# Hats off to volunteers



## FFMedic1911 (Oct 9, 2008)

When I started reading this board I had never heard of volunteer ems.I am from Eastern Ky where there are some of the pooriest areas in the country and all of our services are paid.So it really surprises me that an area can't afford paid staff.So I would like to say hats off to you guys and gals that do this for free.You deserve respect.


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## KEVD18 (Oct 9, 2008)

a vast majority of volunteers deserve all the respect and admiration that can be sent their way.

the problem come from the one that don't deserve it. there are people out there that treat ems as a game. they figure they can get lights and a siren and go screwing around town. they don't actually care about the medicine. they don't do anything to further their education. they don't learn extra skills . they do the bare minimum to get the "glory" and proceed to treat this like a game. that's what offends the career guys. the career guys are the ones that are always striving to be better. the ones that have accepted that ems isn't a game, but a career that requires discipline, education, commitment.

lots of vollie departments aren't run like professional organizations. they are run like a club where, if you show up to a few meetings, you get indoc'd into the club. three or four hundred stickers on the vehicle; a light in every place and a squad t shirt for every outfit.

i have nothing but respect for _professional_ vollies. i have nothing but contempt for unprofessional whackers.

[/off drunken soapbox]


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## MtJerry (Oct 9, 2008)

As a volunteer in a very rural part of Montana, I thank you.

I joined this site to learn from others and continue the educational process.  I have been a bit turned off at times by the bashing.

Thank was refreshing.  Again, thank you.


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## Hastings (Oct 9, 2008)

There are the good volunteer services that are part of an organized organization, that take it seriously, show up to scenes in a uniform of some sorts, that are properly trained...

Then there are the ones that put lights on their dirty pickup trucks and speed recklessly through lights, arriving on scene in dirty street clothes (granted, not clothes I'd even wear casually), smoking a cigarette, standing around talking to the others, making inappropriate comments and practicing redneck medicine.

Sadly, the second is the one a lot of people know.


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## daedalus (Oct 9, 2008)

You know, im not going to try and start a debate here, but I was browsing firehouse and saw something that really set me off. A guy posted a thread asking which O2 bag he should buy. He had just gotten his EMT card and wanted to volunteer at a local dept. He had also purchased a "BLS bag" (whats a BLS bag? medicine is medicine.) This bag contained, I swear, the most redundant list of supplies I had ever seen in my life. He wanted a O2 bottle and AED as well. 

This was a game to him. He obtained the minimum level of training required, and went out and must have spent 500 to a grand in medical supplies, and wanted to deck up his car and respond to scenes in it. Whats a single O2 tank going to do for you? What is the medical gas used for? He probably could not tell you. Someone had called him out on his "over doing it" and he started to get that typical attitude, we have all seen it before "I did not post here to be insulted so why dont you guys just lay off okay? If I want to have a BLS bag, than I will". It was the ignorance that bothered me the most. I was so defeated I wanted to shred my own EMT card. I am working hard in college to advance my education and become a real provider, and this knock job thinks he is a medical provider with his BLS bag and O2 and 110 hours of training. I will never live anywhere there is a "vollie" EMS system. I even hate the word "vollie". I will be a professional, educated, sharp, and paid paramedic committed to always bettering my knowledge base. Little can be said the same for "Vollies" who get a AHA card and a first aid cert and run around town with lights and sirens thinking they are making an ounce of difference in the outcomes for discharged patients. I venture to think patients might be discharged in better condition without EMT level care, and just being driven to the hospital.


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## daedalus (Oct 9, 2008)

Hastings said:


> There are the good volunteer services that are part of an organized organization, that take it seriously, show up to scenes in a uniform of some sorts, that are properly trained...
> 
> Then there are the ones that put lights on their dirty pickup trucks and speed recklessly through lights, arriving on scene in dirty street clothes (granted, not clothes I'd even wear casually), smoking a cigarette, standing around talking to the others, making inappropriate comments and practicing redneck medicine.
> 
> Sadly, the second is the one a lot of people know.



I think the former type of system is very rare. I do salute those who volunteer professionally, such as doctors without borders, or cadaver dog workers, etc.


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## Hastings (Oct 9, 2008)

daedalus said:


> I think the former type of system is very rare. I do salute those who volunteer professionally, such as doctors without borders, or cadaver dog workers, etc.



I'm lucky as to have a great volunteer system in my area, as I've described in the past. All are volunteering members of the hospital or city EMS agency, they have set hours, a uniform, paid by the call, proper medical supplies and vehicles, etc, etc.


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## TheAfterAffect (Oct 9, 2008)

daedalus said:


> You know, im not going to try and start a debate here, but I was browsing firehouse and saw something that really set me off. A guy posted a thread asking which O2 bag he should buy. He had just gotten his EMT card and wanted to volunteer at a local dept. He had also purchased a "BLS bag" (whats a BLS bag? medicine is medicine.) This bag contained, I swear, the most redundant list of supplies I had ever seen in my life. He wanted a O2 bottle and AED as well.
> 
> This was a game to him. He obtained the minimum level of training required, and went out and must have spent 500 to a grand in medical supplies, and wanted to deck up his car and respond to scenes in it. Whats a single O2 tank going to do for you? What is the medical gas used for? He probably could not tell you. Someone had called him out on his "over doing it" and he started to get that typical attitude, we have all seen it before "I did not post here to be insulted so why dont you guys just lay off okay? If I want to have a BLS bag, than I will". It was the ignorance that bothered me the most. I was so defeated I wanted to shred my own EMT card. I am working hard in college to advance my education and become a real provider, and this knock job thinks he is a medical provider with his BLS bag and O2 and 110 hours of training. I will never live anywhere there is a "vollie" EMS system. I even hate the word "vollie". I will be a professional, educated, sharp, and paid paramedic committed to always bettering my knowledge base. Little can be said the same for "Vollies" who get a AHA card and a first aid cert and run around town with lights and sirens thinking they are making an ounce of difference in the outcomes for discharged patients. I venture to think patients might be discharged in better condition without EMT level care, and just being driven to the hospital.




Alright, I understand your "anger" at some of these whackers that are out there and are just in it for a while. But hell, DO NOT group ALL Vollies in with them. I am a Vollie and a Paid EMT and I'm telling you straight up, all the Volunteer Agencies that I've been to, have friends at, And Seen work are a Thousand Times more professional then 80 Percent of the Paid Ambulance Companies in NJ. 

Granted you are entitled to your opinion, But please take SOME respect for Volunteers. Hell, You came onto a Thread directed at Volunteer EMS Agencies and essentially bashed them to hell. Maybe you should take a trip out to Jersey, I Know I would LOVE to show to you that your statements are completely and utterly simple and close minded. 

My squad will shatter your beliefs of what you think all Volunteer Agencies are like, as will alot of Vollie agencies. EVERYWHERE You go you will have whackers, Even paid agencies, EVEN PARAMEDICS. 

And just to further disprove your theory, Yes, Im a whacker. I have Blue Lights on my car, No I do not speed, Run Traffic Lights, Have a Siren, etc. I use them as an Identifier, If people move out of my way, I give them a wave, and continue on my way. As for the stickers, I have 3 on my car in total. My Old High Schools Logo, my DoD Military Base Access Stickers, and a NJ PBA Supporter one. Eventually ill throw my FD and EMS Squad up there, But im in no rush.

Yes, I have a "BLS Bag" In my car, Why? Because I am out driving a lot on the Highway traveling the state to attend different CAP functions (Civil Air Patrol, ANOTHER Volunteer Agency that is supported by the USAF that i am a part of). Every once in a while I do come upon car crashes that have just happened, or no Medical Providers are at yet. I pull over, and see what help I can offer. If the officer on scene says Im not needed, I continue on my way. No, I dont carry O2, but I see no problem in having it. Same with an AED, If cops carry them in their cars why can't I? Its just precautionary, Im not going to go speeding around town, answering everything on my scanner and strapping them up to the AED.

As for being a "Sharp, professional, Paid Paramedic", You are essentially saying all Volunteers are Unprofessional and vagabonds. I am sharp, I conduct myself in a very professional manner that has been taught to me through my parents and my life, that just carries over into my job. I present myself as a knowledgeable person, But I do not question the activities of others without there being a good reason. 

I can not comprehend your reason for hating us Vollies. Were you denied at your local Volunteer Agency? When you were a child did the Volunteers not answer a call that you thought was very important (Though they were probably at an equally important call unbeknown to you.)? 

You can PM me if you wish, as A flame war is not needed here. But I take what you said to heart and want to understand why your avidly degrading EMS as a whole by talking bad about your brethren.


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## daedalus (Oct 9, 2008)

No PM is need, AfterAffect. I admire what you do. However, I need to support the family I am planning on having soon. I cannot do that making 12 bucks an hour as a paramedic. Professionals charge for their services, and those who do not lower the bar for everybody else. 

I did not bash your department, I bashed a post from another forum and an attitude I find prevalent in volunteers. I come to EMS being medicine oriented, from a family of doctors and nurses, and I look forward to each CCT call I go on so my nurse can explain new drips and patient conditions to me. I look forward to helping people using medicine, and I look forward to living comfortably while doing so.


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## daedalus (Oct 9, 2008)

I was not denied at my local vollie agency. There is not a vollie agency anywhere near me. AMR runs ALS ambulances and my fire department is an all hazard fully paid career department that has hundreds of applicants from all over california for each opening. Check out amrventura.com and ventura county fire department on google. I am a career EMT. I volunteer some of my time to the local public health department, however.


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## Flight-LP (Oct 9, 2008)

Professionalism not only involves a presentation and positive attitude, it also requires self respect and pride. If you do not respect yourself enough in this profession, then you truly cannot call yourself a professional. As Daedalus stated, professionals charge for their services. Hobbyists do it for free. The number one reason why pay in this industry is so low is because there will always be someone willing to do it for less, if not free. Many volunteers are blinded by traditionalism. Unfortunately with the changes of society and socialistic beliefs, tradition has fell to the wayside. Medicine cannot afford to become a tradition, it needs to stay fresh and everchanging to keep up with the advances of the world and society. The traditional "I am here for my community" volunteer will eventually fold, especially if the economy continues to tank. 

Honestly, I cannot understand why anyone gives their services away for free. If you are proficient at what you do and have pride in your work, why not earn some money doing it???

Volunteers have my admiration for their dedicated belief, but I do not and will not hold high respect for them as they taint the economic ability of our paid providers busting their tails trying to earn a living.

FFMedic1911 - You sir are my newest friend!!!! You have dispproved, first hand, the myth that poor rural environments cannot afford a decent EMS service (in most cases, Bossy is the only person I know of who has a remote justification). I and many others who argue this point with ignorant non-believers thank you!

"I am from Eastern Ky where there are some of the pooriest areas in the country and all of our services are paid.So it really surprises me that an area can't afford paid staff."


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## csly27 (Oct 9, 2008)

hmmmm, Not All volunteers are wack jobs, many are mabey but not all, Where I live there is not a volunteer ems per say, but we have cert. I volunteer with them and I love it. I have learned alot, met some great amazing people. It was through cert that I decided to enter ems. I am currently taking classes for my EMT-B and will be finished with that in jan. 
                                                                                                        After that I want to join the fire acadamy then off to paramedic school. So I am very new to to the ems world. I also think that volunteering is so important to be able to go out and help your community when they need it most. I know that it does not pay the bills, however for me it has beeen a great stepping stone to get me where I want to be. If only some  volunteers were not in it only for the glory it would be a the greatest ever. 

It is what it is I guess. I am also new to this site and so far I love it to be able to come here and get info and advice has been a great experience, so thanks to everyone that will listen to me ramble.


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## ffemt8978 (Oct 10, 2008)

Flight-LP said:


> (in most cases, Bossy is the only person I know of who has a remote justification). I and many others who argue this point with ignorant non-believers thank you!



Hey...I feel left out.  1500 legal residents covering 240 sq. miles, and an hour to a McDonalds or a hospital in any direction.  Nearest ALS is 30 minutes away if we're driving towards each other, and medevac is 35 minutes.   Do I qualify?


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## KEVD18 (Oct 10, 2008)

the standard anti vollie defamation league rhetoric at its best.

nauseating to say the least...


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## daedalus (Oct 10, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> the standard anti vollie defamation league rhetoric at its best.
> 
> nauseating to say the least...


how do you mean


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## Hal9000 (Oct 10, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> a vast majority of volunteers deserve all the respect and admiration that can be sent their way.
> 
> the problem come from the one that don't deserve it. there are people out there that treat ems as a game. they figure they can get lights and a siren and go screwing around town. they don't actually care about the medicine. they don't do anything to further their education. they don't learn extra skills . they do the bare minimum to get the "glory" and proceed to treat this like a game. that's what offends the career guys. the career guys are the ones that are always striving to be better. the ones that have accepted that ems isn't a game, but a career that requires discipline, education, commitment.
> 
> ...



I happen to volunteer on one service when I have time and am in the town.  A recent class of students has three that are brand new EMTs that should not treat ANYONE.  One of them is quite bad: I've caught him making up vitals, telling me that A-fib and 1st degree r intraventricular block are NSR, and many other things. One of the local CRNAs told me to be careful because he's a loose canon. I'm inclined to agree. I also found out that he used to do heroin and he's currently dating a girl who graduated from high school 3 years ago. He's 46, fat, bald, and he lives off of welfare and...his girlfriend. He claims that he was in Vietnam as a Navy Seal, but also that he was in the marines, and that he was an aircraft mechanic. To top it off, he sometimes goes on about how he's married (He's not.), how he had three years of premed (Don't think so; he's claimed that a Klonopin was a Percocet on an OD patient, even when I told him otherwise, and then told the nurse at the ED the same thing.), and how he has kids (He doesn't and can't.).  I'm concerned. He's lied to my face and I think he's a glory seeker. He's also tried to delay transports to smoke. Amazingly, the members on the particular service want to keep giving him chances.  He's done some things involving biohazard materials that I don't want to mention in a public forum, but that would _absolutely_ cause the service to be disbanded.  He's also tried to run lights and sirens through town for a lift assist with no injury. 

I'm young, but I don't trust the guy and I don't really know how to document what he's done wrong.  Oh, and I should mention that I just found out that he didn't actually even pass his NREMT exam.  So he's really just an observer.

Of course, he's not the worst of the three. h34r:  Their patient care is the worst thing, even though their personalities are bad, too.

Ok, enough whining from me.

Sorry, had to get that off my chest.


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## Ridryder911 (Oct 10, 2008)

Okay.. time to stop the Battle Hymn of Republic, brighten the lights. Let's get a real and clear look, okay? Let's quit patting ourselves on the back for doing such a great job. 

Sure, I know of some great volunteer squads. Yes, they are the best.. but most are either manned by off duty or directed by professional medics. In reality, is a vollie squad really a vollie squad if it is really just off duty medics, performing their job? 

Also, you can thank Volunteer EMS companies for restricting the growth of EMS and the education. The _Montana & Idaho studies_, and many other volunteer studies and special interest groups vollies continue to push to lower education requirements so that it is in their best interest, not the patients. 

Sure, not all are alike that. Yet, the group (the mass numbers) are the ones that continues (along with IAFC) want to restrict education requirements for EMS. 

So for those that do a job because there is NOBODY else, I thank you and honor you. For those that do it in a community that could have a Professional EMS, that could provide quick, professional service, I am not impressed and believe you are the demise of EMS. 

R/r 911


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## Hal9000 (Oct 10, 2008)

Forgive me for not mentioning this, too, but I know some excellent vollie services, some which happen to have people that are earning their money in the field (Usually commuting.) but still volunteering as EMTs because they want to help.  On the same service with the wankers, there is a career paramedic and a career respiratory therapist, both great friends of mine.  Unfortunately, the service can be a bit like a social club when certain people are around, which lowers its level of professionalism.  I've mentioned that volunteers should treat the job professionally, but some members counter that with "but then people won't volunteer." Having those members not volunteer would probably be better for the patient, really.

Ok, that was another rant, but there are MANY volunteers out there who volunteer out of the goodness of their hearts and want only to help people.

For the record, I have a now retired vest with some simple stuff in my car (4x4s, gauze, etc.) because, in Montana, I've been first on scene by accident before when the closest medical support of any kind was over 30 minutes away. Rural areas have it different.  (Marauding deer are actually not much of a problem.)


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## KEVD18 (Oct 10, 2008)

its the same argument on both sides over and over and over again.

"why give away what you can sell"
"just because i don't get paid doesn't mean I'm not professional"
"i need to carry a full ambulances worth of stuff so i can save the day at an accident scene"
"if you don't wear a pressed shirt and polished boot to every call, your a bad emt"
"i don't operate my vehicle improperly when i have my lights on"
etc etc etc etc etc

this argument never changes. obviously, there are some squared away volunteers. but they are in the minority. the nauseating part of the argument for me is the blind bs rhetoric spouted off by the obvious whackers.


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## Sasha (Oct 10, 2008)

Volunteer squads are not my favorite, as stated many times before here:

Paid EMS staff is going to be paid very poorly as long as there are people willing to do it for free.


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## daedalus (Oct 10, 2008)

Sasha said:


> Volunteer squads are not my favorite, as stated many times before here:
> 
> Paid EMS staff is going to be paid very poorly as long as there are people willing to do it for free.



+2

Its stated plenty of times, only because its so true


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## wxduff (Oct 10, 2008)

I don't get the Paid EMS is threatened by Volunteer argument. In my hometown, the nearest ambulance is 15-25 minutes away. So the paid guys don't feel there is a need to be so far out of the city. That's fine, but then don't :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: when the volunteer fire department adds an ambulance. If you really think that they are taking away your wages, then prove it and open a garage relatively close to where I live.

Doubt any paid EMS service will.

Volunteers are there to provide the services needed by my town's residents faster then any paid service. And volunteer EMT-B's have to pass the same course as Paid EMT-B's. The same...

Now if you have a Paid EMS department and a Volunteer service in the same city, then that's fine. They're taking customers. But please don't diss volunteer service in general, because they play an important part in many communities.


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## daedalus (Oct 10, 2008)

wxduff said:


> I don't get the Paid EMS is threatened by Volunteer argument. In my hometown, the nearest ambulance is 15-25 minutes away. So the paid guys don't feel there is a need to be so far out of the city. That's fine, but then don't :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: when the volunteer fire department adds an ambulance. If you really think that they are taking away your wages, then prove it and open a garage relatively close to where I live.
> 
> Doubt any paid EMS service will.
> 
> ...


I can tell your young in age and in this field. I welcome you warmly, but I also would like to take a minute to ask you to examine a few things.

Are you planning on becoming a EMS field provider?
Are you planning on advancing your education in EMS?
Are you passionate enough for it to stay in EMS for more than a few years?

You may ask what does this have to do with not "dissing" volunteer squads. Think about it, it will come. By the way, the nature of medicine and science in general is to question and "diss" everything until we find a better way. And than we keep doing it and find an even better way.


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## sixmaybemore (Oct 10, 2008)

> Honestly, I cannot understand why anyone gives their services away for free. If you are proficient at what you do and have pride in your work, why not earn some money doing it???



I've been doing car seat education for over seven years. I am strictly volunteer. I have right about 100 hours of training. I do it for the love of it. I go out of my way to learn more. I ask questions whenever I can. I've been paid exactly twice for all my hours of volunteer work. And that's okay with me. 

And so it will be with EMS - for now. Our family circumstances won't allow me to work full time. That doesn't mean I should continue putting off my education, and not work towards the certifications I want to have. I'll continue to ask questions, take classes, build my knowledge base. If I can get a paid position that fits with our family's needs, great. If not, then it's the volunteer line for me. And I'm okay with that.  

I think there are a lot of reasons people volunteer. Some of us just love it because we love it, and end up volunteering for any number of reasons.


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## daedalus (Oct 10, 2008)

Do you really think that you are doing your patients any good with 100 hours of training?


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## sixmaybemore (Oct 10, 2008)

daedalus said:


> Do you really think that you are doing your patients any good with 100 hours of training?



Please re-read. That 100 hours is for child passenger safety, not for EMS work. The current cirr. to train child passenger safety techs is 32 hours. I've taken every update class when it's available. So yeah, I'm doing the parents a lot of good with the training that I have. 

Do I want more training? Yep, I sure do. When more training becomes available, I'll take it.


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## Flight-LP (Oct 10, 2008)

ffemt8978 said:


> Hey...I feel left out.  1500 legal residents covering 240 sq. miles, and an hour to a McDonalds or a hospital in any direction.  Nearest ALS is 30 minutes away if we're driving towards each other, and medevac is 35 minutes.   Do I qualify?



If you have to drive an hour just for a Big Mac, then yea I'll cut you some slack. 

I'm trying to keep it simple so the rebuttals don't start. It's hard enough to argue the basic point, much less when you have variables....................


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## mdtaylor (Oct 10, 2008)

Flight-LP said:


> Honestly, I cannot understand why anyone gives their services away for free. If you are proficient at what you do and have pride in your work, why not earn some money doing it???



Because some of us are past our prime in this business and do it to keep our skills proficient and to give something back to the community in which we live. And because of our age or health status we do not want to sacrifice patient care by pushing ourselves beyond our limits. For the past few years I have limited myself to 12 hour day shifts only. I'm retired and don't want a job.


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## Sasha (Oct 10, 2008)

wxduff said:


> I don't get the Paid EMS is threatened by Volunteer argument.


EMS around here is 9/hour for EMT, 12/hr for Medic. People working at McDonalds make more than EMTs. Why do we do it? Because we love the job, BUT because people are willing to do it for free we dont have much of an angle for demanding higher wages. 

I love EMS, I think it is the most amazing thing ever, but my EMT license was too expensive, and my Medic license will be 10 times worse than that, to give away services for free. I need to pay back the gigantic student loans somehow.


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## TheAfterAffect (Oct 10, 2008)

Sasha said:


> EMS around here is 9/hour for EMT, 12/hr for Medic. People working at McDonalds make more than EMTs. Why do we do it? Because we love the job, BUT because people are willing to do it for free we dont have much of an angle for demanding higher wages.
> 
> I love EMS, I think it is the most amazing thing ever, but my EMT license was too expensive, and my Medic license will be 10 times worse than that, to give away services for free. I need to pay back the gigantic student loans somehow.



Go get your MICN then, Im sorry, But your argument still doesn't do it for me. I am both a Vollie and a Paid EMT, EMT Pay around my area is about 13 and Medic Around 24. We dont have Volunteer Medics in the state, All we have are Vollie EMT-B's. And most, if not all of the Vollie Corps do only 911. Any and all Paid companies will cover a towns EMS needs for the Day Shift when the Vollies are usually working for the paid company or at their other job. But thats only a select few towns that actually dont have the Man Power to run Vollie EMS 24/7. 

My town is a huge town, Im not one of those guys that is 30 minutes from the nearest hospital. I have 3 hospitals all within 10 minutes MAX. Nor is ALS that far out, they are based out of one of the three hospitals that is 5 min away. But still Volunteers trump the Paid companies because all the hospitals agree, even the ones i go to with my paid companies, that the Vollies just seem to act more professional. It seems that the paid companies are just hiring joe random off the street because he is an EMT. Does he act professional in the Rig? Look It? Talk it? Not at all, They hire whomever because they want to make the money. They get lucky here and there with a few guys, but thats it. Thats why the Paid companies are getting looked down on in my area, Because the Vollies act professional to make up for the slack that the Paid companies put onto them and EMS.


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## EMTWintz (Oct 10, 2008)

I am part of a vollie squad. In our county there is 16 small rural towns, one central paramedic squad. It takes a while for them to get to any of those towns. So yeah If someone is in full cardiac, can they wait 15-20min for help to arrive? Of those 16 towns my town (vollie squad of only 6) is top ranking according to the paramedics. Fastes response time and best basic care. So yes I am going to defend the other vollies!!!! And maybe not all vollies are doing it for the right reason, but I can assure you that there are plenty who are!!!! BTW we don't do it for free. It is minimal pay $5 in town $7 out of town paid by the city. But we do not do it for the pay or the glory. We do it because the people in our community mean something to each and every one of us and they deserve decent help PDQ


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## EMTWintz (Oct 10, 2008)

Sasha said:


> Volunteer squads are not my favorite, as stated many times before here:
> 
> *Paid EMS staff is going to be paid very poorly as long as there are people willing to do it for free*.



And I feel that this comment is full of crap!!!!!! but thats JMO


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## reaper (Oct 10, 2008)

As momma used to say, "Truth hurts, don't it"!


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## PRP Firefighter (Oct 10, 2008)

I have been a Volunteer for 20 plus years. I stay at the firehouse 2 times a week. I can do the job as well as the man that draws a pay check. If your looking for big money this is not the place to be. Quit *****ing and find a better paying job.


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## Sasha (Oct 10, 2008)

TheAfterAffect said:


> Go get your MICN then, Im sorry, But your argument still doesn't do it for me. I am both a Vollie and a Paid EMT, EMT Pay around my area is about 13 and Medic Around 24. We dont have Volunteer Medics in the state, All we have are Vollie EMT-B's. And most, if not all of the Vollie Corps do only 911. Any and all Paid companies will cover a towns EMS needs for the Day Shift when the Vollies are usually working for the paid company or at their other job. But thats only a select few towns that actually dont have the Man Power to run Vollie EMS 24/7.
> 
> My town is a huge town, Im not one of those guys that is 30 minutes from the nearest hospital. I have 3 hospitals all within 10 minutes MAX. Nor is ALS that far out, they are based out of one of the three hospitals that is 5 min away. But still Volunteers trump the Paid companies because all the hospitals agree, even the ones i go to with my paid companies, that the Vollies just seem to act more professional. It seems that the paid companies are just hiring joe random off the street because he is an EMT. Does he act professional in the Rig? Look It? Talk it? Not at all, They hire whomever because they want to make the money. They get lucky here and there with a few guys, but thats it. Thats why the Paid companies are getting looked down on in my area, Because the Vollies act professional to make up for the slack that the Paid companies put onto them and EMS.



Actually, I plan to get a nursing degree a year or so after Im done with medic. 

And you and your city must be the rarity, because anytime Ive been out of my state and seen a volunteer agency they were made up of hicks in street clothes playing medic boy. They responded in their POVs decked to the top with needless and surplus lights and sirens, stumbled out looking disheveled in wrinkled t-shirts and baggy jeans and had zero professionalism whatso ever, because they dont have to answer to a QA. Ive seen vollies curse at patients, argue with patients, etc. All from just visiting friends in different states.


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## Sasha (Oct 10, 2008)

EMTWintz said:


> BTW we don't do it for free. It is minimal pay $5 in town $7 out of town paid by the city.



Hate to break it to you, but if you are getting paid $5-$7 that makes you a PAID service, not a volunteer service.


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## Flight-LP (Oct 10, 2008)

EMTWintz said:


> And I feel that this comment is full of crap!!!!!! but thats JMO



You think so? Do this, next time you fly on a regional airline, ask the two knuckleheaded drivers up front how much they make. Especially the on sitting on the right. You may be surprised to hear their answer. Some Paramedics make more than both of them combined. Why is their pay so low? Because someone is always willing to do it cheaper. Some new pilots even PAY for the privledge to sit in that seat. Its the same with EMS.

If an area can get away with free labor, then there is little incentive to raise that bar financially.

So full of crap it is not, that has already been proven.......................




			
				PRP Firefighter said:
			
		

> I have been a Volunteer for 20 plus years. I stay at the firehouse 2 times a week. I can do the job as well as the man that draws a pay check. If your looking for big money this is not the place to be. Quit *****ing and find a better paying job.



Its not about the "big money". It has to do with allowing a decent earning for hard working professionals. When Paramedics (or EMT's for that matter) get paid crap wages because rescue ranger Ricky wants to play EMT at night, us professionals get a little steamed. Yes, there are dedicated and proficient people who volunteer their time, but they are few and far between. The majority are NOT in this industry for the right reasons. And should EMS hopefully continue the pull away from the fire service, the traditionalistic attitude many have from their personal history will continue to dissipate. Sorry, but the times are changing and EMS needs to change with it...................

And for the record, if it wasn't for my Paramedic experience, I wouldn't be earning the big money I do now!


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## TransportJockey (Oct 10, 2008)

daedalus said:


> +2
> 
> Its stated plenty of times, only because its so true



+3! We were flat out told by some higher ups in the state EMS bureau that until there are no Vollies, pay will most likely stay where it's at


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## EMTWintz (Oct 10, 2008)

Sasha said:


> Hate to break it to you, but if you are getting paid $5-$7 that makes you a PAID service, not a volunteer service.



Maybe I didn't make it clear enough for you!! I was not saying that MY squad was one of the unpaid. I was mearly defending the fact that NOT ALL vollie squads are slack jawed, chew-spitin' rednecks!!!!!! Most of us could care less if we were paid our lil' pissant 5 or 7 bucks. We would still do it because it is about the patient, most of whom I personally have known all my life.

IMO If you wanted to make the big money maybe an MD behind your name would be more suited.


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## reaper (Oct 10, 2008)

IMO if you cared about the people around you, you would be fighting to get higher care. This means doing away with the Vol. services.


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## EMTWintz (Oct 10, 2008)

reaper said:


> IMO if you cared about the people around you, you would be fighting to get higher care. This means doing away with the Vol. services.



If Im not mistaken anyone who has went through the EMT class and passed their State License test has to have CE. Vollies go thru the same education and training as paid squads. We get paid, yet we are still volunteer. All of us have jobs, we get a call and we put aside what we were doing to go help out a neighbor, friend or complete stranger. Which vol service you are speaking of doing away with. It is true that there are some who think running a flashy light and playin' with medical stuff is a kick, but don't generalize all vollie squads.


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## wxduff (Oct 10, 2008)

If you cared about the people around you, you wouldn't make them wait a half an hour for an ambulance.

If you really want more money, then don't take a job that people will do for free. And don't blame people for volunteering. Volunteering is selfless. If people didn't volunteer, what would happen to the boy scouts, the red cross, etc. This country was founded on selflessness. It's what makes this country great.

Volunteers are here to stay, sorry to say it. 

And in response:
Are you planning on becoming a EMS field provider?
As in a paid medic? I don't know. It depends on how my meteorology takes me. That job pays great, and it was one of my two passions as a kid, the other being firetrucks. But if I can't get a job in Meteorology (because its one of the most competitive fields out there), you bet I'd go back to school to get my medic in a heart beat. Plus that would give my fiancee the freedom to get a job where she wants, and then I'd find a Paid Squad to join near them. She's got a 4.0 Architecture student at an Ivy League. I'm sure she'll find a job.

Are you planning on advancing your education in EMS?
My community college offers a solid medic program. I can either get the certificate or an Associates. I'd get the associates, I have a lot of the classes out of the way already. And I already soak up as much knowledge as I can.

Are you passionate enough for it to stay in EMS for more than a few years?
If my other passion doesn't give me a career, then of course. I've always liked helping people. Why do you think I stuck with scouts to get my Eagle? Do you think it was easy? It really wasn't, but I loved volunteering enough and cared about my community. I'm passionate about everything I do. And if my job was being a paramedic, I'd be passionate about that too.


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## reaper (Oct 10, 2008)

Me, I'm talking about doing away with all of them. We can work one state at a time. Some states have gone to all ALS services. The rest will follow. As has been said, The only places that need a volley service is maybe Washington state, Montana,Wyoming, and a few other very rural states. Guess what, IL does not fall into that group.

The only argument that ever comes out of a volley is tradition and "We can't afford a paid service". Tradition is gone and the money issue has been shown to be a myth.

If you want to volley, join a FD. Leave medicine to the professionals!


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## Hastings (Oct 10, 2008)

I like the volunteers in my new service area because they're all retired paramedics and EMTs, many of which are so old that they were driving back in the day when business was conducted in a hearse. They have so much knowledge, and even more great stories. I love em.


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## EMTWintz (Oct 10, 2008)

reaper said:


> Me, I'm talking about doing away with all of them. We can work one state at a time. Some states have gone to all ALS services. The rest will follow. As has been said, The only places that need a volley service is maybe Washington state, Montana,Wyoming, and a few other very rural states. Guess what, IL does not fall into that group.
> 
> The only argument that ever comes out of a volley is tradition and "We can't afford a paid service". Tradition is gone and the money issue has been shown to be a myth.
> 
> If you want to volley, join a FD. Leave medicine to the professionals!



Some may run different than others. In my neck of the woods BLS (us vollie's) gets paged the same time as the PAID(well) paramedics 10miles away. I have been in the medical field for 6yr (not long by no means compared to some). I know how to start IV, I can read 12leads, I know how to push meds. I have taken many steps beyond just the EMTB class. I chose not to become a paramedic for the same reason I chose not to become an RN to much political BS. Would I call myself a good EMT? Heck Yes! Would I do this for no money at all? MOST DEFINATELY!!! Why? Because it is my duty to the community and those in need. 
Let me ask some of you that are wanting to do away with vollies. Do you get paid by a neighbor for "just doing whats right?"


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## ILemt (Oct 10, 2008)

*Time for me to weigh in I guess...*

I've held my tongue for a long time and I want to set the record straight about IL. ... Some folks here are claiming there is no need for Vollunteer Services in the state and that (to a lesser degree) there is no need for Basics on 911. 

Just because the state is Urban north of I-80 (and to a lesser degree I-74)
if you go south of I-70 you will find counties with total populations of less then 5000 and the only EMS some COUNTIES have is a single vollie BLS unit. (With the nearest hospital or ALS ambulance several counties over)
There is quite frankly no manpower or tax base to support a paid service, be it BLS or ALS. As for charging the patient or insurance direct... the average income in parts of the state is less then 20 grand, so that dont fly.
Down south may of the vollies vollie for the simple reason that if they don't do it, the county may well shut the doors and sell the ambulance; oh and BTW the nearest ambulance is now 45 minutes away. 

Talk about improving pay for the paid folks is great, but if you are in this for the check then join a public safety union or get a career change. 


Now I am a professional and I also serve a vollunteer squad on occasion. I am not a "whacker" -- whatever the hell that is. But I do have a jump bag, no o2 or AED (they are illegal on a POV in this area, not to mention crazy)
(Oh... anyone refering to an ambulance as a BUS should be hung)

Finally, for all the folks going on about how we are medical professionals and how we must get all the con ed we can (The majority of medics in this country don't have a degree to go with the cert)... HOWEVER, the majority of vollies do have a degree (in something or another) Or how we must spit shine our boots and slaughter a virgin to be more respected and fire the vollies to get a bigger check... GROW UP

By design, EMS is not definitive care in any form, even ALS, remember the star of life point 6. Any attempt to make it so would end in failure.
We are healthcare providers but are not medical professionals. 
We are public safety, same as Law Enforcement, Fire/Rescue, and Hazmat/Special Ops. Anyone who argues can PM me, but I do have my union card to fall back on and if you try and argue the point in my union hall you will have some very PO'd emts, cops and firefighters. (There again, most in EMS that DO belong to a union are associated with LE, Fire or even general laborers, NOT MD's or nurses)


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## KEVD18 (Oct 10, 2008)

ILemt said:


> (Oh... anyone refering to an ambulance as a BUS should be hung)



i would actually pay to watch you walk into a fdny ems house and say that.


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## ILemt (Oct 10, 2008)

... I'm sorry folks, I must be having a blonde moment.
As to my above post, for some reason I typed in that some folks have an issue with EMTs on 911 calls, I meant to say that some folks have a problem with vollies nationwide. ( not sure what I was thinknig but there you go) 

Also I want to point out one final thing...
All of the vollie EMTs and Medics (yes medics who are strictly in EMS as vollunteers) I've ever seen are more serious and learned about EMS then many paid folks I know. 

Why you may ask? Simple: they do it because they care, not because they are trying to get a paycheck.


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## ILemt (Oct 10, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> i would actually pay to watch you walk into a fdny ems house and say that.




Never been to FDNY, but have been to Chicago Fire and I walked away unscathed.


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## reaper (Oct 10, 2008)

I have been all over IL, from north to south. It is not as rural as some think. I have lived in areas that are far more rural and still had an established paid EMS service. 

It can and has been done, so that excuse does not cut it any longer.

You may consider yourself part of public safety, I am not. I am not part of LE, FD or Sanitation. My budget does  not come from Public safety. I have strived to become a medical professional and will continue to push for the changes. 

I have no problem with small rescue squads that assist a paid service. I have a problem with a town or city government that thinks so little of their citizen, that they do not push for top notch health care. Whether that is in EMS or a county hospital. The towns are the ones that do not strive for better services.

Have you fought the towns that say they will close the service, if no one volunteers? I have. I walked away with a paid service that was 24/7/365.

I have never stated that volley's were whackers. I have known many very good volley members. But, I also let them know that EMS is not a hobby. 

You have your opinion and I have mine. We can both disagree, that is what America is about. The changes are on the horizon, so be prepared for them.


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## ILemt (Oct 10, 2008)

Yeah, I've fought a town that was gonna shut the doors... and the EMTs lost.
Response time is now 45 minutes (running code 4) and folks have died as a result.

As for the changes on the horizon... I've looked at the drafts for the new National Standard... Time will tell, though so far I'm not impressed by what I read.


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## EMTWintz (Oct 10, 2008)

ILemt said:


> ...
> Also I want to point out one final thing...
> All of the vollie EMTs and Medics (yes medics who are strictly in EMS as vollunteers) I've ever seen are more serious and learned about EMS then many paid folks I know.
> 
> Why you may ask? Simple: they do it because they care, not because they are trying to get a paycheck.



Well said. Now for the beating from the others.


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## Sasha (Oct 10, 2008)

EMTWintz said:


> Well said. Now for the beating from the others.



Paid EMS cares as well, there is nothing wrong with wanting to be compensated for providing a service. As for all those that say Vollies are better because they just do it because they care for people, BS. There are a ton of volunteer EMS that do it just for the cool lights and sirens on their trucks, or to brag to the newest girl they are trying to get into their bed that they are an EMT.

Im not looking to be compensated an amazing amount of money for being an EMT or Medic, but I do want to be compensated better than the yahoo at McDonalds. Yet, because people are willing to play Randy and Rhonda Rescue we dont have a leg to stand on to try and move to increase the wages.

Thank God 99.8% of Florida is paid ALS service.


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## EMTWintz (Oct 10, 2008)

So the long and short of this is: Any organization or group that is providing a service "cheaper" than the others should be dis-banded or shut down? It is SOLEY the fault of those unpaid people that ya'll are not being fairly compensated?


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## wxduff (Oct 10, 2008)

Seriously, first off you complain about wages being low, then you say that there should be a paid service in these rural areas...

Which do you want? Higher pay or no more volunteers, because I guarantee there aren't enough people in some of those counties to supply a company with steady income. Who are you going to blame then for low wages?

Second, How is a town thinking little of a citizen by providing them with a quicker, equally educated, cheaper, and more passionate EMS service?

Sounds like somebodies just jealous they don't have the benefits a volunteer service can offer a small town. Or the compassion to do it for free.


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## Sasha (Oct 10, 2008)

wxduff said:


> more passionate EMS service?





> Sounds like somebodies just jealous they don't have the benefits a volunteer service can offer a small town. Or the compassion to do it for free.



Dude, come off your high horse. Its stupid to assume that only people who volunteer have compassion.

I have a lot of compassion. And student loans to pay off til Im 90 from my EMT, Medic and Gen Ed classes.


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## EMTWintz (Oct 10, 2008)

Sasha said:


> Dude, come off your high horse. Its stupid to assume that only people who volunteer have compassion.
> 
> I have a lot of compassion. And student loans to pay off til Im 90 from my EMT, Medic and Gen Ed classes.



That sucks, my EMT class was paid by the city I live in Donated by the caring and grateful citizens of my community


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## Sasha (Oct 10, 2008)

EMTWintz said:


> That sucks, my EMT class was paid by the city I live in Donated by the caring and grateful citizens of my community



Well cheers for you, but not all of us can live in Mayberry.


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## wxduff (Oct 10, 2008)

Same here... My department sponsored me to take my course.

You mean your department didn't sponsor you?

I didn't say volunteers were the ONLY people who were compassionate. I meant Paid Services who station 45 minutes away from rural areas, let people die who could have been saved by a volunteer service, and charge these people for care that could be provided for free because they want higher pay are un-compassionate.


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## Sasha (Oct 10, 2008)

wxduff said:


> Same here...
> 
> You mean your department didn't sponsor you?



Had I waited a year or so, I would have been sponsored for Medic.


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## EMTWintz (Oct 10, 2008)

Sasha said:


> Had I waited a year or so, I would have been sponsored for Medic.



My company handed me a check the day I told them I was interested in taking the class


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## EMTWintz (Oct 10, 2008)

Sasha said:


> Well cheers for you, but not all of us can live in Mayberry.



Well someone caring has to do it. That is why you are where you are and I choose to live in "Mayberry"


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## Sasha (Oct 10, 2008)

EMTWintz said:


> Well someone caring has to do it. That is why you are where you are and I choose to live in "Mayberry"



You are absolutely correct, however I live in Florida, in the Orlando area to be exact. I will take our EMS system over yours any day. Why? Because our EMTs must obviously care more, because they paid to put themselves through school to work for 9/hr. (that was sarcasm)

Actually, I would prefer our EMS system over yours because nearly all 911 agencies in Florida are paid ALS services. Even in the boonies.


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## wxduff (Oct 10, 2008)

That's great, and if you can support that there, then great.

Other parts of the country need volunteers because they provide a better service in their area. And these volunteers will continue doing this service until either their area urbanizes, or disappears.

Volunteers have a place in the EMS system, and if you want to lower patient care in these places because you want to rape those customers of their hard earned money and deserving quick response, then so be it. If you can live with that, so be it. But those people deserve a volunteer service that cares, that's fast, is trained the same material as the paid guys, and is affordable. A paid service 30 minutes away can't do that in comparison to a volunteer service <5 minutes away. End of story.


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## EMTWintz (Oct 10, 2008)

Sasha said:


> You are absolutely correct, however I live in Florida, in the Orlando area to be exact. I will take our EMS system over yours any day. Why? Because our EMTs must obviously care more, because they paid to put themselves through school to work for 9/hr. (that was sarcasm)
> 
> Actually, I would prefer our EMS system over yours because nearly all 911 agencies in Florida are paid ALS services. Even in the boonies.



Oh you care because you paid money to go into EMS to work 9 hr a day. Well us vollies work a full time job, get home to start spending time with our families, get a call in the middle of supper. Do we complain? No. Unlike working your 9hr. Do you get interupted while you are with your family? BTW good for your FL ALS. We do it for the love of the profession and the thanks we get for saving a life, not the money.


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## el Murpharino (Oct 10, 2008)




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## emtlady76877 (Oct 10, 2008)

A well trained volunteer can save a life the same as a well trained paid EMS personel if we learned what we were supposed to have in class and were certified. Then we both have the same capabilites that the other one has so stop arguing as to which one is the best. Yes, I am a volunteer right now; however, when I finish my paramedic school I already have a job offer waiting for me from an ambulance service that has seen my volunteer work. So therefore not all volunteers must be bad.


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## EMTWintz (Oct 10, 2008)

el Murpharino said:


>



Sorry not gona happen. To much estrogen in this post now.:lol:


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## KEVD18 (Oct 10, 2008)

the cl's must be having a day off or something.

as expected, this turned into a paid v. vollie thing in .2sec but they still havent locked it up.

the cls are slacking.......


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## EMTWintz (Oct 10, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> the cl's must be having a day off or something.
> 
> as expected, this turned into a paid v. vollie thing in .2sec but they still havent locked it up.
> 
> the cls are slacking.......



you have my word. IM done with this one. No one group is better than another. It is all what works best for the county. Cuz in the end, there will still be VOLLIES running around playin' Randy and Rhonda Rescuer. Paid or unpaid.


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## Sasha (Oct 10, 2008)

EMTWintz said:


> Oh you care because you paid money to go into EMS to work 9 hr a day.


No, I care because I care. Not because I paid to go to school, not because I get paid a crappy wage. I care because I just care. Being paid does not mean I care any less. Your argument that you care more is BS. If there was an opprotunity at a paid service chances are you would take it in a heart beat. But then that would make you compassionless, wouldnt it?


> BTW good for your FL ALS. We do it for the love of the profession and the thanks we get for saving a life, not the money


So do I. I certainly dont do it for the money, because I could go down the street, walk in and get a job that pays more an hour at a fast food restauraunt. Yet I CHOSE to be in EMS.


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## EMTWintz (Oct 10, 2008)

BLAH BLAH BLAH, Done already someone lock this post!!!!!!!


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## KEVD18 (Oct 10, 2008)

i dont need your word on anything sir. believe me when i tell you i couldnt possibly care less. theres nothing i like better than a good debate(argument) but a new one. or at least a fresh outlook on an old one. this is so old that theres nothing new to be said. the vollies are always going to say they are better because they do it for free. the career guys are always going to say they are better becuase they are professional. and around and around we go. happens about once a month.

id be curious as to how many members here have been run off by just this one simple topic. 

regardless, its a pointless argument. mainly because we'll all be part of the british empire again in a few years.....


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## wxduff (Oct 10, 2008)

Great, you chose paid EMS, then don't complain about wages.


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## EMTWintz (Oct 10, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> i dont need your word on anything sir. believe me when i tell you i couldnt possibly care less. theres nothing i like better than a good debate(argument) but a new one. or at least a fresh outlook on an old one. this is so old that theres nothing new to be said. the vollies are always going to say they are better because they do it for free. the career guys are always going to say they are better becuase they are professional. and around and around we go. happens about once a month.
> 
> id be curious as to how many members here have been run off by just this one simple topic.
> 
> regardless, its a pointless argument. mainly because we'll all be part of the british empire again in a few years.....



Ma'am thank you. Crap I thought for sure we'd be going to the Aussies!!


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## KEVD18 (Oct 10, 2008)

ma'am???????????????????


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## BossyCow (Oct 10, 2008)

Whoa Nellie!!!! Ya know folks, there is a middle ground here. It amazes me how those of us who deal in Patient Care, one of the most subjective, non-black and white, tons of gray area, lines of work that there is in the universe and take these polarized views of EMS.

Why does it have to be ..... "ALL VOLLIES ARE A DETRIMENT TO EMS"... or "VOLLIES ARE ALL SAINTS"  

There are vollie departments out there that are a disgrace and the fact that they are staffed with well meaning people who really want to make a difference doesn't amount to a hill of beans when their care is sub-par. There are departments out there who's administration uses volunteers as a way of augmenting their personnel numbers so their safety stats look better, because they have X number of responding personnel per thousand of population. Even though the numbers don't accurately reflect the availability of those responders or speak to their experience level or training. 

There are also some amazing vollie departments who are providing high levels of care and who's standards are high in initial training, CME and in the standards of care they give. There are communities where there is no option other than volunteer response. There are communities that are laying off EMS personnel and shutting down private ambulance systems, laying off firefighter, cops and medics because they can't afford the gas, employment taxes and salaries.

We have often trained EMTs in our department and watched them leave for high paying jobs in civil departments with the training the district paid for. Not one of them has stayed more than 2 years in this area because the more urban areas need medics and will pay them to come work. As young people starting out on their own, or beginning families, good for them. I'm comfortable having spent my tax dollars to provide a family with the ability to earn a living wage even if I personally only reap the benefits for a couple of years in my department.

The reality of this is that my department becomes a collection of us 'old dogs' trying to keep abreast of the 'new tricks'. I would dearly love for my department to be a paid department. But the economic reality of my demographic is that I probably won't see it in my lifetime without some form of socialized medicine or a drastic revision of the juristictional boundaries of my home. 

So, when someone here posts about some vollie department that just absolutely sucks.. why take it personally? If someone posts about a vollie department that's doing a good thing.. why attack them and use it as an opportunity to vent your spleen about vollies in general. 

Can't we direct our comments to the individual department, action or event that has caused our displeasure? Why make it global? EMS is changing. I for one agree that the change is needed. But I also don't have a lot of faith in a governmental agency's ability to make those revisions in a way that is going to best serve us all.  

BE A PART OF THE PROCESS FOLKS!!!!!!!


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## EMTWintz (Oct 10, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> ma'am???????????????????



Yes I am quite sure I am a ma'am. Have been all my life. Got the right parts anyway


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## KEVD18 (Oct 10, 2008)

sorry, read that the wrong way round. thought you were calling me ma'am. mea culpa, mea culpa...


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## EMTWintz (Oct 10, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> sorry, read that the wrong way round. thought you were calling me ma'am. mea culpa, mea culpa...



NP. Easy to lose track of who's callin' who, who


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## Sasha (Oct 10, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> sorry, read that the wrong way round. thought you were calling me ma'am. mea culpa, mea culpa...



You are a mam? You got some splanin to do, Kev D!


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## KEVD18 (Oct 10, 2008)

well im still preop


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## EMTWintz (Oct 10, 2008)

Oh turning outy to iny? good luck with that.


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## KEVD18 (Oct 10, 2008)

thanks. maybe you'll be willing to give me a makeup lesson???


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## EMTWintz (Oct 10, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> thanks. maybe you'll be willing to give me a makeup lesson???



Sorry no can do. Don't waste my money on that crap. Hides the natural beauty


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## Sasha (Oct 10, 2008)

EMTWintz said:


> Sorry no can do. Don't waste my money on that crap. Hides the natural beauty



Or enhances it.


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## KEVD18 (Oct 10, 2008)

sweet lord. the makeup version of the vollie v. paid debate.....


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## Oregon (Oct 10, 2008)

Fine, then.  I'm with EMTWintz on this one.  Plus, it attracts stingy bitey things.
Makeup, that is.


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## EMTWintz (Oct 10, 2008)

Not to mention you have to clean it off and hope you get all the black out from around your eyes, cuz if you don't you get clogged pores n zits.
But hey I refuse to get into a pissing match about this. W/E


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## traumateam1 (Oct 10, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> sweet lord. the makeup version of the vollie v. paid debate.....



LOL!!!! :lol::lol:


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## EMTWintz (Oct 10, 2008)

OMG It's estrogen-fest!!!


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## ffemt8978 (Oct 10, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> the cl's must be having a day off or something.
> 
> as expected, this turned into a paid v. vollie thing in .2sec but they still havent locked it up.
> 
> the cls are slacking.......



Some of us work for a living....







I see no point in letting this one continue.


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