# Emergency services see red over traffic tickets



## ffemt8978 (May 25, 2009)

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Emerge...tickets+from+light+cameras/1626536/story.html


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## JPINFV (May 25, 2009)

I'm torn. On one hand, I can definately see the argument that if the intersection is clear, a properly executed rolling stop (note: I am a licensed California driver, therefore I'm licensed to make "California Stops." Right? It is called a "California stop" for a reason!) is safe. The problem is that you will get that one moron who thinks that slowing down to 20 MPH and tapping the break is adequate and will cause an accident. Therefore, the law get to be applied to everyone or no one at all. 

Since it looks like common knowledge in the response community there that the law states you can go through a red after a complete stop, then stop whining nancy boys and drive properly. Especially that idiot at the end who's driving the neonate team at a speed where the options are either a hard stop or run the light.


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## daedalus (May 25, 2009)

Question:

Fines are paid to the city, where wouldn't they just go back into the service's operating budgets?

Question:

Why would the city want to fine themselves?


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## JPINFV (May 25, 2009)

It looks like in some cases the departments were passing the fines on to the operators.


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## daedalus (May 25, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> It looks like in some cases the departments were passing the fines on to the operators.



Ah. I would be pissed.

Sidebar, two months ago I went to court with my partner because we were given a red light camera ticket, which our company kindly forwarded to us. The ambulance was going code, and we came to a full stop. When the sheriff deputy looked at the giant high res color photograph, he marched right up to the grumpy judge and showed him the picture. I heard a very loud grumble and a "DISMISSED!".

Hehehe.


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## ffemt8978 (May 25, 2009)

The red light cameras don't care if you came to a complete stop before you proceeded through the intersection....and a lot of times they don't record it at all.  Their trigger is usually when you are in the intersection and the light is red...it doesn't matter how you got there.


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## JPINFV (May 25, 2009)

daedalus said:


> Ah. I would be pissed.
> 
> Sidebar, two months ago I went to court with my partner because we were given a red light camera ticket, which our company kindly forwarded to us. The ambulance was going code, and we came to a full stop. When the sheriff deputy looked at the giant high res color photograph, he marched right up to the grumpy judge and showed him the picture. I heard a very loud grumble and a "DISMISSED!".
> 
> Hehehe.



Wow, who ever was supposed to be reviewing the pictures screwed up on that one (note for outsiders: All red light cam pictures in California are required to be reviewed before being issued because of issues like this).


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## JPINFV (May 25, 2009)

ffemt8978 said:


> The red light cameras don't care if you came to a complete stop before you proceeded through the intersection....and a lot of times they don't record it at all.  Their trigger is usually when you are in the intersection and the light is red...it doesn't matter how you got there.



It looks like their red light cameras are triggered differently.



> Sensors embedded in the road at red-light camera intersections trigger the cameras when a *vehicle fails to stop at the white stop line and enters the intersection above a certain speed, believed to be 20 to 25 km/h.*


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## Sasha (May 25, 2009)

daedalus said:


> Ah. I would be pissed.



In the case of the police escort waving the ambulance through, I'd be ticked off too.

But otherwise if they passed the ticket on to the operator, then good. The operator is the one who broke the law and failed to show due regard and all that yadda yadda they went over in EVOC. Don't want to pay a ticket? Follow the rules and laws. Driving an ambulance only gives you permission to proceed once stopping, not to blow through it, or slow down, then proceed.


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## silver (May 25, 2009)

hmm one city budget to another city budget. I love politics!

I am not really sure how they can tell if you made a complete stop though. For in New York City, it takes a picture at the start of the light, and then again a second or two later. If you are over the line, or in the intersection you get the ticket. It seems impossible to tell then.
I know we have some Manahattan and bronx EMTs and paramedics that might be able to clarify on that.


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## JPINFV (May 25, 2009)

Again, not knowing their setup, in California it takes a video of the infraction, so it can tell, for example, if a car is trying to get out of the way of an ambulance.


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## amberdt03 (May 25, 2009)

ffemt8978 said:


> The red light cameras don't care if you came to a complete stop before you proceeded through the intersection....and a lot of times they don't record it at all.  Their trigger is usually when you are in the intersection and the light is red...it doesn't matter how you got there.



we have the same problem here in texas. we are allowed to turn right on red and it tickets you even if you come to a complete stop and then make the turn.


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## daedalus (May 25, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> Again, not knowing their setup, in California it takes a video of the infraction, so it can tell, for example, if a car is trying to get out of the way of an ambulance.



The funny thing is, in the red light camera court, LA sheriff deputies get to do the prosecuting in lieu of a city attorney. When they saw the picture, they told us that a private company actually reviews the pictures, and that they have had things like this happen before.

I still kind of get worked up about it.


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## JPINFV (May 25, 2009)

daedalus said:


> When they saw the picture, they told us that a private company actually reviews the pictures, and that they have had things like this happen before.
> 
> I still kind of get worked up about it.




Wow, then all of those tickets are illegal anyways.



> The San Diego experience led to changes in the law. The changes came via Assembly Bill 1022 by Assemblywoman Jenny Oropeza, D-Carson. It became law January 1, 2004.
> The law:
> ...
> Prohibits camera corporations from reviewing and approving tickets.


http://www.ocgrandjury.org/pdfs/redlight.pdf
page 3.


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## daedalus (May 25, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> Wow, then all of those tickets are illegal anyways.
> 
> 
> http://www.ocgrandjury.org/pdfs/redlight.pdf
> page 3.



Corruption and greed. The camera companies bring in revenue to themselves and the city. Trust me I want these cameras made completely illegal.


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## nibejeebies (May 26, 2009)

we have the Redlight cams here in Knoxville as well.  They are triggered any time there is a vehicle  in the intersection when the light is red (sensors just past the white stop line) and we have been told that If we get a ticket from the cams we are responsible for said ticket.  

There is a staff of 5 Civilians that reviews each photo and they have been instructed (from what we are told) that if it is an emergency vehicle look closely to see if the lights are on.  If they are do not issue the ticket.


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## firecoins (May 26, 2009)

Red light cameras in Rockland County, start flashing when the light turns red every few seconds.  It is not like the described camers in Orange County, CA.


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## Code 3 (May 26, 2009)

No one has an Opticon in their rig to avoid this?


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## JPINFV (May 26, 2009)

Not all of the intersections have Opticon and not all ambulances (especially IFT companies) have, or really need, Opticon. In regards to the intersections, I'm not 100% sure if any of the intersections are Opticon equiped in So Cal. Most intersections have what appear to be sensors, but they don't have the strobe indicating control of the intersection.


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## Hockey (May 26, 2009)

Red light cameras are nothing but revune generators.  Ask most any cop, and they agree.


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## firecoins (May 26, 2009)

I would say most minor violations despite how they are given are revenue generators.  Of course a RLC doesn't need brakes vacations, a salary or benefits.


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## hotzelj (Jun 7, 2009)

I worked for a Wisconsin police deprtament, getting my LE degree right now, and am in EMT School. Very, very, very often the police are going 5-10 over the limit on routine driving - just like most civilian drivers. If we have a priority, we go fast. As Fire, EMS, and Police are all a part of Emergency Response, we should work together. That being said, a administrative action should be done if state policies are violated, a ticket if a major safety violation occurrs, but otherwise, we're all doing what needs to be done.

If only the EMS had legal powers (dream bubbles....): Ah yes, a cop is in a HSP (high-speed pursuit) and gets out with adren-o pumping, sky high BP and heart rate, and the EMS show up and ticket him for working in an physiologically danagerous manner. Who knows, he might have beaten the guy up. Lucky for the cop the EMS was there to prevent it.


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