# EMT thrown from rig; LODD



## Tincanfireman (Oct 10, 2010)

EMS LODD AT DOUBLE FATAL EMS CRASH IN ILLINOIS

www.FireFighterCloseCalls.com 

It is with deep regret that we advise you that a crash in West Union, Clark County (IL) has killed EMT Richard Poorman, 52, in the Line of Duty, patient Stephen Daugherty, 45 and critically injured others.
EMT Bill Crumrin with West Union EMS was driving the ambulance, transporting a patient and another EMT, Richard Poorman. A pickup truck entering from a side street slammed into the ambulance. Both the patient and EMT Poorman were thrown from the vehicle. Poorman was transported to Memorial Hospital in Crawford County where he was later pronounced dead in the Line of Duty. 

Click the link for more...


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## JPINFV (Oct 11, 2010)

Seat belts... not just for decoration.


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## boingo (Oct 11, 2010)

Assuming the patient and the dead EMT were in the back of the ambulance, and both were ejected in the accident, I'm guessing seatbelts weren't gonna help.


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## Aidey (Oct 11, 2010)

According to this it was the passenger in the truck that died, not the patient. 

http://jg-tc.com/news/local/article_97b97eca-d4dc-11df-90da-001cc4c002e0.html


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## abckidsmom (Oct 11, 2010)

Sad.  The back of an ambulance is the worst place to be in a wreck.  It just shreds.


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## MMiz (Oct 11, 2010)

So unfortunate.  What ever happened to AMR/AEV's concept vehicle with special harnesses in the back for medics?  I've seen pictures of services that use them, but clearly it hasn't caught on.


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## Veneficus (Oct 11, 2010)

MMiz said:


> So unfortunate.  What ever happened to AMR/AEV's concept vehicle with special harnesses in the back for medics?  I've seen pictures of services that use them, but clearly it hasn't caught on.



last i heard they didn't work.


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## abckidsmom (Oct 11, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> last i heard they didn't work.



From a seatbelt point of view, the back of an ambulance is a nightmare.  Heavy projectiles that need to be readily accessible, occupants who routinely refuse to wear seatbelts (raising my hand here, I try, but often fail to stay buckled for any significant portion of the ride), and a big giant heavy projectile barely secured in the middle of the floor.

Put those occupants on benches that are barely secure to sheet metal, riding side-facing to the forward motion of the vehicle, and it's no wonder that medics who are riding in the back during accidents are often killed.

I try to sit in the captain's chair whenever possible, it's the only way as an adult we can get the added safety of rear-facing.  Even if our seat is just secured to the sheet metal with 4 bolts.


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## Veneficus (Oct 11, 2010)

abckidsmom said:


> From a seatbelt point of view, the back of an ambulance is a nightmare.  Heavy projectiles that need to be readily accessible, occupants who routinely refuse to wear seatbelts (raising my hand here, I try, but often fail to stay buckled for any significant portion of the ride), and a big giant heavy projectile barely secured in the middle of the floor.
> 
> Put those occupants on benches that are barely secure to sheet metal, riding side-facing to the forward motion of the vehicle, and it's no wonder that medics who are riding in the back during accidents are often killed.
> 
> I try to sit in the captain's chair whenever possible, it's the only way as an adult we can get the added safety of rear-facing.  Even if our seat is just secured to the sheet metal with 4 bolts.



For the longest time, EMS has scoffed at the notion of safety in the idea of "helping the patient."

We watched ambulances get bigger, more room in the boxes, which put you farther away. 

As you pointed out, unsecured items. Manual lifting of cots. The list goes on. 

But look at the European guidlines for ambulances. They don't suffer from the same issues. They are built moe compact. They sit closer to the patient. Facing forward.

In another thread I tried at length to point out the risk/benefit of code 3 driving. Nobody wants to let go of their traditions. So people will continue to be killed for them. 

It gets harder and harder to feel bad for people who don't want to change when we keep reading about this stuff. Especially since we were talking about the exact same thing 20 years ago with the exact same solutions.


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## abckidsmom (Oct 11, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> For the longest time, EMS has scoffed at the notion of safety in the idea of "helping the patient."
> 
> We watched ambulances get bigger, more room in the boxes, which put you farther away.
> 
> ...



We're Americans!  We deserve the biggest and "best" of everything!


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## Tincanfireman (Oct 11, 2010)

It's something to consider when most European ambulances are Sprinter sized and they do quite nicely with them, yet our Type III's on van chassis aren't big enough, so we (the EMS community) embrace the concept of using the Navistar LandYacht to get granny to the ER.


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## abckidsmom (Oct 11, 2010)

Tincanfireman said:


> It's something to consider when most European ambulances are Sprinter sized and they do quite nicely with them, yet our Type III's on van chassis aren't big enough, so we (the EMS community) embrace the concept of using the Navistar LandYacht to get granny to the ER.



And here I drive a Ford E350 12 pass van as a family car and drool over a Sprinter.  Dodge could really do better with marketing that sprinter in this country.  It's a shame, because the Sprinter is really a completely different animal as the ford van.


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## usalsfyre (Oct 12, 2010)

First and foremost, let me express I'm very sorry for what the deceased's family is going through. May he RIP, and his family find peace in this time of tragedy.

Secondyl, I'm tired of seeing this. We need smaller trucks, better design, and less focus on how we've always done it. Bench seats need to be gone yesterday. Heavy projectiles (cardiac monitors anyone) need mounts. Providers need a real, honest way to secure themselves along the axis of travel. Monkey harnesses so you can move around the box are not the answer. A box where you can reasonably reach everything is.  

To the "we need the bigger boxes" crowd, the helicopters you routinely turf to have between just over 75 and just under 250 cu ft in the cabin. A Sprinter has over 500 cu ft of cargo area. Patient care still gets done on the aircraft. If the airmed industry and Eurpoe can do it, why can't we? If the answer is anything other than "we can" it needs to change. 

As an industry, we need to pull our collective heads out of out asses and *WAKE UP!* How much longer are we going to hypocritcally going to tell people to buckle their seatbelts, then ride around unsecured? How many more providers are going to die stupid, useless deaths? How many more times are we going to make widows and orphans in the name of "patient care"? These are not heroic deaths, they are needless. 

I will not applogize for these opinons. Think of me what you will, I don't care. Until we actually take our safety to heart, and not pay it lip service we will continue to die. We yap on here about violent patients and the need for PD to bag and tag them before we get with in a 75mi radius, yet we won't wear seatbelts and hurtle a multiple ton vehicle throught the streets so we can "save a life". The stupidity is really starting to get to me.


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## CAOX3 (Oct 12, 2010)

Dont the Sprinters have a tip problem?

I thought I heard that, I think more damage is done when your greasy side up, then if we stay upright and secured in our seats.


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## LonghornMedic (Oct 12, 2010)

usalsfyre said:


> First and foremost, let me express I'm very sorry for what the deceased's family is going through. May he RIP, and his family find peace in this time of tragedy.
> 
> Secondyl, I'm tired of seeing this. We need smaller trucks, better design, and less focus on how we've always done it. Bench seats need to be gone yesterday. Heavy projectiles (cardiac monitors anyone) need mounts. Providers need a real, honest way to secure themselves along the axis of travel. Monkey harnesses so you can move around the box are not the answer. A box where you can reasonably reach everything is.
> 
> ...


 
A fair number of deaths can be prevented. This particular incident I'm not so sure. The driver's side of the box was torn off. The patient survived however, so I'm speculating that had the EMT been seat belted, he may have survived(the bench was completely intact). 

As to smaller ambulances, Europe may have them, but their population also drives comparably sized vehicles too. Europeans also tend to be shorter and smaller in stature than Americans. I've worked in the back of a Sprinter when we tested them. Very small in my opinion(I'm 6' 3"). They make American type 2's look huge by comparison. I've worked in Type 1,2,3 and medium chassis. I think that type 1 and 3's are perfectly suited and safe for EMS. Medium chassis rigs are too big and completely unnecessary. If the ambulance industry would improve their construction materials and designs, we could make strides in reducing injury and death. Simple things like securing all equipment in the patient compartment can be done at the local level. Most importantly is proper emergency and non-emergency training. Most of the private ambulance and volly agencies offer very little in formal training. State mandated minimum hours and continuing ed for emergency vehicle driving would go along ways in preventing death and injury.


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## LonghornMedic (Oct 12, 2010)

CAOX3 said:


> Dont the Sprinters have a tip problem?
> 
> I thought I heard that, I think more damage is done when your greasy side up, then if we stay upright and secured in our seats.



No worse than any other type 2.


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## beandip4all (Oct 12, 2010)

abckidsmom said:


> From a seatbelt point of view, the back of an ambulance is a nightmare.  Heavy projectiles that need to be readily accessible, occupants who routinely refuse to wear seatbelts (raising my hand here, I try, but often fail to stay buckled for any significant portion of the ride), and a big giant heavy projectile barely secured in the middle of the floor.
> 
> Put those occupants on benches that are barely secure to sheet metal, riding side-facing to the forward motion of the vehicle, and it's no wonder that medics who are riding in the back during accidents are often killed.
> 
> I try to sit in the captain's chair whenever possible, it's the only way as an adult we can get the added safety of rear-facing.  Even if our seat is just secured to the sheet metal with 4 bolts.




wow... wake up call to read all that.  :blink:


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