# Defensive Tactics



## MedicPrincess (Aug 2, 2006)

Went to orientation for PM school today.  We have a 16 hour, mandatory for completion of the course, "Defensive Tactics" class scheduled in October.  Director of EMS programs says it will in a nutshell teach us to save ourselves and/or take someone down if necessary.

Anybody else have this as a requirement for graduation?


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## DT4EMS (Aug 2, 2006)

EMTPrincess said:
			
		

> Went to orientation for PM school today.  We have a 16 hour, mandatory for completion of the course, "Defensive Tactics" class scheduled in October.  Director of EMS programs says it will in a nutshell teach us to save ourselves and/or take someone down if necessary.
> 
> Anybody else have this as a requirement for graduation?



I think that is awesome! I am a little curious about the content and the 16 hours. Since 1996 I was unaware of any other program offering 16 hours.

None the less I am excited they are making it a part of medic school!


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## MedicPrincess (Aug 3, 2006)

DT4EMS said:
			
		

> I am a little curious about the content and the 16 hours.


 
Sounds like someone should rearrange his schedule to come and observe....

Seriously...I have emailed the EMS program director to see if I can find out more info on it.  Who is putting it on, Whats included, and the like.  

I am pretty excited about it.  Especially considering the patients I deal with every shift, just in my district alone.


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## Jon (Aug 3, 2006)

I had to do a 6 hour class for work a few weeks ago... I learned all sorts of fun things...


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## DT4EMS (Aug 3, 2006)

I may have to take a trip to FL to "see" what is up. They say imitation is supposed to be a great form of flattery.

I am just happy more places are doing training! Baby steps, one at a time will help keep our providers safer. Nothing is 100% but awareness sure helps.


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## MariaCatEMT (Aug 4, 2006)

*I wish there was such a course here, I would take it in a heartbeat.*


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## gradygirl (Aug 5, 2006)

Hey, I love the sound of doing a defensive training course.

Maybe it could be arranged to have a certain someone come and do a seminar for a bunch of college EMTs at their yearly national convention...


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## DT4EMS (Aug 5, 2006)

TCERT1987 said:
			
		

> Hey, I love the sound of doing a defensive training course.
> 
> Maybe it could be arranged to have a certain someone come and do a seminar for a bunch of college EMTs at their yearly national convention...




Our show is available for "the road" all we have to do is have someone host it.


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## MariaCatEMT (Aug 6, 2006)

DT4EMS said:
			
		

> Our show is available for "the road" all we have to do is have someone host it.



*What do you require from a hosting agency?*


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## DT4EMS (Aug 6, 2006)

MariaCatEMT said:
			
		

> *What do you require from a hosting agency?*



I sent you a PM.


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## fm_emt (Aug 6, 2006)

DT4EMS said:
			
		

> I sent you a PM.



No way dude, not fair! Share with the rest of the class! 
Otherwise I might just have to fly out to Missouri...just as long as you have a good BBQ rib joint in the area. 

Besides, your class (Kip) is worth CEs we'll need to recert anyway..right? Tax write-off!


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## MariaCatEMT (Aug 6, 2006)

fm_emt said:
			
		

> No way dude, not fair! Share with the rest of the class!
> Otherwise I might just have to fly out to Missouri...just as long as you have a good BBQ rib joint in the area.
> 
> Besides, your class (Kip) is worth CEs we'll need to recert anyway..right? Tax write-off!



*That's it, go ahead a ruin my special moment lololololol!  *


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## DT4EMS (Aug 6, 2006)

Bwahaha!! 

DT4EMS (the 16 hour course) is good for 16 CEU's in several states. Yes they can be applied toward re-certification in those states.

Any agency can host us. We will go anywhere if the basic requirements are met 

If we have to travel very far, we need to make sure there are at least 20 students. The fee is only $99.00 per student if there are 20. 

Agencies can open there doors and offset the cost by allowing uotehr depatrmants to send people. The only other thing is having an area large enough  to conduct the training.

We are fast paced and upbeat with the training. I basically run a course the way I always wantd to attend one. In other words, we don't let you sit too long or move too long. It keeps the mind and body "fresh" for learning.

When you look at the "testimonials" of people that have attended the course you will see they have a blast. 

Since it isn't a karate class or law enforcment defensive tactics EMS providers feel it is truly for them.... because it is. From the moment I created the course it was with EMS in mind only.

Plus the attitude of the instructors is to make you better, not show you how "tough" the instructor is. 

It is the "People don't care how much you know, til they know how much you care" attitude we take in every class.

Don't be fooled by imitations. THis is the only class of it's kind. Many have tried to copy us. Believe me, I have sold my DVD and manual to Karate schools and other EMS instructors all over the world. I know what they are doing with it. 

They have my material, but they don't have the "presentation" that makes people have an absolute blast (and actually learn something).

We don't teach "Subject Control" techniques. Instead we use a pattern of building on natural responses to stress. We do add some techniques for "if you screwed up" and ;et them get a hold of you, but the idea is simple:

1) Try not to be on an unsafe scene to begin with
2) Treat everyone with respect
3) Talk first
4) Prevent the punch, grab, strike etc
5) BUT if all that failed then we teach how to distract and escape!

NOT FIGHTING. THink like this..... How hard is to hit me if I keep backing up.

If backed into a corner (again who screwed up here and let the exit get blocked) then we teach you what to do.

Rather than simply lecture you about it and then touch you nice and easy........ we lecture, touch you nice and easy then Attack You. If I choke you, I choke you. Then once you escape it....you believe in yourself.

Once you practice the drills, by the end of the second day we are really punching at your face, really trying to choke you, really trying to push you hard etc.

But before the hands on, you learn laws, verbal skills, body language, proper documentation and reporting skills. You also get a good understanding that DT4EMS is NOT for an uncooperative patient. EMS Providers are sometimes confused between the two.  (Patient vs attacker)


Prevention is best, but being assaulted is not part of the job!


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## Kendall (Aug 10, 2006)

I think that's awesome! My service would jump at the chance. I've been searching for organizations that do that training in Canada. Anyone know of international trainers? (Service is too cheap to fly people to seminars... :glare: )


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## DT4EMS (Aug 10, 2006)

Kendall,

I have received several calls and emails from some folks in Canada. Some even purchased my DVD and manaul. One I know of started his own program now. 

I will dig up some info and send you a pm.


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## Kendall (Aug 10, 2006)

That's awseome! Thanks, DT4EMS!!!


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## DT4EMS (Aug 11, 2006)

Kendall said:
			
		

> That's awseome! Thanks, DT4EMS!!!



You got PM


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## JDFEMS (Aug 11, 2006)

Man, I wish something like that was offered in TX. Either it doesn't exist of I just have had my head in the wrong place!!  (Happans alot, just ask my wife I just work for a Transport service only (BLS, ALS, CCT), but still, you get you're crazies..Considering my company has the contract for the County hospital, we see LOTS of Psychs.


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## DT4EMS (Aug 12, 2006)

JDFEMS said:
			
		

> Man, I wish something like that was offered in TX. Either it doesn't exist of I just have had my head in the wrong place!!  (Happans alot, just ask my wife I just work for a Transport service only (BLS, ALS, CCT), but still, you get you're crazies..Considering my company has the contract for the County hospital, we see LOTS of Psychs.



I wish "it" was offered in TX too.  All they have to do is host us and we will come.


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## MedicPrincess (Jan 21, 2007)

*Sorry...don't think I did get back to you*

Hey Kip-

As nuts as I am regularly combined with as nuts as medic school is I don't think I ever got back to you on this.

This was put on by to SO Deputies.  Basically our EMS Programs director went to them and asked them to put something together for us.  So they took what they were taught as LEO's and tried to make it directed for us.

The first we spent 4 hours in the classroom.  They talked about self defense, types of threats, ways to avoid being assaulted, and lectured on the types of evasion and SD techniques we would be learning.

After lunch we we out in the courtyard.  We practiced what we had lectured on in the A.M.  High blocks, low blocks, some kicks, punches.  Palm-heel strikes, knife hand strikes, straight punches, hammer fists, elbow strikes.... Pretty low intensity, low contact.

The second day we went ahead and beat each others a$$es.  We were in a gym, with a mat.  We practiced different evasions, takedowns, pressure point techniques.  It was intresting because we were practicing the knuckle rub to break a hold, and it did not work on me.  My partner was originally "trying not to hurt" me, but since I wasn't letting go he really went to it.  The instructors came over, and they both did it.  I came away with a bruised hand, that hurt the next day....but my partner had figure a different way to get me off him.

The only part of the day I sort of disgreed with was the 30 minutes spent learning to disarm someone.  We practiced disarming someone with a knife, and someone with a gun pointed at our heads.

We then had someone put on the Red Man suit.  He attacked each one of us individually, and we had 45 seconds to fight him off.  That was pretty awesome.  The person who had it on is the one person in the class I feel like punching in the face on a regular basis.  So getting to beat his a$$ for about a minute was really theraputic.

There was a lot of stress put on the need to use anything that requires making physical contact a last resort.  Emphasis was put on talking our way out of potentially bad situations.

Not to much time, only about 1 hour in the morning of the first day, was spent on avoiding creating situations that may result in having to take the next step.

All in all it was pretty fun, pretty informative, and left me knowing just enough to make myself more aware on calls we go on.  I don't want to take someone down, thats what those really handsome guys with guns are for.  But when someone does become aggressive with my partner or I, at least I have something to draw on to potentially hold them off until LEO can get there.


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## DT4EMS (Jan 21, 2007)

First I will say congrats to your supervisors for seeing the need for training. I think it is fantastic they made you go 45 seconds against the RedMan.

We use the FIST suit becuase it allows the attacker way more movement. It is just personal preference.

Now as far as the pressure point stuff....... again, I was a certified PPCT instructor. As a police officer and a paramedic in the filed I found the pressure points useless (for the most part). Remember people who assault EMS are usually "under the influence" of something that increases their pain tolerance.

Like you said.... the "rub" didn't work on you.......... so what if the guy is intoxicated?

I like the whole I dea of teaching you that you have multiple "tools" in your tool box (knees, elbows, palm heels etc.). This helps you iunderstand you have "options".

The main thing we do differently is limit the number of tools and show hundreds of options for using those tools. Since the EMS provider may go 2 years in between training you have to have some sort of "drill" to keep the skills.

We teach NO punching. All open hand strikes. It is natural and reflexive. It also appears less aggressive. Plus why would you train a female to trade punches with a man who may outweigh her by 100 lbs. 

When you use an open hand, you can create space to escape. ( again this is almost 11 years of research and training EMS).

This is why I say it is difficult for LEO to train EMS. Their goal is completely different. Do I think you got quality instruction? Probably. I think with a little tweaking it could be more EMS related.

I again think it is fantastic your supervisors made training available. My hat is off to them!!


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## Jon (Jan 21, 2007)

Princess - the knowledge of how to "disarm" someone isn't a totally bad thing... if you are "too close" to someone and they go for a gun... a little bit of practice with how to keep the gun NOT pointing at YOU is a good thing.

Also... on Firearms... during my -P school, our intructor brought in a small arsenal of weapons... daggers, small and large revolvers and semi-autos, a shotgun, saps/blackjacks, and some brass nuckles... he showed us how they worked and how to be able to disarm a firearm. I'd NEVER seen a blackjack before. He also showed us some of the holsters that once can use to conceal a firearm... all of it was VERY educational.


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## DT4EMS (Jan 21, 2007)

Jon said:


> Princess - the knowledge of how to "disarm" someone isn't a totally bad thing... if you are "too close" to someone and they go for a gun... a little bit of practice with how to keep the gun NOT pointing at YOU is a good thing.
> 
> Also... on Firearms... during my -P school, our intructor brought in a small arsenal of weapons... daggers, small and large revolvers and semi-autos, a shotgun, saps/blackjacks, and some brass nuckles... he showed us how they worked and how to be able to disarm a firearm. I'd NEVER seen a blackjack before. He also showed us some of the holsters that once can use to conceal a firearm... all of it was VERY educational.



I agree with having the knowledge, but disarms in themselves take a ton of practice. I have proven it to hundreds of officers while teaching the tactical folding knife. 

Time can be better spent on escape moves for the "basic" class and weapon disarms should be a seperate class all together.

Even in our knife fighting and stick fighting ( under serious pressure testing) we have found disarms come by accident. Just look at the pics on my site to see the high level we pressure test everything before we say we believe in it or not.

This again is a reason I am cautious about LEO teaching EMS. Not because they don't know self-defense, but the goals and training is sooooooo different. EMS is care givers and have a duty to retreat. LEO teaches mechanics of arrest and control. Two completely different animals.

Weapon disarms shold not be a part of basic EMS defensive tactics. 

Read RACE-2-REACT. When you realize too many tools in your toolbox keeps you from being able to apply any of them..... you begin to find common ground to limit the number.

Here is an example.......... you are taught high, low, middle, knifehand and twin fist blocks. A person nis throwing a right punch to your face......... whci do you choose (again base this off of RACE-2-REACT) then by the time you begin to exectue your block, the next strike is thrown to your face with the left hand........... 

See unless you train daily, the "average" person cannot pull off multiple blocks. It is all about reaction timing. Hence the DTP......... we train it against club strikes, punches, pushes, choke attempts and even knife slashes.

So you reduce the nuber of "techniques" to pull from under stress. If it is more natural and "reflexive" you don't have to think about it thereby reducing your R.A.C.E. allowing you to REACT faster.


Please don't think I am saying anything negative about anybody receiving training. I am just pointing out some differences in the way EMS needs to train vs. the way and LEO or a martial artist needsto train.


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## jmaccauley (Jan 24, 2007)

Being affiliated with Kip's DT4EMS, I would like a show of hands by all those who "wish" they had a program like this in their area. One of us will get the information out to you on how to host a class,or get some other group to host a class. You can even get a few free slots if you are the host. O.K., now put your hands down and post your location here so we can contact you.


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