# Health and Safety-Are your officers involved?



## medic493 (Apr 7, 2017)

I am an EMS line officer for a fire-based medical response, first responder service. I have found that many states, as well as the NFPA are requiring health and safety activities to become more commonplace. For example, I am required by my state to maintain a policy that reduces risk for injury relating to lifting, moving,etc.

What sorts of training, activities does your department require for injury prevention, and wellness? How supportive are your old salts (your high command, the ancient people, and the old school guys) of fitness requirements? Also, let me know if you are volunteer or paid, and if you are fire based/EMS service based.


----------



## GMCmedic (Apr 7, 2017)

My service just kind of assumes we will be smart about things but doesnt require anything. 

The hospital does provide insurance incentives for lifestyle changes. 


I feel it is also important to note that NFPA doesnt require anything. Following NFPA guidelines is strictly voluntary.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


----------



## medic493 (Apr 7, 2017)

GMCmedic said:


> My service just kind of assumes we will be smart about things but doesnt require anything.
> 
> The hospital does provide insurance incentives for lifestyle changes.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the response, I know that NFPA is voluntary, but many departments treat their guidelines as requirements. Ultimately, once the department mandates members to do something, even if it is based on guidelines, then it is a requirement!

Please elaborate on lifestyle changes? Also, im assuming your hospital is the employer?


----------



## VentMonkey (Apr 7, 2017)

medic115e said:


> I am an EMS line officer for a fire-based medical response, first responder service. I have found that many states, as well as the NFPA are requiring health and safety activities to become more commonplace. For example, I am required by my state to maintain a policy that reduces risk for injury relating to lifting, moving,etc.
> 
> What sorts of training, activities does your department require for injury prevention, and wellness? How supportive are your *old* *salts* (your high command, the *ancient people*, and the old school guys) of fitness requirements? Also, let me know if you are volunteer or paid, and if you are fire based/EMS service based.


A bit of friendly advice on here. Perhaps be a bit kinder with your words, particularly as a relatively new poster. Calling people "ancient", or "old salts" while showing you're whopping 21 years of "life experience" will do nothing for you on this forum.

As far as my agency, I think obvious youth, and younger generations find it easier to devote time and effort into, well, themselves. There's nothing wrong with that, but after 5, 10, 15, 20 years you'd be lucky not to sustain some sort of work-related injury. I'm kind of in the middle of the "ages" in this field, so I can see both sides. I will say it does not get easier the older you get (try having a family, and other "adult-type" responsibilities to tackle, and finding time to self-motivate for exercise).

As far as getting the older generations on board, it really depends. I personally think it has more to do with the individual at hand, and not an age thing. Will power is often innate; some have it, some don't. I'm pretty proud to say that I was able to help get one of my old partners away from nicotine, and a bit more devoted to their personal health. It's little things as well; if it's one word I personally detests it's "_diet_". People misuse this term way too often. A diet is what you make of it, and can quite literally be anything from an "all sugar diet", to an "all protein diet", but my personal favorite (and what I try and abide by) is a _"well-balanced diet"_.

My agency doesn't have any sort of training in plan, so kind of like @GMCmedic it's mostly on the individual themselves to take the initiative. Do I think a wellness program would be good? Honestly again, unless people are truly set on abiding by it I don't know that is would be worth the investment. I could also think of so many more areas in which I would like to see my agency devote it's time and effort; we're EMS only, and not fire-based.


----------



## DesertMedic66 (Apr 7, 2017)

Private ambulance company. The only requirement is an initial physical assessment test. If there is an injury on or off duty that requires time off or light duty that employee will have to pass the physical test again. That is all.


----------



## DrParasite (Apr 7, 2017)

At my old job, we had several of extremely obese medics.  we have little to no agility assessments upon hire.  If OSHA doesn't require it, they don't provide an injury prevention.  no physical fitness requirements.  

At my other job, we were stuck in an ambulance for 12 hours, going on back to back to back calls.  There were also little to no fitness requirements, other than being able to do the job while sustaining minimal time off from work on the job injuries (they were more worried about getting the truck in service than looking after their staff).


----------



## medic493 (Apr 8, 2017)

Just because somebody is old and/or experienced does not mean that this person is adequate to deal with the modern challenges of the job. It doesn't matter that I am 21 (almost 22 by the way), but I have no problem will calling out something that is bad, and does not work.

An example of the old salt problem: Ever heard of the NJ First Aid Council? They are a bunch of old people who advocate for an unlicensed, unregulated EMS system, that allows squads to respond after almost 30 minutes of alerting. Their argument is that they would rather have somebody who is familiar with the town, but unlicensed than somebody who is paid/unpaid and licensed. Why? Because it has always been that way, and mandating licensure would cause inept squads to close as they cannot afford to legitimize themselves by requiring themselves to do "horrible" things like background checks on their members. 

Back to health, and safety: 
My agency has a bunch of guys who are experienced (an older age), and knowledgeable--> full respect given for this. 
My agency has a several members (age 55+)  who have developed various medical conditions like gait dysfunction, arthritis, COPD, diabetes,etc. The department has a minimal health and safety program, and can do very little to prevent a guy who gets winded doing a round of CPR from performing CPR. Similarly, what do you do with a guy who shouldn't be lifting, but lifts anyway? Well, a health and safety program can serve to either eliminate those people, or to wake them up to the fact that they are not up to standard.

My point is that the health and safety ideology is here to prevent situations like the one I have described. We wouldn't have guys doing what they should not do due to health, if we had a more stringent program emphasizing such policy. I asked my question, because I want to hear from people who don't get triggered by ideas. 

Little piece of friendly advice: don't like it, don't read it, and stay away. Culture changes hurt, and just because I am 21 does not mean that I am not capable of being part of a culture change.


----------



## VentMonkey (Apr 8, 2017)

Good luck, I'm sure your arrogance will get you very far.


----------



## NomadicMedic (Apr 8, 2017)

medic115e said:


> Little piece of friendly advice: don't like it, don't read it, and stay away. Culture changes hurt, and just because I am 21 does not mean that I am not capable of being part of a culture change.



This idea, while heartfelt I'm sure, will do more to alienate members of your department faster than almost anything else. 

I'm sure you're full of great ideas and want to change the world, but your biggest detriment is your lack of life experience. I don't believe that tenure is grounds for promotion, I also can't discount the benefit gained from having some years of experience behind you. And I don't specifically mean experience in EMS, although that's a plus too. Being almost 22 doesn't mean anything when you're trying to implement culture change. You simply don't have anough real life experience to be credible. You don't have to change the world today... work in the field for a while. Improve your position in the department. Gain credibility by being the guy who does the right thing. Be morally straight and patient focused. In a few years, you'll be the guy that people look to for ideas on changing the culture, rather than you trying to force it now.


----------



## GMCmedic (Apr 8, 2017)

If youre not winded from 2 minutes if CPR you arent doing it right.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


----------



## medic493 (Apr 11, 2017)

NomadicMedic said:


> This idea, while heartfelt I'm sure, will do more to alienate members of your department faster than almost anything else.
> 
> I'm sure you're full of great ideas and want to change the world, but your biggest detriment is your lack of life experience. I don't believe that tenure is grounds for promotion, I also can't discount the benefit gained from having some years of experience behind you. And I don't specifically mean experience in EMS, although that's a plus too. Being almost 22 doesn't mean anything when you're trying to implement culture change. You simply don't have anough real life experience to be credible. You don't have to change the world today... work in the field for a while. Improve your position in the department. Gain credibility by being the guy who does the right thing. Be morally straight and patient focused. In a few years, you'll be the guy that people look to for ideas on changing the culture, rather than you trying to force it now.


Look while I hear what you are saying, the fact is that I already have changed many operational performance measures,  which have improved patient care. The bottom line is that I do nothing without the support of the chiefs.....Therefore, for me to step back from making improvements would be a waste of time. I don't need to change the world, but I do change elements of a department.

Not to mention, my age is irrelevant to this discussion. I asked about health and safety ideas, and mentioned "old salts", because truth be told, many departments are held back from progress by people living in the 70's who refuse to accept change. I hold credibility because of working experience, as well as the support of my chief officers. In the military, a brand new Lt. outranks a 20 year sergeant. Anyway, I guess since this has become a thread of personal insults, rather than actual working ideas about health and safety programs, then this thread should be locked, or deleted.


----------



## VentMonkey (Apr 11, 2017)

medic493 said:


> Look while I hear what you are saying, the fact is that I already have changed many operational performance measures,  which have improved patient care. The bottom line is that I do nothing without the support of the chiefs.....Therefore, for me to step back from making improvements would be a waste of time. I don't need to change the world, but I do change elements of a department.
> 
> Not to mention, my age is irrelevant to this discussion. I asked about health and safety ideas, and mentioned "old salts", because truth be told, many departments are held back from progress by people living in the 70's who refuse to accept change. I hold credibility because of working experience, as well as the support of my chief officers. In the military, a brand new Lt. outranks a 20 year sergeant. Anyway, I guess since this has become a thread of personal insults, rather than actual working ideas about health and safety programs, then this thread should be locked, or deleted.


Ironically enough I offered you some friendly advice, and you were the one who replied with snark. @NomadicMedic was pretty kind with his words as well. You then felt the need to tell us you're 21 going on 22, further showcasing the very relevant points that "life experience" plays with these sort of affairs.

If you're already making strides with regards to improving the health, and well-being of your particular department good on you. That said, your replies reek of a pompous, and pretentious "know it all" all while not quite having years under you. You asked how it's relevant, well, let's see...maybe for now, sure everything is good on paper, with the chiefs, and even some of the more veteran employees, but what about when you're face dead-on with those that refuse to embrace your change? Do you just get rid of them, disregarding their needs to make ends meat, feed their families, and put their kids through college? That's certainly what your replies seem to have implied thus far; again, arrogance. So yes, you will find people who challenge you from time to time. If you are already calling for your own thread to be closed because of it, I cannot imagine you won't run to your chiefs crying foul because so and so refuses to, or just for whatever other reason can't/ won't abide by your personal agenda, in spite of them being competent, tenured, and much more experienced that yourself.

Also, you got replies from others, including myself regarding your thread topic. What you seem to be missing is that every persons personal agendas are different. You're on an EMS forum, not a health and well-being forum. Do I agree with you that we don't place enough emphasis on our own health, and well-being? Actually, yes I do. Do I think that this sort of program is really a necessity at this time and point within the EMS community? No, or at least it isn't on the top of my "top 10 things in EMS" I would like see changed. I do agree there are culture issues with everything that is to be expected with age differences, and generation gaps. You on the other hand seem to be missing this point entirely; if you weren't you would see I can actually appreciate your point of view.

Let me ask you this (and it is very relevant to your thread topic): let's say you implement a health, and well-being program, but you have a fellow employee, EMT or paramedic. They're clinically on their A-game, well liked and respected by their peers, and just generally carry a large portion of the department on their back. For reasons unbeknownst to you (until finding out perhaps through said program), they cannot lose weight, and their health has deteriorated over the years because of genuinely uncontrollable health issues. Do you just get rid of them because they don't fit into your program?

FWIW, I work out religiously, eat fairly sensible, have maintained a healthy duty weight even after 15 years, and still managed to sustain a debilitating back injury. Oh, and as far as arthritis, and osteoporosis goes, well, guess what? That too comes with age, even after a whopping 36 years with the "grind" this job puts on your body after 15 or so years of service. So let us all know how you plan to remedy that as well? In other words, you sound like you don't even lack the knowledge to fully understand these disorders, disease processes, let alone the aging body itself. So again, how is age_ not relevant_?


----------



## medic493 (Apr 11, 2017)

VentMonkey said:


> Ironically enough I offered you some friendly advice, and you were the one who replied with snark. @NomadicMedic was pretty kind with his words as well. You then felt the need to tell us you're 21 going on 22, further showcasing the very relevant points that "life experience" plays with these sort of affairs.
> 
> If you're already making strides with regards to improving the health, and well-being of your particular department good on you. That said, your replies reek of a pompous, and pretentious "know it all" all while not quite having years under you. You asked how it's relevant, well, let's see...maybe for now, sure everything is good on paper, with the chiefs, and even some of the more veteran employees, but what about when you're face dead-on with those that refuse to embrace your change? Do you just get rid of them, disregarding their needs to make ends meat, feed their families, and put their kids through college? That's certainly what your replies seem to have implied thus far; again, arrogance. So yes, you will find people who challenge you from time to time. If you are already calling for your own thread to be closed because of it, I cannot imagine you won't run to your chiefs crying foul because so and so refuses to, or just for whatever other reason can't/ won't abide by your personal agenda, in spite of them being competent, tenured, and much more experienced that yourself.
> 
> ...



Without the sarcasm, and attitude you ask some fair questions. The intention of a health and safety program is provide members with resources to get help. Many emergency service providers lack time, money, and resources to look into opportunities to improve their health. There are many ways that we can bring help to our own brothers and sisters without throwing them out onto the street. Some departments do mandatory workout sessions, some bring in therapists to teach lifting techniques, some give very discounted gym memberships, and some do nothing about their problems. Let's say I bring a trainer, or therapist, who is a former/current firefighter, and this service provides valuable insight for members about injury prevention with lifting. This does not make me a "know it all", or nor does it alienate any hard working providers. This has all been done, and many departments are happy with the results afforded with these services. There are grants to support these activities, and more importantly there are hoards of people looking for help. If I have a key to the puzzle, why would I run away because of my age? I hope this is enlightening, because certainly I have never been called pretentious, or arrogant. 

Other problems, teaching firefighters that rehab is not for "pussies", as I have been told a myriad of times. There is a camp in every department that hates rehab for fire calls, and another that is religious about it. Through proper education, rehab service can be normalized for firefighters. I'm not going to eliminate osteoporosis, but I just might help a guy with a bad back see a better way of lifting something. 

Honestly though, I feel that questions like, "health has deteriorated over the years because of genuinely uncontrollable health issues", are important. However, you must ask yourself, how do you feel about a person with uncontrollable health issues entering physiologically adverse conditions like burning buildings. Providing firefighters with CISM after stressful calls, and offering general mental health resources is not unheard of either. I have to ask these questions, especially considering that the majority of firefighters/ems providers die from cardiac issues, or mental health issues off-duty. 

So, is a male gynecologist not qualified to treat women? Is a movie critic not allowed to criticize movies because they have not made one themselves? Or is a young EMS provider not qualified to find help for those who need it, or those who think their 15 years of experience is perfect? According to you, the answer is "no", but reality is vastly different.


----------



## VentMonkey (Apr 11, 2017)

Hardly any sarcasm in my posts. I felt it was fairly direct and straightforward, if you read it another way, meh, that's on you.

As far as how I feel about fire personnel focusing their budgets on this sort of thing-

In short, I could care less. I'm not a firefighter, I don't run into burning buildings, nor do I have that desire. Allocating money for a wellness program within the fire service seems, like many other things they allocate for, a waste of tax payer dollars (now that's a thread derail). 

When you apply for these sorts of jobs it's almost assumed you're physically fit, thus all those pre-employment physical fitness exams. If you so choose not to continue down that path, and suffer the consequences like many do, then end up being replaced by the next "young buck" because your knees gave out due to your own choices, well, that is your choice. There's no empathy from me for your own self awareness, and moreover, the repercussions that may result.

If I wanted to impact the masses by seeing that they became physically fit in life I would have become a personal trainer, maybe even a dietitian. Trying to convince people on an EMS forum how the fire service should set aside more money to ensure they "stay fit" is, quite frankly, pitching a sale to the wrong audience in general.


----------



## medic493 (Apr 11, 2017)

VentMonkey said:


> Hardly any sarcasm in my posts. I felt it was fairly direct and straightforward, if you read it another way, meh, that's on you.
> 
> As far as how I feel about fire personnel focusing their budgets on this sort of thing-
> 
> ...


Considering that many paramedics are also paid/volunteer firefighters, and/or a part of a fire-based EMS service, I can't agree. Moreover, the point is to impact a niche environment of EMS providers (many are firefighter/emt or medics), and so this board is hardly the wrong place to discuss this subject.


----------



## VentMonkey (Apr 11, 2017)

medic493 said:


> So, is a male gynecologist not qualified to treat women? Is a movie critic not allowed to criticize movies because they have not made one themselves? Or is a young EMS provider not qualified to find help for those who need it, or those who think their 15 years of experience is perfect? According to you, the answer is "no", but reality is vastly different.


Heh? Again, I said none of this, yet you've interpreted it as such. Meh, ok. I stand by my posts, good luck in life, you have a ton of growing up to do, bud.


----------



## res1551cue (Apr 19, 2017)

OP, I have been on departments that have a "health and safety" division as well as protocols and some that have had a need for them but just do not want to waste the time or money on issues that do not affect the rating of the department. My first department in the application said that I would have to pass a physical. Did I ever do this? No. Should it have been? Maybe. I worked with some guys that could not put on an SCBA without an extension strap to keep it on. Why was it never done? Well because it was a volunteer department and like others have said, it was not mandated by NFPA or OSHA or the State of North Carolina. 

I have also been on departments that got away with mandated health and safety topics such as injury prevention by presenting powerpoint briefings or by having a sports physiologist come in and give everyone a briefing. 

While I understand what you are asking there are a lot of things to take into consideration such as state requirements, volunteer vs. paid, union vs. non-union. With your example maybe the "old salts" as you call them are not on board because there is not much the department cannot do to make them do this. Most times if a company makes a new requirement such as the one you are suggesting, the people who have been on the department for a certain period of time are grandfathered into the new system in hopes that eventually they will retire and allow the "younger" generation to move up while keeping the standards. You cannot just implement something out of nowhere and expect everyone to be on board with the changes or even be up to par. Just as such you cannot fire them just because you made new regulations/standards that they are not able to adhere to because of age, and medical issues. 

As far as your comment about the 20 year old Lt ordering around a 20 year Sgt in the military. While it does happen, that 20 year old Lt will get no respect from anyone with an attitude like that. What that 20 y/o Lt has to understand is that by asking the 20 year Sgt what he thinks is the best course of action would be, will get that 20 y/o Lt more respect and will lead to a better following. A 4-Star general is nothing without his enlisted personnel. **Just something to keep in mind**


----------



## SpecialK (Apr 19, 2017)

The Health and Safety in Employment Act requires employers to identify, eliminate or minimise hazards.  All employers must demonstrate they have systems and processes in place for this and are audited randomly by WorkSafe.  Being in breach of the HSE Act is a serious offence which can carry significant fines or even prosecution.

For example protective clothing, high visibility jerkins, steel cap footwear, appropriate lifting equipment, design of equipment and packs, vehicle layout, not entering scenes which may be dangerous, de-escalation training, to the more mundane things like making sure you put a wet floor sign out when you mop the floor on-station and pretty much everything in-between.

There is not (yet) a physical fitness test beyond a very basic one when first recruited.  This has been a work in progress for a very long time.  You are now required to get a note from your GP stating you meet the requirements for the commercial vehicle license classes, not that this is actually required but the medical requirements are slightly stricter.

In Australia it is a requirement for comprehensive fitness and medical testing before you are even accepted onto the degree, and again when you apply to the ambulance service.  I think this is a much better way of doing things personally.


----------

