# EMT Stole Ambulance Supplies to Kill Wife - Angel of Mercy or Psycho?



## Mountain Res-Q (Oct 30, 2009)

This happened in March, but I don;t remember anything about this, so...

http://www.wave3.com/Global/story.asp?S=11403156

So, basiclly, the woman had Crohn's Disease and was on various pain medications.  The husband, an EMT employed by an Ambulance Service, stole IV supplies, with which he administered undisclosed medications to his wife over a period of 6 months (including crushed pills).

911 was called when she arrested; apparently as a result of "a lethal combination of Phenegran and Hydrocodone"; mind you, she was also on Dilaudid.

Here is what gets me:

_"Russ_ (the LEO Investigator), _a former EMT himself, began interviewing several of Whitehead's_ (the EMT accused) _co-workers at Yellow Ambulance. One stated to Russ, that Whitehead pulled out a knife at work and told people his wife 'didn't love him anymore and he should go kill his wife or kill himself.' An employee who filed sexual harassment claims against Whitehead said there was a known concern about his mental status. She told police Whitehead would come up from behind, grab her breasts and say 'he would kill his wife to be with her.' Another employee said the harassment included Whitehead sending her a picture of his penis." _

Excuse me???  Does this seem a "tad odd" to you and reason for concern if you were a co-worker?  And he is still working for them?  He still has access to these supplies?  He wasn't considered a danger to self and others?  In EMS, Scene Safety is preached like gospel.  We (usually) stage for a call where the pt is suicidal and/or a danger to others...  It sounds like his co-workers should have been staging outside crew quarters at the start of every shift, waiting for LE to arrive and secure the quarters, removing the EMT for a psych hold.  No one saw this coming?  :wacko:


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## mct601 (Oct 30, 2009)

this guy should have been evaluated by a psych and definitely not been employed as an EMT. this is another example of all the warning signs in place but no one taking the proper measures to prevent a bad situation from happening


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## willbeflight (Oct 30, 2009)

Wow!!  That is really crazy that no one did anything about him before this!!!


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## Dominion (Oct 30, 2009)

I worked with said EMT one shift.  After that shift I told supervisors I would never work with him again and it wasn't questioned as he had very few people willing to work with him.  He was pretty psycho and no matter the number of complaints against him, the old administration at Yellow Ambulance would not fire him.  

It's something I think could have been avoided, granted I worked with him sometime in early 2008.


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## downunderwunda (Oct 30, 2009)

Dominion said:


> I worked with said EMT one shift.  After that shift I told supervisors I would never work with him again and it wasn't questioned as he had very few people willing to work with him.  He was pretty psycho and no matter the number of complaints against him, the old administration at Yellow Ambulance would not fire him.
> 
> It's something I think could have been avoided, granted I worked with him sometime in early 2008.



Sounds like the 'Old administration' should also be held accountable.

The actions described in the statment, particularly 





> She told police Whitehead would come up from behind, grab her breasts and say 'he would kill his wife to be with her.' Another employee said the harassment included Whitehead sending her a picture of his penis."



Show this person has an obvious problem. It isnt necesarrily a psych problem.
More than likley a personality disorder. However, sexual harrassment in any workplace is not acceptable & he should have been dismissed with criminal charges pending. Although I am wondering if they took pity on him after they saw his penis in the picture he sent.

Euthenasia is still illegal in most countries, including the US, but that is a debate for another thread. Provided we can keep the religous zealots from hijacking it.


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## usafmedic45 (Oct 31, 2009)

> It isnt necesarrily a psych problem.  More than likley a personality disorder.



Care to explain how a personality disorder is not, by definition, "a psych problem"?


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## VentMedic (Oct 31, 2009)

usafmedic45 said:


> Care to explain how a personality disorder is not, by definition, "a psych problem"?


 
I can give you an example.

Ted Bundy was classified with a personality disorder that could be differentiated from other forms of psychotic disorders that allowed the State of Florida to give him the death penalty and carry through with it.


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## downunderwunda (Oct 31, 2009)

usafmedic45 said:


> Care to explain how a personality disorder is not, by definition, "a psych problem"?



I would suggest that you check out this link http://www.4degreez.com/misc/personality_disorder_test.mv & take the test. You will be surprised I am sure.

True 'psych patients' have a diagnosed psychiatric illness. A list can be found http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Psychiatric+illness.

The World Health Organisation have started that by 2020  Mental Illness wil be the second biggest killer worldwide, behind trauma.

EMS will see personality disorders daily, but never do much for them. Personality disorders tend to effect a persons way of life & functionality, such as Obsessive Compulsive disorder, & with treatment, can be rectified without the use of drugs in many cases. They are generally considered a psycholgical disorder.

Psychiatric Illness effects the total life of the person, they require medication to control what is happening & they will be on those meds for life.


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## Onceamedic (Oct 31, 2009)

So I took the test - 

*Disorder              	Rating * 
Paranoid: 	                Low 	
Schizoid:            	Low 	
Schizotypal:        	Low 	
Antisocial:           	Low 	
Borderline:          	Low 	
Histrionic:                	Low 	
Narcissistic: 	        Low 	
Avoidant: 	                Low 	
Dependent: 	        Low 	
Obsessive-Compulsive: 	Low 	

I guess I am pretty balanced today.  If I had taken it at the end of a s**t kicker 48, I may not have scored as balanced.


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## exodus (Oct 31, 2009)

Disorder | Rating
Paranoid: High
Schizoid: Low
Schizotypal: Moderate
Antisocial: Moderate
Borderline: Very High
Histrionic: High
Narcissistic: High
Avoidant: High
Dependent: Very High
Obsessive-Compulsive: Low

URL of the test: http://www.4degreez.com/misc/personality_disorder_test.mv
URL for more info: http://www.4degreez.com/disorder/index.html


------
Heh... Well I've been diagnosed with histrionics disorder already... lol


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## downunderwunda (Oct 31, 2009)

Can I assume from this kaisu & exodous that you both now know the difference between Psychiatric illness & personality disorders?


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## Onceamedic (Oct 31, 2009)

Insanity is the sane response to an insane world - Eric Fromme


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## usafmedic45 (Oct 31, 2009)

> True 'psych patients' have a diagnosed psychiatric illness





> Can I assume from this kaisu & exodous that you both now know the difference between Psychiatric illness & personality disorders?



But a personality disorder, by definition, to be present (and not just in the commonly used sense of "he's an :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored:/weird/scary and therefore he has a personality problem") would require a diagnosis of one of the recognized personality disorders (which are psychiatric illnesses).  That was the point I was driving at and not anything to do with sanity vs insanity, etc.  You seem to be missing the point I made earlier.


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## usafmedic45 (Nov 1, 2009)

> Ted Bundy was classified with a personality disorder that could be differentiated from other forms of psychotic disorders that allowed the State of Florida to give him the death penalty and carry through with it.



It's because personality disorders are usually described along the lines of "narcissistic personality disorder with sociopathic features", "antisocial personality disorder with psychotic features", "borderline personality disorder with depressive features" to further specify the nature of the patient's condition.  It was the "descriptor" (or rather the implications of that specification i.e., whether he was legally responsible for his actions and if so, to what degree) versus the "main diagnosis" that I believe you're referring to or at least that is what I was taught by a psychiatrist who taught the abnormal and criminal psych course I took.


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## downunderwunda (Nov 1, 2009)

Generally, & as with all medicine, even moreso with mental illness, there are many grey areas. There are many people who function in society with a personality disorder, with no underlying psychiatric illness.

OCD is one, there are many people with narcissistic personality traits that are predominent in certain situations, that do not have underlying psychiatric issues.

I did understand what you were saying. If you look at the results that were posted, one, at the time the test was taken, had no predisposition to any associated disorder, the other was predisposed to multiple disorders. Does this mean they will not be able to function? No. If it got to a point where they saw a psychiatrist & were diagnosed with a personality disorder alone, then chances are they would be refered on for assessment & treatment by a psychologist. There is also a sideline there that depression can be an associated factor, as it can be with chronic illness, undiagnosed illness etc. This type of depression is usually transient & in time the person will no longer require assistance.

True depression, or as you described 





> borderline personality disorder with depressive features


 means the person suffers depression primarily & the borderline personality disorder is amplifying that. Probability is that even when the personality disorder is treated, the person will still be suffering from depression. 

Yes they require a diagnosis from a Psychiatrist, but that is where the similarities end.


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## usafmedic45 (Nov 1, 2009)

> Generally, & as with all medicine, even moreso with mental illness, there are many grey areas. There are many people who function in society with a personality disorder, with no underlying psychiatric illness.





> OCD is one, there are many people with narcissistic personality traits that are predominent in certain situations, that do not have underlying psychiatric issues.



Then why is it a psychiatric diagnosis in the DSM?  That is the source of criteria for OCD.  Either you meet the criteria or you don't have the disorder.  I admit there are a lot of grey areas, but just because we use "OCD" to describe anyone who is a little uptight does not mean people who have it- truly have it- do not have "psychiatric issues".  

I am assuming by "psychiatric issues" you mean that they are demented, sociopathic, non-functionality or otherwise severely disturbed.  There are a lot of people who have psychiatric issues who are very high functioning at least most of the time.  I think this is where the breakdown in communication and understanding is occurring: you're speaking in very general, unprofessional (laymen's) terms to express your opinion while I am attempting to stick to the strict diagnostic criteria of the psychiatric profession.  



> True depression, or as you described
> Quote:
> borderline personality disorder with depressive features
> means the person suffers depression primarily & the borderline personality disorder is amplifying that. Probability is that even when the personality disorder is treated, the person will still be suffering from depression.



Try again.  Most personality disorders are notoriously hard to treat, but it does not imply the the primary problem is the depression.  The underlying condition is paramount with the depression overlaying it.  Usually the description I used is given when the person does not meet the necessary criteria for the second diagnosis of depression, etc.  If the primary problem was the depression it would be described something along the lines of "clinical depression with narcissistic features" if there was not the full criteria being met for a second diagnosis of NPD.  Do you see what I am getting at here?


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## Seaglass (Nov 2, 2009)

downunderwunda said:


> I would suggest that you check out this link http://www.4degreez.com/misc/personality_disorder_test.mv & take the test. You will be surprised I am sure.



... It's relatively short, yet claims to tell you your level of risk for all sorts of personality disorders. The next suggested quiz is that Dante's Inferno thing. Does this sound like a valid test from a legitimate site to you? If so, go read up on testing development and administration. Tests like that are fun, but please don't recommend them as being useful for anything. 

If anyone wants a real personality disorder test, I'd recommend the MMPI-2. It's a lot harder to find and a lot less fun, though. 



> Psychiatric Illness effects the total life of the person, they require medication to control what is happening & they will be on those meds for life.



No, they don't always require meds, and patients usually won't be on a particular set of drugs for life. Plenty of people never require them, come off of them, or only require them occasionally. Meanwhile, pretty much every patient will have their meds adjusted or changed several times over the course of their treatment. 

It's quite irresponsible of you to make completely false claims on a forum where people actually try to learn things. You're obviously interested in the subject. So please do yourself a favor and take some psych classes--try abnormal, assessment, and clinical--before trying to educate others. At the very least, read up on the subject from legitimate sites. You can even start with Wikipedia... a lot of their psych articles are actually decent. 



			
				VentMedic said:
			
		

> Ted Bundy was classified with a personality disorder that could be differentiated from other forms of psychotic disorders that allowed the State of Florida to give him the death penalty and carry through with it.



It's still a psych problem... just not one that meant he couldn't tell the difference between right and wrong, and/or couldn't control his impulses to do wrong. In most states, those two criteria determine legal insanity. You can have plenty of psych problems without being legally insane, though I don't know of any cases where the reverse is true.


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## Chrissy88 (Nov 6, 2009)

Gotta love these tests..

Disorder	Rating	
Paranoid:	High	
Schizoid:	High	
Schizotypal:	High	
Antisocial:	High	
Borderline:	Very High	
Histrionic:	Moderate	
Narcissistic:	High	
Avoidant:	Very High	
Dependent:	High	
Obsessive-Compulsive:	Moderate


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## downunderwunda (Nov 7, 2009)

Seaglass said:


> ... It's relatively short, yet claims to tell you your level of risk for all sorts of personality disorders. The next suggested quiz is that Dante's Inferno thing. Does this sound like a valid test from a legitimate site to you? If so, go read up on testing development and administration. Tests like that are fun, but please don't recommend them as being useful for anything.
> 
> If anyone wants a real personality disorder test, I'd recommend the MMPI-2. It's a lot harder to find and a lot less fun, though.



This was a suggestion & not intended to be a full diagnostic test. It is, however a reasonably similar test used for a quick evaluation. 





Seaglass said:


> No, they don't always require meds, and patients usually won't be on a particular set of drugs for life. Plenty of people never require them, come off of them, or only require them occasionally. Meanwhile, pretty much every patient will have their meds adjusted or changed several times over the course of their treatment.



Yes I agree & stand corrected. Many will be on meds for a period & then come off, however there are also a number who will be on meds for life.



Seaglass said:


> It's quite irresponsible of you to make completely false claims on a forum where people actually try to learn things. You're obviously interested in the subject. So please do yourself a favor and take some psych classes--try abnormal, assessment, and clinical--before trying to educate others. At the very least, read up on the subject from legitimate sites. You can even start with Wikipedia... a lot of their psych articles are actually decent.



I have stood corrected on 1 point. Yes I am interested in the subject, however, but please dont tell me to take a class when you dont know me, my experience or credentials, especially from 1 comment made in error. I have studied psych illness & actiually understand the difference between a personality disorder & a psychiatric illness. I would also suggest the quality of information of wikipedia when they state 





> Welcome to Wikipedia,
> the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit.


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## usafmedic45 (Nov 7, 2009)

> especially from 1 comment made in error. I have studied psych illness & actiually understand the difference between a personality disorder & a psychiatric illness



You made more than one error.  I've counted at least three you've made based upon your comments and suggestion of that insipid little test being even close to a valid "quick assessment".  Just because you've studied something doesn't mean you understand it well enough to extrapolate or apply it.  In my case, a good example of this is that I've studied calculus but I sure as hell can't argue it against those who know it better than I do, just like you can't defend your stances against two people (Seaglass and myself) who understand your "area of interest" a hell of a lot better than you do.  

Either you're wrong and don't want to admit it or the Aussies play by entirely different rules than the rest of the world because there is no such distinction according to the internationally applied DSM-IV-TR standards which list personality disorders as Axis II psychiatric illnesses (see: http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/prsnltydsrdr.htm).   I am a big believer in Occam's razor: the explanation that requires the fewest assumptions if probably correct.  I also hereby posit what we can call USAFMEDIC45's razor:  The most likely explanation is that you're full of **** but your ego won't let you admit you're wrong.

Quoting from that website: "The purpose of DSM-IV is to provide clear descriptions of diagnostic categories in order to enable clinicians and investigators to diagnose, communicate about, study, and treat people with various _mental disorders_".  We are not talking the legal definitions of sanity, mental fitness or anything else. We are talking strictly the clinical diagnoses here and a personality disorder IS a psychiatric illness (or mental disorder, same animal only describe in slight more politically correct terms), regardless of what you want to think you know about these illnesses.   You are arguing the psychiatric equivalent of saying that mild asthma really isn't a lung disorder because it's "mild".


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## usafmedic45 (Nov 7, 2009)

BTW, I asked one of my friends who is a physician in Australia and yes, "as far he knows" you all do rely upon the DSM for diagnostic criteria.


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## VentMedic (Nov 7, 2009)

usafmedic45 said:


> BTW, I asked one of my friends who is a physician in Australia and yes, "as far he knows" you all do rely upon the DSM for diagnostic criteria.


 

Australia?

Just like the interpretation and standardization of various RT definitions of disease processes, the classification and treatments vary from country to country even with some "uniform" standards such as the DSM. 

For more info,  this is a good site for reading.
http://www.psych.org/MainMenu/Research/DSMIV/DSMV/DSMRevisionActivities/TaskForceReports.aspx


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## Seaglass (Nov 7, 2009)

downunderwunda said:


> This was a suggestion & not intended to be a full diagnostic test. It is, however a reasonably similar test used for a quick evaluation.



Not that I've ever encountered, at least as used by actual practitioners. What's the title of this similar tool? Can you find any peer-reviewed studies on its development and validity? 



> I have stood corrected on 1 point. Yes I am interested in the subject, however, but please dont tell me to take a class when you dont know me, my experience or credentials, especially from 1 comment made in error. I have studied psych illness & actiually understand the difference between a personality disorder & a psychiatric illness. I would also suggest the quality of information of wikipedia when they state



I don't know your history, but I do know that you're dispensing inaccurate information that strongly suggests that you've either received poor information, remembered what you learned poorly, or never learned it in the first place. 

I know that Wikipedia's articles tend to be decent because they generally reflect my textbooks, journal articles, and lecture, and generally cite legitimate sources. Unlike those, it doesn't cost anything. Unlike most databases and actual psych sites, it's user-friendly, easy to navigate, and doesn't assume a certain base level of knowledge. Hence my suggestion for starting there.


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## usafmedic45 (Nov 7, 2009)

> Australia?



Since DownUnderWunda lives there, I figured I should find out if his country's docs were operating off of a different standard.  Apparently they are not for the most part.  He's just missing something either out of ignorance or otherwise.



> Just like the interpretation and standardization of various RT definitions of disease processes, the classification and treatments vary from country to country even with some "uniform" standards such as the DSM.



Right.  The problem is that what you discussed is especially in a problem in psychology which has so many camps within it with different views on how things are split, I wanted to make sure there wasn't something I was missing.  From what I've learned they pretty much play by the same rules we do.


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## Seaglass (Nov 7, 2009)

usafmedic45 said:


> From what I've learned they pretty much play by the same rules we do.



I've heard the same thing, and get the same impression from reading Australian journals. I won't claim to keep up with any regularly, but when one comes my way, it's like reading an American/British/Canadian article in a different format.


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