# Bachelor's Degree in EMS?



## thatSPIKYflip (Jan 1, 2010)

What do you all think of majors in EMS/emergency medicine/etc?

Examples:

University of Pittsburgh

Stony Brook University (SUNY)

I'm a high school student, and I am very interested in EMS. I think that I would be more interested in these programs rather than the usual biology/chemistry/etc majors. I am also interested in getting a bachelor's degree so that I can keep any graduate/professional schools open for opportunities.


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## Seaglass (Jan 1, 2010)

Look at tuition versus future wages, especially if you'll be taking out student loans. EMS and disaster management isn't usually a field that'll make you rich.


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## VentMedic (Jan 1, 2010)

Seaglass said:


> Look at tuition versus future wages, especially if you'll be taking out student loans. EMS and disaster management isn't usually a field that'll make you rich.


 
That depends on his future plans. If he wants to advance into education or go into operations at a county, state or national level, he will be better prepared. You would be surprised at the opportunities in disaster management that have opened up especially if one has field experience AND education.

He also has more opportunity to be on a state or national committee for EMS while he is working as a Paramedic to help shape the future of EMS. Right now there are many RNs in these positions since EMS lacks in providers with advanced education. RNs are also in the higher education management positions in the EMS programs due to a lack of higher degrees.

He can also apply for grants to do research while he is working as a Paramedic.

An education can open up many doors and still keep one in contact with the field and patients.

For the ambitious and those who want a career, not just a job and a union card, there are many opportunities,


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## EMSLaw (Jan 1, 2010)

VentMedic said:


> For the ambitious and those who want a career, not just a job and a union card, there are many opportunities,



Know of any for those with a law degree?


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## VentMedic (Jan 1, 2010)

EMSLaw said:


> Know of any for those with a law degree?


 
Absolutely!  Have you looked at how your state committees are chosen especially when it comes to writing statutes and reform bills?

With some EMS experience (and Paramedic) you would definitely be an assest at least on a committee until the right paid position opens up.


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## EMSLaw (Jan 1, 2010)

VentMedic said:


> Absolutely!  Have you looked at how your state committees are chosen especially when it comes to writing statutes and reform bills?
> 
> With some EMS experience (and Paramedic) you would definitely be an assest at least on a committee until the right paid position opens up.



I'm in New Jersey, I don't think we're big on "reform". 

Thinking of applying to medic school when I get the results of my EMT test back in a few weeks, though.  

I'd know already if we still used NREMT, but we don't.  Take your pick on the explanation - too many people were failing, or there aren't enough PearsonVue test centers (only five or so) in the state.


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## JPINFV (Jan 1, 2010)

Doesn't pay well?

*Emergency Medical Services Administrator*

_The Ideal Canadate_
The required knowledge and abilities would typically be acquired through education and experience equivalent to a *Bachelor's degree* (or higher) in Health Administration, Business or Public Administration, or a* closely related field *and five (5) years experience directing or managing an Emergency Medical S ervices system in a large organization.

_Compensation and Benefits_
$102,643.84 ‐ $131,560.00

http://www.emsa.ca.gov/jobs/files/SantaClaraEMSAdmin.pdf




Here's something to ponder for the people wondering about oppertunities. Why isn't EMS demanding that EMS oversight positions employ paramedics instead of nurses? Imagine what would happen in a hospital if a physician was places in a management position over nurses? Of course when the vast majority of paramedics lack the ground work needed to be in a governement oversight position (read: college degree), it's understandable that the government looks outside the profession to fill the need for oversight. There is absolutely no reason why an EMS system program manager or ALS coordinator shouldn't be a paramedic provided that paramedics had the educational chops to work in that capacity. Can someone explain to me why, other than education, a paramedic shouldn't be in  this $92,000-$132,000 a year position?


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## jrm818 (Jan 1, 2010)

On the other hand, there are multiple benefits to going into one of these programs, especially if you were planning on going to college anyways:

1. If you change your mind, you still have a usable degree.  I am only familiar with the program at U. Pitt (didn't go through it myself), but I assume SUNY is the same.  The first two years of the degree are taking the same classes as most any other science program: general and organic chemistry, physics, biology, etc. all with labs.  If you decide later on that you want to go to medical/graduate school, all your prerequisites should be covered and you came from a well respected school.  AS degrees in EMS don't provide that.

2. you get 2 years to make up your mind.  A huge benefit of large universities with multiple strong programs is that you can change gears partway through your education, and still leave with a great education from a good school.  You can start out and see if you like what you've started.  At least at Pitt, you will almost certianly take the EMT-B class freshman or sophomore year, and have an opportunity to get a feel for the EMS field before you start taking paramedic classes your junior year.  If EMS isn't for you, there are other super strong programs to choose from.  Don't underestimate that flexibility - I can't think of more than one person I know who didn't change majors at some point...only 1!

3. Upwards mobility.  Take a look at the list of the faculty at Pitt, for instance.  These people have all made a pretty good career out of EMS, but it is all based on higher education.  the first step of that is earning a bachelor's.  EMS salaries may be pretty low right now, but with a BS you can go in any of multiple directions after you graduate, or at least maximize your earning potential within EMS.


You do need to seriously consider the cost/benefit of advanced schooling, but so does anyone.  With a B.S. in biology, chemistry, english, physics, etc., there really is not all that much you can do either right out of school.  To make a serious career in any of these fields, more advanced degrees are necessary. 

The simple fact is that an undergraduate degree is probably a poor FINANCIAL choice.  On average you increase your lifelong earnings by like a million dollars or so by earning a bachelors.  It's been calculated (not by me, I saw the calculation done once though) that if you properly invested the thousands you spend on an BS/BA, over the course of a normal working life you would increase your worth by something like 1.5 million.  The reason taht anyone goes to college is that money isn't everything, and flexibility, mobility, growth potential, and self-satisfaction re all part of the equation.  Plus, with a more advanced degree, those numbers may be completely different.


As I said, I decided not to do one of these EMS programs, I got my degree in another field.  I don't have any regrets per-se, as I loved the program I chose (one of the aforementioned can't do much without more education fields) and had a great experience. (my plug for Pitt: I think it's a super school that's overall awesome at supporting its students and ensuring that faculty focuses on their roles as educators..disappointingly I'm becoming aware that this is not the norm at some other schools).  

That said, I'm now starting to contemplate going back to get my paramedic cert.  I'm not sure yet if I will, but it would be sort-of nice at the moment if I had earned a degree (like EMS) that gave me a bit more potential to get a job right now, rather than being forced to pay for yet more schooling until I'm ready to get an advanced degree.


Good luck with your decision.  If you do go to college, whatever you choose remember to consider what you will do if you decide you don't like your chosen major quite as much as you thought.  Backup plans = good.  I know some people love small schools, but I really think the flexibility of large schools with multiple options is HUGE.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jan 1, 2010)

I work with a fair amount of Paramedics who have bachelors. They make the same as everyone else, kind of discouraging. 
You can probably say the majority of EMS providers do not have one. I do however think its safe to say there are at least thousands if not tens of thousands of Paramedics with at least a BA and many many more with AAS. 

So it makes no sense to me why they are hiring nurses for those slots simply because MORE nurses have higher degrees. There are still plenty of Paramedics with BA's or higher, we even have many of them posting on this thread....


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## firetender (Jan 1, 2010)

*You will lead the rest of the fold to the Promised Land!*



VentMedic said:


> He also has more opportunity to be on a state or national committee for EMS while he is working as a Paramedic to help shape the future of EMS. ,



This is the only way it's gonna happen; if medics WANT to get educated. People like you can form a wave that makes this a real profession. Although I'm the first one to call it that, I know it's still got a way to go. Following the lead of Nursing, their first impact was in increasing the numbers of degree programs (by increasing demand). That's how they built credibility, and from that platform, respect and  clout. Now THAT is a profession!


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## 46Young (Jan 1, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Doesn't pay well?
> 
> *Emergency Medical Services Administrator*
> 
> ...



I'll agree, that looks like a decent payoff for a Bachelor's. 

I have questions though - how many of these positions are available, and do they compensate in proportion to the cost of living from region to region? Is this a case where there are only one or several positions throughout the county, or are there many opportunities for this type of career path nationwide? Would it be fairly easy to land this type of position with the proper credentials, or would there be a large amount of competition for only one or two spots? 

I'd hate to spend four years or more at school only to find it prohibitively difficult to land the job that I envisioned, a real scenario that many teachers are facing at the present, to name but one profession.


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## CAOX3 (Jan 2, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Can someone explain to me why, other than education, a paramedic shouldn't be in  this $92,000-$132,000 a year position?



Yes with a bachelors degree you should be earning 132,000 a year.  

Where do I sign up!


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## VentMedic (Jan 2, 2010)

schulz said:


> I work with a fair amount of Paramedics who have bachelors. They make the same as everyone else, kind of discouraging.
> You can probably say the majority of EMS providers do not have one. I do however think its safe to say there are at least thousands if not tens of thousands of Paramedics with at least a BA and many many more with AAS.
> 
> So it makes no sense to me why they are hiring nurses for those slots simply because MORE nurses have higher degrees. There are still plenty of Paramedics with BA's or higher, we even have many of them posting on this thread....


 
How many with those degrees are still working in EMS? 

Considering the number of providers in EMS, 10,000 is not impressive. 

There are many Paramedics with Bachelors degrees on this forum but most are from other countries where that is the minimum to gain entry into the profession.

In the U.S. there is a drawback to getting an education. It opens your eyes to how poor the standards are for entry into EMS in the U.S. and you end up partnering with a 3 month wonder who has no clue about A&P and disease processes.


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## VentMedic (Jan 2, 2010)

46Young said:


> I'd hate to spend four years or more at school only to find it prohibitively difficult to land the job that I envisioned, a real scenario that many teachers are facing at the present, to name but one profession.


 
Those with no ambition will not find a career or even a job easily.  There are still those who must have a union to get them a job and to hang onto it. 

Those with an education will not be limited to being shackled to just one column in the help wanted section.


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## thatSPIKYflip (Jan 2, 2010)

Thanks to everyone for their input!

I'm truly interested in making a career in EMS, but I am also interested in pursuing medicine. I think either of those programs will allow me to pursue my goals for the future.


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## VentMedic (Jan 2, 2010)

thatSPIKYflip said:


> Thanks to everyone for their input!
> 
> I'm truly interested in making a career in EMS, but I am also interested in pursuing medicine. I think either of those programs will allow me to pursue my goals for the future.


 

Loma Linda in California also has a great program which offers different tracks.  The only problem is being surrounded by California EMS.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jan 2, 2010)

I really like this posting from Scott on another thread in the international EMS section. This is just a chunk of it.




Scott33 said:


> The UK has only just (in the last few years) started to roll out mandatory degrees for paramedics to practice. It is still in its infancy, and Scotland Wales, and NI are still in the process of getting the process off the ground. There is the option for current paramedics to do modules which will lead to a degree (just like as it has been in the US for years) but for the rest of the UK, paramedic courses are still being trained the traditional IHCD way. That can be as little as *12 WEEKS*, which equates to about 480 hours including clinicals.
> 
> http://www.scottishambulance.com/UserFiles/file/WorkingForUs/Paramedic Training.pdf
> 
> ...


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## thatSPIKYflip (Jan 3, 2010)

jrm818 said:


> I am only familiar with the program at U. Pitt (didn't go through it myself)



jrm818,

Do you know at what point in the U.Pitt program do students test for their EMT-P? The critical care course requires students to be a certified medic.


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## jrm818 (Jan 4, 2010)

thatSPIKYflip said:


> jrm818,
> 
> Do you know at what point in the U.Pitt program do students test for their EMT-P? The critical care course requires students to be a certified medic.



end of junior year I believe.  I know that some work part time or full time as paramedics while completing their senior year classes.  Again, not positive as I didn't go through the program, checking with pitt would give you the definitive answer.


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## 46Young (Jan 4, 2010)

VentMedic said:


> Those with no ambition will not find a career or even a job easily.  There are still those who must have a union to get them a job and to hang onto it.
> 
> Those with an education will not be limited to being shackled to just one column in the help wanted section.



Sure, but I'd still hate to put my life on hold for four years and then have to wait tables at the local TGIF afterward due to a closed field. 

What I was asking is if the commitment of a four year degree in Health Admin, or Public Admin (Business Admin is obviously versatile) would assure me a position similar to the one posted. It's easy to post something like that, but it means nothing if your chance of landing that type of job is, in reality, slim to none. I'm just asking if the job availability will be there, along with that level of compensation for someone with a BA in EMS. Valid question when considering education for a future career path. Arguably the most important question. 

Would a BA in EMS actually lead to these positions, or would one need to compete against many others for relatively few positions? Would a degree in another field be more likely to land one of those jobs? Important questions that ought not be ignored if your career aspirations lead you in the direction of one of those positions.

I'm asking if a BA in EMS is being falsely misrepresented as a sure thing for one of these positions or if that degree would actually hold that much power. Not a bad question to ask when four years of your young life are being invested.


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## VentMedic (Jan 4, 2010)

Those with education will generally not see a problem with getting a education.  Those without an education will continue to find excuses.  46Young, you have spent most of your life trying to justify why you shouldn't get an  education and you seem to be seeking others like you to validate your lack of education.  

Do not try to discourage those who are seeking more from their chosen career than you have sought.  

Do not discourage those who do have goals in mind and yes, the ambitous can achieve the positions where competition is stiff.  These are the people who do not need a union telling them what to do.   

Do not drag down those who would like to see the Paramedic become a recognized medical professional.  

Do not continue to discourage and criticize those who do want to do quality patient care and not just rely on a few skills and recipes to get them  a FD job with a union card.


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## 46Young (Jan 4, 2010)

VentMedic said:


> Those with education will generally not see a problem with getting a education.  Those without an education will continue to find excuses.  46Young, you have spent most of your life trying to justify why you shouldn't get an  education and you seem to be seeking others like you to validate your lack of education.
> 
> Do not try to discourage those who are seeking more from their chosen career than you have sought.
> 
> ...



So I'll have to assume then that you have no answer to my previous post but instead to lecture me on education and again try to make it a FD thing. Ironically for you my FD upgrades FF/EMT's to medics through a degree program, and requires degrees for advancement, specifically EMS degrees for the EMS career track. Don't project your generalizations regarding the fire service and EMS onto my dept and my dedication to doing well in the field of EMS.

I've spelled it out as clearly as I can why I deferred education. All valid reasons in my particular case, I'd like to hear how they weren't, if you can. I'm not against education per se, but if alternate methods are truly the only viable way for someone to get the position they want, then I can't fault them. In those cases, it's either go the more creative route, or don't do it at all. What benefit would "not doing it at all" hold for someone who legitimately can't do it otherwise?


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## jrm818 (Jan 5, 2010)

46Young said:


> Sure, but I'd still hate to put my life on hold for four years and then have to wait tables at the local TGIF afterward due to a closed field.
> 
> What I was asking is if the commitment of a four year degree in Health Admin, or Public Admin (Business Admin is obviously versatile) would assure me a position similar to the one posted. It's easy to post something like that, but it means nothing if your chance of landing that type of job is, in reality, slim to none. I'm just asking if the job availability will be there, along with that level of compensation for someone with a BA in EMS. Valid question when considering education for a future career path. Arguably the most important question.
> 
> ...



What you get out of any degree program is what you make of it.  I just got an e-mail about my state's updated treatment protocols....we were told to contact XXXX, clinical coordinator, RN if there were any questions.  There's a job that's not even being advertised to those within EMS because it's being taken by a nurse.  It seems to me that that a paramedic should be in this position: someone who is an expert in EMS.  It would take at least a BS to justify replacing the current nurse.

Never mind the plethora of advanced degrees that can be obtained, thereby opening all sorts of opportunities not even being considered here.  Want to get a MPH?  good luck without a BS.  Of course there is no guarantee of being paid more.  There never is with just a bachelors....as I mentioned, its a poor decision to go to college if you only look at the money.  But the opportunities are vastly larger.

The OP sounds like he's going to college one way or another.  He sounds like he's lucky enough to be in a situation to make a decisions about what sort of program to pick, rather than choosing college vs. no college.  In that light, getting a BS in EMS rather than a BS in something else is not such a bad decision.  As I mentioned in general a BS is a poor financial choice, and at least a BS in EMS puts you at the top of the game in your chosen field.

More importantly, it's very nice to have choices.  Getting a -P cert is a great lead in to exactly one thing...being a paramedic.  AS paramedic degree...choices expand to "be a paramedic or go to school to finish my BS"  Get a BS paramedic degree, and the choices for future pathways are much more numerous.  

To me, the pluses for the OP

1. better for patient care and EMS in general
2. more choices (Especially if he decides he doesn't like EMS or wants to do something different...definitely a possibility!)
3. knowledge is interesting, and college teaches you to think.  There's no way to quantify this, but the way information is treated in a serious academic program is special.  Programs that encourage students to learn by understanding and manipulating information, rather than memorizing, provide an incredible service to their students.  Information is only useful if it can be manipulated, and that's a mental task that takes practice.  Not all classes are like this, but if you can find some that are, they are gems that affect how you approach information in any setting.  Not that such experiences are exclusive to BS programs, but I bet they're more common than in non-BS programs.


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## VentMedic (Jan 5, 2010)

46young,

I get it. You do not want to sacrifice anything and can hide in the FD with a union to protect you and to pat you on the back for not promoting education to where it might actually be required someday for the Paramedic. 

I have no more answers for your excuses. You are a grown man of about 35 y/o and have managed to avoid education by justifying you are "a good Paramedic" without any of that education stuff. Maybe you are and maybe you aren't. You still should not be telling young people to just get a union card and forget all that book learnin' stuff. Your life may be a mess and complicated but that doesn't mean everybody's life is like that and others may be able to handle life's obstacles better than you. 

You will probably never change in your attitude and will still continue to justify not going to college next year and the year after and the year after that.


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## CAOX3 (Jan 5, 2010)

thatSPIKYflip said:


> What do you all think of majors in EMS/emergency medicine/etc?
> 
> Examples:
> 
> ...



Definetly, if you have the oppurtunity go to school you should go now while your young.  Can you minor in something?  I wouldnt put all your eggs in one basket either.  You may not even like EMS then what?  Do some research see what the core classes are and if there transferable.  Are there expiration dates, usually sciences will only transfer for ten-years or so in my experience. 

You wont be getting rich in EMS no matter what your education level is.  Leave yourself other avenues if you decide in five years you dont even like EMS.

I always state when asked to spend some time in EMS first, its not expensive to get your foot in the door.  Paramedic school is expensive and basically useless if you decide EMS isnt for you.  I would never try to disuade someone from education because it opens oppurtunities for you. However paramedic or EMT training isnt going to do much for you if your not in EMS.

Just go in prepared because you wont always be a highschool student and it wont always be easy to go to school, things that appeal to you now may not down the road if you prepare you wont have any problems with a career change later on if you choose.

Just my opinion.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jan 6, 2010)

CAOX3 said:


> You wont be getting rich in EMS no matter what your education level is.  Leave yourself other avenues if you decide in five years you dont even like EMS.
> Just my opinion.



First off 

If you want to only work in the field as a Paramedic good luck paying off that bachelors in EMS. 

In the defense of some, most of the people on here who have more college education and those who preach EMT's and Paramedics getting more education, have chosen other fields and unrelated(not EMS) degrees.
Is there anyone on this bored who is just a field Paramedic with a bachelors in EMS? I would like to hear more from you.

As for me, I am almost done with my AAS and I am still deciding if I should go  on to complete a bachelors. The only reason I am even able to consider this is because of my GI bill and veterans benefits. It may not be a good path for others depending on there career goal. IMO


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## CAOX3 (Jan 6, 2010)

Agreed

I would never knock education.  Just research the options first.


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## VentMedic (Jan 6, 2010)

schulz said:


> In the defense of some, most of the people on here who have more college education and those who preach EMT's and Paramedics getting more education, have chosen other fields and unrelated(not EMS) degrees.
> Is there anyone on this bored who is just a field Paramedic with a bachelors in EMS? I would like to hear more from you.


 
My Associates was in Paramedicine and my Bachelors was in Cardiopulmonary Science.  I worked 15 years on ground (mostly FD) and CCT with the other 15 on Flight as a Paramedic.  I wanted a challenge in critical care medicine.   My RN partners are required to have a BSN with the MSN preferred to accompany their many years of critical care experience. 

 Also, those who want to teach at a state college will need at least a Bachelors with a Masters preferred.   Those who want to gain promotions in the FD will find the Bachelors very handy to have.


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## terrible one (Jan 6, 2010)

VentMedic said:


> Loma Linda in California also has a great program which offers different tracks.  The only problem is being surrounded by California EMS.



I will be visiting this campus soon and hopefully (fingers crossed) will apply for the 2011 semester. I have an AS fire science right now but would love a BA esp in paramedicine. Im looking to go the teaching route though


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## VentMedic (Jan 6, 2010)

terrible one said:


> I will be visiting this campus soon and hopefully (fingers crossed) will apply for the 2011 semester. I have an AS fire science right now but would love a BA esp in paramedicine. Im looking to go the teaching route though


 
The SDA life has some quirks but I don't think you'll be disappointed with the education.


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## terrible one (Jan 6, 2010)

SDA life?


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## JPINFV (Jan 6, 2010)

Seventh Day Adventist. Campus closed on Saturday. No EtOH, tobacco, recreational drugs. So on and so forth. Make sure to read the catalogue before going there.


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## CAOX3 (Jan 6, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Seventh Day Adventist. Campus closed on Saturday. No EtOH, tobacco, recreational drugs. So on and so forth. Make sure to read the catalogue before going there.



So much for the college experience.


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## JPINFV (Jan 6, 2010)

> This means that all students are expected to refrain from the use of tobacco, alcohol, and other recreational or unlawful drugs while enrolled at the University.
> ...
> If a student or students are involved in the distribution or use of drugs, alcohol, or tobacco at an on or off campus public or private social event, they will be subject to discipline, up to and including dismissal.



http://www.llu.edu/central/handbook/6a.page

Discussion of mandatory chapel service on Wednesday mornings...

http://myllu.llu.edu/apps/publications/view_pub.php?root_content_item_id=929#550


I'm not sure how the EMS degree application is handled, but I know for the MD program, the secondary application included a behavior contract where they laid all of this out ahead of time.


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## thatSPIKYflip (Jan 6, 2010)

jrm818 is correct. I am fortunate enough to be able to pursue college. Also, I am quite certain in my interest in EMS. I am a volunteer for my town's ambulance squad. While I am not yet an EMT-B, I am just another set of hands to help out the EMTs on the crew. I take vital signs, I sometimes fill out the run sheets (except the narrative), I perform CPR/first aid skills as needed, I interact with patients, and I see EMTs and paramedics on scene and everyone's role in patient care (at least pre-hospital care). I also attend a health sciences oriented high school, which allows me to apply my knowledge from school into practical use. This is why I am quite certain of my choice to pursue a bachelor's degree in EMS/emergency management/emergency medicine/etc.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jan 6, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> http://www.llu.edu/central/handbook/6a.page
> 
> Discussion of mandatory chapel service on Wednesday mornings...
> 
> ...



WOW, How can this school teach science? It seems like a lot of things regarding science would contradict there religion?


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## JPINFV (Jan 6, 2010)

Science and religion are not necessarily incompatible. Albeit the Catholic schools are much more liberal when it comes to student policies, should the Catholic schools (New York Medical College, Saint Louis University, Creighton, Loyola, and Georgetown) be closed down because they are associated in one manner or another with a religious faith?


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jan 8, 2010)

Hey did anyone throw this one out there?

http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~hsdl-p/docs/BS_Health_Sciences_Paramedic_Care_Packet.pdf

If you have the time and the money it looks kind of cool to me. The great thing is its all online and if your currently enrolled in an AAS degree your in!


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## Hellsbells (Feb 8, 2010)

> If you want to only work in the field as a Paramedic good luck paying off that bachelors in EMS.



Maybe the wages in the USA are a lot worse, but there are many places in Canada where one could make a good living. If I was able to take a BA in paramedicine in Alberta, I'd do it in a second.


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