# When Law Enforcement  Prevents You From Helping A Patient.....



## beckoncall62 (Jul 26, 2007)

"Oh, once time a cop tried to PREVENT me from treating people who had been banged up in an automobile accident. They had hit his car and he was pretty steamed up about it. I guess cops can be the best of friends and the worst of friends." bstone  7-20-07 "What Makes You Mad On A Scene?"

This brings up something I've been wondering about for awhile: When I first joined our department I remember one of our EMT's relating to us an experience she had when stopping to help victims of an MVA. She initiated and was holding c-spine when a police officer told her to get out of the way. This was an accident she either came upon and /or witnessed outside of our district. I'd like to know from the more experienced of you if this has happened to you and how would you suggest handling it if I ever experience this?


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## akflightmedic (Jul 26, 2007)

How to handle the situation is very simple.

If you are going to stop on a accident, which is foolish for about 99 percent of the ones you witness, do not initiate cspine precautions.

Yes, I have stopped for accidents but they were severe and remote.

Anyways, if you do stop, you can instruct the patient to hold their head still and do not move. Why commit yourself to the mentality that you need to immediately seize C-spine and then obligate yourself to not being able to let go??

If you are the lone responder, your hands need to be free. What if another patient gets worse, or something goes wrong with scene safety and you can not see any of this or perform due to being committed to holding cspine on a stable patient?

Just instruct the patient to sit still and not nod yes or no when you ask questions...speak the answers please. This does not mean you are not doing your duty to act thing, because in a sense you are. You are protecting yourself and the patient. When more help arrives and you feel the need to continue assisting, then that is a good time to take cspine. If they are capable of maintaining their airway and following commands, let them be.

By following these instructions, you have now prevented the problem of an officer asking you to step away and you feeling bad because you have to let go of cspine which you were taught never, ever to do.


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## DT4EMS (Jul 26, 2007)

I agree with ak!

The other thing is most officers............. if they know who you are........... are not going to PREVENT anyone from rendering aid. LEO are no different than EMS. The overwhelming majority are great at what they do. Then there are that few (that get the most attention) that do not need to be in the field!


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## firecoins (Jul 26, 2007)

most LEOs don't bother you.  In my experience most LEOs don't want to initate care. They just want EMS to handle it.  If passerbys are doing it and not killing the patient, ley don't do a thing.


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## bstone (Jul 27, 2007)

This accident occurred while I was driving down a road in the National Forest. It was very remote and far, far away from any ambulance. I was rather shocked when the LEO prevented me from caring for the human beings who were laying on the ground bleeding.

It changed my perpective of law enforcement. My first cousin is the chief of police in a town close to me. I volunteered for four years as a Law Enforcement Explorer when I was in my teens. I seriously considered going into LE. Since this experience, however, I can't consider it.


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## beckoncall62 (Jul 27, 2007)

*Le*

I was in law enforcement for almost 11 yrs-up until I had my kids. This was back in the '80s and early '90s. My partner, in addition to being a police officer, was also a paramedic and a firefighter. We were members of a rural police dept., responded to all aid calls-and very often were first on-scene. Of course law enforcement was very different in a lot of ways back then. It can also vary from area to area-state to state. Now I'm looking at things from the perspective of an EMS provider. I was very interested in hearing everyone's different experiences with this subject and appreciate your  responses. Thanks


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## davis513 (Jul 27, 2007)

bstone said:


> This accident occurred while I was driving down a road in the National Forest. It was very remote and far, far away from any ambulance. I was rather shocked when the LEO prevented me from caring for the human beings who were laying on the ground bleeding.
> 
> It changed my perpective of law enforcement. My first cousin is the chief of police in a town close to me. I volunteered for four years as a Law Enforcement Explorer when I was in my teens. I seriously considered going into LE. Since this experience, however, I can't consider it.



Why would you let the actions of one person change your perspective on an entire profession and all the other men and women in that profession?


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## bstone (Jul 27, 2007)

davis513 said:


> Why would you let the actions of one person change your perspective on an entire profession and all the other men and women in that profession?



As his supervisor who was on scene didn't care when I informed him that his officer was preventing me from treating human beings who were laying on the ground bleeding.

He said, "He's the arresting officer. It's his call." He was very smug and gave me a look of "get the hell outta here, kid". I was NOT impressed.

Oh...and these were officers with the US Forest Service. Federal Agents, if you will.


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## Emtgirl21 (Jul 27, 2007)

I've had officers say dont go talk to so and so because we rather they go to jail than the ER. A lot of people will go to the hospital just to get out of going to jail. However, if we say your suspect really does need to go to the hospital they won't stop us.


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## Jon (Jul 28, 2007)

Brad - I'm sure there is more to the story - if the subject was in custody, the officer may have not wanted you interacting with him, as the officer doesn't know who you are... since you aren't the local EMS.


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## firetender (Jul 28, 2007)

In the situation that you initially described, you were holding traction on a potentially seriously injured person. I assume you wouldn't be holding traction on someone as a casual decision.

In that case, you are committed until someone else more qualified than yourself will either pick up from where you're at or take full responsibility for the patient's welfare.

Since I've done this before, with no consequences, simply do not budge, making sure it's clear you are immobilizing an injury, and say, "Officer, I'm committed to this injured patient now. If you want me to stop what I'm doing you're going to have to arrest me because under no circumstances will I abandon my patient."

It's a clear statement that notifies the Officer of his liability and your professional attitude, and asks him to re-think his judgment or do something physically to prevent you from rendering care. That's the choice you're presenting. Few LEOs (hopefully none!) will interfere once so notified. 

Sometimes, you're going to have to defend the safety of your patients like a junkyard dog and be willing to put yourself on the line in the process.


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## bstone (Jul 28, 2007)

Jon said:


> Brad - I'm sure there is more to the story - if the subject was in custody, the officer may have not wanted you interacting with him, as the officer doesn't know who you are... since you aren't the local EMS.



Jon, I presented my EMT license and I had a BLS trauma bag on me. None of them were being arrested, but they were subject to ticketing. Remember- they hit the vehicle of the Forest Service LEO and he was REALLY steamed about it. The LEO even barked at me to get away. He clearly lost control of his anger.

It was disturbing to see and even more disturbing that his supervisor didn't step in. "More to the story" or not, there were people laying on the ground bleeding.


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## BossyCow (Jul 30, 2007)

We interface a lot with national park and national forest personnel.  I've run into more of those types of situation in that area than with any other agency.  I think there might be a bit of ... "We are too real.. emt's, paramedics, cops, enforcement officers......" at work.  While I have worked with a few who were wonderful, in my experience, the majority have a difficult time seeing over the chip on their shoulders.


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## medic5740 (Jul 31, 2007)

*communication before the incident*

No one here so far has indicated that there was any communication before the incident between EMS and the law enforcement officers.  I know that rural areas are different, but we have to take the time to meet any new officers who arrive in our rural area.  We need to have some conversation with them about when we expect to be called, when we shouldn't be called, and when we are willing to help the officer out, if he needs it. 

Now matter what situation occurs in the rural areas, the best that can occur is proactive planning.  So, I would walk into the office of the officers in this discussion, and begin a line of communication with them about this.  Having been an auxiliary officer, and EMT, FF, and paramedic, all these issues can usually be resolved with communication.  If the officers don't respond positively, then it's time to get supervisors involved, yours and theirs.  I would want this issue resolved so that the next volunteer who stops to help an injured person would not get the same kind of treatment.  

I, too, am assuming that the volunteer who stopped to hold c-spine was doing so for a good reason, probably based upon the mechanism of injury.  If there wasn't any serious mechanism of injury, why would you hold c-spine?  I also agree that a straight-forward communication to the officer about the liability (s)he is assuming by ordering me to abandon the patient.  After the fact, that liability issue is a great discussion point with the officer's supervisor. 

I am glad that I have never personally been ordered to stop patient care on an injured patient by a law enforcement officer.


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## bstone (Jul 31, 2007)

Communication is great. But when you have an angry cop who doesn't care....well....you're in a tough spot.

The situation I was in was I was camping with friends and happened upon this accident. So communication wasn't an option other than my presenting my EMT credentials and offering assistance to those who were laying on the ground bleeding.

It was shocking and at least one other poster here and confirmed this behavior by USFS LEOs is not unique.


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## BossyCow (Jul 31, 2007)

The issue we have with park personnel is their transience.  They tend to move through different parks pretty quickly.  They might be here for a month, a week or just a couple of shifts as fill in from some other park.  

Our local National Park and National Forest people put a new crop of EMT's through class every year and tell them they are on their own for CME and certification.  We generally get those interested in going on with an EMS career at the end of a season looking for an agency that will sponsor them after the park has laid them off.  They have had little or no hands on experience and no ongoing training.


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## jmaccauley (Aug 1, 2007)

As emergency care providers, we all have our "turf" battles. When administering patient care, police will generally not interfere, other than to monitor what is happening. However, there have been occasions when the EMS personnel or the police don't communicate very well with each other. There are different priorities and with a little cooperation, both can achieve their objectives. The horror stories that both professions can relate to will often dictate their actions. If a police officer has care and custody of a "patient", a smart EMS provider will have to pick his battles, as they say. I have dealt with overly liberal Docs who refuse to treat an injured prisoner until the handcuffs are removed, effectively putting others at risk of violence. On the other hand, I have witnessed police officers refuse to allow medical treatment for an injured or sick prisoner, that ultimately resulted in lawsuits or worse. It's about communicating your intentions, not your authority.


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## bstone (Aug 1, 2007)

I believe one of the biggest problems with Law Enforcement is they have too much power. Assume for a minute that the really steamed cop decided I was bad news and decided to arrest me. Any judge that would see that would likely laugh, but not before causing me time, frustration, fear, hiring a lawyer, etc. All because I (or another EMT in my position) pissed off a cop.

What sort of complaint can we have against cops who refuse our legal responsibility to care for the sick/injured? Not much. Tell our supervisors, who call the LEO's supervisor who promises to "talk to him about it".

Seems to me that there should be some mechanism in which we can make a complaint about an LEO and there be a formal investigation based on the complaint. Moreover, an investigation *not* lead by that LEO's dept. LEOs have too much power. The gun and badge give them a chip on the shoulder. 

While a vast majority of LEOs are great, I can't help but to think about the ones who are not. Like the dozen or so Chicago PD officers who are now in jail for beating totally innocent civilians. Makes me sick to be a Chicagoan.


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## jmaccauley (Aug 1, 2007)

Speaking of chips...You seem to have fallen into that trap of lumping all officers into your little world. I have the utmost respect for paramedics, even though I have seen patients expire while in their care. Maybe it would have happened regardless, but the family members will forever blame the medical treatment for the death. 

Complaints against police are routinely handled internally and occasionally will require federal intervention to resolve an issue. If this is your personal opinion, it may affect the way you interact with police in the future. Consider the reasons why you are so bitter and I suggest you re-evaluate your career choice.

With authority comes great responsibilty. Not everyone is capable of balancing the two successfully, but as you said, the vast majority can and do. Do not let the actions of the few cloud your judgement of an entire profession. 

Telling a police officer what you WILL do, as opposed to advising what you believe should be done are two different things entirely. If you can check your ego and inflated sense of importance, you can usually deal more professionally with an officer who may have his own "ego" problems.


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## bstone (Aug 1, 2007)

jmaccauley said:


> Speaking of chips...You seem to have fallen into that trap of lumping all officers into your little world. I have the utmost respect for paramedics, even though I have seen patients expire while in their care. Maybe it would have happened regardless, but the family members will forever blame the medical treatment for the death.
> 
> Complaints against police are routinely handled internally and occasionally will require federal intervention to resolve an issue. If this is your personal opinion, it may affect the way you interact with police in the future. Consider the reasons why you are so bitter and I suggest you re-evaluate your career choice.
> 
> ...



jmaccauley, I am rather confused by your post. Notice where I said that a vast majority of LEOs are great, but a small group tend to ruin it. I am not lumping anyone into any small world. I am simply recounting my terrifying experience of an LEO who completely lost control and prevented me from treating human beings who were laying on the ground and bleeding. He hid behind his badge and gun in denying this. 

When someone complains to our medical director/state agency about an EMT there is a major investigation. When someone complains about an LEO there is often little to no official investigation and the "good old boy" mentality sets in. That profoundly disturbs me. It should disturb anyone.


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## jmaccauley (Aug 1, 2007)

Again, I believe that you had a personal and bad experience, but to state that little or no investigation is conducted, or about the "good ole boy" mentality is a gross generalization. I'm frankly a little concerned about you being ashamed to be a Chicagoan, but then, I'm not from Chicago so maybe there is a reason for that. If that one bad experience is why you chose to mention it here, you need to get past it. I know of no public servant (police, fire or medic) who would allow you from treating "human beings," who need emergency medical attention. Of course, if you just wanted to do an assessment, that might not be the emergency that you imagined it to be.


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## bstone (Aug 1, 2007)

I can see we will have to agree to disagree. I firmly believe, through my own experiences and the dozens of cases of police officers being arrested and convicted of brutality, that some (a minority) of LEOs have too big a chip on their shoulder. They hide behind the badge, gun and their departments do a miserable job in responding to complaints. Had it not been for the videos clearly showing the outrageous actions of the Chicago PD officers, the female bartender and the businessmen who were attacked for no reason at all would have been arrested, charged with bogus crimes and none of this would have  ever made it to the news.

I respect Law Enforcement. My 1st cousin is the chief of the local PD. I was a Law Enforcement Explorer in my teens. But I have also seen scary, dangerous people who wield a badge and gun. More oversight and mandatory investigations are absolutely necessary.


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## jmaccauley (Aug 1, 2007)

I surrender. Thank God doctors are perfect or we'd be in trouble. Now, stop worrying and start studying. I'll still protect you.


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## Ridryder911 (Aug 1, 2007)

Okay, I have sit on the side lines and watched the comments. As one that has worked as a medic, and Police medic, I have seen both sides. 

Yes, there are several gun toting, ego arse holes, that get their jollies from their job. Fortunately, there is a job that stills allows many of those characters to still be a bully. I have seen this attitude on all levels of LEO. Now, I have also seen quite the opposite as well. Personally, I don't care for many officers because of that type of attitude.

However; bstone, I am surprised that you were not arrested. It was technically still a crime scene. A felony had occurred (it was Federal property that was damaged) and it was * his * scene, not yours. Remember, it is common sense when an officer or something has just happened to one, to use prejudice's thinking. Emotions are running high, and that is definitely not the time be unaware of the situation. 

Since this was technically a crime scene, they need to be sure that is treated as such. I don't know many troopers or officers that particularly want a "Johnny Be Good" rescuer to start impeding upon that. My troopers, local LEO, and even myself usually refuse "off duty" assistance. There is a reason! As well, they have been trained to recognize gross injuries and when and if need to call for EMS. Remember, they can determine and perform care, just as much as you can, since you are off duty (therefore, you are acting as a 1'st responder). I too once was naive. I have learned, on calls involving LEO, they will tell you when they need help. The same on fire scenes, and even medical/trauma calls with other medics... tread lightly. It is not so much ego, as it is at their discretion.. albeit good or bad, they are ultimately responsible... not you. 

Now, with that saying, if you changed your outlook on LEO's on something as minor as describe, wait until you get into medicine. Unfortunately, I have seen more ego's and piss poor care that was intentionally delivered by physicians. Again, NOT all!  I have seen multiple physicians and a Chief Resident refuse to treat or administer certain medications, get or obtain inadequate lab tests; perform unnecessary surgery, because of the appearance of the patient, or having poor social status, or the lack of money. If you don't think that doesn't occur, and still continues.. you need to rethink things. Medicine is definitely, not like it is on T.V. !

Again, not all physicians are so arrogant and lacking professional judgement, but I continue to see many that perform many procedures for their sake, not the patients.  

Unfortunately, this is reality.. no matter where or what state you live in, it happens and unfortunately happens frequently.  

Does this mean one should condone it? NO! However; one needs to know how to pick their battles and fight wisely. Reporting such behavior, has been the demise of many former[/] medical students. Change occurs within, and very slowly... like wisdom. 

Remember, not education is received in the classroom... there is the school of life. 

R/r 911


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## bstone (Aug 1, 2007)

Rid,

It wasn't as if I ran into the scene. I approached the LEO at the perimeter, identified myself as an EMT and inquired if he needed assistance with those who were on the ground bleeding. (Yes, they were laying on the ground bleeding. I am not making this up.) He was enraged that I would even offer assistance and barked at me to get away. Which I did.

I don't think what I did was wrong in any way. If a civilian would approach the same LEO and ask "what's going on?" the LEO wouldn't have any grounds for arrest. What would be the charge? 

It was painfully obvious that the LEO was so steamed about his car being dented and being inconvenienced by having to fill out the accident reports that he simply lost his temper and cool. 

But consider the choice of evils: Assume that the patients were in really bad shape, but the LEO was so angry that he didn't care (this has happened in the past). What is an EMT to do? If you do nothing you are violating moral, ethical and possibly legal obligations to the patients. If you try to treat then you run the risk of interferring with an LEO and being arrested.

So....what to do?


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## Ridryder911 (Aug 1, 2007)

Like I said, I have been in such dilemmas. Most states do not require off duty medics to render aid. Ethical, moral... hmmm that is a personal issue. Personally, I myself no longer stop or perform any medical care on my off duty status, nor do I know any professional Paramedics that do as well. This is usually from previous experiences such as you described or dealings from multiple rescuers of other EMT's, LEO, and nurses.. 

Chances are EMS is not that far away, and if they are conscious, then usually the injuries are not that severe. As well, I do not carry any medical equipment or jump bag with me either, I outgrew that years ago. I will however; call for a unit if one is not responding. 

Really, other than getting tied up awaiting for help, holding C-spine or bandaging a few wounds here or there, what I am going to do? If the injuries are more severe than that, my first-aid is not really going to change the outcome. 

By far, I am not condoning the LEO behavior, rather than attempting to allow you to learn off this call. There will be certain situations and predicaments, one has to swallow the bitter pill. Then there is situations, one has to be a patient advocate and fight... the decision on when and how is the hard part. 

I am sure that the LEO was steamed about his cruiser being hit. Again, think of the situation.

Let me ask this scenario: If there is an officer struck by a GSW and a suspect that is shot as well, and let's say the suspect is slightly worse.. which gets transported first? ........

If you said the suspect, you need a life lesson. Rescuers and officers take priority.. Since the rescuers mind will be on their fellow comrades, get them out ASAP, that way work can continue. In regards of LEO, be street smart. Remember who covers your arse out there... not everything is black and white. 

Yes, I have seen numerous of officers, yell and scream at people to get back in their car or proceed. Interfering with an investigation and producing an unsafe situation is a broad term, that can be used non-discreetly. I thought this was just the normal behavior of most LEO's. 

So to answer your question.. What would I do? Well, if I did so happen to stop. I would ask the officer if he needs help... If he says no and it appears to be a *major* trauma patient, then I would ignore him and take the chance. Deal with it later. However; if it was a non-major MVA; I would not stop. If I so happened to have to; I either would await for him to cool down, or ask another fellow officer later if they would like assistance or if EMS has been notified? 

If it appears the scene is getting ugly, I much rather leave than be involved with such mess. Trust me, you may be right, but you will NOT win. He is legally responsible for them, if he is a real arse, get his name to later report him. The scene is not the place for confrontation, especially if it can be avoided. Again, use common sense and street sense instead of emotions.

There are multiple issues, that they never teach or one may never be exposed to until it happens. I know. I have been handcuffed, arrested by the Police, reported to, yelled at, spit at, had a loaded gun to my head, knife at my throat, taken hostage, etc.. None of those were ever part of my classwork or even in my job description! In many of the situations, you do the best you can and learn, and hopefully make the right decision. 

Again, know when and where to pick your battles. Don't be shocked of what you might see and attempt to deal with it appropriately. Remember the long term effects instead of the short time benefits. 

This job is not easy....  that is why they pay us the big bucks !

R/r 911


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## jmaccauley (Aug 1, 2007)

Thank you Rid for making some very level headed points that I missed. Years ago, I was a certified EMT and was a first responder in most cases. I changed agencies where the fire/medics had a very fast response time and were used to handling all of the medical problems without PD assistance. I was stabilizing a patient in a MVA (crash) while awaiting the medic arrival. The very first words out of the mouth of the medic was, "get away from that guy and let us do what we get paid to do!" I was shocked and wanted to explain what I saw during my initial patient assessment. The look I got was priceless. "We do our own assessments and we'll call when we need the cops." I was insulted, but they were right. Should I have reported them for a lack of diplomacy? No. The most basic approach that every brand BLS provider is taught is, "I know first aid, can I help?"


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## bstone (Aug 1, 2007)

Interesting. The few times I have stopped to help the local rescue was relieved and thanked me profusely. Once I stopped to help a guy who face-planted from his motorcycle at 75mph on the highway, not wearing a helmet. Turned out to be a cop and his chief was my 1st cousin. I got mucho thanks then.

Some states do have a law that if you are certified anywhere you must stop. Vermont is one of them and I drive through Vermont on a pretty regular basis. It's also a pretty rural state and EMS might be an hour away, so you just might save a life if you get involved.


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## Ridryder911 (Aug 2, 2007)

Not to pop a bubble, but as of yet.. I have never seen a traumatic patient saved with just basics. Unless it is an oddity of an airway obstruction or a single external hemorrhage. Realistically speaking, and even scientifically trauma is a surgical disease. We only identify wounds, hopefully maintain an airway and somewhat .. possibly slow down shock syndrome (this is even debatable). If you are an hour away and truly a real trauma patient (category I & II, with a severe TRISS Score) let's face it, your screwed. It does not matter, how many EMT's and medics are there. Hopefully your homeostasis will sit in and one can maintain permissive pressure. 

For as states mandating EMS to stop, that would have to be their state EMT's and as well, someone would have to know that your a medic. Whom to say it is not a family member driving my vehicle? etc... It has been around for a long while, yet poorly enforceable. 

I believe we get to "wrapped up" in a hero syndrome. Research has shown that we actually do very little (ALS and BLS alike) to change most outcomes. It is more we prevent further injuries and damage from occurring than actually treating and curing any injuries or illnesses. As well , we appropriately triage and making sure that patient is sent to the best and most appropriate facility in a timely manner. 

Remember, we have than a 10% success rate on getting anyone back and less than that as a true survivor (mental functions). In trauma the numbers are worse...  

So yes, our job is needed but we have a long way to go before we acclaim success or fame as "saving anyone". 

I am by far not saying not to stop or don't get involved. Just realize the realistic outcomes as well as not to criticize those that do not get involved. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Trivia time: FYI: How many law suits does one think there was to bystanders and medical professionals for aiding at a MVA, prior to the Good Samaritan Act? ....






Actually, there were none. _Reader's Digest_ did an article in the 1950's describing physicians were not stopping at MVA's for being worried about litigation. It was not until after that was published, attorneys got the idea to start suing...thanks! 

R/r 911


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## bstone (Aug 2, 2007)

Rid, how do you feel about stopping for MVAs and such in *really* rural areas where you know EMS is a long distance away? More specifically, would that factor influence your decision to get involved?

I hear all the things you say, but a part of me can't simply drive past an accident with no assistance on scene. Know what I mean? I became an EMT to help. I am becoming a physician to really help.


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## firetender (Aug 2, 2007)

You know, Rid, Back in the 1970's, during the transition from Basic Red Cross First Aid to Emergency Medical Technician standards, an eighty-hour course at that time, and even to the transition over to paramedic level of service I saw a hell of a lot of people die out of neglect, ignorance, improper training, and out and out stupidity.

This was all while I was a medic, and most of what I saw was with medics themselves! -- not tending to the basics. 

I really ask you to re-evaluate your stance that... 

>>>I believe we get to "wrapped up" in a hero syndrome. Research has shown that we actually do very little (ALS and BLS alike) to change most outcomes. >>>

There is a profession of EMS now. Standards have really improved from the "load and go" days. Even the crappiest of medics today, Basic or Advanced, is light years ahead of a medic back then in terms of immediately identifying life-threatening situations and doing something without thinking.

The mastering of that simplicity means lots of people get to live today who wouldn't be able to with the level of (or lack of) care available back then.

You're forgetting just how hugely important it is to remember to sweep the airway, lay a patient down who's in shock, immobilize the spine and look for an exit wound. Unless there's trained people around to do it, it won't happen and those guys'll be dead. And all that's only one small aspect of "changing outcomes."

I also ask you to not minimize the huge importance, both in the quality of life and the economic impact of what you, yourself admit:

>>>It is more we prevent further injuries and damage from occurring than actually treating and curing any injuries or illnesses. As well , we appropriately triage and making sure that patient is sent to the best and most appropriate facility in a timely manner. >>>

This is HUGE, Rid! Remember when NONE of this used to happen?

And here's where you're falling for one aspect of the Hero Syndrome yourself...

>>>Remember, we have than a 10% success rate on getting anyone back and less than that as a true survivor (mental functions). In trauma the numbers are worse... 

So yes, our job is needed but we have a long way to go before we acclaim success or fame as "saving anyone".>>>

The bells and whistles of a "save" aren't what we're here for. It's not at all about braying about success. But we really do have the right to acknowledge ourselves and each other for the incredible impact that we do have. Here, you're forgetting all the hugely important things we do even in the most minor of situations which facilitate healing during pivotal moments of human beings' lives. 

Being trained to and capable of influencing the course of the rest of someone's life is not small potatoes. It's an Art, backed by Science.

And as far as the accident scene topic goes: I came up from a time when I noticed most people don't know how to hold their cool in a traumatic situation, that most don't know how to spot other situations of danger or injury, that most people don't know the basics of first aid, and even fewer can recognize that you may look good now, but in ten minutes you'll probably be doing the Tuna! I don't know that that's much different today.

That's why, when I come across an accident that's got "that look" I'll stop. I'm much more discerning now than in the past, but I will at least pause to scan an ugly scene for potential. I'll ask cops if they need medical assistance. If I see an important gap need filling, I'll step in. 

Maybe I've seen too many people die from stupid mistakes.

My intention behind this response is to remind all of you just how far your work reaches, and how important it is. Saving lives is one aspect, and Rid's right, it don't happen much (not in the grabbing-from-the-Jaws-of-Death way, anyhow), but let's not forget how working with the subtleties of the profession can do something just as incredible; CHANGE lives.

The essence of the profession IS changing outcomes!


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## bstone (Aug 2, 2007)

My apologies if this seems like I am tooting my own horn (which I am to a certain extend). The article below describes quite well how the Forest Service and Parks Service LEOs are over the top. Take special note of how the Parks Service LEOs pulled over the county sheriff in her POV and treated her quite rudely and unprofessional. Emphasis added.



> Published on Capitol Hill Blue (http://www.capitolhillblue.com/cont)
> American gestapo
> Created 07/28/2007 - 4:02am
> 
> ...


 
It is fortunate that the political mechanism was able to stop this from occurring, but it is quite clear that there are significant issues and abuses which are ongoing.


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## jmaccauley (Aug 2, 2007)

My final point is this: believe it or not, police officers are trained to administer first aid. They know how to stop the bleeding, open an airway and treat for shock while awaiting the medics. You point out a few bad apples and decide that you have a much more respected and professional position in life. You have said several times how you have respect for the police, but you refer to isolated incidents with Forest Rangers as indicative of law enforcement. You can't have it both ways. So, post your overly dramatic last word and get back to your calling of being a doctor some day. As I said, I'll still protect you when you need it.


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## Chimpie (Aug 2, 2007)

I'm closing this thread for 48 hours to allow everyone to take a deep breath before responding anymore.


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## ffemt8978 (Aug 7, 2007)

This thread is open again, provided that everyone remains calm and civil.


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