# Pro-Transport (bay area)



## Pro-Transport-1_EMT (Oct 30, 2009)

Pro-Transport-1 is a very bad EMS company to work for. I strongly feel that EMS is a family, and because I work for Pro-Transport-1 I feel I need to protect my EMS family members. I know that when you read the nice job EMT or Paramedic job descriptions from Pro-Transport-1 it sounds like Pro-Transport is a good company. 

Let me give you some true facts:

Pro-Transport-1 401K DOES NOT match at 15% as someone here stated it's 2% after 2 years of being a Pro-Transport employee. Before 2 years of service its 0%, Pro-Transport  doesn’t match for those employee’s at all. 

Pro-Transport-1 EMT's care very much. The problem is with Pro-Transport management, and ownership.

Medical Benefits: Medical Benefits at Pro-Transport-1 only covers 50% of the employee and 0% of Pro-Transport employee family members. This is for Kaiser Only.
Yes Pro-Transport offers other medical plans then Kaiser but the company pay’s 0% into them EVEN FOR THE EMPLOYEE. Pro-Transport employee’s pay 100%. Co-Pays are high with both. A Kaiser ER visit will cost you $250!

Starting pay is $9.50 per hr. which is a true statement. Yes you do get call bonuses. The call volume is low as others have stated about Pro-Transport. 4 BLS Calls on a good day. That does very depending on what station within Pro-Transport you work at. Many employee's have complained that the calls are not counted correctly. I personally haven't had any problem, but have seen many who have. Some have been shorted more then $25. 

The ambulances are often missing equipment again management is aware and routinely sends you out on calls. Often the rig’s are down and at Ford. Sometimes there are no ambulances to drive. Your call and your $5 gets routed away. O another thing dispatch does not dispatch evenly. So 1 crew may have 5 or 6 calls, and another crew may have only 2 calls. Even if the crew with 2 calls came on shift before the crew with 5 or 6. Pro-Transport management is aware and says their working on the problem. 

Let me just close by saying, I just feel strongly that these items needs to be made aware to EMS personnel who are thinking of applying. Yes, it’s a place to get your foot in the door with EMS. If you’re a new EMT come to Pro-Transport, but get in and get out. You will find that all I am saying about Pro-Transport-1 is very true. Honestly there is much more I could say about Pro-Transport but I think you get my point.


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## VentMedic (Oct 30, 2009)

In all fairness why don't you post a comparison of other transport services in your area to see if benefits, wages and bonuses are similar? 

Even in the SF Bay area, it is difficult for an EMT to demand much for wages. Realistically, 3 months of training and "BLS" care for 4 or 5 patients per day doesn't bring in the big money. With the short time for training and the many tech schools mass producing EMTs every 3 months or less, there is an abundance of EMT-Bs in the area just waiting for a job that at least offers a paycheck and/or health insurance. 

Many laid off and well educated people from Silicon Valley are now working as EMTs after a quick course just to keep their families insured and bring in some money. Some are just trying something different while inbetween employment contracts.  Of course they will probably return to their other careers and lifestyle once the economy in that area picks up.

If you don't like your job you can try to go elsewhere but as an EMT-B you might be limited.


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## 46Young (Oct 30, 2009)

Pro-Transport-1_EMT said:


> Pro-Transport-1 is a very bad EMS company to work for. I strongly feel that EMS is a family, and because I work for Pro-Transport-1 I feel I need to protect my EMS family members. I know that when you read the nice job EMT or Paramedic job descriptions from Pro-Transport-1 it sounds like Pro-Transport is a good company.
> 
> Let me give you some true facts:
> 
> ...



I strongly believe that those wishing to get some initial experience in EMS, where private based IFT is the only feasible option, should ONLY DO IT ER DIEM. Working at Wal-Mart, Costco, Staples, Applebees, TGIF, or something similar FT will likely pay better, and provide superior medical benefits. That would be a good strategy while waiting for an ER tech spot, a position in third service EMS, hospital based EMS, or while completing a degree. 

When you're hired as a brand new EMT for a private based IFT company, I strongly suggest getting shifts exclusively with medics. You'll see more acutely ill pts, you won't have to worry about any liability/negligence from working with an incompetent or inexperiences BLS provider. It's likely that you'll learn more when working with a medic, anyway.

That's exactly what I did. After getting my EMT, I kept my FT job in beverage sales, did a stint as an EMS vollie for MVVAC (NYC), and worked per diem for seven months at Hunter Ambulance-Ambulette Inc. in Inwood NY. When the NSLIJ HS CEMS hired me, it was for FT employment, and I was set. At Hunter, it quickly became evident that I was working with inexperienced, clinically ignorant personnel on the whole. When I had exactly two weeks on, I had a partner that was brand new to the field. It was at that point that I chose to work exclusively with medics. One crew brought a pt with rigor into the ED in a stair chair with an NRB attatched. I've heard of a Metrocare (now Transcare) crew doing something similar. I've also witnessed a crew "bagging" an arrest pt through the NRB resevoir. I took pity and threw them a BVM so they wouldn't get jammed up. You don't want to get mixed up in a negative pt care issue at all, let alone that early in your career.


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## 46Young (Oct 30, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> In all fairness why don't you post a comparison of other transport services in your area to see if benefits, wages and bonuses are similar?
> 
> Even in the SF Bay area, it is difficult for an EMT to demand much for wages. Realistically, 3 months of training and "BLS" care for 4 or 5 patients per day doesn't bring in the big money. With the short time for training and the many tech schools mass producing EMTs every 3 months or less, there is an abundance of EMT-Bs in the area just waiting for a job that at least offers a paycheck and/or health insurance.
> 
> ...



True. Many have been laid off, with bills to pay and mouths to feed. When you need work, and need it yesterday, you're going to look for the quickest, easiset option. Enter EMS. A GED, 600-700 bucks and 120 hours of your time will make you eligable for hire. You and everyone else who seek a quick and easy route to employment. As such, EMT's are a dime a dozen, and are compensated as such. the most desireable agencies can afford to be selective, and also require prior experience, to at least see some form of work history in the field. Continue your education to seperate yourself from the pack. And contribute to your 401k regardless of the employer's willingness to pay.

Recommended reading - The Truth About Money, The Lies About Money, and Rescue Your Money (read this first), all by Ric Edelman


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## VentMedic (Oct 30, 2009)

46Young said:


> When you're hired as a brand new EMT for a private based IFT company, I strongly suggest getting shifts exclusively with medics. You'll see more acutely ill pts, you won't have to worry about any liability/negligence from working with an incompetent or inexperiences BLS provider. It's likely that you'll learn more when working with a medic, anyway.


 
This is California and unfortunately the area in not in the OP's favor for that.

To find a Paramedic, 911 EMS is largely Fire Based. CCT utilizes RNs with EMTs as drivers and helpers. The very few ALS IFT trucks around are extremely limited in protocol that there is not much demand for them. Often a hospital will just book a CCT with a nurse rather then going through the long list of what a California Paramedic can not do. It is also a safer bet if the patient requires another med or technology during the wait time for the ambulance. When that happens and an ALS Paramedic truck arrives, another delay in transfer will happen while a CCT with a nurse is dispatched.


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## VentMedic (Oct 30, 2009)

46Young,

What forum are you going to next?  It looks like the OP is trying to hit them all today.


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## Pro-Transport-1_EMT (Oct 30, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> In all fairness why don't you post a comparison of other transport services in your area to see if benefits, wages and bonuses are similar?
> 
> Even in the SF Bay area, it is difficult for an EMT to demand much for wages. Realistically, 3 months of training and "BLS" care for 4 or 5 patients per day doesn't bring in the big money. With the short time for training and the many tech schools mass producing EMTs every 3 months or less, there is an abundance of EMT-Bs in the area just waiting for a job that at least offers a paycheck and/or health insurance.
> 
> ...



I totally agree with what you are saying things are bad out their, and getting a paycheck is not bad any place with things the way things are. Pro-Transport-1 is just one of many companies that are using the economy to better their business. I am sure that Pro-Transport-1 is not seeing the revenue that they saw even a year ago. I just wanted to put some info out their to the EMS community for those that are thinking about applying to take some of the recruitment rederick for what it is. Pro-Transport-1 is full of empty promises, they lack follow through on pretty much everything, and put the EMT's last. EMT's are their bread and butter, they make the company money and were getting dumped on a little more then we like. 

For all the people from the Silicon Valley now working in EMS were glad your here. EMS and Pro-Transport could really use some educated EMT's. Just be warned and maybe you can teach some of the managers at Pro Transport some management skills. 

Pay is low, even more at a non-union ambulance companies like pro transport. Pro Transport employee's recently voted down a union. This was because Pro Transport assured us that voting No on the union would be to our benefit. Their response has been no change in benefits, and termination of employee's who has supported the union. The raise their offering is less then $1. The annual inflation rate for this year is more then their offering. I ask you does that sound fair what Pro Transport is doing? They lie, and cheat their employee's!


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## VentMedic (Oct 30, 2009)

Pro-Transport-1_EMT said:


> Pay is low, even more at a non-union ambulance companies like pro transport. Pro Transport employee's recently voted down a union. This was because Pro Transport assured us *that voting No on the union would be to our benefit. Their response has been no change in benefits,* and termination of employee's who has supported the union. The raise their offering is less then $1. The annual inflation rate for this year is more then their offering. I ask you does that sound fair what Pro Transport is doing? They lie, and cheat their employee's!


 
Did they specifically offer you more pay and benefits by voting NO on the union contract?

Do you also realize some of the contracts that would have been lost by an ambulance company going on strike every month? The alternative could have been the unemployment line for employees such as that experienced by another Bay area ambulance company. In fact, it was Pro Transport that won that contract after the other company was not renewed. However from what I understand that contract is not working out very well and some of it has to do with the attitudes and outspoken words of the EMTs towards some patients and the facilities they are contracted with. 

I don't think you are seeing the big picture. Rather, I think you are probably one of those disgruntled employees that have been reprimanded for running your mouth at inappropriate times in the patient care areas of the hospitals and LTC facilities.  You might start looking for another job before you get yourself into some serious trouble.


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## Akulahawk (Oct 30, 2009)

PT: Here's a hint... treat the staff at the LTC's and hospitals with a grin, nod, and a pleasant tone. Even if you VERY MUCH disagree with them. Trust me on this. If your company's employees are pleasant to work with, they'll get favored by the staff at those facilities in getting transports. More calls means (ultimately) more money for you because you won't be laid-off because they're not getting calls... 

As to the rest of it, if you have PROOF that only those employees that voted for the union were released from employment, they may have some cause of action against the company for it. However, California is an "at-will" state and you OR the company can release you from employment with or without cause.

Also, if you have actual proof that they actually offered more money and better benefits from a "no" vote and nothing occurred, there may be some recourse for that, but be forewarned... it could result in loss of your job in the meantime. 

I must, absolutely MUST agree with Vent on something: WATCH WHAT YOU SAY AND HOW YOU SAY IT WHILE AROUND PATIENTS AND IN PATIENT CARE AREAS. IT CAN NEGATIVELY IMPACT UPON YOU DIRECTLY (you can be fired) AND INDIRECTLY (a bunch of you can be laid off because of no company income). 

Yes, I was yelling... it's to make a point...


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## Pro-Transport-1_EMT (Oct 30, 2009)

I do see the big picture. Contracts are everything, and just cause I decided to express my thoughts you think I'm an idiot. That doesn't make sense. Pro Transport has some very young employee's who say very wrong things to very important people. Yes it's true that young EMT's shooting off their mouth have cost the company contracts, and have damaged to company image. Pro-Transport is not seen as being very professional by many in EMS including many nurses, doctors, firefighters or fellow EMS personnel. Just ask AMR. I think all of this brings down EMS a whole, and is in fact a direct reflection on the lack of hiring standard recently demonstrated by Pro Transport.

I was have been with the company a long time maybe to long. I have never been in trouble, but it does seem like with Pro Transport-1 your head is never far from the chopping block. Ask anyone who works for Pro Transport and they will back up what I am saying. The only exception being those who work in Cotati.


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## VentMedic (Oct 30, 2009)

Pro-Transport-1_EMT said:


> I do see the big picture. Contracts are everything, and just cause I decided to express my thoughts you think I'm an idiot. That doesn't make sense. *Pro Transport has some very young employee's who say very wrong things to very important people. Yes it's true that young EMT's shooting off their mouth have cost the company contracts, and have damaged to company image.* Pro-Transport is not seen as being very professional by many in EMS including many nurses, doctors, firefighters or fellow EMS personnel. Just ask AMR. I think all of this brings down EMS a whole, and *is in fact a direct reflection on the lack of hiring standard recently demonstrated by Pro Transport.*
> 
> I was have been with the company a long time maybe to long. I have never been in trouble, but it does seem like with Pro Transport-1 your head is never far from the chopping block. *Ask anyone who works for Pro Transport and they will back up what I am saying.* The only exception being those who work in Cotati.


 
If what you have stated in your post is true about the others employees, why would I want to bother asking "anyone who works for Pro Transport"?  How would I know it is not just one of the employees the company hired by low standards who is just shooting off his/her mouth? You have now not only taken down the company but also the employees. Thus, your arguments from your first post have now been weakened.


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## Pro-Transport-1_EMT (Oct 30, 2009)

Akulahawk said:


> Also, if you have actual proof that they actually offered more money and better benefits from a "no" vote and nothing occurred, there may be some recourse for that, but be forewarned... it could result in loss of your job in the meantime.
> 
> I must, absolutely MUST agree with Vent on something: WATCH WHAT YOU SAY AND HOW YOU SAY IT WHILE AROUND PATIENTS AND IN PATIENT CARE AREAS. IT CAN NEGATIVELY IMPACT UPON YOU DIRECTLY (you can be fired) AND INDIRECTLY (a bunch of you can be laid off because of no company income).
> 
> Yes, I was yelling... it's to make a point...



I agree with both of you. I am always as professional as I can be however some and only some employee's have not been. Call volume is down and maybe this is why. The bad apples hurt the rest of us for sure. Just so I am very clear most that work for Pro-Transport are very caring, and treat patients how we would want our family treated. Some however have not been this way. Pro Transport-1 is going through some hard times now. Pro Transport lacks training when first coming on, and lately seems to hire some very poorly trained EMT's. Its very hard on the rest of us.


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## VentMedic (Oct 30, 2009)

Pro-Transport-1_EMT said:


> and lately seems to hire some very poorly trained EMT's. Its very hard on the rest of us.


 
Too many EMT mills have sprung up in the Bay area over the past 3 years turning out new EMTs in a month. Unfortunately, the students are suckered into paying a high price for the 120 hours of education with some false hopes. Thus, when it isn't like they thought it would be, some blame the employers, other healthcare professionals and the patients.

I might sound a little harsh but I was a consultant on a couple of contracts in the Bay area.


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## Pro-Transport-1_EMT (Oct 30, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Do you also realize some of the contracts that would have been lost by an ambulance company going on strike every month? The alternative could have been the unemployment line for employees such as that experienced by another Bay area ambulance company. In fact, it was Pro Transport that won that contract after the other company was not renewed. However from what I understand that contract is not working out very well and some of it has to do with the attitudes and outspoken words of the EMTs towards some patients and the facilities they are contracted with.
> 
> I don't think you are seeing the big picture. Rather, I think you are probably one of those disgruntled employees that have been reprimanded for running your mouth at inappropriate times in the patient care areas of the hospitals and LTC facilities.  You might start looking for another job before you get yourself into some serious trouble.




Vent your the one that brought up the contract issue and that you had heard something. I simply stated that their was issue with the company, and yes lately Pro Transport is not hiring what many of us good EMT's think are well qualified people. EMS and we as EMT's deserve better.


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## VentMedic (Oct 30, 2009)

Pro-Transport-1_EMT said:


> Vent your the one that brought up the contract issue and that you had heard something. I simply stated that their was issue with the company, and yes lately Pro Transport is not hiring what many of us good EMT's think are well qualified people. EMS and we as EMT's deserve better.


 
Your company does mostly IFTs and not 911 contracts. However, if talk is out that there are issues amongst the employees and the company even if it is just gossip on an anonymous forum, that company could be scrutinized closer during the next contract for whatever facility or county/municipal region. That could eventually negatively impact the employees further if another contract is lost or the terms are renegotiated. Thus, be careful with what you say and the rumors you start if you can not provide proof or you are not prepared to follow through.


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## daedalus (Oct 30, 2009)

This is the story of almost every private ambulance company in California. Poor management, people in charge without the education to be in charge, employees treated badly, rigs are kept stocked with the oldest and poorest equipment possible to keep costs down, etc etc.

We can fight this with better educated EMTs that will create a relative shortage of us, and the EMTs that available are will not take jobs like the one described in this thread.


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## Old Fart Medic (Nov 14, 2009)

*Wow!*



Pro-Transport-1_EMT said:


> Pro-Transport-1 is a very bad EMS company to work for. I strongly feel that EMS is a family, and because I work for Pro-Transport-1 I feel I need to protect my EMS family members. I know that when you read the nice job EMT or Paramedic job descriptions from Pro-Transport-1 it sounds like Pro-Transport is a good company.
> 
> Let me give you some true facts:
> 
> ...




I'm just an old fart medic.  I have been around the block, more than one time.  I remember when I first got hired as a brand new EMT!  I thought I was hot stuff, that I had died and gone to heaven.  I was going to get paid $19,000 a year for doing what I had been doing for free.  AND I only had to work 20 days out of the month!  That was awesome.  
I have read this thread.  If you feel so abused by ProTransport, why don't you just go over to the dark side and work for AMR?  I have been there, got the battle scars to prove it.  You are just a number.  You have to start out as a gurney humper.  And I don't care how good you think you are,  you are so much dog  stuff on the foot of others.  I have worked for big companies, and for the mom and pop companies.  I have worked long hard shifts where I never laid my head down, then I have worked for companies where I was so bored that I took to computers.  (Love them).  
I work for Pro Transport.  I certainly won't back up your accusations.  I have had a good experiance so far with them.  The people I work with are intellegent, professional, courteous, ask questions, voted out that union, without the promise of a raise.  That would have been illegal and would have brought the Justice Department into the fray.   
 I don't have insuarance thru Pro Transport so I can't say about that, but remember, Insuarance is a benefit, not a right.  Kaiser Shipbuilding did it to get qaulified workers for his shipyards when you couldn't pay more than the law allowed.  No one is making you stay where you obviously don't want to be.  So, go work for AMR.  Why stay where you don't want to be?


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## NorCalMedic (Dec 7, 2009)

*wow*

I actually used to work for pro transport, and as vent said i would be very careful what you say and where you say it. If you ask me, you seem like one of the young uneducated snot nose kids that wanted the union souly to make more money and have a sense of direction in your life. Wanted a reason to not run a call and have someone to sit there and back you up kinda like a mommy or a daddy. Ill tell you what that company will one day be one of the largest ambulance companies around, and if you dont becareful you will be in the EDD line because they will have gotten rid of you and not want to hire you back, and will have gotten so big that there is no other ambulance companies to choose from... and where does that leave you? jobless... be happy that a company like protransport is even willing to hire young, limited educated individuals... for god sake they put you behind the wheel of a vehicle that costs somewhere near 100,000... that youll probably wreck... do they charge you? no they dont.. you still get a pay check and you still get your benefits.. you DO NOT get the 5,000 bill that it costs to fix the rig. So in closing take your complaints somwhere else or like vent said compare the competitors and see where PT lands... and ill tell you right now they are prob going to sit at the top with the most perks, and the most money to be made out there....

Pheww glad I got that off my chest...

Oh yea and your union remarks are CRAP!


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## EMSLaw (Dec 8, 2009)

Akulahawk said:


> As to the rest of it, if you have PROOF that only those employees that voted for the union were released from employment, they may have some cause of action against the company for it. However, California is an "at-will" state and you OR the company can release you from employment with or without cause.



Firing people because they voted to unionize is a violation of Federal labor laws.  

I agree with the rest of what you and Vent said, though.  It always irks me when people start talking about other calls, etc., in front of a patient.


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## Akulahawk (Dec 8, 2009)

EMSLaw said:


> *Firing people because they voted to unionize is a violation of Federal labor laws.
> *
> I agree with the rest of what you and Vent said, though.  It always irks me when people start talking about other calls, etc., in front of a patient.


Which is why I said "if you have PROOF" because that would mean that the Feds could get involved... No proof, no case.


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## JPINFV (Dec 8, 2009)

EMSLaw said:


> Firing people because they voted to unionize is a violation of Federal labor laws.



Let's be fair though. It's not that hard at most ambulance companies to built a for cause termination case. There's enough 'freelancing' outside of the rules because on one end you have the problem employees and on the other end you have the good employees who are essentially forced to work outside of the rules that are laid down because of the problem employees.


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 10, 2009)

*Pro Trans is engaging in illegal activity*

Pro is and has been engaging in illegal activity, and it wasn't the justice dept that got involved, it was the NLRB. Just following their last election, they were slapped with an injuction basically telling them to stop breaking just about every rule from the NLRA. A few employees illegally put on suspension were awarded a few months back pay. 

And they have been breaking all the same laws again prior to this recent union vote - coercion, bribes, intimidation. They are even paying a stool from the East Coast to come and bad mouth the union. That is salary they could spend on employees, training, benefits, etc. 

It doesn't matter who you work for, what occupation you hold, or your level of professionalism. You are going to work hard to make someone who works less hard rich. Period. AMR is no different than Pro in that respect. Everyone in this thread is an EMS worker first, and an employee second.


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## JPINFV (Dec 10, 2009)

Johnny Foley said:


> And they have been breaking all the same laws again prior to this recent union vote - coercion, bribes, intimidation. They are even paying a stool from the East Coast to come and bad mouth the union. That is salary they could spend on employees, training, benefits, etc.


...and this is the problem with unions. Once unions are involved, it becomes an 'us vs them' situation and the company has much less reason to do anything than the bare minimum that is required by the labor agreement. 


> It doesn't matter who you work for, what occupation you hold, or your level of professionalism. You are going to work hard to make someone who works less hard rich. Period. AMR is no different than Pro in that respect. Everyone in this thread is an EMS worker first, and an employee second.



How exactly are you going to quantify work and value added to the company?


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 10, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> ...and this is the problem with unions. Once unions are involved, it becomes an 'us vs them' situation and the company has much less reason to do anything than the bare minimum that is required by the labor agreement.
> 
> 
> It is naive to think that it is not already an "us vs them" situation, which is and always was created by the company. Healthcare is big business, maybe the biggest currently in this country and companies already do have a reason to give the bare minimum: their bottom line. With companies like pro the entire industry suffers because of the poor treatment of their employees. They are not trained properly on the job - which in EMS is the only way to be trained, not on any dummy - they are pushed around by mgmt, causing pt care to suffer, and causing the entire image of EMS to stay shoddy. The owners of Pro are getting filthy rich off the work of their EMT's.
> ...


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## MrBrown (Dec 10, 2009)

Did you actually research any of the following before you started? Did you ask about pay, benefits, quality assurance, work schedules etc?

The US EMT-B is the lowest entry to practice standard in the developed world and has the lowest pay I have seen of any country and I'd say the two go hand in hand. 

If you didn't do your homework before starting it's no good coming here and whnging about it.


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 10, 2009)

MrBrown said:


> Did you actually research any of the following before you started? Did you ask about pay, benefits, quality assurance, work schedules etc?
> 
> The US EMT-B is the lowest entry to practice standard in the developed world and has the lowest pay I have seen of any country and I'd say the two go hand in hand.
> 
> If you didn't do your homework before starting it's no good coming here and whnging about it.




Homework about what?! I know what my coworkers get paid, and I know the kind of routinely dangerous, intense things we do for our money. I also know all about the benefits, schedules, labor laws, OSHA regulations, and mandatory training involved. 

People don't get into EMS because they want easy money, they do it because they want to help people, do something that changes from day to day, and something that provides a small measure of emotion into their lives. You can keep all the high paying, hedge fund manager positions and real estate brokers, and IT jobs, because when it really comes down to it - the CA Big One, terrorist attack, Hurricane, etc. - you still do not have a skill as essential as mine. 

Also, you made a remark about doing homework and you can't even spell "whining".


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## VentMedic (Dec 10, 2009)

Johnny Foley said:


> People don't get into EMS because they want easy money, they do it because they want to help people, do something that changes from day to day, and something that provides a small measure of emotion into their lives.


 
You are kidding yourself there.

EMT-B can take all of 3 weeks to obtain and Paramedic in CA is only a little over 1000 hours of training. It is the easy cert to get for those who don't want to go to school for a whole 2 years of education. Let's not forget that "I wanna be a FF thing". Some get into it because of the cool stuff they see on TV, the uniform and the L&S.  The respect they think the uniform and truck will bring them "small measure of emotion into their lives" quickly.   Patient care is rarely a thought.  In fact some are surprised when they aren't running L&S all day to cool traumas and that you actually have to touch patients.  The 10 hours of EMT-B clinicals may not have given them a good view of what their job was about.   Read some of the posts on this forum and you can see that also.

 I have worked EMS for many years and now see it as Flight/Specialty at scene and in the hospital. When you see over 50 different ambulance crews a day you can usually tell who actually cares what is on the stretcher. UPS gives more attention to packages than some EMTs do to their patients. I do know some of the issues about your company but again, they are not much different than other ambulance services in the Bay area. 

If you have 50% of your employees who actually care about patient care, consider your company very lucky. That means doing attentive patient care even on the routine transports which waiting for "the CA Big One, terrorist attack, Hurricane, etc".


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## JPINFV (Dec 10, 2009)

Johnny Foley said:


> It is naive to think that it is not already an "us vs them" situation, which is and always was created by the company. Healthcare is big business, maybe the biggest currently in this country and companies already do have a reason to give the bare minimum: their bottom line. With companies like pro the entire industry suffers because of the poor treatment of their employees. They are not trained properly on the job - which in EMS is the only way to be trained, not on any dummy - they are pushed around by mgmt, causing pt care to suffer, and causing the entire image of EMS to stay shoddy. The owners of Pro are getting filthy rich off the work of their EMT's.



You know, it's funny because I worked for two years for one of those 'avoid at all costs' type companies and I never had any serious problems with upper management, despite having a handful of major incidences (including one time when I got in a yelling match with a crew chief). One of the few reasons that I can credit not being fired was the fact that I always tried to work with management and not against them. Working with management is simple too. If you have problems, bring them up early while they're small. Don't try to hide things. Most importantly (and the problem I saw with a lot of my coworkers) is to show up and actually work. I completely agree with Mike Rowe that we, as a society, has declared war on work (skip to the 16 minute mark). If you show up to work and expect to do the bare minimum for a lot of money, then yea. You're going to have problems and problems that no union will fix. Of course all of this changes with a union. After all, why introduce a new piece of equipment, more CEs, or give someone a merit based raise if you could hold out till the current contract expires and use it for leverage?

Furthermore, the only way that they can rip you off is if you let them. Work hard, get noticed, and then negotiate a higher wage. If conditions are truly that atrocious, then find another job and get the hell out of dodge. 


As far as the bare minimum training, I blame the low education standards before I will blame any single country.


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 10, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> You know, it's funny because I worked for two years for one of those 'avoid at all costs' type companies and I never had any serious problems with upper management, despite having a handful of major incidences (including one time when I got in a yelling match with a crew chief). One of the few reasons that I can credit not being fired was the fact that I always tried to work with management and not against them. Working with management is simple too. If you have problems, bring them up early while they're small. Don't try to hide things. Most importantly (and the problem I saw with a lot of my coworkers) is to show up and actually work. I completely agree with Mike Rowe that we, as a society, has declared war on work (skip to the 16 minute mark). If you show up to work and expect to do the bare minimum for a lot of money, then yea. You're going to have problems and problems that no union will fix. Of course all of this changes with a union. After all, why introduce a new piece of equipment, more CEs, or give someone a merit based raise if you could hold out till the current contract expires and use it for leverage?
> 
> Furthermore, the only way that they can rip you off is if you let them. Work hard, get noticed, and then negotiate a higher wage. If conditions are truly that atrocious, then find another job and get the hell out of dodge.
> 
> ...


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## JPINFV (Dec 10, 2009)

Johnny Foley said:


> Work hard and get noticed?? All the EMTs and Medics I know already work hard. Do you think that will get you a raise if the shareholders or bosses decide that its time to increase UHU's or productivity? Americans have not declared a war on work, they are sick of the constant competition for decent wages and work conditions. How can you sincerely care day in and day out about that junky or drunk who abuses 911 constantly, or that sweet old lady, or that biker who got hit by the DWI, when you can not even get the hours you need to pay rent and bills because your company just took two cars off the street?



First off, unions won't decrease frequent flier calls. Sorry, but the fact that you even brought that up simply means that your trust in the union is misplaced. As far as caring about them, is it simply too much to ask that you do your job without moaning about patients to patients? The patients aren't the ones deciding your wage and to even contemplate taking out your gripes with your company on them (which is implied by the argument that it's hard to care) is rather sad. 

Similarly, welcome to a market based economy. Yes, you are in competition to improve yourself and prove your worth to the company. What else besides ability (proven and potential) should decide who get's raises and who get's promotion? Who ever the union decides? Time on the job? Who's to say that the person there for 20 years deserves a promotion over the person there 10 years? 

Furthermore, sorry the company is there to make money. In that effort, workers are there to trade their time and energy for money. It's not a one way street since things like morale, wages, perks, and other benefits directly affects the companies retention rate (consider, for a moment, that given 3 day orientation period and 3 days of FTO time, a new EMT-B costs something around $540 give a $10/hr wage. That adds up quickly), applicant pool, and ultimately the bottom line. However, if you think that a company exists to serve its employees then you are simply mistaken. Unions ultimately change that. They just change the route taken and not always for the better. Ask the grocery checkers following their strikes in So Cal around 2003-2004. 



> As far as relations with mgmt goes, the union stance is "work to the rule", no more no less. It is not up to the one getting taken advantage of to extend themselves to those getting paid more, for doing less. If a union is strong and cohesive, mgmt will come to them, not the other way around as you suggest.



So, in other words if I wanted to work harder to get ahead and take on extra responsibilities to prove my worth and increase my value to the company, I'm going to have some union slug come along and tell me to knock it off because I'm making the rest of the slugs look bad? Cool beans. 


> That is on top of an avg. 48 hr work week. The whole point is to stop bad mouthing EMS workers, young or old, and start helping them all out by organizing.


 Why would I help someone do something that's ultimately detrimental. Unions had their place, but that time has long gone. For the most part, unions only serve to protect people who should have been fired a long time ago. Hey, has Boston Fire stopped objecting to mandatory drug screening yet? I guess the bottom line for the union is more important than fire fighters lives. Right CaHill and Payne?  I guess contract negotiations are more important than keeping druggies and drunks out of the fire house.


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 10, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> First off, unions won't decrease frequent flier calls. Sorry, but the fact that you even brought that up simply means that your trust in the union is misplaced. As far as caring about them, is it simply too much to ask that you do your job without moaning about patients to patients? The patients aren't the ones deciding your wage and to even contemplate taking out your gripes with your company on them (which is implied by the argument that it's hard to care) is rather sad.
> 
> It was never implied that whining about pts to pts, or a lessening in care was acceptable or advocated. What i'm saying is that it is difficult to maintain focus and a sincerely positive attitude when there are things hanging heavy over your head such as your financial responsibilities, unsure job security, coworkers losing jobs, bad benefits, and the like. The analogy - somewhat dramatic but accurate - is soldiers vs. policy makers. Do you think that a marine PFC who just heard that his tour has been mandatorily extended is going to be personable to anyone? The same applies to an EMT or Medic who just learned that a large percent of his earnings - not mgmt's - will be cut due to a freeze in OT.
> 
> ...


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## 46Young (Dec 10, 2009)

I've worked for union and non union employers alike. The union shops have ensured a liveable wage more or less on par with other local civil service jobs, an objective promotional list based on test scores as well as credentials and oral interviews (preventing cronyism), progressive, documented discipline (to prevent admin from removing someone based on personal dislike), better working conditions, and being required to consider employee's wants and needs during negotiations. Negotiations, give and take, not dominance by admin or dominance by the union.

The alternative is working in substandard conditions for low pay, MAYBE getting a small raise if management feels like it, promotion due to favoritism, being forced to resign after amassing a paper trail (being written up for things that no one else has, something that union borne progressive discipline prevents), shoddy medical benefits, admin not willing to entertain forward thinking by field personnel.

In today's environment it's as important as ever to have a safe, secure job with decent benefits and a liveable wage. Sure, union shops can suffer layoffs, but that has been to a much lesser extent within public service when compared to corporate America, small businesses and all. You'll have slackers in union shops, sure, but that's what SOP's, GOP's and progressive discipline are for. Admin would do well to have those in place as a condition of the contract. 

Without a union, maybe you'll get a decent wage, maybe you'll be promoted, maybe you won't be driven out by a hostile supervisor with something against you personally. 

With a union, you don't have to deal with any of that nonsense. I'll take that over being unprotected in a potentially hostile environment hands down. Money makes the world go 'round. Anyone who chooses not to get their piece will be left out in the cold. Take whatever hookups and handouts you can get. Whatever you're not getting, someone else is (in this case the Pro Txp owners). Ask anyone who lost their shirts in the stock market. The money didn't disappear, it just went to someone else.


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## JPINFV (Dec 10, 2009)

Johnny Foley said:


> It was never implied that whining about pts to pts, or a lessening in care was acceptable or advocated. What i'm saying is that it is difficult to maintain focus and a sincerely positive attitude when there are things hanging heavy over your head such as your financial responsibilities, unsure job security, coworkers losing jobs, bad benefits, and the like. The analogy - somewhat dramatic but accurate - is soldiers vs. policy makers. Do you think that a marine PFC who just heard that his tour has been mandatorily extended is going to be personable to anyone? The same applies to an EMT or Medic who just learned that a large percent of his earnings - not mgmt's - will be cut due to a freeze in OT.
> 
> ...
> 
> Why so quick to axe your fellow EMS workers? You seem to have a deep concern for yourself, can you spare some for the person who works alongside you?



First, your analogy fails because unless the soldier is dealing directly with representatives of the federal government, then s/he isn't dealing with customers.

Second, now that you've made clear that you don't really care how you act in front of patients (customers) if you get a late call and that one of the major boons of union life is the protection of people who should be fired, this conversation is over. There's no sense in discussing work with someone who doesn't understand what a work ethic is.


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 11, 2009)

*The Truth!*



JPINFV said:


> First, your analogy fails because unless the soldier is dealing directly with representatives of the federal government, then s/he isn't dealing with customers.
> 
> Second, now that you've made clear that you don't really care how you act in front of patients (customers) if you get a late call and that one of the major boons of union life is the protection of people who should be fired, this conversation is over. There's no sense in discussing work with someone who doesn't understand what a work ethic is.





Alright, from your earlier posts JPINV you have made it clear that:

1. You will step on a coworker to get ahead.
2. You will approach mgmt with problems before they get to big, i.e. you will rat out coworkers
3. You don't understand or care that fatigue - mental and physical - is a real part of EMS. 
4. Union stewards who HELP employees through disciplines, education, and keeping them at work (for no extra pay!!), are really just SLUGS.
5. Seniority for raises/promotions shouldn't matter 
6. You don't understand that if EMT's could say what is really on their minds, they would all get fired b/c not only is mgmt pretty inept, but also vindictive.

So, I think i've figured your true identity: You are either the owner of Protransport, or the latest new supervisor.


In my last post I wrote about 700 words. You took out one sentence that was part of an admittidely stretched analogy, and trashed me over that? Where's any defense of the free market you hold up? Where's your American history knowledge defending your postition on the demise of Unionism? I asserted that you would stab your own mother to get ahead in the company, and you didn't defend yourself in your next post. And you still seem sincerely eager to fire anyone at the drop of a hat.

If you are a manager, you need to see yourself more in the light of a public representative, like a senator. The people "underneath" you benefit more from a cohesive environment, not competitive, and you are the one to give it to them, until the union decides to take it from you. If you are an employee, stop badmouthing, backstabbing, stepping on, and generally being a difficult person to your coworkers. Yeah you are competing for the same crumbs, but you are both completely equal human beings.


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## JPINFV (Dec 11, 2009)

Johnny Foley said:


> Alright, from your earlier posts JPINV you have made it clear that:
> 
> 1. You will step on a coworker to get ahead.
> 2. You will approach mgmt with problems before they get to big, i.e. you will rat out coworkers
> ...


Alternatively:

1. I do my work and don't expect to be held back from doing my work because 'I'm making someone else look bad.'

2. Not all problems are interpersonal, however I do expect my coworkers to act professionally while on the job. They're wearing the same uniform I am, thus they are ultimately a reflection on me. 
So, I think i've figured your true identity: You are either the owner of Protransport, or the latest new supervisor.

3. I understand that just because I'm fatigued doesn't mean I get to be an a-hole to patients and other health care workers. 

4. Yes.. union officials, such as the ones fighting to keep druggies and drunks at Boston FD, are slugs. Union officials who get mad at members who go beyond the job description are slugs. We can agree on that point.

5. Why should seniority matter over ability? Do you eat moldy cheese because it has seniority over the other cheeses?

6. I've never had a problem speaking my mind. This includes a time I told an operations manager that his FTO was being asinine. When told why the FTO was being asinine and why I refused to do what I was told, he agreed with me. No... I didn't get in trouble for that. No, I don't need a union official taking money out of my pay check to pat my head, wipe my bum, and protect me from management. 


> If you are a manager, you need to see yourself more in the light of a public representative, like a senator. The people "underneath" you benefit more from a cohesive environment, not competitive, and you are the one to give it to them, until the union decides to take it from you. If you are an employee, stop badmouthing, backstabbing, stepping on, and generally being a difficult person to your coworkers. Yeah you are competing for the same crumbs, but you are both completely equal human beings.



No. I am not a manager. Additionally, you have no clue what type of employee I am. I'm not going to hide things to protect coworkers, however I have absolutely zero problem going to bat for them when needed. Yea... sorry, but I have no problem being "a rat" and turning in idiots who do things like text in front of a patient during a transport. Sorry, but unlike unions, I have a work ethic and standards.


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 11, 2009)

This thread is starting to get repetitive aand argumentative so this the last post from me...





JPINFV said:


> Alternatively:
> 
> 1. I do my work and don't expect to be held back from doing my work because 'I'm making someone else look bad.'
> 
> ...



C'mon. Be a man and talk to your partner first instead of running off and ratting on them. Afterall a rat is just the grown-up term for "tattle-tale". Or show them the respect enough to go to your union rep first who has both of your interests in mind, not the company's. 

Again, to reiterate, Unions can get you more than you can get yourself. It is a proven, documented fact that union shops earn more money, benefits, better conditions for their members than non-union. Unions improve the wages of minorities and women, improve pt care, and improve relations with the communities that they work in. Can you do any of this stuff all by yourself? No. You can only help yourself and tattle on you partner in the process.


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## JPINFV (Dec 11, 2009)

Why should I show respect to people who refuse to show respect to patients? How about supporting professionalism over grade school "tattle teller" BS?


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 11, 2009)

Talking to your partner first is more professional and respectful than telling mgmt about their inappropriate behavior. Period. Thats what a partner is, an equal. The ability to handle problems amongst your peers is a professional attribute and a required skill in any high-stress occupation like EMS. Like I said, be a man, and don't go off and tell daddy(mgmt).


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## VentMedic (Dec 11, 2009)

Johnny Foley said:


> Unions improve the wages *of minorities and women, improve pt care,* and improve relations with the communities that they work in. Can you do any of this stuff all by yourself? No. You can only help yourself and tattle on you partner in the process.


 
Do you want to explain some of this? How does the union improve patient care? Many union leaders could not tell you the difference between an EMT and a Paramedic. At far as the women and minorities thing, look at the recent legal decisions in the courts for reverse discrimination and yes, unions were involved. Thus, unions do not make the laws of the country and there are associations who don't take the money of the employees who have these interests in view. 



> Last point: if you want to see why people really get into EMS, volunteer sometime at a first aid tent, or medical standby, or something similar. For example: San Francisco *Pride Parade*. Why else would someone spend an entire weekend wiping puke off of teenagers, splinting and swathing, transporting drunks, bleeding control, rehydrating old people, and getting sunburnt - for no pay?! Its the occupation first, and the company second.


 
The fact that you have pointed out minorities, women and now the SF Pride Parade seems to indicate you have some other personal issues. There are many bigger festivals in SF besides the Pride parade for you to have used as an example. I don't know of any ambulance in that city that is a volunteer service. The EMTs on the ambulances working in the Bay area are paid. However, the medical booths at some events are ran by the hospitals and are part paid and part volunteer. Some do it for a point or two on their evaluations in the community service section. Thus, it is not without some benefit.

The one thing a union can do is keep someone who has better education with experience from being promoted when some deadbeat has more senority. Promoting one individual who has less senority but more education would be detrimental to their message of "equal opportunity" to all. But for the EMTs who want no part of education, unions are great as they can protect the employees when their employers try to force mandatory educational inservices on them. 



> C'mon. Be a man and talk to your partner first instead of running off and ratting on them. Afterall a rat is just the grown-up term for "tattle-tale". Or show them the respect enough to go to your union rep first who has both of your interests in mind, not the company's.


 
If someone is screwing up to where it puts the patient and my license at risk, I am not going to the union but rather through the proper chain of command and to the state licensing agency if necessary. Patients deserve accountability of those administering medical care. EMS is about the lives of patients and not stuffing boxes on an assembly line. The unions have no interest in patient care or what your responsibilities are to holding a certification or license. 

Again, there are patients involved who must be considered and they are the ones done a great disservice by the unions. You are in California and have not learned anything from Vallejo or the city of Alameda. What about the issues of San Francisco? How about the FF who worked 19 straight shifts? The union supported him. Safe with the public's interest in mind?

What about all the BS unions spend millions of dollars of both taxpayers and employees to support their own cause? Hell they don't even think their own employees are smart enough to make an election decision and tell them how to vote as well as taking their money to support the union's favorite candidate or bill that does the public or anyone but themselves any good.


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 11, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Do you want to explain some of this? How does the union improve patient care? Many union leaders could not tell you the difference between an EMT and a Paramedic.



The union I am referring to - not neccesarily a part or or advocate of - is NEMSA, which is technically a craft union/mutual aid association completely made up of EMS professionals who know the difference btw EMT, MEDIC, IFT, 911 contract, BLS, ALS, CCT, bs, etc. And happier employees, who have collectively organized to solve many issues that mgmt could not - supply requisition, ambulance repair, scheduling conflicts - can offer better pt care. EMS mgmt is inept as far as I have seen it, partly because the care and transportation of sick and injured individuals is a concept that can never mesh with profits.



> Thus, unions do not make the laws of the country and there are associations who don't take the money of the employees who have these interests in view.


Thats great that there are associations interested in supporting issues in EMS. They get their funding from elsewhere, so what? Is it taxdollars? Is it grants? Donations? Who cares? The union does not take profits. It pays its full-time employees a living wage as it should, and it pays its lawyers their fees. All their financial information is available for anyone to see. I'm happy to pay for their services. Put somewhat dramatically: People who help people help people deserve to get paid for it. Deserve much more than a typical hedge fund manager.



> The fact that you have pointed out minorities, women and now the SF Pride Parade seems to indicate you have some other personal issues. There are many bigger festivals in SF besides the Pride parade for you to have used as an example. I don't know of any ambulance in that city that is a volunteer service. The EMTs on the ambulances working in the Bay area are paid. However, the medical booths at some events are ran by the hospitals and are part paid and part volunteer. Some do it for a point or two on their evaluations in the community service section. Thus, it is not without some benefit.


 
So what I have mentioned women, minorities and the community that attends the SF Pride Parade!? Personal issues!? WTF are you talking about!? Obviously I work in San Francisco, where a majority of my patients fall into one of those three categories. Yes I am concerned for them and yes I make a point of highlighting them because if you haven't figured out from my other post (pro-union), I am interetsed in helping people who many others forget about, i.e. women, minorities, GLBT community, and most importantly, workers. Isn't EMS about the non-judgemental assitance to those in need? Do you ask your pts about there sexual orientation before you treat them? You got the issues Ventmedic.

As far as volunteering goes: check out SF Pride Medical Committee. All-volunteer medical staff there for the whole weekend. Skill levels from MD to First Responder, from as far away as British Colombia. There are volunteers who have been working there for 25 yrs - FOR FREE. All supplies are donated including ECG's, fluids and IVs, splinting gear, AED's, backboards, cushman carts that act as ambulances to get through the 250,000 people (biggest outdoor festival in CA). As far as other festivals go, check out RockMeds, and Mutual Aid, who are at every outdoor concert in CA DONATING time, skill, and supplies. 



> The one thing a union can do is keep someone who has better education with experience from being promoted when some deadbeat has more senority. Promoting one individual who has less senority but more education would be detrimental to their message of "equal opportunity" to all. But for the EMTs who want no part of education, unions are great as they can protect the employees when their employers try to force mandatory educational inservices on them.


 
Again, what are you talking about? Better education? If the person has an RN education, go be a nurse. If the person has a BA in European Literature, go be a professor. If the person has just got there Medic license they will be promoted to Paramedic over any EMT, there is no dispute there. What is this dependence on education? Unless it is the education to move to a different job class within the company, what education are you talking about? CE's? Everyone does those already? How is 20yrs as a medic not count as education? If there is a medic who is old and lazy, there are steps that can happen before we start promoting those who have worked less. Everyone who posts about or complains about seniority always focuses on a "deadbeat" as you say. What about the hardworking Medic who just got married and whose wife is having a baby? In a non-seniority based model, mgmt decides who will get promoted, not the amount of time and dedication you put in. Vent, when your back goes out, and they start looking for brand new medics to take your shifts, I hope you can recall what you stated in this post.



> If someone is screwing up to where it puts the patient and my license at risk, I am not going to the union but rather through the proper chain of command and to the state licensing agency if necessary. Patients deserve accountability of those administering medical care. EMS is about the lives of patients and not stuffing boxes on an assembly line. The unions have no interest in patient care or what your responsibilities are to holding a certification or license.


If a pt is put in danger or your partner is put in danger, yes then the union will not protect you solely because you pay dues. The union's interest is in job equality for all employees. Which is most easily attained when employees are not putting anyone in danger. That is not the point here. The point is to communicate w your partner before it gets to that level.



> Again, there are patients involved who must be considered and they are the ones done a great disservice by the unions. You are in California and have not learned anything from Vallejo or the city of Alameda. What about the issues of San Francisco? How about the FF who worked 19 straight shifts? The union supported him. Safe with the public's interest in mind?


 
What issues in SF? Non-union companies like Protransport who pay their EE's garbage, who don't help them keep up on their skills and training, who will buy a new ambulance before they invest in an EE's future with the company and teach them how to drive it C3? My union steward is interested in helping me keep my job. That includes keeping up w all my certs, skills, CE's and all job-related disciplines to a minimum. Non-union does the disservice.



> What about all the BS unions spend millions of dollars of both taxpayers and employees to support their own cause? Hell they don't even think their own employees are smart enough to make an election decision and tell them how to vote as well as taking their money to support the union's favorite candidate or bill that does the public or anyone but themselves any good.



I'm talking about unions at the local level. A good deal of organizing has to be done before we can even start talking about national politics. Thats for the teamsters and SEIU, not for NEMSA yet. First, we have to get people on board who fail to see that the reason they work 40 hours in the week and then get time and a half is because of gains taken by unionism. You do like the weekend don't you?


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## VentMedic (Dec 11, 2009)

Johnny Foley said:


> The union I am referring to - not neccesarily a part or or advocate of - is NEMSA, which is technically a craft union/mutual aid association completely made up of EMS professionals who know the difference btw EMT, MEDIC, IFT, 911 contract, BLS, ALS, CCT, bs, etc. And happier employees, who have collectively organized to solve many issues that mgmt could not - supply requisition, ambulance repair, scheduling conflicts - can offer better pt care. EMS mgmt is inept as far as I have seen it, partly because the *care and transportation of sick and injured individuals is a concept that can never mesh with profits*.


 
Really? What do you think businesses such as hospitals and other transport agencies consider themselves if profit and reimbursement are not considered. 



Johnny Foley said:


> Thats great that there are associations interested in supporting issues in EMS. They get their funding from elsewhere, so what? Is it taxdollars? Is it grants? Donations? Who cares? *The union does not take profits. It pays its full-time employees a living wage as it should,* and it pays its lawyers their fees. All their financial information is available for anyone to see. I'm happy to pay for their services. Put somewhat dramatically: People who help people help people deserve to get paid for it. Deserve much more than a typical hedge fund manager.


 
You are too naive to even discuss finances with. Just a living wage for the managers of unions? 




Johnny Foley said:


> So what I have mentioned women, minorities and the community that attends the SF Pride Parade!? Personal issues!? WTF are you talking about!? Obviously I work in San Francisco, where a majority of my patients fall into one of those three categories. Yes I am concerned for them and yes I make a point of highlighting them because if you haven't figured out from my other post (pro-union), I am interetsed in helping people who many others forget about, i.e. women, minorities, GLBT community, and most importantly, workers. Isn't EMS about the non-judgemental assitance to those in need? Do you ask your pts about there sexual orientation before you treat them? You got the issues Ventmedic.


 
You made your post seem like working the Pride festival as disgusting work.

You also fail to know where the unions have stood where women are concerned in EMS and the FDs. In the early years, women could only find jobs at the NON union EMS agencies because the unions consisting of mostly male members were against women joining. The same for the FDs. The unions cited safety and a lot of other inferior crap to "marital" problems or whatever else. This went on for over 10 years. 



Johnny Foley said:


> As far as volunteering goes: check out SF Pride Medical Committee. All-volunteer medical staff there for the whole weekend. Skill levels from MD to First Responder, from as far away as British Colombia. There are volunteers who have been working there for 25 yrs - FOR FREE. All supplies are donated including ECG's, fluids and IVs, splinting gear, AED's, backboards, cushman carts that act as ambulances to get through the 250,000 people (biggest outdoor festival in CA). As far as other festivals go, check out RockMeds, and Mutual Aid, who are at every outdoor concert in CA DONATING time, skill, and supplies.


 
I already know some of the medical sponsor there which are CPMC, Kaiser and SFGH. CHW did a couple of events but they are not part of the regulars. MDs and RNs did donate their time. Some of the equipment like back boards and AEDs, was "loaned" not donated. The crews on the ambulances were paid. Those that did want to help out at the booths for free could do also but don't make it sound like anyone was forced to work for free. The companies that donated the supplies also got a decent tax benefit. 




Johnny Foley said:


> Again, what are you talking about? Better education? If the person has an RN education, go be a nurse. If the person has a BA in European Literature, go be a professor. If the person has just got there Medic license they will be promoted to Paramedic over any EMT, there is no dispute there. What is this dependence on education? Unless it is the education to move to a different job class within the company, what education are you talking about? CE's? Everyone does those already? How is 20yrs as a medic not count as education?


 
Just once I wish someone could equate education and EMS as going together. WTF are you talking about? RN is a different profession. BA in European literature? An RN would get a BSN which is something that goes with the nursing profession. Someone in EMS should get at least a two year degree in EMS. Right now it takes just a mere 1060 hours to be a Paramedic in California which is less than the clinical hours other professions need in their two year degree program. Look at the pathetic state scope of practice for EMS. It is a true embarrassment. It is not secret that the unions do not want a push for education because of all the "hardship" it would cause making the EMTs do all that studying when they can still be union members after just 110 hours of training. As well, those who advance their education may actually see how the unions actually work against them. 

As long as the unions are as strong as they are and EMS providers continue to support them instead of a national organization for EMS, this profession will remain at a "tech" level and be considered just a job rather than a career. For a middle aged profession, it is now way behind any of the much younger healthcare professions that did not rely on unions. 



Johnny Foley said:


> If there is a medic who is old and lazy, there are steps that can happen before we start promoting those who have worked less. Everyone who posts about or complains about seniority always focuses on a "deadbeat" as you say. What about the hardworking Medic who just got married and whose wife is having a baby? In a non-seniority based model, mgmt decides who will get promoted, not the amount of time and dedication you put in. Vent, when your back goes out, and they start looking for brand new medics to take your shifts, I hope you can recall what you stated in this post.


 
So a married medic should get promoted before a single one? What does the number of kids he has have to do with him being a Paramedic? What about his contributions as a medic and striving to continue his education? By education I don't mean taking a weekend cert or an online CEU. 



Johnny Foley said:


> If a pt is put in danger or your partner is put in danger, yes then the union will not protect you solely because you pay dues. The union's interest is in job equality for all employees. Which is most easily attained when employees are not putting anyone in danger. That is not the point here. The point is to communicate w your partner before it gets to that level.


 
You just seem to miss the patient care issue. Do you also understand a responsibility to the certification or license you hold? That goes beyond the buddy buddy thing. 




Johnny Foley said:


> What issues in SF? Non-union companies like Protransport who pay their EE's garbage, who don't help them keep up on their skills and training, who will buy a new ambulance before they invest in an EE's future with the company and teach them how to drive it C3? My union steward is interested in helping me keep my job. That includes keeping up w all my certs, skills, CE's and all job-related disciplines to a minimum. Non-union does the disservice.


 
They may not be the best company but do you think someone with just 110 hours of training can do better? Even McDonalds offers more hours of training and expects more accountability from its employees. If one of their employees did something to endanger customers or stole property, do you think there wouldn't be an issue to where "talking to your co-worker" is advised? 

There are also situations where the legal system and the state licensing board will hold you just as responsible as the other person because you failed to report an issue involving patient care. 




Johnny Foley said:


> I'm talking about unions at the local level. A good deal of organizing has to be done before we can even start talking about national politics. Thats for the teamsters and SEIU, not for NEMSA yet. First, we have to get people on board who fail to see that the reason they work 40 hours in the week and then get time and a half is because of gains taken by unionism. You do like the weekend don't you?


 
The reason people get time and a half after 40 is now due to the labor laws of this country. Any one can file a complaint with the Dept. of Labor and it doesn't take a union insulting you by saying the words are too big for union members to understand. 

Many health care professionals are required to work some weekends in most fields. Do you thing the union can change that? No health care offered on weekends? No hospitals? No ambulances? Is this one of their campaign promises that you are falling for?


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 11, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Really? What do you think businesses such as hospitals and other transport agencies consider themselves if profit and reimbursement are not considered.


 
The RN's, MD's, techs, assitants, etc. do not consider profit. The volly's out in the sticks don't either. 




> You are too naive to even discuss finances with. Just a living wage for the managers of unions?



If you have been soured on unions because of things that have happened to you in the past, fine. But to let misconceptions and stereotypes force you to ignore new developements such as NEMSA, and to ignore the possibility that unions can be improved upon, is the true naivete. Sure the Teamsters, SEIU, AFL-CIO all have had their issues, but NEMSA is young, and as stated before comprised of EMS workers. And as stated below and in other posts, it is the union locally that will help employees. Regardless of the dues paid. As long as there is a support system in place for when the company decides to use its muscle, my dues have been well spent. 






> You made your post seem like working the Pride festival as disgusting work.


No, you just missed the point. And its volunteering, not working.


> You also fail to know where the unions have stood where women are concerned in EMS and the FDs. In the early years, women could only find jobs at the NON union EMS agencies because the unions consisting of mostly male members were against women joining. The same for the FDs. The unions cited safety and a lot of other inferior crap to "marital" problems or whatever else. This went on for over 10 years.


Thats the "early years". And even if that goes on now, I have not seen any of it. Speculating but, the IAFF probably acts the same as the PBA in that they do the bidding of its members who can be all about cronyism, traditionalism, and the 'old boys club'. That is not the way EMS works now, and with committed EE's and union stewards will not even deserve a mention in the future.



> Those that did want to help out at the booths for free could do also but don't make it sound like anyone was forced to work for free. The companies that donated the supplies also got a decent tax benefit.



You missed the point again. The people who worked did so of their own volition. They VOLUNTEERED. That means that they wanted to give their time and effort for free. That basic idea - offering assistance that you can afford to give - is one of the key parts of EMS. 



> Just once I wish someone could equate education and EMS as going together. WTF are you talking about? RN is a different profession. BA in European literature? An RN would get a BSN which is something that goes with the nursing profession. Someone in EMS should get at least a two year degree in EMS. Right now it takes just a mere 1060 hours to be a Paramedic in California which is less than the clinical hours other professions need in their two year degree program. Look at the pathetic state scope of practice for EMS. It is a true embarrassment. It is not secret that the unions do not want a push for education because of all the "hardship" it would cause making the EMTs do all that studying when they can still be union members after just 110 hours of training. As well, those who advance their education may actually see how the unions actually work against them.


 
Show me one documented instance where a union discouraged a member from getting more educated within their career. Thats BS. Again what education are you talking about? You say study this and educate that, but what are you specifically talking about? 

The argument was: does someone with more education deserve a promotion over someone with more experience. What education?! If an EMT goes Medic than he will get promoted. No union has a problem with that. If someone gets more education than a medic, than I guess that would make them a CCT-P. But what else are you referring to. You kind of allude to making EMS into a 2 year certificate program or AA or something. If thats what you mean, than OK, we can discuss that in 5 or 10 years after you invent it, but for now, a medic with more seniority will never get bypassed by a medic with less seniority and anything else, i.e. more "education", closer ties to mgmt, better looks, etc... 



> As long as the unions are as strong as they are and EMS providers continue to support them instead of a national organization for EMS, this profession will remain at a "tech" level and be considered just a job rather than a career. For a middle aged profession, it is now way behind any of the much younger healthcare professions that did not rely on unions.



You are nuts to think that EMS unions are now "strong" and that EMS providers support them. That is bonkers. As for whether or not this job is a career, ask anyone in SAR, Ski Patrol, Swift Water Rescue, Nat. Park Service, YOSAR (yosemite seach and rescue), FD, all the lifetime medics and EMT's with decent wages WON for them by UNION INVOLVEMENT. 

If you are really for the boosting up of our profession you will realize that pro-company will only take you as far as the bottom line allows. And if you are looking for a National EMS association, stop dancing around it and just say you are looking for a national EMS union.




> So a married medic should get promoted before a single one? What does the number of kids he has have to do with him being a Paramedic? What about his contributions as a medic and striving to continue his education? By education I don't mean taking a weekend cert or an online CEU.



WHAT DO YOU MEAN EDUCATION?? 






> They may not be the best company but do you think someone with just 110 hours of training can do better? Even McDonalds offers more hours of training and expects more accountability from its employees. If one of their employees did something to endanger customers or stole property, do you think there wouldn't be an issue to where "talking to your co-worker" is advised?



No. As I said to the other poster, be a man.



> There are also situations where the legal system and the state licensing board will hold you just as responsible as the other person because you failed to report an issue involving patient care.



Thats every situation. Better to have a solid relationship with your partner and not police him all the time. That is too much paranoia and just fosters distrust, which is one of the worst possible things to have between someone who literally has your life in their hands and vice versa.







> The reason people get time and a half after 40 is now due to the labor laws of this country. Any one can file a complaint with the Dept. of Labor and it doesn't take a union insulting you by saying the words are too big for union members to understand.



The union gave you those labor laws. Don't forget.


> Many health care professionals are required to work some weekends in most fields. Do you thing the union can change that? No health care offered on weekends? No hospitals? No ambulances? Is this one of their campaign promises that you are falling for?


[/QUOTE]

That was a joke. But right about the same time that the unions won your grandfather the 8hr day and overtime, they also won for him weekends. I think you need to get more education on US labor history


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## JPINFV (Dec 11, 2009)

Johnny Foley said:


> The RN's, MD's, techs, assitants, etc. do not consider profit. The volly's out in the sticks don't either.


Wow... just wow. You apparently have absolutely no clue about physician groups competing for hospital contracts, do you? There's a reason why a visit to the ER normally gets two bills. Only one of those is from the hospital. 



> Show me one documented instance where a union discouraged a member from getting more educated within their career. Thats BS. Again what education are you talking about? You say study this and educate that, but what are you specifically talking about?



Well. For starters, all other things being equal besides time and education, I'd argue that someone getting a raise due to seniority who only has a certificate over someone with, say, a BS in emergency medical care to be a good reason not to spend money on a degree. Oh, and yes. BS programs in EMS actually exist. 

http://www.llu.edu/allied-health/sahp/emc/programinfo.page



> That was a joke. But right about the same time that the unions won your grandfather the 8hr day and overtime, they also won for him weekends. I think you need to get more education on US labor history



Given the same amount of time in a work week, I'd rather have a 10 or 12 hour work day than an 8 hour work day even if I didn't get overtime for a 10 or 12 hour shift. Heck, with a 10 hour shift, I'd even be able to get an extra day off. Thanks unions for destroying employee choice in work day length!


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## daedalus (Dec 11, 2009)

I may be biased, but I am pro-union. I grew up in a pro union house with my father and most of my family on his side working in the movie industry, where we received probably one of the best health care plans that exist because of the union. When I was 12, I had to undergo a major heart surgery, which was covered by our plan and we were sent to see some of the leading pediatric heart surgeons/cardiologists and I had my surgery in one of the top centers for pediatric heart surgery in the nation. Every year after that, I had to see the pediatric cardiologist which again, was covered with almost no co-pay. My family (not rich by ANY definition) received the support needed from the union and work, and I came out ok.

My work has a union, and I have go to say, I am far happier here than at my transport job in Los Angeles. Also, I have noticed quite the opposite in regards to education, pay, promotions, and employee morale. Educated people get promoted, and in our bargaining agreement, if you advance your education to an AS in Paramedic, you get a raise, and than a bigger raise after you complete a bachelors degree in any field. There is no us against them environment, and I have yet to see an instance of the union protecting scum bags who do not belong here. Compared to my non-union transport job, the employees here are far more willing to go the extra mile for our employer. 

But than again, this is just my limited experience. Vent and JP are probably spot on in the bigger picture with most unions.


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## VentMedic (Dec 11, 2009)

> The RN's, MD's, techs, assitants, etc. do not consider profit. The volly's out in the sticks don't either.


LOL! Do you not even read the Bay area newspapers? Believe it or not but health care and the financial status of their companies are big issues there. 



> You missed the point again. The people who worked did so of their own volition. They VOLUNTEERED. That means that they wanted to give their time and effort for free. That basic idea - offering assistance that you can afford to give - is one of the key parts of EMS.


 
No I didn't. I clearly stated that the ambulances that were there were PAID. Anybody (EMTs) wanting to help out at the booths sponsored by the hospitals were volunteers along with the hospital's paid staff. The EMTs that did volunteer were wearing the hospital volunteer shirts and not that of their EMS agency. We also had some from the business offices volunteer. It was not just an "EMS" thing. 



> That is not the way EMS works now, and with committed EE's and union stewards will not even deserve a mention in the future.


 
If the issues are no longer present as they were way back when, why did you mention minorities and women? Since these are no longer issues for the PROFESSIONAL, a union is not necessary. It is those who lack education that require a union which I suppose the EMTs would qualify. However, how are the unions going to handle the new levels? 



> The union gave you those labor laws. Don't forget.


 
We do have a government in the U.S. which is for everybody and not just union members. 

One must also remember that this was again for those who had very little to no education. 

If you actually follow the history of unions you will find it is nothing to brag about especially with the corruption and blood shed they have caused throughout history.  I would put much more credit to the legislative processes rather than the measures the unions took.


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## VentMedic (Dec 11, 2009)

daedalus said:


> I may be biased, but I am pro-union. I grew up in a pro union house with my father and most of my family on his side working in the movie industry, where we received probably one of the best health care plans that exist because of the union.


 
I grew up in a union house also with AFL-CIO and Teamsters.  However, my parents did give me a broad education about them and allowed me to make up my own mind when I entered college.   I also got to see my father carrying a shotgun on a picket line at the coal mines.   While his benefits give us a decent life, the disruption of life it also caused was pretty overwhelming for some families.  

I've also seen some pretty ugly sights happening in downtown SF over the past few months.  I also remember the union members who boycotted the displaced Katrina victims a few years ago in fear they would replace the locals for jobs.  Sad statement for any organization and especially those that claim "equality".


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## daedalus (Dec 11, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> I grew up in a union house also with AFL-CIO and Teamsters.  However, my parents did give me a broad education about them and allowed me to make up my own mind when I entered college.   I also got to see my father carrying a shotgun on a picket line at the coal mines.   While his benefits give us a decent life, the disruption of life it also caused was pretty overwhelming for some families.
> 
> I've also seen some pretty ugly sights happening in downtown SF over the past few months.  I also remember the union members who boycotted the displaced Katrina victims a few years ago in fear they would replace the locals for jobs.  Sad statement for any organization and especially those that claim "equality".



I do remember the long periods where my father would be out of work because of another union striking (for example, the writer's strike did put everyone else on de facto strike because there was no work for the other production crew members). So you take the good with the bad, I agree.


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 11, 2009)

> JPINFV said:
> 
> 
> > Wow... just wow. You apparently have absolutely no clue about physician groups competing for hospital contracts, do you? There's a reason why a visit to the ER normally gets two bills. Only one of those is from the hospital.
> ...



This is more naivete and hair-splitting. What kind of hours you get is determined by your CBA and your company. My CBA states that I can work 10's, 12's, or 24s. My union GOT me that choice. If you are looking to work the bare minimum - as you stated above - why not work for Protrans? A slacker who is anti-union? you are a Protrans wet dream. And aren't you the guy who posted that Mike Rowe quote how Americans have declared "war on work"?


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## VentMedic (Dec 11, 2009)

daedalus said:


> I do remember the long periods where my father would be out of work because of another union striking (for example, the writer's strike did put everyone else on de facto strike because there was no work for the other production crew members). So you take the good with the bad, I agree.


 
I think the longest strike I remember was around 7 months. A lot of families were hurting during that time.

In CA, any strikes are a mere formality and I just love the money I make being flown out there with my RN pals. All expenses paid and wages that are fabulous. Almost all contract workers are guaranteed 5 - 10 days. Even if they strikers say the strike will only last 3 days, they are locked out for more. But again these are mere formalities. 

However, the unprofessional display of employee behavior demonstrated by the SEIU in that city is an out right embarrassment. The fact that some of the ambulance employees wanted to honor that mess on a couple of their walkouts is even more absurd. If you are part of health care, you should not strike or threaten patients by telling them you are walking off the job and they can care for themselves.

This thread will be interesting reading for some of the health care managers in the Bay area. Although, I seriously doubt if all ambulance employees think like Johnny unless I'm giving them too much credit. But, it gives us something to talk about.


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## JPINFV (Dec 11, 2009)

> A physician on down to the lowly PCA will treat anyone who walks or is carried through the ER doors, regardless of their ability to pay, and will do so regardless of how the Hospital is fairing financially, unless that hospital closes due to city gov mismanagement, not union involvement.


To an extent, yes. However, assuming no immediately life threatening condition exists (including active labor. Hence no EMTALA issues), a physician is free to deny any patient care for what ever reason. A patient's ability to pay could very well affect admissions decisions or what tests are provided. 




> I stand corrected on the EMS educational point, although the course description smacks of management. It doesn't state anywhere that it will train you to be a better field provider. Also, there is no mention of any field internship, (which I will no doubt get trashed for saying so) which can and will teach a student much more than any class. SFFD medic internships run min. 480hrs and on the avg go to 600 hrs or so. Nonetheless, within my union shop raises are given to everyone, not one or the other, based on seniority. You put in your time working, not reading, you will get rewarded. And again, neither I in any of my posts, or any other union stance, says that laziness is rewarded. When I speak of EMS workers universally, I am referrring to my experience that out of every 100 EMT's I have met, maybe 2 have not carried their load. I think that is much, much less than any other industry's status quo.



Yea... a course on pathology is for management and/or can be effectively taught in the field. Everything known to man about physical diagnosis can easily be taught in the field. Sorry skippy, not everything can be taught in the field. Nor does everything in the class room have to do with management. Additionally, this isn't a paramedic training program. It's a degree in emergency medical care. It's like saying that because people getting a BS in biology doesn't have to spend time in a research lab that said degree is useless. Similarly, how much education does the average SFFD paramedic have? At LLU's BS in EMC program, 6/8 are paramedics with one non-medical (probably their ethics person) and 1 RRT. Additionally, 2 have doctorates, 4 have masters, and 2 have bacholors degrees. Are you going to tell me that the average SFFD paramedic has a masters degree? 

Regardless, did you even try reading the class descriptions?

" Assignment includes interaction with cardiac patients and observation of diagnostic studies in the clinical setting. "

"Additional requirement of two autopsy viewings and written report."

"Students develop, implement, and evaluate project for in-depth experience in area of choice. Projects may include research, _community projects_, and/or education, management, or clinical affiliations. Students work under direct supervision of assigned faculty mentor. "
[emphasis added since you brought up community service]

...anyhow, I guess in union world paramedics don't have to understand "current issues related to infectious disease, with a special emphasis on principles of epidemiology and etiology of HIV/AIDS. Discussion of disease pathology and modes of transmission compared with hepatitis, tuberculosis, and influenza." Union members can't get infectious diseases. 




Johnny Foley said:


> why not work for Protrans? A slacker who is anti-union? you are a Protrans wet dream. And aren't you the guy who posted that Mike Rowe quote how Americans have declared "war on work"?



Hahahahahaha. Pfft... hahahahaha. Sorry skippy, you don't get into medical school by being a slacker. Hell, I don't care if the best ambulance company in the world offered me an awesome benefits package to come work for them. At this point in my life, my next 3 and a half years are essentially spoken for.


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 11, 2009)

> VentMedic said:
> 
> 
> > LOL! Do you not even read the Bay area newspapers? Believe it or not but health care and the financial status of their companies are big issues there.
> ...



You and your education again. The union will stand for anyone regardless of education level, and at any point in their educational careers. You seem to think that a guy with a diploma should be treated like a prince. At what point do we begin to treat him like that? I know of at least two ER MD's that work for Kaiser who got their degrees ONLINE! "This doesn't look like the picture...")

And the majority of blood shed in union related conflict was workers' blood. And you just lost all credibility by saying that yoiu would put more credibility to legislative processes than what the union gained. Who do you think leaned on their representatives to get thos gains? Why are political gains always creditted to the pols who do what they are told? And you trust pols more than union stewards who do the same job as you? You're BS-ing me now right?

Again,


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## JPINFV (Dec 11, 2009)

> Thats Kaiser (who is perpetually mismanaged in the Bay Area) and Sutter (who will look for the lowest bidder on everything from Transport contracts to affiliated Rehab facilities). SFGH will take anyone, no matter what. I can't tell you how many BS repatriation calls I have run, but here is the worst: 20 y/o female, MVC on highway, drivers side window was open and during the rollover her hand went out the window, was crushed, middle three fingers amputated, thumb and pinky crushed, pelvic fx, xport to SFGH cause it is our trauma center, three hours later after it is determined that she is a Kaiser pt gets XPORTED again, not to nearest Kaiser, but to 2nd nearest, not even in SF county, because Kaiser SF had no beds. So, back on the highway for the highway MVC victim, cause Kaiser wants their pt back. That is my point of how EMS and profits do not and cannot mesh. Kaiser mgmt and admin made that decision not MD's RN's and I almost refused to take her.



Refused to take her on what grounds? If she's being transported from a trauma center then either that trauma center lacks the ability to care for the patient or the patient is stable enough to be transfered. If the patient is unstable, then the hospital is going to have some issues when an EMTALA complaint is made. Can you prove that her care was compromised by being transported? 



> I know of at least two ER MD's that work for Kaiser who got their degrees ONLINE!



Considering that California is one of the most stringent states when it comes to medical licensing (fun tidbit: several other states defers to California's list of approved foreign medical schools for determining which applicants to certify), I can tell you that, without question, there are no online medical schools. Now, sure, many schools audio or videotape their lectures and post them online which allows students to determine how they study best, but there are no online medical schools.


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## VentMedic (Dec 11, 2009)

Johnny Foley said:


> You and your education again. The union will stand for anyone regardless of education level, and at any point in their educational careers. You seem to think that a guy with a diploma should be treated like a prince. At what point do we begin to treat him like that? I know of at least two *ER MD's that work for Kaiser who got their degrees ONLINE! "This doesn't look like the picture...")*


 
But does the unions stand for education? No.

Where have the unions been?  I have not seen any union members at the National Educators meetings.  The only ones that I have seen have been opposed to any increase in education because of the incredible hardships even these new levels might present.   Imagine the thought of an EMT spending over 200 hours in training!! How horrible!!  Why that is almost as much as the CA Paramedic!

And, it looks like someone was pulling your leg.  Of course doctors in their earlier days of college can get online classes. Almost every college offers them for at least the general education classes.  As well, a few professors do videotape their lectures.  But, that is by no means a "mail order" type of class. 

I guess it is easy to see why *YOU *would need a union. 




Johnny Foley said:


> And the majority of blood shed in union related conflict was workers' blood. And you just lost all credibility by saying that yoiu would put more credibility to legislative processes than what the union gained. Who do you think leaned on their representatives to get thos gains? Why are political gains always creditted to the pols who do what they are told? And you trust pols more than union stewards who do the same job as you? You're BS-ing me now right?
> 
> Again,


 
Read your history and find out at whose hands those workers died by. 

Oops!  I forgot.  That might fall under "education" and we wouldn't ever want to demand that of you.


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## VentMedic (Dec 11, 2009)

> Thats Kaiser (who is perpetually mismanaged in the Bay Area) and Sutter (who will look for the lowest bidder on everything from Transport contracts to affiliated Rehab facilities). SFGH will take anyone, no matter what. I can't tell you how many BS repatriation calls I have run, but here is the worst: 20 y/o female, MVC on highway, drivers side window was open and during the rollover her hand went out the window, was crushed, middle three fingers amputated, thumb and pinky crushed, pelvic fx, xport to SFGH cause it is our trauma center, three hours later after it is determined that she is a Kaiser pt gets XPORTED again, not to nearest Kaiser, but to 2nd nearest, not even in SF county, because Kaiser SF had no beds. So, back on the highway for the highway MVC victim, cause Kaiser wants their pt back. That is my point of how EMS and profits do not and cannot mesh. Kaiser mgmt and admin made that decision not MD's RN's and I almost refused to take her.


 
Wow! You know very little about the hospitals and trauma in SF.  But then, if you are with Protransport, you may not be involved with trauma patients and this is just heresay for you.

If the patient is at a trauma center and can be safely moved to another facility, for either specialty or insurance reasons, they will be transported. 

SFGH is the trauma center.   Other facilities will take Kaiser patients until a bed opens up.  If the patient is stable for transfer, a CCT with an RN is used to get the patient back to Kaiser. 



> three fingers amputated, thumb and pinky crushed,


 
If the patient has damage that requires microsurgery they will be transported to Davies Hospital, Buncke group of physicians, if the patient does not require interventions for more serious injury at SFGH.

SFGH does not have a stat cath lab but CHW St. Mary's, Kaiser-SF and CPMC-Pacific Campus or UCSF Parnassus does.   Thus, a STEMI should go to one 

This is in the best interest of the patient.  Too bad if it inconveniences you.


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 11, 2009)

> Yea... a course on pathology is for management and/or can be effectively taught in the field. Everything known to man about physical diagnosis can easily be taught in the field. Sorry skippy, not everything can be taught in the field. Nor does everything in the class room have to do with management. Additionally, this isn't a paramedic training program. It's a degree in emergency medical care. It's like saying that because people getting a BS in biology doesn't have to spend time in a research lab that said degree is useless. Similarly, how much education does the average SFFD paramedic have? At LLU's BS in EMC program, 6/8 are paramedics with one non-medical (probably their ethics person) and 1 RRT. Additionally, 2 have doctorates, 4 have masters, and 2 have bacholors degrees. Are you going to tell me that the average SFFD paramedic has a masters degree?
> 
> Regardless, did you even try reading the class descriptions?
> 
> ...



Not only would I rather have an SFFD medic work on me when I was going into arrest than someone with a EMC degree from Loma Linda, I would rather have a drink with them too. Do you understand the humor in the fact that you are attending a christian school while quoting that you are going to take special classes on etiology of HIV/AIDS? I guarantee that sometime during that class your instructor will say that HIV is transmitted by homosexuals.

And, I bet anything I know more than you about H1N1. My Paramedic CES coordinator gave a free class...


And, again, you will eventually wise up to the fact that things learned in the field are far superior to things learned in the class. (Please refer to my post above about the Kaiser ER docs who got their degrees online). Granted, things learned in the class can be practiced and implemented in the field. But they need to be practiced in the field under the closeful watch of a preceptor. Did you ever notice the difference between a CPR dummy and a real person? The real person's ribcage can crack when you do CPR correctly. EMS is a craft; thats why they are called interns, which is another term for apprentice. 




> Hahahahahaha. Pfft... hahahahaha. Sorry skippy, you don't get into medical school by being a slacker. Hell, I don't care if the best ambulance company in the world offered me an awesome benefits package to come work for them. At this point in my life, my next 3 and a half years are essentially spoken for.



To clarify, everyone I know who is in Medical School, or planning to go, says Pre-Med; its connotaions are that of becoming a doctor. I think you are in EMC school, right?


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## JPINFV (Dec 11, 2009)

Johnny Foley said:


> Not only would I rather have an SFFD medic work on me when I was going into arrest than someone with a EMC degree from Loma Linda, I would rather have a drink with them too. Do you understand the humor in the fact that you are attending a christian school while quoting that you are going to take special classes on etiology of HIV/AIDS? I guarantee that sometime during that class your instructor will say that HIV is transmitted by homosexuals.


Where did I say that I have now, nor ever attended LLU? Oh, and apparently schools affiliated with religions don't teach about STDs? I dare you to go on to Student Doctor Network and make a thread asking if LLU, New York Medical College, Georgetown, Loyola, Creighton, and St. Louis University medical schools teach that STDs are God's gifts to homosexuals. All of those schools, in one manor or another, are affiliated with Christianity (respectively, 7th Day Adventist, local Catholic Diocese, and the last four are all Jesuit schools).




> And, again, you will eventually wise up to the fact that things learned in the field are far superior to things learned in the class. (Please refer to my post above about the Kaiser ER docs who got their degrees online). Granted, things learned in the class can be practiced and implemented in the field. But they need to be practiced in the field under the closeful watch of a preceptor. Did you ever notice the difference between a CPR dummy and a real person? The real person's ribcage can crack when you do CPR correctly. EMS is a craft; thats why they are called interns, which is another term for apprentice.


Do you even know what the requirments for a medical degree are? I guarantee you that the state of California will not issue medical degrees to applicants who completed online medical school. Outside of medical school, I don't give a damn where someone when for some other degree when applying for a medical license. Should people be denied an EMT-I certification in California because they got an AA in humanities online? 




> To clarify, everyone I know who is in Medical School, or planning to go, says Pre-Med; its connotaions are that of becoming a doctor. I think you are in EMC school, right?


No. I am a first year medical student at Western University of Health Sciences in Pomona.


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 11, 2009)

> VentMedic said:
> 
> 
> > Wow! You know very little about the hospitals and trauma in SF.  But then, if you are with Protransport, you may not be involved with trauma patients and this is just heresay for you.
> ...



And again Ventmedic, you missed the point entirely. A transport SFGH to Kaiser south city doesn't inconvenience me in the least; rather it inconveniences the girl who was JUST IN AN MVC ON THE HIGHWAY! Kaiser decides that they want their patient back so that all interventions and surgeries performed can be billed by Kaiser, so this poor girl who is sobbing because she is 20 y/o and about to be w/o 5 fingers on her left hand, is going for a ride in the back of an ambulance on the HIGHWAY - which if you have ever ridden in at all, you know is not a smooth ride, especially in SF - cause she is a Kaiser pt. PLUS - no lie - Kaiser said to leave on the c-collar, "they would clear her C-spine at their facility". Do you know how much it sucks being in a collar? She was stable. Transport was technically indicated, but sure as S**T pretty inconvenient for her. Thats why I almost refused it.


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## JPINFV (Dec 11, 2009)

I curious as to how your union would have protected you from being terminated for refusing a call.


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## daedalus (Dec 11, 2009)

> And, again, you will eventually wise up to the fact that things learned in the field are far superior to things learned in the class. (Please refer to my post above about the Kaiser ER docs who got their degrees online). Granted, things learned in the class can be practiced and implemented in the field. But they need to be practiced in the field under the closeful watch of a preceptor. Did you ever notice the difference between a CPR dummy and a real person? The real person's ribcage can crack when you do CPR correctly. EMS is a craft; thats why they are called interns, which is another term for apprentice.



1. You cannot obtain a medical degree and practice in the state of california with an "online medical degree". As JP has already told you. In fact, there are no online medical degrees. You must attend a accredited osteopathic or allopathic US medical school, or a foreign medical school and apply for a US residency. You must also have a minimum of a year of biological science, a year of inorganic chemistry, and a year of organic chemistry from an accredited college or university prior to gaining entry to a California medical school, and prior to be licensed in California.

2. Classroom learning is essential to learning the basic medical sciences which establish a foundation to practice medicine. You are absolutely wrong with your assumptions. I will take a Loma Linda graduate who is up on the latest cardiopulmonary science and research any day if I were to go into arrest.


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## daedalus (Dec 11, 2009)

Johnny Foley said:


> And again Ventmedic, you missed the point entirely. A transport SFGH to Kaiser south city doesn't inconvenience me in the least; rather it inconveniences the girl who was JUST IN AN MVC ON THE HIGHWAY! Kaiser decides that they want their patient back so that all interventions and surgeries performed can be billed by Kaiser, so this poor girl who is sobbing because she is 20 y/o and about to be w/o 5 fingers on her left hand, is going for a ride in the back of an ambulance on the HIGHWAY - which if you have ever ridden in at all, you know is not a smooth ride, especially in SF - cause she is a Kaiser pt. PLUS - no lie - Kaiser said to leave on the c-collar, "they would clear her C-spine at their facility". Do you know how much it sucks being in a collar? She was stable. Transport was technically indicated, but sure as S**T pretty inconvenient for her. Thats why I almost refused it.


You do not understand the economics of health care. This much is painfully obvious. There are many reasons that the patient was transported to kaiser, and most of those reasons benefit the patient herself.


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 11, 2009)

daedalus said:


> You do not understand the economics of health care. This much is painfully obvious. There are many reasons that the patient was transported to kaiser, and most of those reasons benefit the patient herself.



Sure, I get that. But three hours after she rolled her car and lost her hand?! Are you kidding me?! Give me any reason that she shouldn't have been given a bed at SFGH or even Kaiser SF. I guarantee that if you were that girl, the last place on earth you would want to be is in a car on the highway, much less an ambulance designed to get places fast, not long distances smoothly. I rolled my car when I was 16 on a highway in NY. For maybe 2 years after that I was anxious anytime I was in a car that was braking even just lightly on the highway. There is no decent argument for why a stable pt s/p MVC should be forced back onto the highway to fulfill contract requirements, so don't even try it.

And PS, the phrase that you used "Economics of Health Care" is an oxymoron. I don't deny the realities of it, but it is a backwards concept nonetheless. 

And to JPINV, it is illegal for EMS to refuse a call for any reason other than safety for the crew. I ALMOST refused it, and had I, the union couldn't have helped me. The union is fair, unlike Kaiser.


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## JPINFV (Dec 11, 2009)

Johnny Foley said:


> And to JPINV, it is illegal for EMS to refuse a call for any reason other than safety for the crew. I ALMOST refused it, and had I, the union couldn't have helped me. The union is fair, unlike Kaiser.



Err... if your including non-emergent transports (such as the Kaiser transport) in the definition of EMS, then you're wrong. Yes, the contracted 911 company can't refuse 911 calls. Any other call outside of 911 calls can be refused. There is no duty to act forcing an ambulance company to transport a dialysis patient. However, the refusal of calls should be handled at the dispatch and administrative level and not the EMT level. An EMT refusing to transport a discharged patient from the hospital is not abandonment. It is, however, a reason for termination.


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## VentMedic (Dec 11, 2009)

Johnny Foley said:


> And again Ventmedic, you missed the point entirely. A transport SFGH to Kaiser south city doesn't inconvenience me in the least; rather it inconveniences the girl who was JUST IN AN MVC ON THE HIGHWAY! Kaiser decides that they want their patient back so that all interventions and surgeries performed can be billed by Kaiser, so this poor girl who is sobbing because she is 20 y/o and about to be w/o 5 fingers on her left hand, is going for a ride in the back of an ambulance on the HIGHWAY - which if you have ever ridden in at all, you know is not a smooth ride, especially in SF - cause she is a Kaiser pt. PLUS - no lie - Kaiser said to leave on the c-collar, "they would clear her C-spine at their facility". Do you know how much it sucks being in a collar? She was stable. Transport was technically indicated, but sure as S**T pretty inconvenient for her. Thats why I almost refused it.


 
If SFGH kept every patient that entered their doors, they would have 0 beds ever.  What would they do with the fresh traumas?  Hospitals do not have an unlimited supply of beds.    I can think of other reasons she is sobbing and most of them probably have to do with a disgruntled EMT b*&+$ ing all the way.   Believe it or not some patients are in C-Collars for months.   They do serve a purpose. 

Originally Posted by *Johnny Foley* 

 
_



Not only would I rather have an SFFD medic work on me when I was going into arrest than someone with a EMC degree from Loma Linda, I would rather have a drink with them too. Do you understand the humor in the fact that you are attending a christian school while quoting that you are going to take special classes on etiology of HIV/AIDS? I guarantee that sometime during that class your instructor will say that HIV is transmitted by homosexuals.

Click to expand...

_ 
_What an insult to the SFFD medics! Believe it or not but some do have an education and some have graduated from LLU.   Many would like to know more to become the best Paramedic they can be.  _

Your knowledge of education is even less than that of unions.  Of course, you also know very little about LLU or even HIV. 




> Originally Posted by *JPINFV*
> Err... if your including non-emergent transports (such as the Kaiser transport) in the definition of EMS, then you're wrong. *Yes, the contracted 911 company can't refuse 911 calls.* Any other call outside of 911 calls can be refused. There is no duty to act forcing an ambulance company to transport a dialysis patient. However, the refusal of calls should be handled at the dispatch and administrative level and not the EMT level. An EMT refusing to transport a discharged patient from the hospital is not abandonment. It is, however, a reason for termination.


 
He doesn't have to worry about contracted 911 calls since AMR backs up SFFD.


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## JPINFV (Dec 11, 2009)

Johnny Foley said:


> I guarantee that sometime during that class your instructor will say that HIV is transmitted by homosexuals.



Also, just a quick note. Anyone who told you that homosexuals can't transmit HIV lied to you. Sexual preference doesn't equate to some sort of magical immune system that defeats HIV.


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## daedalus (Dec 11, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> Also, just a quick note. Anyone who told you that homosexuals can't transmit HIV lied to you. Sexual preference doesn't equate to some sort of magical immune system that defeats HIV.



What?? I don't think that is what he was trying to say. I think he meant that at Christian schools, they would teach that HIV was invented by God as a weapon against homosexuals. (Which of course, they do not teach that way, at least one would hope).


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## JPINFV (Dec 11, 2009)

daedalus said:


> What?? I don't think that is what he was trying to say. I think he meant that at Christian schools, they would teach that HIV was invented by God as a weapon against homosexuals. (Which of course, they do not teach that way, at least one would hope).




Well... of course there's that interpretation too. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





However, sometimes it's more fun to


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## VentMedic (Dec 11, 2009)

Considering all the HIV/AIDS research Loma Linda has done, I would be surprised if they made negative statements against any one group.   It would make the work they publish less credible to the world of medicine.


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 12, 2009)

*Recap*

People who have been responding to this thread seem altogether humorless and cold. The HIV thing was a joke, completely lost on these posters. 

The fact that not one of you posters showed any concern or understanding for the 20 y/o, in your posts, or your replies to mine, shows that none of you understand that health care is also about patient advocacy. Yes there are protocols, and algorithms, and policies, and SOP's, but there is also - and needs to be - a level of compassion for your pts. Ventmedic, give me a f***ing break. I wasn't complaining to that girl. I was passing tissues  to her crying mother, and trying desperately to make her as comfortable as I could while the rig magnified every pothole and bump. And if YOU were joking about that, then you need to find something else to joke about. Crying kids are not funny to me.

And Ventmedic, stop trying to "educate" everyone all the time. Yes I know that people are in C-collars sometime, but they get cleared IN THE HOSPITAL, like that girl did. They xrayed her, CT'd her, cleared her neurologically, but kaiser said they wanted it on so THEY could clear her. And yes I know that SFGH has limited beds. Don't patronize me. I also know that a bed can be found UPSTAIRS, out of the ER if necessary. I didn't say keep her in the trauma bay, I said get her somewhere calm and comfortable so she could somehow relax over what had just happened to her. But get em in and get em out like you say...

And yep, you got me. I was wrong about refusing calls being illegal. Way to go EMTLIFE posters. I'm busted.

However, to recap the original points of this post - and I was right about some things, and you all were right about somethings - here are a few indisputable points:

1. A good union is better for workers than no union
This is a non debatable fact. Documented and proven and backed up. And I am speaking about my union, NEMSA, as an example, which if some day down the line gets proven to be crooked too, then I will recant. However, now its gets the benefit of the doubt, because they have done nothing but help my coworkers and I, and the CONCEPT OF UNIONISM IS A GOOD ONE. That is also non-debatable. Workers are stronger together. Mgmt will always try to get over on workers. Historically, and everyday today. That is the nature of free markets, competition, and capitalism. Period.

2. Education is good, but nothing WITHOUT actual field experience.
In any field, any occupation, especially in health care. Every human is different and to think that you can gain the insight into the intricacies of human illness through a classroom environment, WITHOUT putting it into practice (notice that word, PRACTICE), than you will be a poor provider. We are all right on this point. Education is crucial, but means nothing without practice. And I would still rather have a five year or even a three year SFFD medic work me up, or anyone in my family, than anyone with a degree and less experience. If your sole desire in your industry is too make more and more money, than keep going back to school. If your desire is to actually learn, than go on an internship. You lose credibility for what you do when your motivations become clear that all you want to do is to make money. 

And you can get a PA degree online from a million places. and while your physician is off researching for her next journal publication, a PA can DX, and prescribe meds. This is common in Kaisers.

And Vent, what education are you talking about? You still didn't specify. And I will still advocate seniority over education even if you win the f***ing Nobel Prize for Astromicrobiophysioecochemostrology.

3. The "economics of health care" is an oxymoron.
Ask anyone who works and also has volunteered. There are numerous groups. Check out Remote Area Medical, who invented NO-COST healthcare in our country and globally. They are %100 volunteer based. See: 


```
http://www.ramusa.org/learn/media.html
```


```
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Li84p4WL-VE
```

The second you match a pts needs with a hospitals financial bottom line, you lower that person to a stature that is not even human. They are not a liability, or an investment, or a dollar sign. They are a mother, sister, and human being. Yes this is naive, and unrealistic in respect to our economic times and society. But that doesn't change the truth of the point that healthcare shouldn't have anything to do with profit. Period.

This thread has gotten ridiculous. If there are any real arguments to any of the above than please continue, otherwise stop beating a deadhorse.

Vote Union.


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## JPINFV (Dec 12, 2009)

Johnny Foley said:


> And I would still rather have a five year or even a three year SFFD medic work me up, or anyone in my family, than anyone with a degree and less experience. If your sole desire in your industry is too make more and more money, than keep going back to school. If your desire is to actually learn, than go on an internship. You lose credibility for what you do when your motivations become clear that all you want to do is to make money.


You need the classroom before you go into the field. Would you rather have a three year medic with a certification treating you or a 3 year medic with a college degree treating you? Education is a base that you build your practice off of. You can't learn anatomy and physiology in the field and those two fields are the bedrock of your assessment. You can't learn chemistry or pharmacology in the field. Sure, you can learn to push the blue box followed by the red box followed by the periwinkle box in the field. Of course that tells you nothing of the mechanism of action or the like. You can, though, learn those things in a class room. If you want to be an excellent provider at any field, you have to spend time in the classroom before you go into the field. After all, where did that nifty CME class you took on novel H1N1 that you mentioned earlier occur. I'm placing my money that it wasn't in the back of an ambulance. 


> And you can get a PA degree online from a million places. and while your physician is off researching for her next journal publication, a PA can DX, and prescribe meds. This is common in Kaisers.


So it wasn't physicians taking their medical degree online? Were you lying to us or just confused on who took which courses online? Furthermore, PAs and NPs ('mid level providers') diagnose and treat patients all across the country while operating under physician oversight (NPs call it "collaboration"). It's nothing new or unique to Kaiser. Similarly, any PA written prescription must be cosigned by the supervising physician.  Furthermore, a million places? Sure. Heck, there are a million shady medical schools in the Caribbean. It doesn't mean a thing if the schools aren't recognized in California. 

Additionally, who cares if part of the education is online? Here's a little secret. Most medical students don't go all of their lectures, especially when the school records the lecture for us. Heck, the fact that they post the lecture is one of the ways that they count us as "attending" class since physicians are required to have a minimum of 4000 hours of instruction. The vast majority of medical schools don't take attendance for most classes during the preclinical years. 




> Vote Union.



Vote union and you too can slander other health care professionals!


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 12, 2009)

> JPINFV said:
> 
> 
> > You need the classroom before you go into the field. Would you rather have a three year medic with a certification treating you or a 3 year medic with a college degree treating you? Education is a base that you build your practice off of. You can't learn anatomy and physiology in the field and those two fields are the bedrock of your assessment. You can't learn chemistry or pharmacology in the field. Sure, you can learn to push the blue box followed by the red box followed by the periwinkle box in the field. Of course that tells you nothing of the mechanism of action or the like. You can, though, learn those things in a class room. If you want to be an excellent provider at any field, you have to spend time in the classroom before you go into the field. After all, where did that nifty CME class you took on novel H1N1 that you mentioned earlier occur. I'm placing my money that it wasn't in the back of an ambulance
> ...


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## Lifeguards For Life (Dec 12, 2009)

Johnny Foley said:


> > Thats what medical school connotates (connotates means 'means').
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Lifeguards For Life (Dec 12, 2009)

Johnny Foley said:


> People who have been responding to this thread seem altogether humorless and cold. The HIV thing was a joke, completely lost on these posters.
> 
> The fact that not one of you posters showed any concern or understanding for the 20 y/o, in your posts, or your replies to mine, shows that none of you understand that health care is also about patient advocacy. Yes there are protocols, and algorithms, and policies, and SOP's, but there is also - and needs to be - a level of compassion for your pts. Ventmedic, give me a f***ing break. I wasn't complaining to that girl. I was passing tissues  to her crying mother, and trying desperately to make her as comfortable as I could while the rig magnified every pothole and bump. And if YOU were joking about that, then you need to find something else to joke about. Crying kids are not funny to me.
> 
> ...



Mr. Foley,
It is obvious Sir, you lack the mental capacity to actively participate in this debate. Perhaps you would be better served by playing checkers or one of the other many internet based games that are better suited for your entertainment needs and perfectly fitting for your knowledge of EMS, politics, war, and other issues relating to the human condition. I have taken the liberty to provide you a link http://www.zdaily.com/checkers/index.htm


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## VentMedic (Dec 12, 2009)

Johnny Foley said:


> And Vent, what education are you talking about? You still didn't specify. And I will still advocate seniority over education even if you win the f***ing Nobel Prize for Astromicrobiophysioecochemostrology.


 
Unbelievable! You don't even know there is education for EMTs to advance to Paramedic and take A&P classes at the City college in your area? 



Johnny Foley said:


> 3. The "economics of health care" is an oxymoron.
> Ask anyone who works and also has volunteered. There are numerous groups. Check out Remote Area Medical, who invented NO-COST health care in our country and globally. They are %100 volunteer based. See:
> 
> 
> ...


 
Why do you think the hospital system is set up the way it is in SF or any city? Not all can or even should have cath labs or be trauma center. You don't seem to understand that, as much as you like SFGH because it is some convenient, you can not dump all your patients off there especially since you only do BLS IFT. 

You need to sign up for classes at some college in the Bay area that has both EMT and Paramedic. Retake the EMT class and then start in with some A&P courses. I doubt if you have what it takes to be a Paramedic since the concept of patient care and appropriate facilities totally escapes you. Just maybe you can be a better EMT. Luckily you and, of course, the OP are just two employees from ProTransport. But, you display you hideous attitude when picking up patients in the hospital to other health care professionals and to the patients to where you make them cry by telling them some of the crap you have said here, I can almost guarantee ProTransport will again lose some of its contracts. Then, your seniority might be helpful when the layoffs occur.

I doubt if your union will support an unemployed EMT.  There are also many EMTs in the Bay area from all the little mills to where no one has to or should keep an employee who is so disgruntled about patients, hospitals and the ambulance company they work for.


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## JPINFV (Dec 12, 2009)

Johnny Foley said:


> My CES instructor is an EMT-P and has seen and done more than you and your mini little medical school will ever do (needle cricoidthorostomy on her first day of internship.) And I still know more about H1N1 than you.


Amazing that you avoided the question there completely. Did that course occur in the field or in a class room? It's one or the other. Of course the problem is that everyone knows the answer (classroom), but the answer (classroom) doesn't jive with your bias (classroom is useless).



> Your knowledge of 'medical school' reads like you got it off of a course objectives section of a college website. PS, you totally missed my point way back when I asked if you are going to be a doctor. Everyone I know who says "medical school" is refering to an MD degree that they are pursuing. Thats what medical school connotates (connotates means 'means'). You said you are dedicating 3.5 years of your life to school. If you are going to Western U in Pomona,you're not obviously going to be a doctor, so stop misleading people. If your going to be an RN say nursing school. If you are going to be a podiatrist say Podiatrist school. PA, say PA school. If you are going to be an MD say medical school. Otherwise, stop it.



3.5 years. Let's see, I'm a first year medical student 6 days away from winter break. Err. my first year is half over. Let's do some simple math (I know... math is hard). 4 - 0.5 = 3.5. Hence, 3.5 years of undergraduate medical education (as in, medical education before being granted a medical degree and going into graduate medical education, also known as residency) remains. 

Additionally, "medical school" in the US refers to one of two degree granting programs. Colleges of allopathic medicine (MD) and colleges of osteopathic medicine (DO). Both degrees are considered equal with states granting full, unrestricted licenses to practice medicine. In the vast majority of states, both MDs and DOs are licensed by the same board of medicine. Western University of Health Sciences runs the College of Osteopathic Medicine of the Pacific (COMP). So, yes. Western University has a medical school. 



> Stop beating the dead horse while ignoring the pages of other things I have posted that are undeniable. I admitted I was in error about the call refusal. I gave you all credit for the education thing. Grow up and admit that maybe you are wrong about sojme things as well. Although, this is JPINV, the guy who admittedly would rat anyone out to advance himself. Far be it for him to display humility, or maturity...


Yea.. far be it from me to expect professionalism from my coworkers. At least I have never needed a union to protect my job.


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## daedalus (Dec 12, 2009)

Preforming a needle cric on the first day of one's internship means exactly nothing, and if your CES guy was bragging to you about this it probably means he did it on a patient where it was not indicated. The level of ignorance being displayed here is unbelievable. Your knowledge of education, and your misplaced importance in preforming skills, will mean poor patient care. It is not about what you can do but what you know. 

Also, JP is going to be a doctor. A physician. Just because Western U does not offer an MD degree, does not make the medical degree they award (D.O.) mean someone is any less of a doctor or physician or surgeon. There are DO cardiologists, DO emergency physicians, DO neurosurgeons, and DO paramedic textbook authors. And here I was thinking the shameful ignorance and discrimination against a physician with a DO was over????

You need to research what Physician Assistants, Nurse Practitioners, and Physicians really go through to obtain their education. Ill give you a clue, all of these professionals have master's degrees and above. But in case you do not know, here is the link to the Stanford School of Medicine's PA school:

http://pcap.stanford.edu/curriculum/
(Yes, the real Stanford University. Notice the complete lack of online classes in this school)

Also, what is a DO ?
http://www.osteopathic.org/index.cfm?PageID=ado_whatis


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## Old Fart Medic (Dec 12, 2009)

*OMG!*



Johnny Foley said:


> Pro is and has been engaging in illegal activity, and it wasn't the justice dept that got involved, it was the NLRB. Just following their last election, they were slapped with an injuction basically telling them to stop breaking just about every rule from the NLRA. A few employees illegally put on suspension were awarded a few months back pay.
> 
> And they have been breaking all the same laws again prior to this recent union vote - coercion, bribes, intimidation. They are even paying a stool from the East Coast to come and bad mouth the union. That is salary they could spend on employees, training, benefits, etc.
> 
> It doesn't matter who you work for, what occupation you hold, or your level of professionalism. You are going to work hard to make someone who works less hard rich. Period. AMR is no different than Pro in that respect. Everyone in this thread is an EMS worker first, and an employee second.



Do any of you actually know about NEMSA?  If you did you wouldn'nt be so up on their side.  I KNOW.  I have known the President of NEMSA almost 15 years, back before he became a shop stewart for SEIU at AMR.  Even back then I didn't care for him, and he knows it.  We had a "Infomational" meeting before the vote in Modesto/Hughson, supposed to be only NEMSA giving a short presentation, the leave and let the employees discuss things.  
Ain't what happened.  He, (Toren) brought in his heavy hitters to try and sway us.  As you might know, it didn't work.  Once he began talking, more of the Pro NEMSA employees decided that he was full of crap.  
OBTW.  Did I mention you can google "Toren Colcord" and get a lot of information about the ILLEGAL activities that he has been accused of, of the lawsuit by SEIU for NEMSA plotting their start by screwing SEIU, while he was working and accepting wages from SEIU?  How the courts have ruled that he owes a whole bunch of money to SEIU?  How he drives around Modesto area in a HUMVEE?  How his union got in something like 1.3 million in dues and his salary was over 750K?  
I saw no illegal activities by Pro Transport One.  I know of illegal activities by Toren and the NEMSA.  We had to have two different votes because the union(COLCORD) claimed illegal activities.  That is his unions playbook.  Lodge complaints after complaints against the company, dragging out what should have been a simple no vote, NEMSA get the heck out of heree.  WE voted that.  The employees.  Not the company.  I VOTED NO.  I have been personly screwed over by Toren.  So if you are reading this Toren, you know who I am.


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## Old Fart Medic (Dec 12, 2009)

*Rat?*



Johnny Foley said:


> This thread is starting to get repetitive aand argumentative so this the last post from me...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



YES! You can do this on your own.  You do0n't need a union to tell you to treat you patient with simple kindness, a smile, a thank you,  even a hug when one is needed.  Yes You Can Make A Difference.


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 12, 2009)

*Still ridiculous*



> Mr. Foley,
> It is obvious Sir, you lack the mental capacity to actively participate in this debate./index.htm



Lifeguard, this isn't even a response/argument.



> Unbelievable! You don't even know there is education for EMTs to advance to Paramedic and take A&P classes at the City college in your area?



Ventmedic, did you even read any of my other posts? I specifically wrote that I understand that an EMT can progress to Medic. That is common knowledge. The argument here is about seniority based raises vs. "education" based raises. I stated a number of times previously that a union will not stop anyone from advancing their job class. An EMT that takes any kind of coursework THAT DOESNT *CHANGE *HIS/HER JOB CLASSIFICATION WILL NOT GET A RAISE BASED ON THAT EDUCATION. To be %100 clear, an EMT can only work within his/her protocols. Same with a medic. We can all obviously agree on that. The most highly educated EMT or Medic still cannot do anything outside of those protocols so for the purpose of paying you for the job you do, once you are certified as an EMT or a Medic, all the extraneous education in the world will not change that. Granted, if you get an RN or a medical degree for example, then of course you can go work as one of those professions. BUT at an Ambulance company you are still an EMT or a Medic. I hope you all can understand this logic, it is not complex. And while you are working as an EMT or Medic, you will get raises based on the time you have worked. Period. There is really no more to argue about there. 

Vent, you went on and on about education, but as far as an EMT or Medic cert goes right now, in this day and age, according to nationally agreed upon policies, once you are certified, that is what you are. No more no less. If you want to get to EMT-I, that is fine and then you will get seniority based raises among the other EMT-I's. Same thing for W-EMT if that is what your organization employs. But an EMT-B with a doctorate in cardiac pathophysiology will get put into a seniority list based on his hire date just like the high school grad who also has aN EMT-B cert. Period. If you don't like it that is one thing, and I am not suggesting that it is entirely appropriate. BUT, the Doc EMT and the High School EMT are performing the same skills, duty, job, and prescribed protocols while working. INDISPUTABLE. Thus, they get SENIORITY based raises. Until your local Medical Director changes that, that is the correct, right, and above all else fair way to do it. 



> Why do you think the hospital system is set up the way it is in SF or any city? Not all can or even should have cath labs or be trauma center. You don't seem to understand that, as much as you like SFGH because it is some convenient, you can not dump all your patients off there especially since you only do BLS IFT



Vent, I'm sorry but you are sincerely arrogant in your assumptions about what I know and don't know about SF destination policy. And again, I'm not sure why I am even replying to you since it is obvious that you either don't read or understand my other posts. I DIDN'T TAKE THAT GIRL TO SFGH B/C IT WAS CONVENIENT. SHE WAS A ROLLOVER, THUS A TRAUMA ACTIVATION!! IT WAS NOT A MATTER OF CONVENIENCE IN ANY SENSE OF THE WORD. MY CONVENIENCE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT AND I DIDN'T IMPLY THAT IN ANY WAY. STOP INSULTING ME WITH YOUR ARROGANCE AND BLATANT IGNORANCE. You seem oblivious to the fact that destination policy - and a lot of other hospital policy for that matter, evidently to me, Kaiser's - will not always take the patients sense of convenience and comfort into consideration. Haven't you ever done or heard of a pt getting a long distance transport home s/p some kind of hip of spinal surgery when Medicare/Medi-cal did not approve flight XFER? Or a pt who has some kind neurological disease that is sent from SF to Eureka and pees and poops himself 1 hr into the Xport because he is incontinent? Would you want to sit in your own FECES for 4 hours? That is representative of hospital policy in SF. It doesn't disgruntle me while I am working, and I challenge you to call my supe and ask about how many Pt complaints I have gotten in the 2 years of being an EMT. I didn't make that girl cry, her emergency did. I did all I could to assist her, make her comfortable, keep her warm, assure her - lying through my teeth - that Kaiser is one of the best hospital groups in the Bay Area and that she was heading towards competent hands. Vent, if you can't grasp why that transport was bad, than you don't seem to have the first idea or what true care entails. 



> Luckily you and, of course, the OP are just two employees from ProTransport. But, you display you hideous attitude when picking up patients in the hospital to other health care professionals and to the patients to where you make them cry by telling them some of the crap you have said here, .



Like I said above Vent, READ THE POSTS YOU ARE RESPONDING TO!! I wrote that I didn't work for Pro. I wrote that it was AN MVC ROLLOVER that made that girl cry. Stop replying if you are not going to actually read the posts. It is belittling of you.




> Quote:
> 
> 
> Amazing that you avoided the question there completely. Did that course occur in the field or in a class room? It's one or the other. Of course the problem is that everyone knows the answer (classroom), but the answer (classroom) doesn't jive with your bias (classroom is useless).



JPINV, if you are so hellbent on being proven right, and you need to stroke your ego (and self) to feel better about yourself, the class was given by my CES instructor and a visiting doctor from a sutter hospital in my CREW LOUNGE at my Ops. There wasn't a blackboard or desks and chairs, but it wasn't in an ambulance either. So I think that we are both right. Is your gen. psychology/sociology requirement coming up soon, because you are really hard to deal with and you need some pointers.

3.5 years. Let's see, I'm a first year medical student 6 days away from  



> Additionally, "medical school" in the US refers to one of two degree granting programs. Colleges of allopathic medicine (MD) and colleges of osteopathic medicine (DO). Both degrees are considered equal with states granting full, unrestricted licenses to practice medicine. In the vast majority of states, both MDs and DOs are licensed by the same board of medicine. Western University of Health Sciences runs the College of Osteopathic Medicine of the Pacific (COMP). So, yes. Western University has a medical school.



I stand totally corrected on my last post. This thread had gotten argumentative and aggresive and I was writing the same way. No knock on you for trying to better yourself, and I fully admit that I was wrong about Western Pomona State. Best of luck to you in your career.

```
http://www.studentsreview.com/CA/Western_University_of_Health_Sciences.html
```


```
http://www.studentsreview.com/CA/SFSU.html
```



> Yea.. far be it from me to expect professionalism from my coworkers. At least I have never needed a union to protect my job.



Just hope you never will...



> Preforming a needle cric on the first day of one's internship means exactly nothing, and if your CES guy was bragging to you about this it probably means he did it on a patient where it was not indicated. The level of ignorance being displayed here is unbelievable. Your knowledge of education, and your misplaced importance in preforming skills, will mean poor patient care. It is not about what you can do but what you know.



To be totally clear - and I admit I wasn't before - my CES WOMAN, did her medic internship in alameda county, Oakland, the ghetto, so she saw everything that was in your EMT and Paramedic textbooks, times ten. And, like other people I know who have participated in extremely intense, high-stress situations like the one she saw in alameda, she didn't brag, she graciously shared her stories with people who would benefit from that knowledge. And How the F**K do you know if it was indicated or not. That is even more arrogant than Ventmedic. And your last sentence is so nonsensical it is silly "It is not about what you can do but what you know". It reminds me of this commercial I used to see that made me laugh. Its for these TV dinners and they have these people who are supposed to look like some kind of chefs, and one of them says to the other "_Here we've added flavor to taste..."
_


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 12, 2009)

> Do any of you actually know about NEMSA? If you did you wouldn'nt be so up on their side. I KNOW. I have known the President of NEMSA almost 15 years, back before he became a shop stewart for SEIU at AMR. Even back then I didn't care for him, and he knows it. We had a "Infomational" meeting before the vote in Modesto/Hughson, supposed to be only NEMSA giving a short presentation, the leave and let the employees discuss things.
> Ain't what happened. He, (Toren) brought in his heavy hitters to try and sway us. As you might know, it didn't work. Once he began talking, more of the Pro NEMSA employees decided that he was full of crap.
> OBTW. Did I mention you can google "Toren Colcord" and get a lot of information about the ILLEGAL activities that he has been accused of, of the lawsuit by SEIU for NEMSA plotting their start by screwing SEIU, while he was working and accepting wages from SEIU? How the courts have ruled that he owes a whole bunch of money to SEIU? How he drives around Modesto area in a HUMVEE? How his union got in something like 1.3 million in dues and his salary was over 750K?
> I saw no illegal activities by Pro Transport One. I know of illegal activities by Toren and the NEMSA. We had to have two different votes because the union(COLCORD) claimed illegal activities. That is his unions playbook. Lodge complaints after complaints against the company, dragging out what should have been a simple no vote, NEMSA get the heck out of heree. WE voted that. The employees. Not the company. I VOTED NO. I have been personly screwed over by Toren. So if you are reading this Toren, you know who I am.



I have never dealt with Torren at all, and I know of the allegations. HOWEVER, as I stated way, way back in this thread, the CONCEPT OF UNIONISM IS A GOOD ONE, and in my opinion the CONCEPT OF AN ALL EMS UNION IS SOUND ALSO. My steward has helped a really, really good medic I work with get two and a half months of back pay that was owed him. Another steward stopped mgmt from sending new people home if their partner called in, which was against our CBA. Also, another steward filed a greivance for an EE who had been put on aa final written warning for ppwk mistakes without a verbal, or a written, thus breaking contract. In other words, whatever Torren's dirty laundry may be - and that might come out in the future - LOCALLY, the stewards at my job are very good at helping fellow coworkers, and that is all I care about currently. My coworkers security. Which - I BELIEVE - NEMSA can protect.


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## Stryker (Dec 21, 2009)

I am sadened by your lack of character. What you may perceive as being educated is only your lack of understanding. Nothing in your life will run as smoothly as you may think it should. Working in the EMS field you should know that every second is unpredictable. What works in this moment won't work for the next. I read these posts over and over. I understand you're frustration. I get what you're saying. What I don't understand is why you have decided that the company you work for has failed you. Have you failed them? Have you performed every moment of your on duty time to being the best EMT and patient care taker as you possibly could? Really. You must be the EMT that shows up for work on time everyday. Shows up to all calls on time with out an issue. You're that EMT who never complains that he got to many calls today, or too little. Definatly not the EMT who's tummy hurts and wants to go home, You're not that guy right? No I got you!! You're the guy who wants control. Who says, 'Hey I am union I don't have to run that call. Make me!!' 'I had to work overtime cuz a patient needed transport, This job sucks!!'.. You're that guy! Did you show up for work on time today? Did you remember to take your freakin gurney with you? Oh, you didn't? Well shoot lets delay patient care so you can take a minute to get your head out of your rear and get your gurney... Did you know that you delayed a patients care, and the next patient in line? No?, Well you did. Not only that you took time from everyone else so they can reroute, call facilites, make up an excuse why you're late, Make up? yes make up, God forbid if they told the hospital you were late because you forgot you're gurney... PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY>... Grow up! It'a JoB!! you make as much money as you are willing to.. Stop being a baby and quit working for this company you hate so much. Take pride in what you do. If you don't love EMS then get out!... I'm not an owner, not a manager, I'm a hard worker who takes the good with the bad. Because as bad as I think it is for me it's worse, so much worse for people who have to rely on ambulance transport as a means of sustaining what little life they have. You will never work for an EMS company that doesn't have issues. If you can't take care of you're own problems I guess you better Get NEMSA to do it for you. Wuss.... Stop Being part of the problem and work for a solution. If you're not part of the solution you ARE the problem.

Whew... Had to say something... after all you're posts I couldn't help myself. 

I apologize if you were offended... You're a big boy right!!!???


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## JPINFV (Dec 21, 2009)

Johnny Foley said:


> I stand totally corrected on my last post. This thread had gotten argumentative and aggresive and I was writing the same way. No knock on you for trying to better yourself, and I fully admit that I was wrong about Western Pomona State. Best of luck to you in your career.
> 
> ```
> http://www.studentsreview.com/CA/Western_University_of_Health_Sciences.html
> ...



I originally missed this little hissy fit, and since the thread is already dead I'm only going to respond to the blantant attack on my school. Congrats on referencing an obscure student rating website that's has an entire 5 reviews? Do you understand what a sample size is and how a small (N=5!) sample size skews ratings? Additionally, it's a survey. The thousands of students who don't share similar complaints and love their education aren't going to spend their time searching out random websites to post reviews.


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 21, 2009)

Stryker said:


> I am sadened by your lack of character. What you may perceive as being educated is only your lack of understanding. Nothing in your life will run as smoothly as you may think it should. Working in the EMS field you should know that every second is unpredictable. What works in this moment won't work for the next. I read these posts over and over. I understand you're frustration. I get what you're saying. What I don't understand is why you have decided that the company you work for has failed you. Have you failed them? Have you performed every moment of your on duty time to being the best EMT and patient care taker as you possibly could? Really. You must be the EMT that shows up for work on time everyday. Shows up to all calls on time with out an issue. You're that EMT who never complains that he got to many calls today, or too little. Definatly not the EMT who's tummy hurts and wants to go home, You're not that guy right? No I got you!! You're the guy who wants control. Who says, 'Hey I am union I don't have to run that call. Make me!!' 'I had to work overtime cuz a patient needed transport, This job sucks!!'.. You're that guy! Did you show up for work on time today? Did you remember to take your freakin gurney with you? Oh, you didn't? Well shoot lets delay patient care so you can take a minute to get your head out of your rear and get your gurney... Did you know that you delayed a patients care, and the next patient in line? No?, Well you did. Not only that you took time from everyone else so they can reroute, call facilites, make up an excuse why you're late, Make up? yes make up, God forbid if they told the hospital you were late because you forgot you're gurney... PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY>... Grow up! It'a JoB!! you make as much money as you are willing to.. Stop being a baby and quit working for this company you hate so much. Take pride in what you do. If you don't love EMS then get out!... I'm not an owner, not a manager, I'm a hard worker who takes the good with the bad. Because as bad as I think it is for me it's worse, so much worse for people who have to rely on ambulance transport as a means of sustaining what little life they have. You will never work for an EMS company that doesn't have issues. If you can't take care of you're own problems I guess you better Get NEMSA to do it for you. Wuss.... Stop Being part of the problem and work for a solution. If you're not part of the solution you ARE the problem.
> 
> Whew... Had to say something... after all you're posts I couldn't help myself.
> 
> I apologize if you were offended... You're a big boy right!!!???






Yep, I'm a big boy who understands the reality that as long as there is a system in place where some people make money off of the debilitating health issues of others, there will be serious problems in every level of care provided. Period.

I have never been late to work. That means signing in at 6:29 for my 6:30 shift everyday I have ever worked. No lie. I am not an exceptional employee, I am average. I am never late for calls - our company policy dictates that if we have a 2000 pickup, we should be BEDSIDE at 2000 so we go on scene at 1955. None of this is exceptional, or relevant.

What is important is that the shareholders and the management of my company are making much more money than I am, even though it is me who does the compressions on the old ladies, and me who holds c-spine, and me puts my own life in danger driving through intersections. 

My company cannot afford to pay its employees a decent, appropriate wage AND afford to buy sufficient supplies and working equipment. That is a failure. But for them, that is totally acceptable because less overhead, menas more profits. That is an easily understandable formula. 

As a union rep I want to work for the fair, equal, and beneficial treatment of all my coworkers and fellow EMS workers. Anybody who badmouths the union doesn't understand that simple fact. Fair treatment means stocked ambulances, working supplies, fair compensation, and no dirty managerial behavior. Half of my job is policing mgmt about things that they know are illegal, but easy enough to get away with in a non-informed workforce. F that.

I work for the largest private ambulance company in the country and we have cut 4 positions in the last 4 months. That is 4 providers, 4 earners, 4 family members. Anyone who cries that the union is useless or dated or detrimental is totally - and dangerously so - ignorant to reality.

EMS workers provide a service more crucial, more useful, and more dangerous than every other industry with the exceptions of in-hospital care, fire, and PD. Period. We deserve fair compensation. 

Unions solidify worker power. For everyone on this days-old thread, if you don't understand that then no amount of education will benefit you. Because as amazingly smart as you think you are, you are nothing solitarily. You are only something special when you a part of a strong, unified, and moving group. period. 

If you are a worker, EDUCATE YOURSELF to the reality of labor in this country. Unions are the only way to stand up to the corruption, the power, and the thriftiness of big business (health care, the biggest). You want the best for your patient, stop being a follower and realize that your help is greatly needed, for both your patient AND YOU COWORKER.



> Take pride in what you do. If you don't love EMS then get out!



I am extremely proud of what I do and I would do it for free I the world worked that way (see my previous posts on volunteerism). And I DO love EMS, so much so that I am going to work to improve it, and realistically that means starting with my immediate surroundings: my workplace. If you love a person but they are difficult to get along with do you leave them, or get out, like you said. No, you put effort into making your relationship better. Unions work to make the relationship between their work and their compensation better. 

Lastly, I have never went on a call without a gurney, or called out in the middle of my shift because "my tummy hurt". Things like that must happen in your county, not mine. 

Unions Work


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## VentMedic (Dec 21, 2009)

Johnny Foley said:


> Unions Work


 
...so the employees have an excuse not to.

Get an eduation about patient care. That is how you can improve EMS.


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 21, 2009)

vent, 
unions are employees. they are the same thing. maybe you have had bad experiences with unions in the past, or maybe you have a fundamental misunderstanding about what unions really are. either way - and to borrow the main point that you are championing - EDUCATE yourself about them before you constantly misrepresent them.

to reiterate again, I have never seen nor heard of a union rep defending or protecting a lazy, bad, or dangerous employee. we WILL however find out if they are truly at fault or if mgmt has it out for them and just CLAIMS they're  lazy. you'd want the same for yourself, friends, and family. when you badmouth unions you secondarily badmouth gooood EMS workers

Unions Work.


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## VentMedic (Dec 21, 2009)

Your irrational rambling on and on about unions is exactly why some are sick of unions. They do not stand for enhancing the professionalism of EMS. In fact, unions could care less if their members are educated as long as you pay the dues. If anything they will fight to the end of time to keep their members from going through the torture of "education" which they view as a cruel unnecessary inconvenience to their members. You can see that each time the state has tried to raise its EMS education, including CMEs, requirements for EMS. Attend a state meeting sometime in Sacramento. But then, you would probably applaud that they have kept the education standards so low for your EMT-B status. 

Unfortunately the good employees in EMS may be forced to become union members by the closed shop issues. So no, they are not part of the union in heart but merely their paycheck has union dues removed from it. Many would like to distance themselves from unions and their political statements and lack of concern for patient care.

I would say that you have never sat through a contract negotiation at a higher level or have never attended any EMS legislative meeting. You probably have never been part of any facility/ambulance contract meetings. You have probably never seen the complaints or compliments made toward employees nor have you seen the results. 

I can see a very short career for you if you continue your irrational ramblings in the hospitals when you disagree about taking a patient and especially when you express your opinions to the patients to make them cry just so you can feel justified in your way of thinking. I just hope there will be no union there to stand in the way of an ambulance service from firing you.


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 21, 2009)

Bulls**t on all of that. If EMS workers don't like the closed shop policies they can go to a company with no union. But they probably wouldn't want to do that because those companies don't pay nearly as well, and don't have health insurance benefits as companies w UNION NEGOTIATED CBA'S. 

As far as unions blocking ems worker education, that is also a large stinking pile of bs. My CBA has clauses that make the company pay for all employee CEUs (which can include PHTLS, PALS, ACLS, and EKG or other training useful and sometimes required for paramedic school) refresher training, CPR renewal, as well as county mandated hazmat training, airborne and bloodborne pathgens, disaster response training, ICS, CCT training, etc. I even got my Wilderness Upgrade for Medical Professionals paid for. On a more personal/local level, during a recent shift bid that was a result of the aforementioned cutting of 4 shifts, union reps at my shop worked cohesively w mgmt and all the employees to make sure that the midyear change of schedule would work with everyones current non-work schedules, such as two employees w new babies, and with 6 employees ENTERING MEDIC SCHOOL. that also included making sure that all those just exiting medic school had work schedules that matched up w their INTERNSHIPS. My union does not block employee educational efforts. period. you can keep belaboring that point if you want, but you're simply wrong.

As far as unions blocking the CHANGING of educational standards, while I have never heard of that nor read of it, I have never been to a state legislature meeting in Sac nor have I sat in any policy deciding board meetings or the like in my county. I will take your word for it (with a giant grain of salt) that those meetings are the way they are. However, like I said previously, my interactions are currently with my immediate, local surroundings, e.g. dealing w my ops mngr and my supes. I regularly attend biweekly system status meetings w all of mgmt. I meet with all union members whenever they need. when the time comes that I feel available and capable - and even agree with the process - I will branch out from just my shop, to attempting to fix whatever I may find to be wrong with EMS educational standards. right now the fights I pick are with mgmt when they try to harrass, treat unfair, and bully my coworkers. 

and stop going off about pts crying. if you're trying to refer to my story about the girl in the mva, by now anyone who can read knows she was crying because she was just in a traumatic accident. (you would be crying too). not because of anything I said, because I didn't say anything about it to her or her family or the er staff. my guess is that an emt made YOU cry once and you are trying to get back at them through a message board. lame.


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## VentMedic (Dec 21, 2009)

> As far as unions blocking ems worker education, that is also a large stinking pile of bs. My CBA has clauses that make the company pay for all employee CEUs (which can include PHTLS, PALS, ACLS, and EKG or other training useful and sometimes required for paramedic school) refresher training, CPR renewal, as well as county mandated hazmat training, airborne and bloodborne pathgens, disaster response training, ICS, CCT training, etc. I even got my Wilderness Upgrade for Medical Professionals paid for. On a more personal/local level, during a recent shift bid that was a result of the aforementioned cutting of 4 shifts, union reps at my shop worked cohesively w mgmt and all the employees to make sure that the midyear change of schedule would work with everyones current non-work schedules, such as two employees w new babies, and with 6 employees ENTERING MEDIC SCHOOL. that also included making sure that all those just exiting medic school had work schedules that matched up w their INTERNSHIPS. My union does not block employee educational efforts. period. you can keep belaboring that point if you want, but you're simply wrong.


 
You are giving your union way too much credit. Other employers must give some the mandatory education requirements without having them paying union dues. Thus, your union is making the employees pay for things that they are already entitled to. There are also Family Leave laws in place to protect those with new babies. As for work schedules and Paramedic school, most ambulance services will work with an employee for that without charging them a monthly fee. 

Show me where your union has supported any piece of legislation for advancing EMS as a profession and the education involved. 




Johnny Foley said:


> and stop going off about pts crying. if you're trying to refer to my story about the girl in the mva, by now anyone who can read knows she was crying because she was just in a traumatic accident. (you would be crying too). not because of anything I said, because I didn't say anything about it to her or her family or the er staff. my guess is that an emt made YOU cry once and you are trying to get back at them through a message board. lame.


 
We can only take your words as you wrote them. I find it difficult to believe you wouldn't be throwing a hissy fit in the hospital and in the ambulance. 

With all the complaining you have done on this thread about how much you dislike ambulance companies, insurances, hospitals and doing patient care you feel unjust according to your union, you really need to examine why you are still in the position you are in. I truly feel bad for Pro-Transport if you really are an employee there. I can see them losing some major contracts if you get other employees in an uproar to where they refuse transports as EMT-Bs because they don't like the hospital the patient is being taken to for whatever reason. And shame on any union that interferes with patient care without having a better knowledge about patient care and the way the hospital systems work as well as that of EMS.


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 21, 2009)

> VentMedic said:
> 
> 
> > You are giving your union way too much credit. Other employers must give some the mandatory education requirements without having them paying union dues. Thus, your union is making the employees pay for things that they are already entitled to
> ...


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## VentMedic (Dec 21, 2009)

Johnny Foley said:


> > .
> >
> >
> > I wrote like three times that I DON'T WORK FOR PRO!
> ...


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## 46Young (Dec 21, 2009)

Union plug: The 401k was invented in 1980 I think, and legitimized in 1981. It's original intention was to provide a tax shelter for highly compensated corporate employees, nothing more. At the time, regular employees weren't making enough to take advantage, and didn't necessarily need to, since they had pensions.

The problem is, these corporations, in the interest of profit both for the company and their shareholders, discovered that it was way cheaper to switch the defined benefit plan to that of a defined contribution. Many also matched funds with company stock only, which is highly speculative (risky)for the employee (think Enron). 

Percentage wise, how many employers, gov't and private alike were able to retain their pensions? How many of these employers are union, and how many are not? I bet you already know the answer for that.

Hardly any employers in private industry lacking unions have pensions. There are many municipal employers that have pensions with no union presence, but there needs to be something in place to draw in quality talent since municipal employers typically compensate less than a similar position in the private sector.


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 22, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Johnny Foley said:
> 
> 
> > I would imagine ProTransport is relieved to know you aren't one of theirs.
> ...


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## JPINFV (Dec 22, 2009)

Johnny Foley said:


> yeah its only a six month class at a jr. college, but my coworkers and I all work hard, work well, and treat pts with the same respect we would want ourselves.



Ohh, hard work. Would you like a gold star? See, outside of union fantasy land, results are more important than the effort that goes into it. You can put a ton of effort and hard work into polishing a turd, but in the end you still have a turd.


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## CAOX3 (Dec 22, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> Ohh, hard work. Would you like a gold star? *See, outside of union fantasy land*, results are more important than the effort that goes into it. You can put a ton of effort and hard work into polishing a turd, but in the end you still have a turd.



From my union fantasy land I see:

-Lousy wages
-Crappy health care benefits
-No retirement
-No job security
-Unsafe work enviorments
-Out of date or broken equipment
-No employer accountability and a do what ever the heck we want attitude 

And it is getting worse by the day.


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## JPINFV (Dec 22, 2009)

CAOX3 said:


> From my union fantasy land I see:
> 
> -Lousy wages
> -Crappy health care benefits
> ...



Damn, your union must really suck more than normal.


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## CAOX3 (Dec 22, 2009)

Actually their quite good at their job.

Which affords me decent salary, health care benefits and retirement.

I ll stick with a union shop as opposed to the alternative.


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## Hal9000 (Dec 22, 2009)

Unions are archaic in this day and age.


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## 46Young (Dec 22, 2009)

Hal9000 said:


> Unions are archaic in this day and age.



Or so those in admin with interest contrary to those in the field would like you to believe. Let's not forget why unions were invented in the first place, to prevent the exploitation of the worker, to level the playing field with management. If we do away with unions things will eventually come full circle. We've already seen the first sings of change with the loss of pensions, laying off senior workers to hire new employees for half the salary, compensation being at the sole discretion of management, to name but a few.


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 22, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> Ohh, hard work. Would you like a gold star? See, outside of union fantasy land, results are more important than the effort that goes into it. You can put a ton of effort and hard work into polishing a turd, but in the end you still have a turd.



this is the kind of s**t someone who has never actually worked hard says. baseless and juvenile. JPINV you'll make an awesome manager someday. 

results like more revenue by layoffs and cut benefits? out dated equipment and supplies to save on overhead? paying minimum wage to increase shareholder dividends? results.

actually, debating with someone who doesn't get the merits of effort is totally stupid. my mistake.


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 22, 2009)

Hal9000 said:


> Unions are archaic in this day and age.



i'm sure that UNITE, AFL-CIO, SEIU, IAFF, the IBT, and even SAG in Hollywood and on Broadway would agree with you.


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## JPINFV (Dec 22, 2009)

Johnny Foley said:


> this is the kind of s**t someone who has never actually worked hard says. baseless and juvenile. JPINV you'll make an awesome manager someday.
> 
> results like more revenue by layoffs and cut benefits? out dated equipment and supplies to save on overhead? paying minimum wage to increase shareholder dividends? results.
> 
> actually, debating with someone who doesn't get the merits of effort is totally stupid. my mistake.




Wow, you completely missed the point didn't you. Not that it matters, as long as you can throw in a personal attack right? So let me make it clear for you sparky. The entire 'It's only 6 months (still only 120 hours, but I digress), but gosh darn it, we worked hard during that 6 months of one 5 hour class a week,' earns the gold star. Of course you wouldn't know work if a union stooge slapped you in the face with it. Afterall, if it isn't in the job description, screw it regardless of what needs to be done, right? Then again, I'm trying to have a reasonable discussion with someone who thinks that unions will get rid of frequent fliers.

Oh, yea, and I never worked hard? Hahahahah. No, really, ha! Yea, I've never came in on one of my off days because too many people called off. I've never stayed late to help pick up the slack when night crews called off. Never made it a point to make sure that my unit was stocked and cleaned, inside and out, without being prompted by a union stooge or management. Yep, none of those things. Oh, and undergrad, grad, and medical school is an absolute cake walk. Yep.  [/sarcasm]


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## Hal9000 (Dec 22, 2009)

You're wrong.  Unions were once useful; not we have OSHA and many safety regulations.  There is no longer a need for unions.  Unfortunately, I still remain intimately familial with them. 

Regarding the oft-said line about management, I have worked in some of the worst environments.  Then I got a new job.  Americans have become very used to having rather unsustainable standards, at least in the long term.


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## CAOX3 (Dec 22, 2009)

Like anything else there are good ones and bad ones.  

Ill take representation as opposed to allowing a for profit company to determine whats in my best interest.


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 22, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> Wow, you completely missed the point didn't you. Not that it matters, as long as you can throw in a personal attack right? So let me make it clear for you sparky. The entire 'It's only 6 months (still only 120 hours, but I digress), but gosh darn it, we worked hard during that 6 months of one 5 hour class a week,' earns the gold star. Of course you wouldn't know work if a union stooge slapped you in the face with it. Afterall, if it isn't in the job description, screw it regardless of what needs to be done, right? Then again, I'm trying to have a reasonable discussion with someone who thinks that unions will get rid of frequent fliers.
> 
> Oh, yea, and I never worked hard? Hahahahah. No, really, ha! Yea, I've never came in on one of my off days because too many people called off. I've never stayed late to help pick up the slack when night crews called off. Never made it a point to make sure that my unit was stocked and cleaned, inside and out, without being prompted by a union stooge or management. Yep, none of those things. Oh, and undergrad, grad, and medical school is an absolute cake walk. Yep.  [/sarcasm]



I got your point. And its still pretty lame when you re-explained it. Stop trying to convince yourself and everyone else that you are so much better than any EMT out there because you're not. When you graduate with your degree in OM/reiki massage, you will still not be a better person than any emts out there. At best you will still be AS GOOD a person as all of them. You will be their equal. You and all working emt's, medics, RNs, MDs, techs, wheelchair drivers, and even PATIENTS will be all equal. It infuriates me when people inflate their own egos at the expense of others. And you're not even done w school yet! You a still an emt! Show a little self-worth, and again, humility. Yes you may be at a higher skill level, but as a worker, contributer, and human being, you are no better than anyone else. Period. 

Yeah it was only 120 hours, but why do you insist on trash talking the EMT position as a whole? Your "gold star" bit is condescending and patronizing. Same with the polished turd. I sure as s**t hope that the emts who xfer your parent or grandparent when its time - and they all get bls xferred eventually, hopefully ONLY bls - treat them with more respect than you give emts on this board.

At the Nike Womens Marathon a few years ago, an emt coworker of mine resucitated a runner in cardiac arrest BY HIMSELF, with bls techniques only. The runner was just down, pulseless, apneic, unresponsive. He had a mini O2 bottle on the bicycle he was riding and an aed as well. He used both accurately and effectively in between pt contact and als arrival. Pt outcome was favorable and she ran in the following year's marathon. 

This emt was also working on his day off so when you trash emt's, like you trash the union - who come in on their day off too but for free - remember that you are no better nor worse than anyone else. If your Mom told something different, she was lying.


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## JPINFV (Dec 22, 2009)

Johnny Foley said:


> I got your point. And its still pretty lame when you re-explained it. Stop trying to convince yourself and everyone else that you are so much better than any EMT out there because you're not. When you graduate with your degree in OM/reiki massage, you will still not be a better person than any emts out there. At best you will still be AS GOOD a person as all of them. You will be their equal. You and all working emt's, medics, RNs, MDs, techs, wheelchair drivers, and even PATIENTS will be all equal. It infuriates me when people inflate their own egos at the expense of others. And you're not even done w school yet! You a still an emt! Show a little self-worth, and again, humility. Yes you may be at a higher skill level, but as a worker, contributer, and human being, you are no better than anyone else. Period.


Sorry, I don't get my rocks of on being able to pass the advanced first aid course known as EMT-B. My patients deserve better than that. Also, what sort of hubris puts you on equal footing as an RN, physician, or other higher level provider? There's absolutely nothing wrong with understanding that EMT-B is low man on the totem pole. Sorry, but when I was working as an EMT-B, I fully understood where my spot on the totem pole was and was perfectly fine with it. For you, I dare you to walk up to a physician next time you pick up at the ER and tell him that you're an equal because you're an EMT-B. 



> Yeah it was only 120 hours, but why do you insist on trash talking the EMT position as a whole? Your "gold star" bit is condescending and patronizing. Same with the polished turd. I sure as s**t hope that the emts who xfer your parent or grandparent when its time - and they all get bls xferred eventually, hopefully ONLY bls - treat them with more respect than you give emts on this board.


I trash the position of EMT-B because the extreme inadequacies in education making it deserving to be trashed. Trashing a level because of such inadequacies is not the same as trashing the providers who make up said level. If EMT-B is the sole source of pride in your life that any slight against your holy of holys level is a direct personal offense, then sorry, I don't know how to help you. 



> At the Nike Womens Marathon a few years ago, an emt coworker of mine resucitated a runner in cardiac arrest BY HIMSELF, with bls techniques only. The runner was just down, pulseless, apneic, unresponsive. He had a mini O2 bottle on the bicycle he was riding and an aed as well. He used both accurately and effectively in between pt contact and als arrival. Pt outcome was favorable and she ran in the following year's marathon.
> 
> This emt was also working on his day off so when you trash emt's, like you trash the union - who come in on their day off too but for free - remember that you are no better nor worse than anyone else. If your Mom told something different, she was lying.



I'm willing to bet that the AED (a common medical device with a level of public access growing to match fire extinguishers) did the vast majority of the work. Good save though. Also, where, again, did I trash any provider who is donating time off to assist at special events? Oh, yea. Keep digging sun shine.


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## EMSLaw (Dec 22, 2009)

Johnny Foley said:


> When you graduate with your degree in OM/reiki massage, you will still not be a better person than any emts out there.



The level of your ignorance is so astounding, I'm surprised that you even know that DOs exist, let alone that they are taught osteopathic manual manipulation.  I'm less surprised that you totally misconstrue it as if to make them out as less than doctors - I thought we had gotten away from that sort of stuff thirty years ago.  Seeing as DOs (and MDs) can do all sorts of things that EMTs can't - from writing prescriptions to diagnosing disease to the general practice of medicine - I can't believe you would even make a comparison.  

By all means be proud of yourself for passing EMT-B.  Personally, I found the biggest challenge in the whole course to be showing up at 8 am, but that's just me.  EMT-Bs have their place, but don't try to hold them up as the gold standard of anything.  And certainly don't compare them to MDs, DOs, Pharm.Ds, D.P.T.s, D.N.P.s, or any other doctors, including Doctors of Chiropractic, who have more credit hours in their respective undergraduate degrees than EMT-Bs have clock hours in their entire program.


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## JPINFV (Dec 22, 2009)

Actually, he had no idea what DOs were before this thread. 
http://emtlife.com/showpost.php?p=196402&postcount=70


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## EMSLaw (Dec 22, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> Actually, he had no idea what DOs were before this thread.
> http://emtlife.com/showpost.php?p=196402&postcount=70



Ah, okay.

So when are you quitting that to go to a /real/ medical school, dude?  I hear the St. George is nice this time of year. Or maybe Grenada? 

*ducks!*


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 22, 2009)

> JPINFV said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, I don't get my rocks of on being able to pass the advanced first aid course known as EMT-B. My patients deserve better than that.
> ...


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 22, 2009)

EMSLaw said:


> The level of your ignorance is so astounding, I'm surprised that you even know that DOs exist, let alone that they are taught osteopathic manual manipulation.  I'm less surprised that you totally misconstrue it as if to make them out as less than doctors - I thought we had gotten away from that sort of stuff thirty years ago.  Seeing as DOs (and MDs) can do all sorts of things that EMTs can't - from writing prescriptions to diagnosing disease to the general practice of medicine - I can't believe you would even make a comparison.
> 
> By all means be proud of yourself for passing EMT-B.  Personally, I found the biggest challenge in the whole course to be showing up at 8 am, but that's just me.  EMT-Bs have their place, but don't try to hold them up as the gold standard of anything.  And certainly don't compare them to MDs, DOs, Pharm.Ds, D.P.T.s, D.N.P.s, or any other doctors, including Doctors of Chiropractic, who have more credit hours in their respective undergraduate degrees than EMT-Bs have clock hours in their entire program.



So go post on OMMlife.com and don't condescend to a thread that is so beneath you. JPINV is just too arrogant not to be made fun of.


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## JPINFV (Dec 22, 2009)

Mr. Foley, your responses have become so absurd and hostile that they do not even warrant a response anymore.


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## Johnny Foley (Dec 22, 2009)

AND YOU ARE ONLY 24 y/o, right!? You must be Doogie Howser. You have it more figured out than the NHTSA, the DOT, the DOH, the AAP, the AAEM, NREMT, the AHA, all local EMS agencies, medical dierctors, medical consultants, Fire Departments, assemblymen, supervisors, researchers etc.? Get the F off of your high horse.


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## Jon (Dec 22, 2009)

Umm. Yeah.
Thats that.

ITBL.


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