# Nurses are way better than paramedics



## MagicTyler (Dec 11, 2010)

I'm tired of paramedics being looked so down upon by nurses. I work in a busy ER with EMTs, Medics, and RNs. I hate the way that a Paramedic is seen as such a lower level of care than an RN and their observations are taken with a grain of salt. Even our field medics are seen that way. I have the utmost respect for paramedics, and think that a lot of them have just as much knowledge as an RN (especially an associates RN). I wish there was something to do to make our profession equal to that of nursing. Such as a Bachelor's Paramedic program, or a higher level of care in EMS. Does anyone else see this in their communities?


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## Phlipper (Dec 11, 2010)

> I wish there was something to do to make our profession equal to that of nursing.



Oh there is, but you wouldn't like it.  There's a post or three about it around here somewhere.


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## rook901 (Dec 11, 2010)

Guess what? The behavior and thought process you're describing goes both ways. Some nurses hate medics, some medics hate nurses. This will never change until both sides are exposed more to each others' profession.

One thing that was off-putting in your post was the statement, "especially an associates RN". This demonstrates your unfamiliarity with RN education. From a clinical standpoint, the BSN is no more prepared than the ADN. The additional time in the BSN program is a lot of research and management-related education. If Bachelor's became the standard for medics, would you deem the grandfathered-in Associate's or Diploma medics as subpar?

As for medics having "as much knowledge as an RN", you're talking apples and oranges. It's like saying an emergency physician has as much knowledge as a family practice physician. Medics have a deep understanding of one area of medical science - emergency. Nurses have a broader scope, covering many more areas, but with not nearly as much depth.

If you feel that you are being treated unfairly in your clinical practice, you need to start documenting and taking things up the chain of command.


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## JPINFV (Dec 11, 2010)

rook901 said:


> As for medics having "as much knowledge as an RN", you're talking apples and oranges. It's like saying an emergency physician has as much knowledge as a family practice physician. Medics have a deep understanding of one area of medical science - emergency. Nurses have a broader scope, covering many more areas, but with not nearly as much depth.




I think this is a big thing. Physicians and RNs are educated as generalists, and then following their initial education specialize (for RNs through work CEs and physicians through formal residency programs leading to being eligible for board certification). Physician education in the US is actually kinda of funky because of how health care in the US has evolved since there are very few general practitioners anymore outside of the military. Essentially all primary care physicians are either family practice, internal medicine, or pediatric specialists, in contrast to non-residency trained general practitioners, where as military general medical officers have not necessarily completed residency.

In contrast, current paramedic education produces one trick ponies. Very well trained one trick ponies, but one trick never the less. This makes it more difficult to spread out since any new roles will require considerable education just to cover the basics, whereas physicians and nurses have already been educated in those basics.


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## Frozennoodle (Dec 11, 2010)

MagicTyler said:


> I'm tired of paramedics being looked so down upon by nurses. I work in a busy ER with EMTs, Medics, and RNs. I hate the way that a Paramedic is seen as such a lower level of care than an RN and their observations are taken with a grain of salt. Even our field medics are seen that way. I have the utmost respect for paramedics, and think that a lot of them have just as much knowledge as an RN (especially an associates RN). I wish there was something to do to make our profession equal to that of nursing. Such as a Bachelor's Paramedic program, or a higher level of care in EMS. Does anyone else see this in their communities?



From my experiences in the ER doing clinicals' for I-85 I don't see that.  The nursing staff there have a lot of respect for Paramedics even though they might complain from time to time about the way an IV is secured or some other tiddly wink thing.  I was talking with one nurse in particular who said she has learned a lot from the paramedics that come into the ER.


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## terrible one (Dec 11, 2010)

An RN vs Medic thread?!?!??!?!??!!? No way? Please go on.


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## abckidsmom (Dec 11, 2010)

I totally agree.  Nurses are definitely way better than paramedics. 

Dana, RN, EMT-P


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## jjesusfreak01 (Dec 11, 2010)

Frozennoodle said:


> From my experiences in the ER doing clinicals' for I-85 I don't see that.  The nursing staff there have a lot of respect for Paramedics even though they might complain from time to time about the way an IV is secured or some other tiddly wink thing.  I was talking with one nurse in particular who said she has learned a lot from the paramedics that come into the ER.



You have to remember that Nurses and Paramedics do IVs somewhat differently. Nurses IVs are generally completely by the book, very structured, from cleaning the site to securing the catheter. This is in line with the nursing mindset, which is to do them according to policy and like they are trained to do. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG with this (and they may often have little choice). Paramedics are trained in skills, but are expected to adapt to whatever needs to be done at the moment. So long as it works, its good. So, an IV might be taped down a little differently, but as long as the medic can clinically justify their method, no problem. Obviously sloppiness and inconsistency cannot be justified, and EMS personnel should do their best to find the best practices that work for them and follow those (as protocol allows), but that's part of their role and clinical responsibility when they are responsible for patients in the field. Also, nurses are awesome!


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## rook901 (Dec 11, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> In contrast, current paramedic education produces one trick ponies. Very well trained one trick ponies, but one trick never the less. This makes it more difficult to spread out since any new roles will require considerable education just to cover the basics, whereas physicians and nurses have already been educated in those basics.



All good points. It drives me crazy when medics talk about how they should be primary care providers, able to write scripts, etc. I'm sorry, but two years of paramedicine education does not cut it for being able to write prescriptions for antibiotics like they're candy. If we could expand the medic education base to be broader in scope so that the medic could function as a generalist, I wouldn't have a problem with medics out there writing scripts and being primary providers. But, honestly, since we're just now getting to a point where we're MAYBE going to have a uniform EMS scope of practice across the nation within the next few years, it's going to be a long road to medics being generalists.


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## FreezerStL (Dec 12, 2010)

> An RN vs Medic thread?!?!??!?!??!!? No way? Please go on.



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IU1bzZheWk[/YOUTUBE]


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## firemedic07 (Dec 12, 2010)

ya gotta think, now if you were to put a standard nurse in the field they would freeze up because they dont have a doc there to tell them what they can and can not do. as if you would put a medic in the er they would excell. its all about Adapting and overcomming.


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## Akulahawk (Dec 12, 2010)

rook901 said:


> All good points. It drives me crazy when medics talk about how they should be primary care providers, able to write scripts, etc. I'm sorry, but two years of paramedicine education does not cut it for being able to write prescriptions for antibiotics like they're candy. If we could expand the medic education base to be broader in scope so that the medic could function as a generalist, I wouldn't have a problem with medics out there writing scripts and being primary providers. But, honestly, since we're just now getting to a point where we're MAYBE going to have a uniform EMS scope of practice across the nation within the next few years, it's going to be a long road to medics being generalists.


Sounds like what you're describing is a PA that has specialized in Pre-Hospital and Emergency Medicine...


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## MrBrown (Dec 12, 2010)

Flying doctors with the helicopter emergency medical service are better than RNs 

Brown, MBChB, FANZCA, BHSc(Paramedic), BBM

... OK Brown shouldn't lie like that but still, this seems to be a uniquely American phenomina :unsure:


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## uhbt420 (Dec 12, 2010)

another nurses vs. medics thread.  sigh

as ems education continues to evolve in the us, it will probly move to 2 or 4 yr degrees for medics.  right now its more of a military-style training which gives you all the info you need in a single course.  the situation will improve with education

at the same time tho, education isn't the whole issue.  a rn with a doctorate degree is just another stupid nurse to some medics.  walls need to come down


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## rook901 (Dec 12, 2010)

firemedic07 said:


> ya gotta think, now if you were to put a standard nurse in the field they would freeze up because they dont have a doc there to tell them what they can and can not do. as if you would put a medic in the er they would excell. its all about Adapting and overcomming.



I'm not sure what a "standard nurse" is, but I don't think that you'll find ER or ICU nurses waiting around for "a doc there to tell them what they can and can not do". Additionally, as a medic, the doctor has already told the medic what he can and cannot do. It's called protocol. ICU and ER nurses have the same thing, but it's called standing orders.

This is the reason we have nurses who think that they're better than medics and medics who think that they're better than nurses. Sheer ignorance.

Sure, throw an oncology nurse into an MVC and he's going to freeze up. At the same time, throw a medic into the CVICU and he's going to freeze up. Even throwing a medic into the ER setting is going to freeze him up without a good amount of orientation. To think that you can just take a street medic and throw him loose into the ER and expect that he'll thrive without any additional training and coaching is idiocy. Any time you throw anyone into an environment that they're unfamiliar with, they are going to need time to adapt.


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## 8jimi8 (Dec 12, 2010)

firemedic07 said:


> ya gotta think, now if you were to put a standard nurse in the field they would freeze up because they dont have a doc there to tell them what they can and can not do. as if you would put a medic in the er they would excell. its all about Adapting and overcomming.



im here to represent the faction that would work circles around your 120 hour advanced band-aid class.


Dont speak, unless you speak from experience, because you only show the tiny horizons your mind can imagine.


i'm sorry in, feeding the trolls i become one...  btw  "o v e r c o m e," that's how you spell it.


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## djm0219 (Dec 12, 2010)

rook901 said:


> To think that you can just take a street medic and throw him loose into the ER and expect that he'll thrive without any additional training and coaching is idiocy.



This is so very true. A friend of mine, who was a medic, recently completed his RN and started working in one of the local EDs. Even after a couple of months he says he is still getting "on his feet" working in the ED and tells us how different it is than when he was in the field.


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## Journey (Dec 12, 2010)

firemedic07 said:


> ya gotta think, now if you were to put a standard nurse in the field they would freeze up because they dont have a doc there to tell them what they can and can not do. as if you would put a medic in the er they would excell. its all about Adapting and overcomming.



I doubt if the standard Paramedic could function in the same areas as the RN or even in some EMS or IFT situations without some time to adapt and overcome. I do agree the Paramedic in the ED can excel but as a tech. They are generally supervised by the RNs and restricted even if they use their field protocols because blood products and many of the meds used in the hospital are not part of their scope of practice. 

The next time you are in a hospital, ask to see their protocol book which may be online on their intranet or somewhere in the unit or ED. Even for med-surg you will find it is a much thicker manual than what a Paramedic has. It is just in a different set of protocols to cover many, many needs of a patient and not just the emergent ones.  There are also specialty teams (Rapid Response and Code Teams) within the hospital who take care of emergencies usually consisting of an RN and an RT which also have many protocols which are similar to a Paramedic but with a broader scope since their operate off Critical Care protocols. This means they also order, do and incorporate lab values into their treatments which a Paramedic does not have the ability to do or the education for unless they are on a flight team and then there is generally an RN with them to provide that part of critical care decision making. But that doesn't mean a Paramedic can't get a degree and learn these things. They however are at a disadvantage because they lack the years of ICU experience working with lab values and all the different meds on a daily basis.  Med surg RNs also often run their protocols off lab values.  Considering a med-surg or ED RN will have 5 - 12 patients at any given time for the entire shift, they have to do a lot of adapting and overcoming. In the nursing home they may have over 30 patients and 300 medications and therapies to do.  A Paramedic usually has only one patient  for a short time  who may be the only patient for the entire 24 hour shift in some areas.   A Paramedic also does not have the education and training to work in an ICU, OR or most areas of the hospital including an ED without an orientation and extra training.  Even CCT Paramedics may need RNs to set up all the medications and equipment for them so they can then drive quickly to the next hospital. There are also many medications and equipment that a Paramedic is not qualified for and an RN may have to accompany. You may also not see all the different very INTENSIVE care patients because a specialty team will transport them which will usually consist of RNs.

Some Paramedics who enter nursing programs are also overwhelmed when they hit the clinical situation inside the hospital. They didn't realize how many patients and things the RNs have to be responsible for at one time. They also realize how meticulous the charting must be and that there is little room to make a med error but it is easily made with all the distractions going on in a nursing unit.  Correct spelling is important in charting and they usually don't have access to spell check.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with taking physician orders either since many medications required to treat one illness may cause another by damaging another organ. Ever wonder why there are so many dialysis patients? 



> Nurses IVs are generally completely by the book, very structured, from cleaning the site to securing the catheter. This is in line with the nursing mindset, which is to do them according to policy and like they are trained to do. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG with this (and they may often have little choice). Paramedics are trained in skills, but are expected to adapt to whatever needs to be done at the moment.



This sums up why field sticks should be changed out as soon as possible. RNs are trained and educated to prevent more infections. CMS will no longer pay for a patient getting an infection once inside the hospital.  Some Paramedics are told all patients will be given an antibiotic which covers everything and field technique doesn't matter.  That again just goes to some relying on street medicine rather than actual education.

When the U.S. Paramedic requires a minimum of an Associates degree across the board for entry, then you can talk about respect as a professional. Right now 6 months of training is a tech.   Surgical Techs may require 1 year of training which is longer than many Paramedic programs but they are still techs and very specialized which a Paramedic is not qualified for nor can an RN just jump right into without extra training.  

A few impressive life saving skills and protocols in the field are of great value but in no way do the protocols and knowledge of a Paramedic begin to cover all the possible emergencies present even after field treatment that still require identifying and correcting the problem or many problems which caused the emergent situation. Treatment does not stop with what is done in the field.  It is very rare a patient will have only one straight forward medical problem.  Even the MI which seems to some to be pretty straight forward will have other issues which may have caused a clot which must be corrected.  A breathing problem may need much more than an albuterol treatment and a diabetic may need more than just a little glucose.

Regardless of how much education you get right now as a Paramedic, you will still be held to the lowest denominator.  However, just having an A.S. or B.S. degree will not make you the same as an RN. Many other professionals such as PT, OT and ST require Masters and Doctorates but they do not claim to be RNs.  The professions of OT and PT also have assistants that require a minimum of an Associates degree. They are in no way equal to the OT or PT with higher education and even with a two year degree, they may be viewed much like the CNA is to the RN in the hierarchy of the professional world.  The PT and OT assistants also know their two year degree is not equal to RNs or their higher educated professionals but they still serve a valuable purpose. They can be happy and secure with that or they can get more education with another credential.  The OR Tech can be happy with their title or they can take the steps to become an OR RN.


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## Journey (Dec 12, 2010)

rook901 said:


> If we could expand the medic education base to be broader in scope so that the medic could function as a generalist, I wouldn't have a problem with medics out there writing scripts and being primary providers. But, honestly, since we're just now getting to a point where we're MAYBE going to have a uniform EMS scope of practice across the nation within the next few years, it's going to be a long road to medics being generalists.



It took 15 years to get the changes together that will be going into place shortly and they are not major changes by any means.

The question is how long do you want each Paramedic to spend with a patient in the field?  Can the EMS agencies afford to have all the diagnostic tools on each ambulance? What about CXRs? Are you just going to write an antibiotic script for pneumonia without knowing if it is pneumonia or CHF or what type of pneumonia to determine the correct antibiotic? Medicine is attempting to be more precise to prevent more resistant strains of bacteria. Medicine is also trying to be very, very careful with all procedures done to prevent more infections or avoid patients needing dialysis for either the short or long term.


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## SerumK (Dec 12, 2010)

I'd like to join the pissing contest. Can someone please tell me where the line we measure from is? I've been drinking all morning!


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## Journey (Dec 12, 2010)

SerumK said:


> I'd like to join the pissing contest. Can someone please tell me where the line we measure from is? I've been drinking all morning!



Start with education first if you want to measure something. The U.S. Paramedic relies on a few skills with very little education and then wants to be recognized as just like a doctor or a nurse. In other countries they would be lucky to get a job driving the ambulance with minimumal patient contact.  

Medicine does not stop once the cool skills are finished which is why RNs need a broader education to cover the many needs of the patient for continued resuscitation and extended care.  Prehospital medicine is a specialty but has not advanced in the U.S. past the tech level. 

The drinking part in your post is a nice touch to give credit to the U.S. Paramedic.  Maybe you are trying to be funny but unfortunately the only joke here is the U.S. EMS education and some Paramedics being allowed to do advanced skills and administer medications with so little training and education.


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## MrBrown (Dec 12, 2010)

Brown drinks almost a gallon of water a day, so much so his nephrons are suing him for breaching labour laws.

Does that mean Brown wins?


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## Cohn (Dec 12, 2010)

MrBrown said:


> Brown drinks almost a gallon of water a day, so much so his nephrons are suing him for breaching labour laws.
> 
> Does that mean Brown wins?



Brown always wins.


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## MrBrown (Dec 12, 2010)

Cohn said:


> Brown always wins.



Not true


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## Cohn (Dec 12, 2010)

MrBrown said:


> Not true



It's not what other people think Brown, it's what I think of you that matters :wub:

lol


j/k


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## Chimpie (Dec 12, 2010)

*Keep it on topic please.*


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## rook901 (Dec 12, 2010)

Journey said:


> It took 15 years to get the changes together that will be going into place shortly and they are not major changes by any means.
> 
> The question is how long do you want each Paramedic to spend with a patient in the field?  Can the EMS agencies afford to have all the diagnostic tools on each ambulance? What about CXRs? Are you just going to write an antibiotic script for pneumonia without knowing if it is pneumonia or CHF or what type of pneumonia to determine the correct antibiotic? Medicine is attempting to be more precise to prevent more resistant strains of bacteria. Medicine is also trying to be very, very careful with all procedures done to prevent more infections or avoid patients needing dialysis for either the short or long term.



You're absolutely right. There will never be enough time or equipment available in the field to make the kinds of differential diagnoses that you need to make to start writing prescriptions on the street. The best that you'll be able to do is write a broad spectrum antibiotic for the sniffles, and hope that that knocks it out. If not, they can follow up with the ED next week, since they obviously have no PCP if they're calling 911 for the sniffles. 

But really, the kind of scripts I would see medics writing are the same that a primary care MD would write for a general case of the crappy lung, where the MD isn't going to do a CXR or sputum culture anyway. Beyond that, you're moving far away from street medicine.

I think that a good starting point for Paramedics wanting progress for the profession would be to stop comparing medics to RN's in the first place.


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## Journey (Dec 12, 2010)

rook901 said:


> But really, the kind of scripts I would see medics writing are the same that a primary care MD would write for a general case of the crappy lung, where the MD isn't going to do a CXR or sputum culture anyway. Beyond that, you're moving far away from street medicine.



Define crappy lung. What type of treatment is done for crappy lung?  A primary care MD will usually refer a person with a pulmonary problem to a Pulmonologist for more testing.  What if that crappy lung is cancer or COPD or any of the many disease processes associated with COPD? Will just an inhaler be adequate?   There is also another big difference between your private PCP and a Paramedic besides what I have already mentioned in previous posts. The PCP will have your medical records. This may not be your first meeting with physician. If this was your first meeting, the PCP will probably send you to get many lab tests done.  If this was in a clinic or ED,  the physicians in either will have to establish a baseline for you which is done through additional testing. Or, they may also have access to your medical records from previous visits.

People do call 911 for many reasons and right now many people are without PCPs and insurance. That includes some EMTs and Paramedics who have lost their jobs due to the economic times or those who are still unemployed after finishing school.



> I think that a good starting point for Paramedics wanting progress for the profession would be to stop comparing medics to RN's in the first place.


Agreed. Right now all is being done is skill comparison. If you want to work in the same capacity as an RN why sign up to be a Paramedic?  A medical assistant or LVN can say they do many of the same skills that an RN does but they are still not an RN by either education or licensure. An EMT can also say the same when comparing a Paramedic to his level but that still does not make the EMT a Paramedic.


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## JPINFV (Dec 12, 2010)

rook901 said:


> But really, the kind of scripts I would see medics writing are the same that a primary care MD would write for a general case of the crappy lung, where the MD isn't going to do a CXR or sputum culture anyway. Beyond that, you're moving far away from street medicine.



Here's the problem. How good is the average paramedic going to be at deciding if it's a generic pneumonia which gets a macrolide and one that needs further work up? Who are you going to refer to for follow up if it doesn't get better? In which cases do you need to hospitalize the patient? Even diseases that can be diagnosed and treated clinically isn't always as simple as a script and a door because you need something in place in case that doesn't work.


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## Level1pedstech (Dec 12, 2010)

firemedic07 said:


> ya gotta think, now if you were to put a standard nurse in the field they would freeze up because they dont have a doc there to tell them what they can and can not do. as if you would put a medic in the er they would excell. its all about Adapting and overcomming.



 First of all what is a standard nurse? From what I have seen in the ER I think the docs are more dependant on the RN's for routine day to day care of patients especially in the pediatric emergency setting where I spend most of my time. I have seen docs butts more than once covered by a quick thinking RN. Not to diminish the PA and MD's roles but really I think alot of PA's and MD's would freeze up without the help of their RN's. PA and MD's may have higher education but that in no way makes them better care givers. Quality givers of patient care get that way by having a combination of god given ability and by having taken the time to obtain a higher education. I have seen my share of providers at all levels that have a great education but absolutely no ability to interact with patients. 

 As far as medics excelling in the ER that's a stretch at best and one of those things that is never a given. Medics in the ER face challenges and depending on their scope of practice must constantly be aware of stepping over the line. Many just can not help themselves and end up in trouble. On the other hand I have a fellow tech that is a full time FF/PM and functions just fine in his limited tech role. He knows and respects his boundaries and is happy providing care at more of an EMT-B level. I have heard of medics becoming quite disillusioned with their sometimes limited role in caring for patients in the ER setting and going back to the streets after a very short time.


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## JPINFV (Dec 12, 2010)

Level1pedstech said:


> First of all what is a standard nurse? From what I have seen in the ER I think the docs are more dependant on the RN's for routine day to day care of patients especially in the pediatric emergency setting where I spend most of my time. I have seen docs butts more than once covered by a quick thinking RN. Not to diminish the PA and MD's roles but really I think alot of PA's and MD's would freeze up without the help of their RN's. PA and MD's may have higher education but that in no way makes them better care givers. Quality givers of patient care get that way by having a combination of god given ability and by having taken the time to obtain a higher education. I have seen my share of providers at all levels that have a great education but absolutely no ability to interact with patients.



You know, I'm starting to find these stories funnier and funnier.

Do people understand what a "team" is anymore? Especially a team made up of different types of providers who have different roles (no, comparing a paramedic to an EMT is not similar to comparing a nurse to a physician)?

Ok, so the nurse caught something that the physician missed. So what, that's part of being a contributing member to the team. How many RNs would be able to step up and make the same judgment calls that physicians are making with the same patient load that the physicians are carrying (which is more than the number of patients that the RN is caring for)? It's easier for RNs to spend more time with patients when the RNs are caring for half the number of patients than the physician. 

Similarly, when did it ever become wrong to simply be good at the field you (generic "you") choose to enter. Why is it that everyone has to cherry pick the one time they one-uped a provider in another field. Why is it that paramedics feel that they have to prove that they are better than nurses, even though paramedics practice prehospital emergency care and nurses practice nursing, and nurses feel that they have to prove that they are better than physicians, even though nurses practice nursing and physicians practice medicine. If a paramedic wants to prove that they can be better at nursing than a nurse, then go to nursing school. If a nurse wants to prove that they are better at medicine than a physician, then go to medical school. 

Until you (generic you) can step into the shoes of the other provider and take on all roles under the same conditions as the other provider, any comparison and back slapping about how 'you are so much smarter than [paramedic, nurse, or doctor] Smith because you caught something they didn't' is just being petty.


Oh, and for the record, if I catch a nursing error when I start rotations in June, do I get to claim that I'd be a better nurse than the actual nurse?


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## Level1pedstech (Dec 12, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> You know, I'm starting to find these stories funnier and funnier.
> 
> Do people understand what a "team" is anymore? Especially a team made up of different types of providers who have different roles (no, comparing a paramedic to an EMT is not similar to comparing a nurse to a physician)?
> 
> ...



  I think we in the ER are the quintessential example of how people of all levels work together with the common goal of a positive outcome for all the patients we see.  One of the reasons I stay on the inside is that we set aside personalities and differences and regardless of education level always work as a team. Professional respect is a given at least where I work.


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## WTEngel (Dec 12, 2010)

I wasn't going to jump into this thread because I really didn't have any way of putting what I want to say nicely, but I am going to jump in anyway, against my better judgement...

EMTs, Paramedics, RNs, RTs, NPs, PAs, Physicians, Radiology Techs, Unit Secretaries, Access Specialists, etc. all have their place in the process of patient care. The job of taking care of the patient can't be accomplished if any one of these pieces of the puzzle is missing.

With that said, there are highly proficient providers in every discipline, and incompetent providers in every discipline.

Skills and education aside, any provider that chooses to step up and say their profession is "so much better" than another, or that there is no other type of provider that can do a better job than they can, is delusional and most likely a very questionable provider in their given discipline.

Until you can work with other disciplines and support the continuum of care for the patient, you are a crummy provider, I don't care what initials come after your name. 

Last but not least, this argument of "this discipline always treats me like crap" or "this person did this, so from now on I am going to be disrespectful to that discipline" is the most immature and weak argument I have seen since 3rd grade...

End Rant...


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## Frozennoodle (Dec 12, 2010)

Everyone here, being medical professionals, should know from the first 10 seconds of actual field work that team work is what wins the day.  Grandstanding, cocky, I'm the one who did this look at me I'm so awesome, BS isn't going to help any patient you come in contact with. Period.  If you want to pretend you're God's gift to medicine then live in that delusion but you'll never earn the respect of anyone in the field.


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## Level1pedstech (Dec 12, 2010)

WTEngel said:


> I wasn't going to jump into this thread because I really didn't have any way of putting what I want to say nicely, but I am going to jump in anyway, against my better judgement...
> 
> EMTs, Paramedics, RNs, RTs, NPs, PAs, Physicians, Radiology Techs, Unit Secretaries, Access Specialists, etc. all have their place in the process of patient care. The job of taking care of the patient can't be accomplished if any one of these pieces of the puzzle is missing.
> 
> ...



 Spot on.


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## uhbt420 (Dec 12, 2010)

medics and nurses are two different professions.  they have similar skill sets but work in differnet environments

it's like comparing police officers and sheriff's deputies

and yea we could use more education but whining on the internet isnt exactly going to fix that.  it will take a few years for the military model to succumb to the general education model.


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## TheyCallMeNasty (Dec 12, 2010)

WTEngel said:


> I wasn't going to jump into this thread because I really didn't have any way of putting what I want to say nicely, but I am going to jump in anyway, against my better judgement...
> 
> EMTs, Paramedics, RNs, RTs, NPs, PAs, Physicians, Radiology Techs, Unit Secretaries, Access Specialists, etc. all have their place in the process of patient care. The job of taking care of the patient can't be accomplished if any one of these pieces of the puzzle is missing.
> 
> ...



quoted oh yea


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## socalmedic (Dec 12, 2010)

uhbt420 said:


> it's like comparing police officers and sheriff's deputies



ummm, they do exactly the same job (especially here in So.Cal). only one works for the county and the other for a city. other than that they both conform to the standards of Peace Officer.


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## JPINFV (Dec 12, 2010)

socalmedic said:


> ummm, they do exactly the same job (especially here in So.Cal). only one works for the county and the other for a city. other than that they both conform to the standards of Peace Officer.


Not only that, but the sheriff is normally the primary law enforcement agency in unincorporated parts of the county (I say "normally" because my parents live in an unincorporated part of San Diego County and their primary agency is the highway patrol. In the incorporated city immediately across the street, the city has contracted with San Diego Sheriff Department for law enforcement. This makes it interesting when calling 911 for a drunk driver who crashed into a neighbor's yard) as well as in contract cities.


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## MusicMedic (Dec 13, 2010)

uhbt420 said:


> medics and nurses are two different professions.  they have similar skill sets but work in differnet environments
> 
> it's like comparing police officers and sheriff's deputies
> 
> and yea we could use more education but whining on the internet isnt exactly going to fix that.  it will take a few years for the military model to succumb to the general education model.



uhh. Its Nothing Like comparing PD and SD...

even though we all know what you mean 

how bout comparing an Architect and Construction workers? (i dunno its 6 am here ive been  up all night!) 

best metaphor would be Apples and Oranges! 

WTEngel said it spot on! its all about team work, if you dont work well with your peers, then youll fall flat on your face!


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## uhbt420 (Dec 13, 2010)

socalmedic said:


> ummm, they do exactly the same job (especially here in So.Cal). only one works for the county and the other for a city. other than that they both conform to the standards of Peace Officer.



well, how bout apples and oranges, or accountants and statisticians... you guys know what i mean.  B)

i love how people complain about ems education on an internet forum but dont do anything IRL to make a change.  i love it even more when nremt-p's complain about it but don't even bother going for a two-year aas degree.  

people just need to relax


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## JPINFV (Dec 13, 2010)

uhbt420 said:


> i love how people complain about ems education on an internet forum but dont do anything IRL to make a change.  i love it even more when nremt-p's complain about it but don't even bother going for a two-year aas degree.



Who says we aren't doing anything? Some of us just aren't in a position yet to do anything about it.


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## Journey (Dec 13, 2010)

uhbt420 said:


> well, how bout apples and oranges, or accountants and statisticians... you guys know what i mean.  B)



Accountants and statisticians will usually require a graduate work or a Masters degree so the education is not as unequal as it is when comparing RNs and Paramedics.  Even when just comparing education for Paramedics it varies from state to state so that can even be apples and oranges. 



uhbt420 said:


> i love how people complain about ems education on an internet forum but dont do anything IRL to make a change.  i love it even more when nremt-p's complain about it but don't even bother going for a two-year aas degree.
> 
> people just need to relax



How do you know that nobody is doing anything? We do have members here who are involved in the NREMT, education and their state boards. There are some who also have higher education.  However, some will argue there is no need to exceed the required minimum until it becomes mandatory. It is also  difficult to have a degree and actually know why or how the body or meds work and be stuck with partners who believe lido numbs the heart or a high flow oxygen mask is called "high flow"  because oxygen goes real fast through the tubing.  This is when some starting thinking about moving on to other professions or further up the ladder of their company.


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## JPINFV (Dec 13, 2010)

Journey said:


> It is also  difficult to have a degree and actually know why or how the body or meds work and be stuck with partners who believe lido numbs the heart or a high flow oxygen mask is called "high flow"  because oxygen goes real fast through the tubing.  This is when some starting thinking about moving on to other professions or further up the ladder of their company.


*
Warning: Vent Like Typing Detected. *​


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## TransportJockey (Dec 13, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> *
> Warning: Vent Like Typing Detected. *​


It might be Vent-like, but I've seen posts that say pretty much exactly that as how the person understands those thigns to work. And you've been here as long as me so I'm sure you've seen them too


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## Journey (Dec 13, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> *
> Warning: Vent Like Typing Detected. *​



Why are you giving me a warning for this?  That post was not meant to be a vent but a statement that there are educated people in EMS. There are many other posts on this forum that can be taken as a vent and should also be given a warning.

I will admit that I did take the examples from other posts since I had never heard of them before reading these forums.

This quote came for EMTCITY, which is another EMS forum and the poster was Ruffems.  If that is you and your quote I used...sorry.  



> High flow Oxygen is any flow rate where you can hear the oxygen flow from the tubing.


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## TransportJockey (Dec 13, 2010)

Journey said:


> Why are you giving me a warning for this?  That post was not meant to be a vent but a statement that there are educated people in EMS. There are many other posts on this forum that can be taken as a vent and should also be given a warning.
> 
> I will admit that I did take the examples from other posts since I had never heard of them before reading these forums.
> 
> This quote came for EMTCITY, which is another EMS forum and the poster was Ruffems.  If that is you and your quote I used...sorry.



Ruff is a good guy, and it wasn't a warning to you. Vent was a poster here a while back. He was saying you posted like her on that post


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## JPINFV (Dec 13, 2010)

jtpaintball70 said:


> It might be Vent-like, but I've seen posts that say pretty much exactly that as how the person understands those thigns to work. And you've been here as long as me so I'm sure you've seen them too



Oh, I'm not disagreeing with the substance, but the writing style and the specific arguments being made are extremely similar to Ventmedic. Ventmedic, for the newer people, was a poster who used to be helpful until she went off the deep end and started slinging personal attacks against anyone who disagreed with her. That got her banned from both this forum, and the aforementioned EMTCity, and she's been caught at both places trying to evade her ban. In terms of style, as an example of how predictive this could be, if I was to make a sockpuppet account, I'd blow my cover the first time I presented an argument in the form of a list. 



jtpaintball70 said:


> He was saying you posted like her on that post




For the record, it's more than just one post, and I'm not the only person making this conclusion. I know 3 other regular posters who are thinking the same thing at this point.


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## medic417 (Dec 13, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Oh, I'm not disagreeing with the substance, but the writing style and the specific arguments being made are extremely similar to Ventmedic. Ventmedic, for the newer people, was a poster who used to be helpful until she went off the deep end and started slinging personal attacks against anyone who disagreed with her. That got her banned from both this forum, and the aforementioned EMTCity, and she's been caught at both places trying to evade her ban.



No she was not banned she quit.  Perhaps they marked her banned afterwards but she left voluntarily.  I really miss her and wish she would return.


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## MrBrown (Dec 13, 2010)

medic417 said:


> I really miss her and wish she would return.



Brown feels the same way about his ex wife, sssssh don't tell the current Mrs Brown 

Seriously tho folks aren't we just going through the same thing again? Untiil US Paramedics recieve a serious increase in education and professional standards is it any wonder they are not taken seriously?


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## MusicMedic (Dec 13, 2010)

i think EMS Should have Doctors on the ambulance/life flight/etc.. just like they do in parts of Europe...

just like Brown is!!! (or going to be!)

but then again in europe the transport times tend to be longer in busy cities...


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## 8jimi8 (Dec 14, 2010)

medic417 said:


> no she was not banned she quit.  Perhaps they marked her banned afterwards but she left voluntarily.  I really miss her and wish she would return.



+1...


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## MrBrown (Dec 14, 2010)

MusicMedic said:


> i think EMS Should have Doctors on the ambulance/life flight/etc.. just like they do in parts of Europe...
> 
> just like Brown is!!! (or going to be!)
> 
> but then again in europe the transport times tend to be longer in busy cities...



Hey what are you trying to imply, Brown is sooo a flying doctor with the helicopter emergency medical service! (/tongue in cheek)

Brown does not think it has a lot to do with transport times but about offering a higher standard of care and unlimited clinical dexterity (within reason) .... must we go there again? 

New thread title: Helicopter doctors are better than nurses? Lol


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## MusicMedic (Dec 14, 2010)

MrBrown said:


> Hey what are you trying to imply, Brown is sooo a flying doctor with the helicopter emergency medical service! (/tongue in cheek)
> 
> Brown does not think it has a lot to do with transport times but about offering a higher standard of care and unlimited clinical dexterity (within reason) .... must we go there again?
> 
> New thread title: Helicopter doctors are better than nurses? Lol



Fact: Helicopter doctors are better then everyone!!!

I did want to state it is a higher care of standard but i didnt want to go there so thats why i didnt state it! lol

another fact: Brown is Awesome!


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## socalmedic (Dec 14, 2010)

i remember vent, here and on many other fourms. he/she/it went off on my on several occasion. i think vent was nuttier than a jumpsuit clad mad man running circles around a helo with an ET tube in one hand and a sock puppet in the otherh34r:. however he/she/it did know their :censored::censored::censored::censored:.


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## JPINFV (Dec 14, 2010)

MrBrown said:


> New thread title: Helicopter doctors are better than nurses? Lol



...but what about helicopter parents?


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## Chimpie (Dec 14, 2010)

Thread closed.


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