# How much of a disadvantage will I be at?



## FuManChu (Jun 14, 2013)

I am finishing up my EMT-B school right now, will be done in two weeks. Things have been great, been studying hard and doing great on tests and skills. Once I am done I hope to get a BLS job. 

I want to go to Paramedic school next january if I can. The school I want to go to doesn't require an Anatomy and Physiology class, they teach it as part of the paramedic curriculum in the first few weeks. 

My question is, how much of a disadvantage will I be not taking a semester long A&P, chemistry and biology class? 

I am in college right now, I have finished up all my general education for my fire technology degree no problem. I have maintained an ok GPA throughout my two years, cumulative GPA of 3.5, and I have taken college level statistics/math with somewhat difficulty, but I managed to work through it and get a B, had an A all semester, and then the final brought me down. 

So the studying and school work mentality is fresh with me, the only thing is, I haven't taken any chem, a&p or bio. 

I know Paramedic school is going to consume my life, and I plan on studying harder than I ever have before, but will I be doing a lot of damage not having the classes behind me?

I plan brushing up on some basics of Biology on khan academy since I haven't taken Bio since high school, and I plan on learning some basics online of A&P and chem, but not taking the actual class. I am taking a medical terminology class this coming fall, I thought it would help.

Just any advice and insight would be appreciated, 
Thanks,
Anthony


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jun 14, 2013)

A&P1 was a pre-rec for my Paramedic program, but I am well aware that is not the case nation wide. You will probably do fine in the Paramedic class with  its own integrated A&P. Not according to me, but according the minimum national standards at present time. Will you be at a disadvantage as a Paramedic with out it? In my opinion, Absolutely. Its noble your completing a degree in a state which does not require it, and if your career goal is the fire service, you will probably do fine. Just some food for thought, I always encourage every fellow Paramedic to complete a higher degree and the basic sciences, including A&P. If your career goal is the fire service with your fire technology degree, and your using the Paramedic cert as resume fluff, don't sweat it. If you want to peruse a career in EMS and help advance/advocate Paramedcine I would say just the opposite.


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## FuManChu (Jun 14, 2013)

My ultimate goal is to get on with a fire department as a Fire-medic, but none the less I do want to be a great knowledgeable medic. 

After my associates in fire technology, I plan on getting my bachelors from a school here in California which offers an accredited fire program. I plan on taking classes as long as I can.
I don't plan on stopping my education. 

So I wouldn't be at a great disadvantage? 

Its not like I don't plan on taking those courses at some point, I just don't think I will before paramedic school.


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## Christopher (Jun 14, 2013)

Pappaly said:


> My ultimate goal is to get on with a fire department as a Fire-medic, but none the less I do want to be a great knowledgeable medic.
> 
> After my associates in fire technology, I plan on getting my bachelors from a school here in California which offers an accredited fire program. I plan on taking classes as long as I can.
> I don't plan on stopping my education.
> ...



If you're not looking to be a professional paramedic then the A&P contained in the paramedic course is sufficient for the certification. The type taught in-class is typically not sufficient to perform the job in the long run unfortunately.

You will eventually want real A&P if you plan on practicing as a paramedic to its fullest.


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## FuManChu (Jun 14, 2013)

Thanks Christopher. 
I don't just want to get my certification, I do want to be knowledgable. 
Thanks for the info, I will take a college level A&P at some point so I can become a very proficient Paramedic.


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## Handsome Robb (Jun 15, 2013)

For what it's worth I only had high school level sciences and a college bio course and was the valedictorian of my medic class. 

Our A&P section was distributed throughout the course. They claimed the same hours as a college A&P class. we also used the same book and my homework was always close to my friends at the CC or university it was just very condensed. My first homework assignment in medic school was to read chapters 1-6 in our A&P book then had two or three solid days of lecture then had an exam. 

It wasn't easy and having the knowledge base before I got there would have made it much easier but it wasn't the end of the world not having it.

Good luck! This site helped me a ton during school. There are a lot of great resources here between the members, threads and links:


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## teedubbyaw (Jun 15, 2013)

A&P was also a pre req for my program, but I had taken it about 2 years ago. To be honest, I pretty much forgot 99% of that class. 

I'm a second semester student now and have not had much trouble with that part. Our instructors are good at teaching it, and help is always available. 

If you can take it, great, but if not, I don't think it would be a huge issue.


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## FuManChu (Jun 15, 2013)

Thanks for the input Robb and Teedubbyaw. 

the paramedic school I plan on attending is the same school I am finishing up my EMT-B class currently. The instructors who run the EMT class run the Paramedic class as well, and they are great instructors. So I know I will be in good hands.


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## Wheel (Jun 15, 2013)

Pappaly said:


> Thanks for the input Robb and Teedubbyaw.
> 
> the paramedic school I plan on attending is the same school I am finishing up my EMT-B class currently. The instructors who run the EMT class run the Paramedic class as well, and they are great instructors. So I know I will be in good hands.



Good luck!


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## FuManChu (Jun 16, 2013)

Thanks Wheel!
This weekend my class finished up National Registry Skills testing. 

Passed all my skills. I failed on the spinal immobilization of a seated patient (using the KED), but I passed on the retest of it, so I passed all my National Registry skills. I was nervous running through my KED skill, and I did everything great, except once I was all done, it was on the patient slightly crooked, so my instructor failed me for it. During my retest I made sure to take my time, and I passed fine with the KED on perfectly. 

Next step is skills testing for the Class, and Class written final. After that, go for the national registry computer exam, and look for work!


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## hogwiley (Jun 16, 2013)

There are different levels of A&P, and the level of detail can vary a lot depending on what class you take. Most community college Paramedic programs from what I've seen require a one semester or A&P essentials class. Going beyond that probably wouldn't make much difference in Paramedic school. 

I took a 2 semester A&P class and it definitely helped a LOT having taken chemistry and biology the semester prior. My professor expected us to know and understand some fairly complicated subjects like the Krebs cycle and wouldn't waste time on it in class, but it was on the exams. Having said that, I was surprised to find that not a single person in my class was going on to Paramedic school. They were all going for a BSN, Pre med, physical therapists, RT or PA, etc. One of the students had been a medic and he said aside from the cardiovascular system, most of it was overkill for Paramedic school.


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## jefftherealmccoy (Jun 17, 2013)

I would say a lot of the stuff in A&P is overkill for passing medic school.  But it will make it a whole lot easier if you can get it in before you start.  A&P was the first course in college i ever took.  they let potential medic students bypass the biology pre-req so they could fast track into applying for medic school.  BIG mistake.  There was so much in A&P that i had never heard of and had to study 3 hours every day after class to keep up.  So if you can, take biology first.  
That being said, the knowledge base I had from A&P was very nice to have while in medic school.  Especially in the cardiology.  I understood a lot of WHY we were treating pts a certain way.


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## Arovetli (Jun 17, 2013)

It's a shame anyone dares to present themselves as a competent professional healthcare provider without at least a rudimentary basic science foundation.

Nothing in intro A&P is overkill.
The courses are actually pretty well designed, and the college level texts usually include chapters on elementary molecular/cell, chemistry/basic organic nomenclature, Biochem and micro.

You need all of this, at least a familiarity.

It's fools in high places that have tricked you otherwise.

Whether by a formal class or hours spent googling, learn this stuff.


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## chaz90 (Jun 17, 2013)

jefftherealmccoy said:


> I would say a lot of the stuff in A&P is overkill for passing medic school.  But it will make it a whole lot easier if you can get it in before you start.  A&P was the first course in college i ever took.  they let potential medic students bypass the biology pre-req so they could fast track into applying for medic school.  BIG mistake.  There was so much in A&P that i had never heard of and had to study 3 hours every day after class to keep up.  So if you can, take biology first.
> That being said, the knowledge base I had from A&P was very nice to have while in medic school.  Especially in the cardiology.  I understood a lot of WHY we were treating pts a certain way.



The big thing is that passing medic school should not be the ultimate goal. Becoming the best provider possible is what we should strive towards, and getting through school is just the beginning of that road. Taking comprehensive courses in anatomy and physiology (with biology and chemistry pre-reqs) should be required for all paramedic programs. We're allowing people to go out on the street with drugs that alter the cardiac cycle without understanding what that cycle is all about. We train monkey medics to see tombstones in II, III, and aVF and know that means "Inferior STEMI," yet they couldn't tell you why the ST segment elevates in areas of infarction. Learning medicine should be a series of building blocks, not throwing the end treatment at someone and hoping it works.

I'm not arguing with your post by the way, just agreeing with parts that you said and expanding on it.


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## jefftherealmccoy (Jun 17, 2013)

Arovetli said:


> It's a shame anyone dares to present themselves as a competent professional healthcare provider without at least a rudimentary basic science foundation.
> 
> Nothing in intro A&P is overkill.
> The courses are actually pretty well designed, and the college level texts usually include chapters on elementary molecular/cell, chemistry/basic organic nomenclature, Biochem and micro.
> ...



Excuse my post-

I didn't mean in the slightest that A&P are unnecessary for being a competent medic.  I mean quite the opposite.   All I meant to say was that a lot of A&P stuff is overkill for PASSING medic school- As far as what is required for the national registry.  In case he wanted to go into paramedic school and take A&P later.


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## Arovetli (Jun 17, 2013)

jefftherealmccoy said:


> Excuse my post-
> 
> I didn't mean in the slightest that A&P are unnecessary for being a competent medic.  I mean quite the opposite.   All I meant to say was that a lot of A&P stuff is overkill for PASSING medic school- As far as what is required for the national registry.  In case he wanted to go into paramedic school and take A&P later.



No, that wasn't directed at you, sorry it came across that way. It was just a general shotgun blast in all directions.


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## FuManChu (Jun 18, 2013)

By no means do I want to be a medic who just gets by. If I cannot take A&P now, I plan on taking it later. I understand the importance of why a medic should have a good foundation in anatomy, physio and even chemistry.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jun 18, 2013)

I know in Oregon it is  requirement and a pre-rec for Paramedics. It was also the same in Washington state at the programs I looked at in 2005 when shopping around. However it may have been school to school policy there, not sure. A few years back all Oregon medics where required to take A&P 1, 2, and 3 as part of the required AAS degree.


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## DesertMedic66 (Jun 18, 2013)

At the medic school I'm attending A&P with a lab and lecture section are a prerequisite to put in an application. 

Due to the A&P classes filling up really quickly the medic school has been thinking about taking A&P out from a prerequisite and placing it as a core-requisite class (have to take along with the medic class). They would have a normal A&P class that only medic students could get into that would meet 1-2 days a week along with the 3-4 days a week of medic school. Not too sure on how that would actually work out.


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## MrJones (Jun 18, 2013)

I had to take a semester of anatomy, a semester of physiology and a semester of pathophysiology.

Too much fun.


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## Arovetli (Jun 18, 2013)

In the states, pre/co reqs for paramedic should at least be A&P 1&2, Chem 1, Bio 1 and College Algebra and Composition 1 or sufficient scores on a placement exam for exemption.

I hope this comes to fruition, leaving EMT/AEMT as certificates to keep the fire folks happy


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jun 18, 2013)

Arovetli said:


> In the states, pre/co reqs for paramedic should at least be A&P 1&2, Chem 1, Bio 1 and College Algebra and Composition 1 or sufficient scores on a placement exam for exemption.


What you just described is known as an Associates degree ;-) But, yes we should require such a thing.


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## Arovetli (Jun 18, 2013)

ExpatMedic0 said:


> What you just described is known as an Associates degree ;-) But, yes we should require such a thing.



An associates degree is also known as an archaic relic in American education that bears rapidly increasing insignificant academic weight.

I mean, I'm glad to see some progress but seriously, it's 2013.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jun 18, 2013)

yes but even RT and RN's are still plentiful with associates degrees. In fact, in a recent discussion on this forum we found more RN's hold ADN's than BSN's. This was according to nation wide quantitative data we looked at.
What I don't get is... a Paramedic program is over a years worth of college credit (sometimes more) you add EMT classes on top of that and all you have left is the community college basic skills requirements. These vary from state to state, but its normally another 9 months of very cheap education which can partially be completed online. Why not? Why do people fight this idea so much?


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## Arovetli (Jun 18, 2013)

ExpatMedic0 said:


> yes but even RT and RN's are still plentiful with associates degrees. In fact, in a recent discussion on this forum we found more RN's hold ADN's than BSN's. This was according to nation wide quantitative data we looked at.
> What I don't get is... a Paramedic program is over a years worth of college credit (sometimes more) you add EMT classes on top of that and all you have left is the community college basic skills requirements. These vary from state to state, but its normally another 9 months of very cheap education which can partially be completed online. Why not? Why do people fight this idea so much?



I think, or at least Im guessing, that some of the pushback comes from fire or hospital oriented programs  as they want quicker training pathways.

Yes to RN/RRT but they both have b.s. linkages and "residencies" (as you know) and there are many hospitals that are only employing B.S.N.'s.

It would be so EMS of us to finally get our progressive on an adopt an entry level standard of associates education and then over the next 40 years still be the only healthcare professional getting trained at the community college.

There is an utter dearth of qualified students for EMS, as many smart and motivated ones are driven to other programs. The problem is yes, we know we need pre reqs or an entrance exam, but that weeds out students and generated less income for the school. It's unfortunate, but that's life. Until reimbursements and working conditions improve, a rigor should be added to the back end of education in the form of exit exams and registry. That way only the best get through and all the tuition dollars the school could want are captured, so the college president can plant more shrubs.

You are correct, by the time someone progresses through the technical education requirements of paramedic, they have collected a good bit of college. Only thing is, it's lower division credit. And it's at a community college, which is not exactly held to be the blazing bastion of higher education.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jun 18, 2013)

Arovetli said:


> You are correct, by the time someone progresses through the technical education requirements of paramedic, they have collected a good bit of college. Only thing is, it's lower division credit. And it's at a community college, which is not exactly held to be the blazing bastion of higher education.



It is indeed community college, but on the majority of community college transcripts it specifies "level of education: undergraduate" because it transfers to most universities. Many people decide to save a few bucks by completing some the gen ed at community college for this reason.

Its just a real shame, there are some very bright people in EMS. In fact, its absolutely amazing how much knowledge a good paramedic may have over the years, simply through personal interdisciplinary study, work experience, and review. The FP-C exam demonstrates this for example. Also, just look at some of the post on this forum. We have so much potential in a lot of our people. 
 There are also a lot of knuckle heads and "meat head medicine" guys/gals, maybe even more than the others I speak of. I just wish we could start to move things a long a little bit faster in EMS, for everyone's sake.


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## Arovetli (Jun 18, 2013)

ExpatMedic0 said:


> It is indeed community college, but on the majority of community college transcripts it specifies "level of education: undergraduate" because it transfers to most universities. Many people decide to save a few bucks by completing some the gen ed at community college for this reason.
> 
> Its just a real shame, there are some very bright people in EMS. In fact, its absolutely amazing how much knowledge a good paramedic may have over the years, simply through personal interdisciplinary study, work experience, and review. The FP-C exam demonstrates this for example. Also, just look at some of the post on this forum. We have so much potential in a lot of our people.
> There are also a lot of knuckle heads and "meat head medicine" guys/gals, maybe even more than the others I speak of. I just wish we could start to move things a long a little bit faster in EMS, for everyone's sake.



im with you, tuition costs are incredible. Yes, gen ed transfers, and it is lower division undergraduate credit. The problem there is no matter how much time you play in the lower division sandbox, you are still going to have to complete ~2 years of upper division courses to graduate with a Bachelor's.

A problem with present and past bachelors EMS programs is that they are, well, useless.

They don't presently prepare you or qualify you for much of anything at all, and especially for zero things outside of EMS. For management, you are better off with a degree from the business program, for science you are better off with a science degree, and for public health you are better off with that.

A way to rectify this is to adopt a method similar to BSN linkages where some of the lower division credit may be translated to satisfy some upper division credit, and give 300/400 level credit for additional clinical rotations, ACLS, PALS, CCEMTP, AMLS, PEC, ASLS, FPC/CCP exam, Difficult airway, TCCC and all the other established alphabet courses as well as some instructor certs. Throw in a science elective, a statistics intro, a management/public health course, and the writing/research class to round it out, but make the bulk of the BS degree be actual clinical training that is already recognized and required by some employers.

In other words instead of running trying to grab all these alphabet courses, if they comprised the bulk of a BS program I think you would attract alot more folks. These are classes people take, or want to take, anyways, and coming out with a bachelors plus every established and recognized alphabet/con ed class is pretty attractive. From a hiring prospective, the bachelors would certify at least prior knowledge in these fields, so you wouldn't have to dig through an application looking for certificate cards.

A better overall measure of academic/clinical preparation.

Yes, I agree by the time a medic gets some experience and takes alot of the established con ed classes, he/she is quite knowledgable and deserves recognition for that.


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## MrJones (Jun 18, 2013)

Arovetli said:


> im with you, tuition costs are incredible. Yes, gen ed transfers, and it is lower division undergraduate credit. The problem there is no matter how much time you play in the lower division sandbox, you are still going to have to complete ~2 years of upper division courses to graduate with a Bachelor's.
> 
> A problem with present and past bachelors EMS programs is that they are, well, useless.
> 
> ...



PALS, ACLS, PTLS and AMLS are all required 300 level courses for both Associate and Bachelor degrees at EKU, as are clinicals and internship. In fact, all required Associate Degree core paramedic classes are 300 level; the additional required courses for the BS are 400 level.


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## Arovetli (Jun 18, 2013)

i am aware of this, as well as of the curriculums of all programs in the states. the post is broad for those who are not.

it is a good start to standardization.

the problem though is there are still wide variances in curriculum. There are forward thinking clinical training programs like eku and creighton, but even there, its nutty to have all common lower level courses directly count as upper level courses. it creates confusion. and you still have ems programs comprised of management or public health...


standardization.


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## MrJones (Jun 18, 2013)

Arovetli said:


> i am aware of this, as well as of the curriculums of all programs in the states. the post is broad for those who are not.
> 
> it is a good start to standardization.



I'd be interested to know, then, what other programs are already offering most, if not all, of what you have proposed. As would others here, I'm sure.


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## Arovetli (Jun 18, 2013)

MrJones said:


> I'd be interested to know, then, what other programs are already offering most, if not all, of what you have proposed. As would others here, I'm sure.



i think expat's signature links to the naemt which maintains a list of programs. although none of them are quite to the level they should be.

as an aside, i think we should form a committee to hire Mary Mundinger as a consultant to advancing ems education. within a decade paramedics would be performing appys in the back of battletanks.


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## chaz90 (Jun 18, 2013)

Arovetli said:


> as an aside, i think we should form a committee to hire Mary Mundinger as a consultant to advancing ems education. within a decade paramedics would be performing appys in the back of battletanks.



But then we'd have to be called Paranurses and drafted into the Cult of Mundinger.


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## Arovetli (Jun 18, 2013)

chaz90 said:


> But then we'd have to be called Paranurses and drafted into the Cult of Mundinger.



If you are not willing to trade your soul, you lack the dedication to excel as a paramedic. Priorities man, priorities.

For those unaware of the Good Miss Mundinger, it may help you to know that Vigo from Ghostbusters 2 was her firstborn son. However unlike her spawn, she is impervious to proton pack blasts and happiness.


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## Wheel (Jun 18, 2013)

Arovetli said:


> i think expat's signature links to the naemt which maintains a list of programs. although none of them are quite to the level they should be.
> 
> as an aside, i think we should form a committee to hire Mary Mundinger as a consultant to advancing ems education. within a decade paramedics would be performing appys in the back of battletanks.



I have found that UTHSCSA has a good curriculum that offers a lot of classes for clinical knowledge, not just a management concentration. A problem that I see is that most are very expensive, especially if you're out of state or if it is a private institution. It's hardly justifiable to pay $35k to go to George Washington online for two years for little financial incentive. South alabama and UTHSCSA are much better price wise, but they are in the minority I'm afraid.

I can only really speak to online ones though, as that is what I've researched the most.


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## Arovetli (Jun 18, 2013)

Yeah the expense is atrocious especially at this stage in the game where there is no financial payoff.

How about a consortium? If we can nationally agree upon a basic curriculum framework then the state EMS agencies could partner with the technical colleges and select universities to offer the courses and credits at various sites and training centers throughout the state.  The degree could be awarded and coordinated by a single state university but classes/courses can be online and have regional meetings.

Something like that. thoughts?


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## Wheel (Jun 18, 2013)

Arovetli said:


> Yeah the expense is atrocious especially at this stage in the game where there is no financial payoff.
> 
> How about a consortium? If we can nationally agree upon a basic curriculum framework then the state EMS agencies could partner with the technical colleges and select universities to offer the courses and credits at various sites and training centers throughout the state.  The degree could be awarded and coordinated by a single state university but classes/courses can be online and have regional meetings.
> 
> Something like that. thoughts?



You would be hard pressed to find enough university quality instructors to teach it at multiple sites in each state. Online would be better, with maybe some local clinical/practical classes.


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## Arovetli (Jun 18, 2013)

Wheel said:


> You would be hard pressed to find enough university quality instructors to teach it at multiple sites in each state. Online would be better, with maybe some local clinical/practical classes.



If the curriculum can be bulked up with alphabet courses and the already developed con/ed classes, all you would need are local instructors. Tuition and credit can be awarded for these courses instead of designing a whole new curriculum. True online university courses in management, public health, stats can supplement.

We have the content and instructors, it would be bringing it together under one academic roof and recognizing it with a degree instead of piecemeal wallet cards.


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## Wheel (Jun 18, 2013)

Arovetli said:


> If the curriculum can be bulked up with alphabet courses and the already developed con/ed classes, all you would need are instructors. Tuition and credit can be awarded for these courses instead of designing a whole new curriculum. True online university courses in management, public health, stats can supplement.



Probably would work, if by miracle we found agree on a national standard. I don't see that on the horizon sadly.


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## Arovetli (Jun 18, 2013)

it would probably take a forward thinking state or couple of states to implement it. perhaps that would provide a bit of momentum.

i would think entities such as aha, umbc, bcctpc, and the naemt who develop/promote these courses would be happy to jump on board, as the more classes taught/degrees awarded = more money for them.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jun 18, 2013)

similar to my signature link http://www.capems.org/get/

I am pretty happy with the CWU BS in Paramedicine http://www.cwu.edu/health-science/paramedicine-major-courses
Most of us choose Chem 101 or Nutrition 101, along with Bio 101, and A&P1 for our breadth science requirements. You can see the major courses above. 1st year is the medic program with some clinical extras, 2nd year is mostly research, management, and education. But patho is also there, along with a Terrorism class.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jun 18, 2013)

I think if they would have integrated something like the UMBC CCEMTP (for credit) into the 2nd year, it would have been just about perfect.


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## Arovetli (Jun 18, 2013)

ExpatMedic0 said:


> I think if they would have integrated something like the UMBC CCEMTP (for credit) into the 2nd year, it would have been just about perfect.



i think it would make a big selling point to students and employers that, among the other courses, a graduate comes out with these recognized programs and certs under their belt.

At least then there is a somewhat direct link to employability.


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