# OEC to equal to an EMT?????????



## Summit (Dec 22, 2004)

This is somewhat amusing and also disturbing.

While I attempted to remain tactful still...

http://www.telemarktalk.com/phpBB/viewtopi...p?p=12078#11213

Apparently National Ski Patrol is trying to work with the National Registry to allow people holding Outdoor Emergency Care certificates (issued by the National Ski Patrol) to get NREMT-B tickets with minimal to no training.



> *he goal is to allow OEC-trained persons to, without having to attend/pass the typical EMT course, earn an EMT certification that would be nationally recognised.*



The only reason I could see the notoriously difficult to work with National Registry wanting to go along with this is that it would make them money (while the NSP is worried that OEC is becoming irrelevant and they will lose money).

For those who do not know, Outdoor Emergency Care is an 80hr course with no clinicals and a sole continuing education requirement of an annual 8 hour refresher with no test required to maintain the certification. It has a curriculum set by the NSP with a textbook that closely resembles the AAOS EMT textbook, however the OEC course spends a lot of time concentrating on patient packaging in sleds and other ski patrol specific skills.

I was completely unaware of the NSP efforts before that post.


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## ffemt8978 (Dec 23, 2004)

I don't think the NREMT will buy into it because of the minimal CE requirements to keep your OEC.  After all, as a NREMT-B you must have 24 hours formal and 24 hours CME to recert every two years.


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## rescuecpt (Dec 23, 2004)

um, how bout EMT courses be recognized as EMTs, and that's it?

In NY NREMT doesn't mean shizzle - you have to also have a state cert to get reciprocity in NY.


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## PArescueEMT (Dec 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rescuecpt_@Dec 23 2004, 11:37 AM
> * um, how bout EMT courses be recognized as EMTs, and that's it?
> 
> In NY NREMT doesn't mean shizzle - you have to also have a state cert to get reciprocity in NY. *


 Agreed. PA has the same standards. Except here, the DOH don't give a damn where you hold your state card, you still hve to go through a PA EMT-B class to get the state card.


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## Luno (Dec 23, 2004)

That's the same way it is in WA, frankly, I think it's BS by a bunch of over zealous medical directors that are creating their own little kingdoms.  There should be a national standard, and directors should be allowed to add or remove "skill sets" from the national standards while in their areas, but not to demand the course be taken completely over again.  OEC vs. EMT, while I've worked with some good OEC guys, I've also worked with OEC people who don't know or can't take BPs, and don't have the skills to properly bandage open wounds.  I think while specialized, OEC should be considered as an add-on to a basic EMT course almost as and additional specialty, not a substitute.  OEC doesn't give people enough to be able to work competantly in a BLS environment.  That's my opinion as a former pro ski patroller.


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## ffemt8978 (Dec 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Luno_@Dec 23 2004, 08:05 PM
> * That's the same way it is in WA, frankly, I think it's BS by a bunch of over zealous medical directors that are creating their own little kingdoms.  There should be a national standard, and directors should be allowed to add or remove "skill sets" from the national standards while in their areas, but not to demand the course be taken completely over again.  OEC vs. EMT, while I've worked with some good OEC guys, I've also worked with OEC people who don't know or can't take BPs, and don't have the skills to properly bandage open wounds.  I think while specialized, OEC should be considered as an add-on to a basic EMT course almost as and additional specialty, not a substitute.  OEC doesn't give people enough to be able to work competantly in a BLS environment.  That's my opinion as a former pro ski patroller. *


 Man, don't even get me started about WA state.  With the various levels of EMT, the requirements of which change from county to county, I really wish WA would just go to National Registry and be done with it.

What's really messed up is that if you're certified EMT-IV in one county, you're an EMT-B in the next county unless their MPD signs off on it.  :angry:


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## Summit (Dec 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Luno_@Dec 23 2004, 10:05 PM
> * OEC vs. EMT, while I've worked with some good OEC guys, I've also worked with OEC people who don't know or can't take BPs, and don't have the skills to properly bandage open wounds.  I think while specialized, OEC should be considered as an add-on to a basic EMT course almost as and additional specialty, not a substitute.  OEC doesn't give people enough to be able to work competantly in a BLS environment.  That's my opinion as a former pro ski patroller. *


 I think you've summed it up quite well. I've also worked with OECs who were stellar and others who I thought hadn't even taken a first aid course. OEC is considered EMT continuing ed in many places. However, from what rick was saying on the other site, it looks like the OEC automatically yielding an EMT cert is in the early stages.

Do you still ski?


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## SafetyPro2 (Dec 30, 2004)

> _Originally posted by ffemt8978_@Dec 23 2004, 08:14 PM
> * Man, don't even get me started about WA state.  With the various levels of EMT, the requirements of which change from county to county, I really wish WA would just go to National Registry and be done with it.
> 
> What's really messed up is that if you're certified EMT-IV in one county, you're an EMT-B in the next county unless their MPD signs off on it.  :angry: *


 Same here in California at the moment. Each county has its own EMSA, and while there's a minimum state standard, each county has considerable leeway in setting local scope of practice. For example, as an LA County EMT, I can assist with an epi-pen. An Orange County EMT (just 20-30 miles from me) can't even touch one.

Each county has had its own testing too, with some (like Orange County and several others) using NREMT-B and others (like LA County) having their own. The whole state's shifting over to NREMT-B now, however, they're NOT adopting the NREMT-B scope! Thus, prospective EMTs will be tested on things like the CombiTube which are in the NREMT-B scope but which they won't be allowed to actually use. <shakes head>


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## ffemt8978 (Dec 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by SafetyPro_@Dec 30 2004, 09:42 PM
> * [Same here in California at the moment. Each county has its own EMSA, and while there's a minimum state standard, each county has considerable leeway in setting local scope of practice. For example, as an LA County EMT, I can assist with an epi-pen. An Orange County EMT (just 20-30 miles from me) can't even touch one.
> 
> Each county has had its own testing too, with some (like Orange County and several others) using NREMT-B and others (like LA County) having their own. The whole state's shifting over to NREMT-B now, however, they're NOT adopting the NREMT-B scope! Thus, prospective EMTs will be tested on things like the CombiTube which are in the NREMT-B scope but which they won't be allowed to actually use. <shakes head> *


 That explains it...

All you Californians that moved north messed us all up...


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## Luno (Dec 31, 2004)

FFEMT, you've forgotten King Co, if you're a WA EMT-P, NREMT-P, EMT-P CC, Para-God herself, you're still just an EMT-B when you're in King County.


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## ffemt8978 (Dec 31, 2004)

I haven't forgotten it...I'm ignoring it.


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## kyleybug (Jan 2, 2005)

I can top that! The hospitals in my area are starting to require an NREMT-IV certified individual to also go thru CNA training in order to keep their jobs in the hospital, I guess a few didn't make a bed right or didn't push the wheel chair right. It is so degrading the way they treat us, a CNA is only a certified butt wiper compared to our level of training, I guess it will be the CNA holder that is considered for grandfathering in on the EMT cert. next! I think the whole thing is a joke, I have come across a few first responders that have to be told to get the hell out of the way when I am trying to run a line hell give them their cert too, it's all good! :wacko:


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## OECTECH (Apr 4, 2006)

Hey Guys and Gals

I found this forum on Google.  I am an OEC Technician and Patroller in the National Ski Patrol.  I have read through this topic and would like to give my input from the other side.

The course I completed was a 115 hour OEC Course and a 264 hour on mountain training.  Thats a total of 379 of both OEC and Mtn. Transportation training.  

The OEC Final consists of a written exam as well as stations just like the EMT-B.  Then we have on mtn. training.

I definitely agree I am sure there are OEC Tech. that have problems taking BP's as I have worked with EMT's and Nurses that didn't know where common bones like the Tib. Fib. were.  I also have had EMT's miss crepitus in the chest when conducting an exam.  So just to show I can believe an OEC Tech. may not of taken a BP correctly just as EMT's make mistakes.

Remember, where do EMT's generally backboard a patient or pull traction?  Probably not on a snow/ice covered slope on a Mtn.  We as ski patrollers respond to everything from an unresponsive patient with multiple traumas on an ice slope in the freezing rain to responding to car accidents on the road entering the resort.

I hope you guys now understand that ski patrollers/OEC Tech. work in ridiculous conditions doing the same things EMT-B's do.

I believe OEC Tech. should be able to challenge the EMT course and just take the final as EMT's have to do the same to become OEC Tech's.

Hope it shed some light on this topic!


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## Summit (Apr 7, 2006)

OECTech Your training is more than most OEC programs and onmountain training in not a NSP requirement nor is it necessarily applicable to ED and EMS. It is possible to become an OEC without ever touching a patient.

Unless NSP wishes to increase their standards OECs should not be allowed to challenge EMT certifications. It is exceedingly unlikely that such a thing would be allowed. I've heard nothing further on this. 

Welcome to the forum.


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## TTLWHKR (Apr 7, 2006)

How does OEC compare to Wilderness EMT-Advanced?

I took that course on my own time, and found it slightly interesting.


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## Summit (Apr 7, 2006)

I'd assume that WEMT advanced would be like intermediate... so you had the WEMT + WALS... and OEC is a EMT-B minus some education plus some wilderness stuff


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## Jon (Apr 7, 2006)

Summit said:
			
		

> OECTech Your training is more than most OEC programs and onmountain training in not a NSP requirement nor is it necessarily applicable to ED and EMS. It is possible to become an OEC without ever touching a patient.
> 
> Unless NSP wishes to increase their standards OECs should not be allowed to challenge EMT certifications. It is exceedingly unlikely that such a thing would be allowed. I've heard nothing further on this.
> 
> Welcome to the forum.


I've got to agree with you.

However, having the NSP change the curriculum to include the DOT standards wouldn't be a bad idea.

And welcome back, Summit!


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## OECTECH (Apr 7, 2006)

And I completely understand about what happens in a lot of OEC classes, this was realized by my OEC Instructor of Record as well thats why my class was more than most and then my mtn. requires an on mtn training season.  

But see I know hundreds of patrollers that have gone through the same kind of training as I have in my area and im sure few thousand in the country.  Remember this is a limited organization only about 27,000 members.  To cover 99.9% of the ski areas in the US.  Also OEC is now geared to any outdoor emergency thats why it is not WEC (Winter Emergency Care) anymore.  It is taken by many other outdoor groups like Search and Rescue groups.

I feel that it should not be like you get OEC and you can become an EMT but I do feel that an OEC Tech should not take the full EMT course.  Just take the EMT-B refresher and pass the EMT-B final examination.  If they can do that they certainly can become an EMT.  OEC tech. definitely have a much greater Emergency Care knowledge base than the average citizen and therefore have to take the entire course.

Take the Refresher andPass EMT-B final and become EMT
Take the Refresher and Fail EMT-B final and take the course


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## fm_emt (Apr 7, 2006)

*Maybe a thread derail...*

but...

As an EMT that's considering further training, what would be more useful?
W-EMT or the OEC training?

I do spend quite a bit of time off roading/etc and am often in a group that's far off the beaten path.
But none of us ski. I've always heard that the OEC was definitely geared towards those with an interest in ski patrol, which I do not have. I am a total disaster wieh skis! 

How are the W-EMT courses? Good to have? I'd really love to hear from both sides.


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## OECTECH (Apr 7, 2006)

hey rcmedic,

W-EMT is great course from what I have heard from people who teach and have taken this course.  From what I have heard it has almost the exact same content as OEC.

OEC is also a great course!  It is not at all geared towards ski patrol when taking the course.  The majority of the text has absolutely nothing to do with ski patrol directly.  The ONLY time the course will be geared more to ski patrol is when if you were to take it at a mountain with all people joining the NSP.  My class had 4 white water rafting rescue guys, 3 summer camp health officers, and 12 ski patrollers.

Remember OEC is not just winter or skiing emergencies even though it is put out by the NSP it is all Outdoor Emergencies hence the name Outdoor Emergency Care.

Both courses are well worth it.

The only thing that probably sets them apart is cost.  I have absolutely no idea how much W-EMT costs but I know non-members of the NSP have to pay around $300 to take OEC.




Guys I am glad to be here as a member it seems like a great forum with a lot of very skilled and great people.  I hope you guys will also except me in even though my training and job is a little different then yours.


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## JJR512 (Apr 7, 2006)

Where is W-EMT taught? I haven't heard of that.


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## OECTECH (Apr 7, 2006)

SOLO provides the WEMT course.

www.soloschools.com

It looks great but a little pricey and you need to complete it all in one shot like a 6 week stretch everyday.


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## TTLWHKR (Apr 7, 2006)

http://www.wemsi.org/


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## emtff376 (Apr 9, 2006)

My OEC (then WEC) course was minimal training at best, maybe 60 hours tops.  I have learned tons over the years and am still thankful everyday that I took the course and entered the National Ski Patrol System.  My mountain also requires that every patroller take a classroom OEC course, then an on the hill practical course (8 weekends, all weekend) with a second exam at the end.  Our refresher is annual, however, our patrol is so small, the majority of us end up teaching it for other patrols that don't have refreshers.

NSP bylaws do not regulate the number of hours that an OEC course must be, nor do they say how long a refresher must be.  Fortunately, steps are being taken for better QA/QC of courses and refreshers, as well as continuity in evaluations.

My EMT course, sketchy at best.  I've learned a lot over the years.  Sorry to sound like a broken record.  

I don't feel that OECers should be allowed to be dubbed EMT at the wave of the hand.  I had heard rumblings in my division of a bridge course, kind of like when EMT-A's became EMT-Bs, but haven't heard anything recently about it.

One of the things I did think was good with OEC that I wish EMT (at least in WV it's this way) would adopt is the method of the practical exam.  With OEC, it's like a real life scenario, you don't know what's going on until you get to the scene.  My EMT test, I knew exactly what to expect walking into each room, which I don't feel is very realistic.  

Obviously, I was not taught any type of ambulance ops in OEC.  That will definitely be a weak point for any OECer who is interested in EMT, unless they run as aides on their local squad (which is what I did for added experience).

One thing I would like to see from both organizations is a meeting of the minds on lingo!  We do the same freaking surveys but we HAVE to call them something different.  That frustrates me.

Enough rambling, sorry to butt in.  I've been doing both for a long time (EMT and OEC that is, not rambling and butting in)


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## Sailorjoe (Apr 27, 2021)

Rather than making this a turf war, why don’t we look at the commonalities between Woofer, OEC and EMT?

As far as I am concerned you should draw a Venn diagram and you will see that large parts of the education and training overlaps. Review the areas that don’t overlap and you will be able to develop some bridge course type education to help transition from one to the other.

The obstacle that I see is that EMT training is regulated at the state level (NREMT is a testing standard and not a practice standard). So finding standards and language that is acceptable to all regulating entities will surly be a big hurdle to overcome.


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## ffemt8978 (Apr 27, 2021)

Closed for 15 year old necro post


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