# Your opinion please.



## coloradoemt (Sep 12, 2005)

16 year old girl is at the gym for volleyball practice. She hurts her knee such that it will not straighten out. The coach finds her on the floor laying on her back in a fetal type position. Girl is in extreme pain. Coach calls for another coach with the football team to come over and assist. FB coach is an EMT on town Volly dept. FB coach identifies himself as such. Parents are called. Coaches straighten out the leg without checking pulse. Coaches and player feel a pop in the knee. Player screams in pain. Knee swells up. Emt coach leaves after saying nothing is wrong. 911 is called. Medic shows up and does assessment, cuts off sock, checks pulse, immobilizes knee, transports to ED. ED DOC thinks torn ACL.


Any comments on this? What should the parents do? Can they do anything? h34r:


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## TTLWHKR (Sep 12, 2005)

They could sue his *** off.

Unless it doesn't have a pulse, you don't move it. Immobilize in place.


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## CaptainPanic (Sep 12, 2005)

Bumass coach sounds to me like. He has to understand that ONE, he did not do the procedures and patient assessment correctly. TWO he abandoned his patient if he left before the ambulance crew arrived. THREE he did not act in the best interest of the pt.

And yes if I were the parent I would sue his *** off.

he has to realize this wasnt just banged knee in football this was a serious injury and he possibly made it worse.

-Capn


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## TexasMedic (Sep 12, 2005)

First off this is a classic case of pt. abandoment.

and second: 

He obviously forgot the basics:  check pulse, if present imbolize and splint as-is!!


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## coloradoemt (Sep 13, 2005)

Thank you for that. I was looking for someone to start up with a standard of care type answer. I cannot find anywhere where it states a basic can manipulate an extremity other than when circulation is not present. I would not have run the call anything like this guy did... especially since it was my daughter. More to the story, from information given to me by my wife after the leg was straightened out, I called the ambulance in from my job 30 miles away. I am just so furious right now I thought seeking all of your opinions would be a fantastic thing to do... Keep me on an even keel...  B)


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## CaptainPanic (Sep 13, 2005)

DANG! :blink:  h34r: I would sue on the following grounds:

Assault of a minor
Abandonment
Damages
Child endangerment

You could also go before the school board to have his coaching and teaching privileges revoked and he is to be released from contract immediately before he causes further harm to another student athlete

Also make sure his employer knows so that he will get relieved of his duties until further notice. He is a danger to the public if he is pulling stunts like this.

CO, as a parent myself, I have to stand behind you and be concerned because Im also putting my daughter in this situation, shes only 2 but still............

-Capn


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## Wingnut (Sep 13, 2005)

I agree with what everyone said. I'm not one of those sue happy people but in this case I think something needs to be done. It sounds like that coach realized he screwed up and made sure to leave before the REAL EMS got there. Did you inform her doctor of what happened? What did he think? He could probably tell you whether the coach did more damage or not.

How is your daughter doing now? Wish her well for me, and good luck in all this. It's a mess, but you definitely have a case.


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## rescuecpt (Sep 13, 2005)

rather than sue, I would pursue disciplinary action/retraining through the DOH.  If you want to punish the guy, the best way to do it is through making sure he doesn't hurt anyone else, instead of hurting his financial interests.  He's a coach, he probably doesn't have anything worth suing for to begin with.


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## Summit (Sep 13, 2005)

Take that guy out!!!!


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## TTLWHKR (Sep 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by coloradoemt_@Sep 12 2005, 11:05 PM
> * I cannot find anywhere where it states a basic can manipulate an extremity other than when circulation is not present. *


 

WEMTB

But only when ground transport is by foot and transportation to an ER is prolonged for a period of two hours or more, in a wilderness setting. This is one of the few WEMS protocols that are not put to exception.

The WEMTB can straighten or realign the fractured limb to form a cast of stalking or Kerlix and Duct tape with SAM Splints. This is to be done when pulse is or is not present, to make the patient most comfortable, and prevent tissue damage and hemorrhage. I taught WEMS for six years.


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## coloradoemt (Sep 13, 2005)

I want to thank those of you who responded to my dilema. I was hoping for more opinions from the other 60 viewers of this thread.

I am not sue happy either. I almost feel bad about even thinking about it. This is not the first time this EMT has screwed up either so I deffinately want to do something to hamper his ability to practice.


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## Chimpie (Sep 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by coloradoemt_@Sep 13 2005, 10:04 PM
> * I was hoping for more opinions from the other 60 viewers of this thread. *


 It's not 60 viewers, but 60 views.  I personally have read the thread like 10 times, your initial post and all of the responses.  You alone probably have viewed it at least 4 times.

Does that makes sense?   :blink:


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## MMiz (Sep 13, 2005)

My first reaction as an EMT was "There is no way.  This violates almost every rule of EMS."

This guy was a coach at a school.  He is probably making no money or nominal money for doing it.  I've never heard of a coach making more than $1 for the time they actually put into what they do.  Why do I mention this?  Because this man must love what he does to be doing it.  As a teacher he must also love what he does.  I think we can all agree that he meant no harm.

Second, as a teacher, and also working for the EMS service that serves my school, I'm still a teacher during school hours, and I can almost guarantee he is too.  Was he toned out for this call?  Did he have a duty to act?  I doubt it.  He's acting in the capicity of a coach, not an EMT.  At school I'm not even on the list of teachers that are trained for the AED.  It's a liability thing.

No one knew that your daughter would have a torn ACL by his actions.  Sure he should have splinted it in place, but he made the mistake as and did the opposite.

Anyone can sue anyone else for any reason, it's the american way.  Whether or not you do it is a choice you and your family will have to make.  You have to remind yourself that:
A.  He's a teacher - He loves working with youth
B.  He's a coach - See A and add he loves a sport
C.  He's an EMT - He has limited training, and he knows when he actually took his EMT course or when the last time he worked in the field was.  
D.  People make mistakes.


I'm sure a lawyer will pick up your case, but did he really have a duty to act as an EMT?  Was he toned out?  Dispatched?  Did he work as an EMT for the school? 

How is your daughter doing?


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## MMiz (Sep 13, 2005)

I'm going to add that I'm furious that people would just plain out yell "Sue his *** off." 

The ED doctor thinks it may be an ACL.  What did the orthopedic surgeon say?  What did the MRI show?  What damages do you have?  

You're going to sue a coach for punitive damages?  Pain and suffering?  Get ready for the fight of your life.


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## ffemt8978 (Sep 14, 2005)

> _Originally posted by MMiz_@Sep 13 2005, 07:34 PM
> * Was he toned out for this call?  Did he have a duty to act?  I doubt it.  He's acting in the capicity of a coach, not an EMT.  At school I'm not even on the list of teachers that are trained for the AED.  It's a liability thing.
> *


 The moment he announced himself as an EMT, he had a duty to respond and render care.  If he would have said, "I know first aid, can I help?" then he wouldn't be facing possible abandoment charges.


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## MedicPrincess (Sep 14, 2005)

> _Originally posted by coloradoemt_@Sep 13 2005, 09:04 PM
> * This is not the first time this EMT has screwed up either so I deffinately want to do something to hamper his ability to practice. *


 You need to file this with your state certification board, both the EMT certification AND teaching certification boards.  I agree, sueing the coach will probably cost you more than it is worth. 

Your real power comes in words.  Write your letter and file your complain.  At the very least, as soon as he announced himself as an EMT he had a duty to act.  By his acting outside his scope of practice then leaving the patient before anybody was there to accept care, someone should at least look into his actions.  Also as the coach, he is responsible for any number of kids at anytime. 

What happens in a game if a kids gets hurt?  Does the EMT Coach go out, look at the kid, tell'em they aren't hurt and they need to get back in the game?  This doesn't sound like the type of coach I would want coaching my son, or EMT I would want responding to my call.


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## CaptainPanic (Sep 14, 2005)

Agreed 100%


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## HotNoldEMTchick (Sep 14, 2005)

> _Originally posted by CaptainPanic_@Sep 14 2005, 09:15 AM
> * Agreed 100% *


 I agree too. 

I am a coach myself....and also a (hopefully-soon-to-be) certified EMT....but still... 
I would think my duty first would be as a coach.... to control the scene, the kids...etc... Make sure the kid is okay... get the parents involved... (the coach acted without parental permission, right? Isn't that a requirement?? That there needs to be parental consent when there is a child involved?)

If one of my children got injured, I would safely move them off the field if possible... and contact their parents, or if their parents were already there, get them involved immediately.  I would advise them to take their child to the ER, or if the child requires assistance in going to the ER, offer to call the amulance service to assist, because they would have the proper equipment to stabilze the injury, and/or offer pain relief....

He should have just done the basics... ABC's... and then get the outside resources that were better equipped to handle the injury... she could have needed morphine for pain...


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## coloradoemt (Sep 14, 2005)

Thanks for the babysitting effort chimpie...

Here is some more information. First the coaches are there according to the school policies to render first aid and first aid only. Past that they call the parents and make a 911 decision. This coach did not say he was trained in first aid but as an EMT. Next bit of info. One of my daughters friends who was injured before VB season was by her side and stayed throughout up untill transport. She is stating to investigators into this incident that the EMT has asked her to change her story.

I do not plan on sueing this guy it is not my style. He just needs to be held accountable for his actions after he made contact with my daughter. As for duty to act that is irrelevant. He decided to act, made a treatment decision, and then bailed after. 

This whole deal is about as ugly a situation as you could imagine. Everyone including us wants it to just go away but I have 100's of other kids to think of now and if I don't send some sort of message now, how bad might he hurt a kid later....  

Thank you all for your opinions.

This saga is sure to continue.... unfortunately


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## Wingnut (Sep 14, 2005)

> _Originally posted by MMiz_@Sep 13 2005, 09:34 PM
> * My first reaction as an EMT was "There is no way.  This violates almost every rule of EMS."
> 
> This guy was a coach at a school.  He is probably making no money or nominal money for doing it.  I've never heard of a coach making more than $1 for the time they actually put into what they do.  Why do I mention this?  Because this man must love what he does to be doing it.  As a teacher he must also love what he does.  I think we can all agree that he meant no harm.
> ...


 MMiz,  I understand where you're coming from on this post, BUT just because someone is a teacher/coach doesn't mean they really love kids, or what they are doing. Let me take another spin at it..

He may be some pompous jerk that got into the field for some other reason,(no other jobs, likes the "control" over children, etc ) He sees an accident, runs in claiming he's an EMT and the first thing he does is something no EMT would ever do. My impression tells me he wanted to play Mr. Macho and realized too late he screwed up and ran for the hills. If he really CARED, he would have stayed with the student until someone came to be with her or take her to a dr.

Maybe he meant no intentional harm, but his intentions sound more to show off.

#1. Not everyone becomes an EMT to help people, Not every teacher adores kids. Way too many times, it's a ego/status thing. I've personally seen this A LOT and it disgusts me.

#2. "Suing his *** off" may be the only way to get results in this case. I feel horrible that I may end up having to sue my doc over my ankle. I definitely have a case, but I'm not doing it out of vengence, I'm doing it to cover the costs of the second surgery. In most cases, suing is not the answer, but in others it is a viable if not the only option that will deliver results.


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## Margaritaville (Sep 14, 2005)

Colorado EMT -

Sorry, I would have responded sooner but I just saw this thread. My son is a high school wrestler. Needless to say, we see lots of injuries. I am lucky. Our county policy requires state certified athletic trainers at school sporting events. For Football, an ambulance is required staffed with adequate personnel. I have been on both sides of this both as provider and as a parent.

It is distressing as a parent to feel helpless when you know something was done wrong to your child. Makes you want to lose your temper. Please don't! The best thing you can do is keep a cool head. Your gonna need it for when you file a complaint against this person.

Make a formal written complaint with your EMT licensing or certification board at the state level. Also request that you be notified in writing of the action that will be taken against this person. You have connections - now is the time to use them! Find out from your superiors exactly how to go about the process so that there are no mistakes. The last thing you need is for him to be exonerated on a technicality. 

PM me if you need to talk. I have to take care of some unfinished business in Colorado anyway.

Good Luck!
BTW - How is your daughter doing now? Let us know.


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## TTLWHKR (Sep 14, 2005)

No...

Never rely on your state EMS to take care of the problem. We broke protocols left & right, just b/c we knew PA wouldn't do anything about it. If you want your words to be heard, you need to do it in a court of law, through your attorney. While your at it, may as well sue his *** off and the school district for endangerment. A couple, ten million, ensure your child's future and education... New car(s), house, vacation, personal trainer, maybe her own sports team.


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## Chimpie (Sep 14, 2005)

> _Originally posted by TTLWHKR_@Sep 14 2005, 10:23 PM
> * While your at it, may as well sue his *** off and the school district for endangerment. A couple, ten million, ensure your child's future and education... New car(s), house, vacation, personal trainer, maybe her own sports team. *


Yeah, because the damage he caused is worth millions.  Whatever.  If he would sue there would be no need for anything more than paying for the hospital bill and maybe a few grand for pain and suffering.  Anything more is just wrong.


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## Summit (Sep 14, 2005)

The guy said he was an EMT... from that point on he was bound to be one to the limits of the law.

Get the state one him. Sue and settle to be sure.


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## DFDEMS (Sep 15, 2005)

"I am an EMT"

"I stayed at a Holiday inn last night" (I think thats the commercial?)

When I get off of work I am the head french fry flipper at McDonalds as far as everyone else is concered..


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## Wingnut (Sep 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Chimpie_@Sep 14 2005, 10:16 PM
> *
> Yeah, because the damage he caused is worth millions.  Whatever.  If he would sue there would be no need for anything more than paying for the hospital bill and maybe a few grand for pain and suffering.  Anything more is just wrong. *


 Did you see where that woman whose husband died from taking vioxx was awarded 234 million?

That kind of lawsuit outrages me. So did the woman who was awarded 1 mill for spilling the MCDonalds coffee on herself, and countless others. Sueing has become a novelty and a get-rich-quick sceme for so many people. I would THINK that the courts would have enough sense to give appropriate settlements for each situation and that when some dumbass can't hold a drink in thier hand they throw the case out. But apparently they don't. 

It really pains me to watch the news anymore. I quit reading the paper. I've actually gotten physically ill when seeing some of the crap that come out now a days.

A lawsuit is for a person's protection and compensation when something happens to them that should not have happened. This jackass said Hey I'm da man I'm an EMT, then did the stupidest thing he could have done for that type of injury and took off. He definitely deserves some kind of reprimand, and should cover any extra charges that would have been incurred by his action. I am not saying you should get 10 mill, but I bet if you went to the right laywer, you could.


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## HotNoldEMTchick (Sep 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Wingnut+Sep 14 2005, 11:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (Wingnut @ Sep 14 2005, 11:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Chimpie_@Sep 14 2005, 10:16 PM
> *
> Yeah, because the damage he caused is worth millions. Whatever. If he would sue there would be no need for anything more than paying for the hospital bill and maybe a few grand for pain and suffering. Anything more is just wrong. *


Did you see where that woman whose husband died from taking vioxx was awarded 234 million?

That kind of lawsuit outrages me. So did the woman who was awarded 1 mill for spilling the MCDonalds coffee on herself, and countless others. Sueing has become a novelty and a get-rich-quick sceme for so many people. I would THINK that the courts would have enough sense to give appropriate settlements for each situation and that when some dumbass can't hold a drink in thier hand they throw the case out. But apparently they don't. 

It really pains me to watch the news anymore. I quit reading the paper. I've actually gotten physically ill when seeing some of the crap that come out now a days.

A lawsuit is for a person's protection and compensation when something happens to them that should not have happened. This jackass said Hey I'm da man I'm an EMT, then did the stupidest thing he could have done for that type of injury and took off. He definitely deserves some kind of reprimand, and should cover any extra charges that would have been incurred by his action. I am not saying you should get 10 mill, but I bet if you went to the right laywer, you could. [/b][/quote]
 Or better yet.... where the woman sues the store because she tripped over a child and injured herself....and it turned out to be her own child she tripped over.... and she WON!!!

Or the burgler who broke into a families house.... was trapped in the garage for several days and almost starved to death... the burgler sued the family and won.


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## CaptainPanic (Sep 15, 2005)

Im telling ya only in America can you sue anyone just for loooking at you wrong. <_<


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## Summit (Sep 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Chimpie+Sep 14 2005, 10:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (Chimpie @ Sep 14 2005, 10:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> That kind of lawsuit outrages me... Sueing has become a novelty and a get-rich-quick sceme for so many people...
> 
> It really pains me to watch the news anymore. I quit reading the paper. I've actually gotten physically ill when seeing some of the crap that come out now a days.[/b]_


_
My sentiments exactly.

<!--QuoteBegin-Chimpie_
* I would THINK that the courts would have enough sense to give appropriate settlements for each situation and that when some dumbass can't hold a drink in thier hand they throw the case out. But apparently they don't.*[/quote]

Not with the lobbiests... remember, this is a massive source of income. The only guaranteed winner in any civil suit is the lawyers on both sides.

Our society has devolved to the point where virtually ever decision large and small has to have the consideration of "can I do this or is there a remote possibility that some greedy jerk with no sense of honor or responsibility will try to sue my pants off just to make a buck? Hmmm... I better call MY LAWYER to see if I should take the see-saws out of the playground."
Which is exactly what all the lawyers want. More business, more time, more money. There is no industry which supports the dissolution of personal responsiblity as much as civil suit lawyers. Without tort reform we are DOOMED. </soapbox>

I'll stop hijacking colorado's thread now.
I hope your kiddo heals fast.


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## Margaritaville (Sep 18, 2005)

Ttlwhacker -

Let me tell you something - I am well aware that in PA, contacting the licensing board probably does no good. I don't know what kind of fly by night mess they have going on up there, but believe me - everyone that comes to my resort is a fireman and an EMT. And loves to tell us about it. It is insane. I am at the point now that I think they just give out EMT cards with birth certificates. (I know its not true, but it seems that way).


Too bad a few give everyone else a bad name. h34r:


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## Jon (Sep 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ffemt8978+Sep 14 2005, 12:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (ffemt8978 @ Sep 14 2005, 12:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-MMiz_@Sep 13 2005, 07:34 PM
> * Was he toned out for this call? Did he have a duty to act? I doubt it. He's acting in the capicity of a coach, not an EMT. At school I'm not even on the list of teachers that are trained for the AED. It's a liability thing.
> *


The moment he announced himself as an EMT, he had a duty to respond and render care.  If he would have said, "I know first aid, can I help?" then he wouldn't be facing possible abandoment charges. [/b][/quote]
 Yep


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## Jon (Sep 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Margaritaville_@Sep 18 2005, 07:27 PM
> * Ttlwhacker -
> 
> Let me tell you something - I am well aware that in PA, contacting the licensing board probably does no good. I don't know what kind of fly by night mess they have going on up there, but believe me - everyone that comes to my resort is a fireman and an EMT. And loves to tell us about it. It is insane. I am at the point now that I think they just give out EMT cards with birth certificates. (I know its not true, but it seems that way).
> ...


 unfortunatly... too true.


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## coloradoemt (Sep 18, 2005)

Thank you all for your responses. Latest of the news is as far as the Ortho Doc can tell it is at least not a full tear. Swelling was not down enough for him on fri to do an mri. So that looks promising. Thank you all for your well wishes. 

I do have a meeting upon the request of his medical advisor tommorrow. This should be interesting. 

Will keep you all informed as new info comes along, and as long as there is interest. I suppose, allthough I hope not, that what I am going through may become a helpfull guide for other parents.

Hope everyone is doing well, be safe, gotta go on a call...


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## Wingnut (Sep 19, 2005)

Well It sounds like she's not too bad, I'm glad things are looking up. Keep us updated!


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## TTLWHKR (Sep 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Chimpie+Sep 14 2005, 10:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (Chimpie @ Sep 14 2005, 10:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-TTLWHKR_@Sep 14 2005, 10:23 PM
> * While your at it, may as well sue his *** off and the school district for endangerment. A couple, ten million, ensure your child's future and education... New car(s), house, vacation, personal trainer, maybe her own sports team. *


Yeah, because the damage he caused is worth millions.  Whatever.  If he would sue there would be no need for anything more than paying for the hospital bill and maybe a few grand for pain and suffering.  Anything more is just wrong. [/b][/quote]
 <hits monkey with the newspaper>

I was being sarcastic.


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## Jon (Sep 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by TTLWHKR_@Sep 19 2005, 01:13 PM
> *
> <hits monkey with the newspaper>
> *


 I'm going to sic PETA on you!!!


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## MedicPrincess (Sep 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by TTLWHKR_@Sep 19 2005, 12:13 PM
> * <hits monkey with the newspaper>
> *


 Are you actually allowed to spank that monkey????


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## TTLWHKR (Sep 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by EMTPrincess+Sep 19 2005, 01:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (EMTPrincess @ Sep 19 2005, 01:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-TTLWHKR_@Sep 19 2005, 12:13 PM
> * <hits monkey with the newspaper>
> *


Are you actually allowed to spank that monkey???? [/b][/quote]
 No you did not... Don't even go there


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