# Skip Kirkwood resigns from NEMSMA



## NomadicMedic (Jul 7, 2021)

I saw this start on Facebook last week and am impressed that NEMSMA cut ties so quickly.


Dear NEMSMA members,
On Friday, July 2nd, several members made the National EMS Management Association's (NEMSMA) leadership aware of comments made on social media by Director-at-Large Skip Kirkwood. The Board has reviewed the issue and agrees the statements by Mr. Kirkwood were inappropriate, insensitive, and not representative of NEMSMA's values. Director Kirkwood has apologized to the Board of Directors, affirmed that he did not intend to speak ill of any person or group, and has offered his resignation. The Board has accepted Skip's immediate resignation.
The NEMSMA Seven Pillars of National EMS Officer Competencies were published in 2014, which serves as the basis for our paramedic officer certification programs. Pillar #6 – Social Responsibility includes valuing diversity, among other traits. In alignment with the pillars, we will work to strengthen the code of conduct in our bylaws and the process to enforce that code as needed moving forward.
NEMSMA is an inclusive organization that welcomes the diversity of our members regardless of organizational size, corporate structure, ownership, or philosophy. We value our members from various EMS system models, organizational structures, and agency affiliations.
NEMSMA has always been and continues to be a collaborative and inclusive organization that encourages diversity and celebrates our differences. Our LGBTQI+ members and colleagues are wonderful examples of this inclusive association and should feel like they belong in our profession and our association. The NEMSMA Board of Directors and Executive Director not only stand behind but advocate for equity in support of LGBTQI+ leaders, clinicians, and patients.
We realize that diversity, inclusion, and equity are even more important in 2021, and we will be working to improve NEMSMA's efforts in this area moving forward. As always, we are open to input from our members as we try to build the next generation of leaders in paramedicine.


----------



## PotatoMedic (Jul 7, 2021)

Apparently I missed something.  But I also avoid work related stuff on my days off.


----------



## E tank (Jul 7, 2021)

What did he say?


----------



## NomadicMedic (Jul 7, 2021)

While commenting on an EMS1 article, he made some statements regarding the fair and equitable treatment of transgender patients that were not well thought out or received well.


----------



## GMCmedic (Jul 7, 2021)

If this is the same skip kirkwood who's Facebook profile is public, I'm surprised it took this long. 

Politics are best kept to yourself.


----------



## E tank (Jul 7, 2021)

NomadicMedic said:


> While commenting on an EMS1 article, he made some statements regarding the fair and equitable treatment of transgender patients that were not well thought out or received well.


but were they accurate?


----------



## CCCSD (Jul 7, 2021)

E tank said:


> but were they accurate?


Doesn’t matter nowadays…


----------



## DrParasite (Jul 8, 2021)

GMCmedic said:


> If this is the same skip kirkwood who's Facebook profile is public, I'm surprised it took this long.
> 
> Politics are best kept to yourself.


Why?  are his opinions any less valid than yours?  He just so happens to be an out and proud conservative, when it's not cool to have conservative beliefs. And he's retired, so it's not like he is going to lose his job over his beliefs


NomadicMedic said:


> While commenting on an EMS1 article, he made some statements regarding the fair and equitable treatment of transgender patients that were not well thought out or received well.


I read many of the comments he made... his comments weren't received well, but his points were actually well thought out (opinions, based on his experience), albeit unpopular.  I don't agree with them (and others made much worse comments in that thread), but he can say what he wants.  And deal with any consequences.  Truth be told, I don't think it was as bad as many were claiming, and NEMSA was simply doing damage control to prevent the loss of support, but who knows.

Until 2 days ago, I haven't heard of a trans person ever being mistreated by EMS.... I message the author of this article, and she advised me of one documented case from 1995 in DC, and I was told of one in 2015 in NYC but couldn't find any additional details.  His point was that it wasn't as common as people were making it out to be because he would never tolerate it at any agency that he was a leader in.  From personal experience, I have always treated trans and all cis and queer people the same, so maybe Skip was right, and this mistreatment wasn't as commonplace as some thought?

BTW, it was actually a really comprehensive article, and I recommend everyone reading it.








						Advocating, caring for transgender patients
					

No patient should be worried about discrimination in the back of an ambulance




					www.ems1.com
				




But I absolutely agree with the article:
No [transgender] patient should be worried about discrimination in the back of an ambulance​I just don't know how common this type of discrimination is in EMS, esp considering we have quite a few openly queer people in this field.


----------



## CCCSD (Jul 8, 2021)

It’s not. They are making another issue up to show how discrimination is rampant in EMS.


----------



## GMCmedic (Jul 8, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> Why? are his opinions any less valid than yours? He just so happens to be an out and proud conservative, when it's not cool to have conservative beliefs. And he's retired, so it's not like he is going to lose his job over his beliefs
> 
> I read many of the comments he made... his comments weren't received well, but his points were actually well thought out (opinions, based on his experience), albeit unpopular. I don't agree with them (and others made much worse comments in that thread), but he can say what he wants. And deal with any consequences. Truth be told, I don't think it was as bad as many were claiming, and NEMSA was simply doing damage control to prevent the loss of support, but who knows.
> 
> ...


Like it or not, it's not a great time to be a Conservative. Whether or not that makes people stop and think about what they post, is on them, and he did lose a job so there is that.


----------



## Fezman92 (Jul 8, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> BTW, it was actually a really comprehensive article, and I recommend everyone reading it.


It seems like it’s just basic sense stuff.


----------



## E tank (Jul 8, 2021)

CCCSD said:


> It’s not. They are making another issue up to show how discrimination is rampant.


FTFY. The problem, in the end, isn't 'discrimination'. It's people being tools. And that goes without saying.  But it serves a lucrative popular narrative currently to appropriate people being d***s and assigning that to advance an agenda that divides and marginalizes...danged if it isn't working, too...


----------



## Tigger (Jul 9, 2021)

None of us have any idea how rampant this discrimination is. Relying on reported cases to gauge a problem when the whole issue is that people are not comfortable speaking up for themselves isn't really going to work. This article sought to provide some education and tips, and why any sort of nefarious purpose for it is the immediate comment is quite unfortunate.


----------



## E tank (Jul 9, 2021)

meh...an article on the inherent dignity of people would have been a whole lot shorter and more relevant. As well meaning as it probably was, it just services the victim culture narrative that feeds the greater culture war that has gained such a strong foothold. 

What do I do when I don't understand the cultural particulars of a patient I'm treating? Be nice, that's what. Like literally every other single person I  know. And were they not, I'd call them out right then and there. 

But when everyone from ESPN to some ems website to my own hospital is taking up constant, unrelenting progressive race/gender imaging and messaging that I resist at my own peril, there's a lot more going on than 'education and tip's'.


----------



## NomadicMedic (Jul 9, 2021)

Tigger said:


> None of us have any idea how rampant this discrimination is. Relying on reported cases to gauge a problem when the whole issue is that people are not comfortable speaking up for themselves isn't really going to work. This article sought to provide some education and tips, and why any sort of nefarious purpose for it is the immediate comment is quite unfortunate.



If you read any research on the subject, you can clearly see that documented discrimination _and_ the fear of discrimination among the trans population is an issue.

This quote from a study exploring the health care experiences of trans nonbinary people shows it's NOT a sporadic instance, "Our results clearly indicate that there are major differences in who is able to access respectful healthcare providers. Over one-third of the total sample (37.01%) had experienced a provider not treating them respectfully when knowing about their TNB identity. Those experiencing depression and suicidal thoughts were significantly less likely to have had a provider treat them with respect."(Kattari, Bakko, Hecht, & Kattari, 2019).

(https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352827319303246)

Transgender individuals belong to one of the most stigmatized groups in society and gender-nonconforming people may experience harassment or discrimination from people who are scared or uncomfortable with these identities.

No one has the right to discriminate against another person, or to hurt them emotionally or physically. Especially a person who has a senior leadership role in the National EMS Management Association. You can look at it any way you like, but I believe there is no excuse for targeting trans people.


----------



## DrParasite (Jul 9, 2021)

NomadicMedic said:


> No one has the right to discriminate against another person, or to hurt them emotionally or physically. Especially a person who has a senior leadership role in the National EMS Management Association. You can look at it any way you like, but I believe there is no excuse for targeting trans people.


Hold on... that's not what happened.  No one from NEMSA's senior leadership said otherwise.  Skip didn't say otherwise.  if anything, you can say he wasn't sensitive to their concerns, or downplayed that it was a major issue, but he NEVER advocated for the targetting of trans people.

To say otherwise is a false accusation, a bold face lie, and is a complete misrepresentation of what occurred


----------



## NomadicMedic (Jul 9, 2021)

“another made up woke concern to further the alleged victimhood of a group.” 

Read that and tell me that he has not marginalized trans people.


----------



## Fezman92 (Jul 9, 2021)

Yikes


----------



## IFRMedic (Jul 9, 2021)

typical boomer FB profile. good riddance.


----------



## GMCmedic (Jul 9, 2021)

IFRMedic said:


> typical boomer FB profile. good riddance.


Typical Gen Z'r. 


See how generalizations work?

Be an adult, don't call people boomer.


----------



## mgr22 (Jul 9, 2021)

IFRMedic said:


> typical boomer FB profile.


Yep, especially the parts about being a Navy corpsman, an attorney, a paramedic, an educator, and a manager in three EMS systems.


----------



## CCCSD (Jul 9, 2021)

“Provider” meaning Physician, not EMS. That statement that Trans people are left for dead instead of treated is utter BS.

What a false pushed topic.


----------



## DesertMedic66 (Jul 9, 2021)

CCCSD said:


> “Provider” meaning Physician, not EMS. That statement that Trans people are left for dead instead of treated is utter BS.
> 
> What a false pushed topic.


Except it’s not.









						Discrimination Prevents LGBTQ People From Accessing Health Care
					

New data from the Center for American Progress show that LGBTQ people frequently avoid health care and experience discrimination in these settings, underscoring the importance of ACA.




					www.americanprogress.org
				




I work in an area that has a very high population of the LGBTQ+ community and hearing stories of some of the mistreatment that they have faced is absolutely horrible. From being told outright to “GTFO” or being pushed to the bottom of the line and then told the facility is closed to receiving subpar care.

Medicine has many major hurdles that are still occurring including racism and sexism to name a few.


----------



## E tank (Jul 9, 2021)

Left for dead by providers refusing to treat them because they were trans? Bull***t. 

Prove it. 

 People actually buy that BS? If there were 'providers' that would do that, they'd do it to anyone  for anything. And that would be crime, not discrimination. 

 As far as the "study" posted to demonstrate some claim of wide spread discrimination, the only thing it's a 'study' of is bias confirmation error.


----------



## DrParasite (Jul 10, 2021)

NomadicMedic said:


> View attachment 5326
> 
> 
> “another made up woke concern to further the alleged victimhood of a group.”
> ...


If anything, he was downplaying their concerns.  he wasn't saying anyone should target trans people.  

I don't agree with his comments, but your comments are accusing him of doing something that isn't supported by the actual evidence.  As I said previously:


DrParasite said:


> Hold on... that's not what happened.  No one from NEMSA's senior leadership said otherwise.  Skip didn't say otherwise.  if anything, you can say he wasn't sensitive to their concerns, or downplayed that it was a major issue, but he NEVER advocated for the targetting of trans people.
> 
> To say otherwise is a false accusation, a bold face lie, and is a complete misrepresentation of what occurred


----------



## DrParasite (Jul 10, 2021)

E tank said:


> Left for dead by providers refusing to treat them because they were trans? Bull***t.
> 
> Prove it.


This was one of the only examples I could find during a cursory check:




__





						Death of Tyra Hunter - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




And this is an accusation from an attorney in a lawsuit:








						EMS Denied Transgender Patient Care Causing Her Death, Alleges Sheepshead Bay Lawyer - Bklyner
					

ONLY ON SHEEPSHEAD BITES: Emergency responders left Shaun Smith to die because she is transgender, claims a lawsuit brought by the...




					bklyner.com
				



I don't think it's actually accurate (it's from a lawsuit, and very light on facts other than what the family assumes), but this is the fear among many in the community.

this was another NYC related case (much of it boils down to how you perceive what happened)








						Knock-Down-Drag-Out - The Village Voice
					

It was every mother’s nightmare. Police were at the door demanding to speak to her child— and they were pissed. “Why didn’t you just tell...




					www.villagevoice.com
				




some actual research on this topic:








						Minnesota EMS Providers Share Results of Research on EMS Care of Transgender Patients - JEMS: EMS, Emergency Medical Services - Training, Paramedic, EMT News
					

Research shows there is a significant discordance between how transgender patients perceive the care they receive from EMS, and how EMS providers themselves perceive the care they give to their transgender patients.




					www.jems.com
				




one statement of importance from the actual research:


> Researchers also found that misconceptions about EMS care exist in the transgender population just as they exist in the general population. For example, one transgender patient complained about an EMS provider who asked them about their stuffed cats while they were vomiting into a trash can. Certainly, one can imagine that the EMS provider may have just been trying to make friendly conversation, but anxieties in the patient population based on actual incidences of transphobia, like the death of Tyra Hunter, can lead them to perceive other dissatisfactory experiences, like being asked to walk out to the ambulance or not receiving a requested dose of pain medication, as transphobic as well.


So even the researcher realizes that just because something is perceived as transphobic, or is assumed to be transphobic, doesn't mean it actually was.  but the perception is there based on at least one historical incident.


----------



## Tigger (Jul 10, 2021)

Perception matters when dealing with individuals or groups with a history of being marginalized. “You” may not feel you are doing anything wrong, but as healthcare providers we do need to be cognizant of how our actions are perceived. Making a trans person uncomfortable by accident doesn’t let us off the hook. I imagine most providers don’t think they are being offensive, but that’s sort of the point.


----------



## ffemt8978 (Jul 10, 2021)

Tigger said:


> Perception matters when dealing with individuals or groups with a history of being marginalized. “You” may not fee you are doing anything wrong, but as healthcare providers we do need to be cognizant of how our actions are perceived. Making a trans person uncomfortable by accident doesn’t let us off the hook. I imagine most providers don’t think they are being offensive, but that’s sort of the point.


That's the problem that no one is willing to discuss.  If someone needs to be cognizant of how their actions are perceived by a person or group, then they need to be made aware of what that person or group views as offensive or discriminatory.  This means that the offended group is not being treated equally or the same as everyone else...they are being treated as different from everyone else because they have special standards that have to be met.  That's not equality, that is not even equity...it's forcing everyone else to treat them special and differently.

Is discrimination present in EMS and society in general? Absolutely.  Is it as rampant and widespread as advocates shriek?  I don't know but I doubt it.  Should every group get to determine how everyone else has to treat or interact with them?  Not if we want everyone to be equal.


----------



## Carlos Danger (Jul 10, 2021)

NomadicMedic said:


> “another made up woke concern to further the alleged victimhood of a group.”
> 
> Read that and tell me that he has not marginalized trans people.


So.....he essentially said that he doesn't believe that the issue being discussed is as common a problem as it is being portrayed, right?. And that somehow equates to "targeting" and "marginalizing"? Really? 

It seems to me that "I don't believe that the mistreatment of LGBTQ folks is a big problem in EMS" is a _very _different thing than saying "I am totally OK with the mistreatment of LGBTQ folks in EMS". I am simply not on board with the idea that if I don't actively champion for every interest of every minority group that I am automatically a bigot, a fascist, and a racist. But denying that "reality" is itself evidence of my bigotry and fascism and racism, I suppose?  Or maybe I'm just not yet fluent in Newspeak.


----------



## E tank (Jul 10, 2021)

A really important distinction needs to be made in conversations like these. There is a big difference between having a living, breathing human being in front of you that possesses dignity just by virtue of being a human being (not what color he is or what sex she says she is) and having a philosophical conversation of particular elements and dynamics of an issue. 

The former has no possibility of disagreement without there being someone that is objectively wrong in what they say/believe. The latter, however, has a broad spectrum of possibilities if for no other reasons than the scientific, sociologic and psychologic juries are out and there is no resolution in any of those areas in sight. 

There are ideological conclusions to be sure, but conflating an ideologic challenge with denying dignity to someone lying on a stretcher in front of you is at best ignorant and at worst a lie.


----------



## ffemt8978 (Jul 10, 2021)

E tank said:


> A really important distinction needs to be made in conversations like these. There is a big difference between having a living, breathing human being in front of you that possesses dignity just by virtue of being a human being (not what color he is or what sex she says she is) and having a philosophical conversation of particular elements and dynamics of an issue.
> 
> The former has no possibility of disagreement without there being someone that is objectively wrong in what they say/believe. The latter, however, has a broad spectrum of possibilities if for no other reasons than the scientific, sociologic and psychologic juries are out and there is no resolution in any of those areas in sight.
> 
> There are ideological conclusions to be sure, but conflating an ideologic challenge with denying dignity to someone lying on a stretcher in front of you is at best ignorant and at worst a lie.


Whose definition of dignity do you use?


----------



## E tank (Jul 10, 2021)

ffemt8978 said:


> Whose definition of dignity do you use?


Well, that's the rub isn't it? Less than 50 years ago, your question would have been met with a 1000 mile stare, as if you just stepped out of a UFO with one eye in your forehead. Martin Luther King and the American framers used the definition of (human) dignity that was pretty much made universal by the Judeo-Christian tradition. That is, if you're a human being, you're made in the 'image and likeness' of God and as such you had a sovereign, inalienable claim to that dignity. 

That there are many many individuals that claim identity in that tradition that have acted in complete contradiction to it isn't a question. It's one reason we're having this discussion. That doesn't change the fact that this is specifically where the idea that treating people with disrespect is bad got global exposure and assent. 

Now that this tradition has been pretty much jettisoned by the global culture, you're right, there is no consensus on what human dignity is or how someone qualifies. This is the tremendous danger. Now any group can arbitrarily declare what constitutes human value and what doesn't. If the history of the 20th century is any indicator, that should give anyone the chills...


----------



## Seirende (Jul 10, 2021)

Fezman92 said:


> It seems like it’s just basic sense stuff.



I have had to explain to friends the difference between sexual orientation and gender identity. There's a woeful lack of understanding in the public at large.


----------



## mgr22 (Jul 10, 2021)

Seirende said:


> I have had to explain to friends the difference between sexual orientation and gender identity. There's a woeful lack of understanding in the public at large.


True, but that's not surprising, considering how new that topic is to many of us.

It's going to take me some time to adjust to a different way of thinking about gender. I don't mind -- I just need some patience from those who are already comfortable with the non-binary paradigm.


----------



## E tank (Jul 10, 2021)

Seirende said:


> I have had to explain to friends the difference between sexual orientation and gender identity. There's a woeful lack of understanding in the public at large.


Not gonna apologize for not getting it. By definition these are psychological and therefore subjective constructs that may or may not conform to scientifically verifiable realities and are as variable as there are individuals expressing them. 

 What I will be is polite and compassionate.


----------



## Seirende (Jul 10, 2021)

E tank said:


> Not gonna apologize for not getting it. By definition these are psychological and therefore subjective constructs that may or may not conform to scientifically verifiable realities and are as variable as there are individuals expressing them.
> 
> What I will be is polite and compassionate.



We could take this on a very philosophical tangent, but that might be too far outside the scope of this thread


----------



## E tank (Jul 10, 2021)

Seirende said:


> We could take this on a very philosophical tangent, but that might be too far outside the scope of this thread


why God created PM's...


----------



## Carlos Danger (Jul 11, 2021)

E tank said:


> Not gonna apologize for not getting it. By definition these are psychological and therefore subjective constructs that may or may not conform to scientifically verifiable realities and are as variable as there are individuals expressing them.
> 
> What I will be is polite and compassionate.


This pretty much perfectly sums up my feeling on the whole thing.

That, and being so tired already of seeing others accused of being "intolerant" or "bigots" simply for not understanding or agreeing with these relatively new and subjective realities.


----------



## GMCmedic (Jul 11, 2021)

Carlos Danger said:


> This pretty much perfectly sums up my feeling on the whole thing.
> 
> That, and being so tired already of seeing others accused of being "intolerant" or "bigots" simply for not understanding or agreeing with these relatively new and subjective realities.



And by definition bigotry is subjective and often times those calling someone a bigot are bigots themselves.


----------



## Tigger (Jul 15, 2021)

Some content was removed. 
We will engage in discussions here, but we will not tolerate hate speech.


----------



## Emily Starton (Aug 5, 2021)

Relax guys, just relax. Don't let your hate eat you. Relax 😇


----------

