# K9 sar



## bunkie (Sep 20, 2009)

Anyone do it? I'd love to pick a few brains.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Sep 21, 2009)

bunkie said:


> Anyone do it? I'd love to pick a few brains.



Maybe... :blush:

http://www.emtlife.com/album.php?albumid=71&pictureid=827

I am just getting into K9 SAR because it was one area my team is lacking in, and it combined my Emergency Services Side with my Veterinary Side.  While this is my first dog that I am training, I have worked with certified dog teams before and as far as training goes, I am training and getting dirrection from some of the more highly regarded handlers in Central California...  So I know a thing or two,but am by no means an expert... yet... ^_^


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## fiddlesticks (Sep 21, 2009)

what is a K9 sar?


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## wyoskibum (Sep 21, 2009)

My fiancee trains dogs for SAR and I have alot of experience working with SAR dogs and helping to train.  What questions do you have?


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## wyoskibum (Sep 21, 2009)

fiddlesticks said:


> what is a K9 sar?



K9 SAR = Canine Search and Rescue.  This where you train certain types of dogs to assist in search and rescue.  There a many disciplines such as Tracking/Trailing, Air Scent, Water search, Avalanche, Cadaver & Human remains detection.


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## fiddlesticks (Sep 21, 2009)

oh duh! i dont think we use them much around here just rcmp and fire maybe the cops might as well that would be a great job to train them i would love that!


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## bunkie (Sep 21, 2009)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> Maybe... :blush:
> 
> http://www.emtlife.com/album.php?albumid=71&pictureid=827
> 
> I am just getting into K9 SAR because it was one area my team is lacking in, and it combined my Emergency Services Side with my Veterinary Side.  While this is my first dog that I am training, I have worked with certified dog teams before and as far as training goes, I am training and getting dirrection from some of the more highly regarded handlers in Central California...  So I know a thing or two,but am by no means an expert... yet... ^_^





wyoskibum said:


> My fiancee trains dogs for SAR and I have alot of experience working with SAR dogs and helping to train.  What questions do you have?



I'd love to get into it. I've looked around at a few places here. My county's SAR is all volly but I'm not sure if they have/take k9's, I emailed. Then there is another county that has k9's but I'm not sure if they are volly or paid and how far they travel for their sars. Emailed them as well. :lol:

Anyway, the question is this. Can't find much on the actual training the dog for SAR, schools or what not. I have a husky/australian shepherd mix. I think she'd be great at this. She's a very fast learner and loves to work. I'm decent at training/handling animals so I'm confident we can at least do the basics beyond what she doesn't already know. I'd like to train her as SAR and volly with her in my area. So I'm just trying to find more info on the whole dog portion of it, training, etc. 

Mount- What did you do on the veterinary side? I was a tech years ago in 04 before I started having babies. I'd like to combine my two loves as well.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Sep 21, 2009)

bunkie said:


> I'd love to get into it. I've looked around at a few places here. My county's SAR is all volly but I'm not sure if they have/take k9's, I emailed. Then there is another county that has k9's but I'm not sure if they are volly or paid and how far they travel for their sars. Emailed them as well. :lol:
> 
> Anyway, the question is this. Can't find much on the actual training the dog for SAR, schools or what not. I have a husky/australian shepherd mix. I think she'd be great at this. She's a very fast learner and loves to work. I'm decent at training/handling animals so I'm confident we can at least do the basics beyond what she doesn't already know. I'd like to train her as SAR and volly with her in my area. So I'm just trying to find more info on the whole dog portion of it, training, etc.
> 
> Mount- What did you do on the veterinary side? I was a tech years ago in 04 before I started having babies. I'd like to combine my two loves as well.



First of all, 96% of all Pure-SAR in the U.S. is volly, get used to it.  The other 4% is a few national parks, the Coast Guard, and a few others.

Second, my recommendation, and the recommendation of most SAR Dog Handlers I know, is to join a SAR Team first and work wiht them for a minimum of 1 to 2 years.  The reason is that most people have little clue on what SAR is or what we really do.  I can't count the numbner of people that have joined our team and then quite 3 months latter becaseu they thought we strolled through parks and found lost kids.  (see my SAR album... we get extreme... we do everything that Fire can't or won;t do)  Second, that time allows you the oppurtunity to hone all the other skills that make a good Rescuer (navigation, search theory, tracking, communications, basic ropes, lost person profiling, etc...)

Third, the Dog side of things is a lot to take on... far more than anyone can anticipate...  I spent 3 years with my team, mulling it over, and waiting for a good set of cirrcumstances to present themselves.  Even now, after all the exposure and research I had done, I don't know why I got myself into this; it is a lot.  Your average trainer will spend anywhere from 500 to 1000 hours a year in training with the dog... THAT IS A LOT... and in addition to other SAR resposibilities it is like havine a full time job (for which we get nothing, but actually spend money and energy to be cold, wet, tired, sore, and misserable).

Fourth, I was a Vet Tech for 6 years (and Lead Tech for the last year), with a specialty in Emergency, Radiology, and Pediatrics.  At one point I had all the classes and requirements to get my RVT License (for those of you who do not know, that is the equivilent of an RN or PA, depending on who you ask).  But as of now, I am 99% sure that I am out of the Veterinary Field.

SO... my recommendation...  Get in contact with your local SAR groups and find out everything you can about what they do and how to join.  See who in the area does K9 SAR and pick their brains if you can.  Get involved in all aspects of SAR right away; don't make yourself a "I'm here only for canines" person that won't be useful for several years.  I love my dog and the training, but it does tkae a back seat to all other aspects of SAR.  Read as many books as you can on the subject, but realize that you will NEED the outside support from other handlers to make it... it is just too hard to get done on your own (possible, but REALLY not easy).  Try the books Barron's "Guide to Search and Rescue Dogs" by Angela Eaton Snovak and "Search and Rescue Dogs: Training the K9 Hero" by ARDA (America Rescue Dog Assiciation).

If you were in CA, I could get you pointed in the right dirrection now and give you a hand, but I am unsure how it is organized out there, so your best bet is to contact the local Teams and see what they can tell you and if this is gonna be for you.  Not meaning to discourage you, but you REALLY need to know what you are getting into and not just rely on what TV an precovcieved notions tell you (like in EMS).

NOW A COUPLE QUESTIONS FOR YOU:

How old is the pup?
What discipline were you planning on training in?
How much free time do you have?
Do you have solid grasp of Search Theory, Profiling, Ropes, Tracking, etc.?
Are you fit enough to do this (Wildland FF fit)?
And a few others that I can't focus on (I am still exhaused from the last call this weekend).


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## wyoskibum (Sep 21, 2009)

Like others have suggested, check with your local SAR agencies.  In my experience, the K9 teams have been separate from the Sheriff/County SAR teams.

If your serious about the K9 SAR, you should find a K9 team and apply to become a member.  Work with them and fulfill whatever requirements they have to become a member.  While you are doing that, participate in the trainings as a helper.  You will hide for the dogs, work with a certified handler/dog.  This is where you will learn how to train the dogs.  

You will need to test your existing dog to see if it is a good candidate for SAR.  Not all dogs have the drive and temperment needed to do this kind of work.  While I'm sure your dog is great, don't be suprised if it your dog isn't a good candidate.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Sep 21, 2009)

wyoskibum said:


> Like others have suggested, check with your local SAR agencies.  In my experience, the K9 teams have been separate from the Sheriff/County SAR teams.



Interesting, in CA we currently have 188 Dogs statewide that have met certification for Mutula Aid Calls.  Of those, 138 are with County Sheriff's Teams...  the rest are part of 3 private teams... and that is only because those handlers do not have real solid county wilderness teams.  That is why I suggest that the OP look into her states SAR System as every state is different.  Arround here, members of those private teams think they are all that, but I have had bad experience with their level of compatence and the fact that they think that they are IT.  The county teams tend to be better, but not always.  And county teams will push you to not be a one-hit wonder that is all about dogs.  IMAO, you NEED to have a solid education in all aspects of SAR to be worth my energy (speaking in regard to newbies that join my team).



wyoskibum said:


> If your serious about the K9 SAR, you should find a K9 team and apply to become a member.  Work with them and fulfill whatever requirements they have to become a member.  While you are doing that, participate in the trainings as a helper.  You will hide for the dogs, work with a certified handler/dog.  This is where you will learn how to train the dogs.



Bingo, I am always looking for team members with the time to help in hiding for me and helping out.  On the other hand, while team members have expressed an interest in trying their hand at handling, they never seem to have the time to help me out... if you don't have the time and enthusiasim to help out for a few hours a month, how can you hope to trai a dog for 75+ hours a month on your own?



wyoskibum said:


> You will need to test your existing dog to see if it is a good candidate for SAR.  Not all dogs have the drive and temperment needed to do this kind of work.  While I'm sure your dog is great, don't be suprised if it your dog isn't a good candidate.



That is where experienced handlers come in... they know better than you.  many are the good intentioned folks that want to do this, but few have realistic expectations.  I would guess that for every 10 dogs that start training for this, only 1 will be cut out for it.


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## wyoskibum (Sep 21, 2009)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> Interesting, in CA we currently have 188 Dogs statewide that have met certification for Mutula Aid Calls.  Of those, 138 are with County Sheriff's Teams...  the rest are part of 3 private teams... and that is only because those handlers do not have real solid county wilderness teams.  That is why I suggest that the OP look into her states SAR System as every state is different.



Well, we all know that California is its own animal in everything!  Seriously though, my experience has been in Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, and now the East coast.   We have the very dedicated, hard working folks who trained their dogs and we have the very dedicated, hard working folks who trained themselves.  It is a lot of work to try and do both.  Especially at a volunteer level.  Usually both teams would work together when necessary.



Mountain Res-Q said:


> Arround here, members of those private teams think they are all that, but I have had bad experience with their level of compatence and the fact that they think that they are IT.  The county teams tend to be better, but not always.



Yeah, you get that everywhere.  Not always the private teams either.  Here in CT, the State Police have their dogs and are hesitant to utilize the volunteer Dogs even when they have failed to find anything.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Sep 21, 2009)

wyoskibum said:


> Well, we all know that California is its own animal in everything!



LOL... granted... although when it comes to SAR (a state level division of OES, which has proven itself in regards to disaster management with Fires and Earthquakes) we have it pretty well set up in CA, including with Dogs...


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## bunkie (Sep 21, 2009)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> *First of all, 96% of all Pure-SAR in the U.S. is volly, get used to it.*  The other 4% is a few national parks, the Coast Guard, and a few others.
> 
> 
> NOW A COUPLE QUESTIONS FOR YOU:
> ...



Just to make it clear. I _want_ to volly SAR. 

1. She's four and a half. Had her since she was one. 
2. I'm not really sure. 
3. Right this minute while I'm in school not a tremendous amount but that ends in November. 
4. I'm good with some bits. Land nav, ropes, rappelling, but I don't pretend to understand every complexity of SAR or all the areas of knowledge I'd need to have. 
5. I'm extremely physically fit. 

I don't want to be "k9 specific". I was interested in SAR and even more interested in K9 SAR. So I thought I'd ask some questions and see where to go from there. There are a few certs I'm required to have before SAR in the area will touch me anyway.


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## wyoskibum (Sep 21, 2009)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> LOL... granted... although when it comes to SAR (a state level division of OES, which has proven itself in regards to disaster management with Fires and Earthquakes) we have it pretty well set up in CA, including with Dogs...



I know is a lot of the Western States, SAR is the responsibility of the County Sheriff's.  It could be hit or miss depending on the County.  Some of the Counties had their "Jeep Possies" which God help you if you needed Rescue there!   So count your blessings! ;-D

Here is our "Future SAR dog".  And our other SAR dogs.


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## Luno (Sep 21, 2009)

Hey Bunkie, don't let mtres-q get you twisted...  Most SAR groups in your area are very open to new people, and I'd go ahead and contact them if I were you...  They are probably very similar to KCSARA, (just north of ya) and always looking for help.  Some of them will even put you through any other training you will need.  Some of KCSARA will even put you through the EMT course.  I've been on the fence about working with a puppy for years, but for now, I don't have the time to dedicate to the training of a Avalanche Dog.  However when I do, it's going to be a rottweiler...   I believe BossyCow would probably have more info about that, especially SAR teams in your area.  I only work with SAR when we request SPART, and due to resources we have at hand, we don't use them very often.  We do have rescue/avalanche dog capability as well as SAR hasty teams that are internal, but that's to be expected with Ski Patrol.  Shoot out a pm to bossy, google pierce county SAR, and if you have further questions, I might know some people down there.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Sep 21, 2009)

bunkie said:


> Just to make it clear. I _want_ to volly SAR.
> 
> 1. She's four and a half. Had her since she was one.
> 2. I'm not really sure.
> ...



1.  Honestly, probably too old.  It takes a good 18 months (minimum) to get a dog up to speed and certified to actually work.  By then she will be 6, with how many good years left to be worked?  Also, SAR dogs ARE NOT pets, which is what she is to you and has been... SAR dogs are working dogs, a tool, much loved (trust me), but not a pet...  Not saying you shouldn't get into SAR, but enter this with a realistic viewpoint and realize that while SAR and K9s might be for you, maybe it won;t be for your pup.

2.  That is an example of really getting involved with local SAR Teams and Dog Teams comes in handy... 

3.  Long-time handlers have warned me that while SAR can be a hobby, K9 SAR is a lifestyle.  It tends to be a large part of your life... make sure you have the time...

4.  I don;t know how it is in your area, but the reason for the 1 to 2 years with a SAR Team pre-canine is so that you are 100% dialed in to all aspects of SAR... and there are a lot...  but as long as you are willing to learn, it is easy to learn and FUN... 

5.  Great.. probably better shape than me (not saying a lot, LOL)... but as our good friend LucidResq said once, "You think you are in good shape... think again."  Conditionng and Endurance are a must...

Once, again, not to discourage you (I would never do that to someone with enough charecture to even think about getting invovled in a field where you will be cold, wet, hungrey, exhausted, and sore just to volunteer to save a life), but being good at SAR is not easy, and Canines are perhaps the most challenging and time consuming aspects of it...  and I am crazy for trying it, LOL...  but the reality of SAR is hard to convey, which is why it is best to dig right in and, like you are doing (sounds like), seeking out local assistance and dirrection...

But, I love SAR and love to tlak about it... and am always willing to answer questions...  and a thread for you to review...

http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=12602


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## Mountain Res-Q (Sep 21, 2009)

wyoskibum said:


> I know is a lot of the Western States, SAR is the responsibility of the County Sheriff's.  It could be hit or miss depending on the County.  Some of the Counties had their "Jeep Possies" which God help you if you needed Rescue there!   So count your blessings! ;-D
> 
> Here is our "Future SAR dog".  And our other SAR dogs.



Yep, we have had experience with those Jeep Posses, which are pretty much no more in California, but we have had experience with those teams in nevada that have nothing but dozens of Jeeps and Quad to offer in mutual AId, but no Trackers, Sign Cutters, Rope Techs, Medics, SRT's, Dogs, etc...  LOL

Nice pups... gotta love 'em... Area Search Dogs?



Luno said:


> Hey Bunkie, don't let mtres-q get you twisted...



Excuse me?  Where was I twisting anything... I am just be realistic when it comes to SAR, which is hard enough without talking baout one of the hardest parts of SAR, canines... and nothing I said was false when it comes to SAR, especially in the Western States, and particularly in California, whihc is why I made it clear that I have no clue how things are organized in her area...  but I do know a think or two about Extreme Wilderness SAR and Dog Teams, but if you have better insight, by all means, share...


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## LucidResq (Sep 21, 2009)

Whoo hoo I've been quoted. Sweet. 

Anyways, I've been doing SAR for 2 1/2 - 3 yrs. I do not personally work with dogs, but of course have encountered them and their handlers on many many searches. 

I've been told that it's not only time-consuming, but expensive. 

Also, I know if I'm placed on a team with a dog, I will be running like hell. Good ol' SAR is often exhausting, but people who go out on a dog team will come back twice as tired as everyone else.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Sep 21, 2009)

LucidResq said:


> *Whoo hoo I've been quoted. Sweet. *
> 
> Anyways, I've been doing SAR for 2 1/2 - 3 yrs. I do not personally work with dogs, but of course have encountered them and their handlers on many many searches.
> 
> ...



Well, you finally said something worth quoting...   LOL... but really, everything you said here and on that previous thread was 100% true... and despite the fact that you have said nothing different from me in regards to SAR, your statements were not at all "twisted" like what I said...


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## Luno (Sep 21, 2009)

*Are you serious?*



Mountain Res-Q said:


> Well, you finally said something worth quoting...   LOL... but really, everything you said here and on that previous thread was 100% true... and despite the fact that you have said nothing different from me in regards to SAR, your statements were not at all "twisted" like what I said...



Stand down "SAR CZAR."  Had you read what I wrote, you would realize that I never said you "twisted" anything.  If you need clarification, feel free to PM me.


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## LucidResq (Sep 21, 2009)

PS: Please do not let us turn you away from SAR or make you think it's horrible. We obviously do it for free for a reason. I absolutely love it. It's challenging, rewarding, and I've made a second family through it. There's nothing like getting into the great outdoors with a bunch of the best buddies you'll ever have, doing a little manual labor for a good cause. 

And NOTHING beats the warm fuzzies you get from being a part of taking someone from being cold, lost, scared, hurt to warm safety and reuniting them with family who thought their loved one might be dead.


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## wyoskibum (Sep 21, 2009)

bunkie said:


> I don't want to be "k9 specific". I was interested in SAR and even more interested in K9 SAR.



My suggestion would be for you to learn how to crawl before you walk so to speak.  I would suggest that  you should concentrate on your skills before tackling trying to train a dog.  

I was on a Wilderness SAR team in the Rockies for 16 years before moving to the East Coast.  I feel like I still have lots to learn about SAR.

Just my opinion, but I know what a commitment it is to do either one.  Unless you don't want any kind of life outside of SAR.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Sep 21, 2009)

LucidResq said:


> PS: Please do not let us turn you away from SAR or make you think it's horrible.



It is horrible... It is cold, it is wet, it is tiring, it is exhausting, it is backbreaking... and IT IS GREAT... for all the reasons you listed and the fact that anyone willing to subject themselves to SAR is Clinically INSANE... BWAHAHAHAHAHA.... :wacko:

But seriously, Lucid is 110% right (for the second time today, I mean this year ^_^), SAR is worth it as long as you are reasdy for the pain and the FUN!!!  It is worth it in the personal satisfaction you get...



wyoskibum said:


> Unless you don't want any kind of life outside of SAR.



THERE IS NO LIFE OUTSIDE SAR!!!    LOL


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## Miss Xina (Oct 20, 2009)

bunkie said:


> Anyone do it? I'd love to pick a few brains.



I am so keen to get into this field, and I'm just waiting to hear about the Wilderness training that one of the Fire Chiefs is planning although I do find that it's not advertised anywhere. It seems to just be those within the EMS community that ever hear of things like this.


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## mycrofft (Oct 20, 2009)

*Sorry, area around Scott AFB is too flat for searching.*

Just kidding.
But it IS pretty flat!


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## Miss Xina (Oct 21, 2009)

mycrofft said:


> Just kidding.
> But it IS pretty flat!





LOL you're quite right but it is a tri state organisation type of thing so I'm sure there's a few slopes around..besides, we won't be here forever!

I volunteer at the humane society occassionally and would love to work with the k9 department. I was hoping to do my training while I'm here then when I move to an area where there's more "opportunity" I'd be prepared!


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