# Bad news for the NREMT



## bstone (Apr 24, 2009)

> "Ironically, one of the reasons why the District selected the NREMT certification process is to ensure test integrity," Chief Dennis L. Rubin said in the statement. "If in fact these allegations are true, the D.C. Fire and EMS Department will be greatly disappointed that both the NREMT and Pearson VUE Training Center failed to meet our expectations."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/23/AR2009042304902.html

Ouch! I wonder how they did it and how it was discovered.


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## VentMedic (Apr 24, 2009)

> "Ironically, one of the reasons why the District selected the NREMT certification process is to ensure test *integrity*," *Chief Dennis L. Rubin* said in the statement. "If in fact these allegations are true, the D.C. Fire and EMS Department will be greatly disappointed that both the NREMT and Pearson VUE Training Center failed to meet our expectations."


 
This is not bad news for the NREMT. This is Chief Rubin making himself look stupid to take the heat off his FFs who cheated on an EMT-B exam. The* integrity* of the exam wouldn't be an issue if the FFs and Chief Rubin knew the meaning of this word.


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## bstone (Apr 24, 2009)

Well, this is bad news for the NREMT as in the news article was very bad for them. As far as who is to blame, the Chief is ultimately responsible for the behavior of his employees.


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## Jon (Apr 24, 2009)

OK - How hard is the EMT-Basic exam exactly? I haven't taken it in several years - but PLEASE... it isn't really complicated. Basic immobilization, O2, CPR, and med admin. REALLY folks!


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## VentMedic (Apr 24, 2009)

Jon said:


> OK - How hard is the EMT-Basic exam exactly?


 
28% from Washington DC failed just one NREMT exam last year.

See article on other Washington DC thread.


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## VentMedic (Apr 24, 2009)

bstone said:


> Well, this is bad news for the NREMT as in the news article was very bad for them. As far as who is to blame, the Chief is ultimately responsible for the behavior of his employees.


 
I think those who know the NREMT will see through this mess especially with all the other bad headlines Washington DC has managed to accumulate.


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## AJ Hidell (Apr 24, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> 28% from Washington DC failed just one NREMT exam last year.


That's only slightly worse than the national average.  But if they were cheating, and still did worse than the national average, that's a pretty sad statement on the quality of DC Fire.


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## reaper (Apr 24, 2009)

bstone said:


> Well, this is bad news for the NREMT as in the news article was very bad for them. As far as who is to blame, the Chief is ultimately responsible for the behavior of his employees.



No, it would be bad news for Pearson, if it is proven that their employees were in on it. NREMT does not control Pearson, they contract out to them, to provide the testing.

If all else fails, they can switch to someone else. LIke Silvan learning centers. They do all of FL's testing, so they could probably take over from Pearson nation wide?


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## bstone (Apr 24, 2009)

reaper said:


> No, it would be bad news for Pearson, if it is proven that their employees were in on it. NREMT does not control Pearson, they contract out to them, to provide the testing.
> 
> If all else fails, they can switch to someone else. LIke Silvan learning centers. They do all of FL's testing, so they could probably take over from Pearson nation wide?



Does anyone else see a problem with contracting out your certification to a company which contracts out the testing to a company which contracts out the facility?

That's a lot of steps removed.


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## VentMedic (Apr 24, 2009)

bstone said:


> Does anyone else see a problem with contracting out your certification to a company which contracts out the testing to a company which contracts out the facility?
> 
> That's a lot of steps removed.


 
This is the way many board testings are done. That way the certification/board test agency does not influence the results directly. It also reduces the cost of the exam for certification if the agency does not also have to administer each test. 
The cost is distributed and absorbed by the states and the other agencies.


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## JPINFV (Apr 24, 2009)

bstone said:


> Does anyone else see a problem with contracting out your certification to a company which contracts out the testing to a company which contracts out the facility?
> 
> That's a lot of steps removed.



Not really. Prometric Services does a lot of physician board exams as well as the USMLE and MCAT. As someone who's took the MCAT when it was written and as a computer based test, I'd take the CBT any day over the written. In fact, I'd say that the exam is more secure as a CBT simple because you aren't administering the test to 100 people in the same sitting.


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## Aidey (Apr 25, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> This is not bad news for the NREMT. This is Chief Rubin making himself look stupid to take the heat off his FFs who cheated on an EMT-B exam. The* integrity* of the exam wouldn't be an issue if the FFs and Chief Rubin knew the meaning of this word.



Exactly what I was going to say. It is not the NREMTs fault that people cheated on the exam.


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## EMTCop86 (Apr 25, 2009)

How did they bring "outside material" into the exam? From what I was told by my instructor I can't even wear my weddings rings when I go and take the test.


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## JPINFV (Apr 25, 2009)

EMTCop86 said:


> How did they bring "outside material" into the exam? From what I was told by my instructor I can't even wear my weddings rings when I go and take the test.



Well, it's not like they pat you down/feel you up before you take the test. There is a certain bit of integrity that is required to be assumed to be present by the staff.


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## Sapphyre (Apr 25, 2009)

EMTCop86 said:


> How did they bring "outside material" into the exam? From what I was told by my instructor I can't even wear my weddings rings when I go and take the test.



Hmmm, I believe I was allowed to wear my rings, but, couldn't take much else in.  But, yeah, they don't touch you.


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## VentMedic (Apr 25, 2009)

*Chief Reacts to EMT Investigation, Alleged Scandal*

*Alleged cheating scandal could involve 200*

Updated 6:34 PM EDT, Fri, Apr 24, 2009

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Fire-Chief-Reacts-to-EMT-Investigation-Alleged-Scandal.html


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## Sasha (Apr 25, 2009)

> They do all of FL's testing, so they could probably take over from Pearson nation wide?



They do? Because I tested at a Pearson Vue center when I took the Basic exam last year. 

It's kind of pathetic that even with cheating they still have a significant failure rate. The test itself is simple, but to cheat and still have a failure rate?? I feel bad for those patients in the DC area.


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## Sasha (Apr 25, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> Well, it's not like they pat you down/feel you up before you take the test. There is a certain bit of integrity that is required to be assumed to be present by the staff.



No, but they audio and video record you while taking the test, with some person watching the cameras.


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## rhan101277 (Apr 25, 2009)

Pearson conducts alot of testing besides NREMT.  They do physician board exams, surgeon exams all kinds of stuff.


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## JonTullos (Apr 25, 2009)

bstone said:


> Well, this is bad news for the NREMT as in the news article was very bad for them. As far as who is to blame, the Chief is ultimately responsible for the behavior of his employees.



I still don't understand how this is bad for the NREMT.  It's  not like a rep of the NREMT was there at the time the test was taken and it's not like they knew the students would cheat.  They didn't and don't condone it and I'd be surprised if they don't revoke the registry status of those who were caught.  This isn't the NREMT's fault.  The fault lies with those who cheated and those who probably told them to do it.


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## JPINFV (Apr 25, 2009)

Sasha said:


> No, but they audio and video record you while taking the test, with some person watching the cameras.



True, but if there's a will, there's a way and it's easier to beat the cameras than beat a good ol' pat down.


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## DrankTheKoolaid (Apr 25, 2009)

*re*

I would really be interested in how they were able to bring outside material into the testing stations.  When i did my NREMT Paramedic test i had a horrible cold at the time.  I wasnt even allowed to bring the kleenex that i had brought in with me, i had to use the tissue they had.  I was watched like a hawk through the windows along with the audio/video taping.  

Corky


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## WarDance (Apr 25, 2009)

It would have been easy to cheat at the center I took my test.  The guy told me to sit at any computer in a room full of computers and I was the only one in there.  He sat behind his own computer and walked out several times (pretty annoying actually).  It was winter so I had a coat and he never asked me to leave it anywhere nor did he check my pockets.  I also didn't notice any cameras anywhere.

I don't know why anyone would risk cheating on that exam because it is pretty easy.  If you have taken the class you should pass no problem.


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## Ridryder911 (Apr 25, 2009)

Amazing, people cheat and blame the company that presents the test. No, not that their people lacked integrity and as well not saying apparently their people have to resort to cheating to pass the most simplistic tests. 

Yeah, blame the NREMT for contracting out to a national testing corporation, let's not really get to the source....

R/r 911


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## AJ Hidell (Apr 25, 2009)

I think they should make it easier to cheat.  That way we can catch more cheaters and weed them out before they embarrass the profession.


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## alphatrauma (Apr 26, 2009)

Oh,the righteous indignation.

Okay, so a group of individuals cheated on a national registry exam... I think the world, as we know it, will continue to exist. I'm sure no one here has _ever_ done anything as reprehensible as that accused lot. It _is_ pretty entertaining reading though.

I'll take repudiation and incrimination for $200 Alex... -_-


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## flhtci01 (Apr 26, 2009)

*Just an observation*

I have read a couple of the articles.  Did I miss something? Because I don't recall reading who discovered the cheating or who did the barring of the test site.   Sure reads like the fire department did both but was it them or PearsonVue?


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## Sasha (Apr 27, 2009)

An update: http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0409/616560.html


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## bstone (Apr 27, 2009)

Wow, this looks really bad.

The more details are revealed the worse it looks. Ouch.


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## Ridryder911 (Apr 27, 2009)

bstone said:


> Wow, this looks really bad.
> 
> The more details are revealed the worse it looks. Ouch.



Fire departments cheat?... Oh surely not! Even after we have been told how honorable and wonderful they are! 

Anyone else rememberAlbuquerque little fiasco and seen that nothing was done about it? Or Tulsa's re-certification blunder and again another sweep under the rug?

Intergrity. honor, servitude.. 

R/r 911


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## Kookaburra (Apr 29, 2009)

EMTCop86 said:


> How did they bring "outside material" into the exam? From what I was told by my instructor I can't even wear my weddings rings when I go and take the test.



I was able to bring in one sheet of Kleenex (I had a cold and was dribbling all over) but the staff member who checked me in looked at it before and after the test. I was in awe of her dedication, because that tissue was pretty gnarly after 30 minutes, not gonna lie.


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## bstone (Apr 29, 2009)

From a previous news article it seems pretty clear they all wanted to be tested at one particular facility- even tho it was not the closest. Sounds like an inside job to me.


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## VentMedic (Apr 29, 2009)

bstone said:


> From a previous news article it seems pretty clear they all wanted to be tested at one particular facility- even tho it was not the closest. Sounds like an inside job to me.


 
The fact that the FFs knew they had a better chance of cheating at that facility and took advantage of it just lessens their integrity to a new low.


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## Scott33 (Apr 29, 2009)

Kookaburra said:


> I was able to bring in one sheet of Kleenex (I had a cold and was dribbling all over) but the staff member who checked me in looked at it before and after the test. I was in awe of her dedication, because that tissue was pretty gnarly after 30 minutes, not gonna lie.





Funny right there!


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## JonTullos (Apr 29, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> Fire departments cheat?... Oh surely not! Even after we have been told how honorable and wonderful they are!
> 
> Anyone else rememberAlbuquerque little fiasco and seen that nothing was done about it? Or Tulsa's re-certification blunder and again another sweep under the rug?
> 
> ...



That's a pretty wide bunch you're painting with there.  Saying that all fire departments cheat is like saying that all medics have some kind of God complex.  Of course, I know that's not true.  Stating that fire departments are all corrupt and all cheat is also not true.

It's always the few bad ones that make them all look bad, just like it only takes one bad EMT or medic to make all look like a bunch of loose cannon whackers.  That's right up there with someone who told me that all medics and EMTs are "on drugs" and "sleep with their partners."


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## Ridryder911 (Apr 29, 2009)

JonTullos said:


> That's a pretty wide bunch you're painting with there.  Saying that all fire departments cheat is like saying that all medics have some kind of God complex.  Of course, I know that's not true.  Stating that fire departments are all corrupt and all cheat is also not true.
> 
> It's always the few bad ones that make them all look bad, just like it only takes one bad EMT or medic to make all look like a bunch of loose cannon whackers.  That's right up there with someone who told me that all medics and EMTs are "on drugs" and "sleep with their partners."



I am only quoting their leaders such as IAFF and IFCA acclaims on why they do not want the NREMT and prefer local tests to be designed to "fit" their system. Now we know why..? 

Sorry, true not all are bad. Yet again, I have found very few that can wear but so many hats.. and why should they? I may not be the sharpest crayon in the box but seriously to be proficient in medical care alone is a full time job; not including fire tactics, hazmat, code safety, etc... One can be only so good as a jack of all trades and a master of none. 

Look at the news as more and more exposure that is occurring; worse is no action is taken. 
If this was the medical community, there would be an outcry! 

R/r 911


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## rmellish (Apr 29, 2009)

Washington DC Fire and EMS were the subject of a JEMs article a few months ago regarding their aggressive steps to improve their standing as an EMS system. 

From the January 2009 issue:
Article: "From Worst to First? Washington DC Overhauls Its EMS System" 


"We hope folks will stay tuned in. We feel strongly that we will meet the challenge to become a premier system, a world class service." - Dennis Rubin (69)

"I think we're going to have one of the best systems in the country and, boy, are we looking forward to that after being on the bottom so long. - Daniel Dugan (69)  

The root of the problems above might incidentally be mentioned in the article where it states "DCFEMS firefighters don't have the option: (to remain in a single fire role) they must become certified as EMTs or paramedics." (67)

Kinda sad....

(Can't find it online, here's the citation, look it up yourself)

Garza, Marion. "From Worst to First? Washington DC Overhauls Its EMS System." Journal of Emergency Medical Services 34 (2009): 64-69.


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## ResTech (May 13, 2009)

> I have found very few that can wear but so many hats.. and why should they? I may not be the sharpest crayon in the box but seriously to be proficient in medical care alone is a full time job; not including fire tactics, hazmat, code safety, etc... One can be only so good as a jack of all trades and a master of none.



I could not agree more!!!! I am very much against fire based EMS for the reasons that each discipline requires so much time and dedication to be the best at each. And its no secret that many Paramedics in cities are only Paramedics or Intermediates because it was required of them for their job to be a Firefighter which is all they really want to do. Most firefighters hate EMS and it shows whenever its forced on them. Patients do not get the same level of care as they would from a dedicated EMS professional.


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## Lunah (May 13, 2009)

Good grief, when I tested at Pearson VUE, it was like entering Ft. Knox ... all the biometrics and stuff. I was waiting for a retinal scan. In reading the updates, it definitely sounds like they had a person at Pearson. 

I get recruitment brochures from DC Fire & EMS all the time -- I live about 75 miles from DC. Gives a whole new twist on the line on the front of the brochure: "Do you have what it takes to work for DC Fire & EMS?" Ha ha ha!


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## medic417 (May 13, 2009)

For enough money and with a little time you can find someone that will bend the rules.


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