# Patient is armed



## DragonClaw (Mar 8, 2019)

(I'm a student, please correct me if I'm not right)

So say you respond to a scene, a victim of a is on the ground. I'm not sure if you guys check IDs or anything like that. But saying you did and he gives you a permit to carry a weapon. Maybe he used it, maybe not.  

What if he's unconscience and you feel a gun or another weapon?

Or maybe he has a long gun with him he's not concealing. 

How do you handle this? In states with and without permitless carry.


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## CANMAN (Mar 8, 2019)

You have like 10 different questions posed here and a bunch of different scenarios....

If you weren't aware of the potential of a weapon involved from your dispatch depending on the scenario you can continue to treat the patient and call for law enforcement to secure the weapon when they get there. If the guy is unconscious he's generally not going to be pulling his piece out on you.

If the situation is hostile in any way back out and wait for LE to secure the scene.

If it's a dude with a CCW permit and he's being reasonable and complaining of chest pain treat the patient and have LE secure the firearm when they get there.

If you think the patient used his pistol, long gun, flame thrower, etc to injure someone else at the scene and you just happen to roll up then get the hell outta dodge and call LE.

There's a trend here, involve LE, but if the person is cool, calm, and collected and it's not a firearm related issue don't make it one right off the bat.


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## Akulahawk (Mar 9, 2019)

CANMAN said:


> You have like 10 different questions posed here and a bunch of different scenarios....
> 
> If you weren't aware of the potential of a weapon involved from your dispatch depending on the scenario you can continue to treat the patient and call for law enforcement to secure the weapon when they get there. If the guy is unconscious he's generally not going to be pulling his piece out on you.
> 
> ...


If the person has a CCW and the person designates another person to handle the weapon, I'll let them make that arrangement as long as the weapon is cleared/safed. I'm in California and because of the way the laws/rules here are regarding LE taking possession of a firearm from someone, I'll try to let the patient make those arrangements if possible. Getting Law Enforcement to release a weapon is a very long process. They can't just return the gun to a lawful owner. 

Now if the patient isn't conscious... well then I'm going to have LE secure the weapon. In that instance there's no way the patient can make the arrangements necessary. I also know that once I do that, it'll be about 4 months (at least) before the patient's firearm may legally be released.


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## CANMAN (Mar 9, 2019)

Akulahawk said:


> If the person has a CCW and the person designates another person to handle the weapon, I'll let them make that arrangement as long as the weapon is cleared/safed. I'm in California and because of the way the laws/rules here are regarding LE taking possession of a firearm from someone, I'll try to let the patient make those arrangements if possible. Getting Law Enforcement to release a weapon is a very long process. They can't just return the gun to a lawful owner.
> 
> Now if the patient isn't conscious... well then I'm going to have LE secure the weapon. In that instance there's no way the patient can make the arrangements necessary. I also know that once I do that, it'll be about 4 months (at least) before the patient's firearm may legally be released.



Yup thats fair. Every state is going to have their own legalities to follow that will influence decision making. Personally if I'm unconscious I have bigger things to worry about then getting my CCW rig back lol. Yet another great reason to own more then one firearm


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## DesertMedic66 (Mar 9, 2019)

For CCW holder who is being calm and not altered then I will let them make arrangements on how they would like to store their weapon and will assist them in that process. 

Unconscious patient with a weapon? I will remove the weapon as soon as I find it and contact LEO to take control of it but I will not delay patient care. If needed I will lock it up in a secured cabinet in the ambulance and have LEO meet us at the hospital. 

Aggressive patient or a patient in general holding a weapon when we get on scene will have me leave the scene and contact LEO to secure the scene.


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## DragonClaw (Mar 9, 2019)

CANMAN said:


> Yet another great reason to own more then one firearm


Who only owns one?


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## PotatoMedic (Mar 10, 2019)

My question is... (And yes I know it is California) by why does it take months for pd to release a firearm back to the rightful owner is situations like this?


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## DrParasite (Mar 10, 2019)

some bedtime reading for you:









						EMS Concealed Carry Law: 5 Things You Need To Know
					






					www.emsworld.com
				












						Pistol-Packin' Patients
					






					www.emsworld.com


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## Akulahawk (Mar 10, 2019)

PotatoMedic said:


> My question is... (And yes I know it is California) by why does it take months for pd to release a firearm back to the rightful owner is situations like this?


The gun owner has to fill out a form (Law Enforcement Gun Release) with the DOJ. They then perform an eligibility check on the applicant, same check done as if it were a purchase, and then send the results to the applicant who must then present the result letter to the agency that is in control of the firearm(s). Once the applicant has that letter, that letter must be presented within 30 days _of the date on the letter_ in order for the agency do the release otherwise the letter becomes invalid for the release. Here's why it takes so much time (months): while the applicant has a 30 day deadline (less in practice), the DOJ does not. The LEGR process is at the bottom in terms of priority. They can drag this process out for months without any penalty on them, and they do.


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## CCCSD (Mar 10, 2019)

That EMS world article on EMS carrying is pretty piss-poor. It provides nothing new.


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## Carlos Danger (Mar 11, 2019)

PotatoMedic said:


> My question is... (And yes I know it is California) by why does it take months for pd to release a firearm back to the rightful owner is situations like this?


Because they have little respect for property rights in general, and even less respect for the universal right to self defense.

Thats the short answer, anyway.


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## GMCmedic (Mar 11, 2019)

DragonClaw said:


> Who only owns one?


I lost the rest in a boating accident.


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## DragonClaw (Mar 11, 2019)

GMCmedic said:


> I lost the rest in a boating accident.


And the bump stocks. I'm still in shock. I can't talk about it. It's too much.


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## MSDeltaFlt (Mar 19, 2019)

DragonClaw said:


> (I'm a student, please correct me if I'm not right)
> 
> So say you respond to a scene, a victim of a is on the ground. I'm not sure if you guys check IDs or anything like that. But saying you did and he gives you a permit to carry a weapon. Maybe he used it, maybe not.
> 
> ...




Depending on the state it may or may not be different.  Down here in the Magnolia state firearms of any kind are not our concern to handle.  So we don't.  They are the concern of law enforcement.


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## DragonClaw (Mar 19, 2019)

MSDeltaFlt said:


> Depending on the state it may or may not be different.  Down here in the Magnolia state firearms of any kind are not our concern to handle.  So we don't.  They are the concern of law enforcement.


You're saying if there's an unconscious guy with some abdominal wound, you move the clothing and see a gun, holster or no,  you ignore it?


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## MSDeltaFlt (Mar 19, 2019)

DragonClaw said:


> You're saying if there's an unconscious guy with some abdominal wound, you move the clothing and see a gun, holster or no,  you ignore it?



EMS, fire, and law enforcement all have the same initial goal on scene with respect to our own individual expertise:  scene safety.  We hand the human body.  Fire handles fire safety.  Law enforcement violence and firearms.  If there is a patient that has a wound there had better be someone with the job task of enforcing the law kinda handy (nearby).  Let them handle the weapon and you handle the patient.


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## DragonClaw (Mar 19, 2019)

MSDeltaFlt said:


> EMS, fire, and law enforcement all have the same initial goal on scene with respect to our own individual expertise:  scene safety.  We hand the human body.  Fire handles fire safety.  Law enforcement violence and firearms.  If there is a patient that has a wound there had better be someone with the job task of enforcing the law kinda handy (nearby).  Let them handle the weapon and you handle the patient.


 I know it's a lot of hypotheticals, but assuming it wasn't violent crime,  but an accident or illness?


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## MSDeltaFlt (Mar 19, 2019)

Irrelevant.


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## DragonClaw (Mar 19, 2019)

MSDeltaFlt said:


> Irrelevant.


I mean, that was kind of the reason for my post.


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## DesertMedic66 (Mar 19, 2019)

MSDeltaFlt said:


> Irrelevant.


The thread was started along the lines of we respond to a patient down who is altered or unconscious and during our assessment a firearm is located, what would you do?

In my area PD is not routinely sent out on medical calls. If we call them it can take anywhere from a minute to 30 minutes for them to get to us. So I can leave the scene because of the gun but doing so will leave this patient without medical attention for possibly 30 minutes. I could continue my assessment and leave the gun where it is, however I will never advocate for leaving an altered or unconscious patient armed. The likelihood they could become responsive enough to grab it is too risky in my book. The last option is I could remove the firearm and secure it and then continue with my patient care.


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## DragonClaw (Mar 19, 2019)

DesertMedic66 said:


> The thread was started along the lines of we respond to a patient down who is altered or unconscious and during our assessment a firearm is located, what would you do?
> 
> In my area PD is not routinely sent out on medical calls. If we call them it can take anywhere from a minute to 30 minutes for them to get to us. So I can leave the scene because of the gun but doing so will leave this patient without medical attention for possibly 30 minutes. I could continue my assessment and leave the gun where it is, however I will never advocate for leaving an altered or unconscious patient armed. The likelihood they could become responsive enough to grab it is too risky in my book. The last option is I could remove the firearm and secure it and then continue with my patient care.



A medic personally told me about a time where a gang member got shot by a rival gang member. I guess the police did not search the patient, he woke up in the back of the ambulance, pulled a pistol out of his waistband and shot the medic. Most likely due to strange men standing over him and him having no idea what was going on He showed me the scar. Now, that's a slightly different situation, but I do think of it sometimes.


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## MSDeltaFlt (Mar 19, 2019)

DesertMedic66 said:


> The thread was started along the lines of we respond to a patient down who is altered or unconscious and during our assessment a firearm is located, what would you do?
> 
> In my area PD is not routinely sent out on medical calls. If we call them it can take anywhere from a minute to 30 minutes for them to get to us. So I can leave the scene because of the gun but doing so will leave this patient without medical attention for possibly 30 minutes. I could continue my assessment and leave the gun where it is, however I will never advocate for leaving an altered or unconscious patient armed. The likelihood they could become responsive enough to grab it is too risky in my book. The last option is I could remove the firearm and secure it and then continue with my patient care.



If law enforcement is on scene I let them handle the weapon.  If they're not I still don't handle the weapon.  I will transport the patient and let security at the receiving handle the weapon.


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## DesertMedic66 (Mar 19, 2019)

MSDeltaFlt said:


> If law enforcement is on scene I let them handle the weapon.  If they're not I still don't handle the weapon.  I will transport the patient and let security at the receiving handle the weapon.


IMPO that seems like a huge risk that can easily be mitigated by other simple means.


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## CCCSD (Mar 19, 2019)

Take the gun. Leave the cannolis.


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## Tigger (Mar 19, 2019)

Ideally law enforcement deals with it, unfortunately they aren't on most of our calls where guns are found. Most times the firearm is not a relevant detail to the call type. People with CCWs also get hurt and sick, I'm not waiting 20 minutes for the cops to take a handgun in it's holster out of someone's pants. It isn't a bomb, and this coming from someone who is not particularly into guns.

Altered patients with a non-psych complaint have shot responders in the past. https://www.firerescue1.com/fire-ems/articles/52628018-Ark-firefighter-shot-killed-on-EMS-call/


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## DrParasite (Mar 20, 2019)

DragonClaw said:


> A medic personally told me about a time where a gang member got shot by a rival gang member. I guess the police did not search the patient, he woke up in the back of the ambulance, pulled a pistol out of his waistband and shot the medic. Most likely due to strange men standing over him and him having no idea what was going on He showed me the scar. Now, that's a slightly different situation, but I do think of it sometimes.


that sounds..... interesting.... and disturbing..... where and when did this happen?  I would love to see the news article about it.

Paramedic have been shot by armed patients before: https://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/New-Details-Revealed-In-Ambulance-Shooting-217605601.html


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## DragonClaw (Mar 20, 2019)

DrParasite said:


> that sounds..... interesting.... and disturbing..... where and when did this happen?  I would love to see the news article about it.
> 
> Paramedic have been shot by armed patients before: https://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/New-Details-Revealed-In-Ambulance-Shooting-217605601.html


To make myself look fake,  honestly,  I don't have an official news story. The guy was older,  so I don't think it was recent.  Could be before I was born for all I know.  Could be be full of crap? Yes. Do I think he is? No. All I have is an anecdote. 

I don't remember the guys name or anything.  :^


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## MSDeltaFlt (Mar 20, 2019)

DesertMedic66 said:


> IMPO that seems like a huge risk that can easily be mitigated by other simple means.



Maybe I skipped a few steps regarding scene safety.  So let me be as precise as possible for our young OP regarding scene safety regarding this situation or any other situation anyone might encounter.  

The term "scene safety" is not a red flag meaning for you to run away.  It is more of a yellow flag requiring you to assess the situation.  As you approach the scene you are to ask yourself, "Is the scene safe?  Or is it unsafe?"  

If it is safe then proceed, not with blinders on or with paranoid eyes, but with your eyes open being aware of your surroundings.  Because as the other experienced providers on this forum can attest scene safety can change on you at a moment's notice.  So just be aware.

If the scene appears to be unsafe assess further.  Is it truly unsafe?  Or is it merely perceived to be unsafe?  If it is merely perceived to be unsafe then address the perception and continue to proceed with the aforementioned situational awareness.  Usually it is the result of someone's fears or misinterpretation.  A healthy dose of "Ooh-sah" can go a long way.

If it is unsafe then determine if there is anything within your scope of practice and your company's job description that you can do to make the scene safe?  If there is then make the scene safe and still continue with aforementioned situational awareness.

If there isn't anything you can do to make the scene safe then pause or make a tactical retreat and either call for or wait for those who can make the scene safe.

Bare in mind that these decisions happen quickly.  They happen either enroute to the scene or within a few seconds to a couple of minutes after arriving on scene.

Basically you are to do your job, let others do their job, always evaluate/continue to reevaluate,  and "Ooh-sah".


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## StCEMT (Mar 20, 2019)

Why would I wait for police who aren't there? I'm plenty comfortable handling weapons without cops present and I have a lock box that I can put it in. You don't have to be an expert to safely remove it.


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## PotatoMedic (Mar 21, 2019)

If the patient is armed, then that is a normal finding and I don't recommend unarming them as you may be arrested and sued.  If you find the patient unarmed you may need a few tourniquets.

Ok I'm leaving now...


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## E tank (Mar 21, 2019)

PotatoMedic said:


> If the patient is armed, then that is a normal finding and I don't recommend unarming them as you may be arrested and sued.  If you find the patient unarmed you may need a few tourniquets.
> 
> Ok I'm leaving now...



Cannot believe it was the 30th post....


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## RocketMedic (May 18, 2019)

Texan here. Lots of patients have guns. I leave them at home, with family, etc. if a CCW, I politely inform them that they can leave their gun at home or wherever safe and appropriate but that it will not be with them during their healthcare adventure. If unconscious, it gets secured and turned over to appropriate personnel as circumstances dictate. NOT family on scene in most cases, not putting a live weapon into a stressful situation when bad news might be coming.

Also a pain to put on a LUCAS with a 45 in a chest rig.


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## DesertMedic66 (May 18, 2019)

RocketMedic said:


> Texan here. Lots of patients have guns. I leave them at home, with family, etc. if a CCW, I politely inform them that they can leave their gun at home or wherever safe and appropriate but that it will not be with them during their healthcare adventure. If unconscious, it gets secured and turned over to appropriate personnel as circumstances dictate. NOT family on scene in most cases, not putting a live weapon into a stressful situation when bad news might be coming.
> 
> Also a pain to put on a LUCAS with a 45 in a chest rig.


That’s why I prefer 9mm


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## DrParasite (May 20, 2019)

RocketMedic said:


> but that it will not be with them during their healthcare adventure.


Interesting.... in the great state of texas, where everyone has a firearm, you are refusing to treat and transport a legally armed CCW holder, because they refuse to give up their firearm that they are legally allowed to have.


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## DragonClaw (May 20, 2019)

DrParasite said:


> Interesting.... in the great state of texas, where everyone has a firearm, you are refusing to treat and transport a legally armed CCW holder, because they refuse to give up their firearm that they are legally allowed to have.



Yeah,  it's not illegal to go into an ambulance with a gun.  And being Texan,  can confirm many of us have guns.  Heck,  even my guns have guns.


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## DrParasite (May 20, 2019)

Doesn't everyone have a gun in Texas?


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## RocketMedic (May 20, 2019)

DrParasite said:


> Interesting.... in the great state of texas, where everyone has a firearm, you are refusing to treat and transport a legally armed CCW holder, because they refuse to give up their firearm that they are legally allowed to have.



Yes, because they don't need to be armed (excepting legitimate duties) in a health-care setting. Hospitals are 30.06/07 zones, so it's not like it's legal or advisable to have it inside those facilities; the ambulance is a practical extension of that environment. 

They can be legally armed...until the medicine starts. Then, I want as few lethal tools around them as possible, because I don't know how they're going to react, and I really don't want or need a gun to my head.


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## StCEMT (May 20, 2019)

I'm about as pro gun as it gets and even I have told people to leave various weapons before we leave. It's just another thing I have to remember to inform staff of and I have enough **** to worry about as it is. I'm a believer in not creating more (unnecessary) work for myself.


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## DrParasite (May 21, 2019)

I knew this topic was discussed recently... here were some other opinions on this topic:


luke_31 said:


> I’m amazed at all the different responses to what to do with a CCW holder and their weapon.  If PD isn’t around you transport the patient with it.  Everywhere I’ve worked you can’t refuse transport because they have a firearm.  I get that firearms can be unsettling to those who aren’t familiar with them, but it’s not like in the news where the mere presence of a firearm is going to lead to bad things happening.  If you have an altered patient if it’s safe you try to remove the firearm, but sometimes you have to just work around it and try to keep the patient from pulling it out.  Oh and just an FYI just because PD is on scene doesn’t mean the patient isn’t going to pull out the firearm and try and shoot someone either.


and


GMCmedic said:


> In many states that would be a felony, in some states that is a justifiable reason for armed patient to shoot you. If the specific ambulance service has a policy against firearms in the ambulance, you can likely refuse service. If they don't, then I dont particularly care, nor do plan to enforce hospital policy if I don't work for them.


and


Jim37F said:


> But that's all predicated on the patient being Altered. Most trauma patients I've transported in reality have been BLS, isolated, A&Ox4.
> Someone who is not altered, just talk to them. If you're truly that uncomfortable that you feel a need to lock up the firearm, just ask them.
> But if they decline, and you do not have a written policy at your service (or even a local or state law you can name), then quite frankly your feelings do not matter. We're professionals, just treat the patient, not get hung up on something that was a non issue until you made it an issue. Especially if you're in an area where its routine and normal to carry.
> 
> If ever in doubt, you can always call your Supervisor and ask them.


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## SandpitMedic (May 29, 2019)

How did I miss this thread?


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## Tx1Nguyen (Jun 4, 2019)

Based off my own personal experience as the pt following a MVA, I told the responding LEO that I was carrying and told him the location of my weapon. He then secured and cleared my weapon, gave it to the Paramedics and they had the hospital police lock up my firearm when I got transported.


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## DragonClaw (Jun 4, 2019)

Tx1Nguyen said:


> Based off my own personal experience as the pt following a MVA, I told the responding LEO that I was carrying and told him the location of my weapon. He then secured and cleared my weapon, gave it to the Paramedics and they had the hospital police lock up my firearm when I got transported.


And getting your weapon after?


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## RocketMedic (Jun 4, 2019)

Yeah I want as few firearms in the back as possible.


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## DragonClaw (Jun 4, 2019)

RocketMedic said:


> Yeah I want as few firearms in the back as possible.



Having come from no experience aside from textbooks and a few anecdotes (AKA correct me if I'm wrong) , isn't it far more likely for you you meet Mr PCP or violent drunk than LTC/CCW/CHL (And then,  what about constitutional carry states) with broken arm or such? I'm armed dang near 24/7, never once in my life an ambulance.

But I guess if I was on 6th street in Austin and some barfight had us out there and the pt had a suspicious bulge,  okay.  But I guess I'm not as much concerned if it's a permitted individual and he's got a normal LOC and we're settling things. Maybe it's me not being concerned enough.


Not that I _Want_ a lot of firearms in the back,  because that does increase potential danger.


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## Tx1Nguyen (Jun 4, 2019)

DragonClaw said:


> And getting your weapon after?


I called the hospital police logistics office and they checked my ID, and gave it back.


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## Akulahawk (Jun 4, 2019)

Tx1Nguyen said:


> I called the hospital police logistics office and they checked my ID, and gave it back.


That's how it _should_ go but _some_ states don't think that's exactly OK. At least in California, a firearm that is given to Law Enforcement for safekeeping/storage must go through the LEGR (Law Enforcement Gun Release) process. Basically you fill out a form, pay a fee, have another background check done (as if you just bought your gun again), and once you receive a clearance letter in the mail, you can then take that to the LE Agency that's got your gun (during times they do gun returns) and retrieve it... A big headache.


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## DragonClaw (Jun 4, 2019)

Akulahawk said:


> That's how it _should_ go but _some_ states don't think that's exactly OK. At least in California, a firearm that is given to Law Enforcement for safekeeping/storage must go through the LEGR (Law Enforcement Gun Release) process. Basically you fill out a form, pay a fee, have another background check done (as if you just bought your gun again), and once you receive a clearance letter in the mail, you can then take that to the LE Agency that's got your gun (during times they do gun returns) and retrieve it... A big headache.


Amen.


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## Tx1Nguyen (Jun 4, 2019)

Akulahawk said:


> That's how it _should_ go but _some_ states don't think that's exactly OK. At least in California, a firearm that is given to Law Enforcement for safekeeping/storage must go through the LEGR (Law Enforcement Gun Release) process. Basically you fill out a form, pay a fee, have another background check done (as if you just bought your gun again), and once you receive a clearance letter in the mail, you can then take that to the LE Agency that's got your gun (during times they do gun returns) and retrieve it... A big headache.



I mean I see why they’d do that. At the time of my accident I was a patrol Supervisor with a Private Security company. I gave them my Texas DPS Commissioned Officer license as well.


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## DragonClaw (Jun 4, 2019)

Tx1Nguyen said:


> I mean I see why they’d do that. At the time of my accident I was a patrol Supervisor with a Private Security company. I gave them my Texas DPS Commissioned Officer license as well.


I can't.  You've done nothing wrong,  you're not a criminal because you need an ambulance.  It's yours,  it should be simple to get it back or they're literall thieves.

It's nice and all you've got more papers, but that shouldn't affect anything.


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## Tx1Nguyen (Jun 4, 2019)

DragonClaw said:


> I can't.  You've done nothing wrong,  you're not a criminal because you need an ambulance.  It's yours,  it should be simple to get it back or they're literall thieves.
> 
> It's nice and all you've got more papers, but that shouldn't affect anything.



For me it was simple as requesting it back. For others it seems like buying a firearm all over again.


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## DrParasite (Jun 6, 2019)

DragonClaw said:


> I can't.  You've done nothing wrong,  you're not a criminal because you need an ambulance.  It's yours,  it should be simple to get it back or they're literall thieves.


In theory, yes, however from a liability potential, it's much more complicated from their point of view.

Hypothetically speaking, if they give you back your firearm, and you are a convicted felon then they have provided a firearm to a bad guy, and could be liable for any actions that you commit with it.  Or if you shouldn't have had a firearm to begin with, because you have two outstanding warrants for domestic abuse, so if they give you back your gun, and you use it to shoot someone, whose to blame?  Also, many civilian security agencies have a less than stellar lost and found program (i won't even go into my story about when hospital security found my wallet, and that same hospital security didn't bother to even look me up in the hospital directory to tell me they found it....) , so they don't want the liability for giving a firearm, so they turn it over to PD, which adds another level of security that you need to go through to obtain your property.

While it sounds like a simple process, the lawyers in this country have complicated things greatly.


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## SnakeDocNC (Jun 9, 2019)

If the pt is a ccw holder and his chief complaint or injury is not near the weapon then work around it to provide life saving interventions. If possible ask the pt to make the weapon safe as quickly as possible. 

Now if the pt is unconscious and there is no threat around, ie I find the weapon concealed during you assessment, then I have no problem removing the weapon making it safe and turning it over to Leo when they arrive. I have a higher than normal knowledge of firearms so I am comfortable with this. If you are not familiar with firearms don’t touch them. 

Follow your state and district protocol. Keep yourself and tour partner safe. Don’t make a mountain out of a mole hill. In today’s EMS almost the only time you will find a weapon when LEO not already on scene is with a ccw


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## CCCSD (Jun 9, 2019)

You can also find them on criminals, thugs, dopers, etc...


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