# Toughbooks at a decent price



## traumaluv2011 (Jan 22, 2012)

My squad is looking to upgrade to electronic PCRs. In New Jersey the OEMS covers the charges for the service, the only thing we have to do is provide the computer. Anybody have any suggestions? I've been doing some browsing online and I haven't come up with anything too promising. I am not sure of the price range, but I imagine between 1,000-2,000 would be reasonable. The lower price would be better, because we're only a volunteer squad.


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## Anjel (Jan 22, 2012)

I've seen them for around 3000. The panasonic ones are the ones we use at work. 

How many do you need? 

Google tough book and it brings up tons of places that sell them and prices.


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## Chimpie (Jan 22, 2012)

Doing a quick search online, you should be able to find them in your price range.  How many do you need?  Have you tried contacting Panasonic directly?  Do you know what specs you need?


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## usalsfyre (Jan 22, 2012)

A basic Panasonic Toughbook will run around 3500. There's some other manufacturers.

Personally I would look into a Windows 7 tablet and a ruggedized case.


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## traumaluv2011 (Jan 22, 2012)

I am pretty sure we may only need two. One of our rigs is about 17 years old and hardly gets taken out. They may decide to get three, but that's up to the executives. I'll have to forward the contact info for Panasonic to the president and Captain.

I don't think they are looking for anything in particular. The only thing they want is a computer that won't break easily if it should be dropped or anything. 



usalsfyre said:


> A basic Panasonic Toughbook will run around 3500. There's some other manufacturers.
> 
> Personally I would look into a Windows 7 tablet and a ruggedized case.



Do you know if the EMS Charts are capable of running on tablets? I was looking at those too and they are cheaper than the toughbooks. Even the tablet version of a toughbook.


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## medicdan (Jan 22, 2012)

traumaluv2011 said:


> My squad is looking to upgrade to electronic PCRs. In New Jersey the OEMS covers the charges for the service, the only thing we have to do is provide the computer. Anybody have any suggestions? I've been doing some browsing online and I haven't come up with anything too promising. I am not sure of the price range, but I imagine between 1,000-2,000 would be reasonable. The lower price would be better, because we're only a volunteer squad.



As others have said, there are a few different manufacturers, but Panasonic's are the gold standard, and for good reason. They're expensive, but absolutely worth it.

Good luck!

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk


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## NomadicMedic (Jan 22, 2012)

There are several places that remanufacture and refurb Toughbooks. 

Google and get a "new to you" toughbook for well under $1000.


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## ffemt8978 (Jan 22, 2012)

I'm curious as to why the agency thinks they need toughbooks.  Unless you're taking them out of the ambulance and into the field, they really shouldn't be necessary.


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## EMSLaw (Jan 22, 2012)

ffemt8978 said:


> I'm curious as to why the agency thinks they need toughbooks.  Unless you're taking them out of the ambulance and into the field, they really shouldn't be necessary.



If you plan on converting to paperless, and doing all your PCRs electronically, then you have to take them out of the ambulance.  Since not every patient will be transported.


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## ffemt8978 (Jan 22, 2012)

EMSLaw said:


> If you plan on converting to paperless, and doing all your PCRs electronically, then you have to take them out of the ambulance.  Since not every patient will be transported.



I work for an ISP that has towers at remote locations, such as mountain tops, middle of the desert, orchards, and abandoned military bases.  I use a normal everyday laptop with no issues.

I just can't see justifying the cost of a $3000 toughbook when you can buy 4 normal laptops for the same price.  Considering the growth of technology, especially in the hardware requirements to run newer software, most agencies will have to upgrade or replace their computers every couple of years to keep pace.


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## traumaluv2011 (Jan 22, 2012)

ffemt8978 said:


> I work for an ISP that has towers at remote locations, such as mountain tops, middle of the desert, orchards, and abandoned military bases.  I use a normal everyday laptop with no issues.
> 
> I just can't see justifying the cost of a $3000 toughbook when you can buy 4 normal laptops for the same price.  Considering the growth of technology, especially in the hardware requirements to run newer software, most agencies will have to upgrade or replace their computers every couple of years to keep pace.



I see what you are saying, I will suggest looking into a tablet or one of those smaller, more portable laptops. we're going to want something we can easily hold with one hand and fill out with the other, much like a paper chart. It all depends on how much the borough is willing to give us. I believe they are arranging a meeting with the borough in the next coming weeks, so I'll do some research on toughbooks, laptops, and tablets and present it to them. Thanks for the input.


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## usalsfyre (Jan 22, 2012)

The issue I've seen is issued laptops have no sense of ownership. As such, they get treated poorly to the point of abuse.

Not saying I agree, or wouldn't discipline anyone found to be abusing the equipment...but it's the reality of the situation


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## ffemt8978 (Jan 22, 2012)

usalsfyre said:


> The issue I've seen is issued laptops have no sense of ownership. As such, they get treated poorly to the point of abuse.
> 
> Not saying I agree, or wouldn't discipline anyone found to be abusing the equipment...but it's the reality of the situation



Good point, but in reality, everything on the ambulance should be considered disposable.  There is no good way to decontaminate any type of computer if they get really crapped up.


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## usalsfyre (Jan 22, 2012)

True. It's the reason I've been researching tablet PCR programs that will run on something in the $500 range.

On the "everything disposable" front , certain items (cardiac monitor, ventilator, ect) can be sent out for cleaning MUCH cheaper than replacement though.


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## ffemt8978 (Jan 22, 2012)

usalsfyre said:


> True. It's the reason I've been researching tablet PCR programs that will run on something in the $500 range.



These are the $750 range but run Windows 7
http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/latitude-st/pd
These are in the $500 range
http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/inspiron-duo/pd


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## Handsome Robb (Jan 22, 2012)

ffemt8978 said:


> I'm curious as to why the agency thinks they need toughbooks.  Unless you're taking them out of the ambulance and into the field, they really shouldn't be necessary.



True but on the other hand we rarely take ours out of the unit and most of the time they are out they are in the hospital. 

I've seen my fare share get knocked off the bench seat on accident or fall off the shelf in the cab when driving. They should be secured but unfortunately they aren't. I've never seen someone maliciously toss one around.

With that said I don't think a regular tablet or laptop would survive well. We have Been looking into iPads but our software won't run on them. Word is if they figure it out and we do switch the each person will be issued one and be responsible for it to try and counteract the "sense of ownership" argument. We will see what happens...


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## DesertMedic66 (Jan 22, 2012)

We currently use the toughbooks we have probably over 20 of them. I don't see us changing anytime soon. The toughbooks are well tough. Ive droped a couple on accident and they hold up perfectly fine. We can rotate the screen and lay it down flat so it is just a semi heavy tablet. Ive heard of employees using them and the metal clipboards as defensive weapons for aggressive patients (supervisors told me this stuff lol). 

The college I teach at was talking about getting 6-8 IPads so the students can know how to document an write PCRs good before leaving the class. But I haven't heard anything else about getting them. 

I personally hate the touch screens on any tables and could not imagine typing or entering in numbers with only a touch screen.


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## dixie_flatline (Jan 22, 2012)

Sorry, but 4 regular laptops are not at all the same as a toughbook.  That's like saying you can replace a HMMWV/MRAP with 4 or 5 F-150's.  It's not an Apples to Apples comparison, even though they are very similar at first glance.

The toughbook sits inside the ambulance 24/7.  That's not good for any computer - the vibrations alone would destroy a lot of components inside of a year most likely.  Really you don't want a spinning hard drive at all, for a mobile application like an MDT or ePCR machine you really want a Solid State Drive - the hard drive will be the first thing to go, even on a toughbook, 80% of the time.


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## ffemt8978 (Jan 22, 2012)

dixie_flatline said:


> Sorry, but 4 regular laptops are not at all the same as a toughbook.  That's like saying you can replace a HMMWV/MRAP with 4 or 5 F-150's.  It's not an Apples to Apples comparison, even though they are very similar at first glance.
> 
> The toughbook sits inside the ambulance 24/7.  That's not good for any computer - the vibrations alone would destroy a lot of components inside of a year most likely.  Really you don't want a spinning hard drive at all, for a mobile application like an MDT or ePCR machine you really want a Solid State Drive - the hard drive will be the first thing to go, even on a toughbook, 80% of the time.



While your points are somewhat valid, I beg to differ.  I drive cattle trails, mountain trails, and through fields with my laptop mounted on a stand in my truck.  Never had an issue with the hdd or any other component.

Toughbooks are not indestructible...they're just harder to destroy.  In addition, they are difficult to decontaminate if needed (not that a regular computer could be decontaminated very easily).


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## DrParasite (Jan 22, 2012)

ffemt8978 said:


> While your points are somewhat valid, I beg to differ.  I drive cattle trails, mountain trails, and through fields with my laptop mounted on a stand in my truck.  Never had an issue with the hdd or any other component.


yes, but can I sign my name on your laptop, which is then scanned by the computer and automatically attached to the digital chart? ditto signing for an RMA?

BTW, my service has tablets.  all the medics hate them.  get a keyboard, your crews will thank you later.


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## usalsfyre (Jan 22, 2012)

Bluetooth keyboards are a viable solution.


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## traumaluv2011 (Jan 22, 2012)

DrParasite said:


> yes, but can I sign my name on your laptop, which is then scanned by the computer and automatically attached to the digital chart? ditto signing for an RMA?
> 
> BTW, my service has tablets.  all the medics hate them.  get a keyboard, your crews will thank you later.



I think it will either be between a toughbook or a solid state netbook depending on how much money they can get.


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## ffemt8978 (Jan 22, 2012)

ffemt8978 said:


> These are the $750 range but run Windows 7
> http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/latitude-st/pd
> These are in the $500 range
> http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/inspiron-duo/pd





DrParasite said:


> yes, but can I sign my name on your laptop, which is then scanned by the computer and automatically attached to the digital chart? ditto signing for an RMA?
> 
> BTW, my service has tablets.  all the medics hate them.  get a keyboard, your crews will thank you later.



The second link I posted in that top one has a built in keyboard.


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## traumaluv2011 (Jan 23, 2012)

I saw on that link you posted there isn't a CD drive or a USB drive for an external CD drive. Does anyone know if EMSCharts can be be installed without that?


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