# What's wrong with this picture?



## Chimpie (Jan 15, 2006)

Sometimes with volly depts you may respond to medical assists with what you are wearing.  But sometimes this just goes too far.

Now I will say that this dept really is a great dept but this picture just made me laugh.


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## Lisa (Jan 15, 2006)

Iv'e seen worse around here!! Just two weeks ago we had a MVC and one of our First Responders showed up in her tweety bird pajama pants...in the middle of the day!! Volly or not.....I still take time to put on a pair of jeans!!


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## Stevo (Jan 15, 2006)

i don't see much wrong in what's worn there....

~S~


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## rescuecpt (Jan 15, 2006)

Stevo said:
			
		

> i don't see much wrong in what's worn there....
> 
> ~S~



Well, you've got providers in shorts & tees - not a very good use of PPE...


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## Stevo (Jan 15, 2006)

True.

but isn't PPE pertinent to the task at hand?

all i see are people standing around....

~S~


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## Jon (Jan 15, 2006)

rescuecpt said:
			
		

> Well, you've got providers in shorts & tees - not a very good use of PPE...


It also appears to be a "nice day" warm, if not hot... and no one has full PPE on.

I do agree that Shorts are usually inapropriate on ambulances... but not always.

T-shirts - so long as they don't say 'offensive' things (Like: Save a Strecher, Ride an EMT)... t shirts are cool, espicially in a vollie service.


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## MedicPrincess (Jan 15, 2006)

I guess it depends on what their SOP's state.  The guy in shorts/Tshirt and helmet perhaps should rethink which piece of equipment he is going to wear.

Our SOP's at the FD, for an MVA were a MINIMUM of bunker pants/boots/helmet.  And with everything, the situation/location/task we were doing determined what other pieces were worn.

Hot or not, nice day or cold, if your standing there in shorts/tshirt and an unattentive motorist who is to busy checking out the accident runs you down, your pretty well screwd.  At least with the bunker pants and helmet it provides an additional level of protection.


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## Stevo (Jan 15, 2006)

yes well, i suppose they'd be rather screwed if hit by a _meteor_ too, but i still see nothing wrongfully done there Princess

~S~


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## nyc.ems (Jan 15, 2006)

First thing first...that helmet has got to go.Helmets protect,yes,but not on an open road mva.Maybe if the vehicle drove into a building then maybe consider it.Shorts and shirts that are not uniform,my opinion,shouldn't be worn,unless your undercover ems tactical...h34r:


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## Stevo (Jan 15, 2006)

so us _'vollies'_ are undercover nyc.ems?

now i feel downright sneeky....


~S~


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## nyc.ems (Jan 15, 2006)

Not really...but vollie or not we need proper uniform seperating us from the rest....h34r:


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## Stevo (Jan 15, 2006)

why nyc.ems ?


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## nyc.ems (Jan 15, 2006)

well for starters in an mva there are too many people on scene,fire,police,ems,esu,captains,etc....and if were in plain clothes they wouldnt think were civilian getting in the way...something similair happened to my partner...


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## TTLWHKR (Jan 15, 2006)

Looks okay to me. Except the young kid, I'm against youth personnel on emergency scenes.

And I don't agree w/ full TOG on every scene. You don't need TOG for a motorcycle accident. Think jump suits.


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## CaptainPanic (Jan 15, 2006)

Ya know that helmet aint gonna do much good except maybe if a bird pooped on his head but thats about it.... :roflmao:

-CP


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## nyc.ems (Jan 15, 2006)

yea that melmet had me laughing....


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## almostglue (Jan 15, 2006)

TTLWHKR said:
			
		

> Looks okay to me. Except the young kid, I'm against youth personnel on emergency scenes.
> 
> And I don't agree w/ full TOG on every scene. You don't need TOG for a motorcycle accident. Think jump suits.



What does that mean?  If the National Registry (or your state) says people passed their certifications and can be EMTs at the age of 18, what's wrong with that?  If they're EMTs it doesn't matter what age they are...  Unless you're referring to uncertified youngsters, in which case I don't want uncertified old fart's on scene either...  Yeah, a lot can be said for older experienced medics, but you have to start somewhere and that doesn't happen by keeping newbies off scene.  Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean???  

But as for the shorts... I don't think shorts should be allowed.  The fireboys we work with can wear their uniform shorts on duty, but for ANY accident scene they have to put on their turnout pants.  If they were wearing uniform pants they can just wear those and not the turnouts.  Think about it... if you lean down to help someone and stick your knee in a pile of glass, gasoline, sheared metal, whatever... that's gonna be serious for you.  I think protection is warranted motorcycles or not.  Any road way scene has a lot of debris and I, for one, want at least some layer of protection from that.  But that's just me.


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## rescuecpt (Jan 15, 2006)

MVA's and other traumas tend to have many opportunities for an EMS worker to cut themself and/or get a patient's blood on them - an extra layer, even if it is just cotton coveralls, can help prevent injury and infectious disease spread.


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## Phridae (Jan 16, 2006)

At least they're wearing gloves?

We have a dress code for vollies here. No shorts, no sandles, and no clothes with holes (save those for sunday) or stains. Look as professional as you can in street clothes.


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## emtI (Jan 16, 2006)

That kid in the fire helmet doesn't look old enough to drive, let alone be an EMT.


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## Stevo (Jan 16, 2006)

alrighty then....

we've the issue of _identification_

the issue of _professional apperance_

the issue of _PPE_

and the issue of _youth_

perhaps where i am differs from the urban arena in that (aside from the newbies) i know every emt in a 20 mile radius, and they know me. 

inasmuch as i have noted that a uniform (i do have dress blues, bunker gear, jumpsuits, etc) do tend to grant a responding entity an aura of authority, it really is the fetish of authoritarians whom dwell on this detail.

the kids whom got picked last at the ball games whom find the draw of the _clic and comadraie_ all the bling bling & cha cha gains them are, imho, the very same sorts whom lack compassion in the field

they're the ones with the biggest red lights on their personal vehicles, ever eager to have that stork or lifesaving pin strategically placed on their uniform, and are generally full of themselves because they joined to feed their frail egos, not to help people.

they are, imho, _emsnazis_

in the rural game, the closest emt makes the save if there is one to be had, mostly we will respond as is.  people accept us as is, we identify ourselves to them , and that has always been ok here.

as to PPE, sure , there is a place for it on MVA's etc.  But lets face it, most garden variety medical emergencies need nothing more than a pair of gloves.  Now having been a minion of the state's IC, lectured by none other than Kate West & co i can honestly say that safety is big biz here.

If in fact there were enough avarian excrement incidents, all those helmets would then need to pass Ansi standards , our ever willing osha oversight would then have an excuse to launch another 90 pages of federal register at us, and the associated safety parasities would then create the subsequent protocalls to drain your local funding (as well as your time) pursuant to the specture of deadly avarian excrement on scene...

because that's the way it works folks.....

as to youth, well ems is a young persons (note i didn't say man, i'm just _soooo_ PC this a.m.) game.  And while nothing tends to look more ridiculous than some doogey houser newbie dressed to the nines , looking like s/he stold his/her daddy's uniform i do have to inform the _'old farts'_ here that they are going to blow our doors off sooner or later

look at it this way, someone held our hand when we started right? Let them take the riens and captain ems as it should be, without the _glitter-ems_ menatlity

~S~


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## Chimpie (Jan 16, 2006)

emtI said:
			
		

> That kid in the fire helmet doesn't look old enough to drive, let alone be an EMT.


No one said he was an EMT.  Most likely he's a MFR.


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## Phridae (Jan 16, 2006)

emtI said:
			
		

> That kid in the fire helmet doesn't look old enough to drive, let alone be an EMT.



See, I think he does look old enough.
Young, but over 18.


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## rescuecpt (Jan 16, 2006)

TTLWHKR said:
			
		

> Except the young kid, I'm against youth personnel on emergency scenes.



At the ambulance corps we have a youth squad.  They are all trained in first aid, CPR, and all of the skills taught in NYS EMT class (taught in house by our own instructors) but are not yet EMTs because they are 16 or 17.  Not every youth squad member is allowed to ride on the ambulance, they are hand picked for skill, maturity, and ability to function as a team member.  I think right now we have 9 of 40 youth squadders actually riding.  They ride with assigned crews and work as part of the team - of course, they never ride without an EMT, and they only perform functions under direct supervision and only the most basic skills, but they provide a valuable pair of extra hands, and they receive invaluable experience and field training that will only make them better EMTs in the future.

I agree that it may not be appropriate to have youth squad members on every call, and that is up to their crew to decide.  I have kept my youth squad members off the rig when going to cardiac arrests and other calls that might be too traumatic.  But hey, almost every MVA needs traffic control and they make great road blocks until PD arrives (hehehe).


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## FFEMT1764 (Jan 16, 2006)

My big concern is that the kid with the helemt on isnt wearing anything refelctive...even in the daytime we ALL need to be wearing dodge'em vests or turnouts...I would prefer someone seeing my orange very vs hitting me and saying I didnt see him stainding there...but thats me...and on our FD people show up in PJ's and bedroom shoes  on, but at a wreck its UNDER there turnouts...I dont want to get blood, etc on me unless I have no other choice.


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## bravofoxtrot (Jan 16, 2006)

Nice picture though.


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## Flight-LP (Jan 16, 2006)

FFEMT1764 said:
			
		

> My big concern is that the kid with the helemt on isnt wearing anything refelctive...even in the daytime we ALL need to be wearing dodge'em vests or turnouts...I would prefer someone seeing my orange very vs hitting me and saying I didnt see him stainding there...but thats me...and on our FD people show up in PJ's and bedroom shoes  on, but at a wreck its UNDER there turnouts...I dont want to get blood, etc on me unless I have no other choice.



Considering the patrol car, multiple motorcycles, multiple personnel, and the fact they are off the road, I really do not think it matters what they wear. If someone is going to plow them over, the pretty orange reflection isn't going to save them................


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## Chimpie (Jan 16, 2006)

Since everyone is sideline quarterbacking here with limited information, here is a link to the background of the call and additional pictures.

Remember this is a rural area that is served by a volunteer dept.

Clicky


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## Phridae (Jan 16, 2006)

Chimpie said:
			
		

> Since everyone is sideline quarterbacking here with limited information, here is a link to the background of the call and additional pictures.
> 
> Remember this is a rural area that is served by a volunteer dept.
> 
> Clicky



Okay. Rural volly squad. 4 patients. Its completely okay for them to be wearing shorts and tee shirts.  For a rural squad like that to have 4 patiends, people come out of the wood work. They were probably working outside on their lawns or doing other chores.

As for the 'kid' I doubt he's under 18.  He may be new, but he's an adult.


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## TTLWHKR (Jan 16, 2006)

> Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean???


 



Maybe...........


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## TTLWHKR (Jan 16, 2006)

rescuecpt said:
			
		

> At the ambulance corps we have a youth squad. They are all trained in first aid, CPR, and all of the skills taught in NYS EMT class (taught in house by our own instructors) but are not yet EMTs because they are 16 or 17. Not every youth squad member is allowed to ride on the ambulance, they are hand picked for skill, maturity, and ability to function as a team member. I think right now we have 9 of 40 youth squadders actually riding. They ride with assigned crews and work as part of the team - of course, they never ride without an EMT, and they only perform functions under direct supervision and only the most basic skills, but they provide a valuable pair of extra hands, and they receive invaluable experience and field training that will only make them better EMTs in the future.
> 
> I agree that it may not be appropriate to have youth squad members on every call, and that is up to their crew to decide. I have kept my youth squad members off the rig when going to cardiac arrests and other calls that might be too traumatic. But hey, almost every MVA needs traffic control and they make great road blocks until PD arrives (hehehe).


 


"Youth Personnel" aka Junior Firemen. Can't legally do anything, just takes up a seat for someone else.


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## Stevo (Jan 16, 2006)

bravo Michelle

perhaps the only thing 'wrong' with this pix(s) really boils down to _our_ perception of it

~S~


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## CaptainPanic (Jan 17, 2006)

Maybe I should try showing up on-scene in bright pink camo and labrador house shoes eh?

Actually if I were a volly squad person, Id always have on clothes suitable for working MVAs. and Id have a squad shirt/jacket with me at all times in my vehicle as well as PPE. Sure Id never get to wear sandals much but at least I know Im prepared and wont lose a toe over it.

And I wear pants all the time anyway - I cant remember the last time I wore shorts. 

As for lack of personel having PPE there are grants and load FDs can use to ensure that their personel are adequately protected.

-CP


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## rescuecpt (Jan 17, 2006)

TTLWHKR said:
			
		

> "Youth Personnel" aka Junior Firemen. Can't legally do anything, just takes up a seat for someone else.



They can open hydrants, stretch hose, pack hose, and in certain states, be an exterior firefighter (on a line).  If the department is set up properly, they can be very helpful - but they should never "take" a seat from a qualified interior firefighter - especially not on a first or second due truck.  But that's an officer's problem, not the youth personnel's problem - there should be someone telling them "nope, hop off - you're on the next truck".  That's what a Company officer's job is.


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## Stevo (Jan 17, 2006)

many times i'm in construction garb myself, carharts, steel toes, etc. 

it's actually better protection than most uniforms

that said, anyone whom shows up on similar scenes with less than what would be deemed appropriate 'action area' threads can be the scribe, the gopher, the LZ or Med Con communicator , or just grab a neon vest out of the rig and do traffic control ....in fact they could just stand in one spot and be IC _(there's where your bright pink camo would fly Capt!)_

what you have to understand here is that most vollie squads have to make do , or do without

i've rolled on mva/code in progress alone, used bystanders , off duty RN's, visiting nurses etc, so have many of my mates

i don't advocate doing _everything with nothing_ , but then again i don't get anal about details that are basically fodder for beuracratic blowhards

~S~


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## CaptainPanic (Jan 17, 2006)

I have an uncle who is chief of a rural volly squad, he had applied for grants and loans to buy proper working equipment as well as PPE for all squad members. There are several "junior" members on his squad but they are used for setting up hoses, communications, etc. Occassionally they will get to do some brush fire work if there is a need for more personnel, but only if he thinks they are capable of handling it properly. But thats about it. the older certified, experienced crew members get to do alot more such as MVAs, structure fires, etc. And I can see why. There is really no sense in paying money to send someone to train and become certified if they are not capable of handling it. He wants to see if the junior members that come through really will stick with FF before he shells dept. money out to have them certified. Makes alot of sense.

Also - he expects everyone on his squad to show up in full turn-outs on every call. He tells them - especially younger members that he used dept money for the PPE and they had dang well better get used.

Because he is a poultry farmer for a living alot of times he will respond in chicken garb which is fine - who said FF was a clean job? At least he is well protected and well prepared.

-CP


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## TTLWHKR (Jan 18, 2006)

CaptainPanic said:
			
		

> Maybe I should try showing up on-scene in bright pink camo and labrador house shoes eh?
> 
> CP


 

I've seen worse. College graduation, MVA in front of the bar, 27 drunk, spaced out medics looking at the scene from the sidewalk in front of the theme bar. The theme was costumes, the costumes we chose were everyone come as a stripper nurse. :blush:


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## Stevo (Jan 18, 2006)

well, i can think of a few frequent flyers that'd get a kick outta a _'stripper nurse'_ wacker....

~St(E.O.E.)vo~


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## rescuecpt (Jan 18, 2006)

TTLWHKR said:
			
		

> I've seen worse. College graduation, MVA in front of the bar, 27 drunk, spaced out medics looking at the scene from the sidewalk in front of the theme bar. The theme was costumes, the costumes we chose were everyone come as a stripper nurse. :blush:



I hope none of those 27 went anywhere near the patients...


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## TTLWHKR (Jan 19, 2006)

rescuecpt said:
			
		

> I hope none of those 27 went anywhere near the patients...


 
Must you be so critical?


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## TTLWHKR (Jan 19, 2006)

rescuecpt said:
			
		

> I hope none of those 27 went anywhere near the patients...


 

*looking at the scene from the sidewalk*


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## rescuecpt (Jan 19, 2006)

TTLWHKR said:
			
		

> Must you be so critical?



Hmmm, I don't think I'm being "critical" so much as hopeful that none of those "27 drunk, spaced out medics" would be so stupid as to try to touch a patient... forget about lawsuits and losing certs but for the patient's sake.  I've had to deal with the problem of drunk EMTs first hand, it's no laughing matter, so excuse me for being "critical".


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## SmokinGun911 (Jan 19, 2006)

*I'm sure we've all been on scenes where proper protective clothing was absent on one or more of our responders.

I have this image seared in my memory of one of my guys - yeah, one of MY guys - in shorts, tank top and SANDALS operating the hydraulic tools trying to extricate a woman who had perished in an MVC. No sense of urgency at all and I should have stopped it, but I was shorthanded and busy managing two inbound aircraft and the rest of the chaos. 

I will remember that for the rest of my career. Even though I spoke to him afterward, it was something I should have attended to at that moment.*


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## CaptainPanic (Jan 19, 2006)

that couldve been bad for you if he had gotten hurt.

I know this does NOT come from experience BUT I wouldve said OK you go direct traffic while this person in full PPE cuts.

But I can see where you would already feel overwhelmed with two incoming aircraft and being shorthanded.

As I said before - I would make sure I myself was always prepared for the extremes being on volly squad and being on call 24/7/365. At least carry the bunker gear in your POV or always have it at the station if you ride an engine on all calls.

Just my opinion.


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## rescuecpt (Jan 19, 2006)

CaptainPanic said:
			
		

> As I said before - I would make sure I myself was always prepared for the extremes being on volly squad and being on call 24/7/365. At least carry the bunker gear in your POV or always have it at the station if you ride an engine on all calls.



Ideal, but sometimes difficult.  For example, my former FD only allowed officers to take their turnout gear home with them.  But, if you were passing a scene on the way to the firehouse, you were allowed to stop- if you were a member, this means without gear.  Also, as an officer, a couple times we received calls when I was not with my gear - for example when I was out running, or if I happened to be in someone else's car, or at the beach when the alarm went off for an MVA at the beach... it happens.  But trying to always be prepared and/or have a backup plan is a smart idea.


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## SmokinGun911 (Jan 19, 2006)

*You're right, Capt'n Panic. It could have gone badly for me and he. Got lucky that time.

BTW - I love the avatar! Is that from the country trade publication add that said, 'Thanks country radio for not playing my records' or from the Live At San Quentin LP cover? *


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## TTLWHKR (Jan 20, 2006)

rescuecpt said:
			
		

> Hmmm, I don't think I'm being "critical" so much as hopeful that none of those "27 drunk, spaced out medics" would be so stupid as to try to touch a patient... forget about lawsuits and losing certs but for the patient's sake. I've had to deal with the problem of drunk EMTs first hand, it's no laughing matter, so excuse me for being "critical".


 
Says right there, looking from the sidewalk..


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## squid (Jan 20, 2006)

Should you treat it as an MVA response if when you get there, there's no one in a car and you're only working off the roadway? That's a real question -- I'm not saying it's the case in the photo there, but it got me thinking.


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## TTLWHKR (Jan 20, 2006)

Well, if it was easy for a motorcycle to get there, it should just as easy for a car to get there. But bunker gear isn't going to protect you when stuck by a vehicle. I doubt they moved the bikes, as most troopers would frown on that, so I'd say they must be kind of close to the roadway.


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## Stevo (Jan 20, 2006)

i went to a call once on my bike...

~S~


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## Anomalous (Jan 20, 2006)

How about a full code in a tuxedo?


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## Wingnut (Jan 20, 2006)

Anomalous said:
			
		

> How about a full code in a tuxedo?


 
Sexy! 

[[[[[


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## Stevo (Jan 21, 2006)

> How about a full code in a tuxedo?


sure, when limo's have red lights


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## coloradoemt (Jan 21, 2006)

Stevo said:
			
		

> sure, when limo's have red lights


 
That is very easily arranged...


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## emtff99 (Jan 21, 2006)

What is with the guy & the clipboard? Looks like he is ready to clock the Pt in the far left side of the photo.


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## Stevo (Jan 21, 2006)

oh he responded from Reliable Office supply, an opportunity for them to show the public that certain stationary can double as immobilization equipment...

perhaps he'll staple a laceration or two?

~S~


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## TTLWHKR (Jan 22, 2006)

emtff99 said:
			
		

> What is with the guy & the clipboard? Looks like he is ready to clock the Pt in the far left side of the photo.


 
He looks like he is trying to "grab air" while standing up.. we all do it. The occasional arm flail while standing, etc.


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