# 2013 4 Year Paramedic Degree



## Trainer12 (Jun 22, 2011)

I have been hearing some that several new EMS laws are coming in 2013. I have also heard that starting then it will be a 4 year program to be certified as a medic. Has anyone heard about that? 


Also would you consider it helpful to take A&P 1&2 for EMS? Thanks!


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## Journey (Jun 22, 2011)

Trainer12 said:


> I have been hearing some that several new EMS laws are coming in 2013. I have also heard that starting then it will be a 4 year program to be certified as a medic. Has anyone heard about that?



No, not even the 2 year degree will be required.

There are also only about 12 colleges in the US which offer a 4 year degree in Paramedicine.  There are between 10 and 50 Paramedic certification programs in each state.

There will be 4 levels by the NREMT starting at the beginning of 2014.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/ems/EMSScope.pdf


Accreditation by CoAEMSP requirement for Paramedic programs will start at the beginning of 2013.

http://www.coaemsp.org/

http://www.nremt.org/nremt/downloads/Newsletter_2009.pdf


College A&P 1 and 2 would be help but probably still not required by many EMT or Paramedic programs. There are accredited Paramedic programs which offer a one week crash overview course in A&P for Paramedic students and are still fully accredited.


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## Journey (Jun 22, 2011)

Journey said:


> Accreditation by CoAEMSP requirement for Paramedic programs will start at the beginning of 2013.



A little correction. This requirement will only be for the states using the NREMT for their Paramedic exam.


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## nwhitney (Jun 22, 2011)

Some states such as Oregon require a 2 year degree to work as a medic.  There are some ways around that though.

Yes take A&P!


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## Journey (Jun 22, 2011)

nwhitney said:


> Some states such as Oregon require a 2 year degree to work as a medic.  There are some ways around that though.
> 
> Yes take A&P!



Only two states require the two year degree and yes there are loopholes around that.


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## terrible one (Jun 22, 2011)

I wish they'd atleast require a 2 year degree.


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## SeanEddy (Jun 22, 2011)

I agree that a degree program would be nice. The only problem is, the pay has the match the education requirements. 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Journey (Jun 22, 2011)

SeanEddy said:


> I agree that a degree program would be nice. The only problem is, the pay has the match the education requirements.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk



You can not pay people "hoping" they'll use the money to get a degree. If the pay was good, then why bother with a degree.  

An Associates degree is not even considered "professional" by many professions which is why RNs are now looking seriously at making the BSN their entry.  Do you think RNs would still be able to command their wages if they has stayed at a diploma level?  What about PTs if they still only required a Bachelors (4 year degree) or SLP or OT? Do you think CMS would be taking them seriously at a professional level for their reimbursement? 

How about some of the nonmedical professions? A two year degree majoring in accounting gets you the title of BookKeeper. A 4 year degree in law studies makes you a Legal Assistant.  Even mechanics now have at least two year degrees or the equivalent or they are oil changers if they are lucky enough to get a job. 

What other profession allows you to do some much and require so little education? It is appalling that some states like Texas allows an open scope of practice with bragging rights to over 60 meds (if Linuss is not exaggerating), some of which have potential for dire consequences in the hands of the under educated. Even a lack of understanding of something like fentanyl must be given correctly with an understanding of the side effects.  Yet, you can be a Paramedic in TX in as little as 634 hours or a little over 3 months of training with no prerequisites required.  When some RSI mishaps (deadly) from TX made the EMS headlines, it was mentioned that it takes more hours to become a hairdresser than a Paramedic. But, more arguments  exist from the providers in EMS against education than for it so even with the incidents where more education could have prevented the death of the patient at the hands of the provider, the inconveniencing of the providers with all that education stuff will be considered first.


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## MrBrown (Jun 22, 2011)

The problem is that a two year Degree is not a two year Paramedic degree, it requires a third to half of classes in "general education" or "liberal arts" which are nice, but have no actual bearing on being a Paramedic.

The two year associate nursing degrees offer little about 1,000 hours of education from what Brown has also seen, and again require a lot of "general" education which is more specific but still not devoted entirely to nursing

Our Bachelors Degrees contain totally what the US call "upper division" or "concentration/major" with no "general" education required.

Oh, and that 12 week Paramedic factory in Indiana is approved by the bloody CoAEMSP, so whats the point?


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## Journey (Jun 22, 2011)

MrBrown said:


> The problem is that a two year Degree is not a two year Paramedic degree, it requires a third to half of classes in "general education" or "liberal arts" which are nice, but have no actual bearing on being a Paramedic.



Actually 70 hours with 40 being core Paramedic and at least 2 A&P classes each with lab, a good pharm class and just one each of the 3 Rs take up most of the 70 hours leaving little to no time for psychology or sociology which should also be part of that program. I do NOT believe you should cut the basic math and English classes from the degree.  Too many use this "liberal arts" argument with suggestion of Old World Literature without knowing what liberal arts consists of and the many options a student has to choose from. 



MrBrown said:


> The two year associate nursing degrees offer little about 1,000 hours of education from what Brown has also seen, and again require a lot of "general" education which is more specific but still not devoted entirely to nursing



RNs have over 1000 hours of clinicals in their degree program along with all the classes.  Their 2 year degree is actually more like 3 to 3.5 since most of the prequisites are required to be done before application can be made to the program.   This is why it makes more sense to just do the BSN with a bigger degree for not much more time. 



MrBrown said:


> Our Bachelors Degrees contain totally what the US call "upper division" or "concentration/major" with no "general" education required.



Most of the Bachelors degrees will have the sciences in the lower division as a prep for the professional concentration in the upper division. Again, I believe there should be some prerequisites such as A&P rather than just a concentration of memorizing protocols and gaining skills without knowing the whys.



MrBrown said:


> Oh, and that 12 week Paramedic factory in Indiana is approved by the bloody CoAEMSP, so whats the point?




CoAEMSP does not set the education requirements for entry but rather monitors certain aspects. If 600 hours is still the entry number of hours for the Paramedic, CoAEMSP may see the program is meeting that. Right now EMS as a whole has low standards for education and the educators.

Just like any other profession accredited by CAAHEP, as requirements in that profession increased, the monitoring agencies adjusted to changes.


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## tacitblue (Jun 22, 2011)

MrBrown said:


> The problem is that a two year Degree is not a two year Paramedic degree, it requires a third to half of classes in "general education" or "liberal arts" which are nice, but have no actual bearing on being a Paramedic.
> 
> The two year associate nursing degrees offer little about 1,000 hours of education from what Brown has also seen, and again require a lot of "general" education which is more specific but still not devoted entirely to nursing
> 
> Our Bachelors Degrees contain totally what the US call "upper division" or "concentration/major" with no "general" education required.



I wouldn't give up my "liberal arts general education" for anything. I use my training in anthropology, english, and philosophy almost daily on the job as a medic. I live in a diverse state (California) where cultures collide, and I find myself understanding people and explaining things to my partners that they dimiss as stupidity. I feel that I can think critically and where needed, scientifically about healthcare, patient care, and ethics. Every class I have ever taken in college has complemented my paramedic training in weird ways that I would have never thought possible. 

In America, there is also the Jeffersonian tradition in higher education. A good democracy requires an educated citizenry to function. This is something I hold to be true.


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## 8jimi8 (Jun 22, 2011)

Journey said:


> You can not pay people "hoping" they'll use the money to get a degree. If the pay was good, then why bother with a degree.
> 
> An Associates degree is not even considered "professional" by many professions which is why RNs are now looking seriously at making the BSN their entry.  Do you think RNs would still be able to command their wages if they has stayed at a diploma level?  What about PTs if they still only required a Bachelors (4 year degree) or SLP or OT? Do you think CMS would be taking them seriously at a professional level for their reimbursement?
> 
> ...



hmm what's your level of training? How many hours of education do you have?


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## Journey (Jun 22, 2011)

8jimi8 said:


> hmm what's your level of training? How many hours of education do you have?



Why don't you demand that of everybody? I see many on here who don't post their credentials? Is it because my posts intimidate you and linuss? 

Why don't you suggest a closed forum to where you must provide a valid license to post?  That would solve your worries.  Don't expect names, addresses and phone numbers to be openly published on this type of forum.

So, close the forum to any and all who don't want to reveal their education, name and whatever personal information.  

But, it is because of people such as yourself who would probably use whatever someone posts you don't agree with to go to their employer for your own agenda...anonymously of course.

Now, what exactly don't you agree with in my post? Are you against education? I bet you think the BSN is too much and the ADN is more than adequate for the RN.


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## usalsfyre (Jun 22, 2011)

Journey said:


> Why don't you demand that of everybody? I see many on here who don't post their credentials? Is it because my posts intimidate you and linuss?
> 
> Why don't you suggest a closed forum to where you must provide a valid license to post?  That would solve your worries.  Don't expect names, addresses and phone numbers to be openly published on this type of forum.
> 
> ...



I would like to know your educational level and background because you choose to come here and run down EMS. As we recently found out, it's not hard to fake things on the web.

I'll be upfront. I am a paramedic, I completed a college-based curriculum at Northern Virginia Community College in 2003. I did not get a degree because I was young and stupid, life has gotten in the way of rectifying that although I hope to fix that starting this fall. I completed the UMBC CCEMT-P at Boiser Parish Community College in 2008.  I've worked for two municipal FDs as a medic, tech'd in two tertiary facility EDs, flew for about a year for a community-based service and currently work for a private in a rural 911 system (the second one I've worked for) where I am an FTO. Prior to all this I was a volunteer EMT-Basic for a couple of years. I don't openly post my employer (against policy) but it's not hard to figure out who it is. I've recruited people. If anyone wants to verify who I am I can point you in the right direction.

Cheap shots at EMS from someone who comes to the forum with a gigantic chip on their shoulder are the issue with what you say, not really the content. If closed forums are so much better, why not stay in there? Why come back here?


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## Journey (Jun 22, 2011)

usalsfyre said:


> I would like to know your educational level and background because you choose to come here and run down EMS. As we recently found out, it's not hard to fake things on the web.
> 
> I'll be upfront. I am a paramedic, I completed a college-based curriculum at Northern Virginia Community College in 2003. I did not get a degree because I was young and stupid, life has gotten in the way of rectifying that although I hope to fix that starting this fall. I completed the UMBC CCEMT-P at Boiser Parish Community College in 2008.  I've worked for two municipal FDs as a medic, tech'd in two tertiary facility EDs, flew for about a year for a community-based service and currently work for a private in a rural 911 system (the second one I've worked for) where I am an FTO. Prior to all this I was a volunteer EMT-Basic for a couple of years. I don't openly post my employer (against policy) but it's not hard to figure out who it is. I've recruited people. If anyone wants to verify who I am I can point you in the right direction.
> 
> Cheap shots at EMS from someone who comes to the forum with a gigantic chip on their shoulder are the issue with what you say, not really the content.



You could have copied that from anywhere or anyone.


Why don't you just post your name so we can verify your license and your address?

Why do you think I am running down EMS? What part of my post do you have a problem with?  Are you trying to say EMS in the US requires a Bachelors degree?  Are you saying the EMT has more than adequate hours of training? What part of my post do you disagree with? Do you agree with the 3 month programs to be a Paramedic? Those are the things I take issue with and would like to see impoved. Too freakin' bad if you are anti education but too chicken crap to come out with a decent argument. You would rather make personal attacks than take a stance.  

Again, just post your name (or the one you are using) so all of us can verify your identity, where you live and work. What's with the guessing game if you say where you work is already known.  Maybe we can call your wife if you really have one to verify the information.

Your personal attacks and stance against those who are pro education must do your employer proud. I definitely would like to know where you work.



usalsfyre said:


> If closed forums are so much better, why not stay in there? Why come back here?



I do primarily stay in closed forums where we do know each others identity. But you state that as if it is a bad thing. Maybe you really don't have a certification or a license of any type. 

If you notice, I rarely post here unlike some like yourself who feel they must hijack every thread to run off anyone who disagrees that EMS is fine just the way it is and don't need no educatin' crap preached around here.


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## usalsfyre (Jun 22, 2011)

Journey said:


> You could have copied that from anywhere or anyone.


Just like you could spout whatever you want...



Journey said:


> Why don't you just post your name so we can verify your license and your address?


Considering just a minute ago you posted how to use a license number to jam up a forum member with their employer, I think not. Why don't you go first?



Journey said:


> Why do you think I am running down EMS? What part of my post do you have a problem with?  Are you trying to say EMS in the US requires a Bachelors degree?  Are you saying the EMT has more than adequate hours of training? What part of my post do you disagree with? Do you agree with the 3 month programs to be a Paramedic? Those are the things I take issue with and would like to see impoved. Too freakin' bad if you are anti education but too chicken crap to come out with a decent argument. You would rather make personal attacks than take a stance.


In actuality, I agree with everything there. It's the "if so and so isn't lying" and "paramedics as a whole are too idiotic to be trusted" and "easily influenced by one poorly written article" ect. It's not the content, it's the moral high horse tone I take issue with.



Journey said:


> Again, just post your name (or the one you are using) so all of us can verify your identity, where you live and work. What's with the guessing game if you say where you work is already known.  Maybe we can call your wife if you really have one to verify the information.


Not a chance. You go on ahead and do the same, I'll consider it. I doubt you'll even go as far as I did though.



Journey said:


> Your personal attacks and stance against those who are pro education must do your employer proud.


As would yours if they saw the seemingly bipolar rants posted at various times. Personal attacks? You dragged another forum member in who hadn't even posted to this thread to delve into a rant on education (which again, I agree with the content of) for lord only knows what reason. Ask the members here how anti-education I am. See how many times I've recommended A&P, chem, bio, english, ect. 



Journey said:


> I do primarily stay in closed forums where we do know each others identity. But you state that as if it is a bad thing. Maybe you really don't have a certification or a license of any type.


Maybe you don't. Maybe we all took the blue pill instead of the red one.



Journey said:


> If you notice, I rarely post here unlike some like yourself who feel they must hijack every thread to run off anyone who disagrees that EMS is fine just the way it is and don't need no educatin' crap preached around here.


You have never read my other post if you truly believe that. You are a disruptive force all around the web and can't contribute without attacking members or the EMS establishment (which needs to change, but taking cheap shots at it doesn't accomplish that). As such, yeah, I challenge you. One day, when you stop dwelling on how EMS has failed you perhaps you will be able to help change the way out-of-hospital care is delivered in this country. Until then you will be marginalized as someone who injects far too much emotion into an argument and can't help but go nuclear when someone disagrees with their fantasy land moral system. 

You can be an asset, or you can be ignored. It's your choice. If you lose the attitude and are able to engage in respectful discourse, then you seem to have a lot to offer and you'll find most of us actually agree with you on ALOT of issues. If you cant leave the personal baggage at the door then you just come off as someone bitter at EMS who needs to let go and get a life.


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## ffemt8978 (Jun 22, 2011)

Knock if off!


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## Journey (Jun 22, 2011)

usalsfyre 


I will repeat...NO WAY ARE YOU GETTING MY NAME, ADDRESS, EMPLOYER OR PHONE NUMBER.

Your personal attacks and accusations speak clearly of what type of person you are.


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## ffemt8978 (Jun 22, 2011)

What part of "Knock it off!" are you having a problem understanding?


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## Journey (Jun 22, 2011)

ffemt8978 said:


> What part of "Knock it off!" are you having a problem understanding?



I was typing while you posted that.  Forgive me for not using a split screen so I could see your post as it appeared.


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## sir.shocksalot (Jun 22, 2011)

Getting back on topic, I think that until there is a large, definitive, prospective study that clearly illustrates how poorly we are doing our jobs and how much our lack of education is to blame I doubt we will see significant educational changes. 

The problem lies with all of us, our employers, and our medical directors. EMS has become such a transient or part-time/volunteer career that we lost any sense of stability in the profession.

As providers we expect more out of our "education" in terms of job security and compensation, yet we don't improve our education or increase entry requirements to the point that paramedics are exclusive enough to demand reasonable compensation. Many lament our pay, however fail to note that a high school graduate can walk out of school and within a year be a practicing paramedic. I don't see RNs, RTs, MDs, PAs, etc who have their career open so quickly to high school graduates. Then we also have a large portion of card carrying paramedics who only got the training to enter a separate career entirely (firefighting is completely unrelated to EMS, regardless of what hosemonkeys try to insinuate).

Our employers recognize the transient nature of the workforce and take advantage of it. Most private ambulance paramedics are actively seeking work at a FD, so why try and attract paramedics with decent wages when most will simply leave for a FD. And why pay attractive wages when a recent high school grad will happily drive a flashy red firetruck look-a-like around for $9.00/hr. The employers in the best position to push EMS forward don't because then working for a FD will become so exclusive to those practicing pre-hospital care, and lord forbid that firefighters have to do more medical stuff. 3rd service providers are the most likely to successfully push for more education, but for some reason they don't.

And medical directors are often uninvolved with Paramedics at their service that sometimes gross incompetence and negligence goes unnoticed until a lawsuit is filed. Furthermore, many medical directors lack a complete picture of EMS from the educational (or lack thereof) background of paramedics to the way they think and practice on the streets. Due to their ignorance, willful or otherwise, they do not often push for more education.

All the people that should be pushing education to the front of issues facing EMS today (in the US), are not. And I can't come up with a good reason other than, "there is no real proof that what we are doing now is bad, and we have been doing it this way since ... blah blah blah.... FD traditions... blah blah blah.... response times etc." It's distressing really.

Note: I realize many of you work for outlying agencies that break some of these issues, but I speak for most EMS agencies, not everyone. There are always odd ones out that do the right thing (or "right-er" thing as the case is).


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## usalsfyre (Jun 22, 2011)

All that aside...

NREMT is restricting paramedic level testing to only folks who have completed an accredited program. Which means bupkis. Some truly awful programs will still find ways to get around the requirement through affiliation agreements, ect. Not to mention some states have hinted if it affects certain programs to badly they'll drop the NREMT requirement.

I think you shouldn't be able to test without an associate's degree, minimum. Yes, I'm I gigantic freaking hypocrite for saying that. You have to start somewhere though. Baccalaureate and post-graduate education are truly what's needed though. In my area at least, paramedics are closer to mid-level providers than anything else really. It's a role we're laughably underprepared for. Educational change won't come overnight though. It's not a matter of money, it's a matter of organizational inertia. Starting small is the way to change this. Shoot for an associates by say 2015, a bachelor's by 2020.


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## sir.shocksalot (Jun 22, 2011)

usalsfyre said:


> NREMT is restricting paramedic level testing to only folks who have completed an accredited program.


Doesn't help that some of the people on the accrediting board are only on there to ensure in-house training programs can be accredited. (thanks IAFF and IAFC!)


usalsfyre said:


> I think you shouldn't be able to test without an associate's degree, minimum. Yes, I'm I gigantic freaking hypocrite for saying that. You have to start somewhere though.


At least you are saying it, and the more that we start to get people saying it, the more likely we are to start pushing this issue to the front for pre-hospital providers. I think the people that don't have the degree are the ones most resistant to it's requirement, so it's good seeing undegreed paramedics saying that we need degrees.


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## 8jimi8 (Jun 23, 2011)

Journey said:


> Why don't you demand that of everybody? I see many on here who don't post their credentials? Is it because my posts intimidate you and linuss?
> 
> Why don't you suggest a closed forum to where you must provide a valid license to post?  That would solve your worries.  Don't expect names, addresses and phone numbers to be openly published on this type of forum.
> 
> ...



My license number has already been provided to Mmiz.

My education is bachelor of arts in Pyschology minor in philosophy.  I am a member of pi gamma mu, international social sciences society.  I have my ADN from Austin community college. My BSN is in progress at university of Texas, Arlington.  My Paramedic is in progress through professional education and resources company.  

Anything else you'd like to know?  I can give you a list of con Ed I've completed as well.   Procedural Anatomy at CCTMC in Nashville,  SLAM Airway forth worth, Essentials of Cardiac Monitoring,  Critical Care Course at Baptist Health Systems in San Antonio.  CPR, ACLS, PEPP, PALS


Need I keep going?  What bugs me about you is your freaking holier than thou attitude.  Didn't you promise to disappear into a forum that requires submission of license verification a few threads back, Liar.


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## DrParasite (Jun 23, 2011)

8jimi8 said:


> My education is bachelor of arts in Pyschology minor in philosophy.


what exactly does that qualify you do do, other than ask "would you like fries with that?" 

just for the record, without actually verifying what you are typing, your list of credentials are pretty much worthless.  not that I am saying you don't have exactly what you say you have, but I can claim to be anyone who I want on the internet.

and also for the record, I think a little anonymity is a good thing.  too many sketchy people who would work to destroy someones career/marriage/life over an argument on an online forum.  esp over something as trivial as who has a bigger **** (or who claims to have a bigger one lol)

and no way anyone would ever get my license, full name or even employer.  i just don't trust anyone to not use it maliciously, and I don't care what you think of that.


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## 8jimi8 (Jun 23, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> what exactly does that qualify you do do, other than ask "would you like fries with that?"
> 
> just for the record, without actually verifying what you are typing, your list of credentials are pretty much worthless.  not that I am saying you don't have exactly what you say you have, but I can claim to be anyone who I want on the internet.
> 
> ...



Dr Parasite, it qualifies me to have a gold border around the paramedic patch I'll be wearing next year.  It also gives me the right to write LP after my RN BSN.  Granted these titles are in progress, but I hope that answers your question!  BTW I'm not asking for EVERYONE'S credentials, just little-miss-holier-than-thou-I-can-quote-the-internet-to-show-you-how-much-more-than-you-I-know.  Heck. She's probably medicRob...So it doesn't matter what credentials she lies about.


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## MrBrown (Jun 23, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> what exactly does that qualify you do do, other than ask "would you like fries with that?"
> 
> just for the record, without actually verifying what you are typing, your list of credentials are pretty much worthless
> 
> ... and I don't care what you think of that.



Bloody hell mate that is some attitude you have, but that right there is the most arrogant thing Brown has ever heard anybody say.

Brown would say more but might get banned but please, tell Brown if you think either of Brown's two Degrees and Intermediate Care qualification are useless too??


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## DrParasite (Jun 23, 2011)

MrBrown said:


> Bloody hell mate that is some attitude you have, but that right there is the most arrogant thing Brown has ever heard anybody say.
> 
> Brown would say more but might get banned but please, tell Brown if you think either of Brown's two Degrees and Intermediate Care qualification are useless too??


Brown needs to take a chill pill, otherwise he is going got stroke out.  maybe he needs a hug from Mrs Brown?

if Browns degree was a psychology degree with a minor in philosophy, than i would ask if you are trained in delivering fries as well.  It was a joke.

And in case your Brown to English translation service is not functioning, I never said the degrees or the certifications were worthless.  What I said was listing all your certs without actually having someone verify you have earned makes the list worthless.

DrP, MD, JD, PHD, MS, BS, BA, EMT, NREMT-P, RN, CCRN, DO, and lastly, MSJ, since their program looked really cool.  oh yeah, and DrP is also a CPR instructor.

see what I mean?  listing everything is pretty much useless, since you have no way to know if I actually earned all those degrees.  and if you didn't take bits and pieces of my post out of context, you would have probably understood that.

Please Brown, take a Brown chill pill, you seem to need one.

btw, 8jimi8, does will the LP stand for after your BSN?


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## 8jimi8 (Jun 23, 2011)

Licensed Paramedic

Edit: in TX, any related healthcare degree (except nursing) will gain you the coveted gold border and title... Yes even an associates.


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