# Oklahoma Trooper Suspended Over Scuffle With Paramedic



## wyoskibum (Jul 23, 2009)

"An Oklahoma trooper accused of using excessive force while stopping and arresting a paramedic will receive a five-day suspension without pay for his actions, the Oklahoma Highway Patrol announced Wednesday. SOURCE: Fox News

Seems like a slap on the wrist to me.


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## 8jimi8 (Jul 23, 2009)

maybe they would let us all line up and choke him for 5 days?


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## Melclin (Jul 23, 2009)

Should have lost his job. Should never have had it in the first place. 

They should seriously evaluate the kind of people they take into their service.


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## ffemt8978 (Jul 23, 2009)

Given how the last 6 threads on this topic went, I figured I'd get this in early.

Keep this thread on topic, and refrain from bashing on LEO's or any other emergency service provider and this thread can remain open.

Otherwise, it will be closed and merged into the original thread.


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## 8jimi8 (Jul 23, 2009)

http://newsok.com/trooper-gets-5-day-suspension/article/3387383?custom_click=lead_story_photo

not sure if this article in particular has been linked, in the other thread, but this one actually has the trooper's dashcam.

turns out the ambulance did let the guy pass pretty quickly.  The trooper was just enraged because he thought he was given a "gesture."

If he didn't get one then, i'll give him one now. :GIANT MIDDLE FINGER BUDDY:


***admin feel free to censor my outraged antics.  I was typing up my post while your's went up.


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## Shishkabob (Jul 23, 2009)

This thread will end like it always does-- locked with 4 of us receiving infractions.


Even still--



Is the officer at the wrong?  Yup, but so is the paramedic and there can be no denial to that.  None.


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## Summit (Jul 23, 2009)

Linuss said:


> Is the officer at the wrong?  Yup, but so is the paramedic and there can be no denial to that.  None.



As was shown before, the paramedics mistakes were stupid but not illegal. They did NOT justify the officers illegal actions. The officer's overreaction shows he is not cut out to be an officer and his assault and battery should land him with criminal charges.


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## Shishkabob (Jul 23, 2009)

Let me get this right.



Telling a cop that you are NOT under arrest, when they say you are, isn't illegal?


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## Summit (Jul 23, 2009)

Linuss said:


> Telling a cop that you are NOT under arrest, when they say you are, isn't illegal?



The arrest was illegal.


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## Shishkabob (Jul 23, 2009)

Says what?  You're vast LE and Constitutional law knowledge?


In the very news article the OP posted


> An internal investigation concluded that Trooper Daniel Martin *was justified in stopping and arresting* paramedic Maurice White during a traffic stop






Even IF you debate the legality of the stop, the streets are not the place to fight the arrest.  Save it for the courts.


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## Summit (Jul 23, 2009)

Linuss said:


> Says what?  You're vast LE and Constitutional law knowledge?
> 
> 
> In the very news article the OP posted



And who says it was a good arrest? Your vast LE and Constitutional law knowledge. It was a bad arrest. The DA did not want to prosecute. The LEO was put on desk duty immediatly and was suspended. OHP does not have a good record of policing itself.



> Even IF you debate the legality of the stop, the streets are not the place to fight the arrest.  Save it for the courts.


Oh... so... you are saying the cop should have waited to pull over an ambulance with a patient over thinking he was flipped off instead of hashing it out on the side of a highway? B)


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## Shishkabob (Jul 23, 2009)

Summit said:


> And who says it was a good arrest? Your vast LE and Constitutional law knowledge. It was a bad arrest. The DA did not want to prosecute. The LEO was put on desk duty immediatly and was suspended. OHP does not have a good record of policing itself.



Actually, yes.  I'm a CJ major.  I have no where near the experience as some people such as AJ, but I'd like to think I know more then the average joe schmoe.

The DA chose not to prosecute because it would be of no benefit to to the public.   DA's words, not mine.



The policies and procedures, and what is deemed in line with such, is up to the individual police agency.  OHP said he was in the right, he was in the right.  There is no further debate to that as far as they are concerned.

If it were deemed the slightest bit illegal, the cop would be fired and de-certified.  PD's don't take a chance with officers that do things illegally.  




> Oh... so... you are saying the cop should have waited to pull over an ambulance with a patient over thinking he was flipped off instead of hashing it out on the side of a highway? B)



Nope, never said that.  How was the officer to know that a patient was in the rig BEFORE pulling it over?


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## Summit (Jul 23, 2009)

Linuss said:


> Nope, never said that.  How was the officer to know that a patient was in the rig BEFORE pulling it over?



Notice how the officer never asked if there was a patient AFTER pulling it over?


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## Shishkabob (Jul 23, 2009)

He didn't have to.  The paramedic was more then willing to jump out of the rig and tell him multiple times, along with how to do his job as a police officer and refuse direct legal orders from a peace officer.


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## HotelCo (Jul 23, 2009)

I'm going to guess 5 hours.

5 hours until this thread is locked.

This will turn into a cop bashing/cop flag-waving thread.


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## Shishkabob (Jul 23, 2009)

You're too generous.

I say much less.  It just depends on when certain members decide to show up and cop bash.


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## HotelCo (Jul 23, 2009)

Don't forget the flag-waving members.


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## Summit (Jul 23, 2009)

Linuss said:


> He didn't have to.  The paramedic was more then willing to jump out of the rig and tell him multiple times, along with how to do his job as a police officer and refuse direct legal orders from a peace officer.



Ought to be the first thing he asked. Instead he started berating the driver and swearing at him for a while until the Paramedic came out to ask him. 

But I guess you are right. That Medic clearly deserved to be choked for not respecting the officer's abuse of authority.

And get off your "everyone who disagrees with me is a cop basher" horse. This is an EMS forum. We all work with cops and most of us have friends who are cops (I do). Most cops are good cops. There ARE bad cops who should not be cops. This OHP officer should not be a cop.

There are people who defend bad cops to the end, always seeking some justification or rationalization for how the officer was somehow not in the wrong. Watching you in the last thread, I'm afraid I count you in this category.


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## Shishkabob (Jul 23, 2009)

I've actually never seen flag-wavers... just people look at it with a more open mind.


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## Summit (Jul 23, 2009)

Linuss said:


> I've actually never seen flag-wavers... just people look at it with a more open mind.



I rest my case.


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## HotelCo (Jul 23, 2009)

Linuss said:


> I've actually never seen flag-wavers... just people look at it with a more open mind.



You haven't looked hard enough then.^_^


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## Shishkabob (Jul 23, 2009)

Summit said:


> But I guess you are right. That Medic clearly deserved to be choked for not respecting the officer's abuse of authority.



Officer said medic was under arrest, medic said "no" and tried to leave, officer tried to stop, medic put hand on officer, officer controlled medic.  It truly IS that simple of a scenerio.

Having said that, do I agree with what the officer did?  Nope.  But I also do not fault *to the degree* that some other people do, because in a situation where you're in a physical confrontation with someone, you react by impulse, and not by plan.




> There are people who defend bad cops to the end, always seeking some justification or rationalization for how the officer was somehow not in the wrong. Watching you in the last thread, I'm afraid I count you in this category.



You'd ALMOST be correct.  Fact is, I tend to take a much more objective viewpoint on matters such as this, instead of jumping directly in to "OMG THE PIG SHOULD BE FIRED".  If an officer did something TOTALLY unprovoked, I'd the first to say so, but I also realize that they are still human (usually) and as such, minor mistakes happen and their families shouldn't suffer because of such.


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## Summit (Jul 23, 2009)

Linuss said:


> in a situation where you're in a physical confrontation with someone, you react by impulse, and not by plan.


NO. LEO's are trained to be very careful about when they start a physical confrontation and then they are supposed to react with training, not impulse. I don't think a front choke is in their training. A lot of departments would fire for use of that maneuver.



> You'd ALMOST be correct.  Fact is, I tend to take a much more objective viewpoint on matters such as this, instead of jumping directly in to "OMG THE PIG SHOULD BE FIRED".  If an officer did something TOTALLY unprovoked, I'd the first to say so, but I also realize that they are still human (usually) and as such, minor mistakes happen and their families shouldn't suffer because of such.



For a law and order type, you sure seem to grant special dispensation to some. It's human for the cop, who is supposed to be cool under pressure, to lose his temper when he is trained not to, and over a falsely perceived minor insult and then he abused his authority to assuage his ego... someone suffered because of it, but why punish the cop and his family? Certainly someone of that personality won't repeat it.

Then you hypocritically fault the paramedic for having a human reaction instead of obeying  the abuse of authority.

Let's put it another way. If the paramedic was insulted by a patient and accidentally grabbed the wrong med vial because he couldn't control his emotion and hurt the patient with bad treatment, you wouldn't be arguing that "to err is human let's not hurt him or his family just because he hurt a patient.


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## JonTullos (Jul 23, 2009)

I took have to put the blame pretty much on all parties involved.  The trooper was wrong for the way he acted toward the driver, the medic and the driver were wrong for their unprofessional attitudes in front of the patient... the only innocent one in all of this is the patient.  I think the choking incident was wrong... I think, though, that if they had handled this situations _like adults_ then it wouldn't have happened in the first place.

And if the trooper did think he had gotten the finger from the driver did he simply pull them over for that reason?  Come on.


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## Summit (Jul 23, 2009)

JonTullos said:


> I took have to put the blame pretty much on all parties involved.  The trooper was wrong for the way he acted toward the driver, the medic and the driver were wrong for their unprofessional attitudes in front of the patient... the only innocent one in all of this is the patient.  I think the choking incident was wrong... I think, though, that if they had handled this situations _like adults_ then it wouldn't have happened in the first place.
> 
> And if the trooper did think he had gotten the finger from the driver did he simply pull them over for that reason?  Come on.



Sure. But then ask: Whose conduct was unprofessional enough that it should result in their evacuation from their profession?


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## Shishkabob (Jul 23, 2009)

Summit said:


> NO. LEO's are trained to be very careful about when they start a physical confrontation and then they are supposed to react with training, not impulse. I don't think a front choke is in their training. A lot of departments would fire for use of that maneuver.



Yes, training is to help them in those situation, but to think that people don't react on impulse in a situation that is fluid such as a fight is foolish.

You and I can be trained forever on EMS related things, but throw a screwball at us that we never see, and it will tilt us off a bit.  True?





> For a law and order type, you sure seem to grant special dispensation to some. It's human for the cop, who is supposed to be cool under pressure, to lose his temper over a falsly perceived insult and abuse his authority... someone suffered because of it, but why punish the cop and his family? Certainly someone of that personality won't repeat it.
> 
> Let's put it another way. If the paramedic was insulted by a patient and accidentally grabbed the wrong med vial because he couldn't control his emotion and hurt the patient with bad treatment, you wouldn't be arguing that "to err is human let's not hurt him or his family just because he hurt a patient.



You're making this debate FAR too personal and I ask you to stop.

How do you know it was a "falsely perceived insult"?  Were you there witnessing what the EMT did while driving?  It truly is the word of the officer against the word of the EMT.

What abuse of authority?  It has been stated, not only by the DA, but by the OHP, that the officer was in the right for the stop and the arrest.  Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it abuse of authority.  




> Then you hypocritically expect the paramedic to react perfectly and obey the abuse of authority instead of having a "human reaction."



Also, I never said how I expected the paramedic to act.  I stated several times that ANYONE who thinks the paramedic acted correctly, in his resisting of arrest and refusal to follow a lawful command, is wrong.


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## firecoins (Jul 23, 2009)

This wasn't about the law but about egos. The cop thought he got the finger and he wanted to take his anger oput on the person who supposedly gave him it.  Its that simple.


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## VentMedic (Jul 23, 2009)

This is just about two pathetic humans who each had serious personality flaws that happened to cross paths.

Now one will get rich from a self-serving lawsuit and the other could lose his career.

It is very unfortunate this had to play out in the public eye because it is not a fine representation of either law enforcement or EMS. The many discussions on the EMS boards have definitely not been a good representation of EMS and does more to present EMS as a bunch of characters who have no problems within our own profession and some who know so little about their own profession but yet are now experts on Law Enforcement. That makes many of us commenting on this forum just as professional as the two jokers this whole mess is about.

I will not donate to any legal fund for this EMT-P. I will not watch the court proceedings. I will not buy the book nor do I plan to watch the movie when it eventually comes out. One very bad TV interview was enough. At least the LEO was man enough to apologize and did not feel the need to make himself a TV star and publically call for the EMTP's badge. The EMT-P doesn't have any more temperment for EMS as he stated the LEO doesn't for his profession.

Neither deserves such public attention for such bad behavior on all parts.


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## Chimpie (Jul 23, 2009)

Linuss said:


> This thread will end like it always does-- locked with 4 of us receiving infractions.



tsk tsk, don't tempt us.



HotelCo said:


> I'm going to guess 5 hours.
> 
> 5 hours until this thread is locked.
> 
> This will turn into a cop bashing/cop flag-waving thread.




Eh, you were close.  It took about 8.5 hours.

This has been debated before, and has been debated enough.

Thread closed.


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