# Napa Valley College paramedic teacher under fire



## MMiz (Mar 21, 2010)

*Napa Valley College paramedic teacher under fire*

Napa Valley College has hired an investigator to look into allegations against its dean of health occupations.

At least two former instructors and one former student claim that Amy LaPan, the college’s dean of health occupations, is foisting an abusive and discriminatory “boot camp-style” program on students. LaPan is also accused of having inappropriately close relationships with students and using personal reasons to remove instructors from the program.

*Read more!*


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## Aidey (Mar 21, 2010)

I found the issues with the attendance policy interesting 



> "Students currently enrolled in the paramedic program are “subjected to a  hostile work environment,” verbal abuse from instructors and a strict  attendance policy that discriminates against working students, Marks  said.



I know one of the hallmarks of college is the idea that class attendance isn't usually mandatory. However, there are a lot of specialty programs that have strict policies to ensure the students get the hours they need. To me, this is something that should be planned for ahead of time by the student when they look into attending a Paramedic program. 

Now, if the attendance policy changed mid way through the year, I can see where that would be a problem. But if they knew the policy day one of class, they don't have much of an argument.


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## Sasha (Mar 21, 2010)

Aidey said:


> I found the issues with the attendance policy interesting
> 
> 
> 
> I know one of the hallmarks of college is the idea that class attendance isn't usually mandatory. However, there are a lot of specialty programs that have strict policies to ensure the students get the hours they need. To me, this is something that should be planned for ahead of time by the student when they look into attending a Paramedic program.



Plus one, it is not the school that sets the hour requirement, it's the state. 

However there is no excuse to be verbally abusive and I keep wondering where people get the idea that EMS is paramilitary.


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## rescue99 (Mar 21, 2010)

MMiz said:


> *Napa Valley College paramedic teacher under fire*
> 
> Napa Valley College has hired an investigator to look into allegations against its dean of health occupations.
> 
> ...



Students who can't tow the line best stay away from our college if they can't follow simple rules. With our new dean having his own idea of uniform compliance I can't wait until next semester! Our fire and police academy folks walk walls. He's a long time police academy professor 

The requirements for and EMS certification only allows for 10% of any class to be missed, period. Schools do not make the rules all together. 

Students wear uniforms, badges, must look presentable and act accordingly, period. I see absolutely nothing wrong with rules. I do however, see something very wrong with an administrator not doing his/her job. Plus, nasty mouthing is one quick way to lose respect as a leader.


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## MMiz (Mar 21, 2010)

rescue99 said:


> Students who can't tow the line best stay away from our college if they can't follow simple rules. With our new dean having his own idea of uniform compliance I can't wait until next semester! Our fire and police academy folks walk walls. He's a long time police academy professor
> 
> The requirements for and EMS certification only allows for 10% of any class to be missed, period. Schools do not make the rules all together.
> 
> Students wear uniforms, badges, must look presentable and act accordingly, period. I see absolutely nothing wrong with rules. I do however, see something very wrong with an administrator not doing his/her job. Plus, nasty mouthing is one quick way to lose respect as a leader.


Rescue, What college do you go to?  As someone from the Metro Detroit area, I can't think of a single college in the area that has such strict guidelines/policies.

My take on this is that EMS education is facing an identity crisis.  They teach EMS, police, and fire courses at colleges, but want to maintain a military-type structure.  If college students were held to the same standards as some of this crazy academy-type programs, then very few people would be in college these days.  College is about growing as a person, not just a student.

My experience in an academy-like EMS program is nothing like what I saw elsewhere in college.  I loved the program, and thought the experience was great, but I surely wouldn't consider it college.  I was taught to memorize, memorize, memorize, and follow, follow, follow.  I was told who to be and how to act.  Fortunately, I was good at that.  EMS education these days seems to focus less on mastery of concept, and more on recall of facts.

It was funny to see that the college students in the EMS program seemed to hate it most, while students coming right from high school or the fire academy didn't seem to mind.


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## joeshmoe (Mar 21, 2010)

I dont see any reason for running an EMS course like a bootcamp in any way shape or form. SELF discipline might be important for EMS(or any career field) but thats different from enforced discipline. 
In the Marine Corps, our Navy medics were notoriously lax when it came to military style discipline, but I think that was by design. They werent Marines and werent supposed to be Marines, and it's worked out pretty good that way since ww2. 
If they want to make the training stressful, thats fine, but do it in a realistic way. Youre not gonna have some guy yelling at you to hurry up and kicking you in the butt while your hooking an ECG up to a patient on a call.


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## Angel (Mar 21, 2010)

i will not be going there....yikes


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## rescue99 (Mar 22, 2010)

MMiz said:


> Rescue, What college do you go to?  As someone from the Metro Detroit area, I can't think of a single college in the area that has such strict guidelines/policies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## JPINFV (Mar 22, 2010)

Sasha said:


> Plus one, it is not the school that sets the hour requirement, it's the state.



True. However the state of California requires 4000 hours of instruction for medical students with a 70% attendance rate, but there are ways around this. My school, for example, counts watching the lecture online as 'attending' lecture. Of course there's a very big difference in curriculum format, instructional style, and content between EMS courses (regardless of level), and medical school.



rescue99 said:


> I don't see the EMS folks walking walls like fire and PD does but uniformed appearence, polished shoes, belts, tucked in uniform shirts and ID badges are required. Admittedly there is some slack on wearing jewlery and hair during course work but not on clinicals. PD and FD don't get any slack at all. I see our department becoming more strict soon since as we do occupy the same building and frankly, the EMS students aren't as sharp looking. I don't make the rules. I just enforce them. Can't say that it's too difficult but there will always be those who test the water.



I've always maintained that if someone couldn't dress themselves properly for work then they have no business in EMS and any instructor who thinks that jeans and a t-shirt is inappropriate to wear to a lecture is a pompous fool. In my experience, shorts and a t-shirt didn't seem to offend professors in undergrad, grad, or medical school and if that's good enough for PhDs, MDs, and DOs teaching courses, why shouldn't it be good enough for an EMT-P who may or may not have completed a formal education?



MMiz said:


> Rescue, What college do you go to?  As someone from the Metro Detroit area, I can't think of a single college in the area that has such strict guidelines/policies.
> 
> My take on this is that EMS education is facing an identity crisis.  They teach EMS, police, and fire courses at colleges, but want to maintain a military-type structure.  If college students were held to the same standards as some of this crazy academy-type programs, then very few people would be in college these days.  College is about growing as a person, not just a student.
> 
> ...



+1


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## joeshmoe (Mar 22, 2010)

[

No more than 4 classes is indeed all any student can miss, including clinicals and rides. In fact 3 tardies is equal to an absence. Some subjects cannot be missed at all. Basic, Spec and Medic follow the same rules. 

I don't see the EMS folks walking walls like fire and PD does but uniformed appearence, polished shoes, belts, tucked in uniform shirts and ID badges are required. Admittedly there is some slack on wearing jewlery and hair during course work but not on clinicals. PD and FD don't get any slack at all. I see our department becoming more strict soon since as we do occupy the same building and frankly, the EMS students aren't as sharp looking. I don't make the rules. I just enforce them. Can't say that it's too difficult but there will always be those who test the water.[/QUOTE]

Rescue 99: Im sure you have more experience in EMS than me. But I dont understand how a bootcamp type atmosphere would improve EMS education in any way. 
Yes FD and PD training probably does take a more military style approach to their training, but I can possibly see some legitimate reasons why thats done. I cant see much reason to do that with medicine. Do medical school and nursing students stand uniform inspections?
I personally want an instructor who teaches the concepts and knowledge I need to do the job, not one thats watched Full metal jacket too many times and wants to play drill instructor. If some instructor wants to go Lee Ermey on me I'd have a harder time taking them seriously. This isnt because I have an attitude problem or want to take the easy path to an EMS career, its because I dont see that as adding in any way to patient care. It's about learning, not bragging rights.
Again, maybe I'm wrong and thats the better approach, I'm not some EMS guru.


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## JPINFV (Mar 22, 2010)

joeshmoe said:


> Do medical school and nursing students stand uniform inspections?



Some medical schools have uniforms, but most don't. Even the ones that do are sometimes lax. For example, Nova/Southeastern University medical school's uniform is either business or scrubs. As 1 student put it when I interviewed there last year in reference to scrubs, "If they want me to wear pajamas to school, so be it."


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## TransportJockey (Mar 22, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> As 1 student put it when I interviewed there last year in reference to scrubs, "If they want me to wear pajamas to school, so be it."



This is one of the things I loved about working in a hospital  Scrubs are comfy


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## fortsmithman (Mar 22, 2010)

jtpaintball70 said:


> This is one of the things I loved about working in a hospital  Scrubs are comfy



Also EMS members can not be mistaken for LEOs while wearing scrubs.


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## rescue99 (Mar 22, 2010)

joeshmoe said:


> [
> 
> No more than 4 classes is indeed all any student can miss, including clinicals and rides. In fact 3 tardies is equal to an absence. Some subjects cannot be missed at all. Basic, Spec and Medic follow the same rules.
> 
> I don't see the EMS folks walking walls like fire and PD does but uniformed appearence, polished shoes, belts, tucked in uniform shirts and ID badges are required. Admittedly there is some slack on wearing jewlery and hair during course work but not on clinicals. PD and FD don't get any slack at all. I see our department becoming more strict soon since as we do occupy the same building and frankly, the EMS students aren't as sharp looking. I don't make the rules. I just enforce them. Can't say that it's too difficult but there will always be those who test the water.



Rescue 99: Im sure you have more experience in EMS than me. But I dont understand how a bootcamp type atmosphere would improve EMS education in any way. 
Yes FD and PD training probably does take a more military style approach to their training, but I can possibly see some legitimate reasons why thats done. I cant see much reason to do that with medicine. Do medical school and nursing students stand uniform inspections?
I personally want an instructor who teaches the concepts and knowledge I need to do the job, not one thats watched Full metal jacket too many times and wants to play drill instructor. If some instructor wants to go Lee Ermey on me I'd have a harder time taking them seriously. This isnt because I have an attitude problem or want to take the easy path to an EMS career, its because I dont see that as adding in any way to patient care. It's about learning, not bragging rights.
Again, maybe I'm wrong and thats the better approach, I'm not some EMS guru.[/QUOTE]

I am no guru and yes, I have experience. Experience brought me to teach at a school that gives a hoot what we do out there. We're a billboard for our schools, for our employers and for the communities we serve. Showing respect is part of the job so why not start in the classroom?

One of the reasons I choose to teach at this particular college is because it has more than an 80% overall grade expectation of our fututre EMS professionals. Learning that rules and protocols have reasons (including some we don't necessarily like but must follow). They hold a valuable place in training. If someone can't follow a simple attendence policy, comb his hair or pull up his trousers, he is not ready to be respectful or professional out there either. Not to mention the classroom just isn't the place to show off tush crack, sponge bob boxers, g-strings, wife beaters, tramp stamps and clevage. Plus, uniforms takes all the guess work out of what to wear


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## Veneficus (Mar 22, 2010)

joeshmoe said:


> [I personally want an instructor who teaches the concepts and knowledge I need to do the job, not one thats watched Full metal jacket too many times and wants to play drill instructor. If some instructor wants to go Lee Ermey on me I'd have a harder time taking them seriously.



It has been my observation over the years that the people acting like this and promoting academy style teaching usually are trying to hide how incapable they are. That is why they don't want you to question them. Their house of cards would crumble.

Perhaps one of the most important aspects of medicine is being able to understand and relate to different people with different cultures and values. It is also a critical part of the higher learning experience called college.

Fire and law enforcement must be paramilitary due to the inherent dangers of the job and the possibility of being killed for the bigger picture. But even in the military, basic training is prior to your specialty, not concurrent with it. (including for firefighting specialties and MAA/MP)

Another thing most academy style (i'll be generous) "teachers" seem to not know is that in bootcamp, the events follow a guidline and are scripted. In Navy bootcamp the day everyone is classified as fit for full duty there is a reason for what always follows. There is even a binder that describes what the purposes and ways of going about them are. Every recruit is given access to it. Company commanders (drill instructors) just don't make it up as you go. They first have to be trained for what they are doing, and are constantly under evaluation. 

There are also well defined awards for positive feedback.

Do you get bonus points on your job application or promotional exam after EMS academy? Can you be promoted for your ability in the "EMS academy?" NO, but you certainly will be considered lesser of a provider if all you can do is mindlessly treat textbook examples of pathology and spout the national registry tag lines. (especially when you freeze when you come to a situation not covered by the protocol)

Can your actions as an EMT or Paramedic spark an internationl incident compromising the interests of the nation or start a war? Not likely.   

What is really interesting is there are few heroes or noted persons in the military who followed the script. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts nobody ever earned a medal for doing only what they were told. ("good conduct" is for not getting caught doing something wrong )

If a student feels they need that kind of environment and discipline the number they need isn't to the EMT program, it is the local military recruiter. Where the benefits of finishing bootcamp are much greater then applying to the dialysis derby applicant pool. If public service is your thing, you also get a considerable advantage over the nonmilitary applicants. (I have seen up to 10% bonus on civil service exams) Do you get even 1% bonus for completing the EMS academy? NO and if you did the respective agency would be sued for collusion or some form of discrimination.


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## rescue99 (Mar 22, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> It has been my observation over the years that the people acting like this and promoting academy style teaching usually are trying to hide how incapable they are. That is why they don't want you to question them. Their house of cards would crumble.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## JPINFV (Mar 22, 2010)

Ah, punishing for the class for something someone did 2 years ago? Awesome. Additionally, sorry, but your job includes counseling and discussing issues with students who fails out be it for policy violation or academics. That's part and parcel for being a teacher and/or an administrator. This doesn't mean you have to sit there forever, but you shouldn't be blowing it off either. 

"In some cultures." Which cultures should we be basing dress requirments off of? I find it strange that I can sit in a lecture hall with 330 fellow students of all races, religions, and cultures and, strangly enough, we don't have to have the administrators telling us what to wear to listen to a lecture. Shocking. If an attitude is truely affecting the class environment, then you have a duty to work with that student, upto and including explusion, than punish the entire class, and all future classes, for the actions of a few.


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## Veneficus (Mar 22, 2010)

rescue99 said:


> All education entities have rules and policies. It's not military style at all. If  people with no education or background in EMS knew EMS, they wouldn't be in class now would they?? 30 other people are there to learn. They don't deserve a bad attitude disrupting their learning process. There is a world of difference between military style and following a few simple policies. [/B]



It is not the rules and policies I take issue with. If you noticed the part of my post I quoted. 

_personally want an instructor who teaches the concepts and knowledge I need to do the job, not one thats watched Full metal jacket too many times and wants to play drill instructor. If some instructor wants to go Lee Ermey on me I'd have a harder time taking them seriously._

It was the (para)military style training. (usually referred to as an academy or academy style)

I do not take issue with dress codes, I take issue with passing muster. If you have time to line people up and inspect a gig line, you have time to have them sit down and teach them something about basic science. (far more crucial in EMS than whether or not a person has a tattoo showing or a body piercing)

Yelling at, calling people names, or embaressing them in front of peers is not part of the learning process. Nor is demanding corporal punishment of those who fail to memorize a mantra or answer a question. (especially since the answer changes with the more advanced your knowledge)

The idea that you can never question an instructor is equally absurd. They are people who don't know it all and sometimes make mistakes. Moreover, sometimes a student does so to reconcile what one instructor says different than another or applying life experience to the textbook theory.

Fear is not conducive to learning.  

If a school makes you adhere to a dress code, then the student should. Especially if they know what it is up front. But it should be professional without being some $300+ uniform you can only wear in school.

Making sure piercings or tattoos are covered isn't really asking a lot, but again, with all the important stuff to worry about, this seems rather trivial. If a student is distracted by a classmates tattoo or piercing, I can't wait to see how they react to patients in the field. 

If somebody is failing, hopefully it is not news to anyone and prior to failing an attempt should be made for them to recover. If they fail such, then they fail. There are standards that have to be met. If they are speaking out of order, they need to be talked to about it. Immediately if it is so inappropriate and disciplined accordingly.

Let's not pretend for a minute that an EMT-B has a whole lot of room to really hurt or kill somebody outside of driving or dropping them on their head.

Playing drill instructor, dress up, make believe, soldier, and the like I guess are not my priorities. 

A capable provder who has sound clinical judgement and a logical method of making critical decisions is my priority. If they can do that, I don't care if they show up in a thong and a bowtie. (that includes non student providers too) I would rather have a slob who can help then somebody who has a nice uniform and has no medical capability.


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## Veneficus (Mar 22, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> "In some cultures." Which cultures should we be basing dress requirments off of? I find it strange that I can sit in a lecture hall with 330 fellow students of all races, religions, and cultures and, strangly enough, we don't have to have the administrators telling us what to wear to listen to a lecture.



But you are a big boy now.


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## mycrofft (Mar 22, 2010)

*Speaking as former military and current sheriff's dept/P.O.S.T. certified trainer...*

..(and male nursing school survivor)...
I don't mind an instructional course with rigor if it is appropriate as a teaching style. Demonstrate that it yields a better outcome. If you feel that a boot camp environment is so good, advertise it, charge more, print impressive diplomas, hand out swords, whatever. 

Personally, I would set some standards which would get me in trouble: no hats in the classroom, cell phones silent, no texting, any logo or design on or of clothing I find distracting or disruptive I would ask them not to wear the next time, and a defined set of clothes for practicums including closed toe shoes, tops and pants not exposing a lot of skin when working on the floor or table. I would give myself, say, six weeks before I was hounded out.

Weak-ego'ed, tyrannical and self-proclaimed vigilante "instructors" often are one in the same, and they don't HAVE to work in an environment strewn with arbitrary potholes and barriers to success (although they tend to, or will create their own if only within their grading styles). This sort of personality deficit also leads to favoritism and discriminatin, depending upon if you support their ego or not.

Kudos for the investigation, let them spin it out and hopefully come to a truthful and just decision.


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## JPINFV (Mar 22, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> But you are a big boy now.



That's one thing I always ask myself when threads like this pop up. Is the average tech school student really so drastically different than the average college student such that they basically need to have a surrogate mother sitting with them in the classroom? Ok, sure, there's a big difference between a medical student and a EMS student (basic or paramedic), but I have a hard time believing that the average student is a blithering idiot who can't dress themselves.


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## reaper (Mar 22, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> That's one thing I always ask myself when threads like this pop up. Is the average tech school student really so drastically different than the average college student such that they basically need to have a surrogate mother sitting with them in the classroom? *Ok, sure, there's a big difference between a medical student and a EMS student (basic or paramedic), but I have a hard time believing that the average student is a blithering idiot who can't dress themselves.*



What would this big difference be?


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## rescue99 (Mar 22, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Ah, punishing for the class for something someone did 2 years ago? Awesome. Additionally, sorry, but your job includes counseling and discussing issues with students who fails out be it for policy violation or academics. That's part and parcel for being a teacher and/or an administrator. This doesn't mean you have to sit there forever, but you shouldn't be blowing it off either.
> 
> "In some cultures." Which cultures should we be basing dress requirments off of? I find it strange that I can sit in a lecture hall with 330 fellow students of all races, religions, and cultures and, strangly enough, we don't have to have the administrators telling us what to wear to listen to a lecture. Shocking. If an attitude is truely affecting the class environment, then you have a duty to work with that student, up to and including explusion, than punish the entire class, and all future classes, for the actions of a few.



Like I said, rules are made because attitides and actions are sometimes stupid. I remember the final straw which led to uniform policies being made and ultimatley enforced. Some young lady thought it was (and argued) her right to be braless during class....a lot. There was no being reasonable with this person, which is all too common when students attempt to run the school. After 5 complaints from men and women alike, including one doozie from a gentleman of a different culture, the situation had to be addressed through stringent policy changes. Policy has been tested quite a few times each semester as a few will always attmept to run the school and make their own rules. Send one home and somehow a few simple policies don't seem so hard to follow after all. I have no problem with a dean or coordinator enforcing school policy.


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## mycrofft (Mar 22, 2010)

*Reaper: tens of thousands of dollars is the diff.*

A dedicated EMT or paramedic student is as fixated and driven as a person chasing their MD, but most are lured in by fantasies and media hype.
As most of us were, and we should remember! B)


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## mycrofft (Mar 22, 2010)

*rescue 99, a comment*

Often an otherwise good teacher will try to send a person who is not adding their share to a class or distracting from it out, but Admin overrides them for a number of reasons. After that, the prudent teachers lets it go, if they want their jobs.
I was never accused of being prudent.


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## JPINFV (Mar 22, 2010)

reaper said:


> What would this big difference be?



Shall we compare the admissions process for an average medical school vs an average paramedic or basic program?

Shall we compare the attitudes of med school administration vs EMS education (and, remember, medical school does have an hours requirement)?

I have no problem with the concept that I might be a little sheltered about the reality of the quality of the average EMS student, however if so, then the difference has to be there.


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## rescue99 (Mar 22, 2010)

mycrofft said:


> Often an otherwise good teacher will try to send a person who is not adding their share to a class or distracting from it out, but Admin overrides them for a number of reasons. After that, the prudent teachers lets it go, if they want their jobs.
> I was never accused of being prudent.



Wrong. Adminstraion set the policies. Never once been accused of treating some poor student unfairly. Can't say it hasn't happened but it hasn't happened to me.


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## triemal04 (Mar 22, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> That's one thing I always ask myself when threads like this pop up. Is the average tech school student really so drastically different than the average college student such that they basically need to have a surrogate mother sitting with them in the classroom? Ok, sure, there's a big difference between a medical student and a EMS student (basic or paramedic), *but I have a hard time believing that the average student is a blithering idiot who can't dress themselves*.


Think back to your freshman year in college.  Think about all the people that you probably saw who didn't have a clue or know what was expected of them.  Nowadays being 18 isn't a lot different than being 17, or 16...or 12 in some cases.  I think that is part of where the mentality that an "academy style" setting is needed comes from; people who are still very young and emotionally, academically, and life-experience challenged are showing up to class and not knowing what is expected of them and don't have the ability to pick it up.

Of course, if they don't then I don't see any reason why they should remain in the class, or why the entire academic setting needs to be changed to suit a certain subset of people.  Set the standards.  If people don't live up to them, be it academically, or with their attendance or whatever passes for a dress code (if there is one), then it's goodbye for them.


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## joeshmoe (Mar 22, 2010)

My basic class did have students dismissed for reasons not related to testing or attendance... dress code violations of some kind or some conduct issues, mostly during clinicals. We were frequently warned that if the head instructor ran into us during a clinical and we didnt look squared away, there would be problems. I'm sure he communicated with our precepters about our appearance/performance as well.

I can understand raising the dress code standards if thats been a problem in the past. I'm sure its rough trying to teach(or learn in) a class when you have a few students who still act like they are in highschool.

To me it just sounded like there are some courses that take it a little further, and the use of the term bootcamp suggests an atmosphere that seems ridiculous to me. I saw no similiarities working on an ambulance to what the military is like, and saw no reason to treat them like they are similiar.


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## reaper (Mar 23, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Shall we compare the admissions process for an average medical school vs an average paramedic or basic program?
> 
> Shall we compare the attitudes of med school administration vs EMS education (and, remember, medical school does have an hours requirement)?
> 
> I have no problem with the concept that I might be a little sheltered about the reality of the quality of the average EMS student, however if so, then the difference has to be there.



Admission process and admins attitude toward EMS education has nothing to do with the student.

I have know many great students in EMS and Med school. I have also known many slackers in both.

That still does not mean there is a big difference between the two students, just the administration process.


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## JPINFV (Mar 23, 2010)

When was the last time someone was hand wringing that the 'slacker med student' was going to be a huge distraction to class like is seen in regards to EMS courses everytime one of these threads comes up?

Are you denying that the admissions process for medical school weed out students who are going to be disruptive where the most important thing in a lot of EMS courses is making sure that the check clears the bank?


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## reaper (Mar 23, 2010)

Exactly. It is an administration problem.

What I am getting at is there is no big difference in the students. They would be the same, if we weeded out the slackers from EMS. But, until the schools do their jobs, you will end up with some idiots.


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## mycrofft (Mar 23, 2010)

*Thanks Reaper.*

(99, I got your "wrong"...haha).
Sometimes Admin will cut people slack, or they do not enforce their rules, or their rules are unenforceable, or-or-or....basically leave teachers hanging, for the same reason employers rarely give negative references, to avoid trouble.

This post includes charges of fraternization and maybe borderline sexual harassment. Let the investigation begin. OP, follow up for us please.


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## Jon (Mar 23, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Some medical schools have uniforms, but most don't. Even the ones that do are sometimes lax. For example, Nova/Southeastern University medical school's uniform is either business or scrubs. As 1 student put it when I interviewed there last year in reference to scrubs, "If they want me to wear pajamas to school, so be it."


I go to a Ivy-league school's Dental Clinic - there, the students wear scrubs or business attire under clinic gowns... and from what I've seen, especially the advanced specialty programs, the students wear business attire to classes.


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## atropine (Mar 23, 2010)

Schools should be taylored to the community they serve, if your local ems is paramilatary style, then thats how you tech it, if its not then don't teach it that way, around here all the fat lazy medics work in the 951/909.


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## JPINFV (Mar 23, 2010)

atropine said:


> Schools should be taylored to the community they serve, if your local ems is paramilatary style, then thats how you tech it, if its not then don't teach it that way, around here all the fat lazy medics work in the 951/909.



Good to know that the LACo fire fighters in Pomona are fat and lazy.


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## atropine (Mar 23, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Good to know that the LACo fire fighters in Pomona are fat and lazy.



Yeah those county pukes are pretty lazy.


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## Veneficus (Mar 24, 2010)

atropine said:


> Schools should be taylored to the community they serve, if your local ems is paramilatary style, then thats how you tech it, if its not then don't teach it that way, around here all the fat lazy medics work in the 951/909.



That sort of precludes universal education that can be taken anywhere employment arises.


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## Aerin-Sol (Apr 16, 2010)

rescue99 said:


> Like I said, rules are made because attitides and actions are sometimes stupid. I remember the final straw which led to uniform policies being made and ultimatley enforced. Some young lady thought it was (and argued) her right to be braless during class....a lot. There was no being reasonable with this person, which is all too common when students attempt to run the school. After 5 complaints from men and women alike, including one doozie from a gentleman of a different culture, the situation had to be addressed through stringent policy changes. Policy has been tested quite a few times each semester as a few will always attmept to run the school and make their own rules. Send one home and somehow a few simple policies don't seem so hard to follow after all. I have no problem with a dean or coordinator enforcing school policy.




Uh, so does your academy now inspect all female students to enforce the proper undergarments policy?

Not exactly sure what's wrong with a women not wearing a bra -- I assume that when you say "braless" you really mean "she had big breasts and wore low-cut shirts and no bra."




> from buying pizza and beer for the male members of the first class every Friday



From the article. That does sound kind of weird...


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## mycrofft (Apr 16, 2010)

*Last article about this was 14MARCH'10, NApa Valley Register.*

Gone dark.


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