# Report Instructor?



## goodgrief (Oct 8, 2010)

Im currently in a paramedic program,  and had a situation last week that is really not sitting well with me, I dont know if I should report my instructor for being inappropriate or not. I dont want to be one of those "girls" who cant take a joke and causing trouble. Exspecially since the program just started.... 

Let me start this by saying, I get this is a guys field, and Im not one of those women who takes everything the wrong way. I dont have a problem with jokes and stories that are told between guys, I grew up with brothers and it doesnt bug me at all. Also I'm have very very large breasts. 

Last week during an assessment practice I was in my team with two other guys and my instructor. I was the patient and the instructor starts giving on scene. 

"22 WF extremely well endowed extremely, is passed out in the library. No one knows how long she has been that way but her head is laying on her books and on her really large breast"

The situation was a diabetic emergency that required D50.

What is bugging me about this, is there is NO REASON to mention my breast for a D50 issue. Everyone gets the same initial dose, weither or not they are a G or an A cup, or if they are  300 pounds or 120 pounds. 

I just feel that for an instructor it was wrong to even put that in the case. I could see if it was a CPR case or a neddle decompression maybe, but not a D50.
Should I say something to the head instructor or just let it go?


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## bstone (Oct 8, 2010)

Good grief, he actually said that in front of you? That's blatant sexual harassment. It's incredibly illegal and incredibly against the policies of your school (or it should be). If he did that in front of you then just think what he's capable of when he wants to be more veiled.

Report him? Absolutely. To everyone. The program director, the state board of EMS, the physician medical director. Also consider getting a lawyer.

You are a victim in this case. You shouldn't be a victim, but you are. I am so sorry this happened. If he was in my employ I would can him immediately.

You need to create a log of this. Write down an incident report and include every bit of informaiton you can remember. Date, time, who was there, what was being done, exactly what he said, etc.


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## goodgrief (Oct 8, 2010)

If one of my friends made the joke I wouldnt care, but I feel for an instructor it was wrong.
 I am worried about being labeled a "problem".  I do feel though that the head instructor is a reasonable man.

Most of friends from EMT-I school  said let it go, but its been bugging me for a week now. I think I do have to say something. Thanks for your view point it seems so straight forward in your post.


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## Shishkabob (Oct 8, 2010)

Honestly, if you don't let your instructor know it makes you uncomfortable, you don't have much of a leg to stand on.  If it makes you uncomfortable, it's your duty to try to stop it at the source, then move on higher until it's corrected to your satisfaction.


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## TransportJockey (Oct 8, 2010)

OP, if you haven't talked to the instructor, I would say do that first before you go to the administrators. Just tell him it made you uncomfortable and that you would like him to not make those comments again. If he does it again, then tell the admins


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## Chimpie (Oct 8, 2010)

*Keep posts appropriate.*


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## Symbolic (Oct 8, 2010)

We had a similar situation In one of my classes. The Instructors were using excessive profanities and sexual innuendos. To make matters worse, this all occurred the first day of class! Someone in one of their classes reported them and they had to apologize to the class. Their demeanor completely changed and the class vibe was totally crushed. I personally had no problem with things.

You gotta do what you gotta do. The instructor should obviously already be aware of the repercussions from saying things like that, but he probably felt comfortable enough to joke around with you. I think guys often times forgot that females don't take those type of comments as compliments. If a female were to say something like "wow your crotch looks incredibly well endowed" I'm pretty sure we would be thrilled. If you report him, he will obviously catch on to what the complaint was about and who he directed it to. Could make for a really awkward rest of the semester. He's a man, just go up to him and ask him to tone it down a little bit. Obviously this is your choice, not ours.


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## bstone (Oct 8, 2010)

It boils down to this- do we see EMS as something professional or do we see it as a hobby, a club, a sport.

If it's something professional then we accept absolutely zero sexual harassment, inuendo, lockerroom talk, etc. If it's a hobby or sport or a club, then we're not to be taken seriously.

There is zero tolerance and zero room for harassment. If you're a woman, black, minority or walk around with a hijab. The first word of harassment, especially coming from an instructor, needs to be dealt with swiftly and decisively- in the form of immediate termination and a state investigation. 

Would you expect nurses or doctors to accept this sort of behavior in their schools or working environments?


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## abckidsmom (Oct 8, 2010)

Before I reported him to every appropriate person, I would talk to him personally.  Depending on his response when I spoke with him, I may never mention it again, or I may just talk to his supervisor, or I may report it to every person I can think of.

Lots of people have done stupid, stupid things before, and I have appreciated my learning experiences.  If I chose not to learn from my mistakes when I was confronted with them, I should not be surprised to have them smack me in the head.

This is not a mistake that can be taken lightly.


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## bstone (Oct 8, 2010)

Here is why I don't think the OP should approach him directly. He has surely done this before. He's possibly gotten a slap on the wrist for it or even a stern warning that the "next time" he'd be canned. He might have a long history or harassing women and others and may have been fired for it in the past. 

Approaching him would be if he did a minor infraction or you felt he was ignoring you in class or not answering questions directly. 

I am certain he signed off on his HR policies in which he acknowledges he will never sexually harass someone. He just isn't following them. I maintain my opinion to report him to everyone under the sun.


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## lampnyter (Oct 8, 2010)

I honestly think he was just trying to make a joke. What he said is completely innapropriate and i think you should try talking to him first. If he doesnt seem completely and honestly sorry then you should report it if it bothers you that much.


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## bstone (Oct 8, 2010)

lampnyter said:


> I honestly think he was just trying to make a joke. What he said is completely innapropriate and i think you should try talking to him first. If he doesnt seem completely and honestly sorry then you should report it if it bothers you that much.



And in the workplace/school jokes such as these are prohibited. You use jokes with friends, not with people who you are paid to impart an education to.


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## lampnyter (Oct 8, 2010)

bstone said:


> And in the workplace/school jokes such as these are prohibited. You use jokes with friends, not with people who you are paid to impart an education to.



So would this be more acceptable if it was said in the truck?


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## abckidsmom (Oct 8, 2010)

lampnyter said:


> I honestly think he was just trying to make a joke. What he said is completely innapropriate and i think you should try talking to him first. If he doesnt seem completely and honestly sorry then you should report it *if it bothers you that much*.



This is the attitude among people that makes me say, skip talking to him and report it to everyone.  "If it bothers you that much" is a way of saying "sheesh, it was nothing but _if it bothers you that much_ then by all means report him."  You (we, people in general) havegot to remember that talking about people in this manner is inappropriate, rude, and illegal.  

If I caught someone in the act of drinking out of my glass on the table in a restaurant, it would be shocking.  That is inappropriate, rude, and illegal, such that it's technically stealing.  This is more shocking because it's an invasion of someone's person. 

If I caught someone in the act of drinking out of my glass in a restaurant, I'd say, immediately, shocked and offended, "HEY, THAT'S NOT OK!"  

This is where we need to get on sexual harassment.  In the moment, everyone speaks up because it's the right thing to do, not because the girl who's coke is being drunk is going to end up thirsty later.  

Whether I call management or the cops on the guy in the restaurant depends on how contrite he is after I call him on it.  THAT is the only part of this that's a judgment call, IMO.


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## lampnyter (Oct 8, 2010)

abckidsmom said:


> This is the attitude among people that makes me say, skip talking to him and report it to everyone.  "If it bothers you that much" is a way of saying "sheesh, it was nothing but _if it bothers you that much_ then by all means report him."  You (we, people in general) havegot to remember that talking about people in this manner is inappropriate, rude, and illegal.
> 
> If I caught someone in the act of drinking out of my glass on the table in a restaurant, it would be shocking.  That is inappropriate, rude, and illegal, such that it's technically stealing.  This is more shocking because it's an invasion of someone's person.
> 
> ...



are you talking about a stranger or your husband/boyfriend?


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## abckidsmom (Oct 8, 2010)

lampnyter said:


> are you talking about a stranger or your husband/boyfriend?



Stranger.


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## lampnyter (Oct 8, 2010)

abckidsmom said:


> Stranger.



well thats obviously not okay, but are you saying you would have him arrested?


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## bstone (Oct 8, 2010)

lampnyter said:


> So would this be more acceptable if it was said in the truck?



The truck *is* the workplace. It's not acceptable.


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## lampnyter (Oct 8, 2010)

bstone said:


> The truck *is* the workplace. It's not acceptable.



Oh my mistake, i read the original post wrong. Ok lets say this happend in a fire department, i havent entered one fire department where the F word wasnt used in every sentence or where there arent any sexual jokes


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## bstone (Oct 8, 2010)

lampnyter said:


> Oh my mistake, i read the original post wrong. Ok lets say this happend in a fire department, i havent entered one fire department where the F word wasnt used in every sentence or where there arent any sexual jokes



And I have entered FDs where they were professionals and watched their language.

The days of the FD being a Boys Club are gone. Time to grow up. This sort of humor is ok when your with your own friends, but in an artificial environment like school or work it's absolutely prohibited.


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## EMS49393 (Oct 8, 2010)

lampnyter said:


> Oh my mistake, i read the original post wrong. Ok lets say this happend in a fire department, i havent entered one fire department where the F word wasnt used in every sentence or where there arent any sexual jokes



I just endured a month's worth of crude sexual jokes at my job.  There is no place for it in a professional setting, period.  Unfortunately my boss didn't see it my way, and I was terminated on Tuesday for complaining.  

You take your chances with reporting it.  Unfortunately, we don't have any rights, especially if the offender is an instructor or a boss.


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## bstone (Oct 8, 2010)

EMS49393 said:


> I just endured a month's worth of crude sexual jokes at my job.  There is no place for it in a professional setting, period.  Unfortunately my boss didn't see it my way, and I was terminated on Tuesday for complaining.
> 
> You take your chances with reporting it.  Unfortunately, we don't have any rights, especially if the offender is an instructor or a boss.



You're kidding. I am so, so sorry to hear this. It's unreal and insane. You need to get a lawyer and complain to everyone under the sun. Your lawyer can direct you to the EEOC and your state institutions to file a formal complaint. Termination for complaining about sexual harassment is common, unfortunately, but juries are sympathetic. So are newspapers.


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## johnrsemt (Oct 8, 2010)

fight the termination:  they will reinstate you with all back pay;  (they won't even try to fight that mistake of theirs in court;  very expensive and they will still lose).
 work one day and quit (if you have another job);  They have to pay back pay as long as you work one shift.


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## LucidResq (Oct 8, 2010)

goodgrief said:


> I dont want to be one of those "girls" who cant take a joke and causing trouble. Exspecially since the program just started....



Worse to be one of those girls who lets someone get away with sexual harassment.

I can see why this situation would make you uncomfortable... if something truly makes you uncomfortable enough to dwell on it and post about it on here, it's a good sign a line was crossed and something should be done. I'm not saying it in terms of "well, if it bothers you so much..." I'm saying your feelings are absolutely justified and understandable considering what was said, and action should be taken. Yes there are people that blow little things into big things, but that's actually pretty rare and you don't sound histrionic by any means. As a sane person, if you're feeling this way, someone almost certainly gave you good reason. 

Perhaps this truly was an "oops" kinda thing, but I'm more inclined to think that this is something this guy keeps getting away with. It's just sooo bold and over the line.


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## 18G (Oct 8, 2010)

I believe in zero tolerance for sexual harassment at both the workplace and school and feel you are justified in reporting the incident. I don't think its something that should be left go. If your instructor was bold enough to say what he did to you then its just a matter of time before he say's something else inappropriate that keeps you feeling uncomfortable.  

Sometimes subtle things get said which are considered crude humor or what not and it make for a good laugh which I get... but to be so direct and personal in the class room crosses the line in so many ways. If it were my daughter, girlfriend, sister, or wife, I would be really pissed.


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## lampnyter (Oct 8, 2010)

bstone said:


> And I have entered FDs where they were professionals and watched their language.
> 
> The days of the FD being a Boys Club are gone. Time to grow up. This sort of humor is ok when your with your own friends, but in an artificial environment like school or work it's absolutely prohibited.



I completely agree with you but i dont think most people where i live would because in the whole city and about 6 FDs there is i think only 1 female.


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## spike91 (Oct 8, 2010)

Be a (wo)man. Talk to him face to face, let him know it bothered you and that it wasn't appropriate. Depending on his response you should decide to report him or not. If you feel he is sincerely sorry and that it won't be an issue again, I'd leave it at that. Otherwise a report would be appropriate.


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## slloth (Oct 9, 2010)

Chimpie said:


> *Keep posts appropriate.*



Thanks for that ref!

OP-I would report it to the Instructors supervisor and the instructor.  If you dont feel comfortable reporting to the instructor (which is totally understandable) I would report it.  That is out of line and un professional.  A decent company would let him go.


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## emt seeking first job (Oct 9, 2010)

*For the original poster:*

If it bothered you enough to complain here, you perceived it as harassment.

They can not kick you out of the class.

Document it and complain to the school and the department of health.

The positive thing about the recession is there is always someone to replace an instructor but not always a student/customer....


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## EMS49393 (Oct 9, 2010)

emt seeking first job said:


> If it bothered you enough to complain here, you perceived it as harassment.
> 
> *They can not kick you out of the class.*
> 
> ...



No, but they can make her miserable and find a way to drum her out of class.  I completely understand where this girl is coming from and I get why she might be hesitant to say anything to anyone about it.

I know it seems like there are laws and we have rights, but in all honesty, it's really a difficult thing to resolve and if it turns into a battle, you'll just be labeled for your entire career.  

I went to my father about this, being a big business man with a lot of clout and experience, and he said: although it's wrong, it's unethical, it's illegal, women still just don't have any real means to fight these things.  It's very sadly almost better to turn a blind shoulder to it.  My mother agreed.  

Remember your decision could haunt you for the rest of your career.


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## Cohn (Oct 9, 2010)

bstone said:


> It boils down to this- do we see EMS as something professional or do we see it as a hobby, a club, a sport.
> 
> If it's something professional then we accept absolutely zero sexual harassment, inuendo, lockerroom talk, etc. If it's a hobby or sport or a club, then we're not to be taken seriously.
> 
> ...




obviously you don't know much nurses or doctors.


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## Cohn (Oct 9, 2010)

bstone said:


> You're kidding. I am so, so sorry to hear this. It's unreal and insane. You need to get a lawyer and complain to everyone under the sun. Your lawyer can direct you to the EEOC and your state institutions to file a formal complaint. Termination for complaining about sexual harassment is common, unfortunately, but juries are sympathetic. So are newspapers.



Yeah good luck getting another job somewhere else....


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## goodgrief (Oct 9, 2010)

*Choices Choices*

Im not worried about getting kicked out of class, if they did that then I would sue them six ways to sunday and back again. Although Im not looking to go the lawyer way over this. I feel very confident in saying that if I do decide to go to the head of the program about what was said, there would be zero attacks against me on this.

last year during EMT school at the same college, I was holding C-Spine and my teammate goes she spends so much time on her knees during the day, We all laughed because I had fallen twice during lunch and knew that was what he was talking about. The instructor (different one from last week) didnt and went off, tore the team up, threaten to throw the guy out and was like that is completey unacceptable.  So I'm not worried about the program director taking it out on me. 


I just wasnt sure if I was over reacting to what was said. I've been in the fire houses, I work in EMT; like I said  a joke between friends or a few of us at the station doesnt bug me. But then again I dont think anyone has ever made a joke about my chest. 

I just felt that as an instructor he had no business talking about my chest in this particular scenario; but wasnt sure if I was just reading more into this. It wasnt like he asked for a sexual act, or said something about sex, but I still felt uncomfortable afterwards.

And sadly as a woman in this field you do have to weigh these things. If I say something, and it gets out in the firehouse (which it would) how does that affect my cinicals? I know if I do mention this and the instructor from last week talks about it, I can forget about getting hired with the county fire dept here because I will be one of those who cant fit in to the eviornment of the service.  

I am not sure what I am going to do, but I am glad to know that Im not over reacting.

Thanks everyone for your advice. Will keep you posted about my decision.


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## goodgrief (Oct 9, 2010)

*True but*



lampnyter said:


> Oh my mistake, i read the original post wrong. Ok lets say this happend in a fire department, i havent entered one fire department where the F word wasnt used in every sentence or where there arent any sexual jokes



That is very true, but I can tell you as a woman, if a joke is made in front of you, they usualy will apolgize and feel you out for your comfort level. And respect it.


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## Shishkabob (Oct 9, 2010)

There are two types--- quid pro quo, and the continual kind.  This wouldn't be the quid pro quo kind, which only needs to happen once to justify "actual" punishment.

If it happens just once, and you don't ask them to stop, you really don't have a leg to stand on as it could be seen more as an off-color joke than actual harassment.


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## medic417 (Oct 9, 2010)

Linuss said:


> There are two types--- quid pro quo, and the continual kind.  This wouldn't be the quid pro quo kind, which only needs to happen once to justify "actual" punishment.
> 
> If it happens just once, and you don't ask them to stop, there's really nothing you can do.



I agree but more importantly part of being an adult is trying to discuss with a person what they have done that hurts you as they may not even realize that they did anything wrong.  IMHO he probably did not even think about it before he said it.


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## lampnyter (Oct 9, 2010)

goodgrief said:


> That is very true, but I can tell you as a woman, if a joke is made in front of you, they usualy will apolgize and feel you out for your comfort level. And respect it.



yea like i said, i would never ever say something like that to anybody but its what happens and unfortunatly there isnt much we could do about it. I hope things work out for you.


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## Symbolic (Oct 9, 2010)

medic417 said:


> I agree but more importantly part of being an adult is trying to discuss with a person what they have done that hurts you as they may not even realize that they did anything wrong.  IMHO he probably did not even think about it before he said it.



I'm with you on this. I would just buckle down, finish the class and move on. Its not like this guy is hitting on you or making advances. Didn't you say this happened like two weeks ago? Sorta a long time to go by without doing anything, then just deciding weeks later to file a complaint. I feel for both you and the Instructor In this situation, so I don't want to sound unsympathetic, but he likely just felt comfortable around you enough to joke around.


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## bstone (Oct 9, 2010)

Cohn said:


> obviously you don't know much nurses or doctors.



I guess 10 years of working in hospitals, clinics and ambulances and being full-time engaged with doctors and nurses would cause me not to know much about nurses or doctors. /sarcasm


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## bstone (Oct 9, 2010)

EMS49393 said:


> No, but they can make her miserable and find a way to drum her out of class.  I completely understand where this girl is coming from and I get why she might be hesitant to say anything to anyone about it.
> 
> I know it seems like there are laws and we have rights, but in all honesty, it's really a difficult thing to resolve and if it turns into a battle, you'll just be labeled for your entire career.
> 
> ...




I disagree with your father. It's not 1990 where sexual harassment was just beginning to be taken seriously. There are multiple federal and state agencies that will investigate. Not to mention civil litigation.


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## bstone (Oct 9, 2010)

Cohn said:


> Yeah good luck getting another job somewhere else....



If she experiences sexual harassment then should wouldn't want to get another job. Simple as that.


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## bstone (Oct 9, 2010)

Linuss said:


> If it happens just once, and you don't ask them to stop, you really don't have a leg to stand on as it could be seen more as an off-color joke than actual harassment.



Wait, are you saying that if she doesn't complain about it at the initial incident then she doesn't have any standing to complain if it happens in the future?

*ABSOLUTELY WRONG*

If I shrugged off one incident of someone calling me a "fu***** Jew" are you saying that I don't have standing to ask them to stop or report them if they continue to call me a "fu***** Jew"?


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## bstone (Oct 9, 2010)

Symbolic said:


> I'm with you on this. I would just buckle down, finish the class and move on. Its not like this guy is hitting on you or making advances. Didn't you say this happened like two weeks ago? Sorta a long time to go by without doing anything, then just deciding weeks later to file a complaint. I feel for both you and the Instructor In this situation, so I don't want to sound unsympathetic, but he likely just felt comfortable around you enough to joke around.



So there is a statute of limitations of two weeks for filing reports of sexual harassment? Really?


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## Shishkabob (Oct 9, 2010)

> If I shrugged off one incident of someone calling me a "fu***** Jew" are you saying that I don't have standing to ask them to stop or report them if they continue to call me a "fu***** Jew"?





If someone calls you a "***** jew" a single time, but it didn't effect you getting a job /promotion/ what ever, you would be laughed at by police and lawyers for pursuing it as a hate crime. 



Welcome to America, where we have freedom of speech so long as it doesn't impede someone elses rights. I can go out tomorrow and tell every woman I see that she has nice breast and not a damn thing can legally be done to me. 

Distasteful? Sure. Legal? You betcha.


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## medic417 (Oct 9, 2010)

Part of the problem we have as a society today is at first offense we seek to sue or press charges rather than doing the right thing which is discuss the problem first.  If after discussing the problem it continues then go after them.


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## bstone (Oct 9, 2010)

Linuss said:


> If someone calls you a "***** jew" a single time, but it didn't effect you getting a job /promotion/ what ever, you would be laughed at by police and lawyers for pursuing it as a hate crime.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Linuss, you do realize that it is illegal to harass someone in the workplace. Ever. Calling me a "fu***** Jew. Distasteful? Sure. Legal? No way.


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## bstone (Oct 9, 2010)

medic417 said:


> Part of the problem we have as a society today is at first offense we seek to sue or press charges rather than doing the right thing which is discuss the problem first.  If after discussing the problem it continues then go after them.



Medic, is it possible that there exist situations in which the "right thing" of approaching the person to talk about the problem would not be right?

I am asking rhetorically, as the answer is "absolutely, yes". 

You don't go to the guy who mugged you with a gun and "talk to him" about it. Nor the guy goes up to the Marines at a funeral and said "thank god for dead soliders! god hates you!" These people are not to be reasoned with.

The same goes for those who have no problem sexually harassing someone in front of a large group of people.


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## medic417 (Oct 9, 2010)

bstone said:


> Medic, is it possible that there exist situations in which the "right thing" of approaching the person to talk about the problem would not be right?
> 
> I am asking rhetorically, as the answer is "absolutely, yes".
> 
> ...



There is a big difference in being physically attacked and verbal commits.  If more people would discuss their problems with statements made many a problem would be solved.   Yes there are jerks that will not listen but it will help any future legal action if you show you attempted to resolve the issue with the individual.  

Not to be rude remember there are two sides to every issue.  Perhaps the OP misunderstood the statements made?  To immediately jump to suing is BS.  In fact if after the first step which is talking to the instructor it continues the next step is still not suing it is talking to the school administration.  Then if it still continues it would be reasonable to pursue legal action.


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## bstone (Oct 9, 2010)

medic417 said:


> There is a big difference in being physically attacked and verbal commits.  If more people would discuss their problems with statements made many a problem would be solved.   Yes there are jerks that will not listen but it will help any future legal action if you show you attempted to resolve the issue with the individual.
> 
> Not to be rude remember there are two sides to every issue.  Perhaps the OP misunderstood the statements made?  To immediately jump to suing is BS.  In fact if after the first step which is talking to the instructor it continues the next step is still not suing it is talking to the school administration.  Then if it still continues it would be reasonable to pursue legal action.



I am not saying she needs to sue, but she's in a position now where she needs to make sure her rights are invoked and she is fully protected from retaliation and additional harassment if she does complain. A lawyer will be able to advise her of those rights and help her navigate the complaint process. She needs an advocate.


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## Symbolic (Oct 9, 2010)

bstone said:


> So there is a statute of limitations of two weeks for filing reports of sexual harassment? Really?



No, I think I didn't make myself quite clear. What I was trying to say is: She was offended two weeks ago and now she is just getting around to wanting to file a complaint. To me, filing a complaint at this point would be more of an attempt to stick It to the Instructor. If someone offended me In a threatening manner, I would have filled a report immediately. If someone harassed me two weeks ago, I would have had plenty of time to over analyze the situation and fuel the fire with my own means of retribution. 

Of course we all have our own opinions. Fortunately enough I am not a woman and I was raised to confront a problem head on. There are more serious things to worry about then some guy's attempt to compliment you on your endowment..Just Imagine if he said you were ugly. Whole other ball game.


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## bstone (Oct 9, 2010)

Symbolic said:


> No, I think I didn't make myself quite clear. What I was trying to say is: She was offended two weeks ago and now she is just getting around to wanting to file a complaint. To me, filing a complaint at this point would be more of an attempt to stick It to the Instructor. If someone offended me In a threatening manner, I would have filled a report immediately. If someone harassed me two weeks ago, I would have had plenty of time to over analyze the situation and fuel the fire with my own means of retribution.
> 
> Of course we all have our own opinions. Fortunately enough I am not a woman and I was raised to confront a problem head on. There are more serious things to worry about then some guy's attempt to compliment you on your endowment..Just Imagine if he said you were ugly. Whole other ball game.



I guess I fundamentally disagree with you assessment. A complain of sexual harassment is valid _whenever_ it is filed. Be is a day or a year. A woman being sexually harassed might not be emotionally able to file a complain until months later. This sort of thing can be very disabling, thus the complaints are accepted whenever.


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## medic417 (Oct 9, 2010)

bstone said:


> I am not saying she needs to sue, but she's in a position now where she needs to make sure her rights are invoked and she is fully protected from retaliation and additional harassment if she does complain. A lawyer will be able to advise her of those rights and help her navigate the complaint process. She needs an advocate.



I disagree.  It is best she discuss this with the instructor.  Take a witness with her if she feels more comfortable but getting a lawyer involved escalates it immediately.   

People are imperfect and make mistakes.  Especially verbally mistakes are made all the time and the ones making the comment never realize what they said was wrong w/o someone pointing it out.  If she shows up with a lawyer the school will fire the instructor to protect themselves from legal action.  If this was a one time slip a good person has been punished when they should have just been educated about the mistake.  Look at the TV how many actors, politicians, even so called religious leaders get in trouble for one statement and all the good they may have done is forgotten.  It is time we start treating people how we would like to be treated and that should move us to try and educate a person of how their words hurt us so they can avoid the mistake again.


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## bstone (Oct 9, 2010)

medic417 said:


> I disagree.  It is best she discuss this with the instructor.  Take a witness with her if she feels more comfortable but getting a lawyer involved escalates it immediately.



So she could go to the man who just sexually harassed her and traumatized her and "talk about it"? No, man, no! Which part of "zero tolerance" is being lost here?


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## Symbolic (Oct 9, 2010)

bstone said:


> I guess I fundamentally disagree with you assessment. A complain of sexual harassment is valid _whenever_ it is filed. Be is a day or a year. A woman being sexually harassed might not be emotionally able to file a complain until months later. This sort of thing can be very disabling, thus the complaints are accepted whenever.



Agree to disagree. I don't mean to come of as blunt or overly opinionated either. I just think It has become way to easy to become offended these days. If someone looks at you wrong, or you interpret casual dialog that was never intended to be threatening as a threat, then you can just waltz right over to HR and vent your little heart out.


----------



## bstone (Oct 9, 2010)

Symbolic said:


> Agree to disagree. I don't mean to come of as blunt or overly opinionated either. I just think It has become way to easy to become offended these days. If someone looks at you wrong, or you interpret casual dialog that was never intended to be threatening as a threat, then you can just waltz right over to HR and vent your little heart out.



You are trying to downplay it, Symbolic, by saying "looks at you wrong" or "casual dialog". You're grouping it with an innocent mistake or interpretation error. That is not what happened here. The OP was sexually harassed, black and white, in front of a group of people. It's a lot more than getting looked at wrong. Don't you agree?


----------



## medic417 (Oct 9, 2010)

bstone said:


> So she could go to the man who just sexually harassed her and traumatized her and "talk about it"? No, man, no! Which part of "zero tolerance" is being lost here?



Again she may have even misunderstood what was said.  There are two sides to everything.  Also I said if more comfortable take a witness.  The zero tolerance is being taken to the extreme in way to many instances.  Again open communication would solve many many problems.  If this is the only comment made by this instructor I say she either misunderstood or it was an unintentional comment that is better solved by talking, and again she could take a witness.  

Based on your zero tolerance stance I should have sued the nurse that was part of my education ages ago that took my hand and used it to push her breast out of the way and made me put the ekg electrodes on in the correct position.  She forced me to touch her so with zero tolerance she should have legal action taken.  

Again if uncomfortable talk it out.  Then move step by step, it will work for your benefit either in being shown more respect or in collecting a bigger check in the law suit.


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## bstone (Oct 9, 2010)

medic417 said:


> Again she may have even misunderstood what was said.  There are two sides to everything.  Also I said if more comfortable take a witness.  The zero tolerance is being taken to the extreme in way to many instances.  Again open communication would solve many many problems.  If this is the only comment made by this instructor I say she either misunderstood or it was an unintentional comment that is better solved by talking, and again she could take a witness.
> 
> Based on your zero tolerance stance I should have sued the nurse that was part of my education ages ago that took my hand and used it to push her breast out of the way and made me put the ekg electrodes on in the correct position.  She forced me to touch her so with zero tolerance she should have legal action taken.
> 
> Again if uncomfortable talk it out.  Then move step by step, it will work for your benefit either in being shown more respect or in collecting a bigger check in the law suit.



We disagree. I have absolutely zero tolerance (and so does the law AND the educational institutions) for the sort of behavior that went on in that classroom.

You seem to think that there SHOULD be some tolerance for sexual harassment. No way. Wrong.


----------



## DarkStarr (Oct 9, 2010)

blah blah blah.. thats whats wrong with this society, a woman could wait 10 years to say something, and the minute she does, BOOM! ..the dudes guilty until proven innocent.


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## bstone (Oct 9, 2010)

DarkStarr said:


> blah blah blah.. thats whats wrong with this society, a woman could wait 10 years to say something, and the minute she does, BOOM! ..the dudes guilty until proven innocent.



A very forward thinking individual.


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## CAOX3 (Oct 10, 2010)

It isn't that black and white, bstone you need to take a step back and look at how this may effect her.  Its quite easy to just say report him, call the cops and get a lawyer.

W don't have to deal with the repercussions, sure maybe the guy gets fired and she is able to finish her class.  What he doesnt, he then makes her life miserable, maybe he fails her or kicks her out of class.  Maybe she losses her tuition and maybe the guy has some juice in the ems field and trashes her name so she never gets a job.

Its easy to sit in your ivory tower and peach about what needs to be done when you yourself don't have to deal with the consequences.

I agree the guy was out of lineand its a shame that she had to go through that but lets focus on what's in her best interest right now, not yours.


----------



## bstone (Oct 10, 2010)

CAOX3 said:


> It isn't that black and white, bstone you need to take a step back and look at how this may effect her.  Its quite easy to just say report him, call the cops and get a lawyer.
> 
> W don't have to deal with the repercussions, sure maybe the guy gets fired and she is able to finish her class.  What he doesnt, he then makes her life miserable, maybe he fails her or kicks her out of class.  Maybe she losses her tuition and maybe the guy has some juice in the ems field and trashes her name so she never gets a job.
> 
> ...



I know exactly how this affects people. I was the victim of a vicious anti-semetic campaign. Believe me, I understand. There is no ivory tower, there is no need to "step back". I have experience and realize why there is *zero tolerance* for this sort of behavior.

You do know what zero tolerance means, right?


----------



## medic417 (Oct 10, 2010)

bstone said:


> You do know what zero tolerance means, right?



You do know what two sides to every story means, right? 

Sad part as soon as claims are made and even if it turns out she took it out of context, misunderstood etc a persons career and family may have been destroyed.  Start at the source then work out.  Don't immediately jump out to a lawyer.


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## bstone (Oct 10, 2010)

medic417 said:


> You do know what two sides to every story means, right?
> 
> Sad part as soon as claims are made and even if it turns out she took it out of context, misunderstood etc a persons career and family may have been destroyed.  Start at the source then work out.  Don't immediately jump out to a lawyer.



So you want a woman who has been sexually harassed and traumatized to go to her aggressor and "work it out"? *No no no*.


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## medic417 (Oct 10, 2010)

bstone said:


> So you want a woman who has been sexually harassed and traumatized to go to her aggressor and "work it out"? *No no no*.



On another post I already said she can take a witness with her.  YES< YES< YES.


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## Shishkabob (Oct 10, 2010)

If talking about breast size in a joking manner has traumatized a female, EMS probably isn't the right field to be in...you know, with all the psych, rude, immature and just plain dumb people we deal with on a daily basis.  

I do a few psych calls each week.  Atleast one will be verbally abusive.  Every week.




If you can't deal with words in a totally non-threatening manner, how are you supposed to when it IS threatening?


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## bstone (Oct 10, 2010)

Linuss said:


> If talking about breast size in a joking manner has traumatized a female, EMS probably isn't the right field to be in...you know, with all the psych, rude, immature and just plain dumb people we deal with on a daily basis.
> 
> I do a few psych calls each week.  Atleast one will be verbally abusive.  Every week.
> 
> ...




Linuss, are you comparing EMTs to psych patients?

Its one thing if it comes from a Type 1 Schizophrenic. It's another when it comes from your instructor in a professional school.

Linuss, if you can't keep it professional and not comment on a colleague body then you're not professional. Let's keep it professional, shall we?


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## bstone (Oct 10, 2010)

medic417 said:


> On another post I already said she can take a witness with her.  YES< YES< YES.



You don't seem to get it. This is a traumatizing experience and there is *zero tolerance* for it, by policy. Yet you are suggesting this policy be ignored and the trauma to continue?


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## medic417 (Oct 10, 2010)

bstone said:


> You don't seem to get it. This is a traumatizing experience and there is *zero tolerance* for it, by policy. Yet you are suggesting this policy be ignored and the trauma to continue?



No I am suggesting she do what is right and follow the proper steps which step one is confront the person you feel harassed.  You seem to fail to grasp there is more than one side to each story.  By her going alone but in an area where others see or with a witness at her side she does the right thing it stopping the perceived harassment.


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## bstone (Oct 10, 2010)

medic417 said:


> No I am suggesting she do what is right and follow the proper steps which step one is confront the person you feel harassed.  You seem to fail to grasp there is more than one side to each story.  By her going alone but in an area where others see or with a witness at her side she does the right thing it stopping the perceived harassment.



Step 1 in a case of sexual harassment is reporting it to HR or other supervisory staff. Always.


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## bstone (Oct 10, 2010)

> Note  on sexual harassed in school:   Recent changes to Title IX hold academic institutions more liable
> for protecting sexual harassment complainants from retaliation.  Also, your identity must be kept
> confidential except where necessary for investigative purposes.  Know your rights in this process ahead
> of time.  If the institutional grievance channels do not clear up the situation, besides contacting a lawyer,
> ...



If she goes to the instructor then she will no longer be confidential and anonymous.


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## medic417 (Oct 10, 2010)

bstone said:


> Step 1 in a case of sexual harassment is reporting it to HR or other supervisory staff. Always.



http://www.pamf.org/teen/sex/rape_assault/sexualharass.html

"There are steps you can take to bring an end to sexual harassment some you take on your own, and others you take with adults who are both willing and required, by law, to help you.

1.Do not ignore the sexual harassment.


2.Tell or write the person who's harassing you to STOP. It may not always be clear to your harasser that the behavior is unwelcome. If you're able, tell the person directly--or write in a letter--that you don't like his or her behavior and that you want it to stop. In a situation where you are afraid to address a harasser directly, you'll need to involve your parents and/or school officials."


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## medic417 (Oct 10, 2010)

bstone said:


> If she goes to the instructor then she will no longer be confidential and anonymous.



And if she made a false claim based on misinterpretation she just ruined an innocent persons life.  I have seen people that were cleared of all charges but it was to late to save their lively hood and sadly even their marriage.


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## medic417 (Oct 10, 2010)

http://www.dotcr.ost.dot.gov/Documents/complaint/Preventing_Sexual_Harassment.htm

"To determine whether behavior is severe or pervasive enough to create a hostile environment, the finder of fact (a court or jury) considers these factors:

The frequency of the unwelcome discriminatory conduct; 
The severity of the conduct 
Whether the conduct was physically threatening or humiliating, *or a mere offensive utterance*; 
Whether the conduct unreasonably interfered with work performance; 
The effect on the employee’s psychological well-being; and 
Whether the harasser was a superior in the organization. "


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## bstone (Oct 10, 2010)

medic417 said:


> And if she made a false claim based on misinterpretation she just ruined an innocent persons life.  I have seen people that were cleared of all charges but it was to late to save their lively hood and sadly even their marriage.



And if he did nothing wrong then he has nothing to worry about. Making a report ≠ automatic guilt and conviction.


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## bstone (Oct 10, 2010)

medic417 said:


> http://www.dotcr.ost.dot.gov/Documents/complaint/Preventing_Sexual_Harassment.htm
> 
> "To determine whether behavior is severe or pervasive enough to create a hostile environment, the finder of fact (a court or jury) considers these factors:
> 
> ...



Yes, he was a superior. And a harasser.


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## medic417 (Oct 10, 2010)

Have a great day enough back and forth.  

To the OP do it right by addressing the perceived problem with the instructor either with a witness at your side or at least where others can see you.  Then based off attitude and future actions you can decide what is next step.


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## bstone (Oct 10, 2010)

medic417 said:


> Have a great day enough back and forth.
> 
> To the OP do it right by addressing the perceived problem with the instructor either with a witness at your side or at least where others can see you.  Then based off attitude and future actions you can decide what is next step.



To the OP do it right by addressing the sexual harassment problem with the supervisory staff, in writing and person, Then based off attitude and future actions you can decide what is next step.


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## firetender (Oct 10, 2010)

goodgrief said:


> I am not sure what I am going to do, but I am glad to know that Im not over reacting.



What annoys me about the world we all live in is that, by using legalities and lawyers and threats through institutions we deprive each other of "getting" that sometimes the things we do are inappropriate and hurtful.

Besides the therapeutic effect of you facing the guy square and saying, "NO! You cannot do that to me under any circumstances, refer to me in that way under any conditions and speak about me that way with anyone. Should it happen again, I'll make sure Hell comes down on you." the guy will get the message. 

Sure, if it helps have someone with you as you do so. Even more powerful as witnessed.

Be prepared for nothing. This is not about his receiving, it's about you giving it to him right between the eyes. It's you saying "NO!"

If he can't respect you publicly after that, he deserves what you'll dole out. And then, don't be surprised if you actually have an effect!


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## bstone (Oct 10, 2010)

> "NO! You cannot do that to me under any circumstances, refer to me in that way under any conditions and speak about me that way with anyone. Should it happen again, I'll make sure Hell comes down on you."



If she says this, with a witness and also delivers it to him in writing them I suppose it's an ok first step.


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## EMS/LEO505 (Oct 10, 2010)

From a legal standpoint, what he did is not harassment. Nothing becomes harassment until the victim has instructed the suspect to cease and desist his actions. Only until after that event, does he continue, it becomes harassment.
Right now, he's just looking at being inappropriate towards a student. That's only a violation of an institutional guideline, which most likely in his situation now, depending on factors, he will be but on a suspension with or with out pay.


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## bstone (Oct 10, 2010)

EMS/LEO505 said:


> From a legal standpoint, what he did is not harassment. Nothing becomes harassment until the victim has instructed the suspect to cease and desist his actions. Only until after that event, does he continue, it becomes harassment.
> Right now, he's just looking at being inappropriate towards a student. That's only a violation of an institutional guideline, which most likely in his situation now, depending on factors, he will be but on a suspension with or with out pay.



You might be correct from the legal standpoint (I am not a lawyer, so I cannot know for certain), but it may be that his HR department has policies that assume it to be harassment based on the zero tolerance policy.


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## Symbolic (Oct 10, 2010)

I can't believe we are still arguing over this. Just go to the school board, cry your little heart out, make a scene and destroy your instructors reputation for a silly comment. It's the American thing to do anyway.


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## CAOX3 (Oct 10, 2010)

Symbolic said:


> I can't believe we are still arguing over this. Just go to the school board, cry your little heart out, make a scene and destroy your instructors reputation for a silly comment. It's the American thing to do anyway.



Is it about the instructor? No he made his bed if she chooses she make him lie in it.  Comments like this have no place in the educational system.  That being said we don't live and work in black and white world, more grey actually.

B stone you seem to be on a crusade here, do you not realize the jeopardy this could put this student in?  Sure in the perfect world, this guy is punished and her life goes on without interruption.  That doesn't happen often, ems is a tight knit group and if this guys and instructor I'm sure he has plenty of connections that could unfortunately make her life in ems difficult.  Is it right, no but its reality.  Yes I know what zero tolerance is but we don't live and work in a law book.

She should know the facts first before she makes a decision.  That's what we are doing here, ultimately the decision is hers.

And yes a conversation like I'm not going to put up with that treatment can go a long way in making this situation a lot easier for her.  I don't think she trying to set precedent here just to get through her education without being a target of sexual comments.

If it was my sister our wife I would have a little sit down with this guy, and make it real simple for him, the comments stop here understood, or it gets real ugly for you and I don't think either one of us want that.


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## lampnyter (Oct 10, 2010)

If she says something to him then it will obviously stop. The only reprecussion i see is if she says something and he gets so mad that he makes class hell for her which i doubt he will do.


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## bstone (Oct 10, 2010)

I am on no crusade. The rules have been made- zero tolerance. If he admits to saying it to his supervisors then he's out. If he denies it but the other students back her up in that he said it, then he's out. Pretty simple, really.


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## bstone (Oct 10, 2010)

lampnyter said:


> If she says something to him then it will obviously stop. The only reprecussion i see is if she says something and he gets so mad that he makes class hell for her which i doubt he will do.



Are you sure it will stop? You know how many women have asked men to stop and they don't? Many. Not all, but many.


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## lampnyter (Oct 10, 2010)

Then if it doesnt stop then you take it to a supervisor. If it does stop then no harm done.


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## bstone (Oct 10, 2010)

lampnyter said:


> Then if it doesnt stop then you take it to a supervisor. If it does stop then no harm done.



No. Harm *is* done. It's only stopped.


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## lampnyter (Oct 10, 2010)

all she needs is for it to stop. If it keeps going on then by all means take legal action.


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## bstone (Oct 10, 2010)

lampnyter said:


> all she needs is for it to stop. If it keeps going on then by all means take legal action.



I just wonder how many other women he has done this to.


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## lampnyter (Oct 10, 2010)

Im sure hes done it before, and trust me, its disgusting for guys to do that to women but whats said is said and all she can do is move on.


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## bstone (Oct 10, 2010)

lampnyter said:


> Im sure hes done it before, and trust me, its disgusting for guys to do that to women but whats said is said and all she can do is move on.



And he gets away with it scottfree?


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## lampnyter (Oct 10, 2010)

Well, we cant assume somebody hasnt said anything before. Maybe somebody else said something and he got a warning/suspension. But obviously, we cant be sure.


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## bstone (Oct 10, 2010)

lampnyter said:


> Well, we cant assume somebody hasnt said anything before. Maybe somebody else said something and he got a warning/suspension. But obviously, we cant be sure.



So because somebody may have said something in the past and he may have gotten in trouble- but we don't know- he gets away scottfree this time? Really?


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## lampnyter (Oct 10, 2010)

Okay then, lets call the cops and have an FBI investigation. He may be a sex offender or a terrorist. Maybe he was behind the 9/11 attacks, we cant be to careful with these people who make one bad remark.


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## bstone (Oct 10, 2010)

lampnyter said:


> Okay then, lets call the cops and have an FBI investigation. He may be a sex offender or a terrorist. Maybe he was behind the 9/11 attacks, we cant be to careful with these people who make one bad remark.



Surely you use hyperbole. I suggest nothing of the sort.

He ought to lose his job. And a letter put in his EMS file indicating what he was fired for.


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## lampnyter (Oct 10, 2010)

Yes, i wasnt being serious. I think that if he has done this before or has a history of harrasment then he should be let go. But this could of been a slip-up and getting him fired can ruin his career.


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## bstone (Oct 10, 2010)

lampnyter said:


> Yes, i wasnt being serious. I think that if he has done this before or has a history of harrasment then he should be let go. But this could of been a slip-up and getting him fired can ruin his career.



His teaching career ought to be over based on his incredibly unprofessional attitude. His EMS career is fine as long as he doesn't do the same to a patient and he's competent.


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## lampnyter (Oct 10, 2010)

Maybe theres a way she could report the incident anonymously.


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## bstone (Oct 10, 2010)

lampnyter said:


> Maybe theres a way she could report the incident anonymously.



Yeah, a letter to the powers that be but leaving her name off of it.


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## MMiz (Oct 10, 2010)

I think this is an important discussion, so it will continue.  That said, we're watching this closely any any personal attacks will result in a vacation from the EMTLife community.


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## goodgrief (Oct 10, 2010)

Linuss said:


> If someone calls you a "***** jew" a single time, but it didn't effect you getting a job /promotion/ what ever, you would be laughed at by police and lawyers for pursuing it as a hate crime.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You can tell strangers, but you cant tell your employees that.


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## goodgrief (Oct 10, 2010)

medic417 said:


> Part of the problem we have as a society today is at first offense we seek to sue or press charges rather than doing the right thing which is discuss the problem first.  If after discussing the problem it continues then go after them.



Im not looking to file a lawsuit or have criminal charges pressed. I wasnt sure orginally if I was over reacting to what was said.

I know you didnt say I was sue happy, but this has been brought up a few times and just thought I would clarify


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## medic417 (Oct 10, 2010)

Lets see you make an anonymous letter.  Only way to investigate and even interview the instructor is to say a student claims you made comments about her large breasts.  So the instructor says yes/no/explains/etc.  Now how many large breasted students does he have?  Now he knows so now he is more likely to retaliate whether at the school or in the work force she may try and enter someday.  

Had she discussed her distaste for the comments he might have had more respect for her and even later been a help for her getting a job.  

And again if it fails you then have more legal legs to stand on.  

OK I know I said that was my last but this really is at least until my next last comment.


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## Shishkabob (Oct 10, 2010)

goodgrief said:


> You can tell strangers, but you cant tell your employees that.



 Sure I can! And I have. And they joke right on back. I have yet to hear a single complaint after 4 years. 

At the same time I don't do it on day one and give it time to not only feel out their personality, but have them understand my sense of humor. 



As has been stated, unless it's a quid pro quo situation, you NEED to ask them to stop before you can even dream of any legal actions.


----------



## goodgrief (Oct 10, 2010)

Symbolic said:


> : She was offended two weeks ago and now she is just getting around to wanting to file a complaint. To me, filing a complaint at this point would be more of an attempt to stick It to the Instructor. Fortunately enough I am not a woman and I was raised to confront a problem head on. There are more serious things to worry about then some guy's attempt to compliment you on your endowment..Just Imagine if he said you were ugly. Whole other ball game.



Alrighty then, I was brothered that day and thought about talking to the instructor and to the head of the program that friday. However I wasnt sure if was over reacting and maybe was missing some way that it would be part of the lesson. 

I sat on it over the weekend, and talked to a few friends who had been in EMT school with me. And After  the next class I was still bugged by it and posted it on here to see get some clarification from people who didnt know me to see if i was right in feeling like wtf.

and I do handle things head on, but sometimes its best to take a look at a situation before jumping in and butting heads over something.

And that statement right there of "thank God im not a woman because I handle things head on" is exactly why I have to weigh out weither its worth saying anything. 

It wasnt a compliment, an instructor or a boss, or heck a co worker has no right to make a comment about anyone's breasts.


----------



## medic417 (Oct 10, 2010)

goodgrief said:


> Im not looking to file a lawsuit or have criminal charges pressed. I wasnt sure orginally if I was over reacting to what was said.
> 
> I know you didnt say I was sue happy, but this has been brought up a few times and just thought I would clarify



Forget the sue term and consider if instructor has a good reputation if you speak to him and it solves the issue he maintains a good reputation as do you.  If you go over his head you automatically ruin his rep and probably cost him his job even if it turns out you are found to be incorrect.

Now you talk to him and he becomes a jerk about it then he deserves whatever the school meets out and for you to even then to think lawsuit.  But it is the grown up thing to actually try and talk out problems before you go next level.  You can talk to him out of ear shot but in sight of others or with one witness to keep it safe for you.


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## goodgrief (Oct 10, 2010)

Symbolic said:


> I can't believe we are still arguing over this. Just go to the school board, cry your little heart out, make a scene and destroy your instructors reputation for a silly comment. It's the American thing to do anyway.



excuse me
I never ONCE said I was looking to get him fired, Ruin his life, or cry about anything.

I never once said anything about going to the school board. 

All I was asking for was is it wrong for an instructor to mention my breast in a D50 emergency? Answer Yes

Should I go to the head of the program, who is his supervisor about this? NOT to file a lawsuit, not to get straight A's in class, but to bring it to his attention? Answer I dont know yet. 

If I do decide to go to the program director which would be this wednesday when I have class again. The convo would pretty much go like this, 
Just to let you know this was said, I thought it was out of line, Am I missing the point of this in a D50 call? if not then instructor X needs to understand that he cant say these things. I was worried about coming to you because if he feels I attacked him over this, it could effect me getting a jbo with the fire dept. 
The End.
Look at that not one mention of a law suit or me crying.



Futhermore if I do go and say something, and it turns out he has been doing this alot, then he decided to ruin his life by running his mouth to females, NOT ME. He did by making those comments.


----------



## goodgrief (Oct 10, 2010)

lampnyter said:


> Maybe theres a way she could report the incident anonymously.



thanks sadly there isnt. There are only 25 of us in class, and only 5 women, and it would be known right away who said it because the others are all small chested


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## goodgrief (Oct 10, 2010)

Linuss said:


> Sure I can! And I have. And they joke right on back. I have yet to hear a single complaint after 4 years.
> 
> At the same time I don't do it on day one and give it time to not only feel out their personality, but have them understand my sense of humor.
> 
> ...



You have really made comments about female's breasts?


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## LucidResq (Oct 11, 2010)

I wonder how many of the men on here who are saying it's not a big deal and she needs to just get over it have daughters.


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## LucidResq (Oct 11, 2010)

Symbolic said:


> No, I think I didn't make myself quite clear. What I was trying to say is: She was offended two weeks ago and now she is just getting around to wanting to file a complaint. To me, filing a complaint at this point would be more of an attempt to stick It to the Instructor. If someone offended me In a threatening manner, I would have filled a report immediately. If someone harassed me two weeks ago, I would have had plenty of time to over analyze the situation and fuel the fire with my own means of retribution.
> 
> Of course we all have our own opinions. Fortunately enough I am not a woman and I was raised to confront a problem head on. There are more serious things to worry about then some guy's attempt to compliment you on your endowment..Just Imagine if he said you were ugly. Whole other ball game.



Oh well excuse me, I wasn't aware that being born with a penis made you all-righteous, born with a sense of pure justice and able to handle all difficult situations perfectly, your majesty. Why don't you take a step back and confront your massive, baseless ego head on? Since you're a man and poor weak women like me aren't capable of such things?


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## LucidResq (Oct 11, 2010)

And if you consider that a personal attack and basis for a "vacation," fine. I refuse to tolerate blatant sexism and encouraging the perpetuation of sexual harassment because the "victim is lucky, he's complimenting you." I suppose in that same mindset rape is acceptable because the woman is lucky the man likes her so much and if she didn't like it, she should have fought back harder? This kind of attitude makes me sick.  Just another case of pushing the blame to the victims instead of the perpetrators, contributing the vicious cycle of such things never being reported out of fear and shame.


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## Shishkabob (Oct 11, 2010)

goodgrief said:


> You have really made comments about female's breasts?



I've made sexual jokes. Sexual innuendos. perverted jokes. I've never once, to my knowledge, had anything I've said sexually be taken as anything other than an attempt at a laugh. Not a single complaint or disgusted face.  But again, I choose my audience. Ask lucid if I've ever offended her. 

Heck, I had a tech last night at an er talk to me about her breasts, their size, and how she always ends up laying them in bodily fluids when moving a patient. I've only met her a couple of times before, we don't even know eachothers names, yet we're able to joke. 




Let me ask you...do you get offended when someone says "That's what she said"?   Because, to me atleast, it's the same idea in this situation until proven otherwise. 

Ilconceived joke? Maybe. Bad timing? Maybe. Wrong person it was aimed at if it was a joke? Obviously. 


But in the context you presented it in, to me who is studying CJ, to EMS/LEO, to my sister in the last year in law school, and obviously to others, it seems more like an attempt at humor than sexual harassment.


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## LucidResq (Oct 11, 2010)

Believe me Shteve, I can take a joke, as you know, but it sounds like the situation the OP was presented with would make me feel extremely uncomfortable. Mostly due to the instructor/student relationship and putting her in the spotlight in front of others kinda thing.


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## Shishkabob (Oct 11, 2010)

I agree, Lauren, obviously not the best audience or target if it was a joke, and if someone is offended by a joke obviously they (the joker) needs to rethink his future as a standup comedian....but sexual harassment, a single time, in a non quid pro quo scenario?   I don't agree.


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## bstone (Oct 11, 2010)

Linuss, if you choose your audience to co-workers whom you are also friends with and they accept your sense of humor then it is fine.

It is *not* fine for a person in an authority position (instructor) to make a joke to a student, especially if they are not friends and understand each other's sense of humor.

Get it?


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## bstone (Oct 11, 2010)

LucidResq said:


> And if you consider that a personal attack and basis for a "vacation," fine. I refuse to tolerate blatant sexism and encouraging the perpetuation of sexual harassment because the "victim is lucky, he's complimenting you." I suppose in that same mindset rape is acceptable because the woman is lucky the man likes her so much and if she didn't like it, she should have fought back harder? This kind of attitude makes me sick.  Just another case of pushing the blame to the victims instead of the perpetrators, contributing the vicious cycle of such things never being reported out of fear and shame.



Lucid, I think you just hit the nail on the head. You said it INCREDIBLY well. I will just +1 this because you said it so well.


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## Shishkabob (Oct 11, 2010)

I'm a manager. They're my employees. 


I fail to see the difference other than not selecting the proper audience.


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## bstone (Oct 11, 2010)

Linuss said:


> I'm a manager. They're my employees.
> 
> 
> I fail to see the difference other than not selecting the proper audience.



So you admit that as a manager you (regularly or not) use sexually inappropriate jokes with those who answer to you?


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## Shishkabob (Oct 11, 2010)

Sexual, yes. Inappropriate?  Hardly. Just because you might be a prude doesn't mean it's wrong. 


Be it my general manger, my co-manger, an employee that's been there for 4 years or someone that's brand new. 

Again, I know the limits, no one feels uncomfortable, it's reciprocated both ways, it's made clear it's a joke, and never crosses the line in to harassment. 




Oh noes, someone has a different sense of humor than you that others find funny too. It must not happen!


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## bstone (Oct 11, 2010)

Linuss said:


> Sexual, yes. Inappropriate?  Hardly. Just because you might be a prude doesn't mean it's wrong.
> 
> 
> Be it my general manger, my co-manger, an employee that's been there for 4 years or someone that's brand new.
> ...



You should probably talk to your HR folks about this. You're a manager, which puts you at an advantage and the employees under your supervision are worried about their employment, so they go along with it. Perhaps some find it funny and fine, but you say you use it with brand new people.

Go talk to your HR folks. Seriously.


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## bstone (Oct 11, 2010)

Linuss, since you're in Texas, I thought this document from the University of Texas might be helpful:

http://registrar.utexas.edu/catalogs/gi09-10/app/gi09.appe.html



> Sexual misconduct is behavior or conduct of a sexual nature that is unprofessional and/or inappropriate for the educational and working environment.
> 
> Behaviors that may constitute sexual misconduct include but are not limited to
> 
> ...



As you can see, it doesn't matter who the audience is. It's prohibited. Being a supervisor or teacher is even worse.


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## Shishkabob (Oct 11, 2010)

Chances are, if it's reciprocated (you know...done back) they get it's a joke.    I don't use this style of humor with every single one of my 40ish employees. I know who finds what funny.  Doesn't hurt that 90% of them are from mygeneration, so we tend to think alike.



And if only you knew who my "HR" was...


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## bstone (Oct 11, 2010)

Linuss said:


> Chances are, if it's reciprocated (you know...done back) they get it's a joke.    I don't use this style of humor with every single one of my 40ish employees. I know who finds what funny.  Doesn't hurt that 90% of them are from mygeneration, so we tend to think alike.
> 
> 
> 
> And if only you knew who my "HR" was...



Linuss, you are talking about _quid pro quo_, but the courts have regularly held that it doesn't apply when it's a supervisor/employee relationship. Employees worry about keeping their jobs and not being labeled as "problem". Not telling you what to do, but I suggest talking to your HR or company's legal counsel about what to do. Just a suggestion.


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## LucidResq (Oct 11, 2010)

I think the thing is, in making such comments, you're fine until someone gets offended. As long as you're willing to walk that line, you're ok. But you have to recognize the risk that you may at some point inadvertently overstep a boundary and there may be consequences involved. I know from my position, when I was an LT for SAR... the position was how the action/statement/"joke" was perceived, not necessarily the intention; and all complaints would be taken seriously and looked in to immediately.


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## LucidResq (Oct 11, 2010)

And I'd like to affirm it's not about being prude or not. Steve, you honestly would call me a prude? Yet I would still be seriously put off by such a statement from an instructor. Apparently I'm prude... however I would not appreciate having a particular, private aspect of my body called to attention to my classmates by my instructor and making it the center focus of everyone's attention. 

Unlike you, Steve, I am also a fairly well-endowed female. I am not ashamed of it, however, I do not need my body parts brought into the spotlight as the subject of a joke for my instructor and male classmates to giggle over like prepubescent schoolboys. I think it's inherently difficult for males to empathize with this situation.


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## Shishkabob (Oct 11, 2010)

Lauren, I know you too well to call you a prude 

(see, bstone? An example of a joke some might take the wrong way, but I know Lauren wouldn't)

I'm just trying to seperate "sexual harassment" from a (poorly thought out) joke. 


There IS a difference.


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## reaper (Oct 11, 2010)

Linuss said:


> Chances are, if it's reciprocated (you know...done back) they get it's a joke.    I don't use this style of humor with every single one of my 40ish employees. I know who finds what funny.  Doesn't hurt that 90% of them are from mygeneration, so we tend to think alike.
> 
> 
> 
> And if only you knew who my "HR" was...




You are walking a very fine line. Does not matter if you think they find it funny. All it takes is one person who says it is offensive and that's the end of the game. You will be out of a job, most likely be named in a suit and have a hell of a time finding work. I do not know where you are getting this freedom of speech thing from. You are a manager. You have no right to even tell a sexual joke to an employee. That can be considered sexual harassment, if it is reported. No, I'm sorry's. It is over and you have screwed yourself for good.

If you want to take that chance with your future, then be my guest. Once you are fired for it or named in a lawsuit, your reputation is gone and no decent agency will give you another chance. Have seen many supervisors go through the same thing. Because they could not keep their mouths shut.

What this instructor did was flat out wrong and he is an idiot for thinking it was even close to being a joke.

Now, if the OP wants to be nice, she can confront him first and see if he sees his mistake. If he does not want to take it as a learning experience, then report him to his supervisor and the school admin.


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## goodgrief (Oct 11, 2010)

Thanks for all the thoughts y'all, will let you know what I end up doing


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## Shishkabob (Oct 11, 2010)

reaper said:


> You are walking a very fine line. Does not matter if you think they find it funny. All it takes is one person who says it is offensive and that's the end of the game. You will be out of a job, most likely be named in a suit and have a hell of a time finding work. I do not know where you are getting this freedom of speech thing from. You are a manager. You have no right to even tell a sexual joke to an employee. That can be considered sexual harassment, if it is reported. No, I'm sorry's. It is over and you have screwed yourself for good.
> 
> If you want to take that chance with your future, then be my guest. Once you are fired for it or named in a lawsuit, your reputation is gone and no decent agency will give you another chance. Have seen many supervisors go through the same thing. Because they could not keep their mouths shut.
> 
> ...



Couple of things I wanted to correct before I pass out for the next 5 hours:


1)  You said "agency" a couple of times.  Just want it to be known that the place that I'm a manager at is not an EMS agency, but a private civilian business.  

It's bad enough that they trust me with drugs and defibrillator's, but to make sure other Paramedics do their jobs too?  HA!



2)  Don't go off assuming what kind of jokes I make and to what extent of how 'bad' they are.  

99% of my material has to do with "That's what she said".  The other 1%?  Discussing how gross "Tickle Me Elmo" is.


I can GUARANTEE no one will EVER get in trouble for "That's what she said" jokes.  Yet you cannot deny the fact that they are sexual in nature, and with how strictly you and bstone define 'sexual harassment', those jokes are technically 'harassment'.  


Again, I know the limits, and I know who can be told what.  People I hang out with outside of work?  Full deal.  In work?  Toned back, but that doesn't mean it can't be sexual and still be legal.

I have no qualms with telling a female employee showing a bit too much "Put those things away before some guy gets distracted and runs into a wall". But I'll never go "lulz, bewbs"


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## Aprz (Oct 11, 2010)

bstone said:


> medic417 said:
> 
> 
> > And if she made a false claim based on misinterpretation she just ruined an innocent persons life.  I have seen people that were cleared of all charges but it was to late to save their lively hood and sadly even their marriage.
> ...


In regard to what I quoted, from what I have observed, all it takes is one person to say you did it. Even if there are multiple students claiming this, how can you know they just aren't a part of the misinterpretation? In Jr. High, I was accused of racism, totally innocent of it, and you wouldn't believe how much people I didn't know, never seen before, heard of before, blah blah blah, who would say they witnessed me saying something racist. Just looking at them I could actually believe them, as if I was the obvious bad guy you see in the movies, and I didn't even do it! This one thing, which I never said, lead to many death threats and years of harrassment. I have physical scars from it. It ruined the midteen portion of my life and my (two) brothers' lives, and was solved by switching schools and staying low  (problems occasionally occurred outside of school, but it eventually died down after a couple of years).

This sucks cause there aren't too many options for you to do. From my own experience, I'd approach him first since I consider losing anonymity less of a loss than the damage that could be done to an innoncent guy (value is subjective though, you may consider anonymity more valuable than what you think are the possible, or likely, damage to this guy), but if you choose to report it instead, report with extreme caution. Be aware of what you're doing here; the possible repercussions of reporting. I don't think this guy would get beat like I did, but I am sure others would join to make sure "this guy gets what he deserves" from people I'd imagine to be like bstone (please take no offense to this, just from the comments I've been reading within this post, I'd imagine you to do something like that, you're already practically leading an anti-this guy campaign on this forum without witnessing it or anything, you are just taking her word for it on everything she has said so far). He could lose his job, probably never get a job in this field ever again, etc. Don't "I think he said this", or anything like that. If you can replay it through your head, and it can change, I'd probably not report it. I think this situation could be just like the whole Emch thing we read with two flight nurses performing a cricoidectomy. This is harder than that Emch thing though since it's one of the "he said she said" sort of thing almost. I doubt there is any real clear cut evidence like audio and video recording for this which would quickly tell people "Okay, this is what he did wrong, and this is the punishment he deserves".

I hope that everything is dealt with appropriately.


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## bstone (Oct 11, 2010)

Linuss said:


> Couple of things I wanted to correct before I pass out for the next 5 hours:
> 
> 
> 1)  You said "agency" a couple of times.  Just want it to be known that the place that I'm a manager at is not an EMS agency, but a private civilian business.
> ...



Linuss, I quoted for you from the University of Texas which laid out what's inappropriate and how the supervisor/employee relationship changes things. As well, you've been told by a few folks how you've probably crossed the line, if not walked right down the middle of it. You admit that you regularly use inappropriate sexual jokes with everything, from the veteran to the new guy. And you see absolutely nothing wrong with any of this.

Right?


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## Shishkabob (Oct 11, 2010)

So you're telling me "That's what she said" is sexual harassment and I deserve to have the book thrown at me?



Okie dokie bro.  





PC is what's wrong with America today....


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## boingo (Oct 11, 2010)

For the OP, just curious, any chance you had other conversations regarding your "very, very large breasts"?  It could be that the instructor felt comfortable with you due to prior converstations.  Despite what the "rules" say, sometimes when you think you know your audience people tend to say things they wouldn't say otherwise.

A few years back, a female EMT and her male partner frequently talked about sex, flirted, etc... One day the girl mentioned a same sex encounter, the male asked if she'd be interested in a 3 some, and he was brought up on sexual harrassment charges.  I had a tough time seeing the harrassment due to the scope of prior conversations, but maybe thats just me.


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## bstone (Oct 11, 2010)

Linuss said:


> So you're telling me "That's what she said" is sexual harassment and I deserve to have the book thrown at me?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your story is changing, Linuss.


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## Shishkabob (Oct 11, 2010)

Really?  Is it?    Look 2 posts above yours on this page.




> 2) Don't go off assuming what kind of jokes I make and to what extent of how 'bad' they are.
> 
> 99% of my material has to do with "That's what she said". The other 1%? Discussing how gross "Tickle Me Elmo" is.


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## bstone (Oct 11, 2010)

Linuss said:


> Really?  Is it?    Look 2 posts above yours on this page.



Your lawsuit, your job, your reputation. Not mine.  All a lawyer has to do is find your posts here in which you openly admit to these things and, well, I suggest you talk to your HR or legal folks.


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## Shishkabob (Oct 11, 2010)

Again--- You honestly believe that "That's what she said" is sexual harassment, let alone capable of going to court?



Wow...





You must only say knock-knock jokes at work, right?


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## bstone (Oct 11, 2010)

Linuss said:


> Again--- You honestly believe that "That's what she said" is sexual harassment, let alone capable of going to court?
> 
> 
> 
> Wow...



Talk to ya later, Linuss. Really suggest you talk to the HR and legal folks. Later


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## Shishkabob (Oct 11, 2010)

Don't dodge the question.


Do you honestly believe "That's what she said" is sexual harassment / lawsuit worthy?


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## JPINFV (Oct 11, 2010)

Linuss said:


> you cannot deny the fact that they are sexual in nature,


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## abckidsmom (Oct 11, 2010)

LucidResq said:


> And I'd like to affirm it's not about being prude or not. Steve, you honestly would call me a prude? Yet I would still be seriously put off by such a statement from an instructor. Apparently I'm prude... however I would not appreciate having a particular, private aspect of my body called to attention to my classmates by my instructor and making it the center focus of everyone's attention.
> 
> Unlike you, Steve, I am also a fairly well-endowed female. I am not ashamed of it, however, I do not need my body parts brought into the spotlight as the subject of a joke for my instructor and male classmates to giggle over like prepubescent schoolboys. I think it's inherently difficult for males to empathize with this situation.





Linuss said:


> Lauren, I know you too well to call you a prude
> 
> (see, bstone? An example of a joke some might take the wrong way, but I know Lauren wouldn't)
> 
> ...




Just to help you see it, from Lucid's post, I took it to understand that she was offended with the potential label of "prude."  Even people who ARE prudes don't like being called that.  



			
				freedictionary.com said:
			
		

> Prude:  One who is excessively concerned with being or appearing to be proper, modest, or righteous.



Using loaded language, whether you think it's funny or not, and whether the people you're talking to think it's funny or not is not a function of polite society.

The problem with America today isn't that we need to be PC in order to fend off all the sexual harassment lawsuits, it's that we've lost a sense of boundaries for polite conversation.  In an everything-goes culture, the free-for-all that results is certain to hurt people.  It's just a matter of time.


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## Symbolic (Oct 11, 2010)

JPINFV said:


>



HAHA. I wanna shake that kids hand.


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## John E (Oct 11, 2010)

*Just one thing...*

there's no such thing as a "quid pro quo" transaction or sharing of jokes when one party is supervising the other. In fact, the use of the term " quid pro quo" is more likely to be used in prosecuting the offender when he/she sexually harasses a subordinate.

What's wrong with America is people who think things like sexually harassing women is ok so long as people don't complain about it and that the people being harassed need to lighten up. Some of you people's idea of being "PC" is what used to be considered having good manners.

Defending sexual harassment is stupid, admitting to doing it and then attempting to rationalize it on a public forum is really stupid.

John E


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## Shishkabob (Oct 11, 2010)

Yup, about as stupid as calling "that's what she said" sexual harassment. 


Won't hold up in court, ever.


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## bstone (Oct 11, 2010)

Linuss, the consens is pretty clearly that the things you are saying are inappropriate. Like I said, I think you ought to consult with your HR folks or your company's attorney in order to gain insight into any liability you may have exposed you and the company to.


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## bstone (Oct 11, 2010)

John E said:


> there's no such thing as a "quid pro quo" transaction or sharing of jokes when one party is supervising the other. In fact, the use of the term " quid pro quo" is more likely to be used in prosecuting the offender when he/she sexually harasses a subordinate.
> 
> What's wrong with America is people who think things like sexually harassing women is ok so long as people don't complain about it and that the people being harassed need to lighten up. Some of you people's idea of being "PC" is what used to be considered having good manners.
> 
> ...



Well said, sir!


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## Shishkabob (Oct 11, 2010)

bstone said:


> Linuss, the consens is pretty clearly that the things you are saying are inappropriate. Like I said, I think you ought to consult with your HR folks or your company's attorney in order to gain insight into any liability you may have exposed you and the company to.





God I love how you continue to cherry pick to fit your side yet continue to ignore a very simple question;


 Do you, or do you not, view "that's what she said" as not only sexual harassment, but also as suit worthy, and not just a potentially wrongly placed joke"?


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## bstone (Oct 11, 2010)

Yawn. Later, Linuss. I'm going to watch a movie.


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## Shishkabob (Oct 11, 2010)

See, It's ok bstone, even you can admit youre wrong on this one.


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## ffemt8978 (Oct 12, 2010)

Okay, this has gone on long enough in this thread between you two.

I'm closing it for at least 24 hours to allow everyone to cool off a bit.


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## ffemt8978 (Oct 12, 2010)

This thread is now reopened with a caveat.

It is one of only three threads that I am now subscribed to in this entire forum, which means that I'm going to be paying an inordinate amount of attention to what happens here.

If I have to close it again, at least one person will be getting a forum vacation.  You're free to disagree with anyone you want to, but there comes a point when you have to agree to disagree, and just move on.  This thread crossed that line.


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## medic417 (Oct 12, 2010)

Thank you for reopening this thread as it is educational and hopefully gets people thinking.


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## Indy (Oct 12, 2010)

Yes report it. It is sexual harassment. In a firehouse, you may experience the same type of humor but relaying that sexual humor based on your personal appearance is sexual harassment. Sexual harassment should be taken very seriously. 

When you get to a firehouse though, don't be surprised to hear firemen talking about your physique behind your back. It's inevitable for the ladies.   (as long as it doesn't go too far of course..)


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## Lifeguards For Life (Oct 12, 2010)

ffemt8978 said:


> This thread is now reopened with a caveat.
> 
> It is one of only three threads that I am now subscribed to in this entire forum, which means that I'm going to be paying an inordinate amount of attention to what happens here.
> 
> If I have to close it again, at least one person will be getting a forum vacation.  You're free to disagree with anyone you want to, but there comes a point when you have to agree to disagree, and just move on.  This thread crossed that line.



what are the other two threads?


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## bstone (Oct 12, 2010)

I know I was one of the major players in causing the thread to close for a period of time. Because of that I will not be replying beond this post. My position is pretty well said and I just hope we can all be mature and professional and bring honor to our profession.


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## medic417 (Oct 12, 2010)

bstone said:


> I know I was one of the major players in causing the thread to close for a period of time. Because of that I will not be replying beond this post. My position is pretty well said and I just hope we can all be mature and professional and bring honor to our profession.



Good reply and as one that disagreed and still disagrees with your position I to hope we all work to build this into a profession we can be proud of.


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## Paramaybe (Oct 13, 2010)

It's definitely inappropriate, without a doubt but I would make it known to someone.
At least he can get remediation in how to not be a creepy d-bag.


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## medic417 (Oct 13, 2010)

Paramaybe said:


> It's definitely inappropriate, without a doubt but I would make it known to someone.
> At least he can get remediation in how to not be a creepy d-bag.



If he doesn't have a reputation as one already that is why I suggested talk to him with a witness so he doesn't progress to being one.  He wins she wins we all win.  Lets all sing together now......."Imagine all the people Sharing all the world".............



For those to young to know good music  John Lennon - Imagine


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## ShannahQuilts (Oct 14, 2010)

Well, I'm guessing that the event is long over, and the OP has already done what she's going to do, but I'm going to weigh in here in the hopes of helping the next person.

The best information that you get is by being present at the time.  There are hundreds, maybe thousands, of little details that the OP saw that none of the rest of us did.  OP, you are in the best position to make a determination about what you saw, and how you feel about it.  Those two things should guide you as to your next step.

If you read "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin deBecker, you will read about situations where people have predicted something very accurately based on what seems to be very little information.

Like the time a plain brown wrapped box came into a company, and one coworker said (as a joke) "I'm leaving before that bomb goes off." and sure enough, it was a bomb, sent by the Unabomber.  The coworker had headed back towards his office, which probably saved his life.

I have a lot of respect for intuition, hunches, and gut instincts.  I am only here because I had a gut instinct to run when someone was trying to kill me.

I think women are belittled for "women's intuition", and students are generally in a position where they doubt themselves, and I think that does us all a big disservice.

So, OP, whatever you think you should have done, I hope you did, because you know more about the situation than any of the rest of us.


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