# Hospital Shootings this week



## VentMedic (Jun 9, 2009)

http://www.contracostatimes.com/ci_12540879?source=rss

*Police fatally shoot Rio Vista man in Martinez hospital ER*

Posted: 06/07/2009 10:21:47 AM PDT



> MARTINEZ — Sheriff's deputies shot and killed a man in a hospital emergency room early Sunday morning after he threatened nurses and a deputy with a knife, said hospital officials and a spokesman for the Sheriff's Office.


 
*Husband Charged in Fatal Florida Hospital Shooting*

Monday, June 8, 2009

http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?id=9675&siteSection=1



> The estranged husband of a certified nursing assistant who was fatally shot at a local hospital early Monday morning has been charged with first degree murder, the Titusville Police Department said.Video: Garvin-Williams' Family Reacts
> 
> 
> The gunfire erupted in the parking lot of the Parish Medical Center on N. Washington Avenue in Brevard County just before 7 a.m.


 
_*Other fairly recent shootings at hospitals (where the gunman wasn't an employee).  And this was just a quick search when they popped up while I was getting the link for the above shootings.*_

*3 Killed at Doctor's Hospital in Columbus, GA over Mothers Death *

| March 27, 2008 at 12:10 pm 

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/3-killed-doctors-hospital-columbus-ga-over-mothers-death



> Columbus- March 27, 2008, 5:30 pm - (IMNS) - A male nurse, a male administrative assistant, and another unidentified hospital worker are dead following a shooting at Doctor's Hospital AKA Columbus Regional Medical Center in Columbus, Georgia. At approximately 2:00 pm this afternoon, a Man, identified as Charles Johnson, 63, a retired school teacher, went to the 5th floor ward with a gun and began to open fire on hospital workers. He shot two people on the ward and another on the parking deck as he left the hospital, three are now confirmed dead according to police.


 

*911 Calls From Hospital Shooting Released*
http://www.news4jax.com/news/16688772/detail.html
Monday, June 23, 2008



> JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- Four days after a triple shooting at a downtown hospital left two people dead, an 11-year-old boy injured and several hospital patrons scared, Jacksonville police make public the 911 calls.
> 
> The shooting took place last Thursday in the parking garage of Baptist Medical Center.


 
*Officers Cleared in Hospital Shooting*

http://www.policelink.com/news/articles/103980-officers-cleared-in-hospital-shooting
April 25, 2009



> NORTH LAS VEGAS, NV – When the call came through about a gun-toting man inside a hospital waiting room, all sorts of scenarios flooded Henderson police officer Randy Dotson’s head.


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## Sasha (Jun 9, 2009)

That's so sad. Totally nuts. It takes a really sick person to shoot up a hospital.


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## Fir Na Au Saol (Jul 23, 2009)

*These atories are all fake...*

They have to be. Aren't hospitals "gun free" zones? Don't they have those little signs all over saying "No Guns/Weapons Allowed"? 

Or is it just remotely possible that those little signs are NOT magic talismans that cause armed evil doers to turn to righteousness on sight? :blink:


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## VentMedic (Jul 23, 2009)

No, the stories are not fake.

We had an extensive discussion about how some hospitals must enforce their gun-free zones and a few here thought they were too strict. Unfortunately, it is necessary.


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## Fir Na Au Saol (Jul 23, 2009)

*I actually agree with you, at least in part...*



VentMedic said:


> No, the stories are not fake.
> 
> We had an extensive discussion about how *some hospitals must enforce their gun-free zones *and a few here thought they were too strict. Unfortunately, it is necessary.


My post above was meant as sarcasm to point out the idiocy of relying solely on signs with no physical enforcement such as metal detectors, searches etc. If you're going to create a "gun free" zone, you have to do it right. The people who will obey the silly little signs are probably not a threat even if they were armed. The people who intend harm will simply ignore the silly little signs. Just review the news for the past few years and look at all the shootings that have occurred in un-enforced "gun free" zones.

Personally, I am a strong advocate of allowing people to exercise the fundamental human right of self defense.













That's my $0.02 YMMV.


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## VentMedic (Jul 23, 2009)

I would say we do it very well although many do take offense to Security Guards at the metal detectors where everyone, including the patients, will be scanned.  We also have an armed Police Force to back up the Security Guards.


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## WuLabsWuTecH (Jul 23, 2009)

Most hospitals have security guards that are armed now.

And in response to our second amendment supporter: Yes, it won't stop people, but what it will stop are good, usually, law abiding citizens who in the heat of the moment under a lot of stress reach for their gun.  There's a lot of stress that goes on in the hospital, and when a doctor comes out and gives you bad news about your son and you have a gun, in a moment of temporary unrestraint you may reach fo ryour gun and go after the intoxicated guy in the other room that ran him down.


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## Fir Na Au Saol (Jul 23, 2009)

WuLabsWuTecH said:


> Most hospitals have security guards that are armed now.
> 
> And in response to our second amendment supporter: Yes, it won't stop people, but what it will stop are good, usually, law abiding citizens who in the heat of the moment under a lot of stress reach for their gun.  There's a lot of stress that goes on in the hospital, and when a doctor comes out and gives you bad news about your son and you have a gun, in a moment of temporary unrestraint you may reach for your gun and go after the intoxicated guy in the other room that ran him down.



FWIW; None of the Albuquerque hospitals have armed security. 

And I can see limiting weapons in certain places, even though I believe in self defense. What I'm getting at here is; "If you're going to do it, do it right". Far too many places, hospitals and otherwise, seem to rely on some supposed "magical" ability of a silly little sign to stop the bad guys in their tracks. Make it fair one way or the other; Let me have defensive weapons, or make darn sure the bad guys don't.


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## VentMedic (Jul 23, 2009)

Fir Na Au Saol said:


> And I can see limiting weapons in certain places, even though I believe in self defense. What I'm getting at here is; "If you're going to do it, do it right". Far too many places, hospitals and otherwise, seem to rely on some supposed "magical" ability of a silly little sign to stop the bad guys in their tracks. Make it fair one way or the other; Let me have defensive weapons, or make darn sure the bad guys don't.


 
Many hospitals are doing it right or at least trying to.  There are forums and websites just geared toward hospital security just like EMS.

However, when it was discussed on this thread, members of this forum felt it violated their rights when they were also scanned along with their patient.   The issue of safety flies out the window sometimes when some yell about their rights.   Fortunately hospital Security Guards and LEOs usually aren't deterred by tantrums at the entrance any longer.  If they do deviate from their protocol and something happens, they know the consesquences for both themselves and those in the hospital.


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## rescuepoppy (Jul 23, 2009)

The point that everybody must understand is this. It does not matter how many security measures are in place a person wanting to slip a weapon in badly enough will usually find a way. The only thing a hospital or any other place can do is their best to keep that from happening.


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## Fir Na Au Saol (Jul 23, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Many hospitals are doing it right or at least trying to.  There are forums and websites just geared toward hospital security just like EMS.
> 
> However, when it was discussed on this thread, members of this forum felt it violated their rights when they were also scanned along with their patient.   The issue of safety flies out the window sometimes when some yell about their rights.   Fortunately hospital Security Guards and LEOs usually aren't deterred by tantrums at the entrance any longer.  If they do deviate from their protocol and something happens, they know the consequences for both themselves and those in the hospital.


I would not squawk about being checked as long as everybody was being checked. However, I would tend to think that certain people should not have to be checked if they're in uniform or can present appropriate credentials. 


(Playing devil's advocate here for purposes of discussion.)

On another note. What about all the "weapons" already in the ER? That seems to be a real blind spot with some people. ANYTHING can be a weapon if somebody wants to use it as such. IV stands, O2 tanks, various pieces of equipment, furniture, etc. I can kill you with a Beanie Baby if I can get it into your airway. It wouldn't be as efficient as bustin' a cap in yo @$$, but it would still kill you. WuLabsWuTecH mentions the "moment of temporary unrestraint". In such cases, the attacker will use whatever is at hand. There is a case of a man putting his wife in the hospital by beating her with a Chihuahua.(The dog lived).


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## Fir Na Au Saol (Jul 23, 2009)

*Bingo!*



rescuepoppy said:


> The point that everybody must understand is this. It does not matter how many security measures are in place a person wanting to slip a weapon in badly enough will usually find a way. The only thing a hospital or any other place can do is their best to keep that from happening.


And if they can't sneak one in, they can find something to use as a weapon already there. This goes right along with what I said in an earlier post. Someone who intends harm will ignore and circumvent the rules.


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## VentMedic (Jul 23, 2009)

Fir Na Au Saol said:


> On another note. What about all the "weapons" already in the ER? That seems to be a real blind spot with some people. ANYTHING can be a weapon if somebody wants to use it as such. IV stands, O2 tanks, various pieces of equipment, furniture, etc. I can kill you with a Beanie Baby if I can get it into your airway. It wouldn't be as efficient as bustin' a cap in yo @$$, but it would still kill you. WuLabsWuTecH mentions the "moment of temporary unrestraint". In such cases, the attacker will use whatever is at hand. There is a case of a man putting his wife in the hospital by beating her with a Chihuahua.(The dog lived).


 
Yes there are many weapons accessible but one may have to move to grap them thus giving others a warning.  Few will be as deadly as the gun.



> I would not squawk about being checked as long as everybody was being checked. However, I would tend to think that certain people should not have to be checked if they're in uniform or can present appropriate credentials.


 
Unfortunately not all of the assults have been from outsiders or the "typical" assailant.  Some are employees and a few have been LEOs and EMT(P)s.  I believe it was not too long ago in Alabama when a LEO entered an ICU and killed his RN girlfriend.  We've had several lovers' quarrels between EMT(P)s that have turned bad when they run into each other in the ED.  It is sad to see those in uniform in handcuffs but it happens.


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## Fir Na Au Saol (Jul 23, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Unfortunately not all of the assults have been from outsiders or the "typical" assailant.  Some are employees and a few have been* LEOs and EMT(P)s*.  I believe it was not too long ago in Alabama when a *LEO entered an ICU and killed his RN girlfriend. * We've had several lovers' quarrels between EMT(P)s that have turned bad when they run into each other in the ED.  It is sad to see those in uniform in handcuffs but it happens.


That brings up another point we're ALL human, even the cops. Pinning a badge on somebody does not turn them into a Jedi Knight. Incidents like this kind of put the lie to the idea that "only the police can be trusted with guns."


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## VentMedic (Jul 23, 2009)

Fir Na Au Saol said:


> That brings up another point we're ALL human, even the cops. Pinning a badge on somebody does not turn them into a Jedi Knight. Incidents like this kind of put the lie to the idea that "only the police can be trusted with guns."


 
No but some EMT(P)s also argue their patient is the exception and want the ORDER the LEO to allow them to pass without scanning. There is no way to tell if they made any attempt to disarm the patient. We get a large collection of weapons from patients that even the transporting EMT(P)s weren't aware of yet argued for a free pass. Sometimes the ego gets in the way of safety. The nerve of a mere Security Guard telling an EMT to stop for 10 seconds to have his patient scanned!!


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## Fir Na Au Saol (Jul 23, 2009)

*Truer words wuz never spoke...*



VentMedic said:


> Sometimes the ego gets in the way of safety.


That applies in the field too. And to many professions besides EMS. There is never going to be a perfect system until there are perfect humans. I doubt any of us will live to see THAT day.


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