# Getting Fired After Failing The Training



## Vanenix (Oct 16, 2010)

There is a company in Los Angeles that hires people and if you failed the Ambulance Attendant training or the Ambulance Driver training or both in 2 weeks, you can get fired. 
And if so, does it reflect as a bad record to your employment career and to your EMT Career?
I have a friend who passed his EMT-Attendant training however he failed the EMT-Drivers training and he got fired after failing it.


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## JPINFV (Oct 16, 2010)

Vanenix said:


> There is a company in Los Angeles that hires people and if you failed the Ambulance Attendant training or the Ambulance Driver training or both in 2 weeks, you can get fired.



Isn't that called a "probationary period" and pretty standard at just about every place that hires anyone, including, but not limited to, ambulance companies?


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## Vanenix (Oct 16, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Isn't that called a "probationary period" and pretty standard at just about every place that hires anyone, including, but not limited to, ambulance companies?



Yeah, he is in probationary period but if he get fired does he get a permanent bad record in his EMS career?


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## JJR512 (Oct 16, 2010)

Vanenix said:


> Yeah, he is in probationary period but if he get fired does he get a permanent bad record in his EMS career?



I see you're in California. I can say that in Maryland, the answer to your question would be _No_. The state-wide EMS oversight agency maintains records of which EMS organizations a person has been affiliated with, but the record, to my knowledge, does not include information on why affiliations are discontinued. In other words, the record does not say why a person is fired, or even that they're fired at all; it just says that they're no longer affiliated with that organization, whether it's a municipal or volunteer fire department or company, a private ambulance service, or some other business.

I haven't paid much attention to news regarding EMS in CA, but I understand that right now, a state-wide EMS personnel tracking system is being implemented. Whether that system will include specifics, such as what a person is fired for, or whether it's just going to track basic info such as MD's system, I don't know. JPINFV seems pretty knowledgable about CA EMS law, and can probably provide more info about that.

Keep in mind, though, that although there may be no bad record in an EMS database somewhere, the previous employer will maintain that information for a few years. If your friend applies for a position with another company, and lists the previous employer, and the new company contacts the old company, they may find out about it. That may make it sound as if your friend shouldn't list the former employer on an application, but that is a Bad Idea. Background checks are routine for EMS employers, and a simple check with the Social Security Administration will reveal his former employment, so if it isn't mentioned on the application, that's automatic grounds for the application to be rejected. Now, the previous employer, if actually contacted, really shouldn't say anything more than, "No we would not hire that person again."

Your friend's best bet is to be truthful on his next round of applications, and explain why he was fired. He should try to find some way to make it sound as un-negative as possible, of course. Whatever the specific reason was, he should say that he now knows the right way to do it, and that he understands why it's important, etc.


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## Shishkabob (Oct 16, 2010)

Vanenix said:


> Yeah, he is in probationary period but if he get fired does he get a permanent bad record in his EMS career?



Whilst EMS is a relatively small community, if you're not there for that long and don't put it on job history, no-one will question the absence of work.


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## SanDiegoEmt7 (Oct 16, 2010)

Linuss said:


> Whilst EMS is a relatively small community, if you're not there for that long and don't put it on job history, no-one will question the absence of work.



I'm in agreement.

Additionally, the new State EMS system does not track employment record, rather if follows which counties you're certified in.

This company sounds like a real winner


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## Vanenix (Oct 16, 2010)

The company hired 4 people who just got out from school and they have 2 weeks to pass both attendant and driver which also includes there probationary period. Ending 1 guy got fired for failing the attendant and drivers training, and 2 of them including my friend got fired for passing the attendant but failing the drivers training. He start regretting why he had chosen this career to have a bad record because he had never been fired in any job and the school that he took his EMT class does not provide mapping and ambulance driving training. He got an A as an attendant and according to the company his performance as an attendant was wonderful but he sucks on driving. He asked the employer if he could just be an EMT-Attendant and the employer said that they need drivers not attendants.


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## TransportJockey (Oct 16, 2010)

Vanenix said:


> The company hired 4 people who just got out from school and they have 2 weeks to pass both attendant and driver which also includes there probationary period. Ending 1 guy got fired for failing the attendant and drivers training, and 2 of them including my friend got fired for passing the attendant but failing the drivers training. He start regretting why he had chosen this career to have a bad record because he had never been fired in any job and the school that he took his EMT class does not provide mapping and ambulance driving training. He got an A as an attendant and according to the company his performance as an attendant was wonderful but he sucks on driving. He asked the employer if he could just be an EMT-Attendant and the employer said that they need drivers not attendants.



Mapping and driving is not part of the EMT-B curriculum. Why would a school waste time to teach it? And as an EMT-B, especially if owrking for an ALS level service, he'd spend most of his time driving, so the company's opinion makes sense.


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## Vanenix (Oct 16, 2010)

jtpaintball70 said:


> Mapping and driving is not part of the EMT-B curriculum. Why would a school waste time to teach it? And as an EMT-B, especially if owrking for an ALS level service, he'd spend most of his time driving, so the company's opinion makes sense.



Yeah but 2 weeks of training is short especially for those people just got out from school and never been exposed in any EMS stuff except for just reading the book.


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## rhan101277 (Oct 16, 2010)

Vanenix said:


> Yeah but 2 weeks of training is short especially for those people just got out from school and never been exposed in any EMS stuff except for just reading the book.



Don't feel bad, I got let go as a paramedic, after just 10 days of field training.  Every other preceptor wanted me to do things their way and if I didn't it was wrong.  Even though the treatment was correct.


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## 46Young (Oct 16, 2010)

rhan101277 said:


> Don't feel bad, I got let go as a paramedic, after just 10 days of field training.  Every other preceptor wanted me to do things their way and if I didn't it was wrong.  Even though the treatment was correct.



If a place is that myopic, and are resistant or otherwise unwilling to entertain any efforts to promote forward thinking and crew resource management, than that's not a place that you want to work. "Our way or the highway" is a horrible company policy to have in effect.


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## firetender (Oct 16, 2010)

In my mind a Probationary period is a "No-fault" thing. Either of you can opt out without penalty, easily explained by "It's the usual...they put a bunch of people into the system on probation, and then picked and chose just a couple from there." 

You don't even have to mention it, but if it comes up, there you have it.


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## medicdan (Oct 16, 2010)

Linuss said:


> Whilst EMS is a relatively small community, if you're not there for that long and don't put it on job history, no-one will question the absence of work.



I disagree with that. Most employers require you to list all employers within the past 5 years-- and withholding information is grounds for termination when the company learns of this. While there may not be a statewide database of employers, it certainly looks fishy when you were only employed for a matter of weeks... no? When your new employer asks why you left are you going to tell them you failed critical components of your orientation?


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## medic417 (Oct 16, 2010)

46Young said:


> If a place is that myopic, and are resistant or otherwise unwilling to entertain any efforts to promote forward thinking and crew resource management, than that's not a place that you want to work. "Our way or the highway" is a horrible company policy to have in effect.



Keep in mind there is more than one side to each story.  :unsure:


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## 46Young (Oct 16, 2010)

medic417 said:


> Keep in mind there is more than one side to each story.  :unsure:



I was speaking in the general sense, not in the OP's particular case. If a company/agency is resistant to forward thinking, they'll be left behind by more progressive agencies, and also likely have frustrated employees. No one likes a dictatorship.


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## DrParasite (Oct 17, 2010)

emt.dan said:


> I disagree with that. Most employers require you to list all employers within the past 5 years-- and withholding information is grounds for termination when the company learns of this. While there may not be a statewide database of employers, it certainly looks fishy when you were only employed for a matter of weeks... no? When your new employer asks why you left are you going to tell them you failed critical components of your orientation?


if you don't list your employers, most won't know where to look.  if you don't list a company, your employer won't know (unless you hint or tell them or you apply to work for a neighboring company).

not listing an employer that you were employed at for a few weeks and got terminated from, or listing and had to explain why you were fired after only  few weeks....

If you don't list it, I would wager no one will know about it


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## JJR512 (Oct 17, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> if you don't list your employers, most won't know where to look.  if you don't list a company, your employer won't know (unless you hint or tell them or you apply to work for a neighboring company).
> 
> not listing an employer that you were employed at for a few weeks and got terminated from, or listing and had to explain why you were fired after only  few weeks....
> 
> If you don't list it, I would wager no one will know about it



Completely wrong.

If you got paid on a previous job, and it wasn't an under-the-table cash deal or anything, then there's a record of your employment. Those records are looked for when background checks are conducted. You're right that the _employer_ might not know where to look, but most employers don't do the background checks themselves; they've hired a contractor to do that for them. Professional background check companies know where to look. The information is there. The IRS has it, the Social Security Administration has it, other government agencies have it—even if no taxes were withheld from your paycheck.

The information is there, it isn't hard to find, and it's perfectly legal for a background checking agency to look for and get it if you've signed permission for the background check to be conducted.

Whether they actually do the background check, what they decide to do after finding out you withheld information, is up to the potential employer, of course. But if they want to find it, they _will_ find it, make no mistake.


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## Aidey (Oct 17, 2010)

You are assuming they are doing more than a criminal background check.


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## JJR512 (Oct 17, 2010)

Aidey said:


> You are assuming they are doing more than a criminal background check.



Yes, because every EMS company I have worked for, and both volunteer departments I've been associated with, all have purported to do more than just a simple criminal background check.

In any event, why take a chance that's all the employer is going to do? It's best to be up front and honest about things like this. (This concept is called _integrity_, and I find it sad that this is apparently an alien concept to some EMS providers.) Anyway, there are ways of putting a positive spin on things like this, or to mitigate any negativity.


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## DrParasite (Oct 17, 2010)

JJR512 said:


> Completely wrong.
> 
> If you got paid on a previous job, and it wasn't an under-the-table cash deal or anything, then there's a record of your employment. Those records are looked for when background checks are conducted. You're right that the _employer_ might not know where to look, but most employers don't do the background checks themselves; they've hired a contractor to do that for them. Professional background check companies know where to look. The information is there. The IRS has it, the Social Security Administration has it, other government agencies have it—even if no taxes were withheld from your paycheck.
> 
> The information is there, it isn't hard to find, and it's perfectly legal for a background checking agency to look for and get it if you've signed permission for the background check to be conducted.


I didn't say it was impossible to find.  I said odd are you employer won't find it, and if you don't mention it, neither will they.  not only that, but if your HR manager and EMS manager who interview you like you, and want to give you a job, I would be very shocked to hear that you will be offered the job and then be terminated because you omitted a job on your application.


JJR512 said:


> Whether they actually do the background check, what they decide to do after finding out you withheld information, is up to the potential employer, of course. But if they want to find it, they _will_ find it, make no mistake.


This I don't doubt.  if they are looking, and if you look hard enough, you will find anything, especially if you have enough money to do a thorough check.


JJR512 said:


> Yes, because every EMS company I have worked for, and both volunteer departments I've been associated with, all have purported to do more than just a simple criminal background check.


really?  most volunteer EMS departments will fingerprint you and make sure you aren't a criminal, but that's the extent of their background check.  

I work for an EMS agency, am a state employee, and have been in EMS for close to 10 years.  When I applied to my current job (FT state employee), I DID NOT list every agency I have worked for and volunteered with.  You would think that a state agency would have made a huge deal if I omitted a job I worked at if it was that important.



JJR512 said:


> In any event, why take a chance that's all the employer is going to do? It's best to be up front and honest about things like this. (This concept is called _integrity_, and I find it sad that this is apparently an alien concept to some EMS providers.) Anyway, there are ways of putting a positive spin on things like this, or to mitigate any negativity.


back in 2002, I worked for an ambulance company called Able Ambulance.  I worked there FOR A WEEK, before deciding it wasn't for me.  I also worked for Long Branch EMS, for about a month, once a week.  After getting tired with dealing with their scheduling nightmares, I left them to.  Not only that, but in addition to my EMS work, I have worked a full time non-ems job up until 2006.  When I applied to every EMS job, I put my FT job (as an IT contractor, I had a few of them), but non of the past ones.  and it never caused a problem.

But your right, it's probably better to say you were fired from a job after a few weeks, and having to explain it to an interview committee (if they even give you an interview, many HR gate keepers won't even look at you), than to omit a short term thing and let the rest of your history and resume actually get you the job.  I guess to each his or her own.


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## Vanenix (Oct 17, 2010)

I am an EMT but sometimes I think that this career is not worthy. Spending a couple of bucks to get your CPR Class, take and pass your EMT Class, pass the National Registry of Emergency Medical Technician, applying and spending money for your State or County License, do your live scan and vaccinations and medical certificate, study and passed the DMV Ambulance Driver Certificate, and ending with no job here in California which ending up volunteering to gain experience, or getting paid 10 dollars per hour which is the same income as working in McDonalds. Then they put you on probationary period and if they don't like your performance, you get fired on the spot.


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## TransportJockey (Oct 17, 2010)

Vanenix said:


> I am an EMT but sometimes I think that this career is not worthy. Spending a couple of bucks to get your CPR Class, take and pass your EMT Class, pass the National Registry of Emergency Medical Technician, applying and spending money for your State or County License, do your live scan and vaccinations and medical certificate, study and passed the DMV Ambulance Driver Certificate, and ending with no job here in California which ending up volunteering to gain experience, or getting paid 10 dollars per hour which is the same income as working in McDonalds. Then they put you on probationary period and if they don't like your performance, you get fired on the spot.



Ya know a lot of jobs of any kind are like that. 90 day probationary period, can be terminated for no reason. NM, for instance, is an at-will state. They can fire you at will for any reason they want.

And as for EMT... the field is oversaturated with EMTs and, in some areas, medics. Training that is too short to weed anyone out, coupled with attracting adrenaline junkies and people who just want to get into it to enter the fire service... It's not surprising

EDIT: and when I worked a private IFT/911 company in NM, I made $9/hr, which for hte area wasn't too bad at all. Better than local fast food or hotels anyways


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## JJR512 (Oct 17, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> I didn't say it was impossible to find.  I said odd are you employer won't find it, and if you don't mention it, neither will they.  not only that, but if your HR manager and EMS manager who interview you like you, and want to give you a job, I would be very shocked to hear that you will be offered the job and then be terminated because you omitted a job on your application.


And I said you were correct, the _employer_ won't find it. They won't find it because they're not the ones looking for it. They've most likely contracted with an investigation company to look for it, and _they_ are the ones who will find it (if their contract is to look for it, of course).

I have never been offered a job before all background checks were completed. Therefore, I would never have been fired for leaving something out of my application, because I never would have been hired in the first place. I have been _conditionally_ offered employment after an interview, pending clearance from the background check, reference check, and drug screen. A conditional offer of employment is not the same as being hired.



> back in 2002, I worked for an ambulance company called Able Ambulance.  I worked there FOR A WEEK, before deciding it wasn't for me.  I also worked for Long Branch EMS, for about a month, once a week.  After getting tired with dealing with their scheduling nightmares, I left them to.  Not only that, but in addition to my EMS work, I have worked a full time non-ems job up until 2006.  When I applied to every EMS job, I put my FT job (as an IT contractor, I had a few of them), but non of the past ones.  and it never caused a problem.


Then you have been lucky. Either nobody checked, or they did but didn't care. And it is very possible that a potential employer might not care about jobs you've held for a short period of time. Employers understand about probationary periods.



> But your right, it's probably better to say you were fired from a job after a few weeks, and having to explain it to an interview committee (if they even give you an interview, many HR gate keepers won't even look at you), than to omit a short term thing and let the rest of your history and resume actually get you the job.  I guess to each his or her own.


If you work for an employer, whether for five minutes, five days, five weeks, or five years, you were employed with that company.

A job application might ask you to list your last three (or some other number) employers, or all of your employers for the last some number of years. If you were employed somewhere during that time (or it was within the last X number of jobs), _not_ listing that employer is a _lie of omission_. I believe many people, maybe even most people, stretch the truth on applications and in interviews. Some exaggeration or spin to make you look better. But not listing something you are specifically asked to list because you're scared it will make you look bad is just as wrong as listing a complete invention that you think will make you look good.

But you're right. If you can sleep well at night, if you can live with yourself knowing that you're a liar, knowing that the ends justified the means, knowing that your integrity is lacking, then as you say, to each his or her own.


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## LonghornMedic (Oct 17, 2010)

JJR512 said:


> Completely wrong.
> 
> If you got paid on a previous job, and it wasn't an under-the-table cash deal or anything, then there's a record of your employment. Those records are looked for when background checks are conducted. You're right that the _employer_ might not know where to look, but most employers don't do the background checks themselves; they've hired a contractor to do that for them. *Professional background check companies know where to look. The information is there. The IRS has it, the Social Security Administration has it, other government agencies have it—even if no taxes were withheld from your paycheck.*
> 
> ...



No private company can access any of that information. Your IRS and Social Security records are off limits to everyone except law enforcement agencies with search warrants. The only way a background check company can track employers is through the info you give to them or through your credit report that can also list employers you listed on credit applications.


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## emtJR86 (Oct 18, 2010)

Seems like the company is quick to pull the trigger on these things...however, sometimes choices in the field must be made with haste, and those who succeed at that, make it a long way.


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## 46Young (Oct 18, 2010)

Vanenix said:


> I am an EMT but sometimes I think that this career is not worthy. Spending a couple of bucks to get your CPR Class, take and pass your EMT Class, pass the National Registry of Emergency Medical Technician, applying and spending money for your State or County License, do your live scan and vaccinations and medical certificate, study and passed the DMV Ambulance Driver Certificate, and ending with no job here in California which ending up volunteering to gain experience, or getting paid 10 dollars per hour which is the same income as working in McDonalds. Then they put you on probationary period and if they don't like your performance, you get fired on the spot.



Think about it, those requirements are there for a reason. The driving stuff is necessary because you can be driving L/S, and you also have a passenger in the back, along with your partner who may not be buckled in due to pt care requirements. An ambulance doesn't take hits or rollovers very well, either. It a serious responsibility, well past that of the typical driver. You're transporting patients, so consider yourself lucky that you don't need a CDL like bus drivers or ambulette drivers.

The vaccinations are obvious. You may get infeected, and you could also pass those diseases to other pts, your family, and general society. It's not all about you.

Background checks are vital. We're going into these pts homes. We're privy to sensitive medical information, as well as all their demographics. It would be easy enough to record this info and sell it for identity theft.

As far as the pay, it's supply and demand like anywhere else. If the supply is low, you can write your own ticket. If it's high, you'll be offered less, and have to jump through many more hoops to be employed.


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## JPINFV (Oct 18, 2010)

46Young said:


> Background checks are vital. We're going into these pts homes. We're privy to sensitive medical information, as well as all their demographics. It would be easy enough to record this info and sell it for identity theft.



As an aside, I do hope that they exempt EMTs from the ambulance driver cert background check soon now that background checks are a state requirement for EMT certifications instead of a county by county requirement. It made sense when a couple of counties didn't require background checks, but that's not the case anymore. Keep the requirement, though, for the handful of non-EMT ambulance driver cert holders though.


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## Aerin-Sol (Oct 18, 2010)

JJR512 said:


> A job application might ask you to list your last three (or some other number) employers, or all of your employers for the last some number of years. If you were employed somewhere during that time (or it was within the last X number of jobs), _not_ listing that employer is a _lie of omission_. I believe many people, maybe even most people, stretch the truth on applications and in interviews. Some exaggeration or spin to make you look better. But not listing something you are specifically asked to list because you're scared it will make you look bad is just as wrong as listing a complete invention that you think will make you look good.
> 
> But you're right. If you can sleep well at night, if you can live with yourself knowing that you're a liar, knowing that the ends justified the means, knowing that your integrity is lacking, then as you say, to each his or her own.




Meh. If I were an employer, I'd care much more about the long-term jobs someone had than the one they quit after a week because it was a bad environment. I look at those application forms the same way I look at a resume - it's not a lie of omission to leave off irrelevant short-term jobs. It's simply giving the information that's actually wanted.


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## John E (Oct 18, 2010)

*Hmmm...*

I think you could make the case that since the person in question was fired for not passing these mysterious "attendant" and "drivers" classes, neither of which are required to work as an EMT in California by the way, that they never held the job in the first place.

I don't list my short time working for one private company in Los Angeles county because I don't want to be affiliated with any company who's sole reason for being in business was Medicare fraud.

P.S. I sleep just fine and I know I have integrity.


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## JJR512 (Oct 19, 2010)

Aerin-Sol said:


> Meh. If I were an employer, I'd care much more about the long-term jobs someone had than the one they quit after a week because it was a bad environment. I look at those application forms the same way I look at a resume - it's not a lie of omission to leave off irrelevant short-term jobs. It's simply giving the information that's actually wanted.



From the employer's perspective, I agree with the first half of what you said. A person's performance on a long-term job, and the reasons for why they left that job, are more important than that they got a job somewhere and decided quickly that they didn't like it. As I said earlier, most employers understand the probationary period, during which either party can terminate the employment.

But I continue to disagree with the sentiment you expressed in the second half of your post. It is not the applicant's job to make judgements about what the employer wants on the application, especially if they're using that "judgement" to justify concealing something potentially detrimental. That's not giving the employer what they want; that's giving the employer what you want them to know, and concealing the rest.

And you _cannot_ omit something that's been asked for and accurately say "it's not a lie of omission". If you were asked for it, and you don't list it, then you omitted it. You concealed it. And when you sign your name at the end of the application, after the statement which usually reads something to the effect of, "By signing this application, I affirm that I have answered all questions truthfully, accurately, and completely to the best of my ability," then you've _lied_. It's just that simple.

Now if the employment section asks for all EMS work experience, and you held a non-EMS position for one day, sure you can leave that out. If it asks for your three most recent jobs, and four jobs ago was a short-term job, sure you can leave it out. If it asks for your employment history for the last five years, and you held a short-term job in 2003, sure you can leave that out.

I don't know what other EMS communities are like, but around the Greater Baltimore-Washington Metro Area, it's a small world. At the private companies, most of the employees are volunteers in the surrounding counties. At any given fire station, one volunteer may work for Company X and another may work at Company Y. Stories get around. I was once fired from Company A for a reason that at first glance, without knowing the _whole_ story, made me look bad. When I applied to Company B, I could have left that job off my application entirely, or I could have put it on but listed some BS reason as to why I was no longer employed there. But my integrity was not sufficiently lacking enough to allow me to do so. In the interview, I explained exactly what happened. And a few months later, one of the supervisors at Company A decided he didn't like working there anymore, left, and got a job at Company B. He wasn't the guy that fired me but he knew the situation, and now he was working at my new job. Stories get around. Stories have ways of following you. You might get lucky once or twice, maybe a hundred times. You might not _ever_ get caught lying. If you want to take that chance, I can't stop you. Just don't try to justify it to me with "well they didn't want to know about that job anyway" and if you think you can lie _and_ have integrity, you need to buy a different brand of dictionary.


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## looker (Oct 19, 2010)

John E said:


> I think you could make the case that since the person in question was fired for not passing these mysterious "attendant" and "drivers" classes, neither of which are required to work as an EMT in California by the way, that they never held the job in the first place.
> 
> I don't list my short time working for one private company in Los Angeles county because I don't want to be affiliated with any company who's sole reason for being in business was Medicare fraud.
> 
> P.S. I sleep just fine and I know I have integrity.



What you considering medicare fraud might be totally legal. As employer i always do background check on prospective employees. All information get sold, if checked hard enough everything can be found about you including what you eat in the morning etc.


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