# Time and place for everything...



## vquintessence (Mar 4, 2009)

Responded last Saturday for man trapped in water/ice.  He went after his dog.  The ice has been melting with our lovely heat wave of ~50 degrees for a few days.  Anyways, he falls through; the dog does not.  The dog infact is standing next to his hole in the ice, happily wagging away.

Well guy is extricated by Fire.  39 Y/O male.  Was in water for 10 minutes, never submerged.  Although it has been warm, todays temp is in the high 20's and very windy.  We're stripping the gentleman in the back, still parked next to the windy lake, when the Fire chief whips open both rear doors.

Chief proceeds to cuss out the guy:  "How dare you put my mens lives in danger."  "Why wasn't your dog on the leash?  We have that law for a reason."  "You're wasting our resources."  "etc, etc, chastise, chastise, curse, curse".  Meanwhile wind is whipping into the truck and the guy's still soaked and completely naked.  He hasn't been shivering at all.  To top it off, a crowd is behind the chief and getting a complete eye full...

What the hell is wrong with people.


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## karaya (Mar 4, 2009)

Sounds like the Chief needs to retire.  But, then this is Massachusetts, right?


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## vquintessence (Mar 4, 2009)

Yep, good 'ole MA.  He'll be here another fifteen years.


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## PapaBear434 (Mar 4, 2009)

Wow...  Yeah, I probably would have jumped out of the truck, pulled him away and shut the doors.  Told him to back the heck off and let us do our job first, and complain later.

I can't think of any supervisory board that would have held up a reprimand against me for doing so, either.  But I'm also a volunteer, so my financial future isn't really at stake besides having to pay for my own school.  Gives me a certain amount of freedom to tell a Chief that is in the wrong like this to go take a hike.

What did you end up doing, incidentally?


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## Airwaygoddess (Mar 4, 2009)

*Yes there is a time and place.........  REALLY!*

Well so much for the fire chief being the patient's advocate......   Sounds like he needs some time off or as one person said already .....retire


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## Veneficus (Mar 4, 2009)

cmon guys, don't lay into the fire chief, I am sure the "all hazards" fire department has 10 or so fully involved working structure fires to fight per shift.

(pay no attention to the sarcasm)

h34r:


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## VentMedic (Mar 4, 2009)

Was the guy okay?

If so, he needs a dose of realty check that his stupid actions could have killed his dog, himself and anyone who went to his rescue.   Sending him a ticket in the mail later probably won't have the same effect.

That chief was probably speaking for your safety as well even though the guy was extricated by Fire. Some here are very quick to grab any chance to criticize the FD who also have a role in helping you receive a live patient to care for.


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## vquintessence (Mar 4, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Was the guy okay?
> 
> If so, he needs a dose of realty check that his stupid actions could have killed his dog, himself and anyone who went to his rescue.   Sending him a ticket in the mail later probably won't have the same effect.
> 
> That chief was probably speaking for your safety as well even though the guy was extricated by Fire. Some here are very quick to grab any chance to criticize the FD who also have a role in helping you receive a live patient to care for.



The guy was discharged after two days.  I wish I knew his core temp when we dropped him off, but haven't run into the RN yet.

I'm not knocking their efforts, and more so give kudos that the guy was out of the water within ten minutes.  They were on scene within 3 minutes, geared up by 5, and he was out in 10.  They clearly saved his life and prevented danger to bystanders attempting their own rescue.  My annoyance was with the Chief and his complete arrogance on scene.

The pt was still wet, naked, already showing signs of hypothermia and the Chief comes bursting in, see's the pts immediate situation, but continues to sieze the moment to tear into the guy while leaving both ambulance doors wide open to the elements and crowd.  Was he really trying to keep his men and us safe by teaching the pt at that moment?  Or was he appeasing his ego as well as the crowd that laid witness to the pts naked, cold body?  He could have followed us to the hospital, the next town over, less than 8 minutes away, then laid into the guy.

I'll admit there's a personal history of grief between the Chief and my service, so I already have a low tolerance with him.  However, this isn't the first absurdity that has happened when he gets involved at the wrong time.


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## karaya (Mar 4, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> That chief was probably speaking for your safety as well even though the guy was extricated by Fire. Some here are very quick to grab any chance to criticize the FD who also have a role in helping you receive a live patient to care for.


 
I would agree to a point.  The point is, there is a time and place for everything and a public berating right on the aftermath of the rescue seems not to be the time nor the place.  Of course, we weren't there and that makes it tempting to armchair judge this situation.  The chief may have had reason for his conversation with the naked patient.


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## Veneficus (Mar 4, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Was the guy okay?
> 
> If so, he needs a dose of realty check that his stupid actions could have killed his dog, himself and anyone who went to his rescue.   Sending him a ticket in the mail later probably won't have the same effect.
> 
> That chief was probably speaking for your safety as well even though the guy was extricated by Fire. Some here are very quick to grab any chance to criticize the FD who also have a role in helping you receive a live patient to care for.



I am going to have to respectfully disagree on this one. While I understand the teachable moment, I don’t think chewing out a naked patient just pulled from the icy depths in front of a group of people professional. If we saw a provider yelling and cursing out a patient, would we be ok with it? I wouldn’t.

Furthermore, it was in all probability safer to pull this person out of the water than to effect a rescue on an infant in a modern construction residence that is on fire. Probably a lot safer than standing out on the freeway after an MVA as well.

Moreover, when I first signed on to an FD, I had to come to terms that my place in society (what I was being paid for not only in dollars but esteem) was to help people who were usually in a dangerous situation that a little diligence or thought on their part could have prevented. In many instances it is dangerous and victims, bystanders, or rescuers might die. (or get hurt badly) It is no different for LE, soldiers, or sailors. If you signed up to be a cop and didn’t ever expect the bad guys to run or shoot back, you seriously need a bit more games of “cops and robbers.” If you signed to be in the Army but didn’t want to go to war, perhaps you should have looked up the definition of “soldier” in the dictionary. If you enlisted in the Navy and didn’t want to go to sea, perhaps “air force” would have been a better choice? 

One of the reasons we think so highly of these people is because they might die to give the rest of us something, even if we take it for granted or needed their aid because of our own stupidity. Yes, I have disagreements with how the fire service administration operates and I still count many firefighters my friends, but this behavior is way out of line, certainly not consistent with the values of the fire service, unacceptable for a public servant, and a detriment to patient care.

His intentions I would say were well placed, but his delivery leaves a lot to be desired. I am not so disturbed he needs to be retired, but a moment of reflection and maybe a friend or peer pointing out there was a better way.


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## VentMedic (Mar 4, 2009)

Veneficus said:


> His intentions I would say were well placed, but his delivery leaves a lot to be desired. I am not so disturbed he needs to be retired, but a moment of reflection and maybe a friend or peer pointing out there was a better way.


 
As already pointed out by *karaya*, we were not there.

Some have accused me of swearing like a sailor for saying "shoot", "golly darn", "dang" and "gee whiz". 

While there were several bystanders present at this ice scene, some may truly have been clueless of the dangers. I bet some were calling for their dogs and getting that leash attached after hearing the Chief. If one more life is saved from the lesson learned, even though in a harsh manner, it is a good day. 

We do sometimes take time to educate while the event is still fresh even though this may seem callous to some. 

If a child, not wearing a helmet, is severely injured at a skate park or from a bicycle accident, a FF/Paramedic and PD will remain on scene with the sole purpose of educating the child's friends. This is done gentler with no cursing since they are kids but the remains of their friend's brains on the concrete is still fresh. Those that are not wearing a helmet will be taken to their parents who will also get a lecture and maybe a ticket. 

If anyone has ever gone to a high school to lecture on the dangers of drunk driving, you know showing gory pictures are more amusement than educational. You may see the same kids hanging out in a parking by their cars with a beer in hand later that night. We are also not so quick to get the minimally injured away from the fatality at a teenage drunk driving scene. We used to even have a program where high school kids known to drink and drive could be present in our busy trauma center to see the effects of alcohol and drugs. Unfortunately the state privacy laws have made that difficult.


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## mycrofft (Mar 5, 2009)

*Was the pt his son?*

........Or his safety officer??


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