# Emergency Medical Responder



## Moserrr (Aug 9, 2017)

Is it just me, or does no one acknowledge this as a profession? I busted my rump to get this certification and now I cant get a job because no one seems to know what an EMR is. When I took the national registry the test givers didnt know what an EMR was, they said "you mean EMT?" no, I mean EMR. Basically an EMT, I just cant tube or traction splint, and lets be honest, theyre about to boot that anyways.


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## Chimpie (Aug 9, 2017)

Yes, EMR is not as recognized anymore because EMT is so easy to obtain. 

Have you thought about obtaining your EMT?


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## Jim37F (Aug 9, 2017)

Where do EMTs "tube" anyone?? There's places that don't even let them get a finger stick for blood sugar.....
And they still teach KEDs, yet I've never actually used one, but I have used the traction splint a few times (funnily enough, less often than patients I've been on that have been intubated....and where I worked that was essentially almost only patients getting, or very close to getting, CPR).

EMR can be done in 40 hours....thats a single work week. In a world where EMT is generally considered the entry level provider in EMS....theres places where short of being a full Paramedic you're not allowed to respond to 911 calls.


Most of the time I've heard people talk about EMR it's "oh that's what Cops and Firefighters and Lifeguards and the first aid squad at the ski resort get" i.e. a cert to enhance related professions but not an independent career in and of it's own...heck it's hard (granted not impossible, but still not very easy) to make being an EMT a full career, even Paramedics can have a hard time making a career out of it unless they're also a firefighter or something.


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## Moserrr (Aug 9, 2017)

I had tried,  I passed skills and such but not national registry. In fact it was a huge accomplishment after trying so hard to get my EMT, that I got my EMR; but thank you for belittling that.


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## VFlutter (Aug 9, 2017)

Moserrr said:


> I had tried,  I passed skills and such but not national registry. In fact it was a huge accomplishment after trying so hard to get my EMT, that I got my EMR; but thank you for belittling that.



Stateing facts is not belittling something. EMR is absolutely nothing compared to actual medical education. To say it's basically the same thing except intubation and traction splint is absolutely ignorant and asinine. A certification you can obtain in a month is not a profession. And if you consider that "busting your rump", and couldn't pass EMT, then you should seriously take a hard look and reconsider  career choices. Seriously, you are talking about a certification that a high school lifeguard gets to work at the pool for the summer.


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## GMCmedic (Aug 9, 2017)

I can assure you that traction splints, rescue airways, and ET tubes arent going anywhere. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


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## NomadicMedic (Aug 9, 2017)

The EMR certification is what I taught in an 80 hour class to industrial first responders and security guards. It's basic first aid with a few additional skills. Used mostly as an add in to plus up a individual's skill set, it's certainly not a career level course. 

If you had trouble passing the EMT course, I'd suggest another class, study aids or a tutor. EMT is really the basic entry level to EMS work.


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## DrParasite (Aug 9, 2017)

Moserrr said:


> I had tried,  I passed skills and such but not national registry. In fact it was a huge accomplishment after trying so hard to get my EMT, that I got my EMR; but thank you for belittling that.


Your education (in your profile) says EMT..... is that not correct?

and EMR is an Emergency Medical Responder.... their job is to prevent the patient from dying in the 10 minutes it takes EMS to arrive (typically EMTs and/or paramedics).  These are the people who actually know what's going on, and can do a more in depth assessment and decide on a treatment plan.  Would you hire someone who could only treat the patient for 10 minutes?

There is a HUGE difference between EMT and EMR.  Are the skill sheets nearly identical?  sure.  are the tests different?  absolutely.  EMT is longer, requires more testing, and requires the students to have a better grasp on anatomy and the why we do interventions (and it still is lacking, and doesn't come close to what paramedics need to know).

The only place that will hire you as an EMR is one where it's not your primary job. it's an add on to something else you do (security is probably the most common, but some career fire departments and police departments will too, as well as industrial places, but even the FDs and industry are moving toward EMT as the minimum standard).

If you want to be proud of EMR, good for you.  I'm proud of my EMT certification.  and I teach EMR classes, as well as EMT.  There is a HUGE difference in the knowledge between the participants (I give the same pre and post quizs to both classes, and yes, the FD is a mix of EMRs and EMTs)

and if you think they are booting traction splint, and EMTs are able to tube, than your initial EMT training failed you.


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## agregularguy (Aug 9, 2017)

NomadicMedic said:


> The EMR certification is what I taught in an 80 hour class to industrial first responders and security guards. It's basic first aid with a few additional skills. Used mostly as an add in to plus up a individual's skill set, it's certainly not a career level course.
> 
> If you had trouble passing the EMT course, I'd suggest another class, study aids or a tutor. EMT is really the basic entry level to EMS work.



We've got several threads on here about study aids/study habits. I suggest taking a look through them.

As everyone else stated, EMR is usually tacked on to any other profession (Fire, Police, Security) and not meant as a stand alone. That's not to belittle your accomplishment, I started as an EMR too! I got my EMR at 17, as you had to be 18 to be an EMT. (Although, I think it was called something else at that point..) The point is though, I didn't stop at EMR-- you're just dipping your feet in the medical world with it. Keep moving, keep learning! This forum is a great place to learn from if you're having trouble with EMT. However, you have to be able to put in the effort for it.


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## NysEms2117 (Aug 9, 2017)

NomadicMedic said:


> The EMR certification is what I taught in an 80 hour class to industrial first responders and security guards.


tbh i thought it was even less. i thought it was around 40 hours


Moserrr said:


> no, I mean EMR. Basically an EMT, I just cant tube or traction splint, and lets be honest, theyre about to boot that anyways.


Not to be mean, but to be direct, this statement couldn't possibly be more wrong. EMR is a great starting place, however continuing education is required. I don't think anywhere in the United States an EMT-B (anywhere between 200-450 hrs if your generous of training) will let them intubate somebody. most places in the US won't even let EMT-B's start an IV (there are some though). traction splinting, possibly... but i've never heard of it as a lifesaving procedure, pain relieving, yes.


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## VentMonkey (Aug 9, 2017)

Moserrr said:


> Is it just me, or does no one acknowledge this as a profession?


It's just you. But seriously, most days I have serious doubts that all levels of prehospital providers--as a general group--will ever be a "profession", let alone professionals.

If you came here looking for empathy, with your initially articulated post, you will not find it. If you came here looking for advice, you got it, which I pretty much would be echoing at this point. 

Many of the fire departments I have seen, and been around are trained at the ALS-level, and still (just barely, reluctantly) act at the (EMR) first responder-level. Perhaps this will give you some more insight as to where the actual EMR certification is in the grand scheme of prehospital things. 

... I would venture to guess EMR may "get the boot" sooner than any one of the treatments you've listed; none of which are truly life saving anyhow.


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## StCEMT (Aug 9, 2017)

Nobody is belittling your work, but there is a reason you aren't finding a job...


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## Summit (Aug 9, 2017)

EMT is considered the bare bones minimum for EMS from a regulatory and practical standpoint.

EMR (formerly First Responder) is typically a 48-60 hours course aimed at giving better first aid training to those whose primary job is not patient care.

It is not the most popular certification because it isn't recognized at the state level for EMS, so those with time to take EMR usually opt for a WFR because they are in austere environments, an EMT for the opportunities it affords, or they end up with something faster like a 24 hour Advanced First Aid class.


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## NomadicMedic (Aug 9, 2017)

NysEms2117 said:


> tbh i thought it was even less. i thought it was around 40 hours



Maybe you're right. I recall it being longer than 40 hours though...


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## TransportJockey (Aug 9, 2017)

Where are you looking for a job as an EMR? If it's in the prehospital medical world, then you're not qualified for almsot any position. There are some places that hire CPR certified people to drive wheelchair vans, so that's probably where you'd end up. EMRs do not belong on an ambulance in 99% of the US


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## Jim37F (Aug 9, 2017)

NomadicMedic said:


> Maybe you're right. I recall it being longer than 40 hours though...


http://safetyms.com/medical-responder
This course in Louisiana quotes 40 hours even (and the price is pretty much the same as I paid for my EMT course! Yeesh)


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## DrParasite (Aug 9, 2017)

TransportJockey said:


> EMRs do not belong on an ambulance in 99% of the US


I believe @NysEms2117 works on a CCT truck where they have a dedicated EMR driver


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## NysEms2117 (Aug 9, 2017)

DrParasite said:


> I believe @NysEms2117 works on a CCT truck where they have a dedicated EMR driver


Correct, strictly to save costs. Anytime i have worked, the EMR has minimal to no patient contact. They mainly drive and organize the paperwork in my experience. (PT CC EMT-B)


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## Summit (Aug 9, 2017)

NysEms2117 said:


> Correct, strictly to save costs. Anytime i have worked, the EMR has minimal to no patient contact. They mainly drive and organize the paperwork in my experience. (PT CC EMT-B)


Hard to imagine paying less than what EMTs make


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## NysEms2117 (Aug 9, 2017)

Summit said:


> Hard to imagine paying less than what EMTs make


work for the county, so i probably make what most paramedics make(or dam close). EMR's are minimum wage.


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## Moserrr (Aug 9, 2017)

I took the EMT class, I took the EMR class. I learned the same amount of imformation in both classes.


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## Summit (Aug 9, 2017)

Moserrr said:


> I took the EMT class, I took the EMR class. I learned the same amount of imformation in both classes.


While you could have had a well above average EMR class, it is more likely that you were already prepared by your EMT class for your EMR leaving you with that impression... or perhaps learning the same in both classes is closely related to your being unable to pass EMT as there are several things that should be covered in EMT that are not covered in EMR.


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## StCEMT (Aug 9, 2017)

Moserrr said:


> I took the EMT class, I took the EMR class. I learned the same amount of imformation in both classes.


Regardless of what they did or didn't teach, it doesn't really change the fact that the baseline for pretty much every service is EMT-B. Even then, the general consensus here and among many other providers elsewhere is that the education standards for everything from B to P should be more stringent than they currently are. Nobody here is trying to discourage you from pursing a job in this field, if anything I think we would all say go beyond and try to learn more. Just be realistic with your expectations of what you will be able to do career wise with what you have. More education is a requirement to work in this field, get paid better, etc. @NysEms2117 is the only person I know of here that has anything to do with EMR's and you have seen the role they play at his employer and that role is reflective of the education standards between the three crew members on his truck. The EMR plays a fairly minimal role, he does a bit more due to the higher level of education/job requirement he has, and his partner has a very generous scope of practice it sounds like, which is a reflection of his education as a Critical Care Paramedic.


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## NysEms2117 (Aug 9, 2017)

The layout of the truck i work part time on just so everybody is on the same page is as follows:
EMR- Driver/paperwork person -the ccparamedic's narcotics DEA shtuff. 
EMT- (myself) assist the critical care paramedic in procedures/treatment of the patient. I hold things, prepare things i know he will need, and get my paramedic partner what he tells me. I also do most of the radio contact with hospitals and other units. 
Critical care paramedic- Does all procedures/ interventions on the patient. tells me what to say, or asks me to request certain things.

On some calls my paramedic partner won't even speak to the EMR driver. That's how far away from patient care they are. 



Moserrr said:


> I took the EMT class, I took the EMR class. I learned the same amount of information*fixed* in both classes.


get your money back for the EMR class. or sue the EMT class for not teaching nearly enough .


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## agregularguy (Aug 9, 2017)

The only other place I can think that "hires" EMRs was the first volunteer ambulance service I worked at had a few old guys that didn't take the EMT class go through EMR and acted as drivers alone. They did absolutely nothing patient care-wise beyond fetch stairchairs/stretchers and drive the trucks. The medic/basics that were on the shift with them did the rest. 

Again, this isn't meant to belittle EMR, but just to state the facts. EMT-B is the ENTRY level in the EMS world.  And to be honest, many of us on this board even believe that EMT isn't nearly enough education as an entry level. (What I would give for the whole country to be medic level to start...)


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## VentMonkey (Aug 9, 2017)

I thought EMR was common among large fire departments on the east coast (i.e., FDNY, and Boston Fire)?

Bottom line, OP- if you already have a chip on your shoulder about being the lowest level of certified prehospital provider--which you most certainly sound like you do--either get rid of that chip by doing something about it, or don't and be miserable. It's your choice.


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## agregularguy (Aug 9, 2017)

VentMonkey said:


> I thought EMR was common among large fire departments on the east coast (i.e., FDNY, and Boston Fire)?
> 
> Bottom line, OP- if you already have a chip on your shoulder about being the lowest level of certified prehospital provider--which you most certainly sound like you do--either get rid of that chip by doing something about it, or don't and be miserable. It's your choice.



Yes, was thinking solely EMS side of things. Most of the paid fire departments I ran around in both NY and MA required EMR at minimum, although many are transitioning to at least EMT.


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## Old Tracker (Aug 9, 2017)

We have several EMRs, but we are very rural. Two of them are paid, one has been on the job for 35 years and does not want to upgrade. He also has several other jobs. The other paid EMR is an EMT in everything except license. He was trained by a prior administration, but does not want to go through the class. He knows the what to do's, but not the whys.  Both of these guys have helped in fairly big events. CPR cases, child births, etc.

Down here though, you need to speak Spanish.

Get your EMT cert, it ain't that hard, and you'll be much better off in the long run. I got mine at age 66 and am working on AEMT now, which is pretty much as far a I want to go at my age, but who knows.


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## VentMonkey (Aug 9, 2017)

Old Tracker said:


> Down here though, you need to speak Spanish.


_¡n'ombre!_


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## hometownmedic5 (Aug 9, 2017)

You would be unemployable in MA because the cert isnt recongnized in any capacity near what you're looking for. We dont put EMRs on ambulances here. The only place that card would do you any good would be as a firefighter or police officer, and not even much there.

You will also continue to find difficulty finding work as long as you have the attitude that you're "basically an emt". You aren't. I'm sorry that you "worked your butt off" to get through an intermediate band aid course, but the plain fact of the matter is that it isnt much of a class, nor was it ever meant to actually be an occupation. It's an add on skill for the people who are likely to get there before the ambulance so they can do something more than stand there for five minutes until we show up. EMT isn't much longer or much if any harder. Medic school is laughable when compared to an actual medical education(not meaning med school, but calling attention to the difference between training and education). 

Let's face it. EMS education in this country isnt impressing anybody, even at the highest level. You aren't at the highest level. In fact, the only person on the EMS spectrum you out rank is Peter Griffin, CPR. The biggest component to being happy and satisfied in life is managing expectations. It seems that somewhere along the road, you got your expectations all out of whack in regards to your EMR cert and what you'd be doing with it. Come back down to earth, recognize that this is the first step in what could be a career(or not) and start to plan a path from here to where you want to be.


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## DrParasite (Aug 10, 2017)

Moserrr said:


> I took the EMT class, I took the EMR class. I learned the same amount of imformation in both classes.


My current EMT class is somewhere in the range of 220 hours.  assuming EMR is 80 (and I do think it's closer to 40), that's almost a 3:1 increase in hours.  if you didn't learn anything else, than either your instructor was horrible, you didn't pay enough attention, or the course was poorly structured AND you didn't do any of the readings.

Although, if you weren't able to pass the EMT exam after completing the course, and your EMT course didn't cover anything other than what you learned EMR, than I'm pretty sure I can see what you failed the EMT exam.....


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## Medic27 (Aug 10, 2017)

My EMT class was 140 hours of instruction, I don't think EMR is 80. We will meet in the middle of @DrParasite said 80. Let's say 60. My class was still double the amount of instruction, I just don't think the two compare very closely. If you slashed my EMT education in half, I would feel like an incompetent son of a gun if I was working on patients. But, perhaps this is just my prerogative.


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## hometownmedic5 (Aug 10, 2017)

For as long as we continue to rate our classes by hours, we will continue to look up at the soles of the shoes of educated professionals and wonder why we aren't accepted...

In this context, were having a pointless argument. How many of your precious hours were spent on say c spine procedures, traction splinting, and so on? This is why rating classes based on hours is foolish. 

Content people. It's all that matters. I could fill a hundred hours on shoe tying if I had a mind too, but on graduation day all you'd be able to do is tie your shoes.


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## VFlutter (Aug 10, 2017)

I also find it funny when people start debating hours. So to put things into perspective 1 college credit hour is supposedly 37.5 contact hours. So....

Aas. Paramedic 69 credits or 2,587 hrs
Aas. RT is 82 credits or 3,075hrs
BSN is 119 credits or 4,462hrs
DPT is 212 credits  or 7,950hrs

I wondering why a 80 or even 200 hr course would not be considered a profession compared to others


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## NysEms2117 (Aug 10, 2017)

Chase said:


> I also find it funny when people start debating hours. So to put things into perspective 1 college credit hour is supposedly 37.5 contact hours. So....
> 
> Aas. Paramedic 69 credits or 2,587 hrs
> Aas. RT is 82 credits or 3,075hrs
> ...


logic is fun isn't it? why is it i don't get 30$ an hour like you nursing folks do for being an EMT again!!!??? I GOT 5 credits!!


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## EpiEMS (Aug 10, 2017)

Chase said:


> DPT is 212 credits or 7,950hrs



To be fair, the marginal benefit of a DPT is questionable, at best. It's pure curricular inflation from what I've been able to find.

But to your point more generally - the number of hours of training/education/etc. is not really a useful way to look at things. Rather, we should be concerned with improvement in outcomes.


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## VFlutter (Aug 10, 2017)

EpiEMS said:


> To be fair, the marginal benefit of a DPT is questionable, at best. It's pure curricular inflation from what I've been able to find.
> 
> But to your point more generally - the number of hours of training/education/etc. is not really a useful way to look at things. Rather, we should be concerned with improvement in outcomes.



I agree, like everything else there is a bell curve  or plateau and eventually adding more onto a curriculum does not necessarily yield better results. 

And not to derail the thread but it still highlights an important concept that EMS does not understand. For all of these professions the increase in educational requirements came before the increase in pay and professional standing. Most recently DPTs still make the same as they did when a Masters was the minimum level of entry however now they are making pushes for increased reimbursement, more responsibilities, etc.


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## EpiEMS (Aug 11, 2017)

@Chase, I think you're spot on.



Chase said:


> For all of these professions the increase in educational requirements came before the increase in pay and professional standing.



This is totally true - though, realistically, I don't think folks in EMS are necessarily willing to put themselves out there for this...


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## hometownmedic5 (Aug 11, 2017)

EpiEMS said:


> @Chase, I think you're spot on.
> 
> 
> 
> This is totally true - though, realistically, I don't think folks in EMS are necessarily willing to put themselves out there for this...



I don't think I agree with that. For sure, there are people that are past the point in their career where it would be a fiscally intelligent decision to invest time and money(and lost time where they could have made more money)in a degree that might not even pay itself off; but there are plenty of people halfway or less through their career who could benefit from increased wages and stature. 

If I was guaranteed, or at least had a high degree of confidence, that the juice would be worth the squeeze, I would absolutely go get a degree. Sadly, the position I'm in right now, I wouldn't see one thin dime more in my paycheck so it doesn't make sense.


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## EpiEMS (Aug 11, 2017)

@hometownmedic5 I certainly *hope* that people would be willing to, I just don't see much of a push in the bulk of the EMS community (anecdotally) towards more education.


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## VFlutter (Aug 11, 2017)

But that is precisely the point. Many of the early adopters of these increased educational standards did not see any significant benefit during their careers. It's a painfully slow evolution. Not arguing that people should be selfless and incur debt for no financial gain but unfortunately that's they way it happened for many professions. There really isn't a good answer.


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## Jon (Sep 1, 2017)

Moserrr said:


> Is it just me, or does no one acknowledge this as a profession? I busted my rump to get this certification and now I cant get a job because no one seems to know what an EMR is. When I took the national registry the test givers didnt know what an EMR was, they said "you mean EMT?" no, I mean EMR. Basically an EMT, I just cant tube or traction splint, and lets be honest, theyre about to boot that anyways.



Well, this isn't what you want to hear, but EMR isn't really part of the EMS profession. It's a cert that exists for folks who don't have any expectation of having to manage patients for more than a few minutes, or without being under the direct supervision of a higher level of care.

What sort of job are you looking for? Do you meet the requirements? If you don't, don't expect them to change the rules for you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## TransportJockey (Sep 1, 2017)

I think we scared off the OP because we werent saying what she wanted to hear 

Sent from my LG-LS993 using Tapatalk


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## DrParasite (Sep 1, 2017)

Chase said:


> Aas. Paramedic 69 credits or 2,587 hrs
> Aas. RT is 82 credits or 3,075hrs
> BSN is 119 credits or 4,462hrs
> DPT is 212 credits  or 7,950hrs


So, many moons ago, I received college credits for my NYS EMT renewal... I received 6 credits for my EMT class.  IIRC, it was 3 or 4 hours a night, twice a week, and several saturdays, over the span of a semester.  Seemed about fair, considering I would receive 3 credits for a class that met (on average) 3-4 hours a week.  I don't remember how many hours total, but that was what is on my transcript (yes, I actually looked that up).  So EMT class can be the equivalent of a 6 credit class.  and once you remove the non-core curriculum classes (you know, the classes to make you a "well rounded provider", and are not directly required for the job you will be doing) you find the actual hours drop significantly.

All those are dwarfed by the amount of schooling an MD goes through.... so because an RT, BSN, or DPT (although this might be closer)  doesn't have nearly the amount of education as an MD, does that mean they deserve to be looked down on as not being professional, because they don't meet the MD standards.

And for the record, no one says an EMT is as educated as any of those professions.  Although I do know some really stupid nurses......


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## Jon (Sep 1, 2017)

TransportJockey said:


> I think we scared off the OP because we werent saying what she wanted to hear
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS993 using Tapatalk



I figure the same thing. Wait. Why are you posting here. Shouldn't you be out saving lives?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## DrParasite (Sep 1, 2017)

he was on his phone using tapatalk while on the boat picking up some very wet houstinites.


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## TransportJockey (Sep 1, 2017)

Jon said:


> I figure the same thing. Wait. Why are you posting here. Shouldn't you be out saving lives?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Im off until Sunday lol. 140 hours in 7.5 days os enough for me 

Sent from my LG-LS993 using Tapatalk


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## TransportJockey (Sep 1, 2017)

DrParasite said:


> he was on his phone using tapatalk while on the boat picking up some very wet houstinites.


Lol well i do have a water resistant phone

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## rujero (Oct 9, 2017)

EMR is not a profession, its a skill set to _enhance_ a profession. When I trained for 4 months as a Professional Lifeguard in high school, becoming an EMR was part of the program, but those weren't the skills that defined my job. The purpose of an EMR is to provide initial first aid, CPR/AED until the cavalry arrives.

It sounds like you want to work in this field, and I believe you, but your approach with this post was a little convoluted. Further education of the EMS system and scope of practice for the different levels, and utilizing educational resources like tutors will be in your best interest if you want to make this your career.

-r


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