# California Prop 11



## ITBITB13 (Sep 22, 2018)

I’m pretty surprised that no one has brought this up already..

What are everyone’s thoughts on the new Prop 11, which affects private EMS?

The proposition will mandate that EMS personnel be on call during breaks, thus eliminating meal breaks and whatnot.


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## PotatoMedic (Sep 22, 2018)

You get breaks in California?!

It also says that you get paid for any break that is interupinte.  And that you get mental health benefits.

Over all from my 30k foot altitude view of the bill and issue it seems pretty good.


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## RocketMedic (Sep 22, 2018)

I think that it doesn't really do much except for provide cost controls for companies should a break be missed, because according to current CA state law, every meal break 'missed' by having to be doing work-related activities to include posting ought to be paid time. Private companies are trying to make it paid time but treat it like an unpaid break, which is illegal. Prop. 11 shields them from it but also places the 1-hour extra cost control on it.


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## TheEleventhHour (Sep 23, 2018)

Excuse my ignorance but aren't we technically already on call during breaks?


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## NPO (Sep 23, 2018)

PotatoMedic said:


> You get breaks in California?!



Not really. One place I worked for (IFT only) have 30 minute "uninterrupted" breaks. It was usually at the whim of the dispatcher. I've heard of other IFT companies doing this, some going so far as to assign the break when the crew is stuck in traffic so the company can save time.



PotatoMedic said:


> It also says that you get paid for any break that is interupinte.  And that you get mental health benefits.



That is assuming your company gives breaks. Most don't. If you fall under this paid missed meal thing, it's usually 1 hour of pay, but the law doesn't specify, it just says "reasonable compensation".

As for mental health benefits, only through EAP.


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## PotatoMedic (Sep 23, 2018)

NPO said:


> Not really. One place I worked for (IFT only) have 30 minute "uninterrupted" breaks. It was usually at the whim of the dispatcher. I've heard of other IFT companies doing this, some going so far as to assign the break when the crew is stuck in traffic so the company can save time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm surprised no one has gone after the company for making the break be while they are driving.  During a break you have to be able to get away from any work related tasks.  Least that was the way it is in Washington.  Where I worked we didn't get breaks, we signed a waiver stating we won't get any sturctured breaks.  If we wanted we could keep our unpaid breaks but we had to go back to the main station and clock out, take our break and clock back in.  The benefit was we got paid for the entire shift.

What is wrong with EAP?


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## NPO (Sep 23, 2018)

PotatoMedic said:


> I'm surprised no one has gone after the company for making the break be while they are driving.  During a break you have to be able to get away from any work related tasks.  Least that was the way it is in Washington.  Where I worked we didn't get breaks, we signed a waiver stating we won't get any sturctured breaks.  If we wanted we could keep our unpaid breaks but we had to go back to the main station and clock out, take our break and clock back in.  The benefit was we got paid for the entire shift.
> 
> What is wrong with EAP?


The companies involved had much more going on than just shady breaks. That wasn't what was going to sink them.

EAP is fine. But the mental health support they offer isn't really what we (EMS) need. Perhaps everyone's policy is different, but the one I'm familiar with allowed 2 phone consults with a therapist per year. That's hardly enough. It's also not the kind of mental health support we need. Peer counceling and CISM, as well as one-on-one if needed is what we need.


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## RocketMedic (Sep 24, 2018)

@NPO , what shady stuff did they have?


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## ITBITB13 (Sep 24, 2018)

RocketMedic said:


> @NPO , what shady stuff did they have?



I too am curious to read peoples’ opinions on why they think this prop will negatively affect them.


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## NPO (Sep 24, 2018)

RocketMedic said:


> @NPO , what shady stuff did they have?


Medicare fraud, unlicensed ambulances, unlicensed EMTs, etc, etc.

My favorite was a friend of mine who worked for one of these outfits asked me to buy him a performance part for his truck on eBay. He didn't have the cash, but said he could pay me in diesel (we both had diesel trucks.)

His employer had shorted his pay check, and when he called them out on it they told him to make up the difference by siphoning diesel from an ambulance and putting it into his own truck.





ITBITB13 said:


> I too am curious to read peoples’ opinions on why they think this prop will negatively affect them.


I don't think it will effect me at all, seeing as I left California.

But, I don't think it's good legislation. But, it's 100% funded by AMR. And the verbage of the law is weak, and doesn't promise much. It talks about "additional training" and "mental health benefits" but doesn't actually specify what those are. All it does it get ambulance (private ambulance companies ONLY) into safer labor territory. 

AMR has paid millions in fees and lost wages to employees as a result of losing lawsuits in California, usually over missed meal breaks and incorrectly calculated overtime. Some of these employees they paid are members of this forum; including me.


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## DrParasite (Sep 24, 2018)

TheEleventhHour said:


> Excuse my ignorance but aren't we technically already on call during breaks?


In a word, no.  

you have your downtime, but it's not a break.    a break is uninterrupted, and often unpaid (like an hour lunch break).  Having time to poop without the risk of getting interrupted.  or having a meal.  Very few fire departments are running back to back calls for 12 hours straight on a regular basis; however there are plenty of ambulances who leave their station at the beginning of their shift, and don't see it again until 12 hours later.  Even cops are able to take meal breaks, which means they are typically only able to be dispatched for certain high priority calls.

I used to work for a busy 911 agency.... in a 12 hour shift, 12 to 18 dispatches were not uncommon.  In this system you were able to ask for a 10 minute break when you aren't assigned a call, during which time, by policy, you could not be dispatched for a call regardless of the nature.  Designed so you could have 10 minutes to poop in peace.

If you want to see both sides of the law:

those who question the law: http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...-prop11-ambulance-workers-20180822-story.html

those who support the law: http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...op11-ambulance-responders-20180822-story.html

For the record, this law would likely not be needed if ambulance companies didn't run their crews into the ground, staffed enough units to actually give their crews an uninterrupted break, and let their crews get a break, or at least pay them appropriately when their break was interrupted.


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## PotatoMedic (Sep 24, 2018)

I will say, being an outsider not too familiar with the culture of California ems and the politics I can't say I'm in favor or against the measure.  It looks good.  But it seems that it might not be from what you are saying.


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## Aprz (Sep 25, 2018)

This proposition is absolute garbage. It's a smoke and mirror proposition. They are tacking on a bunch of things that are already standard in California eg FEMA training, CISM, and EAP. This proposition was made and sponsored by American Medical Response primarily to get out of paying us for missed meal breaks, which they are current in court for because they haven't paid a lot of us for meal breaks, and this bill would void that from what I've been told by my union. We get paid meal breaks, but if we miss it, they are suppose to pay as an additional hour for that missed meal break. They are proposing that our response times would be quicker by not giving us meal breaks, but we actually already don't truly get our meal breaks since we get pulled off of it so frequently. I try to get a meal break every single shift, but get pulled off of almost every single shift too. This would not increase response time since we already get pulled off meal breaks, and this would just mean they don't have to pay me for a missed meal break. We get paid or normal rate during our meal break because we still have to monitor our radio and be available to respond, but they pay us an additional hour of pay if we miss that meal break or was pulled off (eg If I work a 12 hour shift, I get my full lunch break, I get paid my regular 12 hour. If I work a 12 hour shift, get pulled off my meal break due to low levels, a call, or can't get one, they are suppose to pay me 13 hours on my paycheck instead). This proposition is all about trying to make it so I don't get paid that extra hour for a missed meal break.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion...ommends-No-on-California-Prop-11-13216457.php







I don't know why our union failed to put up any against argument for the ballot (it literally says on the ballot that there is no against argument). They said that there was miscommunication with Sacramento, which to me is a pretty big serious oops. I am very disappointed in them for this. We have not done to enough to fight this like have an information picket or something in big cities.


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## DrParasite (Sep 25, 2018)

I had a feeling it was something like this.  AMR is saying it's all about what's best for the public, and gets quickers responses; in reality they don't want to have to pay for the mealbreaks.  

Looks like your union needs to contact the media and actually explain what the law does, and how it changes the current situation; at face value, it seems to benefit the public, and everyone should vote for it, because it gets the ambulance to the people in needed faster.  With a little explanation, it shows how the big companies are trying to screw their EMS workers out of their legally required meal breaks, and while that does benefit AMR, it doesn't benefit the worker.

I'd call every reporter and editor that publishes an in-favor article and explain why it hurts the local EMS worker, and only benefits big businesses.


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## COTY21 (Sep 27, 2018)

Yea this is BS 
I work for a 911 company in Los Angeles 
I do 24’s 
I rarely and mean rarely even get back to station 
We averead 3 hours of sleep and it’s not consecutively 
It’s in the rig praying a call doesn’t drop, 
And when we do get station time 
We’re doing station duties.


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## VCEMT (Oct 2, 2018)

AMR short staffing and cutting rigs is more a danger to the public.


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## DrParasite (Nov 7, 2018)

Well, the voters approved it...  Maybe emts and paramedics should start leaving California for better states to work?  

Especially if you work for AMR....


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## NPO (Nov 7, 2018)

The good news is now that AMR doesn't have to pay the $100m+ on lawsuit awards (not to mention legal fees for both sides) they will have plenty of money to give their employees raises.


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## DrParasite (Nov 8, 2018)

NPO said:


> The good news is now that AMR doesn't have to pay the $100m+ on lawsuit awards (not to mention legal fees for both sides) they will have plenty of money to give their employees raises.


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