# Whats the last thing you stole from a hospital?



## GoingLoud (Aug 19, 2009)

i'm not talking about essential supplies...


for me...PBandJ dawg!


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## EMT-G36C (Aug 19, 2009)

Don't steal from hospitals man.

Last thing I "stole" was an unguarded sheet lying on an already prepared bed. Only because we had run out.


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## MrBrown (Aug 19, 2009)

pen off an ed nurse to do a run sheet


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## GoingLoud (Aug 19, 2009)

thats all necessity stuff..i mean really goodies


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## 46Young (Aug 19, 2009)

I prefer the term "reappropriate". We're allowed to take a reasonable amount of EMS supplies, as well as gatorade and cereal bars. 

Taking anything without asking or prior approval otherwise is just asking for trouble.


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## EMT-G36C (Aug 20, 2009)

GoingLoud said:


> thats all necessity stuff..i mean really goodies


There is the xray machine sitting in my basement.


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## GoingLoud (Aug 20, 2009)

theres my main man! right there!


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## TransportJockey (Aug 20, 2009)

Hmm... *empties work pants* lets see... 3 lancets, 2 2x2s, 1 roll of tape (1" Transpore), 1 Peanut Butter, 1 flush, 1 tegaderm, 8 ETOH preps.

That would be all from a day at work at the hospital today. I usually empty all of my pockets out before I go home, but by the end of the day I couldn't remember what floor I was even on, so I just went home as soon as I gave turnover report to the oncoming tech


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## medichopeful (Aug 20, 2009)

I don't see how bragging about what you have stolen helps the profession at all.


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## TransportJockey (Aug 20, 2009)

medichopeful said:


> I don't see how bragging about what you have stolen helps the profession at all.



Sometimes it's a running joke. For instance, with one of the charge RNs at the local lvl 1, we have a running tally of how many pens we wind up stealing from each other on any given week. Right now the tally is about even


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## Sapphyre (Aug 20, 2009)

hmmm, EMTs and medics stealing stuff is why we're no longer allowed to use the staff restrooms at a lot of our hospitals.  Not so great when you work nights and there's not much in the way of options for relieving yourself.


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## HNcorpsman (Aug 20, 2009)

we call that "tactically acquiring" in the military... and we do tactically acquire essential stuff because corpsman are always left out of the loop... i have tactically acquired all kinds of things from the clinic and hospital... IVs, NPAs, fast 1 IO, syringes, sutures, King LT, ET tubes, a lot more..


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## Scout (Aug 20, 2009)

Would a Nurse count 


And other than clean for Dirty linnen and blankets, Never.....


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## VentMedic (Aug 20, 2009)

Our hospitals have security and LEOs watching patients, visitors and EMT(P)s.   They have no problem with arresting an EMT(P) who is caught stealing.   Most in EMS would consider it a service to the profession by helping to weed out the stupid.


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## Scout (Aug 20, 2009)

Scout said:


> Would a Nurse count
> 
> 
> And other than clean for Dirty linen and blankets, Never.....



I'm going to reword this slightly, the linen is not stolen, we have permission from the management, provided its a swap. The way it worded now looks like we load up on blankets.:blush:


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## medic417 (Aug 20, 2009)

We take nothing but what is authorized.  If we run short and need something we ask.  This topic is another example of why we are not considered medical professionals.


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## Sasha (Aug 20, 2009)

We are allowed to take a clean bed sheet when there is a dirty bedsheet under the patient, unless it's a rare occasion where we are taking the patient to an out of system hospital. Even then, they usually let us have a sheet if we ask. There's also an EMS room in many of the hospitals with things like bottled water and graham crackers etc that we are allowed to take, but we never STEAL and I think anyone who would seriously admit to theft is foolish and needs to get the heck out of the profession, with the exception of pens (It's really not stealing, no one has ever TAKEN my pens and I have never taken their pens, they have either asked or been so busy we just walked away without a second thought.)

It's not cute to steal from the hospitals, only very depressing.


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## el Murpharino (Aug 20, 2009)

It sounds like most here are using the word "STEAL" in jest, as in seemingly minor items.  There is a line that can easily be crossed, especially when some of the ER's have taken measures against certain items being taken.  For example, taping spoons to the top of pens, signs clearly stating that blankets will only be exchanged on a one-for-one basis, etc.  It's as simple as asking the nurse you turn care over to if you can have an extra blanket, or if you can have a mini-can of soda/sandwich, etc.  Once you cross into the realm of taking supplies/medications with ill intentions, you should be tarred and feathered.  It ruins an already fragile relationship between hospital staff and EMS personnel, and knocks us down a few pegs.


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## Melclin (Aug 20, 2009)

If its for a quasi-legitimate purpose then I'd be happy to nick most little things, within reason. On account of the fact that either way the government would be paying for it. I'd just be cutting out a middle man or two.


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## Level1pedstech (Aug 20, 2009)

I know some of the hospitals here in the Portland/Vancouver area are trying to outdo each other with their EMS rooms. I have heard of some nice amenities and little things that make it nice for the EMS crews.

  As far as what goes home with me after a shift in the ER, I would have to agree with my fellow tech on the flushes,2x2's and tape and throw in pulse ox leads and red dots and lots of pens. We change out of our scrubs and into street clothes so everything ends up in my backpack to be used next shift. Of course I have an extra pair or two of scrubs at home but now that our facility no longer provides scrubs to everyone its not a big deal.


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## Dominion (Aug 20, 2009)

Despite who made teh post I will say that whenever I am in the Childrens hospital I usually grab a handful of Peds pulseox.  We don't stock them on our trucks.  Also when we go to the VA hospital I like to get a box or two of their gloves.  I always ask to make sure because I have to get into their locked supply closet to get them.


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## medichopeful (Aug 20, 2009)

Dominion said:


> Despite who made teh post I will say that whenever I am in the Childrens hospital I usually grab a handful of Peds pulseox.  We don't stock them on our trucks.  Also when we go to the VA hospital I like to get a box or two of their gloves.  I always ask to make sure because I have to get into their locked supply closet to get them.



Why not just ask for the pulseox too?  Or better yet, request they be stocked on your truck?


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## medic417 (Aug 20, 2009)

Topics like this make me feel so ashamed to be a part of this, this, I wish I could say profession but it doesn't deserve such prestige when it allows such actions.


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## VentMedic (Aug 20, 2009)

Dominion said:


> Despite who made teh post I will say that whenever I am in the Childrens hospital I usually grab a handful of Peds pulseox. We don't stock them on our trucks. Also when we go to the VA hospital I like to get a box or two of their gloves. I always ask to make sure because I have to get into their locked supply closet to get them.


 
Those disposable pedi pulse ox probes are $40 - $80 each. 

It is too sad your company forces you to steal supplies. All your company has to do is get a supply requisition and see if the hospital's central supply will issue them to you. The RN that lets you take them from the supply cabinet is not doing his/her unit any favors. Eventually they will have to order each one individually instead of having a floor stock.


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## zman (Aug 20, 2009)

where i'm from they have supplies for ems to restock in the ems room.  Iv supplies, tubes, suctioning equipment, electrodes, and if its not there then all we usually have to do is ask for it.


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## medichopeful (Aug 20, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Topics like this make me feel so ashamed to be a part of this, this, I wish I could say profession but it doesn't deserve such prestige when it allows such actions.



I'm not even in the profession, and I can see a major problem with this.  Not your post, medc417.  The thread as a whole.  Why anybody would go about bragging about what they have stolen is beyond me.  I don't recall seeing very many examples of other public servants bragging about the illegal things they have done.  Why should EMS personnel be any different?

Hopefully, by the time I enter the field, it will have changed.  But I am not too optimistic.


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## Dominion (Aug 20, 2009)

medichopeful said:


> Why not just ask for the pulseox too?  Or better yet, request they be stocked on your truck?



We asked, they refused to stock them.  They also refuse to stock bougies and BAMMs.  I made it sound like we're taking 20 a day from there.  We usually get about 4-5 and that lasts a LONG time.  It's not a rogue RN that's doing it, the entire ED is aware of it and when we use them they tend to keep them when we get there.  It'd be nice if I had things like that in every day supply but we don't.  The ED is nice enough to let each truck have a few.


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## medichopeful (Aug 20, 2009)

Dominion said:


> We asked, they refused to stock them.  They also refuse to stock bougies and BAMMs.  I made it sound like we're taking 20 a day from there.  We usually get about 4-5 and that lasts a LONG time.  It's not a rogue RN that's doing it, the entire ED is aware of it and when we use them they tend to keep them when we get there.  It'd be nice if I had things like that in every day supply but we don't.  The ED is nice enough to let each truck have a few.



You may want to consider somehow making it "official."  I'm sure if you talked to the ED director something could be written in stone so you don't ever have any problems.


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## Dominion (Aug 20, 2009)

medichopeful said:


> You may want to consider somehow making it "official."  I'm sure if you talked to the ED director something could be written in stone so you don't ever have any problems.



That would be a good idea I can see from a logistics standpoint.  I don't work for the company in question anymore but may in the future, and if things keep going the way they were and are going for that company I don't see anything like that happening.  The way they see it is "Well the attending doesn't care so why should we."  This area also does alot of nasals and despite the high volume of Nasals we do they still view BAMMs as frivolous and a waste of money.  There are a bunch of other policies that would make your head spin b ut I don't want to air out dirty laundry on a public forum more than I already have.


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## triemal04 (Aug 20, 2009)

medichopeful said:


> You may want to consider somehow making it "official."  I'm sure if you talked to the ED director something could be written in stone so you don't ever have any problems.


See, this is what you are failing to realize.  (and dominion's situation may be a bit different anyway)  Making it "official" means that somebody will be paying for the equipment; not that that isn't happening now, but now everyone outside the ER (you know...the people who run the hospital and the budgets) will be completely aware of it.  All it would take would be them requiring the EMS agency to pay for the equipment and it'd be right back to square one.  Same thing would happen if the EMS agency was requested to provide the equipment themselves; if they don't want to pay, it ain't going to happen.  :censored::censored::censored::censored:ty deal, but don't ever forget that the majority of hospitals and a huge number of ambulance services are run as FOR PROFIT systems.

Right now, while it isn't a perfect situation, as long as the staff in the ER are aware of what's going on, don't care, and, it sounds like help make sure the supplies are available...wouldn't even call that stealing.


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## TransportJockey (Aug 20, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Topics like this make me feel so ashamed to be a part of this, this, I wish I could say profession but it doesn't deserve such prestige when it allows such actions.



For the most part I agree with you. I do think that those of us who work as Techs are in a little different boat when it comes to coming home with supplies, since they tend to get used on the same floor where they were taken from (in my case, usually by accident, since I come home in uniform because I don't have a locker room). 

As far as the way ABQ is set up:
FDs don't transport, so they dont' have to worry about restocking at the hospital. One private service (the 911 transport service) is owned as a separate division of one of the two major healthcare systems in ABQ, so they are allowed to stock supplies from any of the three local hospitals in that healthcare system.
The second local private service does primarily IFTs in the metro area and is contracted to the other major healthcare system, so they tend to restock at the three hospitals in that healthcare system.
Our Lvl 1 trauma center in city belongs to the major university in ABQ, and they will not let anyone restock.

All of the local facilities tend to always have drinks and at least graham crackers and peanut butter for EMS crews.


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## Shishkabob (Aug 20, 2009)

I had the Charge Nurse shove a pair of shears into my hand and tell me to keep them.



Does that count?


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## paramedichopeful (Aug 20, 2009)

:excl::excl::excl::excl:what the heck is wrong with you???? HONESTY IS A BIG PART OF THIS JOB!!! HOW CAN YOU BE TRUSTED TO TREAT A PT. PROPERLY IF YOU CAN'T EVEN BE TRUSTED NOT TO STEAL??!! HOSPITALS ARE ALREADY BROKE AND YOU'RE ROBBING THEM BLIND!!! SHEETS ARE AROUND $50 A PIECE AND TOWEL ROLLS ARE AROUND $20!!! WOW, WHY NOT SEE IF YOU CAN 5 FINGER DISCOUNT AN MRI MACHINE WHILE YOU'RE AT IT???!!! SHAME ON YOU!!!!!!!:excl::excl::excl::excl::excl::excl:


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## medichopeful (Aug 20, 2009)

paramedichopeful said:


> :excl::excl::excl::excl:what the heck is wrong with you???? HONESTY IS A BIG PART OF THIS JOB!!! HOW CAN YOU BE TRUSTED TO TREAT A PT. PROPERLY IF YOU CAN'T EVEN BE TRUSTED NOT TO STEAL??!! HOSPITALS ARE ALREADY BROKE AND YOU'RE ROBBING THEM BLIND!!! SHEETS ARE AROUND $50 A PIECE AND TOWEL ROLLS ARE AROUND $20!!E! WOW, WHY NOT SEE IF YOU CAN 5 FINGER DISCOUNT AN MRI MACHINE WHILE YOU'RE AT IT???!!! SHAME ON YOU!!!!!!!:excl::excl::excl::excl::excl::excl:



Stealing is wrong like you said, but you may want to calm down a bit. 

Also, do you have a reference for $50 sheets?  That seems a little excessive.


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## VentMedic (Aug 20, 2009)

triemal04 said:


> Right now, while it isn't a perfect situation, as long as the *staff in the ER* are aware of what's going on, don't care, and, it sounds like help make sure the supplies are available...wouldn't even call that stealing.


 
They don't care until an audit is ran to determine why a job or two might be cut. Yes hospitals do run on a profit basis. Healthcare is a business. Often the budget that could be for another EMT(P) as a tech in the ED goes to supplies. Few realize the actual cost of supplies until they are put into the loop by their management. Ever wonder why many hospitals have gone to an item charge situation that requires the RN's ID to access supplies? Ever wonder what happens to employees who are caught charging out items to another patient just to give their favorite EMT some extra supplies that are not directly authorized? Yes, they are held accountable. They can also be charged with fraud for putting items on a patient's bill that doesn't belong. Some do break the law and don't think much of it until someone questions it. This could come by the way of some poor citizen who came in for a few stitches and got 10 infant pulse ox probes charged to their bill. All they have to do is request an itemized bill and it is easy to follow the electronic prints in the system.


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## VentMedic (Aug 20, 2009)

medichopeful said:


> Also, do you have a reference for $50 sheets? That seems a little excessive.


 
Actually that is not excessive considering what many people pay for sheets and they aren't even designed to take the abuse the hospital sheets do.


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## medichopeful (Aug 21, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Actually that is not excessive considering what many people pay for sheets and they aren't even designed to take the abuse the hospital sheets do.



Fair enough. 

Still seems expensive. They should just give them away for free!


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## triemal04 (Aug 21, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> They don't care until an audit is ran to determine why a job or two might be cut. Yes hospitals do run on a profit basis. Healthcare is a business. Often the budget that could be for another EMT(P) as a tech in the ED goes to supplies. Few realize the actual cost of supplies until they are put into the loop by their management. Ever wonder why many hospitals have gone to an item charge situation that requires the RN's ID to access supplies? Ever wonder what happens to employees who are caught charging out items to another patient just to give their favorite EMT some extra supplies that are not directly authorized? Yes, they are held accountable. They can also be charged with fraud for putting items on a patient's bill that doesn't belong. Some do break the law and don't think much of it until someone questions it. This could come by the way of some poor citizen who came in for a few stitches and got 10 infant pulse ox probes charged to their bill. All they have to do is request an itemized bill and it is easy to follow the electronic prints in the system.


Yes, and anyone stupid enough to charge something to someone when it wasn't used for their care deserves everything they get.  Didn't think anybody would think otherwise...stupid.

Pretty much every ER I go to uses a PIXIS machine or some version of it to stock their meds and, in a few cases, certain supplies.  Most of the supplies are restocked by techs from either the pharmacy (non-meds too) or (I think) environmental services.  While there are definetly exceptions, not all are tracked for each specific use, especially the more commonly used item; a premade OB kit yes, lancets for a cbg and IV catheters no.  This doesn't mean that they don't have to be paid for and that the bill might not add up, just that certain things are still seen as a write-off.  That's probably not the best way to put it, but it's all I can come up with now.

Again, as long as the staff is ok with what's going on I don't have a problem with it.  That's not to say that it couldn't become an issue and, if that were to happen that people wouldn't/shoudn't be held accountable, just that, as dominion described it, I wouldn't call it stealing.


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## TransportJockey (Aug 21, 2009)

triemal04 said:


> Again, as long as the staff is ok with what's going on I don't have a problem with it.  That's not to say that it couldn't become an issue and, if that were to happen that people wouldn't/shoudn't be held accountable, just that, as dominion described it, I wouldn't call it stealing.



And if the staff says ok but the nursing mgmt never knew, the RNs can still get in deep trouble


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## triemal04 (Aug 21, 2009)

jtpaintball70 said:


> And if the staff says ok but the nursing mgmt never knew, the RNs can still get in deep trouble


Yes they can, that would be this line is about:





> That's not to say that it couldn't become an issue and, if that were to happen that people wouldn't/shoudn't be held accountable


Which would actually be appropriate since they were giving away equipment they weren't supposed to and not getting reimbursed for.  But then, it also is appropriate for them to give it to the medics since their service refuses to buy it on their own.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.  Either way could be seen as doing the right thing.


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## harkj (Aug 21, 2009)

i dont know how it works were you all live but here in arkansas you have to take the sheets and towels from the hospital for the ambulance when you bring a pt in they take the sheet off your stretcher and you go and take a few sheets and towel to restock your ambulance... and in the winter time you get the nice blankets too!!!!!


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## Akulahawk (Aug 21, 2009)

Most of the downtown hospitals in Sacramento do a linens exchange with the FD EMS units, the last time I checked. It works pretty well, actually. I wouldn't call it stealing though... because they encourage it...


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## VentMedic (Aug 21, 2009)

triemal04 said:


> Yes they can, that would be this line is about:
> Which would actually be appropriate since they were giving away equipment they weren't supposed to and not getting reimbursed for. *But then, it also is appropriate for them to give it to the medics since their service refuses to buy it on their own.*
> 
> Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Either way could be seen as doing the right thing.


 
The hospitals and their staff should not be responsible for stocking your ambulance company with supplies YOU think you need.  This should be addressed to the ambulance company by you if there is something the ambulance company is not supplying you.

Sheet and towel exchanges are at a different level.  However, many hospitals have had to stop that due to abuse of a good thing.  

Also,  much stuff taken from a hospital often does not go onto the ambulance but into a personal bag for someone's POV.


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## marineman (Aug 21, 2009)

We used to go into the ER every shift and grab a handful of blue caps for IV locks, our company stocked J-loops but the hospitals preferred the small blue caps. We just recently started stocking the caps now because all of the hospitals requested it. Our service is owned by the hospitals so we can resupply anything we need at any of our hospitals (they prefer that we do it at HQ though). Whenever we resupply at a hospital there is a sheet we fill out with what we took from where. It's never been a problem since it comes out of the same bottom line anyway, the sheet just makes sure items are accounted for in the appropriate budget line.

Someone needs to explain this 1 sheet for 1 sheet deal, I have never had anything like that. We have a huge dirty linen box in the garage at all the hospitals (ambulance and hospital linen goes in there) then they all have a rack with fresh linens including 2 different styles of blankets, sheets, pillowcases, various sizes of towels, and washcloths. Whatever you need you take. We work with 4 main hospitals that are part of 2 healthcare systems but all 4 get their laundry done at one central facility then it's sent out to whoever needs it. I didn't know there were hospitals out there that were getting tight on sheets, maybe I'll start hoarding them and bring a big truck with sheets to a dark alley in your area starting bid is just $10


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## Level1pedstech (Aug 21, 2009)

I can tell you that ER budgets are getting very tight,we are being asked to conserve more than ever. I have always noticed alot of needless waste in the areas of basic supplies IV tray stock,splinting material,lac cart contents, and linens.

  Money has become such an issue that my hospital no longer provides scrubs for everyone only ED docs,OR,L+D and ER techs get scrubs. From the start I thought this was a crappy way to save a buck but when I saw what it was costing it made a little better sense. The ER was a place I thought would be safe from this cut but it was not until the union stepped up that the techs got three sets of scrubs purchased but we are on our own when it comes to washing them. There is a grossly soiled linen plan in place for all employees should there be any incidents,but lets get real every shift in the ER is an incident. We have been instructed to cut and save whenever possible to help the bottom line. We are a non profit and I know patient care is not being affected so I guess we roll with what we get.


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## WolfmanHarris (Aug 21, 2009)

Never stolen anything from the hospital. Linen is taken, but that's because our service has an agreement with the hospitals to provide a linen cart for us. I suppose you could count the single pairs of gloves that I switch into when it's time to do a bed transfer. But this is generally encouraged so that staff aren't walking around in the same gross gloves. (I go through about four to five pairs a call)
If I take any other hospital equipment it is with permission and for the immediate use on the patient on offload delay.

My service does a decent job of providing needed equipment and uses a pyxis system to handle stocking/restocking of most of it. I may have issues with some things, but there's a process to addressing this that doesn't involve placing the my own and my service's professional reputation at risk.


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## Akulahawk (Aug 21, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> The hospitals and their staff should not be responsible for stocking your ambulance company with supplies YOU think you need.  This should be addressed to the ambulance company by you if there is something the ambulance company is not supplying you.
> 
> Sheet and towel exchanges are at a different level.  However, many hospitals have had to stop that due to abuse of a good thing.
> 
> Also,  much stuff taken from a hospital often does not go onto the ambulance but into a personal bag for someone's POV.


I have to agree with VentMedic on this. Hospitals should generally not be responsible for stocking your units with supplies unless you're employed by that hospital (hospital service) or your ambulance service or EMS System has an agreement with that hospital to supply certain items. If it's not part of the agreement, don't take it.

Most, but not all, of the services I've worked for use disposable linens, so exchanges with hospitals isn't an issue. The ones that do exchanges, replenish their linens on a 1 for 1 basis out of the supplies designated specifically for that purpose. 

If you're lucky enough to work in a system that allows supply and equipment exchange, don't abuse it. 

And if it's not YOUR stuff, don't take it from the ambulance or the hospital. I stocked my "personal" kit from my unit. As I used those supplies, I replaced them on a 1 for 1 basis. When I left that company, their supplies stayed with them because... it's not mine. My kit that I keep in my POV or at home NEVER had company supplies. Those kits were never mixed with company supplies. 

Makes for better relations all around.


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## Level1pedstech (Aug 21, 2009)

On the subject of stealing or re-stocking out of the ER. I have  on occasion been asked for supplies from the EMS crews and have never given it a second thought. We have always exchanged linens but any thing else is extra. I know its not my money but I believe I can trust someone until its proven different. Unless someone is taking supplies for thier own personal gain I don't see the harm.

  I don't like accusations of stealing and theft being hurled at providers who are doing what they need to get the job done. I know someone is going to force the issue because it is legally defined as theft but if it becomes a real issue with the bean counters everything will be put under lock and key and will have to be signed for just like meds from the pixis. Bottom line is you should be supplied in a proper manner by your company and getting that right is job one. I think if it was an issue presented to my ER director he would get things taken care of real quick and in the mean time if your short on supplies I'm sure we could help you out.  To be honest we had to put a lock on the main supply room door but it was to keep other departments within the hospital from pilfering not the EMS crews.


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## WolfmanHarris (Aug 21, 2009)

Level1pedstech said:


> I don't like accusations of stealing and theft being hurled at providers who are doing what they need to get the job done.



Ends justifying the means is an attitude that is far too common in failing EMS systems, where the onus is placed on the individual provider to cover for the shortcomings of their system; at the potential cost of their professional reputation. If your system cannot provide the tools to "get the job done," it has failed and you propping it up is only harming EMS as a whole. 

Were a situation like this truly a rare occurrence brought about by necessity we wouldn't have a thread like this and I'm sure the facility wouldn't have a problem. But it seems obvious that improperly equipped and managed EMS services are relying on hospitals to take up the slack.

Profit, or non-profit, private or public, every service and every hospital has a bottom line.


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## triemal04 (Aug 21, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> The hospitals and their staff should not be responsible for stocking your ambulance company with supplies YOU think you need.  This should be addressed to the ambulance company by you if there is something the ambulance company is not supplying you.
> 
> Sheet and towel exchanges are at a different level.  However, many hospitals have had to stop that due to abuse of a good thing.
> 
> *Also,  much stuff taken from a hospital often does not go onto the ambulance but into a personal bag for someone's POV*.


You're right, the service should be providing all the needed equipment.  If something is needed to perform your job then your employer should be providing it.  Except they aren't due to trying to save money, or for other reasons.  And apparently the ER staff has accepted that fact and is willing to help out by giving them some equipment.  Is this perfect?  No.  Does it work right now?  Apparently yes.  Could it cause problems in the future?  Yes.

I've got an idea, how about you get the name of the hospital from dominion, then you can call (or even stop by in person) them to let them know how backwards they are and how things should really be done.  Would that make you feel better?

Edit:  Really?  Show me some proof of the bolded portion, or it's just more whiney BS.


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## medicdan (Aug 21, 2009)

I'll throw in one opinion of mine here. I work for a private semi-rural service, that really only serves one hospital. We perform (medics and Intermediates only) field blood draws, for use in the ER. That particular ER (and labs, i presume) like us to use a particular brand vacutainers, and our administrators dont really like buying them...

So we use supplies taken from the ER (with permission). When we would normally start a line (or lab draws are warranted), we use their brand vacutainers for the collection. We restock whatever we use (draw 3 tubes, take 3 tubes), but have a small supply back at our garage.

It is all agreed upon-- and since when we start a line we bill a flat fee (for the saline lock, not the labs), and it saves the ER some work, and they can bill for the lab test (I presume, including supplies), it is a win-win. 

In terms of linen, it is usually one 1:1 basis. The same hospital from above has special EMS linen (different color). There is a set ammount of it, and when the supplies run out, they put out a memo to services, requesting it's return. I presume the system works out... but it is mainly an honor system.

The other service I work for is much more lenient. The hospitals we serve dont really care how much linen we take-- as I guess it all makes it back to them eventually. Fairly often, on our last discharge of the day, we leave the linen from the stretcher with the patient at home. Our supervisors dont like us taking dirty linen back to the garage at the end of the day, and it is often inconvenient for us to return to the hospital. 

Again, we really dont hear anything about it, so I dont think it is much of a problem...


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## Jon (Aug 21, 2009)

Around here, linen is normally not an issue. On the 911 side, we only transport to a couple of hospitals, and re-stocking is USUALLY on a 1:1 basis.

We have pillows when the ED has surplus ones... when they run low, we don't have them anymore. We try for 1:1 exchange there too, but when the ED runs out and doesn't have them on beds, then our patients keep ours.

Going back to linens: Winter, blankets become hit or miss, and when they have them, we tend to stock up, because otherwise we won't have them later. Yeah, I know... our stocking up kills it. Whatever.


We had one ED that wanted to give us disposable sheets. Great - except that you can't use them to transfer a pt. using them as draw sheet becuase they'd break. So I'd talk with one of the staff and exchange 1:1.


A couple of local ED's have supplies for EMS, especially IV supplies. When we are there, we'll restock from them, otherwise we have stock on station.


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## VentMedic (Aug 21, 2009)

triemal04 said:


> You're right, the service should be providing all the needed equipment. If something is needed to perform your job then your employer should be providing it. Except they aren't due to trying to save money, or for other reasons. And apparently the ER staff has accepted that fact and is willing to help out by giving them some equipment. Is this perfect? No. Does it work right now? Apparently yes. Could it cause problems in the future? Yes.
> 
> I've got an idea, how about you get the name of the hospital from dominion, then you can call (or even stop by in person) them to let them know how backwards they are and how things should really be done. Would that make you feel better?


 
I don't know where he works and he doesn't want to discuss their problems.  

Now, imagine an ED that may get over 100 ambulances or more each day and that doesn't include the many Fire Rescue ambulances which could also be well over 100 easily.  This is just to the ED and not to the many floors, units and clinics within just the immediate system.  Do you actually think we can tell our taxpayers that we are giving over $100 worth of supplies away to each ambulance every day?  That would also be a small estimate of worth of many supplies.  There is such thing as accountabliity and if you have ever worked in management of any type you might understand something about that and the many types of budgets.  So yes, we do have security that monitors what comes in and what leaves our facilies. 



triemal04 said:


> Edit: Really? Show me some proof of the bolded portion, or it's just more whiney BS.


 
*"Also, much stuff taken from a hospital often does not go onto the ambulance but into a personal bag for someone's POV"*.

You are kidding right?  Have you never read any of the many threads on the many forums?   Have you never read some even admit to where they got their supplies?  Did you not even read some of the posts from the person who started this thread?   This is also not the first thread on this forum about theft.   Seriously?  Stop the whining and start reading.


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## triemal04 (Aug 21, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> I don't know where he works and he doesn't want to discuss their problems.
> 
> Now, imagine an ED that may get over 100 ambulances or more each day and that doesn't include the many Fire Rescue ambulances which could also be well over 100 easily.  This is just to the ED and not to the many floors, units and clinics within just the immediate system.  Do you actually think we can tell our taxpayers that we are giving over $100 worth of supplies away to each ambulance every day?  That would also be a small estimate of worth of many supplies.  There is such thing as accountabliity and if you have ever worked in management of any type you might understand something about that and the many types of budgets.  So yes, we do have security that monitors what comes in and what leaves our facilies.
> 
> ...


I know, and I agree.  No matter who the supplies go to, no matter for what reason, no matter if it's a good or bad reason, it costs money.  And if it's not an official deal, then that's money that will not be reimbursed.  I'd much prefer that every service provided each person with everything that they needed so that this discussion would not even be happening; be nice right?  Wish it worked that way, but it doesn't.  And, again, despite your personal feelings on this, or mine, despite what could potentially happen to the ER staff if somebody got upset over this, based on dominions post, they (the staff) are ok with the situation.  Either accept that or don't.  If you don't, then perhaps you should ask dominion what hospital this is so you can set them straight.

As an aside, you work for a public hospital and not a privately run one?

Actually, you may want to rethink your final comments; nobody in this thread has said they take equipment from a hospital to stock a personal bag for their POV or otherwise.  To be honest, I don't recall every seeing somebody post that.  Not that I couldn't be wrong and very well may be, but...well...either prove it, or let this go down as another example of you complaining about something without any facts.  You know...spreading rumors and hearsay for personal reasons.


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## paramedichopeful (Aug 21, 2009)

medichopeful said:


> Stealing is wrong like you said, but you may want to calm down a bit.
> 
> Also, do you have a reference for $50 sheets?  That seems a little excessive.


Yes I do. My aunt was recently tranfered to ICU-West from the triage dept. and was required to do inventory of what was there. I was with her when she did it, too. There is an itemized list of what should be there, and each line has the per-unit price listed. Sheets were actually $48.85 and everything else was 10 times what it should be. How can these vendors/suppliers get away with that kind of crap?


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## medichopeful (Aug 21, 2009)

paramedichopeful said:


> Yes I do. My aunt was recently tranfered to ICU-West from the triage dept. and was required to do inventory of what was there. I was with her when she did it, too. There is an itemized list of what should be there, and each line has the per-unit price listed. Sheets were actually $48.85 and everything else was 10 times what it should be. How can these vendors/suppliers get away with that kind of crap?



Because they can :sad:


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## medicdan (Aug 21, 2009)

I dont know who runs things around you, but here Angelica does just about all the linen cleaning/control.  As I understand it, the facility owns a certain ammount of generic linen-- and the company makes sure they always have that ammount in the building in relation to what is returned.


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## exodus (Aug 21, 2009)

paramedichopeful said:


> Yes I do. My aunt was recently tranfered to ICU-West from the triage dept. and was required to do inventory of what was there. I was with her when she did it, too. There is an itemized list of what should be there, and each line has the per-unit price listed. Sheets were actually $48.85 and everything else was 10 times what it should be. How can these vendors/suppliers get away with that kind of crap?



Per unit can mean that their are several individual items within the one unit. So chances are, the sheets probably come in individuals of 5, stocked into one Unit.


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## EMT-G36C (Aug 21, 2009)

Except for one hospital, we can take all the linen we need/want.

IDPH has a law that we are required to have a minimum of six sheets and two blankets in every rig. We try hard to keep the numbers at 1:1, but after doing four or five IFTs without stopping at an ER, you need to grab more than 1.

They are ok with this. Except Swedish. You need a key fob they provided us, and can only take 2 sheets and a blanket every half hour.


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## firecoins (Aug 21, 2009)

I stole about $10 million in funds to refurbish a children's wing.


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## medichopeful (Aug 21, 2009)

firecoins said:


> I stole about $10 million in funds to refurbish a children's wing.



You heartless monster!


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## Sasha (Aug 22, 2009)

> We had one ED that wanted to give us disposable sheets. Great - except that you can't use them to transfer a pt. using them as draw sheet becuase they'd break.



What disposable sheets are you using? They work fine to transfer a patient unless they are gigantic and you are LIFTING not trying to drag them across.


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## VentMedic (Aug 22, 2009)

triemal04 said:


> Actually, you may want to rethink your final comments; nobody in this thread has said they take equipment from a hospital to stock a personal bag for their POV or otherwise. To be honest, I don't recall every seeing somebody post that. Not that I couldn't be wrong and very well may be, but...well...either prove it, or let this go down as another example of you complaining about something without any facts. You know...spreading rumors and hearsay for personal reasons.


 
Do you not read well?   Read the many other threads AS I STATED IN MY POST for the information.    This is ONLY ONE THREAD.   Have you NEVER heard of such a thing before?  Are you in some sheltered little perfect town in some perfect little one truck ambulance company? 



> And, again, despite your personal feelings on this, or mine, despite what could potentially happen to the ER staff if somebody got upset over this, based on dominions post, they (the staff) are ok with the situation. Either accept that or don't. If you don't, then perhaps you should ask dominion what hospital this is so you can set them straight.


 
Why are you so concerned about dominion's hospital?  What are you  trying to start with him now?  Do you think that his hospital is so bad it could use an outside consultant?  If so, I can definitely refer his management to people who can provide that service.   That is not a problem.   If he wants to post the name of his hospital and the problems,  I'll see what I can do.    However, I think the problem for him is not with the hospital but with the ambulance service he works for if you *read* his posts.   Maybe YOU should offer some suggestions to him on how to get his company to do their part in providing the necessary supplies to stock their ambulances.   

Do you not understand a thing about how a healthcare business is run?   Have you no clue about issues concerning budgets?  Why do you think the ambulance companies are not supplying certain items?    Are you in some sheltered perfect little world where everyone is paid in lollipops?


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## PinkEMT23 (Aug 22, 2009)

*Stealing from the hospital*

I don't condone taking things from the hospital without their consent. However, at my ambulance service we take blood tube sets to draw labs and linens all with the ER personnel's permission. It shouldn't be a problem if it saves the ER an exra step (drawing labs) or they don't mind if you do it but to take something without asking first is stealing and therefore isn't right. If you need it that bad ask the ER and tell them why you need them. If you really  have a logical reason for needing them I'm sure they won't mind.


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## ki4mus (Aug 22, 2009)

In our regoin we set up an agreement with the hospitals that If we used it on the call we can replace it at the hospital. Of course this is not for every little thing, mainly the items used on the majority of calls. 
O2 tubing, suction tubing, IV start sets, drips sets, angi-caths, fluids, our drugs boxes, c-collors, ET tubes and suppiles, king airways, BVM all all avalible for exchange, other items upon request.


items like ETOH preps and bandages are NOT avalible



and there is a picture of me draging a PIXIS machine (hold all the drugs for the ER) out of the pedi-er at Roanoke Memorial last night.........but thats becouse of a minor flood...<_<


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## medicdan (Aug 22, 2009)

I read somewhere that some services are starting to put picis machines in their garage-- to control the distribution of restock supplies to the trucks-- and keep everyone accountable....


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## ki4mus (Aug 22, 2009)

emt.dan said:


> I read somewhere that some services are starting to put picis machines in their garage-- to control the distribution of restock supplies to the trucks-- and keep everyone accountable....



I understand the need for that, but it is sad when you can't trust people that much.... I sign out sheet should work just as well......

one of the girls in my medic school said that the hospital had a picis just for the EMS providers...


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## Sasha (Aug 22, 2009)

> It shouldn't be a problem if it saves the ER an exra step (drawing labs)



They actually let you draw labs? Wow. I know a medic who would draw blood tubes for the recieving hospital but they weren't allowed to use them because they weren't drawn by a nurse or tech at the hospital



> sign out sheet should work just as well......



If the employees would actually SIGN the sign out sheet, it would  I'm guilty of not using our sign out sheets, usually because there's no pen and I wander off to find one and get busy with something else.


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## medic417 (Aug 22, 2009)

Sasha said:


> They actually let you draw labs? Wow. I know a medic who would draw blood tubes for the recieving hospital but they weren't allowed to use them because they weren't drawn by a nurse or tech at the hospital.



Some hospitals trust the Paramedics.  But sadly many places Paramedics have given them reason not to trust them. Our hospital actually supplies us with everything to make the blood draws.




Sasha said:


> If the employees would actually SIGN the sign out sheet, it would  I'm guilty of not using our sign out sheets, usually because there's no pen and I wander off to find one and get busy with something else.



Where's that squirrel?




Sasha said:


> What disposable sheets are you using? They work fine to transfer a patient unless they are gigantic and you are LIFTING not trying to drag them across.



Some disposable sheets are just thin paper and tears if the patient moves.  Others will lift anybody a regular hospital sheet will.


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## Sasha (Aug 22, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Some hospitals trust the Paramedics.  But sadly many places Paramedics have given them reason not to trust them. Our hospital actually supplies us with everything to make the blood draws.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh I feel so special, I got a reply in red.

I don't think it has anything to do with the paramedics, because the hospital is very stringent with it's blood. Must be labeled immediatly, and if the nurse has to leave the room before sending the blood off it must be left IN the room if it leaves the room they are supposed to redraw it. 

The squirrel probably has the darn pen that went with the sheet >:[ Furry little jerk.


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## VentMedic (Aug 22, 2009)

Sasha said:


> I don't think it has anything to do with the paramedics, because the hospital is very stringent with it's blood. Must be labeled immediatly, and if the nurse has to leave the room before sending the blood off it must be left IN the room if it leaves the room they are supposed to redraw it.


 
CLIA has very strict rules about the drawing of blood which is now why Phlebotomists are being required to get formal training and certified.  Even Paramedics who want to work in the ED must go through a formal Phlebotomy class.   Very few Paramedics are taught about the drawing and special handling of the specimens.   

The labeling part is also extremely important.   The hospital will be treating and held accountable for a misdiagnosis based on that blood.  If they treat from a value off blood that has been improperly handled or labeled and discover it was drawn by a Paramedic to whom they have no competency record on file for specimen draws either at the hospital or ambulance service and if they cannot provide any proof of specific training, the lab  will be cited severely.   There have also been RNs who have put their own licenses on the line by labeling the blood with their signature.  At the very least, the RN may have to go back through a remedial phlebotomy course and must have his/her work co-signed for awhile.  

Many Paramedics also would prefer not to mess with blood draws which has been in controversey for ETOH field draws.


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## Tincanfireman (Aug 22, 2009)

We have a 1:1 swap deal with our hospital; we take a clean sheet from the linen cart, then return it with a patient laying on top of it. All we ask in return is their signature confirming they got their sheet back with a person on it. ^_^ Beyond that, what belongs to them is theirs, and our stuff is ours; never the twain shall meet...


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## wyoskibum (Aug 22, 2009)

GoingLoud said:


> i'm not talking about essential supplies...
> 
> 
> for me...PBandJ dawg!



Absolutely nothing!  

Stealing is wrong and there is no justification for taking something that isn't yours!


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## ki4mus (Aug 22, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> CLIA has very strict rules about the drawing of blood which is now why Phlebotomists are being required to get formal training and certified.  Even Paramedics who want to work in the ED must go through a formal Phlebotomy class.   Very few Paramedics are taught about the drawing and special handling of the specimens.



ALL national registry medics are taught to draw labs and cultures. Through a varitiy of meathods (angiocath, stright stick, port=a=cath, and we were even taught to access a dailysis shunt (even though I will probly never use that method





VentMedic said:


> Many Paramedics also would prefer not to mess with blood draws which has been in controversey for ETOH field draws.



EVERY ALS Pt in this area recives lab draw in the field when ever a IV is established (when ever possible) when a provider fails to do this they get chewed out by their OMD...When ETOH is suspected to be involved we use iodine. Not preforming lab draw is concidered to be just as bad as missing an intubation.


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## HotelCo (Aug 22, 2009)

ki4mus said:


> ALL national registry medics are taught to draw labs and cultures. Through a varitiy of meathods (angiocath, stright stick, port=a=cath, and we were even taught to access a dailysis shunt (even though I will probly never use that method









Funny, I was never taught to draw labs and cultures. Nor do I know of programs in the area that teach it.


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## VentMedic (Aug 22, 2009)

ki4mus said:


> ALL national registry medics are taught to draw labs and cultures. Through a varitiy of meathods (angiocath, stright stick, port=a=cath, and we were even taught to access a dailysis shunt (even though I will probly never use that method


 
You were taught to access a dialysis shunt in the field for a blood sample?  Yes, it can be used for an emergent situation when there is not other access.  Just remember that is all they have if getting dialysis is what they will need to ease their emergency situation.

No, you might only be taught the basic principles of blood sampling in the average Paramedic program. Few programs even discuss what labs are being done but rather just give an overview of sample tube colors. Hence, when you ask some Paramedics what labs they have drawn they respond with a "red one" but can not say what tests are done with that blood. 

The NR does not teach the Paramedics but only administers the exam.

Also, your M.D. might tell you to draw labs but that doesn't mean a hospital has to use them if there is any chance of a discrepancy, bad technique or improper handling of temperature or time sensitive samples.


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## PinkEMT23 (Aug 22, 2009)

*Drawing Labs*

In Arkansas we are taught to draws labs and what they are for and how to properly handle them. As for time differential we wait to draw them right b4 we arrive at the recieving facility. I don't know about your ER nurses and MD but ours are very grateful for helping them out.


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## Sasha (Aug 22, 2009)

ki4mus said:


> ALL national registry medics are taught to draw labs and cultures. Through a varitiy of meathods (angiocath, stright stick, port=a=cath, and we were even taught to access a dailysis shunt (even though I will probly never use that method
> QUOTE]
> 
> Uhm....you sure about that? Last time I saw a nurse access a port she was telling me about how she needed special training to be able to do so. I know my paramedic curriculum and the curriculum of other students and medics I know did not cover dialysis shunts or fistulas or ports. We did learn how to draw blood but it's never done in the field here.


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## triemal04 (Aug 22, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Do you not read well?   Read the many other threads AS I STATED IN MY POST for the information.    This is ONLY ONE THREAD.   Have you NEVER heard of such a thing before?  Are you in some sheltered little perfect town in some perfect little one truck ambulance company?
> 
> Why are you so concerned about dominion's hospital?  What are you  trying to start with him now?  Do you think that his hospital is so bad it could use an outside consultant?  If so, I can definitely refer his management to people who can provide that service.   That is not a problem.   If he wants to post the name of his hospital and the problems,  I'll see what I can do.    However, I think the problem for him is not with the hospital but with the ambulance service he works for if you *read* his posts.   Maybe YOU should offer some suggestions to him on how to get his company to do their part in providing the necessary supplies to stock their ambulances.
> 
> Do you not understand a thing about how a healthcare business is run?   Have you no clue about issues concerning budgets?  Why do you think the ambulance companies are not supplying certain items?    Are you in some sheltered perfect little world where everyone is paid in lollipops?


Oh poor venty...I have read many of the threads here and like I said, while I could be wrong, I can't recall ever seeing someone talk about stealing supplies from a hospital to stock a personal bag.  Nor have I seen any posts from the OP of this thread saying that.  Since it appears that you have read posts like that so often...mind sharing?  Basically, either put up, or shut up.  Aside from that, while I don't doubt that equipment goes missing from hospitals (taken by both EMS and hospital workers) I doubt that "much" goes into personal bags (that's not to say that some doesn't), and honestly, using a few posts from an online forum (if those posts even exist) that represents a minuscule percentage of all EMS workers as your justification for saying that...not smart.  Perhaps you shouldn't have tried to use non-existent posts as proof.

I only bring up the hospital dominion mentioned because...well...it was the last example before my original post, and the one I referenced.  And really, I don't care about the arrangement; doesn't bother me.  Apparently it does bother you greatly though, which is why I'm suggesting that you take your infinite knowledge of all medical things and superior wisdom and discuss with the hospital how terribly wrong they are doing things.  Mind if I stop the sarcasm now, it's making me sick.  Seriously though, like it or not, the situation dominion listed isn't rare or unusual; either get used to it, stop whining, or do something to fix the problem.

I know more than I ever wanted to about budgets and procurement unfortunately.


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## VCEMT (Aug 22, 2009)

Some ThickenUP packets, little creamers, pain scale chart, and a Japanese nurse.


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## VentMedic (Aug 22, 2009)

triemal04 said:


> Oh poor venty...I have read many of the threads here and like I said, while I could be wrong, I can't recall ever seeing someone talk about stealing supplies from a hospital to stock a personal bag. Nor have I seen any posts from the OP of this thread saying that. Since it appears that you have read posts like that so often...mind sharing? Basically, either put up, or shut up. Aside from that, while I don't doubt that equipment goes missing from hospitals (taken by both EMS and hospital workers) I doubt that "much" goes into personal bags (that's not to say that some doesn't), and honestly, using a few posts from an online forum (if those posts even exist) that represents a minuscule percentage of all EMS workers as your justification for saying that...not smart. Perhaps you shouldn't have tried to use non-existent posts as proof.


 
Seriously? _You've read all the many threads on the subject?_



triemal04 said:


> I only bring up the hospital dominion mentioned because...well...it was the last example before my original post, and the one I referenced. And really, I don't care about the arrangement; doesn't bother me. Apparently it does bother you greatly though, which is why I'm suggesting that you take your infinite knowledge of all medical things and superior wisdom and discuss with the hospital how terribly wrong they are doing things. Mind if I stop the sarcasm now, it's making me sick. Seriously though, like it or not, the situation dominion listed isn't rare or unusual; either get used to it, stop whining, or do *something to fix the problem.*
> 
> I know more than I ever wanted to about budgets and procurement unfortunately.


 
By your posts it seems you know very little about managment or budgets and I seriously doubt if you have been in EMS for very long either. I don't know what this obsession you have with dominion is, but again, if he feels his hospital needs some direction with inventory control, I can provide some information. But, I don't believe that is the issue and he probably doesn't want you to continue to meddle in his situation. I only made a reply to him about the cost of pulse ox probes and you somehow have distorted that one post into something else for your own agenda whatever that might be. 

You need to examine what your own issues are here with dominion before you continue to attack me. It is as if you are daring me to stir something up for him at his hospital or employer. However, that is not how it works in the business world of any type. I will not offer information unless invited to do so and preferrably with a confirmation from someone at a significant level of management at his hospital. Get some commonsense here and enough with the nonsense obsession you have with me and dominion.


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## triemal04 (Aug 23, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Seriously? _You've read all the many threads on the subject?_
> 
> By your posts it seems you know very little about managment or budgets and I seriously doubt if you have been in EMS for very long either. I don't know what this obsession you have with dominion is, but again, if he feels his hospital needs some direction with inventory control, I can provide some information. But, I don't believe that is the issue and he probably doesn't want you to continue to meddle in his situation. I only made a reply to him about the cost of pulse ox probes and you somehow have distorted that one post into something else for your own agenda whatever that might be.
> 
> You need to examine what your own issues are here with dominion before you continue to attack me. It is as if you are daring me to stir something up for him at his hospital or employer. However, that is not how it works in the business world of any type. I will not offer information unless invited to do so and preferrably with a confirmation from someone at a significant level of management at his hospital. Get some commonsense here and enough with the nonsense obsession you have with me and dominion.


No silly, I said I've read many of the threads, not all.  Just as I said that I may be wrong and people have posted about stealing equipment from a hospital for personal reasons.  Of course, I've also asked that you show even the smallest shred of proof that people have made posts like that...like the OP for this thread, who it is patently clear, has not.  Unfortunately, you aren't able to do that, are you?  Odd, if it's such a widespread problem and this forum is such a good representation of the EMS workforce you'd think it'd be easy for you to find something like that...  Seriously, if you can't back up the things you say and get bent out of shape when people call you out on your BS...tough luck.

Look, you can try and change the topic and move away from your blunders, that's fine, it's expected from you, but this is getting rather ridiculous.  Even for you.  To be clear though, each time I suggested you contact his hospital...that was sarcasm.  Fitting with your personality though.  Fix the problem=a systemic problem, not in any particular place.

Now that that's all clear...would you like to show a couple posts where the OP and others have talked about stealing supplies for their personal use?


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## ki4mus (Aug 23, 2009)

Sasha said:


> ki4mus said:
> 
> 
> > ALL national registry medics are taught to draw labs and cultures. Through a varitiy of meathods (angiocath, stright stick, port=a=cath, and we were even taught to access a dailysis shunt (even though I will probly never use that method
> ...


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## VentMedic (Aug 23, 2009)

triemal04 said:


> Now that that's all clear...would you like to show a couple posts where the OP and others have talked about stealing supplies for their personal use?


 
Did you even bother to read the first post of this thread? 

Do a search with a few different combinations fo words. We've had many different threads here about personal bags. I'm not wasting time to change your very naive disbelief that people could actually steal something.  

I can't fix the fact that you are truly so naive that you believe no one steals. You become obsessed as you have in this thread even when you KNOW what I have said is true. You are the only one who lives in a perfect world where no one steals. You are just here to start a fight...as usual. You've used this thread long enough for your own personal reasons.


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## PapaBear434 (Aug 23, 2009)

I don't know if I stole them, but a nurse gave me a whole box of gloves.  I just keep them in my bag for when we run low.


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## Jon (Aug 23, 2009)

Ok.. Wow.

This ran for a long while... but we're done.

Before anyone manages to get themselves banned, I'm ending this.


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