# Paramedics return dead body through window of locked house



## VentMedic (Oct 22, 2007)

*Would you have continued to the hospital with the body? 
Try to contact the hospital and the family while waiting in the ambulance with the body?
Break into the house and leave the body?
Other?*

*San Marcos to pay for returning dead body through window of locked house *

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/10/20/news/top_stories/21_12_0110_19_07.txt

By: SCOTT MARSHALL - Staff Writer 

VISTA ---- A Superior Court jury ruled Friday that the city of San Marcos must pay roughly $236,000 to the family of a dead San Marcos man whose body paramedics returned to his locked home as the family went to the hospital, the family's attorney said.

The city's attorney could not be reached Friday afternoon for comment. 

Natalie Collet and the woman her attorney described in court as her former "life partner," Denise Dougherty, filed a lawsuit in August 2005 against the city of San Marcos, the county and their employees in connection with an Oct. 6, 2004, incident involving Collet's stepfather, Kenneth Collet, 58.

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/10/20/news/top_stories/21_12_0110_19_07.txt

Quote from article


> Attorneys on both sides of the case told jurors at the start of the trial that after Kenneth Collet was pronounced dead, authorities decided to take his body out of an ambulance parked outside the home where he lived and put him back inside the residence. His stepdaughter and Dougherty already had left for the hospital, however, and locked the doors behind them.
> 
> With the approval of a sheriff's deputy at the scene, a firefighter paramedic found an unlocked window, entered the home through it and opened the door to allow his colleagues to enter and return Collet's body to the home, attorneys told the jury.


http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/10/20/news/top_stories/21_12_0110_19_07.txt


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## N1ESE (Oct 22, 2007)

Wow, sounds messed up by several agencies and the EMT's were following orders.  Hard to say what to do when you have orders to follow.

- JT


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## Chimpie (Oct 22, 2007)

A _side_ question to ask is: Was the patient dead prior to arrival of the ambulance (ex: died in their sleep) or did the patient die while in the care of the paramedics?


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## SafetyPro2 (Oct 23, 2007)

Chimpie said:


> A _side_ question to ask is: Was the patient dead prior to arrival of the ambulance (ex: died in their sleep) or did the patient die while in the care of the paramedics?



The previous article linked to from the one above states he'd been removed from the house and placed in the ambulance out front when the base hospital nurse made the decision to pronounce and not transport, but it doesn't seem to explicitly say that whether or not the patient was in arrest prior to being packaged or not.

Sticky issue. If the patient's in arrest and you're going to do a base pronouncement, I'd think you'd do it prior to packaging the patient. If not and they code in the back, it's a tough call. I had a patient with a DNR code just as we hit the street outside an SNF, and we continued the transport.


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## triemal04 (Oct 25, 2007)

Nice.  Somebody is going to get reamed over this one, but hopefully more info comes out before that happens.  If it was me I wouldn't have gone back into the house without someone from the family there.  If that meant waiting for awhile...that's the way it goes sometimes.  There is also the option of transporting the guy to the hospital while still not working him; done that before with a little different scenario, and as long as the ER is ok with taking the body to their cold storage...that is where the family is.  

I just can't see putting the guy back into the house with nobody around.  I can see loading a pt into the car almost immedietly, even if he was allready coded and you were going to work it on scene due to the reaction of family and what was going on at the scene.  Hopefully the full story on this comes out soon.


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## BossyCow (Oct 25, 2007)

SafetyPro said:


> Sticky issue. If the patient's in arrest and you're going to do a base pronouncement, I'd think you'd do it prior to packaging the patient. If not and they code in the back, it's a tough call. I had a patient with a DNR code just as we hit the street outside an SNF, and we continued the transport.




I think once the patient is in your rig, the family is on its way to the hospital, regardless of who decides to call the code, the only thing to do is proceed to the hospital.  It may mean we spend the time on the trip cleaning the rig up, writing report and making the pt. presentable to be seen by family (removing tubes etc).  Nothing sticky about that!  This crew determined to break and enter into a home, and leave a recently deceased, unattended in the home without the permission or even informing the family.  Totally unforgivable in my opinion.  Lots of errors in judgement here, the biggest being the committing of a crime to break and enter the home.


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## Grady_emt (Oct 27, 2007)

BossyCow said:


> I think once the patient is in your rig, the family is on its way to the hospital, regardless of who decides to call the code, the only thing to do is proceed to the hospital.  It may mean we spend the time on the trip cleaning the rig up, writing report and making the pt. presentable to be seen by family (removing tubes etc).  Nothing sticky about that!  This crew determined to break and enter into a home, and leave a recently deceased, unattended in the home without the permission or even informing the family.  Totally unforgivable in my opinion.  Lots of errors in judgement here, the biggest being the committing of a crime to break and enter the home.



Removing Tubes?????  Thats a big No-No around here even if it is a case for the M.E. or not, tubes, IVs, stay in when we call at home and at hospital.  We also have to bag up all the used supplies on a field term as the ME usually wants to take a look through them as well.

If it gets to the point that you are packaging the pt, then HANG UP (nicely) on med control.  Unless your service routinely transports corpses, it can turn into a big issue as no ER will accept a Pt that has already been pronounced.  One of our crews had this very problem several years ago, and had to sit on the ramp at the ER until our Director could get the M.E. to accept the body.  The crew was on hold with Med Control and started packaging the pt, then placed the pt in the unit as Med Control picked up.  They then gave a report to the Doc who approved, but the pt was alread in the unit.  The ER wouldnt accept them, the M.E. didnt want them since the body had left the scene and it took alot of political maneuvering to get things taken care of.


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## BossyCow (Oct 29, 2007)

Grady_emt said:


> Removing Tubes?????  Thats a big No-No around here even if it is a case for the M.E. or not, tubes, IVs, stay in when we call at home and at hospital.  We also have to bag up all the used supplies on a field term as the ME usually wants to take a look through them as well.



We have a different system.  We have deputy coroners who can call a death in the field under certain circumstances.  In this particular case, the MPD called the code, with a familiarity with the patient and his history.  We are allowed to remove tubes and IV's prior to the family seeing the body.  But only under the direction of the MPD on a per case basis.


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## reaper (Oct 29, 2007)

Them guys could get arrested for B&E.

I would have just propped him up on the steps!!!!


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## Airwaygoddess (Oct 30, 2007)

Policy and protocals, if there was not one to follow I'm sure there will be now!  Wow.... so that amount is for damages or did it pay for the funeral? h34r:


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## Stn2Emtb (Nov 25, 2007)

Now I may be comming from left field here but, WHY????   What on all of the ethics and training you get as a medic would you DO such a thing.  Returning a body is not EVER an option. Since you have them in your Rig take them to the HOSPITAL.  This is Disturbing.  :sad:


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