# EMS use of body armor studied



## DT4EMS (Aug 13, 2006)

EMS use of body armor studied

A grant program allowed about half of all Miramar paramedics to wear bulletproof vests, which until recently were used primarily by police officers.

BY NATALIE P. McNEAL
nmcneal@MiamiHerald.com

When some Miramar paramedics rush to help victims of shootings, stabbings and domestic violence, they usually wear bullet-proof vests -- until recently the most common protection for law enforcement officers.

''Anything can happen when you're out on a call,'' said Lt. Craig McElhaney, who has worked in fire-rescue for 12 years and has worn a vest for nearly two years. ``I've been to calls for a drug overdose and discovered the kid had a gun under his pillow.''................................................


''We are looking for ways to keep our crews safe in the streets,'' Miramar Emergency Medical Services Chief Bill Huff said.

The vests protect against all bullets except those from .22-caliber guns. They don't offer much protection from knives. But they do protect the body from kicks and blunt objects, Huff said.

Fifty percent of paramedics in his department said they had been assaulted or threatened while on duty, Huff said..................................................


''We feel better with them on,'' McElhaney said.

Huff said that after so many firefighters were injured and killed after the 9/11 terror attacks, many emergency workers saw the need for more protection.

And as domestic violence and assault calls increase, paramedics -- who are sometimes at the scene before the police -- are put in harm's way more often.

Last month, a North Carolina paramedic was shot in the chest after she responded to an ''unresponsive man.'' As the paramedic tried to move the man's body, he shot her.

Last year, a Flagler County paramedic was kicked in the chest by a patient while on a call and had to be rushed to the hospital.

Also last year, in Washington, D.C., a paramedic was beaten up by a seizure victim while in the ambulance. She had to call police to help her.


source: http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiheral...nty/cities_neighborhoods/miramar/15247368.htm


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## Jon (Aug 13, 2006)

DT4EMS said:
			
		

> EMS use of body armor studied
> 
> A grant program allowed about half of all Miramar paramedics to wear bulletproof vests, which until recently were used primarily by police officers.
> 
> ...



Kip... What vest won't stop a 22? That sounds like el-cheapo stuff... I think my Level IIa will stop anything up to a medium/high power 357 Mag. Granted, I'm probably swiss cheese if I get shot with a ._*223 *_round... but so is most anyone not wearing a ceramic plate.

Here is Galls saying what each level will stop:
http://www.galls.com/banijspecs.html


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## DT4EMS (Aug 13, 2006)

Actually a lot of the vests have failed at stopping .22 rounds. The little bullet is moving so fast the Kevlar doesn't have the time to slow it. It has something to do with the mushrooming  or lack of it with the .22 round.


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## fm_emt (Aug 15, 2006)

It's sounding kind of misleading. The standard .22 LR probably doesn't have the muzzle velocity to run through a kevlar vest. I think the .22 tops out around 1500fps. Not sure about the 'subsonic' rounds. 

Now, the .223 *does* have the muzzle velocity. They run around ~3200fps.
But your standard gang banger isn't carrying around anything that can fire a .223 round. Maybe a .221 but ammo for a .221 is kind of expensive, and the firearms themselves are farkin' ugly. And uncommon. The typical gang banger will be carrying a .45 ACP, .40, or a 9mm. Maybe a few guys will have revolvers in .357 or .38, but that's fairly uncommon these days. 

I'll ask my cop friend. heh.


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## ffemt8978 (Aug 15, 2006)

Most vests aren't tested against the .22.  In addition, barrel length plays a big factor in a bullet's retained velocity.


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## Jon (Aug 15, 2006)

fm_emt said:
			
		

> It's sounding kind of misleading. The standard .22 LR probably doesn't have the muzzle velocity to run through a kevlar vest. I think the .22 tops out around 1500fps. Not sure about the 'subsonic' rounds.
> 
> Now, the .223 *does* have the muzzle velocity. They run around ~3200fps.
> But your standard gang banger isn't carrying around anything that can fire a .223 round. Maybe a .221 but ammo for a .221 is kind of expensive, and the firearms themselves are farkin' ugly. And uncommon. The typical gang banger will be carrying a .45 ACP, .40, or a 9mm. Maybe a few guys will have revolvers in .357 or .38, but that's fairly uncommon these days.
> ...


Great point.

I'm also a little worried about 50 caliber.... they put big holes in things!


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## fm_emt (Aug 15, 2006)

*The LEO says..*

"Typical vests offer protection from handgun rounds and not rifle rounds. The paragraph was just poorly written. Vests will stop .22 rounds but not .223 or any other rifle round unless the vest is much heavier and designed to stop rifle rounds."

So, yeah....they're meant to stop the gang bangers from pulling out the 9mm and firing, not the guy that's down the street with the .308.


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## AnthonyM83 (Nov 15, 2006)

My guess would be a thinner bullet goes through the vest better in the way an icepick would penetrate it better than a Sharpie, but not as well as a needle..

Does anyone have more data on EMT assaults/attacks, especially by firearms? I'm considering wearing my vest from a previous job, but the ridicule at work would be great. I'd at least like some stats to back it up and not seem like a Ricky Rescue.


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## DT4EMS (Nov 15, 2006)

You got mail.


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## Jon (Nov 15, 2006)

Kip... can you hook me up, too?


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## DT4EMS (Nov 15, 2006)

Jon said:


> Kip... can you hook me up, too?



I sent you a regular email.


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## gradygirl (Nov 17, 2006)

Now, would a vest with stab protection stop something like a .22? I'm getting a IIIA vest that is also at the Spike 3 level...


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## fm_emt (Nov 17, 2006)

TCERT1987 said:


> Now, would a vest with stab protection stop something like a .22? I'm getting a IIIA vest that is also at the Spike 3 level...



Yep. Earlier in the thread I noted that most vests oughta stop a typical 22 caliber round. It's the rifle rounds you'd have to worry about - most handgun rounds are 'low velocity' and can be stopped by vests. But gang bangers don't usually pop up with high powered rifles. 

At least they don't around here. It's mostly small caliber handguns.


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## Summit (Nov 18, 2006)

Jon said:


> Great point.
> 
> I'm also a little worried about 50 caliber.... they put big holes in things!



if someone is putting .50 in your direction, you probably have two courses of action

1. Yell into the radio "checkfire checkfire blue on blue don't shoot cease fire cease fire cease fire" etc because its the SWAT sniper who is shooting at you

2. Yell into the radio "request close air support at..." because you are probably in iraq and can do cool stuff like call in CAS... then return fire with own weapon

i know of no instances where criminals have engaged ES personell... or *anyone* with .50


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## premedtim (Nov 18, 2006)

Summit said:


> if someone is putting .50 in your direction, you probably have two courses of action
> 
> 1. Yell into the radio "checkfire checkfire blue on blue don't shoot cease fire cease fire cease fire" etc because its the SWAT sniper who is shooting at you
> 
> ...



Does SWAT even use 50 caliber? I was under the impression they use the police version of the M24 SWS, I believe it's a Remington 700 LTR and it's in either .223 or .308 but not 50 caliber by any means.


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## AnthonyM83 (Nov 18, 2006)

Summit said:


> if someone is putting .50 in your direction, you probably have two courses of action
> 
> 1. Yell into the radio "checkfire checkfire blue on blue don't shoot cease fire cease fire cease fire" etc because its the SWAT sniper who is shooting at you
> 
> ...


Or speed-dial the DOD because we're apparently being invaded by a foreign country...


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## RescueRandy (Nov 20, 2006)

AnthonyM83 said:


> My guess would be a thinner bullet goes through the vest better in the way an icepick would penetrate it better than a Sharpie, but not as well as a needle..
> 
> Does anyone have more data on EMT assaults/attacks, especially by firearms? I'm considering wearing my vest from a previous job, but the ridicule at work would be great. I'd at least like some stats to back it up and not seem like a Ricky Rescue.



So in LA it's not popular? Guess it depends on the area you work too. Back in the day (late 80's) in Atlanta the crime was pretty bad and I wore one, as my partner did. Maybe only a half dozen in the service wore, but I never got any crap over it, at least to my face.

Never got shot, but had a couple guns pointed at me, so I got a little comfort from it.


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## AnthonyM83 (Nov 20, 2006)

RescueRandy said:


> So in LA it's not popular? Guess it depends on the area you work too. Back in the day (late 80's) in Atlanta the crime was pretty bad and I wore one, as my partner did. Maybe only a half dozen in the service wore, but I never got any crap over it, at least to my face.
> 
> Never got shot, but had a couple guns pointed at me, so I got a little comfort from it.



I've asked a few people and each time I get this weird look like, "umm, no I don't know anyone who wears a vest...why would you". And we work a few of the relatively harsh parts of LA, too. But I guess it takes a big incident for people to start thinking about this seriously.


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## RescueRandy (Nov 20, 2006)

AnthonyM83 said:


> I've asked a few people and each time I get this weird look like, "umm, no I don't know anyone who wears a vest...why would you". And we work a few of the relatively harsh parts of LA, too. But I guess it takes a big incident for people to start thinking about this seriously.



You just don't want to be part of that "big inicident". But really, it depends on how YOU act too. Back then, in my youth, I liked to play hard, and spoke before I thought about it, so I brought a lot on myself.


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## jeepmedic (Nov 20, 2006)

When I worked in Greensboro we were issued vest. We had to have them every shift. Most of the people kept them in the truck so they did little good. We would put them on if we were going to a shooting or a police stand-by. I really think that you should wear them if you have it though. Just my .02.


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## RescueRandy (Nov 21, 2006)

An issue is expensive for some dept. maybe. If you work for a private service then they will not want to shell out for an expensive item like a vest. I got mine from a hospital based service that didn't require them, but would issue one if you requested it.

Be interesting to see how many of you all that work for a private service get offered a vest?


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## SwissEMT (Nov 30, 2006)

premedtim said:


> Does SWAT even use 50 caliber? I was under the impression they use the police version of the M24 SWS, I believe it's a Remington 700 LTR and it's in either .223 or .308 but not 50 caliber by any means.



Certain larger police departments have purchased M82 Barrett rifles for special applications. Los Angeles Police Department SWAT has purchased multiple rifles but it is not a common purchase due to price.

SWAT most commonly use .308 or .300. 

The .50 caliber is really of no worry to any of us statistically speaking. Though the rifle HAS been used on law enforcement, it was on high-risk operations in which we are not authorized on scene.

The .50caliber rifle has been present at:

-The up-armored bulldozer chase (Which many of you have seen on tv at one time or another) where a barrett was mounted on the bulldozer but never used. 
-Waco, TX. Where LEO were fired upon with a .50 caliber rifle. Thus the reason for Bradley Fighting vehicles being used. 4 ATF members were killed.


There has been ONE event were EMS has been fired at with a .50caliber rifle:

In February 2004, Kansas City, MI. 
Where LEO, Firefighters and Paramedics were lured to a mans house where he shot at them with many weapons including a .50cal. No deaths reported.

Look, with a .50cal it doesn't matter what you're wearing or behind. But the chances of you being fired at with one are literally close to none. Worry more about the things that can actually happen. Get trained. Get body armor to protect you against stabbings and firearms. 

If I were you, I'd worry more about knives than guns even.


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## Jon (Nov 30, 2006)

Well said, SwissEMT... I would expect that the "huge" city SWAT teams have them (LA, NYC, perhaps the other top-10 cities). As for being shot by one... They are the bullets that go through engine blocks.


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## Luno (Nov 30, 2006)

*Small things...*

SwissEMT, just a minor correction
SWAT most commonly use .308 or .300. 
or .338 Lapua 
The .50 caliber is really of no worry to any of us statistically speaking. Though the rifle HAS been used on law enforcement, it was on high-risk operations in which we are not authorized on scene.
This entirely dependant on the team SOP, not the risk of the operation.

Summit, if you're taking incoming .50, you're probably on the wrong side anyway, I'd look more towards 7.62x54 than .50 BMG.

Jon
Well said, SwissEMT... I would expect that the "huge" city SWAT teams have them (LA, NYC, perhaps the other top-10 cities). As for being shot by one... They are the bullets that go through engine blocks.
Actually, it would depend on the round, but not very likely...


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## SwissEMT (Dec 1, 2006)

Luno said:


> SwissEMT, just a minor correction
> SWAT most commonly use .308 or .300.
> or .338 Lapua



Thanks for the addition, I realize that you're much more qualified in commenting on this than I am  Didn't know that they were using the Lapua. One hell of a round! Do you know what rifles departments are currently fielding chambered for it?

Regarding SOPs. Since the majority of our members are not TEMS, would they not be put on standby until the scene was secure? 

I realize I'm way out of lane,

-SwissEMT


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