# Alleged "Tactical Paramedic" Arrested for Open Carrying



## fast65 (Aug 27, 2010)

Just saw this on another forum and thought I would post it up here. Basically a man is arrested for open carrying through a mall parking lot and claims he is a tactical paramedic when he is stopped by the police. Here's the news story:

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=149104&catid=339

It seems there are getting to be more and more cases of people impersonating EMT's/Paramedics lately


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## Akulahawk (Aug 27, 2010)

He was arrested for carrying a weapon on public transportation, which is a Felony in Colorado, according to the Article. Open Carry itself, may or may NOT be a crime. He was also impersonating a Paramedic... and he apparently has a juvenile record that prohibits him from firearms possession. 

Really, uhm... good guy for sure!


Or a nut.


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## jjesusfreak01 (Aug 27, 2010)

Silly cops...tactical medic...I'm going to try that line. If you are an armed tactical medic, aren't you technically a law enforcement officer then? If you are a tac medic that never carries on the job (ie, when working with swat), then you are just a medic and can't open carry?


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## medicdan (Aug 27, 2010)

Look at Maryland State Police's Choppers... they have armed Law Enforcement Officers, who are also paramedics and function in a medical capacity, but also on vehicle chases, searches, etc.


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## Akulahawk (Aug 27, 2010)

jjesusfreak01 said:


> Silly cops...tactical medic...I'm going to try that line. If you are an armed tactical medic, aren't you technically a law enforcement officer then? If you are a tac medic that never carries on the job (ie, when working with swat), then you are just a medic and can't open carry?


If a SWAT Team wants to have a "Tactical Medic" doing entries with them, one very efficient way to do that is to provide the medic with the minimum training necessary to exercise peace officer powers, then put the medic through an appropriate tactical med school. It is not cost-effective to put an Officer through Paramedic school after they're hired. You do not necessarily have to be a sworn officer to carry on duty.


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## adamjh3 (Aug 27, 2010)

Akulahawk said:


> If a SWAT Team wants to have a "Tactical Medic" doing entries with them, one very efficient way to do that is to provide the medic with the minimum training necessary to exercise peace officer powers, then put the medic through an appropriate tactical med school. It is not cost-effective to put an Officer through Paramedic school after they're hired. You do not necessarily have to be a sworn officer to carry on duty.



There are also some agencies where the "Tactical medics" are not armed, which makes zero sense to me. But what do I know?


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## WolfmanHarris (Aug 27, 2010)

adamjh3 said:


> There are also some agencies where the "Tactical medics" are not armed, which makes zero sense to me. But what do I know?



That's the way it is everywhere in Ontario (and to the best of knowledge the rest of Canada).


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## Aprz (Aug 27, 2010)

Should just go onto an EMT forum and pretend to be a First Responder or EMT. Aim low, and you won't get caught. That's what I do!


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## LucidResq (Aug 27, 2010)

Akulahawk said:


> If a SWAT Team wants to have a "Tactical Medic" doing entries with them, one very efficient way to do that is to provide the medic with the minimum training necessary to exercise peace officer powers, then put the medic through an appropriate tactical med school. It is not cost-effective to put an Officer through Paramedic school after they're hired. You do not necessarily have to be a sworn officer to carry on duty.



That's what we mostly have out here from what I've seen, but the city I work for does have 2 SWAT officers who also happen to be paramedics and function in the TEMS capacity along with the medics from the FD who have that extra LE/TEMS training.... I believe those officers were medics prior to coming to law enforcement though. And I'm certain the PD did not put them through paramedic school.


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## Akulahawk (Aug 27, 2010)

adamjh3 said:


> There are also some agencies where the "Tactical medics" are not armed, which makes zero sense to me. But what do I know?


With those teams, the medics aren't normally part of the entry team. They stay back, and may operate inside the perimeter of the incident but they are not authorized to follow the team beyond a certain point. They function in an advisory capacity for team medical health and for hostage health as well.


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## LucidResq (Aug 27, 2010)

Akulahawk said:


> With those teams, the medics aren't normally part of the entry team. They stay back, and may operate inside the perimeter of the incident but they are not authorized to follow the team beyond a certain point. They function in an advisory capacity for team medical health and for hostage health as well.



Hahaha reminds me of a SWAT/TEMS training I played in once. They wanted to test their new TEMS medics.  Basically, it was a felony stop of a bank robbery getaway vehicle... I was the driver, who was shot in the back by the main bad dude (with SIM rounds) once I decided to surrender by exiting the vehicle hands in the hair. 

Then I got to drag myself using my hands to the medics (armed) who were staging near their rig, about 20 yards or so away from the vehicle. As part of the scenario I was screaming and yelling and cursing at them to help me.... but they just stood there... which is actually exactly what they were supposed to do. They waited til one of the SWAT dudes was available to come over and do his thing... pat me down and zip tie my hands and cover for them... before starting their assessment/treatment. 

I can also tell you in a school shooting / hostage scenario, a different but similar pair of agencies had a medic or two (also armed) follow close behind the entry team. I got to be a dead girl... shot in the head (I've got sweet moulage pictures) and down in a hallway they came through very soon after entering. The medic dragged me out of the school before starting any assessments. Lots of fun... "are you breathing?" Nope. "pulse?" Nope. "Dammit!" and off he went. 

Just some pictures of what this whole TEMS thing might actually play out like... of course I don't know a whole lot about this stuff, but I've played patient for them enough that I picked up on a few things.


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## jjesusfreak01 (Aug 27, 2010)

IMHO, there shouldn't be a middle ground where you have medics that can carry on the job, but not anywhere else. If the police don't believe they are trained well enough to be considered a full officer that can carry off duty, then they shouldn't be letting them carry on duty.


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## Akulahawk (Aug 27, 2010)

jjesusfreak01 said:


> IMHO, there shouldn't be a middle ground where you have medics that can carry on the job, but not anywhere else. If the police don't believe they are trained well enough to be considered a full officer that can carry off duty, then they shouldn't be letting them carry on duty.


With limited powers officers, their employer is often OK with on-duty carry, but they often do not want to be "on the hook" for an off-duty incident. So, in those instances, they'll advise the person to get a CCW... Also, sometimes the State itself doesn't provide for limited duty officers to be able to carry "on the badge" so to speak. This ties the hands of the PD in whether they can authorize off-duty carry.


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## adamjh3 (Aug 27, 2010)

There shouldn't have to be a middle ground. Anyone deemed sane and competent enough to be part of a TEMS team should also recieve the same training as officers, including academy, and becoming full fledged police officers. 

There is zero reason someone should be expected to go inside the line without the means to defend him/herself.

If you're not going to be inside the line, you shouldn't be TEMS, you should be staging until the scene is safe or having the wounded brought to you by people who do have the training and resources to cross that line and extract said wounded.


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## Akulahawk (Aug 27, 2010)

adamjh3 said:


> There shouldn't have to be a middle ground. Anyone deemed sane and competent enough to be part of a TEMS team should also recieve the same training as officers, including academy, and becoming full fledged police officers.
> 
> *There is zero reason someone should be expected to go inside the line without the means to defend him/herself.*
> 
> If you're not going to be inside the line, you shouldn't be TEMS, you should be staging until the scene is safe or having the wounded brought to you by people who do have the training and resources to cross that line and extract said wounded.


One doesn't have to be a full-fledged officer to be able to protect yourself "inside the line" as you put it. For instance, a TEMS trained paramedic that's also been through PC832 Arrest & Firearms (which is minimum to exercise peace officer powers) is fully capable of functioning as part of a SWAT entry team member, and the PD can sponsor the Medic through a SWAT course if need be. I don't know of any team that has an entry medic that is unarmed, though I wouldn't be surprised to learn that they exist...


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## MasterIntubator (Aug 28, 2010)

Chuck Norris the medic does not need a gun.


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## jjesusfreak01 (Aug 28, 2010)

Akulahawk said:


> With limited powers officers, their employer is often OK with on-duty carry, but they often do not want to be "on the hook" for an off-duty incident. So, in those instances, they'll advise the person to get a CCW... Also, sometimes the State itself doesn't provide for limited duty officers to be able to carry "on the badge" so to speak. This ties the hands of the PD in whether they can authorize off-duty carry.



Although I personally think CCW permits are great, officers are allowed to carry everywhere whereas CCW permit holders are often still extremely limited in where they can carry. Schools are totally off limits, as are any business that serves alcohol (in my state, even if you aren't there to drink, you can't carry), and any business that decides they don't want you to carry. While that is totally their right, its pretty stupid because it ignores the fact that CCW permit holders are the safest gun owners out there, and arguably the type of people you would want in your establishment if a criminal ever walked in with a gun. My point here is, it is extremely silly IMHO to have all of these levels of who can carry where. It should be if you are trained to carry concealed (and if this was the law it might not be a bad idea to lengthen the CCW courses), then you can carry everywhere (except crazy private businesses who like putting up a "no one in here is armed, criminals welcome) sign.


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## Phlipper (Aug 28, 2010)

I hope the Para impersonator clown gets three days in the electric chair.  Crap like this is just another thing to make folks feel uncomfortable with open carry these days.  Used to be very common, and I still open carry at times.  But more and more folks get very nervous when you rock the Glock in the Food Lion checkout line, no matter how sane you appear nor how neatly dressed you are.

I don't know for absolute sure, because the SRT Captains didn't tell me personally and you know how crap gets spread, but in a couple of NC counties I've been told that their TEMS guys go in on the stack.  That they are actually part of the entry team.  The other three or four counties I superficially researched required the TEMS inside the perimeter but no entries.  And for the counties where they stack in they still cannot carry unless they are sworn (attended BLS, or some portion thereof to be legal PD carry).  Instead they receive minimal weapons training so they could use an officers firearm in an emergency (I thought it would be an emergency already if they were on a call  ).  I'd love to be on an entry team as a tactical medic, but that 'can't carry' part concerns me. :lol:


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