# Medics Describe Horror of Chimp Attack



## VentMedic (Feb 20, 2009)

*Why do some in EMS feel the need to tell their patient's story to the media before the lady even realizes she is being talked about by her caregivers?    Do they not consider the family before releasing gorey details that they witnessed?   Why not let the doctors prepare the families first?*



*Medics Describe Horror of Chimp Attack*

*By JOHN CHRISTOFFERSEN*
Associated Press Writer


STAMFORD, Conn



http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?id=9014&siteSection=1



> Ackley, a captain with Stamford's emergency medical services, and medic Matt Groves were among the first to tend to Nash. Police formed a perimeter around them with their guns drawn in case the chimp came back.
> 
> Blood was everywhere. Groves confirmed she was alive by checking her breathing.
> 
> ...


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## Sasha (Feb 20, 2009)

> Why do some in EMS feel the need to tell their patient's story to the media before the lady even realizes she is being talked about by her caregivers?



Because they want their 10 minutes of fame.


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## silver (Feb 20, 2009)

You also assume that they don't have consent for it from the family to release this information. 

Hmmm this is my town by the way.
Sounded really scary on the scanner (I'm not home). The chimp was attempting to get into a police cruiser, got in and went after a cop. The cop then had to shoot the chimp twice.


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## karaya (Feb 20, 2009)

You're jumping to conclusions here that the patient gave no consent. It appears she did in fact give consent for in addition to statements from EMS, both medical facilities (Stamford Hospital and the Cleveland Clinic)have also provided information to the media on her surgeries, etc.

The unusual nature of the incident and resulting injuries propelled this to a worldwide news story. Not uncommon at all to see additional information published about the extent of her injuries, treatment and impending recovery.


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## bstone (Feb 20, 2009)

Isn't this a very plain HIPPA violation?


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## karaya (Feb 20, 2009)

bstone said:


> Isn't this a very plain HIPPA violation?


 
It's HIPAA.  Read my post above.


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## VentMedic (Feb 20, 2009)

karaya said:


> You're jumping to conclusions here that the patient gave no consent. It appears she did in fact give consent for in addition to statements from EMS, both medical facilities (Stamford Hospital and the Cleveland Clinic)have also provided information to the media on her surgeries, etc.


 
But why not have some consideration and respect for the family by the healthcare providers?  You don't see the nurses from the Cleveland Clinic or the staff from the first ED wanting to discuss all the cool details.   If the hospitals have a statement to make, they use a spokesperson.  

Where's the common courtesy?  Asking someone mauled and their life changed forever if they can get their own 10 minutes of fame by discussing the details to the press?   That just crosses the line for a medical profession.  The media has their own agenda to get the news out.    

I personally would have a difficult time trusting these two Paramedics with much of anything personal.  Trust is something that patients much feel comfortable in giving their care providers. Some patients are hesitant to disclose alot of medical history to EMS providers.


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## silver (Feb 20, 2009)

One of the people quoted was the captain, so was the in charge of EMS at that incident. Why not let him speak since this was released at a press conference where the chief of police spoke, officers on scene, and the mayor spoke to the press and recounted the story/situation? In addition Stamford Hospital had a press conference where the attending surgeon talked and was quoted.


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## karaya (Feb 20, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> But why not have some consideration and respect for the family by the healthcare providers? You don't see the nurses from the Cleveland Clinic or the staff from the first ED wanting to discuss all the cool details. If the hospitals have a statement to make, they use a spokesperson.
> 
> Where's the common courtesy? Asking someone mauled and their life changed forever if they can get their own 10 minutes of fame by discussing the details to the press? That just crosses the line for a medical profession. The media has their own agenda to get the news out.
> 
> I personally would have a difficult time trusting these two Paramedics with much of anything personal. Trust is something that patients much feel comfortable in giving their care providers. Some patients are hesitant to disclose alot of medical history to EMS providers.


 
I somehow have a feeling of _deja vu_. Vent, you and I have had similar discussions on this topic before.

You again are making an enormous amount of conclusions.

One, you assumed the patient lacks knowledge that information about her injuries is being discussed with the media. We know that's not the case since both medical facilities are also discussing her treatment with the media.

Two, you assume the medics are talking to the media unrestrained. For all we know their administrator or PIO is sitting right alongside while they give the interview. Perhaps they were already briefed as to the extent of their statements? Speaking as a former PIO myself, I actually thought the interview was done remarkably well and well withing the bounds of decency when you consider what the medics had to encounter. Many times I allowed medics one on one interviews with the media if the circumstances where such that the story could be better conveyed by the on-site crew.

Keep this in mind also. The cat was well out of the bag as to the extent of her injuries well before the medics gave their interview. What they described was really no surprise.

Oh and by the way gang, its 15 minutes of fame not 10.


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 20, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> But why not have some consideration and respect for the family by the healthcare providers?  You don't see the nurses from the Cleveland Clinic or the staff from the first ED wanting to discuss all the cool details.   If the hospitals have a statement to make, they use a spokesperson.
> 
> Where's the common courtesy?


It's just not so common anymore.

Silver, are they vollies or professionals?

(Yes, I realize that their actions have shown them to be less than "professional", but I'm not asking for a semantic argument, just their employment status.)


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## VentMedic (Feb 20, 2009)

karaya said:


> I somehow have a feeling of _deja vu_. Vent, you and I have had similar discussions on this topic before.
> 
> You again are making an enormous amount of conclusions.
> 
> ...


 
Just because all the neighbors are talking about it doesn't mean it is okay for healthcare *professionals* to yak too. 

How many RNs, PTs, or RRTs from a hospital setting have you interviewed directly about specific information about a patient?

Besides all that HIPAA stuff which is a different matter totally, almost every state has their own privacy laws about healthcare professionals discussing patient care. If a PR person from the hospital does so with the proper consent, then great. As a healthcare professional one should have the patient's best HEALTH care interests at heart and not those of hungry attorneys who are probably circling this case or the media guys just wanting a story. 

Show me a couple of articles where RNs or RRTs have interviewed with specific details about a patient's condition. I will then search to see if they have had their licenses placed on notice or revoked.

Are some in EMS really that starved for their 10 minutes of fame that they would not respect their patients enough to give them their right to privacy? Who gives a rat's butt about "the consent"? The lady was mutilated and hopefully they didn't do a sedation vacation on her just to get her consent or withhold meds of comfort for the media and these Paramedics to get that consent.


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## Veneficus (Feb 20, 2009)

"All that may come to my knowledge in the exercise of my profession or in daily commerce with men, which ought not to be spread abroad, I will keep secret and will never reveal."

Apparently that doesn't apply anymore when it comes to getting your face on tV.


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## firecoins (Feb 20, 2009)

silver said:


> You also assume that they don't have consent for it from the family to release this information. .


Her family is dead.  She is a widower and her daughter are dead.


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## CAOX3 (Feb 20, 2009)

I dont mean to switch gears here or hijack this post.

I am about sick of reading stories of people who have wild animal as pets and the thing attacks them or their loved ones, its not the animals fault yet they seem to pay the ultimate price.

She drove it around,  put a dress on it, took bathes with it and they slept in the same bed.  I give that monkey credit I would of snapped a long time ago.

You know what, I have an idea dont get a f'n gorrila as a pet.  Then you wont have to worry about it attacking you.


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## karaya (Feb 20, 2009)

CAOX3 said:


> I dont mean to switch gears here or hijack this post.
> 
> I am about sick of reading stories of people who have wild animal as pets and the thing attacks them or their loved ones, its not the animals fault yet they seem to pay the ultimate price.
> 
> ...


 
Point of order: The chimp did not attack the owner, but the owner's friend.


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## CAOX3 (Feb 20, 2009)

Maybe read the whole post "loved ones"

K..


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## medic417 (Feb 20, 2009)

This type of unprofessional action is why there is no hope for EMS ever advancing.  To many are trying to act like they are heros rather than focusing on medicine.  We are attracting the wrong type of people with the low education standards we have.


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## ffemt8978 (Feb 20, 2009)

medic417 said:


> This type of unprofessional action is why there is no hope for EMS ever advancing.  To many are trying to act like they are heros rather than focusing on medicine.  We are attracting the wrong type of people with the low education standards we have.



Hmmm...I read the article and didn't get that impression.  Would you care to cite what was unprofessional about this?  Also, I would like you to point out where they were trying to be "heroes rather than focusing on medicine".

Oh, and quit trying to hijack every thread with your educational standards rant.


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## karaya (Feb 20, 2009)

medic417 said:


> This type of unprofessional action is why there is no hope for EMS ever advancing. To many are trying to act like they are heros rather than focusing on medicine. We are attracting the wrong type of people with the low education standards we have.


 
Oh please. You need to get grip on what is true media sensationalism and a story that describes an extremely unusual and dangerous situation with a patient's life at stake. Two totally different types of media reporting.

They (the paramedics) conducted an excellent interview! They stayed to the facts and did not speculate and furthermore, nothing in their story was self serving. In my experience as a PIO these guys ran right down the line of textbook examples of "101" media interviews.

Your statement, "To[sic] many are trying to act like they are heros rather than focus on medicine" is just plain silly. For years I've seen news reports of EMS caregivers stealing, beating patients, driving intoxicated, working without a license, etc. And along comes an article that informs the readers of an incredible situation that confronted these Connecticut paramedics and you go as far as to attack the paramedic's education standards?

This is the problem when EMS providers read about other EMS providers in newsworthy situations. Too many burrow into a motive of the interview and constantly come up with conclusions that are a result of their own ignorance has to how the public truly perceives EMS's role.

But fire departments? Well they figured this out and have used the media to their advantage for years.


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## medic417 (Feb 20, 2009)

ffemt8978 said:


> Hmmm...I read the article and didn't get that impression.  Would you care to cite what was unprofessional about this?  Also, I would like you to point out where they were trying to be "heroes rather than focusing on medicine".
> 
> Oh, and quit trying to hijack every thread with your educational standards rant.




It is unprofessional to disclose details of a patients injurys, the blood and guts.  It is not the publics business.  The fact that they are drawing attn to themselves is the "heroes" part.  They are wanting attn for their actions.   This is my opinion as is the education I mentioned sorry you do not like my opinion.  My opinion is not an attempt to hijack.


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## DevilDuckie (Feb 21, 2009)

Maybe it's time to stop trying to humanize wild animals.. and just let them stay wild animals. You wouldn't play with a pet rattlesnake, why should a chimp be any different?


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## ffemt8978 (Feb 21, 2009)

DevilDuckie said:


> Maybe it's time to stop trying to humanize wild animals.. and just let them stay wild animals. You wouldn't play with a pet rattlesnake, why should a chimp be any different?



Because he's one of our Community Leaders?


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## VentMedic (Feb 21, 2009)

karaya said:


> They (the paramedics) conducted an excellent interview!


 
Of course they did! They give all the gorey details the media wanted to hear and that is probably after some editing. 

Healthcare professionals see people when they are most vulnerable. To capitalize on this to get their names in print is just self-serving and they should not be trusted with any patient data. 

If I ran to the media every time I had a celebrity or some gorey details that could make headlines, I would have much time for anything else. Oh wait, I would be unemployed after the first story. Both my flight and hospital jobs have ZERO tolerance for this type of self serving crap. Of course the state would also have something to say about it. 

karaya,
Didn't we discuss state privacy laws in another thread?


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## DevilDuckie (Feb 21, 2009)

OMG! Don't shoot chimpie!


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 21, 2009)

ffemt8978 said:


> Oh, and quit trying to hijack every thread with your educational standards rant.


That's almost impossible to avoid, since really, every issue in EMS comes back to education, does it not?


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## DevilDuckie (Feb 21, 2009)

So is the lady going to survive?


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## VentMedic (Feb 21, 2009)

DevilDuckie said:


> So is the lady going to survive?


 
She may live but only after enduring unspeakable pain from  the numerous surgeries and rehab.  Her life will not be the same.


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## DevilDuckie (Feb 21, 2009)

Wow, that's just so horrible.


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## Hockey (Feb 21, 2009)

So did anyone else hear the lady gave her "pet" xanax?


Surely helped


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## medic417 (Feb 21, 2009)

DevilDuckie said:


> You wouldn't play with a pet rattlesnake, ?



Why not?  They are are actually nice till you piss them off.


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## Sasha (Feb 21, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Why not?  They are are actually nice till you piss them off.



Yeah.. I don't think I'd want the risk the pissing them off part.


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## CAOX3 (Feb 21, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Why not?  They are are actually nice till you piss them off.



Yeah....I ll take your word on that one.


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## medic417 (Feb 21, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Yeah.. I don't think I'd want the risk the pissing them off part.



Just move slowly especially if they cuddle up next to you in bed.  And don't poke them with a stick that really makes them mad.


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## CAOX3 (Feb 21, 2009)

Poking them with a stick,  you can rest assured thats probably the last thing I would do.

Cuddle up next to you in bed?  Not so much.


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## medic417 (Feb 21, 2009)

How about take a bath with them?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,308401,00.html


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## DevilDuckie (Feb 21, 2009)

medic417 said:


> How about take a bath with them?
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,308401,00.html




:blink:

Honestly, what sane individual would do something like that?


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## Veneficus (Feb 21, 2009)

Job security my friends, job security.


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## medic417 (Feb 21, 2009)

Veneficus said:


> Job security my friends, job security.



LOL.  That is so true.  Except some claim they are immune to venom from snake bites.


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## JonTullos (Feb 21, 2009)

I spent seven years in radio and I have a degree in Broadcast Communications Technology so I know the media's prospective on this.  They're out to get a story to get viewers/readers.  Viewers and readers are how they make money from advertising reaching more people.  So there's that.

Now on to the part about the medics talking:  What's the difference in those guys talking to the press and the doctors talking to the press?  If you ask me there isn't any.  Is it a a HIPAA violation?  I'm not an expert on that so I won't give an opinion however I will say that these types of interviews happen all the time and you don't hear about the facility or department being punished because of it.  Is it wrong?  Probably.  I'm not sure I would want to participate in such an interview but why judge the ones who do?  I'm sure they're told what they can and talk about and I'd be surprised if there isn't a superior or compliance person in there with them.

Is everyone on this board so self righteous that they would never talk to the press and have never and will never participate in an interview like this?  I highly doubt that's the case.  Again, I'm not sure I would personally want to participate but I'm not going to hate on someone who does and question their professionalism.  

By the way, I'm not sure who asked but... to the person who asked if they were vollys or paid:  What does that have to do with anything?  I know some people say that vollys aren't "professional" but my experience has been totally different.


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## VentMedic (Feb 21, 2009)

JonTullos said:


> I spent seven years in radio and I have a degree in Broadcast Communications Technology so I know the media's prospective on this. They're out to get a story to get viewers/readers. Viewers and readers are how they make money from advertising reaching more people. So there's that.
> 
> Now on to the part about the medics talking: What's the difference in those guys talking to the press and the doctors talking to the press? If you ask me there isn't any. Is it a a HIPAA violation? I'm not an expert on that so I won't give an opinion however I will say that these types of interviews happen all the time and you don't hear about the facility or department being punished because of it. Is it wrong? Probably. I'm not sure I would want to participate in such an interview but why judge the ones who do? I'm sure they're told what they can and talk about and I'd be surprised if there isn't a superior or compliance person in there with them.
> 
> My question is this: Is everyone on this board so self righteous that they would never talk to the press and have never and will never participate in an interview like this? I highly doubt that's the case. Again, I'm not sure I would personally want to participate but I'm not going to hate on someone who does and question their professionalism.


 
Kiss and tell mentality.

Do you know how many celebrities or high profile patients some hospital have on any given day? What if hospitals violated their trust and chatted to the media about all of them? Yes some celebrities and politicians do wnat the publicity but many don't. We also admit high profile patients under annonymous names and may move them throughout our system to keep the media and other intruders out of their lives. You wouldn't believe what some in the news industry will do for a story. In some situations, such as those of violence, excessive news coverage can jeopardize the safety of the patient, other patients and staff. 

Yes the doctor or some other spokesperson might speak about a patient with permission, however most don't. However, how many RNs, RRTs and phlebotomists have you seen chatting it up about their patients to a reporter? 

Even if there weren't strict state laws on the disclosure of medical information, there should be some common decency. If a family member or someone you knew confided in you as both a health care provider and friend that they had cancer or erectile disfunction, would you causally talk about your friend's condition at the coffee shop or chat with a media person using them as an example for whatever reason if given the opportunity? 

We just saw this with the Travolta story and have had to go through another Paramedic's 10 minutes of fame with Anna Nicole Smith. At least the Paramedics on the scene of Britney's breakdown didn't plaster their story and mugs on our TV screens or rush to sell their stories to the ENQUIRER. Of course, they still could but I have some faith in their professionalism that they won't. But, did you see any of the hospital staff from these cases chatting it up with reporters? 

A huge part of being a professional is knowing when to keep your mouth shut and respecting the patient's privacy and that of their family. Swooping down on them to get a consent signed during their moment of crisis just so you can get your 10 minutes of fame violates a trust you should have been establishing with the patient instead of exploiting. 

The story of this woman just happened to register on the Paramedics gore meter and probably were just beside themselves wanting to talk about their patient and the media gave them that opportunity. Concern for the patient or familiy was probably not a thought. There is a term used in the FDs to describe this excited state but since this is a family style forum, I'll refrain from using it. 

Here's some good reading:
http://www.dcmsonline.org/jax-medicine/2008journals/ethics/privacy.pdf



> Privacy and confidentiality are ancient values in medicine.
> The things patients tell doctors – what Hippocrates called
> "holy secrets" – are special, delicate and privileged. They
> must be safeguarded and not inappropriately disclosed to
> ...







> Originally Posted by *JonTullos*
> By the way, I'm not sure who asked but... to the person who asked if they were vollys or paid: What does that have to do with anything? I know some people say that vollys aren't "professional" but my experience has been totally different.


 
Not everyone is out to pick on the volunteer. There are relevant reasons here. HIPAA may not apply to volunteer or municipal services that do not bill. However, state statutes for privacy may.


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## medic417 (Feb 21, 2009)

JonTullos said:


> Is everyone on this board so self righteous that they would never talk to the press and have never and will never participate in an interview like this?  I highly doubt that's the case.



I would never talk to the media about any specific case.  I get calls at my office frequently.  I will do interviews regarding the current situation such as staffing, needs for new ambulances, when the public should call an ambulance, etc.  As soon as reporter asks about the snake bite victim found in a tub of rattlesnakes I tell them sorry out respect for my patients privacy I will not discuss anything about that call.  Now if the reporter asks can you provide insight as what the public should do if they encounter a rattlesnake and what to do if they get biten I will give them some information on that.  But again no to anything in regards to the patient.


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## firecoins (Feb 21, 2009)

medic417 said:


> I would never talk to the media about any specific case.  I get calls at my office frequently.  I will do interviews regarding the current situation such as staffing, needs for new ambulances, when the public should call an ambulance, etc.  As soon as reporter asks about the snake bite victim found in a tub of rattlesnakes I tell them sorry out respect for my patients privacy I will not discuss anything about that call.  Now if the reporter asks can you provide insight as what the public should do if they encounter a rattlesnake and what to do if they get biten I will give them some information on that.  But again no to anything in regards to the patient.



what should people do if they enounter a tub full of rattlesnakes? can they still take a bath?

what was the name of the person you found in a tub of rattlesnakes?  Was the scene safe for you to enter?


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## medic417 (Feb 21, 2009)

firecoins said:


> what should people do if they enounter a tub full of rattlesnakes? can they still take a bath?
> 
> what was the name of the person you found in a tub of rattlesnakes?  Was the scene safe for you to enter?



If you have a tub full of rattlesnakes call all your friends.  Get the grease warm and get ready for some delicious deep fried rattler.  UMMM MMM good.  

After eating the rattlers a nice warm bath is soothing.  

No Comment

No comment as we do not discuss anything specific to the call.


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## karaya (Feb 21, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> The story of this woman just happened to register on the Paramedics gore meter and probably were just beside themselves wanting to talk about their patient and the media gave them that opportunity. Concern for the patient or familiy was probably not a thought. There is a term used in the FDs to describe this excited state but since this is a family style forum, I'll refrain from using it.


 
Vent, I sure hope you don't make sweeping jump to conclusion judgments with your patient's as you just did with the paramedics from the Stamford Emergency Medical Services. You seem to have a tendency to give hospitals a pass for talking to the media, but if a pre-hospital provider does, your ready to label them as gore mongers and boil them in oil. As a matter of fact, I find your constant condescending attitude toward EMS providers on this subject pompous and unprofessional for a woman of your education.

Your quoted statement above couldn't be any further from the truth to what events actually took place prior to the interview and during the interview.

So let's move on to some facts I've gathered so far. This afternoon I conducted some interviews of my own with a key person directly involved with the patient as well as the Associated Press interview.

First, it should be noted that Stamford Emergency Medical Services (SEMS) has an extremely close working relationship with the Stamford Hospital where the woman was taken and SEMS is the only EMS provider in Stamford.

The interviews took place several days after the incident and was coordinated by the SEMS Chief of Operations and SEMS Executive Director, who by the way herself is a health care attorney. This was jointly worked with SEMS close partner, Stamford Hospital. During the hospital interviews, the patient's family also participated.

Prior to granting the interview with the Associated Press, both the Chief of Operations and the Executive Director for SEMS met with their board of directors and obtained their approval as well. It should be noted that some of the SEMS board members also sit on the Stamford Hospital board.

It was made clear to the reporter that Captain Ackley would not go into any in depth detail to specific injuries. He would only discuss what he and the medics saw and their on scene experience. During the interview, the reporter did a follow-up question concerning the patient's eye injuries and Caption Ackley refused to discuss any more details as to her eye injury. That can be clearly seen in the interview his refusal to elaborate.

So you're attack, "_this woman just happened to register on the Paramedics gore meter and probably were just beside themselves wanting to talk about their patient and the media gave them that opportunity"_ is completely unwarranted.

Vent, you and I clearly disagree on this topic now and in the past and I don't expect to change your views. Nor am I trying to. I have a great deal of admiration and respect for you and your work. All I attempting to do is to educate you to the facts of the case and perhaps you will consider the notion that not all paramedics are gore mongers looking for their 15 minutes of fame. And when their 15 minutes of fame does arrive, it can be handled in a proper and professional manner as the folks from Stamford Emergency Medical Services clearly demonstrated.


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 21, 2009)

I don't find any of that to be particularly relevant.  The question is not whether or not the statements were legal or authorized.  The question is whether or not they were ethical, or positively served the interests of the patient.  Regardless of legality, statements that do not positively serve the interests of the patient are unethical and should be avoided.


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## karaya (Feb 21, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> I don't find any of that to be particularly relevant. The question is not whether or not the statements were legal or authorized. The question is whether or not they were ethical, or positively served the interests of the patient. Regardless of legality, statements that do not positively serve the interests of the patient are unethical and should be avoided.


 
Completely your opinion, which I respect.  But, it's okay for the hospital to discuss it with the media?


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## Veneficus (Feb 21, 2009)

This discussion has definitely brought out something that EMS, hospitals, and other providers need to take a hard look at.

Clearly for the purpose of public support and relations, EMS has to have a visible presence. But unlike fire and Police departments do fall under the role of a healthcare provider, which very old traditions usually with the effect of law as well as sometimes specific laws, ethics, and professional oaths about privacy and confidentiality come into play.

My stance on this issue is probably a little more extreme than Vent's. aside from general remarks that really say nothing like "serious, critical, and guarded condition" absolutely nothing about the patient's condition or circumstances leading to it should be divulged to the public. 

Obviously as a teaching instrument where identifying details are irrelevent or between care givers that is another issue.

I am not trying to curb the required freedom of the press, only support that healthcare providers should recuse themselves of being the ones making statements to the media. But that then begs “which media?” Trade journals? TV News? Where is the line drawn? I don’t know, but I would not speak to the media in anything but a case presentation, where all identifiers were removed, format that is not of much interest outside of medical circles. 
I just hold dear that knowledge which I am given in trust, should remain in trust and there is no reason to ask for permission to make a statement, because there is no statement that needs to be made. 

I am not singling out EMS. I know that hospitals, Drs, as well as other people make such statements, but I think it is just as much, if not more wrong for them as well.

What does that leave open for EMS to broadcast to get noticed? Maybe the almost non existant public health and safety aspects?


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 21, 2009)

karaya said:


> Completely your opinion, which I respect.  But, it's okay for the hospital to discuss it with the media?


This isn't "HospitalLife.com".  This is EMTlife.com.  A discussion of hospital ethics is beyond the scope of this discussion.  However, having significant hospital experience, I know that it is standard for a patient to be asked about his or her desires regarding publicity.  If the patient wanted her condition to be discussed, then I would consider doing so within the context of that wish.  But I would very seriously doubt that any physicians called a news conference without that release.  And You have given us no information about whether she gave such a release to the hospital or to EMS.


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## VentMedic (Feb 21, 2009)

karaya said:


> Vent, I sure hope you don't make sweeping jump to conclusion judgments with your patient's as you just did with the paramedics from the Stamford Emergency Medical Services.


 
With all the famous boobs and weanies I have seen during my years in healthcare, I have not felt compelled to call a reporter. I must gain my patients' trust and stake my professionalism that I will protect the privacy of those that put their trust in me.



karaya said:


> Completely your opinion, which I respect. But, it's okay for the hospital to discuss it with the media?


 
How often do you see hospitals disclosing information to the public? Even this case is now leaving the spotlight. 

Our patients are also informed that their information will be used in data collection and certain medical cases will be presented for education purposes. However, great caution is taken to ensure that patient's identity is secure. 

As a reporter I can see you have a very different agenda and it has little to do with patient care. You want good pictures to sell  a juicy story. You gain the confidence of young EMS providers, many of whom have lax leadership, to get what you want. But, that is what makes you good at your media profession but not a good patient advocate.


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## karaya (Feb 21, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> This isn't "HospitalLife.com". This is EMTlife.com. A discussion of hospital ethics is beyond the scope of this discussion. However, having significant hospital experience, I know that it is standard for a patient to be asked about his or her desires regarding publicity. If the patient wanted her condition to be discussed, then I would consider doing so within the context of that wish. But I would very seriously doubt that any physicians called a news conference without that release. And You have given us no information about whether she gave such a release to the hospital or to EMS.


 
Of course no physician called for a press conference. With the high profile of this incident, the media went to the hospital as they did EMS.   And yes, both hospitals and EMS obtained releases.  And I'm not advocating EMS do anything different than what the hospitals do in releasing patient information to the media.  The same standards should apply.


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## medic417 (Feb 21, 2009)

karaya said:


> Of course no physician called for a press conference. With the high profile of this incident, the media went to the hospital as they did EMS.   And yes, both hospitals and EMS obtained releases.  And I'm not advocating EMS do anything different than what the hospitals do in releasing patient information to the media.  The same standards should apply.




Not picking on you but on other sites you call yourself an ambulance chaser.  That implies you do want to get information that would not (and in my opinion should not) normally be disclosed.  I hate to say you battling to release patient information is biased as you are the media.


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## karaya (Feb 21, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> As a reporter I can see you have a very different agenda and it has little to do with patient care. You want good pictures to sell a juicy story. You gain the confidence of young EMS providers, many of whom have lax leadership, to get what you want. But, that is what makes you good at your media profession but not a good patient advocate.


 
Aw Vent, there you go being judgmental again. Actually now that you brought it up, all of my work is EMS related and is used in the EMS industry. And I don't have to prey on young paramedics with lax management. I spend a great deal of time traveling throughout the country riding with dozens of well know EMS providers and I'm well respected in the industry for my work. My work was recognized at last year's EMS Expo in Las Vegas as well in which I won an award.

I give out tons of my work every year _pro bono_ for ACLS, PHTLS and PALS classes and a gob more that I can't remember the acronyms for. In addition, hundreds of my photos appear in over 15 paramedic, EMT and yes soon to be nursing text books. The very same books that are in classes today for their EMS programs. And I maintain a close working relationship with the authors as well. I'm currently involved in three of the largest paramedic text book publications and getting ready to begin work on two more releases this year.

In addition to EMS education books, I have over a dozen EMS organizations that contract to me for my work. NREMT and NAEMSE are two national examples of my clients. I'm a contributing photographer and writer for JEMS magazine as well.

So my work is a tad bit more focused on education than front page glorification. Yes, I may be "media", but I'm on your side of the fence and not the front page scoundrel you seem to make me for. It's all EMS baby!


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## karaya (Feb 21, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Not picking on you but on other sites you call yourself an ambulance chaser. That implies you do want to get information that would not (and in my opinion should not) normally be disclosed. I hate to say you battling to release patient information is biased as you are the media.


 
No, that's just a joke about my line of work.  Just like my signature below, _EMS Paparazzi_.   I spend about 20 to 30 hours a week riding with EMS providers to obtain my images.  I also travel throughout the United States as well for my images.  A new text book gig that I have coming up is going to put me in Las Vegas (Clark County) riding with those folks for a few weeks.

I always obtain releases and I tend to be more conservative than I need to be, but sometimes with the patients condition it's not a good time to pull the camera.  That's a shot I can get next week with a different patient.  My work ethics is one reason I'm in such demand.  My host providers feel very comfortable having me with them.  I still get several invitations from providers for me to ride with them.

I hope this helps your query.


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## VentMedic (Feb 21, 2009)

karaya said:


> Aw Vent, there you go being judgmental again. Actually now that you brought it up, all of my work is EMS related and is used in the EMS industry.


 
I've seen your photos. You have a website full of stock photos on the internet. Some of them were taken in the back of an ambulance where a person should have some expectation of privacy with only healthcare providers and those immediately involved with their safety and heathcare present, not the media. If the patient doesn't sign the release, you were still present in an area that should be restricted so that personal information can flow freely. Yes, you may compare this to the times a teaching hospital records patients for educational purposes but those photos don't go up for sale on an internet website. 

Again, you are the media. I am a healthcare professional and a patient advocate to see that my patient's privacy is protected while they are in my care. If the patient wants to talk to a reporter once care has been provided, that is their choice. Unless directly asked by the patient to say something I will not and even then my hospital would have our own public relations coordinator go over what I can and can not say. This also applied when I was working on a helicopter. That agency had the same rules but then many of our patients came from hospital contracts and we also respected the rules of the hospital for patient privacy. But again, they weren't much different than the Flight team's.



> I always obtain releases and I tend to be more conservative than I need to be, but sometimes with the patients condition it's not a good time to pull the camera. That's a shot I can get next week with a different patient. My work ethics is one reason I'm in such demand. *My host providers feel very comfortable having me with them.* *I still get several invitations from providers for me to ride with them.*


 
Your hosts are not the patients. They are EMS providers who do enjoy the attention. Once the patient is in a moving truck with the EMT(P)s, you and your camera, what choice do the patients have? They may even feel obligated if not a little intimidated by their vulnerable state when they are asked to sign a release.


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## ffemt8978 (Feb 21, 2009)

I don't forsee this going anywhere but in circles.

Closed for twenty four hours.


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