# Another cop stops a speeding car on the way to the ER with a dying patient thread



## bstone (Aug 8, 2010)

> Jones had begun following the vehicle of Tracey Lott after he was speeding through Diboll to get his friend, Johnny Hodge, to a Lufkin hospital.



http://www.ktre.com/global/story.asp?s=12933393


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## Shishkabob (Aug 8, 2010)

If it truly is an emergency, and you're not less than a mile from the hospital, there is NO reason not to call 911 for an ambulance.  Period.


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## bstone (Aug 8, 2010)

Linuss said:


> If it truly is an emergency, and you're not less than a mile from the hospital, there is NO reason not to call 911 for an ambulance.  Period.



I don't have an explanation for why they didn't call 911, but it's pretty egregious for the cop to not escort them to the ER and then write his precious tickets after.

Don't you agree?


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## Shishkabob (Aug 8, 2010)

No, I don't.



Infact, at 16:36 the officer even goes back to the pickup and tells the passenger "I have an ambulance coming for you".  He did all that I expect him to do.


Also, the ambulance leaves without the patient, so it obviously wasn't that bad (even if he DID refuse, they could have stayed longer to try to convince), AND they bypassed a closer hospital.


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## bstone (Aug 8, 2010)

A patient can choose to refuse ambulance transport and make their own way to a hospital. Refusing an ambulance does not mean it's not a true emergency. Clearly, the cop was canned for this stunt he pulled, so it's obviously not policy to prevent the sick and injured from getting to a hospital. 

Bravo to the higher ups who qucikly canned this corrupt cop.


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## Shishkabob (Aug 8, 2010)

Corrupt my butt.  He made a judgement call, and just because you disagree with it doesn't make it wrong.  Heck, he wasn't fired, he resigned... whether it was due to pressure from higher-ups is unknown and as such silly to say, especially since the city manager said that following an investigation, the officer did many things correctly.  And, he even stated to the news that he would have helped them to the hospital had the immediately stopped in the first place.



Yes, I know patients can refuse, but the EMS crew was in and out of the scene very quickly.  I don't know about you, or how you handle refusals, but I can spend as much as 20+ minutes trying to convince a patient to go if I think they need to go, even if they gave me an adamant "NO!"  Their "NO" can't make me leave and there is no law in this land that says I can't talk to people.   Especially since the stated reason he refused was because he "couldn't afford it".


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## bstone (Aug 8, 2010)

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. 

At least there is one less corrupt cop off the streets.


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## Shishkabob (Aug 8, 2010)

Corrupt or not aside... he didn't lose his TCLEOSE, he'll most likely get a job at another PD in the state.


He wins.


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## Aidey (Aug 8, 2010)

I'm with Linnus on this one. Sorry people, but there are rules for a reason. When it comes down to it, I don't really care why you were speeding. The officer has no way of knowing that ahead of time. The other issue is that if the officer does go "oh, ok, well carry on then", and the driver continues to speed or drive recklessly and is in an collision, guess who is going to get sued? The police. 

If you are pulled over for breaking traffic laws and you have someone who needs medical attention in the vehicle, you should be appropriately detained and PD should request EMS. If you choose not to take the ambulance, and instead wait with the detained party that is your own problem. I'm pretty sure that if you absolutely don't want anything to do with the ambulance, the officer would call you a taxi instead. 


Also, what insurance won't cover an ambulance ride to the closest hospital? I know there are some pretty crappy insurance companies out there, but even Medicare/Medicaid cover to the closest hospital.


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## Aidey (Aug 8, 2010)

Linuss said:


> I don't know about you, or how you handle refusals, but I can spend as much as 20+ minutes trying to convince a patient to go if I think they need to go, even if they gave me an adamant "NO!"  Their "NO" can't make me leave and there is no law in this land that says I can't talk to people.   Especially since the stated reason he refused was because he "couldn't afford it".



To me it depends on how the patient is when we walk up. If I walk up and say "Hi, I'm a paramedic with the ambulance, what is going on today?" and the patient yells "F*ck Off B*tch" and I reply "I'm just here to help" and he spits at me, I'm not going to spend a lot of my time discussing the matter.


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## bstone (Aug 8, 2010)

If someone refuses after getting a clear explanation then I will not use every psychological trick in the book (aka intense pressure) to make them go to the hospital in an ER.


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## Shishkabob (Aug 8, 2010)

Aidey said:


> To me it depends on how the patient is when we walk up. If I walk up and say "Hi, I'm a paramedic with the ambulance, what is going on today?" and the patient yells "F*ck Off B*tch" and I reply "I'm just here to help" and he spits at me, I'm not going to spend a lot of my time discussing the matter.



Shoot, they spit on me, and they get tackled and I get some Valium on board (Either on the patient, or for myself :O  )

Gotta love it being a felony to assault a Paramedic in Texas


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## jjesusfreak01 (Aug 8, 2010)

I think in these situations you have to look at the area and probable EMS response times. If the response time for a real emergency call is less than 10 minutes, why would you ever want to drive yourself? If you live five minutes from the hospital then sure, drive with traffic and you'll be there before ems could even get to you. 

The only time I could see this being justified is in a more rural community where the ambulance is 30 minutes away and the hospital is 30 minutes away. If its a real emergency, im not waiting, and ill drive as safely as possible at whatever speed I deem safe. Ill also probably call 911 so the cops know what im up to. But thats ok, because its a rural area and Sheriff Joe's son plays baseball with my kids, so he'll just as likely give me an escort as anything.

These people should also know you can just not pay an ems bill as easily as you can not pay a hospital bill. Dont do something stupid just because you don't want to pay for ems.


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## CAOX3 (Aug 8, 2010)

I read as much as I could, I couldnt view the video.  I agree just because *YOUR* having a medical emergency it doesnt give you the right to risk everyone else's life in pursuit of care.

Smashing the windshield and holding them at gunpoint seems a little excessive to me.

And as far as notifying 911 that you will be speeding around and putting every other driver on the road in jeopardy because your friend needs emergency care doesnt eliminate you from responsability.


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## Shishkabob (Aug 8, 2010)

CAOX3 said:


> Smashing the windshield and holding them at gunpoint seems a little excessive to me.



Police SOP during/after a chase.


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## FLEMTP (Aug 8, 2010)

CAOX3 said:


> Smashing the windshield and holding them at gunpoint seems a little excessive to me.




Fleeing from a LEO is a felony. He conducted a felony stop. He was well within his right, as he had NO idea why the vehicle was speeding and refused to stop. For all he knew.. it could have been a carjacking situation with a hostage. 

He was also lenient with the driver by cutting him loose. I dont know about the traffic code in texas, but in some states 20 over and higher is a misdemeanor, which makes it an arrestable offense. He also wrote him for disobey of a police officer vs fleeing and eluding which is a felony, So the old man was VERY lucky to not take a trip to jail, and have to deal with his car being impounded and towed.

Long story short, there are EMT's and Paramedics for a reason. Next time call them instead of playing hero and risking the safety of the general public.


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## Fox800 (Aug 8, 2010)

bstone said:


> I don't have an explanation for why they didn't call 911, but it's pretty egregious for the cop to not escort them to the ER and then write his precious tickets after.
> 
> Don't you agree?



No I don't. Can you imagine the LEO "escorting" them to the hospital when they get T-boned? Can you say lawsuit? No LEO agencies around here would escort a POV to the hospital (to my knowledge). Call for EMS.


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## Shishkabob (Aug 8, 2010)

I wonder if bstone would allow the ambulance that was on scene to escort the car, as well...


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## atropine (Aug 8, 2010)

What d*$k cop, I guess they don't teach you how to turn off your siren in the acdemy, the very least he should have gave a warning and tell them to slow it down, or the ambulance alternative, I guess you don't have to hit the tredmill to be a cop for this PD as well.


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## Shishkabob (Aug 8, 2010)

I guess you don't have to pass 5th grade English composition to be a Paramedic in LA.




See?  It works BOTH ways.


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## bstone (Aug 9, 2010)

Linuss said:


> I guess you don't have to pass 5th grade English composition to be a Paramedic in LA.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Comment on the topic, not the member. Ok?


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## CAOX3 (Aug 9, 2010)

FLEMTP said:


> Fleeing from a LEO is a felony. He conducted a felony stop. He was well within his right, as he had NO idea why the vehicle was speeding and refused to stop. For all he knew.. it could have been a carjacking situation with a hostage.
> 
> He was also lenient with the driver by cutting him loose. I dont know about the traffic code in texas, but in some states 20 over and higher is a misdemeanor, which makes it an arrestable offense. He also wrote him for disobey of a police officer vs fleeing and eluding which is a felony, So the old man was VERY lucky to not take a trip to jail, and have to deal with his car being impounded and towed.
> 
> Long story short, there are EMT's and Paramedics for a reason. Next time call them instead of playing hero and risking the safety of the general public.



Yeah, it seems there is more info in the video, which I couldnt view.

Just wondering why they paid to have the guys windshield replaced, did they believe the officer acted out or was it public outcry?

And was the officer fired, I couldnt find that information?


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## bstone (Aug 9, 2010)

CAOX3 said:


> And was the officer fired, I couldnt find that information?



They let him resign.


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## Aidey (Aug 9, 2010)

Wasn't he cleared in the investigation though? That kind of implies that he wasn't going to be fired.


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## bstone (Aug 9, 2010)

Aidey said:


> Wasn't he cleared in the investigation though? That kind of implies that he wasn't going to be fired.



The investigation obviously did not clear him of wrongdoing.

We'll find out of his liability with the civil trial (assuming it doesn't get settled).


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## adamjh3 (Aug 9, 2010)

It's okay for someone to break the law and endanger the lives of others in their perception of an emergency?


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## FLEMTP (Aug 9, 2010)

atropine said:


> What d*$k cop, I guess they don't teach you how to turn off your siren in the acdemy, the very least he should have gave a warning and tell them to slow it down, or the ambulance alternative, I guess you don't have to hit the tredmill to be a cop for this PD as well.



haha dont get me started on firefighters and their fitness ( or lack thereof)

and what a d*$k firefighter/medic... judging a cop without knowing why they leave their siren on. There is a very good reason why they do that...kinda like there is a very good reason you see firefighters laying all over the ground with their gear off and drinking icewater while a house burns down.  Dont judge unless you do the job. Like I said in a previous post..the driver is lucky he isnt sitting in a jailcell..


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## bstone (Aug 9, 2010)

adamjh3 said:


> It's okay for someone to break the law and endanger the lives of others in their perception of an emergency?



Good question. I was thinking the same! Why would a cop break the law and endanger a person's life based on his perception of a traffic violation being an emergency. It's mindboggling.


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## fortsmithman (Aug 9, 2010)

The officer did everything right, he should not have resigned.   He called an ambulance for the people involved.  As for using his sidearm the stop was a high risk stop, if I was in his shoes I and most of us would have done the same as the officer did not know it was a medical emergency.


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## boingo (Aug 9, 2010)

bstone said:


> Good question. I was thinking the same! Why would a cop break the law and endanger a person's life based on his perception of a traffic violation being an emergency. It's mindboggling.




Your Cambridge is showing....LOL   Maybe he acted "stupidly"....B)


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## Shishkabob (Aug 9, 2010)

bstone said:


> Comment on the topic, not the member. Ok?



Just FYI, that snide remark wasn't aimed at you


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## atropine (Aug 9, 2010)

FLEMTP said:


> haha dont get me started on firefighters and their fitness ( or lack thereof)
> 
> and what a d*$k firefighter/medic... judging a cop without knowing why they leave their siren on. There is a very good reason why they do that...kinda like there is a very good reason you see firefighters laying all over the ground with their gear off and drinking icewater while a house burns down.  Dont judge unless you do the job. Like I said in a previous post..the driver is lucky he isnt sitting in a jailcell..



I see no reason why a siren should be left on while trying to converse with a suspect, and yeah their job is not that hard we get LAPD in our stations all the time writing reports and I got to tell ya it's way easirer than runing twenty plus calls shift.


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## Shishkabob (Aug 9, 2010)

I'm sorry.

I thought sirens were to warn people of an emergency, and here I am with my silly thought that a felony stop with guns drawn is an emergency.


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## Aidey (Aug 9, 2010)

Linuss said:


> I'm sorry.
> 
> I thought sirens were to warn people of an emergency, and here I am with my silly thought that a felony stop with guns drawn is an emergency.



Has anyone here ever run into a situation where the officers leave their siren on after they are out of the vehicle?


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## atropine (Aug 9, 2010)

Aidey said:


> Has anyone here ever run into a situation where the officers leave their siren on after they are out of the vehicle?



No not really, LAPD is good about attention to detail so that rarley happens.


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## BLSBoy (Aug 9, 2010)

bstone said:


> At least there is one less corrupt cop off the streets.



Do you even know what corrupt is?


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## BLSBoy (Aug 9, 2010)

The cop followed the book. 
How many of you second guessers are LEOs?
Know the dangers LEOs face?

Tool bags. :glare:


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## adamjh3 (Aug 9, 2010)

bstone said:


> Good question. I was thinking the same! Why would a cop break the law and endanger a person's life based on his perception of a traffic violation being an emergency. It's mindboggling.



What laws did the police officer break? He initiated a traffic stop based on the circumstances, then called an ambulance for the person who "needed" to get to the hospital who then refused care. What else would you like him to do? If he didn't do his job, people with your mindset would still complain.

Actually, let's take it this way. Say the occupants of this vehicle crash on the way to the hospital and kill someone. A little girl crossing the street, how about that. We later find out that a police officer didn't pull them over after seeing excessive speed. Then the occupants of the vehicle are stupid for not seeking appropriate care, and the officer is a lazy pig for not doing his job. 

So many of us who would never second guess an EMS professional without being on scene with all the facts are so quick to jump all over Law Enforcement Officers in the same situation. This saddens me.


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## FLEMTP (Aug 9, 2010)

Aidey said:


> Has anyone here ever run into a situation where the officers leave their siren on after they are out of the vehicle?




Quite often on felony stops where a chase has ensued it is QUITE COMMON to get out of your car with the siren still going. there are MANY MANY REASONS!

You just chased after a fleeing suspect (who now is a felony suspect) You have NO idea why they ran, if they are armed, or what their intent is. While chasing them, they suddenly bail. Leaving your siren on accomplishes many things.

1. alerts incoming backup exactly where you are. Sometimes in a chase situation things change so rapidly that responding units may only know a general area you are in. Leaving your lights AND your siren on gives them a visual and auditory clue as to your exact location

2. Loud decibel sirens can confuse and disorientate your suspect, allowing you the upper hand in apprehension.

3. Things change so fast in a chase situation, the 2 seconds it takes to locate and disable your siren could be the 2 seconds the suspect takes to exit the vehicle and begin shooting at you, and possibly kill you.

Now, it is SAD that I have to EXPLAIN this to people on an EMS board.. with other fellow first responders...

No.. I take that back.. its not only sad.. its sheer ignorance. 

Atropine, if you think that the job of a LEO is so easy, go try being one. I'd be willing to bet you wouldnt make it out of the academy, let alone your FTO time. 

Unlike being a firefighter, you have to actually use your brain, and think on your feet. Its also a job that will get you killed just because of the uniform you wear.. and sometimes ONLY because of the uniform you wear. People hate you for who you are. 

I bet that's something a firefighter has never experienced...and I hope they never have to. 



atropine said:


> No not really, LAPD is good about attention to detail so that rarley happens.



The LAPD also tends to work 2 man cars many times, and they have a second person who can tend to things such as killing a siren. I'd also bet money they have park-kill modules installed on their sirens too.

I just love it when people see fit to judge other people's performance on the job when they've never done the job themselves. You figure EMS would be the most understanding of it, I guess that's what I get for figuring...shame on me that some of you might actually GET IT.
:glare:


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## ffemt8978 (Aug 9, 2010)

And that's enough LEO bashing in this one.


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