# Stab Vests and other protective gear...?



## OreoThief (Nov 18, 2007)

In EMT school, during my clinical rotation, my medic wore a stab vest. All the time, every time. I asked her why, and all she would tell me is that she had a close call, and will never get close again.

I am curious, who here wears a stab vest or bullet proof vest regularly, and what type of service do you work for?


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## Ridryder911 (Nov 19, 2007)

Personally, I think it is all dependent upon where you work. The type of calls one is routinely sees, etc. I know some areas of the nation, I would demand to wear one, I even wore one in a Trauma Center where I worked (as others suggested to). Yet, in my area, no one wears one. 

R/r 911


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## OreoThief (Nov 19, 2007)

If so, without spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars, would I stab vest be better, or a ballistic vest? I've heard that ballistics won't cover stabs, and obviously vice versa. Maybe I've heard wrong.... :unsure:


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## firecoins (Nov 19, 2007)

Its true.  Its one or the other.

The only people in my region wearing them work in tough NYC, Jersey City or Newark neighborhoods.  Its usually bullet proof vests.  Some choose not to wear them.  Don't hear of anyone getting shot or stabbed. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  Just don't hear about it.


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## medicdan (Nov 19, 2007)

At MDA, the medic chair in the back of the ambulance wears two bulletproof vests everyday, but they are only utilized at Terrorist attacks, because of the high probability of secondary attacks.
With the exception of Lod (characterized as the Harlem of Israel, and home to the largest international airport), and military injuries, there are very few, if any GSWs or stabbings. A much bigger daily threat here is car accidents. Today alone I went to four scenes, and there were six deaths in my region. We do have reflective vests, and wear them at all MVAs. 
On a related issue, many of the drivers carry a gun at all times-- it is not seen as abnormal in Israel, where on every street corner you see a soldier carrying a semi-automatic weapon, waiting for a bus.


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## JJR512 (Nov 19, 2007)

OreoThief said:


> If so, without spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars, would I stab vest be better, or a ballistic vest? I've heard that ballistics won't cover stabs, and obviously vice versa. Maybe I've heard wrong.... :unsure:


As *firecoins* responded, you heard correctly that a vest features one type of protection or the other. However, a ballistic vest does _can_ offer stab resistance over the breast area if it features a trauma plate as extra protection for the heart. The trauma plate is basically a hard plate that slips into a pocket over the breast area. The rest of the protected area is still, of course, not protected from stabbing.

I believe there is a type of vest that offers both forms of protection; I'm not sure if it was offered by only one brand, or if it was a prototype, but I know I've seen something about it somewhere. I'll let you know if I can find it.


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## OreoThief (Nov 19, 2007)

I'm surprised there aren't more replies to this thread. I was hoping for some more feedback, really. 

Any chance I can request this from my employer, or do I need to just deal with it and purchase one, if I truly want one. Rid had mentioned that he would "demand" one, but as a newbie, just don't think I have that much say.

Anyone?


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## eggshen (Nov 19, 2007)

I can't recall the manufacturer but someone makes a vest that covers both. What I do recall is that you will spend many monies on it. That being said I would rather have a ballistic vest on if I get shanked than my uniform shirt only. A lot of the folks 'round here wear ballistic vests. It never really gripped me all that much. The one time I almost took a round a vest would not have made a difference. I own three of them and can just never seem to complete the shift wearing one. 

Depending on where you work I would spring for one and give it shot (no pun intended). If you can manage it great. If not...well now you can look cool for girls, or boys.

Egg


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## eggshen (Nov 19, 2007)

We posted at the same time so I'll get to the second part.

My employer gives us several hundred dollars each year for a uniform allowance. That cash can be put towards a vest. As far as demanding one? Good luck, at least here. I would check with your service and their uniform supplier for the rest. 

Egg


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## OreoThief (Nov 19, 2007)

Our clothing allowance is about $180, I believe. I'll have to survive a few years to save up for it.


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## r6yr (Nov 19, 2007)

this is a complete shock to me. why wear bullet proof vests? who is shooting you? do you guys work in hard neighboorhoods or is this just everywhere? i live in a relatively nice place and i have never seen any one wearing a bulletproof vest. i of course am completely new to all of this and know nothing at all about most of the things your talking about. ill be starting school soon and this kind of just shocks me...


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## OreoThief (Nov 19, 2007)

Sorry, we're not always in the greatest of situations. And drugs and alcohol.... heck, even diabetes can do some weird things to you.  Better to be safe than sorry, especially when I have 4 kids to come home to.


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## jordanfstop (Nov 19, 2007)

r6yr said:


> this is a complete shock to me. why wear bullet proof vests? who is shooting you? do you guys work in hard neighboorhoods or is this just everywhere? i live in a relatively nice place and i have never seen any one wearing a bulletproof vest. i of course am completely new to all of this and know nothing at all about most of the things your talking about. ill be starting school soon and this kind of just shocks me...



all depends on the neighborhood. i know fdny bronx guys who wear one. some people will shoot at you because you're trying to help the person that they just shot. my corps carries vests on our ambulances for the 'just-in-case' moments. my corps deals with a fairly large drug/crime area. in the past few years it's gone down a bit, but we still have the occasional shooting, stabbing, or severe assault. also, i know that my lt has been shot at once.


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## eggshen (Nov 19, 2007)

Our particular case is this. FD is loved by everyone regardless. Total PR machine that lot. One time is hated by nearly everyone. We (paramedics) are a step above them. Even though we are there to help there is a large portion of the population that sees us as the aggressor. This portion of the population has a tendancy to use violence as a problem solving tool. We are the perceived problem from time to time. Welcome to the city.

Egg


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## JJR512 (Nov 20, 2007)

And that is part of the reason why some of my friends at work say EMS workers should go back to the Good Humor-type uniforms (white pants and shirts). FD uniforms now look so much like PD uniforms with dark blue pants, light blue shirts, silver badges, shoulder patches, radios, belts with stuff hanging off. Even if that's not what the local PD actually wears--brown and tan, black and white, other combinations worn by various PDs--the modern FD uniform looks so much like a cop to someone who is already half crazy to begin with, it's no wonder they don't know who they're shooting at.

I wonder...Do you think that if EMS/FD looked so obviously different from the PD (like with all-white uniforms) that the incidences of shootings at EMS/FD would go down, because the shooters intend to be targetting only cops? Or would it make no difference because the shooters don't care who they're shooting?


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## firecoins (Nov 20, 2007)

jordanfstop said:


> all depends on the neighborhood. i know fdny bronx guys who wear one. some people will shoot at you because you're trying to help the person that they just shot. my corps carries vests on our ambulances for the 'just-in-case' moments. my corps deals with a fairly large drug/crime area. in the past few years it's gone down a bit, but we still have the occasional shooting, stabbing, or severe assault. also, i know that my lt has been shot at once.



you saw my thread about the North Rockland stabbing.  We just take our time to the cops get there.


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## kashton (Nov 28, 2007)

Good question! I have the same one. I am considering buying a very light and cool bulletproof vest to wear under my uniform. It can't hurt to wear one anyways. It is true that many EMS uniforms looks similar to polive uniforms and could easily be mistaken by a disgruntled person. :blink:


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## katgrl2003 (Nov 28, 2007)

OreoThief said:


> Our clothing allowance is about $180, I believe. I'll have to survive a few years to save up for it.



Must be nice!  The only things our company provides is 5 work shirts per year (which I was supposed to get six months ago<_<) and a coat.

I guess I really haven't thought about vests since I work for a private service.  We very rarely get 911 rollovers, and even then cops and/or fire are already on scene.  I can't think of a single person I work with that has a vest.  Sheesh, I live a sheltered life!

-Kat


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## weretiger13 (Dec 2, 2007)

*Summertime*

In my area, there are a number of people who wear a bulletproof vest in the summer.  They tend to take them off in the winter, since there are fewer shootings then.  It really depends on the number and severity of the riots that are happening.

Weretiger


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## SC Bird (Dec 2, 2007)

We talked about this the other day in class after going over hostile situations (which will never happen because the "scene isn't safe")....but regardless...

I am yet to see an EMT in my city wearing a stab vest or bulletproof vest....not saying that there is no need because there is a good bit of violence around the area, but I think it is just pushed to the side and viewed as unneccesary.

-Matt


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## Arkymedic (Dec 2, 2007)

kashton said:


> Good question! I have the same one. I am considering buying a very light and cool bulletproof vest to wear under my uniform. It can't hurt to wear one anyways. It is true that many EMS uniforms looks similar to polive uniforms and could easily be mistaken by a disgruntled person. :blink:



There is no such thing as a light and cool vest lol especially if you are wearing it for 12-24 hrs


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## Arkymedic (Dec 2, 2007)

JJR512 said:


> And that is part of the reason why some of my friends at work say EMS workers should go back to the Good Humor-type uniforms (white pants and shirts). FD uniforms now look so much like PD uniforms with dark blue pants, light blue shirts, silver badges, shoulder patches, radios, belts with stuff hanging off. Even if that's not what the local PD actually wears--brown and tan, black and white, other combinations worn by various PDs--the modern FD uniform looks so much like a cop to someone who is already half crazy to begin with, it's no wonder they don't know who they're shooting at.
> 
> I wonder...Do you think that if EMS/FD looked so obviously different from the PD (like with all-white uniforms) that the incidences of shootings at EMS/FD would go down, because the shooters intend to be targetting only cops? Or would it make no difference because the shooters don't care who they're shooting?



We wear white uniform shirts and black pants at my service. I don't think it will make any difference. 

Anyone recall Kansas City in 2004? A home owner set a fire and ambushed fire and ems with sniper fire. http://publicsafety.com/article/article.jsp?id=1030&siteSection=5

Then there is this one http://www.emtcity.com/phpBB2/link....al.go.com/wabc/story?section=local&id=5792458

 An EMT was ambushed at the hospital in Tulsa and stabbed when he did not have drug keys. 
TULSA, Okla. (AP) -- A paramedic was hospitalized in intensive care after being attacked outside an Oologah ambulance station early Monday, police said. Emily O'Bannion, 24, was found by her partner about 1:30 a.m. suffering from a beating and what appeared to be knife wounds, officers said. 



Then there is one hell of a scary situation in this one: Detroit Teen Murdered as Paramedics Give Aid for Gunshots

Updated: 06-07-2005 03:23:40 PM

ASSOCIATED PRESS

DETROIT (AP) -- A masked man ordered paramedics to step away from a teenager who lay bleeding on a stretcher from bullet wounds, then killed him with a shotgun blast to the head, authorities said. 

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/saskatchewan/story/2005/12/30/emt-knife051230.html
LANDIS, SK - A Good Samaritan who tried help an injured woman on the highway Thursday was forced to flee after someone pulled a hunting knife on him, the RCMP says. The man was a volunteer firefighter and emergency medical technician who stopped on Hwy 14, just east of Landis, when he saw a pickup truck parked at an angle at the side of the road. He thought the people inside might have been in an accident and when he got to the truck he found a woman bleeding from a cut on her face. At that point, an argument broke out between the male driver of the truck and the woman with the cut. The driver reached under the seat and pulled out what police described as a chrome hunting knife with a six-inch blade....

SASKATOON, SK - Paramedics in Saskatoon have started wearing bulletproof vests as the number of incidents of violence against them increases. "We've had paramedics who've been physically assaulted. They've been punched. We've had a gun pulled in the past. There's lots of incidents where knives are pulled or needles," said MD Ambulance spokesperson Troy Davies. As recently as two weeks ago, paramedics were called to a home during the evening. When they arrived on the doorstep of the house, a man armed with a hockey stick opened the door. "He was running after them. If they had been hit in the back with the stick or a bat, they wouldn't feel it because of the plates," said Davies.

 Paramedic Assaulted On Squad Run
Man Repeatedly Punched In Face
February 3, 2005
HAMILTON, Ohio -- Officials reported that a paramedic was injured while helping a patient Wednesday. 

Look at Columbine and the secondary devices they planned to take out emergency services. 

Oklahoma City had so many assaults on EMSA medics that Fox 25 KOKH did a special on it. 

and the list goes on and on and on...think about all the psychs, spitters, biters, etc as well.

Does anybody truly think someone gives a f*** whether they hurt us or not?


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## Epi-do (Dec 2, 2007)

SC Bird said:


> We talked about this the other day in class after going over hostile situations (which will never happen because the "scene isn't safe")....but regardless...



Maybe I am just missing the sarcasm in this since I am taking a break from studying for a final tomorrow, but are you serious?  Anyone who has been doing this for very long at all can tell you that not all scenes remain "safe" after your arrival.  I almost guarentee that anyone who has been around the block can tell you at least one, if not several, stories of runs that went bad from a scene safety perspective.

While we all do our best to be aware of our surroundings and make sure ourselves and everyone we work with goes home at the end of the day, patients, families, and bystanders can be unpredictable and there are times when everything goes to hell in a handbasket.

Ok, off the soapbox now.  Sorry.

As for the original question, no one that I currently work with wears any sort of vest.  One of the previous services I worked for would provide you with one if you requested it, but you then had to be 100% compliant with wearing it, or they would try to refuse to accept responsibility for any medical care that may be required if you were to suffer an injury the vest would have prevented.


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## TransportJockey (Dec 3, 2007)

Epi-do said:


> Maybe I am just missing the sarcasm in this since I am taking a break from studying for a final tomorrow, but are you serious?  Anyone who has been doing this for very long at all can tell you that not all scenes remain "safe" after your arrival.  I almost guarentee that anyone who has been around the block can tell you at least one, if not several, stories of runs that went bad from a scene safety perspective.



That might be true, but if his class is anything like mine, the instructors will drill into you that you don't go into the scene until it has been deemed safe... So I can understand where he's coming from

As for the OP's question... I have seen maybe one or two AA or AFD members wear vests... but not too many. But I also don't go into the section of ABQ that they might be needed in very often, either


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## kashton (Dec 3, 2007)

Arkymedic said:


> There is no such thing as a light and cool vest lol especially if you are wearing it for 12-24 hrs



There are fairly light and cool ones:

EX:
http://www.bulletproofme.com/ProMAX_Vests.shtml#GoldFlex

probably as light and cool as you will get for a bullet proof vest


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## MrUgly (Dec 10, 2007)

When I started with my corps, I asked if I was authorized to wear one.  My Capt. looked at me like I was a complete loser, and said "Yes, if you really think you need one to be safe, feel free to wear one.  The rest of us just keep our eyes open."

I took that to mean it was frowned upon.


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## firecoins (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't wear one.  I don't think there is a need to wear one.  However that does not mean my safety will not be at risk from an unruly patient or other people who hate "authority figures".  There are plenty of nuts out there.


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## katgrl2003 (Dec 10, 2007)

firecoins said:


> There are plenty of nuts out there.



Sometimes the patients can be a little crazy too!

-Kat


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## JJR512 (Dec 11, 2007)

firecoins said:


> I don't wear one. I don't think there is a need to wear one. ...


Some might feel it is better to have one and not need one that need one and not have one.


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