# A quick one.....another COD one. sorry.



## mycrofft (Nov 29, 2008)

Man is apparently under the influence in public, becoming surly and aggressive. Cops arriove, he tries to take them on, they OC him and he just laughs. He is then Tased with a dart unit in the chest, arrested and taken to the jail for booking where he is put into a holding area for intoxicated arrestees during booking paperwork. Twenty minutes later he is found dead. The police did not beat him or choke him, no other arrestees were in the "tank", he was just slumped to the floor in a corner.
Theories?


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## Sasha (Nov 29, 2008)

mycrofft said:


> Man is apparently under the influence in public, becoming surly and aggressive. Cops arriove, he tries to take them on, they OC him and he just laughs. He is then Tased with a dart unit in the chest, arrested and taken to the jail for booking where he is put into a holding area for intoxicated arrestees during booking paperwork. Twenty minutes later he is found dead. The police did not beat him or choke him, no other arrestees were in the "tank", he was just slumped to the floor in a corner.
> Theories?



Hypoglycemia mimicking public intoxication leading to cardiac arrest?


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## traumateam1 (Nov 29, 2008)

*starts counting all the taser related deaths in Canada this year*

He was on something, so his heart was all funky.. then they shocked him, put his heart into over drive.. then his heart finally gave up in the cell.

Thats my story and Im sticking to it!


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## BLSBoy (Nov 30, 2008)

Tox screen shows......

Excited delirum, secondary to cocaine usage, coupled with Taser usage has shown to produce fatal rhythms. 

As far as I know, the pathophysiology is unknown.


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## mycrofft (Nov 30, 2008)

*PCP and crank-positive in the postmortem toxscreen..*

Most persons who shake off OC are high on something, and if they're aggressive it's likely to include crank or crack (more the former than the latter), and if it's crank, then maybe some PCP as well. 
Putting these guys into a prostraint chair can kill them, chaining them to the floor grate can kill them...but if you don't do something, they're going to kill someone else.
I've seen guys apparently on SOMETHING that make them euphoric, nt aggressive, and unaffected by OC spray. No idea, but they were almost all middle-aged SE Asian men. (Opium?).


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## jochi1543 (Dec 1, 2008)

Could be hypoglycemia.

Here they have medics (at least in the big cities) on duty who take vitals before people are dumped in jail, because people have died from hypoglycemia before since cops thought they were just drunk and violent.


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## rescuerich (Dec 2, 2008)

Here in uor small town we have EMTs who must check vitals after everytaze incident so police do not get charged when the person keels over in the "tank".


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## rescuerich (Dec 2, 2008)

Here in our small town we have EMTs who must check vitals after every taze incident so police do not get charged when the person keels over in the "tank".


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## boingo (Dec 3, 2008)

Smart cops.  When the perp wakes up dead, they just point to EMS and say "The EMT checked him out, said he was fine"....

We used to get called all the time to various stations to evaluate a prisoner so the cops could cover their a's, but no more.  I don't leave anyone in the cell unless they sign a witnessed refusal.  The cops sometimes get pissed, it ties up their resources babysitting at a hospital, but the days of clearing patients to the cops with a cursory assessment and exam are over.  They are covering theirs, I suggest you cover yours...transport!


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## Sasha (Dec 3, 2008)

One of the many reasons I don't like tazers and think they should be outlawed.


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## BLSBoy (Dec 3, 2008)

Sasha, talk to any LEO. They reduce the chances that a LEO will have to go "hands on" with a perp, and reduces the injury to LEOS. 

Yes, we do care about their safety, but the OUR safety is number one!


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## KEVD18 (Dec 3, 2008)

tazers are much better than the former alternative, which was either a nightsticking  or just cutting through all the bs and getting shot.


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## Sasha (Dec 3, 2008)

I don't like tazers, regardless. I think they are inhumane and a lot of cops are tazer happy. I saw someone get tazered the other day, LEOs didn't try anything they just shouted "TAZERTAZERTAZER" and shot.


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## mycrofft (Dec 3, 2008)

*Roger that KEVD18*

Quit often the appearance of the taser has the effect of a german shepherd on a leash. Trouble over.

Medical screening to get into accredited jails in California is quite stringent. I understand it takes two hours to process into LA County. Yes, ketoacidotics or just plain blunt head trauma pts used to die in holding cells. I can do a screening in about ten minutes including explaining how to get medical, dental or psychiatric attention, if they speak English. If not, fifteen, I use ATT intepreters. A couple have gotten past me due to MD's accepting them.


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## BLSBoy (Dec 3, 2008)

More inhumane then a beating, OC, or lead therapy?

I have been Tazed. It hurts like hell for the 5 seconds, and I didn't want to move for a couple minutes after. After that, I didn't have any side effects. 

I can gurantee you if he had beaten me, I would be sore for days or weeks after. 

Sure, some LEOs are Taze happy, or quick on the draw. Or it may appear that way. Let's not judge them until we have been in their place. Their job is much different then ours. Most people will leave FF/EMTs alone. Many more people will harm, or attempt to harm a LEO.


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## KEVD18 (Dec 3, 2008)

ive been oc'd, ive been beaten with a club. ive yet to be tazed, but its probably in the cards. ive not been shot and i hope to avoid that.

of all of the above, im pretty sure i'll take being tazed over the rest of the lot.


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## Sasha (Dec 3, 2008)

BLSBoy said:


> More inhumane then a beating, OC, or lead therapy?
> 
> I have been Tazed. It hurts like hell for the 5 seconds, and I didn't want to move for a couple minutes after. After that, I didn't have any side effects.
> 
> ...



Our uniforms are much like an LEOs, especially with the stupid badges our FTOs wear, they tend to get attacked a lot.

The situation which I was speaking was some guy who had cut in a line, and the police told him to leave, he didn't, so they pulled out their guns and "TAZERTAZERTAZER" zzzzt. He wasn't violent, loud, or threatning. He just said he didn't want to leave.


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## traumateam1 (Dec 5, 2008)

Sasha said:


> Our uniforms are much like an LEOs, especially with the stupid badges our FTOs wear, they tend to get attacked a lot.
> 
> The situation which I was speaking was some guy who had cut in a line, and the police told him to leave, he didn't, so they pulled out their guns and "TAZERTAZERTAZER" zzzzt. He wasn't violent, loud, or threatning. He just said he didn't want to leave.



Yeah, okay. One example.. sure cops are taze happy.. but we don't do nearly half the stuff they have to death with everyday. I would much rather taze a crack head than have to go physical with him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvlUcPmayPQ&feature=PlayList&p=4F7A24610392E76C&index=0

Wouldn't a tazer of been nice for this cop?

Anyways, I tried to find the original version.. where the cop is being interviewed, he said he tried to choke him out, he said that he used enough force that would of taken any "regular" person out, he also smashed his head into the guys nose and severely broke it.. he said he also kicked him in the groin harder than he had ever kicked anyone before. All of the things he did, didn't seem to have an effect. I bet he would of liked a taser for this one.


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## remote_medic (Dec 12, 2008)

Sasha said:


> One of the many reasons I don't like tazers and think they should be outlawed.



Would you rather they got shot? Or beaten with a baton/asp and maybe suffer a head injury?

Short version of my opinion on tazers is that in order to get tazed you must be doing something that deserves it. And if you are doing something that deserves getting tazed then the next step from the officer will be use of force, potentially deadly force.


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## Explorer127 (Jan 7, 2009)

I'm not going to comment on whether or not tasers should always be used, because I honestly don't know...

It probably was hypoglycemia, and the shock caused his heart to stop..

Can someone tell me what OC is?

and shouldn't they monitor people in jail?


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## Meursault (Jan 7, 2009)

OC is oleoresin capsicum, the active ingredient in pepper spray. GOOGLE is a search engine, a surprisingly good resource for acronyms one doesn't know.

I haven't been tased, OC'd, etc. yet, and I don't mind the idea of cops being armed with them. If you're worried about unnecessary use of force, tasers are far less dangerous and more consistently applied. On the other hand, you could argue that having an easy and apparently non-harmful way to subdue people predisposes cops to using it when it isn't necessary. I haven't seen any studies either way.


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## mycrofft (Jan 8, 2009)

*Oh, yeah, we monitor people in jail!!*

but we can't  monitor each and every arrestee every second when you are processing over 120 each 24hrs, each assessment takes fifteen minutes, the arresstes are acting out and drunk...and you have one or two nurses at a time to do it all.


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## Arkymedic (Jan 8, 2009)

I tend to agree with BLS Boy and think that excited delirium could be a good choice on this one...



mycrofft said:


> Man is apparently under the influence in public, becoming surly and aggressive. Cops arriove, he tries to take them on, they OC him and he just laughs. He is then Tased with a dart unit in the chest, arrested and taken to the jail for booking where he is put into a holding area for intoxicated arrestees during booking paperwork. Twenty minutes later he is found dead. The police did not beat him or choke him, no other arrestees were in the "tank", he was just slumped to the floor in a corner.
> Theories?


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## akflightmedic (Jan 8, 2009)

..............


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## akflightmedic (Jan 8, 2009)

Sasha said:


> One of the many reasons I don't like tazers and think they should be outlawed.




On the other side of that coin, how many lives have been saved or less lethal force used due to the existence of tasers?


(responded before reading page 2, my bad, didnt see it)


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## mycrofft (Jan 8, 2009)

*Anyone able to medically describe "excited delirium"?*

New one to me.


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## BLSBoy (Jan 8, 2009)

Those signs/symptoms typically associated with excited delirium are:

    * Paranoia
    * Hallucination
    * Incoherent speech or shouting
    * Incredible strength or endurance (typically noticed during attempts to restrain victim)
    * Hyperthermia (overheating)/profuse sweating (even in cold weather)

Excited delirium is a controversial term used to explain deaths of individuals in police custody, in which the person being arrested or restrained shows some combination of agitation, violent or bizarre behavior, demonstrating behavior, may be insensitivity to pain, elevated body temperature, or demonstrate increased strength. It has been listed as a cause of death by some medical examiners.


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## BossyCow (Jan 8, 2009)

I think the tasers are a double edged sword. Nice to have a non-lethal weapon but the believed safety of the tool may be linked to its overuse. The RCMP was called on the carpet regarding taser use with one MP actually inferring that relaxed standards for LEO physical requirements that had been adjusted to allow for more women and minority candidates were responsible for the increase in taser use. His opinion was that smaller, less physically strong officers would be more likely to turn to a taser to subdue a suspect than to attempt to subdue them physically.  Gotta wonder what that MP's position was on workplace injuries and employee safety!


http://micheladrien.blogspot.com/2008/09/rcmp-report-on-taser-usage.html


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