# Advice on Jurisdiction Issues



## Mountain Res-Q (Jun 22, 2010)

Recently a persistent problem locally has become more pronounced and frequently encountered.  This problem has had band aids put on it over the years, but we need a solid fix; a fix that I believe I have the solution for, but I would like some input form experienced people here who have seen this problem before, understand the dynamics involved, and have solutions that have failed & worked.  Here I go…

Again, I am a Team Leader for my county’s Sheriff’s Search and Rescue Team; Team Training Officer and Medical Team Leader (in addition to doing swiftwater, ropes, etc...).  As is the case in most states and counties west of the Mississippi, the Sheriff’s Office has jurisdiction over Search and Rescue.  In California, in fact, it is actual mandated by Law the Sheriff holds responsibility for SAR.  What SAR services are provided and how they are provided depends on the county.  In the mountain counties, such as mine, services provided typically include everything the Fire Department has not poached over the years.  The way I describe it is that we do everything the Fire Department and Forest Service is unwilling to do or incapable of doing.  This includes:  Wilderness Medical Calls, Swiftwater/Flood Rescue, High Angle Rope Rescue, Mine/Cave Rescue, Dive Rescue, Helicopter Rescue, and (off course) searches in urban and wilderness environments for missing hikers, snowmobiles, bikers, hunters, fisherman, runaway kids, and Alzheimer’s patients (to name a few) using trackers, horses, dogs, ATVs, Snowmobiles, helicopters, skiers, and snowshoers.

So, it would seem that we have a clearly defined role in the Emergency Services Community.  These are all things that the Fire Departments and Forest Service CANNOT (either by law, policy, or choice) provide.  However, try to convince them of that… sarcastically LOL.  Recently these agencies (and others) are moving in on our areas of responsibility.  They are doing so without changes in law/policy, without having the proper training/certification to do so, and are often screwing things up to the potential detriment of themselves and the people they are seeking to rescue.  Their reasoning seems to be a personal dislike for SAR (no clue why) and a desire to gain a higher call volume and increase/justify their budget.  Unfortunately, their actions are having a huge ramification on the smooth operation of emergency services in this county.  Let me give you 2 recent examples that highlight the problems (and these are a small sampling):

1.  Woman is hiking in a wilderness area late in the evening, slips on a log, and suffers a vaginal impalement on the log.  Based on cell phone call, the woman is about 3 miles in on a moderately difficult trail and tehn off trail near a river.  Fire, Forest Service, and EMS get dispatched; 1 Forest Service LEO, 2 Volunteer Engines, 2 State Engines, 3 Fire Chiefs, and an ALS Ambulance (all fully staffed).  We get dispatched out 30 minutes latter because our SAR Coordinator (a Deputy Sheriff) had to be asked for permission to dispatch SAR (an issue, I know).  By the time I get there 3 separate groups (non-SAR) have wandered in the wilderness to find here.  These groups include Ambulance, Fire, and Forest Service.  None of them are equipped for a wilderness environment (no map, compass, GPS, survival gear, proper clothing, etc…) and only 1 is familiar with the trail system.  As a result, 2 of the groups sent in got lost themselves and were instructed to stay put and wait for the one person familiar with the trails to find them.  In the end, the woman was fine and no one got hurt.  But, during fire season, they stripped 50% of the high county’s fire fighting resources and placed them into a situation that could have been BAD had they really gotten lost and the spotty communications failed on them.  Meanwhile, the Chiefs back at the trailhead are making plans that 110% ignore SAR established preplanning and then (before the woman is located) try to cancel the SAR response on the belief that “we have enough (untrained) resources on scene” who needs the trained resources…

2.  (The straw the broke the camels back and has us up in arms).  Last night a man was walking along a local river when he slipped in and was swept away.  The location is 110% in my county.  My county has only one Swiftwater Rescue Team… US!!!  Who got dispatched out?  An Ambulance, 2 paid engines, a volunteer engine, and 2 chiefs.  NONE  of which are trained, certified, equipped, or experienced in Swiftwater Rescue.  What’s more, his location is unknown… which means that he would have to be SEARCHED for.  Seems clear that we should have been dispatched out immediately.  We were never called because Fire said they didn’t need us.  In case you are wondering, the man is still missing!  The only reason we are even aware of all of this is because the Newspaper told us so.  And instead of being on scene, our Team Members are spending the day on the phones enraged over the situation...

These are not isolated incidents.  Procedure for Sheriff’s Dispatch is that if the Dispatcher feels that the call might be a SAR Call they first notify the SAR Coordinator for permission to dispatch us.  This process can take hours at times (3 hours last week for 2 missing teenagers) and in the mean time Deputies, Firefighters, and others may be taking charge of a situation they are not trained and prepared to handle.  Often times we never even get called out (or get cancelled enroute) because other agencies muddled through it.  Usually these other agencies are responding L&S and when they get on scene they have no clue what to do or how to do it.  Our people have the training, certification, and experience, in Search Management, Mantracking, Wilderness Medicine, Swiftwater Rescue, Rope Rescue, Mine Rescue, Dive Rescue, Helicopter Rescue, and many other disciplines AND ARE NOT BE UTILIZED even though these calls are our responsibility and the other responding agencies have no capability in these areas (and have no intention of getting the necessary training, certification, and equipment).

The real issues are these:  There actions and inactions have the real possibility of killing themselves and the victims (Fire used a CHP Helo to short haul an ankle sprain last year from a popular trail even though Fire had no helicopter experience or training and, based on what we saw, could have killed the patient in the process of trying to figure it out).  For us, it is hard to keep the Team motivated when it is clear that we are the bast*rd step children of these other agencies and our call volume is being robbed from us.  How, as Team Training Officer, can I encourage continued training to keep our Swiftwater Team, Medical Team, and Rope Rescue Team (to name a few) current and mission ready when it is clear we will not be utilized routinely.  The problem is the equivalent to: instead of dispatching an ambulance to medical calls, they dispatched police officers instead who threw CVA or MI patients into the back of a patrol car and took them to the hospital; meanwhile a fully staffed ALS ambulance sat in quarters a block away.  Why even have that trained and ready resource sitting there?  Why would you as a Medic on that rig have any motivation to be a Medic and further your education in the pursuit of being better at your job when you have no patients?  

So what would you do if you were in our place to correct the situation; NOT FOR EGO SAKE, but to better the system so that potential victims and patients receive the best response they can?  If they want to shut us down after 35 years of operation in the field, fine… but that means you have to 100% replace us in all areas that we have jurisdiction; something they can’t and won’t do.  I have my solutions, but can you provide an objective opinion?  I will provide my solution latter…


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## JPINFV (Jun 22, 2010)

Do you have a PR person?


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jun 22, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Do you have a PR person?



No.  Anything of that nature is handled through the Sheriff’s Office.  We are a "division" within the SO; but are to an extent a separate entity that organizes and handles our own stuff and acts as a resource for the Sheriff’s Office.  From an administrative standpoint we have the SAR Coordinator (a Deputy who is also a former Paramedic Supervisor who is 100% on our side already) and the various Administrative and Operational Team Leaders.  It is those Team Leaders (myself, the CAO, the Swiftwater Team Leader, The Rope Rescue Team Leader, and the Team Secretary) that are gonna have to be the force behind change.


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## mycrofft (Jun 22, 2010)

*Wow. OK this might be true for many.*

1. Of course they want to swipe mission to get funding.
2. Who is dispatching this way? Do they run 911 and are bogarting your calls too?
3. Are you paid or vollie? If volunteer, under whose aegis are you working? They need to either defend you or tell you what the new world order is going to be; if they see vollies displacing paid people, they will cut the vollies out.
4. If you have legal basis, get the applicable law and study it exactly, not on anyone else's say-so no matter how higly placed. They can be wrong too. You might find that while you are the designees, other services are not _*excluded*_. 
5. In that case, who is supposed to be the "capo di capos" under NIMS when a combined services operation involving SAR develops? And if your competitors are jumping the gun, or NIMS isn't being activated by proper authority so LE etc are moving into the void, or if dispatch data is being witheld or sent only to LE etc., who is the emergency management honcho who can bring down fire on them?

This sort of thing is going to get more common. It already is down here. Fire chiefs and department heads are being handed their (civilian) coat and hat one after another so their survivors will do whatever it takes to inflate their operations.


ADDEENDUM: I see you addressed some of my questions while I was typing. This may come down to individuals in Dispatch and the officer heading your operation.


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## LucidResq (Jun 22, 2010)

Having seen similar stuff happen out here, I think a lot of it really does come down to the head honchos of the sheriff's office and dispatch. 

PS: you should see the fit the SAR agencies out here had when a local (mostly volunteer) FD billed a man $5900 for a pretty simple rescue in a particular awesome SAR team's jurisdiction, they were on the call too but I believe needed more hands.


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## mycrofft (Jun 23, 2010)

*Ask /suggest/tell your boss to lean on the dispatch first.*

Shake 'em a little and see what falls out. Why are they not sending dispatch messages to the correct responders? Has the SOP been changed and by whom?

THEN the next level is to get the Great Ones together to divvy up the predesignated response assignments. Response time records, and anecdotes as you provided above, would help in that battle. So would getting the head honcho's attention before the character assasination and crossed arms/head shaking begin, as they inevitably will.


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## DrParasite (Jun 23, 2010)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> We are a "division" within the SO; but are to an extent a separate entity that organizes and handles our own stuff and acts as a resource for the Sheriff’s Office.


So you are part of the SO.  who handles dispatch?  the SO or another 3rd party?


Mountain Res-Q said:


> From an administrative standpoint we have the SAR Coordinator (a Deputy who is also a former Paramedic Supervisor who is 100% on our side already) and the various Administrative and Operational Team Leaders.


So you have a SAR Coordinator who has to give the approval to dispatch the team.  How about this: tell dispatch, if they ever have a case where they think they might need to SAR team, instead of requesting permission, it's a automatic dispatch.  any problems, the SAR Coordinator can cancel or fix it.


Mountain Res-Q said:


> It is those Team Leaders (myself, the CAO, the Swiftwater Team Leader, The Rope Rescue Team Leader, and the Team Secretary) that are gonna have to be the force behind change.


Ok, so change it.

It seems like the biggest problem you have is with dispatch.  and since you both operate under the SO, then it should be a simple fix.  Change the dispatch policies.  anything that sounds SAR-like gets an automatic team dispatch.  At least get the people going.

Often all it takes is a phone call, or an email, in order to get the dispatch policies changed.  Once the policy is changed, then take actions (via formal complaints or normal channels) against the dispatchers for not following proper dispatch policy.


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## MTEMTB (Jun 23, 2010)

Sounds like a standard p*ssing contest to me. Been in them.


What is your written agreement with the SO? Don't have one? get one fast.

Now reading that it took 3 hours to get the one person to say yes contact SAR that is not right. that time needs to be cut down to less then 15 minutes. If they cannot reach the first person to say yes then they need to call the next person in line.

Dispatch needs to made aware that in certain situations SAR gets the first call and everybody else is second.

Fire should NOT be making the call on whether or not SAR gets paged out. Goes back to dispatch and your training with them.
Did the man who fell into the river die?


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jun 23, 2010)

mycrofft said:


> 1. Of course they want to swipe mission to get funding.
> 2. Who is dispatching this way? Do they run 911 and are bogarting your calls too?
> 3. Are you paid or vollie? If volunteer, under whose aegis are you working? They need to either defend you or tell you what the new world order is going to be; if they see vollies displacing paid people, they will cut the vollies out.
> 4. If you have legal basis, get the applicable law and study it exactly, not on anyone else's say-so no matter how higly placed. They can be wrong too. You might find that while you are the designees, other services are not _*excluded*_.
> ...



2.  All FIRE agencies have one dispatch.  Sheriff, Ambulance, and SAR are dispatched by the SO.  911 Calls via landline are fielded by the SO Dispatch and if they feel Fire is needed they contact Fire Dispatch.

3.  96% of all SAR in the US is vollie.  We are volunteer; on call 24/7 if available.  We are officially a division in the Sheriff’s Office.  Our uniforms say Sheriff…  Our trucks say Sheriff… We are sworn members of the Sheriff’s Office…  We get some Sheriff Funding…  The County Sheriff is ultimately responsible for all SAR in the county and therefore (technically) our Boss.

4.  The Law in California states that the Sheriff is responsible for searching for missing/lost/overdue subjects and the rescue/recovery of these victims.  What rescue services SAR and FIRE provide depend on the county; logistically who in the best position to provide the service?  In most mountain counties SAR typically handles technical rope rescue, swiftwater rescue, mine/cave rescue, and some others.  An unwritten policy in this regard has existed in my county for 35 years…  but to the best of my knowledge nothing is in writing… an obvious problem.

5.  If it is a confirmed SAR call (SAR resources are called in because FIRE has no capabilities and jurisdiction) a Paid Representative of the Sheriff (a Deputy) assumes IC and the most senior volunteer assumes Operations.  In joint operations, either agency may be in charge depending on the mission type…



mycrofft said:


> Shake 'em a little and see what falls out. Why are they not sending dispatch messages to the correct responders? Has the SOP been changed and by whom?
> 
> THEN the next level is to get the Great Ones together to divvy up the predesignated response assignments. Response time records, and anecdotes as you provided above, would help in that battle. So would getting the head honcho's attention before the character assasination and crossed arms/head shaking begin, as they inevitably will.



Yes, part of this is a dispatch issue.  SOP has been (and it is not in writing) for the SAR Dispatchers to determine if the call might require SAR and then notify the SAR Coordinator to seek his opinion.  In the meantime the usually also notify Fire, who usually take that to mean that it is their call.  Rarely will a Fire Captain or Chief analyze the situation and request us either to take the call (they will still be first response) or lend support in a joint operation (such as a basic rope rescue).  That is problem number 2:  Fire has blurred the jurisdictional lines and are ignoring the fact that they don’t have the training, certification, equipment, or jurisdiction to take the call.

Getting “the great ones’ together is a fine idea, except that would include representatives from Sheriff, SAR, CALFIRE, County Fire, 8 (yes, eight) Fire Districts, the Forest Service, and 2 other LE Agencies.  Easier said than done; and it would require SAR to be the motivating force.  Not saying that this is not the end solution… but certain steps need to be made along the way to pave the way to an understanding… HOW?



DrParasite said:


> 1. So you are part of the SO.  who handles dispatch?  the SO or another 3rd party?
> 2. So you have a SAR Coordinator who has to give the approval to dispatch the team.  How about this: tell dispatch, if they ever have a case where they think they might need to SAR team, instead of requesting permission, it's a automatic dispatch.  any problems, the SAR Coordinator can cancel or fix it.
> Ok, so change it.
> 
> ...



1. SO handles dispatch.

2/3. Agreed… maybe what we need (in addition to written agreements with FIRE) is a written policy and procedure with Dispatch that corrects dispatch procedures.  For instance:  Swiftwater, Rope, and Dive rescues receive an immediate SAR dispatch without Coordinator involvement.  Reports of overdue subjects who went backpacking and have not returned home when they were supposed to should have coordinator notification first so that he can assertain the situation from a Law/Missing Persons standpoint (we have had such calls where the “missing people” decided to camp one extra day or –better still- stopped at a Bar before heading home and were not missing… just drunk in a bar…)



MTEMTB said:


> Sounds like a standard p*ssing contest to me. Been in them.
> 
> 1. What is your written agreement with the SO? Don't have one? get one fast.
> 
> ...



Standard pissing match… YES… but not on our part.  I could care less who responds and mitigates the call… as long as they are the best resource to do so.  That means that the responding agency needs to be trained, certified, equipped to do so.  For instance, I don’t respond to Fires; I am not a FF and do not have the training, certification, and equipment to do so.  On the other hand, FIRE doesn’t have the training, certification, and equipment to do search, swiftwater rescue, rope rescue, dive rescue, or wilderness medical rescue… WE DO.  And as long as we do we will continue to train in those areas… but what is the point if instead of us handling these calls, FIRE exceeds its capabilities and takes the calls?

1.  No Agreement needed.  We are part of the SO.  It would be the same as the Sheriff’s Narcotics Team signing a contract with the Sheriff defining their role.  However, a written policy defining jurisdiction for various search and rescue discipline in the county which is agreed to and signed by all the involved agencies… HAS MERIT!

2.  Yep…  as stated above, a dispatch issue… now how to fix… and I am seeing written policies agreed to by everyone in our future (something that should have existed in my mind long ago)..  But, HOW to achieve?


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jun 23, 2010)

So, here is my solution.  My plan is to be non hostile and try to correct the situation without egos so that the end result we are all aiming for is obtained… the rapid safe response of appropriate resources with the well-being of the victims/patients is put first.  Further input is desired in our plans.

Based on everyone’s responses so far, it seems that the agreed solution involves the construction of written policies and procedures with other agencies that provide some measure of search and/or rescue services and with our dispatchers.  These policies should define jurisdiction, dispatch procedures, and response procedures that leave no doubt.

A couple of us are already discussing that.

http://www.oes.ca.gov/WebPage/oeswe... DivisionSearch and Rescue Mutual Aid Program

This is from the Search and Rescue portion of the California emergency management Agency.  This page has many links outlining the requirements to have mutual aid ready SAR Teams (swiftwater, mounted, ropes, etc...)...  Notice the two links entitled "SAR Op Model Memorandum of Understanding" and "SAR Model Operating Plan".  Both documents are suggestions from CALEMA; documents that can be modified to fit each county.  They both detail what types of calls are within the jurisdiction for various agencies (SAR versus FIRE). 

My plan is to take these documents and modify them to fit our county; basically putting the previously unwritten procedures in writing and explaining who has jurisdiction over what and what type of response is warranted.  They we (the Team Leaders) go to the SAR Coordinator and County Sheriff and get their support.  Once we have that we can approach the various fire agencies and make modifications based on their stance.  Hopefully we can then come to an understanding and then sign said documents, agreeing to abide by a response plan that makes sense.

The next step is to take those documents and use them write a policy for dispatch that outlines their protocols for dispatching the correct resource in a timely manner.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?  Any things you would change?  Anything you would make a specific point to accomplish in this process?  Anyone have similar documents (policies) locally that they would like to share so that I can get some ideas?


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## mycrofft (Jun 23, 2010)

*s former firefighter and dispatcher......*

1. Fire may feel obligated to respond if they have received knowledge of an emergency. Also, have they promoted anyone or hired anyone recently who is new/younger and hence likely to be an eager beaver?
2. How to gather them...beer in Las Vegas? Maybe just draw and circulate a memorandum of understanding endorsed by the right people, but keep collecting data including who is dispatching on the instances SAR is not getting the job and Fire is. OR an annual tabletop chiefs' exercise which reinforces proper SOP/NIMS activity.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jun 23, 2010)

mycrofft said:


> 1. Fire may feel obligated to respond if they have received knowledge of an emergency. Also, have they promoted anyone or hired anyone recently who is new/younger and hence likely to be an eager beaver?
> 2. How to gather them...beer in Las Vegas? Maybe just draw and circulate a memorandum of understanding endorsed by the right people, but keep collecting data including who is dispatching on the instances SAR is not getting the job and Fire is. OR an annual tabletop chiefs' exercise which reinforces proper SOP/NIMS activity.



1.  It is CALFIRE that primarily runs the show in the county and is full of young egotistical firefighters who think they are God's gift to the world and EMS and SAR should be their domain.  j/k... NOT REALLY.  This is not just my opinion.  My County handed adminstrative powers to CALFIRE years ago in order to save money and now every other FIRE and EMS agency has issues with this due to a multitude of problems.  Not to say we hate CALFIRE or FF's... but their place needs to be reconsidered.  The SAR issues mentioned here are complicated by CALFIRE... it would be easier to deal with local FIRE if CALFIRE (a state agency) didn't have it's hand very deep in the cookie jar.

2. The District Chiefs have monthly meetings.  If the Team can construct a basic Operations Plan that defines jurisdictions and response protocols and then get the backing of the Sheriff, dealing with the Chiefs should be easy.  They are less of an issue than County Fire and CALFIRE.

Team Members are talking and issues are being discusses.  We have already been individually reviewing the link provided before and considering a course of action.  But, I am kinda close to the issue, and NEED outside thoughts from people not clouded by emotion and local politics... THANX ALL...


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## DrParasite (Jun 24, 2010)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> 2. The District Chiefs have monthly meetings.  If the Team can construct a basic Operations Plan that defines jurisdictions and response protocols and then get the backing of the Sheriff, dealing with the Chiefs should be easy.  They are less of an issue than County Fire and CALFIRE.


This seems to be the crux of the problem.  there are no written protocols.  everything is verbal or dispatcher's discretion.  simple fix, write the damn protocols!!!!

jurisdiction: the entire county/area are you cover as primary, and any areas outside that you can be or often special called for specialty resources.

response protocols: any call reporting any of the following: Wilderness Medical Calls, Swiftwater/Flood Rescue, High Angle Rope Rescue, Mine/Cave Rescue, Dive Rescue, Helicopter Rescue, and (off course) searches in urban and wilderness environments for missing hikers, snowmobiles, bikers, hunters, fisherman, runaway kids, and Alzheimer’s patients (to name a few) using trackers, horses, dogs, ATVs, Snowmobiles, helicopters, skiers, and snowshoers.  if you are going to dispatch any fire/police/ems resource for anything in the above categories, an SAR page must be included to a coordinator and the appropriate team leaders.  after a page is given, the SAR team leader/coordinator will contact dispatch and advise you on how to proceed.  if you hear no response within 15 minutes, page all Team leaders, stating no response from initial page.   if no response, then assume the SAR team is OOS, since no leadership is available, and don't page anyone else.  otherwise, follow the directions of the team leader in how to proceed.  It's not really complicated, just put everything down in writing, and hand it to the dispatch center, and tell them these are the proper policies, follow them or find another job. 

not really that hard, esp if your boss is also their boss.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jun 24, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> This seems to be the crux of the problem.  there are no written protocols.  everything is verbal or dispatcher's discretion.  simple fix, write the damn protocols!!!!
> 
> not really that hard, esp if your boss is also their boss.



Agreed that written protocols are needed.  Disagree when you say, "not hard".  Now we are entering the political/legal arena.  That is the problem.  I can write whatever I want... doesn't mean I can get anyone in the 10+ agencies to come to a resilution and agree to put their sig on any document when egos from all the type A folks are at issue.  Changing dispatch protocols is easier since it is all internal with in the Sheriff's Office.  Doing so can only come after dealing with the various agencies views on jurisdiction.  Heck, we are already encountering some resistance within the Team from people who believe it will be a losing battle; "that is just how SAR is..."  A BS response from people that claim to be dedicated to helping others, but one of many such attitudes that are likely to create problems in any process.


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## DrParasite (Jun 24, 2010)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> That is the problem.  I can write whatever I want... doesn't mean I can get anyone in the 10+ agencies to come to a resilution and agree to put their sig on any document when egos from all the type A folks are at issue.  Changing dispatch protocols is easier since it is all internal with in the Sheriff's Office.  Doing so can only come after dealing with the various agencies views on jurisdiction.


oh, I see.  you need 10+ agencies to approve what happens with YOUR agency.  Makes sense.  

so I guess every time the fire dispatch protocol is changed, it needs YOUR signature? and every time the EMS dispatch protocol is changed, your approval is needed to correct?  and every time the PD changes their dispatch protocol, you are consulted, and if you object, then the changes fail.  Do I have that correct?  of course not, that is all absurd.  But think of it this way: does the sheriff need to consult with FD and EMS any time he wants to change dispatch protocol for his LEO units?  so why would S&R be any differently?

Search and Rescue is the responsibility of the Sheriff, by state law.  I believe you said that.  So where is the problem?  who cares what PD's policy is, or the FD's or EMS.  you aren't changing their protocol, you are CHANGING YOUR OWN.  If they want to amend their responses, great!  if they want to tell you to go f*ck off, great!  if the fire chief has an objection to YOUR protocols, ok, that's fair, make sure he knows that if he expects to have a say if what YOU do with your department, that anytime HE makes a change in HIS dispatch protocols, it will need YOUR approval.  Bet he backs down pretty quickly.

You can't make someone listen to you.  You won't have someone yield supervision of their troops to you without some really big backing.  And you can show up on a S&R scene, with all your troops, and all your equipment, and the other services will tell you to go f*ck yourself when you say "ok, I'm in charge now, I'm the expert you need to listen to me."

But after a while, when it's your S&R crews that rescue the original responders after they get lost, and bring them back to safety, they will realize "maybe we should be listening to these guys."

The Sheriff needs to take a stand, and tell everyone that no one is going to tell him how his is going to run his department (including the S&R team).  Just like no fire chief is going to want to be told how they are going to run their fire department.  and no EMS director is going to allow his operations to be dictated by an outsider.   

It all comes down to having the balls to say I am going to my MY department, in the best interest of MY county, regardless of what you think.

but that's just my 2 cents, and I never was good at playing politics.


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## JPINFV (Jun 24, 2010)

Except taking the strong arm approach tends to cause problems down the line. Just because they can doesn't mean they should take that approach.


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## DrParasite (Jun 24, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Except taking the strong arm approach tends to cause problems down the line. Just because they can doesn't mean they should take that approach.


I agree with you that it's not the way to make friends.  But you got state law on your side, and playing nice isn't working (because S&R is often not even dispatched to search and rescue jobs).

I have been a volunteer with or an employee of several volunteer EMS/Rescue Squads in my time.  I have also been friends with people on several others.

I have seen good leaders and bad leaders.  The good leaders were often stubborn, opinionated, and hated by people, because they did what they thought was right, even if it meant ruffling feathers.  They would listen to others, but at the end of the day, it was their call, and they made sure their directions were followed, otherwise there would be hell to pay.  Bad leaders were the ones who were always walking on eggshells, afraid to piss people off, and as such, they got walked on by everyone else, lets they offend someone.

A good leader does what's right for the organization, for the agency, and for the taxpayer/patient.  Some times you have to step on some toes to do what is right.  And after all, not one is saying anyone else has to change what they are doing, only what the S&R team's response protocols are.

after all, the sheriff doesn't say you can only send 2 engines and a truck to a structure fire, so why should a fire chief say when the S&R team should be sent?


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## MTEMTB (Jun 24, 2010)

Ok ignore the naysayers. I know about the "don't rock the boat" and "it can't be done" people. Go deaf when they get this way.

Have a sit down with your Sheriff one on one. Tell him what the group is seeing and express your concerns about SAR not being called for situations that they are expressively trained to do.
State your concern over those agencies that are coming in and trying to do what you are trained for and the possiblity of them killing the person(s) you are trained to save.

Also just a thought have the head of dispatching there also so it can be addressed about the dispatcher not paging SAR for the situations that they are needed for. 

Had a similar situation where our dispatch would page out the ambulance and other FF's into our area. Had a talk with our sheriff and after that the pages would then come to us. We do have one FF dept. that would not page us for any mutial aid so i ignore them.
Beware though some of these guys may try to do crap. That FF dept. will change radio channels on scene, not talk to us at all on a fire nor respond when called on the radio.

If you think someone will not get their nose out of joint because you are going in as "non hostile", someone will have their nose out of joint.

I wish you good luck. Stick to your guns and keep moving forward. In the long run you will be better off then when you started.


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## JPINFV (Jun 24, 2010)

There's a difference between "Don't rock the boat" and don't go "Damn the torpedo, full speed ahead."  Especially when it seems a lot of the problems are internal, considering that it's the SO that receives the initial 911 calls and the SO that dispatches SAR.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jun 24, 2010)

DrParasite, I think you misunderstood.  Internally we can do whatever we want as long as logic and jurisdiction is on our side.  i.e. we can, without involving FIRE, change and clariffy dispatch procedures within Sheriff's Office (with some effort).  That does nothing to change how FIRE views the execution of Rescue and their role on rescue calls.  Clarrifying that takes the involvement of all agencies.  Condider:  They are Fire/Rescue... We are Search and Rescue...  So they provide Fire Services... We provide Search Services... and we BOTH provide Rescue Services.  But there are dozens of rescue specialtys.  Who provides what?  Unwritten policy defined those roles.  But a written policy to redefine those roles need the input/approval of everyone; we all need to agree to follow it or else problems will continue.  For instance, the proper protocol for a Swiftwater Rescue should be:  Dispatch SAR immediately (the only swiftwater rescue trained, certifed, and equipped agency)...  Dispatch FIRE for First Response to secure the scene (prevent more victims) and to support SAR...  Dispatch EMS for obvious reasons...  Fire is in charge until SAR arrives, but they do not enter the warm or hot zones... when we arrive we take charge and utalize FIRE and EMS as is appropriate.  Make Sense?  It should to all involved parties, but this system is not firmly established in written procedure as it should be... and procedures are only as effective as the people following them.

JP, that is a big reason why I want outside (not clouded by being in the mix) opinions.  It is no secret that I have no great love for FIRE, Forest Service, and some LE Agencies.  Not to say I dislike the individual people of even hate them.  The are "brothers" for the same cause.  I respect them, but I disagree with them and resent some of the tings they do and don't do.  I do not want to create anymore clashing than is needed.  I want cooperation in the best interest of all involved, especially our patients and victims.  Maybe that is being unrealistic, but you have to try.

MTEMTB, agreed.  This is gonna be a process although it should not have to be.  It starts with the Team, then we get Sheriff support, then we tackle the other 11 Fire/Rescue Agencies in our county opeating out of 40 Stations (no lie on those number; it is widly accepted to be a broken system).  That is a lot of Chiefs and Captains to get on board and I would like to reduce the amount of "nose de-jointing".


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## mycrofft (Jun 24, 2010)

*...and then you get US!*

Law and SOP's ain't excremento unless enforced, and LE may have subrogated SAR to FD at some point or is unwilling to step up. LE is being tasked with animal control in many areas, too, and will not necessarily want SAR.
You need a lobbyist. And a busy fire season to keep em busy.


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## DrParasite (Jun 25, 2010)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> DrParasite, I think you misunderstood.  Internally we can do whatever we want as long as logic and jurisdiction is on our side.  i.e. we can, without involving FIRE, change and clariffy dispatch procedures within Sheriff's Office (with some effort).  That does nothing to change how FIRE views the execution of Rescue and their role on rescue calls.  Clarrifying that takes the involvement of all agencies.


I guess I did.

the first thing you need to change is dispatch, so you can be there.  it's a lot easier for you to tell the fire department that you are handling this if you are there with all your crew, with all your equipment, and you are right next to him on the scene ready to go.  that should be the FIRST thing.

changing attitudes on scene is a little different.  many FD's have problems with police officers running into burning buildings, protected by just their badges and guns, as they attempt to perform a rescue (instead of waiting until the FD gets there).  And before anyone asks, yes, nationwide, some LEOs are no longer with us, others had to be rescued by the FD when they got trapped, and others were injured/out on disability after sustaining injuries as a result.   The reason I bring this example up is because it demonstrates that you aren't going to change people's opinions when it comes to making a rescue by using logic.  There are FF/LEOs who won't do CPR on a 70 year old man, but if it's a 1 year old not breathing, they will beat you to the scene and be on the way to the hospital in the patrol car before you even get dispatched.  again, it comes down to that "hero tunnel vision"

Until someone gets lost/hurt/heaven forbid killed, they will still try to do something, and make a rescue.  they might lack the training and equipment to do it safely, but it's very hard to stand by and do nothing.

but once you are on scene with them, with your equipment, if they do something stupid and you have to rescue their crews, well, maybe then they will see the light.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jun 25, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> I guess I did.
> 
> the first thing you need to change is dispatch, so you can be there.  it's a lot easier for you to tell the fire department that you are handling this if you are there with all your crew, with all your equipment, and you are right next to him on the scene ready to go.  that should be the FIRST thing.
> 
> ...



Agreed 100%.

Well defined policies and procedures are must be defined that rapidly puts the appropriate resources into the proper position to do what they do best.

The question is, as we move forward:  Do we tackle the problme first with Dispatch and then with the other agencies?  Do we hammer out an Response Operating Plan with the other agencies first?  Or do we work the problem from both angles at the same time.

Based on your response, I take it you believe that dispatch is the first priority?  I was approaching it from the other angle, deal with FIRE and then dispatch, but I beleive your approach might make more logistical sense.  Several of us are already setting plans into motion and will be having a Team Leader Meetng to discuss things in depth, and your input will be considered... thanx.


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## DrParasite (Jun 25, 2010)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> Based on your response, I take it you believe that dispatch is the first priority?  I was approaching it from the other angle, deal with FIRE and then dispatch, but I beleive your approach might make more logistical sense.  Several of us are already setting plans into motion and will be having a Team Leader Meetng to discuss things in depth, and your input will be considered... thanx.


fight one battle at a time.  with dispatch, all you need to do is get the response protocol changed.  with the FD, you need to change egos, points of view, and get people to do something they don't want to do.  what's easier?

anything else I can help you with, send me an IM on AIM.


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## medic417 (Jun 25, 2010)

Just monitor radios and automatically activate yourselves.  If you are an official organization should be no problem.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jun 26, 2010)

medic417 said:


> Just monitor radios and automatically activate yourselves.  If you are an official organization should be no problem.



Being on call 24/7 I tend to keep my radio handy on weekends and holidays... and when I hear somthing happening that sound SARish...  I do self dispatch, no l&s, but I start driving either toward the cache or toward the call code 2...  I am not proud of it, but that reaction saves me 10-30 minutes on response...  and time is life...  :blush:


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## Trayos (Jun 26, 2010)

Do you have a specialized dispatch system in place already? Or do you get handed calls from the regular system that oversees your district?


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