# Ambulance Strike



## Melclin (Jun 21, 2009)

http://www.theage.com.au/national/paramedics-to-go-ahead-with-industrial-action-20090616-cgcl.html

Ambulance and MICA paramedics in Victoria take industrial action after union negotiations with Ambulance Victoria management break down. 

This comes as part of a general move to improve conditions including comparatively low pay and poor rostering.


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## High Speed Chaser (Jun 21, 2009)

I assume this is the type of strike where they still respond to code 1.

Fair enough, most paramedics are overworked and under paid. One of my teachers tells me he has nothing but respect for them due to the conditions and pay they get especially in Victoria.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe its 2 days on, 2 nights on 4 days off.


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## 46Young (Jun 21, 2009)

When I worked in Charleston SC, we had a 24/48 schedule. Due to staffing issues, we would frequently be held over for an additional 12-24, effectively working a 36/36, or 48/24. We were also subject to recall from home whenever we weren't capped out from a 48 hour shift. When they called me, I would tell them that I had several alcoholic beverages just before they called me. Exactly what type of schedule is EMS currently working out your way? the 10/14 setup from the article wasn't painting a clear picture.


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## Melclin (Jun 21, 2009)

As I understand it, at this stage they are still responding to all call, but I may be wrong. At the moment there are just a number of measures in place to basically make life harder for AV. Research information is not being recorded, I think there's something to do with PCRs, they're taking 10 hour breaks in between shifts despite only being allowed 8, and they're not taking students or any observers. As time goes on the measures will get progressively worse. 

MORE INFO:  http://responsetime.org.au/


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## Melclin (Jun 21, 2009)

46Young said:


> When I worked in Charleston SC, we had a 24/48 schedule. Due to staffing issues, we would frequently be held over for an additional 12-24, effectively working a 36/36, or 48/24. We were also subject to recall from home whenever we weren't capped out from a 48 hour shift. When they called me, I would tell them that I had several alcoholic beverages just before they called me. Exactly what type of schedule is EMS currently working out your way? the 10/14 setup from the article wasn't painting a clear picture.



Man that sucks. How could you be expected to drive safely, let alone treat patients after a shift that long?

The basic roster works on an 8 day cycle, two 10 hour days shifts, two 14 hour night shifts, then four days off (but there's heaps of different rosters + overtime). But I think the problem is with people having to work considerably more than that. I can't really say for sure seeing as though I'm just a student, but I'm sure MelbMICA will probably have something to say on the issue, he'd be the best person to comment, seeing as though he's probably involved in the action.


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## High Speed Chaser (Jun 21, 2009)

They should sit some ambulances outside parliament and Ambulance Victoria HQ and blast the sirens for a while. Also they should only respond to code 1 (L&S) making sure that ambulances not on code 1 calls stay outside blasting there sirens. That will show them.


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## 46Young (Jun 21, 2009)

Melclin said:


> Man that sucks. How could you be expected to drive safely, let alone treat patients after a shift that long?
> 
> The basic roster works on an 8 day cycle, two 10 hour days shifts, two 14 hour night shifts, then four days off (but there's heaps of different rosters + overtime). But I think the problem is with people having to work considerably more than that. I can't really say for sure seeing as though I'm just a student, but I'm sure MelbMICA will probably have something to say on the issue, he'd be the best person to comment, seeing as though he's probably involved in the action.



We can't. That's one of the reasons I left there. It's the Deep South, no unions, and the "If you don't like it then leave, you're not going to change anything" mentality. Where I work currently as a Firemedic, we work 24's as XOXOXOOOO. We can be held, or work OT up to 36 hours, and are required at least 12 hours in between shifts. In NYC, FDNY EMS has 8 hour shifts, are  capped at 16 hours by law, with at least 8 hours in between shifts. Good for them, going on strike for improved salary, benefits, working conditions and such. Strength in Solidarity!


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## Flipper (Jun 23, 2009)

*Response Time!*

Ambos of the world unite!

     Your (very) poor little cousins down (very) south need your support!!!!!!!

     How can one make life and death decisions based upon the sort of information patients give - let's face it - most of them elaborate -  if they don't have their wits about them?

     How can one make such decisions given an 8 hour break - remembering you can be "asked" to travel up to an hour ( or more ) to do so - THAT EQUATES TO 6 HOURS SLEEP IF YOU GO DOWN THE MINUTE YOU GET HOME AND WAKE UP EXACTLY WHEN YOU HAVE TO LEAVE FOR THE NEXT SHIFT - no showers, no life for you!!!!!. 

     Don't know about you, but if someone comes to my house, IF I need an ambulance - I'll be checking which shift they're on, and if they haven't had a break - my car to the hospital is probably better (But I'll take from their ambulance what I need.)  

     So Sad to see a world leading ambulance service fall to a lack of government funding and support.  

And the 10 hour break is only the beginning - It does get worse!!!!!!!


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## Melclin (Jun 23, 2009)

Welcome to the forum flipper. Nice to have another Melbournian. Good luck with your action.


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## Flipper (Jun 23, 2009)

*Hey Mr Melclin*

THANKS for the support.  We need all the support we can get, and it's nice a student is with us.   Watch what you say though - don't want the powers that be cottoning on and guessing you said something already - they're going after all of us for that so  don't encourage that sort of behaviour.


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## High Speed Chaser (Jun 23, 2009)

Just thought I would post a couple of videos. 

[youtube]vOHI6I2W-0k[/youtube] [youtube]dGr9u_Umhic[/youtube]
I have only watched the start of the bottom one.


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## Melclin (Jun 26, 2009)

Flipper said:


> THANKS for the support.  We need all the support we can get, and it's nice a student is with us.   Watch what you say though - don't want the powers that be cottoning on and guessing you said something already - they're going after all of us for that so  don't encourage that sort of behaviour.



No worries mate, I'm ganna have to put up with their BS soon enough so the more I can help you blokes and gals out the better  I appreciate your concern but they can get stuffed if they wanna go after people for posting publicly available news stories elsewhere on the internet. 


UPDATES PEOPLE:  "Ambo battle heats up", Billing data is no longer being recorded so pt.s are essentially getting the service for free. 

http://responsetime.org.au/content/ambo-battle-heats


*Go to responsetime.org.au to register your support for us down under.*


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## downunderwunda (Jun 26, 2009)

Flipper said:


> THANKS for the support.  We need all the support we can get, and it's nice a student is with us.   Watch what you say though - don't want the powers that be cottoning on and guessing you said something already - they're going after all of us for that so  don't encourage that sort of behaviour.



I tisnt only you guys that are pushing it up hill. NSW were offerred 2.5% with no trade offs, or higher with trade offs (3.9%). One trade off relates to transfer & the costs associated with them, it was estimated with the 1.4% difference it would take each officer 30 years to make up the difference of 1 move.


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## mycrofft (Jun 27, 2009)

*Informational Picketing versus the real deal (a'la Teamsters)*

The fight is won first in public opinion via the news, then through singling out the worst offenders and outing their practices. Everyone has to start documenting who said what when and where and who else heard or saw it. Get photocopies of duty rosters.

If the job action becomes goon squad stuff like the old Teamsters strikes here, you lose. Always hold the high ground.


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## High Speed Chaser (Jul 18, 2009)

Just an update on this. 
It has been decided that Ambulance Victoria staff will strike but will not directly put the general public's health at risk. 

Some things include 


			
				source said:
			
		

> From 7am today [Friday the 17/07-2009] paramedics will resume 13 different types of industrial action.
> 
> 
> They will defy Ambulance Victoria’s eight hour break policy and instead enforce 10-hour rest breaks between shifts to combat fatigue.
> ...




*Source*


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## WuLabsWuTecH (Jul 18, 2009)

Wow, this still hasn't been resolved?


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## rescue99 (Jul 18, 2009)

Historically, Nursing, PD and PD all had to organize to get anywhere. It isn't all about education in the end.


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## loadngo (Jul 22, 2009)

rescue99 said:


> Historically, Nursing, PD and PD all had to organize to get anywhere. It isn't all about education in the end.



You're correct. It is way past time for EMS to be unionized.


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## Kookaburra (Jul 28, 2009)

Meclin, I would like to post about this in another forum... would you be able to summarize what the shifts are like in layperson speak? I want to make sure I get all the info correctly, and I'm not familiar enough with the shorthand you're using to feel confident translating it into non-EMS-speak.


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## Melclin (Aug 6, 2009)

Kookaburra said:


> Meclin, I would like to post about this in another forum... would you be able to summarize what the shifts are like in layperson speak? I want to make sure I get all the info correctly, and I'm not familiar enough with the shorthand you're using to feel confident translating it into non-EMS-speak.



Sorry for the late reply. I could try, but I'd fail miserably. Just a student. I don't really know what the shifts are like for the guys and gals out on the road. If you really wanna know, PM MelbourneMICA. He's in the thick of it. Although from his lack of commenting in this thread, he might be abstaining from any public debate for any number of valid reasons.

The response time website that I posted earlier will probably tell you all you need to know. It's aimed at the general public.


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## Melclin (Aug 6, 2009)

*Support your mates in Oz*

Log onto the link bellow, all you have to do is click a button to help out. They need 480 more supportive responses to reach their target for presentation to the health minister and Ambulance Victoria. 

*Help your Aussie mates out..if you do we'll stop trying to get you to eat Vegemite...we promise.
*
http://responsetime.org.au/content/stand-our-ambos


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## downunderwunda (Aug 8, 2009)

Melclin, 

we now have a fight on another front. Not only have we been dogged with a minimal pay rise, but now the NSWFB want to increase their first response role to justify their pay rise.

The new FBEU stated goals also see them want to encompass the Rural Fire Service & force FBEU membership onto them.

Please let your guys know so they can stand with us.


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## High Speed Chaser (Aug 9, 2009)

Kookaburra said:


> Meclin, I would like to post about this in another forum... would you be able to summarize what the shifts are like in layperson speak? I want to make sure I get all the info correctly, and I'm not familiar enough with the shorthand you're using to feel confident translating it into non-EMS-speak.



I'm pretty sure its and I think this is what you want to know,
Day 1: 10 hour day shift 
Day 2: 10 hour day shift
Day 3: 14 hour night shift
Day 4: 14 hour night shift
Day 5-8: Rest

but the thing is they have to often work over time and then they are very tired for the next shift. Especially between the Day 3-4 shift.


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## Melclin (Aug 9, 2009)

And there are a lot of different shift structures as well. Peak period shifts, and so on, 12 hour rotations versus the 10/14 etc. I'm not sure that it's _just_ the basic shift structure that is responsible for all the problems.


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## High Speed Chaser (Aug 12, 2009)

They won

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/849007/vic-paramedics-strike-11th-hour-deal



Melclin said:


> And there are a lot of different shift structures as well. Peak period shifts, and so on, 12 hour rotations versus the 10/14 etc. I'm not sure that it's just the basic shift structure that is responsible for all the problems.



My understanding was that between the 2 night shifts paramedics would work over time and not have time for a proper break


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## Melclin (Aug 16, 2009)

High Speed Chaser said:


> They won
> 
> 
> 
> My understanding was that between the 2 night shifts paramedics would work over time and not have time for a proper break



Yeah, undoubtedly, but I don't think it was _just_ that.

Also this win might leave MICA in the lurch a bit. It doesn't do anything to fix the problems with rostering and dispatch. And the pay raise is still not commensurate with their skill level and work load, compared to the ALS level.


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## scottmcleod (Aug 18, 2009)

Melclin said:


> Log onto the link bellow, all you have to do is click a button to help out. They need 480 more supportive responses to reach their target for presentation to the health minister and Ambulance Victoria.
> 
> *Help your Aussie mates out..if you do we'll stop trying to get you to eat Vegemite...we promise.
> *
> http://responsetime.org.au/content/stand-our-ambos



EDIT: I know they got their small win last week, feel free to post these anyways, they need ~173 signatures still.

Posted this on my twitter, along with this quote,

Tweet 1: "Nearly 20 percent of Victorian ambos found that 75% made mistakes due to xtreme fatigue. Avg ~6 hours sleep nightly, often less than that."

Tweet 2: Aussie Ambos need your support! Sign their petition for fair schedule practices & safe working environment. http://bit.ly/441RuJ

Feel free to copy my tweets. No RT Needed. They're crafted to fit 140 characters.


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## Melclin (Aug 18, 2009)

Cheers mate. I'm sure everybody's support is still appreciated, despite the.. 'win'. 

The sentiment will be returned as best it can, come _your_ fight.


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## enjoynz (Aug 18, 2009)

I saw the news article the other day about the Victorian Ambo's with tape across their mouths making a united stand! 
Good on them!
It's a shame that the workers have to take a stand about down times.

In NZ, the Government were the ones leading the push to reduce the amount of hours Emergency workers, were looking at becoming a danger due to driver fatigue.
Maybe this case in Dunedin opened their eyes a bit, to the problems within the ambulance service. As Attached.......
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_national_story_skin/437447?format=html
The emergency services were only one part of this policy. There were too many cases of MVC's in NZ, due to drivers falling asleep at the wheel.

The ambulance service asked for an extension, when the policy was made by the Government... Policy As Attached.
http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/factsheets/02.html
With strong penalties if the laws are broken.
It was going to be hard to work around the volunteers as well.
The time they did at their normal paid job would be added to the time they were on duty. Many go and do an ambulance shift after a day at work.
Also the stations that paid crews work long shifts. 4 days on, 4 days off.


I hope it all pans out for you guys in Victoria, and they realise the worth of their Ambo's!

Cheers Enjoynz


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## VentMedic (Aug 18, 2009)

rescue99 said:


> Historically, Nursing, PD and PD all had to organize to get anywhere. It isn't all about education in the end.


 
A union is not going to make a doctor or other medical professions respect those without adequate education. You can wave a union card all you want but if you aren't educated enough to keep up with the challenges of medicine and patient care or the requirements of the government to provide a quality service of what good is it? 

The PDs have also realized this and some have increased their educational standards for entry level as well. 

The more educated a profession is the less likely they will need a union to do their talking. Some bargain through their professional associations which do surveys of equally educated professionals. Thus, healthcare professions that have higher than a 4 year degree (and many with a 4 year degree) are rarely represented by a union. Also, not all nurses are respresented by a union. 

Now imagine in the U.S. if a survey was done with other healthcare (or other) workers who have 120 hours of training. They might find that some in EMS are over paid. They would also have a difficult time finding other healthcare workers with that little training. If you want to compare at the professional level, that starts at the 2 year degree (required). Even the RNs are noticing that their education minimum is outdated when compared to the allied health professions.  It won't be long until they can not use education as a bases for their pay. 

On the note of this thread, it is interesting that 14 hours is considered a long day. I do remember one U.S. ambulance company that tried to organize with a union known for representing truckers. The first thing the union wanted to do was to get decent road time hours established. The EMT(P)s quickly nixed organizing since few wanted to give up 24 hour shifts (and several in a row) even if they didn't get any sleep and ran their tails off.


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## rescue99 (Aug 18, 2009)

To repeat..It isn't ALL about education in the end.


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## VentMedic (Aug 18, 2009)

rescue99 said:


> To repeat..It isn't ALL about education in the end.


To repeat...Those with a decent education rarely need a union to do their talking.


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## Melclin (Aug 18, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> A union is not going to make a doctor or other medical professions respect those without adequate education.
> 
> The more educated a profession is the less likely they will need a union to do their talking. Some bargain through their professional associations which do surveys of equally educated professionals. Thus, healthcare professions that have higher than a 4 year degree (and many with a 4 year degree) are rarely represented by a union. Also, not all nurses are respresented by a union.
> 
> ...



I'm fairly sure the respect of doctors is not a problem here. I've seen nothing but respect and I've never heard of it being a problem. In fact a few times Doctors have stood alongside paramedics in disputes with management. One example that comes to mind is the head of cardiology of a hospital publically opposing the SRU or medic fly car idea as I suppose you would call it, in one area because he respected the MICA (intensive care) ability to perform their role how they dictated, and he agreed with them that dual intensive care trucks were essential to pt care and crucial to their interaction with his department.

I don't think 14 hours alone is considered a prohibitively long shift, its more that there's not enough time in between the fourteen hours that causes difficulties and that there's some complex interaction of other rosters that builds fatigue over time. Besides, regardless of any pissing contest about who has the worst deal, there is still a problem here with fatigue that needs to be addressed. It's silly to say well in America in some place they do X hours so it must be alright. 

I agree with for the most part about educated people not needing a union to fight their battles. However, I do think paramedics are in a somewhat unique position in that while their job requires a great deal of education, organisationally there are a lot of similarities to more uneducated roles, like the police. Similar to the idea of an army officer, they have 4-5 years of formal education but almost no ability to dictate working conditions or pay.


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## VentMedic (Aug 18, 2009)

Melclin said:


> I'm fairly sure the respect of doctors is not a problem here.


 
Did you not notice I took great care in putting "U.S." to distinguish the two countries?


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