# shake and bake courses



## sleepless near seattle (Dec 30, 2009)

I found this forum while researching "accelerated" PM programs.  A LOT of negativity and, despite the rules of this forum, rudeness.  I am an 8 year career firefighter, been an EMT/IV for my entire career.  My station is an ALS transporting agency with 22 line and 2 admin.  There is no private in the county or anyone else to turf a call to.  You call, we haul.  Because of our situation, most calls "become" ALS.  Have wanted to be a fire medic since my days as a voly beginning in '95.  Graduated with BS in Sportsmed in '95.  No problems with A&P, no problems with pharm, no problems with patient contact (approx 2700 calls/year among 22 guys).  My problem is not being able to take a year off with out losing my job, admin is unable to send me to school but encourages it (can't afford to give time or money).  Also family is number one priority.  I know the job, they know the job.  A lot of the negativity surrounding the other thread I read was based on time.  I think it's important to state that even the "3 month" courses are only didactic, clinicals and rides are entirely seperate and have be set up with and approved by local MPD.  I completely understand the lack of support for these types of programs, and/or programs that allow you to ride at your own station because of their lack of depth, but as ridryder kept posting, you get out what you put in.  I have to believe that there are exceptions and that these programs could gain some legitimacy or respect based on stringent acceptance requirements.  Any info or support anyone could share would be greatly appreciated.  I'm looking to enter late this spring or summer.


----------



## ceej (Dec 30, 2009)

Which program are you looking at attending?

If you are looking at the one in Indiana, please PM me and I can give you some information.


----------



## rescue99 (Dec 30, 2009)

sleepless near seattle said:


> I found this forum while researching "accelerated" PM programs.  A LOT of negativity and, despite the rules of this forum, rudeness.  I am an 8 year career firefighter, been an EMT/IV for my entire career.  My station is an ALS transporting agency with 22 line and 2 admin.  There is no private in the county or anyone else to turf a call to.  You call, we haul.  Because of our situation, most calls "become" ALS.  Have wanted to be a fire medic since my days as a voly beginning in '95.  Graduated with BS in Sportsmed in '95.  No problems with A&P, no problems with pharm, no problems with patient contact (approx 2700 calls/year among 22 guys).  My problem is not being able to take a year off with out losing my job, admin is unable to send me to school but encourages it (can't afford to give time or money).  Also family is number one priority.  I know the job, they know the job.  A lot of the negativity surrounding the other thread I read was based on time.  I think it's important to state that even the "3 month" courses are only didactic, clinicals and rides are entirely seperate and have be set up with and approved by local MPD.  I completely understand the lack of support for these types of programs, and/or programs that allow you to ride at your own station because of their lack of depth, but as ridryder kept posting, you get out what you put in.  I have to believe that there are exceptions and that these programs could gain some legitimacy or respect based on stringent acceptance requirements.  Any info or support anyone could share would be greatly appreciated.  I'm looking to enter late this spring or summer.



Shake n Bake programs need to be banned, period. Their pass rates at registry are often very poor and the quality of medical care provider is often just as poor. While fast paced schools have the capability to do great things, too frequently they simply haven't the ethics nor desire to do a decent job. They're mills for a reason and that reason isn't patient care. 

Most EMT/Medic mills are intended to turn out workers for the transient occupation. They are more often than not, run by ambulance services whose interest is in providing a constant source for these low paying jobs. Even the accredited colleges / proprietary schools often have problems with ethics at times, which then leads to poor classroom productivity. To make matters worse, state monitoring agencies aren't doing their job in making sure our schools do their's. It really is a vicious circle. 

Just find as good quality program as you can and do your personal best. Good luck.


----------



## NomadicMedic (Dec 30, 2009)

There are several full time fire fighters that are still working and are in my program at Tacoma CC. 

If you're looking at paramedic education, don't sell yourself short just to save some time. At least make sure your school is Accredited by CoAEMSP.


----------



## rescue99 (Dec 30, 2009)

n7lxi said:


> There are several full time fire fighters that are still working and are in my program at Tacoma CC.
> 
> If you're looking at paramedic education, don't sell yourself short just to save some time. At least make sure your school is Accredited by CoAEMSP.



Trust me when I say...it really hasn't made a difference whether the school is accredited or not. WHO, is running the show, WHO is teaching and most of all....WHO is watching the store. For a decade, I've seen dean's, a college president, program managers, a state monitoring agency, I/C's, CEO's, even a SAG, not give not give a flying poo what happened to students as long as the tuition / fees were paid and the wheel kept turning. Ethics and quality....in that order. These things really do matter. They make or break any program.


----------



## 46Young (Dec 30, 2009)

Over here the NOVA Annandale Campus holds classes in their curriculum twice weekly, so that members on shift work can attend on days off. Nice accomidation for the FF's here. A certain class may be held in a repeating fashion on Mon/Tues, or Wed/Thurs. Distance learning (online courses) can also be your friend, asynchronous if possible. Are any of these options available within a reasonable distance from you?

The problems you mention regarding the inability to take off of work to accomodate a FT schedule are common for the medical field. Go FT or get lost, we don't need you. This screws the working professional. Many knock accelerated programs, but when no other options are available, what are you supposed to do? 

Good luck in any case. 

Of course, you could take a leave of absense to complete the medic program, and then get on as a firemedic at a large dept, (laughably easy to do, believe me) paying you well, probably way more than you're getting currently. If your present dept won't work with you, do the medic program anyway, then laugh at admin there while you're making a comfortable wage for a much larger dept with much greater opportunities for career advancement.


----------



## sleepless near seattle (Dec 31, 2009)

Thank you all for the input.  Rescue 99, I really do appreciate what you are saying, and do believe, in general, that shortened programs equals lesser quality.  I took the time to explain my experience and university background because of that.  I realize that someone straight out of high school with no college/work experience could be accepted into these programs and I do agree that is not good.  After doing some more research, I've confirmed what I said earlier, the "accellerated" programs simply complete the didactic portion first, then send you to your home area to complete rides and clinicals.  Total time isn't actually a lot different than most tech school programs like TCC's (Tacoma Comm Coll)that n71xi is attending.  We have a lot of their students do ride alongs with us.  The school has a great rep with an excellent lead inst. (nationally rec. Mike Smith, check out many articles in JEMS), and most, though not all, students we've had from them have been great.  Any program is the essentially the same in that you get out what you put in.  
       The format I'm looking at with the didactic up front, is simply the best way for my family and my employer.  I'm looking closer at McCook Comm. College in Nebraska(another EMT-IV from my county is attending there starting this month).  It is part of Mid Plains Comm Coll and seems to have a very user friendly format.  I'll admit, I don't like the thought of a completely green medic from a program like this working on my family, but the flip side is I do believe it to be a good fit for me and others like me with a solid University background and ample field experience.  
      ceej- thanks for the heads up, I'll take a look, but honestly I'll probably commit to the Nebraska program.  We've got our MPD's blessing and support for clinicals and rides and it will definitely be helpful to have a local resource from the same program when I go through.
      If anyone out there KNOWS (please, no second/third hand rumors) anything about McCook's program, I'm still open for feedback.


----------



## VentMedic (Dec 31, 2009)

You make a statement like this 



rescue99 said:


> Shake n Bake programs need to be banned, period.


 
And then you also state this:



rescue99 said:


> Trust me when I say...it really hasn't made a difference whether the school is accredited or not. WHO, is running the show, WHO is teaching and most of all....WHO is watching the store. For a decade, I've seen dean's, a college president, program managers, a state monitoring agency, I/C's, CEO's, even a SAG, not give not give a flying poo what happened to students as long as the tuition / fees were paid and the wheel kept turning. Ethics and quality....in that order. These things really do matter. They make or break any program.


 
What data are you basing your statements on to bash CoAEMSP accreditation?

Do you know the requirements of the accreditation?

What do you think some schools would be like if they were not held to some basic minimal requirements?  Most likely like the shake and bakes you stated should be banned.


----------



## VentMedic (Dec 31, 2009)

46Young said:


> The problems you mention regarding the inability to take off of work to accomodate a FT schedule are common for the medical field. Go FT or get lost, we don't need you. This screws the working professional. Many knock accelerated programs, but when no other options are available, what are you supposed to do?
> 
> Good luck in any case.
> 
> Of course, you could take a leave of absense to complete the medic program, and then get on as a firemedic at a large dept, (laughably easy to do, believe me) paying you well, probably way more than you're getting currently. If your present dept won't work with you, do the medic program anyway, then laugh at admin there while you're making a comfortable wage for a much larger dept with much greater opportunities for career advancement.


 
Of course you could just find a FD that only does EMS for the extra funding and has no regard for quality to where just any shake and bake course or medic mill will do. 

It is amazing at how many people have held full time jobs and finished a college degree. But there always seem to be a few that whine about a little effort. EMS continues to make it too easy to gain entry and unfortunately it is the patients that pay for it while the FFs collect a great paycheck with little regard for what quality care involves. Even more unfortunate is that the standards may be so low in some departments that they don't even realize how subpar their care is.


----------



## JPINFV (Dec 31, 2009)

Want to find: Accelerated part time medical school. Help. I can't keep a job while attending medical school full time. After all, it's so unfair that neither of my prevous EMS employers will continue to pay me while I'm attending school full time because those evil medical schools won't bend over backwards for me.


----------



## Achromatic (Dec 31, 2009)

sleepless near seattle said:


> I am an 8 year career firefighter, been an EMT/IV for my entire career.  My station is an ALS transporting agency with 22 line and 2 admin.



How are you maintaining your IV/EMT-I skills, being that WA is not a state that recognizes the -I, and doesn't allow BLS to do any more than prep IV lines?


----------



## 46Young (Dec 31, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Of course you could just find a FD that only does EMS for the extra funding and has no regard for quality to where just any shake and bake course or medic mill will do.
> 
> It is amazing at how many people have held full time jobs and finished a college degree. But there always seem to be a few that whine about a little effort. EMS continues to make it too easy to gain entry and unfortunately it is the patients that pay for it while the FFs collect a great paycheck with little regard for what quality care involves. Even more unfortunate is that the standards may be so low in some departments that they don't even realize how subpar their care is.



If you work set shifts structured around class, it's doable. If you work a rotating shift, it's prohibitively difficult to impossible to go to school FT. Monday's free this week, but not for the next three. How is that supposed to work? The OP does rotating shift work for a dept that's unwilling to be flexible with the work hours or admin leave/sickleave usage. What would you suggest in that particular situation? You can't be in two places at once.


----------



## JPINFV (Dec 31, 2009)

Leave of absence, go to a college, fill out FAFSA, and take out Stafford sub and Stafford unsub like every other student out there. Yes... even the my classmates who have children manage to take out loans.


----------



## 46Young (Dec 31, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> Want to find: Accelerated part time medical school. Help. I can't keep a job while attending medical school full time. After all, it's so unfair that neither of my prevous EMS employers will continue to pay me while I'm attending school full time because those evil medical schools won't bend over backwards for me.



Do you need a FT job to support yourself while you go through medical school? This person likely has a family, needs the money and medical benefits. Different situation than yours.


----------



## JPINFV (Dec 31, 2009)

If you're taking out student loans, you don't need a full time job to support you through paramedic school either. ...and yes, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I have class mates who have kids, including at least one single parent in my class. The options are there. They might not be easy, but not everything in life is.


----------



## triemal04 (Dec 31, 2009)

Achromatic said:


> How are you maintaining your IV/EMT-I skills, being that WA is not a state that recognizes the -I, and doesn't allow BLS to do any more than prep IV lines?


Uh...you are talking about Washington State, right?  Correct me if I'm wrong because I know there was a bit of discussion about consolidating all the various levels of EMT into 1 or 2, but I do believe it is still currently the same as it always was.  As in (on page 2):  http://www.doh.wa.gov/hsqa/emstrauma/download/emssop.pdf


VentMedic said:


> Of course you could just find a FD that only does EMS for the extra funding and has no regard for quality to where just any shake and bake course or medic mill will do.
> 
> It is amazing at how many people have held full time jobs and finished a college degree. But there always seem to be a few that whine about a little effort. EMS continues to make it too easy to gain entry and unfortunately it is the patients that pay for it while the FFs collect a great paycheck with little regard for what quality care involves. Even more unfortunate is that the standards may be so low in some departments that they don't even realize how subpar their care is.


True, but there are a lot of degrees out there (not all by any stretch and probably not even a majority but a lot nonetheless) that have night courses or alternate schedules specifically so that non-traditional students are still able to attend.  The medical field doesn't always do this as much though there are several programs out there that do in various fields.  Right or wrong, that's just how it is.


----------



## John E (Dec 31, 2009)

*Given that...*

in the next what, 2 years? if your school isn't accredited you won't even be able to sit for the NREMT exams, I'd be looking at an accredited program now.

College classes aren't tailored to fit each individual students schedule, either make it work or take a leave from your current job. Attending a sub-standard school because the schedule fits your work schedule is just wrong.

I can't believe it, I might have just agreed with something Ventmedic wrote...must be slipping.

JohnE


----------



## VentMedic (Dec 31, 2009)

triemal04 said:


> True, but there are a lot of degrees out there (not all by any stretch and probably not even a majority but a lot nonetheless) that have night courses or alternate schedules specifically so that non-traditional students are still able to attend. The medical field doesn't always do this as much though there are several programs out there that do in various fields. Right or wrong, that's just how it is.


 

And those who are serious about getting an education or advancing their career will seek out these programs rather than whining or using every excuse they can find as to why they can't take a college class or two towards a degree or just improving their knowlege base.


----------



## VentMedic (Dec 31, 2009)

John E said:


> in the next what, 2 years? if your school isn't accredited you won't even be able to sit for the NREMT exams, I'd be looking at an accredited program now.


 
Yes, 2012 is rapidly approaching as is 2014.


----------



## triemal04 (Dec 31, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> And those who are serious about getting an education or advancing their career will seek out these programs rather than whining or using every excuse they can find as to why they can't take a college class or two towards a degree or just improving their knowlege base.


Sure, I actually don't disagree at all.  I do think though, that this is an area in which the medical field is lacking a bit.  It is possible to find paramedic and RN programs that are scheduled for non-traditional students and I'd bet there are more fields out there that do the same...but they are pretty few and far between.  Finding one can be a challenge and I can see why it could frustrate people who come into this field later in life.  Regardless, the standard still needs to remain the same whether or not the course in run in a traditional or non-traditional manner.


----------



## 46Young (Dec 31, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> And those who are serious about getting an education or advancing their career will seek out these programs rather than whining or using every excuse they can find as to why they can't take a college class or two towards a degree or just improving their knowlege base.



You still haven't answered my question - the OP has stated that they want to get their medic cert, but are unable to go to school FT, as they need the FT job to support themselves, with an employer that has a rotating schedule and is inflexible. Quitting isn't an option. So, what are your suggestions as to how this person is supposed to get their degree in EMS?


----------



## triemal04 (Dec 31, 2009)

46Young said:


> You still haven't answered my question - the OP has stated that they want to get their medic cert, but are unable to go to school FT, as they need the FT job to support themselves, with an employer that has a rotating schedule and is inflexible. Quitting isn't an option. So, what are your suggestions as to how this person is supposed to get their degree in EMS?


Wait...you actually expected an answer?  Heh...that's funny.  

If his department allows them (and I'd be shocked if they don't), trades with people from other shifts.  We've had many people here complete the paramedic course (including the classes besides the actual paramedic class) and other degrees while working here by using trades for the days they were in class.  As long as the department supports people doing it, it shouldn't be an issue.


----------



## VentMedic (Dec 31, 2009)

46Young said:


> You still haven't answered my question - the OP has stated that they want to get their medic cert, but are unable to go to school FT, as they need the FT job to support themselves, with an employer that has a rotating schedule and is inflexible. Quitting isn't an option. So, what are your suggestions as to how this person is supposed to get their degree in EMS?


 
Many of us here had to make choices and adjustments in our lives to get what we wanted. I had a FT and a PT job when I was going to Paramedic school. I also worked FT at the FD and had a family while I was finishing my other degrees.  I was not unique either. There many people doing the same things I was and making sacrifices to get what they wanted.  There are those who get things done and there are those who whine while opportunites pass them by.  If you really want something bad enough you will find a way.


----------



## VentMedic (Dec 31, 2009)

triemal04 said:


> Wait...you actually expected an answer? Heh...that's funny.
> .


 
He has gotten his answer many times on different forums as well as this one from myself and many others.

Do I have to explain how to get an education to you also again?


----------



## 46Young (Dec 31, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Many of us here had to make choices and adjustments in our lives to get what we wanted. I had a FT and a PT job when I was going to Paramedic school. I also worked FT at the FD and had a family while I was finishing my other degrees.  I was not unique either. There many people doing the same things I was and making sacrifices to get what they wanted.  There are those who get things done and there are those who whine while opportunites pass them by.  If you really want something bad enough you will find a way.



You still haven't answered my question. The OP cannot quit their job. It isn't an option. "If you really want something bad enough you will find a way" isn't a plan, it's a nonsense token cliche. 

So, how do you suggest that this person complete a degree in EMS? Let us know your plan, otherwise we'll have to concede that a tech program is the only viable option in this situation.


----------



## triemal04 (Dec 31, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> He has gotten his answer many times on different forums as well as this one from myself and many others.
> 
> Do I have to explain how to get an education to you also again?


Sure...why not.  I don't frequent many forums, so I suppose you had better.

What I've got so far is that it takes hard work (I concur), sacrifice (yep), and time and effort (can't disagree).  What I haven't heard from you is how you work a full-time job around a full-time class schedule.  I do believe that's what 46young has asked to be answered, and so far...no responce on that from you.


----------



## 46Young (Dec 31, 2009)

triemal04 said:


> Wait...you actually expected an answer?  Heh...that's funny.
> 
> If his department allows them (and I'd be shocked if they don't), trades with people from other shifts.  We've had many people here complete the paramedic course (including the classes besides the actual paramedic class) and other degrees while working here by using trades for the days they were in class.  As long as the department supports people doing it, it shouldn't be an issue.



The OP works for a small dept. There probably aren't as many opportunities for shift trades, admin day work and the like. Admin may also feel threatened by more educated employees and seek to thwart their educational aspirations.


----------



## triemal04 (Dec 31, 2009)

46Young said:


> The OP works for a small dept. There probably aren't as many opportunities for shift trades, admin day work and the like. Admin may also feel threatened by more educated employees and seek to thwart their educational aspirations.


That's possible, but that would be something he'd have to determine.  My guess, and it's only a guess, is that since they are a transporting ALS department the admin wouldn't have to much a problem with him completing the paramedic course since it would benefit the department.  But who knows...it would cost them more since his pay would (probably, I don't really know) go up so maybe they wouldn't like it.  Regardless, it's something for him to look into.  Even in smaller departments it can be easy to trade/shift swap for that type of thing; you will really only need a few hours 1 or 2 days a week, so as long as you can find 1 person willing to help out (damn near always possible) it's doable.

Edit:  just reread the first post, and his admin encourages it so...worth looking into.


----------



## VentMedic (Dec 31, 2009)

46Young said:


> The OP works for a small dept. There probably aren't as many opportunities for shift trades, admin day work and the like. Admin may also feel threatened by more educated employees and seek to thwart their educational aspirations.


 

Then he'll have to choose whether he wants to continue working for a department that feels threatened by education or move on to more opportunities.   

You really make this education thing seem like it is the absolutely most difficult thing on earth to do.

Life is about choices.  You have chosen not to advance your education and would rather depend on the union to make all your decisions.  Others still have opportunities available to them and are free to make their own choices.   If that means relocating and/or changing employers to get to your goal, then that may have to be the choice to be made.


----------



## VentMedic (Dec 31, 2009)

triemal04 said:


> Sure...why not. I don't frequent many forums, so I suppose you had better.
> 
> What I've got so far is that it takes hard work (I concur), sacrifice (yep), and time and effort (can't disagree). What I haven't heard from you is how you work a full-time job around a full-time class schedule. I do believe that's what 46young has asked to be answered, and so far...no responce on that from you.


 
I worked for the FD during most of my college education. A couple of shift trades a month and there was plenty of time. When I went to 12 hours on Flight it was even easier to hold down FT job (3 - 12/wk) and take a full class load while still having time left over for the family.

Again, my life has already been discussed by 46young and you many times. What part of going to college and working do you not understand?

How many times to I and many other forum members have to explain this to you and 46young?

You can also ask JP who has taken an even more impressive course load.


----------



## 46Young (Dec 31, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Then he'll have to choose whether he wants to continue working for a department that feels threatened by education or move on to more opportunities.
> 
> You really make this education thing seem like it is the absolutely most difficult thing on earth to do.
> 
> Life is about choices.  You have chosen not to advance your education and would rather depend on the union to make all your decisions.  Others still have opportunities available to them and are free to make their own choices.   If that means relocating and/or changing employers to get to your goal, then that may have to be the choice to be made.



Or you can go to a tech school and still keep your job. The OP said that they can't quit. What part of that isn't clear?

So, by avoiding my question, I'll have to assume that there's no possible way for the OP to stay employed and complete a degree. Thank you. 3 12's would be doable, but not in this situation, with a rotating schedule.


----------



## VentMedic (Dec 31, 2009)

triemal04 said:


> Well there you go. And in fact that's exactly what I suggested above...weird huh? :lol:
> 
> Now that there has been an actual answer instead of cliches and rhetoric the problem would seem to have been resolved.


 
And if you had ever read any of my other posts about getting an education, I wouldn't have to keep repeating this. Rid has also given the same answer for when he was getting his degree and so has AJ.   We have all shared our education experiences on the forums.


----------



## VentMedic (Dec 31, 2009)

46Young said:


> Or you can go to a tech school and still keep your job. The OP said that they can't quit. What part of that isn't clear?
> 
> So, by avoiding my question, I'll have to assume that there's no possible way for the OP to stay employed and complete a degree. Thank you. 3 12's would be doable, but not in this situation, with a rotating schedule.


 
Where have I avoided your questions either here or on EMTcity? 

The FD (24/48) was more than supportive of education. You are the one who seems to think they will never allow you to go to school.

A tech school is worthless to those who want to attend a university and maybe even teach someday. Why waste time? It may be okay for those who just want a job and have no ambition for a career.


----------



## 46Young (Dec 31, 2009)

If the OP was able to have non rotating set days, time for school would be a non issue. If shift swaps and/or admin leave was adequate, time for school would be a non issue. Neither of these scenarios apply to the OP.


----------



## 46Young (Dec 31, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Where have I avoided your questions either here or on EMTcity?
> 
> The FD (24/48) was more than supportive of education. You are the one who seems to think they will never allow you to go to school.
> 
> A tech school is worthless to those who want to attend a university and maybe even teach someday. Why waste time? It may be okay for those who just want a job and have no ambition for a career.



I don't have that problem. There's day work options, and a large dept of 1400 or so personnel with which to do trades with. It helps that my dept is pro education. Not everyone enjoys the same situation.

The OP wants their medic cert to be a firemedic. A tech cert will make that a reality. I'm asking how this person, in this particular situation, is supposed to do it the "right way" by getting a degree instead. I'm asking for a real workable solution, not things like quitting your job and such.


----------



## VentMedic (Dec 31, 2009)

triemal04 said:


> Sweety...why are you arguing with me? I already know how it can be done. In fact, we suggested the same thing. So...why are you arguing with me again? And to be honest, I don't ever remembering you suggest any way to actually go about completing a degree while working full-time, especially with a standard 24/48 schedule (or variant of it). I could be wrong, but who knows. Don't remember anyone else doing it either recently, or even quite some time ago. Look...when someone asks a question, it's usually nice to give them an actual answer and not cliches/rhetoric. It might...I don't know...actually help them with their problem.
> 
> But, you did that in the end, so no harm no foul.


 
You do not know of any FF that has an education?

You have never read anything from either myself or Rid about working FT while going to college?


----------



## VentMedic (Dec 31, 2009)

46Young said:


> The OP wants their medic cert to be a firemedic. A tech cert will make that a reality


 
Of course a tech cert is good enough for the FD....

Why do you think they are in the spotlight so much and being criticized? Every FF should have a Paramedic cert from a tech mill.


----------



## triemal04 (Dec 31, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> You do not know of any FF that has an education?
> 
> You have never read anything from either myself or Rid about working FT while going to college?


Do you even know what you are argueing anymore?  
"Don't remember anyone else doing it either recently, or even quite some time ago."  Just to be clear (god I hope that was what you misunderstood) I meant explaining how to work a full-time rotating schedule and go to school full time.  

And no, I really don't remembe reading anything from you or Rid or anyone else about how to do the above before today.  As I said, I could be wrong, but I really don't remember any real answers, just cliches and rhetoric like you put forth here before finally giving a real answer.

This thread isn't going to end well.  Hopefully the OP got a couple idea's of what to do.


----------



## VentMedic (Dec 31, 2009)

triemal04 said:


> Do you even know what you are argueing anymore?
> "Don't remember anyone else doing it either recently, or even quite some time ago." Just to be clear (god I hope that was what you misunderstood) I meant explaining how to work a full-time rotating schedule and go to school full time.
> 
> And no, I really don't remembe reading anything from you or Rid or anyone else about how to do the above before today. As I said, I could be wrong, but I really don't remember any real answers, just cliches and rhetoric like you put forth here before finally giving a real answer.
> ...


 
Was that a reply to your post? NO!

It was a reply to 46young's.

Try to keep up.

Why don't you go back and read all 10,000 posts which Rid and I have done?


----------



## triemal04 (Dec 31, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Was that a reply to your post? NO!
> 
> It was a reply to 46young's.
> 
> ...


But...then why would you quote ME if you were repying to someone ELSE?


----------



## reaper (Dec 31, 2009)

Most FF's that have been on the job for a month know about shift swapping. If the OP's dept will not allow it or give him time for school, Then quit!!!!!!! Find a job that will work for furthering your education. If this means working as a waiter, then that is what you do. Sometimes it takes sacrifice to get ahead in life.

If all he wants is to be a Firemedic, then go the tech route and be happy. If he wants to have an education and strive for excellence, then he will find a way to get his degree. Most of us did it, without problems. No reason he can't.


----------



## Ridryder911 (Jan 1, 2010)

Short and simple answer. You want to be a Paramedic then do so. Just alike millions of others that have to make choices and decisions and determine what their priorities should be, (why would EMS assume to be different?). 

Please, don't say lies of "it can't be done; or "I can't" then either your not able to at this time or you will not be able to attend. Period. 

Amazing, we never criticize those that take out loans for truck driving school or attending medical school and not working during that time but golly geez whiz, those in emergency services should be an elite and be exempt from the rest of the public. Why? Really; what makes us so special?

Again, just how important is delivering good quality patient care or is just a promotion for a raise? Looking for the easiest route answers that question. 

Paramedic schools are too damn easy already. Easy to get in and easy to get out. With the turnover ratio as high as it is .... amazingly we never have a serious shortage crisis.. so it can't be that hard.. (shorter than most beautician school) 

Annie up.. instead of looking for an easy route.... look for a quality that will produce competent providers. 


* alike many others.. I worked a 24 hr shift FT job and obtained multiple degrees and license.. so yes, one can .. IF they really want to..
R/r 911


----------



## medichopeful (Jan 1, 2010)

Ridryder911 said:


> Short and simple answer. You want to be a Paramedic then do so. Just alike millions of others that have to make choices and decisions and determine what their priorities should be, (why would EMS assume to be different?).
> 
> Please, don't say lies of "it can't be done; or "I can't" then either your not able to at this time or you will not be able to attend. Period.
> 
> ...



It's nice to see you posting again Rid.


----------



## sleepless near seattle (Jan 1, 2010)

Wow!

I'm sure you'll see this is my third post...ever.  It will likely be my last.  Vent, I believe you DO have time read ALL those threads.  For the record, I'll clear everyone up on my situation.  My department does support the IDEA of furthering my education.  I LIKE my local AND my Chief.  We are a damn good ALS agency that DOES have IV techs who DO start IV's. (NOT a BLS agency)  We have NO private in our county and are known for high quality patient care ALL of which is Fire based.  I never said fulltime school was impossible.  This program is what will work the best for me.  I DON'T think it would be good for someone with no college and no field experience.  I have a BS in sportsmed from the Medical School of the University of North Dakota, have been working ALS for 8 years, and voly'd for 5 years prior to that.  I WILL likely take out a student loan to pay the tuition AND keep my pay and benefits to support my family.  My wife will continue to work part time and take care of the kids full time while I'm away from my family for 3 straight months.  Then, as you know, they will continue to put up with my 24 hr shifts, and add on to that my clinicals and rides for another total of around 400 hrs.  Is this still sounding like the easy way out?  I'm not seeing it.  It will mean a 10% incentive pay that will have to be approved by the mayor (the Chief already supports it) making our dpt 15 medics instead of 14.  I have no interest in changing to "bigger" dept, I like it here.  We run close to 12 calls/day, have very aggressive protocols, have a lot of trust from our MPD and therefore a lot of autonomy in the field.  It is not a mother may I system and I will enjoy being an excellent medic in it.  I realize some Fire based EMS can lack quality, just like some private can, just like some public/hospital based can.  Please don't generalize FF's level of care or our intent to provide the best possible care for our patients.  With 2 or 3 degrees each, and well over 10,000 blogs between them on this forum alone (was vent really bragging about that?)  I can see that you've got a lot of hands on in the field caring for real patients.  At work, gotta go.


----------



## VentMedic (Jan 1, 2010)

sleepless near seattle said:


> I realize some Fire based EMS can lack quality, just like some private can, just like some public/hospital based can. Please don't generalize FF's level of care or our intent to provide the best possible care for our patients. With 2 or 3 degrees each, and well over 10,000 blogs between them on this forum alone (was vent really bragging about that?) I can see that you've got a lot of hands on in the field caring for real patients. At work, gotta go.


 
You must realize that many of use old timers here do have FD experience. You also might be surprised to know that a degree in EMS was encouraged in the 1970s which is why many of us at least have an Associates in Paramedicine from that time. The FDs were very selective about who rode the ambulance and it is that quality that should have been maintained, not every FF be a Paramedic as quickly as possible. 

As far as all the posts, many came from trying to answer many of the questions we get expecially by PM. Sometimes it is easier to answer them in a thread. 

Both Rid and I have been in EMS for a long time and have also added other degrees and credentials to enhance the care we give our patients to get them from point A to point B safely. Anyone can throw someone in the back of an ambulance and drive real fast with L&S to the nearest ED. We've been doing that for centuries by various modes of transportation. But, to improve one's chances for survival with a better outcome with few or no deficits has been something we strive for in modern EMS. Also, as hospitals specialize and optimize their resources, it becomes necessary to move patients from one facility to another safely. For the Paramedic to have a role in this, they must expand their knowledge which is very difficult to do without a solid foundation.

Medicine continues to advance and EMS should do the same. Other professions saw this long ago and raised their standards. Even Sports Medicine has come along way. Several states are also being petitioned to recognize the Exercise Physiologist with a Masters degree. The Athletic Trainer has been recognized for many years. 

If you already have a degree in Sports Med that has decent A&P and science courses, you may have no problem with an accelerated Paramedic program especially if you have done Sports Med clinics with thorough hands on assessment for patients of all ages. 

However, the skills mentality has to go to the wayside.


sleepless near seattle said:


> We are a damn good ALS agency that DOES have IV techs who DO start IV's. (NOT a BLS agency)


Just starting an IV does not make you ALS. Who cares if you can start an IV if you don't know why or can do little else once the IV is started? Washington is also known, but not in a good way, for its 7 or 8 different certs with some based on ONE skill and is often used as an example of the fragmentation that has taken place in EMS education and certifications. That is truly something not to be proud of. Imagine if all the other health care professions had a state or national level "cert" just for one skill and every skill they could do. 

Do you want people to think your Sport Med degree was just about how to toss a ball correctly or tape an ankle? If so, then I would say you wasted 4 years of education if all you got out of it was a couple of "skills". I do know the education behind some of those degrees are extensive to where the person is able to adapt to several areas in health care and sports. 



> I WILL likely take out a student loan to pay the tuition AND keep my pay and benefits to support my family. My wife will continue to work part time and take care of the kids full time while I'm away from my family for *3 straight months.* Then, as you know, they will continue to put up with my 24 hr shifts, and add on to that my clinicals and rides for another total of around 400 hrs.


 
What makes you so different with the rest of us or anyone who has sought higher education? 400 hours is about 1/3 of what other heath care programs (including a good 2 year Paramedic degree) require in clinicals. No one is telling you to go through 4 more years of college as those who want to enter other health care professions must do. Look at Phyisical Therapy. That profession wants a Masters at entry with a doctorate preferred. Yet, many still make the sacrifices it takes if that is what they want to do for a CAREER and not just a job with a union card. 

And yes if you choose a private medic school for your training you will pay for it heavily financially whereas a state college will have more reasonable tuition and may even take your previous education into consideration. If you want to be a good Paramedic and not just brag about having a patch, go with a quality school. 

If you or your family can't survive for 3 months of training then you may have other issues that need to be worked out before you start any project. If you lack the confidence in yourself or your family maybe you should just be satisfied with what you have until whatever other issues are resolved.


----------



## MrBrown (Jan 1, 2010)

You've never mentioned why you want to become a Paramedic: money? skills? fancy toys? flash patch? 

Our ALS course is four years, ILS is three, I can only immagine the quality of graduate you'd get out a 3 month wonder tech-cert-gone-horribly-wrong type of patch factory.


----------



## Ridryder911 (Jan 1, 2010)

Amazing, there is always an excuse! Either do it right or don't do it at all. If we had that type of attitude then EMS would have the proper respect and benefits associated to a profession. 

Does one think that nursing or any other medical related profession does not require sacrifices, yet we don't see them whining as much. Of course then again, they as a profession require a formal education prior to entering the workforce (yes, we are the only health profession that does not. 

R/r911


----------



## sleepless near seattle (Jan 1, 2010)

Wow, you two really read a lot in to what gets said and go off on a lot of tangents.  Enjoy the rest of your forum careers, and welcome to a third insane blogger, I'm done.


----------



## reaper (Jan 1, 2010)

You asked for advice, then get defensive when they don't agree with you!


----------



## ffemt8978 (Jan 1, 2010)

I've removed 16 posts from this thread that were completely off topic.

If I have to do it again, those involved will be getting a forum vacation.


----------



## Achromatic (Jan 2, 2010)

VentMedic said:


> Just starting an IV does not make you ALS. Who cares if you can start an IV if you don't know why or can do little else once the IV is started? Washington is also known, but not in a good way, for its 7 or 8 different certs with some based on ONE skill and is often used as an example of the fragmentation that has taken place in EMS education and certifications. That is truly something not to be proud of. Imagine if all the other health care professions had a state or national level "cert" just for one skill and every skill they could do.



I am -so- glad that as of about 25 hours ago, Washington state is now an NREMT state.


----------



## JPINFV (Jan 2, 2010)

So... umm... is Washington doing away with the IV, airway, IV/Airway, intermediate life support, and intermediate life support/airway levels or just starting to use NREMT for first responder and EMT-B?

On the bright side, what ever disservice that having so many middle level is doesn't compare to the fraud that Iowa commits against its citizens by calling an EMT-I/99 a "paramedic."


Edit: Actually, it does look like Washington did away with the intermediate levels: 
http://www.doh.wa.gov/hsqa/emstrauma/download/draftwac246-976.pdf


----------



## Achromatic (Jan 2, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> So... umm... is Washinton doing away with the IV, airway, IV/Airway, intermediate life support, and intermediate life support/airway levels or just starting to use NREMT for first responder and EMT-B?
> 
> On the bright side, what ever disservice that having so many middle level is doesn't compare to the fraud that Iowa commits against its citizens by calling an EMT-I/99 a "paramedic."



To the very best of my knowledge, ILS is not recognized on a statewide level (unsure if any counties implement, but certainly not King (Seattle), Pierce (Tacoma), or Thurston (Olympia)).

EMT-P's have been on NR for a little while, and now FR and -B are joining them.

Though I am new to the whole thing, also to my knowledge, IV / Airway techs are not used in a prehospital emergent care context (hence my question much earlier in the thread querying the original poster on this - unfortunately 'coastal' Washington encompases 5-9 counties, depending on your perspective - Pacific, Grays Harbor, Jefferson, Clallam, San Juan, Whatcom, Skagit, Snohomish, Kitsap)...


----------



## MrBrown (Jan 2, 2010)

Achromatic said:


> .....unfortunately 'coastal' Washington encompases 5-9 counties, depending on your perspective - Pacific, *Grays Harbor*, Jefferson, Clallam, San Juan, Whatcom, Skagit, Snohomish, Kitsap)...



So where is Grey's Anatomy?


----------



## EMSLaw (Jan 2, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Edit: Actually, it does look like Washington did away with the intermediate levels:
> http://www.doh.wa.gov/hsqa/emstrauma/download/draftwac246-976.pdf



Seems like they're going with the EMR > EMT > AEMT > Paramedic levels from the National Scope of Practice Model.  

Good for them, definitely an improvement over the schizophrenic system they had.

Though it seems like they are making one year of EMT experience a prerequisite for Paramedic training by law, which kinda stinks.


----------



## VentMedic (Jan 2, 2010)

Achromatic said:


> Though I am new to the whole thing, also to my knowledge, IV / Airway techs are not used in a prehospital emergent care context


 
This was mentioned because of what the OP stated:



sleepless near seattle said:


> We are a damn good ALS agency that DOES have IV techs who DO start IV's.


----------



## medichopeful (Jan 2, 2010)

MrBrown said:


> So where is Grey's Anatomy?



Probably where you left your sense of humor 

I kidd I kidd.


----------



## AKidd (Jan 2, 2010)

medichopeful said:


> I kidd I kidd.



Yes?  You called?  Oh, sorry, I'm A Kidd... never mind. h34r:


----------



## medichopeful (Jan 4, 2010)

AKidd said:


> Yes?  You called?  Oh, sorry, I'm A Kidd... never mind. h34r:



Boo!


----------



## JPINFV (Jan 4, 2010)

You get a Rick Roll and a rimshot.


----------



## medichopeful (Jan 4, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> You get a Rick Roll and a rimshot.



Oh I see what you did there <_<


----------



## JPINFV (Jan 4, 2010)

medichopeful said:


> Oh I see what you did there <_<



The great thing is that that post was the last one on that page, so no one will get any warnings until it's too late.


----------



## MrBrown (Jan 4, 2010)

Aw shucks you guys are too much :lol:

It's great to see Washington move away from its crazy system of skills to the National SOP model.

I say "great' rather judiciously as the NSOP model is quite dissapointing in many aspects; e.g. increasing education and doing anway with the old and out-dated 94 B/85 and 99 I/98 P cirricula but no real increase (and infact, a DECREASE for Adv EMT) in terms of scope of practice.

Now I do know that the model is just that, a model and can be changed by various states or individual medical directors as they see fit however I think its quite sad that it's been nearly 15 years in the making and still doesn't stack up very well when compared to other international systems such as Australia, Canada and New Zealand - although I think ours could be better.

Oh and I just found out our Intensive Care Paramedic degree is 3,600 hours .... take that Dr Mike Copass and Seattle at 3,000, neener neener neener! OK that was kind of immature and inflamatory in nature, sorry Seattle 

..... Brown away to get the solumedrol h34r:


----------



## Melclin (Jan 4, 2010)

Bugger me, I sat down and roughly worked out the total hours of university and clinical experience (clinical placements, internships, clinical experience) that it takes to become a MICA paramedic (that's an EMT-P) these days after reading your post Brown . It's bloody huge.

- 2,500 hours of undergraduate studies (uni contact hours and a conservative estimate of the time spent on the self directed learning exercises, *not* including exam study/scenario work which is substantial but impossible to measure as an average hour count).
- ~500 hours clinical placements. 
- ~ 1 year Internship/Grad year (I estimate it to take 2100 hours assuming normal full time work + a little over time here and there, but that doesn't include service requirements for CPE/study/assessment etc).
- Minimum of two years experience as a qualified Ambulance Paramedic (our version of a basic)(~4200 hours assuming very little overtime)
- MICA Graduate Diploma (1 year - I really have no idea what the contact hours for the grad dip are like but I hear its very intensive. Comparing our requirements and credit points to those of the grad dip, I estimate the actual contact hours to be somewhere around the 800 hr mark with the same in personal study time)(~1500 hours). 
-Another year before full qualification and the ability to perform the full extent of the MICA practicum, (namely RSI and cric to my knowledge). RSI requires extra training and approval by the medical over-site people. But we won't include that time.

That means an extremely conservative estimate of the time it takes, assuming you do well, complete everything in the minimum time periods and begin the MICA grad dip at the minimum time from when you first qualify, that still puts the conservative hour count at roughly *11,000 hours* before you even become a probationary MICA paramedic. Perhaps 3,500+ of that is university in class book learnin' time. Suck on them apples Seattle.

(Now, all we have to do is stop piss farting about being useless college students and all that fancy book learnin that our universities like to brag about us having might actually count for something )


----------



## 46Young (Jan 4, 2010)

Let's see, from what I can gather from reading several EMS forums is that several medical professions started with tech cert qualifications only. Those in these respective careers were generally like minded in regards to higher education, and were able to organize to cause change in their field. They were afforded the time to advance their education to the degree level. This was naturally on a part time basis, since these were working professionals, and quitting work for several years would be unreasonable with a mortgage, a family to support, the need for medical coverage and such. 

The problem at the present is that any newcomers wanting to earn a degree in these fields are required to attend school FT only. Those already established in the field have no problem with this. Why would they? "I got mine!" Making the program accessible to a greater number of people would result in less demand for those in their field and ultimately affect their bottom line. 

FT school is most appropriate for young adults living with parents, and to a lesser extent single working professionals without children who have the ability to structure FT work around class time. Remember, young adults have the benefit of being able to use their parent's medical coverage. A working professional would need to drop their coverage if FT school and FT work prove incompatible. PT alternatives ought to be available for those who are unable to attend FT. You say if you want it "just do it"? Life isn't a Nike commercial. You can have the best spouse in the world, but how will that affect them emotionally when you virtually desert them? You'll be like two ships passing in the night. What about your children? How will having an absentee parent affect their emotional and social development? How about your own emotional well being? Your children are only young once. If you miss out, that time not spent with them in irreplaceable.

Anyway, for an EMS AAS degree, I have a simple solution. Take A&P and pharm. Complete the medic tech school. Use the P-card for whatever you want, be it hospital based EMS, third service, private, fire based. Your choice. Now you're working, providing for your family, receiving medical coverage, and in a much better position to complete the degree. That's right, around my way, a P-card gets you 37 credits toward an EMS AAS. Now you can complete the degree, with all assosciated benefits, on your own time, tailored to your own schedule. I don't see this as being any different than what other professions went through back in the day when they went from tech to degree status. Didn't RN's and more recently CRT>RRT do this? (I don't have firsthand knowledge of this, just what I can gather from reading the forums)

If you're young and mostly free of financial obligation, go to school FT. No reason to do otherwise. If you're a working professional with social/financial responsibilities, you have to be a little more creative.

I'm not necessarily against education. However, if the college isn't willing to offer PT options, you gotta do what you gotta do. I, for one, wouldn't take no for an answer if other options are available, provided that's what I really want to do.


----------



## VentMedic (Jan 4, 2010)

46Young said:


> I don't see this as being any different than what other professions went through back in the day when they went from tech to degree status. Didn't RN's and more recently CRT>RRT do this? (I don't have firsthand knowledge of this, just what I can gather from reading the forums)


 
The reason entry level was changed to a degree in both of those professions is they saw a problem with just having a "tech" with little to no education backing up their skills. 

Health care professions now require a degree for entry. No more "okay you can be a tech and get your degree later" stuff because most never went back for their degree. You are an example of that. You are now in your mid 30s and still have not gotten a degree and rely on just a few skills and what little book learning you go from your tech school.  Have you ever thought your patients might benefit from someone who know a few of the whys of the skills and meds?  Has patient care ever been a thought in your ramblings about union cards and money? 

Employers also started expecting degrees from RRTs about 20 years before they were mandatory. The "tech" with just one year of school was okay to give nebulizer treatments on the med-surg floors but that was not sufficient to manage a critical care patient.

As already stated, many of us had financial responsibilites and families when we went to college. There many thousands of students, young and older, doing this everyday throughout the world. 

Enough with all the excuses. One should plan for the future and that definitely should include their education. You shouldn't wait until you are TOLD you must have a degree. That union mentality of "make me" is really not appropriate in the medical professions. But then, do you think a Paramedic can be a medical professional?


----------



## Melclin (Jan 4, 2010)

46Young said:


> FT school is most appropriate for young adults living with parents, and to a lesser extent single working professionals without children who have the ability to structure FT work around class time. Remember, young adults have the benefit of being able to use their parent's medical coverage. A working professional would need to drop their coverage if FT school and FT work prove incompatible. PT alternatives ought to be available for those who are unable to attend FT. You say if you want it "just do it"? Life isn't a Nike commercial. You can have the best spouse in the world, but how will that affect them emotionally when you virtually desert them? You'll be like two ships passing in the night. What about your children? How will having an absentee parent affect their emotional and social development? How about your own emotional well being? Your children are only young once. If you miss out, that time not spent with them in irreplaceable.



I go to uni with plenty of people who have changed career direction. Who have kids, or work substantially outside of uni hours to support themselves. Our degree is three years full time. One of my classmates has three children, is the full time carer of her disabled brother and commutes three hours to uni every day with her children. It can be done. Besides at the end of the day the qualifications need to be structured around what is best for the patient, not what is most convenient for those wanting to undertake them. The analogy of med school keeps coming up in these discussions and I feel its valid. Its take a long time to learn all that fancy medical book learnin'. You don't wanna go to college for 8 years? Then you don't get to be a doctor. Tough.

And of course I live in a civilized country so concerns about paying for health care don't tend to stop people from getting an education and since the government pays the fees for the vast majority of university students with no interest loans that you pay back when you earn enough to do so, neither does poverty. Also, government subsidies are available for students who have trouble supporting themselves, especially for qualifications for professions that we need more of.


----------



## grich242 (Jan 4, 2010)

While I can agree that college is more often the better option. I have to admit that I attended a private school, for ems and was sent there by more than one "college" instructor. You need to look at the programs themselves and their requirements, For instance at the time (many years ago) some of the college courses were run by private companies, with plenty of paperwork horror stories of coworkers waiting over a year to test. secondly I was reqiured to take needless classes like 4 credit hours of phys ed. at $120 a credit hour I dont need to attend a gym class. The school I attended was taught by someone with an education degree ( not always true at colleges) and one college even sent students to my class at a much higer rate of tuition. That school was later bought out by a college. Now I will say that most of those programs have come a long way in recent years, but my only regret is not having the credits, especialy because the were given to some classmates who paid higher tuition rates and sat in the same classroom. I would still push for college programs for most students, However to paint all schools with one brush because they are "colleges" is not fair just like anything else.


----------



## 46Young (Jan 4, 2010)

VentMedic said:


> The reason entry level was changed to a degree in both of those professions is they saw a problem with just having a "tech" with little to no education backing up their skills.
> 
> Health care professions now require a degree for entry. No more "okay you can be a tech and get your degree later" stuff because most never went back for their degree. You are an example of that. You are now in your mid 30s and still have not gotten a degree and rely on just a few skills and what little book learning you go from your tech school.  Have you ever thought your patients might benefit from someone who know a few of the whys of the skills and meds?  Has patient care ever been a thought in your ramblings about union cards and money?
> 
> ...



I was in EMS for over 5 years before I went union. I entered the field due to genuine interest. Compensation is always high on the list when considering a career path. The paycheck is how I eat and put a roof over my head. There's nothing wrong with seeking the best compensation for your services.

I've seen no little to no difference in pt care from a degree provider when compared to a tech cert provider in the prehospital arena. Experience in busy systems with high acuity pts seems to make the most difference in my experience.

At least those CRT's giving meds on the med-surg floors were already employed FT and receiving benefits. They're able to complete their degrees while working at their own pace.

Also, what opportunities were available to you aren't available to everyone. We all have unique situations. Not excuses, but real life issues. What would the problem be with an option for earning a degree PT? I don't understand the negatives assosciated with that. 

You already know my story. My decisions to defer higher education were strictly financially based. It worked out exceedingly well. We're compensated on par with many holding 4-6 year degrees in the area, plus a generous pension, plus a three year DROP. Cost of living isn't too bad here either. I'm bringing this up again because you keep pointing out that I'm in my 30's and don't yet hold any degrees. I'm compensated more so than if I waited and completed a degree, and I can enjoy the compensation NOW while I knock out a few degrees while I enjoy a safe, secure career. You'll have a hard time convincing me that I've made the wrong choice. In fact, it was a "smarter" decision in my particular case (not generally speaking, but in my situation) to do what I did. And I'm back in school now. 

So what if I've waited until my 30's to go back to college? You make it sound like a bad thing. Nothing was lost in the process, in fact we're way better off financially having gone this route and I've had many fun adventures on the job (FT), and generally enjoying life while getting to this point. 

It's all about weighing each and every option (schools career paths), each and every variable (opportunity cost, monthly living expenses, family, schedule conflicts, retirement, future trend of job availability, as in do it now and get in or take your time and be shut out) and choosing what's best for you. Everyone's situation is different. These are all valid considerations when talking about a career path after all.


----------



## 46Young (Jan 4, 2010)

Melclin said:


> I go to uni with plenty of people who have changed career direction. Who have kids, or work substantially outside of uni hours to support themselves. Our degree is three years full time. One of my classmates has three children, is the full time carer of her disabled brother and commutes three hours to uni every day with her children. It can be done. Besides at the end of the day the qualifications need to be structured around what is best for the patient, not what is most convenient for those wanting to undertake them. The analogy of med school keeps coming up in these discussions and I feel its valid. Its take a long time to learn all that fancy medical book learnin'. You don't wanna go to college for 8 years? Then you don't get to be a doctor. Tough.
> 
> And of course I live in a civilized country so concerns about paying for health care don't tend to stop people from getting an education and since the government pays the fees for the vast majority of university students with no interest loans that you pay back when you earn enough to do so, neither does poverty. Also, government subsidies are available for students who have trouble supporting themselves, especially for qualifications for professions that we need more of.



We don't enjoy the same subsidies and covered healthcare that your country has. Also, who's watching the children while that lady is going to class? Does the uni provide free healthcare? Over here, healthcare is the responsibility of the parent, and can be prohibitively expensive.

What's wrong with a PT option to make education more available to the masses? What negatives are assosciated with that? Why would that be a bad thing?


----------



## 46Young (Jan 4, 2010)

Vent, since you've attatched a negative connotation to my decision to defer college, consider this:

A family has a baby. The husband is an EMT. The wife is currently unemployed. The EMT salary falls slightly short of covering household expenses. The husband pursues a four year degree, maybe a BSN or something while the wife goes back to work for roughly the same salary as the EMT. The newborn is put into daycare a few days a week at great cost to the family. Loans are taken out for school, and credit cards are run up to cover to monthly deficit in household expenses. Maybe the husband does some per diem work to break even. The husband and wife never see each other, and strangers are raising the child during the day. After four years, there's sizeable debt, and zero savings in deferred comp,thanks to household expenses. The couple's combined salaries barely make ends meet. That would be true if things like car repairs, clothing costs and medical expenses weren't factored in.

There's a better way. The wife stays home with the child while the husband does a 15 month paramedic tech program (this story is about us if you haven't yet figured it out). The couple only goes five thousand in the hole, since the husband kept his FT employment and did some OT when available. This five grand is paid back quickly. The wife goes back to work, since the husband works nights on a family friendly schedule. The father in law works, but he can watch the baby for an hour or towo if the husband is late from work.

The couple is able to save 12k/yr in deferred comp, not including a 403b match for sake of argument. This gains 7% annually, a purposefully conservative number. The couple will have over 36k invested. In another 36 years they'll have $411,000 in deferred comp. This is with an anemic 7% return, and no future contributions whatsoever. Remember, I haven't even factored in the company match. The actual figure would be much higher. That's opportunity cost. The couple also decides to pursue firemedic employment in lieu of pursuing a nursing degree. The benefits and compensation are as stated previously. So, in the same four years, the latter option resulted in zero debt, a retirement investment that will be worth over 400k, and little time lost together as a family. School still is an option, one that the husband is actively engaged in. I forgot to mention that the family was also able to save for a house, something they would have never been able to do in the first scenario. Maybe they'll be ready when they're 50 or something. 70-80k with the BSN, or the same at the FD, with much greater benefits and zero debt or emotional strain to the family. The deferred comp, house savings, and new job with stellar compensation and benefits is called "opportunity cost", the variable that most education advocates conveniently forget or otherwise sidestep. Hey, maybe PT college would have been an option if it existed. A PT course load would allow the husband to work PT to cover expenses, or the wife could work somewhere PT as well, not having to pay for childcare, which would largely defeat the purpose of working in the first place. 

I haven't mentioned this as much as I should, but I happen to love my job, both sides of it, and desire to excel. If I had landed a job at a good third service agency (I applied to Lee County EMS at the same time as the others) I would have been equally as happy. Seeking the best compensation for my services has absolutely no bearing on my proficiency and motivation to do well as a provider. 

You'll have a most difficult time convincing me that I've made the wrong choices in my particular situation. My desire for the best compensation and deferment of college to that end doesn't make me any less of a prehospital provider. Unless you sat next to me in class and did clinicals alongside me your opinions regarding my training are invalid and naturally inaccurate.


----------



## VentMedic (Jan 4, 2010)

46Young said:


> We don't enjoy the same subsidies and covered healthcare that your country has. Also, who's watching the children while that lady is going to class? Does the uni provide free healthcare? Over here, healthcare is the responsibility of the parent, and can be prohibitively expensive.


 
You are passing along incorrect information.

There are many colleges as well as employers in the U.S. that provide daycare services. In fact, the kids may even benefit from the students who are seeking a degree in education as their babysitters at the universities. Also, many colleges do offer clinics and student insurance for those attending their school. 

Just be a FF and let those who want to advance EMS to the level of medical professional with more education do the Paramedic stuff. It is unfortunate that the FDs will now applaud anyone for getting a degree in Fire Science but continue to view the Paramedic as just an "add on" like a CPR card. As long as the FDs are doing a "knee-jerk" get everyone trained as a Paramedic just to grab funding, EMS will continue to be held to by the standards of the lowest denominator.


----------



## MrBrown (Jan 4, 2010)

VentMedic said:


> ...As long as the FDs are doing a "knee-jerk" get everyone trained as a Paramedic just to grab funding, EMS will continue to be held to by the standards of the lowest denominator.



It all makes sense now


----------



## 18G (Jan 4, 2010)

46young... definitely agree with ya. Not everyone can go to school full-time. Its just not feasible. The ones that are saying "just do it" or forget it are the ones who already have their degrees. So easy for them to say. 

As long as you reach the point you want to reach, it doesnt matter what path it takes to get there.


----------



## 46Young (Jan 4, 2010)

VentMedic said:


> You are passing along incorrect information.
> 
> There are many colleges as well as employers in the U.S. that provide daycare services. In fact, the kids may even benefit from the students who are seeking a degree in education as their babysitters at the universities. Also, many colleges do offer clinics and student insurance for those attending their school.
> 
> Just be a FF and let those who want to advance EMS to the level of medical professional with more education do the Paramedic stuff. It is unfortunate that the FDs will now applaud anyone for getting a degree in Fire Science but continue to view the Paramedic as just an "add on" like a CPR card. As long as the FDs are doing a "knee-jerk" get everyone trained as a Paramedic just to grab funding, EMS will continue to be held to by the standards of the lowest denominator.



My bad on the daycare thing.

Don't try and make my posts into some kind of "firefighter thing". I was a professional EMT first and later a medic without any aspirations of the fire service at the time. My viewpoints regarding opportunity cost and circumventing the FT college process were well in place before I was ever hired by a FD. 

Many large depts could care less if you have a fire science degree during the hiring process. The current trend in the fire service, from what I've seen and heard is to have promotional candidates hold degrees to qualify for officer promotions, or at least admin positions. Where I work, an EMS degree, ASN/BSN, RT, PA degrees and such are reimbursed and just as valuable as degrees in business management and fire science. Certain positions, such as an EMS Captain or BC EMS would require a BA in EMS. And no, we're not requiring all our FF's to become medics.

Don't project your gross generalizations about the fire service onto my dept and certainly don't imply that my job performance in EMS is substandard as a result of those same generalizations.

I think I'll hold on to my P-card, sorry to disappoint you. I chose this dept because of the significant amount of attention and resources given to their EMS, among other important things. I chose to switch sides and play for the winning team, where employees are well taken care of. Besides, dropping my medic cert would mean a $20k/yr pay cut and loss of copious OT opportunity. That would mostly defeat the purpose of moving here.

I got the absolute most out of my tech cert investment. I'd be foolish not to take what opportunities are out there. So I didn't put my life on hold for 4 years or more to do it. Cry me a river. 

For anyone else with a tech cert listening, you can do what I'm doing. Get your EMS AAS after the fact. It's :censored: simple to do. If standards do rise in the future, you'll be protected. If enough of us do it, maybe salaries will rise or something. It's also only another two years after that for a BA where you'll qualify for an admin position. Then you can be an "I got mine" and demand that everyone after you do it the long way (kidding).


----------



## VentMedic (Jan 4, 2010)

If only the Paramedic was to join the ranks of other medical professions and be recognized as such we wouldn't be subject to those who want EMS to stay in the dark ages.  Those opposed to education simply would not be a Paramedic. Period.


----------



## 46Young (Jan 4, 2010)

VentMedic said:


> If only the Paramedic was to join the ranks of other medical professions and be recognized as such we wouldn't be subject to those who want EMS to stay in the dark ages.  Those opposed to education simply would not be a Paramedic. Period.



True enough, but the EMS profession is fragmented, largely transient and poorly organized. As such, the needed reform seems to be a long way off. Given the current state of things, many will still go the most efficient route. If PT school was an option, maybe more would go that route rather than a tech school. If these schools are turning out such an inferior product, then why are they not being shut down? Why are most employers, not only FD's but employers across the board, not even asking where you got your card? I've certainly never been asked where I've gone to medic school. This includes three hospital based EMS agencies, three privates, one third service and one FD.


----------



## 46Young (Jan 4, 2010)

18G said:


> 46young... definitely agree with ya. Not everyone can go to school full-time. Its just not feasible. The ones that are saying "just do it" or forget it are the ones who already have their degrees. So easy for them to say.
> 
> As long as you reach the point you want to reach, it doesnt matter what path it takes to get there.



Yes, these people are the ones who are referred to as the "I got mine(s)." I'm established, I'm already in, so I don't care how difficult it is for everyone else. Your obligations outside of school don't concern us. You're either in or your out.


----------



## 46Young (Jan 4, 2010)

Would someone out there tell me what's wrong with having a PT option for the degree process? "I did it FT so everyone else should do the same" isn't a valid argument. It isn't valid because each person's situation is different. Too many variables to consider to just say "I went to school FT while working and everyone else should too."


----------



## VentMedic (Jan 4, 2010)

46Young said:


> Yes, these people are the ones who are referred to as the "I got mine(s)." I'm established, I'm already in, so I don't care how difficult it is for everyone else. Your obligations outside of school don't concern us.


 
Name a health care profession that would allow you entry without a degree?

RN? RT? PT? OT? SLP? MD? PA? NP? 

None of those will allow you to enter with just a few hours of training and a tech cert.   Even to be an assistant to OT and PT you need a minimum of a two year degree.  

I will ask again, do you think the Paramedic is a medical professional?


----------



## 46Young (Jan 4, 2010)

VentMedic said:


> Name a health care profession that would allow you entry without a degree?
> 
> RN? RT? PT? OT? SLP? MD? PA? NP?
> 
> ...



Sure, a paramedic is a medical professional. I've seen good medics and I've seen bad medics. I consider myself a good one, and I've worked with many as well. As far as training is concerned, you can't generalize tech schools. there are good ones and there are bad ones. Provided you take A&P and pharm prior to enrollment, the course content is pretty much the same. The degree is more desireable, but I've worked with proficient medics that graduated tech schools. You're lacking electives, but those aren't vital to be proficient as a medic. If you're going tech, you need to go to a quality school, not some fly by night program. Ask around to find opinions on programs in the area, and ask the good medics where they attended. In NY, the go-to school would be SUNY Stonybrook (tech), known for being rigorous and preparing their students well for the field. If you weren't sitting next to someone for the lectures, or have done clinicals at the same places, it's inaccurate to debunk anyone's paramedic training, unless you're specifically referring to local providers, who you've directly observed working.

What's the point of naming all those fields that require degrees? I'm asking what's wrong with PT enrollment?


----------



## Melclin (Jan 4, 2010)

46Young said:


> We don't enjoy the same subsidies and covered healthcare that your country has. Also, who's watching the children while that lady is going to class? Does the uni provide free healthcare? Over here, healthcare is the responsibility of the parent, and can be prohibitively expensive.
> 
> *The children, as do many of the children of students, either stay with the parent as they go to class, are baby sat by class mates or spend time at the university day care, and some of the faculty members will baby sit depending on your relationship with them. As it happens the uni does have a doctors clinic on campus, but the source of funding is no different to any other in the country. However, students don't have to pay the co-payment which, small as it is, can be difficult for some students.*
> 
> What's wrong with a PT option to make education more available to the masses? What negatives are assosciated with that? Why would that be a bad thing?





VentMedic said:


> Just be a FF and let those who want to advance EMS to the level of medical professional with more education do the Paramedic stuff. It is unfortunate that the FDs will now applaud anyone for getting a degree in Fire Science but continue to view the Paramedic as just an "add on" like a CPR card. As long as the FDs are doing a "knee-jerk" get everyone trained as a Paramedic just to grab funding, EMS will continue to be held to by the standards of the lowest denominator.



I think its unfair (although I don't know anything about any history between you and 46, which often seems to be the case in these kinds of arguments) to be characterizing him/her as someone who doesn't care about EMS and pts, just because the system as a whole is broken and he or she needs to find a way to work within it. 

That said, 46young mate, there's nothing wrong with doing the degree part time, but just like any other field, you just don't work until you finish the degree. *You can take as long as you want to get you degree in education, but you don't teach until you do - simple as that - and if you need to support your family, then you work a job that isn't teaching until you can*. 

Here we have certain options. A paramedic undertaking a degree in their second year can be considered to have a a roughly equivalent qualification to the non-emergency pt transport officers (who do a six month course) and can sometimes find a job doing that. But that's a different story to what we're talking about. What we're talking about is like those pt transport officers expecting to become MICA paramedics (normally a minimum 11,000 hrs/ 7 years) after they do a six month course, with the proviso that they complete their degrees later. I'm not trying to be uncharitable here but you can see how its simply absurd from the point of view of other HCPs and indeed paramedics in most of developed nations, that you can even consider this kind of education as adequate.


----------



## VentMedic (Jan 5, 2010)

Melclin said:


> I think its unfair (although I don't know anything about any history between you and 46, which often seems to be the case in these kinds of arguments) to be characterizing him/her as someone who doesn't care about EMS and pts, just because the system as a whole is broken and he or she needs to find a way to work within it.


 
He has just done too many threads on the forums trying to discourage the degree for the Paramedic. This includes the 2 year degree which even that is embarrassing for any medical profession. Thus, you see employers for RNs and RRTs now preferring the Bachelors degree and that may become their minimum entry very soon. The other professions have definitely passed them up in education and professional reimbursement recognition. The majority of his posts have also been about the perks of the FD and money with very little about patient care.

One can go to college part time at least to get the prequisites out of the way. However, EMS should follow the path to becoming a medical profession and have the entry raised to at least a 2 year degree. Unfortunately FDs and their unions will never allow that. However, that does not mean a FD will prevent those who are motivated to continue their education. One can be a FF and still promote quality patient care but to continue to state a tech cert is good enough fails as not all tech certs are equal and many of these medic mills need to vanish or stop feeding the FDs' desire for every FF to be a Paramedic just to get additional funding.


----------



## alphatrauma (Jan 5, 2010)

18G said:


> 46young... Not everyone can go to school full-time. Its just not feasible. The ones that are saying "just do it" or forget it are the ones who already have their degrees. So easy for them to say.



I would argue that "the ones who already have their degrees", did not simply have them bestowed upon them and there was some hard work and sacrifice involved at some point. Not everyone can go to school full time... that is a FACT! Yet one cannot ignore that THERE ARE options available, as it is not an all or nothing scenario. 

I could regale (the collective) you with the trials and tribulations associated with my college/university endeavors... but I fear all that would do is provoke the gratuitous "good for you" or "want a cookie?" responses. I personally feel that those who are practicing, and do not feel the need for or recognize the importance of a sound educational foundation at the collegiate level, are doing themselves/the profession/their patients a grave injustice.


----------



## VentMedic (Jan 5, 2010)

46Young said:


> Sure, a paramedic is a medical professional. I've seen good medics and I've seen bad medics. I consider myself a good one, and I've worked with many as well.


 
Now imagine how good you could be if you actually had some education to support the skills and protocols you are allowed to do.  Imagine what you could learn from a couple of real college level A&P classes instead of reading the adventures of Sidney Sinus and Abe AV nodes. 

You are only as good as what you can compare yourself with but if all the Paramedics around you have the same training and the same protocols, what do you have to compare anybody with?


----------



## MrBrown (Jan 5, 2010)

Best book I read all year, or all of last year


----------



## TomTheDancingHobo (Jan 25, 2010)

Man, you guys take it out on this dude to the point of absurdity. He asked a simple, reasonable  question, in a polite, deferential matter... and you guys basically told him he was a whiner idiot lazy moron who couldn't work as hard as the rest of you to go to school like everyone else even in washington which doesnt have _real_ ALS certs and blah blah blah.
All of which is a huge bummer to anyone, like him or myself, who doesn't know much, knows they don't know much, but wants to know more. So much for helping people.
Jeez.


----------



## EMTinNEPA (Jan 25, 2010)

VentMedic said:


> do you think the Paramedic is a medical professional?



Yes, I do.  Then again, I'll have a Bachelor's by the time I'm done with school.


----------



## dave3189 (Feb 27, 2010)

*Washington State*

BTW, what's with the shots on WA State?  Seattle (King County) has the best stats on survival for witnessed pre-hosptial C.A. in the country if not the entire globe (around 45-46%).  Some other jurisdictions might want to emulate WA state protocols?


----------



## medic417 (Feb 27, 2010)

dave3189 said:


> BTW, what's with the shots on WA State?  Seattle (King County) has the best stats on survival for witnessed pre-hosptial C.A. in the country if not the entire globe (around 45-46%).  Some other jurisdictions might want to emulate WA state protocols?



Only way to accurately compare would be if all services used the same criteria.  If all used the same criteria many services would be as high if not higher.  Sorry as always statistics can be manipulated to say whatever we want them to by including or excluding.


----------



## dave3189 (Feb 27, 2010)

Just telling you what the AHA has documented.  Even 60 Minutes said "If you have to have a heart attack, have it in Seattle".


----------



## medic417 (Feb 27, 2010)

dave3189 said:


> Just telling you what the AHA has documented.  Even 60 Minutes said "If you have to have a heart attack, have it in Seattle".



And 60 minutes means its a fact.


----------



## dave3189 (Feb 27, 2010)

The expression “If you have to have a heart attack, have it in Seattle,” was coined by 60 Minutes senior correspondent Morley Safer in a 1974 report that featured the fledgling Medic One program. 

A USA Today series on the nation’s emergency medical systems studying 2001 data said, “Seattle sets the standard among the largest cities. Its 45 percent survival rate is [the] highest.” 

A Seattle PI article from December 2006 reports that the most recent survival rate for sudden cardiac arrest in King County is 46 percent. Nationally, resuscitation rates for sudden cardiac arrest are between 6 and 10 percent, making King County the gold standard for emergency medical care. 

According to the AHA, Medic One has achieved survival rates for cardiac arrest that are several times greater than the national average.


----------



## JPINFV (Feb 27, 2010)

dave3189 said:


> A Seattle PI article from December 2006 reports that the most recent survival rate for sudden cardiac arrest in King County is 46 percent. Nationally, resuscitation rates for sudden cardiac arrest are between 6 and 10 percent, making King County the gold standard for emergency medical care.



The problem with cardiac arrest data is that not everyone is using the same criteria. For example, if one city is counting all cardiac arrest calls while another is using Utsein criteria, then the numbers won't be compatible.


----------



## dave3189 (Feb 27, 2010)

The stats refer to out of hospital witnessed sudden cardiac arrest and have been published by the AHA.  I love how people discount stats when they are not a benefit to them!


----------



## JPINFV (Feb 27, 2010)

I love how people get snippity when a legitimate comment is made. 



> Out-of-Hospital Cardiac Arrest — Statistics​There is a wide variation in the reported incidence of and outcome for out-of-hospital cardiac arrest. *These differences are due in part to differences in definition and ascertainment of cardiac arrest data,* as well as differences in treatment after the onset of cardiac arrest. Cardiac arrest is defined as cessation of cardiac mechanical activity and is confirmed by the absence of signs of circulation.* Available epidemiological databases do not adequately characterize cardiac arrest* or the subset of cases that occur with sudden onset. The following information summarizes representative data from several sources in an attempt to characterize the incidence and outcome of out-of-hospital cardiac arrest. (Circulation. 2004; 110: 3385–3397)



emphasis added.

http://www.americanheart.org/downloadable/heart/1236978541670OUT_OF_HOSP.pdf


----------



## Veneficus (Feb 27, 2010)

dave3189 said:


> The stats refer to out of hospital witnessed sudden cardiac arrest and have been published by the AHA.  I love how people discount stats when they are not a benefit to them!



I don't think this is a case of discounting stats, but scrutinizing them. 

As it was pointed out, If I am counting all cardiac arrests and basing my saves on survival to discharge neuro intact, my numbers will be worse than only counting witnessed arrests with immedate CPR and 7 day survival. 

The AHA is not the final say, look at the European resuscitation guidlines, they do not always match up. Is that to say somebody is wrong?

The AHA also has had some past flubs, which is why they constantly disclaim certain treatments are not recognized over others.


----------



## reaper (Feb 27, 2010)

Because stats can be manipulated to whatever you want them to say! If Medic one was really that much better then the rest of the world, don't you think there would be a push to do what they are doing?

They may only include shockable rhythms in their stats. So, for every 50 arrests that are run, you may have 5 that are in a shockable rhythm. If you have ROSC on 3 of those, then you percentage would be over 60%. So what about the other 45 people that were not included in it?

A lot of services include all pt in their percentages, so they have a lower overall rate.

Hell, I can put up stats that show 80% survival rates. Just depends on what I am counting!


----------



## dave3189 (Feb 27, 2010)

Not getting Snippity, just an observation.  Your comments are valid about differences in reporting, however as I said... these stats refer to a particular segment of C.A.  The below article about Utstein even mentions King County in relation to the 46% survival rate in comparison to other communities and stats relating to different criteria.  The 46%, again, refers to out of hospital witnessed sudden C.A., even further with VT/VF.  The stat is valid and is not in question.  That being said, I wouldn't expect it to be compared blindly to all cardiac save rates regardless of criteria.  


The effect of different definitions on survival rates is readily apparent from a 1991 King County study. The study reports rates of survival ranging from 16% to 49% depending on definitions of what patients comprise the denominator. (Eisenberg MS, Cummins RO, Larsen MP. Numerators, denominators, and survival rates: reporting survival from out-of-hospital cardiac arrest. Am J Emerg Med 1991;9:544-6.) For example, when all the cardiac arrests from all the causes are included the survival (hospital discharge) rate is 16%. But if only witnessed collapse cases due to underlying heart disease with an onset of CPR of 4 minutes or less and definitive care of less than 8 minutes are included then the survival jumps to 49%. Same community, different survival rates. It’s magic! Just change the definition and one triples the survival rate. This is why trying to draw cross-community comparisons when all parties do not agree on the definitions is like attempting to organize a tournament when each team plays by its own rules. A community, determined to be number one in cardiac arrest survival, could simply define its cases as patients with witnessed cardiac arrests in VF, who have bystander CPR, who respond to one shock with a perfusing rhythm (good blood pressure and pulse), and who wonder what’s for dinner upon arrival in the coronary care unit. Such a denominator might result in a survival rate close to 100% yet such a figure would be silly and meaningless.


----------



## JPINFV (Feb 27, 2010)

dave3189 said:


> Not getting Snippity, just an observation.  Your comments are valid about differences in reporting, however as I said... these stats refer to a particular segment of C.A.  The below article about Utstein even mentions King County in relation to the 46% survival rate in comparison to other communities and stats relating to different criteria.  The 46%, again, refers to out of hospital witnessed sudden C.A., even further with VT/VF.  The stat is valid and is not in question.  That being said, I wouldn't expect it to be compared blindly to all cardiac save rates regardless of criteria.



Still doesn't resolve the problem that you don't know what criteria was used to generate the 6-10% stat that you're comparing it to. It's like saying one farmer is better than another because his watermelons are bigger than the other farmer's apples. So is the watermelon farmer the gold standard? I'm not saying that something like Utstein shouldn't be used, however if different criteria is used to generate numbers in two different locations, then you can't compare numbers and declare a winner.


----------



## dave3189 (Feb 27, 2010)

Good discussion here, I have to admit!  Great, looks like I'm spending Saturday afternoon researching the validity of cardiac survival stats!


----------



## NomadicMedic (Feb 28, 2010)

Interesting fact; The ROC (Resuscitation Outcomes Consortium) examined out of hospital cardiac arrest survival. The study, published in JAMA in 2008, showed the survival rate in Seattle was only 16.3%



> Researchers found a total of 20,520 cases of out-of-hospital cardiac arrests, with a 4.6% overall survival rate


_http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/122964.php_

There's some good stuff to read here, if you're really interested. 
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/conten...ts&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT

Yeah, Seattle has impressive Citizen CPR training. (It's somewhere around 65% of the population. Not too shabby.) But, Medic One doesn't do anything that the rest of us don't, when it comes to resuscitation of cardiac arrest patients. Adding an ITD, Auto-Pulse, hypothermia, or whatever else you may have in your drug box, we're all in the same boat. 



> The researchers noted that little improvement has been made considering survival rates from out-of-hospital cardiac arrests in the past 30 years (Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 9/24)


----------

