# why does age matter so much?



## Blake (Jan 6, 2012)

Im 19 and i have my NREMT-B and the ambulance service wont even let me work in there supplies department until im 20... I have to start applying for a non-emergency agency and even then i cant do a whole lot. I understand its for insurance reasons but still i am a emt im not some punk kid. Fire looks better and better everyday :huh::sad:


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## Medic Tim (Jan 6, 2012)

The service I started with you had to be 21. It was due to auto insurance as well as liability.


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## DesertMedic66 (Jan 6, 2012)

Insurance reasons. 
Some people don't consider you an adult once you turn 18. 
Alot of people say age corresponds with maturity.


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## DavidM (Jan 7, 2012)

I'm 18 and always found the age thing to be pretty silly. I know insurance dictates most of it.

In my town the EMS service is staffed and organzied entirely by High School students. CT state law allows you to get you EMR at 14, EMT-B at 16, and EMT-I at 18. So you begin the process the summer before your freshman year and gradually work your way up the ranks. By the time you're 15 you're riding on the ambulance dealing with equipment and learning and by 17 or 18 you're a crew chief or a driver. Its an awesome system that does amazing things both for the community and those who take part in it.

Its odd to think of the shrimpy 16 year old kids I know working nasty mvas on the side of I-95 or working a code patient but they do an amazing job and really show that age shouldn't be a factor.

More info about the service can be found on wikipedia or on their website.


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## medicdan (Jan 7, 2012)

When your <21 it always seems like age makes no difference, you're convinced that you are no different than others, you can do the job, you're mature, etc. Then you get older. Then you look at vehicle accident statistics. Then you begin to get life experience, and understand more about the situations going on around you. I'm just beginning to understand this. I started young, and don't regret it, and appreciate bosses for giving me the chances they have, but I also realize how utterly naive and dumb I was when I started, and how I still am in some ways. 

It seems the supply department job you are applying for requires you to drive vehicles-- which the company's insurance policy mandates you be over a certain age.


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## Chimpie (Jan 7, 2012)

emt.dan said:


> When your <21 it always seems like age makes no difference, you're convinced that you are no different than others, you can do the job, you're mature, etc. Then you get older. Then you look at vehicle accident statistics. Then you begin to get life experience, and understand more about the situations going on around you. I'm just beginning to understand this. I started young, and don't regret it, and appreciate bosses for giving me the chances they have, but I also realize how utterly naive and dumb I was when I started, and how I still am in some ways.
> 
> It seems the supply department job you are applying for requires you to drive vehicles-- which the company's insurance policy mandates you be over a certain age.



It's amazing how this happens, doesn't it?

When I was younger, I actually saw this from both point of views.  There were times where I thought I was the king of the world, and now looking back on it, I didn't know crap.  Then there was the time I was asked to apply for shift command position and I was like, "Guys, I'm in my early 20's.  There's no way I'm ready for this."  Now, I probably could have done it just fine.

Advice: listen to your elders.  They have the the time, experience and scars to know what's best.


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## psyanotic (Jan 8, 2012)

All I can say is, I'm 21 now and am a COMPLETELY different person than I was at 18. Or even 19 for that matter. I expect to be even more different by 25. Maturity and cognitive development just happen so rapidly at our age.


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## 46Young (Jan 8, 2012)

Generally speaking, American youth have a poor work ethic. There's an unwillingness to work nights, weekends and holidays, or on a sunny beach day. If the work is too tedious, they'll leave after a few weeks or months, or do as little as necessary to get by without being fired. Employers also know that teenage employees are not as dependent on the salary as an older employee, so they may not take the job as seriously.

I see it in EMS where the young employees complain about the late jobs, the schedule, lack of meal breaks, the monotony, etc, and they have three minutes on the job, their first job at that.

Basically, if the employer chooses to hire olde remployees, they hope to get a more stable worker who will do their job more effectively, and better appreciate the opportunity. This is a generalization, of course, but this wouldn't be a common practice if it wasn't true enough of the time.


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## dastri (Jan 8, 2012)

46Young said:


> Generally speaking, American youth have a poor work ethic. There's an unwillingness to work nights, weekends and holidays, or on a sunny beach day. If the work is too tedious, they'll leave after a few weeks or months, or do as little as necessary to get by without being fired. Employers also know that teenage employees are not as dependent on the salary as an older employee, so they may not take the job as seriously.
> 
> I see it in EMS where the young employees complain about the late jobs, the schedule, lack of meal breaks, the monotony, etc, and they have three minutes on the job, their first job at that.
> 
> Basically, if the employer chooses to hire olde remployees, they hope to get a more stable worker who will do their job more effectively, and better appreciate the opportunity. This is a generalization, of course, but this wouldn't be a common practice if it wasn't true enough of the time.



Unfortunately i would have to agree with you. I know im going to get ripped on but im only 16. I just finished my class and waiting to take the state exam. Most of the people in my high school cant keep a job not even talking about volunteering. I volunteer because i enjoy helping people and i would give up my whole weekend if i am needed and already have. I just see being a EMT as a stepping stone on my way to med school. (Well at least i hope. )


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## KyleG (Jan 8, 2012)

I guess I lucked out I started my EMT-B Class at the Age of 20 and Finished it 21.


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## Blake (Jan 8, 2012)

KyleG said:


> I guess I lucked out I started my EMT-B Class at the Age of 20 and Finished it 21.



I wouldnt say lucked out. Just waited longer.


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## Sasha (Jan 8, 2012)

46Young said:


> Generally speaking, American youth have a poor work ethic. There's an unwillingness to work nights, weekends and holidays, or on a sunny beach day. If the work is too tedious, they'll leave after a few weeks or months, or do as little as necessary to get by without being fired. Employers also know that teenage employees are not as dependent on the salary as an older employee, so they may not take the job as seriously.
> 
> I see it in EMS where the young employees complain about the late jobs, the schedule, lack of meal breaks, the monotony, etc, and they have three minutes on the job, their first job at that.
> 
> Basically, if the employer chooses to hire olde remployees, they hope to get a more stable worker who will do their job more effectively, and better appreciate the opportunity. This is a generalization, of course, but this wouldn't be a common practice if it wasn't true enough of the time.



I think they'd go for young healthy employees not the older ones with back and knee issues, with CAD and hyperlipidemia who are going to drop dead on the job


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## R99 (Jan 8, 2012)

Sasha said:


> I think they'd go for young healthy employees not the older ones with back and knee issues, with CAD and hyperlipidemia who are going to drop dead on the job



I seriously lol'd

Generally young  people have a poor attitude when it comes to well, everything and this had been a major problem.with the preference to move ambulance education into university over the vocational training of older, more life experienced people


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## Handsome Robb (Jan 8, 2012)

psyanotic said:


> All I can say is, I'm 21 now and am a COMPLETELY different person than I was at 18. Or even 19 for that matter. I expect to be even more different by 25. Maturity and cognitive development just happen so rapidly at our age.



Quoted for truth. 

I'm 22 now. I wouldn't let my 18 year old personality anywhere near a patient. 

I'm sorry to say it but our generation as done a great job of creating a terrible view of ourselves. 

It's more than just driving, it can be accountability too. You have access to meds, people's houses, secured areas in buildings and our generation has not proven itself to be trustworthy with this type of responsibility. 

I know it sucks dude, believe me, I was there. Don't let it discourage you.


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## Fish (Jan 8, 2012)

46Young said:


> Generally speaking, American youth have a poor work ethic. There's an unwillingness to work nights, weekends and holidays, or on a sunny beach day. If the work is too tedious, they'll leave after a few weeks or months, or do as little as necessary to get by without being fired. Employers also know that teenage employees are not as dependent on the salary as an older employee, so they may not take the job as seriously.
> 
> I see it in EMS where the young employees complain about the late jobs, the schedule, lack of meal breaks, the monotony, etc, and they have three minutes on the job, their first job at that.
> 
> Basically, if the employer chooses to hire olde remployees, they hope to get a more stable worker who will do their job more effectively, and better appreciate the opportunity. This is a generalization, of course, but this wouldn't be a common practice if it wasn't true enough of the time.



Agreed


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## mycrofft (Jan 8, 2012)

(Tried to rent a car if you are 20 y/o lately?).

There are things you cannot know at age 20 and no one can give you. You will need to encounter them, hopefully with some warning, but also with partners and mentors. The biggest is how you will respond to certain situations, and the biggest is intelligently following protocols.

An intelligent 20 y/o could talk his/her way into a job and pass paper exams, but the majority would not succeed or would yield such low quality service until they gain experience that it would hurt operations. You can't filter them out, but you can just make an across-the-board rule and lower the chance your new guy/gal will be unprepared. 

Not saying all younger folks are nincompoops. There are many operable firefighters and soldiers in the 17-21 range (in other countries, much younger than that), there are kids that age raising siblings, but not in the numbers and density required to reliably staff a service.

As for a rescue service *entirely* made up of HS students, I do not believe it. Insurance is an absolute stopper. I believe a volunteer service staffed heavily with people that age is not impossible, if it is heavily laced with older heads, but managing turnover in a group of that age would be a nightmare.


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## DavidM (Jan 8, 2012)

mycrofft said:


> As for a rescue service *entirely* made up of HS students, I do not believe it. Insurance is an absolute stopper. I believe a volunteer service staffed heavily with people that age is not impossible, if it is heavily laced with older heads, but managing turnover in a group of that age would be a nightmare.



You can doubt me all you want but its true and is a system we've been using for 40 years. They have 3 ambulances and they are all staffed entirely by HS students who are dispatched from their base. There is a flycar that an EMT-I (a community volunteer) keeps at their house. The flycar meets the ambulance at the calls and work with the HS crew chief to direct the operation. Other than that the only adults are the upper management of the organization and the crew which staffs the 1st response ambulance during the school day.

As far as turnover goes they have a well though-out and implemented system that begins when the student is 14 and ends when they are 18 and out of college. Its not that huge of a problem because they know exactly how long they have kids for and they have a system in place to work around it.

Its an amazing service run by a group of supremely dedicated kids. I have 16 year old friends who dedicate 30+ hours a week to the service and 18 year old kids who regularly work 48+ hours a week between being on duty and dealing with their other post responsibilities.


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## mycrofft (Jan 8, 2012)

I was referring to every position from Chief on down to bumper wiper when I wrote "entirely". How can you get insurance for people that young? Or has that ever been put to the test? 
The is very interesting.


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## adamjh3 (Jan 8, 2012)

Don't get too discouraged. Depending on what company you get on with you might be able to find a solid IFT job somewhere. I started working on an ambulance at 18, got driver certified shortly after I turned 19, and now I'm a crew chief of a station of around 10 employees at 20, and I'll be wrapping up the didactic portion of medic school within a couple weeks of turning 21. 

That said, there's a 19 year old at my station that (against my reccomendation) passed his FTO time because he's very book smart, however I wouldn't let him anywhere near my family, because he acts his age all the time. He carries himself like a kid, not  a confident, competent adult. 

Are there times when I act like the kid I know I am? You betchya. Just remember, you are what you do when it counts.


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## Fish (Jan 8, 2012)

I started as an EMT at 18, turned 21 during Medic school. I came from a Military family, so discipline and hard work were intilled in me. That being said, a lot of the young basics coming in did not show the same drive or mature attitude. I was promoted to FTO and manager of supply within 4 months.


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## bigbaldguy (Jan 8, 2012)

Sasha said:


> I think they'd go for young healthy employees not the older ones with back and knee issues, with CAD and hyperlipidemia who are going to drop dead on the job



Yes but old employees don't have babies 

An executive in my company once said "all employees are either old and sick or young and pregnant".


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## Blake (Jan 8, 2012)

Well to the guy that thinks oh well 20 y/o kids need more life exp. Answer me how i am supposed to get it without working in the field? To my understandings we are not supposed to be age racist are we? 19 y/o or 40 y/o what does it matter if we are trained.


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## Sasha (Jan 8, 2012)

bigbaldguy said:


> Yes but old employees don't have babies
> 
> An executive in my company once said "all employees are either old and sick or young and pregnant".



Biological men don't get pregnant


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## bigbaldguy (Jan 9, 2012)

Sasha said:


> Biological men don't get pregnant



Ah so you're saying they should only hire young males, no old people or women.


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## fast65 (Jan 9, 2012)

It's usually due to liability issues as stated above, that's why agencies usually want you to be 21+.

That being said, as others have said, today's youth has gained a certain "stigma", and such an appearance is not what one would want to see in a healthcare provider. Like it or not, age plays a huge role in this field, some of the younger providers like to think they know it all, and some of them know how little they actually know. The latter seems to be a rarity though (well, except for some of the members on here); it seems that people see the younger generation as a bunch of crazy, selfish, know it all, hoodlums, and that is truly unfortunate.

My company has a good amount of young crew members, and it's easy to see the the variations in maturity levels. Some have a great work ethic and act with the utmost professionalism, whereas others seem to whine about every single part of the job that doesn't involve blood and guts, and make you just want to leave them on the side of the road. It all comes down to the individual and how they were raised. In my younger days there's no way I would have been mature enough for this job, hell, I wasn't even mature enough for it coming out of EMT school. But like someone else pointed out, we all change over time, we make mistakes and we learn and grow from those mistakes. Yeah, it sucks that most places require you to be 21, but that's just kind of how it goes.

All that aside, I love being the youngest person at my company, and the youngest paramedic at that. The looks I get can be quite entertaining sometimes.


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## fast65 (Jan 9, 2012)

Blake said:


> Well to the guy that thinks oh well 20 y/o kids need more life exp. Answer me how i am supposed to get it without working in the field? To my understandings we are not supposed to be age racist are we? 19 y/o or 40 y/o what does it matter if we are trained.



Wait two years.


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## adamjh3 (Jan 9, 2012)

Blake said:


> Well to the guy that thinks oh well 20 y/o kids need more life exp. Answer me how i am supposed to get it without working in the field? To my understandings we are not supposed to be age racist are we? 19 y/o or 40 y/o what does it matter if we are trained.



Life experience =/= work experience. EMS is not the only way to learn how to live your life, interact with people, learn social nuances, how to pronounce foreign names etc, etc. Hell, I'd even argue that it's a bad place to get your feet into the door of life, what with all the psychological and physiological ups and downs of the job.


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## usalsfyre (Jan 9, 2012)

adamjh3 said:


> Life experience =/= work experience. EMS is not the only way to learn how to live your life, interact with people, learn social nuances, how to pronounce foreign names etc, etc. Hell, I'd even argue that it's a bad place to get your feet into the door of life, what with all the psychological and physiological ups and downs of the job.



Very, very true. I'm a far better paramedic now than I was at 20, and it's not entirely due to work experience. There's aspects of maturing that just have to happen. Yes 21 is an arbitrary limit, but there has to be a limit somewhere, and the majority of 21 year olds probably have a different outlook than they did at 19. 

I started at 17 as a volunteer. EMS has shaped me in good and bad ways. I can tell you I was not prepared for some of what I was exposed to at 17 though.


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## Handsome Robb (Jan 9, 2012)

Blake said:


> Well to the guy that thinks oh well 20 y/o kids need more life exp. Answer me how i am supposed to get it without working in the field? To my understandings we are not supposed to be age racist are we? 19 y/o or 40 y/o what does it matter if we are trained.



 Like others said life experience and work experience are two completely different things.

Don't get yourself all worked up over this, there are plenty of jobs that have age requirements for one reason or another. 

At 22 I run into patients, usually older, that don't 'trust' me as a provider until I prove to them that I'm competent and professional. I'm not saying you can't be competent and professional at 18 but gaining that 'trust' from patients would be even more difficult. 

Just wait a bit man, you're young, you have your whole life ahead of you. Don't try to grow up too fast.


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## fast65 (Jan 9, 2012)

NVRob said:


> Like others said life experience and work experience are two completely different things.
> 
> Don't get yourself all worked up over this, there are plenty of jobs that have age requirements for one reason or another.
> 
> ...



^This.

Being young can make dealing with patients quite a bit more difficult, especially when you look like you're 12 years old. Patients find it much harder to trust you, and on occasion earning the respect of other providers is a chore. Like Rob said, you must prove your competence before you can gain a patients trust, and this is something that is made slightly more difficult by being young. 

I know that you're excited to jump into the field and use the skills you've learned, but keep in mind that you're still really young, you have plenty of time to get a job in EMS. I'll echo Rob in saying don't try to grow up too fast.


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## Sasha (Jan 9, 2012)

fast65 said:


> ^This.
> 
> Being young can make dealing with patients quite a bit more difficult, especially when you look like you're 12 years old. Patients find it much harder to trust you, and on occasion earning the respect of other providers is a chore. Like Rob said, you must prove your competence before you can gain a patients trust, and this is something that is made slightly more difficult by being young.
> 
> I know that you're excited to jump into the field and use the skills you've learned, but keep in mind that you're still really young, you have plenty of time to get a job in EMS. I'll echo Rob in saying don't try to grow up too fast.



This!

It's hard to gain their trust and all that when they cock their head and ask "....are you even out of high school?"


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## Handsome Robb (Jan 9, 2012)

Sasha said:


> This!
> 
> It's hard to gain their trust and all that when they cock their head and ask "....are you even out of high school?"



It's great when co-responders don't even respect you because you're "just a kid".

Fire: "I can't get a BP, not even palp."
Me: "Does she have a radial pulse?"
Fire: "No, but that doesn't matter."
Me: "Umm you need to be able to feel a radial to palp a BP..."
Fire: "Whatever kid."
My partner: "He's right... Now please step aside so my partner can start the IV and get some fluids in her."
Fire: "I'll get the IV."
My partner: "No, no you wont. I trust my partner...After that little conversation I don't trust you, now please move."
Me: "  "

All in the politest of tones, of course.


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## 46Young (Jan 9, 2012)

Sasha said:


> I think they'd go for young healthy employees not the older ones with back and knee issues, with CAD and hyperlipidemia who are going to drop dead on the job



I thought we were talking about employees farther along into their 20's vs teeny boppers. From my previous experiences in hospital based and private EMS, the new hires seem to be in their mid 20's to mid 30's for the most part. I started my first EMT job at 26, got hired at a hospital at 27, the fire job at 32, and my hospital IFT per diem at 34. The younger probies seem to be the EMT's, and the medic probies seem to be in the late 20's to late 30's for the most part. 

From my experience, most of the new hires who are in their mid 40's or older don't seem to last more than six months to a couple of years at the most. The lifting, the constant sitting, the odd hours, and being awake in the middle of the night is a young person's game. The employer can't discriminate based on age, so they're always going to have to hire a token older employee or two.

The practice of setting an age barrier may be due to observations by the company as to where their turnover and lack of productivity is occuring the most frequently. Again, someone in their mid 20's or older is more likely to live away from their parents, have revolving debt, and thus be more likely to value their job more so than a 20 y/o who still lives with their parents and would be financially solvent if they were to be fired.


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## 46Young (Jan 9, 2012)

Blake said:


> Well to the guy that thinks oh well 20 y/o kids need more life exp. Answer me how i am supposed to get it without working in the field? To my understandings we are not supposed to be age racist are we? 19 y/o or 40 y/o what does it matter if we are trained.



Life experience and work experience are two different things. Someone in their mid 20's is in a different phase of their life than a 19-20 y/o. To get life experience without working in the field, you can start your work history in another field. Pad your resume with community service and other volunteer work to show that you're well grounded. Employers will may check your credit score and your interactions in various social media as well. When I moved out at 22, I drove a Snapple truck and worked as a bouncer at night, for five years. This work history helped greatly in landing a job at a good hospital as an EMT, where there was much competition.

Also, training alone does not guarantee acceptable job performance. EMT school is only 110 hours. If you read the discussions about low pay in EMS, reasons are given such as an oversaturated supply due to low education barriers, so there's always someone available to replace you. Think about it, if there's an abundant supply of EMT's, the employer will prioritize relevant work experience first. The applicant with five years OTJ, preferably through as few employers as possible, will get the nod. If little to no experience, the more mature employee will get the job. Why take a risk on the younger applicant? If there is a depleted applicant pool, then and only then will the employer relax the age requirement, credit score, driving Hx, etc. That's how things work.

Also, many 20 year olds aren't in the right place mentally to best deal with the comfort care aspect of EMS, the empathy, hand holding, keeping even tempered with irate and combative patients, etc. The predisposition to road rage, treating L/S as a game, and challenging other motorists on the road is much more likely with a younger person. There's the notion that the EMT is somehow above the law since we work with police and fire, we have L/S, authority in certain situations, etc. Maturity mitigates these issues somewhat, generally speaking. 

I wanted to be a FDNY firefighter after getting my medic cert, but I was too old. I didn't let that get me down, I just joined another department.


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## fast65 (Jan 9, 2012)

Sasha said:


> This!
> 
> It's hard to gain their trust and all that when they cock their head and ask "....are you even out of high school?"




Dammit...who told you what my last six patients asked?


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## psyanotic (Jan 9, 2012)

You mentioned credit score, how many employers actually check that?


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## 46Young (Jan 9, 2012)

psyanotic said:


> You mentioned credit score, how many employers actually check that?



I can't say for sure, but it's becoming a more widely accepted practice. By running your credit, the employer can make certain assumptions about your responsibility level, among other things.

http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs.../when-employers-look-into-your-credit-history

Property managers also use this with prospective renters. They may not be able to discriminate based on credit, but I've seen them offer different rent prices based on their credit score, and may waive the security deposit as well.

Here's another one:

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Banking/YourCreditRating/how-bad-credit-can-cost-you-a-job.aspx

In 2006, 43% of employers ran credit checks on their applicants.


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## Blake (Jan 11, 2012)

46Young said:


> I can't say for sure, but it's becoming a more widely accepted practice. By running your credit, the employer can make certain assumptions about your responsibility level, among other things.
> 
> http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs.../when-employers-look-into-your-credit-history
> 
> ...







Well thats fine because i have a good credit score. But anyways yes i understand what your saying do i think its fair for me to start building credit from my 18th and as soon as i graduate get my nremt and everything except age is great. I could go on and on about military and other things but i dont want to argue. I figured out what i wanted early most people go party and screw off then get this and thats why they are older when they apply. I stayed home and studied. But like i said i understand you all. Fair? Not really but that's life in ems.


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