# Why The Trolls Are Allowed To Remain



## 46Young (Jul 23, 2010)

I saw this rather interesting thread on FH.com. It makes you think....

http://www.firehouse.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116203

The difference with this particular forum is that there's no advertising. But that's the exception. I have noticed that trolls and other instigators do spice up the threads and create more volume with the numerous responses. 

Think about it, if someone were to start a thread like "Why the fire service will eventually take over all 911 EMS" it would start quite the ruckus. Or maybe one on why medic mills are so great, since it can give anyone a quick and easy way to make money without going to college.


----------



## mycrofft (Jul 23, 2010)

*You mean like this thread? (no shoot, GI, chiu hoy!)*

 

Kidding, just kidding.

Go look at the Los Angeles CERT board. No interaction. No fun. No outrage. No posts.

Also, one man's "Oh, yeah!" guilty pleasure is another man's troll, sometimes.
Finally, the webmeisters have day jobs and better things to do than read ever single new post the moment it hits the site.
And really finally, sometimes it's embarassing to read the raking-over some people get when they are out of bounds


----------



## JPINFV (Jul 23, 2010)

Part of the problem is the fine line between someone taking a legitimate extreme side of a hot topic and blatant trolling. I can see someone legitimately thinking that the natural course of EMS evolution in the US being that everything is fire based. Is it de facto trolling if you express that view? Not necessarily. I know my views on education and appropriate scope of practice could be considered by many to be trollish, but unless my purpose is to get a rise out of people, it isn't trolling regardless of the end result.


----------



## Meursault (Jul 23, 2010)

This board shall be cleansed in purifying flame! 





Though actually, these forums have almost no dedicated trolls and no one who's particularly good at it.

The linked post is a bit too tinfoily for my taste. Trolling arises spontaneously on image boards, partly because few people know  how to argue and partly because of John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fụckwad Theory. There's no need for the evil corporate overlords to encourage it.


----------



## Aidey (Jul 23, 2010)

I'm a member of a fitness forum, and it seems like in every 3rd thread someone is accused of being a troll because they ask a stupid question. If there is one thing I've learned from watching the threads there it is that people are dumber than you think, and most of time they really are asking because they don't know, and that people assume everyone else knows what they know. If everyone there who was accused of trolling was banned, they'd lose about 1/3 of their membership. 

I agree with JP in that people have opinions ranging along the spectrum, and we can't assume everyone at the outer ends are trolls. I think that unless someone is causing huge problems, forum management just doesn't care. I don't think it's some conspiracy to increase ad revenue.


----------



## Sasha (Jul 25, 2010)

Because they are oh so much fun.


----------



## mycrofft (Jul 25, 2010)

*"Oh, great. They brought a cave troll!".*






Aidey, by any chance are those stupid questions like "Are you wearing anything unusual?", or "Don't you miss Steve Reeves in those gladiators classics?" ?


----------



## ffemt8978 (Jul 25, 2010)

Take note everyone, because this doesn't happen every day.



JPINFV said:


> Part of the problem is the fine line between someone taking a legitimate extreme side of a hot topic and blatant trolling. I can see someone legitimately thinking that the natural course of EMS evolution in the US being that everything is fire based. Is it de facto trolling if you express that view? Not necessarily. I know my views on education and appropriate scope of practice could be considered by many to be trollish, but unless my purpose is to get a rise out of people, it isn't trolling regardless of the end result.



I actually agree with JPINFV on this.  Taking a quote from the first paragraph of our Community Rules, 





> We don't intend to censor messages based on the  opinions expressed within posts, but we will enforce the policies  outlined both here, on the Guidelines page and on the Forum.



As far as the Community Leaders are concerned, everyone is entitled to their opinion and they are entitled to express that opinion here as long as it remains within the guidelines we have set forth in our rules and elsewhere.



Aidey said:


> I agree with JP in that people have opinions ranging along the spectrum,  and we can't assume everyone at the outer ends are trolls. I think that  unless someone is causing huge problems, forum management just doesn't  care. I don't think it's some conspiracy to increase ad revenue.



We actually do care, but in a different way.  We have to balance these types of posts against several factors.  If we crack down to hard, people accuse us of censorship and violating their First Amendment rights of free speech.  This leads to decreased membership and activity because members feel like they are not allowed to express themselves.

If we leave it alone, people will stop visiting here because the atmosphere is not conductive to honest, open, intelligent, and civil discussions...which would cause this place to cease to exist.  

Another factor we consider, for example, is the educational value of the thread.  Can people learn from it?  Maybe not the "trollish post" itself, but the responses to that post are often times some of the most educational posts on this forum.  I know for a fact that I've left several obviously trollish posts alone simply for this fact.

Just to clear up one other issue...this forum brings in absolutely zero revenue, so it is not about money.  EMTLife.com is funded solely by it's founder, and if you look around you will find nothing on this site that generates any revenue.  For a variety of reasons, it's been like that from day one; and it's one of the reasons we have a very low tolerance for spam, and other forms of advertising (such as placing it in signatures).


----------



## JPINFV (Jul 25, 2010)

ffemt8978 said:


> I actually agree with JPINFV on this.  Taking a quote from the first paragraph of our Community Rules,


----------



## medic417 (Jul 25, 2010)

46Young said:


> I saw this rather interesting thread on FH.com. It makes you think....
> 
> http://www.firehouse.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116203
> 
> ...



46 here and on other sites when you first joined many felt you were a troll, some still do.  So where do you draw the line at who to ban?


----------



## lightsandsirens5 (Jul 25, 2010)

JPINFV said:


>


 
Post of the year......:lol:


----------



## 46Young (Jul 25, 2010)

medic417 said:


> 46 here and on other sites when you first joined many felt you were a troll, some still do.  So where do you draw the line at who to ban?



When people put down my chosen profession by issuing blanket statements, I'm going to go back at them. My views and opinions were formed from life experience. Sure, I've pushed some buttons at times when things got a little hostile, such as saying things like "I play for the winning team" and such. I don't really think like that, but I react like that when I'm given a lot of crap. Notice how no one's really bashing anyone for anything lately. There may be a few heated discussions, but certainly no flame wars. I don't feel that I've participated in any troll like behavior in a while. I originally joined the forum to just shoot the bull with others that do EMS, and in short fashion I had my profession and educational status attacked. If someone gives me crap, I typically give it back. 

Anyway, I would draw the line when a forum member shows a consistent trend of purposefully disagreeing and attacking other members, or generally creating a hostile environment, with little to offer otherwise. Take ventmedic for example. I wouldn't call her a troll. She contributed a lot to the forum. However, she was way too militant with her educational rants and attacks. Many just grew tired of the drama.


----------



## Aidey (Jul 25, 2010)

mycrofft said:


> Aidey, by any chance are those stupid questions like "Are you wearing anything unusual?", or "Don't you miss Steve Reeves in those gladiators classics?" ?



I have no clue who Steve Reeves is....Your showing your age mycrofft 

No, it's more ignorance that stupidity I think. Stuff like "Is it ok to eat carbs after 5pm?". 



ffemt8978 said:


> We actually do care, but in a different way.  We have to balance these types of posts against several factors.  If we crack down to hard, people accuse us of censorship and violating their First Amendment rights of free speech.  This leads to decreased membership and activity because members feel like they are not allowed to express themselves.



Sorry, that wasn't aimed towards the management of this site specifically, but meant as a general statement for many forums. I think on a small forum like this the management is more likely to care. On some huge forum with 100 boards and 500,000 members, probably not so much.


----------



## ffemt8978 (Jul 25, 2010)

Aidey said:


> Sorry, that wasn't aimed towards the management of this site specifically, but meant as a general statement for many forums. I think on a small forum like this the management is more likely to care. On some huge forum with 100 boards and 500,000 members, probably not so much.



I know, but I was using it as a way to explain the action, or perceived inaction, of the CL's here.


----------



## Aidey (Jul 25, 2010)

No problem, I just didn't want you guys thinking that I thought you didn't care about the forum.


----------



## medic417 (Jul 26, 2010)

46Young said:


> Anyway, I would draw the line when a forum member shows a consistent trend of purposefully disagreeing and attacking other members, or generally creating a hostile environment, with little to offer otherwise. Take ventmedic for example. I wouldn't call her a troll. She contributed a lot to the forum. However, she was way too militant with her educational rants and attacks. Many just grew tired of the drama.



And again you met and really could be said to still meet that same definition.  Heck I meet that definition.   Should we ban you and me like Vent was?  At least she actually provided educated education.  You and I tend to just spout off based on our personal experiences with a rare educational post.  I miss Vent I want to see her post.


----------



## JPINFV (Jul 26, 2010)

medic417 said:


> At least she actually provided educated education.



Not towards the end. At the end she was much more blatant personal attacks than anything else. If you want a perfect example, I  can give you a link to the other EMS forum with a specific thread where personal attacks were more important to her than any other sort of rebuttal.


----------



## ffemt8978 (Jul 26, 2010)

Why don't the two of you take the discussion about VentMedic to PM instead of posting it here?


----------



## medic417 (Jul 26, 2010)

ffemt8978 said:


> Why don't the two of you take the discussion about VentMedic to PM instead of posting it here?



Talk about trolling.

Sorry will do if need the info.  

So Troll = nothing of value contributed. So while at times myself and many others here post controversial opinions and even facts does not mean we are trolls.  These differences hopefully help each of us to stretch our brains thus lead to improvement of patient care.  So if we get one person to improve patient care we have been of benefit.


----------



## mycrofft (Jul 26, 2010)

*The question is, why do some people "turn troll"?*

There are times I want to snap and "go troll" when I see the same questions about buying pants, or half-baked scenarios, or thin news articles, or childish insulting nicknames, over and over and over and over...I think I helped push some folks over the edge, though, because I can get facetious when the most senior members saw this as a very professional and didactic forum.
We have a name for "trolls", do we have one for people who need their mom to watch them post? (I welcome candidate names, send em via PM and I'll do a thread).


----------



## 46Young (Jul 27, 2010)

medic417 said:


> And again you met and really could be said to still meet that same definition.  Heck I meet that definition.   Should we ban you and me like Vent was?  At least she actually provided educated education.  You and I tend to just spout off based on our personal experiences with a rare educational post.  I miss Vent I want to see her post.



There's a difference between using life experiences to oppose someone's viewpoint, to spart debate, and just stalking to push buttons. We're all guilty of pushing buttons now and then, but what's in question is if that's you're typical behavior, if that's what you're doing most of the time.

It's like when someone inquires about a fast track program, a bridge course, and the like, and the education nazis would get fired up, damning them for not doing it the "proper way", that they'll never be a competent provider, etc. I would see this and respond by saying that everyone's financial/social situation is different, and they may be unable to do things the long way. The response would be that they went to school FT (back when pterodactyls flew) and that everyone else should do the same, irrespective of their situation. I had that argument several times, questioning why medical degree programs such as the RN or RT aren't PT. I also gave an example of how I did the medic cert program instead of the RN, and how someone can do the same and do better financially than someone who completes their degree first. These posts may have been viewed as anti-education trolling, but these were real life examples and considerations for those with certain family/financial situations, which most tend to overlook. 

You and I speak out from experience to oppose someone else's viewpoint or argument. It isn't trolling, it's just a debate or heated discussion. I could go on every thread asking about employment with private providers. I could then say that the privates suck and that everyone should get a fire job instead. I could go to every thread debating medic or nursing, and I could say that you can get your medic in five months, so why bother with three years of school. I could go to every volly thread and call them job stealing ticks. I could go to every fire based thread and tell them that they're fire monkeys, hose jockeys, neanderthals, etc. That would be trolling. That would more so be trolling if that's all that they do. Whether or not someone's a troll is more of a case by case basis. We all make some troll-like post, but it doesn't make someone a troll per se.


----------



## firetender (Jul 27, 2010)

46Young said:


> We're all guilty of pushing buttons now and then, but what's in question is if that's you're typical behavior, if that's what you're doing most of the time.



I think that's the key. You'll get blasted, and justifiably so, if you walk in the door and start spouting ca-ca. Until we get to know you, how you approach us is important.

Then, a sideways remark here and there, insensitivity; stuff like that happens. It's easy here because there's a lot of passion. In the context of a having respectful history with us, sometimes a sudden switch will get people to actually listen!

But if that's all you are, then please go elsewhere. The only thing that annoys me is when someone spews, gets clearly ID'd as a Troll and then everybody keeps buying into the game!


----------



## mycrofft (Jul 27, 2010)

*Hey, works for reality TV and soap operas*

Remember:

:nosoupfortroll::nosoupfortroll:


----------

