# Virginia Tech Shooting



## firecoins (Apr 16, 2007)

Well this one keeps pouring in.  20 plus dead.  Shootings in 2 places, a dorm and an engineering building. Bomb threats to engineering building in the month prior.

video from CNN
http://www.cnn.com/video/player/pla...2007/04/16/sot.va.tech.shooting.barghouti.cnn


----------



## Epi-do (Apr 16, 2007)

This is so tragic!  Now over 30 reported dead and almost as many injured.  My heart goes out to the friends and families of all those involved.


----------



## Raf (Apr 16, 2007)

This is getting ridiculous. Too many kids are getting the idea that shooting as many people as they can is a way out of depression.
edit: although I just read that they're not sure who the shooter was yet

This recent wave started at Columbine and that has been giving kids the idea.


----------



## firecoins (Apr 16, 2007)

33 dead is the official count. It includes the shooter who remains unidentified. 

There were 2 locations at 2 different times.  They are unsure if they are related.


----------



## Tincanfireman (Apr 16, 2007)

So very, very sad. Thoughts & prayers go out to the families and friends of the students.  I just cannot comprehend how anyone could shoot close to 60 people in cold blood. How much hate can one person have?


----------



## MMiz (Apr 16, 2007)

I couldn't stop checking CNN all day for updates.  This is truly tragic, and my thoughts go out to the victims, families, and community.


----------



## SwissEMT (Apr 17, 2007)

I'll say one thing, I think there's something truly wrong with the mindset of Americans.

RIP To those lost. Unfortunate that LEOs weren't able to get rounds on target in time.


----------



## Stevo (Apr 17, 2007)

> I'll say one thing, I think there's something truly wrong with the mindset of Americans.



it's an ill wind that's blowing in America

but most of us can't feel it

and most of us run to place blame on anything other than ourselves

watch how the Media will now glorify this incident, can you say Joe Camel? it's the exact same mentality, except it's Joe-pissed off

~S~


----------



## firecoins (Apr 17, 2007)

media reports have the suspect as a Chinese national in the US on a Visa.  I am not sure that "American sociey" is to blame quite yet.


----------



## Summit (Apr 17, 2007)

23 y/o M South Korean studying on a visa


----------



## Chimpie (Apr 17, 2007)

It was just released that the shooter, Cho Seung-Hui, was here on a student visa from South Korea.


----------



## Guardian (Apr 17, 2007)

SwissEMT said:


> I'll say one thing, I think there's something truly wrong with the mindset of Americans.




How so?  How could you possibly turn this around on Americans?  Where's your pride?


----------



## firecoins (Apr 17, 2007)

I don't see how "America" is at fault. 

Some are blaming a lack of gun control but how do you stop someone who is willing to die in the process of killing others. 19 men killed 3000 with nothing more than small knives & boxcutters. The 2 kids at Columbine had made bombs in addition to having guns. 

Some are blaming video games.   We have no way of knowing if this kid played video games or not. If he did we have no way of knowing if he played the violent ones.  Ill tell you not once did I believe in fighting in a martial arts tournement using fireballs and upside down, gravity defying, hurricane kicks against a werewolf who knows kung fu and robotic ninjas.


----------



## ycalderon (Apr 17, 2007)

I live in Roanoke, VA. Virginia Tech is just 30 minutes away. All I can say is WOW.


----------



## SwissEMT (Apr 17, 2007)

Guardian said:


> How so?  How could you possibly turn this around on Americans?  Where's your pride?



I feared that someone would mistake my comment as me blaming this event on the american populace. 

What happened at VA Tech was beyond the control of everyone and every procedure and law that has been enacted by the US government. There is simply no way for the government to be able to prevent such illogical acts. 
Gun control laws have done nothing but keep firearms out of the hands of law-abiding citizens. Murderers, gang members and thieves don't sit there saying "oh gosh darnit, I can't get my piece until I file a 43-11 with my local police department, guess I'll have to find a more legitimate way to earn my bread" Gun laws in this case have done nothing if not made the situation worse. Had one, maybe even two students on campus been allowed to hold their CCW right on campus, then MAYBE this would have been ended sooner. In active shooter situations, frontsights need to be on target AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, regardless of who's. As stated before, gun control only keeps the guns away from the good people.VA Tech was a gun-free zone, which meant that the safety of the 20,000+ student and staff body was ENTIRELY in the hands of a few VA Tech PD.
Campus Police departments are ill-equipped to handle situations of this magnitude. They are not given adequate training to handle situations such as this. I have worked in conjunction with one of the most well funded collegiate police departments in the Northeast and have found that they still remained an ineffective policing force. As with any department, officers were not granted adequate amounts of range time, nor were they sent to private training companies to train for situations such as this and liked the mindset.

Am I the only one who has seen the united states populaces' atitude shift towards an atitude of entrusting their well being solely in law enforcement and the government and no longer on a personal level.

Am I the only one who when faced with a situation where my life is going to be taken from me, will act regardless of the consequences? In a situation such as this event, you can bet your *** I will be the first up with my HAK hoping to go down fighting. I believe it is my duty as a resident of this nation to be willing to sacrifice my own life in the hopes to preserve the life of another American. Am I some militia member, gun toting idiot? No! 
We are AMERICA, what has led to us becoming so submissive? We have turned into a flock of livestock due to guidelines which are carved into our minds. 
This is the mindset I speak of. 
Our government and law enforcement CANNOT ensure our safety at every waking moment. In situations where time means lives, only immediate action can make a difference. 
Passengers of American Airlines Flight 93 are the greatest americans of this century in my eyes. These men and women, though knowingly doomed refused to stay submissive to the hijackers and decided to take it into their own hands. The lines "Are you guys ready? Let's roll" will forever be the words of heroes.


----------



## firecoins (Apr 17, 2007)

Passanger on Flight 93 had 1 advantage other flights didn't.   They knew other planes had crashed.  Callers from the plane were notified of the WTC and Pentagon suicide missions. This was due to a 45 minute delay at Newark which is usual if you ever flew out of there.  Some passangers on flight 77 thought about a takeover and mentioned it to people they called. It never occured though.


----------



## SwissEMT (Apr 17, 2007)

firecoins said:


> Passanger on Flight 93 had 1 advantage other flights didn't.   They knew other planes had crashed.  Callers from the plane were notified of the WTC and Pentagon suicide missions. This was due to a 45 minute delay at Newark which is usual if you ever flew out of there.  Some passangers on flight 77 thought about a takeover and mentioned it to people they called. It never occured though.



If I remember correctly, the delay was due to Flight 93 being late at takeoff. My aim was not to downplay the heroism of the victims lost on Flight 175, Flight 11 and Flight 77.


----------



## Fedmedic (Apr 17, 2007)

Wolf, sheep or sheepdog? Which one are you?


----------



## LIFEGUARDAVIDAS (Apr 17, 2007)

Sad sad news. Over here in Argentina all news channels have been showing what happenned in VA Tech. In my opinion what is even sadder is that this is not a first and probably won't be the last one.

Though the US society suffers these kind of situations before others and in a major scale, it is a problem that all "western" culture countries face these days. Looking for a scapegoat (foreigners on visas, the society's decay, NRA and guns...) not only won't solve anything but will create new conflicts. 

I truly believe that we shouldn't ignore the motives that led those individuals to do what they did. Many of those motives are the cause of depression of too many people. This, of course doesn't justify by any means those criminal actions. 

Peace is possible as long as it starts in each individual. An individual who is in peace with him/herself, content, happy, etc. will be able to project that to others. Those individuals that are not strong enough and are not able to achieve that by themselves shouldn't be ignored by the rest of us, they should be assisted by us. 

Let's not be indifferent to the real issues and act differently than those who under pressure react so wrongly as those criminals.

About the 9-11 incidents, flight 93 among them, shouldn't be mixed or compared with this other type of incidents. One is a FFOp and the other one is the result of a disturbed weak and coward person.

My condolence to all those affected by the shootings at Virginia Polytechnic Institute.



Guri


----------



## SwissEMT (Apr 17, 2007)

Fedmedic said:


> Wolf, sheep or sheepdog? Which one are you?


I'm sorry, I don't quite understand the question.



> About the 9-11 incidents, flight 93 among them, shouldn't be mixed or compared with this other type of incidents. One is a FFOp and the other one is the result of a disturbed weak and coward person.


I am simply using the passengers of Flight 93 as an example of Americans who refused to surrender to a threat, regardless of their own personal outcome


----------



## Ridryder911 (Apr 17, 2007)

I assumed anytime a handgun is used, the "gun control" activist comes out. Even if gun control had been in effect, this mentally and deranged person would had figured out a way to cause such demise. 

They are suspecting that he was an author of some threatening letters of potential bomb threats. With some basic knowledge, and ability to gather information, we are aware that he would had been able to accomplish that as well if he wanted to. 

Instead of focusing on the etiology of the problem, we much rather pass it off for more regulations. It has been reported that suggestions from professors and staff was aware of potential problems of from letters and stories that he had written for class. Even one professor reported her concerns only to be told, that they would have to await until a violent act occurred. 

Again, we do not want to attempt to understand the problem. The shooter is now of course being described as a loner, non active or social person with potential problems. Instead of funding gun control, stricter restrictions, maybe we should increase funding for research and treatment of those that apparently have mental disorders. Obviously, there is certain traits, as profilers can compile and describe the psychological problems, yet we cut mental health funding. Maybe we should address more areas of this in schools, promote warning signs, and if someone does present such profile and warnings as was noted, be addressed and investigated for potential problems, and treated if deemed necessary. 

R/r 911


----------



## fm_emt (Apr 17, 2007)

Ridryder911 said:


> I assumed anytime a handgun is used, the "gun control" activist comes out. Even if gun control had been in effect, this mentally and deranged person would had figured out a way to cause such demise.



Dianne Feinstein and her friends at the Brady Campaign wasted no time in starting up their 'assault weapon ban' rhetoric again.. even though this nutjob was using a handgun.


----------



## Stevo (Apr 17, 2007)

> Where's your pride?



pride goes before the fall....

~S~


----------



## Fedmedic (Apr 17, 2007)

SwissEMT said:


> I'm sorry, I don't quite understand the question.
> 
> This question was basically directed toward the entire forum, just to make people think when the topic of gun control and self defense arises.
> 
> ...


----------



## SwissEMT (Apr 17, 2007)

Fedmedic,

No worries. I am familiar with the analogy, I was rather surprised that you would be asking me the question directly.


----------



## Fedmedic (Apr 17, 2007)

SwissEMT said:


> Fedmedic,
> 
> No worries. I am familiar with the analogy, I was rather surprised that you would be asking me the question directly.



My fault, the question wasn't directed at you. By your previous post, I can draw a good idea of which one you are...you might want to get the hair out of your eyes...LOL


----------



## firecoins (Apr 17, 2007)

I do find it ironic that the assault weapon ban is now a hot topic despite this kid using a handgun. The university made it illegal to have a handgun on campus anyway. The shooter didn't seem to concerned.  Of course murder is also illegal and he had no problem doing that either.


----------



## Guardian (Apr 17, 2007)

Ok, I understand now Swissemt and I COULD NOT agree MORE with you.

I think we've seen time and time again in history that we cannot trust our safety to police, government, whatever.  Most of the time, police only get there after the fact and stand over the dead bodies in amazement like any of us would do.  The killer chained the doors so no one could leave and the police couldn't get in.  The only hope would have been a student/s with a ccw.

I'm seriously thinking of joining the NRA now.

I want to be a sheepdog.

I’m not particularly religious but God bless the families of the murdered Va Tech students.


----------



## mace85 (Apr 17, 2007)

SwissEMT said:


> I feared that someone would mistake my comment as me blaming this event on the american populace.
> 
> What happened at VA Tech was beyond the control of everyone and every procedure and law that has been enacted by the US government. There is simply no way for the government to be able to prevent such illogical acts.
> Gun control laws have done nothing but keep firearms out of the hands of law-abiding citizens. Murderers, gang members and thieves don't sit there saying "oh gosh darnit, I can't get my piece until I file a 43-11 with my local police department, guess I'll have to find a more legitimate way to earn my bread" Gun laws in this case have done nothing if not made the situation worse. Had one, maybe even two students on campus been allowed to hold their CCW right on campus, then MAYBE this would have been ended sooner. In active shooter situations, frontsights need to be on target AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, regardless of who's. As stated before, gun control only keeps the guns away from the good people.VA Tech was a gun-free zone, which meant that the safety of the 20,000+ student and staff body was ENTIRELY in the hands of a few VA Tech PD.
> ...




I couldn't have said it better myself. The state of Virginia allows CCW on campus. V Tech does not allow students to carry for fear of expulsion. I think the V Tech's rules cost 32 lives that day. In my class of 22 students 10 f us have our CCW permits. Like you said if the excrement hit the oscillating rotator in a class room front sights need to be on threat ASAP. In mine there would be 10 front sights. But thanks to campus policy, we are not able to be responsible for our own safety.

Don't get me wrong, the shooter is solely responsible for these acts. But the school effectively created an population of helpless victims. To me that is unacceptable.


----------



## Guardian (Apr 17, 2007)

mace85 said:


> I couldn't have said it better myself. The state of Virginia allows CCW on campus. V Tech does not allow students to carry for fear of expulsion. I think the V Tech's rules cost 32 lives that day. In my class of 22 students 10 f us have our CCW permits. Like you said if the excrement hit the oscillating rotator in a class room front sights need to be on threat ASAP. In my there would be 10 front sights. But not thanks to campus policies.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, the shooter is solely responsible for these acts. But the school effectively created an population of helpless victims. To me that is unacceptable.



couldn't agree more and I'm glad to see such intelligent people on this site.


----------



## fm_emt (Apr 17, 2007)

mace85 said:


> Don't get me wrong, the shooter is solely responsible for these acts. But the school effectively created an population of helpless victims. To me that is unacceptable.



People tried to get the state to allow students that are CCW holders to carry on campus. It was defeated.

"Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus.""

http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55226

The irony.


----------



## mace85 (Apr 18, 2007)

Look at the poll on that link.... It's amazing.


----------



## Summit (Apr 18, 2007)

Just remember, Swiss, Guardian, and Rid are talking about prevention... good ideas

Fedmedic asks how we react when prevention fails.

We try to convince our frequent flyer diabetics to be healthier when we see them.

We treat them when they do not take care.

Yes, you should look at how we can prevent the causes of violence and try and catch problems before they expode.

Yes, you should be ready to defend you and yours by any means when the problems end up at the barrel of a gun.


----------



## BossyCow (Apr 18, 2007)

Fedmedic said:


> Wolf, sheep or sheepdog? Which one are you?



Those are the only options?


----------



## firecoins (Apr 18, 2007)

Usually I a laughing hyina.  Where do I fit in?


----------



## Stevo (Apr 18, 2007)

interesting that a massacre involving guns would result in posters here, people that have to clean up the mess, wishing to proliferate the public with more of them

the mods here say we're not a gun and/or political forum, but just look at how it all affects us, there's no avioding it is there?

imho, the gun insanity here rests on the shoulders of the NRA, which many outside of our borders pick up on quicker than we do

they keep shouting about our gun/militia rights , while the people who own guns involved in these instances are turning us into a police state, taking away our rights 

there's no _valid_ reason to own a handgun, aside from LEO's, there's no _valid_ reason to own an assault rifle, aside from being a terrorist, yet there's every _valid_ reason for universal firearms education (which deosn't exist) and licensure (also lacking) because guns are no less lethal than a car

but that NRA yanno, keeps yapping about our 2nd Amd & armaments in the context of being free and having freedoms for those of us that are so friggin' lame betwixt the ears to buy into it

and the Busheviks? well they're mighty chummy with the NRA , seems a few 6-zero lunches have gone down there eh?  

i mean, if anyone here thinks that a citizen militia comprised of a bunch of scarecrows with semi-auto handguns and hunting rifles are going to take down a rouge government with howitzers and blackhawks , they're truly deluded

and to further insist that arming the public to the gills would result in less crime is about as rational as fornicating for virginity, inasmuch as isolated incidents of armed citizenry warding off predators are always well publicized, the adverse _'incident gone wrong'_ tends to be all the more prevalent. 

Christ on a cracker, how many of us have had to see that here?

If the statistical facts where that they have indeed been effective against the esculating crime wave, the NRA would be wearing crowns adorned with it


And to those of you who might think i'm a gun activist, or some wierd leftie, i'm not ok. I own an arsenal , and you can _have them all_ if we never have to see this sort of thing again

i won't feel like my freedoms are being violated at all....
~S~


----------



## mace85 (Apr 18, 2007)

You are a weird lefty....advocate of a gun ban, who owns guns. That either makes you a hypocrite or a weird lefty. You acknowledge that there is no valid reason to own firearms (btw an assault weapon is a fully automatic rifle, there aren't that many in civilian hands. If your gonna tell me I shouldn't own an item learn what the hell you talking about.) yet you say you do, an arsenal in fact. So what is it Stevo, your safe/smart/responsible enough to own firearms but you don't think anyone else should?

I am a gun owner. I am deep in the gun culture in my state. I am not a militia member, and I would never dream of going up against the military. I am a competitive shooter and hold a valid CCW permit. I am a member of the NRA. I HAVE NEVER ERODED ANYBODIES RIGHTS. I HAVE NEVER DONE ANYTHING TO CREATE A POLICE STATE. I have obeyed all laws, even stupid ones 100%. For you to make such a sweeping generalization about gun owners and the NRA is socially reckless and quite frankly offensive. Not only in this post, but it seems any firearm related thread that comes up. 

There is a lot of research about firearm use preventing violent crime. Some sources say as many as 2 million occurrences a year. If you could hold your disdain for the NRA long enough to peruse the website you may discover this yourself. Check out the following books: _Thank God I Had a Gun_, and _More Guns, Less Crime_.

This thread will probably get locked. I may get banned. In that case....Rid...thanks for all the info and advice. Guys its been fun. 

Stevo you have a post that contains NO FACTS, no research, no citations, and no information. You simply follow the same pattern when you post in these threads. You bash gun owners, you bash the NRA, then you say it's ok after all you own guns, but you would give yours up because they're really really bad. It must be easy to log on, call everyone an idiot, and walk away feeling like a supreme super smart bad-***. I wish life were that easy.


----------



## Stevo (Apr 18, 2007)

well i'm sure your a standup citizen Mace, but don't you think it's time to think things over when we're offing ourselves more than the terrorists are?

and all i offer is the ban of handguns (which i refuse to own btw)

if this fool had a rifle i'd wager the two hour delay , and subsequent carnage , would have been a lot less

and yes, one can be a gun owner, and find the NRA's stance, political affiliations, and backroom dealings offensive

that's nothing new, and niether is the two dimensional thinking that is it

~S~


----------



## Stevo (Apr 18, 2007)

to add Mace,
please feel free to include what stats you may have here. i've read/argued them for years , so it's all old hat to me

but here's the kicker, they might not look so bad internally, but they fall flat on their face when viewed side by side with other _sane_ nations externally

in the final tally, the lefties and righties need to both bow down to the realists

what we have doesn't work

~S~


----------



## ffemt8978 (Apr 18, 2007)

Okay, that went nowhere in a hurry.


----------

