# Increasing public respect: an idea



## Kookaburra (Feb 28, 2009)

Maybe if the nifty t-shirts, decals, bumper stickers, and baseball caps with which EMS workers decorate themselves and their vehicles were spelled correctly the public would have a more positive image of the profession. Just sayin'.


(Seriously, I've been looking around at various emergency services duds on teh intarwebs, and I'm _appalled_. And I've had to restrain myself from taking a red Sharpie to some of my classmates' clothing. Ack!)


----------



## MSDeltaFlt (Feb 28, 2009)

Yeah, I feel your pain.


----------



## Kookaburra (Feb 28, 2009)

I could also do without so many cheesy airbrushed flame t-shirts with sarcastic sayings on them, but that's more of a YMMV thing.


----------



## VentMedic (Feb 28, 2009)

Kookaburra said:


> Maybe if the nifty t-shirts, decals, bumper stickers, and baseball caps


 

Next to FFs, which FFs are EMS in my area also, EMS has more of the above mentioned things than any profession I know. There are literally catalogs of these things. It has come to a point of embarrassment. The t-shirts that say "EMTs do it better" or "Paramedics do it better" have become such a joke that even a 90 y/o knows they are not referring to medical care. 

At medical conferences with mixed audiences, you can pick out the EMT(P)s by their silly t-shirts while members of other professions are dressed in non-distracting casual or business casual. It becomes even more disturbing when an EMT(P) who is a speaker wears one of these silly t-shirts and then makes a joke about being sure everyone knew what he/she is by the t-shirt.


----------



## Ridryder911 (Feb 28, 2009)

It is one of those ludicrous things I could never stand. Attending an EMS conference with those in attendance wearing a uniform. It is not like that no one would not assume that anyone would not know they were in EMS if they were in attendance. 

Ironically, I have attended numerous medical conventions and have yet found nurses or physician in scrubs/ lab coats attire to ensure everyone recognizes that they are part of the group. 

Being proud is one thing, but being tacky is another. Lack of professionalism is just one of the many things we lack in. 

R/r 911


----------



## medic417 (Feb 28, 2009)

But EMS is their life.  That is all they have so they want to look it all the time.  And the T-shirts are cool especially the trust me I'm a professional and the I can get you out of your clothes faster than anyone else.  

I agree why can't people go in something besides uniform or the ignorant basics save Paramedics t-shirts.  When I'm off duty you will have no idea I'm EMS.  I wear normal clothes. Yes normal clothes do still exist.  And if I attend a function I am in business or business casual depending.


----------



## Kookaburra (Feb 28, 2009)

Ha ha, I recently took the FireTeam test for another city's FD. I think I was the only one there that was wearing "business casual" (nice blue collared shirt and khaki pants) and not a FF/EMS t-shirt/jacket/baseball cap. But I was also the only female testing that day. Coincidence? I think not! 

I am going to be volunteering with my local FD (it's a rural, all-volunteer dept.) and I know I will wear <i>their</i> gear with pride when appropriate; but at least it's all spelled correctly, with no misplaced apostrophes. And no airbrushing!


----------



## karaya (Feb 28, 2009)

I attended four national EMS conferences last year, and quite frankly I do not recall that many people wandering around with the novelty type EMS t-shirts. I'm sure some were in attendance, but I don't think it was rampant as these posts would suggest.

As far as uniforms? Yes, those were numerous and I really didn't see anything wrong with the wearing of the colors, so to speak, at a conference. Actually, I thought this was a great way to meet and greet from provider to provider. On a couple of occasions I would spot a group whereby I was an acquaintance with one of their peers, thus allowing me the opportunity to make an introduction and chat.

I'm sure with many of them it's a sense of pride; and there is nothing wrong in my book with having pride for the provider you work for.


----------



## Airwaygoddess (Feb 28, 2009)

*One would think.......*

There is a strong difference being tactful and tactless..........  Also to be said there is a time and place for everything.............


----------



## VentMedic (Feb 28, 2009)

When I go to a conference, I also want to enjoy the time away from work. Even though the conference is medically related, it doesn't mean I have to view it as work. If I want to have a cocktail at lunch, I don't want to be wearing my flight suit or scrubs with a hospital logo. If I am one of the speakers, I would prefer to dress in a nondistracting way as not to take the attention from my lecture. Some tricked out uniforms can be just distracting. My favorite comment to some members in the fire departments is "What's the horse wearing in the parade?"


----------



## Aidey (Feb 28, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> It is one of those ludicrous things I could never stand. Attending an EMS conference with those in attendance wearing a uniform. It is not like that no one would not assume that anyone would not know they were in EMS if they were in attendance



When I was with a fire department we were flat out required to wear out class B uniforms to any multi-agency training session the department was sponsoring. The regional EMS conference, MCI drills, EMT classes, wildland fire classes etc. If we were at one of these events and didn't have our class Bs on and were seen by one of the officers we were asked to leave.


----------



## VentMedic (Feb 28, 2009)

Aidey said:


> When I was with a fire department we were flat out required to wear out class B uniforms to any multi-agency training session the department was sponsoring. The regional EMS conference, MCI drills, EMT classes, wildland fire classes etc. If we were at one of these events and didn't have our class Bs on and were seen by one of the officers we were asked to leave.


 
I can see this being a requirement for formal classes sponsored by the FD but "party" conferences such as JEMS should not have these same requirements. If you have paid for the hotel room, the FD has no right to remove you from a public place and conference that is open to the masses.   My company pays all my expenses but actually prefers we dress business casual instead of the flight suit unless we are representing the company at a booth or have the helicopter present.


----------



## karaya (Feb 28, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> If I am one of the speakers, I would prefer to dress in a nondistracting way as not to take the attention from my lecture. Some tricked out uniforms can be just distracting. My favorite comment to some members in the fire departments is "What's the horse wearing in the parade?"


 
I was a speaker at last year's the _IAFC Fire-Rescue-Med_ conference, as I am again this year, and I don't believe I saw one speaker in uniform.  Of course this is Vegas and just downstairs from the conference is the casino.  I think like you, Vent, no one wants to be in uniform while bellying up to a craps table.


----------



## Airwaygoddess (Feb 28, 2009)

Oh NOOOOO!!!!! Not Vegas!!  LOL


----------



## Aidey (Feb 28, 2009)

When they went to the regional FF's conference that was more than one day long they were required to wear their uniforms during the day/classes, but didn't have to when they weren't actually in class.


----------



## karaya (Feb 28, 2009)

Airwaygoddess said:


> Oh NOOOOO!!!!! Not Vegas!! LOL


 
Yes!!  And again this year!


----------



## VentMedic (Feb 28, 2009)

karaya said:


> I was a speaker at last year's the _IAFC Fire-Rescue-Med_ conference, as I am again this year, and I don't believe I saw one speaker in uniform. Of course this is Vegas and just downstairs from the conference is the casino. I think like you, Vent, no one wants to be in uniform while bellying up to a craps table.


 
Yeah, you never know when a photographer, professional or not, might be around. :blush:

I remember from just one Clincon (Florida) conference a few years back the FD had at least 5 divorces initiated from it.


----------



## Airwaygoddess (Feb 28, 2009)

*Yep!*



VentMedic said:


> Yeah, you never know when a photographer, professional or not, might be around. :blush:
> 
> I remember from just one Clincon (Florida) conference a few years back the FD had at least 5 divorces initiated from it.



OMG!!!!!  As my dad used to say... "Well that will learn you!!"   ** No photos please!!!!!   LOL


----------



## VentMedic (Feb 28, 2009)

Uniforms are magnets for photographers.


----------



## enjoynz (Feb 28, 2009)

I only ever managed to go to one conference in the time I was on ambulance (They don't hold them anymore, which is a pity). 
Not one person wore they're uniform, that I can remember.

None of the Ambulance services here (There are only 4 and 1 runs 80% of the country) have Tee-shirts at all.
When we do get together or train, (unless that officer is on duty) everyone wears casual clothing or formal depending on the occasion.
The only time we wear our uniforms, is when Management requests that we do so!

I have to say though, that it would be nice at a large conference, when you have so many different agencies,
to at least have a name tag of your service and region, as a talking point if nothing else.

Cheers Enjoynz


----------



## karaya (Feb 28, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Uniforms are magnets for photographers.


 
You dangling some bait in front of me?


----------



## Aidey (Feb 28, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Uniforms are magnets for photographers.



That may have been our chief's goal. We were a mostly volunteer service and he was always recruiting.


----------



## Summit (Feb 28, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> It is one of those ludicrous things I could never stand. Attending an EMS conference with those in attendance wearing a uniform. It is not like that no one would not assume that anyone would not know they were in EMS if they were in attendance.
> 
> Ironically, I have attended numerous medical conventions and have yet found nurses or physician in scrubs/ lab coats attire to ensure everyone recognizes that they are part of the group.
> 
> ...



I worked for an agency that would pay to send you to a conference, but only if you were in uniform "to show the agency flag."


----------



## JonTullos (Feb 28, 2009)

Airbrushed t-shirts are a huge pet peeve of mine.  I think it's extremely tacky.  If I offend, I'm sorry... but I think wearing these shirts while on duty is unprofessional.


----------



## karaya (Feb 28, 2009)

JonTullos said:


> Airbrushed t-shirts are a huge pet peeve of mine. I think it's extremely tacky. If I offend, I'm sorry... but I think wearing these shirts while on duty is unprofessional.


 
I don't think the discussion suggested anyone was wearing these on duty.  Just wearing them anytime, period!


----------



## trevor1189 (Feb 28, 2009)

JonTullos said:


> Airbrushed t-shirts are a huge pet peeve of mine.  I think it's extremely tacky.  If I offend, I'm sorry... but I think wearing these shirts while on duty is unprofessional.









What's wrong with airbrushed t-shirts?


----------



## AJ Hidell (Feb 28, 2009)

Summit said:


> I worked for an agency that would pay to send you to a conference, but only if you were in uniform "to show the agency flag."


LOL!  I'd rather spend my own $100 bucks than face the giggles, stares and ridicule that are given to the people who go to those things in uniform!  My dignity is worth more than that.  Thanks, Chief, but no thanks!


----------



## Aidey (Feb 28, 2009)

Some of us don't have that luxury. In between state licensing fees, my MICP refresher class, ACLS, PALS, BTLS, the 3 regional EMS conferences I went to, and a couple of NFA classes offered in my city, I'm guessing the bill for all my classes was about $1200 to $1400 over 2 years. I would rather get laughed at than pay for all of that myself.


----------



## karaya (Feb 28, 2009)

Don't sweat the comments. I think for the most part the uniform comments lack any validity. Like I posted earlier, last year I attended four conferences and I didn't see or hear people laughing, snickering or pointing at others in uniform. There were numerous uniformed people in presence including fire and EMS services with their equipment on display. All seemed to fit in very well.

Now the husband and wife teams with brand new matching EMS jackets, blue jean pants and holding hands. Well, that's a different story.

I'll be at EMS Today in March. I'll see if I can spot some to share here.


----------



## Shishkabob (Feb 28, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> It is not like that no one would not assume that anyone would not know they were in EMS if they were in attendance.



The hell did you just say?  


Quadruple negatives?!

Honestly, anything beyond "EMT/EMS/Paramedic" is not needed and just feeds the eccentric egos that already need no more feeding.


----------



## Ridryder911 (Feb 28, 2009)

karaya said:


> Don't sweat the comments. I think for the most part the uniform comments lack any validity. Like I posted earlier, last year I attended four conferences and I didn't see or hear people laughing, snickering or pointing at others in uniform. There were numerous uniformed people in presence including fire and EMS services with their equipment on display. All seemed to fit in very well.
> 
> Now the husband and wife teams with brand new matching EMS jackets, blue jean pants and holding hands. Well, that's a different story.



Nawww... We just make this sh*t up. Just google a little and you will find tons of pic's of local conventions. Usually, it is not the local whackers that will attend and pay several hundreds of dollars + travel fee to a national convention. Usually, it is the professional ones that have either paid services or similar arrangements that can attend such events. 






R/r 911


----------



## Kookaburra (Feb 28, 2009)

trevor1189 said:


> What's wrong with airbrushed t-shirts?




At least it doesn't say, "Emergency Medical Service's".

Whenever I see that, I always want to say, "Emergency Medical Service's _what_? Your ambulance? Your jump kit? _What?_"

Because that's what gets me more than airbrushing: misused apostrophes. That's what I _really_ have a problem with, EMS providers walking around with egregious misuse of spelling and grammar on their shirts.


----------



## karaya (Feb 28, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> Nawww... We just make this sh*t up. Just google a little and you will find tons of pic's of local conventions. Usually, it is not the local whackers that will attend and pay several hundreds of dollars + travel fee to a national convention. Usually, it is the professional ones that have either paid services or similar arrangements that can attend such events.
> R/r 911


 
Okay, it's a convention with some people in uniform and some not. Just what is your point?


----------



## AJ Hidell (Feb 28, 2009)

I have been to a LOT of nursing, respiratory therapy, and medical (real medicine, not EMS) conferences over the last three decades.  Not once have I ever seen anyone show up in scrubs or a lab coat.  Been to quite a few law enforcement conferences too.  Not once have I seen anyone show up in uniform.

The original observation in this thread was spot-on.  It's a whacker culture that simply does not exist in other professions.  A clear sign that EMS is not yet a profession.


----------



## Kookaburra (Feb 28, 2009)

Actually, my original point wasn't so much wearing EMS duds everywhere, but wearing _poorly edited_ EMS duds everywhere.


----------



## benkfd (Feb 28, 2009)

*What?!?!?!*



AJ Hidell said:


> I have been to a LOT of nursing, respiratory therapy, and medical (real medicine, not EMS) conferences over the last three decades.  Not once have I ever seen anyone show up in scrubs or a lab coat.  Been to quite a few law enforcement conferences too.  Not once have I seen anyone show up in uniform.
> 
> The original observation in this thread was spot-on.  It's a whacker culture that simply does not exist in other professions.  A clear sign that EMS is not yet a profession.



SINCE WHEN IS EMS NOT REAL MEDICINE!?!?!?!   Last I checked Medics can administer medication, intubate pt.'s, I could think of others but I'm not going to let myself go there.


----------



## rmellish (Feb 28, 2009)

benkfd said:


> SINCE WHEN IS EMS NOT REAL MEDICINE!?!?!?!   Last I checked Medics can administer medication, intubate pt.'s, I could think of others but I'm not going to let myself go there.



Apparently you're new here. Welcome. 

The discussion was about a lack of professionalism in EMS, especially when compared to other medical providers.


----------



## karaya (Feb 28, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> I have been to a LOT of nursing, respiratory therapy, and medical (real medicine, not EMS) conferences over the last three decades. Not once have I ever seen anyone show up in scrubs or a lab coat. Been to quite a few law enforcement conferences too. Not once have I seen anyone show up in uniform.


 
I couldn't debate you on this.  I've never attended any of the conferences that you have described above; therefore, I will have to plead ignorance.

However, the posts referenced uniforms at an _EMS _conference and it was suggested that people who attend such conference in uniform would be subject to ridicule, etc.  This sounds more a conclusion from your personal view and Rid's as well.  I just shared my experience in the last year at four major conferences and not once did I witness these accusations.  Nor did I hear any guffaws or comments from any of my associates.


----------



## trevor1189 (Feb 28, 2009)

I don't really have a problem with EMT, MEDIC, PARAMEDIC, etc printed on shirts. I am just generally against the stupid sayings on tshirts in general.


----------



## benkfd (Feb 28, 2009)

Ok! I guess I won't be so offended about it then.  Please excuse my newness to this.   All's good


----------



## AJ Hidell (Feb 28, 2009)

karaya said:


> I just shared my experience in the last year at four major conferences and not once did I witness these accusations.  Nor did I hear any guffaws or comments from any of my associates.


Could that be because you and your associates find the practice acceptable?

I didn't say everyone was laughing at them.  I said those who have some dignity and professional pride are laughing at them.


----------



## Aidey (Feb 28, 2009)

One might argue that people wear EMS shirts because they have professional pride.


----------



## AJ Hidell (Feb 28, 2009)

Aidey said:


> One might argue that people wear EMS shirts because they have professional pride.


Not logically, they couldn't.  Self ego and professional pride should not be confused.


----------



## karaya (Feb 28, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> Could that be because you and your associates find the practice acceptable?
> 
> I didn't say everyone was laughing at them. I said those who have some dignity and professional pride are laughing at them.


 
What practice?  The practice of wearing a uniform at an EMS conference?  If that's what they want to wear, then that's their business.  I personally have no problem with it and I could only assume my associates do not either.  Again, nothing was discussed among us.

Are you suggesting that anyone who does not have "dignity and professional pride" should be laughing at them?

You strike me as someone with measurable experience and intelligence in EMS; however, some of your comments and personal conclusions in this thread as well as others, resemble in my mind someone more akin to a bigot.


----------



## Aidey (Feb 28, 2009)

Maybe you haven't met anyone like this, but I've worked with some people who are genuinely proud of being a FF or EMT and they like to show it. They are proud of what they do and don't see any problem in "living the life" and showing what they do. 

Each profession has a set of profession related t-shirts, trinkets, decals, stickers and other paraphernalia. Both police officers and nurses come to mind as professions that also have a lot of profession related products, but you can find stuff for any profession.

Go to a website like cafepress.com and search for any profession and I'll bet you will find something. Police, Fire, EMS, Teachers, Garbage collectors, Salesmen, Mechanics, Scientists etc etc etc.


----------



## Ridryder911 (Feb 28, 2009)

karaya said:


> I couldn't debate you on this.  I've never attended any of the conferences that you have described above; therefore, I will have to plead ignorance.
> 
> However, the posts referenced uniforms at an _EMS _conference and it was suggested that people who attend such conference in uniform would be subject to ridicule, etc.  This sounds more a conclusion from your personal view and Rid's as well.  I just shared my experience in the last year at four major conferences and not once did I witness these accusations.  Nor did I hear any guffaws or comments from any of my associates.



I much rather be called a "bigot" than an ambulance driver. At least I am educated enough to know the difference of each. Just because I hold ethical and morale values higher than some others and wish those in the profession to become professional should not be considered as bigotry. 

The main reason you like such is you make your bucks off them. If there were no uniform and pretty patches for those glamour shots, what would we place in those texts? Amazing, very few true medical texts have to have such pics and they get the point across. 

Again, not to argue but how many local conventions did you attend? Sure large EMS usually does not bring out the "whackers" alike small, local ones. How many medics you know of (including myself) can afford to spend a grand or more on a three day conference, if it was not sponsored by the company? 

I have and continue to speak at many, yes; you are correct at the national level there is fewer and fewer. One way we have decreased the uniform locally is to have a "uniform day" so everyone can wear theirs. Even the smaller ones I have seen the uniforms decreased to the _"T-shirts and jeans"_ as you described. At least now, they do not bring their radios and scanners like they going to respond to a call 150 miles away. 

I don't personally don't mind the "PR" t-shirts such as from flight services, EMS, etc.. However; it's not that I will wear them out in public except for running, working on the house, etc. 

What irritates me more is to see the typical ....FIRE/RESCUE .... block letters on the back of the T-shirt. You can assume that their 4 wheel pick up with light bar and infamous "FIRE DEPT." front tag is in the parking lot.  

Alike what others state, attend other _professional_ conferences. As a speaker at other conferences such as even physician, nurses level and notice any difference? 

I have to use anecdotal and lots of humor to keep those in attendance thoughts focused. In comparison to nurses, physicians which want facts and data. In fact, light humor is appreciated but if performed alike in EMS, thought of as tacky and inappropriate. 

It is not that we should be so "up-tight"; but hopefully as we become educated we should demand and expect professionalism in our profession. If it is not taught from the beginning, and continued onward through the program it will never be expected. Hence; instructors should lead by example. Emphasis upon how tacky and demeaning such t-shirts and paraphernalia makes the profession look. 

My new famous "band wagon" is professionalism within EMS. Instead of a 5 minute lecture, we should emphasize it in every chapter. I know in comparison to nursing; it is reemphasized each semester and basically every topic from O.B. to Psych. Another thing we should not have to reinvent the wheel and could learn off others. 

Want to be treated & paid as a professional? Then act and be one. 

R/r 911


----------



## AJ Hidell (Feb 28, 2009)

karaya said:


> What practice?  The practice of wearing a uniform at an EMS conference?


Uniform.  Jacket.  T-shirt.  Ballcap.  Utility belt.  Whatever.



> If that's what they want to wear, then that's their business.


Sure, and it's my business if I want to laugh at them and make assumptions about their professionalism too.



> I personally have no problem with it and I could only assume my associates do not either.  Again, nothing was discussed among us.


As is your right.



> Are you suggesting that anyone who does not have "dignity and professional pride" should be laughing at them?


No, I am suggesting that many people who _do_ have dignity and professional pride will be laughing at them.



> You strike me as someone with measurable experience and intelligence in EMS; however, some of your comments and personal conclusions in this thread as well as others, resemble in my mind someone more akin to a bigot.


Your unprovoked *personal attack* is duly noted and strongly resented.  You had better know a lot more about me before you try to play that joker.


----------



## Aidey (Feb 28, 2009)

Rid I think I need a bit of clarification on your points. 

Are you saying that the Fire/EMS related t-shirts are unprofessional regardless of what they say on them because of the fact they are a t-shirt? 

I guess what I am not understanding is how wearing a uniform like a Class B or Class A to something is unprofessional when those are both formal uniforms. 

I could understand your point if you were saying that people in EMS are unprofessional because they often wear t-shirts while everyone else is wearing slacks and button up shirts. I wouldn't think someone was very professional if they were wearing holey jeans and a worn out t-shirt to a conference, but it has nothing to do with what is on the shirt, unless it's a naked woman or something inappropriate like that. It's more to do with dressing appropriately for the situation.

I think saying that everyone who wears job related t-shirts is unprofessional is a bit harsh and I think judging everyone like that is even more unprofessional in some aspects.

I occasionally wear t-shirts from a prior position I had and I promise I don't have lights, sirens, decals or anything else on my car. The only time I ever had any fire department related paraphernalia on my car was when I was a volunteer I kept my department ID in the bottom left hand corner of my windshield next to the VIN number. I did this because sometimes I was called straight to the scene if they needed a medic there now and the scene was between my house and the station. Keeping my ID there kept my car from being towed from the scene of more than one MVA.


----------



## Sasha (Feb 28, 2009)

The last confrence/convention/whatever I went to was Clincon. I went with my class and we wore school t-shirts that said "(School Name) EMS PROGRAM" across the back and slacks. 

I'd much rather see people in uniforms then the t-shirts with inappropriate sayings, dirty torn jeans, and cleavage (Both breast and butt) that I witnessed while at Clincon.


----------



## AJ Hidell (Feb 28, 2009)

LOL@butt cleavage!  

Are you talking about girls with hip-huggers, or fat dudes wearing a plumbers belt with an HT, two pagers,  a cellphone, a glove pouch, two scissors, three hemostats, a window punch, a seatbelt cutter, a multi-tool, and a MagLite on it?

In the near future, I expect to see tourniquets become a normal part of that list too.


----------



## medic417 (Feb 28, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> LOL@butt cleavage!
> 
> Are you talking about girls with hip-huggers, or fat dudes wearing a plumbers belt with an HT, two pagers,  a cellphone, a glove pouch, two scissors, three hemostats, a window punch, a seatbelt cutter, a multi-tool, and a MagLite on it?




Crap I was about to go to sleep but thats out after that decriptive image was put into my mind.  Thanks dude.


----------



## AJ Hidell (Feb 28, 2009)

Oh, I forgot the big fat key ring with the ubiquitous handcuff key on it, dangling from the Bat Belt, so you can hear them coming half a mile away.


----------



## karaya (Feb 28, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> Again, not to argue but how many local conventions did you attend? Sure large EMS usually does not bring out the "whackers" alike small, local ones. How many medics you know of (including myself) can afford to spend a grand or more on a three day conference, if it was not sponsored by the company?
> R/r 911


 
I think you misunderstood my whole point about the conferences. The four conferences that I attended last year were: EMS Today, IAFC Fire-Rescue-Med, NAEMSE, and EMS Expo. All are national conferences and all had numerous people in attendance wearing uniforms. I did not witness or experience, with my numerous associates, any form of ridicule toward the folks attending in uniform.

I feel your thoughts believing that anyone who attends a conference in a uniform as a "whacker" is purely speculative and highly judgmental on your part. Even your remark about the FIRE/RESCUE t-shirts somehow equates to a four wheel drive truck with a light bar in the parking lot is one that raises my eyebrows.  I do understand that these are your opinion and I respect that.

As far as the comment, "the main reason I like uniforms is I make my bucks off them", you are correct. All of my editors want and demand images of medics that look professional and the uniform does just that.  Far better than the t-shirts.  But, that has nothing to do with what they wear at a conference.  I could care less what people wear at a conference.


----------



## Ridryder911 (Feb 28, 2009)

Aidey said:


> Rid I think I need a bit of clarification on your points.
> 
> Are you saying that the Fire/EMS related t-shirts are unprofessional regardless of what they say on them because of the fact they are a t-shirt?
> 
> I guess what I am not understanding is how wearing a uniform like a Class B or Class A to something is unprofessional when those are both formal uniforms.



Not that I am against T-shirt uniforms. Since most F/F should be wearing bunker gear and covering that up. What I am against is the yahoo's that wear them to every eat out, visit to Wal-Mart, grocery store all because they want to be noticed. 

I even seen the toddlers in the same garb. Yep, a 2 year old wearing the same t-shirt and belt buckles. No, its not cute nor does it do anything to uphold your profession. 

I am not sure about all States but look at your State Troopers. Usually, one of the best examples of professionals and how to act as one. How many do you see wear.. "Trooper" on the back of their shirt? I bet you don't unless one is on duty. Most likely, you will never see them in a local tavern either. Not that they don't let loose, but they have standards to be held. Does one see your local cardiologist or better yet CCU Director wearing the same on the back of their T-shirts off duty? Doubtful you will even see any paraphernalia on their car as well. 

Yes, sure each profession has their own little "pride" stuff. Usually nurses have the teddy bears, dolls, plaques with poems and all the other "nurse" stuff that many may place within limits within their office as decorations. Even those are usually considered "tacky" unless they are used within reason. 

Again, look at other medical professions. (Sorry, again I hate to awaken some, but that is what we are) and see how many physicians wear... "Love a Doc" .. "I mend broken hearts".. on T-shirts or back of their autos. As a customer, what would your opinion be? I remember when physicians and attorneys could not even advertise for professional clause. Something, I wish they would go back to. 

For as that goes, how many times do you see your local Doc at the grocery store or local Target or Wal-Mart? It's not that they don't go but they don't go to be noticed and from what I know rather not be. Most even go at odd hours to avoid such. 

We have a long way to go before the general public will recognize us a professional. It first has to come within ourselves and the demand we place within our so called industry. Even simple things such as a clean tucked in pressed shirt, shoes that are polished, no profanity within public view, and placing the "big gulp" cup down while responding with L/S. 

R/r 911


----------



## Aidey (Feb 28, 2009)

Rid do you think there is a difference between the t-shirts and the Class A or Class B uniforms?


----------



## Ridryder911 (Feb 28, 2009)

karaya said:


> I think you misunderstood my whole point about the conferences. The four conferences that I attended last year were: EMS Today, IAFC Fire-Rescue-Med, NAEMSE, and EMS Expo. All are national conferences and all had numerous people in attendance wearing uniforms. I did not witness or experience, with my numerous associates, any form of ridicule toward the folks attending in uniform.
> 
> I feel your thoughts believing that anyone who attends a conference in a uniform as a "whacker" is purely speculative and highly judgmental on your part. Even your remark about the FIRE/RESCUE t-shirts somehow equates to a four wheel drive truck with a light bar in the parking lot is one that raises my eyebrows.  I do understand that these are your opinion and I respect that.
> 
> As far as the comment, "the main reason I like uniforms is I make my bucks off them", you are correct. All of my editors want and demand images of medics that look professional and the uniform does just that.  Far better than the t-shirts.  But, that has nothing to do with what they wear at a conference.  I could care less what people wear at a conference.



I respect your opinion as well. I do ask why is such pics in demand for text books? Is it because of tradition or truly the demand? I have no problem for some occasional (very limited) real photos but does every chapter have to have a pic? Maybe we have too many pics and not enough material contained within. 

Yes, as an educator I realize the value of learning from all senses and the use of visual aids but compare our texts with other medical text books. One can't say .. "well we perform more skills..." That statement is not true. Maybe we should remove all skill(s) within our texts and just have true theory text and then have a separate accompanying skills book. 

How much emphasis is placed on skills that anyone and everyone can learn with repeated practice is really needed? Would it not make more sense to be educated upon the whys and details of the topic and leave the skills for the lab portion. Skill books could be utilized then. 

Wow! Theory classes and then skills.... just alike the rest of the medical profession. 

R/r 911


----------



## Sasha (Feb 28, 2009)

> LOL@butt cleavage!
> 
> Are you talking about girls with hip-huggers, or fat dudes wearing a plumbers belt with an HT, two pagers, a cellphone, a glove pouch, two scissors, three hemostats, a window punch, a seatbelt cutter, a multi-tool, and a MagLite on it?



I'm talking about anyone, male or female, wearing jeans too tight or too low, with a muffin top, plumber butt or whale tail. (Add extra gag points if they have a hairy bum and/or back.) It's it so hard to find properly fitting, clean clothes? Some people may find it sexy, I find it embarrasing.


----------



## Aidey (Feb 28, 2009)

Another question for Rid, what do you think about the large number of FFs/EMTs who have Fire/EMS tattoos? (Visible or not)


Sasha, I'm going to regret asking this, but what is a whale tail?


----------



## Ridryder911 (Feb 28, 2009)

Aidey said:


> Rid do you think there is a difference between the t-shirts and the Class A or Class B uniforms?



Definitely. Class A, usually is worn for special events such awards, funerals, and special presentations. They do not appear as "special" without ties and appropriate coats, etc. 

I am glad to see most EMS removing themselves from the fire/police shirts as those with epaulets and badges and collar brass as a daily uniform. Nothing looks worse than an wrinkled, dirty, untucked shirt or worse short sleeved with undergarments being visible. T-shirts are practical in some areas where temperatures should be considered. Nice quality Polo style are better for working on a daily event. 

Alike many others I too wish we could design a more practical uniform. That itself is a dilemma that will not be solved for a while. 

The first step is to ensure that the presenter appears professional. As simple as that may appear stop and think about it. Is their hair groomed, clean shaved (yes even women ) and uniformed pressed? Especially after a long shift, what do they look like? Unfortunately, EMS managers are not concerned with their image they portray. 

This is something we have to convey and start ourselves. Management will listen, when approached right as in proposals and repetitive attempts. 



Aidey said:


> Another question for Rid, what do you think about the large number of FFs/EMTs who have Fire/EMS tattoos? (Visible or not)



Personally, I could care less. It's their body on their own time. Problem is; they are representing the company not just themselves when they are on duty. We have a NO visible tattoos policy and until recently under my pressure finally hired a person with a visible one. With the understanding they must wear long sleeves at all times.

I just wrote a policy and is of yet not approved but basically came form an article from _JEMS _. Tatt's cannot be displayed outside normal uniform visual . They cannot be seen and cannot be seen as "sexually motivated, racial, political" in design. 
The same as piercings and jewelry.   
R/r 911


----------



## Aidey (Feb 28, 2009)

I don't know about where you work, but where I work the standard uniform shirt is still the button up with a collar, collar brass etc. We are required to wear a while t-shirt under that shirt though (if you don't have one on you can get sent home and written up). We do have polo shirts, but the company doesn't pay for them and they are expensive so not many people have them.


----------



## AJ Hidell (Feb 28, 2009)

Aidey said:


> Another question for Rid, what do you think about the large number of FFs/EMTs who have Fire/EMS tattoos? (Visible or not)


Oh nos!!!  Run for your lives!  This thread is fixing to go thermonuclear!


----------



## karaya (Feb 28, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> I respect your opinion as well. I do ask why is such pics in demand for text books? Is it because of tradition or truly the demand? I have no problem for some occasional (very limited) real photos but does every chapter have to have a pic? Maybe we have too many pics and not enough material contained within.
> R/r 911


 
The increase in demand, at least for my work, came about as a result of HIPAA, which drove away all of the camera toting paramedics, EMT's, etc. several years ago. Many of the large EMS text book publishers started running out of actual scene material in their libraries a few years ago and therefore, the demand for my work sky rocketed. There are only a small handful of us capable of obtaining this material now and I'm probably the only full time EMS photographer in the U.S.

A lot of my work appears in chapter openers, which the authors prefer an actual scene image that depicts the chapter's content. I'm currently working on a new EMT and EMR textbook (you know the authors, I'm sure) and now my editors are getting more graphical in an artsy sense with the chapter opener photos. They are requesting very specific scene images to fit into a certain format for the book's design. A real pain for me!

Several recent EMS text books that are due out within the next year have had me shoot much of the practical images (splinting, etc.) which we shot in a studio. Boring work, but it pays the bills! A fair amount of my work that appears as an actual incident was actually staged due to very specific requirements by the author. I get a kick when I fool people with those images for they look very authentic.

I've developed close working relationships with all of the authors and that in itself I find rewarding. It's nice to exchange creativity ideas and they are very open to suggestions.


----------



## Sasha (Feb 28, 2009)

> Sasha, I'm going to regret asking this, but what is a whale tail?



Whale Tail: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Whaletail_oc.jpg


----------



## Aidey (Feb 28, 2009)

Sasha, I don't like you very much any more. I demand you pay for my therapy.


----------



## Sasha (Feb 28, 2009)

Aidey said:


> Sasha, I don't like you very much any more. I demand you pay for my therapy.



I should charge you for the mind bleach I had to use after looking that up for you!


----------



## Aidey (Feb 28, 2009)

You could have just explained it! I didn't need a picture! *shudders*


----------



## sir.shocksalot (Feb 28, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Whale Tail: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Whaletail_oc.jpg


HAHAHAHAHAHA.
Thats pretty funny.


----------



## Ridryder911 (Feb 28, 2009)

karaya said:


> The increase in demand, at least for my work, came about as a result of HIPAA, which drove away all of the camera toting paramedics, EMT's, etc. several years ago. Many of the large EMS text book publishers started running out of actual scene material in their libraries a few years ago and therefore, the demand for my work sky rocketed. There are only a small handful of us capable of obtaining this material now and I'm probably the only full time EMS photographer in the U.S.
> 
> A lot of my work appears in chapter openers, which the authors prefer an actual scene image that depicts the chapter's content. I'm currently working on a new EMT and EMR textbook (you know the authors, I'm sure) and now my editors are getting more graphical in an artsy sense with the chapter opener photos. They are requesting very specific scene images to fit into a certain format for the book's design. A real pain for me!
> 
> ...



Maybe the publishers and authors should listen to the educators. Do we see each skill having to have a picture within most related medical texts? Are we not educated enough not to be able to describe within a text not to have be demonstrated as we can now demonstrate per A/V and live within the lab time? How many true medical texts have to have pics of how to establish an IV (each step with a pic) ? Truthfully, are they effective? I have yet seen such as per teaching in the lab portion. 

I even ask why do we have to "dramatize" interest in the chapter? Would not wanting to know about the appropriate care be enough? Again, maybe this is why there is poor retainment in EMS. The drama soon end and maybe we should reevaluate our methods of education and instruction apparently its not working well. 

I am definitely for motivating students to learn, but maybe content should be more emphasized instead of glamour. 

Maybe we should emphasize the real workings of the job. How many pictures displays nursing home transfers, ITF's which really compose the majority of EMS daily business? Maybe we should concentrate on the real objectives of the profession and then add the emergency portion as "if and when needed". Emphasis should be placed that one should be very competent in assessing and providing emergency and critical care; but the majority of the business is other routine workings. 

Yes, it may not attract the numbers nor satisfy the taste of adrenaline junkies, but it would be the truth. Being truthful from day one is one way to ensure those that pursue this career realizes what they getting into. 

I do blame publishers for a lot of the poor education and promotion of EMS. They fail to listen to educators and even with the new curriculum advances with encouraging educators to develop their own objectives; the publishers feel "they know better". Really? Is what they have provided us for the past 40 years worked? Want to compare education and reading levels with other comparable health professions text? In comparison ours looks like a comic book. What would we expect the results be? 

Unfortunately, we have no true monthly respectable journal publication. _JEMS _had attempted to but each month has now began to place pictures over content. Comparable to its original competitor _EMERGENCY_ that most only used for reading in the John. 
As educators and promoters of improving education, we should compare ourselves with other successful health care professions. Review publications of _New England Journal of Medicine, JAMA, Emergency Nursing, Critical Care Review, Forensic Nursing, RC Journal_, and see how many "drama" pictures or even pictures are included within the text? 

I am not attacking you. You have a job to do and from your pics you do a great job. It's just time to review and see if what & how we are doing working? Again apparently not. 

Time for a change. 

R/r 911


----------



## karaya (Feb 28, 2009)

I think it is more that way then you realize Rid. Not all of the photos are glamor or drama. They have a very specific placement within the books curriculum. Many of the authors I work with are educators themselves (Bledsoe, Limmer, Mistovich and McKenna to name a few). Very well known in their field! The authors call the shots as to much of the books content and the publishers have a close working relationship with the authors.

On a recent book that was just released, the author included numerous special needs photos for the first time. These included images of patients on vents, special communication situations, etc. All images that would better familiarize a medic with a first time situation.

Of course the EMS publication industry is competitive and the publishers must lay out a book that will respond well with a potential educators. This is crucial in the success of the book and how well it stacks up against the competition.

By the way. I'm working on a new nursing book. Lots of pics in there too!


----------



## JPINFV (Mar 1, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> I respect your opinion as well. I do ask why is such pics in demand for text books?



Probably for the same reason my EMT-B book has a picture of a portable radio with the caption "A portable radio" in the communication section. EMS doesn't have text books, we have picture books.


----------



## PapaBear434 (Mar 1, 2009)

I don't know, Rid.  My wife's nursing books has just as many pictures of twice as many horrible things than my paramedic book.  My favorite was the geriatric care book, because it has stick figure diagrams of sexual positions you could inform old people they could do without breaking a hip.

It worked on a couple levels.  On one hand, it was horribly disgusting because you had to envision old people doing things that made the Kama Sutra look like a children's book.  But on the other hand, a couple of those positions those little stick people were pulling off looked damn fun and I want to try them.

Too bad the wife isn't a little more flexible.  And double jointed.


----------



## Ridryder911 (Mar 1, 2009)

I do have some with pics but they are only for the lab portion. Very little to any pictures were included mine (maybe illustrations) but artwork and hero pics are much different. 

Maybe we should have a more simplistic approach.


----------



## Shishkabob (Mar 1, 2009)

But she's a stick figure?   h34r:


----------



## PapaBear434 (Mar 1, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> I do have some with pics but they are only for the lab portion. Very little to any pictures were included mine (maybe illustrations) but artwork and hero pics are much different.
> 
> Maybe we should have a more simplistic approach.



I know we've had our differences, Rid, but I will NOT have you badmouthing Reading Rainbow.  You hear me?  YOU WILL NOT BESMIRCH THE GOOD NAME NAME OF MR. BURTON!


----------



## JPINFV (Mar 1, 2009)

benkfd said:


> SINCE WHEN IS EMS NOT REAL MEDICINE!?!?!?!   Last I checked Medics can administer medication, intubate pt.'s, I could think of others but I'm not going to let myself go there.



Oh, medication, intubation, and pacing oh my. Sorry, but real medicine requires an actual understanding of anatomy and physiology and the expectation that the provider will actually consider something more than the Ikea style of instructions of "If A is found, insert X into Y." Sorry, EMS is not a profession yet and the volunteers and fire fighters are going to do their damndest to insure that it stays that way. Things like college level A/P should be required at ALL levels, but as soon as you even suggest at that, both interest groups are going to whine louder than a baby who's mommy isn't buying them that shiny toy. Hence EMS will stay in its little rut spinning it's wheels.


----------



## Kookaburra (Mar 1, 2009)

I wouldn't mind learning BLS from LeVar Burton. He can toot my siren _anytime_. :wub:

Note to self: never, _ever_ start a thread about clothes again. Or tattoos.


----------



## Sasha (Mar 1, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> I do have some with pics but they are only for the lab portion. Very little to any pictures were included mine (maybe illustrations) but artwork and hero pics are much different.
> 
> Maybe we should have a more simplistic approach.



Where do you find this stuff!?


----------



## Sasha (Mar 1, 2009)

> SINCE WHEN IS EMS NOT REAL MEDICINE!?!?!?!  Last I checked Medics can administer medication, intubate pt.'s, I could think of others but I'm not going to let myself go there.



Real medicine requires real thought, not "If the patient is not breathing proceed to page six."


----------



## Aidey (Mar 1, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> Probably for the same reason my EMT-B book has a picture of a portable radio with the caption "A portable radio" in the communication section. EMS doesn't have text books, we have picture books.



Ok, so I'm confused here. 

You guys don't like the "simple" pictures in text books, but you also feel that EMTs should go straight into MICP school without any experience. 

So at what point are they supposed to become familiar with all this stuff? 

Maybe in a perfect world all MICP schools would have a variety of equipment so the students could become familiar with different versions of the same stuff, but not all schools can afford that.


----------



## JPINFV (Mar 1, 2009)

^
I'm talking literally about a picture of a portable radio just like this taking up a good 1/8th of a page. No labels, no nothing. If it seriously takes longer than 5 seconds of training at your first job to know what a portable radio looks like, then EMS is just not the field for you.


----------



## PapaBear434 (Mar 1, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> ^
> I'm talking literally about a picture of a portable radio just like this taking up a good 1/8th of a page. No labels, no nothing. If it seriously takes longer than 5 seconds of training at your first job to know what a portable radio looks like, then EMS is just not the field for you.



Taking up that much of the page tells me that the publisher was trying to pad the length of the book.  It's easier to sell a book for more money to a college when it's bigger and seemingly full of more information.  

And let's face it:  BLS, as it stands today, isn't all that complex.  It's mostly learning basic assessments, how to move a patient, and if it's bleeding you push on it until the medic arrives.  

Having a book with more 500 pages is easier to sell for a high price than a pamphlet.  

Now, if you're arguing that BLS should require more training and have a higher standard, we are not in disagreement.  After passing my BLS certification and actually starting on the road, I learned a lot of stuff just running as a trainee.  Things that should have been taught during class.  

But that pic of the radio?  Yeah, probably just trying to fill the page.


----------



## fortsmithman (Mar 1, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> ^
> I'm talking literally about a picture of a portable radio just like this taking up a good 1/8th of a page. No labels, no nothing. If it seriously takes longer than 5 seconds of training at your first job to know what a portable radio looks like, then EMS is just not the field for you.



Not only EMS if it takes a person more than a few seconds to recognize a portable radio then most career fields are not for you.


----------



## AJ Hidell (Mar 1, 2009)

fortsmithman said:


> Not only EMS if it takes a person more than a few seconds to recognize a portable radio then most career fields are not for you.


I think you may be overestimating a lot of people.  Recently, I went into a Radio Shack store to pick up some electrical parts, and I had a Motorola handheld radio in my hand.  The sales clerk saw it and immediately started trying to sell me "a better cellphone".


----------



## JonTullos (Mar 1, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> I think you may be overestimating a lot of people.  Recently, I went into a Radio Shack store to pick up some electrical parts, and I had a Motorola handheld radio in my hand.  The sales clerk saw it and immediately started trying to sell me "a better cellphone".



In his defense, a lot of handhelds do look like the old school "brick" cellys.  However, overall, I have to rate that sales clerk as ignorant.

I would have laughed at him.


----------



## Ridryder911 (Mar 1, 2009)

Kookaburra said:


> Note to self: never, _ever_ start a thread about clothes again. Or tattoos.



No actually many learn from such topics that off spring. You would be surprised on the IM and PM I recieve from those that do not post. Discussion that they never had thought of it that way; or wished they had been taught differently. 




Aidey said:


> Ok, so I'm confused here.
> 
> You guys don't like the "simple" pictures in text books, but you also feel that EMTs should go straight into MICP school without any experience.
> 
> ...



Simple, shut the doors if they cannot provide such services. Quit having classes and instead have a program! I refuse to teach at half-arse schools anymore! They make thousands of dollars per semester off students. Now, go compare the equipment in other areas of the school notice the difference? Many companies will even offer demonstrator models, but many instructors never ask or in touch with current equipment. We sometimes will receive new equipment before it even hits the market, they want students to want to work with such equipment so providers will purchase it. 

Not a perfect world? No. Just one that the industry should ensure that the programs if they agree to take the money from students they should actually know how to budget and purchase, take care, and to replace vital equipment to teach with. If they can't; they don't get to teach it. 

As a student I would be outrage if the institution could not provide me with the material and data to be abreast when I entered the job market. 

Yes, I put my money where my mouth is. I have refused to teach at a local EMS program locally and instead drive over 40 miles to teach at another. The reason? When teaching last semester I attempted to demonstrate the KED. The KED had no lift handles, the straps were so frayed that one could not tighten the straps, intubation heads were torn so bad the tongue could be seen on the side. I found out, the KED was the same KED I purchased when I was the program director over 19 years ago. Now, I figure with students paying >$500 for EMT and $3,000 for Paramedic; surely they should have a depreciation value and budget appropriately to replace equipment. 

I now teach with a program that replaces any torn and worn equipment immediately. Tools to teach effectively. Wow! What a difference! Not only for the educator, but for the student. I can say ... yes! It makes a difference. 

In regards to visual aids, I am all for it but let's be reasonable. How many pics does it take does it show how to place a BP cuff on a patient? To show fingers on a radial pulse? Again is it warranted because our target audience lacks the intelligence to figure such out without so much clarity? If so, then this is an added + to screen the applicants prior to being able to enter EMS programs. 

R/r 911


----------



## Kookaburra (Mar 1, 2009)

That's awesome, Rid. Our program doesn't even have working suction stuff. We get all of Nursing's castoffs.


----------



## Ridryder911 (Mar 1, 2009)

Kookaburra said:


> That's awesome, Rid. Our program doesn't even have working suction stuff. We get all of Nursing's castoffs.



Doubtful, that your Division Chairperson or President is aware of this. I would inform the instructor that you want working equipment or demand your money back. Next to the Program Coordinator with the same request then up the chain of command. 

Threaten to talk to the license commission or even news media... this usually gets their attention. Also make note that if any harassment of unfair grading towards you, they will definitely regret it. 

Good luck!

R/r 911


----------



## PapaBear434 (Mar 1, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> Doubtful, that your Division Chairperson or President is aware of this. I would inform the instructor that you want working equipment or demand your money back. Next to the Program Coordinator with the same request then up the chain of command.
> 
> Threaten to talk to the license commission or even news media... this usually gets their attention. Also make note that if any harassment of unfair grading towards you, they will definitely regret it.
> 
> ...



Most of our equipment was brand new, but a few things were old leftovers.  The stretcher we always used was something that looks like it came out of the back of the old "Ghostbusters" style ambulance station wagons.  All chromed out and pretty, but old looking nonetheless.  And the KED's and traction splints sucked.  Always missing a strap here or a buckle there...  

We reused a lot of endotracheal tubes too.  Granted, they are just going down the throat of a dummy over and over again, but after a while the cuff stops deflating all the way and the stupid thing keeps getting stuck on the epiglottis.


----------



## Aidey (Mar 1, 2009)

Rid I went to a University program and they were trying to shut us down because the MICP program was operating at a loss. As the program has progressed and was shown to be successful the University has been more willing to spend money on it. Private programs can charge whatever they want, but the University programs are restricted by the University fees and rules.


----------



## Kookaburra (Mar 1, 2009)

Oh, they're very aware. But until you're in the Paramedic program, they won't even return phone calls.


----------



## Hal9000 (Mar 6, 2009)

When I'm off duty I don't even like to wear clothes.  ^_^


Actually, I do like clothes.  When I go to conferences, I usually dress to relax, because I'm off from work.  And I can't buy lots of new nice clothes, because I've been afflicted with an acute and recurrent case of poverty.


----------



## ffemt8978 (Mar 6, 2009)

Hal9000 said:


> I've been afflicted with an acute and recurrent case of poverty.



So it would be chronic then?


----------



## triemal04 (Mar 6, 2009)

ffemt8978 said:


> So it would be chronic then?


Endofthemonthitis.  Horrible disease...truly horrible...


----------



## Hal9000 (Mar 6, 2009)

triemal04 said:


> Endofthemonthitis.  Horrible disease...truly horrible...




Both of you are indeed correct term-wise. Sadly, the cure for it calls for me to spend extended period of times without sleep.


----------



## ffemt8978 (Mar 7, 2009)

triemal04 said:


> Endofthemonthitis.  Horrible disease...truly horrible...



Name one good thing that ends in "itis"...:wacko:


----------



## daedalus (Mar 7, 2009)

ffemt8978 said:


> Name one good thing that ends in "itis"...:wacko:



Acute cholecystitis in a sworn enemy?


----------



## Sasha (Mar 7, 2009)

daedalus said:


> Acute cholecystitis in a sworn enemy?



That doesn't end with 'itis' that ends with 'emy'!


----------



## daedalus (Mar 7, 2009)

Sasha said:


> That doesn't end with 'itis' that ends with 'emy'!



Touche. Touche, my foil.


----------



## Buzz (Mar 7, 2009)

daedalus said:


> A sworn enemy with acute cholecystitis



Fixed it for ya!


----------

