# Another American to Australia?



## skippy54

Hey guys, I know there's quite a few of these threads floating around and they were all informative in their own way.  However, my questions are coming from a different starting point which makes me want to seek.. clarification.

I am (start drumroll) an EMT-basic.  That's right, nothing more.  For the Australians who I hope can answer me, this is essentially BLS sans the IV's.  There's only 140 or so hours of in class education, and we give five drugs - O2, ASA, what you call salbutamol, epinephrine via auto-injector, and ipratroprium bromide.  We also can give nitroglycerin, so long as the patient has their own and is incapable of taking it for themselves. 

I'm not wondering if I can be hired as a paramedic and hop on the street right away - that would be ridiculous.  What I'm trying to discern is what the path to becoming an Australian paramedic would be, and how to go about it.  It's hard for me to justify getting my EMT-P license in the United States, and paying the money to do so, when it would ultimately be worthless abroad.  Besides, I'd rather learn more than how to respond to symptom X or situation Y with protocol Z.  

My questions, in no particular order:

1.) With an EMT-Basic license, and full time experience of three years in BLS, what would I qualify to test for?  I imagine a certificate IV includes intravenous access, so that's right out, but I'm just guessing - it's been impossible to find a common scope of practice.

2.) Should I find an employer who will put me through school while I work for them, or go to school and then find an employer?  It seems the former is more typical, but probably more difficult to do for a foreigner.

3.) Does anybody know of a state/territory who is hiring, and works with foreign applicants?  St John's was friendly enough on the telephone, and said they do accept international applicants, but it was hard to get much further than that.  I think she was having a hard time understanding me thanks to the American accent. 

What I've read of Aussie EMS makes me smile and get giddy, I just want to make sure I'm taking the best route and not running in to dead ends.

Thanks for reading, and thanks in advance for any help!


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## MrBrown

You would be required to complete a three year Bachelor of Health Science degree in Paramedicine and then get hired.  Competition is tough.

The problem here is you would need a student visa then a work visa, an employer is unlikely to sponsor you for a work visa without substantive experience as you will not meet the points requirements for immigration.

Correct you are in saying there is no comparable scope of practice, what you have is about a third of a Paramedic scope and maybe a quarter of an Intensive Care Paramedic but with perhaps one thireith of the education, yes you read that right.

Browns advice is to find a reputable Paramedic (ALS) program and do that, get a couple years of experience in a high quality system, upgrade to a Bachleors Degree in Paramedicine (which Brown knows in the US are few and far between) and think of Australia again in maybe five years.

Oh and stay the heck away from WA, they are death merchants.


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## Scott33

skippy54 said:


> Should I find an employer who will put me through school while I work for them, or go to school and then find an employer



Immigration to another county involves obtaining a visa. Anyone can get a job abroad, but the employer does not issue visas - the government does. You have to satisfy their requirements, not the employers. Unless you already have an "in" to Australia (immediate family, dual nationality etc), as an EMT-Basic, you are going to have a tough time. 

Unlike the US, Australian immigration does have a "points system", but an 140 hour EMT-Basic course will not be nearly enough. Think - degrees in engineering etc.

You _may_ be able to study in Australia, in which case you will have a student visa. This means you cannot work (other than  a few hours "on campus" in some instances) and will be out of status, and therefore deportable, when your study ends.

Australian EMS, like many other countries, are requiring degrees as a paramedic for entry to practice.


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## Scott33

Ha... you beat me to it Brown.


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## skippy54

What's a good school (or set of schools) to look at for a paramedic degree in Australia?


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## MrBrown

skippy54 said:


> What's a good school (or set of schools) to look at for a paramedic degree in Australia?



Victoria - Monash University
Queensland - QUT
New South Wales - Charles Sturt
SA - University of South Australia


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## Melclin

The cert IV does not include IV. IV stuff is considered a fairly big deal here compared to the US it would seem. RNs for example cannot start IVs straight out of uni. They have to do an extra course. So cert IV ambulance attendants most certainly cannot. 

Something to look into might be the distance education programs.

I'm fairly certain Charles Sturt just started one, but you would still need some face time here and a student visa. None the less, maybe something worth inquiring about. 

I know we have some reciprocity deals regarding exchange students in the UK. You might (its a long shot) be able to fineagal something like that, on the off chance there is a uni in the US that has a paramedic program we have anything to do with. 

At the very least if you further you education in the US first, which seems like the best option, you will want to make sure its recognised by Aus universities so you can get some credit and its recognised in the visa crap.

Your best bet is to marry an Australian


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## MrBrown

is Natalie Imbruligia still single? 

Also is should be noted in Australia when you see "Certificate IV" its the roman number and not IV as in intravenous cannulation.  While we have Certificate Level 1, Level 2 etc AU use Cert I, Cert II etc ... kind of lime EMT-I vs EMT 1 in California.

Volunteer Ambulance Officers (of which Brown believes Tas is the only state to still use volunteers) complete Certificate IV in Emergency Health but its a very basic qualification analougous to somewhere between First Responder and EMT in the US.


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## Melclin

MrBrown said:


> is Natalie Imbruligia still single?
> 
> Also is should be noted in Australia when you see "Certificate IV" its the roman number and not IV as in intravenous cannulation.  While we have Certificate Level 1, Level 2 etc AU use Cert I, Cert II etc ... kind of lime EMT-I vs EMT 1 in California.
> 
> Volunteer Ambulance Officers (of which Brown believes Tas is the only state to still use volunteers) complete Certificate IV in Emergency Health but its a very basic qualification analougous to somewhere between First Responder and EMT in the US.



No. 

I've taken to watching women's cricket. Its a joke of a sport, but I have a massive crush on one of their bowlers. Imbruglia is safe...for now.

We have vollies here in Vic and I believe they still make extensive use of them in Western Australia.


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## MrBrown

Melclin said:


> No.
> 
> I've taken to watching women's cricket. Its a joke of a sport, but I have a massive crush on one of their bowlers. Imbruglia is safe...for now.
> 
> We have vollies here in Vic and I believe they still make extensive use of them in Western Australia.



So you probably have the entire X Factor on DVR or something right? 

Brown caught some of the womens ASB Tennis Classic here a few weeks ago ... 

Anyway, WA should be sawed off out of embarrasment and never mentioned in the context of twenty first century paramedic practice as far as Australia is concerned.


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## Melclin

MrBrown said:


> So you probably have the entire X Factor on DVR or something right?
> 
> Brown caught some of the womens ASB Tennis Classic here a few weeks ago ...
> 
> Anyway, WA should be sawed off out of embarrasment and never mentioned in the context of twenty first century paramedic practice as far as Australia is concerned.



No X factor. Too busy watching Scarlett Johannsen films, interviews and grainy telephoto lens footage on repeat. 

Well yeah but they've got all my money buried in their ground, so someone has to dig it up and send it to the eastern states. I hear their mine medics earn a pretty penny. 

Anyway, if you still wanna come to Australia, OP, after listening to us lecherous antipodean homo paramedicus' then I reckon that getting formal healthcare uni education in the states is a must first.


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## skippy54

Therein lies the problem - there is no formal university based paramedic education in the United States. It takes roughly three semesters to go from layman to paramedic, and this is done through tech schools.

If cert iv ambulance officers are less than an emt-b, there may be more hope than meets the eye. Ambulance officer is listed as a skilled occupation on the GSM list. St John said they would take my application with my qualifications, so we'll see.. it would still mean 3 or so years of school, which is a-okay by me.


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## MrBrown

Stay as far away from St John as possible mate


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## Scott33

St John said they would take you as the are predominantly volunteers, so what would you do for work seeing as visas are usually job-specific.

See the problem here?


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## skippy54

They said I would be considered if I applied for a full time student paramedic spot.  It's not a volly thing.

I must ask, though, what's wrong with St John?


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## MrBrown

St John are death merchants who kill people.  They do not have peadiatric guidelines or amiodarone.


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## Stew

In my brief scan I think people are confusing the "cert IV" aspect. It is read as Cert 4 (certificate 4, below a Diploma-or in American speak an associates) not cert intravenous.

All good?! 

What has been said is pretty much the go in Australia, internal nationally recognised training provided by Ambulance Services is on the way out/has already gone. Completing a three year undergraduate degree is almost the only way to go if you're only an EMT-B. 

Good luck whichever way you go.


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## jrm818

skippy54 said:


> Therein lies the problem - there is no formal university based paramedic education in the United States. It takes roughly three semesters to go from layman to paramedic, and this is done through tech schools.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Just noticed this: not quite true.  There are several 4 year programs in the states.  JEMS had a list at one point.  Off the top of my head the University of Pittsburgh and perhaps George Washington?, among a few others.


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## Smash

MrBrown said:


> St John are death merchants who kill people.



Who is it you work for again?


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## skippy54

Well, having read everyone's advice I've gone ahead and tossed a few applications off to universities.  

I do have a question, though.  What's different about Victoria?  All the other universities had a pretty strict permanent residence/citizen requirement for the paramedic course, whereas in Victoria you can complete your clinical rotations with AV regardless.

What gives?


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## Afflixion

There are a few bachelors programs in paramedicine in the U.S. I can only think of two off the top of my head right now one being Loma Linda University and one being Western Carolina University. There are not many that offer 4 year degrees, but numerous schools offer associates in paramedicine, just about every major community college offers a program.


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## MrBrown

skippy54 said:


> Well, having read everyone's advice I've gone ahead and tossed a few applications off to universities.
> 
> I do have a question, though.  What's different about Victoria?  All the other universities had a pretty strict permanent residence/citizen requirement for the paramedic course, whereas in Victoria you can complete your clinical rotations with AV regardless.
> 
> What gives?



You must be on the Degree program to complete the clinical component with AV.  Its not like you can just roll up and get on.


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## skippy54

> You must be on the Degree program to complete the clinical component with AV. Its not like you can just roll up and get on.



Yes, I know.  I was wondering why other ambulance services don't have the same for international students.  In Queensland, for example, you have to be a permanent resident/citizen to even set off on a paramedic degree.


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## MrBrown

skippy54 said:


> Yes, I know.  I was wondering why other ambulance services don't have the same for international students.  In Queensland, for example, you have to be a permanent resident/citizen to even set off on a paramedic degree.



And its the same for Victoria or really any Australian university.  Check with the Department of Immigration and Multicultural Affairs.


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## skippy54

I just thought I'd drop in and let you guys know, I was accepted in to the bachelor of health science/master of paramedic practice at La Trobe.  I'll be leaving shortly!


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## Melclin

skippy54 said:


> I just thought I'd drop in and let you guys know, I was accepted in to the bachelor of health science/master of paramedic practice at La Trobe.  I'll be leaving shortly!



Niiice. This year? 

You'll have to let us know what its like.


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## MEDIC802

It is appeareantly a mute point now but the University of South Alabama(USA) offers ad BS program in EMS.


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## shfd739

MEDIC802 said:


> It is appeareantly a mute point now but the University of South Alabama(USA) offers ad BS program in EMS.



USA has already graduated one maybe two classes. Looks to be a strong program with great instructors. If I still lived in Mobile I'd be in it. I did basic and paramedic there '01-'03.


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## the_negro_puppy

I'd just like to chip in that a degree is not required for some services such as in Queensland where you do 2.5 years on the job training and finish with a diploma and same clinical level as degree graduates. Note this method is harder to get into with around 100 accepted last year state wide. Though you would probably need to be an Aus perm resident at least


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## Traveling_Medic

*bachelors in ems*

For anyone interested you may also obtain a Bachelors from UT San Antonio via distance learning.

.. sorry I have to split up the link because I am not ye qualified to post a url.

uthscsa.
edu/shp/ehs/bachelor.asp


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## usalsfyre

Traveling_Medic said:


> For anyone interested you may also obtain a Bachelors from UT San Antonio via distance learning.
> 
> .. sorry I have to split up the link because I am not ye qualified to post a url.
> 
> uthscsa.
> edu/shp/ehs/bachelor.asp



I've been looking into this, are you a current student?


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## skippy54

Hey guys, you had wanted to know what the new program at La Trobe was like, and while I haven't gone more than a month in to it I feel I can offer a little insight.

The whole curriculum is still being written. I'm in the 2nd class to ever do it, the first class probably has it a bit rougher as a result. From what I can tell, however, it's shaping up to be one hell of a program. The program coordinator is a paramedic herself, and the focus of this course vs other programs is expanded scopes of practice. I think they want to at least expose us to things more associated with MICA paramedics as opposed to just what you'd get from any other paramedic degree/diploma. We do a common first year with all the other health sciences (nurses, podiatrists, physios, etc) where we do all the foundational things like a&p, and there's a lot of emphasis on social work at least this semester. Then we have three more years focused on paramedic things afterwards. It's being designed with bringing more advanced level paramedics to rural areas in mind, I believe.

They really push us to get active with as many extracurricular groups as possible, too. All in all I feel like it's going to be a fantastic next four years!


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## FloridaEMT

My situation is almost the same as Skippy54 so there is some great advice on this thread for my situation. I have acouple more questions but I won't take over this thread to ask them.


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## MrBrown

FloridaEMT said:


> My situation is almost the same as Skippy54 so there is some great advice on this thread for my situation. I have acouple more questions but I won't take over this thread to ask them.



What can us down underererers help you with?


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## FloridaEMT

I'm about to attend Paramedic classes here in Florida but my girlfriend just moved back to Melbourne. Looking into visa options I would be able to come into the country on a temporary to permanent visa due to her citizenship. 

Would it be better for me to complete the year course here then move and try to get a job with minimal Medic experience? I've been an EMT for 6 years.

Or should I move to AUS and attend Uni for my Medic?


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## Scott33

How long have you been / were you living together?


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## FloridaEMT

1.5 years


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## Scott33

If either option is open equally to you, and the visa application is successful, I would suggest doing your course in Australia otherwise you run the risk of problems with reciprocity of US qualifications.


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## MrBrown

Ambulance Victoria only recruit graduates and are spoilt for choice when it comes to who to pick.

Come down to Australia and visit for a few months, you can get an electronic tourist visa for up to 90 days for AUD20 and the great Australian flag carrier Qantas can get you there in style.

Get your AU residency and go to Monash to get the BEmergHealth and you are set.

Despite an intense hatred of Australians by us Kiwi's and vice versa, AU is pretty awesome.

Several of our forum members are AV Paramedics


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## skippy54

Alternatively, if you want to edge up on your graduate competitors, check out the MSc of paramedic practice at La Trobe uni.


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## tcd

I know this is an aged thread, but I found it interesting.  

OP - if you're still around, please post an update on your progress so far.  I'm also curious about how you managed, in the span of a few months, to apply, be accepted, and move to Australia to begin the program.  Did you have money already saved up for this purpose, as it couldn't have been cheap?  Did they provide housing for you?  Are you offered any opportunities to work while in country, as long as you're in the program?


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## Oz army medic

Hi all I agree with Mr Brown and others  on comment's in regards to Wa and St Johns Ambulance when I returned from Army went in for a chat they are pretty much full of BS and bad manners. I live in the remote part of the bush in Wa. But there is another way for this person the place is called Paramedical college but i fear it maybe to costly for them. Not sure but with St Johns I would watch my six. Lol


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