# Characteristics of quality paramedic schools?



## Kookaburra (Oct 16, 2009)

I've seen lots of people advocate for increased education for paramedics, and as a student myself, I can't agree more. (I'm a nerd, I'm always sad when the lab/lectures are over, heh) My program is OK (though the CC it's done through is sooo bureaucratic. I already have my 4-year Bachelor's, but I still have to take all the BS breadth classes to get a lower 2 year Associate's Degree, how does that make sense?! Another woman in my class has a Master's in mathematics and engineering, and she's in the same boat, having to take lots of low level classes to fulfill the breadth stuff.)

I was wondering because at first when I saw all of the suggestions that people take college A&P classes I was very confused - my program requires a year of A&P to even apply. Is it not the same in other programs?

So, my question is - what would your ideal Paramedic education program look like? What are the really good programs out there, and what policies/procedures do they share?

My program looks like this:
1st year - EMTB classes, EMS rescue and communications classes, College Writing, Human Relations, Medical Terminology, A&P, Chemistry.
2nd year - Paramedic classes/clinicals, more human relations, health classes, public speaking, intro to computer science.

We use the Brady Book, and also have the ACLS Advanced Cardiovascular Life support book, The 60-second EMT, Math for Meds, and a few other books. Oh, and the local protocols are part of our exams and quizzes. We have 8 hours of lecture and 6 hours of lab a week.


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## VentMedic (Oct 16, 2009)

Degree?  You are really lucky you live in Oregon or you would be attending a tech school with the 3 month wonder program in other states.

http://www.emtinc.net/emsclasses.htm#Paramedic_EMS

"You don't need none of that useless education crap to be a Paramedic.  Too much book learnin' distracts from the street smarts stuff."


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## Kookaburra (Oct 16, 2009)

3 mos?! Holy crap, I can't even imagine that. Ours is a full year (though the last quarter is all internship).

Yeah, I'm really glad that Oregon paramedics have to have a degree, it's just... I already have one, and now I'm having to pay through the nose to take courses that wouldn't have been challenging in high school, let alone after going through a rigorous 4 year college. (In my computer science class, our first assignment was to send the instructor an email. I can tell this is going to be a _fabulous_ use of my time.)

Oh, and we have to have a course in college algebra to apply as well. That was handy, because I'd always felt sort of weak on math, but managed to muddle through high school algebra and trig with B's. The way the course was taught at the CC, though I really felt like I was mastering it, which has been helping me feel confident when calculating drip rates, etc.


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## triemal04 (Oct 17, 2009)

For starters, don't fall into the trap of believing everything that ventmedic says; it's not (as in this case) always accurate.  What I mean is, that, while only Oregon and Kansas require a degree to be a paramedic, a 3 month paramedic course is NOT the norm or something that "you would be attending" elsewhere.  They are the exception, not the rule.

Depending on what your bachelor's is in, you should be able to opt out of some of the courses; if you haven't already talk to a councilor (not necessarily one from the EMS program) and see if they will give you credit for what you've already done; it's also possible to challenge the classes at the state level, but I wouldn't be to focuses on that.  

Yes, many of the classes are lower level and won't be as challenging as what you've done.  That being said, most will still have good information that will relate to being a paramedic.  Spend the time going deeper into the topics.  And, if possible, get the classes that are required for the degree out of the way before you start the actual paramedic class; life will be so much simpler when you start your internship and clinical.  And no, A&P is not a requirement nationally.


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## VentMedic (Oct 17, 2009)

triemal04 said:


> For starters, don't fall into the trap of believing everything that ventmedic says; it's not (as in this case) always accurate. What I mean is, that, while only Oregon and Kansas require a degree to be a paramedic, a 3 month paramedic course is NOT the norm or something that "you would be attending" elsewhere. They are the exception, not the rule.


 
They don't have to believe me which is why I provide links.  

It is also easy enough to check the "number of hours" each state requires.  

So try again with your little slander crap against those with an education.   Looking at your other posts today it looks like you are on a real smear campaign against anyone with an educated opinion just so you can stick up for the FDs and their medic mills.   It is a shame that you fail to see the weaknesses of those that hold EMS back.


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## wyoskibum (Oct 17, 2009)

Kookaburra said:


> Yeah, I'm really glad that Oregon paramedics have to have a degree, it's just... I already have one, and now I'm having to pay through the nose to take courses that wouldn't have been challenging in high school, let alone after going through a rigorous 4 year college.



Unless your degree is with an un-accredited college, they should accept credits from your four-year college.  Did you inquire about transferring credits?  If they say no, make a big stink and threaten to complain to the accrediting agency.


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## MrBrown (Oct 17, 2009)

wyoskibum said:


> Unless your degree is with an un-accredited college, they should accept credits from your four-year college.  Did you inquire about transferring credits?  If they say no, make a big stink and threaten to complain to the accrediting agency.



That's a pretty good idea mate; pitch a stink and they should square you away.

Looks like Oregon has a pretty good setup; guess you're kind of in the middle huh between Washington who has Medic One and California who has like the worst Paramedics I have ever met (haven't personally been to Florida yet).


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## Kookaburra (Oct 17, 2009)

wyoskibum said:


> Unless your degree is with an un-accredited college, they should accept credits from your four-year college.  Did you inquire about transferring credits?  If they say no, make a big stink and threaten to complain to the accrediting agency.



Nope it's from an accredited college, but the CC uses quarter credits, my college credits are in semesters, also, my college is from out of State, and used different course titles. I already went and pitched a fit, and basically I was told that I would have to some how obtain a syllabus of the courses I took (I graduated 2 years ago) and find an instructor in the departments that I wanted transfer credits from and talk them into putting in a good word and then MAYBE I could transfer SOME of the credits. It's pretty much a scheme to get people to take as many courses as possible there. And they're not even _useful, academic_ courses like history or philosophy (which I actually enjoy and would have a blast taking. It's crap like "Human Relations at Work" and "Staying Fit for Life" and "Improving Parent Child Relations" and "Intro to College Writing" (after having to turn in several thousand words of essay in a week for four years, it was almost insulting.) Ah well - I just tell myself that when I go for a Master's or a B.S. degree, if I stay in Oregon this stuff will transfer. <_<

But back on topic: what would be your ideal Paramedic program? I keep having thoughts about how I would teach the course, skills, etc as I'm sitting in class... but I'll need quite a few more years under my belt before I can even think about that.B)


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## atropine (Oct 18, 2009)

To the OP if you don't like it move and go somewhere else, medic schools are a dime a dozen and does it really matter where you go?, your patch will say paramedic just like my patch say paramedic and thats what really counts.^_^


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## Kookaburra (Oct 18, 2009)

Sorry, stuck here with my family right now... if I could move I would be up in Portland going to OHSU.

And no, the title on the patch isn't as important as the education in my head, tyvm.


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## thegreypilgrim (Oct 18, 2009)

Kookaburra said:


> So, my question is - what would your ideal Paramedic education program look like? What are the really good programs out there, and what policies/procedures do they share?


Pre-requisites:
 - College Algebra or higher
 - English Composition 101
 - General Psychology
 - Developmental Psychology
 - Intro Biology with lab
 - Intro Chemistry with lab
 - Intro Physics with lab
 - Microbiology with lab
 - Human Anatomy with lab
 - Human Physiology with lab
 - Electives:
    * Some sort of personal health course (e.g. Nutrition)
    * Some sort of cultural diversity course (e.g. Sociology, Cultural Anthropology, etc.)
    * Some sort of physical education course
    * Some sort of foreign language course

Qualifications:
 - EMT-B review exam (would include college A&P material)
 - Oral interview panel
 - Personal essay, letters of recommendation

1st Year Sequence:
 - Anatomy & Physiology Review
 - Pathophysiology
 - Basic ECG Interpretation
 - Infectious Diseases
 - Physical Diagnosis & Intervention
 - Pharmacology
 - Medical-Legal Issues
 - Psychiatric Crisis Intervention
 - Pathology I (fundamental disease processes of various body systems, would also include autopsy viewing and case reports)
 - Traumatic Injury

2nd Year Sequence:
 - 12-Lead ECG Interpretation
 - Cardiology (this would include ACLS/PALS certification)
 - Pediatrics
 - Advanced Physical Diagnosis & Intervention
 - Pathology II (continuation of Path. I with more autopsy viewings & case reports)
 - Geriatrics and Aging
 - Disasters, WMD's, Terrorism (would include MCI's & ICS)
 - Environmental Emergencies
 - Ambulance, Rescue, and Tactical Operations (would include communications, and radio reporting as well)
 - Research Methods

Clinical Internship: rotations through Emergency, ICU/CCU, Peds, Neo-nate, L & D, Psych, and Surgery departments of various hospitals interspersed throughout the 2-year program

Field Internship: minimum 600 hours and 80 ALS patient contacts in a high call volume district after a thorough, formal introduction to preceptors & the agency you'd be interning with (no meeting preceptors for the first time on day one of your internship...yeah I bet no one's had that happen to them). Would begin upon completion of all required coursework & exams for didactic and clinical portions of the program.

That's my ideal situation. Will probably never happen though. Dare to dream!


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## John E (Oct 18, 2009)

*Wow...*

that's an ambitious list of classes and requirements. What sort of job should a person be able to get after going thru all of that education and training?

Not knocking it, I'm honestly curious.

And when would the student be allowed to sleep?

John E


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## VentMedic (Oct 18, 2009)

John E said:


> that's an ambitious list of classes and requirements. What sort of job should a person be able to get after going thru all of that education and training?
> 
> Not knocking it, I'm honestly curious.
> 
> ...


 
Those are short list of the prerequisites for almost every allied health and nursing program.  There are actually a few more.  This should also be part of every Paramedic program and there are a few EMS degrees that are like this.

The Paramedic portion is similar to what you would find in a decent Paramedic program longer in length.

Thus, this should should meet the requriements for just a mere Associates degree which should be the minimum for a Paramedic. 

I personally think Loma Linda's program should be the minimun but that would be a dream.


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## daedalus (Oct 18, 2009)

Not so ambitious compared to RN programs. RN students have time to sleep


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## thegreypilgrim (Oct 18, 2009)

John E said:


> that's an ambitious list of classes and requirements. What sort of job should a person be able to get after going thru all of that education and training?
> 
> Not knocking it, I'm honestly curious.


Well, if I had my way that would just be an example of a typical paramedic program. If I really had my way it would be part of a 4-year B.S. degree, but as it stands I'd be happy with a 2 year program. In my admitted fantasy world this sort of education would be required for every paramedic in the nation. The function and role of the paramedic wouldn't be as it currently is, but more like a P.A. that functions in the field. Yeah, less people would attend these programs initially, but that would lead to increased pay which would inevitably draw more students toward that career track.



> And when would the student be allowed to sleep?
> 
> John E


Meh, they'll be fine.


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## John E (Oct 18, 2009)

*Hmmm...*

an associates degree is generally meant to mean a degree that can be earned at a community college in 2 calendar years attending classes full time. 

The initial pre-requisites are approximately 40-45 units worth of school time alone, that's assuming an average of 3 units per class which is probably low for some of them, particularly the science classes. 40-45 units of schooling at the college level is approximately what it takes to earn a postgraduate Degree which is of course on top of whatever lower level degree one already has.

There is no way on this earth, Canada included, that a person could take that many classes including the pre-requisites AND complete an 800 hour internship within 2 years. 800 hours divided by 40 work week, that's 20 weeks of full time work all by itself. A typical semester is 16 to 20 weeks long. That's one entire semester just to complete the internship and that's if you could do at all at one time. 

This sounds more like a program to take AFTER earning a associates degree first. Which wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea.

And again I ask, what sort of job would a person be able to get after completing such a course? I think it's a great idea to increase the education of all EMS providers if the job and the salaries are commensurate.

yeah, I know, sleep is overrated...

John E


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## daedalus (Oct 18, 2009)

John E said:


> an associates degree is generally meant to mean a degree that can be earned at a community college in 2 calendar years attending classes full time.
> 
> The initial pre-requisites are approximately 40-45 units worth of school time alone, that's assuming an average of 3 units per class which is probably low for some of them, particularly the science classes. 40-45 units of schooling at the college level is approximately what it takes to earn a postgraduate Degree which is of course on top of whatever lower level degree one already has.
> 
> ...


To be fair, some AS degrees in Nursing cannot be earned in just two years as well. For example, the AS degree for a local college in nursing requires two years of nursing school on top of about six months to a year of pre-reqs (depending on how many you take a semester).

They would have the job title of paramedic after completing the said courses.


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## VentMedic (Oct 18, 2009)

John E said:


> an associates degree is generally meant to mean a degree that can be earned at a community college in 2 calendar years attending classes full time.
> 
> The initial pre-requisites are approximately 40-45 units worth of school time alone, that's assuming an average of 3 units per class which is probably low for some of them, particularly the science classes. 40-45 units of schooling at the college level is approximately what it takes to earn a postgraduate Degree which is of course on top of whatever lower level degree one already has.
> 
> ...


 

Okay, here is a link to a  college that offers Associates degrees. 

http://www.broward.edu/programs/#AS

Look under the A.S. section for any health care profession.

Actually let me help you with that:

Try:
Radiation Therapy
Respiratory Care
Nursing
Diagnostic Medical Sonography
Dental Hygiene


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## John E (Oct 18, 2009)

*True enough...*

but we're not talking about a Nursing program. Sounds like there would need to be a new title given to a degree of this sort. A "mere" Associates just doesn't have the zing to it that it should.

I would hope that someone completing a program as described would be making a decent salary for their troubles.

So now that all the educational problems have been solved, how should I carry my stethoscope...?

John E


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## daedalus (Oct 18, 2009)

John, who needs a real education? Just an FYI, Vent has 3 undergraduate degrees in various medical sciences, has a graduate degree in exercise physiology, and is nearing the end of obtaining a PhD.


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## VentMedic (Oct 18, 2009)

John E said:


> but we're not talking about a Nursing program. Sounds like there would need to be a new title given to a degree of this sort. A "mere" Associates just doesn't have the zing to it that it should.
> 
> John E


 
Since most businesses and many health care professions expect or require no less than a 4 year degree, the Associates in not very much.


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## Dwindlin (Oct 18, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Since most businesses and many health care professions expect or require no less than a 4 year degree, the Associates in not very much.



Since the national unemployment rate for September was under 10% (meaning a good majority of Americans still have jobs) yet only around 28% of Americans hold a Bachelors or higher I'm going to go ahead and say your wrong.  Most businesses do not in fact require Bachelors or higher.

http://www.bls.gov/cps/

http://factfinder.census.gov/servle...EST_G00_R1402_US30&-format=US-30&-CONTEXT=grt

http://factfinder.census.gov/servle...name=ACS_2008_1YR_G00_R1502_US30&-CONTEXT=grt


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## John E (Oct 18, 2009)

*Sigh...*

I think I've figured out the problem.

I'm writing in fairly plain English and some people apparently have problems comprehending it.

Some quotes:"Thus, this should should meet the requriements for just a mere Associates degree which should be the minimum for a Paramedic." uttered by "ventmedic"

Now leaving aside the atrocious grammar and the poor spelling, this directly contradicts what this very same person writes in this comment:

"I got my degree in EMS 30 years ago and at that time all of those prerequisites listed earlier were part of the program. I later applied those prerequisites toward my RT degree. I still had almost a full two years of college. Thus, it wouldn't have mattered which degree I got first. The prerequisites were the same and both the Paramedic and RT were A.S. degrees."

In one comment she says that thegreypilgrim's suggestion is the minimum required, and in another she states that it took almost 2 additional years to obtain her own Associates degree(s) only AFTER completing similiar pre-requisites. All I stated was that the suggestions made by thegreypilgrim were simply too much to fit into a standard 2 year Associates Degree program,by the way, I stand by those words. I also asked her, ventmedic that is, to compare the required classes for a Respiratory Therapy degree with those suggested by thegreypilgrim. Hint, the ones suggested by thegreypilgrim  would take a lot more time to complete than a standard RT program would. ventmedic apparently both agrees with me on that while also claiming that the opposite is also true. So which is it?

As for who needs an education, unlike ventmedic I don't post the contents of private messages but I'll simply say this, I didn't send her any messages suggesting that she needed an education, I merely replied to her incessant messages to me. 

As for my comments about a "mere" associates degree. Unlike some people I don't look down on or make derogatory comments about ones level of academic achievement. Being someone who didn't complete his college education at what most would consider the "normal" time, I have a deep sympathy for those who attend school in an attempt to achieve things like "mere" associates degrees. I started attending classes in Respiratory Therapy at the age of 46, still haven't finished but I will and when I do so, I hope to take that "mere" degree and use it much like some of those here are doing now. 

John E


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## thegreypilgrim (Oct 18, 2009)

*John E*

Dude, you're being incredibly pedantic. What is it you want out of this discussion? Are you one of those people that have an insatiable need to "win" the conversation? I mean holy hell we were just talking about our opinions on what we think would be nice to change about paramedic programs.

Wouldn't it be a good idea to join the ranks of other allied health professionals and have the same sort of educational standards they have? Like, in a uniform sense and not the haphazard manner we currently have where you have some medic programs that are really thorough & others that are kind of shoddy? 

Ok, so what I listed might not be able to be done in 2 years. So what? I just made that up on the spot, man. Sorry it's not in professional presentation form, but I thought this was a discussion board. If it takes 3-4 years so be it, let's not act as though the fate of the free world depended on it. Do yourself a favor and, like, go look at some landscape paintings or something before you rupture an aneurysm.


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## triemal04 (Oct 18, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> They don't have to believe me which is why I provide links.
> 
> It is also easy enough to check the "number of hours" each state requires.
> 
> So try again with your little slander crap against those with an education.   Looking at your other posts today it looks like you are on a real smear campaign against anyone with an educated opinion just so you can stick up for the FDs and their medic mills.   It is a shame that you fail to see the weaknesses of those that hold EMS back.


Slander?  I'm shocked that you would think that.  All I did was point out that you gave out inaccurate info.  Let's take a look at what you said:


VentMedic said:


> Degree?  *You are really lucky you live in Oregon or you would be attending a tech school with the 3 month wonder program in other states.*
> 
> http://www.emtinc.net/emsclasses.htm#Paramedic_EMS
> 
> "You don't need none of that useless education crap to be a Paramedic.  Too much book learnin' distracts from the street smarts stuff."


So here you are saying that if you don't go to school in Oregon you'll end up going to a 3-month tech school.  Given that there are many, many different schools out there that have programs of various lengths, that makes your comment...false.  Shocking, I know.  Posting a link to a single school is supposed to prove...what?  That there is a school with that short of a program?  Yes, it shows that.  And that's all it shows.  Once again, you made a statement that was wrong.  Get over it.  I am curious though...since you didn't go to school in Oregon, by your reasoning, wouldn't that mean you went to a 3-month school?

Anyway, back on track.
Chemistry and Biology (lower level)
A&P (full year)
psychology
sociology
Algebra
Medical Terminology
Pharmacology
Technical writing (or some type of class that teaches people how to write a PHCR)
Introduction to EMS 
Crisis Intervention and Management (or whatever you want to call it)
General Health and Nutrition
enough electives to round out the degree

And of course the paramedic course itself.  Plus (I'll see greypilgrims 600 hours and go one better) a 1 year internship on an ambulance.  Say 3 years total.


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## John E (Oct 18, 2009)

*Interesting that...*

I wrote that I liked your list, agreed with your ideas and this is your response.

What you call pedantic I call not being misquoted or accused of saying and writing things that I didn't say or write.

For the record, I liked your list, I agreed with your conclusions and I was trying to see how a program like what you wrote about could be fit into a traditional degree system. I also didn't claim that the fate of the world depended on it. Not trying to win anything, perhaps you should actually read what I wrote before you decide who's being pedantic here.

As you said, it's a discussion, I was discussing and again, agreeing with your take on things until another person attempted to put words into my mouth and make inaccurate claims about what I said. 

Let me say it one more time, I liked your list, I agree with the ideas you posted, well except for that part where you insulted me I suppose.  I have nothing against making EMS education more closely resemble the education that others in the medical field receive. 

I'm sorry that agreeing with you while taking issue with inaccurate information posted by others bothers you so much.

John E


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## Dwindlin (Oct 18, 2009)

thegreypilgrim said:


> Pre-requisites:
> - College Algebra or higher
> - English Composition 101
> - General Psychology
> ...



Pretty much agree with this.  Only thing I would nix is the physics.  While it may seem useful I assure you its not.  I knew it solid for my MCAT, and outside of being interested in the mechanics behind some of the rad techniques it has been useless.


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## John E (Oct 18, 2009)

*Isn't there...*

a physics course that's specifically aimed at medical/allied health students?

I seem to recall one that was on my list of prereq's for the RT program.

Maybe it was chemistry? Obviously I haven't taken either one yet...

John E


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## thegreypilgrim (Oct 18, 2009)

John E said:


> I wrote that I liked your list, agreed with your ideas and this is your response.
> 
> What you call pedantic I call not being misquoted or accused of saying and writing things that I didn't say or write.
> 
> ...



Alright, apparently there's some history of bad blood here that I'm simply not aware of being rather new to this board, nor am I really interested in the history of this feud. However, I seem to have misinterpreted your initial reply to me here: 


> There is no way on this earth, Canada included, that a person could take that many classes including the pre-requisites AND complete an 800 hour internship within 2 years. 800 hours divided by 40 work week, that's 20 weeks of full time work all by itself. A typical semester is 16 to 20 weeks long. That's one entire semester just to complete the internship and that's if you could do at all at one time.


For some reason, I read that as jumping on my saying this should be done in 2 years in order to shoot the whole idea down as unrealistic. Then you also had comments about my post mixed in with your issues with VentMedic. In short, I screwed up. My mistake.


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## fortsmithman (Oct 18, 2009)

I think to be an EMT Paramedic one should have at least a bachelors degree.  Here in Canada we have at least 2 paramedic programs leading to a bachelor's degree.  They are at Medicine Hat College, and the University of Toronto at Scarborough.


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## Dwindlin (Oct 18, 2009)

John E said:


> a physics course that's specifically aimed at medical/allied health students?



Don't know how this would work.  I mean kinetics are related in a round about sort of way when you get into MOI and such, but in reality the actual calculation of forces would be completely unnecessary.  Physics has a big role in Radiology (but even here its a narrow spectrum of physics including magnetism and nuclear physics) but again, of little value to prehospital provider.


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## Jon (Oct 18, 2009)

Can't we all just get along?

If we can keep this on track - I like the ideas behind the thread - lets leave the personal attacks out of this, OK?

Group hug?






Or not. Still. Let's just all be nice, OK?

Jon


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## Summit (Oct 19, 2009)

thegreypilgrim said:


> Pre-requisites:
> - College Algebra or higher
> - English Composition 101
> - General Psychology
> ...



Sweet. I have met the prereq list. Where can I get an application?


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## EMSLaw (Oct 19, 2009)

By my calculation, your proposal requires 48 credit hours approximately of pre-requisites.  That's three semesters of work.  Plus another four semesters of a medic program?  

You might as well tack on a few more gen ed credits and make it a bachelor's degree. You're already at three and a half years.


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## Summit (Oct 19, 2009)

EMSLaw said:


> By my calculation, your proposal requires 48 credit hours approximately of pre-requisites.  That's three semesters of work.  Plus another four semesters of a medic program?
> 
> You might as well tack on a few more gen ed credits and make it a bachelor's degree. You're already at three and a half years.



Actually, if you sued my AS-BLS program, then you would have a perfect forerunner program to combine with his above program to make a BS-Paramedicine.


The 72 hour AS degree for Prehospital BLS (Posted in 2005)



			
				Summit said:
			
		

> *Semester I*
> English Comp I 3hr
> College Algebra 4hr or Statistics 3hr
> Biology I /w lab 5hr
> ...



For the record, in the intervening years, I have taken *EVERY* class on that list and more. Makes me a much better EMT...


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## rescue99 (Oct 19, 2009)

Summit said:


> Actually, if you sued my AS-BLS program, then you would have a perfect forerunner program to combine with his above program to make a BS-Paramedicine.
> 
> 
> The 72 hour AS degree for Prehospital BLS (Posted in 2005)
> ...



For a job that pays 12-15 dollars an hour at best? An associates with pre-reqs equal to Bio, A/P, Med Term, Comp and Pharm prior to entering the EMT phase is plenty while still making a much better Medic in the end.


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## medichopeful (Oct 19, 2009)

Kookaburra said:


> And no, the title on the patch isn't as important as the education in my head, tyvm.



Good man!

(Or woman.  Not sure )


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## medichopeful (Oct 19, 2009)

thegreypilgrim said:


> Meh, they'll be fine.



This struck me as funny for some reason :wacko:


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## atropine (Oct 19, 2009)

Does it really matter who takes what?, and how many units this and that are?, I am mean really for $12.00 per hour who cares.  All the units in the world are not going to pay my mortgage. The truth is we all go were the money is and if some of us can't get there and you know who you are, we like to whine about how much more education there should be when really how much can we do in the field anyways.^_^ I jus have to make enough to keep my wife from meeting my g/f.


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## rescue99 (Oct 19, 2009)

Kookaburra said:


> Sorry, stuck here with my family right now... if I could move I would be up in Portland going to OHSU.
> 
> And no, the title on the patch isn't as important as the education in my head, tyvm.



"Stuck" with family??? :sad: Awww, ya only have one family. Enjoy this brief  time as it will be the past soon enough.  Besides, with the exception of the ulumni reunion committee, no one really gives a hoot where anybody went to school


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## medichopeful (Oct 19, 2009)

atropine said:


> Does it really matter who takes what?, and how many units this and that are?,



Actually, yes it does.  



> I am mean really for $12.00 per hour who cares.



If everybody had an increase in education, maybe that rate would go up.



> All the units in the world are not going to pay my mortgage. The truth is we all go were the money is and if some of us can't get there and you know who you are, we like to whine about how much more education there should be when really how much can we do in the field anyways.



You can't be serious.

And on a side note, if there was an increase in the amount of education, the scope of practice could go up.


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## Summit (Oct 19, 2009)

rescue99 said:


> For a job that pays 12-15 dollars an hour at best? An associates with pre-reqs equal to Bio, A/P, Med Term, Comp and Pharm prior to entering the EMT phase is plenty while still making a much better Medic in the end.



Not sure how you mean that. 

If you mean why have a program like that? Apply it to the whole system, increase the scope along with it a little, pay increase would quickly follow as EMS changed from a technician level care system to a educated provider based system like all the other Allied Health Fields have (except EMS). 

If you mean why would I do that? Because I don't want to be an EMT forever. I now have an AS-Biology and an AS-Chemistry. I'll be appyling to P school and BSN programs starting right about... now.


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## rescue99 (Oct 19, 2009)

Summit said:


> Not sure how you mean that.
> 
> If you mean why have a program like that? Apply it to the whole system, increase the scope along with it a little, pay increase would quickly follow as EMS changed from a technician level care system to a educated provider based system like all the other Allied Health Fields have (except EMS).
> 
> If you mean why would I do that? Because I don't want to be an EMT forever. I now have an AS-Biology and an AS-Chemistry. I'll be appyling to P school and BSN programs starting right about... now.



Sooo..you really want to be a nurse then..not a Medic. An associates in EMS is no different than a 2 year RN.


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## Summit (Oct 19, 2009)

rescue99 said:


> Sooo..you really want to be a nurse then..not a Medic. An associates in EMS is no different than a 2 year RN.



I want a career. I'm going to P school whether I do it before or after BSN depends on who lets me in. Lots of HEMS personnel hold dual qualifications in paramedicine and nursing.

But don't try to mischaracterize my motivations and aspirations:

I started taking bio and then A&P *IMMEDIATELY* after my EMT because I thought the level of education in EMT was pathetic and I wanted to understand why I was doing what I was doing. I had no aspirations to be a nurse then, just to be a better EMS provider. I wrote that curriculum idea when I had no idea I'd be going to P school, much less nursing school. My educational background before EMS was nuclear engineering and IT.

Only when I looked at where the vocation of Paramedicine dead ends in its current form did I look at nursing. Why does EMS dead end? Lack of educational standards. Period. End of story.

Some days I dream about moving to Canada or NZ where they have *real* careers in EMS... good skiing too! Sometimes I dream that we'll be like that. Then EMS will be my career.


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## Kookaburra (Oct 19, 2009)

Exactly Summit - I want paramedicine to be my career, but with the state of education in the US, it really /can't/ be. I don't /want/ to have to give up working in the field (I haaaaate working indoors in one place all the time) but if I have to in order to be a respected medical professional, I will.


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