# Speeding, Alcohol Blamed In Fatal Ambulance Crash



## VentMedic

*For those that still believe police do not have reasons to pull an ambulance over.... * 

*Pennsylvania EMS Worker Charged in Fatal Crash*

http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=6489
Story by thepittsburghchannel.com

MARSHALL TOWNSHIP, Pa. -- 

Speeding and alcohol are being blamed for a crash between an ambulance and car along Route 19 at Brushcreek Road in Marshall Township on Sept. 23, killing two people and injuring three others. 

The driver of the ambulance, Shanea Leigh Climo, 22, of Evans City, was charged on Monday with two counts of homicide by vehicle and involuntary manslaughter, driving under the influence and several traffic offenses. 

http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=6489

Speeding, Alcohol Blamed In Fatal Ambulance Crash
http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/14513869/detail.html

MARSHALL TOWNSHIP, Pa. -- Speeding and alcohol are being blamed for a crash between an ambulance and car along Route 19 at Brushcreek Road in Marshall Township on Sept. 23, killing two people and injuring three others.

The driver of the ambulance, Shanea Leigh Climo, 22, of Evans City, was charged on Monday with two counts of homicide by vehicle and involuntary manslaughter, driving under the influence and several traffic offenses.

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/14513869/detail.html


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## Ridryder911

...."According to prosecutors, she approached a standing red light with lights flashing. *The sirens were not turned on.* Prosecutors said the ambulance struck the car, killing Stitt and Bacon. 

Prosecutors said there was no reason for Climo to be speeding. The patient was under a "do not resuscitate order." Allegheny County District Attorney Stephen Zappala said images from the *ambulance's onboard camera*, which captured 10 seconds inside and outside the ambulance before the crash, will be vital as prosecutors make their case. 

Climo was arraigned Monday and *released on her own recognizance."*....... 

Yep, we have a real outstanding profession here. Hopefully, insurance corporations will soon mandate stricter education and consequences. What is surprising (not really); is that she knew about the video camera, as well why would anybody want to jeopodarize their lives on a DNR or for any call? 

This was gross negligent and unfortunately the EMS company will suffer. Yet again, maybe companies will increase their monitoring and implement more stringent requirements. 

This event was a disgraceful event that should had never occurred.


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## Airwaygoddess

SIGH.........


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## Asclepius

Sentenced and hung without a trial. I guess that is the American way.


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## VentMedic

Asclepius said:


> Sentenced and hung without a trial. I guess that is the American way.



No, the American way is for her to plead down to a couple of misdemeanor charges.  As of this time she is only charged and will have ample time to come up with some defense for her actions. 

She can sway the sympathy to herself and forget the many lives her actions affected other than her own.

I've seen too many DUI drivers walk away and never take responsibility for their actions regardless of what they were driving at the time.


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## ffemt8978

Asclepius said:


> Sentenced and hung without a trial. I guess that is the American way.



My guess is that since the accident happened on Sept. 23rd and they just now charged her, they were waiting for the blood tests to come back.

She made the choice to drink and then drive an ambulance...I highly doubt anybody forced her to drive after drinking.  The tragic part of this is that two innocent people died, and it is with their families that my sympathy lies.

And Ventmedic is 100% correct in his post.


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## Ridryder911

Asclepius said:


> Sentenced and hung without a trial. I guess that is the American way.



How can one even consider anything else? 

..._The patient was under a "do not resuscitate order." Allegheny County District Attorney Stephen Zappala said images from the ambulance's onboard camera, which captured 10 seconds inside and outside the ambulance before the crash, will be vital as prosecutors make their case.".. _...

Enough excuses, sorry; sometimes if it looks like a duck, quack likes a duck, waddles like a duck.... it's a duck ! She is lucky so far.. I am sure the charges will be changed to vehicle manslaughter. Personally, it is too bad they could not charge her with murder. She understood the dangers of being intoxicated, and willingly chose her action and decided to work. 

She drove through the intersection without sirens, she was not able to control her vehicle, she *murdered* innocent victims.   

Enough excuses. 

R/r 911


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## bstone

She was on-duty and drunk? How?? Is this a volunteer service where she was home, drunk and responded as a driver? Was she drinking at her fire house/station house? Was she drunk and came into work? Any ideas?


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## Flight-LP

Absolutely pathetic. Decertify her, prosecute her, and incarcerate her. The longer the better.................................


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## Guardian

Asclepius said:


> Sentenced and hung without a trial. I guess that is the American way.



Totally agree, great post.  The fact the pt was DNR had no bearing because the pt wasn't in cardiac arrest.  The drivers blood alcohol was .09 and the legal limit there is .08.  She wasn't drunk, probably just had a beer before the call.  It appears that she made a mistake by not stopping at the light.  We have all made that mistake at some point in our careers.  We were just lucky enough that it didn't end in tragedy.  60mph in a 40 could conceivably be appropriate, given circumstances we might not be aware of yet (ex. road topography, pt condition, etc.).  Don't get me wrong, it appears she was wrong and needs to be punished.  But, it's wrong for all of you to get up on your high horse and blame her for our collective problems.  Have a heart, she's a 22 y/o who made a mistake.  She made this mistake because of misconceptions about our profession we have collectively allowed to continue.  We need to be there for fellow ems workers, just like FD and PD workers stand up for each other.  I don’t let a couple of one sided, sensationalized news articles convince me of anything.  I will always give my fellow ems providers at least some benefit of the doubt.   And to some of the people who have made comments…Regardless of the years of sacrifice you have made solely to help others, despite literally risking your life (physically, emotionally, financially, etc) to help others, I can’t wait to kick you while you’re down after you have made a mistake.  I look forward to it.


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## Ridryder911

I am totally surprised and shocked at your view Gaurdian. Sorry, nope, not in 30 years have I ever went into work with alcohol in my system, as well running through intersections going at emergency status without audible sirens. Usally, as well I do not transport DNR patients with L/S , but that is a different topic. 

Sorry, there is NO excuse, and I don't care how old she is! She MURDERED two people... point blank. The same if another drunk or careless person performed the same act, the exception is: * We are to be held above the normal accountable standards!* People lives depend upon actions and reactions on all accounts, we  all  know this from day one... sorry there is no excuse. This was not a misdiagnose problem, that one failed to treat or inappropriately treated. This was an adult that had wrecklessly and carelessly operated an vehicle while under the influence of alcohol (even if it was one/100 of a point, she *still* was legally drunk).  Then to describe, "_probably just had a beer before the call "_; you've got to be kidding! When does one have a beer before any call, going onto duty, or even driving a vehicle?  

Personally, it is a shame they cannot prosecute her for murder I , she intentionally and willingly, knowingly, operated under distress. 

I don't condone the "brotherhood of the blue" either, it is wrong. No one is above the law, or standards. That is part of the corruption of the "system" and why the public does not trust law enforcement officials. The old... "Do as I say; Not as I do" mentality. I am glad, we attempt to police our own, shame more light is not shed upon more problems. Yes, stand as a profession, and uphold each other when it is for the good of the profession, good for the care of patient, not when there was wrong doing.

Sorry, if you are going to wait to kick me down for driving while intoxicated; you will have a long wait, I definitely would not hold my breath. Making error in judgement upon patient care, and reasons is one thing; but to be intoxicated operating an emergency vehicle is another.

I will apologize if there is something more than what has been described or reported, but until then, let's clean up our act and definitely not immortalize other professions way of sweeping it under the rug. 

Instead of pitying the accused, maybe some sympathy to the family that lost innocent beloved ones and the remaining crews and administration that have to deal with her mess. I am sure it will be a long time to repair the losses both professionally and financially. 

R/r 911


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## BossyCow

Ridryder911 said:


> How can one even consider anything else?
> 
> 
> R/r 911



I don't know, I still think that innocent until proven guilty thing applies.  But then... I'm a true blue american.  If she's guilty, which is proven only by conviction, then hang her.


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## Asclepius

All I can say is, one ought to be careful when condemning another based solely off what the press is reporting. As we all should know, the press very rarely gets it right. I have known a person who was convicted of voluntary manslaughter based off of what was reported to the press only to later (after serving some undeserved time) have his conviction unanimously overturned by the appellate court.

This sounds like a tragic situation for everyone involved, but I wasn't there. Were you?


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## Guardian

Ridryder911 said:


> I am totally surprised and shocked at your view Gaurdian. Sorry, nope, not in 30 years have I ever went into work with alcohol in my system, as well running through intersections going at emergency status without audible sirens. Usally, as well I do not transport DNR patients with L/S , but that is a different topic.
> 
> Sorry, there is NO excuse, and I don't care how old she is! She MURDERED two people... point blank. The same if another drunk or careless person performed the same act, the exception is: * We are to be held above the normal accountable standards!* People lives depend upon actions and reactions on all accounts, we  all  know this from day one... sorry there is no excuse. This was not a misdiagnose problem, that one failed to treat or inappropriately treated. This was an adult that had wrecklessly and carelessly operated an vehicle while under the influence of alcohol (even if it was one/100 of a point, she *still* was legally drunk).  Then to describe, "_probably just had a beer before the call "_; you've got to be kidding! When does one have a beer before any call, going onto duty, or even driving a vehicle?
> 
> Personally, it is a shame they cannot prosecute her for murder I , she intentionally and willingly, knowingly, operated under distress.
> 
> I don't condone the "brotherhood of the blue" either, it is wrong. No one is above the law, or standards. That is part of the corruption of the "system" and why the public does not trust law enforcement officials. The old... "Do as I say; Not as I do" mentality. I am glad, we attempt to police our own, shame more light is not shed upon more problems. Yes, stand as a profession, and uphold each other when it is for the good of the profession, good for the care of patient, not when there was wrong doing.
> 
> Sorry, if you are going to wait to kick me down for driving while intoxicated; you will have a long wait, I definitely would not hold my breath. Making error in judgement upon patient care, and reasons is one thing; but to be intoxicated operating an emergency vehicle is another.
> 
> I will apologize if there is something more than what has been described or reported, but until then, let's clean up our act and definitely not immortalize other professions way of sweeping it under the rug.
> 
> Instead of pitying the accused, maybe some sympathy to the family that lost innocent beloved ones and the remaining crews and administration that have to deal with her mess. I am sure it will be a long time to repair the losses both professionally and financially.
> 
> R/r 911




I rarely disagree with you and greatly respect your opinion.  However, in this rare instance, I completely disagree.  First, a blood etoh of  .08 is very conservative.  Some people can look at alcohol and blow a .08.  It is very conceivable that she drank hours earlier and thought she was completely sober at the time of the call.  .09 isn’t drunk, alcohol probably didn’t even play a role here.  So all this crap about her being drunk is most likely BS.  Maybe she was a volunteer, who was unaware she would be running a call 4 hours later.  Then 4 hours goes by, you hear the tones, and she responded because she thought she was completely sober.  The scenario I just gave might be entirely wrong.  The point is, we don’t know yet.  Definitely not black and white.  Now, remember this is a young woman who has become an ems provider to try and help people in her community.   SHE IS NOT A MURDERER.  This is a girl who made a mistake and ran a red light.  I blame it on the whacker mentality.  I blame it on the system as a whole.  I’m not going to take out my anger about our collective lack of professionalism on some young girl trying to help her community!!  I treat all my pts, even the ones with DNRs.  The only change in treatment comes when a dnr pt goes into cardiac or respiratory arrest.  This wasn’t the case here.  Our job is very risky.  Right now, it’s very popular to try and sensationalize a mistake made by an ems provider (after all, we should never make mistakes or be human).  I personally realize how important and hard our job is and stand by my fellow ems providers and give them the benefit of the doubt.


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## Guardian

Asclepius said:


> All I can say is, one ought to be careful when condemning another based solely off what the press is reporting. As we all should know, the press very rarely gets it right. I have known a person who was convicted of voluntary manslaughter based off of what was reported to the press only to later (after serving some undeserved time) have his conviction unanimously overturned by the appellate court.
> 
> This sounds like a tragic situation for everyone involved, but I wasn't there. Were you?



yep, great point.


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## ffemt8978

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the law, but if the legal BAC limit is .08 and your BAC is .09, you are over the legal limit - therefore you are LEGALLY drunk, regardless of whether or not you are displaying symptoms.

I do agree with you, Guardian, in that the whacker mentality may have played some role in this but it ultimately comes back to the fact that she made 3 consecutive bad choices.  If she had chosen differently on any of these, this tragic incident may have never happened.

1)  She made the choice to drink
2)  She made the choice to respond and drive the ambulance after drinking
3)  She made the choice to enter the intersection sans siren and possibly without exercising due care and regard for other vehicles


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## Guardian

ffemt8978 said:


> Maybe I'm misunderstanding the law, but if the legal BAC limit is .08 and your BAC is .09, you are over the legal limit - therefore you are LEGALLY drunk, regardless of whether or not you are displaying symptoms.
> 
> I do agree with you, Guardian, in that the whacker mentality may have played some role in this but it ultimately comes back to the fact that she made 3 consecutive bad choices.  If she had chosen differently on any of these, this tragic incident may have never happened.
> 
> 1)  She made the choice to drink
> 2)  She made the choice to respond and drive the ambulance after drinking
> 3)  She made the choice to enter the intersection sans siren and possibly without exercising due care and regard for other vehicles



How was she supposed to know that her BAC was .09?  She probably didn't know.  Her BAC most likely didn't play a role here.  If I'm driving 56 in a 55, am I a reckless driver?  Of course not, and the same can be said for .09 in a .08.  Hell, in a lot of states, .09 is perfectly legal.  You guys make it seem like she went on a bender and then hopped into an ambulance wasted out of her mind.  All I ask is that you put this into it’s proper perspective.  Was she most likely wrong? Yes.  Is she a murderer? No.  Is she a victim of a crappy system? Yes.  Should we all bash her to make a political statement about our ems system? NO!  This poor girl is going through enough right now.  And, I hope none of you ever fall from your high horse.  Because you will be immediately proven guilty based on what some idiot wrote in a local newspaper.


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## VentMedic

Gee Guardian, sounds like you are pro drunk driving.  Numbers are a legal stance. Knowing your limit is an ethical and professional stance.   I take it you haven't seen the studies done on judgement and response impairment behind the wheel of a car at different drinking levels.  Sympathetic supporters provide the drunk driver with more excuses than they can come up with on their own. Thus, the death toll keeps on climbing.  If you know someone has a problem either acute or chronic, don't become their enabler.  

We practice "8 hours bottle to throttle".  Granted there may be times when someone has a late night, we would hope they can hydrate themselves to a sober state way before they arrive to work or preferably call in sick.  Chances are we'll ground them from flight and put a disciplinary note in their file.  The partner will also be disciplined if they have knowledge of an impaired partner and fail to report it. Sometimes their discipline can be more severe than the person who is impaired. 

As with most workmen's comp claims for EMS and hospital, injuries and needle sticks may call for drug and alcohol testing of the employee.  Any blood alcohol level is not tolerated at most professional places of employment in healthcare.  If you have a problem in Florida, the employer and your state licensing board will work with you if you are willing. 

If a person is at 0.08, unless it was a very big 1 drink, it was probably more then "a drink".   

Did you happen to notice the damage done to the car?  Maybe the dead victims should be blamed for not knowing she had an alcohol level of 0.09 and inconvenienced her driving ability by being at that intersection. Any time you consume something that will alter your ability to operate a motor vehicle and especially an ambulance, you are at the very least stupid as well as negligent. 

This news story was a press release more than two months after the incident.  I don't remember the initial story even making a blip on the EMS newswire.  So, NO, the news media is not to be another excuse for her behavior.  

Excuses, Excuses...  Who is responsible for one's actions? 

Drunk Driving is an EMS problem that we look at every day in one way or another.  It is unfortunate when a member of the EMS team crosses that line.  She's not the first and won't be the last.


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## SC Bird

I know I certainly have not been on these forums for any amount of time (compared to some of the old salts)....but I will say this.

From my meager student point of view, I see lots of problems with this most of which have been beaten like a dead horse in previous posts.  In the end, I feel as though yes, it was a tragic event and I do feel badly that such an unfortunate event has happened to a young EMT starting out in her career.  However, I can't see showing up to work in any EMS system with a B.A.C. level of anything over .00.  

I know that circumstances may have justified running L/S for the pt., but I don't believe that any circumstances justify her getting behind the wheel in the physical state that she was in.

-Matt


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## Guardian

VentMedic said:


> Gee Guardian, sounds like you are pro drunk driving.  Numbers are a legal stance. Knowing your limit is an ethical and professional stance.   I take it you haven't seen the studies done on judgement and response impairment behind the wheel of a car at different drinking levels.  Sympathetic supporters provide the drunk driver with more excuses than they can come up with on their own. Thus, the death toll keeps on climbing.  If you know someone has a problem either acute or chronic, don't become their enabler.
> 
> We practice "8 hours bottle to throttle".  Granted there may be times when someone has a late night, we would hope they can hydrate themselves to a sober state way before they arrive to work or preferably call in sick.  Chances are we'll ground them from flight and put a disciplinary note in their file.  The partner will also be disciplined if they have knowledge of an impaired partner and fail to report it. Sometimes their discipline can be more severe than the person who is impaired.
> 
> As with most workmen's comp claims for EMS and hospital, injuries and needle sticks may call for drug and alcohol testing of the employee.  Any blood alcohol level is not tolerated at most professional places of employment in healthcare.  If you have a problem in Florida, the employer and your state licensing board will work with you if you are willing.
> 
> If a person is at 0.08, unless it was a very big 1 drink, it was probably more then "a drink".
> 
> Did you happen to notice the damage done to the car?  Maybe the dead victims should be blamed for not knowing she had an alcohol level of 0.09 and inconvenienced her driving ability by being at that intersection. Any time you consume something that will alter your ability to operate a motor vehicle and especially an ambulance, you are at the very least stupid as well as negligent.
> 
> This news story was a press release more than two months after the incident.  I don't remember the initial story even making a blip on the EMS newswire.  So, NO, the news media is not to be another excuse for her behavior.
> 
> Excuses, Excuses...  Who is responsible for one's actions?
> 
> Drunk Driving is an EMS problem that we look at every day in one way or another.  It is unfortunate when a member of the EMS team crosses that line.  She's not the first and won't be the last.




I am not trying to excuse anyone.  I am trying to put this into proper perspective.  The day your little 8 hour rule doesn't work and you come in with a .09 (without even knowing it), I hope they give you the electric chair.  I'm not pro drunk driving.  I do think that her .09 and her accident were two separate things.  I don't think she was impaired in the least bit by a .09.  As a matter of fact, I have read studies on this and many argue that .08 is too low to convict someone of DUI.  If a scientist were analyzing this case, he/she would look at the variables separately and most likely conclude that a .09 had no effect here.  Unfortunately, people see the world in black and white.  First, drunk driving is fine.  Then MADD comes along, and suddenly everyone with a hint of alcohol on them, is a murderer.  Sorry, but her BAC most likely wasn't the cause of this accident.  What killed those two men were us.  We tolerate this whacker culture, and when it kills, we put the blame solely on one person or alcohol.  You are the one who is excusing our profession and the cause of the real problem here.


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## firetender

I have to echo Guardian's call for compassion, noting that tragedy can befall anyone of us. We put ourselves in circumstances that a simple yes or no choice can lead to death, and there's not a one of us who doesn't privately agonize about some of our choices. If a choice was made to drink a beer close to running a call, that was a real bad choice.
And regards the profession. When you hear about a Dr. copping a feel from a patient do you automatically project that on to &quot;those sleazy Doctors and their profession&quot;?
I really don't know that people read about this and jump to conclusions about what hacks we are. Most people, like yourselves, can distinguish between an aberration and a common occurrence.
(Thirty years ago, stuff like this WAS more common. People knew about this locally. The only difference today is with the media EVERYBODY gets to know about every little isolated incident.)
YES, it's important that this individual faces the consequences of his (her?) actions and pays the price, but the incident indicates a personal, rather than professional failure.At times like this it's helpful to take a breath and wait for the full story to unfold. Condemnation simply has no value to anyone.


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## Chimpie

Guardian, I have to disagree with you as well. Putting aside the crash and the deaths that resulted from the crash, any emergency personnel who has anything over a .00 should not be on duty let alone being behind the wheel of an emergency vehicle, and another 'let alone', running L&S. 

One, .09 is legally drunk, period.

Two, .09 will cause a driver to be impared. I can't believe you would think otherwise. I've read your post several times to make sure I've read it right. At what point (pun intended) do you feel that a person's ability to operate a motor vehicle is impared? And to follow up with another, at what point (same pun intended) would you stop a driver from getting behind the wheel of an emergency vehicle?


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## VentMedic

Guardian said:


> I am not trying to excuse anyone.  I am trying to put this into proper perspective.  The day your little 8 hour rule doesn't work and you come in with a .09 (without even knowing it), I hope they give you the electric chair.



If I EVER come into work with a 0.09 alcohol level I would hope they do give me the electric chair.  I have not done so in 30 years and hope not to do so in the next 20 years. I respect the profession and myself too much.  I do not drink 8 hours before work and will not drink at work. If I am working at 0600, there will not be any alcohol in my hand long before 2200. PERIOD.  

When has drunk driving been fine? 

How you not worked an accident scene which was alcohol related? 

MADD does not make people chose the path they take when they get behind the wheel of a car knowing that they have been drinking. MADD is about educating the public hopefully before a tragic event happens. Unfortunately, they have so many tragic examples to help them make their point. 

If alcohol is permitted where you work or if this is your personal practice, I am probably wasting my typing skills on you. There will always be excuses for those tolerant of this behavior in a pofession.


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## Guardian

VentMedic said:


> If I am working at 0600, there will not be any alcohol in my hand long before 2200. PERIOD.



And you could very well have .09 left in your system and not even know it.



VentMedic said:


> When has drunk driving been fine?



There was a time when policemen would drive drunks home as a courtesy after they wrecked.  Hard to believe after all the lobbying from madd (a good thing), but true.



VentMedic said:


> If alcohol is permitted where you work or if this is your personal practice, I am probably wasting my typing skills on you. There will always be excuses for those tolerant of this behavior in a pofession.


  Alcohol is permitted off duty where I work.


There is no proof that drinking impaired her driving.  Your heads have been filled with propaganda and you immediately assume that anyone with a hint of alcohol on them can’t operate a vehicle.  Most people don’t feel or display anything at .09.  There is a reason police give people field tests.  This is because the charges are much higher if they can prove that someone was actually impaired.


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## Guardian

Chimpie said:


> Two, .09 will cause a driver to be impared. I can't believe you would think otherwise. I've read your post several times to make sure I've read it right. At what point (pun intended) do you feel that a person's ability to operate a motor vehicle is impared? And to follow up with another, at what point (same pun intended) would you stop a driver from getting behind the wheel of an emergency vehicle?



Many experts actually disagree with you.  They believe that .08 was created by overzealous lawmakers.  Having seen people at .08 who weren't affected by alcohol at all, I agree with them.  If it were up to me, alcohol would be illegal all together, along with other drugs.  I work in ems and see what alcoholism does to people every day.  With that said, it's amazing to me that you all are making her out to be an impaired driver without any conclusive proof.


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## MMiz

Guardian said:


> Many experts actually disagree with you.  They believe that .08 was created by overzealous lawmakers.  Having seen people at .08 who weren't affected by alcohol at all, I agree with them.  If it were up to me, alcohol would be illegal all together, along with other drugs.  I work in ems and see what alcoholism does to people every day.  With that said, it's amazing to me that you all are making her out to be an impaired driver without any conclusive proof.


But shouldn't EMS be held to a higher standard than most people?  Here we are arguing for more respect, but we want to be able to have some alcohol in our system before reporting to _work_?

One of my realities of becoming a teacher is that not only am I not allowed to drink while on the clock (even if I'm out having lunch at a conference, no where near the school), but I also shouldn't be seen drinking in an area where my students/parents may be.  Last year we'd all drive 45 minutes away just to make sure that line was never crossed.

I'm one that believes alcohol, in moderation, isn't the biggest of our world's problems.  I *do* believe that it isn't acceptable to report to work with alcohol in your system though.  Just doesn't seem right.


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## Guardian

MMiz said:


> But shouldn't EMS be held to a higher standard than most people?  Here we are arguing for more respect, but we want to be able to have some alcohol in our system before reporting to _work_?
> 
> One of my realities of becoming a teacher is that not only am I not allowed to drink while on the clock (even if I'm out having lunch at a conference, no where near the school), but I also shouldn't be seen drinking in an area where my students/parents may be.  Last year we'd all drive 45 minutes away just to make sure that line was never crossed.
> 
> I'm one that believes alcohol, in moderation, isn't the biggest of our world's problems.  I *do* believe that it isn't acceptable to report to work with alcohol in your system though.  Just doesn't seem right.



I agree, but we should hold ourselves to that higher standard before we convict some young girl of murder.  I don't see us holding ourselves to higher standards of any kind.  We got all kinds of little whacker emts running around using ems as an excuse to be stupid.  We tolerate it.  Every time I try and raise the standards, people on this site try and discredit everything I say and call me an emt hater.  Then some girl who has been affected by this culture does something stupid and you'll blame it on a coincidence.  I'm the one trying to hold people to higher standards.


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## MMiz

No one has convicted anyone of anything.  She'll have a trial, and then she'll have sentencing.

You really got me on the wrong day.  *I'm sick and tired of people not taking responsibility for their behavior.*

1.  She was transporting a DNR patient with lights on.
2.  She was going 20 MPH over the speed limit at night.
3.  She got in a MVC with another car while doing 1 & 2.
*That alone would get her the charges she has.*

4.  She had .092 BAC while doing 1, 2, and 3

I blame poor judgement for her problems.  I understand we're arguing the alcohol and BAC issue, but it _appears_ as though she made a lot of mistakes along the way.


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## triemal04

Couple things for everyone to remember:

Alcohol effects everyone differently; I know for a fact that I can easily pass a field sobriety test with a BAC of .10 and that it takes a lot to get me to a .10 (not what it sounds like, trust meB)) and have watched someone with a BAC of .06 stand up to take the test and fall flat on her face after very few drinks.  If you've been involved in EMS for any amount of time, you should know this unless you've never opened your eyes; how many times have you brought in someone who tested at .30 or higher but was still (relatively) conscious and speaking?  

Nobody knows what the condition of the pt was.  The DNR doesn't mean anything unless they were dead, or the pt requested that it be followed and wanted no care given.  But more importantly, nobody knows what the condition of the pt was.

The driver had been drinking.  At some point, she had drank and then decided that it was ok for her to go on a call and take the lives of a pt, and more importantly, her crew into her hands.  Big mistake, and one that is unforgiveable to me.  And should be to anyone who dares to call themselves an EMT.

Now, I don't care if people want to complain and say that this is just a symptom of a broken system; it is.  But that doesn't change the fact that this idiot decided that it was ok to drive an ambulance after she had been drinking.  I don't care if .09 is normal for her, I don't care if she showed no effects of alcohol, I don't even care if the car materialized in front of her; she was driving an ambulance after drinking.  There is no, repeat no exscuse for that.  Ever.  To try and make one is to make a mockery out of everything that we do and everything that has been done to improve the image of EMS.


----------



## Guardian

MMiz said:


> You really got me on the wrong day.  *I'm sick and tired of people not taking responsibility for their behavior.*
> 
> I blame poor judgement for her problems.  I understand we're arguing the alcohol and BAC issue, but it _appears_ as though she made a lot of mistakes along the way.




I am sick and tired of people not taking responsibility too.  Why do we allow this whacker culture to persist, we need to take responsibility for this.  

I see poor judgment everywhere, especially here on this site.  I would agree that her poor judgment played a role in this, but I would hope you agree that our poor judgment also played a role in those two deaths.  This is just another example that we see everywhere.  People try and place blame on something minor to use it as a bandaide to cover up and prolong the real problem.  This is what I'm sick and tired of seeing.


----------



## Flight-LP

Guardian - I too am disagreeing with ya. And I'm calling bull:censored::censored::censored::censored: on these statement's...........

"And you could very well have .09 left in your system and not even know it."

"Many experts actually disagree with you".

You think the states are bad, the FAA mandates (14 CFR 91.17) under a .04 BAC for pilots. So if your "industry experts" disagree, why hasn't the FAA made any changes? Why, if this is sooooo wrong, does a federal agency say otherwise? Why, because alcohol leads to BAD DECISIONS SUCH AS RUNNING FREAKIN' RED LIGHTS. Call it what you want, she killed those two people due to her gross negligent behavior. Stop sugar coating it people. She had no justification. Now she'll have some time to think about it. Hats off to the DA in this case. She get her just deserved.................................


----------



## Ridryder911

Rather than calling it "whacker" let's really call it what it was... irresponsibility.  Numbers or not, volunteer or not- who cares?  Sorry I do not participate in participating in the ingestion of alcohol if I am subject to call, have an up-coming shift, or if it is a choice that I might have refuse to go on duty, again being responsible. 

Our profession should be the first to be intolerable to any alcohol consumption, no matter what the level reading maybe. We are one of the first ones to see the so called 'two drinks" to cause tragedies. 

True, maybe it was NOT the alcohol. No matter what; at the end of the day, you still have dead victims from the cause of a reckless EVO EMT. 

Again in comparison to other health care professions, we (EMS) take drinking and driving half heartily. Other health care professions and associations promote NO drunk driving and actually in comparison with my license as a RN to that of a Paramedic tolerance is accepted as a norm. I do not see many State EMS agencies monitoring if their registrants have DUI, DWI offenses like other health care professions do. Again, realizing what one does off duty may affect, what they do on duty and possibly a trend. 

It used to be a rare occurrence to see about an EMS accident. Even when EVOC was a rarity. Now, it is a daily common event. We should examine and focus on why such events occur, and then how to regulate and prevent it from occurring again. One death is too many.. albeit a medic or a innocent victim. 

R/r 911


----------



## BossyCow

ffemt8978 said:


> Maybe I'm misunderstanding the law, but if the legal BAC limit is .08 and your BAC is .09, you are over the legal limit - therefore you are LEGALLY drunk, regardless of whether or not you are displaying symptoms.
> 
> I do agree with you, Guardian, in that the whacker mentality may have played some role in this but it ultimately comes back to the fact that she made 3 consecutive bad choices.  If she had chosen differently on any of these, this tragic incident may have never happened.
> 
> 1)  She made the choice to drink
> 2)  She made the choice to respond and drive the ambulance after drinking
> 3)  She made the choice to enter the intersection sans siren and possibly without exercising due care and regard for other vehicles



All of these are the allegations of the arresting officers.  At this point none of it has been proven.  I have zero tolerance for those who actually do these things, but lets wait and see if she actually did.  Then we can light the torches, get the villagers all riled up and have at her.


----------



## VentMedic

*Well Guardian, this guy only got a $20 fine.  This one is almost laughable if it wasn't so pathetic.  Like Rid mentioned in other posts, any other health professional and they would be looking for another line of work entirely or on a random and scheduled pee plan for the next several years with the licensing board. *

http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=6515

*Iowa EMT Allegedly Drives Ambulance Drunk*

The Associated Press

DES MOINES, Iowa -- 

An emergency medical technician has been fired for allegedly driving an ambulance while intoxicated. Paul Engman, who worked for Midwest Ambulance Service of Iowa, is accused of arriving at work two hours early on June 22, smelling of alcohol and attempting to set up an intravenous fluid transfusion on himself, according to state records. He was fired the same day.

When questioned later by police, Engman allegedly said he set up the transfusion to eliminate some of the alcohol in his system, then changed his mind and decided not to follow through with the plan.

Security officers allegedly summoned the police after they saw Engman driving around the lot in an ambulance. Engman was cited for public intoxication, a misdemeanor offense.

*



			Court records indicate the charge against Engman was dismissed pursuant to a plea agreement with Polk County prosecutors. As part of that agreement, Engman pleaded guilty to a charge of speeding or failure to stop and was fined $20.
		
Click to expand...

*
At a recent hearing dealing with Engman's request for unemployment benefits, Engman testified that he didn't believe he was drunk when he arrived at work. Asked how much alcohol he had consumed, he said had "no idea" but had stopped drinking a few hours before reporting for work.

"I started probably at 10 p.m., and I finished drinking at midnight or 1 a.m.," he testified.

http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=6515


----------



## Airwaygoddess

That is such a pathetic and embarrassing example of the EMS profession.  I don't care if this was thought to be funny at one time.  Personal responsibility is a must, and management must take a stronger stand on the zero tolerance in the work place.  I hope he also gets charged for stealing. <_<


----------



## firecoins

I am not reading every post.

*No one* should be drinking before responding to a call. Reguardless whether they are driving, teching or a third.  I LOVE to drink and I refuse to do it with an upcoming shift.  I do not care if .8 is conservative or not.  Blood ETOH should .00


----------



## Guardian

firecoins said:


> I am not reading every post.
> 
> *No one* should be [.....]



you impress me more and more everyday.


----------



## Guardian

VentMedic said:


> *Well Guardian, this guy only got a $20 fine.  This one is almost laughable if it wasn't so pathetic.  Like Rid mentioned in other posts, any other health professional and they would be looking for another line of work entirely or on a random and scheduled pee plan for the next several years with the licensing board. *
> 
> http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=6515
> 
> *Iowa EMT Allegedly Drives Ambulance Drunk*
> 
> The Associated Press
> 
> DES MOINES, Iowa --
> 
> An emergency medical technician has been fired for allegedly driving an ambulance while intoxicated. Paul Engman, who worked for Midwest Ambulance Service of Iowa, is accused of arriving at work two hours early on June 22, smelling of alcohol and attempting to set up an intravenous fluid transfusion on himself, according to state records. He was fired the same day.
> 
> When questioned later by police, Engman allegedly said he set up the transfusion to eliminate some of the alcohol in his system, then changed his mind and decided not to follow through with the plan.
> 
> Security officers allegedly summoned the police after they saw Engman driving around the lot in an ambulance. Engman was cited for public intoxication, a misdemeanor offense.
> 
> 
> 
> At a recent hearing dealing with Engman's request for unemployment benefits, Engman testified that he didn't believe he was drunk when he arrived at work. Asked how much alcohol he had consumed, he said had "no idea" but had stopped drinking a few hours before reporting for work.
> 
> "I started probably at 10 p.m., and I finished drinking at midnight or 1 a.m.," he testified.
> 
> http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=6515



I'm not even going to read all that, you're just wrong! 

lol, I guess you found one we can all agree on.  Get everyone together, light up the torches, and lets go hunting!


----------



## VentMedic

*Regardless how the trial for the deaths of the two people turns out, alcohol and work do not mix.  Again, I emphasize, these news articles were not a reflex hanging by the media. The initial news report was not judgmental.  

Car, Ambulance Collide In Marshall Township; 2 Dead
http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/14183368/detail.html

The later press releases came after almost a two month investigation. This young lady may have been an exceptionally good driver and EMT without the alcohol.  Unfortunately whatever talents and future she will have in the medical profession may now be lost due to a day of really bad judgment. *


*Driver of fatal Pa. crash will be fired under zero-tolerance policy*

http://www.ems1.com/products/vehicles/articles/318318/

By Karen Kane
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Copyright 2007 P.G. Publishing Co.

EVANS CITY, Pa. — A Butler County ambulance driver who is charged with drunken driving and causing a fatal collision while on the job will be fired from the Cranberry Ambulance Company, a supervisor said. 

Lynn Bourchier said Shanea Leigh Climo, 22, of Evans City, will soon be given notice that she will no longer be working as an emergency medical technician there — a position she had held since December 2006.

"Regardless of the criminal charges against her, we have a zero-tolerance policy. We cannot drink any alcohol 12 hours prior to the start of your shift. Any measurable alcohol level is unacceptable, regardless of the legal standards [for drunken driving,]" said Ms. Bourchier, ambulance company supervisor and director of the business office.

http://www.ems1.com/products/vehicles/articles/318318/
Quote from article



> The crash was investigated by reconstructionists from the Northern Regional Police who determined that Ms. Climo had been traveling at about 70 mph in a 40 mph zone on Route 19 and had not activated her siren until about 2 seconds before the crash. The district attorney said the nature of the ambulance transport did not require Ms. Climo to exceed the speed limit.
> 
> Mr. Zappala said Ms. Climo had a blood alcohol level of about 0.092 when the crash happened, though the number registered at 0.07 at Allegheny General Hospital about an hour after the crash, which is just under the state's 0.08 threshold for drunken driving. Police determined her level was at 0.092 at the time of the crash.
> 
> Authorities have indicated they do not believe Ms. Climo had been drinking while working.
> 
> But, Ms. Bourchier said it's irrelevant because Ms. Climo broke the rules about consuming alcohol within 12 hours of the start of a shift.



*Photos*

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/slideshow/news/14515882/detail.html


----------



## Guardian

"Regardless of the criminal charges against her, we have a zero-tolerance policy. We cannot drink any alcohol 12 hours prior to the start of your shift. Any measurable alcohol level is unacceptable, regardless of the legal standards [for drunken driving," said Ms. Bourchier, ambulance company supervisor and director of the business office.


Wow, they fired her, that's a shocker. 

I'm ashamed to be a human being right now.  Our press sucks for sensationalizing a tragedy.  I don't even need to go into all the reasons our legal system sucks.  Above, the company says they fired her due to the zero-tolerance policy.  That's funny, why did they wait a couple of months?  I sure it had nothing to do with the publicity.  

And finally, we suck for buying into all this crap.  We keep ignoring the real problems and instead spend all of our time shoveling this stuff all day.


----------



## VentMedic

Guardian,
If just one person realizes how easy it is to make a mistake that could cost someone their life or change their life and the lives of others forever, I don't think anything is wasted. 

There are a lot of young people out there who might think it is okay to have a few drinks before work or after work and get into either an ambulance or their POV.  Motor vehicle collisions happen even under the best of circumstances. Even if the accident is not your fault, you may have be better able to avoid the other person making the mistake if there was not alcohol in your system regardless of whether you are considered legally drunk.

When one drinks alcohol, one should always be aware of their limitations and the consequences that can occur from their actions where motor vehicles are concerned. If your company has a zero-tolerance policy, I would hope one understands what that means. 

Nobody including the company appeared to be hasty in any decisions until the facts were conclusive.  She was probably placed on leave during this investigation.  Publicity is probably the last thing this ambulance service wants. Small towns really don't like to be put in the national spotlight for things like this. 

I don't understand why you are so angry at those of us that do not support drinking and driving.  I am not asking for the death penalty for this girl. I think that others should learn something from her mistake which may have been the first time she ever did anything like this.  Guardian, maybe she had well meaning friends saying some of the same things you have said in your posts by the way of excuses while she was drinking.

Any drunk driving related traffic death is a senseless death.


----------



## Guardian

VentMedic said:


> Guardian,
> If just one person realizes how easy it is to make a mistake that could cost someone their life or change their life and the lives of others forever, I don't think anything is wasted.
> 
> There are a lot of young people out there who might think it is okay to have a few drinks before work or after work and get into either an ambulance or their POV.  Motor vehicle collisions happen even under the best of circumstances. Even if the accident is not your fault, you may have be better able to avoid the other person making the mistake if there was not alcohol in your system regardless of whether you are considered legally drunk.
> 
> When one drinks alcohol, one should always be aware of their limitations and the consequences that can occur from their actions where motor vehicles are concerned. If your company has a zero-tolerance policy, I would hope one understands what that means.
> 
> Nobody including the company appeared to be hasty in any decisions until the facts were conclusive.  She was probably placed on leave during this investigation.  Publicity is probably the last thing this ambulance service wants. Small towns really don't like to be put in the national spotlight for things like this.
> 
> I don't understand why you are so angry at those of us that do not support drinking and driving.  I am not asking for the death penalty for this girl. I think that others should learn something from her mistake which may have been the first time she ever did anything like this.  Guardian, maybe she had well meaning friends saying some of the same things you have said in your posts by the way of excuses while she was drinking.
> 
> Any drunk driving related traffic death is a senseless death.



You obviously haven’t grasped anything I’ve said thus far.  So, I’m going to be merciful and try again.  I still haven’t seen conclusive proof that ETOH played any role here.  In fact, now I learn that her ETOH was measured at .07 at the hospital and .09 was speculation (estimation).  THERE WAS NO PROOF THAT ETOH IMPAIRED HER DRIVING.

If you go back and read my previous post, I was saying that the company dropped her because of publicity, not because of the zero-tolerance rule they cited.  So, I agree they wanted to avoid publicity; that was my point.  If you’re not going to at least make an attempt to understand my posts, why comment on them?

It does appear this girl made some bad choices.  For example, why was she able to drive 70 in a 40 and not stop at a light?  If I were in the back, I would have been screaming at the top of my lungs for her to stop.  Then I would have come around and taken the keys from her.  I submit to you, that it is our messed up (I’m trying to be polite here) culture that caused this accident.  Normal people don’t drive 70 in a 40 and they usually stop at lights.  But somehow, it is ok for us not to do so.  I have run every type of emergency in the book, and I have yet seen a reason to drive like that.

So, in conclusion, we need to make some serious changes.  First, we have to increase standards.  We need people with a certain level of maturity and intelligence.  I think anyone who gets excited about turning on a siren, is a liability.  I view the use of lights and sirens as an unfortunate necessity.  The people we are hiring to function as EVOs aren’t cutting the mustard—evidenced by the death of two men.  If we can’t raise the standards, we should consider taking away our privilege to use lights and sirens.  We’re obviously not responsible enough to use them.  Maybe then, these immature, recreational idiots would move on and we could work on making this a real profession.

Did ETOH play a role here?  Maybe.  Should we drink before we go on duty? Obviously not.  Please don’t insult our intelligence by playing the role of captain obvious.  I mean, if you really need to tell people this, then we are in serious trouble.  I guess that’s another debate.  We should focus our discussions on the real causative problem.  Blaming this tragedy on ETOH is to completely missing the mark.  The real cause is our current EMS culture that glorifies reckless behavior.

As an aside, and going back to my original post: I still believe this girl is innocent until proven guilty.  For all I know, her accelerator pedal stuck to the floor and that was the reason for her reckless driving.  Calling her a murderer and a drunk driver was wrong.  Even my above opinions are nothing more that speculation as to what happen that day.  I was not there, and I still want to give her any benefit of my doubt.  I hope you all feel the same way.


----------



## Guardian

double post


----------



## Chimpie

Guardian said:


> You obviously haven’t grasped anything I’ve said thus far. So, I’m going to be merciful and try again. I still haven’t seen conclusive proof that ETOH played any role here. In fact, now I learn that her ETOH was measured at .07 at the hospital and .09 was speculation (estimation). THERE WAS NO PROOF THAT ETOH IMPAIRED HER DRIVING.


 
Guardian, a few of us have grasped what you said. It's just that we disagree with it. Whether she was .09, .07 or .01, she had alcohol in her system when making an emergency run. She should have been at .00.



Guardian said:


> If you go back and read my previous post, I was saying that the company dropped her because of publicity, not because of the zero-tolerance rule they cited. So, I agree they wanted to avoid publicity; that was my point. If you’re not going to at least make an attempt to understand my posts, why comment on them?


 
Your thought on this is an opinion. I respect your opinion, but whether she was terminated because of the policy or the publicity will never be known unless you speak to the administration directly. I hope that it was the policy that got her terminated. I'm fine with it taking this long, as long as she wasn't allowed behind the wheel in the meantime.



Guardian said:


> It does appear this girl made some bad choices. For example, why was she able to drive 70 in a 40 and not stop at a light? If I were in the back, I would have been screaming at the top of my lungs for her to stop. Then I would have come around and taken the keys from her. I submit to you, that it is our messed up (I’m trying to be polite here) culture that caused this accident. Normal people don’t drive 70 in a 40 and they usually stop at lights. But somehow, it is ok for us not to do so. I have run every type of emergency in the book, and I have yet seen a reason to drive like that.


 
Could it have been the alcohol? :unsure:



Guardian said:


> So, in conclusion, we need to make some serious changes. First, we have to increase standards. We need people with a certain level of maturity and intelligence. I think anyone who gets excited about turning on a siren, is a liability. I view the use of lights and sirens as an unfortunate necessity. The people we are hiring to function as EVOs aren’t cutting the mustard—evidenced by the death of two men. If we can’t raise the standards, we should consider taking away our privilege to use lights and sirens. We’re obviously not responsible enough to use them. Maybe then, these immature, recreational idiots would move on and we could work on making this a real profession.
> 
> Did ETOH play a role here? Maybe. Should we drink before we go on duty? Obviously not. Please don’t insult our intelligence by playing the role of captain obvious. I mean, if you really need to tell people this, then we are in serious trouble. I guess that’s another debate. We should focus our discussions on the real causative problem. Blaming this tragedy on ETOH is to completely missing the mark. The real cause is our current EMS culture that glorifies reckless behavior.


 
Please show me where we glorify reckless behavior on a regular basis within the industry.



Guardian said:


> As an aside, and going back to my original post: I still believe this girl is innocent until proven guilty. For all I know, her accelerator pedal stuck to the floor and that was the reason for her reckless driving. Calling her a murderer and a drunk driver was wrong. Even my above opinions are nothing more that speculation as to what happen that day. I was not there, and I still want to give her any benefit of my doubt. I hope you all feel the same way.


 
I agree with you. She is innocent until proven guilty. So far some evidence has shown that she did under the influence of alcohol at limits above the legal limit. For that she should be sentenced according to law. For being under the influence (of any level) she should lose her job, which it seems she has.

Again, this is my opinion. We're all entitled to have one.


----------



## Guardian

"Please show me where we glorify reckless behavior on a regular basis within the industry."

Ever seen the youtube video of the guy singing while driving emergent?  Open your eyes.  

I doubt ETOH played a role here, for the reasons I've already given.  I did say in my last post that ETOH could have played a role.  Regardless, you are missing the larger point, if you focus on ETOH and ignore the real problem.  Oh, and as far as saying that emergent drivers shouldn't have any ETOH in their system, I agree.  How are we going to ensure this?  Send our providers to the hospital for BAC before every shift?  Everyone absorbs ETOH differently; the world is not black and white like you portray it.


----------



## Chimpie

Guardian said:


> "Please show me where we glorify reckless behavior on a regular basis within the industry."
> 
> Ever seen the youtube video of the guy singing while driving emergent? Open your eyes.


 
Let me restate with more emphasis: Please show me where we glorify reckles behavior *on a regular basis* within the industry.


----------



## Guardian

Chimpie said:


> Let me restate with more emphasis: Please show me where we glorify reckles behavior *on a regular basis* within the industry.



Open your eyes and look at how these idiots behave.  I can't produce an official document where it says, "today, lets all act like a bunch of idiots."  I am speaking of my experience.  I see people making bad choices all the time.  How many times have you seen an emergent vehicle blow though a red light or drive too fast?  I've seen it a lot, and the behavior is obviously tolerated, because it continues to happen.  My guess, the girl wasn't afraid of the consequences or what her partner would think, because she thought our culture permitted such behavior.  This is my theory/opinion/whatever you want to call it.  Do you have a better explanation for why all these people drive like idiots?  I'd love to hear it.  And don't waste anyone's time by saying it was ETOH without proof of impairment.  It doesn't account for the other 99% of ambulance collisions that occur without ETOH.


----------



## firecoins

Guardian said:


> Open your eyes and look at how these idiots behave.  I can't produce an official document where it says, "today, lets all act like a bunch of idiots."  I am speaking of my experience.  I see people making bad choices all the time.  How many times have you seen an emergent vehicle blow though a red light or drive too fast?  I've seen it a lot, and the behavior is obviously tolerated, because it continues to happen.  My guess, the girl wasn't afraid of the consequences or what her partner would think, because she thought our culture permitted such behavior.  This is my theory/opinion/whatever you want to call it.  Do you have a better explanation for why all these people drive like idiots?  I'd love to hear it.  And don't waste anyone's time by saying it was ETOH without proof of impairment.  It doesn't account for the other 99% of ambulance collisions that occur without ETOH.



If you see it why don't you complain?


----------



## VentMedic

So essentially what you are saying is that she would have killed these people anyway with or without the alcohol?  She may have been of sound mind and deliberately was driving at 70 mph and running red lights?  I don't think that will go well at trial either.  In my previous posts I did not call her a murderer. As I stated earlier, this may have been the first time she ever drove after consuming alcohol. But, if you are correct, then she is just a very irresponsible, reckless person that would have eventually killed someone without the 0.09 ETOH level. I am against drunk driving but as you have shown, this was probably an act of vehicular homicide since she was in control of what she was doing. 

Since we do have EVOC and state statutes governing the rules of the road for ambulances and she was a paid employee, not a volunteer,  she can not plead ignorance of the law.  I don't think you'll get a jury to buy "the system made her do it". But, you have made a case that it wasn't the ETOH.  No pleading down. She was not impaired. So, quilty of vehicular homicide x 2.  

Now I truly hope they go for the maximum penalty.  And, as you pointed out she did have a partner. That person also should be tried just as if he/she too was driving the ambulance that killed those two people.  

Thank you Guardian for showing me the error of my posts. She must be made an example of to send a message to the EMS culture that is promoting this reckless and deadly behavior.  

*Okay Guardian, whatever....  *<_<

The only message I wanted young people to take from this is not to make the same mistakes. Don't drink and drive regardless of how sober you feel with an alcohol level of 0.09 in your body. Drink responsibly. Keep your drinking pals out of the same trouble. And, don't work if you've been drinking and your body hasn't had enough time to detox.  Your career and life or someone else's may depend on it.


----------



## Guardian

VentMedic said:


> The only message I wanted young people to take from this is not to make the same mistakes. Don't drink and drive regardless of how sober you feel with an alcohol level of 0.09 in your body. Drink responsibly. Keep your drinking pals out of the same trouble. And, don't work if you've been drinking and your body hasn't had enough time to detox.  Your career and life or someone else's may depend on it.




Good message, poor example.  Right from the beginning, you persecuted this girl for drunk driving without sufficient evidence.  You did this to promote your own agenda.  In essence, you have sensationalized this story to make your own unrelated point that drinking and driving is wrong.  You did this at the cost of this girl’s presumption of innocence and thus turned you back on a fellow ems provider.  I believe your hearts in the right place, but you were wrong.


Yes, I am saying she would have most likely done this with or without the ETOH.  I am also saying that putting this girl in prison for murder wouldn't change anything.  Mostly because we have do gooders like you convincing people that this problem is one born out of ETOH and distracting people from the real problem.  I submit that it was our tolerated culture that killed those men.  Again, your heart may be in the right place, but you’re dead wrong on this issue and are doing more harm than good.


----------



## ffemt8978

This thread is reopened, provided everyone can abide by the forum rules and be respectful to each other.


----------



## Asclepius

Guardian -

I am on your side on this. We are so quick to eat our young in EMS. I take medication to help me sleep. What's the difference between that and having a drink several hours before my shift? I don't drink alcohol at all. Sometimes the medicine I take metabolizes faster than others. I mean to say, that sometimes I fall asleep right away and other times it takes me longer to fall asleep. I have a personal rule for myself that I will not work with less than eight hours of downtime after taking my meds. 

My point is that while she had ETOH in her system, that does not conclusively prove that it played any factor in the accident. Her stupidity in driving recklessly seems to very definitely be a major factor, but the mere fact that there was a measurable amount of ETOH does not make that the end all of the story.

Moreover, NONE of us was there. NONE of us knows all the details of incident, the conditions of the scene, or the particulars of the call. Most of you are damning this kid based on ETOH and an unfortunate chain of events. YES, it is tragic and like most every MVC, I am sure was a matter of human error and completely preventable.


----------



## firecoins

no alcohol should be in your system when operating an ambulance or teching a call.  Nuff said.


----------



## Asclepius

firecoins said:


> no alcohol should be in your system when operating an ambulance or teching a call.  Nuff said.


No, it's not "nuff said." You're simplifying the problem here. If you think that alcohol or other substances are never going to be in a persons system while working then you live in a fantasy world. I personally think that alcohol has no place in a civilized society and if we could enforce it, I'd support prohibition again....but I accept the world I live in. I am not justifying this persons actions, but I am saying that to simply say ETOH was the total issue is to say you're blind and unaware of the world you live in.


----------



## triemal04

Asclepius said:


> No, it's not "nuff said." You're simplifying the problem here. If you think that alcohol or other substances are never going to be in a persons system while working then you live in a fantasy world. I personally think that alcohol has no place in a civilized society and if we could enforce it, I'd support prohibition again....but I accept the world I live in. I am not justifying this persons actions, but I am saying that to simply say ETOH was the total issue is to say you're blind and unaware of the world you live in.



This bears repeating:  Alcohol effects everyone differently; I know for a fact that I can easily pass a field sobriety test with a BAC of .10 and that it takes a lot to get me to a .10 (not what it sounds like, trust me) and have watched someone with a BAC of .06 stand up to take the test and fall flat on her face after very few drinks. If you've been involved in EMS for any amount of time, you should know this unless you've never opened your eyes; how many times have you brought in someone who tested at .30 or higher but was still (relatively) conscious and speaking? 

Is alcohol the only issue here?  Absolutely not.  Is it wrong to say that she was in the wrong to have been drinking before/during her shift?  Absolutely not.  Is it wrong to completely disregard the fact that she had been drinking before/during her shift?  Absolutely.

Nobody knows for certain how she was acting during the call, if she was drunk or not.  All we know is that her BAC was .07something.  Which is more than enough to cause some people to have problems.  Gee...could that be the reason that coming to work with alcohol still floating in your system is a bad idea?  Why yes, yes I think that's it!

There are a whole lot of things wrong with what happened.  Human stupidity (in a bunch of ways), dumbass kids wanting to run the woowoo's and flashy thingies...booze...people not knowing what they are doing...people not caring that she'd been drinking relatively recently, if not VERY recently...lot's of things.  Alcohol is just one.  It's to bad that that is what get's focused on and everything else get's disregarded, but that still doesn't make it right or not a big deal.


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## Ridryder911

It does not matter if she had 0.8 or 100 etc. or Cymbalta, Ambien, Lortab, etc.. one that takes the responsibility of driving an vehicle is accountable for their actions. Albeit it be emergency or public vehicles. True, the public, the patients, etc. places their trust that we will be responsible not to ingest, partake in any substance that will alter our reaction time, reflexes or impedes any of our senses in driving. Period. 

Again, in this case it is irrelevant. Blowing through an intersection at 70 mph, and not being in control and killing two innocent victims is what makes her guilty. Sorry, video cam, and investigative reports still describes she was guilty. Yes, the verdict is still out... only temporary. 

What amazes me is the tolerance that we appear to have as a profession. Zero tolerance is and should be the only acceptable method. As an Emergency Profession we are quite aware of variable levels of alcohol, medications and the effects that they can promote. We need to police our own profession, and make sure that NO such tolerance is ever allowed. Our public asks of this, our families ask of this and we as a profession should be able to deliver this without any debate. 

R/r 911


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## Asclepius

Zero tolerance? So, should children be expelled from school for doodling a gun? After all, it's zero tolerance. It's a kin to raising children. I have to treat my six year-old differently than my four year-old. We have rules and consequences for their violation, but with each violation there is a different circumstance surrounding it. Zero policy stances are very difficult to manage, because there are so many scenarios.

I am certain that my meds could be found in my blood on any given day. However, I take responsibility. If I felt impaired in the slightest little bit, I would opt out of my shift.

How big was this kid? How much and what kind of alcohol had he/she ingested? How long prior to his/her shift? Is this kid on any other medication that might interact with the addition of alcohol? Does this kid have any other medical conditions (diabetic for example)? When and what was the last oral intake? How often does this kid drink and what kind of tolerance to alcohol does he/she have?

There are many circumstances surrounding this most likely preventable crash that I am sure we have no idea about. By the way RR, have you seem the video from that cam or are you basing your decision on some editorialized interpretation? That's a serious question, I just didn't know if you had some kind of resource others of us do not.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone. I am just saying we don't know everything about it and there are so many different circumstances. I have had moments driving the ambulance and my own vehicles, not necessarily on a call really, where I have been in a 45 mph zone and looked at my speedometer only to realize that I was well in excess of that. I know for me, especially at night when the lights are shining back on to the windshield, the back of the inside of truck is all lit up and the driver compartment is dark, it requires much more concentration for me than during the day. 

BTW, I read that this patient was a DNR, but did anyone say what the patient was being treated and transported for and/or what their condition was? 

I am very prideful of my profession. I take great pride in my appearance while at work. I am always conscious that I am representing my company, my EMS system, my hospitals, and the health-care industry in general. I am very cognoscente of the public relations role of my job. I am understand that my actions, appearance, and demeanor can set the tone for the rest of the patient and their family's health-care experience as the first response caregiver. 

I am not trying to trivialize this kids actions or berate our profession. Yes, the PR on this hurts the publics perception of EMS in general. It's a very unfortunate loss for everyone concerned, but WE are not the jury and the last time I checked, declaring a person guilty is their job, not ours.


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## Ridryder911

This "kid" was not a child, nor her responsibilities was of a kid. Yes, zero tolerance! Sorry, there is NO excuse of alcohol lingering in your system within the next few hours you have to work. Why should she be excused or anyone else? This was not a case of ignorance, rather she CHOSE to partake, and ingest before duty, she CHOSE to drive the vehicle in an reckless and inappropriate manner. The same as entering the intersection at 70 mph, no matter what the situation there is no reason entering an intersection at that high rate of speed, even if she was declared sober! 

We are not hear to "train" or "raise" any of these professionals. They should have met the minimal standards way before ever obtaining their certifications and license. Yes, we are to fine tune and hone their skills to build upon, but not to teach the basics of life. If they do not know the such as reckless driving, they do not need to be driving.. EMS or not. 

Again, why we are we making excuses? 

Murder is murder. Pre-intent, possibly, since she obviously knew the risks. The same if a surgeon attempts to operate while under the influence, or a pilot that is responsible for a crowded aircraft, has a few to "calm down". 

If one can't handle the responsibility associated with the job, then don't enter it. It is really simple. I watch my risks, and have been responsible as a professional. I have always known it is part of the obligation one takes when they enter this profession. I figure, if I can do it, and as well as many others, then everyone else should be able to as well. 

American Ambulance Association needs to have more intervention with EMS insurance companies. Maybe, introducing high fines or loss of coverage will change EMS administrators to start changing policies and become more actively involved. States need to monitor DWI/DUI of licensed and certified EMT's as other health professions do, and if there is an obvious trend, mandate intervention such as PEER programs. 

Sorry, this profession demands a person should have a clear and level head at all times. Rationale judgement is essential at all times, anything that could possibly interfering needs to weighed heavily. 

Sure give her a fair trial. Just as well, she and those that partake of such need to take responsibility for their actions. 

R/r 911


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## Asclepius

Ridryder911 said:


> This "kid" was not a child, nor her responsibilities was of a kid. Yes, zero tolerance! Sorry, there is NO excuse of alcohol lingering in your system within the next few hours you have to work. Why should she be excused or anyone else? This was not a case of ignorance, rather she CHOSE to partake, and ingest before duty, she CHOSE to drive the vehicle in an reckless and inappropriate manner. The same as entering the intersection at 70 mph, no matter what the situation there is no reason entering an intersection at that high rate of speed, even if she was declared sober!


How old was she? I know lots of EMT-B's that are barely 18. Ever make bad choices when you were 18? I know I did; some more serious than others.



> We are not hear to "train" or "raise" any of these professionals. They should have met the minimal standards way before ever obtaining their certifications and license.



I disagree with you. We're always students and it IS our job to pass on our experience and knowledge. Do you think this young lady didn't know how to drive before she got in that ambulance. Do you think her company would have let her work the streets without believing she was competent? How naive are you?



> Again, why we are we making excuses?


No one is making excuses...we're simply saying we weren't there and there is all kinds of reasons why the events could have unfolded the way they did.



> Murder is murder. Pre-intent, possibly, since she obviously knew the risks. The same if a surgeon attempts to operate while under the influence, or a pilot that is responsible for a crowded aircraft, has a few to "calm down".



I'm sorry RR...you have convinced me that this evil murdering young lady willfully got out of bed that day and consciously thought to herself that she was going to go to purposely go to work after having consumed alcohol and seek out a DNR patient and an intersection in which she could enter an intersection at the same time as another car because she wanted to kill someone that day. I have seen the light.... Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? 

That's what and how it would have had to go down to be a murder charge. Best you can hope for is a manslaughter charge and even then you're stretching.



> American Ambulance Association needs to have more intervention with EMS insurance companies. Maybe, introducing high fines or loss of coverage will change EMS administrators to start changing policies and become more actively involved. States need to monitor DWI/DUI of licensed and certified EMT's as other health professions do, and if there is an obvious trend, mandate intervention such as PEER programs.


Wait...now I am really confused. Is this tragic accident now the fault of the employer, because I was under the impression the "murderer" was the driver?



> Sorry, this profession demands a person should have a clear and level head at all times. Rationale judgment is essential at all times, anything that could possibly interfering needs to weighed heavily.


No, it really doesn't. It requires that a person have a level head most of the time, but we are all human beings and as such we sometimes are not all that we should be. I know I make mistakes. I know I have had calls that left me flustered or that I really had to work hard to get through. I routinely walk away from calls thinking that I could have done things differently and I always try to learn from it.

I really respect your technical knowledge RR. I always learn something from the answers you give on this site to people with questions. I also respect the high standard you place on our profession and those serving in it. I am just at a loss, though, with your condemning nature all of the sudden. Out of curiosity, have you ever experienced a loss from a situation like this or somehow been involved with an experience similar personally or maybe as an employee of a company that had something like this happen? You just seem so passionate about it so I thought I would ask.


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## VentMedic

Since we do have many young people here on this forum, what are you saying?

Zero tolerance policies are unfair?

Are the standards for EMS too high? 

Is it too much to ask an employee not to show up to work with alcohol in their system?

It's okay to have few drinks and drive an ambulance if you feel you can handle it?

Would you be okay with a partner driving that had a few drinks prior to shift? 

If you don't want the person driving the ambulance to take responsibility for his/her actions and you don't want the ambulance company to be proactive, then who? 

By not setting standards, policies and examples of acceptable behavior, is anyone or the profession going to be helped?

Is it too much to ask to take care of each other and report unsafe driving and substance use without being labeled by others for snitching against one of our own? 

What happens to this young woman of 22 will be up to the court. But, are you saying it is okay for a member of the EMS profession to do ANY of her mistakes and expect the rest of the professionals to excuse the behavior? 



> I disagree with you. We're always students and it IS our job to pass on our experience and knowledge. Do you think this young lady didn't know how to drive before she got in that ambulance. Do you think her company would have let her work the streets without believing she was competent? How naive are you?



Are you saying she knew how to drive or not drive? Reckless at 70 mph? And of course you seem sure it was not alcohol?   She had no previous record and I gave her the benefit of the doubt that this was her first time of being stupid at having alcohol in her system at work.  I was told I was wrong in an earlier post because alcohol of 0.9 could not affect a young woman of 22 that looks like average weight of not more than 140.  So was she just a pure stupid reckless driver on that one night?

I guess all I really want to know is do you think it is okay to have even 0.01 alcohol in your body (never mind the 0.09) and drive an ambulance?  Do you think that that a person can willingly drink prior to shift, knowingly go to work and drive an ambulance?

Forget the young woman and the two victims.

Do you believe in zero tolerance for alcohol in your blood at work?


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## Asclepius

VentMedic said:


> I guess all I really want to know is do you think it is okay to have even 0.01 alcohol in your body (never mind the 0.09) and drive an ambulance?  Do you think that that a person can willingly drink prior to shift, knowingly go to work and drive an ambulance?


I think that a person who has been drinking prior to the start of their shift should not be operating an ambulance. But with that being said, I also understand that .01 or more could be present even if the person has stopped drinking hours before the call. I am not giving her a free pass and saying she is innocent, but neither am I condemning her. I know too many things could have played into what the results were. I'm just so disappointed with all you guys being so closed minded. 

What have the reports been concerning her actions since the crash? Is she remorseful? Is she taking any of the responsibility on herself? or is she just fighting for her survival?

Tragic though it is, us adding all our combined condemnation on this person, who, I am convinced, most likely meant well is not going to do anything productive. It certainly doesn't speak highly of a bunch of people who want to positively promote our profession while we're crucifying those that have made bad choices; especially choices we don't know all the facts on.


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## ffemt8978

For those that think we are hasty in our judgment because of the alcohol factor, let me ask you these questions:

1) At what BAC should we, as EMS professionals, draw the line for reporting to duty?

2) If you want to make an exception for someone, what happens when you have to make the same exception for the next person, and the next, and the next?

3) At what BAC do you think the alcohol affects a person's judgment and reaction times?

4) At what impairment level should we draw another line for driving an ambulance?

5) If her BAC at the hospital was .07, and was figured backwards to .092 at the time of the accident, what do you think her BAC was when she left the station, or even responded to the station?

Personally, I think Zero Tolerance/Zero Impairment should be our goal, our standard, and our minimum acceptable level.  While it may not be a realistic goal, it will never be possible if we don't try for it.


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## Guardian

I've always been the first to proudly admit that I am idealistic.  I completely agree that zero tolerance should be our goal, when we are deciding whether we fire an employee or not.  But a charge of murder is different.  In that case, you should have to prove whether or not alcohol was the cause of the problem.  And if you can't show that it was the actual cause, then it becomes nothing more than a subjective sign of immaturity, stupidity, etc.

It amazes me that we are still talking about ETOH and ignoring the real problems in this particular incident.


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## eggshen

"every type of emergency in the book"? Is that the nursing home book? Every type? I mean really...that is a lot of emergencies. Wow, much emergencies for that fellow. There really is no end to the type of things crackerjack NH nurses can call for. Check....check....can we please solicit some advice from a medic that can run a call on the street...not in the nifty, forgiving ether that seems to suit some. Bet there is an o2 wrench on that belt. Missed you.

Egg


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## triemal04

Asclepius said:


> How old was she? I know lots of EMT-B's that are barely 18. Ever make bad choices when you were 18? I know I did; some more serious than others.



Well, then I suppose by that reasoning nobody should be allowed to be an EMT until they are much older.  :censored::censored::censored::censored:'s sake, what is the matter with you people?  Gaurdian...asclepius...how can you do this job and still stand up and say this crap?  Are you actually trying to condone people who show up for work after drinking?  And I'm not talking 8-12 hours after their last drink, but within an hour or two or less.  It's wrong.  I don't care what else she did wrong, she came to work after drinking.  And soon enough so that there was .09 in her system, and then .07 later.  Do the math and see what that shows.

Yes, there were a whole lot of things wrong with this situation.  Alcohol is the one that has been focused on, because it is the most easily fixed problem out of all of them, and one of the biggest that we as a society, and sub-set face.  If you want to cut people slack for what they do, that's fine.  But make sure that you can live with the consequences.

To say that we should not condemn her for her BAC is to say that it was not a problem, and that her actions (drinking prior to or during her shift) were acceptable.  Is that what you really want to say?


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## Asclepius

ffemt8978 said:


> For those that think we are hasty in our judgment because of the alcohol factor, let me ask you these questions:
> 
> 1) At what BAC should we, as EMS professionals, draw the line for reporting to duty?
> 
> 2) If you want to make an exception for someone, what happens when you have to make the same exception for the next person, and the next, and the next?
> 
> 3) At what BAC do you think the alcohol affects a person's judgment and reaction times?
> 
> 4) At what impairment level should we draw another line for driving an ambulance?
> 
> 5) If her BAC at the hospital was .07, and was figured backwards to .092 at the time of the accident, what do you think her BAC was when she left the station, or even responded to the station?
> 
> Personally, I think Zero Tolerance/Zero Impairment should be our goal, our standard, and our minimum acceptable level.  While it may not be a realistic goal, it will never be possible if we don't try for it.





triemal04 said:


> Well, then I suppose by that reasoning nobody should be allowed to be an EMT until they are much older.  :censored::censored::censored::censored:'s sake, what is the matter with you people?  Gaurdian...asclepius...how can you do this job and still stand up and say this crap?  Are you actually trying to condone people who show up for work after drinking?  And I'm not talking 8-12 hours after their last drink, but within an hour or two or less.  It's wrong.  I don't care what else she did wrong, she came to work after drinking.  And soon enough so that there was .09 in her system, and then .07 later.  Do the math and see what that shows.
> 
> Yes, there were a whole lot of things wrong with this situation.  Alcohol is the one that has been focused on, because it is the most easily fixed problem out of all of them, and one of the biggest that we as a society, and sub-set face.  If you want to cut people slack for what they do, that's fine.  But make sure that you can live with the consequences.
> 
> To say that we should not condemn her for her BAC is to say that it was not a problem, and that her actions (drinking prior to or during her shift) were acceptable.  Is that what you really want to say?



obviously your reading and interpretational skills need to be burshed up on. No one has condoned it. we simply understand that there is more to it than meets the eye. You all are the ones who are missing the bigger picture, becuase you've condemned this lady and done so without any explanation from her as to what was going on at the time. Sorry to say, I wouldn't want to have any of you as a partner. You'd sell me out the first chance you had.

Good night, and God Bless.


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## Ridryder911

I guess  I am passionate, because we had to discharge two Paramedics within the past two weeks to similar problems. Without going into great detail, one was an excellent veteran Paramedic that I would allow to treat any of my family member and I would place against anyone in medical knowledge. The other a promising new Paramedic. Both now, their careers probably tragically cut short because of poor personal decisions. 

Unfortunately, many turned their heads and made excuses instead of actually dealing with the problems head on. Allowing such behavior in the workforce is condoning and enabling the person. Sorry, when one enters the workforce as a "professional" then there are obligations that one automatically assumes. This is not just passion, but understanding the responsibilities that comes with that position. There are NO excuses allowed, and if one cannot handle that type of responsibility, then they should not even consider or enter this profession. 

This job requires much more than just knowledge in health care. There is a problem if one would ever have to worry about a random drug or alcohol screen at work. Unfortunately, most EMS do not require such because they would have to offer drug rehabilitation. Personally, I feel it would be a great idea to have such and EMS should require it. 

I find it ironic that the nursing profession takes this much more seriously than EMS. In comparison, in my state; if one is found to be under the influence or impaired, or have been accused of narcotics at the work site, the nurse is assumed guilty until proven innocent by the Board. The reason is for the safety of the citizens. One has to prove to the board their innocence, and that there were special circumstances to allow them to behave, act, and operate. I have yet seen this to occur. Most of those have to either relinquish their license or go through an intense PEER program for one year, (at their costs) and be closely monitored, then be placed upon probation as determined by the board. 

So yes, most medical professions take this seriously, just a shame as usual EMS does not take a stand.

Is the employer responsible? You bet! Await the civil law suit. They are responsible for their employees actions. This will be an endless fault, from the senior partner, shift supervisor to the administrator, etc. All responsible for their employees actions and behavior. This is why EMS has to mature and actually become a profession understanding its responsibilities. 

Hopefully, there will be some positive outcomes from this and other tragic events. If there is enough paid out from insurance companies, they will enforce changes. 
I foresee:
Mandatory EVOC before any driving of an EMS unit. Not a simple 8 hour driving in and out of cones, but an enhance 2 week driving program, which should be required already before anyone gets behind the wheel. 

Training and education of supervisory positions to assess for "problems" in behavior in the work force. Increasing "black box" to monitor driving and increasing awareness programs of employees. 

Larger services will start having developing "random" drug and alcohol testing. Hopefully, with services offering help and assistance for those found affected. 

States EMS office will actually become what they should be. License and regulatory centers, that their primary responsibility is to assure safety to the public. Develop programs to assist those that are affected such as PEER programs, and monitor those persons. 

Believe it or not, I personally am not for the government to ever be involved. Unfortunately, our profession will not be responsible, or police itself, therefore someone has to do it. If there is enough teeth in it; then most will comply. 

I guess my passion is until we can clean up or own act we will never really be considered a profession. I have worked with literally a thousand partners, and yes, several I refused to work with or sent home. A situtation I should had never been placed in. A mature responsible person, would had never considered placing or jeopardizing anyone elses life. Again, this reflects back to the profession. 

Like I said before: It's time for EMS and those involved in it, to grow up. Be responsible for their action and reactions. Regardless of this specific case, we have too many EVO incidents and accidents. One person dying is too many. We are here to save a life, not take any. It is time for us to be pro-active. 

R/r 911


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## triemal04

Asclepius said:


> obviously your reading and interpretational skills need to be burshed up on. No one has condoned it. we simply understand that there is more to it than meets the eye. You all are the ones who are missing the bigger picture, becuase you've condemned this lady and done so without any explanation from her as to what was going on at the time. Sorry to say, I wouldn't want to have any of you as a partner. You'd sell me out the first chance you had.
> 
> Good night, and God Bless.



No, no and no.  You don't seem to get it do you little fella?  By demanding that nobody consider alcohol as part of the problem, by demanding that we ignore the fact that she had been drinking, by demanding that we only look at things unrelated to her BAC and ignore it, you ARE condoning her drinking.  It doesn't matter if there were more problems there; of course there are, I think everybody has said that at some point.  But alcohol was one of them, and your insistence that we ignore it and do nothing about it seems to indicate that you don't care and don't consider it an issue.  I'm curious why that is.  Had that problem yourself at some point?  And your refusal to answer some very basic questions says quite a bit about you and how you feel about this issue.

And don't even try to bring up the partner-loyalty issue.  You've watched to many movies, to many TV shows, and apparently have far to little experience working in the real world.  I will go to any length for any partner of mine and anyone who is part of my crew.  Any length.  But all that means in this situation is that when I walked in and smelled alcohol on their breath is that the responce would have been "call in sick NOW and get your dumbass out of here NOW.  And we'll be talking about this very soon."  No good partner would let someone drive after drinking, or even show up to work a couple hours after the last glass.  No good partner anyway.  Stop watching TV and start living in reality for awhile.


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## Asclepius

triemal04 said:


> No, no and no.  You don't seem to get it do you little fella?  By demanding that nobody consider alcohol as part of the problem, by demanding that we ignore the fact that she had been drinking, by demanding that we only look at things unrelated to her BAC and ignore it, you ARE condoning her drinking.


Again, I would send you back to a comprehension class. Show me one time when I, or anyone else, has demanded that alcohol not be a consideration or to ignore the BAC. The only point we've been making is that we weren't there and that we're sure there was more going on than just ETOH. We also mad the point that ETOH affects everyone differently and that it may or may not be a sizable reason for the events that transpired in this case.



> And don't even try to bring up the partner-loyalty issue.  You've watched to many movies, to many TV shows, and apparently have far to little experience working in the real world.


Here you go making assumptions again. You seem to know everything about me, despite the fact we don't know each other. I have nothing to prove to you. I'm quite capable in my experience and abilities, so I won't dignify your characterizations with a rebuttal.


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## Chimpie

This thread is done.


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## ffemt8978

It looks like the driver is now going to court to face charges:

*Pennsylvania Rescuer Headed to Trial Over Fatal Crash*


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