# Fla. paramedics did job by not helping



## VentMedic (Jan 3, 2008)

*Fla. paramedics did job by not helping sinking car, officials say*

http://www.ems1.com/educationandtraining/articles/331336/

By Anthony Cormier
Sarasota Herald-Tribune
Copyright 2008 Sarasota Herald-Tribune 

BRADENTON, Fla. — Chaos reigned on Halloween night after a car drove through a dead end and crashed into a Bradenton retention pond. 

Two men from the car were in the water, calling for help. As their car sank, neighbors rushed over and dialed 911. 


http://www.ems1.com/educationandtraining/articles/331336/



> By then, one man had drowned. The other was alive, thrashing in the pond.
> 
> Jones did not go into the water to help, and took no other action in an attempt to save the man. Neither did the ambulance crew that arrived next.



http://www.ems1.com/educationandtraining/articles/331336/



> In 2005, Bradenton was sued by the family of a 33-year-old man who drowned in August 2004 while officers stood on the shore.





> In that case, the officers seem to be backed by the Florida Supreme Court. There is case law that suggests emergency workers have no obligation to save a life, and a 1985 ruling indicates that government agency employees have no "duty" to save a life.



http://www.ems1.com/educationandtraining/articles/331336/


> "Don't become part of the problem," said Robert C. Krause, a paramedic and industry consultant. "That's the first rule. If he goes in the water and something happens, now you have two victims."


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## Ridryder911 (Jan 3, 2008)

Very controversial and interesting topic. Personally, I do not really know what I would do in the exact same circumstance. 

Part of me would say I would be heroic and jump in and then the realistic part of me also realize that given that exact circumstance I may not. 

I would hope if my daughter was in the need, no one would hesitate. Then I would also hope they would have basic rescue gear having water recreation as part of their response area. 

Now, thinking of the basics of rescue the old reach, throw, rescue should be the norm of any rescue. I would hope a EMS would not have a protocol or SOP not to be involved. 

Does one really have to be so specialized to perform some basic procedures? 

Again, very thought provoking...

R/r 911


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## bstone (Jan 3, 2008)

Not an easy situation to call on. I would want to jump in and help, but we must wonder why two men drowned. Were they drunk? Did not know how to swim? If it was because it was dark and they were confused then certain the medics should not have jumped in the water. 

I wonder where the FD was in this one.....


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## Grady_emt (Jan 4, 2008)

Very thought provoking indeed.  I think that this is another one of those situations where it is impossible to say precisely what you would do in this situation.

Some other things to consider:
   This was stated to be a retention pond so even though it was still water (not a running river or ocean) there are other hazards to consider.  Runoff from roadways carries all kinds of nasty chemicals, water clarity and turbidity, the conditions of the land around the pond (dry, boggy, mud...), the marine life of the pond (FL remember Gators, Snakes, Frogs...)

That said, there is more that can be done than sitting and watching (monday morning quarterbacking here).  As a Boy Scout in several marine merit badges the philosophy of "Reach, Throw, Row, Go" is preached very heavily.  THe first two of this require no specialty equipment.  Many backboards are bouyant and can support some weight, and you could reach with one or place it in the water and shove it out to the person.  Think of what other items on your unit are bouyant: air splints, stretcher mattress, long board splints...

I'm not saying that those involved did the right or wrong thing, as I don't even think there is such a thing in these cases, just that it is a very situational decision made by those onscene.


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## VentMedic (Jan 4, 2008)

This is just one scenario where the patient may be just out of your reach and you will have to understand your limits.  Burning buildings and cars, unsecured crime scenes and chemical spills may be situations that you will have to be concerned for your safety and the safety of bystanders until you are able to treat the patient.  

There will also be an emotional issue and you may always question or be questioned, "could you have done more?".   If you kept yourself and others from being harmed, then you did your best.  And, you'll still hear, "the best is not always good enough".  No, this is not a perfect world.

Grady_emt, you are right about Florida's retention ponds and the canals are even worse.  Special gear is needed for water rescue in these bodies of water.  Of course you always hear some heroic stories about brave rescues from bystanders or PD. But, you also hear about the tradegies of those who tried to help and lost their own lives. 

*The Danger That Lurks In South Florida Canals*
http://cbs4.com/local/Canal.Dangers.Diving.2.404835.html
MIAMI (CBS4) ― Canals are a common sight in South Florida. You may even have one next to your backyard. But many people, especially teenagers, swim in them like they're neighborhood pools and that can be deadly, even for experienced swimmers.

CBS'S Natalia Zea donned special dive gear and went into a canal with rescue divers to expose the dangers that lie underwater.


*ENGINE COMPANY OPERATIONS: VEHICLE ACCIDENTS IN WATER*
http://www.fireengineering.com/articles/article_display.html?id=174412



> In 2000, according to the Florida Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles, law enforcement agencies indicated "ran off the road into water" as the first or subsequent harmful event in 1,332 vehicle crash reports in Florida in which 69 people died and 1,193 were injured. Not all the victims died as a result of drowning, but all the incidents involved vehicles that had entered a body of water.




*Martin County Dive Rescue Team *
http://martinfirefighters.com/dive.asp



> Dry diving suits and full-faced masks are used to help encapsulate the divers keeping them dry and safe from many types of underwater hazards. Much of the diving performed by team members takes place in complete darkness in retention ponds and canals. Encountering pesticides, heavy metals, submerged obstacles and otherwise potentially harmful chemicals or debris is always a threat to the divers. Due to the extra dangers involved in water rescue operations thorough training and safety are placed high on the team's agenda. In the wake of the events surrounding the past few years all Special Operations Teams and Firefighters alike are under more strenuous requirements. Whether it is the Technical Rescue Team (TERT), the MCDRT, or the Martin County Hazardous Materials Team, all Firefighters must maintain their skills and training and keep safety in mind. "Water rescue operations are not what they used to be, it's not just throwing on some dive gear and jumping in the water anymore" says Michael Lee the MCDRT Coordinator.


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## Chimpie (Jan 4, 2008)

I live within about 20 or so minutes to where this happened and I'm fairly certain this is the pond in question.

This is a very large pond and as noted in the article the accident occurred at night with no street lights available.  And as we all know when a two ton SUV goes crashing into a pond a lot of things can get stirred up inside.  Not to mention the wildlife inside.

Jumping into the pond would not have been a wise decision.

As for the FD, if I remember correctly, they were dispatched to the scene as well, but I may be wrong. Around here any accident that gets an ambulance also gets FD (both ran by the county, but separately). I cannot imagine the FD not getting dispatched to this call.


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## Rattletrap (Jan 4, 2008)

It is my wonder, were they able to see the man? 

If so, most backboards float. If in their shoes that would have an option tried. You can try to slide the board to them without causing danger to self. 

Was not there but have feeling the whole story not told.

BTW got start in EMS as a lifeguard.


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## daedalus (Jan 5, 2008)

We were all taught that the first commandment in EMS is scene safety. It was drilled into our heads like the gospel. Retreat retreat retreat and wait for the patient to be secured or rescused by the persons trained to do so. I even recall a small section of my text book in Enviromental Emergencies that stated not to attempt water rescue even if the victims appear to be drowning if you are not trained to do so.

All of this can easily explain why the paramedics did not JUMP IN to save the men.

BUT they COULD HAVE tried to be resourcefull and searched their ambulance and neighbors houses for airsplints/backboards/ropes/child's floaties/boogy boards, and also, been shouting up a storm over the radio for help. No matter what the law says our duty is or is not, we have an ethical duty as the 911 emergency vehicle and crew to help.


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## Arkymedic (Jan 5, 2008)

daedalus said:


> We were all taught that the first commandment in EMS is scene safety. It was drilled into our heads like the gospel. Retreat retreat retreat and wait for the patient to be secured or rescused by the persons trained to do so. I even recall a small section of my text book in Enviromental Emergencies that stated not to attempt water rescue even if the victims appear to be drowning if you are not trained to do so.
> 
> All of this can easily explain why the paramedics did not JUMP IN to save the men.
> 
> BUT they COULD HAVE tried to be resourcefull and searched their ambulance and neighbors houses for airsplints/backboards/ropes/child's floaties/boogy boards, and also, been shouting up a storm over the radio for help. No matter what the law says our duty is or is not, we have an ethical duty as the 911 emergency vehicle and crew to help.


 
Airsplints and rope? You have that on your truck? What about throw bags and life jackets? We don't on any service I have ever worked for except the EMS rescue truck but most is done by FD. AR and OK both have large amounts of waterways but EMS does not do rescue. This also occured in a retention pond that was not near homes from my understanding so improvision would be difficult. I personally do not swim worth a damn and will absolutely not go in the water PERIOD. Way too many drop offs and hidden dangers here in AR and OK even in shallower waters. I am sorry but my safety and my partners safety are paramount and no law or ruling will EVER change that. Add in the darkness, the murkiness of the water, the unknown, the suction the vehicle creates, the panic that most drowning victims have, and the fact that the patient was very large and this makes for a easy LODD had they gone in. From what I read FD was on scene within 2 min and as much a tragedy it is that the pt's died, it would have been worse as a LODD. I also do not think the whole story is here because I cannot believe Paramedics would stand there and do absolutely nothing like a bump on a log though. I also understand that the most important thing about my job is that I get to go home to my wife the next morning when my 24 or 48 hours are up. Whatever it takes to make that goal happen is what I will do.


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## Flight-LP (Jan 5, 2008)

How do I say this politically correct (since that is my strong point of course!)??????

EMS performing rescue makes about as much sense as EMT's intubating. There is no place for a medical crew performing rescue, unless they receive specialty training in various forms of rescue. This is generally a duty of the fire department or specific rescue agencies. Hell, many can't do the job they have proficiently, why add additional duties????

This could have led to tragedy. We have already lost 3 souls this week due to an attempt to perform search and rescue. Those attempting were not trained nor equipped, all they had were good intentions. Unfortunately that was not enough to keep them alive. As I always state to new medics when they ride with me..............Do make someone else's emergency your own!


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## BossyCow (Jan 5, 2008)

I will assume that the medics in question saw risks they were unequipped for and chose not to put themselves at risk.  While this is contrary to the public's opinion of EMS personnel as 'heroes' who are going to jump in and save them from their own stupidity and mistakes, its the first step in every scene size up.  

Our rescue unit does have the rescue disks, like a frisbee with a rope attached.  I can see the possibility of tossing out a backboard for the 'thrashing' subject to swim towards, but was he coherent enough to hear the instructions that it was coming?  Was he rational enough to even see it and swim towards it? 

Too easy for the public to armchair quarterback this incident because they want to believe that $12 an hour is enough to hire people willing to jump into unknown waters and save someone who placed themselves in danger through a mistake in judgement.  After all, didn't they see that on TV a billion times?  

I know enough about water rescue to know when not to try to help.  Too many rescuers are lost doing things wrong, with too little equipment, too little training or knowledge about the water and the incident.


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## firetender (Jan 5, 2008)

I agree that primary duty of a medic is to make sure he/she can run the next call AND there's an unwritten obligation to try everything at your disposal to prevent further injury or death. The picture painted did not describe what, if any, on-shore attempts were made. If none were, then that's something the medic's must live with, and learn from. Sometimes we do make mistakes. Sometimes people die from it. The only difference between us and anyone else is the stakes we play with.


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## bonedog (Jan 7, 2008)

I like to re-inforce the first rule, to quote Sean Connery " AT THE END OF YOUR SHIFT, GO HOME ALIVE"

The excited state of litigation has caught up to us here in the north also though, we aren't supposed to go more than 25 meters off the road or down a bank greater than 25 degree's. Pretty tough when in many cases there are no FR and you are the only show for miles......


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## rescuepoppy (Jan 29, 2008)

I know this thread has been up a while but last night we had a car in a pond near a road unknown if anyone inside. As a diver I was called to the scene with another diver to check it out.  The car was barely submerged but due to dark and cold no way was I going in without full dive gear.  Ithink these Florida medics made what they felt was the right call,  By the way our car was reported stolen while we were pulling it out SURPRISE, the owner was etoh getting out of the shower when leo went to talk to him.


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## Arkymedic (Jan 30, 2008)

bonedog said:


> I like to re-inforce the first rule, to quote Sean Connery " AT THE END OF YOUR SHIFT, GO HOME ALIVE"
> 
> The excited state of litigation has caught up to us here in the north also though, we aren't supposed to go more than 25 meters off the road or down a bank greater than 25 degree's. Pretty tough when in many cases there are no FR and you are the only show for miles......


 
You gotta love Jim Malone and Eliot Ness . _The Untouchables_ is one of my all time favorite movies. Not old enough to have seen or remember the tv series it was based off though.


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