# Fake Responder Interferes at Oklahoma Crash Scene



## Hockey (Jul 16, 2009)

Jul. 15--At first glance, Joel Lack was an off-duty Tulsa firefighter who only wanted to help.

    A grisly, alcohol-related crash on Oklahoma 51 near 165th West Avenue had killed two bicyclists and injured a third. Mangled bicycle parts littered the road as Lack, 22, walked up and started tending to the victims.

But as investigators looked into Lack's story, it became clear that he was posing as an emergency responder and had entered the area illegally, Tulsa County Assistant District Attorney Steve Kunzweiler said.

     Prosecutors charged Lack on Monday with impersonating a firefighter, interfering with an emergency medical technician and two counts of grand larceny after the July 9 crash that killed Christa Voss, 33, of Owasso and Matthew Edmonds, 34, of Tulsa. Another cyclist was seriously injured.

Lack is accused of walking into the scene -- at one point holding an IV bag and jumping into an ambulance -- and making off with medical equipment and controlled drugs.

         Kunzweiler said Lack flashed a badge, had medical equipment with him and claimed to have experience as a paramedic.

     Those claims started unraveling when medics noticed that a bag of medicine was missing. Other workers questioned Lack about the gear, and he stuck to the story about being an off-duty firefighter, Kunzweiler said.

*Read more below*

http://www.emsresponder.com/web/onl...der-Interferes-at-Oklahoma-Crash-Scene/1$9920


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## WuLabsWuTecH (Jul 16, 2009)

Wow, this is crazy.  Although we have no way of prventing it here either.  with such large departments not everyone knows everyone else.  the only way to control it is to say that only on duty responders can help which I think makes perfect sense in most situations.

Also, some may issue ID cards to try and rpevent this, but once again, if its my scene and I control it we don't need ID cards


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## LucidResq (Jul 16, 2009)

Nobody is touching my patient or coming near them unless they are on shift with me or I'm handing them off to an ambulance crew (working at the amusement park) or ED staff, or family. I don't care who you say you are, what badge you flash, or what equipment you have with you.


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## phabib (Jul 16, 2009)

Amazing how that guy didn't think it would backfire.


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## vquintessence (Jul 16, 2009)

God, this story will only help strengthen the relationship between Tulsa FD and EMSA...


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## CAOX3 (Jul 16, 2009)

I could see how this could happen in areas that utilize volunteers and response times are extended.  Who the heck knows who is supposed to be there and who isn't.

In my area if your not wearing one of the three uniforms you dont get in.  If your first on scene then thank you and will take it from here.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jul 16, 2009)

This last winter the Snow Park I part-time manage as an EMT had  similiar issue.  We hired a new EMT who had just passed the class and had yet to get his official cert in the mail yet (as he told us).  He did have a valid MFR cert that was presented to us.  Since we hire both EMT and MFR, we said, "No problem.  Get us a copy of the EMT cert when it comes in and for now you can work under the dirrection of the EMT's as a MFR."  Over the next several months he kept making excuses about the card being held up for various reasons (paperwork, mailing, etc...) and when all was said and done, we never got a copy of an EMT cert.  However, he was a MFR and acted as such for the duration of the season, but the fact that we never got an EMT cert, despite his insistance that he had passed all the required testing and certification, made us wonder.  Turns out that he passed everything except the written certification test and was trying to arrange to retake the test... until then he figured he could just lie and buy time.  Illegal?  I don't know if he ever lied to a patient and identifed himself as an EMT, but he did lie to us (his managers and employeer), and WILL NOT be rehired next year despite the he loved it here and it worked perfectly in his plans to get his LVN.

Sad fact is that anyone can get a metal badge of e-bay or Galls, make an ID badge and pass themselves off as a FF or Medic on the scene of a call.  And who has the time to check credintials?  My policy... "okay, I don't know you and we have the scene under control... please step back."


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## timmy84 (Jul 16, 2009)

WoW... using a bag of NS to score a vial of MS.  I suppose I have heard of stranger ways of getting a fix, but to wander on to the scene of a double fatality... creepy!


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## Foxbat (Jul 16, 2009)

Why would anybody even want to pretend to be someone he can become after a few weeks' course?


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## EMTinNEPA (Jul 16, 2009)

If only they still did public lynchings... somebody should gather together a posse, go out, and then come back with his ear or something.


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## amberdt03 (Jul 16, 2009)

LucidResq said:


> Nobody is touching my patient or coming near them unless they are on shift with me or I'm handing them off to an ambulance crew (working at the amusement park) or ED staff, or family. I don't care who you say you are, what badge you flash, or what equipment you have with you.





i know what you mean.....when i worked at a flea market, i had a cpr and some random guy saying he was cpr certified and that he could help....i already had a dps officer doing compressions and i was bagging the patient. when he couldn't produce a card he was told to leave.


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## spnx (Jul 20, 2009)

When I was in Nova Scotia, there was a guy who had stolen EHS Paramedic uniforms, a PCP tag and RCMP (Mountie) uniforms.

His gf was in the police and thought he was a paramedic.  He actually made had a recording of dispatch calls he'd play in the background when talking to her, and he was at "work".

I actually worked with him and his skills were good, he was just really freaking intense.  

He finally got busted with some underage girls.


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## TRowe (Aug 2, 2009)

Im not only a EMT (soon to be Paramedic) but also in the Sheriffs SAR here. I tend to respond to any emergency I see regardless of on duty or not, no matter what. However, in my vehicle (or any Im riding in at the time) I always have at the least my ball cap (Sheriffs Department Search and Resuce Medic) and if possible my uniform shirt (Sheriffs Dept. patches, same basic uniform, just organge instead of black), trauma bag with a star of life and "Sheriff Search and Rescue" on it, my Sheriffs ID card, orange vest saying Sheriff Medic and sometimes my badge. I typically always wear boots and bdu's if not my complete uniform. I do off-duty patrols during peak times to alleviate the needs of the department. 

The point is I have a buddy who wanted to be a cop, firefighter etc. all his life but never did it. When Im doing off-duty patrols, he comes along and helps out. He tries to claim he is with me, giving off the appearance of being in the Sheriffs, a medic or whatever. I always call him on it but it causes problems for me, someone who is legitimate and trying to help. Thats why I always try and be ready because around here, a big metro area, people, especially PD, SD and FD, are weary of others. My friend doesnt help that. 

The moral of this is always carry around your uniform or at least ID. I never accept the help of someone unless I know they are legit. To much a liability. My buddy usually just does crowd control or gets me supplies. I never let him do anything medical (except help in CPR which he is certified).


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## EMS49393 (Aug 2, 2009)

How did he get the narcs?  We lock ours up, he'd need a crowbar to get into our cabinets without a key.  

I have a few choice names to call this guy, but I understand this is a family site.


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## Dominion (Aug 2, 2009)

In my area there are only certain people who we will allow into the scene once care has been established, and thats one of the medical directors who works with a couple services here.  He will sometimes make interesting sounding medical runs with the crews and offer advice but he never gets hands on unless someone is screwing something up bad.  He is a good Doc and a really good guy so no one minds. 

I don't think anyone regardless of afiliation should be involved in patient care or rescue once resources have shown up.  If you stop prior to an ambulance arriving, great, thanks for your help we'll take over from here.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Aug 2, 2009)

TRowe said:


> Im not only a EMT (soon to be Paramedic) but also in the Sheriffs SAR here. I tend to respond to any emergency I see regardless of on duty or not, no matter what. However, in my vehicle (or any Im riding in at the time) I always have at the least my ball cap (Sheriffs Department Search and Resuce Medic) and if possible my uniform shirt (Sheriffs Dept. patches, same basic uniform, just organge instead of black), trauma bag with a star of life and "Sheriff Search and Rescue" on it, my Sheriffs ID card, orange vest saying Sheriff Medic and sometimes my badge. I typically always wear boots and bdu's if not my complete uniform. I do off-duty patrols during peak times to alleviate the needs of the department.
> 
> The point is I have a buddy who wanted to be a cop, firefighter etc. all his life but never did it. When Im doing off-duty patrols, he comes along and helps out. He tries to claim he is with me, giving off the appearance of being in the Sheriffs, a medic or whatever. I always call him on it but it causes problems for me, someone who is legitimate and trying to help. Thats why I always try and be ready because around here, a big metro area, people, especially PD, SD and FD, are weary of others. My friend doesnt help that.
> 
> The moral of this is always carry around your uniform or at least ID. I never accept the help of someone unless I know they are legit. To much a liability. My buddy usually just does crowd control or gets me supplies. I never let him do anything medical (except help in CPR which he is certified).



I'd be interested to know if you have official approval for these actions from your county Sheriff.  Without it you are not covered by Disaster Workers Relief Compensation or any other legal protection that the county provides.  Not to mention, that without the sanction by the Sheriff, you are actually no different than anyone else who "responds" to calls without being dispatched... and the term wacker could even be used.    The reason I ask is that I am in the same position, however, unless we are paged out for a SAR call, we are not covered by the county/state and are acting on our own without approval.  There has to be some legal authority to act, otherwise the very act of putting opn the uniform could be at issue.  I know that if I acted as you are, I'd be done in SAR and probably in EMS for exceeding my authority (even as a Team Leader).


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## triemal04 (Aug 3, 2009)

TRowe said:


> Im not only a EMT (soon to be Paramedic) but also in the Sheriffs SAR here. *I tend to respond to any emergency I see regardless of on duty or not, no matter what.* *However, in my vehicle (or any Im riding in at the time) I always have at the least my ball cap (Sheriffs Department Search and Resuce Medic) and if possible my uniform shirt (Sheriffs Dept. patches, same basic uniform, just organge instead of black), trauma bag with a star of life and "Sheriff Search and Rescue" on it, my Sheriffs ID card, orange vest saying Sheriff Medic and sometimes my badge. I typically always wear boots and bdu's if not my complete uniform. I do off-duty patrols during peak times to alleviate the needs of the department.*
> 
> The point is I have a buddy who wanted to be a cop, firefighter etc. all his life but never did it. *When Im doing off-duty patrols,* he comes along and helps out. He tries to claim he is with me, giving off the appearance of being in the Sheriffs, a medic or whatever. I always call him on it but *it causes problems for me, someone who is legitimate and trying to help.* Thats why *I always try and be ready because around here, a big metro area*, people, especially PD, SD and FD, are weary of others. My friend doesnt help that.
> 
> The moral of this is always carry around your uniform or at least ID. I never accept the help of someone unless I know they are legit. To much a liability. My buddy usually just does crowd control or gets me supplies. I never let him do anything medical (except help in CPR which he is certified).


Holy whackerdom batman!  Just a couple of the more disturbing parts of that post.

So, let's get this straight.  Despite living in a large metropolitan area (Sacramento) you do "off-duty patrols."  So, you, despite not being an actual deputy or having any capacity as a LEO drive around looking for criminals and emergencies?  Please tell me it ain't so. 

You always respond to "any" emergency you see...even if you will be completely unable to help and potentially detrimental on scene. 

You often wear your "uniform" when not working (or volunteering as the case may be) and carry essentially a wardrobe of pseudo-official gear in your car.

You are legitimately a volunteer SAR member...that's all.  Your "trying to help" (in a frickin city of all places) is not going to be needed.  Save it for a situation when you are needed.

And if someone dressed in the clothes you describe popped out of their car and started trying to "help" with whatever situation I was facing, the response would be the same as any other person would get:  "Thanks, we've got it covered.  Now I need you to step back, right now."  

Thank god I don't live in California...


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## Hockey (Aug 4, 2009)

triemal04 said:


> Holy whackerdom batman!  Just a couple of the more disturbing parts of that post.
> 
> So, let's get this straight.  Despite living in a large metropolitan area (Sacramento) you do "off-duty patrols."  So, you, despite not being an actual deputy or having any capacity as a LEO drive around looking for criminals and emergencies?  Please tell me it ain't so.
> 
> ...



http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?p=167307#post167307
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?p=167304#post167304


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## Mountain Res-Q (Aug 4, 2009)

triemal04 said:


> Holy whackerdom batman!  Just a couple of the more disturbing parts of that post.
> 
> So, let's get this straight.  Despite living in a large metropolitan area (Sacramento) you do "off-duty patrols."  So, you, despite not being an actual deputy or having any capacity as a LEO drive around looking for criminals and emergencies?  Please tell me it ain't so.
> 
> ...



Don't lump all Californians in with that... or all SAR folks.

But, yes, I too have my concerns here... serious, legal concerns that I would like answered please...

Is it in the mandate of Sac SAR to do this?
Are you an authorized urban first responder service?
Is the Sheriff and the team aware of your actions?
Are you allowed to "respond" and "patrol" in a POV?
Are you covered by Disaster Workers Comp or the Sheriff when you do this?
Is your frind allowed to ride along by the Sheriff?
Is he covered by inusrance?
Is he allowed to help as you describe?
Is your vehicle coverd by the Sheriff for damage?
Is it code equipped (legally)?
Do you have a radio that you are allowed to communicate on in these cirrcumstances (i.e. does Dispatch recognize you as a responding unit)?
How long have you been withe the Team?
What is your level of certification (you have yet to have a single cert listed; on some posts you are a medic student, on others an EMT, on othes a pre-EMT-student and yet you identify yourself as a SAR Medic to the public)?
Is there any difference between you and joe blow whacker tht is described by the OP's story?

Seriously, as a legit California EMSer and a member of the SAR community, I am concerned and really worried about your actions and any reproach it could bring on the local Emergency Services organizations.


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## reaper (Aug 4, 2009)

I was wondering how someone is a Paramedic student, but has not taken EMT yet? I know Cali is backwards, But I know they are not that backwards?


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## Mountain Res-Q (Aug 4, 2009)

reaper said:


> I was wondering how someone is a Paramedic student, but has not taken EMT yet? I know Cali is backwards, But I know they are not that backwards?



My 12 year old cousin wants to be a lifeguard in a few years and is already claiming to be pre-med to his friends.  he responds to calls on his bike and does brain surgery on intracranial bleeds...


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## triemal04 (Aug 4, 2009)

Based on his posts I'm guessing that he's nothing more than a kid...at best maybe 18 or so, but I have my doubts about even that.  Something similar to your cousin really...I know there are SAR teams that have teens as members so that part may even be legit.

And don't worry, I'm not lumping all SAR teams together; my past teammates might be upset with me if I did.


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## MrBrown (Aug 4, 2009)

TRowe said:


> Im not only a EMT (soon to be Paramedic) but also in the Sheriffs SAR here. I tend to respond to any emergency I see regardless of on duty or not, no matter what. However, in my vehicle (or any Im riding in at the time) I always have at the least my ball cap (Sheriffs Department Search and Resuce Medic) and if possible my uniform shirt (Sheriffs Dept. patches, same basic uniform, just organge instead of black), trauma bag with a star of life and "Sheriff Search and Rescue" on it, my Sheriffs ID card, orange vest saying Sheriff Medic and sometimes my badge. I typically always wear boots and bdu's if not my complete uniform. I do off-duty patrols during peak times to alleviate the needs of the department.
> 
> The point is I have a buddy who wanted to be a cop, firefighter etc. all his life but never did it. When Im doing off-duty patrols, he comes along and helps out. He tries to claim he is with me, giving off the appearance of being in the Sheriffs, a medic or whatever. I always call him on it but it causes problems for me, someone who is legitimate and trying to help. Thats why I always try and be ready because around here, a big metro area, people, especially PD, SD and FD, are weary of others. My friend doesnt help that.
> 
> The moral of this is always carry around your uniform or at least ID. I never accept the help of someone unless I know they are legit. To much a liability. My buddy usually just does crowd control or gets me supplies. I never let him do anything medical (except help in CPR which he is certified).




Dude seriously WTF is wrong with you?  Sounds like you have some form of psychological problem.  Are these sorts of people common in the States, if so, man glad I don't work in EMS there.


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## Hockey (Aug 4, 2009)

triemal04 said:


> based on his posts i'm guessing that he's nothing more than a kid...at best maybe 18 or so, but i have my doubts about even that.  Something similar to your cousin really...i know there are sar teams that have teens as members so that part may even be legit.
> 
> And don't worry, i'm not lumping all sar teams together; my past teammates might be upset with me if i did.





ph??????????/


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## Shishkabob (Aug 4, 2009)

Scratch that... read his other post.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Aug 4, 2009)

Linuss said:


> He said "Not only an EMT" meaning he is one already.



Check out other threads.  he identifies himself 4 seperate ways:

Pre-EMT Student
Paramedic Student
EMT
SAR Paramedic Responding to Calls in his POV

You can't be all of them.  See post 13 on this thread and http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=14149

Nevr mind you changed your post after seeing other posts.  Odd, ain't it?


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## Shishkabob (Aug 4, 2009)

I beat you!


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## Mountain Res-Q (Aug 4, 2009)

Linuss said:


> I beat you!



Ya... and it hurts... were those brass knuckles?


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## triemal04 (Aug 4, 2009)

Hockey said:


> ph??????????/


I agree 100%.  No wait, I actually disagree 100%.  Wait...what exactly did you mean?  I'm so confused....

On a side note for the mods, the way this thread has gone is the way that all to often get's a thread closed and posts deleted.  I really hope that DOESN'T happen here; as so many people like to point out, this forum is open to anyone and we do sometimes get regular people with no EMS experience/knowledge here.  If the type of post that set off these last few posts is allowed to go unchallenged...what kind of image is that spreading?  Wouldn't it be better to make it clear that that type of behavior is not the norm and unacceptable?


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## csly27 (Aug 4, 2009)

I am originally from Sacramento, It is a big town. Alot of people most of them decent some not so much. With 2 main fire depts and and several private, you have to be able to know your surroundings if not the people, that are on scene, just keep your eyes peeled for unusual activity and if your not sure about someone introduce yourself and try to get some info a person who belongs will be able to answer appropriatly.  just my 2 cents,


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## Sasha (Aug 4, 2009)

> just keep your eyes peeled for unusual activity and if your not sure about someone introduce yourself and try to get some info a person who belongs will be able to answer appropriatly. just my 2 cents,



So you guys don't allow for outsiders or something and advocate vigilantes in Sacramento?


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