# EMS Turnout Gear?



## CMHills

Hey all,

First, let me say I'm new here, so go easy. Second, I tried searching for this and couldn't find an answer after about an hour, so I have put forth due diligence.

My question is very simply this: Is there a universal norm for the use of turnout gear in EMS Depts. out there? I'll be starting with a private Co. and can't find their specific policies, but I've noticed that turnout gear is fairly common among EMS folks. 

Essentially, I'm trying to figure out if I'll need to get a hold of some bunker gear because like many here, I'm not exactly rolling in the dollar bills and will need to start saving if it's essential.

If there's already a thread on this, I apologize. Remember, I'm a newbie. Speak to me as you would a child.


----------



## Remeber343

As far as my area goes, private ambulance is the secondary responder. They have a contract with our fire department. We do a dual response. For example, car wrecks, we will respond with rescue/engine and an aid car and they will respond with their aid cars. We do the extrication so there is no need for them to use bunks. I'm not sure how it is in other areas were private plays the primary role and FD play secondary, I'm assuming that the FD there will also take care of extrication.


----------



## Remeber343

I would also contact the company and just ask them what they expect. If its work related I would think they would pay for the initial gear.   But it's probably a good idea to give them a call.


----------



## CMHills

Oh I've called them, many times. But they have a rule about releasing policy to non-employees (which I won't be for much longer), which I sort of understand, but I really need to start saving the money if bunks will be necessary.

My Co. is the primary EMS provider in my area, hence the confusion.


----------



## Remeber343

I would think that the FD would still do extrication. Most ems agency don't do that type of stuff. I would sit tight until you are able to ask them, there is no reason to go blow money on 2000$ bunks. I wouldn't worry to much about that.


----------



## Adz

The private service I work for is the primary responder and we don't have bunker gear, fire takes care of anything requiring bunkers.


----------



## CMHills

I thought it was a bit of a long shot. A buddy of mine who just got his medic and is working for the same company just got a set of bunks in the mail and won't keep quiet about them. That's part of why I asked.

Thanks for the info, glad to know I probably won't have to part ways with two grand for an ugly tux.


----------



## exodus

CMHills said:


> I thought it was a bit of a long shot. A buddy of mine who just got his medic and is working for the same company just got a set of bunks in the mail and won't keep quiet about them. That's part of why I asked.
> 
> Thanks for the info, glad to know I probably won't have to part ways with two grand for an ugly tux.



Probably a whacker he is, lol.  If you need bunkers for  a paid service, they will provide them.


----------



## STXmedic

I would think that if they were required, they would be provided. I think it's fairly uncommon for EMS to have bunker gear, it's typically fire's job. That being said, I have "bunker gear" for my PT service (more like a flash suit, just the shells). We also have extrication equipment and a CAFS system on our ambulances...  However, it was all provided, I didn't spend a penny. Definitely hold off on buying any before you find out what the company wants. It's understandable being anxious, but slow your roll a bit


----------



## Martyn

My 'bunker gear' consists of a pair of blue BDU's and a pair of trauma shears...try working in the confines of the back of an ambulance in bunker gear!!!     :rofl:


----------



## ffemt8978

Martyn said:


> My 'bunker gear' consists of a pair of blue BDU's and a pair of trauma shears...try working in the confines of the back of an ambulance in bunker gear!!!     :rofl:



Done it many a time.  It does cause some looks when you roll a patient into the ER and you're wearing bunker gear (and sweating like a pig because of it.)


----------



## medic417

ffemt8978 said:


> Done it many a time.  It does cause some looks when you roll a patient into the ER and you're wearing bunker gear (and sweating like a pig because of it.)



Have you ever seen a pig sweat?:unsure:


----------



## ffemt8978

medic417 said:


> Have you ever seen a pig sweat?:unsure:



Nope.  The closest I get to pigs is when they're on my plate next to the potatoes and veggies.


----------



## Handsome Robb

At my agency we are issued a helmet with goggles, a high-vis vest, gloves (or so I'm told, I haven't seen a pair yet h34r: ) and a Jacket that I guess you could call a bunker jacket although I wouldn't go anywhere near a fire in it, it's more of a shell.

Like everyone said, if it's required it should be issued to you.


----------



## medic417

ffemt8978 said:


> Nope.  The closest I get to pigs is when they're on my plate next to the potatoes and veggies.



http://www.extension.org/pages/4131...ore-are-not-able-to-get-rid-of-toxins-in-thei

"Pigs do not sweat but they are able to rid themselves of heat in other ways such as via their skin and through respiration."


----------



## STXmedic

Martyn said:


> My 'bunker gear' consists of a pair of blue BDU's and a pair of trauma shears...try working in the confines of the back of an ambulance in bunker gear!!!     :rofl:



Not bad at all actually. Gets hot though. Like ffemt said, get plenty of looks when you get to the hospital though  Typically some very welcomed looks


----------



## NomadicMedic

We are issued Globe extrication gear, a Bullard helmet, Kevlar gloves and a few other goodies for when we need to be in the action circle at an extrication. I appreciate that the county provides it and I certainly wouldn't pay for it out of my own pocket.


----------



## Underoath87

ffemt8978 said:


> Done it many a time.  It does cause some looks when you roll a patient into the ER and you're wearing bunker gear (and sweating like a pig because of it.)



But that would be a massive FD rescue, and not an ambulance, right?


----------



## Tigger

Underoath87 said:


> But that would be a massive FD rescue, and not an ambulance, right?



Plenty of fire medics will end up riding in on AMR type IIs here, and anytime it's dark or cold you can be sure they'll be wearing their bunker pants. I can't imagine anyone wearing a bunker coat though, why not just to take it off and leave it on the engine?


Sent from my out of area communications device.


----------



## Remeber343

Underoath87 said:


> But that would be a massive FD rescue, and not an ambulance, right?



More like for a car accident, or if we are just getting off a fire or a divert from a fire to a 911 medical.


----------



## STXmedic

Underoath87 said:


> But that would be a massive FD rescue, and not an ambulance, right?



Nope, just an ambulance.


----------



## DrParasite

my department issues helmets to all field providers.  Turnout coats are in every ambulance.  we do EMS and Rescue.

my former department was EMS only.  we have helmets and coats on the trucks, but it's a one size fits all (in theory anyway, some people are 120 lbs, some are 300+, imagine how well that theory was).  

I purchased my own helmet off ebay, in good condition, because I wanted to have it.  It was partially a hygiene thing, and partially because I was sick of pulling out a helmet for a fire or an MVA and the brackets being broken or bent in a way that made it uncomfortable to wear.  So I always have my own helmet with me when i'm on the ambulance (in addition to my hi viz jacket, winter hat/gloves, flashlights, radio carrying devices, etc).

you shouldn't purchase a full set of turnout gear, your agency should be providing the appropriate level of PPE.  but if you want to get you own, that's your choice, but i wouldn't be spending a whole lot of money of a full set of brand new gear.


----------



## Bullets

Both my volley squad and paid squad issues turnout gear to all members, used to be Morning Pride, now its Lion with Cairns HP3 helmets. Love the helmets, no rear brim to catch on cars or in narrow spaces. We are required to wear them on all MVC and Fires in both towns. Rescue is an EMS skill in both towns. Volley squad also does all technical rescue, so we wear tunrouts for those calls as well, confined space, collapse, rope, ect. Fire just supresses fires.


----------



## epipusher

I'm third service ambulance only and we were issued the ems extrication gear. I wear the pants every shift, that way I can lounge around the fire house in a pair of shorts and flip flops.


----------



## mycrofft

*If you need to ask, you need to be saving that money.*

And not just for turnouts.


----------



## TraprMike

Is there a fed statute that requires EMT s to wear bbp resistant turn out coat and pants on every call? Even non accident calls?


----------



## Akulahawk

TraprMike said:


> Is there a fed statute that *requires *EMT s to wear bbp resistant turn out coat and pants on every call? Even non accident calls?


If there is, I haven't found it. That being said, your company/agency is supposed to provide you with appropriate equipment for you to do your job. They usually require you to wear the PPE under specified situations so they don't get into trouble if you elect to NOT wear PPE. Most of the companies I worked for required that I wear gloves 100% of the time that I was providing direct patient care. If I wasn't touching the patient, I could take the gloves off. For them, it's easier/cheaper to provide gloves/mask/gown than it is to get sued or fined for NOT providing the PPE to the employees. In the ED, most of the time I don't wear gloves and I wash my hands and use the hand sanitizer a LOT. I haven't gotten sick in 2 years of working with people in the ED, even during this horribly nasty flu season. In the ED, they always had appropriate PPE... it was (usually) up to me to decide what PPE was appropriate for a given patient.


----------



## TraprMike

We have one EMT that thinks there is,and ohsa could fine the member, service.  Director. He quotes fed fireman stuff.


----------



## DrParasite

Quite simply, your EMT is wrong.  there is one EMS agency I know of that wears shorts in the summer, and many fire departments do the same, including when they go on EMS runs.  I'm pretty sure their shorts aren't BBP resistant.

and if he's so sure there is one, have him show you the statute.  Or even better, give OSHA a call, they love answering questions about their rules, much more than after a violation has occurred.


----------



## Jim37F

Nice necro bump lol. But yeah no, 99.99% of the time you're wearing a regular poly/cotton blend, maybe Nomex if you've got the extra cash in your pocket lol


----------



## EpiEMS

TraprMike said:


> We have one EMT that thinks there is,and ohsa could fine the member, service.  Director. He quotes fed fireman stuff.



Uh, he is likely wrong*. Yes, they are obligated to provide PPE, but turnout coats, stuff like that, nah - they can get away with much less.

*Assuming that your agency is following standard practices required by OSHA (including those stated in 29 CFR 1910.132 and 1910.1030).


----------



## TraprMike

On the phone now with OSHA...


----------



## Akulahawk

EpiEMS said:


> Uh, he is likely wrong*. Yes, they are obligated to provide PPE, but turnout coats, stuff like that, nah - they can get away with much less.
> 
> *Assuming that your agency is following standard practices required by OSHA (including those stated in 29 CFR 1910.132 and 1910.1030).


This was my basic point. Straight EMS entities can use far cheaper PPE and still have it comply with appropriate OSHA regulations. High-end PPE like turnouts also may comply but it isn't necessary unless the entity also does activities that would trigger the need for turnouts or similar protective gear to meet OSHA regs for those other activities. Clear as mud yet?


----------



## EpiEMS

TraprMike said:


> On the phone now with OSHA...


Smart call. Can't hurt to go to the source.


----------



## TraprMike

Answer is..... Service must have bbp/ppe available to use if needed. If the EMT sees that full body ppe is required, then put it on.  Dude did say. When or if an OSHA inspection happens, full body ems turn out gear better be in ambulance.  So no, EMTs do not have to wear bbp/ppe coat and pants on every call every time.


----------



## Akulahawk

TraprMike said:


> Answer is..... Service must have bbp/ppe available to use if needed. If the EMT sees that full body ppe is required, then put it on.  Dude did say. When or if an OSHA inspection happens, *full body ems turn out gear* better be in ambulance.  So no, EMTs do not have to wear bbp/ppe coat and pants on every call every time.


Actually, full body PPE like _turnouts_ do not have to be on the ambulance. That being said, sufficient PPE must be available on the ambulance to meet anticipated PPE requirements. This is why you normally don't find encapsulating full body hazmat suits with a PAPR or SCBA on board every ambulance, with supplies sufficient for two because not every ambulance is going to be responding to a hazmat incident where the crew needs to work in the warm or hot zone...

What did I usually have stuffed into a pocket for many calls? A gown, hat, shoe covers, N95 mask with splash shield... but I didn't have to wear it on all calls, just the ones where I needed the BBP isolation gear.


----------



## Handsome Robb

Akulahawk said:


> Actually, full body PPE like _turnouts_ do not have to be on the ambulance. That being said, sufficient PPE must be available on the ambulance to meet anticipated PPE requirements. This is why you normally don't find encapsulating full body hazmat suits with a PAPR or SCBA on board every ambulance, with supplies sufficient for two because not every ambulance is going to be responding to a hazmat incident where the crew needs to work in the warm or hot zone...
> 
> What did I usually have stuffed into a pocket for many calls? A gown, hat, shoe covers, N95 mask with splash shield... but I didn't have to wear it on all calls, just the ones where I needed the BBP isolation gear.



You carried all that in your pockets? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Akulahawk

Handsome Robb said:


> You carried all that in your pockets?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Stuff it all into a ziplock baggie and it's amazingly compact.


----------



## Bullets

Our trucks always carried back entry gowns, boot covers, long gloves, N95s, face shields and eye pro.

We now have PAPRs (grant funded due to Ebola/Zika) and, Tyvek suits and SCBAs but thats for hazmat stuff since we started doing that stuff


----------



## AtlasFlyer

DrParasite said:


> Quite simply, your EMT is wrong.  there is one EMS agency I know of that wears shorts in the summer, and many fire departments do the same, including when they go on EMS runs.  I'm pretty sure their shorts aren't BBP resistant.
> 
> and if he's so sure there is one, have him show you the statute.  Or even better, give OSHA a call, they love answering questions about their rules, much more than after a violation has occurred.



I work for a city-operated municipal 3rd service and shorts in the summer are specifically allowed in our uniform regulations.


----------



## TransportJockey

AtlasFlyer said:


> I work for a city-operated municipal 3rd service and shorts in the summer are specifically allowed in our uniform regulations.


County third service here and same deal about shorts

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


----------



## johnrsemt

Old thread;

But I bought EMS bunker pants on clearance at FDIC years ago:  great in heavy rain,  great when it is 15 or 20 below 0 F.  only time I wear them.  I have worn them on winter camps as a Scout Master a few timers too.


----------



## DrParasite

Going back to the original questions, it is my belief that all EMS personnel should be provided turnout gear, provided they have a need for it.  Meaning, if you are expected to be operating in the hot zone at an MVA (being inside a car while disentanglement is occurring), than you need proper PPE.  If you are expected to be anywhere near a house fire, you should have some level of PPE.  if you are expected to go on a construction site, you should have the proper level of PPE.   if you are expected to be providing patient care in the decon area, than you should be issued proper PPE.  All this PPE should be provided by your employer, as mandated by OSHA; should you choose to upgrade what they give you, that is your choice, but if not, employer should be providing it.

The corollary to that is, if you don't do any of the above, you don't need it.  So if you pull up to an MVA, and the FD is responsible for all patient care while in the car, and they remove the patient and they magically appear on your stretcher, no need for turnout gear.  If you pull up to a construction site, and the FD's job is to go and get the patient and bring them to you in the parking lot (while providing all the appropriate levels of care), no need for turnout gear.  if at a house fire, you are supposed to be a block away from anything burning, no need for PPE.

It all boils down to how your particular agency operates, and how their individual SOPs are written, as well as what their employee expectations are.  

So if your employer tells you to stay out of the car, as the FD handles everything because you aren't issued the appropriate PPE, and you get in the car, and get hurt, OSHA will not take action against your employer, because you broke the rules, and went where you weren't supposed to go.

If I did it all over again, I'd likely buy my own helmet again.... and maybe gloves.  But no way would I ever purchase my own turnout coat or pants, those should be provided by my employer.


----------



## Giant81

turn out gear for fire and EMS are different.  While similar in design, the Fire gear will be thicker, heavier, and NFPA rated for structure fire purposes.  The EMS bunker pants will be lighter, and are bodily substance isolating.  

A full set of Fire bunker gear will set a service back about $2000, a set of EMS gear should be about $600.  Don't buy your own, let the service pay for them, and they are only really useful, I think, if you're at vechicle accidents.   

In our area EMS having bunks isn't for doing the extrication, it's for being near the extrication.  Fire is doing the actual cutting, but there will be EMS in the vechicle during extrication to help manage and triage the patient(s).  So our department provides a set of EMS bunks to EMTs to wear for personal protection while on scene and around the vechicle.  Our Fire is also Volunteer, and only a few at best are even at the EMR level.


----------



## Tigger

Love my MedPro gear. Comfy at night, actually breathes during the summer, fleece liner for the winter. Our ambulance paramedics (me) aren't firefighters but we do extrication and "exterior FF" tasks. Do not like the Lion helmet they issue us though, that thing is almost as heavy as a regular fire helmet, fits worse, and is ugly as a sin.


----------



## NomadicMedic

NomadicMedic said:


> We are issued Globe extrication gear, a Bullard helmet, Kevlar gloves and a few other goodies for when we need to be in the action circle at an extrication. I appreciate that the county provides it and I certainly wouldn't pay for it out of my own pocket.



Funny, the quote from 2011 is still true. Different agency but we're still issued a turnout coat, extrication gloves, helmet, and eye pro and it's expected that it'll be worn when you're on a motor vehicle crash. We're wearing Pacific USAR helmets and Pro-Tuff Kevlar/Nomex extrication gear.


----------



## gotbeerz001

Safety gear is the responsibility of the employer… It’s a simple as that


----------



## CCCSD

gotbeerz001 said:


> Safety gear is the responsibility of the employer… It’s a simple as that



OSHA sure agrees with you.


----------

