# Get "Ambulance Workers" to take you seriously



## daedalus (Jan 29, 2009)

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/01/21/ep.911.women.heart/index.html#cnnSTCText?iref=werecommend



> The time it took for ambulances to arrive on the scene was similar for men and women, according to researchers at the Institute for Clinical Research and Health Policy Studies at Tufts Medical Center in Boston, Massachusetts, who published the study in the journal, Circulation: Cardiovascular Quality and Outcomes.  Watch more on women and emergency care »



The article is well written for women, but it  perpetuates two common EMS myths:

1. Response times. The public is always up in arms if we take one or two minutes longer to get there. We now know it does not make a difference to save these one or two minutes, and its much safer not to elicit a code 3 response to every call (I still strongly believe in emergency response in some instances).

2. We are "ambulance workers". We are responsible for this one. Its time to get some better PR. If you have the chance to talk to the media, take it, because if you do not the fire department will. People need to understand Paramedics are not on the job trained workers.

At the end of the article, it almost suggests telling the "emergency workers" that you feel pressure in your chest when you do not. Last time I checked, even EMTs can take a SAMPLE and OPQRST history and properly reveal signs and symptoms.


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## Sasha (Jan 29, 2009)

> At the end of the article, it almost suggests telling the "emergency workers" that you feel pressure in your chest when you do not. Last time I checked, even EMTs can take a SAMPLE and OPQRST history and properly reveal signs and symptoms.



Where? It's not telling people to say they have chest pressure, they're saying describe your symptoms. Which is a good suggestion. "I feel sick" Well, there are a lot of sicks. Good EMT/Medics will be able to ellicit a good history of present illness. But how many EMTs/Medics do you work with and wonder how they got their cert?


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## daedalus (Jan 29, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Where? It's not telling people to say they have chest pressure, they're saying describe your symptoms. Which is a good suggestion. "I feel sick" Well, there are a lot of sicks. Good EMT/Medics will be able to ellicit a good history of present illness. But how many EMTs/Medics do you work with and wonder how they got their cert?



Tis true!

_(this sentence added for the sake of the minimum character requirement to post)_


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## VentMedic (Jan 29, 2009)

This article is NOT about "ambulance workers". It is about women who are having a serious cardiac condition occuring but don't always present as the textbook describes. 

This is a very serious problem especially for the women. How about calling this thread *"Recognizing a Cardiac Problem in Women"*?

Women are difficult to recognize as having a heart attack. Read this article carefully. I know myself since I am at a vulnerable age for women and have lost several female co-workers and friends between the ages of 35 - 50 y/o to an MI. Only one of them had the classic signs of an MI. The others just "didn't feel good" or mistook the symptoms for being fatiqued or run down. They are now finding that women previously given the dx of Chronic Fatique Syndrome actually have serious cardiac problems. However, since the symptoms were so vague, their PCPs did not do a cardiac work up. 

This is also one of the reasons why I jump all over the person who posts a woman as "hyperventilating". (BossyCow are you reading this.) Hypoxia is the leading cause of hyperventilation which can also be caused by a heart that is starting to fail. Not that long ago and it still happens today, women having cardiac problems were treated for "anxiety" because their signs and symptoms did not fit the textbook. 

And, too bad if the article is distracting for those in EMS by using the term ambulance workers but if one looks at JPINFV's web link, at this time we really don't have a good term to fit all. Rather we have 50+ different titles that seem to change every few months in some states.


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## daedalus (Jan 30, 2009)

VentMedic, as you can see I stated it is a great article for women. Take a look at the title of the article-per CNN.com. It is titled "How to get ambulance workers to take you seriously".

Although we are patient advocates and this article is a great public service for women, we cannot be passive and let the title of "ambulance workers" slide.


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## Shishkabob (Jan 30, 2009)

You know what... I won't even go there.


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## VentMedic (Jan 30, 2009)

daedalus said:


> Although we are patient advocates and this article is a great public service for women, we cannot be passive and let the title of "ambulance workers" slide.


 
Great article for women who may die from an unrecognized heart attack but what to call an EMT is more of an issue? 

You would rather this be about what to call someone who works on an ambulance (when even those in EMS can agree on what to be called) instead of learning something very vital about the assessment of a woman with vague symptoms that might become fatal?

THIS ARTICLE IS NOT A PR FOR EMS PROVIDERS! Its intent is save the lives of women. That is by far a more pressing issue than bruising the egos of EMS providers who are suffering an identity crisis by their own doing. 

I doubt if the authors even took into consideration what to call "ambulance workers" since that is not the issue. The term "ambulance" is used since that is what someone usually calls for medical help and the people who work on the ambulance are "workers". This is national or international article and it would be very difficult to be "politicially correct" for all the people in different countries that do work on an ambulance. One could not even use the term "ambulance employee" because the volunteers would feel left out. If one said EMT, the Paramedics or MICTs or EMT-A-B-C-D etc would get ruffled. And then there are all the terms used in the other countries. I do however believe the FireMedics can complain since they may not associate themselves as being part of an ambulance.

Can you come up with a better term to recognize every level of EMS provider that is easily recognizable in all countries? Right now something with the word ambulance seems to be fairly universal. "EMS" may not be universally understood even in this country and not because of the ignorance of the public but because of the various services that provide ambulances and EMS.


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## Shishkabob (Jan 30, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Can you come up with a better term to recognize every level of EMS provider that is easily recognizable in all countries?



Oh, I don't know, EMT?  



We don't go around wearing "Ambulance" on our jackets, let alone "ecnalubmA" on the front.

Fact is, every level of EMT's in the US begins with EMT, then the 4th letter is another designation.  All are EMT's.  Kinda like all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.

EMT is recognized by the majority of the people in this country.  I don't care what another country calls their EMS personnel, because it has no effect on what we're called here.


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## VentMedic (Jan 30, 2009)

Linuss said:


> You know what... I won't even go there.


 
How serious would you take a 40 y/o African American woman whose only complaint was "she just didn't feel well" but felt she should call for help even though she can not really describe her symptoms. 

How about a hispanic woman? 

Would a cardiac problem cross your mind immediately or would you blow if off as just another BS call? 

What if she felt a little anxious? Vitals are normal as far as you can tell as an EMT-B. 

Try to talk them out of their anxiety? Paper bag or O2?


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## Shishkabob (Jan 30, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> How serious would you take a 40 y/o African American woman whose only complaint was "she just didn't feel well" but felt she should call for help even though she can not really describe her symptoms.
> 
> How about a hispanic woman?
> 
> ...





Thanks for assuming you know what I was commenting on, when in fact, you don't


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## VentMedic (Jan 30, 2009)

Linuss said:


> Thanks for assuming you know what I was commenting on, when in fact, you don't


 
You and daedalus just seem to be more concerned about what someone might call you than what issues the article is trying to address. 

But if you want to go there;

Just because you don't have the word ambulance on your jacket doesn't mean there isn't a service that does use "ambulance" on their jacket. Ambulance attendant is also a statute definition as well as a level for some states in this country. 

The vanity of this profession sometimes amazes me. Has the whole concept of patient care been lost because EMS can not establish an identity for itself? Do the patient issues have to take a backseat while EMS tries to figure out who and what it is? 

I would love to see the public response on an international article such as this if someone from EMS made their comments known that the offensive use of the word "ambulance worker" was more of an issue than women dying from heart disease. 

Pick and choose your battles carefully. Trying to over ride an international health issue because you don't like what you were called in the news may not be the appropriate time to gain points from the public.


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## mikeN (Jan 30, 2009)

I'm fine with ambulance worker.  The article doesn't downplay what we do.  I don't like being called an ambulance driver, but I don't lose sleep over this stuff.


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## daedalus (Jan 30, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Great article for women who may die from an unrecognized heart attack but what to call an EMT is more of an issue?
> 
> You would rather this be about what to call someone who works on an ambulance (when even those in EMS can agree on what to be called) instead of learning something very vital about the assessment of a woman with vague symptoms that might become fatal?
> 
> ...



Yes, in the face of unrecognized heart attacks in women, I am still concerned with what the public calls us. I still do not believe it is acceptable to write an article and include ambulance workers in the title.

So if we write a article about spousal abuse in the name of protecting women, but include "police car drivers to take you seriously" in the title, do you think that is acceptable? I do not care about the nature of the article, because it exposes a deep misunderstanding of what we do. The author had to have come up with the title from his/her own background knowledge and did not obviously understand what a Paramedic is.

By the way Vent, the "vanity" of EMS is not a issue here. We deserve to be called by our titles that we have earned. If you want to see vanity issues, go over and listen in on an American Medical Association meeting. They spend days thinking up ways to keep their vanity by introducing legislation to prevent nurses from calling themselves "residents" and trying to shoot down the "Doctor of Nurse Practitioner". They do this all in the face of a Primary Care crisis in the United States. Everyone else fights their own selfish battles and its time we do as well. 

Vanity issues would be myself going around as Daedalus, NREMT-B, AS, AMLS, ACLS, PHTLS, FEMA ICS, etc. This is not a vanity issue.


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## daedalus (Jan 30, 2009)

mikeN said:


> I'm fine with ambulance worker.  The article doesn't downplay what we do.  I don't like being called an ambulance driver, but I don't lose sleep over this stuff.



And there lies the problem. You just do not care.


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## VentMedic (Jan 30, 2009)

> *Yes, in the face of unrecognized heart attacks in women, I am still concerned with what the public calls us. I still do not believe it is acceptable to write an article and include ambulance workers in the title.*


 
So what do you want the article, that reaches many countries, to call people who work on an ambulance to be polictically correct in every part of the world? 

What title would you have suggested to still get the SAME message across for calling an AMBULANCE and the people who WORK on the ambulance that is EASILY recognized around the world?

Because you are an American, do you want only one of the 50 different titles from this country to be used? 

This article had a very important message which could have been used as a discussion for those that may see patients like this. Instead, the ego of American EMTs must be thought of first. I hope all those that ever want to write a worthy article concerning an important health issue realize the American EMT must have their recognition first. Maybe an American EMT should have been in that photo instead of a woman who survived a heart attack. 



> Vanity issues would be myself going around as Daedalus, NREMT-B,


 
Vanity includes making sure YOUR name and/or title gets mentioned for recognition. YOU want everyone to know who YOU are regardless of what else is going on. 



daedalus said:


> And there lies the problem. You just do not care.


 
Could it be he cares more about the patient care aspect of his job? Those who are also secure with who they are and what they do can still function regardless of what someone calls them. Regardless of what you call an EMS provider in this country, you will offend some group because there is no consistency across the map. It is not like we have the word "nurse". Do you think the many professionals in a hospital get bent out of shape when they aren't individually recognized but rather lumped into the terms "hospital workers or hospital staff"? Yes, each would like their day in the headlines but NOT if the story to be told takes precedence.

If this was an article about American EMTs specifically, then you could have something to complain about.

I guess it doesn't matter if I post this article under another category to discuss the real issues of this article since some will only be concerned about the words "ambulance workers" and not about patient care.


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## medic417 (Jan 30, 2009)

Won't work.  In Texas a Paramedic is either EMT-Paramedic or Licensed Paramedic, not EMT Licensed Paramedic.  Sorry to correct you.  



Linuss said:


> Oh, I don't know, EMT?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Sasha (Jan 30, 2009)

> Oh, I don't know, EMT?


What about the NREMTs? 

 If you go to a patient's house and they call you "Ambulance driver" or "worker" would correct them? It's not that big of a deal.

EMS has so many problems to work out before being worried about what the public calls them.


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## medic417 (Jan 30, 2009)

Sasha said:


> What about the NREMTs?
> 
> If you go to a patient's house and they call you "Ambulance driver" or "worker" would correct them? It's not that big of a deal.
> 
> EMS has so many problems to work out before being worried about what the public calls them.



I refuse to transport anyone that calls me ambulance driver.

Yup we have to big a mess to worry about titles.


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## Sasha (Jan 30, 2009)

medic417 said:


> I refuse to transport anyone that calls me ambulance driver.
> 
> Yup we have to big a mess to worry about titles.



I don't care what anyone calls me. I've been ambulance driver, ambulance worker, EMT, Transporter, and "Hey You"

I did a "stand by" at a career day for a elementary school where we presented our job to little kids, as best we could at their level. That day a few students simply called me "Ambulance" 

It's not really significant enough, if being called "Ambulance worker" bothers someone THAT much where they miss the whole point of a really great article, you have to wonder, are you in EMS for just the "cool job" title? If not, why are you being so vain?


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## VentMedic (Jan 30, 2009)

daedalus said:


> If you want to see vanity issues, go over and listen in on an American Medical Association meeting. They spend days thinking up ways to keep their vanity by introducing legislation to prevent nurses from calling themselves "residents" and trying to shoot down the "Doctor of Nurse Practitioner". They do this all in the face of a Primary Care crisis in the United States. Everyone else fights their own selfish battles and its time we do as well.


 
*"Doctor of Nurse Practitioner". *
It seems even the educated(?) fail to understand college degrees. 

Show me the forum and I'll post the 1998 decision for what "residents" are to be called.    

Some "interns" and "residents"  get extremely upset when they have to call the other professionals by their correct title and name of respect. 

These young doctors will be called a lot worst by the attendings.   

They are essentially still students.  They are there to learn from the other professionals in that hospital.   If they are already having these petty problems, they probably will be of no use to the world of medicine in the future and may get washed from the program anyway.   

On some of the anonymous forums you will find a lot of wannabes, could have beens and just dreamers who have no connection to the world of medicine.  A few of the EMTs, like yourself, are on those student doc forums.  Many will talk it up like they are more than they are because they don't think they get any respect elsewhere.   I'm sure there are a few of those on this forum also.


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## daedalus (Jan 30, 2009)

VentMedic, 

I did not now that a resolution adopted by the American Medical Association was a opinion of an anonymous wanna be doctor on the internet. 
And like it or not, even an "intern" is an MD and can order an RRT to change his or her treatment.

http://www.acnpweb.org/files/public/AMA_Resolution_303_Use_of_Title_Doctor.pdf



> RESOLVED, That our American Medical Association adopt that the title “Doctor,” in a medical
> setting, apply only to physicians licensed to practice medicine in all its branches, dentists and podiatrists (New HOD Policy); and be it further
> 
> RESOLVED, That our AMA adopt policy that the title “Resident” apply only to individuals enrolled in physician, dentist or podiatrist training programs (New HOD Policy); and be it further


-AMA resolution 303

EDIT: I understand the DNP degree in its entirety. It is an online fluff degree similar to a medic mill, and has almost no clinical component and instead focuses on management and other useless BS not relevant to the practice of advanced nursing. And, as I stated in my original post, being called ambulance workers is our own fault but we cannot allow it to continue. I am not even sure how you can argue with that. And FYI, the internet is not a place to receive medical advice so the article being important to women is moot. It does not accomplish its purpose and instead perpetuates the use of the term "ambulance driver". If anyone wants to learn about their health, they can speak to their residency trained board certified physician or his/her designated PA/NP under a MDs supervision.


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## Shishkabob (Jan 30, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> You and daedalus just seem to be more concerned about what someone might call you than what issues the article is trying to address.
> ...
> 
> Pick and choose your battles carefully. Trying to over ride an international health issue because you don't like what you were called in the news may not be the appropriate time to gain points from the public.




The original quote of mine you went off on and tried being all high and mighty didn't have a single thing to do with the topic you went off about.  So, as for your own advice, pick and choose your battles carefully.

I'm not about to get reprimanded for this thread, so I'm stopping here.


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## VentMedic (Jan 30, 2009)

daedalus said:


> And like it or not, even an "intern" is an MD and can order an RRT to change his or her treatment. The same goes for nursing.


 
NOT where I work since we do a lot of research and take orders only from the attendings running the show if we break protocol. The same goes for nursing orders and procedures. If they accompany us on transport, it is purely for observation. They are students still waiting to be trained on all the procedures that the RRTs and RNs have accomplished under the watchful eyes of the attendings. When they achieve the "nod" they too can be allowed to perform some skills and participate. 

An "intern" can only shadow in some of our ICUs and can not participate until 2nd year. They are too learn under their "masters" and their delegates first to ensure a thorough understanding of fast paced critical care medicine. 



> I understand the DNP degree in its entirety. It is an online fluff degree similar to a medic mill, and has almost no clinical component and instead focuses on management and other useless BS not relevant to the practice of advanced nursing.


The Doctor in Nursing Practice is NOT an online fluff degree. You are trying to speak with authority about something you are clueless about with information you have obtained from your student doctor pals online. 

http://www.aacn.nche.edu/DNP/DNPPositionStatement.htm

There are also other forms of doctorate degrees that nurses can obtain just like any other professional. 

To compare it to a medic mill also demonstates that you are not even a Paramedic yet and have no experience in that area either. 

This is what happens sometimes when one puts to much faith into the internet and anonymous forums. A lot of misinformation and heresay gets tossed around. 



> And FYI, the internet is not a place to receive medical advice so the article being important to women is moot.


 
Did you happen to notice where this article orginated from and what prompted the studies about women and cardiac disease? Please check the references and related links. Have you not taken a CPR class with similar links referring to these studies or was it just about the skills and not the education?

There are reasons why I tell people on the forums who read articles from magazines like JEMS to look up the original data in the medical journals listed at the end of each article.


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## daedalus (Jan 30, 2009)

I am not sure how we got to this point, lots of tension on the internet I suppose. This debate should have not come this far, as it was originally about the public's obsession with ambulance response times which I have seen locally in the City of Ventura in Ventura County, and, now on CNN where it was mentioned as if it was vitally important. Additionally, I am not making a controversial statement to suggest that we could all benefit from having a nationally recognized title such as just EMR (generic for all levels) and Paramedic (only for paramedics), and educating the public that we do not throw them into a van and only take them seriously if they tell us there is an elephant on their chest. If we were recognized as trained professionals, and understood for our advanced abilities and limitations, we would probably no longer be called ambulance drivers. This one is of course, our own fault. The article I pointed out is merely an example that we have not done our job.

Additionally, the signs and symptoms of AMI in women and diabetics are understood, and education with prevention can be accomplished in the primary care setting. 

I am far from alone in my beliefs of the DNP programs. My opinions have formed not only from online discussion but also from speaking to real physicians in the area. Vent, you would not be too happy if someone with half your education was demanding your scope of practice.


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## LucidResq (Jan 30, 2009)

daedalus said:


> EDIT: I understand the DNP degree in its entirety. It is an online fluff degree similar to a medic mill, and has almost no clinical component and instead focuses on management and other useless BS not relevant to the practice of advanced nursing.



WOW! I was pretty neutral on this debate until you had to step on something you obviously do not understand at all, never mind "in its entirety". As someone pursuing a BSN and eventually a DNP, I am actually somewhat offended for the first time on this forum. All of the DNP programs that I am aware of are intensive post-master's, doctoral programs. The link that Vent provided describes how the AACN has proposed that, by 2015, the DNP degree will be the level required to enter advanced practice nursing, and it is clear that NPs are becoming increasingly important in health care and will continue to do so. 

Most DNP programs are based on clinical specialties and therefore involve a very large clinical focus. And while some programs allow DNPs to specialize in things like health policy, usually those interested in specializing in areas such as administration go for a PhD. And how on earth can you say that management is not relevant to advanced practice nursing?


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## daedalus (Jan 30, 2009)

Lucid, I invite you to check out the "other side" of the argument against DNP.

It actually does harm to your profession, and perhaps my own. Its a form of degree creep, and its going to turn midlevel providers into another Physical Therapy fiasco. Soon, the entry level requirement to practice midlevel medicine is going to be a doctorate degree. This takes the advantage that midlevels have away and puts us in a position where we might as well just go to medical school. And there is a growing concern about the DNP programs, and I am far from the first one to point that out. Most require less than 2,000 hours of clinical rotations. Physicians require receive around 15,000 over the course of residency and medical school. 

NPs are very vital and their need will increase as no more med students choose to match into primary care. I believe we should keep them a masters level, with a notable exception for teaching, which usually requires a doctorate. But to practice, a masters should be all that is required. There is a vocal push to make the DNP a first professional degree required to practice.

Also, you should not be offended. You are going to take criticism all throughout your medical training. I myself hope to become a midlevel one day, so I assure you I am on your side. I just do not see midlevels as replacements for physicians and some believe, including the AMA, that DNP is a thinly veiled attempt to backdoor the process of becoming a physician. I stand behind the idea that only medical doctors should be called "doctor" in the clinical setting, even as I work to become a PA myself.

As you pointed out, doctorate level degrees will be required in the near future. I ask you, if you want to practice medicine as a "doctor", why not go to medical school? And, I do have a very solid grip on the nursing profession. The one person I respect the most in my life, my mother, just became an RN. She did this despite having put off school the last 20 years to raise myself and my sister and it took incredible discipline for her to go back to school that late in the game when she did not have to as my father has made a good retirement. I have seen first hand the making of a RN, and it was probably the hardest thing my mother had ever done. Now, my best friend is going through the same process and I have worked side by side with an NP at a community clinic for four years. I would wager I in fact do know a little about nursing and advanced practice nursing. And I know that NPs in my community afraid of degree creep up to the doctorate level, and view this as a bad thing.


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## VentMedic (Jan 30, 2009)

daedalus said:


> It actually does harm to your profession, and perhaps my own. Its a form of degree creep, and its going to turn midlevel providers into another *Physical Therapy fiasco.*


 
Where are you getting all of your misinformation from?

Do you work with PTs, DNPs or any type of medical professional holding an advanced degree?

I now find your posts very offensive as if blowing off a serious issue about women's health for your own insecure reasoning about working on an ambulance wasn't bad enough. Now you must bash other professions who have made themselves a solid presence in the healthcare industry through advancement of education.

Do you even understand how specialized and high tech some of these professions have become that now require higher levels of education?

Obviously not!

You are speaking with the education and experience of an EMT-B. 110 hours of training. But, of course, that and a log on to "student doctor", where probably over 60% have education levels no higher than you, believe you know more about everything. Students doctors would not be wasting hours posts on a mindless anonymous forum. Real student doctors belong to organizations on secure sites where they know who they are talking to. Even there they spend very little time chatting about the threats of nurses.



> that DNP is a thinly veiled attempt to backdoor the process of becoming a physician. *I stand behind the idea* that only medical doctors should be called "doctor" in the clinical setting, even as I work to become a PA myself.


Again, more crap coming from some forum. There have been RNs at the doctorate level for several decades. Many of these higher educated RNs helped to establish the first degree programs for Paramedics. 

As the link I posted stated the DNP has been around since 1979. 

There are also professions of every type that have doctorate degrees.



> NPs are very vital and their need will increase as no more med students choose to match into primary care. I* believe we should keep them a masters level,* with a notable exception for teaching, which usually requires a doctorate. But to practice, a masters should be all that is required. There is a vocal push to make the DNP a first professional degree required to practice.


 
It is not your profession to say what they should or should not do. Why do you want to keep their educational level down? 

I have my Masters and am going for a doctorate degree. Are you saying I am wrong for getting more education? 



> And I know that NPs in my community afraid of degree creep up to the doctorate level, and view this as a bad thing.


 
Broad blanket statement. Maybe you only have 2 NPs in your community who have the same insecurities you do about education. 



> also from speaking to real physicians in the area.


How many and what specialty? How old?
How many have actually taken time to read about DNPs or know one? Or, were they just listening to your own version and politely nodding? 



> Vent, you would not be too happy if someone with half your education was demanding your scope of practice.


People with a lot less education can do the same "skills" and do have the same "scope of practice" as I do as a Paramedic. It is my education that opens up other opportunities for research, education and various clinical situations I wish to pursue. 

You have a lot to learn about education and other professionals. You also have a long way to go before you have enough experience to call another degree or profession fluff, creepy, or a fiasco.

Enough with bashing professions you know too little about to be writing such inflammatory remarks. 

I would say you have even more insecurities about the DNP as it might relate to the PA.

What would you mother say if she knew you have such a low opinion of nurses and higher education? Maybe you think that nurses are not smart enough to be "educated" at a higher level based on your own mother's struggles with school. Believe it or not, there are nurses who have what it takes to raise the bar for a profession. 


Back to the article and OP:
quote by *daedalus*


> It does not accomplish its purpose and instead perpetuates the use of the term "ambulance driver". If anyone wants to learn about their health, they can speak to their residency trained board certified physician or his/her designated PA/NP under a MDs supervision.


 
It said Ambulance worker. The term Ambulance is well recognized throughout the world. All the "American" titles aren't. 

I think you stopped reading the article after you saw the title. Because of your own insecurites about who and what you are, it has prevented you from learning some interesting medical facts. 

If we were to go with your logic, there would be no Awareness organizations for AIDS, Breast Cancer, Prostate Cancer, Heart Disease (AHA), or whatever.



> Additionally, the signs and symptoms of AMI in women and diabetics are understood, and education with prevention can be accomplished in the primary care setting.


 
If you had read the originial articles, you would know the research and the autopsies on the dead women say otherwise. Cardiac disease in women has been and still is overlooked. 

Get over your insecurities about working on an ambulance and read articles about medicine if you are in this profession for more than just a cute uniform and title to go with all that L/S stuff. 

You might want to rethink some of your statements about education and other healthcare professionals. If you still feel others should not raise the bar on their education and advance professionalism, you might want to rethink your own future. Medicine is always advancing. As a PA you will have to work with people with various certifications/licensures and edcuation. Some will have more than you and some less. If you can not handle the thought of someone, "like a nurse", having more education than you, the medical profession probably is NOT for you.


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## VentMedic (Jan 30, 2009)

LucidResq said:


> WOW! I was pretty neutral on this debate until you had to step on something you obviously do not understand at all, never mind "in its entirety". As someone pursuing a BSN and eventually a DNP, I am actually somewhat offended for the first time on this forum. All of the DNP programs that I am aware of are intensive post-master's, doctoral programs. The link that Vent provided describes how the AACN has proposed that, by 2015, the DNP degree will be the level required to enter advanced practice nursing, and it is clear that NPs are becoming increasingly important in health care and will continue to do so.
> 
> Most DNP programs are based on clinical specialties and therefore involve a very large clinical focus. And while some programs allow DNPs to specialize in things like health policy, usually those interested in specializing in areas such as administration go for a PhD. And how on earth can you say that management is not relevant to advanced practice nursing?


 
LucidResq,
There will be people who will bash anyone and any profession because they have no knowledge of it or they are led to believe it infringes on their own turf in some way. 

You have done your own homework well enough to know daedalus' comparisons with MDs and RNs are lacking as well as the intent of the DNP programs.

*Go forth with your plans and let those who want to stop the advancement of medicine and the medical professions stay behind in the dust.*


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## Jon (Jan 30, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Try to talk them out of their anxiety? Paper bag or O2?



Amen, Vent. Saw this last week by bystanders... then the patient was in arrest 15 minutes later, during transport. Rattled my cage a little.


I also agree that all of us bring our own prejudices to the table, good or bad. We should be cognizant of them, and not allow them to influence our treatment plans.



Oh, and as a side note - it seems we've gotten a little 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.    Per Wikipedia, the field of NP begain in 1965 - that means they've been around about as long as EMS. Like us, they are still a growing and developing profession with many growning pains to endure. Lets just leave the topic at that for now.


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## Jon (Jan 30, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Won't work.  In Texas a Paramedic is either EMT-Paramedic or Licensed Paramedic, not EMT Licensed Paramedic.  Sorry to correct you.



OK... 1 level, in 1 state.

A proof as to why you should NEVER use absolute words like Always, Never, All, or None... without the "Almost" qualifier. It is too easy for someone to find 1 example against the statement, then your whole argument is called into question.



OK... regarding the article title: Has NAEMT complained yet? They have in the past when "Ambulance Driver" has been used.


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## medic417 (Jan 30, 2009)

Jon said:


> OK... 1 level, in 1 state.
> 
> A proof as to why you should NEVER use absolute words like Always, Never, All, or None... without the "Almost" qualifier. It is too easy for someone to find 1 example against the statement, then your whole argument is called into question.
> 
> ...



LOL.   Not aware of any complaints.  We've had licensed Paramedics for a long time.


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## daedalus (Jan 30, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Where are you getting all of your misinformation from?
> 
> Do you work with PTs, DNPs or any type of medical professional holding an advanced degree?
> 
> ...



I have the utmost respect for you but I do not believe that you are correct. In fact I strongly disagree with you. I have no insecurities with my job and resent the suggestion. You have read my posts before and you know I strongly encourage more education, and dismiss anyone in this for whackerism, ambulance glory, lights sirens, etc. 

I support furthering education. I support RNs pursing doctorates, but not as entry level. I do not support degrees that have not yet proved they are necessary. It is called degree creep, and numerous people that have mentored me in the past disagree with it. Masters degrees are prestigious enough and have been found to be effective for mid level providers. 

If this continues, and once the ball starts rolling it will, PAs will require a DSC to practice, eliminating the advantages it has over medical school. The US army has already developed a DSC-PA school and will be graduating them soon. Numerous civilian schools are looking into this. I in fact believe a masters degree is adequate for practice. If one wants to go from there, wonderful. 

I do in fact have well informed opinions. I believe that a doctorate degree in physical therapy as an entry level degree is excessive. 



> Of the accredited programs, 43 offered master’s degrees and 166 offered doctoral degrees.


- BLS.GOV



> In the United States, training in physical therapy culminates in a doctor of physical therapy (DPT) degree. A few programs still offer a Masters degree. (MSPT, MPT) All US programs are now transitioning to grant the DPT degree nationwide.


-wikipedia

There is to much of a chance that this is going to deter some people who would have become amazing PTs, all in the name of advancing a profession to a doctorate level when there is no evidence that this was ever needed. There should be Doctorate level degrees in PT, but for teaching and research, not mandatory entry level.


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## VentMedic (Jan 30, 2009)

daedalus said:


> I support furthering education. I support RNs pursing doctorates, but not as entry level.


 
The doctorate is NOT for entry level RN but for the advanced practice nurse. Since most are already Masters, it isn't that far of a leap to develop their area of specialty or further their expertise.



daedalus said:


> If this continues, and once the ball starts rolling it will, PAs will require a DSC to practice, eliminating the advantages it has over medical school. The US army has already developed a DSC-PA school and will be graduating them soon. Numerous civilian schools are looking into this. I in fact believe a masters degree is adequate for practice. If one wants to go from there, wonderful.


PA should be no less than a Masters. A specialty rotation can take another 18 months. The 2 year programs are no longer qualifying for script writing in many if not most states.



daedalus said:


> *I do in fact have well informed opinions.* *I believe that a doctorate degree in physical therapy as an entry level degree is excessive. *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
The Masters has already been PT's entry level for a long time. Medicine moves forward and requires more expertise. Your agruments can be applied to the EMT and Paramedic. 110 and 700 hours have been just fine so why go up a step? 

I don't think you do know what PTs do or what they are responsible for. Where did you get your opinions? Have you ever worked in a progressive Rehab for SCIs and TBIs? Do you know what goes into working with these individuals besides "stretching and walking"? Do you know the amount of complex care and expertise a rehab patient takes? 

I DO WORK with these highly educated and trained professionals. Those with a specialty doctorate are PRICELESS to the patients who benefit from their expertise. 

Please do not confuse all PTs with those that just walk grandma down the hall. Although, if you ever read their notes, nothing is missed in their thorough assessments. I definitely don't down play those that work in NHs or with geriatric stoke patients. Often, these patients do gain more independence with a good PT at their side. To give someone their basic functions back is again PRICELESS. 

I really don't know where you get your attitude toward PTs or why you are making it your mission to speak against education for these professionals when it is not your concern. This profession has maintained high standards for several decades and has been rewarded for its efforts. They know where their benefits lie and how to market their education to benefit both the patient and the Therapist. 

I guess you also have some opinions about the Respiratory Therapist going to Bachelors with a Masters recommended. RT is already way behind where it should be but then, it is half the age of EMS and younger than PT. OT, SLP, SLT and Dieticians all have raised to Bachelors and Masters. They too are looking more toward the Doctorate to compliment their areas of specialty. 

Even with a Masters degree I realize there is so much more I still have to learn even if I just continued to specialize in one area.  A professional doctorate would enable someone to explore their specialty indepth. 

Yes, I do know your other posts which is why I am puzzled by your negativity toward other professions and their education. Just because a profession stays at one degree level doesn't mean medicine no longer requires higher levels of expertise. EMS providers should have realized this long ago.

Do you want others to continue to use this same logic as you when assessing whether EMTs and Paramedics should at least require one college level prerequisite if the Associates in not to be obtainable in even your lifetime?


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## ffemt8978 (Jan 30, 2009)

Closed since it didn't get back on topic.


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