# Concealed Weapons



## BYNFD09 (Sep 19, 2011)

I am from Wisconsin and we are soon to be getting concealed firearms permits.  Some LE agencies have indicated they will NOT take possession of concealed firearms from patients unless an arrest is following.  How do EMS in states that have concealed carry handle weapons found on patients?
Any help will be greatly appreciated.


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## jjesusfreak01 (Sep 19, 2011)

This is just some thinking not based on any protocols or rules I know of. I would take temporary possession of the firearm if the patient was unconscious and the police refused to take it and turn it over to hospital security, as the patient can't carry them in the hospital anyways. If the patient is conscious, I would advise them that they will not be able to take their firearm into the hospital and request that a security officer meet us at the entrance to take possession of the weapon until the patient is discharged.

Also, if the pt was the least bit combative, anxious, or impaired by substance (and possibly if I planned to make them that way) or injury in any way, I would probably call up the police COC until someone agreed to take the gun. No matter the injury, you can take as long as you need onscene for safety reasons.


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## imadriver (Sep 19, 2011)

In Florida here guns / knives / pool cues are everywhere. 

If we run into something like that we just call for the Police take it. Usually if the situation is such, they are already there. If the patient is critical and I just happen to see it, then I drop it a little distance in a slightly concealed area (back seat of a car, under a coffee table, so on ) and if I see it as a possible high threat in the future, I'm comfortable enough with most guns to discharge the clip and clear the chamber. If there is a gun on scene and no PD, we either withdraw if there is a threat, or call for PD and keep the patient (as inconspicuously as possible) away from the weapon. Make sure you document! And Let PD / Dispatch know about it!

Always stay in communication with your dispatch! We have a couple special radio codes as to not alert anyone else on scene. But it's pretty much:
 "Firearm on scene, no immediate threat, we are okay, send PD"
 "Firearm on scene, high threat, withdrawing, need PD, but we are still alive"
 "Exit Blocked / Man Down / Oh Sh*t"


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## bigbaldguy (Sep 19, 2011)

Generally it takes a month or two for LE to get onboard with concealed weapon protocol. I would be very hesitant to take possession of a loaded fire arm unless there was just absolutely no other way of dealing with. Obviously you don't want to leave a firearm sitting on the side of the road, but maybe locking it in the patients trunk could be an option. Your LE will get onboard eventually once they get over the initial "we don't wanna deal with it" phase.


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## Akulahawk (Sep 19, 2011)

IMHO, most of the time, if your patient is carrying _and_ has a license or permit to do so, you're going to be at little risk by that patient... unless you're dealing with someone who's gone quite far down the irrational road. If your patient is conscious, ask them what they want done with the firearm. _Don't just grab for it though_. Reach for my gun without asking and I'll give you a beating you'll never forget... or possibly remember. I'd consider that a direct attempt at threatening my life.

If it's in a holster and the patient is unconscious... take the whole assembly off, leave the gun in the holster and don't fark around with it. The gun will likely be a LOT safer in the holster than out of it. Notify LE or hospital security to take protective custody of the firearm.


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## medicdan (Sep 19, 2011)

Coincidentally, I had a scenario requiring it over the summer. My experience (at former employers) has been to call PD to the scene non-emergent, and they have been happy to take possession of the firearm until the patient reclaims it. 

I have a personal policy that only uniformed LEOs and COs are permitted firearms in my ambulance, and only if they are supervising a patient, never when they are a patient. 

When the patient is released from the hospital, they are welcome to reclaim their firearm at the police station, upon showing valid LTC/CCP.


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## bigbaldguy (Sep 19, 2011)

So did anyone actually read the ops original statement regarding the fact the LE in his area has said they will not take possession of the firearms?


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## medicdan (Sep 19, 2011)

bigbaldguy said:


> So did anyone actually read the ops original statement regarding the fact the LE in his area has said they will not take possession of the firearms?



Yes, and I was saying that there are departments that are happy to take custody of firearms...

I do not have an LTC, and do not feel comfortable handling possibly armed firearms. I frankly don't know how to check to see if the gun is armed or to disarm it, and if my patient is incapable of unloading, i'm forced to leave the gun on scene- I won't allow it in my vehicle unless verifiably unloaded.


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## Akulahawk (Sep 19, 2011)

bigbaldguy said:


> So did anyone actually read the ops original statement regarding the fact the LE in his area has said they will not take possession of the firearms?


Yes... that's why I included hospital security. If LE won't handle the firearm (and may not have authority to do so unless the LTC/CCW holder is about to be arrested), security _should_ have the ability to take temporary possession of the firearm and store it safely until the patient or designated representative can retrieve it from storage. 

The directions about removing the entire holster/gun assembly and leaving it as-is was aimed at people that do not feel comfortable with handling firearms. Leaving a firearm on scene is a bad idea if you can't leave it with someone responsible. If you were the one that handled it last... and someone finds the firearm _you _left unsecured, guess who is responsible?


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## adamjh3 (Sep 19, 2011)

Leave it on scene? That's even more stupid than pulling it out of the holster in the first place. It should be in SOMEBODY'S possession at all times. 

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## bigbaldguy (Sep 19, 2011)

Turning it over to hospital security is an excellent option except how do you get it to the hospital if you're not allowed to carry it in the ambulance. Not sure about the OPs outfit but most of the outfits I have had contact with specifically forbid taking a weapon onto the ambulance under any circumstances. However I do agree that leaving the weapon unsecured at the scene is the worst possible way of handling this situation. If all else failed I would place the weapon in one of the exterior compartments on the truck, lock the compartment and not touch it until I had a supervisor present, and of course would thoroughly document why I couldn't leave the weapon on scene (no secure area, no responsible adult ect..) Eventually most LE departments catch on that it is in their best interest to accept  possession of these weapons. It can be a tricky line to walk, on the one hand you don't want to violate your protocols regarding a weapon on the truck and on the other you may not be able to wait around for someone to show up and take possession of the weapon. Generally it boils down to doing what it justifiable given the circumstances and best interest of the patient. You have to be able to justify your actions, but then this goes for anything you do at work.


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## mcdonl (Sep 19, 2011)

imadriver said:


> In Florida here guns / knives / pool cues are everywhere.
> 
> If we run into something like that we just call for the Police take it. Usually if the situation is such, they are already there. If the patient is critical and I just happen to see it, then I drop it a little distance in a slightly concealed area (back seat of a car, under a coffee table, so on ) and if I see it as a possible high threat in the future, I'm comfortable enough with most guns to discharge the clip and clear the chamber. If there is a gun on scene and no PD, we either withdraw if there is a threat, or call for PD and keep the patient (as inconspicuously as possible) away from the weapon. Make sure you document! And Let PD / Dispatch know about it!
> 
> ...



It is sort of funny... your whole post assumes the firearm makes the scene unsafe, that there was a law broken and that PD needs or cares to know about it.

Also, it is a magazine not a "clip" unless they happen to be carrying a WW2 era rifle.


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## Akulahawk (Sep 19, 2011)

mcdonl said:


> It is sort of funny... your whole post assumes the firearm makes the scene unsafe, that there was a law broken and that PD needs or cares to know about it.
> 
> Also, it is a magazine not a "clip" unless they happen to be carrying a WW2 era rifle.


My carrying a firearm in public breaks no laws, generally speaking, unless I attempt it in certain places. In those places were "everybody" carries a gun or has one around somewhere and it's not illegal, Law Enforcement won't bat an eye (or care) when you happen to find a firearm on someone who is otherwise not breaking any laws. They may care if _you _leave a firearm unsecured on scene though...


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## dstevens58 (Sep 19, 2011)

Having been on both sides of this issue (LEO and EMT), law enforcement usually has no problems booking a gun for "safe keeping" and I have done so.  No way would I leave a firearm on the scene.  It would always be turned over to a responsible person, who in turn would give it to law enforcement if they were late in arriving on the scene.


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## DarkStarr (Sep 19, 2011)

A firearm is only as dangerous as the hands that it's in.

That said, it won't fire unless you pull the trigger.

That said, don't pull the trigger (and never sweep anyone).


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## adamjh3 (Sep 19, 2011)

DarkStarr said:


> A firearm is only as dangerous as the hands that it's in.
> 
> That said, it won't fire unless you pull the trigger.
> 
> That said, don't pull the trigger (and never sweep anyone).



That said, if you do handle it, don't butterfinger it. Grip it firmly and keep your booger hook off the trigger

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## Jon (Sep 19, 2011)

emt.dan said:


> Yes, and I was saying that there are departments that are happy to take custody of firearms...
> 
> I do not have an LTC, and do not feel comfortable handling possibly armed firearms. I frankly don't know how to check to see if the gun is armed or to disarm it, and if my patient is incapable of unloading, i'm forced to leave the gun on scene- I won't allow it in my vehicle unless verifiably unloaded.


Dan, Come down here... we can have a range day!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`


PA's protocols cover this. EMS should have PD handle the firearm if at all possible. If it is necessary for EMS to move the firearm, EMS should carefully move the firearm avoiding putting ANYTHING inside the trigger guard, don't point it at anything/anyone important, and secure it somewhere safe if possible. Protocols say not to attempt to clear the gun.

In my trucks, it would be placed in a (preferably lockable) compartment without any small items, and be left alone.


Personally, in a month, I'll be a NRA-certified Pistol Instructor. I'm familiar with most common handguns. If I am comfortable clearing XYZ gun, I'm going to clear it for my safety.


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## Sasha (Sep 19, 2011)

Jon said:


> Dan, Come down here... we can have a range day!



Home home on the range. Where the deer and the antelope play.

Being IFT we dont run into very many guns.

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## JPINFV (Sep 19, 2011)

Jon, trap shooting > pistols or rifles. My targets actually move.  



Sasha said:


> Being IFT we dont run into very many guns.



You haven't worked with me apparently.


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## RocketMedic (Sep 19, 2011)

A weapon will not fire unless manipulated, so I just leave it in the holster. I generally try to leave it with a responsible adult or a secure area.


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## mcdonl (Sep 20, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> Jon, trap shooting > pistols or rifles. My targets actually move.
> 
> 
> 
> You haven't worked with me apparently.



IDPA can be a pretty good challenge... YOU move, not the targets


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## DrParasite (Sep 20, 2011)

I'm going to go against the grain on this one.  it's a police matter, they should be the one to handle the firearm.

what training did you receive in EMS school about handling guns?  I'm guessing the answer is 0.  so what business do you have handing a loaded firearm if you have no formal training in in (related to your present job I mean)?  Guess what job did involve firearms training?

I am completely in agreement that patient's should not bring loaded firearms into the ambulance, CCW permit or not.  If we can't carry guns on the truck, neither can they.  If they want the ambulance, tell them to secure their weapon, it is there responsibility.

If the cops won't deal with the weapon, than yes, leave it at the side of the road.  Document that the cops refused to handle the situation that is well within their training.  call a police supervisor and get his badge number too.  It's not a good idea, but it's not our responsibility if PD won't do their job.

If EMS wants to be considered an equal to PD and fire, we need to stand up for ourselves, and stop being pushed around by the other two.  Just because they refused to do their job doesn't mean we should let them get away with it and do it for them.  it isn't our responsibility to deal with the patient's firearm.  that job falls on PD, not the local gun nut, not the avid hunter and if the patient is going in an ambulance where guns aren't allowed, than ether PD takes it, or the patient gives. it to a responsible party.

either way, it's something to have preplanned ahead of time, by people in white shirts over coffee, not debated at the last minute.  and if EMS wants to be considered one of the big boys, they need to act like the big boys and stand up for what's right, not just give in to every one else.


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## JPINFV (Sep 20, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> what training did you receive in EMS school about handling guns?  I'm guessing the answer is 0.  so what business do you have handing a loaded firearm if you have no formal training in in (related to your present job I mean)?  Guess what job did involve firearms training?



I didn't receive any training in EMS school about driving an ambulance either. 

I didn't receive any real training on body mechanics in EMS school either. 

So, apparently EMS doesn't involve ambulances or moving patients from one surface to another. 



> I am completely in agreement that patient's should not bring loaded firearms into the ambulance, CCW permit or not.  If we can't carry guns on the truck, neither can they.  If they want the ambulance, tell them to secure their weapon, it is there responsibility.



So Bob, the 60 year old CCW is out picking up something from the local supermarket and has a MI. Opps, Sorry Bob, but we have to waste time waiting for PD, who may very well have an extended response time, because it's your responsibility to secure your firearm and you decided to be alone and in public when you decided to suffer a medical emergency. 



> If the cops won't deal with the weapon, than yes, leave it at the side of the road.


...and if the weapon is then stolen and used in the commission of a crime, I hope hell and brim fire rains down on the crew who decides that an inanimate object is too dangerous because they're scared with zero good reason to be.



> they need to act like the big boys and stand up for what's right, not just give in to every one else.



You mean like giving into The Brady Bunch?


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## adamjh3 (Sep 20, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> If the cops won't deal with the weapon, than yes, leave it at the side of the road.



Where Johnny gangbanger can get a hold of it and use it in the comission of a crime? Or little Timmy can find it and blow his little sister's head off playing with it?

Yeah, that's the smart, responsible thing to do. 

Its not a threat when its holstered. It doesn't go bang unless someone's handling it. 

Guns don't kill people accidently. Stupid people kill people accidently. 

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## bigdogems (Sep 20, 2011)

Its just political BS. They aren't likely to refuse. Well maybe if you work in Madison.... Useless hippies!!! In general if someone has a CHL your not going to know about it unless its a major trauma and your making them naked


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## bstone (Sep 20, 2011)

I think concealed weapons are a good thing and there should be more of them. Legal, of course.


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## Katy (Sep 20, 2011)

bstone said:


> I think concealed weapons are a good thing and there should be more of them. Legal, of course.


This. Protect yourself.


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## bstone (Sep 20, 2011)

> This. Protect yourself.



I do.


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## Katy (Sep 20, 2011)

bstone said:


> I do.


I figured with your opinion on the matter, you just might.


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## DrParasite (Sep 20, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> I didn't receive any training in EMS school about driving an ambulance either.


  I received very basic training about driving an ambulance in EMT school, with a lot more training in CEVO and EVOC.  





JPINFV said:


> I didn't receive any real training on body mechanics in EMS school either.
> 
> So, apparently EMS doesn't involve ambulances or moving patients from one surface to another.


we went over lifting devices, carrying devices, and needed to show proficiency in the using of them.  if you didn't, than your course sucked, and you should have demanded a refund.  


JPINFV said:


> So Bob, the 60 year old CCW is out picking up something from the local supermarket and has a MI. Opps, Sorry Bob, but we have to waste time waiting for PD, who may very well have an extended response time, because it's your responsibility to secure your firearm and you decided to be alone and in public when you decided to suffer a medical emergency.


that is a very good example.  lets give another one and say Bob gets shot, and shot back striking the shooter & no one knows where the shooter is.  Bob is bleeding to death, are you going to wait for PD to arrive and secure the scene?  or are you going to run in and save Bob?  What will you do in PD has an extended response?

If PD has an extended response time, do you disregard scene safety?  

or even better, lets say the MI causes Bob to get hypoxic, and he suddenly starts to be come altered and think that the paramedics are not helping him, but trying to hurt him, and in his hypoxic state he pulls his CCW on the crew.  than what?


JPINFV said:


> ...and if the weapon is then stolen and used in the commission of a crime, I hope hell and brim fire rains down on the crew who decides that an inanimate object is too dangerous because they're scared with zero good reason to be.


wouldn't have happened in PD had done their job and secured the weapon like they are supposed to.  EMS isn't trained in weapons management, that's an LEO matter.   It will still fall on the LEO for failing to do their job.  or you can wait for PD.





adamjh3 said:


> Where Johnny gangbanger can get a hold of it and use it in the comission of a crime? Or little Timmy can find it and blow his little sister's head off playing with it?
> 
> Yeah, that's the smart, responsible thing to do.


I never said it was the smart thing to do, but it's PD's failure to secure the weapon.


adamjh3 said:


> Its not a threat when its holstered. It doesn't go bang unless someone's handling it.


you are absolutely right.  although I have heard of guns firing when dropped as well.  but a gun not in the ambulance will not go off.


adamjh3 said:


> Guns don't kill people accidently. Stupid people kill people accidently.


or intentionally or due to an altered mental status due to a medical condition.

Being afraid of a firearm, and respecting the potential damage a firearm can inflict are two very different things.

Let the professionals who are trained in weapons management handle them.


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## CheifBud (Sep 20, 2011)

*Guns don't jump out and get you...*



adamjh3 said:


> Its not a threat when its holstered. It doesn't go bang unless someone's handling it.
> 
> Guns don't kill people accidently. Stupid people kill people accidently.




+1 ^^

If you are responsible for whether or not a patient lives or dies you need to have the common sense to not leave a weapon where it can be obtained by someone else.  This is where I have to assume I need (or obviously my superior at that time) needs to control the weapon until it can be turned over to PD.

Yes, guns can be dangerous but leaving them laying around or even unattended is even more dangerous.  I don't think it would take a lot of training statewide to show a paramedic how to handle a firearm, discharge a magazine, and clear the chamber or if the weapon is in a holster to remove the entire holster and place it in a designated safe area on the rig. (the safe perhaps)  One Sat. afternoon call in a couple local PD's to train and it wouldn't take more than an hour or two.  GUNS ARE NOT HOT LAVA OR DEMONS THAT WILL JUMP OUT AT YOU.  

I also wonder why if John Q can very easily obtain and carry a weapon anywhere then why can't a trained PROFESSIONAL emergency health personnel who's job can  call for almost anything should be able to in the least handle, contain, or transport until it can be turned over to PD or patient.
Furthermore if I respond to John Q who has a 14 y.o. son at home is it safer to leave this firearm in the home or within reach of other family members or residents who have no firearm training or god forbid endangering people from leaving a firearm sitting on Johns Coffee table.  

Basically as soon as the firearm leaves the patient and if it does not fall directly into a police officers hands, SOMEONE is going to have to look after it and if my Chief does not object I WILL take control of the weapon as I KNOW I can trust myself as does my crew versus leaving it laying around or in the patients house where his son will be getting home from school or where someone who is NOT as competent in gun safety.... hell, as competent as I would hope a paramedic would be, could handle the weapon.


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## bigbaldguy (Sep 20, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> lets give another one and say Bob gets shot, and shot back striking the shooter & no one knows where the shooter is.  Bob is bleeding to death, are you going to wait for PD to arrive and secure the scene?  or are you going to run in and save Bob?  What will you do in PD has an extended response?
> 
> If PD has an extended response time, do you disregard scene safety?



So your saying that leaving a gun at the scene in a MI scenario is no different then leaving the gun at the scene in a active shooter scenario? Whaaa?


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## Tigger (Sep 20, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> that is a very good example. lets give another one and say Bob gets shot, and shot back striking the shooter & no one knows where the shooter is. Bob is bleeding to death, are you going to wait for PD to arrive and secure the scene? or are you going to run in and save Bob? What will you do in PD has an extended response?
> 
> If PD has an extended response time, do you disregard scene safety?
> 
> or even better, lets say the MI causes Bob to get hypoxic, and he suddenly starts to be come altered and think that the paramedics are not helping him, but trying to hurt him, and in his hypoxic state he pulls his CCW on the crew.  than what?



What if we just what ifed the situation to death? Problem solved.



> wouldn't have happened in PD had done their job and secured the weapon like they are supposed to.  EMS isn't trained in weapons management, that's an LEO matter.   It will still fall on the LEO for failing to do their job.  or you can wait for PD.I never said it was the smart thing to do, but it's PD's failure to secure the weapon.
> you are absolutely right.  although I have heard of guns firing when dropped as well.  but a gun not in the ambulance will not go off.



I fail to see how the police would be at fault for securing a weapon that they did not know existed. Sorry but if someone is having an MI in a supermarket I am not waiting for the police if they have a delayed response time. "Sir I know you want to go to the hospital right now but we need to wait 25 minutes for the police to take possession of your weapon." _That's_ how you get a patient to point his CCW at you. Leaving it in a public place and telling the police to come get it is a terrible idea too. How are the police supposed to control the weapon if they're not on scene. 

I agree that this conversation needs to happen before the call does, how about working together with the police and holding an inservice on gun safety?


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## adamjh3 (Sep 20, 2011)

Is it PD's failure when they're not on scene? What will a jury think?

"Yes,your honor, I stand by my decision to leave a legally owned firearm in the middle of a busy grocery store. I felt it was safer than removing the holster from the patient and placing the firearm in a secure location on my ambulance. "

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## JPINFV (Sep 20, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> I received very basic training about driving an ambulance in EMT school, with a lot more training in CEVO and EVOC.  we went over lifting devices, carrying devices, and needed to show proficiency in the using of them.  if you didn't, than your course sucked, and you should have demanded a refund.


Since you've limited the conversation to just the initial training, was CEVO and EVOC done in EMT class? How many hours did you log in an ambulance during EMT class?

Going over lifting and carrying devices and going over body mechanics are not the same thing. Sheet transfers? Wheel chair to gurney transfers? Or just, "Here's how you use a backboard"?



> that is a very good example.  lets give another one and say Bob gets shot, and shot back striking the shooter & no one knows where the shooter is.  Bob is bleeding to death, are you going to wait for PD to arrive and secure the scene?  or are you going to run in and save Bob?  What will you do in PD has an extended response?


Let's see. One involves a crime and discharge of weapons, and the other doesn't. Are you saying that you would enter the scene if Bob didn't have a gun despite no police and that you don't know where the shooter is? 




> If PD has an extended response time, do you disregard scene safety?


I don't view the lawful carrying of a firearm as a scene safety issue in the sense of "OMG, the gun might leap out of the holster and pull it's own trigger" type of thinking. The mere presence of a fire arm is not a scene safety issue. 

Going along this line of thinking, if there was a call at a shotgun range, would you require the entire range to be shut down just because you're on scene, despite the fact that the other stations besides the one you're at poses no risk to you? 



> or even better, lets say the MI causes Bob to get hypoxic, and he suddenly starts to be come altered and think that the paramedics are not helping him, but trying to hurt him, and in his hypoxic state he pulls his CCW on the crew.  than what?



Irrelevant, as you would already be treating the patient by the time you found their firearm, and there are ways to safely secure a holstered firearm that doesn't require backing off for 5 minutes while the police respond. 




> wouldn't have happened in PD had done their job and secured the weapon like they are supposed to.  EMS isn't trained in weapons management, that's an LEO matter.   It will still fall on the LEO for failing to do their job.  or you can wait for PD.I never said it was the smart thing to do, but it's PD's failure to secure the weapon.


Have fun making that argument because it's not going to fly... well... anyplace. It's almost like saying, "Well, I'm not trained to be a baby sitter, and we don't have enough places in the ambulance for all of the kids, so we're just going to leave the kids home alone because the police won't show up."


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## DrParasite (Sep 20, 2011)

bigbaldguy said:


> So your saying that leaving a gun at the scene in a MI scenario is no different then leaving the gun at the scene in a active shooter scenario? Whaaa?


no, I'm saying a gun is a gun, and it's PD's responsibly to handle firearms.


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## DrParasite (Sep 20, 2011)

CheifBud said:


> if my Chief does not object


wonder what your chief would say.  and ask him why he would object.


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## JPINFV (Sep 20, 2011)

...and thanks to this thread, I think I'll go trap shooting tomorrow.


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## ffemt8978 (Sep 20, 2011)

Tigger said:


> I agree that this conversation needs to happen before the call does, how about working together with the police and holding an inservice on gun safety?


Best comment of this thread, so far.


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## ffemt8978 (Sep 20, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> ...and thanks to this thread, I think I'll go trap shooting tomorrow.



Waiting for my Grendel upper to arrive before I go and test that and my new G20.


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## CheifBud (Sep 20, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> no, I'm saying a gun is a gun, and it's PD's responsibly to handle firearms.



 "SIR I need you to stop your heart attack since I am in charge of saving your life, In charge of administration of medications that with a slight overdose could kill you, and the State/NREMT owns my soul and every piece of information about me, but I can't handle the same firearm you walk around the mall with every day for just a moment in order to save your life"

That's the bottom line.... not, "oh well its not my job to handle that".

Kind of Ironic.... according to DrParasite's way of thinking.  The same people that buy a gun for protection now get to bleed out internally from X ailment since we have to wait for PD to take the super scary uncontrollable force of evil in which no one can possibly handle with killing someone unless they have a badge on A.K.A a firearm.


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## ffemt8978 (Sep 21, 2011)

Tone down the rhetoric...


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## DrParasite (Sep 21, 2011)

Tigger said:


> I fail to see how the police would be at fault for securing a weapon that they did not know existed.


THAT'S WHY YOU CALL THEM TO SECURE THE WEAPON!!!!! Of course they won't be at fault, but if you call them to secure the weapon, and they don't show up, than that's on them.





Tigger said:


> Sorry but if someone is having an MI in a supermarket I am not waiting for the police if they have a delayed response time. "Sir I know you want to go to the hospital right now but we need to wait 25 minutes for the police to take possession of your weapon." _That's_ how you get a patient to point his CCW at you.


out of curiosity, with him pointing his CCW at you, would you consider that a reason to have PD?  but they are 25 minutes away, and you wanted to let the patient keep his weapon.  and now it's aimed at you.  good call 


Tigger said:


> Leaving it in a public place and telling the police to come get it is a terrible idea too. How are the police supposed to control the weapon if they're not on scene.


you could always request PD and wait for them, treating the patient while you wait.





Tigger said:


> I agree that this conversation needs to happen before the call does, how about working together with the police and holding an inservice on gun safety?


sure, sounds like a great idea.  also make sure you have a written policy from your agency that says you are to transport patient's with CCWs to the hospital, and if PD is not on scene, you are to take the firearm with you to the hospital.  this way you are covered by your agency, PD knows what you are doing, and the gun isn't left out in the open.  

btw, I'd like to see a copy of that policy once it gets written.


JPINFV said:


> Since you've limited the conversation to just the initial training, was CEVO and EVOC done in EMT class? How many hours did you log in an ambulance during EMT class?


we had 8 hours on ambulance operations.  also I have documented EMS training in CEVO and EVOC.  how much documented weapons training to you have, and how much do your fellow EMTs have?  


JPINFV said:


> Going over lifting and carrying devices and going over body mechanics are not the same thing. Sheet transfers? Wheel chair to gurney transfers? Or just, "Here's how you use a backboard"?


umm, we went over how to use a backboard.  not much training on wheelchair to gurney transfers, and I think I have done maybe two such transfers in 10 years of doing EMS, and one of those times I hurt my back and was out of work for 2 weeks.  and sheet transfers were all OJT.  still didn't cover firearms.


JPINFV said:


> Let's see. One involves a crime and discharge of weapons, and the other doesn't. Are you saying that you would enter the scene if Bob didn't have a gun despite no police and that you don't know where the shooter is?


 I'd be much more hesitant to enter the shooting scene before it has been secured.  Not saying that I wouldn't, but I would be hesitant. 





JPINFV said:


> I don't view the lawful carrying of a firearm as a scene safety issue in the sense of "OMG, the gun might leap out of the holster and pull it's own trigger" type of thinking. The mere presence of a fire arm is not a scene safety issue.


sure and a gun in the hand of a violent EDP doesn't shoot people until he starts pulling the trigger.  but the gun in and of itself doesn't prevent a scene safety issue (and yes, i'm agreeing with you on this one).


JPINFV said:


> Going along this line of thinking, if there was a call at a shotgun range, would you require the entire range to be shut down just because you're on scene, despite the fact that the other stations besides the one you're at poses no risk to you?


that's absurd, not sure where you are coming up with that.


JPINFV said:


> Irrelevant, as you would already be treating the patient by the time you found their firearm, and there are ways to safely secure a holstered firearm that doesn't require backing off for 5 minutes while the police respond.


you know they have a firearm, some advocate letting the patient keep it.  


JPINFV said:


> Have fun making that argument because it's not going to fly... well... anyplace. It's almost like saying, "Well, I'm not trained to be a baby sitter, and we don't have enough places in the ambulance for all of the kids, so we're just going to leave the kids home alone because the police won't show up."


apples and pears.  but if mom has 8 kids, are you going to take all the kids with you in the ambulance?  your argument is flawed. it's still apples and pears.





JPINFV said:


> ...and thanks to this thread, I think I'll go trap shooting tomorrow.


if the weather is nice, so will I


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## CheifBud (Sep 21, 2011)

ok it was a little bit but done so to make a point, never against someone personally. sorry.

I just find it so hypocritical that EMS personnel constantly complain about not being treated as a professional service but now have to have PD hold our hand on what will be more and more calls.  The bottom line is we want to be professionals and viewed as such then I think its only logical that if our patients are now walking around with loaded weapons we need to start being "trained" on how to handle these weapons.  If I was loaded into an ambulance and the same guy that is putting needles in my arm and pumping me full of medication said he didn't know how to handle a simple hand-gun... "you can just drop me off at the next stop please, I pump gas for a living and you can't hold on to a weapon safely?"

One maybe two Saturday after noon get together with local PD go  over handling, removing and clearing, and storing the weapon.  Have PD collaborate to locate a safe storage place for the weapon till it can be turned over.  Have PD designate certain people to handle and take responsibility of the weapon within your crew.  TAKE SOME INITIATIVE.

As far as I see it we have two options.  Call PD on almost every call since in some states like AZ where you don't even need a permit to carry a concealed weapon.  Or we can take the initiative, step up to the plate, and find a way to safely and proffesionaly handle CCW situations while ensuring *NO * hindrance in patient care.    

It was sarcasm in my last post but I still stand buy it... guns are not evil forces that will jump out and get you when you're not looking... they are in fact carried by hundreds upon thousands of individuals, many without permits or more gun training than you or I and if we plan on working in a state that allows CCW we need to do something about it... not have PD hold our hand every time.

Bottom line... If the public is walking around with weapons the people charged with providing emergency healthcare should be able to handle it as well...If the state thinks anyone can carry a weapon then, well, I think EMS personnel definitely falls into that category.


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## JPINFV (Sep 21, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> we had 8 hours on ambulance operations.  also I have documented EMS training in CEVO and EVOC.  how much documented weapons training to you have, and how much do your fellow EMTs have?



So you're no longer limiting it to initial training.

I'm a fire arms owner who has been shooting pistols, rifles, and shotguns since before I was a teenager. I have full faith in my ability to handle any standard firearm in a safe manner. Saying that you need documented hours to safely handle a firearm is like saying you need documented hours to safely handle a kitchen knife. It's really not that hard once you get past the "OMG, a GUN" stage. 





> umm, we went over how to use a backboard.  not much training on wheelchair to gurney transfers, and I think I have done maybe two such transfers in 10 years of doing EMS, and one of those times I hurt my back and was out of work for 2 weeks.  and sheet transfers were all OJT.  still didn't cover firearms.


Why are you doing sheet transfers and gurney to wheelchair transfers if you didn't cover it in EMT class? (again, you limited to specifically initial training. Again, would you like to recant that limitation?). Can you not use training and experience outside of EMT class or OTJ training in order to more proficiently do your job, or do you just ignore everything outside of what was specifically taught? 




> I'd be much more hesitant to enter the shooting scene before it has been secured.  Not saying that I wouldn't, but I would be hesitant. sure and a gun in the hand of a violent EDP doesn't shoot people until he starts pulling the trigger.  but the gun in and of itself doesn't prevent a scene safety issue (and yes, i'm agreeing with you on this one).


So the entire issue about the CCW is a red herring since it was ultimately irrelevant when compared to the other dude with a gun who was shooting people. 

So the guy who was shot and was defending himself is now an emotionally disturbed individual? 

Furthermore, what about the much more likely situation where the concealed weapon stays concealed until you start treating?




> that's absurd, not sure where you are coming up with that.


So you're concerned about one man with a concealed weapon, but not an entire group of people with non-concealed weapons who are actively loading and firing said weapons in relative proximity? 



> you know they have a firearm, some advocate letting the patient keep it.


Depending on the situation, that's a very reasonable course of action. Not everyone with a firearm is some crazed member of society just itching for the chance to put a bullet in someone. In fact, considering some recent incidents, I'm more concerned about the stability of the average police officer than the average CCW holder. 




> apples and pears.  but if mom has 8 kids, are you going to take all the kids with you in the ambulance?  your argument is flawed.


If I don't have enough seats to safely secure 8 kids, and no one else is willing to respond, what are the options? Using your argument, I should leave the kids alone, which in the short term is probably safer than leaving a loaded weapon on the curb of a public street.


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## CheifBud (Sep 21, 2011)

I think we're all missing the point. It is ridiculously simple...  Why do you need to call PD to do something the state already said pretty much anyone can do?!?!?!?  And if you are employed in EMS you will most likely qualify for a permit... right there what makes you soooo different and incapable compared to John Q?

Wisconsin says Ben Dover can carry a CCW.  We don't know if this persons an upstanding person in his community or he just hasn't gotten caught dealing drugs yet.  Either way this guy can carry, hold, play with, really whatever the hell he pleases short of waving it around at people.  So why can't an EMS *PROFESSIONAL* handle it?

Why are we selling ourselves short by acting like we are not smart enough to handle a weapon, when, for the 5th time, Ben D. is no different than YOU or your crew. So at what point does it turn from a persons concealed weapon to a weapon that is completely different from anything you can handle? Again what makes Ben such an expert on firearms that you can't possibly touch it?

Also If I were to get a CCW permit as an EMS personnel in WI am I then able to take control of the firearm... because at that point there is absolutely no difference between Ben D. and I. Why call PD to have them do something that MOST people in Wisconsin can legally do?

Wisconsin says any citizen of this state in good standing can carry a weapon.  I live in Wisconsin and am in "good standing" ... therefore I should be able to handle a weapon for a short time.


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## JPINFV (Sep 21, 2011)

Oh, and here's training for handling a firearm.

Rule 1: It's loaded, always.

Rule 2: Don't point the gun at something you don't want to shoot. 

Rule 3: Keep the booger picker off of the bang stick.

You've just completed the 3 steps to safe handling of a firearm.


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## CheifBud (Sep 21, 2011)

Barring unusual circumstances, felons, and other techincalities....

Any idiot can now go out, buy a gun, and carry it around....

This is where YOU ALL decide.     

Is EMS LESS competent than the general public or MORE competent?

By saying "I can't touch that weapon, I'm scared" you are placing EMS in the LESS competent category.

It's not about scenarios and what-ifs and making a worse scenario to prove your point... This is really happening, people WILL have guns, and we need to handle it like professionals.

Why are we acting like the general public is more qualified to handle firearms then us...?


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## CheifBud (Sep 21, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> Oh, and here's training for handling a firearm.
> 
> Rule 1: It's loaded, always.
> 
> ...




WHOA WHOA now... this is waaaaay to much for me to understand.  Sure administering medications, starting IV's, and 12-leads are simple but  " don't point the gun at something you don't want to shoot"  just blows my mind.  Ill probably have to get a book on this or something....

Not being facetious to you, being facetious WITH you


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## ffemt8978 (Sep 21, 2011)

Last chance to tone down the rhetoric...


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## CheifBud (Sep 21, 2011)

Didn't know anyone was offended I'm sorry.

Wasn't directed at anyone...
Did not specify anyone....
Even said in the post I'm not being sarcastic towards the person...
Essentially used a little sarcasm to illustrate someones point I agree with...

Wasn't really going at anyone but sorry again if someone is offended


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## ffemt8978 (Sep 21, 2011)

I understand that, but that type of sarcasm and it's inevitable replies is what leads to the thread getting locked and people being given a forum vacation.


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## adamjh3 (Sep 21, 2011)

The core of the issue is there is NO one-size-fits-all answer (Y'know, like in medicine, that field we all work in?).

Sure if PD is right there, or my patient is stable and the wait won't be too long, let them handle it. I'm almost certain they'll have better SOPs for dealing with storing firearms than an ambulance crew. 

If they're not, or your patient really needs high flow diesel, I really don't see an issue at all. If they're in a state where they need rapid transport to definitive care, they're in no condition to use their weapon. If they're not, and they're conscious and able, have them remove the holstered weapon from their person so you can store it for hospital security/your sup/LE/whoever to handle it.  

Realistically, this is going to be a very low priority call for PD, I think "Hey, my husband is bashing my face in and I need some po-lease please" is a little more important than "Hey, my patient has a gun... well no, he's nobody's been shot... nope, he's not pointing it at anyone... no, he's actually not even conscious... I just don't want it in my ambulance... 45 minutes? Okay, I'll just leave it on the curb at 5th and Elm, pick it up when you get a chance." 

Jump on the issue before the situation occurs and flesh out an SOP (Other than leaving it on the street). If you're still not sure what to do when the situation arises call your Sup. After that, use some common sense - and that means don't leave it on the curb - If you HAVE to handle the weapon unholstered, grip it firmly, don't point it at anyone, and keep your booger-hook off the trigger.


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## DrParasite (Sep 21, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> I'm a fire arms owner who has been shooting pistols, rifles, and shotguns since before I was a teenager. I have full faith in my ability to handle any standard firearm in a safe manner. Saying that you need documented hours to safely handle a firearm is like saying you need documented hours to safely handle a kitchen knife. It's really not that hard once you get past the "OMG, a GUN" stage.


ok, I'm going to try to boil this down to the simplest way possible.  

You feel comfortable with firearms.  do you feel comfortable with me handling a firearm?  do you feel comfortable with an 18 year old who just stepped on the ambulance?  how about the 21 year old who can't stop dropping the damn clipboard?  going to be comfortable with him handling the firearm?  what about the guy who has never touched a gun in his life?

It has nothing to do with an individual's training and experience... if you are going to make a policy, an SOP, or a protocol, it needs to be brought down to the lowest level; if everyone is trained in firearm safety, than it becomes a moot point.  but if everyone is not trained equally, well, that is where you have a problem. 


JPINFV said:


> Why are you doing sheet transfers and gurney to wheelchair transfers if you didn't cover it in EMT class? (again, you limited to specifically initial training. Again, would you like to recant that limitation?). Can you not use training and experience outside of EMT class or OTJ training in order to more proficiently do your job, or do you just ignore everything outside of what was specifically taught?


everyone at my service is trained in sheet transfers.  OTJ is accepted, provided EVERYONE has the training.  the only reason I mentioned EMT class was because in theory everyone receives the same training.  everyone at my service has CEVO and EVOC training.  it's all documented.  not everyone has firearms training.


JPINFV said:


> So the entire issue about the CCW is a red herring since it was ultimately irrelevant when compared to the other dude with a gun who was shooting people.


blah blah blah





JPINFV said:


> So the guy who was shot and was defending himself is now an emotionally disturbed individual?


I never said that.  I used the EDP as a separate example.


JPINFV said:


> So you're concerned about one man with a concealed weapon, but not an entire group of people with non-concealed weapons who are actively loading and firing said weapons in relative proximity?


still absurd.  I won't even dignify that absurdity with a response.





JPINFV said:


> Depending on the situation, that's a very reasonable course of action. Not everyone with a firearm is some crazed member of society just itching for the chance to put a bullet in someone. In fact, considering some recent incidents, I'm more concerned about the stability of the average police officer than the average CCW holder.


wow, just wow.  maybe it's just me and my area, but I would trust a member of law enforcement more than I would a civilian with a CCW.  call it their training, requirements to stay proficient, education on law enforcement compared to a guy who carry a gun for personal reason.  but hey, that's just me. 


JPINFV said:


> If I don't have enough seats to safely secure 8 kids, and no one else is willing to respond, what are the options? Using your argument, I should leave the kids alone, which in the short term is probably safer than leaving a loaded weapon on the curb of a public street.


you didn't answer what YOU would do.



CheifBud said:


> I think we're all missing the point. It is ridiculously simple...  Why do you need to call PD to do something the state already said pretty much anyone can do?!?!?!?  And if you are employed in EMS you will most likely qualify for a permit... right there what makes you soooo different and incapable compared to John Q?
> 
> Wisconsin says Ben Dover can carry a CCW.  We don't know if this persons an upstanding person in his community or he just hasn't gotten caught dealing drugs yet.  Either way this guy can carry, hold, play with, really whatever the hell he pleases short of waving it around at people.  So why can't an EMS *PROFESSIONAL* handle it?
> 
> Why are we selling ourselves short by acting like we are not smart enough to handle a weapon, when, for the 5th time, Ben D. is no different than YOU or your crew. So at what point does it turn from a persons concealed weapon to a weapon that is completely different from anything you can handle? Again what makes Ben such an expert on firearms that you can't possibly touch it?


honest question: aside from filling out a form, do you need any training or education to get a CCW?  any training, any safety courses, or is it just "fill out this form, give us the $25 filing fee, and here is your permit, go get your gun"?

and does your state have any rule about having loaded firearms in an ambulance?  I know mine does.





adamjh3 said:


> Realistically, this is going to be a very low priority call for PD, I think "Hey, my husband is bashing my face in and I need some po-lease please" is a little more important than "Hey, my patient has a gun... well no, he's nobody's been shot... nope, he's not pointing it at anyone... no, he's actually not even conscious... I just don't want it in my ambulance... 45 minutes? Okay, I'll just leave it on the curb at 5th and Elm, pick it up when you get a chance."


you think telling them you are leaving it on the curb for them to pick up will move it on the priority list?  

and contrary to the belief of some, the overwhelming MAJORITY of calls for PD are of the report nature; that means they aren't imminent threats to life or property.


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## rmabrey (Sep 21, 2011)

My training driving an ambulance lasted about 20 minutes. My training with handguns alone this year is over twice the amount that most police officers do in a year, and im not just talking about going to the range and shooting stationary targets. .


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## bigdogems (Sep 21, 2011)

I love gun debates. Once again. If a person has a CHL you arent going to find it unless its a trauma call and your making them naked! All these what if things. Ok a person has a head injury, or is hypoxic. Your saying that they dont know whats going on or what they're doing. But the one thing that they will be in their right mind to do is draw a gun on someone helping them? Almost every state has carry laws now. When was the last time you read or seen anything about an EMS crew being shot by someone who had a CHL???? lets take a different example.... How many people have a knife in their pocket at any given time??? Are EMS crews constantly getting stabbed or cut by hypoxic pts???? Nope


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## bigdogems (Sep 21, 2011)

Oh and if your going into a shooting scene without police what ever happens to you at that point is your fault


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## mcdonl (Sep 21, 2011)

Fear can cloud our vision and perspective. I am afraid of hieghts, so when it comes to dealing with ladders and roof work I need to really dig deep down inside myself and apply some knows such as following safe procedures will decrease my chance of injury, and that I will not just "fall" if I am safe and follow the rules.

There are many more people who are afraid of guns, and they need to dig down deep and come to the same realities.


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## imadriver (Sep 21, 2011)

mcdonl said:


> It is sort of funny... your whole post assumes the firearm makes the scene unsafe, that there was a law broken and that PD needs or cares to know about it.
> 
> Also, it is a magazine not a "clip" unless they happen to be carrying a WW2 era rifle.



I consider any firearm on scene to be dangerous. I don't know who these people are when I first walk up and come into their home. Any weapon on scene should be treated as a danger. I agree most people that are going to have a firearm directly on them are going to be great people and a completely legal form. However, expect the worse, and hope for the best.

And sorry about my post. I should definitely clarify. We Never leave a gun on scene unsecured. We remove it from the proximity of the patient, and let PD/HP handle it beyond that. Then Document that we do so.

And sorry about the "chip" thing. That's my southern comin' out.


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## mcdonl (Sep 21, 2011)

imadriver said:


> And sorry about the "clip" thing. That's my southern comin' out.




Y'alls forgiven


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## JPINFV (Sep 21, 2011)

imadriver said:


> I consider any firearm on scene to be dangerous.



Define "on scene." My parents store their guns in a locked display case in their bed room. I'd hate to think that the ability for them to get emergency medical care is going to be compromised because of guns in a locked case.


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## imadriver (Sep 21, 2011)

Na, Any easily accessed firearm. I'm talking about, with use of common sense, weapons that can become a threat by an unruly person. Say, one sitting on the counter, on the patient, so on. If it's on the wall or in a safe I'm fine with it. And it's not that if someone has one on their hip I run out the door calling for help over the radio. I simply mean I approach it in a quick manner to improve the safety of me and the crew. As stated before, you don't know the people you treat 99% of the time. You have no idea what they are capable of. If I had one of my guns on my hip, and 911 was called, I would completely understand the hesitation of an EMS crew to approach me.

All I'm saying is that I would get it away, and get it secured. Of course you need to do it in a safe, non threatening calm manner, as to not make the situation worse.

Use common sense to judge if it's a possible threat or not.


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## CAOX3 (Sep 21, 2011)

BYNFD09 said:


> I am from Wisconsin and we are soon to be getting concealed firearms permits.  Some LE agencies have indicated they will NOT take possession of concealed firearms from patients unless an arrest is following.  How do EMS in states that have concealed carry handle weapons found on patients?
> Any help will be greatly appreciated.



I the cops are there they can handle it, if not we can secure it with security at the hospital.  Im not a fan of guns but I handle it like I would any other potential threat.

In my experience they are not usually just lying on the ground or tucked in someones pants, there usually secured in the holster or a pocket book and the patient is usually very upfront about it, it s not really an issue.


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## HotelCo (Sep 21, 2011)

imadriver said:


> I simply mean I approach it in a quick manner to improve the safety of me and the crew.
> 
> All I'm saying is that I would get it away, and get it secured. Of course you need to do it in a safe, non threatening calm manner, as to not make the situation worse.



The only people who are handling my firearm are myself, my family, or a LEO. I would never allow an ems provider to handle it.


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## EMS Patient Care Advocate (Sep 21, 2011)

My .02
Gun control is sight picture, front sight focus, breathing, and trigger squeeze.
We went over how to handle a PATIENT with a firearm, knife, weapon- this includes police officers, they get hurt too- In ALL my EMT levels. I argue no one who is injured should be allowed to have posession of a firearm-including PD officers that are injured. A confused patient with a gun is never a good idea.
I have worked as LE, I currently have my CCW in several states, and responsibly carry a firearm everyday. It is my hope as a gun toting civilian that you wont run away from me just because I informed you there is a firearm present- I only can hope I am awake to work with you.
When I was In uniform as LE, and needed to transport a patient for rescue as a licensed paramedic, I secured my firearm in the lockable drug box on the ambulance. It was at the request of the rescue and police cheif. The argument of me having LE uniform, badge, and being on duty without my firearm is another concern all together.
If you dont know how to safely touch or secure a firearm- seek out the training. I didnt learn self defense and patient retraint without additional training. I didnt get firearm training without seeking additional education. 
I recommend the next department meeting if not sooner this should be brought up, and a handling policy should be discussed. And if you do not know how to safely secure a firearm away from a patient you should find some training as there a lots more weapons then just firearms. Infact hand to hand combat generally scares me more.


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## imadriver (Sep 21, 2011)

The main point is, if you are like me, you don't like the idea of someone with a loaded gun in the back of the ambulance with your partner.

One way or another, you need to have the patient disarm, in a calm respectful manner. Make sure the fire arm is secure, whether it's on your unit somewhere secure, in PD's hands, left in their house, or whatever the situation warrants. Use common sense to assess the threat. If there is a threat, let your dispatch know. Whatever is done, make sure you document it. And most importantly, make sure you, your partner, other responders, the patient, and bystanders are all safe and all leave alive.


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## ffemt8978 (Sep 21, 2011)

imadriver said:


> the main point is, if you are like me, you don't like the idea of someone with a loaded gun in the back of the ambulance with your partner.
> 
> One way or another, you need to have the patient disarm, in a calm respectful manner. Make sure the fire arm is secure, whether it's on your unit somewhere secure, in pd's hands, left in their house, or whatever the situation warrants. Use common sense to assess the situation. If there is a threat, let your dispatch know. Whatever is done, make sure you document it. And most importantly, make sure you, your partner, other responders, the patient, and bystanders are all safe and all leave alive.


ftfy


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## Akulahawk (Sep 21, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> ok, I'm going to try to boil this down to the simplest way possible.
> 
> You feel comfortable with firearms.  do you feel comfortable with me handling a firearm?  do you feel comfortable with an 18 year old who just stepped on the ambulance?  how about the 21 year old who can't stop dropping the damn clipboard?  going to be comfortable with him handling the firearm?  what about the guy who has never touched a gun in his life?
> 
> ...


You might be surprised at how little firearms training the average LEO gets. Most are trained in pistol and shotgun use, during day and low-light conditions for all of about 40 hours. TOTAL. They may have to do requalification shoots once or twice a year. That can take all of maybe 1/2 to 1 hour each - from walking in to walking out. I've taken a basic LE firearms course - 24 hours. I've taken 2 different firearms courses (relatively recently) for another 24 hours. I've done firearms courses in college (yes, one of my colleges offered a LE focused firearms course or three) for about 300 classroom and range hours total. I go shoot a few times per year... which is about 3x more often than most LEO go for skill development. 

For CCW training? Yes. It's required in CA. I also got a state and national background check that's run at the same level as a PD Firearms background check. That's REQUIRED. 


imadriver said:


> *I consider any firearm on scene to be dangerous.* I don't know who these people are when I first walk up and come into their home. *Any weapon on scene should be treated as a danger. *I agree most people that are going to have a firearm directly on them are going to be great people and a completely legal form. However, expect the worse, and hope for the best.
> 
> And sorry about my post. I should definitely clarify. We Never leave a gun on scene unsecured. We remove it from the proximity of the patient, and let PD/HP handle it beyond that. Then Document that we do so.
> 
> And sorry about the "chip" thing. That's my southern comin' out.


A firearm in and of itself isn't dangerous. People are dangerous. Almost anything I have within arm's reach can be made into a deadly or dangerous weapon. Heck, if you're not paying attention, I can reach for your ball-point pen and kill you with it... and if I can do it, so can an "EDP"... think about that one for a minute. 

And if PD is NOT on scene, leaving it someplace unattended is worse than taking it with you, secured in a cabinet because once you take possession of it, you OWN the following events because you're the proximate cause... 


HotelCo said:


> *The only people who are handling my firearm are myself, my family, or a LEO.* I would never allow an ems provider to handle it.


If I'm conscious, I'm right there with you. It's not that I don't trust _me_... it's that I don't trust _you_. Ask me to secure the firearm and_ I'll_ do it or I'll give you explicit, step-by-step instructions how to remove that firearm and holster as a unit. It's safer that way. I would rather keep it on my person as that way it's not out of my control. 

And for those of you that advocate leaving a firearm unattended on scene, you have no control over that firearm once you leave, and you would be civilly and criminally liable because all the elements of negligence can be found against you for doing so, should there be any injury or death caused by someone that finds that firearm and uses it.

Duty of care: you found it, now you must dispo it to a responsible party
Breach of care: you left it on scene, you broke that duty.
Direct Cause: your action of leaving a firearm on scene means it's available for anyone to use, who then causes...
Harm - that unattended firearm gets used and harm comes to someone that otherwise wouldn't have. 

Now that four points have been addressed: get out your checkbook... because you're going to be writing many zeroes to make the harmed person, "whole". 

Oh, by that same act, pray that you're not found criminally negligent...

After all, while having PD on scene is a good thing for your safety/security, there might just be times that you don't discover the firearm until well into transport. Then what, pull over and wait? Your pulmonary edema patient who happens to be armed might come to additional harm should you choose that course of action. Think about that...


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## mycrofft (Sep 22, 2011)

*5=4*

blah blah blah.-_-


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## Akulahawk (Sep 22, 2011)

mycrofft said:


> blah blah blah.-_-


And I'll break it down so a crusty, rusty, crotchety old EMT-A and RN can understand it.  (The rest of us, especially _me_ can only hope to become as wise...)

Leaving an unattended gun on scene is highly likely to result in you being found criminally or civilly negligent. That means loss of your license, may zeroes written against your personal wealth, and possibly spending quality time with Bubba or Junior in a place called Prison for a few years.


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## mycrofft (Sep 22, 2011)

*You know Bubba and Junior too? And Peewee, Sarge, Mousy...*

Got it. Akula's back on track. But it is still "five is four" because these threads always degenerate into guys bragging and boasting and acting like gun virgins (and I hope that they can remain virginal in that department for the rest of their lives).


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## Akulahawk (Sep 22, 2011)

mycrofft said:


> Got it. Akula's back on track. But it is still "five is four" because these threads always degenerate into guys bragging and boasting and acting like gun virgins (and I hope that they can remain virginal in that department for the rest of their lives).


Oh good... we're not talking about those _other _virgins... :rofl:







now back to our regularly scheduled program. h34r:


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## Akulahawk (Sep 22, 2011)

In a big way, I echo mycrofft's sentiment though. I own and carry firearms quite often, and where prudent to do so. I hope that I remain a firearms virgin in that I hope I never have to clear leather in response to an actual threat. That means something has gone horribly wrong and someone is about to get badly hurt (and it could also be ME!!)...


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## Jon (Sep 27, 2011)

ffemt8978 said:


> Waiting for my Grendel upper to arrive before I go and test that and my new G20.



Grendel? My brother is looking at 300 AAC. For his planned NFA Registered Receiver.


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## bstone (Sep 27, 2011)

I'm a Ruger fan, myself.


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## systemet (Sep 27, 2011)

Akulahawk said:


> A firearm in and of itself isn't dangerous. People are dangerous. Almost anything I have within arm's reach can be made into a deadly or dangerous weapon. Heck, if you're not paying attention, I can reach for your ball-point pen and kill you with it... and if I can do it, so can an "EDP"... think about that one for a minute.



The rest of this post is really well argued.  But it's clear that a person armed with a firearm is more dangerous than a person armed with a ballpoint pen.  Just because both could conceivably be used to inflict lethal injury doesn't mean that it's as easy to do so with both weapons, or over the same range.


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## adamjh3 (Sep 27, 2011)

systemet said:


> The rest of this post is really well argued.  But it's clear that a person armed with a firearm is more dangerous than a person armed with a ballpoint pen.  Just because both could conceivably be used to inflict lethal injury doesn't mean that it's as easy to do so with both weapons, or over the same range.



So a person with a legally owned firearm who prays every day that he doesn't have to use it I more dangerous than a man attacking you with a ballpoint pen? Come on

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Akulahawk (Sep 27, 2011)

adamjh3 said:


> So a person with a legally owned firearm who prays every day that he doesn't have to use it I more dangerous than a man attacking you with a ballpoint pen? Come on
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


And that's my point. The _person _is dangerous, not the implement they use to attempt to kill you with.


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## imadriver (Sep 27, 2011)

Alright, that solves it. No more ballpoint pens for my patients. They must sign with a bloody finger print.


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## Akulahawk (Sep 27, 2011)

imadriver said:


> Alright, that solves it. No more ballpoint pens for my patients. They must sign with a bloody finger print.



That's either sarcasm or it's worthy of:


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## ffemt8978 (Sep 27, 2011)

Despite what I said,
the rhetoric is rampant in this thread,
hence it shall now be considered dead.
because


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