# Holy Mother of god... found the perfect jump kit for the whackers



## TransportJockey (Nov 29, 2010)

http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=33826&start=0&hilit=STOMP

I'm simply amazed at what this guy with absolutely no formal training has.


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## JPINFV (Nov 29, 2010)

http://emtlife.com/showthread.php?p=148492

...but that guy really does deserve his own thread.


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## Veneficus (Nov 29, 2010)

jtpaintball70 said:


> http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=33826&start=0&hilit=STOMP
> 
> I'm simply amazed at what this guy with absolutely no formal training has.



yea, and just like blackwater he can go around indiscriminantly killing people with it.


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## TransportJockey (Nov 29, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> http://emtlife.com/showthread.php?p=148492
> 
> ...but that guy really does deserve his own thread.



Whoops... I even posted on that thread and I forgot about seeing it there


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## Sassafras (Nov 29, 2010)

I really hope that epinepherine is his own prescription.  

But at least he can beat the zombies over the head with that pack if they attack.


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## MRE (Nov 29, 2010)

I wonder if he can even lift that thing.

And how did he get all of that RX stuff?  

The worst thing is that everybody commenting on that forum is congratulating him and even making suggestions on other things he should be carrying.  They're all crazy.

Edit: Just re-read the initial post.  With a bag full of ALS supplies and meds and no formal medical training this guy makes the following statement: "I don’t currently have a pulse oximeter (having never received training in the use of one)"  The one item that he probably couldn't hurt or kill someone with he doesn't have because he isn't trained to use it.


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## TransportJockey (Nov 29, 2010)

He said all the Rx stuff was gotten legally from an MD... including the 300mg of MS :S


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## MRE (Nov 29, 2010)

jtpaintball70 said:


> He said all the Rx stuff was gotten legally from an MD... including the 300mg of MS :S



So he found an MD as crazy as he is.  That can't be good for anybody.


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## Veneficus (Nov 29, 2010)

jtpaintball70 said:


> He said all the Rx stuff was gotten legally from an MD... including the 300mg of MS :S



Was it Michael Jackson's doctor? Maybe he could get some propofol too. 

You know, incase somebody has trouble sleeping.


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## rwik123 (Nov 29, 2010)

He says he'd only use it on family or friends, but he's prob just kill them trying to intubate them. All that ALS gear makes me cringe 

Medical porn though


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## Motojunkie (Nov 29, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> yea, and just like blackwater he can go around indiscriminantly killing people with it.



Glad I'm not the only one who noticed that . . .


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## rwik123 (Nov 29, 2010)

i also love how the legit medics on the sight have far less than him

http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=25671&start=0


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## JPINFV (Nov 29, 2010)

Obligatory picture


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## lampnyter (Nov 29, 2010)

thats insane


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## fast65 (Nov 29, 2010)

That's just ridiculous. I almost feel like signing up over there just ask him what he expects to do with all those things having absolutely no medical training; but I have to study and that's just too time consuming.


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## Cameron (Nov 29, 2010)

*Tries to speak*
Uh....gah....duh................
*Is speechless.*

No formal training?! 
I thought we had some whackers on this sight....


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## Veneficus (Nov 29, 2010)

He's gonna save lives...

You know, by intubating somebody in a war zone and then bagging them till his hands get tired, and the cavalry arrives to whisk the patient off to the nearest trauma center and he will be a big hero.

Don't bother signing up, "There's no point wasting time...preaching to the perverted."


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## lampnyter (Nov 29, 2010)

how the :censored::censored::censored::censored: did he get prescription meds


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## fast65 (Nov 29, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> He's gonna save lives...
> 
> You know, by intubating somebody in a war zone and then bagging them till his hands get tired, and the cavalry arrives to whisk the patient off to the nearest trauma center and he will be a big hero.
> 
> Don't bother signing up, "There's no point wasting time...preaching to the perverted."



Yup, that's the conclusion I've come to, my time is much better spent studying for finals


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## Cameron (Nov 29, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> He's gonna save lives...
> 
> You know, by intubating somebody in a war zone and then bagging them till his hands get tired, and the cavalry arrives to whisk the patient off to the nearest trauma center and he will be a big hero.
> 
> Don't bother signing up, "There's no point wasting time...preaching to the perverted."



He'll probably try to put it through the nose knowing him. I mean he wouldn't know better, no medical knowledge. ^_^


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## TransportJockey (Nov 29, 2010)

Cameron said:


> He'll probably try to put it through the nose knowing him. I mean he wouldn't know better, no medical knowledge. ^_^



If it got in the trachea it would work just fine. Nasotracheal intubation is a common field procedure for medics in a lot of places.


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## fast65 (Nov 29, 2010)

Cameron said:


> He'll probably try to put it through the nose knowing him. I mean he wouldn't know better, no medical knowledge. ^_^



Can you say "dental trauma"?


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## Cameron (Nov 29, 2010)

jtpaintball70 said:


> If it got in the trachea it would work just fine. Nasotracheal intubation is a common field procedure for medics in a lot of places.



Most people I know in the civilian field go through the mouth, I know most military uses the nostrols... So I guess its up in the air with this guy, He is using a Blackwater kit, he may think he is military too! :wacko:


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## MassEMT-B (Nov 29, 2010)

What the hell? This guy is nuts. I wonder what made him think having any of this would be useful without training. If I was crazy enough to start a zombie apocalypse kit I wouldn't get ALS stuff I don't know how to use h34r:


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## fast65 (Nov 29, 2010)

Cameron said:


> Most people I know in the civilian field go through the mouth, I know most military uses the nostrols... So I guess its up in the air with this guy, He is using a Blackwater kit, he may think he is military too! :wacko:


Well as far as I know nasal intubation isn't real common, but it is a skill that paramedics are taught. When you say the military uses the nostrils, are you thinking of an NPA? I'm pretty sure the only medics that actually intubate in the military are special forces, but I'm not sure.


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## Motojunkie (Nov 29, 2010)

His certifications:



> Back to the original point of your thread, I currently have Red Cross certifications in Standard First Aid, CPR/AED for the Professional Rescuer, and WFASRM (Wilderness First Aid, Safety and Risk Management). I had originally planned to attend the 180-hour Wilderness EMT program offered through the Wilderness Medical Institute/NOLS last fall, but had to postpone due to having to be out of the country on business. I hope to find an opportunity to get out for this before the end of the year.
> 
> Beyond having access to a neighborhood full of physicians during evenings and weekends, my wife was originally in an RN program before changing her major, and several of her aunts, uncles, and cousins are physicians, surgeons, one dentist, and two OB/GYN's.


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## Cameron (Nov 29, 2010)

fast65 said:


> Well as far as I know nasal intubation isn't real common, but it is a skill that paramedics are taught. When you say the military uses the nostrils, are you thinking of an NPA? I'm pretty sure the only medics that actually intubate in the military are special forces, but I'm not sure.



Hmmm, whats the difference of NPA and intubation? NPA = Nasal Passage Airway, Right? Has the same purpose?


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## fast65 (Nov 29, 2010)

Cameron said:


> Hmmm, whats the difference of NPA and intubation? NPA = Nasal Passage Airway, Right? Has the same purpose?



No, an NPA is a nasopharyngeal airway, it's just a rubber tube that guys up the nose and the distal tip sits in the pharynx; it's an airway adjunct. Intubation uses an endotracheal tube that actual goes down the trachea; it's a definitive airway.

NPA

ETT


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## TransportJockey (Nov 29, 2010)

Cameron said:


> Hmmm, whats the difference of NPA and intubation? NPA = Nasal Passage Airway, Right? Has the same purpose?



NPA= Nasal Pharyngeal Airway. It only helps open the airway, doesn't secure it like an ET tube. Nasal intubation actually threads a tube down the trachea and it's secured at the vocal cords with an inflated balloon.





Those are NPAs




That is an endotracheal tube.

And the military doesn't tend to intubate in the field anymore, they've gone to the King Airway a lot.


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## Cameron (Nov 29, 2010)

fast65 said:


> No, an NPA is a nasopharyngeal airway, it's just a rubber tube that guys up the nose and the distal tip sits in the pharynx; it's an airway adjunct. Intubation uses an endotracheal tube that actual goes down the trachea; it's a definitive airway.
> 
> NPA
> 
> ETT



Thanks for the clarification... the old saying is true, "You learn something new every day!"


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## TransportJockey (Nov 29, 2010)

fast65 said:


> Well as far as I know nasal intubation isn't real common, but it is a skill that paramedics are taught. When you say the military uses the nostrils, are you thinking of an NPA? I'm pretty sure the only medics that actually intubate in the military are special forces, but I'm not sure.



Sorry I meant commonly trained in.


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## Cameron (Nov 29, 2010)

jtpaintball70 said:


> NPA= Nasal Pharyngeal Airway. It only helps open the airway, doesn't secure it like an ET tube. Nasal intubation actually threads a tube down the trachea and it's secured at the vocal cords with an inflated balloon.



How do you know when you have enough air in the ballon?


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## fast65 (Nov 29, 2010)

Cameron said:


> How do you know when you have enough air in the ballon?



Well it's not like a Combitube where it tells you specifically how much air too inject, but I've been taught to just inject about 10-15 mL of air into the balloon.


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## TransportJockey (Nov 29, 2010)

Cameron said:


> How do you know when you have enough air in the ballon?


You don't hear an air leak in the epigastric region. They commonly hold 10cc or so.


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## Cameron (Nov 29, 2010)

fast65 said:


> Well it's not like a Combitube where it tells you specifically how much air too inject, but I've been taught to just inject about 10-15 mL of air into the balloon.





jtpaintball70 said:


> You don't hear an air leak in the epigastric region. They commonly hold 10cc or so.



So 10-15 is the amount to shoot for?


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## fast65 (Nov 29, 2010)

Cameron said:


> So 10-15 is the amount to shoot for?



10 mL is what I use. Are you a basic student?


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## TransportJockey (Nov 29, 2010)

Cameron said:


> So 10-15 is the amount to shoot for?



10 is what I start with as well.


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## Veneficus (Nov 29, 2010)

jtpaintball70 said:


> Sorry I meant commonly trained in.



When devising a trauma care program for field medics, one of the draft revisions from years ago that I saw was that the NPA was preferred as it was easy to place, required minimal maintenence, and in field conditions intubation placement or maintenence was not practical. 

As a disclaimer I was never a military medic, nor was I ever in combat, but just looking at the logistics of it:

You are in a gunfight, the scene is definately not safe   and therefore not exactly conducive to all kinds of invasive procedures.

You have to get to the casualty, there may be multiple.
You then you have to get him/you out of direct fire. (perhaps by yourself as "the best first aid is superior fire power" as I once heard from a SF medic.)

So if you use a King or ET tube, how are you going to bag this person/people?

It doesn't seem very wise to start pulling the fighting folk off the line to tend to wounded. At least not if you want to survive the day. 

Triage for many years has advocated that positioning an airway, which is really what an NPA is designed for, is one of the most basic and useful interventions. 

I am sure many of us can attest that even in the civillian world, ET tubes are a risk everytime a patient is moved. From direct fire, to a fall back position, to the evac, to the first doctor, to perhaps another area, seems like a lot of moves for tubes.

Perhpas some of the members here with actual experience would expand upon this a little?


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## fast65 (Nov 29, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> When devising a trauma care program for field medics, one of the draft revisions from years ago that I saw was that the NPA was preferred as it was easy to place, required minimal maintenence, and in field conditions intubation placement or maintenence was not practical.
> 
> As a disclaimer I was never a military medic, nor was I ever in combat, but just looking at the logistics of it:
> 
> ...



All very good points, the only time I was actually thinking an SF medic would intubate would be a medevac where they're not taking fire, however, I didn't think of all the moving they've got to do, that is a HUGE risk of tube displacement.


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## Meursault (Nov 29, 2010)

Hey, there's no reason to criticize this guy. If there ever is a major disaster in his area, he's provided a great cache of medical supplies for any trained persons willing to step over his dead body and take it.


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## Cameron (Nov 29, 2010)

fast65 said:


> 10 mL is what I use. Are you a basic student?



CFR Student. 
Do classes in high school count too? Haha, Biomedical Science if so.




Veneficus said:


> As a disclaimer I was never a military medic, nor was I ever in combat, but just looking at the logistics of it:



Ill ask on of the HM3's (Corpsman for Navy) Tonight when I talk to them. Find out if they do or do not, most likely not.


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## Aidey (Nov 29, 2010)

I wasn't aware that there were people out there that took this zombie stuff that seriously, I had to look the term up but "PAW scenario" is "Post apocalyptic world scenario". Yeash.


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## TransportJockey (Nov 29, 2010)

Aidey said:


> I wasn't aware that there were people out there that took this zombie stuff that seriously, I had to look the term up but "PAW scenario" is "Post apocalyptic world scenario". Yeash.



The other term is EOTWAWKI or End of the World as We Know It. Both are pretty common on the gun forums I hang out on  Although I just started looking around Zombie Hunters...


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## SanDiegoEmt7 (Nov 29, 2010)

I assumed that was a military guy's pack... then I realized what forum I was on.


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## ffemt8978 (Nov 29, 2010)

MrConspiracy said:


> Hey, there's no reason to criticize this guy. If there ever is a major disaster in his area, he's provided a great cache of medical supplies for any trained persons willing to step over his dead body and take it.



Post of the thread right there!!!!

I'm thinking the DEA may want to have a chat with this guy and the docs that "legally prescribed" him some of those meds.


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## rwik123 (Nov 29, 2010)

Cameron said:


> He'll probably try to put it through the nose knowing him. I mean he wouldn't know better, no medical knowledge. ^_^



and neither do you

nasal intubation along with endotracheal and even crics are viable options depending on the situation 

yes this guys someone of a tool for keeping all this gear without the training, but he prob has more knowledge than you and your laughing at him when you dont know the difference between a NPA and an ET tube

like someone said, it'd be useful in a disaster.. but minus all the ALS crap and more basic first aid material


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## TransportJockey (Nov 29, 2010)

On the plus side, that vial of MS is worth a LOT of money


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## fast65 (Nov 29, 2010)

rwik123 said:


> and neither do you
> 
> nasal intubation along with endotracheal and even crics are viable options depending on the situation
> 
> ...


Was it necessary to be rude to the kid? Don't think so.

Oh yeah Cameron, weren't you the kid that posted an intro thread last week, you're still I'm high school, right?


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## JPINFV (Nov 29, 2010)

rwik123 said:


> and neither do you
> 
> nasal intubation along with endotracheal and even crics are viable options depending on the situation
> 
> ...



Here's the problem. In a disaster situation, how many people are going to be available to oversee an intubated patient (including, in his case, manually bagging the patient) as well as have the equipment for short term care? Suctioning through a V-Vac is going to get tiring fast and then there's things like preventing or treating pneumonia which, in that situation, the patient WILL get. The reality is in the situation where those are useful, the patients are already dead. It's just a question of if the patient will die NOW, or die 5 days from now while sucking up limited group resources. When the zombie apocalypse comes, I'd rather have a 9 mm through the temple than an ET tube.


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## JPINFV (Nov 29, 2010)

ffemt8978 said:


> I'm thinking the DEA may want to have a chat with this guy and the docs that "legally prescribed" him some of those meds.



I think it's going to largely depend on the patient-physician relationship. My father get's a bottle of Vicodin every year or two and uses it PRN. When he kills the bottle, he goes back and gets more. If it's a case of several physicians providing opioid prescriptions or the patient going through them fast, then there's a problem. 1 vial? Meh.


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## rwik123 (Nov 29, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Here's the problem. In a disaster situation, how many people are going to be available to oversee an intubated patient (including, in his case, manually bagging the patient) as well as have the equipment for short term care? Suctioning through a V-Vac is going to get tiring fast and then there's things like preventing or treating pneumonia which, in that situation, the patient WILL get. The reality is in the situation where those are useful, the patients are already dead. It's just a question of if the patient will die NOW, or die 5 days from now while sucking up limited group resources. When the zombie apocalypse comes, I'd rather have a 9 mm through the temple than an ET tube.



very true.. maybe its just the "coolness" factor by having a few Et tubes and a laryngoscope with him

the thing that i dont get is the IV stuff.. how is going to calculate the flow rates ect with no prior knowledge, even a correct IV stick


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## EMSLaw (Nov 29, 2010)

rwik123 said:


> very true.. maybe its just the "coolness" factor by having a few Et tubes and a laryngoscope with him
> 
> the thing that i dont get is the IV stuff.. how is going to calculate the flow rates ect with no prior knowledge, even a correct IV stick



The laryngoscope is at least useful in the case of an airway obstruction, when removing the obstruction with Magill forceps is effective definitive care.  Though I'm not sure he was carrying the forceps, or would know how to use them.  Not like any of it is particularly complicated.


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## fortsmithman (Nov 29, 2010)

I think the dude has more supplies than some services.


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## EMT11KDL (Nov 30, 2010)

Am I the only one thinking that he missed a very important part of his kit!  Where is the pocket AED??? But he did say he plans on getting it.  

But wow, not sure if everyone saw this, 56 thousand dollars to make this kit.  I wish I had the type of money to just throw away on something that I would NEVER use.  Wow, his kit is worth more money, than I make in a year!


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## EMT11KDL (Nov 30, 2010)

fortsmithman said:


> I think the dude has more supplies than some services.



this kit alone cost over 50 percent of my volli agency yearly budget..


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## SanDiegoEmt7 (Nov 30, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Here's the problem. In a disaster situation, how many people are going to be available to oversee an intubated patient (including, in his case, manually bagging the patient) as well as have the equipment for short term care? Suctioning through a V-Vac is going to get tiring fast and then there's things like preventing or treating pneumonia which, in that situation, the patient WILL get. The reality is in the situation where those are useful, the patients are already dead. It's just a question of if the patient will die NOW, or die 5 days from now while sucking up limited group resources. When the zombie apocalypse comes, I'd rather have a 9 mm through the temple than an ET tube.



I think what you are getting at is covered by these:

Rule 5: No Attachments

Rule 17: Don't Be a Hero


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## MrBrown (Nov 30, 2010)

Now Brown knows who to get a spare Thomas Pack off of 

That is just a wee bit worrying come on Brown says he has a tactical laryngascope set but no gum elastic bougie? WTF?


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## EMT11KDL (Nov 30, 2010)

> I'd rather have a* 9 mm* through the temple than an ET tube.



I have a problem with this.  Can we change this to either a 50 cal or Shotgun with slugs, .44 mag. something done those lines i would like a lot better than a 9 mm.  

After a guy get shot 36 times by 9 mm rounds, i decided right than and there NEVER will i own a 9 mm.


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## ffemt8978 (Nov 30, 2010)

EMT11KDL said:


> But wow, not sure if everyone saw this, 56 thousand dollars to make this kit.  I wish I had the type of money to just throw away on something that I would NEVER use.  Wow, his kit is worth more money, than I make in a year!



Now stop to consider that the original post in that thread was in 2008, which means that some of that stuff has expired and needs to be replaced.


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## EMT11KDL (Nov 30, 2010)

ffemt8978 said:


> Now stop to consider that the original post in that thread was in 2008, which means that some of that stuff has expired and needs to be replaced.



I dont want to think about that. it just makes me even more sad about how much money he has to build this kit, and I see many departments across the United States including my own, having to fight for grants to get supplies, and upgrades of there current equipment.  Also, to be able to update everyones training on a yearly basis.


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## HasTy (Nov 30, 2010)

Aidey said:


> I wasn't aware that there were people out there that took this zombie stuff that seriously, I had to look the term up but "PAW scenario" is "Post apocalyptic world scenario". Yeash.


I must be a dunce but I was reading it as Prisoner of War Scenario now what I am trying to figure out what a BoB is...



SanDiegoEmt7 said:


> I assumed that was a military guy's pack... then I realized what forum I was on.


San Diego...I have now tried to kill your avatar 4 times on one page of this thread....


ffemt8978 said:


> Post of the thread right there!!!!
> 
> I'm thinking the DEA may want to have a chat with this guy and the docs that "legally prescribed" him some of those meds.


Completely agree ffemt8978....there are definitely somethings to consider there...


ffemt8978 said:


> Now stop to consider that the original post in that thread was in 2008, which means that some of that stuff has expired and needs to be replaced.


and once again +1 for that I had not even thought about that part....


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## Handsome Robb (Nov 30, 2010)

Dudes gonna kill someone. Thats ridiculous.


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## JPINFV (Nov 30, 2010)

EMT11KDL said:


> I have a problem with this.  Can we change this to either a 50 cal or Shotgun with slugs, .44 mag. something done those lines i would like a lot better than a 9 mm.
> 
> After a guy get shot 36 times by 9 mm rounds, i decided right than and there NEVER will i own a 9 mm.



If someone can't provide a proper coup de grâce with anything larger than a 22, I don't want you providing it at all. Heck, even with a 22 you should be able to inflict enough damage fast enough to put someone out of their misery.


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## JPINFV (Nov 30, 2010)

HasTy said:


> I must be a dunce but I was reading it as Prisoner of War Scenario now what I am trying to figure out what a BoB is...



"Bug out bag." Basically a supply kit that you can grab quickly as you're running out the door. In reality, anyone in an area prone to surprise disasters (e.g. earthquakes, tornadoes, etc) should have a basic supply kit that's easily accessible that they can pick up as they're evacuating their house.


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## EMT11KDL (Nov 30, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> If someone can't provide a proper coup de grâce with anything larger than a 22, I don't want you providing it at all. Heck, even with a 22 you should be able to inflict enough damage fast enough to put someone out of their misery.



Well I figured they would be able too, but guess you cant always trust your local SWAT Team and Police force.  Yes this guy was shot by the SWAT team


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## JPINFV (Nov 30, 2010)

EMT11KDL said:


> Well I figured they would be able too, but guess you cant always trust your local SWAT Team and Police force.  Yes this guy was shot by the SWAT team




The SWAT team and police force have no business issuing a coup de grace outside of an execution by firing squad. However if I'm bitten during the Zombie Apocalypse, feel free to end me, or give me the means of ending myself.


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## HasTy (Nov 30, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> "Bug out bag." Basically a supply kit that you can grab quickly as you're running out the door. In reality, anyone in an area prone to surprise disasters (e.g. earthquakes, tornadoes, etc) should have a basic supply kit that's easily accessible that they can pick up as they're evacuating their house.



I have one of those just never called it a Bug out Bag or a BoB I have always called it my Oh :censored::censored::censored::censored: bag


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## lightsandsirens5 (Nov 30, 2010)

HasTy said:


> I have one of those just never called it a Bug out Bag or a BoB I have always called it my Oh :censored::censored::censored::censored: bag



Ha ha ha! I usually call it my Go Kit.


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## LucidResq (Nov 30, 2010)

I have a loose collection of items that I refer to as my "get the hell outta dodge" kit.... actually it's mostly just the stuff that's accumulated in my trunk after 3 years of SAR.


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## LucidResq (Nov 30, 2010)

Actually, our dispatch center has very formal "Bug Out" procedures and official "Bug Out Bags." I know most centers probably have evacuation procedures but ours are very detailed and planned ever since we had a tornado in spitting distance that destroyed some businesses half a mile or less from our center.


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## lightsandsirens5 (Nov 30, 2010)

LucidResq said:


> I have a loose collection of items that I refer to as my "get the hell outta dodge" kit.... actually it's mostly just the stuff that's accumulated in my trunk after 3 years of SAR.



That works! Lol. The way I look at it is this, in most cases, if you are in a large scale disaster, and all you have time to grab is a single bag, things have already gone to heck and in all probability, you won't make it anyhow. So I'm like Lucid there. I have a loose collection of stuff I can get together in like 10 minutes that will keep me alive and fairly comfortable waaaaaay longer than the standard 72 hour bag. 

Ok, end thread hijack.


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## emt_irl (Nov 30, 2010)

wow thats just scary, besides the whole thinking zombies are real and they will kill us thing, a random joe whacker has built up this collection and has zero training beyond first aid amazes me....


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## Cameron (Nov 30, 2010)

He plays too much Nazi Zombie on Call Of Duty, that must be why he has this!
* Runs over to his downed partner while playing online, Presses and holds X to revive him *


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## fast65 (Nov 30, 2010)

Cameron said:


> He plays too much Nazi Zombie on Call Of Duty, that must be why he has this!
> * Runs over to his downed partner while playing online, Presses and holds X to revive him *



Is it sad that the zombies in COD scare me


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## EMDispatch (Nov 30, 2010)

EMT11KDL said:


> Am I the only one thinking that he missed a very important part of his kit!  Where is the pocket AED??? But he did say he plans on getting it.



If you look at their other thread, they now have a D cylinder, AED, and pulse-ox too.


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## Cameron (Nov 30, 2010)

fast65 said:


> Is it sad that the zombies in COD scare me



Just a little bit! Haha.


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## TraprMike (Nov 30, 2010)

anybody think to ask him to sign up here and explain this to us?? tht would be a good time.


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## rwik123 (Nov 30, 2010)

TraprMike said:


> anybody think to ask him to sign up here and explain this to us?? tht would be a good time.



It seems as though he explained his purpose well enough in his post, even if we don't seem to agree with it. It's laid right out.


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## C.T.E.M.R. (Nov 30, 2010)

That jumpkit is stocked better than an ambulance!  LOL


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## jnathan (Nov 30, 2010)

Hi there EMT Life users,

I'm affiliated with Zombie Squad (ZS) as more than just a user and therefore thought I would take a second to respond to this thread.

As already mentioned, the ZS forum thread that started this thread on EMT Life is 2 years old.  Also, the ZS forum post has been taken apart ad-nauseum and the original poster been given many, many pieces of _advice_.

Our forum is populated by individuals interested in preparedness.  Some of these individuals believe survivalism and preparedness to be the same thing, others don't.  And, while the forum uses a Zombies as a metaphor for preparedness (i.e. if you're prepared for zombies, you're prepared for anything), most users realize that the Zombies are just that, a metaphor.  

What may have been lost in all the discussion both on this forum and over on the ZS forum is that there may be situations where EMS is unavailable.  Clearly having supplies on-hand (appropriate to your level of training) is important.  Just as having some stored water, food, flashlights and radios is important.   

Like all forums, we've got our bright shining examples of great content and our fair share of not-so-great content.  Either way, we value the opinion of our users and encourage discussion.

The ZS Forums could certainly benefit from a larger population of EMS professionals and I encourage those of you with even a remote interest in preparedness to visit our forums.  Also, I encourage you to treat us with the same respect we'd treat you... to read before posting so as to get a sense of what we're all about.

I'm sure we can learn from each other.

-Jeff


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## JJR512 (Nov 30, 2010)

jnathan said:


> ...The ZS Forums could certainly benefit from a larger population of EMS professionals and I encourage those of you with even a remote interest in preparedness to visit our forums.  Also, I encourage you to treat us with the same respect we'd treat you... to read before posting so as to get a sense of what we're all about.
> 
> I'm sure we can learn from each other.
> 
> -Jeff



I did join up...Yesterday or the day before. Same user name. I'm still trying to soak in the vibes and get a sense of what's what. I'm glad you explained that most people there don't seriously believe in zombies, that it's used as a metaphor.


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## EMT11KDL (Nov 30, 2010)

JJR512 said:


> I did join up...Yesterday or the day before. Same user name. I'm still trying to soak in the vibes and get a sense of what's what. I'm glad you explained that most people there don't seriously believe in zombies, that it's used as a metaphor.



I also have the same user name.

they have brought in the Good Sam Act.  They are saying that he is allowed to do advanced procedures under this act.


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## rwik123 (Nov 30, 2010)

EMT11KDL said:


> I also have the same user name.
> 
> they have brought in the Good Sam Act.  They are saying that he is allowed to do advanced procedures under this act.



i think they are trying to say that if one has a cert and they practice advance skills, they can get in trouble, but if one doesnt have any certs, they wont be tried with gross endangerment or w/e...wrong either way


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## JPINFV (Nov 30, 2010)

JJR512 said:


> I did join up...Yesterday or the day before. Same user name. I'm still trying to soak in the vibes and get a sense of what's what. I'm glad you explained that most people there don't seriously believe in zombies, that it's used as a metaphor.



What? Zombies aren't real? I thought AMC's Walking Dead was a documentary and Zombieland was a How To guide (must remember the rules)!


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## JPINFV (Nov 30, 2010)

rwik123 said:


> i think they are trying to say that if one has a cert and they practice advance skills, they can get in trouble, but if one doesnt have any certs, they wont be tried with gross endangerment or w/e...wrong either way



Of course the other question is in an environment where these will be handy, what government is going to prosecute, if there's even one still functioning.


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## brentoli (Nov 30, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Of course the other question is in an environment where these will be handy, what government is going to prosecute, if there's even one still functioning.



From what I can gather, thats really the premise of everything they do there. Not a bad idea really. Of course we could get into the debate of how long would it take the government, or social order to reconstitute after an apocolypse type event. I think that might be a better discussion for there rather than here. 

Personally, I think hes got the wrong idea for the kit. In that type of situation there will be no "life saving". Whats the point of the intubation supplies with out a vent for long term care? If someone has a cardiac arrest in that "world" its still either going to be medical or traumatic. We all know how the trauma flow chart ends. Where would the supportive continuing care for the medical patient be? 

I see no problem in a well stocked personal/family clinic in a bag... but you have to be realistic in your capabilities and get the most out of your budget. 

In a world with no functional hospitials, if you stop breathing, sorry. Would I try basic care? Yes. But what if say - your wife has a medical cardiac arrest, you do a full code workup on her including an advanced airway... You get her back but she doesnt wake up.. all thats keeping her alive is your squeeze on the BVM every few seconds. Now what?

That equipment could be replaced and more useful items put in its place. Off the top of my head... antibiotics, fluids, bandaging, splinting. Things you are more likely to run into in that enviroment.


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## jnathan (Nov 30, 2010)

brentoli said:


> From what I can gather, thats really the premise of everything they do there. Not a bad idea really. Of course we could get into the debate of how long would it take the government, or social order to reconstitute after an apocolypse type event. I think that might be a better discussion for there rather than here.



_Some_ people are living out their survivalist fantasies on the Zombie Squad forums, undoubtedly.  There are plenty of other users who aren't.  Keep in mind that, as an organization, Zombie Squad is heavily invested in volunteering.  Of our twenty-some-odd chapters, each one independently runs charitable events (e.g. food drives, blood drives).  

For the ZS population that isn't preparing for the end of the world, we're preparing for the sorts of things we may face in our city/town/village - usually something weather related.  If you live somewhere with particularly inclement  weather,  you may be preparing for a localized regional disaster or something even larger in scope.

Regardless, preparedness is a mindset.  It leads to you making sure you have adequate smoke detectors for your home, working reliable (commercial) fire extinguishers, some stored food and water, well stocked first aid kits, illumination, the ability to communicate, etc and the skills to use your equipment.




brentoli said:


> Personally, I think hes got the wrong idea for the kit. In that type of situation there will be no "life saving". Whats the point of the intubation supplies with out a vent for long term care? If someone has a cardiac arrest in that "world" its still either going to be medical or traumatic. We all know how the trauma flow chart ends. Where would the supportive continuing care for the medical patient be?
> 
> I see no problem in a well stocked personal/family clinic in a bag... but you have to be realistic in your capabilities and get the most out of your budget.
> 
> ...



What you wrote above is excellent.  It's the type of contribution that would be valued on the ZS forums.  You might say that I'm hoping for a dose of reality to be delivered to the subset of members who are living out their post apocalyptic fantasies.

-Jeff


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## brentoli (Dec 1, 2010)

jnathan said:


> For the ZS population that isn't preparing for the end of the world, we're preparing for the sorts of things we may face in our city/town/village - usually something weather related.  If you live somewhere with particularly inclement  weather,  you may be preparing for a localized regional disaster or something even larger in scope.



Heck yes. There is no worse feeling than being unprepared for a disaster. I lived that out a few years back during a major ice storm. Paralized the town for a few days. No electricity, no travel, you get the point. I had just happened to stay over winter break to help work at the campus radio station. Had absolutely no where to go, eat, sleep. It sucked.

Am I still unprepared? Probably. But preparedness takes time and money. I lurk on your ZS forums with out an account, I've got some good information there. Just like any forum you have to do your own research and not take what people say for the gospel.


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## waltcallie (Dec 1, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> yea, and just like blackwater he can go around indiscriminantly killing people with it.



speaking as a ZS blogger (and fan), and ex blackwater employee, and a working EMT i feel i know a little more about this gentleman's kit than you do. if you would read about his intended use maybe you would understand to. but then again you are probably just feeling what i felt when i first saw it...jealously. as far as blackwater goes maybe you should once again know your subject matter before you go blathering on about whatever you heard on MSNBC. better yet, just keep your mouth shut if you are going to talk trash about anyone.


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## usalsfyre (Dec 1, 2010)

waltcallie said:


> speaking as a ZS blogger (and fan), and ex blackwater employee, and a working EMT i feel i know a little more about this gentleman's kit than you do. if you would read about his intended use maybe you would understand to. but then again you are probably just feeling what i felt when i first saw it...jealously. as far as blackwater goes maybe you should once again know your subject matter before you go blathering on about whatever you heard on MSNBC. better yet, just keep your mouth shut if you are going to talk trash about anyone.



I ask again, as I did in the last thread,where exactly do you plan on delivering the patient you've cric'd and is now on multiple medications in a post-apocolyptic world/asture environment? Somehow I think the local ICU will probably be closed for business or non-existent...

brentoli has a much better idea of what needs to be in that kind of kit.


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## Bullets (Dec 1, 2010)

usalsfyre said:


> I ask again, as I did in the last thread,where exactly do you plan on delivering the patient you've cric'd and is now on multiple medications in a post-apocolyptic world/asture environment? Somehow I think the local ICU will probably be closed for business.



What makes you think that!

 In a post apocalyptic world, there would be little use for many als skills past simple narcotic administration and iv access. We are talking bls splinting and bandage application, maybe some pain management and fluid replacement, D50...what other drugs would you need?


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## usalsfyre (Dec 1, 2010)

Bullets said:


> What makes you think that!
> 
> In a post apocalyptic world, there would be little use for many als skills past simple narcotic administration and iv access. We are talking bls splinting and bandage application, maybe some pain management and fluid replacement, D50...what other drugs would you need?



The only thing I would include here is the narcs should probably be PO, suturing capability would be useful and plaster splinting for a little more permanent splint would probably be good.


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## TransportJockey (Dec 1, 2010)

usalsfyre said:


> The only thing I would include here is the narcs should probably be PO, suturing capability would be useful and plaster splinting for a little more permanent splint would probably be good.



Orthoglass would be tailor made to that kind of a situation since all you need is it and water... and it packs down relatively small if you take it out of the big *** box.


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## jjesusfreak01 (Dec 3, 2010)

EMT11KDL said:


> I also have the same user name.
> 
> they have brought in the Good Sam Act.  They are saying that he is allowed to do advanced procedures under this act.



Depends on your definition of "allowed". In many states, the GS laws explicitly prevent liability if a person is acting within his training. So, if our zombie hating friend here decided to intubate a patient on the side of the road, he would be clear of liability so long as he did it correctly, it was indicated, and he had been trained to do so. What is important to note is that this does not prevent him from facing a legal charge of practicing medicine without a license. 

On another note, I enjoyed looking over his kit, but wonder about the necessity of Fluorescein. Most of his kit is treatment oriented, but Fluorescein is a diagnostic tool of very limited use, and is probably not a good fit for a survival kit, but what do I know. I actually made a wilderness first aid kit when I knew I was going to be acting as a medic (solely for emergencies) on a mission trip in the mountains of Guatemala. I thought I was cool with my clove oil and sam splint.


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## brentoli (Dec 3, 2010)

jjesusfreak01 said:


> Depends on your definition of "allowed". In many states, the GS laws explicitly prevent liability if a person is acting within his training. So, if our zombie hating friend here decided to intubate a patient on the side of the road, he would be clear of liability so long as he did it correctly, it was indicated, and he had been trained to do so. What is important to note is that this does not prevent him from facing a legal charge of practicing medicine without a license.



I don't remember if this was posted here or there, and frankly I am a little bit lazy to look. But here is a breakdown of laws by state:

http://www.cprinstructor.com/legal.htm


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## EMDispatch (Dec 3, 2010)

Reading through that whole thread, I have big problems...

I understand reasoning behind developing a kit like this for worst-case scenarios, but:

1. The OP states he takes it out with him to the range and on hikes.
2. The OP purchased much of it (particularly the RXs) under the guise of treating himself out on the hike after suffering injuries that would prevent him from likely being able to.
3. I find some of the statements about what constitutes training for the equipment to be beyond disturbing.
4. Finally, despite the scenarios proposed for creating the kit, everyone still talks about stabilizing the person till help arrives.


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## jjesusfreak01 (Dec 3, 2010)

MCERT1 said:


> Reading through that whole thread, I have big problems...
> 
> I understand reasoning behind developing a kit like this for worst-case scenarios, but:
> 
> ...



I've had Cipro and Phenergan prescribed to me for use in my "middle of nowhere Guatemala" aid kit. No doc is going to prescribe MS for someone to give themselves after a hiking injury. The poster claims that he has many Dr. friends that understand exactly what he is trying to do (just have an apocalypse ready kit) with the kit and gave him the scripts.


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## EMT11KDL (Dec 3, 2010)

jjesusfreak01 said:


> Depends on your definition of "allowed". In many states, the GS laws explicitly prevent liability if a person is acting within his training. So, if our zombie hating friend here decided to intubate a patient on the side of the road, he would be clear of liability so long as he did it correctly, it was indicated, and he had been trained to do so. What is important to note is that this does not prevent him from facing a legal charge of practicing medicine without a license.
> 
> On another note, I enjoyed looking over his kit, but wonder about the necessity of Fluorescein. Most of his kit is treatment oriented, but Fluorescein is a diagnostic tool of very limited use, and is probably not a good fit for a survival kit, but what do I know. I actually made a wilderness first aid kit when I knew I was going to be acting as a medic (solely for emergencies) on a mission trip in the mountains of Guatemala. I thought I was cool with my clove oil and sam splint.



allowed in the term of being able to preform with out consequence


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## mikie (Dec 3, 2010)

How the H E L L  did he manage to get a 15mL vial of Morphine W/O any training, medical direction, etc?!?!

I mean the epi-pens are one thing (yes, they're an Rx and all) but we're talking about opioids!


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## fortsmithman (Dec 3, 2010)

That bag has stuff my service cannot have in our rig because we are  BLS only as is the rest of ground ambulance in the Northwest Territories.  The stuff in that kit rivals what's found in some ER's in small community hospitals.


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## MrBrown (Dec 3, 2010)

This dude is clearly a nutter .... only in America!

Reminds me of those midgest fighting on Jackass 3D now that Brown thinks of it .....


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## EMDispatch (Dec 4, 2010)

jjesusfreak01 said:


> The poster claims that he has many Dr. friends that understand exactly what he is trying to do (just have an apocalypse ready kit) with the kit and gave him the scripts.



But that's my problem, he has some intention to use this stuff beyond an apocalypse situation. Even if the intention is on himself...What, a good 50% or so would be unrealistic for self treatment? I also appreciate he has trained himself on some of the equipment, but wasn't the intention for his doctor friends to use the advanced equipment? 

The way he talks about it seems to indicate he would use it in the treatment of others outside an apocalyptic scenario, not that he would just randomly do it on the street. 

Also while it is possible doctor friends gave him the Rx meds, in his ACLS thread he commented on how he had access to NTG through his friends with cardiac problems...

I understand the intentions and all, but there's something that's just not right.


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## jjesusfreak01 (Dec 7, 2010)

MCERT1 said:


> I understand the intentions and all, but there's something that's just not right.



Ever bought something not because you needed it, but just cause it looked cool and you wanted it? These guys are going all out not because they need or even intend to use these kits, but because they just want to make a perfect complete medical kit. He doesn't just have prescription meds, but a trach kit, suturing kits, an intubation kit....he likely doesn't know how to use any of these and wouldn't be able to if the opportunity presented itself. Now, i'm not saying that he should be able to easily acquire this stuff and i'm not saying it doesn't look a little fishy, just that there are far more ways for anyone to accidentally kill or injure someone than practicing medicine without a license that are infinitely more likely. To put it in perspective, he is much more dangerous driving a car than carrying that medical kit. I've only once come across a person having an acute medical emergency (diabetic seizure), so I would imagine the chance of this whacker ever having a real chance to use his kit is near zero.


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## truetiger (Dec 7, 2010)

Dilaudid, Percoset, Vicodin, Morphine, Phenergan? I'm sure this fine collection would perk the interest of local DEA agents...


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## Jon (Dec 7, 2010)

truetiger said:


> Dilaudid, Percoset, Vicodin, Morphine, Phenergan? I'm sure this fine collection would perk the interest of local DEA agents...


Nope.

My father gave me an older copy of _Medicine for Mountaineering_ a while back. The book discusses obtaining prescription drugs from your physician for "just in case" when you'll be in a remote environment. Pain management and antibiotics are two really clear examples.

If you are clear in your purpose to a physician that you have a good relationship with, they will likely write scripts for whatever you want, so long as you have decent purpose for having them. Same with suture/staple setups.

There are many books out there that deal in the how-to's of backcountry and combat medicine. This guy seems pretty knowledgeable, at least "by the book." Further - he actually cares about his gear. How many medics do you know that don't check their gear... because it "should" be there.

Further - before we disect this person having all this gear and the LEGAL question of his using it - how different is it than an off-duty EMS provider preforming skills beyond those of a layperson with equipment they have in their personal possession. (IV's... Airways, etc).


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## lightsandsirens5 (Dec 7, 2010)

Jon said:


> Nope.
> 
> My father gave me an older copy of _Medicine for Mountaineering_ a while back. The book discusses obtaining prescription drugs from your physician for "just in case" when you'll be in a remote environment. Pain management and antibiotics are two really clear examples.
> 
> ...



JON!!!! Where have you been? (Or have I just not been paying attention?)


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## truetiger (Dec 7, 2010)

Well then lets just hope this guy doesn't live in Missouri, because his prescriptions would be invalid. Found this from MO DHSS.
	A prescription for a controlled substance is valid only if it is issued for a legitimate medical purpose by a practitioner acting in the usual course of their professional practice. 

Three criteria should be met:
1.	The patient must desire treatment for a legitimate illness or condition.
2.	A practitioner must establish a legitimate need through assessment, utilizing pertinent technical diagnostic modalities.  
3.	There must be reasonable correlations between the drugs prescribed and the patient's legitimate needs.

I'm not sure if an end of the world dooms day pack is a legitimate medical need.


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## brentoli (Dec 7, 2010)

truetiger said:


> Well then lets just hope this guy doesn't live in Missouri, because his prescriptions would be invalid. Found this from MO DHSS.
> A prescription for a controlled substance is valid only if it is issued for a legitimate medical purpose by a practitioner acting in the usual course of their professional practice.
> 
> Three criteria should be met:
> ...



I wouldn't make a blanket statement aboud it being invalid. Groups of twelve people make odd decisons, we all know that.


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## EMSLaw (Dec 8, 2010)

truetiger said:


> Well then lets just hope this guy doesn't live in Missouri, because his prescriptions would be invalid. Found this from MO DHSS.
> A prescription for a controlled substance is valid only if it is issued for a legitimate medical purpose by a practitioner acting in the usual course of their professional practice.
> 
> Three criteria should be met:
> ...



The regulation (I'm assuming that's what it is) doesn't say the need has to be a present or even imminent one.  The patient's desire is for treatment of a legitimate condition (pain) that might occur as a result of future, contingent events.  Provided the doctor is satisfied, based on his professional knowledge and experience, that the condition might legitimately occur, and that the drugs prescribed would alleviate the condition (infection or pain in an austere medical environment, let's say), I think you could easily make the facts fit the standard.  

And that's my take on it in two minutes, without even thinking hard.  You could make a counter-argument, of course, and we could go on like that, but there is certainly a colorable argument to be made that a prescription for emergency use in austere conditions is not per se illegal.  

Provided the drugs aren't being sold on the black market or used recreationally, I would suggest that the prescriptions  are between the person in question and his or her provider.  I also think that the DEA would find it merely interesting, unless it's a particularly slow day, or the doctor is writing a lot of scripts for controlled substances to be used PRN at some uncertain future date.  That's why the DEA monitors controlled substance transactions, after all.


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## JJR512 (Dec 8, 2010)

EMSLaw said:


> The regulation (I'm assuming that's what it is) doesn't say the need has to be a present or even imminent one.  The patient's desire is for treatment of a legitimate condition (pain) that might occur as a result of future, contingent events.  Provided the doctor is satisfied, based on his professional knowledge and experience, that the condition might legitimately occur, and that the drugs prescribed would alleviate the condition (infection or pain in an austere medical environment, let's say), I think you could easily make the facts fit the standard.
> 
> And that's my take on it in two minutes, without even thinking hard...



This was what I initially thought as well.

Then I started thinking a little bit more about the second stipulation. How can a doctor assess a condition that hasn't happened yet? How can there be a "legitimate need" when it's not even certain yet that anything that might result in a need is actually going to happen?

That's just something I think is worth thinking about (and discussing further) as a counterpoint to what you said. I'm not saying I agree or disagree...What Jon said does make some sense, but it might not be applicable, valid, or possible under the law in all states and jurisdictions.


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