# Your Ideal Uniform



## Talonrazor (Apr 10, 2012)

Hopefully this is the correct place...

I am currently restructuring my agency and one area I am changing is our uniforms. I wanted to get people's opinions on issued uniforms. Currently we use crappy Flying Cross and Propper uniform EMS Pants and duty shirts. Because we deal with mostly medical custody, they are all dark LAPD Blue and styled to look like police or security uniforms.

What would your ideal uniform look like?

I am currently getting bids for a 5.11 outfit. 5.11 EMS pants paired with 5.11 Class B PDU shirts, both black in color for our security personnel/intake specialists/drivers and dark midnight blue for EMTs/Command Staff. Left shoulder is agency patch, right shoulder is State of Alaska EMT or ETT patch for medical personnel. Left Chest will be either a Galls EMT metal badge for EMTs or a security officer badge for our security personnel. Non-medical or security will sport nothing. 

On right chest we will use Blackington Commendation bars to mark various positions. The EMS bar for EMTs, Instructor bar for in-house instructors, FTO bar for FTOs, etc. NREMT pins will be worn above that if registered. Full-time EMTs that have earned good-standing with us for a certain amount of time will be awarded EMT collar brass pins. 

5.11 Job Shirts will sport agency patch on chest with agency name screen printed on the back. 

Duty belts contain gloves, flashlights, multi-tools and radios for medical and for security usual layout of handcuffs, batons, etc. 

What do you guys use/like/dislike?

EDIT: Oh, also looking to use Conterra's Tool Chest radio harness for radio equipment/medical supplies for our field crews that pick-up public inebriates and respond to man-down calls in the city. Anyone use those?


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## Aprz (Apr 10, 2012)

At my company, I love that we have our names and whether we are an EMT/Paramedic/Supervisor on our uniform, but I miss having cargo pants (now I stuff gloves in my regular pockets). At my previous company, I disliked that we had the big EMT/Paramedic patch on our back. I disliked metal name plates.


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## lawndartcatcher (Apr 10, 2012)

Black hooded rode and a scythe. 

What?

We still use class B (light blue shirt, dark blue pants) uniforms, and they're nice for several reasons:

Dark blue pants = harder to see the stains
Light blue shirt w/ badge (and nothing else) = what everyone expects to see
Paramedic pants = wider cut in the crotch and plenty of pockets
Black boots and black belt (to match the small clutch purse)

I've had guys rave about the 5.11 pants; it was only recently that we got a local vendor. I don't like buying clothes that I can't try on first. So I'll reserve judgement until I get into a pair of their pants. (insert dating joke here).

I also prefer a minimalist approach to patches / badges / collar pins / medals for perfect attendance / giant clocks hanging from gold chains. One department-issued badge, one service patch, and one certification (glitter ball!) on the opposite shoulder. And a "Junior Paramedic" sticker if it's 5:00 am and they left us some in the ambulance from kid's day.


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## Veneficus (Apr 10, 2012)

*If I had my way?*

I like short sleeve duty shirts that zip with fake buttons over a layer of underarmor and a turtleneck in the winter. 

I don't like jackets that hang as they always get blood just past the cuffs or you spend too much time worry about it.

Because of the safety issue, bright colors with black EMS pants with some reflective material on the pockets.

The best sweatshirt I ever had I still have and it is from illuminite. So it looks black until you shine a light on it and the whole thing is reflective.

I am a big fan of that company.

Boots are a personal choice. 

As for name, I like only the first name showing. I have a unique last name, everyone with it in the world is related, and I have worked in places where people may look you up if they are pissed at you.

I am not a fan of military or other rank insignias. I think it is only for ego. The people you work with should reasonably know what rank you are without such nonsense by virtue of a different color shirt, usually white. (I have also worked in some pretty large agencies)

I prefer the cargo style pants over without.

This gets the best look to function in my opinion.

If I had my way the lime green reflective suits the Brits use would be ideal. The Polish use Red of the same kind, but I think the green looks better and is higher visibility. Dark blue may defeat the purpose of the visibility.


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## TheGodfather (Apr 10, 2012)

Shirt --> 9.11 tactical polo with pen slots in sleeve (dark blue with credentials stitched into right chest + agency name in left chest)
Pants --> Dark blue (with or without pockets) -- not a huge deal for me.
Boots --> black steel toe with side zips and ankle support - lightweight + water resistant.


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## DesertMedic66 (Apr 10, 2012)

Black boots (with some kind of safety toe)
Black belt
Light blue uniform shirt
Cargo pants
Watch
Name plate
Metal badge

The only thing I don't like about our company issued uniforms is they don't last. But that's not an issue because the company pays for the uniform. We also have long sleeve uniform shirts and we have a choice of 2 cargo pant styles. 

For undershirts as long as they are dark blue or white then we can wear them. Also for breast cancer awareness month we can wear pink undershirts.


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## Sasha (Apr 10, 2012)

My ideal uniform would be the button down shirt made of anti wrinkle material in a color that is not white. I prefer my name badge to anything stitched in, I wear it with the blank side out, and decorate it with stickers. I don't like people in the line at the gas station knowing my name. 

Navy blue pants with all the pockets... Cut for a woman, not a man. 

The velcro belts. 

Zipper boots. Personal preference. I like the zippers.


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## Veneficus (Apr 10, 2012)

Sasha said:


> The velcro belts.



One of the firefighters I used to work with has a maltese cross burned into his waist from a metal buckle on his belt.

For EMS, it is probably not as big of an issue.


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## Sasha (Apr 10, 2012)

Veneficus said:


> One of the firefighters I used to work with has a maltese cross burned into his waist from a metal buckle on his belt.
> 
> For EMS, it is probably not as big of an issue.



I like the velcro. Maybe its the little kid in me.


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## EpiEMS (Apr 10, 2012)

Non-iron cotton would be nice. Or Nomex?
(The Trekkie in me wants nomex jumpsuits.)


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## SoCal911 (Apr 10, 2012)

Used to work at a service who gave us all Nomex everything. I LOVED it.


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## medicsb (Apr 10, 2012)

My only major opinion: No metal badges.  No embroidered badges.  (Leave those to the police.)


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## RocketMedic (Apr 10, 2012)

I'm not a huge fan of looking like LEOs. I like being neutral (in appearance).

Acadian's uniforms are on point.


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## nwhitney (Apr 10, 2012)

I second the jumpsuits, no butt crack to worry about.


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## dmc2007 (Apr 10, 2012)

I'm not a big fan of badges either, unless EMS in a particular area has certain special police powers.  I'm never a fan of private EMS wearing badges-very tacky IMO.


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## EpiEMS (Apr 10, 2012)

Perhaps badges for medics only?


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## medicdan (Apr 10, 2012)

I'm in favor of a uniform package that does not need constant ironing to look presentable. Material that is easily cleanable (and decontaminated) but also crisp and durable. I'll echo the aversion to badges-- we are NOT Law Enforcement, and I'd prefer not to look like them.

My priorities are durability, presentation and flexibility.


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## medichopeful (Apr 10, 2012)

EpiEMS said:


> Perhaps badges for medics only?



So they can attack the one who's in charge? :huh:


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## EpiEMS (Apr 10, 2012)

medichopeful said:


> So they can attack the one who's in charge? :huh:



:rofl:


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## DesertMedic66 (Apr 10, 2012)

I actually like my badge. It brings out the color of my eyes haha.

To me it would look weird if the police and fire department are on scene with uniforms and badges then there is the ambulance crew in polo shirts with no badges lol.


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## medichopeful (Apr 10, 2012)

firefite said:


> I actually like my badge. It brings out the color of my eyes haha.
> 
> To me it would look weird if the police and fire department are on scene with uniforms and badges then there is the ambulance crew in polo shirts with no badges lol.



Not calling you out but why do you say that?


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## DesertMedic66 (Apr 10, 2012)

medichopeful said:


> Not calling you out but why do you say that?



The general public views professionals as always wearing some sort of uniform. EMS is seen as a public service with professionals taking care of you. Fire is seen as a public service with professionals that take care of you and protect your property. Police is seen as a public service with professionals that keep the public safe. 

If the public isn't happy with something it gets changed. So we have to keep the public happy.


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## socalmedic (Apr 10, 2012)

I second what Firefite said, I think my midnight navy class B with badge and metal name tag make me look like a professional in the eyes of the public, but then again I also wash the ambulance every shift...


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## shfd739 (Apr 10, 2012)

I think the FD in my hometown got it right when they moved from poly, look like police navy blue pants/button down shirts to 5.11 tan button down shorts and blue pants.

It made them instantly recognizable as NOT po-po along being cooler in the summer. 

Why the need for all the uniform pin on bling? Is it really neccessary to have pins identifying what people do?

I love my employers uniform because it isnt blue. Now if we could move to more comfortable items Id be happy.


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## TheLocalMedic (Apr 10, 2012)

The company I work for is also deciding on new uniform styles, and the overwhelming theme we seem to have is "_anything_ but jumpsuits!"  That being said, I'm a big fan of the classic navy blue button up with county and company shoulder patches and a gold name bar on the front.  Too many pins, rockers and add-ons just start to make things look messy and give people extra things to take off their shirts before tossing them in the laundry.  Blue shirt, blue pants, boots and a nice jacket are all you need to look professional.  Forget the "superhero" utility belts and chest vests, to an experienced person these look goofy, and if people want them, they can get them on their own dime.


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## Bullets (Apr 10, 2012)

What i wear
Navy botton downs/polos when its warm
navy cargo pants
black boots, belt
unit patch, cert patch, name tapes


What i would like
Neon and green jumpsuits like the UK, far more funtional and easier to doff and donn at night


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## Veneficus (Apr 10, 2012)

Rocketmedic40 said:


> I'm not a huge fan of looking like LEOs. I like being neutral (in appearance).
> 
> Acadian's uniforms are on point.



I wouldn't go that far, if they are still the dark green shirts with the dark green pants, it is almost invisible on the street at night.


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## NomadicMedic (Apr 10, 2012)

We wear nomex flight suits. Name tapes with name and rank. Agency patch on left, NR medic patch on the right, service embroidered on the back.  I wasn't a fan in the beginning, now I couldn't go back to a regular uniform. 

Comfortable, instantly identifiable as a medic and easy to take one and off.


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## EpiEMS (Apr 10, 2012)

n7lxi said:


> We wear nomex flight suits. Name tapes with name and rank. Agency patch on left, NR medic patch on the right, service embroidered on the back.  I wasn't a fan in the beginning, now I couldn't go back to a regular uniform.
> 
> Comfortable, instantly identifiable as a medic and easy to take one and off.



See, that's basically the perfect uniform. Any reflective material? If it were an ANSI 2 or 3 compliant uniform, it'd be perfect.


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## shfd739 (Apr 10, 2012)

Veneficus said:


> I wouldn't go that far, if they are still the dark green shirts with the dark green pants, it is almost invisible on the street at night.



Yep still the same dark pants and mint green shirts for medics with the bosses in white shirts. I like how it looks different from the normal shades of blue most of the others are wearing. 

I would like to see a brighter green like used overseas with the reflective material added in. Would be alot more visible.


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## Veneficus (Apr 10, 2012)

shfd739 said:


> Yep still the same dark pants and mint green shirts for medics with the bosses in white shirts. I like how it looks different from the normal shades of blue most of the others are wearing.
> 
> I would like to see a brighter green like used overseas with the reflective material added in. Would be alot more visible.



definately could use some reflective material


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## NomadicMedic (Apr 10, 2012)

EpiEMS said:


> See, that's basically the perfect uniform. Any reflective material? If it were an ANSI 2 or 3 compliant uniform, it'd be perfect.



Yeah. Reflective stripes on the sides, and when we're out in a place where we need to be ANSI compliant (read: MVAs) out come the bright yellow 5.11 super reflective coats.


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## EpiEMS (Apr 10, 2012)

n7lxi said:


> Yeah. Reflective stripes on the sides, and when we're out in a place where we need to be ANSI compliant (read: MVAs) out come the bright yellow 5.11 super reflective coats.



The more reflective stuff, the better, far as I can tell.


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## DrParasite (Apr 11, 2012)

to the OP, I think you need to remember that everyone will suggest what they use, and what they like.  plus, everyone's personal preferences will have to be taken into account.

I LOVE 5.11 tactical polo shirts.  The pen holder on the sleeve is awesome, and I think they are super comfortable.  Name gets embroidered on one side of the chest, and agency logo embroidered (preferred) or silk screened on the opposite side.  As for color, dark, either navy blue or some other dark color to hide the dirt.  On the back, put agency identification silk screened on.  If you want a button down shirt, either light blue, dark blue, grey, or some other color.

For all supervisors, white shirts.  Agency ranks are sewn on collar insignia on job shirt, button down shirts, and on epaulets on jackets.

For the cooler days, get a Game Gear jobshirt, with name on one side, and agency patches and level of training as appropriate.  if you use badges (and I actually like them, esp cloth ones on job shirts), put them on the opposite side.

As for Pants, I LOVE my Spiewak EMS pants.  Best part of them is the cargo pockets zipper closed, so you don't have to worry about things falling out.






I have never worn this, but my agency was looking at getting these:




The reason was it's versatile, can be used in various weather conditions, and it meets the visibility requirement for highway jobs.  It is a little pricey, but it's 6 used save you having to buy a light and heavy jacket, and it has a hood.

Boots, belts, and thermal gloves are the individuals responsibility.  

I don't like any name tags, because they get lost, or they can stick the wearer if they end up in an uncomfortable position (been there, done that).  Ditto EMT bars.  Photo IDs need to be carried on the person, but since names are embroidered, no need to attach an ID (which can get lost way too easily, been there done that).

Like it or not, badges are used by the fire service and law enforcement for a reason.  it helps add to the professionalism, and is good for frontal identification.  If you want to be considered one of the big boys, do what they do.


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## Sasha (Apr 11, 2012)

DrParasite said:


> to the OP, I think you need to remember that everyone will suggest what they use, and what they like.  plus, everyone's personal preferences will have to be taken into account.
> 
> I LOVE 5.11 tactical polo shirts.  The pen holder on the sleeve is awesome, and I think they are super comfortable.  Name gets embroidered on one side of the chest, and agency logo embroidered (preferred) or silk screened on the opposite side.  As for color, dark, either navy blue or some other dark color to hide the dirt.  On the back, put agency identification silk screened on.  If you want a button down shirt, either light blue, dark blue, grey, or some other color.
> 
> ...



I don't want to be considered fire or LEO. 

I am a medical professional.

I stated before. I like my name badge. It is a clip not a pin and can be turned around and removed when I don't want people to know my name.


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## DrParasite (Apr 11, 2012)

Sasha said:


> I don't want to be considered fire or LEO.
> 
> I am a medical professional.


Sure, if you want to stick with your 12 an hour job, no pension, being treated like crap and constantly underfunded, that's your choice.  And you don't have to be considered Fire or LEO, but you want to be seen as an equal to both fire and LEO, especially on a scene when you are both operating, and when the distribution of funding is being considered. 

otherwise EMS will continue to be the :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: step child of the emergency services family (and yes, medical professionals are part of emergency services).


Sasha said:


> I stated before. I like my name badge. It is a clip not a pin and can be turned around and removed when I don't want people to know my name.


what you are describing sounds like an ID badge; I was referring to a metal name badge.

As others have said, part of being a professional is being accountable for your actions, and many states REQUIRE you to have your name displayed.  

from a customer service standpoint, but aren't you supposed to introduce yourself to the patient?  and if not, if they ask for your name, and you don't want them to know your name, then what?  do you lie to them? 

Think of it this way: do other medical professionals hide their names?  I know many ER doctors who have their names embroidered on their white coats, as well as on their scrubs.  And JAACO requires ID to be identified at all times.

It's called being a professional.  If you look and act like one, you have a better chance of being treated (and funded) as one


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## adamjh3 (Apr 11, 2012)

Navy blue tracksuit. Certification/licensure patch on the right, agency patch on the left. Throw some reflective striping down the sides of the pants and you're good to go. Oh, and make sure the pants are tear away with the snaps down the leg so you can just tear them right off and drop them into a bio bag when they get contaminated. No need for a shirt under the track jacket.

seriously, though, my school uniform shirts are class Bs made by Horace-small, I like them, they're comfortable and don't really need to be ironed.


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## Sasha (Apr 11, 2012)

DrParasite said:


> Sure, if you want to stick with your 12 an hour job, no pension, being treated like crap and constantly underfunded, that's your choice.  And you don't have to be considered Fire or LEO, but you want to be seen as an equal to both fire and LEO, especially on a scene when you are both operating, and when the distribution of funding is being considered.
> 
> otherwise EMS will continue to be the :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: step child of the emergency services family (and yes, medical professionals are part of emergency services).
> what you are describing sounds like an ID badge; I was referring to a metal name badge.
> ...



Sure I introduce myself to patients but I don't want Jo bob walking up to me in the gas station and knowing my name. You don't know if he's some creepy stalker freak. After a few "hey sasha!" From strangers I started to flip it around. I've also run into creepy guys who grab my name tag to "read" my name easier. Being that it hangs very near my breast you can imagine how this feels like an invasion of personal space. 

Flipped around no one has done those things. 

 If someone's angry and wants to see my name I can easily flip it around for them.


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## DrParasite (Apr 11, 2012)

Sasha said:


> Sure I introduce myself to patients but I don't want Jo bob walking up to me in the gas station and knowing my name. You don't know if he's some creepy stalker freak. After a few "hey sasha!" From strangers I started to flip it around. I've also run into creepy guys who grab my name tag to "read" my name easier. Being that it hangs very near my breast you can imagine how this feels like an invasion of personal space.
> 
> Flipped around no one has done those things.
> 
> If someone's angry and wants to see my name I can easily flip it around for them.


I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this topic. 

I don't display my ID ever on my uniform.  I used to, but after losing one on a cardiac arrest, and another after a rollover, and lastly after I got into scrape with an EDP (PD wasn't on scene), i decided the clips suck and after $30 each to replace it, now it stays in my pocket.  Supervisor always bugged me about it, but I wasn't paying for a new one (again).  

At my new job, my name is embroidered on my polo, job shirt, and my button down uniform shirts.  ID still stays in my pocket, and can be presented upon request.

btw, if I were you, and a creepy guy grabbed my ID, his arm would be removed, either by me or by LEO.  Don't touch me, don't grab any part of me, don't grab anything on me; if you do, my response will not be pleasant.  and if I was a tiny hottie (no offense), I would expect my partner to take appropriate action.  But that's just me, and your actions and opinion might differ.


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## Sandog (Apr 11, 2012)

I have to wear uncomfortable nomex uniforms. Feels like sandpaper.


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## TheLocalMedic (Apr 11, 2012)

I wore a jumpsuit for years at one job, and I just hated it, as did many of my coworkers.  We felt that we looked like mechanics and if the fit wasn't just right they were extremely uncomfortable.  We timed how long it took to get dressed in a jumpsuit as compared to a regular uniform, and there really wasn't much of a difference, so the whole "getting dressed quicker at night" argument was bunk.


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## Talonrazor (Apr 11, 2012)

OP here. 

We've looked at jumpsuits but since we are more of public enforcement agency, there is no need to do the whole "dress at night" thing. Biggest concern is uniforms that last, since we get into scuffles all the time here and I find normal EMS gear is ripping when subduing detainees.

I am in the middle of pushing us into a new era for the agency, going from the "contractor drunk tank guys" to a respected EMS/security agency of the Health & Human Services department. I want us to look sharp and professional. We also need uniforms that command sharp attention and are aggressive. Our agency picks up inebriates or drug-users from hotels, businesses, sidewalks, homeless shelters, etc to transport to the detention facility at the jail so something that will encourage cooperation is ideal. 

I don't like the white shirts for supervisors at all. They look tacky and I personally, as commander, don't feel like constantly dealing with stains from blood or bodily fluids. Because of our work, we also don't have any identification visible anywhere on the uniforms. I do not want name badges anywhere. 

We currently have duty t-shirts that are issued to personnel that are colored for each role. Black is for security/intakes/drivers, Dark Navy for EMTs, Grey for FTOs, and Deep Marine Blue for command staff (dispatch, commander, medical director). The shirts have the agency patch screen-printed on the front left chest and beneath it the position (EMT, FTO, Intake, etc). On the back is the agency name, screen printed, as well as star of life to designate medical personnel. The idea is easy identification by assisting agencies (LEOs, Fire, EMS, Military; which we also work with) so they know who is security, who are the medics, who are the front-line supervisors. 

I am thinking the same concept for the 5.11s. Black for security officers, Dark Navy for EMTs, lighter blue shirt for supervisors. 

I like the suggestions for the jackets. We really need to re-do our field jackets as we have currently issued Carharrts but being in Alaska, we need warmer gear that can also convert to summer wear. 

Keep the input coming, very valuable....


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## Miscusi (Apr 11, 2012)

have them all wear shirts ties and white lab coats...

ok ok... just kidding

about "Currently we use crappy Flying Cross and Propper uniform EMS Pants and duty shirts."

I LOVE MY FLYING CROSS uniform items !  they rock ! I just dont know why you dont like them, but anyway, my 2 cents

I like to think the FDNY has it right when they took away the police looking badges from NYC EMS.  

Medical should look medical, and I think the standard FDNY look is very nice. I like the big patches that readily IDs who you are and what you do, and the dark standard uniform shirt and pants gives confidence to any patient. 

Duty belts... i think duty belts are more for police than EMS.  I have worn different types of walkies in the past, including the motorola saber and vertex standard...  yes they are a bit heavy and is very good to have a belt, but maybe smaller agencies would prefer the smaller and lighter radios that can clip to the pants belt...  

I have a firefighter radio strap and holster setup for my current radio, it really takes the weight off the pants.  anything else goes into my tech bag.

A bit of fashion advice from a professional clothing person:  empty the pockets, buldging pockets are ugly.   i think hes right.  pockets too full of stuff dont look professional at all.

well, besto f luch to ypu,


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## NomadicMedic (Apr 11, 2012)

Uh, not for nothing, but aren't you just an EMT student with no experience? Why would you have a flying cross uniform shirt, radio strap or any occasion to use or carry a Vertex or Saber?


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## DrParasite (Apr 11, 2012)

Talonrazor said:


> Biggest concern is uniforms that last, since we get into scuffles all the time here and I find normal EMS gear is ripping when subduing detainees.


fair enough.  why not ask the local law enforcement what they use? 

In my experience (as the city PD uses them for summer wear), 5.11 tactical polos work, you just need to get enough to handle when they get ripped during scuffles.


Talonrazor said:


> We also need uniforms that command sharp attention and are aggressive.


sounds like you want something that an PD ESU or SWAT unit would wear.  might not go in line in an EMS look though.


Talonrazor said:


> I don't like the white shirts for supervisors at all. They look tacky and I personally, as commander, don't feel like constantly dealing with stains from blood or bodily fluids.


The reason supervisors wear white is that they typically are not getting dirty.  They are usually off the road or office personnel, supervising the dirty work getting done instead of doing it themselves (think FDNY chiefs, police Lt, and other upper management people who sit behind a desk most of the day).


Talonrazor said:


> Because of our work, we also don't have any identification visible anywhere on the uniforms. I do not want name badges anywhere.


please explain.  

I know many many police departments that have names on their patrol uniforms.  Many states require names to be visible on the uniforms of EMS personnel.

As I said before, if you are a professional agency, doing what you are supposed to, you should have no problems putting your last name on a uniform shirt.  


Talonrazor said:


> We currently have duty t-shirts that are issued to personnel that are colored for each role. Black is for security/intakes/drivers, Dark Navy for EMTs, Grey for FTOs, and Deep Marine Blue for command staff (dispatch, commander, medical director). The shirts have the agency patch screen-printed on the front left chest and beneath it the position (EMT, FTO, Intake, etc). On the back is the agency name, screen printed, as well as star of life to designate medical personnel. The idea is easy identification by assisting agencies (LEOs, Fire, EMS, Military; which we also work with) so they know who is security, who are the medics, who are the front-line supervisors.
> 
> I am thinking the same concept for the 5.11s. Black for security officers, Dark Navy for EMTs, lighter blue shirt for supervisors.


T-shirts are incredibly cheap, and incredibly comfy.  a 5.11 polo might cost you $50 each, while a T-shirt can be $8 each.  so if you are going through uniforms very quickly, you might want to stick with the t-shirts.   But you will have to find a uniforms that works best for your agency type, and for what you will be doing (which sounds like isn't typical ambulance work).

btw, the Spiewak pants I mentioned earlier can't be over stuffed, so you won't have the bulging side pockets problem.  I don't know if it's just how they are sewn, or how they are designed, but they look professional even if there are stuff in the pockets.


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## EpiEMS (Apr 11, 2012)

White certainly makes blood exposure pretty obvious –:censored:and prevents, to some extent, personnel from tracking blood, fluids, etc. back home, if you make washer/dryers available at work.


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## Talonrazor (Apr 11, 2012)

I am the lead commander at the agency with my own office and desk but I still am hands-on enough where I am getting dirty. If the floor (our detention facility/clinic) is rioting, it is an all-hands on deck incident. No one wants to wear white at all here and our city FD/EMS guys don't even wear white.

As for name badges, management has stipulated that we do not have identification. Our population can range from drunk college students to multiple-times felons ODing on heroin. We have constant threats and violent from repeated offenders. It is standard policy not to identify. Because all of our patients are detainees, they have been taken into protective custody as allowed by law through our agency by medical personnel, they are not the standard "this is your care provider" relationship.

If they request through management, we provide employee identification. Otherwise, IDs are kept off of uniforms. We are currently moving to an agency-issued SmartID that will be clipped to the uniform (our security personnel have to have licensed security IDs showing) but these are small enough and on the belts to prevent detainees from realizing what they are.

I know a lot of staff have been wanting polos and I myself wear agency-identified polos with khaki tactical pants to city meetings and the like. The concern is the durability and security of the polo. I like thicker, heavier uniforms. Some of my field EMTs wear body armor and the vests are hidden a lot easier via uniform shirts and job shirts. The T-Shirts are allowed for in-facility wear as well as summer time out on the vans during the day.

Local law enforcement wears Blauer gear, which I wore during my days with Air Force Security Forces and civilian police. I like Blauer StreetGear but they are designed with LEO in mind. The firearm features, massive duty belt construction, etc are not that suitable for what we do.


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## Bullets (Apr 11, 2012)

So you are working in a detention center/prison? Where you have cross trained personnel? 

Sounds like you need ripstop canvas fabric with double knees and elbows, long sleeves preferable, safety toes, at least a composite toe

Basically BDUs...I recommend the 2 pocket blouse for your kind of work, it tucks in to pants, leaving less to get grabbed or caught

The NJ EMS Task Force works with this type of uniform. BDU pants, navy T shirts screen printed on the back, navy crew neck sweatshirts with screen printing on the back, and a 4 pocket BDU with a large applied back patch. They work in all types of environments, that require lots of physical activity. If you are looking for something more durable then ripstop canvas, then you are looking at true extrication/bunker gear


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## EpiEMS (Apr 11, 2012)

Hmm, maybe stuff from Crye Precision would do? Built in kneepads and elbow pads, and such.


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## Talonrazor (Apr 12, 2012)

Bullets said:


> So you are working in a detention center/prison? Where you have cross trained personnel?
> 
> Sounds like you need ripstop canvas fabric with double knees and elbows, long sleeves preferable, safety toes, at least a composite toe
> 
> ...



Basically, we are kinda like a homeless services police/ems task force. Kinda. We are tasked with enforcing Alaska Statue Title 47, which means we pick up individuals in public places that are intoxicated by alcohol, AMS due to drugs or generally AMS in public and is a danger to themselves or other people. This means we deal a lot with homeless people and due tons of wound care, monitoring chronically ill, etc. We can have in our detainment facility anywhere to a few dozen all the way to over sixty or seventy, all being monitored by one or two EMTs! 

Our personnel are either EMTs, Intake Specialists that are trained as either EMRs or Security Officers (they act as drivers and work the intake section) or Command Staff. We have vans that patrol the city and respond to agency assists as well as citizen calls. The vans are Chevy Expresses with prisoner transport packages.

Our boots are always recommended black zip-ups with safety toes but personnel have to buy their own. Same with gloves, which we recommend as kevlar or carbon-fiber assault gloves. I am kinda wanting us to move to the BDU style, with the 5.11 PDU outfit.


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## Veneficus (Apr 12, 2012)

Talonrazor said:


> Basically, we are kinda like a homeless services police/ems task force. Kinda. We are tasked with enforcing Alaska Statue Title 47, which means we pick up individuals in public places that are intoxicated by alcohol, AMS due to drugs or generally AMS in public and is a danger to themselves or other people. This means we deal a lot with homeless people and due tons of wound care, monitoring chronically ill, etc. We can have in our detainment facility anywhere to a few dozen all the way to over sixty or seventy, all being monitored by one or two EMTs!
> 
> Our personnel are either EMTs, Intake Specialists that are trained as either EMRs or Security Officers (they act as drivers and work the intake section) or Command Staff. We have vans that patrol the city and respond to agency assists as well as citizen calls. The vans are Chevy Expresses with prisoner transport packages.
> 
> Our boots are always recommended black zip-ups with safety toes but personnel have to buy their own. Same with gloves, which we recommend as kevlar or carbon-fiber assault gloves. I am kinda wanting us to move to the BDU style, with the 5.11 PDU outfit.



I am sorry, but could you explain this to me?

There is a law that creates a taskforce to go around and put homeless people in a containment facility?

I can't possibly have read that correctly?


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## Talonrazor (Apr 12, 2012)

Veneficus said:


> I am sorry, but could you explain this to me?
> 
> There is a law that creates a taskforce to go around and put homeless people in a containment facility?
> 
> I can't possibly have read that correctly?



No, the law says if you are intoxicated by alcohol or drugs you can be placed into protective custody by peace officers or emergency services patrol. It is a very standard "non-criminal behavior" patrol that picks up those who are dangerous to themselves or others. 

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/akstatutes/47/47.37./47.37.170. 

Read subsection B. That is where we get our detainment authority from.


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## d0nk3yk0n9 (Apr 12, 2012)

Veneficus said:


> I am sorry, but could you explain this to me?
> 
> There is a law that creates a taskforce to go around and put homeless people in a containment facility?
> 
> I can't possibly have read that correctly?



After having the same initial reaction as you, I went through the relevant sections of the laws and it looks like they are operating under a combination of Statute 47.37.230 and Statute 47.37.170 (parts of both quoted below). So they aren't specifically rounding up homeless people. They're rounding up drunks, most of whom happen to be homeless.



			
				Alaska Stat. 47.37.239 said:
			
		

> Cities and boroughs may establish emergency service patrols. An emergency service patrol consists of persons trained to give assistance in public places to persons who are intoxicated. Members of an emergency service patrol shall be capable of providing first aid in emergency situations and shall be capable of transporting intoxicated persons to their homes and to and from public treatment facilities.





			
				Alaska Stat. 47.37.170 said:
			
		

> A person who appears to be intoxicated in a public place and to be in need of help or a person who appears to be intoxicated in or upon licensed premises where intoxicating liquors are sold or consumed who refuses to leave upon being requested to leave by the owner, an employee, or a peace officer may be taken into protective custody and assisted by a peace officer or a member of the emergency service patrol to the person's home, an approved public treatment facility, an approved private treatment facility, or another appropriate health facility. If all of the preceding facilities, including the person's home, are determined to be unavailable, a person taken into protective custody and assisted under this subsection may be taken to a state or municipal detention facility in the area.


.


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## Veneficus (Apr 12, 2012)

d0nk3yk0n9 said:


> After having the same initial reaction as you, I went through the relevant sections of the laws and it looks like they are operating under a combination of Statute 47.37.230 and Statute 47.37.170 (parts of both quoted below). So they aren't specifically rounding up homeless people. They're rounding up drunks, most of whom happen to be homeless.
> 
> 
> 
> .



47.37.170 is a very fancy way to say "jail" for people under a number of circumstances.

How is that not rounding drunk homeless people to jail?


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## hippocratical (Apr 12, 2012)

Veneficus said:


> 47.37.170 is a very fancy way to say "jail" for people under a number of circumstances.
> 
> How is that not rounding drunk homeless people to jail?


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## rescue1 (Apr 12, 2012)

Veneficus said:


> 47.37.170 is a very fancy way to say "jail" for people under a number of circumstances.
> 
> How is that not rounding drunk homeless people to jail?



Well, to be fair, this is Alaska, where the possibility of drunk homeless people freezing to death at night is higher then any other state in the union. Assuming they're given food, medical care, a place to stay, and can leave in the morning I don't see an issue with it.

It's no different then EMS having to take a drunk to the ER (since they can't refuse care) just because a well meaning citizen called it in.


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## Veneficus (Apr 12, 2012)

rescue1 said:


> Well, to be fair, this is Alaska, where the possibility of drunk homeless people freezing to death at night is higher then any other state in the union. Assuming they're given food, medical care, a place to stay, *and can leave in the morning *I don't see an issue with it.



That is the key phrase...


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## Talonrazor (Apr 13, 2012)

Veneficus said:


> That is the key phrase...



If you read the statue, we have detainment authority for 12 hours. The key here is due to the reading of the law, we deal a lot with people taking Spice, Bath Salts, etc and wandering around. Pretty much any AMS patient in the city that can't give a valid address to go anywhere or that doesn't need direct hospital support we get called for. 

We are not jail. We are a step down from that level of detainment. We are located in the main city correctional facility but outside of Department of Corrections (which is actually a state agency that runs the city jail). In fact, most city jails HAVE what is called Non-Criminal Commitment which is a separate facility for non-criminal booking. Only monitoring people until they are sober/no longer AMS.


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## EpiEMS (Apr 13, 2012)

Talonrazor said:


> If you read the statue, we have detainment authority for 12 hours. The key here is due to the reading of the law, we deal a lot with people taking Spice, Bath Salts, etc and wandering around.



Quick Spice and Bath Salts query: what sort of AMS do you see? Agitated delirium? If so, I think that you may want to consider more padding on your uniforms, or at least the option to add more PPE.


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## Talonrazor (Apr 13, 2012)

EpiEMS said:


> Quick Spice and Bath Salts query: what sort of AMS do you see? Agitated delirium? If so, I think that you may want to consider more padding on your uniforms, or at least the option to add more PPE.



Excited delirium, yes. In fact, I just sent a guy to jail for a long time for assaulting me last night. Violence is ramping upwards in the city due to flooding of Spice and bath salts. 

Currently we have plastic trauma masks, which are kinda like paintball masks that you can don quickly to cover your whole face. They help with protecting against facial blows. I am currently looking at trying to secure us padded (and cheaper) riot gear for dealing with aggressive patients on the main population floor.


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## DarkStarr (Apr 13, 2012)

Already got'm... 5.11 pants, black steel toe boots, and a light grey tee with our logo on the left breast and "MEDIC" across the back.


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