# EMT/Fire Fighters and gun control



## MedicAngel (Mar 28, 2009)

Not sure how to put this into words. I live and run in Virginia. There is a huge debate on a 2nd amendment rights board about whether EMT's and Fire Fighters should be allowed to conceal carry a weapon while either in a paid or volunteer basis. So, I am posing this question to those of you who run in either capacity what your views are.

I personally think when your in either capacity your there to do a certain job and to save a life, least that is how I view it. I was not taught to take a life, nor there to protect someone should a gun fight break out or if I roll upon one. That is what we have the police for. What you do OFF duty is your own business and if you want to carry then that is your own business and your right. Make sense? I also don't want a possible scene that may go south to truly get worse or someone who has issues realize that my partner has a weapon and then it goes bad. 

Now I am put as an anti gun person, which I am not. If you all would give me your views and your ideas, I would appreciate it. And I hope that those on this board don't resort to name calling or anything else.


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## curt (Mar 28, 2009)

*Your second amendment right interferes with my right to not get shot*

Honestly, I don't think we really need firearms, especially with the possibility of screwing someone up because they've had a medical emergency that turned them into a violent psych. Honestly, though, I wouldn't terribly mind having tasers instead. 

 Anyway, keep the SO in the SO and EMS in EMS. We've got our jobs, and we've got to have enough trust in the other services that they're going to do their job too.


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## medic417 (Mar 28, 2009)

We never know when a call will go bad.  You may not be able to survive long enough for the cops to get there.  At least if people have gotten the education and certification to carry a firearm you have a fighting chance.  W/O you are a sitting duck.  Why does your feelings about being willing to become a defenseless target mean I should have no right to defend myself?  

And if a service places a no carry policy for licensed people and they get shot the service will lose in the law suit that follows.  

A properly concealed firearm will never be seen, so just make a policy that a firearm may not be visible at work.


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## Hockey (Mar 28, 2009)

medic417 said:


> We never know when a call will go bad.  You may not be able to survive long enough for the cops to get there.  At least if people have gotten the education and certification to carry a firearm you have a fighting chance.  W/O you are a sitting duck.  Why does your feelings about being willing to become a defenseless target mean I should have no right to defend myself?
> 
> And if a service places a no carry policy for licensed people and they get shot the service will lose in the law suit that follows.
> 
> A properly concealed firearm will never be seen, so just make a policy that a firearm may not be visible at work.




100% +1 agree


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## DT4EMS (Mar 28, 2009)

EMS should not be armed. Period. This debate has risen several times and always leads to hacking people off.

I work hard enough trying to keep EMS,..... EMS. If the general public "believed" you were armed it is going to make "unknown medicals"  that much worse.

Sorry, but I used to carry a firearm while on EMS duty (I was full-time LEO, part-time EMT-P). One day I didn't.......... that was the day my ambulance was car-jacked. When it was all said and done........ I was GLAD I didn't have a gun. The BG would have been dead....... the headlines would have read "Paramedic Shoots man inside ambulance" 
.

Feel free to debate it.......... don't get too angry........... but that is my opinion.


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## MedicAngel (Mar 28, 2009)

Thank you so far for your replies...and yes, please, lets keep this from becoming an all out flame war. I am just asking for opinions and what you feel is right or not and why.


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## fortsmithman (Mar 28, 2009)

I don't think EMS should be armed.  Although a TASER would be nice.  Our job is to save lives not take them.  Intsead of a firearm how about taking a self defence course.


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## firecoins (Mar 28, 2009)

EMS should not be armed.


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## medic417 (Mar 28, 2009)

So we should be helpless sheep led to the slaughter?  

Even being skilled in self defense does not help if they start shooting from across the room.  You are pinned down and eventually the shooter will reposition to be able to take a shot at you behind whatever you are hiding behind.  At least with a firearm you could attempt to buy time or even stop the assault.  

In the patient compartment you are close enough going for gone would be stupid, just beat them with O2 tank or monitor.   

There are many providers that carry and funny have not ever heard of any getting into a wild west shootout for fun.


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## AJ Hidell (Mar 28, 2009)

MedicAngel said:


> I was not taught to take a life, nor there to protect someone should a gun fight break out or if I roll upon one. That is what we have the police for.


Wow, you have cops partnered with you at all times during your shift?  Aren't you lucky to be the only one!


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## Sasha (Mar 28, 2009)

medic417 said:


> We never know when a call will go bad.  You may not be able to survive long enough for the cops to get there.  At least if people have gotten the education and certification to carry a firearm you have a fighting chance.  W/O you are a sitting duck.  Why does your feelings about being willing to become a defenseless target mean I should have no right to defend myself?
> 
> And if a service places a no carry policy for licensed people and they get shot the service will lose in the law suit that follows.
> 
> A properly concealed firearm will never be seen, so just make a policy that a firearm may not be visible at work.



Let's use your normal argument.

No other medical professional carries a fire arm, why should we?

You're telling me that you will be able to pull out your gun and shoot faster than the person who already has a gun on you pulls the trigger? Don't you think that sudden unpredictable movement will scare the gunman into shooting when before all he was doing was threatning?


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## MedicAngel (Mar 28, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> Wow, you have cops partnered with you at all times during your shift?  Aren't you lucky to be the only one!



I only meant that IF something goes bad or we get to a scene that may not be good, we can just as easily call for back up. I know the adage of "seconds count when the police are only minutes away".  I am sorry if I led you to assume that we have police for every call, we don't. Certain calls yes, the police are usually there before us if not right behind us.


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## curt (Mar 28, 2009)

It's true that our job is dangerous, but if they start shooting first from just across a room, it's a pretty sure bet that you're not going to be able to go back in time and shoot them first. Besides, room distance is still within TASER range, so why blow them and the person in the next apartment over away when you could disable them with a non-lethal device? Besides, not everyone's going to be equally armed. If some crackhead's charging you down, the law's not going to be forgiving if you see fit to put him down with your gun, even if you felt you were in imminent danger, because the threat was not equal to the response. 

 Also, you should have the good sense to recognize and call SO on 98% of the high-potential troublemakers before you handle them. 

 Finally, it's not our role to carry firearms. Do you think we could really be truly trusted by the public if they knew we could pop a cap in their hides? I think not. It'd probably complicate our jobs more than anything. Besides, whatever is on that ambulance that they want, it's not worth losing or risking your life for. Drugs, ambubags, cardiac monitors can all be replaced, brains can't. A TASER should be more than sufficient for almost every scenario we're bound to encounter.

 I understand where the 'for' argument is coming from, but I just can't see a very solid justification for it.


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## Hockey (Mar 28, 2009)

I know some paramedics that carry guns.  But they are Sheriff Paramedics (do both Police & Medical)

I'm just waiting to hear from someone that doesn't allow a police officer board "their" ambulance without leaving their  firearm behind...


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## AJ Hidell (Mar 28, 2009)

curt said:


> Also, you should have the good sense to recognize and call SO on 98% of the high-potential troublemakers before you handle them.


It's always so easy to pick out the people with very little real experience when this discussion comes up.  They're the ones who think that you are going to know ahead of time when a scene is going to go south on you.  That is so incredibly naive.

Do this:  Ask everyone you can find who has been shot if they knew before they got to that scene that they were going to be shot.  Let me know if you find any who say yes, and I've got a Ben Franklin for you.  If they knew ahead of time that the scene was unsafe, they wouldn't have gotten shot.

The truth is, calls that are dispatched as having violent potential are the very last scenes that you have to worry about.  It's all those that make you feel safe that will kill you.  They are the ones that the police are not responding to, and that your guard is down for.  So this nonsense about letting the police protect you is just stupid.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 28, 2009)

Here was one of our more interesting debates on the subject.

http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=1465


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## curt (Mar 28, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> It's always so easy to pick out the people with very little real experience when this discussion comes up.  They're the ones who think that you are going to know ahead of time when a scene is going to go south on you.  That is so incredibly naive.
> 
> Do this:  Ask everyone you can find who has been shot if they knew before they got to that scene that they were going to be shot.  Let me know if you find any who say yes, and I've got a Ben Franklin for you.  If they knew ahead of time that the scene was unsafe, they wouldn't have gotten shot.
> 
> The truth is, calls that are dispatched as having violent potential are the very last scenes that you have to worry about.  It's all those that make you feel safe that will kill you.  They are the ones that the police are not responding to, and that your guard is down for.  So this nonsense about letting the police protect you is just stupid.



You're right, it's not easy, else nobody would get shot. Conversely, to think that being suspicious or trusting your gut and having law enforcement back-up's never saved anyone is also a pretty silly statement.

 Look, I don't really want to get into it, I've been in similar debates a thousand times, and it's just beating a dead horse by this point. A TASER should be sufficient for almost any self-defense scenario we'd potentially come across. It also destroys the possibility of lethal crossfire or over-responding to a threat as well as protecting the health of an emergency-induced violent psych. That's my opinion on it, through and through.


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## firecoins (Mar 28, 2009)

Hockey9019 said:


> I know some paramedics that carry guns.  But they are Sheriff Paramedics (do both Police & Medical)
> 
> I'm just waiting to hear from someone that doesn't allow a police officer board "their" ambulance without leaving their  firearm behind...



theoretically, a cop is not supposed to have a gun on an ambulance in my area.  It is feared that if he loses the gun in such a confined place, anyone in the back is dead.  No one enforces this rule but it exists.  Cops do carry their piece if they do come on board which is rare.


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## Buzz (Mar 28, 2009)

I seem to recall someone giving me grief after telling a story about a run we pulled out of a nursing home. Turns out the lady, mid 80s, had broken a sign off the wall and carved a knife out of the plastic. My partner and I show up, talk to her just fine. We go to get a BP and out comes the shiv. The last thing you would have expected in that situation. We got it away from her just fine, but had we not been paying attention (or if she'd been more discreet getting it out of her sleeve) one of us would have likely been stabbed. It's definitely irritating when someone says "Well, you should have checked for scene safety and got out of there" as if they are implying that it would not happen to them--that they would have suspected it and been more cautious. That "It won't happen to me because..." sentiment is dangerous. 

Now a firearm wouldn't have helped in that situation... nor would a tazer. We were too close and the weapon was out too fast. In reality, it's rarely the patients that make me feel uncomfortable--even the psychs. It's the bystanders and family members.


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## medic417 (Mar 28, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Let's use your normal argument.
> 
> No other medical professional carries a fire arm, why should we?
> 
> You're telling me that you will be able to pull out your gun and shoot faster than the person who already has a gun on you pulls the trigger? Don't you think that sudden unpredictable movement will scare the gunman into shooting when before all he was doing was threatning?



Actually I know many doctors and nurses that are armed.  

Don't have to pull and shoot faster just shoot better.  Plus if you do get to take cover you are able to pull your gun and be prepared if the shooter does try to go to an angle to try and shoot you as you will already be able to fire.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUslGSoEH8I


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## Hockey (Mar 28, 2009)

medic417 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUslGSoEH8I





Thats how I roll


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## Sasha (Mar 28, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Actually I know many doctors and nurses that are armed.
> 
> Don't have to pull and shoot faster just shoot better.  Plus if you do get to take cover you are able to pull your gun and be prepared if the shooter does try to go to an angle to try and shoot you as you will already be able to fire.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUslGSoEH8I



So. Person pulls a gun. You try to run away and duck behing something while pulling out your gun, you've been shot. Let's say the arm. You still feel that you are going to be able to adequately shoot while injured?

So how are you gonna justify shooting down someone running at you with a knife?


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## medic417 (Mar 28, 2009)

Sasha said:


> So. Person pulls a gun. You try to run away and duck behing something while pulling out your gun, you've been shot. Let's say the arm. You still feel that you are going to be able to adequately shoot while injured?
> 
> So how are you gonna justify shooting down someone running at you with a knife?



If I go home alive is better than going into a box.  If you have no gun they shoot your arm then walk over shoot you dead.  If I have a gun they shoot my arm I shoot them with my other arm when they come to finish the job.  

Someone coming at me with a knife wants to kill me I pull and shoot if they are far enough back, same thing the cops do.  If they are up close I and even cops just have to try and fight for life as not able to get a gun pulled quick enough.  Deadly force is justified to stop someone trying to use deadly force on you.


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## medic417 (Mar 28, 2009)

Hockey9019 said:


> Thats how I roll



Had to be one of the best qoutes of all time.  Can't believe its not used more.


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## Sasha (Mar 28, 2009)

It's a police officer's job to take down a criminal. It is not yours as a paramedic. So you're going to shoot someone coming at you with a knife? Why are you not able to run away?

I'm not so ignorant that I believe you will know when the scene is safe or not, but I don't feel that carrying guns is the answer. I used to be anti-taser, but I can see the benefit of a taser over a gun. Non-Lethal (In MOST cases, there will always be the exception.) force that incapacitates the target long enough for you to get away, as oppose to shooting them with a gun, which may or may not incapacitate them, may kill them, and will possibly land you in jail.


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## Buzz (Mar 28, 2009)

Sasha said:


> It's a police officer's job to take down a criminal. It is not yours as a paramedic. So you're going to shoot someone coming at you with a knife? Why are you not able to run away?



Off the top of my head: Getting cornered. Opening a door with someone coming at you is NOT easy. Particularly if you have to run to that door. It slows you down considerably. I forget the exact numbers, but someone can close a distance of 20ft pretty quickly. Add that into your time to react, time to move towards the door, and time to try and open it and you'll have a nice shiny new steel implant in your back.


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## Sasha (Mar 28, 2009)

Buzz said:


> Off the top of my head: Getting cornered. Opening a door with someone coming at you is NOT easy. Particularly if you have to run to that door. It slows you down considerably. I forget the exact numbers, but someone can close a distance of 20ft pretty quickly. Add that into your time to react, time to move towards the door, and time to try and open it and you'll have a nice shiny new steel implant in your back.



Alright, so why is a taser not a viable option over a gun?


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## AJ Hidell (Mar 28, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Alright, so why is a taser not a viable option over a gun?


Because you only have one shot with a Taser.  In a stress situation, there is a good chance you are going to miss.  Remember, cops are usually shooting it offensively, meaning they are more likely to hit, but they still sometimes miss.  When you are on the defense, your ability to make one shot count is significantly decreased.  And then it has to actually stick, which won't always happen.  And then it has to actually work, which again does not always happen.

As for running, you shouldn't have to.  You may need to stay and protect your partner and/or patient.  And, of course, what makes you think you run faster than your attacker, or that there is anyplace to run to?  Is there anyplace to run to in HIS HOUSE, which is where you are likely to be?  All your "what if's" are a little weak. But if you are going to pull them out, then you need to pull them all out, including the ones above.


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## Buzz (Mar 28, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Alright, so why is a taser not a viable option over a gun?



When did I ever say it was not? Aside from the one shot thing, I'd be happy with having a taser over nothing.


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## DT4EMS (Mar 28, 2009)

Important questions before you make you decision;

How many officers have been killed in the line of duty with their own firearm?

The "average" officer does not practice enough weapon retention skills. How much training would it take to teach an EMS provider the issues involved with carrying a firearm while on duty?

How many EMS agencies will provide the ongoing certification process to allow the EMS provider to be armed with a firearm while on duty?

The agency DOES assume some responsibility when "allowing" a person to be armed or carry a tool.


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## Shishkabob (Mar 28, 2009)

With proper education just like any other civilian, then yes, totally, we should be able to carry if we so choose.

We deal with the same exact dangerous people that LEOs do.. why shouldn't we be armed?


But this is coming from someone who's been through MCRD and has all the training...


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## Hockey (Mar 28, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Alright, so why is a taser not a viable option over a gun?



Because a Taser is not 100% effective on everybody.


Police are trained to neutralize/stop the threat.  You know, that within 21 feet, you could run at me with a knife, and before I could get my firearm out, acquire my target, and fire, you would be on top of me stabbing me.

I don't think EMS will ever get to carry firearms.  But thats just how it is.


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## AJ Hidell (Mar 28, 2009)

Hockey9019 said:


> I don't think EMS will ever get to carry firearms.  But thats just how it is.


Actually, it is not unheard of in some parts of the country.  I carried on-duty in EMS for years in Texas.


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## DT4EMS (Mar 28, 2009)

Linuss said:


> With proper education just like any other civilian, then yes, totally, we should be able to carry if we so choose.
> 
> We deal with the same exact dangerous people that LEOs do.. why shouldn't we be armed?
> 
> ...



If they put firearms training, Use of Force (levels), Documentation and courtroom training as a part of EMT and Medic school I am all for it.

There is a secondary issue here.........

A civilian has a DUTY TO RETREAT in most cases. Police officers do not. It  may take a change in the Supreme Court to task EMS with carrying a gun "on duty".

I am all for a citizen  legally carrying a gun and having that gun for self-defense purposes. I am just afraid of the dangers of a person in EMS having that gun. Too many variables that lend it to be more of a danger than a safety for the provider.


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## Hockey (Mar 28, 2009)

DT4EMS said:


> *A civilian has a DUTY TO RETREAT in most cases.* Police officers do not. It  may take a change in the Supreme Court to task EMS with carrying a gun "on duty".



Not in Michigan anymore!


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## AJ Hidell (Mar 28, 2009)

DT4EMS said:


> A civilian has a DUTY TO RETREAT in most cases. Police officers do not. It  may take a change in the Supreme Court to task EMS with carrying a gun "on duty".


This is actually becoming less and less common in right-to-carry states.  Both states I reside in have enacted laws that specifically exempt a citizen from a duty to retreat.


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## DT4EMS (Mar 28, 2009)

Hockey9019 said:


> Not in Michigan anymore!




Do you have a link to that? I wanna make sure that is not confused with a "castle doctrine" type ruling.


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## Veneficus (Mar 28, 2009)

I go to the range regularly, having said that.

I would not carry a firearm on duty in either the hospital or on a truck. Whether you do or not, is you and your employers business, but here are the risks, benefits I see.

Benefit:

You have the most modern weapon to defend yourself with. It puts you on equal or better (depending on how well you shoot) ground as any other weapon out there.

depending on your weapon and ammunition load out, you can eliminate overshot, penetration, or even negate cover or concealment.

A missile weapon will usually win out over a melee weapon until distance is closed. 

Draw backs:

A weapon you do not control is a weapon that can be used against you. Giving your attacker the benefits over you, you would have had over them.

It escalates the threat prior to even showing up. If the local criminals know EMS is carrying, (in the hood word travels fast) a guy who might have pulled a knife and demanded a drug box or money may now pull a gun first. Or shoot first and take what they want after.

Psych patients may also escalte directly to fire arm. Maybe even to long arm. No gun in the world protects you from being sniped. 

You are responsible for your gun. If you are involved in patient care and during such your gun comes up missing, you will have a major headache on hand. 

Having a gun often imparts a false sense of security, those who have guns seem to have an increased probability of making it the first choice rather than the last.

If you constantly have to be worried about securing your firearm, you are taking attention away from other things. like patient care, scene management, etc. 

In the EMS environment, most violence against providers will be close quarters, the gun may put you at a disadvantage. Concealed certainly doesn't mean accessable.

increase potential violence against you. I worked in a hood where fire and EMS we overwhelmingly treated as the good guy. Despite it being a high crime area, not only did we not carry, we rarely called for the police. (I know it is not like that everywhere) Somebody mistaking you for a police officer may be more likely to assault you.

Neutralization of the threat. If I were in a violent situation, the people who could shoot back would be the most important target. So a gun may become a bullet magnet. A person who wanted to fire and flee may now resort to making sure you can't shoot back.

I have never been in LE, but I know about this fight or flight response in animals (humans are animals too.)  If they feel they cannot flight, the natural reaction is fight. (which is why I can never understand why cops surround people and then wonder why they shoot back instead of surrendering in stressful situations)

Kill myself fine, bring the weapon that kills my coworkers would make me feel like crap if I lived. Not to mention the legal ramifications. Especially if the only weapon on scene was the one I brought.

No such thing as "friendly fire." So the scene turns violent, I call for help, pull my weapon to defend myself, a cop shows up highly stressed to a violent situation, sees I have a weapon, decides in a fraction of a second I am the threat and it is over for me or in the heat of the hypothetical wild west shoot out, I perceive as a threat the cops trying to help me and take one of them down. 

I have never even heard of an EMS professional coming out the better in a gun fight outside of war zones.

Even if I am in the right, doesn't stop your employer from throwing you under the bus. 

I have also never even heard of an instance where a provider, with a fire arm outside of a warzone or terrorist attack, would have benefited from having a fire arm. 


I just see many more drawbacks than benefits and even in my time in urban ghettos have never been in or heard of a situation where an armed provider (non LEO) would have made a difference. Why make the job any harder than it is?

"Well one day what if..."  I'll risk it. 

Maybe one day there will be a need to a US or EU medical provider to be armed. But it isn't like that today. Unless I am wearing a military uniform, (since I have no desire to be a LEO) if there is a high likelyhood of me needing a gun, I am not going into that environment.


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## Shishkabob (Mar 28, 2009)

Duty to retreat only applies if you can do so without undue risk towards yourself, and only before the actual act of aggression happens.  Once violence is directed towards you, and you act in kind back, no DA in the country would take you to court.


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## Hockey (Mar 28, 2009)

DT4EMS said:


> Do you have a link to that? I wanna make sure that is not confused with a "castle doctrine" type ruling.



http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2005-2006/publicact/pdf/2006-PA-0309.pdf



> Sec. 2. (1) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses deadly
> force may use deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat
> if either of the following applies:
> (a) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent
> ...



Used to be the castle doctrine but not anymore


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## medic417 (Mar 28, 2009)

The safest and least likely to get an EMS services sued is no policy.  If you say I can not carry and something happens that could have been prevented had I been armed my family will be rich.  If you say yes you can carry and someone starts horse playing since that seems to be the norm based on peoples comments here and shoots someone then the service would be sued and lose.  So ignorance is best policy for the service.


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## TransportJockey (Mar 28, 2009)

I'm undecided on this topic, but I know right now when I get to work I take my legally concealed firearm out of it's holster and it gets locked up. I don't really know if I would want to carry while on shift though, too many variables


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## Ridryder911 (Mar 28, 2009)

Placing a weapon in the hands of a medic? Are you guys serious, heck we are even worried about placing a defib and med.'s! I am sure not giving them a loaded gun!

R/r911


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## DT4EMS (Mar 28, 2009)

Hockey9019 said:


> http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2005-2006/publicact/pdf/2006-PA-0309.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Used to be the castle doctrine but not anymore



I think that is awesome. Mind you I carry a gun all the time (on and off duty) BUT..... while working the ambulance I stopped carrying. That was my choice.

Look at the BART incident....... I bet the officer did not intend to shoot the guy. It will come out in court it was an accidental shooting. But notice the reaction of the public when the four officers where shot........... there were rallies in support of the shooter.

Work an inner-city urban area and make the mistake of shooting someone. Guys there is so much more that goes into carrying a gun than just carrying the  gun.

If you make an informed decision to do so it is on you. Good luck with your homework. 

My fight is FOR EMS. I have been battling to keep EMS safe for over 12 years. So don't think I am against EMS providers having tools to defend themselves.......... but we have a hard enough time separating ourselves from police on scenes......... start carrying guns and it will get worse.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 28, 2009)

DT4EMS said:


> Do you have a link to that? I wanna make sure that is not confused with a "castle doctrine" type ruling.



WA state has no Duty to Retreat law either...

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.020



> (3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;



http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.050


> Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:
> 
> (1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or


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## Hockey (Mar 28, 2009)

ffemt8978 said:


> WA state has no Duty to Retreat law either...
> 
> http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.020
> 
> ...



Good to see other states are following.  I know Michigan, it was like pulling teeth it seemed.


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## fortsmithman (Mar 28, 2009)

Actually my service will request police back up for the following
Suicide
Attempted suicide
MVA
Accidental OD
Mental health clients
Domestic violence
Fights
Any report of a weapon being present

I am opposed to EMS carryng firearms because we are already being mistaken for police if we carried sidearms we would really be mistaken for LEOs.


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## medic417 (Mar 28, 2009)

fortsmithman said:


> I am opposed to EMS carrying firearms because we are already being mistaken for police if we carried sidearms we would really be mistaken for LEOs.



Firearm would not be required, nor would it be visible.  The public would have no clue who if any were carrying.


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## RMSP05 (Mar 28, 2009)

I think if you want to carry, go for it, providing that you have a conceiled weapons permit *AND* have had proficency training.  Anyone carrying a gun without training is just foolish.


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## EMT4LIFEE (Mar 28, 2009)

If we carry weapons then we will be even more likely to get shot when we hop out of our trucks more then we do now...Got a buddy that is or should i say was an EMT-P. 1st day on the job. gets out of his rig and BAM! guy shot him wit a 22 riffle from his window. Excuse? " i thought he was a cop. i had a warrent out for some parking tickets i didnt pay." What the *^$@! Killed him on the spot.


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## medic417 (Mar 28, 2009)

EMT4LIFEE said:


> If we carry weapons then we will be even more likely to get shot when we hop out of our trucks more then we do now...Got a buddy that is or should i say was an EMT-P. 1st day on the job. gets out of his rig and BAM! guy shot him wit a 22 riffle from his window. Excuse? " i thought he was a cop. i had a warrent out for some parking tickets i didnt pay." What the *^$@! Killed him on the spot.



Us carrying concealed guns will not increase the idiots that do this.  In fact if armed at least the partner could try and defend so they don't get shot to.


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## Hockey (Mar 28, 2009)

EMT4LIFEE said:


> If we carry weapons then we will be even more likely to get shot when we hop out of our trucks more then we do now...Got a buddy that is or should i say was an EMT-P. 1st day on the job. gets out of his rig and BAM! guy shot him wit a 22 riffle from his window. Excuse? " i thought he was a cop. i had a warrent out for some parking tickets i didnt pay." What the *^$@! Killed him on the spot.




News story?


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## Shishkabob (Mar 28, 2009)

EMT4LIFEE said:


> If we carry weapons then we will be even more likely to get shot when we hop out of our trucks more then we do now...Got a buddy that is or should i say was an EMT-P. 1st day on the job. gets out of his rig and BAM! guy shot him wit a 22 riffle from his window. Excuse? " i thought he was a cop. i had a warrent out for some parking tickets i didnt pay." What the *^$@! Killed him on the spot.



They tend to be called "concealed" for a reason.  It's not like we'd be wearing hip-holster like LEOs.


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## MrRevesz (Mar 28, 2009)

The truth of the matter is, wether it is right or not for EMS to carry weapons no one will ever be in full agreement. People pro-gun will usually lean towards the direction of carrying a weapon; where as the anti-gun group will try to find alternate routes to counter gun attacks and carrying... The moral is; where as the debate is interesting and informational, is it really worth the argument?


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## phabib (Mar 29, 2009)

Here's my argument. Let's say you are able to carry a gun, you think you could pull it and shoot before another guy gets a shot off? Are you going to have one hand on your gun at all times?

Of course not. Your focus is on the patient. If you have time to feel like it's going to get violent then get out of there, don't pull a weapon.

I am not necessarily opposed to the tazer idea. Debilitating is better than life-taking.


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## Sasha (Mar 29, 2009)

phabib said:


> Here's my argument. Let's say you are able to carry a gun, you think you could pull it and shoot before another guy gets a shot off? Are you going to have one hand on your gun at all times?
> 
> Of course not. Your focus is on the patient. If you have time to feel like it's going to get violent then get out of there, don't pull a weapon.
> 
> I am not necessarily opposed to the tazer idea. Debilitating is better than life-taking.



Apparently some of those who are for carrying guns feel they will be able to take cover and then, if they're not fatally shot in the first place, shoot back and "better". Kinda like a cowboy in a western, I imagine.

Personally, even if allowed to carry guns, I would never carry one. I suck at shooting. Last time I was at a gun range I managed to hit everything but the target (Including the ceiling.)


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## lightsandsirens5 (Mar 29, 2009)

medic417 said:


> We never know when a call will go bad.  You may not be able to survive long enough for the cops to get there.  At least if people have gotten the education and certification to carry a firearm you have a fighting chance.  W/O you are a sitting duck.  Why does your feelings about being willing to become a defenseless target mean I should have no right to defend myself?
> 
> And if a service places a no carry policy for licensed people and they get shot the service will lose in the law suit that follows.
> 
> A properly concealed firearm will never be seen, so just make a policy that a firearm may not be visible at work.



Well, I;m glad to see we agree on _something_!  But kidding aside, I think that there is nothing wrong with carrying a conceled wepon while on duty. In fact, in many areas, a wepon might even be a good idea! That dosent mean that you have to pull a gun on every psych pt. HoweverOur safety comes first.Like my instructor used to say at almost every class, only half jokingly: "I come first. My personal safety is my number one concern."

I noticed someone else said in another post that your 2nd amdt. right interferes with my right to not get shot. If you are a law-breaking idiot who threatens me with deadly force (which can, by the way, include a closed fist) you just forfited your rights. Don't complain if you try to pull a fast one on me and I beat you to it with point four five of an inch (of mebby 9mm) of supersonic velocity, highly influential, copper-coated lead traveling at 1080 feet per second. (Or 1280 fps)(Not that I carry a cannon of a .45 on me, It just sounded good!)


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 29, 2009)

phabib said:


> Here's my argument. Let's say you are able to carry a gun, you think you could pull it and shoot before another guy gets a shot off? Are you going to have one hand on your gun at all times?
> 
> Of course not. Your focus is on the patient. If you have time to feel like it's going to get violent then get out of there, don't pull a weapon.
> 
> I am not necessarily opposed to the tazer idea. Debilitating is better than life-taking.



And sometimes, that type of action can get you killed.  You don't always have the time to run away.

http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=11109


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## JonTullos (Mar 29, 2009)

fortsmithman said:


> I don't think EMS should be armed.  Although a TASER would be nice.  Our job is to save lives not take them.  Intsead of a firearm how about taking a self defence course.



THIS.  I don't see any problem with having some non-lethal protection available to EMS but I don't think having a gun is the right thing to do.


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## Sasha (Mar 29, 2009)

> And sometimes, that type of action can get you killed.



And so can pulling out a gun.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 29, 2009)

JonTullos said:


> THIS.  I don't see any problem with having some non-lethal protection available to EMS but I don't think having a gun is the right thing to do.



And non-lethal weapons don't work on 100% of the people.  Tazer, OC, stun gun, baton, etc...all have failed to disable the person they were used on.



Sasha said:


> And so can pulling out a gun.


And a pulling out a gun can save a life, or several lives.  It is a situation that is too dynamic, and situation dependent to make blanket statements.  But let me ask you this question in a hypothetical situation.

Your patient suddenly, and obviously, has decided to kill you for whatever reason.  This patient has the means, the intent, and the ability to do so.  Would you rather be judged by twelve, or carried by six?


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## Shishkabob (Mar 29, 2009)

JonTullos said:


> THIS.  I don't see any problem with having some non-lethal protection available to EMS but I don't think having a gun is the right thing to do.



There is no such thing as non-lethal.  Less-then-lethal, but it still has the potential to be lethal.


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## Jon (Mar 29, 2009)

Wow. Hot-button issues - Veneficus already listed my arguments... I've had this debate before.

Funny thing is that I was at EMS Today - THIS MORNING. The closing keynote was from Steve Berry.

He discussed that EMS is a cross between Public Safety and Public Health/Medicine - We do both. And we need to embrace both fields.

He actually discussed that in an ideal EMS system, we WOULD have some cross-training and familiarity with law enforcement and their equipment, and he acknowledged that terrorism isn't going to go away.... and that there are times when taking a life is necessary to save lives.


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## firecoins (Mar 29, 2009)

I have a tough time convincing patients with legal issues I am not a cop without being armed.  A gun won't help


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## phabib (Mar 29, 2009)

ffemt8978 said:


> And sometimes, that type of action can get you killed.  You don't always have the time to run away.
> 
> http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=11109



We need to be trained to get out of scenes way earlier instead of trying to make a stand. Having a gun goes against that completely. 

Either way, it has to be very concealed. Having your health care provider come up to you with a gun is a horrible idea. With a concealed weapon it will take you longer to pull it, aim, and shoot. It really isn't reasonable in our line of work. I can run out of a house faster than that.


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## Kookaburra (Mar 29, 2009)

While I haven't made my mind up one way or the other (carrying on a call makes me uneasy, but I am also an NRA member...) I do wonder how much time the people who are saying that "taking a gun out, aiming, and shooting will take too long to do any good" think that taking a tazer out, aiming, and shooting it takes?


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## phabib (Mar 29, 2009)

Kookaburra said:


> While I haven't made my mind up one way or the other (carrying on a call makes me uneasy, but I am also an NRA member...) I do wonder how much time the people who are saying that "taking a gun out, aiming, and shooting will take too long to do any good" think that taking a tazer out, aiming, and shooting it takes?




Good point but you don't have to conceal a tazer. It could be right there on your belt. Just make sure the ones carried are the bright yellow kind so people know it's a tazer.


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## reaper (Mar 29, 2009)

phabib said:


> We need to be trained to get out of scenes way earlier instead of trying to make a stand. Having a gun goes against that completely.
> 
> Either way, it has to be very concealed. Having your health care provider come up to you with a gun is a horrible idea. With a concealed weapon it will take you longer to pull it, aim, and shoot. It really isn't reasonable in our line of work. I can run out of a house faster than that.



I can bet, that I can pull an ankle holstered pistol,aim, and kill, faster then you can take two steps for the door!

I have no problem with carrying in EMS. I have a problem with the hundred of idiots employed in EMS, being trusted with it!

If we had training for it and psych testing done, then it may be ok!


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## medic417 (Mar 29, 2009)

firecoins said:


> I have a tough time convincing patients with legal issues I am not a cop without being armed.  A gun won't help



Concealed, concealed, concealed, concealed, concealed, concealed.  No one will ever know you have a gun.


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## Sasha (Mar 29, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Concealed, concealed, concealed, concealed, concealed, concealed.  No one will ever know you have a gun.



Say one EMT or Medic in your area pulls a gun while on duty. People talk, word spreads, and now people assume EVERY EMT/Medic from soandso ambulance service, or maybe even in general, are packin' heat.


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## reaper (Mar 29, 2009)

Then they would think twice about attacking you!


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## Veneficus (Mar 29, 2009)

reaper said:


> Then they would think twice about attacking you!



or snipe you at 200 yards

or open automatic fire as you are driving down the street because you threatend their "boy"

or call 911 and send you to an ambush

I think you put too much faith in the power of a fire arm


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## reaper (Mar 29, 2009)

Or they might drop am atomic bomb on you while you are eating lunch!

Maybe melt your brain with a laser, from space!

Come on, you could "maybe" and "what if" to death.

Research the stats in this country. Every state that has CCP for citizens, have seen a decrease in crime rates!

I do not see it in EMS any time soon. As I stated earlier, We have to many idiots working in EMS to make the right decisions!

If this was something that was needed more often,then they would have to be trained the same as LEO.


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## Veneficus (Mar 29, 2009)

reaper said:


> Or they might drop am atomic bomb on you while you are eating lunch!
> 
> Maybe melt your brain with a laser, from space!
> 
> ...



people in EMS have been sniped, have been dialed into an ambush, and have been shot at while driving through town, or misidentified as Police. Even when performing patient care. 

Is there an article anywhere where an EMS provider benefited from having a firearm outside of Israel or the military? I have asked DT and hope he has time to reply.

There is a difference between a private citizen with fire arms and a decreasing crime rate and an increase of violence towards EMS professions who are even perceived as armed. 

Once somebody sees you draw a weapon, it could be a squirt gun, it will give the perception every EMS provider may be armed and has a real potential to increase violence. My "what if's" are based on things that have actually happened. 

In one of the places I have worked, even if you rightfully shot somebody, you'd be lucky to make it off the block without a running gun battle.

If you think carrying a concealed bazooka helps, then go for it. But as you can see, many of us doubt having it will help as much as you think it will. Hopefully you will never have to find out first hand as it will cut down on the smart people I can have a decent arguement with here.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 29, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Say one EMT or Medic in your area pulls a gun while on duty. People talk, word spreads, and now people assume EVERY EMT/Medic from soandso ambulance service, or maybe even in general, are packin' heat.



You mean like is already happening?  People are already trying to snipe responding ambulances.

http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=8468
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=8516
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=8444
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=7808
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=1453
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=1559
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=3171


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## Sasha (Mar 29, 2009)

ffemt8978 said:


> You mean like is already happening?  People are already trying to snipe responding ambulances.
> 
> http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=8468
> http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=8516
> ...



And you want to give them even more of a reason to? I don't think you're going to be able to counter a "snipe". 

Wait, I forgot. Half of you guys are straight out of Gunsmoke, right?


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## curt (Mar 29, 2009)

People on both sides of this issues are heavily guilty of "what if"s, there's no denying it. There's no possible way you could be prepared for every what if, especially not without sacrificing patient care to some degree. A gun isn't always the answer, especially if you have to shoot fast. Contrary to popular belief, most people can't hollywood a shot and take someone out the moment they draw the gun and with one bullet- people, the persistant fools, tend to die a little on the slow side when compared to hollywood deaths. Of course, all of us know that. Now, don't bother saying "but the aorta, but this vital organ, that vital organ, headshot, etc," because, like you, I know a bullet can kill you near instantly, but unless you've got some wild skills, you're not going to be able to nail a relatively small target like that at distance in a real scrap on purpose. I'm not knocking your skills, reader, I'm just saying.

 Back on track, though, firearms in thickly urban environments present a problem nobody's considered here: bullets sometimes don't stop when they hit, and they certainly don't stop when they miss. We've all heard of real cases were innocent non-combatants were hit or even killed by a stray bullet. Guns are sloppy weapons, lacking in control, unless you're extremely precise in your method. You're massively more likely to accidentally shoot someone than you are to accidentally tase them (especially given that you have to hold the trigger down to keep the current flowing) or accidentally stab them. Let's be real here, when the fur's flying and so are the bullets, you're not going to be entirely too worried about missing- you're going to be focusing on destroying the threat before the threat destroys you, and you're going to miss unless they go out in a t-shirt made to look like a bullseye and stand perfectly still in the wide open for you while giving you plenty of time to get your aim dead perfect. Even if you do hit, that may not be the end of it. You might have to hit them multiple times to put an end to the threat. 

 Supposing you stop the threat, we also need to consider the ethics here. Do we turn right around and treat the man who just tried to kill us? Can we really go beyond ourselves to provide the same level of care we would to anyone else? How will this work with the job that Law Enforcement would have to do, which would invariably involve us in an investigation? How would our employers, our colleagues, and the public we serve respond? 

 A while back, well before this thread, I made a poll on another forum, asking whether or not people, uninvolved in EMS, would feel comfortable if we carried tasers after I explained why we might need to carry them. 90% of those who responded felt that it was largely unnecessary and that they found the thought of such a thing to be uncomfortable. To be honest with myself, I don't think I'd feel any more safe if I carried a firearm on duty.

 Now, for most of the scenarios I can think of where we'd have a close encounter with a violent patient, a TASER would work wonderfully. It's safer, there's less complications, less tarnishing of the EMS name or social acceptance, and it works, else the LEOs wouldn't carry them. Sure, the barbs might not connect, and your gun might jam OR my partner might use his or her TASER when they see mine failed. The guy might be so jumped up on crack that the taser might only slow him down at best, but if it's the case that an electric discharge barely changes his muscle function, what makes you think he'll care about or get slowed down by getting shot?


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## medic417 (Mar 29, 2009)

Sasha said:


> And you want to give them even more of a reason to? I don't think you're going to be able to counter a "snipe".
> 
> Wait, I forgot. Half of you guys are straight out of Gunsmoke, right?



So we are getting shot with no guns.  Have you ever thought hey maybe there would be second thoughts on attacking EMS if they thought we might just shoot back?  The idiots that will shoot us armed would shoot us unarmed, the difference is if we survive the initial attack we have a chance of stopping them when they come in to finish us.


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## Sasha (Mar 29, 2009)

medic417 said:


> So we are getting shot with no guns.  Have you ever thought hey maybe there would be second thoughts on attacking EMS if they thought we might just shoot back?  The idiots that will shoot us armed would shoot us unarmed, the difference is if we survive the initial attack we have a chance of stopping them when they come in to finish us.



Or instead of thinking twice, when they might have shot to injure, they'll now shoot to kill!


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## medic417 (Mar 29, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Or instead of thinking twice, when they might have shot to injure, they'll now shoot to kill!



Actually very view people with guns can aim that well they just shoot at the biggest mass which is the chest area so no change.  It's not like the old west movies where they shoot guns out of hands on purpose.  They shoot where they are most likely to hit.  Odds are you get shot in the arm that was not where they aimed but an accident.


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## Sasha (Mar 29, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Actually very view people with guns can aim that well they just shoot at the biggest mass which is the chest area so no change.  It's not like the old west movies where they shoot guns out of hands on purpose.  They shoot where they are most likely to hit.  Odds are you get shot in the arm that was not where they aimed but an accident.



And you, oh mighty armed EMS person, will be able to aim when someone who probably uses their gun more than you, can't?


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 29, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Wait, I forgot. Half of you guys are straight out of Gunsmoke, right?



I'm going to take this one to PM, because I don't want to give myself an infraction for my response.

I am going to say this for the rest of those reading this thread, though.  Are there people who carry a weapon that have the "Gunsmoke" mentality, and are looking for a reason to use it?  Yep, just like there are medics out there looking to give every drug in the box just because they can.  

However, the great majority of people carrying concealed firearms legally are not of that mentality, just like the great majority of paramedics don't look to empty their drug box on every call.  They make an effort to not get involved in situations like that because they understand the responsibility of carrying a weapon, and the consequences of using it...justified or not.  These are people that have generally completed criminal background checks, been finger printed, have taken a firearms class, and in some states like mine, have to undergo a pyschological background check also.  How many paramedics have to go through all of those?  I'm sure some areas require it, but not all.

Curt, you bring up an interesting point but also miss a major aspect of it.  When you are shooting in self defense, you are not shooting to kill.  You are shooting to stop the threat - in other words to get the other guy to stop shooting at you.  Even if you miss, you will interfere with his aim and make him take cover or rethink his actions.  Those few seconds may be all you need to get the hell out of Dodge.


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## RMSP05 (Mar 29, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Or instead of thinking twice, when they might have shot to injure, they'll now shoot to kill!



People are usually less likely to shoot at someone that will shoot back.  So instead of the person shooting, he may have thought twice and not shot at all.  I wouldn't carry a gun while on duty even though i am a strong advocate for the second ammendment.  However if it got to the point that i felt like my safety was in jepordy, i would start carrying.  *But* i have received the same training and passed the same proficency test that all LEO's in Maine receive.


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## Hockey (Mar 29, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Or instead of thinking twice, when they might have shot to injure, they'll now shoot to kill!



Nobody shoots to injure.  Nobody shoots to kill (non-military)

You shoot to _stop the threat_


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## RMSP05 (Mar 29, 2009)

Hockey9019 said:


> Nobody shoots to injure.  Nobody shoots to kill (non-military)
> 
> You shoot to _stop the threat_



Exacly, everyone has the perception that if you shot the person in the leg they would stop and that would be enough.  It is extremely had to hit someone there.  That is why LEO's are trained to shoot for center mass, and if the person still comes at them, the escalate to shooting them in the head.  No one wants to shoot that way, but they want to protect themselves and everyone else.  The shooting tends to stop when the person is no longer a threat to anyone.


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## 281mustang (Mar 29, 2009)

I think that it should be an option available to EMS. Although I also think that there should be specialized EMS training that gets into self defense, psyche patients, ect. instead of just your run of the mill 2 hour CCW course.


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## mycrofft (Mar 29, 2009)

*Let's find out the facts...*

Go to the Nat Labor Relations Board or somesuch and see how many EMS personnel are injured or killed by assailants annually.
I will bet you a nice shiney quarter that more EMS personnel are killed by firearms in domestic disputes, and maybe by other EMS personnel, off duty than are even credibly threatened on the job.
Next, find the lawsuits which may have arisen from those killed on the job and see how they turned out. 
Finally, find somone who had to actually shoot another person and ask them about the repercussions even for a so called "good shoot"...PTSD, law suits from the decedent's family, maybe being fired to distance the company form the shooter. And the cost of keeping certified, plus range time, ammo, maintenance..and if someone steals your piece, it's a whole new world.

Maybe ok for people out in the far middle of nowhere, but in town, no.


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## medic417 (Mar 29, 2009)

Sasha said:


> And you, oh mighty armed EMS person, will be able to aim when someone who probably uses their gun more than you, can't?



I'm doing the same aim they are chest.  Hopefully mine is more steady and I drop them.  But if I have no gun and they come to finish me off I have no hope.  So how does that feel almighty sitting dead duck person?


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## Veneficus (Mar 29, 2009)

medic417 said:


> I'm doing the same aim they are chest.  Hopefully mine is more steady and I drop them.  But if I have no gun and they come to finish me off I have no hope.  So how does that feel almighty sitting dead duck person?



So long as I can think and move, I am not a sitting duck. (besides, it hurts to get bit by a duck)

I know this has been a great debate about the "Doc" Holiday EMS agency, but just perhaps if you are that concerned over being in a situation you need a gun maybe it would be good to spend some time learning what to do when you don't have one?

So that in whatever place you find yourself you can live long enough to at least draw your weapon.

"He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day"

You may not have a "duty" to retreat, but unless you are looking to go down in a blaze of glory, it might not be a bad option to back out.

as my all time favorite philosopher said:

"Great warriors do not fight to win, they win and then fight"
-Sun Tzu


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## medic417 (Mar 29, 2009)

Veneficus said:


> So long as I can think and move, I am not a sitting duck. (besides, it hurts to get bit by a duck)
> 
> I know this has been a great debate about the "Doc" Holiday EMS agency, but just perhaps if you are that concerned over being in a situation you need a gun maybe it would be good to spend some time learning what to do when you don't have one?
> 
> ...



You can not always run away.  There may be no way out and my hands which are very good weapons along with my brain will not keep me alive when a bullet hits my brain.  My Brain is what I used to find a place to hide in while I pull my gun.  My brain is what allows me to despite pain and adrenalin to control my gun to shoot the bad guy if they do approach to finish me off.  I am not advocating the OK corral stand up and shoot it out.  I am advocating a gun as another means of defense when use of my hands will not be enough.


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## Jon (Mar 29, 2009)

Wow... I'm impressed... Over 24 hours, Many pages of posts, and there's no lock yet  Seriously... I didn't think it would last this long ... Good job. I'm sure there are lots of PM's flying, too.

Thanks, everyone, for keeping this a civil discussion.



Now, to clarify the point about "shooting to stop the threat" anyone with training should be doing that. The idea of anyone with training in lethal force attempting to use a firearm as anything other than lethal force is silly. Further... If I point a gun at someone, it is with the intent to shoot them. If I fire a gun at someone, it is with the intent to shoot someone. Just to clarify... Warning shots are a dumb idea... As are "shooting them in the arm or leg"

I have some firearm training, including the state's armed security cert... The trainjg is simple... Stop the threat. That usually means shooting "center mass" until the subject either drops the gun or is no longer able to threaten you with it.
Anyway... If a LEO wants to elaborate further on what their department policies are.

Jon


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## MedicAngel (Mar 29, 2009)

I am going to 2nd Jon's sentiments, THANK YOU all for keeping it civil. And to the one who continues to be sarcasm, we get what your trying to say, we all would like to keep this civil so if you can't type something without being snarky, back away, go get an iced cappuccino and chill on the couch with some chick flick and feel good dvd. 

I have a concealed carry permit, or ccp. I am licensed in the state of VA and I take carrying on my own time seriously. My husband is former military and he has taught me, aim center mass and take him down. He has also drilled two things into my head, carrying a weapon is an awesome responsibility and if you draw, you had best be prepared to kill and stop the threat. Once you shoot that bullet you can't get it back and you can't wish it away. With the world so sue happy, let me be an EMT with what I was taught and the skills I know, lord knows that in itself is a risk of being sued in and of itself.


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## Hockey (Mar 29, 2009)

Jon said:


> Wow... I'm impressed... Over 24 hours, Many pages of posts, and there's no lock yet  Seriously... I didn't think it would last this long ... Good job. I'm sure there are lots of PM's flying, too.
> 
> Thanks, everyone, for keeping this a civil discussion.
> 
> ...




Not to be too picky, but of course I want to be, it shouldn't be just a gun.  Its a knife, shank, anything.

Heck, even in Michigan, if I see someone getting sexually assaulted, that is enough for deadly force.

Police policies are all going to state to "stop the threat to persons" which can, yes, even mean to "stop" them from fleeing, if you know letting them go will cause someone elses life to be endangered.

But yes, I know what ya mean


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## Ms.Medic (Mar 29, 2009)

Sasha said:


> So. Person pulls a gun. You try to run away and duck behing something while pulling out your gun, you've been shot. Let's say the arm. You still feel that you are going to be able to adequately shoot while injured?
> 
> So how are you gonna justify shooting down someone running at you with a knife?



Darn right,,,,if I get shot in the arm,,,Thats just going to piss me off to the point that with my other arm, bullet to the head...first shot. 

On a lighter note, we are here to stabalize lives, not take them, but we always say "safety first".  I see both sides of the "safety first" rule.

I have numerous weapons in my house, I carry a pistol every day (off duty), and it stays in my vehicle while Im on duty. Im very much into hunting, and shooting as a hobby, but seriously, how many times do we actually need one on an ambulance ? If it was bad enough to warrant one, we probably should not have taken that pt in the first place...
While we cant always know when someone will turn nuts on us on scene or in the back, we CAN ALWAYS take extra safety measures to ensure that we wouldnt need a weapon.  How about having the patient searched before we transport, how about having the patient empty purses/pockets, how about having pd on scene with us every chance possible, etc, etc.
Im for not carrying a weapon while on "EMS duty": its been said for decades, "we risk our lives to save others", everyone knows theres risks involved, thats part of what we do. Us dealing with a psych pt. is like a firefighter going into an unstable structure fire. Thats just part of it. 

For those that are scared to be on an ambulance without a firearm: there are sooo many closed quater combat courses/defense tactics to take, and I myself have taken 3 so far in the last 6 years, and I feel very confident that I can talk a situation down, and if worse comes to worse, handle my own should I get stuck in the middle of a sticky situation. 

So, by no means am I anti weapon, but as far as on an ambulance where we carry children, elders,,,Ummm, NO


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## Veneficus (Mar 29, 2009)

Ms.Medic said:


> Darn right,,,,if I get shot in the arm,,,Thats just going to piss me off to the point that with my other arm, bullet to the head...first shot.
> 
> On a lighter note, we are here to stabalize lives, not take them, but we always say "safety first".  I see both sides of the "safety first" rule.
> 
> ...



It is nice to see there are some reasonable attitudes when it comes to the value of carrying a firearm on a truck.


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## medic417 (Mar 29, 2009)

Ms.Medic said:


> While we cant always know when someone will turn nuts on us on scene or in the back, we CAN ALWAYS take extra safety measures to ensure that we wouldn't need a weapon.  How about having the patient searched before we transport, how about having the patient empty purses/pockets, how about having pd on scene with us every chance possible, etc, etc.



No scene is ever safe.  If they will not properly fund EMS how can we expect them to send a cop on every call?  Searching every patient will definitely have patients thinking we are cops.  

A concealed gun would not be seen. No one would know it was there.  You would in the back of the ambulance probably just beat the patient with whatever is handy as you are to close.  But you are in a large room in the back of the house to check the difficulty breathing patient.  You find she is having difficulty breathing because husband beat heck out of her.   As you realize this the husband raises a gun fires. You fall out of his line of sight.  He is walking toward you.  With no gun you are dead.  With a gun you  just might live.  Point is you had no reason to think scene was unsafe, but it was.


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## Sasha (Mar 29, 2009)

> And to the one who continues to be sarcasm, we get what your trying to say, we all would like to keep this civil so if you can't type something without being snarky, back away, go get an iced cappuccino and chill on the couch with some chick flick and feel good dvd.



Thanks, mod in training! I'll be sure to get RIGHT on that! 



> Im for not carrying a weapon while on "EMS duty": its been said for decades, "we risk our lives to save others", everyone knows theres risks involved, thats part of what we do.



Shock! Something we actually agree on!



> If they will not properly fund EMS how can we expect them to send a cop on every call?



Do you think they'll be able to get the funding to provide every EMS personnel with guns? If not, you are doing your coworkers a disservice. No one will know who has a gun and who doesn't, possibly opening up your coworkers to attack.




> Point is you had no reason to think scene was unsafe, but it was.


ALL scenes are persumed dangerous.


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## kymtgpro (Mar 29, 2009)

I am by all means pro-gun.  I own handguns, High power (sniper rifles), shotguns, and archery equipment.  I go to the firing range often, and believe that anyone that wants to obtain a concealed weapon should jump through the necessary hoops to do so.  The more good guys that are armed, the more the bad guys have to worry about... just my opinion.

That being said, I dont see the need for armed EMS personnel.  It just signals to the criminal that they have one more armed obstacle to take care of.  I do carry a pocket knife, and am not strictly opposed to having a secured pistol in the cab.  But that wouldn't be much use in most scenarios.

Im also not very fond of EMT's wearing uniforms that can be mistaken for police uniforms.  I dont need slacks with a stripe down the seam or a badge.  It is entirely possible to look professional without mimicking police issues.


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## medic417 (Mar 29, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Do you think they'll be able to get the funding to provide every EMS personnel with guns? If not, you are doing your coworkers a disservice. No one will know who has a gun and who doesn't, possibly opening up your coworkers to attack.




We are not talking having the service arm people.  We are talking having the option to carry concealed for those that want to.  Actually people might think twice about trying to attack us because they do not know which amoung us may be armed.  It works both ways.  It would stop in my opinion more attacks than it would encourage.

And as I've said before best policy for a service is no policy on concealed weapons so they limit their risk and the public is not notified that we are armed or that we can not be armed which would in my opinion lead to more people seeing us as easy targets.


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## medic417 (Mar 29, 2009)

kymtgpro said:


> Im also not very fond of EMT's wearing uniforms that can be mistaken for police uniforms.  I dont need slacks with a stripe down the seam or a badge.  It is entirely possible to look professional without mimicking police issues.




I agree I do not want to look like a cop or a firefighter.  We are PreHospital Medical Professionals and should dress as such.


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## Sasha (Mar 29, 2009)

Well, medic417, I think we will have to agree to disagree. None of us know for sure, it's all speculation. You're for it, I'm oppose. Neither one of us are right, and neither one of us are wrong.


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## FF-EMT Diver (Mar 29, 2009)

Ok Im gonna join in medic417, you make some good points and I agree a lot seeing what I do sometimes as a medic. but on the truck I don't feel it has any place I would be more afraid of my hotheaded partner for the day get me into a situation because he's got a gun and he can be Mr. badself and that puts me into a position to have to defend myself, Not to speak of the possible inability to shoot and me being in close proximity to their gun.

For the sake of it take GOOD classes on Verbal jitsu, Self defence, and learn how to take their gun if they're in close proximity.

Also the threat is stopped when they're dead or incapacitated, And I train with a doubletap to the Chest and one to the head in case they're smart crminal with body armor.


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## Ms.Medic (Mar 29, 2009)

Hockey9019 said:


> Nobody shoots to injure.  Nobody shoots to kill (non-military)
> 
> You shoot to _stop the threat_



Ummm, Nope your wrong, If I shoot, yeah its definetly to kill. I dont play games.


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## fortsmithman (Mar 29, 2009)

Ms.Medic said:


> Ummm, Nope your wrong, If I shoot, yeah its definetly to kill. I dont play games.



Here in Canada I read various firearms related publications from the USA.  From what I've read people who state they shoot to kill rather than shoot to stop the threat are the ones who lose civil lawsuits brought on by the badguy or his family.  They are also the ones who get sent to jail.  Another way of saying shooting to stop the threat is shooting to live.  That is by shooting the bad guy so that one can live.


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## Ms.Medic (Mar 29, 2009)

medic417 said:


> No scene is ever safe.  If they will not properly fund EMS how can we expect them to send a cop on every call?  Searching every patient will definitely have patients thinking we are cops.
> 
> Point is you had no reason to think scene was unsafe, but it was.



Actually, point is,,,every scene imo should be unsafe. And, like carrying a weapon wouldnt have them thinking that we were cops, right ?  Um, wrong. And a cop on EVERY call ??? I think my words were "every chance possible".


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## Ms.Medic (Mar 29, 2009)

fortsmithman said:


> Here in Canada I read various firearms related publications from the USA.  From what I've read people who state they shoot to kill rather than shoot to stop the threat are the ones who lose civil lawsuits brought on by the badguy or his family.  They are also the ones who get sent to jail.  Another way of saying shooting to stop the threat is shooting to live.  That is by shooting the bad guy so that one can live.



Well, honestly, who isnt going to sue over that ??? In todays time, your gettin sued whether you shoot, or you were shot...And, am I going to shoot someone in hopes that they say oh nevermind, you shot me, Im not going to shoot back,,,usually when you pull a gun out, on someone who has a loaded weapon, someones going down.......Im not chancing it.....Im shooting to kill.


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## fortsmithman (Mar 29, 2009)

If ou're going to use a firearm read some firearms publications.  Combat Handguns is a good publication read anything written by Massad Ayoob he runs a company called Lethal Force Institute.  From my understanding he will teach when to shoot and the legalities civil and criminal.  Massad Ayoob's company website is at.
http://www.ayoob.com/


By the way I am not anti firearms I am pro firearms ownership.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 30, 2009)

Ms.Medic said:


> Ummm, Nope your wrong, If I shoot, yeah its definetly to kill. I dont play games.





Ms.Medic said:


> Well, honestly, who isnt going to sue over that ??? In todays time, your gettin sued whether you shoot, or you were shot...And, am I going to shoot someone in hopes that they say oh nevermind, you shot me, Im not going to shoot back,,,usually when you pull a gun out, on someone who has a loaded weapon, someones going down.......Im not chancing it.....Im shooting to kill.



And if you go to court with comments like those, you will lose like fortsmithman said.  You try to stop the threat, no more, no less.  If the threat can't be stopped short of killing them, so be it.  But if the subject is obviously incapacitated and is no longer a threat, then you stop shooting.


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## reaper (Mar 30, 2009)

ffemt8978 said:


> And if you go to court with comments like those, you will lose like fortsmithman said.  You try to stop the threat, no more, no less.  If the threat can't be stopped short of killing them, so be it.  But if the subject is obviously incapacitated and is no longer a threat, then you stop shooting.



They are a threat, until the clip is emptied!


 I have a question. Should LEO not be allowed to carry a firearm? I mean according to most of the logic here, they will be shot at more, if they are armed. So if we disarm them, no one will shoot at them!


How many of the people replying here against this, has ever been attacked on duty and shot at on duty???? I have been attacked and shot at three times, being hit once.

I think one should be able to carry personal CCP on duty, if the right training is taken. They should have to receive the same training as LEO. This should all be on a case by case basis.

I know that most will not see the light on this subject. But, until you are the one being shot at, you won't understand the need. I don't think you are wrong in your thoughts. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I just think you don't see the need, until you are the one praying you get home to see your kids!


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## fortsmithman (Mar 30, 2009)

reaper said:


> They are a threat, until the clip is emptied!:



It's not a clip they're called magazines.  As well they're not called guns they're weapons or firearms.


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## fortsmithman (Mar 30, 2009)

reaper said:


> They are a threat, until the clip is emptied!
> I think one should be able to carry personal CCP on duty, if the right training is taken. They should have to receive the same training as LEO. This should all be on a case by case basis.



OK but also the same psychological screening LEOs go through should also be followed.


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## Shishkabob (Mar 30, 2009)

"This is my rifle, this is my gun.  This ones for fighting, this ones for fun"



It annoys me when people say clip too... R Lee Ermy described it best in his show Mail Call:  Paper clips go inside magazines, therefor, clips go inside magazines.

A stripper clip is used to put ammunition inside of a magazine.


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## reaper (Mar 30, 2009)

fortsmithman said:


> It's not a clip they're called magazines.  As well they're not called guns they're weapons or firearms.



 A clip is internal as in a handgun. A magazine is external as in an assault rifle.

They are not call handfirearms or longfirearms. They are handguns and longguns!


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## reaper (Mar 30, 2009)

fortsmithman said:


> OK but also the same psychological screening LEOs go through should also be followed.




That's why I stated that they recieve the same training as LEO!


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## fortsmithman (Mar 30, 2009)

reaper said:


> A clip is internal as in a handgun. A magazine is external as in an assault rifle.
> 
> They are not call handfirearms or longfirearms. They are handguns and longguns!


It's not a clip pistols carry magazines assault rifles carry magazines as well.  They are pistols and rifles.  Maybe the USA should start a miltary cadet system for youth.  Here in Canada we have Army Cadet, Air Cadets, and Sea Cadets for youth 12 yrs to 18 yrs.  In cadets one learns to call a magazine a magazine and not a clip.


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## reaper (Mar 30, 2009)

You say potato, I say spud!


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## MedicAngel (Mar 30, 2009)

I too think IF you MUST carry then go through the classes, training and range time a LEO does. If you want to carry a tazer then fine, are you ready to be tazed just like they are? I have seen what that does to a person and no thank you!!


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## medic417 (Mar 30, 2009)

When I was involved in law enforcement many many years ago we did not get anything but pass or fail during our firearms qualifications.  Why?  Because if you scored high it would be easier for an attorney to attempt to prove you could have just wounded the criminal, and based on some peoples attitudes on here is easy to see how they could sway the jury with that.  Also we were always taught as someone else mentioned not to say I shot to kill but I shot to stop the threat.   

I like the point someone else mentioned based on the arguments some have made that us having *concealed* handguns would make us more likely to get attacked, so take guns from the cops and that would by those theory's stop the attacks.  

Point of concealed carry is no one will know you have a gun.  It's not like I'm going to strap on my 44 in a low hung fast draw holster begging someone to try me, you will never know whether I have my 40 or 9 or nothing.   Why? Because a smart service will not make it required to have a gun but they also will not say you can not carry concealed.


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## Sasha (Mar 30, 2009)

> I like the point someone else mentioned based on the arguments some have made that us having concealed handguns would make us more likely to get attacked, so take guns from the cops and that would by those theory's stop the attacks.



Carrying a fire arm is part of a cop's job. It is not part of an EMT or Paramedic's job.



> Point of concealed carry is no one will know you have a gun.


Until you use it, once. Then the news headlines will be "Paramedic Shoots Patient" or something. And then in public's view, every person on an ambulance carries a gun.


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## AJ Hidell (Mar 30, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Carrying a fire arm is part of a cop's job. It is not part of an EMT or Paramedic's job.


Irrelevant.  That's like saying it's a taxi driver's job to drive, so we shouldn't transport patients.  The cop's job is to protect the public.  This isn't about our job.  The job has nothing to do with it.  This is about protecting yourself.  That's not a job.  That's a right.  That's the whole point.  The job should have no say and no bearing on your choice or ability to defend yourself.  The law says it's legal.  That should be the end of the discussion.  As medic417 noted, if your employer  presumes to supercede that right, then he is taking liability for your safety, should you suffer from their disarmament.  Conversely, if they take no position on the situation, they have no liability for your actions.  Ignorance is bliss, and to not address it at all is the most legally prudent position for an EMS agency to take.


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## Veneficus (Mar 30, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> The job should have no say and no bearing on your choice or ability to defend yourself.  The law says it's legal.  That should be the end of the discussion.  As medic417 noted, if your employer  presumes to supercede that right, then he is taking liability for your safety, should you suffer from their disarmament.  Conversely, if they take no position on the situation, they have no liability for your actions.  Ignorance is bliss, and to not address it at all is the most legally prudent position for an EMS agency to take.



I am not questioning whether an employer should be able to tell you how to protect yourself. But let's face it, most minimlly trained EMS providers can't make an informed decsion on when to put somebody on a backboard. You want to add a firearm to the mix?

If a provider was working out in the bush somewhere,a provider may need a firearm for protection from the indiginous species. (people in the urban jungle excluded) 

But many of the replies here I have seen seem to not be based on risk/benefit comparison but a "what if" situation that even the most experienced people have never been in and sounds like they expect a gunfight like the O.K. Corral.  

"when the psych patient pulls a gun I will pull mine quicker and shoot him or "After I take cover, the advancing under coverfire gunman is going to come finish me off. But I will surprise him and shoot him dead." 

Please I have put it to geat minds and could not find one instance. Can anyone find a documented instance of this happening outside of a military environment or a state under siege?

What's next? Make sure you have a backup weapon too? Back up to the back up? Pretty soon you look like Swartzenegger in "Commando" and you haven't even picked up your medical gear yet. Maybe a some urban Cammies to hide in? How about a gillie suit? Is "Scene safe" gonna mean you stopped a mile up the road and checked the area out from the scope of your M82A3 and cautiously advance while your partner covers you to the address because the cops can't come to help you with such a high risk entry because they are tracking down the dude that held up Krispy Kreme?

This just in...

"Paramedics dynamically enter a residence shoot woman and 2 children dead, after securing the scene, they procede to work the cardiac arrest victim, to find out on arrival that the ET tube was in the esophagus."


Think my reply sounds stupid? ask some non ems providers to read the comments here.


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## VentMedic (Mar 30, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> Irrelevant. That's like saying it's a taxi driver's job to drive, so we shouldn't transport patients. The cop's job is to protect the public. This isn't about our job. The job has nothing to do with it. This is about protecting yourself. That's not a job. That's a right. That's the whole point. The job should have no say and no bearing on your choice or ability to defend yourself. *The law says it's legal.* That should be the end of the discussion. As medic417 noted, if your employer presumes to supercede that right, then he is taking liability for your safety, should you suffer from their disarmament. Conversely, if they take no position on the situation, they have no liability for your actions. Ignorance is bliss, and to not address it at all is the most legally prudent position for an EMS agency to take.


 
Before advising someone to just use their permit to carry or concealed weapons permit as a justification to use the gun at their place of employment, they must read their permit laws very carefully. These rules will vary from state to state so it is not wise to make this a blanket statement for carrying a weapon at work.

It takes very little to get a concealed weapons permit in most states. They will usually advise that you must consult with your employer or make your employer aware that you will be carrying a weapons on their property. The ambulance is part of their property. If the rules of the concealed weapons permit are abided by, you would be very limited to where you could run calls. If you store the gun in the ambulance, you again would be subject to the rules of carrying a weapons in a vehicle. If you must leave your weapon behind in the ambulance, you would need secure storage and hope that gun does not fall into the wrong hands. If you are working with a patient or at a crowded scene, losing control of your weapon to the patient can be a serious issue as one police officer found out earlier this week in a CA emergency room. 


Some of the restrictions: (the wording of two very different states: ND and FL)

*ND*


> State law prohibits firearms and dangerous weapons (concealed or otherwise) in liquor establishments, gaming sites and at any public gathering, including: sporting events, schools or school functions, churches or church functions, political rallies or functions, musical concerts, publicly owned or operated buildings, and publicly owned parks where hunting is not allowed.​


 
*FL*​ 


> 790.06(12) - No license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize any person to carry a concealed weapon or firearm into any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05; any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station; any detention facility, prison, or jail; any courthouse; any courtroom, except that nothing in this section would preclude a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon in his or her courtroom; any polling place; any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district; any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof; any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms; any school administration building; any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose; any elementary or secondary school facility; any area vocational-technical center; any college or university facility unless the licensee is a registered student, employee, or faculty member of such college or university and the weapon is a stun gun or nonlethal electric weapon or device designed solely for defensive purposes and the weapon does not fire a dart or projectile; inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport, provided that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, which firearm is encased for shipment for purposes of checking such firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft; or any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law. Any person who willfully violates any provision of this subsection commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s 775.082 or s. 775.083.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 30, 2009)

Veneficus said:


> But many of the replies here I have seen seem to not be based on risk/benefit comparison but a "what if" situation that even the most experienced people have never been in and sounds like they expect a gunfight like the O.K. Corral.
> 
> "when the psych patient pulls a gun I will pull mine quicker and shoot him or "After I take cover, the advancing under coverfire gunman is going to come finish me off. But I will surprise him and shoot him dead."
> 
> Please I have put it to geat minds and could not find one instance. Can anyone find a documented instance of this happening outside of a military environment or a state under siege?



Hmm...I've looked, but all I could find was this
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=11109
but wait, that doesn't apply to your theory because the medic was unarmed and was therefore killed.  And therein lies the crux...how many more of us must be killed by our patients or bystanders before something constructive and productive is done about it?

And for those of you that think it's LE job to protect you, I've got a newsflash for you.  LE is under NO OBLIGATION to protect you.  If you believe otherwise, you may want to check out Warren vs District of Columbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia)


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## Veneficus (Mar 30, 2009)

ffemt8978 said:


> Hmm...I've looked, but all I could find was this
> http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=11109
> but wait, that doesn't apply to your theory because the medic was unarmed and was therefore killed.  And therein lies the crux...how many more of us must be killed by our patients or bystanders before something constructive and productive is done about it?
> 
> And for those of you that think it's LE job to protect you, I've got a newsflash for you.  LE is under NO OBLIGATION to protect you.  If you believe otherwise, you may want to check out Warren vs District of Columbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia)



I read that when it was first posted. The article does not say whether the EMT was shot in the back or what. It also shows that he tried to flee, not make a stand. (maybe his partner is alive because he let that person go first) and not to be mean, but looking at his picture, he was not a small target, reducing his silhouette wasn't much of an option. Also It wasn't until after they heard the action of a weapon they decided to leave. Which was way too late. Some other safety tips like having planned an egress may also have helped. How about rule #1, anytime a patient leaves your site in an area familiar to them it is to retrieve a weapon until proven otherwise?

Are you stipulating that if they heard the action of a weapon and decided to respond in kind the outcome would have been different? That is a very strong supposition. I have never been in a CQB gun fight other than laser tag or paintball, but from that experience and the logic of the situation, 2 people launching rounds in a confined space seems like 2 people would end up dead. (maybe even the other partner) The more people you add shooting the more likely everyone will get hit. Let's come back down to reality and realize we are all not Navy SEALS (though maybe a few are or were) and in a fast reaction gun fight it is not going to happen like we imagine at the range. Clausewitz would call it "the fog of war."

Most EMTs are not going to enter a scene with the plan of "if this goes bad, we will have perpendicular crossfire, one will advance while the other provides coverfire... etc." Even if they do have such plan, it may not work out the way they expect. Look at how many cops end up shooting other cops. We haven't even considered hostages or bystanders. 

Maybe some body armor would have served him (and others) better? We will never know. But if you have it, probably best to wear it all the time, not just when you think you will need it.

I do not think it is anyone's responsibility to protect me. Which is why in a stressful situation you may find me thinking and acting instead of praying and hoping divine intervention will save me. I see people pray for help all the time, I have seen very few results. So at the very least the odds are not good. I think there was also a supreme court case that absolved police from a duty to protect. 

But lets look at some other important details. There are new people, possibly still in school here with that "save the world" "action Jackson" attitude reading this. People who may look up to *YOU* Who may think if you say a gun is needed they follow suit. Maybe without your knowledge or skill. Maybe with a different set of rules or laws. Now this person may feel more confident carrying a gun. Making a confrontation more likely. 

It was suggested that I made an arguement EMS providers would increase the likelyhood of being assaulted by carrying weapons. I stand by the opinion it likely would. But the same does not hold true of LE. There is considerable animosity harbored towards LEOs and the frequences of direct attacks on police by firearms seems considerably higher than EMS. 

In the recent incident in Oakland, people were cheering the shooter! As I said many pages ago, you shoot somebody in a bad neighborhood, even in the right, and you may not make it out that day. Consider yourself a target if you go back. 

Next we'll be having a discussion on EMS providers having to wear a 
balaclava to protect their identity. How many wear a nametag now? You really think that is safe? Maybe if you are "Mike Smith" it might be. Certianly not with my last name, and you'll more likely need that gun when somebody shows up at your door than you would have when you met them on scene. 

As for "returning fire." In a populated area, if fired upon you are going to return fire at what exactly? A muzzle flash? Where you think the shots are coming from? At the guy holding a gun standing behind his abused girlfriend? Or are you going to try to out draw your concealed weapon the girl who pulls a gun on you when you initially thought you would have no need of your weapon? Are you going to decide to back away or eliminate the 80 year old altered LOC patient that thinks you are breaking down his door to kill him on the welfare check and opened fire on you? (provided he hasn't already killed you because you didn't go in with your gun drawn) God help you if you did go in with a drawn weapon. 

Like I said, you want to carry on duty, that is your decision, but put me on the record as saying it will not be the panecea of protection you think it will be.


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## el Murpharino (Mar 30, 2009)

Would the individual ambulance companies have the final say in whether or not we could carry weapons if a law was passed allowing us to do so?  I'm pretty sure most ambulance companies will say the risk/reward is too high.  We are a dime a dozen to many companies, and in essence expendable.  Additionally, companies feel how they are perceived in the public eye is paramount...the risk of a public relations nightmare stemming from an innocent civilian shot by a trigger-happy EMT far outweighs the alternative.  Professional police officers have shot unarmed and uninvolved civilians in their zest to "stop the threat".  Imagine how most prehospital providers would act in similar situations?


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## fortsmithman (Mar 30, 2009)

With Concealed carry permits having restrictions on wear you can carry and where you can't the only solution would be for police services to take over EMS and have all EMTs and paramedics sworn in as LEOs.  If that were to happen how many EMTs and paramedics would resign and find new careers.  Because that would be the only way for EMS personnel to carry concealed since civilian carry permits have a lot of restriction on where you can carry.  LEOs don't have those restrictions.


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## Sasha (Mar 30, 2009)

> With Concealed carry permits having restrictions on wear you can carry and where you can't the only solution would be for police services to take over EMS and have all EMTs and paramedics sworn in as LEOs. If that were to happen hw many EMTs and paramedics would resign and find new careers. Because that would be the only way for EMS personnel to carry concealed since civilian carry permits have a lot of restriction on where you can carry. LEOs don't have those restrictions.



I'd leave the profession if we were forced to be LEOs. 
Also, if EMTs and Paramedics are allowed to carry guns, I'd prefer to work with people who WEREN'T carrying.


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## ClarkKent (Mar 31, 2009)

EMT should not be carrying a gun.  We are here to save lives, NOT TAKE THEM.  But I do believe that EMT should be able to defend them self.  I do not see a problem with carrying a tazer, it does not take a life, but will save yours.


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## reaper (Mar 31, 2009)

ClarkKent said:


> EMT should not be carrying a gun.  We are here to save lives, NOT TAKE THEM.  But I do believe that EMT should be able to defend them self.  I do not see a problem with carrying a tazer, it does not take a life, but will save yours.



I prefer to not bring a taser to a gun fight!h34r:


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## RMSP05 (Mar 31, 2009)

reaper said:


> I prefer to not bring a taser to a gun fight!h34r:



I second that, it would be about as effective as bringing a knife to a gun fight, eitherway you are on the loosing side.


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## AJ Hidell (Mar 31, 2009)

el Murpharino said:


> Would the individual ambulance companies have the final say in whether or not we could carry weapons if a law was passed allowing us to do so?  I'm pretty sure most ambulance companies will say the risk/reward is too high.


If they come to that conclusion, then they didn't do a risk/reward assessment at all.  The statistics show that EMS providers suffer among the highest rate of violence of all professions.  Now, try and find me some statistics showing that EMS personnel dole out a significant amount of violence.  Show me the reports.  Show me the numbers.  Show me any concrete evidence that EMS personnel are highly likely to engage in violent behavior.  You can't do it.  If a company chooses to limit their personnel's ability to protect themselves and others, it is not because of any evidence to support the move.  It's strictly out of ignorant fear.  And that goes to perfectly illustrate the nature of the discussion we are having here.  Those that have the facts are for it.  Those who have nothing but irrational, emotionally driven, ignorant fears are against it.  And those people would never let the facts get in the way of their opinions.

As for this nonsense about having to be an LEO, and people leaving EMS if you force them to be LEOs, where the heck do you come up with that kind of stuff?  Do you just make this stuff up as you go in an order to sidetrack the discussion?  It's a non-factor that has no relevance to the topic at hand.


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## Veneficus (Mar 31, 2009)

AJ,

Do you think that putting a firarm in the hands of a young person (in EMS or not) that the feeling of increased power or invulnerability isn't increased?

I agree with you EMS and ED professionals are subject to a high level of violence. I agree something should be done. I just disagree a firearm is the answer. (I am not antigun, I will be at the range Saturday, you can rent an STG 44 here, among some other vintage and modern automatic weapons, very cool)

Some of the other posts are exactly correct too, I would not want to bring a tazer or a knife to a gunfight. 

It is clearly evident that emergency providers find themselves the victims of violence. Some are even seriously injured or killed. I have been assaulted by patients, both in and out of the hospital. I have fortunatly never had to stare down a gun or knife point in such a role, but I have wrestled with my fair share, and the fact that nobody could reach for a weapon (aka a gun) on me (unless you count trauma sheers) made things much easier.

The idea of a tazer, pepper spray and the like seem just as useless to me. 

But let's be candid. Most of the EMS people I am involved with teaching are not ready for the responsibility of bringing a firearm to work. (or anywhere else for that matter) But once it is decided it is ok to carry a firearm it cannot be ok for AJ, Reaper, or me and not ok for anyone else. If it is for and under the auspice of "protection" then you cannot exclude anyone.

While not as sacred as it used to be, healthcare providers do still carry some measure of accepted neutrality. Most of the people I have been involved in altercations with were somehow impaired. ETOH, Psych, diabetics, hepatic encephalitis. We have laws and rules guiding what force we can use against these people. Frankly I think the rules suck. They can hurt me, but I cannot hurt them and I am expected to help.

The weapon I am most worried about being assualted with in a healthcare setting is a needle. They are everywhere. I always seem to have one (or several) in arm's reach. (not because of the possibility of infection, because it is a piece of stainless steel readily available)

Many people could carry a weapon their entire career and nobody would be the wiser. But what happens if you pull out a gun and shoot somebody at work today? The civil and criminal litigation that follows will not be easy or pleasant. Will you still have a job? What if you are found to not be in the right by a jury? Nevermind you, will the 18 year old EMT or 21 year old medic just starting out even be able to afford an attorney for civil and criminal defense? How about a good one? I am willing to bet most employers would not only not provide one, but they would hang that former employee out to dry with the attorney they bought for themselves.

How many people would accept a questionably safe scene because "if things get bad I can protect myself..."? I wouldn't. From talking with you here I doubt you would make that mistake. But as a role model (whether you choose to be or not) concealed carry of a firearm for "protection" seems like a dangerous advocacy. Especially as pointed out under current law. 

In my home state, as of this year there is no "duty to retreat." But there is no duty to go into the home of an altered mental status person and assess his medical condition and render aid either. The law wasn't written for that and I doubt its intent or even applicability is going to be an affirmative defense.


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## AJ Hidell (Mar 31, 2009)

Veneficus said:


> Do you think that putting a firarm in the hands of a young person (in EMS or not) that the feeling of increased power or invulnerability isn't increased?


The minimum age is 21 in every state that I am aware of, with the exception of military and veterans.  Yes, that is still young, but not exactly kids.  And it is older than required to be a security guard, who can carry a gun professionally with no more training than a CHL holder.  How often do we hear of 18-21 year old security guards unjustifiably killing people with their handguns?  Not near as often as we hear of cops doing the same thing with much more training.  Go figure.  In Texas, since the CHL was instituted, not a single case of unjustifiable homicide has been seen with a CHL holder.  So where is the evidence to support your theory?



> But let's be candid. Most of the EMS people I am involved with teaching are not ready for the responsibility of bringing a firearm to work.


I know you feel that way, but it's just an emotional theory with no statistical evidence to back it up.  EBM, remember?



> I agree something should be done. I just disagree a firearm is the answer.


There is no "the answer", as there are many different risks.  To quote the WOPR from "War Games", the only winning move is not to play.  Not coming to work because there is no "the answer" to all of our hazards is not an option.  Therefore, the prudent move is to address those hazards that can be addressed, and to continue to look for answers to the others.


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## fortsmithman (Mar 31, 2009)

How many would leave EMS and find another career if they were required to either carry a firearm or work with another who is.  I wonder if people's attitude towards this topic is based on where they grew up.  How many who say no are from areas that have strict firearms laws.  How many who say yes are from areas where there are lax firearms laws where getting a permit is easy.  There are many argu,ents for carrying and not to carry.  Can we just agree to disagree.


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## AJ Hidell (Mar 31, 2009)

Good riddance to them.

But your partner -- nor anyone else -- should never even know that you are carrying in the first place, so it's a moot point.


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## Sasha (Mar 31, 2009)

> But your partner -- nor anyone else -- should never even know that you are carrying in the first place, so it's a moot point.



I think your partner should know if you choose to carry a firearm. I think I'd have a coronary if I found out the person I've been sitting next to for the last 12 hours had a gun.


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## reaper (Mar 31, 2009)

You would be surprised at the amount that carry and no one is the wiser. I do not carry on duty, since I am not allowed. But, I have seen some that carry and don't care if it is wrong.

So, unless you are doing a pat down on every partner you have, never assume that they are not carrying! Just a thought for you all!


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## VentMedic (Mar 31, 2009)

reaper said:


> You would be surprised at the amount that carry and no one is the wiser. I do not carry on duty, since I am not allowed. But, I have seen some that carry and don't care if it is wrong.
> 
> So, unless you are doing a pat down on every partner you have, never assume that they are not carrying! Just a thought for you all!


 
At several hospitals they can easily find out and you had better disclose it before you enter a locked facility such as a jail, prison, psych facility or detention ward at a hospital. You may also go through a scanner or be wanded. We DO NOT allow employees or anyone from the outside except LE to carry a weapon in our hospital. If you are carrying illegally you will have to answer for it. It may also be confirmed with your employer that it is okay for you to be carrying. Our LEOs usually know what EMS agencies allow conceal weapons on duty, which is none, so they have no problem holding your weapon until your shift is over.

I seriously would not encourage EMS providers on this forum to carry weapons where it may end their career very quickly by lawful reasons or by misuse. If you are caught with the weapon in any of the areas restricted on your permit and you are in violation of the law.  Even knowing you are in violation in these areas means you will easily lie which makes you of questionable character to even hold a position that deals with public responsibility.  Period.


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## Veneficus (Mar 31, 2009)

fortsmithman said:


> How many would leave EMS and find another career if they were required to either carry a firearm or work with another who is.  I wonder if people's attitude towards this topic is based on where they grew up.  How many who say no are from areas that have strict firearms laws.  How many who say yes are from areas where there are lax firearms laws where getting a permit is easy.  There are many argu,ents for carrying and not to carry.  Can we just agree to disagree.



I think we are having a good academic discussion. I know I have gained some insight and looked at a different perspective. Look how far we have made it without a thread lock. We need to have more threads like this.


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## reaper (Mar 31, 2009)

Vent,

 I agree that it is uncommon down there, due to the heavy security at the hospitals. I was stating that it does happen, by people that do not care about the laws. Since probably 95% of hospitals do not have metal detectors or security personnel with wands, at the ambulance entrances. It is hard to catch these people!


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## ClarkKent (Apr 3, 2009)

RMSP05 said:


> I second that, it would be about as effective as bringing a knife to a gun fight, eitherway you are on the loosing side.



I have lived and worked with cop my whole life.  I would like to have something rather then nothing when a gun is pulled.  I can see if a gun was pulled on my there is little I could do with a tazer, but my partner my see that I need help and he can use his in the even that I am unable to get away!!


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## FTRPO (Apr 3, 2009)

Good stuff, some of you have made some really good points some not so much. Forgive me for replying to comments that were posted earlier in the board but I couldnt get past some of them. I know that there are some out there with law enforcement experience and I would appreciate if you would confirm that an officer is not going to ever fire his gun unless he is shooting to kill. RMSP05 thats why there are two shots in the chest and one in the head. To those of you who have said that a gun can be used against you but are for the tazer what makes you think the tazer cant be used against you. And yes tazers can be lethal too. To those that think the citizens will think that every EMT is carrying after one incident are wrong. You dont assume that every citizen is carrying in states that concealed carry is permitted. What about those that think retreating is the answer, you may not always have the opportunity to run and personally I would prefer to put every bullet available to me in the individual who has decided to try and take my life. Veneficus you act like the EMT's are just going to go into a house and shoot the bystanders and get to work, why was the women and two children shot just because the EMT was allowed to carry a gun? Yes Clarkkent you are there to save lives and not take them but there may come a time when you need to take a life to prevent your own death. There was an incident a while ago where a deputy medic in michigan shot a guy and got to work on bringing him back. It is possible. Also this is a concealed carry permit you arent going to be mistaken for a cop when your gun is never going to be visible. Im not attacking anyone Im just saying some of you are being a little far fetched with your comments and as pointed out before your what ifs are a little extreme. And reaper you made some very valid points and I enjoyed everyone of them but I jsut wanted you to know that you would never be able to draw an ankle holster and shoot before someone could take two steps. It has been proven in police academies across the world that an officer cant pull his gun aim and shoot in time to stop a suspect at just 21 feet away. Again Im not going after anyone I just wanted to try and let you all see the other side of things I look forward to hearing from all of you. Oh and what makes some of you think that all of the sudden people are going to want to kill all of the EMT's because they might be carrying concealed. This isnt realistic.


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## Veneficus (Apr 3, 2009)

FTRPO said:


> Good stuff, some of you have made some really good points some not so much. Forgive me for replying to comments that were posted earlier in the board but I couldnt get past some of them. I know that there are some out there with law enforcement experience and I would appreciate if you would confirm that an officer is not going to ever fire his gun unless he is shooting to kill. RMSP05 thats why there are two shots in the chest and one in the head. To those of you who have said that a gun can be used against you but are for the tazer what makes you think the tazer cant be used against you. And yes tazers can be lethal too. To those that think the citizens will think that every EMT is carrying after one incident are wrong. You dont assume that every citizen is carrying in states that concealed carry is permitted. What about those that think retreating is the answer, you may not always have the opportunity to run and personally I would prefer to put every bullet available to me in the individual who has decided to try and take my life. Veneficus you act like the EMT's are just going to go into a house and shoot the bystanders and get to work, why was the women and two children shot just because the EMT was allowed to carry a gun? Yes Clarkkent you are there to save lives and not take them but there may come a time when you need to take a life to prevent your own death. There was an incident a while ago where a deputy medic in michigan shot a guy and got to work on bringing him back. It is possible. Also this is a concealed carry permit you arent going to be mistaken for a cop when your gun is never going to be visible. Im not attacking anyone Im just saying some of you are being a little far fetched with your comments and as pointed out before your what ifs are a little extreme. And reaper you made some very valid points and I enjoyed everyone of them but I jsut wanted you to know that you would never be able to draw an ankle holster and shoot before someone could take two steps. It has been proven in police academies across the world that an officer cant pull his gun aim and shoot in time to stop a suspect at just 21 feet away. Again Im not going after anyone I just wanted to try and let you all see the other side of things I look forward to hearing from all of you. Oh and what makes some of you think that all of the sudden people are going to want to kill all of the EMT's because they might be carrying concealed. This isnt realistic.



I was referring specifically to my experience that less experienced people tend to wield firearms a bit recklessly in the euphoria of being armed. I am sure if you have been around firearms for any length of time you have witnessed this.


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## fmrpddisp (Apr 3, 2009)

FTRPO said:


> Good stuff, some of you have made some really good points some not so much. Forgive me for replying to comments that were posted earlier in the board but I couldnt get past some of them. I know that there are some out there with law enforcement experience and I would appreciate if you would confirm that an officer is not going to ever fire his gun unless he is *shooting to kill*. RMSP05 thats why there are two shots in the chest and one in the head. To those of you who have said that a gun can be used against you but are for the tazer what makes you think the tazer cant be used against you. And yes tazers can be lethal too. To those that think the citizens will think that every EMT is carrying after one incident are wrong. You dont assume that every citizen is carrying in states that concealed carry is permitted. What about those that think retreating is the answer, you may not always have the opportunity to run and personally I would prefer to put every bullet available to me in the individual who has decided to try and take my life. Veneficus you act like the EMT's are just going to go into a house and shoot the bystanders and get to work, why was the women and two children shot just because the EMT was allowed to carry a gun? Yes Clarkkent you are there to save lives and not take them but there may come a time when you need to take a life to prevent your own death. There was an incident a while ago where a deputy medic in michigan shot a guy and got to work on bringing him back. It is possible. Also this is a concealed carry permit you arent going to be mistaken for a cop when your gun is never going to be visible. Im not attacking anyone Im just saying some of you are being a little far fetched with your comments and as pointed out before your what ifs are a little extreme. And reaper you made some very valid points and I enjoyed everyone of them but I jsut wanted you to know that you would never be able to draw an ankle holster and shoot before someone could take two steps. It has been proven in police academies across the world that an officer cant pull his gun aim and shoot in time to stop a suspect at just 21 feet away. Again Im not going after anyone I just wanted to try and let you all see the other side of things I look forward to hearing from all of you. Oh and what makes some of you think that all of the sudden people are going to want to kill all of the EMT's because they might be carrying concealed. This isnt realistic.



It is my opinion and understanding of the laws of the State of Arizona that an officer does not shoot to *kill*, rather to *stop the threat*. Granted, one is most assuredly the same, however vocabulary is everything.


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## AJ Hidell (Apr 3, 2009)

And, of course, the double-tap that is taught in training completely falls apart in actual application, where the officer just starts blasting wildly.  It is EXTREMELY rare to find, on autopsy, that an officer actually practiced the double-tap on someone.


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## gmartin0814 (Apr 5, 2009)

If you are called to a scene, 1st thing is the scene size up, if the scene is not safe, call PD!! I feel that EMTs carrying a gun could end up causing a problem!


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