# Feeling out of place at the fire station...



## ladyemt 215 (Jun 30, 2008)

Am I the only one that, at first, felt out of place?

I've been putting in volunteer hours at my station for about 3 months.  Ever since I walked in the door, day one, I've felt out of place.  During my ride-alongs, there was nothing but sideways looks and silence.  At first, I examined MYSELF, thinking maybe I was being anti-social or not really saying much.  But, nope.  Not me.  

Even while trying to make conversation, I was asked "What ARE you doing here?".  Not in a mean way, but kinda playful.  Still bothered me.

I get the feeling that if you haven't previously been affiliated with the fire service, then you're kinda suspect.   I'm a stay at home mom, wanted to be an EMT, took the class, passed the tests, now I'm an EMT. :lol:  That's it, that's all.  Also, someone clued me in that even the slightest hint of natural eye shadow and lipgloss is really... prissy/girly?  I dunno.  I feel like an alien when I go to volunteer, but I'm not leaving my **lip gloss behind!!!

I have two other friends that went through class with me and they feel the same way.  We can't be the only ones ever.  What I'm looking for is for someone to tell me that it's not like this everywhere. :glare:



_**lip gloss is never applied during a run_


----------



## Flight-LP (Jun 30, 2008)

ladyemt 215 said:


> Am I the only one that, at first, felt out of place?
> 
> I've been putting in volunteer hours at my station for about 3 months.  Ever since I walked in the door, day one, I've felt out of place.  During my ride-alongs, there was nothing but sideways looks and silence.  At first, I examined MYSELF, thinking maybe I was being anti-social or not really saying much.  But, nope.  Not me.
> 
> ...



Are there any agencies local to you that aren't staffed by a bunch of volunteer fire monkeys? 

Honestly, I see that being an issue. Ego's run deep in tradition within the fire service, unfortunately intelligence and lack of ignorance doesn't run quite as deep. If you want to be a true professional, then you need to imerse yourself in the same. By description, it doesn't sound like that is the case..........................


----------



## ladyemt 215 (Jun 30, 2008)

Flight-LP said:


> Are there any agencies local to you that aren't staffed by a bunch of volunteer fire monkeys?
> 
> Honestly, I see that being an issue. Ego's run deep in tradition within the fire service, unfortunately intelligence and lack of ignorance doesn't run quite as deep. If you want to be a true professional, then you need to imerse yourself in the same. By description, it doesn't sound like that is the case..........................




I think you may have hit the nail on the head.  The local agencies are largely volunteer-based.  I had no idea that the fire service was this deep.  I should have asked more about it before I finished up the class.  It makes me hesitant to show up to volunteer.  I'm a pretty tough one, but sheesh... I can only take so much.  Plus, I'm volunteering because I want to.  The experience is good and I help where I can.

Thanks for your response.


----------



## LucidResq (Jun 30, 2008)

It's hard to judge what's going on without experiencing what you're experiencing, but I think almost everyone who enters this field feels like an outsider for some period of time when they start working. 

The thing is, very tight knit bonds are formed in this field, and many people consider the people they work with their second family. When you drop in new people suddenly, things can be a bit awkward. Yes, they will be watching you closely and judging you. I moved up the ranks of my SAR team pretty quickly (was probationary last year, now I'm a Lt.) and now that we're taking in a new class of probationary members I've seen this dynamic from both sides. As they've been doing their basic training, an unwritten list of which probies are good and which are bad has formed. 

The probies that have impressed us the most have an excellent work ethic, are eager to learn and grow, respect their Officers, offer help, show enthusiasm for the team, help out other probationary members, show up to as many trainings/calls/meetings as possible, ask good questions, keep a professional appearance, and shut their mouths when necessary. 

I'd recommend becoming as involved with the fire station as you can. Sit back and observe the nuances of the group... especially in regards to their sense of humor. Good free food is generally greatly appreciated by those in emergency services. Work hard, learn as much as you can, give credit where it's due, have a sense of humor but know when to be serious, and respect your superiors.

If you haven't somehow pissed them off irrevocably and they're still excluding you, they're a bunch of a-holes and you should consider leaving.


----------



## ladyemt 215 (Jun 30, 2008)

LucidResq said:


> It's hard to judge what's going on without experiencing what you're experiencing, but I think almost everyone who enters this field feels like an outsider for some period of time when they start working.
> 
> The thing is, very tight knit bonds are formed in this field, and many people consider the people they work with their second family. When you drop in new people suddenly, things can be a bit awkward. Yes, they will be watching you closely and judging you. I moved up the ranks of my SAR team pretty quickly (was probationary last year, now I'm a Lt.) and now that we're taking in a new class of probationary members I've seen this dynamic from both sides. As they've been doing their basic training, an unwritten list of which probies are good and which are bad has formed.
> 
> ...




Yeah... I totally get that they have bonds and all that.  I've come in and I've really been the third wheel for a while.  I don't know everything and I love learning, but I'm just not built to take too much of anyone's bull. :lol:  Especially, when I give it my all, everytime I'm there.  

Good free food is nice, but I'm not into bribing people with food.   Especially people that couldn't care less if I was there or not.  You see... it's GOT to go both ways.  Especially after months.  

The last sentence of your post, the bolded, is exactly how I'm feeling at this point and is what prompted me to make this post.  I'm a bit frazzled by the whole "attitude" I'm getting.  I KNOW I'm not making it up, I know I'm not being sensitive, and I know that I'm being overlooked.  Not a cool feeling.

Hope I don't come off as whiny, because I'm not into whining.  Honestly, I understood that people had bonds, but apparently it goes deeper than I gave it credit.  I understand that now.  That's definitely not something to take lightly.


----------



## mikeylikesit (Jun 30, 2008)

Hazing should not take place in a volunteer setting. It is not your job and your only their because you have a place in your heart for the community. These guys in your area could just all be jerks...are you the only female on staff that is having this problem? Is your agency hard to get on with? I see a lot of guys that when they see a women in uniform they think to themselves "great, she can't lift sh%* and she want to come behind me on an IA". Act tough if you feel the need to and it will gain some respect from those whose opinions don't really matter.


----------



## Hastings (Jun 30, 2008)

I always hated most of the Fire Stations when I was doing ride-alongs. Thankfully the Lansing Firefighters are all really big players in the EMT education in Lansing, so they are all great teachers and make you feel at home even if it's not your scene. Other fire stations however were your stereotypical "WE BE MANLY MAN MAKE FUN OF LITTLE PARAMEDIC" types. The overdone testosterone thing has never been my scene, and I just dealt with it the best I could until I could get into a private service. 

The fire scene isn't for everyone. Don't stick around if it isn't for you. Seek a private service where everyone there isn't obsessed with comparing how large their balls are.

There is an "attitude" among most firefighters, and you'll have to work your *** off for a long time before they'll even consider letting you be part of the group. And that's even if you can match the personality there. Personally, I'd seek a place where you can be you and be instantly accepted and welcomed for being you. There may be a lot of people who disagree with me here, but private services are typically a lot more welcoming to anyone, regardless of whether they're someone you'd choose to hang out with outside work or not.

Edit: And this is coming from a man.


----------



## BossyCow (Jun 30, 2008)

I have never felt what you describe in any volunteer fire organization or system. I have occasionally, while taking fire training with a bunch of professional FF he-men-women-haters, been teased or treated like an idiot stepchild until I get a chance to show that I know what I'm doing.

There can be a healthy amount of scepticism in the fire service. What we do is dangerous and we may need to count on this new person to haul our butts in bunker gear out of a fire someday. So, before you make the determination that they are 'just a bunch of a-holes', take an *honest* look at your behavior and demeanor. Could there possibly be something in your behavior that is creating a false impression of your dedication to learning and being a member of the organization? This may need an outside observer's help unless you are able to be extremely subjective about looking at yourself with a critical eye. 

You state quite proudly that you are 'not built to take too much of anyone's bull'. This may be coming off as arrogant or pushy. 

Also the statement "Also, someone clued me in that even the slightest hint of natural eye shadow and lipgloss is really... prissy/girly? I dunno. I feel like an alien when I go to volunteer, but I'm not leaving my **lip gloss behind!!!" Make me wonder a bit. If someone 'clued you in' on that, it tells me that there are some judgements being made about you based on your behavior or personality that you are oblivious to. It may just be your mannerisms or the tone or pitch of your voice. We do make assumptions about people based on their mannerisms. 

EMS and fire is pretty messy stuff. I had a volunteer who repeatedly showed up on calls wearing totally inappropriate clothing. I decided that the frillier her clothing, the messier her assignment got. The capper was when she showed up on a hemmoraging bowel cancer patient in a white eyelet lace peasant skirt. I had her slogging a stretcher down a pothole filled muddy driveway, with a really icky patient on it. And before you go on about how mean that was.. I was on the other end of the stretcher. 

If you want to be taken seriously, all you have to do is be there and do what is asked when asked to do it. With time, respect will come. If you are still being treated poorly after proving yourself by action, then there is something else affecting the problem.


----------



## ladyemt 215 (Jun 30, 2008)

BossyCow said:


> I have never felt what you describe in any volunteer fire organization or system. I have occasionally, while taking fire training with a bunch of professional FF he-men-women-haters, been teased or treated like an idiot stepchild until I get a chance to show that I know what I'm doing.
> 
> There can be a healthy amount of scepticism in the fire service. What we do is dangerous and we may need to count on this new person to haul our butts in bunker gear out of a fire someday. So, before you make the determination that they are 'just a bunch of a-holes', take an *honest* look at your behavior and demeanor. Could there possibly be something in your behavior that is creating a false impression of your dedication to learning and being a member of the organization? This may need an outside observer's help unless you are able to be extremely subjective about looking at yourself with a critical eye.
> 
> ...



Why would anyone wear anything other than their gear to the fire station?  Wow.  

I see that you've totally taken me wrong, too.  I am judged and I don't know how, as no one barely says two words to me.  I'm up for the mess, but because I may be a little prissier than the guys there :lol: they don't think I am.  

I assure you, nothing about me is arrogant or pushy.  That made me chuckle a bit.  Usually, and in this case, it's just the opposite.  I'm waiting for someone to throw something at me so that I can prove myself and no one comes at me with ANYTHING.  There is nothing.  

As I stated early on in my original post, I DID look at myself.  That's the first place I go.  I am generally fairly honest with myself (even to my chagrin sometimes) and I noted that it wasn't me.  I even asked one of the guys at the station and he said something about me being a girl. *sigh*  I feel like people want me to change who I am to fit in. I don't mind bending, but it seems like I don't fit in because I'm not male.

Also, like I said, I love to learn.  I appreciate when I get new tidbits of knowledge when on a call.  I like it when a fellow crew member lets me know how I could have managed something better.  That's what I'm there for.  They know I have a good handle on what I'm doing, that's not an issue.

I feel like I'm being judged again. :lol:  Making assumptions about anyone based on their mannerisms is unfair.  If that's what they're doing, that stinks.


----------



## mikeylikesit (Jun 30, 2008)

If you’re going to wait for them to hand you something for you to prove yourself with...then ya better pack a lunch. To prove yourself, take the initiative (not on calls unless directed) and show them what your made of.


----------



## ladyemt 215 (Jun 30, 2008)

mikeylikesit said:


> If you’re going to wait for them to hand you something for you to prove yourself with...then ya better pack a lunch. To prove yourself, take the initiative (not on calls unless directed) and show them what your made of.




Even here, I'm misunderstood and I just got here! :lol:  Dang...


----------



## karaya (Jun 30, 2008)

Are you the only female at this organization?  If not, tell us how they are treating the other women.  Also, is your age somewhere in the range of the others?  Is your educational background similar to the others?

I'm trying to see if there are other factors at play other than just the fact you're a woman and not one of the "good 'ol boys".


----------



## BossyCow (Jun 30, 2008)

ladyemt 215 said:


> I feel like I'm being judged again. :lol:  Making assumptions about anyone based on their mannerisms is unfair.  If that's what they're doing, that stinks.



Okay, I wasn't judging you but attempting to give you some things to try. I was trying to point out some things that appeared to me that may be influencing your situation. While it may be 'unfair' to judge someone on their mannerisms, it is however human to do so. Understanding that someone may be doing that gives you an opportunity to overcome the misconception. 

I will tell you what I told one of my volunteers recently on a different topic but I think it applies here. You have choices, you can see a situation you don't like and either decide to fix it, or decide to leave the situation. Either option is perfectly acceptable and needs to be determined based on what investment you are willing to make into the correction of the situation.

Let me give you an example from my personal volly experience. I volunteered in a very rural, very tight knit volunteer agency. I am a rather outspoken person, educated, professional and was not well received initially. I found that my voice tends to be a bit louder than they were comfortable with.  Much of this may have come from my teaching background, or my being raised in a large, garrolous, irish family. The point is, I could have said how unfair it was that they judged me based on my voice, I could have thought they were a bunch of rude people because they didn't like me. 

Instead, I made a conscious choice to watch the volume of my voice when speaking. I still get teased, and this is the group that tagged me with the moniker I use for a nickname here. But I'm now a chief officer in the department there and have made many friends in the process. 

I guess only you can decide if its worth the effort to attempt to make the situation better. But I recommend giving it a good shot before chucking it.


----------



## ladyemt 215 (Jun 30, 2008)

karaya said:


> Are you the only female at this organization?  If not, tell us how they are treating the other women.  Also, is your age somewhere in the range of the others?  Is your educational background similar to the others?
> 
> I'm trying to see if there are other factors at play other than just the fact you're a woman and not one of the "good 'ol boys".



I'm sure I'm not the only one.  But in the time I've been there, I've only met one other lady.  She's like one of the boys!  I'm older than a few of the guys, actually.  Everyone seems to be young--about 22 or so.  I think I'm the "weird, old lady". :lol: 



BossyCow said:


> Let me give you an example from my personal volly experience. I volunteered in a very rural, very tight knit volunteer agency. I am a rather outspoken person, educated, professional and was not well received initially. I found that my voice tends to be a bit louder than they were comfortable with.  Much of this may have come from my teaching background, or my being raised in a large, garrolous, irish family. The point is, I could have said how unfair it was that they judged me based on my voice, I could have thought they were a bunch of rude people because they didn't like me.
> 
> Instead, I made a conscious choice to watch the volume of my voice when speaking. I still get teased, and this is the group that tagged me with the moniker I use for a nickname here. But I'm now a chief officer in the department there and have made many friends in the process.
> 
> I guess only you can decide if its worth the effort to attempt to make the situation better. But I recommend giving it a good shot before chucking it.



I get what you're saying and thanks.  I, too, don't think I've given it enough time, but I guess I'm getting impatient.  I'm only human, man.  I honestly think I confuse most of them.  They don't have anything against me personally, but I think I just confuse them.  Blah.  Whatever.  I'm going in in a couple days and I'll talk REALLY loud... like BossyCow did at first!  I think that's a plan.  Thanks for that advice.


----------



## mycrofft (Jun 30, 2008)

*Been there, the other way. (I sound like Anne Landers!)*

I was a loud-mouthed twenty-seven year old ex-firefighter/EMT entering nursing school with a bunch of nineteen or twenty year old girls in the early Eighties, when things were a little more civilized than now (and in Nebraska, to boot). Even though I moderated my language I was asked several times by faculty why I was there, and told a couple times by faculty and administrators before I was even fully enrolled that I was not going to pass, but I did and without being washed back. I shaved off my moustache (raised my GPA, in actual fact), watched my manners from day#1, and whenever I caught them discriminating against me (which was done with housing, military reserve activation, and conferring without my presence about my academic progress, a "no-no" under the rules at that time) I politely put in writing that situation "A" was occurring and could they help me? The behavior usually evaporated, but I was going to be there for a finite period and had the law behind me, not having to go to fires and MVA's with them for years later.

Now, I'm reading tea leaves here, but volunteer organizations of all sorts develop "alpha males", "queen bees", unofficial leaders who make the organization "go" and help define its morals and mores. I've seen both bad and good folks frozen out of volunteer organizations including FD's (and professional paid positions too) because the "in-crowd" does not take a cotton to them. That acts to define and run the organization, so if you don't fit in, look elsewhere. If you want to try it anyway, ask for help from the AC's and crew chief's in "mapping the waters", but nt for overt sponsorship.

If things continue sour, though, my feeling is that a quiet and dignified withdrawl to another agency, expressing your appreciation for their helping you learn the ropes (whether true or not), could leave you in a position to still be a supporter and possibly come back, someday or learn somehow to live without them and embrace your new cohorts.


----------



## TheDoll (Jul 7, 2008)

i don't have anything earth shattering to say, but i did want to chime in a bit. first, you've gotten a lot of good advice here. ems/fire is not an easy road to go or an easy group to get in with. however, once you are in, you are golden. 

bossy cow is a wealth of information, and you should listen listen listen to her and others. i promise they are trying to help you work this out. 

as much as you want to help, you are still inexperienced (as am i). sometimes when we are so new to this field it is hard to understand how ignorant we are about certain things. no matter how much we want to help, sometimes we are still annoying because we don't know what to do.
it's the kind of thing that only experience and a good attitude can remedy. 

don't worry, i have been in a similar boat for about 6 months. things will get better. hang in there, chica!

oh, and i'll deal with anything, but i will NOT leave my lip gloss behind!


----------



## stupie680 (Jul 16, 2008)

Hang in there it will get better and you will be accepted.


----------



## ILemt (Jul 22, 2008)

I on the other hand have some bad experience to share.
Im a professional EMT but not in my hometown. I have tried for five years to join the vollunteer FD in my hometown to absolutely no avail.
All because my folks are friends with the last fire chief and his wife.

When he left, a new order took over and anyone else was (and is) 
persona non gratis

Im qualified for the department, have the time and energy and yet Im denied year after year, even though, there are days the town is so short handed they mutual aid a car fire. 

Lets face it, department politics suck

Beyond that... my first job as an EMT, I was ignored in the beginning. No one spoke to me or even looked in my direction if they could help it. They did this until I'd proven myself on a few really intense calls. Do I think it served a purpose? No, not at all. Its just the nature of the beast. 

Good luck in your attempts to fit in.


----------



## MedicAngel (Jul 23, 2008)

It is hard when your not accepted at a fire squad or a rescue squad, and I know how that is as the first one I was at wasn't too keen on the rescue side of the house and if you weren't a FF you weren't squat. I still would go on fire calls, I humped enough hose and water packs on hills, did my time in the weather racking hose or cleaning it right along with everyone else. You do your best and you do great on the call, then you go home.

The rescue squad I am at now has no fire side to them, so it makes it nice. I am still pretty stand offish, but that is just me as I got burned pretty good at the last place I was at and don't want to put myself in that type of situation again. I do talk to a few of the people, our chief is a great guy and very encouraging about going to classes, doing things and bettering ourselves. Maybe if you can find someone you click with it will become easier for you. Go get lunch with them, go over the ambulance together, things like that. 

Good luck..I have made some awesome friends since becoming an EMT, ones that I know have my back in any given situation or that I can call if I need them. I wouldn't trade them or my experience for anything in the world, and that is partly why I love emergency care so much.


----------



## BossyCow (Jul 23, 2008)

Here's a bit of perspective... How many of us have seen those bright shiny faced newbies show up at the station all happy and proud to be a volunteer. How many of those people are still around 6 drills later? 6 months later? 6 years later?

If we seem a bit jaded its generally due to experience. While this is all new for you, we've seen dozens like you come and go. Everyone likes it at first and as the reality of cleaning the station, picking up the trash left after a drill or meeting, reloading 500' of firehouse back on the trucks at 3AM or spending an hour and a half disinfecting the ambulance after a nasty trauma code and finishing up 10 minutes before you have to leave for work at your day job, these are where the rubber meets the road with volunteers.

I love the enthusiasm of new volunteers. But its kind of like looking at the puppies in the box outside the grocery store, we really have to be careful not to get too attached too quickly. While this may appear to be insensitive or unfriendly, its a reality. 

Just remember, we don't know you, we know that you may end up not staying, and we know that this will happen over and over again.


----------



## firetender (Jul 23, 2008)

There's things you have control of, and there's things you don't.

You can't control the actions or words of others.

However, you can control how YOU let them in.

Right now, being off-balance, you're likely interpreting most everything (simple gestures and the like from the others) as Negative. That's completely part of the process.  

You're raw now, but the one thing you can stop is wondering if they're right. They're not. 

There's nothing wrong with you, you're going through the natural adjustment period.  Bossy's right about a "there's no one really here until they stay" attitude. And yes, it is true, the fact you're a woman is still a prejudice-generator. But don't bother trying to please them.

Keep your focus on yourself and what you're doing, not on them. Focus on yourself doesn't mean "How can I be more like a person they can accept."

Keep focusing on the utilization of your strengths within the context of the moment-to-moment things you have to deal with. Focus on what will make you better at the job you're being asked to do, not the personalities you have to deal with.

The name of the game is by doing that, you take THEIR focus off of what you can't do or do right, and put it on who you are and what you ARE doing.

From that point on, remember TIME WOUNDS ALL HEELS.

The ones who take the time to notice will be the ones carrying the others with them. Let the idiots continue to be idiots, by no means adapt to them. Resistance (either to yourself, as in trying to be good for them or actually confronting them) just feeds them.

Don't feed them, feed yourself.


----------



## karaya (Jul 23, 2008)

I don't think ladyemt is interested in this thread anymore. She hasn't posted a response in over three weeks. :sad:


----------



## Jon (Jul 23, 2008)

She is still logging on to the forum (as can be seen on her profile)

LadyEMT.. Has anything changed?


----------



## karaya (Jul 23, 2008)

Jon said:


> She is still logging on to the forum (as can be seen on her profile)
> 
> LadyEMT.. Has anything changed?


 
Yeah I saw that too. Little surprised she hasn't bounced back here. Kinda curious as to her outcome.


----------



## OminousFinding (Jul 30, 2008)

ladyemt 215 said:


> Am I the only one that, at first, felt out of place?
> 
> I've been putting in volunteer hours at my station for about 3 months.  Ever since I walked in the door, day one, I've felt out of place.  During my ride-alongs, there was nothing but sideways looks and silence.  At first, I examined MYSELF, thinking maybe I was being anti-social or not really saying much.  But, nope.  Not me.
> 
> ...



If you ever come back to read this...I can identify with being an "outsider volunteer" as well, but I am male. There really is pomp and circumstance to winning the acceptance of a crowd of male firefighters especially if you don't fit into the typical age/sex/personality category.

As others have stated, your success will depend on becoming an asset to your station/program. If you're dedicated and really bring skill (or a teachable spirit, insatiable willingness to learn), then you will have at least one likeable trait no matter what age/sex/personality you are. If you sulk away and reflect their stand-offishness, they win....They've seen countless volunteers come and go, and you're just the latest one to leave. If you like EMT work, dig in!

Regarding the lip gloss...made me lol...if they keep harping, show up with a new stick for each of them and explain you knew they were just jealous, so you bought them some too. It might get you a laugh, or maybe even a nickname out of the deal.


----------



## JPINFV (Jul 30, 2008)

OminousFinding said:


> It might get you a laugh, or maybe even a nickname out of the deal.


Hot Lips? 

/MASH reference.


----------



## AugustLastWeek (Aug 2, 2008)

Well, I was a 19 year old kid when i decided to volunteer on a Fire Department, when I got into there I remember that I only spoke when I was spoken to, I only did what I was told to and allways respected everyone and showed a lot of interest in learning, the first months were hard for that, I wanted to joke arround with the crowd but I knew that I should stay aside a little more and see how far I could trust them and show how much they could trust me. Now, almost two years after, I'm a part of the familly, pretty much a punk inside that is respected enough to say what I have to say and even if they dont agree, at least they respect my opinion and try to understand it. 
Don't try too hard to be accepted, and dont wait for them to come over and ask you to join you. Things will occur naturally. Sorry for not being a great help but....


----------

