# EMT #1 Surprising Minimum-Wage Job



## EMSLaw (Sep 13, 2009)

Discussed so often on this thread as to not be news:



> 1. Emergency Medical Technician (EMT)
> 
> Bottom 10% earn: $8.79 per hour
> U.S. median salary: $11.41 per hour
> ...



The full article is here.


----------



## JPINFV (Sep 13, 2009)

My one and only question in terms of the article is if they are combining basics and paramedics (pretty likely in my opinion). Everything else in regards to this is going to be based on supply and demand and people arguing that we should be paid more 'because we're special' (and lack an understanding of basic economics).


----------



## EMSLaw (Sep 13, 2009)

They don't give the basis for the data at all, other than to say it came from this payscale.com.

So, feel free to take it with a grain of salt.  I just figured I'd pass it along, since it was on the front page of Yahoo! this evening.


----------



## daedalus (Sep 13, 2009)

Sorry, there is no room for improvement in wages for those who have a 120 hour education.


----------



## Dominion (Sep 13, 2009)

Suprising for the public joe schmoe?  Probably.  Suprising for us?  Not so much.  Pretty much what daedalus said.  I know EMT schools out there DO exist that go beyond the ciriculum but it's the common majority that drags it down.


----------



## medic417 (Sep 13, 2009)

They also probably include the $0 people that give their services away for free.


----------



## DV_EMT (Sep 13, 2009)

daedalus said:


> Sorry, there is no room for improvement in wages for those who have a 120 hour education.




true... but I had 0 hours for my pharmacy technician licence (except from working as a clerk in a pharmacy) and I passed my boards and make 2-3 time the amount of an EMT... with 0 hours


----------



## daedalus (Sep 13, 2009)

DV_EMT said:


> true... but I had 0 hours for my pharmacy technician licence (except from working as a clerk in a pharmacy) and I passed my boards and make 2-3 time the amount of an EMT... with 0 hours



That little loophole was closed in 2005, and now becoming a pharm tech requires a degree or completion of a pharm tech program.


----------



## medic417 (Sep 13, 2009)

daedalus said:


> That little loophole was closed in 2005, and now becoming a pharm tech requires a degree or completion of a pharm tech program.



Not in all states.


----------



## subliminal1284 (Sep 14, 2009)

daedalus said:


> Sorry, there is no room for improvement in wages for those who have a 120 hour education.



Dude that is no argument, many jobs with no prior education whatsoever besides a high school diploma are making quite a bit more than basics


----------



## JPINFV (Sep 14, 2009)

How many of those jobs have as many people trying to get into it as EMS. Sure, janitors and garbage men probably make more than most EMT-Bs, but most people don't find their calling in those fields.


----------



## daedalus (Sep 14, 2009)

subliminal1284 said:


> Dude that is no argument, many jobs with no prior education whatsoever besides a high school diploma are making quite a bit more than basics



As JP said, simple supply and demand. Lots of people want the cool EMT job while very little people want to clean school bathrooms. Employers can set wages low because there are hundreds of EMTs in the local area gunning for one or two spots. 

Again, this goes back to education. Even if you do not believe that EMTs need fancy book learning, it is advantageous for your own financial future to advocate tougher entry requirements to EMT programs and more rigorous coursework and testing. This will create less EMTs and more demand, driving wages higher. Yes, I have selfish reasons for wanting EMT school to be a lot harder, but my over riding reason is better patient care.


----------



## EDAC (Sep 14, 2009)

daedalus said:


> Sorry, there is no room for improvement in wages for those who have a 120 hour education.



I am going to guess that you are young and have very little life experience, based on your statement. There are many, many jobs/careers that require less education and provide much better wages, and don't have the responsibility the EMT has. 

I can only speak for myself, but I don't believe this is a profession that someone gets into for the money, there are too many easier and better ways to make money. Similiar to hospice or special education teachers, this is a career one chooses for the benefit of their fellow man/woman. Knowing the pay and work load, no one in thier right mind would jump into a job/career like this for the money.


----------



## Aidey (Sep 14, 2009)

EDAC said:


> I can only speak for myself, but I don't believe this is a profession that someone gets into for the money, there are too many easier and better ways to make money. Similar to hospice or special education teachers, this is a career one chooses for the benefit of their fellow man/woman. Knowing the pay and work load, no one in their right mind would jump into a job/career like this for the money.



In that same vein, per MSN a bachelors degree in social work is one of the lowest paying degrees a college student can get. Sure, they can get a masters degree and earn more, but entry level is a bachelors. Similar to a teaching degree. More education does not always equal higher wages. 

I'm not weighing in on the should EMTs have more education, or should they be paid more. I'm simply pointing out that increased education does not always mean someone will make a fantastic wage. Neither does a high demand. Social workers are in high demand, but that doesn't mean they make any higher wages.


----------



## daedalus (Sep 14, 2009)

EDAC said:


> I am going to guess that you are young and have very little life experience, based on your statement. There are many, many jobs/careers that require less education and provide much better wages, and don't have the responsibility the EMT has.
> 
> I can only speak for myself, but I don't believe this is a profession that someone gets into for the money, there are too many easier and better ways to make money. Similiar to hospice or special education teachers, this is a career one chooses for the benefit of their fellow man/woman. Knowing the pay and work load, no one in thier right mind would jump into a job/career like this for the money.


Negative, ghostrider. I am quite well experienced in EMS systems both in California and around the US. I have worked in retail, food service, and public health in addition to EMS in my lifetime, and I am a full time college student close to applying to medical school.

I have a pretty extensive knowledge of EMS in the southern California area and the supply and demand of EMTs here and elsewhere. There are literally thousands of EMTs in the greater Los Angeles metropolitan area and very few open positions right now. Every semester, even more EMTs throw themselves into the pool of applicants. For every EMT employed around here and most of the country, there may be hundreds ready to replace him. Employee termination  and job turnover is higher than ever and wages are very low. Why pay an 18-24 year old EMT (average age of an EMT in LA) anything more than minimum wage when plenty more would kill for his job while waiting to get hired by a fire department? In contrast, few people wish to take jobs like sanitation or janitor, so wages are slightly higher to attract applicants. Also, EMTs have very little education or responsibility. The only standard of care an EMT has to worry about is failing to provide oxygen or driving without due regard. 

Also, before you make assumptions into why people are in this "profession", you should get some experience as an EMS provider under your belt. Most of my co-workers do not have such idealistic motivations and see EMS as poop work until they get to fight fires. 

You may want to provide proof of your assumptions of me before posting them. If you have any questions I will be happy to answer them.


----------



## EDAC (Sep 14, 2009)

daedalus said:


> Negative, ghostrider. I am quite well experienced in EMS systems both in California and around the US. I have worked in retail, food service, and public health in addition to EMS in my lifetime, and I am a full time college student close to applying to medical school.
> 
> I have a pretty extensive knowledge of EMS in the southern California area and the supply and demand of EMTs here and elsewhere. There are literally thousands of EMTs in the greater Los Angeles metropolitan area and very few open positions right now. Every semester, even more EMTs throw themselves into the pool of applicants. For every EMT employed around here and most of the country, there may be hundreds ready to replace him. Employee termination  and job turnover is higher than ever and wages are very low. Why pay an 18-24 year old EMT (average age of an EMT in LA) anything more than minimum wage when plenty more would kill for his job while waiting to get hired by a fire department? In contrast, few people wish to take jobs like sanitation or janitor, so wages are slightly higher to attract applicants. Also, EMTs have very little education or responsibility. The only standard of care an EMT has to worry about is failing to provide oxygen or driving without due regard.
> 
> ...



You sure take things the wrong way, my observation was in no way a knock on you personally. Contrary to many persons beliefs, there is nothing wrong with being young or inexperienced, they are just a fact of life for many people.

I was responding to your comment in regard to education and wages, which I know from experience are not accurate. 

This is not a court of law so I do not have any burden of proof, I made and observation and stand by that, right or wrong. Given that you did not directly addres that statement, I am probably correct, I would assume late twenties to very early thirties, but it does not really matter, I made an observation and really do not care in actuality, it is, what it is, an observation, nothing more, nothing less.

Your work and ambition in pursuing your career goals are commendable, and you should be proud of yourself for all of your hard work and determination. I am not, nor was I questioning your experience in EMS, again, it is what it is, and was never in question by me in any way. 

I wish you all the best in your endeavours, and hope that you reach all of the goals that you have set for yourself. 

The only persons opinion you should be concerned with is the one who looks back at you in the mirror every morning, because that my friend, is in the end the only one that truely matters.


----------



## daedalus (Sep 14, 2009)

Than I am not sure I understand your earlier statement. I am choosing not to reveal my age for privacy reasons (I live in a smaller community and have come across several people here from the same area). However, it is safe to same I am younger. I replied to your earlier post because I believe it is important to inform people of the harsh realities of EMS at this time for its providers. 

My views are summed up with my belief that EMTs have not shown any reason to be paid above the level they are at the moment. The free market supports my statement. If it was difficult to become an EMT, difficult to recruit EMTs, or there was a shortage, wages would be higher. I will also point out that I advocate for increased education and competency for the EMT and Paramedic, and I do hope that wage increase does follow eventually.

I understand that to the outsider (not saying you are) or to the general public, our wages seem artificially low. And certainly compared to jobs that require no formal education, it seems unfair. The reasons and realities of wages in EMS will become all to apparent to you once you become employed at a private EMS provider. 

Anyways, thank you for the kind comments. I am just attempting to explain why, from my own experience, I do not believe in wage increases for EMTs at the moment.


----------



## EDAC (Sep 14, 2009)

Just for clarification, my statement was that wages are not always consumate with a level of education. Some jobs require less or similar hours and the earning potential is in some cases limited only by the drive and work ethic of the worker. 

We are however not at odds with the last paragraph of your most recent post. The one thing I did learn in the EMT-B course I just completed, is that a better fundemental foundation is necessary for a better understanding of the course ciriculum. The EMT-B course just barely scratches the surface of what is needed to become a more proficient provider. Just like anything else the determination of the student is will dictate how far they will go in the EMS field, some will choose the path of least resistance and others will challange themselves to become better providers. Unfortunately the wages will be determined by those who choose the easy way, we always seem to gravitate towards the least common denominator. Perhaps if those like you and others here who advocate for better education persist, we can weed out those who seek the easy way into the profession, and attract those who truely wish to become the best most proficient provider they can be, for the sake of the patient, who deserve a competent well rounded provider.


----------



## daedalus (Sep 14, 2009)

EDAC said:


> Just for clarification, my statement was that wages are not always consumate with a level of education. Some jobs require less or similar hours and the earning potential is in some cases limited only by the drive and work ethic of the worker.
> 
> We are however not at odds with the last paragraph of your most recent post. The one thing I did learn in the EMT-B course I just completed, is that a better fundemental foundation is necessary for a better understanding of the course ciriculum. The EMT-B course just barely scratches the surface of what is needed to become a more proficient provider. Just like anything else the determination of the student is will dictate how far they will go in the EMS field, some will choose the path of least resistance and others will challange themselves to become better providers. Unfortunately the wages will be determined by those who choose the easy way, we always seem to gravitate towards the least common denominator. Perhaps if those like you and others here who advocate for better education persist, we can weed out those who seek the easy way into the profession, and attract those who truely wish to become the best most proficient provider they can be, for the sake of the patient, who deserve a competent well rounded provider.


And I agree. Doing away with the two week wonder EMTs and the 3 month wonder paramedics, and requiring at least an introductory college background in physical and biological science before enrolling into EMS programs will do a lot to weed out our bad apples, and hopefully create a situation where our level of respect as providers and wages increase. 

It is clear that employers around here are never going to take that first step of increasing the money, so perhaps we have to take this into our own hands and make it harder to become an EMT. As rid/ryder has said in the past, most other healthcare profession schools protect their field.


----------



## EMSLaw (Sep 14, 2009)

daedalus said:


> And I agree. Doing away with the two week wonder EMTs and the 3 month wonder paramedics, and requiring at least an introductory college background in physical and biological science before enrolling into EMS programs will do a lot to weed out our bad apples, and hopefully create a situation where our level of respect as providers and wages increase.
> 
> It is clear that employers around here are never going to take that first step of increasing the money, so perhaps we have to take this into our own hands and make it harder to become an EMT. As rid/ryder has said in the past, most other healthcare profession schools protect their field.



2 week EMTs?  Wow.  Even the full-time courses around here run for at least a month, so I do find that shocking (though if you stick to the bare minimum curriculum, I suppose 2 55-hour weeks is possible, if far from laudible).  

One thing that can be said for New Jersey's system is that it keeps the number of paramedics, at least, low.  However, because the supply of paramedics is completely at the whim of how many people the MICU programs decide to sponsor, I don't think the reduced supply has lead to a notable increase in wages.

While I agree that more education should lead to higher salaries, I remind you there are plenty of doctors, lawyers, and other highly educated professionals out there not making all that much more than Joe Paramedic, who has two years, maybe, of post-secondary education, as opposed to seven or eight or more years.

The education scheme in healthcare doesn't make all that much sense sometimes.  You need a master's degree to be an athletic trainer, and an associate's degree (maybe, if your state doesn't still have diploma schools) to be a nurse.  Although maybe nursing is an outlier, because the shortage has kept the base credential from going to BSN, at least in my state, despite the fact that NY went to BSN-required almost twenty years ago, IIRC.  Heck, my local community college has a five-year waiting list for ASN programs - in that time, you could go undergrad and be most of the way to an MSN.

Anyway, the point of all this is - more education for prehospital care providers is a good thing.  Higher salaries are also a good thing.  Merely increasing the educational requirements may not necessarily lead to higher salaries, however.


----------



## VentMedic (Sep 14, 2009)

> While I agree that more education should lead to higher salaries, I remind you there are plenty of doctors, lawyers, and other highly educated professionals out there not making all that much more than Joe Paramedic, who has two years, maybe, of post-secondary education, as opposed to seven or eight or more years.


 
But, they do have a choice.  A lawyer could choose to work for a law firm representing wealthy drug dealers and make serious money or they could work for a nonprofit.   Paramedics rarely have that choice.   Even with just a two year degree many are limited in their choices in a lot of professions and not just health care.  It doesn't have to be about the money but rather about the opportunities.    Why do you think most of us start planning at an early age to see that our kids get at least a 4 year college education?  

People who work in education are also a great example.  The Masters degree is highly sort after even when some know their salary may not increase significantly.   However, if the opportunity arises for a job in some other area of education, they are prepared as well as having the satisfaction of being better prepared to teach in their current position.  What amazes me is there are many Paramedics who still don't understand how a college level A&P or pharmacology class could benefit them.   Some would rather just believe "lido numbs the heart" and "CPAP pushes lung water" as there can't possibly be any more than that to it. 




EMSLaw said:


> The education scheme in healthcare doesn't make all that much sense sometimes. You need a master's degree to be an athletic trainer, and an associate's degree (maybe, if your state doesn't still have diploma schools) to be a nurse. Although maybe nursing is an outlier, because the shortage has kept the base credential from going to BSN, at least in my state, despite the fact that NY went to BSN-required almost twenty years ago, IIRC. Heck, my local community college has a five-year waiting list for ASN programs - in that time, you could go undergrad and be most of the way to an MSN.


 
The higher education has allowed Athletic Trainers to expand their opportunities for employment when inturn gave them a chance to earn more and be more mobile.

Even though the states have not made the BSN the standard for minimum education, that doesn't mean employers can't.  In fact, the way many of the health professions started advancing was due to employers requiring higher education for entry since they realized there was a need for more than just a grad from a tech school mill.    For some professions, like Respirartory Therapy, well over 3/4 of those in the profession had a two year degree long before it became the standard.  

Nursing is now becoming very competitive.  Employers are looking not only at your years of education but also where you obtained it.  Mail-order RNs from places like Excelsior are rarely at the time of the line for a decent job regardless of whether you state allows them to be licensed or not.  Their clinical experience is shoddy at best even when they do take the additional hours.   



EMSLaw said:


> Anyway, the point of all this is - more education for prehospital care providers is a good thing. Higher salaries are also a good thing. Merely increasing the educational requirements may not necessarily lead to higher salaries, however.


 
Again, have you not seen what higher education has done for the other health care professions?  Do you understand what it means to petition the insurances for reimbursement based on patient benefit?    

I personally like the advancement and reimbursement model Physical Therapy has created within their prefession.  Even RNs are envious of the wages and perks this group is commanding largely due to their expertise with the reimbursement legislation.   I also said "commanding" and not "demanding".   This has NOTHING to do with unions which in fact many professional health care providers are rarely part of as it hampers their own upward mobility in a rapidly advancing field of medicine.   

OT, SLP, and RT are other professions that must take an active look at the business model to gain reimbursement and make their fields worthy of notice.  If you don't have a quality product (educated people) to see the insurances, don't expect them to recognize the service you provide as "professional" and with that reimbursment scale.  RT is also petitioning for another level of reimbursement in another area outside of the hospital world for those with a Bachelors or Masters degree.  

Also when professional associations (again NOT unions) support each other, their effect is felt when it comes to legislation within the insurance world.   NPs and PAs are excellent examples as they found the opportunities could be plentiful if they worked together on certain issues rather than against each other as in the past with a few turf wars.  Now, if you read on their websites what they have accomplished, you would be amazed as they are moving forward to help with ED overcrowding.   They, as other healthcare professions (RT, nursing, PT, OT etc) have also been careful to choose their wording as "what we can do for patient care".  Unfortunately, the tone with those in EMS (and the FD) it has been what the people and patients should be doing for us.   EMS has not changed much for education minimums in 40 years and yet they still believe they are worth more while some are offering even less care to the patient than what was offered 40 years ago.


----------



## EMSLaw (Sep 14, 2009)

VentMedic, thank you for an interesting post.  I agree with basically all of what you've said.

The education minimums for EMS should go up.  But not because of higher pay, or at least not solely for that reason.  They should go up because that's what better patient care requires.  Otherwise, we might as well go back to the days of sending an ambulance attendant and MD intern out in a cadillac ambulance, or calling the local funeral home to do transports.  

Medicine as a whole seems to have gotten away from the tech school approach and towards higher levels of academic training.  Respiratory therapists, nurses, and a lot of other patient care providers have moved from diploma training or on-the-job experience to an Associates Degree or more.  Maybe we should be looking for the day when an Associate's Degree in Paramedicine is the entry-level EMS credential.  But to do that, and get the higher pay and greater respect that EMS professionals seek, you'd need to be able to point to specific ways in which patient care is improved by having a more educated pre-hospital provider.


----------



## DV_EMT (Sep 14, 2009)

daedalus said:


> That little loophole was closed in 2005, and now becoming a pharm tech requires a degree or completion of a pharm tech program.



Actually... that's incorrect. your thinking of the grandfather clause... yes its been done away with. I received my pharm tech licence in 2007. All it requires is a HS diploma (or GED) and passing the PTCB exam.. followed by a background check and payment to the state. Thats how i got mine

There are some ways to get a Pharm Tech in the state of CA that say you have to complete the course... however it is not mandatory that you take a ACPE course.


----------



## 46Young (Sep 14, 2009)

Vent, it's about time someone spoke about how the different healthcare professions actually further the profession and it's compensation after raising the bar on education. I've asked RidRyder and others several times here how they expect higher educational standards to change slaries, benefits, scope, etc without organization (not necessarily unions, I understand what you're saying). I've received no response until now.

So, how would you recommend EMS as a profession work to further the field and it's ensuing compensation after raising the educational requirements? What should we all be doing to help?


----------



## Aerin-Sol (Sep 14, 2009)

Nursing does have a low-education position: Certified Nursing Assistant. They take a course that's even shorter than an EMT class. 

I'm not an EMT professional and I haven't even started the class so my opinion may not be worth much, but I currently like the way the career is handled. I am glad that there is a relatively short, basic course that I can take to get an entry-level job. If I want to make a decent amount of money in the field, I'll become a paramedic or a flight nurse, positions that *do* require more education. It seems to me that that's the expectation of employeers as well. Why would someone who wants pre-hospital care to be their career just stay at the EMT-B level?


----------



## VentMedic (Sep 14, 2009)

Aerin-Sol said:


> Nursing does have a low-education position: Certified Nursing Assistant. They take a course that's even shorter than an EMT class.


 
Actually some states require many more hours than an EMT. In addition, their foundation makes them very flexible within a hospital system to add skills or to be used in many different areas.

Also, do you know how their worth is figured into the budget of a healthcare system? Healthcare is a very complex business. Once can not just say "I can take a BP" and expect the various insurances and funding sources to throw money at them. 




Aerin-Sol said:


> I'm not an EMT professional and I haven't even started the class so my opinion may not be worth much, but I currently like the way the career is handled. I am glad that there is a relatively short, basic course that I can take to get an entry-level job. If I want to make a decent amount of money in the field, *I'll become a paramedic or a flight nurse, positions that *do* require more education.* It seems to me that that's the expectation of employeers as well. Why would someone who wants pre-hospital care to be their career just stay at the EMT-B level?


 
That is not always true especially for the Paramedic. Often, like in the state of CA, as well as others, the RN is there for the complex patients and usually that position does require more experience and education. However, for the Paramedic you may find the ads still say 
*High School diploma or equivalent
*Paramedic Cert or license for that state
*ACLS with PALS recommended
*2 to 3 years of experience 

As well, some Flight companies often little more than a faster trip to a hospital. 

But you are correct it is usually left to the employer to make the requirements. 

Florida has also changed the wording in the statutes for some of its transport agency, medical director and personnel requirements. It will now want the receiving hospital of higher care to determine the appropriate level of transport for certain populations such as infants and babies. It will no longer let the EMS agency just say "We'll get them there by a real fast ride with inadequate staffing." Too many have taken patients they had no business touching. 



46Young said:


> So, how would you recommend EMS as a profession work to further the field and it's ensuing compensation after raising the educational requirements? What should we all be doing to help?


 
Since you are a union person this might be difficult to discuss with you. Unions do NOT promote a profession. A good insurance plan might provide peace of mind but it doesn't do much for you as a profesional Paramedic. My father was union while working the mines and had great insurance/paid etc but most of his co-workers barely had an eighth grade education. (Although I will say their first-aid education was by far superior to anything in the EMT-B courses today and it was just part of the job.)

It is the professional associations that have rallied for better professional recognition and reimbursement. They are also the ones who provide the data to hospitals when RTs, PTs and SLPs want a raise. Those unlucky enough to be covered by a union must wait for the contract to renegotiate. If RTs get their desired bills for higher education and reimbursement passed tomorrow, they will start working on implementing it instead of waiting 3 years for another contract to add an additional level.

Examples:

*RT*
http://www.aarc.org/

Advocacy
http://www.aarc.org/advocacy/

*PT*
http://www.apta.org//AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home

Advocacy
http://www.apta.org/AM/Template.cfm...ggedPageDisplay.cfm&TPLID=181&ContentID=57962

http://www.apta.org/AM/Template.cfm...aggedPageDisplay.cfm&TPLID=57&ContentID=12727

NP

http://www.aanp.org/AANPCMS2

PA

http://www.aapa.org/

OT

http://www.aota.org/

Radiology
https://www.asrt.org/

The things that all of these associations have in common:

* Their membership is promoted from the beginning of education by a student membership either included in tuition or offered at the dicount price.

* Employers may also offer membership as a "perk" or expect one the have it.

* Each state has a chapter and often with local chapters. 

* People are members regardless of their union status and they do NOT mix up what each can do and what the association can do when it comes to worth or value.

* Hospitals take pride in sponsoring someone to run for a position within the association at whatever level.

* Gives opportunities for research to be presented with grants available.

* The research can also be used to show proof of worth when it comes to reimbursement. "See, what we do works".


I was a Paramedic long before I became as RT. During the 1970s Florida was a leader in 2 year college programs for the Paramedic and they were encouraged even by the FDs. Nursing was a late bloomer and was just getting around to establishing the 2 year degree and telling the diploma programs to join forces with a college for some classes. At that time it was actually thought that the Paramedic would become a leader and example amongst the health care professions. RT was still OJT or a 1 year cert program. Radiology Technicians were sailing in the same boat as Respiratory. PT was just solidifying their Bachelors programs and looking towards a Masters in the future. SLP was still and infant. But along came this profession that has gotten a boost from a TV show and was the pearl of everyone's eyes including the public. 

But, along came greed and since the education foundation was not fully laid out, medic mills sprung up in the FDs and ambulance services. Everyone wanted to become part of this cool profession and FDs/ambulance owners saw they could capitalize on an abundance of labor with ease of entry. It was also when the 3 month medic grads came about who had little interest in medicine that the Paramedics like myself with a degree starting looking where we could grow as medical professionals. 

I also find the thread "how many have done this" rather amusing as the early Paramedics (includes Rid, myself and a few others here) did a lot more invasive procedures and were considered good at them or were at least well prepared by our education and training. There was also a different relationship with trust from the medical directors at that time. Now it seems the attitude is "here's some generic protocols and try not to kill anyone". The other thing about better educated Paramedics and other professionals is that when an "advanced skill" or some medication is no longer advocated because of evidence based findings, they don't whine "they took away our MAST" and consider it a punishment. They look at what is in the literature that works better. 

Watching other professions that have only been licensed for 20 years or less just sprint past the Paramedic has been disheartening. But, they learned from the mistakes nursing made and when they were challenged by nursing, they enlisted them as partners in healthcare rather than the enemy. When you only have a few thousand members and they have probably a million, you form a better plan of action.


----------



## Aerin-Sol (Sep 14, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Actually some states require many more hours than an EMT. In addition, their foundation makes them very flexible within a hospital system to add skills or to be used in many different areas.



Oh, sorry. I was just thinking of my state.



> Also, do you know how their worth is figured into the budget of a healthcare system? Healthcare is a very complex business. Once can not just say "I can take a BP" and expect the various insurances and funding sources to throw money at them.



I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that CNAs are valued more than EMS personnel?



> That is not always true especially for the Paramedic. Often, like in the state of CA, as well as others, the RN is there for the complex patients and usually that position does require more experience and education. However, for the Paramedic you may find the ads still say
> *High School diploma or equivalent
> *Paramedic Cert or license for that state
> *ACLS with PALS recommended
> *2 to 3 years of experience



Yeah, but don't you need to go to several hundred hours of class to get a paramedic license?


----------



## JPINFV (Sep 14, 2009)

In the grand scheme of things, 'several hundred hours' really isn't all that amount of time.


----------



## VentMedic (Sep 14, 2009)

Aerin-Sol said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that CNAs are valued more than EMS personnel?


 
When you compare what the EMT and the CNA each bring to patient care, the CNA could actually have more patient benefit in a broader sense and they also see more patients per shift than some EMTs seen in one or two months. CNAs also do many of the "skills" that EMTs do as well as having the opportunity to do more. If one just looked at some of the services provided in the back of a truck by EMTs, insurances might wonder why they are even reimbursing the ambulance service as much as they do.   The serivces of the CNA and other ancillary staff that don't get direct professional reimbursement is calculated based on total care and needs is covered by the charges for that unit or service.   This is similar to how some ambulances are also reimbursed when there is not a specific professional fee attached. Specialty services are the exception.




Aerin-Sol said:


> Yeah, but don't you need to go to *several hundred hours of class* to get a paramedic license?


 
This is the problem. Paramedic education is measured in hours rather than college credit and degrees. Several hundred or even a 1000 hours is not much considering nursing and RT may get that many hours or more in just their clinicals. PTs do post graduate internships with 1000s of hours.


----------



## subliminal1284 (Sep 14, 2009)

Again the excuse that there are just so many EMT's as the reason why wages are so low falls apart. Yeah no one may WANT the janitor job or the garbage man job but with the way things are right now with a high unemployment rate there are hundreds if not thousands of people who would be more than happy to work either one of those jobs just to have a job. Yet the wages for those jobs have not lowered.


----------



## Aerin-Sol (Sep 14, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> When you compare what the EMT and the CNA each bring to patient care, the CNA could actually have more patient benefit in a broader sense and they also see more patients per shift than some EMTs seen in one or two months. CNAs also do many of the "skills" that EMTs do as well as having the opportunity to do more. If one just looked at some of the services provided in the back of a truck by EMTs, insurances might wonder why they are even reimbursing the ambulance service as much as they do.   The serivces of the CNA and other ancillary staff that don't get direct professional reimbursement is calculated based on total care and needs is covered by the charges for that unit or service.   This is similar to how some ambulances are also reimbursed when there is not a specific professional fee attached. Specialty services are the exception.


 
Hmm. I was going to sign up for CNA classes but everyone on the student doctor forums derided it as "wiping old people's butts" and said EMT would be more interesting.



> This is the problem. Paramedic education is measured in hours rather than college credit and degrees. Several hundred or even a 1000 hours is not much considering nursing and RT may get that many hours or more in just their clinicals. PTs do post graduate internships with 1000s of hours.



I see what you're saying there.


----------



## VentMedic (Sep 14, 2009)

Aerin-Sol said:


> Hmm. I was going to sign up for CNA classes but everyone on the student doctor forums derided it as "wiping old people's butts" and said EMT would be more interesting.


 
CNAs definitely have their worth and those who make remarks such as that really have NO comprehension of patient care. 

You do realize that many of those on the "student doctor" forums are EMTs who believe they are now in medical school even though they haven't enrolled in college yet?


Healthcare is a business. College classes in a well designed degree program also help the students to see this. Healthcare is a very competitive business. Each profession must be flexible to fill new roles as medicine is constantly changing. The care the CNA gives if fundamental to any patient setting. They also have had to become very flexible as budget issues have placed them in various expanded duty roles or have moved them from one areas to another as reimbursement for services change. This is also why healthcare professions constantly monitor insurance and healthcare reform so they can assume or even let go of a few tradtionan "skills" or roles to assume others. Sometimes, the CNA may even be asked to take up the slack. 

Now, the EMT hasn't changed too much in 40 years. In fact their statutes were written to where they lack in flexibility. The same for the Paramedic. For this reason hospitals change the titles to ER Tech so that they can expand the roles of the EMT to suit the purpose if needed.  

Organizations, such as the FD, have taken on EMS with only a limited interest in expanding what most already deem to be "adequate" to get a patient to the hospital. In the 1960s that was okay but even at that, the systems first established in the FDs such as Miami were very different where intent of patient care was concerned when compared to a system like the Freedom House Ambulance Service.


----------



## Sasha (Sep 14, 2009)

> Hmm. I was going to sign up for CNA classes but everyone on the student doctor forums derided it as "wiping old people's butts" and said EMT would be more interesting.



I really hate reading stuff like this. "Wiping old people's butts" is part of the job, and no one is above doing that. I hate when people treat it with such contempt. I don't look forward to changing diapers (And yes, as an EMT I have changed diapers with a nurse or a CNA to help get the patient ready for transport.) but I don't bat an eyelash at it either. It's part of the job. It might even be you some day that requires changing.


----------



## Aerin-Sol (Sep 14, 2009)

Sasha said:


> I really hate reading stuff like this. "Wiping old people's butts" is part of the job, and no one is above doing that. I hate when people treat it with such contempt. I don't look forward to changing diapers (And yes, as an EMT I have changed diapers with a nurse or a CNA to help get the patient ready for transport.) but I don't bat an eyelash at it either. It's part of the job. It might even be you some day that requires changing.



I hope that was directed at the posters who said that and not at me specifically. =)

I don't have a problem with doing "gross" things but if *all* I am doing is changing dirty sheets and cleaning up body fluids (which is how those forums characterized it) I don't think that would help me as much as the things that EMTs do.


----------



## VentMedic (Sep 14, 2009)

Aerin-Sol said:


> I hope that was directed at the posters who said that and not at me specifically. =)
> 
> I don't have a problem with doing "gross" things but if *all* I am doing is changing dirty sheets and cleaning up body fluids (which is how those forums characterized it) I don't think that would help me as much as the things that EMTs do.


 
Do you even know what a CNA does or is capable of doing? Do you know how much patient contact they get on a daily basis? 

Now, do you know what an EMT does or doesn't do even when they do work for a 911 EMS company?


----------



## Sasha (Sep 14, 2009)

Aerin-Sol said:


> I hope that was directed at the posters who said that and not at me specifically. =)
> 
> I don't have a problem with doing "gross" things but if *all* I am doing is changing dirty sheets and cleaning up body fluids (which is how those forums characterized it) I don't think that would help me as much as the things that EMTs do.



It would help you more than driving an ambulance would.


----------



## JPINFV (Sep 14, 2009)

If you visit SDN, my advice is don't spend too much time in Pre-Allo.


----------



## Aerin-Sol (Sep 14, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Do you even know what a CNA does or is capable of doing? Do you know how much patient contact they get on a daily basis?
> 
> Now, do you know what an EMT does or doesn't do even when they do work for a 911 EMS company?



Yep, I looked up all of the low level (CNA, EMT-B, Phlebotomy, EKG tech) health care jobs.

I don't want to work for a 911 company; I want to be an ER Tech.


----------



## Sasha (Sep 14, 2009)

Aerin-Sol said:


> Yep, I looked up all of the low level (CNA, EMT-B, Phlebotomy, EKG tech) health care jobs.
> 
> I don't want to work for a 911 company; I want to be an ER Tech.



A CNA cert will better prepare you to become an ER tech than being an EMT would, also it would be easier for you to find a job as a CNA in an ER than an EMT.


----------



## Aerin-Sol (Sep 14, 2009)

Sasha said:


> A CNA cert will better prepare you to become an ER tech than being an EMT would, also it would be easier for you to find a job as a CNA in an ER than an EMT.



Most of the info I saw said that either EMT-B is preferred or having both is preferred and that CNAs are not wanted in the ER. 

And I don't really want to work as a CNA. I think EMT work would at least be interesting. If not, I'm only out $450 and a bunch of Saturdays I would have just spent paying videogames.


----------



## VentMedic (Sep 14, 2009)

Aerin-Sol said:


> Most of the info I saw said that either EMT-B is preferred or having both is preferred and that CNAs are not wanted in the ER.


 
You need to look again. I just at random pulled up 3 hospitals in Kentucky including St. Joseph's in Lexington and all had this:

Education: 
High School Diploma or GED. 
EMT Student or Nursing Student Required.
*State CNA Preferred.*
Experience:
Prior EMT/CNA or hospital experience preferred.
EMT student, Nursing Student, or CNA experience



Aerin-Sol said:


> And I don't really want to work as a CNA. I think EMT work would at least be interesting. If not, I'm only out $450 and a bunch of Saturdays I would have just spent paying videogames.


 
That's one way of looking at the EMT.


----------



## TransportJockey (Sep 14, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> You need to look again. I just at random pulled up 3 hospitals in Kentucky including St. Joseph's in Lexington and all had this:
> 
> Education:
> High School Diploma or GED.
> ...



I'll echo that that is what most local hospitals around here want. The only time an EMT gets preference is if he's a medic student or a medic already.


----------



## Aerin-Sol (Sep 14, 2009)

Clark Memorial: Previous experience as nurse aide, medical assistant, EMT or emergency room experience required. http://louisville.jobnewsusa.com/jobsh/1376508.aspx

Sts. Mary & Elizabeth: CNA training course preferred. Emergency experience preferred. http://www.abso.com/jobboard/Default.aspx?JobDetail=60933&JOBBOARDID=583


Those were the only two I could find quickly in Louisville.


----------



## Sasha (Sep 14, 2009)

Aerin-Sol said:


> Most of the info I saw said that either EMT-B is preferred or having both is preferred and that CNAs are not wanted in the ER.
> 
> And I don't really want to work as a CNA. I think EMT work would at least be interesting. If not, I'm only out $450 and a bunch of Saturdays I would have just spent paying videogames.



What do you think you will be doing as an ER Tech? An ER tech is just a CNA in the ER.. Your scope wont be any different than the next ER tech who holds a CNA cert just because you hold an EMT cert.

Also a "nurses aide" is a CNA, you brought information that conflicted your previous post.


----------



## medic417 (Sep 14, 2009)

Sasha said:


> What do you think you will be doing as an ER Tech? An ER tech is just a CNA in the ER.. Your scope wont be any different than the next ER tech who holds a CNA cert just because you hold an EMT cert.
> 
> Also a "nurses aide" is a CNA, you brought information that conflicted your previous post.



Sasha play nice with the new kid or you won't get your allowance.  Do you hear me young lady?


----------



## Sasha (Sep 14, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Sasha play nice with the new kid or you won't get your allowance.  Do you hear me young lady?



Oh no! Can I still borrow the car?


----------



## medic417 (Sep 14, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Oh no! Can I still borrow the car?



Nope your grounded.


----------



## Sasha (Sep 14, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Nope your grounded.



My grounded what?


----------



## medic417 (Sep 14, 2009)

Sasha said:


> My grounded what?



Your butt is grounded from going anywhere and any more attitude you will lose emtlife privileges.


----------



## Guardian Angel (Sep 14, 2009)

Wow, 

Reading through this thread is making me a little nervous:unsure:  I understand that the pay  rate is very low for EMT's, but, I didn't realize what an 'over saturated' field it is!:sad:

In order to 'beat out' the competition, what are employers looking for an an ideal canidate?

I know the answer isn't cut and dry, but, what have any of you 'now employed' EMTs come across during the hiring process, or, why do you feel you were hired over the next guy?

Thanks


----------



## medic417 (Sep 14, 2009)

Guardian Angel said:


> Wow,
> 
> In order to 'beat out' the competition, what are employers looking for an an ideal canidate?
> 
> ...



Experienced non tattooed professional Paramedics.


----------



## Guardian Angel (Sep 14, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Experienced non tattooed professional Paramedics.


 
Does this also go for the EMT-B?  I would assume so.

I will be graduating for class in December, and have a vast spectrum of 'Professional' experience ( many years as a CNA, Restorative Aide, Senior Sales Manager/Trainer of over 200 reps, Retail, office management etc...and of course my most recent occupation, Licensed Massage Therapist) This all includes longevity at each position.  

So, in essence, although I will be 'fresh' out of school/training, what would be the likelyhood of getting a position?


----------



## medic417 (Sep 14, 2009)

Guardian Angel said:


> Does this also go for the EMT-B?  I would assume so.
> 
> I will be graduating for class in December, and have a vast spectrum of 'Professional' experience ( many years as a CNA, Restorative Aide, Senior Sales Manager/Trainer of over 200 reps, Retail, office management etc...and of course my most recent occupation, Licensed Massage Therapist) This all includes longevity at each position.
> 
> So, in essence, although I will be 'fresh' out of school/training, what would be the likelyhood of getting a position?



We do not want experienced EMT's.  If you have been an EMT very long w/o getting into Paramedic degree program we consider that you may have some problems that we would prefer not to hire.  

Honestly you should immediately begin a Paramedic degree program.


----------



## Guardian Angel (Sep 14, 2009)

Medic417,

I am not an EMT-B yet.:blush:  I have just started classes/training to become an EMT-B.  I will be finished at the end of this December.


----------



## JPINFV (Sep 14, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Experienced non tattooed professional Paramedics.




Would you settle for at least a positive tooth to tattoo ratio?


----------



## Foxbat (Sep 14, 2009)

medic417 said:


> We do not want experienced EMT's.  If you have been an EMT very long w/o getting into Paramedic degree program we consider that you may have some problems that we would prefer not to hire.


I do not want to debate this topic, but I don't want Guardian Angel to have an impression that this is every employer's point of view. My EMS chief (paid paramedic), for example, would rather have somebody who had EMT experience before medic school; and the university where I will go for paramedic program (if I do) recommends prior experience as an EMT.


----------



## medic417 (Sep 14, 2009)

Foxbat said:


> I do not want to debate this topic, but I don't want Guardian Angel to have an impression that this is every employer's point of view. My EMS chief (paid paramedic), for example, would rather have somebody who had EMT experience before medic school.



There are exceptions to ever rule.


----------



## Foxbat (Sep 14, 2009)

medic417 said:


> There are exceptions to ever rule.


I don't know. On this forum "go straight to medic school" POV seems to be prevalent, but most medics I know recommend otherwise. Perhaps it depends on location.


----------



## medic417 (Sep 14, 2009)

Foxbat said:


> I don't know. On this forum "go straight to medic school" POV seems to be prevalent, but most medics I know recommend otherwise. Perhaps it depends on location.



Often those that do recommend delay do so because they did it that way and because that is the old tradition backed by no evidence of benefit.


----------



## Sasha (Sep 14, 2009)

Foxbat said:


> I don't know. On this forum "go straight to medic school" POV seems to be prevalent, but most medics I know recommend otherwise. Perhaps it depends on location.



Only out of shame that they didn't go straight to medic school!


----------



## Guardian Angel (Sep 14, 2009)

Foxbat said:


> I don't know. On this forum "go straight to medic school" POV seems to be prevalent, but most medics I know recommend otherwise. Perhaps it depends on location.


 
According to my Instructor, who is a Paramedic and a Fireman, he recommends that you work as an EMT-B for about a year before going to Paramedic School.   

I believe his reasoning for this is:

1) To make sure this is the career choice you thought it would be and is it for you.

and

2)  To gain a good amount of experience to help with your further training as a Paramedic.

I would like to reiterate that this is his opinion/recommendation and not a fact or rule/regulation.

In my state, Massachusetts, you can go straight to Paramedic School as soon as you are certified as an EMT-B.

In my region, the EMT-I are not really recognized, so it's EMT-B to Paramedic.


----------



## JPINFV (Sep 14, 2009)

What, exactly, does him being a fire fighter have anything to do about his reccomendation about your prehospital medical education? It's like a physician suggesting schooling to a plumber.


----------



## medic417 (Sep 14, 2009)

Guardian Angel said:


> According to my Instructor, who is a Paramedic and a Fireman, he recommends that you work as an EMT-B for about a year before going to Paramedic School.
> 
> I believe his reasoning for this is:
> 
> ...



Just ask yourself if this is the best way why do Doctors just become doctors rather than having a required short training and try a year then continue?  

They don't.  They get the education then treat the patients.  that is the way EMS should be.


----------



## VentMedic (Sep 14, 2009)

Guardian Angel said:


> According to my Instructor, who is a Paramedic and a Fireman, he recommends that you work as an EMT-B for about a year before going to Paramedic School.


 


Foxbat said:


> I do not want to debate this topic, but I don't want Guardian Angel to have an impression that this is every employer's point of view. My EMS chief (paid paramedic), for example, would rather have somebody who had EMT experience before medic school; and the university where I will go for paramedic program (if I do) recommends prior experience as an EMT.


 
Did any of these Paramedic programs require at least a year of prerequisites? That includes the university program which can also be of medic mill quality to stay competitive and attract candidates who want to be FFs or the FD may even contract with them to get more medics out faster. Thus, these programs may "substitute" experience for education and that brings us to the mess EMS is in today. This method isn't working and thus the need for discussions such as this. Schools and some instructors want the Paramedic to remain a "tech" instead of becoming a health care professsional. EMS continues making the same mistakes over and over again in the way it fosters its young. There are also too few educated instructors out there to mentor those for a path of education and just want a "pass" number for their schools. Also, those with an education prior to entering a Paramedic program might actually question an instructor when they start teaching how "lido numbs the heart" or "CPAP pushes lung water" and would like to know "why" they are being taught crap. 

If any of these schools required a degree or if the instructors themselves had an education, they would explain taking a year of prerquisites while working before going into Paramedic school. One should not just work as an EMT with the very little knowledge, training and medical knowledge the EMT-B provides. This is why we get EMTs and Paramedics using the terms "BS calls" or dumbing down dialysis runs because they have no clue about medical issues and disease processes because they were taught primarily first-aid. Thus, working one year doing something you were not taught to do and very little first-aid is not advancing the profession. If one spent the time productively continuing their education learning about disease processes and exactly what parts of the body they are looking at, working as an EMT would make much more sense.


----------



## Medic One (Sep 15, 2009)

*Wages*

Problem with wages are that most people work for NON-County or City services.

Working for a private company usually mean lower wages, close to no pension if any, and NO federal funding.

I think there should be Federal Funding avail to private services and grant programs geared towards private companies. I have worked on the Volunteer side, Private and Country run aganecies and it is suprising that there is no consistancy from Local, State and Federal assistance across the board.

But you also have to remember EMS is young....it really got started in the late 60's to be recognized as a profession...post 9/11 we did get a boost but we are NOT like the Police and Fire Services that have been around since the 1800's

It will take an act from Congress to change the Federal Funding and unfortunatly more professionalism from many of our own people to educate the public that we are not just ambulance drivers.

Unfortunetly the TV shows really hurt our careers also...we are usually depicted as slobs that drink on the job and speed through red lights to get lunch.

IDK...money and EMS will always be an issue just for the fact that insurance agencies/medicare pretty much dictate our industry payouts/paybacks.

those are my thought....


----------



## VentMedic (Sep 15, 2009)

Medic One said:


> But you also have to remember EMS is young....it really got started in the late 60's to be recognized as a profession...post 9/11 we did get a boost *but we are NOT like the Police and Fire Services that have been around since the 1800's*


 

Young? EMS is now one of the oldest allied health professions in a college catalog. 40+ years! Almost half a century! This is no longer a valid excuse. 

But of course when those in EMS can not identify EMS as a healthcare profession, there is a big problem. Its identity should not be compared with the FD or PD. When those in EMS do not consider themselves as healthcare professionals then there is no way this profession will ever advance.

Also, almost any EMS instructor will tell you that the post 9/11 period was not the best for EMS either. The schools filled quickly with those who only wanted to be a hero to get a parade and not a health care professional. Even the FDs saw a down turn in the quality of candidates they were attracting.



> It will take an act from Congress to change the Federal Funding and unfortunatly more professionalism from many of our own people to educate the public that we are not just ambulance drivers.


 


> IDK...money and EMS will always be an issue just for the fact that insurance agencies/medicare pretty much dictate our industry payouts/paybacks.


If you had read any of my posts you would know some of the process it takes to be recognized as a profession which includes recognition in Washington DC where much of the insurance and funding legislation orignates. Those in Congress will also only declare professional status to a profession that knows who and what it is. EMS has over 50 different certs in the 50 different certs with many inconsistencies in education and training requirements. How can a profession that makes claim to a 120 hour cert for EMT and a 3 month wonder for Paramedic be taken seriously when no other health care profession has such low and inconsistent standards? EMS is going to have to decide whether it wants to be paid higher wages because it is a yuck job like garbage collection or as a medical professional.


----------



## subliminal1284 (Sep 15, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> What, exactly, does him being a fire fighter have anything to do about his reccomendation about your prehospital medical education? It's like a physician suggesting schooling to a plumber.



90% of firefighters are also either EMT's or Paramedics.


----------



## VentMedic (Sep 15, 2009)

subliminal1284 said:


> 90% of firefighters are also either EMT's or Paramedics.


 
But 89% of that 90% became EMTs and Paramedics to get a FD Job and not to be known as a medical professional. Most will still identify themselves solely as a FF. Again, the low standards for education and training make this possible. We have long lines of over 1000 applicants when a FD opening is announced. One can bet over 900 of them will already have their Paramedic cert. Those that don't get hired may go back to flipping burgers, with their Paramedic patch, at Burger King rather than get a job at a hospital or on an ambulance until the next year when the FD has another hire date for a handful of openings. As well, if you are not certified as a Paramedic when hired, the FD may make you attend the medic mill of their choice for a quick and easy how to pass the state test course. 

I'm not saying all FDs are like this and back when I was hired as a FF, they actually advocated the 2 year degree for the Paramedic. Those days are now gone for many of FDs participating in EMS today unfortunately.

A little trivia: last year when Oakland FD dropped its EMT cert requirement for FF applicants, they got over 10,000 applicants standing in line for 20 open positions.


----------



## JPINFV (Sep 15, 2009)

subliminal1284 said:


> 90% of firefighters are also either EMT's or Paramedics.



Regardless, being a fire fighter does not give anyone any special insight into EMS.


----------



## Sasha (Sep 15, 2009)

subliminal1284 said:


> 90% of firefighters are also either EMT's or Paramedics.





VentMedic said:


> But 89% of that 90% became EMTs and Paramedics to get a FD Job and not to be known as a medical professional.



I'm wondering where you people are getting your statistics??


----------



## VentMedic (Sep 15, 2009)

Sasha said:


> I'm wondering where you people are getting your statistics??


 
If one was to look at the FDs in Florida, 90% of the FFs are Paramedics and that data is usually published on their websites. 

When FD applications are reviewed, and I do wish this data was published, many of those holding a Paramedic cert have not worked as a Paramedic. Some have had EMT experience but refused to work BLS trucks while waiting for a FD opening. 

I did recently post Florida's data for Paramedic and EMT satisfaction from last year's survey and the majority of those responding were with the FDs.  

Also, the stats for Oakland, CA when the number of applicants jumped 10 fold at least by just dropping the EMT cert is significant. 

You would also be surprised at the increase in number of applicants a Flight team gets if it omits some education requirements in its job description. It seems some just wait for the standards to be lowered rather than tring to boost their resume with educational qualifications.


----------



## medic417 (Sep 15, 2009)

Sasha said:


> I'm wondering where you people are getting your statistics??



Well sweet little innocent Sashisha 94.9784523% of the time they are just wild guesses.


----------



## JPINFV (Sep 15, 2009)

75% of all statistics are made up on the spot.


----------



## medic417 (Sep 15, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> 75% of all statistics are made up on the spot.



Not quite right only 73.48295% are.  Then another 20.683541% are delayed.  Leaving about 5% being based on facts.


----------



## Sasha (Sep 15, 2009)

> It seems some just wait for the standards to be lowered rather than tring to boost their resume with educational qualifications.



Or perhaps they were in the process of boosting their educational qualifications, which is not something done quickly overnight, but seized the opprotunity when it became obtainable, even if it's through lowered standards?

It's a stretch, but it could happen.

I was referring more to your statistic that 89% of the FF/EMT/Medics were motivated to become an EMT/Paramedic to secure a fire job. Sounds like something you pulled out of your bum, especially considering to make any sort of living as an EMT or Paramedic here you either get on with one of the two services that actually pay a liveable wage but are rarely hiring, or become a fire fighter and work at a station.


----------



## VentMedic (Sep 15, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Or perhaps they were in the process of boosting their educational qualifications, which is not something done quickly overnight, but seized the opprotunity when it became obtainable, even if it's through lowered standards?
> 
> It's a stretch, but it could happen.


 
You would have to have sat in on the interviews to have known their motivation or lack of.  



Sasha said:


> I was referring more to your statistic that 89% of the FF/EMT/Medics were motivated to become an EMT/Paramedic to secure a fire job. Sounds like something you pulled out of your bum, especially considering to make any sort of living as an EMT or Paramedic here you either get on with one of the two services that actually pay a liveable wage but are rarely hiring, or become a fire fighter and work at a station.


 
As I stated in my post, I was referring to the last few FD hiring processes here in South Florida. The applicants had Paramedic certs but did not work as Paramedics even though some held the cert for several years. And, did you see the survey I referenced in another thread that was done in 2008 in Florida?


----------



## 46Young (Sep 15, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Since you are a union person this might be difficult to discuss with you. Unions do NOT promote a profession. A good insurance plan might provide peace of mind but it doesn't do much for you as a profesional Paramedic. My father was union while working the mines and had great insurance/paid etc but most of his co-workers barely had an eighth grade education. (Although I will say their first-aid education was by far superior to anything in the EMT-B courses today and it was just part of the job.)
> 
> It is the professional associations that have rallied for better professional recognition and reimbursement. They are also the ones who provide the data to hospitals when RTs, PTs and SLPs want a raise. Those unlucky enough to be covered by a union must wait for the contract to renegotiate. If RTs get their desired bills for higher education and reimbursement passed tomorrow, they will start working on implementing it instead of waiting 3 years for another contract to add an additional level.
> 
> ...



No, I understand. I'm for unions because they give the best chance for the best benefits for the industry as it stands at the moment. The vast majority of EMS employers offer as little as they can as long as they are able to maintain an applicant pool. Giving our current state of education, I believe that unions in their purest form give employees the best possible deal. I also understand your points as to how unions, particularly FD unions have generally held back the profession for the reasons you've posted throughout this forum. I won't deny that. 

In my case I didn't have years or decades to work for and wait for positive change. I strongly believe that a defined benefit retirement is of prime importance. I've long had a passing interest in the fire service, though not as much as EMS. Several co-workers from NSLIJ-CEMS went down to Fairfax before me. They told me about the pay/bennies/retirement, work schedule, job satisfaction, etc. Then they told me how well EMS was run, and how much time/resources they put into EMS to ensure that it runs well and continues to improve. They also told me how the attitude toward EMS is better than most FD's. There's also a whole EMS ladder up to BC, and an all hazards track at all levels as well. Sold! 

I've seen what increased requirements (not education, but general proficiency/knowledge) have done for an EMS agency. NSLIJ has a purposefully difficult entrance exam, and has an internship process lasting several months, which is quite strict. Their IFT division is progressive with liberal protocols. Medics are trusted to run the majority of PICU txp's without a team, or maybe with an RT or RN only. Ballon pump jobs are double medic only, as are vented sedated neurosurgical transfers, among other situations. Education is reimbursed, and career development/ advancement to other areas of the health system is encouraged. The pay is excellent for the region, as are the benefits. No pension though, that was the deal breaker for me. I feel that strongly about pensions. 

NSLIJ has strict codes of conduct, and does not tolerate ignorance in regards to medical knowledge in regards to level of cert. If you did a medic mill, their exams and internship process will weed you out in a hurry. QA/QI is on point as well. They also run a quality NYC 911 division, which helps with medic proficiency, even though it typically runs in the red. The health system has no problem hiring quality personnel. Supervisors will be quick to tell you, "We hold you to a higher standard because we pay so well". Okay, the conditions aren't because of a formal increase in education, but NSLIJ employees are held to a high standard, justified by the pay/benefits/scope, etc. No union, either.

I understand how increased education can justify higher reimbursements, which in turn allow better packages for the employee along with organization (oversimplification, but that's the gist of it). I hope it does, as it will help both for increased competition, bringing legitimate, proficient providers into the fire service, and will result in any per diem ventures being rewarding in regards to both job satisfaction and compansation.


----------



## medic417 (Sep 15, 2009)

Funny even those with unions are paid like crap plus out money every month for nothing.


----------



## 46Young (Sep 15, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Funny even those with unions are paid like crap plus out money every month for nothing.



Which locals are you referring to in particular?


----------

