# Masters degree with EMS



## ExpatMedic0 (Dec 30, 2012)

I found this article interesting http://www.emsworld.com/article/10319539/graduate-degrees-are-they-worth-it-for-ems

The most popular ones I see Paramedics obtain are Masters of Public Health (MPH), Master of Business Administration (MBA), Master of Education (MEd),  Masters in Disaster managment, and Master of Physician Assistant Studies (MPAS)

Although there are Masters level degree's specifically for EMS and Paramedicine(a lot in Australia from what I can see) it seems such thing are still a growing trend in the U.S. and one of the other above degree tracks would serve the medic better.

So in your opinion is a Masters Degree worth it in EMS for today and tomorrows leaders? 

EMS policy developers, EMS researchers, EMS professors at universities, Managers of EMS agency's and departments, and those cross roads of EMS with things like public health, large disasters, and occupational health areas. One day even 911 field providers! (YES I SAID IT ;-) )Like in many of the common wealth countries ;-) I would love to see an "MPH Paramedicine hybrid provider" one day doing house calls, how about you?

 What are your thoughts and opinions?


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## NYMedic828 (Dec 30, 2012)

If I am going to obtain a masters, I am not going to work EMS as my primary career.

Plenty of guys work EMS as a side gig because they enjoy it but if I am going through the trouble of a masters, it will be for a title above paramedic. A high school diploma doesn't get me further than the next guy in EMS land.


In a perfect world, paramedic would be a bachelors degree and more with a masters. But that horse has been beaten, buried, dug up and beaten some more.


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## Summit (Dec 30, 2012)

MPH is not really a direct patient care clinical degree. It is a research/policy/management degree.


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## mycrofft (Dec 30, 2012)

Why should employers hire someone with a degree when the place is teeming with certificated people willing to work for less?

Oh, yeah, eventually they might be required to?


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## NYMedic828 (Dec 30, 2012)

mycrofft said:


> Why should employers hire someone with a degree when the place is teeming with certificated people willing to work for less?
> 
> Oh, yeah, eventually they might be required to?



By the time employers require a degree systemically, for EMS, I could probably complete a bachelors and med school, twice.

I think we are too set in our ways to effectively change titles that already exist.

What I see as plausible, is the implementation of a new title above paramedic that requires a degree. I wouldn't even call them a "community paramedic" or anything with EMT/medic in the title. 

Agencies like to advertise by offering the highest level of pre hospital care, if a new higher degreed title existed they would easily find employment and as a new entity can haggle their pay.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Dec 30, 2012)

Well there are a good number of Paramedics who hold masters degree's currently that teach at universities and serve as faculty in the EMS department. In addition to that I have seen plenty of Paramedics who got into EMS research or policy making, epidemiology, and upper management at the local and federal level. 

I think the U.S. is still a long way off requiring it for our front line patient care providers, so it would most certainly take you off the rig. However if you take a look at the bigger picture of things, I see it as valid and in use with the possibility of it being more mainstream in the future.

In terms of front line pre-hospital health care providers holding masters degree's... it already exist in Australia and other western countries. Paramedicine is not exclusive to the United States and EMS is not exclusive to transport jockey work.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Dec 30, 2012)

Summit said:


> MPH is not really a direct patient care clinical degree. It is a research/policy/management degree.



Yes I am aware of that  We still use those things in EMS you know


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## Summit (Dec 30, 2012)

schulz said:


> Yes I am aware of that  We still use those things in EMS you know



My point was that if you want a Paramedic to make house calls as you posted, the MPH you suggested is not the education they need. PA would be better... or short of that, RN.


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## WTEngel (Dec 30, 2012)

I think the post grad format to mimic would be the nursing style, which primarily tracks post graduate education for nurses into the following pathways:

Mid-level provider - Nurse Practitioner, DNP
Education - MEd
Management - Healthcare administration.

If we could get our undergraduate situation together in EMS, I think there is a viable argument to be made for putting together a special pathway for Bachelor's level paramedics to go into special MPAS programs specializing in pre-hospital or out of hospital medicine. Notice I did not say emergency medicine.

A track for folks interested in education is important for the future of our profession also. un-educated paramedics doing initial education for soon to be un-educated paramedics has not done anything for the past 30 years in our profession, and it will be the end of us if we continue it for 30 years. EMS simply can not keep pace with the changing technology and science if our educators are themselves under educated.

Finally, having management with professional, post graduate level education is crucial for the longevity of our profession. Under educated managers simply don't seem to manage for the long term, and all to often seem to be the result of the good ol' boy system, and are subject to power trips etc. I am not saying this does not happen with post graduate trained folks, but it would go a long way to help reduce these situations.

At any rate, in direct response to you Schulzenstein, I think post-graduate level education opportunities specific to EMS professionals will continue to be few and far between in America until we treat our initial education more like true collegiate level, EDUCATION, and not vocational trade education.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Dec 30, 2012)

Sorry I was kind of going in 2 directions with my ideas.

1. Is of course of leaders, upper management, educators, researchers, and executives/chiefs.

2. Is front line pre-hospital care providers with masters degree. This concept is still considered borderline outlandish in the USA but is already in use in many countries. Even in the USA there are some new graduate programs focusing on this, university of Baltimore county I believe has one.

Furthermore, Public health is a broad field that is continuing to expand. It is already a chunk of EMS's duty. http://www.emedhealth.com/files/Public_Health_Perspectives.pdf
http://communityparamedic.org/

One such field expanding in public health at the graduate level is "Primary Health Care & Health Disparities" which is open to Paramedics

but where I was really going with this, is the system in Australia which walks a thin line between pieces of public health/community health and a mid level provider making house calls as an advanced paramedic with a graduate degree. One such example of this is here, but there are many more. http://www.ecu.edu.au/future-students/our-courses/disciplines-overview?id=I58&unitset=SPAALN

Here they have a hybrid of MPH course work with front line provider course work.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Dec 30, 2012)

Ya but aren't you and I both completing undergraduate degree's in Paramedicine and Emergency Medical Services right now? Are we doomed Travis!? 



WTEngel said:


> At any rate, in direct response to you Schulzenstein, I think post-graduate level education opportunities specific to EMS professionals will continue to be few and far between in America until we treat our initial education more like true collegiate level, EDUCATION, and not vocational trade education.


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## WTEngel (Dec 30, 2012)

You maybe... I'm headed to medical school! ; )

All joking aside...

Unfortunately, I would have to agree with you for the most part. Even though I feel like completing my BS is making me a much better paramedic, it does nothing for me professionally if i stay here in the USA... Unless of course I leave EMS and try to change things from the top down after I complete medical school, which is my intention anyway.


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## VFlutter (Dec 30, 2012)

In a perfect world I would love to see a nursing MSN model applied to EMS. But that would require a big increase in bachelors programs and a willingness to spend 4+ years in school. How many people in EMS now would do that? I think the incentive needs to start with educators. IMO the teacher should always hold a degree higher then that which their students will be receiving. If that makes sense.


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## DrParasite (Dec 31, 2012)

schulz said:


> The most popular ones I see Paramedics obtain are Masters of Public Health (MPH), Master of Business Administration (MBA), Master of Education (MEd),  Masters in Disaster managment, and Master of Physician Assistant Studies (MPAS)


both the MPH and MBA are about management in the Paramedic system, MEd is for people who want to teach, Disaster management is pretty new (and i don't know anyone who has that), and MPAS are for people who want to be PAs not paramedics.

with the except of disaster management, they really aren't clinical paramedic masters degrees.


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## RemoteMedicineIreland (Dec 31, 2012)

Here in the EU there are Master's Degree for those with more than 3 years post training experience. No Bachelors needed.

The Master's in Science is a two year programme costing £6110 for the whole degree. 

It is a lot cheaper than doing a BS then a MS degree in the US.

FAFSA recognized as well through Middlesex University, UK.

link


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## ExpatMedic0 (Dec 31, 2012)

DrParasite said:


> both the MPH and MBA are about management in the Paramedic system, MEd is for people who want to teach, Disaster management is pretty new (and i don't know anyone who has that), and MPAS are for people who want to be PAs not paramedics.
> 
> with the except of disaster management, they really aren't clinical paramedic masters degrees.



As I stated earlier, those degree's mentioned where not clinical, they where to reference EMS researchers, leadership roles requiring skills in planning, research and development, EMS policy makers, EMS educators, and organizational operations... With out these people none of us would have a job and nothing will ever get better or progress.

The "clinical masters" degree, which is the other thing being talked about does not pertain to those above degrees(as explained earlier). However such a degree and Paramedic Practitioner already exist. It is in practice in Australia and other countries. Even pilot programs in the U.S. have been discussed.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Dec 31, 2012)

RemoteMedicineIreland said:


> The Master's in Science is a two year programme costing £6110 for the whole degree.
> 
> 
> link



Wow that is cheaper than 2 semesters of my undergraduate tuition :glare:


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## RemoteMedicineIreland (Dec 31, 2012)

schulz said:


> Wow that is cheaper than 2 semesters of my undergraduate tuition :glare:



Yup. I paid 30k for my BSc and 60k for my MA in the US before retiring here to Ireland. I wish that I had looked around first


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## EpiEMS (Jan 8, 2013)

Anybody thinking of doing a non-clinical masters as an EMS provider (or have one)? I'm looking into MHA and MPH programs pretty seriously.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jan 9, 2013)

EpiEMS said:


> Anybody thinking of doing a non-clinical masters as an EMS provider (or have one)? I'm looking into MHA and MPH programs pretty seriously.


Yes I am looking into MPH, among others at the moment. I still have 3 semesters until my undergraduate is done though. When I say "looking into it" I mean fiddling around with the idea


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## EpiEMS (Jan 9, 2013)

schulz said:


> Yes I am looking into MPH, among others at the moment. I still have 3 semesters until my undergraduate is done though. When I say "looking into it" I mean fiddling around with the idea



Me too. Only have one more semester of undergrad, but I'm fiddling around with the idea -- just gotta do some more work and get some more $ saved up before really going after those three post-nominal letters.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jan 9, 2013)

Ya, the biggest factor for me is that I am not ready to leave field work entirely behind just yet. I guess Ill see what happens. The good thing about the MPH is you can take a lot of tracks, its a lot broader field than most people know. There are backbone requirements that all MPH's share, such as Epidemiology. However you can tailor an MPH to disaster response, health promotion , and even Primary Health Care & Health Disparities, plus a lot more. I found all this out by contacting my local university which offers an MPH program, its on the same campus as the medical school.

Anyway I am still looking into it and what opportunities it could offer for some one interested in staying involved with EMS.


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## blindsideflank (Jan 9, 2013)

This attitude:


NYMedic828 said:


> If I am going to obtain a masters, I am not going to work EMS as my primary career.
> 
> Plenty of guys work EMS as a side gig because they enjoy it but if I am going through the trouble of a masters, it will be for a title above paramedic. A high school diploma doesn't get me further than the next guy in EMS land.



contributes to this:



WTEngel said:


> A track for folks interested in education is important for the future of our profession also. un-educated paramedics doing initial education for soon to be un-educated paramedics has not done anything for the past 30 years in our profession, and it will be the end of us if we continue it for 30 years. EMS simply can not keep pace with the changing technology and science if our educators are themselves under educated.
> 
> Finally, having management with professional, post graduate level education is crucial for the longevity of our profession. Under educated managers simply don't seem to manage for the long term, and all to often seem to be the result of the good ol' boy system, and are subject to power trips etc. I am not saying this does not happen with post graduate trained folks, but it would go a long way to help reduce these situations.


 very well said WTEngel


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