# D50



## Guardian (Nov 30, 2006)

I just want to bring up an issue I've been seeing a lot lately.  In paramedic class, I learned D50 can cause tissue necrosis (death) if the IV is infiltrated (which you can't always see).  I also learned that whenever you give a med (or whatever else for that matter), you always assess the risks verses the benefits of giving that med.  They never went into any more detail but common sense told me to never give D50 unless you have no other choice.  Why then am I seeing ALS providers giving D50 to hypoglycemic pts who are awake.  I ran a decreased BGL call last week where the glucometer read 20 and the pt was awake, not quite oriented, slurring speech, slightly lethargic, all the normal stuff.  I was riding double ALS and my paramedic partner wanted to give D50.  I wanted to give a little oral glucose and have the pt eat breakfast.  Apparently my partner didn't like that because that might take 10-20 mins instead of 20 seconds with the D50.  Here is my question to ems educators--why don't these paramedics know any better?  Could I be wrong?  Is there some reason why we should give D50 to people who are awake and not in immediate danger?


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## trauma1534 (Nov 30, 2006)

I like D50, it is quick and to the point.  As long as you check your line before you give it, in the middle of giving it and after you give it, by pulling back for blood.  There are risks associated with alot of things we do in the EMS field.


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## Guardian (Nov 30, 2006)

you can't always tell by looking or drawing blood back and who does that anyway.


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## akflightmedic (Nov 30, 2006)

If they were still concious with a sugar of 20, I would have given D50 as well but only maybe half an amp. Give just enough to get them oriented and then make sure they eat. No sense in jacking their sugar sky high when a half dose will suffice and get them to the point where they can eat some complex carbs which is what they truly need. 

But I have no hesitation using oral glucose when indicated.

As for drawing back on the line during D50 administration, who has ever done that??!!

Its hard enough to push it yet you are going to draw back 3 times??

After you start pushing it, you wouldnt see blood anyways, you would be aspirating the D50 back.


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## trauma1534 (Nov 30, 2006)

akflightmedic said:


> If they were still concious with a sugar of 20, I would have given D50 as well but only maybe half an amp. Give just enough to get them oriented and then make sure they eat. No sense in jacking their sugar sky high when a half dose will suffice and get them to the point where they can eat some complex carbs which is what they truly need.
> 
> But I have no hesitation using oral glucose when indicated.
> 
> ...



I do the pull back, not always 3 times, but I do pull back on the line.  Sorry, think what you want about it, but that is how I was taught from the book and in the field.  Everyone I've worked with who gave it did the pull back on the line to check.


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## Fedmedic (Nov 30, 2006)

akflightmedic said:


> As for drawing back on the line during D50 administration, who has ever done that??!!
> 
> Its hard enough to push it yet you are going to draw back 3 times??
> 
> After you start pushing it, you wouldnt see blood anyways, you would be aspirating the D50 back.



I do it everytime I give D50(blood aspiration before, middle and end) and have been doing in that way since I started giving D50. All you do is pinch the line off, if you have a patent IV you will draw back blood very easily. All you do is draw back enough to see it come back in the syringe, then start administering again. It is a good habit to get into and to document accordingly, in case something does come up down the road. And that goes back to the EXPERIENCE vs. EDUCATION thing. That is not something your taught in class, just something I picked up over the years.


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## FFEMT1764 (Nov 30, 2006)

I always give D50 if to patient who are hypoglycemic IF I think for half a second that they might not be able to maintain their airway. If they can maintain, then I give the oral glucose time to work, and then I also use OJ with 2-3 tablespoons of sugar in it too. If they are conscious then I will spend 30-45 minutes on scene with them. If they are out then the D50 comes out too.


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## jeepmedic (Nov 30, 2006)

Guardian said:


> you can't always tell by looking or drawing blood back and who does that anyway.



This is the way I was taught to give D-50.  D-50 is a very dangrous drug to the tissue if not given right. I was taught by an old medic and procepted by more old Medics. Why would you not aspirate for blood on a given drug that is caustic to the tissue. To me this is common sense. It is just like starting an IV and not checking for aspiration. DUH:wacko:


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## jeepmedic (Nov 30, 2006)

Now if a Pt. with a BGL of 20 can not sign a refusal then he can not protect his airway good enough to receive oral glucose so yes D-50 would be indicated. I have seen diabetics with blood glucose levels of 100 that were unresponsive. You treat your pt. not your numbers on your equipment.


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## FFEMT1764 (Nov 30, 2006)

I was never taught to aspirate D50, and have never seen it done in the field. I have, however, aspirated the line with NS to check for blood return prior to drug administration. I also wont give D50 in anything smaller than an 18 gauge catheter and I prefer to use AC veins to aminister it unless the are a younger diabetic and the hand viens are well developed.  I have seen someone who didnt check the patency of their IV before D50 and saw the necrosis begin to occur in a very, very short time. NOT A PRETTY SIGHT!:angry:


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## trauma1534 (Nov 30, 2006)

jeepmedic said:


> Now if a Pt. with a BGL of 20 can not sign a refusal then he can not protect his airway good enough to receive oral glucose so yes D-50 would be indicated. I have seen diabetics with blood glucose levels of 100 that were unresponsive. You treat your pt. not your numbers on your equipment.



You dang skippy!


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## FFEMT1764 (Nov 30, 2006)

jeepmedic said:


> I have seen diabetics with blood glucose levels of 100 that were unresponsive. You treat your pt. not your numbers on your equipment.


 

Makes me wonder when the glucometer was last calibrated, but I have seen people at 100 altered because their normal ranger is 160-240...thats why its always important to check your equipment daily!


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## Fedmedic (Nov 30, 2006)

I have given D50 to patients that were awake and had a low blood sugar(usually less than 40) just because we could clear the scene in 15 minutes as opposed to an hour. When you have calls holding because all of your ambulances are tied up, then you have to get 10-8 as soon as possible. I don't see a problem with it as long as YOU KNOW YOUR IV IS PATENT, you won't have any problems. D50 is a safe drug. Its all about the provider being competent.


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## FFEMT1764 (Nov 30, 2006)

Fedmedic said:


> I Its all about the provider being competent.


 

That is the truth...and we have a few here who are unfortunately not very competent. Example, someone gave Ativan IM with a BLUNT cannula. This was done without consulting med control, and the only Ativan we have on orders is IV for adult SZ...and this person is bragging about giving it IM with the blunt cannula. As in a plastic blunt cannula at that!!!!<_<


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## Fedmedic (Nov 30, 2006)

FFEMT1764 said:


> As in a plastic blunt cannula at that!!!!<_<



OUCH!!!!.......That was pretty assinine.


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## FFEMT1764 (Nov 30, 2006)

Yeah, and this medic thinks she is the stuff too, until the stuff hits the fans then from what I hear she hides in the corner of the box and starts spazing outB)


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## jeepmedic (Nov 30, 2006)

Bet she is in the front looking back asking if you are ready to transport yet. We have one like that at the Fire Dept. He is all talk until you have a bad call then he is in the drivers seat ready to drive. (He can't do that eather)


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## Ridryder911 (Dec 1, 2006)

What the heck is a "blunt cannula"? 

R/r 911


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## Fedmedic (Dec 1, 2006)

Ridryder911 said:


> What the heck is a "blunt cannula"?
> 
> R/r 911



I think he is talking about a plastic catheter used in a needless port system.


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## trauma1534 (Dec 1, 2006)

Fedmedic said:


> I think he is talking about a plastic catheter used in a needless port system.



Who ever did that was a friggin idiot!!!!


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## Ridryder911 (Dec 1, 2006)

That's what I presumed that it was a med injector. If that is the case, a couple of things, they should be reviewed and possibly reprimanded, and certification and license reviewed for possible removal. If this is the case, this person is an idiot and should be removed form EMS.

Using device not used as designed for use, second the med probably did not reach muscular area, rather into sub-q  tissue. 

R/r 911


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## FFEMT1764 (Dec 1, 2006)

Rid,
I think she will be caught once the report makes its way through our QA process, but that could take a week or two since we are paperless and it take 5-10 minutes just to open a call for review by the QA Lt. I hope that she gets busted, she is the laughing stock of the service and to think she just got her medic in the past 6 months!


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## Guardian (Dec 2, 2006)

Ridryder911 said:


> That's what I presumed that it was a med injector. If that is the case, a couple of things, they should be reviewed and possibly reprimanded, and certification and license reviewed for possible removal. If this is the case, this person is an idiot and should be removed form EMS.
> 
> Using device not used as designed for use, second the med probably did not reach muscular area, rather into sub-q  tissue.
> 
> R/r 911



yep, no nice way around this, that person is an idiot.


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## Guardian (Dec 2, 2006)

jeepmedic said:


> Now if a Pt. with a BGL of 20 can not sign a refusal then he can not protect his airway good enough to receive oral glucose so yes D-50 would be indicated. I have seen diabetics with blood glucose levels of 100 that were unresponsive. You treat your pt. not your numbers on your equipment.




Note to everyone...I'm trying to be nice and post within the rules, but when people post like this, it's hard.  


First you say anyone who cannot sign a refusal cannot protect his/her airway enough for OG...that is just wrong and I feel sad there are people like this in ems.  Then you say treat your pt, not the numbers...I agree but doesn't this contradict what you just wrote?  I need a strong drink...


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## Fedmedic (Dec 2, 2006)

Guardian said:


> First you say anyone who cannot sign a refusal cannot protect his/her airway enough for OG...that is just wrong



I think it is a matter of where you come from and what you were taught. I was taught not to put anything, including oral glucose, in the mouth of a patient that was less than A/O x 4. Why take the chance on airway compromise. There are too many ways to increase the blood glucose levels without having too take a chance. Even if you're a BLS provider, someone on here mentioned rectal oral glucose(now that's an oxymoron) anyway, I'm not above trying it, if that is all I can do. It makes perfectly good sense, medications cross the rectal membranes almost as fast as IV meds. No chance of aspiration then. Of course they may wake up a "sore azz."


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## Stevo (Dec 2, 2006)

I suppose Glucagon helps these situations...

~S~


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## Ridryder911 (Dec 2, 2006)

Fedmedic said:


> I think it is a matter of where you come from and what you were taught. I was taught not to put anything, including oral glucose, in the mouth of a patient that was less than A/O x 4. Why take the chance on airway compromise. There are too many ways to increase the blood glucose levels without having too take a chance. Even if you're a BLS provider, someone on here mentioned rectal oral glucose(now that's an oxymoron) anyway, I'm not above trying it, if that is all I can do. It makes perfectly good sense, medications cross the rectal membranes almost as fast as IV meds. No chance of aspiration then. Of course they may wake up a "sore azz."




According to NHTSA/DOT Basic EMT curriculum the Basic EMT can administer oral glucose, if one monitors the airway for aspiration. ..." it is recommended to place a small amount on a tongue blade"... Not to be picky, but they have to be "total alert" to person, place, time and event?.. Then why the need to even treat them? They could eat a high carbohydrate and the need to ever give oral glucose would never be needed, unless one just didn't have food. 

I'll give glucose gel rectal if that means to keep my patient from dying or preventing no cerebral damage, (just like Diastat rectal for seizures)... (also remember glucose is needed to transport oxygen through the cerebral cell wall) but; IV D50W is too toxic for such, (remember what it does to skin tissue?, although I have seen safe to administer to drink).

I do understand your perception and respect it, but to place a small amount on the mucosa and keep suction on hand and placing the patient in a lateral recumbent position, so aspiration would be near impossible, is safe. Yes, extremely cautious....but can be considered safe. I too do not like patients that aspirate, but as well do not like hypoglycemic patients with cerebral hypoxia......

R/r 911


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## Stevo (Dec 2, 2006)

> ..." it is recommended to place a small amount on a tongue blade"...



_poppycock, guffaw & boulderdash!_

get a good dab of OG on your finger, then swipe it bettween the patients cheek and gum.  spreading it out well will  prevent aspiration, and speed absorbtion

~S~


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## Fedmedic (Dec 2, 2006)

I understand what you're saying and I also respect your take on it and in theory it makes sense. But to me oral glucose is given when you have a patient who is hypoglycemic, but awake and alert, who needs glucose replacement. Oral glucose has 5 grams glucose per tube, that is quicker than fixing a high carb meal and easier. Enough to either get it up until ALS arrives or you feel comfortable leaving them to fix a meal for themselves. 

This is taken directly from our protocols:

BLS
If patient can protect airway, administer oral glucose:

1. Squeeze small portions of glucose between cheek and gum. 
DO NOT use large portions(airway hazard)

To me,"can protect airway" means awake and alert. 

I mean, I have nasotracheally intubated patients that were extemely lethargic(borderline unresponsive)  just to protect their airway. 

I wouldn't think oral glucose would be necrotic to rectal membranes. I'm not talking about administering D50 via rectum.

 And yeah, I have had patients standing on the side of the road after being involved in minor MVA's that were hypoglycemic, drinking D50 also. Because no other source of glucose was available and they didn't need an IV or transporting. Amazing at the things you will do to get a refusal...

I guess just different ways of thinking, experience and education. But then that is what makes EMS what it is. The diversity of the treatment options, as long as the outcome is favorable for the patient...everything is OK.


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## Ridryder911 (Dec 3, 2006)

Stevo said:


> _poppycock, guffaw & boulderdash!_
> 
> get a good dab of OG on your finger, then swipe it bettween the patients cheek and gum.  spreading it out well will  prevent aspiration, and speed absorbtion
> 
> ~S~



I agree, I never have used the tongue blade method & actually prefer to "rub" into the mucosa slightly, and prefer s.l... but, I believe they are trying to keep people maintaining all 5 digits.... for legal purposes.

R/r 911


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## Stevo (Dec 3, 2006)

sometimes we have to cross that protocall line to help people *Ryder*, i came into this trade very protocall oriented, yet as a mentor once said _'what works works'_ echoed by *FedMedic* here...



> The diversity of the treatment options, as long as the outcome is favorable for the patient...everything is OK.



~S~


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## jeepmedic (Dec 4, 2006)

Guardian said:


> Note to everyone...I'm trying to be nice and post within the rules, but when people post like this, it's hard.
> 
> 
> First you say anyone who cannot sign a refusal cannot protect his/her airway enough for OG...that is just wrong and I feel sad there are people like this in ems.  Then you say treat your pt, not the numbers...I agree but doesn't this contradict what you just wrote?  I need a strong drink...




#1 I don't care about being Nice. 


Now I wrote and still write that if a Pt is Hypoglycemic and not A&O x4 They will get D-50 instead of oral glucose. If a Hypoglycemic pt. has a altered LOC then They can not protect there airway and there is no one here that will change my mind. I have worked on the streets and inside of a prison with too many diabetics and treated them. I will not give Oral Glucose to a Pt. with an altered mental status. If you do, you are wrong and have had too many drinks.

Now if you feel sad there are people like me in EMS, you need to get another Hobby. And another drink. I have been trained by the best and I will stand by what I have been taught. I do what I feel is in the best intest of my Pt.


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## trauma1534 (Dec 4, 2006)

Guardian said:


> Note to everyone...I'm trying to be nice and post within the rules, but when people post like this, it's hard.
> 
> 
> First you say anyone who cannot sign a refusal cannot protect his/her airway enough for OG...that is just wrong and I feel sad there are people like this in ems.  Then you say treat your pt, not the numbers...I agree but doesn't this contradict what you just wrote?  I need a strong drink...



Guardian, again, I respectfully ask you... how long have you been in EMS and what level of training are you?  There is a reason I ask.


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## Guardian (Dec 4, 2006)

trauma1534 said:


> Guardian, again, I respectfully ask you... how long have you been in EMS and what level of training are you?  There is a reason I ask.



3 months, I'm a certified first responder.  Now, why do you care what level of training I have and how long I have been in ems.  Do you judge people based on their certification level?  I judge people based on their ideas, not what a piece of paper says.


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## trauma1534 (Dec 4, 2006)

Guardian said:


> 3 months, I'm a certified first responder.  Now, why do you care what level of training I have and how long I have been in ems.  Do you judge people based on their certification level?  I judge people based on their ideas, not what a piece of paper says.



Well... it is just interesting to me that you are a first responder, a level in which I happen to know alot about seeing as how I am one of the instructors for a class going on right now.  I think it is great that you are interested in EMS to the point that you are taking part in discussions of all training levels.  I hope that you continue with your training and can run with the best of us.  

Now, with that said, I find it unfair that we ridicule you for your positon on your ideas of treatment.  First responder level is a very entry level certification.  It is a 40 hour class.  You only have one practicle at state boards here.  

First Responders are only taught to recognize red flags so that they can know what to tell the incomming unit.  They are not certified to transport or ride in the back with a patient even on a granny tote.  They are taught very basic things such as there is only one dosage for oxygen, that is 15 lpm, NRB.  They are not even certified to give instant glucose, or in most areas around here, even touch a glucose monitor.  They are not required to back board a patient, as it is an OMD option here.  They don't have to back board, because they can't transport.  The curriculim is very vague, and in my opinion it is hard to teach, as there is so much vital core information that we must leave out at that level.  

First responders are great, and I feel we really need them to help us load a patient, they are great for going streight to the scene and letting us know what we are comming into.  They offer a great extra set of hands and back strength for lifting and moving patients.  

This is a great place for you to learn your place in EMS.  You see everything posted here.  As I tell all the new rookie's who come into my agency and ride with me, this is the time to learn, listen, and watch.  Not a good time to argue treatment higher certified providers give.  You can't argue something if you don't know enough about it to support that arguement.  As far as you giving D-50, don't worry about the drugs that you can't give right now.  You have only been in the field for 3 months.  Learn to perfect your skills at your level.  It is good that you are interested and are hungry to learn all you can, but pretending to know when you don't, will get you in alot of trouble.  If you don't know something, say you don't know.  That is the very best way to learn.  When you are afraid to admit when you don't understand something, that makes you very very very dangerous!!!  That goes for and provider at any level.  

As far as pay for EMS providers, no, it is not the highest paying job in the field, but I've been doing this for 12 years now.  I do not qualify for food stamps, I make too much!  I have not gone hungry, my kids still have clothes, my electricity is still on, and I have a roof over my head.  Most of all, I find this career a nice rewarding field that I happen to enjoy.  It has landed me a very good job.  As a career provider, I started out at a very basic, non-emergency EMS transport agancy.  We did granny totes, wheelchair vans, and innerfacility ALS and BLS transports.  Once in a blue moon, we would have our code, or we would respond for rescue when they were tied up, but that is where I started my career at.  I went from there to a very busy city agancy.  We ran non-emergency transports with 80% 911 calls, along with innerfacilty transports.  We worked 24 hour shifts and my truck alone would average between 15 and 20 calls per shift, if we didn't get sent out of town on a trip.  I went from there to a laid back county agancy where I can get the ashes out of my pants leg where I was suffering from burn-out syndrome, and enjoy my job for what it is.  I also, thanks to my years of experience in EMS and as an ALS provider, landed a job at one of Virginia's finest level one trauma centers this past year.  So now I work for that agancy in the county part time, just because I like it and enjoy it, and it keeps my truck skills up, and I work full time at the trauma center.  The pay is not that bad.  It is very good actually.  I don't starve!

         So, Guardian, my advise to you my friend is stick with it if you are likeing it.  IT can take you as far as you will allow it to.  Don't get side tracked by wanting to pose as something you are not.  Don't ever try to think you know all.  I am seeing a paramedic right now who has that attitide that no one is going to be as good as him, and he is under investigation as we speak for a judgement call he made on something, trying to look big and act like he knew it all.  So, just be carefull how you portray yourself, and stay humble.  Learn all can can from good providers and be the best you can be.  Don't try to be something you are not.  Good luck with your EMS adventure!  If we can ever help you with anything, since you are still new to EMS, feel free at anytime to ask.  I am all about helping new providers!


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## Guardian (Dec 4, 2006)

lol, I love this forum.


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## Guardian (Dec 4, 2006)

Thomas Jefferson, third President of the United States and Governor of Virginia, preferred to be called Mr. Jefferson.  He did not like being called President Jefferson or Governor Jefferson.  Later, he founded the University of Virginia and all of the Professors at that University were to be addressed as Mr or Ms, never by a title such as Dr, Gen, etc.  He believed ideas should be judged equally and that a person’s rank or title should not be considered when forming an opinion about their ideas.  I think you could learn a thing or two from him.

What makes this so funny is the fact that I was accused of being anti-emt when in fact it is now clear who rushes to judge people based on a silly little piece of paper.


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## trauma1534 (Dec 4, 2006)

Guardian said:


> Thomas Jefferson, third President of the United States and Governor of Virginia, preferred to be called Mr. Jefferson.  He did not like being called President Jefferson or Governor Jefferson.  Later, he founded the University of Virginia and all of the Professors at that University were to be addressed as Mr or Ms, never by a title such as Dr, Gen, etc.  He believed ideas should be judged equally and that a person’s rank or title should not be considered when forming an opinion about their ideas.  I think you could learn a thing or two from him.
> 
> What makes this so funny is the fact that I was accused of being anti-emt when in fact it is now clear who rushes to judge people based on a silly little piece of paper.



Well, Guardian, no one is judging you.  As I said in my post, I am very happy that you are with us in the forum.  I am glad that you are interested enough in this field to hang out on here.  But I will say this.  I am not judging you... but I think 3 mo. experience, and a FR certification does not warrent your comments on some of these posts.  You are trying to start posts on D50 and tell why we shouldn't use it, when you are not even certified to give it.  Have not even been trained to start an IV.  I am not against first responders or EMT's at any level.  I am one of the instructors for a first responder class right now.  I just know what you are taught as a first responder, and I understand that you are not in a position by education or experience to argue an EMT-B, or an ALS provider.  You certainly are not in a position to have an educated opinion either way on drugs, intubations, even ALS laws and protocols.  You can't even form an educated opinion on riding in a truck at what levels, and what you would do in the back of a truck on calls. You are not certified to ride in the back of the truck with a patient alone.  If you do anything in the back of the truck other than observe, it is at the provider's descresion.  So, just be careful when you try to attack other providers who have been in this business probably longer than you've been out of grade school.  When you become certified to carry my bag, then we can argue anything, any subject.  Until then, you should consider setting back, and trying to learn from the discussions, and the calls that you get to assist on.


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## Guardian (Dec 4, 2006)

This is a forum to discuss issues.  John Kerry doesn’t have to be a military General to argue military tactics with General Abizaid.  I don’t have to be a paramedic to discuss ems issues with you.


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## jeepmedic (Dec 4, 2006)

Guardian said:


> This is a forum to discuss issues.  John Kerry doesn’t have to be a military General to argue military tactics with General Abizaid.  I don’t have to be a paramedic to discuss ems issues with you.



John Kerry is a :censored: and a fake.


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## Guardian (Dec 4, 2006)

jeepmedic said:


> John Kerry is a :censored: and a fake.



That's another issue all together and I'm not going there.


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## jeepmedic (Dec 4, 2006)

Guardian said:


> That's another issue all together and I'm not going there.



Well you brought him up.  :wacko:


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## Ridryder911 (Dec 4, 2006)

Wow !..and you guy's thought I was controversial.... .now, you know how I feel about the rest of the remainder of EMS personal...LOL...


R/r 911


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## trauma1534 (Dec 5, 2006)

Ridryder911 said:


> Wow !..and you guy's thought I was controversial.... .now, you know how I feel about the rest of the remainder of EMS personal...LOL...
> 
> 
> R/r 911



Ridryder, I've come to the conclusion that we will have to agree to disagree sometimes with you bud!  Atleast you can make a good arguement!  You are not that bad.  WHEW!  That took alot comming from me, I just hope you know!  LOL


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## jeepmedic (Dec 5, 2006)

Ridryder911 said:


> Wow !..and you guy's thought I was controversial.... .now, you know how I feel about the rest of the remainder of EMS personal...LOL...
> 
> 
> R/r 911



Maybe you should run for president?


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## Peanut (Dec 24, 2006)

*Good day gentlemen.....*



FFEMT1764 said:


> That is the truth...and we have a few here who are unfortunately not very competent. Example, someone gave Ativan IM with a BLUNT cannula. This was done without consulting med control, and the only Ativan we have on orders is IV for adult SZ...and this person is bragging about giving it IM with the blunt cannula. As in a plastic blunt cannula at that!!!!<_<




Dear Mr Lundis,

I am writing to let you know that you have posted inaccurate information in the afore described events. You are guilty of slander and liable as well as smearing my charactor in a public forum. I will give you until  Jan. 5th to post a public appology AND a written apology to me with a copy to our Director. Please be sure to state that you did not have first hand knowledge of the events and it was your intention to ridicule me and alienate me within the service in which we work.  If you do not comply you can speak with my lawyer and we will start proceedings right away.


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## Ridryder911 (Dec 24, 2006)

Actually to dispel slander, one has to prove that your repetition has been professionally slandered by means of either change in income status, professional status (such as discharge from employer) patients or other peers have change in professional status, and this was can be * directly* proven by their statement alone. 

If the person wrongfully posted should then definitely clarify their statement if it was wrong. The person did not state name or even service(s) name or location. 

Now, I am wondering if you did perform such the procedure(s) as was discussed, do you really want this to brought up in more detail. If the so-called events really did occur as described, potential liability, potential gross negligence could have occurred. I myself, would not want to open those can of worms. Definitely, this could be more drastic than one's reputation. Then one would not have to worry about such afterwards. 

Again, the only the truth should be discussed or at least fictional scenario. 

R/r 911


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## Peanut (Dec 24, 2006)

Ridryder911 said:


> Actually to dispel slander, one has to prove that your repetition has been professionally slandered by means of either change in income status, professional status (such as discharge from employer) patients or other peers have change in professional status, and this was can be * directly* proven by their statement alone.
> 
> If the person wrongfully posted should then definitely clarify their statement if it was wrong. The person did not state name or even service(s) name or location.
> 
> ...



I cannot discuss anything other that what I have written my lawyer will take care of what needs to be taken care of. My lawyer must think there is enough here to do something with or would not have taken the case.  I have stated all Mr Lundis needs to do.


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## jeepmedic (Dec 24, 2006)

How did he slander you? No one here knows you or him for that matter. I would have never given it a second thought if you had not brought it up. Can I say it PLEASE.


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## Guardian (Dec 25, 2006)

Things I Like And Hate

I like ems and emtlife.com

I hate lawyers and I hate peanuts and i hate guys with peanut sized brains and I hate guys with peanut sized gonads


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## jeepmedic (Dec 25, 2006)

Guardian said:


> Things I Like And Hate
> 
> I like ems and emtlife.com
> 
> I hate lawyers and I hate peanuts and i hate guys with peanut sized brains and I hate guys with peanut sized gonads



I still don't have a clue who any of you are. So how is it slander?


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## FFEMT1764 (Dec 25, 2006)

Peanut said:


> I am writing to let you know that you have posted inaccurate information in the afore described events. You are guilty of slander and liable as well as smearing my charactor in a public forum. I will give you until Jan. 5th to post a public appology AND a written apology to me with a copy to our Director. Please be sure to state that you did not have first hand knowledge of the events and it was your intention to ridicule me and alienate me within the service in which we work. If you do not comply you can speak with my lawyer and we will start proceedings right away.


 

I will state that some of the information given to me was given to me by someone else, who was closely involved in said incident. I however never named this individual, or stated where they work. I am not interested in naming names or throwing mud, just in making sure that people can learn from other's mistakes.  Since it appears I have offended this individual I will apologize for offending you, and not discuss this incident any further. As to the other requests you have made, we can discuss those personally and privately, as it was never my intention to bring your name into this in the first place.  

Hopefully this will resolve this issue and I certainly have learned that from now on I will change the entire situation before I even remotely consider discussing it with the group.  It's a shame that this has come to this, however I am in no mood to deal with the whole lawyer thing, as the only lawyer I like to speak with is my cousin who happens to be an assistant US attorney.  

Furthermore, I don't see how I slandered you as I never named you or the service in this incident.


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## Jon (Dec 25, 2006)

Ridryder911 said:


> Actually to dispel slander, one has to prove that your repetition has been professionally slandered by means of either change in income status, professional status (such as discharge from employer) patients or other peers have change in professional status, and this was can be * directly* proven by their statement alone.
> 
> If the person wrongfully posted should then definitely clarify their statement if it was wrong. The person did not state name or even service(s) name or location.
> 
> ...


Rid... You said it.

I'll expand a little further - As it was prestented, it was an anoymous tale of unknown truth. Further, the incident was used as an example to illistrate the incompitance of a medical provider. No names were used. FFEMT1764 dosen't advertise which EMS orginization(s) he is associated with. Further... he didn't say WHEN this had happened or name any involved party.

How do you even know he was talking about you, Peanut??? Perhaps you are a little paranoid?

Now that you've brought it up, I'd ALMOST be intrested in knowing "what really happened."

I say ALMOST, because that would turn into an intresting discussion, and someone would start personal attacks, and then the thread would be locked.

Whatever.

Jon


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## premedtim (Dec 26, 2006)

Peanut said:


> I cannot discuss anything other that what I have written my lawyer will take care of what needs to be taken care of. My lawyer must think there is enough here to do something with or would not have taken the case.  I have stated all Mr Lundis needs to do.



I think the amount of frivolous lawsuits that California is famous for is proof that if a lawyer takes a case, it doesn't automatically mean he (and the client) isn't full of :censored::censored::censored::censored:.


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## akflightmedic (Dec 26, 2006)

Very interesting read.

I wish I was in Mr.Lundis shoes cause I would say bring it on and go :censored::censored::censored::censored: yourself. 

First, this is total BS and quite the frivilous lawsuit. He never named names, service worked for or even a remote goegraphical location. Even after all he said, I still have no idea of who, what, when or where as none of this was provided or hinted at. You are way off base as you just published his name on a public forum. You revealed more information to us about him than he did about you. What a freaking moron. Obviously by the way you are reacting, it seems to me like there is way more to this story than we will ever know.

For the record, if you have money and look enough, any lawyer will take a case. And yes, some will do it with no fee up front but when you lose, look out, time to pay the piper.

However, and unfortunately, your case will probably play out like this: your lawyer and you sue the service. They get a lawyer and realize it will be cheaper and faster to give the little whiney *** employee (you in this case), a settlement and close the case instead of battling it out in court which can take months to years depending on the backlog. The settlement is usually chump change, 10K or less, you feel vindicated and go on your way to screw someone else over in the future and the service takes a hit and cuts back on salaries or doesnt make an equipment purchase or provide some educational opportunity quarter. Unless of course its a larger service or goverment organization.

Either way, you are a douche bag, especially to be here battling it out on a website. What a farking joke!


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## Ridryder911 (Dec 26, 2006)

or.... the attorney will take your money and then tell you "there really is no sufficient grounds to really pursue this matter." We will go to court if you want, but I want an up front retainer fee, if we pursue this course. 

I agree, now it since they have named the other person they in fact might have grounds to sue or counter sue. 

R/r 911


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## toetag (Dec 26, 2006)

*Enough already.*

I have been viewing this forum from afar for quite some time and never felt compelled to join or write. Now I have. This forum has interesting useful information and some BS on it. This is thread BS but it also contains some very important points:

FFEMT1764-
Why did you feel compelled to pass on a third or fourth or hand information that could be so easily traced to the paramedic you were writing about, damaging his reputation? You seem to have another agenda here and it is not to further the profession or help your fellow paramedics; more importantly the people you are supposed to serve. You failed to do the one thing each and every one of us must do in our PROFESSION every time, get the facts straight. Just think about it for a moment, imagine the force and skill/luck it would require to force in a PLASTIC blunt, let alone the resulting trauma, the story isn’t even plausible. You are obviously trying to make yourself look better at the expense of others … it is having the opposite effect. I’m sure that others that you work with have similar (probably worse) stories about you. Would you like to have them put this on a public forum where paramedics around the US and the world can see it? You not only owe the person you were talking about an apology, you also owe readers of this forum and the profession an apology for your unprofessional conduct.

Peanut- 
While I understand your frustration on having this on this forum, I believe that threatening litigation does not serve your cause well at all. Each and every one of us has to worry about litigation from outside each time we respond to a call, we do not need it coming from within. This also is not very professional. I’m sure that you and your coworkers know what kind of a paramedic you are, responding to this person this way isn’t productive. You two obviously work with each other so it would be best to resolve it in person. Get over it, learn from it and get on with it, we need all of good paramedics we can get, I sincerely hope you will be one of them.

All-
Each and every one of us has had to work hard to get where we are and we must stick together, there are too many threats from the outside without much reward. We all have made mistakes, some humorous and uneventful, some fatal.  In my military career and in my years as a paramedic here in Utah, I have never seen a one TRUE paramedic put down or make fun of another’s mistake. We find the insight and humor of our own mistakes, and each of us answers to the higher ups, it is not for a forum like this. I’m glad that FFEMT1764 isn’t on my team, each and every one of them are professionals who I’m proud to work with.




FFEMT1764 said:


> I will state that some of the information given to me was given to me by someone else, who was closely involved in said incident. I however never named this individual, or stated where they work. I am not interested in naming names or throwing mud, just in making sure that people can learn from other's mistakes.  Since it appears I have offended this individual I will apologize for offending you, and not discuss this incident any further. As to the other requests you have made, we can discuss those personally and privately, as it was never my intention to bring your name into this in the first place.
> 
> Hopefully this will resolve this issue and I certainly have learned that from now on I will change the entire situation before I even remotely consider discussing it with the group.  It's a shame that this has come to this, however I am in no mood to deal with the whole lawyer thing, as the only lawyer I like to speak with is my cousin who happens to be an assistant US attorney.
> 
> Furthermore, I don't see how I slandered you as I never named you or the service in this incident.


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## Guardian (Dec 26, 2006)

akflightmedic said:


> Very interesting read.
> 
> I wish I was in Mr.Lundis shoes cause I would say bring it on and go :censored::censored::censored::censored: yourself.
> 
> ...




couldn't agree more


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## fyrdog (Dec 26, 2006)

This topic really turned interesting! But I think it's time for Chimpie to lock it down. While 1st responders, EMTs, paramedics, nurses and doctors will always have clashes about proper treatment, some idle threat from some unknown moroon can really ruin a site. Perhaps the individual should be lock out of the entire site too as their particpation in this site is purely self motivated, harassing , and counter productive to a good (heated at times) conversation. 

 2 posts and already pain - Bye Peanut and don't rush back.  :censored: :wacko:


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## trauma1534 (Dec 27, 2006)

*What Paramedics do across the globe*

..........


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## ffemt8978 (Dec 27, 2006)

Okay, that's enough of this one.

This is a friendly reminder to all that we do not tolerate personal attacks here, so keep it respectful.  That also goes for threatening our members with lawsuits (regardless of the reason why).

Another reminder to everyone is that we don't reveal the names of our members unless they have revealed it first.  If you can't maintain that minimum level of respect for our members here, then we don't want you polluting our forum.


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