# Athiests in EMS



## SeeNoMore (Dec 20, 2010)

This thread is for a casual discussion amongst athiests in EMS, and whether/how this affects your views on your profession. I thought of this after being told by multiple folks with years in the field that "if you are not religious now, you will be or you will fail" under the assumption that no one that did not believive in God could stand the stress and perhaps feelings of powerlessness (as in when a pt is going to die no matter what you or the hospital can do). 

I also find it intersting to deal with the many religious pts I encounter, who have asked me to pray with or for them, or whether I am religious. I of course do not enter into a discussion of my feelings on this, but try to be supportive and non committal as in 

" I was raised catholic, how about you"

or 

"We will do everything I can, we are going to be at the hospital soon etc..."

I also wonder whether you have ever felt friction with partners or members of EMS about this issue. I've found most people to be fairly respectful of it, if a little condescending at times. It's more often my sexuality or left wing views that get me into trouble! 

Lastly, I know none of this effects pt care, but despite that these types of issues come up especially when you work closely with people, or form close bonds like in a medic class.


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## JJR512 (Dec 20, 2010)

How about agnostics, are they (including me) welcome in this thread?

I don't personally believe there is "God" in the sense of a supreme deity, a conscious, willful entity with the power to deliberately do things. However, I do not believe that God does _not_ exist; I just don't believe that he _does_. It may sound like the same thing, but it's not to me.

I do not strongly believe there is no such thing as God, as is the typical atheist view. I strongly believe that it is highly unlikely that God exists, but I am not _sure_ of that, or am unwilling to commit myself to that viewpoint. I'm willing to keep an open mind that I could be wrong.

I believe more in the scientific explanations for things. I believe that science doesn't have it entirely right, but I think they are much closer to the truth than any religious explanation. I know science is evolving as new discoveries are made and refinements, or even the total debunking, of old theories and even "laws" happens all the time. This is part of what is attractive about science: its willingness to change and adapt, and to say it was wrong. Religion, at least no religion I am familiar with, is willing to say it was wrong. With religion, it's always "THIS is what happened, period. Either accept it or go to hell."

I believe humans are a naturally curious species. We like to understand things, we like to know _why_ and _how_. Early in our history, we lacked the tools and knowledge that have lead to the scientific explanations for things, but we still wanted to know WHY. Why does that big bright ball move across the sky every day? Why does it get dark at night; where does the light go? What's that little white ball that moves across the sky most nights, and why does it change shape? Why does water come from the sky? What's past the farthest place I've ever been? What will it be like after my body falls to the ground and I never move again? We wanted to know the answers to these, and thousands of other questions. We couldn't explain them scientifically so we invented supernatural explanations.

As far as we knew, nothing happened without something making it happen. A stick dam doesn't appear in a stream unless a beaver builds it there. A pile of rocks doesn't appear unless we pick up the rocks and build it. So surely that big bright ball of light in the sky doesn't move across the sky unless someone moves it. And so on. First there were gods for every little thing, then it became one god for everything.

Now we have science. And who knows, maybe some day there will be a completely knew way of understanding the universe, and people of that future age will look back on today's science just as modern-day Christians look back on paganism.

Anyway, it's never been a problem for me in EMS. I don't go around telling everyone I meet about my views and beliefs. If I'm asked, just as in this thread, I'll explain what I happen to believe. And I explain it as just that, a _belief_. I never tell anyone I know I'm right, because in fact I don't. Like I said earlier, I have an open mind to the fact I could be wrong. And I expect the same open-mindedness in everyone else, and it really irritates me when I come across someone who wants to tell me that whatever his or her belief is is not a belief but is factual knowledge, is absolutely right, without any possibility otherwise.

It can be weird and frustrating sometimes, though, when a patient or family wants to talk about God, and how God will make everything OK, or it's OK to die and go up to Heaven where one will be reunited, etc. Nobody's ever asked me to pray with them, thankfully. In these situations I just feel a bit ill-at-ease. I don't really know what to say, but I know not to say anything directly contradictory to whatever their beliefs are. And figuring out how to avoid that can sometimes be difficult.


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## SeeNoMore (Dec 20, 2010)

Thanks for your reply JJR512, of course agnostics are welcome. 

And just to be clear, discussions of religion are not typically started by me, but in more than a few occasions have been started AT me. I agree that unelss you know someone and have a relationship (as with a trusted partner) it's not always a wise thing to bring up. Nor approrpriate typically.

Yeah I've been asked to pray with pts twice. One pt was not very oriented, to so gentle reassurance sort of moved the issue forward on it's own. The other pt was a little more awkward. I was also a new new EMT. He ended up just praying out loud (a little dramatically at that primarily because his back hurt him on the stretcher)  as I continued to do what I did, he did not seem offended, and his condition was as far as I know, not that critical. I think he could tell I was a little at a loss lol


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## abckidsmom (Dec 20, 2010)

JJR512 said:


> It can be weird and frustrating sometimes, though, when a patient or family wants to talk about God, and how God will make everything OK, or it's OK to die and go up to Heaven where one will be reunited, etc. Nobody's ever asked me to pray with them, thankfully. In these situations I just feel a bit ill-at-ease. I don't really know what to say, but I know not to say anything directly contradictory to whatever their beliefs are. And figuring out how to avoid that can sometimes be difficult.



How about "I don't pray, but I'm happy to sit with you."  That's pretty non-committal and non-offensive IMHO.

Also, "It's nice that you find comfort in your beliefs at times like this."

I'm an expert at non-committal speech when it's planned beforehand.  I'm a Christian, so I don't pray with people in the names of their gods.  I also believe that while I'm ready to talk about spiritual things with people, I only do so if they clearly ask. 

Like the OP, I think the key is just being respectful of people.

So that makes an atheist, an agnostic, and a christian.  What kind of atheist thread is this?


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## akflightmedic (Dec 20, 2010)

As an atheist in EMS, I have had more bias thrown against me than I ever would at someone of any other faith. I observe that I and other like minded people display far more tolerance, respect and understanding of the differences in the human condition than those of faith (Christianity to be more specific).That is one of the great hypocrisy's which drive me nuts, but that is an entirely different discussion.

With regards to how it affects me is the simple fact that most people assume that since they are religious then everyone else must be as well. They also assume because I have compassion and a desire to help my fellow man then certainly it must be a higher power working through me. This is a rather large annoyance as well because I have chosen to do or not do everything in my life which led to this career and how I perform within it. But even stating that is not enough because the die hards will say that is simply the lord giving me direction...you simply can not argue that type of "logic".

When it comes to patient care, I have had many patients over the years ask to take my hand and pray with them. I have no issue providing the contact and in my opinion, that is all they really wanted anyways, an excuse to reach out and connect, to feel like they are not alone. I respectfully stay silent while they take a moment as long as it is not going to impact their care. I have had the many God Bless yous, thank Jesus for you and similar bestowals; I simply smile and continue on. I will never discuss my personal beliefs with a patient, I have many ways to tactfully dodge the question. I also avoid the discussions at work because like sexual orientation and politics, they simply do not belong.

I will walk away from any conversation involving these things and not apologize for it. It is never initiated by me, always by the person wishing to proselytize. Another annoyance for me is when people find Jesus and suddenly feel "complete" and better about themselves, they automatically assume anyone else who does not know Jesus must feel exactly the same as they did. They can not comprehend that some people are already content with their life even without church, Jesus or God in their life <gasp>.

One final thing for now until this topic develops further, I did have the experience of baptizing a newborn. I have written about this before and it is quite the irony of ironies but it does make for a great story these many years later. I delivered a breech child who had multiple internal complications which the parents were already aware of. They knew the child was not going to survive for any great amount of time after delivery. The father was in the back of the rig with us and after delivery they asked me to baptize the child. Having never been trained in this in paramedic school or anywhere  , I pulled out a bottle of sterile water and said words that I had seen on TV. The parents did an amen and were visibly relieved. Apparently I had just saved their child so he could go home to Jesus. During this call, my patients were the parents, not the newborn which was dying. It was no sweat off my back to say words and perform a rite which has zero impact on my daily life. I simply did what was needed to be done and moved on. But again, those die hards will say the lord was trying to reach me and yet again I have missed his call.


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## SeeNoMore (Dec 20, 2010)

Ak, that is a crazy story. Sounds like something from an over the top EMS tv show. Quite an experience. :excl:


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## Sassafras (Dec 20, 2010)

I am a preacher's wife turned atheist (my husband is also atheist now).  I do appreciate the theological discussions on a historical or anthropological level and I feel it helps me relate to my religious based patients.  However, discussion and prayer are two different things.  I've not been asked to pray with a patient, but it would feel like a lie to me if I were to oblige that request.  I am genuinely curious about everyone's story, partners, patients, neighbors alike.  I know they all have their reasons for why they believe as they do and it is not my place to interfere with that.  However, times like December I find rather irritating with the angry protests of keep christ in christmas and it's not a holiday tree or it's not Xmas.  If it's not a patient I like to educate them on the history of why there is an X and that it originally was not a christmas tree but a tree decorated to worship Baal.  It's my little form of rebellion I guess.  If it's a patient though, I feel that would go against what they need to heal at the moment.  I am also one that will say "Happy whatever holiday it is you celebrate this month" and if they say christmas then I repeat "well merry christmas then" or "Happy chanukkah" or whatever.  In inter facility transports if I run into someone of a faith I'm not familiar with I will ask questions if they are up to talking.  I feel it helps me understand their world view.  And I remember back to bible college when my room mate could not interview a rabbi alone and was informed NOT to even shake his hand.  It was explained to her that only the rabbis wife was allowed to touch him as a female.  So the first jewish patient we picked up from an ER transport (religion was provided on his face sheet before we even made contact), I turned around and asked his wife if he was a rabbi and if it was o.k. for me to treat him or if he would prefer my male partner.  My partner was shocked I thought to ask and even knew to ask.  The wife was beaming with gratitude that I was concientious of their faith and thanked me.  He ended up being just jewish.  Not a rabbi and I got to ride in the back and tech him.  He told me wonderful tales of his faith and I learned a lot and added a notch to my diversity belt. 

I think I'm rambeling at this point, but it's a journey, it's a process and it's important to be sensitive to the needs of our patients while being honest with ourselves in my world view.  How that works out for another provider may be different, but I pride myself on being able to relate well with others.  I hope it comes across as caring.


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## akflightmedic (Dec 20, 2010)

SeeNoMore said:


> Sounds like something from an over the top EMS tv show.



And where do you think TV writers get their fodder? From people who post it online or share it with someone else...those TV idiots could never be that creative on their own.


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## firecoins (Dec 20, 2010)

I am an atheist.  I don't discuss my views with people.  Not their business. 

I was born into a Jewsih family.  Christianity is "foreign" to me and always has been.  I work on Christian holidays and am considered to be apart of the Jew crew.


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## EMTRyan88 (Dec 20, 2010)

Im an eclectic Pagan, primarily following Wicca. While I have no problem with other people's belief's since I believe that they all basically have the same idea and goal in mind, other people arent always quite as tolerant. What are some good ways to dodge the question when people ask me about my religion. I think I would feel kind of uncomfortable with a pt asking me to pray with them, but would still do it to put them at ease. I mean its not going to hurt me and might just be enough to help them relax.


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## HotelCo (Dec 21, 2010)

Glad to see I'm not the only one. 

I'm lucky, my primary partner is also an atheist. My one-day-a-week partner is a very big christian. He has no problem with my atheism, and I have no problem with his christianity (other than the fact that he plays christian music on the radio).


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## emt_irl (Dec 21, 2010)

i was born and raised a catholic, havent practiced in years though. dont have much time for god stuff anymore, maybe when im old i will again.

thankfully it never comes up when treating patients, and with partners the chit chat is usually ems based, family guy and south park based or other random things we encounter on our crazy travels


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## Seaglass (Dec 21, 2010)

I'm not comfortable discussing my religious beliefs, even though they're pretty mainstream. I've found that otherwise calm and rational folks of any persuasion tend to start foaming at the mouth very quickly when the topic comes up. If a patient wants to talk about it, I'll tell them about hospital chaplains. If there's nothing else to do, though, and my patient doesn't care about my beliefs, I'll pray with them. It doesn't hurt, and can offer a lot of comfort. 

Because I'm familiar with a number of religions, I find myself explaining or defending random ones from an academic standpoint often enough with coworkers. Sometimes it leads to confusion about what I believe, but everyone's generally pretty respectful when I tell them I'm not going to talk about it.


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## firecoins (Dec 21, 2010)

SeeNoMore said:


> I thought of this after being told by multiple folks with years in the field that "if you are not religious now, you will be or you will fail" under the assumption that no one that did not believive in God could stand the stress and perhaps feelings of powerlessness (as in when a pt is going to die no matter what you or the hospital can do). .



I too find such view points to be outright offensive. Thats why I believe in the tooth fairy.


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## SeeNoMore (Dec 21, 2010)

Perhaps it is also an issue of temperment. I never assumed I would save everyone. In fact, having read a lot of the research (when I should have probably  been studying what was currently applicable to me :sad: ) I was pretty aware that saving lives is sort of an overstatment compared to the more realistic goal of providing good prehospital care and hopefully decreasing patient morality in a broad sense and or improving patient outcomes. 

I am not bothered or shocked by people dying or bad things happening to people that I can not always help. That seems to be the nature of reality.


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## Phlipper (Dec 21, 2010)

> One final thing for now until this topic develops further, I did have the experience of baptizing a newborn. I have written about this before and it is quite the irony of ironies but it does make for a great story these many years later. I delivered a breech child who had multiple internal complications which the parents were already aware of. They knew the child was not going to survive for any great amount of time after delivery. The father was in the back of the rig with us and after delivery they asked me to baptize the child. Having never been trained in this in paramedic school or anywhere , I pulled out a bottle of sterile water and said words that I had seen on TV. The parents did an amen and were visibly relieved. Apparently I had just saved their child so he could go home to Jesus. During this call, my patients were the parents, not the newborn which was dying. It was no sweat off my back to say words and perform a rite which has zero impact on my daily life. I simply did what was needed to be done and moved on. But again, those die hards will say the lord was trying to reach me and yet again I have missed his call.



Cool story.  

As a fellow Atheist/Humanist I sympathize with you.  However, I am lucky in that most of my co-workers, while church-goers in general, are vile and crude and profane and would never get into the "Have you found Jesus?" bit.


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## Chimpie (Dec 21, 2010)

*Let's keep this on topic with EMS or it's going to be closed.*


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## akflightmedic (Dec 21, 2010)

SeeNoMore said:


> This thread is for a casual discussion amongst atheists in EMS, and whether/how this affects your views on your profession.



Seems like the OP dictated the topic by saying it is for CASUAL DISCUSSION amongst atheists AND whether/how it affects our views on the profession. Seems like two different choices to me and both need not be addressed in order to post.

One might say a moderator is a bit heavy handed and deleted posts which were entirely on topic as the deleted posts certainly qualified as casual discussion amongst like minded individuals.

If someone disagrees or is offended, the title of the thread should have been their first clue to not even look.


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## firecoins (Dec 21, 2010)

Chimpie said:


> *Let's keep this on topic with EMS or it's going to be closed.*



I never saw it get off topic. Every bit of it was about Athiests in EMS.


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## JJR512 (Dec 21, 2010)

Chimpie said:


> *Let's keep this on topic with EMS or it's going to be closed.*


?


firecoins said:


> I never saw it get off topic. Every bit of it was about Athiests in EMS.


Exactly.


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## akflightmedic (Dec 21, 2010)

SeeNoMore said:


> This thread is for a casual discussion amongst atheists in EMS, and whether/how this affects your views on your profession.
> 
> I also wonder whether you have ever felt friction with partners or members of EMS about this issue. I've found most people to be fairly respectful of it, if a little condescending at times. It's more often my sexuality or left wing views that get me into trouble!



I have to agree, I have experienced some friction as an atheist in EMS, especially when I tell my opinion of others beliefs when asked; for example this one time when discussing Christianity with my EMS coworkers inside the EMS station while on duty, I told this example as my summation of the Christian religion:

"Over a billion people claim to believe that a 2000 year old cosmic, Jewish zombie, born of a virgin mother; will offer you eternal life if you symbolically eat his flesh, drink his blood and telepathically accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force, present on all humans because a woman who was made from the rib of a man, who was constructed of dust, was convinced by a talking snake, to eat a cursed apple, from a magical tree growing in a mystical garden a little while after the universe was created around 6000 years ago." 

The were not ok with my description and insisted I had it all wrong. It led to some friction between me, an atheist in EMS and my EMS co workers while on EMS duty in the EMS station, but it did lead to some interesting discussions.


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## jjesusfreak01 (Dec 22, 2010)

akflightmedic said:


> I have to agree, I have experienced some friction as an atheist in EMS, especially when I tell my opinion of others beliefs when asked; for example this one time when discussing Christianity with my EMS coworkers inside the EMS station while on duty, I told this example as my summation of the Christian religion:
> 
> "Over a billion people claim to believe that a 2000 year old cosmic, Jewish zombie, born of a virgin mother; will offer you eternal life if you symbolically eat his flesh, drink his blood and telepathically accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force, present on all humans because a woman who was made from the rib of a man, who was constructed of dust, was convinced by a talking snake, to eat a cursed apple, from a magical tree growing in a mystical garden a little while after the universe was created around 6000 years ago."



Well, that is mostly accurate, but its not the nicest way of putting it. I wouldn't have any problems working with atheists. Doesn't bother me in the least, as long as they aren't being intentionally offensive.


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## Asimurk (Dec 22, 2010)

Personal beliefs interfering with professionalism can be an issue, but I'm having trouble grasping how lack of faith would be a problem for EMS.  ":censored::censored::censored::censored: happens," either you're able to get over it or you aren't.  Though if it were to ever come up, I'm guessing I'd just obfuscate.


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## rhan101277 (Dec 22, 2010)

I am a christian, however I don't go around trying to sell my views or what not.  I had a lady ask me to pray for her last week while we were in the back of the ambulance and I did so.  I did not pray out loud or anything though, I was not sure who she wanted me to pray to either.

It does concern me that their are people in EMS who do not believe *any* God exists or higher being etc. especially after taking A&P I and A&P II.  The human body is incredibly complicated from the way we hear, see, think etc.  I guess I could open a can of worms but I will just leave it at that.


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## Sassafras (Dec 23, 2010)

Why should it concern you that there are those in EMS that don't believe in a higher power though? As long as we treat our patients respectfully and get the job done, what our beliefs are regarding how we came to be here matters not. What does matter is what we will do with the time we are given on this green earth. And maybe that we leave it better than when we got here but that has little to do with EMS specifically.


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## JJR512 (Dec 23, 2010)

Sassafras said:


> Why should it concern you that there are those in EMS that don't believe in a higher power though? As long as we treat our patients respectfully and get the job done, what our beliefs are regarding how we came to be here matters not. What does matter is what we will do with the time we are given on this green earth. And maybe that we leave it better than when we got here but that has little to do with EMS specifically.



I don't think his concern was that our patient care will suffer because we do not believe in a supreme deity. I think his concern is that we must not be rational people if the beauty of the natural world has not convinced us that there must be a supreme deity.

What rhan101277 fails to understand is that people who do not believe in supreme deities are just as concerned about the rationality of people who do believe in them.

However, there's really no place for this particular aspect of the discussion to go other than to degenerate into a battle of which side is right and which side is wrong. So I propose that rhan101277 was right about this can of worms, and we should really try to not go there.


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## Sassafras (Dec 23, 2010)

JJR512 said:


> However, there's really no place for this particular aspect of the discussion to go other than to degenerate into a battle of which side is right and which side is wrong. So I propose that rhan101277 was right about this can of worms, and we should really try to not go there.


I'm going to have to agree with this but have to say I love that you used the word "degenerate". Self admitted word fettish here LOL.


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## firemedic07 (Dec 23, 2010)

im not holy at all. but when asked if ill pray with them ill be silent. but no one has called me out on it so i really dont care. but i did stay at a holiday inn last night


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## brentoli (Dec 23, 2010)

firemedic07 said:


> im not holy at all. but when asked if ill pray with them ill be silent. but no one has called me out on it so i really dont care. but i did stay at a holiday inn last night



Truthfully, spiritual care can do as much for someone as an intervention does. I don't mean sprititual in the form of the Trinity or Allah or what have you, rather the care that comes from the care, love, and touch of another person. When someone wants you to pray with them, as AK mentioned, really they just want a hand to hold and a reassurance. Whats the harm if your not interupting important tasks?


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## akflightmedic (Dec 23, 2010)

rhan101277 said:


> It does concern me that their are people in EMS who do not believe *any* God exists or higher being etc. especially after taking A&P I and A&P II.  The human body is incredibly complicated from the way we hear, see, think etc.  I guess I could open a can of worms but I will just leave it at that.



Your opinion is welcome of course as I hold a similar concern which is how people can be in EMS AFTER taking an AnP I and II class or any other advanced college level science course. I simply do not know how they cling to those beliefs with all that science stuff and book lernin'...so know that you are not alone in your concerns, especially to the converse.


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## fma08 (Dec 23, 2010)

IN MY OPINION: We are here to do a professional job. Provide medical care. To do that to the best of our ability requires keeping a scientific mind about things. I'm not about to start praying with a patient if it hinders my care of the person. I will bow my head and close my eyes with family after running a code if they so desire because at that point they are the patient and it will make them feel better. 

Another topic on the same level is abortion. I believe abortion is medically necessary in some cases (to save the mother's life) and will advocate for it in those instances. However, religiously affiliated hospitals (some anyway) often will not even give that as a treatment option to patients because it interferes with their personal beliefs.

My overall OPINION is this. Just like there is (should be) a separation of church and state, so too should there be a separation of church and medicine.

Religion is not objective. Medicine must be.


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## HotelCo (Dec 23, 2010)

When asked what my religious views are by a patient, I simply tell them that I'm an atheist. I'm not ashamed of it, and I don't try and hide it from people... I'm actually proud of it. Proud of the fact that I questioned what I was taught, thought it through, and arrived at the only rational conclusion: that there is no god. 

.


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## firecoins (Dec 23, 2010)

rhan101277 said:


> It does concern me that their are people in EMS who do not believe *any* God exists or higher being etc. especially after taking A&P I and A&P II.  The human body is incredibly complicated from the way we hear, see, think etc.  I guess I could open a can of worms but I will just leave it at that.



After taking any advanced science class, I am always concerned how anyone can hang on to the concept of God or Gods. THe concept of forming an hypothesis and testing it seems to be the best of way generating truth.


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## Silver_Star (Dec 24, 2010)

I tend to keep my beliefs to myself. And I try to keep it that way when asked by patients and coworkers. Though many of my coworkers attempt to push their brand on me (one woman in particular) I try to tell her I'm not interested as nicely as possible until she starts getting pushy and yelling at me... then I tell her where to shove it.


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## Youngin (Dec 25, 2010)

I'm agnostic - I find it equally as difficult to believe in an ultimate creator as to believe that everything that exists just...appeared. 

Anyways, If a patient ever did ask me to pray with them, I think I'd do what I could to oblige them while still doing my job. I haven't even started EMT-B classes yet, but I'd imagine that I would want to do is only comforting the patient, right?

As far as any confrontations or discussions that I've had with people about religion, and there have been a few, I just always try to be respectful. We've all met obnoxious atheists and obnoxious religious people, and I'm sure most of us get annoyed by each of them. It annoys me when someone thinks less of another person just because they believe in a god or because they don't believe in a god.

<end of ramble>


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## usafmedic45 (Dec 26, 2010)

When asked about my religious beliefs, I tell the patient what I think they want to hear (which is normally "Yes, I do have a personal relationship with Jay-sus!").  I see no benefit to telling them the truth about my lack of faith.  Usually I just tell people I am Episcopalian. 



> It does concern me that their are people in EMS who do not believe any God exists or higher being etc. especially after taking A&P I and A&P II. The human body is incredibly complicated from the way we hear, see, think etc. I guess I could open a can of worms but I will just leave it at that.



It concerns me that someone can honestly believe that there is a just and loving God (such as the Christian God is described to be) after seeing what we see as part of our job.  You see the handiwork of god in the complexity of the human body, I see the process of evolution.  I'm not going to convince you that you're wrong and I can't legally recommend anti-psychotic medication because unfortunately religion is the one delusion that is protected by the Bill of Rights. 



> whether/how this affects your views on your profession.


Bear in mind that I am a complete cynic and misanthrope.  



> I thought of this after being told by multiple folks with years in the field that "if you are not religious now, you will be or you will fail" under the assumption that no one that did not believive in God could stand the stress and perhaps feelings of powerlessness (as in when a pt is going to die no matter what you or the hospital can do).



I've been told that too....usually by weak people who can't summon the inner strength to deal with their own problems without blaming someone else or having a good excuse.  Apparently "The invisible man I believe in doesn't want me to succeed" is a valid excuse in some circles.  Sounds like the start to an insanity defense to me to be quite honest, but then again.  On the flip side, you have the folks who credit their success to their chosen deity and assume that if you don't do the same, you will fail.  It's kind of a weird reversed fundamental attribution error, which is best demonstrated by how football players seldmo curse God when they fail (at least not publicly) but they always want to thank their homeboy Jesus when they scored that game winning touchdown.  Religion is actually a lot like football: even if you don't agree or root for the same team, it's probably best to keep it to yourself unless you really want to deal with the consequences.  Speaking as a resident of Indianapolis who doesn't root for the Colts (I'm the Switzerland of the NFL: I support no team, choosing to remain neutral), I am quite good at this.  

I actually am the exact opposite of what those people told you:  I started out wanting to be a minister and now I'm an atheist thanks- in large part- to my experiences in health care.


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## Melclin (Dec 26, 2010)

usafmedic45 said:


> I started out wanting to be a minister .



Really.......woah.

Whenever my blood ROFL concentration drops bellow the normal range, I will think of that


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## firecoins (Dec 26, 2010)

Religion has never been brought up by a patient.  I of course don't bring it up.


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## usafmedic45 (Dec 26, 2010)

Melclin said:


> Really.......woah.
> 
> Whenever my blood ROFL concentration drops bellow the normal range, I will think of that


Yeah, I was actually planning on being a Presbyterian minister from the time I was about 12 until just before my 20th birthday.  I got into EMS as a way to help people and pay my living expenses while working on my bachelors degree.  My friends died in a car accident I worked and it was a life-changing experience to say the least.


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## JJR512 (Dec 29, 2010)

I am starting to have doubts about being agnostic. Now there is a statement loaded with irony if I ever saw one...Anyway, the direction I am leaning is not towards atheism, either.

Actually, I shouldn't say "leaning"...maybe being pulled? Or more like falling into. I don't know.

For a long time, I have felt that religious people have something I don't, and that's a sense of inner peace, or serenity, or ease. They might not always act like it on the outside, but when I get to know someone who believes in their religion, it seems that they take comfort in their beliefs. And that's something I lack, but want. The trouble for me has always been that intellectually, I could not fathom believing in anything of a religious nature, some kind of supernatural or supreme deity, entity, or power.

But some things have happened to me during the last week or so. Pretty much right before I posted the "Somebody please just shoot me" comment in the 100% Directionless thread. Because at that moment, I really did want to die, so I posted that, knowing it wouldn't be taken seriously, yet meant absolutely seriously. I feel like my life is already over, anyway. I need help. I used to see a therapist, and shouldn't have stopped, but I did, because I was stupid. I've made an appointment to see him but that won't be for another two weeks, and in the meantime, I am in serious danger of not making it to that appointment. I need someone, or something, to turn to.

I can't afford much alcohol, so rather than getting drunk for the next two weeks, I tried to find some other options, and realized that when religious people have problems, they pray. I can't pray. I can't sit there and project thoughts at some entity I don't seriously believe in, which is really a lie because I do it all the time...How many agnostics and atheists actually do "talk" to God? "Oh God no," or, "Please, God," or, "God damn it," those are all examples of talking to God, and I think those are things that many people say, even if they don't really think they believe in God. But anyway, to get back on the point of this paragraph, I don't really know about praying right now, but I figured I could take an intermediate step and go see a priest.

Have you ever seen a movie in which a character realizes his problem is so bad that it can only be solved with help or guidance from God, and the only way he can get it is to talk to God in church, as if He won't hear you anywhere else? So the character goes into a church, when there's no mass, and the church is empty. He sits in one of the pews and prays, or just talks, or thinks in his head. After a few minutes, a priest comes into the church from some side room, and notices the man, and walks over to him. The priest asks if everything is OK, and the man says yes, but starts describing his problem anyway, and the priest usually has something very simple yet surprisingly helpful to say. And the man leaves, with a clearer sense of purpose in mind, now knowing what he must do to solve the problem.

Well, that's what I want.

Except I guess it doesn't work like that in real life. I went by a church and the doors were locked. I guess God wasn't home. I had to call and make an appointment. I'm going tomorrow, I'll check back here and let you know if I've found the path to enlightenment or not...


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## firecoins (Dec 29, 2010)

JJR512 said:


> I am starting to have doubts about being agnostic. Now there is a statement loaded with irony if I ever saw one...Anyway, the direction I am leaning is not towards atheism, either.
> ...



If praying to God makes you feel better, great.  Do it.  

If you think religious people have an inner peace, thats also great. I don't think so.

Nothing you said is based on reasoned approach but rather out of a state of depression.


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## 18G (Dec 29, 2010)

+1 JJR.

I am not atheist or agnostic. I am openly Christian. I do not go around spouting off beliefs at inopportune times  but would not hesitate to talk about them if asked by someone. 

I don't have a problem working with someone who is an atheist or agnostic. They are people and deserve the same treatment as anyone else. In a job such as EMS, certain events can call into question the presence of God by some. But it's during these times of tragedy and loss that forces us to search and reach out for answers. God is the designer of life. Our intellect and ability to rationalize is very minute in comparison so it's impossible without faith to accept the teachings of Christianity as absolute. And I admit, I struggle with understanding of some things but its faith that keeps me here. There is a part of scripture in the bible that even says, "do not rely on your own understanding, instead put your faith in God". 

The answers are there if one opens their mind to find them. How does a book written thousands of years ago tell verbatim what is going on in the world today? Is that just by chance too? I have had things happen, prayers actually answered, and presence felt, I am not imagining. God is real.


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## firecoins (Dec 29, 2010)

18G said:


> There is a part of scripture in the bible that even says, "do not rely on your own understanding, instead put your faith in God".


Yes don't think for yourself. Let others do it for you. I think this is one of the main problems atheists and others have issues with relgion. I could be saying something offensive and I don't mean to but its very important to think for yourself.  



18G said:


> I am not imagining. God is real.


 Thas is another main problem.  There are many religions. They have 1 God, several Gods or no Gods at all. Some even worship extraterrestrials.  They insist they are not imagining things either.  Kind of difficult to see which one to follow.  Nothing wrong with Christianity. It just isn't the only "answer" if we should become religious.

JJR512 didn't other to find a synogogue.  He made no appointment with the local Imam.  He didn't take up Hinduism or Buddhism.  He went right to a chrurch.  Why? Because Christianity is the main religion in the area.  I will help JJR512 find a synogogue if he wants one being that I am formerly Jewish.  The tribe would welcome you with open arms.


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## Sassafras (Dec 29, 2010)

JJR512 said:


> For a long time, I have felt that religious people have something I don't, and that's a sense of inner peace, or serenity, or ease. They might not always act like it on the outside, but when I get to know someone who believes in their religion, it seems that they take comfort in their beliefs. And that's something I lack, but want. The trouble for me has always been that intellectually, I could not fathom believing in anything of a religious nature, some kind of supernatural or supreme deity, entity, or power.



I felt no peace when I was a christian.  Filled with fear of disobeying the unseen deity in the sky, terrified I'd miss the rapture.  My life was a hot mess.  Walking away from religion has given me much more peace. I am the one who has control over my life and no one else.  Sure things get in the way I have no control over, but I do have control over my reactions to those situations and how I deal with them.  I do hope if you pursue the church thing that it brings you the peace you are seeking though.  Life is a journey none of us can walk for another person.  If this is the way you feel you need to go, then pursue it openly and hope for the best.  Good luck my friend, what ever happens.


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## 18G (Dec 29, 2010)

I do think for myself and I decided what is true. I've considered the alternatives and to me they make absolutely no sense. The reason I stated that part of a scripture was to illustrate that Christianity does provide answers if one looks for em. God knows our struggles and desires for truth. 

I would not label myself "religious" as I do not believe in the man-made ceremonies and theatrics of religion. I believe in the truth and word of Jesus Christ that is written in the Bible. 

And again, I certainly do not have all the answers and I lack understanding of many things but I'm not gonna dismiss something solely because I do not understand. Science is not infallible. Some things can not be proven and never will be. 

I am not delusional as implied. I know what has happened to me and that specific prayers were answered.


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## Sassafras (Dec 29, 2010)

Taking this back to EMS conversations, how would you deal with this situation?  About a year ago I was at the station and the news was on t.v. There was an article about an uproar in Europe over a muslim woman being killed as the result of a hate crime.  I remember commenting about it and one of our chiefs saying he didn't care.  When asked why I was informed that this woman didn't believe in god and so she did not deserve his concern.  He was very clearly Christian and the fact that she DID believe in a god didn't count as it was not his god. I found myselve concerned that if he DID find out I was an atheist things would be hostile.  I actually asked him if he would treat a patient if he knew they were an atheist and he refused an answer.  I didn't press it, because at that time I didn't feel comfortable the resulting "but I'm an atheist" I was bound to say if the conversation continued.


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## firecoins (Dec 29, 2010)

18G said:


> I do think for myself and I decided what is true.


You just posted a quote from the bible that says not to think for yourself.



> I've considered the alternatives and to me they make absolutely no sense.The reason I stated that part of a scripture was to illustrate that Christianity does provide answers if one looks for em. God knows our struggles and desires for truth.


You see thats a problem.  Buddhism provides the answers. Judism provides the answers.  Hinduism provides the answers. They all provide the answers if you look for them. Budda knows our struggles and has show us the path to enlightenment. 



> I would not label myself "religious" as I do not believe in the man-made ceremonies and theatrics of religion. I believe in the truth and word of Jesus Christ that is written in the bible.


You believe in the word of Jesus Christ. You don't get more Christian than that. 



> And again, I certainly do not have all the answers and I lack understanding of many things but I'm not gonna dismiss something solely because I do not understand.


Your dismissing other religions as not having the answers.



> Science is not infallible. Some things can not be proven and never will be.


You clearly don't understand science or you wouldn't make that statement.  Science knows it doesn't know everything and thats built in to scientific testing.  Religion has no testing. It is correct because we say so. Its the word of God. How can God be wrong? If something doesn't make sense, you need to stop thinking and just believe. 



> I am not delusional as implied. I know what has happened to me and that specific prayers were answered.


No one implied your delusional. You are at least not any more delusional than members of any other religion.


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## 18G (Dec 29, 2010)

I think atheists are delusional... but that's just me. Most atheists are really abrasive and "in your face" to the point that they create their own religion based on their whole non-belief system. 

I've often wondered why atheists are so committed to making others see their point of view. If you believe in nothing than than why even bother?


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## Sassafras (Dec 29, 2010)

18G said:


> I think atheists are delusional... but that's just me. Most atheists are really abrasive and "in your face" to the point that they create their own religion based on their whole non-belief system.
> 
> I've often wondered why atheists are so committed to making others see their point of view. If you believe in nothing than than why even bother?



For a thread not directed at you, your comment is very abrasive and in your face.  Exactly what you insist atheists do.  You obviously do not know a lot of atheists.  Nor do you deal with their discriminatory struggles for daring being different than their neighbors, but thank you for taking an EMS related thread and diverting it to a religious discussion only.  This topic has clear relevence to EMS, but it's turning into agenda pushing.  I've tried to bring it back on track, but apparently that does not matter to you.  Your discussion to our agnostic friend would have seemed much more supportive via PM.  Instead it was trying to prove a point that your views were true and ours were not.  And it has little to do with EMS. 

So please, let's get this back on topic before we get a very relevent thread locked.  And someone (not you since you appear to be biased) addressed my post above.


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## 18G (Dec 29, 2010)

My apologies for getting the thread a bit off track as it wasn't my intention. If someone is gonna share their atheist views and basis for them then I am going to share mine. 

I've said all I've got to say on the topic.. so no worries about the thread getting locked (least not from my posts  ).


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## firecoins (Dec 29, 2010)

18G said:


> I think atheists are delusional... but that's just me. Most atheists are really abrasive and "in your face" to the point that they create their own religion based on their whole non-belief system.


Christians are different how? I find most Christians to be abrasive and "in your face". You came to present your point of view in a thread that nothing to do with Christianity.    

Atheists don't have a religion. 



18G said:


> I've often wondered why atheists are so committed to making others see their point of view.


You came here to advocate for Christianity.  So you are committed to making others see your point of view.  Only Christianity has the answers.


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## Chimpie (Dec 29, 2010)

Let's keep it related to EMS please.  Last warning.


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## Sassafras (Dec 29, 2010)

Chimpie said:


> Let's keep it related to EMS please.  Last warning.



I'm tryin' here.  Really!  h34r:


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## Sassafras (Dec 29, 2010)

Sassafras said:


> Taking this back to EMS conversations, how would you deal with this situation?  About a year ago I was at the station and the news was on t.v. There was an article about an uproar in Europe over a muslim woman being killed as the result of a hate crime.  I remember commenting about it and one of our chiefs saying he didn't care.  When asked why I was informed that this woman didn't believe in god and so she did not deserve his concern.  He was very clearly Christian and the fact that she DID believe in a god didn't count as it was not his god. I found myselve concerned that if he DID find out I was an atheist things would be hostile.  I actually asked him if he would treat a patient if he knew they were an atheist and he refused an answer.  I didn't press it, because at that time I didn't feel comfortable the resulting "but I'm an atheist" I was bound to say if the conversation continued.



Quoting myself so I don't have to retype it, and bringing us back on subject.


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## firecoins (Dec 29, 2010)

If your an EMS provider, the patient's religion should be irrelevant. I have not encountered anyone who would not treat a patient who would not treat a patient outside of their religion.


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## Sassafras (Dec 29, 2010)

My thoughts as well, however, my fear is that this individual's thoughts may not be the same.


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## firecoins (Dec 29, 2010)

Sassafras said:


> My thoughts as well, however, my fear is that this individual's thoughts may not be the same.



Clearly, they aren't, at least not as you have described.  The bias against atheists or non christians in this case is a problem.  

Hatzolah, the Hasidic Jewish ambulacne service pretty much caters to the Hasidic Jewish community.  There is a mix of groups within Hatzolah. Some groups are open to treating anyone and do.  Some seem to stay away from non Hasidc Jews.


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## Aidey (Dec 29, 2010)

firecoins said:


> If your an EMS provider, the patient's religion should be irrelevant. I have not encountered anyone who would not treat a patient who would not treat a patient outside of their religion.



Another atheist here, and I agree. I also think the converse is true, a providers religion should not matter to the patient. This means if I decline to say Hail Marys or the Lord's Prayer with you, and instead offer to contact the hospital chaplain when we get there, please accept that answer and move on.


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## Sassafras (Dec 29, 2010)

I agree Aidey.  I haven't been asked to pray with a patient, but hopefully I can respond gracefully.  I feel that honesty is at the core of who I am and to pray with someone when I don't believe in a listening higher power is lying both to the patient and to myself.  I've witnessed much harm at the hands of religion so in good concience I do not feel I could be a good provider by stopping and praying.  I would however be respectful if they chose to pray and if possible stop interventions long enough to permit that moment. If they were too critical though, I can not and will not stop for anything.  Their life would be in my hands at that point and I become responsible.


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## jjesusfreak01 (Dec 29, 2010)

Aidey said:


> Another atheist here, and I agree. I also think the converse is true, a providers religion should not matter to the patient. This means if I decline to say Hail Marys or the Lord's Prayer with you, and instead offer to contact the hospital chaplain when we get there, please accept that answer and move on.



I'd offer to ask for the hospital chaplain during my call-in if the patient wanted it, especially if they were critical. Its also certainly not wrong to decline to pray with a patient if your religious beliefs don't line up with your patient's.


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## Aidey (Dec 29, 2010)

Sassafras said:


> ...I feel that honesty is at the core of who I am and to pray with someone when I don't believe in a listening higher power is lying both to the patient and to myself.



I agree that honesty is very important, my issue more stems from the fact I don't know those (or any other) prayers! lol. If I am ever asked to baptize a baby I am screwed.




Sassafras said:


> I would however be respectful if they chose to pray and if  possible stop interventions long enough to permit that moment. If they  were too critical though, I can not and will not stop for anything.   Their life would be in my hands at that point and I become  responsible.



This is pretty much how I operate also. I've picked up patients several times from churches/religious events and have accommodated prayer requests. The only time I've had to veto was while getting ready to do a 12 lead they started splashing the patient with holy water. 



jjesusfreak01 said:


> I'd offer to ask for the hospital chaplain during my call-in if the patient wanted it, especially if they were critical. Its also certainly not wrong to decline to pray with a patient if your religious beliefs don't line up with your patient's.



In critical patients that really isn't necessary here becuase the chaplain automatically responds to most of the critical situations. Traumas, strokes, MIs etc. They usually track us down and ask about family/friends, or they take over with family/friends that are already at the hospital.


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## 8jimi8 (Dec 29, 2010)

Aidey said:


> Another atheist here, and I agree. I also think the converse is true, a providers religion should not matter to the patient. This means if I decline to say Hail Marys or the Lord's Prayer with you, and instead offer to contact the hospital chaplain when we get there, please accept that answer and move on.



Aidey, please know that I'm not intending an offensive tone.  

Regarding your nonbelief, why is it so abhorrent to you to say a few meaningless words?  It can provide considerable relief of anxiety for the patient.

It's like singing happy birthday.  It's not really your birthday, but we're celebrating... So you sing!


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## Aidey (Dec 29, 2010)

The difference is that I know the words to Happy Birthday. I don't know the Lord's Prayer or Hail Mary.


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## fma08 (Dec 29, 2010)

8jimi8 said:


> Aidey, please know that I'm not intending an offensive tone.
> 
> Regarding your nonbelief, why is it so abhorrent to you to say a few meaningless words?  It can provide considerable relief of anxiety for the patient.
> 
> It's like singing happy birthday.  It's not really your birthday, but we're celebrating... So you sing!



Also, they're not meaningless to the patient.


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## usafmedic45 (Dec 30, 2010)

> Nothing you said is based on reasoned approach but rather out of a state of depression.



Right, and there is few things more dangerous than making life-altering decisions based upon the effects of mental illness.


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## Sassafras (Dec 30, 2010)

8jimi8 said:


> Aidey, please know that I'm not intending an offensive tone.
> 
> Regarding your nonbelief, why is it so abhorrent to you to say a few meaningless words?  It can provide considerable relief of anxiety for the patient.
> 
> It's like singing happy birthday.  It's not really your birthday, but we're celebrating... So you sing!


 she didn't say it was abhorrent simply asked for mutual respect.  But why ask someone to say something simply because it is meaningless to them. The implication of prayer is that you believe it will work or help. Why would I lie to my patients? I believe dishonesty is more detrimental to them as they need to be able to trust me to tell them the truth about their situation. Praying as though I believe a deity will help them is not  being truthful.


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## usafmedic45 (Dec 31, 2010)

> Why would I lie to my patients? I believe dishonesty is more detrimental to them as they need to be able to trust me to tell them the truth about their situation.



The nice thing about lying about having faith is that they can't prove it one way or another.  It's called plausible deniability.


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## 281mustang (Dec 31, 2010)

I was raised Christian but am now Agnostic. Despite the fact that I strongly dislike religion and it's affect on the world I try to "go with the flow" as much as possible when confronted with it.

I have never been placed in that scenario but I would be more than happy to take the patient's hand and participate in a moment of silence if their current condition allowed. I could not envision myself actively participating in the prayer itself though.


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## 8jimi8 (Dec 31, 2010)

Sassafras said:


> she didn't say it was abhorrent simply asked for mutual respect.  But why ask someone to say something simply because it is meaningless to them. The implication of prayer is that you believe it will work or help. Why would I lie to my patients? I believe dishonesty is more detrimental to them as they need to be able to trust me to tell them the truth about their situation. Praying as though I believe a deity will help them is not  being truthful.



how is it a lie?  How is this going to harm the patient? How are they going to know you dont believe?  

And if you don't believe in it, again, I must ask why is it so hard to say some meaningless words (notice i don't care how meaningful they are to the patient) if it could be an intervention that gives someone the will to continue living.


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## Aidey (Dec 31, 2010)

Ok, I'm going to say this one more time. _*I do not know the words to those prayers!*_ If a patient wants a silent prayer I can hold their hand and close my eyes and use the time to think of what I'm going to do next, generally no biggie. My example stemmed from a specific call where a patient asked me to say a Hail Mary for him, and I tried to decline, and I finally had to tell him I didn't know it, which sent the whole situation down hill. We rolled into the ER with the calling me a heathen and saying my soul was doomed.


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## 8jimi8 (Dec 31, 2010)

Aidey said:


> Ok, I'm going to say this one more time. _*I do not know the words to those prayers!*_ If a patient wants a silent prayer I can hold their hand and close my eyes and use the time to think of what I'm going to do next, generally no biggie. My example stemmed from a specific call where a patient asked me to say a Hail Mary for him, and I tried to decline, and I finally had to tell him I didn't know it, which sent the whole situation down hill. We rolled into the ER with the calling me a heathen and saying my soul was doomed.



i reread your previous post and saw that you do accommodate prayer requests that is more what i meant, i wasnt implying that you should learn a hail mary.  Sorry i wasnt picking at you 
Aidey


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## Asimurk (Dec 31, 2010)

Aidey said:


> Ok, I'm going to say this one more time. _*I do not know the words to those prayers!*_ If a patient wants a silent prayer I can hold their hand and close my eyes and use the time to think of what I'm going to do next, generally no biggie. My example stemmed from a specific call where a patient asked me to say a Hail Mary for him, and I tried to decline, and I finally had to tell him I didn't know it, which sent the whole situation down hill. We rolled into the ER with the calling me a heathen and saying my soul was doomed.



A Catholic I know tried to recite Hail Mary to me, and started, then I thought I had finished, it, but it ended up being Our Father.  Prayers, hopes, wishes, click your heels three times, same thing, same lack of effect on anything other than emotion.


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## Sassafras (Dec 31, 2010)

8jimi8 said:


> how is it a lie?  How is this going to harm the patient? How are they going to know you dont believe?
> 
> And if you don't believe in it, again, I must ask why is it so hard to say some meaningless words (notice i don't care how meaningful they are to the patient) if it could be an intervention that gives someone the will to continue living.



There is much more I can do for a patient and much more I could say to them that would give them the will to live without reverting to lying.  I do not lie.  And asking me to do so because you happen to believe it will be good to break one of the ten commandments for a patient seems a bit of an oxymoron don't you think?  

I come from a very rough religious background filled with hypocracy, pain, and watching people use religion to harm others repeatedly. I will never lie about who I am, because being dishonest regardless of the reason, is firstly harmful to me.  Being dishonest with a patient brings no benefit to my patient at all.  I do not believe prayer will help them, I will not waste my time on it.  Former theology degree here.  Lots of unanswered prayers, and really it's a bit silly to expect the unseen being in the sky to intervene on behalf of some of the richest people in the world when that being won't intervene for the countless humans in poverty stricken nations dying of starvation, malnutrition and the like, being opressed, violated and murdered by their fellow human beings.  

I will do everything within my power to help them,  but prayer is not one of those things.  And it's hypocrytical to expect me to be untrue to myself when most major religions believe that lying will send you to someplace horrid when you die.


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## firetender (Jan 2, 2011)

*It doesn't matter what YOU believe!*

What is it you DO in the back of an ambulance anyway?

Do you administer drugs and therapies that actually CHANGE the person?

Or do you offer adjuncts that help the person's own bodily defense systems come in to play in opposition to impending death?

If you think you're interposing something from without upon the patient, you're not. You're opening a doorway so that the person's OWN defenses can weather the traumatic event. Physiologically, that's how it works. If they are bound for death, NOTHING you can do will stop it. If they're not, then something you have may help.

_*If you are not employing your patients' own defense mechanisms and seeking ways to strengthen them then you are depriving yourself of not only one of your most potent tools, but of being a vehicle through which random miracles occur; regardless of your own beliefs.*_

(Whom amongst the agnostics and atheists have NOT experienced miracles; stuff happening that all known Science or/and everyone/everything else says can't?)

So what that leaves me with is the importance to recognize that working WITH what is means working with the patient exactly where they are at, and if that means tuning in to their wave length and being present for them to USE you as a vehicle to connect with their own defense mechanisms, then, as long as it doesn't interfere with the therapies you are trained to use as well, for Whoever's sake (including your own) *BE THERE FOR THEM!*

Ultimately, that's one more tool to utilize in your Bag of Tricks that you can use without a smidgen of being untrue to yourself. If you recognize that you are an agent of healing and that may include providing solace which may then produce the endorphins necessary to help the patient defend him/herself -- regardless of where it comes from -- then that's what you deliver.


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## HotelCo (Jan 2, 2011)

firetender said:


> (Whom amongst the agnostics and atheists have NOT experienced miracles; stuff happening that all known Science or/and everyone/everything else says can't?)



Just because science can't currently explain it, doesn't mean it's unexplainable. It certainly doesn't mean it's the work of a supernatural being.

I echo what others have said here, and on other threads. When a patient asks me to pray with them, I tell them I'll be more than happy to sit there with them while they pray.

When asked about my beliefs, I tell them. I've never had a patient that suddenly took a turn for the worse because I chose not to lie to them about my beliefs.


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## 8jimi8 (Jan 2, 2011)

Thanks Firetender,  You got the point i was trying to make and expressed it much better than I did.


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## firetender (Jan 2, 2011)

JJR512 said:


> Except I guess it doesn't work like that in real life. I went by a church and the doors were locked. I guess God wasn't home. I had to call and make an appointment. I'm going tomorrow, I'll check back here and let you know if I've found the path to enlightenment or not...



The way it works is you put out a Call. That's what you did right here. Maybe that's God enough!

Do not give a Damn where the Response comes from. Don't analyze it, try to make it right or wrong, just listen first, check in with the deepest part of yourself, and you will know what to do.

Alcoholics Anonymous is actually a guide to Spirituality in that in the Twelve Steps, only the first mentions alcohol; something like "We admitted we were alcoholic and that our lives had become unmanageable."

Beyond that it only refers to "The Higher Power of our understanding." Pick your God, they don't care!

The magic 

I was deeply involved in 12-Step programs (of which there are many INCLUDING Co-dependents Anonymous which can include most anything that keeps you out of the present moment and into endless cycling or repetition of self-destructive behavior) for about 15 years and I didn't have to adopt anyone's way of thinking.

What happened was, for a couple buck donation each "meeting" I got to sit with other people who were working out their ca-ca in the presence of others on a regular basis. To be honest, during those first few months I went to meetings EVERY day for support until I felt strong enough to slow it down; but the gig is, it was always there within a day's wait, I didn't need to have insurance and for at least a few minutes each day I'd be able to express my "truth" without judgment or interference. Through them, I got to hear myself and tap in to the wisdom that was already there. At the same time, the others were reflections of parts of myself I was avoiding or unaware of. You could say I saw God AND myself through them.

These are the building blocks of recovery.

What does this have to do with EMS and us? There's a guy in this thread hurting and he's getting little support. Ramp it up you selfish Schmucks!


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## Asimurk (Jan 2, 2011)

firetender said:


> (Whom amongst the agnostics and atheists have NOT experienced miracles; stuff happening that all known Science or/and everyone/everything else says can't?)



You can't see it, but my hand is in the air.

Someone once said I was a miracle baby because I was the only child to make it out of my mother's womb, after she had already had five miscarriages.  So one more and death, and I can become a saint, right?


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## HotelCo (Jan 15, 2011)

Transported a priest the other day, and the conversation naturally turned to religion. Long story short, I explained why I don't believe in God, and he explained why he did. 

It was a non-event, but I thought I'd share anyway.


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