# $25 per hour EMT-B Pay?



## Dandy (Jul 17, 2010)

Any of you forum readers able to tell me how much the ambulance companies pay in Northern California like in the Bay area or any of the surrounding areas? I here the rate is maybe $20 $25 per hour for an EMT-B because of the cost of living. Do you know any examples of who is paying how much? Muchas gracias.


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## MDA (Jul 17, 2010)

Dandy said:


> Any of you forum readers able to tell me how much the ambulance companies pay in Northern California like in the Bay area or any of the surrounding areas? I here the rate is maybe $20 $25 per hour for an EMT-B because of the cost of living. Do you know any examples of who is paying how much? Muchas gracias.



Absolutely false.
I know most companies in that area, and none are over $10 an hour.
Most start around $9.00 with "call bonuses" that can equal $11ish an hour if you're lucky.

Even in Los Angeles, the HIGHEST pay I've seen for an EMT-B is like $12-$13 and that's rare.


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## Dandy (Jul 17, 2010)

*Greedy....$11ish if I'm lucky?*

And $12-13 is rare? WTX?  $11ish is less than In-N-Out burger flippers make! Why do you think ambulance companies can take advantage of us this way?


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## medic417 (Jul 17, 2010)

Dandy said:


> And $12-13 is rare? WTX?  $11ish is less than In-N-Out burger flippers make! Why do you think ambulance companies can take advantage of us this way?



Lack of education required and way to many people willing to do the emt work for free or on the cheap.  The rule of supply and demand.


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## Dandy (Jul 17, 2010)

*Is this right?*

Is this right if I can get a 24 hour shift if we figure $10/hour?  8 hours at regular pay + 4 hours  at 1.5x pay + balance at double pay so = $80 + $60 + $240= $380 for a 24 hour shift?


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## JPINFV (Jul 17, 2010)

Dandy said:


> And $12-13 is rare? WTX?  $11ish is less than In-N-Out burger flippers make! Why do you think ambulance companies can take advantage of us this way?



Well... In-N-Out gets what they pay for (good workers, I've never had bad service at an In-N-Out) and apparently both EMS and In-N-Out employers are happy with the quality of employee that they are attracting on a normal basis.


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## LucidResq (Jul 17, 2010)

I think I'm going to start telling folks interested in becoming an EMT that EMTs make $3 an hour so that they're not as disappointed when they finish school and realize that they make minimum wage or close to it.


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## Dandy (Jul 17, 2010)

*Dropped meat!*

At least when In-N-Out drops the meat they don't get fired and sued! Is ther a union we can join to help us? The ambo companies are probably making good money. Lets get some!


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## medic417 (Jul 17, 2010)

Dandy said:


> Is this right if I can get a 24 hour shift if we figure $10/hour?  8 hours at regular pay + 4 hours  at 1.5x pay + balance at double pay so = $80 + $60 + $240= $380 for a 24 hour shift?



No most EMS is exempt from standard overtime rules.  So best to expect straight $8 entire shift and do not be shocked if asked to work free standby.


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## Dandy (Jul 17, 2010)

*No Overtime? But.....this says..*

FYI from the San Francisco Paramedic website;
http://www.sfparamedics.org/pages/ems/emt-press.php

In March 2003, the Department of Labor (DOL) published a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking in the Federal Register to revise and update the exemptions from overtime under the FLSA for executive, administrative and professional employees, also known as "white collar" exemptions. Along with other public safety and healthcare workers, many EMS workers became alarmed that such exemptions would contribute to confusion over their status as "blue" or "white" collar workers and their ability to earn overtime compensation.

During the public comment period, NAEMT and other public safety worker organizations worked to seek clarification of the Department's intent with respect to the overtime eligibility of public safety employees-an issue that was not explicitly addressed in the proposed rule. This involved NAEMT mounting an aggressive letter writing, phone call and
legislative meeting schedule to make sure that the NAEMT message was heard and comprehended by those in Washington who would rule on this. "While it's unclear if the DOL was specifically trying to impede the ability of public safety workers to earn overtime, we wanted to be sure that there was no chance for confusion about EMS workers fitting into the 'white collar' exemptions," said Maniscalco. "We wanted to ensure that specific language stated EMTs and Paramedics were protected."

The final regulations make several important changes for public safety employees. For the first time ever, the regulations clarify that neither the regulations contained in 29 CFR nor the Section 13(a)(1) exemptions apply to police officers, firefighters, EMTs and other
first responders who perform public safety work. The regulations go on to clarify why these employees, regardless of their rank or pay level, cannot be classified as executive, administrative or professional employees, and thus be exempted from receiving overtime pay. In addition, the Department acknowledges that the right to overtime compensation
may be extended to some public safety employees who are currently classified
as exempt because of changes to the regulations.


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## JPINFV (Jul 17, 2010)

So NAEMT is fighting to say that we are not professionals, but just blue collar technicians?


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## JPINFV (Jul 17, 2010)

Dandy said:


> Is ther a union we can join to help us?



Sorry, I don't need a union to wipe my bum for me...


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## medic417 (Jul 17, 2010)

Dandy said:


> The final regulations make several important changes for public safety employees. For the first time ever, the regulations clarify that neither the regulations contained in 29 CFR nor the Section 13(a)(1) exemptions apply to police officers, firefighters, EMTs and other
> first responders who perform public safety work. The regulations go on to clarify why these employees, regardless of their rank or pay level, cannot be classified as executive, administrative or professional employees, and thus be exempted from receiving overtime pay. In addition, the Department acknowledges that the right to overtime compensation
> may be extended to some public safety employees who are currently classified
> as exempt because of changes to the regulations.



You should continue the research.  OT is not paid after 8 in most cases.  Also many EMS qualify to avoid overtime until you have worked 53 hours per week, 106 per 2 weeks, etc, based on pay period used.  Some states lower that amount but you can bet your service will do everything in their power to avoid you getting a ton of OT.


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## usalsfyre (Jul 17, 2010)

medic417 said:


> No most EMS is exempt from standard overtime rules.  So best to expect straight $8 entire shift and do not be shocked if asked to work free standby.



Fire departments are exempt from the 40 hour requirement (they have a 53 hour work week), if their employees are on 24 hour shifts and asigned to fire supression duties, not EMS. 

There is also a way for EMS companies to skip out on paying you for 8 hours at night, but I'm not ultra familiar with this, I've generally steered clear of those companies. 

If your OT doesn't fall into one of these to categories, and isn't being paid, it's illegal. I'd contact a labor attorney and/or the local workforce commission.



medic417 said:


> You should continue the research. OT is not paid after 8 in most cases. Also many EMS qualify to avoid overtime until you have worked 53 hours per week, 106 per 2 weeks, etc, based on pay period used. Some states lower that amount but you can bet your service will do everything in their power to avoid you getting a ton of OT.



Again, this only applies to fire supression personel. Even govenment third service EMS has to pay OT at 40hrs a week. OT is not paid after 8 hrs a day, it hits after 40hrs a week or 80 a payperiod



> At least when In-N-Out drops the meat they don't get fired and sued! Is ther a union we can join to help us? The ambo companies are probably making good money. Lets get some!



Good luck making it far with an attitude like that. EMS companies are also notorious union busters.


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## Veneficus (Jul 17, 2010)

Dandy said:


> At least when In-N-Out drops the meat they don't get fired and sued! Is ther a union we can join to help us? The ambo companies are probably making good money. Lets get some!



Could I just inquire what you think you should be paid and why?


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## Dandy (Jul 17, 2010)

*No OT/*

You seem to know what you are talking about and that they don't pay OT, but that sure isn't what that stuff said from the SFPA. Sorry if my In-N-Out gaff upset anybody, but they make $13.50 and hour and have no liability was my point. And if a union could get me $25 instead of $11sh they can wipe my bum all day long. That is the difference between a living wage and renting a room in some guys house.


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## medic417 (Jul 17, 2010)

Dandy said:


> You seem to know what you are talking about and that they don't pay OT, but that sure isn't what that stuff said from the SFPA. Sorry if my In-N-Out gaff upset anybody, but they make $13.50 and hour and have no liability was my point. And if a union could get me $25 instead of $11sh they can wipe my bum all day long. That is the difference between a living wage and renting a room in some guys house.



Union will not get you that wage but will cost you money on dues.  So you lose out all the way.


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## Dandy (Jul 17, 2010)

*How much?*

I think a wage range of $18-$25 per hour would be commensurate with the work. Look, most of the EMTs I know are squared away people without the grunge factor who are fairly intelligent and emphasize patient care. That is what the companies are built on. But it would depend on where you live cause there are cost differences and stuff.


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## Dandy (Jul 17, 2010)

*Union dues?*

You are kidding! If I make even $20 instead of $11 that is $18,000 a year more! I'll pay the union dues, they cant be that much!


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## medic417 (Jul 17, 2010)

usalsfyre said:


> Fire departments are exempt from the 40 hour requirement (they have a 53 hour work week), if their employees are on 24 hour shifts and asigned to fire supression duties, not EMS.
> 
> There is also a way for EMS companies to skip out on paying you for 8 hours at night, but I'm not ultra familiar with this, I've generally steered clear of those companies.
> 
> ...



You may want to reexamine the laws.  There is another classification as well that some EMS fall into that does not pay overtime until after about 43 hours per week.  There are numerous ways that a service can get qualified to avoid paying so much overtime.


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## Veneficus (Jul 17, 2010)

Dandy said:


> I think a wage range of $18-$25 per hour would be commensurate with the work. Look, most of the EMTs I know are squared away people without the grunge factor who are fairly intelligent and emphasize patient care. That is what the companies are built on. But it would depend on where you live cause there are cost differences and stuff.



So if I understand you...

An EMT should be paid more because of their customer service?

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but IFT companies are not built on patient care, they are built on loads hauled. 

Does anyone really care about the customer service skills of the truck driver delivering goods to market?

Really though, I think you need to see what EMS really is, not the fantastic idea of what we would like it to be or what it should be.

even in the finest systems and organizations in the world, patient care is directly influenced by the money available. Patients don't pay extra for good service. Neither do insurance companies or medicare/medicade. 

They do pay for the medical procedures rendered. What medical procedures do IFT companies really provide that affects outcome?


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## Dandy (Jul 17, 2010)

*really? 43 hours.*

There are too many factoids floating around, can anyone help us all and site some specific labor codes that let the companies escape paying ot? I mean what if it is just a rumor that we don't earn OT?


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## Dandy (Jul 17, 2010)

*Customer service*

Okay, so if you are on a big Red Rig doing a bazillion calls to facilities that have to use you because of a city contract then you can have a lousy attitude, be late and hit on the nurses. But in a bls rig going to a facility that can choose which company to use then if you are late or p.o.someone then the company looses lots of runs, right? That is very valuable, don't you think?


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## adamjh3 (Jul 17, 2010)

There are hundreds of people that are just as and more qualified than me that want my job. If I do a crappy job on a call, the company can let me go, and have my position filled that day if they so desired. So when you DO land a job, you're going to do everything you can to keep it until you get burned out or move on, because you are very, very easily replaced. 

Basics are a dime a dozen right now.

Edit to add: Overtime pay depends on the company. Some (most) will milk every single cent out of you that they can, others are a little more lenient. My company's policy is as follows:



> 10 hour shifts: 8 hours at straight time and 2 at time an a half. These shifts are generally based on a 40-hour workweek.
> 
> 12 hour shifts: 8 hours at straight time and 4 at time and a half. These shifts are generally based on a 40-hour workweek.
> 
> 24 hour (EMT) shifts: 14 hours paid out of 24, (example 8a-12 midnight) with 2 hours of non-paid for meals and 8 hours non-paid sleep. Calls/Responses between 12-midnight and 8am shall be compensated @ 1.5 overtime rate. Employees receiving less than three (3) hours of sleep will be paid for the entire 24-hour shift. Please refer to the Labor Law Rules and Regulations (transportation) regarding the exception of the hourly rule for Ambulance Companies.



I'm okay with this compensation because I like working for this company.


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## Dandy (Jul 17, 2010)

*10-4*

yeah, I guess you're right...I guess that is why nobody is hiring, cause there are so many people beating down their doors and that make us easily replaceable. It just doesn't seem fair, that's all.


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## MDA (Jul 17, 2010)

Where I work (this goes for Medics and EMTs), you get paid a base rate. Anything over 40 hours a week is considered overtime at 1.5x base rate. Double time use to be rare, but now it's pretty much extinct.

There's special laws that govern ambulance services in almost every state. Luckily we get paid 24 out of 24 hours, but per department of labor they can take out 3 hours of pay in a 24 hour shift (1 hour for each meal), and 8 hours of sleep time (that's a combined total, not all at once), then there's special circumstances with getting calls between a certain time of the night, etc. So be thankful because it could definitely be worse.

If you got into this career for the money, you're insane.

I left LE working as a Probation Officer literally making twice as much as I do now, set schedule with weekends off. However I am now happier than I have ever been since I got back into EMS and that benefits all aspects of my life.

Maybe you need to figure out what you want to do and what's important.


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## usalsfyre (Jul 17, 2010)

medic417 said:


> You may want to reexamine the laws.  There is another classification as well that some EMS fall into that does not pay overtime until after about 43 hours per week.  There are numerous ways that a service can get qualified to avoid paying so much overtime.



Off the US DOL website. http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs8.htm



> Fire protection personnel employed by a fire department include firefighters, paramedics, emergency medical technicians, rescue workers, ambulance personnel, or hazardous materials workers who are:
> 
> 1. trained in fire suppression,
> 
> ...



I don't meet any of this at my EMS job, and would wager that most don't unless they work for a fire department. 



> The FLSA requires that all covered nonexempt employees be paid overtime pay at no less than time and one-half their regular rates of pay for all hours worked in excess of 40 in a workweek.
> 
> Section 13(b)(20) of the FLSA provides an overtime exemption to law enforcement or fire protection employees of a public agency which employs less than five employees in law enforcement or fire protection activities.
> 
> Section 7(k) of the FLSA provides that employees engaged in fire protection or law enforcement may be paid overtime on a "work period" basis. A "work period" may be from 7 consecutive days to 28 consecutive days in length. For example, fire protection personnel are due overtime under such a plan after 212 hours worked during a 28-day period, while law enforcement personnel must receive overtime after 171 hours worked during a 28-day period. For work periods of at least 7 but less than 28 days, overtime pay is required when the number of hours worked exceeds the number of hours which bears the same relationship to 212 (fire) or 171 (police) as the number of days in the work period bears to 28.



Again, unless you meet the requirements above, there's no exemption for EMS only. Unless you have a legal responsibility to respond and mitigate FIRES and perform RESCUE (not something any straight EMS agency I have ever worked for mandates) you don't fall under this exception, and if your not getting paid OT, your employer is in violation of Federal law.


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## Dandy (Jul 17, 2010)

*Wow*

You know your stuff. You should be a lawyer. I think I'll show that fsla to my boss and see if he'll pay me for all the OT he owes me. After two years that's a lot of money. I hope I will still have a job next week!


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## MDA (Jul 17, 2010)

This is for CA...



> California has a special rule for "ambulance drivers and attendants" who work 24-hours shifts. If certain conditions are met, the rule permits employers to schedule ambulance drivers and attendants to work 24 hours without paying daily overtime pay. The California daily overtime rule states:
> 
> "The daily overtime provision of subsection (A) above shall not apply to ambulance drivers and attendants scheduled for 24-hour shifts of duty who have agreed in writing to exclude from daily time worked not more than three (3) meal periods of not more than one (1) hour each and a regularly scheduled uninterrupted sleeping period of not more than eight (8) hours. The employer shall provide adequate dormitory and kitchen facilities for employees on such a schedule.
> 
> ...



I did indeed sign a waiver agreeing to paid 24 out of 24 hours worked, and anything over 40 hours a week to be paid at 1.5x base pay. It evens out.


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## MDA (Jul 17, 2010)

usalsfyre said:


> Off the US DOL website. http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs8.htm
> 
> 
> 
> ...



From reading that information it does not pertain to privately owned companies. It states it specifically in speaking of *fire protection personnel employed by a fire department include firefighters, paramedics, emergency medical technicians, rescue workers, ambulance personnel, or hazardous materials workers.*

Around here very, very few Fire Depts. staff EMT's, only Medics, and the rest doesn't even apply. But here in CA we already all know Fire/Medics are paid extremely well, hence why this is the route everyone wants to go.


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## Ewok Jerky (Jul 17, 2010)

my union gets me $17+/hr as an emt-b. union dues is around $50 a month. we get paid straight time for the first 40, time and a half after that


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jul 17, 2010)

Beano is this in the bay area? Does your company hire Paramedics also?


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## MDA (Jul 17, 2010)

beano said:


> my union gets me $17+/hr as an emt-b. union dues is around $50 a month. we get paid straight time for the first 40, time and a half after that



Also, what type of company is it?

County/City Fire?
Private?
BLS/ALS/IFT?

Just curious.


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## looker (Jul 18, 2010)

JPINFV emt are easily replaceable. I currently got list of people that are ready to start tomorrow and it's growing. I am pretty sure it's the same with all other EMS company. Etm's do not have the skills that would justify for me to pay $25 an hour.


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## Ewok Jerky (Jul 18, 2010)

Shultz- not in the bay area, yes we have medics

mda- private bls als and ift


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## medic417 (Jul 18, 2010)

Only time I have seen $25/hr posted for an emt was an ad for a new company that was moving into the area.  The other companies got a little nervous about losing the better people and moved people up about a $1 an hour which gave them $13/hr.  Not sure how they thought that competed with $25/hr.  Well after some time no one saw any more action from the new company.  After some more investigating turns out some emt wanting a pay raise had placed the ad's.  I think no one in the area ever did hire him again.


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## 46Young (Jul 18, 2010)

Dandy said:


> And $12-13 is rare? WTX?  $11ish is less than In-N-Out burger flippers make! Why do you think ambulance companies can take advantage of us this way?



The difference with low skill jobs that pay the same as, or better than EMS is that they're actually doing work the entire time they're on shift. Whether it's a job at a burger joint, a Target, TGIF, Borders, or whatever, you're expected to be productive the entire time. 

With EMS, you can be posting, you can slow it down on the floor or at the drop off, and driving to the call or in between calls isn't exactly hard work. If you're not driving, you can BS on the phone, take a cat nap, read, etc. If you have downtime at the station, you can surf the net, sleep, PT, watch TV, cook and eat, etc. At my job, I typically get one or two workouts, an hour or two of studying at least, either cook dinner or have it cooked for me, and get an average of four to five hours of sleep, on average. Sometimes we get up a few times at night, sometimes we sleep all night.

Basically, these other jobs get much more productivity out of the employee.

Unless you work for a SSM agency :lol:

Edit: We like to compare ourselves to nurses, and like to think that we should be paid more or less the same. Look at how busy they are, and how hard they're working compared to EMS. We also deal with only one pt at a time, not five or ten. EMS is really a low stress job, on the whole. Especially IFT. Tedious and somewhat mentally exhausting, but low stress.


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## 46Young (Jul 18, 2010)

Having said that, I was fortunate to have worked in areas with unions. My old hospital wasn't union, but others were, along with FDNY. The hospital would consistently offer more than these union employers to attract the best people.

Regarding my current union employer, I'm making around 70k as a base. As you get into the deep south, firemedics get from around 30-40k to start. No job security or representation, either. I'll take a safe, secure job over one that can fire me at will, even if that protects some skells.


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## medic417 (Jul 18, 2010)

46Young said:


> Having said that, I was fortunate to have worked in areas with unions. My old hospital wasn't union, but others were, along with FDNY. The hospital would consistently offer more than these union employers to attract the best people.
> 
> Regarding my current union employer, I'm making around 70k as a base. As you get into the deep south, firemedics get from around 30-40k to start. No job security or representation, either. I'll take a safe, secure job over one that can fire me at will, even if that protects some skells.



Your union has you snowed.  They can still fire you.  They can lock all of you out.  Sorry unions are not as great as you believe.


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## 46Young (Jul 18, 2010)

medic417 said:


> Your union has you snowed.  They can still fire you.  They can lock all of you out.  Sorry unions are not as great as you believe.



Yeah, if I kill someone or commit sexual harrassment. But, discipline is ensured to be the same for all, as in no favoritism or double standards. They can't fire one of us for just anything. There are progressive discipline procedures to follow, as well as SOP's that specifically spell out what is and isn't punishable.


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## medic417 (Jul 18, 2010)

46Young said:


> Yeah, if I kill someone or commit sexual harrassment. But, discipline is ensured to be the same for all, as in no favoritism or double standards. They can't fire one of us for just anything. There are progressive discipline procedures to follow, as well as SOP's that specifically spell out what is and isn't punishable.



Look at all the out of work union members in the country today.  The union did not protect them.  In fact some of the union actions kept them from having jobs.


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## 46Young (Jul 18, 2010)

medic417 said:


> Look at all the out of work union members in the country today.  The union did not protect them.  In fact some of the union actions kept them from having jobs.



What some have overlooked is that quite a few fire unions have agreed to reopen contracts to help with the budget over the past several years. What some also fail to realize is that public safety unions aren't like other professions and industries in that it's unlawful to strike. Sure, an EMS local could choose to do a work slowdown, but they can't strike. If they are unwilling to give concessions, then they get what they deserve, layoffs.

As far as protection from layoffs, if there needs to be a RIF, then it's going to happen regardless. My local, through political connection with our county BOS, successfully avoided any layoffs in our dept, and preserved our salaries and benefits. My local has also succeeded in removing the sunset clause from our DROP. They're also working towards a 20 year retirement and a 5 year DROP instead of the current 3. A 3 year DROP alone is worth 3 years of free money while I'm still working. Now it's guaranteed to always be there. That alone is a huge ROI for my dues. Add a 20 year retirement and/or a five year DROP and I'll retire very comfortable and still be young enough to have another career. 

That progressive discipline I referred to was fought for and won by my local. This allows for discipline of our screwups. Our promotional process was also won by our local, thus eliminating nepotism and other forms of favoritism, as well as merit based promotion instead of quota based, like the New Haven 20.

Additionally, the NLRA act, should it pass, will require management to negotiate with labor on work issues. This is for police, fire and EMS. Arbitration is by a third party, no striking. There's also a clause that stipulates that union members cannot volunteer where other union members are employed. It already passed in the House, I'm just waiting for the Senate to pass it.

Bottom line, when I worked in Charleston I saw what it was like to work for a place where you're on your own with no organization. I'll never work for a place like that again if I can help it.


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## Chimpie (Jul 18, 2010)

*Yes, unions play a part of compensation, but let's keep the debate of whether unions are worth it or not to another thread.*


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## Medicbob (Oct 18, 2015)

New Orleans EMS pays 16/hr starting for basics. over 20 for paramedics. Hope you guys are watching Nightwatch season 2!


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## StCEMT (Oct 18, 2015)

I am going into Season 1 now.


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