# Thinking about an army career 68w



## Firemanfred55

Hello all.

I'm currently a paramedic thinking about join the army to become a 68wf6.
I have a few questions about this position.

1. Can I maintain my Medic Lic?
2. I'm would join as noncombatan(for religious reasons ) how does that effct the MOS?
3. Can I come in as an E-4 becouse of my medic Lic?
4. Should I come in as a NCO? If so how?
5. What should be in writting on my contract?

Thanks for taking time out to help.


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## usafmedic45

> 1. Can I maintain my Medic Lic?


As long as you maintain the credentials required for the job (NREMT-B ), they aren't going to say anything about you having above and beyond the requirement so long as the time required to maintain it, they



> 3. Can I come in as an E-4 becouse of my medic Lic?



Probably not (an army "medic" is not a paramedic so they have no definite incentive to reward folks coming in with additional skills), but ask your recruiter and demand they put it in writing.



> 2. I'm would join as noncombatan(for religious reasons ) how does that effct the MOS?



You do realize there is no such thing as a true "non-combatant" role in modern warfare because no one we fight observes the Geneva Convention.  If you're not willing to use weapons to defend yourself, you're not going to last long as a combat medic once the shooting starts.  We are often the first folks to be picked off during firefights.  

If you have a moral objection to bearing arms, _the military is not for you_.



> 5. What should be in writting on my contract?



Every last thing.



> 4. Should I come in as a NCO? If so how?


You're going to be better off if you start at the bottom just like anyone should.  People who come in with a chip on their shoulder because they have more "knowledge", "skills", "experience" or whatever they want to describe why they think themselves superior to those with real military chops- especially when they come in with unearned or undeserved rank-  those are the sort of folks who find themselves with few friends, little support and (in extreme cases) fragged.  

This is not to mention that if you're going active duty, good luck trying to get a bunch of rank when you don't have that much to offer.

If you want my two cents, avoid the military.  It doesn't sound like you'll like it very much.


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## Firemanfred55

usafmedic45 said:


> As long as you maintain the credentials required for the job (NREMT-B ), they aren't going to say anything about you having above and beyond the requirement so long as the time required to maintain it, they
> 
> 
> 
> Probably not (an army "medic" is not a paramedic so they have no definite incentive to reward folks coming in with additional skills), but ask your recruiter and demand they put it in writing.
> 
> 
> 
> You do realize there is no such thing as a true "non-combatant" role in modern warfare because no one we fight observes the Geneva Convention.  If you're not willing to use weapons to defend yourself, you're not going to last long as a combat medic once the shooting starts.  We are often the first folks to be picked off during firefights.
> 
> If you have a moral objection to bearing arms, _the military is not for you_.
> 
> 
> 
> Every last thing.
> 
> 
> You're going to be better off if you start at the bottom just like anyone should.  People who come in with a chip on their shoulder because they have more "knowledge", "skills", "experience" or whatever they want to describe why they think themselves superior to those with real military chops- especially when they come in with unearned or undeserved rank-  those are the sort of folks who find themselves with few friends, little support and (in extreme cases) fragged.
> 
> This is not to mention that if you're going active duty, good luck trying to get a bunch of rank when you don't have that much to offer.
> 
> If you want my two cents, avoid the military.  It doesn't sound like you'll like it very much.


Thanks for your opinion/facts. Had know idea that I could be placed in a combat unit(sounds crazy) I was thing along the lines of hospital, clinic's, and M.A.S.H units then become a flight medic.
Thanks again.


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## usafmedic45

Yeah, what you're thinking and what the Army thinks are two separate issues. Being a "flight medic" in the Army means you're going to get shot at.  I would not go into combat without a weapon these days.  

Almost every unit in the Army these days in a combat unit with the rare exception that doesn't deploy or works only out of countries that are not actively hostile (think higher level MILINT units). Many military hospitals and clinics are combat units in the sense that they are in the line of fire.  Google "John Pryor" if you need/want further evidence of this.

The long and the short of it:  Don't go into the military unless you're willing to kill to defend yourself and your patients.


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## WTEngel

I have not been in the military, but have done quite a bit of research on becoming a 68w along with the f6 designation, as I was / am still considering joining.

I was told that I could go in as an E-4 because of my certification and experience. They also shorten your a school down to 8 weeks or so, from a total of 16. This is after basic combat training is complete.

You have to have held the 68w designation for at least one year before you are eligible to apply for flight medic school and add the f6 designation. You also have to be in a unit that has open slots for f6, and they have to essentially recommend you to go, after you've filled out the appropriate forms of course. I would be surprised if any units that have medics with f6 designations are non combatant. Also like USAF said, I think the chances of you joining as a non combatant and being allowed to go 68w are virtually zero. In fact the actual name of the 68w specialty is "Combat Medic". Doesn't exactly jive with non combatant status.

Anyway, just my .02

I think your chances of becoming a flight medic are better if you study hard, get the necessary certs and experience, and then begin making connections and applying. Especially if you don't want to engage in combat.


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## usafmedic45

WTEngel said:


> I have not been in the military, but have done quite a bit of research on becoming a 68w along with the f6 designation, as I was / am still considering joining.
> 
> I was told that I could go in as an E-4 because of my certification and experience. They also shorten your a school down to 8 weeks or so, from a total of 16. This is after basic combat training is complete.
> 
> You have to have held the 68w designation for at least one year before you are eligible to apply for flight medic school and add the f6 designation. You also have to be in a unit that has open slots for f6, and they have to essentially recommend you to go, after you've filled out the appropriate forms of course. I would be surprised if any units that have medics with f6 designations are non combatant. Also like USAF said, I think the chances of you joining as a non combatant and being allowed to go 68w are virtually zero. In fact the actual name of the 68w specialty is "Combat Medic". Doesn't exactly jive with non combatant status.
> 
> Anyway, just my .02
> 
> I think your chances of becoming a flight medic are better if you study hard, get the necessary certs and experience, and then begin making connections and applying. Especially if you don't want to engage in combat.


You have to remember that flight medics are flying into hot LZs a significant chunk of the time.  If you're looking not to get shot at or having to shoot at someone, it's seriously not something you want to pursue.  It's not going to be the path from someone who doesn't want to engage in combat.  Yes, there are a few slots for evacuation teams (burn care, etc) but don't hold your breath or bet your morals on those.


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## WTEngel

Yes, I totally agree. When I said study and apply for a flight position, I was referring to in the civilian world...


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## Afflixion

Sorry but I do have to make a few corrections to some posts. First of all you can come in as a specialist, that is if you speak to the right recruiter. Though medics or as they are now called "Healthcare Specialists" as the new 68W MOS designates it, can be placed in any type of unit and are considered under the Geneva Convention and International Laws of War as "noncombatants" I can assure you my time in the Infantry I carried a M4 carbine and M9 pistol, and was versed in their use, as well as numerous squad automated weapons.

As for the NonComissioned Officer portion, one can not enlist as a NCO. In order to become a NCO you have to hold the rank of Specialist for 6months and your duty MOS for 2 years. You must then goto a promotion board in which you are asked questions that an NCO should know by your Command Sergeant Major and the First Sergeants in your battalion, please note this is in your dress uniform and if anything is out of placed or you fail to report to the board properly you will be kicked out. After you pass the board you must then make the proper amount of promotion points, which are obtained through awards, Army Physical Fitness Test scores, marksmanship, civilian education, military education and training.

To reiterate what USAF said, I do not believe you are well suited for the military. If you were ever in a fire fight in my section and failed to return fire which resulted in a casualty I would make sure you spent some time in FT Leavenworth. I do not mean to disrespect you or your religious beliefs but you must be willing to return fire if you wish to join any branch of the military.

EDIT: Left out the F6 ASI, you must be a medic with 1 year experience as an E-4, E-5 (non promotable less than 1 year time in grade), pass a class 3 flight physical, have a passing APFT of 240 or higher, GT score of 110. Slots in a unit do not matter AT ALL, in the class they do but they will just start you later. After completion you will be transfered to a aviation unit which may (most likely) result in a Permanent Change of Station.


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## Firemanfred55

Thanks for your comments. When it comes to F6 landing in a hot zone, yes I expect to take fire that’s why they have gunners. I rely don’t have a problem working in a war zone; my only true concern is what you mentioned about the units fillings toward my beliefs. (Thinking about that before comments) 
As far as spending time in jail for my religious beliefs that the army would be fully aware of (contract)not really worried about that. 
I will look into John Pryor.


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## Firemanfred55

Thanks for your comments. When it comes to F6 landing in a hot zone, yes I expect to take fire that’s why they have gunners. I rely don’t have a problem working in a war zone; my only true concern is what you mentioned about the units fillings toward my beliefs. (Thinking about that before comments) 
As far as spending time in jail for my religious beliefs that the army would be fully aware of (contract)not really worried about that.


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## Firemanfred55

http://www.adventistpeace.org/templates/System/details.asp?id=39491&PID=465440

look from my point of view(Non-combatant) just on example.


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## Afflixion

It would not before your beliefs...it would before negligent homicide, if your beliefs clouded your judgment to the point someone was killed because you failed to watch your sector and return fire. Part of your enlistment oath states you "...stand ready to defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies..." to go along with it the soldiers creed states you "...stand ready to deploy, engage and destroy the enemies of the United States in close combat..."

As I said each has their own belief system and I respect that but if you let your beliefs get in the way of the mission put before you, then the military is not for you, I do apologize if you wish to serve that badly. The military is very big on letting you express your religious freedoms but they always come back to "the mission comes first."


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## Afflixion

I understand that the medic was in times past and is still legally considered a non-combatant role, but not so much anymore. If you do wish to serve and maintain a true status as a noncombatant role your best bet would be a chaplain, they still do not carry weapons and do not engage the enemy. The chaplain is a very important person in just about every soldiers life.


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## Firemanfred55

I did a quick run down on Dr. John Pryor and I think your misunderstanding me.
Working in a war zone is not the problem, if I worked in a C.A.S.H unit and God forbid I shared the same fate, It would be an honor to give my life doing what I love and believe is right.(practicing medicine in a war zone not a problem.)


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## Veneficus

WTEngel said:


> In fact the actual name of the 68w specialty is "Combat Medic". Doesn't exactly jive with non combatant status.




There are only two types of people in combat zones. 

Combatants and victims.

I don't really want to be in combat, but being forced to choose I would pick the former.


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## Afflixion

The problem with working in a CASH is you do not really have any choice for your duty assignment when you first get out of basic and being a male you will more than likely go to a line unit. If you are truly that insistent try to get M6 put in your contract which is a Licensed Practical Nurse (LPN/LVN) you stand almost no chance to goto the line and will be in a CSH (Combat Support Hospital) or MEDAC (Medical Activity) IE stateside hospital unit. The army is in desperate needs of M6's too so it shouldn't be all that difficult to do.


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## Firemanfred55

No apology necessary, just a conversation. As far as negligent homicide, it would be a hard fault case knowing that the army knew well in advance(contract) what my beliefs are.


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## Firemanfred55

Thanks I will look into the M6 AIT, o by the way can you have more than one AIT?


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## HotelCo

If your not willing to defend yourself, don't join the military. Plain and simple. You may be willing to die, but that doesn't mean someone else should just because you wouldn't return fire. 

That's it. No wiggle room. Don't join if you're not willing to shoot someone.


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## Afflixion

M6 is an Additional Skill Identifier your MOS would be 68WM6. You can have any number of ASI and MOS, but you will only operate in one duty MOS and one ASI at a time.


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## Firemanfred55

Thanks


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## Luno

*Maybe not the right choice for you...*



Firemanfred55 said:


> Thanks for your comments. When it comes to F6 landing in a hot zone, yes I expect to take fire that’s why they have gunners. I rely don’t have a problem working in a war zone; my only true concern is what you mentioned about the units fillings toward my beliefs. (Thinking about that before comments)
> As far as spending time in jail for my religious beliefs that the army would be fully aware of (contract)not really worried about that.
> I will look into John Pryor.



Hmmmm, okay, most points have been covered, but Medevac Helos don't have gunners, and the no weapon/non-combatant thing will last until you get the order to carry a weapon.  Then you will be disobeying a lawful order.  I am actually well versed in the SDA/medic history in WWII having been raised SDA, however, I'd be very careful, since the "modern" army in my opinion doesn't have a role for soldiers that refuse to fight.  In basic training, you will be required to familiarize yourself and qualify with a weapon, in AIT you will have to carry a weapon during your FTX, and most likely, you will deploy with a weapon.  TRADOC's message has been pretty definitive that you are a soldier first, MOS second, and that means as the soldier's creed states "deploy, engage and *DESTROY* the enemies of the United States of America in close combat."  If I were you, I would look other than the military if the taking a life conflicts with your beliefs, because not everyone has to take a life, but why would you put yourself in that kind of situation?  If this is something that you are concerned about, I would try to talk to an SDA chaplain, and they can perhaps give better guidance.


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## Tommerag

Firemanfred55 said:


> 2. I'm would join as noncombatan(for religious reasons ) how does that effct the MOS?



Do you mind explaining what you mean by that? As in you wont kill anyone if it come down to it? If so you the military is probably going to consider you a "conscientious objector" and not let you enlist.

Realistically there is no such thing as a non-combatant these days. You don't see just Infantry, Field Artillery, etc (Those are combat MOS's) being killed its also MP's, Transportation, etc (Non-combat MOS's) also being killed.


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## Firemanfred55

What I mean when I say “religious reasons” is that being raised in the(Adventist) church I have been tallit and firmly believe that the taking of a life is wrong. Now I know we can argue self-defense,    and I understand that point of view, but when you enter someone else’s home, country, or property with the intent to use deadly force that’s where I stop.   
So why join the military? As a 68w/one day F6 I truly believe I’ll be there to help and I know I can do that without caring a gun.
Also I do understand that non-combatant’s get killed, that’s not my fear, my fear would be dying(not saying I will)  while doing something I believe is wrong.
And if I can’t join then it wasn’t meant to be.


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## Firemanfred55

If your still a practicing Adventist and have taken a life how did you deal/justify it ?(not being judgmental truly want to know)Always intended to talk with my pastor, just beginning my research into army medical side of things.
Like I pointed out with Tommerag  if they don’t  except me then I’ll move on.(trying to get as much info as possible before talking to a recruiter)


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## HotelCo

I said it before: if you won't fire your weapon at someone, then don't join. You don't care if you die? That's fine, it's your choice, but don't endanger other's lives by joining and then refusing to fire when it's needed. 

Check out the peace corps if you want to travel, they have things available. I believe doctors without borders accepts paramedics as well.


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## Sandog

Afflixion said:


> The problem with working in a CASH is you do not really have any choice for your duty assignment when you first get out of basic and being a male you will more than likely go to a line unit. If you are truly that insistent try to get M6 put in your contract which is a Licensed Practical Nurse (LPN/LVN) you stand almost no chance to goto the line and will be in a CSH (Combat Support Hospital) or MEDAC (Medical Activity) IE stateside hospital unit. The army is in desperate needs of M6's too so it shouldn't be all that difficult to do.



My sister was a Nurse in the military but she was an officer, retired colonel.

As far as these contracts you speak of, I was in the service back in the 70's and the only contract we had was a school guarantee, things must have changed. The OP might want to consider going Navy as a corpman, good chance of serving on a hospital ship or other vessel. There is always a chance of combat medic, but maybe with this new contract thingie they can work something out :unsure:


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## usafmedic45

> If you were ever in a fire fight in my section and failed to return fire which resulted in a casualty I would make sure you spent some time in FT Leavenworth.



In a lot of units, he'd be lucky to survive to see Leavenworth.  Plenty of enemy weapons laying around....just saying.



> It would be an honor to give my life doing what I love and believe is right



That attitude will go away as soon as you start seeing those around you getting wounded and killed.  



> I did a quick run down on Dr. John Pryor and I think your misunderstanding me



I think you're misunderstanding me.  The point is that there is no such thing as a non-combatant in the modern deployed military and while I respect your beliefs, someone espousing them quite frankly is a poor fit for the nature of warfare.  



> If you are truly that insistent try to get M6 put in your contract which is a Licensed Practical Nurse (LPN/LVN) you stand almost no chance to goto the line and will be in a CSH (Combat Support Hospital) or MEDAC (Medical Activity) IE stateside hospital unit. The army is in desperate needs of M6's too so it shouldn't be all that difficult to do.



Unless he gets lucky and winds up in a MEDAC slot, he's still probably going to have to be ready to kill someone to defend the location if worst comes to worst.



> As far as negligent homicide, it would be a hard fault case knowing that the army knew well in advance(contract) what my beliefs are.



Under the UCMJ, it's something like a 90+% conviction rate at courts martial.  Ostensibly you're "innocent until proven guilty" but when the jury is stacked with senior officers and senior enlisted (read as: guys with a lot of combat experience who have probably killed quite a few people themselves), you really don't want to test that theory of yours.



> As far as spending time in jail for my religious beliefs that the army would be fully aware of (contract)not really worried about that.



You really just don't get it do you?  You can't simply refuse a direct lawful order because you disagree with it regardless of your justifications.  As Affilixion pointed out, you pretty much sign your life and beliefs away when you raise your hand for the oath of enlistment. 



> Like I pointed out with Tommerag if they don’t except me then I’ll move on.



Snowball's chance in hell of that.  



> trying to get as much info as possible before talking to a recruiter



Rule #1 of the military (at least prior to bootcamp): All recruiters are trained, professional liars who will tell you anything it takes to get you to sign up. 



> Also I do understand that non-combatant’s get killed, that’s not my fear, my fear would be dying(not saying I will) while doing something I believe is wrong.



Then don't go in the military.


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## Tommerag

I completely agree with usaf's last post.

From you answers you given. I can tell you the military isn't going to be for you.

Everyone gets a weapon. Your trained to kill with your weapon. You need to accept that and if you can't (which you've made pretty clear you can't) don't bother joining you are a conscientious objector. You would be refusing to do your military duty of killing someone if it came down to it. What do you think basic training is? Aside from becoming accustomed to military life it is also basic infantry training, ie learning how to kill.

If you dont know what a conscientious objector is, check the link.


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## Sandog

Tommerag said:


> I completely agree with usaf's last post.
> 
> From you answers you given. I can tell you the military isn't going to be for you.
> 
> Everyone gets a weapon. Your trained to kill with your weapon. You need to accept that and if you can't (which you've made pretty clear you can't) don't bother joining you are a conscientious objector. You would be refusing to do your military duty of killing someone if it came down to it. What do you think basic training is? Aside from becoming accustomed to military life it is also basic infantry training, ie learning how to kill.
> 
> If you dont know what a conscientious objector is, check the link.



As a veteran from the Vietnam era I know the term conscientious objector all too well, technically the OP is not a conscientious objector as he is willing to participate in the military only he refuses to hold a gun. I still think OP should talk to the Navy


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## Tommerag

Sandog said:


> As a veteran from the Vietnam era I know the term conscientious objector all too well, technically the OP is not a conscientious objector as he is willing to participate in the military only he refuses to hold a gun. I still think OP should talk to the Navy



Well the thing is he is going to have to hold and operate a gun at one point or another.


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## ffemt8978

Firemanfred55 said:


> As far as spending time in jail for my religious beliefs that the army would be fully aware of (contract)not really worried about that.


It's been a while since I signed a military contract, but from what I remember of it, NOTHING in it allowed this type of exemption but I could be wrong.  Even guaranteed schooling is not guaranteed, it is conditional.

The contract to join the military is absolutely ironclad in protecting the interests of the government, and while it may appear to protect your interests also, it does not.

So lets say you join the military, and are given orders to deploy to a combat zone.  Let's further say that you are issued a weapon and given orders to use it...we'll be generous and say you're only ordered to use it in self defense.

Let's take it one step further and continue down the line of comments you've posted in this thread.  You refuse to carry the weapon or use it because of your religious beliefs, believing that your "contract" will shield you from being court martialed and jailed.

Given this scenario, here is a quick and dirty (but by no means all inclusive) list of charges you could face:

Article 90—Assaulting or willfully disobeying superior commissioned officer
Article 92—Failure to obey order or regulation
Article 99—Misbehavior before the enemy
Article 134—General article

Article 99 is the doozy on that list, since it's maximum punishment is the death penalty, and it is not conditional upon being at war.  Article 90 also has a death penalty clause, but only for times of war.

If you're truly intent on joining the military and being a medic, and still abiding by your beliefs, then you should seriously consider the Navy as has been previously mentioned.

There is an even bigger aspect to this, but I'm not sure how to phrase it that won't result in me having to ban myself.  I'll work on it and see if I can post it later.


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## Sandog

> There is an even bigger aspect to this, but I'm not sure how to phrase it that won't result in me having to ban myself. I'll work on it and see if I can post it later.



You spoke most eloquently and no further phrasing required as even I caught the drift, so fear not, no need to ban yourself... ^_^

Seriously OP, what is your thinking behind joining the *Armed* forces ? If you want to serve the public and help people there are many, many ways to do that in the civilian sector. Take medic for example, how about fire, another noble profession IMHO...

As my pappy a Korean war vet use to say, you can't have your cake and eat it too...


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## Sandog

Tommerag said:


> Well the thing is he is going to have to hold and operate a gun at one point or another.



Yes, of course you are right. I had to shoot targets in basic and performed drills in the service, but as a shipboard sailor, I never had to use a gun on a actual person. Can't say the same for those Navy that served on PBR's.


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## ffemt8978

ffemt8978 said:


> There is an even bigger aspect to this, but I'm not sure how to phrase it that won't result in me having to ban myself.  I'll work on it and see if I can post it later.



Okay, I think I figured out how to say this so here it is.  I would like to thank the others that I am quoting to help make my point.



HotelCo said:


> I said it before: if you won't fire your weapon at someone, then don't join. You don't care if you die? *That's fine, it's your choice, but don't endanger other's lives by joining and then refusing to fire when it's needed. *


The above quoted post sums up this nasty little aspect very well.  You have the right to believe what you want in the military, but you DO NOT have the right to risk the lives and safety of your fellow members because of your beliefs.  You expect them to protect you, and they expect you to protect them...it's that simple.  When that expectation is not met, then people get hurt and die - even in peace time.  Do you really want to have to explain to a mother, father, wife, or child that their loved one isn't coming home because you beliefs wouldn't let you protect them?  If so, do you really expect anybody in the military to risk themselves in any way to protect you?  And if you directly responsible for another person's death, how does that reconcile with your beliefs against taking a life?  (I realize in that scenario, you're not pulling the trigger but wouldn't you be morally just as responsible as the person who did?)



usafmedic45 said:


> In a lot of units, he'd be lucky to survive to see Leavenworth.  Plenty of enemy weapons laying around....just saying.
> Unfortunate, but true.
> 
> That attitude will go away as soon as you start seeing those around you getting wounded and killed.
> Honestly, if it gets to that point then it's probably too late.
> 
> I think you're misunderstanding me.  The point is that there is no such thing as a non-combatant in the modern deployed military and while I respect your beliefs, someone espousing them quite frankly is a poor fit for the nature of warfare.
> Like sandog said, they're called the Armed Forces for a reason.
> 
> Unless he gets lucky and winds up in a MEDAC slot, he's still probably going to have to be ready to kill someone to defend the location if worst comes to worst.
> Or he would allow several of his fellow service members to become captured, wounded or even killed all in the name of keeping his beliefs.
> 
> Under the UCMJ, it's something like a 90+% conviction rate at courts martial.  Ostensibly you're "innocent until proven guilty" but when the jury is stacked with senior officers and senior enlisted (read as: guys with a lot of combat experience who have probably killed quite a few people themselves), you really don't want to test that theory of yours.
> Yep...can't add to this one.
> 
> You really just don't get it do you?  You can't simply refuse a direct lawful order because you disagree with it regardless of your justifications.  As Affilixion pointed out, you pretty much sign your life and beliefs away when you raise your hand for the oath of enlistment.
> 
> Then don't go in the military.


usafmedic45's post was spot on in every aspect.

This thread has caused me to go back and look at the Oath of Enlistment, and it also sheds some light on this topic.


> I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.



In that oath, I see requirements for supporting and defending the Constitution, bearing true faith, and obeying orders.  What I don't see is any exemptions.


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## Tommerag

If you know people in the military and here them say "Yeah I just signed my life away". Its dead serious you have literally just signed your life away to your country. You also are not supposed to express your views on your elected officials as well, specifically the President. Whether you like him or not, he his now your highest ranking officer as the Commander in Chief.


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## Sandog

ffemt8978 said:


> Okay, I think I figured out how to say this so here it is.  I would like to thank the others that I am quoting to help make my point.
> 
> 
> The above quoted post sums up this nasty little aspect very well.  You have the right to believe what you want in the military, but you DO NOT have the right to risk the lives and safety of your fellow members because of your beliefs.  You expect them to protect you, and they expect you to protect them...it's that simple.  When that expectation is not met, then people get hurt and die - even in peace time.  Do you really want to have to explain to a mother, father, wife, or child that their loved one isn't coming home because you beliefs wouldn't let you protect them?  If so, do you really expect anybody in the military to risk themselves in any way to protect you?  And if you directly responsible for another person's death, how does that reconcile with your beliefs against taking a life?  (I realize in that scenario, you're not pulling the trigger but wouldn't you be morally just as responsible as the person who did?)
> 
> 
> usafmedic45's post was spot on in every aspect.
> 
> This thread has caused me to go back and look at the Oath of Enlistment, and it also sheds some light on this topic.
> 
> 
> In that oath, I see requirements for supporting and defending the Constitution, bearing true faith, and obeying orders.  What I don't see is any exemptions.



Can I get an AMEN brothers in arms. Could not be spoken better, shear brilliance in wording. Might I add one more thing to your wonderful prose, when in combat soldiers do not fight for God and country, they fight for their buddies. If your not willing to do what it takes to save a brethren, then take a look at your understanding of your belief system.

Not to get all biblical and all, but...

Psalm 82:4 Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.  

Proverbs 24:11 Deliver those who are drawn toward death, And hold back those stumbling to the slaughter.

This one is the best, nuff said?

Ezekiel 33 "... 6 'But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman's hand.

Point is, even the bible tells you there are times when it is appropriate to take arms...


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## Tommerag

Amen


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## Afflixion

I do agree that he does not belong in the military except maybe as a chaplain, however the derogatory comments and innuendo is not necessary. The man asked a simple question and from that has stemmed one of the largest threads on the forums. Think about this though, less than 10% of Americans are fit to serve in the military whether it be physical or mental, of that 10% only 10% will actually enlist. So despite this mans belief system which you are making a mockery of he wants to serve his country, which sadly most here have not and would not (not necessarily the posters of this thread.)

I merely suggested one way he may be able to serve in the position he wants, though the likelihood of that coming to fruition is low, there is no need to tread upon a man's dreams. I am a deist personally, but do not make a mockery of any religion because it goes against the accepted norm.

In response to what someone said about not being able to get M6 in your contract, it does happen I have met quite a few people who had it in their initial contract.

CPT Mendoza
PA-C, SP


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## Sandog

Afflixion said:


> I do agree that he does not belong in the military except maybe as a chaplain, however the derogatory comments and innuendo is not necessary. The man asked a simple question and from that has stemmed one of the largest threads on the forums. Think about this though, less than 10% of Americans are fit to serve in the military whether it be physical or mental, of that 10% only 10% will actually enlist. So despite this mans belief system which you are making a mockery of he wants to serve his country, which sadly most here have not and would not (not necessarily the posters of this thread.)
> 
> I merely suggested one way he may be able to serve in the position he wants, though the likelihood of that coming to fruition is low, there is no need to tread upon a man's dreams. I am a deist personally, but do not make a mockery of any religion because it goes against the accepted norm.
> 
> In response to what someone said about not being able to get M6 in your contract, it does happen I have met quite a few people who had it in their initial contract.
> 
> CPT Mendoza
> PA-C, SP



Hold on thar bubulooie... who made derogatory remarks to the OP? I think everyone has been quite polite and has simply stated that perhaps the guy is looking into a field for which he would have much discomfort with. Correct me if I am wrong.


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## Afflixion

There a a few comments that are quite uncalled for if you wish to look back. Though I understand you are all voicing your opinions but one post on the subject is all that is really warranted. If you are not going to provide an answer other than restating what you initially stated why bother to post again?


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## Sandog

Afflixion said:


> There a a few comments that are quite uncalled for if you wish to look back. Though I understand you are all voicing your opinions but one post on the subject is all that is really warranted. If you are not going to provide an answer other than restating what you initially stated why bother to post again?



No, one opinion is not often enough, when a person is considering a job in the US military which is a life altering decision, many opinions are often needed in order to allow that person to make a wise choice. As a veteran I feel I am a good person to state such an opinion and as an American who defended my flag, I will state my opinion as often as I care to, thank you very much...


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## Sandog

Thanks for the PM Afflix, you are back on my Christmas list...


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## Afflixion

Haha, cool can't wait until I get the card!


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## usafmedic45

Afflixion said:


> There a a few comments that are quite uncalled for if you wish to look back. Though I understand you are all voicing your opinions but one post on the subject is all that is really warranted. If you are not going to provide an answer other than restating what you initially stated why bother to post again?



When he refuses to learn, sometimes you have to beat him over the head before he gets someone else killed.  I have no problem with him getting himself killed if he so chooses, but he deserves no respect for seeking glory or amusement at the potential cost of the lives of those around him because he can't get over some mild hangups because of the way he was raised.


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## Veneficus

usafmedic45 said:


> Rule #1 of the military (at least prior to bootcamp): All recruiters are trained, professional liars who will tell you anything it takes to get you to sign up.


 
I don't particualrly agree with this statement having done recruiting myself.


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## Firemanfred55

Sandog said:


> Can I get an AMEN brothers in arms. Could not be spoken better, shear brilliance in wording. Might I add one more thing to your wonderful prose, when in combat soldiers do not fight for God and country, they fight for their buddies. If your not willing to do what it takes to save a brethren, then take a look at your understanding of your belief system.
> 
> Not to get all biblical and all, but...
> 
> Psalm 82:4 Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.
> 
> Proverbs 24:11 Deliver those who are drawn toward death, And hold back those stumbling to the slaughter.
> 
> This one is the best, nuff said?
> 
> Ezekiel 33 "... 6 'But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman's hand.
> 
> Point is, even the bible tells you there are times when it is appropriate to take arms...






To whoever quoted text before, quoting a text read the whole chapter.
But thanks to everyone and there opinions I have a lot to research,and think about.
"sounding the alarm" means gun fire?


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## Sandog

Firemanfred55 said:


> To whoever quoted text before, quoting a text read the whole chapter.
> But thanks to everyone and there opinions I have a lot to research,and think about.
> "sounding the alarm" means gun fire?



I think all that has been needed said has been said, so I will leave you with my sincere hope that you find your direction and may be happy in what ever endeavor you choose. One final thought is may you have fair winds and following sea's...


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## TNFF412N

Firemanfred55 said:


> To whoever quoted text before, quoting a text read the whole chapter.
> But thanks to everyone and there opinions I have a lot to research,and think about.
> "sounding the alarm" means gun fire?




Remember this when you join. You are a SOLDIER First... Everybody goes thru Basic Traininng for a reason. You go to AIT after you have become a SOLDIER. IF you decide that the possibilty of defending yourself or others might be in question just dont do it. Medic i was with were issued The same weapons we had. They were expected to do what we did untill they were needed. Just because you are a medic with lets say an MP company,  You are not going to be sitting in a truck waiting for someone to get hurt, you will be kicking the door, driving the truck, and many other tasks.


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## 82nd medic

Ever hear the term "the best medicine is preventive medicine"? IF you become a medic with the line, the best preventive medicine is preventing your guys from getting shot at/etc... And the best way to do that is to shoot whatever insurgent first. If you go to a hospital: well whatever, you're never going to use your weapon anyway but you're going to hate cleaning bed pans and drawing blood for 4 years... Btw I never heard of 68wf6... I've heard of m6 which is lvn


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## Tommerag

Way to bump the thread guys. The OP hasn't even been on the forum since March 22nd.


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## ffemt8978

Just because the OP hasn't been back doesn't mean other people couldn't find this thread useful or informative.


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## usafmedic45

> Btw I never heard of 68wf6... I've heard of m6 which is lvn



It's odd that you haven't heard of that, but F6 is the designator for the flight medics who work on the Army's medical helicopters.  I've always seen it written as 68W(skill level code)/F6 though.


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## Combat_Medic

There are several identifiers for medics.
As a SPC if i was a flight medic i would be a 68w10F3

This is right off the 68w amedd website.

Recently, the Army approved changing the 68W Flight Medic Program to an Additional Skill Identifier (ASI) producing course. Effective 1 November 2010, 68W Soldiers that complete the Flight Medic Course conducted by USASAM at Fort Rucker, AL, will now be awarded ASI “F3,” Aeromedical Evacuation (Rotary Wing). This initiative will enable the Army Medical Department to more effectively manage Soldiers with this critical skill set, ensuring Soldiers with ASI F3 are properly assigned and utilized in Flight Medic positions. This is especially important in the future as our Air Ambulance Companies increase their capacity from 12 to 15 helicopters, and our authorizations for Flight Medics increase from 325 to 490 in the Active Army between now and FY16. Implementation instructions for this change can be found in Notification of Future Change (NOFC) E-1010-19 in the electronic DA Pam 611-21 smart book at https://smartbook.armyg1.pentagon.mil


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## armedic

Afflixion said:


> Sorry but I do have to make a few corrections to some posts. First of all you can come in as a specialist, that is if you speak to the right recruiter. Though medics or as they are now called "Healthcare Specialists" as the new 68W MOS designates it, can be placed in any type of unit and are considered under the Geneva Convention and International Laws of War as "noncombatants" I can assure you my time in the Infantry I carried a M4 carbine and M9 pistol, and was versed in their use, as well as numerous squad automated weapons.
> 
> As for the NonComissioned Officer portion, one can not enlist as a NCO. In order to become a NCO you have to hold the rank of Specialist for 6months and your duty MOS for 2 years. You must then goto a promotion board in which you are asked questions that an NCO should know by your Command Sergeant Major and the First Sergeants in your battalion, please note this is in your dress uniform and if anything is out of placed or you fail to report to the board properly you will be kicked out. After you pass the board you must then make the proper amount of promotion points, which are obtained through awards, Army Physical Fitness Test scores, marksmanship, civilian education, military education and training.
> 
> To reiterate what USAF said, I do not believe you are well suited for the military. If you were ever in a fire fight in my section and failed to return fire which resulted in a casualty I would make sure you spent some time in FT Leavenworth. I do not mean to disrespect you or your religious beliefs but you must be willing to return fire if you wish to join any branch of the military.
> 
> EDIT: Left out the F6 ASI, you must be a medic with 1 year experience as an E-4, E-5 (non promotable less than 1 year time in grade), pass a class 3 flight physical, have a passing APFT of 240 or higher, GT score of 110. Slots in a unit do not matter AT ALL, in the class they do but they will just start you later. After completion you will be transfered to a aviation unit which may (most likely) result in a Permanent Change of Station.



i was going to respond, but this guy nailed it all right on the head. don't join, or if you just have to, look into the USCG. sounds more like your style


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## Afflixion

armedic said:


> i was going to respond, but this guy nailed it all right on the head. don't join, or if you just have to, look into the USCG. sounds more like your style



Even the Coast Guard deploys and in times of peace are way more likely to use lethal force than an infantryman.


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## dstevens58

I was a former Navy Hospital Corpsman, some of the jobs I've had have been a ward corpsman (in patient stuff), medical supply warehouse, laboratory technician, x-ray technician, and independent duty corpsman.

I have deployed with the Marines, I have been deployed with the Navy (Persian Gulf 1988).....all along, I have been the one to treat wounded.  

All this rambling to say, if threatened....I would not hesitate to take a life (or injure) so SHOOT-DISARM-then TREAT the patient.  I did take an OATH to uphold, support & defend.  My Commander-in-Chief is the President whether I like it or not.  I have given orders and received orders, to which I've acted upon them, whether I like them or not.

IMHO, the military is not a place for a conscientious objector.  That's my two-cents worth.

I applaud you for your beliefs and your willingness to stand up for them, but best feel that you're suited in some place other than the military services.  God bless you in what ever you choose.


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## EMT11KDL

Just an fyi F6 slots are open, there is one or two slots that were given to the 232 Med bn for the students....


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## BornleaderEMT

*Question to the original OP*

What are your reasons for considering joining? Is it to serve your country? Just asking because you can get a much better job. I mean you are already a paramedic. I'm currently serving and have been in for 11 years as a Emt. Just curious.


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