# Human Biology or Anatomy & Physiology?



## JJR512 (Dec 5, 2007)

The Paramedic program I wish to take includes, naturally, a biology prerequisite. Actually, there is a choice of biology prereqs: Human Biology I & II, or Anatomy & Physiology I & II. I'd like to hear reasoned opinions as to which pair of classes should contribute most greatly to becoming a good Paramedic.



> *BIO-231*
> *Human Biology 1*
> 4 credit hours
> Study the biologically significant inorganic and organic molecules and their relationship to human anatomy and physiology, the structure of cells and tissues, cellular physiology, the fundamentals of inheritance and the anatomy and physiology of the integumentary, skeletal, muscular and digestive systems. Primarily for the two-year health professions programs. You must register for both BIO 231 and BIO 231LB.
> ...


(Note that with the Human Biology track, there is a separate lab class required with I.)



> *BIO-233*
> *Anatomy & Physio 1*
> 4 credit hours
> Study biological chemistry, cell structure and function, tissues and the histology, gross anatomy and physiology of integumentary, skeletal, muscle and nervous systems. Each section includes both lecture and lab.
> ...


 
There is a note included in the description of the Human Biology track that the college's 4-yr nursing students usually take the Anatomy & Physiology track. I'm assuming that the reason for that is that those students (or perhaps their advisors) feel the A&P track is more applicable to nursing. My instinct tells me this would also make it more applicable for Paramedic students as well, but I still want to hear other opinions and thoughts.

Credit is not given for completing both tracks, nor would I like to spend the time or money on both tracks, so I must choose one. Thanks in advance for whatever advice you may offer.


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## FFPARAMEDIC08 (Dec 5, 2007)

I would go with anatomy & physiology. While biology would be a very interesting course, the NREMT-P includes various questions regarding human anatomy.


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## SC Bird (Dec 5, 2007)

I would definetly go with the A&P!!! I took both 210 and 211 (two semesters of A&P at my school) before getting into the EMT program and it helped a tremendous amount.  

The A&P will probably be a more specific course (although both descriptions sound pretty good), where as the BIO course would probably be a little broader.  Just my .02.

-Matt


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## Ridryder911 (Dec 5, 2007)

Unusual to see human biology as a main course. Biology is usually a more broader science course, similar to vertebrae zoology. 

For transferring purposes I suggest A & P I, II. If there is a anatomy course and then a human physiology (both separate courses) I would recommend those over any courses. Usually, an A & P combined course will NOT transfer except as one course. The A & P I will count as an anatomy course, the level II will not transfer and one usually has to take an additional physiology course (if one is considering P.A. school, etc). 

Be sure to check with academic counselors to make sure transferable credits  in that area. 

R/r 911


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## firecoins (Dec 5, 2007)

A&p I & II


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## JJR512 (Dec 5, 2007)

There are no separate anatomy and physiology classes, just the A&P classes, as far as I can tell. But the Paramedic program is at the same school, so I'm not too worried about transferring. It's a community college with one of the three most popular Paramedic programs in the state (the other two belonging to two other counties' community colleges).

Unfortunately, I have just noticed (rather, been informed of the fact by a professor) that the A&P sequence has a BIO-101: Fundamentals of Biology prereq whereas the Human Biology does not. This greatly interferes with my plans. You see, at this school, the first and third Paramedic semesters are only offered in Spring, and the second only in Fall, necessitating a Spring-Fall-Spring sequence. That means all prerequisites need to be completed by the Fall semester of the preceding year in order to start the Paramedic sequence. I had figured that if I take one of the Biology level 1 classes this Spring, and the second this Fall, then I could start Paramedic in Spring of 2009. But if I choose the A&P route, then I have to take Fund-Bio first, that pushes everything back by one semester, which ends up pushing my start of the Paramedic program back by a whole year (since it's only offered in Spring).


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## Arkymedic (Dec 5, 2007)

JJR512 said:


> There are no separate anatomy and physiology classes, just the A&P classes, as far as I can tell. But the Paramedic program is at the same school, so I'm not too worried about transferring. It's a community college with one of the three most popular Paramedic programs in the state (the other two belonging to two other counties' community colleges).
> 
> Unfortunately, I have just noticed (rather, been informed of the fact by a professor) that the A&P sequence has a BIO-101: Fundamentals of Biology prereq whereas the Human Biology does not. This greatly interferes with my plans. You see, at this school, the first and third Paramedic semesters are only offered in Spring, and the second only in Fall, necessitating a Spring-Fall-Spring sequence. That means all prerequisites need to be completed by the Fall semester of the preceding year in order to start the Paramedic sequence. I had figured that if I take one of the Biology level 1 classes this Spring, and the second this Fall, then I could start Paramedic in Spring of 2009. But if I choose the A&P route, then I have to take Fund-Bio first, that pushes everything back by one semester, which ends up pushing my start of the Paramedic program back by a whole year (since it's only offered in Spring).



Does your college offer a winter break term? Some do some don't. There are usually accelerated courses offered during them and biology sometimes is one. It might be something to check into. If not check other schools and see if there is one you can pay to get into and transfer the credit.


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## firecoins (Dec 5, 2007)

Ridryder911 said:


> For transferring purposes I suggest A & P I, II. If there is a anatomy course and then a human physiology (both separate courses) I would recommend those over any courses. Usually, an A & P combined course will NOT transfer except as one course. The A & P I will count as an anatomy course, the level II will not transfer and one usually has to take an additional physiology course (if one is considering P.A. school, etc).
> 
> R/r 911



A & P classes are pre requisite courses at every PA program I have looked at.  Yes the combined classes.  They do not replace the Anatomy or Physiology classes taught at the programs.


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## Ridryder911 (Dec 5, 2007)

I believe if you will closely examine the level of classes most A & P combined will only transfer for one class- the anatomy class (biology science 5 credit hours). The problem is most anatomy classes attempt to combine physiology portion into the A & P II. As well, all of these should have a separate lab at least 3 credits each. Most medical educational institutions prefer an anatomy then a separate physiology course (both at least 5-8 credit hours each) As one that had been in a PA program at one time, I already had A & P I, II and human cadaver lab. I was required to take a separate medical physiology course to meet the physiology requirement prior to admission (and yes, my A & P was at university level (that has a medical school).  

PA programs vary, some are from an associate degree, diploma/certificate to those in my state almost a PhD level. Majority of PA programs are now  graduate level, and many require equal to or even higher bio levels than some medical schools. No matter, one will still probably have to take advanced pathophysiology as well as cadaver anatomy or kinesiology, histology, etc. while in the PA programs. 

I would still advise to definitely checking with an academic counselor if considering transferring any credits, before taking any courses. I know of many students having to repeat courses. As well, most universities will NOT accept any Bio-Science courses > than 5 years old, without either challenging a CLEP or academic referral (medical license, etc). 

R/r 911


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## Arkymedic (Dec 5, 2007)

Ridryder911 said:


> I believe if you will closely examine the level of classes most A & P combined will only transfer for one class- the anatomy class (biology science 5 credit hours). The problem is most anatomy classes attempt to combine physiology portion into the A & P II. As well, all of these should have a separate lab at least 3 credits each. Most medical educational institutions prefer an anatomy then a separate physiology course (both at least 5-8 credit hours each) As one that had been in a PA program at one time, I already had A & P I, II and human cadaver lab. I was required to take a separate medical physiology course to meet the physiology requirement prior to admission (and yes, my A & P was at university level (that has a medical school).
> 
> PA programs vary, some are from an associate degree, diploma/certificate to those in my state almost a PhD level. Majority of PA programs are now  graduate level, and many require equal to or even higher bio levels than some medical schools. No matter, one will still probably have to take advanced pathophysiology as well as cadaver anatomy or kinesiology, histology, etc. while in the PA programs.
> 
> ...



I fully agree Rid. After taking your suggestion and looking at (and going to try to attempt maybe) OUs PA program in Tulsa, I am thoroughly impressed with the program and 32 months for a grad program WOW! At the same time I am saddened because I will need to take a separate Physio course and a couple of other higher level bio courses besides the ones I have before gaining admission.


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## BossyCow (Dec 5, 2007)

Our local college required Cell Biology as a pre-req for A&P.  Odd to see them split.


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## Arkymedic (Dec 5, 2007)

firecoins said:


> A & P classes are pre requisite courses at every PA program I have looked at.  Yes the combined classes.  They do not replace the Anatomy or Physiology classes taught at the programs.



These are the two PA programs for AR and OK and their requirements:

Oklahoma University

Admissions Criteria
The Admissions Committee bases its decision upon an applicant's overall GPA, science GPA, number of overall and science credit hours, personal interview scores, types and quality of health care experience, personal references, score on the general test component of the GRE, and the applicant's written statement on why they want to be a Physician Assistant.The application process is highly competitive and completion of all prerequisites does not guarantee that an applicant will be offered an interview for final selection.

Basic Admission Requirements 

1.  A minimum of 90 semester hours from an accredited college or university including the prerequisites listed below.  All prerequisites must be completed by the end of the spring semester prior to starting the PA Program.

Listed below are the University of Oklahoma course prerequisites for the PA Program.  Please visit http://www.ou.edu/admrec/tetables.htm for questions regarding course transfers from other colleges and universities.

2.  A minimum grade point average of 2.75 on a 4.0 scale.

3.  Good standing with the college or university last attended or currently enrolled.

4.  Complete application for admission at https://app.applyyourself.com/?id=uok-hs.

5.  Three letters of reference (one or more should be from a physician or PA).

6.  One page typewritten statement on “Why I Wish to Become a Physician Associate.”

7.  Resume

8.  Must take the general test component of the GRE.  All GRE scores must be received by the PA Program by the October 1st deadline, therefore applicants are encouraged to take the test no later than September 1st.  Information regarding the GRE can be obtained at www.gre.org. 

It is the applicant’s responsibility to make sure all requirements are turned in prior to the October 1 deadline.  You can check the status of your application at http://ouhsc.edu/students/student_info/ApplicationStatus/logon.cfm.

PA Prerequisites

Principles of English Composition I
Principles of English Composition II
U.S. History 1492 to 1865 -OR- U.S. History 1865 to Present 
Government of the United States 
College Algebra 
Introduction to Psychology
Psychology elective 
General Chemistry I  
General Chemistry II 
Physics Non-Science Major -OR-Physics Life Science”
Human Anatomy 
Human Physiology 
Intro Microbiologyology 
Pathogenic Microbiology  (Immunology or Virology will substitute)  

-------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Harding University Searcy, AR

All Applicants Must:

Possess a baccalaureate degree from a regionally accredited institution in the United States prior to matriculation into the program. 
Complete the Graduate Record Examination (GRE) General Test after January 1, 2003. No minimum score required. The GRE requirement is waived for those who have completed a graduate degree by November 1, 2007. 
Meet all general requirements for admission to, and agree to abide by all policies and procedures for, graduate programs at Harding University. All graduate students at Harding University are expected to maintain the highest standards of morality, integrity, orderliness and personal honor. Harding University reserves the right to refuse admittance or dismiss any student whose lifestyle is not consistent with the Christian principles that this university represents. This is from the Graduate Catalog which can be viewed online at (www.harding.edu/gradcatalog/). 
Have an academic record of performance at the undergraduate level that is predictive of academic success and professional achievement as a Physician Assistant. The minimum cumulative undergraduate GPA should be 3.0 on a 4-point scale. Written appeals of this requirement must be made to the program director and submitted directly to the program at the time of your application: H.U. PA Program Box 12231
Searcy, AR 72149-2231 

Academic Prerequisite Course Work:
Prerequisite courses must be completed at a regionally accredited U.S. college or university with a prerequisite GPA of 3.0 on a 4 point scale. All prerequisite course grades must be a C or higher. A minimum of three (3) semester hours/units or four (4) quarter hours/units is required for each course.

Inorganic Chemistry * - HU course: CHEM 121 
Organic Chemistry * - HU course: CHEM 215/CHEM 216 or CHEM 249 
Microbiology * - HU course: BIOL 271 
Human Anatomy & Physiology* (minimum 6 semester hours and 2 semesters) - HU courses: BIOL 249 & BIOL 253. For schools that do not offer human anatomy and physiology, course work that is comparable to BIOL 261-Vertebrate Morphology and BIOL 280-Animal Physiology will be accepted. 
College Algebra or Calculus I – HU course: MATH 151 or MATH 201 
General or Developmental Psychology - HU course: PSY 201 or PSY 240 
* Acceptable courses must be designated as counting toward a science major, and must include a laboratory

All applicants must pass, with a score of 75% or better, a written exam in medical terminology given at the time of the interview.


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## JJR512 (Dec 5, 2007)

On a side note, UMBC (University of Maryland - Baltimore County) offers a four-year BS program in Emergency Health Services. One of the paths available in this program culminates with a BS degree as a Paramedic (another path is for EMS management). Here is a list of the four-year paramedic program's biology/science components:

Chemistry I
Concepts in Biology
Concepts in Biology Lab
Chemistry II
Chemistry Lab
Anatomy & Physiology I
Anatomy & Physiology I Lab
Anatomy & Physiology II
Anatomy & Physiology II Lab
Anyone interested in seeing this school's complete sample Paramedic path schedule: http://ehs.umbc.edu/UndergraduateProgram/SampleParamedicSchedule.doc A brief overview of the program can be seen here: http://ehs.umbc.edu/UndergraduateProgram/Paramedic.htm. I'd be interested in hearing comments on the four-year program. I can think of a few of you who will say something to the effect that the BS program will make a much better Paramedic than the abbreviated and constricted two-year AAS program. (And I have no doubt that this opinion is absolutely correct.)


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## firecoins (Dec 5, 2007)

*re: Arkymedic*

SUNY Downstate PA admission criteria includes 8 credits in A&P.  
http://sls.downstate.edu/admissions/chrp/pa/criteria.html
I got more examples but many unversities don't offer A&P as separte classes making it nearly impossible to fulfill them in such a manner.  I am sure I applied to the programs mentioned in your post they would accept A&P I & II as offered.  Either way undergrad A&P don't substitute for the A&P classes taught in PA school either together or separate.  PA school is suppossed to prepare you for the PANCE exam. A&P for PAs gets really deep into the subject often training with med students if there is a sister medical school.  Remember PANCE is better than no PANCE.

You can consult the PAs on www.physicianassistantforum.com for question on what PA schools accept


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## Ridryder911 (Dec 5, 2007)

firecoins said:


> SUNY Downstate PA admission criteria includes 8 credits in A&P.
> http://sls.downstate.edu/admissions/chrp/pa/criteria.html
> I got more examples but many universities don't offer A&P as separate classes making it nearly impossible to fulfill them in such a manner.  I am sure I applied to the programs mentioned in your post they would accept A&P I & II as offered.  Either way undergrad A&P don't substitute for the A&P classes taught in PA school either together or separate.  PA school is supposed to prepare you for the PANCE exam. A&P for PAs gets really deep into the subject often training with med students if there is a sister medical school.  Remember PANCE is better than no PANCE.
> 
> You can consult the PAs on www.physicianassistantforum.com for question on what PA schools accept



Actually, Oklahoma University and some others does not accept A & P II as an anatomy class, and only will accept the A & P I as an basic anatomy class. They will they honor the A & P II as another biology course (not physiology). Similar to the one I attended, also required a separate human physiology course as well. One can take a separate course at multiple universities. Usually, they are 300 or 400 level courses. Where as A & P are 100 or 200 level. 

I know of PA's that never had anatomy before entering some P.A. programs. Some may have a degree in Chemistry, Biology (zoology, anthropology) before entering a P.A. program. Again, it all depends upon the program and their specific requirements. 

Remember after one takes the P.A.-C; NCCPA (PANCE) exam they have to renew by retesting the exam every 6 years for  renewal. http://www.nccpa.net/Resources_faqs.aspx#PANCE 
We thought we had it bad. 

In regards to the four year degree Paramedic, it is similar to a BSN. Still two years are committed to clinical practice, the remainder is geared to a speciality. Will it make one better in clinical practice, possibly, it will not hurt for certain. 

R/r 911


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## JJR512 (Dec 6, 2007)

Ridryder911 said:


> In regards to the four year degree Paramedic, it is similar to a BSN. Still two years are committed to clinical practice, the remainder is geared to a speciality. Will it make one better in clinical practice, possibly, it will not hurt for certain.


I don't know about the remainder being geared to a specialty. Unless I'm misunderstanding you (entirely possible), but you make it seem like it's the same as a two-year AAS degree plus two years of specialty studies. Looking at that sample schedule I linked to earlier, it looks like there are a few more general education classes not included in the two-yr. program ("Freshman Seminar", "Living Learning Experience", plus sociology and statistics, neither of which were required at either community college paramedic program I looked at). There are indeed some EMS specialty classes, like "Special Populations in EMS", and "Financial Management & Budgeting" and "Supervision & Operations" (I'm assuming those are related to EMS management judging by the course number prefix being the same as the other EMS classes). There is a slightly heavier emphasis on psychology with the inclusion of Abnormal Psychology in the program, whereas the two-yr. program only includes Introduction to Psychology. So what I'm saying is that although there are some specialty classes included, I don't think it's two whole years' worth. Some of the extra two years is more general education, some of it is special topics in EMS, but I think a lot of it is more time spent on the same topics that make up the two-yr. program.


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## rmellish (Dec 6, 2007)

A&P is the way to go.

I'm guessing human bio will function more on individual cell functions as well as genetics. I'd guess A&P would be far more applicable to a medic program.


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