# Pressure Point Techniques



## emskyusho (Dec 19, 2006)

Hello All. My name is James Greenwood. I am a developer and trainer of new techniques for EMT personnel using pressure points, rather than "brute force" to help control combative patients, and more.
Perhaps I should explain.
I am a 5th degree black belt (Master Level) of Kyusho Jitsu. Before you get scared by the thought of karate, please understand that one does not need ANY experience in any form of martial arts to use these techniques!
In my seminars and classes, I teach EMS personnel how to safely and effectively restrain a patient using simple methods with just a touch in the right place.
This is very new, innovative, ground-breaking and revolutionary material that is positioned to take the world by storm. These simple techniques can make your job easier and safer for both you and the patient. 
I have already trained a number of EMT's and they are all amazed at the effectiveness and simplicity of these non-intrusive methods. This system has been tested and proven. If you are interested in learning more you may contact me directly, or I have a DVD available at http://www.kyusho.com/superstore.htm. I am also available to teach seminars. Please note that I am not just some guy trying to sell something. I have helped many EMT's but it is my goal to help many more with this system that I have been studying for the past 8 years. 
Thanks!


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## Chimpie (Dec 20, 2006)

Welcome to EMTLife!

I know someone who looks forward to talking with you.


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## Summit (Dec 20, 2006)

Chimpie said:


> I know someone who looks forward to talking with you.



who oh who could it be


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## emskyusho (Dec 20, 2006)

Thanks for your interest. I have updated my profile with all of my contact information, including my website (www.kyushokarateusa.com). I'll admit though, the site is in the process of being updated (somewhat overdue). But it is full of lots of interesting information. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me at jimgreenwoodkarateusa@hotmail.com.  EMS Kyusho will be featured in some EMS magazines in the upcoming year... be watching for it!


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## DT4EMS (Dec 20, 2006)

Welcome to EMTlife. 

Good luck on your endeavor. I think you will find pressure points work well on people who feel pain. 

I am totally against teaching pessure points in the field to EMS for anything other than a distration. If pressure points are taught for "control" that is a farce. I have had to fight intoxicated and drugged people in the past...... and being the department's DT instructor I had to try and "prove" certain things worked. Well........... pressure points (aside from a Brachial Stun and the Common Peroneal) were not effective. 

We teach pressure points during a DT4EMS class.......... the funny thing is more people than not (avg 60%) have no effect of at least one or more. So my students see the value in them maybe "creating space to escape" but useless in control.

The studies (accepted b the NAEMSP's position paper) state it takes a MINIMUM of 5 people to properly "medically" restrain a person. That needs to be kept in mind while training EMS.

I agree with not teaching brute force. The EMS setting is unlike any other in the world. EMS providers are thrust into numerous types of scenes and situations. Teaching force on force and then to claim self-defense is not always that easy.

It has been through my own experience and research in talking with hundreds of EMS providers the "usual" attacker is usually high ordrugged. Most professional EMS providers to a great job of "customer service" which is the best self-defense. If they are on an unsafe scene they need to work to leave....... period.

Teaching LEO DT or martial arts to an EMS provider, specifically one who does not train on a regular basis, is only setting the provider up for problems........ both on the street and in the courtroom afterwards.

Again good luck. I think you will find that any type of EMS self-defense course will be a huge undertaking. If an EMS provider happens to be a regular student of yours then the point is mute. They already learn the mindset, how to read body posture, how to run and how to take charge of their own physical fitness.


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## emskyusho (Dec 20, 2006)

As I said before, this material is revolutionary. It is no surprise that very few people know about pressure points, or their potential. First off, let me explain further how this works. Kyusho Jitsu is based on the acupuncture points on the body. When a certain point is manipulated in just the right way, it interrupts the body’s neurological response of the nervous system.  The main rule that you have to follow when striking pressure points is to use the correct angle and direction for each point, and how each one is activated by striking, pressing, or rubbing. All of these rules must be followed in order for the pressure points to work. This is why so many people have tried and failed and then say that Kyusho Jitsu doesn't work and it's fake. They are just doing it wrong, don't want to admit it and/or don't realize it.

While I say that this is “new and revolutionary”, I only mean that in the EMS sense, and to Westerners. Kyusho Jitsu actually originated in Okinawa thousands of years ago, but was a very well-kept secret. It wasn’t until Tiaka Oyata brought it over in the 1980’s that anybody outside of Okinawa knew anything about this. I originally began learning Kyusho from GrandMaster George Dillman, and Master D.M. Hurst who were among Oyata’s first American students. Dillman trained alongside Bruce Lee until Lee’s death.

That being said, I understand that there is bound to be some initial skepticism regarding this. People were once skeptical of seat belts, too. 

Kyusho can be used as MORE than just a fighting technique. I _can _teach “hitting”, but in restraint techniques I teach pressing – not strikes. While it is important for EMS personnel to know good self-defense, that’s just a small part. If a patient is flailing their arm and you are trying to insert an I.V. wouldn’t it be nice to be able to hold that arm completely still without injuring the patient? You do not need 5 people to restrain one person. That is what I am teaching.

And in response to your last point, I do not just teach my own students. I hold seminars for EMS personnel, and have never received anything but rave reviews about the progress that I am making. It may be something you have to experience to believe. This really does work, if properly trained. I offer a full money-back guarantee on my seminars. It takes PROPER training to learn Kyusho pressure point techniques – not just one or two random points shown improperly. It takes proper instruction, just as it requires proper instruction to be an EMT or to do anything else.


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## DT4EMS (Dec 20, 2006)

Please understand I do not doubt your system or “techniques”. What I am saying is that I am a martial artist, a police officer and a paramedic. Those three things are separate. 

 I was a PPCT (Pressure Point Control Tactics) Instructor for police officers. You can ask the majority of people I “touch” in training know that I understand what I am doing. But nothing is 100%.
 PPCT went through tons of research including that of martial practitioners and western medicine physicians as well. Then PPCT has been on the streets for quite some time. Since it’s adoption, many officers on the street have found many of the pressure points to be ineffective on people that are high or drunk.

I take the training of EMS in pressure points one step further…….. we give them a medical reason “why” something will or won’t work. But to teach “pain compliance” to EMS is heading in the wrong direction. Like I said before, teaching a self-defense seminar is one thing, but to teach the EMS provider is something totally different.

I am all for you training and conducting seminars. I too have taught hundreds of EMS providers in self-defense. I have taught seminars at state level law enforcement conferences as well. My DT4EMS course has been accepted for CEU’s since 1997.

Teaching a pressure point to free someone from (to use South Narc’s term) the “FUT” (Funked up tangle) is only asking for problems. There was a guy from Illinois I met years ago who studied with people like Dillman and took the full power kicks to the groin and throat. Now while I agree very impressive wouldn’t it be better to spend time learning how to “prevent” the power blow from making contact? 

We have guys in my school that are SCARS certified, black belts in Judo, Karate and TKD. We also have guys that have traveled and trained in ground fighting. We take these things and blend the thing we find more practical than not. We don’t just “teach” things without “pressure testing”. 

This pressure testing has consisted of taking a “technique” and getting another person to get really pumped up and start attacking………. not pre-planned and see “what” comes out under stress. We have thrown out many “techniques” because they have failed in combat (or under stress conditions).

Since fine motor skills decrease or cease to exist under stress, I am always leery of anything that requires pinpoint accuracy for its use. 

I say these things because I have had to fight for my life……….for real. I have also researched extensively EMS and self-defense. This is my passion……not just a business. DT4EMS has cost me thousands of dollars and I give away way more than I have ever received.



Your system may be great. I applaud you for training EMS providers. Just realize, just like the UFC proved in the early 1990’s…………. not every centuries old “technique” works in the real world. That is a lesson I had to learn the hard way.

Again, good luck …… I am always interested in hearing what others have to say. I am the constant student. 

Here are some pics of "pressure testing"

http://emtlife.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=63&stc=1&d=1166633961

http://emtlife.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=64&stc=1&d=1166634055

http://emtlife.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=65&stc=1&d=1166634086

Sam, the guy with the blood and knot on his head became a friend after he attended a DT4EMS class. He spent several years in Karate prior to trainign with us. Now he is an active part of spreading the word to other health care providers.


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## jmaccauley (Dec 20, 2006)

I hadn't gotten completely through your opening comments before the name George Dillman flash through my brain. Now, don't get me wrong, I have no beef with any martial artist who shares useful information with both practitioners and non-practitioners alike. I sit up and take notice when I hear phrases such as: New, revolutionary, correct techniques and effectiveness. The EMS community is no different than any private citizen when it comes to the desire to be able to effectively protect themselves from violence. The restraining of a patient is a very specialized area and should rightly be treated as such. As DT4EMS stated, basic pressure point restraint techniques work on those who are suceptible to pain compliance. In other words, if they want the pain to stop, they stop the act. Those who are under the influence of drugs/alcohol, those who are emotionally unstable and those who are "just palin focused," will not be effected by simple pressure point control.Of course, Dillman and his protege's know many techniques that can disable and in some cases, incapacitate, the subjects, but that is not something easily learned. Also, in the fast moving, dynamic setting of a medical emergency, the use of such a questionable restraining method could be disasterous. 

You are absolutely correct in your assessment that EMS personnel need to be taught skills that will provide them with a certain degree of protection from violence. I encourage your continued research into control techniques that will find itself being useful in the field as opposed to the dojo.  

Lastly, the fact that you have a money back guarantee on your training seems a little silly. This might be better suited for your karate school. However, how much is your guarantee worth when your training is used on that one person that wasn't incapacitated or restrained the way you promised?


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## DT4EMS (Dec 20, 2006)

There always seems to be a lot of confusion when it comes to real defensive tactics training and martial arts or fighting. 

Defensive Tactics training has to cover many subjects including stress and how it affects the body, survival mindset, use of force levels, legal aspects, techniques and documentation. (Usually in a short amount of time)
Due to the time table being short, the “techniques” taught must be limited to techniques that are easy to learn, easy to use and natural to remember. 

Martial arts, regardless of the style, generally involve training to win the scenario/situation. A lot of times training to fight their own style. Sometimes this “win” may be perceived differently in a court of law.

Fighting can best be described as two willing combatants meeting in the middle of the street. No one wins in a fight. A person may have little or no formal training and feel they are always ready to fight. Keep in mind a person who fights all the time may have more training and experience without ever being formally taught anything.

The words defensive tactics when taught to law enforcement is really a play on words. It should be called Aggressive Tactics. Real DT training for EMS has to deal with recognition, avoidance and escape that is where the word defensive comes in. LEO DT teaches things like mechanics of arrest and control. Control as nothing to do with defense, control is actually an aggressive action.

Some of the confusion surfaces when a martial arts instructor tries to teach DT without taking the “win” or the “fight” out of the equation. If a person uses a skill learned in a DT class to escape that IS a win. Beating a person to a pulp may be a physical win only to lose in a court battle.

DT4EMS does not claim to train people to win MMA events or “take on all comers” The idea is to give EMS providers options rather than just falling victim to an assault and stating it’s just part of the job. Read the Six steps to scene safety here: 
http://www.dt4ems.net/forums/index.php?topic=12.0 
DT4EMS encourages participants to seek out quality training both as physical fitness and stress reduction regardless of the style.

In DT4EMS the participants are taught to get their hands up and open and to try and create space. This action cannot be confused with a willing combatant. 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with training in any style just as long as you are aware of “why” you train. So defensive tactics training isn’t about training to learn a million submissions or gain knock out power with strikes. Instead it is a plan to find the way out. If a person trains in DT and wants to pursue a martial arts or combatives program then they will have a working knowledge of laws and force levels and documentation skills.
If you are a person who is EMS and already trains in martial arts, boxing, wrestling etc. you already have a great base of skills to help protect yourself in a violent encounter. The trick is to train.


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## jmaccauley (Dec 20, 2006)

In all fairness Jim, and I know that this seems like you're being jumped on here, but hear me out. You are a martial artist. Several of us on this forum are also. When teaching, or more correctly, facilitating our peers, we must be careful to put things in their proper context. For example, I know of many ways to strike, throw, block, take down and partially or completely incapacitate another human being. That being said, will I be able to teach you when to use what degree of force to restrain or disable another person? Hopefully I can give you some tools for your toolbox and create many learning scenarios so that you may be better equipped to recall an appropriate level of response. I don't know if you are a paramedic or deal with the public in a custodial setting, but there arre many, many limitations and restrictions on what we can do. Do we want our peers and students to survive a violent encounter? Absolutely. There are firearms and verbal judo at our disposal. Please put your training methods and techniques into the proper context and you will get a much better response. I regularly train SWAT and high risk security personnel in countermeasures, but I don't teach those techniques to youth groups. I do teach the same mindset however. Survival mentality is universal: pressure point control is not.


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## emskyusho (Dec 20, 2006)

*EMS Kyusho DVD*

As always, I’m glad to meet a fellow martial artist. I invite you to come to any of the seminars or camps me or my instructor is having this year that I will be at too. I have not yet set up any seminars of my own this up coming year yet but plan on doing that soon. As I tell anyone, you are more than welcome to come to my school also to share and train. I like to meet and train with new people, constantly sharing and learning as much as I can. So what tactics do you teach for DT4EMS to help control a person that needs medical attention but is being combative in the ambulance? I too am the constant student, as I have studied more than 10 different martial arts. I read your 6 steps for DT4EMS and they are very sound rules to follow and to train. I also teach people to avoid dangerous situations and pretty much exactly what you teach for entering any situation. I DO NOT teach EMS to fight.

Now one thing about EMS Kyusho is not all of what I teach is just pain compliance, it has a lot to do with muscle and neurological control. I fully understand that not everything is 100% and I’m not saying that this is fully guaranteed because nothing is but it gives you something else to put in your tool box that works very well. I have had students deal with violent drunk/intoxicated patience with great success using what I have taught them. As for telling people why what does what medically… I too do the same and explain why certain things do what. Kyusho International (The group I am the head instructor for Illinois) has done extensive research on the medical side of PP with cadavers and other medical studies and medical tests as well. As for George Dillman I am no longer in that group but I was for years. KI focuses on real proven tactics that have been taken to the mat or worked on the street with LEO or EMS with out the mumbo jumbo.

“The studies (accepted b the NAEMSP's position paper) state it takes a MINIMUM of 5 people to properly "medically" restrain a person. That needs to be kept in mind while training EMS.”

This is great but how often do you have 5 people available in the back of an ambulance to restrain someone? Most people that I have worked with say you may have 2 or 3 at most if you are lucky.

“Martial arts, regardless of the style, generally involve training to win the scenario/situation. A lot of times training to fight their own style. Sometimes this “win” may be perceived differently in a court of law.”

I’m not teaching people to “Win” or fight or even hit anyone (not once do I show to hit anything)… just help do what they have to do anyway and maybe help what they have to do safer and easier and survive. Also YES this is the last step taken to control a patient in situations that are life threatening to you. And I am aware of consequences and court defensible solutions this is why I teach this.

I have a money back guarantee on all my seminars for the reason that if you truly believe after the seminar that you can not use SOMETHING you have learned I will refund your money. This goes for EMS or martial artists alike. So if people feel they don’t learn anything at all that they could use to make what they already do easier and safer they get their money back. No I don’t refund money if something fails them in the field. Or as a martial artists if you get you’re a$$ kicked on the street after one of my seminars I will not refund your money. The refund is for the day of the seminar at the seminar only. Anything can fail but you train in as many different things as you can to help what you do.

Scenario- If you are leaning over a patient already in the ambulance on the cot and suddenly they grab your stethoscope and try to pull you down to them to bite your face or choke you with the stethoscope… What do you do? Do you grab there arms and try to get them to let go of the equipment or do you do something else?

Most of the scenarios on this DVD and what I teach has to deal with people already on the cot and in the truck. This can also be used for continuing Ed hours for your certification.

Here is the link to the seminars for this year:

http://www.kyusho.com/jimcorn2007.htm


Anyway if you want this training DVD I have it is available at the link in the first post. Also if you want to contact me personally or book a seminar my information is on my website listed above and my email is jimgreenwoodkarateusa@hotmail.com.



Thank you and happy holidays


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## emskyusho (Dec 20, 2006)

*No I'm not*

No I am not an EMT but I have continuously had students that were EMT’s or nurses or doctors over the past 14 years. These are the people that have come to me wanting solutions for combative patience in an ambulance and in the ER when you can’t leave the situation and you have to control them. I fully understand the limitations of what EMS personnel can and can not do.


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## DT4EMS (Dec 20, 2006)

emskyusho said:


> No I am not an EMT but I have continuously had students that were EMT’s or nurses or doctors over the past 14 years. These are the people that have come to me wanting solutions for combative patience in an ambulance and in the ER when you can’t leave the situation and you have to control them. I fully understand the limitations of what EMS personnel can and can not do.




That is great.  

I created DT4EMS from a medic's perspective, not a police officer or martial artist. I have 16 years in EMS and 11 in Law Enforcement. 

What I want you to do is reassure us to make sure your program is not like so many others that try to take and use EMS and promote another "widget". A widget is where people take a product from Wal-Mart, paint it blue and sell it for 10 times the amount because they say it is for EMS.
You know the way others took nunchuka, Tonfa etc and painted black and sold to LEO.

Now to answer your question about tactics. The meat of it is in the "Six steps to scene safety".

The most important this is to seperate "patient" from "attacker".

I will say it is very easy to restrain a combative patient........ in other words..... one who's purpose is not to harm you because they are confused.

An intoxicated 300lb biker who says he is coming off the stretcher to kill you is a whole 'nother animal. Been there....done that.

Now keep doing what you are doing............ by all means. You are helping to stimulate discussion about the topic of EMS safety. I can agree to disagree. Again I have worked the field.......... done the pressure point thing..... karate thing and so on. I don't knock anyone's style/sytem.

Heck hard-style is where I got my start. 

And it isn't what I can do at the end of 16 hours of training........... it's what the participant can do......... 

Like I said before. Welcome to the forums and I truly wish you good luck. Just remember to teach the provider the levels of force, documentation and courtroom demeanor.


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## emskyusho (Dec 20, 2006)

*my training*

Don't have a lot of time to write but wanted to clear up I don't just do hard style MA. I have trained in Jujutsu, Aikido and BJJ too. Thanks for your comments and concerns and I hope you all understand I am not trying to cookie cut something to just make money off of it by saying it is for EMS. I truly want to help EMS personnel as I have many that are very good friends of mine that study from me and also that are just friends that do not study MA of any kind from me. Also to re-stress this is so not a "martial art" and you do not have to know a ma of any kind to apply this stuff.

Also I have developed this from what the EMS and doctors told me they can and can not do and what will work for them. By constant feedback and working on this over the years this has not been an over night thing I have created. I fully agree that it is totally different if a 300lb biker is coming up off the cot at you. But like you've said too nothing is 100% no matter what it is they are all just more tools to use to help you do your job.

Thanks

Jim


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## emskyusho (Dec 21, 2006)

This DVD has now been on the market for two weeks. I just thought I would pass along the first feedback I've gotten on it. This is from an EMT:  

"Your DVD is good. When I finish making my notes, I'm going to see if I can interest security in it and maybe get it included in the physical training we get. Right now, we just use CPI and that isn't worth much in a real confrontation. The verbal deescalation skills are great but the physical interventions are not."


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## jmaccauley (Dec 21, 2006)

How long is a typical training seminar? Can you effectively teach a student, with little or no combative arts experience, the correct angle and direction of a pressure point in a relatively short period of time? What would be the liability of a practitioner who inadvertantly causes a stroke in a patient who has a head trauma? Or could that even happen? How effective would those techniques be on a patient exhibiting signs of excited delirium or substance psychosis? I understand that in a violent, life and death attack, anything goes, but what of that unruly patient who needs to be restrained?

I'm asking these questions as an administrator who wants to know what my employees will be trained in and what my liability is.


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## jmaccauley (Dec 21, 2006)

By the way, have you really been studying martial arts since you were 3?


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## emskyusho (Dec 21, 2006)

*When I started training*

From when I was about 4 or 5 my dad taught me at home and got me up to a green belt level in TKD before I could take class because they didn't take kids until they were 8 years old. Of course I wasn't officially tested but I could do all the stuff… So I had to go thru each belt after I started “formally” taking classes but I still count my dad as my first instructor. Also Dad was teaching me JKD as he had learned some from someone he knew long ago. I got my first black belt when I was 12 years old (March 1985). So no not 3 but before I even started kindergarten as a kid I was out in our garage/training room kicking the bags and learning forms.

My father has been doing Martial Arts for around 35 years. He was close to black belt level when I started taking regular class but he waited for me to be ready to test and we tested the same day for black belt. If you have any more questions about my MA background please visit www.kyushokarateusa.com and go to the "About Us" page. I still have every certificate I ever got starting with my first yellow belt certificate January 1980.

Oh and my birthday is tomorrow… I will be 34. 

Thanks

Jim


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## jmaccauley (Dec 21, 2006)

Quite an accomplishment You should be proud and I'm sure your children will be learning from Dad as well. I have also been heavily involved in MA for over 30 years, however I started when I was 20. I always remember thinking that I was a better fighter before I learned how to fight. But after several life altering revelations, I realized that there is much more to MA than fighting. I'll always be greatful for those experiences, even though some were painful.


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## emskyusho (Dec 21, 2006)

*basic training session*

“How long is a typical training seminar?”

The basic training session is two 4 hour sessions and I can do this in one day or spread it over 2 days doing 4 hours one day and the other 4 the next. I cover everything on the DVD as well as answer and cover any material and questions that come up during the training session. Or we can break it up into a bi-weekly class such as do a Saturday class and then do another Saturday class in two weeks. It helps to slit it up sometimes as going thru it all in one day can some times be over whelming so the second day is kinda like a refresher course and making sure they can do it. Although after saying that most get it and can do it effectively after the first session but practice is needed to maintain proficiency as with anything.


“Can you effectively teach a student, with little or no combative arts experience, the correct angle and direction of a pressure point in a relatively short period of time?”

Yes I have had many EMS and hospital personnel that have had NO martial arts experience at all and they learned it fine. One lady that was there was a 5’ 6” 120lb 45 year old woman and she did very well and I heard stories back from others as well as her how much she was amazed how well this worked after just a 6 hour class. I know I said two 4 hour classes above; I just want to plan to make sure everyone does get it. Also anyone can email me and ask me any questions at any time.

“What would be the liability of a practitioner who inadvertently causes a stroke in a patient who has a head trauma? Or could that even happen?”

What is your regular liability for your state if someone causes more injury to the person while doing their job? EMS get training and use what ever they need to do there job and as long as it isn’t excessive force and they aren’t negligent this should not cause any more legal liability than something like that happening with other training they have had.

Now… could it happen? I have never heard of anyone having a stroke related to the use of PP on them. I mean anything is possible but not likely more than any other physical restraining techniques.

“How effective would those techniques be on a patient exhibiting signs of excited delirium or substance psychosis?”

I have heard many success stories using PP on people like this and some that said they had trouble. Now with that said if you can “read” what they are on like say if they are drunk, points on the head neck and face get a good response. But how ever doing some things to the arms or legs might be ineffective on this same person.

I hope this answers most of your questions.

Thanks

Jim


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## jmaccauley (Dec 21, 2006)

Stay with me for a minute here Jim. Now, when I use a PP restraint or control technique and there is an inadvertant reaction from the patient, I'm O.K. because I was trained by you? You are willingly a part of my defense? I only ask because if you put someone unconscious, there is a restriction of blood flow to the brain. Neurological damage is also common when pressure points control is administered to an actively resisting subject.


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## emskyusho (Dec 21, 2006)

*Restraints, not Knockouts!*

Make sure you understand I am not teaching how to render people unconscious, I am teaching to just restrain the patient. I know most people when they hear of PP work they think of knocking people out, but this is not always the case and not what I am teaching. Neurological damage can only happen if you intentionally knock the person out and do not revive them and even then is still very unlikely. The way that I teach this, you would have a hard time rendering someone unconscious, as you would have to know a lot more to do this. I do however cover what things you should and shouldn’t do with someone that is having a cardiovascular problem. I can not “guarantee” anything as these are just training techniques to help and anything can possibly go wrong as with anything else. As an example you could be trying to apply these techniques and accidentally stick your thumb in their eye and cause damage… it would have nothing to do with the techniques.


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## jmaccauley (Dec 22, 2006)

Here's the problem Jim. Again, I'm speaking as an administrator who may have to decide whether or not my personnel need the training you offer. They will learn restraining techniques that may or may not cause or exacerbate current injuries or medical problems. Now, of course, this is much different than a medic who is being attacked in the rear of an ambulance. That person obviously needs a way to escape the immediate danger. In a clinical or hospital setting, there may be enough staff available to use the 5 man "star" tactic" of limb and head restraint or chemical restraint,  but unlikely in the field. However, understand that there are trained responses and then there are those techniques that are considered "untrained-but-justified." Your training seems well suited as a self defense program, but may cause a liability if endorsed by an employer. Any thoughts?


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## Spindoctor1 (Dec 24, 2006)

*EMS Kyusho*

Just thought I would put my simple two cents worth in, regarding the EMS video. I have read the posts and it seems to me that a lot of discussions have occurred regarding liability, effectiveness, and other issues. My question to those of you offering your opinions so strongly; Have you even seen what the video has to offer? That may answer your questions and concerns.
   I prefer quick simple techniques that avoid wrestling for twenty minutes with a patient whatever the reson for doing so (too old and tired from callbacks for that nonsense). If a different take on the subject is available, give it a shot or at least see for yourself before passing judgment.
As with all training, protocols, guidelines or anything else; all things, whether medicine adminstration, extrication, or retraint techniques should be used with common sense, self-control, and utmost concern for the safety of your crew and the patient.
  My thoughts are if you stick with those ideas you will be better off.

Regards to all.
Spindoctor1


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## DT4EMS (Dec 24, 2006)

Spindoctor1 said:


> Just thought I would put my simple two cents worth in, regarding the EMS video. I have read the posts and it seems to me that a lot of discussions have occurred regarding liability, effectiveness, and other issues. My question to those of you offering your opinions so strongly; Have you even seen what the video has to offer? That may answer your questions and concerns.
> I prefer quick simple techniques that avoid wrestling for twenty minutes with a patient whatever the reson for doing so (too old and tired from callbacks for that nonsense). If a different take on the subject is available, give it a shot or at least see for yourself before passing judgment.
> As with all training, protocols, guidelines or anything else; all things, whether medicine adminstration, extrication, or retraint techniques should be used with common sense, self-control, and utmost concern for the safety of your crew and the patient.
> My thoughts are if you stick with those ideas you will be better off.
> ...




Well let me put it like this. I tried to be civil about the whole thing. 

There is a post that says you should have a minimum of 10 posts prior to any advertising.

Secondly......... I am a paramedic with 16 years in the field. I have 11 years of law enforcment experience and have taught hundreds of karate students, police officers and EMS personnel.

I can tell you from personal experience that a lot of the "feel good" pressure point type stuff has failed me and many others in the field.


Most EMS providers don't have the luxury of working out on a regular basis for whatever reason. Therefore I feel very,very strongly about any training they receive.

DT4EMS goes WWWWAAAAAAAYYYYY beyond just the physical aspects of the potential violent encounter. 

We spend time on documentation, courtroom demeanor as well as survival mindset, understanding stress and it's effects on the body........

Plus I give tons of it away for free. 

My course has been evaluated by doctors, one of which became the medical director for the program, police officers, nurses, administrators and educators alike.

I don't know what is on the DVD........... why don't you post it for us to see?

and if you would like to see what people have said about my course look here:


"I really enjoy all of the hands on experience. Kip not only tells you what and how to do something, but he lets you practice until you have it down. Kip has a very strong passion for self-defense and for sharing his experience and knowledge with others. This makes you want to learn".  

Jeff Ward, Paramedic  



"....the information provided makes me feel more prepared to handle myself with a questionable patient or situation".

L. Barrett NREMT-P, Ozark County Ambulance District





" I have been to 3 different EMS defense classes and this one by far surpasses the others."

Garett Raney





"It was interesting to me to see these techniques really work, especially with petite individuals like me..... By using the steps taught, I was able to bring down individuals much larger than I".

Penny Fuller, NREMT-P, Willow Springs Ambulance District   





"I am the Ambulance Administrator For Ozarks Medical Center and I think that any Service or ER dept. that is not using or going to use DT4EMS are headed in the wrong direction in healthcare. I went to the class for 2 days and learned more than I had in 12 years on the truck. I took a beating like everyone else and it was worth every second of it . I can't wait to do it again."  
Farrell R.Graves, EMT-P / Ambulance Administration, OMC 





"I just took the DT4EMS class 07/20/05 in West Plains, MO and WOW it was awesome!!! KIP and BRUCE you guys are GREAT at what you do and how you teach!! I have been in EMS for 17yrs now, 10 as a medic and I learned more in 2 days about self defense than I thought possible. I feel so much more confident now about my and my partners personal safety. THANK YOU !!!! KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK GUYS!!" 
Student, Class of 07/20/05 - 07/21/05 





"I just attended the class with Kip and Bruce as instructiors and I am still stoked!!! This is Paramedic/LEO talking to EMS/ER in a no nonsense hands on practical approach. I studied karate for 2 years and was completely blown away by the simplicity and practicality of this program. We were taught mental, physical and legal aspects of everything. This class made me view things from a different angle that may very well save my butt one day. The FIST suit was a humbling experience. No fluff of fancy crap here. No macho crap either. Most seminars I retain 1 maybe 2 points. Here I found myself watching the DVD when I got home to plant the principles deep. I am looking forward to any refreshers offered."

Sam Voshell, Student - Class of 07/20/05 - 07/21/05





"This is hands down the best course available for EMS. Covered very simple, but very effective methods of distraction. By the end of the 2d day, a layperson will have these methods down. Be aware -- this is not a self-defense course taught by some ninja, but by a paramedic/police officer/martial arts instructor who has been there (in the EMS setting) and understands the ins and outs of the job and what we all experience out there (and also what we MAY experience). You take this course, and you will learn ways to give yourself and your partner at least a few seconds of distraction in order to make an escape from a dangerous or potentially dangerous scene. Do yourself a favor...check this class out and talk to your supervisor about getting it in your area. Rural EMS has long needed a course like this. Props to the instructors for taking the time to put this together. A very enjoyable experience...with CEU's to boot!"

Steven Duffel, Student - Class of 07/20/05 - 07/21/05



“Kip’s knowledge and demonstration of all skills is amazing. And the fact that each instructor, especially him will stop everything and go one on one with you so you can grasp the material and skill better. EVERYONE should go to the (DT4EMS) class.”

Nate Bean, EMT, EMT-P Student SCCC - Class of 02/15/06 - 02/16/06



“This was a very awesome class, I wish I had it a few weeks ago to help deal with a patient……..”

Wendy, EMT-P Student SCCC - Class of 02/15/06 - 02/16/06


That is just a few..............


Here are some of the places I have taught courses for:
South Central Career Center - Paramedic Program



IHM Health Studies Center (St. Louis, MO)



Mineral Area College Law Enforcement Academy (Park Hills, MO)

Jefferson College Law Enforcement Training Academy (Hillsboro, MO)

Sullivan Police Department (Sullivan, MO)

Jasper County Sheriff’s Department (Jasper County, MO)

Dan Chadd’s Tae Kwon Do (Sullivan, MO)

Ripley County Sheriff’s Department (Ripley County, MO)

Taney County Sheriff’s Department (Forsyth, MO)

Bourbon Police Department (Bourbon, MO)

Ozark County Sheriff’s Department (Gainesville, MO)

New World Martial Arts Academy (Collinsville, IL)

Cliff’s Karate (West Plains, MO)

Ozark County Ambulance (Gainesville, MO)

Oregon County Ambulance (Thayer, MO)

Ozarks Medical Center (West Plains, MO)

Willow Springs Ambulance District (Willow Springs, MO)

Missouri Sheriff’s Training Academy (Jefferson City, MO)



Sullivan Elementary School (Sullivan, MO)

Bourbon High School (Bourbon, MO)

Bourbon Elementary School (Bourbon, MO)

St. Francois County Sheriff's Dept (Farmington, MO)



Alton R-IV School (Alton, MO)


and did you see the FREE articles and video's I have posted here?

There is so much more to Defensive Tactics than the actual technique.


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## emskyusho (Dec 24, 2006)

*One more thing...*

First of all, thank you spindoctor1 for seeing through the clutter! That was a lot of what I've been trying to say. 

On that note, DT4EMS; I have never doubted your system. From what I have seen (clips on myspace...I will have my own clips posted on my profile soon), it looks really good. So isn't it possible that mine might be good too? (Sorry about the "10-post rule"; I was not aware.)  I'm not saying that my techniques should replace everything that's out there. I'm just saying it's something else that you can add to your toolbox. There is more than one way to skin a cat, as the cliche goes. I'm just giving people the option to learn something new. Learning is a type of brainstorming; you take a whole bunch of ideas and then pick the best one(s) for the scenario.

On that note, I am still available to answer questions about kyusho, but other than that I'm stepping out now. If anyone is interested, they know where they can get the video. Thank you everyone, and have a wonderful holiday season.


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## DT4EMS (Dec 24, 2006)

Your system again, may be very good. If you notice my early posts it isnt so much about DT4EMS as it is "what" is taught.

Here is an interesting article :

 Have Martial Artists Corrupted Defensive Tactics and Close Quarter Combat Training?
By John D. Williams
Posted on NaturalStrength.com on July 8, 2006
Background 

Martial artists have through various methods engineered a reputation as self-defense or unarmed combat experts. They use this reputation to attract students who seek to gain the ability to defend themselves in violent confrontations. In reality many martial artists are not self-defense or unarmed combat experts and many common martial arts combative methodologies are questionable at best and often very dangerous.

When students seek training from martial artists they are usually what we call consciously incompetent, that is they cannot handle themselves in a violent confrontation and they realize this fact. Often after training with martial arts instructors students develop what we call unconscious incompetence, that is they still cannot handle themselves in a violent confrontation, but think that they can.

The following example demonstrates what is the tragic result is often. A person in Australia by the name of Max, trained for several years in a very popular martial art and was awarded a black belt. He was also in the Australian military and had recently completed a one month intensive full-time unarmed combat course. That course was taught by the instructors who at that time trained the Australian S.A.S. One night Max discovered a person with a knife, vandalizing someone else's car. Without his training Max would have avoided the person and remained unharmed. Instead, Max thought, "Beauty, this is my chance to lay this guy out and be a hero".

The vandal came at Max with the knife pointing downwards. A popular martial arts theory states that attackers who hold the knife downwards are not dangerous, because they do not know what they are doing (See quote by Bill Wallace, Section 3 (r)) and Max had successfully defended against knife attacks thousands of times in training. Max found out the hard way how ineffective and misleading his training had been. He is lucky to have lived through the education process.

How Martial Artists Have Engineered a Reputation as Self-Defense or Unarmed Combat Experts

Martial artists often appear in television programs and movies. In choreographed fight scenes, martial arts skills appear to be very effective.

Martial artists perform spectacular attacking and defensive techniques against cooperative opponents. 
The culture surrounding martial arts training is engineered to create "guru" status for the instructors. Such cultural aspects include the wearing of special belts and uniforms, requiring students to bow to instructors, having students address instructors using titles such as "Master" and "Sensei", having the instructors at the front of the dojo (training site) while the lower ranked participants are at the rear, having the instructors perform seemingly incredible feats against cooperative partners, forms of showmanship such as breaking boards and having the instructors pass judgment in the form of passing or failing grades.

Martial artists seek positions as instructors or engineer other forms of association with law enforcement or military agencies. Alternatively martial artists have their arts methodology adopted as a training standard within such agencies. These marketing strategies help them to sell training and commercial merchandise to the martial artists' primary source of revenue - the general public.

Martial artists engineer status in sporting competitions which students interpret to be relevant to situations outside the sporting and training environments.

Martial artists claim that their methodology has been handed down over many generations or has some other traditional or cultural significance.

Martial artists use business names, advertising or other promotional material that implies expertise. 
Martial artists fail to provide specific information or disclaimers that convey that their martial art is designed for sport, fitness, cultural study, entertainment, discipline or whatever, rather than being suitable preparation for violent encounters outside the training environment.

Martial artists certify the ability of students or cause students to believe that because of training they (the students) are proficient. These endorsements include the awarding of belts, certificates and the like, passing an examination, or implying proficiency by allowing students to participate in dangerous activities or occupations.

The Tactical Inadequacies of Martial Arts Training

Basing the preparation for real life violence on sporting methodology: It is dangerous to believe that methodology designed for sporting contests is effective preparation for real violence. In all sporting events there are rules and fixed boundaries of acceptable conduct. Combatants usually know they will be fighting only one opponent and there will be no other obstacles or threats.

In sports such as Judo and kickboxing, combatants know that they will only be fighting one opponent. As a result people training for such events learn to focus their vision only on that opponent. The result is a form of learned habitual tunnel vision. This is completely counter to one's needs in real violence, where one needs enhanced peripheral vision to detect other attackers, obstacles and escape routes.

Participation in sparring and fighting competitions usually develops timing and reflexes that are detrimental in real violence. As an example, most sparring is either light contact or non-contact. For maximum effect, strikes should be performed so the weapon (e.g., fist or foot) aims to pass through its target. In sparring, the weapon is thrown to avoid or just touch the target. As a result, sparring strikes can be initiated from approximately eight inches (20 cm) further away than effective strikes. In real violence one performs as one practices.

Even in so called full contact training and competition, one is usually competing against one's friends or people one respects, so opponents rarely give maximum intent to seriously crippling one another.

A sporting orientation develops a tendency to use each side of the body in a different manner. For example, a right-handed boxer will stand facing an opponent with his left foot slightly forward. He will learn to throw jab and hook punches with the left arm and cross punches with the right. Too many martial artists practice similarly, consistently executing attacks and defenses from a favored stance.


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## DT4EMS (Dec 24, 2006)

This method of preparation is very dangerous for real violence, where conditions such as the angle of attack are not controlled. As an example, consider the situation that would occur if the right-handed boxer above was attacked from his right. Most likely one of the following scenarios would result:

the boxer would be forced to throw an unpracticed (hence ineffective) right jab or left cross,
the boxer would attempt to turn right into his favored stance, causing a delay in his defensive reaction, or
being subject to an angle of attack not practiced against, the boxer's brain may momentarily "freeze".
In each scenario, the boxer would be at a severe disadvantage, from which he may never recover.

Ignoring the response sequence

There are three steps that must occur when responding to an attack:

First, the opponent's attack must be sensed (e.g., it must be seen, felt, heard, etc),
Second, the specifics of the attack must be cognitively processed (i.e., the attack must be recognized and its parameters determined), and
Third, the defender must respond.




When responding to most attacks the defender is always two steps behind. Anyone who is not a gifted athlete or highly trained professional will not be able to employ a defensive skill quickly enough to counter an opponent's attack once it is underway.

Many self-defense techniques taught by martial artists ignore this fact. A typical martial arts self-defense technique will involve the blocking of an attack followed by the employment of an often spectacular counterattack. It is assumed that the block will be successful. Blocks usually are successful in a training environment because 1) the defender knows what sort of attack is coming and when it will occur; 2) the attacker is usually cooperative; and 3) the attack is rarely performed in a decisive manner.

The same technique applied in real violence usually fails. As an example, knife and club attacks are usually defended successfully in martial arts training sessions, but it has been proven with the use of felt tip markers and soft clubs that even highly trained athletes, such as SWAT Team or Special Forces members, can rarely prevent being stabbed, cut or struck by a committed attacker.

The use of highly skilled techniques

When one of the FBI's top unarmed combat instructors was faced with a thief holding a pistol, the FBI agent used a very basic clubbing action to strike the hand holding the gun. This example demonstrates that in a life or death situation even a highly trained professional reverts to simple technique. The reason for this is because simple techniques are the most reliable. Higher skilled techniques are more difficult to perform and have a smaller margin for error. This is especially important when fear or other factors restrict or inhibit physical and mental performance.

Despite this fact, too many martial arts instructors tend to emphasize higher skilled and more complicated techniques. Possible reasons for this are: 1) showmanship, 2) to engineer guru status, 3) to justify further training and grading fees and 4) an arrogant refusal to acknowledge the realities of fear.

If a top professional uses basic technique in real violent situations, it is extremely dangerous to teach lesser practitioners high skilled techniques.







The emphasis or reliance upon grappling techniques

Grappling techniques have become popular because of the success of competitors using grappling techniques in so called "no holds barred" sporting competitions. While grappling techniques are unquestionably useful in one-on-one competition, and there is considerable merit in the Jujitsu teaching that -most real fights- end up with combatants on the ground, the use of grappling techniques when one is outnumbered is suicidal.

In training for real violence the possibility of being outnumbered cannot be ignored. This is demonstrated by the fact that of the 267 South African Police officials murdered between January and September 1997, over 30% were outnumbered at a ratio of at least 3:1.


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## DT4EMS (Dec 24, 2006)

Very simply, when applying a grappling hold, one's body becomes immobile and defenseless. A third person can easily cave in the grappler's head with a pool cue, garbage can lid, a rock, or other weapon.

Failure to develop the attributes necessary to survive a violent confrontation

Even if techniques are performed thousands of times with robot-like confidence and technical accuracy in the training environment, it is not sufficient preparation for dealing with the dynamics of real violence. To employ techniques outside of training requires attributes such as timing, reflexes, coordination, spontaneity, speed and power plus the intangible qualities such as purpose, confidence, spirit and desire to win.

If training does not go beyond the teaching of technique to have a deliberate goal of improving those attributes and qualities, the training will be more detrimental than productive.

Patterning subconscious minds with incorrect response sequences

In real violence one's opponent dictates one's actions. For example, an opponent's strike dictates the appropriate counter. The opponent's body position in relation to one's own body position dictates the most appropriate strike or technique to employ.

Martial arts training often ignores this fact. Students are typically taught complicated series of moves such as arm lock flows, katas and patterns. These series of moves are supposed to be practiced against an opponent or opponents acting in a very specific manner. Unfortunately real attackers rarely attack in the same specific manner.

Rather than learning that "technique A" is the appropriate response to an opponent's "attack A", students subconscious minds are programmed that "technique A" is followed by "technique B, which is followed by "technique C" etc. This patterning is very dangerous in real violence.

Irresponsible and misleading allocation of training time

If martial arts training is to be effective training for real violence, the allocation of training time should reflect field needs. Most real violence involves the use of punches, elbows, knees, low kicks and grappling. Real violence is usually initiated with opponents standing almost chest to chest, or alternatively with an opponent rushing his victim from the front, side, or rear.

Real violence very rarely involves combatants standing apart in so called "fighting stances". Spending considerable time defending against elaborate kicks, or against attackers standing apart in "fighting stances" is irresponsible as it takes time away from relevant training. These practices also give students a dangerously misleading idea of what real violence involves.

Similar irresponsible and dangerous time allocation occurs when practicing offensive skills. At a martial arts training session attended by a Director of Global Security Training, a large portion of time was devoted to practicing running jump front kicks against a target nine feet off the ground. The need to head-kick a nine foot tall attacker is very rare.

Failure to prepare for the detrimental effects of fear

Fear restricts body movement and inhibits mental and physical coordination. Even the act of placing a key in a keyhole can be difficult if one is scared. This needs to be considered when selecting techniques that are taught. In addition, students need to be provided with methods of fear control and an honest appreciation of the realities of violence. Failure to do so will almost certainly result in students not being able to perform well in real violence.

Failure to select field-proven techniques

The best reason to select a technique is because it has been proven to be useful in real violence. We strongly believe that very few martial arts techniques, when scrutinized, would be supported by significant field testing.

The practice of instructing when one has little or no practical understanding of the situations students are likely to face.






Too many martial artists have little understanding of their art's field application. While it would be wrong to encourage martial artists to be involved in real fights, one must seriously question the merit of having students prepared for possible life or death situations learning from instructors with no practical understanding of their (the student's) requirements.

Failure to ensure that training is ongoing

Neuromuscular skills such as self-defense ability rapidly diminish without regular practice. This reduction is difficult to quantify, however it could be reasonably argued that self-defense ability would be significantly reduced after three months of not training and markedly reduced after six months. As such, it would be dangerous to imply competency when training is not ongoing. As a result the following are questionable and possibly dangerous practices: 1)the awarding of certificates or belts, or passing examinations, without the requirement of regular, frequent and continuous practice and 2) allowing people to work in occupations exposing them to potential violence without regular, frequent and ongoing training.

Confusing loyalty and friendship with field effectiveness

The nature of martial arts and combative training attracts personalities with a natural respect for characteristics such as honor, valor and loyalty. Instructors who demonstrate such admirable characteristics often attract large followings of faithful disciples and loyal friends. When the field effectiveness of methods taught by an instructor such as this is questioned, the disciples and loyal friends will readily ignore objectivity, instead responding emotionally and subjectively.

Attempting to achieve "correct" body mechanics by making repeated fine adjustments

If a student properly understands the principles and objectives of a technique, and uses this understanding to guide repeated training, over time he or she will develop good body mechanics. Rather than focus on this understanding and its application, too many instructors attempt to mold "correct" body mechanics for a technique by making repeated adjustments, as a golf professional would do to correct a golf swing. Examples of such adjustments include telling a student to rotate a wrist more, raise a knee more, and to point toes more.

From an instructor's perspective this practice helps engineer guru status for him or herself and fosters dependency in students. From a student's perspective this practice is extremely detrimental.




Students' bodies vary. To fully understand how these variations effect the execution of techniques would require the instructor to have:

a depth of field experience in the use of the techniques in actual violent situations and 
a depth of knowledge in the science known as Biomechanics. Too many instructors instead base the principles of correction on advice handed down through a chain of other instructors or martial arts gurus. Ironically, most probably none of these instructors or martial arts gurus would have both field experience and qualifications in Biomechanics either.

The so-called "correct" body mechanics as determined by such instructors would most likely be inferior to the body mechanics that would have developed using the methods described at the opening of this section.

The practice of molding "correct" body mechanics for a technique by making repeated adjustments tends to result in a student performing techniques in a robot-like manner. This may be acceptable for a golfer, but such practice tends to reduce the qualities of fluidity, spontaneity and adaptability. The possession of these qualities is vitally important for one to survive real violence.

Students who have become reliant upon having an instructor providing critique of fine body mechanics will find it difficult to train independently. This may not concern members of the general public who attend training dojos on a regular basis, but is a concern for members of government law enforcement and security agencies. These members, who need to train regularly to maintain competency in handling real violence, paradoxically often have less exposure to instructors than many members of the general public do.

Sadly, but too frequently, law enforcement or security officers are trained by instructors who focus on molding "correct" body mechanics for a technique by making repeated adjustments. The result is officers who 1) do not understand the principles and objectives of the techniques they have learned, 2) perform in a robot-like manner and lose qualities that would help survive real violence and 3) only train when they are given instruction, which in many cases is only a few times per year (or worse - only during basic training).


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## DT4EMS (Dec 24, 2006)

Reliance or heavy emphasis on pressure point or joint manipulation

The understanding of where the most vulnerable areas of an opponent's body are is very useful. Such an understanding should include the knowledge that:

areas such as the groin and the solar plexus are excellent targets for strikes,
knees may be damaged by forceful strikes to their side, and joints such as elbows and fingers may be damaged when bent backwards, and
certain areas such as the side of the neck, areas of the ribs and the front of the shoulders are extremely painful when pressed upon.
The understanding of vulnerable areas can be taken to the extreme of learning as many so called pressure points as an acupuncturist does. Some martial artists base their fighting methodology on the so called ability to manipulate these points. There are three main concerns with this practice.
Firstly, in situations of real violence it is extremely unlikely that a technique will be able to be employed with sufficient accuracy to achieve the desired result.
Secondly, in order to practice such techniques both the attacker and the defender usually train in a profoundly unrealistic robot-like manner.
Thirdly, such practice tends to encourage a proliferation of very questionable techniques. Examples found in this author's collection of martial arts training videos include an instructor demonstrating a light tap above the temple, with which he was alleged to have been knocked out by his eight year old son, and another instructor who advises to rub a certain "rub pressure point" on a grasping attacker's wrist.
The learning of multiple responses to a visual or physical cue

There is a valid argument for the value of learning alternative responses to a given situation in order to increase one's versatility. However, the value of increasing one's versatility must be weighed against the sometimes dramatic increase in one's reaction time that occurs in real situations of real violence, when an individual has learned more than one response to the visual or physical cue that presents.

If only one response to a cue is learned and practiced effectively it should become a reflex action. If presented with the appropriate cue, the response will occur quickly and automatically, without the need for conscious mental processing. If more than one response for a cue is learned, and that cue presents itself, a student would have to choose between responses, requiring mental processing rather than a much faster reflex response. In situations of lesser danger, especially where one has significantly greater ability than one's opponent, this may not be a critical factor. It must be stressed that in situations of real violence fear restricts mental processes, increasing this reaction time further. The more dangerous the situation the more one needs fast reactions, but ironically more fear is usually involved, and this slowing down of reactions is dangerously heightened.

An extreme example of learning too many responses to a cue is found in one of this author's martial arts training tapes where an instructor in the style developed by Bruce Lee demonstrates an almost unbelievable multitude of variations for responding to a basic right cross punch.

The learning of too many techniques

For similar reasons that instructors tend to emphasize higher skilled techniques, too many instructors tend to teach too many techniques. One requires a certain amount of practice to learn and to retain each technique. Simply, when a large number of techniques are learned, time does not permit competency to be retained. Too many techniques are probably being learned in the following situations:

more than one response is learned for a given cue,
one learns a skill, then once that skill is evaluated or graded new skills are learned, and the original skill is neglected,
one learns different strikes that are essentially used in the same situation (a possible example is an "uppercut" fist strike and an upward elbow strike, which are both used as an upwards blow against similar targets on an opponent at close range),
one learns many specific responses rather than adaptable techniques that can be used in many situations (for example, learning possibly hundreds of different responses to handle the many different possible grip positions that can occur when grabbed by the arm)
The practice of having students perform large set numbers of technique repetitions

To practice a technique effectively, one should focus on that technique's objectives. The practice of instructing a student to perform a large set number of techniques removes this focus and tends to produce very ineffective robot-like training. As an example, consider the situation that would arise if a student was asked to perform a technique one hundred times. Initially the student may focus on the objectives of the technique, but as the series progressed focus would transfer to such things as the count, whether the instructor was watching or even what the student was going to do after training.


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## DT4EMS (Dec 24, 2006)

The communication of questionable statements

In Australia, a person can be held liable for damages caused as a result of another party following his or her advice. The main criteria is whether the person giving the information should realize that the recipient will rely upon it in circumstances in which it is reasonable to do so. Presumably similar law exists in other countries.

The following two quotes are some of many statements deserving of scrutiny that this author has found in his collection of martial arts training videos. They are both made by highly respected and influential martial artists. They are presented without judgement by this author. The reader is encouraged to draw his or her own conclusions regarding their merit and the consequences of people following the advice.

"The flow of energy is what makes it so easy to handle four or five [attackers] at one time. It gets to be very exciting" Aikido Master Ken Ota (Video: Mastering Aikido Level 6, Panther Productions).

"If my opponent holds a knife in this position [blade pointing downwards] I have my confidence because he's telling me that he doesn't really know how to use a knife. If he holds it like this (like a sword) he has an understanding of the knife and wants to use it to scare you" (Bill "Superfoot" Wallace., Undefeated world karate champion, Member of the Black Belt Hall of Fame (Video: Bill Wallace Self-Defence System, Panther Productions)

Suggestions for Organizations Using This Brief to Scrutinize Their Own Training 
An effective way to use the enclosed brief is to have experienced officers and legal counsel assess the validity and strength of each argument raised. Using those arguments found to be valid and significant, current training should be closely examined.

It should be kept in mind that officers who are injured as a result of violence may also closely examine the training, with the help of lawyers. Any inadequacy found may form a basis for legal liability. Such officers and lawyers will be able to see behind any facades developed by martial arts oriented instructors attempting to protect their interests.

To assist in the process of examination, and provide a legal safeguard, this author and his company are able to provide advice, assistance and audits of training.

The Removal of Tactically Inadequate Martial Arts Methodologies 
Unless approached in a systematic and decisive manner the removal of martial arts tactical inadequacies is very difficult because of three main factors.

Firstly, most instructors and external martial arts gurus have used methods previously described to engineer respect and close personal ties within their organization.

Secondly, most of the tactical inadequacies discussed benefit instructors and martial arts gurus in one or more of the following ways:

help engineer guru status,
help foster dependency in students, and
help justify further fees for instruction, grades and merchandise (many government instructors train members of the general public also). Instructors are most unlikely to readily concede these benefits.
Thirdly, many officers have been indoctrinated by martial arts movies, martial arts gurus and sporting practitioners to believe that these methodologies are effective.

Law enforcement and security officers are human, so even in the most professional government law enforcement and security organizations, members are not immune to these factors. As an example, according to an article in The Tactical Edge, the journal of the National Tactical Officers Association, because many officers want to be taught exotic techniques to impress family and friends in non-life threatening situations, tactical teams are taught by a myriad of instructors with absolutely no understanding of the agent's needs, equipment or mission requirements.

In South Africa, beginning with units such as the Special Task Force, SWAT Teams and Nelson Mandela's personal protection unit, this author and his company are removing tactically inadequate martial arts training methodology and are replacing it with a highly effective form of training called Kontact. From experience, pockets of resistance to changes are usually encountered, the most common being from complacent bureaucrats who have little understanding of the needs of field officers, instructors trying to protect their interests and senior officers who have been indoctrinated to believe that their guru and their course are "the best".

This author has much empathy with another group of officers who resist change. These are the experienced field officers and former field officers who have understood that all the previous defensive tactics and close quarter combat training they have been exposed to has been ineffective. They perceive such training as window dressing at best and an irresponsible waste of departmental resources at worst. They have seen many martial arts gurus and so called self-defense experts who claim that their system is "the best", that they understandably believe any one who claims to be an expert in that field, or to have a new system that is "the best", is beneath contempt.

The main requirement to overcome resistence is a commitment and directive from senior command. 
Appendix One: About the Author 
Robert Redenbach is a Senior Instructor for the South African Police Service and C.E.O. of Global Security Training P/L, a consultancy firm that provides specialist training to many of the world's leading agencies. Formerly with the Australian military, Mr. Redenbach spent three years in Korea, Japan and China studying martial arts methods. Seeking to address the inadequacies of such training, Mr. Redenbach used a period as the manager of the largest security company in Papua New Guinea to develop an innovative training system called Kontact. He is author of the book KONTACT: Training to Improve, Not to Impress.

A post graduate Masters by Research candidate, Dr Graeme Blennerhassett assists in the scientific evaluation and selection of instructional, training and combative methodologies.

Appendix Two: Where to Address Inquiries 
The Director of Operations
P.O. Box 674 Bairnsdale 3875
Australia
(Tel.) 61-(0)1 9944440
(Fax.) 61-(0)3 51523894
(Email) global@b150.aone.net.au 
Appendix Three: Checklist to assist in determining whether martial artists have corrupted law enforcement or security training.

Do the instructors make statements that seem unrealistic or exaggerated? 
Are any of the training or combative methodologies based on sporting practices, or are claimed to have cultural or traditional significance?

Do the instructors demonstrate self-defence techniques where the attacker's strikes are easily blocked? 
Do the techniques taught appear highly skilled, complicated, or even ridiculous? 
Is there a heavy emphasis or reliance upon grappling techniques? 
Does the training ignore the specific need to improve attributes such as timing, reflexes, coordination, spontaneity, speed and power plus the intangible qualities such as purpose, confidence, spirit and will to win?

Are students required to memorize complicated series of techniques? 
Is a large proportion of training time dedicated to activities of minimal relevance? 
Does the training ignore the need to provide an appreciation of the realities of real violence and a field-proven method of fear reduction?

Is training or combative methodology used that has not been field-proven as efficient and effective for its intended purpose?

Do the instructors have little or no practical appreciation of the situations students may face? 
Does any aspect of the training appear to be irrelevant to the objective of preparing officers for real violence?
Are officers allowed to work in the field without the requirement of continuous, frequent, 
ongoing training? 
Do instructors attempt to produce good body mechanics by making continuous adjustments to body movements (as a golf professional would do to produce a good golf swing)?

Is training for techniques, defenses or attacks carried out using both sides of the body equally? 
Is there a reliance or heavy emphasis on pressure point or joint manipulation? 
Are multiple responses learned to a visual or physical cue? 
Are too many techniques learned? 
Are students required to perform large set numbers of technique repetitions?



John D. Williams 
LOS ANGELES COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT 
LEADERSHIP & TRAINING DIVISION 
(213) 893-5171 jdwillia@lasd.org


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## emskyusho (Dec 24, 2006)

*Closed-Minded*

You just aren't getting it! 
1) I am not trying to take away from anybody learning from you. As I said before, I'm offering a different method for people to choose from.
2) I am NOT teaching anybody to attack or counterattack anyone! This is not JUST about self-defense, it is restraint! To restrain people, don't you have to grab people anyway?
3) You seem to have a very closed-minded perspective of martial arts. It is not just "punching kicking and blocking"... this is KYUSHO. I recommend you research the subject of kyusho before completely putting it down. You say you have pressure point training; I don't know what (limited) training you had, but you certainly didn't have the opportunity to learn much about it. I have had people who have had this training, and it works for them. 

I will have clips posted soon; I'm working on it. If you like it, great. If not, that's fine too. 
Before you said you weren't putting this down, but you seem to be fighting it very hard. I didn't come here to fight. I came here to introduce EMT's to a new option for controlling combative patients. 
If you put half the effort into promoting your own system as you have into putting mine down, you should do very well with it. You say you give a lot of it away for free, so do I. I do charge for the DVD and seminars, private lessons, etc... but I don't charge for consulting, private emails to answer questions, phone calls, Q&A on the Kyusho International forum, etc. I don't give the DVD away for free - it's like a private lesson you can watch over and over and worth every penny.


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## DT4EMS (Dec 24, 2006)

emskyusho said:


> You just aren't getting it!
> 1) I am not trying to take away from anybody learning from you. As I said before, I'm offering a different method for people to choose from.
> 2) I am NOT teaching anybody to attack or counterattack anyone! This is not JUST about self-defense, it is restraint! To restrain people, don't you have to grab people anyway?
> 3) You seem to have a very closed-minded perspective of martial arts. It is not just "punching kicking and blocking"... this is KYUSHO. I recommend you research the subject of kyusho before completely putting it down. You say you have pressure point training; I don't know what (limited) training you had, but you certainly didn't have the opportunity to learn much about it. I have had people who have had this training, and it works for them.
> ...




Please don't take personal offense. I am not  I am simply helping debate this  in an open fashion.

Like I said before I was trained as a law enforcement PPCT (Pressure Point Control) Instructor.   

When you talke "restraint" techniques......... are you teaching the EMS provider the "Law" regarding such?

Many states have laws pertaining to "patient restraint".

When I teach "restraint" techniques to EMS........... there is absolutely nothing fancy about it. It is one simple concept............. Elbow Control. 

If it is a patient you are dealing with, not an attacker........... there is no need for anything fancy. But again........if you are teaching or suggesting something that goes against the "Position" the NAEMSP has taken on pateint "restraint" you are opening up people for a law suit. Because if the "experts" say one thing and we teach something else we have failed our students.

The other thing is check on Charly Miller. She has done extensive research n patient restraint. Do you cover topics such as "Restraint Asphyxia" or Excited Delirium?

Patients die because of "restraints".

Again, please don't take this personal. I promise you this........... if you are teaching good information I will be your best ally. But "if" you are teaching crap I will gladly debate you in any setting you wish.

Restraints are a burning issue in EMS. Providers get hurt trying to apply restraints when they shouldn't and sometimes patients get hurt too. The area of pateint restraint has many, many legal ramifications that is why I keep saying it is way more than just the "physical" attributes one must have a great understanding of.


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## jeepmedic (Dec 24, 2006)

DT4EMS you say elbow control. Do you mean that if you can control the Elbow and the Knees you can control that extrimity? Because that is what I was taught by some old medics when I was a young emt. And to this day 99% of time that is all you need to control and you have them controled good enough to get away from them.


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## DT4EMS (Dec 24, 2006)

jeepmedic said:


> DT4EMS you say elbow control. Do you mean that if you can control the Elbow and the Knees you can control that extrimity? Because that is what I was taught by some old medics when I was a young emt. And to this day 99% of time that is all you need to control and you have them controled good enough to get away from them.



Yes. 

A simple single "tactic" can help with not only patient restraint but can be taken to many levels including escape.

See "technique" fails in the real world. It is having sound "tactics" regardless of what they are. Now sometimes techniques are involved in tactics but the MMA has proven many techniques useless.

Pitcure this:

You have a diabetic that you are attempting to establish an IV in......... one person holds the area of the elbow while you start the line and secure it. Here you would be acting under "implied consent".

In the self-defense setting, you have a 300lb biker coming off of the stretcher........... you slide up the bench seat as you push from behind their elbow .....all the time yelling at your partner to stop the truck so you can get out.

If you are on your back and a person is on top of you trying to crush your throat with their forearm.......... pushing from behind their elbow across your body will free your airway.

If a person is armed with an object......... getting behind the elbow and pushing it across thier body as you run the other direction..........

See............ a multitude of "techniques" can come from remembering something as simple as "Elbow Control".

And to take it a step further........ an old martial arts saying was "He who controls the elow controls the warrior".

Police officers are taught a "Straight Arm-Bar"....... some officers are successful and some are not while trying to take a person to the ground and "control/restrain" them. The officers that are successful have learned to control the elbow with the "technique". Nothing majical or mystical.

One of the guys that trains with me is 6'08 and weighs 440lbs. We get to use him for our escape training. He is one who helps us learn if something works or doesn't.

Look back in here(the training section of the forums) ......... I wrote an article on elbow control in an ambulance.   

If a person trains regularly in martial arts or DT, I offer hints on documentation and ways to read body language and how to put their techniques into their "tactics".


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## ffemt8978 (Dec 24, 2006)

emskyusho said:


> (Sorry about the "10-post rule"; I was not aware.)



This thread was allowed by the Community Leaders because we fully expected this type of open discussion.  I would suggest, however, that everyone take a deep breath before posting to this thread again as it seems emotions are starting to become strained.


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## Jon (Dec 25, 2006)

Wow.

I'm learning some intresting stuff here.I like the phrase "elbow control" Kip... it really easily expalins it. When I was taught "self protection measures" and then handcuffing (PATH) - joint control was a big thing... it is AMAZING how one can make someone cooperate with them just by holding their hand (in a certian fashion... escort holds, etc).

Jon


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## jmaccauley (Dec 26, 2006)

Obviously, Spindoctor came on board to counter the criticism of EMSKYUSHU's program. I have no problem with that, however, he missed the gist of the discussion. DT4EMS has a point from his position as a trainer/provider of medical services. My point comes from someone who regularly makes decisions on what will and will not be formerly taught to my team/department members. As a long time police/security trainer and martial artist myself, I try to remember the following: When your life is on the line, anything you do is acceptible if there are "exigent and articulable circumstances."  In those other 99 percent of cases where you must control or restrain a patient, there needs to be guidelines and protocols that pass the test of LEGAL, ETHICAL and MORAL. Toss in the medical implications of _techniques,_ and we have a whole new set of problems that must be negotiated. I regularly teach attacking motor points and nerve bundles for specific situations. I also understand the limitations that those techniques have. In a close quarters situation, what is known as fighting in the space of a phone booth, relying on pain compliance can prove fatal. I have personally broken a subjects wrist while attempting to control him. The guy never let up once and until he was in cuffs and being transported to his temporary living quarters, did he mention that his wrist felt a little sore and that maybe I could get someone to look at it when we get to the jail. Damn if wasn't broken. Was it a viable technique that got him under control? Sure, but it was in combination with many other things. Had I relied on an outside wrist lock, in both practice as well as my after action reporting, I would have either been hurt physically by him, or legally by my own agency. 

My long winded point is that I don't think that you can teach magic techniques in an 8 hour seminar, nor should you market those techniques to a population that will have little, if any, follow up training. Let's face it; Medics are healers first and warriors second.


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## DT4EMS (Dec 26, 2006)

*Position Paper*

THis is what I was talking about in regards to "Patient Restraint".

I have been in contact with Dr. Kupas. I told him some of my concerns about the NAEMSP taking such a position.......... becasue rarely there are 5 people in the back of the ambulance.

I believe they based a lot of their position from the studies of Charly Miller and Restraint Asphyxia/Exited Delirium.

I also expressed my concern of the short comment of "reasonable" force/actions to defend (self-defense) when the medic/EMT has to use force.

I have also been in contact with Anne Maggorie who wrote the last JEMS article about "Striking a patient is nevre warranted". The case she cited was a good one. She is going to write another article on how EMS CAN DEFEND THEMSELVES.

Anyway here is the position paper. I hope it helps where the "5" comes in. Because as Jerry pointed out......... if you do something that is different than what admin believes........you are putting your own butt on the line.

http://www.naemsp.org/pdf/restraint.pdf


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## BossyCow (Dec 29, 2006)

I'm sure if I wanted to invest hours and hours of training and learn martial arts that I just might have another tool in my arsenal that may come in handy some day. Not saying martial arts wouldn't be useful, just saying I'm not willing to invest in a whole new skill set.  

Perhaps its merely an asset from a dysfunctional childhood but I've been able to sweet talk most of the uncoopertative pts into compliance.  For some reason, they like me 

The truly violent, combative are 'convinced' by LEO's and handed over to me in restraints.  

Martial arts may work beautifully, but I'm not learning a new skill when my current set is accomplishing what I need it to do.


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## jmaccauley (Jan 3, 2007)

Bossy, anyone who professes to be a "damn good cook" probably doesn't need more to convince a patient to be cooperative!


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## firecoins (Jan 3, 2007)

If I may chime in here.  I realize this is my first post but...
I have 5 years experience in EMS. I study BJJ and a combatives class. The patients I most concerned about being violent are most likely high, drunk or emotionally disturned.  I have seen these people continue to fight after suffering painful injuries. I am not sure pressure points are going to be helpful when a stab wound hasn't stopped the patient.  I don't like to put down any form of martial art because I love martial arts. I just think this may be the wrong application.  

I do have some questions.

Has this system been tried in the field?  What types of calls have you used on?    Have you taken the applications to fit EMS so far?


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## emskyusho (Jan 7, 2007)

*Hope everyone had a good Holiday*

:excl: Sorry I've been gone; my computer crashed over Christmas and I had to get the whole thing reformatted.:excl: 

I know everyone seems to have a preconceived notion of what I'm talking about, but maybe I should clarify once again. THIS IS NOT TYPICAL "MARTIAL ARTS". I do not teach EMS to fight. I'm not talking Jackie Chan stuff... and it's nothing like the pressure point stuff that you may have learned. If you press on the right nerve on the arm, the arm becomes immobile until you release the nerve. It's not difficult to do, you just have to know what nerve to press and at what angle. It's not "pain compliance" ...it's simple anatomy. It is completely non-invasive. I also teach the PP or the nerve if you will that controls the Golgi tendon to control the elbow and how it's used. There are no side effects, you're not going to break any bones, or hit anyone and ANYBODY can do this. And you goal is to NOT hurt the patient what so ever. It's just a simple matter of knowing how. 

Here are just two of the reviews I have received from people who have attended my seminars and used these techniques in the field and have for a few years now:

"I have been able to use these techniques on more than one occasion. When working in the E.D., a patient became combative during an intubation and we used the pressure points above the knees to hold the patient down with little effort nad no discomfort to the patient. On the other occasion, Police officers brought us a very combative and violent intoxicated person for evaluation. We were able to subdue him using pressure points on the arm and wrist without injury to the EMS crew, the police offers, or the patient. I recommend this course to any EMS personnel that is interested in personal safety for both themselves and their partners"
-Scott Lane - EMT1

"I have been a paramedic for 12 years. On numerous occasions I have needed to prevent injury to others as well as the patient. Using these simple techniques, I have been able to start difficult IV's on seizing or head injured patients without causing harm and in fact, accelerating treatments."
-Josh Sarver - EMT - Paramedic, Lead EMT Instructor


Thanks


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## firecoins (Jan 8, 2007)

do you have a video to post?


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## emskyusho (Jan 8, 2007)

*Here is another quote from an EMT*

I recently used one of the techniques Mr. Greenwood help us with to hold a child for an IV stick, the child did not even feel the stick. No pain just success. The family was impressed that the procedure went so smoothly, it is a much safer way to hold a child for a frightening procedure. I am not a kyusho practitioner intially, so unfortunately I do not know the correct names of the points on the posterior side of the elbow. What I do know is they cannot move and they hold still and the procedure is much better for the individual and caregivers.

As for a video I am working on that. The company that produced my video is very busy and are trying to get me something good put together.


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## DT4EMS (Jan 8, 2007)

emskyusho said:


> I recently used one of the techniques Mr. Greenwood help us with to hold a child for an IV stick, the child did not even feel the stick. No pain just success. The family was impressed that the procedure went so smoothly, it is a much safer way to hold a child for a frightening procedure. I am not a kyusho practitioner intially, so unfortunately I do not know the correct names of the points on the posterior side of the elbow. What I do know is they cannot move and they hold still and the procedure is much better for the individual and caregivers.
> 
> As for a video I am working on that. The company that produced my video is very busy and are trying to get me something good put together.




Something like that could prove beneficial in the non-violent setting for sure. I would gladly back something like that. Something non-aggressive for help with IV sticks on someone with altered LOC or a child.


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## jmaccauley (Jan 8, 2007)

I don't doubt that you can teach someone something useful and I'm afraid this has turned into a bashing session. I can list many successes from my students also. Sometimes, we teach without even realizing it. We do it by being a good example. For instance, I once stopped an angry man from pushing me out of his house (I am a police officer by the way) by simply placing my foot against his knee as he stepped towards me. It was painless, subtle and he would have been injured if he hadn't stopped completely. After he calmed down and we left, my partner said he never saw a move like that and would I teach it to him. I had no idea what he was talking about. As trainers and practitioners, we have developed reflexes that require absolutely no thought whatsoever. I don't believe that teaching that knee stop technique is worthwhile. It was a tactic, not a technique. It followed a series of actions and reactions as well as orienting myself and reading body language. The options were so automatic that they were never even given a second thought. I would never present that particular movement in a seminar  to medics or police officers. It just bypasses the mental processes that are needed to complete a response system. But I bet I could make a buck by teaching it.


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## EMT012 (Jun 7, 2010)

emskyusho,

So let me see if I'm getting this right, and please correct me if I'm wayy off, are you basically speaking about body control? Simple pressure control? Would that be accurate to say?

I might also add that in many times when a patient is high on narcotics or alcohol, or some form of stimulant. They often CANNOT feel pain, therefore the pain compliance and pressure points don't do whole lot with regards to pain compliance. 

Another factor as DT4EMS mentioned was legal consequences. If your gonna use force against a patient (no matter how or what you call it) even a simple touch for restraint or control can be considered assualt against a patient. (Check your local laws)

But please correct me if I read your statements correctly!!


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## akflightmedic (Jun 7, 2010)

Its been over 3 years since he commented, but maybe your words will draw him out of hiding.


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## FLEMTP (Jun 7, 2010)

I hope not.. .watching those guys argue was stupid. They were in a "who's **** is bigger" match. DT4EMS was going to continue on and on and on because he thinks he is right. who cares... 

arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics.. no matter WHO wins.. in the end you're still retarded!


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## firecoins (Jun 7, 2010)

so Who's **** is bigger?


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## JeffDHMC (Jun 7, 2010)

The guy that's still here I'll wager.


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## firecoins (Jun 7, 2010)

If the guy isn't here but his .... is than maybe not.


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## EMT012 (Jun 9, 2010)

*Uh....*

@ FLEMTP,


LOL..... Maybe I'm apart of the special olympics and that's my specialty, jumping into a pointless argument.. ;-) .. Oh and btw: I'd win the bigger 'yahoo' match ;-)
JK...


EMT-B, CPR/AED/First Aid Instructor:


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## FLEMTP (Jun 9, 2010)

haha its ok.. i think we're all guilty of that sometimes... 







so.... i'll show you mine if you show me yours ?


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## DT4EMS (Jun 9, 2010)

FLEMTP said:


> I hope not.. .watching those guys argue was stupid. They were in a "who's **** is bigger" match. DT4EMS was going to continue on and on and on because he thinks he is right. who cares...
> 
> arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics.. no matter WHO wins.. in the end you're still retarded!



What?........... 

I didn't notice I was part of an argument........ Oh well........


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## DT4EMS (Jun 9, 2010)

Normally I don’t take too many things personal, but I will take up issue with this…… 

FLEMTP wrote “I hope not.. .watching those guys argue was stupid. They were in a "who's **** is bigger" match. DT4EMS was going to continue on and on and on because he thinks he is right. who cares... 
arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics.. no matter WHO wins.. in the end you're still retarded!”


Who cares? I care....... I have done my best to bring light to a subject that many people want to sweep under a rug. I saw a problem and have done my absolute best to offer a solution.
The reason I take a stand is when people try to make the buck off of EMS using the “widget” theory. 
I attempt to keep my posts non-argumentative. A debate is one thing. Implying someone is retarded is another.

Many, many agencies have steered away from training their staff because of horror stories after hearing about other agencies that trained under a martial artist. 

If the numbers speak for themselves…….. here is a quote from a link Dr. Maguire just sent me:
http://www.fulbright.com.au/scholars/american-scholars/2009/BrianMaguire.html

“Injury rates among ambulance personnel have been found to be higher than the rates for any other occupational group in the United States; fatality rates are more than twice the U.S. national average and are comparable with other high risk occupations such as police officers and fire-fighters.”
“Communities depend on ambulance personnel, yet studies show that the occupation carries very high risks,” Brian said. “Despite these worrying figures, very little research has been done on factors that influence risks and there have been few documented attempts to develop interventions to mitigate those risks.”

I will continue to spread the word the need for training. As long as that training was designed with EMS, not LEO or martial arts in mind.  Training for the unique environment EMS finds itself in.

You don’t see me posting in every medical thread because there are others much smarter than I am that do a fantastic job of replying. I do however respond to use-of-force threads because for 14 years it is what I have been training EMS on.

So FLEMTP,  We now have 20 instructors in several states and several EMS teaching institutions teaching our EVE programs. In July we will certify EMS and Fire training officers from two major metropolitan agencies to teach our EVE to their staff.  We are considered a subject matter expert in EMS self-defense so that makes me retarded?

If you would like to PM me, I can give you contact information for a large teaching entity close to you that can attest to “what” I am teaching EMS.  If you look, you will see a picture of him in our instructor section of our website.

So I apologize to anyone who thinks I want to argue. That is not the case. I want EMS providers to go home safe at the end of a shift and to keep their job if they ever had to use force to defend themselves.

I have never claimed to be a ninja or some bad-***……. I am a regular guy who is trying to stop people from getting hurt………period. That is why people who we have trained believe in what we are doing.

So…. Why would my suggestions of personal protection, adding my educate response, be any different than an expert in EMS application of a medical skill adding his/her educated response to a thread?

The awesome thing is……….. when I re-read over those initial posts from 2006…………. I still say the EXACT same stuff today.


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## EMT012 (Jun 13, 2010)

FLEMTP said:


> haha its ok.. i think we're all guilty of that sometimes...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




LOL> What would be the point? I'd still win!! Haha!!


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## onecrazykid108 (Jun 19, 2010)

First off, I do MA too. Second of all, you would probably be sued for using it on a person while on duty. Third, EMTs try to avoid violent situations using the 6 basic scene size up precautions. 

This question was on my first test.
"you are dispatched to 3333 blah rd. for a stabbing at a bar.  when you arrive police are not there and the bar tender runs up to you and says 'the guy is crazy he has a gun and he stabbed someone' what should you do?"

1.  Run inside and wrestle the attacker down
2. get out of the car and stick your hands up
3. go attend to the patient inside immediately just like you would for any other call
4. floor the ambulance and wait a couple blocks down the road until police arrive.

EMTs avoid getting in dangerous situations.   h34r:


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## irish_handgrenade (Jun 26, 2010)

see martial arts thread in physical fitness forum. My opinions on such "mystical" and "full proof" techniques like pressure points. I also disagree with "brute force" to restrain a pt. I can only think of 2 reasons to physically restrain a pt. 1. To keep an altered LOC pt. from injuring him/her self. 2. to protect myself or my partner, but only if there were no other options. As far as karate and all that is concerned... like I said check my posts for my documented opinion on such techniques. And pressure points are far from revolutionary...


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