# Privatized EMS in Placentia CA



## ITBITB13 (Jun 4, 2019)

So today is the day the Placentia city council is voting on whether or not to privatize First-in ALS services, and possibly launch their own city FD.

Thoughts, comments, opinions?

I say good for you Placentia. Of course, the OCFA is launching their scare tactics to the mostly uninformed residents, claiming that privatized single function paramedics, and a city FD will somehow provide lesser care to residents and visitors. 

FYI, Looking for healthy debates only guys although I’m a little biased towards stand alone municipal / private ems, I’m open to have my mind changed.


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## Mufasa556 (Jun 4, 2019)

OCFA is losing their minds at the prospect of this. They were already not very friendly to us for having private medics when I worked at Lynch. 

On the BLS side, Lynch had the goofy EMTs that all SoCal IFT companies have but most of the medics I worked with were squared away. They all had worked out in Riverside, Palm Springs, Vegas, were tired of that grind and liked what Lynch offered. We walked into some pretty serious calls and those guys were real professionals. It was super refreshing to be with medics who cared about medicine and not fire trucks. 

I worked with some really great people there. I hope it works out. 



> *ocfirefighters*
> ***URGENT -- PUBLIC SAFETY AT RISK*** The City of Placentia is considering a plan that would DRASTICALLY cut the level of Fire and Emergency Medical Services in their city. This action would clearly be a reduction in the service levels its citizens have grown accustomed too. Nonetheless It would appear as if The Placentia City Council stands willing to make that gamble with its citizens safety.
> 
> On Tuesday, June 4th, The City Council will be voting on whether or not to move forward with a plan to establish their own fire department and contract out Emergency Medical Services to a for profit, private ambulance company. This is a risky move and one that puts the public's safety in the hands of companies that value profit over performance. This radical service model change will take 39 full time, professional firefighters and paramedics away from the tax paying citizens of Placentia.
> ...




        View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


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## Alan L Serve (Jun 4, 2019)

I am very impressed
With a city name
Placentia


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## ITBITB13 (Jun 4, 2019)

Mufasa556 said:


> OCFA is losing their minds at the prospect of this. They were already not very friendly to us for having private medics when I worked at Lynch.
> 
> On the BLS side, Lynch had the goofy EMTs that all SoCal IFT companies have but most of the medics I worked with were squared away. They all had worked out in Riverside, Palm Springs, Vegas, were tired of that grind and liked what Lynch offered. We walked into some pretty serious calls and those guys were real professionals. It was super refreshing to be with medics who cared about medicine and not fire trucks.
> 
> ...



That Instagram post is actually kinda funny to me. Sounds like a last ditched prop 11 styled effort by the FD to scare the public into believing them. However unlike AMR, it looks like OCFA will not win. If you read their “proposal”, it is actually a letter on how they will not be submitting a proposal.


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## jgmedic (Jun 4, 2019)

It's because OCFA spends a lot on that contract. Placentia pays for 3-0 engines, OCFA pays the cost for the 4th and for the truck company in Placentia. They would save money getting out of it.


			https://placentia.granicus.com/MetaViewer.php?view_id=4&event_id=325&meta_id=53183


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## CCCSD (Jun 4, 2019)

I love watching Plugs panic and post on social media.


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## GutIvanGuy (Jun 4, 2019)

@Jim37F, curious on the Sarge’s opinion on this one.


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## Virgil (Jun 5, 2019)

Should this pass, what company would be most likely to take it?


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## Jn1232th (Jun 5, 2019)

Virgil said:


> Should this pass, what company would be most likely to take it?



I'm guessing emergency ambulance since they already run that area.


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## Jn1232th (Jun 5, 2019)

is privatizing talking about Medic on the ambulance with private company responding to 911 or placentia making there own fire department?


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## ITBITB13 (Jun 5, 2019)

justin1232 said:


> is privatizing talking about Medic on the ambulance with private company responding to 911 or placentia making their own fire department?


Both.


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## Generic (Jun 5, 2019)

Supposedly, it is Lynch ambulance.


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## Jn1232th (Jun 5, 2019)

Generic said:


> Supposedly, it is Lynch ambulance.



Oh that'll be interesting!


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## RocketMedic (Jun 5, 2019)

How did the vote go?


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## ITBITB13 (Jun 5, 2019)

Both motions passed with a 3-1 vote.


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## Medic496 (Jun 5, 2019)

justin1232 said:


> is privatizing talking about Medic on the ambulance with private company responding to 911 or placentia making there own fire department?


The RFP allowed for the ALS provider to choose their mode of deployment since there is already a contracted (EAS)  Ambulance provider.  Lynch’s proposal was to use ambulances as a non transport vehicle.


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## RocketMedic (Jun 5, 2019)

So very wasteful to use ambulances as non-transporting vehicles. They could do the same thing with like a Ford Focus or something if they care that much about costs and Emergency is still transporting.


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## ITBITB13 (Jun 5, 2019)

RocketMedic said:


> View attachment 4482
> 
> So very wasteful to use ambulances as non-transporting vehicles. They could do the same thing with like a Ford Focus or something if they care that much about costs and Emergency is still transporting.



Well maybe they’re positioning themselves for something. What about Compton fire medics? They’re not the only ones using the non transporting ambulance.


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## Virgil (Jun 5, 2019)

RocketMedic said:


> View attachment 4482
> 
> So very wasteful to use ambulances as non-transporting vehicles. They could do the same thing with like a Ford Focus or something if they care that much about costs and Emergency is still transporting.


Maybe a different discussion, but the more I learn about the use of flycars, the more I wonder why SoCal doesn't adopt that type of system if they want to cut costs. I guess the state in question might be the answer as well though.


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## ITBITB13 (Jun 5, 2019)

Virgil said:


> Maybe a different discussion, but the more I learn about the use of flycars, the more I wonder why SoCal doesn't adopt that type of system if they want to cut costs. I guess the state in question might be the answer as well though.


Southern California (LA and Orange counties) aren’t ready for such a drastic advancement in EMS. Not with the vise grip grasp that the FD unions have.
I’m not the biggest fan of Lynch ambulance and what they’re doing. However, the adoption of this model is something that the public needs, although no one can understand that just yet.
I sat at home in my living room, until 1am, watching that city council meeting. This EMS model is the hero we need, but that the public and current system isn’t willing to accept because of the pockets it will be hurting. Give it time though. Lynch will be known as the company who revolutionized EMS in Orange County. 

*I am not affiliated with any Orange County agency. My involvement in EMS is all outside of Orange County.*


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## wirk242 (Jun 5, 2019)

How is this different than the laco model? Dual medic squabulance with bls engines and bls transport. Main difference I see is that there are at least 6 less career medic positions in socal.


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## DesertMedic66 (Jun 5, 2019)

wirk242 said:


> How is this different than the laco model? Dual medic squabulance with bls engines and bls transport. Main difference I see is that there are at least 6 less career medic positions in socal.


The difference is that in LA the only 911 medics are from the fire department. With this the medics will be from a private company (something that 99% of CA uses daily without issue). It is supposed to be vastly cheaper then continuing to contract with OCFA.


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## jgmedic (Jun 5, 2019)

Its not different. Flycars(Squads) have existed for years in LACo, they're all over Riverside and SBCo. However it's just as stupid for Lynch to use their ambos as non-transport units as it is for Redondo Beach, Costa Mesa, Compton or any FD to do. Im all in favor of this happening, but Lynch's rep in EMS is terrible, and Im scared for what that's gonna bring. Plus, do you really think they're going to pay their medics commensurate with an FD 911 medic in OC, or anywhere close?


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## VentMonkey (Jun 5, 2019)

jgmedic said:


> Im all in favor of this happening, but Lynch's rep in EMS is terrible, and Im scared for what that's gonna bring.


I agree, it’s a waste of resources, but I really don’t know too much about Lynch. Why is their rep terrible? 

I thought OCFA wasn’t exactly known for their medical care either. Again, my OC-EMS knowledge is archaic, and limited at best.


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## wirk242 (Jun 5, 2019)

That is exactly what I saying. This is not a big step forward. This is not a career medic gig. It's going to be a stepping stone at best for most. 

Lynch will be able to pay people dirt cheap because they are the only private als in the OC. Medics will put up with it untill they get called up. And now there is 6-12 less medic jobs with real benefits, decent pay and a retirement in OC. 

I get it, not everyone wants to work for a fire department. But there are not many options for medics where you can raise a family, buy house and not live in Bakersfield.


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## VentMonkey (Jun 5, 2019)

wirk242 said:


> I get it, not everyone wants to work for a fire department. But there are not many options for medics where you can raise a family, buy house and not live in Bakersfield.


Fair enough...I guess. Former Angelino here
FWIW.

I’m ~2 hours from the beach, mountains, the “real” city etc with better drives to and from and the same/ similar amount of traffic it takes most people in LA/ OC to get to and from said destinations. 

Plus, the coast has reasonably prettier beaches than the overcrowded LA beaches, maybe with the exception of the ones in OC.

That said, it took me a while to settle in from a large city dweller to living in a more insular town. Goods and bads I like it here overall. I’m just saying, you don’t know what you don’t know til ya’ know it.


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## RocketMedic (Jun 5, 2019)

VentMonkey said:


> Fair enough...I guess. Former Angelino here
> FWIW.
> 
> I’m ~2 hours from the beach, mountains, the “real” city etc with better drives to and from and the same/ similar amount of traffic it takes most people in LA/ OC to get to and from said destinations.
> ...



I live in the objectively-nicest part of the Houston Metro and would take Bakersfield 12/10 times over this muggy swamphole.
Bakersfield is like a 1/3rd scale San Antonio, which is the best city on Earth. But Bakersfield has better positioning. Only better position is like...Visalia or something. Maybe Fresno. The CA Central Valley is pretty awesome because everything is close. Texas, all adventures start with a 3-hour drive unless you're in Austin or San Antonio.


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## jgmedic (Jun 5, 2019)

When I was in OCEMS Lynch was known to be the most Ricky Rescue company around, regularly heard their EMTs brag about driving code 3 on SNF transfers or whatever BS call just to beat traffic, to a man, they had multiple trauma shears and tape rolls on their BDU pants or boots unzipped, shirts untucked, just a gongshow all around. @VentMonkey, OCFA is terrible at EMS in general, had god complexes, and working closely with them made me know exactly how I didnt want to be as a medic and FF. What @wirk242 said is the truth, Lynch will pay bottom dollar for medics who are stuck on transfer trucks and are wannabe firemen, and in OC, they will have lines of those guys out the door.


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## RocketMedic (Jun 5, 2019)

Strong work.


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## DesertMedic66 (Jun 5, 2019)

wirk242 said:


> That is exactly what I saying. This is not a big step forward. This is not a career medic gig. It's going to be a stepping stone at best for most.
> 
> Lynch will be able to pay people dirt cheap because they are the only private als in the OC. Medics will put up with it untill they get called up. And now there is 6-12 less medic jobs with real benefits, decent pay and a retirement in OC.
> 
> I get it, not everyone wants to work for a fire department. But there are not many options for medics where you can raise a family, buy house and not live in Bakersfield.


From the medical side it is not a huge step forward. For Orange County as a system it is a huge step. How long has OCFA been in control? Not only did the city move away from the fire department having the only 911 paramedics but the city also moved away from OCFA as a whole for both ambulance and fire services because they found out how much money they could save.

Is it for the best? Who knows. The city seems to think it is.


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## wtferick (Jun 6, 2019)

When I worked in Westminster, one of the Placentia guys picked up OT. He had a very strong opinion on how Orange County should push towards Private Paramedics. Maybe we shall soon get there? 🤷🏼‍♂️


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## wtferick (Jun 6, 2019)

Placentia First OC City to Leave Fire Authority and Form its Own Fire Department
					

The Placentia City Council voted 3-1 Wednesday morning to form its own fire department after years of rising costs contracting with the Orange County Fire Authority.




					voiceofoc.org


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## DrParasite (Jun 6, 2019)

Such an interesting setup..... currently the county FD is all FF/PM, and they first respond and initiate ALS care.  the ambulance is separate, typically BLS only, and is a transportation vehicle only.  If the patient requires ALS care, the FF/PM transports with the ambulance, while the engine follows behind, OOS for subsequent calls (I am assuming never leaving their first due, as all hospital that the patient gets transported to are still in the city limits).  Once care is turned over, the FF/PM gets back into the truck and they are now able to head back to the house.

So now they are going to expel the OCFRA, and run their own FD as just suppression units, contract out their primary medical response to a private ALS agency who will respond to calls in a non-transporting ambulance, and still use a BLS transporting ambulance.  very interesting.....

Looking into my crystal ball, here is what I predict happening: Placentia  will form their own department, and try to recruit the OCFA guys who cover their area.  They will get political BS from OCFA every time they do, but still call them every time they need a ladder truck or mutual aid assistance for an actual fire.  it will get messy, esp when OCFA units cut through Placentia to go to another call in the county.  I also predict the costs will rise in the next year, as a full time chief is hired, shift commander/batt chief, and administrative officers are hired (training, medical, etc), as well as 911 communications.

But things will improve, since you won't be tying up suppression resources on medical calls (and by typing up, I mean the following of the ambulance to the hospital to get the medic back).  It's cheaper, because Placentia money is spent only on Placentia, instead of the entire county, which is good, until you need help from the county and they decide to send you a bill for services rendered.  Outside of the fear mongering on the side of the union and the OCFA, I predict day to day not much will change.

I'm generally pro county wide public safety systems, but after living in one, see that they do have drawbacks, particularly when you don't have resources to cover your area because they are assisting someone elsewhere.  Or when you are in a rich area, and tax revenue is spent elsewhere to support poorer areas of the county to ensure they have proper staffing and equipment too. 

and my opinion on FF/PM on the engines is that it is a waste of money, as are non-transporting ambulances staffed by 2 FF/PMs.  I will also say that by converting the EMS responders from FF/PM to single role PM, you are losing 2 firefighters, who would be able to assist you should you get that actual structure fire if they were not on an EMS run.  But it should be interesting.


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## Medic496 (Jun 6, 2019)

RocketMedic said:


> View attachment 4482
> 
> So very wasteful to use ambulances as non-transporting vehicles. They could do the same thing with like a Ford Focus or something if they care that much about costs and Emergency is still transporting.


I appreciate your perspective and agree with you.  ANY proposer could've used motorcycles, squads or drones if they wanted.  However, the selection of ambulances (type 2) for response is identical to what OCFA had been doing in the past with their medic units and the bonus is it provides an extra transport resource during a large scale emergency.   Ambulance providers are the greatest source of surge capacity for EMS responders and transport units due to their dual mission of both 911 and IFT.


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## DrParasite (Jun 6, 2019)

Medic496 said:


> I appreciate your perspective and agree with you.  ANY proposer could've used motorcycles, squads or drones if they wanted.  However, the selection of ambulances (type 2) for response is identical to what OCFA had been doing in the past with their medic units and the bonus is it provides an extra transport resource during a large scale emergency.   Ambulance providers are the greatest source of surge capacity for EMS responders and transport units due to their dual mission of both 911 and IFT.


I appreciate your perspective, but it's still wasteful.  If you send an ambulance, why not transport in said ambulance?  if you are sending a first responder to initiate care until the ambulance gets there, great, but then it's poor patient care to have a patient circle the drain while a transport capable vehicle that is designed to transport sick patient sits outside unused.  It's one thing if the vehicle isn't designed to transport a patient (motorcycle, squad, drone, fire engine, etc), but an ambulance is......

Hopefully your regional emergency management has a plan for what to do during a large scale emergency.  I can assure you that plenty of systems handle large scale emergencies without sending their EMS providers as first responders in non-transporting ambulance.  If anything, it shows how your system should have additional 911 ambulances built into the system to handle surges.

Just because OCFA has been doing it in the past doesn't make it any less wasteful.

Now if you are planning on using it as a flycar  or chase car, and want to have the transport capabilities available on the rare instances that the ambulance is tied up on another call or unavailable, I can see that; however, as a first responder vehicle, there are more efficient ways to do that.


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## rescue1 (Jun 6, 2019)

MONOC in NJ does the same thing with transport ambulances being used as ALS fly cars. I never understood why they'd wait on scene for a volunteer bus to transport their ALS patient to the hospital but I guess that's over my pay grade.


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## Generic (Jun 6, 2019)

Lynch EMS Receives Placentia Contract – Lynch Ambulance
					






					lynchambulance.com


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## DrParasite (Jun 6, 2019)

rescue1 said:


> MONOC in NJ does the same thing with transport ambulances being used as ALS fly cars. I never understood why they'd wait on scene for a volunteer bus to transport their ALS patient to the hospital but I guess that's over my pay grade.


MONOC is a little different, because 1) by DOH or state regulation, they weren't able to transport in those trucks, as the only time this was permitted is when the ALS agency and BLS agency were the same entity (which was why only RWJ, UMDNJ and JCMC were given waivers, as their hospital based BLS services provided coverage to areas where their ALS units held the CNs)   2) they may or may not have gotten the waiver to allow them to transport (many people say they were told they were given it, but no one actually saw the waiver) and most importantly 3) if the system was working as designed, the  MONOC ALS unit was supposed to arrive AFTER the BLS transport unit, which is not how this was occurring in Orange County, where the OCFA are acting as non-transport capable first responders, not a transport capable ALS agency.

There is a lot of history that led to this, plus political clout by the NJFAC in Trenton that made the system the way it was, as well as an increasing call volume without an equally rising funding to additional ambulances (or paid staffing), and some crappy dispatchers that would request an ALS unit for a BLS patient because the BLS agency didn't have any available units and the cop was tired of waiting with the patient......

So yeah, while there are some similarities, there are some very critical differences that make what OCFA does very different than what occurs at MONOC


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## rescue1 (Jun 6, 2019)

DrParasite said:


> MONOC is a little different, because 1) by DOH or state regulation, they weren't able to transport in those trucks, as the only time this was permitted is when the ALS agency and BLS agency were the same entity (which was why only RWJ, UMDNJ and JCMC were given waivers, as their hospital based BLS services provided coverage to areas where their ALS units held the CNs)   2) they may or may not have gotten the waiver to allow them to transport (many people say they were told they were given it, but no one actually saw the waiver) and most importantly 3) if the system was working as designed, the  MONOC ALS unit was supposed to arrive AFTER the BLS transport unit, which is not how this was occurring in Orange County, where the OCFA are acting as non-transport capable first responders, not a transport capable ALS agency.
> 
> There is a lot of history that led to this, plus political clout by the NJFAC in Trenton that made the system the way it was, as well as an increasing call volume without an equally rising funding to additional ambulances (or paid staffing), and some crappy dispatchers that would request an ALS unit for a BLS patient because the BLS agency didn't have any available units and the cop was tired of waiting with the patient......
> 
> So yeah, while there are some similarities, there are some very critical differences that make what OCFA does very different than what occurs at MONOC



I've definitely transported patients in a MONOC MICU before (this year), though idk if that was kosher by state regulations.
NJ is a strange place for EMS--when I did my MONOC time we would beat the volleys in 90% of the time in one town, but the next town over would be paid and cancel ALS constantly. Coming from my all paid, all ALS transport Pennsylvania system it was very jarring.


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## DrParasite (Jun 6, 2019)

I have no doubt it was done, but some places have a reputation for playing fast and lose with certain rules... as well as ambitiously trying to change them to suit your purposes.

It you had gotten out of Monmouth and Ocean county, you would have seen an even more interesting environments.  you have volunteers beating medics to the scene, cancelling the medics, and handling patients all on their own.... or even stranger, 2 to 3 paramedic units covering an entire county, all in SUV Flycars....  and NO FD involvement in EMS.....  Very different compared to some other states.

It's far from perfect, and some places are more questionable than others, but if you could make it there, you could make it anywhere.


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## rescue1 (Jun 6, 2019)

DrParasite said:


> I have no doubt it was done, but some places have a reputation for playing fast and lose with certain rules... as well as ambitiously trying to change them to suit your purposes.
> 
> It you had gotten out of Monmouth and Ocean county, you would have seen an even more interesting environments.  you have volunteers beating medics to the scene, cancelling the medics, and handling patients all on their own.... or even stranger, 2 to 3 paramedic units covering an entire county, all in SUV Flycars....  and NO FD involvement in EMS.....  Very different compared to some other states.
> 
> It's far from perfect, and some places are more questionable than others, but if you could make it there, you could make it anywhere.



Haha yeah, I know MONOC as a service is pretty soulless, it's just where my prehospital ride time for school happened to be. All the times we transported were due to extended volunteer response times--30+ minutes and the like, I'm assuming that's not the case throughout the state. I know they paid their medics kinda ****ty by Jersey standards too--a few guys I talked to were talking about going to Virtua or JCMC. 


My buddy used to work TEMS and used to tell me stories about it--they used to cancel the Capital medics on almost everything. Honestly I'm all for that--I think ALS is extremely overused in most, if not all, urban systems. The whole volunteer thing I'm not particularly sold on, but that's a battle for another time.


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## jgmedic (Jun 6, 2019)

@DrParasite, I would put money that few if any OCFA guys will jump ship to this new Placentia FD, to go from a large, ALS, all risk agency to a 2 station BLS startup. Absolutely not. OCFA sucks to work with, not for.


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## CCCSD (Jun 6, 2019)

Depends on bennies, opportunities, etc. ground floor at a new department is nothing to sneeze at.


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## jgmedic (Jun 6, 2019)

Dude, it's OCFA, guys from all over SoCal leave their depts for them. Ive seen engineers and Capts drop to probie FF just be at OCFA. Ground floor is great but not when youre at one of the destination depts in SoCal.


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## CCCSD (Jun 6, 2019)

Dude, OCFA ain’t the greatest slice of bread in the bag.


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## Jim37F (Jun 6, 2019)

What sort of org/staffing is the new Placentia FD looking at? I.e. 3 or 4x Engines with 3 or 4 FFs plus a Ladder (or relying on OCFA Mutual Aid for one?) Just curious? I'm assuming at least one fire medic on each engine? 

As far as the EMS goes, dec sounds like an interesting model, just skimming the other posts, are they really looking at a private to be a non transporting squad? With a second private being transport? I.e. is a Placentia FD engine gonna show up with a Lynch ALS unit AND an EAS BLS unit, with Lynch medic riding in on the EAS ambulance for ALS transports? Or cancel EAS and transport themselves, while EAS only takes BLS transports? (a la Seattle Medic One and AMR?) 

Or is EAS losing Placentia totally and Lynch transports everything?

Anyways, I'm more interested in this bucking the whole OC system. I never worked with/for OCFA, only know their reputation largely thru these forums lol but it def sounds like it'd be a good thing to have other options beyond engine medics making $100K/yrand private min wage EMTs doing the actual transporting and wall holding...

I like my current system best. Fire is BLS/EMR only, with municipal third service ALS ambulance, Fire only going on maybe half of EMSs calls? 

Hall definitely shows that a private co, run properly, can fill in. Hopefully Lynch/EAS can do that as well, vs some of the AMR divisions around...


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## wtferick (Jun 7, 2019)

It sounds like they are dropping Emergency Ambulance completely. Not sure. 

As to mutual aid from OCFA. They would honestly only really be getting help from Yorba Linda and Villa Park. All the other cities are Metro Net (City Departments)

Good for Lynch nonetheless.


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## VentMonkey (Jun 7, 2019)

Jim37F said:


> I like my current system best. Fire is BLS/EMR only, with municipal third service ALS ambulance, Fire only going on maybe half of EMSs calls?


All hail @Jim37F Fire Chief of all Fire Chiefs!


Jim37F said:


> Hall definitely shows that a private co, run properly, can fill in. Hopefully Lynch/EAS can do that as well, vs some of the AMR divisions around...


Make no mistake about it, even our FD’s are convinced more ALS medical care sooner=the best outcomes for patients, SMDH.


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## FoleyArtist (Jun 7, 2019)

Lynch will provide ALS, EAS keeps BLS (as nothing happened on their end). the submitted model was dual medic squads working Kelley schedules. I haven't done the research on the rfp requirements but utilizing non transporting ambulance as "squads" are probably a cost saving measure, since Lynch already has 6-7 ALS ford transit vans. Does anyone know if FD even has to respond or will EMS be handled by EMS? How does it work in third service states/counties? FD for certain criteria like full arrests and MVAs?

I heard at my work from a FD captain working for a local la co. city, he predicts what will happen is Placentia becomes an island. he stated back when Rural Metro FD took contracts the other city fd municipalities would not provide mutual aid. (makes hand washing gesture) "the surrounding depts. would act like ,"you wanted the contract, handle it bro. you got it."" Surely if such a tactic was used OCFA will find a way to not provide mutual aid, so Yorba linda is out. would the new Placentia FD build an "alliance" with Fullerton/Brea FD, and Anaheim FD?


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## VentMonkey (Jun 7, 2019)

FoleyArtist said:


> Does anyone know if FD even has to respond or will EMS be handled by EMS? How does it work in third service states/counties? FD for certain criteria like full arrests and MVAs?


It’s all speculative at this point, but a FFPM friend of mine is claiming it’ll be like up where I am. The FD will respond to all Echo, Delta, and Charlie calls—so, Priority 1’s & 2’s, or “L&S” calls—assuming that they’re going off of the foolproof EMD codes.


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## DrParasite (Jun 7, 2019)

jgmedic said:


> @DrParasite, I would put money that few if any OCFA guys will jump ship to this new Placentia FD, to go from a large, ALS, all risk agency to a 2 station BLS startup. Absolutely not. OCFA sucks to work with, not for.


I think that's a pretty safe bet, however, if the pay and benefits are comparable, and they have a FF who is offered a captain position, or a captain who is offered a chief's position, especially if their chances of getting it at OCFA are slim..... Again, I think it will be offered, but I agree, I don't think many will take it, unless they really want to get off the ambulances.....


Jim37F said:


> What sort of org/staffing is the new Placentia FD looking at? I.e. 3 or 4x Engines with 3 or 4 FFs plus a Ladder (or relying on OCFA Mutual Aid for one?) Just curious? I'm assuming at least one fire medic on each engine?


according to the article, it was 3 FT FFs and 1 reserve FF, and only two engines.... no ladder was mentioned.  I'm guessing BLS only, as they have lynch in a non-transporting ALS QRV to handle the EMS calls





Jim37F said:


> I like my current system best. Fire is BLS/EMR only, with municipal third service ALS ambulance, Fire only going on maybe half of EMSs calls?


I agree (although I think having career FFs only being EMR level is embarrassing, and if you want to be a career FD, you should at least be an EMT level department).   A fully staffed EMS agency should be able to handle the majority of EMS calls without the FD to hold their hand, or stop the clock.  Alas, too many places will over staff the FD first responders to compensate for an understaffed EMS system.... But that's another topic for another day...


VentMonkey said:


> It’s all speculative at this point, but a FFPM friend of mine is claiming it’ll be like up where I am. The FD will respond to all Echo, Delta, and Charlie calls—so, Priority 1’s & 2’s, or “L&S” calls—assuming that they’re going off of the foolproof EMD codes.


So they are going to send a lynch QRV with 2 ALS personnel and a 3 person BLS engine to all ALS coded calls?  I can understand going on Echos (cardiac arrest and such, when you need muscle and hands, not necessarily ALS providers), or ALS calls if they are closer than the ALS squads (which shouldn't happen in most cases), but going on all calls sounds kinda redundant and wasteful to me.


FoleyArtist said:


> I heard at my work from a FD captain working for a local la co. city, he predicts what will happen is Placentia becomes an island. he stated back when Rural Metro FD took contracts the other city fd municipalities would not provide mutual aid. (makes hand washing gesture) "the surrounding depts. would act like ,"you wanted the contract, handle it bro. you got it."" Surely if such a tactic was used OCFA will find a way to not provide mutual aid, so Yorba linda is out. would the new Placentia FD build an "alliance" with Fullerton/Brea FD, and Anaheim FD?


That would be my one area of concern.  If the new Placentia FD had a major incident, OCFA would refuse to respond due to political BS, despite being the closest mutual aid provider.  Still have that question about who is providing a ladder/special service for those structure fire calls handled by PFD, since they are only staffing two engines.....


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## ITBITB13 (Jun 7, 2019)

In the city council meeting I could’ve sworn they said the PFD would staff a quint. 

Correct me if I’m wrong, but flat out refusing to provide mutual aid is not only morally wrong, but AGAINST THE LAW. 

Also, if I recall correctly, tons of firemen fighting against the PFD were up on the podium talking about how they love the city of placentia, serving it’s citizens, and whatnot. Now they lose, and everyone is throwing a fit. 

I remember throwing a similar fit when I was 8, and my older brother wouldn’t let me play GoldenEye with him and his friends.


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## DrParasite (Jun 7, 2019)

ITBITB13 said:


> In the city council meeting I could’ve sworn they said the PFD would staff a quint.


According to the article: "each of the two new fire *engines *coming to Placentia will be staffed by three full-time firefighters and a reserve firefighter. "  I would imagine if they had ladders on top, they would have said that 





ITBITB13 said:


> Correct me if I’m wrong, but flat out refusing to provide mutual aid is not only morally wrong, but AGAINST THE LAW.


you are wrong:  you have a legal obligation to protect your AHJ; unless you have a specific mutual aid contract in place, there is no requirement for you to provide assistance to others, especially if it puts your AHJ at risk (due to your resources being elsewhere and unable to provide services for your AHJ).


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## GMCmedic (Jun 7, 2019)

Not having a quint is going to hurt their ISO rating. I assume someone factored that in, if not, that is a cost as well, just not a cost the government has to eat.


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## jgmedic (Jun 7, 2019)

I posted the report from Placentia, and it states they will have a quint, an engine and a patrol. I do agree that if there are "non-promotables" at OCFA that have a shot to jump up, then maybe they would leave, I have serious doubts about how high the pay will be, if the city is looking to save money, paying all those guys a comparable salary to the rest of OC(outside of Fullerton), is not gonna fly.


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## RocketMedic (Jun 7, 2019)

I wonder if Lynch and Emergency are going to work together to integrate their employees on one another’s rigs and stuff


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## Jim37F (Jun 7, 2019)

Manhattan Beach's E21 looks very suspiciously like a Quint, yet they call it an Engine...


			Manhattan Beach Fire 21
		

How that affects things like ISO ratings (or anything else really), not a dang clue

If OCFA refuses to respond in a timely matter, isn't Placentia neighboring Anaheim and Brea with their own independent FDs? How do they feel about all this drama? On the other side of Brea is La Habra, an Orange County city that contracts with... LA County Fire Dept... it would be embarrassing for OCFA if LACo units in La Habra arrived in Placentia before OCFA did....


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## jgmedic (Jun 7, 2019)

Yeah that's a quint. I think OCFA can refuse to sign an auto aid agreement, but refusing to respond, i dont think thats legal.


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## Jim37F (Jun 7, 2019)

DrParasite said:


> I agree (although I think having career FFs only being EMR level is embarrassing, and if you want to be a career FD, you should at least be an EMT level department).


Not sure why.

Our EMR level is the same as EMT-B in LA/OC. I cant think of anything I did as a State certified EMT in LA I cannot do as an EMR here...
It's mostly a handful of senior career FF1s who are close to retiring as FF1s, but we cant even convince everyone in the Dept to take the NREMT. But once those guys retire, that will be standard for everyone (its a requirement to graduate Recruit Academy, has been for a little while, so all us newer guys have it).


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## Virgil (Jun 7, 2019)

Jim37F said:


> Not sure why.
> 
> Our EMR level is the same as EMT-B in LA/OC. I cant think of anything I did as a State certified EMT in LA I cannot do as an EMR here...
> It's mostly a handful of senior career FF1s who are close to retiring as FF1s, but we cant even convince everyone in the Dept to take the NREMT. But once those guys retire, that will be standard for everyone (its a requirement to graduate Recruit Academy, has been for a little while, so all us newer guys have it).



Interesting, I guess I never really had much thought on protocols out there. What would a Basic's scope look like if EMR is comparable to LACo?


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## Jim37F (Jun 7, 2019)

Virgil said:


> Interesting, I guess I never really had much thought on protocols out there. What would a Basic's scope look like if EMR is comparable to LACo?


I know they can start IVs and give some meds (at least under a medics direction.... I've seen a couple times the medic hopping into the drivers seat saying "yeah just start a line and give some Zofran") beyond that I'd have to look up specifics


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## DrParasite (Jun 7, 2019)

Jim37F said:


> Not sure why.
> 
> Our EMR level is the same as EMT-B in LA/OC. I cant think of anything I did as a State certified EMT in LA I cannot do as an EMR here...


*sigh* it's not always about what you can do, it's about what you know.....  One day we will get away from the skills based thinking.

 Even if you look up NREMT, the practical exams are pretty much the same for EMR and EMT (I think there is one minor difference when it comes to administering oxygen).   I don't know anything about Hawaii's EMR program, or the LA/OC EMT program, but I imagine they are differences in length right?  My upcoming EMT class is ~240 hours, with multiple tests, lots of reading, and not enough hands on real world clinical time.

I was teaching an EMT con ed class on OBGYN emergencies for a local volunteer FD, and in my class were 10 county certified first responders, and 3 EMTs.   the 10 county first responders had "deer in the headlights" looks after the 3 hour class was completed.  I asked afterwards what their first responder course consisted of, and was told it was CPR and an 8 or 16 hour first responder course..... now i understand the deer in the headlights, because they had never heard of this stuff.

It's not always about the skills you can do, it's the knowledge you have as to why you are doing them.





Jim37F said:


> It's mostly a handful of senior career FF1s who are close to retiring as FF1s, but we cant even convince everyone in the Dept to take the NREMT. But once those guys retire, that will be standard for everyone (its a requirement to graduate Recruit Academy, has been for a little while, so all us newer guys have it).


Yes you can.  It's actually quite easy to.  Your fire chief tells those old timers that, as a condition of employment, they need to be certified as EMTs, and maintain that certification for the duration of their career here.  They have two years to do it, otherwise, they are terminated.  It's not that hard.

You just said the EMR is the same as the LA EMT, so it should be easy for these veteran firefighters to complete the class.

And before you say it, if they are just first responding, and spending 5 minutes with the patient before EMS arrives, than it won't make much of a difference.  but if you get that trainwreck, or that complicated patient, or are requested to be the extra hands to help EMS out going to the hospital..... It's still about raising standards, being professional, and serving the citizens better.





Jim37F said:


> I know they can start IVs and give some meds (at least under a medics direction.... I've seen a couple times the medic hopping into the drivers seat saying "yeah just start a line and give some Zofran") beyond that I'd have to look up specifics


Interesting... Zofran is explicitly listed as a paramedic only drug, because of the need to get a 12 lead to confirm no QT widening, but I wish it was BLS because that complication is so rare prehospitally.....


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## Jim37F (Jun 7, 2019)

Well as far as our dept. is concerened (minus the handful of older dinosaurs) our EMR training _IS _National Registry EMT training. Passing NREMT is a graduation requirement from the Academy. So we still have EMT training for first responder work. Which is appropriate as we're a non transporting first responder only department, assisting a career municipal third service EMS Department. 

Which is a different model from LA/OC where Placentia FD will presumably still staff at least one Fire/Medic on their engines to go on every toe pain call and be the medic in charge on scene until they turf to Lynch/Emergency for transport.


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## rescue1 (Jun 7, 2019)

FoleyArtist said:


> Does anyone know if FD even has to respond or will EMS be handled by EMS? How does it work in third service states/counties? FD for certain criteria like full arrests and MVAs?



My third service in PA got fire for confirmed rescues, things on fire, and highway calls for blocking, nothing else. Accidents, cardiac arrests, etc got EMS and police only. Worked pretty well, and having worked in systems with FD first response I vastly preferred just having EMS on scene--same agency, no one tries to take charge, etc.


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## CCCSD (Jun 7, 2019)

Fire rolls on all medical aid calls, otherwise their budgets would be cut by 60-70%.


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## ITBITB13 (Jun 8, 2019)

DrParasite said:


> According to the article: "each of the two new fire *engines *coming to Placentia will be staffed by three full-time firefighters and a reserve firefighter. "  I would imagine if they had ladders on top, they would have said that you are wrong:  you have a legal obligation to protect your AHJ; unless you have a specific mutual aid contract in place, there is no requirement for you to provide assistance to others, especially if it puts your AHJ at risk (due to your resources being elsewhere and unable to provide services for your AHJ).



Could’ve sworn it was a quint, engine, and patrol. 

And during the meeting they touched on mutual aid vs automatic aid. I thought mutual aid was essentially illegal unless you could justify not having the resources, and automatic aid required a contract. 



RocketMedic said:


> I wonder if Lynch and Emergency are going to work together to integrate their employees on one another’s rigs and stuff



Another good question. Anyone know anything about this?



Jim37F said:


> If OCFA refuses to respond in a timely matter, isn't Placentia neighboring Anaheim and Brea with their own independent FDs? How do they feel about all this drama? On the other side of Brea is La Habra, an Orange County city that contracts with... LA County Fire Dept... it would be embarrassing for OCFA if LACo units in La Habra arrived in Placentia before OCFA did....



A placentia City council member (the one who presented the PowerPoint) said they already had aid contracts with other neighboring cities. As far as LACo units responding, I’m sure OCFA would love the increased presence of  LACo resources. 


CCCSD said:


> Fire rolls on all medical aid calls, otherwise their budgets would be cut by 60-70%.



Probably the biggest reason why OCFA is so against this whole thing. It’s gonna save the city money, and their biggest nightmare would be for other cities to catch wind of it and pursue their own private FD with private ALS/BLS resources..


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## EMT Rookie (Jun 8, 2019)

DrParasite said:


> I think that's a pretty safe bet, however, if the pay and benefits are comparable, and they have a FF who is offered a captain position, or a captain who is offered a chief's position, especially if their chances of getting it at OCFA are slim..... Again, I think it will be offered, but I agree, I don't think many will take it, unless they really want to get off the ambulances.....
> according to the article, it was 3 FT FFs and 1 reserve FF, and only two engines.... no ladder was mentioned.  I'm guessing BLS only, as they have lynch in a non-transporting ALS QRV to handle the EMS callsI agree (although I think having career FFs only being EMR level is embarrassing, and if you want to be a career FD, you should at least be an EMT level department).   A fully staffed EMS agency should be able to handle the majority of EMS calls without the FD to hold their hand, or stop the clock.  Alas, too many places will over staff the FD first responders to compensate for an understaffed EMS system.... But that's another topic for another day...
> So they are going to send a lynch QRV with 2 ALS personnel and a 3 person BLS engine to all ALS coded calls?  I can understand going on Echos (cardiac arrest and such, when you need muscle and hands, not necessarily ALS providers), or ALS calls if they are closer than the ALS squads (which shouldn't happen in most cases), but going on all calls sounds kinda redundant and wasteful to me.
> That would be my one area of concern.  If the new Placentia FD had a major incident, OCFA would refuse to respond due to political BS, despite being the closest mutual aid provider.  Still have that question about who is providing a ladder/special service for those structure fire calls handled by PFD, since they are only staffing two engines.....



No, the city is getting a quint to go with the two engines - one of the engines will be an unstaffed reserve engine.


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## dbui9 (Jun 8, 2019)

Jim37F said:


> What sort of org/staffing is the new Placentia FD looking at? I.e. 3 or 4x Engines with 3 or 4 FFs plus a Ladder (or relying on OCFA Mutual Aid for one?) Just curious? I'm assuming at least one fire medic on each engine?
> 
> Or is EAS losing Placentia totally and Lynch transports everything?



Placentia Fire Station 1 (Currently OCFA Station 35) will be staffed with:

Engine 1: Fire Captain/EMT, Engineer/EMT, FF/EMT, Reserve FF/EMT
Placentia Fire Station 2 (Currently OCFA Station 34) will be staffed with:

Quint (RFP calls it a Truck?): Fire Captain/EMT, Engineer/EMT, FF/EMT, Reserve FF/EMT
Type 6 Wildland Engine/QRV: 2x Reserve FF/EMT to respond to calls that don't require an engine 
Reserve Engine: Unstaffed - used for ISO and training purposes. RFP states it can be staffed with 4x Reserve FF if situation arises.
Not sure where they'll house these vehicles but they will also have:

Command Incident Vehicle
One Ton Pickup Truck
9 Passenger Van

So as of now, EAS still holds the BLS transporting contract in the city until May 31st 2020. Lynch EMS will provide ALS medical services and FD will respond if required for high priority calls when they take over in July 2020 I believe. I'm not too sure what happens when EAS's contract is up. I'm guessing that Lynch will both handle the ALS and BLS services in the city. EAS will be cut down to Yorba Linda and Brea BLS transports. EAS's CEO, COO, and Operations Manager were at the city hall meeting and I'm sure they weren't too pleased with what happened.


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## wtferick (Jun 8, 2019)

dbui9 said:


> Placentia Fire Station 1 (Currently OCFA Station 35) will be staffed with:
> 
> Engine 1: Fire Captain/EMT, Engineer/EMT, FF/EMT, Reserve FF/EMT
> Placentia Fire Station 2 (Currently OCFA Station 34) will be staffed with:
> ...


Yorba Linda would be the only OCFA City that Care does not operate? I wonder if this would cost a monopoly issue for Care.


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## dbui9 (Jun 8, 2019)

wtferick said:


> Yorba Linda would be the only OCFA City that Care does not operate? I wonder if this would cost a monopoly issue for Care.



I know that CARE has medics in LA County, and I'm pretty sure OCFA told CARE not to put in a bid cause that'd put them at odds with all their BLS contracts. Emergency's CEO went up to the mic and first thing he said was he was not approached/intimidated by OCFA to not submit a bid. Pretty sure he was told not to. Weird that he said that because EAS doesn't operate an ALS/Medic program.


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## wtferick (Jun 8, 2019)

dbui9 said:


> I know that CARE has medics in LA County, and I'm pretty sure OCFA told CARE not to put in a bid cause that'd put them at odds with all their BLS contracts. Emergency's CEO went up to the mic and first thing he said was he was not approached/intimidated by OCFA to not submit a bid. Pretty sure he was told not to. Weird that he said that because EAS doesn't operate an ALS/Medic program.


I'm pretty sure Care is going to push for Medics in the OC after this.


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## deadhead (Jun 8, 2019)

dbui9 said:


> I know that CARE has medics in LA County, and I'm pretty sure OCFA told CARE not to put in a bid cause that'd put them at odds with all their BLS contracts. Emergency's CEO went up to the mic and first thing he said was he was not approached/intimidated by OCFA to not submit a bid. Pretty sure he was told not to. Weird that he said that because EAS doesn't operate an ALS/Medic program.


Hi.   Just to offer a couple of points of clarification. 1.  The first thing our CEO said at the council meeting was that we would have liked to have submitted a bid, but that the numbers did not match up for us and that is why we did not respond.  The very last thing he said was that neither the OCFA or the firefighters union threatened us or told us not to bid. They didn't and we have had a very good relationship with both for over 32 years.  I've been involved in the process all along, and neither the OCFA or the local have approached us or tried to intimidate us.  2. You're correct.  We don't currently operate a ALS program.  However, we were qualified to bid based on our past paramedic experience in LA County.  We simple did not respond to the RFP because in our case the numbers didn't work out.


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## deadhead (Jun 8, 2019)

Jim37F said:


> What sort of org/staffing is the new Placentia FD looking at? I.e. 3 or 4x Engines with 3 or 4 FFs plus a Ladder (or relying on OCFA Mutual Aid for one?) Just curious? I'm assuming at least one fire medic on each engine?
> 
> As far as the EMS goes, dec sounds like an interesting model, just skimming the other posts, are they really looking at a private to be a non transporting squad? With a second private being transport? I.e. is a Placentia FD engine gonna show up with a Lynch ALS unit AND an EAS BLS unit, with Lynch medic riding in on the EAS ambulance for ALS transports? Or cancel EAS and transport themselves, while EAS only takes BLS transports? (a la Seattle Medic One and AMR?)
> 
> ...


Hi.  EAS is not losing Placentia.  We are still the emergency 911 transport provider for the city and we intend to remain their provider.  The contract for Placentia (and also Yorba Linda and some unincorporated territory) is administered by the County HCA.  It's a completely separate animal.


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## deadhead (Jun 8, 2019)

wtferick said:


> It sounds like they are dropping Emergency Ambulance completely. Not sure.
> 
> As to mutual aid from OCFA. They would honestly only really be getting help from Yorba Linda and Villa Park. All the other cities are Metro Net (City Departments)
> 
> Good for Lynch nonetheless.


wtferick, No. they are not dropping EAS.  The contract is strictly for ALS response and treatment, not for transport.  The transport contract is administered by the County and is completely separate.


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## dbui9 (Jun 8, 2019)

deadhead said:


> Hi.   Just to offer a couple of points of clarification. 1.  The first thing our CEO said at the council meeting was that we would have liked to have submitted a bid, but that the numbers did not match up for us and that is why we did not respond.  The very last thing he said was that neither the OCFA or the firefighters union threatened us or told us not to bid. They didn't and we have had a very good relationship with both for over 32 years.  I've been involved in the process all along, and neither the OCFA or the local have approached us or tried to intimidate us.  2. You're correct.  We don't currently operate a ALS program.  However, we were qualified to bid based on our past paramedic experience in LA County.  We simple did not respond to the RFP because in our case the numbers didn't work out.


Ah, I see. Didn't even know EAS had medics in LA County. Are you guys for sure going to stay as the BLS provider for the city? Will that mean you guys will be transporting with 2 EMTs for a BLS transport and 2 EMTs + 1 Lynch PM for an ALS transport to the hospital? Thanks for the clarification.


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## deadhead (Jun 8, 2019)

RocketMedic said:


> View attachment 4482
> 
> So very wasteful to use ambulances as non-transporting vehicles. They could do the same thing with like a Ford Focus or something if they care that much about costs and Emergency is still transporting.





dbui9 said:


> Ah, I see. Didn't even know EAS had medics in LA County. Are you guys for sure going to stay as the BLS provider for the city? Will that mean you guys will be transporting with 2 EMTs for a BLS transport and 2 EMTs + 1 Lynch PM for an ALS transport to the hospital? Thanks for the clarification.


Yes.  We had medics for many years and we may reimplement our program. We are the BLS transport agency through June 2020 and are in the RFP process at present.  We are certainly hoping to stay as the transport provider. We've been doing it in Placentia for 25 years and it's been a pleasure serving the City, and also working with the OCFA.  If we retain our contract we'll work with Lynch exactly the same way be do with OCFA and BFD.    We would provide the transport and they would provide the follow up.  I'd suspect that in the case of a critical patient both Lynch PM's would follow up and someone else would be tasked with driving their unit to the receiving facility.  Who knows how things will work out in a year.  It's going to be interesting to say the least.


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## Jim37F (Jun 8, 2019)

@deadhead So if this all goes thru, are we gonna see a Lynch ALS unit and an Emergency BLS unit respond on all medicals? And if so, would Lynch transport ALS calls while EAS goes available or Lynch medics riding in the EAS unit like the current squad model?

Or based on EMD at dispatch, only send Lynch to ALS coded calls and EAS to BLS coded calls?

(Edit: looks like you may have answered this in previous post while I was still typing this lol)


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## dbui9 (Jun 8, 2019)

deadhead said:


> Yes.  We had medics for many years and we may reimplement our program. We are the BLS transport agency through June 2020 and are in the RFP process at present.  We are certainly hoping to stay as the transport provider. We've been doing it in Placentia for 25 years and it's been a pleasure serving the City, and also working with the OCFA.  If we retain our contract we'll work with Lynch exactly the same way be do with OCFA and BFD.    We would provide the transport and they would provide the follow up.  I'd suspect that in the case of a critical patient both Lynch PM's would follow up and someone else would be tasked with driving their unit to the receiving facility.  Who knows how things will work out in a year.  It's going to be interesting to say the least.


Is there a link to EAS's RFP? I've been reading all the RFPs for Placentia on their website so I'm just curious. It'll be interesting to see the integration of EAS and Lynch on these calls. What do you think about the whole situation about Lynch getting the ALS contract? Have you ever worked with any of their medics/emts?


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## Amberlamps916 (Jun 8, 2019)

How is this going to work in terms of billing for Lynch? If they don't transport BLS patients then what is the financial incentive for them to do this? 

Just curious because I've never seen a situation like this with two private ambulances responding to the same incident.


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## deadhead (Jun 8, 2019)

dbui9 said:


> Is there a link to EAS's RFP? I've been reading all the RFPs for Placentia on their website so I'm just curious. It'll be interesting to see the integration of EAS and Lynch on these calls. What do you think about the whole situation about Lynch getting the ALS contract? Have you ever worked with any of their medics/emts?


If you are referring to the proposal - EAS has not submitted it yet.  Our response and any others may be available through the HCA after they are awarded.  The RFP can be found on the OC BOS website.  Assuming we will retain the area - we would work with Lynch similar to our relationship with OCFA.  We haven't had any interactions with their paramedics but expect to have a professional relationship with them.


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## deadhead (Jun 8, 2019)

Jim37F said:


> @deadhead So if this all goes thru, are we gonna see a Lynch ALS unit and an Emergency BLS unit respond on all medicals? And if so, would Lynch transport ALS calls while EAS goes available or Lynch medics riding in the EAS unit like the current squad model?
> 
> Or based on EMD at dispatch, only send Lynch to ALS coded calls and EAS to BLS coded calls?
> 
> (Edit: looks like you may have answered this in previous post while I was still typing this lol)





Addrobo said:


> How is this going to work in terms of billing for Lynch? If they don't transport BLS patients then what is the financial incentive for them to do this?
> 
> Just curious because I've never seen a situation like this with two private ambulances responding to the same incident.


Good question.  I haven't seen same situation in over 35 years in EMS, but our business is constantly evolving. For Lynch the financial incentive for BLS seems to be in the form of the subsidy they will receive from the City. The contracted BLS transport provider (whether it's EAS or someone else) is responsible for billing, and as with the FD's, they can negotiate a contract with Lynch for bundled billing. However, under these kind of contracts the BLS transport provider would be limited to reimbursing the ALS provider only its direct cost of ALS services and any pass through revenue would have to represent a fair and reasonable payment to your provider for their role as an ALS first responder.


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## Uclabruin103 (Jun 13, 2019)

Someone is trusting Lynch with 911?  I worked there a few years ago, and it was a joke of a medic program.  Every shift I'd find expired drugs in the box, monitor batteries that'd last less than an hour, Zoll M-series monitors, no AEDs on their BLS units.  Don't get me started on being dispatched to chest pains, stroke-like symptoms, and breathing problems with 40+ minutes ETAs.  Someone has to be getting a payout to trust this company with care of their citizens.


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## ITBITB13 (Jun 14, 2019)

Uclabruin103 said:


> Someone is trusting Lynch with 911?  I worked there a few years ago, and it was a joke of a medic program.  Every shift I'd find expired drugs in the box, monitor batteries that'd last less than an hour, Zoll M-series monitors, no AEDs on their BLS units.  Don't get me started on being dispatched to chest pains, stroke-like symptoms, and breathing problems with 40+ minutes ETAs.  Someone has to be getting a payout to trust this company with care of their citizens.



Wow. If this is true I can only imagine the stories.. You’re the kind of guy that should’ve gone up and talked at the city council meeting. 

Well I know OCEMS is pretty strict on stuff, and constantly go out and inspect ambulances. So I’m sure Lynch will be subject to the same scrutiny. If they still operate like that,  I’m sure they’ll learn real quick after they get caught the first time and everyone finds out.


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## VentMonkey (Jun 14, 2019)

Uclabruin103 said:


> Someone is trusting Lynch with 911?  I worked there a few years ago, and it was a joke of a medic program.  Every shift I'd find expired drugs in the box, monitor batteries that'd last less than an hour, Zoll M-series monitors, no AEDs on their BLS units.  Don't get me started on being dispatched to chest pains, stroke-like symptoms, and breathing problems with 40+ minutes ETAs.  Someone has to be getting a payout to trust this company with care of their citizens.


It sounds like they’re just like any other non-fire ALS program in LA and OC. As an aside, it took a while, but I am glad we’re finally going to integrate the AutoPulse throughout our company and fire agencies.


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## FoleyArtist (Jun 24, 2019)

Uclabruin103 said:


> Someone is trusting Lynch with 911?  I worked there a few years ago, and it was a joke of a medic program.  Every shift I'd find expired drugs in the box, monitor batteries that'd last less than an hour, Zoll M-series monitors, no AEDs on their BLS units.  Don't get me started on being dispatched to chest pains, stroke-like symptoms, and breathing problems with 40+ minutes ETAs.  Someone has to be getting a payout to trust this company with care of their citizens.



I worked there in the last 3 years and by then Lynch had all Zoll X monitors that uploads everything to your epr. all rigs have portable wifi.  you were given 2 batteries per unit but only needed one to get through a 11 hr shift and that's even if you ran calls all day. 5-7 als ift calls. only on 2-3 occasions did I find expired meds during my time there and that's because someone prior was not doing the first of the month checks.

In my own opinion there is/was an active effort from certain employee(s) to try to make Lynch's als program as legitimate  as a third service from say ATCEMS or NOLA. or frankly to match other bigger private amb companies footprint on the industry. push for power gurneys, uniform changes, patch redesigns and medic rockers, badges, etc. but would fall on deaf ears ($$$) or would be poorly executed with inferior products than initial proposed.

everything else stated by uclabruin is pretty much on the level. I just wanted to clarify some dated information.

I am very interested to see how this plays out not only for Lynch but for changing the tide of how EMS has operated in OC for decades. There definitely needs to be power shifts within the company for this program to succeed, dispatching needs to be relegated to PD or metro net, etc. and those 911 units better not be pulled to run ALS IFT's because "it hasn't ran a medical aid in x hours and they're on the clock."


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## dbui9 (Jun 24, 2019)

FoleyArtist said:


> I worked there in the last 3 years and by then Lynch had all Zoll X monitors that uploads everything to your epr. all rigs have portable wifi.  you were given 2 batteries per unit but only needed one to get through a 11 hr shift and that's even if you ran calls all day. 5-7 als ift calls. only on 2-3 occasions did I find expired meds during my time there and that's because someone prior was not doing the first of the month checks.
> 
> In my own opinion there is/was an active effort from certain employee(s) to try to make Lynch's als program as legitimate  as a third service from say ATCEMS or NOLA. or frankly to match other bigger private amb companies footprint on the industry. push for power gurneys, uniform changes, patch redesigns and medic rockers, badges, etc. but would fall on deaf ears ($$$) or would be poorly executed with inferior products than initial proposed.
> 
> ...



Just wanted to throw out some more info about what you said. Lynch's RFP stated that they were doing uniform changes (probably includes new patches as well I hope) for the new 911 medics. Placentia's Fire RFP said dispatching would be handled by the current city's police dispatch after going through additional training. The 911 units will be on a kelly schedule where they will be stationed at the fire station and will not be pulled to run IFT-ALS calls. Only IFT-ALS medics who are also trained for 911 ALS will be pulled from IFT if needed, not the other way around.


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## FoleyArtist (Jun 24, 2019)

dbui9 said:


> Just wanted to throw out some more info about what you said. Lynch's RFP stated that they were doing uniform changes (probably includes new patches as well I hope) for the new 911 medics. Placentia's Fire RFP said dispatching would be handled by the current city's police dispatch after going through additional training. The 911 units will be on a kelly schedule where they will be stationed at the fire station and will not be pulled to run IFT-ALS calls. Only IFT-ALS medics who are also trained for 911 ALS will be pulled from IFT if needed, not the other way around.



I'm naturally a pessimist. In the before time I heard bowers used to be in house with Vernon fd when they did als. they'd regularly get pulled for ifts and contributed to the loss of the contract. Bls ift units would have to respond code 3 from white memorial or the Westminster car from their oc sister company.

when the schedule needs to be staffed it needs to be staff. to the public, no one will know the 911 trained medic from the ift. the new medic from the seasoned medic. you can always grab a spare "loaner" uniform shirt from the closet and fill that seat. there have been incidents where ALS Emt training was non existent cuz we need bodies. I'm not saying that's soley a Lynch problem these are a private ambulance company problem.

culture change. as long as private amb companies treat the field staff as expendable people will still leave for FD, LEO, RN, PA, etc. even some municipality AO's because benefits and retirement. 

history can repeat itself from the mistake of past amb companies in similar position, and Lynch will be under the microscope.

I truly wish Lynch the best, but I hypothesize after the first year someone like Falck/AMR will come in and say that's a good run (good proof of concept that's happening everywhere else) but here's how we can do it better for your city.


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## VentMonkey (Jun 24, 2019)

FoleyArtist said:


> In the before time I heard bowers used to be in house with Vernon fd when they did als. they'd regularly get pulled for ifts and contributed to the loss of the contract. Bls ift units would have to respond code 3 from white memorial or the Westminster car from their oc sister company.


And in the before the before time AMR was in house with them. They were Cerritos division paramedics assigned there. They had Vernon FD uniforms, helmets, etc. etc. and ran out of Vernon FD ambulances with no sign of them being AMR medics aside their nifty little badges.

Once they botched that program they were slowly integrated into the rest of the division (one became a supe IIRC, and another a training coordinator). Yup, good ole privatized EMS...


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## Tigger (Jun 25, 2019)

How much money is this Lynch company going to get from the city to provide this service? They are going to have a hard time billing patients for their services.



DrParasite said:


> Interesting... Zofran is explicitly listed as a paramedic only drug, because of the need to get a 12 lead to confirm no QT widening, but I wish it was BLS because that complication is so rare prehospitally.....


Perhaps in some places, it is on standing orders for every Colorado EMT.


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## Carlos Danger (Jun 25, 2019)

DrParasite said:


> Zofran is explicitly listed as a paramedic only drug, because of the need to get a 12 lead to confirm no QT widening, but I wish it was BLS because that complication is so rare prehospitally.....


Who requires an EKG before administering zofran?


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## rescue1 (Jun 25, 2019)

Requiring an EKG to administer Zofran seems to me to be at the same level of doing an endoscopy after giving ibuprofen.

I'm pretty sure the complication of QT prolongation was seen when patients were given IV doses of around 32mg, and it was still not terribly significant.


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## FoleyArtist (Jun 25, 2019)

View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram









						County's Private Ambulance Firms Have History of Past Penalties
					

Orange County officials, in their recent push to introduce private paramedics, have turned to ambulance firms of years of labor violations and financial difficulties, records show.




					voiceofoc.org
				




Just the headlines posted  When its really from 2013. Whats the plan here? Create doubt right?


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## DesertMedic66 (Jun 25, 2019)

FoleyArtist said:


> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A fire department in CA trying to discredit a private ambulance company? Shocking.... /s


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## FoleyArtist (Jun 25, 2019)

DesertMedic66 said:


> A fire department in CA trying to discredit a private ambulance company? Shocking.... /s



Right, but does that still work in this day and age? Theres so many different ways to obtain information and absorb content.


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## ITBITB13 (Jun 25, 2019)

FoleyArtist said:


> View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Most definitely.



DesertMedic66 said:


> A fire department in CA trying to discredit a private ambulance company? Shocking.... /s


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## DrParasite (Jun 25, 2019)

Remi said:


> Who requires an EKG before administering zofran?


It's listed in the flowchart for my local EMS protocol, of which I am not a part of.... UP 3 in case you are interested... I am sure others in the states do the same thing


rescue1 said:


> Requiring an EKG to administer Zofran seems to me to be at the same level of doing an endoscopy after giving ibuprofen.
> 
> I'm pretty sure the complication of QT prolongation was seen when patients were given IV doses of around 32mg, and it was still not terribly significant.


No arguments there... still a decision above my paygrade...


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## DesertMedic66 (Jun 25, 2019)

FoleyArtist said:


> Right, but does that still work in this day and age? Theres so many different ways to obtain information and absorb content.


Yes and no. For the people who only read the headlines, yes. For those who actually read the article, probably not. 

For several months to half a year San Bernardino County Firefighter Association was going after AMR on almost all Facebook and Instagram posts about response time and system par levels, they also started to go after ICEMA. AMR and ICEMA fired back at them with different articles about the fire department not providing them with any of their response time data or mutual aid requests. After that happened there has been no more posts from them about AMR or ICEMA. 

I may have created a meme that got me blocked on their Facebook page...


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## FoleyArtist (Jun 26, 2019)

View this content on Instagram            View this content on Instagram


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## ITBITB13 (Jun 27, 2019)

DesertMedic66 said:


> Yes and no. For the people who only read the headlines, yes. For those who actually read the article, probably not.
> 
> For several months to half a year San Bernardino County Firefighter Association was going after AMR on almost all Facebook and Instagram posts about response time and system par levels, they also started to go after ICEMA. AMR and ICEMA fired back at them with different articles about the fire department not providing them with any of their response time data or mutual aid requests. After that happened there has been no more posts from them about AMR or ICEMA.
> 
> I may have created a meme that got me blocked on their Facebook page...



You can’t say you have a good meme and not post it on here.


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## GMCmedic (Jun 27, 2019)

Eww the impact vent.


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## saltymedic21 (Jun 27, 2019)

Placentia's New Interim Fire Chief - OC Register

Placentia Hires Fire Chief to Lead Transition - OC Breeze

Placentia just hired an interim fire chief to get their department started up. The city went with Scott Ferguson - Murrieta's Fire Chief (past fire chief now I guess). It says he also worked as a chief for Santa Monica and Manhattan Beach as well. The article shows that he'll be paid 187,500 by the city under his contract.


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## VentMonkey (Jun 27, 2019)

GMCmedic said:


> Eww the impact vent.


Lol, I hear ya man, but at least they’re trying. I say good on them, and I hope they show up OCFA’s “paramedical rescue” care.


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## DesertMedic66 (Jun 27, 2019)

VentMonkey said:


> Lol, I hear ya man, but at least they’re trying. I say good on them, and I hope they show up OCFA’s “paramedical rescue” care.


This. Lynch has been putting in some major effort it trying to become a decent IFT company. They now have ventilators and IV pumps and are able to transfer a decent amount of medications on the pump. I do know they have medics who work for them who have a lot of 911 experience. We have some of their medics who still work part time at my 911 ground job. OFCA is trying to make it sound like the city is replacing trauma doctors for CNAs. For medical calls all you are really trading is one shoulder patch for another.


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## GMCmedic (Jun 27, 2019)

VentMonkey said:


> Lol, I hear ya man, but at least they’re trying. I say good on them, and I hope they show up OCFA’s “paramedical rescue” care.


I wonder with my current vent knowledge (albeit still limited but worlds ahead of the medics at my old AMR shop) if that vent would be less of a headache now than it was 5 years ago. 

Im just convinced that vent is not good for sick people.


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## VentMonkey (Jun 27, 2019)

GMCmedic said:


> Im just convinced that vent is not good for sick people.


I highly doubt that their transport times to tertiary centers will yield negative outcomes. Their coverage area is densely populated.

And, FWIW even most of these self professed “vent gurus” will admit that the A/C vs. SIMV debate hardly comes down to overall outcomes. Patient comfort? Absolutely. Detrimental effects? TBD.


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## Carlos Danger (Jun 28, 2019)

GMCmedic said:


> Im just convinced that vent is not good for sick people.



Why not?


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## GMCmedic (Jun 28, 2019)

Remi said:


> Why not?


Maybe its PTSD from all the alarms I heard back then.

Maybe its that its 100% pressure trigger. 

Maybe a lack of adeqaute sedation protocols at the time. 

Like I said above, with current knowledge Id like to see if the vent is easier to deal with. Back then we would take patients out of the quiet ICU rooms in AC mode and stick them in the back of an ambulance, not knowing at the time that SIMV was probably better for them in that environment.

One of the ICUs we regularly transport out of uses the zoll branded impact with good success on sick patients. Those patients typically have a RASS of -5 and/or still paralyzed, which likely contributes to that success. 

I tend to echo Eric Bauers thoughts that the Impact was developed for the military and in that subset of patients it is good, in chronicly ill obstructive patients, there are much better options. 

Tl;Dr my opinion is mostly derived from an overall bad experience that could be attributed to several factors that are no fault of the vent and im likely unfairly blaming the vent. Ive found that the revel is just miles ahead.


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## RocketMedic (Jun 28, 2019)

I'm still expected to put living people on an Autovent 3000, which is barbaric and stupid, so Lynch is better than Anonymous Texan Employer @ this point for that.


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## EMT Rookie (Jun 28, 2019)

Placentia Alleges OC Fire Authority Misconduct After City Leaves Agency
					

Two Placentia Police lieutenants alleged misconduct by Orange County Fire Authority firefighters Thursday, detailing incidents that happened within days of the City Council voting to form its own fire department.




					voiceofoc.org
				




Wow, just wow.  OCFA fire captain delayed the transport of an elderly patient with a head wound because he didn’t want Lynch handling the transport and instead had emergency ambulance dispatched Code 3 as they were 30 minutes away.


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## EMT Rookie (Jun 28, 2019)

Placentia alleges retaliation, ‘unprofessional behavior’ after vote to quit Orange County Fire Authority
					

Union representing OCFA firefighters says it was unaware of incidents where patient care may have been delayed.




					www.ocregister.com


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## VentMonkey (Jun 28, 2019)

Overall, this is good. It’s unfortunate for the patient who was dealt this card, but I think we know it’s nothing new.

What is new is how it’s being brought to the attention of the general public in regards to the FD’s piss poor care. So, overall, it’s good.


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## RocketMedic (Jun 28, 2019)

EMT Rookie said:


> Placentia Alleges OC Fire Authority Misconduct After City Leaves Agency
> 
> 
> Two Placentia Police lieutenants alleged misconduct by Orange County Fire Authority firefighters Thursday, detailing incidents that happened within days of the City Council voting to form its own fire department.
> ...


“Professionals”


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## ITBITB13 (Jun 29, 2019)

RocketMedic said:


> “Professionals”


But-hurt “Professionals”.


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## wirk242 (Jun 29, 2019)

EMT Rookie said:


> Placentia Alleges OC Fire Authority Misconduct After City Leaves Agency
> 
> 
> Two Placentia Police lieutenants alleged misconduct by Orange County Fire Authority firefighters Thursday, detailing incidents that happened within days of the City Council voting to form its own fire department.
> ...



Soooo, they had to wait for a ambulance to respond to a call in their own operating area. Lynch doesn't do 911 transport in placentia, emergency does. If anything this is emergencys fault for taking 30 mins to get on scene.  

I don't know OCs system but maybe it was a code 2 response for emergency. I doubt this pt was circling the drain if the SNF didn't even call 911. 

There are operating areas for a reason. If not, ok popwhat's to stop Lynch from dispatching their own bls boxes to calls and snake transports from emergency if they are not on scene by the time they are ready to transport.


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## wtferick (Jun 29, 2019)

I hope other cities start to look into opting out of OCFA. It's all the same service. 

I also doubt Emergency was 30 minutes out. From past history, a Care unit would end up responding if Emergency had no units, or if they had such an ETA like 30 mins.


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## jgmedic (Jun 29, 2019)

wirk242 said:


> Soooo, they had to wait for a ambulance to respond to a call in their own operating area. Lynch doesn't do 911 transport in placentia, emergency does. If anything this is emergencys fault for taking 30 mins to get on scene.
> 
> I don't know OCs system but maybe it was a code 2 response for emergency. I doubt this pt was circling the drain if the SNF didn't even call 911.
> 
> There are operating areas for a reason. If not, ok popwhat's to stop Lynch from dispatching their own bls boxes to calls and snake transports from emergency if they are not on scene by the time they are ready to transport.


LOL. Snf didn't even call 911??? Dude, that is SOP for a lot of these places. **** operating areas, its an ambulance. and it's not ALS, OCFA is sending their own medics, also, OCFA dispatches all ambos code 2 and then you can be upgraded.  The whole OC system is garbage. Ive have personally responded to a scene with a Lynch rig on scene and the OCFA engine elected to wait for us(Care), anyone else see a problem here???


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## wtferick (Jun 29, 2019)

jgmedic said:


> LOL. Snf didn't even call 911??? Dude, that is SOP for a lot of these places. **** operating areas, its an ambulance. and it's not ALS, OCFA is sending their own medics, also, OCFA dispatches all ambos code 2 and then you can be upgraded.  The whole OC system is garbage. Ive have personally responded to a scene with a Lynch rig on scene and the OCFA engine elected to wait for us(Care), anyone else see a problem here???


OCFA waiting on an ambulance that has two EMTs aboard.. while an ambulance on scene already has to two EMTs aboard. Such a joke of a system.


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## ITBITB13 (Jun 29, 2019)

wtferick said:


> OCFA waiting on an ambulance that has two EMTs aboard.. while an ambulance on scene already has to two EMTs aboard. Such a joke of a system.



In LA County if a patient is a trauma like the story says, they LACoFD medic would just transport with the IFT ambulance.


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## wtferick (Jun 29, 2019)

ITBITB13 said:


> In LA County if a patient is a trauma like the story says, they LACoFD medic would just transport with the IFT ambulance.


Don't get us started with LACoFD.


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## DesertMedic66 (Jun 29, 2019)

wtferick said:


> Don't get us started with LACoFD.


Haha. It’s like comparing one septic tank to another.


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## jgmedic (Jun 29, 2019)

The first time a FF picked up my bags and walked them back to my rig I almost lost it. Coming from OC/LA, it was such a culture shock, in a good way.


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## RocketMedic (Jun 29, 2019)

jgmedic said:


> The first time a FF picked up my bags and walked them back to my rig I almost lost it. Coming from OC/LA, it was such a culture shock, in a good way.


Where at?


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## DesertMedic66 (Jun 29, 2019)

jgmedic said:


> The first time a FF picked up my bags and walked them back to my rig I almost lost it. Coming from OC/LA, it was such a culture shock, in a good way.


I worked with a female partner who loved to flirt with the firefighters. I never had to carry a bag or lift anything when I was working with her. Lift with your firefighters not your back.


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## VentMonkey (Jun 29, 2019)

RocketMedic said:


> Where at?


Bakersfield. No female partners required. They’re typically genuinely helpful.


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## jgmedic (Jun 29, 2019)

VentMonkey said:


> Bakersfield. No female partners required. They’re typically genuinely helpful.



Yup BFD and KCFD both. When I left for AMR Hemet, HFD used to do it too, and even some CDF crews, especially if they saw my partner and I were busy. Even now, my FD transports, and as the Engineer, I try to get the box boys'  bags and as much of the PCR as I can before they leave. All my experience let me know exactly who I didnt want to be.


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## wirk242 (Jun 29, 2019)

jgmedic said:


> Ive have personally responded to a scene with a Lynch rig on scene and the OCFA engine elected to wait for us(Care), anyone else see a problem here???



That's how they get paid homie. That's how those companies makes money.

I have been dispatched to call, get cancelled because it's in AMRs area and pass them 5 mins later 
going the opposite way.

Policies are policies.

BTW not a ocfa apologist and have no interest working for them.  Just seeing alot of hate on both sides. Public safety is not a team sport.


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## jgmedic (Jun 29, 2019)

Bull. OCFA can and has transported in other rigs multiple times. That is such a weak argument. "I was just foilowing orders".  Having been a private EMT, medic, and in the fire service for quite a while now, OC/LA is the only place that really functions like that. You're absolutely right it's not a team sport, and that's exactly why this FC messed up. He put politics over pt care and there is no place for that.


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## Bullets (Jun 29, 2019)

RocketMedic said:


> Autovent 3000


How bad could it be...*googles* MI DIOS!




wirk242 said:


> Soooo, they had to wait for a ambulance to respond to a call in their own operating area. Lynch doesn't do 911 transport in placentia, emergency does. If anything this is emergencys fault for taking 30 mins to get on scene.
> 
> I don't know OCs system but maybe it was a code 2 response for emergency. I doubt this pt was circling the drain if the SNF didn't even call 911.
> 
> There are operating areas for a reason. If not, ok popwhat's to stop Lynch from dispatching their own bls boxes to calls and snake transports from emergency if they are not on scene by the time they are ready to transport.


The facility called their contracted IFT for a transport. Those 2 EMTs arrived and determined this patient needed ALS care and requested them. ALS showed up and refused to get in the BLS transport unit already on scene and requested a different BLS unit to respond and transport.

If i did that as a paramedic i would expect to be fired. If i was the treating EMT youd be hard pressed to have me wait around to turn over that patient to another BLS unit


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## wirk242 (Jun 29, 2019)

jgmedic said:


> All my experience let me know exactly who I didnt want to be.



Exactly, there are crappy medic everywhere, both in the public side and the private side. You wake up every morning and determine who you are going to be. Your patch doesn't matter.


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## VentMonkey (Jun 29, 2019)

Bullets said:


> ...*googles* MI DIOS!


_Dios Mio?😁_


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## jgmedic (Jun 30, 2019)

wirk242 said:


> Exactly, there are crappy medic everywhere, both in the public side and the private side. You wake up every morning and determine who you are going to be. Your patch doesn't matter.


I 100% agree and I never said it did. In fact, I'm arguing the same point. But you have to agree that certain systems/agencies celebrate or reward mediocrity and big egos. Unfortunately a lot of them are in the LA/OC area


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## DesertMedic66 (Jun 30, 2019)

jgmedic said:


> I 100% agree and I never said it did. In fact, I'm arguing the same point. But you have to agree that certain systems/agencies celebrate or reward mediocrity and big egos. Unfortunately a lot of them are in the LA/OC area


Also this. I have seen great ambulance medics go the fire route and because of the station/department they have turned into a crappy medic.


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## wirk242 (Jun 30, 2019)

jgmedic said:


> Bull. OCFA can and has transported in other rigs multiple times. That is such a weak argument. "I was just foilowing orders".  Having been a private EMT, medic, and in the fire service for quite a while now, OC/LA is the only place that really functions like that. You're absolutely right it's not a team sport, and that's exactly why this FC messed up. He put politics over pt care and there is no place for that.



I don't know their policies. I have worked in adjacent counties to OC and have worked for multiple privates as a EMT and as a medic and for multiple municipal agencies as both pump medic and box medic.

What is their policy for utilizing a non dispatched piece of equipment? Was this policy violated? What was the circumstances regarding this patient? Did this patient actually meet 'major trauma' criteria?

I know in every system I have worked in, if I transported in a piece of equipment that was not dispatched to the call, county ems would be inquisitive.


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## PotatoMedic (Jun 30, 2019)

wirk242 said:


> I don't know their policies. I have worked in adjacent counties to OC and have worked for multiple privates as a EMT and as a medic and for multiple municipal agencies as both pump medic and box medic.
> 
> What is their policy for utilizing a non dispatched piece of equipment? Was this policy violated? What was the circumstances regarding this patient? Did this patient actually meet 'major trauma' criteria?
> 
> I know in every system I have worked in, if I transported in a piece of equipment that was not dispatched to the call, county ems would be inquisitive.


So what if the same situation occured but the patient was having an MI or an acute CVA?  Would you wait for the "approved" bls box to show up, or would you take the exact same box, that has the exact same blessing from the county EMS authority just with a different logo, and get the patient to the care they need?


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## Medic496 (Jun 30, 2019)

EMT Rookie said:


> Placentia Alleges OC Fire Authority Misconduct After City Leaves Agency
> 
> 
> Two Placentia Police lieutenants alleged misconduct by Orange County Fire Authority firefighters Thursday, detailing incidents that happened within days of the City Council voting to form its own fire department.
> ...


The Captain, who may or may not have been a medic is making medical transport decisions?  I wonder if he was primary care for this patient or just being the guy in charge with the red hat?  Delaying transport due to not liking the currently present and licensed BLS ambulance provider is gross negligence.   Get that idiots P-card number if he has one, and the State EMS Authority should investigate since they issued his license.  He better have his OCEMS Paramedic accreditation in good order, I've heard some of the OCFA red hat medics aren't OCEMS accredited any longer but still get the paramedics "adjustment".


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## DrParasite (Jul 1, 2019)

wirk242 said:


> Soooo, they had to wait for a ambulance to respond to a call in their own operating area. Lynch doesn't do 911 transport in placentia, emergency does. If anything this is emergencys fault for taking 30 mins to get on scene.


I'm inclined to agree.  this action was 100% about politics and contracts, and had 0 to do with what was in the best interest of the patient.





wirk242 said:


> I don't know OCs system but maybe it was a code 2 response for emergency. I doubt this pt was circling the drain if the SNF didn't even call 911.


the real issue is Lynch waited on scene, vs identifying they had a sick patient and transporting to the trauma center.  and SNF will call their IFT provider all to often, when they should have called 911.  it's not a Ca specific issue.





wirk242 said:


> There are operating areas for a reason. If not, ok popwhat's to stop Lynch from dispatching their own bls boxes to calls and snake transports from emergency if they are not on scene by the time they are ready to transport.


Also known as daily occurrences in NYC....


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## DrParasite (Jul 1, 2019)

PotatoMedic said:


> So what if the same situation occured but the patient was having an MI or an acute CVA?  Would you wait for the "approved" bls box to show up, or would you take the exact same box, that has the exact same blessing from the county EMS authority just with a different logo, and get the patient to the care they need?


Just to play devil's advocate:

Would your defend the captain who ordered the paramedic to transport in an unapproved by county vehicle, because the patient needed it?  who violated the FD policy regarding the permitted EMS provider for the area?

going one step further, so if Lynch were to start listening to the scanner and beating the contracting 911 provider to the scene, would it be ok if they just transported the patients?  or would you delay transport again until the contracted provider arrived?

Personally, I do think that OCFA was wrong, and if there is an ambulance present, and it was requested by the originating facility, than it's better to err on the side of the patient and transport and write and incident report explaining why you deviated from normal SOPs, vs delaying patient care on a potentially sick patient.  but that's just me.

The whole situation reaks of dirty politics.  PPD accuses OCFA of misconduct.... OCFA's response is that PPD was acting with misconduct when they crashed a patrol vehicle responding to a structure fire.  PFD says OCFA provides 3 paramedics.... OCFA saying that's absurd, they know we provider 4 paramedics, and if they can't get that right, everything else they claim is a flatout lie. And then the OCFA told a PPD cop do take vitals on a patient, since they are going to be doing it anyway.  the OCFA union and PPD unions are both throwing accusations, and it's, quite simply embarrassing.  Not how so called professionals should be acting.


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## Generic (Jul 2, 2019)

EMT Rookie said:


> Wow, just wow.  OCFA fire captain delayed the transport of an elderly patient with a head wound because he didn’t want Lynch handling the transport and instead had emergency ambulance dispatched Code 3 as they were 30 minutes away.



Where does it say there was a 30 minute ETA?


----------

