# petition regarding EMS instructors



## Zephyr (Oct 23, 2008)

Greetings,

Our Paramedic program recently lost some outstanding instructors.  Please read this petition and sign if you agree. Also, please forward the link to all other interested parties and groups who may want to sign. Thanks in advance.

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/reinstate-our-ems-instructors.html


----------



## reaper (Oct 23, 2008)

Why would sign for their reinstatement, when we have no idea why they were let go?


----------



## Ridryder911 (Oct 23, 2008)

Problem is unless one is an official student in those courses, signing this means NOTHING! 

As well, why was these instructors discharged? Conflict, costs reduction, poor performance, lack of educatioin? 

I have never seen a petition ever work. In fact, it is usually more damaging than helpful. Administrative actions will be carried out, any "wishy washy" decisions will be not be carried through. The only recourse would be for the instructors to take legal action, if applicable. 

R/r 911


----------



## VentMedic (Oct 23, 2008)

I see Zephyr is making his rounds to several forums.

Hmmm? An internet information gathering "mission"?


----------



## el Murpharino (Oct 23, 2008)

I cannot, in good faith, blindly sign a petition for termination of instructors that I have no further information on.  I understand a "take care of your own" mentality, but if they were let go, there had to be a reason.


----------



## Chimpie (Oct 23, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> Problem is unless one is an official student in those courses, signing this means NOTHING!
> 
> As well, why was these instructors discharged? Conflict, costs reduction, poor performance, lack of educatioin?
> 
> ...



I agree on Rid's multiple points.  These petitions are, for the most part, pointless.  Why would the opinion of random strangers who don't even have the full understanding of the situation matter to those who made the decision?



VentMedic said:


> I see Zephyr is making his rounds to several forums.
> 
> Hmmm? An internet information gathering "mission"?



Now let's not start hinting at any accusations here, but let's also keep in mind how easy it is to steal one's identity.

For those who wish to sign this or any petition, please do so with caution.


----------



## Zephyr (Oct 23, 2008)

reaper said:


> Why would sign for their reinstatement, when we have no idea why they were let go?



During their off duty hours sometime in early September 2008, four Saint John's University EMS Institute instructors were enjoying their time off at a night club without undue incident.  Some of their FORMER students, who had already graduated, were reportedly in the same night club that same night.  Upon learning this, the Saint John's University administration terminated the instructors on or about September 8, 2008.


----------



## Zephyr (Oct 23, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> I see Zephyr is making his rounds to several forums.
> 
> Hmmm? An internet information gathering "mission"?




I see there are some paranoid, negative, and pessimistic people in this forum.

To dissuade your suspicions, I have ZERO ill intent.  My sole "mission" in creating this petition and sending it to all the forums and groups to which I belong, including forums of the instructors' past & presents students, is to get our outstanding instructors back.  If you want to help, please sign.  If you don't want to help, don't sign.  Is it going to hurt you to sign a petition?  It costs nothing.  If the petition fails, it fails.  If it succeeds, you will have helped rehire some outstanding EMT and Paramedic instructors.

Other people have tried other means to get them back.  This is a last resort.  If you take the time to read and sign the petition, I thank you in advance.


Sincerely,
Zephyr


----------



## reaper (Oct 23, 2008)

I will ask again, what are you wanting us to sign? Why did they lose their jobs? What are their educations? How is their records?

You are their student, You have no way of knowing if they are good instructors or not. They lost their jobs for a reason. WHAT was that reason?


----------



## KEVD18 (Oct 23, 2008)

i shall decline for two reasons.

one, the utter futility of petitions is abounding. regardless of what television and movies show, students banding together have little effect on a boards decisions.

two, i dont know the school, the instructors, the students or the facts of the case. i have nothing but your version of the story and i have no intention of looking it up on my own. it doesnt affect me in any way.

if these instructors are really that good and they really are innocent of the charges against them, im sure they will have no trouble securing another position elsewhere.


----------



## Zephyr (Oct 23, 2008)

Chimpie said:


> I agree on Rid's multiple points.  These petitions are, for the most part, pointless.  Why would the opinion of random strangers who don't even have the full understanding of the situation matter to those who made the decision?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The only mandatory fields are Name and State/County/Province.  If you're afraid of your identity being stolen, don't sign with your full name, e.g. "Fred A".  The only fields visible to the public are Title, Name, Town/City, S/C/P, 	Region, Comment, and Date.


----------



## VentMedic (Oct 23, 2008)

Zephyr said:


> I see there are some paranoid, negative, and pessimistic people in this forum.


 
What? Why should we put our signature on something we know nothing about and from someone we know even less about? 



Zephyr said:


> To dissuade your suspicions, I have ZERO ill intent. My sole "mission" in creating this petition and sending it to all the forums and groups to which I belong, is to get our outstanding instructors back. If you want to help, please sign. If you don't want to help, don't sign. *Is it going to hurt you to sign a petition?* *It costs nothing.* If the petition fails, it fails. If it succeeds, you will have helped rehire some outstanding EMT and Paramedic instructors.


 
Yes. There is an internet security issue and I don't want my name attached to defend somene(s) who may have been involved in something that I don't stand for. Not only does that include criminal activity but also the failure to meet the required educational requirements. 

So the cost to me might be my identity or being identified with something I wish not to. 



Zephyr said:


> Other people have tried other means to get them back. This is a last resort.


 
That speaks volumes!


----------



## Zephyr (Oct 23, 2008)

reaper said:


> I will ask again, what are you wanting us to sign?



Please READ the original post AND the petition.  The link to the petition, which I'm requesting people review and sign, is in the first post of this thread.

"Why did they lose their jobs?"

Please read the above post.

"What are their educations? How is their records?"

I don't know where they went to school and what degrees they've obtained.  As far as I know from speaking with their fellow instructors and their past students, they are outstanding Paramedics and instructors.

"You are their student, You have no way of knowing if they are good instructors or not."

Yes, I do.  I've been under their personal instruction.  I've been under the tutelage of many instructors, of all types, for many years.  I too am an instructor (in other disciplines).  I know the difference between good and bad instructors, thank you.  These Paramedics have been saving lives in New York City and other locations for years.  If they weren't outstanding instructors, I wouldn't spend much of my free time to attempt to have them reinstated.

"They lost their jobs for a reason. WHAT was that reason?"

Please read above.  Thanks.


----------



## Zephyr (Oct 23, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> What? Why should we put our signature on something we know nothing about and from someone we know even less about?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Then DON'T sign it.  Move on to the next thread.  How difficult is that?  

To those who do sign, I thank you sincerely.


----------



## Zephyr (Oct 23, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> What? Why should we put our signature on something we know nothing about and from someone we know even less about?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Your internet security was compromised as soon as your computer connected to the outside world, and further more when you registered and logged into this forum.  Filling out some empty data fields in a petition will do little to further degrade your internet security.  If you want complete internet security, log off from this forum, disconnect your computer from the outside world, and leave it as a stand-alone computer.


----------



## VentMedic (Oct 23, 2008)

zephyr said:


> your internet security was compromised as soon as your computer connected to the outside world, and further more when you registered and logged into this forum. *filling out some empty data fields in a petition will do little to further degrade your internet security.* if you want complete internet security, log off from this forum, disconnect your computer from the outside world, and leave it as a stand-alone computer.


 

lol!!    I would say someone is a little naive on the subject.


----------



## Zephyr (Oct 23, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> lol!!    I would say someone is a little naive on the subject.



Say (or type) what you will.


----------



## Ridryder911 (Oct 23, 2008)

Here's the deal. I have been an educator for several years at many institutions and realize one is not fired just for visiting a club. If they have tenure they would not be touched, and if they did violate the morality clause, they ought to be fired. Sorry, if this was the sole reason  or case; their adults they knew the rules, they signed the contract. 

Again signing a petition on the Internet is not worth one that would be on paper. At least one could wipe with that. If not careful, as a student one can definitely irritate and may change the fate of their future by not "*knowing the full story*". 

Also, I ask how do you know they were great? Ever been to another Paramedic school? No? Then you really have nothing to evaluate and compare by. 

Again, the only real course of action would be for the instructors to seek legal advice. Even having students attempt to take action appears unprofessional and may harm their future as educators.

R/r 911


----------



## reaper (Oct 23, 2008)

Zephyr said:


> Please READ the original post AND the petition.  The link to the petition, which I'm requesting people review and sign, is in the first post of this thread.
> 
> "Why did they lose their jobs?"
> 
> ...



The post does not tell me anything. They were at a nightclub? That is not a reason to be fired. Something must have happened. If you do not know the reason, then I suggest you not back them. This is your reputation on the line.

For all I know from that post, they could have been drunk at a strip club, fondeling the girls and then attacked the former students for no reason! Then they left the club and raped ten women! (see the point here)

Something happened here, that someone is affraid to let out. If that is the case, then they need to be fired. I have no problem standing up to help someone. I will not do that unless I know the whole story.


----------



## mycrofft (Oct 23, 2008)

*hmmmm...no. Just my four cents' worth.*

Z, I generically don't "pass on" stuff and especially do not contribute to "pyramids". And I am affronted that you imply this website compromised my security the second I logged on. I'm not one of the longest time members, but I don't feel this post is in the site's intent.


----------



## Zephyr (Oct 23, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> Here's the deal. I have been an educator for several years at many institutions and realize one is not fired just for visiting a club. If they have tenure they would not be touched, and if they did violate the morality clause, they ought to be fired. Sorry, if this was the sole reason  or case; their adults they knew the rules, they signed the contract.
> 
> Again signing a petition on the Internet is not worth one that would be on paper. At least one could wipe with that. If not careful, as a student one can definitely irritate and may change the fate of their future by not "*knowing the full story*".
> 
> ...




Ridryder,

PLEASE READ the petition.  Reading it would've saved a lot of back and forth posts.  If you read it, you will find out that no specific reason was given when they were terminated.  If you read the petition, you will most likely ascertain that the instructors were terminated for fraternizing with students.  However, you will probably ascertain that this was PERCEIVED fraternization, because the "fraternizees" were FORMER students-- they had already graduated.  Do I need to break it down further?  Please READ it BEFORE you post another question about the petition.


"Also, I ask how do you know they were great? Ever been to another Paramedic school? No? Then you really have nothing to evaluate and compare by. "

I've spoken with their current and former students, and with Paramedics & EMTs with whom they work in the field.  I've also spoken with Paramedics, students, and faculty of other Paramedic programs.  I began conducting research on EMT & Paramedics programs in Fall 2006 before I decided to apply to this program in Summer 2008.  I got information from multiple independent sources before I applied, and before I created the petition.  


'Again signing a petition on the Internet is not worth one that would be on paper. At least one could wipe with that. If not careful, as a student one can definitely irritate and may change the fate of their future by not "*knowing the full story*". '

When I've received a decent number of signatures, I will PRINT OUT THE PETITION.  I also have a hard copy version for those people who choose not to sign the online petition.  Don't you think I thought of this already?

Does this help?  Why does it seem like people assume I didn't do or plan any of this, merely because I didn't type it all here to inform you?  If I elaborated in detail, how I came to apply to this program, and how I came to create a petition, I'd have a gazillion post count by now.  And you would've been b!+ch!ng at me for another reason-- for posting too much!  Aren't you happy that I don't bore you all to death?


----------



## Zephyr (Oct 23, 2008)

mycrofft said:


> Z, I generically don't "pass on" stuff and especially do not contribute to "pyramids". And I am affronted that you imply this website compromised my security the second I logged on. I'm not one of the longest time members, but I don't feel this post is in the site's intent.



mycrofft,

When did I ever state that you "pass on" stuff?  When did I ever state that you "contribute to pyramids"?!  When did I ever state that "this website compromised" your security?!  Stop putting words in my mouth (or typing words on my keyboard).

Each time any bits of information go from your computer to this or any website and vice versa, the 0s and 1s don't go directly from your computer to the website.  Anyone with the right know-how and the right gear can intercept the 0s and 1s AT your computer, AT the website's server, AND ANYWHERE in between.  I wasn't implying any of the allegations you make.  Do I need to break everything down?  I hope this helps.


----------



## reaper (Oct 23, 2008)

Z,

 That's what I would like to know? Professors and instructors fraternize with students all the time. There is nothing wrong with it.

If you are pushing for their reinstatement, don't you think it would be good to learn the whole story? You are putting your rep on the line. 

You have every right to start a petition. But, you should learn and post the truth. This will inform anyone that would sign it.


----------



## Zephyr (Oct 23, 2008)

reaper said:


> Z,
> 
> That's what I would like to know? Professors and instructors fraternize with students all the time. There is nothing wrong with it.
> 
> ...



"Professors and instructors fraternize with students all the time. There is nothing wrong with it."

Tell that to SJU's Administration.


"If you are pushing for their reinstatement, don't you think it would be good to learn the whole story? You are putting your rep on the line. "

I collected information from multiple independent sources.  Thanks for your concern.


----------



## Ridryder911 (Oct 23, 2008)

Are you sure those instructors want this to be done? I know I would want to preserve what little dignity I have left and possibility of being hired by another institution after being fired without someone rallying for my job. As well, if this is a potential legal issue one wants to be very, very discreet.

It is obviously, you do not understand the profession of academia. Professionalism and discretion is the utmost on those that work within the system. 

Do you really think having someone not even associated with your program signing a petition would have weight or credibility to the Provo, Dean and Academic Board of Regents? I have seen legitimate professors be fired for various and multiple reasons and one of the first things is to be sure it is handled very discreetly and professionally. As well, most of those that do understand the tight network of EMS educators do NOT want any associated information about them until it has been cleared or handled legally, so they may work at another institution. 

I realize students can be emotionally bonded to instructors. This is normal and to be expected, as the Dean or those responsible for firing recognizes also, hence the reason petitions never work. Now as good as the intentions maybe, those may have ruined or may possibly create problems for these instructors. Even if they are "superb, fantastic" whatever.. Now, thanks to those well meaning students is now publicizing about thier  instructors associated with this program. 

There are certain procedures and ways of handling things with diplomacy. This is NOT the way to do it. If you really are concerned with their career(s) I would be very cautious on posting without their permission, or anything associated with this incident. 

R/r 911


----------



## VentMedic (Oct 23, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> Problem is unless one is an official student in those courses, signing this means NOTHING!


 


Zephyr said:


> When I've received a decent number of signatures, I will PRINT OUT THE PETITION. I also have a hard copy version for those people who choose not to sign the online petition. Don't you think I thought of this already?


 
You seem to be missing a big point here.  All signatures, internet or otherwise, are worthless unless the people have a vested interest in that program. 

If BossyCow from Washington, Rid from Oklahoma and me from Florida signed the petition our signatures would be meaningless in NY.  None of us are students at St. Johns.  None of us would have any vested interest in whoever or whatever.   And then, the signatures with names and addresses would be carried around by someone we do not know and have never met for a cause we have little or no knowledge about.  

You have your petition on several EMS forums to collect signatures, which could even be bogus, on forums with anonymous posters.


----------



## ffemt8978 (Oct 23, 2008)

Thread closed until people leave their attitudes at the door.


----------

