# Looking for opinions on helmet decorating.



## JJR512 (Sep 29, 2010)

I have a yellow fire helmet, and am going to be decorating it essentially the same as the one in this picture:







Notice the helmet is divided into eight sections. The two front sections have nothing in them because from the front (and, to some extent, the sides), you can't see them due to the decorative/identifying shield, and you can't see them from the back, of course, so it's tradition (or maybe just laziness or cheapness) to leave them empty. Anyway, the other six sections, at the top, have American flag triangles. You can see that in the picture. I have that decal set, the six flag triangles, which has two blue triangles with white stars, and four triangles with red and white stripes.

Originally, I was just going to duplicate what was done on the helmet in the picture. Now, though, I'm thinking maybe it will look better—or if not better, at least equally as good—if I do it symmetrically. I mean if I put one blue/star triangle on each side, each in the forward-most non-empty segment. (I hope I'm explaining what I mean well enough to convey my meaning...)


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## Seaglass (Sep 29, 2010)

If you're going to be in fires, check with your department. Some only allow NFPA-compliant stickers, which the flag ones often aren't. Supposedly, it's because the stickers can burn. More realistically, it's because modifying gear beyond standards can make insurance claims a headache if you get hurt. If they have a policy like that, it's not worth it, even if most people ignore it.

Assuming that's not an issue, I like the original placement because it more closely resembles how an actual flag would look.


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## Bullets (Sep 29, 2010)

our helmets arent sectioned like that, we use the Cairns Rescue 360R
https://www.rkb.us/contentdetail.cfm?content_id=173939

I have title arcs on either side, with stars of life inside. on the rear i have small American and German flags with my fraternity letters in between. i also have double stripes running the length of the helmet front to back


My water rescue helmet looks like the Michigan football helmets with the top mostly reflective. When im in the water with rescue boats all around, i want my head to be like a lightbulb sticking out of the watter


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## JJR512 (Sep 29, 2010)

I'm not going to be in fires. I'll be EMS-only.

I may be in, or near, rescue work, and I think that's the main reason why the dept. issues helmets and other protective gear to the EMS-only people. We get step-down turnout gear, it looks like turnout gear on the outside but lacks the thermal liner on the inside.

I got the helmet today, and decided to go with the placement as seen in the photo. I do think, however, that if the set had come with four blue/star triangles as well as four striped triangles, I could have put the four blue/star segments in the four front segments, and the striped triangles in the four rear segments. So the whole front would be blue/star and the whole back would be striped. Seen from above, it would look somewhat like flag bunting, or a vertically-hanging flag, with the start field on top and the stripes below. Seen from either side, you would see an equal portion of stars and stripes. But the packages only come with two blue/star triangles, so that wasn't an option.

I'll post photos later.


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## JJR512 (Sep 30, 2010)

I also had gotten two 2" decals (also reflective), both die-cut in the shape of the St. Florian's Cross*, one filled with the American flag, the other filled with the Maryland flag.

I had originally planned to put these on the back brim (don't know if there's a technical term for that part), but I didn't realize that there was a molded-in pattern there. So I don't think the stickers will adhere well to that area. So now I guess I'll put one on each side, but I'm not sure if it matters which side I put which flag decal on. Or does it not make any difference at all. My instinct says to put the American flag on the left side (same side as the blue/star triangles), and the Maryland flag on the right side. Any advice on that?

* By "St. Florian's Cross" I am referring to the shape that most firefighters mistakenly refer to as a Maltese Cross.


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## JPINFV (Sep 30, 2010)

I wonder how many people realize that the flag on articles of clothing outside of a patch (which is limited to fire, police, military, and "patriotic organizations") is against federal law regarding showing due respect for the flag?


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## JJR512 (Sep 30, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> I wonder how many people realize that the flag on articles of clothing outside of a patch (which is limited to fire, police, military, and "patriotic organizations") is against federal law regarding showing due respect for the flag?



I hope you're not referring to _4 USC § 8 (d)_ or _4 USC § 8 (j)_, because if you are, I believe you're mistaken.


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## JPINFV (Sep 30, 2010)

Actually, both...



> The flag should never be used as* wearing apparel*, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker’s desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general.
> 
> ...
> 
> (j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.




-http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/4/usc_sec_04_00000008----000-.html

How is a helmet not a piece of apperal? Functional? Sure. However still apparel. You wouldn't take a cloth flag into a burning building, would you? As far as "costume," based on the rest of the passage it can be surmised that the term "costume" is meant in a broader term than Halloween costumes, else wise said organizations wouldn't need an exemption.


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## JJR512 (Sep 30, 2010)

First of all, do not forget the exclusion that you yourself mentioned earlier:


> (j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, *a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of* military personnel, *firemen*, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.


I am not a "fireman" but as an active member of a volunteer fire company, all the same benefits that apply to those who actually fight fires also apply to those of us who merely save lives. And what I am talking about is, in my opinion, a "flag patch".

Furthermore, in (d) which you just quoted, it says, "The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery." Please try to remember and understand that we are discussing law here, so you must be very careful about how you interpret what you read. What (d) says is that one should not take an American flag and wear it as an article of clothing (or use it as bedding or drapery). It does _not_ say that an ordinary citizen cannot wear an article of clothing that has an image of the flag on it. There is a difference; please try to comprehend it.


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## JPINFV (Sep 30, 2010)

Since when did a patch and decal become synonymous? Why not say you're putting a "flag patch" on the helmet unless it's obviously not a patch? Again, based on the wording, the intent of both phrases is to mean that outside of a patch for some organizations or a lapel pin for everyone else, the flag is not meant to be worn on, affixed (including any depiction), or used as clothing.


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## JJR512 (Sep 30, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Since when did a patch and decal become synonymous? Why not say you're putting a "flag patch" on the helmet unless it's obviously not a patch? Again, based on the wording, the intent of both phrases is to mean that outside of a patch for some organizations or a lapel pin for everyone else, the flag is not meant to be worn on, affixed (including any depiction), or used as clothing.



Let's get rid of the irrelevant part of your argument to simplify it a bit. As already gone over, nobody here is discussing wearing the flag as clothing, so you may as well drop that part of your argument. It's kaput.

Whether it's a piece of cloth sewn on, or an image with an adhesive backing, I don't think makes any difference. You see the intent as one way; I see it another way. I see these flag stickers being sold in a store that caters to fire, EMS, and police officers, but I've never seen a police officer arrest the proprietor of the store. I've seen shirts being sold at Walmart, Target, Sears, and other places with images of the flag on them (and I actually own several), but I've never heard of the Attorney General complaining about it. But if you think that what I'm talking about is illegal and you're so bent out of shape about it, then I insist that you report me; you might want to start here: http://baltimore.fbi.gov/. Good luck.

Oh, in case you couldn't tell, that was a *put up, or shut the **** up* call.


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## JPINFV (Sep 30, 2010)

JJR512 said:


> Let's get rid of the irrelevant part of your argument to simplify it a bit. As already gone over, nobody here is discussing wearing the flag as clothing, so you may as well drop that part of your argument. It's kaput.
> 
> Whether it's a piece of cloth sewn on, or an image with an adhesive backing, I don't think makes any difference. You see the intent as one way; I see it another way. I see these flag stickers being sold in a store that caters to fire, EMS, and police officers, but I've never seen a police officer arrest the proprietor of the store. I've seen shirts being sold at Walmart, Target, Sears, and other places with images of the flag on them (and I actually own several), but I've never heard of the Attorney General complaining about it. But if you think that what I'm talking about is illegal and you're so bent out of shape about it, then I insist that you report me; you might want to start here: http://baltimore.fbi.gov/. Good luck.



That's because there's no enforcement article, but thanks for reading. However, doesn't it strike you as odd that people try to respect the flag by violating the very rules laid down to govern how to respect the flag? Of course I'm not so insecure with my respect for my country that I have to go around disrespecting my country in an misguided attempt to honor it. 



> Oh, in case you couldn't tell, that was a *put up, or shut the **** up* call.



Stay classy.


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## JJR512 (Sep 30, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> That's because there's no enforcement article, but thanks for reading. However, doesn't it strike you as odd that people try to respect the flag by violating the very rules laid down to govern how to respect the flag? Of course I'm not so insecure with my respect for my country that I have to go around disrespecting my country in an misguided attempt to honor it.


First, this is not an issue of someone trying to respect the flag. People do not display the flag to respect the flag; they display the flag to respect the country for which it stands. Second, no rules are being violated here. I understand that you believe they are, but you're still mistaken. Third, I believe that we should not get so caught up in the letter of the law that we forget what it's really about. It seems that I've successfully reduced your arguments down to the point where all you have left to argue is that what I'm putting on my helmet is a _sticker_, and not a _patch_. I mean...really? _Either way, it's an image of the flag, so what difference does it really make what technology is used to affix it?_ Were stickers even invented when that law was written? Maybe that's why stickers aren't included in the text, and since then, nobody ever thought anyone would be asinine enough to argue against stickers because they're not patches!




> Stay classy.


Yeah, that's why I wrote asterisks instead of some actual word. And I wasn't kidding, either. I *dare* you, I *challenge* you, to contact the FBI, or the US Attorney General, or anyone else you can think of, and tell them about what I'm doing. And don't forget to tell them about the several T-shirts I own (and bought at Walmart) that have images of the American flag on them as well. I am absolutely not kidding. If I'm wrong, if I get arrested and put in jail, well then I'll deserve it. Go on, please. Do it. Make the call. Put up, or shut up.


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## ffemt8978 (Sep 30, 2010)

Knock it off, both of you.


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## JPINFV (Sep 30, 2010)

Redacted due to prior post.


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## Bosco578 (Oct 5, 2010)

our helmets arent sectioned like that, we use the Cairns Rescue 360R
https://www.rkb.us/contentdetail.cfm?content_id=173939

We use the same,only blue,and with the visor.


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## Bullets (Oct 5, 2010)

Bosco578 said:


> our helmets arent sectioned like that, we use the Cairns Rescue 360R
> https://www.rkb.us/contentdetail.cfm?content_id=173939
> 
> We use the same,only blue,and with the visor.



ours are blue too, Lts and Sgts have red, Capt has white. we had the option of the internal visor, some went with it but i dont like it. i went with the ESS googles


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## Bosco578 (Oct 6, 2010)

How do like the goggles? I think they would be much better than the visor.


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## JJR512 (Oct 6, 2010)

Bosco578 said:


> How do like the goggles? I think they would be much better than the visor.



I know your question wasn't directed at me, but I'm going to say what I think of goggles anyway. I haven't ever worn a helmet with a visor, so I can't make a direct comparison.

I can say that the goggles aren't nearly as easy to use as I thought they would be, or as I assume the visor would be. I mean, the visor you just flip down and that's it. I had assumed that to don the goggles, you would just pull them away from the front of the helmet enough to clear the brim, pull them down over the brim, and then put them over your eyes and that would be that. But the first time I tried that, I discovered that I would have to tighten the straps on them to get them to actually stay on my face. But then I further discovered that if I wanted to put them back up above the brim, I'd have to loosen them again, because when they were tightened enough to fit my face, the straps were too tight to let the goggles stretch over the brim. Well, actually, to be fair, I do also have the Bourkes, so that's another two inches or so that they have to pass over; maybe if I didn't have the Bourkes, I'd be able to just leave the straps tight all the time, although that might places some strain on the mounting posts. So who knows. But I do think the visor is easier or simpler to use.

That being said, I don't like looking through a lens that's as far away from my face as a visor would be. The closer a lens is to your eyes, the better able you are to kind of see through any light scratches that might be there. Also, with goggles, you can kind of become unaware that there's anything there at all, because it's so close to your face and the frame of the goggles is right at the edge of your peripheral vision. As I said, I haven't ever worn a helmet with a visor so I've never looked through a visor, but it seems that you'd be able to see the bottom edge of the visor, especially if you were looking down. And since the back side of the visor (the side that faces your face) is partially exposed (not sealed to your face like goggles), there's a chance that light can reflect on the inner surface of the visor, which might possible be distracting. This might only be a small problem, I don't know, but if the chance it can happen is bigger than zero, then that's a greater chance of it happening than with goggles.


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## Bosco578 (Oct 20, 2010)

Sorry for the late reply. I as well assumed the goggles would slip down and on, I see now that that is not the case. I never have had any issues with the visor, I usually wear my safety glasses as well during extrications.

Thanks for the info.


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## DrParasite (Oct 21, 2010)

if using the flag as clothing is illegal, I think someone should file charges against these people:


















Personally, I don't like decorating my helmet with that flag design.  I have an American flag on my helmet, a star of life and a set of irons and a skull, as well as the appropriate number of reflective tetrahedrons.  and on my rescue helmet, I have a heavy rescue company sticker. 

btw, goggles are good, but if you have glasses they can suck.  get a pair of safety glasses, ones that fit over your eye glasses, they are the best eye protection, plus if you scratch/damage them, they cost about $8 to replace.

Sidenote: I have an issued traditional 1010 & personal American Classic with Bourkes, because I like the look and style of the helmet.  I hate visors.  I am also on the technical rescue team at my part time job, and am issued a Pacific R3 Kiwi USAR Certified Rescue Helmet that stays with my turnout gear, and have a Pacific R3 Kiwi helmet that I keep with me for ambulance operations.


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## wyoskibum (Oct 21, 2010)

*Why bother?????*



JJR512 said:


> I have a yellow fire helmet, and am going to be decorating it essentially the same as the one in this picture:



Seriously, you might as well just put in large letters WHACKER.  A helmet is for protection.  If you must put something on it, a simple star of life to identify you as a medical provider and perhaps some personal identifier (first or last name).

People will take you serious without all of that crap on your helmet.  Just my opinion.


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## Lifeguards For Life (Oct 21, 2010)

wyoskibum said:


> Seriously, you might as well just put in large letters WHACKER.  A helmet is for protection.  If you must put something on it, a simple star of life to identify you as a medical provider and perhaps some personal identifier (first or last name).
> 
> People will take you serious without all of that crap on your helmet.  Just my opinion.



he's not a firefighter either?


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## JJR512 (Oct 21, 2010)

wyoskibum said:


> Seriously, you might as well just put in large letters WHACKER.  A helmet is for protection.  If you must put something on it, a simple star of life to identify you as a medical provider and perhaps some personal identifier (first or last name).
> 
> People will take you serious without all of that crap on your helmet.  Just my opinion.



First of all, if I put WHACKER in large letters on it, there wouldn't be room for the things I actually want on it. What I want on it is what I've described. If I wanted WHACKER in larger letters on my helmet, I would have asked you where can I get large stick-on letters. Understand?

Second of all, I really do not give a ****ing damn if anyone thinks I'm a whacker or not. I _am_ somewhat of a whacker (not a full total whacker), and I'm not ashamed of that. So what?

Finally, people should take me seriously (or not) based on how I perform in the field. I, the person, am going to perform the same in the field regardless of if my helmet is bone stock, or if it's decorated like I'm talking about, or if it says WHACKER in large letters on it. Nobody should determine whether or not to take me seriously based solely on my helmet, or what's on it. If they do, that's THEIR problem. THEY'RE the one with the prejudices and the stupidity.


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## JJR512 (Oct 21, 2010)

Lifeguards For Life said:


> he's not a firefighter either?



Not at this time, no.

I thought I had explained this in the original post. My department issues helmets (and turnout gear of some kind—not always structural) to _all_ field personnel, even those who are EMS-only. I may not be saving burning buildings, but I _might_ be going into a wrecked car to save (or help thereto) a _life_, and they want people in that situation to be protected. I have elected to get my own helmet for two reasons: 1. The one I picked offers better impact/puncture resistance than the issued one, which I thought might be important if I'm around saw blades, hydraulic tools, shrapnel, etc; 2. If I own it, I can decorate it however I want (within reason).


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