# As of dec 20 2012 all medic programs go to 2 years



## bajamedic (Aug 12, 2011)

THANKS TO THE FOOLS AT THE NATIONAL REGISTRY. I HOPE AS MANY STATES AS POSSIBLE OPT OUT OF THE NATIONAL REGISTRY. WE HAVE MEDICS WORKING ON BLS RIGS BECAUSE THEIR ARE NO JOBS. I CAN SEE THE FIRE SERVICE FIGHTING THIS AS IT MAKE NO SENSE. :angry: WHAT DEPARTMENTS CAN AFFORD TO SEND A GUY TO SCHOOL FOR 2 YEARS.


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## Shishkabob (Aug 12, 2011)

2 year program,  or accredited program? 

Big difference.

It makes plenty of sense as it attempts to have a minimum standard in schools


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## fast65 (Aug 12, 2011)

So you don't think a better education requirement is a good thing? Care to go into more detail?

But as Linuss said, I'm pretty sure they need to be accredited, not two year programs.

Sent from my mobile command center


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## SanDiegoEmt7 (Aug 12, 2011)

So when the influx of 6 month trained paramedics slows down because "My god, two years of paramedic school is a lot of work just so can get that fire job."  your amigos working BLS will have more jobs available to them.


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## FrostbiteMedic (Aug 12, 2011)

I only have one thing to say: What is another semester of training going to hurt? Are you (the OP) against progressive educational standards for this profession? Personally, when I take my medic course (saving up for it so I can pay outta pocket) I hope that I have to be there two years. That will mean that I will receive more education. Education is the one thing that NO ONE can take away from you. The more I know, the more I have learned, the better I can treat and relate to my patients. So I hope that two years becomes the standard. 

Just my $0.02


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## 8jimi8 (Aug 12, 2011)

Should make it a 4 year standard with an option for 6.

then they should pay a living wage commensurate with your level of education.


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## adamjh3 (Aug 12, 2011)

bajamedic said:


> WHAT DEPARTMENTS CAN AFFORD TO SEND A GUY TO SCHOOL FOR 2 YEARS.



There's a key just to the left of your A key, go ahead and hit that.

Why should an agency pay for schooling? In how many other fields does one get a free ride for their education?

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## fast65 (Aug 12, 2011)

8jimi8 said:


> Should make it a 4 year standard with an option for 6.
> 
> then they should pay a living wage commensurate with your level of education.



I'm in 100% agreement

Sent from my mobile command center


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## FrostbiteMedic (Aug 12, 2011)

bajamedic said:


> I CAN SEE THE FIRE SERVICE FIGHTING THIS AS IT MAKE NO SENSE. :angry: WHAT DEPARTMENTS CAN AFFORD TO SEND A GUY TO SCHOOL FOR 2 YEARS.



Oh, I almost forgot to add that I really hope that the fire service does NOT fight this. Why? Because, even though I am a firefighter, I believe that to get the recognition as a profession EMS should be totally seperate from the fire service. Again, just my $0.02.


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## bajamedic (Aug 12, 2011)

*Accredited OK.............*

Well define accredited? Subjective or objective determination. Don't think you are talking to a new guy, I have been in public safety since 1985. It does not serve the job market. Medic skills are not that hard. It's just like being a pilot. Kids can come over here from India and train for 600 hours and go home and fly 737 for a living. American kids need 3 times that. We are in recession and agency and students don't have money. It is nothing more than the College mafia of educators funding there jobs. In Germany it is an apprentice program OJT. We have a  shortage of money to put rigs on the road, that is why EMT-Ps are working as basics. MONEY is the issue, and  we are headed in the wrong direction. NREMT is in OHIO and they are not on the streets of southern California and should have no influence on what happens here. Once again our trade is making it something it is not, there is a million ways to put water on a fire, and I can hire better firefighters out of Tijuana for less, you don't need a 2 year degree to be a medic. Law enforcement is 100 times harder than EMS and they train officers is 6 months. Bullets and crazy people are allot harder to deal with than sick or torn in half. LIKE I SAID BEFORE, I HOPE MOST STATES OPT OUT OF THE NREMT PROGRAM.

A living wage you will never get paid. Attorneys are waiting tables.  Quit being brainwashed and do the research, recession. Allot of departments are going back to volunteers. Doctor mob and nurse mob will never let you get paid more than them. Go be a Doctor. This is street EMS.


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## 8jimi8 (Aug 12, 2011)

bajamedic said:


> Well define accredited? Subjective or objective determination. Don't think you are talking to a new guy, I have been in public safety since 1985. It does not serve the job market. Medic skills are not that hard. It's just like being a pilot. Kids can come over here from India and train for 600 hours and go home and fly 737 for a living. American kids need 3 times that. We are in recession and agency and students don't have money. It is nothing more than the College mafia of educators funding there jobs. In Germany it is an apprentice program OJT. We have a  shortage of money to put rigs on the road, that is why EMT-Ps are working as basics. MONEY is the issue, and  we are headed in the wrong direction. NREMT is in OHIO and they are not on the streets of southern California and should have no influence on what happens here. Once again our trade is making it something it is not, there is a million ways to put water on a fire, and I can hire better firefighters out of Tijuana for less, you don't need a 2 year degree to be a medic. Law enforcement is 100 times harder than EMS and they train officers is 6 months. Bullets and crazy people are allot harder to deal with than sick or torn in half. LIKE I SAID BEFORE, I HOPE MOST STATES OPT OUT OF THE NREMT PROGRAM.
> 
> A living wage you will never get paid. Attorneys are waiting tables.  Quit being brainwashed and do the research, recession. Allot of departments are going back to volunteers. Doctor mob and nurse mob will never let you get paid more than them. Go be a Doctor. This is street EMS.



ok you lost me there Rambo


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## Chimpie (Aug 12, 2011)

bajamedic said:


> Well define accredited? Subjective or objective determination. Don't think you are talking to a new guy, I have been in public safety since 1985. It does not serve the job market. Medic skills are not that hard. It's just like being a pilot. Kids can come over here from India and train for 600 hours and go home and fly 737 for a living. American kids need 3 times that. We are in recession and agency and students don't have money. It is nothing more than the College mafia of educators funding there jobs. In Germany it is an apprentice program OJT. We have a  shortage of money to put rigs on the road, that is why EMT-Ps are working as basics. MONEY is the issue, and  we are headed in the wrong direction. NREMT is in OHIO and they are not on the streets of southern California and should have no influence on what happens here. Once again our trade is making it something it is not, there is a million ways to put water on a fire, and I can hire better firefighters out of Tijuana for less, you don't need a 2 year degree to be a medic. Law enforcement is 100 times harder than EMS and they train officers is 6 months. Bullets and crazy people are allot harder to deal with than sick or torn in half. LIKE I SAID BEFORE, I HOPE MOST STATES OPT OUT OF THE NREMT PROGRAM.
> 
> A living wage you will never get paid. Attorneys are waiting tables.  Quit being brainwashed and do the research, recession. Allot of departments are going back to volunteers. Doctor mob and nurse mob will never let you get paid more than them. Go be a Doctor. This is street EMS.



Wow, so much of this needs to be pulled apart and debated but I need to head to an appointment.  Who wants to do this for me?


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## fast65 (Aug 12, 2011)

I still fail to see your point, it seems as though you prefer that EMS regresses back to the days where we just toss them in the back of a truck and drive to the hospital with no initial treatment. 

Oregon requires a two year degree to be a paramedic, and I personally think it's a great idea. We shouldn't be encouraging cookbook medics, just so FD's can say they have "paramedics". 

Sent from my mobile command center


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## medicsb (Aug 12, 2011)

Boo-hoo.


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## MrBrown (Aug 12, 2011)

Wrong.  All programs need to be "accredited"

There is a patch factory in Northern Indiana that is "accredited" and the Fire Service sits on the board of the COAEMSP so what is the point? Talk about the fox investigating the hen house.

Until the US sees a problem with somebody who has as little as 16 weeks of total "education" being allowed to practice at a level that in other nations takes four to seven years to obtain there will be no advancement.


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## Akulahawk (Aug 12, 2011)

fast65 said:


> I still fail to see your point, it seems as though you prefer that EMS regresses back to the days where we just toss them in the back of a truck and drive to the hospital with no initial treatment.
> 
> *Oregon requires a two year degree to be a paramedic*, and I personally think it's a great idea. We shouldn't be encouraging cookbook medics, just so FD's can say they have "paramedics".
> 
> Sent from my mobile command center


I also think that Oregon has the right idea. Require a 2 year degree, with an option for 4 or 6... depending upon the ultimate goal of the Paramedic. Hmmm. Sounds a LOT like what the Nurses did. Would I like to see a more thorough education for Paramedics? Absolutely! Where do I think it should go? I think the education should be more like a PA's, just optimized for prehospital. Should a Paramedic wish to become a PA, all that would be needed is the additional coursework to complete a PA's education, much like UC Davis's FNP program. If the FNP wants to also be a PA, the additional coursework just needs to be done...


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## Aidey (Aug 12, 2011)

I'm totally failing to see what on earth you are so worked up about OP. The current low education standards are atrocious and desperately need to be increased. Screw the recession, "Nurse mob", "Doctor mob", and the IAFF/IAFC.


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## WolfmanHarris (Aug 12, 2011)

Two years for PCP (BLS) in Ontario. A further year for ACP (ALS). The world did not end. In fact the change was one of the main reasons I now make $34.50/hr (PCP) and that is not even the top in the Province. In contrast minimum wage here is $10.75/hr.


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## AlphaButch (Aug 12, 2011)

bajamedic said:


> Well define accredited? Subjective or objective determination. Don't think you are talking to a new guy, I have been in public safety since 1985. It does not serve the job market. Medic skills are not that hard. It's just like being a pilot. Kids can come over here from India and train for 600 hours and go home and fly 737 for a living. American kids need 3 times that. We are in recession and agency and students don't have money. It is nothing more than the College mafia of educators funding there jobs. In Germany it is an apprentice program OJT. We have a  shortage of money to put rigs on the road, that is why EMT-Ps are working as basics. MONEY is the issue, and  we are headed in the wrong direction. NREMT is in OHIO and they are not on the streets of southern California and should have no influence on what happens here. Once again our trade is making it something it is not, there is a million ways to put water on a fire, and I can hire better firefighters out of Tijuana for less, you don't need a 2 year degree to be a medic. Law enforcement is 100 times harder than EMS and they train officers is 6 months. Bullets and crazy people are allot harder to deal with than sick or torn in half. LIKE I SAID BEFORE, I HOPE MOST STATES OPT OUT OF THE NREMT PROGRAM.
> 
> A living wage you will never get paid. Attorneys are waiting tables.  Quit being brainwashed and do the research, recession. Allot of departments are going back to volunteers. Doctor mob and nurse mob will never let you get paid more than them. Go be a Doctor. This is street EMS.



Accreditation by CAAHEP is an objective set of requirements that is not that hard to obtain. The new rules do NOT require a 2 year education, they require that you have attended an accredited program.

As far as it serving the job market - It is not the goal of any EMS service I know of (Private, public, or third) to _serve_ the job market. These services do not exist to give people jobs. They exist to provide a service, make a profit, or both. 

"Medic skills are not that hard." - This would depend on your service. I don't find the National Registery paramedic curriculum difficult, but I found the curriculum for my particular service to be very challenging. You won't have to worry about EMT-Ps working as Basics. Raising the education standards will lessen the supply of certified paramedics. You may however have to worry about a heavy abundance of basics.

When comparing education/pay ratios, it quickly becomes a "chicken or egg" discussion. Which comes first? higher pay? or higher education?

Money is an issue. The only way to improve on this is to provide more value and demand higher reimbursement. How do agencies provide more value? Expand services, raise standards, raise efficiency, etc. The easiest way is to raise standards and increase the barrier to entry of services - thereby reducing supply.

 How do individuals provide more value? A higher education is a pretty easy way to do it. 

Doctors and Nurses against the pay rates? Irrelevant (with a few exceptions) and not in my observation. They don't decide what you get paid (unless you're hospital based). I've discussed education and pay with many doctors and nurses, the common complaint isn't regarding our pay. The major gripe is that EMS tends to have little in the way of education.

I can only think of one Law Enforcement agency in my area that does not require a two year education _before_ going to the academy, unless done with a prior military waiver.

At my service, folks get paid a wage based on the value they bring to the service. Which is very livable. Again, EMS agencies don't exist to give people a job. 

I agree that we're in a recession, which makes it an ideal time to raise the standards. Those who are committed to the job and want to excel will meet those standards. Those who aren't, will have to go elsewhere. Raising the standards will reduce the pool of applicants - and as the economy recovers, compensation can rise (and it will have to, due to the decrease in qualified personnel).


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## medichopeful (Aug 12, 2011)

_Edit: Probably should have read the "troll" sticky before responding.  _


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## bajamedic (Aug 12, 2011)

*I don't see recession ending anytime before 2025*

Now is a time when we should be putting people to work in areas such as EMS and fire. EMS and fire protection and nursing for that matter are ares we we should be flooding the market with applicants who are willing to work for a close to minimum wage. They are service jobs, in many  other countries the type of jobs that others don't want. The standard has no need to change, this is  not market driven. Most areas have hospitals within 10 mins of most response areas. America should be filling EMTs courses and Medic courses with the unemployed, putting people back to work. I know of many LE agencies that hire with a high school diploma. That is why an LEO cannot be an expert witness or even testify to MVA in California. I think this agenda will die a hard death as we see less and less money for public safety. Most of the general public have no clue what a Paramedic is and just sees them as ambulance drivers.

 I am amazed at that lack of concern for the severe lack of funding that is right around the corner. You are not going to turn EMS into nursing. It will never pay the big bucks. If we go to socialized health care it will be a 10.00 dollar an hour job. As soon as it interferes with system delivery the fire service will force changes on the local level that will shut down private EMS.

No one is going to pay private EMS the money to pay 25.00 an hour. States and Cities will opt our of the NR and go back to testing at the local level.

This may not be the case in areas such as Texas where the state is solvent. But in the big cities where 90 percent of EMS runs don't pay. No way.


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## usalsfyre (Aug 12, 2011)

Bajamedic, I suggest you stop drinking whatever Kool-Aid your partaking in and wake up. If paramedics are working in basic spots I would say the market is ALREADY flooded. Go take a peek around a nursing board and see how the job market is in that field right now.

As for it being "street EMS" and "law enforcement is way harder", what makes medicine practiced out of the hospital so much different than what's practiced in the hospital? Other allied health professions are appalled at the autonomy granted for the educational level of EMS. 

I'm sorry this is a setback to your dream of being a hero on the BRT. But it's the right thing. Get with the program, or get out.

Edited to add: Southern California is not representative of EMS in the majority of the US. So basing anything of that area is flawed to begin with.


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## Smash (Aug 13, 2011)

usalsfyre said:


> As for it being "street EMS" and "law enforcement is way harder", what makes medicine practiced out of the hospital so much different than what's practiced in the hospital? Other allied health professions are appalled at the autonomy granted for the educational level of EMS.



I think that is the crux of the issue there.  It would appear to me that this person is unwilling, or more likely unable, to practice medicine, hence the rant against education in EMS.  Mind you, to my mind practising medicine in the field is far harder because I don't have all the tools. toys and support that comes with being in a hospital.  Maybe that is just me.



bajamedic said:


> I am amazed at that lack of concern for the severe lack of funding that is right around the corner. You are not going to turn EMS into nursing. It will never pay the big bucks. If we go to socialized health care it will be a 10.00 dollar an hour job. As soon as it interferes with system delivery the fire service will force changes on the local level that will shut down private EMS.
> 
> No one is going to pay private EMS the money to pay 25.00 an hour. States and Cities will opt our of the NR and go back to testing at the local level.



I had to LOL at this.  I always enjoy the demented paranoia that comes with the spittle flecked ranting about "socialized health care".  I live under such a terrible, communistic system and you are right, no-one will pay me $25/hour.  Because I wouldn't get out of bed for that little.

Have a look at pretty much any country with socialized health care and try to find one where their EMS staff are paid worse than in the US.

At the same time the US consistently provides worse health outcomes for greater cost than any other developed country who have socialized health care.

I'll second Usalsfyre - stop drinking the Kool-Aid.


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## MrBrown (Aug 13, 2011)

Brown agrees with that Smash fellow

Brown is dissapointed for Smash that the Melbourne or the Alfred do not allow him to nick at CT machine and tow it behind that Vanbusprinter he drives


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## dixie_flatline (Aug 13, 2011)

All I want to know is... how did he manage to argue against more education when he had two errors with the wrong their/there in two different posts?


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## medichopeful (Aug 13, 2011)

dixie_flatline said:


> All I want to know is... how did he manage to argue against more education when he had two errors with the wrong their/there in two different posts?



It actually seems to go along with him or her!


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## Handsome Robb (Aug 13, 2011)

I think this may be the first post I have ever seen advocating lowering our educations standards...

Lay off the crack pipe? My guess is he/she is enrolled in a program that they will be graduating from after the changeover happens and their program is not accredited...


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## Smash (Aug 13, 2011)

MrBrown said:


> Brown agrees with that Smash fellow
> 
> Brown is dissapointed for Smash that the Melbourne or the Alfred do not allow him to nick at CT machine and tow it behind that Vanbusprinter he drives



I have enough doughnuts every day without adding a Doughnut of Death to them!


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## fortsmithman (Aug 13, 2011)

bajamedic said:


> If we go to socialized health care it will be a 10.00 dollar an hour job.



I thought that's what the wage for EMS is in the USA.  Canadian EMS makes quite a bit more than that.  To be a ALS medic that take 3 years minimum.


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## fast65 (Aug 13, 2011)

dixie_flatline said:


> All I want to know is... how did he manage to argue against more education when he had two errors with the wrong their/there in two different posts?



That was my initial thought as well...but I was willing to overlook it due to the sheer amount of falderal that exists in the original post, and subsequent posts by the OP.


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## beandip4all (Aug 13, 2011)

bajamedic said:


> Allot of departments are going back to volunteers.



:glare:
ahem...  







also, anyone else think OP is just a troll?


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## SanDiegoEmt7 (Aug 13, 2011)

bajamedic said:


> I am amazed at that lack of concern for the severe lack of funding that is right around the corner. You are not going to turn EMS into nursing. It will never pay the big bucks. If we go to socialized health care it will be a 10.00 dollar an hour job. As soon as it interferes with system delivery the fire service will force changes on the local level that will shut down private EMS.



Fire that is supported by tax dollar funded city budgets? When private companies can come in and offer cities free contract, simply giving them the exclusive coverage rights and letting them bill at contracted rates.


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## bajamedic (Aug 13, 2011)

*I don't think any of you have been doing this very long?*

I am not in any P-Programs. I went to P school in 1991. I am not arguing against education, I have more certs than most guys, my bookshelf is full, very full. If you guys want to be doctors, go for it. EMS  has paid and never will pay strong wages. If you guys had been around the last 25 years in the ems trade you would see that. The good companies are gone. Most EMS runs are non paying runs. I am looking at investing in private EMS for retirement and as all owners and investors, I want cheap labor. It is one thing to be FF Medic, more training, more work load. Private medics do about half of what fire service medics do. The scope of practice for EMT-P does not take 2 years to teach and I don't need to know Nursing level A&P.

 My preceptor told me up front, "if you start to struggle with what is being asked of you your gone"  out of 28 guys 6 got past the preceptors, and three of them should have failed but there had private EMS preceptors. Its not the book work, its the on the job 2:30 in the morning MVA with entrapment that needs to be the focus of the training. 
Not some college lecture theory A&P  or the like. It is not the clinical area that is lacking. Nurses wonder why they can't get jobs. Its because the schools don't teach to the job market. When asked to start and IV they can't, WHY BECAUSE THE SPENT MONTHS STUDYING CRAP THEY DON'T USE ON THE JOB, SO THE EMPLOYER CAN'T USE THEM. EMS training needs to go back into the hands of the local EMS boards, and the OJT needs to be the focus.


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## usalsfyre (Aug 13, 2011)

Please get the hell away from EMS. I hope to God you never treat anyone close to me.

I wonder how many patients you've harmed because you don't understand what your doing.


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## Shishkabob (Aug 13, 2011)

bajamedic said:


> It is one thing to be FF Medic, more training, more work load. Private medics do about half of what fire service medics do. The scope of practice for EMT-P does not take 2 years to teach and I don't need to know Nursing level A&P.



You're a regular comedian, baja.    There's not a single FF/medic in California that can do half of what I can on an ambulance.  You're in California.  California, as a whole, sucks in EMS.  Don't compare your crap state with places that actually try to care for their patients and give them good care.



I highly doubt you're a medic, but if you are, I can't wait till you retire.  We don't need people like you in charge of other peoples health.


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## Sasha (Aug 13, 2011)

Didnt Chimpie ask us not to feed the trolls?

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## JPINFV (Aug 13, 2011)

Sasha said:


> Didnt Chimpie ask us not to feed the trolls?
> 
> Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk




It's a lot like feeding squirrels and other small fluffy wild animals. You know you aren't supposed to, but they're so cute that you just can't help yourself.


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## m0nster986 (Aug 13, 2011)

frostbiteEMT said:


> Oh, I almost forgot to add that I really hope that the fire service does NOT fight this. Why? Because, even though I am a firefighter, I believe that to get the recognition as a profession EMS should be totally seperate from the fire service. Again, just my $0.02.



I :wub: you!

As for the OP, "You can't teach an old dog new tricks."


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## crazycajun (Aug 13, 2011)

bajamedic said:


> I am not in any P-Programs. I went to P school in 1991. I am not arguing against education, I have more certs than most guys, my bookshelf is full, very full. If you guys want to be doctors, go for it. EMS  has paid and never will pay strong wages. If you guys had been around the last 25 years in the ems trade you would see that. The good companies are gone. Most EMS runs are non paying runs. I am looking at investing in private EMS for retirement and as all owners and investors, I want cheap labor. It is one thing to be FF Medic, more training, more work load. Private medics do about half of what fire service medics do. The scope of practice for EMT-P does not take 2 years to teach and I don't need to know Nursing level A&P.
> 
> My preceptor told me up front, "if you start to struggle with what is being asked of you your gone"  out of 28 guys 6 got past the preceptors, and three of them should have failed but there had private EMS preceptors. Its not the book work, its the on the job 2:30 in the morning MVA with entrapment that needs to be the focus of the training.
> Not some college lecture theory A&P  or the like. It is not the clinical area that is lacking. Nurses wonder why they can't get jobs. Its because the schools don't teach to the job market. When asked to start and IV they can't, WHY BECAUSE THE SPENT MONTHS STUDYING CRAP THEY DON'T USE ON THE JOB, SO THE EMPLOYER CAN'T USE THEM. EMS training needs to go back into the hands of the local EMS boards, and the OJT needs to be the focus.



UUUmmmmmmm...... You do understand those certificates you made using ARCSoft Certificate Studio do not really mean anything don't you? And yes, I have been in the EMS system for over 25 years. I have made an exceptional living, own my home, have 2 fairly new vehicles, a new motorcycle, a boat, have paid for 2 college educations, have a great retirement coming, make over 60K a year in SOUTH CAROLINA and am currently in school to get my Bachelors Degree in Emergency Medicine. I plan to stay in EMS until they throw me out or bury me and I demand to be transported to the grave in my Ambulance. There is nothing wrong with expanding the required education.


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## AlphaButch (Aug 13, 2011)

If most of your runs are non-pay, you're doing it wrong or your transporting people who don't need transport (look into an agency agreement with a cab company). They may not be paid by the patient, but your agency should be getting paid. If they aren't getting paid, why are you looking at getting into the owner/investor side of this? If they aren't getting paid, it's just a matter of time until a private company makes an unrefusable offer (exclusive, no tax $$).

Paramedic "skills" don't take 2 years to teach, but I don't want someone who can only remember steps 1-10 or has to work out of manual. I want employees who know more than just "how", I want them to understand "why".

Some services may want "monkeys" to simply "load and go", this isn't directed towards any individual, as it's normally agency or contract dictated. A progressive service wants employees that have critical thinking skills, are pro-education and will be able to adapt to the changes on the horizon.

Paramedic practitioner style and "treat and release" style programs are starting to gain recognition in the USA as we move towards becoming a more "socialized" industry (lack of a better term). In order to prepare for actually providing medical care in the field, education standards must be raised. Other than those providers that actively seek to educate themselves, current education standards rarely teach enough for the current "scope" model.


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## medichopeful (Aug 13, 2011)

bajamedic said:


> The scope of practice for EMT-P does not take 2 years to teach and I don't need to know Nursing level A&P.



:rofl:


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## SanDiegoEmt7 (Aug 13, 2011)

bajamedic said:


> Most EMS runs are non paying runs. *I am looking at investing in private EMS for retirement and as all owners and investors, I want cheap labor.* It is one thing to be FF Medic, more training, more work load. Private medics do about half of what fire service medics do. The scope of practice for EMT-P does not take 2 years to teach and I don't need to know Nursing level A&P.



Nursing and medicine have been around for centuries.  Ems is a little over 30 years old.

People like you that want to keep work force education requirements down so that the market is flooded and you can pay your employees horribly and immediately replace anyone as you please are one of the main reasons that stand alone EMS is developing as slowly as it is.  Fire services do twice as much?  Yes they extricate and put liquid on fire, but the majority of the work now-a-days is EMS.  If a fire science degree takes two years, an EMS degree should be equal or greater and MANDATORY (this would be paramedic school).  

No one hear doubts your experience in the field.  But just because you've been doing it the GOOD OLE WAY for two decades doesn't mean its necessary correct and definitely doesn't mean that change isn't good. 

I get the vibe that your pissed you spent so many years at crappy wages in a new developing field and have recently decided you would switch the more lucrative business side, only to have education requirements making that prospect look a little less golden like it has been.


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## fortsmithman (Aug 13, 2011)

bajamedic said:


> EMS  has paid and never will pay strong wages.



Have they paid or not paid strong wages.  In you post you are saying they do and they don't.  Make up your mind please.


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## usalsfyre (Aug 13, 2011)

20 years of experience? Or one year of experience 20 times?


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## Akulahawk (Aug 13, 2011)

My responses in red... and I've snipped stuff out to make it more readable...


bajamedic said:


> I am looking at investing in private EMS for retirement and as all owners and investors, *I want cheap labor*. Then you want minimally trained monkeys. Education = Money. It is one thing to be FF Medic, more training, more work load. *Private medics do about half of what fire service medics do.* Depends upon your point of reference. Private Medics can do ALL the things that a Firefighter can do... they just have to take the appropriate courses and have the appropriate equipment. I doubt they'd want to put water on fire... *The scope of practice for EMT-P does not take 2 years to teach and I don't need to know Nursing level A&P.* Teaching the skills doesn't take very long. Teaching the "why" behind their use does. Before I got into EMS, I was in the field of Sports Medicine. My education took just 5 years start to finish...
> 
> My preceptor told me up front, "if you start to struggle with what is being asked of you your gone"  out of 28 guys 6 got past the preceptors, and three of them should have failed but there had private EMS preceptors. *Its not the book work, its the on the job 2:30 in the morning MVA with entrapment that needs to be the focus of the training. *I did the same stuff... Teach me extrication and give me tools to do it with and I'll cut someone out of a car with the best of them.
> Not some college lecture theory A&P  or the like. It is not the clinical area that is lacking. Nurses wonder why they can't get jobs. Its because the schools don't teach to the job market. When asked to start and IV they can't, WHY BECAUSE THE SPENT MONTHS STUDYING CRAP THEY DON'T USE ON THE JOB, SO THE EMPLOYER CAN'T USE THEM. EMS training needs to go back into the hands of the local EMS boards, and the OJT needs to be the focus.


If you know A&P well you'll know why things are done the way they're done and you'll know how to adapt to changes in things as well as be able to propose some treatment stuff to your OLMC because a patient doesn't fit into your protocols and you know what the problem is...


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## Akulahawk (Aug 13, 2011)

usalsfyre said:


> 20 years of experience? Or one year of experience 20 times?


Could be... Could very well be...


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## MrBrown (Aug 13, 2011)

bajamedic said:


> The scope of practice for EMT-P does not take 2 years to teach and I don't need to know Nursing level A&P.



You sir are a fool.

What do you say to nations like Canada, New Zealand, Australia and the UK who require three to seven years of combined University education and experience to become an ALS Paramedic?


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## terrible one (Aug 13, 2011)

OP I think you are on the wrong forum, try firehouse.com


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## RocketMedic (Aug 14, 2011)

I've got a little over three and a half years of education (non-college for the most part, but still EMS education) invested, and I feel ready for routine stuff, but I am nowhere near being confident in my field. More education cannot hurt.

That being said, I do think we need to examine the 'hows' of expanding education. Keeping a new EMT off of the truck until they've earned a four-year degree isn't going to make a new provider as good as a two-year education and two years of on-the-job training.

I suppose my fear is that if we make a 4-year degree mandatory (example), the financial cost to enter EMS will make it prohibitively expensive for many people. EMS is not a field that you can stop learning in, but it is a field that currently does not compensate us for collegiate-level learning for the most part, and I genuinely do not know if the US health-care system can afford to pay us wages commisurate with our educations. 

I think I understand what Bajamedic is trying to articulate, and although I do not agree, he does raise some quasi-valid concerns. Taking EMS back to the dark days of the 1910s is not a good idea, but can we afford to demand that our employers compensate us for knowledge of things never really 'needed' in EMS before? Obviously, we must get better at our jobs- but how do we go about that as an industry?


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## Hunter (Aug 14, 2011)

SanDiegoEmt7 said:


> So when the influx of 6 month trained paramedics slows down because "My god, two years of paramedic school is a lot of work just so can get that fire job." your amigos working BLS will have more jobs available to them.


:beerchug:



bajamedic said:


> WHAT DEPARTMENTS CAN AFFORD TO SEND A GUY TO SCHOOL FOR 2 YEARS.





adamjh3 said:


> There's a key just to the left of your A key, go ahead and hit that.
> 
> *Why should an agency pay for schooling? In how many other fields does one get a free ride for their education?*
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


 
I'm currently paying for my own Paramedic school. I understand that when angencys change from being fire departments, and ambulance services to Fire+EMS some departments did train their EMT-B/Fire Fighters so that they could keep their job. However I really doubt that this is the case anymore, at least in most departments. How many professions out there do you know that pay for their employees school prior to hiring them? I mean seriously... 



my responses in brown


bajamedic said:


> *we are headed in the wrong direction*.
> 
> More Education is not the wrong direction, you probably think that because you just don't wanna move your #$% to keep up.
> 
> ...


 


Chimpie said:


> Wow, so much of this needs to be pulled apart and debated but I need to head to an appointment. Who wants to do this for me?


 
Erm I'm sure I missed a few points but there you go.




Smash said:


> At the same time the US consistently provides *worse health outcomes for greater cost* than any other developed country who have socialized health care.


This is true and makes me :sad:



MrBrown said:


> Brown agrees with that Smash fellow
> 
> Brown is dissapointed for Smash that the Melbourne or the Alfred do not allow him to nick at CT machine and tow it behind that Vanbusprinter he drives


 

One of our local Fire departments Carries portable handheld X-Rays o.o

here's a picture of one:
http://cfnewsads.thomasnet.com/images/large/543/543462.jpg


my responses in brown


bajamedic said:


> *I am looking at investing in private EMS for retirement and as all owners and investors, I want cheap labor.*
> 
> You're one of those guys who wants to lower wages for EMS and thinks that even though on *occasion* we're incharged of someones life our jobs should be paid no more than the teenager serving fast food at a local McDonalds. Tell you what, since you're getting into the investing into EMS thing head down to the local home depot, pick up a few of the guys standing outside and pay them $1/hr to do our jobs. since from that statement it seems like you care MORE about the money than anything else.
> 
> ...


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## Shishkabob (Aug 14, 2011)

MrBrown said:


> What do you say to nations like Canada, New Zealand, Australia and the UK who require three to seven years of combined University education and experience to become an ALS Paramedic?



That there is no statistical proof of better patient outcomes in those countries :rofl:




SanDiegoEmt7 said:


> Nursing and medicine have been around for centuries.  Ems is a little over 30 years old.



EMS isn't medicine?


Hmph.


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## SanDiegoEmt7 (Aug 14, 2011)

Linuss said:


> EMS isn't medicine?
> 
> 
> Hmph.



I meant to say physicians not medicine as a whole.  We can definitely include ourselves in the field, but I know you agree we have a long way to go organization and education wise.


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## mrklove (Aug 19, 2011)

bajamedic said:


> THANKS TO THE FOOLS AT THE NATIONAL REGISTRY. I HOPE AS MANY STATES AS POSSIBLE OPT OUT OF THE NATIONAL REGISTRY. WE HAVE MEDICS WORKING ON BLS RIGS BECAUSE THEIR ARE NO JOBS. I CAN SEE THE FIRE SERVICE FIGHTING THIS AS IT MAKE NO SENSE. :angry: WHAT DEPARTMENTS CAN AFFORD TO SEND A GUY TO SCHOOL FOR 2 YEARS.




They hate us for our freedoms...


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## mrklove (Aug 19, 2011)

I'll be part of the new generation of late twenty something's working EMT jobs for the foreseeable future in the U.S.. I've read this entire thread and honestly what I will be looking for and participating in is twofold: 

1) drives for major unionisation (new unions or kicking out the old conservative farts who run the current ones) and

2) collectively forcing (via unions and street heat) the state and the federal govt to sign off on single-payer healthcare and/or some variant of socialized healthcare. 

This will help EMT's get livable wages and will rid the healthcare infrastructure of bureaucrats who administer nothing but for-profit schemes for shareholders. In my lifetime I'm going to see to it that this happens.


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## usafmedic45 (Aug 19, 2011)

> Kids can come over here from India and train for 600 hours and go home and fly 737 for a living. American kids need 3 times that.



Look at the safety record of American airlines versus Indian airlines and you'll see why using that argument makes you look like a total moron.  You know....even more so than the rest of your argument.


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## usalsfyre (Aug 19, 2011)

mrklove said:


> I'll be part of the new generation of late twenty something's working EMT jobs for the foreseeable future in the U.S.. I've read this entire thread and honestly what I will be looking for and participating in is twofold:
> 
> 1) drives for major unionisation (new unions or kicking out the old conservative farts who run the current ones) and


And this will help patients, and for that matter providers how? Ask the UAW how well unionization has worked out for them here lately. I for see unions being AGAINST professionalization of EMS, seeing as how this would likely reduce their member pool and the majority of EMTs and Paramedics will have to be dragged kicking and screaming to higher educational standards. Unions tend to want "something for nothing".



mrklove said:


> 2) collectively forcing (via unions and street heat) the state and the federal govt to sign off on single-payer healthcare and/or some variant of socialized healthcare.


WTF is "street heat"? Surely your not advocating riots...



mrklove said:


> This will help EMT's get livable wages and will rid the healthcare infrastructure of bureaucrats who administer nothing but for-profit schemes for shareholders. In my lifetime I'm going to see to it that this happens.


I'm not totally anti-socialized care...but if you think this will magically fix the healthcare problems in the US your delusional.  The full scope of the problem is not "evil for-profit schemes". Similarly it's not "the big bad government and trial lawyers". All of the above are factors, along with the fact that we've been far more focused on "sick care" than "health care" and if you've ever worked in a disadvantaged area you realize there's a good portion of people out there who are literally not smart/educated enough to participate in their own care. Add in the amount of absolutely futile care we provide and the whole things a mess.

Socialized healthcare would likely reimburse worse than what we have now, simply because EMS adds little value to the system.


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## usafmedic45 (Aug 19, 2011)

jpinfv said:


> it's a lot like feeding squirrels and other small fluffy wild animals. You know you aren't supposed to, but they're so cute that you just can't help yourself.


+1.  Lol


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## Cup of Joe (Aug 19, 2011)

I thought the world was supposed to end on the 21st, so it would make sense for that date to be picked...:rofl:


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