# Crew Members Under 18 / High School Age Members



## JPINFV (Jan 5, 2008)

In another thread (post 1, post 2 clarifying), a member here stated that, while comfortable with a patient alone, he felt even more comfortable because he had a "junior member" on the ambulance. A junior member was defined as a person under the age of 18. The purpose of this thread is not to debate that call, case, or poster though. There is also the case of the high school responders in Darien CT. (link goes to Youtube)

So, I propose the following question, "Should people under the age of 18 be considered anything more than an observer on an ambulance?"


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## Ridryder911 (Jan 5, 2008)

We had EMT programs in vocational schools (H.S.) and finally the last one was shut down. There were several reasons for this. Those that finished the course rarely took the license test, then those that did could not find a job (being < 21), . 

Personally, I do not know why we must feel that we place children into an emergency experience or should have to "share" on what we see and do. This is not a usual profession that is exposed on the normal day to day routine events of non-graphic or even emotional and potential physically damaging events. As truly healthcare providers why would we want to even allow for such an occurrence.

Ironically, we would never consider placing our children with a LEO, or aboard an engine company or even a mortuary business due to the potential effects, but EMS... let everyone that wants to has an interest or nosy feeling be allowed. At the same time, possibly exposing them to those professions. 

Yes, I maybe hypocritical. I started working in ER when I was 14 and was a Paramedic before I was 18. So, I do know the effects and as well know the mind of a teenager and youth being exposed and demands placed upon them. 

I used to be very pro-active in ride along for the youth. I was in a Medical and EMS Explorer Post myself and even a Post Advisor for several years, so I am very familiar with the such programs. My mind set has changed from years of experience of seeing the after effects of those being exposed to environments that was dangerous, physically, mind or potentially psychologically damaging (GSW to head w/brain exposure, child abuse, etc..) that even mature non-developing minds have a difficulty dealing with. Again, would we allow any other children to be allowed to do such? In fact, many may argue it may be abusive to have children to deal or be exposed to such...we have debriefing and counseling for children exposed to such events.  

So as an observer other than seeing in real time, what good is such programs? As well, for the patients privacy, why should we allow "non wanted visitors" be allowed to view treatment? Maybe, that patient did NOT want anyone else to know about their hx., where they lived, or personal details. 

Again, amazing EMS feels it has to be different and careless. You do not see tag along in medical schools, or nursing programs, respiratory therapy programs and they have students that enter the profession (and actually enter, stay and perform in it longer than EMS does). So the argument of " they would be interested in it more, or this allows "exposure" should not be validated.

If one is really interested in a career, they would investigate, read and discuss with professionals the role. 

There is no need to have an audience brought in when we attend to our patients. 

R/r 911


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## Nocturnatrix (Jan 5, 2008)

In ny we have youth squads for members 14-18 who want to be a part of the ambulance co.... you have to be 16 to ride but they are students only!

We do have certified first responders at 17 but you have to be 18 to be an emt. the responders usually have a medic or emt with them from what i hear in neighboring departments i don't have any members under 18 in my dept.

Sometimes the students im my dept get very nervous when dealing with patients and my district gets a lot of OD's and drunks and i believe that they shouldn't be put at risk so if they are on a call with the risk of violence i ask them to sit away from the patient or up front if i believe she/he will become violent. We also try to prepare them the best we can in there classes for this!

basically i think they should be able to observe and help as a student but they have to be protected and supervised! i remember being a youth member at 16 riding on the ambulance... this is what got me into ems
At first i was just hanging out with my friends but then i really got into it!
I have been with ems since i was 14 and riding since 16 and i cant think of anything better for kids to do! this will keep kids off the streets!

ok im ranting now! but i think its wonderful that some kids are getting into ems! its a great thing for them and we should encourage it!


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## jordanfstop (Jan 5, 2008)

As the OP I figure I should chime in.

In New Jersey one can become an EMT at seventeen, which this particular Junior Member was. Where my corps is (in NY) we're about five miles from the NJ border and he goes to school in NJ as well, so he became a NJ EMT and is doing reciprocity in March (he's also a NYS CFR.) This particular member has a few hundred calls under his belt and is going to become cleared before the ink will dry on his card. So technically, yes, he's still an observer for our corps, however if the crew chief feels that it's appropriate then he or she allows Junior Members or Senior Corps observers to "tech" the job. The crew chief (and the state) won't allow them to administer particular interventions, e.g. giving ASA, albuterol, EpiPen, or allow them to write the official PCR. So technically in NYS they can't be anything more than an observer. In other states, I'm not sure how I'd feel about it. This particular member would be a cleared EMT if the NYS minimum age was seventeen, as I imagine other states have members that are of this caliber at their age. 

Also, I know a few particular Junior Members who use riding at this corps as an escape from the other things that go on in their life. One particular member tells me all the time that if he wasn't riding, he'd still be with some friends smoking weed and getting into trouble. They're pressured in doing better in school (they're required to have a minimum GPA in school as well the corps has checkups with parents.) These youth programs motivate the kids to get into EMS and the medical field abroad; they're our future.


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## Ridryder911 (Jan 5, 2008)

It would be interesting to see the real percentages of EMT's that come from such programs or if it is strictly anecdotal findings.. now consider how many enter without such programs.  

Sorry, children should never be involved in patient care. Having someone "observe" is no value to the care (as another responsibility and body on a call, as well as potential danger to them) and truthfully disrespectful to the privacy of the patient. 

I really doubt that EMS is ever going to keep kids off the street or quit smoking weed. I know too many EMT's.. (hint: EMS has one of the highest alcohol and substance abuse professions). 

R/r 911


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## Jolt (Jan 5, 2008)

I'm a 17 year old EMT from Connecticut (I got certified at 16 and no, I don't work in Darien) and, as such, I know my opinion won't really matter in this conversation, but I figured I might as well introduce myself in case anyone wanted to ask something.

Thanks.


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## Asclepius (Jan 5, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> Ironically, we would never consider placing our children with a LEO, or aboard an engine company or even a mortuary business due to the potential effects, but EMS... let everyone that wants to has an interest or nosy feeling be allowed. At the same time, possibly exposing them to those professions.


Not true. Many Law Enforcement agencies have very active ride along programs. My hometown does one, I think they call it an Explorer group or something along those lines. Same with Fire Department's. 

Kids these days see more in a movie or video game than they'll see in the typical day riding along with us. We're perfectly willing to send our children into a combat zone at 18, but not so willing to let them buy alcohol. My issue is that we can't have it both ways. They're either mature enough to handle it or they're not. I'll not make that decision alone, but it's unfair to have it both ways.


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## Ridryder911 (Jan 5, 2008)

I would hope those "ride alongs" are under direct supervision where the children are not directly placed into an endangerment area. Can one imagine the outcry if a tragic event occurred? 

Sorry, there is still NO reason for children to be at the scene nor involved in patient care ... period! 

I have worked in such Posts that had Fire & LEO, but they were never placed into the direct working environment. Rather, they assisted in such of patrols of large crowds, search for missing children, clean up of gear, rolling hoses, etc. Never were they placed in arms danger nor into a working fire, haz-mat, nor stand-off situations or assisting in arresting or handling a subject. Video games do not produce blood borne exposures, nor a TBI being strucked by an assailant or by a speeding auto as they go through a MVC scene or police pursuit. Again, there is a much psychological difference of knowing that the images on the video game and seeing real brain matter and 100% burn patients. 

In regards to the military, when they are 18 they are no longer a child, as well they have made the determination to enter a profession thats main objective is to fight in wartime. Again, if they are 18 or over and want to be an EMT they are of legal age have made that determination. 

Why do we want to pawn off the responsibility of patient care to children, and possibly endangering both of them? Is the business in so much need to have to resort to children providing care? Can you imagine going to surgery, only to see that the initial care will be provided by a 14 year old? What would the public perception be of the profession as well as confidence? Again, why do we in EMS allow non-adults attempt to perform the job? Is there not enough adults interested, that we have to attract junior or high school students? Should we be marketing students to go to school to enter EMS? A definite yes... but alike other health care professions, can be done without them entering direct patient care. 

We have been discussing in-depth the dangers of EMS and the need of wearing bullet proof vests and even heated debate of having self protection, and have been discussing the "sudden change" that might occur in patients demeanor, yet let's expose and place children in the line of fire? Again, like you described , you can't have it both ways... either it is a dangerous profession (which statistics have proven it is) or it is not and if it is (which we have discussed) one should not be placing minors into it. 

Do you ask the patient prior or get written permission before those that are on ride-a-alongs view the patient? No one has discussed the possibility of privacy or HIPPA violations of ride-a-alongs. This person is not an employ or even a student, rather just a seeker/observer that has no real mission other than to look. Can you imagine going to see your physician or OB/Gyn and having someone that is tagging around to see what the job is like? We can dismiss bystanders at scenes, but to allow them to enter a house and observe treatment, assessments, etc.. without prior written agreement of the patient maybe in violation. Interesting to see what would occur? 

I personally have never seen the lack of EMT students, or those that want to enter the profession, usually quite the opposite. Rather, what we do see the lack of interest in staying in the profession and moving upwards. As well, look at the numbers of EMT's  and the openings or positions available, there are more EMT's than there are openings. There is definitely not a lack of supply and demand at the entry level.  

Maybe the emphasis should be placed upon not so much recruitment but on retainment and promoting furthering the education for those in it or want to enter at the Paramedic level bypassing EMT altogether. Instead of encouraging non adults to perform our job, maybe we should be promoting professionalism within by adult standards . Those of better pay (or being paid), better working hours, career growth, longevity, and promoting that our profession is important and not that just anyone can perform it, and it does requires mature critical thinking skills, that comes along with maturity and life experience. 

R/r 911


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## JPINFV (Jan 5, 2008)

jordanfstop said:


> As the OP I figure I should chime in....



There's always going to be an exception to the rule (i.e. average, normal, etc), but you can't use the exception to advocate breaking or changing the rule. Hence, I was trying to avoid calling any specific situation or person out with this thread.


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## bstone (Jan 5, 2008)

In Israel many kids around the age of 15 goes through a 40 hour first responder course. This allows them to volunteer on an ambulance. They can take additional courses to increase their skillset, including IV therapy, ETT, EKG, etc. The very motivated can become full medics before they are even 18.

And it works great.


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## Ridryder911 (Jan 5, 2008)

bstone said:


> In Israel many kids around the age of 15 goes through a 40 hour first responder course. This allows them to volunteer on an ambulance. They can take additional courses to increase their skillset, including IV therapy, ETT, EKG, etc. The very motivated can become full medics before they are even 18.
> 
> And it works great.



They also allow females direct combat as well. It appears to work great too, but doubt we will see that immediately as well. When in comparison to what that it works great? Let's compare their system to ours.. as well as other educational requirements.. maybe there are other factors causing this greatness? 

Sorry, there is much difference from first responder and actually medical care and knowledge.

R/r 911


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## BossyCow (Jan 5, 2008)

I agree with Rid on this one.  I have some serious concerns about letting legal minors provide emergency care.  Not that they can't handle stuff they will see on EMS calls, but that they shouldn't have to.  

The teenage brain is still developing.  The frontal lobe is undergoing massive reorganization at that time of life.  While an emergency that is thrust upon them at that time will call up reserves they didn't know they had, there is no reason to subject them to it.


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## babygirl2882 (Jan 5, 2008)

This last two years or so when I have been doing ride alongs I have learned things that I would never have learned if I hadn't been riding. I met people that have helped me decided what I need to be doing right now to further my education. I have seen wonderful things happen and have never regretted any of it. I have people who care about what is going on in my life and hope for my future. I have created a place in my community that I would have other wise been unable to do. I have hope that I will become something worthwhile.

I know that I am only 16, that I have no life experience, that I'm still young but I want goals for myself. I have to have a reason to go to school and care. I won't get in trouble because I have too much to look forward to. For some people (probably most) this isn't enough, it isn't good enough. But for me this is what I need and seek. Not being able to do ride alongs now would be devastating. I have seen things that restore my hope for the world, a little old lady who has fallen down and is hurt, there are people who will come and help her. Its not amazing but thats what 98% of the calls in my town are, to that little old lady its all she needed.


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## Flight-LP (Jan 5, 2008)

The truly sad part is the comment that you need something to go to school. This belief in entitlement in todays youth and an absolute lack of social ethics and integrity really chaps me. You need to be in school because it is socially accepted that KIDS get an education. You don't need any other reason. The way I see it is if kids want to help out in EMS, then they can babysit my kids while I work................

If you are under the age of 18, you have no business on an ambulance, if you are under 21, then you have no business driving one. Go to school, get an education, and then become a professional member of the EMS world. Stop trying to hurry your life along to participate in something "cool" with the "blinkies" and the "wooies"................


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## Ridryder911 (Jan 5, 2008)

babygirl2882 said:


> This last two years or so when I have been doing ride alongs I have learned things that I would never have learned if I hadn't been riding. I met people that have helped me decided what I need to be doing right now to further my education. I have seen wonderful things happen and have never regretted any of it. I have people who care about what is going on in my life and hope for my future. I have created a place in my community that I would have other wise been unable to do. I have hope that I will become something worthwhile.
> 
> I know that I am only 16, that I have no life experience, that I'm still young but I want goals for myself. I have to have a reason to go to school and care. I won't get in trouble because I have too much to look forward to. For some people (probably most) this isn't enough, it isn't good enough. But for me this is what I need and seek. Not being able to do ride alongs now would be devastating. I have seen things that restore my hope for the world, a little old lady who has fallen down and is hurt, there are people who will come and help her. Its not amazing but thats what 98% of the calls in my town are, to that little old lady its all she needed.




Now, would it be devastating or would it be disappointing? EMS is a business and that business is to provide quality medical care.. period. It is not a redeemer, nor a reason to pursue life or anything heroically. If one sets goal for EMS to provide this; they will be sadly disappointed and will soon leave the profession. Hopefully, you would probably pursue EMS no matter if they stopped ride alongs or not. If not, then I would question any one's true interest. EMS is not going to prevent drop outs, nor prevent drug or alcohol abuse nor should be considered a community project. 

People go into professions for multiple reasons. We still have those that want to be an astronaut, physician and yes even an EMT enter the profession without direct exposure or performing the job prior to education. Obviously, by current statistics we are NOT lacking getting people to enter or enroll into EMT programs. Again, quite the opposite too many are entering, and there is very little job market for them. Again, as I tell those that find out in the real world, that most professional services require to be age 21 that EMS will still be there when they reach that age, if they are truly interested in EMS. 

There are reasons hospitals do not allow minors to provide medical care and to even observe procedures, yet we still have those that want to be in the medical field. Trust between providers is a sacred trust. Having observers there to fulfill their voyeurism is not being professional and truthfully unfounded. Sorry, most patients have a difficult time opening up to physicians, nurses, medics and now we have a minor that is assisting me in simple procedures, is not going to add to my ability to develop this. Many do not even want EMS students, but understand that they will be part of the system & usually will allow it. There are few times that I need an extra set untrained hands, and definitely having them and watching over them, just adds more to my responsibility and increases more pressure. You see in the end.. I am ultimately responsible. 

Again, we are a health care profession, no matter if paid or through an FD service. Our actions and promotions should be accordingly to those standards, not excused because we are EMS. 

R/r 911


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## silver (Jan 5, 2008)

ehh darien does a pretty good job though. they are supervised by someone over 18, yet they can make the decisions when providing care. Its a great learning tool, not only do they get to see realities in the world, (in Fairfield County is very isolated from realities as it is) but it puts them in a good step forward in developing as a whole person. Supposedly they claim that 50% of their crew goes off to med school.


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## JPINFV (Jan 6, 2008)

silver said:


> ehh darien does a pretty good job though. they are supervised by someone over 18, yet they can make the decisions when providing care. Its a great learning tool, not only do they get to see realities in the world, (in Fairfield County is very isolated from realities as it is) but it puts them in a good step forward in developing as a whole person. Supposedly they claim that 50% of their crew goes off to med school.



So basically, working as a basic is so easy a kid can do it? I think, if anything, that is the most damning piece of evidence that shows that EMS standards are too low. Furthermore, I highly doubt that working in EMS in high school has really just about any relevance to the amount of their students that goes on to medical school over 4 years later. EMS definitely doesn't prepare a student acadmically for a post secondary education.


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## Meursault (Jan 6, 2008)

Flight-LP said:


> ...if you are under 21, then you have no business driving one....



Honestly, I'd be happy not to be required to.

I'm also glad to see "blinkies and woowoos" becoming a forum staple.

Finally, in before someone else brings up med students (see "Trauma and BLS" for more of that fun).


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## silver (Jan 6, 2008)

JPINFV said:


> So basically, working as a basic is so easy a kid can do it? I think, if anything, that is the most damning piece of evidence that shows that EMS standards are too low. Furthermore, I highly doubt that working in EMS in high school has really just about any relevance to the amount of their students that goes on to medical school over 4 years later. EMS definitely doesn't prepare a student acadmically for a post secondary education.



that was just random information 

and who says academically anyway?


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## JPINFV (Jan 6, 2008)

silver said:


> and who says academically anyway?



The fact that there's twice the number of applicants to med school then there are seats says that your extracurricular activities doesn't matter if no one reads your application anyways. There's also plenty of EMT-Bs that apply to med school. Granted, a fair number of them only have the cert and have never worked a job that required a Basic certification (ambulance or hospital job).


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## emtwacker710 (Jan 6, 2008)

I actually started out my EMS life at the age of 14 I was a junior member until age 17, which was the time I was voted into senior membership at my squad and also began my EMT-D course, being a junior member was one of the best experiences I ever had as a teen into adulthood, with my agency we could do vitals, assist on scene, assist with pt. assessments, and so on, I learned so much and it has helped me with where I am today, I think that junior squads should be allowed and I support them 100%, I am actually thinking of becoming an assisstant advisor for the junior squad at my agency.


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## daedalus (Jan 7, 2008)

Flight-LP, I disagree. Rid, I disagree.
I believe EMS can be a redeeming and rewarding profession. If I can spend 15 minutes in the back of the ambulance talking to an elderly women about her trip to america that brought her here and how it changed her life, and be friendly with her even though she probably has had no vistors in her nursing hime, that I am rewarded at the end of my shift. I may only work Inter facility transports, but its required here in ventura county california to have atleast 6 months WORKING on an ambulance as a basic to go to paramedic school.

Here in ventura county we have high school students exploring fire, EMS, and law enforcement. Children are the future and I believe we should involve them in what we do.


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## Ridryder911 (Jan 7, 2008)

Obvious you have very little experience and still live in a fantasy world.. the world is not full of rainbows and the being able to hold the hand of granny that fell would be great if one had the time.

I too for the first few months believed in the same.

Sorry it is absurd and asinine to have children to perform in a medical profession. It is even shameful and disgusting to think that a community would even consider such, as well as a profession to even consider to place the youth in potential danger and risks and responsibility. 

Sorry, I have been there. I started out in Posts at 14 and was an advisor for 5 years, and yes thought the same at one time. Although, at the time there were very little to no blood borne pathogens, rarely if any violent attacks were against medical staff, and single EMS units barely responded a call every 30 minutes to an hour and litigation against EMS never occurred; but things changed. Yes, we used to be able to have such active programs but times have changed, EMS has changed. We used to allow 16 year olds to drive emergencies as well until insurance corporations decided to stop insuring due to vehicle homicides and reckless behavior and malpractice coverage of a child performing medical procedures. Yes, it is hard to prove to a jury a child is responsible enough to perform procedures and the kid has not even paid taxes in their life. Sorry, *people do care* who performs medical care upon them. 

As well, our business changed into a profession. It is no longer a "on the job training" rather someone * should* have the education prior to even sitting their gluteus behind the wheel. 

C'mon this is a mute point. No one goes to the hospital to find a 14 or 16 year old starting their IV and assisting in by-pass surgery, nor standing around on the L & D floor to see if they want to do that some day. The reason is because of professional standards. 

You want to be paid as a professional, treated as a professional, look like a professional... Guess what ? You have to act and be one, and having children assisting or even attempting to do your job is not being one. 

This job requires mature thinking. It is called critical thinking skills (not to be confused with critical care), that is the ability to perform multiple and crisis intervention at the same time, prioritizing, sorting, and making sound decisions under rushed circumstances. It has been scientifically and professionally proven that those under the age of 21 usually have difficulties doing so. Unfair? Maybe, sorry that is life, we are not here in EMS to please those that are interested in a possible profession. Our main priority is to perform emergency and medical care to patients that request our services. 

These services also include multiple tasks as well, and many never include direct patient care. The notification and recognition of abuse both adult and child, the intervention of a violent patient, being the first on a MCI and assisting in a LZ for a helicopter or making the determination of whom, where a patient is deemed to go for trauma, cardiac, violent psychiatric patients, and yes even telling granny that her loved one is dead. 

You know that is a lot to ask a child to do, or see; and the first responding unit may have to do that. They do not have the option of being discreet of what the child maybe exposed to, or walk up on a junkie that is armed. 

As a health care provider, are we really thinking in "their best interest" by doing so?   

You are asking a lot for another EMT to be responsible for. I have enough hard time protecting myself and my partner on many calls, adding a youth that has no business being there is not fair nor productive. It does not take three people to take vital signs, nor four to run a code or provide trauma care to a patient. If you don't know more than to take vital signs; I don't need you in the back, your just taking up space. 

Maybe, if you only respond to grannies falling and injuring their hip or the diabetic that forgot to eat or citizens only needing taxi service... that would be great but that is not what occurs in real life or in today's real EMS. 

I am curious do you allow the youth to lift patients? What occurs if they injure their back or drops a patient? Does the service pay workman's comp on back injuries or pay malpractice? Does the parents understand that their potential assets can be removed from them as well? ... 

Again, a lot for to ask for just because of curiosity and voyeurism. 

R/r 911


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## bstone (Jan 7, 2008)

Guess I'll just say I disagree. In Israel we have lots and lots of volunteers under 18. The program is a huge success and is an excellent training program since everyone goes into the army at 18.


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## Asclepius (Jan 7, 2008)

Sorry R/R I have to dissent here as well. I think every child is different so a blanket policy is probably absurd, but I think it is important to involve our children in as much of real life as possible. My six year old probably knows more about human anatomy and physiology than most EMT-basics do. He watches the political primaries with me and knows why we support the candidate that we do and why we don't support the other candidates. 

He understands that life is not full of rainbows. He understands that there are bad people and good people. He understands that sometimes bad things happen and sufferage and pain are part of life and death. He watches the medical documentary shows with me and we discuss, usually at his behest, the different things we see. I discuss with him the pediatric calls I have when a little girl runs out under minivans and get head injuries. I usually tie that up with why mommy and daddy are always yelling at him when he runs through a parking lot. Actually, the things he has seen and the stories I have told him have been valuable life lessons for him.

What I think we have to be careful of is sheltering our children too much. If we keep them in a little make believe cocoon then they'll never experience life as it really is. I'm not saying cut them loose and let them be responsible for all the critical thinking. I don't think anyone here is advocating that. But I do think it is important for them to experience, if they want to, the things we do and learn the reasons behind how and why we treat them.

Someone said they're our future. And I wholeheartedly agree. There is nothing wrong with them observing and beginning the process of trying to put all the information together at an early age, if they're able to do that. Nothing stops a preceptor from making a kid stay in the truck if a call is so traumatic that it may mess them up. The truth is, those kinds of calls happen very infrequently. However, when they do happen...guess what? It's a fact of life and they need to understand that death, dying, suffering, and pain are all facts of life.

It's been my experience as a preceptor that most patients are very happy and willing to let students practice taking blood pressures and other non-invasive procedures on them. Most people understand that learning to do things is a necessary part of the process. Again, I am not advocating letting the kids make treatment decisions. I am, though, advocating getting the kids to think through the process and verbalize the thinking process.

I don't think this is as moot a point as you'd like it to be. I think you're in the minority here. I think it is possible to be a professional, maintain professionalism, and still teach our young people something all at the same time. For the sake of education, I am perfectly willing to accept the risk of adding a young person on my truck to observe provided he understands his/her limitations and can follow my direction.


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## emtwacker710 (Jan 7, 2008)

asclepius, I agree with you, all teens/young adults are different, I know many that are more mature and know more than some adults, I also know some that are the most immature thing you can imagine, but I believe if the right teens come along and are willing to learn and do the work in the fire/EMS field (without putting themselves in danger initially) then we should welcome them and teach them, and allow them to observe.


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## JPINFV (Jan 7, 2008)

I don't see too big of a problem with a well managed and controlled explorer style program. My problem is when children move past the observer role and become either responsible for patient care directly or a replacement for a crew member (ex. Darien youtube video, post referenced in the first post). This has nothing to do with children gaining experience but with patient care. I do not think that children have developed the critical thinking skills needed for EMS yet. 

Now, yes, as with everything, not *all* people are the same, but a line has to be drawn someplace. There are individuals who could probably drive just as well as any 20 year old at 14. Do they get to drive at 14 because they are ahead of the curve? Of course not. Do we let a 20 year old gamble in Vegas (Indian casinos for the win) because they show the maturity to know when to stop? How about drinking alcohol at 20? The answer to all of these is a resounding "No!" in large part because it is a line that needs to be made someplace, and that is the place where the line has been put.

Similarly, the line between childhood and adulthood in society is placed at 18. Are all individuals mature enough to be considered an adult at 18? No. Are some individuals younger than 18 more mature than a lot of adults? Of course, but laws and standards can not be drawn up based on individuals, but based on society. Society neither expects nor prepares children to be able to operate independently and think critically.


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## Ridryder911 (Jan 7, 2008)

I believe were I disagree is the majority of EMS anymore is no longer a complacent environment, where it is the abnormal to be cursed, spit at or take several back to back calls. 

Again, exposure to an occupation is great, but one does not have to be directly involved in care or even patient exposure. I believe it is unethical to have a person on the EMS unit sole purpose is to "watch". Does one really think by not having youth ride alongs, or allowing them on a unit is really going to not persuade them from going into EMS? Again, realistically they will  still have another 4-5 years before they can enter professionally. So what have really we accomplished? 

Many are not even counting Basic EMT as experience in many Paramedic services, does one really think sitting & watching or taking a few vital signs will count?  

Let's educate and promote EMS as a profession, that professionals do. Promote that we are very discreet on whom and what is allowed into our profession. That our patient's privacy, care and treatment is only administered by qualified and educated personal, not just anyone that displays an interest. 

Again professionalism and professional standards. 

Do you allow family members or their friends ride and observe in the back? We do not for multiple reasons, yet we will allow one that is considered a child/minor or has no direct relationship or not even really licensed to care for the patient allowed to..?

Again, I am quite aware of the Explorer programs and their benefits, as well as disadvantages. It is NOT that I am against any Scouting Programs' being a former District Scout Exec. It is the system has changed, the responses has changed and the safety I question, as well as ethical and privacy dilemma. 

We no longer have to recruit solely upon High School students to enter the EMS field. In fact, unless they want to enter at a Paramedic level, they will probably have to await three to four years post High School.. again, re-register twice before entering the age to be able to work in the environment professionally. 

Again, we should promote EMS to high school and to all. Possibly, we should emphasize our profession more to the college age, since they will be able to enter the job market immediately and continue or change studies. This would have more advantages...

I am sure I will not pursade anyone I don't think I will have to. I believe we will see many changes due to privacy laws, possible injuries, litigations against both EMS and observers, and hopefully professional development. 

R/r 911


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## Asclepius (Jan 7, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> Again, exposure to an occupation is great, but one does not have to be directly involved in care or even patient exposure. I believe it is unethical to have a person on the EMS unit sole purpose is to "watch". Does one really think by not having youth ride alongs, or allowing them on a unit is really going to not persuade them from going into EMS? Again, realistically they will  still have another 4-5 years before they can enter professionally. So what have really we accomplished?


Yes, I do. I did. If not EMS, then maybe inspired to be a physician. I know two of those personally and now one is our PMD. 



> Many are not even counting Basic EMT as experience in many Paramedic services, does one really think sitting & watching or taking a few vital signs will count?


Again, I do. Clearly, the student not only gains an appreciation for what we do as a profession they get to experience the medical scenario in a less than perfect situation. It's one thing to do something in the nice over staffed hospital room...it's quite another to do it in the chaos of the scene.



> Let's educate and promote EMS as a profession, that professionals do. Promote that we are very discreet on whom and what is allowed into our profession. That our patient's privacy, care and treatment is only administered by qualified and educated personal, not just anyone that displays an interest.


I am all about professionalism. It's one of my biggest issues in the field. But I am also about education and awareness. EMS awareness is part of the role of an EMT.



> Do you allow family members or their friends ride and observe in the back? We do not for multiple reasons, yet we will allow one that is considered a child/minor or has no direct relationship or not even really licensed to care for the patient allowed to..?


Yep. Just a couple of weeks ago I had the daughter of the pastor who married my wife and I ride with me. She is graduating high school this year and is thinking about nursing. She wanted to ride along and I think it was a good idea for her.


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## Parking Da Bus (May 13, 2008)

*Thoughts on High School EMT-B Cadet Programs*

Hi,

After using the search feature I was not able to come across this topic so I wanted to adress it: what do people here think about high school cadet EMT-B programs where juniors and seniors can, after passing an EMT-B course, go out on calls as part of their local town's volly 911 EMS squad? So the age range we are dealing with is roughly 16-19. So what does everybody think about this? Are high school cadets too young, or can high school students in fact be mature enough to successfully respond to calls as professionals and give the same level of care as older EMT's?


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## EMTrigger (May 13, 2008)

already been discussed.

http://emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=6199&highlight=connecticut


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## firecoins (May 13, 2008)

Parking Da Bus said:


> Hi,
> 
> After using the search feature I was not able to come across this topic so I wanted to adress it: what do people here think about high school cadet EMT-B programs where juniors and seniors can, after passing an EMT-B course, go out on calls as part of their local town's volly 911 EMS squad? So the age range we are dealing with is roughly 16-19. So what does everybody think about this? Are high school cadets too young, or can high school students in fact be mature enough to successfully respond to calls as professionals and give the same level of care as older EMT's?



we have a youth corp.  They go on calls as long as thye are 16 and have AHA CPR for the pro rescuer.  At 18 they join the volley corp as a full member as they are legally considered an adult.  

In NYS you must be 18 at the finish of an EMT class to take it.


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## Parking Da Bus (May 13, 2008)

JPINFV said:


> I don't see too big of a problem with a well managed and controlled explorer style program. My problem is when children move past the observer role and become either responsible for patient care directly or a replacement for a crew member (ex. Darien youtube video, post referenced in the first post). This has nothing to do with children gaining experience but with patient care. I do not think that children have developed the critical thinking skills needed for EMS yet.
> 
> Now, yes, as with everything, not *all* people are the same, but a line has to be drawn someplace. There are individuals who could probably drive just as well as any 20 year old at 14. Do they get to drive at 14 because they are ahead of the curve? Of course not. Do we let a 20 year old gamble in Vegas (Indian casinos for the win) because they show the maturity to know when to stop? How about drinking alcohol at 20? The answer to all of these is a resounding "No!" in large part because it is a line that needs to be made someplace, and that is the place where the line has been put.
> 
> Similarly, the line between childhood and adulthood in society is placed at 18. Are all individuals mature enough to be considered an adult at 18? No. Are some individuals younger than 18 more mature than a lot of adults? Of course, but laws and standards can not be drawn up based on individuals, but based on society. Society neither expects nor prepares children to be able to operate independently and think critically.



On the contrary, I think that "children" (actually 16-19 year olds) are just as equipped to give patient care as adult EMT-B's if the cadets and given the proper care and training. There was a few months ago a tradgedy in my community where a local high school student was accidentilly killed by members of his own wrestling team. Read the first few lines of the article:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-174509416.html

The cadets at the local high school responded and did as good a job as anybody. As you can see the police chief even commented on their good job.


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## JPINFV (May 13, 2008)

Parking Da Bus said:


> On the contrary, I think that "children" (actually 16-19 year olds) are just as equipped to give patient care as adult EMT-B's if the cadets and given the proper care and training. There was a few months ago a tradgedy in my community where a local high school student was accidentilly killed by members of his own wrestling team. Read the first few lines of the article:
> 
> http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-174509416.html
> 
> The cadets at the local high school responded and did as good a job as anybody. As you can see the police chief even commented on their good job.



If children are so adapt at managing potentially dangerous situations, then why do parents have to sign permission slips and waivers for their children to go on a field trip that is, overall, much safer than any EMS run? Besides N=1 is hardly counter evidence to questions about at what age a person should be responsible for rendering medical care in an official capacity (EMS vs bystander first aid). 

As to "children," yes, age <18 is a child in the eyes of society and the law. Yes, I wasn't happy to be lumped in the children/young adult age category as a 16 or 17 y/o. No, society is not fair to individuals in such rulings nor is anything going to change because a handful of people try to break the mold. 18 and 19 year olds are children, but I hope that 19 year olds are out of high school and 18 year olds are seniors in high school.


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## Ridryder911 (May 13, 2008)

Monkeys could provide good basic care if properly trained and supervised. The problem lies that can they make critical decisions under distress? It is scientifically proven that majority of those under the age of 25 can not. The logic and interpretation center has not fully developed, the reason for insurance rates. 

Now, let's review these kids (that is what they are) in ten years, let's see emotionally stable and how many might experience PTSD... Ask yourself, is this really for the best of our youth, when there is adults that might be better? 

R/r 911


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## Ridryder911 (May 13, 2008)

As a former Post Advisor I have seen the results 10-20 years later... a HORRIBLE idea. Kids are not mentally prepared for such, and should not be subject to such. We rant about "R" rated movies, and exposure but real life is okay?........

R/r 911


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## firecoins (May 13, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> As a former Post Advisor I have seen the results 10-20 years later... a HORRIBLE idea. Kids are not mentally prepared for such, and should not be subject to such. We rant about "R" rated movies, and exposure but real life is okay?........
> 
> R/r 911



You may rant about R rated movies but i feel kids are old enough to see the movies and old enough to ride. Most of the kids are in fact mentally prepared for this.  Some of the 50 year olds i am no so sure about. Are teenagers magically mentally prepared at 18?  at 21?  at 26? when exactly are kids mature enough? 

I have been riding since 16 years old.  Those who were in youth corp at the same time I was have gone to become MD/DOs, a PA, several RNs, several professional medics which will include me after August, several cops and a biomedical engineer.  And this is bad how?


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## John E (May 13, 2008)

*I'd rather my kids....*

see some real life than some movie nonsense where people get shot and keep moving, where women are tortured for fun etc.

And I work in the film industry.

John E.


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## fortsmithman (May 14, 2008)

My agency has one youth auxiliary member he does not go on calls.  He only helps clean the rig and learns how to use the equipment.  In order to go on calls our members have to be 18 and older no exceptions.  I can see having youth auxiliary members to learn about the equipment we use, but not to go on calls.


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## piranah (May 14, 2008)

im 18 and im a working basic and a training paramedic...ive not had a problem....but im not a usual 18 yr old....and i see where your coming from


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## Ridryder911 (May 14, 2008)

firecoins said:


> You may rant about R rated movies but i feel kids are old enough to see the movies and old enough to ride. Most of the kids are in fact mentally prepared for this.  Some of the 50 year olds i am no so sure about. Are teenagers magically mentally prepared at 18?  at 21?  at 26? when exactly are kids mature enough?
> 
> I have been riding since 16 years old.  Those who were in youth corp at the same time I was have gone to become MD/DOs, a PA, several RNs, several professional medics which will include me after August, several cops and a biomedical engineer.  And this is bad how?



I started working in an ER at the age of 14 and became a Paramedic at the age of 17, so I can speak of experience too. Sure, when I was a kid I thought the same. As I even stated I was a Post Advisor and alike you stated many became physicians and successful, but that does NOT exempt that PTSD is still possible and very real. PTSD may not even occur or have symptoms until 5 to 10 years later. Even those that became physicians still had some difficulties from calls that they responded upon as a youth. Not in relation to their practice or specialty. Kids should not be exposed to such events. Just because one goes into the medical field is irrelevant, it does not exempt them from the dangers. 

Sorry, a film analogy is silly. There is definitely a mind set difference between seeing a movie with trauma, and knowing it is the real deal. Hearing screams of a child that has been boiled by there abusive parent or smell the steam of a eviscerated abdominal wound in the winter, to attempting to deal with the parents of a SIDS case, is not the same as slasher movie. Want your kids to deal with that? Let's look at real events and see the emotional and psychological trauma from MVA's, school shootings, etc. What age should parents not be concern with the environment and factors they are exposed to? Does a 15 year old really have the mind set and maturity/life experience to talk to that grandma that just lost her husband? 

It is * scientifically proven* that the brain does not mature enough to make rationale decisions under distress until after the age of 25. Thus the reason most hospitals and accompanying insurance companies have age restrictions. This was not made half hazardously, rather again after tons of research. The only reason we still allow it is we have not became a profession yet. One does not have to volunteer or be exposed to have an interest in a profession or to recruit people into it. Thousands of other well respected, higher paying, does not allow kids to attempt to perform their job. 

If your 50 year olds are acting immature on duty, then they should be fired. Period. That will solve that. No excuses allowed. There is a difference between having fun than being immature. 

R/r 911


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## Ridryder911 (May 14, 2008)

John E said:


> see some real life than some movie nonsense where people get shot and keep moving, where women are tortured for fun etc.
> 
> And I work in the film industry.
> 
> John E.



I did not allow my child to watch such movies, and personally prefer not to watch them either.. Who needs it? 

R/r 911


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## FFPARAMEDIC08 (May 14, 2008)

Flight-LP said:


> The truly sad part is the comment that you need something to go to school. This belief in entitlement in todays youth and an absolute lack of social ethics and integrity really chaps me. You need to be in school because it is socially accepted that KIDS get an education. You don't need any other reason. The way I see it is if kids want to help out in EMS, then they can babysit my kids while I work................
> 
> If you are under the age of 18, you have no business on an ambulance, if you are under 21, then you have no business driving one. Go to school, get an education, and then become a professional member of the EMS world. Stop trying to hurry your life along to participate in something "cool" with the "blinkies" and the "wooies"................



What an ignorant post. I will address this more when I wake up.


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## LE-EMT (May 14, 2008)

I think this is a first.  I completely and whole heartedly agree with Rid.  That being said I will add my take on this.  I tried to read the whole thing but well I have ADD and got bored.  
One person said that LEO has a ride along program....Sure they do and yes in several cities its called and explorer program.  BUT for them to even set foot in a Police cruiser their parents have to sign off on them.  Ie acknowledging that their child is being placed in potentially harmful circumstances.  These explorers or any other ride along/observer (16-200 yrs of age ) are not allowed out of the Patrol car at any time for any reason.  They are not allowed to help with stops, aid in an arrest or anything of that nature.  They are strictly observers.  Any deviation of this is a violation of policy and just plain STUPID.  So to compare this to a 16 yr old EMT is well there is no comparison.  Two different Fields two different programs.  
As for my opinion on Minors in an ems role.  Well I have said in the past that I personally wouldn't feel comfortable having some high school kid administering Advil to me.  I understand that there are many very mature kids out there but seriously.  When I question my maturity level in dealing with certain things and I am 25 then think about the 15 year old.  For instance ( I will leave a lot of things out such as procedural info as well as tactics and what not as they are not the point of the story ) I recently responded to a call ( LEO response ) for shots fired.  Upon arriving on scene I realized that the house looked familiar.  Not only did it just look familiar but I knew who the residence were.  So immediately my adrenaline started to pump.  Again to reiterate I am responding to shots fired at a personal friends house....upon entering I find blood every where,  shell casings strewn about the floor bullet holes in the walls.  Basically it looks like a war started in this house.  after a bit of searching I find two bodies in the back bedroom  Bloody and lifeless.  I find two knives covered in blood both bodies mutilated almost beyond recognition.    found the gun in the hand of the male subject.  Basically the long and short of it is the two subjects (male and female) had gotten into a verbal argument witch progressed to physical then physical with edged weapons and then the gun was brought into play.  Murder Suicide.  These were my friends and I was the first on scene and I had to attempt to render aid.  

I don't care how old or how mature you are at some point every one in the EMS/FIRE/LEO field will respond to a call that will just rock your world.   Now being a 14,15,16,17,18 yr old and seeing a friend of yours in that situation and having to not only push back the emotions but then be of sound mind and body to attempt to preform life saving skills.  I just don't see it.    Not to mention and then walk out of the scene and go home and wash your friends blood off your hands your uniform and not have that do irrefutable mental damage.

I personally think that an observer program should start at the age of 18 get your certifications and learn all you can but you ride the bus as an observer for two years.  Then you are assessed by your commanding officer as to your metal stability and your knowledge of what you have learned over the past two years.  If you pass then you can work.


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## CFRBryan347768 (May 14, 2008)

JPINFV said:


> In another thread (post 1, post 2 clarifying), a member here stated that, while comfortable with a patient alone, he felt even more comfortable because he had a "junior member" on the ambulance. A junior member was defined as a person under the age of 18. The purpose of this thread is not to debate that call, case, or poster though. There is also the case of the high school responders in Darien CT. (link goes to Youtube)
> 
> So, I propose the following question, "Should people under the age of 18 be considered anything more than an observer on an ambulance?"



As I am under 18 I believe this could go two ways. If you do not take the first step and just watch instead of being a leader, and do not get involved than no you should only be an observer. But if you can demonstrate that you can "hold your own" and than you could be a vital posession to the crew.


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## CFRBryan347768 (May 14, 2008)

Flight-LP said:


> The truly sad part is the comment that you need something to go to school. This belief in entitlement in todays youth and an absolute lack of social ethics and integrity really chaps me. You need to be in school because it is socially accepted that KIDS get an education. You don't need any other reason. The way I see it is if kids want to help out in EMS, then they can babysit my kids while I work................
> 
> If you are under the age of 18, you have no business on an ambulance, if you are under 21, then you have no business driving one. Go to school, get an education, and then become a professional member of the EMS world. Stop trying to hurry your life along to participate in something "cool" with the "blinkies" and the "wooies"................



So your pretty much telling me that I dont belong on an ambulance? Let me put it this way. If not for the ambulance what would have happened to the 97y/o that had a heart attack in front of his entire family with an EMS/FF rig with an ETA of 20 minutes? What would have happened to by 8 y/o brother had severe lacerations to his leg from a dirt bike accident? If i didnt know how to control bleeding you could bet all the money he would have bled out seeing that the closeest hospital was 25-30 minutes away. I could keep going on and on. I think you are very ignorant to the reality of this field.


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## el Murpharino (May 14, 2008)

CFRBryan347768 said:


> What would have happened to by 8 y/o brother had severe lacerations to his leg from a dirt bike accident? If i didnt know how to control bleeding you could bet all the money he would have bled out seeing that the closeest hospital was 25-30 minutes away. I could keep going on and on. I think you are very ignorant to the reality of this field.



I learned first aid when I was 12...most kids can learn the basics.  

Let's change your scenario a bit...what would you do for the 8 year old brother if he was stung by a bee and had a bee allergy?  Obviously there's not much you can do in that situation without the proper meds, but if you watched him die in front of you, you cannot say that this wouldn't scar you for a long time.  It's easy to take one scenario and twist it to make people think you're ready for the harsh reality of the EMS field.  It's possible you could be the exception...I mean there are kids who can handle this field.  But we deal with mature matter on a daily basis...most kids can't handle it over the long term.


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## LE-EMT (May 14, 2008)

What would happen if in your inexperience you made a mistake and your little brother died in your arms?????????? This is hard for anyone and everyone to deal with much less someone who hasn't mentally matured completely.  I ask you this when was the last time you had some one die in your arms.  through no fault of your own.... You just couldn't save this individual.  How did you feel how are you going to feel another 10,20, 100 PTs down the line.  Watching someone die takes its toll on you no matter how old or mature you are.  The point is that children with their evolving minds should not be put through this potentially devastating mental trama. 
You think you are mentally capable of dealing with all that EMS has to offer.   Well then I say don't come crying to me when PTSD sets in and you are trying to self medicate your way past the dreams, the visions, and the general feeling of failure.


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## Ridryder911 (May 14, 2008)

CFRBryan347768 said:


> So your pretty much telling me that I dont belong on an ambulance? Let me put it this way. If not for the ambulance what would have happened to the 97y/o that had a heart attack in front of his entire family with an EMS/FF rig with an ETA of 20 minutes? What would have happened to by 8 y/o brother had severe lacerations to his leg from a dirt bike accident? If i didnt know how to control bleeding you could bet all the money he would have bled out seeing that the closeest hospital was 25-30 minutes away. I could keep going on and on. I think you are very ignorant to the reality of this field.



Yes, I am telling you have* NO* business inside an ambulance. What would happen is what occurs everyday, the service would increase the number of rigs to decrease response time to prevent litigation instead of relying upon an MFR unit. Sorry, the analogies you provided can be treated by most common laymen, until EMS arrives. Really what are you really doing for an AMI? What diagnostics and treatment are you providing? What you are doing and providing is the same everyone in the U.S. should know and do ...provide first-aid. Something that used to be taught in every grade school and high school for use in common everyday emergencies. 

Do we as a society have to depend upon kids to provide services? Why? Is the adults to busy to handle adult situations, or is it that kids perceive this as exciting and parents do not recognize and understand the potential dangers? 

Now, as a former medical explorer and EMS explorer I do understand the percieved benefits, but as an adult that has seen the results that occurs 10 years later. I can assure you there are negative side effects as well. Something, most "kids" cannot even phantom. 

Do we not read about PTSD from tragic events involving our young and in our military? It can occur to any age, but has been documented to have an increase in younger adults. Again, what event that might trigger is really unknown. I have seen & witnessed young adults that obtained PTSD from exposure to an event while as a Explorer. Again, the mind is not emotionally or psychologically developed enough.. argue all you want and attempt to justify; it is scientifically proven. Maybe, after a couple of million dollar law suits, communities would find it is much cheaper to hire adults. 

Do we see pre-teen and teenagers working in a surgery suite, ICU, CCU, even in the ER? Why not? It is definitely more structured and a better controlled environment than in the field, but we acclaim it is okay? How asinine! 

EMS is a division of the medical profession. It needs to be provided by well educated, stable, experienced individuals. Some of the education needed is life experience, and the reasoning skills obtained by rationale decision making techniques, that comes with experience of living. 

R/r 911


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## firecoins (May 14, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> Some of the education needed is life experience, and the reasoning skills obtained by rationale decision making techniques, that comes with experience of living.
> R/r 911



What experience of living?  Anyone under 18 isn't allowed to see R rated movies much less real life. 

The whole point of a youth corp/junior corp is to allow those under the 18 to *OBSERVE* and *TO BE EDUCATED*. Riding as an observer is an educational experienced that is not to be missed.  Many of my fellow youth corp have gone to become MDs, DOs, medics, RNs, PAs, cops, firefighters, chiropractors and biomedical engineers and into many unrelated fields.  None have PTSD.


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## firecoins (May 14, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> It is * scientifically proven* that the brain does not mature enough to make rationale decisions under distress until after the age of 25. R/r 911


1 Teenagers aren't making the decisions.  Why this keeps them from observing, i dont' know.  

2. 
And we should continue to baby teenagers because?

3. I would love to see the study or studies that come to this conclusion.


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## CFRBryan347768 (May 14, 2008)

firecoins said:


> What experience of living?  Anyone under 18 isn't allowed to see R rated movies much less real life.
> 
> The whole point of a youth corp/junior corp is to allow those under the 18 to *OBSERVE* and *TO BE EDUCATED*. Riding as an observer is an educational experienced that is not to be missed.  Many of my fellow youth corp have gone to become MDs, DOs, medics, RNs, PAs, cops, firefighters, chiropractors and biomedical engineers and into many unrelated fields.  None have PTSD.



Well SAID!!


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## Desert Ranger (May 14, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> Obvious you have very little experience and still live in a fantasy world.. the world is not full of rainbows and the being able to hold the hand of granny that fell would be great if one had the time.
> 
> I too for the first few months believed in the same.
> 
> ...






BossyCow said:


> I agree with Rid on this one.  I have some serious concerns about letting legal minors provide emergency care.  Not that they can't handle stuff they will see on EMS calls, but that they shouldn't have to.
> 
> The teenage brain is still developing.  The frontal lobe is undergoing massive reorganization at that time of life.  While an emergency that is thrust upon them at that time will call up reserves they didn't know they had, there is no reason to subject them to it.



Agree, totally


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## firecoins (May 14, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> Do we as a society have to depend upon kids to provide services? Why? Is the adults to busy to handle adult situations, or is it that kids perceive this as exciting and parents do not recognize and understand the potential dangers?


Teenagers don't provider service..  CFRBrian doesn't provide service noir does his ambulance corp rely on him to do.  I know his corp. He vollies down the block from me. He might be an MFR but he is an observer who knows how to backboard. Lets not get carried away. 



> Do we not read about PTSD from tragic events involving our young and in our military?It can occur to any age, but has been documented to have an increase in younger adults. Again, what event that might trigger is really unknown.


 The trigger in unknown?  And it can happen at any age?  So Teenagers can not observe EMS calls?  Hmmm



> I have seen & witnessed young adults that obtained PTSD from exposure to an event while as a Explorer. Again, the mind is not emotionally or psychologically developed enough..argue all you want and attempt to justify; it is scientifically proven. [


What is scientifically proven?  Yes teenagers are not fully emotionally developed.  Yet you assert PTSD happan at any age with unknown triggers. So we should lock teenagers up so that they don't become emotionally injure until what age?  And show me the lawsuits of for teenagers suffering PTSD while observing on anambulance. This is the wrong approach.  



> Do we see pre-teen and teenagers working in a surgery suite, ICU, CCU, even in the ER? Why not? It is definitely more structured and a better controlled environment than in the field, but we acclaim it is okay? How asinine!


Again you have the wrong premise.  We are not arguing for Doogiehouse.  And *yes* high school and pre med college kids vollie in the hospital. Nursing & medic students under 21 are found in the hospital all the time. This includes the ER for all of them seeing more than what I get on my ambulance. 



> EMS is a division of the medical profession. It needs to be provided by well educated, stable, experienced individuals


 Depression amoung MDs is increasingly becoming recognized. They aren't teenagers.  They hide their depression and addictions because their lively hood is at stake. MDs have a highly succesful suicide rate because of the medical know how.  I guess we shouldn't let MDs ride in the ambulance either

R/r 911[/QUOTE]


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## firecoins (May 14, 2008)

> Maybe, if you only respond to grannies falling and injuring their hip or the diabetic that forgot to eat or citizens only needing taxi service... that would be great but that is not what occurs in real life or in today's real EMS.



I am sorry but it scientifically proven that this country is aging. EMS calls reflect this. You will be picking up grannies falling quite often.  I don't know where you ride Rid but yeah that contains 90% of EMS calls. "Real Life" and "Real EMS" isn't just ejections.

I would love to see your numbers RId on many "real life" and "real EMS" calls you take.

19 year old mayor.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h_XqeK0mwVYALet1vAn8WLLifYFgD90L62IG0


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## CFRBryan347768 (May 14, 2008)

firecoins said:


> Teenagers don't provider service..  CFRBrian doesn't provide service noir does his ambulance corp rely on him to do.  I know his corp. He vollies down the block from me. He might be an MFR but he is an observer who knows how to backboard. Lets not get carried away.



Hmm...its a little more than that but im going to go disappear on this thread lol.


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## CFRBryan347768 (May 14, 2008)

CFRBryan347768 said:


> Hmm...its a little more than that but im going to go disappear on this thread lol.



Just an add on this is what we have to do to pass the class 
http://www.health.state.ny.us/nysdoh/ems/pdf/cfrpse08-06.pdf


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## Jeremy89 (May 14, 2008)

So I guess I'm confused as to what you guys (Rid, Flight-LP...) are saying.  Maybe some of you have had bad experience with younger EMT's??  That's fine, but you can't stereotype everyone by their age.  Heck, there are 30 year olds that can't make decisions under pressure.  Age is just a number and by no means defines how competent a person is.  It can provide a guideline for such, but it must be taken on a situation specific basis.  Yes, I agree there are many people in EMS that shouldn't be, but the fact is that they are there because they passed a test and someone felt they were qualified to provide care for others.

I just can't understand why age is such a big issue....  Please feel free to elaborate, but play nice...


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## CFRBryan347768 (May 14, 2008)

Jeremy89 said:


> So I guess I'm confused as to what you guys (Rid, Flight-LP...) are saying.  Maybe some of you have had bad experience with younger EMT's??  That's fine, but you can't stereotype everyone by their age.  Heck, there are 30 year olds that can't make decisions under pressure.  Age is just a number and by no means defines how competent a person is.  It can provide a guideline for such, but it must be taken on a situation specific basis.  Yes, I agree there are many people in EMS that shouldn't be, but the fact is that they are there because they passed a test and someone felt they were qualified to provide care for others.
> 
> I just can't understand why age is such a big issue....  Please feel free to elaborate, but play nice...



Well from what  I understood, it is believed that age represents maturity, which isn't necessarily true, although most of the time I can agree that most people under the age of 22 are very immature. But that shouldnt mean you close it down for everybody. I my self at the age of 13 had to grow up very quick and I believe I have the maturity of some one well into their 30's but thats not pertinent. Also I gathered from this thread that because certain parts of your brain aren't developed it can leave you with post traumatic stress more often than those that are fully developed. I think any one can suffer from that at any age.


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## Jeremy89 (May 14, 2008)

CFRBryan347768 said:


> Well from what  I understood, it is believed that age represents maturity, which isn't necessarily true, although most of the time I can agree that most people under the age of 22 are very immature. But that shouldnt mean you close it down for everybody. I my self at the age of 13 had to grow up very quick and I believe I have the maturity of some one well into their 30's but thats not pertinent. Also I gathered from this thread that because certain parts of your brain aren't developed it can leave you with post traumatic stress more often than those that are fully developed. I think any one can suffer from that at any age.



Very true.  My mom's friend hit his forehead on an altar when he was 13.  Even today at 41 he seems childish at times- like he stopped developing or something.


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## Jon (May 14, 2008)

folks... I've merged the 2 threads on the "Junior Member" discussion, just so that we don't have to repeat ourselves, as they are both active right now.

Jon
EMTLife CL


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## Flight-LP (May 14, 2008)

Jeremy89 said:


> So I guess I'm confused as to what you guys (Rid, Flight-LP...) are saying.  Maybe some of you have had bad experience with younger EMT's??  That's fine, but you can't stereotype everyone by their age.  Heck, there are 30 year olds that can't make decisions under pressure.  Age is just a number and by no means defines how competent a person is.  It can provide a guideline for such, but it must be taken on a situation specific basis.  Yes, I agree there are many people in EMS that shouldn't be, but the fact is that they are there because they passed a test and someone felt they were qualified to provide care for others.
> 
> I just can't understand why age is such a big issue....  Please feel free to elaborate, but play nice...



Actually I can stereotype by age. CHILDREN belong in school, not on an ambulance. I do not have time to babysit a kid while functioning as a Paramedic, nor do I need to worry about their safety while in a potentially volatile environment. Or one of them playing with a dirty needle and stabbing themselves. Or one mouthing off to a patients family because he didn't like the way they were treating their teenage daughter (all have happened to me personally, part of the reason why kids are no longer allowed on our ambulances). In many cases I 'm not worried about the child themselves, but more their moronic sue-happy parents. Finish High School, then obtain your EMT-B. As Rid stated, most of my high school seniors do not ever take the NR exam. They are disinterested in the acquisition of education, they want to see the cool :censored::censored::censored::censored: (quoted verbatim from a student). 

Sure they passed a test, but that doesn't amount to a hill of beans around here. Very few Basics run 911 to begin with and all paid local agencies run Paramedics on each truck. So unlike some area like Darien, Ct., we actually have professionals to run our EMS and do not feel the need to allow uneducated kids run around on an ambulance. For every one of our openings, we get many applications. We hire experienced, mature, and career minded EMT's, children need not apply............................

Besides, Texas was smart enough to regulate that all EMT's will be over the age of 18!


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## Ridryder911 (May 14, 2008)

This is a profession, not a baby sitting organization. If you do not perform care, and just there to watch, go to the movies. I do not have time, nor should I have to have the responsibility to watch you, partner, and then the patient as well. 

This is why EMT courses in high school is declining. As well, most EMS services do not want riders, voyeurs on the ambulance. Sorry, I do NOT see volunteers in ER performing or even watching procedures.. it's called patient privacy for a reason. The volunteers are allowed to deliver charts, ice, and be gofers (go for this and that) and that's it. Even LPN's which are licensed nurses are not even allowed to work in critical care areas.. and you assume a volunteer is able to? C'mon let's get real! 

Want more information, I suggest googling National EMS Educators Association, JEMS, Psychology for Health Care Educators, etc. Do a lit research..  

Obviously, you have never seen or dealt with those in EMS that suffer PTSD. I have and still do, it is not pretty and it is devastating to those that have it. Even the strong, older medics that have experience can suffer it. Now, let's reclarify that it more prominent to those that are younger and lack personal life history. So why, would a medical community want to even endanger or expose to youth to a possible problem? Has it happened? How many times.. whom knows? I know of at least two, and that is too many. Who is going to be responsible? 

Sorry, one does not have to be "exposed" or be placed in a working environment to obtain knowledge before going to an adult level EMT course. Sorry, observers are just voyeurs. 
Since you do not really represent an educational institution, patient privacy should be concern. Do the medics ask prior to observing if it is okay with them? Do they even have an option? 

I do not understand the "hurry"? EMS will be there, for mature, well educated individuals. Go to school, obtain lab and clinical experience, then enter the profession like all other professions. 

In the future, there will be tougher and more restrictions for those entering the profession. It is in the making now, we have too. You are right "Baby Boomers" are going to be a problem, we will need professionals to deliver that care.

p.s : You ask how many"real patient interaction" I have encountered? Take your age and double it + some, that will get you the number of years. For patients, it would be literally in the thousands. I routinely respond to at least 12-16 emergency calls per shift on EMS (ten days a month), and in ER usually see at least 20-30 patients myself, ICU three patients (with Christmas trees) at the least 1 on a vent.. Is that enough patient's or experience, would you like to compare numbers?   

R/r 911


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## Jeremy89 (May 14, 2008)

Flight-LP said:


> We hire experienced, mature, and career minded EMT's, children need not apply............................



How is one supposed to get experience if no one will hire without experience?  If one can say that he/she is familiar with some aspects of patient care through volunteering/observing at an ER or an ambo, I would be much more likely to choose that person over some guy who just completed his EMT course.



Flight-LP said:


> Besides, Texas was smart enough to regulate that all EMT's will be over the age of 18!



So is Arizona.  I am 19.  What is the exact "age of responsibility"?  When does one stop being referred to as a "child" and start being called an adult???  No matter what your opinion is, again, you can't assume that stereotype applies to all people that age.  If people were more open minded about younger people, I might have a job by now.  Frankly, I think the hiring manager(s) sees "Birthday:  5/3/89" and throws the application out before reading anymore.  Unfortunately there's nothing I can do because (to my knowledge) employer's are able to discriminate by age.


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## Flight-LP (May 14, 2008)

Jeremy89 said:


> How is one supposed to get experience if no one will hire without experience?  If one can say that he/she is familiar with some aspects of patient care through volunteering/observing at an ER or an ambo, I would be much more likely to choose that person over some guy who just completed his EMT course.
> 
> 
> 
> So is Arizona.  I am 19.  What is the exact "age of responsibility"?  When does one stop being referred to as a "child" and start being called an adult???  No matter what your opinion is, again, you can't assume that stereotype applies to all people that age.  If people were more open minded about younger people, I might have a job by now.  Frankly, I think the hiring manager(s) sees "Birthday:  5/3/89" and throws the application out before reading anymore.  Unfortunately there's nothing I can do because (to my knowledge) employer's are able to discriminate by age.



Watching is not experience, you can do that on youtube! Gain experience working interfacility transfers for a private company. Become proficient in assessing patients, obtaining vitals, writing documentation, and interpersonal communication / interaction. Or better yet, go to Paramedic school. Gain a valuable education in the process................

You seem to be having a comprehension issue. I am referring to individuals under the age of 18 as children, the same interpretation that many state's have. The question presented was pertaining to kids being on an ambulance, not you and your limited experience. That particular question has been answered. Again, YES I can stereotype people by age, just as insurance companies and EMS agencies do everyday. Sorry if thats an issue for you.........


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## Jolt (May 14, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> Sorry, observers are just voyeurs.






			
				Dictionary.com said:
			
		

> vo·yeur
> 
> a person who engages in voyeurism.
> 
> Compare Peeping Tom.





			
				Dictionary.com said:
			
		

> vo·yeur·ism
> 
> –noun the practice of obtaining sexual gratification by looking at sexual objects or acts, esp. secretively.



Sorry.  It's a word you don't see all the time, so I had to look it up.


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## CFRBryan347768 (May 14, 2008)

Flight-LP said:


> Watching is not experience, you can do that on youtube! Gain experience working interfacility transfers for a private company. Become proficient in assessing patients, obtaining vitals, writing documentation, and interpersonal communication / interaction. Or better yet, go to Paramedic school. Gain a valuable education in the process................



Sounds like what I do every Tuesday 7-11pm and Saturday 9-7pm. And Paramedic will start in less than a year(hopefully) So now in your eyes can I be on an ambulance?


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## JPINFV (May 14, 2008)

Jolt said:


> Sorry.  It's a word you don't see all the time, so I had to look it up.





> 1. A person who derives sexual gratification from observing the naked bodies or sexual acts of others, especially from a secret vantage point.
> _  2. An obsessive observer of sordid or sensational subjects._
> -American Heritage Dictionary


Also on the dictionary.com website.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=voyeurism


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## Jolt (May 14, 2008)

JPINFV said:


> Also on the dictionary.com website.
> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=voyeurism



I'm not saying the word usage was wrong, just that for some reason I found it comical.

:wacko:


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## firecoins (May 14, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> This is a profession, not a baby sitting organization. If you do not perform care, and just there to watch, go to the movies. I do not have time, nor should I have to have the responsibility to watch you, partner, and then the patient as well.


Really? I guess we can throw out medical school because there are medical students who are in the hospital to observe.  There was a whole division of paramedic program set to "observe" medics in the ambulance and nurses and MDs in the hospital. There seems to be alot of observing going on in the medic profession. 



> This is why EMT courses in high school is declining. As well, most EMS services do not want riders, voyeurs on the ambulance.


This nonsense.  EMT classes here are filled with 17 and 18 year olds.  The EMT-B profession pays $10/hr.  The only people who fill this position are 18 to 25. 



> Sorry, I do NOT see volunteers in ER performing or even watching procedures.. it's called patient privacy for a reason.


Volunteers are not allowed to perform procedures for insurance. Not for privacy reasons. Volunteers do in fact watch becuase what there asked to do puts them in patient areas. Some volunteer programs have volunteers following doctors, PA are other professionals. Voluneers work in the ER. Its a fact.  



> Want more information, I suggest googling National EMS Educators Association, JEMS, Psychology for Health Care Educators, etc. Do a lit research..


I have doen research. Thank you.



> Obviously, you have never seen or dealt with those in EMS that suffer PTSD. I have and still do, it is not pretty and it is devastating to those that have it. Even the strong, older medics that have experience can suffer it.


 Are we talking about people under 18 or just threats to anyone in EMS?  PTSD is aproblem for all EMS personnel, Cops, fireifighters, Doctors, nurses and just about everyone who does anything in the real world. PTSD doesn't just attack EMS workers or teenagers on a call.  



> Now, let's reclarify that it more prominent to those that are younger and lack personal life history. So why, would a medical community want to even endanger or expose to youth to a possible problem? Has it happened? How many times.. whom knows? I know of at least two, and that is too many. Who is going to be responsible?


Lack personal life history?  I am sorry but "youths" are exposed to things that cause PTSD outside of EMS all the time.  





> Since you do not really represent an educational institution, patient privacy should be concern. Do the medics ask prior to observing if it is okay with them? Do they even have an option?


Actually we do represent an educational institution. Youth corp are put into CPR classes, PPE classes and required to become familiar with all the equipment on an ambulance. The medics actually love to have youth corp members.  The youth corp members actually have a desire to learn unlike many of their adult EMT-B counterparts.  





> p.s : You ask how many"real patient interaction" I have encountered?
> R/r 911



You seem to infer every call you take is major trauma.  It isn't.  EMS is not like the Iraq war either.  We have hundreds of kids go through our youth corp and go on to get in the medical profession. Somehow none of them get PTSD.  Many of these go to top notch private colleges and state schools before entering graduate level medical training.  The worst thing we could do would be discontinue this program because some people want to be overly cautious.  They don't want responsibility in teaching teenagers.  The number of MDs out of youth corp are growning. These people will be my boss in several years and I am damn proud to get them started.   Currently there are 2 former youth corp members in med school. We have 2 more who just got accepted.  It started somewhere.


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## JPINFV (May 15, 2008)

firecoins said:


> Really? I guess we can throw out medical school because there are medical students who are in the hospital to observe.  There was a whole division of paramedic program set to "observe" medics in the ambulance and nurses and MDs in the hospital. There seems to be alot of observing going on in the medic profession.


Bad distinction. One category (health care students) are getting experience that is directly relevant to their current education. Pre-meds are not in a medical degree program, and as such, do not fit into this category. The reality, though, is that the participation of volunteers is determined not only by the setup of the program, but also by the volunteers themselves. This is why, even in the same program, one volunteer can be involved in patient care while another is stuck restocking the supply cart. 


> This nonsense.  EMT classes here are filled with 17 and 18 year olds.  The EMT-B profession pays $10/hr.  The only people who fill this position are 18 to 25.


Supply>demand=low wages. Low barrier to entry (110 hours)=low wages. The company I worked for (in So. Cal.) had plenty of people in the >25y/o category and the crews I see parked outside of the local dialysis clinic in Boston seem to have an even higher percentage of >25y/o working for them. 



> Lack personal life history?  I am sorry but "youths" are exposed to things that cause PTSD outside of EMS all the time.


"Other stuff happens" is a poor argument. It would be like saying, "Don't worry about this toxin, after all the kids are probably exposed to lead paint anyways." Just because "other stuff happens" doesn't mean we shouldn't work to reduce "stuff" in addition to "other stuff."


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## piranah (May 15, 2008)

well...I will have to say this has been a very informative discussion...and just for the record I am 18 yrs old and work 911 in a fairly large city along with working private tranfers/911....my "inexperienced" self was just offered a federal naval fire dept. position of a man soon to retire....and the way I see it is every single person on this forum is inexperienced.....there is always something to learn...always experience to gain....not to offend anyone of coarse.....


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## Ridryder911 (May 15, 2008)

Sorry CPR, BSE are not usually considered formal classes, nor a youth corps considered a formal training institution. As well, medical students perform clinicals or rotations associated with an approved school, not observations. 

I can tell many of you never have worked or been exposed to teaching hospitals or medical students, even P.A.or N.P. students. One usually have to complete a year of course work before even "making rounds". There is definitively a difference and distinction of making rounds and "observing". Ever heard of second year, third year, etc..? Those P.A. students I bet are not considered volunteers if you ask administration. They maybe volunteering their time, but I bet they as well do not consider themselves "volunteers". 

I can assure at every hospital my students attend (nursing and paramedics alike) have to be cleared, immunized, as well as a formal set of objectives, list of skills authorized to perform, and liability insurance. Even my employees, has to have clearance to observe and be monitored by the medical director. Again, JCAHO is very firm whom can be in critical care areas. 

I also challenge any "real" work from volunteers in ER. With the JCAHO and other ruling organizations, even technicians that are employed have very limited capabilities. Again, if LPN's are not able to function, I do doubt that a volunteer will be utilized. As well, not only for insurance purposes, but as well since the volunteers are NOT employees of the hospital, potential breech of confidentiality has to be concerned as well. 

Want EMT salaries to go up? Quit training kids, as well as your courses should be more restrictive for entrance requirements. Alike other health care professionals there is a supply & demand. Even fire departments require one to be "legal age", again there is a reason. 

Really, this discussion does not matter. Within a few years, the EMT role will change, it is a given. Most states will have to adopt to such regulations for insurance purposes and litigation coverage. Workmen's comp (which is extremely high in EMS) will require it be manned by adults. Paramedic education in most areas will be at least an associate degree (usually 3 years) in length so most will be at least 20-21 years of age by the time they finish.  

I know of NO hospital in my area that allows any volunteers (most are above the age of 70 anyway) to participate in patient care.. as what? If they have no license or formal training, again I ask what are they really going to do? Do you as well ask each patient before they enter if it is okay to be "observed during treatment"? 

R/r 911


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## JPINFV (May 15, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> I know of NO hospital in my area that allows any volunteers (most are above the age of 70 anyway) to participate in patient care.. as what? If they have no license or formal training, again I ask what are they really going to do? Do you as well ask each patient before they enter if it is okay to be "observed during treatment"?
> 
> R/r 911


The program I was a part of in college was geared solely to pre-healthcare students (nursing, med, allied health, etc) and was separate from the hospital auxiliary (mostly seniors and ran things like the book cart, information, gift store, etc). During the 6 months that I was in the ER, I essentially acted as an ER tech except I couldn't do 12 leads (the techs don't start IVs and the volunteers couldn't do 12 leads because it goes into the patient's chart). For example, some of the things I did was hook patient's up to monitors, transport lab specimens, patient transport (including solo if the patient didn't need to be monitored), CPR, assist with procedures (foley caths, got to watch a LP in case the doctor's phone rang [sterile procedure]), and restocking. In general, if it wasn't a situation where it was a 'more the merrier' (cardioversions, for example), yes permission was obtained (ex, watching an endoscopy for example). Of course the amount of 'action' that the volunteer was involved with almost completely depended on the level of self motivation of the volunteer and how well the volunteer got along with the ER staff.


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## firecoins (May 15, 2008)

Youth corp members. Get training.  Observe ambulance operations and begin participation based on the individual's ability to perform. Hundred of high school students have gone through the program.  Not one case of PTSD. No it doesn't demean EMS to have a training ground for high school students. This program will gladly continue to produce students going into the helath care and public service areas.   

Hospitals have training programs for pre health high school and college students.  So do local cops and firefighters.

I have an econ degree.  $10 is the local pay for EMT-Bs doing interfacility transfers.  There aren't enough EMT-Bs available either.  There are always job openings.  It doesn't appear there is an overabundant number of EMT's going round.  

18 is legal age in the United States.


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## Ridryder911 (May 15, 2008)

firecoins said:


> Youth corp members. Get training.  Observe ambulance operations and begin participation based on the individual's ability to perform. Hundred of high school students have gone through the program.  Not one case of PTSD. No it doesn't demean EMS to have a training ground for high school students. This program will gladly continue to produce students going into the health care and public service areas.
> 
> Hospitals have training programs for pre health high school and college students.  So do local cops and firefighters.
> 
> ...



Are you for certain on those statements? You have access of each of those youth corps private medical records? Wow! 

I am not talking about a formal institution, with authorized instructors; that have contracts with hospitals and have arranged clinical/observation time. That is whole different approach and idea. Your confusing clinicals with objectives with just observing to see something. As well, there is an acceptance for college age (career minded) than teenage kids. 

Not an abundance of EMT"s? Well your the only part of the U.S.  As well, if there was a real shortage the pay would increase, again law of supply and demand. Check out the states numbers of EMT's per state and I believe you will see that the U.S. is deluged with EMT's. Simply put, the reason is that in a few days there is always another class getting out. Why pay a decent wage when you can even get them for free? As well, again inter-facility transports as non-emergency usually is not considered EMS. Most of those utilize EMT's just for an EVO and to assist staff members. 

As even evidenced here. Many that have great inspirations, only to find out what the "real" business is like. Many are disillusioned that the Basic EMT is considered a professional level, and at one time it was, now the course content has been diluted, no entry requirements, national testing has an over 80% pass rate, and from 2 -16 weeks duration; we have a new crop to pick from.

Like I described, its going to be a mute point. Liability, increased litigation, new and increasing privacy and HIPPA violations, workmen's comp coverage, etc. will remove only those that need to be there. 

R/r911


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## BossyCow (May 15, 2008)

No, age doesn't automatically guarantee maturity, but it does increase the odds. I automatically negate the validity of every young person who cries out about how mature they are. I've seen very mature young people, and none of them ever bragged about their maturity.


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## LE-EMT (May 15, 2008)

AMEN Bossy.  AMEN


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## jordanfstop (May 15, 2008)

I agree with the lack of PTSD with youth members. I am close with a lot of the junior members in my corps. Most of the kids who have these "bad calls" or "f'd up calls" are motivated to keep working. Example, two girls who are friends with eachother joined our corps. Their very first call they had a double stabbing. They're now two very active members in our corps. I have come across very few junior members in my corps that have been worse than the senior members (even by percentage.)


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## Ridryder911 (May 15, 2008)

There again is another misunderstanding of PTSD. It does not always "stop" the individual from performing or functioning at work or performing in their job. In fact two of the Explorer's I am aware of that experienced PTSD was never "reported" for any "write" up and they pursued into medicine, both becoming physicians. 

I really doubt that most of the members posting here would be able to detect PTSD. Even psychological experts have a hard time diagnosing the syndrome. That is why CISD is considered such a crock of poop. Unfortunately, one of the signs of PTSD is that it is very well hidden, and especially never discussed among even close or family members. In fact, it has surprising high suicide rates which usually surprises those close to them. 

I am not saying it affects all; but if we know scientifically that the mind is NOT ready, again why take the chance. This goes against medical ethics and technically liable if something should occur. We know the risks.. yet ignored the facts. 

R/r 911


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## Flight-LP (May 15, 2008)

CFRBryan347768 said:


> Sounds like what I do every Tuesday 7-11pm and Saturday 9-7pm. And Paramedic will start in less than a year(hopefully) So now in your eyes can I be on an ambulance?



If you are over 18, then sure. If not, review my previous posts for clarification................


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## ffemt8978 (May 15, 2008)

BossyCow said:


> No, age doesn't automatically guarantee maturity, but it does increase the odds. I automatically negate the validity of every young person who cries out about how mature they are. I've seen very mature young people, and none of them ever bragged about their maturity.



Truer words have not been spoken in a long time.


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## TgerFoxMark (May 17, 2008)

Ok, i got through 8 pages of this crap. Now i mean NO disrespect.
Rid, Your an old, jaded person from EMS. You have a problem with the younger EMT's 
You have issues with someone who isnt a full Paramedic.
You ACTUALLY seem to belive that as a Paramedic you can provide care. ITS ALL BS. about the best thing we can do in EMS can be done by ALL levels. 
We have a term for it here. it is called Deisel Thearpy. There is very little that can be done in the ambulance other than stablize a pt. and get them to the hospital where THE real work is done.
You work in a hospital, thats great. Try to work there without ALL the Doctors, Nurses, Radiologists, TEchs, Resp thearpists, Surgons, Phlebotomists... THE list is Many miles long. that are required to keep the doors open.
Its not just EMS that needs to be redone, its the Entire system. 

Yes, I am a younger person Myself. I know my spelling sucks, but i am typing this on a cell phone anyways. 
When i work in the city, i see alot of clueless EMT-B's, -I's AND -P's 
I also see that its not the age of the person, but the person themselves that determines if they are any good, and capable of helping others.

I do not CARE how many letters come after your name on a sheet of paper.
I only Care if you help those we are here to help.
Everyone Ages different, but thats a fact of life.
(yes i :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: about higher insurance rates for driving my car when i never have been in a wreck or got a ticket)
Its actually not just Healthcare that needs reform. Its ALL of Society.
You cannot judge a person on statistics.
I am more than a generalized number.
I have been an EMT-B for 1 year. I have now planned to move ahead into bigger and better goals as my recent posts have said.
I never saw being a Basic the end all of my carreer. I saw it as more of a testing the waters stage. To see if it was really what i wanted to do.
/end rant


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## Flight-LP (May 17, 2008)

TgerFoxMark said:


> You ACTUALLY seem to belive that as a Paramedic you can provide care. ITS ALL BS. about the best thing we can do in EMS can be done by ALL levels.
> We have a term for it here. it is called Deisel Thearpy. There is very little that can be done in the ambulance other than stablize a pt. and get them to the hospital where THE real work is done.



That is the most ignorant statement I have heard in a long time (and there have been quite a few lately!)

First off, its Diesel. If you are going to identify it as a therapy, at least spell it correctly.

Second off, any body can haul arse to the ER. Doesn't have to be an EMT. If memory serves me correctly, this was the methodology utilized for many years until it was realized that training and education can and does impact a patients outcome. This was the sole reasoning behind why Paramedicine was even started. Sorry if you feel threatened by individuals who can diagnose, intervene, and be part of the collaborative health care team. Feel free to use your antiquinated 1960's version of pre-hospital care. The rest of us will continue to do what we have been trying to do for years, promote professionalism in our chosen career for the delivery of quality care..........

Gotta call, will continue later............


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## mdkemt (May 17, 2008)

So my question is what is an appropriate age to work on an ambulance.  I started at 18 as a EMR at 19 was a PCP and 4 years later I am going back for my ACP.  So that makes me 23 and I will be 24 when I finish my ACP.  Am I still a kid and should be in school not on an ambulance?  Or when I was 18 should I have not been given an opportunity of a lifetime to gain experience with a company?

Honestly!  At 18 you should be considered an adult.  At 18 you should act as an adult.  Granted now I understand working with so called "kids" and I am not that old or experienced.  They can get carried away and be childish.  I still however think they deserve the right to work if they can prove themselves.  That is why companies create probation periods.

MDK


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## Ridryder911 (May 17, 2008)

mdkemt said:


> That is why companies create probation periods.
> 
> MDK



Your right, even though we require the age of 21. I get to give them a life experience, I  "discharge" them.... don't even really need a definite reason, in fact, it can be kinda fun! 

R/r 911


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## ffemt8978 (May 18, 2008)

Play nice people...


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## Jeremy89 (May 18, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> Your right, even though we require the age of 21. I get to give them a life experience, I  "discharge" them.... don't even really need a definite reason, in fact, it can be kinda fun!
> 
> R/r 911



That seems very rude of you to take pleasure in firing others.  Is there a point you are trying to make?  I'd hate to have someone with that personality treating me...

*disclaimer*  no personal attack intended.  just wondering what this guy's rationale is in acting the way he does...


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## Ridryder911 (May 18, 2008)

TgerFoxMark said:


> Ok, i got through 8 pages of this crap. Now i mean NO disrespect.
> Rid, Your an old, jaded person from EMS. You have a problem with the younger EMT's
> You have issues with someone who isnt a full Paramedic.
> You ACTUALLY seem to believe that as a Paramedic you can provide care. ITS ALL BS. about the best thing we can do in EMS can be done by ALL levels.
> ...



Not really Jaded at all ; in fact most students always request me! What I do NOT tolerate is being stupd,and providing poor patient care, ignorance is allowed as long as one improves. Sorry, been on and continue to be on all side of the fences, where most have not even been. So the difference is I KNOW what medicine is and what it is NOT. Basic level is first-aid care, that's it. A couple of slapping on bandages and splinting, and yes don't forget the oxygen @ high flow rate, BSI, and tx for shock.. Yes, we make you memorize that.. 

Sorry, were you not the one wanted to "advance" in medicine, and you do not believe in statistics, or evidenced medicine but believe in "Diesel Medicine" .. What kinda of educated statement is that? 

I work in a Level I Trauma Center, one of the few advanced level trauma nurses, and I will tell you "fast" driving has NEVER saved anyone. Apparently, you have missed the point of "scrubbing" in, initialing stabilization in the suite, and then finally get to go to surgery & you really think that an additional 2 minutes is going to matter? I bet you still believe in the "Golden Hour myth" as well. 

I don't know how advanced your area is in EMS, but I have spoke at Indiana Conferences (great MASH Bashes!) and know there are several progressive EMS there. As well, know there is very LITTLE in difference in care for cardiac patients, other than transferring them to cath lab.

As for as letting people go... you bet, I enjoy clearing house. This is a profession I take very serious (what other profesion should be more serious?), a job, with employers, and you get paid to know what to do, how to perform, function. I will guide, provide information to you to make you succeed, it is up to you to listen  and take action. 

Too many believe this is a "training ground".. Yes, we  all learn something everyday, however; everyone should be competent in the minimal levels without prompting. 



R/r 911


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## LE-EMT (May 18, 2008)

OK so most of you people are totally missing the point of this thread.....Members Under 18 / High School Age Members.  Not the 18 plus.  

As far as Rid being a ................Very knowledgeable mentor.... There is a purpose and definitely a place for those who can be blunt and make the decision to terminate those who can't preform the duties needed.  If it was all fluffy bunnies and roses nothing will ever get done.


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## Ridryder911 (May 18, 2008)

LE-EMT said:


> OK so most of you people are totally missing the point of this thread.....Members Under 18 / High School Age Members.  Not the 18 plus.
> 
> As far as Rid being a ................Very knowledgeable mentor.... There is a purpose and definitely a place for those who can be blunt and make the decision to terminate those who can't preform the duties needed.  If it was all fluffy bunnies and roses nothing will ever get done.



Thank you. There is too much misconception that this is a "club" that one joins to find out if they want to go into medicine, nursing, or whatever. At the same time many fail that majority of us working in this profession takes it *very serious* As a profession, we do NOT want KIDS, to be harmed, injured both physically and emotionally.

Sorry, it not "playtime" out there. Medics get killed, injured, permanently maimed everyday. So please don't get upset from professionals who do this everyday, for years, and even on plan on retiring from it, to be picky. Our patients deserve only the best, not any second rate material. Dam* right I am picky. 

I am not rude, or mean, but I take my FTO/Supervisor position and responsbilities very serious. Downtime means some rest, joking around, but if you don't or an ace at being a medic, time to hit the books, and education room to practice. If you don't, I will have you discharged. Remember, *everyone has a boss, and can be replaced*, that is my job and those with similar positions. 

What I have see more from posts are ones that really work in the field with experience and those that voice opinions and really have limited or no experience. In which, I have to just smile.. realistically, they do not even understand. How can you? 

Seriously, taking a 150 hour course, does not make one an expert in EMS, nor even hardly beginning into the EMS profession, yes a *starting point*. 

Maybe another thread should be started with credentials and experience, up-front and honest. We did this once and found it very interesting the diversity of people on the forum. 

R/r 911


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## mdkemt (May 18, 2008)

I think Rid has a point.  A valid point and in the field you need to be harsh when it comes to patient and employee safety.  Kids need to be kids.  I think EMS turns to be a stepping stone for a lot of people just like LPNs use it as a stepping stone to being a RN.


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## firecoins (May 18, 2008)

Patients do deserve the best. And they get it.  But thats just me.



> Maybe another thread should be started with credentials and experience, up-front and honest. We did this once and found it very interesting the diversity of people on the forum


. 
Start us off.


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## JPINFV (May 18, 2008)

one has been started here:
http://emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=7785


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## ERnurse17 (May 19, 2008)

In WI u cant get a lisence unless ur 18


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## firemedic7982 (May 21, 2008)

emtwacker710 said:


> asclepius, I agree with you, all teens/young adults are different, I know many that are more mature and know more than some adults, I also know some that are the most immature thing you can imagine, but I believe if the right teens come along and are willing to learn and do the work in the fire/EMS field (without putting themselves in danger initially) then we should welcome them and teach them, and allow them to observe.



Where are we allowing these children to "perform" EMTWhaker?

I agree with R/R, and Flight-LP. EMS is NOT a place for children. If we continue to allow such faggotry to occure, and prostitute our profession to anyone with a pulse regardless of age, the monicre of "Ambulance Driver" will prevail. I don't know about any of you but I am filled with anger from the bowels of my soul when some idiot calls me an ambulance driver. 

R/R is unequivocally right. This is a PROFESSION, and we are in the medical field. We practice the age old ART of medicine same as a nurse, surgeon, or anyone else. It is NOT a place for children, and the weak at heart. 

Back to Whacker's comment above: You are a volunteer, which is where most of us start. There is a clear definable line between being a volunteer medic, and a career medic. Jumping in a squad, of an ambo everynow and then is not the same art as doing it for a career. You dabble in it, and personally I am almost offended that you would begin to presume that your level of expertise is anywhere near the same plain as mine, R/R/, LP's or any other vet. I was a volly for a LONG time. I decided to make what I loved into a career. And my expertise, and outlooks changed ten fold. 

Children are not physically, mentally, or emotionally equipped to effectively mitigate this profession adequately under adverse conditions PERIOD!


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## daedalus (May 21, 2008)

I regret my earlier comments on this topic. I had not watched the video. What if those children had to respond to a terrorist incident, where people were crushed bleeding and dying? Screaming for help? What if these children had to black tag someone. What if they rolled up to an officer down multiple GSW? No. This cannot be allowed. Maybe if all it is, is helping granny after she fell. These children in the video ARE THE EMS. They are not explorers. For some of us, this is a career, not a nifty cool program for high school students.


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## Stillen GLE (May 22, 2008)

Whats Up Guys Iam New Here. moved this if you have to not exactly sure were to post anyway. Iam 17 and From New Jersey i was recently just CPR Certified and now Iam looking into becoming a EMT. i orginally wanted to become a Fire Fighter but i have very bad asthma so it would be impossible for me to work in that field. my friend is a fire fighter so he tends to tell me stuff every now and then. i was just wondering also what should i expect on the test and whats expected of me. also we gear do you get meaning. like pagers shirts pants etc. and also what kind of Emergency Lights can you have in your POV. any help would be appreciated thanks alot.


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## Flight-LP (May 22, 2008)

Stillen GLE said:


> Whats Up Guys Iam New Here. moved this if you have to not exactly sure were to post anyway. Iam 17 and From New Jersey i was recently just CPR Certified and now Iam looking into becoming a EMT. i orginally wanted to become a Fire Fighter but i have very bad asthma so it would be impossible for me to work in that field. my friend is a fire fighter so he tends to tell me stuff every now and then. i was just wondering also what should i expect on the test and whats expected of me. also we gear do you get meaning. like pagers shirts pants etc. and also what kind of Emergency Lights can you have in your POV. any help would be appreciated thanks alot.




My troll'dar is blaring................

For a minute I actually thought you were serious until you said POV. It's unusual for a clueless newbie to use that term.

If I'm wrong, then prove me wrong. In the meantime, try the search feature and just read a little bit in general. All of your questions will be answered.......................


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## Stillen GLE (May 22, 2008)

Flight-LP said:


> My troll'dar is blaring................
> 
> For a minute I actually thought you were serious until you said POV. It's unusual for a clueless newbie to use that term.
> 
> If I'm wrong, then prove me wrong. In the meantime, try the search feature and just read a little bit in general. All of your questions will be answered.......................



What Did i say that you didnt take serious? and what do you mean Clueless Newbie?


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## Ridryder911 (May 22, 2008)

Stillen GLE said:


> Whats Up Guys Iam New Here. moved this if you have to not exactly sure were to post anyway. Iam 17 and From New Jersey i was recently just CPR Certified and now Iam looking into becoming a EMT. i orginally wanted to become a Fire Fighter but i have very bad asthma so it would be impossible for me to work in that field. my friend is a fire fighter so he tends to tell me stuff every now and then. i was just wondering also what should* i expect on the test and whats expected of me. also we gear do you get meaning. like pagers shirts pants etc. and also what kind of Emergency Lights can you have in your POV*. any help would be appreciated thanks alot.



First welcome to the forum Stillen, we are really glad you are here. Now, you make take offense to what I will say, but please this is NOT personal, but as a general overview of the problems I see in EMS. 

Why, should a 17 year old be able to have lights, sirens, etc on their POV or even be able to respond as such. Wow! Driving for only a year of their life and experience and we will allow them to respond with l/s ? Carry all the neat "stuff".. When in real life, responding even in a large emergency vehicle with multiple lights, sirens with highly trained & experienced EVO; still have deadly crashes.  

Again, this is NOT a hobby, or "neat thing" to do! It is a profession. One should only be in EMS because they want to deliver patient care... and that is it. Otherwise, choose another profession paid or volunteer. 

Again, welcome Stillen, I am sure there will be those that can answer your questions, and feel free to chat in. 

R/r 911


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## Stillen GLE (May 22, 2008)

Actually ill be 18 in 2 months but regardless i see what your saying.


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## CFRBryan347768 (May 22, 2008)

Stillen GLE said:


> Whats Up Guys Iam New Here. moved this if you have to not exactly sure were to post anyway. Iam 17 and From New Jersey i was recently just CPR Certified and now Iam looking into becoming a EMT. i orginally wanted to become a Fire Fighter but i have very bad asthma so it would be impossible for me to work in that field. my friend is a fire fighter so he tends to tell me stuff every now and then. i was just wondering also what should i expect on the test and whats expected of me. also we gear do you get meaning. like pagers shirts pants etc. and also what kind of Emergency Lights can you have in your POV. any help would be appreciated thanks alot.



You will find their is really no point to have Emergency Lights, do I have them on my every day vehicle no, the only vehicle I have them on gets put on display(which is currently a mess from roll over.) Also a side note you will notice theirs some very strong opinion on lights, just givin ya a heads up


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## Meursault (May 22, 2008)

CFRBryan347768 said:


> Also a side note you will notice theirs some very strong opinion on lights, just givin ya a heads up



I also recommend you ask about volunteer EMS, combined fire/EMS, advice for the NREMT, personal equipment/jump kits, and drug testing. 

I do, actually, recommend that you familiarize yourself with the rest of your keyboard. Notably commas, apostrophes, and the "Shift" key.

Sadly, my troll senses are not tingling, I think this one's for real.


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## CFRBryan347768 (May 22, 2008)

MrConspiracy said:


> I also recommend you ask about volunteer EMS, combined fire/EMS, advice for the NREMT, personal equipment/jump kits, and drug testing.
> 
> I do, actually, recommend that you familiarize yourself with the rest of your keyboard. Notably commas, apostrophes, and the "Shift" key.
> 
> Sadly, my troll senses are not tingling, I think this one's for real.



Not too sure why I was quoted?


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## Meursault (May 22, 2008)

That was a followup to your post giving the new account advice, not a dig at you.


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## Topher38 (May 22, 2008)

Nocturnatrix said:


> In ny we have youth squads for members 14-18 who want to be a part of the ambulance co.... you have to be 16 to ride but they are students only!
> 
> We do have certified first responders at 17 but you have to be 18 to be an emt. the responders usually have a medic or emt with them from what i hear in neighboring departments i don't have any members under 18 in my dept.
> 
> ...




14! Thats amazing. I have a little brother who is 14, and is NO WAY mature enough to handle even a simple task. I took my first EMT-B class when I turned 16. Dropped out (just got stressed) Re-took another EMT-B class 8 months later and passed the tests. I feel I am mature enough to handle the situations as they present themselves but 14 whooo. No offense to you in anyway, but 14 just blows my mind. Impressive.


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## fortsmithman (May 22, 2008)

Here in the Northwest Territories off duty fire, police and EMS can not legally use emergency lights in their privately owned vehicles.  Only dept owned vehicles can have emergency lights.


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## CFRBryan347768 (May 22, 2008)

Topher38 said:


> 14! Thats amazing. I have a little brother who is 14, and is NO WAY mature enough to handle even a simple task. I took my first EMT-B class when I turned 16. Dropped out (just got stressed) Re-took another EMT-B class 8 months later and passed the tests. I feel I am mature enough to handle the situations as they present themselves but 14 whooo. No offense to you in anyway, but 14 just blows my mind. Impressive.



I agree! To get on the rig here it's 16. And thats after being able to correctly locate all of the items in more than one place. And selecting the right items for the right incident. Stuff like give me an example when you'd use ::fill in the blank::, and mini-scenarios so you can be the gopher. Until you gain the trust of your crew chief.


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## firemedic7982 (May 23, 2008)

Ok.

The young ones on here keep repeating themselves, and it's irritating. 

This is a PROFESSION, a CAREER, a LIVELYHOOD. Period! 
It is NOT as R/R has said over and over. A hobby, something cool, bragging rights, and a part time cheap thrill. You are dealing with peoples lives, and endangering your own. 

You can sit here and justify why you are the teenager who is the exception to the rule all day long. I don't care. I will NEVER let you on my truck. I started as a volunteer F/F when I was 17. I (like most of us) know that I was nowhere near mature enough to handle the situation. You get pissed because people treat you like a kid. YOU ARE A KID! NOTHING in your life can prepare you for this job. You have NO life experience. You don't have enough education, maturity, or inner strength to handle the job well. 

The State of Texas will certify someone at the tender age of 18. I can promise you this... Don't waste your time, NO ONE will hire you!  If they do by some chance, you will not be able to drive, and it will be a private transfer service. You will NOT work 911. I applaud you for having the initiative to explore your possible future. But don't stick your foot in your mouth. You aren't the exception to the rule. You aren't more mature than the other teen sitting next to you.  And to the comment several threads up about "Actually ill be 18 in a few weeks" That right there ... shows your immaturity, and your incapacity to handle an educated adult conversation. 

To my buddy Flight - LP. Great minds think alike .... If you want an entry level job in EMS at a tender age .... Babysit my kids while I go to work. 

Go to college, get a degree, enjoy youth, then in ten years or so become a medic, and then and ONLY if your heart truly lies in it, and you are there to help people.


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## BossyCow (May 23, 2008)

Stillen GLE said:


> Actually ill be 18 in 2 months but regardless i see what your saying.



Wow, really? I'll be 53 in two months!


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## Kate (May 27, 2008)

Hi, I'm a new person to EMTLife. Currently living in Israel and today searched this site for info on Magen David Adom, aka MDA or MADA.  I have calls into that agency regarding taking the EMT basic program and volunteering.  Was going to post here about how the training/experience would transfer to USA.

I switched the EMT Life search to "Israel" when the MDA search wasn't particularly fruitful ... and so came across the debate about "children" riding with EMT crews and training for EMT response, including comments about the program in Israel.  

One assumption I noticed being made in many of the posts is that teens are children. After 2 1/2 years living and working in Jerusalem, I can accurately state that there is a difference between American and Israeli teens.  We Americans think of our teens as "children," to their detriment.  Israelis do not treat or think of their teens as children. 

I have to read the remainder of the posts and isolate specific misconceptions I caught about the under-18 issue, vis a vis Israel.  I may be able to shed light on cultural attitudes, why the youth-responder system works here, why Israelis have confidence in these youth.

So, greetings to everyone, and later...


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## mikeylikesit (May 27, 2008)

Yes minors above the age of 16 should be able to help and ride on an Ambo as a member. i believe this if they are certified and trained mind you. being 18 doesn't give you instant maturity. it does make you insurable but not better than someone younger. let the comments fly, but this is what i think.


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## CFRBryan347768 (May 27, 2008)

mikeylikesit said:


> Yes minors above the age of 16 should be able to help and ride on an Ambo as a member. i believe this if they are certified and trained mind you. being 18 doesn't give you instant maturity. it does make you insurable but not better than someone younger. let the comments fly, but this is what i think.



I think most of the comments have allready been stated, as this thread isnt exactly "new." Every thing that was previously stated will just be repeated check out the other pages.


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## emtashleyb (May 27, 2008)

Im going to have to agree with Ridryder911. I became an emt at 16 through a high school program and I now understand why my father wanted me to wait. (I followed in daddy's foot steps had a heck of a time convincing him to let me). Yes you do get the experience from ride alongs but I felt most of the time I was more of a bother or a bag rack than anything. I was also put in dangerous situation where I had no buisness being. I did a ton of ride alongs in baltimore's fellspoint and had more than enough people become combative and try to take my head off. I also mentioned in another post I made about the 3 year old cardic arrest I got 2 weeks after I got my liscense. It honestly screwed with my head. I dont believe that anyone who is so young should witness things that otherwise they would never even see. There is no way you are mature enough to deal with all the crap that gets thrown at you. NOTHING in classes prepares you for what you see. You can tell them until your blue int he face what to expect but come on what teenager actually sits there and takes everything in I know I didnt. Wait until your older, your skin is thicker and your as mentally stable as one can be until you decide to jump into emergency medicene. Its tough not the place for kids to be screwing around


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## Stillen GLE (May 27, 2008)

I dont get why people have such disrespect against young teens like myself. I dont get it. i come in here for advice and everyone says not to do it. if that was the case no one would be doing it. or in other words people judging others by what they say? that doesnt make any sense. how could you justify someones ability's by what they say. has anyone ever heard of the saying "don't judge a book by its cover" that explains it right there. and to the person that said they joined the Fire Department at 17 what makes a EMT any different nothing except they dont run into burning buildings. so why put down somebody for something they want to do. And if i stand correctly Most EMT squads are Volunteer. they dont get paid. and its not mandatory to answer every call. once again i cant believe i came in here and got a bunch of :censored::censored::censored::censored: for no reason. we all gotta start somewhere.


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## mikeylikesit (May 27, 2008)

CFRBryan347768 said:


> I think most of the comments have allready been stated, as this thread isnt exactly "new." Every thing that was previously stated will just be repeated check out the other pages.


I figured...just didn't want to read 6 pages of this crap^_^


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## NJN (May 27, 2008)

Stillen GLE said:


> I And if i stand correctly Most EMT squads are Volunteer. they dont get paid. and its not mandatory to answer every call.



In NJ most squads are volly. Yes but there are also a lot of private services. And if you want to become a paid EMT-B in NJ, start looking at Private Transports, because the NJ EMT-B is nothing more than a glorified First Aider/O2 administrator. 

I agree that this is a profession not a hobby, even tho i am 16 and riding weekly, i'm looking into this as a possible carrer so don't get onto my back because i am under 18 and all of this.

You asked about Lights on your POV, when and if you do become certified as an EMT and are on a squad that will even allow you to have a Blue Light, it isn't worth it in NJ as it is only a blue light and it gives you no immunity from any NJ traffic laws, no going thru red lights, no speeding etc. 

And finally welcome to the forum and glad to see another face from NJ.


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## triemal04 (May 27, 2008)

Kate-

Good luck on working for MDA; from what I know of them, they've got their act together, and if you can be one of the lucky few to make it a career, you're set.

Out of curiousity, have you always lived in Israel, and if not, for how long, and where did you move from?  I'm only asking because you're right; the perception of the average teens mentality, maturity, resourcefulness, competance, integrity and professionalism is very different between the US and Israel.  The reality between the two is very different also, though not that much different from the perception.  (Hollywood actually has gotten something mostly right for a change)  It's really not as much of a problem of people not giving enough credit to teens, but the fact that many, many, many teens today are...well...children in almost every way.  And with the current social trends being what they are, that won't change anytime soon.  While there will be exceptions, the rule stays the same.

It will be interesting to hear your perspective, but just bear in mind that our two countries are extremely unalike in this case.


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## JPINFV (May 27, 2008)

Stillen GLE said:


> has anyone ever heard of the saying "don't judge a book by its cover" that explains it right there. and to the person that said they joined the Fire Department at 17 what makes a EMT any different nothing except they dont run into burning buildings. so why put down somebody for something they want to do. And if i stand correctly Most EMT squads are Volunteer. they dont get paid. and its not mandatory to answer every call. once again i cant believe i came in here and got a bunch of :censored::censored::censored::censored: for no reason. we all gotta start somewhere.



1. Actually, a more appropriate modification to the book cliche would be "Don't judge a book by it's genre." Of course the difference is that people do judge by genres. 

2. If you ask for people's opinions, expect to get people's opinions. Not everyone is going to agree with you over every thing. It's not bashing or putting you down, it's a disagreement. Yes, some people are more passionate and out spoken, but that doesn't change it to bashing. What's going to happen the first time a paramedic, RN, RT, or physician corrects you on a treatment or assessment? Are they bashing you now?

3. Yes, we all gotta start someplace. It's interesting, though, that other health care fields allows people to start at the primary level. RNs don't have to be CNAs or LVNs. Physicians don't have to be PAs.


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## John E (May 27, 2008)

It's not about being disrespectful towards teens, it's about teens being more respectful about their choice of careers and understanding that one of the realities of life is this, teenagers are immature. I wrote earlier in this thread that teenagers have a place in EMS, as observers, not as practitioners. 

Teenagers seem to think that their wanting to be something gives them the same status as people who already are something. Respect is earned, not simply given because you think you have the right to demand it.

There are also a bunch of legal practicalities which rightly limit the ability for a teenager to work in EMS. Simply put, anyone who can't legally sign a contract or whose parent's are legally liable for their actions, has no place in a working EMS position. And those two things alone account for the overwhelming majority of teenagers.

John E.


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## Kate (May 27, 2008)

Agree with minimum age of 16--sounds about right, including for Israel.

My point of view, again, is from Israel.  And I'm making generalities. 

Maturity: Americans enter life with little experience of being present to witness death or serious accident.  Having a grandparent die (usually in a hospital or nursing home) or pet are not an adequate induction into a life of mature responsibilities.

Israel teens enter the emergency response system as mature teens.  They grow up knowing they will soon take their place on the front lines of checkpoints and in incursions into Palestinian-held areas to try to find and destroy rocket launchers. 

Israelis are brash and obnoxious, imo, but I've concluded that this not-nice behavior is somehow linked to their ability and readiness to deal appropriately with the worst of situations.

For the first two years that I lived here (2006-07) armed military personnel were on every city bus.  So far, every person I know is no further than 2 degrees of separation from a terrorist victim.  

These kids mature real fast.


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## BossyCow (May 27, 2008)

Stillen GLE said:


> I dont get why people have such disrespect against young teens like myself. I dont get it. i come in here for advice and everyone says not to do it. if that was the case no one would be doing it. or in other words people judging others by what they say? that doesnt make any sense. how could you justify someones ability's by what they say. has anyone ever heard of the saying "don't judge a book by its cover" that explains it right there. and to the person that said they joined the Fire Department at 17 what makes a EMT any different nothing except they dont run into burning buildings. so why put down somebody for something they want to do. And if i stand correctly Most EMT squads are Volunteer. they dont get paid. and its not mandatory to answer every call. once again i cant believe i came in here and got a bunch of :censored::censored::censored::censored: for no reason. we all gotta start somewhere.




First of all, your emotional response to what is actually people with experience trying to give you solid advice is precisely what is the issue with younger EMTs. No one is saying they don't respect you, and no one is saying that you don't possess more maturity than the average citizen of your age. But, there are maturity factors that are not present in teens of our culture. 

I also take issue with the person from Israel, even though it may be culturally acceptable to treat teens as adults in your country, physiologically there are vast changes going on in the frontal lobe at that time, governing impulse control, judgement and thought organization. Waiting until that settles out is just as valid as waiting until the feet hit the pedals before handing out a driver's license. 

I have a tremendous amount of respect for teens your age. I've raised 5 of them! But, respect doesn't mean that you are oblivious to the areas where they aren't adult yet. We need to encourage your age group to do as much as they are able, and even to stretch those limits. But understand, there are limits. 

We have a junior program in our system. We have younger kids who sit in on classes, participate in drills. They are not allowed by our insurance agency to enter burning buildings, attend MVAs, drive rigs or be present on medical calls. As much for their physical protection as their emotional protection. 

As you mature, you will understand what we meant by maturity and hopefully recognize what parts of it you were missing. As I stated before, I've known some incredibly mature teens, and not one of them ever talked about how mature they were.


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## Kate (May 27, 2008)

Re triemal04 post:  "have you always lived in Israel, and if not, for how long, and where did you move from?" Lived in Seattle since 1959 (I'm 57), in Israel for 2 1/2 years.


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## LucidResq (May 27, 2008)

I'd like to throw a rock into this discussion. 

Check out my search and rescue team. 

Over 50 years of youth-led search and rescue. And when I say youth-led, I mean it. Our team is entirely staffed by high school students. Adult former members take care of training, administration, legalities, and finances, but in the field it's all youth-run. 

It's definitely worked out well. We have a great track record and reputation with other teams in the state. From what I've seen, we've had generally the same type and number of disciplinary incidents as any other emergency services agency. 

No member deaths or serious injuries in over 50 years, which is an excellent record considering over 2,000 young people have been on the team and we do technical rescue, mountain SAR, and drive emergency vehicles.. Although our members see more tragedy than the average teenager, we all turn out alright. We're not these overly fragile beings, and I think more harm is done when adults are overprotective and shelter their children from hardship and tragedy. I think we are much more humble, appreciative, grateful responsible, and thoughtful than others our age. I can say with confidence that we are much more prepared to deal with the real world than others our age. I don't feel like any of us have crazy long-standing emotional/psychological damage. 

Yes, I will never forget the one unsuccessful search I've been on. I'll never forget the man we searched for, who died, and I'll never stop wondering if I could've done more. Yes, that incident, and a handful of others, have made me cry or have stayed on my mind for a long time. I think that's okay though. I very strongly believe that I am a much better and wiser person thanks to these experiences. I don't feel like I've been emotionally traumatized or anything. 

As far as the community, I don't believe they're being deprived of anything they would have with an adult SAR team. Yes, with age comes wisdom, but youth has its perks too. We are well-trained and those who do not have the inherent maturity and mental capability to serve on the team do not last long.

I realize that SAR is not the same as straight EMS, and to be honest I'm not really comfortable with the idea of anyone under the age of 17-18 working in straight EMS. Although we do occasionally provide emergency medical care, we are essentially working in the pre-prehospital setting, so it works well.


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## Kate (May 27, 2008)

*Listen to the Pro's*

accidental duplicate; requested deletion


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## Kate (May 27, 2008)

*Listen to the Pro's*



Stillen GLE said:


> I dont get why people have such disrespect against young teens like myself. I dont get it. i come in here for advice and everyone says not to do it. if that was the case no one would be doing it. or in other words people judging others by what they say? that doesnt make any sense. how could you justify someones ability's by what they say. has anyone ever heard of the saying "don't judge a book by its cover" that explains it right there. and to the person that said they joined the Fire Department at 17 what makes a EMT any different nothing except they dont run into burning buildings. so why put down somebody for something they want to do. And if i stand correctly Most EMT squads are Volunteer. they dont get paid. and its not mandatory to answer every call. once again i cant believe i came in here and got a bunch of :censored::censored::censored::censored: for no reason. we all gotta start somewhere.


 
To the teens chomping at the bit to jump into EMR and be heroes: first go "Karate Kid" (“wax on, wax off”) and master the basic-basics. Keep in mind that the only person you can change is yourself. Study more than required and do exactly what you are asked to do without a word of complaint. Be the person willing to do the dirtiest clean up, wash the tires, put clean sheets on stretchers or whatever no one wants to do. Think outside the box for more learning: ex, attend every conference related to emergency medicine and check with the King County Examiner's Office (at Harborview) or Harborview’s own morgue to see if you can get permission to attend autopsies--an excellent way to get more anatomy education. Word will get around among the professionals that you are a team member-in-the-making, and that you are worth their valuable time to train you and give you more responsibility. 

My own example and not-so-brief-background: At age 39 I began volunteering at the HarborviewMedicalCenter trauma center (Level 1) with the goal of gaining exposure to medicine, finishing my degree, and applying for medical school. Young kids and lack of money pre-empted medical school, but I stayed with Harborview for almost 17 years. After ~300 hours of volunteering in the ER and mastering bandage rolling and crutch assembly, I began working my way up through the system, clerking on medicine and surgery floors. I spent unpaid hours making my ward the most organized--and so I was asked to train new clerks and consult on "organization-challenged" wards. I went in hours early to read medical texts in the doc's work room. I attended post-mortems and noon conferences for medical students and interns (hiding in the back of the room to avoid being called on--usually worked), etc. After 7 years advanced to position as admin assistant to the medical director of the new infectious diseases specialty clinic--we created it—and a coveted position of patient care coordinator. Then asked to be managing editor of an HIV Update for medical care providers, and managing editor and staff writer for an Infectious Disease newsletter for prison medical care providers. Was permitted to start my own cme noon conference (Infectious Disease Lunch & Learn) for docs et al. Took courses in human behavior, self-study of marketing research; ideas from this led to being asked to become paid speaker on HIV antiretroviral medical adherence in clinics and at dinner meetings in WA, OR, CA, & TX. Last project included travel to FL prison, and became advocate for inmate peer HIV/HCV health education in WA & MT correctional facilities. I loved this work and it was possible because I was committed to doing the not-cool stuff in the beginning.

If you make the lives of the professionals easier and study like crazy, then you *will* be asked to do more interesting things and made to feel you are a valued part of the team. 


Write me privately if you want to talk over specific issues.


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## Kate (May 27, 2008)

"I also take issue with the person from Israel, even though it may be culturally acceptable to treat teens as adults in your country, physiologically there are vast changes going on in the frontal lobe at that time, governing impulse control, judgement and thought organization. Waiting until that settles out is just as valid as waiting until the feet hit the pedals before handing out a driver's license."

To clarify: Israelis mature and *become* adults at a younger age and out of necessity.  It is a reality.  

As for the frontal lobe development, the brain maps neurological pathways based on experience. If we wait until an infant should be able to handle walking without falling, if we wait to speak to them until they should be talking, then the window of walk & talk brain development will not map properly. It's a model for human growth throughout our lives. (I'm a psych major--doesn't make me an expert, I realize).  Brain research shows that there are significant changes going on in the brain throughout our lives.  Testosterone levels also have a lot to do with behavior, regardless of age.  Frontal lobe development, neurological pathways, and testosterone levels are only a few of the pieces of the puzzle of human development.


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## Ridryder911 (May 27, 2008)

Stillen GLE said:


> I dont get why people have such disrespect against young teens like myself. I dont get it. i come in here for advice and everyone says not to do it. if that was the case no one would be doing it. or in other words people judging others by what they say? that doesnt make any sense. how could you justify someones ability's by what they say. has anyone ever heard of the saying "don't judge a book by its cover" that explains it right there. and to the person that said they joined the Fire Department at 17 what makes a EMT any different nothing except they dont run into burning buildings. so why put down somebody for something they want to do. And if i stand correctly Most EMT squads are Volunteer. they dont get paid. and its not mandatory to answer every call. once again i cant believe i came in here and got a bunch of :censored::censored::censored::censored: for no reason. we all gotta start somewhere.



The reason you can not understand is because of maturity level. Even though we allow 18 year olds to fight in a war, we still do not allow them to become Police officers until they are at least of the age of 21. Is this fair as well? Why do allow them to carry a gun in warfare, but in civillian duties? The reason, is maturity and as a soldier they are governed and supervised by officers. 

I am not judging a book by its cover, rather I am judging by scientific facts, period. Prove to me otherwise.... you can't. The brain physiologically is NOT full developed for critical thinking skills until nearly the age of 25. This again is a proven and well documented *facts*. There is child laws for a reason, as well why insurance corporations that prohibit children to work in dangerous environments. Do you not think it would be much cheaper and easier to use children? Sorry, until you truly have experience in providing and managing EMS services, your opinion is meaningless. 

As well, where did you ever assume that most EMT squads are volunteers? Sorry, my state has very few EMS volunteers..as well most require the minimum age of 21. Again, there is valid reason. 

Where to start.. go to college, get your education, get clinical exposures with detailed objectives, education prior to exposure, monitored by a licensed person, and old enough to be responsible for your own actions (litigation and life experience). Just alike any other health care profession, EMS should not and will not be an exception. Can you or your family afford a 1/2 million dollar litigation law suit? Like to see your family loose their house, because you wanted to do something "neat & fun"? Again, a mature and rationale person would consider this very seriously. 

Again, I ask the question: "What is the hurry?".. 


In regards to Israel , ever watch their treatment and methods? ... 

R/r 911


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## Kate (May 28, 2008)

triemal04 said:
			
		

> "...US and Israel. The reality between the two is very different also, though not that much different from the perception. (Hollywood actually has gotten something mostly right for a change)”


Would you expand on the Hollywood allusion? Movie/s? I’d be interested to know.



Ridryder911 said:


> In regards to Israel , ever watch their treatment and methods? ... R/r 911


 
I haven’t seen their ER crews in action; what sort of tx/methods? Am curious to know, especially since it sounded as though you experienced something you disagreed with. 

In Jerusalem, the sole piece of their emergency (or urgency) equipment I’ve seen in action first hand (3 times) is the tiny tank-looking vehicle used to deal with a suspicious packages. At least a block around the package is cordoned off. The tank-let w/cameras trundles out of its van and is remotely guided to the package so that an examination can be made without risk to to human life. Block-long cables are strung ahead of time to hoist and shake the package contents loose. The response is rapid and organized, with police, military, emergency medical, and bomb technicians all standing by. And tourists look on and record the event for home movies. For the past couple years it’s been someone’s forgotten backpack at a bus stop, thank God. 

Thanks


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## BossyCow (May 28, 2008)

Lucid, as a SAR officer, Wilderness First Aid/EMT instructor, and long term EMS instructor, let me first commend you for your dedication and your committment to professionalism. 

However, SAR is very different from general EMS. One of the big differences is the physical component. Research shows that the best solution to stressful incidents is physical activity. Stress creates physiological changes in the body which are only dissipated by physical activity. SAR by its very nature has a built in coping mechanism for the stress of a call. The intense physical activity related to packing someone out of the wilderness mitigates much of the adrenalin rush. 

Also, how many calls do you go on compared to an urban EMS system? How many times do you run back to back calls, or repeatedly get up in the middle of the night. SAR has a golden day, not a golden hour and is a very different ballgame. The activity is a lot more deliberate and less intense. 

I don't mean to in any way belittle the value of what you do. I am intensely aware of what is involved in SAR as I have been in it for many years. But, your experience in SAR is not a valid criteria for judging the affect of EMS on youth.


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## CFRBryan347768 (May 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted by Stillen GLE
> I dont get why people have such disrespect against young teens like myself. I dont get it. i come in here for advice and everyone says not to do it. if that was the case no one would be doing it. or in other words people judging others by what they say? that doesnt make any sense. how could you justify someones ability's by what they say. has anyone ever heard of the saying "don't judge a book by its cover" that explains it right there. and to the person that said they joined the Fire Department at 17 what makes a EMT any different nothing except they dont run into burning buildings. so why put down somebody for something they want to do. And if i stand correctly Most EMT squads are Volunteer. they dont get paid. and its not mandatory to answer every call. once again i cant believe i came in here and got a bunch of  for no reason. we all gotta start somewhere.



From a my perspective(17) and what I have learned on this thread alone, is that EMS is not taken entirely seriously, which is why everyone is saying 18 is too young go to school get a better education and better experience so you can perform your EMS skills better. I've also realized that you might be able to perform what you learned in the class room very well but what happens when the pt. craps out and you have to use life experiences to help, their not saying not to not start some where but go to school and gain personal/emotional/and a bigger horizon of how the body works experience to help you be a better health care provider. Your not necessarily being put down, think of it like this, say you have a professional baseball team would you want a rookie jumping right in and trying to play? No, let them work their way up the ladder putting more time in playing baseball which would be like going to school to improve your healthcare knowledge. I my self do ride on an ambulance and yes this thread did anger me, but you have to look at it for the better of the EMS community not as you being put down. keep riding but go to school to improve your care. P.S. Just to back my words up by saying the whole go to school bit, im getting all of my pre req. for Nursing, and than going to work as a Paramedic(in that order just because of the timing.) Good luck to you and keep your head up


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## LucidResq (May 28, 2008)

BossyCow said:


> Lucid, as a SAR officer, Wilderness First Aid/EMT instructor, and long term EMS instructor, let me first commend you for your dedication and your committment to professionalism.
> 
> However, SAR is very different from general EMS. One of the big differences is the physical component. Research shows that the best solution to stressful incidents is physical activity. Stress creates physiological changes in the body which are only dissipated by physical activity. SAR by its very nature has a built in coping mechanism for the stress of a call. The intense physical activity related to packing someone out of the wilderness mitigates much of the adrenalin rush.
> 
> ...



First of all, thank you very much. 

Yes, I realize that general EMS is very different from SAR, you may have missed my last paragraph:




> I realize that SAR is not the same as straight EMS, and to be honest I'm not really comfortable with the idea of anyone under the age of 17-18 working in straight EMS. Although we do occasionally provide emergency medical care, we are essentially working in the pre-prehospital setting, so it works well.



It's a totally different ball game. Although we do drive marked emergency vehicles, we very rarely run code to scenes and we NEVER transport anyone to the hospital. We always take patients to an LZ or an ambulance, usually by foot. I don't like the idea of teenagers taking patients to the hospital or acting as their primary EMS providers. However, I'm very comfortable with well-trained teenagers acting in SAR functions. Although people in SAR tend to be in excellent shape regardless of age, our youth is definitely an advantage because, as I'm sure you know, 75% of SAR is ground-pounding manual labor. 

You also make a very good point about the physical activity. I've never really thought of it that way, but it's true. 

But to make myself clear, I do not support the idea of youth working in straight EMS, driving ambulances and such. It is indeed a whole different ball game. I don't necessarily agree that the stress will be hugely detrimental to teenagers, but I just don't think that most younger people have the maturity to handle that type of work and responsibility.

Being on-call for SAR 24/7/365, I will work an average of less than one call a week. In a year of SAR, I have yet to provide medical care to a victim. However because we train continuously, have very high standards for CE and I have patient contact outside of SAR, I do feel confident that if necessary I would be able to provide a high standard of care for a victim until they could be handed off to a higher level of care.


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