# Firefighter who flunked physical injured 10 days into job



## MMiz (Nov 22, 2015)

*Firefighter who flunked physical injured 10 days into job*

A firefighter who was allowed to graduate the Fire Academy despite failing physical tests has already gone out on medical leave — just 10 days into the job, The Post has learned.

*Read more!
*


----------



## SandpitMedic (Nov 23, 2015)

Lol... Another unfit diversity hire... Don't let that snowflake flunk... 

You'd think this would be a lesson learned that reality is not as conforming to diversity as human emotion is. Sadly, it will be swept under the rug and forgotten, for it does not fit the narrative.


----------



## triemal04 (Nov 23, 2015)

Hmmm, let's see...someone who never should have been hired in the first place...took *3 tries* to make it through the fire academy and was allowed to return after the first 2 failures...never successfully completed all the *lowered* physical requirements and now _Since she was injured on duty, she is eligible for a disability pension that would pay three-quarters of her annual salary, tax-free, if deemed unfit to return.  _I wonder...how could this situation have been avoided?

Maybe all the SJW's out there who are screaming and crying about diversity in the workplace should start slow, with non-essential jobs before moving onto more important, essential things.

I say the NFL is dominated by black and white men and needs to be diversified with women, Asian's and  Hispanic's.  Much better place to start than police, fire, EMS, the military, medical jobs, teachers...you know...all those "important" ones...  And since physical and mental ability is just another lie that has been sowed by the oppressive, privileged white men to keep the masses down, why shouldn't things start there?  Women, Asian's and Hispanic's would do great playing pro football.

Who's with me?


----------



## escapedcaliFF (Nov 23, 2015)

Yep politcial correct run rampit. Watch shell collect disability for the rest of her life cause she was hurt on the job. If they had any common sense if she dose come back after healing being shes a probie fire her.


----------



## gotbeerz001 (Nov 23, 2015)

What's a rampit?


----------



## escapedcaliFF (Nov 23, 2015)

gotshirtz001 said:


> What's a rampit?


got it.


----------



## gotbeerz001 (Nov 24, 2015)

escapedcaliFF said:


> got it.


I have more.


----------



## OnceAnEMT (Nov 24, 2015)

A couple scary quotes in that article. First off, passed over in 1999 and 2000? First off I'm just impressed those records were maintained with their massive volumes, but secondly that is quite some time ago. Are other departments doing this retroactive Affirmative Action stuff? I know plenty of departments who are presently employing under-the-table quotas, but I haven't heard of anyone giving preference for minorities denied years prior, let alone 15 years. AND she's 40. Not to knock down 40 year olds, but does the department not have a cadet age restriction?


----------



## triemal04 (Nov 24, 2015)

Grimes said:


> A couple scary quotes in that article. First off, passed over in 1999 and 2000? First off I'm just impressed those records were maintained with their massive volumes, but secondly that is quite some time ago. Are other departments doing this retroactive Affirmative Action stuff? I know plenty of departments who are presently employing under-the-table quotas, but I haven't heard of anyone giving preference for minorities denied years prior, let alone 15 years. AND she's 40. Not to knock down 40 year olds, but does the department not have a cadet age restriction?


Yes, Chicago FD also had to do the same thing a couple years ago.  I don't know if there have been any others but I wouldn't be shocked, or surprised if that doesn't happen more often now (when old hiring lists are available anyway).

Reality means nothing when "equality" is the concern.


----------



## johnrsemt (Nov 24, 2015)

It is going to get worse;  more and more people that are not qualified to be FF (or paramedics) are going to get themselves and others hurt or killed


----------



## CALEMT (Nov 24, 2015)

Ok so I'm going to go there. DISCLAIMER as a firefighter (seasonal) I have worked with plenty of women who could kick my *** any day of the week and would exceed physical fitness standards. 

Had this been a male who failed 3 times, they would have probably failed him out of the academy. Just going out on a limb for a wild guess that that would happen, and they say females don't get same opportunities as males. How many times does it take to pass a physical fitness test? The standard should be only 1 time, not 3 FAILS. If I was a firefighter assigned on the same engine as her I would not at all feel comfortable or trust her to pull me out of a building. Its not because she's a woman, its because she can't pass the same standards that I would've been held to. She got injured during a daily engine checkout. Something I did for 7 months straight and I never got injured. If she injures herself doing something as simple as checking a engine then how the hell will she be able to preform on a fire? traffic collision? a simple lift assist?

If you can't meet the standards (physical or academic) then you're a danger not only to yourself, but your coworkers, and the people you're there to protect. Im glad this happened during a routine engine checkout and not on a fire. We can only assume the "what if" situation, but what if it were a fire and she injured herself. Who would've been seriously injured or died? A fellow firefighter? A innocent civilian? Moral of this rant: If you can't preform to the set minimum standards then you have NO business being on a fire apparatus.


----------



## Tigger (Nov 25, 2015)

I have less issue with how she got injured. Crap happens, people slip, stuff like that. But how could anyone (of any gender or other demographic) be allowed on the line after failing to pass a fitness test. It's poor practice and you'd think would open the department up to enormous liability.


----------



## AtlasFlyer (Nov 25, 2015)

Yeah, standards are standards and they should apply across the board. Being a 40 year old female, I think I should be given the same opportunity to *try*, and be considered for the job. However, regardless of age or gender if I can't pass the physical requirements I can't pass the physical requirements and should be removed from the program. That, to me, is "equality", apply the same standards to everyone. Everyone isn't going to pass, that's just the way it is. Give someone the chance to meet the standards, if they do, great, if they don't, out.


----------



## DrParasite (Nov 25, 2015)

First off, like many people have said (esp in public safety), if you can't do the job, you shouldn't have the job.  I do think it was a shame that she was allowed to graduate and be assigned to an engine without being able to pass the tests.  As a firefighter, I I don't care about what race/gender/age etc you are, if you can do the job, then let's go; if not, then step aside and let someone who can do the job do it.

HOWEVER, she got hurt on the job, which can happen to any one.  And she didn't get a strain or pulled muscle, she actually broke a bone in her foot (confirmed by X-rays), which could happen to anyone.  I don't think it has anything to do with her ability to pass the academy, as I know 10 and 20 year veterans who hurt themselves while at work.

People do get hurt in this field, both in training/academy and in emergencies.  Once they heal, they are expected to be back on the job.  But the end result is, if you can't do the job, you shouldn't hold the job, regardless of your age, gender, or ethnicity.


----------



## VCEMT (Nov 28, 2015)

Where I used to work, they've been hiring females like crazy. If they aren't on their knees or back with male co-workers, they are on light duty due to injuries. That or crashing rigs. Just adding a fact. I've worked with a few awesome female medics and EMTs and too many terrible male medics and EMTs.


----------



## DesertMedic66 (Nov 28, 2015)

VCEMT said:


> Where I used work, they've been hiring females like crazy. If they aren't on their knees or back with male co-workers, they are on light duty due to injuries. That or crashing rigs. Just adding a fact. I've worked with a few awesome female medics and EMTs and too many terrible male medics and EMTs.


And where is this you used to work? I may need to change companies...


----------



## OnceAnEMT (Nov 29, 2015)

DesertMedic66 said:


> And where is this you used to work? I may need to change companies...



For the aerobics lessons, of course.


----------



## 46Young (Nov 29, 2015)

The CPAT as it is today is a watered down physical test that was made a standard because most people could pass it regardless of physical ability, so more people could be included if you know what I mean.

In the fire academy, the physical stuff goes well beyond CPAT level exertion, so the females that come out are in decent condition. In my personal opinion, where you run into trouble is when the females get into their mid 40's and beyond. We have an annual test called the Work Performance Evaluation that you need to pass in order to keep working in the field. It's basically a beefed up CPAT on air. Here it is:






The limit is 10:47. The bulls knock it out in 4:00 - 5:30. Guys in their 40's do it in 6:30-7:30, the old guys do it in 8 or 9 minutes, although some of them look half-dead when they're finished.. Not that it hasn't been done, but I haven't seen a female get sub 6 mins. The younger ones seem to come in at 8 mins. give or take, and of all of the failures, it's almost always older women, or skinny ones that just do bodyweight stuff and running for PT, and don't do anything to maintain or increase strength. I've seen some older females quit halfway through and rip off the mask, and stop several times in each station. If you walk the thing slowly and methodically, you'll come in at around 7:30. I would be too bored trying to slow it up to 9 mins. or so.

In my opinion, to work in fire suppression, male or female, the bare minimum physical standard should be a 135# back squat x 10 or 135# front squat x 5, 205# deadlift x 5, ground to overhead 135# x 1, 2000m row in 10 minutes. Anything less and you're a liability. For EMS, I would say 95# squat x 10, 155# DL x 5, ground to OH 95#, and still 2000m row 10 mins. I do the 2000m row in just under 7 mins, so 10 mins. is perfectly reasonable. It's not the weak people that get hurt, it's the stronger people lifting with them that need to compensate, that get the injury.

If you need to routinely call for a lift assist for patients as light as 200# you're doing it wrong (male or female), and need to question if you belong in EMS from a physical standpoint. I don't feel that this is particularly harsh, as any normal person can achieve those above benchmarks if they just put in the damn work. Lift things up, put them down, and do an intense circuit finisher after the session, and every few days run a 5k as fast as possible or do 4-8 500m rower sprints with 1-2 mins. rest between bouts. it's not too complicated. Grab a kettlebell, swing and squat with it a bunch of times. Learn Turkish Get-ups to work what the main lifts miss, so you don't tear something when you lift at an odd angle, like taking some out of a bathtub, between the bed and the wall, or doing the Reeves down a few flights of narrow stairs.


----------



## johnrsemt (Dec 1, 2015)

Can't fault her for getting hurt, unless she purposely did something stupid, (or worse did it at home, and covered it up til she got on duty).  We have had people step down off a curb to the street and break a bone in their foot.    Sometimes it happens, and it hurts.

If she uses it to somehow get long term disability or medically retired from FD then that is another problem.   Although most LT disabilities don't start until you have been at the job for 1-3 years.


----------



## 46Young (Dec 1, 2015)

johnrsemt said:


> Can't fault her for getting hurt, unless she purposely did something stupid, (or worse did it at home, and covered it up til she got on duty).  We have had people step down off a curb to the street and break a bone in their foot.    Sometimes it happens, and it hurts.
> 
> If she uses it to somehow get long term disability or medically retired from FD then that is another problem.   Although most LT disabilities don't start until you have been at the job for 1-3 years.



 There are people that go into the office on light duty and never see the field again. Where I work, you have one year to return to full duty after your last surgery, or you're done. There are people that "get hurt," do 11 months on light duty, "get hurt" their first tour back, do 11 months light duty, "get hurt" their first tour back, etc. etc. I've seen it happen with a few different people. It would not be too difficult for this FDNY person to do the same. Return to work, "throw out her back" on an EMS call or picking up hose, something like that. String things along just long enough to qualify for permanent disability, and get paid for life!


----------



## akflightmedic (Dec 2, 2015)

46Young said:


> If you need to routinely call for a lift assist for patients as light as 200# you're doing it wrong (male or female), and need to question if you belong in EMS from a physical standpoint. I don't feel that this is particularly harsh, as any normal person can achieve those above benchmarks if they just put in the damn work.



I mostly agreed with you except for this part. I have a few points to make about calling for lift assists.

1. We do NOT call enough because it is stigmatized, made fun of during or after the fact, or is seen as "less manly" in a machismo culture.
2. There needs to be far more education and focus/encouraging the use of extra hands...even for patients #200 or less.
3. It has NOTHING to do with the weight of the patient, it has everything to do with the extraction. Are there any questionable angles, descents/ascents, or maneuvers which could potentially harm the provider? All about risk mitigation.

*Even if there was ONE part which had me questioning myself or my partner based on that particular patient's cooperation, understanding and acuity, then I would call for an assist.

4. So what if another unit or engine has to come assist. We are all on duty and we should look out for each other. I would come assist any of you in a second if you call for it. I would never question why you called for it, I would never judge you for calling.
5. I have made risky and harmful lifts in my career. Some I deemed necessary in that moment, others were stupid decisions based on my ego or being pressured by a partner who challenged me (either by jokes, looks or comments) or who did not want to wait on incoming assistance. Yes, I caved to peer pressure, even when I was senior man on scene.

Because of this, I have injured myself. There have also been times where I let the injury go unreported. I strongly suspect I am not the only one in this industry who did or is doing the same.

It is time to change the mindset, change the culture.


----------



## johnrsemt (Dec 2, 2015)

I have called for assistance on 200lb patients and not on 300lb patients;  Depends on who my partner is, and where the patient is.

Yes AK  people do get made fun of, and it does need to change.

We should always look out for each other;  and anyone who makes fun of anyone who needs help should be punished for that  not the ones calling for help


----------



## AtlasFlyer (Dec 3, 2015)

My (male) partner and I called for lift assist on an older guy who probably was about 200. He was wedged in a very awkward position between a chair and a wall with a bed in the way. We needed more people to safely get him out of there. If he'd been on the floor in the middle of the room we wouldn't have needed help, but he wasn't. Once the engine crew arrived we all worked together and the man was safely removed and all of us left that run with no injuries or strains.


----------



## Seirende (Dec 3, 2015)

VCEMT said:


> Where I used to work, they've been hiring females like crazy. If they aren't on their knees or back with male co-workers, they are on light duty due to injuries. That or crashing rigs. Just adding a fact. I've worked with a few awesome female medics and EMTs and too many terrible male medics and EMTs.



What an interesting work environment, where the multitudinous female employees seem to be incapable of activities more complicated than sex, crashing ambulances, and hurting themselves. Please clarify; are you implying that their sex has anything to do with their inability to do any work that requires intelligence and skill? As an aside, it seems that the flip side of females engaging in sexual activities with male coworkers is males engaging in sexual activities with female coworkers.

Posts such as the above quoted detract from the conversation.


----------



## 46Young (Dec 4, 2015)

Okay, when I say routinely calling for lift assists, I'm not talking about picking someone up from a bathtub, navigating through a hoarding environment, getting someone over a motorized stair lift, or using a Reeves down winding stairs, wet/icy terrain, etc. I'm sure that everyone can come up with a few examples of difficult lifts to prove a point about requesting a lift assist. What I'm talking about is typically calling for anyone 200# or so that can't stand and pivot, that needs to be sheet transferred to the cot, or lifted up on a board or Reeves from the floor. I've been called to lift a 200# person from the bed to the stair chair, for example. We typically should not be asking for help to get someone 200# from the floor to a chair or cot, or from a bed to a chair or a cot, or to load that same cot into the ambulance. I've worked with people (not talking about females only) that have made it a habit to call frequently for each of these scenarios. I've had situations where we have a patient rapidly decompensating, interventions on board, that don't have the time to wait for another crew to help them get into the ambulance.

National EMS Education Standards, page 5, "Directions and Commands" 3 of 3 says this:

_"Adults often weigh 120-220 lb. *Two EMT's should be able to safely lift this weight. *If patient weighs over 250 lb, use four rescuers. Place strongest EMT at the head"_:

https://code1.us/cow/10eppt/Chapter35.pdf

That sounds about in-line with typical hiring requirements of lifting 150# unassisted (basically a deadlift), and 250# with assistance. In the field, when lifting a patient off of the floor, the one at the head will have more weight, so with a 200# pt, the person at the head will be lifting as if it were a 250# patient with load even distributed between the two crew members. That's why I was being lenient and saying to not automatically call for any 200# patient that needs to be lifted, and not a 250# person.

You shouldn't need more than two people for a stair chair job in most cases for a 200# person. I've had real problems working with weak people when the chair is treadless or we can't use the treads for some reason (going up the stairs for example) - the weak person will insist on taking the bottom, and refuse to take the top lift. What then occurs is that the bottom person holds the handles with fully extended arms, which makes the top person have to lean forward, which puts tremendous pressure on the L-spine. I've maintained a 445# - 495# DL for the last 20 years, and I would've surely blown my back out in that scenario had I been any weaker. A strong person can grab the bottom handles, pull their elbows backwards and upwards to lift the chair as they carry, which lets the top person stay mostly upright, which is much easier on the back, and much safer. I've refused to work with certain partners that play those stair chair shenanigans, and who always have an excuse as to why I should load/unload the cot instead of them. Yes, I may be more capable, but it's reasonable to spread out lifting duties. The stronger person shouldn't be penalized for being more physically capable by being made to do the lion's share of the lifting. All of these lifts add up over time. Two person sheet transfers where I'm obviously doing 85% of the pulling is bad for the patient, and bad for me as well. This species of person that must take the bottom of the stair chair, never loads/unloads the cot, will also ensure that they're positioned at the cot, "lifting" the patient away from them towards the bed, letting their partner do most of the work. This oftentimes makes the transfer a 3 step process.

We all know a few of these people at every EMS job. Again, if you cannot lift a 200# patient with assistance under normal, uncomplicated circumstances, you need to reevaluate whether you belong in EMS from a physical standpoint. Being fit for duty in EMS is one part KSA's, one part physical preparedness, and one part psychological health. All three _must_ be present. Or, if you have little regard for your partners and your patients, and feel that you have a right to be on the job regardless, then do whatever.


----------



## SandpitMedic (Dec 4, 2015)

Why is this devolving into lift assists. The game is simply played: if you can't do the job (mentally or physically) then you shouldn't get the job. 

Be smart enough to know when to call for help, but be able to meet the physical standards.


----------



## triemal04 (Dec 4, 2015)

NO.  Physical and mental standards are judgemental, racist, exclusionary and designed to benefit white men only.  They have no place in America, where everyone can and should be allowed to do whatever they want.  

Side note, maybe we should come up with a color to use when sarcasm is in play...makes it much clearer.


----------



## 46Young (Dec 4, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> Why is this devolving into lift assists. The game is simply played: if you can't do the job (mentally or physically) then you shouldn't get the job.
> 
> Be smart enough to know when to call for help, but be able to meet the physical standards.



The subject of the thread failed FDNY physical standards, and was still allowed to graduate the academy. Strength standards, which directly translate to lifting ability in the field was a natural progression to the conversation.

What do you and others think reasonable physical standards for EMS should be?


----------



## gotbeerz001 (Dec 5, 2015)

For EMS? Weighted stair (or stair mill) climb, 220lb dummy lift (2 person) on backboard from ground to gurney followed by single person gurney load with same backboarded dummy.


----------



## CALEMT (Dec 5, 2015)

gotshirtz001 said:


> Weighted stair (or stair mill) climb,



Like the CPAT with a 75 pound vest?

I would also add some fine motor skill after all the lifting.


----------



## gotbeerz001 (Dec 5, 2015)

CALEMT said:


> Like the CPAT with a 75 pound vest?
> 
> I would also add some fine motor skill after all the lifting.


Maybe 45 lbs... Closer to reality for first-in bag and a monitor.


----------



## CALEMT (Dec 5, 2015)

gotshirtz001 said:


> Maybe 45 lbs... Closer to reality for first-in bag and a monitor.



45 lbs for 3 minutes at X amount of steps per minute would get the juices flowing.


----------



## SandpitMedic (Dec 6, 2015)

I think the FDNY standards are probably fine... It's the fact that they let her graduate after failing to meet them. It isn't the standard of fitness (unless they changed them) but rather the politics involved that are the problem.

As far as EMS goes... If you are not mentally and physically fit to perform your duties you shouldn't be on the job... Same as any other physically demanding profession. Do you see tiny chicks that are lumberjacks swinging and sawing away? No, because they can't handle that... It's reality, not sexism. (I'm not comparing being an EMT to being a lumberjack, nor am I suggesting women can't be in EMS... It's just an illustration of my point).

Most private EMS physical fitness standards are a joke... I know a lot of fat bodies that shouldn't be on the job, but I don't make those kinds of policy decisions.


----------

