net/emsclasses.htm#Paramedic_EMS


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## HotelCo (Jun 12, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> But, for many places, this has been a "standard" with the option to continue to the 3 month Paramedic class.



A 3 month medic class. Wow. We wonder why many within health care don't respect us? It's because of places like this.


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## Rob123 (Jun 12, 2009)

There is nothing wrong with your class.
The problem is that state's minimum training requirement is inadequate.

This topic has been discussed over and over again.
120+ hours is only enough to pass the state/national test.

I agree that a certain policy that my Volunteer Corps enforces.
We have two levels of EMTs:
* Crew Chiefs* and *Attendants*

An Attendant is not allowed to go on a call without a Crew Chief.
Promotion to Crew Chief is difficult as you need to prove your skills to a Crew Chief designated as a Preceptor.

Essentially, all new EMT have to prove themselves for almost a year before "promotion."
An experienced (911 Responder) EMT can typically do it faster.

Just my 2 cents


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## Ridryder911 (Jun 12, 2009)

Rob123 said:


> There is nothing wrong with your class.
> The problem is that state's minimum training requirement is inadequate.
> 
> This topic has been discussed over and over again.
> ...



How do you know there is nothing wrong with his/her class? Most education areas are not taught based upon clock hours. It is not the number of hours I am concerned about it; it is the methodology it is delivered. 

Why would anyone assume and even want to take the "easy road" cracker jack type of course? Seriously, if one does not have any more concern about their profession or even better the patients best behalf than this? 

Fortunately, the EMT does not have much medical responsibility or authority more than a first aider.... and this is the exact reason why! 
How much credibility, can one actually place in a two week course? This is not an intense course where the students has previous medical license, degrees or experience to build upon. Rather this is the foundation. Again, if you did not have practice labs with repetitious training and evaluations, along with didactic review and appropriate required clinical training, your program was bad. Period. 

I am amazed at the attitude and ignorance of most of those that want to be EMT's. I would think that one would have the fortitude to be the best provider and gain the most education and knowledge before entering the workforce. In other words taking their profession seriously. 

Don't blame it on the curriculum, but do blame it on the states that does allow shake & bake programs and those that attend them. 

R/r 911


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## Shishkabob (Jun 12, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> I am amazed at the attitude and ignorance of *most* of those that want to be EMT's.



Gah...................


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## Rob123 (Jun 12, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> Don't blame it on the curriculum, but do blame it on the states that does allow shake & bake programs and those that attend them.



Ridryder911,
I agree with you 100% but I did not express myself correctly.


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## terrible one (Jun 12, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> Don't blame it on the curriculum, but do blame it on the states that does allow shake & bake programs and those that attend them.
> 
> R/r 911



agreed. both medic and EMT courses need to re-developed, no crash courses accepted.


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## Ridryder911 (Jun 12, 2009)

I don't always blame the individual. Alike consumers, they really don't know what is good and what is a scam, unless they study and investigate the programs thoroughly. I do hope someone that is attempting to make a career change or enter a profession would do so though. 

I do blame us though. I am going to attempt to see the sub-committee of the National Association of EMS Educators (NAEMSE) can make a formal recommendation of focusing upon states that allows shake & bake programs to cease. Maybe enough pressure can be produced that NREMT will not allow those to sit in for their test as well. Yes, that would only focus on those states that require such, but to have to say that your course will only be limited to this state is many times a deal breaker. 

Many read these forums that are considering entering the profession. We need to emphasize the scam of those institutions that continue to perform these type of courses. Comprehension of all the material (what little there is) is essential. There is *not* one piece of information contained within it, that is not of use for the EMT. Hence, the reason so many feel that their course was too short... 

R/r 911


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## SanDiegoEmt7 (Jun 12, 2009)

I bet it takes less than 19 days to forget most of it.


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## djmedic913 (Jun 12, 2009)

rmellish said:


> It's possible in Indiana. http://www.emtinc.net/emsclasses.htm#Paramedic_EMS



OMG....this is insane...I thought my course was intense...mine lasted a lot longer than 3 months...what about clinicals with accelerated program.

When my medic class finished we all felt burnt out...After this 3 month thing their brains should be goo with almost no retention..

my brain hurts just thinking about this class. this class will never produce a good medic. I think it will produce a cook book medic and they will follow their protocols to the letter coz they can't think outside the box because they don't anything outside the box.


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## Shishkabob (Jun 12, 2009)

Apparently your medic class didn't require an English prerequisite.


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## TransportJockey (Jun 12, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> I don't always blame the individual. Alike consumers, they really don't know what is good and what is a scam, unless they study and investigate the programs thoroughly. I do hope someone that is attempting to make a career change or enter a profession would do so though.
> 
> I do blame us though. I am going to attempt to see the sub-committee of the National Association of EMS Educators (NAEMSE) can make a formal recommendation of focusing upon states that allows shake & bake programs to cease. Maybe enough pressure can be produced that NREMT will not allow those to sit in for their test as well. Yes, that would only focus on those states that require such, but to have to say that your course will only be limited to this state is many times a deal breaker.
> 
> ...



I am all for NR not accepting them to sit for testing. What all states accept those kind of programs though? And how would we find out? I really want to get involved in legislative efforts in EMS once I'm out of medic school and on the street... but still have no idea how to do that


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## djmedic913 (Jun 12, 2009)

Linuss said:


> Apparently your medic class didn't require an English prerequisite.



nope...being able to read or write english is not a requirement for Paramedic :wacko:


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## JonTullos (Jun 13, 2009)

rmellish said:


> It's possible in Indiana. http://www.emtinc.net/emsclasses.htm#Paramedic_EMS



Oh... my... goodness.


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## whatw14578 (Jun 13, 2009)

i went to EMT inc in Indiana for my basic class Most of the 34 people where either pr PA students or Pre Med students. A few where for those contract companies that do work overseas and military personal. I was a good program since everyone had already taken A&P 1 and 2, college math and Microbiology. It was fun but long, class from 7a-7p and clinicals at night. The 4 month paramedic program they have is so unreal. No time for sleep. Class during daylight and clinicals at night. Good overall though they make sure you understand the book material as well as the skills. They will take the extra time to do a lot of one on one.


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## rmellish (Jun 13, 2009)

whatw14578 said:


> i went to EMT inc in Indiana for my basic class Most of the 34 people where either pr PA students or Pre Med students. A few where for those contract companies that do work overseas and military personal. I was a good program since everyone had already taken A&P 1 and 2, college math and Microbiology. It was fun but long, class from 7a-7p and clinicals at night. The 4 month paramedic program they have is so unreal. No time for sleep. Class during daylight and clinicals at night. Good overall though they make sure you understand the book material as well as the skills. They will take the extra time to do a lot of one on one.



And now you're working somewhere with your cert? How well were you prepared?


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## Ridryder911 (Jun 13, 2009)

whatw14578 said:


> i went to EMT inc in Indiana for my basic class Most of the 34 people where either pr PA students or Pre Med students. A few where for those contract companies that do work overseas and military personal. I was a good program since everyone had already taken A&P 1 and 2, college math and Microbiology. It was fun but long, class from 7a-7p and clinicals at night. The 4 month paramedic program they have is so unreal. No time for sleep. Class during daylight and clinicals at night. Good overall though they make sure you understand the book material as well as the skills. They will take the extra time to do a lot of one on one.



Good in comparison to what? Really, I don't care if they were all PhD.'s retention and practice is essential. Cramming is only memorizing enough to get by and we know what that leads to. Would these same individuals endorse an abbreviated PA or med school? Yeah, probably not. 

Many of the reasons many take cook book classes is to be able to get a fast buck. I wonder how many ECG's were practiced and orchestrating a call, leadership, and just good lab time to evaluate the skills?


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## whatw14578 (Jun 13, 2009)

Good compared to some of the 2 month programs in Florida one 8 hour class a week where the training I herd was so so. Not I did not get paid for that first year of EMS service, I did volunteer shifts when the paid emts needed time off. And  most of the medics from that 4 month program that I saw are now overseas on their tour of duty still. I thought I was prepared well for my job. The paramedic did all the ALS stuff and let me do most the BLS after the 4 weeks of OJT and skills assessment. It really helped prepare me for medic school and gave me great resources for the Medic class, no regrets on my end for the choice of EMT basic in Indiana.


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## MGary (Jun 13, 2009)

Haha. This is getting interesting. Let me clarify my earlier comments.

I did NOT say that I wanted my 4 month Basic course condensed to two weeks. I did say that I want it condensed from the 4 months. 

In my 4 month Basic class, we met ONCE A WEEK. For 3 freakin' hours. 

Need to learn everything to do with trauma and bandaging? 3 hours of lecture on it, come back saturday and play with the 02 and bandages for a couple of hours. 

I would want more than 3 hours devoted to trauma. I personally would rather have a month of 6-8 hour days with the first half being lecture and the second half actually applying those skills in mock scenarios and such. Then, go use it in real life in ambulance ride alongs (which I used the hell out of since I didn't feel confident after our little 3 hour lecture sessions)

As for my CNA class, yeah, I love how it's 3 weeks. Taking a certified EMT and teaching him to roll a patient onto a bedpan or put them in their wheelchair should not take longer than this.


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## whatw14578 (Jun 13, 2009)

MGary said:


> Haha. This is getting interesting. Let me clarify my earlier comments.
> 
> I did NOT say that I wanted my 4 month Basic course condensed to two weeks. I did say that I want it condensed from the 4 months.
> 
> ...



I so agree with this. i also took CNA in high school and did it for two years. not much is needed to do that job. and yet some schools it out to 6 months monday -friday?


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## Shishkabob (Jun 13, 2009)

MGary said:


> I did NOT say that I wanted my 4 month Basic course condensed to two weeks. I did say that I want it condensed from the 4 months.
> 
> In my 4 month Basic class, we met ONCE A WEEK. For 3 freakin' hours.



That's it?  That equates to like... 48 hours.  For EMT?


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## DHarris52 (Jun 13, 2009)

You guys are looking at this entirely the wrong way. 

It takes 120 hours to obtain your EMT certification. 120 hours is 120 hours whether it is completed in 6 months or 2 weeks. Personally, it took me 6 months. If someone can successfully do it in 2 weeks, more power to them. Their card will be just as valid as anyone elses.

Besides, the class isn't even the half of it. Your true EMT skills are acquired only by riding a rig and gaining real life hands-on experience. 

Hopefully, he will have a good experienced mentor on his squad that will take him under their wing.


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## HotelCo (Jun 14, 2009)

DHarris52 said:


> Their card will be just as valid as anyone elses.



And having a card automatically means that you're a competent EMT?


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## DHarris52 (Jun 14, 2009)

HotelCo said:


> And having a card automatically means that you're a competent EMT?



...as far as the state/NR is concerned.


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## HotelCo (Jun 14, 2009)

DHarris52 said:


> ...as far as the state/NR is concerned.


Some people are great test-takers, they can sit down for the NR and pass. That DOES NOT mean that they are competent enough to treat a patient.


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## VentMedic (Jun 14, 2009)

DHarris52 said:


> You guys are looking at this entirely the wrong way.
> 
> It takes 120 hours to obtain your EMT certification. 120 hours is 120 hours whether it is completed in 6 months or 2 weeks. Personally, it took me 6 months. If someone can successfully do it in 2 weeks, more power to them. Their card will be just as valid as anyone elses.
> 
> ...


 
I do agree that 120 hours is not much and for some it doesn't matter how long it takes to get it. It is also deceiving to say an EMT program is 9 months long when it is only 3 hours a week.

Since there are no prerequisites to the EMT program, it is questionable as to how well some will understand the material without extra study time. 

The clinical and ride time is also often too short to be of much use to prepare the EMT student for the real world. Ride time could be a hit or a total miss since many programs do not have a required number of patient contacts. The entire 10 hours could be done in front of a TV or sleeping. There is also very little guarantee that the EMT will have a good mentor or will make use of the time they do spend with each patient especially since many will be BLS IFT. The mentality for IFT is one that if it doesn't bleed or is a "trauma" there is little need to assess any further than the patient information sheet for billing info and a diagnosis. There may also be little chance in some areas that EMTs will get the opportunity to do 911 calls. 

However, these 2 week crash courses are an excellent way for those in other medical professions to get an EMT card to meet the requirements for some out of hospital transport job description or before challenging the Paramedic exam.


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## Shishkabob (Jun 14, 2009)

Basics are invaluable for what they do.


Having said that, the education is WOEFULLY inadequate.  

Not necessarily a fault of the EMT, but of the NREMT, NHTSA, and others that DO have control over that.


In my world, clinicals will be a 1:1 ratio with diadetic hours, at mininum, for basic.  I nearly doubled my EMT class just by the amount of hours I chose to do extra.   Then again, you get out what you put in, and those who don't work to do extra get the grade they get.


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## DHarris52 (Jun 14, 2009)

HotelCo said:


> Some people are great test-takers, they can sit down for the NR and pass. That DOES NOT mean that they are competent enough to treat a patient.



Your card is a written endorsement that your skills are sufficient enough to practice as an EMT. 

Most EMT classes lose about 50% of the students along the course of the class. Do a few dingbats slip through the cracks? Sure, there's some bad apples, as with anything else in the world. But for the most part, the class itself does a pretty good job of  "natural selection". 

So, what is your definition of competent and what credentials do you posess in order to deem someone competent? I'm not trying to break balls, but do you see where this becomes a huge gray area?

The accelerated 2 week program isn't for everyone. But that doesn't mean that the graduates of that program should be looked down upon by fellow EMTs. 

The fact _still_ remains that their card will be as good as yours or mine - right, wrong, or indifferent.


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## HotelCo (Jun 14, 2009)

DHarris52 said:


> Your card is a written endorsement that your skills are sufficient enough to practice as an EMT.



That card just means that you passed some tests. I'm great at taking tests. I once forgot to read a chapter for medic class, went to class and took the quiz on it, got an 85%. On something I NEVER READ. (I did go back and read it a few times after, don't worry) The point I'm trying to make is that a card just means you passed a test, it says nothing about your competence as an EMT.


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## EMTinNEPA (Jun 14, 2009)

A two week course doesn't allow for the study time and practice time in between classes that, for instance, a six month course would provide.

As for what's missing from current EMT courses that should be included, how about...
- EVOC
- ACLS for EMT-Bs (or some sort of paramedic assistant training)
- A&P
- Pharmacology
- Exercises to promote Critical Thinking
- MICU and hospital clinicals
- Communications training (how to communicate with doctors, nurses, other public safety professionals, patients, patient's families)
- What to do on DOAs
- Scenarios besides MVAs, fall victims, chest pain, SOB, CVA, poisoning, abdominal pain, allergic reaction, choking, and cardiac arrest

To name just a few in my sleep deprived state of mind... these are all things that, in hindsight, would have served me greatly if they had been a part of my EMT course.  EMTs should walk out of that course ready to be paired up with a paramedic on a Mobile Intensive Care Unit.


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## MGary (Jun 14, 2009)

Linuss said:


> That's it?  That equates to like... 48 hours.  For EMT?



Yeah. Jan 22- May 17, Tuesday nights, 1800-2130. 

Total of I think 8 Saturday "Labs" (I'll check the schedule later to make sure, It's literally 0-dark-hundred right now), 8 hours each. 

I know it met the 120 hours minumum, but just barely. If we missed a single class or lab we were out. 

1 10 hour mandatory hospital rotation (The unit was not dispatched ONCE on my entire 10 hour shift)

And that's it. Ride-Alongs were completely optional. 

This is why I did Ride-Alongs every chance I got. They didn't give us our provisional licenses until half-way through the course, but after that I was on every weekend and every chance I had. I did a total of somewhere in the 15-20 range of ride-alongs in a two-month period. Some 8 hour shifts, some 12 hour shifts, some around 16 hours. 8 was my shortest.

I had 2 Medics, two Intermediate/EMS RNs (Flight Nurses) and about 6 Intermediates show me the ropes and their little tricks on these numerous ride-alongs. They showed me everything from spiking IV bags to hooking up a 5 lead EKG so that on major calls they could worry about doing the advanced stuff (actual needle part of IVs, Intubation, meds) and know that the basic things were being taken care of. 

In all honesty, I have mixed feelings on my Basic course. Did it teach me everything I needed to know for the field? Not even close. What it did do is give me a firm foundation upon which I could learn more from numerous teachers and not get stuck in the habits of a single instructor.


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## daedalus (Jun 14, 2009)

If anyone (a mentor, a teacher, a friend, family) ever tells you to take a two week EMT course, they are belittling you and wronging you. If someone tells you that being an EMT is a professional career move, they are wronging you. If you think hat being an EMT is really much of an accomplishment, you are wronging yourself. 

Think about it. Every time anyone argues that EMTs are competent to provide patient care, that EMT is a career, or that being an EMT is equivalent to a healthcare professional, they are calling themselves dummies.

Why would anyone say that a 120 hour course is all that you can accomplish? Is that all you can be? A 120 hour course that you must constantly defend?

Do not wrong yourself.


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## Ridryder911 (Jun 14, 2009)

DHarris52 said:


> Your card is a written endorsement that your skills are sufficient enough to practice as an EMT.
> 
> Most EMT classes lose about 50% of the students along the course of the class. Do a few dingbats slip through the cracks? Sure, there's some bad apples, as with anything else in the world. But for the most part, the class itself does a pretty good job of  "natural selection".
> 
> ...



Spoken just like someone that does not understand education or competency. 

Sorry, it is NOT the hours as much as it is the delivery, the methodology that allows the student to retain and to exercise to become proficient *before* they are allowed on the streets. Working on a REAL patient is not the time to make mistakes and learn. It should be done while in a classroom and clinical setting with preceptor observation monitoring them. 

The NREMT *only * describes that when one passes that they have met the *minimal* standard allowed per written and practical test. By far, they will admit the current Basic is a far cry from what is needed. Let's not play the old...."Well, they passed the same test" B.S. Sure, the main emphasis was placed upon how to do such. 

Let me ask you this. Would you rather have a Surgeon that spent 4 years Medical School and 7 years in surgical residency operate on your child or one that spent 4 1/2; but passed the same boards and license test.... all the same.... right? 

Too extreme? How much do you really think adult learners absorb by cramming? Is it really worth maybe even missing just one part? 

How many times, did those students actually perform assessments, practice with traction splints (all various types), run scenarios developing critical thinking skills and leadership? You want them to learn this on you? 

Sorry, Cracker Jack programs produces Cracker Jack medics. Let's quit making excuses for laziness and the lack of ability to do something right. One of my goals is to see if we can start enforcing ways to shut these mills down. 

R/r 911


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## DHarris52 (Jun 14, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> Spoken just like someone that does not understand education or competency.
> 
> Sorry, it is NOT the hours as much as it is the delivery, the methodology that allows the student to retain and to exercise to become proficient *before* they are allowed on the streets. Working on a REAL patient is not the time to make mistakes and learn. It should be done while in a classroom and clinical setting with preceptor observation monitoring them.
> 
> The NREMT *only * describes that when one passes that they have met the *minimal* standard allowed per written and practical test. By far, they will admit the current Basic is a far cry from what is needed. Let's not play the old...."Well, they passed the same test" B.S. Sure, the main emphasis was placed upon how to do such.



I'll ask again. How do you define competent? Who can deem someone competent and what credentials must they posess in order to do so? 



Ridryder911 said:


> Let me ask you this. Would you rather have a Surgeon that spent 4 years Medical School and 7 years in surgical residency operate on your child or one that spent 4 1/2; but passed the same boards and license test.... all the same.... right?



Apples to oranges.



Ridryder911 said:


> Too extreme? How much do you really think adult learners absorb by cramming? Is it really worth maybe even missing just one part?



Just because you and I can't do it doesn't mean everyone else can't. 



Ridryder911 said:


> How many times, did those students actually perform assessments, practice with traction splints (all various types), run scenarios developing critical thinking skills and leadership? You want them to learn this on you?
> 
> Sorry, Cracker Jack programs produces Cracker Jack medics. Let's quit making excuses for laziness and the lack of ability to do something right. One of my goals is to see if we can start enforcing ways to shut these mills down.
> 
> R/r 911



120 hours is 120 hours whether we're talking about a 6 month class or a 2 week class. 

You are vastly overestimating the amount of out-of-classroom studying that students actually do over the course of the 6 month class. For the most part (at least in my neck of the woods), people are taking the EMT class as vollys and it is being completed simultaneously with college, work, volunteer time etc etc. There are only so many hours in a day.


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## VentMedic (Jun 14, 2009)

daedalus said:


> If anyone (a mentor, a teacher, a friend, family) ever tells you to take a two week EMT course, they are belittling you and wronging you. If someone tells you that being an EMT is a professional career move, they are wronging you. If you think hat being an EMT is really much of an accomplishment, you are wronging yourself.


 
Yet again and again on the EMS forums some are given advice to do the Excelsior program for nursing which bypasses over 1200 hours of clinicals.  The same goes for some of the less than adequate bridge programs.  Some in EMS has come to expect shortcuts.    Most of this could be because education is not stressed and that includes the requirements of the instructors teaching EMS classes.  The emphasis has been on training.   Thus, few have anything to compare what a well structured program that has a good blend of education to go with the training can offer a student.  They also have very few educated educators leading the classes to get a good impression of the importance of education.  Instead, the instructor who has the coolest stories to tell to fill up the time he/she doesn't know how to explain basic A&P, which is perceived as the boring nonessential stuff,  gets nominated as the best instructor.


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## cperschke (Jun 14, 2009)

Well, I have some feedback on this issue as well.  I'm currently shopping around for a good EMT-B class, what I'm finding is that ALL of them are only 120 hours.  Even those offered at the college.  The only difference I'm finding is how far they space those hours out.  There's a private school near me that does it every other weekend for 18 hours per week, and a community college that does it twice a week for 7 hours per week.

I fail to see any significant advantage to spacing out the class times longer than neccessary.  Even if the issue becomes about study time can't someone just buy the book early and start reading? take A&P, Medical Term, etc..

Maybe I'm missing something. However it seems that if someone is capable of taking a full time college load and succeding( multiple classes a day for 5 days a week) then they could do the same with one class 5 days a week.


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## VentMedic (Jun 14, 2009)

cperschke said:


> Maybe I'm missing something. However it seems that if someone is capable of taking a full time college load and succeding( multiple classes a day for 5 days a week) then they could do the same with one class 5 days a week.


 
Good thought.

However, when a student takes a short term college class that does run 5 days a week and usually for only 3 - 4 hours per day, they are advised NOT to take a full semester load in terms of credit hours.  *Each* credit hour taken may require 1 - 3 hours of outside study time and preparation for the next class.   The "hours of training" for tech school programs do not always address this since the emphasis is on training or skills.   This is another reason why EMS should get away from the trade school concept and model their programs toward an education model.


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## djmedic913 (Jun 14, 2009)

EMTinNEPA said:


> - ACLS for EMT-Bs (or some sort of paramedic assistant training).



This is not a requirement or even the responsibility of Basic. Since the basic can not preform any of these skills, or even true training on ALS skills. If a Basic spikes the wrong bag or an expired bag, it is not the responsibility of that Basic. An I/P needs to verify everything they do.  When I was a Basic, I chose to learn ALS assist because it made me feel a bit more useful, instead of sitting in the driver's seat and waiting for the ok to go.




Ridryder911 said:


> Spoken just like someone that does not understand education or competency.
> 
> Sorry, it is NOT the hours as much as it is the delivery, the methodology that allows the student to retain and to exercise to become proficient *before* they are allowed on the streets. Working on a REAL patient is not the time to make mistakes and learn. It should be done while in a classroom and clinical setting with preceptor observation monitoring them.
> 
> ...


Your comparison about a surgeon with an EMT is not a valid comparison. I agree a 2 week course is not geared properly for retention. But you compared a Surgeon with 4 years education and residency with a Surgeon who had 4 1/2 yrs education only....the difference was the residency.
As you said your card says you have the minimum knowledge required by the state/NR to practice at your level.  But residency is necessary. This is where responsibility falls upon the employer of the new EMT-B/I/P to assign them an FTO and encourage them. this is where we all take book knowledge we learned and apply and gain experience. Under supervision as is with the MD in residency. NO...let me repeat NO person new to a level should be allowed to tech alone after immediately getting their new level card. They need supervision and someone to evaluate whether they are merely a good test taker or someone who can truly apply what they have learned.


As someone said...Basics are quite important.


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## VentMedic (Jun 14, 2009)

djmedic913 said:


> As someone said...Basics are quite important.


 
An EMT-B is important just as CNAs are important.  However, 120 hours of training in a few skills with a very limited knowledge base, one should not assume the EMT-B is prepared to fully assess or evaluate a patient.  Thus, part of their training should be knowing their limitations.  Some still confuse knowing how to do a couple of "skills" that a Paramedic might do, like spiking an IV bag or putting together a laryngoscope, makes them "ALS".


----------



## daedalus (Jun 14, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Yet again and again on the EMS forums some are given advice to do the Excelsior program for nursing which bypasses over 1200 hours of clinicals.  The same goes for some of the less than adequate bridge programs.  Some in EMS has come to expect shortcuts.    Most of this could be because education is not stressed and that includes the requirements of the instructors teaching EMS classes.  The emphasis has been on training.   Thus, few have anything to compare what a well structured program that has a good blend of education to go with the training can offer a student.  They also have very few educated educators leading the classes to get a good impression of the importance of education.  Instead, the instructor who has the coolest stories to tell to fill up the time he/she doesn't know how to explain basic A&P, which is perceived as the boring nonessential stuff,  gets nominated as the best instructor.


Yes. That is why there are Medic to MD threads, because once in EMS, shortcuts are expected. I completely agree.


----------



## daedalus (Jun 14, 2009)

djmedic913 said:


> This is not a requirement or even the responsibility of Basic. Since the basic can not preform any of these skills, or even true training on ALS skills. If a Basic spikes the wrong bag or an expired bag, it is not the responsibility of that Basic. An I/P needs to verify everything they do.  When I was a Basic, I chose to learn ALS assist because it made me feel a bit more useful, instead of sitting in the driver's seat and waiting for the ok to go.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I do actually think the basic/surgeon comparison stands. Many times, EMTs are alone with patients who may be potentially sick, and are the highest "medical provider" in the BLS rig. While CNAs are task oriented and always only doing very simple things under the nursing model (supervised by LVNs and RNs), the EMT may or may not be supervised and is expected to be able to care for any patient at his level. Their education is woefully inadequate for this. Many times, CNAs can even be more educated than EMTs.


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## Ridryder911 (Jun 14, 2009)

DHarris52 said:


> .
> 
> 120 hours is 120 hours whether we're talking about a 6 month class or a 2 week class.
> 
> You are vastly overestimating the amount of out-of-classroom studying that students actually do over the course of the 6 month class. For the most part (at least in my neck of the woods), people are taking the EMT class as vollys and it is being completed simultaneously with college, work, volunteer time etc etc. There are only so many hours in a day.



Again, you fail to recognize adult learners and adult education. Sorry, as you even described there is just so many hours in a day. So which portion do you prefer to have them forget?  You are informing me that one is reading 3-5 chapters daily is retaining better or the same as one that has a week to absorb it and then practice each segment in a lab over a week? 

Just how many times do these accelerated students get to perform each type of assessment techniques, clinical skills? How many scenarios are placed to make the student think or do they even get a chance to perform under direction and review? Do they even get to run scenarios outdoors or in lab settings to give them unique perspectives or is that the employers responsibility to get poorly prepared medics? 

What happens if a few students "doesn't get it"? Is there a time for them to practice in between if so.. how if it is daily class? 

How in detail is the didactic material given? Is there any other discussion or hand outs than the usual NHTSA or textbook material? 

Sorry, its not the place of the employers or FTO's to train them to be able to provide care at their level. They are supposed to be knowledgeable to sustain upon their own. It is FTO's job is make sure they have a working knowledge of the companies policies and standards of care, to fine tune and to give additional knowledge, not teach them upon how to be an EMT. That is what the course and clinicals are for. 

This is why, I am seeing more and more applicants not suited for the position. We test and give applicants critical thinking problems, one has to be able to make logical and sound decisions in a short period of time. As well, be very familiar on how to manage and perform at their level without supervision. Sorry, I am not going to hire you just to teach you to be a Basic EMT or in other words how to do your job. Give additional education and reinforce yes. . Remember, there are a lot of EMT's that can perform and where will that place you? 

So let's clarify. Two weeks is enough to retain all that is within the course and then we agree that it is not enough. Then we agree that they should not be the primary care provider and driving is the main emphasis for the EMT level, although we do not require EVO within the course.... yeah, the system is just fine! 

Remember, when one takes a short cut; it will be paid for later. Hopefully it will not be the patient. 

R/r 911


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## djmedic913 (Jun 14, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> An EMT-B is important just as CNAs are important.


I completely agree.




VentMedic said:


> However, 120 hours of training in a few skills with a very limited knowledge base, one should not assume the EMT-B is prepared to fully assess or evaluate a patient.  Thus, part of their training should be knowing their limitations.  Some still confuse knowing how to do a couple of "skills" that a Paramedic might do, like spiking an IV bag or putting together a laryngoscope, makes them "ALS".


I agree again. that is why I said new EMT-B/I/P need to do some kind of residency. Something more than just clinical time. when they are done with class, they need to prove they have the ability to work at that level to a qualified preceptor/FTO before they can play at that level unsupervised


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## whatw14578 (Jun 14, 2009)

i know we had that for both volly EMT and as a New PAramedic. and it really helps to have that so many weeks or so many ALS calls.


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## HotelCo (Jun 14, 2009)

DHarris52 said:


> You are vastly overestimating the amount of out-of-classroom studying that students actually do over the course of the 6 month class. For the most part (at least in my neck of the woods), people are taking the EMT class as vollys and it is being completed simultaneously with college, work, volunteer time etc etc. There are only so many hours in a day.



"There are only so many hours in a day." That isn't an acceptable excuse to not study. Cut out some TV, stop hanging around on the internet. You can find time to study.

Just because the students in your EMT class didn't study much outside of the classroom, doesn't mean that every program is the same way.


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## DHarris52 (Jun 14, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> Again, you fail to recognize adult learners and adult education. Sorry, as you even described there is just so many hours in a day. So which portion do you prefer to have them forget?  You are informing me that one is reading 3-5 chapters daily is retaining better or the same as one that has a week to absorb it and then practice each segment in a lab over a week?



Precisely why the accelerated program is not for everyone. 

Everyone learns differently. 



Ridryder911 said:


> Just how many times do these accelerated students get to perform each type of assessment techniques, clinical skills? How many scenarios are placed to make the student think or do they even get a chance to perform under direction and review? Do they even get to run scenarios outdoors or in lab settings to give them unique perspectives or is that the employers responsibility to get poorly prepared medics?



The students in the 2 week class get no less practice time than the students in the 6 months class. Once again, 120 hours is 120 hours no matter how you slice it. 



Ridryder911 said:


> What happens if a few students "doesn't get it"? Is there a time for them to practice in between if so.. how if it is daily class?



Perhaps then those students should reconsider if the accelerated program is for them before continuing. 



Ridryder911 said:


> How in detail is the didactic material given? Is there any other discussion or hand outs than the usual NHTSA or textbook material?



Why would it be any different, material wise, than any other EMT course?



Ridryder911 said:


> Sorry, its not the place of the employers or FTO's to train them to be able to provide care at their level. They are supposed to be knowledgeable to sustain upon their own. It is FTO's job is make sure they have a working knowledge of the companies policies and standards of care, to fine tune and to give additional knowledge, not teach them upon how to be an EMT. That is what the course and clinicals are for.



Sorry, but I don't want _any_ new EMT out in the field on their own. I really could care less whether they took the 2 week course or 6 month course. EMTs who are fresh out of school should always be paired with an experienced "mentor". As I said, EMT school is only the half of it. Call the other half "on-the-job training".


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## DHarris52 (Jun 14, 2009)

HotelCo said:


> "There are only so many hours in a day." That isn't an acceptable excuse to not study. Cut out some TV, stop hanging around on the internet. You can find time to study.
> 
> Just because the students in your EMT class didn't study much outside of the classroom, doesn't mean that every program is the same way.



That is an incredibly ignorant statement. 

Just because _you_ had ample time to study during your class, doesn't mean every other EMT student had the same luxury.


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## HotelCo (Jun 14, 2009)

DHarris52 said:


> That is an incredibly ignorant statement.
> 
> Just because _you_ had ample time to study during your class, doesn't mean every other EMT student had the same luxury.



Are you honestly trying to tell me that you have NO time to study, outside of class? You can always find things to cut out, to make way for study time. You may have to make some sacrifices to do it, but the time is there.


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## djmedic913 (Jun 14, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> What happens if a few students "doesn't get it"?
> 
> Sorry, its not the place of the employers or FTO's to train them to be able to provide care at their level. They are supposed to be knowledgeable to sustain upon their own. It is FTO's job is make sure they have a working knowledge of the companies policies and standards of care, to fine tune and to give additional knowledge, not teach them upon how to be an EMT. That is what the course and clinicals are for.



I agree it is not the job of the FTO to teach the new B/I/P to be just that a B/I/P. But usual the new level needs some guidance and help building some confidence in their new level. You "What happens if a few students "doesn't get it"? ". well, there are some people that no matter hard we try, no matter how much we teach, etc, they will just never get it. Not everyone is cut out for EMS.

I am in agreement that this boot camp is a bad idea, because it does not give the student a chance to let the new info sink in. But how much are you wanting the Basic classes to teach? How much info is too much for the Basic. I take nothing away from basics. where are do we draw line then...or should also basics be taught to the medic level?


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## whatw14578 (Jun 14, 2009)

wow all this over a basic class?


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## TransportJockey (Jun 14, 2009)

HotelCo said:


> "There are only so many hours in a day." That isn't an acceptable excuse to not study. Cut out some TV, stop hanging around on the internet. You can find time to study.
> 
> Just because the students in your EMT class didn't study much outside of the classroom, doesn't mean that every program is the same way.



+1. If I hadn't made time to study for this paramedic program, I would have washed out long ago. If I hear someone tell me that stupid sentance, I will tell them that they failed themselves


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## Luno (Jun 14, 2009)

> Just how many times do these accelerated students get to perform each type of assessment techniques, clinical skills? How many scenarios are placed to make the student think or do they even get a chance to perform under direction and review? Do they even get to run scenarios outdoors or in lab settings to give them unique perspectives or is that the employers responsibility to get poorly prepared medics?


Having FTO'd, in my opinion, all EMTs just out of class are poorly prepared EMTs, whether from 3mo Community College programs, or 2 week "intensive" programs



> What happens if a few students "doesn't get it"? Is there a time for them to practice in between if so.. how if it is daily class?


Unfortunately for the student, it's either you get it or you don't in an intensive, if they can't perform the skill, they get dropped, they don't get the extra days to "try again."



> How in detail is the didactic material given? Is there any other discussion or hand outs than the usual NHTSA or textbook material?


Having gone through both types of courses, there is really no difference, other than a high washout rate of the "intensive" type course.  



> Sorry, its not the place of the employers or FTO's to train them to be able to provide care at their level. They are supposed to be knowledgeable to sustain upon their own. It is FTO's job is make sure they have a working knowledge of the companies policies and standards of care, to fine tune and to give additional knowledge, not teach them upon how to be an EMT. That is what the course and clinicals are for.


I'm going to disagree with you here, the EMT is taught a series of guidelines and rules, the practical application has to be learned in the field.  



> This is why, I am seeing more and more applicants not suited for the position. We test and give applicants critical thinking problems, one has to be able to make logical and sound decisions in a short period of time. As well, be very familiar on how to manage and perform at their level without supervision. Sorry, I am not going to hire you just to teach you to be a Basic EMT or in other words how to do your job. Give additional education and reinforce yes. . Remember, there are a lot of EMT's that can perform and where will that place you?


I have yet to see an EMT just from school who can perform at this level.



> So let's clarify. Two weeks is enough to retain all that is within the course and then we agree that it is not enough. Then we agree that they should not be the primary care provider and driving is the main emphasis for the EMT level, although we do not require EVO within the course.... yeah, the system is just fine!


I agree that the system is broken, however the break isn't in the intensive courses, the break is in the lack of adequate standards and preceptorship for the position.  I think we can both agree that the issue is that 120hrs isn't enough time.



> Remember, when one takes a short cut; it will be paid for later. Hopefully it will not be the patient.
> 
> R/r 911


And this I couldn't agree with more...


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## Shishkabob (Jun 29, 2009)

So, how'd the camp go Trevor?


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## WuLabsWuTecH (Jun 29, 2009)

It can be done well if you work for it.

My program was 5 days a week and 4 weeks long.  If I wasn't sleeping I was ether in class or studying for class.  Literally, I had maybe a couple hours a week to myself.  Took the test and aced it, was out of there in about 20 minutes, I think I had 60 or 70 questions to work through.

I also knew that that wasn't the end of education.  I have been learning still ever since, but the restention is actually pretty good.  Since I worked for a private that did morestly IFT, i lost a lot of the trauma stuff quickly, but the medical stayed with me running on resp. arrests, unresponsives, etc.  Since I started working for a FD, the trauma stuff has quickly come back after just a couple hours of reading chapter outlines and a few sections here and there.  I was very ready for my first shift with the FD a year after I graduated EMS School

It can be done.  Is it the best way?  probably not since most people won't want to spend 9 hours a day in class and 6 more studying, but that's what worked for me so if you want it badly enough, you can do it.


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## trevor1189 (Jun 30, 2009)

Class is going good. It is intense. We have had a few drop out and a bunch that I think won't pass because they don't get it. I think I am doing pretty good and got all positive feedback on my practice practical scenarios yesterday. I have some anxiety about the state tests just because they are tests but I think I will do good. 

One question I had is do we find out if we passed when we take the state tests if we passed or are we supposed to wait for the mail? I am just wondering how long it takes to get my actual certificate. I want to start doing some calls once I get it as a second emt so I can get used to being in the field and charting and all that stuff before I am out there by myself. Wish me luck next week, it can't hurt. ;-)


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## djmedic913 (Jun 30, 2009)

trevor1189 said:


> One question I had is do we find out if we passed when we take the state tests if we passed or are we supposed to wait for the mail? I am just wondering how long it takes to get my actual certificate.



I took my Basic in PA. I did not go to any EMS camp. But after I took my test I needed to wait for the mail. It wasn't too long of a wait.

It may have been mentioned, but I may have missed it...and I'm curious...
1)How old are you?
2)Where in PA is this boot camp?



trevor1189 said:


> I want to start doing some calls once I get it as a second emt so I can get used to being in the field and charting and all that stuff before I am out there by myself. Wish me luck next week, it can't hurt. ;-)



Every Service I have ever been involved with will have you ride as a 3rd rider to start. That is including Emmaus Ambulance in PA where I started. They will keep an eye on you to make sure you don't kill anyone, make sure you have a clue, help you where you need it, and get you ready to be in charge.


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## trevor1189 (Jul 1, 2009)

djmedic913 said:


> I took my Basic in PA. I did not go to any EMS camp. But after I took my test I needed to wait for the mail. It wasn't too long of a wait.
> 
> It may have been mentioned, but I may have missed it...and I'm curious...
> 1)How old are you?
> ...



I am 19 years old and the class is in danville a run thru sehsc.


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## djmedic913 (Jul 1, 2009)

trevor1189 said:


> I am 19 years old and the class is in danville a run thru sehsc.



o...ok...I took my Basic in Allentown at LCCC.


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## Sail195 (Jul 2, 2009)

In MA they don't require clinical time/Ride time but the dept I am going to volly for has been letting me ride im averaging a 12hr shift a week for the last 2 months (I had a month and a half wait between my class ending and my state practical which was last Sunday).... I want to do medic and I have no doubt that I would make it thought the class if I started in the fall ( I already have a BS in Phys ed with a concentration in coaching so have had a ton of Athletic training classes and Physiology of exerciser ect...) but I feel that I will be doing an injustice too myself.... From all I can see so far is that experience is everything in this field and we have this medic where I volly that went emt right to medic didn't work a day in the field till she had her medic and no one can stand her because she is very arrogant and thinks she knows it all and talks down to all the basics and intermediates that have been working in the feild for 10-15 + years its pretty annoying 

Any way I plan on waiting at least a year, which was a hard decsion for me because i am very impatient and just want to get it done now! I mean  i just did 4 and 1/2 years of college, 4 months of basic school whats another year lol


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## EMTinNEPA (Jul 2, 2009)

trevor1189 said:


> I am 19 years old and the class is in danville a run thru sehsc.



Hey, not too far from my neck of the woods (Berwick-Bloomsburg micropolitan area).


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## VentMedic (Jul 2, 2009)

Sail195 said:


> In MA they don't require clinical time/Ride time but the dept I am going to volly for has been letting me ride im *averaging a 12hr shift a week* for the last 2 months (I had a month and a half wait between my class ending and my state practical which was last Sunday).... I want to do medic and I have no doubt that I would make it thought the class if I started in the fall ( I already have a BS in Phys ed with a concentration in coaching so have had a ton of Athletic training classes and Physiology of exerciser ect...) but I feel that I will be doing an injustice too myself.... From all I can see so far is that experience is everything in this field and we have this medic where I *volly that went emt right to medic didn't work a day in the field till she had her medic* and no one can stand her because she is very arrogant and thinks she knows it all and talks down to all the basics and intermediates that have been working in the feild for 10-15 + years its pretty annoying
> 
> Any way I plan on waiting at least a year, which was a hard decsion for me because i am very impatient and just want to get it done now! I mean i just did 4 and 1/2 years of college, 4 months of basic school whats another year lol


 
How many patients are you actually coming into contact with as a volly doing one 12 hour shift per week? 

Is the Paramedic a paid employee?

And what does the Paramedic's personality as a know it all have to do with whether you take the Paramedic class now or later?

If one has remained as an EMT-B for 15+ years, maybe they do need a reality check occasionally.

Why exactly are you want to be a Paramedic? Are you going to have enough time aside from your real job to work or volunteer as one?


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## Sail195 (Jul 2, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> How many patients are you actually coming into contact with as a volly doing one 12 hour shift per week?
> 
> Is the Paramedic a paid employee?
> 
> ...




Don't plan on stying on my current job once I have my medic, Its just i cant afford the pay cut to a basic right now so its gona be volly for a bit, I would say i have been averaging 4 to 5 calls a shift, have worked everything from a couple of codes to so pretty bad MVA's and everything in between by no means seasoned but I have had good luck with getting calls (or bad luck depending how you look at it) ..... Fair enough about the medics personality, I guess I was more using that as an example of what i don't want to happen and less of a reason not to go right into medic... as far as the EMT-B, the person i was thinking of with 15 years on was an I and I do know a few b's with 10 plus years and for personal reasons just don't want or have the desire to go further.... all the medics here are paid and depending the time of day and amount of shifts that week you are sched I's and B's can get paid too.  

By no means meant to ruffle any feathers just stating my opinion


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## Afflixion (Jul 2, 2009)

Sail195 said:


> Don't plan on stying on my current job once I have my medic, Its just i cant afford the pay cut to a basic right now so its gona be volly for a bit, I would say i have been averaging 4 to 5 calls a shift, have worked everything from a couple of codes to so pretty bad MVA's and everything in between by no means seasoned but I have had good luck with getting calls (or bad luck depending how you look at it) ..... Fair enough about the medics personality, I guess I was more using that as an example of what i don't want to happen and less of a reason not to go right into medic... as far as the EMT-B, the person i was thinking of with 15 years on was an I and I do know a few b's with 10 plus years and for personal reasons just don't want or have the desire to go further.... all the medics here are paid and depending the time of day and amount of shifts that week you are sched I's and B's can get paid too.
> 
> By no means meant to ruffle any feathers just stating my opinion



You'll find a good majority of the people on these forums will recommend you to get into a medic school as soon as you can. Most people I know who are B's and I's for ten plus years are burnt out and show no motivation what so ever not just to go back to school but in patient care as well, that being said I _personally_ (just one person's opinion) think you should work around a year as a basic prior to going into a medic program -reasons I stated in another post and won't go back into- but no more than that. Also if you do decide to go through with medic school goto an actual school not a medic mill, I went to what one could define as a medic mill and I feel cheated and am still making up for the crucial knowledge I missed despite it was through the Department of the Army I feel very short changed. If one does go through a medic mill and has actually worked the job for any significant period of time and doesn't feel short changed they seriously have some problems...In other words just don't do it.


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## Sail195 (Jul 2, 2009)

Afflixion said:


> You'll find a good majority of the people on these forums will recommend you to get into a medic school as soon as you can. Most people I know who are B's and I's for ten plus years are burnt out and show no motivation what so ever not just to go back to school but in patient care as well, that being said I _personally_ (just one person's opinion) think you should work around a year as a basic prior to going into a medic program -reasons I stated in another post and won't go back into- but no more than that. Also if you do decide to go through with medic school goto an actual school not a medic mill, I went to what one could define as a medic mill and I feel cheated and am still making up for the crucial knowledge I missed despite it was through the Department of the Army I feel very short changed. If one does go through a medic mill and has actually worked the job for any significant period of time and doesn't feel short changed they seriously have some problems...In other words just don't do it.



thats exactly what I plan on, I want to work for a year and next September start medic get some experience first and also save some money so I can do school full time and only work part time so I don't get burnt out, I pulled 40hr work weeks and full course load in college and def don't want to go back to that!


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## EDAC (Jul 7, 2009)

Trevor,

You are going to let us know WHEN you graduate in a couple of days, right? Good luck, I hope it works out for you. Thats a lot of things to learn in a very short period of time, I'm not sure i could do it. I study 4 hours a night 5 days a week and still forget things, but I am getting better, now that we are working scenerios things are making sense, and starting to come together.
I'm pulling for you and hope you do well, study hard, just a couple more days!


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## trevor1189 (Jul 8, 2009)

UPDATE: Passed my state practical today, state written is tomorrow, then I am done! Just have to wait to get my certificate. 

Not really worried about the written I have done great with the written tests in class so far, plus I can always retake it if I do something stupid.

Will post back tomorrow once I am all done with class and let you know.


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## UsualSuspect147 (Jul 8, 2009)

My opninion means nothing yet since I'm not even in school yet, but I would never want to take a course like that. I would feel like I wasn't absorbing anything and on top of it would have no time to ask questions or practically apply any of the information that I was already forgetting.


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## Summit (Jul 8, 2009)

DHarris52 said:


> Precisely why the accelerated program is not for everyone.
> 
> Everyone learns differently.
> 
> ...



Guess who usually ends up in the accelerated programs? It's not usually the ones who do the best in a totally immersive intense learning environment. They are the slackers who want instant gratification. 

I know. 

I went to through an accelerated program, but it wasn't even a mill. It was through a community college. It was a 180 hour combined NREMT/WEMT course that lasted 5 weeks (it was really over 200 class hours NOT including testing nor the 24-48 hours of clinicals (I took 48)). Of the people in the class, one other student and I were the only ones I'd have classified as "immersive learners." The instruction was as great, but most people who choose the intense compressed EMT classes don't learn that way nor retain it. For that reason, the college ended the condensed program and only offers the 1 semester NREMT-B program (they also have a 3 semester AAS in Paramedicine). That other student and I are the only ones from that class that I know to still be in emergency services.


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## trevor1189 (Jul 8, 2009)

I had no problem, I had previous knowledge and field practice plus I am just good at science. So being "accelerated" was right at my pace. If it would have been slower I would have been bored.

Now, the people who have no experience in the field and aren't familiar with it at all, they didn't do so well.

As for the instructors, the lead instructor is the county coroner and also the paramedic supervisor for a large ambulance company based near a level one trauma center. Very knowledgable and didn't just teach us the minimum, but made us get an understanding of why, so when we get out in the field we aren't robots working down a step by step sheet.

We also had the state medical director come in and speak in our class, so I would say the class went better than I expected it to.


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## smurfe (Jul 9, 2009)

I have read through this thread and got a chuckle or two. I have seen some arrogant statements from a few folks who I recognize from other forums. One one side I agree with the majority but on the other I have to take a stance on the other side. Many are not seeing the whole picture here.

I will be the first to state that I am not a fan of these accelerated programs. I will also say though that I am not a fan of many of the standard length programs. Lets take a look though at the real "jist" of why many of these accelerate programs exist. Many are situated in areas that are rural and protected by volunteer services. There is a severe lack of EMT's in these areas. This is a marketing tool to get people to take a class to gain membership for these services. They are also provided as a prerequisite class for those taking other health care classes such as nursing as "easy" and "quick" credits for their current profession classes. 

So lets look at the rural area that is severely understaffed or have no providers at all. When you have an emergency what do you want? Absolutely no one coming to scrape you up and get you to definitive care or at least someone who has somewhat of a clue on what to do? Again, I am not advocating these programs but for many of them, I see why they exist. Now I will say I see a few that are there basically to make a buck and for those who appear to want the easy way out

I have met a few folks that have taken these classes. Some are totally worthless to the profession and are weeded out by the providers pretty quick or actually never make it to a provider as they never pass the testing. I have met quite a few though that were actually competent at the greenest level. It is then the preceptors job to make them an EMT. These classes are really just there to pass the certification test. You then learn to be an EMT from your mentor. If you don't have a mentor, you are pretty well hosed and will not make it in this field. 

I don't buy the "lack of respect" thing in this profession. You earn your respect not from where you went to school but by what you say and do but not only you yourself but by your entire team. I took my EMT class in 1979 and it wasn't much more knowledge than is taught in the First Responder class now. My Paramedic class in 1986 was 5 months from start to finish going two nights a week and this included clinicals. I was ready for anything when I came out of each class. I had a great mentor though each time.

My only advice I could give anyone taking a class such as this is to find yourself a good, experienced mentor and milk them for everything they have. My advice to all here making the arrogant statements slamming these programs is to take these people under your wing and help them. Then the "respect" level for our field will raise. If you continue to condemn them nothing will ever change and in reality it is ourselves shooting ourselves in the foot to get this respect you desire. EMS is a team based environment. As long as there are "Lone Rangers" here, nothing will change. The damage to this profession is done by "experienced" providers, not the Probies. They don't know any better. We do. 

Once again. let me state that I am on no way endorsing these accelerated programs. I believe in education as much as the next person. I am just saying I just see why they exist and in some areas succeed and I support why they are there. EMS is not a template. In some areas it just has to be this way.


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## VentMedic (Jul 9, 2009)

smurfe said:


> So lets look at the rural area that is severely understaffed or have no providers at all. When you have an emergency what do you want? Absolutely no one coming to scrape you up and get you to definitive care or *at least someone who has somewhat of a clue on what to do?* Again, I am not advocating these programs but for many of them, I see why they exist. Now I will say I see a few that are there basically to make a buck and for those who appear to want the easy way out


 
Being rural should not mean you decrease standards just to get warm bodies with a patch on the street. The residents of the rural communities are entitled to well trained and educated providers just as anywhere else.

Rural hospitals still require the same education and competency for their staff and do not make exceptions because of location. 

Sorry, somewhat of a clue is just not good enough.


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## smurfe (Jul 9, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Being rural should not mean you decrease standards just to get warm bodies with a patch on the street. The residents of the rural communities are entitled to well trained and educated providers just as anywhere else.
> 
> Rural hospitals still require the same education and competency for their staff and do not make exceptions because of location.
> 
> Sorry, somewhat of a clue is just not good enough.



Sorry, got to disagree with you. I want to get to definitive care. Didn't say I was gonna jump for joy. You can just lay there and wait for a provider that meets your requirements. Hope they bring their resume. I knew there would be comments like this. Evidently you have never lived in BFE. Didn't say I condone it or supports it. Just saying I got a clue to why these programs exist.  :sad:


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## smurfe (Jul 9, 2009)

Forgot to add to, Comparing Rural EMS to a Rural hospital is like comparing apples to chainsaws. Not even the same planet. Rural EMS is provided by the guy that owns the hardware store on a part time volunteer basis taking time from his job and family. Rural hospitals are staffed by full time paid staff. Don't you think that the hardware store owner would go to a "full fledged" class if they could? I bet they would in a heart beat but if they do there is no one to run the store which is their life and income. 

Once again I will state. I do not support these accelerated classes. I just realize why "SOME" of them exist.


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## VentMedic (Jul 9, 2009)

smurfe said:


> Sorry, got to disagree with you. I want to get to definitive care. Didn't say I was gonna jump for joy. You can just lay there and wait for a provider that meets your requirements. Hope they bring their resume. I knew there would be comments like this. Evidently you have never lived in BFE. Didn't say I condone it or supports it. Just saying I got a clue to why these programs exist. :sad:


 
So you are just providing a taxi ride to the hospital for the definitive care? 

Providing poorly trained providers is not acceptable. The people that live in rural areas of this country should not be treated like third class citizens just because some who want to do EMS do not take it serious enough to get properly trained and educated. 



> Forgot to add to, Comparing Rural EMS to a Rural hospital is like comparing apples to chainsaws. Not even the same planet. Rural EMS is provided by the guy that owns the hardware store on a part time volunteer basis taking time from his job and family. Rural hospitals are staffed by full time paid staff. Don't you think that the hardware store owner would go to a "full fledged" class if they could? I bet they would in a heart beat but if they do there is no one to run the store which is their life and income.


 
Why is it so different? RNs and RRTs must find a school to attend for at least two years. MDs still must go to at least 12 years. Why do those in EMS whine about attending a 3, 6 or 12 month program? If you don't want to make the commitment, step aside and let those who want EMS to be a profession do the job. Those that insist on this "oh woe is me whacker mentality" are doing EMS a disservice as well the community they supposedly serve.

BTW, some states do provide paid ALS to even those that live in BFE.


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## atropine (Jul 9, 2009)

[QUOTE= 

Why is it so different? RNs and RRTs must find a school to attend for at least two years. 
 Because the are careers, again people don't like to hear this, but ems is a stepping ston job to bigger and better paying careers such as RN, RT, X-ray techs ans so forth at least where I come from anyways and it's not about to change anytime soon.


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## smurfe (Jul 9, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> So you are just providing a taxi ride to the hospital for the definitive care?
> 
> Providing poorly trained providers is not acceptable. The people that live in rural areas of this country should not be treated like third class citizens just because some who want to do EMS do not take it serious enough to get properly trained and educated.
> 
> ...



OK, this is my last post on this one as there is no need to hash this out and beat a dead horse. You continually fail to realize that I am not supporting this concept. I don't have to post in a conservative manner on this forum as I do not own it. I post as well not from my attitude but from personal experiance and observation.

Since you edited the last post and deleted the statement "You are too young and do not have enough education to be determine what the people in your community deserve for health care and EMS." Lets give you a little bit about my background. I have been in EMS 30 years now. I ran my first EMS call June 5th, 1980. I have 2 degrees. One a BS and one an MBA so I have a little education. I have been an EMT since 1980 and a paramedic since 1986. I have ran a few calls in my life with lets say around 30,000 to be conservative. I have been an Administrator so I have an idea of what a community wants and in fact demands. I am also a State Certified EMS instructor. I have mostly worked metro municipal EMS in my career but have worked rural volunteer as well as private services. I have been around the block a time or two.

I grew up in a rural area. The closest ambulance was 25 miles from where I lived and it was staffed by a paid on call staff. If there was an EMS call in my rural community there was absolutely no assistance available until the ambulance arrived with an average 30 minute arrive time. No first responders, no nothing. The people in this community were not affluent. Most made minimum wage or just a bit better. They could not afford to take time off work and drive a conservative 60 miles one way to the closest EMS training program. A concept like this would of been a life saver in a situation like this. If fact a similar program was administered to the volunteer fire department there. So, instead of sitting there for close to 30 minutes watching your dead family member lay on the floor you had someone there to help you within a few minutes. Sure, they weren't the best trained but you had some help. As I said, in some situations these classes are great. In situations where the goal is to pump out patches they aren't and I would never support them. 

You can not condone someone for taking such a class though. As said before, many who enroll in these classes do so as it is their only option. Some just don't know any better. And yes, some do it for the easy way out. These are easy to spot and are easy to get rid of. Why would you say that if they did this they should not even attempt a class? What if it was the only option? Then also, why would you stigmatize this person and not take your experience and skill and mold them into a competent provider at an advanced level? You are missing the entire point with your "My way or the highway" attitude. This is the mentality that heaps the stigma on EMS which must be bad where you live and work because we don't have that where I live and work. 

My philosophy is to help anyone advance that I can. That is why I choose to be a preceptor. I hold their hands and let them take baby steps. Usually it works but sometimes it doesn't. I have had students from accelerated programs (not this accelerated, but close) and have seen many go on to advanced levels of care with the experience they receive in the beginning. Why don't you look at the glass half full instead of half empty and do your duty that the EMS Oath dictates to help others be it a patient or a fellow provider. It makes the shift a lot more relaxed without the negativity. I do truly see where you are coming from and to an extent agree but I know what You have as well as I is just not possible for many. It is our job and responsibility to assure that those that did take this route are competent and productive. It is our responsibility to convince them to seek more credentialed training opportunities. Not ostracize them. That is how this industry succeeds and advances.


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## VentMedic (Jul 9, 2009)

Your whole post is still a bunch of excuses to keep a volunteer service with EMTs who don't have time to really concentrate on much associated with the profession because they are too busy with their other degrees and lives. 

It is those who boast their "expertise, education and knowledge" that want EMS to stay just as it is in their communities who are sometimes looking solely at their own egos and needs.  Who knows one of them big city companies might come to town or heaven forbid a FD might try to do ALS in that area.   In that respect you may be more of the problem than the help that community really needs.


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## trevor1189 (Jul 9, 2009)

Just a heads up. I passed my written today. Should be getting my state certificate in the mail next week sometime. Also had some quizzing from some experienced emts and had no problem answering their questions. So accelerated doesn't mean less it just means the same faster. Yeah it is a problem if you can't keep up with the material, but if you can why not take the class full time rather than taking it spread over months? I still put in the same number of hours as other emt-bs...


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