# Looking for some advice



## PaulieThePirate (Feb 26, 2009)

I’m a new EMT-B who wants to be a paramedic. I would like to start paramedic school next year but I’ve been getting a lot of mixed reviews. Most tell me that I’m to new to the field and that I should get more experience first. I’ve had equal amounts of people tell me that this would be a good time in my life to do it. Since I don’t have anything tying me down. Do you recommend that I wait or get started with the school? Can anyone recommend schools in the Boston area?


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## Ridryder911 (Feb 26, 2009)

Having experience is nice and required in some areas, but should NOT be. Check for nationally accredited programs, while in school then after you have obtained your general education start searching for a good Paramedic program. 

Don't just settle for the EMT class. It's just above a first aid course, and you probably found out it is hard to get a job working directly with emergency services. Go all the way or nothing, if you are serious about this profession. 

R/r 911


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## Ms.Medic (Feb 26, 2009)

I second that !!! Dont wait. Just go for it, you'll either get it, or you wont.


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## PapaBear434 (Feb 26, 2009)

PaulieThePirate said:


> I’m a new EMT-B who wants to be a paramedic. I would like to start paramedic school next year but I’ve been getting a lot of mixed reviews. Most tell me that I’m to new to the field and that I should get more experience first. I’ve had equal amounts of people tell me that this would be a good time in my life to do it. Since I don’t have anything tying me down. Do you recommend that I wait or get started with the school? Can anyone recommend schools in the Boston area?



I just got bopped in the head for saying this, but I would say to get a couple shifts under your belt as BLS before you to to medic school.  It's the foundation to everything we do, even ALS, so you better have that down first.

But, still, it depends on your situation.  In my area, they take for granted that you know a lot of stuff from being on the ambulance and watching the medics.  

Then, it also might depend on your personality.  For me, it was beneficial to spend a few months getting released BLS and working it to get a better sense of what the real life side of EMS is.  Trying to master BLS and learning ALS would have likely been too much for me and I would have burned out.  If you are the kind of person that thrives on the pressure and loves to fast track, however, you may LOVE doing just that.  

So really, it comes down to how much you want to put on your shoulders all at once.  Now that I am in ALS, I'm doing the fast track, but I wanted to get my basics down to instinct first.  Others claim that the "zero to hero" route is the way to go, as you don't have time to develop bad BLS habits before moving on to the ALS side of things.  

Your mileage may vary depending on who you are.


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## QSMITH89 (Feb 26, 2009)

I know I wasn't the one that started this topic, I just started by basic class and I'll be taking my medic after that, so thanks for all the great advice.


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## sir.shocksalot (Feb 26, 2009)

PaulieThePirate said:


> I’m a new EMT-B who wants to be a paramedic. I would like to start paramedic school next year but I’ve been getting a lot of mixed reviews. Most tell me that I’m to new to the field and that I should get more experience first. I’ve had equal amounts of people tell me that this would be a good time in my life to do it. Since I don’t have anything tying me down. Do you recommend that I wait or get started with the school? Can anyone recommend schools in the Boston area?


Get some experience first. While I agree with everyone who is about to flame me in saying that you should just be educated straight to a paramedic level. As EMS stands right this second, you need experience to excel as a paramedic. How much experience is totally up to you. It took me about six months to feel comfortable with all my skills and that got me a good working knowledge of ALS procedures. But as most people on this forum will point out, what do i know? I'm just an ambulance driver.


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## PaulieThePirate (Feb 26, 2009)

Thanks for all the insight I think your response was just what I needed to hear. I will have a little experience before hand considering the classes don’t start for another 7mnths. Now I just need to find a good school in the area. Thanks again B)


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## medic417 (Feb 26, 2009)

There is no reason to stop and work as a basic.  No other medical field stops and works at the lower level.  They get educated then go out.  If you choose a quality program you will do more good getting your Paramedic rather than wasting time and picking up bad habits from those that do the job wrong.  Remember the statement practice makes perfect.  Well that statement is wrong.  It should say perfect practice makes perfect, because if you practice the wrong way you will never get perfect or good.


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## BossyCow (Feb 26, 2009)

medic417 said:


> There is no reason to stop and work as a basic.  .



Depending on the state, you may need to work as a basic for a year or so before being allowed to apply to medic school. Check out the prereqs in your area.


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## medic417 (Feb 26, 2009)

BossyCow said:


> Depending on the state, you may need to work as a basic for a year or so before being allowed to apply to medic school. Check out the prereqs in your area.



Thank you.  While it is not needed for your benefit some states do require you waste a year before getting your Paramedic education.


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## NomadicMedic (Feb 26, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Thank you.  While it is not needed for your benefit some states do require you waste a year before getting your Paramedic education.



...or *THREE* years. 

King County Paramedic Trainee

MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS
This position requires three (3) years of field experience as an EMT or Paramedic in a pre-hospital Emergency Medical Services setting, one (1) year of which must be consecutive experience with a single agency. If you do not have at least three years of experience you do not qualify to participate in the testing process. No exceptions will be made.


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 26, 2009)

As always, Ridryder911 is the one to listen to here.  He's the only experienced paramedic educator with advanced education who has commented on the thread so far.  You'll want to take advice on advanced education, from those who have no advanced education, with a grain of salt, at best.

To elaborate on Rid's succinct points:



Ridryder911 said:


> Having experience is nice and required in some areas, but should NOT be.


Although some schools may require it, EMT experience is not necessary or even advisable for success in paramedic school.  it's just a hoop that people want you to jump through so that you don't get ahead any faster than they did.  It may help you decide if you really want to do EMS for a career, if you are at all unsure.  But otherwise, EMT experience is completely overrated and will almost always delay your professional development.  Do you wish you had taken a couple years off between middle school and high school to get life "experience"?  Of course not.  Nuff said.  It's not even a sound theory.  Avoid it if at all possible.  



> Check for nationally accredited programs...


Here is where to find Nationally Accredited programs:

http://www.caahep.org/Find_An_Accredited_Program.aspx

Don't bother looking for Massachusetts.  There is not a single accredited program in the entire state.  You're going to have to leave the state to find accredited paramedic education.



> ...after you have obtained your general education start searching for a good Paramedic program.


The general education Rid speaks of is the scientific (physical and social sciences) foundational education found in the college prerequisite courses that are recommended for pre-paramedic preparation.  Just because you attend a school that doesn't require them doesn't mean you shouldn't take them.  Before you even think of applying for a paramedic school, you should complete, as a very minimum, the following college courses:

* Anatomy & Physiology I and II with laboratories
* Microbiology
* Chemistry I
* Algebra
* Intro Psychology
* Developmental Psychology
* Intro Sociology

There are other courses that will be required for graduation with a degree, and are important to your professional development.  However, those courses are not science courses, and can be completed concurrently with medic courses without completely overloading you, if you are a good student.  The above listed courses will take you a full semester year to complete.  If you need to work as an EMT during that time to make ends meet, that is understandable.  However again, it is not recommended.  Not only does work experience as an EMT give you numerous bad habits and bad ideas that hurt you as a medic student, but it is simply almost impossible to attend college full time and get maximum benefit from your courses while working an EMT schedule.  So again, if at all possible, avoid working as an EMT during this time.

Whether or not you choose a degree program is not as important as the quality of the program itself.  So long as you complete the same college prerequisites BEFORE attending a tech school certificate program, your final educational preparation can be every bit as good as any degree program.  And many colleges will allow you to transfer that tech school time over to them to complete your degree in a very short time.  But remember that, when it comes to education, more is better.  It doesn't matter if your school lasts 4 months or two years, it still all breaks down to actual hours.  Regardless of how many months it took, a 2000 hour course beats an 800 hour course any day.  Look for quality and quantity when choosing your school.

Good luck!


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 26, 2009)

BossyCow said:


> Check out the prereqs in your area.


Or leave your area, which is always advisable in Massachusetts.


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## PaulieThePirate (Feb 26, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> Or leave your area, which is always advisable in Massachusetts.



leaving mass may have been the best advice so far. lol


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## HasTy (Feb 26, 2009)

Ok the best advice I can give you is to learn from my mistake go for a paramedic degree at least an AAS preferably an BS


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## medic417 (Feb 26, 2009)

TylerHastings said:


> Ok the best advice I can give you is to learn from my mistake go for a paramedic degree at least an AAS preferably an BS



Thank you for a brutally painful honest answer.


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 26, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Thank you for a brutally painful honest answer.


Props for that.  And I would also admit that, the reason my advice is so good is not because I did everything right.  The reason my advice is so good is because I did so many things wrong.

A mistake that is learned from is not really a mistake at all.  It's education.


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## reaper (Feb 26, 2009)

PapaBear434 said:


> I just got bopped in the head for saying this, but I would say to get a couple shifts under your belt as BLS before you to to medic school.  It's the foundation to everything we do, even ALS, so you better have that down first.
> 
> But, still, it depends on your situation.  In my area, they take for granted that you know a lot of stuff from being on the ambulance and watching the medics.
> 
> ...



PB, this is not directed at you. You just happen to state what others throw out there!

What BLS skills are takings people months or years to master?

Taking a BP?
Splinting?
Bandaging?
Backboarding?

I see no skill that an EMT should not have mastered by the time they graduate. 

The only skill to learn is dealing with pt's. That one you should have down before class. Can you talk to people and carry on a conversation?

Are you shy and timid and afraid to speak to people?

You can guess which person will succeed in a medical profession. Remember one thing. Not everyone is cut out for the medical field. If schools would go back to screening students. This would be headed off at the pass!


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## PapaBear434 (Feb 26, 2009)

reaper said:


> PB, this is not directed at you. You just happen to state what others throw out there!
> 
> What BLS skills are takings people months or years to master?
> 
> ...



Taking a proper assessment and knowing what questions to ask, mostly.  Moving a patient, properly driving the rig L&S, dealing with a wide array of patients, and generally seeing things in real life.  Seeing SVT in real life is a lot different from just reading it in a book.

It just depends on the kind of person you are, and what environment your area teaches in.


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## BossyCow (Feb 26, 2009)

And yet another thread in the BLS forum morphs into ALS


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 26, 2009)

PapaBear434 said:


> Taking a proper assessment and knowing what questions to ask, mostly.  Moving a patient, properly driving the rig L&S, dealing with a wide array of patients, and generally seeing things in real life.  Seeing SVT in real life is a lot different from just reading it in a book.


Since you have not put anything about your level of practice or education (or anything else for that matter) in your profile, you'll have to excuse us for having to make assumptions.  But if you think you really learned anything about proper assessments in EMT school, that would suggest that it is the only level that you have attained.  Assessment in EMT school is nothing but vital signs and asking a bunch of questions that you are not taught the relevance of, much less how to interpret the answers.  And I have yet to see an EMT school that teaches anything about assessment or SVT that is not taught and practiced in paramedic school.  And if you think that reading a book is all you learn about SVT in paramedic school, that is further evidence that you know nothing about paramedic school.

Moving a patient and driving L&S are indeed learned with experience.  What I do not understand is what leads you to believe that this experience is essential to have before you attend paramedic school.  It's as if you believe that, once you enter paramedic school, you no longer run emergencies or see patients.  There is simply no logic to this assumption.  None.  It's just that, an assumption.  And in over twenty years as a paramedic educator, I have found it to be a completely invalid one.

Reaper is absolutely correct.  There is nothing positive learned as an EMT in the field that puts you ahead of an inexperienced EMT as a paramedic student.  And if it is taking you years of experience to figure out how to do any of those basic skills, you probably are not cut out to be a medic.


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## medic417 (Feb 26, 2009)

BossyCow said:


> And yet another thread in the BLS forum morphs into ALS



Bossy the person asked a question and the answer was given.  As the various points to that answer are debated it is hard not to include discussion of ALS because that is what his question related to.


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 26, 2009)

Seriously.  There was no morphing involved.  It was asked as an ALS educational question in the first place.  I suppose we could have ignored his question and told him all sorts of happy things without ever addressing his concerns, but that wouldn't be very neighborly.


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## jrm818 (Feb 26, 2009)

in MA as of now there are no accredited paramedic training programs.  As of 2012 you will not be able to become NREMT certified as a paramedic unless you are graduating from an accredited program.  NEEMSI in Manchester (NH) is accredited and approved by MAOEMS.  I've heard good things about it, but that's coming from a small sample size, and I don't' know how reliable that is.

Unfortunately that is not a degree program.  Northern Essex has an AS program including most of the classes you were advised to take earlier, but it's not accredited.  That said, the rule requiring accreditation by 2012 is pretty new, and I can't imagine they wouldn't become accredited, so you might want to call and ask if they plan to go through the process.  Same story for the other community colleges around.

I don't think you should worry about working as an EMT (I've got far less experience than Rid or many of the others, but I'm familiar with your area).  You'll get just as much exposure during your clinicals in hospital and in the field.  Go for the medic right away.

Where you are unless you volunteer the only sort of experience you'll get as an EMT is doing IFT's and maybe the very odd 911 call.  That's certainly useful in terms of getting used to dealing with patients and other providers and doing assessments, but far from irreplaceable.   The BLS 911 jobs (on ALS crews) will generally go to the EMT's with years in, from what I've heard.  Where are you going to be "getting your experience" over the next 7 months?


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## PapaBear434 (Feb 26, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> Since you have not put anything about your level of practice or education (or anything else for that matter) in your profile, you'll have to excuse us for having to make assumptions.  But if you think you really learned anything about proper assessments in EMT school, that would suggest that it is the only level that you have attained.  Assessment in EMT school is nothing but vital signs and asking a bunch of questions that you are not taught the relevance of, much less how to interpret the answers.  And I have yet to see an EMT school that teaches anything about assessment or SVT that is not taught and practiced in paramedic school.  And if you think that reading a book is all you learn about SVT in paramedic school, that is further evidence that you know nothing about paramedic school.
> 
> Moving a patient and driving L&S are indeed learned with experience.  What I do not understand is what leads you to believe that this experience is essential to have before you attend paramedic school.  It's as if you believe that, once you enter paramedic school, you no longer run emergencies or see patients.  There is simply no logic to this assumption.  None.  It's just that, an assumption.  And in over twenty years as a paramedic educator, I have found it to be a completely invalid one.
> 
> Reaper is absolutely correct.  There is nothing positive learned as an EMT in the field that puts you ahead of an inexperienced EMT as a paramedic student.  And if it is taking you years of experience to figure out how to do any of those basic skills, you probably are not cut out to be a medic.



I practice as an EMT-B right now, working on my ALS qualifications with a preceptor right now, thanks.  But as you seem outwardly hostile to me (for being a volunteer rather than taking a stand and refusing to work until I get paid or having the audacity to say that BLS is just as important to the EMS service as paramedics, I suppose), I'm just going to cease discourse with you for a while.  

Nothing personal, you understand.  But this place is a great resource for information for me, being a student, and I'd rather not receive a ban for getting dragged into constant conflicts with you.  So until you can get over your undeserved righteous indignation and just have a certain level of civil discourse, I think I'm just going to back off for a while.


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 26, 2009)

Your loss.


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## reaper (Feb 26, 2009)

That could be a long long time!


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## el Murpharino (Feb 26, 2009)

I thought the same as you in regards to having BLS experience before going to paramedic school...but all it really did was prevent me from learning more - and properly.  The problem with some of the medics out there is that they have developed bad habits, ones you will invariably learn while working alongside them over time.  You will get plenty of experience as you do your clinical time.  I wouldn't worry too much about the driving part...that stuff is rather easy.  Lastly, find an accredited medic program, and absorb it.  Immerse yourself in the study and devote your life to it.  You will be a better clinician for it.  Shop around for a medic class like you would buying a car.  Ask other providers for their recommendations, go online and look around, etc.  Just don't pick one class over the other because it's shorter or easier...your career will suffer for it.  Put in the extra time and effort now...reap the rewards later.


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 26, 2009)

el Murpharino said:


> I thought the same as you in regards to having BLS experience before going to paramedic school...but all it really did was prevent me from learning more - and properly.


For the record, just like Murph, I believed all that too at one point.  And my development also suffered for it.  With real education, you finally learn how wrong you were.  Hopefully.


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## PapaBear434 (Feb 26, 2009)

el Murpharino said:


> I thought the same as you in regards to having BLS experience before going to paramedic school...but all it really did was prevent me from learning more - and properly.  The problem with some of the medics out there is that they have developed bad habits, ones you will invariably learn while working alongside them over time.  You will get plenty of experience as you do your clinical time.  I wouldn't worry too much about the driving part...that stuff is rather easy.  Lastly, find an accredited medic program, and absorb it.  Immerse yourself in the study and devote your life to it.  You will be a better clinician for it.  Shop around for a medic class like you would buying a car.  Ask other providers for their recommendations, go online and look around, etc.  Just don't pick one class over the other because it's shorter or easier...your career will suffer for it.  Put in the extra time and effort now...reap the rewards later.



Like I said, but maybe it was in another thread, that it all depends on who you are as a person, what you thrive on, and what your area is set up around.  My area is a very densely populated area with a lot of traffic.  Driving isn't as easy as you would imagine, what with having to navigate crowded streets, underwater tunnels, bridges, airport standbys...  

And in my area, medics are told to tell the BLS what they are doing, and why, so not only do they learn but it acts as a witness of record.  Someone to back you up as to what you were doing.

However, some areas may not be set up this way.  Understandable, as EMS is a very fractured division of the medical community and there really isn't a national standard, despite the National Registry's best efforts.  Thus, if the "zero to hero" route works for you due to your personallity, your area, or any other reason, more power to you.  I'll see you out on the road just the same, no matter how we choose to get there.

I don't see what the big deal is, really.  The extra two months it took me to run as a trainee and get released EMT-B within my agency certainly didn't hurt my knowledge.  It certainly didn't act as a detriment to my patient care to learn how to deal with different personalities, situations, protocols, and yes, even how to drive something with the approximate weight distribution and dimensions of an oversized can of Spam at high speeds through dense traffic.  But I imagine the flip side would be true as well, that NOT taking that extra two months to master the "menial" work that a particularly smart monkey could do isn't going to hurt you either.  It's something that can be picked up along the way during clinicals and experience after the fact.

Just because people may be doing it slightly different from you does not mean they will end up a terrible medic.  Hell, they might end up better than you.  Just so long as they meet the same qualifications and levels of knowledge, what does it matter that they decided to take an extra couple weeks to work the basics down?

Bottom line:  For some people, getting general experience as a basic will help them.  For others, it won't do a damn thing but waste their time.  Which one you are depends on you alone.


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## Ridryder911 (Feb 26, 2009)

Just for clarification and to educate the NREMT has *NO* standards and yes, there is a National Standard. The national standards are called the NHTSA EMT curriculum, etc. In fact new standards are to be released this year. 

Just to keep the information correct. 

R/r 911


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## PapaBear434 (Feb 26, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> Just for clarification and to educate the NREMT has *NO* standards and yes, there is a National Standard. The national standards are called the NHTSA EMT curriculum, etc. In fact new standards are to be released this year.
> 
> Just to keep the information correct.
> 
> R/r 911



I stand corrected.  I just got that newsletter and read up on it myself.  What I was referring to was the fact that so many agencies can have so many different protocols and even states can have completely different qualifications.  Here in Virginia, we have EMT-E, that is a step below EMT-I that allows for IV access, certain basic drugs like D50, Epi, and the like, and intubation.  My agency, however, doesn't let them intubate, even though the state itself does.  Back in my home state of Michigan, they teach intubation to Basics and individual agencies decide if they are allowed to do it depending on the rural nature of the area.  Which, for the record, I believe is wrong.  Intubation is WAY to invasive a procedure for Basics to be doing...

So, bad phrasing on my part.  But my overall point of having a few months of training vs. going all the way to paramedic before running remains valid, no?  Then, seeing your background in nursing and your previous posts, you strike me as an "All or Nothing" type of guy.  Nothing wrong with that, but I just don't think it matters that much.  So long as you don't spend years at the Basic level, that is.  I do know those that have done that, and they have made pretty luke-warm medics in my newbie opinion.


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## Ridryder911 (Feb 26, 2009)

No problem, but too many place emphasis upon the NREMT' when in fact they are just a testing organization and that's all folks! Yes, they attempt to make recommendations (as many other national organizations does as well) but their only existence is to test. 

You brought up the problem with EMS and why they (NHTSA) is attempting to remove some of the 100+ acronyms for EMT's. As long, as EMT's allows excuses for obtaining levels; states will develop titles.

R/r 911


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## PapaBear434 (Feb 27, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> No problem, but too many place emphasis upon the NREMT' when in fact they are just a testing organization and that's all folks! Yes, they attempt to make recommendations (as many other national organizations does as well) but their only existence is to test.
> 
> You brought up the problem with EMS and why they (NHTSA) is attempting to remove some of the 100+ acronyms for EMT's. As long, as EMT's allows excuses for obtaining levels; states will develop titles.
> 
> R/r 911



We meet our middle ground, it seems.  I would LOVE to see it uniform across the nation in the way that LPN and RN are.  Three levels are fine, two would be better.  But I also recognize that until pay goes up, it's going to be a hard press to get people to dedicate three years of their life and incessant amounts of hoops to jump through to get their Medic for such a small return.  So until that time, volunteers at the Basic level are going to be needed to pad the lesser, more BS taxi calls to keep the Medics like yourself and my future self free for the more important, emergent calls.

I said it in another thread, but what I'd love to see is medic level training being similar to RN or even nurse practitioner, given treat-and-release powers and the ability to supply certain meds within standing orders and medical control, such as antibiotics and the like.  Cut down on the ER being tied up, cut down on the amount of time that is tied up in transport of non-emergent cases...  But unless Universal Health Care becomes a reality, allowing funding for these trauma-nurses on wheels, I don't see it happening.


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## VentMedic (Feb 27, 2009)

PapaBear434 said:


> I said it in another thread, but what I'd love to see is medic level training being similar to RN or even nurse practitioner, given treat-and-release powers and the ability to supply certain meds within standing orders and medical control, such as antibiotics and the like. Cut down on the ER being tied up, cut down on the amount of time that is tied up in transport of non-emergent cases... But unless Universal Health Care becomes a reality, allowing funding for these trauma-nurses on wheels, I don't see it happening.


 
At this time a two year degree is reachable but not likely anytime soon across the U.S. 

To prescribe meds, a DEA number must be approved for that profession. Until there are standard and higher education requirements, that will not be likely. There are two physician extenders, NP and PA, that have stepped up to the challenge by extending their education with many states requiring a Masters degree for these professions. Their education options have prepared them for either family practice or specialty including emergency medicine. Their national organizations have and are working together to find solutions for various health care situations. EMS providers are still squabbling amongst themselves about what to be called and how many "certs" or which service is better. 

Non-emergent calls are also considered "BS" to many in EMS. Those that flock to EMS for the L/S glamour are not going to be happy spending shift after shift taking tempatures and prescribing antibiotics to runny noses. If they are annoyed and bored with BS calls now, what happens when they become a focus of EMS providers? What happens to the word "emergency"? Will there still be people wanting to be Paramedics without all that exciting stuff? And where does that leave the FDs and ambulance services who depend on quick education to get Paramedics on trucks? Is a Masters degree like the NP and PA an overkill for what a Paramedic is actually used for in emergencies? It will be a long time before EMS can change its attitude and focus as the NP and PA already have. Their strong national organizations have given them strength and unity as well as an acceptance by good PR with issues that appeal to the public as not being self serving.


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## Foxbat (Feb 27, 2009)

PaulieThePirate said:


> Most tell me that I’m to new to the field and that I should get more experience first.


It's one of the most debated topics on this and other EMS-related forums.
I've been puzzled with the same question for a while and the more people I ask, the less I'm sure about the answer. I personally know EMS educators who told me what Rid said, and I know some who tell me to wait. I know medics who went straight to medic school and who feel it was the right choice, and I know medics who later wished they had more experience before that. Whatever you do, there will be enough people saying you made a bad choice.


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## Ridryder911 (Feb 27, 2009)

I find it amusing that we are "squabbling" about a two year degree and want to "save" the Paramedics for the real thing. Especially since the P.A. and N.P. are usually focused to diagnose and treat those .."B.S." illnesses and they require master degree and now the the Nurse Practitioner will require a Doctorate degree in the near future. 

Again, EMS demonstrates that they have no concept of what medicine really requires or has the basic knowledge of health care. 

Whom is to say what compose of those B.S. calls are really? A person that attended a two week night school or one semester of a Vo-Tech? Would entrust your child health with such a person?For example; if your child was ill and you took them to the clinic and was dx. with otitis media (inner ear infection) and within 24 hours your child was dead because it was really meningitis; your opinion of the need to differentiate would be different. You see one is very simplistic and one is life threatening, unfortunately many of the times they are very similar in presentation in signs and symptoms. 

Here is the problem. As economic problems increase, more and more people tend to not go to see their PCP and follow ups. This will be increasing not only to related economic problems but the baby boomer age increases the number of patients will not only double but triple. Our role not will only have to change but is going to change. EMS will no longer be used just for emergencies. Our whole system will be going through a major overhaul. I predict the name of EMS will even be abolished. As more cities evaluate their budget of what is needed they will explorer what they can to maintain their services. 

Anyone that has real experience in medicine recognizes it is not the medical community that ensures changes, rather those that hold the financial purse. The payers from the insurance companies and government funding are the major predictors of how medicine is performed and provided, and guess what; they are not happy about EMS. 

Paying several hundred dollars to a thousand for a taxi ride; provided by a person that attends less school than a manicurist is not what they want anymore. Even if your service is volunteer; someone pays for it albeit taxes, federal reimbursement, etc. 

If you have not reviewed the new NHTSA Paramedic curriculum; I suggest you do so. One complete section is over Public Health and another focuses upon specific elderly care and those of "special needs". Discussion of working and interacting with social workers and discharge planners will be addressed. 

At this time, when hospitals and especially Emergency Departments are maxed out and there is NO room and waiting times are now an average based upon hours, not minutes.. so you see where the need and where the solution might be aimed at? 

No, Paramedics are NOT qualified to assess and screen the  majority of the illnesses out there and where do you think this places the EMT level? Yes, there will always be the need for the EMT. This again is the debate that many want to accept but the role will be strictly as a first response agency or in remote areas as the only first treatment available. 

The main point, cities will evaluate what will provide for their citizens with the biggest bang and the cheapest buck. Insurance/Medicare would rather pay $500 for an evaluation and minor treatment than $500 for a taxi ride then another $1000 for an unwarranted ER visit. 

The great momentum of the Fire Services attempting to incorporate EMS as a fund raiser and escape to maintain status quo will soon be over. Most of those entering Fire Services never really planned to enter the health care provider profession, and the Fire Service recognizes that it is over its head in this area. With cities eyeing any possibility to save its services, they will have to focus upon just justifying fire protection itself. 

I do NOT believe it is in the far future. My state (which is primarily rural) is reviewing Advanced Paramedic Practitioner programs. American Ambulance Association is definitely excited about Medicare's approval for "consultation" fees. New technology with video and more in-depth medical telemetry will expand the assessment and treatments, the future is endless. 

It will not be "us" that will change it, rather the ones that hold the "purse strings". I do believe we will see a major paradigm shift, and states like Florida, California will be scrambling to change. they may grumble and fight but their hearts will follow the $$$

R/r 911


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## Sasha (Feb 27, 2009)

Mr. Paulie, I can only offer you purely anecdotal experience, but as an EMT who went directly into medic school (And will be finished in a little over two weeks.) and worked in the field while attending medic school, I found that my experience in the field did nothing to enhance or supplement my medic school education. If you've had a good solid Basic course, and you do your work in medic and not play around, you'll be fine going directly into school. I don't regret it.


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## Ms.Medic (Feb 27, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Mr. Paulie, I can only offer you purely anecdotal experience, but as an EMT who went directly into medic school (And will be finished in a little over two weeks.) and worked in the field while attending medic school, I found that my experience in the field did nothing to enhance or supplement my medic school education. If you've had a good solid Basic course, and you do your work in medic and not play around, you'll be fine going directly into school. I don't regret it.





I agree with this. I think you should go for it.


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 27, 2009)

Foxbat said:


> I personally know EMS educators who told me what Rid said, and I know some who tell me to wait.


When evaluating this advice, it is important to know exactly who is giving it.  That means it is important to differentiate between real "educators" and those who are just common "instructors".  Those who have no more education or training than those they are attempting to teach are rarely "educators".  They're just parroting whatever was taught to them with no more understanding than they are giving you.  Those with actual education (as opposed to training) know a little more about educational theory and understand the concepts that maximize the process.  Those who know nothing more than what they learned at their tech school and week long instructor's course generally have very little clue about the concepts of adult education, and are much less qualified to advise you on that process.  Consequently, you get people telling you to do what they did, not knowing any other way.

Do not fall into the trap of putting all paramedic instructors up on a pedestal, as if they hold some magic keys to enlightenment.  The sad truth in this country is that most of them know nothing more about medicine, education, or even EMS than you will after a year of medic experience.  They just, for some reason, are in a classroom instead of an ambulance.  This is one of the things that will be changing with the 2012 requirement for accreditation.  More schools will have educators on staff instead of just a bunch of patches with an instructor card.  Of course, if you are not in an NR state, you will not benefit from that.  And I expect to see states leave the NR system just to avoid having to improve their educational standards.  Very sad.


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## Foxbat (Feb 27, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> When evaluating this advice, it is important to know exactly who is giving it.  That means it is important to differentiate between real "educators" and those who are just common "instructors".


One of the people I got this advice from was our department's former training officer is a medic with a MS degree in biostatistics. I know he's an EMT instructor, but I don't think he teaches medic class.
Unfortunately, for me the question "to wait or not to wait" is irrelevant. I got my EMT about a year ago, and by the time I graduate I will have been EMT for a while anyways. And even then I doubt I'll go for a medic. You see, I'm planning to stay a volunteer because I see people struggling to make a living as medics (let alone EMTs) and for me a medic's wage would be a painful step down from what I get now on my college internships, let alone the wage after graduation. That means I will have little pt. contact, and will lose what I dont' use, and I'd rather be a good EMT than a bad medic. EMT skills should be much easier to retain.


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 27, 2009)

Foxbat said:


> And even then I doubt I'll go for a medic. You see, I'm planning to stay a volunteer because I see people struggling to make a living as medics (let alone EMTs)...


Is there any chance that you see the irony in that statement?

Put differently, do you realise that YOU are the reason why people struggle to make a living in EMS?

And do you care?


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## Foxbat (Feb 27, 2009)

I volunteer for a combination department with a paid crew 24/7. Volunteers, like me, are used:
a) as an additional, third, member of crew;
b) to staff multiple ambulances in case of MCIs or multiple calls in the same time;
c) when paid staff calls in sick, has a day off, etc.
d) stand-by events.

I am not taking anybody's job. If I stop volunteering, nobody benefits.


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## medic417 (Feb 27, 2009)

Foxbat said:


> I volunteer for a combination department with a paid crew 24/7. Volunteers, like me, are used:
> a) as an additional, third, member of crew;
> b) to staff multiple ambulances in case of MCIs or multiple calls in the same time;
> c) when paid staff calls in sick, has a day off, etc.
> ...




Actually then they would hire a third person and possibly a fourth so they could staff 2 ambulances.  
But why buy the cow when the milk is free?


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## Foxbat (Feb 27, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Actually then they would hire a third person and possibly a fourth so they could staff 2 ambulances.
> But why buy the cow when the milk is free?


No service that I know of uses a paid 3rd person. Relatively little benefit for a big increase in budget. As of two ambulances - the general call volume is pretty low as it is... Events which require 2d truck are not common enough to justify hiring 2d crew.


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## jrm818 (Feb 27, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> Is there any chance that you see the irony in that statement?
> 
> Put differently, do you realise that YOU are the reason why people struggle to make a living in EMS?
> 
> And do you care?



Seems to me by that same logic that every EMT or medic who is currently employed for a low wage is just as bad (I bet almost every one of the paid people on this board thinks they're underpaid, and that EMS is in general).  The logic of "volunteers hurt paid people" is that if there were no one to work for free, the ambulances would be forced to pay people.

well...if there were no-one to work for the current low wages in EMS, ambulances would be forced to pay more.

The real issue is that people (including me) _can_ volunteer.  If you want EMS to be a paid gig the value of EMS to the population needs to be increased, the value needs to be conspicuous, and it needs to be harder to get into EMS.

You see less volunteer doctors because the requirements to become a doctor are much higher and they are valued more.  Thus there are very few people willing to work for free, and people aren't as reluctant to pay.

Of course it is an interesting idea that EMS is the only profession with volunteer professionals.  Ever hear of a free clinic, or a lawyer working pro-bono?  More rare perhaps, but I dont hear anyone claiming pro-bono lawyers are the downfall of the lawyering profession.  If you want to place the blame for the low EMS wages somewhere, there are more important places to look than volunteers.

It hasn't escaped me that the people lambasting volunteers also advocate for increased education....which is all fine and well.  I would argue that scapegoating volunteers are the "root" of the problem is counterproductive...takes focus off the issues of the value people assign to EMS and educational standards.  It is not the case that simply eliminating volunteers will raise the standards in EMS.  It is probably the case that raising the standards will minimize the number of volunteers, except where volunteers are truly needed.  keep the horse in front of the carriage...


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## medic417 (Feb 27, 2009)

jrm818 said:


> Of course it is an interesting idea that EMS is the only profession with volunteer professionals.  Ever hear of a free clinic, or a lawyer working pro-bono?  More rare perhaps, but I dont hear anyone claiming pro-bono lawyers are the downfall of the lawyering profession.  If you want to place the blame for the low EMS wages somewhere, there are more important places to look than volunteers.
> 
> ...



That is like comparing grapes to to a Texas black diamond watermelon.  The minor amount done free is basically none compared to the amount given away in EMS.  All those willing to work in EMS for free do hold it finacially back.  In fighting to get pay raises it is often thrown in our face that this community or that one is handled by volunteers.  

Yes education needs to increase to make it harder for people to enter the field and give away their services free.


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## ffemt8978 (Feb 27, 2009)

medic417 said:


> That is like comparing grapes to to a Texas black diamond watermelon.  The minor amount done free is basically none compared to the amount given away in EMS.  All those willing to work in EMS for free do hold it finacially back.  In fighting to get pay raises it is often thrown in our face that this community or that one is handled by volunteers.
> 
> Yes education needs to increase to make it harder for people to enter the field and give away their services free.



And when you make it harder for people to volunteer, many communities will lose what little access they have to these services...or have to travel farther/wait longer for them.

How many small towns have lost their local doctors offices in recent years?  How many of these communities still have some type of EMS, either in their community or relatively close?  

How will making EMS an entirely paid profession bring rapid medical care to these communities?  How many medics will have to be trained to provide care to every community that currently has volunteers?  

How many educational programs will have to be created to train all of these medics, so that we can avoid the medic mill and have truly educated people?  And who is going pay for it all?

It's easy to say that the local communities can fund EMS if they truly want, but who is going to fund the educational programs required to train all of these people?  If you make the students pay for their education before they even get a job, they are going to expect higher wages from the community that employs them to offset their educational costs.  At some point, the community is going to draw the line and say enough is enough.


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## Ridryder911 (Feb 27, 2009)

.._Your child is severely injured, and you await in the local Emergency Department. Finally the awaited "expert" arrives. The neurosurgeon enters the door. He apologizes for the delay; he exclaims that his delay was because "he was working his real job" at Best Buy as a computer technician. He profanes " I do this every so often because the hospitals get so busy and I feel that I could help out; some way".  You ask about credentials and explains how when he attended a foreign medical school that from start to finish it was a grilling two years long; but hey he passed the same boards as the others!.. "that's all that matters; right?" Now; let's get your child into the O.R. and start drilling! _

Sure, this would never occur for several reasons. The same reasons it should NEVER occur in EMS. 

R/r 911


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 27, 2009)

jrm818 said:


> well...if there were no-one to work for the current low wages in EMS, ambulances would be forced to pay more.


Completely separate issue, which you bring up later, which is education.  For now, most people in EMS are getting paid exactly what they are worth, if not more, for the "education" they have.  Until they elevate the educational level, asking for more money is a joke.  And before we do that, we first have to establish that we are worth any money at all.  Volunteering is the primary stumbling block to that seminal step.



> The real issue is that people (including me) _can_ volunteer.


That highlights two other problems.  First, that too much of EMS is done simply because, "I can".  And second, because too many people in EMS think it is all about them, and not the community or the patient.



> You see less volunteer doctors because the requirements to become a doctor are much higher and they are valued more.  Thus there are very few people willing to work for free, and people aren't as reluctant to pay.


"Less" is a pretty significant understatement, don't you think?  But yes, if we had an entry level educational requirement that took more than three weeks to complete, there would be a LOT fewer people willing to volunteer.



> Of course it is an interesting idea that EMS is the only profession with volunteer professionals.  Ever hear of a free clinic, or a lawyer working pro-bono?  More rare perhaps, but I dont hear anyone claiming pro-bono lawyers are the downfall of the lawyering profession.


That's because, as often as this stinker is tossed out there, it is simply not even close to a valid analogy.  Professionals who volunteer is very different from volunteers who play professional.



> If you want to place the blame for the low EMS wages somewhere, there are more important places to look than volunteers.


Wrong.  Volunteers comprise over one half of all EMS providers.  That means more than half of the people in the field are telling America that we have no value.  Spin it how you like, but there is no more immediately significant problem facing the profession.



> It hasn't escaped me that the people lambasting volunteers also advocate for increased education....which is all fine and well.  I would argue that scapegoating volunteers are the "root" of the problem is counterproductive...takes focus off the issues of the value people assign to EMS and educational standards.


Wrong again.  I expect that the people with the intelligence and vision to move the profession forward have the ability to walk and chew gum at the same time.  There is no reason why multiple issues cannot be addressed simultaneously.



> It is not the case that simply eliminating volunteers will raise the standards in EMS.  It is probably the case that raising the standards will minimize the number of volunteers, except where volunteers are truly needed.  keep the horse in front of the carriage...


Best observation so far.  And the volunteer issue will indeed have to be solved through education.  We are not going to talk any of these selfish people into giving up their hobby for the good of society, anymore than you can convince Michael Vick that dogfighting is wrong.  I simply maintain that we do not have to limit ourselves to one issue or one avenue of resolution at a time.  They all tie together.


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## medic417 (Feb 27, 2009)

ffemt8978 said:


> And when you make it harder for people to volunteer, many communities will lose what little access they have to these services...or have to travel farther/wait longer for them.
> 
> How many small towns have lost their local doctors offices in recent years?  How many of these communities still have some type of EMS, either in their community or relatively close?
> 
> ...




The medics are out there.  With pay more would be willing to make themselves available.  

Other medical professions pay for their own education either out of pocket or education loans/grants.  Why should EMS be different?

Communitys get prioritys straight no matter how poor an area and EMS can get funded.  If you already have the equipment for volunteers all you are added is salarys.  So it is not near the leap so many say.


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## medic417 (Feb 27, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> .._Your child is severely injured, and you await in the local Emergency Department. Finally the awaited "expert" arrives. The neurosurgeon enters the door. He apologizes for the delay; he exclaims that his delay was because "he was working his real job" at Best Buy as a computer technician. He profanes " I do this every so often because the hospitals get so busy and I feel that I could help out; some way".  You ask about credentials and explains how when he attended a foreign medical school that from start to finish it was a grilling two years long; but hey he passed the same boards as the others!.. "that's all that matters; right?" Now; let's get your child into the O.R. and start drilling! _
> 
> Sure, this would never occur for several reasons. The same reasons it should NEVER occur in EMS.
> 
> R/r 911



Excellent illustration.  If a person can not get the point of that illustration they are just ignoring it on purpose or ignorant.


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## ffemt8978 (Feb 27, 2009)

medic417 said:


> The medics are out there.  With pay more would be willing to make themselves available.
> 
> Other medical professions pay for their own education either out of pocket or education loans/grants.  Why should EMS be different?
> 
> Communitys get prioritys straight no matter how poor an area and EMS can get funded.  If you already have the equipment for volunteers all you are added is salarys.  So it is not near the leap so many say.



Not entirely true.  Just because you have equipment for volunteers doesn't mean you have the equipment/infrastructure necessary to support paid medics.  Most volunteer agencies don't have sleeping quarters therefore you would need to spend money to remodel/acquire a base for them.  Most volunteer agencies are not ALS, therefore you would have to spend the money to get the necessary equipment like 12 leads, drugs, intubation equipment, etc...to allow them to do their job correctly.  So you're adding a lot more than just salaries, and that is not even taking into consideration things like unemployment insurance, insurance coverage, pensions, and the like.  

And do you truly believe that there are currently enough medics out there to provide paid ALS coverage to every part of the country, and that all that is holding them back is salaries?  :wacko:


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## medic417 (Feb 27, 2009)

ffemt8978 said:


> Not entirely true.  Just because you have equipment for volunteers doesn't mean you have the equipment/infrastructure necessary to support paid medics.  Most volunteer agencies don't have sleeping quarters therefore you would need to spend money to remodel/acquire a base for them.  Most volunteer agencies are not ALS, therefore you would have to spend the money to get the necessary equipment like 12 leads, drugs, intubation equipment, etc...to allow them to do their job correctly.  So you're adding a lot more than just salaries, and that is not even taking into consideration things like unemployment insurance, insurance coverage, pensions, and the like.
> 
> And do you truly believe that there are currently enough medics out there to provide paid ALS coverage to every part of the country, and that all that is holding them back is salaries?  :wacko:



Look at the numbers of certified Paramedics nationwide and compare that to how many are working in the field.  Yes there are a lot that have left the field to support their familys.  Also I know several hold out volunteer services that are staffed entirly by volunteers so if they went paid theres even more available.  

Sleeping quarters could be a cot in the station.  Most stations have a bathroom.  Then slowly upgrade using the paid people while waiting for calls.  

As to supplys Many bigger citys give away or will sell cheaply the older but still good working equipment.  Drugs for the most part are not that expensive.  Take morphine less than $0.30 a vial.  There are only a couple of have to have drugs that are expensive.  Honestly you could upgrade any BLS ambulance to ALS with about $20,000.  Would not be MICU but would be a huge improvement.  

Salaries include those related expenses.  Also salary could be phased in.


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 28, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Sleeping quarters could be a cot in the station.  Most stations have a bathroom.  Then slowly upgrade using the paid people while waiting for calls.


Or they could use the intelligence and common sense that God gave them to be a little creative and figure out that, just because the firemen work 24 hour shifts does not mean that we have to continue that tradition.  Work out a shift arrangement that doesn't require sleeping quarters.  How hard is that?

As for the money, don't get me started.  Did you see the budgets that were just passed by the Congress to address pig odors and Frisbee golf courses?  Don't tell me this country lacks the funds to pay for EMS.  It's a lie.  And don't tell me your community doesn't either.  They manage to pay the teachers and school bus drivers, the city hall janitors and mechanics, the water department and street department workers without volunteers.  Nobody picks up garbage for free in your community.  So puhleeze... it's all a lie.


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## PapaBear434 (Feb 28, 2009)

I guess I don't have a huge deal with EMT volunteers.  Medics have far to much training and education, though, that I don't think they should only be able to find Volunteer gigs.  And this is speaking as a current EMT and future medic.  I can draw that line, because to me it's like someone volunteering at a children's hospital while working on their RN in order to get experience (as my wife did, for instance.)  

And as mentioned, there is no way you'd be able to staff all-medic crews outside of major metropolitan areas.  Hell, even cities are being hit hard right now.

Here is the big issue, and I hope you guys, volunteers and paid medics alike, can agree;  The biggest problem with getting paid, and what led to people feeling the NEED to volunteer, is because of the nature of our business.  The public tends to not think about us, firefighters, or police until they need them.  It's easy to not think twice when it comes time to slash the budget to go ahead and take from emergency services, because people have this idea that we don't do that much and they'll never need us.  

The people in charge would rather spend money better spent on us on things like flowers along the freeway, because beautification projects are more widely seen by the public than the paramedic that shows up at five in the morning to deal with someone's grandma after she fell down the back steps.  

After 9/11, fire and police got federal funding like they've never seen before in the form of federal grants (I have no idea if EMS divisions got anything substantial.)  Unfortunately, that "hero" thing only lasted for so long, and soon the budgets began to get slashed almost worse than they were before.  People don't think about it until they need it.  It's a flaw in the human condition, really.

Problem is, when it IS needed, and there is no one there, you are left in the lurch.  People started noticing that, but not many.  Just a few that noticed that people were dying because of the simple lack of access.  So people started volunteering to cover that gap.  

Of course, then you had municipalities all over the country saying "Hey, wow, this is cool.  We don't even have to pay them!"  And the condition got worse as they slashed the budget even more.

Yes, my and others volunteer activity may hurt the overall situation concerning payment.  But the alternative is that entire areas of the country would have little to no EMS coverage, and that would simply be unacceptable.  

Thus the catch-22.  Paid medics hate the fact that people volunteer because they can't make a decent wage and more quality people aren't attracted to the profession.  Conversely, volunteers are not willing to let areas go uncovered because cheap jerks in charge won't reallocate funding from tourism advertising or whatever local idiocy is siphoning the funds.

Volunteerism isn't the cause so much as it's a symptom.


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## medic417 (Feb 28, 2009)

Bear the problem with your theory is that the public sees an ambulance and they do not realize that the volly BLS is any different care than the Paramedic MICU.  So yes EMT's as volunteers lead to lower wages for all levels.  

You mention Paramedics not really vollunteering well in my area until our revolt almost everyone that volunteered were Paramedics.  But guess what just informing the community that there was about to be no coverage led to multiple communitys and countys finding the money.  Now my area is one of the highesy paid areas with even basics making at least $13.  

The money is there, my area is one of the most poverty stricken nation wide but well shifting prioritys they found he funds needed.  

Now what has been the affect of paid service?  Much quicker response times because we are at the station not coming from home.  So patient outcomes have drastically improved.  Another major ripple effect has been that paid services that already existed went from making barely above minimum wage now pay a good wage.  Some are now paying Paramedics over $25 an hour with great benefits.  So low and behold just doing a way with volunteers has led to decent wages.  

Now if education comes into play we can see even better wages.

Oh and guess what most of these former volunteer services only staffed 1 ambulance.  Now that they are paid they have more ambulances.  1 county that had 2 ambulances when volunteer now staffs 5 spread around the county staffed ALS 24/7.  So again non lost ambulances and most actually increased coverage.


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## PapaBear434 (Feb 28, 2009)

I'll concede that if you make a big public display of "no coverage," the public outrage will be enough to ride into a paid job.  But hear me out here.

My service has been all volunteer since the early 40's.  They pride themselves on being not only one of the oldest organized EMS services, but the oldest volunteer service out there.  The deal that they usually do is that if you go to medic, they'll pay for your schooling, all of it, in exchange for 4 shifts a month.  They give benefits around the city in the way of discounts at stores and restaurants, equipment reimbursement so you can buy your own, and other little perks.  Yeah, it's not much, but four only four shifts a month it's not a bad deal.

Now, there are others that do more than that.  Like me, going to school and trying to get all my proctor hours in, I tend to do more than that.  

The service has paid medics, however, to ensure that every single ALS call WILL have a medic on hand on either the ambulance itself or via a zone car that is dispatched at the same time as a Basic unit.  To date, I have never had an ALS call where a paid medic or at least a volunteer EMT-I (on their way to medic, usually) has not been on hand for the patient.  And if all that is on hand is an EMT-I, the medic is usually enroute too baring some major case somewhere else. 

The medics... Well, I'm not sure WHAT they get paid.  But it has to be decent for four twelve hour shifts a week and they don't work any other job.  

I'm just saying there are ways to balance out the volunteers that just want to help and pad the numbers that the lack of Medics leave, and the educated medics that can truly take care of the big problems.


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 28, 2009)

PapaBear434 said:


> Yes, my and others volunteer activity may hurt the overall situation concerning payment.  But the alternative is that entire areas of the country would have little to no EMS coverage, and that would simply be unacceptable.  <snip>  ...volunteers are not willing to let areas go uncovered because cheap jerks in charge won't reallocate funding from tourism advertising or whatever local idiocy is siphoning the funds.


Okay, you seriously think that if there were no volunteers, the community leaders would simply throw up their hands and say, _"Oh darn!  I guess we just won't have EMS anymore"_?  You don't really believe that, do you?  Come on, man!

What did you just say they do when they need money for something?  You said they take money from EMS.  Well guess what; when they suddenly need money for paramedics, they will find it the very same way.  Or they will throw down with surrounding communities or the county to jointly fund a service.  Or they'll find a federal grant.  Or they'll raise taxes.

Ever seen someone who hasn't made a car payment in three months and hears that the tow truck is on it's way to his house?  He finds money really fast!  He hocks his television and stereo, he borrows from his dad, or he gets a payday loan.  But he gets that money because the urgency of the situation suddenly inspires him to get creative and do so.  Your community will do the same.  They always do.


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## PapaBear434 (Feb 28, 2009)

Yeah, I'm sure they'd get a paid paramedic service.  It would be inadequately paid, funded, and staffed, but they'd be paid.  

It amazes me that we can decry the populace because no one cares anymore, but when you DO find an area where people just want to help we still find ways to say that they're destroying civilization as we know it.


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## medic417 (Feb 28, 2009)

PapaBear434 said:


> Yeah, I'm sure they'd get a paid paramedic service.  It would be inadequately paid, funded, and staffed, but they'd be paid.
> 
> It amazes me that we can decry the populace because no one cares anymore, but when you DO find an area where people just want to help we still find ways to say that they're destroying civilization as we know it.



Did you not read my post?  One of if not the poorest areas in the nation.  We went paid and are actually one of the higher paid in the nation thats not big city.   So if we can find away your community can. 

Your tradition is what is wrong with EMS.  We do most of what we do because thats the way its always been done not because its whats best for the community.  We do things that have been proven bad in medicine because thats the way we always have done it.  It is time we forget tradition and start doing what needs done to provide our communitys with the best.


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 28, 2009)

PapaBear434 said:


> It amazes me that we can decry the populace because no one cares anymore, but when you DO find an area where people just want to help we still find ways to say that they're destroying civilization as we know it.


This whole "want to help" people thing is the biggest lie in EMS.  Funny how few of these people ever seek any way to "help" their community that doesn't involve lights and sirens.  I've seen several volunteer departments shut down over the years.  And not once have I seen any of their departing members go volunteer to pick up trash, wash police cars, pave roads, mow the grass in the medians and parks, mop the floors at city hall, or drive school buses for free.  It rarely has anything to do with "helping people" or "giving back" to the community.  It's about a cool hobby that makes you (the generic "you", not you personally) feel like a hero.

By the way, they PAY people to do all those other jobs.  Where do they find the money?


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## PapaBear434 (Feb 28, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> By the way, they PAY people to do all those other jobs.  Where do they find the money?



Simply put, people are willing to pay for it because it inconveniences them.  Their streets being covered in garbage drives them nuts, because it's dirty and smells bad.  However, a grandma falling down the stairs isn't that big of a deal, because it's not THEIR grandma falling do the stairs.  Until it is, of course.  Then they are pissed off because the ambulance took twenty minutes to get there and will write a nasty letter to the editor to that effect.

I am not going to make any apologies for what I am or what I am doing.  I am bettering myself, my community, and yes I am volunteering my way 
up the chain to do so.  I am not willing to be the martyr you guys want me to be and be the one to fight whatever war you want us noobies to fight.  I get that you've been at it a long time, and you have your ideas of what needs to change.  For the record, I agree with most of what you say.  But what I disagree with is how you seem to want to get there.   You seem to want all unpaids to just go away, let people start getting hurt and sick without EMS support, and force people to face the need for EMS through threat of punishment (ie: they won't get help when they need it.)

Oh, and by the way, I DID help out the communities I lived in long before this.  I was a police officer once upon a time.  I worked security and organization for special events.  I helped plant trees for almost ten years along side roadways in Michigan to prevent top soil erosion.  I've helped, for free, to fix farmers old broken down equipment and tractors that they couldn't afford to repair but couldn't afford to do without.

Don't you dare tell me I do what I do because just I'm attracted to flashing lights.  Yes, it's fun to drive fast with the wail going.  Yes, it's good to actually feel appreciated for your work for once, as opposed to when I was an officer and caught nothing but grief from almost every call I was on.  But if I wasn't choosing this as a career path, it would be nursing, or something else where I could feel like I was helping people when they needed it most.


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 28, 2009)

PapaBear434 said:


> Don't you dare tell me I do what I do because just I'm attracted to flashing lights.


And don't you dare accuse me of attacking you personally when I made it quite clear that I was not.  This thread isn't about you.  It's about advising the original poster with the best possible facts we can give him.  That's what he asked us for.

That said, you yourself have admitted that you are doing this for selfish reasons that are based almost exclusively on what you want for you, not your community.  I did not put those words into your mouth.  And I respect you for admitting that much.

I'm not asking every volunteer to quit.  I'm not stupid.  I know that it won't happen until it is mandated by law because, like you, 99 percent of all volunteers are in it for themselves.  And unlike you, they refuse to even consider that they could do more for their community by quitting than by continuing to volunteer.  They would not quit unless forced to by law because they enjoy their little hobby too much.  I'm simply spelling out the reality of the situation.  Just because I cannot fix the problem does not mean that we should sweep it under the rug and pretend that it does not exist, justifying it with lies of no money and helping people.  The first step in recovery is to admit we have a problem.  This is a very big problem, and I refuse to deny it any longer.


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## PapaBear434 (Feb 28, 2009)

See, you view me as selfish.  I don't see it that way.  I can do the most to help people by becoming a medic.  But I can not afford school.  So, I do volunteer work under the contract that they will pay for my school in exchange for my time.  

Now, I could do like others have done, and work a side job and pay for school without actually getting experience in the profession I plan on working in.  But as my wife works and makes more money than I ever will in EMS, I decided to be the stay-at-home dad while I go to school.  Thus, the ten or so shifts a month (only four are required) plus three days a week in school I put forth aren't a huge detriment to my home life and my two girls while I put myself through to be a medic.

You view my quest to be a medic as selfish, because I am doing it by different means than you did.  I'm sorry, but I cannot afford to work a full time job, pay for daycare, and pay for school.  Nor am I willing to put both my young girls in day care for a good chunk of their childhood.

My system pays you once as you're a medic.  They pay for your school until then.  Why is this a big deal?  My system actually does what's right by medics while still manning one of the largest squads in the country, and still lets the trauma junkies get their kicks with lights and siren while remaining useful to the community.  

Are you truly so myopic that you refuse to acknowledge any view but your own?


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 28, 2009)

PapaBear434 said:


> You view my quest to be a medic as selfish, because I am doing it by different means than you did.


You're still making assumptions about my motives here.  I did it for the same reason that 99 percent of everyone else who joins EMS.  It looked like a fun and exciting way to be a hero.  But I was sixteen years old too.  And I grew up.  And the only thing I "volunteered" for to get school money was Vietnam, but I still got paid for it.


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## VentMedic (Feb 28, 2009)

I would hate to see where all the other professions would be if their members had found as many excuses as those in EMS. It seems to be its own little colony that just passes these excuses around to each other decade after decade. I know many single mothers and fathers that managed to go for what they wanted because they knew it could give them a better paying *career* and benefit healthcare or whatever profession they chose. 



PapaBear434 said:


> My system actually does what's right by medics while still manning one of the largest squads in the country, and still lets the trauma junkies get their kicks with lights and siren while remaining useful to the community.


 
How are the medics to be taken seriously when you have "trauma junkies" distracting from something called patient care? A squad or company is only as strong as its weakest link and that doesn't have to mean titles such as EMT(P)s but rather the attitudes.


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## Ridryder911 (Feb 28, 2009)

Hence the problem what the majority of volunteers usually fail to see. They are stroked and cuddled to self feed their ego. What would occur if these volunteers were only allowed to be able to serve an amount of time until a professional system was to be developed? Let's say five years. How many would still volunteer to see that a true system were developed; knowing they had to prepare their community in establish funding and operations? 

As we are quite aware of there are several communities that are remote and scarcely populated that a professional service may never occur. Those are the ones I honor; but for communities that can afford and refuse to do so based upon other factors is being neglect. 

As mentioned by several posters that are volunteers is the basis of tradition. In lieu of providing professional services they much rather feed their own self satisfaction. If these "good hearted" citizens were really concerned would they not want to ensure the best care possible? Of course the leaders will never consider anything else if they do not know the system is flawed? Do you think there would ever be any mention otherwise? 

I am glad to see that the new revised NHTSA curriculum and also the required transitional bridge course and re-testing of the NREMT. This is for many reasons. Obviously to increase the knowledge level of the basic EMT and Advanced level and with this possibly eliminate those that want to pursue another hobby and to achieve "warm fuzzy feelings" by performing medical care. 

I always the same question to volunteers. What are you really doing for the system? Are you truly enhancing patient care or are you just satisfying your self needs? 

Remember, if you are not helping the system; you are just part of the problem. 

R/r 911


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## medic417 (Feb 28, 2009)

I do have to say this has been the most pleasant discussion of the Volly vs paid I have seen. Nice to see the input of experienced people w/o all the name calling.  

VENT LOVE this statement of yours: "I would hate to see where all the other professions would be if their members had found as many excuses as those in EMS. It seems to be its own little colony that just passes these excuses around to each other decade after decade. I know many single mothers and fathers that managed to go for what they wanted because they knew it could give them a better paying career and benefit healthcare or whatever profession they chose. "


That point and the illustration of a brain surgeon by Rid should be enough to end any debate.


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## PapaBear434 (Feb 28, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> I always the same question to volunteers. What are you really doing for the system? Are you truly enhancing patient care or are you just satisfying your self needs?
> 
> Remember, if you are not helping the system; you are just part of the problem.
> 
> R/r 911



You are ignoring the operative part of the description of my system.

They use volunteers, and TRAIN THEM TO MEDIC by sending them to college, at which point they start to pay you.  How is this a bad thing?  It's training people, FOR FREE.  It has a large staff of people to help with a large call volume.  It keeps more medics on the road than almost any other system out there. 

Yes, there are those who will never advance past EMT-B, and just want to drive the ambulance and take vitals.  Who cares?  They aren't doing any harm, and the medics don't have to do it.  They can concentrate on doing the real work of helping the folks.  

Why is it that you guys can only see your way and no other?  Would you see all volunteers kicked out of hospitals?  No more Candy Stripers, orderlies, or people who come and take care of old folks in nursing homes?  I mean, those are pretty nasty jobs at times, right?  Someone should be getting paid good money to empty those bed pans and clean up the sheets!  

Let the Basic volunteers run around and play hero.  So long as they aren't hurting anyone, doing their job, and acting professional, what is the big deal so long as the medics on board are getting paid a living wage?

Right now, you senior guys are coming off as bitter old coots that seemingly get no enjoyment out of your work anymore.  We get it, you want more respect and pay.  So do I.  But if you wanted the respect of a doctor, maybe you should have applied to med school.  

This is the only feasible way that I'm going to get my degree and paramedic certification, and do something with my life that I see as very worthwhile.  What you guys are saying is that since I can't afford it on my own and I'm not willing to take out a loan in an economic depression, that I am somehow destroying your little vision of society.

Sorry, guys.  I'm doing this my way.  This system isn't perfect, but I can't see why you guys have such a hatred of it.  The level of care and education is increased, the number of medics is increased, and the numbers of lesser qualified but still qualified people on hand able to deal with emergencies is increased.  

And you know what?  By the time I'm done, it won't matter HOW I did it.  I'm still going to be a medic, with all the same credentials and certifications as you, and I'll likely be getting paid the same as well.  Go figure.

As said, I admire your guys goals, but greatly disagree with your methods.  You do your cause no good by saying everyone involved with the system that isn't you is killing it.  All you do is alienate them.  You discourage and degrade folks that, even for all the hero-play, just want to help, you aren't exactly pushing them to medic.  You are just making them feel unappreciated and unwanted, and they'll ultimately leave.

That all said, I'm done with this debate.  For all your guys wailing at the heavens, I don't see many campaigns for education or trying to get people to organize and tell the governments to pay for an all-medic program.  No, all you guys are doing is going on a forum and telling people they should quit because they are useless if they don't do it exactly your way.  Nothing is going to change your mind, and the same can be said on my end.  Whatever the case, we are all in the same boat whether we get paid or not, and do the same job.  

I'll see you on the road.


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 28, 2009)

PapaBear434 said:


> Let the Basic volunteers run around and play hero.  So long as they aren't hurting anyone, doing their job, and acting professional, what is the big deal so long as the medics on board are getting paid a living wage?


Very few basics would even have a clue that they were hurting someone.  That is the problem with the basic level.  It's just enough knowledge to be dangerous.



> Right now, you senior guys are coming off as bitter old coots that seemingly get no enjoyment out of your work anymore.  We get it, you want more respect and pay.


No, you do not get it.  Vent, Rid, and I all get paid quite well because we have advanced our educations and found our "special purpose" in the profession.  You vollies make the mistake of projecting your selfishness upon everyone else, assuming that we only care about ourselves as you do.  This is not the case.  There are plenty of us out here who are fighting for the profession, not for our own little piece of the pie.  If it advances the profession as a whole, then I don't care how it affects me personally.  Neither does Rid or Vent or medic417.  The difference between you and us is that we have been where you are at and have grown professionally along the way, developing the insight that we currently have into reality.  You, on the other hand, know nothing but what you currently have.  It's all you know.  And because it suits YOUR personal needs, you are either unwilling to rock the boat.



> Sorry, guys.  I'm doing this my way.  This system isn't perfect, but I can't see why you guys have such a hatred of it.


Quoted to illustrate the spot-on validity of my last statements.



> And you know what?  By the time I'm done, it won't matter HOW I did it.  I'm still going to be a medic, with all the same credentials and certifications as you, and I'll likely be getting paid the same as well.  Go figure.


Man, you just dig yourself deeper.  This is the clearest illustration so far of how little you understand about the profession you have chosen.  If you think everyone with a patch is equal, then you have a very long way to go to become a professional.  This, however, is very typical rhetoric of paramedic students and new graduates.  And too many never get a clue to understand differently.  That's why they get a 6 month paramedic patch, and then spend the rest of their careers completing only the bare minimum requirements of CEUs to maintain it.  They think their patch is all they'll ever need to be a good medic.  The patch does not make the medic.  It is how you practice that makes the medic.   I have faith that you will outgrow that attitude and become better than they are.



> You do your cause no good by saying everyone involved with the system that isn't you is killing it.


And you do yourself a disservice by misquoting the things we say, as you have done several times in this discussion.  I'll say it again: it isn't about us.  It isn't about you.  It is about the profession and the patients we serve.  Until you are able to see that, you are not a professional.



> All you do is alienate them.


How concerned are you about alienating people who are screwing up your world?  Do you lose sleep over it?



> You discourage and degrade folks that, even for all the hero-play, just want to help, you aren't exactly pushing them to medic.  You are just making them feel unappreciated and unwanted, and they'll ultimately leave.


Excellent!  It's called tough love.  The weak, with the delicate "feelings" aren't cut out for this profession.  The strong will not only survive, but they will excel in order to prove to us and to themselves that they have what it takes.  Those will be the future professionals of our field, not the ones who went away crying because they didn't get enough hugs.



> That all said, I'm done with this debate.


You said that before.  And I will reply the same way again; it's your loss.



> For all your guys wailing at the heavens, I don't see many campaigns for education or trying to get people to organize and tell the governments to pay for an all-medic program.


Well then you obviously are not much to keep up with the current news and trends in EMS.  It's happening all around us.  States have gone to degree requirements for entry level medics, and more already have plans to follow.  The NREMT is moving quickly to weed out all the fly by night tech schools.  Communities everywhere are disbanding their volly squads to implement full-time professional services, often with fire department EMS.  Change is in the air.  The snowball is rolling downhill, and the momentum is gaining.  It is only those who isolate themselves in their own limited surroundings who fail to see it.



> No, all you guys are doing is going on a forum and telling people they should quit because they are useless if they don't do it exactly your way.


So we should avoid telling the truth because people like you find it uncomfortable?  This refusal to even consider the greater good is what is holding us back.  You want to "help people"?  Nonsense.  You don't even want to "help" your own profession.  You only want to help yourself.  But I suppose that you can rest with an easy conscience knowing that you are in the majority.


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## sir.shocksalot (Feb 28, 2009)

Quick, get the cor drugs ready, this thread doesn't have long to live.


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## medic417 (Feb 28, 2009)

sir.shocksalot  "Quick, get the cor drugs ready, this thread doesn't have long to live." 

This is a productive discusion of various opinions.  To lock it would show an unwillingness to consider matters that are uncomfortable for some and I am sure the mods are not that way.  They value an educational discussion of differing views such as this.


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## sir.shocksalot (Feb 28, 2009)

medic417 said:


> sir.shocksalot  "Quick, get the cor drugs ready, this thread doesn't have long to live."
> 
> This is a productive discusion of various opinions.  To lock it would show an unwillingness to consider matters that are uncomfortable for some and I am sure the mods are not that way.  They value an educational discussion of differing views such as this.


Unfortunately some people are expressing their opinions a little too aggressively.


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 28, 2009)

Well at least they are expressing an opinion on the topic at hand, and not derailing the thread with their opinions of the thread itself.


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## Foxbat (Feb 28, 2009)

I don't really care about the argessiveness, there are some far more volly-bashing places out there. It's just this topic has been beaten to death on this forum alone for about 1000 times and I did not see anyone change their mind in the process.
For the record, I'm sorry I brought this topic up. My only excuse is that original topic (waiting of going straight to medic school) is about as beaten to death as this one.


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## medic417 (Feb 28, 2009)

sir.shocksalot said:


> Unfortunately some people are expressing their opinions a little too aggressively.




I disagree even the rude volunteer supportor was not that aggressive.  And the professionals pointed out their views w/o attacking.


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## PapaBear434 (Feb 28, 2009)

AJ, I'm just going to correct a few things.

My medic school is not a patch factory.  It's a four year medic program, and ends with a BS in paramedic medicine.  

And "tough love" is great for the folks that are already in the profession, as in "already medic level."  But "tough love" becomes "real ****ish behavior" when you are trying to attract people to the profession.  

I'm very happy that you, Rid, and the others have found your niche and make such good money.  I would like to get there as well.  But without a way to pay for school, I don't see how I'm suppose to do that.  I imagine my pharm class would be pretty upset if I didn't pay and just showed up anyway.  

I am not selfish, as I would LOVE for everyone to get paid.  But I need to work my way up to medic first, and I can't afford school.  What would you have me do?   Just give up and go bag groceries instead?  Here is a way for me, and others, to get a degree and a quality education, the very one you claim is so very vital to make a good medic.  Even if it is just a start on the education, which I am sure will expand as time goes on and one furthers their knowledge, it's a good way to get started without putting yourself into the poor house doing so.

So, I ask you again:  How would you propose I get my degree, if not like this?


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## PapaBear434 (Feb 28, 2009)

medic417 said:


> I disagree even the rude volunteer supportor was not that aggressive.  And the professionals pointed out their views w/o attacking.



It's hard to restrain ALL bile and vitriol when you are being told from multiple angles that you are everything that is wrong with the world.


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 28, 2009)

Man, I'd hate to be your physician when it comes time to give you bad news.  You're not particularly good about accepting things you don't want to hear.


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## Sasha (Feb 28, 2009)

> But without a way to pay for school, I don't see how I'm suppose to do that.



Are you not eligible for grants, and loans? I've got two loans and a very small grant to significantly decrease the out of pocket expense.


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## PapaBear434 (Feb 28, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Are you not eligible for grants, and loans? I've got two loans and a very small grant to significantly decrease the out of pocket expense.



Even if I was eliglble (was turned down for many, and the ones I did get barely bought a book), wouldn't I be called a drain on society by many others for leaching grants when there was a perfectly good program to give me my education in exchange for work provided?  

It's a matter of perspective.  To some, I'm a drain on the system.  To others, I'm exchanging fair work for fair compensation.  

Then again, the reason I was never eligible was because we had a crap load of money tied up in investments.  Now that this money is largely been flushed down the toilet, maybe I'm eligible now.

*AJ Hidell*


> Man, I'd hate to be your physician when it comes time to give you bad news. You're not particularly good about accepting things you don't want to hear.



Thing is, I'm sure his statements would be based on medical findings and not personal opinion and bias.  If he walked in and told me I had cancer, I'd be mortified and distraught, but I'd probably believe him.  If he walked and told me I was ugly and those of German decent were the reason he can't afford a Beamer, I'd be a little less likely to take him seriously.

Look, I respect your experience and knowledge, but I'm not willing to accept that I'm destroying OUR profession because I am finding a way to pay for my schooling that doesn't include me putting myself into crippling debt in a very tough economic time.

I ask you again:  How would YOU recommend I get my schooling without sacrificing my daughters' upbringing or my financial future?


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## Ridryder911 (Feb 28, 2009)

PapaBear434 said:


> I ask you again:  How would YOU recommend I get my schooling without sacrificing my daughters' upbringing or my financial future?



I worked over 100 hours a week and did it. Never once with completion of four degrees did I ever take a student loan out and yes, I had a family, mortgage and no family to depend upon. I remember not even going home for 6 weeks straight. Nobody accelerates or advances without sacrifices. It is deciding what sacrifices makes the difference.  

What if an employer offered a contract for school loans? Something I am pushing for. Personally, I refused them but it would be an alternative to loans. Also, I would not consider you "sucking" off society if you did proceed and give back as in they way of working and putting back into the economy. 

Again, how important is the EMS profession and as a profession is to you? 

R/r 911


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## Sasha (Feb 28, 2009)

> Even if I was eliglble (was turned down for many, and the ones I did get barely bought a book), wouldn't I be called a drain on society by many others for leaching grants when there was a perfectly good program to give me my education in exchange for work provided?
> 
> It's a matter of perspective. To some, I'm a drain on the system. To others, I'm exchanging fair work for fair compensation.
> 
> Then again, the reason I was never eligible was because we had a crap load of money tied up in investments. Now that this money is largely been flushed down the toilet, maybe I'm eligible now.



I always thought you got stafford loans regardless, the grants are what had been dependant on income. Ah well. I sign the paper, they give me the money, I pay the money back when I'm done.

If you're not eligible for a grant and don't want to be a "drain" why not take a loan?


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## AJ Hidell (Feb 28, 2009)

PapaBear434 said:


> Then again, the reason I was never eligible was because we had a crap load of money tied up in investments.  Now that this money is largely been flushed down the toilet, maybe I'm eligible now.


LOL!  Don't mean to laugh at your situation.  It's one that more and more people are experiencing.  But it is certainly a good point.



> Thing is, I'm sure his statements would be based on medical findings and not personal opinion and bias.  If he walked in and told me I had cancer, I'd be mortified and distraught, but I'd probably believe him.


I disagree with the analogy.  His diagnosis is simply an informed and educated opinion based upon the preponderance of the evidence.  And that is exactly what I am giving you, an informed and educated opinion based upon nearly forty years of evidence.  There is really no difference.



> Look, I respect your experience and knowledge, but I'm not willing to accept that I'm destroying OUR profession because I am finding a way to pay for my schooling that doesn't include me putting myself into crippling debt in a very tough economic time.


I appreciate that, as well as appreciating your situation.  If I did not think you were an intelligent and reasonable man, I wouldn't have continued with the discussion.



> I ask you again:  How would YOU recommend I get my schooling without sacrificing my daughters' upbringing or my financial future?


Well again, I want to make it perfectly clear that this is not about you.  As I stated more than once already, I understand that people and communities all have different circumstances to contend with.  And I acknowledged that no one man will make a difference by falling on a sword of principle.  I never expected that from you or anyone else.  All I expect is philosophical integrity.  I want people to know and understand the depth of the issue, and to be honest with themselves as they choose their path, instead of arguing against the obvious truth in order to try and spare themselves some guilt.  You have done that, and I honestly respect it.  I only hope that the profession turns out to be what you really wanted.  I don't know what your department is paying paramedics, but if they are so cash strapped that they have to rely on volunteers, that generally means that they probably aren't paying what a man raising two kids would like to make.  And if the volunteer system is the norm in your area, then you may be left with very few options for the future, which is precisely my point that by taking this route, you may be limiting the potential of the very future you are working for.  I do wish you the best of luck.


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## Ms.Medic (Feb 28, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> Or they could use the intelligence and common sense that God gave them to be a little creative and figure out that, just because the firemen work 24 hour shifts does not mean that we have to continue that tradition.  Work out a shift arrangement that doesn't require sleeping quarters.  How hard is that?
> 
> As for the money, don't get me started.  Did you see the budgets that were just passed by the Congress to address pig odors and Frisbee golf courses?  Don't tell me this country lacks the funds to pay for EMS.  It's a lie.  And don't tell me your community doesn't either.  They manage to pay the teachers and school bus drivers, the city hall janitors and mechanics, the water department and street department workers without volunteers.  Nobody picks up garbage for free in your community.  So puhleeze... it's all a lie.




I totally agree about the volunteer situation, I in NO WAY, want my families lives in the hands of volunteers with little or no certifications, especially woodchucks that drive eratic w lights and sirens on their cars. How un-professional, how tacky, and immature. All that says about them is "look at me", "look at me", "I need some attention". Yes I also believe that it causes pay problems.


BUT, we could cut cost in other places as well that would probably help more than just a little, like below.

By having a "911" taxi service. If the caller answers certain questions in a certain way that tells the trained dispatcher that it is clearly NOT a real emergency,  

 ie:
Dispatch: 911, what is your emergency ?
caller :   My mama aint ackin righ
Dispatch: Whats the problem ?
caller :   She didn get hu check in da mail, she runnin all over da house ackin a foo dawg
Dispatch : We'll send the police right over
caller :  Naw, you need to send ems dawg, we tryin to have a party and need hu gone up out dis house fo a few hours. She need to stay in da hospital for da night.
Dispatch: Yes sir, anything you need, we'll have ems there in just a few minutes.


This was a true call. 



How about educating the repeated callers for "taxi rides" to the hospital on whats a true emergency and whats not, adn not allowing them to take advantage of the system like this. The Government, County judges, and every other judge is partially to blame for high cost for granting people like this compensation for these type of calls. All it takes is to be told one time, " Im sorry, you can sue for that, But I as a judge am not going to award you ANYTHING".

Or, letting people know about services within their community, thats a free service, to "taxi" to the hospital, to keep ambulances open for true emergencies.


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## PapaBear434 (Feb 28, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> I worked over 100 hours a week and did it. Never once with completion of four degrees did I ever take a student loan out and yes, I had a family, mortgage and no family to depend upon. I remember not even going home for 6 weeks straight. Nobody accelerates or advances without sacrifices. It is deciding what sacrifices makes the difference.
> 
> What if an employer offered a contract for school loans? Something I am pushing for. Personally, I refused them but it would be an alternative to loans. Also, I would not consider you "sucking" off society if you did proceed and give back as in they way of working and putting back into the economy.
> 
> ...



Very important, actually, which is why I am getting quite offended by the implication that I and all volunteers are selfish glory-hounds out for the rush.  I am off to a late start, and am not willing to sacrifice my daughter's to the alter of daycare for the sake of my career, but that doesn't make me any less dedicated to it.  

Personally, I view this as being a contract in exchange for school funds.  They just don't ask for many hours in exchange for not actually paying me.  Four 48 hours a month, I get thousands of dollars every semester in tuition and books I don't have to pay for (I do have to cover any non-medical, general education classes I have to take to get my degree.)  

Nor do I plan on getting my medic in two and a half years from now and stopping there.  I want my RN, dang it.  My wife is going for her masters degree, likely for CRNA, so I figure why can't I?  The kids will be older then, and I will be able to dedicate more of my time without feeling guilty.

Just because I am currently not getting paid directly for my time doesn't mean that I don't consider this my job.  I have a regular shifts, I work out of actual firehouses with real ambulances (no light bars on our POV's, thanks) and an actual uniform (though it's a little more utility than it is dress.)  

But I can tell you all day how dedicated I am to it, and it would still be up to you to believe me.  And I don't know if you can ever get past the idea that "volunteer" does not necessarily have to mean "worthless."  In my case, it's just a means to an end.  I can get my schooling in, I can spend time with my girls, and since I don't have a "day job," taking up my time, I can concentrate more time and effort into my studies and have a decent night's sleep before I practice my skills on a patient.  

A lot of folks see volunteers as worthless, and not worthy of having anything to do with EMS.  I am hoping you will prove to be a little more reasonable.  

With that in mind, here is my cheesy-*** story to try to convince you of my intentions.

Yes, as a kid I always wanted to be the hero.  I wanted to be the guy that, when I showed up, people were happy and grateful that I arrived.  I thought at the time that meant I wanted to be a cop.  After I was injured, I had time to think about what I was doing while I recovered.  Ultimately, I decided it wasn't for me.   I also realized that the times that I felt I was helping people the most is when I was helping them in the kinds of situations I work in now.  

I once took over CPR for a medic after he and his partner were spent, so they could concentrate on the meds.  The woman survived, after a few weeks on a vent.  I helped take care of a little kid with a broken leg, holding it still while I tried to calm him down, until Fire/Rescue showed up.  I decided that being an officer had too much dealing with trying to protect myself against the public and not actually helping people.  I just wasn't happy doing what I was doing, but still wanted to help people.  That little kid in me still wanted to put on the cape and be a hero.

Course, that was when my wife was starting nursing school, and we had our two daughters, so it was just easier and cheaper for me to stay home and take care of the girls and let her concentrate on her studies (Navy still paid her, thankfully).  I knew I wanted to be a medic, but I was still waiting to get it done.  Now that she's out of school, it's my turn to get my education.  But as said, money is still a little tight.  And Ensign makes less money than you would think, and considering how much money we had tied up in the stock market that's now effectively gone, I wasn't looking at going to school for quite a while.

Then, I found out that my neighboring sister city had a volunteer rescue squad, and that they pay for your schooling and degree program in exchange for your work.  I decided that I was 26 years old, and that if I waited much longer it was never going to happen.  If I passed up on this opportunity, I would probably give up on my having a career in the field altogether, thinking I was just simply too old to do so.

Yes, I still want to be the hero.  But no, that doesn't just mean driving a truck fast through traffic with blinky lights, fun as it may be.  Just because I want to appease my inner child doesn't mean I am deluded to into thinking that is all there is to it.


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## PapaBear434 (Feb 28, 2009)

Sasha said:


> I always thought you got stafford loans regardless, the grants are what had been dependant on income. Ah well. I sign the paper, they give me the money, I pay the money back when I'm done.
> 
> If you're not eligible for a grant and don't want to be a "drain" why not take a loan?



Why take the loan if I can get it paid for?  Seriously?  Why willingly put yourself so heavily in debt when you don't have to?


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## Sasha (Feb 28, 2009)

PapaBear434 said:


> Why take the loan if I can get it paid for?  Seriously?  Why willingly put yourself so heavily in debt when you don't have to?



So you don't want to be a Medic if you can't get it for free?


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## PapaBear434 (Feb 28, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> Well again, I want to make it perfectly clear that this is not about you.  As I stated more than once already, I understand that people and communities all have different circumstances to contend with.  And I acknowledged that no one man will make a difference by falling on a sword of principle.  I never expected that from you or anyone else.  All I expect is philosophical integrity.  I want people to know and understand the depth of the issue, and to be honest with themselves as they choose their path, instead of arguing against the obvious truth in order to try and spare themselves some guilt.  You have done that, and I honestly respect it.  I only hope that the profession turns out to be what you really wanted.  I don't know what your department is paying paramedics, but if they are so cash strapped that they have to rely on volunteers, that generally means that they probably aren't paying what a man raising two kids would like to make.  And if the volunteer system is the norm in your area, then you may be left with very few options for the future, which is precisely my point that by taking this route, you may be limiting the potential of the very future you are working for.  I do wish you the best of luck.



As I said, I don't know how much the medics get paid.  I know it must be enough, because all of them seem to be driving nice cars and only have this as their job.  So, it can't be terrible.  We did recently go on a hiring freeze, as the economic situation has gotten bad here as well as everywhere else, but they are still paying for everyone's school who is willing to go.

Just a different way of doing things, as I said.

But, yes, this is something that I've wanted for the better part of the last decade, and only now really went after.


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## Ms.Medic (Feb 28, 2009)

PapaBear434 said:


> I ask you again:  How would YOU recommend I get my schooling without sacrificing my daughters' upbringing or my financial future?





You could do it like me, I put myself through school without a grant, loan, or any handout from my family. I was a single mother of two, with a mortgage of 1200.00 a month, working nights for the sheriffs dept, my note for my tahoe of 450.00, and paying 600.00 a month for daycare. I have worked EXTREMELY HARD to get here, it has cost me valuable time with my children, I had to leave behind relationships, my social life was completely non existent, and there was literally times where I was up for 72 hours at a time, I'll swear to it. I still had dinner on the table every evening, did homework w my kids, and made it to a lot of their school functions, granted I couldnt do as much as I wanted to though. I saved my tax returns for 3 years, and like I said, my social life was literally NON existent. There is no excuse out there that I would ever consider having pitty for after everything I have been through to get here. I know with all of my heart, if you want it bad enough, theres not an excuse in the world to keep you from it.... I did it, and I will be VERY happy to say that after trying hard, saving even harder, 7 years of wanting it with all of my heart, Im at the end and now my national registry will be in 3 days. NO EXCUSES !!!  Just DO IT, and want it with all of your heart.


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## PapaBear434 (Mar 1, 2009)

Sasha said:


> So you don't want to be a Medic if you can't get it for free?



I think you are making a rather simplistic argument out of it.  As I said, this is something I certainly wanted ever since I decided that the police department wasn't for me.  That was back when I was twenty.  With all the money me and the wife were putting away for retirement, doing the whole "responsible" thing and planning for our future, I was looking at taking out a considerable amount of money in student loans.  

Again, why do that if you don't have to?  Yeah, I WOULD pay if there were no other option.  But there is.  These people pay for it, and I get experience all the way up. 

The economy is crapping out to an unprecedented degree, so why purposefully put yourself in debt?  To prove a point?  Show how "legit" I am?


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## PapaBear434 (Mar 1, 2009)

Ms.Medic said:


> You could do it like me, I put myself through school without a grant, loan, or any handout from my family. I was a single mother of two, with a mortgage of 1200.00 a month, working nights for the sheriffs dept, my note for my tahoe of 450.00, and paying 600.00 a month for daycare. I have worked EXTREMELY HARD to get here, it has cost me valuable time with my children, I had to leave behind relationships, my social life was completely non existent, and there was literally times where I was up for 72 hours at a time, I'll swear to it. I still had dinner on the table every evening, did homework w my kids, and made it to a lot of their school functions, granted I couldnt do as much as I wanted to though. I saved my tax returns for 3 years, and like I said, my social life was literally NON existent. There is no excuse out there that I would ever consider having pitty for after everything I have been through to get here. I know with all of my heart, if you want it bad enough, theres not an excuse in the world to keep you from it.... I did it, and I will be VERY happy to say that after trying hard, saving even harder, 7 years of wanting it with all of my heart, Im at the end and now my national registry will be in 3 days. NO EXCUSES !!!  Just DO IT, and want it with all of your heart.



While I appreciate that you did it and had a hard time of it, your situation is not mine.  I found a way to get my medic WITHOUT all the horrible hardships.  Because I didn't suffer for it, will that make me less of a medic?  

If your level of suffering is your measure of a medic or how much one wants it, then you are just as selfish as AJ purports me to be.  You are doing it as part a persecution complex.

Now, of course I don't believe that your actually a selfish person, or that you have a persecution complex, but you seem to want everyone else to go through just as much as you.  Though I want this, I'm not willing to let my home and family life suffer for it.


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## Ms.Medic (Mar 1, 2009)

PapaBear434 said:


> but you seem to want everyone else to go through just as much as you.  Though I want this, I'm not willing to let my home and family life suffer for it.




How in the world do you figure that I would want anyone to go through what I had to by me stating that you shouldnt make excuses?


Why did you even start in with this discussion, if you already know that you cannot afford it? You asked how you should go about it, but then you say your not willing to let things go for it ???? Im certainly not saying to let your home and family life suffer, but then thats when you need to take a look at another career that you are able to do, right ??? AND, you think that your family and home wont suffer for you spending all the time your gone and gas money to volunteer ??? WRONG. I'd start putting a little more time and "gas money" aside for an education instead of wasting it on your volunteering if I were you.


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## Ridryder911 (Mar 1, 2009)

PapaBear434 said:


> Very important, actually, which is why I am getting quite offended by the implication that I and all volunteers are selfish glory-hounds out for the rush.  I am off to a late start, and am not willing to sacrifice my daughter's to the alter of daycare for the sake of my career, but that doesn't make me any less dedicated to it.
> 
> Personally, I view this as being a contract in exchange for school funds.  They just don't ask for many hours in exchange for not actually paying me.  Four 48 hours a month, I get thousands of dollars every semester in tuition and books I don't have to pay for (I do have to cover any non-medical, general education classes I have to take to get my degree.)
> 
> ...



I don't find them worthless but more of an annoyance. They hemper professionalism and improvement within the EMS system. 

Facts: 
EMT curriculum was watered down due directly to the protest of Volunteer agencies. 

Care and safety of the patient was NOT the main intent, rather to be able to keep traditional systems and to help keep retention of members. 

The worries of increasing additional education and responsibilities were directly fought by volunteer groups. 

One of the most advisory groups against any curriculum changes and making EMS more pro-medical has and is currently volunteer agencies. 

Now, do you see why professional providers are offended? You are new to the profession. Attempt in quitting being offended and know and learn the industry. You will learn why the bitterness.

Ask your wife, if she would volunteer as a RN until she obtained her CRNA? You will learn about student loans if your alike most other family that have someone in nurse anesthetist school. Most require the minimum of 3-4 years practicum with no or minimal stipend. 

You are in a unique situation. I don't think volunteers are stupid or even their intent is always wrong, but unfortunately they do not see the whole picture. EMS is much larger than just providing an ambulance to someone. Something that training and education systems drastically fail to address and teach to students and medics fail to recognize. In fact, having an ambulance is just one small tiny part of EMS. 

p.s. Quit worrying about being a hero. Provide excellent care with intelligence of education and knowledge and sharp skills. Hero status is usually reserved for those that have died while attempting to change things. 

R/r 911


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## Foxbat (Mar 1, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> And I acknowledged that no one man will make a difference by falling on a sword of principle.  I never expected that from you or anyone else.  All I expect is philosophical integrity.  I want people to know and understand the depth of the issue, and to be honest with themselves as they choose their path, instead of arguing against the obvious truth in order to try and spare themselves some guilt.


If quitting (I guess that's what you meant by falling on sword) will make no difference, what do you want us to do, continue volunteering but recognize we are selfish, ignorant people who harm society?


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## PapaBear434 (Mar 1, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> You are in a unique situation. I don't think volunteers are stupid or even their intent is always wrong, but unfortunately they do not see the whole picture. EMS is much larger than just providing an ambulance to someone. Something that training and education systems drastically fail to address and teach to students and medics fail to recognize. In fact, having an ambulance is just one small tiny part of EMS.
> 
> p.s. Quit worrying about being a hero. Provide excellent care with intelligence of education and knowledge and sharp skills. Hero status is usually reserved for those that have died while attempting to change things.
> 
> R/r 911



I see where you are coming from, but I don't think my system is part of that same problem.  Volunteers that want to are ultimately groomed to be medics, and those that don't are used as grunt labor to help with the heavy lifting.  They are held to a very high standard of professionalism, and anyone who doesn't meet that criteria are removed quickly (being a volunteer thing, there is no probationary time needed before canning someone for bad behavior.)  There is always at least one medic on board, which is more than I can say for a lot of places around the country.  And since training is for all intents and purposes free, most people at least take themselves to EMT-I which raises the general level of care dramatically.  

I can understand your perspective, but I think there is still room for a volunteer system.  

As far as my wife volunteering, she's a pediatric specialty, so she also volunteers as the local children's hospital in the NICU.  She does this because she wants to, but also because the intensive care experience and hours logged will help her get into her University of Michigan CRNA program.  Volunteering as a means to an end.  Yes, she could be moonlighting and actually getting PAID for it, but she figures she can give back this way.

Also, I meant "hero" in the more philosophical sense.  After I get done with a call right now, even something simple like an old lady that fell on the garage floor and fractured a hip or a wrist, I feel really good that I was there to help.  To her, I could be a hero, or just some big ape that put her on a cold back board and wouldn't give her any pain killers.  But in my own head, I know I was there when she needed help.  That's enough for me.


Oh, and *Ms. Medic*, I'm sorry you took offense.  I thought you were suggesting that I should go through all of that same stuff you did simply to fall on the sword and avoid the big bad volunteer system.  My misunderstanding, my mistake, my apologies.  

No sarcasm, I really mean that.


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## AJ Hidell (Mar 1, 2009)

PapaBear434 said:


> But, yes, this is something that I've wanted for the better part of the last decade, and only now really went after.


Okay, but now I am REALLY confused, lol.  You want to be a nurse?  If being a medic is such a huge dream for you, why are you already planning to go do something else as soon as you get it?  This just isn't making any sense.  And it's back-asswards.  If you're going to do both, then RN to medic is the MUCH preferable path to take, and the much easier path too.  I cannot even begin to impress upon you how much better it is for you to be a nurse before a medic, instead of the other way around.  I sure wish I had gone that route.  I'd be a much better provider today.  Not to mention that, if you're a nurse first, you don't have to worry about how you're going to pay for medic school, lol.


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## PapaBear434 (Mar 1, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> Okay, but now I am REALLY confused, lol.  You want to be a nurse?  If being a medic is such a huge dream for you, why are you already planning to go do something else as soon as you get it?  This just isn't making any sense.  And it's back-asswards.  If you're going to do both, then RN to medic is the MUCH preferable path to take, and the much easier path too.  I cannot even begin to impress upon you how much better it is for you to be a nurse before a medic, instead of the other way around.  I sure wish I had gone that route.  I'd be a much better provider today.  Not to mention that, if you're a nurse first, you don't have to worry about how you're going to pay for medic school, lol.



You think YOU'RE confused...  No, I'm going the medic route, because a BS in acute care leads fairly nicely into getting the bridge to RN.  Yes, RN is more widely respected.  But I want to specialize for a reason (flashing lights make me feel happy) and expand from there.


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## AJ Hidell (Mar 1, 2009)

Foxbat said:


> If quitting (I guess that's what you meant by falling on sword) will make no difference, what do you want us to do, continue volunteering but recognize we are selfish, ignorant people who harm society?


Well, it's a realistic start.  If people at least honestly recognise and admit the problem, those with a better sense of professional integrity will take it to heart.  Every little bit helps.  Would I rather every volunteer walk off the job?  Sure.  No doubt about that.  But again, I am neither stupid nor unrealistic.


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## EMTCop86 (Mar 1, 2009)

PaulieThePirate said:


> I’m a new EMT-B who wants to be a paramedic. I would like to start paramedic school next year but I’ve been getting a lot of mixed reviews. Most tell me that I’m to new to the field and that I should get more experience first. I’ve had equal amounts of people tell me that this would be a good time in my life to do it. Since I don’t have anything tying me down. Do you recommend that I wait or get started with the school? Can anyone recommend schools in the Boston area?


 
IMHO if you want to be a good paramedic you must first be a good EMT. If you don't get experience as an EMT how will you know if your good at it or not...


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## AJ Hidell (Mar 1, 2009)

EMTCop86 said:


> IMHO if you want to be a good paramedic you must first be a good EMT. If you don't get experience as an EMT how will you know if your good at it or not...


No offense, but having completed neither EMT nor paramedic training, or achieved any experience as either, what do you base your humble opinion on?  A wild guess?  What you heard from others who aren't yet paramedics either?

I'm sure you also believe that someone should be a good security guard for a few years before becoming a police officer, right?


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## Sasha (Mar 1, 2009)

> A wild guess?



My guess is preceptors or instructors who waited for Medic school and are preaching to her that you should wait.

That is what clinical ride times are for. To find out if A) You really want to do it, and B) IF you'll be any kind of decent at it. Contrary to what students think, being an EMT-B is not rocket surgery. Put pressure here, hold that really still, put oxygen on anything with a head, pump up and down right there. The people who aren't good EMTs, in my very limited experience, usually aren't in EMS for the patients, but for the "cool job" lights and sirens and wont make it through medic school. All you have to do is have three and a half brain sells and care about your patient. 

I can tell you that I went directly into Medic, and I'm a "good basic", and will be a great Medic :] Even with less than a year experience as a basic. Part of the reason I am a good basic is because of what I've learned in Paramedic school.

So why spend time being a B? Get into P school and start being a better provider.


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## JonTullos (Mar 1, 2009)

I've also been told different things by different people.  Friends of mine who are medics have about evenly told me to wait a year after Basic and to head to medic school after Basic.  Even instructors at schools I've talked to have been somewhat mixed.  I do know that I have to take A&P I (and would prefer to have taken II) before I can get into the medic program so there's a part that says take A&P I the semester after Basic and all... as of right now I'm not sure what I'll do.  I will probably make the decision closer to time for the Basic class to start.  As for whether I think you should go ahead to medic school... I say if you really think you can handle it and you're sure being a medic is what you want to do, go for it.  However, as others have said, check school and state requirements.  One school I talked to (not in MS though) said they require someone to have their Basic patch for a year before they'll even let them apply.


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## AJ Hidell (Mar 1, 2009)

Completing both A&P classes, as well as microbiology, chemistry, psych and sociology will do much, much more to make you a better medic than any amount of being an ambulance driver.  There is zero doubt about that.  For that matter, they would make you a much, much better EMT too.  If at all possible, you should take those before EMT school.  Your skills are meaningless without the scientific foundation to understand them.  And trust me, you don't learn that in any EMT school.  Good luck!


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## sir.shocksalot (Mar 1, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> If at all possible, you should take those before EMT school.


I personally don't think you need any science background to be an EMT, as many others on these forums have said, it's a little better than advanced first aid. However I do fully agree with AJ that a good science background is essential to success as a paramedic, as a paramedic you have to have a thorough understanding of how the body works, and why certain things do the things they do, like understanding oncotic (sp?) pressure, and simple/facilitated diffusion, osmosis et, all so you can understand why we give saline to people. I would also suggest taking freshman composition, and a communication class as these classes are also essential to good being a good care giver.


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## AJ Hidell (Mar 1, 2009)

Nobody is claiming you need education to be an EMT.  A lot of complete idiots prove that every day.  And if all you want to be is another one of those idiots, it's easy enough for anyone with an 8th grade education to do.  What I am saying is that you will be a much, much BETTER EMT with it than without it.  Again, there is zero way to intelligently or credibly dispute this.


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## PapaBear434 (Mar 1, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> Nobody is claiming you need education to be an EMT.  A lot of complete idiots prove that every day.  And if all you want to be is another one of those idiots, it's easy enough for anyone with an 8th grade education to do.  What I am saying is that you will be a much, much BETTER EMT with it than without it.  Again, there is zero way to intelligently or credibly dispute this.



Just so I can be clear on your stances, do you consider EMT-I idiots?  Or just Basics?

Either way, I wouldn't consider it very fair to call them idiots.  Uneducated, maybe ignorant, yes.  But I think it's a little elitist of you to claim that everyone below your current level is an idiot.


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## AJ Hidell (Mar 1, 2009)

PapaBear434 said:


> But I think it's a little elitist of you to claim that everyone below your current level is an idiot.


And I think it is illiterate of you to claim that I said something that I never said.  That's either an absurd assumption, or you really need to improve your reading comprehension skills.


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## Ridryder911 (Mar 1, 2009)

Okay, let's look at field experience realistically. 

Fortunately my service allows Basics & Intermediates to care for those patients meet their level of license. The reason is one cannot learn much behind the wheel. Patient care is provided in the back and most while en route. Hence the reason we encourage and demand those limited personal to be able to gain experience. Now, all of our lower level license personnel are all  Paramedic students or graduates awaiting testing. We limit how many, and one understands they must advance within one year. 

Many Paramedic level EMS will only allow BLS EMS personnel to drive. Again, how much patient care does one get behind the wheel. How many times does one have to place a LSB before they get proficient? 

So many emphasize "skills" as they should be the main point; when in reality one can master the basic skills with just a little repetitious practice. They are rated as one the easiest skills to master within medicine. Yes, its been proven.

Also, where does one obtain this so called required experience? How much gainful experience does one get driving a wheel chair van or transporting non-emergency patients. Truthfully, those experience has nothing to do with EMS. They could develop their own requirements and industry standards but why when they can get it for free? 

So now, you have a patch for one year. If you did not use the intent of the patch what good did it do? 

Compare this. One could being getting experience or be getting an education (maybe both). When the student graduates, the EMT will have one to two years experience and the medic student will have graduated and guess what? They will be in charge of the EMT. While the new Paramedic gains their experience and rises up the career ladder; where will that EMT be?

One can always obtain experience, depends upon what experience is really considered beneficial.


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## sir.shocksalot (Mar 1, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> The reason is one cannot learn much behind the wheel.


For services that only let the EMT drive, then yes you are absolutely correct, there is no real experience to be gained from just driving. What about services that allow the EMT to attend on most calls, barring those that need ALS treatment? I think there is a lot of experience to be gained from preforming your own assessment, calling in your own phone report etc. While these may not be vital to success in paramedic school in so far as education goes, but wouldn't this kind of experience be essential after paramedic school? Just bouncing ideas around.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 1, 2009)

Play nice people, it would be a shame to close such a productive thread.


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## medic417 (Mar 1, 2009)

sir.shocksalot said:


> For services that only let the EMT drive, then yes you are absolutely correct, there is no real experience to be gained from just driving. What about services that allow the EMT to attend on most calls, barring those that need ALS treatment? I think there is a lot of experience to be gained from preforming your own assessment, calling in your own phone report etc. While these may not be vital to success in paramedic school in so far as education goes, but wouldn't this kind of experience be essential after paramedic school? Just bouncing ideas around.




It is nothing that will not be picked up in the clinical portion of your paramedic program.  My students are required to do all that under the supervision of a quality preceptor, thus any mistakes are fixed.  So it really did no add to your experience.  And if you are taking care of patients and doing an assessment with the limited training recieved and unsupervised how do you know if your experience is quality.  Remember perfect practice makes perfect but uneducated which equates to imperfect practice just makes bad habits.


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## medic417 (Mar 1, 2009)

ffemt8978 said:


> Play nice people, it would be a shame to close such a productive thread.



Thank you for allowing as you even said a productive discussion of what is often just a mudslinging competetion.


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## PapaBear434 (Mar 1, 2009)

sir.shocksalot said:


> For services that only let the EMT drive, then yes you are absolutely correct, there is no real experience to be gained from just driving. What about services that allow the EMT to attend on most calls, barring those that need ALS treatment? I think there is a lot of experience to be gained from preforming your own assessment, calling in your own phone report etc. While these may not be vital to success in paramedic school in so far as education goes, but wouldn't this kind of experience be essential after paramedic school? Just bouncing ideas around.



Beat me to it.  My service lets BLS handle BLS calls and transports on their own, call in the reports, do turnover, and render whatever Basic level treatment is necessary.  

While some zero-to-hero medics I've seen are decent medics when they first get on in so far that they memorized their protocols (ie: cook book medic,) they don't have many skills in the way of assessment, talking to the patient, or even calling in the report.  

Not stuff that's necessarily vital to doing their job, but things that they retroactively had to work on.  

I'm not even saying that you should wait for a huge amount of time before you start medic school.  I waited two months, long enough to get released as a Basic in my system, and I went right back to it.  I found it a benefit, some people may not.  As I said four pages previous, your mileage may very depending on who you are.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 1, 2009)

Since people can't seem to play nice even when reminded...


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