# Aurora FD for the win



## LACoGurneyjockey (Apr 26, 2015)

I realize sexual harassment is no laughing matter, but I have to laugh at this. The recording is pure brilliance. 

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/new...making-lewd-comments-about-female-emt04242015


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## OnceAnEMT (Apr 26, 2015)

At least he is clever.

Oopsiedoodle.


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## SandpitMedic (Apr 28, 2015)

Omg... So what. 

That's likely the tamest open mic **** talking I've ever heard. 

Make it a hot button issue like - dare I say - "sexual harassment" and everyone gets all worked up. 

Someone got their feelings hurt? Awwwwwww. Suck it up and drive on.


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## escapedcaliFF (May 3, 2015)

That's nothing. Obviously the female EMT felt she could possibly get a lawsuit and contacted the media. Once it blows over she will probably be embarrassed and humiliated into going to a different agency.


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## Tigger (May 3, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> Omg... So what.
> 
> That's likely the tamest open mic **** talking I've ever heard.
> 
> ...



That's definitely the right attitude to have over sexual harassment.


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## escapedcaliFF (May 3, 2015)

Political correctness is running wild in this country. I remember when the army started pushing EO and mandatory sexual harrasment classes what a joke. So what a joke was made but do you honestly think he meant harm??


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## escapedcaliFF (May 3, 2015)

Also if she has that reputation obviously a liuetant making a joke about it is not doing any harm to her image in that department.


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## LACoGurneyjockey (May 3, 2015)

So then where is the line, mr. all knowing Firefighter?


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## Tigger (May 3, 2015)

Reputation not withstanding, an* officer in a leadership position* should not be making such comments period.


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## escapedcaliFF (May 4, 2015)

LACoGurneyjockey said:


> So then where is the line, mr. all knowing Firefighter?



First off I'm not longer a FF cause of medical reasons.
Oh he was deffiently on the line but not yet over it. He meant it as a joke that was reserved for his engine only and made a mistake. Fire departments are very close knit group of guys. Everyone on an engine is like a family. The guys at your station on another engine are like your extended family however you know you all have each other's best interest at heart. I have been the subject of someone dropping in on a conversation I was having with my guys and this outside person felt it was over the line and made a big stink about it. My guys had no issue with it what so ever cause we where all like brothers and command thought it was not over the line. While a Lt. saying those things might not send the best message to those under him its a far cry from anything totally out of control. I dont think his career should be at risk cause of a mistake. The issue I have is now a days someone says something they don't like and first thing they do is run to command or their EO rep. Careers are flushed down the drain due to political correctness and outside pressure. The media will always blow stuff out of proportion so I take this story with a grain of salt. This story is far from why they put sexual harrasment standards in place.


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## Tigger (May 4, 2015)

escapedcaliFF said:


> First off I'm not longer a FF cause of medical reasons.
> Oh he was deffiently on the line but not yet over it. He meant it as a joke that was reserved for his engine only and made a mistake. Fire departments are very close knit group of guys. Everyone on an engine is like a family. The guys at your station on another engine are like your extended family however you know you all have each other's best interest at heart. I have been the subject of someone dropping in on a conversation I was having with my guys and this outside person felt it was over the line and made a big stink about it. My guys had no issue with it what so ever cause we where all like brothers and command thought it was not over the line. While a Lt. saying those things might not send the best message to those under him its a far cry from anything totally out of control. I dont think his career should be at risk cause of a mistake. The issue I have is now a days someone says something they don't like and first thing they do is run to command or their EO rep. Careers are flushed down the drain due to political correctness and outside pressure. The media will always blow stuff out of proportion so I take this story with a grain of salt. This story is far from why they put sexual harrasment standards in place.


Thanks for the explanation on how tight knit fire crews are. You know that EMS often has that as well, right? We aren't just a bunch of soul sucking ambulance people.

If an individual's comments contribute to a hostile work place, that needs to be dealt with.


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## escapedcaliFF (May 4, 2015)

Tigger said:


> Thanks for the explanation on how tight knit fire crews are. You know that EMS often has that as well, right? We aren't just a bunch of soul sucking ambulance people.
> 
> If an individual's comments contribute to a hostile work place, that needs to be dealt with.



Yeah I know that as I work on an ambulance now. I am no longer a FF due to medical reasons.


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## Tigger (May 4, 2015)

I saw that. Nonetheless I find it tiresome how everytime something like that happens that FFs feel the need to justify such behavior with "boys club" excuse, complete with the lecture on "the brotherhood."


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## escapedcaliFF (May 4, 2015)

Tigger said:


> I saw that. Nonetheless I find it tiresome how everytime something like that happens that FFs feel the need to justify such behavior with "boys club" excuse, complete with the lecture on "the brotherhood."



I didn't mean it that way. I'm just trying to make a point to people who might not know. Firefighting and EMS is still very much a boys club still.  I have given the lecture to a EMT we had that was a female who felt she was left out and I spent time trying to make her feel welcomed. She understood things but always felt I was the only one she could talk to. She finally opened up a bit and got along with all the guys but still she would always come to me about how she felt left out and complain about guys making inappropriate jokes. Eventually she opened up and became more foul mouthed than a sailor. She developed that thick skin and when someone would make a joke directed at her she would dish it back ten fold. It can be a stressful job to begin with so a messed up foul mouth sense of humor is really the last thing people should be worried about. I have no problem with woman in FDs and EMS as long as they can do their job. Only issue I have is when woman use their gender as an excuse or think the same standards don't apply to them.


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## Angel (May 4, 2015)

You just keep digging....


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## EMTinCT (May 10, 2015)

It doesn't matter if this is "tame" or is it's reserved for his engine company or whatever. It's still sexual harassment, it's totally unprofessional, and someone in a senior leadership position needs to never, ever say such things. The best thing he can do now is profusely apologize, go through remedial education in sexual harassment and appropriate workplace behavior, draft new guidelines on sexual harassment, and be the model for future behavior. If he does anything less than he is simply perpetuating the "good old boys club" model.


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## Uclabruin103 (May 10, 2015)

This isn't just a fire or ems thing. This is a culture thing. Every job you go to will have these issues. Just so happens ours can be recorded and public record. These were for sure over the line for a supervisor. No doubt about it. 

In today's work place is no longer what you meant to say... but how others interpret what you say.


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## COmedic17 (May 11, 2015)

I feel like anyone who works in CO really wouldn't expect anything less from Aurora FD.


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## exodus (May 11, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> Omg... So what.
> 
> That's likely the tamest open mic **** talking I've ever heard.
> 
> ...





escapedcaliFF said:


> That's nothing. Obviously the female EMT felt she could possibly get a lawsuit and contacted the media. Once it blows over she will probably be embarrassed and humiliated into going to a different agency.





escapedcaliFF said:


> Political correctness is running wild in this country. I remember when the army started pushing EO and mandatory sexual harrasment classes what a joke. So what a joke was made but do you honestly think he meant harm??





escapedcaliFF said:


> Also if she has that reputation obviously a liuetant making a joke about it is not doing any harm to her image in that department.



All of the opinions are pretty irrelevant here. It does not matter that she got her feelings hurt, it does not matter that he wasn't being PC.  What matters is that the Lt who is in a leadership and supervisory position harassed another employee. It does not matter that it was not meant to be public, it was still harassment.

While the privateness or the severity should play a role in how hard the punishment is, it shouldn't not play a role in whether or not the Lt IS punished. It is undeniable that he broke harassment OGL's and should be punished.


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## triemal04 (May 11, 2015)

exodus said:


> All of the opinions are pretty irrelevant here.


But they aren't, that's the thing, and something that people forget when this rather broad topic comes up.  While the Lt got caught saying something that most would admit was innapropriate to one extent or another, and does qualify for some discipline to one extent or another, the feeling that people, or this country in general, has gone overboard on being PC is justified. 

You will never, ever EVER make everyone happy with what is said, and you will ALWAYS be able to find someone that is offended by something you say each time you open your mouth.  While the above situation isn't the best example, there does come a point when we, as people, a profession, and a country just have to shrug and say "oh well, that's just to bad that your feelings got hurt," and move on.  Making a big deal out of what is, more often than not, piddly crap, trying to please everyone, and being so terrified of offending anyone is so flippin' counterproductive.

Look...I just did it myself...


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## exodus (May 11, 2015)

There's a difference though, these comments were made specifically to slander and defame the EMT specifically.  This isn't the type of example where someone says something and it gets taken the wrong way. The Lt's intent with those comments was to harass her; just not to her face.


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## escapedcaliFF (May 12, 2015)

The second someone claims a hostile work environment everyone freaks out no matter the serverity. I was making a point that political correctness in this country is out of control. There is a double standard nowadays. Case in point look at the lesbian fire captain who made her engine go be part of the gay parade and anyone who didn't go was written up. She never had to answer to it. It's taking the fire crew bringing a class action lawsuit for anything to get done. I would rate that well beyond the seriousness of this. However if it was a female Lt. making these comments about a male EMT nothing would be done or said.


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## Tigger (May 12, 2015)

escapedcaliFF said:


> However if it was a female Lt. making these comments about a male EMT nothing would be done or said.


If it was reported, it absolutely would be dealt with. Municipalities cannot afford to ignore sexual harassment claims. Now whether or not a male FF would feel comfortable reporting it and bucking the traditional firehouse culture (see what I did there?), is a completely different question.

It's painful that people keep defending this incident. Say what you want about political correctness, this is not and would never have been correct.


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## escapedcaliFF (May 12, 2015)

Tigger said:


> If it was reported, it absolutely would be dealt with. Municipalities cannot afford to ignore sexual harassment claims. Now whether or not a male FF would feel comfortable reporting it and bucking the traditional firehouse culture (see what I did there?), is a completely different question.
> 
> It's painful that people keep defending this incident. Say what you want about political correctness, this is not and would never have been correct.



I'm only defending it from a standpoint that complaing to the media is never a solution. I'm not saying it was ok for the Lt. said but I hate when outside forces inject themselves into situations. I think the EMT should of reported it properly through the department EO and of not gone to the media. I just hate the fact that now that it's been brought to the media outside forces will now force the department to take actions againts the Lt. that will ruin his career. If the EMT reported it properly odds are it would of been handled as outlined in the departments sexual harrasment guidelines by mandatory classes for the Lt. or whatever else they deem appropriate.


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## Tigger (May 12, 2015)

And you know that the EMT in question went straight to the media because how exactly? Nowhere in the story does it say how this came out, and to suggest that she is somehow to blame for it coming out is also disingenuous. Furthermore, there is nothing to say that the fire department has handled this unfairly. 

That's ok. You keep stay in your hole and keep digging. It's almost big enough now.


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## escapedcaliFF (May 12, 2015)

Tigger said:


> And you know that the EMT in question went straight to the media because how exactly? Nowhere in the story does it say how this came out, and to suggest that she is somehow to blame for it coming out is also disingenuous. Furthermore, there is nothing to say that the fire department has handled this unfairly.
> 
> That's ok. You keep stay in your hole and keep digging. It's almost big enough now.



Just making a point. We don't know the whole story cause the media never tells the whole story. I am asuming things as she was quoted by the media. For all we known the Lt.'s engineer went to the media. We can arm chair quarterback it all day. Just keep in mind there are always two sides to a story and the media will never tell the whole thing as they are driven by ratings.


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## SandpitMedic (May 12, 2015)

This forum is getting really really whiney lately.

People get on their side of an issue. Then they defend it vehemently without even considering alternative points of view - observably the indoctrinated liberal points of view - and then proceed to make insults and counter accusations that their opposition is entrenching themselves, baseless, irrelevant, ignorant, or arrogant.

I'm getting sick of it. Quit being pansies. You (that's a general you) are not always right, and your opinions (while your entitled to them) are sometimes ridiculous. That said, they should be respected by your peers even if they are obtuse. Not saying we all need to be playing patty-cake here, and I love and encourage a great debate, but there is a real big world outside of the little minds on this forum, metaphorically speaking.

Some of us need to remember that and get down off of those high horses.


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## SandpitMedic (May 12, 2015)

I'm not stepping into that mud. I'm just saying. You all need to respect each other's opinions, and realize everyone is not going to conform to your ideas, ideals, or agenda - whatever they may be. 

Defending someone is fine- taking to the level of insulting another to do so is not fine. What you so vigorously define as sexual harassment is subjective! Remember that. Some of us call that BS and remember the old adage: sticks and stones.


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## escapedcaliFF (May 12, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> I'm not stepping into that mud. I'm just saying. You all need to respect each other's opinions, and realize everyone is not going to conform to your ideas, ideals, or agenda - whatever they may be.
> 
> Defending someone is fine- taking to the level of insulting another to do so is not fine. What you so vigorously define as sexual harassment is subjective! Remember that. Some of us call that BS and remember the old adage: sticks and stones.



Don't you mean "sticks and stones will break your bones but high explosives solve everything?"


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## EMTinCT (May 12, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> I'm not stepping into that mud. I'm just saying. You all need to respect each other's opinions, and realize everyone is not going to conform to your ideas, ideals, or agenda - whatever they may be.
> 
> Defending someone is fine- taking to the level of insulting another to do so is not fine. What you so vigorously define as sexual harassment is subjective! Remember that. Some of us call that BS and remember the old adage: sticks and stones.


Are you saying that someone's opinion that sexual harassment on the job is OK and should be respected? Are you implying that a fire lieutenant who openly makes sexual remarks about coworkers should be respected and his "opinion" (aka sexual harassment, hostile workplace) is fine?


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## escapedcaliFF (May 12, 2015)

EMTinCT said:


> Are you saying that someone's opinion that sexual harassment on the job is OK and should be respected? Are you implying that a fire lieutenant who openly makes sexual remarks about coworkers should be respected and his "opinion" (aka sexual harassment, hostile workplace) is fine?



I don't remember anyone saying sexual harrasment was fine. You are definitely taking things out of context.


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## LACoGurneyjockey (May 12, 2015)

escapedcaliFF said:


> That's nothing. Obviously the female EMT felt she could possibly get a lawsuit and contacted the media. Once it blows over she will probably be embarrassed and humiliated into going to a different agency.


Mkay, so let's shame her into leaving her employment. Sounds good.



escapedcaliFF said:


> Political correctness is running wild in this country. I remember when the army started pushing EO and mandatory sexual harrasment classes what a joke.


Got it, sexual harassment is a joke. 



escapedcaliFF said:


> I have given the lecture to a EMT we had that was a female who felt she was left out and I spent time trying to make her feel welcomed.


"But I have a black friend, I'm not racist" seems to apply here. 

So you didn't say it was fine. But you did say it was a joke. 
If we were taking things out of context, it would look like this. 


escapedcaliFF said:


> high explosives solve everything"


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## escapedcaliFF (May 12, 2015)

LACoGurneyjockey said:


> Mkay, so let's shame her into leaving her employment. Sounds good.
> 
> 
> Got it, sexual harassment is a joke.
> ...



I never said sexual harrasment was a joke. I was saying those classes the army had where a joke I never said I personally would shame her into quiting.


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## SandpitMedic (May 12, 2015)

Sticks&Stones. Plain and simple.

The U.S. EEOC defined sexual harassment as follows: (bold is mine)

*Sexual Harassment*
It is unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person’s sex. Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature.

Harassment does not have to be of a sexual nature, however, and can include offensive remarks about a person’s sex. For example, it is illegal to harass a woman by making offensive comments about women in general.

Both victim and the harasser can be either a woman or a man, and the victim and harasser can be the same sex.

*Although the law doesn’t prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious*, harassment is illegal when it is so *frequent* or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being fired or demoted).

The harasser can be the victim's supervisor, a supervisor in another area, a co-worker, or someone who is not an employee of the employer, such as a client or customer.
_____________

SO! As stated. I view the remark as a one time off-handed vulgar comment , not as a sexually harassing remark.

It is subjective. And you guys should not get your panties all wadded up.

Am I saying a true blue leader should be saying those things: NO!

Am I saying that sometimes people make mistakes, and that sometimes some people just need to move on and not get so offended by the slightest things.

Apparently no one else remembers the adage I was referring to:

Sticks and stones will break your bones, *but words will never hurt you!

And newsflash! People (men :]) are going to say stupid stuff. All the time. Regardless of whether it's illegal or against policy. 
Is that right?! No. Does that matter? Also, no!

I challenge any one of you to set up some kind of recording in your ready room or station and within about 5 minutes you'll likely have enough "sexual harassment" material to put on a seminar. 
*


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## Chimpie (May 12, 2015)

YAY! Chimpie gets to clean out another thread.

*UPDATE: *The thread has been cleaned up and name calling and off topic posts have been removed. If the thread continues to go down that path, the thread will be closed and warnings issued.

Please abide by our rules (emtlife.com/rules) and our expected standards of conduct.


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## Mufasa556 (May 13, 2015)

Update:



> AURORA, Colo. - A lieutenant with the Aurora Fire Department has chosen to retire after an investigation determined he was guilty of misconduct due to lewd comments he made about a female EMT. The comments were recorded because a radio microphone was left open during an incident in March.



http://www.thedenverchannel.com/new...s-opts-to-retire-after-findings-of-misconduct


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## triemal04 (May 13, 2015)

exodus said:


> There's a difference though, these comments were made specifically to slander and defame the EMT specifically.  This isn't the type of example where someone says something and it gets taken the wrong way. The Lt's intent with those comments was to harass her; just not to her face.


It has nothing to do with being taken the wrong way; the problem isn't that someone misunderstands a comment and gets offended, the problem is that people get offended (or claim to) at the drop of a hat these days, and we, as a society, are pandering to that, instead of collectively rolling our eyes and telling people to quit whining and grow up.

Again, the incident here isn't the best example of that; what the guy said would be understood by pretty much all reasonable people to have been inappropriate given the setting, and he is deserving of some type of discipline (and apparently would have got it except he retired instead).  But the public response to this is far out of proportion to the actual incident.  Which, quite sadly, is the standard thing to do these days.

As is the tactic of saying that opinions that differ from the offended party don't matter.  For this type of problem (being ultra PC vs not) the opinions of people who don't get offended easily, if at all, are just as important as the people who do and claim harrassment or mental cruelty or what have you for any and every percieved slight.


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## Kevinf (May 13, 2015)

I would think calling another emergency worker the village bicycle is worthy of getting offended about past, present, or future. He better hope he can prove it if she sues for defamation/slander. Aside from that... why is it worthy of comment? Are all of us not allowed sexual freedom? Just not the women in emergency services? Would this Lt have called a man "the village bicycle"? I doubt it. If you are going to say something that could get you in a world of trouble if said publicly, you damn well better be sure it's said in private! This is the problem and fault of the lieutenant and nobody else. I wouldn't expect to keep my job if I called another person the village bicycle for all to hear. 

I don't think people get offended too easily these days either. Back in the day, his comment would have ended with pistols at dawn when her family found out what he said. Let's keep it real. He slandered a colleague and it wound up on national news because it's a stupid and lousy thing to say about anyone.

Better for us guys too, this knucklehead is discouraging women from being sexually open (that's bad for us gentlemen, no?). Good riddance!


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