# Ambulance Hits Medevac Chopper



## VentMedic (Sep 15, 2008)

How close do you park or drive near a helicopter?


*Ambulance hits medevac chopper at deadly N.J. crash scene*

By JASON NARK
Philadelphia Daily News

http://www.philly.com/dailynews/loc...devac_chopper_at_deadly_N_J__crash_scene.html



> An ambulance rammed a helicopter while responding to a South Jersey car accident that killed four people Thursday night, police said.


 



> Meanwhile, an ambulance from nearby Franklin Township, Gloucester County, was approaching the accident scene.
> Castellanos said the roof of the ambulance struck the rear rotor of the helicopter, which was still running.


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## MMiz (Sep 15, 2008)

I saw that yesterday.  I can't understand how the plane still took off, but I'm glad it didn't cause a crash.


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## Ridryder911 (Sep 15, 2008)

Okay, maybe it just me.. but *really how hard is it to see *a helicopter? Geez..We all make mistakes but where did these people get their EVO license through a correspondence courses? 

C'mon everyone knows (or at least should know) LZ precautions!!. IF you don't; then you don't need to be on the scene!

R/r 911


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## VentMedic (Sep 15, 2008)

MMiz said:


> I saw that yesterday. I can't understand how the plane still took off,


 
Maybe the pilot thought it was safer than waiting for the next ambulance to run into the helicopter.


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## marineman (Sep 15, 2008)

Wow, common sense really isn't that common after all. The first failure is on the part of the driver who definitely should have seen the chopper, I mean the tail does have a flashing beacon light and at least on my local chopper that's where the red and green lights are located. The next failure is on whoever secured the LZ, your job isn't just to find a spot and call coordinates it's to ensure that the landing zone is safe and clear of all hazards and remains that way until the chopper is gone.

I feel that all involved should be forced to wear a dunce cap until Darwin gets back to work.


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## EMTCop86 (Sep 15, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> Okay, maybe it just me.. but *really how hard is it to see *a helicopter?
> 
> R/r 911


 
Well, apparently really hard for that person driving the ambulance, lol.


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## Jon (Sep 15, 2008)

Oops.

I guess SouthStar may try to get out of the scene flight business?


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## Flight-LP (Sep 15, 2008)

Moron EMT aside, I think the even bigger idiot is the pilot. You DO NOT depart a scene with an impacted tail rotor until the FAA or NTSB clears that unit to fly. If the rotor was moving, even at idle speed, the RPM are significant enough to damage the tail rotor. As it is the single device that prevents you from spinning out of control (i.e. counter-torque), you would think that a resonably intelligent person would defer any attempts to fly until a pro inspected it. But then again, we are talking about N.J. EMS! I guess the State's reputation on the ground rises to the air.

Plus I seriously doubt the pilot fixed anything, thats why God invented mechanics! Please tell me while the pilot was jeopardizing his life and a multi-million dollar machine, the crew was smart enough to not ride with him?!?!?


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## Outbac1 (Sep 15, 2008)

Incredibly stupid on several peoples part. One of the first rules of helicopters is to never go near the tail. No reason for this incident at all except stupidity.


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## rhan101277 (Sep 15, 2008)

Yeah this kind of stuff doesn't make much since.  Wonder if the EMT still has a job?  Maybe these landings need to have stiff military type training.


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## Flight-LP (Sep 15, 2008)

rhan101277 said:


> Yeah this kind of stuff doesn't make much since.  Wonder if the EMT still has a job?  Maybe these landings need to have stiff military type training.



What do you mean exactly?


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## JPINFV (Sep 16, 2008)

Ok students, todays lesson is how not to hit a helicopter.

Ok, so this is a helicopter. 







See the things on the top and to the right?

No, not the shark...


Yes, those things.





You see, they spin. Fast. You don't want to get near them, just ask the late Doctor Romano:
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avN23MoCriM[/YOUTUBE].

Ok, scene size up time. Let's look at a size comparison. 





Ok, the foreground has an ambulance. Someday you'll be in one of those. That thing in the background is a helicopter. Yea, they're pretty friggin big. Someday, when you grow up and if you eat your weaties, you may end up driving that thing in the foreground. Seeing as you're sitting here listening to a lecture on the finer points of not hitting large objects with rotating blades, hopefully you'll never end up driving that big thing in the background. 

Now, in order to make sure that a blind poodle can see it, they stick these things called lights on them. Yes, they are very similar to the lights on the ambulance. You are not a moth, and that is not a flame. The object is to avoid the thing the lights are attached to.

Next weeks lesson, 1001 ways to not drop a patient.


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## jrm818 (Sep 16, 2008)

Maybe one of you flight types can confirm this - I was under the impression that any strike of one of the rotors required a full engine/transmission teardown and rebuild - not just replacement of "a couple of blades."  I'd presume the news got that minor detail wrong, as I can't imagine a service skirting by under the FAA's nose like that unnoticed.


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## EMTCop86 (Sep 16, 2008)

JPINFV thank you for the awesome lesson and a good laugh! Can't wait until 1001 ways to not drop a patient.


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## medicdan (Sep 16, 2008)

Along the lines of what EMTCop is saying, will/would the NTSB get involved? With the incredible number of fatal and nearly-fatal medical helicopter crashes recently, I hope there are some analysis being done higher up as to the rish factors ad what can be done to prevent more accidents. Who is responsible for investigating this? Is it the FAA? NTSB? DOT? DOH? Trade orginizations? Manufacturers? ATC?


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## mikie (Sep 16, 2008)

are there any real photos of the collision?


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## Flight-LP (Sep 16, 2008)

emt-student said:


> Along the lines of what EMTCop is saying, will/would the NTSB get involved? With the incredible number of fatal and nearly-fatal medical helicopter crashes recently, I hope there are some analysis being done higher up as to the rish factors ad what can be done to prevent more accidents. Who is responsible for investigating this? Is it the FAA? NTSB? DOT? DOH? Trade orginizations? Manufacturers? ATC?



There has been plenty of analysis and the needed information has been disseminated. Unfortunately, there is the age old saying..................YOU CAN'T CURE STUPIDITY. There was a complete lack of situational awareness on the part of the ambulance driver. His fault, plain and simple, no further investigation required..........................

The FAA and the NTSB are responsible for this incident..............

http://www.faa.gov/data_statistics/accident_incident/preliminary_data/media/K_0912_N.txt

*********************************************************************
   Report created 9/16/2008   Record 3                                
*********************************************************************

IDENTIFICATION
  Regis#: INJ        Make/Model: SK76      Description: SIKORSKY S-76B 
  Date: 09/12/2008     Time: 0100

  Event Type: Incident   Highest Injury: None     Mid Air: N    Missing: N
  Damage: Minor

LOCATION
  City: WEST TRENTON   State: NJ   Country: US

DESCRIPTION
  N1NJ, A SIKORSKY S-76B ROTORCRAFT, WHILE ON A MEDIVAC MISSION, LANDED ON 
  HIGHWAY 55 AND HAD ENGINES SHUT DOWN, WAS STRUCK BY AN AMBULANCE, NO 
  INJURIES REPORTED, DAMAGE TO HELICOPTER WAS MINOR, ELK TOWNSHIP, NJ

INJURY DATA      Total Fatal:   0
                 # Crew:   0     Fat:   0     Ser:   0     Min:   0     Unk:    
                 # Pass:   0     Fat:   0     Ser:   0     Min:   0     Unk:    
                 # Grnd:         Fat:   0     Ser:   0     Min:   0     Unk:    

WEATHER: NOT REPORTED

OTHER DATA
  Activity: Unknown      Phase: Standing      Operation: OTHER


  FAA FSDO: PHILADELPHIA, PA  (EA17)              Entry date: 09/12/2008


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## medicdan (Sep 16, 2008)

Thanks for digging that up, LP. I did not mean in any way to incinuate that the stupidity of the ambulance driver was linked to the recent accidents. Obviously this was as isolated stupidity.


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## Short Bus (Sep 17, 2008)

Sounds like there was a whole lot of stupid going on with this scene.


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## JJR512 (Sep 21, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> Okay, maybe it just me.. but *really how hard is it to see *a helicopter? Geez..We all make mistakes but where did these people get their EVO license through a correspondence courses?
> 
> C'mon everyone knows (or at least should know) LZ precautions!!. IF you don't; then you don't need to be on the scene!
> 
> R/r 911



Maryland offers an online EVOC course.


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## Kathi (Sep 23, 2008)

Sometimes it would help to keep eyes wide open. 
If people would do this, most accidents won`t happen.


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## mycrofft (Oct 12, 2008)

*About that shark chopper photo...*

That's a chopper from my final Guard unit, 129th Rescue Wing out of Moffett Field. Most of it is fabricated; the shark (of course), and the position versus the Golden Gate Bridge. They used to (still?) go into the Bay to play and the ladder ingress is actual, but fish and bridge are edited IN.

I was trying to get info for an article to teach laypersons (CERT's primarily, but could apply to non-aircraft involved firefighters or anyone who might be the "feet on ground" when a helo joins the scene) about ops and safety around helos and the response generally was "They don't need to know", period. 

As for that news article, writers and then their editors screw aviation stuff up all the time.


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## BLSBoy (Oct 12, 2008)

Since I am in the area of this boondoggle, I have made a few inquiries to said incident. 

It was an allegedly volunteer outfit that drove the ambulance into the aircraft. They have a history of monkey and football incidents, per what I have heard. 

The aircraft remained on Rt. 55 until a mechanic from the NJSP arrived on scene, inspected the aircraft, and deemed it safe to fly. 



My opinion on why this happened, uncontrolled adrenaline. People hear the tones, see the pt is critical, and they can not control the adrenaline rush that comes, if affects their judgement, and stuff like that happens. 

To head off the preemptive attacks, it happens to paid and volunteer alike.


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## Zippo1969 (Oct 12, 2008)

jrm818 said:


> Maybe one of you flight types can confirm this - I was under the impression that any strike of one of the rotors required a full engine/transmission teardown and rebuild - not just replacement of "a couple of blades."  I'd presume the news got that minor detail wrong, as I can't imagine a service skirting by under the FAA's nose like that unnoticed.



After reading the article is was pretty unclear as to what actually happened to the crew / aircraft after the incident...No overhaul or engine tear-down is automatically indicated, and the ship's mechanic would have had to come to the scene to approve the heli for a short maintenence flight.  It only takes the NTSB about 40 years to investigate these incidents, so any new news on the story by the local press will have to suffice.  We'll have to ASSUME there was little, if any, visible damage to the blades.  Pilots don't have a death wish, and policy on maint. flights is very strict and specific...

Also keep in mind that when at idle RPM, the tail rotor is pretty much invisible (A-stars, among others I'm sure, now have new lights to illuminate the tail rotor).

Alas, don't worry too much about this - if the economy keeps tanking we'll be seeing less and less of the whirly-birds around anyhow


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## Zippo1969 (Oct 12, 2008)

BLSBoy said:


> Since I am in the area of this boondoggle, I have made a few inquiries to said incident.
> 
> It was an allegedly volunteer outfit that drove the ambulance into the aircraft. They have a history of monkey and football incidents, per what I have heard.
> 
> ...



for some reason your post didn't show until after i replied...thanks for the update btw - do you know if they had to replace the blades?  $$$ouch$$$


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## BLSBoy (Oct 12, 2008)

Didn't hear, but there was intrusion to the pt compartment on the bus. 

I would imagine they might have been.


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