# Prayer and EMS



## sojourner (Mar 5, 2010)

I am working on a term paper titled "The therapeutic value of prayer in the EMS system".  Needless to say even though many paramedics pray on their calls and for their patients, I believe it should include "with patients" asked for, etc. I am also attempting to reveal the overall refusal to accept this as a true therapeutic tool by the medical community in the "leave God out until WE do all the great stuff we have to offer" mentality. I realize it's a wide and deep topic, but as I am presenting this for paramedic class, maybe just maybe the following classes may find some encouragement to consider this dimension of our true responsibility to so many patients who may see is as the last or one of the last people they will see on this earth.

I will need to locate evidence worthy of a term paper, i.e. studies, etc. 

Any and all help welcome.


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## TransportJockey (Mar 5, 2010)

If my patient's family asks if they may pray while I am working on my patient, as long as they don't get in my way I'm ok with that, but I will not join in or lead them in it. 
I do have the mentality of 'let me do my job and leave imaginary friends out of it'


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## firecoins (Mar 5, 2010)

I don't pray with patients.  I am not hoping for supernatural interventions.  I am busy calling medical control for interventions I am likely to get.  If the patient wishes to pray, than their ABC are probably okay for the moment.

I am atheist.  I do not take part in religious ceremonies.


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## Smash (Mar 5, 2010)

Amen!

(Haha, see what I did there?  )


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## akflightmedic (Mar 5, 2010)

I do not pray or join in prayer either.

I need to focus on my job in order to save their behind if it is in that much danger. If it is not that severe which is most times, then they can do whatever they want as long as they do not touch me or try to involve me. When they do, I simply politely decline and endure their "look".

Besides, why fight or try to beg your way out of "the plan" simply because it is now Your turn to play your role.


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## CountryEMT-bGurl (Mar 5, 2010)

I agree with it! I pray everytime the tones drop! But then again, I also pray everytime I see a firetruck pass me, or hear sirens! I believe in prayer. And if I can multi-task enough to get the job at task done and pray as well, I will do so. I have no problem letting family pray next to the pt. while I am working. As long as it doesnt make for a hostile atmosphere for me to work in, then let them do whatever they need to do. That is part of their grieving process as well, to think they did everything that they could have done at the time. Cause if they can't pray, they have nothing else to do. Then they end up felling useless, and blaming themselves!

I say go for it!


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## reidnez (Mar 5, 2010)

Frankly, I think what you're describing is unprofessional. We aren't chaplains, we aren't there to provide a religious service. There is a difference between emotional support (which is appropriate) and spiritual support (beyond the scope of practice.)

If the family and the patient want to pray, by all means they should. If it calms the patient, great! All I'm saying is that it is _not_ the provider's place to participate.

If you're going to pray with one patient, shouldn't you pray with them all? What if they're of a different faith and their beliefs are at odds with your own? Would you pray with that person, though your church might condemn it? It hardly seems fair to discriminate--but religion by its nature is discriminatory, and that's why it has no place in public life. This holds _especially_ true if you work for a public agency, and wear a uniform which identifies you as an agent of government. Couldn't your praying with a patient, while you are in uniform and on the job, be interpreted as a state endorsement of religion? How would your service feel about that?

Sure, prayer has demonstrable physiological effects. So does meditation by an atheist. So does taking a placebo. That doesn't make any of those a valid medical intervention. Otherwise, we'd dispatch priests instead of EMT's.


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## wyoskibum (Mar 5, 2010)

*I seem to have that effect.......*

Seems like my patients really start praying once I walk in the door.......


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## Dominion (Mar 5, 2010)

I don't involve religion or politics in my day to day job.  If someone asks my opinion on either topic I politely decline.  Same with asking me to pray.  I once worked with a guy who would ask me to pray every morning before shift with him.  I would decline and he would loudly hold a prayer before starting the truck up and leaving the garage.  

The biggest concern here is do you advocate praying with people of all faiths or just the one you personally identify with.  What would you do if you showed up on a scene and a muslim asked you to pray with him or a pagan asked you to perform a prayer or quick ritual/blessing with them.  This is the problem with the plan as far as I see it.  As someone said religion is inherently discrimatory.  How do YOU plan to address that?  Realize that even in the deepest of the bible belt there are muslims, pagans, jewish, catholic, buddhist, etc.


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## Lifeguards For Life (Mar 5, 2010)

CountryEMT-bGurl said:


> . That is part of their grieving process as well, to think they did everything that they could have done at the time. Cause if they can't pray, they have nothing else to do. Then they end up felling useless, and blaming themselves!
> 
> I say go for it!



Just as you describe saying prayers outside of church, the family does not have to be bedside to pray.

In the extreme example, If a dying patient reaches out to you, and asks you to pray would you deny them?

Each time I am on shift with a certain battalion chief, he asks us if we don't mind joining him in grace when we sit down to dinner. I myself am not religious, and as such have no obligation to praying with patients of varying faiths. To all of you claiming atheism, is your religious preference (atheism), that strong to deny a patient that consultation?

Many patients, dying or not, are scared, and I see joining them in a prayer as little more than psychological first aid.

As a previous post described praying as "I do have the mentality of 'let me do my job and leave imaginary friends out of it'", while i would not talk to a psych patient's imaginar friend, I find no harm in repeating a series of meaningless words, with a patient acceptable practice if they find condolence in it.

There is a thread on this site, with a study detailing worse outcomes in patients that know they are being prayed for.


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## Nelg (Mar 5, 2010)

Myself, I don't think it works. If it helps the patient or family remained calm and it wouldn't hinder my work, go for it. 

I'm an Agnostic more then anything. I don't know what's out there, but for me personally, I think that what I do in the present dictates where my actions lead to, not some omnipresent being. 

All in all, if I had to lean on any religion, it would be more Buddhist. I don't see them starting wars because a person doesn't agree with there teachings, at least. (The religious teaching in itself, not an individual in the religion.)


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## TraprMike (Mar 5, 2010)

*but for me, therefore, the pt.*

I say a little prayer enroute to barn. something like, "Lord, help me made speedy, correct decisions". 
and away we go.


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## Lifeguards For Life (Mar 5, 2010)

attached is a link to the study mentioned.

http://emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=16332&highlight=prayer


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## sojourner (Mar 5, 2010)

*appreciation*

I greatly appreciate everyone's reply so far and hope to get much more.

I realize we do procedures and administer drugs that have no science to prove long term success yet we still use them and if there is a God and the extensive battery of testimonies claiming healing and intervention from first person accounts means anything, that seems more science that we have in some cases. We administer Adenosine in hopes to slap SVT back down, often to no avail. Prayer doesn't seem any more out there and seems to have as much or more affect.

Obviously there is no clear way to know how to properly apply it.  However I do know stress and anxiety attacks have been terminated via prayer and the arrhythmia associated with it. I'm just saying there's something there for those open to using it. They say there's no Atheists in fox holes... and that came from first hand observation in WW II.

Thanks again for any and every comment. It helps me get a feel.


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## Nelg (Mar 6, 2010)

I can't attest for anyone else, but from personal experience, I've only seen prayer calm someone down, but in terms of it helping out, never seen it do such. At least without human help. 

I don't know if there is or isn't an omnipresent being, and I won't until i die, but I like to say I'm more of a "want to control my own course" more.

And here I go steering the thread away from the original topic.


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## berkeman (Mar 6, 2010)

I'm not religious (but my ex-wife and kids are), so prayer's only component IMO in my work is for comfort between the Pt and their family/friends.  I'm certainly not going to stop what I'm doing to join in, but it's interesting about the mixed emotions I had on a recent call.

As background, an incident a few years ago had me treating a serious trauma F Pt after a roll-over MVA with ejection.  She was all torn up, but luckily had no obvious life threatening injuries.  Multiple Fx and minor bleeding, but no immediate presentations of internal bleeds or increased ICP.  But one of the bystanders made the idiotic comment, "Is there anything that you want us to tell your children?"  To which I replied pretty curtly, "She can tell them herself."  Stupid shellshocked bystander.

So on a recent call, my Pt was a 13 y/o F gymnast with a potentially serious C-spine injury from a fall in warm-up.  As I was working on her, and her mom and friends were keeping it together pretty well, the mom asked her if she wanted to pray.  I flashed back to the freeway incident, where the comment by the bystander was making the Pt stress out more than necessary, but this mom was mostly together, and I could sense that prayer was important to their family.  So I said nothing and kept working quietly while they prayed together.  It honestly felt kind of weird to have people praying over somebody that you're actively working on.....  Hope she was okay (we don't generally get to know the outcome after they ride off in the ambulance).


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## Melclin (Mar 6, 2010)

I am an atheist, so I obviously don't pray, and as a rule, I don't like it when people do. Especially in the medical setting, I find it vaguely offensive because people always seem so keen too chalk the wins up to god. 

That said, if a pts family wants to pray while ambos work, I'm not ganna stop them (what would be the point? I'm not there to push my atheological agenda), but I would certainly have no qualms about interrupting or stopping them for information or if they are interfering in anyway with things that will actually affect the pts outcome. 

That said if I'm sitting with a little old lady who's terminal and she wants me to hold her hand while she says a few hail marys before she shuffles off, then I'm not going to say no and hit her with a copy of the god delusion , so long as it doesn't interfere with any proper care, or take me out of my role too much (a six hour vigil is not going to happen). But, in regards to the OPs question, I see no benefit in it other than to avoid unnecessarily upsetting a dying person. And you are hardly going to be able to find empirical evidence to the contrary. 

There are studies into the so called power of prayer, and I'm sure someone here can provide a link, but honestly, if you believe that it works, why would you look for study? *A negative study will not change your mind (and be written off with an argument something along the lines of you can't use science to analyse god's will, god works in mysterious ways, etc), while a positive study will be shouted from the roof tops as evidence of god's influence in our lives and the power of prayer.* So why bother looking for studies? You're better off with bible references.


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## ZVNEMT (Mar 6, 2010)

I'm fairly religious, but i have a job to do and i think God will understand if i don't stop and pray with my pt... besides, I kinda think that theres a good chance that if God were to intervene in any way, it would probably be through the professionals working on the pt and not in some spectacular miracle with burning bushes and doves flying and water turning to wine. I believe acts of God to be generally subtle, unnoticed, and impossible to prove.


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## dg5887 (Mar 6, 2010)

Prayer doesn't always have to be a lifting up of words to God, you can also make actions your prayer. If one of us were to bring back a patient on the brink of death, would we be able to take credit for it? No. Our talents are not our own but are a gift from God. It would be wrong to take the gift God has given and claim it as our own. God has given some the gift of thought while others the gift of speech, some the gift of music while others that of art. We do not choose what we are talented at. God has called us to care for others, He put that desire into our hearts. He gave us the ability to learn and apply life saving measures along with the guts to do it. Not everyone is capable of doing this. If we accept this, continue to learn life saving skills to our utmost ability and apply it in order to give honor to God, then our hands become His hands and working on a patient becomes a living prayer. God love you!


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## Smash (Mar 6, 2010)

sojourner said:


> We administer Adenosine in hopes to slap SVT back down, often to no avail. Prayer doesn't seem any more out there and seems to have as much or more affect.


. I'm sorry, I don't like to be rude, but if this is truly what you think, then medicine is clearly not the career for you. We know exactly what percentage of SVT will revert (not 'slap down') and because of this we are not surprised at the small number we see who do not revert.  If you want to run a trial comparing adenosine to prayer in reverting svt, well good luck to you and do let us know the outcome. In the meantime, leave patient care to those who can make rational decisions and go provide pastoral care somewhere else. 



> They say there's no Atheists in fox holes... and that came from first hand observation in WW II.


If 'they' truly believed in an interventionist god and the power of intercessory prayer, then 'they' wouldn't need foxholes at all, would they?...


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## rockster10 (Mar 6, 2010)

I'd just like to say this.....I'm not a good source for the OP of this topic as I'm just entering school, but it's my belief in prayer that makes me want to enter EMS. I've prayed for guidance and this is where I've been led. I've seen the power of prayer within my family and in my own life.  It's a personal matter for every person, but more to the OP's topic, I have a hard time believing that no one here has seen anything change that was miraculous for patients due to prayer.  The negative tone of the thread FOR prayer would probably keep the people who have experienced the positive aspects of prayer in the field from posting.  

For those of us who DO believe in God and prayer I think God would say to the atheists in the foxholes from this quote:

"If 'they' truly believed in an interventionist god and the power of intercessory prayer, then 'they' wouldn't need foxholes at all, would they?..."

*Get your own dirt.*


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## akflightmedic (Mar 6, 2010)

sojourner said:


> They say there's no Atheists in fox holes... and that came from first hand observation in WW II.



Without delving into my personal back story, I will say this again and I will say it loud....

"There are INDEED atheists in the foxhole"...been there, done that and amazingly enough, my beliefs did not change or invent a god on the spot to save my ***.

This is so egotistical for a group to think all will revert to their belief system simply because a time of need in their opinion has arisen. This is not how it works with atheists or people who are comfortable with their life. 

As for your quote, who reported this first hand? What kind of documentation and study was performed while in the foxholes? What was the story on those who "converted"? Again, it is massive propaganda with a catchy phrase...

If anything, atheists are more appreciative, respectful and concerned with THIS life. This is it for us, so we have to make the best of it, we have to enjoy it, and we have to treat it well. We do all of these things because it is the right thing to do. Yes folks, morality is independent of religion and is quite successful without it. We do not need threats of damnation or promises of blissful eternity to do the right thing. We do it because it simply is...


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## dg5887 (Mar 6, 2010)

akflightmedic,

If atheists are more "appreciative" of "THIS life" then who are they appreciative to for "THIS life" and if this is the only life there is why do you say "THIS" life?

Why do atheists always try to debate that there is no God? We never hear of people going around and trying to debate that there is no such thing as unicorns or fairies, because if we did they would be called crazy. Why is it not that way with atheists? It is because God is real. Could there be atheism without something to atheate? 

All of creation points to that of a creator. If one were to be walking in the desert and come upon a mansion fully equiped with electricity would they not believe someone built that mansion and supplied the electricity? How much more complicated is the human body than a house? Could it be that we just by chance came about? Impossible.


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## akflightmedic (Mar 6, 2010)

dg5887 said:


> akflightmedic,
> 
> If atheists are more "appreciative" of "THIS life" then who are they appreciative to for "THIS life" and if this is the only life there is why do you say "THIS" life?
> 
> ...



I wondered how long before the twist the word game would begin...

This discussion was open for ALL views, whichever they are. It was for people to express their beliefs, views or non beliefs whether it agrees with yours or not.

Quite honestly, most atheists do NOT debate there is no god as we typically have ZERO need to bring up the subject. It simply does not occur in routine conversation UNTIL someone of a certain belief brings it up. At that point, it is fair discussion topic.

Review the threads and tell me how many start off with "There is no god!" You will find none...now review and see how many start off with "there is" or make an attempt to bring it up. I think you will see where the scales tip my friend.

Those of non-belief have every right to express themselves as politely or as defensively as those which do. However what you will find is those of non-belief typically do not go the militant route nor do they inflict harm or go to war over non-beliefs. I mean seriously, the logic of fighting over nothing??  

The above example was extreme but think of all the lesser extremes. There is simply no need for us to thank someone for when things go right and chalk it up to a master plan of which we can't conceive when things go wrong. We have personal responsibility. We accept the actions of our actions for what they are and then deal with it.

As for my words which you tried so pathetically to twist, I am saying this life is it. THIS meaning the one we are experiencing...how else do I express it? I am not hinting that there is another...I am saying at this very moment...THIS life. And since THIS life is it, then we appreciate it, we enjoy it, we make it the best it is for ourselves and those around us as there are no second chances or do overs.

We appreciate all the natural beauty of it, really soak it in. Earth is a wonderful place to be most days but if you are so focused on what to do to get to the "after life" you just may miss it or wake up one day with it all gone. 

I know it is hard for those of "the faith" to realize we of no belief can be just as loving and caring with no rewards being promised in the eternal hereafter. We have loving family units, we bond, we nurture...pretty darn amazing isn't it? We are normal people who do all the same things you do only we do not play what we determine to be fantasy games with our lives.

In closing, remember this...we were ALL born atheists.


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## medic417 (Mar 6, 2010)

I am very religious.  I do not push my religious views on people and I do not participate in their religious activity.  For many religious people they feel calm and less afraid when they are praying, so why interfere with them praying?  Another point is if they are praying for intervention to whatever God or object they believe in you could say w/o joining in that perhaps my hands are the answer to your prayer and go on. 

 I have known atheist that insisted on having their mp3 player and when at first we could not locate it they started having more difficulty but once family found it and they were able to listen to the music they relaxed and treatment was easier to accomplish.  Should I have denied them their music like some have suggested denying the patient prayer?  The patient is calmer and whether you agree or not they played a part in their own recovery.  

Another fact is the patient has the legal right in the USA to determine what if any treatment they want.  If their prayer delays your care they still have the right to choose that delay and all you can do is document it.  

As to the study that says outcomes for patients when praying turned out worse there have also been studies that have stated improved outcomes.  Studies can be slanted anyway the author wants by excluding certain items and including others.  There have been studies that say music helps and yet others that say it hinders recovery.  Just because we find one that supports our opinion does not make it the final answer.


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## akflightmedic (Mar 6, 2010)

I agree and at no point did I say I would not "allow" it.

They can do whatever they want as long as it does not involve me. It is quite presumptuous for one to assume because they are one way, then everyone is...especially when it comes to matters of religion.

If they wish to delay care to pray, then by all means go for it after I advise no time delay is warranted and the potential effects of such delay. If time is not an issue, then again, have at it and within a reasonable amount of time I will be asking if you still need my services.

I do long for the day when "miraculous" cancer cures are trumped by limb regrowth after someone experiences a traumatic amputation...


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## CAOX3 (Mar 6, 2010)

rockster10 said:


> I'd just like to say this.....I'm not a good source for the OP of this topic as I'm just entering school, but it's my belief in prayer that makes me want to enter EMS. I've prayed for guidance and this is where I've been led. I've seen the power of prayer within my family and in my own life.  It's a personal matter for every person, but more to the OP's topic, I have a hard time believing that no one here has seen anything change that was miraculous for patients due to prayer.  The negative tone of the thread FOR prayer would probably keep the people who have experienced the positive aspects of prayer in the field from posting.
> 
> For those of us who DO believe in God and prayer I think God would say to the atheists in the foxholes from this quote:
> 
> ...



Well your on the right track, you have taken the vow of poverty. 

Listen, I have witnessed things that if I didn't see with my own two eyes I would have never believed, things you don't mention because no ones going to believe you and plenty of things that have no explanation.

I'm not sure who's running the show, but Id say he is looking out for some people.

If they want to pray, they pray, if they want to chant, they chant and if they want to sing, they sing.  If they believe its beneficial to their medical outcome who the helll are we to say it isn't.  

I can do my job without trampling all over the beliefs of the patient and their family.  Im not joining in but I wont deter you.


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## rescue99 (Mar 6, 2010)

akflightmedic said:


> I agree and at no point did I say I would not "allow" it.
> 
> They can do whatever they want as long as it does not involve me. It is quite presumptuous for one to assume because they are one way, then everyone is...especially when it comes to matters of religion.
> 
> ...



We do not interfere with normal religious prayer even during serious calls. It is appropriate to suggest we work and family prays but, if they ask for a moment for prayer it is expected that we make every attempt to do so. What one person's belief may be or lack therof, is his/her business. I will not tell a nun she can't have a breif moment to pray for her sister let alone a man for his wife. Yes, I've been in the field long enough to have been asked to baptize a few. Religion is a protected right in which I am obligated to abide by as long as it is within the laws of our country. This country was founded on christian beliefs and those beliefs are protected by the consititution.


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## reidnez (Mar 6, 2010)

rescue99 said:


> We do not interfere with normal religious prayer even during serious calls. It is appropriate to suggest we work and family prays but, if they ask for a moment for prayer it is expected that we make every attempt to do so. What one person's belief may be or lack therof, is his/her business. I will not tell a nun she can't have a breif moment to pray for her sister let alone a man for his wife. Yes, I've been in the field long enough to have been asked to baptize a few. Religion is a protected right in which I am obligated to abide by as long as it is within the laws of our country. This country was founded on christian beliefs and those beliefs are protected by the consititution.



Nobody in this thread has ever suggested that the patient or the family be denied the opportunity to pray. Of course I would allow someone to pray. The only question is whether the EMT should _actively participate._

Where do people get this "Christian Nation" nonsense? The founders protected the practice of religion, yes, but they were also careful to protect government _from_ religion. If you want to know how the founders really felt about religion, research some of the letters they wrote to each other and to their friends, rather than their public speech. The fact is, no matter what they professed publicly about religion, these men were privately fearful of religion when it came to governance and public life. I'll throw a few quotes at you for starters.

"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." --- Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814"

"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State." --- Thomas Jefferson to S. Kercheval, 1810 

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" --- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816 

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." --- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785 

And, of course, the most important of all: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." The first part of that statement is just as important as the second.


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## Veneficus (Mar 6, 2010)

reidnez said:


> Nobody in this thread has ever suggested that the patient or the family be denied the opportunity to pray. Of course I would allow someone to pray. The only question is whether the EMT should _actively participate._
> 
> Where do people get this "Christian Nation" nonsense? The founders protected the practice of religion, yes, but they were also careful to protect government _from_ religion. If you want to know how the founders really felt about religion, research some of the letters they wrote to each other and to their friends, rather than their public speech. The fact is, no matter what they professed publicly about religion, these men were privately fearful of religion when it came to governance and public life. I'll throw a few quotes at you for starters.
> 
> ...



Bravo!!!


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## rescue99 (Mar 6, 2010)

reidnez said:


> Nobody in this thread has ever suggested that the patient or the family be denied the opportunity to pray. Of course I would allow someone to pray. The only question is whether the EMT should _actively participate._
> 
> Where do people get this "Christian Nation" nonsense? The founders protected the practice of religion, yes, but they were also careful to protect government _from_ religion. If you want to know how the founders really felt about religion, research some of the letters they wrote to each other and to their friends, rather than their public speech. The fact is, no matter what they professed publicly about religion, these men were privately fearful of religion when it came to governance and public life. I'll throw a few quotes at you for starters.
> 
> ...



Those seeking freedom to worship are as important as those whom wish to have no religious beliefs at all. I find non-believers to be sometimes pushy, sometimes angry and unconvincing but, it is their right to express and mine to ignore. It's even an interesting topic at times when the participants are interesting in their views. Bottom line...it is not necessary to appreciate someone else's non-belief in order to respect his/her right to be so.


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## Nelg (Mar 6, 2010)

Having grown up in the Bible Belt, I have found that most people of faith try to push there beliefs on others constantly. "You're Methodist? You're WRONG! Baptist is the way to go!"

At an early age, having read the bible I had already started finding contradictions and seeing a lot of what people hold on to as "real" sounded just as "real" as a man in a red coat, long, white beard and having a jolly big belly whipping around the world with a bag of goodies for all the "good" little boys and girls, sneaking down chimneys that range from small to large. 

In a previous reply, I stated I was Agnostic, but that in itself is just a label. I like to say I'm just not religious. If I wanted to say I was anything, though, it would be Satanic (google it, people, it's not all what you think), and even then that's pushing it.

If anything, I like the principles of Buddhism, but I feel that, as a person and a future EMS personal, that I should live the best I can, period. 

Do I have to be a Church goer for that? Not at all! Just don't say that in the bible belt, they still want a good lynching every now and then.


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## firetender (Mar 6, 2010)

dg5887 said:


> akflightmedic,
> Could there be atheism without something to atheate?



This was worth slogging through the whole thread to find. Case closed!

But, you know, there are forces out there that we are yet to understand. Look in front of you. Everything man made you see was once someone's thought. Most everything started as something many believed couldn't be done. It didn't matter that 1,000,000 people swore it couldn't be done, one guy/gal made it happen; and the only difference? He/she believed it. 

And why not thoughts that take on lives of their own? A prayer is a thought directed for a purpose. If you've ever lived with indigenous people, on the land they've occupied for centuries, you will see that slightly different "natural" forces are in effect; forces THEY believe in and still, they are alive enough so that even WE can witness them!

My point? All of us, Atheist or Otherwise live in a world consisting of forces of which we know and understand but a micron.


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## firetender (Mar 6, 2010)

dg5887 said:


> akflightmedic,
> *Could there be atheism without something to atheate?*



This was worth slogging through the whole thread to find. Case closed!

But, you know, there are forces out there that we are yet to understand. Look in front of you. Everything wo/man made you see was once someone's thought. Most everything started as something many believed couldn't be done. It didn't matter that 1,000,000 people swore it couldn't be done, one guy/gal made it happen; and the only difference? He/she believed it. 

And why not thoughts that take on lives of their own? A prayer is a thought directed for a purpose. If you've ever lived with indigenous people, on the land they've occupied for centuries, you will see that slightly different "natural" forces are in effect; forces THEY believe in and still, they are alive enough so that even WE can witness them!

My point? All of us, Atheist or Otherwise live in a world consisting of forces of which we know and understand but a micron. We wouldn't do anything if we didn't believe in something.


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## sojourner (Mar 6, 2010)

*Thank you*

I continue to enjoy the comments and have learned quite a bit. I haven't seen much from the point-of-view I was hoping for, but am thankful all the same.  My medical research is showing prayer and healing much more prevalent and relevant in the rest of the medical "industry" than in EMS so far. I am not sure how well I communicated in the beginning of the thread, but my purpose would be toward those predisposed to prayer to not forget nor ignore it in practice/calls. I certainly do not mean stop procedures to call a "prayer meeting" nor stop any scope responsibility, but to acknowledge God and ask for direction in care. We make decisions out there and we are also misdirected and miss conditions we might not be looking for. For those of us who recognize God calls us to look to Him for what we don't know, well please consider it more.

Prayer is not a fix-it nor is it is a tool we control. It's not magic that once we learn the right words to "conjure the spell", we become great prayer practitioners. Prayer is acknowledging God and giving Him the credit for good things and asking for His help in bad things. We're just humans, He's God.  I'm a dad and my kids don't get everything just because they ask. If they don't ask for help though, it's pretty hard for me to help much, even though I could be very helpful at times.  Someone's life is a pretty big thing not to ask help for.

Thanks again for all the comments. Keep them coming.


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## Melclin (Mar 6, 2010)

dg5887 said:


> Why do atheists always try to debate that there is no God? We never hear of people going around and trying to debate that there is no such thing as unicorns or fairies, because if we did they would be called crazy. Why is it not that way with atheists? It is because God is real. Could there be atheism without something to atheate?
> 
> All of creation points to that of a creator. If one were to be walking in the desert and come upon a mansion fully equiped with electricity would they not believe someone built that mansion and supplied the electricity? How much more complicated is the human body than a house? Could it be that we just by chance came about? Impossible.



Wow....just ...wow.

Your second point is deeply flawed but I haven't the energy the get into that debate. Google it if you're interested in knowing why that analogy is not at all accurate, I think often the specific example is about a tornado, a junk yard and the spontaneous assembly of a 747.

Your first point is just absurd. Firstly, the reason there are no fairy atheists is because there are no fairy _theists_ (although the idea of god is not that far off). If there were people who seriously believed in fairies, there would be people who would be arguing against it. Secondly, "Could there be atheism without something to atheate?". Really? So if I was to say, argue that santa was not real, by your logic, that would mean there must be a santa? Surely u see how that's wrong. 

Other than pointing out that obvious flaw in logic, I have no particular interest in having a atheists vs theists argument on the internet, been there done that. If I want to waste my time and end up with a head ache, I'll bash my head against a brick wall. Its cheaper than internet access.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Mar 7, 2010)

wyoskibum said:


> Seems like my patients really start praying once I walk in the door.......



You take yours to heaven, Ill take mine to hell.


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## TraprMike (Mar 7, 2010)




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## Nelg (Mar 7, 2010)

TraprMike said:


>





I've got to admit, that has creepy, cute and awesome all rolled up into one. 

That dog has him tricked by the leash!


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## EMTinNEPA (Mar 8, 2010)

"How come God gets credit whenever something good happens? Where was he when her heart stopped?"


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## medic417 (Mar 8, 2010)

EMTinNEPA said:


> "How come God gets credit whenever something good happens? Where was he when her heart stopped?"



Sadly many then blame God by wrongly saying God needed another angel.  People that claim to Worship God really need to read what is in the bible.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Mar 8, 2010)

Personaly I think the idea of a big bearded guy up in the sky running things is kind of silly. Sort of like Santa Clause. 

But thats just me... 

If a patient or the family wants to pray or have me join in, I could care less what religious preference they are, its fine by me. Its not my thing but it does not offend me and I could see how it could help there mental health during the crisis. So long as it does not interfere with patient care.

I applied to an ambulance agency once which required praying! It was ran by adventist.


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## firecoins (Mar 8, 2010)

dg5887 said:


> Why do atheists always try to debate that there is no God? We never hear of people going around and trying to debate that there is no such thing as unicorns or fairies, because if we did they would be called crazy. Why is it not that way with atheists? It is because God is real. Could there be atheism without something to atheate?


Nobody tells me I am going to hell because I don't believe in fairies. Christianity and Islam both activly recruit people into their religions. Jews don't really recruit but they will take any conversions.  

I grew up in the Jewish faith. I always found the concept of a Chrisitan nation to be offensive. The first line of the first amendement explicitly says the government will not have an official religion.  

People are free to pray on their own in my ambulance.  I do not baptize people into a religion. I do not bring up religion or atheism as its unprofessional.


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## rjw225 (Mar 10, 2010)

*If Jesus is a Paramedic, I'll Sign a Refusal*

If prayer was a legitimate intervention, why would the faithful need to call EMS in the first place? :glare:


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## sojourner (Mar 10, 2010)

*Good and valid point*

Hence the term "growing in faith".  If you really want to see someone who took years to grasp it, Google "John G Lake".


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## firetender (Mar 11, 2010)

It is not a matter of if we die. It is only a matter of when. The inevitability of death and the very, very high probability that in 100 years, no one will remember we were even alive means that we must have faith that there is something worth living for now, otherwise, no, I don't think we'd do it.

To live is an act of faith.


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## Veneficus (Mar 11, 2010)

*religion is not really my thing*



rjw225 said:


> If prayer was a legitimate intervention, why would the faithful need to call EMS in the first place? :glare:



But I think you have to take into consideration how it helps. 

If you look at prayer as basically "calling the divine cell phone" and asking for a favor, the results are not going to be immediate intervention or reversal of the situation. 

But before looking at how it helps look at what it is. In many Eastern religions and several philosophies both Eastern and Western, a person has the ability to influence their perception. When things go wrong, it is because the person was out of sync. If things go right it was because the person was in sync. (with what depends on the religion/philosophy) but it is largely intrisnsic. When you have a positive outlook on something, be it a job, a relationship, whatever, your results are often more favorable. 

Prayer as extrinsic religions (Cristianity, Islam, etc) use it is a method of instilling a positive perspective. (similar to meditation) It is the ritual or the recitation of something that instills a positive outlook. Sort of lke a mental security blanket. But that security is no different from its intrinsic counter parts. Basically it is 2 different ways to achieve the same thing. 

I choose intrinisc, some choose extrinsic, it is not a choice of right or wrong. 

By understanding exactly what prayer or meditation or whatever (like stubborn will to live or esprit de corps) else is, it is like understanding chemistry before pharmacology. It has an influence. However, even if you don't understand chemistry, it doesn't mean that pharm doesn't work. 

That is why you see a lot of "proof positive" results in extrinsic religion. The "i prayed and it got better." They have no idea why, only that the medicine they chose helped the affliction. We don't educate every patient on the pharm we use everyday. (or any day for that matter) All they know is they took the medicine and it helped or didn't. Just like prayer, meditation, sacrificing a goat, or any number of rituals of different ideology. 

If praying is what they need to help themselves get better, why would anyone want to take that from a person? I always find it beneficial when a patient is trying to help themselves. (though sometimes it requires a little guidance on their pham therapy  ) 

When it comes to deep topics, when does life begin? What happens when we die? I don't know, I am cool with not knowing. I'll check it out when I get there. Some people are deathly terrified of what they don't know. Their religion allays their anxiety or insignificance.

Certainly some take religion too far. Which is why it is called extremism. But such extremism takes forms other than religion. Nationality for example. Believing you are the most superior nation is no different from believing you have the most superior religion. 

Sometimes society is built on unfounded beliefs. Like a male and a female each contribute 50% of their offspring. Laws are based on it. The science points otherwise, but if we go strictly by that, it would lead to a collapse of culture and society. Both of which are essential for the continuation of mankind. 

Whether you are for religion/philosophy or against it. How do you prove you are right? What if you are wrong?


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## RescueYou (Mar 11, 2010)

wyoskibum said:


> Seems like my patients really start praying once I walk in the door.......



hahahaha agreed


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## FFMedic75 (Mar 18, 2010)

Regardless of what your personal beliefs are, part of what we do is comfort patients and families.  In some cases it is the most important thing we do.  Would I delay treatment to pray with someone, no, but if we have done all we can medically then we are there to take care of the family.  So sure regardless of my beliefs I would pray with a family or a patient, and yes that includes doing my best for followers of any religion, be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc.


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## usafmedic45 (Mar 19, 2010)

jtpaintball70 said:


> If my patient's family asks if they may pray while I am working on my patient, as long as they don't get in my way I'm ok with that, but I will not join in or lead them in it.
> I do have the mentality of 'let me do my job and leave imaginary friends out of it'


+1.  There is no _credible_ evidence it helps, but what is it going to hurt so long as it doesn't get in the way of real interventions?


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## sojourner (Apr 7, 2010)

*EMS out of touch with patient*

Throughout my research I found studies repeating the same theme, patients are concerned about religious things during emergent care. They actually want much more interaction about it at that time. One such study is sited below
Take it how you want and do with it what you will, but if you are willing to give sympathetic touch and words, you should also consider prayer. If you are uncomfortable with it, well tubing is not a comfortable thing at times, but you do that.  Google Dr. Chauncey Crandell and see what a cardiologist does about and with prayer.  Lastly my research identified positive therapeutic results from the placebo effect, which at the very least prayer can be considered.  If you are going to stop and pray instead of cardiovert, I see the conflict, but praying while you cardiovert isn't going to kill the patient nor slow down care, but rather bring placebo or divine therapeutic results. Neither can hurt.

http://pdm.medicine.wisc.edu/Volume_19/issue_4/jang.pdf

I was amazed how much study has been devoted to this topic, also noting more and more medical schools are adding the topic of spirituality in medicine to their lists of offerings.


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## rjw225 (Apr 7, 2010)

EMS is a *MEDICAL* service, not a spiritual service.  

I'm sure patients would like 600 thread-count Egyptian cotton stretcher sheets and ice-cream cones during transport, but like religion, these frivolities have absolutely no place in an emergent medical environment.

The assumption is always that the spiritual advice/prayers made available in such situations would be compatible with the spiritual beliefs held by the patient; the existence of hundreds of distinct and mutually exclusive sects within just American Christianity precludes the ability of any even private ambulance company to offer religious services without opening up a Pandora's box of justified litigation.


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 7, 2010)

> I was amazed how much study has been devoted to this topic, also noting more and more medical schools are adding the topic of spirituality in medicine to their lists of offerings.



That doesn't mean it's a valid research topic.  No evidence has been found to support it. Just because special interest groups have convinced (badgered) medical schools and such into including training on it, does not mean it's progress or anything else.  It simply means the administrations caved in to special interest groups just as they did with the need for "sensitivity training" and all the other feel good BS that medical schools have been cramming into their curriculums, usually to get funding from individuals or organizations contingent on advancing the beliefs of that person or persons. It amuses me how stupid otherwise really intelligent folks can become when you get into the realm of religion, especially when money gets thrown into the mix.  



> but if you are willing to give sympathetic touch and words, you should also consider prayer.


:roll:  Yeah, you go right ahead with that one....I'll be sticking to things that actually work.  The sympathetic touch and words option is simply what I have to do to keep my job...you know...."customer service" and all that BS.


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## sojourner (Apr 7, 2010)

*Evidence and medical*

Yes there is evidence and study on the topic and there are MEDICAL miracles... we talk about but give the credit to NOTHING and/or NO ONE. Could there be a bias... one that is against the patient?

We do non-medical things for the patient we deem medical.


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## rjw225 (Apr 7, 2010)

sojourner said:


> Yes there is evidence and study on the topic and there are MEDICAL miracles... we talk about but give the credit to NOTHING and/or NO ONE. Could there be a bias... one that is against the patient?
> 
> We do non-medical things for the patient we deem medical.



There are no medical "miracles"…there are as-yet unexplained physiological anomalies that are only very rarely beneficial to the patient's outcome.

You can't praise a deity for the unexpectedly positive events without likewise attributing blame for the exponentially more frequent negative outcomes.


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## Veneficus (Apr 7, 2010)

Is comforting a patient really wrong?

Is it not an aspect of helping a patient?


Like I said, I don't really get into religion, but there are times when no "medical" intervention as we know it is going to help any. It can be at the end of life, or to stop a new parent from passing out while you sew the kid's lac. 

Is the alternative to do nothing?

making a patient feel at ease is the mark of a good provider no matter what title or role they have. If you need to make a scientific argument, look at the negative effects of a stress response.

I like to work smarter and not harder. If a patient thinks me bowing my head or saying "amen" will mke them feel better, I don't have to spend any energy or time trying to figure out a way to make them "feel" better. It doesn't mean their pathology goes away. Most people I think would rather feel good then be snowed to th point they feel nothing at all.

I have seen many people at the end of life who were beyond medical aid. The last interactions and smiles can do far more than benzos and opioids for both the sick and the survivors. If prayer helps, why deny them?

Even on the patients who will potentially recover or survive, is the effect of will or belief in the ability to carry on somehow diminished if it comes from an external belief as opposed to an internal?


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## emt835 (Apr 7, 2010)

In an emergency situation we have enough to focus on and i remeber being trrainied to lead prayers


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## akflightmedic (Apr 7, 2010)

sojourner said:


> but praying while you cardiovert isn't going to kill the patient nor slow down care, but rather bring placebo or divine therapeutic results. Neither can hurt.



Since someone already alluded to counting the hits and ignoring the misses...I will also point out the above quoted section.

This is one of my complaints with the religious.

You are asking for divine intervention because you now have an illness or injury. Why did you have to get it in the first place? Oh wait, I know, to test your faith because not only is the god jealous but he is insecure. He has to keep testing to make sure you stay true.

And when the intervention does not help, oh well it was his will, he has a plan. When something "miraculous" occurs it is WOW see he listens and now we have a new path, our faith held true.

Pretty self centered to have those thoughts as well when compared to the world population in general or even only the christian population.

Good thing we do not do this to our own children here in the real world. Pretty sadistic to continuously test your child's love...


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## Veneficus (Apr 7, 2010)

akflightmedic said:


> not only is the god jealous but he is insecure..



That is one of the best quotes ever.


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## rjw225 (Apr 7, 2010)

In the relatively brief interaction between EMS personnel and patients, kindness and compassion certainly go a long way to make the patient feel more at ease.

Crossing the threshold from expressions of empathy and compassion into the infinitely complex world of religion and religious incompatibility is not something I would risk as a medical professional and not something I would appreciate as a patient.

Most religions are mutually exclusive, with complicated interpretations of human worth, fallibility, and justice.  Would you want a Muslim to offer prayers to Allah if you were a Pentecostal adherent?  What if you were a patient of faith and your EMT was atheist?  Would you want to hear his/her religious views then?

The dangerous extension of allowing religious intrusion into medical professions is the potential for selective application of one's medical knowledge on the basis of religious criteria; i.e. the potential unwillingness of an EMT to perform his/her duty on a patient who is part of any group with whom the EMT's religion disagrees or actively condemns.  This is taking shape in the form of "conscience clauses" advocated by religious extremists who assume that when their MVA happens, the responding medic will be a member of their congregation.  If they happen to be from a "rival" denomination/sect, the patient could be fatally screwed.  All because religion was injected where it never belonged in the first place.


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## akflightmedic (Apr 7, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> That is one of the best quotes ever.



Thanks but I can only claim the insecure part, it was the Bible which told me he was a jealous god...his words. For one to be a jealous god, indicates to me that there must be other gods...no?


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## emt835 (Apr 7, 2010)

screwed up my reply.  I was never trained to give prayers.  i was trainied to provide medical care and emotional support


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## Veneficus (Apr 7, 2010)

rjw225 said:


> Crossing the threshold from expressions of empathy and compassion into the infinitely complex world of religion and religious incompatibility is not something I would risk as a medical professional and not something I would appreciate as a patient.



I think we are not talking about the same thing. I do not offer to pray for patients, or unilaterally decide what may help. Nor do I randomly just try different things until one actually works. 

But if the patient asks me to pray with them, then I just follow their lead. If they ask for a priest (minister, shamen, Rabbi, or whatever) I make every effort to provide what they request. 

If they ask me to take part in some basic ritual like leaving the "sick rag" on their head or bowing my head or a moment of silence, if it doesn't interefere with actual intervention then I make every effort to honor their request.



rjw225 said:


> What if you were a patient of faith and your EMT was atheist?  Would you want to hear his/her religious views then?



Understanding the true nature of religion, I really don't care what people believe or don't. 

I sat in a class my first year of undergrad called "mysteries of evil." Of the required reading was a satanic publication. I wondered the significance of it. The prof later lectured that all Christians are Satanists and vice versa. You cannot have a protagonist without an antagonist. So I ask: Can you have an athiest without a religion to be against?




rjw225 said:


> The dangerous extension of allowing religious intrusion into medical professions is the potential for selective application of one's medical knowledge on the basis of religious criteria; i.e. the potential unwillingness of an EMT to perform his/her duty on a patient who is part of any group with whom the EMT's religion disagrees or actively condemns.



Rest assured, nobody will ever accuse me of that. I am not biased by extreinsic beliefs, and I have learned the hard way about the conflicts of absolute morality. 

But there are healthcare institutions (they probably try to reconsecrate the grounds after I walk on it) who can and do discriminate in their medical care. Probably not a successful trip to Show up at "St. Mary's" looking for an abortion. Nor at a Jehova's Witness facility looking for a massive blood transfusion. How about a Muslim hospital that only permit same sex doctors to see a patient? You could literally die "with your dignity" on the table waiting?




rjw225 said:


> This is taking shape in the form of "conscience clauses" advocated by religious extremists who assume that when their MVA happens, the responding medic will be a member of their congregation.  If they happen to be from a "rival" denomination/sect, the patient could be fatally screwed.  All because religion was injected where it never belonged in the first place.



You really should seek out a medical ethics class. It is considerably complex. Ultimately the individual has to make a determination if they are going to follow the tenents of their faith, objectivity, the patients faith, or yet another option. 

Look at the recent shooting of the OB/GYN performing abortions in a Christian church. Talk about conflicting... But yet he somehow managed to reconcile for himself the discrepency. Not being religious myself, I cannot even begin to explain that one. 

But it is my belief that any provider who puts their religious convictions over that of a patient is not properly serving the patient. But the only person who I can convince of that is me. You may agree or disagree, but not from my opinion.


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 7, 2010)

Double post


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 7, 2010)

> Yes there is evidence and study on the topic



Not that supports your beliefs _and_ is credible, reliable and without massive overarching bias.  You have to realize that simply because you agree with the results of a study does not mean it constitutes "evidence", at least of anything other than gullibility and a poor grasp on how to read and assess research.  If you believe the half-*** studies on prayer, I have a few studies from the 1930s and 1940s about the genetic predisposition of various cultural traits you'd probably fascinated to read.  They have about the same level of credibility and scientific validity.  



> You can't praise a deity for the unexpectedly positive events without likewise attributing blame for the exponentially more frequent negative outcomes



What he said.



> and there are MEDICAL miracles... we talk about but give the credit to NOTHING and/or NO ONE.



You know....except for the medical professionals who worked very hard to deliver the care that resulted in a lucky outcome.  Just because we can't explain something with the evidence we have now doesn't mean an invisible man in the sky is responsible for it.  The only reason they are called "miracles" is because of the old times when the Catholic Church controlled everything and if they couldn't explain it it had to be a "miracle".  Pay attention to the origin of words, their use and how it has changed over time and a lot of the voodoo-like mystery you are eluding to goes away. 



> Could there be a bias... one that is against the patient?


Nope. You're using a strawman argument to defend something that is frankly indefensible.  I can't prove you wrong (at least not to the point of destroying your faith) and you can't prove yourself correct to any reasonable burden of proof.  Such is the nature of faith versus science.  You choose to put your faith in something you can't see and I choose to accept the limitations of human knowledge and expertise such as they are and do not feel the need to have an imaginary friend to explain those things we simply haven't figured out yet.   You need to learn to separate your faith and your profession; it is OK if your faith drives you to do great things for others in a selfless manner, it is completely separate if your faith is used to remove credit from yourself, your colleagues and the wonderous capability of the human body to survive and recover from crap we think should be lethal. 



> not only is the god jealous but he is insecure..



I agree with Veneficus on this one.  



> Would you want a Muslim to offer prayers to Allah if you were a Pentecostal adherent?



I have no problems with it.  That's their call.  



> But yet he somehow managed to reconcile for himself the discrepency. Not being religious myself, I cannot even begin to explain that one.



Simple, when religion is taken to an extreme it begins to constitute a form of mental illness just like anything else.  It tends to bring out both the best and worst in humanity, often hand in hand.  One need look no further than the sundry "Christian" charities that offer medical care to third world peoples simply as a way of forcing them to "convert". 

Oh, and didn't you know, that "Thou shalt not commit murder" apparently only applies if the person is the same faith as you (at least according to some sects).  



> But if the patient asks me to pray with them, then I just follow their lead. If they ask for a priest (minister, shamen, Rabbi, or whatever) I make every effort to provide what they request.
> 
> If they ask me to take part in some basic ritual like leaving the "sick rag" on their head or bowing my head or a moment of silence, if it doesn't interefere with actual intervention then I make every effort to honor their request.



Same here...I'll pray over someone if asked to so long as it does interfere with patient care.  I may have little to no faith myself (although I base most of my ethical standards on various religious teachings), I figure if it keeps the patient calmer and more willing to comply with what needs to be done it's a good idea.  After all, religion is one of the best ways to control people.


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## rjw225 (Apr 7, 2010)

> I have no problems with it.  That's their call.



What I was attempting to describe (unsuccessfully, it seems  ) is a situation wherein the EMT, who is of a faith doctrinally and/or culturally controverted by the faith of the patient, initiates and/or leads what he/she perceives as welcome and appropriate spiritual ritual that inadvertently creates unnecessary conflict that could jeopardize the patient's outcome and the EMT's professional standing and personal livelihood.

Basically, the potential for harm implicit in mixing myth with medicine in the pre-hospital environment is infinitely greater than the unpredictable, unverifiable and unquantifiable assumed "benefits".


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## Veneficus (Apr 7, 2010)

usafmedic45 said:


> Simple, when religion is taken to an extreme it begins to constitute a form of mental illness just like anything else.  It tends to bring out both the best and worst in humanity, often hand in hand.  One need look no further than the sundry "Christian" charities that offer medical care to third world peoples simply as a way of forcing them to "convert". .



Don't get me started on that... It also creates famine on an epic proportion resulting in not only a complete breakdown of economy and resources, but perpetuates the very poverty that makes people suseptible to this trash labeled as "help."


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 7, 2010)

> What I was attempting to describe (unsuccessfully, it seems  ) is a situation wherein the EMT, who is of a faith doctrinally and/or culturally controverted by the faith of the patient, initiates and/or leads what he/she perceives as welcome and appropriate spiritual ritual that inadvertently creates unnecessary conflict that could jeopardize the patient's outcome and the EMT's professional standing and personal livelihood.



I understand...and that is why I keep my beliefs and profession separate.


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## firecoins (Apr 7, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> I sat in a class my first year of undergrad called "mysteries of evil." Of the required reading was a satanic publication. I wondered the significance of it. The prof later lectured that all Christians are Satanists and vice versa. You cannot have a protagonist without an antagonist. So I ask: Can you have an athiest without a religion to be against?



atheist is not agaist religion or in opposition to religion.  They are without religion. The  "a" stands for without theism.   The correct opposite of a theist is an antitheist. You can not have antitheist without a theist.


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## Veneficus (Apr 7, 2010)

firecoins said:


> atheist is not agaist religion or in opposition to religion.  They are without religion. The  "a" stands for without theism.   The correct opposite of a theist is an antitheist. You can not have antitheist without a theist.



cool.

But it does seem like a lot of people identifying as atheist are really the antitheist in their pursuits.


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## firecoins (Apr 7, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> cool.
> 
> But it does seem like a lot of people identifying as atheist are really the antitheist in their pursuits.



People who are atheist are skeptical of ALL supernatural claims.  We require evidence.


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## Veneficus (Apr 7, 2010)

firecoins said:


> People who are atheist are skeptical of ALL supernatural claims.  We require evidence.



I thought that was agnostic?

I doubt many will produce supernatural evidence. Seems kind of hard to have evidence of that which is beyong the understanding of man.


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 7, 2010)

> People who are atheist are skeptical of ALL supernatural claims. We require evidence.



Hell, I'm skeptical of all claims, supernatural or otherwise. 



> I thought that was agnostic?



I could be argued that way.  The best term for someone who is skeptical by nature is "scientist".


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## eveningsky339 (Apr 7, 2010)

I'm an extremely spiritual person, but I do not pray on a call.  Too busy being "on the edge," so to speak.  

I do pray, however, after a call.

If I can recall correctly, according to some studies, prayer does seem to have a positive effect on patients (even when the patients don't know that they are being prayed for).  No links or solid data, however.

EDIT:  And allow me to clarify what many seem to have missed... this thread was about prayer, not Christianity.  Prayer has been around much longer than Christianity.


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## firecoins (Apr 7, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> I thought that was agnostic?
> 
> I doubt many will produce supernatural evidence. Seems kind of hard to have evidence of that which is beyong the understanding of man.



I don't consider it agnostic but we are playing with semantics.  I view the agnostic position as someone who might consider religious claims or part of it with out evidence. They just don't know.   

The "beyond the understanding"  assumes man can not find out. I don't make that assumption. I assume we can find out.


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