# US top court backs white firefighters



## enjoynz (Jun 29, 2009)

In this day and age...what gives....I thought everyone has moved on... and we are all equal...maybe not?????

News article as Attached

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-firefighters-court30-2009jun30,0,796881.story


Cheers Enjoynz


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## Scout (Jun 29, 2009)

So they did't get promoted because there are not enough black officers, the had their higher test scores ignored in favour of a less qualified black individual.

That smacks of racism. The were right to contest it.


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## HotelCo (Jun 29, 2009)

I'm still trying to figure out how a test can stop black firefighters from getting promoted. To me, it's obvious that the white firefighters either had more experience, studied more, or are better at taking tests.


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## 46Young (Jun 29, 2009)

enjoynz said:


> In this day and age...what gives....I thought everyone has moved on... and we are all equal...maybe not?????
> 
> News article as Attached
> 
> ...



http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=107418  Good thread on the topic. Pay particular attention to post # 58.


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## enjoynz (Jun 29, 2009)

I guess the thing that gets me about this is, if the States is anything like education in New Zealand. Know matter what colour (color) skin you have,
the schooling (unless you can afford private, which most New Zealander's can't) is the same for everyone. 

It is up to the individual to make the best of his or her education.
Correct me if I'm wrong for thinking this way.

Something else to think about...academically girls are achieving higher marks than boys at school (at least in NZ they are)....does that mean they have a better chance of taking a lead role in companies, EMS even???
Food for thought!

We have cases here in NZ that certain ethnic groups are offered more support from the Government than others, and it does cause tension at times.

Enjoynz


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## 46Young (Jun 29, 2009)

enjoynz said:


> I guess the thing that gets me about this is, if the States is anything like education in New Zealand. Know matter what colour (color) skin you have,
> the schooling (unless you can afford private, which most New Zealander's can't) is the same for everyone.
> 
> It is up to the individual to make the best of his or her education.
> ...



That's the gist of it. One should be promoted based on their merits, especially in regards to emergency services. Best candidate for the job, period. If females are academically as well as physically up to the task, then I'd be happy to have them as my officer. Fairfax County FRD has plenty of females in positions of power. Promotions here are unbiased, and based on the individual's proficiency vs other candidates. This is what the New Haven 20 were fighting for in their jurisdiction. The argument is that protected classes are being given preferential treatment to the point of promoting to satisfy racial quotas, thereby passing over more qualified candidates, whatever their background may be. The blacks that were passed over for promotion argued that they, as a class, did poorly on the exam, so it must be biased. They're basically saying that they're too dumb, as a group, to pass the test. This is ridiculous, obviously. Being of a certain race doesn't genetically affect your IQ. It's all up to the individual.  Civil rights and Equal Opportunity laws are vitally important, but the pendulum has swung in the other direction. I want the most qualified personnel coming to my aid, not one who was inferior, and was given the nod purely to satisfy some number. I want the #1 candidate, not #68. It's dangerous.


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## WuLabsWuTecH (Jun 29, 2009)

I read the oral arguments for the case and almost KNEW that the case would go for the firefighters.  The 5-4 split does not surprise me at all though.  I have not read the decision (its 93 pages long) save for the syllabus and the holding, but it seems very fair.

I'm wondering what they are remanding it for though.  The city has been ordered to certify the results so why would a reman be necessary?


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## mct601 (Jun 30, 2009)

enjoynz said:


> I guess the thing that gets me about this is, if the States is anything like education in New Zealand. Know matter what colour (color) skin you have,
> the schooling (unless you can afford private, which most New Zealander's can't) is the same for everyone.
> 
> It is up to the individual to make the best of his or her education.
> ...



Typically it works that way, but because of the results, the FD (not being required to promote anyone) decided not to promote in fear of civil rights issues. I'm glad this passed- equality is for everyone, not just minorities.


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## HotelCo (Jun 30, 2009)

mct601 said:


> Typically it works that way, but because of the results, the FD (not being required to promote anyone) decided not to promote in fear of civil rights issues. I'm glad this passed- *equality is for everyone, not just minorities.*



Good quote. An mct601 original?


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## Shishkabob (Jun 30, 2009)

Thank god.

Affirmative Action is a horrible idea, and whoever was the first person to think of it, should be slapped.


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## rjddvm (Jun 30, 2009)

Originally, in the 1960s, affirmative action was intended to counteract blatant discrimination against minorities and women in areas like jobs, higher education, and voting, and to "level the playing field" so that qualified people were not discriminated against solely because of race, ethnicity, or gender.  

Unfortunately, in the last half-century or so, the original intent has been almost completely turned around by things like New Haven's original action in the Ricci case, which assume discrimination where none occurred.  It's often used to give less-qualified people an advantage over more-qualified people, and *assumes* that because someone is a minority or a woman, they must have been at a disadvantage, when that's not always the case.

In fact I would argue that as applied today, the principles of affirmative action actually work to the detriment of the people they're supposed to help, since the result is often a perception that a black/Latino/woman/disabled person only got where they are *because* of affirmative action, and not because they might be the best qualified for the job.


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## Shishkabob (Jun 30, 2009)

rjddvm said:


> person only got where they are *because* of affirmative action, and not because they might be the best qualified for the job.



And a lot of the time, it IS only because of that.

Tokens and quotas... tokens and quotas...


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## rogersam5 (Jun 30, 2009)

mct601 said:


> ...not just minorities.



And even that demographic is changing in some places in the U.S. where the whites are the minority...


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## TransportJockey (Jun 30, 2009)

I'm glad they got the case ruled in their favor. That kind of BS needs to stop. Just because your skin is a different color doesn't mean you should get special treatment


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## 46Young (Jun 30, 2009)

That's the bottom line - we're all supposed to be equal, but some think they should be more equal than others, if you know what I mean. Maybe in the distant future everyone will be cross bred and all this racism/predjudice nonsense will finally end.


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## Aidey (Jun 30, 2009)

There has been one thing about this case that has confused me from the get go. Several of the articles I've read stated "Fifty-six firefighters passed the exams, including 41 whites, nine blacks and six Hispanics. But of those, only 17 whites and two Hispanics could expect promotion." 

What has been left out is what was the reason those 19 people were eligible for promotion while the others were not. Did those 19 people have the top 19 scores? Or were there other factors like a physical agility test or an interview that were causing the other 37 people not to be eligible?


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## Sasha (Jun 30, 2009)

rogersam5 said:


> And even that demographic is changing in some places in the U.S. where the whites are the minority...



White men are still not the minority. Being the minority means being financially and politically weaker. White men still holds the wealth and the political power.


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## Shishkabob (Jun 30, 2009)

Sasha said:


> White men are still not the minority. Being the minority means being financially and politically weaker. White men still holds the wealth and the political power.



You're confusing political minority for demographical minority.     Not the same thing.



Sounds like you have a grudge against white men...


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## Sasha (Jun 30, 2009)

Linuss said:


> You're confusing political minority for demographical minority.     Not the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like you have a grudge against white men...



Negative.

10


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## WuLabsWuTecH (Jun 30, 2009)

Affirmative action was a great idea, but it was not suppossed to be an ongoing thing.  Once it gave minorities a chance, it was suppossed to go away.  Being a man of Asian descent, I've heard of the stories of the railroad workers in Calif. in the old days.  The government gave them a hand up out there, and eventually backed away.  Now in Calif. Asians are no longer, as a class, poor or uneducated.  Affirmative action out there was a great idea because it was used temporarily, to give those who were treated badly and were in such bad shape that they would not be able to make it on their own otherwise, a chance to make it.  Less than a decade later it was no longer needed.

I do feel that Asians are underrepresented in the public safety departments (around here, I AM the DIVERSITY), I feel that the test should know no color.  If a white man does one point better than me, then he gets the job, i don't want a 5 point bonus until someone proves that my being Asian gives me super powers to put out a fire by looking at it.  (In which case I will make a case for a 10 point bonus  )


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## Sasha (Jul 1, 2009)

Linuss said:


> You're confusing political minority for demographical minority.     Not the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like you have a grudge against white men...



http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

Even so, according to the last census, whites are still the majority, in all meanings, nationally.

And state wise in all but one state and in Washington, DC

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html 
Hawaii

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/11000.html 
Washington, DC.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/


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## Shishkabob (Jul 1, 2009)

I see no part about sexes... just self identified ethnicities.  

Plus that census is out of date, and will be redone next year.  I hate this whole 10 year thing.



Though I found this interesting;



> Language other than English spoken at home, pct age 5+, 2000 	17.9%


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## Sasha (Jul 1, 2009)

Linuss said:


> I see no part about sexes... just self identified ethnicities.
> 
> Plus that census is out of date, and will be redone next year.  I hate this whole 10 year thing.
> 
> ...



And? It was in response to "whites are becoming the minority" in only two places. White's aren't becoming the minority. Only in Washington, DC where African Americans are more numerous and in Hawaii where the population is dominantly Asian. Even in the poster of the comments state of Mass. white peple are the majority.

Women are more numerous but are the minority and hold less political and financial power. White men have always been the majority, always will.

For my last post, posted the country statistic link twice, here's Hawaii:  http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/15000.html


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## Shishkabob (Jul 1, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Women are more *numerous* but are the *minority*



Are we talking politically or demographically?  Because you're getting your terms mixed up.


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## Sasha (Jul 1, 2009)

Linuss said:


> Are we talking politically or demographically?  Because you're getting your terms mixed up.



Politically. I am NOT mixed up. Even demographically they are only the majority by less then a precentage point.


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## Shishkabob (Jul 1, 2009)

You're arguing population demographics in one post and political demographics in the other... which one are we arguing?


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## fortsmithman (Jul 1, 2009)

I hope that this thread is not the next to get locked.


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## Sasha (Jul 1, 2009)

Linuss said:


> Are we talking politically or demographically?  Because you're getting your terms mixed up.



I am arguing the fact that white people are not the minority in any sense of the word.

Doesn't make what happend to the fire fighters right, but all too often I see people whining "Us poor white people we are discriminated against now, too, and and and we are being outnumbered!" or "Us poor black people" or "Us poor asian people" or "Us poor one eyed one horned flying purple people eaters"

Equal is equal is equal. There will always be racism in the world, and I'm glad the fire fighters won their civil case.


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## Shishkabob (Jul 1, 2009)

White people, or white men?

I am so lost at what you're arguing now.



Here, just so I know what we're fighting, please-

Who is / is not a minority?
A) White men politically
B ) White men demographically
C) White people politically
D) White people demographically
E) I like pizza


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## Sasha (Jul 1, 2009)

Linuss said:


> White people, or white men?
> 
> I am so lost at what you're arguing now.
> 
> ...





> I am arguing the fact that *white people are not the minority in any sense of the word.*



ten characters


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## Shishkabob (Jul 1, 2009)

Sasha said:


> I am arguing the fact that white people are not the minority in any sense of the word.



And yet, you posted about 2 places where they ARE the (a) minority.


See where my confusion sets in?




Where is the .gif of the smacking purple people when you need it?


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## Sasha (Jul 1, 2009)

Linuss said:


> And yet, you posted about 2 places where they ARE the minority.
> See where my confusion sets in?



No, I see where you are nitpicking.

Here, I'll make you happy.

*Nationally speaking,* and where the poster of that comment lives, *white people *are the majority in every sense of the word.


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## enjoynz (Jul 1, 2009)

Anyone for a game of tennis?

If you really want to get down to it....the person with the least help from government/power is the 'Straight White guy with no underlying health problems or injuries!  :deadhorse: 
The main issue with this is an education thing, well that's what I read from it.
And again is there an issue that certain ethnic groups find it harder to learn than others? Which in turn causes them problems with filling out forms, sitting exams and finding work?

Enjoynz


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