# EMS and concealed carry....



## SSwain (Oct 14, 2011)

Wisconsin will be enacting a concealed carry law Nov 1. There is a lot of scenarios that are being thrown about regarding when, where, who and so forth...

A local fire chief went on record (in the paper) with the following comment.

*"(Fire Chief) said another aspect of CCW that could impact his department is the possibility of weapons possessed by people needing treatment by paramedics.
"If somebody has a weapon, we would not transport (the patient to a hospital)," he said. "The police would work with us to secure the weapon. We don't want to be worrying about an accidental discharge in the ambulance."
"Our thought is ... we don't want safety at risk," he said.*

Essentially, what he just told the populace, was he will discriminate against those who can LEGALLY carry a firearm...possibly to the detriment of that person's health.

Being that I am still in training for my EMTB, I don't have first hand experience with this situation...for the most part, not many in WI do either.

How does the other 48 states that allow CCW deal with a concealed carry?


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## SSwain (Oct 14, 2011)

*EMS and Concealed Carry*

I posted this in the Lounge...but realized I might get more answers here...so, Sorry for the duplicate postings.

Wisconsin will be enacting a concealed carry law Nov 1. There is a lot of scenarios that are being thrown about regarding when, where, who and so forth...

A local fire chief went on record (in the paper) with the following comment.

*"(Fire Chief) said another aspect of CCW that could impact his department is the possibility of weapons possessed by people needing treatment by paramedics.
"If somebody has a weapon, we would not transport (the patient to a hospital)," he said. "The police would work with us to secure the weapon. We don't want to be worrying about an accidental discharge in the ambulance."
"Our thought is ... we don't want safety at risk," he said.*

Essentially, what he just told the populace, was he will discriminate against those who can LEGALLY carry a firearm...possibly to the detriment of that person's health.

Being that I am still in training for my EMTB, I don't have first hand experience with this situation...for the most part, not many in WI do either.

How does the other 48 states that allow CCW deal with a concealed carry?


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## abckidsmom (Oct 14, 2011)

SSwain said:


> I posted this in the Lounge...but realized I might get more answers here...so, Sorry for the duplicate postings.
> 
> Wisconsin will be enacting a concealed carry law Nov 1. There is a lot of scenarios that are being thrown about regarding when, where, who and so forth...
> 
> ...



In 17 years, in a rural area where it is so common for people to be carrying, I have never had a patient that is carrying.  There have been several times where there were loaded weapons on the coffee table or hanging on a nail over the chair the patient is sitting in.


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## phideux (Oct 14, 2011)

I have been a weapons instructor for 17yrs, there is no such thing as an "accidental discharge". A gun does not go off by itself, by accident. It requires some sort of human intervention.

I've had one patient admit to me that they were carrying(concealed,legally), I was able to, with his OK and cooperation, remove his weapon, clear it before getting in the ambulance, and give it to hospital security.

Had another one sort of the same situation, where we obtained the weapon and turned it over to the spouse before leaving the scene.

Had another one where we found one being carried illegally by a local wanna-be banger, this one was found during a rapid trauma assessment, and turned over to PD.

All situations are different, there are alot of law abiding gun carriers out there, don't freak out if you come across a weapon, if you don't know how to handle weapons, don't remove them from the patient, get someone that knows how to handle them. Like I said before there is no such thing as "accidental discharges", but there are "negligent discharges" from inexperienced people handling/removing weapons.


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## Steam Engine (Oct 14, 2011)

I don't necessarily see a problem with the Chief's opinion. Legally armed individuals are banned from carrying within a number of other government-owned properties, so I don't see how a government-owned ambulance should be any different. Plus, most hospitals expressly ban weapons as well, making it that more difficult to hand off the patient on arrival.

Personally, I've never run into this situation myself. If we were called to the pt.'s residence, I would encourage them to secure the weapon there before transport. Otherwise, I would bring in PD.


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## SSwain (Oct 14, 2011)

I guess I could clarify...
I am an avid shooter, some IDPA matches...been around firearms all my life.
I am not freaked out about guns like many people are.

My concern was two fold...
1) Did the Chief open himself up to potential lawsuits?
2) if a pt is unconscious...does an EMT have a legal right to remove pt's sidearm?(if necessary)

 Chain of posession...documentation etc...


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## Steam Engine (Oct 14, 2011)

SSwain said:


> I guess I could clarify...
> I am an avid shooter, some IDPA matches...been around firearms all my life.
> I am not freaked out about guns like many people are.
> 
> ...



1. Perhaps, but since he could argue that a pt.'s weapon interfered with scene safety, I don't see them getting too far.

2. No idea...I'm curious myself.


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## JPINFV (Oct 14, 2011)

Would the ambulance delay transport for a police officer until another officer came to pick up the patient's service firearm? 

If yes, easy lawsuit. 

If no, I'm not sure.


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## VCEMT (Oct 14, 2011)

More Liberal whining from a gun lover? Yes, Liberal whining. That's how I see gun lovers when they complain about any sort of gun control. Bunch of whiney little babies. I inherited a couple of my grandfather's guns, I have them stored in a locked case in my garage. Have I ever used them? A few times. 

As for guns in my rig, they only guns getting in my rig are my two pythons and PD's sidearm. The amount of people that are legally allowed to carry a weapon are outweighed by those who are not. Quite frankly I think the person with training  is more deadly than some dumbass homie holding. Why? Because, a trained person can aim better.


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## ArcticKat (Oct 14, 2011)

:deadhorse:

Check this thread. I found it using the search function.

http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=26041&highlight=concealed+weapons



SSwain said:


> I guess I could clarify...
> I am an avid shooter, some IDPA matches...been around firearms all my life.


That much was evident from your first post.

It really doesn't matter where you post your threads here.  People will still see them and respond.


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## JPINFV (Oct 14, 2011)

ArcticKat said:


> It really doesn't matter where you post your threads here.  People will still see them and respond.



Yep, the "New Posts" link doesn't discriminate.


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## epipusher (Oct 14, 2011)

In Indiana it is not uncommon for us to encounter a patient with a concealed weapon. Most of them legally. If police are on scene they will give the patient the option of leaving it in their house, or in the case of a traffic accident, will take it into their possession for them to pick up from the police department.


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## Fish (Oct 14, 2011)

SSwain said:


> I posted this in the Lounge...but realized I might get more answers here...so, Sorry for the duplicate postings.
> 
> Wisconsin will be enacting a concealed carry law Nov 1. There is a lot of scenarios that are being thrown about regarding when, where, who and so forth...
> 
> ...



I know in Tactical and Military EMS part of your taught assesment strategy is to check for weapons, if a patient becomes altered they might view you as the enemy instead of the helper and attempt to turn that weapon on you. And good luck trying to wrestle a gun away from a Tactical Operator or a Partolmen without them winning!


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## RocketMedic (Oct 14, 2011)

I try and get the patient to leave them at home (if possible), with an appropriate friend or family member, or (worst-case) remove it and store it seperately, turn it over to PD or security at the hospital. With the patient's cooperation, I'm not afraid of weapons- they're tools.


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## AirborneEMT (Oct 14, 2011)

SSwain said:


> I posted this in the Lounge...but realized I might get more answers here...so, Sorry for the duplicate postings.
> 
> Wisconsin will be enacting a concealed carry law Nov 1. There is a lot of scenarios that are being thrown about regarding when, where, who and so forth...
> 
> ...


Been an EMT in California for 5 years now. Never transported a CCW holder. On the other hand, I have _been_ a CCW holder (not at work, obviously), and have no issues with them. 

When I transport someone, if they're A&O enough to make their own decisions, I recommend that they leave anything and everything that they don't want to lose in the ER at home/in their car/with a family member. 

Don't bring your personal stuff in my rig. I'm not gonna guarantee that you won't lose it at the hospital. 

That's my mantra. I would doubly advise it for weapons, because while I personally approve of legal Concealed Carry by private citizens, there are a ton of folks in the ER who are, for lack of a better term, highly-strung liberal hippie wackos, and I would advise my patient against putting themselves in an adversarial position with them. 

: )


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## SSwain (Oct 14, 2011)

AirborneEMT said:


> ... for lack of a better term, highly-strung liberal hippie wackos, ....



Nope...I think you nailed it there.


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## Fish (Oct 14, 2011)

Aren't Firearms illegal in Hospitals anyway? They have those stick you gun in here and fire to be sure it is cleared rubber and metal things outside of the ERs.

The only guns allowed in this Ambulance are the 19inch ones strapped to my arms, buwahahahahaha!


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## JPINFV (Oct 14, 2011)

If the only way to can clear a firearm is by pointing it down a tube and pulling a trigger, then you have no business operating a firearm.


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## Fish (Oct 14, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> If the only way to can clear a firearm is by pointing it down a tube and pulling a trigger, then you have no business operating a firearm.



They make you point it down the tube while you clear it. I typed that out wrong, they don't just stick the gun in and shoot, they stick the gun in and clear it. It is a safety measure incase the gun dischargers. I do not carry a gun when I am going to a Hosp. or at work, so this does not effect me.


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## HotelCo (Oct 14, 2011)

Fish said:


> Aren't Firearms illegal in Hospitals anyway? They have those stick you gun in here and fire to be sure it is cleared rubber and metal things outside of the ERs.
> 
> The only guns allowed in this Ambulance are the 19inch ones strapped to my arms, buwahahahahaha!



In Michigan a person with a CPL can openly carry their firearm into all Criminal Empowerment Zones (er, Pistol Free Zones. Sorry, I get the terminology confused  ). The only exception being courts. And secured areas of police stations (in practice it's not going to happen). I have, however, openly carried my firearm while filling out paperwork at the police station and city hall.


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## KellyBracket (Oct 14, 2011)

Observations from an ER doc. 

I've had a few officers some in to the trauma bay after an MVC or whatnot. Their weapons have always been secured prior to their arrival. Now, I don't know the laws or policies behind this, but it makes sense.

So, if it's good enough for PD, I expect this sort of policy is a good idea in general.

If there are any officers out there who can speak to this aspect, I'm all ears.


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## Cawolf86 (Oct 14, 2011)

Essentially, what he just told the populace is that he is following the most important rule - personal safety comes first. I would not ever transport a loaded firearm on or with a patient - ever. If it is at their home and I feel I can safely remove it and leave it in their residence then I will. If it is anywhere else, PD will be securing it before transport.


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## SSwain (Oct 14, 2011)

All fine and dandy if the pt is at home...leave it there, or in the car...lock it in the trunk...
What about the one that don't have "secure place" to lock it into? (i.e. pedestrian hit by motor vehicle,  pt pnb at any location...)

Like I said, lots of scenarios being thrown around...this was one brought up at class.

So if the PD is to secure prior to transport, will the PD respond to EVERY EMS call just in case the pt is ccw?


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## Cawolf86 (Oct 14, 2011)

If it is an auto ped or unknown/mandown pd will be on scene before us. They respond to many types of calls. If no PD, then fire can wait with said weapon while we transport.


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## saskvolunteer (Oct 14, 2011)

Really? You're tossing the word discriminate in there? Since you're still in class for EMT-B, the whole scene safety bit should be fresh in your mind. Everything the fire chief says makes entirely perfect sense. Last thing you need is a weapon being discharged in an ambulance.


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## ffemt8978 (Oct 14, 2011)

Duplicate threads merged.


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## JPINFV (Oct 14, 2011)

saskvolunteer said:


> Really? You're tossing the word discriminate in there? Since you're still in class for EMT-B, the whole scene safety bit should be fresh in your mind. Everything the fire chief says makes entirely perfect sense. Last thing you need is a weapon being discharged in an ambulance.




I take exception to the idea that the presence of a firearm makes a scene automatically unsafe. Similarly, if that is the case then make sure to remove a police officer's duty belt prior to transporting a police officer. After all, why should they get a pass for "scene safety?"


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## Akulahawk (Oct 14, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> I take exception to the idea that the presence of a firearm makes a scene automatically unsafe. Similarly,* if that is the case then make sure to remove a police officer's duty belt prior to transporting a police officer*. After all, why should they get a pass for "scene safety?"


That's something I do... but when a cop's involved, there will be MORE cops around, so there will be someone available to take possession of the gear. If I ever had to transport a cop prior to other cops arriving on scene, I would simply secure his belt. The holster SHOULD be of a Level II or higher retention, and therefore should do a very good job of keeping the pistol safe, even if bounced around a bit. 

Frankly, I'd have more of a concern about an OC can getting loose than the pistol....


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## AlphaButch (Oct 14, 2011)

egads, an OC can going off in the back of the ambulance would be miserable.

Your company should have a policy/protocol involving this.

Here, the weapon is secured by PD (or secured by the CCW holder in home or vehicle); unless immediate transport is required, then it's treated like evidence, tagged-bagged and locked up until arrival at the ER where it is transferred to PD or hospital security; thus maintaining a documented chain of custody.


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## abckidsmom (Oct 14, 2011)

AlphaButch said:


> egads, an OC can going off in the back of the ambulance would be miserable.
> 
> Your company should have a policy/protocol involving this.
> 
> Here, the weapon is secured by PD (or secured by the CCW holder in home or vehicle); unless immediate transport is required, then it's treated like evidence, tagged-bagged and locked up until arrival at the ER where it is transferred to PD or hospital security; thus maintaining a documented chain of custody.



Just having someone who was sprayed in the back of the ambulance is bad enough for me.


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## IRIDEZX6R (Oct 14, 2011)

Oc?


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## Akulahawk (Oct 14, 2011)

IRIDEZX6R said:


> Oc?


Oleocapsacian resin (aka "Pepper spray")


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## IRIDEZX6R (Oct 14, 2011)

Akulahawk said:


> Oleocapsacian resin (aka "Pepper spray")



ohhhh..


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## KellyBracket (Oct 14, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> I take exception to the idea that the presence of a firearm makes a scene automatically unsafe. Similarly, if that is the case then make sure to remove a police officer's duty belt prior to transporting a police officer. After all, why should they get a pass for "scene safety?"



Speaks to my point - I don't think they do. My observation is that it seems to be rather important to PD that an officer's weapon be secured before transport. I imagine it does have something to do with safety, but law enforcement ain't my bailiwick. Anybody know the regs about this issue?

I've also heard of an ED going on diversion/internal disaster because of some intentional OC use!


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## Hunter (Oct 15, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> I take exception to the idea that the presence of a firearm makes a scene automatically unsafe. *Similarly, if that is the case then make sure to remove a police officer's duty belt prior to transporting a police officer. After all, why should they get a pass for "scene safety?"*



Umm this is just my opinion but wouldn't an armed officer help to increase scene safety, I would think that an armed officer can more easily "remove" a more "Severe" threat than an unarmed officer.

and to actually answer your question of why they should get a "pass" for scene safety, I would say because they Add to the security.


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## Fish (Oct 15, 2011)

Hunter said:


> Umm this is just my opinion but wouldn't an armed officer help to increase scene safety, I would think that an armed officer can more easily "remove" a more "Severe" threat than an unarmed officer.
> 
> and to actually answer your question of why they should get a "pass" for scene safety, I would say because they Add to the security.



All depends, if they are going because someone bit them on the finger then its not a big deal. But if they sustained a head injury or got shot, and are altered or have the potential for it. Gun is a no go!. That being said, I have never transported a cop that kept his belt on. His partner or supervisor has secured it and followed us to the Hosp.


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## JPINFV (Oct 15, 2011)

Hunter said:


> Umm this is just my opinion but wouldn't an armed officer help to increase scene safety, I would think that an armed officer can more easily "remove" a more "Severe" threat than an unarmed officer.
> 
> and to actually answer your question of why they should get a "pass" for scene safety, I would say because they Add to the security.




How does an armed patient increase scene safety just because the patient happens to be an officer? Officer, heal thyself and take out this bad guy?


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## saskvolunteer (Oct 16, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> I take exception to the idea that the presence of a firearm makes a scene automatically unsafe. Similarly, if that is the case then make sure to remove a police officer's duty belt prior to transporting a police officer. After all, why should they get a pass for "scene safety?"



I don't think they should get a pass. I think anytime a transport involves weapons, PD or not, the weapon should be secured.


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## Missedcue (Oct 17, 2011)

I have never transported a Pt with a weapon. It's not the weapon that I have a problem with, it's the unknown stranger that I am in a confined space with. I have had patients mentation change when they get in my rig. To throw a gun into the mix is just irresponsible.


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## Hunter (Oct 17, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> How does an armed patient increase scene safety just because the patient happens to be an officer? Officer, heal thyself and take out this bad guy?



I'm seeing it as the officer ridding along, not the officer being the patient.


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## mycrofft (Oct 17, 2011)

*Metacommunication*

I LIKE the way this keeps straying back on track! OP made a good question.
Given that, with altered mentation or ulterior motive an armed patient can become a threat, I think it parses down to this:
1. Should we alter or delay treatment/transport due to searching for or discovering a firearm on a patient? (Ditto knife, used syringe, taser, etc).
2.  If we will not delay/alter tx and transport, how can we do it safely and routinely?

Too bad we aren't working for "Warehouse 13".


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