# New York's Poorest



## Zephyr

Please read this newspaper article about the plight of New York's Poorest-- FDNY EMS EMTs and Paramedics, and vote in the poll. Thanks!


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2008/06/02/2008-06-02_emts_drive_home_plea_for_more_pay-2.html


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## JPINFV

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2008/06/02/2008-06-02_emts_drive_home_plea_for_more_pay-2.html

working link.


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## Zephyr

Thanks, JPINV.


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## Ridryder911

It is a shame our profession makes so little, yet again; what can we expect to receive with a little education? Seriously, take a 150 hour course or so, not bad pay for a advanced first aid course. Now, evaluate this in comparison to those with the same number of correlating hours. For example manicurists has more required hours and clinical time.. and they may make less. There are far more individuals that attended more training and make less than EMT's. Ironically, one should not compare salaries solely based upon amount.. the NYC/ EMT's are making about half the amount of ER Physicians are making here.  

This all goes back to trade/vocation instead of education... alike everything else, it all goes back to education. Want more money, we will have to become educated to become a professional. 

I am totally against mandatory overtime if one's work week already includes overtime. 

R/r 911


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## Zephyr

Ridryder911 said:


> It is a shame our profession makes so little, yet again; what can we expect to receive with a little education? Seriously, take a 150 hour course or so, not bad pay for a advanced first aid course. Now, evaluate this in comparison to those with the same number of correlating hours. For example manicurists has more required hours and clinical time.. and they may make less. There are far more individuals that attended more training and make less than EMT's. Ironically, one should not compare salaries solely based upon amount.. the NYC/ EMT's are making about half the amount of ER Physicians are making here.
> 
> This all goes back to trade/vocation instead of education... alike everything else, it all goes back to education. Want more money, we will have to become educated to become a professional.
> 
> I am totally against mandatory overtime if one's work week already includes overtime.
> 
> R/r 911



If education is the directly proportionate gauge for setting salary, then why do NYC's garbage collectors make more than EMTs?  Which city employees complete more training and get paid less than $27K in New York City?  If I'm an ER physician making $54K, I'm going to seek employment elsewhere to pay back my student loads, or go back into the military, where I was making more money.

I agree with you on the OT.  I would want my EMTs to get enough rest so I know that they're not treating patients while exhausted.


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## Ridryder911

The reason garbage collectors makes more is because you do not see people flocking to  volunteer, nor see the "attraction" enough to make their personal vehicles as "garbage trucks", or have the "flashing lights" and toys associated with EMS. It is not one of those "neat & fun" jobs. 

I would imagine they probably have as much in-service education per hour length than the Basic EMT level. 

Albeit, a poor and shameful disgraceful pay structure, yet again; what other profession only requires 150 hours in length especially in health care? .... What do you expect a phleb or nurse aide to make? 

The article describes that they can max out at $54,000 dollars in 20 years. An ER physician in my area (board certified) averages little over a $100,000 per year (of course they can make more if they work O.T.) I just discussed with one ER physician ( a former Paramedic, he makes $ 180,000 a year... - $38,0000 for malpractice, $25,000 school loans, etc..) 

Want EMS to make more... remove the EMT level and require an degree Paramedic. This has been proven over & over in other health care professions of removing & increasing the license level. 

R/r 911


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## firecoins

Ridryder911 said:


> It is a shame our profession makes so little, yet again; what can we expect to receive with a little education? Seriously, take a 150 hour course or so, not bad pay for a advanced first aid course. Now, evaluate this in comparison to those with the same number of correlating hours. For example manicurists has more required hours and clinical time.. and they may make less. There are far more individuals that attended more training and make less than EMT's. Ironically, one should not compare salaries solely based upon amount.. the NYC/ EMT's are making about half the amount of ER Physicians are making here.
> 
> This all goes back to trade/vocation instead of education... alike everything else, it all goes back to education. Want more money, we will have to become educated to become a professional.
> 
> R/r 911



Education should not be the sole factor consiudering how much work NYC EMT-Bs actually do. But NYC EMTs go through much more than 150 hours of education. Its not just an EMT-B class. One must be an EMT-B to apply. Than it takes 2.5 to 3 months in the academy once hired. The academy repreats the EMT-B class applicants already took plus EVOC and physical fitness training.  Than you must ride for a month with an FTO to make sure you doing things correctly.  Tahn they work in the busiest systems in the country. They do deserve more pay. 

But yes EMT-Bs need more education



> Ironically, one should not compare salaries solely based upon amount.. the NYC/ EMT's are making about half the amount of ER Physicians are making here


Actually its not that ironic. NYC has a much higher cost of living than most places in the country sometime more than double what it costs elsewhere. NYC EMT-Bs don't make enough to live in NYC and medics don't make off much better.


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## Zephyr

Ridryder911 said:


> The reason garbage collectors makes more is because you do not see people flocking to  volunteer, nor see the "attraction" enough to make their personal vehicles as "garbage trucks", or have the "flashing lights" and toys associated with EMS. It is not one of those "neat & fun" jobs.
> 
> I would imagine they probably have as much in-service education per hour length than the Basic EMT level.
> 
> Albeit, a poor and shameful disgraceful pay structure, yet again; what other profession only requires 150 hours in length especially in health care? .... What do you expect a phleb or nurse aide to make?
> 
> The article describes that they can max out at $54,000 dollars in 20 years. An ER physician in my area (board certified) averages little over a $100,000 per year (of course they can make more if they work O.T.) I just discussed with one ER physician ( a former Paramedic, he makes $ 180,000 a year... - $38,0000 for malpractice, $25,000 school loans, etc..)
> 
> Want EMS to make more... remove the EMT level and require an degree Paramedic. This has been proven over & over in other health care professions of removing & increasing the license level.
> 
> R/r 911




R/r 911,

Applicants aren't flocking to join FDNY EMS.  It's a known fact that there is an EMT/Paramedic shortage in FDNY, which is why there's mandatory overtime.  Reportedly, 120+ EMTs/Paramedics are quitting this summer.  Just as firecoins mentioned, FDNY EMTs not only have to complete EMT school on the outside to get their NY state EMT certification, they have to do it all over again in the Academy.  Newly NYC-certified Paramedics already working as FDNY EMTs have to go through the Paramedic program at the Academy even AFTER they've completed Paramedic school on the outside.

$54K in NYC is nothing, much less $27K.  Almost EVERYTHING in NYC is more expensive than most parts of the country, especially rent.  I don't know how long I'd be able to work as a FDNY EMT on that salary, but I didn't go to EMT school to become a millionaire, just like most of us.

I agree with you both on upping the ante.  There should be more mandatory education to begin with...


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## Ridryder911

Even if additional training it would still be less than 1000 hours.. less than a beautician. Now with that I do understand the shortage.. I have met EMT's and Paramedics on EMS forums from FDNYC EMS and have heard the disgruntled employees. Especially those between FD and EMS division. The shame that EMS is really a stepchild of the FD, as usual in most FD's. One of the reasons I am against EMS in Fire Services. 

Again, until we can "justify" our existence and prove that one cannot be replaced by someone that will work for free or can be easily replaced, we will continue to see this trend. 

R/r 911


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## BossyCow

Ridryder911 said:


> The reason garbage collectors makes more is because you do not see people flocking to  volunteer, nor see the "attraction" enough to make their personal vehicles as "garbage trucks", or have the "flashing lights" and toys associated with EMS. It is not one of those "neat & fun" jobs.



Actually this was a topic of discussion in a sociology class I took some years back. The reason proposed by those conducting the study was, that when the garbage backs up on the street and the garbage collectors go on strike (which they can because nobody dies) The stench and the smell causes the citizenry to call their city aldermen. Also, garbagemen are generally unionized and most commonly Teamsters. 

EMS has fought the idea of unionization. But if the profession is to change, it needs to combine and organize with other systems and do it as a unit. Otherwise we'll just be pissing in the ocean.


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## mikeylikesit

quit complaining, when we took the job, when we went to school it was never about the money and we knew it. i quit a job making way more money than i do know with less hours and less workload...i don't complain about something i knew about in advance.


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## Ops Paramedic

It is most likely not my place to comment on the article with regards to NYC.  I will try to relate to the issue of more pay as we experience it on our side...

When reading the article, i first compaired our income to that was mentioned.  Money wise, i would say that is more or less on par, but one has to take into account the difference in cost of living as well the amount of hours worked.  We don't have compulsary OT as a rule, however there are limitations as to how much you can do, it is also taxed fairly heavily.

There is no specific union that we can join, only allied health workers unions (Nurses), which is not really tailor made for us.  The manor in which the majority of our country's workforce obtain better wages and working conditions is to: Strike (Down Tools).  However this practice is only reserved for those belonging to a union, and NOT for the EMS  which is seen as a essential service.  They are only allowed to do a "Go-Slow", ie, you don't have to service non priority calls...

With us, every time you go up a level (BLS-ILS-ALS), you get an increase, which indirectly implies what has been mentioned already.  Futher your education and will earn more.  There is of course a but, so: but, there are different ways one get to the ALS level.  You can either do short courses, totaling up to roughly 13months at a college, or you can go the university and obtain your Bachelor of Technology in Emergency Medical Care, which takes you 4 years full time.  Yet, you pass out at the same level, namely ALS, thus the salary is the same.  I believe that our industry  is to blame for that.  As the B-Tech is very new qualification, it is not yet recognised in industry, with regards to salary anyway.

There are many other factors that has an impact as to what you earn, such as years of service, rank, area, service, etc.  Everyone always wants to earn more (and employers want to save more), if not, there might be something wrong with you.  It is sometimes difficuilt to find common ground that suites both parties.  Also remember that there are those who draw a salary and those who earn one...


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## Ridryder911

mikeylikesit said:


> quit complaining, when we took the job, when we went to school it was never about the money and we knew it. i quit a job making way more money than i do know with less hours and less workload...i don't complain about something i knew about in advance.



You must be young & single, & no school loans.. . Just because one knows about the income does not mean it should stay that way. You would agree upon a cut in pay.. let's say about 25% or 40% due to cost in increase in fuel? 

I realized I would take a cut as well (actually almost 3/4 per hourly) & yes, it was my choice. This does not mean I have to settle for it. I agree everyone realizes the pay sucks, but we as a profession main goal after patient care should be increasing pay structure. One cannot attract professional minded employees and long term prospects with sub-standard & having the ability to be on food stamps.

R/r 911


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## firecoins

Ridryder911 said:


> Even if additional training it would still be less than 1000 hours.. less than a beautician. Now with that I do understand the shortage.. I have met EMT's and Paramedics on EMS forums from FDNYC EMS and have heard the disgruntled employees. Especially those between FD and EMS division. The shame that EMS is really a stepchild of the FD, as usual in most FD's. One of the reasons I am against EMS in Fire Services.
> 
> Again, until we can "justify" our existence and prove that one cannot be replaced by someone that will work for free or can be easily replaced, we will continue to see this trend.
> 
> R/r 911




Training hours should not be the sole requirement. As someone in the NYC system, FDNY EMT-Bs deserve a raise reguardless of training hours.   FDNY BLS units have high call volumes compared with 911 rigs in the sorrounding areas.  They need to make more.  Volunteer systems are not to blame because no volunteer system could possibly do what FDNY EMS does. No beaticians could put up with the crap that BLS units put up with


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## CFRBryan347768

firecoins said:


> Training hours should not be the sole requirement. As someone in the NYC system, FDNY EMT-Bs deserve a raise reguardless of training hours.   FDNY BLS units have high call volumes compared with 911 rigs in the sorrounding areas.  They need to make more.  Volunteer systems are not to blame because no volunteer system could possibly do what FDNY EMS does. No beaticians could put up with the crap that BLS units put up with



New City is a bunch of BeauticiansB)^_^:glare:


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## triemal04

Why is anyone so shocked about this?  Or a better question is, why does this always (yes always; it happens many times on these type of forums) get people in such a fury when it happens it NYC but not when it happens on a routine basis across the country?  Reality check people, 27+K a year is a lot more than what many, many basics make nationwide.  Yes, the cost of living is much higher, but the job that is being done is still the same.  

You may want to remember that an EMT-basic really is the most bottom rung on the ladder; like it or not they are about the most disposable and easily found person in the medical field.  Why pay them more when there are thousands more out there?  Hell, why pay them more even if there aren't?  They don't get taught enough to justify making a huge salary.  If that's offensive to some...that's how it is.  You need to get used to it, because it won't be changing anytime soon.  

The paramedic salary is pretty crappy, but, it's really on par with what both FDNY firefighters make, as well as NYPD cops.  Should it be more?  Sure, but it is a civil service job, as well as an unrepresented and unappreciated one.  So that's two strikes, and the lack of a mandatory degree is the third.  

If you want changes, increase the requirements for education, increase the public awareness, and realize that bottum rung providers will never make that much.  Simple fact of life.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/community/ems_employment.shtml#emt_salary
http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/community/ff_salary_benefits_080106.shtml
http://www.nypd2.org/html/recruit/salary.html


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## firecoins

triemal04 said:


> Why is anyone so shocked about this?  [


No one is shocked about this.



> You may want to remember that an EMT-basic really is the most bottom rung on the ladder; like it or not they are about the most disposable and easily found person in the medical field.


 EMT-Bs are the lowest trained but they are the workhorse of the NYC EMS force. This is good thing.  



> Why pay them more when there are thousands more out there?  Hell, why pay them more even if there aren't?


 There is a shortage of EMT-Bs working for FDNY.  Supply and Demand. If you can't get the # of EMT-Bs that you need, the salary must rise. 



> They don't get taught enough to justify making a huge salary.  If that's offensive to some...that's how it is.  You need to get used to it, because it won't be changing anytime soon.


You clearly have never worked in NYC.  Transport times to major trama centers are never more than 5 minutes. BLS units take calls that would go ALS anywhere else due to short transports. And everything is based of transport to facilities not what you can medically do on scene because of that. 

Example: NYC REMAC committee didn't make glucometers a mandatory in ALS trucks because they felt it would delay treatment and transport. Your expected to just give Dextrose 50% and transport.  Yet ALS is required to be performed everywhere else in the region.   




> he paramedic salary is pretty crappy, but, it's really on par with what both FDNY firefighters make, as well as NYPD cops.  Should it be more?  Sure, but it is a civil service job, as well as an unrepresented and unappreciated one.  So that's two strikes, and the lack of a mandatory degree is the third.


Cops and firefighter are not required to have a degree, just 60 college credits.  And they make more.  Paramedics often go on to other professions like nursing and PA. You will see a NYC shortage soon. 



> If you want changes, increase the requirements for education, increase the public awareness, and realize that bottum rung providers will never make that much.  Simple fact of life.


No! Its not that simple. NYC politics are complicated. PD and FD don't have very educational requirments at all. Any moron can be NYPD. In fact low pay rookies and that is what they NYPD got, morons.  You can change the education requirments to PhDs for all medics and they will not make a dime more.  EMS is the bottom rungers because they are the newest public servants of all NYC public servants and have the weakest pull.  The NYPD and FDNY, sanitation, teachers, transit workers all been around for 100 plus years. NYC EMS has been around for 30 some odd years by comparison. Naturally its the weakest.  Its own division got eaten up by the FDNY 15 years ago.  

To give you an idea of how slow NYC moves, The FDNY are still waiting for a new radio system that they have needed since the 1993 WTC attack.  Could have used in 2001.  Oh well


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## triemal04

firecoins said:


> No one is shocked about this.
> Really?  Then why is it even a topic?  The pay there is much better than in other parts of the country, so really, if it's not a big deal, why bother bringing it up?
> 
> EMT-Bs are the lowest trained but they are the workhorse of the NYC EMS force. This is good thing.
> So it's good that untrained people are providing the majority of the care?  Hmmm...
> 
> There is a shortage of EMT-Bs working for FDNY.  Supply and Demand. If you can't get the # of EMT-Bs that you need, the salary must rise.
> Yeah.  But why should they be getting that salarly?  For being a cab driver for the sick and/or the faking sick?
> 
> You clearly have never worked in NYC.  Transport times to major trama centers are never more than 5 minutes. BLS units take calls that would go ALS anywhere else due to short transports. And everything is based of transport to facilities not what you can medically do on scene because of that.
> 
> Example: NYC REMAC committee didn't make glucometers a mandatory in ALS trucks because they felt it would delay treatment and transport. Your expected to just give Dextrose 50% and transport.  Yet ALS is required to be performed everywhere else in the region.
> Proves my point again.  If all they do is toss someone in the back and aren't able to do anything, why should they get paid more?  As an EMt-B, in 5 minutes, what would they do for a critical ALS call?  Drive faster?
> 
> 
> Cops and firefighter are not required to have a degree, just 60 college credits.  And they make more.  Paramedics often go on to other professions like nursing and PA. You will see a NYC shortage soon.
> Huh.  Didn't think New York was one of the states that required any sort of degree to be a paramedic.  Or an EMT-B for that matter.  My point being, if you look at the tables, the salaries are comparable, and any moron can become an EMT-B.  Many do.  So why pay them more?
> 
> No! Its not that simple. NYC politics are complicated. PD and FD don't have very educational requirments at all. Any moron can be NYPD. In fact low pay rookies and that is what they NYPD got, morons.  You can change the education requirments to PhDs for all medics and they will not make a dime more.  EMS is the bottom rungers because they are the newest public servants of all NYC public servants and have the weakest pull.  The NYPD and FDNY, sanitation, teachers, transit workers all been around for 100 plus years. NYC EMS has been around for 30 some odd years by comparison. Naturally its the weakest.  Its own division got eaten up by the FDNY 15 years ago.
> Excellent point.  And very true.  EMS is the :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: stepchild in part because it is only 30 odd years old.  Also in part to the apathy on many providers parts for improving the profession.  But again, any moron can be an EMT-B.  So why, especially as you pointed out since they do squat in their VERY short transport time, pay them more?  Hell, if ALS isn't expected to do much either, why even pay them more?
> 
> To give you an idea of how slow NYC moves, The FDNY are still waiting for a new radio system that they have needed since the 1993 WTC attack.  Could have used in 2001.  Oh well



I'm not sure what you were trying to get at there.  If you really think that an EMT-B in NYC should be paid more, then please explain.  Or, if you want to just focus on medics, explain why, if they only have limited abilities to care for their patients, they should be getting more.  (don't know if that's the case, but you sure seem to imply that's how it is)


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## LIFEGUARDAVIDAS

It reminds me the understaffing problem LAPD still faces -which remains unknown to most tax payers there.

Does any pre-1993 NYC EMS EMT-B / EMT-Paramedic knows why the EMS got merged with the FDNY? (I hope it wasn't their USAR role in the movie 'Day light' shadowing FDNY) 

Have those employees who originally served for the NYC EMS still working (now as FDNY EMS personnel) got to keep their badges or did they have to 'return' them? 

As far as if salaries will rise once the shortage increase... I hate to sound pesimistic but here is what happens in the Aquatic Safety field: NYC Parks & Recreation Dept. has been facing lifeguard shortage for more than a decade. They even started to hire international lifeguards in the last years through J1 visa programs. Salaries are not getting higher and the city just leaves some beaches unguarded. (Translated to the EMS field: existing units will simply get even more over loaded while salaries won't necessarily get higher).

About the relation between salaries and increase in the education level... I agree with R/r 911 on the fact that EMS personnel has to improve its training and education level. However, based on what happens in the Aquatic Safety field... The education increases once the salaries and career opportunities has increased. The fact that most of the major lifeguard services ended up becoming divisions of fire departments not only not affected the profession's growth but on the contrary, it has been helping its development since then. Done that while remaining specialized agencies. Nowadays the large lifeguard services in Southern California, Florida and Hawaii are part of 9-1-1 systems, handle ALS, dive team responses, flood rescue, cliff rescue, public education programs, ... Most of these agencies require its guards to become EMT-paramedics, get trained in marine fire fighting, law enforcement, technical rescue, advanced SCUBA diving, ... A few 'Associate Degree in Lifeguarding' programs have already been created which eventually will multiply.

As R/r 911 and others said in many other threads here at EMTLife, promoting the profession and 'lobbying' is a key. The lifeguard services in the above mentioned states invest a lot in promoting the profession through "Junior Lifeguard" programs, public education programs, lifesaving competitions, and reality TV shows. (The latter generating addittional revenue and new sponsor opportunities). As salaries rise, recruiting stops being a problem. Actually, hundreds of outstanding candidates show up at competitive tryouts where only a few vacancies are available. (Unlike the situations of most publis pools, waterparks and waterfronts in the US -always facing worsening recruitment problems, which lead to decrease of education and training levels & requirements, hiring of international guards, etc.). Ranks have been created (Senior LG, Marine Safety Officer, Sgt., Lt., Captain, Section Chief, ...). More and more year-round positions are opened.  -Of course politicians love to share credit of succesful public relations campaigns and extra revenue from sponsoring contracts which make them to want to support lifeguards more than before. There are of course some former lifeguards working in high city/county/state positions which helps getting support to the profession. A national unity through local unions, and regional chapters of the main association (which by no means requires putting discussions and debates among agencies and chapters on the side) is another main component.

Since I'm not even an EMT-B, I don't understand why EMS hasn't been able to go in that direction yet. I mean, I understand all the problems that act as obstucles for that to happen, but I consider there are plenty of EMS professionals aware about the 'big picture' that includes a professional public service complemented by volunteer solutions for specific areas and private providers/contractors as relief to governmental budgets. Some of them often expressing their knowledge and expertise here at EMTLife.  

One thing is for sure, these problems won't get sovled only with time. If more efforts are put in educating the public ("the customers") about the importance of better education and larger budgets in EMS -and how essential is its role in the community, surely the general situation will improve for the benefit of all parties involved. -(the members of the general public as costumers; the EMS workers getting better conditions and salaries; politicians - being able to get credit from improvements in such an important emergency service appreciated by taxpayers/potential voters).

Hope NYC EMS gets back on its feets soon and the general national situation gets healed for once and for all! 

(Not all kids prefer police cars and fire trucks over ambulances) 


Guri


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## JPINFV

LIFEGUARDAVIDAS said:


> The lifeguard services in the above mentioned states invest a lot in promoting the profession through "Junior Lifeguard" programs, public education programs, lifesaving competitions, and reality TV shows.



That's a good point. Every year, the same story makes the 6 o'clock news about the start of life guard testing complete with action shots of people jumping off piers or racing in a group towards the waterline for the swim test. Same story, essentially the same shots, different year. I wonder what would happen if EMS agencies asked the news media to show up to major active (not class room) training sessions, such as EVOC.


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## Zephyr

BossyCow said:


> ...
> 
> EMS has fought the idea of unionization. But if the profession is to change, it needs to combine and organize with other systems and do it as a unit. Otherwise we'll just be pissing in the ocean.



EMTs, Paramedics, and Fire Inspectors are represented by one union in NYC.


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## Zephyr

mikeylikesit said:


> quit complaining, when we took the job, when we went to school it was never about the money and we knew it. i quit a job making way more money than i do know with less hours and less workload...i don't complain about something i knew about in advance.



I'm not complaining.  I thought about becoming an EMT for almost 3 years before I attended EMT school.  I spoke with EMTs and Paramedics and picked their brains every chance I got.  I still do.  If I was in it for more money, I wouldn't have left the military, where I was getting paid way more than these guys do...


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## Zephyr

triemal04 said:


> Why is anyone so shocked about this?  Or a better question is, why does this always (yes always; it happens many times on these type of forums) get people in such a fury when it happens it NYC but not when it happens on a routine basis across the country?  Reality check people, 27+K a year is a lot more than what many, many basics make nationwide.  Yes, the cost of living is much higher, but the job that is being done is still the same.



The job is not the same.  How many calls does your unit respond to per day?  Per year?  How does this number compare to FDNY EMS' numbers?



triemal04 said:


> You may want to remember that an EMT-basic really is the most bottom rung on the ladder; like it or not they are about the most disposable and easily found person in the medical field.  Why pay them more when there are thousands more out there?  Hell, why pay them more even if there aren't?  They don't get taught enough to justify making a huge salary.  If that's offensive to some...that's how it is.  You need to get used to it, because it won't be changing anytime soon.



There aren't "thousands more"-- FDNY EMS is going through a shortage right now, thus the mandatory OT.



triemal04 said:


> The paramedic salary is pretty crappy, but, it's really on par with what both FDNY firefighters make, as well as NYPD cops.  Should it be more?  Sure, but it is a civil service job, as well as an unrepresented and unappreciated one.  So that's two strikes, and the lack of a mandatory degree is the third.
> 
> If you want changes, increase the requirements for education, increase the public awareness, and realize that bottum rung providers will never make that much.  Simple fact of life.
> 
> http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/community/ems_employment.shtml#emt_salary
> http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/community/ff_salary_benefits_080106.shtml
> http://www.nypd2.org/html/recruit/salary.html



True that.  Contact your representatives.  I've contacted everyone from the Mayor on up to the White House about this shortage.  Maybe if they read enough of our emails and letters, they'll get the hint BEFORE the next MCI hits our country.


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## Zephyr

"Really? Then why is it even a topic? The pay there is much better than in other parts of the country, so really, if it's not a big deal, why bother bringing it up?"

But are other parts of the country equal in cost of living?  I posted the article because I want to raise awareness-- NOT awareness of the low salaries, but awareness of the fact that low salary is a major contributor to the SHORTAGE.  What do you think is going to happen at the next MCI if there is a shortage of EMTs?  Sadly, AFTER the next MCI is most likely when the government will grant FDNY EMTs a raise and increase recruitment.


"So it's good that untrained people are providing the majority of the care? Hmmm..."

FDNY EMTs are NOT untrained.  As was mentioned earlier, they have to go through EMT school TWICE, and then some.


"Proves my point again. If all they do is toss someone in the back and aren't able to do anything, why should they get paid more? As an EMt-B, in 5 minutes, what would they do for a critical ALS call? Drive faster?"

Who says that FDNY EMTs don't do anything?


"...My point being, if you look at the tables, the salaries are comparable, and any moron can become an EMT-B. Many do. So why pay them more?"

How is that comparable?  FDNY EMTs make appoximately $10K less per year than firefighters.


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## Ridryder911

It goes back to the old adage called professionalism. 

Everyone in EMS wants to discuss how "recent or new" our profession is. I say B.S.! It is now over 40+ near half a century years old & I know for a fact EMS of FDNY is over 34+ years. As a boy scout, one of my mentors in life was Chief Paramedic for FDNY. So they have been around for a few days, now compare this to the computer division(s), and other recent industry divisions that is a specialty that has better pay and benefits as well more professional. 

So the analogy or  should I say :... "excuse" of us being "new".. is just that. 

Now, what we DO NOT see in comparison to other professions is an active participation in promoting and regulating ourselves. Very few become active in lobbying, legislation, and promoting their own profession. They ASSume that someone else is going to do it for them. The other detrimental point is they as well will take what is given to them and settle for it. Look how many never finish something as little as completing a Paramedic program or as easy as an Associate Degree. Again, full of multiple excuses but in reality, if it was really a priority in life, one would do so ; just alike every decent paying profession. 

Let's face it folks .. we in EMS are lazy! Not the physical type. No, we will work literally hundred of hours of work thus becoming sleep deprived, endangering our lives & those of others meanwhile attempt work multiple jobs, just make enough to pay for electricity. For what? ... So we can complain how "bad we have it" and yet do nothing about it. Seriously folks, do we not see something wrong here? 

EMS is so fragmented, at this time it cannot be a profession in the U.S. Varying EMT levels, education and  roles. EMT's maybe in shortage at NYC at this time, but give them a couple of weeks and they will be over flooded with applicants. Unfortunately it is our own fault. We make the EMT level so easy to enter and complete, then for some reason we promote it to anyone that has a desire for excitement, or even worse; to promote into another career.  That  of course results into an abundance of  "certified EMT's". Management is quite aware of this phenomenon, and uses the numbers to their advantage. 
Yes, we are own enemy. Why? Because we do nothing about it. 

Why is that? 

I believe it is for several reasons: 

Most EMT's do not place much into their profession. They place very little time and money into it, therefore what else could one expect? Seriously, a few weeks of training, and the costs less than some televisions, and they expect a decent paying profession in return? 

We continue to allow anyone to enter EMS programs. Then for some reason encourage those that are NOT really interested into EMS to "take the course" to help them into another profession or take it for fun and then perform the services for free!. What, no decent wages or jobs? Duh! 

I met last week with a group of professional EMS educators (NOT instructors). This topic of course was being discussed. Almost in all other healthcare education courses, professionalism (promoting one's industry, standards & ethics) is always discussed in every course level. That is every 8 to 16 weeks in some form it is re-emphasized and reinforced. Students are mandated to participate in legislative and professional activities through associations or some form of class participation. How many students in your class became members of an EMT association or better yet: are you even a member? 

Again, EMT's have a strange demeanor. We like to cry, whine, even pout about how bad things are but when it comes to time to effective change things, no one wants to participate. They much rather work for peanuts (and be able to complain about it) than to actually change things. WHY? ... So unfortunately, we get what we deserve.... 

R/r 911


----------



## firecoins

triemal04 said:


> I'm not sure what you were trying to get at there.  If you really think that an EMT-B in NYC should be paid more, then please explain.  Or, if you want to just focus on medics, explain why, if they only have limited abilities to care for their patients, they should be getting more.  (don't know if that's the case, but you sure seem to imply that's how it is)



Yes the EMT-B needs to get paid more.  I thought being the workhourse of the NYC system was clear enough for anyone to understand. Apparently not. NYC EMTs don't do nothing for their patients. One should get paid for the work they do.  Garbage men, beaticians and cops are all nice professions but having nothing to do with EMT-Bs.

As I mentioned before, NYC EMT-Bs have several months more training than the 150 hour class so how are they untrained?


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## triemal04

Zephyr and Firecoins-

So far you still haven't given a real good reason for increasing the pay for EMT-B's in NYC.  The closest you've come (Zephyr) is with the cost of living; yes, that does make a difference, you're right.  But, it's possible to argue that that allready has been taken into account; a basic in NYC makes MORE than almost anywhere else.  While it may not be enough to live on there, it's not enough to live on elsewhere either, for the most part.  See my point?  

So what if they take an EMT-B course twice?  Honestly, who cares?  Unless there is a huge amount of information in their academy and they end up treating their pt's much more than every other basic in New York (and the US) then...who cares if they essentially took the course twice; it's a nothing course.  What training does an EMT-B in NYC get that people elsewhere don't?  What makes them so special as a Basic?

Firecoins has insinuated that basics (and maybe paramedics) do very little in the way of treatements, and have transport times that are about 5 minutes long.  If this isn't the case, then again, what do basics do there that they don't do elsewhere that makes them deserve so much money?

If you think that EMT-B's should get paid for the work they do...well what work is that?  Seriously, it doesn't matter if you are taking ALS pt's for a 5 minute trip to the hospital if all you do is slap a NRB on them and say "hold on."  

Neither of you has yet to explain what makes an EMT-B so special in NYC.  Until you can do that, the only arguement you have for increased pay is the cost of living, which, like I said, it could be argued has allready been taken into account.

(I meant comparable salaries for paramedics, cops and firefighters, sorry; yes, an EMT makes much less, but again, they do less)


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## BossyCow

Zephyr said:


> EMTs, Paramedics, and Fire Inspectors are represented by one union in NYC.



But, by having representation in with a group, instead of unique to your classification doesn't mean your skills, your training and your specific job needs are going to be evenly represented. 

At one time my husband (EMT-P) was in a department that had more FF than EMS personnel, the union regularly allowed contract language that didn't fully address the medics being up all night while the FF's slept. They ended up getting about $1 an hour more than the FF for being up all night


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## firecoins

triemal04 said:


> Zephyr and Firecoins-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So far you still haven't given a real good reason for increasing the pay for EMT-B's in NYC.  The closest you've come (Zephyr) is with the cost of living; yes, that does make a difference, you're right.  But, it's possible to argue that that allready has been taken into account; a basic in NYC makes MORE than almost anywhere else.  While it may not be enough to live on there, it's not enough to live on elsewhere either, for the most part.  See my point?
> 
> 
> 
> No I don't see your point.  Obviouysly you haven't seen mine. Come work i n NYC for so much money. Come show us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So what if they take an EMT-B course twice?  Honestly, who cares?  Unless there is a huge amount of information in their academy and they end up treating their pt's much more than every other basic in New York (and the US) then...who cares if they essentially took the course twice; it's a nothing course.  What training does an EMT-B in NYC get that people elsewhere don't?  What makes them so special as a Basic?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And they PT and evoc training.  Driving in NYC is just like anywhere else.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Firecoins has insinuated that basics (and maybe paramedics) do very little in the way of treatements, and have transport times that are about 5 minutes long.  If this isn't the case, then again, what do basics do there that they don't do elsewhere that makes them deserve so much money?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So much money?  What is so much money?  EMTs should get paid for the work they do. Its not a very concept.  They have very high call volume compared to many places.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you think that EMT-B's should get paid for the work they do...well what work is that?  Seriously, it doesn't matter if you are taking ALS pt's for a 5 minute trip to the hospital if all you do is slap a NRB on them and say "hold on."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your ignorance is showing. NYC EMTS have a high call volume.  Carrying patients dows a 5 to 10 story walk is a way of life that rarely exists outside of urban areas andcan be very specific to NY.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neither of you has yet to explain what makes an EMT-B so special in NYC.  Until you can do that, the only arguement you have for increased pay is the cost of living, which, like I said, it could be argued has allready been taken into account.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> actually I have.  Sorry. Cost of living is one thing and the extemely high call volume.  They deserve a raise.
Click to expand...


----------



## Jon

Why does a FF make more than a paramedic? Also... the FF page lists "fringe" pay... is it similar for medics, or do FF's get LOTS more money?

I know they get to dress up and go put out fires... but medics spend more time working, right?


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## triemal04

Firecoins-
You aren't saying anything new here, sorry.  And you still aren't listing any valid reasons to increase the pay for an EMT-B.  What should it be in your opinion, anyway?

Let me clear up my first point.  A Basic in almost any part of the US will not be making enough to live off of, and they make less than a Basic in NYC.  So, NYC has a high cost of living, but a basic makes more, so the cost of living apparently has been factored in.  Even though they don't make enough to live off of, almost none do, and since the job is the same...they get paid essentially the same.  

Do you honestly think that because they have to do some PT during their training that means they should be getting paid more?  Oh wow.  That is seriously funny.  And you've said it twice now!  Come on, you're joking, right?  The EVOC...don't basic's drive elsewhere, and in urban areas, or areas with worse traffic than NYC?  Nothing new there.

High call volume isn't enough.  It should be grounds for maybe a bit more...but then, they allready get a bit more.  If you want them to make more money, you need to explain what the work they do is, and not just cop out with "they run a lot of calls."  Seriously, unless a basic is able to do a whole lot more than their counterparts in Bumbledump, Iowa, why should they get paid so much more?

So what if they are the "workhorse?"  All that means is that the system is broken, and you'd like to perpetuate that by increasing pay for people that can't even treat their pt's.  

The best I can get out of your arguements is that basics can't do anything except carry heavy loads to the ambulance, and then the hospital.  If that's the case, what should probably happen is the city should contract with a moving company to run their BLS ambulances; those guys make better money and would be doing the same job according to you.


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## Zephyr

Jon said:


> Why does a FF make more than a paramedic? Also... the FF page lists "fringe" pay... is it similar for medics, or do FF's get LOTS more money?
> 
> I know they get to dress up and go put out fires... but medics spend more time working, right?



"Fringe pay" is supposed to be OT, holiday pay, etc.


----------



## Zephyr

triemal04 said:


> Firecoins-
> You aren't saying anything new here, sorry.  And you still aren't listing any valid reasons to increase the pay for an EMT-B.  What should it be in your opinion, anyway?
> 
> Let me clear up my first point.  A Basic in almost any part of the US will not be making enough to live off of, and they make less than a Basic in NYC.  So, NYC has a high cost of living, but a basic makes more, so the cost of living apparently has been factored in.  Even though they don't make enough to live off of, almost none do, and since the job is the same...they get paid essentially the same.
> 
> Do you honestly think that because they have to do some PT during their training that means they should be getting paid more?  Oh wow.  That is seriously funny.  And you've said it twice now!  Come on, you're joking, right?  The EVOC...don't basic's drive elsewhere, and in urban areas, or areas with worse traffic than NYC?  Nothing new there.
> 
> High call volume isn't enough.  It should be grounds for maybe a bit more...but then, they allready get a bit more.  If you want them to make more money, you need to explain what the work they do is, and not just cop out with "they run a lot of calls."  Seriously, unless a basic is able to do a whole lot more than their counterparts in Bumbledump, Iowa, why should they get paid so much more?
> 
> So what if they are the "workhorse?"  All that means is that the system is broken, and you'd like to perpetuate that by increasing pay for people that can't even treat their pt's.
> 
> The best I can get out of your arguements is that basics can't do anything except carry heavy loads to the ambulance, and then the hospital.  If that's the case, what should probably happen is the city should contract with a moving company to run their BLS ambulances; those guys make better money and would be doing the same job according to you.



Do EMTs and Paramedics in your area train in and perform HAZTAC?  Or Dignitary Protective Details (providing around the clock close proximity medical backup to visiting dignitaries such as the President, the Pope, campaigning senators, the Dalai Lama, etc. alongside and training with Secret Service agents, etc.)?  These are only two of the other additional missions that FDNY EMS performs.


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## triemal04

Zephyr said:


> Do EMTs and Paramedics in your area train in and perform HAZTAC?  Or Dignitary Protective Details (providing around the clock close proximity medical backup to visiting dignitaries such as the President, the Pope, campaigning senators, the Dalai Lama, etc. alongside and training with Secret Service agents, etc.)?  These are only two of the other additional missions that FDNY EMS performs.


Zephyr...you're doing the same thing that Firecoins is!  Alebit on a slightly different track.  (and yes, there are paramedics in my area that are on Haz-Mat teams and SWAT teams)  Does every EMT-B working for FDNY get trained (and by trained I mean fully trained, including continuing training to ensure standards) in those things?  If not (which I'm pretty damn sure is the case) then why should they get paid more?  The ones that do, sure, they should be getting an extra incentive in their pay, or paid for the extra training they do, or something anyway, that's a given (hope they are).  And medical backup doesn't mean much; you park your rig and wait for someone to get sick/injured.  How is that any different than a regular day?  (and given that almost every dignitary will have their own medical team standing by, that is a worthless arguement.  also, it happens in other cities, so dat one no workie friend)

Come on, both of you, stop with the arguements that don't mean anything!  All I've gotten so far is that EMT-B's run a lot of calls that have extremely short transport times and do extremely little, if anything, for their pt's, besides carrying objects, sometimes for longer distances, to the ambulance.  Oh, and they can drive, and in their initial department training had to do PT.    No different than anywhere else.

An EMT-B is in the medical field.  If they aren't doing anything medically different for their pt's beyond what every other EMT is doing, then why pay them more?  (cost of living has allready been covered)  If all they really do is work in a "you call we haul," "load and go with no treatements" system, then really, why even have them?  Hire some moving companies, they'd be doing essentially the same job.

It's funny, I first meant that as a joke.  But now, with the inability of either of you to explain what it is that an EMT-B does in NYC that others don't do, or show that they really do treat people, I'm begining to get more serious.


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## Zephyr

*a recommended solution*

A simple analogy:

In the Marine Corps for example, Marines can become qualified in single or multiple skills, just like in most careers.  E.g. A Marine who successfully completes jump/airborne school receives an additional MOS (Military Occupational Specialty) and gets to wear "jump wings" on his uniform.  Another Marine who successfully completes dive/SCUBA school receives a different MOS and gets to wear a "dive bubble", etc.  A Marine who completes both jump and dive schools receives yet a different MOS upon completion of the second school.  This we call "dual cool".  The Marines who go through these schools do it not only because their jobs require most of them to do so, but because they get paid extra once they're certified.  
Plus, there's the extra prestige of wearing cool stuff on your uniform 

This obviously occurs in the other branches of service, and in many other career fields.  I know for a fact that a year or two ago, at least one of the counties in California was hiring dual certified FF/EMS personnel.  I looked at the job details, and the pay looked GOOD-- not six figures or anything, but enough to make an old(er) Marine like me think more about switching job fields.

I didn't switch to get a raise.  I switched for a CHANGE.  If I was thinking strictly about money, I would've stayed on active duty (long enough to retire soon) and I'd still be making much more than what our poor NYC EMTs, Paramedics, FFs, sanitation workers, and cops are making.  

Below are some figures I got from FDNY's site at 

http://nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/general/mission.shtml .

According to FDNY's site, in FY 2003, FDNY had "892,017 Fire Apparatus responses to 432,969 fires, non fire emergencies and medical calls" and "1,267,340 EMS Unit responses to 1,088,378 medical emergencies".  At the time, there were "10,725 Uniformed Firefighters and Fire Officers" and
"2,740 EMTs and Paramedics".

What were the rest of the 10,725 Uniformed Firefighters and Fire Officers doing while the FFs were responding to the 432,969 fires et al?  Why couldn't they have been assisting the greatly outnumbered 2,740 EMTs and Paramedics in their vastly higher number of 1,088,378 calls?  Because they don't GET PAID to do so.

Forgive my ignorance-- I'm new to all this EMS stuff.  This has most likely been brought up before, but I recommend that we encourage FDNY FFs to cross train into EMS, and that we encourage more EMS personnel to cross train into FF.  How?  Once dual certified, we give them a desirable raise.  Now, instead of having an EMS shortage, we can hopefully bump up the numbers to gradually solve the shortage problem.  Then as FDNY attrition occurs from the normal retirements, deaths, people quitting, etc., we can downsize the department to a smaller number of dual certified, and the remaining (but less paid) singly certified, personnel.  Kill two birds with one stone.

I don't claim to have invented this solution.  As you know, this is already going on in many areas as we type and read these posts.  (Now I just started another flame war over the "keep FF personnel separate from EMS" vs. the "combine FF with EMS into one person" debate.)  What are your thoughts, as I doze off from lack of sleep?


----------



## Zephyr

triemal04 said:


> (and given that almost every dignitary will have their own medical team standing by, that is a worthless arguement.  also, it happens in other cities, so dat one no workie friend)



Not in NYC.  I personally spent two hours talking to a HAZTAC Paramedic who does Dignitary Protecdtion.  FDNY EMS provides medical support, NOT the dignitary.

Jeez, all I did was post a newspaper article.  I'm new to all this EMS stuff...


----------



## triemal04

Zephyr said:


> Not in NYC.  I personally spent two hours talking to a HAZTAC Paramedic who does Dignitary Protecdtion.  FDNY EMS provides medical support, NOT the dignitary.
> 
> Jeez, all I did was post a newspaper article.  I'm new to all this EMS stuff...


Yes, Zephyr, even in NYC it happens.  It doesn't happen all the time, didn't mean to imply that, but as the importance/wealth/role/whatever of the dignitary increases, the odds of them having their own medical support also increases.  This doesn't mean that the local service won't still have units there for standby; most likely they will.  They just won't always be responsible for anyone that important.  And not every EMT or Paramedic in FDNY is trained to do that; like your Marine analogy; the ones who are get paid for the extra training (or damn well better be compensated in some way or another) the ones who aren't get nothing extra.

If you don't know much about EMS then this can be a hard issue to understand at first glance.  But, in reality, an EMT-B can do extremely little, if anything, to treat a patient.  The training last about 120-150 hours and amounts to very little.  Simply put, they get paid so little because they do so little; this is the MEDICAL field; if you aren't helping your patients MEDICALLY, then why should you be paid more?  To go with your Marine analogy, consider the EMT-B's the privates of EMS; trained to the lowest level and with the least responsibility.

My advice right now:  step back a bit until you understand how the system works.  Not just in NYC, but how EMS across the country is run.  It'll start to clear up why a EMT-B makes so little, and why that is pretty much appropriate.


----------



## Outbac1

Everyone who goes to work should make a livable wage. BUT they don't. How much does one make selling coffee at a Tim Hortons or Dunkins, or pumping gas etc?  I bet it is minimum wage, (if there is one), and that doesn’t buy much around here.  Generically EMT-Bs are ambulance drivers with a better first aid course. They do a lot of the EMS workload and it would be hard to run any system without them. But in many places there are lots to choose from, and that makes it a buyers market. The more trained in any job, trade or profession one is, the better the pay and benefits tend to be. 

  Until you can get your collective states and national regulatory agencies, (or whatever they are called), together, basic and minimum is what it is going to be. If you can't get your act together nationally at least get it together on a state level. Raise your minimum standards and the required education. That alone will get rid of a lot of the surplus, part time, and partially interested people in it. This will make more room for those who are serious about EMS as a career. 

  We did it here in Canada in 2001 and gradually the provinces are getting with the program and making the changes. Example New Brunswick,  (population 750,000), has upped their minimum std. to PCP. The current ambulance drivers have 3 years to upgrade or leave. There are about 150 new PCP students graduating this month. By Christmas they probably will all have jobs at about $20.00/hr.

  If you want the change you will have to make it happen. It won't change by itself. The public has to know what they have and what they could have. I bet few would want someone with a lead foot when they could have someone actually treat them at home and enroute. 

 This is not meant as a slur to anyone, just constructive criticism. I know from reading this site there are many EMT-Bs who are hard working and dedicated to their job and patients, and many who try to upgrade their knowledge both formally and informally. 


 The US was a great leader in prehospital health care but has sat idle for too long and has been passed by many other countries.  Its time you caught up.


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## Ridryder911

Yadda, yadda, yadda... It does not mean crap where or what your the service is. EMT pay is crap, for a reason.. too many of them. The course is set to a basic science level, and very little is taught more than advanced first aid. Sorry, I don't care if they personally transport or carry 500,000 people, walk through chemicals, or take care of the Pope. The responsibility and the expected training level is the same. Provide immediate care safely enough for ALS to arrive and then to stabilize for transport. 

One could justify and make the same point for the EMT in BFE, Montana that has to dissemble the combine, and be the sole provider for transporting the patient over 75 miles. 

Cross training Fire Fighters to do EMS is a BAD idea. The same BAD IDEA of having EMS in a Fire Service. Two different and distinctive professions. Why not place EMS in Sanitation Department? Makes as much sense.... EMS is health care.. period. Ironically, look at JEMS and EMS front cover.. It is nauseating to see so much helmets and bunker gear at one scene. Sorry folks, I have been at MCI's. Fortunately, we did not have so much "help". I counted in one picture alone at least 30 helmets on one EMS call.. Now, the bad thing. No one was doing anything but the medics and a very few associates. The rest was standing there.. of course on the clock, justifying themselves. 

Should FD's assist and help EMS, yes! Should EMS assist and help Fire Services on responses again you bet! That is it. Look North at our neighbors. Good clean interpretation of what agencies roles are. Fire Service is a support & addition to EMS, not replacement, not in charge, not the provider of it. Yes, Fire Service can be MFR, as their role should be, but to hand off to EMS. The same as if EMS should respond to structure fires and HazMat, but definitely should not suppress or handle the primary situation, one would not even consider such. 

If EMS needs assistance on a call, then other agencies should be involved to assist. The public interest should be the main goal, not the individuals "job". Just alike FD need to assist, Law Enforcement should as well. It does not take a lot of medical training to carry and lift patients. 

We are making this too hard. Allow the ones that are educated the most care for the patient, allow each other to assist to their limits as needed. It is not that hard.. really. 

R/r 911


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## Outbac1

Ridryder911 said:


> Yadda, yadda, yadda... It does not mean crap where or what your the service is. EMT pay is crap, for a reason.. too many of them. The course is set to a basic science level, and very little is taught more than advanced first aid. Sorry, I don't care if they personally transport or carry 500,000 people, walk through chemicals, or take care of the Pope. The responsibility and the expected training level is the same. Provide immediate care safely enough for ALS to arrive and then to stabilize for transport.
> 
> One could justify and make the same point for the EMT in BFE, Montana that has to dissemble the combine, and be the sole provider for transporting the patient over 75 miles.
> 
> Cross training Fire Fighters to do EMS is a BAD idea. The same BAD IDEA of having EMS in a Fire Service. Two different and distinctive professions. Why not place EMS in Sanitation Department? Makes as much sense.... EMS is health care.. period. Ironically, look at JEMS and EMS front cover.. It is nauseating to see so much helmets and bunker gear at one scene. Sorry folks, I have been at MCI's. Fortunately, we did not have so much "help". I counted in one picture alone at least 30 helmets on one EMS call.. Now, the bad thing. No one was doing anything but the medics and a very few associates. The rest was standing there.. of course on the clock, justifying themselves.
> 
> Should FD's assist and help EMS, yes! Should EMS assist and help Fire Services on responses again you bet! That is it. Look North at our neighbors. Good clean interpretation of what agencies roles are. Fire Service is a support & addition to EMS, not replacement, not in charge, not the provider of it. Yes, Fire Service can be MFR, as their role should be, but to hand off to EMS. The same as if EMS should respond to structure fires and HazMat, but definitely should not suppress or handle the primary situation, one would not even consider such.
> 
> If EMS needs assistance on a call, then other agencies should be involved to assist. The public interest should be the main goal, not the individuals "job". Just alike FD need to assist, Law Enforcement should as well. It does not take a lot of medical training to carry and lift patients.
> 
> We are making this too hard. Allow the ones that are educated the most care for the patient, allow each other to assist to their limits as needed. It is not that hard.. really.
> 
> R/r 911



Well said.


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## Zephyr

Anyway, as I mentioned before, I'm more worried about the kind of treatment our citizens will be receiving as this shortage gets worse.  Just wait till the next MCI...


http://newyorkcityonline.blogspot.com/2008/06/ambulance-emt-staffing-condition-is.html

Wednesday, June 4, 2008
Ambulance EMT Staffing Condition Is Sick

This summer, try not to have a medical emergency. It may be more serious than you can imagine. That’s because there will be a shortage of Emergency Medical Service Technicians in New York City. Many have left for higher paying jobs with the NYFD as firefighters. That information comes from Nicholas Scoppetta, NYFD Fire Commissioner. He still maintains however that his ambulance corps will be able to cope with the shortfall with overtime. Pat Bahnken, president of Local 2507 which represents 2,700 EMT’s believes otherwise. Let’s hope that patients don’t get caught short in this juggling act.

Posted on www.NEWYORKCITYonline.com by: The Big Apple Blogger at 6/04/2008 10:50:00 AM


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## firecoins

Ridryder911 said:


> Yadda, yadda, yadda... It does not mean crap where or what your the service is. EMT pay is crap, for a reason.. too many of them.
> R/r 911



FDNY has a *shortag*e of EMT-Bs.


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## firecoins

Ridryder911 said:


> Yadda, yadda, yadda... It does not mean crap where or what your the service is. EMT pay is crap, for a reason.. too many of them. The course is set to a basic science level, and very little is taught more than advanced first aid. Sorry, I don't care if they personally transport or carry 500,000 people, walk through chemicals, or take care of the Pope. The responsibility and the expected training level is the same. Provide immediate care safely enough for ALS to arrive and then to stabilize for transport.



As I said. FDNY has a shortage as in too few.  

I really don't have a problem with EMT-Bs JUST knowing advanced first aid. We aren't expecting EMT-Bs to do brain surgery. We don't do cardic catheriztions in then field yet. EMT-Bs in NYC will do just fine for now. Only problem is we don't have enough because the pay is too low. Simple solution, increase the pay.  NYPD is having the same problem. Rookie pay is not enough.  Guess what, cop shortage. Seems to be a trend in NYC.


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## Ridryder911

firecoins said:


> As I said. FDNY has a shortage as in too few.
> 
> I really don't have a problem with EMT-Bs JUST knowing advanced first aid. We aren't expecting EMT-Bs to do brain surgery. We don't do cardic catheriztions in then field yet. EMT-Bs in NYC will do just fine for now. Only problem is we don't have enough because the pay is too low.



You only have a shortage at one place, not that there is true shortage of EMT's. Much difference in statement and truths. Not enough shortage to cause a demand to change the pay or requirements apparently. Just because GM has a shortage of mechanics, does not mean there is a shortage of mechanics. 

First, no one ever expected brain surgery, and FYI it is spelled cardiac catheterization (angiogram)  . Just don't the expect pay or even a job market for such demands, with the current training you will see the end results. 

R/r 911


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## triemal04

firecoins said:


> As I said. FDNY has a shortage as in too few.
> 
> I really don't have a problem with EMT-Bs JUST knowing advanced first aid. We aren't expecting EMT-Bs to do brain surgery. We don't do cardic catheriztions in then field yet. EMT-Bs in NYC will do just fine for now. Only problem is we don't have enough because the pay is too low. Simple solution, increase the pay.  NYPD is having the same problem. Rookie pay is not enough.  Guess what, cop shortage. Seems to be a trend in NYC.


So, are you ever really going to explain why an EMT-B deserves to be paid more money for what (little) they do?


----------



## firecoins

triemal04 said:


> So, are you ever really going to explain why an EMT-B deserves to be paid more money for what (little) they do?



When someone dies because NYC EMS was understaffed you can tell the family how little EMT-Bs do. I don't seem to think they will care.


----------



## firecoins

Ridryder911 said:


> You only have a shortage at one place, not that there is true shortage of EMT's.


It just so happens Rid, this thread is about that one place. The thread is titled "New York's Poorest".  You can start another thread about other places.   



> Much difference in statement and truths. Not enough shortage to cause a demand to change the pay or requirements apparently.


There is a demand to increase the pay.  NYC will end up doing it but as usual, NYC is slow to react to problems. We have been waiting for the FDNY to improve its FD radio system since 1993.  Things in NY take time. 



> First, no one ever expected brain surgery, and FYI it is spelled cardiac catheterization (angiogram)  . Just don't the expect pay or even a job market for such demands, with the current training you will see the end results. R/r 911


We will see people trained in advance first aid make typos?


----------



## Ridryder911

firecoins said:


> When someone dies because NYC EMS was understaffed you can tell the family how little EMT-Bs do. I don't seem to think they will care.



The same question could be asked, if they really cared, would they be understaffed and underpaid? This is not isolated to NYC, but it is a National Trend. The only reason you read about it is because it involves the almighty FDNY. Until the public recognize and realize the need of EMS is an important as Fire Services, Police Enforcement, then nothing will be changed. 

In my state alone, we have lost EMS (40 in <7 years) and caused responses up to now almost an hour in length where it was < 15 minutes before loosing their EMS. Do they care? Apparently not. Apparently, the "right" person has not died or been severely injured yet.. 

Again, until we can prove that we are essential part of public and health services, nothing will change. Along with this we must provide more than "first-aid" education level care, other wise the public is paying more than they get. 

R/r 911


----------



## Ridryder911

firecoins said:


> It just so happens Rid, this thread is about that one place. The thread is titled "New York's Poorest".  You can start another thread about other places.
> 
> There is a demand to increase the pay.  NYC will end up doing it but as usual, NYC is slow to react to problems. We have been waiting for the FDNY to improve its FD radio system since 1993.  Things in NY take time.
> 
> 
> We will see people trained in *advance* first aid make typos?



 "advanced"....

Point being, again the Coastal line assumes their the only ones. Really, there is land between the two coast lines. 

The thread pointed out the poor pay of EMT's in NYC with the FDNY.. so? Like that is news in almost any given town, from anywhere. Actually, it would be easier to point out areas that pay well to those in EMS, now that would be news worthy!

R/r 911


----------



## mikeylikesit

Ridryder911 said:


> The same question could be asked, if they really cared, would they be understaffed and underpaid? This is not isolated to NYC, but it is a National Trend. The only reason you read about it is because it involves the almighty FDNY. Until the public recognize and realize the need of EMS is an important as Fire Services, Police Enforcement, then nothing will be changed.
> 
> In my state alone, we have lost EMS (40 in <7 years) and caused responses up to now almost an hour in length where it was < 15 minutes before loosing their EMS. Do they care? Apparently not. Apparently, the "right" person has not died or been severely injured yet..
> 
> Again, until we can prove that we are essential part of public and health services, nothing will change. Along with this we must provide more than "first-aid" education level care, other wise the public is paying more than they get.
> 
> R/r 911


Good point, like for instance all the chopper down stories barely make headlines. but if a Fireman gets hurt in the line of duty(not even killed) it makes a National Headline. But the Firefighters have a ton of training whether it be Hazmat  FF1 and FF2 plus the academy, police have atleast 60 college credits. the thing that i think is missing is that you don't ever see EMS putting their lives on the line like the PD and Fire do.


----------



## firecoins

Ridryder911 said:


> The same question could be asked, if they really cared, would they be understaffed and underpaid? This is not isolated to NYC, but it is a National Trend. The only reason you read about it is because it involves the almighty FDNY. Until the public recognize and realize the need of EMS is an important as Fire Services, Police Enforcement, then nothing will be changed.


 Agreed. NYC EMS does need to be freed from the FDNY and return to the independant agency pre 1993.



> Again, until we can prove that we are essential part of public and health services, nothing will change. Along with this we must provide more than "first-aid" education level care, other wise the public is paying more than they get.
> R/r 911


What is it that they should get?  Yes I agree the standard needs to be raised but it also needs to be staffed. Medics are also on short supply. They get can easily get their RN and find a job that pays more than double. Retention of EMT-Bs are difficult.  Medics are not overflowing.


----------



## Ridryder911

firecoins said:


> Agreed. NYC EMS does need to be freed from the FDNY and return to the independant agency pre 1993.
> 
> What is it that they should get?  Yes I agree the standard needs to be raised but it also needs to be staffed. Medics are also on short supply. They get can easily get their RN and find a job that pays more than double. Retention of EMT-Bs are difficult.  Medics are not overflowing.



I agree, again the same in NYC as it is any where else. Only we are loosing medics not to only nursing* (which is actually decreasing) but to Fire Services, and now to medical sales. 


* Ironically, I had a Paramedic apply for a job. He had just finished his RN and found out he made more than a new RN graduate does. As well, most hospitals now here require one year full time as a RN before they will hire you for part time. EMS does not usually count for experience. 

R/r 911


----------



## triemal04

firecoins said:


> When someone dies because NYC EMS was understaffed you can tell the family how little EMT-Bs do. I don't seem to think they will care.


So that would be a no then.

You keep falling back on your same arguements without bringing anything new to the table.  Sad.  You need to realize that part of the reason EMT-B's don't get paid much is because, in this line of work, they aren't worth much.

Like I said before:  EMT-B's belong to the MEDICAL field.  Until they increase the MEDICAL care they give to their patients, why do they deserve an increase in pay?  If all they can provide is the most basic, minimum MEDICAL care, why should they get paid more when they aren't providing quality MEDICAL care?

Seriously, the more you can't justify why they are there, the more I think just switching to a large moving company to run the BLS ambulances in NYC is approriate; train them in CPR and how to use and AED and you're almost at the same level as a Basic.  And they allready know how to drive large vehicles and carry heavy objects.

And they make more money.


----------



## firecoins

> Seriously, the more you can't justify why they are there, the more I think just switching to a large moving company to run the BLS ambulances in NYC is approriate; train them in CPR and how to use and AED and you're almost at the same level as a Basic.  And they allready know how to drive large vehicles and carry heavy objects.


.  

Can justify NYC being understaffed? Seriously when can the movers start. NYC deserves a fully staffed BLS division.  EMTs handles the B.S. jobs in NYC and there are tons. The B.S. jobs....the ones where no medical treatment on scene is required.  Yeah most calls. This frees up the ALS trucks to do the calls that require on scene medical treatment.  Since you don't work here your relying on the meaningless ALS versus BLS argument.  EMTs-Bs deserve to make as much if not more than the movers. Of course you probably think NYC should remain understaffed.


----------



## firecoins

NYC BLS only do a very high call volume while only doing advanced first aid on scene and the deserve get paid a livable wage for this.  They get paid for this work. 

Paramedics do fewer calls and perform ALS on scene IF needed and they deserve to get paid a livable yet higher wage for this. 

It is a high call volume system with mandatory OT.  You can only do so much before transport is necessary. 

You want to Monday Night Quaterback the BLS crews, there are plenty of supervisor positions open.


----------



## triemal04

firecoins said:


> .
> 
> Can justify NYC being understaffed? Seriously when can the movers start. NYC deserves a fully staffed BLS division.  EMTs handles the B.S. jobs in NYC and there are tons. The B.S. jobs....the ones where no medical treatment on scene is required.  Yeah most calls. This frees up the ALS trucks to do the calls that require on scene medical treatment.  Since you don't work here your relying on the meaningless ALS versus BLS argument.  EMTs-Bs deserve to make as much if not more than the movers. Of course you probably think NYC should remain understaffed.


Agreed, NYC does deserve to have a fully staffed EMS division, and if the only way it can be run is with BLS ambulances, then they should have enough there.  But that's not the issue here.  This doesn't have much to do with an ALS vs BLS arguement; it's simple facts; EMT-B's don't treat anything; you've said that yourself.  So why should they be making more money?  (how much more?  got a figure in mind?)



> NYC BLS only do a very high call volume while only doing advanced first aid on scene and the deserve get paid a livable wage for this. They get paid for this work.
> Paramedics do fewer calls and perform ALS on scene IF needed and they deserve to get paid a livable yet higher wage for this.
> It is a high call volume system with mandatory OT. You can only do so much before transport is necessary.
> You want to Monday Night Quaterback the BLS crews, there are plenty of supervisor positions open.


Why should someone in the MEDICAL field deserve to get paid a great salary if they aren't doing anything MEDICAL for their patients?  This is the question I've asked over and over, and you can't seem to answer.  So they work a lot...so does the counter guy at McDonald's.  Should he be making more than he is right now?  I mean, Mickey D's can't function without the slob taking your order, so by your reasoning, they should be making more money too.

This has nothing to do with Mondy morning quarterbacking (nice deflection from the actuall issue though), this has to do with your inability to explain why an EMT-B deserves to make more money than the average EMT-B in the US (when they really allready do) when they aren't helping their pt's anymore than the average EMT-B, if at all.

If this bothers you so much, why aren't you advocating that every EMT-B in every city, town, county, and burg make more money?  After all, each is doing the same job.


----------



## firecoins

triemal04 said:


> So why should they be making more money?  (how much more?  got a figure in mind?)


 Becuase they are understaffed.  They don't pay enough to fill the position.  




> Why should someone in the MEDICAL field deserve to get paid a great salary if they aren't doing anything MEDICAL for their patients? doing the same job.


No one is making a great salary. $27000 in NY doesn't get you your own apartment. You might be able to live with your parents or rent a room in someone elses's apartment.  If you think thats a great salary, your more than welcome to apply.


----------



## CFRBryan347768

triemal04 said:


> If this bothers you so much, why aren't you advocating that every EMT-B in every city, town, county, and burg make more money?  After all, each is doing the same job.



It seems that in every city,town,county, and burg all EMT-B's get paid the same ballpark amount. Well why not be the first to up the standards?


----------



## triemal04

CFRBryan347768 said:


> It seems that in every city,town,county, and burg all EMT-B's get paid the same ballpark amount. Well why not be the first to up the standards?


But why?  This is the question that firecoins refuses, and/or is unable to answer; why should an EMT-B be paid more when all they are doing is acting as a taxi or moving van for someone?  If it's due to the work load, look at my analogy of the McDonald's employee.  

Obviously, 27K isn't enough to live on in NYC; it's hard to live on that much anywhere.  But what makes an EMT-B deserve to be paid more?  It can't be the care they give to their patients, because that's minimal to non-existent.


----------



## Jon

Ok triemal... I understand what you are saying... but by that logic, I guess it would be good to know how the NYC EMT's take home pay compare with a NYC cabbie working similar hours? I don't even know where to look.


----------



## triemal04

Jon said:


> Ok triemal... I understand what you are saying... but by that logic, I guess it would be good to know how the NYC EMT's take home pay compare with a NYC cabbie working similar hours? I don't even know where to look.


To be honest I'm also curious about that, though the comparison isn't the best.  I'm betting a cab driver transports more people in a given period of time than an EMT-B does.  As well, most cab drivers that I've known (the ones who work for a company and don't own their cab's outright anyway) don't get paid much more than minimum wage.  The real money comes from the tips, and for some, a percentage of what's on the meter at the end of their shift.


----------



## firecoins

triemal04 said:


> But why?  This is the question that firecoins refuses, and/or is unable to answer; why should an EMT-B be paid more when all they are doing is acting as a taxi or moving van for someone?



They are doing BLS. Its been answered over and over. Taxi Cab drivers are not required to backboard anyone, control bleeding, sit in NYPDs central booking for 3 hours to get a patient, do CPR, carry a pt down 8 flights of stairs in a building with no elevator and yada yada yada.  And ALS doesn't paid by the procedure. If they did, they would make less then the EMT-Bs. A FDNY EMT-B get 7 to 10 calls per 8 hour shift. Its work and they need a raise.  Its that simple.


----------



## VentMedic

firecoins said:


> They are doing BLS. Its been answered over and over. Taxi Cab drivers are not required to backboard anyone, control bleeding, sit in NYPDs central booking for 3 hours to get a patient, do CPR, carry a pt down 8 flights of stairs in a building with no elevator and yada yada yada.  And ALS doesn't paid by the procedure. If they did, they would make less then the EMT-Bs. A FDNY EMT-B get 7 to 10 calls per 8 hour shift. Its work and they need a raise.  Its that simple.



firecoins,

Have you ever worked as a taxi cab driver especially in NYC?

I'll take the 8 flights of stairs while doing CPR any day over a cab driver's job. 

Education is your key to an easier job if being an EMT-B is too physically demanding. 

I would hope one has entered the field as an EMT-B with the understanding that it is barely an entry level provider position that requires minimal education and training regardless of what the flashy TV ads say. 

Sidenote of history:
There was a time in the late 1970s and 1980s when ambulances from some of the larger private companies were leased/franchised out to individuals like taxis.  Now that was a rough life.  An ambulance had to run a minimum of 24 calls in 24 hours just to break even.  Usually the "owner" was your driver and they were driven to make a profit.  30 - 35 calls in 24 hours was not an unusual shift.


----------



## CFRBryan347768

I think that people want a raise in EMS because its what they want to do their whole life, not work 4 diffrent stations, but a steady ambulance shift and have the pay be able to satisfy them, and their needs do I personally see that happening no...Maybe down the road yes. But their is really no good answer for a pay raise other than you can't directly make a living out of working EMS unless you put you time in working 2-3 other jobs. So the want for the pay rasie would be just to make more money to support your self with ONE job. I know i kind of rambled if any thign is unclear let me know and ill clear it up.


----------



## Jon

We can't look to be PAID as professional healthcare providers until we TRAIN like professional healthcare providers and we ACT like professional healthcare providers.


----------



## CFRBryan347768

Jon said:


> We can't look to be PAID as professional healthcare providers until we TRAIN like professional healthcare providers and we ACT like professional healthcare providers.



As sad as it sounds I think 100% of the EMS community will not do that until TRAINING is increased. And with training increased the weak immature will start to drop like flies.


----------



## firecoins

VentMedic said:


> firecoins,
> 
> I would hope one has entered the field as an EMT-B with the understanding that it is barely an entry level provider position that requires minimal education and training regardless of what the flashy TV ads say.
> .



NYC EMTs and Medics are professionals.  There is a shortage because the pay sucks. They deserve to get paid more. Ill post more later


----------



## Zephyr

triemal04 said:


> If this bothers you so much, why aren't you advocating that every EMT-B in every city, town, county, and burg make more money?  After all, each is doing the same job.



EVERY EMT and otherwise low-paid professional deserves to get paid more.  This is why I wrote all my government officials from the Mayor on up to the White House about EMT salaries and the shortage.  This isn't the first topic I've written them about either.  Why do actors, singers, and athletes get paid so much more to entertain us, when other people do more for people's survival & development, and risk more?  E.g. military personnel, cops, FFs, EMS, teachers, social workers, etc.


----------



## JPINFV

^
1. Entertainers and athletes produce products that make a lot more money then those you listed. When was the last time an EMT produced a 30 million dollars for an ambulance company?

2. There are much less people who are willing and able to be an entertainer or athlete.

3. Wages should be based in large part on supply and demand. Unfortunately, mandatory overtime tends to cushion an ambulance service from decreased demand since they are able to squeeze more work out of what's left of their employees.


----------



## mikeylikesit

JPINFV said:


> ^
> 3. Wages should be based in large part on supply and demand. Unfortunately, mandatory overtime tends to cushion an ambulance service from decreased demand since they are able to squeeze more work out of what's left of their employees.


Unfortunately JPINFV is correct on this one. There is a ton of demand but as long as we can work the overtime (or risk our jobs to the other thousands of people who just got out of school) then we have no room to negotiate salary.


----------



## el Murpharino

firecoins said:


> NYC EMTs and Medics are professionals.  There is a shortage because the pay sucks. They deserve to get paid more. Ill post more later



Saying you're a professional doesn't entitle one to more pay.  Not when the level of training can be completed in a matter of a few WEEKS, as opposed to college level graduates completing YEARS of schooling for maybe twice the pay you get.  You're equating the pay structure to the gravity of the job at hand and not other factors (supply vs. demand, job "glamour", volunteerism, etc.)  - and while that's a noble thought, you need to take into account that EMT's don't have not a whole lot more training than the 45 year old lady who just took the Red Cross first aid and CPR class.  I believe the comparison to garbage men and EMT was made earlier...proving this point.  I mean how dare someone who can splint, hold a 4x4 dressing on a wound, backboard, do CPR - the basics - get paid less than a lowly garbage man, who just heaves bags of trash into a truck.  True, it may not take all of 120 hours of training to be a garbage man, but there aren't thousands of garbage men driving balls-out to the garbage station everytime a garbage emergency is called.  People work in NYC for that FDNY label and patch on their shoulder, not the pay.  

The more I thought about this issue, the more I realized that as a paramedic, I too probably make about as much if not more than someone with the same amount of initial education.  Yes there are continuing education requirements needed every year, seminars and learning opportunities for me to attend...which adds to my breadth of knowledge and increases my education...but that's part of the job.  It's no secret once you get to the paramedic level that you will need to keep up on skills and the ever-increasing changes in the medical field.  Yes, my job may have more of an impact on the community than the biologist who has a masters degree, but why does that entitle me to more pay than him/her?  Put us on the same level as RN's in regards to educational requirements (length, not exactly coursework) and maybe we'll get looked at the same.  

Then again, maybe 6 years of being in the military has accustomed me to low pay, hard work, and few if any accolades or even thank you's.


----------



## Arkymedic

triemal04 said:


> Why is anyone so shocked about this? Or a better question is, why does this always (yes always; it happens many times on these type of forums) get people in such a fury when it happens it NYC but not when it happens on a routine basis across the country? Reality check people, 27+K a year is a lot more than what many, many basics make nationwide. Yes, the cost of living is much higher, but the job that is being done is still the same.
> 
> You may want to remember that an EMT-basic really is the most bottom rung on the ladder; like it or not they are about the most disposable and easily found person in the medical field. Why pay them more when there are thousands more out there? Hell, why pay them more even if there aren't? They don't get taught enough to justify making a huge salary. If that's offensive to some...that's how it is. You need to get used to it, because it won't be changing anytime soon.
> 
> The paramedic salary is pretty crappy, but, it's really on par with what both FDNY firefighters make, as well as NYPD cops. Should it be more? Sure, but it is a civil service job, as well as an unrepresented and unappreciated one. So that's two strikes, and the lack of a mandatory degree is the third.
> 
> If you want changes, increase the requirements for education, increase the public awareness, and realize that bottum rung providers will never make that much. Simple fact of life.
> 
> http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/community/ems_employment.shtml#emt_salary
> http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/community/ff_salary_benefits_080106.shtml
> http://www.nypd2.org/html/recruit/salary.html


 
27+ is much more than I clear as a medic.


----------



## triemal04

firecoins said:


> They are doing BLS. Its been answered over and over. Taxi Cab drivers are not required to backboard anyone, control bleeding, sit in NYPDs central booking for 3 hours to get a patient, do CPR, carry a pt down 8 flights of stairs in a building with no elevator and yada yada yada.  And ALS doesn't paid by the procedure. If they did, they would make less then the EMT-Bs. A FDNY EMT-B get 7 to 10 calls per 8 hour shift. Its work and they need a raise.  Its that simple.


And BLS equates to jack.  After all, it takes only 120-150 hours to learn how to do it, and in all honesty, could probably be learned in less.  So, once again, why do they deserve to make more?  Work is work, sure, but the McDonald's analogy remains...keep trying.


firecoins said:


> NYC EMTs and Medics are professionals.  There is a shortage because the pay sucks. They deserve to get paid more. Ill post more later


Are you ever going to explain why they deserve more?  It's really not because of the job they do, or the training, or the number of patients, or the care they give, so why?


CFRBryan347768 said:


> I think that people want a raise in EMS because its what they want to do their whole life, not work 4 diffrent stations, but a steady ambulance shift and have the pay be able to satisfy them, and their needs do I personally see that happening no...Maybe down the road yes. But their is really no good answer for a pay raise other than you can't directly make a living out of working EMS unless you put you time in working 2-3 other jobs. So the want for the pay rasie would be just to make more money to support your self with ONE job. I know i kind of rambled if any thign is unclear let me know and ill clear it up.


Actually, you can make a living working in EMS with only one job, be it working private, hospital-based, third service, fire, non-profit, etc etc.  You just can't do it as an EMT-B.  Which is appropriate; it's an entry-level (very entry-level and poorly trained) position which, if this is to be your career, you should be moving beyond.  Funny, every CNA that I know that works as a CNA (not in a different position where they happen to hold that cert) makes lousy pay, but none :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: about it that much because 1-they knew about it going in, and 2-most are planning on moving forward in the medical field or are just using it for a temporary job.  

Why do people in EMS, primarily at the lowest levels, think they are so special?


Arkymedic said:


> 27+ is much more than I clear as a medic.


I hope your cost of living is the least in the country, or you should be demanding a raise.


----------



## ffemt8978

triemal04 said:


> And BLS equates to jack.  After all, it takes only 120-150 hours to learn how to do it, and in all honesty, could probably be learned in less.



Interestingly, and sadly, the company I used to work for installing satellite TV systems now requires their new employees to go through 160 hours of training first.  80 in class room and 80 in the field.  Installing satellite TV is a lot easier than being in EMS but the working conditions are about the same.


----------



## triemal04

ffemt8978 said:


> Interestingly, and sadly, the company I used to work for installing satellite TV systems now requires their new employees to go through 160 hours of training first.  80 in class room and 80 in the field.  Installing satellite TV is a lot easier than being in EMS but the working conditions are about the same.


Funny.  A TV company requires more training to install a satellite TV than is required to provide medical care to people.  And yet people still whine that EMT-B's don't get paid enough.  Wonderful system we've got in the US, ain't it?


----------



## CFRBryan347768

triemal04;82161 every CNA that I know that works as a CNA (not in a different position where they happen to hold that cert) makes lousy pay said:


> Im glad your cna's plan on moving up in life because that is certainly not what most do in my area. Secondly they are working another job here.


----------



## firecoins

You know what. I am wrong. Apparently they do nothing because they don't do advanced medical procedures on scene.  Showing up, doing the basics and taking people to the appropriate facility just isn't cutting it.  Lets just replace FDNY EMTs with garbage men, satalite repairmen, movers and shakers.  They will all do a better job anyway. 

By the way NYC EMT-b...500 hours.  Get the facts right.


----------



## triemal04

firecoins said:


> You know what. I am wrong. Apparently they do nothing because they don't do advanced medical procedures on scene.  Showing up, doing the basics and taking people to the appropriate facility just isn't cutting it.  Lets just replace FDNY EMTs with garbage men, satalite repairmen, movers and shakers.  They will all do a better job anyway.
> 
> By the way NYC EMT-b...500 hours.  Get the facts right.


Touchy touchy.  It's not that they do nothing, it's that they do so little (as evidenced by your inability to give a good medical reason why they deserve a pay hike).  If you want to make higher wage, then you need to provide a higher level of care to the patients that you are responsible for.  Gee, have I said that before?  

(oh, is tha 500 hours the whole length of the academy, because I do believe that that issue has allready been addressed.)


----------



## firecoins

Arkymedic said:


> 27+ is much more than I clear as a medic.



you would be making 54 as a medic in NYC. Medics make more than EMTs. Just to keep the facts straight.


----------



## firecoins

triemal04 said:


> Touchy touchy.  It's not that they do nothing, it's that they do so little (as evidenced by your inability to give a good medical reason why they deserve a pay hike).



A good medical reason?  There aren't enough ambulances.  Decreased response time could kill people. Thats seems like good medical reason to me to increase the pay.   Hey if you get movers beaticians and garbage men to come work for FDNY, as long as they can pass the physical, they are hired.


----------



## CFRBryan347768

triemal04 said:


> Touchy touchy.  It's not that they do nothing, it's that they do so little (as evidenced by your inability to give a good medical reason why they deserve a pay hike).  If you want to make higher wage, then you need to provide a higher level of care to the patients that you are responsible for.  Gee, have I said that before?
> 
> (oh, is tha 500 hours the whole length of the academy, because I do believe that that issue has allready been addressed.)



It is touchy touch, when you live so close to FDNY and you see what CRAP pay they make, and how FDNY EMS is suffering and they are burning out more and more EMT's due to mandatory OT, and still not being able to cover certain places it's quite annoying to put it nicely.


----------



## triemal04

firecoins said:


> A good medical reason?  There aren't enough ambulances.  Decreased response time could kill people. Thats seems like good medical reason to me to increase the pay.   Hey if you get movers beaticians and garbage men to come work for FDNY, as long as they can pass the physical, they are hired.


I'm still waiting for a reason, a good medical reason, that EMT-B's that provide little to no care for people should be paid more.  After all:  





> If you want to make higher wage, then you need to provide a higher level of care to the patients that you are responsible for.


  (I'm also waiting to hear what you think they should make...your refusal to answer so many of these questions is making me think all kind's of things that reflect rather poorly on you...not that it matters...this is the internet)

It's nice to know that you think that an EMT-B should be paid more, but why only in NYC?  After all the job is the job is the job, so why not in bumbledump, Iowa too?  (asked this before without a responce)  EMT-B's are given minimal training, very much like McDonalds workers...should Mickey Dee's employees get a pay raise?  (asked this too)  If an EMT-B in NYC is expected to NOT treat their patients, then why pay them more?  (asked this many times)

Seriously, why is it that the lowest level providers in EMS think they are so special?  Look at almost every other medical profession out there that made lousy wages at one point.  Instead of whining that they needed money for doing the same lousy job, they increased their education levels, increased what they could do, increased their standard of care, and surprise surprise, they got more money.  Really easy if you think about it.

Something else to keep in mind, simple increasing pay won't neccasarily mean that more people will be willing to work in the field.  Whole 'nother issue, but, keep it in mind.


CFRBryan347768 said:


> It is touchy touch, when you live so close to FDNY and you see what CRAP pay they make, and how FDNY EMS is suffering and they are burning out more and more EMT's due to mandatory OT, and still not being able to cover certain places it's quite annoying to put it nicely.


What's your point?  That because they work in NYC they should make more?  What makes them so special?  (allready covered this, and the answer was nothing)  I'll say it again:  it sucks that the system there is broken, it is and that's not good, but why should someone get a pay raise for doing nothing for their patients?  Nobody has answered this question yet.  Firecoins can't, do you want to give it a shot?


----------



## CFRBryan347768

triemal04 said:


> What's your point?  That because they work in NYC they should make more?  What makes them so special?  (allready covered this, and the answer was nothing)  I'll say it again:  it sucks that the system there is broken, it is and that's not good, but why should someone get a pay raise for doing nothing for their patients?  Nobody has answered this question yet.  Firecoins can't, do you want to give it a shot?




The pay raise would bring in more employees, which would put more ambulances in service. And im only talking about NYC because thats how this thread did start off with NYC EMT's did it not? If your so worried about equalized pay globaly, then why not start another thread? As a matter of fact ill do it for you http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?p=82509#post82509


----------



## triemal04

CFRBryan347768 said:


> The pay raise would bring in more employees, which would put more ambulances in service. And im only talking about NYC because thats how this thread did start off with NYC EMT's did it not? If your so worried about equalized pay globaly, then why not start another thread? As a matter of fact ill do it for you http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?p=82509#post82509


To be honest, I really doubt it would.  Unless you are talking about a huge pay hike...since firecoins won't answer it, what do you think they should be making?  And lest you forget, an EMT-B in NYC allready makes more than most others elsewhere.  Like I said, the system is broken.  A pay raise won't fix it.  And like I also said, take a hint from other medical professions this has happened too...how did they resolve it?  And take another hint from CNA's...if you work the bottom rung job, expect to make bottom rung pay until you move to a higher level.  I'll ask it again:  why do lower level providers in EMS think they are so special?

I could give a rat's *** about equalized pay...far as I'm concerned the pay for EMT-B's is appropriate.  You work in an entry-level, minimally trained position with minimal responsibilities, you get pay that's appropriate for that type of work.  Which they do.


----------



## CFRBryan347768

triemal04 said:


> To be honest, I really doubt it would.  Unless you are talking about a huge pay hike...since firecoins won't answer it, what do you think they should be making?  And lest you forget, an EMT-B in NYC allready makes more than most others elsewhere.  Like I said, the system is broken.  A pay raise won't fix it.  And like I also said, take a hint from other medical professions this has happened too...how did they resolve it?  And take another hint from CNA's...if you work the bottom rung job, expect to make bottom rung pay until you move to a higher level.  I'll ask it again:  why do lower level providers in EMS think they are so special?
> 
> I could give a rat's *** about equalized pay...far as I'm concerned the pay for EMT-B's is appropriate.  You work in an entry-level, minimally trained position with minimal responsibilities, you get pay that's appropriate for that type of work.  Which they do.



Factor in,tolls,parking,housing,and car payments. Id say they should easily start at 32,000 a yr. I can agree with you that most EMS providers think they are special, but since they think the are give them somethign to feel special about(seeing as I am moving all the way up the ladder eventually I have no problem with more specialized intense training), increase the EMT-B training so they can feel all high and mighty and then their would be a legit reason for you.


----------



## triemal04

CFRBryan347768 said:


> Factor in,tolls,parking,housing,and car payments. Id say they should easily start at 32,000 a yr. I can agree with you that most EMS providers think they are special, but since they think the are give them somethign to feel special about(seeing as I am moving all the way up the ladder eventually I have no problem with more specialized intense training), increase the EMT-B training so they can feel all high and mighty and then their would be a legit reason for you.


Excellent!  You're starting to get it.  Yes, many (and this is based off my own experience) lower level providers feel that they are entitled to more than they are and allready feel "all high and mighty," and do feel that they are "special" because they "work in the field."  Honestly though...tough.  That mean's squat.  And increasing somebodies pay because they are a whiner is just so, so wrong.  But...increasing someone's pay because they actually know more and are able to perform their job better and go beyond what their job currently is...those are reasons to get more pay.

You say that you are moving "all the way up the ladder."  Then why is it only "eventually" that you'll not have a problem with more education?  Why not lobby for it now?  If this is to be your career, and you really want EMS to last in the US, increasing the education requirements NOW is the way to ensure that, not in 5, 10 or 20 years.

(32K...that's less than the top step for an EMT-B in NYC, and more than many across the country make.  So you could argue that the cost of living has been factored in.  As I've said before, it's normally impossible to make a living as an EMT-B, so why should NYC be any different?)


----------



## firecoins

triemal04 said:


> To be honest, I really doubt it would.  Unless you are talking about a huge pay hike...since firecoins won't answer it, what do you think they should be making?


They should be making enough so there isn't a shortage. The number will be negotiated between the union and NYC. I have no idea what the exact number will be.  

This is very easy.  I don't why its so difficult to understand that there is a shortage of emts AND paramedics in NYC because pay the sucks.  Raise the pay and you solve the problem.  It really isn't difficult to understand.  

You don't care for care provided by emt-b. That means nothing.


----------



## firecoins

triemal04 said:


> Excellent!  (and this is based off my own experience)
> so why should NYC be any different?)



You have no experience in NYC. I would have never guessed!

I have never been to the Pacific Northwest.  I have no opinion on how it should be done there.  There are too many problems specific to NY that I can simply not address in this thread.

We rely on a combined BLS/ALS system and there are in no way enough ALS units to provide care for all 911 calls. FDNY EMS has a tight budget. Raising the number of ALS units is not going to happen any time soon. BLS units are critical to the NYC system. There is a shortage of both EMTs and Paramedics.  Both need a raise because the pay sucks for NYC. One day maybe they will riase the # of ALS units.  It won't be soon.   A pay raise is the easiest to achieve and that is difficult at best. 

If you have a general problem with EMT-B care, your free to lobby for higher educational standards. Yes I agree educational standards should be raised.  But that is a different issue from NYC EMT-B pay.


----------



## ffemt8978

Play nice, people...


----------



## BossyCow

Please do not assume that triemal's experience is indicative of the entire region. I also live in the Pacific NW and do not share his perceptions or his conclusions. I believe his perceptions are based on conclusions drawn based entirely on a limited experience. 

There are many systems in this area who pay their EMTs a decent wage. It is fiscally responsible for an agency to pay for an EMT-P on an ALS unit and accompany that EMT-P with an EMT-B or as it is called in my husband's agency a PMA or Paramedic Assistant. In many cases the PMA is a well trained, experienced assistant in pt care (unlike garbage men). They can set up an IV or even start one. They can take vitals, attach a 12 lead, start the O2, Get an O2 sat, Glucose, Yes a medic can too, but at a higher cost to the company and the patient. Having an EMT perform these tasks can leave the EMT-P free to perform the ALS skills. A well trained, professional team of Paramedic and EMT working together on a patient can provide an efficient assessment and treatment plan for the patient at a lower cost than two paramedics. 

Its unfortunate that Triemal has not had a positive experience with EMT-Bs. But if every EMT-B he has ever worked with has been as he described, I can only assume that there is something in his behavior or demeanor that brings this about.

Personally I tend to avoid his posts as they are usually venom filled diatribes laced with snide comments and inaccurate conclusions. But, I felt that since the entire Pacific NW was being labeled as he described it that there needed to be another perspective aired.


----------



## Ridryder911

Seriously Bossy how hard is it to spike a bag of IV fluids or even prepare for a 12 lead. My basics are  required to know this as they are tested over IV calculations as well, even though they cannot establish them. We have ER techs (non-trained) that can spike a bag after the first time after being demonstrated.. Are we sure we are not placing too much emphasis on some real, real basic things that even non EMT's can perform? 

PMA.. never heard of such, I have to admit a good propaganda tool. Kinda like Graduate Paramedic..a cheap administration tool. Titles are free..Especially, when it does not cost much more for two Paramedics. Seriously, the revenue made from ALS to ALS II charges in multiple patients, or even allowing that Paramedic a break from caring for each critical patient they have to treat.. Surely two heads thinking on critical patient is better than one? 

I teach & work with basics all the time. My opinion is not from not from bad experience, rather it is just the fact they are NOT properly educated and trained. This again is not one specific persons fault; but rather the systems fault. Again, Basic EMT's can attempt to justify, whine, and cry all they want.. they cannot change the facts. One hundred fifty hours is just enough to get one confused enough that they actually start believing they understand EMS and medical care. 

Instead of justifying Basic Levels for EMS, would it not be more productive to shift their primary role where they are better suited such as a MFR? Placing in rescue and first response units (non-transport) area? Since the curriculum has very little to no anatomy & physiology, cardiology is just little more than CPR and pysch emergencies is briefly a few paragraphs to a few pages, what can we expect? Then we want to endorse such an individual for salaries competitive to what ? .. 

Again, Triemal  has pointed out.. in the real world in comparrison the Basic Level does not have as much training as some CNA's, definitely not phlebomotist, and even my sanitation tech goes through at least 500 hours of technical training. So back to the point.. what can we expect the pay to be? 

We make it so easy to be an EMT, we have watered down the curriculum, and the cause & effect of this has produced low paying jobs.. everywhere. 

Solution.. Make Basic EMT one year in length, requiring all the prerequsittes for Paramedic, then allowing one to be a Basic for only four years (unless verified one is going to be a MFR) then one must proceed to the Paramedic level. The market will be more open, the pay & salaries will increase, the EMT will gain experience and have much more knowledge, and we will have truly interested individuals entering EMS as a profession. 

R/r 911


----------



## CFRBryan347768

triemal04 said:


> You say that you are moving "all the way up the ladder."  Then why is it only "eventually" that you'll not have a problem with more education?  Why not lobby for it now?  If this is to be your career, and you really want EMS to last in the US, increasing the education requirements NOW is the way to ensure that, not in 5, 10 or 20 years.



Not quite sure I understand what you are saying/asking. Im only 17 I can't take my EMT until Fall. In the Fall I start my pre req. for a Nursing Degree. And then after that going to get my paramedic(Yes, in that order its the way the class landed, and the requirements to get in) Then work as a paramedic and get all my time to bea able to work as a flight nurse. So thats my plan, what didnt I answer that you asked becasue i was unsure about what you said?


----------



## triemal04

Sorry, firecoins, but you've lost all credibility at this point wiht your refusal (or inability) to answer even the most basic questions about this subject, your refusal to advocate for increased pay for ALL EMT-B's (instead focusing on one small group for personal reasons), your insistence that pay be increased but not patient care, your insistence in only looking at the short-term solution, and your blatant attempt at misquoting and misrepresenting what I said.  (that's actually kind of cool...honestly)

Educational standards and pay are not 2 seperate issues, but one and the same.  Raise the education=raise the pay=raise the quality of care.  Sounds good to me.  Raise the pay without increasing the quality of care sounds like letting a broken system continue to break.

It still comes back to the same issue:  If you want to make more money in this profession, then you have to have something to offer to the people you treat.  A "shortage" doesn't matter; in no other area do you see people in entry-level jobs coming out and expecting to be paid great wages.  It just doesn't happen that way.


----------



## triemal04

Bossycow-

Oh please.  Does you husband still work for a fire department?  If so, then your arguement for "PMA's" just got shot down, as well, if you were referencing EMT-B's that work as FF/EMT's...nope, not applicable here.  If he doesn't, it still doesn't change my point:  the vast majority of EMT-B's make very lousy wages; while some don't, many do, and for the simple reason that they don't do a whole lot, as evidenced by your list of things they can do.  (if an EMT-B is working on an ALS ambulance and can't do those things, then they are unqualified to be there)  As with Rid, when I work with Basic's, I expect them to do all of that, and more.  If they can't, then the problem get's fixed.  Rapidly.  

The issue is that there isn't a reason for an EMT-B, a person with minimal training in an entry-level job to get paid more than entry-level pay; what do they do to deserve it?  Why is it that EMS is the only field where people in that position can feel justified in asking for more money?  Why, seriously?

This also has nothing to do with an EMT-B working with a medic; just what they should be paid.  Stay on topic.  Please.  As well, this has nothing to do with my own experiences with EMT-B's, just the simple fact that, as far as patient care goes, they can't do jack.  So why should they be paid more?  Care to weigh in on that issue?


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## CFRBryan347768

triemal04 said:


> in no other area do you see people in entry-level jobs coming out and expecting to be paid great wages.  It just doesn't happen that way.



Not to throw gas on the fire but the carpenters union here is pretty good, as an entry level position.


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## triemal04

CFRBryan347768 said:


> Not quite sure I understand what you are saying/asking. Im only 17 I can't take my EMT until Fall. In the Fall I start my pre req. for a Nursing Degree. And then after that going to get my paramedic(Yes, in that order its the way the class landed, and the requirements to get in) Then work as a paramedic and get all my time to bea able to work as a flight nurse. So thats my plan, what didnt I answer that you asked becasue i was unsure about what you said?


Misread what you said, nevermind.  Keep going with that plan.

Edit:  What's the starting pay for a carpenter in New York State?  If it's like here it's good, but a lot better as you move up, and, (taking the differences in what the job require) I'd be willing to make the arguement that an apprentice carpenter has more responsibility that an EMT-B.


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## Ridryder911

CFRBryan347768 said:


> ..." Then work as a paramedic and get all my time to bea able to work as a flight nurse. So thats my plan....



So you are looking at 10-15 years? Why not just aim to flight medic? Again, nothing wrong with flight nurse (obviously, I am both) but most flight agencies require the minimum of five years ICU/CCU experience after you have become an RN. Suggestion.. most flight services do NOT allow EMS experience for flight nursing. 

R/r 911


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## CFRBryan347768

triemal04 said:


> Misread what you said, nevermind.  Keep going with that plan.
> 
> Edit:  What's the starting pay for a carpenter in New York State?  If it's like here it's good, but a lot better as you move up, and, (taking the differences in what the job require) I'd be willing to make the arguement that an apprentice carpenter has more responsibility that an EMT-B.



I visited, a couple months ago but can't seem to remember any of the figures, just knew it was better then EMT because I said that in my head=D I'm still looking for the pay scale online ill post here when I find it. But the thing to also remember is its mroe class room time, and more work.


----------



## BossyCow

Triemal:

For your information, I was not responding to you but to those commenting that your experience is indicative of the area in which we both live. 

But since you brought it up.. here goes.... 

Yes my husband works for a fire department, but that is not the only agency with which I have experience. I also refer to hospital based systems which use EMTs as PMAs. A local private ambulance service has difficulty filling all its EMT positions and has since upped the base starting wage, unionized and increased the benefit package. There are multiple systems in Washington state that are not fire department based but do use EMT-Bs as part of their care.

I was staying on topic, because you were stating that EMTs were 'useless' and they are not. They can be an integral part of a healthcare team. An entry level EMT fresh out of school is not going to have the familiarity with the equipment, system or paperwork associated with a call that an experienced EMT will have. As they work and increase their skills, they should be paid commeasurate with their abilities and responsibilities and in respect to the amount of money they help to generate for the agency. 

If an agency is making money for a call and has the choice between two medics and their salaries, or a medic and an EMT and their salaries, which is going to make more money for that agency? Obviously the money saved by paying one of each is going to be less and increase agency profit margins. From strictly a management point of view, it's a workable system. An EMT who has been on those thousands of calls that Rid refers to is going to know what the medic wants, almost before they even ask for it. That experience has value. 

As far as the pay, the EMT is also assuming liability not always covered by the agency for which they work. This liability also should be compensated for. If a burger flipper at McDs drops a burger on the floor, chances are the burger is not going to sue, nor is the mother of the cow from which it came. Also, the burger retails for considerably less than an ambulance ride. Add to that the risk of exposure to pathogens, and the number of back injuries or assaults on EMS personnel in the line of duty and we have a hazardous workplace. 

To say that EMS is the only field where entry level personnel feel justified in asking for more money is also inaccurate. I worked in a hospital where an entry level laundry technician made $15 p/h. Housekeepers started at $10.50 with full benefits. And those statistics are 10 years old so I can only imagine what they are paying currently. These were untrained labor positions and required not even the minimal training of the average EMT.

The justification for EMTs making more than minimum is that agencies are making big money off their labor. Using an EMT with a medic instead of 2 medics can increase profit margin for the agency and most companies, interested in keeping employees rather than burning them out and using them up will pay to keep them.


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## CFRBryan347768

Ridryder911 said:


> So you are looking at 10-15 years? Why not just aim to flight medic? Again, nothing wrong with flight nurse (obviously, I am both) but most flight agencies require the minimum of five years ICU/CCU experience after you have become an RN. Suggestion.. most flight services do NOT allow EMS experience for flight nursing.
> 
> R/r 911



Im planning on centering my work sched, ICU work, and Paramedic time when im not in ICU. Paramedics here dont have a large enough salary for me to make car payments, car insurance, and 12-1400 a month in rent not including utilities. But, im not really complaning, its what I like and what I enjoy so showing up will be the easy part.


----------



## triemal04

So sorry bossy, but you don't get to reference someone by name with specific comments and then try and backpedal from that.  You said what you said...at least stand by it.

And you are still off topic...this isn't about who uses EMT-B's, or how many, or how they are used or where, but what the pay for them should be, and specifically (though I'm flexible on this) what it should be in NYC.  And, it's not that EMt-B's are useless, just that they can do very, very little for their patients.

Now, I asked some specific questions, usually the same ones, and so far the only one who has really tried to answer them is the youngest, most inexperienced person here.  Would you like to give it a shot?

1.  What is it that an EMT-B does MEDICALLY for their patients, (since this is the MEDICAL field) that makes it appropriate to pay them high wages?
2.  What should an EMT-B be making?  Really, I don't care if it's hourly, monthly, yearly, but let's see a number.
3.  Why is it that lower level providers in EMS feel they are entitled to so much when they do so little for their patients?

(for the record, when I've said minimum pay or things like that, I don't mean state/federal minimum wage at all; that's completely ridiculous.  I just mean a wage that is commenserate with the care given and responsibilities, which is nil in the case of an EMT-B; doesn't matter if you've been there 10 years, what are you doing for your patient?  Next to nothing.)

Just because a service saves some money by hiring an EMT-B is not a reason to pay them more; if that was the case, then see my McDonald's analogy; those guys would be making the big bucks.  Pay increases come from doing your job better, which in this case means providing more and better patient care.  Something that is essentially impossible at the EMT-B level; there is next to nothing that you can do for a patient.

Your exposure scenario isn't applicable either...on the job injuries and exposures are covered.  Doesn't matter where you are, you are covered.


----------



## triemal04

CFRBryan347768 said:


> Im planning on centering my work sched, ICU work, and Paramedic time when im not in ICU. Paramedics here dont have a large enough salary for me to make car payments, car insurance, and 12-1400 a month in rent not including utilities. But, im not really complaning, its what I like and what I enjoy so showing up will be the easy part.


Just be aware that you are biting off a huge amount of education and time there.  And be aware that it will eat up an enormous amount of your personal life...especially if you are planning on working full-time in an ICU (which I believe is what rid meant) AND as a paramedic.  Not that it can't be done...but it won't be easy and your personal life probably will suffer.

Honestly, which do you really prefer?  Do you want to work as a paramedic and then flight medic?  If that's the case, then don't forget that a national registry cert will allow you to move to most states in the country, and many, many places pay well enough to support a family.  Don't be afraid to pack up and move cross country if needed.  If you want to work as a flight nurse, maybe just become an RN and work that route.

You are plenty young enough that you still have almost all options available to you, so really think about what it is that you want, and what it will really take to get there.


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## Ridryder911

Not to burst any bubbles.. I wished I had a penny for every.. "I wanna be". Realistically, less that 3% make it into a flight program. There is so many reasons. First, they find out the pay is not usually anymore than a regular nurse, as well as getting onto a flight service is very, very difficult. Ironically, I personally believe it is much harder to become a Flight Paramedic than a Flight Nurse. Actually most nurses feel flight nurses are "lower nurses" that could not cut it in nursing. Similar to the same opinion some have about nursing home nurses... it is not a real glorious profession to all. 

The other is many do not realize how cramped, and physical restrictions is usually placed. Too tall, too large, clausterphobic etc.. (Yes, there is physical restrictions & yes it is legal).. 

Then there is the money issue.. many work 12 some work 24 hour shifts. Some get paid for a full 24, some do not get paid if they are "weathered in".. meaning, no fly, no pay. Yup, it happens.. most nurses depend upon that money. 

Now most services are cross training adult to neonate as well. That is a big liability! You are discussing gram weight babies, and those that have the heart cross wired, etc.. Bad stuff.. One has to consider, is it worth the risk for 18 years? (parents can sue up to until the child becomes an adult)..

Again, I love flying but one has to consider a lot of things.. it is a job. 

R/r 911


----------



## Zephyr

*New York City - Critical Shortage Of EMS Workers*

It's just as I feared...






> New York City - Critical Shortage Of EMS Workers
> 
> 06-15-2008 - 2:17 PM
> 
> New York City - A shortage of medics and a surge in heat-related 911 calls left the city struggling to respond to medical emergencies last week - and the dangerous situation could worsen as summer intensifies and more FDNY EMS workers jump ship to become firefighters, sources told The Post.



URL to article: http://www.vosizneias.com/17032/2008/06/15/new-york-city-critical-shortage-of-ems-workers/


----------



## CFRBryan347768

Zephyr said:


> It's just as I feared...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New York City - Critical Shortage Of EMS Workers
> 
> 06-15-2008 - 2:17 PM
> 
> New York City - A shortage of medics and a surge in heat-related 911 calls left the city struggling to respond to medical emergencies last week - and the dangerous situation could worsen as summer intensifies and more FDNY EMS workers jump ship to become firefighters, sources told The Post.
> 
> URL to article: http://www.vosizneias.com/17032/2008/06/15/new-york-city-critical-shortage-of-ems-workers/



We all knew this was coming, it's no big surprise...so now what you can't just increase the EMT-B hours in a matter of a couple phone calls. This is going to keep continuing until some one get a boot in the rear and revises the EMT-B course, so the pay can get upped(and have a good reason to be raised) and more employees hired.


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## Ridryder911

It would had matter if they hired 500 EMT's and 500 Paramedics. NYC is known for their EMS abuse. Nausea & abdominal pains that waited for over two hours, probably could have went in by a cab. Everyone knows she would had probably been triaged to the lobby. 

It appears that FDNY has finally competed against its own self.. oh, the irony! So shameful, that they place emphasis on brute instead of brains.. but, I can understand the EMS personnel for leaving. Why be abused, and get low pay for it as well? 

Maybe when some of the commissioners or mayor's family die,, they may pay attention. Chances are they will not change anything until it hits home or a few million dollar lawsuits...

R/r 911


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## mikeylikesit

Did you guys read the comments posted by the general public at the bottom of the article? shows you what the people think of all this.


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## CFRBryan347768

mikeylikesit said:


> Did you guys read the comments posted by the general public at the bottom of the article? shows you what the people think of all this.



Yeap, seems some of them sahre some of our opinions. Some say up the pay to bring in more employees, and some say(pretty sure some one mentioned this) up the standards and then they have a legit right to up the pay.


----------



## daedalus

firecoins said:


> Education should not be the sole factor consiudering how much work NYC EMT-Bs actually do. But NYC EMTs go through much more than 150 hours of education. Its not just an EMT-B class. One must be an EMT-B to apply. Than it takes 2.5 to 3 months in the academy once hired. The academy repreats the EMT-B class applicants already took plus EVOC and physical fitness training.  Than you must ride for a month with an FTO to make sure you doing things correctly.  Tahn they work in the busiest systems in the country. They do deserve more pay.
> 
> But yes EMT-Bs need more education
> 
> Actually its not that ironic. NYC has a much higher cost of living than most places in the country sometime more than double what it costs elsewhere. NYC EMT-Bs don't make enough to live in NYC and medics don't make off much better.


I agree. 
The EMTs are more than a mere 150 hour course. Hell it took me a month of  inservices/tests/classes before I could even start my FTO training. These guys got a whole academy. And NYC EMS is a crazy system.

They deserve more, much more.


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## Ridryder911

daedalus said:


> I agree.
> The EMTs are more than a mere 150 hour course. Hell it took me a month of  inservices/tests/classes before I could even start my FTO training. These guys got a whole academy. And NYC EMS is a crazy system.
> 
> They deserve more, much more.



So you went four months instead of the three? Still nothing in comparrision to many other professions that spends years of education and  testings.. 

R/r 911


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## daedalus

Im talking about compensation. I do not think these EMTs expect the wages of a doctor or nurse, or even a firefighter. Rid I think they expect enough to make ends meet and have a little bit of a life. Why make the salary of a McDonalds worker when one has to maintain a few certs at his/her own expense, keep up on knowledge and their skill set, take CE classes, and assume the liabilities of patent care? Its more than a mere hope skip and jump from a fast food worker, and therefor the concept of a free market should say an EMT should be compensated more than unskilled labor. And with demand so high, you can expect that wages need to go up. Again it has nothing to do with level of training, but economics.


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## Ridryder911

Unfortunately, EMT is considered "blue collar" or technical work. I agree it their pay sucks, but again it will not change until the public perception changes. Read the comments left by the public.. not to overwhelming for EMS, but if was for the fire heroes this would never be debated. 

R/r 911


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## daedalus

Which again brings us to the issue of advancing our field! There will be no excuse not to pay us well when we all have atleast AA or AS.


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## firecoins

The pay for NYC EMTs has little to do with level of training or how EMS is perceived by the public.  NYC paramedics have the same problems.  NYPD cops have the same problem.  

There is a shortage for 2 reasons 1 of which is the use of FDNY EMS as a pathway into the FDNY firefighting side. The other is a low starting salary.  EMT-Bs can get paid more working for hospitals that have an agreement with FDNY to man their own 911 BLS and ALS crews.  I do my rotations for St. Vincent's in Manhattan. EMTs and Medics make more money doing the same job as FDNY EMTs and Medics in the same exact system.    

NYPD rookies make $28,000. There is a shortage of rookie cops.  This is compouned by suburban depts starting off at $40,000 and with raises that amount to much more than NYPD's top level of pay. Even Seattle PD has a large billboard on the Westside of Manhattan recruiting low paid cops into Seattle's PD.  

This isn't an EMS problem as much as this is a City of NY problem.


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## VentMedic

firecoins said:


> NYPD rookies make $28,000.



You are a couple of years behind on your salary facts.

http://www.nypd2.org/html/recruit/policeofficer.html


But, there's this little thing about education or military experience as the requirements for hire.



> On or before the day of hire, candidates must have successfully completed either:
> Sixty (60) college credits with a 2.0 G.P.A. from an accredited college or university, or
> Two (2) years of full-time, active military service in the United States Armed Forces with an honorable discharge and have a high school's diploma or its equivalent.


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## firecoins

VentMedic said:


> You are a couple of years behind on your salary facts.
> 
> http://www.nypd2.org/html/recruit/policeofficer.html
> 
> 
> But, there's this little thing about education or military experience as the requirements for hire.



iHere is the PBA version.
http://www.nycpba.org/archive/ch/07/ch-070105-contract.html


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## VentMedic

The date is January 5, 2007 on your article.   They got their increase.

For the amount of education they are required, that increase is a good start and they probably deserve more.   At least their recruitment requirements are looking more for quality and not just warm bodies.  It does make a difference when higher education is factored in for professionalism.

Their promotion of education is also rather impressive.
http://www.nypd2.org/html/recruit/educational.html


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## firecoins

VentMedic said:


> They got their increase.


They did.  



> For the amount of education they are required, that increase is a good start and they probably deserve more.


 They deserve as much as the surrounding communities. 



> At least their recruitment requirements are looking more for quality and not just warm bodies.  It does make a difference when higher education is factored in for professionalism.


at $25,000 , they just got warm bodies.


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## VentMedic

firecoins said:


> at $25,000 , they just got warm bodies.



No, their education requirements were still the same.  They get applicants who have 60 credit hours of college and not people with a 3 month "hours based" training course.  That's a better foundation to build from. 

Oakland, CA's FD dropped their EMT requirement for FF and got 10,000 warm bodies for 20 positions.   Out of those 10,000 applicants, 9,900  probably could not pass basic physical tests or background checks.  Since this was such a huge mess, the news stations have been following the progress of weeding out the candidates.  The physical fitness course was just too embarrassing to watch. 

The same with their police department.  At $72,000/yr with minimal entry requirements, it will be long process to weed through all the applicants.  

Higher wages do not mean you are always going to attract the right people especially for entry level jobs.  The screening just gets tougher and more expensive.


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## firecoins

VentMedic said:


> No, their education requirements were still the same.  They get applicants who have 60 credit hours of college and not people with a 3 month "hours based" training course.  That's a better foundation to build from.


Despite the higher educational standards, the $25,000 pay got them warm bodies.  The good applicants went to other departments.   




> Higher wages do not mean you are always going to attract the right people especially for entry level jobs.  The screening just gets tougher and more expensive.


No but the higher wages recently negotiated by the NYPD will attract better applicants applying to other better paying depts.  NYPD is competing for applicants with other better paying police depts. 

FDNY EMS has a shortage of EMTs and medics.  Need to solve this problem.  Its great that you want to raise the educational standards but this is not going to solve the immediate problems.  May be in the future, the educational requirements can be fixed.  Until than, a raise will fix the short term problems.


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## CFRBryan347768

firecoins said:


> FDNY EMS has a shortage of EMTs and medics.  Need to solve this problem.  Its great that you want to raise the educational standards but this is not going to solve the immediate problems.  May be in the future, the educational requirements can be fixed.  Until than, a raise will fix the short term problems.



I'd like to say I agree, but what happens when you start attracting the wrong people to the job who will _only take the job for the $$ and benefits_? If you raise the education you will just turn those idiots mentioned above in italics away. Everybody wants EMS respected, how can you respect it if its a bunch of uneducated people off the street who went through the EMS academy and now slack off after their ride outs just to pick up a nice pay check?? FDNY EMS is suffering, and it's going to keep suffering until some special person dies.


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## firecoins

CFRBryan347768 said:


> I'd like to say I agree, but what happens when you start attracting the wrong people to the job who will _only take the job for the $$ and benefits_? If you raise the education you will just turn those idiots mentioned above in italics away. Everybody wants EMS respected, how can you respect it if its a bunch of uneducated people off the street who went through the EMS academy and now slack off after their ride outs just to pick up a nice pay check?? FDNY EMS is suffering, and it's going to keep suffering until some special person dies.



How much respect does EMS get when response time is up to 1 hour long?  I ask because this is happaning right now for ALS units. 

If your relying on associates degree to keep the idiots out, you will be disappointed.  Anyone can get into a community college and and get an associate's degree.  No one is rejected from a CC.  I have no problem requiring it down the road.  But it isn't a viable option right now.


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## Ridryder911

firecoins said:


> How much respect does EMS get when response time is up to 1 hour long?  I ask because this is happaning right now for ALS units.
> 
> If your relying on associates degree to keep the idiots out, you will be disappointed.  Anyone can get into a community college and and get an associate's degree.  No one is rejected from a CC.  I have no problem requiring it down the road.  But it isn't a viable option right now.



Less than the idiots we have right now that cannot read or write or spell.. (hint read some of the posts). If your CC is not being discriminative then there is a problem. All have to take placement tests of some kind as well as have English, formal Science and at least read above the 10'th grade level, which is apparently not happening.. otherwise our textbooks would be written at that level. Just think how embarrassing it is that the Basic EMT is written at a grade school level... 

R/r 911


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## CFRBryan347768

Okay, lets say they do up the pay and they hire x amount of emt's, and in 7 years they decided to update the EMT curriculum and all current EMT's are required to take the new class and pass. FDNY just hired a bunch of illiterate people because the pay and benefits are good, then what they all lose their jobs and were back in the same situation...


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## Outbac1

Hire now, fire later? There is no time like now to change things. Hiring more quickie EMT's at higher pay,(not great pay just higher than current pay), is only a short term solution at best. Now is the time to train and hire the appropriate people to a higher standard and then pay them accordingly. 

   In the mean time its gonna suck to be a sick NewYorker. But its a better solution in the long term. 

 If those currently working don't want to upgrade their education to a new standard, show them the door and hire someone else. We did it here and got a better system from it. I'm sure there are a lot of reasonably educated, unemployed people there who would love to train for a good well paying career job.


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## Nycxice13

As an FDNY-EMS EMT-B...(whom btw HAS a college degree) They need to increase our salary...The training alone when compared to most 911 systems is far more involved, as is the hiring process. When you consider the fact that our civilian counterparts start off at $18 per hour...But then again, we have a more secure job...Take the good with the bad I guess..


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## firecoins

CFRBryan347768 said:


> I'd like to say I agree, but what happens when you start attracting the wrong people to the job who will _only take the job for the $$ and benefits_?



RIght now you had people who only want to be firefighters joining.


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## firecoins

Ridryder911 said:


> Less than the idiots we have right now that cannot read or write or spell.. (hint read some of the posts). If your CC is not being discriminative then there is a problem. All have to take placement tests of some kind as well as have English, formal Science and at least read above the 10'th grade level, which is apparently not happening.. otherwise our textbooks would be written at that level. Just think how embarrassing it is that the Basic EMT is written at a grade school level...
> 
> R/r 911



No community college is discriminative. In fact, they exist for the community as a whole. The purpose is to make education widely available to the public. Sure you are required to take tests and than you get put in classes in the "weak" areas.  You could get a GED at a community college if you need one.    NYS and NYC have made these school open to the public.  Of course paramedic programs are closed to those with an EMT-B which we all know is very hard to get.  

Spell check has made even very educated people weak spellers.


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## VentMedic

firecoins said:


> No community college is discriminative. In fact, they exist for the community as a whole. The purpose is to make education widely available to the public. Sure you are required to take tests and than you get put in classes in the "weak" areas.  You could get a GED at a community college if you need one.    NYS and NYC have made these school open to the public.  Of course paramedic programs are closed to those with an EMT-B which we all know is very hard to get.
> 
> Spell check has made even very educated people weak spellers.



A GED is part of the non-credit adult learning section for education.  It is not a college class. It is a requirement to take college classes if you did not graduate from high school. 

Colleges give preference to their residents but still require placement testing.  NYC is no exception. You may still gain entrance to the college but will have to take remedial classes until the college administrators believe you can handle college level classes.   If your GPA or abilities is not up to par, you can still be denied entrance into many degree programs.


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## firecoins

A friend who is a FDNY EMT-B informed that NYC EMTs and Medics got a raise.  Furthermore shifts might be changing from 8hrs to 12hrs. 

I have not seen this posted anywhere yet but if find a link ill post it.


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## Zephyr

firecoins said:


> A friend who is a FDNY EMT-B informed that NYC EMTs and Medics got a raise.  Furthermore shifts might be changing from 8hrs to 12hrs.
> 
> I have not seen this posted anywhere yet but if find a link ill post it.



Thanks for sharing.  If true, this is good news.  I wonder how much of a raise...  Good timing too-- I just called FDNY yesterday to give them my NY EMT number and other info.  The lady with whom I spoke said to expect a letter within 4-6 weeks.


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## firecoins

NYPD got a raise.  


> MAYOR BLOOMBERG ANNOUNCES TENTATIVE AGREEMENT WITH THE PATROLMEN'S BENEVOLENT ASSOCIATION
> 
> By End of 4-Year Deal, Top Pay Will Be $91,823 Before Overtime
> 
> Agreement for Police Officers Provides Over 20% Increases in Compensation, Including Almost 17% in Salary
> 
> Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg and Patrick J. Lynch, President of the Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association (PBA), announced that a tentative contract settlement has been reached with the PBA on a collective bargaining agreement covering the period from August 1, 2006 through July 31, 2010.  The agreement, which is subject to ratification, covers over 23,000 police officers. This settlement marks the first time an agreement has been reached across the bargaining table with the PBA since 1994.
> 
> “We have the 23,000 police officers of the NYPD, as much as anyone, to thank for the low crime and heightened quality of life we enjoy in this City,” said Mayor Bloomberg.  “The most important aspect of the contract is that it will raise the starting salary for rookie cops from $36,000, to over 40,000, and that will be retroactive to 2006. I have always believed that the best contract agreements are those that are reached at the bargaining table, and this is a good example of that.”
> 
> “Officers in the New York City Police Department shoulder responsibilities that exceed those of other officers across the country,” said Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly. “They have helped drive crime down to record lows. They more than deserve the increased compensation reflected in this new agreement.”
> 
> “This negotiated contract, the first for the PBA in almost 15 years, continues to move us toward a market rate of pay that our police officers have earned and so rightly deserve,” said PBA President Lynch said. “It brings a police officer’s top salary at contract’s end to $76,488 and our total monetary compensation package to over $94,000.  The agreement also includes, for the first time, an historic escalator clause that links longevity pay and health and welfare benefits contributions to the percentage change of wage increases, ensuring that those substantial benefits automatically rise in the same proportion as salary.   That link will serve to magnify each future increase in an officer’s earnings while insuring the long-term stability of our health and welfare funds for both active and retired officers.  Additionally, major changes to work rules, including ones that allow police officers to mutually exchange tours and to better utilize existing sick leave will vastly improve the quality of life for our members.  We are pleased that a dramatic change in the negotiating atmosphere has allowed for a real exchange of ideas and has resulted in a contract that deserves police officer’s support.”
> 
> The principal features of the settlement are:
> 
> • 4%, compounded, effective August 1, 2006
> • 4%, compounded, effective August 1, 2007
> • 4%, compounded, effective August 1, 2008
> • 4%, compounded, effective August 1, 2009
> 
> At the end of this contract, a police officer’s basic maximum salary will be $76,488, compared to the current amount of $65,382. With longevity pay, holiday pay, night shift differential and other additions, total compensation will be approximately $91,823, plus overtime. The total increase in compensation is 20.05 percent, including a compounded wage increase of 16.99 percent.
> 
> New Hires
> 
> The salary schedule for police officers hired on/after January 1, 2006, will be as follows:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Effective August 1, 2009
> 
> Appointment Rate
> 
> 
> $41,975
> 
> After 1.5 Years
> 
> 
> $43,644
> 
> After 2.5 Years
> 
> 
> $48,779
> 
> After 3.5 Years
> 
> 
> $53,270
> 
> After 4.5 Years
> 
> 
> $56,609
> 
> Basic Maximum after 5.5 years
> 
> 
> $76,488
> 
> Longevity Schedule
> 
> Effective July 31, 2008, the longevity schedule will be increased by $313 at each step. Also, effective July 31, 2008, these steps will be increased by any future general wage increases.  In addition, effective July 31, 2010, the longevity schedule will be increased by $1,230 at each step.
> 
> Welfare Funds
> 
> Effective July 31, 2008, the City will contribute a $400 one-time lump sum payment per retiree to the Retiree Health and Welfare Funds and effective July 31, 2010, an additional $100 one-time lump sum payment per retiree shall be paid to the Retiree Health and Welfare Funds.  In addition, effective July 31, 2008, the annual rate of contributions to the Active and Retiree Welfare Funds shall be increased by any future general wage increases.
> 
> Vacations
> 
> Effective July 31, 2010, employees hired on or after July 1, 2008, shall be entitled to thirteen (13) annual vacation days during their third, fourth and fifth years of service.  In the recent PERB award, the number of vacation days was reduced for new hires in the first five years of service from 20 days to 10 days.  The PBA has bought back three vacation days as part of this agreement.
> 
> Other Provisions
> 
> Effective July 1, 2008, the parties have agreed that the officers will qualify at the shooting range on a regular work day and will not surrender a vacation day or any other time or leave. Employees who have already utilized a vacation day shall have that day restored.  A pilot program shall be established that will provide that eligible employees, who request sick leave for an injury or illness, shall no longer be subject to home visitation and confinement, outside the hours of the employee’s regularly scheduled tour of duty, provided the sick leave utilization remains at acceptable levels as negotiated by the parties.
> 
> Effective February 20, 2010, police officers assigned to Detective track commands as so-called “White Shield Detectives” shall work the same length of tour and number of appearances as currently worked by Detectives in the respective units to which they are assigned.
> 
> The procedures for mutual exchange of tours currently found in the Administrative Guide shall be incorporated into the collective bargaining agreement and in the Patrol Guide.
> 
> The Mayor thanked Deputy Mayor for Operations Edward Skyler, Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly, PBA President Patrick J. Lynch and his committee, Labor Commissioner James F. Hanley and First Deputy Commissioner Margaret M. Connor and their team, and Budget Director Mark Page and his staff for their efforts in reaching this agreement.


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## fortsmithman

Zephyr said:


> If education is the directly proportionate gauge for setting salary, then why do NYC's garbage collectors make more than EMTs?  Which city employees complete more training and get paid less than $27K in New York City?  If I'm an ER physician making $54K, I'm going to seek employment elsewhere to pay back my student loads, or go back into the military, where I was making more money.
> 
> I agree with you on the OT.  I would want my EMTs to get enough rest so I know that they're not treating patients while exhausted.



The reason garbage collectors make more is maybe they have a better trade union. If on wants to make more is EMS get more education.  Because more education = more money.   I got in the EMS field late in life (I'm 41 and a rookie with my agency).  I do plan on taking the EMT course then taking the paramedic program.  I have todo that because The licensing body my agency uses (the Alberta College of Paramedics) requires before a person can be a EMT they have to be a EMR (equivalent to a US EMT Basic).  To be a Paramedic ACoP requires one be a EMT.


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## fortsmithman

accidental double post oops.


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