# Are San Diego City Paramedics Making Too Much?



## MMiz

*Are City Paramedics Making Too Much? *

_325% too much apparently._


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## medicstudent101

Can't hate them for it. Paramedics are grossly underpaid sadly enough. So if those paramedics are making an ungodly amount, kudos out to their system B)


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## DesertMedic66

It seemed like they are talking just about firefighters in general. I don't live in SD but it's pretty much the same here. Starting pay for medic is around $16/hr. Starting pay for a fire medic is around $32/hr.


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## terrible one

medicstudent101 said:


> Can't hate them for it. Paramedics are grossly underpaid sadly enough. So if those paramedics are making an ungodly amount, kudos out to their system B)



The private medics make around $9/hr while FF/PM make 325% of that.


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## DesertMedic66

terrible one said:


> The private medics make around $9/hr while FF/PM make 325% of that.



$9/hr? That seems way too low. If a medic makes that then what is the point when EMTs make around that same amount.


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## Anjel

firefite said:


> $9/hr? That seems way too low. If a medic makes that then what is the point when EMTs make around that same amount.



I am a brand new basic and make 9.58 an hour. Id quit classes if that was the case.


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## DesertMedic66

Anjel1030 said:


> I am a brand new basic and make 9.58 an hour. Id quit classes if that was the case.



I'm a brand new EMT also. Making $10.21/hr at one job and $9/hr at another. $9 is nowhere near enough for a medic. It's barely enough for an EMT.


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## terrible one

SDSME (rural metro) starts medics around 9-10/hr. That was a few years ago when I applied maybe it's changed but doubt it. AMR starts medics at 11/hr


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## MassEMT-B

Wow.. some other places start really low. I am a basic going to be starting at $12.75/Hour.


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## Monkey

Don't get me started on this article!  That moron on the city council is comparing Firefighter/Medics to General EMT's that have no Firefighting training.  It's comparing apples to oranges, no similarities... he's an IDIOT!


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## DesertMedic66

terrible one said:


> SDSME (rural metro) starts medics around 9-10/hr. That was a few years ago when I applied maybe it's changed but doubt it. AMR starts medics at 11/hr



I have never heard of a medic for AMR starting at $11/hr. EMTs in some divisions make more then that. The lowest I have heard for AMR starting medics is roughly $16/hr.


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## Monkey

Rural starts their EMT's at $10, medics make a bit more.  

Regardless, that moron on city council thinks EMT's and Firefighters are the same.  

The City of San Diego hires EMT's as firefighters, all the suburbs require medic to be hired as a firefighter.  He thinks because firefighters that are EMT's make more than the city contracted general transport EMT's that they are overpaid.  He doesn't THINK about the MAJOR differences between the two.

He was invited to a 1 day fire academy recently, he didn't show...  wonder why.


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## DrParasite

MMiz said:


> *Are City Paramedics Making Too Much? *
> 
> _325% too much apparently._


maybe the city paramedics aren't being paid too much, it's the private medics that are being paid 33% of what they should be making?


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## Aidey

Monkey said:


> Rural starts their EMT's at $10, medics make a bit more.
> 
> Regardless, that moron on city council thinks EMT's and Firefighters are the same.
> 
> The City of San Diego hires EMT's as firefighters, all the suburbs require medic to be hired as a firefighter.  He thinks because firefighters that are EMT's make more than the city contracted general transport EMT's that they are overpaid.  He doesn't THINK about the MAJOR differences between the two.
> 
> He was invited to a 1 day fire academy recently, he didn't show...  wonder why.



80% + of what most FDs do are medical calls. The other 20% of stuff that they do is not worth a wage difference of 325%. Even if 325% is exaggerated (which it probably is) if they are getting paid 1/6 of that number there is an issue.


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## Frozennoodle

My Company in Louisiana:

EMT-B:     $12.50
EMT-I/85: $14.50
EMT-P:     $19.50

Blue Cross Blue Shield benefits? Subtract $1 an hour from your pay.

New Orleans EMS:

EMT-B:     $16.12 
EMT-I/85: $16.94
EMT-P:     $21.18


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## EMTinSocal

Always consider the source. This "study" is comparing a FF/PM to an EMT. This "study" was conducted by Carl Demaio, a SD City Council member. Where is the data? Carl has tossed his hat in the ring for mayor 2012 and needs an easy ticket. Public safety salaries and pensions are an easy ticket. Clearly he has an agenda. This is not an apple to apple comparison. SD City FFers already earn lower salaries than comparable departments while Carl himself earns 200% more than comparable positions in the "local labor market". Read between the lines folks. Anyone who has been following Carl and his antics knows he has zero credibility.


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## Emt512

Medics are seriously underpaid for what they do, they deserve every bit! Hose monkeys and the medics with private companies. Im glad someone is getting paid


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## Aerin-Sol

Aidey said:


> 80% + of what most FDs do are medical calls. The other 20% of stuff that they do is not worth a wage difference of 325%. Even if 325% is exaggerated (which it probably is) if they are getting paid 1/6 of that number there is an issue.



What? So they should get paid ~$5/hr? 

Comparing private IFT companies to city 911 services is like comparing McDonald's to a five-star restaurant. One has standards... the other one doesn't.


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## HotelCo

Aerin-Sol said:


> Comparing private IFT companies to city 911 services is like comparing McDonald's to a five-star restaurant. *One has standards... the other one doesn't*.



What an awesome example of a blanket statement.

Side note: I wish McD's served shamrock shakes year round.


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## Aidey

Aerin-Sol said:


> What? So they should get paid ~$5/hr?
> 
> Comparing private IFT companies to city 911 services is like comparing McDonald's to a five-star restaurant. One has standards... the other one doesn't.



No, I think you misunderstood. 1/6th of 325% is roughly 55%. If the FFs are really getting paid 325% more that is insane, and even if they are getting 55% more that is a big difference for 20% of their workload.


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## DesertMedic66

Aidey said:


> No, I think you misunderstood. 1/6th of 325% is roughly 55%. If the FFs are really getting paid 325% more that is insane, and even if they are getting 55% more that is a big difference for 20% of their workload.



The way I see it (I come from a fire background) is that their job is also more dangerous. On top of all the dangers of EMS there is also the dangers of Fire. Here fire does not transport but they face all the challenges of EMS except transport. Most FF retire in their late 50s early 60s (from what I've seen and been told). I know an EMT who just got hired that is 72. I'm not trying to make anyone mad or start any fights lol. But for me a more dangerous job + early retire + shortened life span + more workload should equal a higher pay. I know EMS has it's own health issues and all that as well.


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## JPINFV

Aerin-Sol said:


> What? So they should get paid ~$5/hr?
> 
> Comparing private IFT companies to city 911 services is like comparing McDonald's to a five-star restaurant. One has standards... the other one doesn't.









Oh, and you're right. IFT likes to transport patients. 911 services (example, DC FEMS) likes to leave patients at home to die. 

Just checking, am I playing this game correctly?


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## JPINFV

firefite said:


> The way I see it (I come from a fire background) is that their job is also more dangerous. On top of all the dangers of EMS there is also the dangers of Fire. Here fire does not transport but they face all the challenges of EMS except transport. Most FF retire in their late 50s early 60s (from what I've seen and been told). I know an EMT who just got hired that is 72. I'm not trying to make anyone mad or start any fights lol. But for me a more dangerous job + early retire + shortened life span + more workload should equal a higher pay. I know EMS has it's own health issues and all that as well.




So the question is, then, would the city save money by eliminating EMS from the fire department and downsizing the fire department? 

Oh, and for the danger, I support no benefits for FFs and EMTs who die in car accidents when they aren't wearing seat belts or develop lung diseases when after a history of not using SCBA. Fire and EMS is dangerous, but a lot of the danger is taken by the individuals themselves refusing to use the protective devices available, which should not be a liability placed on the tax payers. So, sure, fire fighting is dangerous, but if a fire fighter gets lung cancer after years of consciously not using SCBA on, say, car fires, then that's their own fault, and should be their own money to pay for it.


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## DesertMedic66

JPINFV said:


> So the question is, then, would the city save money by eliminating EMS from the fire department and downsizing the fire department?
> 
> Oh, and for the danger, I support no benefits for FFs and EMTs who die in car accidents when they aren't wearing seat belts or develop lung diseases when after a history of not using SCBA. Fire and EMS is dangerous, but a lot of the danger is taken by the individuals themselves refusing to use the protective devices available, which should not be a liability placed on the tax payers. So, sure, fire fighting is dangerous, but if a fire fighter gets lung cancer after years of consciously not using SCBA on, say, car fires, then that's their own fault, and should be their own money to pay for it.



Even with the SCBA you can still breath in smoke. We only hook up to air if we are going inside the fire, near the fire, or if there is really heavy smoke. Tanks last for 15-20 mins if your lucky (engine carries a spare bottle for every firefighter). So if we stay hooked up the whole time we only get 30-40. Give or take a couple of mins. It takes 45 mins to an hour for the breathing support to arrive so we have to conserve air. Wildland fire you don't wear a SCBA but you still breath in smoke. Fire gear prevents you from getting burned but you can still get burned. It just reduces the risk. 

Downsizing would save on money. But then the community would start complaining about Fires response time (as what has and still is happening in LA county). The community would start saying "fire isn't doing their job so why are we paying them?" that turns into move downsizing, paycuts, etc. So yes it saves money but it's not worth turning a 5 min response time into a 15+ response time.


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## JPINFV

firefite said:


> Even with the SCBA you can still breath in smoke. We only hook up to air if we are going inside the fire, near the fire, or if there is really heavy smoke. Tanks last for 15-20 mins if your lucky (engine carries a spare bottle for every firefighter). So if we stay hooked up the whole time we only get 30-40. Give or take a couple of mins. It takes 45 mins to an hour for the breathing support to arrive so we have to conserve air. Wildland fire you don't wear a SCBA but you still breath in smoke. Fire gear prevents you from getting burned but you can still get burned. It just reduces the risk.



Then why is it so easy to find modern videos of fire fighters standing in the middle of a house or car fire smoke, often wearing SCBA packs, but not using them? Should I post some?

Edit: Also, comparing wild land fires to house/car fires is laughable as the amount of toxic materials being burnt is rather disproportionate as well as the ability for the area to ventilate, unless you're down wind.


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## DesertMedic66

JPINFV said:


> Then why is it so easy to find modern videos of fire fighters standing in the middle of a house or car fire smoke, often wearing SCBA packs, but not using them? Should I post some?



No need to post them. I've seen alot. I was just referring to how we as in my department would wear SCBAs. I've seen videos of firefighters fighting fire in running shorts. 

And wildland fires vary. In an open field with no trash it's not that bad. But in the fields that are littered with tires and plastic bottles is another story


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## JPINFV

firefite said:


> No need to post them. I've seen alot. I was just referring to how we as in my department would wear SCBAs.



Hence why I specifically limited my proposal to people with a history of not using them. Yes, it's dangerous. Yes, no mask is going to seal permanently. However, the mask or connecting does nothing hanging by a fire fighters waist and the city shouldn't be liable for their individual disregard for their own health. This, obviously, isn't everyone.


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## MrBrown

Brown thinks it is absolutely disgusting and an outrage that your Paramedic are paid such obnoxiously low wages.

Here, Paramedics are paid a *salary* - Paramedic makes about NZD55,000 and Intensive Care Paramedic makes about NZD68,000 pa for a 4 day work week with no overtime.


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## Aerin-Sol

Aidey said:


> No, I think you misunderstood. 1/6th of 325% is roughly 55%. If the FFs are really getting paid 325% more that is insane, and even if they are getting 55% more that is a big difference for 20% of their workload.





terrible one said:


> SDSME (rural metro) starts medics around 9-10/hr. That was a few years ago when I applied maybe it's changed but doubt it. AMR starts medics at 11/hr



Let's be generous and say that the privates start medics off at $15/hr. The complaint is that FF medics make 325% of that. Your argument, I believe, is that they should be making 55% of that... which would be just over $7.50/hr.


The $5 came from the $10 *3.25 = $32.50/6 = ~$5.  




MrBrown said:


> Brown thinks it is absolutely disgusting and an outrage that your Paramedic are paid such obnoxiously low wages.
> 
> Here, Paramedics are paid a *salary* - Paramedic makes about NZD55,000 and Intensive Care Paramedic makes about NZD68,000 pa for a 4 day work week with no overtime.



That is $44,093.50 & $54,515.60 for anyone else who is going to look it up.

FF medics make around that. Private services have few hiring requirements & can pay very low wages because there are so many EMTs (B&P) that there are always people just graduating school & needing experience, getting fired from another job, or who just can't get hired anywhere else. They also offer more scheduling flexibility (sometimes), and I know plenty of parents who put up with the low pay because their other option is to work 60 hours/week at the 911 service.


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## Aidey

I'm not saying they should be paid 55% of the $15. I'm saying they should not be paid more than 55% MORE. So instead of $15 +325%, $15+55%.


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## usalsfyre

Firefite, fire departments/firefighters tend to drastically overstate the danger involved in firefighting. It's in their interest to do so. As it stands, firefighting no longer even cracks the top 10 on the BLS job related death list. Furthermore, the death rate could be slashed at least another 25% (maybe even 50%) if the fire service would:

Stop responding in POVs at 80+ mph with "courtesy lights"

Realize a certain level of physical fitness is needed and stop using people with serious medical conditions because they're "good hands"

Stop committing firefighters to interior attacks in marginal conditions when the contents of a structure has burned/it's a disposable structure because "that's what we're supposed to do"

Commit to interior attack only when resources allow, otherwise fight it from outside


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## usalsfyre

More and more of these types of things are going to occur. If you think privates are immune, when it's revealed there's no scientific base for ALS care be prepared for reimbursement cuts. I suggest all of us start working on getting research in an area of interest published.


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## Monkey

Here's the thing... (ignoring that the councilmoron has an agenda)

He's not comparing the firefighter/emt's to the private medics he's comparing the firefighters to the private EMTs!!

The private medics and the firefighter/emts are a bit more proportional to the salary, however many of the firefighters I know are paramedic/firefighters.

The whole "danger" thing is over played... yeah there are times, but the most part it's routine, get called out, get canceled enroute, return to station,  yadda yadda

My beef is comparing their education and training to eachother to determine pay.

we know what it takes to be an EMT.  Most firefighters around here (due to extreme job competition) have degrees.  So they go to school, academy, etc etc.

In the corporate world you get more pay than a peer based on your education, why not in the fire service?


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## DesertMedic66

usalsfyre said:


> Firefite, fire departments/firefighters tend to drastically overstate the danger involved in firefighting. It's in their interest to do so. As it stands, firefighting no longer even cracks the top 10 on the BLS job related death list. Furthermore, the death rate could be slashed at least another 25% (maybe even 50%) if the fire service would:
> 
> Stop responding in POVs at 80+ mph with "courtesy lights"
> 
> Realize a certain level of physical fitness is needed and stop using people with serious medical conditions because they're "good hands"
> 
> Stop committing firefighters to interior attacks in marginal conditions when the contents of a structure has burned/it's a disposable structure because "that's what we're supposed to do"
> 
> Commit to interior attack only when resources allow, otherwise fight it from outside



Agreed on all of those parts. As for my area we are not allowed to respond to calls on our POVs with courtesy lights. 

And yes they need to stay physically fit. EMS workers should stay fit also.


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## exodus

FD's are starting Fire/Medics at about 50k a year SALARY in San Diego: http://emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=23387


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## 281mustang

exodus said:


> FD's are starting Fire/Medics at about 50k a year SALARY in San Diego: http://emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=23387


 Most Fire Medics start around mid 40's and I'd assume San Diego has a higher cost of living so that's really nothing to write home about.


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## mct601

Going back to the medics making $9 an hour and others saying $16.... what kind of shift are they working?

Here, a 24 hour EMT makes $7.46 an hour starting off, and a fresh medic I think makes $13. 

The 12 hour EMTs make $10.66 an hour, and the medics make around $18-20 I believe.

Lets compare. 


24 hours x 7.46 = $179.04 *per day*
12 hours x 10.66 = $127.92 *per day*

I would calculate the medic wages, but I do not know them down to the cent therefore don't want to post any false information. 

$9/hour still sucks, but is a huge difference on a 24 hour shift or a 12 hour shift.

also, the 24 hour crew is going to hit OT quickly. so my $7.46 turns to $11.40ish in two shifts.


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## MrBrown

How can these employers paying such atrocious wages expect people to live on them? 

Brown had always maintained some 100 hour course wonder wasn't worth more (and from a purely economic standpoint they probably aren't) but then you must consider Brown got paid more (even with conversion) working at McDonalds, and at one job that required about 100 hours of training which involved little responsibility sitting at a desk paid a salary of almost NZD40,000.

Is it they simply don't want to pay more so can choose not too because nobody is organised enough to demand more or is it because they can't afford to for lack of income? Brown remembers Medicaid pays about 10c on the dollar, not sure about the insurance companies.

Yuck


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## JPINFV

MrBrown said:


> How can these employers paying such atrocious wages expect people to live on them?
> 
> ...
> 
> Is it they simply don't want to pay more so can choose not too because nobody is organised enough to demand more or is it because they can't afford to for lack of income? Brown remembers Medicaid pays about 10c on the dollar, not sure about the insurance companies.
> 
> Yuck



Does it honestly matter? Why is it the employer's job to make sure that the employees get a living wage? If the wage is so unbearably terrible given the requirements of the job, why do so many people do it? It's not like EMS is the only field out there.


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## Aerin-Sol

MrBrown said:


> How can these employers paying such atrocious wages expect people to live on them?



They really don't care. Most people work multiple jobs and/or get some form of government assistance. Please don't think this is limited to healthcare -- it's true of many entry-level jobs here.


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## mct601

MrBrown said:


> How can these employers paying such atrocious wages expect people to live on them?
> 
> Brown had always maintained some 100 hour course wonder wasn't worth more (and from a purely economic standpoint they probably aren't) but then you must consider Brown got paid more (even with conversion) working at McDonalds, and at one job that required about 100 hours of training which involved little responsibility sitting at a desk paid a salary of almost NZD40,000.
> 
> Is it they simply don't want to pay more so can choose not too because nobody is organised enough to demand more or is it because they can't afford to for lack of income? Brown remembers Medicaid pays about 10c on the dollar, not sure about the insurance companies.
> 
> Yuck



multiple factors, from the requirement of little education to the high number of EMT-B/Ps in the work force. One thing I have noticed is that a large availability of EMTs will bring wages down, but a shortage hardly brings wages up. You could also claim that EMS is abused and doesn't get paid on a large amount of its transports. Its a combination of things along with the fact that our employers in EMS just don't care- we are meat with a patch. They find every little reason to not give us a pay raise at work. They work us long unforgiving hours. Then once we hit a high amount of hours to make our pay a little more comfortable, the government hits up with taxes because of the volume of work we've done 


/rant

EMS is getting recognition of being in the top 10 worst fields to work in, and top 10 worst paying. Time for an overhaul? hmmm....


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## medicsb

MrBrown said:


> Is it they simply don't want to pay more so can choose not too because *nobody is organised enough* to demand more or is it because they can't afford to for lack of income? Brown remembers Medicaid pays about 10c on the dollar, not sure about the insurance companies.
> 
> Yuck



Lack of organization is probably one of the main culprits...

EMS in the US doesn't know where it belongs... It is being pulled between municipal stand-alone services, fire departments, private services, volunteer organizations, etc.  At the federal level it is loosely overseen by the the Dept. of Transportation.

We can't decide what to call our selves... EMTs or Paramedics?  Pick one, please.  The public nor the media cares to differentiate.  (I would NOT want to be referred to as a technician... just sayin'.)

We can't agree to advance education... "A certification is just as good as a degree, but cheaper and faster."  Nurses abandoned that thought process a long time ago for good reasons.  

We collectively allow our profession to be usurped by another profession... One that actively advocates for low standards (see the strike down of the Advanced Practice Paramedic) in order to advance their agenda - self preservation.

We don't support organizations that advocate for EMS... How many here are a part of NAEMT?  How many EMTs or paramedics are a part of it, as a whole?  Maybe not a perfect organization, but how many others are there like it?

We fail to expand EMS.  The "E" is a small portion of what we do and has been so for a long time.  There is an opportunity to expand, to manage low acuity complaints in the out-of-hospital setting and better integrate into the healthcare continuum.   Instead, we just complain that all we do is "BS".  Yes, there are impediments, but we could work to remove those impediments.

These problems likely are just the tip of the iceberg...


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## emt seeking first job

*There is a lot they could do.*

They could lower the pay for probationary employees.

They could lower salaries of high level politicians and administrators.

Wouldnt the average person WANT paramedic to be a well paid job the best and brightest were competing for ?

They could do more random drug and integrity tests.

They could halt further increases. 

The real issue is the private sector EMS is underpaid, not that the public sector is over paid, IMHO.


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## 46Young

JPINFV said:


> So the question is, then, would the city save money by eliminating EMS from the fire department and downsizing the fire department?
> 
> Oh, and for the danger, I support no benefits for FFs and EMTs who die in car accidents when they aren't wearing seat belts or develop lung diseases when after a history of not using SCBA. Fire and EMS is dangerous, but a lot of the danger is taken by the individuals themselves refusing to use the protective devices available, which should not be a liability placed on the tax payers. So, sure, fire fighting is dangerous, but if a fire fighter gets lung cancer after years of consciously not using SCBA on, say, car fires, then that's their own fault, and should be their own money to pay for it.



Not so simple - in today's times, the better departments are NFPA compliant. We mask up for dumpster fires, car fires, we overhaul on air as well. It's unwise to come off of the piece already on air. Depending on the wind direction, you're going to take some smoke when pulling a line, throwing a ladder, whatever. What constitutes an IDLH, which dictates when we go on air, is clearly defined. It's important to conserve air. We click in at the last possible moment that we can. Should we be trapped, those breaths that we wasted by being a yard breather might buy us an extra few minutes. When you're trapped and waiting for RIT, and the only thing you're moving is your diaphragm, That minute or two of air that you would waste by stepping out on air can last five minutes or more.

As for car fires, we typically mask up before getting anywhere near the car. The exception to that would be when that fire is threatening an exposure. for example, we had on go off in a driveway. It was starting to light of a nearby tree, which would have spread to the house rather quickly. I hit the tree and the side of the house, masked up, and then hit the car. Not everything is so black and white.


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## 46Young

Two things:

First, the FF/EMt or FF/medic are responsible for two skills sets. It matters not if you use one much less frequently than the other, you still need to maintain proficiency to be able to do your job when you need it. Should rural EMS be paid less if they're slow and run a call a day?

Second, the average combo department has a 80/20 or 70/30 EMS to fire split. These numbers show the total number of fire incidents and athe number of EMS incidents. But that's not the whole picture. An EMS run (in my dept)will typically have an engine and medic unit for an ALS call, or one medic unit or BLS ambulance for a BLS job. Sometimes you also get an EMS supervisor for a cardiac arrest. A box alarm gets 4 engines, two trucks, a heavy rescue, one medic unit, and EMS supervisor, and a BC. There are other suppression units that require multiple suppression units. Each EMS run and each fire run count as one call towards the total volume, but one uses more resources than the other. Simple call volume ratios don't tell the whole story.

Also, as far as response times, if a pt is experiencing an MI or CVA, a three or four minute delay past the normal response time usually isn't going to change much. If you add that same delay to a fire, a lot can go wrong in that short amount of time. Fire gets plenty of BS calls just like EMS does, but fire also has occasional incidents where a timely response is vital. You wouldn't want to show up at a cardiac arrest 10 minutes or more after the onset, and you wouldn't want to be delayed in getting to a structure fire, either.


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## emt seeking first job

JPINFV said:


> Oh, and for the danger, I support no benefits for FFs and EMTs who die in car accidents when they aren't wearing seat belts or develop lung diseases when after a history of not using SCBA.



I do not agree with that.

If a public safety employee is injured in the line of duty they should receive benefits period.

If they fail to follow SOP or protocls of their agency, then they should be disciplined. Go after people who have kids without developing an income stream. Send back to their country of orgin people who illegally entered. 

That is the most prissy notion I ever hears, "you were not wearing a seatbelt so no medical care for you......"


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## JPINFV

46Young said:


> Not so simple - in today's times, the better departments are NFPA compliant. We mask up for dumpster fires, car fires, we overhaul on air as well. It's unwise to come off of the piece already on air. Depending on the wind direction, you're going to take some smoke when pulling a line, throwing a ladder, whatever. What constitutes an IDLH, which dictates when we go on air, is clearly defined. It's important to conserve air. We click in at the last possible moment that we can. Should we be trapped, those breaths that we wasted by being a yard breather might buy us an extra few minutes. When you're trapped and waiting for RIT, and the only thing you're moving is your diaphragm, That minute or two of air that you would waste by stepping out on air can last five minutes or more.



I get what you're saying, and that's not what I'm arguing. There's a difference between some incidental toxic smoke inhalation working outside, and say, screwing around on the roof in a smoke cloud without even a tank on.


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## JPINFV

emt seeking first job said:


> I do not agree with that.
> 
> If a public safety employee is injured in the line of duty they should receive benefits period.
> 
> If they fail to follow SOP or protocls of their agency, then they should be disciplined. Go after people who have kids without developing an income stream. Send back to their country of orgin people who illegally entered.
> 
> That is the most prissy notion I ever hears, "you were not wearing a seatbelt so no medical care for you......"



So, as a tax payer, why should I have my tax dollars support your poor choice of not wearing a seat belt?


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## usalsfyre

emt seeking first job said:


> I do not agree with that.
> 
> If a public safety employee is injured in the line of duty they should receive benefits period.
> 
> If they fail to follow SOP or protocls of their agency, then they should be disciplined. Go after people who have kids without developing an income stream. Send back to their country of orgin people who illegally entered.
> 
> That is the most prissy notion I ever hears, "you were not wearing a seatbelt so no medical care for you......"


Your basically saying "public safety employees" (which EMS doesn't really fit into well anyway) are somehow more entitled than everyone else?


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## AnthonyTheEmt

terrible one said:


> SDSME (rural metro) starts medics around 9-10/hr. That was a few years ago when I applied maybe it's changed but doubt it. AMR starts medics at 11/hr



I have an interview with AMR SD in a couple days. Ive heard their starting pay is $11/hr. If that is the case, then Im turning down their offer.


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## RanchoEMT

AnthonyTheEmt said:


> I have an interview with AMR SD in a couple days. Ive heard their starting pay is $11/hr. If that is the case, then Im turning down their offer.


That's more than San Bernardino Pays....


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## RanchoEMT

MrBrown said:


> Brown thinks it is absolutely disgusting and an outrage that your Paramedic are paid such obnoxiously low wages.
> 
> Here, Paramedics are paid a *salary* - Paramedic makes about NZD55,000 and Intensive Care Paramedic makes about NZD68,000 pa for a 4 day work week with no overtime.


According to Google Dollar Conversion, in American Dollars that's:
$43,934 - Paramedic
$54,318 - Intensive Care Paramedic

in San Bernardino County Paramedics start at $14/hr. This is sourced from a recently hired medic... Taking into consideration that medics make overtime(1.5) after 8hr... That Roughly equates to $33,600yr. gross.
After taxes Approx. $26,000yr. or $2,100 a month....

Just wondering... *How much More/Less do other locations including outside the states, pay???*


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## AnthonyTheEmt

So I just interviewed with AMR SD and they offered starting pay of $11.37/hr! As a paramedic! That is less than I make now as an EMT. Should I take this offer, or turn it down? Everything in me says no thanks. I dont want to be barely making it and living on hot dogs and top ramen. What would you do?


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## firetender

*The nature of the Biz*



AnthonyTheEmt said:


> What would you do?



It is a given that neither the companies nor the medics in them look at ANY position as long-term employment.

Your value in the job market is heightened when you are currently employed.

Take a position doing the work you're best trained for and then continue your search.

The way to enhance one's salary in EMS is more about taking advantage of mobility than anything else. 

But also consider if the service has a potential career track; don't stop at just hearing the starting salary.


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## terrible one

terrible one said:


> AMR starts medics at 11/hr




No one listens.......



Up to you if it's worth the low pay.


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## Handsome Robb

AnthonyTheEmt said:


> they offered starting pay of $11.37/hr! As a paramedic!



I make $12.15 an hour as a lifeguard supervisor in the summer and all I do is make sure the high schoolers aren't screwing around at work and deal with angry patrons...thats ridiculous I'm sorry to hear this. That's what a saturated market will do though.

My thought process is that, even with the lower pay, the work experience operating as a medic instead of an EMT will benefit you in further job seeking ventures with better pay. HOWEVER, can you afford to take the pay cut and how long before you can consider relocating to a better paid position?


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## DrParasite

AnthonyTheEmt said:


> So I just interviewed with AMR SD and they offered starting pay of $11.37/hr! As a paramedic! That is less than I make now as an EMT. Should I take this offer, or turn it down?


as long as someone is willing to accept $11.37 to do the job, AMR has no reason to raise wages.

sidenote: if you don't accept the position, I'm sure someone else will.


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## IrightI

terrible one said:


> The private medics make around $9/hr while FF/PM make 325% of that.



I can tell you that AMR VC medics are sitting right around 65-75k a year while medics with bowers are sitting right around 16-20/hr.  Possibly an emt spot is 9 bucks an hour, but I for one know that Im not going to invest my time and money into a medic program to turn around and make 9 bucks an hour.

EDIT: As a side note, the wages outside the state of CA are AMAZING.  Perhaps new medics out of school might want to look outside the state.  There are about four county services in the area of my school, (which is outside the state of CA) and brand new medics are starting at 28.50/hr, with the cost of living significantly less than that of a CA lifestyle; I guess thats why there a medics who have 15-19yrs experience with the county services.  There are some options to making a decent living as a paramedic.


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## alphatrauma

*Proportionality and reading comprehension*

The title of the article, and many of the responses here, have left me somewhat perplexed. Well, not really.



> Zapf and Councilmember Carl Demaio released a report Thursday that compares the compensation between fire department employees and employees of private sector ambulance companies. It found the fire department is paying salaries *up to 325-percent higher* than those in the private sector.
> 
> Source: Are City Paramedics Making Too Much? | NBC San Diego



Clearly the above mentioned percentage figure is the high-end of the gap scale, yet it is being quoted and tossed around like it is an absolute. 




> ... DeMaio has been calling for the use of ambulances and other response vehicles in place of fully staffed fire trucks as a money saving alternative.
> 
> Source: Are City Paramedics Making Too Much? | NBC San Diego





> ... He also believes the savings could also go toward eliminating the browned out fire stations and threatened service cuts.
> 
> Source: Are City Paramedics Making Too Much? | NBC San Diego



Hmmm, saving funds and curtailing cuts in public services. Sounds like this councilman certainly _does_ have an agenda. 

For the life of me, I still don't understand the practicality of sending engines on medical calls. [rhetoric]Granted, I haven't been in EMS long... maybe someone could enlighten me?[/rhetoric] 

Also, has the related report from the city council's independent budget analyst been released to the public? I'm sure a full review of it would add quite a bit more context to the article.


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## terrible one

IrightI said:


> I can tell you that AMR VC medics are sitting right around 65-75k a year while medics with bowers are sitting right around 16-20/hr.  Possibly an emt spot is 9 bucks an hour, but I for one know that Im not going to invest my time and money into a medic program to turn around and make 9 bucks an hour.



and I can tell you that you're wrong. starting pay for AMR Ventura county is around 42-46k a year not 65-75k. And I also can tell you that while bowers medics start at 18/hr on a 12hr car with 14 shifts a month it comes out to about the same as AMR Ventura yearly pay.


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## DrParasite

alphatrauma said:


> For the life of me, I still don't understand the practicality of sending engines on medical calls. [rhetoric]Granted, I haven't been in EMS long... maybe someone could enlighten me?[/rhetoric]


oh that's easy.  it stops the clock, which is from the moment the person calls 911 until "help" arrives.  it ignores that fact that the "help" doesn't want to be there, the "help" while on paper is qualified doesn't practice enough to be proficient in the skills, and ignores the fact that very often the patient needs transport to a hospital ER, not a non-transport vehicle to hold the patient's hand and say "don't worry, the ambulance is on the way."

Also, it justifies the FD positions, and it gives the FD more run numbers.  Plus, it's a better position for a politician to say "we aren't going to close your local firehouse that goes on 2 runs every 24 hours" but we aren't going to give the local EMS system the resources it needs to make it to your house when you call 911 within 8 minutes.

Plus, most people don't care about the local EMS system, don't care about the funding or staffing levels of the local EMS system, and actively insist that EMS agencies run with less and less funds, until the time it takes the ambulance to long to get to them when THEY have a medical emergency, than it's the fault of EMS that it took so long.

pretty easy to explain if you ask me


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## marshmallow22

If you don't like what agencies are offering for pay then look elsewhere.  Even if that means going out of state... especially CA!.  Besides AMR Ventura County and Santa Barbara, there is no money to be made as a private medic in So. Cal.  There will be NO FD's hiring any time soon, and if so they will be most likely picking up laterals from other departments in which guys are leaving due to city budget issues.  Get out of CA, be a real medic with real protocols, and get paid for it.  A number of states offer good pay with city benefits and pension for being a 3rd service medic or a single function medic with a fire dept.  Texas, NM, Florida, Illinois, Idaho, Wash. just to name a few.  As for AMR Ventura County and Santa Barbara, it's still AMR.  It's only a matter of time before Ventura and Santa Barbara county FD's push for more medic engines and/or squads and in turn AMR can reduce their # of units.  Before you know it, those counties will be another LA county AMR.  AMR hates their employees working 24 hr shifts and only cares about their bottom line (shareholders).  Once again, expand your horizons and get the heck out of CA!

My 2 cents.


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## ShotMedic

FDs are hiring just not the way they used to. They used give anyone with a Pcard a job. Now its just competitive. So you have to be a marketable person and build your resume and better yourself in the fireside as well as the medical side. To think that all firefighters are over being medics is a huge generalization! Some of the best medics is So Cal are firefighters. To have a engine on-scene first is awesome in my opinion. IF the call is BS then they can Cancel you leaving you available for someone who really needs your help. if its a CPR or the patient goes south then you have more then enough willing helpers who would like to jump in on anything you ask. Now a days most firefighters in So Cal started off running IFTs on a BLS ride then worked as a private medic. Then got to the moneyy spot on the big shiny red engine. Is there a ton of crappy engine medics out there who are over it? ofcourse. Is there a bunch of crappy single role medics who are over weight and can barely get up a flight of stairs? ofcourse. But is there awesome engine medics with great EMS knowledge? i think so. and same on the flipside.
 my $.02$


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## DesertMedic66

ShotMedic said:


> FDs are hiring just not the way they used to. They used give anyone with a Pcard a job. Now its just competitive. So you have to be a marketable person and build your resume and better yourself in the fireside as well as the medical side. To think that all firefighters are over being medics is a huge generalization! Some of the best medics is So Cal are firefighters. To have a engine on-scene first is awesome in my opinion. IF the call is BS then they can Cancel you leaving you available for someone who really needs your help. if its a CPR or the patient goes south then you have more then enough willing helpers who would like to jump in on anything you ask. Now a days most firefighters in So Cal started off running IFTs on a BLS ride then worked as a private medic. Then got to the moneyy spot on the big shiny red engine. Is there a ton of crappy engine medics out there who are over it? ofcourse. Is there a bunch of crappy single role medics who are over weight and can barely get up a flight of stairs? ofcourse. But is there awesome engine medics with great EMS knowledge? i think so. and same on the flipside.
> my $.02$



I agree with this statement 100%.


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## usalsfyre

How do you define an "awesome" medic? I'm not saying awesome engine medics don't exist, but I can probably count the ones I've run into on two (maybe one) hand.


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## LucidResq

They way things are, honestly, all of the good medics I've met have fallen into one of three categories:

Those on private services who are typically burnt-out and frustrated with their situation (they often are involved in contracts in which the FD has total control). 

Third-service or hospital-based medics who are generally in control at scenes, paid well and happy with their positions.

Fire medics who have an equal or greater interest in medicine in comparison to the fire stuff, who are mostly in the FD for the variety, job stability and unequaled compensation. 

I know quite a few people who are primarily interested in EMS but recognize working for a FD is almost always the best way to support a family. Can you blame them for turning to the "dark side"?


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## jgmedic

LucidResq said:


> They way things are, honestly, all of the good medics I've met have fallen into one of three categories:
> 
> Those on private services who are typically burnt-out and frustrated with their situation (they often are involved in contracts in which the FD has total control).
> 
> Third-service or hospital-based medics who are generally in control at scenes, paid well and happy with their positions.
> 
> Fire medics who have an equal or greater interest in medicine in comparison to the fire stuff, who are mostly in the FD for the variety, job stability and unequaled compensation.
> 
> I know quite a few people who are primarily interested in EMS but recognize working for a FD is almost always the best way to support a family. Can you blame them for turning to the "dark side"?



This. I love my job as a medic, I deeply care about better EMS education and about being an educated provider. I love my family and supporting them well even more. So you better damn well believe I'm working towards the one place in SoCal I can have decent benefits and pay for myself and them, FD.


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## usalsfyre

LucidResq said:


> Can you blame them for turning to the "dark side"?


Not really, but don't bad mouth me either for trying to change the horribly warped system that is most FD-based EMS, or for that matter probably 50% or more FDs in the US period.


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## sweetpete

DrParasite said:


> oh that's easy.  it stops the clock, which is from the moment the person calls 911 until "help" arrives.  it ignores that fact that the "help" doesn't want to be there, the "help" while on paper is qualified doesn't practice enough to be proficient in the skills, and ignores the fact that very often the patient needs transport to a hospital ER, not a non-transport vehicle to hold the patient's hand and say "don't worry, the ambulance is on the way."
> 
> Also, it justifies the FD positions, and it gives the FD more run numbers.  Plus, it's a better position for a politician to say "we aren't going to close your local firehouse that goes on 2 runs every 24 hours" but we aren't going to give the local EMS system the resources it needs to make it to your house when you call 911 within 8 minutes.


 
Couldn't DISAGREE more. Where I serve, our FD is 100% pro-EMS. We run ALS engines and first respond to the "serious" calls in order to back the play of our EMS brothers/sisters. We usually arrive first because we have more engines in the city than the county has ambulances. 

Not to mention, our firefighters are typically in 110% better physical shape than 3/4 of the ambulance medics that arrive. In addition to "holding a patient's hand" (which, by the way, isn't always a bad thing) we start/interpret EKGs, start a line, provide first line cardiac drugs,package and load the patient, etc... The only service we don't provide that the medic unit does is the actual transport. Even then, we'll ride in on ANY call the in-charge medic asks us to. Often times, we'll even offer if the patient seems "iffy".

When EMS and Fire play nicely, it's like a ballet. But when you have people who don't respect the other side equally, it becomes a mosh pit. Sorry if you don't agree. But that's a fact. To even say that a FD is trying to "pad" there numbers by adding EMS to the mix is just ignorant. Ask the patient or the parent of the patient who called 911 and they'll tell you....."the sound of a Q2 on a fire truck rounding the corner is like an angel singing". They don't care who shows up first, as long as someone CAPABLE is there to help, which I can say with NO hesitation, our firefighters are more than capable.


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## JPINFV

sweetpete said:


> Couldn't DISAGREE more. Where I serve, our FD is 100% pro-EMS. We run ALS engines and first respond to the "serious" calls in order to back the play of our EMS brothers/sisters. We usually arrive first because we have more engines in the city than the county has ambulances.



Are there enough low use procedures (e.g. intubations) to support both FD and EMS paramedics? 

So no one complains when an EMS run comes in? 

No one is forced to become a paramedic, either officially or in order to be competitive for hiring (de facto required)? 

Is there an actual need for paramedic first response? After all, not everyone in the hospital is a physician. 



> Not to mention, our firefighters are typically in 110% better physical shape than 3/4 of the ambulance medics that arrive. In addition to "holding a patient's hand" (which, by the way, isn't always a bad thing) we start/interpret EKGs, start a line, provide first line cardiac drugs,package and load the patient, etc... The only service we don't provide that the medic unit does is the actual transport. Even then, we'll ride in on ANY call the in-charge medic asks us to. Often times, we'll even offer if the patient seems "iffy".


What does physical shape have to do with providing paramedic first response? I'm willing to bet that most firefighters are in 110% better physical shape than most ED physicians. Do you want the firefighters replacing ED physicians now?

How much time is normally saved? How many of those procedures actually help (e.g. the only thing shown to help in a cardiac arrest is compressions and defibrillation are the only things shown to improve survival to discharge)? Starting a line and then not giving anything doesn't help. 



> When EMS and Fire play nicely, it's like a ballet. But when you have people who don't respect the other side equally, it becomes a mosh pit. Sorry if you don't agree. But that's a fact. To even say that a FD is trying to "pad" there numbers by adding EMS to the mix is just ignorant. Ask the patient or the parent of the patient who called 911 and they'll tell you....."the sound of a Q2 on a fire truck rounding the corner is like an angel singing". They don't care who shows up first, as long as someone CAPABLE is there to help, which I can say with NO hesitation, our firefighters are more than capable.



I think there's a difference between questioning the appropriateness of fire department paramedic first response and dis/respecting field staff. This is a debate for forums and city council meetings, not on a medical scene. Similarly, the "angel singing" comment is just as applicable with an EMT first response as a paramedic first response.


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## sweetpete

JPINFV said:


> Are there enough low use procedures (e.g. intubations) to support both FD and EMS paramedics?
> 
> *Absolutely. We average 5 or 6 cardiac arrests each month. Even 1 a month would justify an ALS truck, not to mention the other ALS calls we go on.  Plus, our training time is equal to the county's since we're under the same medical control.*
> 
> So no one complains when an EMS run comes in?
> *
> Sometimes (typically, there's more complaining at dinner or after midnight) But, not when we get on scene. It's all customer service/patient care at that point.*
> 
> No one is forced to become a paramedic, either officially or in order to be competitive for hiring (de facto required)?
> 
> *No. EMT-Basic and your fire cert. is all that's required. But the medic cert pays more. All medic school is voluntary and reimbursed upon successful completion. So it makes it fair to the employee and the city.*
> 
> Is there an actual need for paramedic first response? After all, not everyone in the hospital is a physician.
> 
> *Sure, sometimes. Nonetheless, every truck has at least one medic at any given time. Usually more than one. It's what the our public expects, at this point.
> *
> 
> What does physical shape have to do with providing paramedic first response?
> *Alot when it comes to climbing stairs, bringing patients down (especially "bigger" patients), doing compressions.....physical stamina and strength are just as important as knowledge in this field. That's just my opinion though*.
> 
> Do you want the firefighters replacing ED physicians now?
> *That's ridiculous. I don't see the correlation and I never implied that in my post. ED docs are awesome.*
> 
> How much time is normally saved? How many of those procedures actually help (e.g. the only thing shown to help in a cardiac arrest is compressions and defibrillation are the only things shown to improve survival to discharge)? Starting a line and then not giving anything doesn't help.
> 
> *We average between 3-5 mins between our arrival and the next incoming medic unit. So, in EMS terms.....that's a lifetime. You can do alot to help a patient in that window. Also, we carry about 90% of the same drugs that the medic unit carries, minus RSI. So, yes, we can typically get a HUGE jump on a serious life-threat prior to ambulance arrival.*
> 
> I think there's a difference between questioning the appropriateness of fire department paramedic first response and dis/respecting field staff. This is a debate for forums and city council meetings, not on a medical scene. Similarly, the "angel singing" comment is just as applicable with an EMT first response as a paramedic first response.
> 
> *I would tend to agree with this point. As a parent, I want that ambulance asap. My point is that I'll take an ALS engine/truck in addition. However, knowing what I know now and having been an EMT-B for awhile before becoming an EMT-I, and especially now that I'm "rounding third" with with my medic school, I would want an ALS ambulance/truck EVERYTIME over a basic, in a true life-threatening emergency.. No offense to any EMT-Basics. That's my viewpoint.*




And btw, my info is strictly based on the needs of the community that I serve. Every city/metro is different, so I know it's not a "cookie cutter" delivery system.  
Thanks,


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## DrParasite

great statement that supports my point:


sweetpete said:


> We usually arrive first because we have more engines in the city than the county has ambulances...
> When EMS and Fire play nicely, it's like a ballet. But when you have people who don't respect the other side equally, it becomes a mosh pit. Sorry if you don't agree. But that's a fact. To even say that a FD is trying to "pad" there numbers by adding EMS to the mix is just ignorant....
> Ask the patient or the parent of the patient who called 911 and they'll tell you....."the sound of a Q2 on a fire truck rounding the corner is like an angel singing". They don't care who shows up first, as long as someone CAPABLE is there to help, which I can say with NO hesitation, our firefighters are more than capable.


So you admit that Houston has more fire trucks than ambulances, and I'm guessing that Houston is like almost every urban city in the US where EMS calls outnumber fire calls by a margin of at least 2:1.  

So Houston fire is arriving first because the City won't staff the EMS system with enough ambulances to do the job properly, without the bandaid assistance of the HFD first response engines.

In fact, I'm betting you could eliminate quite a few of those engine company responses if they had more ambulances, so you wouldn't need the engine to even do a first response run.

and many studies have shows that in the majority of the calls, 2 minutes don't make a difference in mortality of patients (no I don't have the cite with me, but it has floated around here).

I'm sure your citizens feel very relieved when they hear the Q, because it tells them someone is there.  but that relief is due to ignorance on behalf of the public....  they would be much better if they had an ambulance show up who could transport them to the hospital, instead of a non-transporting fire engine.  after all, studies have shown in the urban environment that ALS doesn't affect mortality on a statistical level.

Don't get me wrong, having extra hands on an MVA, cardiac arrest, even just to help carry an obese patient is definitely appreciated.  

But I'd rather get a quick ride to the hospital in a BLS ambulance who can get me to the ER, than have 4 firefighters standing around me when I am having an MI or get shot or hit by a car or I'm having a stroke saying "don't worry the ambulance is on the way" and then waiting and hoping they don't get diverted or flagged down or have a flat tire etc.  

but that's just me, I'm a bigger fan of evidenced based medicine instead of the emotional belief that a non-transporting ALS first responder will actually do anything that has a benefit on patient outcomes.


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## usalsfyre

DrParasite said:


> but that's just me, I'm a bigger fan of evidenced based medicine instead of the emotional belief that a non-transporting ALS first responder will actually do anything that has a benefit on patient outcomes.


Somebody please check the tempature in Hades because I agree completely with DrParasite on this statement.


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## ShotMedic

How many ambulance responses actually end in a transport? I think we just need, transport fireengines or put a tow hitch on the existing engines? Whose down?


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## jgmedic

Part of the problem is that FD's are far better at PR than EMS. They, for the most part, present themselves as far more professional than most EMS services.


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## usalsfyre

jgmedic said:


> Part of the problem is that FD's are far better at PR than EMS. They, for the most part, present themselves as far more professional than most EMS services.



I haven't found they present themselves more professionally, but rather have learned to play on emotion and impress with pomp, circumstance and tradition.

FDs have been seriously playing up the "hero" thing for ten years now. What's regrettable is it's actually set us back in certain areas. Safety, for instance. To many fireman have started to believe their own PR.


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## jgmedic

usalsfyre said:


> I haven't found they present themselves more professionally, but rather have learned to play on emotion and impress with pomp, circumstance and tradition.
> 
> FDs have been seriously playing up the "hero" thing for ten years now. What's regrettable is it's actually set us back in certain areas. Safety, for instance. To many fireman have started to believe their own PR.



I agree to a point, but I believe that is good PR(for them), if people believe what they are seeing, who are they more likely to support?


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## usalsfyre

jgmedic said:


> I agree to a point, but I believe that is good PR(for them), if people believe what they are seeing, who are they more likely to support?



Yeah, it's good to believe what you sell...'till a building falls on your head.

A department around here had a double LODD because two guys were somewhere they never should have been. They're held up as "heros" even though they were inside a structure with no savable contents, because of the hype. Houston FD kills at least one firefighter a year in a vacant building, yet they're "heroes" and HFD sees no reason to revise their tactics. 

Why does it piss me off so bad? Because I'm tired of hearing about preventable deaths (FD and EMS) and wondering if it was a friend of mine....


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## jgmedic

usalsfyre said:


> Yeah, it's good to believe what you sell...'till a building falls on your head.
> 
> A department around here had a double LODD because two guys were somewhere they never should have been. They're held up as "heros" even though they were inside a structure with no savable contents, because of the hype. Houston FD kills at least one firefighter a year in a vacant building, yet they're "heroes" and HFD sees no reason to revise their tactics.
> 
> Why does it piss me off so bad? Because I'm tired of hearing about preventable deaths (FD and EMS) and wondering if it was a friend of mine....


LAFD, same story. I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm saying it's a huge factor in the disparity between not only pay, but public opinion in the public vs. private/3rd EMS debate.


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## usalsfyre

jgmedic said:


> LAFD, same story. I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm saying it's a huge factor in the disparity between not only pay, but public opinion in the public vs. private/3rd EMS debate.



That I certainly agree with. And the I also agree that a big problem image wise is I get lumped in with the dialysis derby employee in shorts, flip-flops, an untucked and unbuttoned uniform shirt and enough metal in his face that it looks like he fell into a tackle box (not anti-tattoo or piercing, but keep it tasteful). Why? Because we both have "ambulance" written on the vehicle we show up in.


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## jgmedic

usalsfyre said:


> That I certainly agree with. And the I also agree that a big problem image wise is I get lumped in with the dialysis derby employee in shorts, flip-flops, an untucked and unbuttoned uniform shirt and enough metal in his face that it looks like he fell into a tackle box (not anti-tattoo or piercing, but keep it tasteful). Why? Because we both have "ambulance" written on the vehicle we show up in.



Don't even get me started on that.


----------

