# Paramedics called coroner for man who survived gunshot



## VentMedic (Apr 22, 2009)

*Authorities: Paramedics called coroner for man who survived gunshot*

*Investigators said medical care was delayed as coroner’s officials were notified*
By Mary Manning
Published Tue, Apr 21, 2009 (3:14 p.m.)

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/apr/21/authorities-paramedics-called-coroner-man-who-surv/



> Two Clark County paramedics are under investigation after answering a call in eastern Las Vegas where they found a man with a self-inflicted gunshot wound and thought he was dead — so they didn't treat him immediately. Then the man was found to be alive but survived only two more days.
> 
> The incident happened Thursday at a mobile home park in the 5300 block of Twain Avenue in eastern Las Vegas, said Scott Allison, spokesman for the Clark County Fire Department. Paramedics arrived about 1:40 p.m. then examined the man, who had a single gunshot wound to his head and was stretched out on the ground outside a mobile home, Allison said.
> 
> Allison said an ambulance crew also arrived on scene and told the paramedics the man had a pulse and was breathing, but the paramedics had already called the Clark County Coroner's Office.


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## Stewart1990 (Apr 22, 2009)

That's crazy. I get that the guy probably look like he was through the wringer, and that the medics most likely wanted to preserve the scene, but this teaches us to cover our a**es. I mean who doesn't check for a pulse?


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## Aidey (Apr 22, 2009)

Under some of the protocols I've worked under if brain matter is visible it's considered an obvious sign of death that doesn't need a secondary method of confirmation. I don't think this is a great method since it is possible for the person to still be breathing and have a pulse if the brain stem is still intact and functioning.


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## VentMedic (Apr 22, 2009)

I'll say the same thing I did when the Paramedics in San Antonio did this.

One should not leave a person to die on the curb like some animal that is road kill. Head injured patients can live for days and their organs can go on to live for many years in the bodies of others.

The article said single gunshot to the head which does not necessarily mean the head was blown off for an obvious sign of death. That may mean one may have to go through the motions of confirming death by checking for vitals and an ECG. The ambulance crew checked so it is possible the head was still intact.

I've seen some serious head injured patients, including those with gray matter exposed, survive to make it to rehab for some surprising recoveries. Those that have been suicide attempts even get a new lease on life once they have been that close to death.


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## medic417 (Apr 22, 2009)

Usually the not work if gray matter protocol is if no pulse.  Sounds like this guy still had his electrical and mechanical functions working so he should have been treated and transported.  As Vent said at least organs were viable.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Apr 22, 2009)

Yes, but apparently they are not teaching ABC's in Clark County.  Or maybe they changed it to Airway, Brain Matter, Coroner...  MORONS  :sad:


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## rhan101277 (Apr 22, 2009)

Here you have to have asystole in at least two leads, no sign of breathing, no palpateable pulse.  If the family wants you to work them, then its best you do unless obvious signs of death or present, head blown off, dependent lividity, rigor mortis etc.

Of course the other obvious signs of death as well, if someone hasn't been dead for long better be safe than sorry.


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## boingo (Apr 23, 2009)

Give them a break, there might have been a working fire down the street.


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## CAOX3 (Apr 23, 2009)

Wait Im confused I thought education was supposed to remove incompetency. 

 I guess everyone doesnt benefit from an ALS assessment.:unsure: 

See here is a guy who would have benefited from a BLS response, they would have had to transport him.  

For people who cant recognise sarcasm, it is a joke.  So relax.

You would think one of them could of figured it out.  

I usually dont like to monday morning quarterback if these facts are true, then they deserve what is coming.


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## AJ Hidell (Apr 23, 2009)

CAOX3 said:


> Wait Im confused I thought education was supposed to remove incompetency.


Where in this article does it claim that these guys were educated?

For all we know, they were ten-week patch factory medics.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Apr 23, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> Where in this article does it claim that these guys were educated?
> 
> For all we know, they were ten-week patch factory medics.



MFRs (at least in my area) get a 56 hour course and they would know to run teh ABC's before calling the coroner!  In the end there is no defence for and emergency medical wrker not completely evaluating a patient before giving up on saving him.  I guess this is another example of how a Proper Patient Assessment is the most important skill for us to have in our arsenal.


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## Stewart1990 (Apr 23, 2009)

Couldn't have said it better myself.


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## STATION4 (Apr 23, 2009)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> MFRs (at least in my area) get a 56 hour course and they would know to run teh ABC's before calling the coroner!  In the end there is no defence for and emergency medical wrker not completely evaluating a patient before giving up on saving him.  I guess this is another example of how a Proper Patient Assessment is the most important skill for us to have in our arsenal.




good answer.I guess they need more training more than 56 hours need to take the hole class over .


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## AJ Hidell (Apr 23, 2009)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> In the end there is no defence for and emergency medical wrker not completely evaluating a patient before giving up on saving him.  I guess this is another example of how a Proper Patient Assessment is the most important skill for us to have in our arsenal.


Absolutely right on.  It is also another example of how people who are forced to do a job that they never really wanted to do in the first place consistently function at a lower level of competence than those who actually chose the vocation voluntarily.  Ever notice that it's always fire department medics in these stories?  Coincidence?  I think not.

Also, according to the story, it was not "paramedics", it was one paramedic and one EMT.

The so-called "ambulance crew" isn't even given the consideration of being identified by training level.  After all, they're not real heroes.  They're just ambulance drivers.  But at least they know how to take a pulse.  I'd sure like to know why neither of them had the guts to give the firemen the shove and transport the patient though.


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