# Organ Donation?



## bunkie (Oct 4, 2009)

Are you a donor? I was curious to see the numbers for donors in EMS.


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## MSDeltaFlt (Oct 4, 2009)

I also want to be donated as a cadavar.  I learned tons from mine.


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## vquintessence (Oct 4, 2009)

Hell yes, I don't need them anymore.  The fear of "they won't treat me if I'm an organ donor" is about as absurd as fear of getting a DNR for a terminally ill loved one.

If I was to become involved in a situation without chance of either surviving or being neurologically intact... there is something to say about the solace found in my body providing a better life for others.


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## bunkie (Oct 4, 2009)

MSDeltaFlt said:


> I also want to be donated as a cadavar.  I learned tons from mine.



Me too. There probably isn't much they can take from me organ wise, but they are free to what they can manage. After that I'm being cremated anyway, so I plan to donate my body to science. I'm trying to find out what I need to do to have my kidneys donated to PKD research specifically however. I haven't done cadaver lab but I have friends who have and they say the cadavers are treated with the utmost respect and thats extremely encouraging. 

I'm also a registered marrow donor and was a regular blood/platelet donor until I developed tachycardia. :sad:


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## Dominion (Oct 4, 2009)

Cadavar donation for me.


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## nemedic (Oct 4, 2009)

Once I'm gone, I have no use for my organs. If anyone else might, then by all means


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## dmc2007 (Oct 4, 2009)

I'm not at the moment partly for religious reasons and partly because I'm not totally comfortable with the idea, but that could change as time goes on.


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## Smash (Oct 4, 2009)

From a purely utilitarian point of view organ donation is an enormous waste of time and money.  Recipients usually (not always, but usually) never return to any kind of meaningful employment and thus represent nothing more than a huge burden on society due to the immense cost involved in the procedure and the equally immense cost of the life-long medication regimen they must follow.  We all bear that cost through insurance premiums or taxation, and the recipient contributes nothing to society on the whole.

Would I want one of my family members to recieve an organ should they need it?  Of course!  Just saying is all...

I'll happily donate my cadaver so the next generation can learn.  And admire my tattoos.


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## foxfire (Oct 4, 2009)

yup. I will not need them after I am dead and gone.  might as well let someone else get some more miles out of them. B)


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## VentMedic (Oct 4, 2009)

Smash said:


> Recipients usually (not always, but usually) never return to any kind of meaningful employment and thus represent nothing more than a huge burden on society due to the immense cost involved in the procedure and the equally immense cost of the life-long medication regimen they must follow.


 
Many of our organ recipients do very well. They do return to work, go to college and some of the younger ones will marry and even have children. Some of the famous actors have returned to their acting jobs after receiving an organ such as a liver. 

Who has the right to put a price on someone's life although our insurance companies do try? 

As well, there are many different parts of the body that can be used besides the major organs which include the heart, kidneys, liver, lungs, pancreas and intestine. The tissues used include bones, tendons, cornea, heart valves, veins, arms, and skin. 

As well, having that organ donor card may help your loved ones through the process of removing your body from life support especially if "cardiac death" might be used rather than "brain death" as a criteria for removal.


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## ffemt8978 (Oct 4, 2009)

I'm not an organ donor, nor do I think I should/could ever be one.  Given the amount of radiation and other chemicals I've been exposed to over my lifetime (especially while in the military), I would have serious concerns about the increased risk of cancer that my organs could present to the recipient.


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## Seaglass (Oct 5, 2009)

bunkie said:


> Me too. There probably isn't much they can take from me organ wise, but they are free to what they can manage. After that I'm being cremated anyway, so I plan to donate my body to science. I'm trying to find out what I need to do to have my kidneys donated to PKD research specifically however. I haven't done cadaver lab but I have friends who have and they say the cadavers are treated with the utmost respect and thats extremely encouraging.
> 
> I'm also a registered marrow donor and was a regular blood/platelet donor until I developed tachycardia. :sad:



Same for all of the above except the PKD, though it looks like I might need to come off the marrow list. Like most others here, once I'm done with my body, someone else might as well get something out of it.


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## bunkie (Oct 5, 2009)

Smash said:


> From a purely utilitarian point of view organ donation is an enormous waste of time and money.  Recipients usually (not always, but usually) never return to any kind of meaningful employment and thus represent nothing more than a huge burden on society due to the immense cost involved in the procedure and the equally immense cost of the life-long medication regimen they must follow.  We all bear that cost through insurance premiums or taxation, and the recipient contributes nothing to society on the whole.
> 
> Would I want one of my family members to recieve an organ should they need it?  Of course!  Just saying is all...
> 
> I'll happily donate my cadaver so the next generation can learn.  And admire my tattoos.



Um.. wow.



VentMedic said:


> Many of our organ recipients do very well. They do return to work, go to college and some of the younger ones will marry and even have children. Some of the famous actors have returned to their acting jobs after receiving an organ such as a liver.
> 
> Who has the right to put a price on someone's life although our insurance companies do try?
> 
> ...



Kudos.



Seaglass said:


> Same for all of the above except the PKD, though it looks like I might need to come off the marrow list. Like most others here, once I'm done with my body, someone else might as well get something out of it.



Sorry about the marrow list. But hey, what are the chances you'd be matched anyway right.  And I completely agree with you.


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## dewd09 (Oct 5, 2009)

IMO, once they see Organ Donor, they give up too soon. To each their own.


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## VentMedic (Oct 5, 2009)

dewd09 said:


> IMO, once they see Organ Donor, they give up too soon. To each their own.


 
What a horrible thing to say!  We do not kill patients for their organs nor to we give up.

How much do you know about the organ procurement process?

Do you know the criteria to be a candidate for organ procurement?

Do you have any idea of the number of tests a patient must go through before organs can be procured?

Have you even seen an actual organ procurement and the respect the body is treated with?


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## Tincanfireman (Oct 5, 2009)

dewd09 said:


> IMO, once they see Organ Donor, they give up too soon. To each their own.


 
I disagree; not once in 30+ years in this business has organ donation been mentioned until the patient has been pronounced. We certainly don't worry about it the field; working a code is time-consuming enough as it is without rummaging through wallets to look for a driver's license or donor card.  As for me, since I don't need it, they can have it. (especially since my sister-in-law desperately needs a pancreas...)  I'm see-sawing on cadaver donation, but that's for personal reasons that I don't want to get into in this forum.


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## Aerin-Sol (Oct 5, 2009)

dewd09 said:


> IMO, once they see Organ Donor, they give up too soon. To each their own.



Weird, my EMT textbook mentioned that it's very important for organ donors to be cared for just as well as non-organ donors because the organs are useless if they don't get oxygen.


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## VentMedic (Oct 5, 2009)

Tincanfireman said:


> I disagree; *not once in 30+ years in this business has organ donation been mentioned until the patient has been pronounced.* We certainly don't worry about it the field; working a code is time-consuming enough as it is without rummaging through wallets to look for a driver's license or donor card. As for me, since I don't need it, they can have it. (especially since my sister-in-law desperately needs a pancreas...) I'm see-sawing on cadaver donation, but that's for personal reasons that I don't want to get into in this forum.


 
Not necessarily or should I say that statement only applies to EMS.

Once there is a chance that brain death might be a possibility, a discussion is initiated with the family in the ED or ICU. The steps to determine brain death and what it will mean once that determination will mean is discussed. If the patient has an organ donation sticker or card, the family will be informed of that person's decision. 

Once brain death is determined, qualification for organ procurement will take place to see what organs will be usable. This testing is extensive and can take 24 - 48 hours. In the meantime the family is allowed to visit the patient and have whatever bedside services, within reason, throughout the process. There will be chaplains and social workers or whatever service are needed to assist the family. 

The patient will still be connected to a ventilator and whatever possible will be done to keep the body alive to preserve the organs. When it is time with all the surgical teams in place, the patient will be taken to the OR. A chaplain or surgeon may "given thanks" or express some type of appreciation for the organs that are being given by this person prior to any procedures starting.

For the patient who has coded in the field, ED or wherever, the process will take place from the ME or coroner's office. The major organs will not be used as they are also dead when the patient dies. Also, the resuscitation process itself can do damage to the organs. 

For any pronouncement of death inside or outside of the hospital, the organ procurement center for that region is contacted and they follow up to see what tissues (see the list in my previous post) might be used.


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## nomofica (Oct 6, 2009)

bunkie said:


> Me too. There probably isn't much they can take from me organ wise, but they are free to what they can manage. After that I'm being cremated anyway, so I plan to donate my body to science. I'm trying to find out what I need to do to have my kidneys donated to PKD research specifically however. I haven't done cadaver lab but I have friends who have and they say the cadavers are treated with the utmost respect and thats extremely encouraging.
> 
> I'm also a registered marrow donor and was a regular blood/platelet donor until I developed tachycardia. :sad:



IST can really suck sometimes. I have problems with it at times, sometimes causing me shortness of breath although it's never really serious. Only time it has proven to be an issue is when I had a jagerbomb at a night club and put my tachycardia into overdrive. Although, the IV Valium I was given by the medics definitely gave me the most restful sleep of my life. :blush:


As for organ donation, I'm currently not a donor but I would like to be. I have also thought about donating my cadaver to science.


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## dewd09 (Oct 6, 2009)

Whether it offends you or not, that's my view. Non-EMS view. I came whole, I'm leaving whole. If I die because an organ fails, I die. I'm living my life, not dwelling on the last day, why deprive someone else, to extend my life for an extra year. Give it to someone who hasn't lived their life. They just can't have mine. You don't have to agree, and I don't have to agree with you either.


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## mushin_042 (Oct 6, 2009)

Of course I am! I ride a motorcycle and it would ruin the stereotype if I wasn't!


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## Tincanfireman (Oct 6, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Not necessarily or should I say that statement only applies to EMS.


 
Quite right, and a very good point, Vent!  Thanks for the non-EMS perspective...


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## mycrofft (Oct 6, 2009)

*I suggested mine go to Mythbusters...*

..or one of those road shows.
Seriously, they can pick and choose, preferably us eme up. To bad as  prospective donors we aren't registered detailing our occupation and health histories, where we lived, allergies etc. to make our postmortem work more complete.
Ditton on the blood donation, last thing a recipient needs is a blast of beta blockers on top of the other junk banked blood carries in minute quantities.


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## Rob123 (Oct 6, 2009)

dewd09 said:


> IMO, once they see Organ Donor, they give up too soon. To each their own.


I have never hear that.  I used to volunteer for many years at The Lions Eye Bank for Long Island as a transporter of eye and organ tissue. I always thought religious reasons would be the most common reason for not filling out "the form."

Annually, the dedication dinner would provide video messages or guest speakers of the recipients of the special gift.  Hearing stories of people seeing their children for the first time in years was heart warming and fulfilling.

I suppose you can guess what my driver's license has noted.


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## VFFforpeople (Oct 6, 2009)

though after everything I have put my body threw thus far, i dont know how much I will be worth to someone lol


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## MCGLYNN_EMTP (Oct 8, 2009)

The reason I got into EMS in the first place was to help people...Why not help them some more by being an organ donor..HELL YEAH IM ONE


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## Foxbat (Oct 9, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> As well, having that organ donor card may help your loved ones through the process of removing your body from life support especially if "cardiac death" might be used rather than "brain death" as a criteria for removal.


There are different criteria for removing life support for donors vs. non-donors?


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## Seaglass (Oct 9, 2009)

Foxbat said:


> There are different criteria for removing life support for donors vs. non-donors?



Not anywhere I know of. It's more that loved ones sometimes find it psychologically comforting to know that others will be helped, which makes the decision to say goodbye and withdraw life support in non-recoverable cases easier.


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## VentMedic (Oct 9, 2009)

Foxbat said:


> There are different criteria for removing life support for donors vs. non-donors?


 
They are still donors by consent either by their card or their family.

Brain death had been the standard criteria to begin organ procurement.

The cardiac death is another way for organ procurement to be achieved whereas before only brain death could be the criteria. Cardiac death is controversial and it was thought to be useful for pediatrics and neonates. Also, some legislation is written where one can be willingly euthanized, such as in the case of a ventilator dependent quadriplegic, and their organs donated.

This article explains cardiac death and organ procurement.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/357/3/209


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## wvditchdoc (Oct 9, 2009)

Yes I am........


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## dewd09 (Oct 9, 2009)

I see it as "oh look, he's an organ donor, lets give up, and just chop him up.

Being asked why I don't want the free organ donor sticker on my license, offends me. IMO, the DMV shouldn't be allowed to ask. If you want it, you'd check the box. If you don't, you don't check the box and that should be the final word.


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## QSMITH89 (Oct 9, 2009)

Might as well use 'em cause I'm sure not gonna be.


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## Seaglass (Oct 9, 2009)

dewd09 said:


> Being asked why I don't want the free organ donor sticker on my license, offends me. IMO, the DMV shouldn't be allowed to ask. If you want it, you'd check the box. If you don't, you don't check the box and that should be the final word.



I think it all depends on who's asking and how. If it's some random employee trying to convince you, it's rude. Where your stuff goes is nobody's business but yours... and the IRS's, if it's your money. 

But if they're trying to gather data on who's a donor and what crazy myths they might've bought into, it becomes a lot more valid. It's not like you have to explain.


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## itku2er (Oct 10, 2009)

I feel like many of you all do when I am dead I will not need them anymore so yeah if it can save someones life I am all for it. My 20 yo son is a donor also and when my 16 yo turns 18 he has already made the comment that he will be also.


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## Dwindlin (Oct 10, 2009)

Dominion said:


> Cadavar donation for me.



This is probably going to sound strange and backwards but I wanted to do this as well, until I finished Gross Anatomy.  Now, no way.  Organ donation however yes.


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## Dwindlin (Oct 10, 2009)

dewd09 said:


> I see it as "oh look, he's an organ donor, lets give up, and just chop him up.
> 
> Being asked why I don't want the free organ donor sticker on my license, offends me. IMO, the DMV shouldn't be allowed to ask. If you want it, you'd check the box. If you don't, you don't check the box and that should be the final word.



Most teams work someone who is a donor that they normally wouldn't actually work, or work longer on someone.


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## thedawg6 (Oct 11, 2009)

Smash said:


> From a purely utilitarian point of view organ donation is an enormous waste of time and money.  Recipients usually (not always, but usually) never return to any kind of meaningful employment and thus represent nothing more than a huge burden on society due to the immense cost involved in the procedure and the equally immense cost of the life-long medication regimen they must follow.  We all bear that cost through insurance premiums or taxation, and the recipient contributes nothing to society on the whole.
> 
> Would I want one of my family members to recieve an organ should they need it?  Of course!  Just saying is all...
> 
> I'll happily donate my cadaver so the next generation can learn.  And admire my tattoos.



Would love to see some published material to back up your claim.  And if something happened and you needed a transplant would your view change or would you fall into the "never return to any kind of meaningful employment and thus represent nothing more than a huge burden on society due to the immense cost involved in the procedure and the equally immense cost of the life-long medication regimen they must follow"


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## csly27 (Oct 11, 2009)

I am a donor, even before I got into ems, However I never really thought much about cadaver donation. I plan on being creamated anyway. I will have to look into that, I am not even sure where I would go to look into that, anyone with any info would be great.


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## Seaglass (Oct 11, 2009)

csly27 said:


> I am a donor, even before I got into ems, However I never really thought much about cadaver donation. I plan on being creamated anyway. I will have to look into that, I am not even sure where I would go to look into that, anyone with any info would be great.



Here's a simple article to get you started.


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## csly27 (Oct 11, 2009)

Seaglass said:


> Here's a simple article to get you started.



Thanks that was great, I have a lot to think about. I may be somewhat young still, but you never know


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## Seaglass (Oct 11, 2009)

csly27 said:


> Thanks that was great, I have a lot to think about. I may be somewhat young still, but you never know



If you decide to do it, don't let your age stop you--unless you're legally too young in your jurisdiction, of course. I'm still very young myself and have no reason to think I'll be dying soon, but I'm going ahead with the paperwork anyways.


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## csly27 (Oct 12, 2009)

lol I dont think too many people wake and think today is the day I am gonna die. unless they plan on doing it to them selfs. I know I dont think about it too much. I think about it but not to the point of obsession. I just want to make sure that I know all of my options so my family does not have to worry about it or fight over it. I think it is a good idea to give your self over for donation mabey it will be of help to someone, as long as I am turned over when I am done for cremation. lots to think about


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## Dwindlin (Oct 12, 2009)

csly27 said:


> lol I dont think too many people wake and think today is the day I am gonna die. unless they plan on doing it to them selfs. I know I dont think about it too much. I think about it but not to the point of obsession. I just want to make sure that I know all of my options so my family does not have to worry about it or fight over it. I think it is a good idea to give your self over for donation mabey it will be of help to someone, *as long as I am turned over when I am done for cremation*. lots to think about



Check into this carefully, often times this is not an option.  Speaking from experience cadavers are destroyed.  Not like an autopsy.  Not uncommon for limbs/head to be dysarticulated, pelvis hemisected, etc.  "Waste" portions (skin, fat, fascia, etc) are not kept separated.  And occasionally if a particular portion is dissected well will not be destroyed but kept for years. Cremation is done by the program not family, and I do not believe you get actual remains back.   

Most times you cannot dictate what they use your remains for, you can simply will it to a donation program.  They decide whether you'll go to research, cadaver lab, or advanced surgical training.   

This was info given to us by one of the largest Anatomical gift foundations in the US.  So, as I said, look into it very carefully.


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## bunkie (Oct 12, 2009)

atkinsje said:


> Check into this carefully, often times this is not an option.  Speaking from experience cadavers are destroyed.  Not like an autopsy.  Not uncommon for limbs/head to be dysarticulated, pelvis hemisected, etc.  "Waste" portions (skin, fat, fascia, etc) are not kept separated.  And occasionally if a particular portion is dissected well will not be destroyed but kept for years. Cremation is done by the program not family, and I do not believe you get actual remains back.
> 
> Most times you cannot dictate what they use your remains for, you can simply will it to a donation program.  They decide whether you'll go to research, cadaver lab, or advanced surgical training.
> 
> This was info given to us by one of the largest Anatomical gift foundations in the US.  So, as I said, look into it very carefully.



I would double check your state. My friend says the cadavers in her lab went back to their families after they were done to do with the bodies what they would. But I'm glad you mentioned this, I'm going to double check. They wont be getting my body if I'm not going to get the burial I want.


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## Seaglass (Oct 12, 2009)

Definitely check on that. Some places cremate whatever's left when they finish and turn that over to the family--but that may only be a few parts. Some never give anything back. Personally, I don't really mind either way, but I plan on asking my family what they'd prefer before I finalize anything.

To be honest, I think mine won't want anything back... it seems like getting the remains back in a few years would just stir up old grief.


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## RescueYou (Oct 13, 2009)

Eh...IDK yet. I'm thinking I may get it put on my license next time I have reason to go down to the DMV and just sign the papers. I ahve no use for them, but then again, I kinda wanted to be buried whole...with everything still inside me...
We'll see


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## imhumanoid (Nov 7, 2009)

Smash said:


> From a purely utilitarian point of view organ donation is an enormous waste of time and money.  Recipients usually (not always, but usually) never return to any kind of meaningful employment and thus represent nothing more than a huge burden on society due to the immense cost involved in the procedure and the equally immense cost of the life-long medication regimen they must follow.



Just wow. <_<

I have had 2 liver transplants, both when I was under a year old.
I am now 15 and still going strong. I plan to become a paramedic when I am old enough to start my training.
MOST recipients usually lead a great meaningful life.
My only mess up was about 2 months ago, I fainted in a park, and was transported in an ambulance. THATS ALL.
I have done great for having 2 transplants, and so do most people.

I will not be a burden, I guarantee it. Nor will many other people.
They are grateful for the second chance they get, stay strong and live a full life. ^_^



dewd09 said:


> IMO, once they see Organ Donor, they give up too soon. To each their own.



Seriously, that is one of the biggest myths in organ donation. 
I wish there was more opportunity out there for education on organ donation.


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## VentMedic (Nov 7, 2009)

Spirra911 said:


> Just wow. <_<
> 
> I have had 2 liver transplants, both when I was under a year old.
> I am now 15 and still going strong. I plan to become a paramedic when I am old enough to start my training.
> ...


 
I don't know how much you know about EMS providers but most have never been past the ED.   As well,  there are few to no A&P or other science prerequisites for EMS providers as there are for nursing and other healthcare professions.   Thus, many are only speaking from hearsay and sci-fi TV shows.    

I seriously doubt if you are going to change any attitudes here because some will not bother to research what they do not know.  The education thing is a little scary for many in EMS.  

Glad to hear you are doing well.

May I ask if you got a liver from another child or if it was from an adult?


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## imhumanoid (Nov 7, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> May I ask if you got a liver from another child or if it was from an adult?



My first liver transplant at 3 months old was from a baby who died of "Sudden Infant Death".
Went into failure again at 9 months old and my second liver received was from a 2yo male who died in an MVA.


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## Griff (Nov 7, 2009)

Smash said:


> From a purely utilitarian point of view organ donation is an enormous waste of time and money.  Recipients usually (not always, but usually) never return to any kind of meaningful employment and thus represent nothing more than a huge burden on society due to the immense cost involved in the procedure and the equally immense cost of the life-long medication regimen they must follow.  We all bear that cost through insurance premiums or taxation, and the recipient contributes nothing to society on the whole.
> 
> Would I want one of my family members to recieve an organ should they need it?  Of course!  Just saying is all...
> 
> I'll happily donate my cadaver so the next generation can learn.  And admire my tattoos.



I bet you're a lot of fun at parties.


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## medicdan (Nov 7, 2009)




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## Sasha (Nov 7, 2009)

bunkie said:


> Are you a donor? I was curious to see the numbers for donors in EMS.



Yes, I'm an organ donor. I think organ donation is the simplest act of kindness you can do for your fellow human beings.

When I die, I wont need my organs anymore. 

I don't get why people DON'T donate organs.. It's not as if you're going to die, go to heaven (if you believe in that stuff) and God's going to go "wtf? didnt I send you down there with a liver, heart and kidneys? where the heck are they!?"


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## usafmedic45 (Nov 7, 2009)

> It's not as if you're going to die, go to heaven (if you believe in that stuff) and God's going to go "wtf? didnt I send you down there with a liver, heart and kidneys? where the heck are they!?"



Because a lot of us are selfish :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored:s who can't see past the ends of our noses.  Also a lot of us don't believe in a higher power so that argument isn't valid (and in some cases it actually could be offensive).  Even in most of the religions that require burial of an "intact" body (the ones that object to autopsies and such), organ donation is the one exception to the rule since it's considered to be a last gesture of kindness and self-sacrifice to your fellow man.  

BTW, I'm an organ donor and actually started a chapter of a group to encourage other students on the campus of the university I attended to become donors.  I figure that I don't need them and if it benefits someone else, it's not going to inconvenience me any so why not do it?  Just so long as it doesn't go to a homeless guy begging for a kidney on the side of the road (sorry Sasha....couldn't resist).


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## Sasha (Nov 7, 2009)

> Also a lot of us don't believe in a higher power so that argument isn't valid (and in some cases it actually could be offensive).



I'm well aware, as I'm an atheist. That was just an argument I've presented to a friend of mine before who happened to be quite religious and it brought her around to organ donation. It's a very casual and light argument without calling people outright selfish, as you have.



> Just so long as it doesn't go to a homeless guy begging for a kidney on the side of the road (sorry Sasha....couldn't resist).



I'm wondering when you'll finally get tired of that? It was cute maybe the first time but now it's gotten old. We get it, you don't like homeless people, you can let it go.

I feel particularly bad for those on the organ donation lists. It must be frustrating and scary to be waiting for an organ without knowing if you'll ever get one.


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## JPINFV (Nov 7, 2009)

emt.dan said:


> XKCD





I've been tempted to post that since I saw that comic.


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## usafmedic45 (Nov 7, 2009)

> I'm well aware, as I'm an atheist.



Really?  You conduct yourself more like one of my wife's Jesus freak friends than most of the dedicated atheists I've crossed paths with.  I'm pleasantly surprised to learn this about you. 



> I'm wondering when you'll finally get tired of that? It was cute maybe the first time but now it's gotten old. We get it, you don't like homeless people, you can let it go.



Sorry. I was just trying to make you chuckle a little.  BTW, it's not just homeless people I don't like.  I just assume people are tax-sucking, immoral douches until proven otherwise.  It's a nice way to avoid disappointment. 



> I feel particularly bad for those on the organ donation lists. It must be frustrating and scary to be waiting for an organ without knowing if you'll ever get one.



Likewise.


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## Smash (Nov 7, 2009)

Griff said:


> I bet you're a lot of fun at parties.



I'm a veritable laugh riot! 

It's a bit sad thought that one can't raise interesting questions on how we approach care in certain cirumstances without the automatic response being personal attack, or a scintillating gem of debate such as "Um..wow"

It is a very interesting and very vaild question of how and where we spend out limited healthcare dollar, but areas such as transplantation or geriatric care for example seem to be off limits for some reason, despite the enormous cost associated.  For example, it is estimated (depending on who you read) that up to 70% of the health care dollar is spent on people in their last year of life, which somewhat begs the question of whether that money could be better spent elsewhere.

Organ donation however is not so clear cut.  Kidney transplantation for example seems to bring a net benefit of around $90k a year; however figures for other types of transplantation are not so clear, and changing demographics will impact on how and where this money is spent.

Ultimately though, I think that what is the most concerning is not the lack of rational debate that can be enterered into, but the utter lack of reading comprehension that many people seem to exhibit.  To recap my first post:

*"From a purely utiliatarian point of view"*  Note that this does not necessarily meant that this is the viewpoint that I espouse, merely one that may be debated.  This would perhaps be reinforced by my other lines such as

_"Would I want one of my family members to recieve an organ should they need it? Of course! Just saying is all...

I'll happily donate my cadaver so the next generation can learn. And admire my tattoos. _

Perhaps some remedial reading classes could be paid for by some companies for CE credits


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## firecoins (Nov 7, 2009)

MSDeltaFlt said:


> I also want to be donated as a cadavar.  I learned tons from mine.



why do you have your own cadaver?


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## Seaglass (Nov 7, 2009)

Smash said:


> It's a bit sad thought that one can't raise interesting questions on how we approach care in certain cirumstances without the automatic response being personal attack, or a scintillating gem of debate such as "Um..wow"



It's all about how you raise those questions... and being a jerk elsewhere is definitely going to change how other people react to anything you say in the future.


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## usafmedic45 (Nov 7, 2009)

> "From a purely utiliatarian point of view" Note that this does not necessarily meant that this is the viewpoint that I espouse, merely one that may be debated. This would perhaps be reinforced by my other lines such as



The reason we took you to task for it (or rather VentMedic did...and there are few people- other than my superiors- I fear having prove me wrong than her...it's like having a Rottweiler grab you by the scrotum) was that you based that assessment off of flawed notions that are patently false.


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## Griff (Nov 7, 2009)

Smash said:


> I'm a veritable laugh riot!
> 
> It's a bit sad thought that one can't raise interesting questions on how we approach care in certain cirumstances without the automatic response being personal attack, or a scintillating gem of debate such as "Um..wow"
> 
> ...



TL;DR.

Note that I didn't disagree with you; I merely commented on the state of your overall party-worthiness. I would like to subscribe to your newsletter, etc, and I am happy that epic lulz occurred anyway. ^_^


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## Smash (Nov 8, 2009)

Griff said:


> TL;DR.
> 
> Note that I didn't disagree with you; I merely commented on the state of your overall party-worthiness. I would like to subscribe to your newsletter, etc, and I am happy that epic lulz occurred anyway. ^_^



A few Pan-Galactic Gargle Blasters and I'll have 'em rolling on the floor.  That could be from the elbow to the throat though... h34r:

My newsletter "Ambulance Driving Made Unecessarily Complex, Time Consuming and Ineffective" comes out fortnightly, I'll comp you a copy 



			
				Seaglass said:
			
		

> and being a jerk elsewhere is definitely going to change how other people react to anything you say in the future.



You would think so  
However 2 points argue against your case.  One is the fact that I posted in this thread long before I was a jerk in another thread about organ donation, and the other is the fact that some posters, despite an apparent inability to say anything civil about anyone, ever, nor indeed to actually address comments or questions directly, continue to be held in high regard for some reason.

How I say things may vary, but I would hope that as mature professionals we are able to examine the content rather than the delivery. 



			
				usafmedic said:
			
		

> The reason we took you to task for it (or rather VentMedic did...and there are few people- other than my superiors- I fear having prove me wrong than her...it's like having a Rottweiler grab you by the scrotum) was that you based that assessment off of flawed notions that are patently false.



I disagree that they are based off a premise that is patently false.  Four articles that come to mind to support my views (both on kidney transplantation and others) are Cope (2001), Longworth (2003), Ouwens (2003) and Sagmeister (2003) (I love that name!)  I will dig up the full citations shortly.

Irrespective of that, if the basis of my statement was blatantly incorrect it should be an inconsequential matter to simply rebut it with the appropriate evidence (as indeed it is relatively easy to do) and move on.  Instead we have a chorus of "No way", "Nuh-uh!" "OMG" and "I seen people do good!"

I could have posted references in my first post, and maybe I should have, however I thought that it might stir discussion, debate and possibly even some research to rebut that position.  I was sadly mistaken.


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## Smash (Nov 8, 2009)

Incidentally USAF, that last was not directed at you.

I've lost my USB drive, so I can't find all the refernces I want.  I will re-find them and post them another time.  The 4 I mentioned are:

Cope, J. T., Kaza, A. K., Reade, C. C., Shockey, K. S., Kern, J. A., Tribble, C. G., et al. (2001). A cost comparison of heart transplantation versus alternative operations for cardiomyopathy. Ann Thorac Surg, 72(4), 1298-1305.

Longworth, L., Young, T., Buxton, M. J., Ratcliffe, J., Neuberger, J., Burroughs, A., et al. (2003). Midterm cost-effectiveness of the liver transplantation program of England and Wales for three disease groups. Liver Transpl, 9(12), 1295-1307.

Ouwens, J. P., van Enckevort, P. J., TenVergert, E. M., Bonsel, G. J., van der Bij, W., Haagsma, E. B., et al. (2003). The cost effectiveness of lung transplantation compared with that of heart and liver transplantation in the 
Netherlands. Transpl Int, 16(2), 123-127.

Sagmeister, M., Mullhaupt, B., Kadry, Z., Kullak-Ublick, G. A., Clavien, P. A., & Renner, E. L. (2002). Cost-effectiveness of cadaveric and living-donor liver transplantation. Transplantation, 73(4), 616-622.


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## usafmedic45 (Nov 8, 2009)

> Incidentally USAF, that last was not directed at you.



Even if it was, I take no offense at it.  

I'll pull the articles in the morning after church and I'll take a look at them.


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## kd7emt (Nov 8, 2009)

I'm an organ donor but my skeleton is earmarked for my anthro department from grad school.  Plastic bones only teach so much.


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## usafmedic45 (Nov 8, 2009)

kd7emt said:


> I'm an organ donor but my skeleton is earmarked for my anthro department from grad school.  Plastic bones only teach so much.


A now deceased acquaintance of mine is actually on display at the National Museum of Natural History.  It's really weird to round a corner and see this....: 





...and realize you're looking at the skeleton of someone you knew and respected.  I had actually forgotten that he'd donated his skeleton and that of his dog.  They mounted them together to mimic a picture of Dr. Krantz and his dog in life (which is hanging next to the skeletons).


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## Lifeguards For Life (Nov 20, 2009)

I'm actually curious about donating my body to science. I feel that I would rather have an individual, or the medical community at large, benefit from my body than just rotting.


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## JPINFV (Nov 20, 2009)

Lifeguards For Life said:


> I'm actually curious about donating my body to science. I feel that I would rather have an individual, or the medical community at large, benefit from my body than just rotting.



http://www.westernu.edu/xp/edu/comp/wbp.xml


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## Seaglass (Nov 21, 2009)

usafmedic45 said:


> A now deceased acquaintance of mine is actually on display at the National Museum of Natural History.  It's really weird to round a corner and see this....:
> 
> ...and realize you're looking at the skeleton of someone you knew and respected.  I had actually forgotten that he'd donated his skeleton and that of his dog.  They mounted them together to mimic a picture of Dr. Krantz and his dog in life (which is hanging next to the skeletons).



I passed by that exhibit without really looking at it. I assumed it was some animal attacking him or something. Now I think that's just about the most awesome and touching way to preserve remains ever, and that it's even cooler that you knew the guy.


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## DaGonz (Nov 21, 2009)

I don't look at it as organ donation.... I see it as "recycling" B)

PS: yes I am... parts is parts!


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## mycrofft (Nov 21, 2009)

*Mine goes to Mythbusters*

Save them a trip to "The Bone Room".
http://www.boneroom.com/


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