# Think you know what a Maltese Cross is? Think again...



## JJR512 (Sep 30, 2010)

_This has more to do with firefighters than EMS providers, but because many EMS providers are also firefighters, or work out of fire stations, some may find it interesting..._










Every firefighter knows what this cross (both variations) is called, right?

If you said, "Of course, that's the Maltese Cross!" sorry, that is incorrect.

This is a Maltese Cross:





The cross that many firefighters mistakenly refer to as "Maltese" is actually the cross of St. Florian. St. Florian is the patron saint of firefighters. More about him, and why he is that, can be found here: http://www.saintflorian.net/legend/legend.html


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## EMDispatch (Sep 30, 2010)

I was under the impression that the St.Florian is a form of Maltese Cross. The Maltese cross is just a more generic term for any cross with 8 points.


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## JJR512 (Sep 30, 2010)

A Maltese Cross is a very specific cross. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_cross

It is true that other crosses are often called "Maltese". And perhaps through common misuse, the word "Maltese" has come to be a generic term, like "Xerox" or "Kleenex". But my point is to show that not only is it not a generic term, there is actually a more correct specific term for the firefighter's symbol.


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## EMS49393 (Sep 30, 2010)

No offense, but you trust wikipedia?  I'd verify the footnotes first.  I know for a fact that wiki is often so incorrect that it's not allowed as a resource for any of my classes in college.

Indeed the maltese cross has numerous variations.

http://www.orderstjohn.org/osj/cross.htm


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## JPINFV (Sep 30, 2010)

EMS49393 said:


> No offense, but you trust wikipedia?  I'd verify the footnotes first.  I know for a fact that wiki is often so incorrect *that it's not allowed as a resource for any of my classes in college*.
> 
> Indeed the maltese cross has numerous variations.
> 
> http://www.orderstjohn.org/osj/cross.htm



Emphasis added

An encyclopedia is an inappropriate final resource for college, period, especially in the age of the internet. As such, who is considered an 'editor' for an encyclopedia is immaterial. Seriously, try quoting Britannica, Grolier, or Encarta on a college level research paper for anything besides absolutely basic background material and see how far that gets you.


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## JJR512 (Sep 30, 2010)

EMS49393 said:


> No offense, but you trust wikipedia?  I'd verify the footnotes first.  I know for a fact that wiki is often so incorrect that it's not allowed as a resource for any of my classes in college.
> 
> Indeed the maltese cross has numerous variations.
> 
> http://www.orderstjohn.org/osj/cross.htm



I know the tendency these days is to assume everyone else is an idiot, and I'm quite sure I've been guilty of that myself many times. However, although I occasionally do some stupid things, I'm not stupid. Yes, I know Wikipedia is user-created and -edited. Yes, I know there is much incorrect or misleading information there. But yes, I also know to check the references; again, I'm not an idiot. And I also realize that on the internet, even the references might not be accurate. But when I see that a Wikipedia article does actually have references that appear to be plausible, then yes, I tend to trust that article.

The link you provided, which is in fact a reference to the Wikipedia article, specifically defines the Maltese Cross. That website's definition matches the image I labelled as "Maltese Cross" earlier. The website also discusses _other_ crosses and their uses to provide a context for the Maltese Cross. In any event, I see nothing on that website to suggest that the firefighter's symbol, the Cross of St. Florian, ever was, or could be, correctly referred to as a Maltese Cross.


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## JJR512 (Sep 30, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Emphasis added
> 
> An encyclopedia is an inappropriate final resource for college, period, especially in the age of the internet. As such, who is considered an 'editor' for an encyclopedia is immaterial. Seriously, try quoting Britannica, Grolier, or Encarta on a college level research paper for anything besides absolutely basic background material and see how far that gets you.



Just like I told you before, this isn't college, and this is not a college research paper. This is an internet discussion forum.

But if you can find (in any source you consider "acceptable") information that proves the crosses I've described as "St. Florian's" are actually not St. Florian's, and really are Maltese, I'd love to see it. And I do not mean an image of that style of cross with a caption that says "Maltese"; I mean something that actually discusses why it is wrong to call that style of cross "St. Florian's" and why it is correct to call it "Maltese". (In case you missed it, that was yet another "Put up, or shut up" request.)

Millions of firefighters calling it Maltese does not make it Maltese.


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## EMS49393 (Sep 30, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Emphasis added
> 
> An encyclopedia is an inappropriate final resource for college, period, especially in the age of the internet. As such, who is considered an 'editor' for an encyclopedia is immaterial. Seriously, try quoting Britannica, Grolier, or Encarta on a college level research paper for anything besides absolutely basic background material and see how far that gets you.



Yeah, but you know what I found does rock, especially for a person in hot pursuit of a bachelors in history?  Jstor.  I LOVE Jstor.  So lovely to put every magazine article known to man at my fingertips.  (Not every, but it's shocking just how much they do have on there.)  Because I specialize in medieval and renaissance studies many of the primary sources I need are online because there are no copyright laws in effect for them.  It's nice to be able to read those sources online and not have to travel to, say, the Library of London to find what I'm looking for.

JJR512: No one called you an idiot.  I simply pointed out the inaccuracy of using a source such as wiki since I see so many young folks bet their lives on what it contains.  I still see people in my online classes citing wiki even though it's outlined in the syllabus that it is a forbidden source.  Take it for what it's worth, but in the future, please refrain from putting insults in my mouth (on in my replies).


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## JPINFV (Sep 30, 2010)

JJR512 said:


> Just like I told you before, this isn't college, and this is not a college research paper. This is an internet discussion forum. [I ignored the rest of this drivel]


Did you miss...



EMS49393 said:


> I know for a fact that wiki is often so incorrect that it's *not allowed as a resource for any of my classes in college.*




Also, did you even take a look to see who I was replying to? Please, take the advice in this video.


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## JJR512 (Sep 30, 2010)

EMS49393 said:


> Yeah, but you know what I found does rock, especially for a person in hot pursuit of a bachelors in history?  Jstor.  I LOVE Jstor.  So lovely to put every magazine article known to man at my fingertips.  (Not every, but it's shocking just how much they do have on there.)  Because I specialize in medieval and renaissance studies many of the primary sources I need are online because there are no copyright laws in effect for them.  It's nice to be able to read those sources online and not have to travel to, say, the Library of London to find what I'm looking for.
> 
> JJR512: No one called you an idiot.  I simply pointed out the inaccuracy of using a source such as wiki since I see so many young folks bet their lives on what it contains.  I still see people in my online classes citing wiki even though it's outlined in the syllabus that it is a forbidden source.  Take it for what it's worth, but in the future, please refrain from putting insults in my mouth (on in my replies).



I know you didn't call me an idiot. I never said you called me an idiot.

What is this "Jstor" to which you're referring? Sounds like there's be some kind of subscription or access fee involved... I'd love to learn more about it, though. It sounds interesting.


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## LucidResq (Sep 30, 2010)

I'm not trying to be a jerk.... but who cares, honestly? We're nitpicking about semantics for a symbol that has nothing to do with EMS itself.


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## JJR512 (Sep 30, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Did you miss...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How can I tell to whom you are replying? It seemed to me that you were quoting what someone else said in order to make a point directed at me, another "you should't trust Wikipedia" point. That's not an unreasonable assumption, given the circumstances. Perhaps next time you wish to address one specific purpose when you're in a situation where many other people might hear (or read) you, you should begin by calling that person by name. That just seems like common sense to me.

By the way, it's good to see that you're capable of getting upset over something so trivial. Perhaps now it is I who should be saying "Stay classy" to you?

Finally, as I believe I have said before, I do not typically follow links used to make an argument. That includes to Youtube videos, too. If you have something you'd like to say, just say it; don't expect me to go out of my way to get your message for myself. I don't think that would hold up in a college research paper very well, either.


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## JJR512 (Sep 30, 2010)

LucidResq said:


> I'm not trying to be a jerk.... but who cares, honestly? We're nitpicking about semantics for a symbol that has nothing to do with EMS itself.



That is why I prefaced this by saying, "This has more to do with firefighters than EMS providers, but because many EMS providers are also firefighters, or work out of fire stations, some may find it interesting." Not everybody cares about everything; I understand that. I don't expect that everyone here will care about this topic, but I also know that this website has a higher concentration than the average online message board of firefighters or people who work with or around firefighters, so forgive me if I thought there might be at least a couple of people here who might have found it interesting. Honestly, if you're browsing a message board and happen to come across a topic in which you have no interest, it just really seems to me that it would make more sense to move along to another topic; I don't really see the point or sense in taking the time to stop and say you don't care, or discuss what does and doesn't belong in college research papers, etc.


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## LucidResq (Sep 30, 2010)

JJR512 said:


> Honestly, if you're browsing a message board and happen to come across a topic in which you have no interest, it just really seems to me that it would make more sense to move along to another topic; I don't really see the point or sense in taking the time to stop and say you don't care, or discuss what does and doesn't belong in college research papers, etc.



Exactly, which is what I did initially. But now that I see it has caused an argument, I came to remind everyone that this is trivial. 

Sorry I interrupted, continue arguing over semantics and Wikipedia, everyone.


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## JPINFV (Sep 30, 2010)

TO JJR512 (please see reason for heading in post)



JJR512 said:


> How can I tell to whom you are replying?


I would guess a good way would both by recognizing that the text being quoted wasn't something I wrote and the fact that my name isn't the one in bold following the phrase, "Originally posted by..." at the top of the quote box would both be excellent options of determining that someone was not, in fact, replying to something I said. Additionally, considering that the point was directed at a specific part of a post that had been emphasized would be excellent evidence that it wasn't a roundabout reference either. 



> Perhaps next time you wish to address one specific purpose when you're in a situation where many other people might hear (or read) you, you should begin by calling that person by name. That just seems like common sense to me.


Since apparently reading the top of the quote box is too difficult for you, I will now begin all posts directed specifically at you in the manner I did above. Hopefully this will provide absolute clarity for your situation. 



> Finally, as I believe I have said before, I do not typically follow links used to make an argument. That includes to Youtube videos, too. If you have something you'd like to say, just say it; don't expect me to go out of my way to get your message for myself. I don't think that would hold up in a college research paper very well, either.



I guess it's good that this isn't a college research paper. Apparently you're the only one holding dear to that argument. To reiterate, in the words of Robert Downey Jr. in Tropic Thunder. "Never go full retard."

Edit:
I also read Firehouse.com forums for the laughs from time to time and I see that someone over there agrees with one of my earlier posts.


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## JJR512 (Sep 30, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> I would guess a good way would both by recognizing that the text being quoted wasn't something I wrote and the fact that my name isn't the one in bold following the phrase, "Originally posted by..." at the top of the quote box would both be excellent options of determining that someone was not, in fact, replying to something I said. Additionally, considering that the point was directed at a specific part of a post that had been emphasized would be excellent evidence that it wasn't a roundabout reference either.


Reading who you're quoting only tells me who you're quoting; it does _not_, in and of itself, tell me who you are addressing.



> ...in the words of Robert Downey Jr. in Tropic Thunder. "Never go full retard."


Good advice. I hope you take it.



> Edit:
> I also read Firehouse.com forums for the laughs from time to time and I see that someone over there agrees with one of my earlier posts.


Someone agreed with Hitler, too. Someone agree with Osama bin Laden, too.

I have an idea you might want to consider. Look up at the top of the page (this webpage you're reading now). Below the big logo, there's the area that tells you what thread you're reading. Just below that, in a thin dark blue strip, there's a link that says "User CP". Click that link. On the User CP page, in the left column, there's a link that says "Edit Ignore List". Click that link. On the Edit Ignore List page, there's a text box labelled "Add a Member to Your List...". Type "JJR512" into that box, then click the "Okay" button (I like that "Okay" is actually spelled out on that button, rather than the more common "OK"...LOL). Now you will never have to deal with any of my non-collegiate-level posts again. Problem solved! (It won't hurt my feelings...trust me.)


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## JPINFV (Sep 30, 2010)

JJR512 said:


> Someone agreed with Hitler, too. Someone agree with Osama bin Laden, too.


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## JJR512 (Sep 30, 2010)

JPINFV said:


>


...


JJR512 said:


> I have an idea you might want to consider. Look up at the top of the page (this webpage you're reading now). Below the big logo, there's the area that tells you what thread you're reading. Just below that, in a thin dark blue strip, there's a link that says "User CP". Click that link. On the User CP page, in the left column, there's a link that says "Edit Ignore List". Click that link. On the Edit Ignore List page, there's a text box labelled "Add a Member to Your List...". Type "JJR512" into that box, then click the "Okay" button (I like that "Okay" is actually spelled out on that button, rather than the more common "OK"...LOL). Now you will never have to deal with any of my non-collegiate-level posts again. Problem solved! (It won't hurt my feelings...trust me.)


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## EMS49393 (Sep 30, 2010)

JJR512:

Jstor is an online journal storage.  There probably is a subscription fee, and I apologize in advance that I do not know how much it is.  I access it through my college library website and my access is included in my tuition every semester.

I have found journals from the early part of the last century when doing research, which is extremely interesting to a big history fan.

If you happen to like VERY old documents or books, gutenburg.org (incidentally also part of wiki) has roughly 30,000 books available for download.  They are all old books in which the copyright has expired or never existed, for instance Sir Thomas More's Utopia, published in 1516.

I am not getting in the middle of anyone's peeing contest.  When I point out something to someone it is meant to help them, not be better then them.  I do not know your level of education or even how young you are so I can't presume you would have known that wiki is not the most trustworthy cite to gather information, although it does make for an interesting read at times.  I only said not to trust it so a person wouldn't run out and start spouting off information they got from wiki that was written by some lunatic as gospel and make themselves look foolish.  Looking foolish sucks, take it from someone with years of experience in that.

I actually enjoyed the little article on the maltese cross since I'm starting down the barrel of a fire service career (God help that station if they pull me from the medic to the engine) in my near future.  

I've also sent you a PM.  

Now let's all play nice.


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## JJR512 (Sep 30, 2010)

Thanks for the info, looks like the actual content is paid access, but it's available (just like for you) through both of the community colleges that I'm considering going to for an EMT-P program and other studies. I'll definitely remember that.


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## EMDispatch (Sep 30, 2010)

People, people....we're missing the best solution. We should all go consult our religious official of choice, then we can start a holy war or inquisition based on their statement.


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## JJR512 (Sep 30, 2010)

MCERT1 said:


> People, people....we're missing the best solution. We should all go consult our religious official of choice, then we can start a holy war or inquisition based on their statement.



But who will the agnostics and atheists consult?


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## JPINFV (Sep 30, 2010)

JJR512 said:


> But who will the agnostics and atheists consult?



They can consult directly with the flying spaghetti monster.


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## JJR512 (Sep 30, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> They can consult directly with the flying spaghetti monster.



But they'd have to believe in the FSM to consult him. The agnostics wouldn't be sure if the FSM exists or not, and the atheists wouldn't believe in the FSM, or else they wouldn't be atheists, they'd be Pastafarians.


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## fortsmithman (Sep 30, 2010)

Here is a link for the cross of St Florian.
http://st-florian-medal.com/st-florian-maltese-cross-saint-florian-cross.htm


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## TraprMike (Sep 30, 2010)

Hairs, we have them, so we split them in the interweb forums.


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## ffemt8978 (Sep 30, 2010)

Godwin's Law invoked.

Thread closed.


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