# For real military medics etc.: LOAC, Geneva Conventions, and you.



## mycrofft

Where do you stand on being armed but being officially a "defense only" party as defined by these documents?
(For non-military readers, the Geneva Conventions of War , which are periodically but rarely updated, make it illegal for offical medical assets and personnel to be subjects or parties to combat, fighting only defense of self, patients, and assets, as well as requiring that personnel and assets be porperly and officiually marked. LOAC are the general "Laws of Armed Conflict" formulated and taught by the U.S. military to potential combatants).

PLEASE note if you are a current or former military member, or an interested bystander. All are welcome!

PS: No, I'm not raising the old one about EMS being armed, I'm asking about armed people being EMS in a battle situation).


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## AJ Hidell

It's pretty much a concept that was outdated about fifty years ago.  In fact, the entire concept of "laws" of war is a ludicrous concept.  It's okay to blow human beings into unidentifiable bits of hamburger, but you'll be prosecuted as a war criminal if you make them go naked.  Give me a break.  War is not a game.  Go big or go home.


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## mycrofft

*But how do you see this affecting medics etc.?*

We were taught to use basic firearms but we learned that that red cross makes a fine target too.
So, better to have an organic medical capacity (skill sets taught to combatants) like the USAF pararescue (PJ's) and Rangers, or separated like the Medical Corps?

(I am reserving my comments on LOAC and GenevaCon)


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## Veneficus

Just some thoughts:

Personally I wouldn’t wear a big red cross, blue helmet, or anything else that would single me out or otherwise indoctrinate me into the Knights of the Concentric Circles.

In WWII it was discovered that a sniper taking out a medic was a real moral crusher for the rest of the troops. So the target list was: "officer, radioman, medic" in that order.

As my martial arts teacher said: “there are those who fight with honor and those who fight to win. Do not mistake one with the other.”

I have never heard of anyone winning in a gun fight without shooting back. In current conflicts, both in Iraq and elsewhere, the barbarians fighting against us do not respect Laws of Armed Conflict, Geneva Conventions or otherwise. They are there to win by force.

In war you are either fighting for your life or hoping somebody will spare you. I would not wager my life on the later. 

You are identified by uniform, not what you are holding. Wearing a pistol makes you look remarkably like an officer. (see Knights of the Concentric Circles above) only having a defensive weapon makes you a corpse.

Corpsmen I knew always “found” a long arm of some type. Even if I were an Army physician, I would not accept being any less armed than everyone else. In today’s unconventional battlefield there are no safe areas or respected parties.

I have never done it myself, but I would wager it is impossible to properly care for people while directly under fire. (which is a reason I think the SWAT medic idea is utterly stupid) The combatants can drag the wounded to a safe area for treatment. You don’t need BDUs, helmets, and all that other crap if the area is “safe.” Sticking your head up under fire to provide treatment sounds like a good way to get killed. Which is probably why military medics try to avoid it? Also on a battlefield there is artillery and heavy weaponry that I think would make providing care impossible as shells fall from the sky or penetrate cover.

My dad once told me: the job of the military is first and foremost to fight, everything else comes second. (seemed like wise words from a paratrooper from '43-’45 decending from a family of infantrymen as far back as we can date)

In the immortal words of Sun Tzu “A prolonged engagement is beneficial neither for the aggressor nor the defender, demonstrating the most effective strategy is a swift and powerful offence.”

In my opinion the only true rule of war is that the rules and histories are written afterword by the winner. I have never heard of the winning side having leaders executed or tried for “war crimes.”

Back in the 1700’s the British were kind enough to wear bright red and white and line up on the field in accordance with a “gentleman’s way of war” It didn’t work very well then, why are we trying to replicate it now? Might be why we haven’t actually won a conflict since WWII. 

“It is a good thing war is so terrible or we would become enamored by the majesty of it”
--Robert E Lee.

From the anthropology perspective war is the killing of species in their home range for the purpose of controlling resources including reproductive rights. 
Clausewitz said: “War is a continuation of politics by other means, but the true nature of war is to serve itself.”  

I agree with AJ, This idea of “humane” warfare is preposterous.

All those in the military need to be armed and fight to the best of their ability. The posthumous medal for getting killed fighting "honorably" is a farce to make your family feel like your death means something.


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## mycrofft

*So you choose the organic capability then.*

Thanks.

Vent, your comments which referred to medical personnel pretty much mirrored what I learned from my VietNam vet compatriots. Suggest you and everyone read "On Call In Hell" by former Commander Richard Jadick, MD, of his experiences in Iraq.

I had a cohort who went on medical missions for his church to eastern Africa. The aid would be dropped off, and near sunset the fighters would roll in and take it at gunpoint. If you had a gun then...too bad so sad.


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## Melclin

Veneficus said:


> Back in the 1700’s the British were kind enough to wear bright red and white and line up on the field in accordance with a “gentleman’s way of war” It didn’t work very well then, why are we trying to replicate it now?



Well they did conquer a third of the world. I'd love to see a line of redcoats marching down the main street of Falujah  

But in all seriousness, I agree with the general direction of the argument.The whole idea of treating combatants humanely when not actually in combat, I think stems basically from the idea that your grudge doesn't actually lay with the solider you are trying to kill but with his boss's ideology. In conventional combat, you are both agents for your respective leaders (professional soldiers), so you try and kill each other. But if you're not directly involved in a conflict that makes a difference to the course of the war, then there's no reason why you should be cruel to each other (bit like the Germans and English sharing tea and playing chess during the ceasefire in WW1 and then going back to killing each other the next day). In that kind of war (which probably shouldn't even be being fought in the first place, if its just a matter of leader's quarrels), the non-combatant medic seems reasonable.

But its a different story when there are powerful and mutually exclusive ideologies shared by every member of both sides. Islamic jihadists are hardly going to respect the sanctity of a christian symbol plastered all over an enemy soldier (although I understand some have crescents now or whatever). Religious differences aside, if the people involved in the fighting really believe in what they're fighting for, and really believe that the other lot are a bunch of evil :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored:s worth killing, then why waste time worrying about the ethics of whether or not a medic should shoot back or not.

I have no doubt that it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference whether or not a medic shot first or waited to be shot at in the mind of an insurgent sniper or ambush group and it makes bugger all difference to a roadside bomb.


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## AJ Hidell

Melclin said:


> Well they did conquer a third of the world. I'd love to see a line of redcoats marching down the main street of Falujah


Apparently they did at one point, lol.  I spent my second tour on a camp just outside of Fallujah that, between the 1930s and 1950s was a Royal Air Force base.  All the buildings were British built, and there was a British cemetery there.  It's gotta be difficult to find a corner of the world without British fingerprints on it.


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## Melclin

AJ Hidell said:


> It's gotta be difficult to find a corner of the world without British fingerprints on it.



Without a doubt. ^_^


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## Veneficus

mycrofft said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Vent, your comments which referred to medical personnel pretty much mirrored what I learned from my VietNam vet compatriots. Suggest you and everyone read "On Call In Hell" by former Commander Richard Jadick, MD, of his experiences in Iraq.
> 
> I had a cohort who went on medical missions for his church to eastern Africa. The aid would be dropped off, and near sunset the fighters would roll in and take it at gunpoint. If you had a gun then...too bad so sad.



I definately agree being armed is not always the answer, but when you are a uniformed soldier, sailor, or marine, the situation is a bit different.

I think medical persons should always provide care to any who are injured, on either side, but I also think that trying to make war look good on tv (making it look humane) gets good people injured or killed. 

As it was said, it is not a personal grudge, but there is definately an "us and them" I support as few of "us" getting wounded or killed as possible.


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## boingo

I served as a combat medic with an Army light infantry platoon, the only thing different about what I wore or carried was my medic bag.  I was armed, humped extra ammo, grenades, c-4 or whatever needed carrying short of crew served weapons, i.e. M-60 or tripod, or mortar tubes, baseplates or shells....Apparently that was against the "non-combatant" status, however there was nothing non combatant about what I did short of the actual patient care.  I pulled guard duty, dug holes...lots of holes, placed mines, went on patrols, etc....I figured my best bet was to become an excellent infantryman and take care of medicine when necessary.


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## spisco85

I wasn't a medic but the medics in my battalion didn't wear the "red cross" and often times just left their bag in the back of a HMMWV and patrolled with the rest of us. Some even took up manning the crew served weapons.


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## mycrofft

*A coworker of mine was a jump-qualified ex-USAF med tech...he thought he was "EX"...*

Newly married, three months shy of passing the end of his inactive reserve time after doing a four year stint, they called up all jump qualified medics. He had gotten his wings while bored on TDY, they put it into the computer.....
So he found himself at KKMC during Desert Storm in a warehouse with a bunch of similar folks, armed with a Browning shotgun and carrying a big aid pack, in case they needed to airdrop medics to Schwratzkopf's "Hail Mary" end-run in case it was cut off.
We know from Viet Nam that the NVA tried to have forward medical facilities but suffered from lack of supplies. I wonder how/if this is true for the insurgents as well? (I'm guessing "not").


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## Melclin

Veneficus said:


> As it was said, it is not a personal grudge, but there is definately an "us and them" I support as few of "us" getting wounded or killed as possible.



Exactly. Its not racist or ignorant or warmongering, its just the nature of armed conflict. I said that once in my final year of highschool in an international relations class and got demolished by everyone including my teacher for being judgmental about human life, like I was somehow morally bereft for wanting Aussie diggers to come home alive instead of in non descript pines boxes.


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## Shishkabob

Melclin said:


> Exactly. Its not racist or ignorant or warmongering, its just the nature of armed conflict. I said that once in my final year of highschool in an international relations class and got demolished by everyone including my teacher for being judgmental about human life, like I was somehow morally bereft for wanting Aussie diggers to come home alive instead of in non descript pines boxes.



All you need to tell them is it's much better for those who support killing innocent people to die, then those that do not.  If they disagree, call them fatty mc fat fats and run away.





Ven brought up a good point.  


There are only two reasons why the military exist;  To kill people and blow things up.  When you don't let them do both of those things, you get stuck in a situation like we are in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Look at fallujah-- Marines were allowed to go in under the guise of total warfare--- all people in the city were to be assumed hostile.  Right after the battle it was one of the safest cities in Iraq, and still is today.




Jefferson has one of the best quotes--


			
				Thomas Jefferson said:
			
		

> We're in a war damnit, we have to offend somebody!


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## firecoins

Melclin said:


> Exactly. Its not racist or ignorant or warmongering, its just the nature of armed conflict. I said that once in my final year of highschool in an international relations class and got demolished by everyone including my teacher for being judgmental about human life, like I was somehow morally bereft for wanting Aussie diggers to come home alive instead of in non descript pines boxes.



whats a digger?


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## mycrofft

*The role of the military is to kill people...ok off thread, and I strongly disagree.*

Other than the tactical tasks of going places to facilitate the enemy's wish to give his life (and only his life) for his country, the American military has traditonally been used for defense, and to further our national interests. Otherwise, all you need are B2 bombers and the N-B-C weapons to "kill people". The American combat soldier/Marine/airman/sailor does a lot more than that, and a big part of what they do is controlling what they DON'T do even though they could.

I'm not going to get into a generalized discussion of war and it's theory. Unless we are in War College or earned a combat patch we have not earned the right nor have the professional preparation to do that. I did Squadron Officers' School (retired before I could take War College) and I have to admit that even about myself, what I have to say, although informed by talking, studying, working and training with combat troops, is still not "top drawer".

I think it is pretty well established by our commentors that an "organic" medical capability (built-in, trained combatants), seems to be most prudent.


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## akflightmedic

firecoins said:


> whats a digger?



A digger is the low man on the totem pole.

A digger would be the grunt, the one who does all the manual labor when needed, such as digging.

Higher ranks will actually say Digger go do this or digger go do that. Often said in jest but the order is still carried out.

Aussies do not have too many PC rules.


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## Melclin

akflightmedic said:


> A digger is the low man on the totem pole.
> 
> A digger would be the grunt, the one who does all the manual labor when needed, such as digging.
> 
> Higher ranks will actually say Digger go do this or digger go do that. Often said in jest but the order is still carried out.
> 
> Aussies do not have too many PC rules.



We're a funny bunch. Don't take well to officiousness and ceremony for the most part.


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## boingo

I had the pleasure of spending 45 dsys in the NT with some Aussie SAS during Kangaroo '92, great bunch of guys, and fun to drink with too!  Once they stopped telling stories about hoop snakes and drop bears and trying to get us to eat vegimite it was a pretty good time, other than the heat.


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## mycrofft

*"Digger" used to be equivalent to "Doughboy" long ago*

In fact the famous folded back hat they wore was known as a "Digger hat" by many.
(Folded back side of what was basically a campaing hat or Stetson allowed hot ejected cartridge shells to fly away not be directed down your collar).


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## Afflixion

> Look at fallujah-- Marines were allowed to go in under the guise of total warfare--- all people in the city were to be assumed hostile.  Right after the battle it was one of the safest cities in Iraq, and still is today.



Haha your hilarious fallujah safe? it has the most active medevac in OIF more IED dets than around VBC and JBB and most EFPs are there.

But back to the original question of the Geneva conventions now days they're more less follow them as needed I have never been told "no I cannot gun the 50" and as for less weaponry being a medic in an infantry unit we carry M4s and M9s and in regards to the the "being armed with a pistol" thing i know for a fact that a... "iraqi" seeing as I probably can't call them what we usually do here but back to the point is more willing to comply when he has a M9 pointed at him than an M4... I do not know why may be in fact that Sadam used to execute them with a pistol. But the Geneva convention should only apply to actual armies who are known to follow the geneva convention (us and Britain)


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## mycrofft

*Good on you Afflixion, hang tough !!*

Thanks for some real life commentary.
I worked with a former USAF Med TEch who in Nam use to man a door gun on a Huey "Slick"; seems fire supperssion worked better than red crosses there, too.
Comment on armed EMS in CONUS?


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## Afflixion

I say go for it seeing as I've been in a stack team multiple times  usually in the 4th position and 5th was rear security. It's absolutely possible to stop initial life threats under fire but DONT ever try anything more than putting ona tourniquet putting your knee over a GSW to try and slow the hemmorhage until fire superiority is gained. that is preached in TC-3 but yes tac medics back in CONUS shouldb e allowed when i worked as a TacMedic at White Sands Missle Range i was armed with an M4 and XD45


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## RocketMedic

I'm a medic with an infantry platoon about to deploy, and although I'm not in a stack, I've got an M4 and an M9. My gear mostly goes on my vest, and I have my aid bag in the vehicle.

As for the Geneva Convention, well...I don't want to kill anyone. If I have to, then I'd rather be a living man to potentially regret the nessecity of my actions than a dead man who clung to his ideals in the wrong circumstances. But I will NEVER perform substandard medicine, and I will NEVER use my knowledge to harm another. If my superiors don't like that, then tough. I'm never hurting a person medically.


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## mycrofft

*Hope you can keep that, Rocketmedic*

I was a Cold Warrior mostly, so it was academic.
You shold drop Afflixion a line.


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## HNcorpsman

im a navy FMF 8404 corpsman assigned to a marine corps unit... the way i was taught and see it, is that i am basically a grunt infantry marine. UNTIL someone gets hurt, then i become a corpsman and i do my job... until then, however i do exactly what my marines do, KILL.


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## mycrofft

*No no HN Corpsman! Not "Killing"!*

You are "facilitating the enemy's wish to die for their country", or whatever!


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## HNcorpsman

haha... sorry, marines are CRAZY and its rubbing off on me...


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## mycrofft

*Our doc in Saudi said "everyone ought to have their own Marines at least once".*

She took good care of them and everyone who needed it, and they in turn got her anything she needed, Hummer, good rats, new cot and extra stuff for her hooch.


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## HNcorpsman

hummer!!! did she do more than "take care of them"


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## thrilla82

ive been a medic in the infantry for 6 years now.  in my deployment to iraq i did everything from gunning ( 50, 240, and the mk19), to dismounted patrols with either my m4 or a saw (which looked funny with an aid bag on).  here in afghanistan i carry a m4/203 and m9.  i get asked all the time, why does a medic have a 203 and i reply with the, "well if your on a 12-16 man team on the border, tell me you wouldnt want a little extra fire power."  when bullets start flying, no one cares what weapon system your firing, as long as you can still fire whats in your hands.  so like whats been said before, unless im doing medical treatment, ill be looking for the biggest or closest gun and putting rounds down range.


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## HNcorpsman

awww  i wish i had a 203 on my M4


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## mycrofft

*"HumVee".*

If they'd heard you say that about this doc they'da fragged you. One of the best people on the planet.


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## thrilla82

its fun to have and great in fire fights but man it sucks humping this thing up mountains.  oh well, you win some and lose some lol.


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## HNcorpsman

sorry mycrofft, i really wasn't sure if you were joking, or not, its hard to tell online. 

thrilla- yeah when i was going through mountain warfare training center in Bridgeport, CA and 29 palms i felt sorry for all the guys who had the 203s... but it would be fun to have in a firefight no doubt.


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## Fireguy

Im currently deployed in support of operation Iraqi Freedom. As for the geneva conventions, my platoon medic carries an M4 and a M9.  Shes usually safe and sound in the back of an MRAP.  Whenever she does dismount we usually have atleast two shooters with her for protection.  They took all of our 203s though. :sad: I guess we arent suppose to blow anything up anymore but they also started to issue shotguns with non lethal rounds.  Hah non thethal rounds in a combat zone...give me a break!


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## mycrofft

*HN, no rancor here, just setting it straight.*

Not much is fun in a firefight I gather, though.

I think the greater question has become whether or not asymmetry in combat extends to the niceties when other so-called civilized contries will accept these sort of illegal acts (targeting medics) if it serves their national interests.

And we are not totally clean here either. We as a country have refused to sign conventions against cluster munitions, indiscriminate laying of mines, biological and chemical warfare.

Is it really a new world or are we just hearing more about the seamy side?


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## HNcorpsman

she??? i wasn't aware that females were allowed in combat zones? i know for a fact they were not allowed on the ETT to afghanistan.


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## Fireguy

HNcorpsman said:


> she??? i wasn't aware that females were allowed in combat zones? i know for a fact they were not allowed on the ETT to afghanistan.


Yes, we have many females(Military police unit) many of which are gunners.  Many dont understand that this day in age MPs are nothing more than grunts.  We complete combat patrols(mounted and dismounted) and run missions with the iraqi police on a daily basis. Ive been in the military police corps for a little over two years and ive never seen the inside of a patrol car besides the law enforcement week at MP school.  I just wanted to  explain that before i got the usual question about what MPs do in iraq.


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## HNcorpsman

yeah, thats a big difference with the marine corps and the army... the Marine MPs are far from infantry... and i dont think females are allowed to become infantry, i very well could be mistaken though...


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## spisco85

Women are not allowed in jobs that are expressly ground combat orientated. Infantry, tanks, cavalry, artillery, combat engineers, special forces, rangers, etc, etc.


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## firecoins

If you can agree to rules of war, you can probably agree to not have a war.


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## mycrofft

*Firecoins, spoken like a true warrior/diplomat.*

NH, this lady went to Desert Shield, returned to CONUS, and volunteered to return and was "wheels wet" (over Atlantic) enroute KKMC when Desert Storm kicked off. This made her the first maxillofacial surgeon in-theater (you might be able to identify her from that); she wasn't listening to bullets zip by, but she spent some time waiting for SCUDS to drop. Darn fine doc, cohort, and lady.


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## HNcorpsman

oooo, she was a docTOR!!! ok... i thought she was their medic/corpsman


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## mycrofft

*Neg, real live MD from Stanford Medical Center*

Carried a pager to go on rescue hops with my Guard unit, over water or not. I don't THINK she was jump-qualified but I wold not bet against it.


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## Afflixion

Ah, mycroft airborne is fun and all but we all know the real fun is in air assault! As to the rest of you guys who go around carrying M249's and such why? You don't have enough weight on you with your aidbag, (hopefully) more than full combat load, water, etc. ? Your no good to your unit dead which is what a 249 gunner would be if the perverbial poo hit the fan. I'm all for pulling your weight but don't make yourself in to an unessecary target.

P.S. It's spelled HMMWV as in High Mobility Military Wheeled Vehicle


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## mycrofft

*Gotcha.*

The Guard unit we served was the 129th Rescue, PJ's (parachute jumpers), actually trained and really qualified for HALO insertions, water rescue at sea (the unit also had Herc with aerial refuel capacity to the choppers), rescue under fire, jungle penetrator winch ops, you name it. Sister org to the one seen on "Perfect Storm". The good doc would show for rescue ops when paged.

(We used to have these PJ's do a pulmo peak flow for their physical, and they got off by overpowering and breaking the meters. I've seen 'em break open lightsticks, pour the dye into their mouths, then crack the glass and activate the stuff in their mouths, at night).


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## HNcorpsman

PJs are my hero


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## apagea99

I'm not even MOSQ'd yet, so I've no combat medic experience yet.

On the other hand, I have a cousin who is a former Special Forces medic and he sent me this advice this morning:

"Just remember the most effective way to save your comrades lives is to win the battle first, eliminate the threat then treat the wounded."

I like the sound of that.


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## mycrofft

*Ap. I hear ya.*

You know, even while we were learning LOAC and Geneva Convention we were practicing not wearing or exhibiting the GenCon red on white emblem, only wore our arm brassards inside tents, didn't salute, no metal officers' insignia, the usual things lightheartedly hoped to help snipers have a hard time shopping for targets.
Considering how good the Bosnian snipers allegedly were/are, they would probably have been reading our underwear tags.


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## medicp94dao

Most of my time prior to 9/11 was spent training.... ie, RANGERS, Airborne, 91B etc... after i was done training, i beacame an Instructor doing TDY traveling around and teaching others to teach. I will say if it came to my life or that of one of my brothers against taking the life of someone else..... I will take the others out before they even get a chance to raise their weapon... 


RANGERS Lead The Way!!!!!!!


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## arsenicbassist

*ATPs and TCCC*

Most of the guys we're talking about, 18D's, PJ's, etc. are classified as ATP's (Advanced Tactical Practicioners). They technically do not fall under protection of the Geneva Conventions. As medics, your job first and foremost should always be to SAVE. As soldiers, your job first and foremost should always be to WIN. Check out TCCC(tactical combat casualty care) and it will give you a much better understanding on it. It was developed by the USN and is still one of the simplest concepts....most preventable casualties result from extremity hemorrhage, then tension pneumothorax, then airway. Supress the enemy...then treat those who couldn't treat themselves. Noone is going to live any more just because you dropped your rifle to help them...the best medicine on the battlefield is fire supremacy!

Cheers


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## HNcorpsman

exactly... when i went to OEMS i had the privilege to meet one of the founders of TCCC DR. Hagmann. one of the brightest DR i have ever met in my entire life... Geneva conventions eh? Im a marine until someone gets hurt, then i am a marine with some medical skills. superior medicine is more rounds down range.


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## arsenicbassist

*fire supremacy*

Like I said....fire supremacy is the best medicine. One of our IDMT's was attached to some Marines a few years back...don't know who, but he had some great stories to tell.


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## HNcorpsman

I love being with the Marine Corps... KILL!!


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## hjp31bravoMP

I'm not a medic, but I work EMS back home. Right now I'm stationed somewhere in Afghanistan as an MP and work closely with the medics here. One is my closest friend. 

Our base commander actually has a brain and requires our medics to have MP escorts on all missions outside the wire. The lead medic (see above) refers to me as his "IBA." (Individual Ballistic Armor) I feel for him, knowing that having been a Marine Corps Scout Sniper previously, it's a kick in the nuts to be armed and not be able to use it. 

Granted, he does eventually have to drop and/or hand off his M16 to tend to his patients. That's where I step in and pull security. We feel that it's a good SOP because I'd rather take a bullet and have the medic patch me up, then let the medic take the bullet and try to patch him up.


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## mycrofft

*hjp, how about neither of you take the bullet?*

Hang tough, and tell us how in the world you guys and women every get used to wearing all that gear in the heat!!?? Not to mention working in it.


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## mycrofft

*OK, let me introduce a benchmark here.*

Let us agree then that it is immoral and unrealistic for medical personnel to be sent into hot zones unarmed and without ROE to fight.
Can we also agree that a medic-level talent as part of the fighting team, even if she/he is NOT officially a medic (and hence not Geneva-covered) is a good thing?


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## hjp31bravoMP

mycrofft said:


> Hang tough, and tell us how in the world you guys and women every get used to wearing all that gear in the heat!!?? Not to mention working in it.



Well, we're in Afghanistan, so the heat isn't nearly as bad as Iraq, but its warm none-the-less. The gear is a different matter entirely! The Military Police and Medics are what you call "FOBBITS" meaning we don't normally go outside the FOB (Forward Operating Base or "post"). We don't normally wear all of our gear and as MPs, we only carry 1 of our 2 weapons (M4/M16 and a 9mm pistol--we just carry the 9mm inside the FOB ). 

In the case of the medics, they don't wear their gear inside the FOB either, though they DO carry their weapon (9mm for some, M4/M16 for others).

When a call comes in that we need to escort the medics, we (and they) don our "battle rattle" which consists of a 50lb IBA (Individual Ballistic Armor) and a ACH (Army Combat Helmet) and grab our rifles (M4/M16). Usually, there is so much adrenaline coursing through your veins, that the added weight and bulk is hardly noticable. (unless you're trying to get in the vehicle lol)

Hope that answers your questions! If not, feel free to ask more. I have a big head and LOVE to talk about myself! lol


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## mycrofft

*I remember wearing 70 lbs of firefighting stuff*

but nobody shooting.


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## hjp31bravoMP

It's the shooting that makes things interesting. We've been lucky so far. *knocks on wood

As for your earlier post, you're absolutely right, neither one of us wants to take a round, but at least the medic has a better shot at saving the MP than the MP does at saving the medic!


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## mycrofft

*Roj that.*

I hate "interesting".


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## HNcorpsman

hey hjpbravo- PM me and tell me which FOB and province you are at , im assuming army becuase you keep saying medic... anyways i am in one of the marine ETTs up north near the border of pakistan so far we have seen quite a bit of combat, and get small arms fire at our COP nearly every day. good stuff.


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## mycrofft

*Calling Afflixion...*

Oh, right, he's too busy being home to play with us.
Good on him!!B)


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## hjp31bravoMP

HNcorpsman said:


> hey hjpbravo- PM me and tell me which FOB and province you are at , im assuming army becuase you keep saying medic... anyways i am in one of the marine ETTs up north near the border of pakistan so far we have seen quite a bit of combat, and get small arms fire at our COP nearly every day. good stuff.



For the sake of OPSEC, I won't give specifics, but my guess is I'm a bit south of you, but along the border none-the-less. Yes, I'm Army, but the medic is Air Force and a former Marine.


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## HNcorpsman

understandable... i was just wondering if your in the same province as me, but it doesnt really matter. anyways good luck to you...


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## newguy

boingo said:


> I served as a combat medic with an Army light infantry platoon, the only thing different about what I wore or carried was my medic bag.  I was armed, humped extra ammo, grenades, c-4 or whatever needed carrying short of crew served weapons, i.e. M-60 or tripod, or mortar tubes, baseplates or shells....Apparently that was against the "non-combatant" status, however there was nothing non combatant about what I did short of the actual patient care.  I pulled guard duty, dug holes...lots of holes, placed mines, went on patrols, etc....I figured my best bet was to become an excellent infantryman and take care of medicine when necessary.



thats what line (combat medics) medics do. they are always a medic but they do everything a grunt would and then some. Combat Medics are allowed to carry 5.56/9mm weapons, so M16/M4/M9/M11...no crew served weapons. 

regarding the ROE...your personal safety and the safety of those around you are your main objective. when hostiles engage you, answer back the same. every Soldier has the right to "self defense." 

That doesn't mean killing innocent people and then plant a gun next to them and call it "self defense."


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## Afflixion

mycrofft said:


> Oh, right, he's too busy being home to play with us.
> Good on him!!B)



Ah I decided to check in on y'all today! LOL. Sorry, I've been busy doing my "capstone project" for my degree, woo last thing to do.

Anywho, to jump into the conversation let me start off by stating that I am not and never was a FOBBIT, I did my fair share of combat operations, I went on MCPs and AASLT missions with my troops in both my deployments, when I was bored I moonlighted at the CSH ED, secondly not to bust balls but IBA stands for Interceptor, Body Armor (besides now its IOTV haha...hate those pieces of garbage.)

All I have to say is that I carried an M4 and M9 with a full combat load for them, I never once "set down my weapon" while treating a casualty I slung it across my back. Little hajji children are like ninjas they come out of nowhere and rob you blind, so hence forth laying down your weapon is not a brilliant idea. As I've stated earlier I've been a gunner when mine got sick or I simply got bored. It is not a violation of the Geneva Conventions as I do not wear a red cross on a white backing, thus taking away my protected personnel status. I've cleared buildings and done all that fun MOUT stuff before too. Also I don't treat in the open, and I sure as hell won't expose myself until fire superiority is gained and proper security is present. Another tip is make your guys call your name not "medic" or "doc" when they need one... Trust me hajji knows what those words mean.


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## mycrofft

*Welcome back*

Oh, your signature...made many jumps lately?


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## SuaSponte

this is a great thread, I cant speak for ne1 else but heres my realistic approach...

roe to civis: rules of engagement that are for the good of all humanity.
roe to combat operators: another way for an officer to **** enlisted types.

in combat there is alot of trust thrown around, trust that u know ur job, trust that u aint a pos & trust that u'll back up ur buddies.

that trust + training is what keeps people alive, roe is thrown right out the window when the lead starts to land.

when we would roll out the SGM(boss) would say: if u feel threatened shoot em in the face, get ur story straight & we'll back u up. and thats the way it was, is & should be.

all these medical military types and still I can't find the correct phrase in this thread: "The best medicine on the battlefield is fire superiority!" <--that is the jist of it for ne1 who doesn't get it, that phrase is real life.

I wish all scenario questions started with "While under fire..." i'd get every1 right! lol


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## SuaSponte

fyi modern US air assault pax dont jump, they slide (down a rope, very slowly) lol


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## mycrofft

*Ropes/Rapelling*

My former coworker who was ex spec forces asked if I didn't see the resemblance between pinatas and people rapelling under fire.


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## SoldierMedic

<---- Currently serving as a medic in the United States Army Reserve. Forgive me for not reading all the posts on the subject. But I've read enough to mirror alot of the statements on here.

Secure the area first and foremost... Get that soldier out into cover, do not work out in the open because you are asking to get shot too! A dead medic is no good to his sqaud / platoon.

If they raise a weapon and I feel threatened... I won't hesitate to raise my M4 to light them up, and damn right I will never place it down.


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## newguy

SoldierMedic said:


> <---- Currently serving as a medic in the United States Army Reserve. Forgive me for not reading all the posts on the subject. But I've read enough to mirror alot of the statements on here.
> 
> Secure the area first and foremost... Get that soldier out into cover, do not work out in the open because you are asking to get shot too! A dead medic is no good to his sqaud / platoon.
> 
> If they raise a weapon and I feel threatened... I won't hesitate to raise my M4 to light them up, and damn right I will never place it down.



Thats the difference between reserve medics and active duty line medics. reserve..."damn right i will never place it down." if thats your response then how will you treat the PT? active duty, my line medic and i put our primary weapon down because we have our secondary on our chests. we place the primary under our *** while we sit on it...sorta like praying position (on our knees) reason why we were taught that is because the primary (in most cases) are M4s or PSD MP5s, too long to draw up to fire, yeah yeah yeah i understand you were only taught with a M16 or M4 "adapt and overcome" BS...but when you get to a line unit, they understand a medic needs primary M4 and secondary M9. so if a tango/hostile were to apear while we were treating a PT then we can draw our secondary weapon (of course you will have some troops to pull security-just trust them and do what you do best-save lives), we use serpa holsters because they are reliable and has a fast draw. i know reserves do not have any "high speed" units because 99.99% of the Combat Arms are in the National Guard, but if you ever get a chance to serve with SpecOps or Line units their medics are a different breed from nonline units. you'll see what i mean when you serve with them. good luck to you in the reserves. 

as for Air Assault in the US Army; that is basically rappelling and load master. no one will ever jump out of the heli in AA school...BUTTTTT when they get to their units like the 82nd and 101st then they will jump out of the helis...its pretty sweet one of my favorites (i've only down a couple out of a blackhawk).

as for Airborne in the Us Army; they learn static jumps. on most occassions the paras go to airborne units but sometimes soldiers can reenlist just for the school we call them "5 jump chump." no HALO jumps, thats for the special people.

as for pathfinder in the us army; experts at land nav and finds landing strips for aircrafts and drop zones...i've never been to that school but my friend told me that it was worth going to.


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## HNcorpsman

haha... i was issued a M9 for this deployment to Afghanistan... you know where it is when i go on patrols or convoys? by my bed!!! haha i never use the damn thing... i just carry more 5.56 ammo.. in the firefights we get, a M9 is useless. the enemy is always hiding far away in the mountains... this isnt Iraq. medicine is the last thing on my mind when im out there. its more important to know how to call for fire, and CAS.


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## newguy

DOC-

Dude, you get to call for fire?! Thats sweet! Being in A'stan i guess it'd make sense with all them mountains. i get what you're saying, take the ammo that counts. here in iraq...hahahaha...its really boring. i've never used my M9, just for show or when i need to carry something light to the mess hall (lock up the M4). Be safe man. One of my boys just died a few days ago after he was MEDEVAC'd from A'stan.


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## HNcorpsman

yeah, if things get bad enough i might be placed in the posistion to call for fire, or CAS... see being in a Embedded training team, or mission is train and mentor tha afghan national army, therefore there are only 3 marines and one corpsman (me) so if it gets bad enough they might call upon me to get on the radio and call for fire... pretty scary sometimes... how long do you have left in Iraq?


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## newguy

HNcorpsman said:


> yeah, if things get bad enough i might be placed in the posistion to call for fire, or CAS... see being in a Embedded training team, or mission is train and mentor tha afghan national army, therefore there are only 3 marines and one corpsman (me) so if it gets bad enough they might call upon me to get on the radio and call for fire... pretty scary sometimes... how long do you have left in Iraq?



bro you know i can't say...opsec. but once i get stateside i'll send you a pic of a nice cold beer


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## dmdenike

When i was in the Marines (got out last month) our corpsman (navy docs) carried M4's just like us and fought just like us.  Just thought I'd share.


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## mycrofft

*Thanks D!*

During Cold War and into Bush I's actions (Grenada, Panama, DESERT SHIELD/STORM) we were taught LOAC and lethal force doctrine, but we were told unofficially to be ready to do more than just stand by.


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