# Been "swarmed" yet?



## mycrofft (Jul 27, 2009)

A friend was in a minor MVA, no injuries, but the other motorist was hysterical and angry, got on the cell phone and as LE rolled up, so did a few cars with angry friends and family raring to fight. Another friend who was a deputy coroner said she had heard of that sort of thing but not seen it personally.
Anyone experience it yet?


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## Sasha (Jul 27, 2009)

mycrofft said:


> A friend was in a minor MVA, no injuries, but the other motorist was hysterical and angry, got on the cell phone and as LE rolled up, so did a few cars with angry friends and family raring to fight. Another friend who was a deputy coroner said she had heard of that sort of thing but not seen it personally.
> Anyone experience it yet?



It happened to my cousin, almost got his butt handed to him but the LEO showed up. (would have done him good to get his butt kicked, though. )


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## Hockey (Jul 27, 2009)

Yep seen it first hand while at work and also involved.  


Both times, people were on the ground sprawled out at gun point


Just got to remember, there is always more coming


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## exodus (Jul 27, 2009)

One of the reasons I agree with Conceal Carry...


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## HotelCo (Jul 27, 2009)

mycrofft said:


> A friend was in a minor MVA, no injuries, but the other motorist was hysterical and angry, got on the cell phone and as LE rolled up, so did a few cars with angry friends and family raring to fight. Another friend who was a deputy coroner said she had heard of that sort of thing but not seen it personally.
> Anyone experience it yet?



I'd leave if I could. Perhaps goto my car to get my information, and then book it down the road and call police. Sorry, I'd rather risk get charged with leaving the scene of an accident than getting my butt kicked by an angry mob.


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## HotelCo (Jul 27, 2009)

exodus said:


> One of the reasons I agree with Conceal Carry...



What would you do? Show them your gun and think everything would go away? Pull it? Bad idea. I agree with conceal carry and am a big proponent of gun owners rights but, there isn't a need to pull a firearm into this situation. That wouldn't end well.


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## Shishkabob (Jul 27, 2009)

Wasn't "swarmed", but had a road-rage incident happen to me on Saturday on the way to class.


Was driving to school.  Another driver had a yield sign, but tried to pass and got cut off by the car infront of him.  He got angry, got behind me and started honking and flashing his lights.  I drive on, exit, and he follows, still doing the honking.  I call 911 and start telling the dispatcher what's going on.


Get up to a yield sign, and the car in front of me stops, so I stop.  The driver gets out of his car, walks up to mine, and starts banging on my window yelling.  I told the dispatcher his license plate, car model and make, and general description as I drive off. The dispatcher ask where I was at and I told her I'd be in a Chase bank parking lot in about 20 seconds-- she says there are a couple of police officers nearby.

I enter the parking lot and he follows.  Suddenly, he turns to leave and gets back on the road to get on the highway, and I tell the dispatcher.  She yelled to another dispatcher what was going on, who relayed it to the cops.  At this time a cop car comes speeding around the corner and pulls him over.  Another cop joins seconds later and they force him out and on the ground at gunpoint.




My face ---- ^_^


Not really a swarm, but same general idea.   If you want a real "swarm" I have one from my EMT clinical time.


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## ffemt8978 (Jul 27, 2009)

Just about every MVA or assault call we go on, we're swarmed by various family members and gang members.

That's where I learned that swinging a backboard in a big arc as I'm getting it in place to put the patient on it will cause the "sea to part" so to speak.

We've had "swarmers" get arrested, and even tased while we were on scene so our local LEO's are aware of the problem.  We usually designate one or two firefighters on scene to watch the crowd, and that becomes their sole job while we're on scene.


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## medic417 (Jul 27, 2009)

ffemt8978 said:


> We usually designate one or two firefighters on scene to watch the crowd, and that becomes their sole job while we're on scene.



So you finally found a way to get fire fighters out of the recliners?

Scenes though can erupt quickly.


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## Hockey (Jul 28, 2009)

ffemt8978 said:


> Just about every MVA or assault call we go on, we're swarmed by various family members and gang members.
> 
> That's where I learned that swinging a backboard in a big arc as I'm getting it in place to put the patient on it will cause the "sea to part" so to speak.
> 
> We've had "swarmers" get arrested, and even tased while we were on scene so our local LEO's are aware of the problem.  We usually designate one or two firefighters on scene to watch the crowd, and that becomes their sole job while we're on scene.




Are you saying you show aggression to the public?!?! How DARE you! 



(Hopefully you know I'm just kidding by that  )


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## AnthonyM83 (Jul 28, 2009)

That's quite common in many areas. If that starts happening on a call, whether it be worried family or angry family, finish up you most basic ABC's and do the rest inside the ambulance. Angry yelling can easily degrade to angry shoving, despite you trying to help their friend if they think you're not going fast enough, not doing the correct treatment, or if you try get them out of your way once they've latched on to the patient.

For the more "violent" calls, you can easily have several dozen to over a hundred people crowd your scene in a residential area.


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## Summit (Jul 28, 2009)

In other countries, particularly South America, it is not uncommon for there to be violence begotten upon the victim judged to be the cause... even if they are already severely injured.


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## ffemt8978 (Jul 28, 2009)

Hockey said:


> Are you saying you show aggression to the public?!?! How DARE you!
> 
> 
> 
> (Hopefully you know I'm just kidding by that  )



Me show aggression?  NEVER!!!  

I'm trying to position my equipment to treat the patient, that's all.


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## Cory (Jul 28, 2009)

exodus said:


> One of the reasons I agree with Conceal Carry...



Ridiculous, they get angry so your going to shoot ALL of them? You get the chance to pull it out, and your cover is already blown. You MIGHT get lucky enough to shoot one, but then you've got everyone else on you, and the cops are suddenly against you too.


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## reaper (Jul 28, 2009)

Cory said:


> Ridiculous, they get angry so your going to shoot ALL of them? You get the chance to pull it out, and your cover is already blown. You MIGHT get lucky enough to shoot one, but then you've got everyone else on you, and the cops are suddenly against you too.



Lets see, me vs 20 angry people, looking to hurt or kill me. Yeah, I have no problem taking out as many as possible!

Until you have been in the middle of a riot scene, you will not understand the mentality that arises!


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## HotelCo (Jul 28, 2009)

reaper said:


> Lets see, me vs 20 angry people, looking to hurt or kill me. Yeah, I have no problem taking out as many as possible!



I disagree. Do you really think that you'll make the situation better by killing people? How do you know they aren't carrying as well? 

Congrats. You've just made a bad situation, worse.


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## AnthonyM83 (Jul 28, 2009)

Pulling a gun on an angry crowd in some areas would be a good way to get yourself smoked.


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## Cory (Jul 28, 2009)

reaper said:


> Lets see, me vs 20 angry people, looking to hurt or kill me. Yeah, I have no problem taking out as many as possible!
> 
> Until you have been in the middle of a riot scene, you will not understand the mentality that arises!



For some reason you seem to believe they will all run when you pull out aa gun. What if they have guns? Then you really think you can take out that many people before they get you?


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## mycrofft (Jul 28, 2009)

*I liked Linuss's police swarm.*

And that was in Texas, home of the armed and the polite.
As in "An armed society is a polite society".Glad you made it out OK Linuss.


Without pointing at ANYONE, the firearm thing is moot here, please go peddle your childish fantasies elsewhere in existant threads.


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## reaper (Jul 28, 2009)

> I disagree. Do you really think that you'll make the situation better by killing people? How do you know they aren't carrying as well?
> 
> Congrats. You've just made a bad situation, worse.



I am talking a true mob mentality! If it is just a few angry family on scene, they can be talked down or let LEO handle it. If in your lifetime, you ever have the displeasure of working in a real riot scene, you will soon learn that they will kill you for the fun of it. Yes, I would defend myself to the end!




> For some reason you seem to believe they will all run when you pull out aa gun. What if they have guns? Then you really think you can take out that many people before they get you?


I sure as hell would not stand by and be beat to death, for their pleasure!




> Without pointing at ANYONE, the firearm thing is moot here, please go peddle your childish fantasies elsewhere in existant threads.



These are all spoken by ones that have never experienced real riot situations! As said, if this is a true riot, then you better be prepared to defend yourself to the end. You can only hope that they will run after the first few shots and give you a chance to retreat!

If this is just a few people, then try to talk them down or retreat. Leave the Pt, leave the equipment, just retreat to a safe place.


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## Shishkabob (Jul 28, 2009)

mycrofft said:


> And that was in Texas, home of the armed and the polite.
> As in "An armed society is a polite society".Glad you made it out OK Linuss.


 Thanks

I was about to open up a can of kick-butt on him, but didn't feel like getting my clothes dirty before class.


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## Sasha (Jul 28, 2009)

Linuss said:


> Thanks
> 
> I was about to open up a can of kick-butt on him, but realized I couldn't kick a six year old's butt much less that guy.



Fixed it for you!


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## Shishkabob (Jul 28, 2009)

I know how to wield a stethoscope as a weapon, thank you very much!


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## Sasha (Jul 28, 2009)

Linuss said:


> I know how to wield a stethoscope as a weapon, thank you very much!



Flailing it around while squealing and hoping to hit them does not constitute using it as a weapon


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## medic417 (Jul 28, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Flailing it around while squealing and hoping to hit them does not constitute using it as a weapon



Linus squeals like little girl?


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## Shishkabob (Jul 28, 2009)

The squealing is meant to distract them!

Leave me alone!


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## reaper (Jul 28, 2009)

If you get the pitch high enough, they will run!


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## Sasha (Jul 28, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Linus squeals like little girl?



Oh yes, he does. His voice cracks too.


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## Shishkabob (Jul 28, 2009)

reaper said:


> If you get the pitch high enough, they will run!



And possibly break their windshield.

Good luck following me if you can't see me!


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## Seaglass (Jul 28, 2009)

I've never had that happen, but I've heard horror stories. I'm usually pretty good at getting people to calm down, so I'd be very worried if a crowd started forming and getting angry. I'd either take the patient and run, or have to call some help. 

And as much as I like pistols, no way I'd take one into that situation.


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## mycrofft (Jul 28, 2009)

*Ahem....CV following.*

Three years street EMT, twenty plus years working with law enforcement, multiple colleagues likewise employed but as sworn officers, as well as twenty-two years in USAF and Guard. Qualified in M-9 and M-16, with accompanying LOAC and Lethal Force training.

Linuss, don't take offense except maybe to make a chivalrous defense of the proud state and former contry (like California) of Texas. And I can show you how to wield your 'scope as a blinding whirr of tubing and tips, I calls 'em " 'Scope-chuks".h34r:

Answer to increasing hostility on scene is snatch and run, and if they want their cousin or sister or whomever, let 'em have that pt.


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## Shishkabob (Jul 28, 2009)

"Linuss, don't take offense except maybe to make a chivalrous defense of the proud state and former contry (like California)"

Wait. What would I take offense about?  Was I insulted?


Ps- I'm not a Texan. I'm a Michigander living in Texas


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## mycrofft (Jul 29, 2009)

*Well, nope, only a native son of Texas would look to whup me*

for noting that guin carrying states have no per capita improvement in violent crime statistics.
(Hey, if I can spend the middle decade of my life in Nebraska from CA, then Texas isn't all that out of the question.)

But we were talking about civilian use of wireless commo to initiate their escape from LE, or to punish someone.


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## Shishkabob (Jul 29, 2009)

Don't get me wrong, I'm still pro-carry and in 2 weeks when I turn 21, I plan on taking a CCW class, even thought I don't plan to carry.


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## Tincanfireman (Jul 29, 2009)

medic417 said:


> So you finally found a way to get fire fighters out of the recliners?


 
Now now, be nice...

(I know you're kidding, but I had to say something...lol)


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## mycrofft (Jul 29, 2009)

*The radio is mightier than the weapon*

'cause you can call in so many, many MORE weapons.


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## medic417 (Jul 29, 2009)

I'll take both thank you.  And even throw a phone in there.  

When it comes down to me left alone with no way out and help is still not there and my life is actually at risk, I want some option rather than just death.  Perhaps the firearm wakes them up or at least buys time for the calvary to get there.


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## Cory (Jul 29, 2009)

medic417 said:


> I'll take both thank you.  And even throw a phone in there.
> 
> When it comes down to me left alone with no way out and help is still not there and my life is actually at risk, I want some option rather than just death.  Perhaps the firearm wakes them up or at least buys time for the calvary to get there.



Or maybe it just gives them a reason to kill you faster. And if they had any reason not to kill you before, those are now gone.


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## medic417 (Jul 29, 2009)

mycrofft said:


> for noting that guin carrying states have no per capita improvement in violent crime statistics.
> (Hey, if I can spend the middle decade of my life in Nebraska from CA, then Texas isn't all that out of the question.)
> .





 Between 1995 and 2004, handgun murders in Texas dropped by 18 percent. Gun owners proved to be much less likely than their peers to be arrested for non-violent crimes and violent crimes, including murder. And even though Texas (in 2004) had a population three million larger than when the bill was passed, the overall crime rate was lower in 2004-5,032 crimes per 100,000 Texans, as opposed to 5,478 crimes per 100,000. 

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Concealed+carry+law+and+crime+in+Texas-a0144563309


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## medic417 (Jul 29, 2009)

Cory said:


> Or maybe it just gives them a reason to kill you faster. And if they had any reason not to kill you before, those are now gone.



The firearm is never pulled until life is threatened.  They are intent on killing you at least you have a fighting chance if armed.  Pulling the gun is not giving them reason to kill hopefully it gives them reason to pause long enough for help to get there.


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## Shishkabob (Jul 29, 2009)

Cory said:


> Or maybe it just gives them a reason to kill you faster. And if they had any reason not to kill you before, those are now gone.


And how are you to tell one way or the other what their intentions are?

If they are approaching you in an aggressive manner, you react accordingly.


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## mycrofft (Jul 29, 2009)

*And so we are back on the gun thing again.*

Partly my fault.
GO to the "Should EMS Be Armed?" thread, why not?<_<


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## medic417 (Jul 29, 2009)

mycrofft said:


> Partly my fault.
> GO to the "Should EMS Be Armed?" thread, why not?<_<



Actually it ties in nicely here as to various ways to deal with a swarm.


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## Shishkabob (Jul 29, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Actually it ties in nicely here as to various ways to deal with a swarm.


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## MrRevesz (Jul 29, 2009)

If you live in a more city-like area with clubs that are open late into the evening, those can get out of hand fast, especially if it's a fight


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## NJN (Jul 29, 2009)

This is true going into gang or ethnic related club fights, the police do pretty well with keeping onlookers away from us and the Pt but when we're moving to the rig i've seen other fights break out again.


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## AnthonyM83 (Jul 31, 2009)

NJNewbie196 said:


> This is true going into gang or ethnic related club fights, the police do pretty well with keeping onlookers away from us and the Pt but when we're moving to the rig i've seen other fights break out again.



While PD here try to protect us, it's not guaranteed. And I don't mean that in the 1 in 1,000 chance way. There have been multiple scenes we enter at PD's request only to realize something changed from the time they motioned us in to the time we walked up. We've had PD wrestling on floor with suspects, we've had an EMT holding c-spine have suspect return and finish the patient off (firing handgun inches from EMT's head), we've had situations where PD is on-scene, but they're still outnumbered 30 to 200 with people throwing bottles.

Not to try to sound too glorious...but really it's load and go sometimes. Don't count on PD watching your back.


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