# RFI. Anyone know what's up with AMR in NorCal.?



## SandpitMedic (Oct 6, 2013)

I work in Vegas and was called up to deploy to NorCal for a week or two to "Northern" California. I used to live up there, so I know AMR is all over up there. The request came from a regional manager, not an ops manager so no info on a specific area. I'm thinking possibly a strike, but I haven't heard anything. 

Anybody got any info???


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## SandpitMedic (Oct 6, 2013)

Further, no info on exactly when we would deploy.


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 6, 2013)

AMR Sacramento might be going on strike. We find out Monday if they are going to strike for sure. If they do strike we leave either Monday night or Tuesday morning and have 2-3 days of orientation up there followed by a week or 2 of working. 

There are 5 people from my division that I know of who signed up for it (there's probably more) and we are a small division.


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## SandpitMedic (Oct 6, 2013)

Sweet

I was hoping it was Sac. My mom lives there. I mean, sorry it isn't working out for them, but I don't j ow what they're complaining about. Starting EMT Basics make $16-$17 an hour. Starting medic in Las Vegas is that. They need to strike... I miss my momma. Lol.


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## SandpitMedic (Oct 6, 2013)

Thanks for the info.
Mods feel free to delete.


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 6, 2013)

SandpitMedic said:


> Thanks for the info.
> Mods feel free to delete.



If we do end up getting sent there I'll send you a PM. We might run into each other.


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## SandpitMedic (Oct 6, 2013)

They will likely have us in the same hotel. I'd imagine the little Marriott gardens that is literally 30 seconds from Sac Ops.

We will see. Surprised no one from Sac AMR is on here.


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 6, 2013)

Possibly. Rumors have been they are looking to send 400+ people up there to cover.


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## SandpitMedic (Oct 6, 2013)

Wow. Really? They don't even have that many people working there. It's a small operation they've got. They do Sac county 911 supplementing the County Fire Dept with only like 6 or 7 units. They also have the IFT  contract for Kaiser. 

Unless its the tri-county op as a whole going on strike? The Sac office runs Sac, Yolo, and Placer counties. That maybe would require 200 people, but 400 sounds a bit much. 

I am eager to get some credible info so I can stop speculating. I just want to know if it is paid like a DRT deployment. As in you start getting paid as soon as you are on the plane, and you stop getting paid when you return home. That would be awesome. Also, the hourly rate is desirable info as well.


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## SandpitMedic (Oct 6, 2013)

Where are you at Desert EMT?


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 6, 2013)

More than likely we will be paid a 24 hour rate (not the DRT pay). So we may get paid the whole time we are up there but it probably won't be the upgraded wage. 

I'm in SoCal at a division called Desert Cities.


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## SandpitMedic (Oct 6, 2013)

Indio, Palm Springs and all that?

I used to work in Rancho/Redlands. Almost got picked up out in Palm Springs.

Cool man. I'm down for the 24/7 rate. I could use the scratch.


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 6, 2013)

SandpitMedic said:


> Indio, Palm Springs and all that?
> 
> I used to work in Rancho/Redlands. Almost got picked up out in Palm Springs.
> 
> Cool man. I'm down for the 24/7 rate. I could use the scratch.



Yep. We have around 12 cities that we cover. I'll make some phone calls tomorrow to our supervisors and ops manager and see what new information they have. I called yesterday and there was no new info.

I imagine it's going to be a logistical nightmare. Flights to coordinate, hotel rooms, transport from the airport to the hotel, transport from the hotel to the operation, how they are going to arrange shifts, plus the orientation we are supposed to be getting.


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## SandpitMedic (Oct 6, 2013)

It's not their first rodeo like this. This has happened in other operations before. They have it mostly worked out, I'm sure. Little glitches here and there, but with their deep pockets they can make anything happen. 

Thanks for checking up tomorrow. Our supervisors here are in the dark. They were told to see who wanted to go and that's all.


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 6, 2013)

That's all our supervisors were initially told. Our ops manager went to the major division in my area and was having meetings with other ops managers, general managers, and I believe some HR people.


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## exodus (Oct 6, 2013)

Myself and my partner will be going as well if it goes through.


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## TheLocalMedic (Oct 6, 2013)

Possibly not just Sac...  There are several regions in up here having issues with AMR corporate, or so I hear...  Apparently asking their workforce to take a pay cut while their execs keep getting bonuses isn't a popular idea...  but the "profitability is enormous" if you screw your employees.


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## exodus (Oct 6, 2013)

TheLocalMedic said:


> Possibly not just Sac...  There are several regions in up here having issues with AMR corporate, or so I hear...  Apparently asking their workforce to take a pay cut while their execs keep getting bonuses isn't a popular idea...  but the "profitability is enormous" if you screw your employees.



How much of a cut are they wanting?  I'd love to support you guys, but this deployment will get me totally out of debt... And at an EMT pay-rate, that's speaking a lot.

Edit: You can PM me the cut rate if you don't want to say it publically; I won't post it on here.


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## TheLocalMedic (Oct 7, 2013)

exodus said:


> How much of a cut are they wanting?  I'd love to support you guys, but this deployment will get me totally out of debt... And at an EMT pay-rate, that's speaking a lot.
> 
> Edit: You can PM me the cut rate if you don't want to say it publically; I won't post it on here.



I heard that it was 10% across the board.  Which is pretty huge if you ask me.


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## exodus (Oct 7, 2013)

TheLocalMedic said:


> I heard that it was 10% across the board.  Which is pretty huge if you ask me.



What's the pay like up there?


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## SandpitMedic (Oct 7, 2013)

EMT Bs start at like 16-17 per hour. Medics 21ish. That's in Sacramento. 

Any news????


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## exodus (Oct 7, 2013)

SandpitMedic said:


> EMT Bs start at like 16-17 per hour. Medics 21ish. That's in Sacramento.
> 
> Any news????



Nothin yet? And wow... That's crazy high. We start around 10 here..


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## SandpitMedic (Oct 7, 2013)

I know. That's why I said I don't know what they're complaining about. I suppose you get used to that income, but if you look at the broad pay across the board they are certainly one of the highest paid operations of any company. In the Bay Area, I can see this as justifiable due to the insane cost of living; the Central Valley like Stockton, Sac, Placer, Yolo, etc do not have a high cost of living. When I worked Rancho/Redlands in San Bernadino County I made like 9.67 and hour doing IFT & 911, and the cost of living was probably like 25% higher than when I lived in Sacramento, yet those dudes are making loot. It is not comparable to anywhere else, and while I feel for them because they get used to that dough, there are thousands of us elsewhere working for 8-12 an hour putting up with the same bs daily, and not complaining. 

I'm not really sure what the deal is up there, or if the rumors are true about the 10% cut and their potential strike. All I'm saying is they have been making out like bandits; making what we ALL should be making at a base salary for the responsibilities we undertake.


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## TransportJockey (Oct 7, 2013)

I'm sad they haven't asked NM operations... but then again we are so short staffed that it's ridiculous.

But I would gladly go cover NorCal...

We had a person that claimed they were from the union in NorCal at my operation, trying to get signatures of support for their striking.


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## exodus (Oct 7, 2013)

SandpitMedic said:


> I know. That's why I said I don't know what they're complaining about. I suppose you get used to that income, but if you look at the broad pay across the board they are certainly one of the highest paid operations of any company. In the Bay Area, I can see this as justifiable due to the insane cost of living; the Central Valley like Stockton, Sac, Placer, Yolo, etc do not have a high cost of living. When I worked Rancho/Redlands in San Bernadino County I made like 9.67 and hour doing IFT & 911, and the cost of living was probably like 25% higher than when I lived in Sacramento, yet those dudes are making loot. It is not comparable to anywhere else, and while I feel for them because they get used to that dough, there are thousands of us elsewhere working for 8-12 an hour putting up with the same bs daily, and not complaining.
> 
> I'm not really sure what the deal is up there, or if the rumors are true about the 10% cut and their potential strike. All I'm saying is they have been making out like bandits; making what we ALL should be making at a base salary for the responsibilities we undertake.



I really don't feel as bad covering for them now. People down here would kill for those wages, but we all know that it will not happen no matter what.


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 7, 2013)

Still haven't heard anything :/

Trying to talk a newer employee into calling and bugging the supervisors about it but he said no lol


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## 9D4 (Oct 7, 2013)

exodus said:


> I really don't feel as bad covering for them now. People down here would kill for those wages, but we all know that it will not happen no matter what.


It is somewhat understandable, though. I would feel quite a bit put out if I was getting $20/ hour and then all the sudden took a 10% cut, while bonuses higher up just go higher. 
I mean $20/ hr at a 40 hour work week is 40k/ year. 10% of that is 4,000 that you're not getting paid yearly, or $330 bucks a month. 
That's a decent chunk of change. Especially if I got myself into bills that I no longer will be able to pay. I mean, for me that $330 a month would cover my car insurance, phone bill, and all my gas for an average month with an extra $40 left over.

So, like I said, I can see where they're coming from. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I can see their reasons.
Edit: Of course, I can see where you guys are saying that their wages are incredibly good and they don't have the ground to stand on, also.


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## SandpitMedic (Oct 7, 2013)

Agree. I see both sides. I do feel for them for that reason, but they are like the kings of the castle, being knocked down to princes. Still better than the rest of us peasants. 

I would be pissed if I was them. Unfortunately, EMS is a dog eat dog business. We aren't like the police, we aren't like the fire dept. The public doesn't care, your EMS brethren (like us) will gladly take you place during a 24 pay rate deployment to meet our own financial needs, and the company only cares about their bottom dollar. All privates companies are the same. Stuff happens.


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## SandpitMedic (Oct 7, 2013)

And I don't mean to be insensitive to those who may be in a crappy predicament like this, but I'm a realist. The real world is rough sometimes.


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## exodus (Oct 7, 2013)

9D4 said:


> It is somewhat understandable, though. I would feel quite a bit put out if I was getting $20/ hour and then all the sudden took a 10% cut, while bonuses higher up just go higher.
> I mean $20/ hr at a 40 hour work week is 40k/ year. 10% of that is 4,000 that you're not getting paid yearly, or $330 bucks a month.
> That's a decent chunk of change. Especially if I got myself into bills that I no longer will be able to pay. I mean, for me that $330 a month would cover my car insurance, phone bill, and all my gas for an average month with an extra $40 left over.
> 
> ...



But they are still making over 1,000 more a month than me with a lower cost of living from what I am hearing.  Yeah it sucks, but they really do seem to be making much more than anyone else


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## 9D4 (Oct 7, 2013)

exodus said:


> But they are still making over 1,000 more a month than me with a lower cost of living from what I am hearing.  Yeah it sucks, but they really do seem to be making much more than anyone else


Like I said, both sides are entirely understandable. 
I think a lot of them would be understandably worried about the future of their employment, also. What's to stop said higher ups from saying "I want a bigger bonus, 10% cuts again"? That would be more of my own personal fear is that this would be continuous. 
However, the employees also need to realize they got a damn good thing going and they are entirely replaceable by people that will do it cheaper, which is actually kind of showing in this thread, no offense meant to anyone. 
I agree wholeheartedly that they need to stop, because they honestly have a whole lot to :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: about, unless there's something besides pay. 
I wad only trying to point out the other side of the spectrum.


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## TheLocalMedic (Oct 7, 2013)

Granted, NorCal does have it better than some areas.  But that's because we unionized and fought for every bit we have.  Cost of living is also high in this area, but then again, we also have a good payor mix and run a lot of 911 and IFTs.  It's a shame and entirely disrespectful that other areas are not making similar wages, but they first have to stand up, stand united and fight for themselves before we can help them raise the bar!

For anyone out there who is supposed to be headed up to Sac or other areas in Norther California, just remember that what you are doing is less about making extra cash for yourself and more about supporting a corporation who wants to scale back hard earned wages for their employees while granting larger bonuses to corporate executives.  If you don't think AMR will arbitrarily cut your wages...  well, they already have.  

Crossing a picket line is not entirely without risk either.  You will be noted, your name will be added to a list, and you will not be able find work in any union shop after that.  

Want to go fire at some point in your career?  Not if you cross a picket line.  FD is all union, and they don't want scabs.  Want to go work for a company that pays well because their union fights for them?  (and yes, we do pay that union to fight) You won't be able to get that job if you cross picket lines.  

I know many of you out there are not union, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't care about your brothers and sisters who are.  _IF_ AMR forces a strike, it will be because they are at fault for trying to hurt and demean their workforce.  Unions don't want to bring corporations to their knees, but in an era of decreasing wages and increasing executive salaries and bonuses, we have to stand up and fight for what is right!

Stand United!


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 8, 2013)

TheLocalMedic said:


> Crossing a picket line is not entirely without risk either.  You will be noted, your name will be added to a list, and you will not be able find work in any union shop after that.
> 
> Want to go fire at some point in your career?  Not if you cross a picket line.  FD is all union, and they don't want scabs.  Want to go work for a company that pays well because their union fights for them?  (and yes, we do pay that union to fight) You won't be able to get that job if you cross picket lines.



Funny, I know a lot of our past employees who crossed the picket lines in LA county when they were on strike and they have been picked up by all sorts of different fire companies. 

My name may get seen an heck may end up on a list. Will that prevent me from getting hired on to different places? As I have already seen, no. 

Is it wrong that the company may be cutting wages? Yes it is. Is it wrong to leave an area without EMS coverage (only harming citizens that have no part in the drama)? Yes, it is very wrong. This is a main reason a lot of fire departments have contracts that say they can not strike. 

I don't really want to pull out the old saying of "what if it was your family who needed help?" But it is relevant. Would I be pissed if a family member died because of no ambulances due to a strike? Heck yes. 

The strike will effect operations in the area. If upper management deems that area to be a non-revenue(sp?) producing, they more than likely pull the plug on that division.


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## epipusher (Oct 8, 2013)

No "list" exists. Typical union propaganda.


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## TheLocalMedic (Oct 8, 2013)

Perhaps you have seen people who have crossed picket lines get fire jobs, but I also know of many who have had to move far out of the area to find any work after doing so.  EMS is a small world with a long memory, and I personally wouldn't jeopardize my career by crossing the lines to hurt my brothers.  

But if you feel strong anti-union sentiments and think a corporation will stay by your side when the going gets tough, that's your own prerogative.  

Besides, who's to say that a full walk-off strike initiated by the workforce is going to be the primary tactic?  

It is not unknown for a company to initiate a lockout during a labor dispute and bring in scabs.  That's what many are afraid of.  That the corporation will boot the workforce out and temporarily hire new non-union people to truly stick it to the current employees and try to starve them out.  

Crossing the line in this instance isn't justifiable under the argument of going to work "for the good of the people" who wouldn't be receiving 911 services.  It isn't the workforce abandoning their people, but rather the company showing disregard for the wellbeing of the community by locking out its existing workforce because they want to pay them less and hope that they can wait them out.


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## SandpitMedic (Oct 8, 2013)

Cut it. This isn't a pro/anti union debate. Simply a request for info on a possible deployment. Reasons why/why not to go are not germane.

Normal is relative. What is normal for the spider is chaos for the cricket. 
This is how the world works, this is how business works. As I said, I'm a realist.

So stop it. None of that union stuff matters.


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## exodus (Oct 8, 2013)

TheLocalMedic said:


> Perhaps you have seen people who have crossed picket lines get fire jobs, but I also know of many who have had to move far out of the area to find any work after doing so.  EMS is a small world with a long memory, and I personally wouldn't jeopardize my career by crossing the lines to hurt my brothers.
> 
> But if you feel strong anti-union sentiments and think a corporation will stay by your side when the going gets tough, that's your own prerogative.
> 
> ...




For a dollar or two an hour paycut...

Edit: And the union did by threatening to put in the intent to strike letter.


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 8, 2013)

Date to hear if we are going up there has been pushed back to the 10th of this month. The date could be pushed back again.


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## SandpitMedic (Oct 8, 2013)

Thx for the update.


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## SandpitMedic (Oct 9, 2013)

Anyone with further is encouraged to reply or join and reply.


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## TheLocalMedic (Oct 9, 2013)

exodus said:


> For a dollar or two an hour paycut...
> 
> Edit: And the union did by threatening to put in the intent to strike letter.



Strike doesn't mean a full walk off.  It also allows other tactics like slow downs.  That letter was a way of telling the company that there would be repercussions if they continued to refuse to negotiate.  

As of now, I believe AMR has still not come to the table like they were supposed to this week...


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 9, 2013)

TheLocalMedic said:


> Strike doesn't mean a full walk off.  It also allows other tactics like slow downs.  That letter was a way of telling the company that there would be repercussions if they continued to refuse to negotiate.
> 
> As of now, I believe AMR has still not come to the table like they were supposed to this week...



One of the many problems with striking in EMS in CA is there are 1,000 other EMTs/medics who will gladly take the job. This was made clearly evident during our coverage of the Gold Cross ambulance strike. 32 of their employees striking were fired. They hired 16 of them back and easily filled the other open positions. The employees who were striking either gained nothing at all or lost their jobs. 

Not saying AMR will or even could do this. Just stating what could happen.


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## Amberlamps916 (Oct 9, 2013)

DesertEMT66 said:


> One of the many problems with striking in EMS in CA is there are 1,000 other EMTs/medics who will gladly take the job. This was made clearly evident during our coverage of the Gold Cross ambulance strike. 32 of their employees striking were fired. They hired 16 of them back and easily filled the other open positions. The employees who were striking either gained nothing at all or lost their jobs.
> 
> Not saying AMR will or even could do this. Just stating what could happen.



Whatever happened with that Gold Cross strike anyway?


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 9, 2013)

Addrobo said:


> Whatever happened with that Gold Cross strike anyway?



Fired all the employees striking, 32 of them. Hired 16 of those back with none of the things they were asking for. Filled the other open positions with other EMTs and Medics that turned in applications. 

So in reality all they were successful in doing was losing pay (not working when they were striking) and getting some employees fired. So not successful at all.


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## SandpitMedic (Oct 9, 2013)

So are we going or what... Man
I hate not knowing.


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 9, 2013)

SandpitMedic said:


> So are we going or what... Man
> I hate not knowing.



My supervisor put it good the other day "we are on standby to hear more info" haha.


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## SandpitMedic (Oct 9, 2013)

LOLz

Weaksauce
Hopefully I hear something by Friday.

I can't believe no one from there is on this board.


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 9, 2013)

SandpitMedic said:


> LOLz
> 
> Weaksauce
> Hopefully I hear something by Friday.
> ...



I was told we should get more info by tomorrow so we will see. I'll either post or send you a PM if I get anymore info.


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## SandpitMedic (Oct 9, 2013)

Just post
I'm sure there are more who want to know.


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## SandpitMedic (Oct 10, 2013)

My manager today said it doesn't look like we are deploying.


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## TheLocalMedic (Oct 11, 2013)

AMR at least started showing up to the bargaining meetings, which is a nice change...


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## Stl (Oct 11, 2013)

*A handful of us from St. Louis is signed up*

We were supposed to go to Cali yesterday and was put on hold. There were a 10 or more ready and packed to go. no info was given at all about why. I just now stumbled across this....


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 11, 2013)

Stl said:


> We were supposed to go to Cali yesterday and was put on hold. There were a 10 or more ready and packed to go. no info was given at all about why. I just now stumbled across this....



They are in talks right now which is causing the delay. From what I've been hearing they are far from making an agreement. 

We have been placed on a "stand by for more info".


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## Stl (Oct 11, 2013)

We are constantly deploying everywhere. We are overrun with medics and are always sent to other states, and usually 2 out of the 10-20 that go end up loving it and staying.


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## gtucker (Oct 11, 2013)

Same thing whe're hearing in hemet.  Five on standby to go.


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## TheLocalMedic (Oct 11, 2013)

Here's a question:  How do people from out of state/county get quickly certified?  My experience with CA is that it can take weeks for the state to process paperwork, and counties also take time.  Some counties also require that an evaluator examine the transfer/new medic perform a number of ALS calls prior to them being allowed to work in the county.  

So how can AMR take a group of people and put them to work in another area where they are unfamiliar with the protocols and also get them state/county certified?


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## gtucker (Oct 11, 2013)

I would imagine it works like are disaster response team.  Different people grab from all over the country. I know you just follow your own county protocols. Just a guess though.


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## Stl (Oct 11, 2013)

TheLocalMedic said:


> Here's a question:  How do people from out of state/county get quickly certified?  My experience with CA is that it can take weeks for the state to process paperwork, and counties also take time.  Some counties also require that an evaluator examine the transfer/new medic perform a number of ALS calls prior to them being allowed to work in the county.
> 
> So how can AMR take a group of people and put them to work in another area where they are unfamiliar with the protocols and also get them state/county certified?



We take a protocol test for the area We will be serving. And everyone has to be nr, and it took a week max to get the state licenses. Is it right? Ehhh, who knows... We are all a dime a dozen...


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## Stl (Oct 11, 2013)

We were in mass whenever the bombings took place and their protocol test was hard. 13 of our coworkers couldn't go because they failed the protocol test... It was different than our protocols here


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## Stl (Oct 11, 2013)

I feel like a travel nurse without BIG PAY!!


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 11, 2013)

The talk was to go up before the strike happened and do a week long stay up there getting familiar with the area, hospitals, and get certified up there. 

But when we have covered other areas we just use our protocols from our home county.


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## SandpitMedic (Oct 13, 2013)

Any new news Desert? You seem to be in the know.


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 13, 2013)

SandpitMedic said:


> Any new news Desert? You seem to be in the know.



Nothing new from the last time I posted an update.


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## Rano Pano (Oct 16, 2013)

SoCal operations are starting to look outside its employees to applicants on waiting lists for temporary positions......

Is it just Sac? Could it be possible it's all the operations up there?-


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## TheLocalMedic (Oct 17, 2013)

I believe there are 12-13 regions being affected at this time...  So that's a lot of people to fill in.


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## TRSpeed (Oct 18, 2013)

Well just herd a lot of norcal ift operations are being shut down. Not good


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## exodus (Oct 18, 2013)

TRSpeed said:


> Well just herd a lot of norcal ift operations are being shut down. Not good



Source?


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 18, 2013)

TheLocalMedic said:


> I believe there are 12-13 regions being affected at this time...  So that's a lot of people to fill in.



But being in CA I highly doubt they are going to have any issues filling people in.


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## TRSpeed (Oct 18, 2013)

exodus said:


> Source?


Aww threw the actual amr memo away but it was released 10/15. Corky should be able to confirm since he works bay area


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## Rano Pano (Oct 18, 2013)

DesertEMT66 said:


> But being in CA I highly doubt they are going to have any issues filling people in.



12+ regions is a lot. Plenty of people will turn down the opportunity to not cross the lines. I know Cali's over saturated, but to get that many people ASAP makes it seem AMR has their work cut out for them.


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## TransportJockey (Oct 18, 2013)

Rano Pano said:


> 12+ regions is a lot. Plenty of people will turn down the opportunity to not cross the lines. I know Cali's over saturated, but to get that many people ASAP makes it seem AMR has their work cut out for them.



That's why all the DRT applications have a box you can check if you're willing to be deployed for personnel shortages. Still hoping they ask nm for people to cross the lines to work. I'll be there in a heartbeat


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 18, 2013)

TransportJockey said:


> That's why all the DRT applications have a box you can check if you're willing to be deployed for personnel shortages. Still hoping they ask nm for people to cross the lines to work. I'll be there in a heartbeat



If it's after my oral assessment for medic school I will also be there in a heartbeat.


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## exodus (Oct 18, 2013)

TransportJockey said:


> That's why all the DRT applications have a box you can check if you're willing to be deployed for personnel shortages. Still hoping they ask nm for people to cross the lines to work. I'll be there in a heartbeat



Bring your girl along if you go!


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 18, 2013)

Supervisor just called to get an updated list of employees who can go. So we are still planning on sending people up. I had to take my name off the list


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## exodus (Oct 18, 2013)

DesertEMT66 said:


> Supervisor just called to get an updated list of employees who can go. So we are still planning on sending people up. I had to take my name off the list



He didn't call me yet. ):


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 18, 2013)

exodus said:


> He didn't call me yet. ):



Call Him up and let him know.


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## exodus (Oct 18, 2013)

DesertEMT66 said:


> Call Him up and let him know.



Hah, just got the call a few mins after...  He said possibly mon-wed leaving.


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## SandpitMedic (Oct 18, 2013)

Oh snap, cool.

Nothing here in Vegas yet.


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## TheLocalMedic (Oct 19, 2013)

TransportJockey said:


> Still hoping they ask nm for people to cross the lines to work. I'll be there in a heartbeat



Wow.  Just... wow.  Any scabs should be ashamed of themselves.


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 19, 2013)

TheLocalMedic said:


> Wow.  Just... wow.  Any scabs should be ashamed of themselves.



And why is that?


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## TransportJockey (Oct 19, 2013)

TheLocalMedic said:


> Wow.  Just... wow.  Any scabs should be ashamed of themselves.



I'm not a part of a union shop. And honestly we get treated better than the one union operation in our state. Besides why shouldi. Turn down massive amounts of overtime? I believe fire/EMS/pd should not be allowed to strike. To do so only hurts our patients in the long run.


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 19, 2013)

TransportJockey said:


> I'm not a part of a union shop. And honestly we get treated better than the one union operation in our state. Besides why shouldi. Turn down massive amounts of overtime? I believe fire/EMS/pd should not be allowed to strike. To do so only hurts our patients in the long run.



Same with me. Non union shop who gets treated way better then the shops that are union. 

I'm not gonna turn down massive OT if I don't have to (I had to this time). 

Our police departments don't strike, our fire departments don't strike, but our ambulance companies do. Why should ambulance companies be able to strike (at least 911 services).


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## CodeBru1984 (Oct 19, 2013)

DesertEMT66 said:


> Same with me. Non union shop who gets treated way better then the shops that are union.
> 
> I'm not gonna turn down massive OT if I don't have to (I had to this time).
> 
> Our police departments don't strike, our fire departments don't strike, but our ambulance companies do. Why should ambulance companies be able to strike (at least 911 services).



We have a no strike clause in our new hire paperwork that I had to sign when I got hired.


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## auxilio911 (Oct 19, 2013)

Rano Pano said:


> SoCal operations are starting to look outside its employees to applicants on waiting lists for temporary positions......
> 
> Is it just Sac? Could it be possible it's all the operations up there?-



Your right, I've been on the AMR wait list for about 2 months, and I just got offered a temporary job for NorCal operations. She said it would be 24 hr shifts and all expenses would be paid for. Unfortunately I had to turn it down due to school and work schedule.


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## Rano Pano (Oct 19, 2013)

DesertEMT66 said:


> Same with me. Non union shop who gets treated way better then the shops that are union.
> 
> I'm not gonna turn down massive OT if I don't have to (I had to this time).
> 
> Our police departments don't strike, our fire departments don't strike, but our ambulance companies do. Why should ambulance companies be able to strike (at least 911 services).



Here's how I look at it after someone explained it to me...

Private ems gets paid peanuts, and they're fighting for better pay. (in fact they're fighting to keep the pay from being cut $2, right?) They're trying to open a door that could have an effect how socal operations are run - for better or worse. If they are replaced in a heart beat what's to stop $12 dollars down here to going to $10? Like wise it could open a door for better pay for us if they are successful. 

As for the they get paid better already so I don't care...... The IE and up Norths cost of living are different - believe what you may but the ie isn't more expensive 

Also the PD, and FD thing is a little bit of a stretch, right? Switch the pay around, and I have no doubt they'll be making signs, and starting lines.

However you feel about it is everyone's personal choice. I just hope we are making decisions with the future of the profession in mind, and not coldness because of ones SLIGHTLY better pay.


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## gtucker (Oct 19, 2013)

From what my budddy just told me there pay is great up there. Emt are make more then medics down here. There not getting a cut from their pay Amr doesn't do that.  There operations generate alot of revenue and hi collection rate. They want a 38 percent raise and dependent medical coverage paid for. There past the point of better wages they are being greedy. Give them are wages from the divisons down here then they can complain about pay.


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## SandpitMedic (Oct 19, 2013)

*Wowza*

First of all! I have worked and lived in both Sacramento, and Rancho Cucamonga/Redlands ( the I.E.) 
I can assure you the cost of living is higher... Rent is higher, property value is higher, costs of utilities and services are higher. Do Craigslist search on apartments (equivalent in neighborhood/amenities) in both areas if you doubt it.
AMR EMT Basic STARTING Sacramento= $16.80
AMR EMT Basic STARTING Rancho/Redlands = $9.57
Both divisions= 12/24 hour shifts, Overtime after 8 in a day or 40 in a week.
Do the math.....

And another thing:
You're all thinking along the wrong lines. 
"Scabs should be ashamed"...."why would I turn down OT"... Etc.

Listen... Fire and PD get paid the way they do for two reasons. 
1. Being they are government employees.
2. Fire, at least, has the best PR in the world... We save cats, we drive big red trucks, we save lives everyday, you need us, here's a sticker and a plastic fire hat, stay in school, stay off drugs, hop on my ladder truck at the fair, here's a smoke detector, look at my Dalmatian, watch your kids around water, we have tv shows about us, we have bright yellow reflective pants, we're in comics and coloring books, etc. etc. etc. I can go all day. These guys are household heroes. Held in high esteem, and high profile.

We're not... We have the worst PR as an industry. 99% of folks not associated with healthcare have no idea that ambulance companies are even private, let alone have to take people out of hospitals to other hospitals, or back to their SNF. Only we know how garbage out wages are. We're also all a dime a dozen... If the general public was aware how little we made they'd be ashamed, they'd be worried... "You make $11.25 an hour and you're gonna stick me with that big needle?? Did you get trained for that!?!?" Etc etc. okay maybe a piss poor analogy, but you get the idea: you're responsible for all this, but make less than a guy responsible for cutting potatoes, and you work for a multi billion dollar company in a super-multi-billion dollar a year industry?? Wtf?

We've been conditioned to think this is normal, and that it is bad taste or unethical to mention it in public, or sit down and have a public discussion, or to demand better amenities and benefits. I drive an ambulance and treat patients--- and I don't have health insurance? Seriously? Top it off with you can become an effective EMT with the right attitude and in just a few months time... So "anyone" can do it (I don't personally believe that) so it's okay to be paid pennies. That still doesn't account for the risks, the exposures, placing yourself in harms way on the roadway or in that stranger's apartment, driving through red lights, and doing the actual work of transporting all the patients. 

It's a broken system. It's the beat up foster child of the Fire Dept that was created for governments to save more money by contracting out and private business owners to capitalize on an absolutely necessary service. We are stuck in the middle, and it is not changing anytime soon.

Union... Non Union- whatever.... We're all using this as a stepping stone; whether you want to believe that or not is your preference. I highly doubt any of you want to be (no disrespect intended to those who are/have been) that old 25 year EMS vet, hobbling and limping around headquarters with a bad back, a big gut, and shot knees, mumbling to himself about all the bs.... He waited 25 years to get paid what he should have gotten paid 20 years ago. It seems that most of us, as I can't say definitively all of us, want to progress to something else whether it be FD, PD, RN, GOVT, MD, etc. And that is the general impression of the outlook of private EMS. Do what you were taught- do a friggin scene size up... Look around, look for clues, look at the history, look at the symptoms....

Private EMS..... Sick or not sick? You decide for yourself. 

My bottom line here is that we're all in the same boat, and this is a dog-eat-dog part of the industry. If they offer me a 24hour salaried, paid trip to CA, to do my regular job... Yes I am in with no qualms. You may think I'm evil, but unfortunately for you I'm a necessary evil.

Ps. I love this work.


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## exodus (Oct 19, 2013)

Also, if you want to make decent money, get your P cards..

So is it true they're asking for a raise?


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## Amberlamps916 (Oct 20, 2013)

SandpitMedic said:


> First of all! I have worked and lived in both Sacramento, and Rancho Cucamonga/Redlands ( the I.E.)
> I can assure you the cost of living is higher... Rent is higher, property value is higher, costs of utilities and services are higher. Do Craigslist search on apartments (equivalent in neighborhood/amenities) in both areas if you doubt it.
> AMR EMT Basic STARTING Sacramento= $16.80
> AMR EMT Basic STARTING Rancho/Redlands = $9.57
> ...



Amen


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## SandpitMedic (Oct 22, 2013)

Bump.....


So? Anything new?


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 22, 2013)

Last I heard we were planning on leaving sometime between Monday-Wednesday. However I had to take my name off the list so I will not be getting anymore updated information.


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## exodus (Oct 22, 2013)

I'm apparently on top of the EMT list since Desert couldn't go anymore, but I haven't heard anything else yet either...


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## SandpitMedic (Oct 22, 2013)

My sup told me they put two lists together, one ready to deploy and one alternate last week after another request.  Then they said that corporate never got back to them as of today.


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## gtucker (Oct 22, 2013)

Sup just said heard nothing yet. They did put together another team as well.


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 22, 2013)

Normally they put 2 lists together. The first list is employees who will be deployed immediately. After a week of so they will send home the employees and send up the second team (so you are up there every other week), Or incase an employee has a medical issue or has to go home for some reason.


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## unleashedfury (Oct 22, 2013)

Rano Pano said:


> Here's how I look at it after someone explained it to me...
> 
> Private ems gets paid peanuts, and they're fighting for better pay. (in fact they're fighting to keep the pay from being cut $2, right?) They're trying to open a door that could have an effect how socal operations are run - for better or worse. If they are replaced in a heart beat what's to stop $12 dollars down here to going to $10? Like wise it could open a door for better pay for us if they are successful.
> 
> ...



The FD and PD got good wages because they stuck together and  fought for it. EMS became a private industry as investors and executives found out that billing for services IFT/911 etc. made money. And with the little investment required to start a Basic service to do transports to work your way to expand to a multimillion dollar company investors soak this stuff up. 

I am a former Auto Worker, and Steelworker and with any union contract there is usually a lockout/no strike clause. where the union will not strike nor will their be a lock out with the contract. 

Best of luck to the Union of NoCal. I hope you guys strike a deal soon.


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## Norca (Nov 7, 2013)

*Norcal EMS worker here....*

I have read this thread and no one here is from our work area so I'd like to chime in if I may. This is my 2 cents and I don't speak for anyone but myself. I am an EMT in the Norcal area.also, I am writing from memory so not all my facts may be perfect. I have no affiliation with our union, in fact I hate our union right about now.

About a year and a half ago the sf Bay Area was given an ultimatum when AMR was sold to a private equity company. When these companies buy other companies they go in, gut them, show a profit then dump them. They wanted all EMTs to take a 30% pay cut or face job loss. Many employees voted and took the cut. Since then, we have been asked to take more cuts. This will continue as long as we let it, and it will happen to you soon.

First, the argument about comparing pay with other areas is a non issue. Yes, we get paid more but all pay is relative to where you live. 18$ here is the same as 9$ somewhere else if the cost of living is lower. When you say 18$ is a lot, you are comparing it to your costs where you live which is not an accurate gauge.

Why should you care about our problems here? Because they are coming for you next. There is a race to the bottom in pay and we are all targets. Their strategy is to make everyone part time. This scenario just played out in stanislaus:

Amr to fire 12 jobs. They agree to keep the positions IF the employees go part time. Now they lose their health care, overtime, any benefits like PTO, seniority, etc. now a family needs to pay from about 300$ a month to over 1200$ just for healthcare, and with far less pay. Suddenly this is not a living wage. You call that saving jobs? Any of you with families to support should start thinking right about now.

Amr would love us to fight against each other. Doesn't it make any of you angry that someone that works at a coffee shop makes more than us? Holy :censored::censored::censored::censored:, the responsibilities we carry every day and someone at hot dog on a stick makes more? You should be pissed off, and I'm baffled why I'm not hearing that.

I have no animosity about you coming in to take our jobs if we strike. Do what you have to do, I get it. But know that in the long run you are hurting yourself and your profession, and I sincerely believe that.

AMR has been sold twice in the last few years, and every time it will get gutted and gutted to maximize profits.they told us they needed to cut our wages to be competitive in its pricing and guess what? They cut wages but didn't reduce their pricing. Guess where the money went. They are showing record profits.

As far as how many this involves, I believe 1800 n. Cal employees voted, and 90+% voted yes to authorize a strike if it comes down to it. It says something when that high of a percentage agrees on anything, because they saw the damage that happened a year and a half ago, and they are ready to stand together, even 911 workers (and don't worry, there are plans to keep patients safe if they strike). They know they are next if they don't stand now.

If I think of anything else I'll come back and rant some more. You are my brothers and sisters. I hope you think about what I've said.


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## Notascab (Nov 7, 2013)

*Scabs!!!*

Regardless of your debt or what you make you are being a lousy scab if you work in a striking area. Do what you want but remember that when YOU strike and others cross that picket line SCAB!!!


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## TransportJockey (Nov 7, 2013)

Notascab said:


> Regardless of your debt or what you make you are being a lousy scab if you work in a striking area. Do what you want but remember that when YOU strike and others cross that picket line SCAB!!!


Eh not a union shop. Don't care about union politics. Striking ems personnel should be fired on the spot. As far as I'm concerned we should not be allowed to strike, just like fire and pd


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## BusyDude (Nov 7, 2013)

*I'm from Sac/Yolo/Placer*

I'm not about to argue with anyone about whether or not striking is OK, whether or not scabbing is a sin, etc.  But I'm a medic in S/Y/P and I'd be happy to answer any questions anyone has (that wouldn't give the company ammo to fire me).

And a side note: I've seen "greedy" written here, and I'm just curious where that's coming from.  Those of you who are chomping at the bit to come work here for the OT... shouldn't you be proud that your brothers and sisters in other areas are making a good wage?  I'd be proud if YOU guys were making more!  Just because I make less than the other guy, doesn't mean he's greedy for not wanting a pay cut.  Plus, there's a lot more to it that just hourly pay.  Obviously, I can't go into those details here. And someone threw out a number like we were asking over 30%..  That's how bargaining works; you aim high, they aim low, and you meet in the middle.


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## Norca (Nov 7, 2013)

Also, forgot to add we have had wages frozen for the last 2 years, with the elimination of cost of living increases, etc, as well. We don't want 30% increases, just a fair increase.


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## NorCalMedic00 (Nov 7, 2013)

You would be "scabbing" for a strike in the nor cal area. Not just Sac area.


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## fire87l2 (Nov 7, 2013)

Ok. I work as a medic in s/p/y.  I can tell those who come up here to cover strike workers it won't be at union wages. So you all need to stop thinking on those lines because it's a dream.  For those who I work with in the nor cal area you all need to knock off the scab term because technically it's derogatory and it is harassment and people you use that term against can technically take you to HR. So we seriously all need to get along. Bottom line we in nor cal need to stand up and continue to fight for what we deserve and if we walk the job needs to be covered so I will welcome the temps who will take my spot. Because I know the strike will only be that.  A temp thing


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## DesertMedic66 (Nov 8, 2013)

fire87l2 said:


> Ok. I work as a medic in s/p/y.  I can tell those who come up here to cover strike workers it won't be at union wages. So you all need to stop thinking on those lines because it's a dream.  For those who I work with in the nor cal area you all need to knock off the scab term because technically it's derogatory and it is harassment and people you use that term against can technically take you to HR. So we seriously all need to get along. Bottom line we in nor cal need to stand up and continue to fight for what we deserve and if we walk the job needs to be covered so I will welcome the temps who will take my spot. Because I know the strike will only be that.  A temp thing



It may not be at your union wages but more than likely it will be more than we are currently being paid. It will most likely be for 24 hours a day 7 days a week while we are up there. So in reality we would be making quite a bit more.


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## TheLocalMedic (Nov 8, 2013)

DesertEMT66 said:


> It may not be at your union wages but more than likely it will be more than we are currently being paid. It will most likely be for 24 hours a day 7 days a week while we are up there. So in reality we would be making quite a bit more.



Maybe it will be more.  But, as you seem so proud to boast, you aren't union.  So they can foreseeably continue to pay you your normal hourly wage for whatever time you are actually working on an ambulance, and then give you an additional pittance they'll term "incidental pay" to cover the cost of your lodging and meals that they will then pay you back for at a later date. 

Don't be surprised if they pull this maneuver, because paying everyone 24/7 would be hugely expensive.  Especially considering that generally during a strike you can't replace crews on a one-to-one basis.  Often staffing is doubled or tripled because the crews don't know the system or the area and it just plain takes longer to run calls when you're new.


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## DesertMedic66 (Nov 8, 2013)

TheLocalMedic said:


> Maybe it will be more.  But, as you seem so proud to boast, you aren't union.  So they can foreseeably continue to pay you your normal hourly wage for whatever time you are actually working on an ambulance, and then give you an additional pittance they'll term "incidental pay" to cover the cost of your lodging and meals that they will then pay you back for at a later date.
> 
> Don't be surprised if they pull this maneuver, because paying everyone 24/7 would be hugely expensive.  Especially considering that generally during a strike you can't replace crews on a one-to-one basis.  Often staffing is doubled or tripled because the crews don't know the system or the area and it just plain takes longer to run calls when you're new.



Supers confirmed that lodging and transport would all be paid for (nothing out of the crews pocket).


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## TheLocalMedic (Nov 8, 2013)

DesertEMT66 said:


> Supers confirmed that lodging and transport would all be paid for (nothing out of the crews pocket).



Okay, so they're paying for your hotel and bus fare, but I would be shocked to hear you're being paid 24/7.  And even if they "told" you that would be the case, I doubt they would follow through.


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## DesertMedic66 (Nov 8, 2013)

TheLocalMedic said:


> Okay, so they're paying for your hotel and bus fare, but I would be shocked to hear you're being paid 24/7.  And even if they "told" you that would be the case, I doubt they would follow through.



I wouldn't be surprised if they paid the crews 24/7 (as they have done that with other strike coverages).


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## Carlos Danger (Nov 8, 2013)

Notascab said:


> Regardless of your debt or what you make you are being a lousy scab if you work in a striking area. Do what you want but remember that when YOU strike and others cross that picket line SCAB!!!



LOL


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## DrankTheKoolaid (Nov 8, 2013)

Notascab said:


> Regardless of your debt or what you make you are being a lousy scab if you work in a striking area. Do what you want but remember that when YOU strike and others cross that picket line SCAB!!!



So ugh Mr EMS professional, if nobody breaks the line and comes to work who exactly will be taking care of the patients you care so much about?

It's simple really, like any other career where there is a hierarchy if you don't like your pay etc etc your actually earn it by upgrading to the next step. EMT is not a career, it's a stepping stone into EMS and other healthcare fields.


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## Placer Medic (Nov 8, 2013)

So as someone who is working up here in NorCal... As stated before we have voted for a possible strike. This was due to AMR refusing to negotiate on a contract that has been expired for 3 years. We currently have 20 or so operations- including dispatch and ift divisions- negotiating on this contract.

I cannot speak for all operations but here in Placer county we provide 911 and under a strike the EMSA will take control of the units and run the 911 calls for service with AMR employees essentially working for free to continue to serve our county. However AMR will not be able to bill for these calls and we will not be able to run IFT calls as we pull dual duty as combo 911/ IFT cars here. Non emergency calls will not get run and will force AMR to essentially punt these calls to other companies.

I urge those that don't currently live here to not comment on cost of living as there has been A LOT of changes in the past few years. Wages are also not the only issue. AMR want to change medical insurance to major medical only with a $3500 deductible before insurance would kick in at 70/30 coverage. They are trying to freeze our step increases permanently and give a 1% cost of living increase for the next 3 years. Since we are still working under 2010 wage scales this is significant when looking out to 2016 when this contract would expire again.

I am not looking for sympathy but only to educate some on the issues here. It is about the employees, and I am speaking nationwide here. We are just demanding that AMR give back to the employees that are the ones making this company ALL of it's money. I would gladly stand up for each of the operations here that are comparing their wage scales. I believe that you each should be paid more. But right now this is about our fight. Your will come and if you need a friend we would be glad to stand in your corner when that time arrives.

You all have bills to pay too. I just ask that you don't judge us at this point, and I will not judge you in return.


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## Placer Medic (Nov 8, 2013)

message deleted


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## TheLocalMedic (Nov 8, 2013)

Placer Medic said:


> So as someone who is working up here in NorCal... As stated before we have voted for a possible strike. This was due to AMR refusing to negotiate on a contract that has been expired for 3 years. We currently have 20 or so operations- including dispatch and ift divisions- negotiating on this contract.
> 
> I cannot speak for all operations but here in Placer county we provide 911 and under a strike the EMSA will take control of the units and run the 911 calls for service with AMR employees essentially working for free to continue to serve our county. However AMR will not be able to bill for these calls and we will not be able to run IFT calls as we pull dual duty as combo 911/ IFT cars here. Non emergency calls will not get run and will force AMR to essentially punt these calls to other companies.
> 
> ...



Amen.  Gutting employees' pay isn't the way to make the company profitable.


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## Placer Medic (Nov 8, 2013)

*Beside the point...*

Just a general question-

How many operations run 911 and IFT with the same units? We get pulled off the streets to run IFT calls in other counties sometimes leaving our system depleted. Anyone else have this issue? As a resident of the community I serve, I resent knowing that 911 units are being pulled 2 counties away to run a discharge. Especially since SAC county is now a IFT only operations but brown out most of their units and rely on 911 counties to cover them.

Just a gripe but trying to get an idea if this is AMR wide or just our area... 

This is simply a question and in no way reference to the above conversation, but since there are a lot of AMR employees from all over on here I figured I would get a better answer.


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## TheLocalMedic (Nov 8, 2013)

Placer Medic said:


> We get pulled off the streets to run IFT calls in other counties sometimes leaving our system depleted. Anyone else have this issue?



Kaiser contract can be a killer sometimes.  There are times in my county where we are taking so many transfers that we wind up with too few ambulances to adequately handle the 911 volume.  I don't know if the company gets fined for giving up 911 calls to other agencies, but it happens all too often.


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## DrankTheKoolaid (Nov 9, 2013)

*re*

Try working rural EMS with 2 ambulances on duty for 1400 sq/mi.  We did 911 and ALL the transfers from the local bandaid station ER to the CVA/Trauma/Cardiac centers out of county which would remove 1 of 2 units from the county 3 hours at a minimum.  Leaving the entire 1400 sq/mi to 1 ambulance........  This is the norm in ALOT of places.  And if an off duty crewmember didn't happen to be keeping his pager on during his off time, then people would simply wait with BLS volunteers at scene for VERY extended periods of time for an ambulance, when honestly at 85% of them should have gone POV anyways, including half of the PT transfers we did from ED to ED.


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## exodus (Nov 9, 2013)

TheLocalMedic said:


> Okay, so they're paying for your hotel and bus fare, but I would be shocked to hear you're being paid 24/7.  And even if they "told" you that would be the case, I doubt they would follow through.



This is what happens when you shun your upper management.  When you know and respect each other and treat each other like you're on the same level, things like this doesn't happen.

And as far as being reimbursed for expenses. It has always gone onto the paycheck following the pay period we were in when the expenses were input.  And bus fare? Psh, we're flying up there!


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## TransportJockey (Nov 9, 2013)

TheLocalMedic said:


> Maybe it will be more.  But, as you seem so proud to boast, you aren't union.  So they can foreseeably continue to pay you your normal hourly wage for whatever time you are actually working on an ambulance, and then give you an additional pittance they'll term "incidental pay" to cover the cost of your lodging and meals that they will then pay you back for at a later date.
> 
> Don't be surprised if they pull this maneuver, because paying everyone 24/7 would be hugely expensive.  Especially considering that generally during a strike you can't replace crews on a one-to-one basis.  Often staffing is doubled or tripled because the crews don't know the system or the area and it just plain takes longer to run calls when you're new.


The last personel shortage deployment I ran, they covered the hotel (really nice ones too) and gave us up to $50 per day for food which was paid back later after expense reports. I got back every cent I spent on food. And as for hourly, no its not 24/7, but it was an opportunity to pick up a :censored::censored::censored::censored: ton of extra hours. FEMA deployments are the 24/7 pay... Gotta love govt money


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## Amberlamps916 (Nov 9, 2013)

Placer Medic said:


> Just a general question-
> 
> How many operations run 911 and IFT with the same units? We get pulled off the streets to run IFT calls in other counties sometimes leaving our system depleted. Anyone else have this issue? As a resident of the community I serve, I resent knowing that 911 units are being pulled 2 counties away to run a discharge. Especially since SAC county is now a IFT only operations but brown out most of their units and rely on 911 counties to cover them.
> 
> ...



The high desert division operates this way.....I've seen them routinely dispatch Kaiser transfers at level 2. We run at low levels consistently. It seems paradoxical to me when we have 4-6 ldt transfers going out at the same time and they have to pull units from other divisions to cover our 911 calls.


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## terrible one (Nov 9, 2013)

And this is what's wrong with private EMS running emergency areas. Their obligation is the bottom dollar and if that means taking multiple transfers and leaving an area depleted for 911 coverage they will do it. At the same time they will continually decrease wages and cut units for a better unit utilization hour. I hope I'm out of the private sector in the next couple years.


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## rebeltech (Nov 9, 2013)

To all you scabs out there! We work very hard in this area to get where we are at! It's not our fault you can't get more pay from AMR or you work in a right to starve state. Please for the sake of your fellow brothers and sisters DO NOT! Come and scab work in our area! If you want what we get paid than you need to force them to come up to our standards not force us to come down to yours.


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## DesertMedic66 (Nov 9, 2013)

rebeltech said:


> To all you scabs out there! We work very hard in this area to get where we are at! It's not our fault you can't get more pay from AMR or you work in a right to starve state. Please for the sake of your fellow brothers and sisters DO NOT! Come and scab work in our area! If you want what we get paid than you need to force them to come up to our standards not force us to come down to yours.



If you do not want scab employees coming up there and taking your pay, then don't go on stike! Until that happens all I can say is good luck with your strike, since employees won't be working others will gladly take the pay


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## TheLocalMedic (Nov 10, 2013)

DesertEMT66 said:


> If you do not want scab employees coming up there and taking your pay, then don't go on stike! Until that happens all I can say is good luck with your strike, since employees won't be working others will gladly take the pay



The absolute last thing we want to do is strike.  But if our hands are forced because AMR wants to play games and ask us to take cuts, then we must be willing to show them we are serious.  What will help us to avoid a strike is if AMR employees from other areas respect their brothers in northern Ca and not offer to act as scabs.  If AMR cannot adequately staff the areas striking they will have no option but to finally negotiate in good faith.


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## DesertMedic66 (Nov 10, 2013)

TheLocalMedic said:


> The absolute last thing we want to do is strike.  But if our hands are forced because AMR wants to play games and ask us to take cuts, then we must be willing to show them we are serious.  What will help us to avoid a strike is if AMR employees from other areas respect their brothers in northern Ca and not offer to act as scabs.  If AMR cannot adequately staff the areas striking they will have no option but to finally negotiate in good faith.



Or give up the operation and write it as a loss


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## DrankTheKoolaid (Nov 10, 2013)

Stand corrected


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## fire87l2 (Nov 10, 2013)

No, this is an 18 county core with EMT-B, EMT-P, VST and CCT-RNs that are threatening to go on strike. No idea where you heard it was just EMT basics. Approximately 1,800 employees total (or 10% of AMR)


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## DesertMedic66 (Nov 10, 2013)

fire87l2 said:


> No, this is an 18 county core with EMT-B, EMT-P, VST and CCT-RNs that are threatening to go on strike. No idea where you heard it was just EMT basics. Approximately 1,800 employees total (or 10% of AMR)



Not to sound like a jerk but 18 counties and just 1,800 employees (total employees or just those going on strike)? That is not a lot at all.


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## fire87l2 (Nov 10, 2013)

DesertEMT66 said:


> Not to sound like a jerk but 18 counties and just 1,800 employees (total employees or just those going on strike)? That is not a lot at all.



AMR has an estimated 18,000 employees nationwide. 18 counties covers around 80% of the entire Northern California Area and these 18 counties combined have a total of 1,800 employees


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## DesertMedic66 (Nov 10, 2013)

fire87l2 said:


> AMR has an estimated 18,000 employees nationwide. 18 counties covers around 80% of the entire Northern California Area and these 18 counties combined have a total of 1,800 employees



That's still not that much compared to other areas. In my area there is 1,800+ between 2 counties.


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## exodus (Nov 11, 2013)

TheLocalMedic said:


> The absolute last thing we want to do is strike.  But if our hands are forced because AMR wants to play games and ask us to take cuts, then we must be willing to show them we are serious.  What will help us to avoid a strike is if AMR employees from other areas respect their brothers in northern Ca and not offer to act as scabs.  If AMR cannot adequately staff the areas striking they will have no option but to finally negotiate in good faith.



Aren't you guys trying for a 30% raise?


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## Rano Pano (Nov 11, 2013)

exodus said:


> Aren't you guys trying for a 30% raise?



From reading the not too distant pages of this thread "30%" was a number to start negotiations from the employees side. It doesn't sound like there are any negotiations at all during this point.

I personally hope the employees striking can get an increase in pay. I understand not everyone feels the same, and that's fine. The arguments about "EMT isn't a career, so the pay should suck" & " you get paid more then me so I don't care" are lame though. It reminds me something a kid would say.

Someone in the recent months told me we need to strive to better the profession we are in. We need to leave it better then we found it. Normally this is the kind of thing I'd write of as cheesy, and think belongs in a Disney movie, but for some reason it struck me, and stayed with me.

I am the first to say I know little about the fine details up North, but what I do know I believe this this is an opportunity for positive change for us at AMR - even in SoCal.


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## TheLocalMedic (Nov 11, 2013)

The 30% number being kicked around is not accurate.  We are asking for cost of living increases to make up for wage freezes over the last several years, and yes, when negotiating the idea is to "ask for the moon" so you can settle on a fair increase in the end.  But we never asked for 30%.  That's just silly. 

I know that AMR employees in other areas aren't making a livable wage, but that shouldn't create a divide between them and their united brothers.  Instead they should be inspired by seeing how a union can stand up for employees to help them make a fair wage with benefits for the work they do.  In an era of increasing executive salaries and companies being owned by huge investment firms, it is more important than ever that employees band together to fight for what is rightfully theirs.  WE SHOULDN'T TAKE CUTS WHEN WE'RE THE ONES MAKING THE COMPANY ITS MONEY.   

…And to DesertEMT…  tell me again why you think 1,800 dissatisfied employees is no big deal.  To me it seems like you're just making inflammatory statements at this point because you have nothing productive to add to this discussion.


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## DesertMedic66 (Nov 11, 2013)

TheLocalMedic said:


> The 30% number being kicked around is not accurate.  We are asking for cost of living increases to make up for wage freezes over the last several years, and yes, when negotiating the idea is to "ask for the moon" so you can settle on a fair increase in the end.  But we never asked for 30%.  That's just silly.
> 
> I know that AMR employees in other areas aren't making a livable wage, but that shouldn't create a divide between them and their united brothers.  Instead they should be inspired by seeing how a union can stand up for employees to help them make a fair wage with benefits for the work they do.  In an era of increasing executive salaries and companies being owned by huge investment firms, it is more important than ever that employees band together to fight for what is rightfully theirs.  WE SHOULDN'T TAKE CUTS WHEN WE'RE THE ONES MAKING THE COMPANY ITS MONEY.
> 
> …And to DesertEMT…  tell me again why you think 1,800 dissatisfied employees is no big deal.  To me it seems like you're just making inflammatory statements at this point because you have nothing productive to add to this discussion.



Simply stating the fact that 1,800 between that many counties is not a huge number. In CA I can throw a rock and hit 3 EMTs and probably a couple of medics. 

I don't have an opinion on if I agree or disagree with the strike. If you guys want to go on strike, then go for it. Don't be mad at the people coming in to take over for you guys since you won't be able to do the job (we have new hires who haven't had orientation on stand-by to go up there). 

There are always people who will cross the line without a second thought. It's a shame that those who might go on strike are threatening those who will go in to cover (not saying you. Just look at most of the comments on FB). It's sad. 

With the recent strike that happened in the imperial valley a lot of employees learned that going on strike sometimes can do nothing but get you fired. 

So now back to my statement of 1,800 isn't a lot of people, the college I teach for produces ~70-80 students per semester who are eagerly wanting to get employed. That is just one college in SoCal. 

If the strike occurs and AMR doesn't meet the requirements that they agreed on with the counties then AMR will lose their contracts (meaning your job goes bye bye). So the "scabs" who possibly might go up there will help AMR keep their contract (help you to keep your job by letting AMR stay in the area).

Ooh and just to be my normal self you might want to watch your tone about trying to "call members out" before you get this thread closed by the Mods.


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## TheLocalMedic (Nov 11, 2013)

DesertEMT66 said:


> Don't be mad at the people coming in to take over for you guys since you won't be able to do the job (we have new hires who haven't had orientation on stand-by to go up there).
> 
> ...
> 
> If the strike occurs and AMR doesn't meet the requirements that they agreed on with the counties then AMR will lose their contracts (meaning your job goes bye bye). So the "scabs" who possibly might go up there will help AMR keep their contract (help you to keep your job by letting AMR stay in the area).



Right there I have a problem with AMR's plan.  They are hiring brand new, no-experience EMTs and medics to cover.  I have also heard they are asking people that were turned down for jobs to come work if there is a strike.  Does that seem safe to you?  Asking newbies and those who weren't deemed good enough in the first place to come and go to work?  

Granted, I know that they have to have some kind of contingency plan, but the one they're coming up with is terrible.  The scabs aren't going to "help keep your jobs", and I have no love for anyone who would cross a picket line thereby hurting the people in their same profession who are only looking to advance themselves by standing up for what we deserve.


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## DesertMedic66 (Nov 11, 2013)

TheLocalMedic said:


> Right there I have a problem with AMR's plan.  They are hiring brand new, no-experience EMTs and medics to cover.  I have also heard they are asking people that were turned down for jobs to come work if there is a strike.  Does that seem safe to you?  Asking newbies and those who weren't deemed good enough in the first place to come and go to work?
> 
> Granted, I know that they have to have some kind of contingency plan, but the one they're coming up with is terrible.  The scabs aren't going to "help keep your jobs", and I have no love for anyone who would cross a picket line thereby hurting the people in their same profession who are only looking to advance themselves by standing up for what we deserve.



AMR has a lot of experience covering operations for strikes. Not everyone they plan on sending up there are brand new. Some are present employees and others have work experience with other companies. 

What seems safer, sending up new medics and EMTs or not having ambulance coverage for the area? The later of the 2 seems less safe. 

It seems like you're trying to make a blanket statement by implying that EMTs and Medics with no experience are sub-standard care providers. I didn't think I would have to say that there are many EMTs and Medics who have been working for many years who are sub-standard.


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## Norca (Nov 14, 2013)

*1,800 employees....*

I disagree that 1,800 employees "isn't a lot". It's a hell of a lot. If we estimate 18,000 employees of AMR, that's 10%. I could be wrong on the numbers but that's a hell of a lot of people any way you cut it. This level solidarity is unheard of and shows the grave nature of what we are up against.

*The more important message* is that 1,800 separate people are all on the same page, and believe the same thing-- that what is happening is bad for them, their families, and the future of their profession--and even for those who would cross the picket line. 

They are so sure of that that they are willing to put their jobs, their lively hoods on the line, to defend it. In fact, they are also defending those that may be next down the line to get cuts. How many of you reading this could afford a 30% pay cut? That's just what the south and east bay suffered only a year and a half ago.


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## TheLocalMedic (Nov 14, 2013)

DesertEMT66 said:


> It seems like you're trying to make a blanket statement by implying that EMTs and Medics with no experience are sub-standard care providers.



Let's not mince words.  EMTs and paramedics without 911 experience ARE NOT acceptable substitutes for existing providers.  And to argue that they aren't any different perhaps merely demonstrates a lack of experience on your part.  Would you want a brand new, inexperienced provider caring for you or your family in an area they are unfamiliar with?  I know I wouldn't.  

Bringing in current employees as scabs is one matter, but asking wet-behind-the-ears new graduates or reject applicants to staff an area during a strike is a different matter.  In my opinion AMR's contingency plan is patently reckless, irresponsible and UNSAFE!


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## DesertMedic66 (Nov 14, 2013)

TheLocalMedic said:


> Let's not mince words.  EMTs and paramedics without 911 experience ARE NOT acceptable substitutes for existing providers.  And to argue that they aren't any different perhaps merely demonstrates a lack of experience on your part.  Would you want a brand new, inexperienced provider caring for you or your family in an area they are unfamiliar with?  I know I wouldn't.
> 
> Bringing in current employees as scabs is one matter, but asking wet-behind-the-ears new graduates or reject applicants to staff an area during a strike is a different matter.  In my opinion AMR's contingency plan is patently reckless, irresponsible and UNSAFE!



How do you know for sure the people on stand by have zero 911 experience? I honestly don't care if they are brand new and inexperienced as long as they are competent. 

You don't have any idea on the people we might possibly send up there nor do I. We really can't make statements about the employees because we do not know. 

Pretty sure treating patients is the same no matter where you go (as I found out in New York). In this day and age using the excuse of "well it's a different area" has no truth to the statement it's unsafe. Driving code 3 is all the same anywhere (dangerous). GPS is a lot more accurate. MapBooks don't take a rocket scientist to read and understand.

Please go on Facebook and read the comments on the EMS pages. Experience has nothing to do with how competent a medic/EMT is. "I've been a medic for 25+ years and I give every patient O2 because it's not going to hurt only help them" is one of the many that made me do a facepalm.


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## 9D4 (Nov 14, 2013)

TheLocalMedic said:


> Let's not mince words.  EMTs and paramedics without 911 experience ARE NOT acceptable substitutes for existing providers.  And to argue that they aren't any different perhaps merely demonstrates a lack of experience on your part.  Would you want a brand new, inexperienced provider caring for you or your family in an area they are unfamiliar with?  I know I wouldn't.
> 
> Bringing in current employees as scabs is one matter, but asking wet-behind-the-ears new graduates or reject applicants to staff an area during a strike is a different matter.  In my opinion AMR's contingency plan is patently reckless, irresponsible and UNSAFE!


Guess what, man? You were in that spot before. They passed that exact same test as you and got that exact same patch. 
It's not like the world will end if some guy somehow got lucky enough to get a 911 gig for his first radio. 
Secondly, plenty of people get passed over on jobs. I'm sure at one point even yourself did, do you not consider yourself competent any longer? You wanna take a shot at what hiring is for? To fill open spots. Do tons of places not hire like that? Take one, doesn't work out, move on to the next. 
At the time, everyone they interviewed could've been competent, they just didn't have room for them in the company. As far as AMR is concerned, they now have 1,800 more open jobs to fill.


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## SandpitMedic (Nov 14, 2013)

Fruitless debates, the lot of them you are having. I see a lot of degenerative and argumentative points being brought up that do nothing to progress or display that "striving" nature to "better out profession" so many of you dream of. It sounds like the kool-aid is strong in this room. 

I can identify with the fact of what you guys are trying to accomplish. I truly can, but is irrelevant in the big picture. You're talking about a multi billion dollar grossing company- they do not give two :censored::censored::censored::censored:s about you guys. Truly they don't. And they will not. Not now, not ever! The potential strike to AMR is a drop in the hat... And it's like shooting a BB gun at a freight train. Does that mean you should bend over and take it.... Not necessarily. But where are the suggestions to be progressive, where are the industry changing ideas to correct the problems, where are the new minds to come up with alternatives to still make the company profitable and efficient while still paying that "living wage?" Oh wait... The company isn't listening! Why not write an editorial in the local paper anonymously? Why not put up posters to inform the public that their caretakers and emergency responders are being hustled and abused by corporate America? It is a good time to gain public support while everyone still despises those CEOs. Is it not? I'm talking about the voting public, not the welfare recipients with LED TVs that we frequently take to the ER for toe pain, anxiety, and pain Rx refills.

 Someone stated its a problem for privates only caring about the bottom dollar while being the 911 provider for sick and not-so-sick patients. Spot the :censored::censored::censored::censored: on... 100% accurate. However, that is an issue that will have to iron itself out; nothing you do will change that. Municipalities and local governments are the ones who will fix that in time, or maybe they won't. 

It's a losing battle. I'm a "12 year old kid" because I realize that this isn't a career or because our education standards meet that of a hot dog on a stick or Starbucks employee? Am I not angry??? I am pissed off! I am so angry that I risk my life and health and safety daily for freaking pennies on the dollar while I actually transport these patients while the firemen show up take a set of vitals, hand off care, and go back to their lazy boy whilst they make 70, 80, 90, 100+ thousand a year with their big boats and nice standard of living.... Does that make me bitter? Does it make me hate my corporation? Kind of... I'd say it makes me 10% angry, but it also makes me 90% MOTIVATED to do what I need to do to better myself, enhance my KSAs, excel my education, and upgrade to a better paying position/career. I don't envy the firemen or loath my corporation; that is the way out field is. And we won't ever change it alone without public support. Corporations have always been about the bottom dollar... Wall Street wasn't built on customer service and treating employees right- I amend that statement to MOST of Wall Street. Main Street maybe, but that's not how America works anymore, thank you free market capitalism. (On an aside, I am not suggesting publicly bashing firemen or any other career as a means of a gainful strategy.)

I'm your brother? Sure, because we share the same professions and are the few who truly understand each others' work and how it affects our personal lives and relationships and finances. I may be a brother, but I am not naive enough to believe that by letting you strike you're going to change anything _significantly_. I've said it before in this thread in post 87:  almost no one wants to be the 22 year private EMS vet hobbling around the ready room with a bad back, busted knees, and bitter persona mumbling to themselves because they beat their bodies to death for 22 years to finally get paid what they should have got paid 20 years in their past. This isn't a career- I'm a kid for thinking along those lines. It's a factual observation of an EMS scene size up. There are a multitude of factors for the way we are paid, perceived, and placated.

This is the issue at hand. Scabs and scalawags be damned... Who cares?! Am I offended that I may be called a scab- not at all. Asinine arguments you guys are having. There will always be someone who will come in and take your job for a cheaper wage... Always. The issue is elementary, and I don't have the ultimate answer on how to change it because frankly I don't think the industry can be changed significantly while private entities own EMS provider services. 

It just is what it is. We're a people with personalities that yearn for something to save, something to fix. Unfortunately, private EMS will never be fixed from within. "Resistance is futile!" Better yourself, and move along instead of trying to better a corporation who views you as expendable while you waste your youth and energy.


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## Amberlamps916 (Nov 14, 2013)

SandpitMedic said:


> Fruitless debates, the lot of them you are having. I see a lot of degenerative and argumentative points being brought up that do nothing to progress or display that "striving" nature to "better out profession" so many of you dream of. It sounds like the kool-aid is strong in this room.
> 
> I can identify with the fact of what you guys are trying to accomplish. I truly can, but is irrelevant in the big picture. You're talking about a multi billion dollar grossing company- they do not give two :censored::censored::censored::censored:s about you guys. Truly they don't. And they will not. Not now, not ever! The potential strike to AMR is a drop in the hat... And it's like shooting a BB gun at a freight train. Does that mean you should bend over and take it.... Not necessarily. But where are the suggestions to be progressive, where are the industry changing ideas to correct the problems, where are the new minds to come up with alternatives to still make the company profitable and efficient while still paying that "living wage?" Oh wait... The company isn't listening! Why not write an editorial in the local paper anonymously? Why not put up posters to inform the public that their caretakers and emergency responders are being hustled and abused by corporate America? It is a good time to gain public support while everyone still despises those CEOs. Is it not? I'm talking about the voting public, not the welfare recipients with LED TVs that we frequently take to the ER for toe pain, anxiety, and pain Rx refills.
> 
> ...



I couldn't have said it better myself.....about to finish internship and move on up to $14.11 an hour. PA school can't come soon enough.


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## Rano Pano (Nov 14, 2013)

SandpitMedic said:


> Fruitless debates, the lot of them you are having. I see a lot of degenerative and argumentative points being brought up that do nothing to progress or display that "striving" nature to "better out profession" so many of you dream of. It sounds like the kool-aid is strong in this room.
> 
> I can identify with the fact of what you guys are trying to accomplish. I truly can, but is irrelevant in the big picture. You're talking about a multi billion dollar grossing company- they do not give two :censored::censored::censored::censored:s about you guys. Truly they don't. And they will not. Not now, not ever! The potential strike to AMR is a drop in the hat... And it's like shooting a BB gun at a freight train. Does that mean you should bend over and take it.... Not necessarily. But where are the suggestions to be progressive, where are the industry changing ideas to correct the problems, where are the new minds to come up with alternatives to still make the company profitable and efficient while still paying that "living wage?" Oh wait... The company isn't listening! Why not write an editorial in the local paper anonymously? Why not put up posters to inform the public that their caretakers and emergency responders are being hustled and abused by corporate America? It is a good time to gain public support while everyone still despises those CEOs. Is it not? I'm talking about the voting public, not the welfare recipients with LED TVs that we frequently take to the ER for toe pain, anxiety, and pain Rx refills.
> 
> ...



Did anyone read this, and learn something new about the profession? I know I didn't, and wondered what the point of posting it was.

You didn't say anything that anybody with more than a week in the profession wouldn't know. 

Private EMS pay is horrible - Correct

A EMT isn't a career - Correct

Striking is most likely a losing battle, and the public's support would be great - Correct 

You see these things - accept it - and come here to rant how you're bettering yourself without waiting on changes in the company. My problem isn't the game plan. The majority of EMT's/Medic's are working to get out of their current positions - myself included. My problem is the rant part. You're nothing special. You, and I both are taking the road more traveled. Then what's my point? Don't come here posting a bunch of rhetoric about private EMS when there's a group of individuals willing to take a risk. We all know how this normally goes, but they've had enough, and are fighting for some sort of change.  My hats off to them for that.

Ps - That's why I think you sound like a kid. Kids have a habit of stating information everyone already knows in a attempt to cover up the fact they have nothing new to add.


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## DesertMedic66 (Nov 14, 2013)

Rano Pano said:


> Did anyone read this, and learn something new about the profession? I know I didn't, and wondered what the point of posting it was.
> 
> You didn't say anything that anybody with more than a week in the profession wouldn't know.
> 
> ...



You may know all of the information that was already stated but it doesn't mean everyone does.

To your statement that I made bold, you may want to review the Forum rules:


> While we promote debating and discussion, we will not tolerate rudeness, defamatory or insulting posts, personal attacks or purposeless inflammatory posts. Our decision in these matters will be final. As a reminder, violations of this rule will result in one of the following: Warning, 15 day ban, 30 day ban, 90 day ban, 365 day ban, or a permanent ban.


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## Rano Pano (Nov 14, 2013)

DesertEMT66 said:


> You may know all of the information that was already stated but it doesn't mean everyone does.
> 
> To your statement that I made bold, you may want to review the Forum rules:



My very first sentence was genuine.

As for my last part violating forum rules, yeah. It probably does, but it was in response to one very large rude post. Does it cancel it out? Let me know...


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## DesertMedic66 (Nov 14, 2013)

Rano Pano said:


> My very first sentence was genuine.
> 
> As for my last part violating forum rules, yeah. It probably does, but it was in response to one very large rude post. Does it cancel it out? Let me know...



I didn't find his post to be rude at all. It was a very large post but not rude.


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## SandpitMedic (Nov 14, 2013)

I think I struck a nerve. I do apologize if you perceived my post as rude; perhaps you also know that is best for one in our profession to have thicker skin. Especially, with each other. Generally, I find that those who "know it all" know everything except how annoying they are.

Enjoy the rest of your day sir.


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## NomadicMedic (Nov 14, 2013)

Hey all... Stay civil and on topic. Please don't make me say it again.


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## TransportJockey (Nov 14, 2013)

DEmedic said:


> Hey all... Stay civil and on topic. Please don't make me say it again.


There, I made you say it again


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## Rano Pano (Nov 14, 2013)

SandpitMedic said:


> I think I struck a nerve. I do apologize if you perceived my post as rude; perhaps you also know that is best for one in our profession to have thicker skin. Especially, with each other. Generally, I find that those who "know it all" know everything except how annoying they are.
> 
> Enjoy the rest of your day sir.



I don't think I personally could of replied back to your statements any nicer. I tend to go directly at the heart of what I'm trying to convey. I want to make a point, and hopefully be responded back with one. I don't dance around searching for passive aggressive "zings", or play dumb about what I write. We may be a little different this way. I thought it unfair for you to call out a group for doing things different then how you think they should be done. That's why I posted. I don't think we are going to see eye to eye on this, and for not wanting to be responsible for getting a good thread closed I'm fine with leaving this as is.

To each his own.

You have a good day as well.


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## triemal04 (Nov 15, 2013)

Placermedic, TheLocalMedic, rebeltech, fire87I2 and anyone else who's working in the affected area...

Keep your heads up and try not to let the disgraceful way you are being treated by other so-called "professionals" get to you.  There are plenty of people in EMS, union and non-union alike that understand why you are doing this, and what it means to your members.  There are plenty of people who understand that nobody wanted it to come to this point or is taking the possibility of a strike lightly. 

Remember that there are plenty of people who understand how much time, effort, money and sacrifice has gone into organizing a union and then forcing AMR to negotiate a fair contract.  There are plenty of people who understand what it takes to get the benefits that you have, and how hard it can be to keep them at the same level, let alone prevent any decreases.

It is sad that the most vocal people are ones that don't understand this, and will look at a group that has improved their situation as one that should be hated and spat upon instead of one that should be looked to for inspiration and possibly emulation.  It is highly unfortunate that this field draws so many people to it who look at anyone who holds a better position as someone worthy of contempt and are only capable of taking a very narrow view of a given situation

It is sad that the most vocal people, by their own admission don't know what is happening, or even how they will be used, reimbursed or treated by the parent company if they are used as replacements for your local but are ready to go to because it is in their own interest.

I'll keep my fingers crossed that you can negotiate a fair contract without striking.


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## TheLocalMedic (Nov 15, 2013)

triemal04 said:


> Placermedic, TheLocalMedic, rebeltech, fire87I2 and anyone else who's working in the affected area...
> 
> Keep your heads up and try not to let the disgraceful way you are being treated by other so-called "professionals" get to you.  There are plenty of people in EMS, union and non-union alike that understand why you are doing this, and what it means to your members.  There are plenty of people who understand that nobody wanted it to come to this point or is taking the possibility of a strike lightly.
> 
> ...



Well said, and greatly appreciated sentiments.  

Our ultimate goal throughout this whole process is to advance our profession while putting our patients ahead of profits.  In many ways the "you get what you pay for" aphorism holds true in regards to paying a workforce.  I don't necessarily believe that EMS cannot be a career.  However, if you want to build and keep a skilled and dedicated workforce you need to provide them with the incentive to stay.  

Although the fight isn't easy, and the corporation has a lot of resources on its side, we should not just roll over and accept lower wages.  We must continue to strive to be paid fairly for what we do, or we will continue to lose good, dedicated people to other careers in fire and other branches of medicine.  Imagine a system where EMS had both the pay and respect that fire and law enforcement does.  Isn't that something we should strive towards rather than heaping scorn on those who look forward to a better, more equitable future.  

And @ DesertEMT66, just because a person disagrees with your position doesn't make them "rude".  I recall calling you out on making several of your own inflammatory statements.  Part of holding a discourse means hearing opinions that you disagree with.  But your vocal disagreement doesn't invalidate their point of view, nor does arbitrary name calling validate your own.


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## DesertMedic66 (Nov 15, 2013)

TheLocalMedic said:


> Well said, and greatly appreciated sentiments.
> 
> Our ultimate goal throughout this whole process is to advance our profession while putting our patients ahead of profits.  In many ways the "you get what you pay for" aphorism holds true in regards to paying a workforce.  I don't necessarily believe that EMS cannot be a career.  However, if you want to build and keep a skilled and dedicated workforce you need to provide them with the incentive to stay.
> 
> ...



My rude statement was not because someone disagreed with me. I quoted the forum rules about an actual rude post (calling someone a child or a kid is in fact rude regardless if I agree with it or disagree).

The mods asked us to drop it or the thread will be closed. If you would like to go on please feel free to shoot me a PM.


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## SandpitMedic (Nov 17, 2013)

I wanted to think a little before responding to your "zingers" and what not...

Listen, I am not in the camp of purposely trying to undermine any ones efforts to better our profession and the way it is perceived. Upon evaluating my initial statements I can see how one could come to that conclusion based on some of the context. EMS with all of its intricacies is very dynamic and it is near impossible to point the finger at one sole thing we could do to enhance the profession. As stated, there are a multitude of reasons why we are where we are, why we are perceived the way we are, and why we are treated the way we are. One could bring up pay, hours, benefits, equipment, etc. They all play a part in our situation.

Certainly, I am not bashing you for all of the work you guys have done to get your piece of the pie tasting sweeter than mine, nor for trying to keep it that way. My comments about EMS in its current state (_in agencies I have worked for_) being more or less a dead end gig are solely my opinion. I feel like with standards such as ours that each of us should want to strive to be something better; I believe that instead of trying to take down the Goliath that is corporate America/greed your time would better be spent improving upon yourself. Obtain a higher education, gain some life experience and obtain a better career. If your dream is to stay in private EMS forever then do the same self building and become someone with the credentials to lead and someone that can think of other ways to get your goals accomplished. A gang of employees is not going to change the mind of a CEO with a team of analysts, legal folks, and an endless financial stream. I can respect that if you cannot clearly see that or are naive enough to believe you can then I will not call you a child, rather tell you good luck and suggest other means as I have. I'll also tell you that getting terminated from the largest EMS company in the nation will greatly hinder future employment opportunities in EMS/fire/PD/gov careers so tread lightly. My opinion, along with others on this board differ from yours greatly apparently. 

Hardy harhar @ "passive aggressive zings." Lol! Really now, my comment was to address that you are clearly on a war path to get what you want "for EMS," yet you seem rather narrow sighted in your efforts. As stated, it is a very complicated dynamic and combined with the "enemy" you face you just don't seem to get it. Perhaps it is I who doesn't get it... However, seeing how most of this board has been singing along with me I think I'm on the right track. Don't think I hate my job either, I do not; I am just motivated to get where I'm going rather than fighting a losing battle or by using the same means as you. "Never engage the same enemy for too long, or he will adapt to your tactics" -von Clausewitz. 

EMS is what it is... life is also what it is. It isn't the 1920s any longer. Money rules the world, and Unions are big business money making machines these days... Your **insert corporation here** will get its way or they will find someone other than you who will do the job...your "scabs." Is that an ugly picture? Am I a pessimist? Perhaps...or perhaps I just see things in a different light, perhaps I've seen this battle lost 20 times before. I believe that's just me being a realist and on my own team to accomplish my own goals while trying to sway you better yourself as well. 

Jeeze, I've just kind of been rambling..I sure hope that I haven't regurgitated ideas that "everyone" already knows or not brought any "new ideas" or vantage points to the table. MY previous post was to try to get my point across about the big picture, hopefully you see my point without being offended this time- and those in your camp. If you don't like my opinions well...  Only Judy can judge me, bro. 


A pessimist will tell you that the glass is half empty.
An optimist will tell you that the glass is half full.
A paramedic will tell you that the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

It is what it is gentleman and ladies. It is what you make it to be at the same time. Enjoy it, grow, learn, live... but don't sell yourself short in believing you can change the world alone instead of adapting to be successful. Our generation (I'm 26) has a very "I deserve it all" entitled mentality where every one gets a trophy and ice cream just for showing up to the game... I'm here to tell you that life is much more demanding than just that. Our line of work is no different. I do agree with your points... I want more too, but I'm not going to get it on a private. Go forth and conquer.


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## Norca (Nov 17, 2013)

*Let's better everyone*



SandpitMedic said:


> I wanted to think a little before responding to your "zingers" and what not...
> 
> Listen, I am not in the camp of purposely trying to undermine any ones efforts to better our profession and the way it is perceived. Upon evaluating my initial statements I can see how one could come to that conclusion based on some of the context. EMS with all of its intricacies is very dynamic and it is near impossible to point the finger at one sole thing we could do to enhance the profession. As stated, there are a multitude of reasons why we are where we are, why we are perceived the way we are, and why we are treated the way we are. One could bring up pay, hours, benefits, equipment, etc. They all play a part in our situation.
> 
> ...



I, for one, appreciate your comments and taking the time to express your opinion, which I value along with everyone else. 

You arguments are valid, although I would like to add other opposing arguments can be valid too. I understand your position that it is useless to fight a juggernaut, and I somewhat agree with you. My problem is when you advocate we all should seek greener pastures and not fight. Many of your statements have some flavor of a military background; forgive me if I am wrong, but let me ask this:

Who will stand and fight? While others bail, there must be those that stand their ground, even against a larger enemy. Especially against a larger enemy. Is the point to win? Yes, but is it also important to make a statement, to say enough is enough, to inspire others. History is rife with these "failed" battles.  It's what gives others faith, hope, and strength to do the right thing, sometimes at their own expense.  

You mentioned you are 26; and that your generation feels entitled. When you bail you become part of that group. I am 44 and have reached the point where it's time to stand and fight. It's a long battle but age gives you the patience to stay and try to make it right, even for those that choose not to fight  

If not us, who? If not now, when?


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## Rano Pano (Nov 17, 2013)

*Good Post*

SandpitMedic,

I read through your post once, and skimmed a second time to see if there was something I had missed.

 I agree with ALL the points you made. I'm the same age, and have the same views on EMS. I'm not in anyway affiliated with the strike other than turning down the offer to go up.

 I don't have a problem with a scab if they genuinely thought about it, and decided to do it. I've read multiple posts here about going up (including yours) that I didn't feel the need to respond too. I jumped all over your particular post because how it was said. That post had a lot of the same points, but I felt it was belittling those who are going on strike. Part of why I think it's important to support the North is because they're striking despite the points you've made. I've never done it to the extent of my job, and nor do I know if I would, but haven't you ever been so fed up a situation you'd rather try to change it, and most likely lose than just stand pat? By no means on the same level as these guys, but I have, and it's why I hope this ends with some sort of positive for them. I don't know where you're located, but I 100% believe this type of debate will come to SoCal eventually.

I've debated posting this because I know it's not as well written as it could be, and you already stated undermining NorCal wasn't your intent. I'm posting it to possibly clarify what my role in the strike is, and why I took offense in the first place.


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## SandpitMedic (Nov 17, 2013)

Norca,

I completely agree with the sentiment that opposing opinions and arguments can be valid. I am also aware that some are so vested in the fight that must stay in it. Your agreement with me about it being fruitless to battle a juggernaut hints that you are fighting for your pride- to not just "lay there and take it" rather than because you believe you can actually win. I could be completely wrong, and I do not mean that as an insult. It might be salt in the wound, yet it was read that way. 

If not you, I don't know... Not me. I feel just going to work, adding onto my resume, gaining experience, and looking forward to where I'm going with a few alternate "just in case" plans while helping some folks in need along the way. Saving lives and kissing babies 24/7 you know? I don't feel like I'm bailing on your agenda, but rather I'm working on mine.
If not now.... Well... Its been fought over time and time again throughout the nation. I don't feel entitled to anything. I will work hard to get what I want. 

As I said, I do get fed up with the BS... I get so mad sometimes thinking about how much better it could be for all of us... including how it could be if we were rid of the idiot type of people in our industry such as those who post photos posing with dead animals in the back of their rig.... (cross thread points?) So many things that would make us better as an industry. I often day dream of the latest LED big TV and PS4 and trips to Costa Rica and the Caribbean cruises I could take and not living paycheck to paycheck eating top ramen if I got paid more. JEEZEEEEEEE!!! ARHGHGHGGH! Then I focus on getting to the position in which those things will no longer be just a dream but effortlessly obtainable. Anyone can go back to school, can bridge to another career. I realize some of those are too far in, late in the game, at a ripe age in which their dog is stuck in the fight. And I mean not to insult them... just voice my idea to those who aren't yet in that position. 

 This is not a CA specific debacle... I'm not in SoCal... this is an indusrty wide issue in the US of A. 

I value your positions, yet I feel like we have not necessarily opposing mindsets, just different agendas.


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## TheLocalMedic (Nov 17, 2013)

I don't believe the people who are standing up for themselves (and it's not a smattering of individuals, it's an entire region) are "too deep" or have too much invested not to fight.  Many are younger or are new to EMS, and many have second and third jobs.  These people are united in fighting to advance the profession by saying "NO" when AMR proposes to cut our pay to show an increasing profit margin.  To get a little corny, we're fighting for what is right.  

AMR isn't the unstoppable "juggernaut" some have made it out to be, and it certainly isn't our intention or in our interest to tear the company down.  We want them to come to the table to negotiate in good faith with the workforce.  That isn't an impossible goal.  Nor would a strike be unfelt by the corporation at large.  A strike isn't a pesky mosquito bite, no matter how large the company.  

Proposing that we just accept the fact that EMS can't be a career is defeatist logic.  Why shouldn't we try to make a positive change?  The best thing we can do is not focus on where we are, but rather where we are headed.

SandpitMedic, while you may not share your generation's attitude of entitlement, to quote Ron White, "That boy's got a lot of quit in him".  Remember what they say about when the going gets tough?  I don't see you as being one of the tough who get going.


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## DrankTheKoolaid (Nov 17, 2013)

Not really sure anyone said "EMS" can't be a career as it is a lifelong career for many including myself.  Being an "EMT, as in basic EMT" is not meant to be a career.


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## SandpitMedic (Nov 17, 2013)

DrankTheKoolaid said:


> Being an "EMT, as in basic EMT" is not meant to be a career.



To clarify, this. Oh, and _places_ where they pay medics $12/hr.


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## triemal04 (Nov 18, 2013)

SandpitMedic said:


> Our generation (I'm 26) has a very "I deserve it all" entitled mentality where every one gets a trophy and ice cream just for showing up to the game...


I think you got that very right.  The gist of all your posts in this thread seems to be "I deserve it all...and don't want to work for it.  So I'll change jobs and/or careers until I get somewhere where everything is given to me."

Thankfully, there are people out there who are willing to work to improve their situation, even if it means they have to sacrifice, because it will eventually pay off for both them, and those who follow.


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## SandpitMedic (Nov 18, 2013)

triemal04 said:


> I think you got that very right.  The gist of all your posts in this thread seems to be "I deserve it all...and don't want to work for it.  So I'll change jobs and/or careers until I get somewhere where everything is given to me."
> 
> Thankfully, there are people out there who are willing to work to improve their situation, even if it means they have to sacrifice, because it will eventually pay off for both them, and those who follow.



Um....
Wow. Jesus.

Yes I don't want to work for anything and have everything handed to me. If doing that via going to school, getting a degree, and seeking higher paying employment with a real retirement is having everything handed to me, then yes Sir. You completely read between the lines of my posts.


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## ms93 (Nov 27, 2013)

Any updates with the potential strike? Has anyone actually been sent out there to cover? AMR management and union leaders in negotiations?


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## Rano Pano (Nov 29, 2013)

I can't call it a reliable source, but I heard there was an agreement reached between both sides.


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## TheLocalMedic (Nov 30, 2013)

It's a work in progress.  We'll see what the financials say.


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## ms93 (Dec 2, 2013)

TheLocalMedic said:


> It's a work in progress.  We'll see what the financials say.



Glad to hear that. Please keep us updated.


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## Norca (Dec 9, 2013)

*Closings*

Marin ops closing dec 13. 30+- employees laid off, medics, emts, cct. Entire operation closing down.
Merry Christmas.


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## DesertMedic66 (Dec 9, 2013)

Norca said:


> Marin ops closing dec 13. 30+- employees laid off, medics, emts, cct. Entire operation closing down.
> Merry Christmas.



Is this an AMR division or another company?


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## Norca (Dec 9, 2013)

*Closing shop*



DesertEMT66 said:


> Is this an AMR division or another company?



Amr.


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## DesertMedic66 (Dec 9, 2013)

Norca said:


> Amr.



Ouch, sorry to hear that


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## TheLocalMedic (Dec 10, 2013)

Norca said:


> Marin ops closing dec 13. 30+- employees laid off, medics, emts, cct. Entire operation closing down.
> Merry Christmas.



Are they able to transfer at all?


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