# So I want to get a gun



## DrParasite (Jan 11, 2012)

I know there a a couple avid gun people on here, so I figured I would ask here and see where the thread goes.

here are the rules:
1) this gun WILL NOT be used on an ambulance.
2) the gun will  have to be securable when not in use

primary use will be target shooting, in a range.  the girl wants to shoot it too.  more for pleasure than anything else.

both of us have shot before, but it's been years since I have fired any type of weapon (in the past have shot rifles, shotguns, semi-auto Uzi, etc)

questions I am looking for answers to:

how much would a handgun cost?
what type of handgun should I get?
what type of formal training (in firing, safe storage and maintenance)
what type of securing device should I get?


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## JPINFV (Jan 11, 2012)

DrParasite said:


> questions I am looking for answers to:
> 
> how much would a handgun cost?
> what type of handgun should I get?
> ...



1/2. Depends on the handgun, however I'm more of a shotgun person myself. 

3. If you don't feel trained in safe storage and handgun safety, take a course. In California, it's actually required for handguns. The reality is that safe firearm use is really "common sense" (treat all firearms as if they're loaded until verified they aren't (e.g. cleaning, etc), never point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy, never load a firearm until ready to use it, finger off the trigger until ready to fire, and know your target and what's beyond it).

Similarly, for storage, get a locking case. A safe is ideal, but reality is unless you have a serious amount of firearms and/or are planning on living someplace for a long time, a locking travel case works. 

For maintenance, either get someone to show you that is familiar with that firearm, or simply go through the manual. The manual will also cover what needs to be done (i.e. what needs to be oiled) before firing it for the first time. 

4. Personally, I'm partial for cable locks as they are used in a manner that precludes the ability to load a firearm when used correctly. However, use it with either a locking case or safe. Security in layers.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jan 11, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> 1/2. Depends on the handgun, however I'm more of a shotgun person myself.



My problem with that is that it is kinda hard to conceal a shotgun; unless you are into trench coats.

Springfield XD40 - Service Model; just my opinion.


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## JPINFV (Jan 11, 2012)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> My problem with that is that it is kinda hard to conceal a shotgun; unless you are into trench coats.
> 
> Springfield XD40 - Service Model; just my opinion.



My problem is that I currently live in LA County with my permanent address being my parent's house in San Diego county. As such, I have almost zero chance of actually acquiring a CCW permit. 

Also, open unloaded carry of long arms is still legal.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jan 11, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> Also, open unloaded carry of long arms is still legal.



True.  I forgot this.  Damn CA.  :banghead:


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## Nervegas (Jan 11, 2012)

I have a model 60 .38 special with the Hogue Bantam grips. Its only 5 shots, but the JHPs make big holes in things. I keep it loaded and holstered in the night stand with a speed reloader and flashlight next to it, no need for a gun lock, as A) I have no kids and B) the trigger pull is heavy enough that only a teen/adult could even fire the gun.


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## Akulahawk (Jan 11, 2012)

DrParasite said:


> I know there a a couple avid gun people on here, so I figured I would ask here and see where the thread goes.
> 
> here are the rules:
> 1) this gun WILL NOT be used on an ambulance.
> ...


Being that you're from New Jersey, that presents a bunch of different issues than some of the rest of us have to deal with.New Jersey has a permit system. If memory serves, or the purchase, acquisition and or keeping of pistols, and/or other firearms. It actually could be that no permit is required to have a weapon at the house. However, it could also be that you do need a permit for transport. You will need to check on that. You will probably be best served in terms of actual security of the weapon, by acquiring a small safe or some other lockbox type device that would make it more difficult for someone to gain access to the weapon without having to break something else open.

As to handguns, the cost varies dramatically. You can buy one that is perhaps a couple of hundred dollars or a couple of thousand dollars. This goes for both revolvers and pistols.

If you're looking for something purely for target practice, I would suggest something along the lines of a .22 LR, 38 special, 9 mm, or even a .357 revolver loaded with 38 special. 

As to actual firearms training, I would suggest contacting a local range and finding out from them what the process is to acquire and practice with a firearm in your state. Something else struck me while I was writing this, it is possible that New Jersey may have a law that states you must have a purchase permit in order to even handle a firearm. I'm in California, our laws can be very different from what you have in New Jersey.

There should be some fairly active Internet forums on the subject that pertain to your state. Some of the New York forums may have some people that are very knowledgeable about New Jersey law due to the proximity of the two states.


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## Akulahawk (Jan 11, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> 1/2. Depends on the handgun, however I'm more of a shotgun person myself.
> 
> 3. If you don't feel trained in safe storage and handgun safety, take a course. *In California, it's actually required for handguns*. The reality is that safe firearm use is really "common sense" (treat all firearms as if they're loaded until verified they aren't (e.g. cleaning, etc), never point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to destroy, never load a firearm until ready to use it, finger off the trigger until ready to fire, and know your target and what's beyond it).
> 
> ...


Believe it or not, you do not have to take a safety course in California for the purchase of a handgun. You have to have an HSC or an exemption to it in order to acquire a handgun, generally speaking. The HSC is simply a handgun safety certificate that you can get by paying a $25 fee and taking an exam (which most boneheads can pass), and a very easy functional test, which is basically how do you load and unload the weapon safely. There is no course that is required. There are a bunch of exemptions to the HSC, I have two of them. Those exemptions are listed in the Penal Code, relatively easy to find, and at least one or two of them are good for life.

Cable locks work well a cable lock does not satisfy California's requirement for safe storage of a firearm in residences where children might be reasonably expected to be able to access the firearm and use it in a dangerous manner. Should a child find a weapon out in the open, in a residence, a loaded and use it defensively, the safe storage law does not apply. If you do not normally expect to have children in your residence, you do not have to secure your arms at all. There would be no violation of the law in that instance.


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## Akulahawk (Jan 11, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> My problem is that I currently live in LA County with my permanent address being my parent's house in San Diego county. As such, I have almost zero chance of actually acquiring a CCW permit.
> 
> Also, open unloaded carry of long arms is still legal.



Unfortunately for you JP, both of your addresses belong to some very restrictive counties. Give this issue some time, perhaps a year or two, and I think you'll find that the situation in either county will change for the better. Your chances of acquiring a CCW would improve slightly if you were to move to Orange County, however their Sheriff is a lot more restrictive than the previous Sheriff was. I have quite a few friends in Orange County that have had to deal with the transition from one Sheriff to another, most of them lost their licenses to carry simply because the new Sheriff revoked them.

Perhaps once you get your D.O., you can move your official residence to a county that issues if any of the lawsuits aren't decided yet. There are quite a few of them that have been filed in multiple counties across the state that deal with the CCW issue specifically.


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## Akulahawk (Jan 11, 2012)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> My problem with that is that it is kinda hard to conceal a shotgun; unless you are into trench coats.
> 
> Springfield XD40 - Service Model; just my opinion.



The Springfield XD series are pretty good, their only flaw is that they can be locked up relatively easily if you know how to do it. Unlocking it would require a trip to a gunsmith or more possibly having to be sent back to Springfield.
Yes I do know I'm talking about in this matter. A number of my friends have managed to do it. The best way to avoid the problem is to simply make sure that the grip safety is completely depressed when manipulating the slide. An aftermarket grip safety is available, but it does not completely fix the problem. It simply makes the problem a lot more difficult to create.

Probably the most interesting thing about the XD series is that the original HS-2000 handgun that it is directly descended from (same gun) is designed to use just about any magazine that you find  commonly in Croatia. In particular the Beretta 92 FS magazines can be very easily modified to work with the XD.


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## shfd739 (Jan 11, 2012)

Akulahawk said:


> The Springfield XD series are pretty good, their only flaw is that they can be locked up relatively easily if you know how to do it. Unlocking it would require a trip to a gunsmith or more possibly having to be sent back to Springfield.
> Yes I do know I'm talking about in this matter. A number of my friends have managed to do it. The best way to avoid the problem is to simply make sure that the grip safety is completely depressed when manipulating the slide. An aftermarket grip safety is available, but it does not completely fix the problem. It simply makes the problem a lot more difficult to create.
> 
> Probably the most interesting thing about the XD series is that the original HS-2000 handgun that it is directly descended from (same gun) is designed to use just about any magazine that you find  commonly in Croatia. In particular the Beretta 92 FS magazines can be very easily modified to work with the XD.



I'll second the Springfield XDs. My wife has one and loves it. 

Being in EMS gets you access to Glock's public safety discount which makes the prices cheap. If you don't mind a Glock.


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## Backwoods (Jan 11, 2012)

DrParasite said:


> how much would a handgun cost?
> what type of handgun should I get?
> what type of formal training (in firing, safe storage and maintenance)
> what type of securing device should I get?



1. Depends on what model, where you get it from, and if its new or used
2. Id recommend any 1911-style pistol for home defense, and a Ruger Mark III for target shooting...JMO
3. Gun safety course
4. Id recommend something similar to this:http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shoo...=SBC;MMcat104792580;cat104730480;cat104369580


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## Hockey (Jan 11, 2012)

Glock 19.

Every American should own a Glock 19.


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## medic417 (Jan 11, 2012)

Not everyone should own a gun. If you do decide to get one there is no way for any of us to tell you what is best for you. After getting extensive education about firearms you need to handle multiple different ones to find what this you properly. There is a good chance your better half will feel  better with a different one so expect to buy 2. Firearms are not toys or status symbols, only buy if you are serious  about using it properly and safely


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## JPINFV (Jan 11, 2012)

Akulahawk said:


> Believe it or not, you do not have to take a safety course in California for the purchase of a handgun. You have to have an HSC or an exemption to it in order to acquire a handgun, generally speaking. The HSC is simply a handgun safety certificate that you can get by paying a $25 fee and taking an exam (which most boneheads can pass), and a very easy functional test, which is basically how do you load and unload the weapon safely. There is no course that is required. There are a bunch of exemptions to the HSC, I have two of them. Those exemptions are listed in the Penal Code, relatively easy to find, and at least one or two of them are good for life.
> 
> Cable locks work well a cable lock does not satisfy California's requirement for safe storage of a firearm in residences where children might be reasonably expected to be able to access the firearm and use it in a dangerous manner. Should a child find a weapon out in the open, in a residence, a loaded and use it defensively, the safe storage law does not apply. If you do not normally expect to have children in your residence, you do not have to secure your arms at all. There would be no violation of the law in that instance.


Ah, I was under impression that the HSC actually required a course. Of course while California has a bunch of requirements to own a handgun (HSC, registration, etc), long guns are relatively unregulated in comparison outside of the 'evil black rifle' (assault weapon) ban. 

As far as cable locks, when I went in and picked up the supplies I needed to bring my shotgun up from my parent's house (lock, case, cleaning supplies, etc) I was told at Turners Outdoor that it was the trigger locks that were having issues being certified in CA.


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## JPINFV (Jan 11, 2012)

medic417 said:


> Firearms are not toys or status symbols, only buy if you are serious  about using it properly and safely



My shotgun is primarily a toy. My main, and pretty much only use, is taking it down to the range and shooting orange clay discs out of the air for my enjoyment. Hence, it is a toy. A dangerous toy that needs to be used carefully? Definitely. A dangerous toy that needs to be secured when not in use? Yes. However a toy none the less. 

Just because a firearm is used as a toy for enjoyment does not relive the operator from safe use, just like it doesn't relieve an operator of a motor vehicle from driving his or her car in a safe manner or someone playing baseball make sure they aren't going to smack someone else up alongside the head with a baseball bat.


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## rmabrey (Jan 11, 2012)

You've already gotten several answers on the type of handgun you should get (didn't read replies but a member of enough gun forums to know how this went). 

The most simple and straight forward answer I can give you is get what fits your hand. This is even more challenging since there will be two of you using it. Get out and fondle as many guns as you can.

Only when you find one or more that fits will you have a price range. Your looking at anywhere from a couple hundred (hi point) to a few thousand (nighthawk custom (my dream gun)). 

Also I did see the Glock discount mentioned. As of mid last year EMS was no longer on the discount list. I have spoken to a couple Glock reps that said it is still honored. However don't be surprised if a gun shop gives you grief. Better to order direct from a rep IMO.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jan 11, 2012)

rmabrey said:


> The most simple and straight forward answer I can give you is get what fits your hand. This is even more challenging since there will be two of you using it. Get out and fondle as many guns as you can.
> 
> Only when you find one or more that fits will you have a price range



Agreed.  Everyone tells me "glock!"  But they have never felt right.  Althought being similar in many respects, there is enough difference in the feel of the XD to be right for me.  Besides, the act of getting out and fondleing guns can't be beat... I am always up for a good fondle...


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## mycrofft (Jan 11, 2012)

Just target shooting?
Why not emulate Olympic shooting and use what they do? They start with thirty meter air rifles, and up. Of course, the real deal for that is very expensive, but you have a standard to meet and compete against then.

Me, if I was starting back up, I'd get a good .22 bolt or semi-auto rifle. Cheap(er), light, ammo not as expensive nor as big to store or lug, and if you change your mind or it is lost/stolen, not a big a deal to quit or restart. If you want to expand into plinking varmints, fine. The exercise is on control, not caliber.

If you want to put bigger holes in stuff with a handgun, I'm prejudiced towards the M-9 Beretta 9mm. Not much recoil, easy to clean and fairly forgiving. Again, if just for marksmanship, then the lighter the caliber the easier and less expensive it is all around, just do't buy junk.

Can't restrain myself: The Blunderbuss!
M-79 with "beehive" flechette rounds.


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## bigbaldguy (Jan 11, 2012)

One word "crossbow".


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## FourLoko (Jan 11, 2012)

Hockey said:


> Glock 19.
> 
> Every American should own a Glock 19.



It's 17, get it right.

http://us.glock.com/products/sector/first-time-buyer


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## JPINFV (Jan 11, 2012)

bigbaldguy said:


> One word "crossbow".















Agrees...


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## mycrofft (Jan 11, 2012)

No, this Glock goes to 19. It's the Spinal Tap Special.


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## Hockey (Jan 11, 2012)

FourLoko said:


> It's 17, get it right.
> 
> http://us.glock.com/products/sector/first-time-buyer




Full size turns some women off.  The 19 fits in my hands.  And all 8 of my womens hands.  It's a crowd pleaser


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## dixie_flatline (Jan 11, 2012)

It's a bit more money but I'd recommend the H&K USP Compact or the Sig 229 - either one in 9mm or .40 S&W.


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## EMSLaw (Jan 11, 2012)

Akulahawk said:


> Being that you're from New Jersey, that presents a bunch of different issues than some of the rest of us have to deal with.New Jersey has a permit system. If memory serves, or the purchase, acquisition and or keeping of pistols, and/or other firearms. It actually could be that no permit is required to have a weapon at the house. However, it could also be that you do need a permit for transport. You will need to check on that. You will probably be best served in terms of actual security of the weapon, by acquiring a small safe or some other lockbox type device that would make it more difficult for someone to gain access to the weapon without having to break something else open.



In order to purchase a handgun in New Jersey, you require two things.  One is a Firearms Purchaser ID card.  This permits you to buy as many long guns as you like, as well as handgun ammunition.  In addition, you must obtain a permit to purchase a handgun.  The two can be applied for at the same time, and you can get multiple purchase permits at the same time, which is more cost effective, but they're also only good for a relatively short time (30 days, I believe, with a second 30 day extension available from the local police).  While the move to livescan fingerprinting may have shortened time periods, it was not uncommon for the permit process to take over six months, despite State law requiring it to be completed in thirty days.  

The entire process is handled through your local police department, or the state police if you live in a place with no local police or are from out of state.  The forms are available on the State Police website.  Indeed, they answer a lot of questions about firearms laws, which are very restrictive in our great state.

This is just to purchase the firearm, which means you'll be restricted to having it in he home, or carrying it cased and unloaded directly to and from the place where you'll be target shooting it.  If you want a carry permit, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish, as they say, and while I could go on and on about it (I used to be involved in that area from the government side), the bottom line is that they don't give them out, unless you work as an armored car guard or happen to be a retired policeman.  

If you have any specific questions, shoot me a PM and I can at least point you in the right direction.


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## Veneficus (Jan 11, 2012)

I think the .357 sig is the perfect round for semi-auto pistols.

In Glock, Sig Saur, or H/K at your personal discretion.


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## Akulahawk (Jan 12, 2012)

EMSLaw said:


> In order to purchase a handgun in New Jersey, you require two things.  One is a Firearms Purchaser ID card.  This permits you to buy as many long guns as you like, as well as handgun ammunition.  In addition, you must obtain a permit to purchase a handgun.  The two can be applied for at the same time, and you can get multiple purchase permits at the same time, which is more cost effective, but they're also only good for a relatively short time (30 days, I believe, with a second 30 day extension available from the local police).  While the move to livescan fingerprinting may have shortened time periods, it was not uncommon for the permit process to take over six months, despite State law requiring it to be completed in thirty days.
> 
> The entire process is handled through your local police department, or the state police if you live in a place with no local police or are from out of state.  The forms are available on the State Police website.  Indeed, they answer a lot of questions about firearms laws, which are very restrictive in our great state.
> 
> ...


It's been quite a while since I have reviewed New Jersey's laws, the process you laid out seems to be the correct choice or process for your state. I do know for sure that a carry permit for the state of New Jersey is very much a completely different issue, and much harder to get, then a permit to acquire.

I'm certainly glad that I live in California where the process is less arduous.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jan 12, 2012)

Akulahawk said:


> I'm certainly glad that I live in California where the process is less arduous.



But from a "right to carry" perspective, wouldn't you prefer to live in Arizona or Alaska?


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## Akulahawk (Jan 12, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> Ah, I was under impression that the HSC actually required a course. Of course while California has a bunch of requirements to own a handgun (HSC, registration, etc), long guns are relatively unregulated in comparison outside of the 'evil black rifle' (assault weapon) ban.
> 
> As far as cable locks, when I went in and picked up the supplies I needed to bring my shotgun up from my parent's house (lock, case, cleaning supplies, etc) I was told at Turners Outdoor that it was the trigger locks that were having issues being certified in CA.


Actually, JP, the HSC is essentially a requirement to purchase, not to own. Once your HSC expires you still retain the legal right to own firearms that you purchased. As far as registration is concerned, it is actually not required to register your pistol, if you acquired it prior to a certain date in the 1990s. Afterwards, the legislature required that all handgun transfers happened via firearms dealer and go through the DROS process, and therefore are registered to a particular individual. As long as everything goes according to design, your information shows up in the AFS system. What is interesting about the cable lock requirement is that while it is required to be sold or provided to the buyer of a handgun at the time of transfer, it does not meet safe storage requirements. Something else that is interesting to note is that the trigger lock/cable lock requirement used to be met by a safe affidavit. This affidavit, while being perfectly fine under California law, is no longer acceptable under Federal Law simply because the BATFE has not made the appropriate regulations to implement the safe affidavit. This only applies to handguns, not long guns.

California's assault weapon ban has some problems, and outside of certain specific named weapons (specific make specific model), with a little attention to detail regarding removable/detachable magazines, you can build almost anything you want. In any event, the assault weapons ban is going to face some serious challenge in the courts precisely because it is arbitrary and capricious. When the assault weapon ban was originally passed, the media and everyone else made it seem like what was going to be banned was fully automatic firearms. Those have been regulated separately for quite a long time. If you really want to know something fun, full auto weapons are legal to own in California, if you have the correct permit. If you do not have the permit, and you on a full auto weapon in California, the crime you commit is essentially the unlicensed possession of a full auto firearm. I probably know more about this particular subject than I should.:glare:


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## Akulahawk (Jan 12, 2012)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> But from a "right to carry" perspective, wouldn't you prefer to live in Arizona or Alaska?


Actually, from a right to carry perspective, if memory serves, there are actually four states that have gone to constitutional carry: Alaska,Arizona, Wyoming, and Vermont. A friend of mine lives in Alaska and loves it. I know some people that live in Arizona, but they're not friends of mine, but apparently they like it. Most other states have a shall issue license system, some of them are simply a license to carry which allows the licensee to choose open or concealed.

California is kind of interesting in that once you have a CCW, there are very few places you cannot carry. Apparently, having a CCW is also one of the exceptions to the unloaded openly carry law that just took effect out here.


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## JPINFV (Jan 12, 2012)

Akulahawk said:


> California is kind of interesting in that once you have a CCW, there are very few places you cannot carry. Apparently, having a CCW is also one of the exceptions to the unloaded openly carry law that just took effect out here.




...but if I could CCW, why the hell would I want to unloaded open carry?


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## Akulahawk (Jan 12, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> ...but if I could CCW, why the hell would I want to unloaded open carry?


JP, exactly! It is however apparently one of the exceptions… If I can carry loaded, why would I carry an unloaded paperweight? One of the really strange things about the new law is that it basically restricts unloaded open carry to the same locations where one can engage in loaded open carry activity. In that instance, why would you carry unloaded when you can simply carry loaded?


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## Devilz311 (Jan 12, 2012)

EMSLaw said:


> .  The two can be applied for at the same time, and you can get multiple purchase permits at the same time, which is more cost effective, but they're also only good for a relatively short time (30 days, I believe, with a second 30 day extension available from the local police).  While the move to livescan fingerprinting may have shortened time periods, it was not uncommon for the permit process to take over six months, despite State law requiring it to be completed in thirty days.



Unless it recently changed, the permits are good for 90 days, with another 90 days if an extensions is filed.  Technically, it would be possible to apply for 6 permits at once, as the One-Gun-a-Month law applies.


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## mycrofft (Jan 12, 2012)

5=4. When I read the words "enjoy" or "love" in conjunction with firearms, I'm outta here. Like saying you're in love with your stapler or toilet plunger.
That is, unless you anticipate being attacked on the street?
Anyway, have fun.


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## tssemt2010 (Jan 12, 2012)

i own a full size beretta 9mm, and my dad just purchased an H&K 9mm and we bought him a springfield xdm .40.all of them are great guns, im a fan of the beretta but thats what ive been shooting longest and i am most accurate with


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## mycrofft (Jan 12, 2012)

SIDEBAR: recent episode of TV show "Body of Evidence" has a M-9 type administering "Beretta Bite" which yields a DNA sample!


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## exodus (Jan 13, 2012)

Good deal - http://www.gtdist.com/ProductDetail.aspx?PartNumber=UG-GLOCK22G2


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## FourLoko (Jan 13, 2012)

mycrofft said:


> 5=4. When I read the words "enjoy" or "love" in conjunction with firearms, I'm outta here. Like saying you're in love with your stapler or toilet plunger.
> That is, unless you anticipate being attacked on the street?
> Anyway, have fun.



too bad you don't get it

I love my car too


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## mycrofft (Jan 13, 2012)

To each his own. 
(Doesn't anyone read the line under my moniker?)


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## JPINFV (Jan 13, 2012)

mycrofft said:


> 5=4. When I read the words "enjoy" or "love" in conjunction with firearms, I'm outta here. Like saying you're in love with your stapler or toilet plunger.
> That is, unless you anticipate being attacked on the street?
> Anyway, have fun.




What about if the words "love" or "enjoy" were applied to something else, like say a sports car?


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## mycrofft (Jan 13, 2012)

As Cruise says on "LIFE": "I am not attached to this car".


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## JPINFV (Jan 13, 2012)

mycrofft said:


> As Cruise says on "LIFE": "I am not attached to this car".



I just started rewatching the second season today. How did that show ever go off the air?


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## mycrofft (Jan 13, 2012)

They told them not to come in anymore and leased out their offices?


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## Outbac1 (Jan 14, 2012)

Long story short check out and join a local gun club. They may have club guns you can use and most likely offer training. After you get to use a number of different guns you'll have a better idea of what you want. Strongly consider getting a 22lr such as a Ruger MKII, Hi Standard etc. Always good used ones around. Easy to shoot, ammo is cheap so you can afford to shoot it. The more you shoot the better you will get. 
 Guns should be stored unloaded and locked up at a minimum. Check your local laws.
Want a gun for self defense etc.? Join a club, get training etc.....


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## hogwiley (Jan 14, 2012)

If its strictly for target shooting, get a .22 LR, like a ruger mark III. The gun is cheap, ammo will be cheap, and the gun will be good for learning the fundamentals on. Women wont have any difficulty shooting it either.

If the gun is also going to double as a self defense tool, then get something in 9mm. Go to a gun store that has a good selection, and see what fits your hand well. How the gun feels, how the trigger pull feels(one of the most important things for shooting accurately), and how much you are looking to spend would dictate which exact gun is for you.  Be wary of really cheap guns, like HI point, they arent going to be durable, accurate, or reliable. 

A beretta 92fs is a reliable, accurate and safe gun. (although grip might be too large for women). They can be found for under 600 I think. Its also the handgun the US military uses, which is where I learned to shoot it. 

Im not a big fan of concealed carry permits myself. Having a gun with you turns any confrontation into a potentially deadly one. Think of how many violent confrontations you faced as a paramedic, and how you survived them all, then consider how it would have went if the person assaulting or threatening you had grabbed a gun you were carrying, and how that would have ended. Or if you had drawn on them first, what if they dont back away, you gonna shoot em? That opens up a whole other can of legal worms.


Thats my take on it.


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## ffemt8978 (Jan 14, 2012)

hogwiley said:


> Im not a big fan of concealed carry permits myself. Having a gun with you turns any confrontation into a potentially deadly one. Think of how many violent confrontations you faced as a paramedic, and how you survived them all, then consider how it would have went if the person assaulting or threatening you had grabbed a gun you were carrying, and how that would have ended. Or if you had drawn on them first, what if they dont back away, you gonna shoot em? That opens up a whole other can of legal worms.
> 
> 
> Thats my take on it.


For the most part, I agree with the first two paragraphs of your post.  It's the last two that I want to comment on.  My comments are in blue



hogwiley said:


> Im not a big fan of concealed carry permits myself. No issues there.  It is an individual choice.
> 
> Having a gun with you turns any confrontation into a potentially deadly one. Any confrontation is a potentially deadly one, regardless of whether or not a person is carrying a firearm.
> 
> ...


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jan 14, 2012)

ffemt8978 said:


> for the most part, i agree with the first two paragraphs of your post.  It's the last two that i want to comment on.  My comments are in blue
> 
> and that's mine.



plus one...


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## hogwiley (Jan 15, 2012)

ffemt8978 





> Most people that I know that carry concealed seem to make an extra effort to avoid any type of confrontation at all.



Thats a good thing, although this extra effort could also be made without a handgun. 



> Concealed carry means concealed. How is the person you are in a confrontation with going to even know to take your gun if they don't know you have one in the first place?



Because if you have a gun, any sort of physical contact can result in someone discovering your gun. A beligerent drunk bear hugs you. Without a gun thats an annoying situation, WITH a gun it becomes a life threatening situation. 



> But let's run another scenario here - what do you do if the person "assaulting or threatening you had grabbed a gun THEY were carrying"?



If they have a gun, chances are they would have already had it out before attempting to rob you or whatever. In that situation, trying to be quick draw mcgraw is probably MORE likely to get you killed than simply giving them your wallet or car keys. 

Then there is the problem of law enforcement coming across you with a gun drawn, which could very well result in you getting shot by a nervous cop. Plus the legal issues I mentioned. I personally would probably rather risk death(or more likely a serious butt kicking) than spend life in prison, but thats me.

Finally, it just seems like a big hassle. BECAUSE you have to be extra careful and continually conscious of where you can and cant go and ensuring that the gun is concealed at all times. Not to mention having a gun jabbing into your side and pulling one side of your pants down seems like it would be pretty uncomfortable after a while.

Im not trying to judge people who carry a gun. I know a couple people I trust and admire who do it. I just disagree with them. (one of them uses his CCW mainly to protect against bears when hes out walking and doesnt want to open carry, which I can understand).


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## JPINFV (Jan 15, 2012)

I'm more concerned about the police deciding to stay at the doughnut store than the police shooting me because I have a firearm. See. Warren v District of Columbia.


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## ffemt8978 (Jan 15, 2012)

hogwiley said:


> I personally would probably rather risk death(or more likely a serious butt kicking) than spend life in prison, but thats me.



:unsure:


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## Hockey (Jan 15, 2012)

hogwiley said:


> Then there is the problem of law enforcement coming across you with a gun drawn, which could very well result in you getting shot by a nervous cop. Plus the legal issues I mentioned.* I personally would probably rather risk death(or more likely a serious butt kicking) than spend life in prison, but thats me.*




Wat?


I have a family I go home to.  Every day.  On duty or off duty.  Sorry you feel your life isn't important





> Because if you have a gun, any sort of physical contact can result in someone discovering your gun. A beligerent drunk bear hugs you. Without a gun thats an annoying situation, WITH a gun it becomes a life threatening situation.



Excuses all the anti-gunners use.  I've been hugged by drunks, and involved in small little scraps.  Guess what, gun never came out or was discovered.  

It's called situational awareness



> Finally, it just seems like a big hassle. BECAUSE you have to be extra careful and continually conscious of where you can and cant go and ensuring that the gun is concealed at all times. Not to mention having a gun jabbing into your side and pulling one side of your pants down seems like it would be pretty uncomfortable after a while.



It's not a big hassle.  

I don't always think "oh I can't carry here".  I already know where I can and cannot carry.  I do not look for signs saying a business doesn't want me to carry.  Concealed means concealed.  And here in Michigan, signs have no legal merit

Jabbing into my side, pulling one side of pants down?  You know, I have that problem every now and then.  But honestly, 98% of the time, I never even think of it there.  Get a good belt, and even pants.  Good holster and you'll never even feel it there.


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## JPINFV (Jan 15, 2012)

I would accept the argument that death is preferable to life PMITA prison. However, even the San Francisco BART officer that basically executed a guy on video (he thought he pulled his taser when he pulled his service pistol and shot the guy at point blank range in the back) only got 2 years for involuntary man slaughter and only served about 1 year due to good behavior. So even killers eventually get out of jail.


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## Akulahawk (Jan 15, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> I would accept the argument that death is preferable to life PMITA prison. However, even the San Francisco BART officer that basically executed a guy on video (he thought he pulled his taser when he pulled his service pistol and shot the guy at point blank range in the back) only got 2 years for involuntary man slaughter and only served about 1 year due to good behavior. So even killers eventually get out of jail.


Had a non-LE shot the same guy, in the same manner, and used the same defense (and actually did have a taser at the time) that person would have been prosecuted for Murder, and probably would have been convicted, and be serving 25-to-life.


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## Akulahawk (Jan 15, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> I'm more concerned about the police deciding to stay at the doughnut store than the police shooting me because I have a firearm. See. Warren v District of Columbia.


That and other decisions continue to prove the point that Law Enforcement is only required to protect society as a whole, not a specific person, unless police protection is specifically extended to that person. Thus, someone can lock all the doors to a school building with lots of students inside, start shooting, the police can surround the building to prevent the shooter's escape and everyone inside can be ultimately executed by the shooter, and Law Enforcement can't be held accountable because they're preventing escape, and therefore, danger to the rest of the community. Once LE has established a perimeter and they feel comfortable going in, they may do so... but they don't have to.


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## JPINFV (Jan 15, 2012)

Akulahawk said:


> Had a non-LE shot the same guy, in the same manner, and used the same defense (and actually did have a taser at the time) that person would have been prosecuted for Murder, and probably would have been convicted, and be serving 25-to-life.



I disagree. There probably would have been the firearm enhancement, which would have added 5 years (2.5 after good behavior). At most it would have been voluntary manslaughter (11 years, so 16 after the firearm enhancement, which brings the total down to 8 years with good behavior) with the difference being determined by the legitimacy of the citizen's arrest. The difference between manslaughter and murder being the presence of malice. I'm normally not one to protect cops behaving badly, but the charge against Mehserle of second degree murder was absurd from the very beginning. 

PS. I'm pretty sure that the firearms enhancement is 5 years, but it may be 7.


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## Akulahawk (Jan 15, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> I disagree. There probably would have been the firearm enhancement, which would have added 5 years (2.5 after good behavior). At most it would have been voluntary manslaughter (11 years, so 16 after the firearm enhancement, which brings the total down to 8 years with good behavior) with the difference being determined by the legitimacy of the citizen's arrest. The difference between manslaughter and murder being the presence of malice. I'm normally not one to protect cops behaving badly, but the charge against Mehserle of second degree murder was absurd from the very beginning.
> 
> PS. I'm pretty sure that the firearms enhancement is 5 years, but it may be 7.


Here's where things go sideways: unless it's caught on camera w/ audio where it's clearly heard that the person intends to taze, it's going to look as if the shooter _intended_ to shoot a proned-out person in the back, who doesn't have any further ability to cause GBI to the shooter because the shooter is holding the person in the prone position. I'm not claiming they'd have a successful go at 1st Degree Murder, but 2nd wouldn't be all that difficult... What got Mehserle out of the M2 conviction was the presence of witnesses and video that recorded his verbalization of intent to taze, not shoot. That further knocked down the conviction down to invol. manslaughter because he _clearly_ didn't intend malice, but simply grabbed the wrong instrument instead, the application of which resulted in death.


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## Drewwoods (Jan 16, 2012)

I personally carry a Springfield GI-micro 1911.  It's the best gun I have ever owned.   Not the best for target shooting because it only has a 3" barrel, but is perfect for CC. 

Other than 1911s,  I highly recommend glocks, and Springfield XD.


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## Bullets (Jan 16, 2012)

Doc, your more then welcome to PM me, ive been a gun owner in NJ for some time and hold multiple permits.

handguns can range in cost based on model and features. A new Glock 17 runs about 500 before the Public Safety Discount. i like the glocks, and for a first time user the 9mm is not so much of a round to have prohibitive recoil or handling issues. My girl shoots it no problem, shes 5'5 115lbs. If you prefer something with a little more mustard you might consider the glock chambered in .40s&w, which is a standard police round. If your a history buff, or just like american, you cant go wrong with a Colt 1911A1 .45. Its got a little more kick but its a beautiful american firearm that will last.

I recommend Glock because it is so prolific it is easy to find parts, mods, accessories and repair techs.

I like the colt because it is a simple mechanism and you can do some work yourself if you feel comfortable. 

Go to a pistol range that allows you to rent firearms and try them out. Shore Shot in Lakewood gives public safety a discount, they are very willing to guide you and provide advice. 


IF your going to use it for home defense, i would recommend a shotgun, something small, i keep a Serbu super shorty under my bed, has 3+1 pump action, the foregrip folds down if you like the vertical. with a little work you can slamfire it. It is manufactured without a stock so it is considered a smoothbore handgun, so it only requires $5 tax stamp and registration as  AOW(Any other Weapon) with the BATFE


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