# is being a CCP as good as being a RN?



## goodgrief (Nov 11, 2010)

We were talking yesterday in paramedic class, and someone mentioned that it would only be an extra 8 classes (1 year) to get our R.N after graduating Paramedic. 

Now I have NO NO NO NO NO NO wish to EVER be a nurse (shivering at the thought), I am not knocking nurses it is just not what I want. However I do want to be on a heli one day, and I wonder if it would be a wise move since I could still practice as a Paramedic with a R.N license, 

Do you think, down the road, I would better off to be a Critical Care RN then just a CC paramedic, employment wise?

Of course all this depends on if I make it through medic school alive.


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## Veneficus (Nov 11, 2010)

goodgrief said:


> We were talking yesterday in paramedic class, and someone mentioned that it would only be an extra 8 classes (1 year) to get our R.N after graduating Paramedic.
> 
> Now I have NO NO NO NO NO NO wish to EVER be a nurse (shivering at the thought), I am not knocking nurses it is just not what I want. However I do want to be on a heli one day, and I wonder if it would be a wise move since I could still practice as a Paramedic with a R.N license,
> 
> ...



Employment wise, get your RN.

Before you completely discount "wanting" to be an RN, I encourage you to spend some time with a CC or Flight RN, you might find they are a lot closer to paramedics then you may have given them credit for.


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## bbledsoe (Nov 11, 2010)

*Ccp*

If I had my way it would be. But the EMS profession seems to fight increased education at every turn. It is a daily battle. Frustrating...


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## Shishkabob (Nov 11, 2010)

Dr Bledsoe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




GG... something you might want to look in to is Respiratory Therapy, since you want to be on a helo.  In my experience, flight medics are in control of the airway, and many flight medics that I know also have their RT (some have RN).  Get your RT as that can help if you decide field medicine isn't for you either.


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## goodgrief (Nov 11, 2010)

That is why I dont want to be a nurse, I want to be in the field, not in a hospital.

Thanks for the thoughts, Im all for higher education,  one of the reasons I was against the RN route was it will push back my bachelors. 

And I agree with you on the fighting at every turn with education, I just wrote a paper on why having an assoiciates should be a requirement to be a paramedic in the US.  

Im going to talk to the school and see what is in the details, and go from there. 

thanks yall


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## abckidsmom (Nov 11, 2010)

RN, Paramedic is such a flexible combination that I recommend it to everyone who asks me for education advice.  You can work in so many healthcare settings, doing SO many different jobs.  

CCP is kind of a joke.  Without daily experience providing critical care, the numbers are just fluff that you barely understand.


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## Akulahawk (Nov 11, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> Employment wise, get your RN.
> 
> Before you completely discount "wanting" to be an RN, I encourage you to spend some time with a CC or Flight RN, you might find they are a lot closer to paramedics then you may have given them credit for.


I'd say that Critical Care Transport RN's and Flight RN's are a LOT closer to Paramedic than you might think. Critical Care RN's and ED RN's can (and do) function more autonomously than other RN personnel, but they generally still have someone available to back them up right there, a shout away at most. CCT/Flight RN personnel, during transport, must think more like a Paramedic.

All of the flight programs that I'm familiar with prefer to hire RNs that have field experience (especially as a medic) because it's far easier to train them than it is to take a Hospital-only CCRN and train them for the field. One Chief Flight Nurse flat out stated that it takes them 6 times longer to train the Hospital-Only RN.


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## Akulahawk (Nov 11, 2010)

As to Critical Care Paramedic - I agree with Dr. Bledsoe. The two should be equivalent, and getting them that way is possible. Just not likely at this point in time. Making the minimum entry educational level for Paramedic be the Associate's Degree is just the start. You'd still have to provide for significant levels of clinical experiences during the education and allow for on-going refresher training in those clinical areas. What's going to be especially difficult would be getting Paramedics authorized to provide care in any Critical Care area, especially as they're not RN's and RN's may see that as an encroachment on "their" scope and jobs.


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## usalsfyre (Nov 11, 2010)

Akulahawk said:


> ...especially as they're not RN's and RN's may see that as an encroachment on "their" scope and jobs.



What REALLY burns my rear about this is they have no problem encroaching on physician's teritory with the DNP program and demands they be treated as equals because "they're doctors too". Yet anyone with approprite education tries to work in their area of specialty and they start screaming.


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## usalsfyre (Nov 11, 2010)

goodgrief said:


> We were talking yesterday in paramedic class, and someone mentioned that it would only be an extra 8 classes (1 year) to get our R.N after graduating Paramedic.
> 
> Now I have NO NO NO NO NO NO wish to EVER be a nurse (shivering at the thought), I am not knocking nurses it is just not what I want. However I do want to be on a heli one day, and I wonder if it would be a wise move since I could still practice as a Paramedic with a R.N license,
> 
> ...



As Dr. Bledsoe noted, they should be, but they're not. It is entirely possible to elevate your knowledge of care beyond what a typical RN knows, but currently there is no way to recognize that over a 10 week medic mill wonder.


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## Shishkabob (Nov 11, 2010)

usalsfyre said:


> What REALLY burns my rear about this is they have no problem encroaching on physician's teritory with the DNP program and demands they be treated as equals because "they're doctors too". Yet anyone with approprite education tries to work in their area of specialty and they start screaming.





*cough* Community Paramedics *cough*


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## TransportJockey (Nov 11, 2010)

Linuss said:


> *cough* Community Paramedics *cough*



Wake County and... Crap I can't remember what service that Chris Montera from EMS Garage works for, but anyways. Both of those services are trialing the Community Paramedicine program and it seems to be bringing in good results. I hope it can find widespread acceptance, especially since you find very few RNs willing to do public health. It makes sense that Paramedics take over that role, but then we'd have to find somethign other than Emergency Medical Services to call ourselves, and I know a lot of whackers that will oppose that


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## Shishkabob (Nov 11, 2010)

jtpaintball70 said:


> Crap I can't remember what service that Chris Montera from EMS Garage works fo



Eagle County Ambulance District



Also, MedStar here in Fort Worth is doing Advanced Practice Paramedics... same thing just a different name.  They still send CCPs with extra education out to minimize frequent fliers.  They also send the APPs to all cardiac arrests and things of that nature.


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## Veneficus (Nov 11, 2010)

usalsfyre said:


> What REALLY burns my rear about this is they have no problem encroaching on physician's teritory with the DNP program and demands they be treated as equals because "they're doctors too". Yet anyone with approprite education tries to work in their area of specialty and they start screaming.



At one point I got upset over the idea of a DNP, but then I saw what their curriculum is and how they function.

They are simply people who want to play doctor. They have neither the science education nor the ability. 

They are very much nurses in all respects, they know what to do as long as the patient fits easily into a protocol but identifiying patients who are anything but textbook and treating outside the cookbook protocols they use is so completely beyond them I no longer feel threatened. 

They can get any degree they like, but they will never live up to "doctors" until they go to medical school.

In the meanwhile, only the people in the US will buy into the bull of people making up their own standards to be called doctor when they lack the ability commitment, or drive to do what it takes to put MD or DO after their name. 

Best of luck to them, and more luck to their patients who get swindled by their ignorance and deception.


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## WTEngel (Nov 11, 2010)

*Critical Care Specialties*

Whether you go the RN route, the CCP route or the FP-C route, you will have to put in at least 3 - 5 years of intense practical experience before you really have any business getting into flight or critical care transport. That's just my $0.02.

So, you can put in 3-5 years in a busy 911 rig doing all sorts of field work, or you can take another year or so in school and then spend 3-5 years in an ICU, ER, or both....making literally two or three times the salary.

The most unfortunate fact of the entire matter is that the rising stars in EMS always tend to leave the field to pursue better paying option with an expanded scope of practice (i.e. PA, RN, Med school, etc.)

As had been mentioned before, the route to gaining the respect that so many of us feel we deserve will come from education and professionalization of our industry. This will be a direct result of requiring Associate's degrees at a minimum, and then getting 4 year schools to offer Bachelor's and Graduate programs. If EMS were to copy any one thing from nursing as a profession, it would be their road map to professionalization of their industry. Do you think nursing became a high demand, excellent paying profession by some stroke of luck?

Anyway, sorry to hijack the thread a bit...but seeing Bledsoe's remarks encouraged me to weigh in on the issue. 

My two bits...go get your RN. as others have mentioned, you would be surprised at how intense working in an ICU or ER can be, and that experience comes in very valuable when you make your move to flight.

TE


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## EMSLaw (Nov 11, 2010)

Much like with paramedics, states have widely differing protocols on how they allow advanced practice nurses to function.  The fact of the matter is that if you want a plenary license to practice medicine, you have to go to medical school.  

Law isn't that different, by the way.  While the AMA has been jealous in protecting their profession by limiting the number of medical schools, the ABA hasn't done the same with law schools.  On the other hand, lawyers face much less encroachment into their practice areas than doctors do. 

Nurses are the most common targets of the whole "they want to be called doctor" thing, but the ongoing increase in training standards for health professions (which is a good thing) has lead to lots of non-MD doctors out there.  Pharmacy, physical therapy, even chiropractic.  I suppose I would expect such people to be very forthright about the fact that they /aren't/ my physician, even if they are entitled to the title "doctor."  Just like I'd hope that advanced practice paramedics would have something more along the lines of a master's degree than an associates if they're going to be out there prescribing medications, even under protocols (which, at that level, necessarily leave some room for the practitioner's clinical judgment).  

And since I've got a doctorate, and there are plenty of ethics opinions saying I can use it...

I'm Dr. EMSLaw, from the legal department...


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## Veneficus (Nov 11, 2010)

First glad to see you are back posting.



EMSLaw said:


> I'm Dr. EMSLaw, from the legal department...



That sounds alot better than " I'm Dr. Soandso, and I will be your nurse."


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## abckidsmom (Nov 11, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> At one point I got upset over the idea of a DNP, but then I saw what their curriculum is and how they function.
> 
> They are simply people who want to play doctor. They have neither the science education nor the ability.
> 
> ...




I understand your resentment of the DNP program (resentment might be too harsh...), but I do see that NPs are a vital part of inexpensive healthcare when everyone "deserves" it.  NPs do have enough exam skills to detect when they're out of their league, and I've yet to meet one who doesn't immediately turf the patient out to someone with a clue.  Plus, they have enough time in their day to really do the patient education that's going to make a long-term difference in preventative medicine.

There's a place for everyone, I think.


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## EMSLaw (Nov 11, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> That sounds alot better than " I'm Dr. Soandso, and I will be your nurse."



I was under the impression that DNPs were primarily for nurse practitioners.  So I guess it would be "I'm Dr. Smith, and I will be your mid-level non-physician practitioner today."

Admittedly, doctorates in Nursing aren't so common yet outside academia, though they're picking up now (I think they'll be required for all new nurse practitioners in NJ within the next five years), but I do have one observation...

When I go into the ERs near us, most rooms have a whiteboard that has the date, and then the names of the people responsible for the room, I guess so the patient knows who to yell for.  So, your Tech is Gary, your LPN/CNA is Patti, your RN is Mary, and your physician is Dr. Smith.  The line that says PA/NP doesn't say "Dr. Jones."  It says, "Betty".  I've never seen it say "Dr. Jones."  So, at the moment there is still a distinction.


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## Veneficus (Nov 11, 2010)

abckidsmom said:


> I understand your resentment of the DNP program (resentment might be too harsh...),.



It is sort of like some guy who was a cook in the navy trying to pass himself off as a SEAL.

All of the NPs that I know make it very plain they are not physicians. Of course they are also nurses who spent a great deal of time being nurses before pursuing an advanced degree so they are well aware of the differences in education.

I think the major problem comes from the ones who go through academia to doctorates and come out that do not realize their limitations.   




abckidsmom said:


> but I do see that NPs are a vital part of inexpensive healthcare when everyone "deserves" it.



I think everyone deserves a MD/DO. To find out if you can be turfed to a protocol. Not see if you fit the protocol and if it doesn't work you get turfed to a doctor. No patient should ever be shunted to a doctor. They should always be shunted from.

From the economic standpoint, in my experience it doesn't save money. It just adds an extra level with an extra bill. One of the common practices in hospitals now to get extra money out of payers is to have a NP see patients a couple days a week, then have the physician oversee this and bill for both the NP and the Physician. 

In all fairness, if the NP is the one managing the Pt. the NP should be the only one getting paid. Physicians are not reimbursed for administration, they are reimbursed for their clinical practice.



abckidsmom said:


> NPs do have enough exam skills to detect when they're out of their league, and I've yet to meet one who doesn't immediately turf the patient out to someone with a clue.



It is not the ones that turf people out quickly that really worries me. It is the ones who think they are "doctors" and they can handle it.

I have only met one in person, a "wound care DNP" who didn't recognize early signs of Group A strep infection on a patient because he didn't know that the skin degeneration is by the same mechanism in burns, Strep A, and pemphigus. So he insisted that the patient didn't have an infection and need to be refered to a doctor because there wasn't local redness or tempature increase. In a circulatory compromised pt., early identification of infection has a mch better prognosis than waiting for grossly obvious signs. 

The fact is, he didn't know what he was looking at in his field of specialty. I doubt it is a systemic issue, but it really makes me wonder how often it comes up and if the education really is preparing them for the role they envision themselves in.




abckidsmom said:


> Plus, they have enough time in their day to really do the patient education that's going to make a long-term difference in preventative medicine..



I think this is a major benefit of the DNP. But it was always part of nursing. Which means that the rank and file nurses are not doing it. 

I also think the DNP can make a significant contribution in helping patients comply with their medical treatments.

The issue is when people start wanting to stop focusing in where they do help to pretend to be as capable as somebody else. I am sure you have noticed that on a large scale, nursing has been steadily moving away from its core foundations and principles in order to branch out to other roles. That is great as long as you are still doing what you are supposed to, but I think nursing as a whole in the US is failing at that. Otherwise there would be no need for so many techs. Which also increases the cost of healthcare when you need to hire people to do the original job because the person who was supposed to be doing it is now "branching out."


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## goodgrief (Nov 11, 2010)

WTEngel said:


> Whether you go the RN route, the CCP route or the FP-C route, you will have to put in at least 3 - 5 years of intense practical experience before you really have any business getting into flight or critical care transport. That's just my $0.02.
> 
> TE



100% agree. I know that I need at that time working a high volume 911 job before even thinking about going to the flight. The CC program I was looking at wont even take your app unless you have been working for at least 3 years.


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## goodgrief (Nov 11, 2010)

WTEngel said:


> This will be a direct result of requiring Associate's degrees at a minimum, and then getting 4 year schools to offer Bachelor's and Graduate programs. If EMS were to copy any one thing from nursing as a profession, it would be their road map to professionalization of their industry. Do you think nursing became a high demand, excellent paying profession by some stroke of luck?
> 
> TE



I agree with you on this as well, minus the bachleor degree part. I do think that for paramedics to move forward we must 1. require everyone to graduate from an accrediated school (Emt-B through Paramedics) and 2. paramedics must have an associates degree.


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## TransportJockey (Nov 11, 2010)

Linuss said:


> Eagle County Ambulance District
> 
> 
> 
> Also, MedStar here in Fort Worth is doing Advanced Practice Paramedics... same thing just a different name.  They still send CCPs with extra education out to minimize frequent fliers.  They also send the APPs to all cardiac arrests and things of that nature.



Thank you for the assist. And I knew there was at least one more place that was doing it, but I just couldn't remember where all they were. I also think I heard of at least one place in Alaska doing it too, which makes perfect sense due to the remoteness up there


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## TransportJockey (Nov 11, 2010)

goodgrief said:


> I agree with you on this as well, minus the bachleor degree part. I do think that for paramedics to move forward we must 1. require everyone to graduate from an accrediated school (Emt-B through Paramedics) and 2. paramedics must have an associates degree.



I'm with you on this. I do think, however, that CCT medics and community health paramedics should be required to have the BS of Paramedicine, similar to most ICU RNs more and more being required to have a BSN (At least at my old hospital system and the others in that city)


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## MrBrown (Nov 11, 2010)

*Brown sprints up in his orange jumpsuit with "DOCTOR" written on it

Yes hello its Brown one of the HEMS Doctors .... so much for Brown deciding to go to nursing school


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## abckidsmom (Nov 11, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> I think the major problem comes from the ones who go through academia to doctorates and come out that do not realize their limitations.



And there are nursing schools out there worse than any medic mill you ever saw.  Those people scare the snot out of me.




> I think everyone deserves a MD/DO. To find out if you can be turfed to a protocol. Not see if you fit the protocol and if it doesn't work you get turfed to a doctor. No patient should ever be shunted to a doctor. They should always be shunted from.
> 
> From the economic standpoint, in my experience it doesn't save money. It just adds an extra level with an extra bill. One of the common practices in hospitals now to get extra money out of payers is to have a NP see patients a couple days a week, then have the physician oversee this and bill for both the NP and the Physician.



I disagree entirely.  I think the extra level of billing comes from greediness, a desire to squeeze as much money as possible out of a blindly formulaic reimbursement system, so in a less corrupt world, this wouldn't be one of the downsides.

On the contrary, I believe that every patient deserves a NP.  Or at least an old-fashioned primary care doctor who had time to know them, talk about *everything* and really provide primary care.  If you have a good relationship with a (good) NP, you have that old fashioned primary care, because remember that most of those guys weren't really on the cutting edge of brilliance, medically speaking.  They were busy doing their jobs, not always riding the wave of education.  




> It is not the ones that turf people out quickly that really worries me. It is the ones who think they are "doctors" and they can handle it.



I had a homebirth with a lay midwife last year.  I completely understand.  



> I think this is a major benefit of the DNP. But it was always part of nursing. Which means that the rank and file nurses are not doing it.
> 
> I also think the DNP can make a significant contribution in helping patients comply with their medical treatments.
> 
> The issue is when people start wanting to stop focusing in where they do help to pretend to be as capable as somebody else. I am sure you have noticed that on a large scale, nursing has been steadily moving away from its core foundations and principles in order to branch out to other roles. That is great as long as you are still doing what you are supposed to, but I think nursing as a whole in the US is failing at that. Otherwise there would be no need for so many techs. Which also increases the cost of healthcare when you need to hire people to do the original job because the person who was supposed to be doing it is now "branching out."



This branching out results directly from the overadminstrationization of healthcare.  (new word, how do you like it?)  When nurses have to spend all day doing paperwork to justify a patient requiring a $800 hospital bed for which the hospital is going to actually recieve $500, there's no time for true nursing care.

In the ER, it looks like when the nurse is busy providing primary care to a 2 month old whose mom doesn't know how to feed him, she's missing the opportunity to provide direct care to the guy with chest pain in the next room, and needs a tech for that IV, labs and 12 lead.


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## WTEngel (Nov 11, 2010)

*Associate's vs. Bachelor's*

In regards to the associate's vs. bachelor's disussion, the issue is really quite complicated...

On one hand we have a majority of medics who have chosen to pursue EMS education via vocational means. This is nearly 100% of your firefighter paramedics. Most firefighters did not have an interest in EMS to begin with, but found it to be an unfortunate requirement of the job (I used to be one believe it or not!) So increasing the requirement to an Associate's at a minimum would see a huge drop off in ALS providers. 

Again, I think for any professional paramedic, an Associate's is really the minimum entry level requirement. For the paramedic that wants to pursue a management track or even a program director position, there needs to be some sort of Bachelor's of Pre hospital emergency medical science or some such thing. 

Once someone has completed a Bachelor's, options similar to that of nursing should be available at the graduate level. For example, offer a MSEd for EMS in addition to research and other options. At the graduate level I could envision there being a Paramedic Practitioner type degree, comparable to an PA or NP...

So there it is. We need a vocational route, professional route, Bachelor's options, and ultimately graduate level education specific to our profession.

It will not happen though. EMS tends to think that just because we are doing an acceptable job right now with the minimal education we have, that the system is not broken. I have had the privilege of working with paramedics from around the world, and while I will always say America produces outstanding medics, our educational requirements when compared to similar countries and even smaller countries, are absolutely embarassing.

This is ultimately why EMS will remain a vocation and not a profession in the USA. I want to change it though... And I will keep fighting for it!


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## bstone (Nov 11, 2010)

Get your medic, RT and RN. You'll be amazing.


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## Shishkabob (Nov 12, 2010)

goodgrief said:


> 1. require everyone to graduate from an accrediated school (Emt-B through Paramedics)





People put way too much weight on accreditation in it's current state.  Think about it... is a CAAS agency instantly better than a non-CAAS agency?


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## medichopeful (Nov 12, 2010)

bstone said:


> Get your medic, RT and RN. You'll be amazing.



Already working on that now! 

Though I must say, I'm pretty damn amazing as it is.  B)


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## MrBrown (Nov 13, 2010)

If you ask Brown people put too much emphasis on skills and autonomous ability to use said skills  .... and yes, also on accrediation.

Oh and nobody is more amazing than Brown


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## Shishkabob (Nov 13, 2010)

Nah, skills matter a bit.  A Paramedic relegated to acting in the capacity of an EMT is not much more useful than an EMT. 




Knowledge is good, the ability to use said knowledge it better.


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## JPINFV (Nov 13, 2010)

Linuss said:


> Knowledge is good, the ability to use said knowledge it better.



Knowledge without power is impotent, power without knowledge is dangerous.


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## Shishkabob (Nov 13, 2010)

Depends on what we're talking about here, though.


Do you think Paramedics in our current form lack the knowledge required to do a needle thoracostomy? 


Yet, even if a Paramedic somehow forgets bronchi vs bronchiole, I'd rather have them there with the ability to do one rather than an EMT not when one is called for.  (So long as the medic knows to do it above the rib and not below....)


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## JPINFV (Nov 13, 2010)

Linuss said:


> Depends on what we're talking about here, though.
> 
> 
> Do you think Paramedics in our current form lack the knowledge required to do a needle thoracostomy?
> ...



Knowing when and when not to do it is what's important. Heck, it can be taught in about a minute. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDRTzmuwMnQ#t=1m18s

Does this mean that since an EMT can be taught how to do the procedure that we should allow EMTs to do it?


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## Shishkabob (Nov 13, 2010)

That was neither the issue at hand nor the argument being made.


The issue at hand is that I hate when people say "skills mean nothing" or "skills mean very little".  Correct, we probably shouldnt have the interventions that we can't justify through science and education, but again, skills have a place.  Are they "what we do", or can they define us as a profession?  No.  But without interventional skills, the role of EMS might as well go back to the days we were in Hearses as that'd be about as useful as we'd be. 

"Oh look, you have an allergic reaction.  Well, we should get moving, because we have a 15 minute drive to the hospital and there's no reason to stay here since I can't give you any drugs"

Education needs to match, or exceed, the skill.  But the skills have a place.


PS-- I sure as hell hope 99.9% of Medics don't go "Hmm, he can't breath, so let's just pop a needle into his chest!" on every SOB call.


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## JPINFV (Nov 13, 2010)

Two things. First, for some reason I thought you were talking about needle crics, not needle thoracostomys, but that's honestly neither here nor there. 

Second, I never discussed what level of education was required. Yes, I think most EMS providers in the US are under educated for what they're required to do, but I didn't name any specific procedure. I was simply commenting that knowledge and power go hand in hand and that one without the other is not a good situation. What I don't like about discussing "skills" is that it distills down patient care into several individual actions. Skills themselves are important, but much less important than the overall concept of interventions and the goal that you're working for.

To me, using a car analogy, skills are the specific act of turning a wheel, pressing the break, pressing the gas (EMS equilivant of starting an IV. Squeezing a BVM, etc). The concept that you have to put those together to move along a road is like an intervention (I'm going to start an IV and push specifically ___ medication, I'm going to head tilt/chin lift, use a C/E grip, and squeeze a BVM, etc). Finally, deciding where you're going and how you're getting there is the goal. In EMS, this is the diagnosis and care plan. I'm pushing ____ medication because the patient is suffering from ____. 

All three are important, and you can't get to the goal without mastery of the individual skills, but the individual skills aren't important without understanding how they fit together to form interventions and treat diagnosis.


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## Shishkabob (Nov 13, 2010)

Totally in agreement.


It's 2am... misreading happens.


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## 8jimi8 (Nov 14, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> The issue is when people start wanting to stop focusing in where they do help to pretend to be as capable as somebody else. I am sure you have noticed that on a large scale, nursing has been steadily moving away from its core foundations and principles in order to branch out to other roles. That is great as long as you are still doing what you are supposed to, but I think nursing as a whole in the US is failing at that. Otherwise there would be no need for so many techs. Which also increases the cost of healthcare when you need to hire people to do the original job because the person who was supposed to be doing it is now "branching out."




The problem is physicians spend on average 30 seconds of face time with each patient.  If physicians could spend more time doing the education, you would see an increase in compliance.  The reason RNs are branching out is because there is a demand and a void that is being filled.  

You'll note NP client satisfaction ratings?  Merely coming from spending time with the patient.  I know you are busy.  Slow down and you'll see clients returning appropriately.


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## 8jimi8 (Nov 14, 2010)

And back to the title of the thread.


During the EMS expo, i took the Critical Care Paramedic Certification Review course.


I was already familiar with all of the "critical care" concepts that they taught in the review exam.  EXCEPT for the flight physiology / flight safety concepts.  I learned all of this information from my 2 weeks in nursing school where they covered critical care.

So no, being a critical care paramedic does not equal an ICU nurse.   Critical care paramedics are being tested over basic nursing school curriculum.  (rather the curriculum i just studied last month was NOT much more than I learned in nursing school, and certainly did not cover the breadth and depth of what I learned in the 6 week "ICU class" that I took when I started working as an RN. 

No offense to any current professionals.  I'm not saying I know more than you or have had better or more experience, only that the education that I have seen as an RN was quite more in depth than what I've seen in my EMS studies.  Who knows, maybe medic school will amaze me, i'll know next semester.


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## Ridryder911 (Nov 14, 2010)

8jimi8 said:


> And back to the title of the thread.
> 
> 
> During the EMS expo, i took the Critical Care Paramedic Certification Review course.
> ...



Wow! I don't know what nursing school you went to but; I have never seen any nursing school discuss vent's, IABP, or even how to read an ECG... even the NCLEX will not or cannot test over any critical care as it not part of the standardized curriculum for nursing programs. 

Hence; that is why the majority of critical care areas have internships, externships over period of months to train and educate general nurses into that speciality..... 

I know some of the authors of the CCP-C examination and they assured me that is much more difficult than that of the CCRN examination and over the pilot study test that was given to them many (CCRN) had difficulty passing the examination. 

Are CCP the same as a RN? .. .NO! And a CCRN is not the same as a CCP.... the goal is the same but you cannot and should not compare to separate professions. 

R/r 911


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## Veneficus (Nov 14, 2010)

Ridryder911 said:


> I know some of the authors of the CCP-C examination and they assured me that is much more difficult than that of the CCRN examination and over the pilot study test that was given to them many (CCRN) had difficulty passing the examination.
> 
> Are CCP the same as a RN? .. .NO! And a CCRN is not the same as a CCP.... the goal is the same but you cannot and should not compare to separate professions.
> 
> R/r 911



I still think the OP would have more opportunity and better pay as an RN than as a CCP.


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## 8jimi8 (Nov 14, 2010)

Ridryder911 said:


> Wow! I don't know what nursing school you went to but; I have never seen any nursing school discuss vent's, IABP, or even how to read an ECG... even the NCLEX will not or cannot test over any critical care as it not part of the standardized curriculum for nursing programs.
> 
> Hence; that is why the majority of critical care areas have internships, externships over period of months to train and educate general nurses into that speciality.....
> 
> ...



In nursing school we were required to be able to read basic rhythms and some lethal arrythmias.  We definitley learned all of our ventilator settings and thinking back on it we did learn about balloon pumps in school. We didn't learn how to time them on a console, but we learned the theory behind th device.  I don't recall the ccp-c class talking about balloon pumps during cardiology, that may have been one of the sections that they sent us home with for self-study.  Since I wasn't taking the exam, I didn't go home and study.  

Again,  I wasnt denigrating any of the professions under discussion, but I was more than comfortable with the material covered in the review class.  Perhaps, I attended a class that would have ill prepared me to take the ccp-c exam?


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## goodgrief (Nov 14, 2010)

WTEngel said:


> some sort of  Bachelor's of Pre hospital emergency medical science or some such thing.



There are these degree already out there, UPITT overs a Bachelor's in Emergency medicne especially for Paramedics, and George Washington has a bachelors and a master in Emergency Medical Services.


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## goodgrief (Nov 14, 2010)

bstone said:


> Get your medic, RT and RN. You'll be amazing.



Hahaha 
I was driving home today and I was thinking about just, The sad part is it would take me 4 hours to do and I would just have three associates degrees. 

The update is I found out my school does not offer a Paramedic to RN program, so I would either have to go 2 more years for an RN or leave the state for another program.


At this point my goal is to get through the first semester of paramedic school, and if I live through that. go from there lol


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## goodgrief (Nov 14, 2010)

Linuss said:


> People put way too much weight on accreditation in it's current state.  Think about it... is a CAAS agency instantly better than a non-CAAS agency?



If accrediation didnt matter then public schools wouldnt need it to teach finger painting in 1st grade

h34r:


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