# Paramedics put down Pit Bull



## Jinx (Oct 19, 2009)

Paramedics here in Melbourne, Australia have to put down dog that had locked on to patients arm. 



> Paramedics put down Pit Bull
> 
> Paramedics have put down a dog described by police as an American pit bull terrier that killed a small dog and crushed a man's hand in its jaws.



More: 

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/pit-bull-attacks-man-kills-dog/story-e6frf7jo-1225788097621

http://www.skynews.com.au/topstories/article.aspx?id=384492

Cheers,


Jinx


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## Mountain Res-Q (Oct 19, 2009)

Confused   :wacko:

Neither article states how the animal was euthed.  Obviously this was not a humane euthenasia (no combination of meds I am aware of that are carried on Ambos given by a non-IV route would be capable of effecting a painfree and quick death... I believe... unless someone has a combo that would do the trick)... nor need it have been humane considering the situstion... however, I would like to know what meds were pushed and by which route to euth the animal.

(Just the curiosity of a former Vet Tech)


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## Jinx (Oct 19, 2009)

First article says 





> "We used some sedation and then some paralysing agents.''



Sounds like they used their RSI drugs to Euthanize it? Which I think in melbourne is Midazolam and Succy, Melbourne MICA or Meclin will be able to confirm.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Oct 19, 2009)

Jinx said:


> First article says
> 
> Sounds like they used their RSI drugs to Euthanize it? Which I think in melbourne is Midazolam and Succy, Melbourne MICA or Meclin will be able to confirm.



In my experince working Emergency and Surgical Vet work... Midazolam was crap in Dogs (although some Vets swore by it).  I just never had good experiences with it due to the fact that it did not provide a heavy enough sedation to do anything without combining it with another sedative/anesthetic (such as Ketamine - and even then... meh...).  The point is that even RSI meds (while effective long term in large amounts to effect a euth) would not be a quick option (especially give IM - and I doubt the medics were capable or willing to try and get an IV stick on an attacking pit bull - LOL) nor would it be humane - although, I say again, under the circumstances it did not need to be.

I am curious... given the same circumstances in which you (all forum members) agreed to euth this animal... HOW would you do so.

Personally, MS provides great sedation to dogs (in my experience), especially if given IV.  Just watch out for the vomiting... lol.  Ketamine is also a great choice for HEAVY anesthesia (used an induction agent with Diazapamin by many vets).  Past sedation... other than paralyzing the dog or overdoseing the dog...  ???...  my brand of euthenasia involved pentobarbital (as humane as it goes and something I have never seen on an ambo ^_^)...  Then there is the issue of doseing it... Only 6 months removed form Veterinary Medicine and I can't remember doseages... and in this case (while not worried about overdoesing LOL) I would be concerned that too little was given and we would have to keep attempting give more... 

Frankly... a bullet to the head is fine by me...


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## Meursault (Oct 19, 2009)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> Frankly... a bullet to the head is fine by me...



That struck me as the sensible option. Looks like the cops didn't want to do the paperwork.

Waste of drugs.


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## Sasha (Oct 19, 2009)

> I am curious... given the same circumstances in which you (all forum members) agreed to euth this animal... HOW would you do so.



Axe and a big strong fire fighter off the engine.


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## Melclin (Oct 19, 2009)

Cops don't like to discharge their weapons here in Melbourne unless their's a mental illness involved. Evidently the dog was free of any psychiatric difficulties and the jacks were unable to figure out what to do.

Midazolam, Suxamethonium, Fentanyl and Pancuronium are what we have available. 

We carry ridiculously large vials of Fentanyl (900mcg) for the IN route, so perhaps they poured like 10mg of fentanyl into the thing IM. Then Panc and Sux? Who knows. I ask around at uni, see what the scuttle but is.


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## reaper (Oct 19, 2009)

If they would not shoot it, Then I would have broke it's neck. Quick painless death.


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## Aidey (Oct 19, 2009)

I had to do this I would not use any of our controlled substances. Just the thought of all the DEA paperwork that would have to be done gives me a headache. Which leaves etomidate for sedation and either succs or vec for paralyzing. I would probably give as much etomidate as we have, and then vec.

oh, and where was animal control in all of this?


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## EMSLaw (Oct 19, 2009)

"Charge to 400..."
"CLEAR!"

Well, unless the doggie was actually attached to the patient's arm at the time they were doing all this.


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## Jon (Oct 19, 2009)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> Frankly... a bullet to the head is fine by me...


 
If the dog was still attached to the patient - I actually like the idea of the pharmacological route.

If the dog was shot - well.. first, could the bullet riccochet around the skill and end up in the patient's arm? Second - bone, blood, and other "stuff" is going to likey become airborne onto the patient, and perhaps me. I don't like that idea either.

Either the pharmacologic route or manual stragulation would have been my thought.


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## HotelCo (Oct 19, 2009)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> I am curious... given the same circumstances in which you (all forum members) agreed to euth this animal... HOW would you do so.



My first question would be: Why am I around an attacking pit bull? Sure doesn't sound like a safe scene to me. If for some reason I found myself in that situation I'd look around and see what I could find to kill the dog with that would inflict the least amount of pain. But again, I probably wouldn't have even stayed there until PD secured the scene.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Oct 19, 2009)

Melclin said:


> Cops don't like to discharge their weapons here in Melbourne unless there's a mental illness involved.



In the subject or in the LEOs?  ^_^



reaper said:


> If they would not shoot it, Then I would have broke it's neck. Quick painless death.


 
On a pit?  Good luck with that…  



Aidey said:


> oh, and where was animal control in all of this?



Thinking the same thing… although, the LEOs would, in my area, shot the thing.  We have several recent cases where LEOs shot an attacking dog and were reamed in the court of public opinion because “they could have used a non-lethal means like tazers or their batons.”  Ya, right…    Or the owners could be responsible… OMG… what a novel idea.  



EMSLaw said:


> "Charge to 400..."
> "CLEAR!"
> 
> Well, unless the doggie was actually attached to the patient's arm at the time they were doing all this.



Um… ya… 



Jon said:


> If the dog was still attached to the patient - I actually like the idea of the pharmacological route.
> 
> If the dog was shot - well.. first, could the bullet riccochet around the skill and end up in the patient's arm? Second - bone, blood, and other "stuff" is going to likey become airborne onto the patient, and perhaps me. I don't like that idea either.
> 
> Either the pharmacologic route or manual stragulation would have been my thought.



Okay… so a couple rounds to the chest would be fine instead.  Stangulation?  Um… again… on a pit?  Second, you want to be the one to start choking a pit bull… Jon, Jon, Jon…  :wacko:

“Drugs are good.”  But what and how?



HotelCo said:


> My first question would be: Why am I around an attacking pit bull? Sure doesn't sound like a safe scene to me. If for some reason I found myself in that situation I'd look around and see what I could find to kill the dog with that would inflict the least amount of pain. But again, I probably wouldn't have even stayed there until PD secured the scene.



PD was there.  If you are not needed medically to off the dog, then why would you be trying to find “something” to kill the dog?  The point of having EMS there was to use drugs to kill the thing; otherwise, it was a LEO/Animal Control Issue.  Scene Safety?  I was thinking the same thing, especially when it comes to trying to administer drugs…  LOL… oh the stories…   ^_^


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## fortsmithman (Oct 19, 2009)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> a bullet to the head is fine by me...



If that happened in my town the dog would have been shot by a 12 gauge shotgun.  It would not have been shot in the head but the body.  Because don't they still need chop the animals head off to be sent out to a lab to test for rabies.


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## fortsmithman (Oct 19, 2009)

reaper said:


> If they would not shoot it, Then I would have broke it's neck. Quick painless death.



The dog was a pitbull.  If you are brave enough to do that without getting mauled yourself for trying then I salute you.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Oct 19, 2009)

fortsmithman said:


> If that happened in my town the dog would have been shot by a 12 gauge shotgun.  It would not have been shot in the head but the body.  Because don't they still need chop the animals head off to be sent out to a lab to test for rabies.



Deer in my area that are HBC and are still alive get a Deputy dispatched out to put the animal down with a 12 gauge to the head.  A .45 tends not to do the job very well according the the deputies.  As far as needing the preserve the head...

Laws on this tend to be very inconsistant.  Depends on the Animal Control Agency in the area.  Even with a valid rabies vaccine and lisence, some areas would still require the post mortum testing.  In my area, any reported dog bite is met with:  5-15 days home quarentine with current vaccination (inconsistant depending on who the Officer is) or 30 to 180 day hospital/home quarentine for a dog with out a current vax (again, numbers are inconsistant depending on the Officer and interpretation of the Law).  True Rabies Testing can only be done post mortum and requires the entier head be shipped off (fun stuff, let me tell you), but is based on the local laws (county laws in my area).  Even then, a shot to the head (unless the head explodes like in cool zoombie movies) shouldn't hinder the testing...



fortsmithman said:


> The dog was a pitbull.  If you are brave enough to do that without getting mauled yourself for trying then I salute you.



Naw... Reapers got a sickle...  One strike and... there goes the head... and three of the victims fingers...  :unsure:  Reapers is also a bad shot...


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## Meursault (Oct 19, 2009)

reaper said:


> If they would not shoot it, Then I would have broke it's neck. Quick painless death.



That doesn't work so well on anything larger than a squirrel, let alone a notoriously tough dog breed with very little neck. I don't know, though, you might be absurdly jacked, but I'm betting it would be tough.


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## Melclin (Oct 19, 2009)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> In the subject or in the LEOs?  ^_^
> ...
> PD was there.  If you are not needed medically to off the dog, then why would you be trying to find “something” to kill the dog?  The point of having EMS there was to use drugs to kill the thing; otherwise, it was a LEO/Animal Control Issue.  Scene Safety?  I was thinking the same thing, especially when it comes to trying to administer drugs…  LOL… oh the stories…   ^_^



Yeah our cops only like to shoot mentally ill people. It must be rule they have or something. 



Aidey said:


> oh, and where was animal control in all of this?



Right, so I spoke to a MICA paramedic today who apparently knows Rob Voss who was the medic in question. 

As I understand it, when they arrived the jacks were actually wrestling with the dog trying to pull it off the guys arm. They said they'd called whatever our equivalent of animal control is to kill the thing, because they didn't want to shoot it while it was attached to the guys arm. 

So Rob apparently has said well we can probably help you out there (seeing as though the RSPCA or whoever are probably going to take forever), considering a couple of coppers are mid struggle, with a guys arm caught in a hairy vice, this seems pretty reasonable. 

The guy I talked to was a little unsure on the drugs used exactly. He reckoned it was all the midazolam they had + the sux and panc. This is all like third hand information though. I'll keep an ear open at uni, see what else pops up.


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## High Speed Chaser (Oct 19, 2009)

Was going to post this, I was a little late


Melclin said:


> Yeah our cops only like to shoot mentally ill people. It must be rule they have or something.
> 
> Right, so I spoke to a MICA paramedic today who apparently knows Rob Voss who was the medic in question.
> 
> ...



I heard it was midazolam, from another paramedic. I also read something saying that the drug used, is only carried by MICA Paramedics and is used to cause paralysis or to put a patient in a coma after major trauma however you know the media doesn't get everything right. So Melclin, can you confirm that midazolam is only used by MICA?

Also read that the paramedics wanted the dog off quickly so they could treat the guy. 

Police did consider using weapons but didn't want to risk hurting any one including bystanders, themselves or the patient. 

Just on another note, the dog *apparently* attacked a girl and her cat killing the cat and leaving the lucky girl with only a cut on her finger.


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## mycrofft (Oct 19, 2009)

*Lidocaine, cardiac needle, to the hilt through the auditory meatus.*

I'll check Youtube. You can bet it would distract it, though.

Twenty minutes and LE was already rassling? Very indecisive.


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## reaper (Oct 19, 2009)

MrConspiracy said:


> That doesn't work so well on anything larger than a squirrel, let alone a notoriously tough dog breed with very little neck. I don't know, though, you might be absurdly jacked, but I'm betting it would be tough.



Have any of you ever owned a Pit? Yes, they are powerfull dogs, but very easy to get under control. Yes, you can snap ones neck easily. there is a way to do it.

I have dealt with many dog attacks in progress. You do what you find will work best.


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## Melclin (Oct 19, 2009)

High Speed Chaser said:


> I heard it was midazolam, from another paramedic. I also read something saying that the drug used, is only carried by MICA Paramedics and is used to cause paralysis or to put a patient in a coma after major trauma however you know the media doesn't get everything right. So Melclin, can you confirm that midazolam is only used by MICA?



Midazolam is used by all paramedics; MICA and ALS. Suxamethonium and Pancuronium are the only two drugs that could have been involved that are only carried by MICA.

Sux is part of the RSI drug set, along with Midaz, Fentanyl, Morphine and Pancuronium. Which I suppose is what the media means when they say "Paramedics had to paralyse the victim and put a breathing tube down their throat".


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## nomofica (Oct 20, 2009)

reaper said:


> Have any of you ever owned a Pit? Yes, they are powerfull dogs, but very easy to get under control. Yes, you can snap ones neck easily. there is a way to do it.
> 
> I have dealt with many dog attacks in progress. You do what you find will work best.




I will agree with Reaper here. Back in high school, a buddy of mine was attacked by his neighbour's Pit (he was taking care of it while the owners were away on vacation). He entered the neighbour's home (legally) and was attacked by the dog. It was weird, because he had been taking care of the dog for about a week at that point without any problems.... Anyways, he was quick enough to put his arm out in front of his neck, allowing his neck to be unscathed. After a bit of struggling he was able to get a hold of the dog and break it's neck. Done deal there, doggy was out like a busted light.

Now, I will admit my friend is one of those naturally-stronger individuals but it just goes to show that the dog's neck can easily be broken if you find the "sweet spot".

Just sayin'.^_^


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## mycrofft (Oct 20, 2009)

*And the dog doesn't rip your brachial artery.*

I know lots of nice pitbulls, but every dog gets ornery once in a while. I think I posted a erply about this in a post last year.


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## Jinx (Oct 20, 2009)

> "Paramedics had to paralyse the *victim* and put a breathing tube down their throat".



Is this an actual quote? lol. Disturbing if the media is calling our patients "victims" to say the least! :lol:


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## HotelCo (Oct 20, 2009)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> PD was there.  If you are not needed medically to off the dog, then why would you be trying to find “something” to kill the dog?  The point of having EMS there was to use drugs to kill the thing; otherwise, it was a LEO/Animal Control Issue.  Scene Safety?  I was thinking the same thing, especially when it comes to trying to administer drugs…  LOL… oh the stories…   ^_^



If PD wasn't there and I (for some strange reason) decided to try and remove the dog, then I'd find something.

Last time I checked my protocols didn't include administering meds to a dog, and I wouldn't do it even if cleared by med control.


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## Cory (Oct 20, 2009)

I thought this is why the SPCA and other animal control companies have emergency-response teams now...


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## Jinx (Oct 20, 2009)

The article says the police were waiting for the RSPCA, which is Australia's version of your animal control. However, the dog was locked on to the patients arm and the patient couldn't be properly treated until the dog was taken care of.


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## Cory (Oct 20, 2009)

Jinx said:


> The article says the police were waiting for the RSPCA, which is Australia's version of your animal control. However, the dog was locked on to the patients arm and the patient couldn't be properly treated until the dog was taken care of.



So paramedics aren't supposed to approach a scene if they think someone will endanger them, but they will :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: angry pit-bulls with multiple needles (yes, I know what a lock jaw is)

Doesn't seem to add up to me...


[ok, well be assured I said nothing innapropriate...well not in this form at least]


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## emtfarva (Oct 20, 2009)

by shooting the animal in the head, don't you run the risk of the jaw locking shut, or bitting down even harder? If you used electricity to kill it, you would probably hurt the Pt even more. I would say break the animals neck if you could, or shoot it in the heart. I don't think I would give the dog drugs. And even if I did, MA doesn't carry anything strong enough.


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## mycrofft (Oct 20, 2009)

*I call for the lock.*

We're comparing techniques for killing Fido, or Kujo.

Just scritch by the hip and he'll fall over when the leg starts uncontrollably jerking.





Once you have done this to the pt, the dog will be easier to handle.


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## Meursault (Oct 21, 2009)

nomofica said:


> Now, I will admit my friend is one of those naturally-stronger individuals but it just goes to show that the dog's neck can easily be broken if you find the "sweet spot".
> 
> Just sayin'.^_^



Well, if someone's  going to call me on posting without the relevant experience, I suppose this is a good place for it to happen. I'll keep that in mind, though I'm one of those unnaturally-weaker individuals.


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## Aidey (Oct 21, 2009)

mycrofft said:


> We're comparing techniques for killing Fido, or Kujo.
> 
> Just scritch by the hip and he'll fall over when the leg starts uncontrollably jerking.
> 
> ...



*snort*

I know I said before what I would use, but if this really happened to me, I would call for animal control to respond pronto. They have tranquilizers for when they have to catch animals and such.


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## Melclin (Oct 21, 2009)

Jinx said:


> Is this an actual quote? lol. Disturbing if the media is calling our patients "victims" to say the least! :lol:



Nah its not. 

I meant victim of accident,hanging, psychostimulant OD, etc...


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## High Speed Chaser (Oct 21, 2009)

Cory said:


> So paramedics aren't supposed to approach a scene if they think someone will endanger them, but they will :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: angry pit-bulls with multiple needles (yes, I know what a lock jaw is)
> 
> Doesn't seem to add up to me...
> 
> ...



Police were on scene and had the dog restrained while it was still locked onto the arm of the patient/casualty/victim. 

RSPCA is not the quickest organisation around here and they could of been waiting for a long time, up to an hour if not more. Considering the dog would have been put down anyway, and they probably wanted to asses the guy and get him to hospital quickly, I think they did the right thing. I mean lets face it would you want a pit bull attached to your arm for a short or longer amount of time?


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