# Working EMT wearing Paramedic patch



## jedirye

So I'm working a double today. I took a shower at my station and put on my fresh new Paramedic shirt (with patch) as I headed onto shift. Keep in mind I'm am EMT right now and don't start training until a week or two. The station I am working at is where we get our uniforms. I figured since I'm here I'll have all of my EMT shirts switched over. You see, I live a good 50 miles away and heading to do this on my own time is not cost effective or practical. Little did I know... Within two hours of my shift I had e-mails and Officer's on my case about how I can't do that. Honestly, I had no idea how big of a deal it was. I am a State of Florida licensed Paramedic waiting to get into the training program. I am being told that I cannot wear my uniforms until I am in training. I'll admit, it was a little insulting especially since the BLS engine crews around here (fire and EMS are seperate) have Paramedics on their units and still wear their patches... Is this a state law or what? Surely it can't be the former given the info about the engine crew... Enlightment would be great before I type an email to my medical director and have my foot up my mouth.

Oh yeah, the kicker? The only time I wore this shirt without my jacket was for about 40 minutes while making eggs in station (and no, my partner didn't tell, but I know who did........)

-rye


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## Firemedic515

Wow, I don't really see what the big deal is.  However, if your officer says you can't wear it, then don't.


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## TomB

jedirye said:


> So I'm working a double today. I took a shower at my station and put on my fresh new Paramedic shirt (with patch) as I headed onto shift. Keep in mind I'm am EMT right now and don't start training until a week or two. The station I am working at is where we get our uniforms. I figured since I'm here I'll have all of my EMT shirts switched over. You see, I live a good 50 miles away and heading to do this on my own time is not cost effective or practical. Little did I know... Within two hours of my shift I had e-mails and Officer's on my case about how I can't do that. Honestly, I had no idea how big of a deal it was. I am a State of Florida licensed Paramedic waiting to get into the training program. I am being told that I cannot wear my uniforms until I am in training. I'll admit, it was a little insulting especially since the BLS engine crews around here (fire and EMS are seperate) have Paramedics on their units and still wear their patches... Is this a state law or what? Surely it can't be the former given the info about the engine crew... Enlightment would be great before I type an email to my medical director and have my foot up my mouth.
> 
> Oh yeah, the kicker? The only time I wore this shirt without my jacket was for about 40 minutes while making eggs in station (and no, my partner didn't tell, but I know who did........)
> 
> -rye



I don't get it. In this post you claim to be both an EMT and a paramedic. Which are you? If you're an EMT, then it's foolish to wear a paramedic patch. I can't imagine why you'd think your employer would be okay with it. If I was your chief I'd be concerned about your judgment.


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## traumateam1

2 weeks isn't that long, I know you are excited to get that paramedic patch on your shirts, but if you aren't allowed because of either company policy or state law, then just take it off.. slap the old BLS patch back on and hang tough for a few more shifts.


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## Code 3

> Enlightment would be great before I type an email to my medical director and have my foot up my mouth.



Think about the liability for a second. Here you are acting as a BLS provider, yet you're wearing an ALS provider patch.


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## Firemedic515

He is a State of Florida licensed Paramedic!  I don't see how it could be a liability to wear a patch on his sleeve.


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## Code 3

Firemedic515 said:


> He is a State of Florida licensed Paramedic!  I don't see how it could be a liability to wear a patch on his sleeve.



He hasn't gone through training yet and is operating as an EMT-B. He doesn't have access to a drug box and cannot use any ALS interventions. His scope of practice right now is strictly BLS.


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## TomB

Code 3 said:


> He hasn't gone through training yet and is operating as an EMT-B. He doesn't have access to a drug box and cannot use any ALS interventions. His scope of practice right now is strictly BLS.



I don't think the ambiguity is helping here. He hasn't gone through what training?


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## Firemedic515

Code 3 said:


> He hasn't gone through training yet and is operating as an EMT-B. He doesn't have access to a drug box and cannot use any ALS interventions. His scope of practice right now is strictly BLS.



That is correct.  I still see no liability.  Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes making a mountain out of a mole hill.


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## Code 3

I believe it sounds like his company has a training program where he'll work with an FTO.


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## Tincanfireman

It would be equivalent to me wearing the five bugles of a Chief officer, rather than my current rank. We have had the same training, attended the same schools, (I've actually been in the fire service longer), and riding in the white truck. Circumstances and fate being what they are, he's a Chief and I'm an Injun. You can't represent yourself to be something you aren't, and by wearing a paramedic patch before you're permitted by department policies or guidelines, I feel that's what you're doing. Wear the patch you're currently entitled to wear, and just let it go. By the by, most of the agencies I've ever worked with do not allow you to wear a patch that you are in training to attain; you wear the patch of your current skill level, or have STUDENT emblazoned on the (for example) Paramedic patch you're in school for. Best of luck in your studies and your career in EMS!!


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## jedirye

To clarify, I am _not _a medic student. I am a State Certified Paramedic.

I have inquired about other company policies and it seems it was not an issue at work places of work. This is a local policy, I suppose. 

Regardless, I didn't realize it was such a huge deal.

-rye


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## TomB

Forgive me. Apparently I'm a little slow. What is the exact reason you are not allowed to wear a paramedic patch. Please be explicit.


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## Code 3

No one is saying you're not a medic. If you are not supplied the proper ALS equipment then you're not acting/working as a medic. You are currently hired and working as an EMT-B with BLS equipment. Until you're actually in the training program, I'm going to assume you're not allowed to use ALS interventions.

We have paramedics that work on BLS rigs because they want extra shifts or they are waiting for an opening as a medic. When they are on a BLS rig, they wear an EMT patch because that is currently what their scope of practice is. It doesn't matter what license they hold, you can only use BLS interventions and therefore you're acting as an EMT-B.


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## KEVD18

its a ridiculous rule. they are just giving you(and everyone else thats ever been down this road a hard time).

the average joe doesnt have the foggiest clue what the names we have for different skill levels mean. they dont know whats different about a paramedic than an emt. they couldnt even take a stab at what seperates and i from a medic. theres no liability there.


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## Ridryder911

The point is that he NOT a Paramedic at that company as rather a Paramedic is a position as much as a medical license or certification. The medical control has the option what one can work at. 

Why they do not want him to or why they are making a big deal is because if he misrepresented himself (Paramedic insignias) and only acted as a EMT then there is a high risk of misrepresentation. 

I don't blame the service. He is NOT a Paramedic at that service, alike I have Paramedics that are nor functioning as a Paramedic, hence they will wear what level they are working at. For example; an Paramedic maybe working as a Intermediate. 

R/r 911


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## Dobo

Okay a slight off topic question but it sort of fits in with this discussion. I have always known what an EMT is and never needed explaining but it seems a lot of people are seriously out of the loop on the term. So when I am asked what I am studying though it is not to be a full paramedic I say paramedic because that seems to be all they understand, even when I told my mother what I wanted to study I had to say "it's a first step to becoming a Paramedic"

To all the true Paramedics, does this type of thing tick you off that someone may say that? It's not that I want to over inflate my abilities, it's mor for clarification purposes.


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## Ridryder911

Yes, in fact one can be fined or imprisoned for misrepresenting their license level or misrepresenting themselves (i.e EMT announces they are a Paramedic). 

R/r 911


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## Dobo

Okay, my intention is not to misrepresent myself, I don't do it to say my credentials, I simple say paramedic to some people because they don't know what an EMR Emergency Medical Responder (equivilent yo EMT-B) means. So I find my self saying a lot it is the first step to becoming a paramedic. And to add confusion to the question, in Alberta an EMT is a Paramedic in Ontario, Primary Care Paramedic. And my goal it to next year get my EMT in Alberta

I will definitely be more careful at explaining my credentials though, I don't want to either break a law nor do I want to lessen the reputations of true paramedics


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## FF894

Overall I think Rid said it best.  Just because you are a medic deosn't mean you still operate as a medic.  One agency I work for this happens quite frequently where the service is an I/B truck but very often the intermediates are paramedics.  They must only do skills to the intermediate level.  

At another agency, every medic must complete regular training and sim-lab time.  If the instructor/QA-QI person feels you are not up to par then you are demoted while you refresh your skills and re-test.  (This does not happen very often but has happened) While the person is working at the basic level they don't change uniforms though.  

It really comes down to the company policies.  If they want no patches for anyone and pink shirts then thats what it is.  (although to be honest I am not sure about state regs across the country - near me there is nothing from the state saying you must wear X)

Sorry this happened, sucks to be excited to get to that level and have this happen.  Don't let it discourage you- just abide by their rules and let it go in the past, its not worth fighting over.  Take the patch off for now, go through training, patch back on.  Its only a few weeks.


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## Dobo

FF894 said:


> Overall I think Rid said it best.  Just because you are a medic deosn't mean you still operate as a medic.  One agency I work for this happens quite frequently where the service is an I/B truck but very often the intermediates are paramedics.  They must only do skills to the intermediate level.
> 
> At another agency, every medic must complete regular training and sim-lab time.  If the instructor/QA-QI person feels you are not up to par then you are demoted while you refresh your skills and re-test.  (This does not happen very often but has happened) While the person is working at the basic level they don't change uniforms though.
> 
> It really comes down to the company policies.  If they want no patches for anyone and pink shirts then thats what it is.  (although to be honest I am not sure about state regs across the country - near me there is nothing from the state saying you must wear X)
> 
> Sorry this happened, sucks to be excited to get to that level and have this happen.  Don't let it discourage you- just abide by their rules and let it go in the past, its not worth fighting over.  Take the patch off for now, go through training, patch back on.  Its only a few weeks.



Well said,

I have a feeling it will feel twice as good when you get to put it back on officially


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## Zeke

jedirye said:


> The only time I wore this shirt without my jacket was for about 40 minutes while making eggs in station



So cooking eggs is an ALS Procedure?


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## daedalus

jedirye said:


> To clarify, I am _not _a medic student. I am a State Certified Paramedic.
> 
> I have inquired about other company policies and it seems it was not an issue at work places of work. This is a local policy, I suppose.
> 
> Regardless, I didn't realize it was such a huge deal.
> 
> -rye



For the life of me I cannot figure out what you are trying to say in your original post. Its a confusing read and not structured very well. Your profile says Paramedic Student, so I am further confused to the point of not even being able to ascertain what your asking or posting about. 

If you are a student paramedic, you cannot wear a paramedic patch.
If you are a paramedic working for a BLS service as an EMT, you should not even be there in the first place. If you wear paramedic insignia, you might be expected to preform paramedic level care, which you cannot.


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## FF894

Correct me if I'm wrong Jed, but it sounds like he is now a certified paramedic in the State of Florida.  He was working at his company as an EMT while going through the medic program.  Now that he is certified as a medic, that doesnt mean the next day he works at the ALS level on the first medic truck leaving the base.  He must still complete the companies training and orientation period before he can work with them as a medic.  

That makes total sense to me and should be how it is done.  Again, just becuase one now has the EMTP certification, it does not mean you can immediatly start working at that level.  Medical Director, supervisors, FTO, etc all must sign off hopefully according to some policy and procedure that outlines the process.


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## ffemt8978

Zeke said:


> So cooking eggs is an ALS Procedure?



Well, it is an invasive procedure unless you're boiling them...but that would require an advanced assessment to determine when they're really done.


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## marineman

ffemt8978 said:


> Well, it is an invasive procedure unless you're boiling them...but that would require an advanced assessment to determine when they're really done.



Protocol says we need to consult medical direction in order to scramble them.

Dobo I don't see a problem with what you're saying as long as you use your head about it. Obviously walking onto an emergency scene and saying you're a paramedic or a paramedic in training could get sticky but I don't see anyone banging down your door and throwing you in jail for explaining to your mother what you're going to school for. Like was said before if you want to be on the safe side most people know what an EMT is and what a Paramedic is they just think it's the exact same thing so just call yourself an EMT regardless of cert level and you'll be safe.


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## jedirye

Hey all,
Well the bit about the eggs actually made me laugh out loud...

But regardless, I've done a little research. My own work partner (a paramedic) stated she wore her patch two to three weeks before starting the training program and walked into our Head Quarters proudly sporting it. Many others have said the same. I think I'm not allowed to wear it because fairly recently we had a Paramedic demoted to EMT level and made a huge fuss about how he had to wear an EMT patch again, etc. They told me they are getting this written in our policy book. It's convenient it's not in their now, though, and they are telling me it's policy and yadda yadda yadda. Whatever, it kind of killed my moment I guess.

_*"For the life of me I cannot figure out what you are trying to say in your original post. Its a confusing read and not structured very well. Your profile says Paramedic Student, so I am further confused to the point of not even being able to ascertain what your asking or posting about. "*_

Yeah, dude, and my avatar is toast but I assure you I'm a real person.....

-rye


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## reaper

You still have me confused! If you have your FL medic license, what training program are you going into? Do you mean an orientation period with the company? If so, were you hired as a medic or EMT?


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## tydek07

Where I currently work, management doesn't say much about it. Talked to one person and he said that you have the right to wear your NR patch as you are certified with them. So... you always see EMT's who passed the NR test and put their patches on the same day they get their nr card. I agree with others, it can/does cause problems because when people look at you (for your training level) they tend to look at the patch instead of the ID badge. 

Am I for or against putting your paramedic patch on, even though you haven't completed the process to work as a medic?  Honestly, I do not care... Its really not that big of deal.

Take Care,


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## tydek07

tydek07 said:


> Where I currently work, management doesn't say much about it. Talked to one person and he said that you have the right to wear your NR patch as you are certified with them. So... you always see EMT's who passed the NR test and put their patches on the same day they get their nr card. I agree with others, it can/does cause problems because when people look at you (for your training level) they tend to look at the patch instead of the ID badge.
> 
> Am I for or against putting your paramedic patch on, even though you haven't completed the process to work as a medic?  Honestly, I do not care... Its really not that big of deal.
> 
> Take Care,




I was talking about National Registry Paramedic patches when I wrote that... I know of some services that make their own paramedic patches and do not use the NR ones, now that would be a different story.


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## VentMedic

reaper said:


> You still have me confused! If you have your FL medic license, what training program are you going into? Do you mean an orientation period with the company? If so, were you hired as a medic or EMT?


 
I agree. When asked why he lists his training as Paramedic student below his avatar he just talked about toast. 

Even if he is a licensed Paramedic, it is his company's uniform and their job description. It is not that uncommon for a company to tell someone they will be working as an EMT until they are either cleared or have been demoted. If the company says you will be an EMT with the company until they say your job description is Paramedic, then that is what you are. 

We also have had drivers for our specialty teams who are Paramedics. We have been lenient in allowing them to wear their patch even though they do not function as a Paramedic and have very little patient contact. The shirts they are given just have the hospital logo patch. The drivers put the Paramedic patch on the hospital's shirt themselves. Occasionally someone in administration will say it is a misrepresentation of who is actually on the team. 

Many of us who have different medical licenses may only use the patch for the job we are working at that time. MSDeltaFlight explained that clearly in another thread.


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## bstone

TomB said:


> I don't get it. In this post you claim to be both an EMT and a paramedic. Which are you? If you're an EMT, then it's foolish to wear a paramedic patch. I can't imagine why you'd think your employer would be okay with it. If I was your chief I'd be concerned about your judgment.



You're being quite harsh. He is a FL medic and waiting to get into a transition program for his new state to transfer his card over. Sheesh!


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## reaper

bstone said:


> You're being quite harsh. He is a FL medic and waiting to get into a transition program for his new state to transfer his card over. Sheesh!



But, it says no where in his post that he is in a different state! That is what we are trying to figure out here?


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## VentMedic

bstone said:


> You're being quite harsh. He is a FL medic and waiting to get into a transition program for his new state to transfer his card over. Sheesh!


 

If he did not meet the qualifications of EMT-B for that state to wear that patch, he may be wearing a training patch.  It is doubtful a company would even consider putting a person in a patient care role if they could not function under one of the licenses and fulfill the job description.   They would be working under the direct supervision of a FTO until they are cleared to function at their job title.


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## FF894

FF894 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong Jed, but it sounds like he is now a certified paramedic in the State of Florida.  He was working at his company as an EMT while going through the medic program.  Now that he is certified as a medic, that doesnt mean the next day he works at the ALS level on the first medic truck leaving the base.  He must still complete the companies training and orientation period before he can work with them as a medic.
> 
> That makes total sense to me and should be how it is done.  Again, just becuase one now has the EMTP certification, it does not mean you can immediatly start working at that level.  Medical Director, supervisors, FTO, etc all must sign off hopefully according to some policy and procedure that outlines the process.



Do you guys not have some sort of similar way of operating?


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## JPINFV

Why does it even matter? You are employed by a company and will meet their uniform standards. The standard for the level that you are employed at requires that you wear an EMT patch and not a paramedic patch. It's no different than the company saying that you have to wear black boots and not tennis shoes. Uniforms should not be up to what the individual wants to put on it, but what the employer wants to put on it. Until your job description is changed from EMT to paramedic you are an EMT in the eyes of the company.


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## FF894

Right, just as I said in a previous post.  However, not all companies/agencies have such policies.  Not saying thats the case here because from the sounds of it he works for a private company and it would be hard to believe they didn't.  It is not unheard of for an EMT-P, patch and a all, to be working as an EMT-B or EMT-I.  They must simply work within the limits of position they are working.  

I understand what you are saying about policies and procedures and wear the proper uniform for the position you are working, but the thing is thats not exclusive.  Not all companies/agencies have those rules and regulations.  It may be the case that if one is certified to the paramedic level but working as an B or I today then he still has a paramedic patch on his shoulder.  

Also, I can think of a few companies that don't even have cert level patches on uniforms, just company patch and flag.


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## TomB

bstone said:


> You're being quite harsh. He is a FL medic and waiting to get into a transition program for his new state to transfer his card over. Sheesh!



Any misunderstandings in this thread are entirely due to the vague and careless explanation provided by the original poster, which automatically makes me think he's to blame for his current situation (whatever the hell it is).

Tom


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## Emtgirl21

I dont see how you can be licensed and not trained thats backwards. I would think you would need to have completed your training to be licensed and to wear a patch. Honestly if you don't know how to be a paramedic you shouldnt have the patch on.


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## JPINFV

Emtgirl21 said:


> I dont see how you can be licensed and not trained thats backwards. I would think you would need to have completed your training to be licensed and to wear a patch. Honestly if you don't know how to be a paramedic you shouldnt have the patch on.



There's a difference between being trained/educated to the paramedic level and receiving the company specific field training that prepares a provider to work in that specific system. Any system that throws new employees (new to the system or new to the provider level) out into the world without field training that is specific to that system AND level is dangerous. This is different than internships and clinicals that one receives in class.


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## KEVD18

3 days, 5 hours and 30 minutes. thats how long this insane ridiculous debate has gone on.


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## firecoins

Yes. The first post is quite confusing.  I had trouble understanding whether he was an EMT-B, medic student or a new hire wearing a medic patch.   
.


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## paramedicbob

.............................................................................ummm okay...


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## BLSBoy

Medics here in Jersey work BLS alot, when OT is not available. We are usually compensated at a higher EMT rate, or even a "special" MICP working EMT pay grade. 
Some wear EMT patches, most wear the NJ MICP patch. 
Why?
Because there are only 3231 (last I heard) NJ MICPs out there. Its somewhat of a pride thing.


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## maxwell

Welcome to EMS.  Nonsense.  Complete nonsense.  Patch-on!


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## medic417

maxwell said:


> Welcome to EMS.  Nonsense.  Complete nonsense.  Patch-on!




Patch off.  If not a Paramedic per his service he has no right to wear the Patch.


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## BLSBoy

Medics here pick up BLS shifts all the time. We wear OUR uniform. With MICP patches, and PARAMEDIC name tape. 

You ARE a medic.


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## medic417

BLSBoy said:


> Medics here pick up BLS shifts all the time. We wear OUR uniform. With MICP patches, and PARAMEDIC name tape.
> 
> You ARE a medic.



If they are allowed to use the Paramedic protocol I see no problem.  This guy does not have that ability per his statements.


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## BLSBoy

medic417 said:


> If they are allowed to use the Paramedic protocol I see no problem.  This guy does not have that ability per his statements.



All we can do is BLS. Transport, or pre hospital. 

If we had a 911 job, and linked up with the MICU, we could act as a medic.


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## medic417

BLSBoy said:


> All we can do is BLS. Transport, or pre hospital.
> 
> If we had a 911 job, and linked up with the MICU, we could act as a medic.



Therefore the need for the Paramedic patch.  The OP could not do anything but BLS.  Plus if as someone said he had moved to another state until that state says you are a Paramedic you aren't one there.


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## jedirye

Dang, I return and there is a plethora or posts!

In summation when I originally posted: I received my state of FL Paramedic license. My company received a copy. I was going to start the training program (patch and all) in two weeks (from original post date). It was rumored that the uniform store was slow on putting on patches, I figured I'd do it a little bit ahead. My current work partner and many others I talked to stated that they wore their Paramedic shirts prior to the training program, whether it was two weeks or a *month*!


It was actually a complicated issue because they said I would start the training program Jan. 4th and in the end there was a _lot _of shady business and that never happened, and no body ever told me either until that day came and passed and I was still in the EMT position...

Regardless, in retrospect I can see how it is not appropriate to wear the Paramedic patch until official training day, whether liability, etc. I think my situation was a bit different and it seems that this local policy was isolated to just me. My new start date is Feb. 15th (unless they change their minds and don't tell me again). We'll see... I apologize for any confusion in the original post. Yes, I'm sure it still says "Paramedic Student" under my avatar even though I am a paramedic. I also mentioned how my avatar is toast, but I assure everyone I am human and have arms/fingers to post this reply... Take it for what it is worth.

-rye


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## BLSBoy

I lied. There have been 3247 NJ Paramedics. 

I should know, I am #3247!^_^


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## Sasha

> I also mentioned how my avatar is toast, but I assure everyone I am human and have arms/fingers to post this reply... Take it for what it is worth.



Gasp! How shocking! How dissapointing! I thought you were a piece of tasty bread!


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## BLSBoy

Sasha said:


> Gasp! How shocking! How dissapointing! I thought you were a piece of tasty bread!



Does that mean you wanted to eat him up?


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## Sasha

BLSBoy said:


> Does that mean you wanted to eat him up?



Hehe! You're so cute!


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## BLSBoy

Sasha said:


> Hehe! You're so cute!



^_^

Some things just come to me.


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## Doug

Simply put, I knew a housecleaner in the hospital I work at that was a Nurse in, forgive me I can't remeber which central american country, before she came here.  She was in the process of being recognized as such here, but while she was a nurse on paper she was a housecleaner in job.  It would be wrong of her to walk into a room and say "Hi there I'm a nurse and will be cleaning your toilet."  
  Side note: she completed all the qualifications and is now an ICU shift supervisor, and has been doing an excellent job for the past 5 years.  And she never insisted that she be called a nurse while she operated a mop.


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## jedirye

Doug, I see some analogy between the two situations. _Some._


-rye


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## VentMedic

jedirye said:


> Doug, I see some analogy between the two situations. _Some._
> 
> 
> -rye


 
A few of us on this forum hold multiple licenses. When working at one job, we may use only our title and licensure for that job to avoid confusion. 

I do not put EMT-P anywhere in my signature at the hospital nor do I put RRT when working as a Paramedic. I have two very different scopes of practice for each license and prefer to avoid any misrepresentation or expectation to function at a higher or lower level when I am working for different medical directors.


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## Hockey

Wearing a patch for different things? Huh?

I don't get it...



Oh well


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## Sasha

Hockey9019 said:


> Wearing a patch for different things? Huh?
> 
> I don't get it...
> 
> 
> 
> Oh well



What don't you get? That EMT and Paramedic are two completely different scopes of practice, and have two completely different patches to signify what level you are able to treat a patient at?


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## Hockey

Sasha said:


> What don't you get? That EMT and Paramedic are two completely different scopes of practice, and have two completely different patches to signify what level you are able to treat a patient at?



Um yeah I know that EMT and Paramedic are two different SOP.  I guess I just am used to seeing everyone in the same uniform, and only difference is in your MedControl ID or ID/Badge

Oh well


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## Sasha

Hockey9019 said:


> Um yeah I know that EMT and Paramedic are two different SOP.  I guess I just am used to seeing everyone in the same uniform, and only difference is in your MedControl ID or ID/Badge
> 
> Oh well



Shouldn't they have different shoulder patches?


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## rescuepoppy

Sasha said:


> What don't you get? That EMT and Paramedic are two completely different scopes of practice, and have two completely different patches to signify what level you are able to treat a patient at?



   With that being said two problems I see from wearing patches that you are not yet authorized to wear are. First is the fact that you or your service could have problems if a bystander makes a complaint that they saw a person wearing a EMT-P patch at a scene and all they were doing was to administer O-2 or other basic care if the case were to be brought into court for some reason. The second would be if you were on the scene of a multiple patient scene and the scene command mistook a basic for an advanced care giver and did not think they needed to call for more help. That being said while in uniform we wear patches and I.D. tags so others can know who we are and what certification we are. To misrepresent your self could come back to haunt us. Even if we are waiting on final approval of certification the highest scope of practise we can operate under is the highest certification we actually hold.


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## BLSBoy

OK, I've had it. 

My turn to blow a gasket. 

DO WHAT YOU ARE TOLD TO DO!!

I wear my Medic uniform, complete with patches, when I work BLS. 

Medics here also wear BLS uniforms with MICP patches. 

You do what your uniform policy says to do. 

Jeesh!:glare::glare:


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## Sasha

BLSBoy said:


> OK, I've had it.
> 
> My turn to blow a gasket.
> 
> DO WHAT YOU ARE TOLD TO DO!!
> 
> I wear my Medic uniform, complete with patches, when I work BLS.
> 
> Medics here also wear BLS uniforms with MICP patches.
> 
> You do what your uniform policy says to do.
> 
> Jeesh!:glare::glare:



:] You need an olam. Calm down, it's okay!


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## Hockey

Sasha said:


> Shouldn't they have different shoulder patches?



Nope.  We used to have different patches but we all have the same patches, same shirts, pants etc.  


Where I work, and when we show up, people don't care if we are basics or medics.  Hell, half the time, they don't even know the difference.  If we need ALS and we're not an ALS rig, we have ALS <5 mins away

I would like to add we don't have anyone trying to act as a medic thats not.  My MedControl ID states my name, picture and EMT-B.  Paramedics have Paramedic or EMT-P.  Thats all the distinguishing I believe we need


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## Dustoff

WOW,  for me it would be more of a moral issue , plus when you go to court being sued as a Paramedic cause you performed EMT-B skills and your victim died ....Wait til you get your card  in your pocket!! .


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## CAOX3

Wow reading this post gave me a headache.

Thats 15 minutes of my life I will never get back.

Our medics also grab overtime on BLS trucks without issue.


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## Ridryder911

Hockey9019 said:


> Nope.  We used to have different patches but we all have the same patches, same shirts, pants etc.
> 
> 
> Where I work, and when we show up, people don't care if we are basics or medics.  Hell, half the time, they don't even know the difference.  If we need ALS and we're not an ALS rig, we have ALS <5 mins away
> 
> I would like to add we don't have anyone trying to act as a medic thats not.  My MedControl ID states my name, picture and EMT-B.  Paramedics have Paramedic or EMT-P.  Thats all the distinguishing I believe we need




. The reason you believe such is because you’re not at the highest level yet. It’s easy to say "I don't see the need" and so on; when you’re not the one being misrepresented. Personally, it should be a felony for misguiding and falsifying a legal certification or license, when one is not.

Would you have a problem with a common laymen that only has first aid training wearing an EMT patch? Same difference.

R/r 911


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## CAOX3

How is he mis representing himself, if he is a state certified paramedic?

He is a medic, the fact his company does not allow him to work as one, doesnt make him not a medic.


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## daedalus

> We also have had drivers for our specialty teams who are Paramedics. We have been lenient in allowing them to wear their patch even though they do not function as a Paramedic and have very little patient contact. The shirts they are given just have the hospital logo patch. The drivers put the Paramedic patch on the hospital's shirt themselves. Occasionally someone in administration will say it is a misrepresentation of who is actually on the team.


 -VentMedic.

How is it a misrepresentation? If they have finished a Paramedic program and passed their tests, received their state licenses (or whatever the state may call it), than they are paramedics. How can that be a misrepresentation? Or are you saying they were hired as drivers and only drivers?

I wonder why a Paramedic would take a job as an ambulance driver.


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## smvde

Jesus, all this talk about places that have only so many paramedic slots, and require paramedics to work as basics has given me a headache.

Thank God I'm here in south Georgia where we use common sense. If you are a paramedic, licensed by the state, you wear a paramedic patch. The services around here are desperate for medics, and there isn't such a thing as a BLS truck unless there isn't a paramedic available to be on it.

For those of you unfortante enough to have to work in those type services, sorry about your hard luck.


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## VentMedic

daedalus said:


> -VentMedic.
> 
> How is it a misrepresentation? If they have finished a Paramedic program and passed their tests, received their state licenses (or whatever the state may call it), than they are paramedics. How can that be a misrepresentation? Or are you saying they were hired as drivers and only drivers?
> 
> I wonder why a Paramedic would take a job as an ambulance driver.


 
There were hired as drivers only.  They have no direct patient care involvement.  There is not the word Paramedic or EMT anywhere in their title.  Sometimes we include EMT or CNA cert helpful but not required.  Often someone from the transport pool (vans, security, pt shuttle etc)drives.  We do require EVOC but we rarely if ever run L/S even for those very long transports.   But EVOC is required for any vehicle operating with an emergency license.  An EMT(P) is not required.

Reason:  There is little way for a Paramedic to see the day to day workings of an NICU as Paramedic. They still learn alot since we do show them equipment, discuss the baby and they can hang in the NICU.  So even if they do not have direct patient care, they will become familiar with the babies and their care.  That is if they are interested.  Some just like the easy job with good pay and hospital benefits.


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## daedalus

VentMedic said:


> There were hired as drivers only.  They have no direct patient care involvement.  There is not the word Paramedic or EMT anywhere in their title.  Sometimes we include EMT or CNA cert helpful but not required.  Often someone from the transport pool (vans, security, pt shuttle etc)drives.  We do require EVOC but we rarely if ever run L/S even for those very long transports.   But EVOC is required for any vehicle operating with an emergency license.  An EMT(P) is not required.
> 
> Reason:  There is little way for a Paramedic to see the day to day workings of an NICU as Paramedic. They still learn alot since we do show them equipment, discuss the baby and they can hang in the NICU.  So even if they do not have direct patient care, they will become familiar with the babies and their care.  That is if they are interested.  Some just like the easy job with good pay and hospital benefits.


I see I see. Disappointing for a paramedic to take a non-clinical job, but to each their own. I would be a little suspicious of letting security guards or van drivers run code, but than I remembered you are speaking of CCT not 911 response.


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## VentMedic

daedalus said:


> I see I see. Disappointing for a paramedic to take a non-clinical job, but to each their own. I would be a little suspicious of letting security guards or van drivers run code, but than I remembered you are speaking of CCT not 911 response.


 
The Paramedics are still in a clinical situation even if not touching patients. They are probably in one of the best learning situations inside a teaching hospital. If they can not get something out of that environment, they probably have NO interest in medicine. But, many people work BLS IFTs and still have learned nothing about taking vitals, doing an assessment or taking a history even though they have patients in front of them everyday they work. 

CCT or 911, the trucks have an emergency license and are equipped with L/S. What's the difference between an 18 y/o fresh out of an 110 hour EMT-B class and a 25 y/o (requirements to drive our vehicles along with EVOC) driving a truck? They do not have to get somewhere in 4 minutes and even if they do use L/S it is for very specific reasons and not for speed. *Specialty teams that must rely on speed are not very special. *


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## Sasha

> Disappointing for a paramedic to take a non-clinical job, but to each their own.



Actually, it sounds like a very interesting and educational job.. I think I'd kill for an opprotunity like that! 

But to each their own. It probably attracts those who aren't all about the lights and sirens, but rather the opprotunity to learn.


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## ffemt8978

Play nice or the thread will be closed....


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## fortsmithman

The service I'm with decided around the time I joined to remove EMS designations from our patch has shown in my avatar.


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## daedalus

To be clear, I posted out of curiosity not intending to start any sort of debate. I was merely wondering why a paramedic would take a non-clinical job after finishing school. Driving, is by definition, non-clinical. Thus far in school, I am itching to get out and use my knowledge to treat patients. I work a lot of critical care transport, and there are some limited learning opportunities. I take full advantage of these opportunities and have great relationship with all of my nurses, who have written me wonderful letters for school. Be that as it may, CCT still does not provide an EMT or Paramedic with an opportunity to practice their knowledge or skill. In California, the RN is in charge of CCT transfers and usually, she has a team of two EMT-B, and for the most part we are to do nothing but drive.l

Also, I was not speaking to the use of lights or sirens, but using uncertified security guards or van pool drivers to respond to the scene of an emergency, which in California, is illegal in almost all instances. There is a difference in using an EMT (however long their class is) vs a driver to the scene of an emergency. The difference is that it is against the law. However, this is not the case in Vent's situation, as she is doing transfers.

So no foul intended.

It should be noted that I am also not supporting a 110 hour education in this post. Far from it.


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## firecoins

I support at least 111 hours.


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## Ms.Medic

Firemedic515 said:


> He is a State of Florida licensed Paramedic!  I don't see how it could be a liability to wear a patch on his sleeve.



I dont know if anyone has mentioned this or not yet, but Im guessing that the liability could fall on the fact that, if you are currently "restricted" as a paramedic, have not been through the training, or not yet in paramedic status with your service, regardless of what the state says, your not yet trained on those specific protocols and guidelines to be able to practice as a paramedic for that particular service. I would think that the decision to have you wear that patch on, technically, the "services' shirt", would be dependant on your medical director saying that he now gives you the right to function as a paramedic under HIS license. Just a thought.


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## VentMedic

daedalus said:


> Also, I was not speaking to the use of lights or sirens, but using uncertified security guards or van pool drivers to respond to the scene of an emergency, which in California, is illegal in almost all instances. There is a difference in using an EMT (however long their class is) vs a driver to the scene of an emergency. The difference is that it is against the law. However, this is not the case in Vent's situation, as she is doing transfers.


 
In Florida, as in many other states, the driver of an ambulance can be anyone who meets the emergency driving requirements which does not have to include an EMT-B cert. Also, BLS trucks in these area only need 1 EMT and 1 driver. This is extremely popular for volunteer agencies where this is very common but it can 911 or IFT. So NO, it is not against the law in may states. 

I haven't checked CA's laws lately but I do get a giggle (and frown from disappointment) when their CCTs must call a second RN for a ventilator patient and both EMTs ride up front. 

CCT provides the EMT(P) with the opportunity to see inside an ICU and critical care medicine in action. Many who call themselves CCEMT-P may have never had that opportunity before getting the CCT job and are a little more than surprised when they see a real ICU patient and not one from tele that just needed a monitor and a KVO IV. Yet, many prefer to ride up front if they are not needed.


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## daedalus

VentMedic said:


> In Florida, as in many other states, the driver of an ambulance can be anyone who meets the emergency driving requirements which does not have to include an EMT-B cert. Also, BLS trucks in these area only need 1 EMT and 1 driver. This is extremely popular for volunteer agencies where this is very common but it can 911 or IFT. So NO, it is not against the law in may states.
> 
> I haven't checked CA's laws lately but I do get a giggle (and frown from disappointment) when their CCTs must call a second RN for a ventilator patient and both EMTs ride up front.
> 
> CCT provides the EMT(P) with the opportunity to see inside an ICU and critical care medicine in action. Many who call themselves CCEMT-P may have never had that opportunity before getting the CCT job and are a little more than surprised when they see a real ICU patient and not one from tele that just needed a monitor and a KVO IV. Yet, many prefer to ride up front if they are not needed.


Vent, I just looked into it. You must have an EMT card to get an ambulance Driver Certificate in California, however there is one exception. A volunteer may, if approved by his chief and the DMV on a case by case basis, obtain a volunteer only ambulance certificate. This is restricted to non-commercial volunteer organizations and the individual may only drive. There must also be an EMT on board. I think this is a poor arrangement in California because there are enough EMTs in the state to put two on a rig. So I suppose there is a similarity to Florida here. 

BTW, I had a gung ho CCT RN who was what he called in his own words "Vent Certified" and would take on CCT-RN-RRT calls by himself. Not sure if this was legal, I worked for a shady company at the time. Now, we are required to have an RRT and an RN on board for most CCT transfers, you may be happy to hear. The arrangement works well. 

I enjoy going inside the ICUs and cath labs on CCT. It does provide some learning and exposure for me, and is a nice break from SNF to ER, and ER to SNF. Its great to observe and learn, but as an EMT I simply do not have the background education to know what is going on in the treatment courses and even listening to the report. I ask and I learn, and my RNs love to teach, but at the end of the day I am a driver and an observer, which is not a bad thing in itself. This type of exposure should be required in the initial education of EMTs and paramedics. 

I value your experience and advice.


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## OzAmbo

I have 2 patches on my shirt. On the sleeves it says "Rural Ambulance Victoria" on the front it says "Paramedic"

Scemantics aside, if aske to remove the one that says "Paramedic" ill cut the things off without an problem. ALS or BLS the absence of a patch, a silly little fabric "thing" does not change my thought processing or job performance. It doesn't change my sense of belonging or pride in my work. Now cut the other one off, the ones that identify me as a part my organisation, the organisation the exists implicitly to deliver pre-hospital care and i may be offended.

I think we are placing far too much emphasis on "names" and "skills" as opposed to "job performance" and identity.


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## VentMedic

daedalus said:


> BTW, I had a gung ho CCT RN who was what he called in his own words "Vent Certified" and would take on CCT-RN-RRT calls by himself.


 
Once someone like that is "Vent certified" they can add  "Knobologist" to their list of titles.     Only one who truly lacks the education behind ventilators would make such a statement out of ignorance as to how much information and ventilator technology there is in that specialty.


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## bittner

I am not sure how the rules are in Florida, but in Texas you cannot present yourself as a Paramedic until you are finished with school and have taken your National Registry and have become Licensed in the State of Texas.  If you are caught, you will lose your patch and any chances of getting it back.


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## rescuebill

While I was a Paramedic in Maryland, I wore a Maryland Paramedic patch on 1sleeve, and my affiliation patch on the other, regardless of what level I was working at.

If I went out on the BLS ambo, I was still a Paramedic, just on a BLS truck, If I worked a suppression shift, driving the engine or ladder truck, well, I was still a Paramedic then as well.

I kinda skipped to the end, with out reading all the posts, so if this was said already, then forgive the "repost". 

Also, it sounds as if the origional post was trying to say he was a Florida Certified / Licensed Paramedic, who had completed everything except his agency specific training. We called it "ride outs" here in Texas, and Precepting back in Maryland. He is still a Paramedic, and just can not function, Unsupervised, as a paramedic


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## Firemedic515

Ms.Medic said:


> I dont know if anyone has mentioned this or not yet, but Im guessing that the liability could fall on the fact that, if you are currently "restricted" as a paramedic, have not been through the training, or not yet in paramedic status with your service, regardless of what the state says, your not yet trained on those specific protocols and guidelines to be able to practice as a paramedic for that particular service. I would think that the decision to have you wear that patch on, technically, the "services' shirt", would be dependant on your medical director saying that he now gives you the right to function as a paramedic under HIS license. Just a thought.



The local service does not issue the patch.  The patch is issued by Registry or the state.  Thus no liability.


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## RielHalfbreed

Our service issues all standard EMS patches, that way you know your scope, you operate within it, and all the lil girl games stay at school.


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## firecoins

you should only wear the patch that you are allowed to operate at. If you have become a medic but are not working as one, you shouldn't wear it.  This is because if you wear the patch, it will be assumed by other agencies unfamiliar with you that you can operate at that level independently in an emergency.  You should wait until you are employed as a medic and are cleared by whatever local medical control you have until you put that patch on. Less liabiliy and less confusion.


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## EMTSteve0

I think that until he finishes training, THEN he should be allowed to don the proper patch.  This indicates that HE has finished all training requirements to meet that specific scope of practice for the company HE is representing.


Yes I fully understand he has received his certification, but companies have set policies as well.  If a company wants you to wear the patch only in training, then there's your sign.  If you want to wear the badge before, work somewhere that will hire you as a Medic, but don't burn your bridges with your Chain of Command.....I see it all the time in the military with folks in upgrade training, having their OJT records signed meeting their core tasks, but haven't completed their practical portion and have to take off their MISREPRESENTED skill level.  Same goes for when someone makes rank...You may have been selected or have received that skill level, but until you finish what the company (in my case military) requires per regulation, guidance, or SOP, then you cannot break your dress and appearance code.....sorry to hear about your situation; just brush off the "He/She told me he was allowed to before training" worries...Just FIDO...FIX IT AND DRIVE ON!  or press on, raise the bar close the loop, shut up and color...however you wanna end the madness.....Just be professional about the manner and don't seem like a whiney newbie at the station (which of course I'm not implying you are, because it seems you haven't made TOO big of a deal about it.)


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## jedirye

Nah, took the patch off and went on with life; it did continue, after all. I just wish this policy was followed throughout the company and to all employees, but meh and whatever.

I'm in the training program now so the patch is back on... but dang, does a lot of responsibility come with this. I knew it before going in, but not a shift goes by I don't pray that I'm not in over my head and can handle whatever comes my way...

-rye


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## remote_medic

so can this thread die now?


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## Sasha

remote_medic said:


> so can this thread die now?



Until someone else comes along and decides to play the zombie game!


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## EMTCLM

if  you're a registered paramedic, then youre a paramedic. i dont really see the big deal, but if everyone is being a little uncool with the whole thing, id just switch back to the EMT patch until everything is cleared up.


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## VentMedic

EMTCLM said:


> if you're a registered paramedic, then youre a paramedic.


 
By registered, do you mean that you have passed the National Registry exam? 

The only thing that means is you have passed a test. You are not legal to represent yourself in most states as a Paramedic until you obtain a license or certification with that state. If you move to another state, regardless of what you were call in the other state, you must obtain another license in that state also to be recognized. 

If you move to Oregon as a Paramedic from a state of 500 hour medic milsl, regardless of what you were called in your home state and may even be Nationally Registered, you will not be recognized by license in Oregon. 

The state with the higher education requirements may allow you to work as an EMT, provided you meet those requirements,  until you meet the qualifications to gain licensure in that state.


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## EMTCLM

VentMedic said:


> By registered, do you mean that you have passed the National Registry exam?
> 
> The only thing that means is you have passed a test. You are not legal to represent yourself in most states as a Paramedic until you obtain a license or certification with that state. If you move to another state, regardless of what you were call in the other state, you must obtain another license in that state also to be recognized.
> 
> If you move to Oregon as a Paramedic from a state of 500 hour medic milsl, regardless of what you were called in your home state and may even be Nationally Registered, you will not be recognized by license in Oregon.
> 
> The state with the higher education requirements may allow you to work as an EMT, provided you meet those requirements,  until you meet the qualifications to gain licensure in that state.



Oh well I was just assuming the training was the same for the two states good point


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## EMTinNEPA

Sweet Abraham Lincoln's mother, this thread isn't dead yet?


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## medic417

EMTCLM said:


> Oh well I was just *assuming *the training was the same for the two states good point



You know what that word does to U.


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## EMTCLM

medic417 said:


> You know what that word does to U.



 I knew that would come back and bite me. Well let's just say this. I was under the impression that they were the same. There. Is that ok?


----------

