# Looking for advice



## AndiBugg (Mar 17, 2007)

I hate to ask for advice on a personal problem, but I thought this would be the best place to go. I'm sure every one has had situations where a friends situation would interfere with work. I have a good friend, and I love her to death, shes like a sister to me, but she tends to be a little dramatic. She says she feels like she wants to "end it all" and "leave this world" things like that, she doent really show the signs of a suicidal person, and I hate to admit, I feel like shes doing it for attention, but who am I to judge if she really is or not. I know as a health care provider, we are supposed to report this type of stuff, but I think she would be mad, I dont think she really wants those types of measures taken, I've even suggested her talking to a professional. I dont want to make her mad, or make a big deal out of this in case its nothing, but who am I to say she wont do something, and I would really hate to see her do anything. I guess I shouldnt doubt her, but I feel like she is just doing it for the attention. I dont want to seem cold hearted, but I wanted to know what you guys would do? Should I follow up on my duties as a healthcare worker, and tell someone about it, or should I just continue as I'm doing and try to be there for her as a friend, but not give into the drama? Thanks for listening, and thanks in advance for the advice.


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## Medic's Wife (Mar 17, 2007)

I'm sorry you're stuck in such a bad situation.  Honestly, in my opinion, she needs professional help either way.  If she's serious, she obviously needs help before she hurts herself.  I believe that anyone who threatens suicide just for attention has mental issues that need to be dealt with as well.  I personally lean towards the attention scenario, because people who really DO want to end it all very rarely go around telling anyone about it, they just do it.  But as someone who cares about her, I'd think you'd be better of safe than sorry.  Hope that helps some, good luck.


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## AndiBugg (Mar 17, 2007)

Thanks for the concern and the advice. I do appricate it. I am going to try to talk her into talking to someone on her own rather than report it, I dont want to make someone do something they dont want to, but I do agree she needs help. I dont really think she would do it (I know that sounds awful, but its just a feeling) but like you said, the cry for attention is a problem too. Thanks for the advice, it really helped and I appricate it


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## Ridryder911 (Mar 17, 2007)

Sorry, anytime a friend, relative or patient seriously describes that they "want to end it".. "leave this world".. they get a visit from mental health officials. 

You say she does not appear suicidal.. I ask what more do they have to tell you ? Even, if they do not have a plan or a gun or pill bottle in their hand, they are crying out for help. If they are being very dramatic, then they will get the attention that they are seeking, and will never use that route again. 

You as well, describe that..._I don't want to make her mad, or make a big deal out of this in case its nothing, but who am I to say she wont do something, and I would really hate to see her do anything._ ...
The old saying, if you thought of it, you probably should had done it .. comes in mind. I much rather have a friend be mad at me, then dead. If they are much of a true friend, then they will understand, if they don't, then you can still sleep at night. 

The next time they mentioned suicidal ideologies, I would notify whomever has the authority to perform such exams and monitoring and prepare third party statements as a witness. 

I know this is a hard decision, but err on the best behalf of your friends and patients. 

R/r 911


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## medman123 (Mar 17, 2007)

I have a friend EXACTLY like that.  All they want is some one to talk to and to be a friend. Thats all you can do.


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## BossyCow (Mar 18, 2007)

medman123 said:


> I have a friend EXACTLY like that.  All they want is some one to talk to and to be a friend. Thats all you can do.




It's an easy call, which is going to be easier for you to live with..... "My friend is mad at me because I tried to help her" .... or... "God, I wish I had done something!"  Whether your friend is serious about ending her life or just seeking attention, either way the behavior says she needs professional help.  I would give her an option, to seek help herself, or that you will do it for her.


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## TheDoll (Mar 18, 2007)

BossyCow said:


> I would give her an option, to seek help herself, or that you will do it for her.



i think this is the best advice. that way she still gets a bit of a choice, but the end is the same. i think it would be very difficult to continue being her friend if she keeps talking like this, but not doing anything to help herself get better, but that's just me. good luck and i hope everything works out okay.


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## Nycxice13 (Mar 18, 2007)

Thank god I don't have any friends like that, the way I am, Id get ticked one day and end up saying the one thing that will push them over the edge.


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## Jon (Mar 18, 2007)

If they know you are an EMT, then they are crying out for help from you.... you need to get them that help... call 911, and be willing to make a statement as to what they said... get them the help they need.


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## Epi-do (Mar 18, 2007)

I had a friend that was calling out for help like this.  I tried being there, and listening when he wanted to talk.  While I am sure he appreciated my support, that isn't what he needed.  I finally told him to go get some help.  He did begin to see a counselor, but it apparently wasn't enough.  He took some pills and ended up spending some time in a stress center.  He was eventually released, seemed to be doing better, was still seeing someone with professional training that could help him, etc.  

A few weeks later, he began calling one day, and kept calling and calling and calling.  He wouldn't tell me where he was at, so I made some calls to let people know what was going on.  One person that I called just sighed and asked what he had done now.  The frustration was so apparent in this guys voice that it was sad.  Anyway, my friend was apparently calling a couple other people in between phone calls to me.  I finally got to where I just couldn't do it anymore so I shut off my cell phone and left my house for a while. 

Later that evening I got a call saying that he was back in the stress center for taking more pills.  He also had some superficial cuts on his wrists from where he had thought about doing that but couldn't bring himself to go through with it.  He spent several days in the stress center, and then was part of an outpatient program.  Antidepressants, marriage counseling, individual counseling, and seeing a psychiatrist are all being used to help get him back on track.

I am glad that he eventually got the help that he so desperately needed, but our friendship was strained to the breaking point.  

Your friend needs help.  Do what you can to get it for her.  In the meantime, don't let her problems drag you down with her.  I truly am not saying this to be mean, but you can't be any help at all if you are getting sucked into all the "drama".  You need to be able to realize when it is getting to be too much for you and step back to keep yourself healthy.  Listen to her as much as you can, and, like BossyCow suggested, tell her to get help or you will get it for her.

I hope your friend is able to see that you just want what is best for her and she gets the help that she needs.


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## Ridryder911 (Mar 18, 2007)

medman123 said:


> I have a friend EXACTLY like that.  All they want is some one to talk to and to be a friend. Thats all you can do.



A couple of things that concerns me with some posts. 

First, that is not all you can do. Is this what you would do for your patients ? I am sure it is not, what makes this different ? Would you not do more for your friend as much as your patient ? You would interview and notify mental health, LEO or whatever agency is needed to get those people help. A true friend would do in the best interest of the friend, that is professional help. EMT does not have the training or knowledge to deal with depression and suicidal tendencies. I could only think of the personal tragedy that could afterwards and potentials problems if one did not take action. 

Even if that person is  ""dramatic" , they still need professional help. 




Nycxice13 said:


> Thank god I don't have any friends like that, the way I am, Id get ticked one day and end up saying the one thing that will push them over the edge.



This is another myth. One cannot make a person commit suicide of one says or does. Suicide is from deep depression and irrational thinking. I have seen many EMT's even afraid to ask patients if they were thinking of killing themselves or have a plan of such? Believing that they may "induce" them into performing the act, which is not what causes suicide. One does not "plant" the thought into the mind of a depressed person, they had already thought of it, if they were to commit the act. 

Basically, (generically) there are three types of suicidal patients. Those that actually perform the act. Those that accidentally kill themselves acted upon a method, not realizing the finality of it (i,e, O.D. thinking they really would not die, more for the drama, or for some form of revenge), and those that cry out for attention or help.. seeking some form of attention. 

Suicidal patients used to anger me, because of the waste of life. With maturity and understanding of life and psychology, I now understand that with such deep depression those not only don't see the light at the end of the tunnel, they don't even see the tunnel itself. Depression be it psychological or organic chemically induced makes one not to be able to rationally to think clearly. 

Most of our patients have some form of psychoses be it long term or under the stress of the event. Unfortunately, EMS personnel are not required to have enough education to understand and deal with these type of patients, again another lack of our educational system. Something, that educational and training officers should look into for more education to the staff.

R/r 911


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## Nycxice13 (Mar 18, 2007)

Ridryder911 said:


> This is another myth. One cannot make a person commit suicide of one says or does. Suicide is from deep depression and irrational thinking. I have seen many EMT's even afraid to ask patients if they were thinking of killing themselves or have a plan of such? Believing that they may "induce" them into performing the act, which is not what causes suicide. One does not "plant" the thought into the mind of a depressed person, they had already thought of it, if they were to commit the act.
> 
> Basically, (generically) there are three types of suicidal patients. Those that actually perform the act. Those that accidentally kill themselves acted upon a method, not realizing the finality of it (i,e, O.D. thinking they really would not die, more for the drama, or for some form of revenge), and those that cry out for attention or help.. seeking some form of attention.
> 
> ...




Its a myth? So all those people who killed themselves following a bad break up don't exist?


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## Epi-do (Mar 18, 2007)

The way I understand what RR is saying is that those people you are referring to, Nyc, already had issues and were depressed long before the breakup occured.  If I had to guess, most likely this group of people would also fall into the second or third group that RR mentioned - those that didn't think they would actually die/killed themselves accidentally or those that were wanting attention.  These people could just as easily tried to commit suicide even if the breakup hadn't occured.  It isn't really the catalyst for the event, it may have just helped add fuel to a fire already raging out of control.

We have all had a breakup that we considered really bad, or that hit us extra hard.  When that happened to you, how quick were you to think of trying to kill yourself?  While I am guessing you were devestated by the event, I would be surprised if you said you really, truly wanted to die.


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## Ridryder911 (Mar 18, 2007)

Nycxice13 said:


> Its a myth? So all those people who killed themselves following a bad break up don't exist?



As I had described, the second type maybe the "accidental" type. The O.D. or raging GSW to the head. The person does not rationally think out the situation thinking of the long term effects. Many of these patients, actually never really intended on hurting or killing themselves, rather attempted for revenge or retaliation purposes. Which is much different than the "depressed" patient. 

It has been proven with research, that many of those really never wanted the end result, rather was only thinking in the moment. 

I have seen as many accidental suicides and suicidal attempts as ones that was planned out. 

Again, there has never been any documentation that revealed discussing with a patient if they have thoughts of suicide that it will cause or give idealogies to do so. 

However; it is negligent if you do not ask pysch patients if they are considering and do not assess such as asking if they have thoughts, plans, and if so extent of plan in detail. This is the only tool to see if they have or are considering such. Most suicidal patients do not leave notes or come straight forward. Many will give subtle hints and induendos.. that is why, we (EMS) need to be careful and listen to our patients. 

R/r 911


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## Nycxice13 (Mar 18, 2007)

Ridryder911 said:


> As I had described, the second type maybe the "accidental" type. The O.D. or raging GSW to the head. The person does not rationally think out the situation thinking of the long term effects. Many of these patients, actually never really intended on hurting or killing themselves, rather attempted for revenge or retaliation purposes. Which is much different than the "depressed" patient.
> 
> It has been proven with research, that many of those really never wanted the end result, rather was only thinking in the moment.
> 
> ...


So people who knowingly attempt suicide are thinking rationally? 

And just because its not documented it hasn't happened? Ive never documented myself urinating, guess that doesn't happen...


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## medman123 (Mar 18, 2007)

Ridryder911 said:


> You would interview and notify mental health, LEO or whatever agency is needed to get those people help. A true friend would do in the best interest of the friend, that is professional help
> R/r 911


OK lets say you get them help. They will put them on a 72hr hold then let them go. What eles do you do????? Please help me understand.


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## AndiBugg (Mar 18, 2007)

Thanks you guys for the concern and advice, its been really helpful in making a decision. I didnt feel as guilty when I talked to her about getting help. She asked me to follow her home the other day because she had wanted to wreck her car on purpose, thats when I mentioned her seeing someone. She was offened at first, but her main concern was about what other people (i.e. her family) would think, so I offered calling someone for her, and reassured her that no one would be mad if she got the help she needed, that they would want her to. She asked me if I would call someone for her, that she wasnt ready to go to her family about it, so I did. Shes doing fine, I mean considering the situation. Her family had a lot of questions, but were thankful that she didnt follow through with anything. Thanks you guys for the advice. It was helpful, I didnt feel so bad about offending her at first, because it was best in the end.


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## Medic's Wife (Mar 19, 2007)

I'm glad she's getting help and you're not feeling guilty about confronting her.  Hopefully this will be what she needs to get her emotions in order.....let us know how things go.


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## bled12345 (Mar 21, 2007)

*lol*

this is actually a pretty interesting thread... there seems to be two different perspectives in the topic, the caregiver approach and the friend approach.

I actually find the definition of "accidentally killed themselves" funny, it really made me lol out loud to myself. 

The act of suicide is definately one of the TOUGHEST things to deal with. From trying to understand it, to coping with it, and even trying to differentiate between those that are 100% going to kill themselves, and the drama queen's that every friday night you have to deal with them saying how much they hate life and how they want to die, even though you can rationally discern that they would never be able to follow through with it. Like it was posted earlier, at which point do you continue to make efforts to help them, and at which point does the stress of dealing with it consume you and bring you down mentally with them? 

Speaking from my own experience, it is tough for me to take 90% of "suicidal" people seriously, I say this with extreme bias, and I am aware of my bias.  just over 2 years ago a family member of mine actually "accidentally" or "intentionally" killed herself, my mom. It was definately one of the tougher points in my life, and being a survivor of suicide, well lets just say it gets a little complicated. Not only is it tough because a friend or family member just died, but the REASON behind why they died becomes tremendously complicated. I found myself asking questions all the way from "was there anything I could of or should have done that could have prevented it?" to "maybe she finally found peace, and in that case is it so terrible after all?" Like people mentioned prior, the people who tend to actually follow through with it seem not to ever talk about it. I had no idea my mother was suicidal, I just happened to get a call one night about 2 hours after it all happened saying that she had passed on. There were no indications to me at all, and I think this is one of the reasons why suicide is *SO* difficult to assess.  I don't even know where I'm going with this.  I guess my main point is that suicide is majorly fu**ed up, and nobody will ever be able to understand it, or come to terms with it. The way I see it now is that its just the way it is, I found one of my coping mechanisms was telling myself constantly that ":censored::censored::censored::censored: happens, people get over it"  With suicide, its almost better NOT understanding it, and hey... sometimes you can do everything in you power to help someone, but sh*t happens, and sometimes there is absolutely nothing that you can do succesfully prevent it.


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## Medic's Wife (Mar 21, 2007)

Sorry to hear about your mom


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