# Your patient asks you to pray with them



## Epi-do (Jul 13, 2009)

Sasha's post got me thinking, especially regarding those of you who stated you are athiests, do you pray with your patient if s/he asks you to do so?  What about if you are religious, but your patient appears to have vastly different beliefs than yourself?  If not, what do you say to them?  If they go ahead and pray without you, do respect their wish to do so, and give them a moment of silence?

I searched for a previous thread, and couldn't find one.  I can't believe it hasn't been discussed before.

Let me start by saying that while I do believe there is some sort of higher power, I struggle with the teachings of mainstream Christianity.  I believe that the Bible is full of stories that teach wonderful lessons, but don't necessarily believe that the Bible is a true/accurate telling of history.  I am not sure if that makes me an agnostic, or something else (although I am not sure what "title" it would be).

However, I do believe that positive thoughts and belief in something does help the healing process.  Because of that, if a patient asks to pray, I will hold their hand and give them a moment of silence if it is possible to do so.  When this has happened to me, I rarely have had a patient so sick/injured that I couldn't stop care for just a brief moment to fulfill a patient's request.  I look at it as one more thing I can do to help my patient.  If it helps to put them at ease, and make it easier for me to do the rest of my job, giving them a moment to say a brief prayer is easy enough to do.


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## Sasha (Jul 13, 2009)

It's not about me and my beliefs, it's about the patient and their comfort. As stated earlier, I am an atheist and have been for a long time, but if prayer will put a patient or their family at ease, I will happily join them. Be it God, Satan, Allah or The Mighty Dust Bunny, it is not my place to judge, nor a place to assert my atheism.


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## PapaBear434 (Jul 13, 2009)

I guess I'd do my job.  Depending on the call, I may have more important things to do than ask some mystic being that may or may not be imaginary to help.  God isn't going to stop that femoral bleed.  I am.

But if it they are stable and I'm just transporting, I may just bow my head and be respectful.  Just because I think it's BS doesn't mean that it won't help them feel better.  A calm patient is a good patient, in my experience.  I won't join in, necessarily, and explain to them that I have no specific faith, but they are more than welcome to pray.

I do the same at my daughter's private Lutheran school when they want me to pray.  Would work about the same way, I think.


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## subliminal1284 (Jul 13, 2009)

I agree with Sasha.


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## Maya (Jul 13, 2009)

Sure, why not.  I think Tincanfireman said it best.  It doesn't violate any of my beliefs, so if it makes the patient feel better, I don't see any reason not to pray with them.  I would do it out of respect for the patient's beliefs.

Even though I, personally, don't believe in miracles or an afterlife, that doesn't make them impossible.  It's just that I haven't experienced anything to make me believe.  I would be the first to admit that I could be wrong, and whether I am right or wrong, it's beside the point.  It's not about me, it's about the patient, and I think we're all equal no matter what we happen to believe.


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## Ridryder911 (Jul 13, 2009)

How do you pray, if you don't believe? Are you just saying empty words? I much rather for someone say, I wish you well. 

Before my father died, I remember some of his health care providers would say that and his response was then to ask them if they mind if he could pray for them? 

My minister is also the hospital Chaplain. He is amazing during stressful times, by handling the family and as well assisting the staff both physically and emotionally. Never gets in the way and will pray with the family in the corner of the room, with emphasis that we (health care providers) have a mission to do and should not stop. Emphasizing the importance of our actions at the time. 

I have no problem saying prayers with someone, what an honor to be allowed into a very personal spot of their faith and belief. Nothing much more can be an honor to be involved in their spiritual care. This does NOT mean one has to go extreme and or change the pattern of care, as I can multi-task on many things.

R/r 911


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## Maya (Jul 13, 2009)

Well, I haven't been in that situation yet.  Do people expect you to say an actual prayer?  I was thinking more like, hold their hand and have a moment of silence.  I wouldn't make something up that I didn't mean, but I don't think it would be the time to explain that I don't believe in God either.  I don't think it would really even matter to them anyway, since it's not about me.


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## johnrsemt (Jul 13, 2009)

I have had patients ask me to pray with them, both quietly and outloud.  I have had them ask me to give them a moment of silence so that they and/or their family could say a prayer.    and I have had patients ask me to say a prayer for them.

  the first two I do if I can, with what I need to do for them.   
 the third one I do as I can;   if patient is stable and I am not doing anything I will bow my head and say a prayer out loud,  If I can't do that I will say one out loud while I am doing what I need to do.

   I have never had anyone get upset at me, even though I may pray differently than they do.        

  had many people thank me for it afterwards.


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## Sasha (Jul 13, 2009)

> How do you pray, if you don't believe? Are you just saying empty words?



Are your words somehow magical and more comforting because you are a Christian? How is the patient to know your religion or lack of thereof?


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## MendoEMT (Jul 13, 2009)

Only ever had a couple of people want me to pray with them, I find it more common to have a family member wanting to say a prayer, which is fine as long as I can still do my job.


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## PapaBear434 (Jul 13, 2009)

One of my favorite quotes from Futurama.

http://www.gotfuturama.com/Multimedia/EpisodeSounds/3ACV20/07.mp3


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## subliminal1284 (Jul 13, 2009)

PapaBear434 said:


> One of my favorite quotes from Futurama.
> 
> http://www.gotfuturama.com/Multimedia/EpisodeSounds/3ACV20/07.mp3



Link fail.


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## subliminal1284 (Jul 13, 2009)

The patient has no way of knowing if they are empty words or not and if its going to help them feel more at ease and its not going to interupt your patient care then why not.


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## Maya (Jul 13, 2009)

Quoting Futurama in the original German?

I think RidRyder meant maybe because it's insincere or condescending, but it's not meant that way.  I think it's more like trying to speak Spanish when you go to visit a Spanish-speaking country.  I might not believe in what someone else believes, but I can try to be compassionate and have a sense of the humanity of their situation.  Whether or not either one of us believes in God, we're both human and face the same issues in our lives.  We've just come to different conclusions.


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## JonTullos (Jul 13, 2009)

I don't see how this could do any harm.  My stance would be as long as the patient is stable and I'm not in the middle of an assessment I'll be glad to pray with them or for them.  But I should point out that I'm a Christian and I live in Mississippi... I know attitudes vary from region to region.

My question:  Are there any agencies that, while they can't have a rule against it (due to Constitution and all that), frown upon any kind of religion being involved?


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## EMTinNEPA (Jul 13, 2009)

In my eyes, prayer is a ridiculous and ego-centric concept.  To those of you who pray: do you not find any type of issue with asking the creator of the ENTIRE UNIVERSE to grant you a personal favor.  The idea of prayer is an extension of human ego, of the old ideas that the universe revolves around us, when the reality is that we are small and insignificant.  So small and insignificant, that the creator of the universe granting us a wish would be akin to a conscious sun granting a wish to a single bacterium on the ocean floor.

Patient asks me to pray with them?  Simple... I just say I can't, I have a job to do.  And then I set about either ACTUALLY helping the patient, or just looking busy.


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## DV_EMT (Jul 13, 2009)

Its simple for me.

I don't necessarily pray with someone if they ask me to. But every person that "potentially could die" I pray for their souls. To us as EMT's, A life is the most important thing to save. If you can't save their life, try to help save their soul's by saying a short prayer over them (usually silent).

** note I am catholic and believe that everyone -- no matter who or what they believe -- need prayers because they are going through their own problems in life.

...but that's just me. Anyone else have any variations of this that they do?


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## Ped101 (Jul 13, 2009)

I have prayed before with patients, regardless of my religious afiliation, i think it is like someone said before: I am there for the patient's comfort, not my own.


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## JonTullos (Jul 13, 2009)

EMTinNEPA said:


> In my eyes, prayer is a ridiculous and ego-centric concept.  To those of you who pray: do you not find any type of issue with asking the creator of the ENTIRE UNIVERSE to grant you a personal favor.  The idea of prayer is an extension of human ego, of the old ideas that the universe revolves around us, when the reality is that we are small and insignificant.  So small and insignificant, that the creator of the universe granting us a wish would be akin to a conscious sun granting a wish to a single bacterium on the ocean floor.
> 
> Patient asks me to pray with them?  Simple... I just say I can't, I have a job to do.  And then I set about either ACTUALLY helping the patient, or just looking busy.



If you would like to really talk about this, PM me and I'll be glad to talk in private about it.


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## DV_EMT (Jul 13, 2009)

JonTullos said:


> If you would like to really talk about this, PM me and I'll be glad to talk in private about it.



ah yeah.... its going down haha


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## mmorsepfd (Jul 13, 2009)

My beliefs are so strong they blend with my patients beliefs so that whatever happens in the back of my rescue is a highly emotionioal, spiritual moment for both, where both patient and provider are satisfied.

It doesn't happen often, but when it does I  feel the presence of god with us. 

Just for the record, my definition of god is irrelevant here. It just is, and it works for everybody in their own way.


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## PapaBear434 (Jul 13, 2009)

Wow, I do fail at the link.  I swear, it worked when I posted it.  The gist of it was with Fry and a priest in Futurama, when Bender was lost floating around space.

_Fry: So, is there anything religion can do to help me find my friend?

Priest: Well, we could join together in prayer.

Fry: Ok, is there anything USEFUL you can do?

Priest: (*looking down sheepishly*) Um... No._


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## Ridryder911 (Jul 13, 2009)

What I have found is though, the majority of people are very ignorant of religion and even what Christianity is. In fact, religion is just much more than Christianity. 

As well, very few always to attempt to decipher on how things are reminds me of those attempting to tell me how EMS is after 150 class. Very few have ever taken a formal class in Theology or Biblical studies and or World Religion. All based upon their own anecdotal experiences and their interpretation of what the __You fill in the name __religious book said. When in fact, most very few have read  Biblical text or ever had anyone really explain in what it meant at the time it was written. 

For example the comment about prayer. If regarded to Christianity, again it the whole intent is not as stated. 

Prayer is a dialogue between you and your higher power. That's it. An acknowledgement to of inner discussion and maybe even meditation of being able to understand or release of problems. It can take many forms and one should not (alike EMS) label... just because this is how they were taught. 

R/r 911


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## usafmedic45 (Jul 13, 2009)

> What I have found is though, the majority of people are very ignorant of religion and even what Christianity is.



I find a lot of people are very ignorant of _their own religion_ let alone those they don't believe in.  This ignorance- or rather conscientious stupidity- is a leading cause of death in a lot of the world.  It also leads to a whole bunch more non-fatal misunderstandings that could be avoided simply by having a less reactionary and more "The religion is not the most important thing, how it is applied is what matters". 



> In fact, religion is just much more than Christianity.



Careful Rid, you're awful close to Texas and they will lynch you for that sort of thing.  We all know that in Texas there are only two kinds of people:  Christians and terrorists.  

BTW, before anyone flames me, that was meant as a joke and I don't believe it in the slightest.


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## Maya (Jul 13, 2009)

usafmedic45 said:


> We all know that in Texas there are only two kinds of people:  Christians and terrorists.



ROFL!  That's hilarious!


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## medichopeful (Jul 13, 2009)

EMTinNEPA said:


> In my eyes, prayer is a ridiculous and ego-centric concept.  To those of you who pray: do you not find any type of issue with asking the creator of the ENTIRE UNIVERSE to grant you a personal favor.  The idea of prayer is an extension of human ego, of the old ideas that the universe revolves around us, when the reality is that we are small and insignificant.  So small and insignificant, that the creator of the universe granting us a wish would be akin to a conscious sun granting a wish to a single bacterium on the ocean floor.



So what?  If it helps people get through a tough time, so be it.  Why is it necessary to say that prayer is "ridiculous"?  No need to be condescending.

I rarely pray (Unitarian Universalist here), but I have no problem being around someone who is praying.  At times, I have joined in when people pray, but only when I am able to do it in way that will not offend anybody.  Religion is a touchy subject.

When I enter the field of EMS, I don't think I would have any problem helping somebody pray, as long as it didn't hurt the patient.  I don't know if I would be able to lead a prayer, though, as it is not in my background.  I would probably have to figure something out if anybody asked me to lead them in prayer.

Eric


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## akflightmedic (Jul 13, 2009)

Tell a Christian he is an atheist...when he is shocked and says oh no I am not...ask him why he does not believe in all the other gods known and accepted in this massive world...then tell him that you are of the same belief...only you believe in one less god than he does for the same reasons he disbelieves the others.


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## Aidey (Jul 13, 2009)

If the pt is non critical and the family/friends etc on scene wants to say a prayer with the pt I'm ok with it. 

I've only been asked twice to pray with a patient and I side stepped the issue by smiling and saying "Let me take care of your body right now, and when we get to the hospital I'll have them call the chaplain for you, how does that sound?" 

Both of them said something like "that would be nice, thank you" or whatever. 

Basically, I'm a fairly strong atheist and it makes my skin crawl to pray, or even pretend to. I also feel like it's incredibly disrespectful to the person to pretend or try and fake it. Especially if they expect you to say something out loud, which I would fail at miserably. By passing the issue off to the chaplain, I know the patient is not going to be offended because I said something wrong, and they can pray with someone who at the very least believes in some sort of higher power.


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## akflightmedic (Jul 14, 2009)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090714/ap_on_he_me/eu_med_heart_transplant

Science is awesome!


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## EMTinNEPA (Jul 14, 2009)

medichopeful said:


> So what?  If it helps people get through a tough time, so be it.  Why is it necessary to say that prayer is "ridiculous"?  No need to be condescending.



Because there is no reason to think or believe that it even helps in a tough time.  Delusional thinking will do nothing for you.  Why do you think atheists, agnostics, deists, etc. get through tough times in life without praying?

Let's look at the Wizard of Oz as a freethinkers' parable.  The Scarecrow desperately wants a brain, the Tin Man desperately wants a heart, the Cowardly Lion desperately wants courage, and Dorothy desperately wants a way home.  So they go on a great journey to see this mythical being, which in the end turns out to be a bunch of smoke, and mirrors, and trickery.  However, when they don't have to rely on a greater power to give them things they want, they look at things from a different perspective... and they realize that they had what they wanted inside of them all along.

To me, it's much more constructive and meaningful to find the will to survive and get through the rough times within yourself... it's a tribute to the power of human tenacity and will.  The fact that nonbelievers, who don't pray, yet somehow still survive rough times, shows that even if God does exist, he already gave us everything we need to get by.  The medium of prayer isn't needed.  We have the power within us already, divine or not.


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## akflightmedic (Jul 14, 2009)

EMTinNEPA said:


> Because there is no reason to think or believe that it even helps in a tough time.  Delusional thinking will do nothing for you.  Why do you think atheists, agnostics, deists, etc. get through tough times in life without praying?
> 
> Let's look at the Wizard of Oz as a freethinkers' parable.  The Scarecrow desperately wants a brain, the Tin Man desperately wants a heart, the Cowardly Lion desperately wants courage, and Dorothy desperately wants a way home.  So they go on a great journey to see this mythical being, which in the end turns out to be a bunch of smoke, and mirrors, and trickery.  However, when they don't have to rely on a greater power to give them things they want, they look at things from a different perspective... and they realize that they had what they wanted inside of them all along.
> 
> To me, it's much more constructive and meaningful to find the will to survive and get through the rough times within yourself... it's a tribute to the power of human tenacity and will.  The fact that nonbelievers, who don't pray, yet somehow still survive rough times, shows that even if God does exist, he already gave us everything we need to get by.  The medium of prayer isn't needed.  We have the power within us already, divine or not.



But, but....it is soooo much easier to attribute all the bad things to a higher power, surely it must be it's will because it could never be because of choices I made or did not make.

And then all the good things are because I am special and my one prayer was answered but I need to remain humble and again grant that to someone else and not recognize my smart decision or all my hard work; it's easier to remain humble that way and look more pious to others when retelling the tale.

On another note regarding prayer, watch football teams pray before the game...both teams are praying, hmmm someone has to lose and why should he care about this one team above others? After the game, you will hear the winning QB or coach thank god, but for some reason you never hear the losing team say "god just thought the other team was better I guess". Also you never hear the winning team say BEFORE the game...We WILL win cause god is on our side...they only have the ability to say that after knowing the outcome of the game...ironic, no?

Do not even get me started about prayer on the battlefield...come on man, you are praying to god to help you slaughter other men who believe in the same god????


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## Ridryder911 (Jul 14, 2009)

Again a poor analogy and again misconception of what prayer is all about. One should not be praying for their purpose but rather to understand and be faithful to what His purpose. Again another myth and so what is always protrayed wrongly from ignorance of those that do not understand faith, NO where in the Christian philosophy does it not describe "bad " things do not occur or will prevent you from having them. As in again,the faith will be able to cope and handle things differently by Grace. 

Prayer has never been a "wish book" even that is what percieved by many or those was never taught properly. We may ask but it should be understood "Thy will be done". 

Football games should not be "prayed" for whom to win but to do os without injury and to have fun and learn sportsmanship.

R/r 911


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## Seaglass (Jul 14, 2009)

As long as it won't detract from treatment, I'm fine with praying with a patient. But if they want to know about my own religious beliefs, I'm not going to get into detail. You never know when that conversation's going to turn ugly, and that's not something I want to deal with in the back of an ambulance. If they want someone of a specific faith, I'll be glad to see what I can do about finding a chaplain...


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## Sasha (Jul 14, 2009)

I don't think either religion thread was created to bash anyone's beliefs. I guess it's too much to expect health care professionals to maintain civil and open minded during a discussion and not to take potshots at another's beliefs.


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## akflightmedic (Jul 14, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> Again another myth and so what is always protrayed wrongly from ignorance of those that do not understand faith, NO where in the Christian philosophy does it not describe "bad " things do not occur or will prevent you from having them.
> 
> Football games should not be "prayed" for whom to win but to do os without injury and to have fun and learn sportsmanship.R/r 911



How ignorant to assume I do not understand faith. I study religion more than your average weekend churchgoer because it fascinates me, most atheists are more knowledgeable in religion than those who claim to be of a certain belief or faith...and that is because we seek knowledge and we are ok with questioning everything and asking why or how. I have shelves and shelves of books on all kinds of religion, "holy" books and scores of websites dedicated to the subject because it is my hobby. I like to hear all sides and formulate my own opinions.

Having said that, I have never been in the presence of a religious leader who did not ask for things in prayer. These are the guys who went to seminary school and practice/live the faith every day. I have a couple preacher friends as well (great conversations at dinner parties), I have attended services of many denominations in many different states. I have stepped outside the box and at no time did any of these leaders subscribe to what you just wrote about Rid. You know I got respect for you but I think you are now claiming they are all ignorant cause they do indeed do on a regular basis what you said no educated person of faith would do.

As for the football games, instead of praying for no injuries, wouldn't proper training and conditioning prevent the majority of them? Wouldn't a good coach and a positive family environment bring out or educate one in proper sportsmanship? And the fun...well if you have to pray to have fun, choose another hobby.


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## mycrofft (Jul 14, 2009)

*Well, being "athe-gnostic"...*

1. Can't hurt as long as you are still working the BVM.
2. I don't know of any religion that forbids people of other religions (or without a current one) to pray for their members, as long as it is sincere.

Me, I've bowed my head out of respect and a couple times and thought the agnostics' prayer: "Hey, if you're really there, heads up, here comes a good one".


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## akflightmedic (Jul 14, 2009)

mycrofft said:


> 1. Can't hurt as long as you are still working the BVM.
> 2. I don't know of any religion that forbids people of other religions (or without a current one) to pray for their members, as long as it is sincere.
> 
> Me, I've bowed my head out of respect and a couple times and thought the agnostics' prayer: "Hey, if you're really there, heads up, here comes a good one".



Shakes head...Pascal's Wager...sigh


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## Momof7 (Jul 15, 2009)

Yes, I would and I have prayed with a Pt. I have only done it once and I asked him if he wanted me to pray with him. He was freaking out so bad thought he was going to die and said yes. I prayed for healing and that if he had never excepted Jesus as his savior that he would do that in his heart before he died. Well, he did not die but was greatful for if nothing else the comfort he got knowing that I cared enough to pray with him.


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## firecoins (Jul 15, 2009)

Epi-do said:


> Sasha's post got me thinking, especially regarding those of you who stated you are athiests, do you pray with your patient if s/he asks you to do so?  What about if you are religious, but your patient appears to have vastly different beliefs than yourself?  If not, what do you say to them?  If they go ahead and pray without you, do respect their wish to do so, and give them a moment of silence?


I will do it for my patient.  Rarely do I get asked.


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## Momof7 (Jul 15, 2009)

I agree, although I do not believe the same as you, We should all be civil. I also wanted to say that I didn't mean that just because you don't believe in God that you have no morals. Or that I am perfect because that is really almost laughable. I am the farthest thing from perfect!! I am a sinner like everyone else. It's kinda like I don't believe in abortion, but I also don't think an abotionest should be shot either. I don't agree with you and you don't agree with me lets just agree to disagree.


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## firecoins (Jul 15, 2009)

> I also wanted to say that I didn't mean that just because you don't believe in God that you have no morals.


 Good. As an atheist, I believe morals do not come from any particlar God.  Many religions claim different Gods.  Christians can be moral without believing in Zeus. 



> I am a sinner like everyone else.


I don't believe your a sinner nor is everyone else.   



> It's kinda like I don't believe in abortion, but I also don't think an abortionest should be shot either.





Momof7 said:


> We should all be civil.


They should also not be stabbed, punched, kicked, assaulted or harassed.  No violence should be done at all.


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## akflightmedic (Jul 15, 2009)

Momof7 said:


> I am a sinner like everyone else.



Another argument that is tiresome...No, I am NOT a sinner.

You are projecting your beliefs on me and others who are not of the same faith simply because this is what YOU believe.

You telling me I am bad and justifying it by saying you are bad too is poor form.

By making bold statements such as what you did, indicates a very narrow, limited view/approach on life. It is the same as when another poster (Rid) I believe, stated he was sad for us. Why be sad? I'm not...I have a very happy rewarding life. My children are very intelligent, loving beings who have a respect and tolerance for all views of life. They have learned to appreciate people for who they are and that by far is more valuable than automatically excluding types that do not conform or believe as yourself.


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## Momof7 (Jul 15, 2009)

firecoins said:


> Good. As an atheist, I believe morals do not come from any particlar God.  Many religions claim different Gods.  Christians can be moral without believing in Zeus.
> 
> I don't believe your a sinner nor is everyone else.
> 
> ...



I agree completly.


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## Momof7 (Jul 15, 2009)

What I ment to say is that I agree that abortionist should not be treated as you stated above.


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## Momof7 (Jul 15, 2009)

Sorry, I guess I didn't think. I guess it only makes sense that if you don't believe in God you wouln'd believe in sin either.  

So maybe I will be safe in saying this... I believe that I am a sinner because I believe that what the Bible says is true. The Bible say  "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"  And none of this should offend you because you can believe it or not. If you choose to not believe it then it is no skin off your nose. It's the people who do believe in God but may not know what God says about sin that may get their feathers ruffled.


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## HotelCo (Jul 15, 2009)

Sure, I would pray with them, whatever their religion may be.


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## Shishkabob (Jul 15, 2009)

Of course.


It won't take any more then 30 seconds of your time, and if they ask you to say something, just spin it around and say "I'm sure you can phrase it better".


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## HotelCo (Jul 15, 2009)

Even if they ask me if I believe that when they die, they will turn into a tire. If they believe that, I won't say anything against it. While they're my patient, that isn't the time for me to try and convert them to what I believe. My role is to take care of them.


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## EMT-G36C (Jul 15, 2009)

Aidey said:


> If the pt is non critical and the family/friends etc on scene wants to say a prayer with the pt I'm ok with it.
> 
> I've only been asked twice to pray with a patient and I side stepped the issue by smiling and saying "Let me take care of your body right now, and when we get to the hospital I'll have them call the chaplain for you, how does that sound?"
> 
> ...



I like this answer, as my religious beliefs conflict with a most other religious views.

As a follower of the left hand path, i cant bring myself to pray to God,Jehovah,Yahweh,Krishna,Allah, etc.

It goes against my beliefs, and I too believe it would be more disrespectful to pretend to care about that.

I will hold their hand and bow my head, or give them a moment with their family if they request it.   But that's it.

I like the Chaplain idea.


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## EMT-G36C (Jul 15, 2009)

HotelCo said:


> Even if they ask me if I believe that when they die, they will turn into a tire. If they believe that, I won't say anything against it. While they're my patient, that isn't the time for me to try and convert them to what I believe. My role is to take care of them.




This too. 

I may not believe in your god(s), but in a pt./provider setting I will never disrespect your beliefs, or try to have a big theological argument.

I am there to help, not preach the evils of religion.

You do what you must to feel better, I'll try my best to make that happen.

If you want to believe it's our deity working through me, awesome.


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## Sasha (Jul 15, 2009)

If bowing your head with them while they pray or during a moment of silence helps them, i don't see how it's offensive. How are they to know your religion or lack thereof to be offended, anyway? We atheists do not wear giant scarlett coloured A's on our shirts.


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## Shishkabob (Jul 15, 2009)

Of course you do.... you lack a halo!


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## akflightmedic (Jul 15, 2009)

Sasha said:


> If bowing your head with them while they pray or during a moment of silence helps them, i don't see how it's offensive. How are they to know your religion or lack thereof to be offended, anyway? We atheists do not wear giant scarlett coloured A's on our shirts.



I do not bow my head ever Sasha and it is not stubbornness. I will be silent as there are moments where silence should be regarded, but to bow ones head when someone else prays to their god is offensive to me. It is not being true to myself. Why must I "appear" to be of their same belief? I do my best to not ever be a hypocrite as it is one thing I truly detest and for me to bow a head in a prayer setting is hypocritical.

The person already has a direct link to his god for assistance, I will do what I can in the truck but when it comes to the prayer aspect, they really shouldn't need me or try to involve me...


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## djmedic913 (Jul 15, 2009)

I am an athiest. and definately anti-religion. I'm not gonna get into a theological discussion in this thread over any of this.

If my Pt is critical they can pray or whatever but I will be busy treating...

If my Pt is stable enough and wishes me to pray with them, I have bowed my head while they pray. I look at it this way, if it helps my Pt then why not. I don't pray or say anything, not even amen, but I will give them the respect to help themselves feel better.

I still try to get my patients to laugh. I usually use corny jokes or something. I still believe laughter is the best medicine, for anyone capable of laughing.


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## Sasha (Jul 15, 2009)

I don't see it as being dishonet to yourself, rather dealing with the mental aspect of your patient's care. If it will help them feel better, more positively, then so be it! I am not so insecure in my beliefs that I feel bowing my head for a moment to help a patient would compromise that.


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## Shishkabob (Jul 15, 2009)

djmedic913 said:


> and definately anti-religion.



I understand being atheist.. but anti-religion?  You're against people having organized beliefs different from yours?  Or did you just phrase that wrong?


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## CAOX3 (Jul 15, 2009)

Nope.  Praying with someone isnt an aspect of my job.  I cant ever remember ever being asked to.


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## djmedic913 (Jul 15, 2009)

Linuss said:


> I understand being atheist.. but anti-religion?  You're against people having organized beliefs different from yours?  Or did you just phrase that wrong?



Nope, I phrased it correctly. I am not against the people but the organized religion and their rules. If you would like to discuss this further PM me. But I don't want to hijack this thread with my opinions on theology.


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## EMT-G36C (Jul 15, 2009)

akflightmedic said:


> I do not bow my head ever Sasha and it is not stubbornness. I will be silent as there are moments where silence should be regarded, but to bow ones head when someone else prays to their god is offensive to me. It is not being true to myself. Why must I "appear" to be of their same belief? I do my best to not ever be a hypocrite as it is one thing I truly detest and for me to bow a head in a prayer setting is hypocritical.
> 
> The person already has a direct link to his god for assistance, I will do what I can in the truck but when it comes to the prayer aspect, they really shouldn't need me or try to involve me...



We seem to be cut from the same cloth sir!

However, I do bow my head for a few reasons.

A.) If it helps them and I'm not busy, why not?

My beliefs basically revolve around Thelema and things of that nature, aka "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law". I want to provide the best care for my pt., and if it helps, screw it.

B.) I keep my religion out of my work. 

Again, for pt. sake. Reason A is more for me, as it allows me to help them better, and makes me better at my job. B is for them. My job is my life. I am willing to suspend my beliefs for the 13 hours I work if it makes me better at helping my pt. I may hate your gods and their rules, but if it helps you more than I can, go nuts. I will act liek I respect it.

(Basically the same points the more I think about it, but whatever.)

C.) If you dont bow your head they can see you snicker!  :lol::lol::lol:


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## Ridryder911 (Jul 15, 2009)

akflightmedic said:


> I do not bow my head ever Sasha and it is not stubbornness. I will be silent as there are moments where silence should be regarded, but to bow ones head when someone else prays to their god is offensive to me. It is not being true to myself. Why must I "appear" to be of their same belief? I do my best to not ever be a hypocrite as it is one thing I truly detest and for me to bow a head in a prayer setting is hypocritical.
> 
> The person already has a direct link to his god for assistance, I will do what I can in the truck but when it comes to the prayer aspect, they really shouldn't need me or try to involve me...



Usually AK we agree, but this point I believe I am going to have to disagree with you. Again EMS lack of medical education comes through; understanding that the patients spiritual need is just important sometimes as their physical ones. Especially more cultures, than others. Again, one of the few medical professions that ignores the basics of understanding holistic care.

We do not educate Paramedics or those within EMS how important those items are and acknowledging them. We should attempt to accommodate them when and if possible. Especially on simplistic acts. Remember, it is really about them and not your personal beliefs or ideologies. Acknowledging is not a sign of weakness rather allowing them their ability to express part of their psyche and emotional needs. 

R/r 911


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## EMT-G36C (Jul 15, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> Usually AK we agree, but this point I believe I am going to have to disagree with you. Again EMS lack of medical education comes through; understanding that the patients spiritual need is just important sometimes as their physical ones. Especially more cultures, than others. Again, one of the few medical professions that ignores the basics of understanding holistic care.
> 
> We do not educate Paramedics or those within EMS how important those items are and acknowledging them. We should attempt to accommodate them when and if possible. Especially on simplistic acts. Remember, it is really about them and not your personal beliefs or ideologies. Acknowledging is not a sign of weakness rather allowing them their ability to express part of their psyche and emotional needs.
> 
> R/r 911


I actually agree with this. Hard.

I hate religion, but EMS is not about your wants or needs. It's about the pt.


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## djmedic913 (Jul 15, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> Usually AK we agree, but this point I believe I am going to have to disagree with you. Again EMS lack of medical education comes through; understanding that the patients spiritual need is just important sometimes as their physical ones. Especially more cultures, than others. Again, one of the few medical professions that ignores the basics of understanding holistic care.
> 
> We do not educate Paramedics or those within EMS how important those items are and acknowledging them. We should attempt to accommodate them when and if possible. Especially on simplistic acts. Remember, it is really about them and not your personal beliefs or ideologies. Acknowledging is not a sign of weakness rather allowing them their ability to express part of their psyche and emotional needs.
> 
> R/r 911



well said.  we need to learn about some of the cultures that come the home the brave and the land of the *FREE*.  

I don't know if anyone hear has ever heard of "coining" but in foreign cultures it is a normal thing to do to a child. NOT abuse, but rite of passage. we would view this is as savage and abusive. But it is their culture. Just like in some cultures your patient will never talk to you, their husband will tell you what is wrong and your patient will never speak in front of you.

yes there are lines and things like coining are dancing that line but things they have done to the chinese girls, like boxing their toes (I think that is what it is called) and sewing up their vaginas...is waaaaaaaaaaay too far over that line


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## Shishkabob (Jul 15, 2009)

Abuse is abuse is abuse.  I don't give a darn what their old countries practices were, our laws are quite clear.  You live in America, you go by American laws.


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## usafmedic45 (Jul 15, 2009)

Wow I just lost a little respect for you.  Even when I was an atheist, I never saw organized religions and their rules if you choose to participate as any different from joining a club or belonging to the professions.  If you choose to believe/belong/work/etc for a given group, then you play by the rules.  If not, what does it matter what they require those to do.  To me it is no different than my saying I hate California EMS simply because I choose not to jump through 50 million hoops to work as a basic EMT when most states don't have those standards.  I may shake my head and laugh at how ridiculous it is, but some people choose to believe that it's worth the trade-off so to each and to their own.  

Why should you care or even bother paying attention to the "rules" of things you don't believe in?  I'd like to hear an explanation on that one.  If you can't express it better than you have thus far, I'm afraid you are risking continuing to look like a xenophobic hypocrite which I sincerely hope you are not.


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## djmedic913 (Jul 15, 2009)

usafmedic45 said:


> Wow I just lost a little respect for you.  Even when I was an atheist, I never saw organized religions and their rules if you choose to participate as any different from joining a club or belonging to the professions.  If you choose to believe/belong/work/etc for a given group, then you play by the rules.  If not, what does it matter what they require those to do.  To me it is no different than my saying I hate California EMS simply because I choose not to jump through 50 million hoops to work as a basic EMT when most states don't have those standards.  I may shake my head and laugh at how ridiculous it is, but some people choose to believe that it's worth the trade-off so to each and to their own.
> 
> Why should you care or even bother paying attention to the "rules" of things you don't believe in?  I'd like to hear an explanation on that one.  If you can't express it better than you have thus far, I'm afraid you are risking continuing to look like a xenophobic hypocrite which I sincerely hope you are not.



who is this directed at?


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## EMT-G36C (Jul 15, 2009)

I was kind of wondering that too lol


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## usafmedic45 (Jul 15, 2009)

> I don't know if anyone hear has ever heard of "coining" but in foreign cultures it is a normal thing to do to a child. NOT abuse, but rite of passage. we would view this is as savage and abusive. But it is their culture



Have you ever actually seen it in person?  I have seen it as I know a lot of Vietnamese and Cambodian families.   It sounds like you're just being intolerant since every reputable journal (JAMA for example: http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/244/24/2748)  that has written on the subject has described it as non-harmful.  The attitude you're espousing is blamed for one of the major issues that hampers public health and integration: physician distrust because of perceived or actual misplaced criticism of clinical practices. 




> like boxing their toes (I think that is what it is called)



It's called foot binding.  BTW, it's actually now illegal to do that, even in China (where it's been illegal since the 1910s).  In fact, it's one of the many things that will get you executed over there.



> home the brave and the land of the FREE.



Contrary to what you seem to believe, that cuts both ways there.  If it is the land of the free and a practice isn't hurting anyone, then who are you or I to tell them they can't do it.   I would seriously be quiet before you make yourself look like a racist bigot of questionable intellect.  



> Abuse is abuse is abuse. I don't give a darn what their old countries practices were, our laws are quite clear.



Yes, but just because we don't agree with a practice does not make it abuse.  If it is not harming the recipient, then it's not abuse even if ignorant people think it should be.


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## usafmedic45 (Jul 15, 2009)

It was directed as a response to your post:



> Nope, I phrased it correctly. I am not against the people but the organized religion and their rules.


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## Shishkabob (Jul 15, 2009)

usafmedic45 said:


> Yes, but just because we don't agree with a practice does not make it abuse.  If it is not harming the recipient, then it's not abuse even if ignorant people think it should be.



I didn't say something was / was not harming someone.

The definition of abuse is harm.   That's all I was stating with that reply.


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## usafmedic45 (Jul 15, 2009)

Linuss said:


> I didn't say something was / was not harming someone.
> 
> The definition of abuse is harm.   That's all I was stating with that reply.


I know....I didn't figure you were taking an "if it's not American as apple pie, it's abuse" stance.  From you, I expect better.


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## Meursault (Jul 15, 2009)

djmedic913 said:


> ignorant rambling



If anything, I suspect you need to learn a bit more about the cultures that come to America. Foot-binding hasn't been practiced much, if at all, for quite a long time, and I doubt ever in the US. Female genital mutilation is an African problem. As other posters have pointed out, coining is not abuse.






For everyone who's interested in the effects of cultural context on medical care, I recommend Anne Fadiman's _The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down_. It was required reading in one of my courses; it's thought-provoking and accessible, and it includes one account of a paramedic entirely baffled by miscommunication.


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## usafmedic45 (Jul 15, 2009)

> I recommend Anne Fadiman's The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down



Actually that is exactly the last book you need to be recommending.  It spins the issue completely from the stance DJMedic is taking to the opposite of how care of the child be damned, being politically correct is the true measure of quality care.  The parents were not simply exercising their beliefs but hindering the care of the patient in a way that would have gotten the kid immediately removed from their custody if they were Jehovah's witnesses, etc.  I posted a review of the book on another forum I belong to: 



> I feel the need to point out the worst book ever recommended to premeds, because if I don't some bleeding heart little dipwad will come in here and post about how it is such a great book......the book? The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down......
> 
> It is the most worthless piece of bleeding heart, politically correct bull**** I have ever had the displeasure or reading. It's the sort of thing that aggregiously affluent white suburbanites read in order to make themselves feel better about their shallow existence and to feel superior because the "understand" the plight of the "poor" Hmong family. It's the liberal equivalent of masturbation since it benefits no one else but themselves- it certainly doesn't benefit pediatric patients to allow the ignorance, stupidity or just plain backwardness of their parents to cost them their health and/or their lives....all so we don't offend someone and can be "culturally sensitive".
> 
> ...


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## akflightmedic (Jul 15, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> Usually AK we agree, but this point I believe I am going to have to disagree with you. Again EMS lack of medical education comes through; understanding that the patients spiritual need is just important sometimes as their physical ones. Especially more cultures, than others. Again, one of the few medical professions that ignores the basics of understanding holistic care.
> 
> We do not educate Paramedics or those within EMS how important those items are and acknowledging them. We should attempt to accommodate them when and if possible. Especially on simplistic acts. Remember, it is really about them and not your personal beliefs or ideologies. Acknowledging is not a sign of weakness rather allowing them their ability to express part of their psyche and emotional needs.
> 
> R/r 911



I know we disagree in this area as we have had this discussion a time or two over the years we have known each other. I acknowledge their need to pray by remaining silent, there is no need to bow my head. I will hold their hand, I will assist them in getting other people's help if time and situation allows...however there is absolutely no need for me to bow my head as if I am of their faith. It is not my place to tend to their spiritual needs, it is my position to allow them to do what they need and facilitate it by arranging something if possible, but being a part of it is not "my lane".

If you disagree with any of that, know that I will mention all the other "small" tasks that some medical providers refuse to do based on their christian beliefs, (i.e handing out pills when it is your job, handing out pamphlets or even discussing alternative therapies for many various conditions including pregnancy, or even simply providing a referral). These are all simple tasks and part of one's job, praying has never been a part of my job nor will it ever be.

I know you may counter with those are not small tasks, but I do not want to go off too far on that tangent but I do feel it is relevant enough to mention.

I am not a militant hard *** atheist but I do have to protect my liberties as well. I will not compromise my "beliefs" for someone else to feel better, but I will as I said earlier give them the tools to do so.

I made a decision once before to be a hypocrite so to speak and Rid, I know you remember my story of the baby I baptized in the ambulance. For those new to this story as it is not one I share often, it was a needed hypocritical moment of mine based on that day and that situation and I as an atheist baptized a child I had just delivered moments before he died. The mom carried the child to term knowing it would die shortly after birth due to several genetic issues, however she did not inform me of this. The child was also breech delivery. Within minutes after delivery, the child started to decompensate and went into respiratory arrest. This was when the parents informed me of the expected outcome, with both of them there in back of the rig and both of them crying because they did not intend on an ambulance delivery (her 4th child), they asked me to baptize their child. I got the sterile water out, said a few things, they said a few things and wha lah, everything was magical and I could now tend to the mother since we were pulling up on the ramp of the ER and the OB team was there waiting to grab the child.

This was a critical life and death situation and being familiar with their beliefs, I knew it to be very important to them, this was a moment that could never be redone. I do not extend this same courtesy to all my drama codes or even run of the mill stable patients that wish for me to pray with them. As I said, they already have the direct link and they do not need me for a power source.


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## djmedic913 (Jul 15, 2009)

usafmedic45 said:


> Have you ever actually seen it in person?  I have seen it as I know a lot of Vietnamese and Cambodian families.   It sounds like you're just being intolerant since every reputable journal (JAMA for example: http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/244/24/2748)  that has written on the subject has described it as non-harmful.  The attitude you're espousing is blamed for one of the major issues that hampers public health and integration: physician distrust because of perceived or actual misplaced criticism of clinical practices.



I think there may have been a mistake in communication (or I made a typo) I was coining as an example of different cultural practices that appear to be abusive and 1st viewed thru the eyes of the _intolerant_ American. But was trying to point out that even in this country that coining is not considered abuse. That as _intolerant_ Americans we will jump to conclusions before finding out the truth in reference to other cultures.  I was actually being tolerant, myself. or attempting to be any ways. I was in no way condemning them for this.





usafmedic45 said:


> It's called foot binding.  BTW, it's actually now illegal to do that, even in China (where it's been illegal since the 1910s).  In fact, it's one of the many things that will get you executed over there.


 Thank you for the correction. I couldn't remember the true name of it. but alas, sometimes even if it is illegal does not mean it still isn't being done. But I do agree with the penalty for inflicting that torture.




usafmedic45 said:


> Contrary to what you seem to believe, that cuts both ways there.  If it is the land of the free and a practice isn't hurting anyone, then who are you or I to tell them they can't do it.   I would seriously be quiet before you make yourself look like a racist bigot of questionable intellect.


Again I believe a miss communication or miss interpretation has occurred. I used the _land of the free_ statement as a point. Since the United States of America prides itself as land of the free. that many people from many other countries still flock here to make a better life for themselves and their families. And they bring their culture with them. A culture we don't know about or understand because Americans refuse to educate themselves about anything further than the nose on their faces. I used to live in Canada and they would frequently run segments on TV asking Canadians about America (government, history, etc) and the Canadians new the answers. They would then cut to Americans being asked similar questions about Canada (And for those who are unaware Canada is a country to the north of us :wacko and the Americans new nothing of their own neighboring country.


So I hope this clears up some of the issues you had with my posting. It was not to sound or be racist in any way. just meant to point out how ignorant and intolerable Americans are and can be.


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## usafmedic45 (Jul 15, 2009)

> I was in no way condemning them for this.



Then you need to learn to make that clearer or you'll shoot yourself in the foot again. 



> So I hope this clears up some of the issues you had with my posting. It was not to sound or be racist in any way. just meant to point out how ignorant and intolerable Americans are and can be.



OK....I only said what I did because for a moment you sounded like the narcissistic "American is the only country that matters" sociopath that is my soon-to-be father-in-law.  The only difference is that he's got his own little perverted form of Catholicism (he's such an extremist he's been excommunicated three times) he clings to as opposed to your atheism. I have zero tolerance for bigotry and will fight vehemently against anyone who espouses it.


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## djmedic913 (Jul 15, 2009)

usafmedic45 said:


> I have zero tolerance for bigotry and will fight vehemently against anyone who espouses it.



This I completely agree with.  As for organized religion and their rules...I would have to say it is their intolerance that bothers me the most about it.


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## Meursault (Jul 15, 2009)

usafmedic45 said:


> Actually that is exactly the last book you need to be recommending.  It spins the issue completely from the stance DJMedic is taking to the opposite of how care of the child be damned, being politically correct is the true measure of quality care.  The parents were not simply exercising their beliefs but hindering the care of the patient in a way that would have gotten the kid immediately removed from their custody if they were Jehovah's witnesses, etc.  I posted a review of the book on another forum I belong to:



My understanding was  that the parents were noncompliant because they didn't understand what was going on. And yes, if the issue were willful noncompliance, it would be entirely justified to remove the child from parental custody as the state tried. 





Beyond the case of the Lee kid, the issues that Fadiman discusses aren't issues of "cultural sensitivity". They're  issues of effective education, public health efforts, and delivery of care. The lesson is not that American medicine is bad for intruding upon other beliefs about health and illness, but that these beliefs exist, and that trying to ignore them compromises care and prevents informed consent. Beyond that, trying to deliver proper care without giving patients and family an understanding of what it entails alienates the family and risks noncompliance. These aren't issues that can be resolved in the course of acute care, and still less in the prehospital environment. It's a matter of health education and social work.

 Of course, now I need to reread it.


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## Shishkabob (Jul 15, 2009)

djmedic913 said:


> I would have to say it is their intolerance that bothers me the most about it.



Says the person that is anti-religion...


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## usafmedic45 (Jul 15, 2009)

Linuss said:


> Says the person that is anti-religion...


What's that saying about people often despise most in others what they like least about themselves?  




> As for organized religion and their rules...I would have to say it is their intolerance that bothers me the most about it.


Both religious people and atheists seem to be equally prone to intolerance of opposing viewpoints.


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## djmedic913 (Jul 15, 2009)

usafmedic45 said:


> Both religious people and atheists seem to be equally prone to intolerance of opposing viewpoints.



This is true as well...


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## Shishkabob (Jul 15, 2009)

usafmedic45 said:


> What's that saying about people often despise most in others what they like least about themselves?




They're being 'Linuss like'? ^_^


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## Sasha (Jul 16, 2009)

No, this article isn't EMS related.. But this is a good example at what I was trying to get at. Religion and prayer and such can be a powerful thing for those who believe. It enables them to stay calm in situations they may not otherwise. If prayer could help your patient remain calm during their emergency, why can't you just bow your head and play along? 

*Couple Held Hostage Tell Their Story*
Full Article Here:http://news.aol.com/article/hostage...com/article/hostage-couple-interviewed/573668


> The intruder tied 83-year-old Robert Belote's hands behind his back and directed the couple into their windowless bathroom, police said. Authorities said the man, William Spencer, 49, had been on a crime spree before he invaded the Belotes' home.
> 
> "I said to myself, 'This is the end. This is it,'" Frances Belote, 82, said in the interview with WJLA-TV, the ABC affiliate in Washington. *"But God was here. We felt his presence, and it gave us peace, and we were able to be calm."*


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## akflightmedic (Jul 16, 2009)

First of all, without sounding egotistical or godlike cause some may interpret it as this...I very rarely have had patients I could not calm or keep in a calm state when needed.

This is accomplished through professionalism and competence. Calmness is contagious and they pick up on our vibes; when they trust us, which is reflected by the above mentioned qualities, then they become calm.

So when the Haitian asks you to slaughter a chicken in the yard before they get in the ambulance and they need you to help, are you going to do it? When some obscure Catholic sect says he needs his medical provider to have ash on his forehead, are you going to let him smear you? Why not? It is for the patient's spiritual needs, no?

As I said, if they need prayer, there are other things I need to be doing. Besides, prayer is their personal communication with their god, I have no part of it and I will not fake it simply for the patient's benefit. You do not routinely lie to your patients do you? My actions would be me lying to the patient...


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## Sasha (Jul 16, 2009)

> You do not routinely lie to your patients do you? My actions would be me lying to the patient...



How is it lying to simply bow your head out of respect for the patient and their beliefs? Not asking you to talk to god in your head. It's a simple inclanation of your head, you're not signing yourself up to be a Christian.

And anything I could reasonably do to comfort the patient, I would. You got the ash? Smear it, I can wipe it off later.


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## akflightmedic (Jul 16, 2009)

Then I guess we agree to disagree cause to me it is wrong on a much deeper level within myself. You are asking me to compromise my inner most thoughts and belief system to accommodate a patient's wishes when simple professionalism can accomplish the same goal.

I would not ask that of you, why do you ask it of me? (rhetorical)

You would not ask one member of a certain belief to perform the action of another belief/sect/denomination, yet because one is of "no belief" you then say what is the big deal?


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## Shishkabob (Jul 16, 2009)

akflightmedic said:


> So when the Haitian asks you to slaughter a chicken in the yard before they get in the ambulance and they need you to help, are you going to do it?




Keeping your trap shut for 30 seconds can not be equated to killing an animal.  If worse comes to worst, claim health hazard (chicken blood)




> When some obscure Catholic sect says he needs his medical provider to have ash on his forehead, are you going to let him smear you? Why not? It is for the patient's spiritual needs, no?



Sure.  Takes all of 5 seconds to take a prep pad to that thing when they're gone.  Hell, after Ash Wednesday, many Christians walk around with that cross clearly shown on their head.


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## akflightmedic (Jul 16, 2009)

Linuss said:


> Keeping your trap shut for 30 seconds can not be equated to killing an animal.  If worse comes to worst, claim health hazard (chicken blood)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Where did I ever say I would not keep my trap shut as you so eloquently put it? Please re read and get back to me on that one.

Killing an animal is their religious belief as it once was for Christians and just about every other religion. So now you are telling me you will pick and choose which belief practice/ritual you will allow? So you are willing to forgo a religious practice that would benefit the patient because you do not agree to it?

Nothing will be placed on my body ever as I said previously this is their belief, not mine. I used some extreme examples but they are plausible. I would be interested in hearing what else you would allow to be done to your body all in the name of making the patient comfortable within their religious beliefs...


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## Shishkabob (Jul 16, 2009)

How is having an ash cross, a very normal Christian act, "extreme"?  Just because you are an atheist doesn't mean a well established and practed act in this country is "extreme".  


And as for the chicken, again... health hazard.  So you're arguing doing a blanket treatment for ALL patients, even if it could be detrimental to them?


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## JonTullos (Jul 16, 2009)

I find it funny that so many people judge Christians as being the intolerant ones.  Truth is, I've found that many non-Christians are more intolerant.  If we want to pray in public or hold a ceremony in a public place then someone's liable to file a lawsuit to try and stop it.  Yet, if a person of another faith wants to do the same thing and a Christian says something about it, well all of a sudden they're a bigot.  Double standard much?

The point is, most Christians (I am NOT including those nuts from the Westboro Baptist Church or other similar groups in this statement - don't get me started on them) aren't as intolerant as most people make them out to be, at least not as intolerant as others seem to be toward them.  If a Muslim wants to pray to Allah, that's their right and I won't fight them on it.  I will choose not to participate but I will also respect their beliefs.  If they want to discuss my beliefs vs. theirs, fine... but I'm not going to tell them they're a bad person or that I hate them simply because they believe differently then I do.  

To get back on track, even if you don't believe the same as the patient, what's the harm in showing them respect?  I'm not saying you have to pray with them or for them but at least respect their beliefs.  If nothing else (I believe there's more but that's me) you're helping with their mental well being and that does matter a ton.  

To each their own but at least respect the beliefs of others and don't bash them simply because they believe differently then you.


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## akflightmedic (Jul 16, 2009)

JonTullos said:


> I find it funny that so many people judge Christians as being the intolerant ones.  Truth is, I've found that many non-Christians are more intolerant.  If we want to pray in public or hold a ceremony in a public place then someone's liable to file a lawsuit to try and stop it.  Yet, if a person of another faith wants to do the same thing and a Christian says something about it, well all of a sudden they're a bigot.  Double standard much?
> 
> The point is, Christians aren't as intolerant as most people make them out to be, at least not as intolerant as others seem to be toward them.  If a Muslim wants to pray to Allah, that's their right and I won't fight them on it.  I will choose not to participate but I will also respect their beliefs.  If they want to discuss my beliefs vs. theirs, fine... but I'm not going to tell them they're a bad person or that I hate them simply because they believe differently then I do.
> 
> ...



And this is exactly what I have been saying in every post. They have my respect granted by my silence or enabling them to be with someone else if time or situation allows so that they may maintain their spirituality; at no time did I disrespect or forbid their actions.


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## Sasha (Jul 16, 2009)

JonTullos said:


> I find it funny that so many people judge Christians as being the intolerant ones.  Truth is, I've found that many non-Christians are more intolerant.  If we want to pray in public or hold a ceremony in a public place then someone's liable to file a lawsuit to try and stop it.  Yet, if a person of another faith wants to do the same thing and a Christian says something about it, well all of a sudden they're a bigot.  Double standard much?
> 
> The point is, Christians aren't as intolerant as most people make them out to be, at least not as intolerant as others seem to be toward them.  If a Muslim wants to pray to Allah, that's their right and I won't fight them on it.  I will choose not to participate but I will also respect their beliefs.  If they want to discuss my beliefs vs. theirs, fine... but I'm not going to tell them they're a bad person or that I hate them simply because they believe differently then I do.
> 
> ...




Their is intolerance in every belief system, however Christians get the stigma of being intolerant because that is what you see. I know many very wonderful Christians, but I, personally have also met a lot of intolerant religions who try to impose their beliefs and opinions, simply because "God says homosexuality is wrong". "God says abortion is wrong" "God says it's wrong not to believe in God" "God says you're going to burn in Hell, heathen!"

It's not right, and it's not fair, but people's opinions are widely shaped by their experiences, and bad apples remain more prominently in your mind then good apples.

And why is it I often hear about Christians and their pity because of my atheism? My jewish friends don't tell me that they are sad for me because I don't believe in God, nor my Wiccan friends, nor my Buddhist friends.


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## Seaglass (Jul 16, 2009)

JonTullos said:


> If a Muslim wants to pray to Allah, that's their right and I won't fight them on it.  I will choose not to participate but I will also respect their beliefs.  If they want to discuss my beliefs vs. theirs, fine... but I'm not going to tell them they're a bad person or that I hate them simply because they believe differently then I do.



Allah's just Arabic for God, generally considered to be the same one as in Christianity and Judaism. Christians in the Middle East praying in Arabic use the word too.


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## Shishkabob (Jul 16, 2009)

And we go right on back to the vegetarian vs meat eaters argument.



PS--- Christans, Jews and Sunni Muslims believe in the same exact God.  The only real difference in our religions is how we view Jesus played a role.


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## akflightmedic (Jul 16, 2009)

Linuss said:


> How is having an ash cross, a very normal Christian act, "extreme"?  Just because you are an atheist doesn't mean a well established and practed act in this country is "extreme".
> 
> 
> And as for the chicken, again... health hazard.  So you're arguing doing a blanket treatment for ALL patients, even if it could be detrimental to them?



At no point did I mention the ashen cross for Lent...if you re read and comprehend you will see where I said an obscure sect (meaning may not exist or we do not know about it yet) wants to smear ash on your forehead. Please do not confuse the two and keep working on those comprehension skills as this is not the first time you have reacted without fully comprehending what you have read...(this is not picking on you, this is constructive criticism or free advice for life) whichever you choose.


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## Hockey (Jul 16, 2009)

Linuss said:


> And we go right on back to the vegetarian vs meat eaters argument.




Seems to be a recurring problem in 99% of all the threads recently.


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## akflightmedic (Jul 16, 2009)

Hockey said:


> Seems to be a recurring problem in 99% of all the threads recently.



And this would be the point of public forums, yet everyone complains...?

It is a place to share ideas, experiences and opinions...for all who have contributed, there are 50 or more who have said nothing but learned a lot. 

The only pointless posts are the ones which continue to point out the obvious, which is the dead horse argument. But is it really a dead horse if someone out there is benefiting/learning or experiencing one way or another something from all this discussion which has remained quite civil for the most part?


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## Shishkabob (Jul 16, 2009)

I think you mistook what I meant by "vegetarian vs meat eater argument"...


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## Seaglass (Jul 16, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Their is intolerance in every belief system, however Christians get the stigma of being intolerant because that is what you see. I know many very wonderful Christians, but I, personally have also met a lot of intolerant religions who try to impose their beliefs and opinions, simply because "God says homosexuality is wrong". "God says abortion is wrong" "God says it's wrong not to believe in God" "God says you're going to burn in Hell, heathen!"
> 
> It's not right, and it's not fair, but people's opinions are widely shaped by their experiences, and bad apples remain more prominently in your mind then good apples.
> 
> And why is it I often hear about Christians and their pity because of my atheism? My jewish friends don't tell me that they are sad for me because I don't believe in God, nor my Wiccan friends, nor my Buddhist friends.



I've gotten lectured and pitied on being the "wrong" religion by people from all angles. Atheists think I'm dumb, people who agree with me think I'm not serious enough or doing it wrong, and people from different religions think I'm misguided. 

However, I have noticed that it tends to come up much sooner with Christians, while most others wait to get to know me before they start. I think it's just one of the things that comes with being in the majority--you're more likely to find people who agree with you, and less likely to be criticized. 

I've noticed that tolerance is less popular with a strong religious majority, too, no matter what the religion. If you're part of an overwhelming majority, why do you need tolerance?


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## rmellish (Jul 16, 2009)

Linuss said:


> PS--- Christans, Jews and Sunni Muslims believe in the same exact God.  The only real difference in our religions is how we view Jesus played a role.



No, actually there's a pretty big difference, moreso between Islam and the other two you listed. 

Crap, I actually helped distract the thread...

Living out in the bible belt, I have no problem being supportive of the patient and their beliefs, but I've never actually prayed for someone, prayed with them a few times though, it's not my cup of tea, but I figure when I'm working, it's generally not about me anyway. 




mycrofft said:


> Me, I've bowed my head out of respect and a couple times and thought the agnostics' prayer: "Hey, if you're really there, heads up, here comes a good one".



That's a good one.


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## usafmedic45 (Jul 16, 2009)

> No, actually there's a pretty big difference, moreso between Islam and the other two you listed.



And what do you base your assessment on?  Do you happen to have read the texts from all three and viewed them in the context of when they were written or are you simply basing your assessment off of a few passages from each or off of what you've heard a?  I have and there is _much_ more in common than the "big differences" you seem to believe exist.  It is the perpetuation of the belief that we have more separating us as human beings- religious vs. atheist, Catholic vs. Jew, Catholic vs. Protestant, Muslim vs. Christian, etc- and the perversions of teachings by a minority for personal gain in all religions that has made religion in general one of the leading causes of traumatic suffering and death throughout history.  Please do not be a part of that problem by espousing misconceptions.


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## rmellish (Jul 16, 2009)

usafmedic45 said:


> And what do you base your assessment on?  Do you happen to have read the texts from all three and viewed them in the context of when they were written or are you simply basing your assessment off of a few passages from each or off of what you've heard a?  I have and there is _much_ more in common than the "big differences" you seem to believe exist.  It is the perpetuation of the belief that we have more separating us as human beings- religious vs. atheist, Catholic vs. Jew, Catholic vs. Protestant, Muslim vs. Christian, etc- and the perversions of teachings by a minority for personal gain in all religions that has made religion in general one of the leading causes of traumatic suffering and death throughout history.  Please do not be a part of that problem by espousing misconceptions.



My bad, probably should have mentioned something about the global religious studie courses which centered around literary comparison between the western Bible and the Qu'ran. 

So I'm basing that off of more than "a few passages" or "the perversions and teachings by a minority." There are similarities of course, but this is to be expected if one takes into consideration that portions of the Qu'ran were most likely adopted from the "Christian" oral tradition. Oh, that's not necessarily a "perversion by a minority" either. 

You also cannot argue that the in modernity the religions have taken different directions philosophically....great, another thread on it's way to being locked. You're welcome to PM me.


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## usafmedic45 (Jul 16, 2009)

> Oh, that's not necessarily a "perversion by a minority" either.



I was referring to the difference between a mainstream Muslim and a _Jihadi_.  That is a perversion in anyone's book.  However, I am not going to debate this any further since I don't have any desire to garner more moderator applied points over this thread.


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## EMTTrainingResource (May 29, 2014)

EMTinNEPA said:


> In my eyes, prayer is a ridiculous and ego-centric concept.  To those of you who pray: do you not find any type of issue with asking the creator of the ENTIRE UNIVERSE to grant you a personal favor.  The idea of prayer is an extension of human ego, of the old ideas that the universe revolves around us, when the reality is that we are small and insignificant.  So small and insignificant, that the creator of the universe granting us a wish would be akin to a conscious sun granting a wish to a single bacterium on the ocean floor.
> 
> Patient asks me to pray with them?  Simple... I just say I can't, I have a job to do.  And then I set about either ACTUALLY helping the patient, or just looking busy.



I understand and respect your viewpoint, however, the biblical intent of prayer is far from self-serving.  Prayer is not meant as our wish list for God to do for us but much more intended as a means to align our hearts to God's wishes.  Yes, He is the creator of the universe which is why He deserves to have us trying to align our hearts with his wishes not our own and prayer is the vehicle He created for that purpose.  Unforutnately, many of us have misused or misunderstood prayer to be self-serving so I do understand your concern of prayers with that end alone in mind.


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## akflightmedic (May 29, 2014)

Thread CPR successful again! Almost 5 years old!!!!


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## Bearamedic (May 29, 2014)

Im an atheist, (technically agnostic) and i absolutely will pray with them.

My internal dialogue is essentially:

Uh, im talking to nothing, but if you exist, uh, do the thing that the patient is praying for. 


Well except for the patients that pray for the apocalypse and to kill all the liberals and gays and blacks


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## ExpatMedic0 (May 29, 2014)

But I thought on the other thread we all concluded it was not professional to "play along" with a patient's delusions?  I believe the thread title was "Hallucinations... play along?"  :rofl:


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## CFal (May 29, 2014)

ExpatMedic0 said:


> But I thought on the other thread we all concluded it was not professional to "play along" patient's delusions?  I believe the thread title was "Hallucinations... play along?"  :rofl:



your profile picture is very fitting h34r:


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## EMTTrainingResource (May 29, 2014)

CFal said:


> your profile picture is very fitting h34r:



Indeed! <_<


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