# NYC EMTs leave paramedics on scene and only get a slap on the wrist.



## JPINFV (Apr 25, 2008)

Sniped from another forum:


> *FDNY medics rapped in boy's death*
> [Boy found blue by parents after choking on a rubber ball, parents called 911]
> ...
> The FDNY team - emergency medical technicians trained in basic life support - were first to answer the 911 call. The EMTs bundled Joshua into their ambulance and asked over the radio when a second crew - paramedics trained in advanced lifesaving techniques - would arrive. The answer was in a minute.
> ...



Ok, besides the confusion of calling all of EMS "medics" (which was decently covered in the article anyways), I'm finding it hard to believe that the only thing the EMT-Bs are getting is a little bit of retraining. What exactly is there to retrain anyways? Don't leave if the paramedics are a minute out? Unlike Third Watch, banging on the back window isn't a sign to start the transport?


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## firecoins (Apr 25, 2008)

the "retraining" is to say the FDNY did something.


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## Jon (Apr 26, 2008)

The article is HERE:
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2008/04/24/2008-04-24_fdny_medics_rapped_in_boys_death-3.html

Wow... this is crazy. This seems to have been just this week (the news article is from Thursday). Since it wasn't that long ago... I'm sure that there is going to be more to this story that comes out.


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## firecoins (Apr 26, 2008)

I do my ALS rotations on an ambulance run by a private hospital. We work with FDNY EMTs all the time.   I have heard stories of such a rivalry between but never seen it personally.  Every call seemed to go rather smooth.  



> FDNY protocol requires EMTs to give way to paramedics at a scene, according to documents provided to The News.


FDNY protocols require not to delay transport for ALS units.   I wonder if the driver thought the someone knocking was a signal to go.  Very possible.  In NYC, many serious calls come in BLS because hospitals can be quite close.


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## JPINFV (Apr 26, 2008)

firecoins said:


> FDNY protocols require not to delay transport for ALS units.   I wonder if the driver thought the someone knocking was a signal to go.  Very possible.  In NYC, many serious calls come in BLS because hospitals can be quite close.


That may be true, but there needs to be a little common sense applied here. If ALS was 5 minutes out, I could see starting transport. It would probably be less time overall to just sit on scene for the 60 or so seconds.


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## firecoins (Apr 26, 2008)

JPINFV said:


> That may be true, but there needs to be a little common sense applied here. If ALS was 5 minutes out, I could see starting transport. It would probably be less time overall to just sit on scene for the 60 or so seconds.



If the driver mistook the knocking for the person in the back to mean lets go and didn''t realize it was the medics, it would be a very easy mistake to make.


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## Ops Paramedic (May 5, 2008)

Unfortunetly for the crews transporting the outcome was negative, hence i am leaning to a more strict investigation and a similar response there off.  Once again it shows how important communication is.  The crew were communicated to that the ALS is a minute away.  When a ALS arrived, it needed to be communicated to the crew driving the vehicle to stop.  May be the banging on the door was ment as such, but did not have the desired effect, then try something else...

As for the "we'll never know" from the article referering to wheather the kid died before the crews got there or during there treatment, is that not why we have pathologists??


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## LE-EMT (May 16, 2008)

I want to hear the emt's and LT's side of this.  I would also like to know when it became the job of the media to report CRAP????  It is unfortunate that the boy passed.  Maybe its just the LEO in me but there are a lot of unanswered questions in my mind.  I refuse to place blame on anyone until I have all the facts...
First of all why was this boy taking a potential choking hazard to bed with him.  Isn't that parenting 101?! 
Was it really rivalry??  Was It a case of miscommunication?  I love how the News paper repeatedly said " sources said"  who is your source????? why are they just a source why can't they say who they are??  Brings questions to mind of the validity of what this "source" had to say.  Its propaganda..... Why does everyone believe everything they read.  It is supposed to be written from an objective point of view but it is riddled with opinions and ONE SIDED opinions at that.  
I am not saying they didn't do wrong But I am saying maybe we should investigate thoroughly before we publicly chastise these people.


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## firecoins (May 16, 2008)

NYC system has alot beurocratic crap.  And the media usually is wrong. Give them the benefit of the doubt.


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## JPINFV (May 16, 2008)

LE-EMT said:


> I want to hear the emt's and LT's side of this.  I would also like to know when it became the job of the media to report CRAP????


http://www.jibjab.com/originals/what_we_call_the_news

A patient dieing because of what could be characterized as a feud is definitely more news worthy than a lot of other things that gets put into the news. 


> It is unfortunate that the boy passed.  Maybe its just the LEO in me but there are a lot of unanswered questions in my mind.  I refuse to place blame on anyone until I have all the facts...
> First of all why was this boy taking a potential choking hazard to bed with him.  Isn't that parenting 101?!


Neither here nor there though. What caused the call has little bearing on what happened during the call. Yes, chocking hazards are parenting 101, but not leaving the paramedics in a trail of dust is EMT 101. 



> Was it really rivalry??  Was It a case of miscommunication?  I love how the News paper repeatedly said " sources said"  who is your source????? why are they just a source why can't they say who they are??


I don't know, being under threat of termination tends to get people to shut up really quickly. Would you rather not have an incident like this be questioned? What about political scandals that break because of confidential sources?



> Brings questions to mind of the validity of what this "source" had to say.  Its propaganda..... Why does everyone believe everything they read.  It is supposed to be written from an objective point of view but it is riddled with opinions and ONE SIDED opinions at that.


 So a FDNY spokeshole saying "We didn't do anything wrong!" is somehow crediable? Remember this guy? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. Yea, agency spokesholes (people from So. Cal. might get the spokeshole reference) are non-biased sources of information. Lawyers don't lie either. 



> I am not saying they didn't do wrong But I am saying maybe we should investigate thoroughly before we publicly chastise these people.



2 question for the Basics. Did you or did you not leave the scene after being informed that paramedics were a minute away? Answer truthfully, as I'm sure that the communications are recorded. Did you or did you not leave the scene when someone knocked on your back door?


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## LE-EMT (May 16, 2008)

"2 question for the Basics. Did you or did you not leave the scene after being informed that paramedics were a minute away? Answer truthfully, as I'm sure that the communications are recorded. Did you or did you not leave the scene when someone knocked on your back door?"

Pretty sure those two questions are Pointless as It is A documented that they did leave the scene by hmmmm arriving at the hospital with the patient.... That pretty much answers those questions for me beyond a shadow of a doubt.  
My friend are you a lawyer??? then lets not try and act like one.  Watching Law and Order doesn't make you an expert on Law or the practices.  

And no I am not trying to take the blame from the EMT's and put it on the parents.  I am merely making a point.  That point being Not all blame is placeable.  

You also act as though what the paper told you is written in stone and should be taken as GOD's word.  Everyone has opinions and no matter how objectively you attempt to write or tell a story you express an opinion.  Especially when you are quoting a source.  That source has an opinion and you have an opinion on what that source said.  
What I want are the facts.  How many sources did the paper talk to??? In any investigation ( In LE) we talk to as many people as possible we get their take on the events that happened and then combine them and reasonably deduct what actually happened.  and no not every one tells the truth.  actually I can almost guaranty you that every one I talk to on a scene is lying to me at one point or another.  There is more to this story... If in fact it was something as stupid as a petty rivalry then they should burn at the stake.  but I prefer to give them the benifit of the doubt........Or INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY...


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## BossyCow (May 16, 2008)

My agency rendezvous with ALS all the time, and there is a very clear procedure followed. Upon responding to our call for ALS support, the responding unit switches to our radio frequency. They get a short report from us on the condition of the patient, CPR in progress, or 'obstructed airway' would definitely have been in my short report to the medics. Then we stay in radio contact with the medics until we meet and transfer care. We generally, by radio and through the drivers of our rigs, know where we are in relation to each other geographically and where and aprox. when we are going to meet. 

When the ALS unit in this case arrived on scene, that should have been communicated on the radio (and recorded by dispatch) so the excuse of the EMT possibly not knowing it was them knocking goes out the window. Does the ALS unit have the capablity of hearing the radio transmission from the BLS unit saying they were leaving the scene? If they had, a simple.. "Aid4, wait one, ALS is on scene and will assume pt care" would have worked.


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## firecoins (May 16, 2008)

Recently I did a medic rotation in the ICU.  A hockey player from the NHL got wheeled in a stretcher at 12:30am. The hockey player collided with another player lacerating his spleen. This occured in the first period. He played the 2 other periods in pain. After the game, the team doctor drove the patient to the hospital directly from the arena.  The patient waled to and from the car, was a/o x 3 and was i some distress. He was admitted and brought up to the ICU unit.

The next day, it was reported the same player was brought to the hospital by ambulance, in cardiac arrest, after collapsing at his apartment at 3am. The only thing the article got right was the player's name and the hospital's name.  Everything else was wrong.  It quoted unnamed hospital sources.  There's no way anyone affiliated with the hospital was the unnamed source.


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## LE-EMT (May 17, 2008)

Thank you FIRECOINS..........this is my point exactly.  Papers eff up the facts all the time.  They are generally writing solely on what some "source" told them.  I could be the source and never have been anywhere near the incident at the time it happened.  Especially if hmmmm lets say I am a disgruntled Medic Because some stupid EMTB just drove away from me for no "apparent" reason...... That would be a good reason not to name myself as the source.


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## WuLabsWuTecH (May 22, 2008)

I like the theory that the driver mistook the knocking for "let's go!"  Its very plausible that he thought knocking was from the back meaning "We can't wait any longer, we gotta go now!"

At the same time though, wouldn't the guy in back be able to hear that the knocking wasn't him and communicate to the driver to stop?  And all of this is assumming that no one's radio was working...


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## bonedog (May 23, 2008)

Maybe ALS weren't using their lights and siren's as they approached the bls unit....


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## firecoins (May 23, 2008)

In NYC there are lots of vehicles that pass doing lights and sirens going to different incidents in the same neighborhoods. Does this mean the EMTs didn't do what they are accused of? No but it isn't as simple as another emergency vehicle with lights and sirens in the same vicinity.


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## Ridryder911 (May 23, 2008)

WuLabsWuTecH said:


> I like the theory that the driver mistook the knocking for "let's go!"  Its very plausible that he thought knocking was from the back meaning "We can't wait any longer, we gotta go now!"
> 
> At the same time though, wouldn't the guy in back be able to hear that the knocking wasn't him and communicate to the driver to stop?  And all of this is assumming that no one's radio was working...



Here's a novel idea! Ir's called paying attention on what the he*l is going on. The EVO and EMT in the back should as well inform if and when they are ready to transport. Does the driver not look in the back and mirror to see or communicate? One just starts driving before they know they are prepared.. negligible. Sorry, no excuse upon the EMT's. They did not pay attention and did not handle the situation appropriately, another cluster ****!

R/r 911


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