# Obese Woman Dragged From Home, Hauled Away After Death



## Kookaburra (May 21, 2009)

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/19517549/detail.html



> INDIANAPOLIS -- The Marion County Coroner's Office has come under fire after it was revealed that an obese woman was dragged from her home and hauled away on a trailer in front of family members following her death.



My question is- in the article, a person from the coroner's office says, "He said that fire and medical personnel have equipment available for handling patients up to 1,000 pounds and that moving obese individuals is not all that rare of an occurrence."

Your thoughts? Do your departments move bodies when requested? Local departments will not transport DOA's at all.

My thoughts: This is going to be a more and more common occurrence, why doesn't the coroner's office have the equipment to do this? Why should the fire department have to come out and get the body?

Also, there are people in the comments saying you don't get that obese just from overeating - what medical conditions would cause that sort of weight gain?


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## Crimson Ghost (May 21, 2009)

Kookaburra said:


> http://www.theindychannel.com/news/19517549/detail.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...


did they say a cause of death?


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## Kookaburra (May 21, 2009)

Nope. No info on any medical conditions.


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## Aidey (May 21, 2009)

We don't touch DOAs after they've been declared, I'm not sure what the FDs policy is.


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## VentMedic (May 21, 2009)

Kookaburra said:


> My thoughts: This is going to be a more and more common occurrence, why doesn't the coroner's office have the equipment to do this? Why should the fire department have to come out and get the body?


 
FDs are often involved in body recovery for various situations such as fires, entrapment or community hazard such as an obese person in a building or many dead people washing up on a beach (common to South Florida).  A dead rotting body is not a good public health situation. 

Here is a recent story from California:
*Firefighters remove 800-pound body from hotel*

*http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/2009/05/20/20090520poundbody.html*

From Florida, 
*At least 11 dead after boat capsizes off Boynton Beach in Florida*

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-sfl-boynton-boat-p051309,0,7080428.story



Kookaburra said:


> Also, there are people in the comments saying you don't get that obese just from overeating - what medical conditions would cause that sort of weight gain?


 
Many things from metabolic to psychological or a combination of both.  Some young children are found to have eating disorders so severe the refrigerator and cabinets must be locked at all times.

Often the psychological factors also have much to do with the person's enablers.  A person may be constantly fed by someone who believes that is the way of showing love.  Also, how many times have you heard parents tell their young kids to eat everything on their plates if they love their mommy and daddy?    Children can become conditioned to eating for what they believe is love.   Also, as adults, enablers may over feed their spouses for their own security issues or the need to be needed.


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## Sasha (May 21, 2009)

One thing to remember is that not everyone carries weight the same. Equipment capable of carrying up to 1,000 pounds do not take into account things like where the body mass is accumulated. 

Have you worked with an LBS stretcher before? It's capable of carrying massive weight, but it's only two inches wider and some people still do not fit. The stretcher is capable of supporting their weight, but they just don't fit.

Also, could they fit their equipment into the house? Was this low income housing that often has narrow doors, tight corners and not a lot of room? Or was it an affluent neighborhood with lots of steps and stairs and knicknacks cluttering up the hallway? It's better to drag someone out on a mattress than to start destroying the home by cutting walls and doorways. 

Here's it's acceptable to use a tarp to drag an obese patient out of their house, I've seen it once.

It's not kind nor respectful, but sometimes kindness must give way to necessity, especially with someone who is obese and completely dead weight.


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## DrankTheKoolaid (May 21, 2009)

*re*

Typically we normally wait on scene, or have VFD remain on scene to assist funeral home if needed.  Especially with the larger bodies.  

As to the question on weight gain, thats a qood question.  i know thyroid and a few other conditions will causes weight gain, but not to this extreme. Plain and simple it's hand to mouth disease, worsened when the start wearing the knees out and are no longer mobille.   If they ant get up to feed themselves beause of weight, simply stop feeding them and they WILL get up to feed themselves and burn calories


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## Sasha (May 21, 2009)

Corky said:


> Typically we normally wait on scene, or have VFD remain on scene to assist funeral home if needed.  Especially with the larger bodies.
> 
> As to the question on weight gain, thats a qood question.  i know thyroid and a few other conditions will causes weight gain, but not to this extreme. Plain and simple it's hand to mouth disease, worsened when the start wearing the knees out and are no longer mobille.   If they ant get up to feed themselves beause of weight, simply stop feeding them and they WILL get up to feed themselves and burn calories



It's a shame people are so ignorant minded on other people's weight gain. Did you ever consider perhaps that in your vast medical knowledge perhaps you have just not come across the disease or disorder that would cause such drastic weight gain, and that it's not just simply a "hand to mouth" disease?


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## VentMedic (May 21, 2009)

Corky said:


> If they ant get up to feed themselves beause of weight, simply stop feeding them and they WILL get up to feed themselves and burn calories


 
That is where the enablers come in. There are many reasons to cause a patient to over eat which are medical. Once the brain is receiving abnormal signals from tumors or injuries, overeating can occur.  Those TBIs you treat in EMS may one day be that size.  

*Medical Causes *

Pituitary gland disease 
Pituitary gland tumor 
Pituitary gland cancer
Underactive thyroid
Prader-Willi syndome
Syndrome X 
Stein-leventhal syndrome
Laurence-Moo-Biedle syndrome
Frohlich syndrome 
Edema
Some brain tumors 
Familial history 
Craniopharyngioma (_type of_ Brain Cancer) 
Pseudohypoparathyroidism
Chromophobe adenoma
Encephalitis 
Comfort eating (_and_ Overeating) 
Reactive hypoglycemia (_type of_ Hypoglycemia) - overeating occurs to avoid going "down" into a hypoglycemic attack. 
Hypothalamus tumor
Brain injuy 
Third ventricle tumor 
hypothyroidism
Cushing's disease
diabetes
steroids
anti-psychotics
anti-depressants
seizure medications
some diabetes medications.


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## Epi-do (May 21, 2009)

I am not saying that the way this situation was handled was appropriate, because it is not.  However, I do want to comment about why the FD did not assist with the body.  

While IFD does remove bodies from vehicles involved in MVCs or house fires, they do not assist in the transport of bodies for the coroner in Indianapolis.  It just isn't department policy.  The FD has just recently acquired a small number of ambulances as different townships have merged with IFD, so depending upon where in the city this run took place, IFD may not have even had an ambulance.  For Center Township, the majority of IFDs coverage area, 911 EMS transporting units are provided by the county hospital.  I spent just over 3 years working for that ambulance service and can say that they do not transport bodies for the coroner either.

However, there are private service ambulances in the city that do have bariatric trucks.  Why the coroner's office did not contact one of them and request they do the transport is beyond me.  It seems that would have been the most appropriate/dignified way to move the body to the morgue.


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## VentMedic (May 21, 2009)

None of our FD or private ambulances will be used in the transport of the dead body(s) but the FFs will assist in the recovery of that body. There have been a couple of occasions where the ME has used a van or truck with a life get the body moved. It also depends on the condition of the body when found as to the best method for transporting or the circumstances of the death. You want to do as little damage to the body as possible. Sometimes when a body had been lying in a hot trailer for several days, extricating/transporting an intact body can be challenging. 

This is the downside to being a FF in Florida.


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## Aidey (May 21, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Here's it's acceptable to use a tarp to drag an obese patient out of their house, I've seen it once.
> 
> It's not kind nor respectful, but sometimes kindness must give way to necessity, especially with someone who is obese and completely dead weight.



Here that is an option to. The FDs all carry the large orange tarps with handles around the edges. If there is a large person that can not get up, but you can't get the gurney to them, they are rolled on the tarp and dragged to the gurney. 

Like you said, it's not kind or respectful, but there aren't always any other options besides destroying the house.


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## Kookaburra (May 21, 2009)

Would the private ambulances even be able to take the person? They would have to charge her family, and have no way of getting reimbursed. I doubt insurance or Medicare would pay for the removal of a body.


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## CAOX3 (May 22, 2009)

Aidey said:


> Here that is an option to. The FDs all carry the large orange tarps with handles around the edges. If there is a large person that can not get up, but you can't get the gurney to them, they are rolled on the tarp and dragged to the gurney.
> 
> Like you said, it's not kind or respectful, but there aren't always any other options besides destroying the house.



Is rolling and dragging somebody really ever an option?  

Especially a sick or injured person.


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## Aidey (May 22, 2009)

If someone is somewhere you can't get your gurney/cot/stairchair, and they are too large to pick up without that mechanical assistance what are your other options?

And I can't foresee ever rolling a patient (unless they were on fire! j/k j/k....), but dragging I've had to do before, and I'm sure I'll have to do again.


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## Sasha (May 22, 2009)

CAOX3 said:


> Is rolling and dragging somebody really ever an option?
> 
> Especially a sick or injured person.



How would you propose getting a very obese person out of a small house with narrow hallways and tight corners that you can not manuever a stretcher into?


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## karaya (May 22, 2009)

Aidey said:


> Here that is an option to. The FDs all carry the large orange tarps with handles around the edges. If there is a large person that can not get up, but you can't get the gurney to them, they are rolled on the tarp and dragged to the gurney.
> 
> Like you said, it's not kind or respectful, but there aren't always any other options besides destroying the house.


 
I've experienced this myself several years ago. Consider this to get a better understanding what the FD is dealing with. Take a full size double-door refrigerator and lay it down on the floor on its back. Now try to maneuver the refrigerator out a door, around corners, down halls, etc. and you will quickly see why the FD was forced to remove walls. By the way, the average weight of a refrigerator is half that of the man the FD needed to remove.


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## Aidey (May 22, 2009)

Oh! I see where you got rolling CAOx3, and by that I meant rolling onto the tarp the same way we roll someone onto a backboard.


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## Hockey (May 22, 2009)

Crimson Ghost said:


> did they say a cause of death?



Her heart stopped





Sorry, had to say it


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## Jon (May 22, 2009)

Sasha said:


> How would you propose getting a very obese person out of a small house with narrow hallways and tight corners that you can not manuever a stretcher into?


Take a window. Enlarge a door. Make a hole in a wall.

I've heard of using rental trucks with lifts in the back for moving patients interfacility. That could have worked this time, too. Using a flatbed truck is in poor taste.

Also... Although the County Coroner does all transports, we've had occasions where we've done the transport because we already had the body in the ambulance when we ceased resuscitation efforts.

The M.E. should have gotten additional assistance.


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## Aidey (May 22, 2009)

In some cases destroying the property may be necessary to rescue a living person, but I think it's less appropriate in a body recovery. Can you really justifying spending several thousand dollars to open a few walls and costing the family/property $10,000+ in repair 
costs just to prevent dragging a body?


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## Sasha (May 22, 2009)

Aidey said:


> In some cases destroying the property may be necessary to rescue a living person, but I think it's less appropriate in a body recovery. Can you really justifying spending several thousand dollars to open a few walls and costing the family/property $10,000+ in repair
> costs just to prevent dragging a body?



Exactly. Have you looked at the cost of a funeral lately? Add that on top of having to repair the hole you just made.

Also, in the case of not doing a body recovery and actually taking someone out to take them to the hospital... Would you rather delay treatment while you get the equipment and peronnnel necessairly to create a hole and then carry the said person out of a hole? Or woulld you rather roll the patient onto a tarp and drag them out? Which would be faster? 

To me, dragging the patient out is a lot faster than destroying their home.


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## Aidey (May 22, 2009)

It probably would be quicker and easier to drag in that case Sasha. I was more thinking of people who are up on a 3rd or 4th floor and there is no way to get them out of the house without opening a wall somewhere. And in that case, K-saws FTW. 

Realistically though, it wouldn't be safe at all for some guy with a saw to just start cutting. They would have to ensure that plumbing and electrical weren't going to be an issue and that they aren't going to make the structure unsound by removing/weakening that wall.


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## Sasha (May 22, 2009)

Aidey said:


> It probably would be quicker and easier to drag in that case Sasha. I was more thinking of people who are up on a 3rd or 4th floor and there is no way to get them out of the house without opening a wall somewhere. And in that case, K-saws FTW.
> 
> Realistically though, it wouldn't be safe at all for some guy with a saw to just start cutting. They would have to ensure that plumbing and electrical weren't going to be an issue and that they aren't going to make the structure unsound by removing/weakening that wall.



Which is why it could take too long. Some people don't have that long to wait in the interest of preserving dignity. As long as they consent to it, drag them out. Necessity must often give way to life preservation. They often know they are that big, and have come to terms with it and understands that in order to save their life they may have to be embarrassed or mortified. 

People (hopefully) don't do it to be mean, but sometimes there is no other feasible option.


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## reaper (May 22, 2009)

There are some that cannot be dragged, no matter how many FF's you have on scene. Worked one in S FL. that was around 900 lbs. We had no choice but to cut the walls out of the house and use a forklift to get them out. They had to be placed on a flatbed towtruck and taken to the hospital on that. There was no way to fit them in the ambulance. That on scene and transport time was 3.5 hours!

Sometimes you just have to do what needs to be done!


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## CAOX3 (May 22, 2009)

Sasha said:


> How would you propose getting a very obese person out of a small house with narrow hallways and tight corners that you can not manuever a stretcher into?



Like a seven hundred pound patient off a fifth floor tenemant built in 1920, with no elevator.

I propose you be creative. 

P.S.  It didnt include rolling him down the stairs.


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## DrankTheKoolaid (May 22, 2009)

Guess i need to put this in big bold italic letters.  Wow some sensitive people here.  I'm fully aware of the medical condition's that cause excessive weight gain.  On the other hand Bariatric surgery is a billion dollar business because it solves the #1 reason for morbid obesity, Hand to mouth disease plain and simple.  






Corky said:


> Typically we normally wait on scene, or have VFD remain on scene to assist funeral home if needed.  Especially with the larger bodies.
> 
> As to the question on weight gain, thats a qood question.  *i know thyroid and a few other conditions will causes weight gain*, but not to this extreme. Plain and simple it's hand to mouth disease, worsened when the start wearing the knees out and are no longer mobille.   If they ant get up to feed themselves beause of weight, simply stop feeding them and they WILL get up to feed themselves and burn calories


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## Kookaburra (May 22, 2009)

I was thinking about what we would do out here in the boonies if we had this situation - I think a (clean!) horse trailer, with the body wrapped in a proper manner by a tarp (not some dirty carpet) would probably be the best way we have to transport the body to the ME.

Though I'm also wondering how much those rigs racetracks have for lifting downed horses cost, and how easy they are to get. I mean, trailers aren't as expensive as a new truck.


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## Aidey (May 22, 2009)

What you've just said reminded me of a case in MO (I think it was MO, maybe someone else will remember this). Where a living person had to be sent to a vets office for an MRI because there was no MRI rated for her weight available any wear near. She sued for the emotional distress of being treated like an animal.


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## Kookaburra (May 22, 2009)

Did she win?


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## Aidey (May 22, 2009)

I honestly don't remember. It was one of those things I saw on fark and haven't given a second thought until now.


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