# Forced Entry



## AnthonyM83 (Apr 26, 2008)

Does anyone know about case law on forcing entry to reach patient on 911 calls, particularly if the patient was not the caller? Has anyone had any legal issue encounters surrounding that?

Also, for the non-FD ambulances...are you equipped for that or do you call FD? LE?


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## Jon (Apr 26, 2008)

Case law: I don't know. I know Philly PD got in a world of crap over that a few years back, though.

As for forcing entry - We've got some tools.. but the County Dispatch adds FD when we need forcible entry.


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## CFRBryan347768 (Apr 26, 2008)

One of our frequent flyers decided he was going to call 911 and than lock the door and not answer at all, the *cop* than instructed me to grab the halligan bar and pop the door open. It worked and than our frequent flyer who was completely alert and oriented refused care and than the cops did their thing.


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## emtwacker710 (Apr 26, 2008)

our FD and squad can force entry only if we see some sort of danger or emergency inside, such as smoke, flames, a person on the ground, but if there is nothing visible we have to call a patrol and have them present while the FD takes the door down, sometimes the police will be nice and allow us to notify them then allow us to take out the door while the patrol is still in route..


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## Grady_emt (Apr 26, 2008)

As a 3rd service EMS agency, we are to call for PD and Fire when forcible entry is needed, as well as notify a supervisor if the entry is executed.  Im not sure what AFD's SOP is for forcible entry though.  I know that if we see the Pt (say lying on the floor), or the call originated from inside the address (landline not cellphone) and a few other circumstances then we are to call for AFD, APD to come out.  AFD will pop a door without having PD present if there is an apparent immediate life threat.


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## NJN (Apr 26, 2008)

No, we are not equipped to force entry. If all windows and doors are locked then we have to call FD. If we find an open window and someone on the crew can fit through it, they're going. I'm guessing if we saw the pt. u/c on the ground or there was smoke we are allowed to pop a  window and go in. Although we are very creative in finding ways in.


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## CFRBryan347768 (Apr 26, 2008)

NJNewbie196 said:


> No, we are not equipped to force entry. If all windows and doors are locked then we have to call FD. If we find an open window and someone on the crew can fit through it, they're going. I'm guessing if we saw the pt. u/c on the ground or there was smoke we are allowed to pop a  window and go in. Although we are very creative in finding ways in.



What happens when your smallest person gets attacked by the HUGE dog, or HUGE patient, or even better goes in and disoriented pt doesnt realize whats going on and shoots. I'd push the guy with the shiny bracelets and a gun in


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## NJN (Apr 26, 2008)

CFRBryan347768 said:


> What happens when your smallest person gets attacked by the HUGE dog, or HUGE patient, or even better goes in and disoriented pt doesnt realize whats going on and shoots. I'd push the guy with the shiny bracelets and a gun in



Its called announce and enter, we even do it when going through a door. As we walk in we say "****** Rescue Squad". Plus, you look through the window and see if there is any thing or anybody there. PD doesn't do forced or unforced entry for us. Personally I have had to call FD to force entry once.


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## MAC4NH (Apr 27, 2008)

Case law and statutory rules vary state to state.  You'll have to talk to your agency's lawyers to find that out.  

I work in a city environment in NJ and my agency's policy is to not perform forced entries.  If we can't get to a patient, we'll try to get a landlord or super to open the door.  Otherwise we call in the FD or the PD's Emergency Services Unit.  They both love doing forced entries and they wind up with any liability (their liability is also much more limited than ours).  The good thing about the PD is that they will take responsibility for securing the property if it turns out that there is no patient there (which happens a lot).


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## JPINFV (Apr 27, 2008)

I would be careful barging into any locked house as it is a rather good way to legally get shot. Unless you can see an obvious patient, the prudent thing to do would be to wait for PD and allow them to enter first.


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## medicdan (Apr 27, 2008)

Does your SOP change if it is a medic alert call? How about a concerned relative (son/daughter/health proxy)?


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## MAC4NH (Apr 27, 2008)

We never force entry into any property because of safety and liability concerns.  While occasionally a fire company will open a window, we almost always leave that work to our friends with the Glocks on their hips.


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## mikie (Apr 30, 2008)

I'm on a fire dept but our ambulance doesn't carry any rescue-type tools.  

Though, we often take the ambulance and a rescue truck*  to most calls (unless it's seemingly unnecessary, but can be on scene within minutes with additional manpower if necessary) and a few times we needed to pull out some tools to break locks to gain entry.  Once a LEO broke off a lock using a short 4x4 block of wood.  

*actually our old ambulance, converted into rescue but still has Tx capability (but more of MCI or last-ditch tx unit) & it has all ILS equipment


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## Grady_emt (Apr 30, 2008)

and always remember "Try before you Pry"


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## mikie (Apr 30, 2008)

Grady_emt said:


> and always remember "Try before you Pry"



Kinda similar...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_8zSGb6HzE


(I personally don't like the title of the video, the cop had good intentions)


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## paramedix (May 1, 2008)

In some cases we fall under the Fireman's Act, but the fire department don't always like that or rather would not agree to it, as we are not employed by them, we are EMS.

Our law system works on the reasonable man act. What would a reasonable have done to save the life of that person. If the patient or the patient's family do decide to open a malicious damage to property case, you will go to court, hopefully not arrested as this type of case requires most of the time for a person to be arrested. 

Once you in court you will be able to voice your reason for doing so and the judge will then take it from there....reasonable man...

Dont go and bulldoze the house....or blow it up with TNT though....


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## AnthonyM83 (May 1, 2008)

paramedix said:


> In some cases we fall under the Fireman's Act, but the fire department don't always like that or rather would not agree to it, as we are not employed by them, we are EMS.



What does the Fireman's Act say about this? Is this national?


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## BossyCow (May 1, 2008)

I have forced open a door once. We were in voice contact with the pt. She fell and had been lying on the floor for several hours. She was telling us that a door was unlocked, but it wasn't. We tried several windows and even tried to stick a skinny guy in through the dog door. 

After, what I determined to be too much time fiddling around with it, and a pt whose LOC seemed to be diminishing with time, I grabbed the halligan tool and popped the door lock. Pt was diagnosed with multiple fx to her lumbar and sacral spine and was slightly hypothermic. I had permission to pop the door lock from the pt. 

Without pt consent or visual confirmation through a window that a pt is in danger, we have to call a LEO to break the door. We had a frequent flier who was a major pain. One of my favorite parts of a call with her was standing outside with her cussing at us, spitting mad, while we waited for the sheriff to arrive. Once she even scooted over to the door on her butt, unlocked the door then scooted back over to where she was 'hurt and unable to get up'


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## paramedix (May 3, 2008)

AnthonyM83 said:


> What does the Fireman's Act say about this? Is this national?



Fire Brigade Services Act No.99 of 1987, Amendment Act No.14 of 2000...some other amendments not included.

(Refer to full act, I cannot paste it here...)

Page 4 of the act as published in the Government Gazette:

...(a) Preventing the outbreak or spread of fire;
...(b) Fighting or extinguishing a fire;
...(c) The protection of life or property against a fire or any other threatening danger;
...(d) The rescue of life or property from fire or any other danger;
...(e) ...(refers to our Health Act 1977, Act No.63 of 1977)...

(2) This act shall apply to the national territory referred to in Section 1 of the said Constitution. 

Thus a member of the service may act in order to save a life or property by using means...


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## LE-EMT (May 4, 2008)

mikie333 said:


> Kinda similar...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_8zSGb6HzE
> 
> ...



LMAO good intentioned but he was a little lost..... PD is paying for some new windows.   Personally I love when Sgt W.L. Norman said " How do we write this one up."  

My advice... Call pd you are not paid to make entry into houses and get shot.  Even if you do for what ever reason make entry you want LE there to back your decision and clear the house.    If you can see the PT laying on the floor u/c non responsive who is to say that there isn't some one in the back room who is hostile.  You aren't any help if you are laying on the floor bleeding out next to them.  SAFETY FIRST ladies and gentlemen.


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## LE-EMT (May 4, 2008)

OH if the house is on fire everything else goes out the window.  Get them out.


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## mikie (May 4, 2008)

LE-EMT said:


> My advice... Call pd you are not paid to make entry into houses and get shot.  Even if you do for what ever reason make entry you want LE there to back your decision and clear the house.    If you can see the PT laying on the floor u/c non responsive who is to say that there isn't some one in the back room who is hostile.  You aren't any help if you are laying on the floor bleeding out next to them.  SAFETY FIRST ladies and gentlemen.



Agreed! Also, if the house seems 'shady' -you really want to make sure it's safe before knocking down everything.  We've all heard about booby-traps for LEO & FFs


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