# Body Armor - Stab Resistant and/or Bullet Resistant



## mikeylikesit (Jun 22, 2008)

So this question is posed to anyone in EMS,FF or Hospitals; do any of you, wear a stab proof vest while working. Now i know that i am going to hear a lot of "why would you need one, it's time to find a new place to work" but i wear one both at the hospital where i work as well as on the rig. This thing has saved my skin more times than i can count (one person tried to stab me with a Yankauer tip once) My question to you all is, do you wear them? why or why not?


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## Jon (Jun 22, 2008)

Umm... don't you mean "stab resistant"???

I'd rather wear a bullet-resistant one. Getting shot has a greater likelihood of killing me.

I added a poll


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## Hastings (Jun 22, 2008)

I've worked in both Detroit and Flint and have never worn any protective vest. Wasn't necessary as long as I always did a solid safety/scene assessment.


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## ffemt8978 (Jun 22, 2008)

Hastings said:


> I've worked in both Detroit and Flint and have never worn any protective vest. Wasn't necessary as long as I always did a solid safety/scene assessment.



I don't care how solid your safety/scene assessment is, crap happens that you can't plan for or expect.  Are you willing to bet your life on it?

http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=7757


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## mikeylikesit (Jun 22, 2008)

Jon, i understand your concern with the bullet proof vest, i how ever never really thought it too necessary to get a level IV vest because the chances of a person getting into the back of my rig or hospital are slim but not always guaranteed. i would really like to be able to afford one but it is not going to happen. the reason i wear stab resistant is cause of needle and knives that i have encountered more than a hand full of times and i don't even work in a dangerous setting. Like FFEMT said i am not willing to bet my life on the assumption that no one would try and hurt me on duty.


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## Jon (Jun 22, 2008)

You don't need a level IV unless you forsee yourself coming under rifle fire.

However, if you are wearing a vest, it should defeat, at a _minimum_, the ammunition that the local PD carries... that is the gun that is on your scenes the most often, right? II and IIIa should both work. IIIa is a little heavier, and probably can't hurt.

It has been a while since I've worn my vest. None of my co-workers wear one, but I'm starting to think about it again.


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## mikeylikesit (Jun 22, 2008)

Jon said:


> You don't need a level IV unless you forsee yourself coming under rifle fire.
> 
> However, if you are wearing a vest, it should defeat, at a _minimum_, the ammunition that the local PD carries... that is the gun that is on your scenes the most often, right? II and IIIa should both work. IIIa is a little heavier, and probably can't hurt.
> 
> It has been a while since I've worn my vest. None of my co-workers wear one, but I'm starting to think about it again.


most level II and IIa and IIIa vests are only woven to protect against high velosity blunt impact and are not woven to prevent penetration. i think that your right though, that it should be atleast at the minimum of the PD. I wish that the thought didn't even have to cross an EMS or hospital workers mind though.


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## Hastings (Jun 22, 2008)

ffemt8978 said:


> I don't care how solid your safety/scene assessment is, crap happens that you can't plan for or expect.  Are you willing to bet your life on it?
> 
> http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=7757



Yes, I am willing to bet my life on it. I've been in such unexpected circumstances. But I was taught the skills to recognize a developing situation early and retreat before it gets to the point of a weapon being pulled or used. There are always signs before it happens.


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## MMiz (Jun 22, 2008)

I've gone back and forth on this one, but I think you'll find that in a few years most EMS agencies will issue body armor, similar to police.  I never had a close call, and 99% of the people I've talked to never had a close call, but it's that 1% that gets you.

There are police officers working in Detroit that will work their entire careers without firing a single shot or being fired at.  There  are EMS units in Detroit that have been taken hostage and shot at, recently too!  If you read the Office Down Memorial Site you'll find that tons of officers in great communities are shot and killed, mostly in domestic violence cases.  How many times have you been called to a domestic volence?  I've been to quite a few.

Lastly, without proper restraints in the back of an ambulance, body armor may save your life in the case of a crash.

That said, I never wore it, and only knew one guy in our small agency (25 units) that did.  He got harassed so much that he stopped wearing it after a few months.


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## LE-EMT (Jun 23, 2008)

Hastings,  I am a former swat trained police officer.  I will assure you that there are instances where you won't always see it coming.  there are times when there are no warning signs.  Granted my job was slightly different then yours.  But never the less if there was always a sign that something bad was about to happen before it did.  Then I will guarentee you that probably 90 percent of the WORLDS Police officer deaths would have never happened.  I wouldn't have two bullet holes and 3 knife wounds in me.  

You were taught skills??????  Did some one teach you how to read minds???????? Because if they did, I want their name number their email web site and pager,  and this individual should go into business for himself he would be a BILLIONAIRE.  could teach all the cops and soldiers how to read minds and not get shot or blown up.  I know this is a little eccentric but seriously think about it.  I also know that I am different then most people.  I am a crap magnet.

question at hand.  I used to wear a vest daily.... Ummmm Shot threw the vest and under for those who want to know.  9 mm missed my vest by my hip.  ak-47 round threw both sides upper left shoulder/chest area.  Kife one in the lower back near my right hip, right bicep, and left forearm.  Last two were defensive saw it coming just not in enough time to not get cut.  

as far as EMS wearing a vest ballistic or other I can't see wearing one all the time but I could see when you are out of the truck on a high risk call or dealing with a high risk pt.  Understanding that any call can become high risk at any given time it makes it hard to say when it would be applicable to wear.  I can't say that I wouldn't nor can I say that I would strap on ever day or every call of every day for that matter.


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## Hastings (Jun 23, 2008)

Responding to a scene as a police officer is a lot different than responding as a paramedic.

Namely because by the time the latter comes by, said officer has already secured the scene and searched everyone for weapons.

Therefore, I'm all for police wearing armor. It's just not necessary for the medics as it is for that first responder.


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## LE-EMT (Jun 23, 2008)

I understand that and I have to agree with you there 100 percent.  but in your prior post you would have everyone believe that you are some kind of super future seeing person who will never ever be hurt by another person.  wait until someone wraps that stetho around your neck in the back of that ambo.  you can never be sure what some one is gonna do is what my point was.  so if a stab vest makes you feel better about not getting stabbed then by all means strap on.  is it necessary???? no but it definitely can't hurt.


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## Hastings (Jun 23, 2008)

First of all, any medic foolish enough to wear his/her stethoscope around their neck like some ER TV show deserves it.

Second, how is a vest or any protective gear going to help if said patient suddenly attempts to strangle you with said stethoscope?


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## LE-EMT (Jun 23, 2008)

Hastings said:


> Yes, I am willing to bet my life on it. I've been in such unexpected circumstances.* But I was taught the skills to recognize a developing situation early and retreat before it gets to the point of a weapon being pulled or used. There are always signs before it happens.*



I see the word weapon not knife, edged weapon, fire arm, or blunt force weapon...
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
weap·on    Audio Help   /ˈwɛpən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[wep-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.	any instrument or device for use in attack or defense in combat, fighting, or war, as a sword, rifle, or cannon.
2.	anything used against an opponent, adversary, or victim

If you would like by all means please go to dictionary.com and search weapon.  it only illustrates my point.


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## Ridryder911 (Jun 23, 2008)

In my 31 years I have not had a knife pulled on me, but I have a gun pulled on me. A vest would not helped as it was placed to my head... 

There are areas that definitely need more than others, can we predict ..no. Do I foresee them being used.. yes, in certain areas but not standard issue. When in reality more medics are killed by motorist at a MVA. 

R/r 911


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## ErinCooley (Jun 23, 2008)

There really isnt an option for me..

I don't and nobody in my company does, we arent in a great neighborhood by any stretch of the imagination though.  Yes, parts of the city is great, there is also a large area that is unsafe.


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## Alexakat (Jun 23, 2008)

None of us do...but we should.  Some of our run area is really scary.  I have been on scene & had that twinge of "something feels weird", but have never had anything happen.

One of our squad members has had a gun pulled on him.


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## Bosco578 (Jun 23, 2008)

Our Dept. issues Body Armour to any staff that wish to have one. They are Level II,the same as our PD. We are not issued external carriers,so any staff that want one must order and pay for it themselves.

I personally have always worn my vest whilst on duty. My choice. I have been to lots of "secure" scenes that suddenly became Un-secure. I have had Knifes pulled on me (within striking distance) Thankfully I have not had to experince what LE-EMT has.

I have had  my share of "routine" medical calls where family members for one reason or another become hostile. I think it's one of those things that if you own or have the option of being issued a vest (Stab resitent/Ballistic/both) if YOU feel better about wearing one,who cares what anyone else thinks,at the end of the day it's your choice.

That being said I wear a condom at work incase blood leaks through my pants and gets in my pee hole.....


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## mikeylikesit (Jun 23, 2008)

Bosco578 said:


> Our Dept. issues Body Armour to any staff that wish to have one. They are Level II,the same as our PD. We are not issued external carriers,so any staff that want one must order and pay for it themselves.
> 
> I personally have always worn my vest whilst on duty. My choice. I have been to lots of "secure" scenes that suddenly became Un-secure. I have had Knifes pulled on me (within striking distance) Thankfully I have not had to experince what LE-EMT has.
> 
> ...


Exactly, just because the LEO's are not on scene doesn't mean that the person is not dangerous. It could be a gang member that oh so happened to fall. You never know and don't know when it's coming. Plus hypodermic resistance is always nice when going over the bumps.


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## BossyCow (Jun 23, 2008)

I don't, but not because I think my neighborhood is incapable of producing a violent pt. Given the likelihood of the event happening on one of the two hundred or so calls I run a year, where a violent pt gets past a LEO safety check and I am injured, its just gonna be 'one of those things'. I think I stand a higher risk of getting hit by a car on a scene, hit by a car crossing the street off duty, or developing a non-work related health condition that could take my life.

I do what I can to migiate any of it happening. I do wear PPE, because its pretty easy to do and can mimize the chance of my being infected by a pt. But, to start every call with the donning of body armor, going into each call with the first thought being, "This patient might hurt me" is not a mindset I'm willing to put on. 

I've been in a few edgy situations where the sphincter factor was a bit high, but they have resolved well. If I end up paying a price for this attitude... well... that sucks but none of us get out of here alive. It's a risk, I agree, but to me an acceptable risk. I don't believe the vest would give me a sense of protection, and I would be concerned that it may lead to a feeling of invulnerability that may lead to less caution practiced on scene, because.. "Hey, I'm protected, I have a vest!"

I think its a personal decision based on what makes you comfortable, much like the Yes or No debate on gloves on the other forum. We take risks we feel are in the 'acceptable' column which is often determined by a purely subjective standard.


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## Bosco578 (Jun 23, 2008)

I snug my vest up tight to suck in my jelly belly.


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## BossyCow (Jun 23, 2008)

Bosco578 said:


> I snug my vest up tight to suck in my jelly belly.



Now there's a good reason to wear one! Best so far!!


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## mdkemt (Jun 24, 2008)

*Bullet-Resistant Vests*

Hey Guys,

I am heading back to school this fall and part of our uniform now is to wear bullet proof vests.  Most of the major cities in Canada are going this way.  The northern community I am currently working in is also making it part of our uniform.  Is this something seen down there in the states yet?

Now I just need to find a good place to buy one!!

MDKEMT


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## Hastings (Jun 24, 2008)

mdkemt said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> I am heading back to school this fall and part of our uniform now is to wear bullet proof vests.  Most of the major cities in Canada are going this way.  The northern community I am currently working in is also making it part of our uniform.  Is this something seen down there in the states yet?
> 
> ...



No, even the most dangerous cities in America like Detroit aren't even making armor part of the uniform.


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## Ops Paramedic (Jun 24, 2008)

Good luck!!  Those are uncomforable and heavy.  Obviously what you pay, is what you get.  There are some great products on the market, and the best is get one that suites you, that you can personalise.  Do the reaserch and find the correct vest, otherwise you will waste your money.  

Do you have to wear them all the time, or only when you suspect a bit of action??


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## mdkemt (Jun 24, 2008)

Ops Paramedic said:


> Good luck!!  Those are uncomforable and heavy.  Obviously what you pay, is what you get.  There are some great products on the market, and the best is get one that suites you, that you can personalise.  Do the reaserch and find the correct vest, otherwise you will waste your money.
> 
> Do you have to wear them all the time, or only when you suspect a bit of action??



This is an All The Time thing now.  In order for me to do my practicums I have to had this now.  Otherwise i might as well stay home because they wont let me work.  They are adding this into our expenses for books and such so it saves the employer money in buying one for us.

Would be nice if I only had to wear it when I suspected action but then again...some places you should always expect action.

MDKEMT


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## reaper (Jun 24, 2008)

Dang, glad I don't live in crime ridden Canada!!!


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## Guardian (Jun 24, 2008)

I guess everyone is going to have their personal thoughts about this issue.  I work in a city that usually ranks on the top ten list for murders per capita.  I’ve been in some uncomfortable situations but never felt that I needed to wear any sort of vest.  If it really came to that point, then the city would no longer have me as a paramedic.  I really feel that if a city is that violent, then they should have to do without paramedics.  Sorry, but it’s not worth it.  Luckily it has never come to that here in the USA, or at least not for consistent long periods of time.  But that is not to say it can’t happen.  In other countries, it has gotten that bad.  Take South Africa for example.  No amount of body armor would have convinced me to go into one of the Hostels during the apartheid fighting.


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## mycrofft (Jun 25, 2008)

*Ballistic vests or knifestoppers?*

Crikey, never heard of that. Are you sure you didn't enlist or hire with Blackwater Security? Bending over a pt you are not going to be in optimal vest protective posture in any event. 
I remember they tried to make everyone riding in an ambulance wear crash helmets years ago. That really went over well.


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## BEorP (Jun 25, 2008)

mdkemt said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> I am heading back to school this fall and part of our uniform now is to wear bullet proof vests.  *Most of the major cities in Canada are going this way.*  The northern community I am currently working in is also making it part of our uniform.  Is this something seen down there in the states yet?
> 
> ...


Which other cities?


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## mdkemt (Jun 25, 2008)

Yeah!  I actually don't mind wearing a vest and it is more safety then anything.  I have been in sticky situations already but never really felt I needed a best.  Just their way of being protective I guess.

What other cities...I herd Edmonton is going that way, Saskatoon, Regina, Winnipeg, a few places on Vancouver Island.  I can say for sure Saskatchewan is going Pro for these.  Regina has the highest crime rate in Canada per capita.

MDKEMT


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## wolfie23b (Jun 25, 2008)

Just remember NOTHING is bullet "Proof", only resistant.  Even the Body armor I wore in Iraq could only take so much,  I took 4 rounds and I do not think it could take more.


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## mdkemt (Jun 25, 2008)

Yeah I hear ya.

MDKEMT


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## triemal04 (Jun 25, 2008)

Hastings said:


> Responding to a scene as a police officer is a lot different than responding as a paramedic.
> 
> Namely because by the time the latter comes by, said officer has already secured the scene and searched everyone for weapons.
> 
> Therefore, I'm all for police wearing armor. It's just not necessary for the medics as it is for that first responder.


I'm sorry, but this is one of the more foolish things that I've heard.  Either it was very poorly worded, very uninformed, or a great example of what complacecy coupled with only a little knowledge will get you.  (no offence intended, but it is)

Just because a cop says your scene is clear does not mean that it is; it doesn't mean that everyone has been searched for weapons and those weapons have been removed (sometimes it will, but most definetly not always) just that nobody has one in the open and that the situation is "safe."  At that moment.  It doesn't even mean that the people who will be in cuffs are in cuffs at that point.  Just that the cops consider the situation to be safe.

It does not mean that the situation can't change in a moment, in a variety of ways, some of which can be hazardous or downright lethal to YOU.  And, unfortunately, police aren't always at the scenes that they should be; ever been to a "cut hand from a cooking accident" that turned out to be a stabbing?  With the assailant right there?  Or a "sick person" that turned out to be an OD that would do anything to keep from getting help?  Or hell, how about an OD that, AFTER the cop had "cleared the scene" still had a butcher knife, hatchet, folding knife (open) and several blunt objects (fire pokers and shovel) on the floor with 5 relatively hostile people in the room?

Having police on scene does not automatically make the people there safe to be around.  It does not automatically mean that there aren't weapons there that couldn't be brought into play, and it doesn't mean that the cops will always be there for you.  

That being said, I personally don't wear any type of body armor.  But I also don't go into ANY scene with the assumption that everything is hunkey dory until I've had a chance to look around and make my own decision.

Body armor may save you once or twice in a career, but good situational awareness will save you dozens of times.


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## karaya (Jun 25, 2008)

I wonder how many EMTs or paramedics are shot to death each year in the line of duty vs. those killed in vehicle or helicopter crashes while on duty?


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## Jon (Jun 25, 2008)

OK - I fixed the name. Might as well go with "truth in advertising" 

I think it is interesting that this seems to becoming common practice in Canada.... I know I keep seeing photos in JEMS of Calgary medics and lots of them seem to have vests.

Around here, the nearby _small _city's medics are issued vests as part of their uniforms. Philly hasn't started to issue vests, AFAIK.


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## DT4EMS (Jun 25, 2008)

karaya said:


> I wonder how many EMTs or paramedics are shot to death each year in the line of duty vs. those killed in vehicle or helicopter crashes while on duty?



Outstanding point. 

Now my question is............. Many of the larger services mandate EVOC or a similar driving course in order to drive. Last count there were not 700,000 crashes in a year.

That number comes from a survey done by the NAEMT. When the Mcneil study was released many people shrugged it off and say..... "Oh,..... that can't be right". 

Point is......... Injury from ASSAULT led the way in on duty injuries. 52% of EMS providers were injured by assault, not back injuries or exposure to infectious diseases. Those both ranked lower.

Now back to the point. Granted more people may be KILLED from the auto crash or by being run over while working on the side of the road............... many, many more are injured and have had their lives changed forever after a serious assault.

I have spoken to many of those people. Some face to face, some over the phone and some via email. Truth is........ here we do not take the assaults as serious as other countries do.

The UK is the leader for sure in their attempt to prevent/reduce assaults on EMS providers.

The numbers of EMS providers shot, stabbed, punched, kicked, struck with pipes etc. is friggin crazy when you actually do some digging and see.


My argument remains......... You get PPE and training for infectious diseases, you get EVOC for driving, you get proper lifting techniques training to protect your back.... heck some agencies even supply the back brace............... but where oh where is the scene safety training outside of a little lecture that everyone has heard time and time again.

Now for the real kicker............ IF you were told not to go onto an unsafe scene (FROM THE 2 HOURS LECTURE).......... how are so many assaults still occurring?

The answer............. EMS providers are being assaulted on what WAS a SAFE scene.


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## ffemt8978 (Jun 25, 2008)

mikeylikesit said:


> i bought mine off ebay obviously not punctured yet. it is already broken in...if it wasn't i would have slept in it for a night to get it there. just because someone else wore it doesn't mean that it is no longer stab resistant.



This is the bullet resistant thread, but yes, it can mean that it is no longer resistant.  Human sweat degrades the fibers in the vest over time, which means that it may fail when you need it the most.


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## Jon (Jun 26, 2008)

Just FYI - I've merged the Bullet "Proof" and Stab "Proof" threads... they are both great topics... but I think we are starting to confuse the matter having two separate threads.

MDK's thread is now simply a "what to buy" post:
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=8164


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## K9kazoo (Jul 18, 2008)

BEorP said:


> Which other cities?



Calgary, Edmonton, Saskatoon and Thompson.

B.


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## K9kazoo (Jul 18, 2008)

I wear a Pacific Safety Products (PSP) Griffin... NIJ LvIIIA with a 10x12 IMPAC-ST plate. A bit of over kill... wanted a LvII but the price was right for the  III... that said we just reclaimed murder capital/per capita again along with stolen auto, violent crime, robberies and slurpee titles. 

Attempted to attach a PDF... but it exceeds the alloted size! :sad:  Where's my Mod??? 

B.


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