# Mandatory overtime - what do you do?



## Flight-LP (Jun 22, 2009)

While sifting through other threads I noticed a short discussion about mandatory OT and how it is unsafe and frustrating. Personally, I am thinking that if I am not in condition to work an additional shift, then they do not have a Paramedic. I have never been forced to work OT. 

Fortunately in the air environment, we get sufficient rest and can go out of service for a couple of hours if we need some downtime. We also have mandatory limits on shifts, CAMTS recommends no more that 12 at a time. We do 24's with an occasional 36. With our current flight volume, this isn't too stressing.

What does your agency do? Do they prioritize your safety or the almighty buck??

What would you do if your employer mandated you to work an additional shift??


----------



## Epi-do (Jun 22, 2009)

Fortunately, I don't have to worry about this.  We don't have mandatory OT, with the exception of the late run that might come in.  If I were told I was being forced to work a full shift, I may tell them I am leaving anyway if I couldn't scramble to find a babysitter for my son.  He isn't old enough to be home alone, and I can't expect the babysitter to drop everything just because I am in a bind.


----------



## marineman (Jun 22, 2009)

Like epi we don't have mandatory overtime except the late call. I guess if they did call and tell me I had to it would depend on me, if I feel I would be able to provide adequate patient care while maintaining my safety, my patients safety, and the publics safety (uh oh did I just mention public safety in EMS) while working the shift I would but just like it was bashed into our heads during class safety comes first and if I don't feel comfortable doing it I'll tell them to take a hike.


----------



## NolaRabbit (Jun 22, 2009)

Mandated OT is one of the neccessary evils where I work. It sucks, but that's the rules.


----------



## exodus (Jun 22, 2009)

We signed a contract when we came on saying we can be put onto a call within 2 hours of our assigned end of shift time. But if we're at a point where we've been ran hard all day, and it is unsafe to do so, a call to the Supervisor can fix that.


----------



## vquintessence (Jun 22, 2009)

Mandatory overtime is a fact of life for Paramedics and some BLS shifts at both jobs.  I wouldn't be so dramatic as to say they prioritize profits over my life and others.. but there is company policy at BOTH jobs that essentially state "the employee shall remain on shift until he/she is relieved by an equal or higher level of healthcare provider".  That ultimatum applied only to "dedicated 911 trucks" for both employers and one went further to include two of our ALS transfer/intercept trucks.



> What would you do if your employer mandated you to work an additional shift?



Quite simple, I'd do it.  Sure it may happen after a busy overnight with 5+ transports, or when I've promised to babysit my brothers children, or go to the second job... but all the reminding needs to be is:

Remembering that during the employment interview that I was made aware of the company's policies and guidelines.  Being held over for a few hours, or fifteen minutes, or another 12 hours is what comes with the territory.  If someone or myself can't deal with company policy, then petition to change it or start looking for a new job.  NOBODY is forcing you to work there.

Historically a lot of the people who complained the loudest, were typically those who juggled their schedules very poorly and stretched themselves dangerously thin.  They were the primary instrument to their own demise.
Example:  Scheduled at job A to work a 24 hour shift that ends at 07:00 Monday.  Also scheduled to work a 12 hour shift at job B at 08:00 also on Monday.  Scheduled Tuesday back to job A for 24 hours ending at 07:00 on Wednesday.  Back to job B for 8 hours on 08:00 Wednesday.
Whenever that person gets out late from job A, they're late for job B.  What if the person gets a late transfer at job B, so cannot sleep enough to be fully alert for a shift at job A... *OH WAIT!*  when does their personal life enter the equation?  Kids, spouse, elderly parents, pets, house work, yard work perhaps, bills/errands, and somewhere/sometime the occasional few minutes for your friends.

It's scary how many people do this!  And annoying hearing their complaints/excuses when they're late, or bang out of a shift, or get a written reprimand, or perform their job poorly.  Jesus, what a rant!  Back away... back away...

P.S.  For the safety issue brought up regarding exhaustion, like exodus stated, a quick and honest call to a supervisor will create a solution.


----------



## WolfmanHarris (Jun 22, 2009)

We are required to work overtime if it comes in, but that is essentially for late calls only. In fact barring an MCI or disaster, we will be taken out of service after 2 hours of overtime by the Supervisor, regardless of the directions from the Central Ambulance Communications Centre (CACC) as an Occupational Health and Safety Issue. A full shift of OT (24hours) would violate labour laws and OH&S and could result in an investigation and fines for the employer and the Supervisor who allowed it. I'd have to go digging into the act to reference these specifically if you'd like it. But somehow I doubt it's too relevant.

Were we required to stay on due to an MCI, a plan is still in place to rotate staff out of the situation, at the very least to a rehab area on a regular basis.


----------



## cperschke (Jun 22, 2009)

vquintessence said:


> It's scary how many people do this!  And annoying hearing their complaints/excuses when they're late, or bang out of a shift, or get a written reprimand, or perform their job poorly.  Jesus, what a rant!  Back away... back away...



I'm not in EMS.  Yet.  But I have worked public safety.  I have been required to work mandatory overtime, although I was in a position where I had a legal obligation to take action, or quit.  But quiting was only allowed if there was no immediate legal obligation for me to act.  

Anyways, I worked with many good people that had second jobs, even a few that had 3 jobs.  All of them because they needed to support thier families.

The reason Doctors and Nurses don't often work multiple jobs is because they usually get paid very adequately to support thier families.

I'd be willing to bet if emts were making more than $8-$12 or $17-$20 per hour they wouldn't need so many jobs.

I think if emts and medics made more like what LPNs make it would be better.


----------



## TransportJockey (Jun 22, 2009)

When I worked IFT here in ABQ, the only mandatory OT was the last 8 hours of our fourth 12 hour shift. Never been forced into additional shifts, just volunteered for extras


----------



## VentMedic (Jun 22, 2009)

cperschke said:


> I think if emts and medics made more like what LPNs make it would be better.


 
Search the many threads about education differences...even when compared to LPNs.


----------



## CAOX3 (Jun 22, 2009)

It happens, nature of the beast.  They can only hold us four hours. Usually people will volunteer to take the overtime.


----------



## Ridryder911 (Jun 22, 2009)

Most EMS that are 24 has overtime built in or bargained in. Flight, I am glad to see that they follow CAMTS suggestions, I know of many that do not. I personally have worked for more than 28 hours straight on a helo with the intermittent changes of pilots (since they get to turn into pumpkins after 8 hours). 


I know of very few EMS that does not require some over time. It is the nature of the beast, on the other hand I know of many EMT's and Paramedics that "bank" upon that overtime as well. Management does not like to have to pay for it, so when the well dries up... guess who is the first to complain. 

R/r911


----------



## WolfmanHarris (Jun 22, 2009)

Oh we also are not allowed to work within eight hours of a shift with the employer or any other employer so as to assure we're rested for shift.

On that note, I need sleep. I have to be up at 0400 for work.


----------



## EMTinNEPA (Jun 22, 2009)

My personal record is 32 straight hours, followed by an hour off and 8 hours at another service.


----------



## reaper (Jun 22, 2009)

We may get a late call, that would put you an hour or so over end of shift. You can pick up overtime, but it is never forced. Here they will never call you in from home, no matter what. They will send out pages with openings, if you want them. We are allowed to work 36 hrs straight and no more. They will only allow this at a slow county station. If you work a 36 and are in the city, they will move you to the slowest station for the last 12 hrs.

If you feel that you are exhausted and cannot safely do the job, you just call the supervisor and they will pull you off the truck and send you home. No questions asked and no repercussions. They do hold crew safety to a high standard!


----------



## JPINFV (Jun 22, 2009)

Ignoring the late call scenario, my old company didn't require overtime, but did put calls out to units to see if they were willing to stay. Considering that employment laws in California only exempt 24 hour crews from daily overtime (California: any time over 8 is at 1.5x pay and any time over 12 is 2x pay), it was kinda of hard to turn down $20+ an hour unless my partner or I were tired (but I'm a night person anyways).


----------



## CAOX3 (Jun 22, 2009)

Similar to our system.  If you get a call at 0630 and your off at 0700 it time and a half.  If you are held with no relief it is double time.


----------



## JPINFV (Jun 22, 2009)

I don't think it's that similar. The thing with our shifts was that they were 12 hour shifts, so there was 4 hours of time and a half built in already and any time being held over was automatically at double time due to labor laws.


----------



## lightsandsirens5 (Jun 22, 2009)

Just out of curiosity, how does mand. OT work. I mean, what is the point of even having a scedule if you aren't going to work within the confines of that shift?


----------



## NolaRabbit (Jun 23, 2009)

lightsandsirens5 said:


> Just out of curiosity, how does mand. OT work. I mean, what is the point of even having a scedule if you aren't going to work within the confines of that shift?



I hear ya. It sucks when you can't completely bank on having your scheduled days off. It's even harder to plan a vacation, especially where I work. Sure, my paystub might say I have 200 hours, but there's no guarantee I'll get any of them when I request to use them.

My workplace uses a lottery system if no one volunteers. We are a city service and have a lot of details for various events around town. If any of those details are not filled, then everyone's name that is off that day is put into a hat. Had something planned that day? Sucks! If you can't find anyone else to work it for you, then you either come in  or take the writeup (or suspension or termination, depending on how many times you've been previously counseled).

It's not the ideal situation, but it doesn't happen every day, and even less so now that the city is finally tightening its belt and cutting down on OT budgets.


----------



## JPINFV (Jun 23, 2009)

How does one plan a trip if they can be called back at any time? It's kinda of hard to show up for a shift if you're halfway across the country


----------



## reaper (Jun 23, 2009)

NolaRabbit said:


> I hear ya. It sucks when you can't completely bank on having your scheduled days off. It's even harder to plan a vacation, especially where I work. Sure, my paystub might say I have 200 hours, but there's no guarantee I'll get any of them when I request to use them.
> 
> My workplace uses a lottery system if no one volunteers. We are a city service and have a lot of details for various events around town. If any of those details are not filled, then everyone's name that is off that day is put into a hat. Had something planned that day? Sucks! If you can't find anyone else to work it for you, then you either come in  or take the writeup (or suspension or termination, depending on how many times you've been previously counseled).
> 
> It's not the ideal situation, but it doesn't happen every day, and even less so now that the city is finally tightening its belt and cutting down on OT budgets.



Time for the service to give all event coverage to a private service an worry about the 911 service soley!


----------



## Sasha (Jun 23, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> How does one plan a trip if they can be called back at any time? It's kinda of hard to show up for a shift if you're halfway across the country



Shoot, how does someone have a kid, a significant other, go to school or have any type of life when they can pull that kinda crap?

I'd quit that service!


----------



## CAOX3 (Jun 23, 2009)

NolaRabbit said:


> I hear ya. It sucks when you can't completely bank on having your scheduled days off. It's even harder to plan a vacation, especially where I work. Sure, my paystub might say I have 200 hours, but there's no guarantee I'll get any of them when I request to use them.
> 
> My workplace uses a lottery system if no one volunteers. We are a city service and have a lot of details for various events around town. If any of those details are not filled, then everyone's name that is off that day is put into a hat. Had something planned that day? Sucks! If you can't find anyone else to work it for you, then you either come in  or take the writeup (or suspension or termination, depending on how many times you've been previously counseled).
> 
> It's not the ideal situation, but it doesn't happen every day, and even less so now that the city is finally tightening its belt and cutting down on OT budgets.



Your a city service without a union and seniority list?


----------



## Hockey (Jun 23, 2009)

Can't force somebody to come in for OT when you don't answer your phone


Its not that hard


----------



## 46Young (Jun 24, 2009)

My first EMS job, Hunter Ambulance-Ambulette(private), could give you a late job up to the end of your shift. North Shore LIJ, a hospital based NYC 911/interfacility agency had a cap on 16 consecutive hours plus late job. FDNY EMS also has a 16 hour cap on hours, and uses 8 hour shifts. When the KVO is in effect, you can sign up for three shifts for the month, and not be touched for that month. If not in effect, you're fair game. Charleston County EMS, a municipal third service 911 provider, has 24 hour shifts, and you can be held for up to 24 additional hours, capped at 48 hours, for any unit in the county, as frequently as they like. About twice monthly, you are subject for 12 hours of recall, should someone bang in. You aren't paid a stipend for having to stay local, only if you are called in. Fairfax County FRD has 24 hour shifts, with a 36 hour cap on consecutive hours. You may be infrequently recalled. It is rare. If you have plans(travel, MD appointment,etc), at morning lineup, you sign the "no hold or recall list", to get off at the end of your shift unscathed. In any event, if you're subject to mandatory recall, either don't answer your phone, or tell them you've had several alcoholic beverages since you've returned home. They can't really say anything, at that point. Unless it's in your contract, there is nothing stopping you from drinking alcohol after your shift. I'm not saying to get boxed after your shift, just say you did when they call.


----------

