# SD EMS wage protest.



## SandpitMedic (May 29, 2015)

http://www.ems1.com/california/articles/2179882-Calif-medics-EMTs-picket-for-pay-increase/

Good for these guys. It's about time they started fighting for a living wage. If McDonald's employees could cause such a ruckus in the national eye hopefully these good folks can bring some heat on low paying EMS employers. We're talking about a city with one of the highest costs of living in the country.


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## 281mustang (May 30, 2015)

It's unfortunately the sad reality of working in a highly desirable area that is oversaturated with EMT's/Medics.


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## gonefishing (May 30, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> http://www.ems1.com/california/articles/2179882-Calif-medics-EMTs-picket-for-pay-increase/
> 
> Good for these guys. It's about time they started fighting for a living wage. If McDonald's employees could cause such a ruckus in the national eye hopefully these good folks can bring some heat on low paying EMS employers. We're talking about a city with one of the highest costs of living in the country.


Not long ago in a city not far away (Los Angeles) a rural metro owned company Pacific/Bowers tried to unionize.  RM brought in a union buster and that ended that dream.  People there make $9 an hour as emts.  20 cent a year raises.  No over time past 8 hours.  Were our own worst enemys.


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## SandpitMedic (May 30, 2015)

I love how no one cares about this, but they'll write all day about trivial garbage such as what trauma shears to carry or whats the best way to administer oral glucose .
I think you're correct @gonefishing
We are our own worst enemies.


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## gonefishing (May 30, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> I love how no one cares about this, but they'll write all day about trivial garbage such as what trauma sheers to carry or whats the best way to administer oral glucose .
> I think you're correct @gonefishing
> We are our own worst enemies.


Well the excuse given in the past has always been emt is a stepping stone not a career.  A burger flipper is a stepping stone in my book lol being a private paramedic is not a long career either just something to get you by until you get that fire job.  Guys like me could care less.  Im hoping to stay a medic well into when I can retire.  I enjoy what I do.


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## gonefishing (May 30, 2015)

To argue the higher education requirement people.  Why more education? Your with your patient for for at a minimum 10 minutes.  A nurse is with there patient for more than a week depending on what type of nurseing shift.  We've adequately proven ourselves.  Fireman got a wage increase.  Fires don't happen everyday yet we praise them like there is.  In the LA area an emt fireman working a bls truck like a private emt does makes $75k and over.  Elgible to retire at 50.  Privates make $9.00 an hour.  Just because they are rolling with a FD they are better?


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## Tigger (May 30, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> I love how no one cares about this, but they'll write all day about trivial garbage such as what trauma shears to carry or whats the best way to administer oral glucose .
> I think you're correct @gonefishing
> We are our own worst enemies.


What is there to say? It's a known fact that Socal is the most oversaturated job market for EMS in the country. Of course wages are going to be on the low side. Not to mention that as far as I can tell fire departments in the region actively oppose private EMS from becoming part of the prehospital care system. 

A problem, yes. But what is the solution? Less providers in the region? Somehow pushing fire out of EMS despite them being a municipal juggernaut?


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## gonefishing (May 30, 2015)

Tigger said:


> What is there to say? It's a known fact that Socal is the most oversaturated job market for EMS in the country. Of course wages are going to be on the low side. Not to mention that as far as I can tell fire departments in the region actively oppose private EMS from becoming part of the prehospital care system.
> 
> A problem, yes. But what is the solution? Less providers in the region? Somehow pushing fire out of EMS despite them being a municipal juggernaut?


Actually there has been a shortage.  I use to tell kids straight up, your not gonna get rich and don't plan on having a family.  This is a job for while you live with mom and dad.


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## RocketMedic (May 30, 2015)

gonefishing said:


> Actually there has been a shortage.  I use to tell kids straight up, your not gonna get rich and don't plan on having a family.  This is a job for while you live with mom and dad.



I just bought a house. It doesn't suck in a lot of places.


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## SandpitMedic (May 30, 2015)

Tigger said:


> What is there to say? SoCal...as far as I can tell fire departments in the region actively oppose private EMS from becoming part of the prehospital care system.



I'll tell you what there is to say. You're profile says CO.... Not CA... So to keep this as amicable as possible... You're not a subject matter expert on what the fire departments in California need or desire. So the more you speak to that the less credibility you have. In other words: ____ ___ ____ __! 

Let fire do what fire wants. It has zero bearing on what private EMS pays it's lowest earners in a given system.


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## SandpitMedic (May 30, 2015)

RocketMedic said:


> I just bought a house. It doesn't suck in a lot of places.


True. Not all places suck as much as others. However, we should stand with our brethren no matter where they are.

In my case. I make a decent living, but I understand their struggle. I side with them.


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## triemal04 (May 30, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> I'll tell you what there is to say. You're profile says CO.... Not CA... So to keep this as amicable as possible... You're not a subject matter expert on what the fire departments in California need or desire. So the more you speak to that the less credibility you have. In other words: ____ ___ ____ __!
> 
> Let fire do what fire wants. It has zero bearing on what private EMS pays it's lowest earners in a given system.


Well, by that arguement, since YOU work in NEVADA you have the same issue and should also do the same.

If you actually think what area fire departments do has no bearing on what EMS agencies in the same areas will do/be able to do and what they will pay you don't understand the problem.

Influence over transport contracts, the ability to provide services in a given area, influence over how much care can be rendered, oversight committees, PR campaigns, competing services, syphoning talent...all ways that fire departments can affect the ability of a private service to do buisness in a given area, which can impact what said service will pay.

Of course the flip side is that a well-established EMS agency can also play the same game.


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## Tigger (May 30, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> I'll tell you what there is to say. You're profile says CO.... Not CA... So to keep this as amicable as possible... You're not a subject matter expert on what the fire departments in California need or desire. So the more you speak to that the less credibility you have. In other words: ____ ___ ____ __!
> 
> Let fire do what fire wants. It has zero bearing on what private EMS pays it's lowest earners in a given system.


That's the best you can do?

This is a discussion board. Sometimes people will say things that you don't like. Instead of telling them to shut up in so many words, defend your argument.


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## SandpitMedic (May 30, 2015)

I worked in southern CA for a year as an EMT. I've been there, and done that. - And now I work in Nevada.

I did defend my argument by stating that you haven't had such experiences in the past.

I resign myself from this debate. I don't care if you disagree with me; believe what you want. I'm not measuring ****s on this forum. Your views, while I have read them, impact me exactly 0%.


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## Tigger (May 31, 2015)

Indeed. By stating that I have no idea what I am talking about, you have therefore proven that your opinions are more valid. 

No one is measuring anything. Again, we are just trying to have a discussion, which is apparently a goal that is not inline with your expectations.


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## DrParasite (May 31, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> Let fire do what fire wants. It has zero bearing on what private EMS pays it's lowest earners in a given system.


I'm sorry, but huh?  How many private EMS workers are waiting to get the job offer from the FD?
 FD 
How many career fire department's suppression units run more EMS calls than fire calls?  most of them? in Ca, all of them?  do you really think the FD doesn't have a stake in what EMS does?  

Think of it this way: if a given area has 3 fire engines and a ladder truck, and only one ambulances, but the FD goes on more EMS calls than fire calls, do you see a disconnect?  if people are using EMS as stepping stones for other careers, particularly on the FD, is that a problem?

What people fail to realize is that there are schools that pump out EMTs by the hundreds.  There is schools that pump out paramedics by the scores.  Then when these new graduates try to find jobs, they are unsuccessful, because they don't exist.  There are more providers than positions, which leads to lower wages.  Why should I pay 30k for a paramedic when I can get a new guy to do it for 25k? 

If you look at NC, you will see poorly paid career firefighters.  compare that to NJ, where you find better paid career firefighter.  big difference?  unions.  EMS is the same way.  I fully support unions in public safety.  Fire, police and especially in EMS.  It has helped in many areas; and very often, you will find those who get paid poorly either don't have unions, or have new unions with horribly negotiated contracts.


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## DesertMedic66 (May 31, 2015)

One of the companies in the county over from me went on strike for hire pay.... the company fired all of the employees who were striking, hired new employees, and then ended up losing the contract because during the strike the company was not able to meet their contracted response times


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## gonefishing (May 31, 2015)

DesertEMT66 said:


> One of the companies in the county over from me went on strike for hire pay.... the company fired all of the employees who were striking, hired new employees, and then ended up losing the contract because during the strike the company was not able to meet their contracted response times


Strike Action
In the U.S., as established in the National Labor Relations Act there is a legally protected right for private sector employees tostrike to gain better wages, benefits, or working conditions and they cannot be fired.


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## DesertMedic66 (May 31, 2015)

gonefishing said:


> Strike Action
> In the U.S., as established in the National Labor Relations Act there is a legally protected right for private sector employees tostrike to gain better wages, benefits, or working conditions and they cannot be fired.


From what I understand the company found a loophole. They moved the employees from full time to part time. When they hired the new employees there were no shifts for the part timers to pick up so they were fired for failing to meet their contracted part time shift requirements.


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## gonefishing (May 31, 2015)

DesertEMT66 said:


> From what I understand the company found a loophole. They moved the employees from full time to part time. When they hired the new employees there were no shifts for the part timers to pick up so they were fired for failing to meet their contracted part time shift requirements.


You still can't be fired.  If they did fire everybody it's a really costly mistake.  It violates federal labor law as well as a legal contract between the union and the company.  If they strike with out the union thats known as a wildcat strike.  Usually it takes 80% of the employees to vote for a strike and is always a last resort when all efforts between the union and company have failed.  They probably swept the issue under the carpet depending how big the company.  BUT it is also unlawful to demote one and hire another for the same job with out offering to subject A.  Same goes for layoffs.  Within a 6 month period if your hiring after you laid off, you have to offer those laid off workers their former jobs back.


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## gonefishing (May 31, 2015)

Also if full time work is available but not offered can also be seen as segregation or black balling.


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## SandpitMedic (May 31, 2015)

We seem to take for granted the knowledge bestowed upon us based on years of research and intelligent debate. I can't count on my hands and feet combined the number of family members and friends who immediately turn to me for medical advice. Whether that is a knee replacement, a PFO, cessation of smoking, breast cancer, or a simple cut on the hand that does not require much. We are in this life. We love this and we live this everyday. We forget how knowledgeable we actually are. While to one person a procedure may seem a monkey skill... To anyone else it would be a life altering, life saving skill that they couldn't imagine doing. I'm not talking about the Hollywood aspect. Im talking the 645am drunk chick that slams into a telephone pole and crushes her jaw... There is blood, there are teeth, there is tissue, there is a 99.99% chance she meets her maker. There is a company of rescuemen assigned to control the power lines and her car. There is a battle for her airway amongst responders due to the safety concerns. She is provided bag valve mask rescue breathing with high flow oxygen while they cut her out for 23 minutes while the top of her is exposed yet nothing invasive is done. Then she is transferred to the paramedic ambulance (private) where she is treated. Through the blood bubbles a secure airway via ET tube is estaished at a ventilation rate of 8-10; there are teeth, emesis, and little anatomical guidance due to the destruction of her head. She is provided an analgesic (low dose) to prevent airway or circulation issues. A large bore IV is established with volume replacement. And she's transported to the trauma ER.

Later she is found to have been discharged. She now lives a quality of life equal to what she had, with the added burden of driving drunk and killing her best friend.

Life sucks.
We are here to do what we can to make it better. I could give two ****s if you are a basic or a medic from California or Florida... Don't you dare tell me what I have or haven't done. Don't you tell me "for what we do we make enough" or "for our time actually responding we do okay." That is brainwashing ********. I have been to the valley of the shadow of death. And I have overcome it. I don't have a hero complex. I'm an anon on an Internet forum, so **** you. I don't care for anyone to hear my stories. But don't tell me my opinion doesn't matter like I'm just some ******* trying to persuade you that private EMS deserves better.
We all deserve equal treatment and pay; we all have the same cert and do the same job. ALL OF US! The police, the fire departments, the paramedics. The RN at the triage window....
ALL of us! We all put our necks out there, and we all make a difference. We don't do it because of public support. We do it because we care.

We are professionals, and as soon as we start acting like it we will get what we have earned and deserve.


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## squirrel15 (May 31, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> We seem to take for granted the knowledge bestowed upon us based on years of research and intelligent debate. I can't count on my hands and feet combined the number of family members and friends who immediately turn to me for medical advice. Whether that is a knee replacement, a PFO, cessation of smoking, breast cancer, or a simple cut on the hand that does not require much. We are in this life. We love this and we live this everyday. We forget how knowledgeable we actually are. While to one person a procedure may seem a monkey skill... To anyone else it would be a life altering, life saving skill that they couldn't imagine doing. I'm not talking about the Hollywood aspect. Im talking the 645am drunk chick that slams into a telephone pole and crushes her jaw... There is blood, there are teeth, there is tissue, there is a 99.99% chance she meets her maker. There is a company of rescuemen assigned to control the power lines and her car. There is a battle for her airway amongst responders due to the safety concerns. She is provided bag valve mask rescue breathing with high flow oxygen while they cut her out for 23 minutes while the top of her is exposed yet nothing invasive is done. Then she is transferred to the paramedic ambulance (private) where she is treated. Through the blood bubbles a secure airway via ET tube is estaished at a ventilation rate of 8-10; there are teeth, emesis, and little anatomical guidance due to the destruction of her head. She is provided an analgesic (low dose) to prevent airway or circulation issues. A large bore IV is established with volume replacement. And she's transported to the trauma ER.
> 
> Later she is found to have been discharged. She now lives a quality of life equal to what she had, with the added burden of driving drunk and killing her best friend.
> 
> ...


Huh? I think it would be best you just stop posting... Your going on a tangent that's unjustified, unless somewhere a post was moderated that I didn't see.

I agree to both sides though. I hate how little I'm paid, especially where I live and the hours I work to make a decent living. But, I work IFT as an EMT, we are hired based on having a pulse and being capable of showing up to an interview after applying. And in a 50 hour week I may work a total of 15 of those hours. To say I deserve more money, quite honestly I dont believe that I do, even if I was a medic, I dont believe the amount of actual work I put in deserves higher pay. No matter how much I would like it, even with those days running nonstop for 12 hours, the next 3 or 4 days I could be doing nothing.

I feel we have an important job within the EMS field, but even on 911, considering the amount of actual hours worked in a week, justifying more pay can be difficult. Yes there are days you have to deal with awful situations and you get to go home feeling good about yourself for doing something, and feel you deserve more pay. But what about those days you sit doing nothing? Should you company not have to pay you then since you did nothing? Would you like to be paid how EMS workers used to be, where it was all dependent on the calls you ran? Higher pay for running calls, but no pay of you do nothing. No thank you.


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## MrJones (May 31, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> ...We are here to do what we can to make it better. I could give two ****s if you are a basic or a medic from California or Florida... Don't you dare tell me what I have or haven't done. Don't you tell me "for what we do we make enough" or "for our time actually responding we do okay." That is brainwashing ********. I have been to the valley of the shadow of death. And I have overcome it. I don't have a hero complex. I'm an anon on an Internet forum, so **** you. I don't care for anyone to hear my stories. But don't tell me my opinion doesn't matter like I'm just some ******* trying to persuade you that private EMS deserves better.
> We all deserve equal treatment and pay; we all have the same cert and do the same job. ALL OF US! The police, the fire departments, the paramedics. The RN at the triage window....
> ALL of us! We all put our necks out there, and we all make a difference. We don't do it because of public support. We do it because we care.
> 
> We are professionals, and as soon as we start acting like it....


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## SeeNoMore (May 31, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> We seem to take for granted the knowledge bestowed upon us based on years of research and intelligent debate. I can't count on my hands and feet combined the number of family members and friends who immediately turn to me for medical advice. Whether that is a knee replacement, a PFO, cessation of smoking, breast cancer, or a simple cut on the hand that does not require much. We are in this life. We love this and we live this everyday. We forget how knowledgeable we actually are. While to one person a procedure may seem a monkey skill... To anyone else it would be a life altering, life saving skill that they couldn't imagine doing. I'm not talking about the Hollywood aspect. Im talking the 645am drunk chick that slams into a telephone pole and crushes her jaw... There is blood, there are teeth, there is tissue, there is a 99.99% chance she meets her maker. There is a company of rescuemen assigned to control the power lines and her car. There is a battle for her airway amongst responders due to the safety concerns. She is provided bag valve mask rescue breathing with high flow oxygen while they cut her out for 23 minutes while the top of her is exposed yet nothing invasive is done. Then she is transferred to the paramedic ambulance (private) where she is treated. Through the blood bubbles a secure airway via ET tube is estaished at a ventilation rate of 8-10; there are teeth, emesis, and little anatomical guidance due to the destruction of her head. She is provided an analgesic (low dose) to prevent airway or circulation issues. A large bore IV is established with volume replacement. And she's transported to the trauma ER.
> 
> Later she is found to have been discharged. She now lives a quality of life equal to what she had, with the added burden of driving drunk and killing her best friend.
> 
> ...



I completely agree with you about supporting EMS workers who are organizing on the job, but your post seems a little dramatic. If we want to be treated like professionals we can't go around talking about the shadow of death and all of our heroic airways. We are employed in EMS. It should be considered routine to intervene in the ways you have described.


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## EMT2015 (May 31, 2015)

squirrel15 said:


> I feel we have an important job within the EMS field, but even on 911, considering the amount of actual hours worked in a week, justifying more pay can be difficult. Yes there are days you have to deal with awful situations and you get to go home feeling good about yourself for doing something, and feel you deserve more pay. But what about those days you sit doing nothing? Should you company not have to pay you then since you did nothing? Would you like to be paid how EMS workers used to be, where it was all dependent on the calls you ran? Higher pay for running calls, but no pay of you do nothing. No thank you.



How is this any different from fire? You could say the same thing about fire, but yet they still get payed way better than EMS.  Where I live, I wouldn't be able to live off the pay of an EMT.

Side note: Why is everyone acting like 5-year-olds trying to prove their point?  What kind of message do you guys think you're sending to the newbies like myself?  I think it's time to start acting like the great EMS professionals that you guys are.


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## squirrel15 (May 31, 2015)

EMT2015 said:


> How is this any different from fire? You could say the same thing about fire, but yet they still get payed way better than EMS.  Where I live, I wouldn't be able to live off the pay of an EMT.



The difference is private and public services. Which is why EMTs and medics working for FDs on an ambulance make more. In a private service, their end goal is to make money, where as the public government services are just that, a service. While it sucks, we all have to understand capitalism, and with that, they are going to try and do more with less, so they make more.


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## gonefishing (May 31, 2015)

squirrel15 said:


> The difference is private and public services. Which is why EMTs and medics working for FDs on an ambulance make more. In a private service, their end goal is to make money, where as the public government services are just that, a service. While it sucks, we all have to understand capitalism, and with that, they are going to try and do more with less, so they make more.


Not true.  Alot of private services are actually cheaper than most ems based FD's.  Most of the funds have been scrutinized as well because instead of going to simple things they have to go buy the big giant international brand ambulance because it looks like big red.  Alot of it is justification for fire jobs.  The IAFF likes to keep private ambulances out of the game.


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## squirrel15 (May 31, 2015)

gonefishing said:


> Not true.  Alot of private services are actually cheaper than most ems based FD's.  Most of the funds have been scrutinized as well because instead of going to simple things they have to go buy the big giant international brand ambulance because it looks like big red.  Alot of it is justification for fire jobs.  The IAFF likes to keep private ambulances out of the game.


Are you talking billing wise? Or overall cost? I was being narrow minded in my post and addressing only pay of employees


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## SandpitMedic (May 31, 2015)

SeeNoMore said:


> We are employed in EMS. It should be considered routine to intervene in the ways you have described.



EXACTLY! So don't compare me to a burger flipper or a garbage man. We _routinely _do those kinds of things, and we should be paid a living wage. 

That's my point. Dramatic? Sure, but it drives my point home.


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## gonefishing (May 31, 2015)

squirrel15 said:


> Are you talking billing wise? Or overall cost? I was being narrow minded in my post and addressing only pay of employees


Overall cost.


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## JPINFV (May 31, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> I'll tell you what there is to say. You're profile says CO.... Not CA... So to keep this as amicable as possible... You're not a subject matter expert on what the fire departments in California need or desire. So the more you speak to that the less credibility you have. In other words: ____ ___ ____ __!
> 
> Let fire do what fire wants. It has zero bearing on what private EMS pays it's lowest earners in a given system.




That doesn't make it less true. I can always post the hack jobs that the OC Fire Departments were releasing last year when OC was introducing private company paramedics. The press reports that the OC firefighters were releasing make Loose Change look sane.


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## squirrel15 (May 31, 2015)

gonefishing said:


> Overall cost.


No arguments from me here, like I said I was narrow minded in my post.


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## SeeNoMore (May 31, 2015)

I think everyone deserves a living wage. I don't think I'm more heroic than a garbage man. We are medical professionals. Not heroes.


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## 46Young (May 31, 2015)

What are their work hours? 40? 42? 48? 56? That is important.

$15/hr on a 40 hour schedule is horrendous for San Diego, but if you're working an average 48 or 56 hour week, then you're doing quite well for private EMS. The difference in pay would be $39k/yr vs $48,360 vs. $57,720. Remember, this is private EMS. Most people use it as a stepping stone job, and there is plenty of supply, so the wages will never compare well to hospital based EMS, let alone fire based. 

When I lived and worked in NYC, the private EMS salaries were static, $9/hr to $10/hr starting for BLS, and $19/hr to $21/hr for medics, with paltry raises. So, if San Diego is paying $15/hr for new medics on a 40 hr schedule, they are being underpaid for private EMS. If $15/hr is starting for a basic, they're doing quite well, IMO. Northern VA pays EMT's $9-$10/hr, and medics $15-$18/hr, with a high cost of living, equivalent or a little more expensive than the outer boroughs of NYC. You're not going to do much better than that in the privates no matter where you go. It sucks, but that is how EMS is across the country.

As others have said, relocation is a must if you have your heart set on EMS as a long term career, and cannot (do not want to) get hired by a fire department. My family and I moved from NYC to Charleston SC, then to Northern VA to get the career with acceptable salary and benefits. If you're dedicated to EMS, relocation is often a necessary evil to do well financially for the long term.


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## 46Young (May 31, 2015)

Do you agree or disagree with this comment found with the original article?

_Rolando Medina · Chaffey College
About time EMS stands up for our low wages. Very little advancement opportunities unless your extremely fortunate to get picked up by fire. I think that has a lot to do with why more folks in EMS don't complain: they don't want any marks on their work history when applying for fire positions. It's good that a few brave individuals are standing up to management and risking their careers for decent wages in our field._


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## 46Young (May 31, 2015)

Same question, this comment:

_Jack Wilner · Top Commenter · Van Nuys Senior High
Rather than telling the Public what your Hourly wage is, I would like to know what your Annual Income is, as well as the number of hours you work a shift. If you work 8 hour shifts, or 40 hours a week, you have a real issue that needs addressing. If you work 24 hour shifts, and you are paid for all 24 hours, you have no dog in the fight. If you want sympathy, tell the whole truth. I was a Paramedic for 16 years and we worked 10 days a month like the Fire Departments.....our wage was based on 40 hour weeks, with anything more as overtime. If I was making $12 or $14 an hour you are talking a very decent wage. If you work 1 on, 1 off, 1 on, 1 off 1 on then get 4 days off and come back and work 1 on, 1 off, 1 on, 1 off, 1 on, 1 off, 1 on, then 6 days off, (which is standard Kelly days) your 1st week is 72 hours, (40 hours regular and 32 overtime) for a 2 week paycheck..that's $2112 gross, you next check would be slightly lower. By my calculation you are earning about $60k a year without working any of the 20 days off you have a month.....Cost of living is a huge issue in certain areas (San Diego, Los Angeles, Santa Barbara) but industry standard has a lot to do with it. I want you to show me a "Private" Company Paramedic or EMT that's making $100k a year, that's just a lie._


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## Carlos Danger (May 31, 2015)

SeeNoMore said:


> I think everyone deserves a living wage.



As part of the concept of "fairness", I don't disagree one bit.

Unfortunately, results in life aren't based on fairness. The economic reality here is that workers are generally paid for what their labor is worth, rather than how "important" their job is. This is why basketball players and actors who simply entertain earn far more than neurosurgeons who save lives and federal judges who literally set the course for the fate of our republic. It's why nerdy accountants working in the back room of a bank earn far more than E4's kicking down doors in the middle east.

What our labor is worth is determined largely by the educational and experiential investment required to become qualified for the position. Things like the desirability of the locale where the position exists are important factors, too, because that affects the supply of labor relative to the demand for it - in the employer's favor, if we are talking about an in-demand place to live.

For these reasons, it's not a good economic position to be in as someone with one semester (EMT) or even one year (paramedic) of education trying to find a good job in one of the most desirable places to live in the country (San Diego). Protesting probably won't help them much.

Fire and police have convinced society that their mere _availability_ is worth much more than what they actually produce, which is why they are typically compensated so much better than EMS.

EMS won't be compensated the same way until the find a way to get paid for their potential rather that for what they actually do in a typical shift.


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## Flight-LP (Jun 2, 2015)

SeeNoMore said:


> I don't think I'm more heroic than a garbage man. We are medical professionals.


Sadly several posts in this thread completely debunk that opinion.............


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## DrankTheKoolaid (Jun 2, 2015)

First let me say that it really sucks you are unable to make a living wage after taking a single semester course.


Here's the reality. You are a VERY small cog in a VERY large machine. 

That machine runs on reimbursements from federal and state Medicaid and a minority of private pay and private insurance.   Private EMS is just that, a private business that needs to remain profitable to stay competitive in RFP's, equipment replacement and benefit its shareholders. It is a harsh reality, but that is what it is.  

Fire on the other hand are city and county entities and are able to pay higher wages because they are not reliant on reimbursement from services rendered.  As well adding EMS makes the monetary drain in a city/county budget by fire departments more palatable.

Now look at the big picture. Nationwide there are more volunteer EMTs and Paramedics who are likely better trained the most paid responders. And I say that because it is not work to the it is a passion. 

So why would big insurance both government and private increase reimbursements without some major change in  ems system and product?

Until we as a whole do something to improve ourselves we will remain right where we are at.


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## DrankTheKoolaid (Jun 2, 2015)

Excuse the typos, I hate posting from phone


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## EMT2015 (Jun 3, 2015)

DrankTheKoolaid said:


> Now look at the big picture. Nationwide there are more volunteer EMTs and Paramedics who are likely better trained the most paid responders. And I say that because it is not work to the it is a passion.



I have to say that I have witnessed this firsthand.  I am a volunteer EMT and I work with a lot of EMTS/Paramedics and to us it's not work but a passion.  I have seen so much in the last year then I did on my ride-alongs for school.


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## gotbeerz001 (Jun 3, 2015)

EMT2015 said:


> I have to say that I have witnessed this firsthand.  I am a volunteer EMT and I work with a lot of EMTS/Paramedics and to us it's not work but a passion.  I have seen so much in the last year then I did on my ride-alongs for school.


Passion is nice but to be proficient you need call volume. My experience (limited to Northern CA) is that it is difficult to get enough real experience to truly be proficient when you attend (at most) 4 "trainings" per month, work one shift a week   (hoping for a call) and/or respond from home.
I'll take the salty medic if I'm the one on the cot.


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## 46Young (Jun 3, 2015)

Flight-LP said:


> Sadly several posts in this thread completely debunk that opinion.............



True, but I find it amusing that unskilled fast food workers think their meager skills set should command $15/hr, while EMT's get $8 to $12/hr in many cases, and have to deal with liability issues related to pt. care and driving.


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## 46Young (Jun 3, 2015)

DrankTheKoolaid said:


> Now look at the big picture. Nationwide there are more volunteer EMTs and Paramedics who are likely better trained the most paid responders. And I say that because it is not work to the it is a passion.



How did you arrive at the conclusion that volunteer EMT's and medics are better trained than paid employees? From what I've seen, the volunteers typically attend a small fraction of the training and in-service that the career personnel are required to do. We get a fair amount of out-of-service time for drills and such. It would be extremely challenging for a volunteer organization to replicate that, even half of that for most of their members. Volunteer hiring standard and career hiring standards can be completely different (which can go both ways). The call volume of the volunteers will be less than that of career personnel. I run around 70-100 EMS calls per month, depending on how much OT I do, at least 50-60 from by regular hours. What does the call volume of a volunteer that pulls a shift once a week look like? 

There are plenty of experienced providers that don't have the passion that they had when they started, but they still do their job well. Volunteers don't necessarily do poorly at their function, but in most cases the career people will have more overall experience and training.


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## 46Young (Jun 3, 2015)

Remi said:


> Fire and police have convinced society that their mere _availability_ is worth much more than what they actually produce, which is why they are typically compensated so much better than EMS.
> 
> EMS won't be compensated the same way until the find a way to get paid for their potential rather that for what they actually do in a typical shift.



I find that most people don't think about EMS until they need one for the first time, as they don't typically come across medical emergencies in their travels. On the other hand, they see reminders of fire and police presence/events on a regular basis. Most people are concerned with fire hazards and CO exposure in their home, burglary and shady people on their property, and the news gives good coverage of fires, transit accidents, shootings and stabings (yes, traumas are EMS, but the story emphasizes police activity), things like that. You can see it on the road where people cut off ambulances, or refuse to yield, but are irritated when the bus takes more than 3 minutes to get to their house when they're the one in need.


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## triemal04 (Jun 3, 2015)

46Young said:


> Same question, this comment:
> 
> _Jack Wilner · Top Commenter · Van Nuys Senior High
> Rather than telling the Public what your Hourly wage is, I would like to know what your Annual Income is, as well as the number of hours you work a shift. If you work 8 hour shifts, or 40 hours a week, you have a real issue that needs addressing. If you work 24 hour shifts, and you are paid for all 24 hours, you have no dog in the fight. If you want sympathy, tell the whole truth. I was a Paramedic for 16 years and we worked 10 days a month like the Fire Departments.....our wage was based on 40 hour weeks, with anything more as overtime. If I was making $12 or $14 an hour you are talking a very decent wage. If you work 1 on, 1 off, 1 on, 1 off 1 on then get 4 days off and come back and work 1 on, 1 off, 1 on, 1 off, 1 on, 1 off, 1 on, then 6 days off, (which is standard Kelly days) your 1st week is 72 hours, (40 hours regular and 32 overtime) for a 2 week paycheck..that's $2112 gross, you next check would be slightly lower. By my calculation you are earning about $60k a year without working any of the 20 days off you have a month.....Cost of living is a huge issue in certain areas (San Diego, Los Angeles, Santa Barbara) but industry standard has a lot to do with it. I want you to show me a "Private" Company Paramedic or EMT that's making $100k a year, that's just a lie._


Actually, yes I do agree with the point that was trying to be made.  It is one thing to complain about a low hourly wage, and while there is zero debate that many involved in EMS are paid less per hour than they should get, more needs to be considered when looking at a wage and benefits package than just the hourly pay rate.

There are a lot of different schedules out there; some include a few hours (or sometimes a lot of hours) of overtime each week.  Depending on how many, this may* or may not* have a signifigant impact on your monthly pay.  Complaining soley about pay rates makes for a great soundbite, and it does help to underscore the problem and hopefully make the public a little more aware, but there is more that goes into it than that.


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## triemal04 (Jun 3, 2015)

46Young said:


> I find that most people don't think about EMS until they need one for the first time, as they don't typically come across medical emergencies in their travels. *On the other hand, they see reminders of fire and police presence/events on a regular basis.*


What?  You mean people don't care about things until they need them?  You mean EMS as a whole does a **** job of promoting itself?  You mean EMS providers are more likely to sit back and whine instead of trying to force change?  What?  Say it ain't so!


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## DrankTheKoolaid (Jun 3, 2015)

That wasn't a absolute. I have worked with both and I know volunteers medics that would run circles around some ft paid and visa versa.

And that is from what "you" have seen.  Just like likes what I posted has been my experience.  

And just because someone runs "lots" of calls does not make them any better then anyone else. Trust me on that.   The busier a system is, the less QA is performed which means substandard care is being missed.


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## gonefishing (Jun 3, 2015)

DrankTheKoolaid said:


> That wasn't a absolute. I have worked with both and I know volunteers medics that would run circles around some ft paid and visa versa.
> 
> And that is from what "you" have seen.  Just like likes what I posted has been my experience.
> 
> And just because someone runs "lots" of calls does not make them any better then anyone else. Trust me on that.   The busier a system is, the less QA is performed which means substandard care is being missed.


Not necessarily true.  Where I work there is a QA every month and is mandatory attendance.  I run well over a 100 calls a month and HAVE ran circles around a well seasond volunteer.  But this shouldn't be a pissing match and think this talk of volunteers is side tracking this whole subject.  This is a subject for those of us that are trying to provide for ourselves or familys.  A mcdonalds job is something you do in high school or college living with your mom and dad.  EMTs have way more responsibilitys and held to a higher standard.  I made more in highschool washing dishes than I did my first emt job.  $10.00 an hour washing dishes back when minimum wage was $7.55 an hour.  Hell I think it was less? When I got my emt, I was making $8.25 an hour.  I continued on with my education got a degree, my pay NEVER matched my education when I got my Pcard it did by a few dollars lol.  Now im a paramedic with a degree.  I make $12 an hour.  I make about $30k a year after tax, insurarnce, 401k.  Im gonna make the same as a burger flipper? When they raised the state minimum to $9.00 alot of emts are still making that.  Why????
Tell you why because the same people that say "oh its just a stepping stone" and fight against representation are the same people that are there 3 years or more down the road.  Thats some stepping stone you got there!


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## DrankTheKoolaid (Jun 3, 2015)

Case in point, you run 100 calls, so does every other Medic on your system.

Who exactly reviews each of those charts?


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## gonefishing (Jun 3, 2015)

DrankTheKoolaid said:


> Case in point, you run 100 calls, so does every other Medic on your system.
> 
> Who exactly reviews each of those charts?


That would be 4 individuals that do a rough scan and anything which stands out for review.  But again this isn't a pissing match and has nothing to do with wages vs cost of living.


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## wirk242 (Jun 9, 2015)

I worked in this system as both a BLS emt and a ALS medic.
Even though I was a medic I had to work BLS for a few months until a spot opened up for field training.

You work 7 12hr shifts in two weeks. So 4 shifts one week and 3 the next. Each car except for the float units has a day and night shift.

EMTs make 10 an hour and medics make 13 an hour with over time after 8 hrs.
There are a few 24 hour kelly shifts available and as a emt you get paid minimum and I think as a medic you get 11 an hour. Its all straight pay for the full 24 hour with no OT unless you work outside your shift or have to hold over.

On the bls side if you work weekdays you get run pretty hard with back to back transports, paper pcrs and you are treated like poop by management. 

ALS can be even busier, most days you just run from call to call to call in the "vortex". Transport times are very short and sometimes you get so far in the weeds with paperwork you hope for a long hospital delay to catch up. 

Medic 11 was listed as 3rd busiest medic unit in the country and the other city units are just as busy. 
I think the reason why San Diego is so busy for its side it due to the special populations. Due to the favorable weather there is a large homeless and elderly population. It is also so close to the border and gets a lot of spill over from Tijuana. It also doesn't help that company can't/won't upstaff.

When I was working nights I couldn't sleep at all during the day. I would maybe get 8 hrs of sleep during 4 day go-around. It eventually messed up my sleeping patterns so much that even on days off I couldn't sleep. I felt like a walking zombie. 

I work for a different company now and make less money but actually have a decent quality of life.


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## 46Young (Jun 9, 2015)

DrankTheKoolaid said:


> That wasn't a absolute. I have worked with both and I know volunteers medics that would run circles around some ft paid and visa versa.
> 
> And that is from what "you" have seen.  Just like likes what I posted has been my experience.
> 
> And just because someone runs "lots" of calls does not make them any better then anyone else. Trust me on that.   The busier a system is, the less QA is performed which means substandard care is being missed.



I can buy into the idea that a volunteer may be more empathetic and more accommodating than a salty, burnt out employee. However, tell me which medic student that you would want to work on you - one that had 50 patient contacts with the acutely ill, or the one that had 5 contacts? I'm using my own experience here - in medic school in NYC, we worked in a tiered system, where we were only dispatched to ALS call types. I saw 2-5 sick acutely ill patients every day. Tomorrow I finish with a medic student that I've been precepting for the past few months. Our EMS delivery is 100% ALS - you're subject to all of the BLS, so my student got to see maybe 5 patients that had potential to crash, and the rest were relatively stable.

Which medic do you want to treat you?

The comparison of medics in an all-ALS system vs a tiered system (King Co. Medic One, FDNY EMS) can be projected onto a volunteer (part time or occasional hours) vs a full time medic. It's essentially the same thing. You need many patient contacts to amass a "Rolodex" of pt. presentations, so that you can say "I've seen this before," and know what to do. Seasoned medics remark about being able to take a 10-20 second assessment of a patient from across the room, and reasonably say sick or not sick. That comes from treating a lot of patients. If you're shot, or have multi-trauma with a TBI from a significant MVC, do you want to be treated at Baltimore Shock Trauma, or some lvl 1 in a sparsely populated rural area that get a good trauma once a week or less? It's all the same thing.


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## RocketMedic (Jun 11, 2015)

I strongly doubt the workers will sway R/M.


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## gonefishing (Jun 11, 2015)

RocketMedic said:


> I strongly doubt the workers will sway R/M.


Sadly it seems to be the truth.  They are hiring and trying to get people in for the mean time.


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## LACoGurneyjockey (Jun 11, 2015)

Sorry, didn't read the thread and might have missed the point, but R/M San Diego is hiring??? Thanks guys


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## RocketMedic (Jun 11, 2015)

13.90 an hour!  Big money there.


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## DrankTheKoolaid (Jun 11, 2015)

I'm curious what the median cost of living there


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## RocketMedic (Jun 11, 2015)

http://www.payscale.com/cost-of-living-calculator/California-San-Diego/Texas-Houston/Paramedic

With R/M's paramedics making a whole 34k a year, how could one ever turn it down?


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## gonefishing (Jun 11, 2015)

RocketMedic said:


> http://www.payscale.com/cost-of-living-calculator/California-San-Diego/Texas-Houston/Paramedic
> 
> With R/M's paramedics making a whole 34k a year, how could one ever turn it down?


Same cost of living as Los Angeles.  The sister company bowers in LA running ift on 10 or 12 hour shifts pays $20.44 an hour to start with full benefits.  Emts, $9.00 an hour. Lol


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## fatkid (Jun 30, 2015)

I have a co-worker that was with Priority One when they went Union.  It can be done, but I think people are afraid.  I for one do not know how a union would benefit us at the line level.


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## fortsmithman (Sep 6, 2015)

Here in my part of Canada firing employees who are striking, and hiring replacement workers is illegal under our labour laws.


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## Aprz (Sep 6, 2015)

In the United States, I believe it is illegal to "fire" employees who are legally striking, but they can be replaced. If the strike is due to non economic reason, the striking employee will immediately get their position back once the strike is over with. If the strike is for economic reason only, the striking employee will get their position back when positions become available. Whether the strike is or isn't for economic reason, the employee can be denied returning if they they did anything like prevent the scabs from working eg blocking them as they attempted to enter the work place, made threats, etc.


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## fortsmithman (Sep 6, 2015)

Aprz said:


> In the United States, I believe it is illegal to "fire" employees who are legally striking, but they can be replaced. If the strike is due to non economic reason, the striking employee will immediately get their position back once the strike is over with. If the strike is for economic reason only, the striking employee will get their position back when positions become available. Whether the strike is or isn't for economic reason, the employee can be denied returning if they they did anything like prevent the scabs from working eg blocking them as they attempted to enter the work place, made threats, etc.



Here in Canada in the provinces of British Columbia, and Quebec it is illegal for employers  to bring in replacement workers during a strike.


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