# Pa - Physician Assistant



## EMT2PAC (Sep 27, 2012)

Are there other EMTs here who have become or are becoming PAs? PA is Physician Assistant and are licensed, quasi-autonomous medical professionals. I have been an EMT for a few years and am applying to PA school now. Have any former EMTs who became PAs continued to be involved in EMS?


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## ca11metdub (Sep 27, 2012)

In the end, I want to be a PA. 
I was a chemist for awhile then realized I wanted to pursue medicine. I did get interviewed the first year I applied but not having patient care experience really didn't make me a competitive applicant. So I volunteered for a year at a hospital while taking the EMT course.
I just recently passed the NREMT so I hope I can work in the ER room and meet some fellow PA's there that can teach me, and maybe even let me shadow. I've shadowed here and there, but will have to look for someone more reliable now. So in the meantime I'm studying for the GRE, applying for jobs, and most likely will do some volunteering at ARC.


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## EMT2PAC (Sep 28, 2012)

That's cool. I worked for about two years on the ambulance. I hope I have enough clinical hours!


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## VFlutter (Sep 28, 2012)

I would advise talking to the admissions department at the school because I know a lot of places do not consider volunteering as patient care experience. 


Direct patient care experience: This experience varies and can be acquired on a full or part-time basis. Direct patient care experience requiring certification and providing monetary compensation is most competitive (e.g., CNA, EMT, Patient Care Technician, etc.). Shadowing a PA is important and can enhance your application, however shadowing is not considered health care experience. Also, clinical hours obtained while fulfilling the required components of an educational program do not count towards healthcare experience. Volunteer hours are not considered competitive health care experience. An applicant needs to have acquired a minimum of 500 hours of direct patient care experience at the time of application. The admissions committee is able to consider only the hours that are complete at the time the CASPA application is submitted.


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## Ewok Jerky (Oct 13, 2012)

I just got accepted to a PA program, will be starting in January! woo!

i think my 2+ years as an EMT was a factor in the decision.


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## ca11metdub (Oct 13, 2012)

beano said:


> I just got accepted to a PA program, will be starting in January! woo!
> 
> i think my 2+ years as an EMT was a factor in the decision.



nice congrats! which program if you don't mind me asking?


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## VFlutter (Oct 14, 2012)

Please say that it is a Masters level PA program....


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## Ewok Jerky (Oct 14, 2012)

It is indeed a masters program.


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## Anonymous (Oct 14, 2012)

ChaseZ33 said:


> Please say that it is a Masters level PA program....



Why do you say this?


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## VFlutter (Oct 14, 2012)

Anonymous said:


> Why do you say this?



I saw that a few people who posted were from California which allows Physician Assistants to practice with a bachelors degree which I think is absolutely crazy. I am a strong advocate for education, especially in the medical field, and I do no think that any mid level provider should be allowed to practice with a masters degree.


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## Anonymous (Oct 14, 2012)

ChaseZ33 said:


> I saw that a few people who posted were from California which allows Physician Assistants to practice with a bachelors degree which I think is absolutely crazy. I am a strong advocate for education, especially in the medical field, and I do no think that any mid level provider should be allowed to practice with a masters degree.



So would you argue that someone who applies to a Masters program with a degree in underwater basket weaving and no patient care experience will be a better practitioner in 2 years time then someone who meets the same prerequisites (minus the degree) but instead has minimum 2000+ hours of patient care?


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## Anonymous (Oct 14, 2012)

Also in California, 10% of the PA programs are at the BS level, 40% are at the Certificate/AS level and the remaining 50% are at the MS level. The majority of the current PA workforce in California hold a certificate as the academic credential awarded from their PA program. What you need to get a job in California is the PA-C and a license.The difference is 6,000-7,000 dollars vs 70,000-110,000 dollars.


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## silver (Oct 14, 2012)

Anonymous said:


> So would you argue that someone who applies to a Masters program with a degree in underwater basket weaving and no patient care experience will be a better practitioner in 2 years time then someone who meets the same prerequisites (minus the degree) but instead has minimum 2000+ hours of patient care?



most masters ones require 1000 hours of patient care. At least the ones Ive looked at.


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## Jambi (Oct 14, 2012)

ChaseZ33 said:


> I saw that a few people who posted were from California which allows Physician Assistants to practice with a bachelors degree which I think is absolutely crazy. I am a strong advocate for education, especially in the medical field, and I do no think that any mid level provider should be allowed to practice with a masters degree.



You do realize that the ARC-PA keeps a tight reign on all PA programs and that regardless of the degree conferred, the standards are the same.  There is only one accrediting body for PA programs, thus there is no variability in the educational content.


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## silver (Oct 14, 2012)

Jambi said:


> You do realize that the ARC-PA keeps a tight reign on all PA programs and that regardless of the degree conferred, the standards are the same.  There is only one accrediting body for PA programs, thus there is no variability in the educational content.



RN education? No difference between cert, AAS, and BSN?


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## Jambi (Oct 14, 2012)

silver said:


> RN education? No difference between cert, AAS, and BSN?



I believe there are many different accrediting bodies for nursing, but I really don't know enough to comment.


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## Akulahawk (Oct 14, 2012)

Jambi said:


> I believe there are many different accrediting bodies for nursing, but I really don't know enough to comment.


Each state has their own standards, but they all use the NCLEX for testing. In effect, there is one minimum standard, but multiple licensing bodies with their own educational standards that must be met before they'll authorize an applicant to take the test. What makes things more interesting is that a diploma nurse, ADN nurse, BSN nurse, and ELMSN nurse all take the same NCLEX-RN and all have the same basic scope of practice, initially. The BSN may also be certifiable as a public health RN because of some additional education, and may be more desirable as a management candidate than an ADN. As to nursing school accreditation, there's a couple different bodies that accredit the schools.

My understanding matches yours in that there is only one accrediting body, therefore the content of PA school should be darned near identical from school to school, regardless of "level" of degree/certification.


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## JPINFV (Oct 14, 2012)

However, with PAs the scope of practice is set by the supervising physician. Just because a certificate and a masters both get a PA-C doesn't mean that both have an equal chance of being hired... and when they do that they're physician will allow them to practice with the same amount of leeway.


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## Akulahawk (Oct 15, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> However, with PAs the scope of practice is set by the supervising physician. Just because a certificate and a masters both get a PA-C doesn't mean that both have an equal chance of being hired... and when they do that they're physician will allow them to practice with the same amount of leeway.


I think you meant: "...and when they do, that their physician will allow them to practice with the same amount of leeway." 

I was hoping you weren't using "they're" as "they are"...

Now I'm sure you also recognize that it's highly possible that your Certificate PA and your Master's PA could actually have the same educational preparation going into the PA program... but I'm sure you'll also discover the actual performance differences in your PA as time goes on, and adjust their scope of practice accordingly. It would be a big disservice to yourself as a physician and your PA if you restricted your PA to a minimal scope for the duration of their employment with you simply because of your own bias about where they got their education and not actually upon what they know and their performance...


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## Anonymous (Oct 15, 2012)

Anonymous said:


> The majority of the current PA workforce in California hold a certificate as the academic credential awarded from their PA program.





JPINFV said:


> Just because a certificate and a masters both get a PA-C doesn't mean that both have an equal chance of being hired.



Only having a certificate certainly does not seem to hinder anyone from getting a job...


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## JPINFV (Oct 15, 2012)

Akulahawk said:


> I think you meant: "...and when they do, that their physician will allow them to practice with the same amount of leeway."
> 
> I was hoping you weren't using "they're" as "they are"...


Yep... "their" would be the proper their/they're. Opps.




> Now I'm sure you also recognize that it's highly possible that your Certificate PA and your Master's PA could actually have the same educational preparation going into the PA program... but I'm sure you'll also discover the actual performance differences in your PA as time goes on, and adjust their scope of practice accordingly. It would be a big disservice to yourself as a physician and your PA if you restricted your PA to a minimal scope for the duration of their employment with you simply because of your own bias about where they got their education and not actually upon what they know and their performance...


Very true, it all is going to be individually tailored, however just as we discuss education for EMS, and about how all EMS educational programs meets the same minimum requirements regardless of if the EMS program is certificate or degree, wouldn't the same be true regarding PA education?


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## BOSlife (Oct 16, 2012)

I am completing a B.S in psychology at the University of Central Florida... I am currently an EMT-Basic but have not yet found a job... looking for a private ambulance or ed tech position.  I plan to go to paramedic school and work as a medic for a while after I graduate. I feel this will allow significant career experience opposed to trying to go right in to PA after I graduate.


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## EMT2PAC (Oct 17, 2012)

Are there any job opportunities in pre-hospital medicine for PAs? What about flight PA or a PA who manages a long-distance transport of an unstable patient?

I think the name of this thread was changed. It now says "Pa- Physician*'s* Assistant" but I didn't write that. PA is a Physician Assistant not Physician's. How did that happen or did I screw up?


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## Tigger (Oct 17, 2012)

EMT2PAC said:


> Are there any job opportunities in pre-hospital medicine for PAs? What about flight PA or a PA who manages a long-distance transport of an unstable patient?
> 
> I think the name of this thread was changed. It now says "Pa- Physician*'s* Assistant" but I didn't write that. PA is a Physician Assistant not Physician's. How did that happen or did I screw up?



Pa is a rather unspecific title, I'd bet one of the mods changed it to be more clear. 

To my understanding there are very few (if any, I can't find any at the moment) flight programs that use PAs. Even the few programs with doctors (EM residents usually) seem to be cutting back and starting to use more "traditional" RN/PM crews.


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## EMT2PAC (Oct 17, 2012)

Tigger said:


> Pa is a rather unspecific title, I'd bet one of the mods changed it to be more clear.
> 
> To my understanding there are very few (if any, I can't find any at the moment) flight programs that use PAs. Even the few programs with doctors (EM residents usually) seem to be cutting back and starting to use more "traditional" RN/PM crews.



What do you mean by "unspecific title"? I've done a fair bit of research and shadowing of PAs and it seems pretty specific from what I've seen. I know that PAs get really upset when you add in the 's. One of them told me they are more like _Assistant Doctors_ or _Assistant Physicians_ which actually made a lot of sense to me, sort of like an _Assistant Professor_ at a college or _Assistant Director_ in an organization. They have a lot of their own authority but work under the guidance and ultimate authority of the full professor, full director, etc.


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## Tigger (Oct 17, 2012)

EMT2PAC said:


> What do you mean by "unspecific title"? I've done a fair bit of research and shadowing of PAs and it seems pretty specific from what I've seen. I know that PAs get really upset when you add in the 's. One of them told me they are more like _Assistant Doctors_ or _Assistant Physicians_ which actually made a lot of sense to me, sort of like an _Assistant Professor_ at a college or _Assistant Director_ in an organization. They have a lot of their own authority but work under the guidance and ultimate authority of the full professor, full director, etc.



I honestly had no idea what this thread was going to be, it wasn't fully capitalized. I thought it would be EMT courses in Pennsylvania, or perhaps licensing or getting a job. You may have also been talking about your "pa" and how he was an EMT and you want to be like him, I could go on, you see what I mean?


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## Anonymous (Oct 17, 2012)

Point EMT2PAC is making is it is Physician Assistant. (No "s" at the end of physician)


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## EMT2PAC (Oct 17, 2012)

Tigger said:


> I honestly had no idea what this thread was going to be, it wasn't fully capitalized. I thought it would be EMT courses in Pennsylvania, or perhaps licensing or getting a job. You may have also been talking about your "pa" and how he was an EMT and you want to be like him, I could go on, you see what I mean?



Oh I totally understand! I originally entitled the thread "PA- Physician Assistant" and in the first post I gave a brief description of PAs as being licensed, quasi-autonomous medical providers. I think the administrator of the forum changed the title, but I don't know why?


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## EMT2PAC (Oct 17, 2012)

So here's a question- assume you are a licensed PA working in an ED. Maybe you even did a one year PA residency in emergency medicine, like this one. Are you able to be the medical control for an EMS crew? Can you legally (and if the hospital allows it) override their SMOs in order to allow them to treat a patient differently?


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## Medic Tim (Oct 17, 2012)

EMT2PAC said:


> So here's a question- assume you are a licensed PA working in an ED. Maybe you even did a one year PA residency in emergency medicine, like this one. Are you able to be the medical control for an EMS crew? Can you legally (and if the hospital allows it) override their SMOs in order to allow them to treat a patient differently?



Considering RNs answer the phone/radio and give medical control in some areas, I would think it is possible.


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## Jambi (Oct 17, 2012)

EMT2PAC said:


> So here's a question- assume you are a licensed PA working in an ED. Maybe you even did a one year PA residency in emergency medicine, like this one. Are you able to be the medical control for an EMS crew? Can you legally (and if the hospital allows it) override their SMOs in order to allow them to treat a patient differently?



It all comes down to delegated authority.  If a PA can demonstrate competency then he or she may operate in any capacity as agreed to in his or her practice agreements within law.


There are PA's serving as assistant medical directors, and those that respond in "fly" cars in some parts of the county.

Check out the PA Forum for more answers.  A member that goes by "medic25" is one such PA.


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## EMT2PAC (Oct 17, 2012)

Jambi said:


> It all comes down to delegated authority.  If a PA can demonstrate competency then he or she may operate in any capacity as agreed to in his or her practice agreements within law.
> 
> 
> There are PA's serving as assistant medical directors, and those that respond in "fly" cars in some parts of the county.
> ...



Right, I was thinking this. If the hospital delegates this authority to their EM PAs then it should be ok for them to give online medical control. What is the role of an assistant medical director?


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## firecoins (Oct 17, 2012)

Physician Assistant can give medical control in Westchester, NY or the lower Hudson Valley assuming they have passed the same REMAC test the MDs are required to take allowing them to give medical control. The medics, MDs and PAs must all be on the same page.


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## EMT2PAC (Oct 19, 2012)

firecoins said:


> Physician Assistant can give medical control in Westchester, NY or the lower Hudson Valley assuming they have passed the same REMAC test the MDs are required to take allowing them to give medical control. The medics, MDs and PAs must all be on the same page.



Cool, good to know. Do you know what the role of "assistant medical director" is?


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## firecoins (Oct 19, 2012)

EMT2PAC said:


> Cool, good to know. Do you know what the role of "assistant medical director" is?



It's non existant here. Companies don't need one and won't pay for one. Plenty of MDs available. PAs work in the ER and can give medics orders. That's all that's needed.


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## Mindy (Oct 19, 2012)

I'm looking at becoming an EMT to gain clinical hours before applying to a PA program. Some background for my question: I live in NYC. I have a masters/career in another field and I have to go back to school for my prerequisites before I can apply to PA programs. Is it possible to work part time as an EMT while getting my prereq's? I'm trying to stay in my current position as long as I can (reluctant to give up the salary) and love to get my clinical hours while taking a year for prereq's.  Where do you think I could get part time EMT work?

Also, I've been looking at EMT programs in NYC and I'm not sure if matters where I get my training. I know you test through the state, but I don't want to sign up  just where (especially in this city- I'm sure there are some bogus programs out there). I want strong training and I'm not sure where I should go... any suggestions?


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## EMT2PAC (Oct 20, 2012)

Mindy said:


> I'm looking at becoming an EMT to gain clinical hours before applying to a PA program. Some background for my question: I live in NYC. I have a masters/career in another field and I have to go back to school for my prerequisites before I can apply to PA programs. Is it possible to work part time as an EMT while getting my prereq's? I'm trying to stay in my current position as long as I can (reluctant to give up the salary) and love to get my clinical hours while taking a year for prereq's.  Where do you think I could get part time EMT work?
> 
> Also, I've been looking at EMT programs in NYC and I'm not sure if matters where I get my training. I know you test through the state, but I don't want to sign up  just where (especially in this city- I'm sure there are some bogus programs out there). I want strong training and I'm not sure where I should go... any suggestions?



I think it depends on how quickly you want to finish the pre-reqs. Do you want to be done as quickly as possible, then you probably want to take a full load of classes and study full-time. Do you want to space it out and take only 1-2 prereq classes at a time then, then you can probably work part-time. During the slow hours you can study and sleep. 

I'm finish the last of the pre-reqs now and it's a full-time job of studying. That's what you get when you take 12 credits, work full-time, and need to study. What's this thing called "sleep"?


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## VFlutter (Oct 20, 2012)

I need to shadow a few PAs/AAs  since so far I have only followed NPs. I can apply for PA school as soon as a graduate but not sure if its worth it over waiting for ACNP/CRNA


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## CAR1 (Oct 20, 2012)

Mindy said:


> I'm looking at becoming an EMT to gain clinical hours before applying to a PA program. Some background for my question: I live in NYC. I have a masters/career in another field and I have to go back to school for my prerequisites before I can apply to PA programs. Is it possible to work part time as an EMT while getting my prereq's? I'm trying to stay in my current position as long as I can (reluctant to give up the salary) and love to get my clinical hours while taking a year for prereq's.  Where do you think I could get part time EMT work?
> 
> Also, I've been looking at EMT programs in NYC and I'm not sure if matters where I get my training. I know you test through the state, but I don't want to sign up  just where (especially in this city- I'm sure there are some bogus programs out there). I want strong training and I'm not sure where I should go... any suggestions?



Try emergency care programs. They have a variety of schedules for EMT-B. and once you get your certification you might also want to look into some vollie's, if you only want to do it part time.


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## CalvinSmooth (Oct 24, 2012)

*PA School Path*

Out here in California, I'm working with CCT nurses and hopefully trying to get on PICU/NICU cars to work on Health care experience hours for applying.

ER tech is the next step in a couple months - but those are far and few between in SoCal :glare:

Got my BS though already, so thats one step out of the way!
What do you guys think about this plan?


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## Tigger (Oct 24, 2012)

CalvinSmooth said:


> Out here in California, I'm working with CCT nurses and hopefully trying to get on PICU/NICU cars to work on Health care experience hours for applying.
> 
> ER tech is the next step in a couple months - but those are far and few between in SoCal :glare:
> 
> ...



I am banking on my time on a straight BLS truck will count towards patient contact hours, I don't really think that working on CCT truck will really set me apart all that much and since my company runs double medic that's sort of out of the question.


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## Brandon O (Oct 24, 2012)

Tigger said:


> I am banking on my time on a straight BLS truck will count towards patient contact hours, I don't really think that working on CCT truck will really set me apart all that much and since my company runs double medic that's sort of out of the question.



I've seen a few schools that don't count pure transfer work as patient care, and more that don't count volunteer time, but otherwise any ambulance time seems perfectly legitimate to me. In fact, although I certainly don't make these decisions, I think I'd be more impressed by somebody who's been running their own (BLS) calls than by someone who's mainly been assisting a higher level of care on ALS or CCT units. Nothing wrong with variety though, and in California you may not have a lot of options for work environments as a Basic. ED tech would be a great exposure to the hospital environment as well.

After a few years more or less dedicated to working BLS, I'm doing my PA apps now. 6/8 interview invites so far, two pending.


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## Ewok Jerky (Oct 24, 2012)

Pt contact hours are Pt contact hours (except volunteer, apparently).

CCT, P/B, or BLS, use your personal statement to highlight whatever experience you have.  Then play it up in your interview.  For example, I highlighted my CCT experience as being exposed to ICU Pts, and my experience on BLS as frustrating because of lack of any scope of practice and desire to do more.


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## EMT2PAC (Oct 25, 2012)

I think the title of this thread changed- the assistant is not capitalized. Unfortunately it still has the 's after physician. Can that be fixed? I didn't create it that way....


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## hmtadlock0806 (Oct 30, 2012)

I go to Campbell University and I am in the Pre Physician's Assistant program. I am about to enroll in the EMT-B course. I was told that CNA hours or EMS hours work. You can bring in your paycheck or like me I work on a volunteer station so I have to get a written letter from my Chief saying I worked so many hours and they would be counted.


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## EMT2PAC (Nov 1, 2012)

hmtadlock0806 said:


> I go to Campbell University and I am in the Pre Physician's Assistant program. I am about to enroll in the EMT-B course. I was told that CNA hours or EMS hours work. You can bring in your paycheck or like me I work on a volunteer station so I have to get a written letter from my Chief saying I worked so many hours and they would be counted.



No 's after Physician. In truth I think a better name is "Assistant Physician". Physician Assistant makes no sense.


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## JPINFV (Nov 1, 2012)

EMT2PAC said:


> No 's after Physician. In truth I think a better name is "Assistant Physician". Physician Assistant makes no sense.




"Assistant physician" makes no sense either since it implies that the person bearing the title is a physician. PAs, just like NPs, are not physicians. On the same note, that's why I disagree with the title "student physician" or "student doctor"


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## Brandon O (Nov 1, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> On the same note, that's why I disagree with the title "student physician" or "student doctor"



I suppose those titles would almost make more sense for a resident.


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## JPINFV (Nov 1, 2012)

Brandon Oto said:


> I suppose those titles would almost make more sense for a resident.




Well, residents have at least graduated from medical school and can write orders. Also after PGY 1 (intern year), they're eligible for full licensure in most states, thus making them full on physicians.


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## Handsome Robb (Nov 1, 2012)

EMT2PAC said:


> No 's after Physician. In truth I think a better name is "Assistant Physician". Physician Assistant makes no sense.



They aren't "Assistant Physicians" though...like JP said, that implies they are licensed as a physician and they most definitely are not. I still don't understand what the issue is with "Physician's Assistant", does that not describe their job?

I think PA is a solid option but after my interaction with one tonight I'm not sure. "Have you given him anything?" "8 mg of decadron" " :blink: For an allergic reaction?" "For the anti-inflammatory effects".... "I like your thought process but there are some interventions that come way before steroids for a borderline anaphylactic reaction, sir...do you have IV access?" "No, I figured ya'll could do that." 

Thanks for the help chief.


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## Brandon O (Nov 1, 2012)

NVRob said:


> They aren't "Assistant Physicians" though...like JP said, that implies they are licensed as a physician and they most definitely are not. I still don't understand what the issue is with "Physician's Assistant", does that not describe their job?



Not really. Many consider it somewhat derogatory, similar to "ambulance driver" for EMS.

They "assist physicians" in a global sense of extending healthcare to more people than would otherwise have access to an MD. They don't "assist physicians" like a secretary does. While they're expected to have some sort of affiliation/supervisory/consulting relationship with a physician, depending on the state and the specifics this can be as nebulous as having them available via phone from a thousand miles away.

Most people agree the title of PA is fundamentally pretty trying due to this exact confusion (it gets mixed up with "medical assistant" all the time), but until someone decides to change it, so it goes. I believe one or two states are calling them "physician associates" now.


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## EMT2PAC (Nov 1, 2012)

Physician*'s* Assistant implies someone who assists a physician, like a secretary or administrative assistant. A PA is a licensed, quasi-autonomous medical professional who works at a level below that of a physician. Assistant Physician or Associate Physician makes it clear that the person isn't a full physician (aka Assistant/Associate Professor, Assistant/Associate Manager, Assistant/Associate Director, etc) but has duties and responsibilities that fall under the supervision of a full physician. It is logical and makes the most sense.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Nov 1, 2012)

I agree that the title of PA could use a change. People mix up Medical assistant and Physician assistant all the time. Whats the difference? well besides 6 years of education also the fact that medical assistant clearly describes the job in the title. It would be wise for PA's to be called something more accurate like Physician associate or physician extension(extender).

However if PA takes being called his/her official title derogatory, well tuff :censored::censored::censored::censored:, that is what your called  no one forced you to go to PA school haha, work on changing it man

I got a soft spot for PA's and I think a lot of us in EMS do, unless of course your working towards M.D. or NP ;-)


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## Ewok Jerky (Nov 1, 2012)

I wish people would stop worrying what they are called, what does it really At the end of the day? You do your job, you get paid. Stop worrying!


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## ExpatMedic0 (Nov 1, 2012)

What about if we called you :censored:? Would you still quietly collect your pay check with a smile on your face? I think words can be powerful, I also think people should take pride in there work. If the title does directly easily reflect to the public and patients of the persons job I SEE NO HARM in changing it? Would you not agree?


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## EMT2PAC (Nov 1, 2012)

schulz said:


> What about if we called you :censored:? Would you still quietly collect your pay check with a smile on your face? I think words can be powerful, I also think people should take pride in there work. If the title does directly easily reflect to the public and patients of the persons job I SEE NO HARM in changing it? Would you not agree?



Good point. Still doesn't fix the fact that the admins changed the title of this thread....


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## Brandon O (Nov 1, 2012)

schulz said:


> However if PA takes being called his/her official title derogatory, well tuff $hit, that is what your called  no one forced you to go to PA school haha, work on changing it man



Right... but in most official contexts, such as the relevant professional organizations and legal texts, it's "physician" not "physician's."

Whether all of this amounts to a hill of beans in the grand scheme of things is another matter, but wars have been fought over names, so I figure we might as well respect the fine points we're aware of. Can't fault anybody the first time, but after that...


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## hmtadlock0806 (Nov 1, 2012)

beano said:


> I wish people would stop worrying what they are called, what does it really At the end of the day? You do your job, you get paid. Stop worrying!


See I absolutely love this! You decided to go to school to be a PA nobody forced you to. You know what you do and at the end of the day you get paid for it. Stop complaining about your title. I also don't appreciate somebody correcting me...Physician's assistant is correct as well! Seems like you would be old enough to deal with these things in life and not like a 5 year old...just my opinion tho.


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## Aidey (Nov 1, 2012)

Not to nit pick, but Physician*'s* Assistant is not correct as well. It is simply a common misnomer.


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## Tigger (Nov 1, 2012)

hmtadlock0806 said:


> See I absolutely love this! You decided to go to school to be a PA nobody forced you to. You know what you do and at the end of the day you get paid for it. Stop complaining about your title. I also don't appreciate somebody correcting me...Physician's assistant is correct as well! Seems like you would be old enough to deal with these things in life and not like a 5 year old...just my opinion tho.



When you're wrong, you get corrected. If you can't accept that, medicine may not be a great fit for you. 

Even your own college calls it a Physician Assistant, as do other luminaries like the Bureau of Labor...


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## VFlutter (Nov 1, 2012)

EMT2PAC said:


> Assistant Physician or Associate Physician makes it clear that the person isn't a full physician (aka Assistant/Associate Professor, Assistant/Associate Manager, Assistant/Associate Director, etc) but has duties and responsibilities that fall under the supervision of a full physician. It is logical and makes the most sense.



When I hear assistant or associate Physician I think of a _* Physician *_. Just like an Associate professor is still a professor. And in most places an assistant manager is still a.....manager. And so on. I personally do not think that is the most logical title to use.


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## JPINFV (Nov 1, 2012)

schulz said:


> What about if we called you :censored:? Would you still quietly collect your pay check with a smile on your face? I think words can be powerful, I also think people should take pride in there work. If the title does directly easily reflect to the public and patients of the persons job I SEE NO HARM in changing it? Would you not agree?




What if we called physician assistants physician assistants? Getting into a field and then complaining about the name is like moving next to an airport and complaining about the noise. What were you expecting?


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## EMT2PAC (Nov 1, 2012)

ChaseZ33 said:


> When I hear assistant or associate Physician I think of a _* Physician *_. Just like an Associate professor is still a professor. And in most places an assistant manager is still a.....manager. And so on. I personally do not think that is the most logical title to use.



That would be, however, incorrect. An Assistant Manager is not a full manager. An Associate Professor is not a full professor. An Assistant Physician is not a full physician. The words "Physician Assistant" don't make any sense, but the name clearly is not "Physician*'s* Assistant" and has never been such.


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## JPINFV (Nov 1, 2012)

EMT2PAC said:


> Physician*'s* Assistant implies someone who assists a physician, like a secretary or administrative assistant. A PA is a licensed, quasi-autonomous medical professional who works at a level below that of a physician. Assistant Physician or Associate Physician makes it clear that the person isn't a full physician (aka Assistant/Associate Professor, Assistant/Associate Manager, Assistant/Associate Director, etc) but has duties and responsibilities that fall under the supervision of a full physician. It is logical and makes the most sense.




As long as the last, dominant word is "physician" then it isn't clear. An assistant physician is the other physician helping out the primary physician. An associate physician is the other physicians at the practice group or hospital. A physician assistant is not a physician, and thus can not be a ____ physician.


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## EMT2PAC (Nov 1, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> What if we called physician assistants physician assistants? Getting into a field and then complaining about the name is like moving next to an airport and complaining about the noise. What were you expecting?




This only makes sense when complaining about scope, not nomenclature. PAs are very happy with their scope of practice and went into the profession knowing their limitations. The nomenclature, however, makes no sense. Did you know that Yale's PA program calls them "Physician *Associate*"? http://medicine.yale.edu/pa/index.aspx


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## JPINFV (Nov 1, 2012)

EMT2PAC said:


> That would be, however, incorrect. An Assistant Manager is not a full manager. An Associate Professor is not a full professor. An Assistant Physician is not a full physician. The words "Physician Assistant" don't make any sense, but the name clearly is not "Physician*'s* Assistant" and has never been such.




An assistant manager is still a level of management. An associate professor is still a level of professorship. A physician assistant is, however, not a physician, or even a level of physician. To compare "assistant manager vs general manager" in terms of physicians would best be similar to "resident physician vs attending physician" since a resident and an attending are both levels of physicians.


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## EMT2PAC (Nov 1, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> As long as the last, dominant word is "physician" then it isn't clear. An assistant physician is the other physician helping out the primary physician. An associate physician is the other physicians at the practice group or hospital. A physician assistant is not a physician, and thus can not be a ____ physician.



Incorrect. Another physician who is consulting or helping on a case is a _colleague_.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Nov 1, 2012)

maybe you guys should take this over to the PA forum haha your cracking me up :rofl:


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## JPINFV (Nov 1, 2012)

EMT2PAC said:


> This only makes sense when complaining about scope, not nomenclature. PAs are very happy with their scope of practice and went into the profession knowing their limitations. The nomenclature, however, makes no sense. Did you know that Yale's PA program calls them "Physician *Associate*"? http://medicine.yale.edu/pa/index.aspx




"_Physician_ *Associate*" and "*Associate* _Physician_" are not the same term.


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## EMT2PAC (Nov 1, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> An assistant manager is still a level of management. An associate professor is still a level of professorship. A physician assistant is, however, not a physician, or even a level of physician. To compare "assistant manager vs general manager" in terms of physicians would best be similar to "resident physician vs attending physician" since a resident and an attending are both levels of physicians.



A level of physician? Perhaps. PAs certainly act in a manner similar to physician. This is why they are issued licensed from the _medical board_. They are a level of medical professional who work under and supervision of a full physician, just like an assistant manager, assistant professor, etc. They are not a _full_ physician, but certainly are assistant/associate physicians.


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## JPINFV (Nov 1, 2012)

EMT2PAC said:


> Incorrect. Another physician who is consulting or helping on a case is a _colleague_.



There are multiple ways to describe the partnership between physicians depending on said partnership. However, the term "associate" does draw professional equivalence when used before a word.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Nov 1, 2012)

http://www.physicianassistantforum.com/forums/forum.php


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## VFlutter (Nov 1, 2012)

EMT2PAC said:


> That would be, however, incorrect. An Assistant Manager is not a full manager. An Associate Professor is not a full professor. An Assistant Physician is not a full physician. The words "Physician Assistant" don't make any sense, but the name clearly is not "Physician*'s* Assistant" and has never been such.



I am not sure why I am even arguing this but why not...

An associate professor is in fact a professor. They must meet all of the educational requirements outlined for that title. They are underneath a more experienced senior "Full" professor but that they are still a professor none the less. It does not matter what you put in front of the root word the root word still has a specific meaning. 

"There are typically three ranks for faculty within U.S. higher education institutions: Assistant Professor, Associate Professor, and Full Professor. Promotion from one to the next involves a formal process of evaluation of the faculty member's body of work. Typically, faculty have one shot at getting promoted to Associate, often at the same time that they are being evaluation for tenure, and usually, they must do so at the end of their probationary period."


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## EMT2PAC (Nov 1, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> "_Physician_ *Associate*" and "*Associate* _Physician_" are not the same term.



True. Physician Associate, like Physician Assistant, makes no sense. It's not proper English and is much too easily confused with Medical Assistant or Administrative Assistant. Assistant/Associate Physician is someone who has training and responsibility similar but inferior to that of a full physician.


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## EMT2PAC (Nov 1, 2012)

ChaseZ33 said:


> I am not sure why I am even arguing this but why not...
> 
> An associate professor is in fact a professor. They must meet all of the educational requirements outlined for that title. They are underneath a more experienced senior "Full" professor but that they are still a professor none the less. It does not matter what you put in front of the root word the root word still has a specific meaning.



The root word is conjugated and modified by the specific epithet.


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## JPINFV (Nov 1, 2012)

EMT2PAC said:


> True. Physician Associate, like Physician Assistant, makes no sense. It's not proper English and is much too easily confused with Medical Assistant or Administrative Assistant. Assistant/Associate Physician is someone who has training and responsibility similar but inferior to that of a full physician.




So a surgeon who is a first assist in a surgery is not an inferior surgeon?


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## EMT2PAC (Nov 1, 2012)

schulz said:


> http://www.physicianassistantforum.com/forums/forum.php



Good point. Minimally, can the moderators/administrators/supervisors here please change the name of this thread to exclude the *'s*. I created the thread sans 's but they added it in at some point.


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## EMT2PAC (Nov 1, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> So a surgeon who is a first assist in a surgery is not an inferior surgeon?



They are a colleague who in that case is filling the role of first assist, assuming they are a fully trained and boarded surgeon.


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## VFlutter (Nov 1, 2012)

EMT2PAC said:


> The root word is conjugated and modified by the specific epithet.



The average patient is not an English major but rather the majority read and understand at the high school level or below. If you introduced yourself as "assistant physician" I bet that the vast majority would think that you are a physician. 

It sounds like some want the physician title without going through the work of med school. I would not consider PA a "level of physician"


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## EMT2PAC (Nov 1, 2012)

ChaseZ33 said:


> The average patient is not an English major but rather the majority read and understand at the high school level or below. If you introduced yourself as "assistant physician" I bet that the vast majority would think that you are a physician.
> 
> It sounds like some want the physician title without going through the work of med school.



Is it better to have the name "Physician Assistant" where the 'assistant' part might not be heard? The more appropriate name, and the one that those who advocate for a clear and unambiguous difference in the title, should be Assistant/Associate Physician. If the first words out of a PA's mouth is "Physician" then the patient is unlikely to hear the rest.


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## Tigger (Nov 1, 2012)

Please enlighten us further.


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## EMT2PAC (Nov 1, 2012)

Tigger said:


> Please enlighten us further.



Sure! About what?


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## VFlutter (Nov 1, 2012)

EMT2PAC said:


> Is it better to have the name "Physician Assistant" where the 'assistant' part might not be heard? The more appropriate name, and the one that those who advocate for a clear and unambiguous difference in the title, should be Assistant/Associate Physician. If the first words out of a PA's mouth is "Physician" then the patient is unlikely to hear the rest.



Or how about get rid of "physician" all together and think of a different title. Like "Awesome Medical Dude"


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## EMT2PAC (Nov 1, 2012)

ChaseZ33 said:


> Or how about get rid of "physician" all together and think of a different title. Like "Awesome Medical Dude"



Heh.


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## VFlutter (Nov 1, 2012)

EMT2PAC said:


> Heh.



Actually, I think "Medical Practitioner" or "Assistant Practitioner" would work. Similar to Nurse Practitioner but still giving credit to your medical training or the fact that you are an assistant.


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## JPINFV (Nov 1, 2012)

EMT2PAC said:


> Is it better to have the name "Physician Assistant" where the 'assistant' part might not be heard? The more appropriate name, and the one that those who advocate for a clear and unambiguous difference in the title, should be Assistant/Associate Physician. If the first words out of a PA's mouth is "Physician" then the patient is unlikely to hear the rest.




Out of a two word title, if a word is going to be missed it's the first one, not the last word that the patient hears. That's why it's generally not good to ask connected questions (i.e. don't ask "Do you have nausea, vomiting, or diarrhea?" Ask each one separately).


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## JPINFV (Nov 1, 2012)

ChaseZ33 said:


> Actually, I think "Medical Practitioner" or "Assistant Practitioner" would work. Similar to Nurse Practitioner but still giving credit to your medical training or the fact that you are an assistant.




"Assistant practitioner" might work. The problem with "medical practitioner" (i.e. one who practices medicine) is that it's already describes the person who practices medicine... as in the physician. Can we pick a name that doesn't involve PAs masquerading as physicians? After all, we've already have to deal with the noctor impersonators.


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## EMT2PAC (Nov 1, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> "Assistant practitioner" might work. The problem with "medical practitioner" (i.e. one who practices medicine) is that it's already describes the person who practices medicine... as in the physician. Can we pick a name that doesn't involve PAs masquerading as physicians? After all, we've already have to deal with the noctor impersonators.



RNs don't practice nursing? They would very vocally beg to differ.


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## EMT2PAC (Nov 1, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> Out of a two word title, if a word is going to be missed it's the first one, not the last word that the patient hears. That's why it's generally not good to ask connected questions (i.e. don't ask "Do you have nausea, vomiting, or diarrhea?" Ask each one separately).



False.


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## VFlutter (Nov 1, 2012)

EMT2PAC said:


> RNs don't practice nursing? They would very vocally beg to differ.



Huh? I lost you on that one

I noticed your are an AEMT. Do you call yourself a medic?


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## EMT2PAC (Nov 1, 2012)

ChaseZ33 said:


> Huh? I lost you on that one
> 
> I noticed your are an AEMT. Do you call yourself a medic?



No, I'm an AEMT. Are you?


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## VFlutter (Nov 1, 2012)

EMT2PAC said:


> No, I'm an AEMT. Are you?



Nope, just curious. I am just a basic


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## socalmedic (Nov 1, 2012)

I am just a paramedic and I call myself a basic...:sad: 

not sure how that plays into this rant, but I am sure you three will figure something out.


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## JPINFV (Nov 1, 2012)

EMT2PAC said:


> RNs don't practice nursing? They would very vocally beg to differ.




Nursing is nursing, not medicine. In a clinical environment, a "doctor" is the person who practices medicine. Even PhDs in the US aren't going to be called "doctor" in the ICU.


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## socalmedic (Nov 1, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> Nursing is nursing, not medicine.



+1, this guy agrees.


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## JPINFV (Nov 1, 2012)

EMT2PAC said:


> False.




So just how much experience do you actually have?


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## EMT2PAC (Nov 1, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> So just how much experience do you actually have?



Only about ten years. Not too much.


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## JPINFV (Nov 1, 2012)

EMT2PAC said:


> Only about ten years. Not too much.




Yet you've never asked a stacked question only to have the patient only answer the last part?


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## EMT2PAC (Nov 1, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> Yet you've never asked a stacked question only to have the patient only answer the last part?



Huh?


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## lightsandsirens5 (Nov 1, 2012)

Let's please get back on topic here. It's strayed do far it is barely recognizable.


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