# Unfair Punishment?



## splintercell990 (Jul 1, 2010)

Thoughts?

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/24102325/detail.html

"The harsh punishment of EMTs is unfair, especially because she believes the refresher courses they're required to take have no bearing on competence and knowledge."

-> Fraud is fraud. Just move on, do the time. Like they say, don't commit the crime, if you can't pay the price...or something along those lines. There'll be plenty of other EMT's who will step up and fill the voids left by those fired/suspended.


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## JPINFV (Jul 1, 2010)

While I agree that the refresher often has dubious value for providers who are currently active, that doesn't give me the right to ignore CME requirments.


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## LondonMedic (Jul 1, 2010)

Not unfair. Despite the prevailance of the 'crime'.

While EMS training may not be great, refresher training _is_ good and should improve patient care. Frankly, I'm appalled that this EMT thinks refresher courses are pointless because they just refresh knowledge and skills. I would question who she is to judge the usefulness or otherwise of these courses.


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## 8jimi8 (Jul 1, 2010)

My decision would have been to strip them of the certification (since they are technically no longer certified...) and possibly ban them for life.

If you are willing to lie about your education and training, i'm willing to bet you'll lie about much much more... drugs... patient care... documentation...

oh wait... they already lied about documentation.

Sorry. Too bad.  Go get a job a mcdonald's, i don't think you have to be certified for that.


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## TransportJockey (Jul 1, 2010)

As I posted on EMSresponders version of that article, I feel they should all be stripped permanantly of certification along with having to pay back all pay given for EMS duties since the falsification started. Oh, and every one of them, FF or EMT, be terminated


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## JPINFV (Jul 1, 2010)

LondonMedic said:


> Not unfair. Despite the prevailance of the 'crime'.
> 
> While EMS training may not be great, refresher training _is_ good and should improve patient care. Frankly, I'm appalled that this EMT thinks refresher courses are pointless because they just refresh knowledge and skills. I would question who she is to judge the usefulness or otherwise of these courses.



Have you been through a US style EMT refresher course? The one I've went to was run through a community college by a nurse that lacked any sort of understanding of anatomy and physiology (because, you know, putting a patient semi-fowlers and shock position is so going to have an affect on blood pressure). I still want those 24 hours of my life back. There's also a lot of "shoulds" in there and anyone involved with medicine should know that "should" doesn't always equate to "does."


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## EMTminer (Jul 2, 2010)

I agree refreshers aren't that great BUT they are a requirement and knowing that in order to have your license you have to take one suck it up and do it some things in refreshers are needed like going over some updated protocols so that is needed information and that can change patient care.


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## mycrofft (Jul 2, 2010)

*Cutting to the chase again*

They were caught lying. If it is a common and far reaching practice and others are not similarly punished then it is not fair, but may still be necessary.
Now, if it is widespread, the question of proportionate versus disproportionate is raised. (Where's EMSLAW when you need him/her?). That would be like punishing people in Florida for not wearing shoes, or wearing "flipflops" (zorri) to drive in. If it is the norm, or necessary due to conditions, then it is disproportionate to cut off their heads when a fine and a suspended sentence would do. "Hie thee hence and sin no further", or some such.

1. Punish the lying. The more egregious, the harder. The more senior and higher up the admin chain, the harder. Who knew what and when?

2. Investigate the claims that the refreshers are BS. If so, nail the system too. This can be a sign of a broken system. That means from the supervisors up to the schools and the EMS governing agency.

3. In any event, open up a disciplinary file on every person, and track em for five years, then shred it.

Pointless to ruin people if they are doing what has become accepted practice and no actual harm occurred.


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## Veneficus (Jul 2, 2010)

Perhaps I am an exception to the rule, perhaps not...

In all of my years in EMS, including some overseas trips as well as multiple states, I have never had a problem meeting the requirements for the state I was active in at any given time. 

Usually instead of a refresher course, i would attend certified continuing education,(con-ed) which in all 7 states I have ever participated in EMS in, was just as acceptable as a refresher course.

In all cases I always had more con-ed hours then was actually required and still managed to work and get paid what everyone else did. (usually with multiple jobs or lots and lots of overtime)

I am not suggesting it applies globally, but in my experience the only people who I knew to take a "refresher" course were people who neglected to make any effort for con-ed and needed a lifeline of a quick refresher course in order to renew their cert and keep their job. (Often about 1 month before it was set to expire)

In the refresher courses I have been involved teaching, most if not all attending, had no interest in being there to begin with. They constantly started the class with "Can we get out early?" or "That's not the way we do it where I work." when presented with new science or information. 

Infact I can recall only one person ever in a refresher that was eager to learn what was new and she was at the refresher because she had been working outside EMS and wanted to maintain the cert.

I can only suggest that if what I experienced is global, the problem is not the courses, the problem is the quality of providers attending them.

Of course it would only be fair to say that when the classes are taught by people who have no more education or knowledge than the people attending them, it is probably impossible to make the classes in any way meaningful.

Anyone who has been to college knows the consequences of academic dishonesty. Anyone who watches TV knows that fraud is a crime.

I have posted what I would have done if I was Ceasar. But I am not, and the governing authority handed down a sentence that they had every power to. 

Just like somebody who falsifies their research in academia or a conartist who defrauds somebody out of their savings, these people will lose what they had and will have a very difficult time getting back where they were. It is probably time they look for employment in other industries. 

I am sure that some people who should also have been punished were not, or less severely, I submit the entire oversight board needs to be replaced for allowing this to be so pervasive and being asleep at the wheel, but in the American justice system it may be obvious that those with prestige, power, money, and a good lawyer, do not meet the same level of justice as those without. It is not right or new, but people do have to live with it.


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## rescue99 (Jul 2, 2010)

EMTminer said:


> I agree refreshers aren't that great BUT they are a requirement and knowing that in order to have your license you have to take one suck it up and do it some things in refreshers are needed like going over some updated protocols so that is needed information and that can change patient care.



Refreshers are only as good or as bad as those who teach them. Frauds aren't  typically going to design anything worth while nor are they going to attend a worthwhile course. The 211 yahoo's need to hush, take thier punishment and be grateful thier next job isn't inside prision walls. The state does have the right to decided on their license but, the AG decides whether to prosecute.That part is out of the EMS divisons hands. Fraud is fraud...they cheated, took money and gave money illegally. What a shame, eh?


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## boingo (Jul 2, 2010)

I agree, hang 'em high, however, I do believe that OEMS needs some actual evidence to ruin someones career.  As far as I can tell, no one has had the option of challenging OEMS, if they say you are guilty, than that is that.  I guess that is the part I have issue with.


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## Thanach (Jul 4, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> Perhaps I am an exception to the rule, perhaps not...
> 
> In all of my years in EMS, including some overseas trips as well as multiple states, I have never had a problem meeting the requirements for the state I was active in at any given time.
> 
> Usually instead of a refresher course, i would attend certified continuing education,(con-ed) which in all 7 states I have ever participated in EMS in, was just as acceptable as a refresher course.



Here's the thing, Mass has some unique rules for recerting.

1. BLS - 24 hour refresher, and 28 hours of con-ed
2. ALS - 48 hour refresher, and 25 hours of con-ed
only 24 hours may be earned from M&M rounds.

Not too much, and it is over a 2 year period, but it can get expensive. If you're company doesn't provide them, and not too many do, refreshers run $200-$400, depending on what level and how late in the year you wait to do it. Con-ed isn't as bad, Mass accepts Con-Ed from mediced.com, so $50 gets you all the con-ed you need.
After all that, the state demands a $150 fee to renew. Now mind you, all this is due by Dec 31, as tickets expire April 1st. But what's sad is that sometimes even though you send everything in by Dec 31, you're new ticket won't show up until the end of March.


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## Cory (Jul 4, 2010)

I can't understand why this many "medical professionals" would feel as if they could just skip out on any form of training just because they don't like the course, and then whine about being suspended.


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## bstone (Jul 4, 2010)

> "The refresher course just repeats everything. We didn't put you at harm," Kim said.



Yes, the idea of the refresher is to repeat everything. That's the whole idea. Can't do the time? Then don't do the crime.


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## Veneficus (Jul 4, 2010)

Thanach said:


> Here's the thing, Mass has some unique rules for recerting.
> 
> 1. BLS - 24 hour refresher, and 28 hours of con-ed
> 2. ALS - 48 hour refresher, and 25 hours of con-ed
> ...



Sounds like Mass has many problems when it comes to EMS. Perhaps a modern revamp is in order?


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## Thanach (Jul 4, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> Sounds like Mass has many problems when it comes to EMS. Perhaps a modern revamp is in order?




I very much wish that they would, what's even sadder is the department has less than 10 employees


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## DrParasite (Jul 4, 2010)

Cory said:


> I can't understand why this many "medical professionals" would feel as if they could just skip out on any form of training just because they don't like the course, and then whine about being suspended.


BINGO!!! you don't like the rules, find a new job.  I agree many refreshers are a waste of time (I know mine was), but I also know that when I took my last one a month or two ago, there were quite a few people who wouldn't do a standing takedown, couldn't take a blood pressure, and didn't have a grasp on many of the basic skills.  So it can be beneficial, especially if you don't do this type of thing on a regular basis.

Con Ed is expensive?  oh well, spend the $300 and use it as a tax write off at the end of the year.  I work 4 jobs, and am just finished day 9 of 13 straight, and I find time to squeeze it in.

Everyone KNEW what the requirements were to maintain their certs.  they lied and committed fraud.  Quit making excuses for them.  they intentionally took a risk and got caught.  I have no sympathy for them at all.  They should all lose their jobs, lose their certs for 2-3 years (however long a Mass cert is for) and when they ask "how am I expected to feed my family" my response would be "well, if you hadn't tried to cheat, you wouldn't be in this position.  You only have yourself to blame, and now you need to deal with the consequences."


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## Thanach (Jul 4, 2010)

I'm not making excuses, nor do I feel sorry for them, they tried to do it the easy way instead of the right way and they it burned.

Personally, the only way it effects me is it means there is more OT available for me


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## Sledhaulingmedic (Jul 13, 2010)

boingo said:


> I agree, hang 'em high, however, I do believe that OEMS needs some actual evidence to ruin someones career.  As far as I can tell, no one has had the option of challenging OEMS, if they say you are guilty, than that is that.  I guess that is the part I have issue with.



Well, that's part of what's starting to come out.  Some of these cases are very different.  For example: http://Lexington EMTs fight suspensions.

While it's understandable that OEMS should be able to act quickly, to protect public safety, this can have some very serious consequences for providers when they get it wrong.  To top it all off, the providers can't even appeal the suspensions with OEMS, they have to go through DALA, which was backed up well over a year, last report I saw in print.

Without a doubt, some of these providers used some very poor judgment.  All of these cases are separate, and some of them are not as cut and dried asmost of the media reporting would like you to believe.


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