# D.C. Fire Department Left Out



## Jon (May 13, 2005)

D.C. Fire Department Left Out of Capitol Hill Airplane Incident



Updated: 05-13-2005 09:49:49 AM
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Firehouse.Com News


As an airplane with unknown intentions flew toward the U.S. Capitol and White House Wednesday, many of the cities' first responders were left to guess what was going on as they watched office workers running for their lives. 

First responders in Washington, D.C. only found out that an airplane had violated restricted air space around the Capitol and White House, potentially posing a threat to the city, from local media or phone calls from friends. 

The Associated Press reported that D.C. Mayor Anthony Williams said city officials weren't told about the threat until the all-clear was sounded, more than 10 minutes after the White House and Capitol were evacuated. A city government building that houses the mayoral and District of Columbia Council offices, located two blocks from the White House, was not evacuated according to AP. 

A D.C. firefighter told Firehouse.Com News that firefighters knew nothing about the potential terrorist attack as they rode their truck down city streets while watching F-16 jets flying overhead. On a routine maintenance trip, the jets could be seen out of the windows of their truck. It was not until they returned to the station that they found out by watching television what was going on. The fire station never received any sort of alert. 

District of Columbia Fire and Emergency Medical Services Department PIO Specialist Alan Etter said he was at work when the noise of jet engines rocked his office. He called Special Operations Chief Larry Schultz, and then Assistant Fire Chief for Operations James Martin, neither of whom knew of anything special happening. While watching CNN five minutes later, he saw the evacuations going on and again contacted Chief Martin who had just heard of the incident on WTOP Radio. 


Clicky


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## TTLWHKR (May 13, 2005)

Maybe they should go back to scaring the living hell out of people with friendly, loud, ear piercing.. air raid sirens.


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## Jon (May 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by TTLWHKR_@May 13 2005, 12:32 PM
> * Maybe they should go back to scaring the living hell out of people with friendly, loud, ear piercing.. air raid sirens. *


 My town still has one.... mounted on the firehouse....


Jon


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## Chimpie (May 13, 2005)

What did the FD want?  To be dispatched?  To what?  

The only thing I can think of is that dispatch should have known what was going and maybe an informational page should have gone out over the radios, but, IMO, not knowing a darn thing about DC or their SOPs, should have stayed in station until something happened.


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## Jon (May 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Chimpie_@May 13 2005, 12:45 PM
> * What did the FD want?  To be dispatched?  To what?
> 
> The only thing I can think of is that dispatch should have known what was going and maybe an informational page should have gone out over the radios, but, IMO, not knowing a darn thing about DC or their SOPs, should have stayed in station until something happened. *


 yeah... that sounds like what they wanted... it sounds like the city only knew what the mass media was reporting. 

Gee... If I was in charge, start getting extra resources lined up... Maybe a partial recall? Institute a staging plan? set up a command center somewhere remote? Get command level staff ready to respond?

stage nearby resources AWAY from obvious targets (White House, Capitol, Pentagon, Mall)

I don't think the PD knew either.. they probably wanted to do the same.

Luckly nothing happened, so this was a chance to see what went right/wrong without anyone having to die.

Jon


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## Chimpie (May 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by MedicStudentJon_@May 13 2005, 10:53 AM
> * Gee... If I was in charge, start getting extra resources lined up... Maybe a partial recall? Institute a staging plan? set up a command center somewhere remote? Get command level staff ready to respond? *


 Well that's def. good thinking, but why waste time sending people here and there when you do know where it's going to hit?

Why waste setting up a command center if the plane could just smash into the ground killing only the pilot?

Same example above for the recall?


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## Chimpie (May 13, 2005)

And do you really want several huge-arse pieces of apparatus running around the streets that already are filled with people running in every direction?


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## Jon (May 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Chimpie+May 13 2005, 12:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (Chimpie @ May 13 2005, 12:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-MedicStudentJon_@May 13 2005, 10:53 AM
> * Gee... If I was in charge, start getting extra resources lined up... Maybe a partial recall? Institute a staging plan? set up a command center somewhere remote? Get command level staff ready to respond? *


Well that's def. good thinking, but why waste time sending people here and there when you do know where it's going to hit?

Why waste setting up a command center if the plane could just smash into the ground killing only the pilot?

Same example above for the recall? [/b][/quote]
 Yeah... but worst case...it was a good drill.....


Maybe not a "recall" but at least do the "no, you can't leave yet" routine

Getting a comand center set up would be a good idea, and getting the rigs out of harms way would be equally good...


Jon


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## Chimpie (May 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by MedicStudentJon_@May 13 2005, 11:01 AM
> * and getting the rigs out of harms way would be equally good... *


 We'll just have to disagree on this one.  There is a reason why stations are where they are and why they are built with materials they are built with.


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## TTLWHKR (May 13, 2005)

Get in the fallout shelter... 

Didn't they see Independence Day?


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## Firechic (May 13, 2005)

Yes, they could have remained in the station until something happened, but wouldn't it be a good thing to at least have a "heads up" that something MAY happen. That way, at least, they could have started to think about a possible situation and be a little more prepared mentally rather than jump started when the tones went off. I'm sure they have SOPs and protocols in place; however, when a situation like that occurs - it just would have been plain nice to know. What's the harm in giving a few minutes prep time to the people who will ultimately deal with and possibly die in an event like that.   Just give them some notice - That's what I would prefer.


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## Chimpie (May 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Firechic_@May 13 2005, 12:41 PM
> * Yes, they could have remained in the station until something happened, but wouldn't it be a good thing to at least have a "heads up" that something MAY happen. That way, at least, they could have started to think about a possible situation and be a little more prepared mentally rather than jump started when the tones went off. I'm sure they have SOPs and protocols in place; however, when a situation like that occurs - it just would have been plain nice to know. What's the harm in giving a few minutes prep time to the people who will ultimately deal with and possibly die in an event like that.   Just give them some notice - That's what I would prefer.   *


 Agree 100%. That's why I questioned whether dispatch knew what was going on or not.  If so, they could have at least done an informational page across the radios.  Or at least do a page with a "Code White" or something to mean, "Start puckering up.  Something may happen and we don't know where, but something may happen."

 :lol:


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## ma2va92 (May 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Chimpie_@May 13 2005, 12:45 PM
> *
> about DC or their SOPs, should have stayed in station until something happened. *


 Washington DC with SOP's .. sounds a bit weird.. I think they are written in pencil.. to add or make changes as they need....


There are many time we (volly  rs) are toned for stand by your station... I would think that is all they would have needed to do.. being there stations a always ready to go... a simple toning .. to be ready to respond... For a airplane type responce.... then then know what just not were... ... after a few min's tone.. all station can stand down..... it's really simple.. but being it's the goverment it can become diffacult......to many forms to request toning....


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## Phridae (May 14, 2005)

Thats crap. They should have been told what was going on.

I mean, these are the people that you're going to count on if something does happen, and they're letting them come in blind. Thats just supid.


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## Luno (May 14, 2005)

The USSS has taken over all Emergency response for the white house, so notifying them was completely unnecessary, this is just more political fallout since they were shown the door with elevated security.


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## Jon (May 15, 2005)

The white house isn't the only target....Capitol, Smithsonian..... some is USSS, some is Capitol PD, some is DC.... I stand by the fact that getting the FD rolling into "safe" staging areas, instead of in stations by the Mall or Gov't bldgs.....


Jon


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## Luno (May 15, 2005)

Okay, Jon, the Smithsonian isn't a high value target, some is Capitol PD, once again, no longer in DC jurisdiction, DC Fire was just upset about being taken out of the loop.  They've been upset about that since it happened.  Maybe they should of been more proactive on the side of National Security, with TS-SCI investigations on all people designated to respond to the White House, instead of being boxed out of their "marquis" response area.  FD doesn't respond, and they're just upset about just having the other crackheads in DC being their primary response area.


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## ECC (May 15, 2005)

Luno is correct DCFD E3 has been taken off of the White House run card, a job they have done proudly and well for more than 100 years. Thank God LEO's with no experience and minimal training and even less interest will be doing any firefighting @ 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.  

Wonder what they are gonna do if they need to 'strike the second'?


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## shorthairedpunk (May 15, 2005)

FD has no need to be informed of this, it was a military, not a civil matter.

There would have been no way to increase response times, only thing that would have been increased is risk to public safety by cowboy firemen speedin all around a congested city thinking that tey have the ability to assess risk factors that they dont have the resources to gather information on.

If it had gone boom, they woud have been dispatched, just as they would have for a bomb, or a transformer explosion.

Who all needs to be informed? FD, PD, Gangleaders, churchgroups, schools, bums on the street? nobody that is not directly involved need be informed of anything until those who are involved know the truth.


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## Jon (May 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Luno_@May 15 2005, 08:34 PM
> * Okay, Jon, the Smithsonian isn't a high value target, some is Capitol PD, once again, no longer in DC jurisdiction, DC Fire was just upset about being taken out of the loop.  They've been upset about that since it happened.  Maybe they should of been more proactive on the side of National Security, with TS-SCI investigations on all people designated to respond to the White House, instead of being boxed out of their "marquis" response area.  FD doesn't respond, and they're just upset about just having the other crackheads in DC being their primary response area. *


 Yes, the Smithsonian isn't a high value target in terms of actually affecting our government, but someone blowing themselves up in front of Air and Space would scare the sh*t out of the american people in general.

Anywhoo...a little off topic....

Back on topic...

DCFD seems pissed that something happened in their sandbox and noone bothered to let them in on the fun.

but at the VERY least, what would be wrong with getting the PD and FD bosses into some sort of unified command center??


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## Luno (May 16, 2005)

It all falls under that noose we call National Security.  Not that I necessarily agree with it, but that's just how it is.


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## Luno (May 16, 2005)

And Jon, while I agree with you that it would be shocking, I don't think that AQ would waste a perfectly good jihadi on a less than optimal target.  The stakes are too high, they're looking for maximum gain for every attack.  Even though we all have our personal opinions about their motivation, it would be foolish to underestimate the opposition as "crazy" they are just as strategically minded as our own leaders.  This isn't a war with barbarians, they are just as adept as we are, just a different set of weapons.


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## Chimpie (May 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by shorthairedpunk_@May 15 2005, 08:47 PM
> * FD has no need to be informed of this, it was a military, not a civil matter. *


 I completely disagree with this statement.

While I believe should have been done, at a very minimum, is at least let someone in "central dispatch" know about what was going on.  That way units could check in to see what was going on or they could have sent it out to via text page or to to officer's MDTs.


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## rescuecpt (May 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Chimpie+May 16 2005, 11:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (Chimpie @ May 16 2005, 11:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-shorthairedpunk_@May 15 2005, 08:47 PM
> * FD has no need to be informed of this, it was a military, not a civil matter. *


I completely disagree with this statement.

While I believe should have been done, at a very minimum, is at least let someone in "central dispatch" know about what was going on.  That way units could check in to see what was going on or they could have sent it out to via text page or to to officer's MDTs. [/b][/quote]
 I agree... recalls are hard to do, at least letting central know that they might possibly need to recall could put them in a much better position in case they actually have to.

Shorthairedpunk, do you also think that a standby for a violence in progress is a bad idea?  Around here, when PD gets a violence in progress, they notify us and we standby at HQ.  But, that's really a domestic/PD matter at that point, so why bother?  Why alert the ambulance while the violence is still in progress, why not just wait until the cops settle the situation, then start paging for a crew?  Oh, right... because every second counts.  Or something like that, at least, that's what I keep hearing, lol.


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## TTLWHKR (May 16, 2005)

Fire Department shouldn't be involved? It's a military thing?

Where the hell were you on 9/11?

They don't pick up the phone and call a military base when a plane crashes into a building.. They call the Fire Department. They have the equipment necessary to handle the fires and the injuries. 

Maybe some advanced warning would make all that equipment effective, don't you think? 

Suppose someone is coming in to drop a dirty bomb? Well, if you wait to put your gas mask on, why bother?

But if you know ahead of time, you can be suited up, have your NBC mask and gear on..and be ready to help.

"Advanced Warning"

It'd be like waiting till after you have an accident and slam into the dash; then put the seat belt on.


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## Luno (May 16, 2005)

Chimpie, I'm curious to why you disagree, I think you place a valid point, if DC were still responding to 1600 Penn.  Fortunately, or otherwise they aren't, while I can see getting upset about not receiving a courtesy call about something in their jurisdiction, what we're comparing here is apples and oranges.  It would be like alerting the Seattle FD when there is a fire in Portland, OR.  Completely out of their response area, and their help isn't needed, or in this case, maybe wanted, no matter the incident.  Personal feelings set aside, the USSS isn't a couple of LEOs with first responder patches.  They have some of the best training in the world, and yes, that includes medical and fire.  When they brought emergency response in house, I'm sure it wasn't a light decision, and they are ready for whatever may happen.  They have people dreaming up scenarios to test them against.  But to each their own, I'm sure I have opinions that you wouldn't agree with either, and this is just an opinion.


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## Chimpie (May 16, 2005)

Perfect example: My experience w/ Toyota.

At Toyota we did all the security, fire, ems, executive protection when needed, blah blah blah.  As part of our duties we did the firefighting for the plant.  In addition to hose stations and extinguishers we had one pumper, one rescue and a brush truck.

Toyota had small fires: semi-trucks coming in with the brakes on fire, something in one of the pits catching on fire, etc.  We'd respond, put it out, go back to our regular duties.  But if a building caught fire, and I mean the building, not a trash can inside, we'd probably notify county of what was going on just in case we needed one of the townships to respond to assist (mutual aid).

Same thing here.  Now I don't know if the USSS has any apparatus at their disposal, but you'd think with an in-bound airplane the USSS dispatch/command center would notify the DC dispatch/command center (whatever they call it out there).  And if they don't have any apparatus that would be an even more reason to notify DC.

Again, just my thoughts, coming from someone who doesn't know a lick about DC.


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## rescuecpt (May 16, 2005)

Heck, on 9/11 FDNY called in FD's from Long Island (including mine) to assist in the outlying areas - some companies didn't even have the same couplings for the hydrants, so they got stuck covering the island while the big boys  )) got to play in the 5 boroughs.


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## Jon (May 16, 2005)

What about the Capital? What about the Washington/Lincoln/Jefferson Monument(s)?

Yes, they aren't first due on 1600 Pennsylvaina Ave, but as Chimp said, I'm sure they don't have 3 or 4 or 10 full box alarms staffed, in stations, waiting for the building to be hit with a large plane.....

I'm sorry, Dispatch should have gotten a heads-up. The chiefs and firefighters should have been alerted. They shouldn't hear about a possible imminant large-scale disaster from the local networks and CNN.


Jon


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## Jon (May 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by rescuecpt_@May 16 2005, 03:44 PM
> * Heck, on 9/11 FDNY called in FD's from Long Island (including mine) to assist in the outlying areas - some companies didn't even have the same couplings for the hydrants, so they got stuck covering the island while the big boys  )) got to play in the 5 boroughs. *


 I always wonder what would happen if we were called to cover the city of philly. We would be able to make the hydrant connection work, but how do we turn on the hydrant????

Same thing even closer to home.. not everywhere in the county is the same style hydrant wrench. Valve-wise we run 5" stortz hose, with 5" NST (6 maybe... not 100% sure) on the hydrants. Oh, and most of our hydrants are 3" jones snaps on the side, but we have a few with NST.... ok... I'm lost on the wrong side of the engine bay... HELP!!!!



Jon


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## ECC (May 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by MedicStudentJon+May 16 2005, 06:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (MedicStudentJon @ May 16 2005, 06:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-rescuecpt_@May 16 2005, 03:44 PM
> * Heck, on 9/11 FDNY called in FD's from Long Island (including mine) to assist in the outlying areas - some companies didn't even have the same couplings for the hydrants, so they got stuck covering the island while the big boys )) got to play in the 5 boroughs. *


I always wonder what would happen if we were called to cover the city of philly. We would be able to make the hydrant connection work, but how do we turn on the hydrant????

Same thing even closer to home.. not everywhere in the county is the same style hydrant wrench. Valve-wise we run 5" stortz hose, with 5" NST (6 maybe... not 100% sure) on the hydrants. Oh, and most of our hydrants are 3" jones snaps on the side, but we have a few with NST.... ok... I'm lost on the wrong side of the engine bay... HELP!!!!



Jon [/b][/quote]
 Should not have a problem with the hydrant wrench...you CAN make it work. Probelm is with the size and type of couplings. There are certain types of threads that will either accept the male or the female will will work OK with but not both.

Your side of the bay is over there...it is a left hand lead...do not take your hand off the wall until you are safely on your side!


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## Jon (May 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ECC+May 16 2005, 09:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (ECC @ May 16 2005, 09:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Should not have a problem with the hydrant wrench...you CAN make it work. Probelm is with the size and type of couplings. There are certain types of threads that will either accept the male or the female will will work OK with but not both.

Your side of the bay is over there...it is a left hand lead...do not take your hand off the wall until you are safely on your side!  [/b][/quote]
 Ok.... what about the funny 3-sided ones that are sunk into the top - we have 5-sided ones


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## ECC (May 16, 2005)

Got a pipe wrench in your highrise kit? in the Engineer's compartment?


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## Luno (May 17, 2005)

Jon, let's just say, they're prepared for whatever hits that building.  When they alienated DC Fire, they had to make sure they were.


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## ECC (May 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Luno_@May 17 2005, 01:06 AM
> * Jon, let's just say, they're prepared for whatever hits that building.  When they alienated DC Fire, they had to make sure they were. *


 Do you really think they are?

They do not have enough suppression apparatus anywhere near enough to help if the fire gets out of hand (greater than a first alarm). Also if a plane into the White House developed more than a handful of patients, they would have to look to DCFD/EMS for help. 

Alienating a major player anywhere is poor form, and unnecessary.


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