# CONTOMS vs. Other TacMed Programs



## DisasterMedTech

I really want to get my EMT-T. I dont know much about CONTOMS including how I go about applying or if I need to wait until I enlist (USPHS) to take the course.  I would appreciate any and all input.  Its not necessarily the CUF training that I am interested in (though I would like to have that under my belt) as it is the higher speed EMS training that will help make me a better BLS Specialist.  Right now I am an EMT-B/BLSS with IMERT, IL-Task Force 1 (Urban Search and Rescue) and the Illinois Terrorism Task Force.  IMERT supplies the medical teams for the other two.  The ITTF is where I really feel like EMT-T would be a good thing to have. If anyone knows the best place to go if I dont get into CONTOMS...again, I would greatly appreciate it.  Feel free to PM me. Also, if I get my EMT-T, I have the chance to work with a private security contractor who is in charge of guarding most of the Section 8 Federal housing in Northern IL, so learning to handle a MP-5 and Springfield XD or equivalent wouldnt be a bad thing.

Feel free to pile on the info.

How Copy?


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## Luno

Last I checked, you needed to have Active Law Enforcement sponsorship...  Also, you're mistaken, it's not the higher speed EMS training that makes you the better BLS provider, it's the solid core of BLS skills that make you more proficient in "higher speed" situations.  Also, CONTOMS and most Tac Med courses (including the ones I taught) don't teach you how to shoot, that should be learned before you try to become "tactical."  There is a finite amount of time to teach you how to treat under fire, as well as teach you what to look for, as well as some basics tactics, it's not a substitute for the 40hr SWAT basic.  Quick piece of advice, learn how to handle a weapon first, then move to tac-med, it's no place to be learning trigger and muzzle control while you're working on a patient.  Also, there is not substitute for CONTOMS as their graduates and their graduates alone are considered EMT (T).


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## DisasterMedTech

Luno said:


> Last I checked, you needed to have Active Law Enforcement sponsorship...  Also, you're mistaken, it's not the higher speed EMS training that makes you the better BLS provider, it's the solid core of BLS skills that make you more proficient in "higher speed" situations.  Also, CONTOMS and most Tac Med courses (including the ones I taught) don't teach you how to shoot, that should be learned before you try to become "tactical."  There is a finite amount of time to teach you how to treat under fire, as well as teach you what to look for, as well as some basics tactics, it's not a substitute for the 40hr SWAT basic.  Quick piece of advice, learn how to handle a weapon first, then move to tac-med, it's no place to be learning trigger and muzzle control while you're working on a patient.  Also, there is not substitute for CONTOMS as their graduates and their graduates alone are considered EMT (T).



Actually thats not entirely true. There are programs which copy CONTOMS exactly and are certified to offer the EMT-T title. Also, since I am a member of a team that provides the medical asset for a state terrorism task force, i meet the quals to participate. And there are lots of programs that teach tactical weapons use during their program. Some of your info seems a little out of date.


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## Luno

*Emt-t*



DisasterMedTech said:


> Actually thats not entirely true. There are programs which copy CONTOMS exactly and are certified to offer the EMT-T title. Also, since I am a member of a team that provides the medical asset for a state terrorism task force, i meet the quals to participate. And there are lots of programs that teach tactical weapons use during their program. Some of your info seems a little out of date.



Actually, you should probably review exactly what they state, EMT-Tactical designates a CONTOMS graduate, it would be nice if it included all the fine tactical medical programs out there, but it doesn't, its reserved for graduates of the Counter Narcotics and Terrorism Operational Medical Support, which is a course that is offered by Federal Protective Services, Protective Medicine Branch.  I would definitely be interested in which courses claim to offer identical courses AND the same title.  There is a difference between a Tactical Medic, and an EMT-T.   

And there is an enormous difference between basic tactical weapons use, and effective tactics.  While ISTM does offer basic weapons familiarization, don't kid yourself, it does not prepare you in any way, shape or form for the weapon familiarization that you will need to effectively be a member of a tactical team.  Also, I would draw your attention to their requirements for Advanced Tactics and Medicine course, which includes "There is a high expectation by the range instructors for surgical precision shooting by all students."  This is not the environment to be learning how to fire a weapon, this is the environment to combine prior knowledge and skills.  Here's a quick little cheat sheet for some providers of TEMS training, and remember, most will take your money, but what will you take in exchange?

http://www.tems.org/training/information.html


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## DisasterMedTech

CONTOMS doesnt own the designation EMT-T anymore than anyone owns EMT-B. And if you need to deploy your weapon with surgical precision, you AND your team have a problem cause if it gets down do the teams medic having to throw lead down range...you have a bigger problem than CONTOMS thinking they own the title EMT-T. TacMeds are not there as an extra gun, which alot of them seem to think. They carry weapons for the sole and exclusive purpose of defending themselves. Unless they are also SWAT, they should not even be entering the residence, etc until the rest of the team has cleared it.

Ive talked to a friend who is a medic in Iraq as we speak. He has been through CONTOMS and most of the other programs out there. He says not only are there gaping holes in the CONTOMS training, its not even close to the best program out there. CONTOMS teaches medics to shoot. The other programs teach tactical medicine and teach the medic what to do if he needs to shoot. If you go to a school where EMTs are being trained to be part of an entry team, you know your in the wrong place. 

As for firearms, Im not familiar with the MP-5 (to any great extent) or the other weapons used by tac teams. However, I have been shooting competatively with a .50cal at ranges of 300, 500 and 1000 yards for about 15 years.

The reason CONTOMS is so popular is the name, plain and simple. When I said I wanted to train high speed I meant the thinking quickly, assessing and moving on.


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## DisasterMedTech

After some research on FPS, I found that they have been absorbed by the US General Services Agency, which I believe also administers the Diplomatic Security Service.

Im gonna say here that I dont know all there is to know about CONTOMS/Protective Medicine except to know that they dont own the term, or at least no where on their web site that I could find do they say they do. The service I will be training with follows CONTOMS exactly and keeps up with all of the protocol changes.

I would like to continue this in a more civil fashion in PM. I have a feeling I could learn from you and you might even be able to help me achieve some goals.

I apologize for my tone in this and other posts to other individuals. Having some personal problems with a serious family illness now and my frustration is coming in my posts.  Again I apologize.


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## Luno

Taken to PM


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## Tactical Medic

There are lots of programs that teach "tactical medicine"  I been to 3 different ones, and for the most part they are all the same...  Here in Florida there is no EMT-T I'm sure many states don't have one either 

Many agencys use the tactical medic just as an on scene medical provider, and your right, if you need an extra gun then don't use the EMT-T, get more people on your squad.  The EMT-T is there for the team, anyone else is secondary, he/she should only use their weapon to protect themselves or a teammate,  and not make a collar


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## Zephyr

*FPS, GSA, DSS, ICE, DHS, ABC, XYZ, and other alphabet soup agencies*

FPS is part of ICE, which is a component of DHS, and protects federal assets to include those falling under GSA's purview, and other assets.  DSS falls within the Department of State.  Their missions are somewhat different.



DisasterMedTech said:


> After some research on FPS, I found that they have been absorbed by the US General Services Agency, which I believe also administers the Diplomatic Security Service.
> 
> Im gonna say here that I dont know all there is to know about CONTOMS/Protective Medicine except to know that they dont own the term, or at least no where on their web site that I could find do they say they do. The service I will be training with follows CONTOMS exactly and keeps up with all of the protocol changes.
> 
> I would like to continue this in a more civil fashion in PM. I have a feeling I could learn from you and you might even be able to help me achieve some goals.
> 
> I apologize for my tone in this and other posts to other individuals. Having some personal problems with a serious family illness now and my frustration is coming in my posts.  Again I apologize.


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## cfrench

""Ive talked to a friend who is a medic in Iraq as we speak. He has been through CONTOMS and most of the other programs out there. He says not only are there gaping holes in the CONTOMS training, its not even close to the best program out there. CONTOMS teaches medics to shoot. The other programs teach tactical medicine and teach the medic what to do if he needs to shoot. If you go to a school where EMTs are being trained to be part of an entry team, you know your in the wrong place."" 

Got that a bit backwards there. CONTOMS does (did) not teach any trigger time. They do teach some tactical movement and some other related topics but most of the course was all medicine. There are good programs and lots of fly by night programs. Take your time researching.
A shame to lose CONTOMS, Hopefully they can come back online.


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## sandboxmedic

Theres a lot of talk here about CONTOMS, but, as far as training goes 2 good schools are H&K, and Blackwater USA. we usually hit them all though (free fun school on the agency bill). I just got wind of a great tac-med school in las vegas im hoping to attend, taught by former JSOC/SEAL medics to include live fire AND live tissue drills. So, forget that Rescue Randy BS, clear a room, fix an active bleed, surgical cric, its a full spectrum program. Judging by the instructors, I bet that would fill any holes left out by CONTOMS. Waiting to hear back.


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## cfrench

When my agency was looking to send the two of us to school they were clear they did not want us to go to some 'class b' program. At the time HK was just shutting down their operation and the Docs were setting it up in Palm Springs. Most of the LEOs on the group had taken SWAT 2 at Blackwater so that was going to be an easy sell. What made my final decision among the three programs was I and my other TEMS guy are non sworn members (non carrying). Our job was TEMS and nothing more. CONTOMS was JUST medicine, no trigger pulling. Now, both us shoot as a hobby so the thought of hundreds of rounds on the agencies dime was cool but that was not our job and I figured it was incumbent on me to get the best medicine program I could get. Another issue was I did not see too much value in getting highly familiar and significant muscle memory on weapons our agency did not carry. I do work with the weapons we have in service to maintain reasonable muscle memory in case the SHTF at an incident. Both programs sound top rate and maybe I can talk the agency to send us to Blackwater for fun. The new school you are talking about sounds like it might work pretty good though and I would like to hear more as we are looking into expanding our TEMS unit as we regionalize.


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## cfrench

Let me add to my post to clarify.

You obviously need lots more than medicine as it is being used in a tactical enviroment that can and does go to H#*L immediatly. I was talking about programs that show me how to integrate the medicine that I had better be competant at into an active tactical enviroment. I still think CONTOMS excelled at that without taking precious training hours on the range. I learned a lot from the staff there and I really hope it can be resurected for future TEMS people. 

FWIW
In my team we are deployed with containment teams on the immediate perimeter. Our insertion is either urban by vans to the area or in a rural enviroment often times through the woods to the target house.


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## sandboxmedic

For non-sworn, non carrying members you should still be as proficient with the weapons as your teammates are.Whether M-4, UMP 45, SL-6, less than lethal, whatever. I "moonlight" with a team when im home as Tac-med as well. You should be up on all the weapons, what happens if an officer gets hit and the threat is coming at you? throwing an IV bag doesnt work ( lol). WE trained extensively on officer down situations, threat assessment,extraction ,treatment,  and usually when i was seting up training, i have someone get really sucked into treating a wound(s) and then make them have to stop, pick up the officers weapon, and return fire accurately-combat reload,back to patient. Doing this while in a gas mask, under stress, low light, and moving targets will hone those skills to par. 
If you really want to step up the game, start "out-shooting" the officers on the range, thats what we strive for. It proves for a fun, competitive, atmosphere and when they see you can handle yourself in a critical situation especially between tac-medicine and neutralizing a threat you'll gain more respect= team unity


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## sandboxmedic

forgot to add this :

Since most decent programs include the " Shoot-move-Communicate", it'll be good to have those skills while honing the medic aspect, especially during the live evolutions. Last i checked H&K joined with Blackwater and they have other programs up.  I also believe theres a new tac-med deal but not sure. Even if your down here if you cant obtain an M-4, MP5, UMP .45 etc the armory has more than enough toys to go around, including rounds( $small fee)
ive spent a lot of time at BW over the past 8 years.


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## cfrench

When HK dropped TEMS training the instructors formed ISTM 
http://www.tacticalmedicine.com/

They stayed in the Palm Springs location that HK used but not the east coast location. I agree that tems people need to be proficient with the weapons thier team uses for the SHTF situations as you mention. I would not mind heading to Blackwater for some time there. Gotta get that grant  done 


We are having issues getting enough range time due to lack of spare weapons. Our service is changing weapons and that will open up more for us to use and stay proficient with.

Hope you are staying safe in the Sandbox. Hopefully you rotate home soon for a break.
Carl


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