# Shockable Manikins!



## enjoynz (Nov 22, 2007)

Hi All

I was wondering if anyone knows what price range US$$ they are and 
which sites are best to start looking for one. Is there any EMS stores that selling 2nd hand ones? I'd like to obtain one for our Station to practice on, but their are about $25000+ new here. 

Cheers Enjoynz


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## Ridryder911 (Nov 22, 2007)

Try Ebay, sometimes they have used ones. New ones here are about the same price range. 

Personally, I no longer allow "real" electricity in the classroom setting. Since we have not used the  "paddles" for about 15 years, I see no need in placing electricty through a mannequin through patches. We only have two medics that have ever shocked with defib paddles , the other all have been hands free. 

R/r 911


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## Markhk (Nov 22, 2007)

The ones that cost $25,000+ are usually the human patient simulators, which have a lot more bells and whistles than a manikin you can simply shock. You should look for "ALS Skill Trainers" or "ALS Task Trainers" section. Here are some in the cheaper range (usually $2500-$4000): 

http://www.simulaids.com/080.htm

http://www.simulaids.com/LF03955U.htm

http://www.laerdal.com/document.asp?subnodeid=1850971

http://www.laerdal.com/document.asp?subnodeid=24272812

Alternatively, you could just buy a rhythm generator that you are capable of defibrillating. 

Like getting this:
http://www.simulaids.com/102.htm
and
http://www.simulaids.com/z08-10.htm

I really agree that actual defibrillation energy should be avoided in training settings. In one of my classes the PALS instructor insisted that I could shock the plastic manikin that did not have the defibrillator attachment.


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## SwissEMT (Nov 22, 2007)

I don't understand why using live defibrillators in training isn't a good idea. Does it not make sense to develop the respect and caution necessary to employ defibs in a controlled setting first? I don't know about you, but I think that allowing students to develop the necessary respect and awareness concerning electrical therapy is essential to training a good, safe provider. If these people don't get entrusted with such a thing in a training setting, why should they be allowed to use it out in the hectic, stressful environment of a call?


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## Ridryder911 (Nov 23, 2007)

How does actually allowing someone to shock at 10 joules on brass buttons on a mannequin chest, make a difference? Especially, when placing "pads" on the chest, and clearing? Waste of time and money...for purchasing device, when not needed. Personally, the only paddles I have seen is in training areas. None of the EMS or hospitals uses them anymore in my region for the past decade. The only reason to teach with electrical therapy was for proper weight distribution placed upon paddles and safety of clearing. In which, now can be placed without any real electric.  

Much more emphasis on the procedure of making sure of understanding when to shock, as much as how to shock. Pretty simple procedure, its even listed as 1, 2, & 3 on all defibs. Clear from head to toe.. again, since pads are now used, it is very simplistic procedure anyone could perform if taught. 

Bringing in undue risks to the classroom is asking for trouble. Yes, they should be responsible, then yet again, we are discussing EMT students. 

R/r 911


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## enjoynz (Nov 23, 2007)

SwissEMT said:


> I don't understand why using live defibrillators in training isn't a good idea. Does it not make sense to develop the respect and caution necessary to employ defibs in a controlled setting first? I don't know about you, but I think that allowing students to develop the necessary respect and awareness concerning electrical therapy is essential to training a good, safe provider. If these people don't get entrusted with such a thing in a training setting, why should they be allowed to use it out in the hectic, stressful environment of a call?



I have to agree with you Summit. We were taught to respect the AED in our 
Prehospital Emergency Care Training Course. The students were all very aware of the dangers when delivering a shock. It is cemented in the back of my mind, no matter how much the adrenaline is running at a cardiac arrest. 

Thanks for all the replies!
We don't use paddles here either.

Cheers Enjoynz


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## stonez (Nov 23, 2007)

Here is South Africa we still use paddles on most of our ambulance and in our ERs.


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## bstone (Nov 23, 2007)

When in Intermediate school we learned on paddles. 200, 300 and then 360.


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## SwissEMT (Nov 23, 2007)

Ridryder911 said:


> Bringing in undue risks to the classroom is asking for trouble. Yes, they should be responsible, then yet again, we are discussing EMT students.
> 
> R/r 911



Well these are risks that these students will inevitably face in the streets as providers. Though I agree with you that EMT students do often lack the maturity expected of them, I believe that we can only try to instill them with it by showing them the weight of the responsibilities which they are entrusted with. Having worked with inner-city kids in NYC, I can tell you that I had GREAT results and improvements in their academic performance when I entrusted them with MORE, not fewer responsibilities of importance. Though my instructional experience there was not medical, the same pedagogical concept applies. 
The units which are used at Northeastern Univ. accept 360JM/200JB as well as pacing loads. This has undoubtedly has helped students as it has added a level a realism which would not be possible otherwise.


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## KEVD18 (Nov 23, 2007)

still think it would have been fun to shock that pizza box....


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## Airwaygoddess (Nov 23, 2007)

CLEAR!!!


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## Ridryder911 (Nov 23, 2007)

I believe if we have to use "real" electricity in simulation, to make one fully understand the full potential danger, then we obviously have a problem much more than we realize. Even children should be taught and understand the dangers of electrical devices. I believe any mature person, that understands dangers of electricity without having being exposed to it. Then again, you maybe right http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=1185&highlight=EMT

What difference does it make from using 10 joules to 360 wps in training? 

We need to remember the real reason of using electricity in scenario training was NOT expose students to electric and dangers, rather the real purpose was to enforce proper paddle placement and pressure exerted on paddles to make good conductive medium. 

Safety should be the key factor in any level of training. Using anything that could be really cause potentially harm or damage to students is asking for disaster. Why use such? Does one really have more respect for electric at higher than 50 joules than 200 wps ? Both have dangerous outcomes. 

Personally, I have been teaching ACLS for 25 + years. I stopped real defib on mannequins about 15 years ago. I found it non productive as well just increasing risks to others. Now with the recommendation of hand free defib pads, and again not seeing any defib devices with paddles in about 12 years do not see the need if it and from hundreds of students have never had a report of poor defib techniques. 

As well, teaching AED should be on "dummy" monitors.  Again, due to potential dangers. 

For systems that use the recommended hands free, and want to perform safe and cheaper way, I recommend not to use real Edison medicine. 


R/r 911


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