# Ambulance Crew Blasted For Staging at a Shooting



## 46Young (Sep 22, 2010)

http://statter911.com/2010/09/22/mi...-for-cops-says-you-have-got-to-take-the-risk/

A Missisippi politicician from Jackson blasts an AMR ambulance crew for staging at a shooting rather than rushing in. I'm at a loss for words.


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## 46Young (Sep 22, 2010)

From the article on statter911: 

Excerpts from story by WLBT-TV:

Jackson (MS) city councilman Kenneth Stokes thinks the city needs to change ambulance companies or go into the ambulance business.

Stokes says the victim, 25- year-old Lee Joseph Martin, had to wait 23 minutes for help because police had not secured the shooting scene. He held a news conference at the apartment complex.

“You have got to take the risk. You can’t let citizens die. Because if you are wounded, you say I’m not safe. Now if you can’t assume the risk then give it to the person who can assume the risk,” said Stokes.

AMR spokesman Jim Pollard said it is national policy that ambulances do not go into shooting scenes until they are sure the scene is secure and that is to protect emergency personnel.

Pollard says he has studied the times and found they got the call at 10:15:04, were on scene at 10:22:24, and had patient contact at 10:22:29 or seven minutes twenty-five seconds after getting the call.


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## b2dragun (Sep 22, 2010)

I think he should go to the first day of Basic class...Is the scene safe?


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## medicRob (Sep 22, 2010)

46Young said:


> http://statter911.com/2010/09/22/mi...-for-cops-says-you-have-got-to-take-the-risk/
> 
> A Missisippi politicician from Jackson blasts an AMR ambulance crew for staging at a shooting rather than rushing in. I'm at a loss for words.



Maybe he needs to take a look at the police force that was suppose to be securing the scene. This politician is an idiot plain and simple. This isn't "Trauma", we don't put our lives at risk by blatantly disregarding everything we have been taught about scene safety just so we can look like "Heroes". People who play "Hero" end up dead. Dead EMT's help no one.

I sent this individual the following email:

"Stokes, 

You are an idiot. I am a Paramedic in the state of TN as well as a critical care RN and your criticism of AMR made you look like a fool and made your town look like a bunch of uneducated rednecks on a national level. 

From the first day of EMT basic school we are taught, "Scene Safety". A dead EMT helps no one. I don't care if a shooting victim is laying out in the middle of the road bleeding to death, if an officer does not tell us the scene is safe, YOU DO NOT GO IN. 

Answer me this, what would've happened if the EMT's were to go in on that scene and one ended up shot? Who does he help? He just becomes another liability on the scene and is one more person the police have to work to get to safety and get treated. 

You must be wondering why I didn't start this message with, "The honorable Stokes", the answer is because I think you are an idiot. There is nothing honorable about an individual who can place blame on an ambulance service for doing what they were trained to do. It is the Police force that you need to be taking a look at and their delayed response time for whatever reason. 

Do you think the DOT and the state board of EMS is going to start telling EMT's to disregard scene safety because it increases times to the patient? In the end if you are the paramedic and you are laying on the ground shot and dead, how the hell is this going to increase time to treatment? Perhaps it is time for the city to look into replacing you and your incompetence as opposed to replacing AMR. 

Think again, Mr. Stokes.

Regards,

Robert F, NREMT-P AAS, RN BSN CCRN"


Here is Mr. Stoke's contact information on the city's website if you would like to do the same.

Mailing Address:

Post Office Box 17
219 South President Street
Jackson, Mississippi 39205-0017

Telephone: (601) 960-1090
FAX: (601) 960-1032


email:  kstokes@city.jackson.ms.us

from: 
http://www.city.jackson.ms.us/government/ward3


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## JPINFV (Sep 22, 2010)

Unless the crew is stupid and posted within line of sight of the scene, nope... sorry. Stage until the police clear the crew in.


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## MrBrown (Sep 22, 2010)

I'm gonna stay put until these guys turn up


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## medic417 (Sep 22, 2010)

Did you read the comments to the article?  Some of those people make us look very unprofessional.  They are hurting more than helping.  And if carol posts here make sure you fix spell check.


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## jjesusfreak01 (Sep 22, 2010)

If a person is bleeding out and the police have yet to secure the scene, they can feel free to carry the person out to me or even drive them to me. I'll even let them have the stretcher if they want it. Any exceptions to this rule are by my prerogative. If its a bleeding cop that wanders away from the dangerous part of the scene I might feel so inclined to put myself at a slight risk, but thats my choice, and I might get fired for it (probably not for PR reasons). 

EMS personnel sign up with a calculated level of risk in mind. We agree to risk exposure to pathogens and disorderly (even violent) patients, while the police agree to risk their lives and go up against violence and go into unsafe scenes. This is their job, not ours. We thank them for what they do, but until an EMT and a LEO are the same thing, we don't secure scenes.


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## abckidsmom (Sep 22, 2010)

We have an idiot politician as well.  I wish that there was a way to take away the public speaking priveleges of idiots.


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## LonghornMedic (Sep 22, 2010)

Amazing that an elected official would make such a reckless, knee jerk comment. Reminds of the whole Obama-Cambridge Police "acted stupidly" comment. Good luck to the councilman in finding another ambulance company that doesn't stage on shooting calls.


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## DrParasite (Sep 23, 2010)

This guy isn't stupid; he's ignorant to reality.  His perception is that EMS should run in, save the day, and they can always save guys in cardiac arrest.  We all know that reality is different.

it is no different than the hostage situation in Ct where two people died because the cops didn't enter the house, they secured the perimeter and waited for the hostage team, and are now being criticized by the ignorant for not doing anything for 30 minutes.

It's also no different than the idiot mayor of NYC blasting the two dispatchers who allegedly didn't do anything to help the dying asthma patient at the coffee shop.  Not that he wasn't right in what he said, but rather to publicly castigate them before any investigation confirmed their allegations was a poor action by a public official.

"“You have got to take the risk. You can’t let citizens die. Because if you are wounded, you say I’m not safe. Now if you can’t assume the risk then give it to the person who can assume the risk,” said Stokes."   The police assume that risk, not EMS.  Now I won't say there are no EMS agencies that might scoop and run before PD get there, but if the shooter decides to pick off the EMTs, then what?  PD can shoot back, has tactical training, and kevlar vests.  They assume the risk.  

Very few ambulance companies and EMT will assume the risk of entering an unsafe scene, despite what this councilman wants.  But when your perception of EMS is based on TRAUMA and EMERGENCY!!! what do you expect?


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## EMS49393 (Sep 23, 2010)

He can take the EMT class and run into that scene himself because I'll be d***ed, I'm not going to.   Yet another reason for me to hate politicians and politics.


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## LucidResq (Sep 23, 2010)

Email entitled EMS Professionals are citizens too. 



> Mr. Stokes,
> 
> I wonder if you would still stand by your recent comments that paramedics and EMTs "have got to take that risk," and "can't let citizens die," if faced with the families of the following EMS workers who were murdered while performing care on scenes such as the one you question. Yes, EMS is an inherently dangerous job, but it seems you do not value EMTs if you think they should routinely put themselves in the line of fire when they are NOT armed like police officers and NOT trained like police officers.
> 
> ...


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## TransportJockey (Sep 23, 2010)

LucidResq said:


> Email entitled EMS Professionals are citizens too.



One of the best worded emails I've seen on this topic. Good one!


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## firetender (Sep 23, 2010)

*How shall we present ourselves?*



medicRob said:


> I sent this individual the following email:
> 
> "Stokes,
> 
> You are an idiot. I am a Paramedic in the state of TN...



Rob, I appreciate your fervor, but any reasonable person would toss your bile before you even got to embarrassing your profession AND State!

You're working on the assumption that people know what EMS is and does. It's not true. To most, we are essentially street-sweepers that remove human debris from the footpaths so regular citizens don't have to step over others' pain!

Someone in EMS in this guy's area, didn't take the time to educate him, or such education was not available to the general public. This is a lesson in what we *all *need to do: *Make a pre-emptive strike! 
*
If you haven't already, make sure your local Politicos know what you do. Get a Reporter on your side. Then, when people like Stokes do stuff like that, if you say anything, you write a letter like this...



> Mr. Stokes,
> 
> I wonder if you would still stand by your recent comments that  paramedics and EMTs "have got to take that risk," and "can't let  citizens die," if faced with the families of the following EMS workers  who were murdered while performing care on scenes such as the one you  question. Yes, EMS is an inherently dangerous job, but it seems you do  not value EMTs if you think they should routinely put themselves in the  line of fire when they are NOT armed like police officers and NOT  trained like police officers.



And even this letter states he needs to educate himself. You can't count on that being an area of his interest. This writer, as well, has to figure out who in the community needs to know what about EMS and educate them, BEFORE a medic gets slammed for protecting his/her life.

*Tactics, Robbie, it's your tactics that leave a bit to be desired! *

A letter to Mr. Stokes gets in the papers, therefore more mileage, therefore has more effect. One like yours may weasel its way to his eye, but will get no further. If influence is what you were seeking, you shot yourself in the foot.

You're acting as if respect is a given in this profession. It's not, it's something continually earned and since we're already behind when it comes to getting it, letters like yours won't help.

This is not meant personally as much as a great opportunity to compare and contrast styles of communication seeking to bring change. In reality, one response served to educate, the other, to deliver a few punches, but both underscore our responsibility to educate our communities on an ongoing basis. You never know when you'll need them to cover your back!.


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## medicRob (Sep 23, 2010)

firetender said:


> Rob, I appreciate your fervor, but any reasonable person would toss your bile before you even got to embarrassing your profession AND State!
> 
> You're working on the assumption that people know what EMS is and does. It's not true. To most, we are essentially street-sweepers that remove human debris from the footpaths so regular citizens don't have to step over others' pain!
> 
> ...



Honestly, the email was more about me venting my anger than anything. I never expected him to read it in the first place. I assume that after all the news coverage, his inbox is full anyways. It just made me feel better to know
that I said something about it.


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## Shishkabob (Sep 23, 2010)

I'm at an utter loss for words.



There's a reason why Emil Mătăsăreanu was allowed to die back in the North Hollywood shootout... and why the 'charges' were eventually dropped and it was deemed a 'mistrial'.  You CANNOT demand others to put their life on the line for you.  Ever.  It's our decision.

Infact, even police are not required to put themselves in harms way.



But alas, Jackson really isn't known for their educational standards...


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## 589661 (Sep 23, 2010)

*BSI Scene Safety?*

Day one in class if we walked into the classroom without saying BSI and Scene Safety we were "shot" and lost 10 points for the day. The scene was obviously not safe and guess who is number one in that case. THE EMT!!!!!!!!!
This is unacceptable to wait 7 and a half minutes to make sure that no other lifes are taken. Are you kidding me news reporter. You tell me how to do my job when you can get the weather right. Whats next you gonna tell the firefighters that they took too long to extinguish a fire? Are you going to tell the police that their responce to your call because your neighbors are having a party that is clearly legal and is bothering no one. WHATS NEXT!!!!!!


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## LucidResq (Sep 24, 2010)

firetender said:


> And even this letter states he needs to educate himself. You can't count on that being an area of his interest. This writer, as well, has to figure out who in the community needs to know what about EMS and educate them, BEFORE a medic gets slammed for protecting his/her life.



I stand by it. Yes, if he is going to speak from a government position and disparage the company and its employees, he should educate himself before speaking. There is nothing wrong with expecting a person speaking from a position of power to learn about how their jurisdiction operates a little bit and watching what they say BEFORE they speak. It's his job, actually.


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## LucidResq (Sep 24, 2010)

I simply do not have the time or resources to hunt down every halfwit city council member or politician in my area and run through our protocols with them and then hold a Q&A session with them to ensure there are no misunderstandings about what we will and won't do. He made his knee-jerk reaction statements without doing his homework, therefore he deserves all the backlash he's getting. And again, he's a city council member, his job is to serve the city which usually involves knowing quite a bit about. He's not just Joe-Shmoe who a) has no obligation to know such things and b) is not speaking from a position of power.


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## LucidResq (Sep 24, 2010)

Oh, and I appreciate the positive feedback too Fire. I'm all for educating the public and public officials. However, I can't stand when these politicians try to tell people doing the dirty work out in the field how to do their job and lambast them from the safety and comfort of their corner office desks, when they don't even bother to actually learn about what they're talking about.


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## adamjh3 (Sep 24, 2010)

Disgusting. Perhaps he should be stripped of office and given the job of breaking the news to families that their loved one isn't getting off duty - ever - because they "had to take a risk." Maybe then this songbird's tune will change.

Maybe being the bearer of that news is too great an honor for him to hold.


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## clibb (Sep 24, 2010)

medicRob, 

You are my hero. I love that freaking email! 

I'm going work on my own email to send! 

/C



medicRob said:


> Maybe he needs to take a look at the police force that was suppose to be securing the scene. This politician is an idiot plain and simple. This isn't "Trauma", we don't put our lives at risk by blatantly disregarding everything we have been taught about scene safety just so we can look like "Heroes". People who play "Hero" end up dead. Dead EMT's help no one.
> 
> I sent this individual the following email:
> 
> ...


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## SignorSchnitzel (Sep 24, 2010)

wow this politician is truly an idiot....one of the first things we are taught is not to gun in an unsafe seen, and if I see some dude laying out in the middle bleeding, with no police their to secure the scene, hell no, I'm not running in there.


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## jgmedic (Sep 24, 2010)

update : http://www.jems.com/video/news/councilman-responds-safety-com


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## jjesusfreak01 (Sep 24, 2010)

I challenge the councilman to find an emergency ambulance service that will do what he proposes. I'm fairly certain the second any service agreed to go into unsecured scenes, their insurance would shoot through the roof.


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## adamjh3 (Sep 25, 2010)

At first I had a glimmer of hope that it may be a knee-jerk reaction. But now that he openly states that he stands by his earlier statements... I'm at a loss for words, nothing can describe how disgusted I am.


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## medicRob (Sep 25, 2010)

adamjh3 said:


> At first I had a glimmer of hope that it may be a knee-jerk reaction. But now that he openly states that he stands by his earlier statements... I'm at a loss for words, nothing can describe how disgusted I am.



What do you expect from someone who doesn't even have a proper grasp on the English language?


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## CAOX3 (Sep 25, 2010)

Post removed,

Because this nonsense doesnt even warrant a response.


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## firetender (Sep 25, 2010)

Out of the chute, I give benefit of the doubt; that's good politics. Fine, we should have, in every jurisdiction, somebody doing PR and education for EMS specifically; our bad.

But as someone holding the public trust, HE had the responsibility to learn what he was talking about before he opened his yap again and made a rectal fissure out of himself! Now, he deserves what he gets. 

FIRE AWAY medicRob!


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## LonghornMedic (Sep 25, 2010)

medicRob said:


> What do you expect from someone who doesn't even have a proper grasp on the English language?



I was thinking the exact same thing. And where is the local police chief in this discussion? I would think he or she would be voicing their opinion on EMS rushing into unsecured scenes. Maybe then this bonehead councilman would change his uneducated opinion(doubt it).


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## medicRob (Sep 25, 2010)

I think we should flood his inbox with messages of support for AMR and call him out on his ignorance. I will be making a personal call in to his office to voice my concerns Monday over his blatant ignorance. We should work together as a community of EMS professionals to educate the public on "Scene Safety" and what that means for the EMS Provider, and we should call upon the EMS community to email this individual calling him out on his ignorance.


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## Shishkabob (Sep 25, 2010)

medicRob said:


> I think we should flood his inbox with messages of support for AMR



Woah, hey, let's not do anything irrational now!  


(Hopes his bosses don't see this post)


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## TransportJockey (Sep 25, 2010)

Update from the county agency that controls the contract:
http://www.jems.com/video/news/safety-and-contract-first-miss


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## LucidResq (Sep 25, 2010)

Good to see most of the those who agree with Stokes are just members of the general public and not the actual decision makers.


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## DrParasite (Sep 25, 2010)

jtpaintball70 said:


> Update from the county agency that controls the contract:
> http://www.jems.com/video/news/safety-and-contract-first-miss


Question for someone who may know: Councilman Stokes says that AMR was needed to help the engine who was on scene.  

Does anyone know if Jackson FD had an engine on scene, who was treating the patient, while the ambulance was staged a block away?  should this make a difference in the response?


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## LucidResq (Sep 25, 2010)

I haven't heard him say anything about helping an engine on scene. I think you might have misheard him... he did said say something about helping the INJURED and it does kind of sound like he said engine, but he definitely said "the injured."

Just looking at Jackson Fire's website, I see that they do not have any ambulances and it sounds like they also do not have ALS capabilities. No mention of TEMS either, so I'm guessing they stage with AMR at scenes like this to provide some extra EMT hands.... and maybe hose down the blood afterwards.


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## 46Young (Sep 26, 2010)

LucidResq said:


> Good to see most of the those who agree with Stokes are just members of the general public and not the actual decision makers.



One in particular got to me. I couldn't help myself, and responed to him below Career FFM @ DB:

http://www.jems.com/video/news/councilman-responds-safety-com


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## bstone (Sep 26, 2010)

> The incident has caused outrage nationwide where EMS providers have sounded off in overwhelming support of the crew's actions, flooding message boards and Facebook pages discussing the topic, including JEMS and posts on JEMS.com. They've also filled local media comment boards and the local council's phone lines and e-mail addresses with the same.



It's working.


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## helicub81 (Oct 3, 2010)

BSI scene is safe


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## RJ75 (Oct 4, 2010)

So, this councilman says because EMTs are there to help people they should rush into an unsafe scene, consequences be damned, to help people. We all know how well that would go over.

But using his own logic has the councilman ever thought that as an elected representative of his city, ultimately it's his responsibility to ensure the safety of his constituents? So, I'd expect him to be leading the charge into an unsafe scene, and at the same time I'd expect him to be able to use a BVM to assist the patient with ventilations, take a blood pressure, deal with the hemorrhage, put out a fire, round up stray dogs, and take down the guy with the gun.

EMTs aren't police officers for the most part, police officers aren't fire crews, and fire crews aren't city councilmen. I think the "good" councilman has watched too many movies where combat medics rush onto a battlefield as portrayed by Hollywood. He should pull his head out and join the rest of us in the real world.

RJ


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## eynonqrs (Oct 4, 2010)

*All I can say is - WT??????*

I have to agree that the council member should have looked at the facts before opening his mouth. He is barking about 20 + mins ? How about the poor crews in rural areas or areas that are not covered by city or township police, and have to wait maybe over an hour for the state police or covering town police to respond ? The reality is it is getting to be more and more dangerous for us. Until we are allowed to carry weapons, have an amoured ambulance, etc.. I don't see us going to in unsafe scenes anytime soon. If the council member is that concerned, then he should move to get an ambulance that has an emt/medic that are also trained as police officers. Not only could they transport pt's, but can double as a patty wagon. Just saying.


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## emt seeking first job (Oct 14, 2010)

The ambulance service should publicize the written portion of their SOP and also from every standard text about scene safety.

This is a politician trying to muck up the court of public opinion.

The court of public opinion is usually wrong....like when the private security guards did not intervene in the railway station during an assault...


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## FrostbiteMedic (Oct 20, 2010)

Let councilman Stokes come to my neck of the woods for a little while. I will give him the honor or responding out to our scenes here in the sticks without LE support. One of two things would happen: A- His opinion would quickly change or B-He would get shot by the locals. Either way, his opinion would change lol....


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## iftmedic (Oct 29, 2010)

MedicRob, awesome email, I think Stokes is thinking of a Tactical medic, or he should consider that for his Police force. Geat email though.


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