# Self-Defense and EMS



## Hopeless Romantic (Sep 11, 2009)

So I just started my EMT class and in our last class we talked about the roles and responsibilities of an EMT. The first and most important one is your own safety. Then the safety of your crew. My question is if your a police officer and your on scene. The police left and for whatever reason a family member pulls out a knife, do you retreat, or do you handle the situation since you have been trained to handle this?


----------



## medichopeful (Sep 11, 2009)

Hopeless Romantic said:


> So I just started my EMT class and in our last class we talked about the roles and responsibilities of an EMT. The first and most important one is your own safety. Then the safety of your crew. My question is if your a police officer and your on scene. The police left and for whatever reason a family member pulls out a knife, do you retreat, or do you handle the situation since you have been trained to handle this?



I'm assuming that you are talking about if you are only acting as an EMT, correct?  I would suggest that you retreat, radio, and re-evaluate.  DO NOT TRY TO TAKE ON SOMEBODY WITH A KNIFE IF YOU ARE NOT ARMED AND TRAINED.

If you are responding as both an EMT and a LEO, that is a different case.  Do what you are trained to do as a cop.

Basically, your reaction should depend on what your function is.  If you are on duty as an EMT, do what your EMT training says to do (retreat).  If you are on duty as a police officer, do what your police training says to do.  If you are on duty as both an EMT and a LEO (and you are properly equipped), do what your police training says to do, as there is an immediate threat to life.

Listen to other's input as well.


----------



## medichopeful (Sep 11, 2009)

Hopeless Romantic said:


> So I just started my EMT class and in our last class we talked about the roles and responsibilities of an EMT. The first and most important one is your own safety. Then the safety of your crew. My question is if your a police officer and your on scene. The police left and for whatever reason a family member pulls out a knife, do you retreat, or do you handle the situation since you have been trained to handle this?



By the way, I would hope that the police would never do this.  Once they are there, they should stay until you leave (in my opinion), as things can change rapidly.


----------



## Akulahawk (Sep 11, 2009)

Hopeless Romantic said:


> So I just started my EMT class and in our last class we talked about the roles and responsibilities of an EMT. The first and most important one is your own safety. Then the safety of your crew. My question is *if your a police officer and your on scene*. The police left and for whatever reason a family member pulls out a knife, do you retreat, or do you handle the situation since you have been trained to handle this?


If you're a LEO who is also an EMT who is providing care on scene and the above somehow managed to happen? You would already know the answer to the question as it would have been addressed in you LEO Academy. Here's a hint... you act as a cop...

If you're NOT a LEO and they're no longer on scene, you retreat, radio for help, let the LEO come back and handle the situation. Going toe to toe with someone armed with a knife and you without a weapon is an excellent way for you to get seriously injured or killed. You WILL get cut...

I do know a little more than the average bear on this one... and I'm not a cop.


----------



## DT4EMS (Sep 11, 2009)

Hopeless Romantic said:


> So I just started my EMT class and in our last class we talked about the roles and responsibilities of an EMT. The first and most important one is your own safety. Then the safety of your crew. My question is if your a police officer and your on scene. The police left and for whatever reason a family member pulls out a knife, do you retreat, or do you handle the situation since you have been trained to handle this?



Retreat, Retreat, Retreat!!!

That is even what we train an officer to do........ retreat to cover then, from COVER put rounds on target.

In EMS you leave.........period.

My hobby is Kali-Silat under Mas Guru P.Greg Alland....... in my own school we knife spar and even grapple with knives..... RETREAT!

Come see me at the EMS Expo in Atlanta  I will help show how to retreat 

Kip


----------



## 46Young (Sep 11, 2009)

Always have a means of egress. Don't let pts/bystanders linger in between you and the door. You and your partner should have a predetermined code word that you'll use if there's something of concern onscene and you want police summoned, but don't want anyone to know what you're doing. You can say to your partner "Do you mind running out to the rig to grab me a size 15 ETT?" Use something that you don't carry on the rig as a code word. Carry a large flashlight to use as a weapon if you're cornered. Otherwise, always try to run away. Don't get sued for striking someone. They're guaranteed to flip the story on you when the cops are there.


----------



## berkeman (Sep 11, 2009)

Hopeless Romantic said:


> So I just started my EMT class and in our last class we talked about the roles and responsibilities of an EMT. The first and most important one is your own safety. Then the safety of your crew. My question is if your a police officer and your on scene. The police left and for whatever reason a family member pulls out a knife, do you retreat, or do you handle the situation since you have been trained to handle this?



If you are (you're) a police officer and you are (you're) on scene, and the police left, how could you still be there?


----------



## surname_levi (Sep 11, 2009)

haha i was playing in my head an EMT trying to take on someone with a knife and thinking "i was trained to do this"


----------



## Lifeguards For Life (Sep 11, 2009)

Hopeless Romantic said:


> So I just started my EMT class and in our last class we talked about the roles and responsibilities of an EMT. The first and most important one is your own safety. Then the safety of your crew. My question is if your a police officer and your on scene. The police left and for whatever reason a family member pulls out a knife, do you retreat, or do you handle the situation since you have been trained to handle this?



     unless you're agency is dually or tri certified, you are either one or the other. The majority of EMS agencies that are not LE, do not permit employees to carry firearms whlie on duty. Even if you are employed elsewhere as a police officer, in the scenario you post, if you are not on duty as a LEO, you're not a police officer on that scene and should not act as one. As an unarmed EMT with police training, attempting to disarm a potential attacker, when you have the option of retreating is foolish, and should be considered as a last resort only. I would only fight if the knife welder posed an imminent life threat to myself, or my partner.
     I never allow any patient, victim, anyone who is not in public safety between me and the exit. Never allow yourself to somehow be backed into a corner. no one should ever be between you and you're exit. Also if a patient is acting suspicious, you can't see they're hands i will ask them to come to me if the situation warrants it.
Remember it is not you're emergency, it is you're patients emergency. As long as you play it safe, excercise caution, there is no reason why you should not be going home safe every morning.


----------



## Hopeless Romantic (Sep 12, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I'm asking for two reasons. One is because I've been training in martial arts for 5+ years and wanted to know how this would affect my situation should I ever be in it. Also, I am hoping to become a police officer after I graduate college and probably going to continue in EMS for a while.

Berkeman, to answer your question I was saying that I was responding as EMS, but my career was as a police officer.


----------



## Akulahawk (Sep 12, 2009)

Hopeless Romantic said:


> Thanks for the feedback everyone. I'm asking for two reasons. One is because I've been training in martial arts for 5+ years and wanted to know how this would affect my situation should I ever be in it. Also, I am hoping to become a police officer after I graduate college and probably going to continue in EMS for a while.
> 
> Berkeman, to answer your question I was saying that I was responding as EMS, but my career was as a police officer.


You'll get all the proper training for that as a Police Officer, in the academy. Your Martial Arts will give you a wider range of options than the typical DTAC training... but you will be told what you are to do by agency policy.


----------



## daedalus (Sep 12, 2009)

I would point out that Kip (DT4EMS) is our resident expert in self defense for EMS workers. He regularly teaches classes and speaks on the subject.

So, I will echo his advice. Retreat. Call PD.


----------



## EMTinNEPA (Sep 12, 2009)

A very similar scenario happened to me recently.  The ALS unit I was working on responded to a suicide attempt.  The patient had tried to kill herself by slitting her wrists, but didn't do a very good job of it.  When we got there, the police were out on the porch and the local volunteer ambulance crew was washing the patient's wrists off in the kitchen sink.  All of a sudden, the patient picked up a knife (not a butter knife, a 10-inch steak knife) and almost got one of the EMT's in the stomach.  Fortunately, they were able to restrain her until our shouting got the police to come back inside.

So yes, medichopeful, police DO do such things from time to time.  Needless to say, I think a nasty-gram or two will be written as a result of the incident.


----------



## Lifeguards For Life (Sep 12, 2009)

EMTinNEPA said:


> A very similar scenario happened to me recently.  The ALS unit I was working on responded to a suicide attempt.  The patient had tried to kill herself by slitting her wrists, but didn't do a very good job of it.  When we got there, the police were out on the porch and the local volunteer ambulance crew was washing the patient's wrists off in the kitchen sink.  All of a sudden, the patient picked up a knife (not a butter knife, a 10-inch steak knife) and almost got one of the EMT's in the stomach.  Fortunately, they were able to restrain her until our shouting got the police to come back inside.
> 
> So yes, medichopeful, police DO do such things from time to time.  Needless to say, I think a nasty-gram or two will be written as a result of the incident.



Is washing lacerations in the kitchen sink part of you're protocols?


----------



## Sasha (Sep 12, 2009)

Hopeless Romantic said:


> Thanks for the feedback everyone. I'm asking for two reasons. One is because I've been training in martial arts for 5+ years and wanted to know how this would affect my situation should I ever be in it. Also, I am hoping to become a police officer after I graduate college and probably going to continue in EMS for a while.
> 
> Berkeman, to answer your question I was saying that I was responding as EMS, but my career was as a police officer.



If you are working as an EMT, you are working as an EMT. If you are working as a police officer, you are working as a police officer. You do not cross these professions. Ambulance companies didn't hire a cop, they hired an EMT and expect you to handle situations like an EMT, and as an EMT/Paramedic we are taught personal safety first. My personal safety is not towards the agressor, but away from it.


----------



## medic417 (Sep 12, 2009)

Just pull your concealed firearm and shoot them in self defense.  Issue solved.


----------



## medichopeful (Sep 12, 2009)

Hopeless Romantic said:


> Thanks for the feedback everyone. I'm asking for two reasons. One is because I've been training in martial arts for 5+ years and wanted to know how this would affect my situation should I ever be in it. Also, I am hoping to become a police officer after I graduate college and probably going to continue in EMS for a while.
> 
> Berkeman, to answer your question I was saying that I was responding as EMS, but my career was as a police officer.



Never, ever, EVER goes hands on with someone with a knife.  It is a good way for you to end up dead or very seriously injured.  If they attack you, try to get away.  If worst comes to worst, do just enough to get away.  Unless you are acting as a cop.  THEN do what you are trained to do.  But still, keep yourself safe.


----------



## BruceD (Sep 12, 2009)

Hopeless Romantic said:


> Thanks for the feedback everyone. I'm asking for two reasons. One is because I've been training in martial arts for 5+ years and wanted to know how this would affect my situation should I ever be in it. Also, I am hoping to become a police officer after I graduate college and probably going to continue in EMS for a while.
> 
> Berkeman, to answer your question I was saying that I was responding as EMS, but my career was as a police officer.



Most martial artist instructors are very careful to instruct/show you to just how badly you can be hurt by even an unskilled assailant with a bladed weapon.

The defenses you are taught in class are not meant to be used if you can RUN AWAY, these moves are for last-ditch "save my (insert EMT-LIFE appropriate word for buttocks here)" situations.

Your #1 primary goal in your job is to get home to your family, they need a husband/father/mother/brother/sister not a newspaper article and a picture with the word 'hero' written under it.

Sorry for the long-winded response, I've just seen more than I want of knife vs unarmed.

Stay Safe
-B

PS. Just as a side note, be aware that a person with a knife is dangerous even at what most consider a 'safe' distance.


----------



## Akulahawk (Sep 12, 2009)

BruceD said:


> Most martial artist instructors are very careful to instruct/show you to just how badly you can be hurt by even an unskilled assailant with a bladed weapon.
> 
> The defenses you are taught in class are not meant to be used if you can RUN AWAY, these moves are for last-ditch "save my (insert EMT-LIFE appropriate word for buttocks here)" situations.
> 
> ...


I've done the Tueller drill... 21 feet really is the minimum distance needed to be able to recognize the blade threat, draw, and fire. If someone has a blade out, and is threatening me or my family... and I'm armed... and they're within 21 feet... I'm going to seriously consider shooting them to stop that threat. My actions will be determined by the person who is armed. I can very easily articulate my training and experience to that effect in court...

That being said... again, once the OP has gone to an academy, he'll learn what he'll need to do in those situations. Especially since the situation he's positing is that of a LEO who is working EMS... as a LEO...


----------



## fiddlesticks (Sep 12, 2009)

Ha get the hell out of there #1 in  rule in ems i like me best then my partner so yeah dont even think of taking on a nut bag with a knife.


----------



## DV_EMT (Sep 12, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Just pull your concealed firearm and shoot them in self defense.  Issue solved.



see related thread. IMPO.... i think that EMS should be allowed to carry some form of self defense. whether it be tazer, pepper spray, or gun... just so long as we treat them after we taze them or whatever... but thats coming from me


----------



## squrt29batt12 (Sep 12, 2009)

BSI/Scene Safety:excl:, if the scene ain't safe, my *** is out of there!

of course, with few exceptions, one NOT being a disgruntled family member with a knife coming my way


----------



## EMTinNEPA (Sep 12, 2009)

Lifeguards For Life said:


> Is washing lacerations in the kitchen sink part of you're protocols?



No, but the idiot was doing it when we got there.  We were in the house less than 20 seconds when this happened.


----------



## Lifeguards For Life (Sep 12, 2009)

haha got it.


----------



## mycrofft (Sep 12, 2009)

*SEARCH people this is ragged to shreds.*

My former outfit did it right....roll in with a Blackhawk mounting a machine gun, HALO/swim/rappel or otherwise insert carrying automatic weapons, get the pt and boogie.


----------



## medic417 (Sep 12, 2009)

mycrofft said:


> My former outfit did it right....roll in with a Blackhawk mounting a machine gun, HALO/swim/rappel or otherwise insert carrying automatic weapons, get the pt and boogie.


----------



## Akulahawk (Sep 12, 2009)

mycrofft said:


> My former outfit did it right....roll in with a Blackhawk mounting a machine gun, HALO/swim/rappel or otherwise insert carrying automatic weapons, get the pt and boogie.


All part of a good CSAR day...


----------



## Cory (Sep 12, 2009)

Just doesn't look right...


----------



## medic417 (Sep 12, 2009)

Cory said:


> Just doesn't look right...[/QUOTE]
> 
> Your right those grey pants look stupid.


----------



## lightsandsirens5 (Sep 12, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Just pull your concealed firearm and shoot them in self defense.  Issue solved.



Ummm...kind of off topic here, but are you being sarcastic or is EMS in your area allowed to conceled carry? I don't think the can here.


----------



## Cory (Sep 12, 2009)

Medical professionals shouldn't carry guns. You're in the business of saving lives, not taking them.


----------



## medic417 (Sep 12, 2009)

lightsandsirens5 said:


> Ummm...kind of off topic here, but are you being sarcastic or is EMS in your area allowed to concealed carry? I don't think the can here.



It is service by service.  Most services make no policy.  If they say no and you are killed your family can sue and win because you were denied right to defend.  If they say yes and you do something stupid they are responsible.  So that is why most just ignore it and leave it up to you to obey gun laws in your area.


----------



## medic417 (Sep 12, 2009)

Cory said:


> Medical professionals shouldn't carry guns. You're in the business of saving lives, not taking them.



I'm in the business of supporting my family and that means my safety comes first.  It is my responsibility to ensure I get back home in as good if not better shape than when I left.


----------



## Cory (Sep 12, 2009)

medic417 said:


> I'm in the business of supporting my family and that means my safety comes first.  It is my responsibility to ensure I get back home in as good if not better shape than when I left.



9/10 times, pulling a gun on an already hostile person just makes them kill you quicker. If something looks dangerous, walk away and call for PD. If it is so sudden that you can't do that, chances are this is gonna be one of those 9.


----------



## medic417 (Sep 12, 2009)

Cory said:


> 9/10 times, pulling a gun on an already hostile person just makes them kill you quicker. If something looks dangerous, walk away and call for PD. If it is so sudden that you can't do that, chances are this is gonna one of those 9.



Please provide the proof.  Never mind you can't as that is an opinion not backed by any facts.

It would be nice if we all had that crystal ball that let us know we need to walk away.  But if they all of a sudden pull a gun you ain't got time to walk or even run.  But at least with a firearm you have if properly educated and trained have a fighting chance rather than being a sitting duck.


----------



## mycrofft (Sep 12, 2009)

*Granny, show me BOTH hands!*

(Hey, a lady weho looked like her tried to kosh me with a call light and stab me with a hidden tableknife in a convo!).


----------



## mycrofft (Sep 12, 2009)

*Oh, right, I was going to boycott these posts.*

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz:glare:


----------



## Cory (Sep 12, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Please provide the proof.  Never mind you can't as that is an opinion not backed by any facts.
> 
> It would be nice if we all had that crystal ball that let us know we need to walk away.  But if they all of a sudden pull a gun you ain't got time to walk or even run.  But at least with a firearm you have if properly educated and trained have a fighting chance rather than being a sitting duck.



If they all of a sudden pull a gun, and you're really dumb enough to respond by pulling your gun, then you are as good as dead my friend.

You can post all you want, but I am not going to argue with you about this anymore. You cannot change my opinon on this matter.


----------



## medic417 (Sep 12, 2009)

mycrofft said:


> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz:glare:


----------



## medic417 (Sep 12, 2009)

Cory said:


> If they all of a sudden pull a gun, and you're really dumb enough to respond by pulling your gun, then you are as good as dead my friend.
> 
> You can post all you want, but I am not going to argue with you about this anymore. You cannot change my opinon on this matter.



Call me dumb again and you can go.......................

I would have more chance fighting back than just letting them shoot me.  So I'll take a 1 % chance over a 0% any day.  

Not trying to change your opinion because many in EMS have no business carrying guns and sadly many of those have no business even being in EMS.


----------



## Katie (Sep 12, 2009)

Cory said:


> Medical professionals shouldn't carry guns. You're in the business of saving lives, not taking them.



in a perfect world where every scene was safe the yes that might be true, then again if the world were perfect there would be no need for ems or law enforcement for that matter.  regardless, i think it's usually unwise to take an all or nothing approach to these kinds of things.  there are a lot of places where it might really be smart to have ems carry guns.  



Cory said:


> 9/10 times, pulling a gun on an already hostile person just makes them kill you quicker. If something looks dangerous, walk away and call for PD. If it is so sudden that you can't do that, chances are this is gonna be one of those 9.



ideally we would have police backup on every dangerous call.  the reality is that police take a while to get there, and the places we respond to are dangerous.  to say that you are always going to be able to just walk away and call PD is assuming a lot.  despite the best made plans and care taken by yourself and your partner, the streets will be unpredictable... at least that's been my experience.  just my two cents.


----------



## ffemt8978 (Sep 13, 2009)

This thread better not go the way that almost every previous thread about this has.

Just a word of warning.


----------



## medichopeful (Sep 13, 2009)

I don't think that I will carry a firearm when I become an EMT after college.  I will, however, wear a bullet-resistant vest every minute that I am on duty.  If I am allowed to carry an ASP while on duty, I will do that as well.  However, I will not carry a firearm.


----------



## Akulahawk (Sep 13, 2009)

medichopeful said:


> I don't think that I will carry a firearm when I become an EMT after college.  I will, however, wear a bullet-resistant vest every minute that I am on duty.  If I am allowed to carry an ASP while on duty, I will do that as well.  However, I will not carry a firearm.


Wherever you do work, make sure you know the local laws and company policy regarding weapons while on duty. You may or may not have to be certified/licensed to carry that weapon...

However, body armor isn't a bad idea. It can keep you warmer in winter, provide some impact distribution if you end up bouncing around in the back of the bus, and make for a really, really uncomfortable summer... personal sauna.

If legal in your area, your choice to be armed while on duty is a personal one.. a very, very personal one. I'll leave it at that.


----------



## medichopeful (Sep 13, 2009)

Akulahawk said:


> Wherever you do work, make sure you know the local laws and company policy regarding weapons while on duty. You may or may not have to be certified/licensed to carry that weapon...
> 
> However, body armor isn't a bad idea. It can keep you warmer in winter, provide some impact distribution if you end up bouncing around in the back of the bus, and make for a really, really uncomfortable summer... personal sauna.
> 
> If legal in your area, your choice to be armed while on duty is a personal one.. a very, very personal one. I'll leave it at that.



Don't worry.  I would check the applicable laws before I did anything.  I believe that where I want to work, you are allowed to carry an ASP.  But I was planning on checking before I did anything.

And yes, though the body armor will get hot, it's better to get hot than be dead.


----------



## DV_EMT (Sep 13, 2009)

If your gonna carry a gun while on duty... I say put it in an ankle holster because that way people dont know your carrying it. 

My idea is...better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

Did anyone else watch "Mother, Jugs, and Speed"? lady pulled a shotgun on an EMT...and shot him... fortunately bill cosby pulls out his trusty .357 and shoots around her to spook her... but she uses the shotgun to commit suicide....

gotta look at pros and cons


----------



## Lifeguards For Life (Sep 13, 2009)

seems to me if EMS was to carry firearms, we should, to some extent be cross trained as LE. there are a few departments in my are that are cross trained as LEOs, EMT/Paramedics and Fire Fighters, and there departments have all the respective apparatus's


----------



## DV_EMT (Sep 13, 2009)

I agree... or at least the basic gun safety and legal reprocussions..I mean, we as EMT and Medics know how to treat a GSW if worse comes to worse... but a few basic courses couldn't hurt ya know?


----------



## Lifeguards For Life (Sep 13, 2009)

agreed. i was going to say that ems carrying a gun would make many situations more dangerous, but that is really circumstantial and not entirely true. i would never point a gun at anything/anyone i did not fully intend to shoot. now if a pt/perp whoever has a gun, they are more or less in control, but as soon as i draw they only have 2 choices 1. take a shot at me 2. be shot/go to jail. something to think about it. may escalate many violent situations, may stop some. be interesting to know if there are any studies on the subject


----------



## Akulahawk (Sep 13, 2009)

There are several forums on the 'net that deal pretty specifically with legal issues and firearms. There are two that I'm aware of in California that have people that do KNOW the issues. Those sites would likely know about those studies you seek... Keep in mind that they're California specific sites. I don't want to list them here without getting approval from this site to list them here. Those sites wouldn't mind...

I'm not a LEO. I have learned MUCH about this subject, mostly as it pertains to California. Other states have similar issues though, but most are more permissive in the area of CCW/Firearm law than California is.


----------



## VentMedic (Sep 13, 2009)

Just remember that the time it takes to get your weapon from a concealed holster or locked box in the truck (yes these weapons should be secure) could be used against you.  The law may now view you as the aggressor if it is perceived that you had enough time to escape and get to safety.  The intent to do bodily harm to another individual may now become YOUR charge.   

Also, in each state you would have to be aware where you could not carry your weapon when you are on a call such as in a church or public arena.  Unless you are acting as  a  LEO, you would be breaking the law.  If you kept your weapon in a truck to where it could be found by a patient or passengers, you could be responsible for any actions committed by them in an unlawful act which could be harming/killing your partner or a bystander.   Carrying a weapon on a public/commercial vehicle  a very different set of responsibilities.  As well, just like LEOs who know they must protect that weapon during carry, you would also have to have the same training.  If word gets out that you are carrying, you become an easy mark and a target.  Your role in the eye of the public may also change as they would no longer see you as a health care provider but now as a law enforcement officer and someone's authority they can ch allege or withhold trust and information from.   Not everyone trusts LEOs and some people even hate them but most do allow health care workers into their space.  

It is still best to present yourself as a health care professional, become very aware of your surroundings or scene safety and avoid any situations that you do not feel safe in until LEO backup arrives.  Your purpose it to provide health care services and not go in armed with the intent of using your weapon.  That also would be a question asked of you in court. "Did you not know the scene was safe but yet you still went in AND while carrying a weapon for the purpose of using?"    It doesn't matter what you actually thought at the time but now that you carry a weapon, you have now established the fact you would use it which is the purpose of a conceal weapon.


----------



## VentMedic (Sep 13, 2009)

One more little point, as per most state statutes for a concealed weapon permit,  hospitals are no carry zones for weapons except for LEOs.  Regardless of who you work for, if your weapon is detected by the hospital's metal detectors, you will be detained, questioned and possibly charged as any other person who breaks the law.   Since you do enter hospitals often,  you might keep your gun in a locked box and must retrieve it from that box each time you believe to be in trouble.  If that is the position you have established with your weapon,  you have already had enough time to think the situation through and get away from trouble or call backup from the PD.


----------



## medichopeful (Sep 13, 2009)

DV_EMT said:


> If your gonna carry a gun while on duty... I say put it in an ankle holster because that way people dont know your carrying it.
> 
> My idea is...better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
> 
> ...



Problem with the ankle holster is that if you are bending down or kneeling, it may become visible.  And it may be easy for someone to grab if you are kneeling next to them while they are supine or prone.


----------



## medichopeful (Sep 13, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Your role in the eye of the public may also change as they would no longer see you as a health care provider but now as a law enforcement officer and someone's authority they can ch allege or withhold trust and information from.   Not everyone trusts LEOs and some people even hate them but most do allow health care workers into their space.



I was thinking something similar to this, but you beat me to it :sad:


----------



## Sasha (Sep 13, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Call me dumb again and you can go.......................
> 
> I would have more chance fighting back than just letting them shoot me.  So I'll take a 1 % chance over a 0% any day.
> 
> Not trying to change your opinion because many in EMS have no business carrying guns and sadly many of those have no business even being in EMS.



However, who is to say they were going to shoot you in the first place? People DO use guns to try and gain control of a situation and manipulate it to their favor with no intent to shoot. A mugger can hold you at gun point without shooting, someone robbing the local McDonalds can use a gun but not shoot.. as long as your cooperate with them. Making an agressive move like going for YOUR gun just sealed your fate, you're going to spook them into shooting. Going for your gun would escalate the situation, where you might've gotten out with no one getting hurt, you now have a dead or injured paramedic.

I also can't help but thinking that some people would get a bravery boost from knowing they have a gun on them and go into situations they regularly wouldn't without the 5-0.


----------



## medic417 (Sep 13, 2009)

Sasha said:


> However, who is to say they were going to shoot you in the first place? People DO use guns to try and gain control of a situation and manipulate it to their favor with no intent to shoot. A mugger can hold you at gun point without shooting, someone robbing the local McDonalds can use a gun but not shoot.. as long as your cooperate with them. Making an agressive move like going for YOUR gun just sealed your fate, you're going to spook them into shooting. Going for your gun would escalate the situation, where you might've gotten out with no one getting hurt, you now have a dead or injured paramedic.



Be quite rookie.

I would rather have a fighting chance than no chance at all.


----------



## Sasha (Sep 13, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Be quite rookie.
> 
> I would rather have a fighting chance than no chance at all.



I would rather avoid escalating the situation!


----------



## mycrofft (Sep 13, 2009)

*Like always, name calling and childish tactical fantasies.*

I think EMTLIFE has enough thread material about gunslinging and ought to institute it's own gun control.


----------



## medic417 (Sep 13, 2009)

Sasha said:


> I would rather avoid escalating the situation!



I would rather win $10,000,000.  Do I win?


----------



## DV_EMT (Sep 13, 2009)

Sasha said:


> However, who is to say they were going to shoot you in the first place? People DO use guns to try and gain control of a situation and manipulate it to their favor with no intent to shoot. A mugger can hold you at gun point without shooting, someone robbing the local McDonalds can use a gun but not shoot.



50/50 chance.... pull the trigger.... or don't. Frankly, I think any 5150 with a gun has a higher chance of pulling the trigger. Lets face it.... Mentally unstable with a weapon. I say you have the right as EMS to have a gun to defend yourself. If police arent on scene because the "nature of the call" was something different than what was expected... you should have the right to protect yourself. Kevlar and all that is great... but a shot to the femoral/neck/ or head and your screwed (thank god for a partner). I'd rather not risk the chance that, "they might not shoot"... cause what they can do is erratic and usually illogical.


----------



## DV_EMT (Sep 13, 2009)

medichopeful said:


> Problem with the ankle holster is that if you are bending down or kneeling, it may become visible.  And it may be easy for someone to grab if you are kneeling next to them while they are supine or prone.



2 words.... biometric safety


----------



## thatSPIKYflip (Sep 13, 2009)

Many of you say that a LEO (assumed off duty) acting as an EMT/paramedic would most likely not be allowed to perform duties of a LEO.

Aren't LEOs sworn officers at all times (24/7/365)? If a law is broken in their presence, no matter if they are on or off duty, don't they have the authority to detain them? If both questions are true, then doesn't said LEO have the authority to carry a firearm and act accordingly?


----------



## VentMedic (Sep 13, 2009)

DV_EMT said:


> 50/50 chance.... pull the trigger.... or don't. Frankly, *I think any 5150 with a gun has a higher chance of pulling the trigger.* Lets face it.... *Mentally unstable with a weapon.* I say you have the right as EMS to have a gun to defend yourself. If police arent on scene because the "nature of the call" was something different than what was expected... you should have the right to protect yourself. Kevlar and all that is great... but a shot to the femoral/neck/ or head and your screwed (thank god for a partner). I'd rather not risk the chance that, "they might not shoot"... cause what they can do is erratic and usually illogical.


 
If you know this patient is a 5150 or has been dispatched as a mentally unstable patient, you should already be requesting backup. An EMT or Paramedic in the state of Calfornia can not place someone on a 5150 hold or even call that person a "5150" until the paperwork is signed by the LEO or mental health practitioner. There is no reason for you to be approaching this person with a gun if you already know in advance what or who you are dealing with. As well, you could be approaching John Q Citizen who also has a concealed weapons permit and is defending himself against another threat by either that person or someone else. You could end up killing this person instead. Also, unlike what you see on TV where someone accurately shoots someone's gun out of their hand or just "wounds" them, if someone is attacking you, deadly force will be your intent. You are not going to mess around just aiming to knick them in the shin. If you have that much time, they should be looking at the tail lights of your ambulance and not down the barrel of your gun. 

Again in this situation you may be perceived as the aggressor if you know you are entering a dangerous situation and you know you have your weapon to use. 

Also, if LEOs all had the same attitudes as some on this thread about approaching every situation, there would be a lot of dead bodies around and cops in jail. This is why they receive the training they do with their firearm and how to approach various situations. They know what will happen to them if they pull the trigger of a gun either intentional or by mistake. Those who have no training in the use of deadly force or believe their very few hours at the gun range or concealed weapons class qualifies them at determining which situation they can handle on their own with their gun will be the ones who are most likely to do harm to innocent bystanders including their own partner. 




> Many of you say that a LEO (assumed off duty) acting as an EMT/paramedic would most likely not be allowed to perform duties of a LEO.
> 
> Aren't LEOs sworn officers at all times (24/7/365)? If a law is broken in their presence, no matter if they are on or off duty, don't they have the authority to detain them? If both questions are true, then doesn't said LEO have the authority to carry a firearm and act accordingly?


 
As for this situation, that would dependent entirely upon the state and local regulations. This is why PDs want to know where people are moonlighting so there may not be any conflict in their sworn duties. We have had LEOs work for private ambulances and even in hospitals as EMT(P)s and RNs but were specifically told they were not to carry their weapon. Both of the employers and the employee were aware and agreed to those terms. If it is still within the realm of Public Safety and it is again known to all parties, then it may be permissable. I also do not agree that LEOs or those with concealed weapon permits should carry their weapons at all times which includes into bars or any public outing where there is a potential for intoxication.


----------



## Sasha (Sep 13, 2009)

medic417 said:


> I would rather win $10,000,000.  Do I win?



Only if you promise to split it with me.


----------



## Sasha (Sep 13, 2009)

DV_EMT said:


> 50/50 chance.... pull the trigger.... or don't. Frankly, I think any 5150 with a gun has a higher chance of pulling the trigger. Lets face it.... Mentally unstable with a weapon. I say you have the right as EMS to have a gun to defend yourself. If police arent on scene because the "nature of the call" was something different than what was expected... you should have the right to protect yourself. Kevlar and all that is great... but a shot to the femoral/neck/ or head and your screwed (thank god for a partner). I'd rather not risk the chance that, "they might not shoot"... cause what they can do is erratic and usually illogical.



If they are truly behaving erratically, what the heck are you doing there without police?

Sorry, I still believe the time you waste trying to pull out your gun and shoot is time that can be used escaping the situation, and it also will provoke someone into firing their weapon or stabbing you with their knife or fork or what have you. Your ankle holster, you will have to bend to reach it, pull it out from behind your pants leg, bring it up, (hopefully disengage the safety) and pull the trigger.

I pray to god none of my partners are ever like some on this thread, they will end up getting us both killed should a firearm situation ever arise.


----------



## DV_EMT (Sep 13, 2009)

vent... you bring up a good point.... but what if its a bogus call and you arrive to what you think is a idk... broken leg... only to be met by a gun weilding psychopath with a history of drug abuse... your pretty much outta luck then? point black with a gun at you... meanwhile your partner could be either requesting backup... 2-5 minutes waiting... or shoot the guy with a concealed weapon and then treat him for a GSW... ?


----------



## Sasha (Sep 13, 2009)

DV_EMT said:


> vent... you bring up a good point.... but what if its a bogus call and you arrive to what you think is a idk... broken leg... only to be met by a gun weilding psychopath with a history of drug abuse... your pretty much outta luck then? point black with a gun at you... meanwhile your partner could be either requesting backup... 2-5 minutes waiting... or shoot the guy with a concealed weapon and then treat him for a GSW... ?



Treat YOU for a GSW you mean. He already has his gun out and pointed and you think you're going to outshoot him??


----------



## DV_EMT (Sep 13, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Treat YOU for a GSW you mean. He already has his gun out and pointed and you think you're going to outshoot him??



no... if your partner goes in and is held up at point blank and you see that from a distance (because your getting equptment or whatever)... you could wait it out and hope to dear god that LEO's show up quick... or... take matters into your own hands.. try to sharpshoot the guy who has your partner at gunpoint.

I was taught with regard to scene safety is 1. yourself 2. your partner and 3. your pt. So I'm pretty sure that trying to save your partner by shooting the pt. follows the rules of scene safety (even though the scene wasnt safe to begin with)


----------



## Cory (Sep 13, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Treat YOU for a GSW you mean. He already has his gun out and pointed and you think you're going to outshoot him??



EXACTLY!!! 

To be honest, in most situations where putting up your hands doesn't stop the shooter, then you don't really have a chance anyway. Sad, but true.


----------



## Cory (Sep 13, 2009)

DV_EMT said:


> no... if your partner goes in and is held up at point blank and you see that from a distance (because your getting equptment or whatever)... you could wait it out and hope to dear god that LEO's show up quick... or... take matters into your own hands.. try to sharpshoot the guy who has your partner at gunpoint.
> 
> I was taught with regard to scene safety is 1. yourself 2. your partner and 3. your pt. So I'm pretty sure that trying to save your partner by shooting the pt. follows the rules of scene safety (even though the scene wasnt safe to begin with)



Who is to say you can aim well? Who is to say you will be able to get to him? Don't you think the shooter will have already thought about you?

I would be more worried that I would miss, and he would end up shooting your partner out of fear. Or that I would miss and fire into my partner.

This is when you wait for LEO. Terrible things happen, and not much can be done to maake them better. But there are ebdless possiblities for what could make it worse, and pulling a gun is one of those.


----------



## DV_EMT (Sep 13, 2009)

Cory said:


> This is when you wait for LEO. Terrible things happen, and not much can be done to maake them better. But there are ebdless possiblities for what could make it worse, and pulling a gun is one of those.




true... there are a lot of ifs/ands/buts... I just am playing devils advocate and seeing what other people think about the situation. If it were me I'd get good cover and try to save my partner (i know i have a good shot). I mean... it may sound moronic and/or dangerous to some... but If i knew I had a chance to save my partner... i'd do it (in the safest way I knew possible.)


----------



## Sasha (Sep 13, 2009)

DV_EMT said:


> no... if your partner goes in and is held up at point blank and you see that from a distance (because your getting equptment or whatever)... you could wait it out and hope to dear god that LEO's show up quick... or... take matters into your own hands.. try to sharpshoot the guy who has your partner at gunpoint.
> 
> I was taught with regard to scene safety is 1. yourself 2. your partner and 3. your pt. So I'm pretty sure that trying to save your partner by shooting the pt. follows the rules of scene safety (even though the scene wasnt safe to begin with)



What movie did you see that in? You do know when you are "held up" the best thing to do is cooperate amd give them what they want right? You will also go to jail for it. No where in any defense class o textbook are you told to shoot your patient. In your scenario you have the option of getting out of dodge.


----------



## Cory (Sep 13, 2009)

DV_EMT said:


> true... there are a lot of ifs/ands/buts... I just am playing devils advocate and seeing what other people think about the situation. If it were me I'd get good cover and try to save my partner (i know i have a good shot). I mean... it may sound moronic and/or dangerous to some... but If i knew I had a chance to save my partner... i'd do it (in the safest way I knew possible.)



And if ANYTHING goes wrong, be prepared to be tried at the full extent of the law. Just because you are in public safety does not mean you will be treated like an LEO, you have no more legality to shoot than any civillian.

I would never own a gun because I simply believe that I wouldn't be able to outshoot someone with a gun already drawn, and if I shot anyone who didn't already have a gun to my head I would have n defense in court. It is a lose lose situatuion, and it would be even worse in my mind to walk around claiming myself a medical professional who carries a gun.


----------



## DV_EMT (Sep 13, 2009)

Sasha said:


> *What movie did you see that in?* You do know when you are "held up" the best thing to do is* cooperate and give them what they want right?* You will also go to jail for it. No where in any defense class o textbook are you told to shoot your patient. In *your scenario you have the option of getting out of dodge.*



1.Mother, Jugs, and Speed.... greatest movie ever

2. The EMT that was at gunpoint was compliant... he got shot with a12 gauge.

3. As for the getting out of dodge... what would you do? leave your partner for dead?? or try and keep it to 1 patient.. the crazed drug addict with a GSW?


----------



## medic417 (Sep 13, 2009)

It is obvious those that are not familiar with and educated in proper use of firearms.  So no point to what if this.  If you are content to be defenseless I'm happy for you.  If you choose to be able to defend yourself I am happy for you.  There now lets all hold hands and sing some stupid song.


----------



## Cory (Sep 13, 2009)

You shoulodn't be worried about packing heat on call, you should be worried about the pt.


----------



## Shishkabob (Sep 13, 2009)

Cory said:


> You shoulodn't be worried about packing heat on call, you should be worried about the pt.



I'm more worried for my life than my patients life.  Every. Single. Time.


----------



## DV_EMT (Sep 13, 2009)

medic417 said:


> *It is obvious those that are not familiar with and educated in proper use of firearms*.  So no point to what if this.  If you are content to be defenseless I'm happy for you.  If you choose to be able to defend yourself I am happy for you.  *There now lets all hold hands and sing some stupid song.*




I've been shooting and hunting since I was 16. Trust me. I know firearms and proper safety/use. Not trying to start a fight... merely making a statement to your "judgement" of my knowledge of firearms and their safety/storage.

anyhow... good topic and good responses everyone. I like getting everyones point of view based on this senario.


----------



## medic417 (Sep 13, 2009)

DV_EMT said:


> I've been shooting and hunting since I was 16. Trust me. I know firearms and proper safety/use. Not trying to start a fight... merely making a statement to your "judgement" of my knowledge of firearms and their safety/storage.
> 
> anyhow... good topic and good responses everyone. I like getting everyones point of view based on this senario.



UMM was not referring to people that are in favor of the educated having concealed carry.  Remember I am for concealed carry.  

As to age I got my first real firearm when I was 4 or 5 put dinner on the table with it shortly after.


----------



## medichopeful (Sep 13, 2009)

medic417 said:


> UMM was not referring to people that are in favor of the educated having concealed carry.  Remember I am for concealed carry.
> 
> As to age I got my first real firearm when I was 4 or 5 put dinner on the table with it shortly after.



Remind me not to piss you off h34r:


----------



## DV_EMT (Sep 13, 2009)

medic417 said:


> As to age I got my first real firearm when I was 4 or 5 put dinner on the table with it shortly after.




right... i was making the point that I'm by no means undereducated in using a firearm. thats all


----------



## medic417 (Sep 13, 2009)

DV_EMT said:


> right... i was making the point that I'm by no means undereducated in using a firearm. thats all



But you took offense like I was saying you were not educated with a firearm.


----------



## Akulahawk (Sep 13, 2009)

Defensive use of a firearm is VERY different from use of a firearm for putting dinner on the plate, or for recreational shooting. Realistically speaking, done right, a weapon that is concealed correctly is very quickly accessible and won't be detected until you need it, and with practice, all you'll need is about 1.5 seconds...

You have to be absolutely aware of your state and local laws regarding firearms and certain types of properties. In California, with a CCW, you can carry into a Hospital... if you're "made", they can ask you to leave. If you do NOT leave, you can be charged with trespassing. Period. Bars are a bit of a gray area. Best idea is not to... In some states, those 51% signs signify where you may not go armed. However, someone carrying on the LEOSA can legally ignore those signs, unless the private property is also posted "no firearms".

There's a LOT more to this. 

As to shooting your patient... if my patient presents a threat of Great Bodily Injury/Lethal Force to me... I will stop that threat. That's my safety. I will not go to jail. I will not be charged with a crime. I MIGHT, however, eventually have to defend myself in civil court. Some states require that you retreat/exercise escape options before shooting... and they recognize that situations do develop where that is NOT possible. California does NOT have such a law. I am not required to retreat. I also have no civil immunity for any justified shoots. 

Yes, I do know the law, especially is it pertains to this issue. 

Whether or not you choose to be armed, is up to you. And in California, it can also be up to your Sheriff and you, if you choose to carry legally.


----------



## medic417 (Sep 13, 2009)

Sasha heres one so pretty and pink even you would want to carry it.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/54613


----------



## VentMedic (Sep 13, 2009)

DV_EMT said:


> vent... you bring up a good point.... but what if its a bogus call and you arrive to what you think is a idk... broken leg... only to be met by a gun weilding psychopath with a history of drug abuse... your pretty much outta luck then? point black with a gun at you... meanwhile your partner could be either requesting backup... 2-5 minutes waiting... or shoot the guy with a concealed weapon and then treat him for a GSW... ?


 
This isn't the old western movies where you outdraw a patient. If they have a gun pointed at you, you had better come up with another alternative because if they want you dead, you will be dead. You won't be able to bend down and at them to wait while you get your weapon out of your ankle holster. If your partner is nearby, that will probably be the one shot by either you or the patient because YOU started making erractic and threatening movements. 

I have been in these situations before and probably the one thing that saved me was the fact that I was unarmed and posed no threat. I've had partners who have acted like an idiot and have gotten the crap beat out of them. Personally, I even thought it to be justified because I would have beaten them later for putting me into such a situation by their cockiness of taking on a gang. 

Honestly if you think being a Paramedic is about shooting someone, get into law enforcement instead. Even those in law enforcement do not charge into a situation such as some of you are describing with the intent on killing the person. Maybe instead of taking A class for a concealed weapons permit some should take a refresher on scene safety or DT4EMS's training program. 




> As to shooting your patient... if my patient presents a threat of Great Bodily Injury/Lethal Force to me... I will stop that threat. That's my safety. I will not go to jail. I will not be charged with a crime. I MIGHT, however, eventually have to defend myself in civil court. Some states require that you retreat/exercise escape options before shooting... and they recognize that situations do develop where that is NOT possible. California does NOT have such a law. I am not required to retreat. I also have no civil immunity for any justified shoots.


 
Don't be so sure as you will have to prove the threat existed. Even cops go to jail for what many believe to be a justified shooting. If you mistook a candy cane to be a gun and shot someone, you would be almost guaranteed housing in CA's prison system for a very long time. As well, you family would be the ones bearing the burdens of your mistake.

If you have been following the BART LEO case in Oakland, you can see how one mistake can kill another person and ruin not only this cop's career and life, as he will probably spend many years in prison, but also his family's lives.   His fiance would be really smart if she just took the baby away and cut her losses from this guy even though most believe the shooting was "just a mistake".  It still doesn't "justify" the shooting and taking a life in this situation.  And, this is with LEO training.


----------



## Shishkabob (Sep 13, 2009)

Yay for Texas castle doctrine.


----------



## Cory (Sep 13, 2009)

*must hold back urge to argue all the clearly wrong points of the Texas castle doctorine*


----------



## Shishkabob (Sep 13, 2009)

Oh no please, go ahead. I want to see what you believe the castle doctrine entails... The less googling for info the better.


----------



## Sasha (Sep 13, 2009)

DV_EMT said:


> 1.Mother, Jugs, and Speed.... greatest movie ever
> 
> 2. The EMT that was at gunpoint was compliant... he got shot with a12 gauge.
> 
> 3. As for the getting out of dodge... what would you do? leave your partner for dead?? or try and keep it to 1 patient.. the crazed drug addict with a GSW?



I'm going to say this in the nicest way I possibly can, to get the point across....

THAT WAS A MOVIE. Do you really think it plays out like that in real life??? No sir. While I have not been personally held up yet, thank god, I have been a supervisor of a fastfood establishment that got robbed at gun point by two assailaints. The employee who grabbed the knife? Pistol whipped and had the heck beat out of him, the employee who remained calm, opened the registers and safe and gave the robbers what they want? Unharmed. Shaken up, without a cell phone, but unharmed.

I am friends with a couple police officers, they have all told me the same thing, do NOT make sudden movements, do not act agressively, give them what they want. They want drugs? Here's key to the drug box, heck, you can have keys to the entire ambulance if that is what you want!

And if it came down to that, yes, I would leave my partner. You are forgetting the number one thing of scene safety... YOUR safety. My safety depends on me getting away from the threat, not trying to confront it. One dead EMT is better than two dead EMTs. 

Thank god where I work you are not allowed to have weapons on shift, if I ever worked at a place that did allow weapons, I would find out who is carrying and refuse to work with them.


----------



## Sasha (Sep 13, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Sasha heres one so pretty and pink even you would want to carry it.
> 
> http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/54613



Oooh. Pretty. It will match my taser thingy.


----------



## DV_EMT (Sep 13, 2009)

Akulahawk... thank you for that post. It summarized up all the important info I would have spent lots of time researching.

Vent...yes... this isnt a western. and no... I have no thoughts about going in to Law Enforcement just because most of their time is spent either writing tickets or sitting in court. If i wanted shooting and action... i woulda gone into the military... but no... being a medic is what I want to do. I can shoot recreationally at other times to get my fill

Sasha... Yes you bring up some good points, and I sure as hell would glady give up my keys to an ambulance/drug box/ any of the above... but I guarentee you that if you were to stay calm and try your luck, I think you might be surprised at the outcome (for the better). I'd rather it be 1 dead crazy drug addict than both EMT's. Just because your compliant... doesn't necessarilly mean that your free of any harm. if your unarmed and you think that the crazed drug seeking gunman is just going to take the drugs and run... think again. people are illogical and make dumb decisions... just know that the playing field is a little more even when you too are armed.


----------



## medic417 (Sep 13, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Oooh. Pretty. It will match my taser thingy.



I knew you would like it.


----------



## ffemt8978 (Sep 13, 2009)

Sasha said:


> I'm going to say this in the nicest way I possibly can, to get the point across....
> 
> THAT WAS A MOVIE. Do you really think it plays out like that in real life??? No sir. While I have not been personally held up yet, thank god, I have been a supervisor of a fastfood establishment that got robbed at gun point by two assailaints. The employee who grabbed the knife? Pistol whipped and had the heck beat out of him, the employee who remained calm, opened the registers and safe and gave the robbers what they want? Unharmed. Shaken up, without a cell phone, but unharmed.


  Yes, it does happen in real life.  Take a look at some of these threads:
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=12211
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=11109
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=10825
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=8468
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=7808
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=6581
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=3171
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=1559

It even happens in countries where guns are supposed to be banned - http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=10089

How many more people must be shot, killed, or injured before you realize that sometimes cooperation is not always the best policy?



> I am friends with a couple police officers, they have all told me the same thing, do NOT make sudden movements, do not act agressively, give them what they want. They want drugs? Here's key to the drug box, heck, you can have keys to the entire ambulance if that is what you want!


  And what do you do if they want your life or something else from you?



> And if it came down to that, yes, I would leave my partner. You are forgetting the number one thing of scene safety... YOUR safety. My safety depends on me getting away from the threat, not trying to confront it. One dead EMT is better than two dead EMTs.
> 
> Thank god where I work you are not allowed to have weapons on shift, if I ever worked at a place that did allow weapons, I would find out who is carrying and refuse to work with them.



That is your personal choice...but I'm curious as to how you think you could find out they are carrying?


----------



## Akulahawk (Sep 13, 2009)

I'll put my responses in line so that my responses to what can be clearly seen.


VentMedic said:


> This isn't the old western movies where you outdraw a patient. If they have a gun pointed at you, you had better come up with another alternative because if they want you dead, you will be dead. You won't be able to bend down and at them to wait while you get your weapon out of your ankle holster. If your partner is nearby, that will probably be the one shot by either you or the patient because YOU started making erractic and threatening movements.
> You'll never be able to out-draw a weapon that is already drawn. Ankle holsters are too slow. You survive by staying calm and moving with purpose. You do not pose a threat.
> I have been in these situations before and probably the one thing that saved me was the fact that I was unarmed and posed no threat. I've had partners who have acted like an idiot and have gotten the crap beat out of them. Personally, I even thought it to be justified because I would have beaten them later for putting me into such a situation by their cockiness of taking on a gang.
> Your partners who acted like an idiot probably weren't appropriately trained for the situation... and they chose poorly for the situation. You don't want to choose the wrong solution...
> ...


The guy in the BART case is going spend a VERY long time in prison because he committed (at the very least) manslaughter. He drew his service weapon and shot a restrained person. There is a reason why LEO's tazers are often put in holsters on the opposite side of a firearm and when they do that, they're trained to use the "weak" hand to discharge the tazer. Though I believe that the officer didn't intend to shoot the guy, I fully believe that he committed negligent homicide. Murder, no. No intent to kill.


Sasha said:


> I'm going to say this in the nicest way I possibly can, to get the point across....
> 
> THAT WAS A MOVIE. Do you really think it plays out like that in real life??? No sir. While I have not been personally held up yet, thank god, I have been a supervisor of a fastfood establishment that got robbed at gun point by two assailaints. The employee who grabbed the knife? Pistol whipped and had the heck beat out of him, the employee who remained calm, opened the registers and safe and gave the robbers what they want? Unharmed. Shaken up, without a cell phone, but unharmed.
> 
> ...


----------



## Akulahawk (Sep 13, 2009)

You're welcome, DV EMT. Please do recognize that my posts in this matter come from, many hours of learning these issues.


----------



## Sasha (Sep 13, 2009)

> How many more people must be shot, killed, or injured before you realize that sometimes cooperation is not always the best policy?



More than a couple of those articles are no longer available. However, where would adding a concealed weapon in those situations would've remedied the situation or prvodied a better outcome??

Also the ones that were still available to be read did not happen like the situation described by DV EMT out of Mother, Jugs, and Speed. 

They can't trust EMTs to handle a glucometer correctly, and you want to arm them? How many do you think would get an extra courage boost and charge into situations they wouldn't have before without the knowledge that they have a gun hidden on their person?

The person already has a gun on you, you're behind the ball, and you are going to draw and shoot before they pull the trigger? 

Good luck, cowboy.


----------



## medic417 (Sep 13, 2009)

Sasha said:


> The person already has a gun on you, you're behind the ball, and you are going to draw and shoot before they pull the trigger?
> 
> Good luck, cowboy.



LOL.  Even though I live in the wild west we normally don't have wild west TV style fast draws at high noon.  

Actually in most cases you are going to duck and hope they miss which most shooters do when firing at a moving target.  Draw your firearm.  Remain under cover and only use your firearm if they then advance to finish the job.  At this point they do not know you are armed so you now have the advantage as they think you are a sitting duck.  They will probably boldly approach and not be prepared thus allowing you time to draw a bead and fire multiple times.

Yes I have LE experience.  And yes I do not think all EMS people should be able to carry but again most of the ones that I would not allow to carry I would also like to see out of EMS.  I have no problem with a person deciding they will not carry, that is their choice to decide just as it is the choice to carry by those of us that are educated in the use of firearms in self defense.


----------



## VentMedic (Sep 13, 2009)

ffemt8978 said:


> That is your personal choice...but I'm curious as to how you think you could find out they are carrying?


 
In my area that would be very easy when the LEOs arrest him/her at the entrance of the hospital when attempting to pass through the metal detector.   We take this very seriously.   We were not allowed to carry even during the riots although that is not to say we didn't have alternative weapons in mind but with the reasonable protection we received from LEOs and the Guard during that time, I did not feel the need to shoot someone.   

You can also surf up the incidents in CA that have occured recently where weapons were brought into the hospital to where others were attacked.  Unfortunately, in couple of the incidents the weapons were taken from LEOs by the criminals.  So when a trained person gets their weapon taken from them in a fairly controlled setting, imagine what would happen to an EMT(P) who just has a carrying permit class for "training".   You can also surf up a few incidents where healthcare professionals, including EMTs, who have used guns on others to kill them for personal reasons and not for protection.    Also, if you look up the stats, there are actually more incidents of violence against healthcare workers that occur within the walls of the hospital than against those in EMS.  

Using a few tragic incidents as an example for those poorly trained to carry weapons on an ambulance is just not the correct way of justifying the use of deadly force by EMT(P)s.  There is no way a concealed weapons class prepares on to aggressively use deadly force as part of their job.   When you are carrying that weapon on the job with the intent of using deadly force and not just for personal protection as a layperson, you do change the perception of the courts when you do kill someone as "part of your job".  

I would also bet that those wanting to carry weapons probably work in a low crime area and have not seen what a gun can do or have only been faced with a "violent" situation from their sofa while watching it on TV.   In real life you learn to respect weapons. You learn the resources in your area and how to identify bad situations.  You learn about human behavior and watch for signs.  You are not afraid to ask for backup.  You learn when to keep your mouth shut and retreat instead of being a bad arse wanting to confront someone headon at scene for a cool "take down".  The one thing carrying a weapon might do is make you more cocky to go into situations you shouldn't without backup.   That will only get you and/or your partner dead.    

There are many, many more EMT(P)s killed in ambulance accidents than there are by firearms.  Yet, few feel it is their right to ask their employer for safer equipment, better training or want to rat on their drunk partners.   Why isn't there more passion in that topic?  Probably because carrying a gun is romanticized and glamourized by the movies and it gives one "empowerment".


----------



## medic417 (Sep 13, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> In my area that would be very easy when the LEOs arrest him/her at the entrance of the hospital when attempting to pass through the metal detector.   .



Actually not a problem.  Have lock boxes for each person front and back for personal items.  Once at hospital lock it away.  It can be done w.o drawing attn.  I am in and out of our lock cabinets all day so my partner would never know.


----------



## Akulahawk (Sep 13, 2009)

Sasha said:


> More than a couple of those articles are no longer available. However, where would adding a concealed weapon in those situations would've remedied the situation or prvodied a better outcome??
> 
> Also the ones that were still available to be read did not happen like the situation described by DV EMT out of Mother, Jugs, and Speed.
> 
> ...


 Sasha, appropriate firearms training is like EMS training. Just as you wouldn't trust an EMT with a glucometer, I wouldn't trust someone with a firearm... without knowing their level of training. The people that choose to carry a firearm do so for their own protection. They know they're not cops and they know that they shouldn't go places armed that they shouldn't go unarmed. As to your assertion that someone would be dumb enough to attempt to out-draw someone with an already drawn weapon... In my case, I know it takes about 1.5 seconds for me to draw and shoot. If I don't have that much time, my weapon stays in it's holster. Within a certain distance, I can move fast enough to get ahead of your OODA loop and relieve YOU of your firearm. It's not some kind of Bruce Lee/Steven Segal thing... If I have to commit to doing that, it means that I'm in a situation where my choices are simple. Do something and perhaps live or do nothing and die. It's a survival choice. Nothing more than that.


----------



## VentMedic (Sep 13, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Actually not a problem. Have lock boxes for each person front and back for personal items. Once at hospital lock it away. It can be done w.o drawing attn. I am in and out of our lock cabinets all day so my partner would never know.


 
Actually, once the weapon and person is detained, their employers are notified as their policies clearly state "NO guns".   One hospital I worked at did have a special locker for employees to put their weapons in when commuting through the riot areas.  That was over 20 years ago.   While there is still violence, people have not felt the need to carry a weapon to work even if they still keep it in their house for protection.  I rarely care mine in the car but still keep a couple of weapons at home.  I am not anti-gun but I have seen what EMS attracks and there is no way I want those who already have a whacker view of this profession now joining just for the chance to carry a gun to be really cool.  Or, joining the local EMT class because the Police Academy tossed them out.


----------



## medic417 (Sep 13, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Actually, once the weapon and person is detained, their employers are notified as their policies clearly state "NO guns".   One hospital I worked at did have a special locker for employees to put their weapons in when commuting through the riot areas.  That was over 20 years ago.   While there is still violence, people have not felt the need to carry a weapon to work even if they still keep it in their house for protection.  I rarely care mine in the car but still keep a couple of weapons at home.  I am not anti-gun but I have seen what EMS attracks and there is no way I want those who already have a whacker view of this profession now joining just for the chance to carry a gun to be really cool.  Or, joining the local EMT class because the Police Academy tossed them out.



Actually lock boxes I mention are in the ambulance so gun never enters hospital.  

And again I agree that many in EMS should not have the ability to even own a gun much less carry, but those are also the same people that if we were a real profession would be weeded out.


----------



## Akulahawk (Sep 13, 2009)

VentMedic... someone in EMS who carries as part of their job would likely be trained as a LEO. Someone in EMS who carries for their own personal protection... will be carrying for their own personal protection. Also, while a search can be done to show that healthcare workers can (and have) used firearms to kill for their own personal reasons, the same can be said for cops, firefighters, lawyers, and... regular people. 

I'm not suggesting that EMS carry on the job. That's something completely different... and generally in the realm of the Tactical Medic.


----------



## HotelCo (Sep 13, 2009)

ffemt8978 said:


> And what do you do if they want your life or something else from you?



What DO you do? If they want your life, they want your life. They can pull the trigger a lot faster than you can draw your weapon, turn the safety off, and fire.


----------



## Akulahawk (Sep 13, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Actually lock boxes I mention are in the ambulance so gun never enters hospital.
> 
> And again I agree that many in EMS should not have the ability to even own a gun much less carry, but those are also the same people that if we were a real profession would be weeded out.


Fortunately or unfortuately, YOU don't get that choice. As much as I feel that certain people shouldn't be able to own firearms (and I'm not just refering to criminals), in most states, doing that expressly violates the State Constitution. That's just the way it is. 


VentMedic said:


> Actually, once the weapon and person is detained, their employers are notified as their policies clearly state "NO guns". One hospital I worked at did have a special locker for employees to put their weapons in when commuting through the riot areas. That was over 20 years ago. While there is still violence, people have not felt the need to carry a weapon to work even if they still keep it in their house for protection. I rarely care mine in the car but still keep a couple of weapons at home. I am not anti-gun but I have seen what EMS attracks and there is no way I want those who already have a whacker view of this profession now joining just for the chance to carry a gun to be really cool. Or, joining the local EMT class because the Police Academy tossed them out.


 EMS, in general, should NOT be an armed service, as the military and police servcies are. All I'm saying is that should someone wish to carry to protect themselves, they should be allowed to do so. I believe that if you want to carry as part of your job and derive your authorization to carry as part of your job... you should become a LEO. Oh, and there are plenty of whackers in Law Enforcement too...

The ONLY exception to this would be those medics that are part of a SWAT team... and those folks should be as well trained in firearm use as the rest of the team. It's far cheaper and easier to train a medic for that than it is to train a cop to be a medic.


----------



## Akulahawk (Sep 13, 2009)

HotelCo said:


> What DO you do? If they want your life, they want your life. They can pull the trigger a lot faster than you can draw your weapon, turn the safety off, and fire.


 Which is also why one should also seek out unarmed combat training. I don't mean McDojo training. People who have actually taken appropriate training recognize the time difference. The Tueller drill is spectacularly useful in this regard...


----------



## DV_EMT (Sep 13, 2009)

I believe that any person that belongs to an orginization that deals with the public on a daily basis should have the right to have a weapon... near or on them. look at mini mart clerks... most have shotguns... or how bout cabbies... they have pistols. All I'm saying is that EMS deals with a variety of people on a daily basis... and I think that they should be able to have a form of self defense that works best for them... be it a tazer, pepper spray, gun, or big club with nails in it. 

and to weed out those whackers with a desire to idolize and misuse guns.... there is an extensive background check that is run for a concealed weapons licence... I know for fact that they don't just give them out like candy in Ca. I'd be a good canidate for one actually as I work in a pharmacy and have access to a Multitude of Various Benzos/Uppers/ and the such.... If anyone was a target... itd be me (hence my passion of the topic)


----------



## EMTecBOB (Sep 13, 2009)

> DO NOT TRY TO TAKE ON SOMEBODY WITH A KNIFE IF YOU ARE NOT ARMED AND TRAINED.



Even then it is not a good idea. There is an old saying that says the winner of a knife fight usually dies the next day in the hospital.


----------



## Jon (Sep 13, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> One more little point, as per most state statutes for a concealed weapon permit,  hospitals are no carry zones for weapons except for LEOs.  Regardless of who you work for, if your weapon is detected by the hospital's metal detectors, you will be detained, questioned and possibly charged as any other person who breaks the law.   Since you do enter hospitals often,  you might keep your gun in a locked box and must retrieve it from that box each time you believe to be in trouble.  If that is the position you have established with your weapon,  you have already had enough time to think the situation through and get away from trouble or call backup from the PD.


Vent: I'm not sure about "most states" - I only pay attention to the laws I need to follow.

PA has no such requirement
VA has no such requirement
FL bars weapons from "mental health treatment areas" - but hospitals are a gray area.


----------



## medichopeful (Sep 13, 2009)

EMTecBOB said:


> Even then it is not a good idea. There is an old saying that says the winner of a knife fight usually dies the next day in the hospital.



I think you might have misunderstood what I meant.  The only time somebody should take on somebody with a knife is when they have a gun or, better yet, a partner with a Taser (one goes less-lethal, but if that doesn't work, the other one can use lethal force).  They should not just get near them and try to tackle them or anything like that.  They should get adequate cover, and keep the person at gunpoint.  They should NOT go near to the assailant until either they drop the knife, are incapacitated, or are killed.  

If they do what you say (and nobody ever goes up against somebody with a knife), then we would have a serious problem.  What would the police do if there was somebody brandishing a weapon?  Do nothing?  No.  They would have to face-off against that person, and sense they are both armed and trained, they are the best option.


----------



## Jon (Sep 13, 2009)

medic417 said:


> LOL.  Even though I live in the wild west we normally don't have wild west TV style fast draws at high noon.
> 
> Actually in most cases you are going to duck and hope they miss which most shooters do when firing at a moving target.  Draw your firearm.  Remain under cover and only use your firearm if they then advance to finish the job.  At this point they do not know you are armed so you now have the advantage as they think you are a sitting duck.  They will probably boldly approach and not be prepared thus allowing you time to draw a bead and fire multiple times.
> 
> Yes I have LE experience.  And yes I do not think all EMS people should be able to carry but again most of the ones that I would not allow to carry I would also like to see out of EMS.  I have no problem with a person deciding they will not carry, that is their choice to decide just as it is the choice to carry by those of us that are educated in the use of firearms in self defense.


Well said.

Unfortunatly, my state's EMS office does not allow me this freedom of choice - even though the Commonwealth of PA's Constitution says "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be questioned".


----------



## medic417 (Sep 13, 2009)

Jon said:


> Well said.
> 
> Unfortunatly, my state's EMS office does not allow me this freedom of choice - even though the Commonwealth of PA's Constitution says "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be questioned".



Well rest easy as if you are killed your family can get rich suing because you were denied the right to defend yourself in violation of the Constitution.  Plus negligence in failing to provide protection since personal defense was prohibited and they failed to send people to defend you.


----------



## VentMedic (Sep 13, 2009)

Jon said:


> Vent: I'm not sure about "most states" - I only pay attention to the laws I need to follow.
> 
> PA has no such requirement
> VA has no such requirement
> FL bars weapons from "mental health treatment areas" - but hospitals are a gray area.


 
If you look up the concealed weapon carry acts in any of these states you will find the wording pretty much the same for what places that do not allow guns.  As well, even in Texas, a private place of business can bar weapons from their establishment or any property owned by them.    What you may be referring to is for LEO which are required to put their weapons in a lock box at a security desk for mental health and locked units.   However, we do have LEOs who carry in our hospitals but no one else is authorized to carry especially citizens (including EMTs) with a concealed weapon permit.


----------



## VentMedic (Sep 13, 2009)

Akulahawk said:


> VentMedic... someone in EMS who carries as part of their job would likely be trained as a LEO. Someone in EMS who carries for their own personal protection... will be carrying for their own personal protection. Also, while a search can be done to show that healthcare workers can (and have) used firearms to kill for their own personal reasons, the same can be said for cops, firefighters, lawyers, and... regular people.
> 
> *I'm not suggesting that EMS carry on the job. That's something completely different... and generally in the realm of the Tactical Medic*.


 
This whole thread has been about EMTs carrying guns on ambulances.  These are also some of the same who believe Firefighting and EMS are two different fields.  How many are willing to go through the additional training of the LEO academy and regularly qualify on the range when for some maintaining a CPR card is a stretch?


----------



## Jon (Sep 13, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> If you look up the concealed weapon carry acts in any of these states you will find the wording pretty much the same for what places that do not allow guns.  As well, even in Texas, a private place of business can bar weapons from their establishment or any property owned by them.    What you may be referring to is for LEO which are required to put their weapons in a lock box at a security desk for mental health and locked units.   However, we do have LEOs who carry in our hospitals but no one else is authorized to carry especially citizens (including EMTs) with a concealed weapon permit.



Vent - I worked in a PA hospital, in the Security department. While we did not have a locked psych unit, it was a daily occurrence to have at LEAST one involuntary psych hold sitting in the ED waiting for a transfer to an inpatient facility, or to sober up before transfer, etc.

In PA, aside from a VERY few places (Courtrooms, Jails, and a handful of other places) - a citizen with a valid license to carry can carry anywhere.

By policy, weapons were not permitted in the hospital (I think PD was exempted, and we liked them, anyway). Legally, though, IF it were to come to our attention that a non-patient had a firearm on the property, etc... we could do nothing more than ask them to leave, and give them a warning that they were trespassing (because they failed to follow our rules). If they refused to leave, we could then call the PD... only crime they could be charged with though, was trespass. 

In reality, we would either offer to secure the firearm in our property safe, or ask that it be secured in their vehicle or elsewhere, and not on their person. If they pushed back, then we went the other route.


----------



## Jon (Sep 13, 2009)

Cory said:


> Just doesn't look right...



Whats wrong? That they have to wear body armor and Kevlar helmets so they are safe to treat Grandma?

If you have never been to Israel - let me educate you here a bit: If you are permitted to own and carry a firearm - you do that. Almost everywhere. No one really gets upset about them - it is a way of life there. You'll even see some men wearing them on the Sabbath (I can discuss the religious law and "loopholes" if you want to PM me)

It is a VERY safe country. When bad things DO happen, they are often stopped very early by alert security personnel or private citizens that are lawfully carrying - and using - firearms.

As far as I have been able to tell - MDA (Magen David Adom - Red Star of David) doesn't have any prohibitions on their members carrying lawfully owned firearms, at least within Israel. I'm sure they have to follow different rules when they are displaying the "Red Crystal" in place of or with the Magen David Adom, especially on international relief missions.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Also - someone made the comment of an ankle holster as the only way to carry concealed in uniform.

Ankle holsters have a lot of negatives to them, and some positives.

I once did an experiment when I worked Security - we were trained as armed guards, but unarmed. I had a holster that would fit inside my waistband and secure to my trouser belt, and allow the shirt to be tucked in over the gun. I put that on with my regular uniform, and duty belt over the trouser belt. It wasn't really quick access... but it was there, on my hip, with a single layer of shirt in the way. And it was invisible - even for a medium-framed semiautomatic.

Small frame pistols can be carried in a pocket holster and be undetectable. They also are making cargo pocket holsters that will hold a pistol as big as a subcompact Glock or similar. And I could also talk about belly bands, thunderwear, or jacket/vest holsters.


----------



## Akulahawk (Sep 13, 2009)

I was going to say that pic above looked like Israel... That's VERY normal for them. One of the reasons why terrorists there have stopped (by and large) attempted to shoot into crowds is that they're quickly located and stopped by armed citizens. They now use bombs...


----------



## lightsandsirens5 (Sep 14, 2009)

medic417 said:


> It is service by service.  Most services make no policy.  If they say no and you are killed your family can sue and win because you were denied right to defend.  If they say yes and you do something stupid they are responsible.  So that is why most just ignore it and leave it up to you to obey gun laws in your area.



Ahhh...ok. Guess my service has just said no. (And thats funny seeing as how we are run by the county SO.)


----------



## Hopeless Romantic (Sep 14, 2009)

I don't think EMS should be allowed to carry firearms. That's way too much responsibility on their part.

If you think about it, you have a lot of weapons on the rig to defend yourself if need be.

Guns aren't the end all be all of weapons either. If I had the choice, I'd rather take someone on with a gun then with a knife. Guns can jam, guns can run out of ammo, guns are easy to use. Knives on the other hand are none of that. I'd even venture to say that those who attack with a knife are most likely going to be more trained then those attacking with a gun.


----------



## DV_EMT (Sep 14, 2009)

Hopeless Romantic said:


> Guns aren't the end all be all of weapons either. If I had the choice, I'd rather take someone on with a gun then with a knife. Guns can jam, guns can run out of ammo, guns are easy to use. Knives on the other hand are none of that. I'd even venture to say that those who attack with a knife are most likely going to be more trained then those attacking with a gun.



this is a good point... I hardly doubt that someone in an armed robbery scenario would be out of ammo, but jamming... it happens more than you'd think. If they're savvy with guns... they know how to unjam them... and quick.


----------



## HotelCo (Sep 14, 2009)

Oh, if we're talking about knives... I carry mine nearly all the time.


----------



## Medic One (Sep 15, 2009)

best self-defense is not walking into a situation you can't get out of....
Bust as far as some type of training look into local police departments for some basic training...they will most likely be more than willing to have a few volunteers for their guys to beat up!!


----------



## medicp94dao (Sep 15, 2009)

to quote jenny "RUN FORREST RUN!!!!!" LOL.


----------



## medic417 (Sep 15, 2009)

Medic One said:


> best self-defense is not walking into a situation you can't get out of....
> !!



Where can we buy that crystal ball?  There is no way to predict which call will go bad.


----------



## Sasha (Sep 15, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Where can we buy that crystal ball?



On ebay, duh.


----------



## JB42 (Sep 15, 2009)

Link for your crystal ball.


----------



## VentMedic (Sep 15, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Where can we buy that crystal ball? There is no way to predict which call will go bad.


 
You do realize I would have more of a chance getting shot working in a hospital where some of you live from a desparate person taking a weapon away from an EMT(P) who has only a concealed weapon class than I would working on an rescue or driving my nice SUV in one of the worst areas of Miami?


----------



## citizensoldierny (Sep 15, 2009)

berkeman said:


> If you are (you're) a police officer and you are (you're) on scene, and the police left, how could you still be there?



Yep, I'm struggling with that one too.:wacko:


----------



## Sasha (Sep 15, 2009)

JB42 said:


> Link for your crystal ball.



You see? Now medic417, if you're a good little boy I will buy you one for christmas so you are never in harms way again.


----------



## medic417 (Sep 15, 2009)

Sasha said:


> You see? Now medic417, if you're a good little boy I will buy you one for christmas so you are never in harms way again.



Wow gee really.  That is just swell, I mean hot diggity dog swell.


----------



## Sasha (Sep 15, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Wow gee really.  That is just swell, I mean hot diggity dog swell.



Isn't it just the bee's knees?


----------



## medic417 (Sep 15, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Isn't it just the bee's knees?



How bout us going out and cutting a rug to celebrate?


----------



## Akulahawk (Sep 15, 2009)

Medic One said:


> best self-defense is not walking into a situation you can't get out of....


Always plan for a hasty exit... whether it be for your own safety or a load & go patient.


medicp94dao said:


> to quote jenny "RUN FORREST RUN!!!!!" LOL.


If it comes to it... drop your gear and RUN!!!!!!!


VentMedic said:


> You do realize I would have more of a chance getting shot working in a hospital where some of you live from a desparate person taking a weapon away from an EMT(P) who has only a concealed weapon class than I would working on an rescue or driving my nice SUV in one of the worst areas of Miami?


Ideally... you'd never know I'd be carrying... and neither would that desperate person. Were I to carry openly, I'd be using a retention holster, a good belt... and would be prepared to beat the crap out of _anyone _who touches my gun. That includes my partner.


----------



## VentMedic (Sep 15, 2009)

Akulahawk said:


> Ideally... you'd never know I'd be carrying... and neither would that desperate person. Were I to carry openly, I'd be using a retention holster, a good belt... and would be prepared to beat the crap out of _anyone _who touches my gun. That includes my partner.


 
If your weapon was that concealed you would probably have a difficult time retrieving it in an emergency situation. If proven you had time to escape then you intent as to why you used your weapon might be viewed differently in a court of law. You could then be considered the aggressor. 

There are alot of criminals or gang members out there who are much more aware of whether you are carrying or not and are much more experienced at gaining and using a weapon than you.

Once it becomes known that there are EMT(P)s in the field who are armed, their perception and trust in you changes.  I have seen this many times when caring for prisoners, detainees, gang member or whatever.  As soon as a CO or LEO enters, the mood changes.


----------



## Akulahawk (Sep 15, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> If your weapon was that concealed you would probably have a difficult time retrieving it in an emergency situation. If proven you had time to escape then you intent as to why you used your weapon might be viewed differently in a court of law. You could then be considered the aggressor.
> 
> There are alot of criminals or gang members out there who are much more aware of whether you are carrying or not and are much more experienced at gaining and using a weapon than you.
> 
> *Once it becomes known that there are EMT(P)s in the field who are armed, their perception and trust in you changes.  I have seen this many times when caring for prisoners, detainees, gang member or whatever.  As soon as a CO or LEO enters, the mood changes.*


Vent, I have seen this change in people as well. It's not just because the person that walked in is a CO or a LEO is armed, it's because the person who walked in is a CO or a LEO. They know you're there to help them. They know the CO/LEO isn't. I do agree that if it becomes known that Paramedics are carrying firearms for their own protection, it very well could change the public perception (criminal and non-criminal alike) of EMS as a life-saving entity.

As to carrying a concealed weapon, you have no idea what my level of training and awareness is, just as I have no idea of your level of training/awareness. I'm probably as aware, if not more so, of the general legalities of the use and carrying of weapons by non-LEOs, than most people on this forum, and that probably includes most LEOs. 

I'm also quite aware that there are criminals (and cops) that can spot the "tells" that many people have when they're armed. Also, by and large, guess what? Criminals avoid armed citizens more than they avoid openly armed cops. Care to guess why? Interviews with thousands of inmates have yielded some very consistent results: Criminals are more afraid of being shot by a citizen than they are of a cop. Why is that? They know that a cop has to follow some very specific use of force rules, which means the cop is going to follow a "script" in using that force. The criminal knows at what points the cop will increase the level of force necessary and at what points deadly force is authorized. A citizen's use of force response is much less scripted.


----------



## VentMedic (Sep 15, 2009)

Akulahawk said:


> I'm also quite aware that there are criminals (and cops) that can spot the "tells" that many people have when they're armed.* Also, by and large, guess what? Criminals avoid armed citizens more than they avoid openly armed cops. Care to guess why? Interviews with thousands of inmates have yielded some very consistent results: Criminals are more afraid of being shot by a citizen than they are of a cop.* Why is that? They know that a cop has to follow some very specific use of force rules, which means the cop is going to follow a "script" in using that force. The criminal knows at what points the cop will increase the level of force necessary and at what points deadly force is authorized. A citizen's use of force response is much less scripted.


 
Here you contradict yourself and you will have to open carry or made it known to everyone you are carrying. That will change you image and you will pose a threat regardless of the Star of Life on your truck or shirt. 

Once you start carrying a gun "for the job" you are no longer just Mr/Ms Citizen out to protect yourself. 



> and would be prepared to beat the crap out of _anyone _who touches my gun. That includes my partner.


 
In all seriousness, these "I'm gonna shoot and/or fight anyone that threatens me" remarks made by some here are rather scary. I would be very afraid of having someone like this as a partner. The chances are those who "wanna get a gun" are exactly the type that should not be carrying in ANY situation. 

If you want to shoot people, try out for the PD. However, you might have a rude awakening that shooting people is not their intent which is why they train in other skills to avoid using their gun. This is what EMS personnel need to be thinking about. Again, I advise some taking a look at DT4EMS's website or email him for advice. I do not recommend people to start carrying a weopon because it sounds good coming from an anonymous forum.

DT4EMS
http://www.dt4ems.net/


----------



## medic417 (Sep 15, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> In all seriousness, these "I'm gonna shoot and/or fight anyone that threatens me" remarks made by some here are rather scary. I would be very afraid of having someone like this as a partner. The chances are those who "wanna get a gun" are exactly the type that should not be carrying in ANY situation.



Vent you are the one saying we are going to fight rather than run.  If a person is threatening and I can leave, I leave, and I get that idea from the posts of other concealed carry supporters as well.  Those of us in favor of the right to carry have said many times the firearm is last resort.  If I can clear out I will.  But if trapped with no option but die or fight I choose to fight.  How often does it happen?  Who knows?  But once is to often.  

By the logic you and others present then we should quit using many items we have in our ambulances and hospitals because the odds are we will not need them.  Why should the most educated doctor have access to that equipment that the odds are he will never use?   They have it so they can save a life maybe.  Same for those that choose to carry we may save a life.


----------



## Sasha (Sep 15, 2009)

> Same for those that choose to carry we may save a life.



Or cost a life. 

You may run if given the opprotunity, but that does not necessarily mean everyone will. Guns can give a person a courage boost to take on situations they would otherwise flee from.


----------



## VentMedic (Sep 15, 2009)

The difference between the equipment used by doctors and guns is the intended purpose. 



> Vent you are the one saying we are going to fight rather than run.


 
Your remarks have been pretty consistent throughout this thread. 


medic417 said:


> Just pull your concealed firearm and shoot them in self defense. Issue solved.


 


medic417 said:


>


 



medic417 said:


> It is service by service. Most services make no policy. If they say no and you are killed your family can sue and win because you were denied right to defend. If they say yes and you do something stupid they are responsible. So that is why most just ignore it and leave it up to you to obey gun laws in your area.


 
If you want to carry a gun, you should be able to discuss this with your employer.  There are the ones who also will be paying for whatever mistakes you make.   Those who can not have this discussion with their employer are cowards and probably have no business carrying a gun which will just give them a false sense of security or courage that they don't have.  These would be the people most likely to shoot at their own shadow and hit their partner or some other bystander.


----------



## Lifeguards For Life (Sep 15, 2009)

I don't know if all know and understand the use of lethal force drawing a gun. We were taught never to shoot to disarm, impede an attack, or anything other than lethal force. three shots one to the head, one to the neck, one to the thoracic area. every single time. 
Use of a fire arm to disarm, impede a threat, threaten is inappropriate and dangerous use of a firearm. I believe some know this, but am not sure everyone rallying to carry full understands the implications and responsibilities of carrying by proffesion


----------



## HotelCo (Sep 15, 2009)

Lifeguards For Life said:


> I don't know if all know and understand the use of lethal force drawing a gun. We were taught never to shoot to disarm, impede an attack, or anything other than lethal force. three shots one to the head, one to the neck, one to the thoracic area. every single time.
> Use of a fire arm to disarm, impede a threat, threaten is inappropriate and dangerous use of a firearm. I believe some know this, but am not sure everyone rallying to carry full understands the implications and responsibilities of carrying by proffesion



I was always taght either Two the chest, and one to the head. Or 2 to the T-zone in the head, and one in the chest.


----------



## John E (Sep 15, 2009)

*If what you wrote is true...*



Lifeguards For Life said:


> "three shots one to the head, one to the neck, one to the thoracic area. every single time."
> 
> 
> Then whoever taught you to shoot is an idiot.
> ...


----------



## Jon (Sep 15, 2009)

Lifeguards For Life said:


> I don't know if all know and understand the use of lethal force drawing a gun. We were taught never to shoot to disarm, impede an attack, or anything other than lethal force. three shots one to the head, one to the neck, one to the thoracic area. every single time.
> Use of a fire arm to disarm, impede a threat, threaten is inappropriate and dangerous use of a firearm. I believe some know this, but am not sure everyone rallying to carry full understands the implications and responsibilities of carrying by proffesion


LFL:

I've been taught aiming and shooting at Center Mass. If they aren't going down, then a head shot (body armor, etc)



John E said:


> Center of body mass is the number one aiming point in virtually any type of shooting situation.
> 
> And you never, ever use the number of shots fired to determine when to stop shooting, you continue shooting until the threat is eliminated, that whole "3 shots" "double tap" nonsense is just that, nonsense.


I concur. That said, I was taught a drill where you fired a double tap, then the gun goes to low-ready and you scan with your eyes for other threats, then engage whatever else is a threat. Personally, I worry that if I'm too used to standing on a "square range" shooting the cardboard in front of me and nowhere else, that I might end up with tunnel vision and get myself killed for it.



John E said:


> I'd be very curious as to how many of the folks in this thread have ever actually drawn down on someone or actually used a gun in a defensive situation. Given some of the nonsense written here I'd guess that very few if any of you have.


Never had to. Not really looking forward to the possibility, but I acknowledge the need and accept it as part of carrying a firearm.


----------



## citizensoldierny (Sep 15, 2009)

HotelCo said:


> I was always taght either Two the chest, and one to the head. Or 2 to the T-zone in the head, and one in the chest.



I've been through a bit of training by Uncle Sam and a certain states Dept. of Corrections and all my training has been shooting center of mass. But then again I'm not SWAT/TAC or a sniper.


----------



## BruceD (Sep 15, 2009)

Hmm... 

After reading this, I think I want a new emt partner.  This is the one I'd choose.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYdkt7yIFLY

-B


----------



## Jon (Sep 15, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> If your weapon was that concealed you would probably have a difficult time retrieving it in an emergency situation. If proven you had time to escape then you intent as to why you used your weapon might be viewed differently in a court of law. You could then be considered the aggressor.


Vent,

I went over this in an earlier post. There are many ways of carrying concealed that allow for relatively quick presentation, but are very discreet carry methods. This video shows a common concept in CCW holsters - the "tuckable" feature. The holster sits inside the waistband and the shirt can be tucked in over the firearm. Allows for very quick presentation, and is very well concealed.
[youtube]DaWyS3cTMHA[/youtube]


----------



## medic417 (Sep 15, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> The difference between the equipment used by doctors and guns is the intended purpose.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OK you caught me being sarcastic about a topic that has been beaten to death.  I had actually hoped it would lead to a quick lock.  Sadly it has been a repeat of the same things with many twisting words of others.   And you choose to only qoute those and not the ones where I got serious except for as discussed next.

As to the last statement you quoted of mine the official policy is no policy as it is more protection for the company.  Those that say no or yes set themselves up more so than those that say nothing.  

Firearms give no false sense of security or courage to those that are properly educated.  It honestly leads you to be more cautious as you are reminded each time you put it on that you have the potential to not be coming home.  I probably request LE more often than most Paramedics I have worked with because I prefer not to have to defend myself.  But in saying that I have gone to the little old persons house for the lift assist for the 100th time this year just to find a drunken family member brewing for a fight waving a knife wildly.  Thankfully it was where I could still back out safely and request LE to get them controlled.  Had I not had the education, had I not reflected on the potential dangers of every call I might have stepped right into a knife blade by walking in like most Paramedics oblivious to everything but their patients.


----------



## medic417 (Sep 15, 2009)

John E said:


> Lifeguards For Life said:
> 
> 
> > I'd be very curious as to how many of the folks in this thread have ever actually drawn down on someone or actually used a gun in a defensive situation. Given some of the nonsense written here I'd guess that very few if any of you have.
> ...


----------



## VentMedic (Sep 15, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Firearms give no false sense of security or courage to those that are properly educated.


 
I do not consider a concealed weapons course which can be taught at many of the local trade shows in an afternoon and then a few rounds on a range as proper education.   Knowing how to shoot a gun is very different from when to use deadly force on the job.   Remember, you are entering the other person's territory and not them entering your house.  Ever wonder why LEOs call for backup or SWAT?   Their training tells the to avoid being stupid in unknown situations. 




> I went over this in an earlier post. There are many ways of carrying concealed that allow for relatively quick presentation, but are very discreet carry methods. This video shows a common concept in CCW holsters - the "tuckable" feature. The holster sits inside the waistband and the shirt can be tucked in over the firearm. Allows for very quick presentation, and is very well concealed.


 
Jon, let's be realistic.  When you are entering a house, you have your hands full of medical equipment.  You do not have your hands on your holster.   Watch how LEOs approach a situation.  They are not carrying two EMS bags when approaching a car to give a ticket.


----------



## medic417 (Sep 15, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> I do not consider a concealed weapons course which can be taught at many of the local trade shows in an afternoon and then a few rounds on a range as proper education.   Knowing how to shoot a gun is very different from when to use deadly force on the job.   Remember, you are entering the other person's territory and not them entering your house.  Ever wonder why LEOs call for backup or SWAT?   Their training tells the to avoid being stupid in unknown situations.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Vent lets be serious how often has it been said that we will only be trying to draw in defense, and also probably from behind what ever we have tried to hide behind.  Again we are not going wild west here.  

Enough of this bull shut the dang thread down before some of us say things that get us banned.


----------



## Hopeless Romantic (Sep 15, 2009)

BruceD said:


> Hmm...
> 
> After reading this, I think I want a new emt partner.  This is the one I'd choose.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYdkt7yIFLY
> ...



While he's an excellent shot, I wouldn't want him as a partner for that reason. He probably never practices under stress. Still very impressive to look at though. :excl::excl::excl::excl::excl:


----------



## VentMedic (Sep 15, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Vent lets be serious how often has it been said that we will only be trying to draw in defense, and also probably from behind what ever we have tried to hide behind. Again we are not going wild west here.
> 
> Enough of this bull shut the dang thread down before some of us say things that get us banned.


 
And let's be serious as to how realistic it is to be ready to reach for your ankle holster while carrying EMS equipment.   

And, how many have trained under stress?

I have been shot at and none of us felt like sticking around to shoot back and that includes the macho FF types.   We were all under or behind the fire truck waiting to haul butt out of there.   I have also counted the bullet holes in my ambulance after the riots and in no way would I have wanted to confront any of those shooting at us.   I consider myself a good shot on the range but I know now what adrenaline does when someone is actually under fire.  Unless you actively train for these situations, you have NO business carrying on the job where your own actions could get yourself and others injured.


----------



## medic417 (Sep 15, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> And let's be serious as to how realistic it is to be ready to reach for your ankle holster while carrying EMS equipment.
> 
> And, how many have trained under stress?
> 
> I have been shot at and none of us felt like sticking around to shoot back and that includes the macho FF types.   We were all under or behind the fire truck waiting to haul butt out of there.   I have also counted the bullet holes in my ambulance after the riots and in no way would I have wanted to confront any of those shooting at us.   I consider myself a good shot on the range but I know now what adrenaline does when someone is actually under fire.  Unless you actively train for these situations, you have NO business carrying on the job where your own actions could get yourself and others injured.



But while pinned down would it not have been nice to calmly pull your firearm and be ready had the shooter approached to finish the job.  

And again if you can evade evade.


----------



## VentMedic (Sep 15, 2009)

medic417 said:


> But while pinned down would it not have been nice to calmly pull your firearm and be ready had the shooter approached to finish the job.
> 
> And again if you can evade evade.


 
In a riot situation you will have a dozen people that will be armed.  It would be wise not to attract attention as you can not kill all of them.


----------



## ffemt8978 (Sep 15, 2009)

And this one has run it's course.


----------

