# Exactly when/how to use the siren?



## LightItUp98 (Oct 28, 2014)

Hey guys, just started driving "hot" with lights and sirens and I was reaching out to you on how you typically use the siren. It sounds easy enough, but I've been told by my partner jokingly that I use it "crazily" and that I use too much air horn (electric and the REAL ones haha). I've honestly been modeling my siren work off of videos like the one below where I'll tap the manual a lot before coming to a light then switch really fast between wail and yelp a couple times and hit the real air horn for a good 3 seconds while going through the light. Stop signs I just tap the manual a lot with a bit of the electronic horn. Is there anything wrong with this? Is it better to just stick to one or two tones and only hit the horns while there's an obstruction? Any help would be great.

Here's the video,




Skip to about 2 minutues 40 seconds to see what I usually do haha.


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## STXmedic (Oct 28, 2014)

I think you're putting a lot of thought into something pretty straightforward. 

Personally, I'll turn on the siren to the first tone (wail I think it's called?) and leave it there. I'll hit the airhorn (and maybe change the siren to the next tone) if I'm coming up to an intersection and people aren't stopping, or if somebody is doing something stupid in front of me. That's it.


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 28, 2014)

Wail as the normal driving tone. When I'm coming to an intersection I'll switch to yelp. If it's a major intersection I may tap the airhorn depending on the time of day and traffic. 

If I get behind someone who won't pull over I'll change between wail and yelp a couple of times and hit the airhorn and the growler. If the car still won't pull over I'll turn my lights and siren off, pass on the right side, and then once I get infront of the vehicle I'll turn my lights and siren back on.


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## cprted (Oct 28, 2014)

I watched the video from 2:30-3:30 ... yeah, bit much with the siren for the actual benefit you get out of the noisemaker ... biggest issue I saw in the minute I watched, blowing through red lights ... seriously dangerous stuff!  Drivers aren't paying attention at the best of times ... Most agencies mandate a complete stop before proceeding to a red.  I can tell you one night a while back I was glad I did or I would have been t-boned by a car I didn't see until it blasted across my nose doing 45 mph.

As far as what I do,  I put in on wail and switch to yelp as I approach intersections or other hazards I switch it to yelp.  If I want to make a little extra noise as I roll into the intersection, I might hit the hyperyelp.  I'll use the electronic horn if I'm stuck behind someone who hasn't noticed me.

Here is a good training video to watch about sirens and how useful they actually are.


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 28, 2014)

I just watched the video and I would be very annoyed if my partner used the sirens like that. 

Also why on earth was this guy/gal stopping and clearing traffic when they had a green light but completely blowing through red lights without stopping


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## Jim37F (Oct 28, 2014)

Check your local and state laws and dept policies (your dept can always be more restrictive but never more lax) 

But here in California,  code 3 requires the use of the lights AND sirens at all times.

In the rear world there are a FEW times some drivers will use discretion and shut off the sirens when going through residential neighborhoods at night....but guess who's fault it is if you collide with someone going through an intersection and you didn't stop at the stop sign?

Code 3 merely requests the right of way, you can never assume they see you, especially when traveling perpendiculally on a road crossing in front of you. 

Tell your partner that you're simply looking out for yours and his safety, and besides it's your license/cert on the line if you get into an accident while driving,  not his, so could he kindly worry more about whether the right side is clear?


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## Handsome Robb (Oct 28, 2014)

The change is what people notice, not the siren itself. With that said sounding like a bad dubstep song with air horns blaring doesn't do much good. I'll use wail/yelp to get people to move if they aren't yielding then usually the phaser at lights and maybe the air horn if people are failing to yield. 

When it's early or late I'm very guilty of running lights only and only using the siren at intersections.


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 28, 2014)

Handsome Robb said:


> The change is what people notice, not the siren itself. With that said sounding like a bad dubstep song with air horns blaring doesn't do much good. I'll use wail/yelp to get people to move if they aren't yielding then usually the phaser at lights and maybe the air horn if people are failing to yield.
> 
> When it's early or late I'm very guilty of running lights only and only using the siren at intersections.


Hell, when its very early or very late I don't even go code most of the time. I'll turn on the lights for a quick second to change traffic lights green for me and then turn the lights off haha


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## Ewok Jerky (Oct 28, 2014)

Yeah don't worry about it so much. Especially while you're new, focus on driving safe.  Ask your partner to operate the siren, then you can worry about not causing an accident and hear how s/he operates.  Also, didn't you have an FTO?


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## JPINFV (Oct 28, 2014)

Jim37F said:


> Check your local and state laws and dept policies (your dept can always be more restrictive but never more lax)
> 
> But here in California,  code 3 requires the use of the lights AND sirens at all times.


No it doesn't. A forward facing burning red light with a siren as needed is all that is required for the exemptions to the traffic code. Lights and sirens, however, are required to demand the right of way from other vehicles. 



> In the rear world there are a FEW times some drivers will use discretion and shut off the sirens when going through residential neighborhoods at night....but guess who's fault it is if you collide with someone going through an intersection and you didn't stop at the stop sign?



Guess who's fault it is if an ambulance and a car collide after the ambulance ran a stop sign with their lights and sirens on.


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## Tigger (Oct 28, 2014)

Mmmm I do love me some euro hi/lo action mixed with some real airhorn. As said, changing tones is important but if you keep doing over and over again that's just annoying.


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## gotbeerz001 (Oct 28, 2014)

You are exempt from certain laws when on a call. You are NOT exempt from using due regard. If you are going to exercise that exemption, you need to have all warning devices operating. By law, the only required warning device is a steady, forward facing red lamp visible to 1000 feet.

Make double sure that one works during rig check.


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 28, 2014)

gotshirtz001 said:


> You are exempt from certain laws when on a call. You are NOT exempt from using due regard. If you are going to exercise that exemption, you need to have all warning devices operating. By law, the only required warning device is a steady, forward facing red lamp visible to 1000 feet.
> 
> Make double sure that one works during rig check.


By law for CA. CA are the only rigs I have ever seen with the steady burning lights on all emergency vehicles.


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## gotbeerz001 (Oct 28, 2014)

DesertEMT66 said:


> By law for CA. CA are the only rigs I have ever seen with the steady burning lights on all emergency vehicles.


Correct. This may be a CA specific law.


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## DieselBolus (Oct 28, 2014)

LightItUp98 said:


> Hey guys, just started driving "hot" with lights and sirens and I was reaching out to you on how you typically use the siren. It sounds easy enough, but I've been told by my partner jokingly that I use it "crazily" and that I use too much air horn (electric and the REAL ones haha). I've honestly been modeling my siren work off of videos like the one below where I'll tap the manual a lot before coming to a light then switch really fast between wail and yelp a couple times and hit the real air horn for a good 3 seconds while going through the light. Stop signs I just tap the manual a lot with a bit of the electronic horn. Is there anything wrong with this? Is it better to just stick to one or two tones and only hit the horns while there's an obstruction? Any help would be great.
> 
> Here's the video,
> 
> ...



Snapping the knob off your siren console: Ultimate Whacker


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## Tigger (Oct 29, 2014)

I attempted to watch that video. Between the horrifying noises being emmited by the ambulance and the horrendous driving, well yea. No thanks.


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## JPINFV (Oct 29, 2014)

gotshirtz001 said:


> Correct. This may be a CA specific law.


There's no "may" about it... the burning red light law is California specific.


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## Chris07 (Oct 29, 2014)

I'd love to be able to use my electric horn in heavy intersections or to give a little "extra notice" to people refusing to yield, however the ambulance I'm on is an older model and requires that I turn off my siren to use the electric horn. Needless to say I don't use my horn at all. The Wail/Yelp switch seems to work well enough.

There's no need to cycle through all the tones and blast the horn, All it does is make you look angry.

PS: That's some awesome sound insulation the ambulance in that video has. Goodness my ears are bleeding just from watching that video. Some of our brand new units have such great insulation that you can almost forget the siren is even on.


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## Ewok Jerky (Oct 29, 2014)

I just watched the video and have a few comments.

-this is a good video showing how NOT to drive code 3. He is doing it just about completely wrong.

-he's got yelp/wail backwards. You should be on wail when cruising and yelp when clearing intersections.

-be VERY cautious if you choose to pass on the right.

-waaay to much airhorn.

-don't blow through stop signs, ever. Not only is this a@@hat blowing stop signs, he gives no warning and only roots toots the siren as he is entering the intersection.

-If you are cruising at night in residential area with no sirens, no need to toot at cars that have already yielded.

-not in the video but a special pet peeve of mine: if you approach an intersection with medians and the cars in front of you have no where to yield to, please just shut down and wait for the green.  Don't park behind a line of cars that cannot move and blast your airhorn at them.


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## Ewok Jerky (Oct 29, 2014)

Oh and also, code 3 driving is a team sport, if my partner was filming instead of helping clear intersections, moniter radio traffic, operate the MDT and sirens, I would slap the phone out of his/her hands...or make then drive.


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## vcuemt (Oct 29, 2014)

I use the standard siren (wail) and switch to the two-tone when I approach an intersection. if it's a particularly busy intersection, it's been red for a while, or anything else where I'm there for more than a split second, I'll then switch to the phaser just to make sure I have everyone's attention before moving on. One of our ambulances has a device that shoots bass into the ground (thumper? pounder? I always forget the name) so that cars around you will vibrate and it's so cool I use it whenever I can. I only ever use the airhorn when I want to make extra sure everyone knows I'm around, but I mostly do 911 at night so I try and lay off. I will use the airhorn to ensure that a driver who blazes through an intersection after I've arrived knows that he done f'ed up though.


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## exodus (Oct 29, 2014)

DieselBolus said:


> Snapping the knob off your siren console: Ultimate Whacker



I switch back and forth between wail and yelp quickly when we don't have a dual tone with an airhorn in our unit.  It works just as good if not better than an airhorn.


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## Angel (Oct 29, 2014)

yeeaaa, do not do what is shown in that video. it was over kill. any quite frankly annoying. a simple wail until say 100 ft before an intersection and switching to yelp should be fine. if cars arent moving and youre wailing, pop it to yelp and maybe a couple air horns and if they still arent moving. wait.
all the knob work this person was doing (imo) is more distracting than anything. what was said about lights but no sirens (at least in CA) is true, if you hit someone or vice cersa and dont have sirens you are at fault no questions asked. if you push someone out into an intersection and they hit someone or vice versa, your fault. 
if you have lights and sirens and pass on the right and someone hits you? again, your fault. its a lot to take in, the more you do it the better youll get, but as was said. BE SAFE. code 3 driving only saves seconds, and those seconds arent worth a death or injury.


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## Nightmare (Oct 29, 2014)

just keep in mind the more you mess with the siren the more you stress out drivers in front of you. people already lose their minds when they see an ambulance coming up behind them running hot, keep it simple, and in my opinion, no horns of any nature unless somebody won't move over. I personally switch between wail and yelp and at intersections i alternate between the two with a short pause. People recognize a change in pitch and frequency and that grabs their attention. I think how i do it is a sort of passive aggressive way and less stressful for other drivers, some of the people i run with disagree so they either suck it up or drive 

oh and stop at intersections, the driver of the video you posted would never ever be at the wheel of my ambulance he will get in an accident...its only a matter of time.


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## DrParasite (Oct 30, 2014)

to reiterate what others say, check your state laws.  1) never pass on the right with your lights and sirens on (as people are supposed to pull to the right, and when you are passing on the right, can you see what can happen) 2) use the "wail" sound when you are driving long distances, and the other tones or airhorn for intersections.  look up how far and fast a siren travels, different tones go for different distances 3) consider weather and other obstructions 4) some state laws say if your lights are on, your sirens are on, regardless of time or location 5) don't blow through red lights, stop signs, and always expect people to do the unexpected, and if they crash, you will often be considered at fault 6) if it's gridlock, pushing people into an intersection or off the road doesn't help the situation, and infact endangers everyone


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## irishboxer384 (Oct 30, 2014)

Makes me wonder why an in-depth emergency driving course isn't part of the requirements for EMS in the US. Driving is a skill that takes alot of practice/experience/education to be GOOD at, so if someone is behind the wheel of an emergency vehicle it stands to reason they should be better than the average driver.


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## vcuemt (Oct 30, 2014)

irishboxer384 said:


> Makes me wonder why an in-depth emergency driving course isn't part of the requirements for EMS in the US. Driving is a skill that takes alot of practice/experience/education to be GOOD at, so if someone is behind the wheel of an emergency vehicle it stands to reason they should be better than the average driver.


Is this not something that other states do? You're required to take an EVOC course prior to driving an ambulance in VA.


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## irishboxer384 (Oct 30, 2014)

vcuemt said:


> Is this not something that other states do? You're required to take an EVOC course prior to driving an ambulance in VA.



With regards to advanced driving...an 8 hour- 20 hour course doesn't cut it is what I meant, of course what law dictates is 'enough' and what in reality is 'enough' are two v different things. The UK legally required course is 3 weeks of driving at a cost of roughly $2000-4000, it would be good if colleges were able to absorb these costs in the same way UK universities are doing. Just another 'string to the bow' to prove American EMS is a skill worth investing in


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 30, 2014)

vcuemt said:


> Is this not something that other states do? You're required to take an EVOC course prior to driving an ambulance in VA.


Negative. In CA it is up to the employer of they will provide us with a class or not. Some employers have a couple of day long classes while others have a "don't go too fast, stop at every red light, and don't pass on the right".


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## medichopeful (Oct 30, 2014)

On the way to an emergency call, I'll use the "normal" siren sound (I have no idea what its official name is).  When I'm going through an intersection, I'll slow down or stop to clear the intersection and switch to another, incredibly annoying siren sound (maybe it's called "yelp?" I just cycle through with the "manual" button and then hit the "off" switch to silence it.)  Sometimes I'll use the air horn when going through an intersection, other times I won't.

Going to the hospital when the choice is mine, the VAST majority of the time the siren is in the "off" position and the lights are also in the "off" position.

Using lights and sirens is incredibly dangerous and WAY overused.  It annoys me to no end to see ambulances coming into the ER with their lights and sirens on for something that doesn't warrant their use.  Is using lights and sirens fun?  Yes.  Are they necessary?  Very, very rarely.  The sooner you realize this, the better.  The less you use them, the safer you'll be.

Remember, in the vast majority of cases, if seconds matter, the patient is not going to survive.


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## avdrummerboy (Oct 30, 2014)

CA state law states "Every authorized emergency vehicle shall be equipped with at least one steady burning red warning lamp visible from at least 1,000 feet to the front of the vehicle to be used as provided in this code. In addition, authorized emergency vehicles may display revolving, flashing, or steady red warning lights to the front, sides or rear of the vehicles." 25252 CVC. That's all that is technically required to go 'code 3' in CA. The rest of the vehicle code is littered with verbiage the likes of 'as may be reasonably necessary' and 'a siren shall not be sounded by an authorized emergency vehicle except when required.' In other words, the use of a siren is as much as discouraged by the CA state vehicle code, and with good reason, the PSA above shows how ineffective the siren can be. So, code 3 in CA is NOT both lights and sirens, it's merely one measly light. Now, if it's busy, I'll absolutely run with both on because IF something were to happen and you end up in court, if they ask if I was going code 3 and if I was using my lights and siren, it looks better to say yes than to have to sit and justify why I didn't have the siren sounding.

That long winded section being said. Siren use, see above, use as little as needed. You'll learn your way of doing things over time, but for me wail, or tone 1 for most of the time, then change the tone to yelp, or tone 2 when going through a red light or stop sign. Air horn as necessary and required for idiot drivers! Once, there is little to no traffic, off goes the whistles and lights only. Another note, ALWAYS at least slow to a crawl if not stop for a red light or stop sign. Can't tell you how many times I would have been killed by a dumba** driver blowing a light or sign had I not slowed or stopped. Here in CA CHP says slow to 15 mph before proceeding, but most companies are going to want a full stop.


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## gotbeerz001 (Oct 30, 2014)

If you are in CA and you are equipped with lights and sirens, you had better be using them at the time you are involved in an accident. 

The single steady-burn forward-facing red lamp is all that is required by law, but if you have other warning devices, you'd better use em. 

In short, you need to do everything in your ability to warn other drivers you are approaching. 

Your argument will fail in court.


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## JPINFV (Oct 30, 2014)

gotshirtz001 said:


> If you are in CA and you are equipped with lights and sirens, you had better be using them at the time you are involved in an accident.
> 
> The single steady-burn forward-facing red lamp is all that is required, but if you have other warning devices, you'd better use em.
> 
> Your argument will fail in court.


The reality is that if you're in an accident while using the exemptions provided under the vehicle code for code 3 operations, you're pretty much screwed anyways.


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## avdrummerboy (Oct 30, 2014)

My argument? All I was saying is that if anything happens, in court you're going to be asked if you were driving code 3? If yes, were you using your lights AND siren? If you answer no to the siren, you'll have a lot of explaining to do as to why not. Better to use it and not really need to than not (within reason of course.)


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## vcuemt (Oct 31, 2014)

irishboxer384 said:


> With regards to advanced driving...an 8 hour- 20 hour course doesn't cut it is what I meant, of course what law dictates is 'enough' and what in reality is 'enough' are two v different things. The UK legally required course is 3 weeks of driving at a cost of roughly $2000-4000, it would be good if colleges were able to absorb these costs in the same way UK universities are doing. Just another 'string to the bow' to prove American EMS is a skill worth investing in


What exactly are they going to teach me in 3 weeks at a cost of $2,000-4,000 that I can't learn in 16 hours?

Driving is not that difficult.


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## JPINFV (Oct 31, 2014)

vcuemt said:


> Driving is not that difficult.


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## vcuemt (Oct 31, 2014)

JPINFV said:


>


I'd link the "non-ambulance accidents and crashes Compilation" video from just yesterday but YouTube won't let me upload 10,000 hours of footage.

What's your point?


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## irishboxer384 (Oct 31, 2014)

vcuemt said:


> I'd link the "non-ambulance accidents and crashes Compilation" video from just yesterday but YouTube won't let me upload 10,000 hours of footage.
> 
> What's your point?



A good point from the video would be that driving a non-emergency vehicle safely at speed with all the usual hazards is difficult? If your tools as a medical responder are your equipment, your brain and your vehicle then you should strive to be the best at all 3. 16 hours is nothing, jesus people teach CPR in 6 hour classes which pretty much involves pumping a chest and breathing...

Added to the fact if quality and lengthy training was giving across the US for driving emergency vehicles then he probably wouldn't be asking questions about his sirens.


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## Ewok Jerky (Oct 31, 2014)

vcuemt said:


> I'd link the "non-ambulance accidents and crashes Compilation" video from just yesterday but YouTube won't let me upload 10,000 hours of footage.
> 
> What's your point?



I get the joke but you''re calling the kettle black.

Driving in general is dangerous.  Driving an ambulance is even more so. It's longer and heavier, top heavy, giant blind spots, you may be distracted by the radio. Using one hand to work the lights or siren, plus your adreniline and (perhaps) concern of response time or nature of the call.  Take all that and add driving over the speed limit, taking on-coming, crossing multi lane intersections. Think that's easy? Ok now add the general public reacting to your lights and sirens, the drivers in your "10000 hour) YouTube.

Driving is the most dangerous part of our job, don't ever forget that. We spend a lot of time out there and you need to stay on your toes.


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## gotbeerz001 (Oct 31, 2014)

avdrummerboy said:


> My argument? All I was saying is that if anything happens, in court you're going to be asked if you were driving code 3? If yes, were you using your lights AND siren? If you answer no to the siren, you'll have a lot of explaining to do as to why not. Better to use it and not really need to than not (within reason of course.)



What I'm saying had more to do with your first statements (paraphrasing):
- all that is required is a solid red lamp
- the State is discouraging siren use

The vehicle code allows exemptions when responding Code 3. In order to exercise these exemptions, you must be assigned to a call in a Code 3 status. The solid red lamp is THE MINIMUM regarding warning devices required to be considered code 3 capable. If your agency/company chooses to add additional equipment, that is now the level to which that apparatus shall operate while driving Code 3. 

All that is being said regarding siren use is that an equipped vehicle shall not use a siren in situations other than to warn others while responding to a call. If the apparatus has been dispatched to a call and the operator chooses to silence the siren, they are opening themselves and the company up to additional liabilities should there be an incident. In the eyes of the State, responding Code 3 is a situation where an exempt vehicle is "required" to use all equipped and available warning devices. 

In my understanding, everything you said is misinterpreted and is being used to justify whatever driving habits you choose to use. You make it seem like there is much more latitude given to the responding unit than the law intends to give. If called into court, your argument will fail.


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## JPINFV (Oct 31, 2014)

vcuemt said:


> I'd link the "non-ambulance accidents and crashes Compilation" video from just yesterday but YouTube won't let me upload 10,000 hours of footage.
> 
> What's your point?




While I agree that, at least for me, driving isn't that difficult (heck, 14 years of driving and zero accidents) for me, I don't share your faith with the rest of humanity.


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## vcuemt (Oct 31, 2014)

beano said:


> I get the joke but you''re calling the kettle black.
> 
> Driving in general is dangerous.  Driving an ambulance is even more so. It's longer and heavier, top heavy, giant blind spots, you may be distracted by the radio. Using one hand to work the lights or siren, plus your adreniline and (perhaps) concern of response time or nature of the call.  Take all that and add driving over the speed limit, taking on-coming, crossing multi lane intersections. Think that's easy? Ok now add the general public reacting to your lights and sirens, the drivers in your "10000 hour) YouTube.
> 
> Driving is the most dangerous part of our job, don't ever forget that. We spend a lot of time out there and you need to stay on your toes.


Driving is one of the most dangerous things Americans do on a daily basis.

But dangerous /= difficult. That's _my _point.

There are a few very simple rules to follow when driving [an ambulance]. I don't think there's content enough to fill three weeks. Driving is not calculating the trajectory of each body around you based on Newtonian physics. It does not require complicated procedures, equations, or even complicated thought. Driving is, by and large, an instinctual procedure once you've been doing it for a while. It is muscle memory. None of this is to say that it isn't a dangerous process - it obviously is since as risk-taking behaviors go it's top of the list - but what exactly are you going to learn about driving an emergency vehicle in particular that you can't be taught in 16 hours? Perhaps if you're teaching someone to drive _full stop_ then three weeks is appropriate? But before I started driving ambulances I had been driving for years. I knew what there was to know about the mechanics of driving, the rules of the road, etc. All I had to be taught was "this is how driving emergency vehicles is different".

Now! what I think the OP of this particular line of discussion might not realize/not be saying is that maybe [maybe!] the UK includes as part of their version of EVOC some of what we would normally do during driver preception. That can be a drawn out process at some companies. That would perhaps account for the difference in time.

And I should add I don't think any of us really disagree. We're just bored on the internet so we're shooting the ****.


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## irishboxer384 (Oct 31, 2014)

vcuemt said:


> Driving is one of the most dangerous things Americans do on a daily basis.
> it obviously is since as risk-taking behaviors go it's top of the list - but what exactly are you going to learn about driving an emergency vehicle in particular that you can't be taught in 16 hours? Perhaps if you're teaching someone to drive _full stop_ then three weeks is appropriate? But before I started driving ambulances I had been driving for years. I knew what there was to know about the mechanics of driving, the rules of the road, etc. All I had to be taught was "this is how driving emergency vehicles is different".
> 
> Now! what I think the OP of this particular line of discussion might not realize/not be saying is that maybe [maybe!] the UK includes as part of their version of EVOC some of what we would normally do during driver preception. That can be a drawn out process at some companies. That would perhaps account for the difference in time.
> ...



I disagree 100%. I can tell you there are driving tests for cars that are more difficult to pass in Africa and other parts of the world than the USA. In certain agencies in the military/intelligence  world there are 3 month long driving courses- JUST driving, JUST cars...on public roads at speeds similar to ambulances and of course more. One of the more secretive British outfits many people fail the course SOLELY on the driving part.

I've completed about 30 weeks of various advanced driving courses and I would not call driving easy at all, and certainly it is a skill that fades if you are not practising certain manoeuvres etc. I don't by any means want to sound arrogant here, or disrespectful- but it could be the case that there are things that you just haven't learned and are not aware about? I don't want to create a list or discuss everything that should be known, but the last course I gave was in a 3rd world nation and it was 5 days long...and that was cutting it shorter than it ought to have been!


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## Ewok Jerky (Oct 31, 2014)

1- does anybody have a separate control for a "steady burning amber lamp"? all i have is primary and secondary, and sometimes strobe.

2- i am sure your company policy requires more than the state outlines

3- why would ever want to roll code3 half a@@ed?  are you "kinda" requesting the right of way?


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## JPINFV (Oct 31, 2014)

beano said:


> 1- does anybody have a separate control for a "steady burning amber lamp"? all i have is primary and secondary, and sometimes strobe.


 
I've never seen a separate control for the burning red lamp specifically, however if you ever look at an emergency vehicle responding in California, you will always see one red lamp that's steady, even if the rest are flashing.



> 3- why would ever want to roll code3 half a@@ed?  are you "kinda" requesting the right of way?


 
...because it's a bit of a **** move to go screaming through a neighborhood at 2 in the morning with the siren on when no one else is out on the road. Proper defensive driving is going to do a whole lot more to prevent accidents than a siren.


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## avdrummerboy (Oct 31, 2014)

Which is why I said, use ALL of it, because if the poo hits the fan, you better bet that I'm gonna go in there saying that I had everything on and did everything in my power to warn other drivers of my presence. Sure there are unavoidable scenarios but as I mentioned I've saved my bacon many times by using everything that the rig has on it and being safe in driving!


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## avdrummerboy (Oct 31, 2014)

Every rig is different, most of ours have primary, which is all lights including the one that the law required and secondaries which is basically a traffic warning setting. The whole point of this is you don't absolutely NEED to have the siren blaring for every minute of code 3 driving, it can be turned off as necessary!


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 31, 2014)

JPINFV said:


> ...because it's a bit of a **** move to go screaming through a neighborhood at 2 in the morning with the siren on when no one else is out on the road. Proper defensive driving is going to do a whole lot more to prevent accidents than a siren.



This. There is no reason to wake up hundreds of people at 2am with your siren on in a neighborhood. That is a **** move that will not make you very many friends in the community.


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## Ewok Jerky (Oct 31, 2014)

I was talking in general (ie. earlier conversation regarding CA Code 3 laws).  Why use lights if no sirens?

Yes, at 2am on a residential street, sure, no need for sirens (or lights for that matter).

My point is if you don't need one, you probably don't need the other.


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## TransportJockey (Oct 31, 2014)

beano said:


> I was talking in general (ie. earlier conversation regarding CA Code 3 laws).  Why use lights if no sirens?
> 
> Yes, at 2am on a residential street, sure, no need for sirens (or lights for that matter).
> 
> My point is if you don't need one, you probably don't need the other.


Interstate or highways is a good point for lights but no siren. Chances are if youre going sixty mph or above, you're outrunning your siren


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## JPINFV (Oct 31, 2014)

beano said:


> I was talking in general (ie. earlier conversation regarding CA Code 3 laws).  Why use lights if no sirens?
> 
> Yes, at 2am on a residential street, sure, no need for sirens (or lights for that matter).
> 
> My point is if you don't need one, you probably don't need the other.


 ...because minimum traffic is still minimum and they're likely respond to the lights. Stick the siren on manual mode and use PRN.


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## JPINFV (Oct 31, 2014)

TransportJockey said:


> Interstate or highways is a good point for lights but no siren. Chances are if youre going sixty mph or above, you're outrunning your siren


 To be fair, at least in my experience, if you're on the freeway going 60 mph, you're going less than the speed of traffic, thus making L/S unnecessary. Furthermore, at that speed if I'm gong the speed of traffic, I don't want people moving out of my way. Having people merging at that speed will more likely than not slow you down.


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## TransportJockey (Oct 31, 2014)

JPINFV said:


> To be fair, at least in my experience, if you're on the freeway going 60 mph, you're going less than the speed of traffic, thus making L/S unnecessary. Furthermore, at that speed if I'm gong the speed of traffic, I don't want people moving out of my way. Having people merging at that speed will more likely than not slow you down.


Freeway yes, but I have highways and state roads wirh minimal traffic with speed limits of 65 and above. Lights only works for those situations for us


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## gotbeerz001 (Oct 31, 2014)

DesertEMT66 said:


> This. There is no reason to wake up hundreds of people at 2am with your siren on in a neighborhood. That is a **** move that will not make you very many friends in the community.


Agreed. However, at 2am in neighborhoods, I doubt you will neither be needing to request the right of way nor exercise these exemptions much. If you are following the rules of the road and able to respond efficiently, lights and sirens are not required.


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## gotbeerz001 (Oct 31, 2014)

TransportJockey said:


> Interstate or highways is a good point for lights but no siren. Chances are if youre going sixty mph or above, you're outrunning your siren


If traffic is moving, lights and sirens are off.


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## avdrummerboy (Oct 31, 2014)

Again, depends on company policy too, for us if we're responding to a code 3 call, we have to be in code 3 mode, with at least lights on, siren as necessary.


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## Mufasa556 (Oct 31, 2014)

beano said:


> 1- does anybody have a separate control for a "steady burning amber lamp"? all i have is primary and secondary, and sometimes strobe.



I can shut down everything and leave only the steady red's on. I'd never run like that since it affords you zero intersection warning. 

The company I work had us watch a CEVO video and then just handed us the keys. Luckily I have a family member who was an EVOC instructor and had partners early on that taught me how to drive. 

I've worked with people who drive the rig like they're cruising in their Civic. I used to record most of our Code 3 calls and should make a highlight reel of the worst transports. Guys that would always pass on the right. Guys who would push cars into the intersections. Guys that would scream down the middle lane of a three lane road, three lanes in each direction, just jamming on the airhorn, and my personal favorite ever, we're coming east on a three lane road and need to make a right at the next intersection. All vehicles have pulled to the right and the left two lanes are open. Partner pulls up behind the 5 or more cars pulled over and starts laying on the airhorn. They're already pulled over! They can't pull over any farther!


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## Chris07 (Oct 31, 2014)

Mufasa556 said:


> The company I work had us watch a CEVO video and then just handed us the keys.





Mufasa556 said:


> I've worked with people who drive the rig like they're cruising in their Civic. I used to record most of our Code 3 calls and should make a highlight reel of the worst transports. Guys that would always pass on the right. Guys who would push cars into the intersections. Guys that would scream down the middle lane of a three lane road, three lanes in each direction, just jamming on the airhorn, and my personal favorite ever, we're coming east on a three lane road and need to make a right at the next intersection. All vehicles have pulled to the right and the left two lanes are open. Partner pulls up behind the 5 or more cars pulled over and starts laying on the airhorn. They're already pulled over! They can't pull over any farther!



I guess you get what you pay for. If you even have the remote possibility of going code 3, I feel that it's incredibly irresponsible for companies to not put you through some form of a proper EVOC course. Watching a video and asking "Any questions?" is simply not enough.


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 31, 2014)

Chris07 said:


> I guess you get what you pay for. If you even have the remote possibility of going code 3, I feel that it's incredibly irresponsible for companies to not put you through some form of a proper EVOC course. Watching a video and asking "Any questions?" is simply not enough.


Welcome to a majority of IFT companies in SoCal haha


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## Kevinf (Oct 31, 2014)

In PA the EVOC course was really basic... parallel parking, backing up without hitting a cone behind you, driving down a narrow row of cones. No instructions on lights/siren, radio, or intersection clearing, or safely parking on busy throughfares (interstate, etc) or blocking traffic. Classroom lectures basically tell you not to hit anything. Not much more than a glorified driving test you'd get in your car for your first license. There was DEFINITELY a lot of room for improvement to the course. There are quite a few things I would do differently if I were in charge of both the EMT BLS and EVOC (now EMSVO) courses offered.


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## Nightmare (Oct 31, 2014)

My company policy is if lights are on, siren is on...however late at night if I'm going hot...siren only comes on when I am going through intersections that I either A) don't have the right of way B) there is the possibility of a care making a right on red, then once I have cleared the intersection and there are no cars i need to alert that i am approaching, the siren gets turned off again


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## NPO (Nov 2, 2014)

Rapidly switching sirens sounds cool to us and looks fun on video, but the average inattentive driver isn't expecting that. They will "hear" a constant siren, whether that be wail, yelp, that one that sounds like a phaser, or your euro siren. 

Personally, leave it on the first siren tone "wail", as we approach a red light, hit the horn and it goes to " yelp" after clearing the intersection, hit the horn again and it goes back. (Horn in that sentence referes to the large space in the middle of the steering wheel.)

We too have electronic and air horns. You'll rarely find me use an electronic horn, as that interrupts the siren (although we have 3 independent sirens going, so that's not really an issue). Instead I use the button on the floor for the air horn. I'll use that when approaching large intersections on a red, or tap it to alert the driver in my lane in front of me that I'm approaching. I'll also use it occasionally when someone ****s up and makes me mad with their driving, but that's rare.  

Focus on driving. Especially if you're new. And I've been in a few ambulances where the siren is in a god awful inconvenient place. If this is your ambulance, set it and forget it. Its not THAT important to change tones. Get from Point A to Point B safely.


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## okiemedic (Nov 3, 2014)

The service I worked for in Texas had a rule of not making music at intersections. Just worked the airhorn.


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## vcuemt (Nov 5, 2014)

http://www.ems1.com/paramedic-chief/articles/1977768-The-truth-about-using-lights-and-sirens

Relevant article on the use of l&s



> Studies show that EMS personnel die more often than police and fire in traffic collisions; that many crashes are preventable; and that rapid EMS response with lights and sirens makes a difference only in a few circumstances, such as cardiac arrest, explains the voice-over on the seven-minute video.
> 
> Yet the video goes beyond simply citing statistics. To vividly depict the risks, MONOC — a nonprofit, 15-hospital cooperative that has 26 ambulance stations covering 1,800 square miles in New Jersey and provides EMS for 2.8 million people in 2013 — conducted a simulation in a suburban neighborhood to show how well-insulated vehicles, drivers listening to car radios and talking on cell phones, and vehicle air-conditioners compromise the ability of drivers to detect sirens.


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## jwk (Nov 8, 2014)

JPINFV said:


> No it doesn't. A forward facing burning red light with a siren as needed is all that is required for the exemptions to the traffic code. Lights and sirens, however, are required to demand the right of way from other vehicles.
> .


.


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## JPINFV (Nov 8, 2014)

jwk said:


> .


Rather pointed...


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