# Running lights vs running hot



## jpregulman (Nov 9, 2012)

Hi,

If you read my post I am in a college based EMS group. We respond to all campus emergencies (yes real emergencies). We just go at squad and are having discussion on when to go "hot" vs not.

I am of the opinion that we should run light but no sirens to emergencies and if transport is necessary run hot or lights only or "cold" to the hospital which is like 5 minutes away.

Our director (not medial) who is a campus cop wants us to never run use the lights or sirens no matter what.

PS: we drive on campus sidewalks to get right to the buildings.

What do you think?


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## mycrofft (Nov 9, 2012)

Agree with the director, and ditch the term "running hot". Best way to insure prompt response is teams by the vehicle, good communications, and know the lay of the land perfectly.
Oh, yeah, be good at climbing stairs if needed.


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## jpregulman (Nov 9, 2012)

We deff know the area well as we live in our response area. Im just worried that at 11pm when there are a few hundred students on campus that never yeild to cars. I think they might yeild if they see a ambulance with their lights on. I should also say i dont think we should drive any different with the lights on just have them on basically saying hey! were coming though. We used to use a van  to respond and I would have people walk in front of us for minutes at a time even though I was honking at them. I should also say we are a BLS sqad FYI


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## NYMedic828 (Nov 9, 2012)

Ditch the cheesy terms.

Either it's an emergent response of a non emergent response and in most areas emergent responses aren't worth the risk.


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## DesertMedic66 (Nov 9, 2012)

I agree with the campus PD. In a lot of areas lights and sirens only save seconds (if that) and that is big response areas 10+ miles. As a college your not going to be covering such a large area.

Also since its a college your not gonna be getting too many "grandma is in full arrest". Most of you'll respond to will be drunk guys/girls who did something stupid. You may get some better calls (ie allergic reactions, asthma, etc). 

The only part on using the lights I could agree on would be if you are on a sidewalk. It may help students realize that they should move out of the way.


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## jpregulman (Nov 9, 2012)

Thats why I dont want to use sirens. All they do is raise your pulse and give you a nice epi rush, it also makes some pt's freak. Becuase as you said most of our pts are drunk they think we are the cops coming to arrest them, lol.

I have responded to; respiratory distress, lots of sports injures, syncope, and chest pain (we respond to anyone on campus, including faculty and staff). I work monday nights so no drunk people for me


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## mycrofft (Nov 9, 2012)

You can have the horn off my Accord, it'll clear 'em fast enough.


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## jpregulman (Nov 9, 2012)

NYMedic828 said:


> Ditch the cheesy terms.
> 
> Either it's an emergent response of a non emergent response and in most areas emergent responses aren't worth the risk.



I mean i could use code 2/3 but not everyone uses those, including us. It was the simplest terms I could come up with. Dont hate!


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## jpregulman (Nov 9, 2012)

mycrofft said:


> You can have the horn off my Accord, it'll clear 'em fast enough.



Obviously you have not been on an urban college campus. I am supprised we do not get more ped vs car calls. I think someone has already been hit crossing against the light this year, ironically with in sight of the ED


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## ExpatMedic0 (Nov 9, 2012)

They see me rollin
They hatin
Patrolling they tryin to catch me ridin dirty

:rofl:


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## jpregulman (Nov 9, 2012)

I like! and Agree


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## NomadicMedic (Nov 9, 2012)

No lights.


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## mycrofft (Nov 9, 2012)

No hatin' Just commentatin', Mahn! h34r:


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## Achilles (Nov 9, 2012)

schulz said:


> They see me rollin
> They hatin
> Patrolling they tryin to catch me ridin dirty
> 
> :rofl:



let me respond to this as I walk through the valley where I harvest my Grain. Woa I just took a look at my wife and realized she's very plain
But that's just perfect for an Amish like me.

What are you responding in a golf cart? SUV? Aerial? Type ||?


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## Rialaigh (Nov 9, 2012)

schulz said:


> They see me rollin
> They hatin
> Patrolling they tryin to catch me ridin dirty
> 
> :rofl:



Oh gaw, I just peed myself...

:rofl:


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## Medic Tim (Nov 9, 2012)

We have priority dispatch where I work. At 3am when we go to the snf less than 2 miles away I drive cold )code 2) even if it is a hot (code 1) call.

We also have a policy that if we have to drive on sidewalks or walking trails or anywhere where there is ped traffic we are to have the lights on.


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## jpregulman (Nov 9, 2012)

Our ambulance is still getting painted. I believe it is a box type.

Let me be clear about this again. When I say responding with lights I mean responding at a normal speed, obeying all traffic signals and law.

I just think its a good idea to have them on so we are more visible and people don't think we are just a service van or something.


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## jpregulman (Nov 9, 2012)

Type 3 I think


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## ffemt8978 (Nov 9, 2012)

jpregulman said:


> I just think its a good idea to have them on so we are more visible and people don't think we are just a service van or something.



There is no valid reason for this concern, other than your self image.  What does it matter if somebody sees you and thinks you are a service van?


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## jpregulman (Nov 9, 2012)

ffemt8978 said:


> There is no valid reason for this concern, other than your self image.  What does it matter if somebody sees you and thinks you are a service van?



Because college students wont move out of the way. I think that was a bad example. I dont want people to not see us when it is 11pm dark and they are drunk.


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## ffemt8978 (Nov 9, 2012)

jpregulman said:


> Because college students wont move out of the way. I think that was a bad example. I dont want people to not see us when it is 11pm dark and they are drunk.



Again, not a valid concern.  If they are drunk, what makes you think they will yield to lights?


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## STXmedic (Nov 9, 2012)

jpregulman said:


> Because college students wont move out of the way. I think that was a bad example. I dont want people to not see us when it is 11pm dark and they are drunk.



Do you have a major MV-Pedestrian problem on campus? If not, just drive like the other drivers at night. Don't haul *** through campus, pay attention and you won't hit anybody. If you're driving on sidewalks (I'm assuming there is absolutely no other way), then you should be creeping along anyway.


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## jpregulman (Nov 9, 2012)

We do, the police drive on them as well. We do creep along currently just to navigate everywhere.

Yes we do have a big Ped problem. The students just arent used to getting out of the way of moving things even when it is going 5 mph. 

So the general conciseness im getting is No lights unless it is required in protocols.


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## STXmedic (Nov 9, 2012)

MV-Ped as in pedestrians getting hit by cars. Y'all do have a big problem with that?

So you sound like you're fairly level-headed. That's good. You would probably be okay responding however you ended up responding. However, a large portion of EMTs are not, especially younger ones (like you likely have on your college EMS service). People tend to get a sense of entitlement and power while running code. They haul *** without regard to the safety of themselves or others. If you really have that many people wandering around drunk and not watching for vehicles, you are begging to for one of your crew members to hit somebody. Driving emergent does not save that much time, especially for something as small as a college/university campus. Drive like a normal citizen would to get to where you need to go. It is much safer, and the  patient will get seen plenty soon enough.


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## CFal (Nov 9, 2012)

I think using at least lights is necessary, maybe not with sirens all the time but the lights should be on to signify that you are responding to an emergency IMHO, but don't drive recklessly, don't do anything stupid.


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## jpregulman (Nov 9, 2012)

Ha thanks, I would hope I am level headed, I am running for ast. Cheif.

First a few things about our drivers.

They all will go through a Ambulance training course (state approved of course)
They are all over 18 with clean or almost clean driving records
They go through a hour long drive over EVERY street and sidewalk on campus with a member of our exec board.

About our students:
Last week (or sometime around there) a student (not drunk, during the day) crossing a 2 lane road, next to the hospital was hit by a car. He/she was not looking. Most students don't pay attention to their surroundings. We as a company do not have a problem with hitting people!


About us responding to calls:
Again I only want us to turn on the flashing blue and reds while responding CODE 2! Most if not all calls that we get do not require code 3. 


Is there some kind of requirement saying that when we have lights we have to drive fast and disregard safety, no. I think that lights can help increase the visibility of us on campus. It does not do much to raise the Epi levels in the driver or responders  (as far as i know). 

I know that going code 3 (hot) only really increases accidents and only saves like a minute. If you got rid of 2 buildings we could see the hospital from our base of service.

We have no protocols that require us to run lights and sirens for any reason as we are BLS only, most of our patients can wait an extra minute or two.


What I am asking is what do yall think of having the lights on while driving. Similar to when you get our of your rig and leave the lights but not sirens on when on a traffic scene or at night (well the ambulance companies here do)


Also in response to all the people saying this is for looks. It could not hurt us to look more, pardon my terms, legit. Most students on campus think we are a bunch of students running around with a few band aids. While in reality we run at least 2 EMT-B's and have a medical director at the local hospital. 


Sorry about the long post....


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## bahnrokt (Nov 9, 2012)

a quick blip of the siren or air horn will clear up an confusion of Ambulance vs plumber.  They also tend to motivate unaware pedestrians.  Your school probably has a strong preference that you run quiet.


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## jpregulman (Nov 9, 2012)

Ha, I never thought about how the university feels.:rofl:. although it wont be different from the once a week fire truck for "dorm fires" aka easy mac in the microwave w/o water.


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## mycrofft (Nov 9, 2012)

Aim the window squirters forwards and put ice cubes in the reservoir.


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## ffemt8978 (Nov 9, 2012)

jpregulman said:


> Ha thanks, I would hope I am level headed, I am running for ast. Cheif.
> 
> First a few things about our drivers.
> 
> ...



My comments in red.


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## jpregulman (Nov 9, 2012)

I dont want to get in to an argument of BLS vs ALS. Yes ALS can do more, however i resent you saying that, that is all we are. Most college students only need BLS, and we provide this service for free. If you were talking about EMR's then i would agree. However we can do much more than just bandaids.

Yes i know most companies require at least 21 or 25 to drive. If we did that, no one would drive.

Here is a more concise thing I am looking at presenting;


Use of Lights and Siren


When responding to all calls, accept transport only, the flashing blue and red lights should be used. All traffic laws should be obeyed, including speed limit.

When transporting patients lights should be used while on the sidewalks/private roads of (Insert University Name). When transporting patients on private roads lights should not be used unless dictated by protocol. While driving on (Insert University Name) and public roads all traffic law, including speed limit should be obeyed.

At all times drivers will obey all traffic laws at all times.


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## ffemt8978 (Nov 9, 2012)

After you've been in EMS for any length of time, you will realize the truth of my comments about EMT-B's, especially when you start to deal with truly sick patients.

Think about it...there are only a few things that an EMT-B is allowed to do that a Boy Scout with a First Aid Merit Badge isn't.


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## jpregulman (Nov 9, 2012)

I still have to disagree. However that is not the point of this post.


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## ffemt8978 (Nov 9, 2012)

Disagree all you want, but it's still relevant to the discussion, and it's still the truth.


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## jpregulman (Nov 9, 2012)

Tell me a boy scout can do all of this;

http://www.publicsafety.ohio.gov/links/ems_scope_practice0312.pdf

We are able to provide treat and release on 40% of our calls, transport on 45%. 

Thanks for your advice.


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## ffemt8978 (Nov 9, 2012)

jpregulman said:


> Tell me a boy scout can do all of this;
> 
> http://www.publicsafety.ohio.gov/links/ems_scope_practice0312.pdf
> 
> ...



I said most of it, not all of it.  The Boy Scouts just don't feel the need to detail every little thing that can be done, but it is essentially the same.
http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/MeritBadges/mb-FIRS.aspx

More importantly, in the types of calls that you stated you primarily respond to, their treatment procedures are the same.


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## Epi-do (Nov 9, 2012)

ffemt8978 said:


> There is no valid reason for this concern, other than your self image.  What does it matter if somebody sees you and thinks you are a service van?



I don't know about everyone else, but I've had days where I could only hope we would be mistaken for a service van!

As for the OP, I have to agree with the no lights sentiment most everyone has already expressed.


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## AnthonyM83 (Nov 11, 2012)

How big is your campus? Student population and square mileage.

A potential compromise could be amber lights similar to what tow trucks and security units use to request the right of way if vehicles/pedestrians want.

The problem with responding with red/blue lights without actually running emergent is that it WILL eventually degrade to borderline code 3. Accidents will eventually happen.


Also, you said your campus has a problem with auto vs ped...yet you said there's been only one this year?


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## mycrofft (Nov 11, 2012)

Running lights:








Running hot:






  OR





We clear now?

haha


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## FDJohn (Nov 11, 2012)

Here, it's illegal to use lights without sirens. There's a lesson to be taken from that. It's either a critical patient or it's not. IF IT WERE ME however, I would not be on an event field, sidewalk, or crowded parking lot without lights on if I'm making my way to a patient or making my way out with a patient. If you hit someone you now have two patients.


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## DrParasite (Nov 11, 2012)

you should absolutely have lights and sirens on your ambulance.   what if you stop at an MVA?

do you have a chase car going with you for ALS?  will you ever provide mutual aid outside of the campus environment?  if you transport with the paramedic, and its a life threatening call, should you use L&S?

check your state laws, many will say if your lights are on, your sirens should be on.

College campuses do get ped struck calls, overdoses, and asthma calls. ever some legit unconscious patients.  If the call is of a life threatening nature, than you should be responding just like a city ambulance would, using your lights and sirens.

your an ambulance, an emergency vehicle.  If the city ambulance were to respond to your campus for an emergency call, would they use their Lights and sirens?  if they do, why wouldn't you?


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## rescue1 (Nov 12, 2012)

Have you checked your state laws regarding lights and sirens responses? If it requires you to have both activated (as most do) for you to be considered an emergency vehicle, then you should not have a policy instructing a "lights only" response. 

If you are running lights for non-emergent calls to clear crowds, remember the increased liability if you hit someone with your lights activated. Also remember that since you didn't have your sirens on, you will be then considered liable for the reason I mentioned above.

I say don't run lights unless it is for a call that would require a L/S response, like unconscious subjects, severe trauma or cardiac issues (less likely on college campuses, but still). If you're responding to a drunk or a MJ user with anxiety, there is no need to activate lights at all, even if it means 5 minutes more response time. 
Also, get an airhorn. People will move if you blow the airhorn, lights or no lights.

Also, what happens if there is an emergent call on campus? Say a professor goes into arrest. Do they send you plus city ALS?


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## Bullets (Nov 12, 2012)

When i went through EVOC at the police academy we were taught that any time we would operate a vehicle beyond the normal methods on roads we should be using our lights. Blocking a street, driving off road, or through crowds are all reasons to employ lights. However this is also based on the call as dispatched. Serious calls get a serious response. LOC, OD, Respiratory, Cardiac  are all warranted, everything else is  not


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## MMiz (Nov 12, 2012)

I think you'll find many here at EMTLife anti-lights/siren.  I like to think that a lot of members see themselves as progressive providers, even though I'm confident most use lights/sirens at work.

If I were in charge of EMS at a university I'd make sure the ambulance was equipped with lights/siren for traffic control on scene and for potentially maneuvering through heavy traffic while responding to emergent calls.

Having attended multiple universities and worked at one, it is my experience that lights and siren are rarely used on an actual campus, it's too distracting to the educational environment.  It is more common to see them used on surrounding roads and when blocking off roads for traffic control.

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but I think your director may be on to something.


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## Tigger (Nov 12, 2012)

Obviously you're ambulance should be equipped with lights and a siren, and they should be utilized like any other ambulance service would. If you have a call requiring an emergent response, then use them. Using them for a non emergent response to "look legit" is not a good way to gain professional credibility from other agencies and is flat dangerous.


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## Farmer2DO (Nov 13, 2012)

jpregulman said:


> Our ambulance is still getting painted. I believe it is a box type.
> 
> Let me be clear about this again. When I say responding with lights I mean responding at a normal speed, obeying all traffic signals and law.
> 
> I just think its a good idea to have them on so we are more visible and people don't think we are just a service van or something.



I'm going to go against the grain here and say your thoughts are reasonable.  Driving on the sidewalks with your emergency lights on, with the occasional tap of the air horn is, IMHO, appropriate.



ffemt8978 said:


> There is no valid reason for this concern, other than your self image.  What does it matter if somebody sees you and thinks you are a service van?



Because they don't give a damn where you're going or why, or how long you take, if they think you're a service van.  I've worked on and dealt with several college campuses, and you could easily have hundreds of students, even over a thousand, mobbing in front of you, intent on getting to their next lecture.  I think with use of the lights, and a few air horn taps, they will become like Pavlov's dogs, and get out of their way.



jpregulman said:


> Because college students wont move out of the way. I think that was a bad example. I dont want people to not see us when it is 11pm dark and they are drunk.



Being visible, and being recognized that you're going to provide patient care, are valid concerns.



ffemt8978 said:


> Disagree all you want, but it's still relevant to the discussion, and it's still the truth.



Geez, would you lay off the kid?  Much of what you're disagreeing with him about is opinion.  He's entitled to it, and doesn't need someone telling him he's wrong and you know better.


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