# How many of you carry a traumma bag in your POV



## Flightorbust (Oct 12, 2011)

So, not trying to turn this into a wacker thread, but how many of you guys carry a trauma kit in your car or truck.


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## Handsome Robb (Oct 12, 2011)

Really? We have had some good conversations but, really?


:deadhorse:


No, I don't. I have a CPR mask and a pair of gloves, a very basic first aid kit for personal/family/friend use and a cell phone. After the new AHA push for public "Hands Only" CPR I have considered ditching the mask.


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## Tigger (Oct 12, 2011)

Don't and won't.

Ditched the crappy keychain pocket mask after the new AHA guidelines came out. There's some gloves in the console and two 5x9s next to the tire jack. Sometimes a zip-lock sized first aid kit. Lately my athletic training kit has been living in my car, does that count?


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## Flightorbust (Oct 12, 2011)

NVRob said:


> Really? We have had some good conversations but, really?
> 
> 
> :deadhorse:
> ...



What can I say? The search sucks. I'm just wondering how many people actually carry them. I know there's 1001 threads about what people carry in them, but not so much just simply if you carry any kind of traumma kit.


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## Handsome Robb (Oct 12, 2011)

fair enough. search only includes words of 4 letters or greater.


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## tssemt2010 (Oct 12, 2011)

i carry my first responder bag which has bandaging/splinting, c-collars, king tubes, resq pods etc


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## truetiger (Oct 12, 2011)

I carry absolutely nothing. I've got a cell phone if I need it.


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## IRIDEZX6R (Oct 12, 2011)

Its a lawsuit waiting to happen... no good deed goes unpunished.. I'll call 911 maybe get a quick assessment for dispatch. Other than that, that's all I'll do.. I carry gloves, that's it.


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## truetiger (Oct 12, 2011)

No sense even doing an assessment, it just adds liability. No reason for them to know you have any EMS cert at all. It's never come up yet, but when/if it does, I'll limit my involvement to "do you want an ambulance?"


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## IRIDEZX6R (Oct 12, 2011)

truetiger said:


> No sense even doing an assessment, it just adds liability. No reason for them to know you have any EMS cert at all. It's never come up yet, but when/if it does, I'll limit my involvement to "do you want an ambulance?"



I meant scene assessment, general visual, not a patient assessment... I'll get the info I can get from looking around, but no touching...


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## Aprz (Oct 12, 2011)

I don't have a trauma bag. I did jump in on an emergency during a non-EMS job once, but now I just call 9-1-1.


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## Handsome Robb (Oct 12, 2011)

9/10 I'll identify myself to the dispatcher with my name and employee ID as I drive by and call in so I don't have to deal with 75048327045081275081274 dispatch questions. Ill tell them what agencies I would request, tell them I never made pt contact and describe the wreck. They are on the clock and getting paid to figure out the rest.


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## Flightorbust (Oct 12, 2011)

truetiger said:


> No sense even doing an assessment, it just adds liability. No reason for them to know you have any EMS cert at all. It's never come up yet, but when/if it does, I'll limit my involvement to "do you want an ambulance?"



Here in Colorado we have the good Samaritan act that covers ya. I used to carry one but it was more to patch up the staff then anything (I was working as a bouncer).


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## epipusher (Oct 12, 2011)

Absolutely nothing. No bag, no stickers on my car, no ems/fire shirts while off duty. We live in a very litigious society.


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## medicdan (Oct 12, 2011)

Flightorbust said:


> Here in Colorado we have the good Samaritan act that covers ya. I used to carry one but it was more to patch up the staff then anything (I was working as a bouncer).



I'd double check on that if I were you... the law may still be on the books, but take a look at case law, and you'll find Good Sam laws have been fought successfully many many times-- and may no apply to you because you have training above just First Aid, even if you don't use it. You're better off just calling 911.


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## Trauma_Junkie (Oct 12, 2011)

I carry a kit in my POV but it's more my trauma kit for SAR when we get called out. I also work w/ an Army style cadet program (where we have a medical director) and I utilize it there.

We have the Good Samaritan laws in my area but we have been taught if you are trained, it doesn't cover you.


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## mcdonl (Oct 12, 2011)

I carry huting, fishing and trapping equipment in my truck. Only stuff to hurt, nothing to help.


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## dixie_flatline (Oct 12, 2011)

Have no identifying markings on my car.  Carry a general purpose "car emergency" bag in my trunk - flares/reflectors, disposable camera, small first aid kit. I make sure that I have a couple pairs of gloves in case someone I care about is injured.  Other than that I highly resist the urge to stop.  If I see a car crashed with a wild-eyed husband and a wife pushing out a baby on the side of the road... I might slow down.

I can't say that I have first-hand experience with this, but I was told that a career lieutenant in our department stopped at the scene of an MVA in his personal vehicle to see what was wrong. Apparently things did not go so well for the pt, and it was discovered that he was a paramedic and he did nothing other than alert 911.  The family sued him in court for not performing to his level of training (even though he didn't even have a pair of gloves).  Just because a case doesn't have much chance of winning doesn't mean they can't put you through the pain of having to respond, legally.  Again, I can't verify which lieutenant this was, but it was told to me by another LT in our dept that I wouldn't suspect of lying or making it up to scare people.


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## Phishbohn (Oct 12, 2011)

I carry a smallish trauma bag right next to my turn out gear.


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## Phishbohn (Oct 12, 2011)

I don't carry anything in my Vespa.  but I've been considering it.


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## dstevens58 (Oct 12, 2011)

I have a pair of gloves if it goes anything above and beyond me calling 9-1-1 on the cell phone.


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## jbrynels (Oct 12, 2011)

I carry a full jump bag, and an AED. When I'm not away on my boat I have the AED with me at least. Other than that, I carry a regular jump kit. In Canada there is no liability on a good Samaritan helping at a scene, so I figure, I have it, why not use it.


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## dixie_flatline (Oct 12, 2011)

jbrynels said:


> I carry a full jump bag, and an AED. When I'm not away on my boat I have the AED with me at least. Other than that, I carry a regular jump kit. In Canada there is no liability on a good Samaritan helping at a scene, so I figure, I have it, why not use it.









You might want to look into exactly how a good samaritan is covered... I can pretty well guarantee that if you have a scalpel and suture kit in your bag and decide to try some field surgery to stop an arterial bleed, you won't have a leg to stand on.  Good Samaritan laws are there to protect John Q Public who is trying to do The Right Thing by his fellow man.  They're not there to enable every Ricky Rescue who daydreams about how he'll save his next vic - I mean patient.


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## MSDeltaFlt (Oct 12, 2011)

My part-time job has very few (ie none) paramedic jump kits so you have to have your own and use hospital's supplies. The only time I have my kit in my car is to and from shifts and when I forget to put it up on days off.  Because those supplies are for that job and that job alone and only when I'm clocked in.  I won't even use a 4X4 for a paper cut on myself.  Period.


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## bigbaldguy (Oct 12, 2011)

I carry gloves.


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## frdude1000 (Oct 12, 2011)

I carry a basic BLS kit for friends/family.  I also use it sometimes with my small ems standby group b/c we use my vehicle occasionally.


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## IRIDEZX6R (Oct 12, 2011)

Some of these people almost sound like they'd drive an ambulance as their POV if they could..


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## truetiger (Oct 12, 2011)

Seems its mostly EMT's that carry off duty supplies....


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## IRIDEZX6R (Oct 12, 2011)

truetiger said:


> Seems its mostly EMT's that carry off duty supplies....



h34r: You're right.


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## Fish (Oct 12, 2011)

I have My Tactical Gear with me at all times usually, so therefore I carry medical gear with me at all times pretty much. Then again, I am required to have it with me.


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## RocketMedic (Oct 12, 2011)

I carry my aid bag, because I hate leaving it in the randomly-locked locker room and I find myself needing it quite often during PT hours or being sent to some range somewhere or something. In my part-time job, we carry smallish BLS bags when we're on-call, mostly because our doctor wants us to.


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 12, 2011)

I always carry a O2 tank (H size) along with an AED and a full ALS first in bag, a monitor, and several backboards and flats...... 

Ooh wait you said personal vehicle? Well I have a small cheap first aid kit for myself/friends/family and gloves. I always have my cellphone fo that emergency number. Uhhhh and let's see that's it. Ooh and I do have a star of life on the back of my truck but that doesn't mean I have to stop at accidents.


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## IRIDEZX6R (Oct 12, 2011)

firefite said:


> I always carry a O2 tank (H size) along with an AED and a full ALS first in bag, a monitor, and several backboards and flats......
> 
> Ooh wait you said personal vehicle? Well I have a small cheap first aid kit for myself/friends/family and gloves. I always have my cellphone fo that emergency number. Uhhhh and let's see that's it. Ooh and I do have a star of life on the back of my truck but that doesn't mean I have to stop at accidents.



Add an "In an Emergency call 911" sticker and you're set.


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## jbrynels (Oct 12, 2011)

dixie_flatline said:


> You might want to look into exactly how a good samaritan is covered... I can pretty well guarantee that if you have a scalpel and suture kit in your bag and decide to try some field surgery to stop an arterial bleed, you won't have a leg to stand on.  Good Samaritan laws are there to protect John Q Public who is trying to do The Right Thing by his fellow man.  They're not there to enable every Ricky Rescue who daydreams about how he'll save his next vic - I mean patient.



I said regular jump kit. At what point does a regular jumpkit include scalpel and sutures?


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## abckidsmom (Oct 12, 2011)

truetiger said:


> Seems its mostly EMT's that carry off duty supplies....



And parents.  I have a well-stocked bag, and I use it all the time.  It's called preparedness.  If someone I am with is bleeding, I like to have something to put on it...saves calling 911 most of the time, and saves me having to cut strips out of my shirt to bandage the people.

There's nothing to be ashamed about carrying a bag.  It's the attitude with which you carry it that matters.  Don't go stopping at every traffic accident thinking you'll be a big hero, just deal with what life throws at you.


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## jbrynels (Oct 12, 2011)

abckidsmom said:


> And parents.  I have a well-stocked bag, and I use it all the time.  It's called preparedness.  If someone I am with is bleeding, I like to have something to put on it...saves calling 911 most of the time, and saves me having to cut strips out of my shirt to bandage the people.
> 
> There's nothing to be ashamed about carrying a bag.  It's the attitude with which you carry it that matters.  Don't go stopping at every traffic accident thinking you'll be a big hero, just deal with what life throws at you.



I completely agree. I know in the states they have a whole set of legalities that go along with it, and it's a shame. I know personally, I do what I do because I like to help people. It's certainly not the pay ($2/hour when on call, bumped to not much above minimum wage when actually at a call). I figure, if I have the training, and the supplies why not utilize them to the best of my ability. Especially when it could help save a life. Not to mention, where I live, it can take an ambulance up to half an hour to get there, my neighbors know they can call on me if they need help (after calling 911) and that if I see an accident on the highway, I will stop and see if anyone is in need of help. It's not about being a hero, it's about being trained to help and therefore wanting to help.


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## jbrynels (Oct 12, 2011)

*Good Samaritan Act - Canada*

Just in case anyone was curious this is the good Samaritan act in BC specifically. It is a provincial law in Canada. 



> No liability for emergency aid unless gross negligence
> 
> 1  A person who renders emergency medical services or aid to an ill, injured or unconscious person, at the immediate scene of an accident or emergency that has caused the illness, injury or unconsciousness, is not liable for damages for injury to or death of that person caused by the person's act or omission in rendering the medical services or aid unless that person is grossly negligent.
> Exceptions
> ...


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## the_negro_puppy (Oct 12, 2011)

Anyone who carries a trauma bag in their own vehicle has probably experienced some sort of emotional trauma themselves


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## Handsome Robb (Oct 12, 2011)

> No liability for emergency aid unless gross negligence
> 
> 1 A person who renders emergency medical services or aid to an ill, injured or unconscious person, at the immediate scene of an accident or emergency that has caused the illness, injury or unconsciousness, is not liable for damages for injury to or death of that person caused by the person's act or omission in rendering the medical services or aid unless that person is grossly negligent.
> Exceptions
> ...



The bolded part is what omits you from the law. Although not on the clock, you still are employed by an EMS agency. (assuming this by your other post)

Any decent lawyer could take you to the cleaner if it did end up in court and you used this Good Sam law as your defense. 

Don't take this the wrong way I agree with you about helping people. However, I refuse to risk my livelihood, my certification, me health and possibly my freedom for a complete stranger when I am not on duty and covered under my agencies insurance.




truetiger said:


> Seems its mostly EMT's that carry off duty supplies....



Paramedics tend to get a little more education when it comes to legal/liability subjects.


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## Bosco836 (Oct 12, 2011)

abckidsmom said:


> And parents.  I have a well-stocked bag, and I use it all the time.  It's called preparedness.  If someone I am with is bleeding, I like to have something to put on it...saves calling 911 most of the time, and saves me having to cut strips out of my shirt to bandage the people.
> 
> There's nothing to be ashamed about carrying a bag.  It's the attitude with which you carry it that matters.  Don't go stopping at every traffic accident thinking you'll be a big hero, just deal with what life throws at you.



Well said.  I too carry a bag for the exact same reason.


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## jbrynels (Oct 12, 2011)

NVRob said:


> The bolded part is what omits you from the law. Although not on the clock, you still are employed by an EMS agency. (assuming this by your other post)
> 
> Any decent lawyer could take you to the cleaner if it did end up in court and you used this Good Sam law as your defense.
> 
> ...




You are incorrect. The law only applies to those that are WORKING (i.e. ON DUTY) for whatever their service be. Your last thought is correct, we do have a class we have to take on the legalities and this was one thing that we were spoken to about.


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## Handsome Robb (Oct 12, 2011)

jbrynels said:


> You are incorrect. The law only applies to those that are WORKING (i.e. ON DUTY) for whatever their service be. Your last thought is correct, we do have a class we have to take on the legalities and this was one thing that we were spoken to about.



Then the law you posted is incomplete or lacking other applicable laws to this discussion. It doesn't define on/off duty, all it states is employed.

You misread my last thought. Education for ALS providers here goes much further into the legal aspect than that of a BLS provider, at least in my program. I sat through a lot more than one class about legal issues pertaining to a prehospital healthcare provider.


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## Cup of Joe (Oct 12, 2011)

I have a roadside repair kit incase my car breaks down on the LIE (like tire sealer, some road flares, a reflector, etc.)  I think it might have some band-aids in it?  Never opened it.


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## adamjh3 (Oct 12, 2011)

Small emergency kit for me and mine with a lot of "comfort" items for if I get stranded somewhere (blankets, gloves, jackets, lots of water, lickies and chewies, and some basic first aid stuff). I do a lot of hiking so I'm out in the boonies fairly often. No way I'm stopping on the side of a California freeway unless I have to.


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## DrParasite (Oct 12, 2011)

I carry my rescue gear and my on duty ambulance bag in the truck on my car (more because I'm too lazy to take it out when I get home and forget it when I need to go into work for a shift).

neither has any equipment outside of my own personal protective equipment.

but I do have my phone with me at all times, and will always call 911 and let the professionals and the AHJ handle any emergency that I might come upon in my travels


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## bigbaldguy (Oct 12, 2011)

Fish said:


> I have My Tactical Gear with me at all times usually, so therefore I carry medical gear with me at all times pretty much. Then again, I am required to have it with me.



Did you mean to capitalize "My Tactical Gear"? :unsure:


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## Fish (Oct 12, 2011)

bigbaldguy said:


> Did you mean to capitalize "My Tactical Gear"? :unsure:



NO :sad:


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## AK_SAR (Oct 12, 2011)

*Yes, I carry a kit.*

I carry a well stocked basic FA kit in my car. Sometimes I have my SAR pack with me, which has a more extensive kit. I also keep a kit in my boat.  In town I would probably just call 911 and let them handle it.  However in Alaska, outside of towns cell phone coverage is sparse to non existent, and EMS resources are few and far between. In that situation I would help, within my training. 

Alaskans  have a long tradition of helping each other.  Unfortunately that attitude is fading, as more and more people move here from down south, bringing lower 48 attitudes with them.

Alaska has a Good Samaritan Law (links below).  I haven't heard of anyone being sued so long as they stayed within their training.  

Civil Liability for Emergency Aid (AS 09.65.090)
http://www.chems.alaska.gov/EMS/Assets/Downloads/AS0965090.pdf

Civil Liability for use of an AED (AS 09.65.087)
http://www.chems.alaska.gov/EMS/documents/Civil_Liability_aed_000.pdf


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## DarkStarr (Oct 13, 2011)

I keep a kit in my truck which is basically the size of a BVM with 2 side pockets stuffed with a couple odds and ends.  

I am 5 miles from work and live in the middle of our service area, so I often QRP an E1 if I will make it there before the ambulance or if they might need assistance.  I get paid for these and am also covered by insurance if I get into an accident (as long as I called en route).

I do carry my old turnout gear from the FD, but am debating on ditching those.

Would not mind have an emergency roadside kit (more for personal use), but want to get spray on bedliner and then a locking toolbox first.  The inside of my cab is for people, not dirty gear o:


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## 18G (Oct 13, 2011)

abckidsmom said:


> And parents.  I have a well-stocked bag, and I use it all the time.  It's called preparedness.  If someone I am with is bleeding, I like to have something to put on it...saves calling 911 most of the time, and saves me having to cut strips out of my shirt to bandage the people.
> 
> There's nothing to be ashamed about carrying a bag.  It's the attitude with which you carry it that matters.  Don't go stopping at every traffic accident thinking you'll be a big hero, just deal with what life throws at you.



I completely agree. I maintain a med bag primarily for use on my kids heaven forbid something should happen. It's the smart thing to do. As Abckidsmom said, there is nothing to be ashamed of for having medical supplies on hand. It's not "uncool" or the latest trend to not have a med/response bag. It's our job to teach other's to be prepared yet were not going to be prepared ourselves? Makes no sense. 

And when I go to NYC or DC I always make sure the med bag goes with me and is kept in the hotel room or in the car. In today's world we never know what is going to happen and when 911 may not be available. And a backpack is always on my back with some medical "stuff" as well the usual tourist necessities too.  

Maybe this is a negative shift of society in general, but I am kinda surprised that quite a few EMT's and Paramedic's have posted that they will pretty much ignore a fellow human being who is in need when they are off duty. 

Have we really become that self-centered and more worried about ourselves that we will turn our back on someone in need? It's a really shallow and lame way of being.


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## epipusher (Oct 13, 2011)

I will absolutely ignore a person in need, short of calling 911. No one person, other than family, is worth losing my cert,job,financial stability, or going to jail for.


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## 18G (Oct 13, 2011)

IRIDEZX6R said:


> Its a lawsuit waiting to happen... no good deed goes unpunished.. I'll call 911 maybe get a quick assessment for dispatch. Other than that, that's all I'll do.. I carry gloves, that's it.



Sad.


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## 18G (Oct 13, 2011)

epipusher said:


> I will absolutely ignore a person in need, short of calling 911. No one person, other than family, is worth losing my cert,job,financial stability, or going to jail for.



Just remember the attitude your breeding because the same can happen to you and your family.


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## epipusher (Oct 13, 2011)

18G said:


> Just remember the attitude your breeding because the same can happen to you and your family.



I'm not oblivious to this fact. It is very unfortunate.


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## 18G (Oct 13, 2011)

epipusher said:


> I'm not oblivious to this fact. It is very unfortunate.



Your not going to lose your, "cert, job, financial stability, or go to jail" because you showed compassion and a willingness to help in an emergency. Sure, anyone can get sued but that doesn't mean the case has any substance. 

No need to be paranoid.


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## abckidsmom (Oct 13, 2011)

18G said:


> Your not going to lose your, "cert, job, financial stability, or go to jail" because you showed compassion and a willingness to help in an emergency. Sure, anyone can get sued but that doesn't mean the case has any substance.
> 
> No need to be paranoid.



I totally agree.


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## Sasha (Oct 13, 2011)

18G said:


> Your not going to lose your, "cert, job, financial stability, or go to jail" because you showed compassion and a willingness to help in an emergency. Sure, anyone can get sued but that doesn't mean the case has any substance.
> 
> No need to be paranoid.



Really? People sue for the stupidest crap. Compassion and willingness to help doesn't mean crap in a litigious society.


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## Fish (Oct 13, 2011)

epipusher said:


> I will absolutely ignore a person in need, short of calling 911. No one person, other than family, is worth losing my cert,job,financial stability, or going to jail for.



Aslong as you provided the right treatment and activated 911 why on earth would you be sued, and if sued it would not be won by the plantiff? You are a Paramedic, be a Paramedic.


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## Scott33 (Oct 13, 2011)

18G said:


> I completely agree. I maintain a med bag primarily for use on my kids heaven forbid something should happen. It's the smart thing to do.



When you say med bag, do you mean a bag with medications in it?


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## 18G (Oct 13, 2011)

Sasha said:


> Really? People sue for the stupidest crap. Compassion and willingness to help doesn't mean crap in a litigious society.



I said anyone can get sued but that doesn't mean the case has any substance to it. 

And honestly, I think there would be more of a liability and case if you failed to act appropriately when you had the training and experience to do so. 

What scenario is going to get the greatest backlash from the public? The scenario where an off-duty Paramedic stood by and watched someone die as they bled to death, or the scenario where the same Paramedic put fourth the effort to stop the bleeding because they obviously care enough about human life to make the effort? 

Imagine your the Paramedic being flashed across the 6 oclock news because your the douche who was too scared to save the person that has now died and the family and public are pissed off. Guess who they are coming after now? And you may not be convicted in a court room, but the public, family, and your peers will convict you for sure. 

And I am pretty sure that once your at a scene and make some contact with a patient, your committed until EMS get's there. And if your close enough to make an assessment and dial 911, you already went too far and you just committed yourself to providing care. You have a moral, ethical, and professional obligation to do what any reasonable person would do. Why does anyone think they can just walk away or stand in the background? 

I will take my chances with a jury taking my side when I showed compassion, professionalism, and a desire to prevent further distress or loss of life in an emergency. 

Being ignorant, self-centered, showing a lack of compassion, and breaching the moral, ethical, and professional obligation...eh.. not so sure I would use all that to get the jury on my side.


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## 18G (Oct 13, 2011)

Scott33 said:


> When you say med bag, do you mean a bag with medications in it?



No, "med bag" is abbreviated for medical bag. Med bag tends to be the general descriptor of the "first-in" bag on the ambulance around here.


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## Sasha (Oct 13, 2011)

18G said:


> I said anyone can get sued but that doesn't mean the case has any substance to it.
> 
> And honestly, I think there would be more of a liability and case if you failed to act appropriately when you had the training and experience to do so.
> 
> ...



The one where you did nothing has absolutely no weight. You are NOT obligated (in most states) to provide care off duty. So what will they sue you for? Caring about yourself and your family and not getting involved?

Being a jerk is not a sueable offense. And I don't find not providing care very jerkish.

Driving by and calling 911 is not initiating an assessment. Neither is it initiating a patient provider relationship.


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## mycrofft (Oct 13, 2011)

*I bring my jump kit when family might need it.*

And to events like CERT work days. I used to carry it a lot, but the heat beating on the contents is bad for them, and I used it only once (minor MVA).


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## Scott33 (Oct 13, 2011)

18G said:


> No, "med bag" is abbreviated for medical bag. Med bag tends to be the general descriptor of the "first-in" bag on the ambulance around here.




Gotcha, thanks.

I've been spending too much time on the Zombie hunters forum


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## 18G (Oct 13, 2011)

Scott33 said:


> Gotcha, thanks.
> 
> I've been spending too much time on the Zombie hunters forum



haha... I know what you mean... I visit there as well.


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## mcdonl (Oct 13, 2011)

epipusher said:


> I'm not oblivious to this fact. It is very unfortunate.



Pull up your big boy britches and do what is right if it bothers you. ANY LIFE is worth me losing my certs over. New careers can be had, but it takes a special man to ignore someone in need for their own monitary gain.

In my opinion


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## Fish (Oct 13, 2011)

Does a Doc get scared on an airplane when someone is having a Medical emergency and they are not in the state that he practices? No, he gets up and treats the patient and so should the Medic. We are Nationally registered, and if not. The benadryl and Epi in one state is the same as the other, and most likely your systems protocol dosage for them will work just fine so treat the dang patient!

Whats the harm in holding pressure over someones wound, or hold cspine while you wait for EMS to arrive? How on earth are you going to get successfully sued if you did it correctly.


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## Fish (Oct 13, 2011)

mcdonl said:


> Pull up your big boy britches and do what is right if it bothers you. ANY LIFE is worth me losing my certs over. New careers can be had, but it takes a special man to ignore someone in need for their own monitary gain.
> 
> In my opinion



Agreed, no competent Medic that has confidence in his/her own abilities should ever be scared to render aid off duty. And that person should not be a Medic if they refused to and someone died and you had the ability to prevent death from occuring.


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## Sasha (Oct 13, 2011)

Doctors carry malpractice insurance.

You best not be giving meds off duty, youre then working without a license.

Who is going to pay your family when you are hit and killed holding pressure on the side of the road?

Dont say that doesnt happen. It does.

If you do it right and theyre still injured or dead you are still gonna be sued and a hysterical widow is a lot more sympathetic than a ricky rescue.

I am confident and competent. I call 911 and continue unless my butt is on shift when i pass an accident. My family has already suffered the loss of a good samaritan being killed on the side of the road, i will not put them through it a second time.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## Sasha (Oct 13, 2011)

The choice to render aid off duty is a very personal one. How dare you talk down to those who choose to put themselves and their families above a stranger.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## Fish (Oct 13, 2011)

Sasha said:


> Doctors carry malpractice insurance.
> 
> You best not be giving meds off duty, youre then working without a license.
> 
> ...



Sorry to here about your family member, that being said I am not afraid to render care and will always continue to do it.


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## Sasha (Oct 13, 2011)

Good for you.

I choose not to. That is my right as i am not under professional protection or obligation. Doesnt make me less of a provider.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## Fish (Oct 13, 2011)

Sasha said:


> Good for you.
> 
> I choose not to. That is my right as i am not under professional protection or obligation. Doesnt make me less of a provider.
> 
> Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk



No you are not obligated, but I could never just sit there and watch someone die knowing that I could change that. So morally, I feel obligated. But hey thats just me.


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## VCEMT (Oct 13, 2011)

I carry a Snap-On jump pack, wrench set(standard and metric), shop rags, adhesive strips(Band-Aid brand), gloves, condoms, duct tape, lime, rope, spare tire, blankets, sensual lotions, water, charcoal, flares, and jerky.


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## Sasha (Oct 13, 2011)

Fish said:


> No you are not obligated, but I could never just sit there and watch someone die knowing that I could change that. So morally, I feel obligated. But hey thats just me.



Keep driving and you wont have to watch anyone die. And you also wont be in the way of the responding crew.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## Sasha (Oct 13, 2011)

VCEMT said:


> I carry a Snap-On jump pack, wrench set(standard and metric), shop rags, adhesive strips(Band-Aid brand), gloves, condoms, duct tape, lime, rope, spare tire, blankets, sensual lotions, water, charcoal, flares, and jerky.



Sounds like Ted Bundys go bag!

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## Fish (Oct 13, 2011)

VCEMT said:


> I carry a Snap-On jump pack, wrench set(standard and metric), shop rags, adhesive strips(Band-Aid brand), gloves, condoms, duct tape, lime, rope, spare tire, blankets, sensual lotions, water, charcoal, flares, and jerky.



That pack is not complete without the Jerky


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## Fish (Oct 13, 2011)

Sasha said:


> Keep driving and you wont have to watch anyone die. And you also wont be in the way of the responding crew.
> 
> Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk



This is not just about being on the road, many other situations present themselves. I don't stop for every fender bender. And why on earth would a Medic be in the way of a responding crew? You become part of the crew and work together.


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## Fish (Oct 13, 2011)

Sasha said:


> Sounds like Ted Bundys go bag!
> 
> Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk



What is tapatalk? I need to get this, is it for your phone?


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## IRIDEZX6R (Oct 13, 2011)

Sasha said:


> The choice to render aid off duty is a very personal one. How dare you talk down to those who choose to put themselves and their families above a stranger.
> 
> Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk



Go Sasha  +1,000,000


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## Sasha (Oct 13, 2011)

Fish said:


> This is not just about being on the road, many other situations present themselves. I don't stop for every fender bender. And why on earth would a Medic be in the way of a responding crew? You become part of the crew and work together.



Lol oooookay you have obviously never done this before.

They dont want your help. For all they know you are some emt drop out or someone who can pass the state but not get a job. 

Responding crews have the firemedic ego.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## Sasha (Oct 13, 2011)

Fish said:


> What is tapatalk? I need to get this, is it for your phone?



I wouldnt recommend it. It doesnt always work and likes to send my posts while im still typing them. Mycrofft makes me have to open it in browser anyway since he uses the title bar as his first line of post.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## Sasha (Oct 13, 2011)

IRIDEZX6R said:


> Go Sasha  +1,000,000



Thanks! I am feeling fiesty today. 

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## Fish (Oct 13, 2011)

Sasha said:


> Lol oooookay you have obviously never done this before.
> 
> They dont want your help. For all they know you are some emt drop out or someone who can pass the state but get a job.
> 
> ...



Thats a crazy assumption. I have done "this" before I am in my 8th year of doing "this" sort of stuff. And we don't have Firemedics, we have Medics. Where we practice is obviously way different, we respect Medics as medical providers and utilize them on scene here. I have worked in an area that does have Firemedics however, and still I was used and wasn't in the way. Maybe it is all on how you present and identify yourself.


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## Sasha (Oct 13, 2011)

Doubtful. Here even when we are on the truck they dont want our help and barely listen to a report. It is all egos and political bs.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## Fish (Oct 13, 2011)

Sasha said:


> I wouldnt recommend it. It doesnt always work and likes to send my posts while im still typing them. Mycrofft makes me have to open it in browser anyway since he uses the title bar as his first line of post.
> 
> Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk



I can't do anything from mine:sad:


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## Fish (Oct 13, 2011)

Sasha said:


> Doubtful. Here even when we are on the truck they dont want our help. It is all egos and political bs.
> 
> Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk



Sounds backwards to me, I couldn't work in a place like that.


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## Fish (Oct 13, 2011)

Sasha said:


> Doubtful. Here even when we are on the truck they dont want our help and barely listen to a report. It is all egos and political bs.
> 
> Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk



Am I right i assuming that you either work in CA or FL?


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## dixie_flatline (Oct 13, 2011)

I'm with Sasha on this one.  It is a desperate crew that accepts help from a civilian on the scene of an accident.  If I roll up and it's an MCI or something, or I'm the only unit and I need to get a patient backboarded and moved stat, I might enlist the help of someone else, but unless I personally know you and your qualifications, you won't be doing jack on my scene once we've talked to you about what happened.  

That's the way I and everyone else I know handles things.


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## Fish (Oct 13, 2011)

dixie_flatline said:


> I'm with Sasha on this one.  It is a desperate crew that accepts help from a civilian on the scene of an accident.  If I roll up and it's an MCI or something, or I'm the only unit and I need to get a patient backboarded and moved stat, I might enlist the help of someone else, but unless I personally know you and your qualifications, you won't be doing jack on my scene once we've talked to you about what happened.
> 
> That's the way I and everyone else I know handles things.



No one is going to ask you to intubate, but holding pressure or to keep holding Cspine?

And like I said before, this is not JUST ABOUT CAR WRECKS. Are you gonna watch someone go into Anaphlatic shock on a plane and die? or are you going to treat them? You do know that planes carry EPI and such right?


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## cynikalkat (Oct 13, 2011)

*in my car...*

I carry a small first aid kit in my car and my keychain (waaaay to big for keychain) mask in my bag. When I was a social worker I was required to have a car 1st aid kit, as I was always w clients in MY car. Im debating about getting the stickers for my car. I see them all over Cape Cod! I always call 911 if i see an accident and no emergency vehicles there. I did once stop and wait with an elderly guy when he was hit by an oncoming vehicle, but i wasn't am emt (in class then actually), and i really stayed as a witness. He was very thankful, poor guy.


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## mycrofft (Oct 13, 2011)

*Nya-ha-ha-ha Sasha!*


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## RocketMedic (Oct 13, 2011)

We are ordered to stop for things like that- part of being one of Uncle Sam's finest.

At my other job, I stop, because we're way, way rural and my employer likes it that way.


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## 18G (Oct 13, 2011)

Sasha said:


> The choice to render aid off duty is a very personal one. How dare you talk down to those who choose to put themselves and their families above a stranger.



It is a personal one your right. But a human being is a human being also. No one is saying to run out into gun fire or leap through flames. 

If a kid is hurt on a playground, lend your assistance... if you drive by someone frantic because someone was cutting wood for the Winter and is bleeding severely, lend your assistance... if your in Wal-Mart and someone is having a seizure, help protect them from hurting themselves, maintain their airway, and offer some reassurance to family present and by-standers. Is that really too much to ask?

It has been said by a much higher authority that a time will come when people will become lovers of themselves and stop caring for their fellow man and become extremely selfish. It's obvious that time has come.


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## epipusher (Oct 13, 2011)

I'll change my name to Selfish McSelfision then, and be proud of it. Nobody can guarantee that I will not be held liable for anything that might happen to a patient, or not happen for that matter, that I rendered any kind of care to. To say without a doubt that someone is not risking their certs, or worse, is absolutely ignorant. It's bad enough we as EMS professional risk our certs daily while on the clock is enough for me to not take any risks outside of work.

A snippet from an article by David Givot, EMS1.com:http://www.ems1.com/ems-advocacy/articles/829161-The-question-every-new-paramedic-has-to-answer/

But, more than all that, it is the paramedic — and nobody else — who goes to work every morning, takes out their license to practice, slams it on the table and says: "I dare you, world; I dare you to take this away from me today. I dare you to take my livelihood, my possessions, and even my life. I dare you."

Because, unlike any other profession, in EMS a simple twist of fate, a simple mistake or simple misjudgment can cost you everything. I've tried, but I cannot think of any other profession where that is true. There are jobs that are singularly more difficult. There are jobs that are singularly more dangerous. But there is no other profession that is more significant for those reasons and many more.


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## Steam Engine (Oct 13, 2011)

cynikalkat said:


> I carry a small first aid kit in my car and my keychain (waaaay to big for keychain) mask in my bag. When I was a social worker I was required to have a car 1st aid kit, as I was always w clients in MY car. Im debating about getting the stickers for my car. I see them all over Cape Cod! I always call 911 if i see an accident and no emergency vehicles there. I did once stop and wait with an elderly guy when he was hit by an oncoming vehicle, but i wasn't am emt (in class then actually), and i really stayed as a witness. He was very thankful, poor guy.



   The Cape can be pretty desolate in the off-season, especially from Dennis on down so I'd say having a few basics with you is always a good idea for the rare chance that you do happen upon a situation requiring your attention. Most won't, but I think it's always good to be prepared.
   The one time I did stop to assist (at least in an urban setting) was on the Cape with a fairly gnarly car vs. tree around 0200. Luckily the passengers were uninjured, and actually ended up refusing transport once the ambulance arrived, but having gloves and a flashlight handy added to peace of mind.
    As for stickers, I'm not a fan. I'd rather be able to choose to identify myself or not depending upon the situation.


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## DrParasite (Oct 13, 2011)

dixie_flatline said:


> unless I personally know you and your qualifications, you won't be doing jack on my scene once we've talked to you about what happened.


That's my exact policy as well.  unless I know you, once you give you a report, you should leave unless I say otherwise.  

you can be the chief trauma surgeon, lead paramedic, local ems captain, best cardiologist in the world, but even if you have proper ID, unless I know you personally, give your report and leave.  



18G said:


> If a kid is hurt on a playground, lend your assistance... if you drive by someone frantic because someone was cutting wood for the Winter and is bleeding severely, lend your assistance... if your in Wal-Mart and someone is having a seizure, help protect them from hurting themselves, maintain their airway, and offer some reassurance to family present and by-standers. Is that really too much to ask?


depends on the person.... I would rather have the professionals show up who have the tools to fix the problem than an educated person who can hold a person's hand but not really fix the problem.


18G said:


> It has been said by a much higher authority that a time will come when people will become lovers of themselves and stop caring for their fellow man and become extremely selfish. It's obvious that time has come.


yes, but I don't think it's because of the selfishness of the responders, but rather to fear that their desire to help out their fellow man will only bring them pain and suffering, because that is the type of society we are now living in.


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## cynikalkat (Oct 13, 2011)

Steam Engine said:


> The Cape can be pretty desolate in the off-season, especially from Dennis on down so I'd say having a few basics with you is always a good idea for the rare chance that you do happen upon a situation requiring your attention. Most won't, but I think it's always good to be prepared.
> The one time I did stop to assist (at least in an urban setting) was on the Cape with a fairly gnarly car vs. tree around 0200. Luckily the passengers were uninjured, and actually ended up refusing transport once the ambulance arrived, but having gloves and a flashlight handy added to peace of mind.
> As for stickers, I'm not a fan. I'd rather be able to choose to identify myself or not depending upon the situation.



YUp, I always have blanket, towel (my car leaks), and spare clothes (@ least in cold mos) in the car. 

I think the stickers are sort of a show-off thing, at least around here.i always see them on either big trucks  or SUVs w/ FF license plates


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## 18G (Oct 13, 2011)

epipusher said:


> It's bad enough we as EMS professional risk our certs daily while on the clock is enough for me to not take any risks outside of work.



You really feel that when you go to work everyday you are "risking your certs"? I have never felt that way and I'm pushing the 20yr mark. 

Why does providing quality care within your protocols and scope of practice make you paranoid and feel that you are "risking your cert"?

Of course, any patient can become dissatisfied and want to sue you. A family who lost a loved one and is hurt and want's accountability may sue you in their time of anger and grief. But that doesn't mean the claim has any merit. Anything can happen and that goes with everything in life. 

Many seem to think that not doing anything in an emergency offer's them 100% immunity and will protect them from someone making a claim against them. 

Again, you can get sued for anything. And if someone finds out your the off-duty Paramedic or EMT who chose not to help, they can try to sue you. And even though they may not be able to, your name will receive lot's of mention especially if it is a high profile case in the community. And don't think your employer won't be mentioned either. We all know how when something happens involving Fire/EMS, the employer or affiliated station always get's mentioned on the news. 

Do unto other's as you want done unto you? Does that rule not apply anymore? We stopped teaching that? If so, I never got the memo.


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## epipusher (Oct 13, 2011)

As you just stated several times, anyone can sue for anything. 

/thread


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## Sasha (Oct 13, 2011)

I am an atheist so you can say your higher power will judge me til the cows come home. That doesnt strike any fear in my heart.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## Handsome Robb (Oct 13, 2011)

18G said:


> You really feel that when you go to work everyday you are "risking your certs"? I have never felt that way and I'm pushing the 20yr mark.
> 
> Why does providing quality care within your protocols and scope of practice make you paranoid and feel that you are "risking your cert"?



I agree with you on this point. If your within your protocols and providing good care, even with a properly reported mistake you are fine. It's the people that are too cavalier in the field and try to play doctor that are risking their certs while on duty. Even if your on duty and you are negligent your employer wont be there to catch you and clean up your mess, they are going to protect themselves. 

The golden rule is awesome, but in the litigious society we live in it just isn't how it works. People always look for somewhere to place the blame and an off duty EMS provider is a prime target. You don't see a construction worker pulling off the highway to fix something when he isn't working...ok :censored::censored::censored::censored:ty example but you get my point. 

I agree with helping people but your not gonna see me stopping at an MVA unless its way out in the boonies and looks really severe. In town sure I'll help out if something happens in front of me but I will never ID myself to someone as an EMT/Medic and I will never go beyond very very basic 1st aid or CPR. 

"What momma doesn't know wont hurt her"


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## Handsome Robb (Oct 13, 2011)

Sasha said:


> I am an atheist so you can say your higher power will judge me til the cows come home. That doesnt strike any fear in my heart.
> 
> Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk



You would want the cows to come home...dang vegetarians.


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## Sasha (Oct 13, 2011)

NVRob said:


> You would want the cows to come home...dang vegetarians.



Actually there are cows on my street. They can stay out all night if they take the donkey and the rooster with them, theyre so noisy!

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## Tigger (Oct 13, 2011)

18G said:


> Your not going to lose your, "cert, job, financial stability, or go to jail" because you showed compassion and a willingness to help in an emergency. Sure, anyone can get sued but that doesn't mean the case has any substance.
> 
> No need to be paranoid.



On the whole, I think EMS is a bit paranoid when it comes to fear of lawsuits. 

That said, I am personally fearful of lawsuits. It does not matter if a case has substance or not, if you become a plaintiff in a lawsuit you are in for a ride in many cases. You'll need a lawyer and time to go to court, both of which could potentially cause  a great deal of personal and financial anguish. Being found not liable doesn't mean you get off scott-free. Often times a counter-suit is needed to pick up the costs of a frivolous lawsuit, costing you even more time. I think this aspect of our legal system is horrifying, but in the absence of significant change, being named in a lawsuit means you will be losing some amount of money.

If anyone chooses to make the argument for not-rendering aid off-duty based on the above, I have zero problem with that.

I have no rule for how I act in these situations. If I'm a rural area and no one's on scene, odds are I'll stop. Even if I cannot care for the person, it's  easier to tell 911 whats going on when you're still there and not 5 miles away. I would never, ever stop if Fire or EMS was on scene. I have stopped at the same time LE arrived, and the cop gleefully gave me his first in bag and promptly left me and some other untrained bystanders to manage the patient for 20 minutes until the ambulance finally arrived. 

Oddly enough the last two times I've on-sighted anything and held c-spine the crew insisted I take the head for the c-spine process, which was a bit unexpected. I'm happy enough to give a report and get out of there.


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## Tigger (Oct 13, 2011)

NVRob said:


> In town sure I'll help out if something happens in front of me but I will never ID myself to someone as an EMT/Medic and I will never go beyond very very basic 1st aid or CPR.
> 
> "What momma doesn't know wont hurt her"



Would you identify yourself to the responding crew? 

The last time I told the crew I was an EMT the medic threw his EMT student a c-collar and was like "the dude on the head will teach you how to put it on." I thought that was a little odd, and kind of wished I hadn't told him I was an EMT so I could have left a little earlier instead of having to help board and extricate someone from an outdoor sculpture...


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## Fish (Oct 13, 2011)

This is crazy, I can't believe a EMT or Paramedic would watch someone die instead of helping out of fear of the possibility of a Law Suit.

Your at church, or a concert or something and someone goes into Cardiac arrest. Your telling me you wont do CPR until someone else arrives with Medical Gear?

Your on an airplane and the fellow next to you starts to have an anaphlatic reaction from Peanuts, your not gonna ask for the Medical kit on the plane and help this dude? Your just gonna play dumb and watch him die?

You driving home from a Movie, and see a bad wreck with no providers on scene with people screaming for help, your not going to pull over and see if there is anything at all you can do to help while you wait for help to arrive?

Your shopping at Walmart, waiting in the line at the cash register and someone starts seizing. Your just gonna wait for an on duty EMS crew to arrive instead of assisting people to back up. move stuff away from the patient and do what you can to protect them while transport arrives? Your just gonna sit there and watch?

Your at your sons little league game and someone falls down in the bleachers next to you and somehow cuts an artery in their arm bleeding profusely. Your just gonna be all, ew that looks like it hurts. Instead of directing pressure or maybe applying a turniqut? Instead you'll watch them lose an extremely large amount of blood while you all wait for someone else to arrive?

If you answered yes to these, then that just blows my mind.


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## Fish (Oct 13, 2011)

Tigger said:


> On the whole, I think EMS is a bit paranoid when it comes to fear of lawsuits.
> 
> That said, I am personally fearful of lawsuits. It does not matter if a case has substance or not, if you become a plaintiff in a lawsuit you are in for a ride in many cases. You'll need a lawyer and time to go to court, both of which could potentially cause  a great deal of personal and financial anguish. Being found not liable doesn't mean you get off scott-free. Often times a counter-suit is needed to pick up the costs of a frivolous lawsuit, costing you even more time. I think this aspect of our legal system is horrifying, but in the absence of significant change, being named in a lawsuit means you will be losing some amount of money.
> 
> ...



Right, I agree stopping when Fire and EMS are already on scene is not needed. Just when no one else is around. And as responders do walk up and you say, hey guys I am so and so and I am a Paramedic which such and such and this is what we have got here. They listen, they let you lend a hand, and they are appreciative.


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## RocketMedic (Oct 13, 2011)

By some of the responders here, you wouldn't even help to lift a burning car off of a person. That's despicable. The lack of caring for others here is why our society has become so petty. 

What ever happened to helping others?


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## RocketMedic (Oct 13, 2011)

Fish said:


> Right, I agree stopping when Fire and EMS are already on scene is not needed. Just when no one else is around. And as responders do walk up and you say, hey guys I am so and so and I am a Paramedic which such and such and this is what we have got here. They listen, they let you lend a hand, and they are appreciative.



Same here. Heck, in Culberson County, they'll have me do it all.


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## Fish (Oct 13, 2011)

Rocketmedic40 said:


> By some of the responders here, you wouldn't even help to lift a burning car off of a person. That's despicable. The lack of caring for others here is why our society has become so petty.
> 
> What ever happened to helping others?



Right, I wonder how many people would "just drive by" a car with a small fire in the engine compartment that is starting to spread with an unconscious person in it instead of stopping to pull the person out so that they don't burn. All because of a fear of a lawsuit, or fear of responding Fire crew egos, or fear of getting in the way, or "I am not on shift so I am not obligated"


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## jjesusfreak01 (Oct 13, 2011)

Tigger said:


> Would you identify yourself to the responding crew?
> 
> The last time I told the crew I was an EMT the medic threw his EMT student a c-collar and was like "the dude on the head will teach you how to put it on." I thought that was a little odd, and kind of wished I hadn't told him I was an EMT so I could have left a little earlier instead of having to help board and extricate someone from an outdoor sculpture...



Hahaha, this is great! Throwing his student into the fire...awesome!


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## bigbaldguy (Oct 13, 2011)

A man who dies because someone wouldn't do anything is a man who died needlessly.


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## Fish (Oct 14, 2011)

jjesusfreak01 said:


> Hahaha, this is great! Throwing his student into the fire...awesome!



Sounds like the precptor I had when I was a student, whats that Doc you have a gun shot to face lots of blood and vomit, 400lb guy a near impossible tube coming in from another Medic unit? Cool, make my student do it.


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## Sasha (Oct 14, 2011)

Fish said:


> Right, I wonder how many people would "just drive by" a car with a small fire in the engine compartment that is starting to spread with an unconscious person in it instead of stopping to pull the person out so that they don't burn. All because of a fear of a lawsuit, or fear of responding Fire crew egos, or fear of getting in the way, or "I am not on shift so I am not obligated"



I wouldnt stop because i am not gonna get my butt all burned up or explodey.

I dont want to do fire for a reason. 

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## RocketMedic (Oct 14, 2011)

In my line of work, we call that cowardice.
That's one thing I'll miss about the Army.

Seriously, you'd let a man burn to death because of the chance you might get burned? I hope you never work in the same state as me.


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## Altered Mental Status (Oct 14, 2011)

I ditched the crappy first aid kit in my car and carry a mini jump bag for friends and fam, mostly. I have the choice in my state (AL) to stop and assume DTA or to drive on by. I have a child and frequently drive long distances. I'd rather be _more_ prepared than less and make the choice in-between.


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## Fish (Oct 14, 2011)

Sasha said:


> I wouldnt stop because i am not gonna get my butt all burned up or explodey.
> 
> I dont want to do fire for a reason.
> 
> Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk



3 instances last year where people pulled victims out of vehicles on fire that were fully invovled by the time FD arrived, they saved those people lives and we call them heros. If I drove by and was scared of "getting my butt all burned" I'd call myself a coward. It doesn't take much to break out a window and pull someone out of the car, non of these heros suffered injuries. They were just glad the victim was out of the car. I know you are only 23 and haven't been doing this long, but when you hear someone screaming in a car that is on fire as they burn to death I think you will change your mind about how you would act in that situation. Now, obviously if a car is fully invovled by the time you see it, well then there is nothing you can do. But if it is just starting and spreading and you have time to save this life, why would you not? Pulling somoene out of a vehicle while off duty does not "make you a FF" it makes you a concerned human being. I am not a FF, and will never be. But I would never drive by this of no one else was on scene yet.


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## epipusher (Oct 14, 2011)

I'm far from 23, been in EMS for many many years, and a father of three. I would be proud to wear a big, red, capital "C" on my shirt, all day, every day.  IF everything I have stated makes me a coward, then I embrace it completely.


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## Fish (Oct 14, 2011)

Sasha said:


> I wouldnt stop because i am not gonna get my butt all burned up or explodey.
> 
> I dont want to do fire for a reason.
> 
> Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk



Lemme ask you this, if you were a regular lay person and not in the Medical field. Would you still drive by this car that has a fire spreading to the drivers compartment or would you stop to help?


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## Fish (Oct 14, 2011)

epipusher said:


> I'm far from 23, been in EMS for many many years, and a father of three. I would be proud to wear a big, red, capital "C" on my shirt, all day, every day.  IF everything I have stated makes me a coward, then I embrace it completely.



What colour would you like those shirts in? I know a good screen printer.


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## epipusher (Oct 14, 2011)

Fish said:


> What colour would you like those shirts in? I know a good screen printer.



EMS blue of course.


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## Fish (Oct 14, 2011)

epipusher said:


> EMS blue of course.



Done


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## Pneumothorax (Oct 14, 2011)

Fish said:


> Right, I wonder how many people would "just drive by" a car with a small fire in the engine compartment that is starting to spread with an unconscious person in it instead of stopping to pull the person out so that they don't burn. All because of a fear of a lawsuit, or fear of responding Fire crew egos, or fear of getting in the way, or "I am not on shift so I am not obligated"



I'm late in this convo , but I would #1 call 911 first #2 make sure it was safe for me to help said person. Its not gonna do anyone any good if you can't assist them safely. 
& god knows ppl will sue for ANYTHING.. So u just really have to becareful. But I would not take a lax attitude, I would do everything in my power to help. Driving by is just mean


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## Fish (Oct 14, 2011)

Pneumothorax said:


> I'm late in this convo , but I would #1 call 911 first #2 make sure it was safe for me to help said person. Its not gonna do anyone any good if you can't assist them safely.
> & god knows ppl will sue for ANYTHING.. So u just really have to becareful. But I would not take a lax attitude, I would do everything in my power to help. Driving by is just mean



Right, like said before if the car is completely up in flames well then there is no way you can help. But if we are talking the fire has not yet reach the driver compartment well then you have time and should attempt to pull'em out! And no one disagrees that people can sue for anything, but law suit or life, law suit or life? And that chances of that law suit actually going to court and being won? Minimal.


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## Sasha (Oct 14, 2011)

I would still drive by. Ever heard of a flash over?

Sudden air bag deployment?

I am too important to my family. Sorry, ill wear my scarlet "C" too. 
Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## Fish (Oct 14, 2011)

Ha, oh man.


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## RocketMedic (Oct 14, 2011)

And that's the difference between people who are in this for people and people who are in this for a paycheck alone.

My family would be disappointed, ashamed, and probably angry if I drove past someone in need and did not help. I know I'd be disappointed and ashamed with myself.


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## Tigger (Oct 14, 2011)

Fish said:


> Right, like said before if the car is completely up in flames well then there is no way you can help. But if we are talking the fire has not yet reach the driver compartment well then you have time and should attempt to pull'em out! And no one disagrees that people can sue for anything, but law suit or life, law suit or life? And that chances of that law suit actually going to court and being won? Minimal.



But again, you don't have to be found not liable to be completely screwed by the legal system. It takes effort and time to ensure that the suit does not proceed, which may cost you time at work. Then god forbid the suit does proceed, you're paying out the ear for a lawyer. Then, after you're found not liable, you have to counter sue to get your money back! It's terrible...

Now this not going to stop me from rendering aid when I feel it's appropriate. But it is going to be in the back of my head in a non-life or death situation. 

To those of you labeling others as cowards and whatnot, who exactly do you think you are? Who are you to judge their personal choices? So what if someone doesn't choose to make the same decision as you, that does not make anyone a coward. It means they have different beliefs than you. Grow up and learn to disagree with someone somewhat respectfully.

Sent from my out of area communications device.


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## epipusher (Oct 14, 2011)

Rocketmedic said:


> And that's the difference between people who are in this for people and people who are in this for a paycheck alone.
> 
> My family would be disappointed, ashamed, and probably angry if I drove past someone in need and did not help. I know I'd be disappointed and ashamed with myself.



That is exactly why I have been employed since the age of 16, for a paycheck.


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## Tigger (Oct 14, 2011)

jjesusfreak01 said:


> Hahaha, this is great! Throwing his student into the fire...awesome!



Just thought it was a little odd that the medic would designate me teacher of c-collaring ways at 0100 without ever meeting me haha.


Sent from my out of area communications device.


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## Fish (Oct 14, 2011)

Tigger said:


> But again, you don't have to be found not liable to be completely screwed by the legal system. It takes effort and time to ensure that the suit does not proceed, which may cost you time at work. Then god forbid the suit does proceed, you're paying out the ear for a lawyer. Then, after you're found not liable, you have to counter sue to get your money back! It's terrible...
> 
> Now this not going to stop me from rendering aid when I feel it's appropriate. But it is going to be in the back of my head in a non-life or death situation.
> 
> ...



If it was non-life threatening there would be no need to help, they can wait for EMS to arrive.

I don't think that my thinking someone is a coward for looking the other way when a fellow human is dying infront of them is childish and that I need to grow up for it. I think it is my opinion and perfectly reasonable and I stand by it.


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## Sasha (Oct 14, 2011)

Rocketmedic said:


> And that's the difference between people who are in this for people and people who are in this for a paycheck alone.
> 
> My family would be disappointed, ashamed, and probably angry if I drove past someone in need and did not help. I know I'd be disappointed and ashamed with myself.



You mean people are in this for the paycheck? what system are they working for so I can switch over there.

I wouldn't. My family experienced loss first hand because my aunt stopped to help a downed motorcyclist and was hit by two cars. Her entire lower half was pulverized. Literally we had to keep that part of the casket closed with a linen draped over the opening because it was disturbing.

My grandmother cried for weeks about how she was left in the road while they worked the scene and the others who were hit. My other aunt had been driving by on her way to the hospital (Because at that time we were told she had been airlifted, misinformation, she had been killed on impact and pronounced on the scene.) to see my aunt's dead mutilated body just lying in the street.

My family thanks me for NOT stopping and putting them through that. She died a hero, sure, but she is still dead and left behind a beautiful granddaughter, her mother and father (my grandparents) who have never recovered from the loss of their daughter, and her own daughter who has spiraled into drug use unable to deal with the grief. 

EVERY month my grandfather calls highway patrol, and the courthouse, to ask why charges were never filed against the two cars who hit and killed her. 

THAT is a first hand account of a good samiritan killed. THAT is why I will not stop, I love my family too much to put them through that again.

Give me some time and I'll find the article on her passing. The anniversary is coming up soon (during biketober fest.)

I'd rather she had been a coward and still been here.


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## Fish (Oct 14, 2011)

Stopping to help does have risk, what scares me the most is that you will not help no matter the situation. Doens't have to be a Car accident, could be a simple medical in a safe place. But you still wont render aid. My Uncle who was a up and coming race car driver, was struck and killed by a SEMI while stopping to help for a downed motorcyclist. I could not find an article on this since it happened in 1991. My uncle had no Medical experience but had sense enough to realize that if he didn't stop to pull the unconscious person off the freeway he was going to be run over. If I took a poll of who would do the same in my family, I think is would be a 100% yes I would do the same. I can't tell you what my uncle was thinking during his last minutes, but I am sure it had something to do with "I can't just leave him there to die."


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## dixie_flatline (Oct 14, 2011)

Tigger said:


> On the whole, I think EMS is a bit paranoid when it comes to fear of lawsuits.
> 
> That said, I am personally fearful of lawsuits. It does not matter if a case has substance or not, if you become a plaintiff in a lawsuit you are in for a ride in many cases. You'll need a lawyer and time to go to court, both of which could potentially cause  a great deal of personal and financial anguish. Being found not liable doesn't mean you get off scott-free. Often times a counter-suit is needed to pick up the costs of a frivolous lawsuit, costing you even more time. I think this aspect of our legal system is horrifying, but in the absence of significant change, being named in a lawsuit means you will be losing some amount of money.



It's not really important, but this is the Internet so whatever I say goes - a plaintiff is the complainant, or petitioner (i.e., the prosecuting party).

Amazingly enough, this thread on POV medical kits has yet again spiraled into a discussion of duty-to-act, although it's been less heavy on citations of law than previous threads and more reliant on arguments of humanity, ethics, and morals.  Thread lock imminent, I fear.


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## Tigger (Oct 14, 2011)

dixie_flatline said:


> It's not really important, but this is the Internet so whatever I say goes - a plaintiff is the complainant, or petitioner (i.e., the prosecuting party).



No, it is an important clarification, thanks for picking up on that. If rationale arguments are going to be made, we need to keep our terms straight.


Sent from my out of area communications device.


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## RocketMedic (Oct 14, 2011)

Part of what makes us human is that we will risk everything to help a total stranger. I would have a hard time dealing with a preventable death that I could have helped prevent had I acted...ie the recent Utah motorcyclist. Even if I were injured or killed I feel that it its appropriate for me to help...personally, Id rather my family think of me as a hero than a coward. Then again, my family is pretty resilient and unlikely tocollapse from juat one heroic loss.


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## Sasha (Oct 14, 2011)

Rocketmedic said:


> Part of what makes us human is that we will risk everything to help a total stranger. I would have a hard time dealing with a preventable death that I could have helped prevent had I acted...ie the recent Utah motorcyclist. Even if I were injured or killed I feel that it its appropriate for me to help...personally, Id rather my family think of me as a hero than a coward. Then again, my family is pretty resilient and unlikely tocollapse from juat one heroic loss.



That isnt what makes people human it is what makes them foolish.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## 18G (Oct 14, 2011)

Sasha said:


> You mean people are in this for the paycheck? what system are they working for so I can switch over there.
> 
> I wouldn't. My family experienced loss first hand because my aunt stopped to help a downed motorcyclist and was hit by two cars. Her entire lower half was pulverized. Literally we had to keep that part of the casket closed with a linen draped over the opening because it was disturbing.
> 
> ...



That is a really extremist view and sounds like a cop out to me. 

It's very said that your Aunt lost her life aiding someone in need along a roadway, but it's unfair to affect the rest of humanity because of one lost life. Instead of having her life be lost in vein why not use it as an example of unselfishness and use it to raise an awareness within yourself. Use it to be more cautious and perform a better scene assessment to protect yourself in such situations.  

I don't know what background your Aunt had but as a Paramedic, EMT, or Firefighter, we have a greater sense to anticipate and assess a scene which can mitigate the tragedy that happened to your family. Your right in that a risk is always present, but I thought it was innate in us to strive to save a life and go the extra mile that an ordinary citizen won't. What would your Aunt want you to do now? Make the effort or be selfish?

Your so worried about putting your family through another tragedy yet your a Paramedic and inherent the risk of that job? IFT or not it carries some risks.  

You give one bad example.. but what about the 100 good examples for that one? I think your letting emotion overrule your head. 

*And it's not foolish to put yourself out there to help in another's time of need. That is called being human and having integrity. Only a fool will turn their back and walk away from a person in need of help. *


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## RocketMedic (Oct 14, 2011)

There's a few million Jews alive today because brave men and women had the courage to face Death and say "no, I will not yield, I will stand against this." That's just one example. 

Danger is a part of life, especially in our chosen profession. Whether it is deliberate violence, a horrible accident, or some sort of pathogen or environmental threat, it's there. A key part of being a medic is helping people in spite of danger. I don't think that that stops when I clock out. 


Am I going to be tubing people off-duty? Of course not. But if the opportunity to help someone in need without an obvious and unmanageable life threat to myself presents itself, I'm not going to stand by idly (or worse, ignore it). If I'm ever in that circumstance, I'd want someone to help me.


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## Fish (Oct 14, 2011)

18G said:


> That is a really extremist view and sounds like a cop out to me.
> 
> It's very said that your Aunt lost her life aiding someone in need along a roadway, but it's unfair to affect the rest of humanity because of one lost life. Instead of having her life be lost in vein why not use it as an example of unselfishness and use it to raise an awareness within yourself. Use it to be more cautious and perform a better scene assessment to protect yourself in such situations.
> 
> ...



Well Said


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## Sasha (Oct 14, 2011)

Oh yes. Stopping and the holocaust. Totally the same thing. 

Like i said. Its my choice not to stop, and i wont stop. I will call 911 and continue on my merry little way. Youre not gonna sway me no.matter how much you try to dehumanize me.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## Altered Mental Status (Oct 14, 2011)

I agree that we have a _moral_ duty to act, even when we don't have an ethical one.

However, I'm really green. My Program Director for the EMP program here in Mobile has been doing this for _years_ and even though sometimes I don't agree with him and I think he can be a jerk sometimes, I have tonnes of respect for him, his methods, his professionalism, his ethics and his obvious concern for his PTs.

He has stated on numerous occasions that he doesn't put any EMT markings on his vehicle and only keeps a basic first aid kit, a bulb syringe and a pair of gloves in the ashtray. He cares about infants and children. When he's off-duty, we adults can fend for ourselves. I tend to believe that he's a smart man and has been around the block long enough to know the answer to this dilemma.

There's a valid concern with protecting one's own family from consequences related to your profession. This job, while it is our livelihood (and an honorable, rewarding one at that), is our _job_. It's what we do because we can't be independently wealthy philanthropists all day long. We have a responsibility to protect loved ones from legal malfeasance.

Going "off the grid" to help someone means you're working without Medical Direction. That means it's YOUR ***, not the Doc's and not a hospital with a ginormous tort department and standard operating procedures for handling such. Furthermore, there's a very good _reason_ for Medical Control. We can't know _everything_.

It's about balance. I would definitely stop but ONLY if I saw my fellow man in immediate, emergent need with no other more-reasonable options. I also agree with the sentiment that we should offer BLS (CPR, ABCs and C-Spine. No assisting with meds unless it's glucose) because without a truck & stretcher (for positioning), AED, SpO2, Hi-flow O2, and (the most important piece of safety equipment) a PARTNER, I have no way to provide and ensure _complete and proper_ prehospital care. What happens if one of my interventions was wrong? What happens if the PT worsens and I really should have had an extra set of hands before I started? These things have a way of turning into a :censored::censored::censored::censored:-sandwich real quick without help, proper Dx tools, accountability and documentation.

It is _part_ of our protocols to ensure:
-Personal safety (Scene safety and standard precautions)
-Competently-executed PT assessment using the proper tools for the job
-the RIGHT interventions
-Proper documentation including witnesses
-That we don't assume care for a PT we can not execute properly or complete--that we not abandon or transfer care improperly.

We'd be doing our PT and our livelihood a disservice without good judgment and balance.


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## Sasha (Oct 14, 2011)

Scene safe. Bsi! 

Apparently some of you forgot one of the most fundamental teachings in emt and p school 

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## the_negro_puppy (Oct 14, 2011)

I carry nothing and would only stop to help in extreme situations I.E cardiac arrest. I would be very hesitant to stop at the scene of an MVA, especially if there are other there already.


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## adamjh3 (Oct 14, 2011)

There is a very definite difference between little Johnny fell right next to you and skinned his knee and an MVA. I think those of you who seem to be having this knee jerk reaction against those of us who say we wouldn't stop are of the view that we are all heartless souls who would never help anyone ever unless we're getting paid for it. 

I've helped people off duty. I'm sure others of my point of view have, too. But I won't deliberately go out of my way looking for people to help or put myself in danger to help someone else, r spend money on equipment specifically helping strangers. I didn't put them in the situation, why should I get them out of it without proper resources backing me up?


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## Handsome Robb (Oct 14, 2011)

It's pretty foolish to put YOUR family through suffering so a stranger might get another chance due to you taking unnecessary risks.

I'm with Sasha on this. Like I said I have stopped before but you better give me a really good reason to and I better be as comfy as a bump is when its on a log.

Like someone else said, I'll be much more willing if it's a child than I am if its an adult.


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## Altered Mental Status (Oct 14, 2011)

the_negro_puppy said:


> I carry nothing and would only stop to help in extreme situations I.E cardiac arrest. I would be very hesitant to stop at the scene of an MVA, especially if there are other there already.



I feel like there's a very high statistical likelihood of blame-shifting and tort malfeasance at a MVC scene. 

If you're the first on-scene, you are also not ensuring personal safety from a statistically high cause of EMT injury and death: other curious motorists not paying attention.

If there _are_ other personnel on-scene already, 99% of the time, they have it covered. You stopping just makes you a busybody.

Judgment. Stop if you must but make sure it's both necessary and right.


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## abckidsmom (Oct 14, 2011)

adamjh3 said:


> There is a very definite difference between little Johnny fell right next to you and skinned his knee and an MVA. I think those of you who seem to be having this knee jerk reaction against those of us who say we wouldn't stop are of the view that we are all heartless souls who would never help anyone ever unless we're getting paid for it.
> 
> I've helped people off duty. I'm sure others of my point of view have, too. But I won't deliberately go out of my way looking for people to help or put myself in danger to help someone else, r spend money on equipment specifically helping strangers. I didn't put them in the situation, why should I get them out of it without proper resources backing me up?



See that's the thing.  I see the need for help way more often NOT being a MVA on the highway.  There isn't much I can do for that beyond calling for them without risking way more lives than are likely already in danger by parking my van on the side of the road.

ALL. THE. TIME. I see someone who needs a bandaid, their blood pressure checked, an ice pack, a warm wish, a help up, tons of things, and not necessarily an ambulance.  Most of the time, these are people I know, and I'm already talking to.

Seriously, I use the bag in my car at least twice a week, and restock it at least once a month.  It's just first aid stuff, but I guess it comes with the territory of living in my earthquake-ravaged, tornado- and hurricane-prone hometown that I will need to do a lot of first aid.


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## usafmedic45 (Oct 14, 2011)

> My family would be disappointed, ashamed, and probably angry if I drove past someone in need and did not help. I know I'd be disappointed and ashamed with myself.



I'm pretty sure you're family would be more pissed about having to have the local medical examiner call asking where they can locate your dental records to identify your corpse.



> I agree that we have a moral duty to act, even when we don't have an ethical one.



Our first moral and ethical duty is to protect ourselves and to prevent further harm.  That overrides everything else and anyone who tells you different is either :censored::censored::censored::censored:ing stupid, really green, flat out psychotic or some heady mix of the three.



> Like i said. Its my choice not to stop, and i wont stop. I will call 911 and continue on my merry little way. Youre not gonna sway me no.matter how much you try to dehumanize me.



I'm so proud of you Sasha.



> There's a few million Jews alive today because brave men and women had the courage to face Death and say "no, I will not yield, I will stand against this." That's just one example.



As both a Jew and the descendant of a perpetrator (yeah, let's not go there), don't make my whip out a particular circumcised part of my anatomy and start slapping some sense into over the number of logical and historical fallacies inherent in that argument.  

For starters, the reason there are several million Jews left in the world is mostly because- big :censored::censored::censored::censored:ing shock- not all of them lived in the occupied territories.  New York, Chicago, England to name a few all had huge Jewish populations and not to mention there were large numbers of people who heard what Hitler and his cronies were saying and got the hell out of town before things got worse.  

Yes, there were a lot of brave folks who stuck their necks out for Jews and their actions should not be forgotten but I take great personal and professional offense at the suggestion that we should be expected to lay down our lives without question just because some rank and file newbie with his head so far up his own rectum that he can't even be troubled to fact check his argument for soundness says so.  

If you feel the need to be a hero, go ahead and try to be one.  After the parade and the folding of the flag on your casket, the only people who will remember as anything but a bad example of egregious stupidity will be your family whom you think will be so proud of your actions but ask them how they would feel having to face an empty seat at holidays or seeing your kids growing up without their dad?  I'm pretty sure that sort of crushing and overwhelming sorrow will trump the blessing that is knowing their son died a "hero".  Even if you don't get the glorious line of duty (while not on duty apparently) death you seem to be so hell bent on achieving for yourself, you will succeed in alienating your colleagues and slowly bleed your career dry.



> And it's not foolish to put yourself out there to help in another's time of need. That is called being human and having integrity. Only a fool will turn their back and walk away from a person in need of help.



Risk a little to save a lot, risk a little to save a little, risk nothing to save that which is already lost. 



> Part of what makes us human is that we will risk everything to help a total stranger.



No, what makes us human is our prefrontal cortex which I am beginning to doubt is fully functional in your case.



> Even if I were injured or killed I feel that it its appropriate for me to help



Make sure your organ donor card is signed and ready to go.  Also you might want to go ahead and get fingerprinted, keep that  and have annually updated copy of your dental records in a big manila envelope to help make the local authorities job of identifying your charred and/or battered carcass a little easier.



> I would have a hard time dealing with a preventable death that I could have helped prevent had I acted...ie the recent Utah motorcyclist.



Wow....that's pretty damn egotistical of you given that most trauma deaths are not preventable even with ideal surgical care immediately.  



> You give one bad example.. but what about the 100 good examples for that one? I think your letting emotion overrule your head.



How about you actually get some real data and show that bystander first aid is actually livesaving in more cases than people are killed or injured assisting every year?   There are so few things that are truly immediately lethal that simply alerting the authorities and carrying on your way is not likely to do anymore harm and is far less risky than stopping and getting involved directly.



> but I thought it was innate in us to strive to save a life and go the extra mile that an ordinary citizen won't



Nah, that's just BS from TV and movies.  



> What would your Aunt want you to do now? Make the effort or be selfish?


Nothing like a pointless plea to emotion.....we'll never know what she would do know because she's dead as a result of her decision at the time.



> but it's unfair to affect the rest of humanity because of one lost life.



Not to sound like a rehashing of our last debate but: how many dead people does it take to make a point?   A dead or injured bystander- off duty provider or not- isn't worth the small benefit of comforting someone or having them stand and look at (or perhaps flog) a corpse.



> Instead of having her life be lost in vein why not use it as an example of unselfishness and use it to raise an awareness within yourself.



"Selflessness" is the word you were looking for.  She didn't die in vain if someone learns not to make the same mistake she did.



> I don't think that that stops when I clock out.



Give it a few years, that will change.  If not, there's always Thorazine.


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## usalsfyre (Oct 14, 2011)

abckidsmom said:


> See that's the thing.  I see the need for help way more often NOT being a MVA on the highway.  There isn't much I can do for that beyond calling for them without risking way more lives than are likely already in danger by parking my van on the side of the road.
> 
> ALL. THE. TIME. I see someone who needs a bandaid, their blood pressure checked, an ice pack, a warm wish, a help up, tons of things, and not necessarily an ambulance.  Most of the time, these are people I know, and I'm already talking to.
> 
> Seriously, I use the bag in my car at least twice a week, and restock it at least once a month.  It's just first aid stuff, but I guess it comes with the territory of living in my earthquake-ravaged, tornado- and hurricane-prone hometown that I will need to do a lot of first aid.



This is incredibly true. But it's not the kind of situation your typical wacker is likely to be a part of, because it's not glamorous.


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## Handsome Robb (Oct 14, 2011)

abckidsmom said:


> by parking my van on the side of the road.



Just rember the fend-off position!! Yea, I paid attention during the ops lecture 




			
				adamjh3 said:
			
		

> I think those of you who seem to be having this knee jerk reaction against those of us who say we wouldn't stop are of the view that we are all heartless souls who would never help anyone ever unless we're getting paid for it.



I like your style.


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## usafmedic45 (Oct 14, 2011)

usalsfyre said:


> This is incredibly true. But it's not the kind of situation your typical wacker is likely to be a part of, because it's not glamorous.



Bingo.  Those are the ones folks like Rocketmedic would never even notice because there's so little chance of a banner headline and front page picture of him charging away from an exploding car clutching a pair of Siamese twins barely clinging to life and only then as a result of his ability to hold a jaw thrust on both of them simultaneously while sprinting.  :rofl:


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## Altered Mental Status (Oct 14, 2011)

abckidsmom said:


> See that's the thing.  I see the need for help way more often NOT being a MVA on the highway.  There isn't much I can do for that beyond calling for them without risking way more lives than are likely already in danger by parking my van on the side of the road.
> 
> ALL. THE. TIME. I see someone who needs a bandaid, their blood pressure checked, an ice pack, a warm wish, a help up, tons of things, and not necessarily an ambulance.  Most of the time, these are people I know, and I'm already talking to.
> 
> Seriously, I use the bag in my car at least twice a week, and restock it at least once a month.  It's just first aid stuff, but I guess it comes with the territory of living in my earthquake-ravaged, tornado- and hurricane-prone hometown that I will need to do a lot of first aid.



That's wonderful...and it's exemplary of good judgment. I have a sphyg, cheap steth, pen light, kerlex, sam splint, OTC oral glucose, BG meter with disposable lancets, chewable aspirin, bulb syringe, bite stick, trauma shears, burn blanket, bottle of saline for flushing out wounds/eyes, tweezers, CPR mask, liquid children's preparation dyphenhydramine, box of 8 nutrile gloves, size M and alllll the typical mommy first aid goodies. I will probably add OPAs and NPAs when I get around to it.

If my kid or someone I love goes down, I will be angry with myself if I know what interventions need be made and I don't have the tools.

It is MY CHOICE whether to risk stopping and using them on a stranger and I like it that way. I trust myself and my integrity and my own good heart.


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## usafmedic45 (Oct 14, 2011)

> Just rember the fend-off position!!



Yeah....van full of kids.  Great idea.  "Well officer, I figured it was better them than me! SCENE SAFETY!"


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## usalsfyre (Oct 14, 2011)

As an aside...the hero mentality has caused way too many funerals in both the career fields I've been in. I'm incredibly sick of putting good people in the ground because they think they have to live up to a pie in the sky ideal.


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## Sasha (Oct 14, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> I'm pretty sure you're family would be more pissed about having to have the local medical examiner call asking where they can locate your dental records to identify your corpse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bravo.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## abckidsmom (Oct 14, 2011)

usalsfyre said:


> This is incredibly true. But it's not the kind of situation your typical wacker is likely to be a part of, because it's not glamorous.



I had the most glamorous save of my career as a bystander and the patient as well as the responding crew just blew me off.   What a let down. 

Get this, Joe Whacker:  it's not awesome.  Nobody cares about how cool you are.  It's just bandaids and doing the next thing.

I think the huge take home from this is that we should do exactly what we feel we should in the situations as they present themselves.  I've stopped, I've driven past, I've helped, and I've turned my head.  Every situation is different, and requires the judgment of that day, with all the variables considered.

This is not a topic which can be resolved through debate because it just varies.


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## usafmedic45 (Oct 14, 2011)

> It is MY CHOICE whether to risk stopping and using them on a stranger and I like it that way. I trust myself and my integrity and my own good heart.



That is the right attitude.  It is a personal choice.  My main gripe with the people I took to task earlier is simply the "Well, if you don't do as I do ethically, you're a horrible human being" attitude. 

You need to keep in mind that my decision tree for offering assistance while off duty pretty much consists of:
1-Is the victim a kid or an animal? Yes: Help them if it can be done safely No: Go to question 2
2-Do I know the person? Yes: Go to question 4 No: Go to question 3
3- Am I stuck in the situation/do other bystanders know that I'm medically trained? Yes- Help them if it can be done safely No- Go to question 4
4-Do I like the person? Yes: Help them if it can be done safely No: Do not get involved even if it means standing idly by; thank God for no statuatory requirement to render care


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## usafmedic45 (Oct 14, 2011)

Sasha said:


> Bravo.
> 
> Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk



Danke.


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## Handsome Robb (Oct 14, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> Yeah....van full of kids.  Great idea.  "Well officer, I figured it was better them than me! SCENE SAFETY!"



Yea that was my poor attempt at humor...not a serious statement.


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## usafmedic45 (Oct 14, 2011)

NVRob said:


> Yea that was my poor attempt at humor...not a serious statement.



Likewise.


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## abckidsmom (Oct 14, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> Yeah....van full of kids.  Great idea.  "Well officer, I figured it was better them than me! SCENE SAFETY!"



They are all properly restrained in Child Passenger Seats!  The 2 year old is even rear-facing!  They were so SAFE, Officer!


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## usafmedic45 (Oct 14, 2011)

You know...the 2 year old could totally see the car coming.


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## Handsome Robb (Oct 14, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> Likewise.



Dude I'm just failing left and right tonight.


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## 18G (Oct 14, 2011)

I don't think anybody is saying stop at every fender-bender you see and offer assistance. Do I do that? Of course not. But if it look's bad than I will stop. 

One example, about 5am one morning on my way to work at a FD... daylight is just barely breaking. I catch out of the very corner of my eye what looks like steam on the side of the road... it was just a slight glimpse but I've seen it enough to know what it looked like which was a car into a utility pole. I could have maintained the attitude of many on this forum and kept going.. heaven forbid I'm late for work because of someone else, right?

So, I turn around and low and behold it's a very mangled car smack into a utility pole. I found an unconscious 18 y/o male hanging half way out of the drivers seat with a seat belt pulled tight across his chest which was inhibiting respiration almost to the point of apnea, lacerations, and head injury. I also encountered an 18 y/o female distraught sitting on the hood of the vehicle... she actually crawled up on the hood from the inside of the vehicle after the windshield was knocked out on impact.   

Long story short, I cut the seat belt and free the driver... patient is still not breathing well. Airway is opened, OPA inserted, and start ventilating with a BVM. By this time a neighbor comes out with a cordless phone, I tell the neighbor to call 911 and inform them an EMT is on the scene and to start aviation.. the EOC listened and started the helicopter. EMS arrives, I give them a report, they end up intubating the patient and fly to a trauma center. 

This kid's mother somehow ended up hearing about what happened and the care I rendered to her son. She called the State Police to get my name. After she got my name she called my EMS station and talked to the EMS Chief to get my phone# so she could call and thank me personally. Not only that, but both the mom and the patient I helped save came to the station when I was working to thank me personally. They even wanted to take a picture with me. 

If I hadn't stopped at that scene the outcome could have been completely different. That patient would not have tolerated being asphyxiated by his seatbelt much longer. 

So to those who would have kept driving, you would have sealed this kids fate and made his mother visit the cemetery instead of a fire house to thank someone who thought enough about her son to put fourth a little effort to prevent that from happening. 

If it's ever one of my kids in an accident, I hope and pray that someone will care enough about their life to stop and help. 

I honestly don't get it people, I really don't. To turn your face like you saw nothing and keep driving and going about your day while someone else lay dying. I'm not sure it goes much lower than that.


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## usafmedic45 (Oct 14, 2011)

> So to those who would have kept driving, you would have sealed this kids fate and made his mother visit the cemetery instead of a fire house to thank someone who thought enough about her son to put fourth a little effort to prevent that from happening.



n=1.  Just like how you could just as easily say it was the helicopter transport that saved the person, there are too many variables in this case to say that the patient would have died because of someone just calling it in or which intervention (if any) made the difference.


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## Handsome Robb (Oct 14, 2011)

Your not reading what we are writing... That's an extreme circumstance.

I'm leaving this thread before I say something stupid and get myself into trouble.


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## 18G (Oct 14, 2011)

NVRob said:


> Your not reading what we are writing... That's an extreme circumstance.
> 
> I'm leaving this thread before I say something stupid and get myself into trouble.



I'm not stupid and I can comprehend. It's been repeated time and time over. Many have said that they ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to stop an an accident scene or render aid in other situations. If you don't stop in the first place than how are you going to know the severity or if it's an extreme circumstance? And why does it even have to qualify as extreme to be worthy of your time?

The general consensus has been 1) People won't stop cause of lawsuit paranoia, and 2) People won't stop cause they may receive injury or get run over by a Grayhound bus while assisting at an accident scene. 

Do I need to provide a count of how many times these two points were stated?


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## 18G (Oct 14, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> n=1.  Just like how you could just as easily say it was the helicopter transport that saved the person, there are too many variables in this case to say that the patient would have died because of someone just calling it in or which intervention (if any) made the difference.



Really? So someone can have ineffective breathing to the point of near apnea in a trauma situation and do just fine by someone calling 911 and delaying intervention for another 10-15mins if not longer?


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## adamjh3 (Oct 14, 2011)

18G said:


> 2) People won't stop cause they may receive injury or get run over by a Grayhound bus while assisting at an accident scene.
> 
> Do I need to provide a count of how many times these two points were stated?



Your point? Why place ourselves at undue risk? How many people will we NOT help after we get smacked by that greyhound because there weren't big flashy lights and there wasn't anything in the way to help deflect an inattentive motorist?

It's a case by case basis just like you said. If I'm going to have to pull across six lanes of traffic on a busy freeway there's no way I'm stopping to check. 

That said, I did stop at one crash. An old guy ran his van into a ditch. It was a low speed semi-residential area with low traffic. I called 911, told him to stay where he was and drove off when the BRT got there. They don't need me. 

You have to look at the totality of the situation. Just like when you're on the ambulance.


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## 18G (Oct 14, 2011)

adamjh3 said:


> Your point? Why place ourselves at undue risk? How many people will we NOT help after we get smacked by that greyhound because there weren't big flashy lights and there wasn't anything in the way to help deflect an inattentive motorist?
> 
> It's a case by case basis just like you said. If I'm going to have to pull across six lanes of traffic on a busy freeway there's no way I'm stopping to check.
> 
> ...



Don't add thought's to my posts. I'm well aware after almost 20yrs as a career EMT and Paramedic and Deputy Chief of EMS operations what scene safety and assessment are and how to calculate risks. I never said be careless and act like a Ricky Rescue. All I'm saying is don't be a **** and help out a fellow human being when they are sick, injured, or dying . And of course use common sense when doing so. But don't be a coward and a selfish douche.


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## Handsome Robb (Oct 14, 2011)

It's not 'being worthy of my time' that is what makes me decide, its the situation presented to me.

Both the points that have been cited repeatedly hold weight. They are very true possibilities.

When did having an EMT certificate mandate that you drop everything and risk everything to help a complete stranger at any time of the day and if you don't do this you become some horrible person? 

Let's agree to disagree.


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## usalsfyre (Oct 14, 2011)

18G said:


> Don't add thought's to my posts. I'm well aware after almost 20yrs as a career EMT and Paramedic and Deputy Chief of EMS operations what scene safety and assessment are and how to calculate risks. I never said be careless and act like a Ricky Rescue. All I'm saying is don't be a **** and help out a fellow human being when they are sick, injured, or dying . And of course use common sense when doing so. But don't be a coward and a selfish douche.


By the same token, don't be the douche that imposes their values system on others. 

Coward is a pretty strong word, one that's gotten more than a few people killed.


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## 18G (Oct 14, 2011)

usalsfyre said:


> By the same token, don't be the douche that  imposes their values system on others.
> 
> Coward is a pretty strong word, one that's gotten more than a few people killed.



Is the preservation of life really a lost value? You believe that? Sad.


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## usafmedic45 (Oct 14, 2011)

> Really? So someone can have ineffective breathing to the point of near apnea in a trauma situation and do just fine by someone calling 911 and delaying intervention for another 10-15mins if not longer?



You have a really :censored::censored::censored::censored: EMS system if it takes 15 minutes to get even first responders on scene.  I used to work a very rural area and it was a huge deal if we had more than a 7 minute response time until the first person marked on scene.  We averaged five to six minutes because we had someone assigned to get the vehicle(s) and if anyone else was responding and was closer, they went direct to the scene.

BTW, I can and will stop in extreme circumstances (I almost always stop for injured animals).  However, it's a personal choice and I wasn't so offended by your comments as I was RocketMedic's.


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## adamjh3 (Oct 14, 2011)

18G said:


> Don't add thought's to my posts. I'm well aware after almost 20yrs as a career EMT and Paramedic and Deputy Chief of EMS operations what scene safety and assessment are and how to calculate risks. I never said be careless and act like a Ricky Rescue. All I'm saying is don't be a **** and help out a fellow human being when they are sick, injured, or dying . And of course use common sense when doing so. But don't be a coward and a selfish douche.



You made your stance, and gave an extreme example. I'm trying to convey that it's not as black and white as "help someone and you're a hero, drive on and you're a cowardly, selfish douche." 

I think we agree and don't realize it. 







I'm bowing out of this before I get in trouble.


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## usafmedic45 (Oct 14, 2011)

> But don't be a coward and a selfish douche.



Not getting involved does not make one a coward anymore than getting involved makes someone a troglodytic tool. 



> Is the preservation of life really a lost value? You believe that? Sad.



No, it's just a difference in opinion over what constitutes an acceptable effort to attempt to preserve life.  Risk nothing to save that which is already lost and risk very little for that which has little chance of a good outcome. 



> When did having an EMT certificate mandate that you drop everything and risk everything to help a complete stranger at any time of the day and if you don't do this you become some horrible person?



Usually, right between the time someone decided it was a good way to compensate for other shortcomings and the time it became a lifestyle instead of a job.


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## usalsfyre (Oct 14, 2011)

18G said:


> Is the preservation of life really a lost value? You believe that? Sad.


How many lives are legitimately saved by off-duty personnel stopping at wrecks? I'd wager less than 100 a year, meaning I could easily go my whole life and never run into this situation. 

You've made your choice. I don't fault you for that. I'm not saying I'd never stop, but I don't routinely stop at even "bad looking" accidents simply because it's rarely helpful and modern vehicles are deceiving damage wise. I don't feel the need to carry equipment because of this. However in your eyes I'm a cowardly selfish douche. I take offense to that.


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## usafmedic45 (Oct 14, 2011)

adamjh3 said:


> You made your stance, and gave an extreme example. I'm trying to convey that it's not as black and white as "help someone and you're a hero, drive on and you're a cowardly, selfish douche."
> 
> I think we agree and don't realize it.
> 
> ...



Likewise, unless there is something further to be discussed of a productive nature.


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## 18G (Oct 14, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> You have a really :censored::censored::censored::censored: EMS system if it takes 15 minutes to get even first responders on scene.  I used to work a very rural area and it was a huge deal if we had more than a 7 minute response time until the first person marked on scene.  We averaged five to six minutes because we had someone assigned to get the vehicle(s) and if anyone else was responding and was closer, they went direct to the scene.
> 
> BTW, I can and will stop in extreme circumstances (I almost always stop for injured animals).  However, it's a personal choice and I wasn't so offended by your comments as I was RocketMedic's.



I'm not pissed at any specific person, it's just the overall tone being presented in this thread like people are too good to be bothered with another person's problem when they are off-duty. Life is far from perfect and :censored::censored::censored::censored: happens. We deal with it. What goes around, comes around. 

As far as the response time I was talking from the time it actually happened. From time of dispatch I know the ALS unit was on scene less than 5 mins cause their station was right down the road. I got there right after it happened. So yeah... if I kept going... 10mins for neighbor to come out, process, call 911, dispatch, crew goes responding... it would have been more time than the patient had.


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## RocketMedic (Oct 15, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> n=1.  Just like how you could just as easily say it was the helicopter transport that saved the person, there are too many variables in this case to say that the patient would have died because of someone just calling it in or which intervention (if any) made the difference.



And you, usaf, well...I really, really am glad that you're not in my unit, my Army, or my half of Texas. It's attitudes like yours that make people lose faith in humanity. I wouldn't want you working on me, my family, my friends, or my patients. 

When was the last time you got under a sliding MRAP to slip in and extricate your gunner into the vehicle before his arm was crushed by a crumpling turrent shield? By your ethics, I should have let that young man lose an arm instead of risking myself a little. I'm glad I'm not you.


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## RocketMedic (Oct 15, 2011)

18G said:


> Really? So someone can have ineffective breathing to the point of near apnea in a trauma situation and do just fine by someone calling 911 and delaying intervention for another 10-15mins if not longer?



Of course! Air isn't important if it comes from an off-duty medic.


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## adamjh3 (Oct 15, 2011)

Rocketmedic40 said:


> And you, usaf, well...I really, really am glad that you're not in my unit, my Army, or my half of Texas. It's attitudes like yours that make people lose faith in humanity. I wouldn't want you working on me, my family, my friends, or my patients.
> 
> When was the last time you got under a sliding MRAP to slip in and extricate your gunner into the vehicle before his arm was crushed by a crumpling turrent shield? By your ethics, I should have let that young man lose an arm instead of risking myself a little. I'm glad I'm not you.



I know I said I was bowing out but...

It's about the totality of the circumstances. People are giving extreme examples, and yours in an even more atypical environment. Of course you'll jump in and do everything you can to help the people you fight for your life with every single day. I would and I'm sure USAF would, too. 

No one is saying " :censored: the world, I'm not getting paid so you can all burn" but it's being contorted that way.


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## Fish (Oct 15, 2011)

My gripe is not about people not stopping at Fender Benders, I don't stop at fender benders. My gripe is those on this thread who would rather look the other way then grab the AED and provide CPR when the dude next to you on the treadmill at the gym goes into cardiac arrest during his workout. I vote we stop talking about car wrecks since "usually" an off duty person cannot do much to really make a difference in this situation. No one on this thread is bad mouthing those who will not run across lanes of freeway traffic to make sure the Minor MVC doesn't yield any stiff necks. But, we are dissapointed to hear some people would rather watch someone die then "possibly get sued"


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## RocketMedic (Oct 15, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> You have a really :censored::censored::censored::censored: EMS system if it takes 15 minutes to get even first responders on scene.  I used to work a very rural area and it was a huge deal if we had more than a 7 minute response time until the first person marked on scene.  We averaged five to six minutes because we had someone assigned to get the vehicle(s) and if anyone else was responding and was closer, they went direct to the scene.
> 
> BTW, I can and will stop in extreme circumstances (I almost always stop for injured animals).  However, it's a personal choice and I wasn't so offended by your comments as I was RocketMedic's.



You have NO IDEA what 'rural' can be. In my system, we can literally go an hour between call and arrival at scene.

And usaf, it's a proven fact that millions of European Jews and their descendents are alive today because of brave soldiers and civilians who resisted the Nazi regime. Would Jews be extinct? No, but millions of people would be dead if it weren't for the sacrifices of those who fought to free them from concentration camps. If you're offended by that, you need to check yourself.


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## RocketMedic (Oct 15, 2011)

adamjh3 said:


> I know I said I was bowing out but...
> 
> It's about the totality of the circumstances. People are giving extreme examples, and yours in an even more atypical environment. Of course you'll jump in and do everything you can to help the people you fight for your life with every single day. I would and I'm sure USAF would, too.
> 
> No one is saying " :censored: the world, I'm not getting paid so you can all burn" but it's being contorted that way.



With his comments and attitude, I don't think that he would. Hence why I wouldn't want him in-theater with me or my guys. If you're not willing to take a few manageable risks to help another, you need to get out of this business.


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## usalsfyre (Oct 15, 2011)

Fish said:


> My gripe is not about people not stopping at Fender Benders, I don't stop at fender benders. My gripe is those on this thread who would rather look the other way then grab the AED and provide CPR when the dude next to you on the treadmill at the gym goes into cardiac arrest during his workout. I vote we stop talking about car wrecks since "usually" an off duty person cannot do much to really make a difference in this situation. No one on this thread is bad mouthing those who will not run across lanes of freeway traffic to make sure the Minor MVC doesn't yield any stiff necks. But, we are dissapointed to hear some people would rather watch someone die then "possibly get sued"



I think part of the problem is this discussion always ends up about MVCs because like I said, it's glamorous.

I think most of us would perform CPR in the above scenario, just like offering band-aids/first aid if we had them for minor stuff.


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## usalsfyre (Oct 15, 2011)

Rocketmedic40 said:


> With his comments and attitude, I don't think that he would. Hence why I wouldn't want him in-theater with me or my guys. If you're not willing to take a few manageable risks to help another, you need to get out of this business.



I wouldn't call being on the roadway at night, with no blocking and nothing to enhance my visibility a manageable risk. 

Every year a lot of LODD result from what people thought were managable risk.


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## RocketMedic (Oct 15, 2011)

usalsfyre said:


> I wouldn't call being on the roadway at night, with no blocking and nothing to enhance my visibility a manageable risk.
> 
> Every year a lot of LODD result from what people thought were managable risk.



That's when your contribution may be as little as deploying warning equipment or signalling traffic from a safe location. I'm not saying every helper should bolt straight to the scene and dive in.


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## Fish (Oct 15, 2011)

usalsfyre said:


> I think part of the problem is this discussion always ends up about MVCs because like I said, it's glamorous.
> 
> I think most of us would perform CPR in the above scenario, just like offering band-aids/first aid if we had them for minor stuff.



Right, most of us would. But there are people in this thread who have straight up said they would not. And thats horrible.


Anyway, I am pulling out of this thread. Don't want to get kicked out of this forum!


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## RocketMedic (Oct 15, 2011)

Same here. I've got better things to do.


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## Handsome Robb (Oct 15, 2011)

Fish said:


> Right, most of us would. But there are people in this thread who have straight up said they would not. And thats horrible.
> 
> 
> Anyway, I am pulling out of this thread. Don't want to get kicked out of this forum!



I haven't seen a single person say that. 

You all blew this way out of proportion.

Someone lock this crap please.


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## Sasha (Oct 15, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> That is the right attitude.  It is a personal choice.  My main gripe with the people I took to task earlier is simply the "Well, if you don't do as I do ethically, you're a horrible human being" attitude.



Right? My little bleeding heart, feed the homeless, and protect the baby eaters self is a coward and not even human because i dont want to risk my life for a stranger, i would call 911 and keep driving in the event of an accident. Cause those are never dangerous.

I wish nomofica would pop onto this thread. His career ending injury on the scene of an accident would give good perspective. Hes not gonna be helping anyone now, what a selfish jerk. He should work through the pain. Afterall people could die.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## Sasha (Oct 15, 2011)

That last bit was sarcasm, btw.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## Altered Mental Status (Oct 15, 2011)

18G said:


> I don't think anybody is saying stop at every fender-bender you see and offer assistance. Do I do that? Of course not. But if it look's bad than I will stop.
> 
> One example, about 5am one morning on my way to work at a FD... daylight is just barely breaking. I catch out of the very corner of my eye what looks like steam on the side of the road... it was just a slight glimpse but I've seen it enough to know what it looked like which was a car into a utility pole. I could have maintained the attitude of many on this forum and kept going.. heaven forbid I'm late for work because of someone else, right?
> 
> ...



This is a wonderful story. It' also most likely the minority.

What would have happened if you'd gotten there 5 minutes later? Possibly kid would have asphyxiated, you'd have BVMd him and he'd have suffered irreparable hypoxia and brain damage regardless of your interventions. Mom wouldn't have understood and you'd have been sued. With no Medical Control, you'd be a sitting duck. Mom would be in agony and would always wonder if you were the one who messed up her kid.

That would be a _tragedy_. You seem like a top-notch EMT...one I certainly would want on MY truck.


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## IRIDEZX6R (Oct 15, 2011)

Altered Mental Status said:


> This is a wonderful story. It' also most likely the minority.
> 
> What would have happened if you'd gotten there 5 minutes later? Possibly kid would have asphyxiated, you'd have BVMd him and he'd have suffered irreparable hypoxia and brain damage regardless of your interventions. Mom wouldn't have understood and you'd have been sued. With no Medical Control, you'd be a sitting duck. Mom would be in agony and would always wonder if you were the one who messed up her kid.
> 
> That would be a _tragedy_. You seem like a top-notch EMT...one I certainly would want on MY truck.



This is one of those issues.. I'd have to go with my gut... I carry malpractice insurance... For myself, not through my employer... just in case...


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## Gray (Oct 15, 2011)

I keep some gloves, 4 x4's and a few band-aids etc in my car, for my use or family's use. Anyone else gets a 911 call. Sorry I am not about to get sued for being nice.


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## ArcticKat (Oct 15, 2011)

*I am appalled...*

I have a F/A kit in my cars, plane, and boat.  The last two are legally required.  

If I saw someone in distress I will stop to help, and I am gonna stop to help now.

I am disgusted with those of you who call Sasha, Dixie, Epi, et al names because they choose not to stop and assist.

I choose to stop, they do not.  It is their right to make that choice.  Calling them names because they choose not to stop is immature, irresponsible, and unprofessional.  

It is unfortunate that the OP couldn't have just put up a poll and locked the thread to comments, because all he wanted to know is if we carry one, not all this judging and egotistical finger pointing.

I'm disappointed that these people who could help choose not to, but I'm more disappointed in those of you who think you're better than them because you will.


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## abckidsmom (Oct 15, 2011)

arctickat said:


> i have a f/a kit in my cars, plane, and boat.  The last two are legally required.
> 
> If i saw someone in distress i will stop to help, and i am gonna stop to help now.
> 
> ...



amen.


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## usafmedic45 (Oct 15, 2011)

> When was the last time you got under a sliding MRAP to slip in and extricate your gunner into the vehicle before his arm was crushed by a crumpling turrent shield? By your ethics, I should have let that young man lose an arm instead of risking myself a little. I'm glad I'm not you.



Combat's a different ballgame entirely.  Apples to oranges.  Not to mention that if someone's arm has already been crushed, there's pathetically little one can do on scene to save it.  Apply a tourniquet, get the patient evacuated and let someone with surgical expertise evaluate it.  It doesn't take a medic to do any of those things which is one reason why it was taught in the courses I used to provide to an Army unit I was temporarily assigned to.  



> That's when your contribution may be as little as deploying warning equipment or signalling traffic from a safe location. I'm not saying every helper should bolt straight to the scene and dive in.



Getting out and tossing flares isn't much safer and I don't know many of us who are carrying around reflective vests to wear while signaling traffic.



> Right, most of us would. But there are people in this thread who have straight up said they would not. And thats horrible.



Who has said that in the situation of a collapsed person at a health club?  Those of us who said we would not help are saying we are not stopping alongside a pitch black country road or busy six-lane interstate and risking becoming a hood ornament for a Peterbilt or the next drunk driver to pass by.  CPR is a low-risk event  with a decent chance of maybe helping (given that an AED is nearby) where as the chances of being able to do anything but either look at a dead body or tell the driver help (that is actually make a difference) is on the way at an MVC is exceptionally rare, which is why folks like 18G bring up the rare cases they personally have encountered rather than bringing out scientific evidence to indicate that we should stop.

In other words, please stop being melodramatic or assuming facts not in evidence.



> Anyway, I am pulling out of this thread. Don't want to get kicked out of this forum!



Relax.....it's a debate, not an argument and the moderators here are pretty level-headed. 



> And usaf, it's a proven fact that millions of European Jews and their descendents are alive today because of brave soldiers and civilians who resisted the Nazi regime.



Soldiers are different from unarmed/underarmed civilians which is what I believed you were talking about.  Trust me, I know the history of WWII a hell of a lot better than you do.  



> If you're offended by that, you need to check yourself.



I'm offended by your inability to think non-linearly, not come up with valid comparisons for disparate circumstances and your fatalistic approach to doing our jobs.  

By the way, thank you for your service from one veteran to another.


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## epipusher (Oct 16, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> I'm offended by your inability to think non-linearly, not come up with valid comparisons for disparate circumstances and your fatalistic approach to doing our jobs.
> 
> By the way, thank you for your service from one veteran to another.


 This pretty much sums it all up. Well said, along with your previous posts. Bravo to Sasha as well.

edit: I'm not a veteran, but thanks for your service as well.


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## Tigger (Oct 16, 2011)

Rocketmedic40 said:


> .
> 
> When was the last time you got under a sliding MRAP to slip in and extricate your gunner into the vehicle before his arm was crushed by a crumpling turrent shield? By your ethics, I should have let that young man lose an arm instead of risking myself a little. I'm glad I'm not you.



Um never? I'm not a veteran or in the a service (but my sincerest thanks for yours). How does this situation relate at all to the sea of rendering aid off duty? Honestly, I am unable to draw any meaningful parallels.


Sent from my out of area communications device.


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## ffemt8978 (Oct 16, 2011)

Okay, this thread has gone far enough off topic.  Back on topic, please.


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## dash (Oct 16, 2011)

I carry a large amount of kit  in my car, thus is mainly due to the private work I do. I think its worth noting at the risk of going off topic again over here paramedics, nurses & doctors are all "registered health care professionals" and can be struck off for not rendering aid to someone that needs it. Off duty this means you do what ever you can with the kit you have if that is just you then that's what you do. 

I get the feeling I will have some offensive tag given to me because I have an aed, o2 and a first aid kit in my car and have stopped and will stop in the future, you people having a go at people for calling you cowards are just as bad as calling me a wacker/glory hunter is just as bad. 

It also doesn't mean I am not as able to my job.

If I get chance I will take some photos of the stuff in my boot..


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## abckidsmom (Oct 16, 2011)

dash said:


> I carry a large amount of kit  in my car, thus is mainly due to the private work I do. I think its worth noting at the risk of going off topic again over here paramedics, nurses & doctors are all "registered health care professionals" and can be struck off for not rendering aid to someone that needs it. Off duty this means you do what ever you can with the kit you have if that is just you then that's what you do.
> 
> I get the feeling I will have some offensive tag given to me because I have an aed, o2 and a first aid kit in my car and have stopped and will stop in the future, you people having a go at people for calling you cowards are just as bad as calling me a wacker/glory hunter is just as bad.
> 
> ...



Honestly, I thought the general sentiment had just swung around to "you do what you think is right, and we aren't going to sit here in judgment."

There are no penalties for registered health care providers not rendering aid in my state, I'm not sure of the others, but I'd be surprised if there were any at all.


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## dash (Oct 16, 2011)

abckidsmom said:


> Honestly, I thought the general sentiment had just swung around to "you do what you think is right, and we aren't going to sit here in judgment."
> 
> There are no penalties for registered health care providers not rendering aid in my state, I'm not sure of the others, but I'd be surprised if there were any at all.



I understand that I wouldn't stop on a motorway with 4 lanes plus of fast moving traffic with out disco lights and it was safe for me to do so the same way it would be if I was in a ambulance.

I don't know about any other countries but its a big thing here in the UK...


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## bstone (Oct 16, 2011)

Years ago when I first got my Basic I carried a BLS bag in the car. Never really used it. I lost it somewhere along the way, I think in my 2004 summer road trip over 4 months where I went over 15,000 miles. It was incredible. Anyhow, I carry a pocket CPR mask on my keychain and two pairs of gloves. That's it. No stethoscope, no BP cuff. I do have jumper cables if in case I need to defibrillate someone.


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## Scott33 (Oct 17, 2011)

dash said:


> . I think its worth noting at the risk of going off topic again over here paramedics, nurses & doctors are all "registered health care professionals" *and can be struck off for not rendering aid to someone that needs it. Off duty this means you do what ever you can with the kit you have if that is just you then that's what you do*.



This is completely incorrect. 

There is no legal obligation for UK HCPs to render aid when off duty. This has been discussed at length here and elsewhere - legal obligations and moral obligations are not the same thing.


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## usalsfyre (Oct 17, 2011)

So ran into this situation this evening. Saw a homeless man approaching my car with a large amount of blood running down his arm from a wound I didn't see how he got. He appeared to be agitated. 

Anyone want to jump out if the car and help this guy? For the record I simply dialed 911 and drove away, the bleeding didn't appear to be arterial and I was in the middle of Arlington.


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## Handsome Robb (Oct 17, 2011)

usalsfyre said:


> So ran into this situation this evening. Saw a homeless man approaching my car with a large amount of blood running down his arm from a wound I didn't see how he got. He appeared to be agitated. Anyone want to jump out if the car and help this guy?



He just wanted a hug! 

/sarcasm


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## Sasha (Oct 17, 2011)

usalsfyre said:


> So ran into this situation this evening. Saw a homeless man approaching my car with a large amount of blood running down his arm from a wound I didn't see how he got. He appeared to be agitated.
> 
> Anyone want to jump out if the car and help this guy? For the record I simply dialed 911 and drove away, the bleeding didn't appear to be arterial and I was in the middle of Arlington.



Cheese and rice you heartless jerk. Its a human being and you selfishly put your safety above his. I will have your medic license for this. Didn't you read the EMT Oath on facebook? When you paid for your class you agreed that you will lay down your life for people. Your life is worth less.

Sarcam btw

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## blackhorse (Oct 17, 2011)

Wow, i haven't read through every reply but I have read enough to be shocked at how many could just simply turn a blind eye to someone in need. It's not something I'm capable of, I know I wouldn't be able to live peacefully with my conscious if I didn't at least try to do what I could until someone came to relieve me.


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## Sasha (Oct 17, 2011)

On another note..I got groped in a no no place by a homeless man who may or may not have pooped his pants. Found him on the ground on a median of a busy highway.

On shift. 

Had I not been on shift I wouldnt have stopped.

Even with bright flashy lights and vest my partner almost got mowed down.
Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## bigbaldguy (Oct 17, 2011)

It's easy to say that you wouldn't help if someone needed help in theory. It is quite different when the guy is lying on ground in front of you. If I can help someone even if its just the comfort of having someone there to hold their hand I'll do it. Obviously if the scene is not secure I'd wait till it was before offering to lend a hand.


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## usalsfyre (Oct 17, 2011)

Sasha said:


> On another note..I got groped in a no no place by a homeless man who may or may not have pooped his pants. Found him on the ground on a median of a busy highway.
> 
> On shift.
> 
> ...



Glad to see you attract the winners .


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## Sasha (Oct 17, 2011)

Its foolish and insulting to assume those who have not stopped have never had to make that choice, bbg.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## Handsome Robb (Oct 17, 2011)

blackhorse said:


> Wow, i haven't read through every reply but I have read enough to be shocked at how many could just simply turn a blind eye to someone in need. It's not something I'm capable of, I know I wouldn't be able to live peacefully with my conscious if I didn't at least try to do what I could until someone came to relieve me.



You should read through the thread then.
We said we wouldn't risk our health or safety when not on duty. If you keel over in the supermarket or the gym most are going to be a lot more willing to help but you wont see me on the side of the road at an accident unless I have a giant box with wheels and flashy lights and wingdings there as well.


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## Sasha (Oct 17, 2011)

NVRob said:


> You should read through the thread then.
> We said we wouldn't risk our health or safety when not on duty. If you keel over in the supermarket or the gym most are going to be a lot more willing to help but you wont see me on the side of the road at an accident unless I have a giant box with wheels and flashy lights and wingdings there as well.



Your trucks have wingdings? I want wingdings.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## Handsome Robb (Oct 17, 2011)

Sasha said:


> Your trucks have wingdings? I want wingdings.
> 
> Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk



Wingdings and WooWoos!


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## Sasha (Oct 17, 2011)

I have gotten to operate the woo woos two shifts in a row!

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


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## Handsome Robb (Oct 17, 2011)

Sasha said:


> I have gotten to operate the woo woos two shifts in a row!
> 
> Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk



Your movin up in the world!! Woowoos are fun, annoying though.


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## Scott33 (Oct 18, 2011)

blackhorse said:


> I have read enough to be shocked at how many could just simply turn a blind eye to someone in need. It's not something I'm capable of...



You are worrying too much. A few more years of EMS experience and you will be perfectly capable.


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## Altered Mental Status (Oct 18, 2011)

Sasha said:


> the EMT Oath on facebook?



This is :rofl:


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## Smoke14 (Oct 18, 2011)

blackhorse said:


> Wow, i haven't read through every reply but I have read enough to be shocked at how many could just simply turn a blind eye to someone in need. It's not something I'm capable of, I know I wouldn't be able to live peacefully with my conscious if I didn't at least try to do what I could until someone came to relieve me.



I agree. I refuse to allow an attorney to dictate how I should respond when needed when on or off duty.


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## Sandog (Oct 18, 2011)

This is a snippet from a diary written in a time of turmoil long ago. For me it puts much into perspective.

There would be no tea today. After the fall of Dunkirk there would be no tea for some time, only the screams of sorrow and the bombs that could be heard off in the distance.  With the sounds of the enemy we would hide in the cellars and hoped we would not fall to their whims as the stories were told. No longer was there tea, no longer was there bread. How long must we endure this nightmare that we can never escape.

It has been long now I should think, no longer sure as time no longer has meaning in the darkness. I am hungry, and the sounds of bombs continue.  The school of my youth was just an empty shell now, my father has aged so much, how can he go on so.

The loud sounds I heard outside was not familiar to me, I knew it was not German. Sister and I peaked from the window, American she said. Others in my village were out and dancing in celebration. I was afraid, but sister pulled me tight to greet our saviors, the Americans.


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## dash (Oct 18, 2011)

Scott33 said:


> This is completely incorrect.
> 
> There is no legal obligation for UK HCPs to render aid when off duty. This has been discussed at length here and elsewhere - legal obligations and moral obligations are not the same thing.



Well debatable: 



> General Medical Council’s Good Medical Practice guide, ‘in an emergency doctors must offer anyone at risk the treatment they could reasonably be expected to provide’.





> The New NMC code of conduct states: that nurses and midwives are expected to ‘provide a high standard of practice and care *at all times*’ and ‘make the care of people *your first concern*’.




The HPC standards is a little harder but I am sure if you walked past someone who needed emergency medical care I am sure they would say you would were ask risk of not "making sure that your behaviour does not damage your profession’s reputation."

C


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## cynikalkat (Oct 18, 2011)

bstone said:


> Years ago when I first got my Basic I carried a BLS bag in the car. Never really used it. I lost it somewhere along the way, I think in my 2004 summer road trip over 4 months where I went over 15,000 miles. It was incredible. Anyhow, I carry a pocket CPR mask on my keychain and two pairs of gloves. That's it. No stethoscope, no BP cuff. I do have jumper cables if in case I need to defibrillate someone.



Bstone-jumper cables, love it. :rofl:


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## RocketMedic (Oct 18, 2011)

Personally, yes, I would have seen if I could help that homeless man, absent any evident safety threats.


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## chuck stank (Oct 18, 2011)

Long time lurker here. 
My concern, legality aside, is what would I really be able to help with. Chest compressions, imminent delivery(if I had gloves at least), serious bleeding(again, with gloves), manual stabilization, assist with an active seizure. Fill in the blanks please, but without equipment, meds, and gloves, what else more could I do besides dialing 911?


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## Steam Engine (Oct 18, 2011)

chuck stank said:


> Long time lurker here.
> My concern, legality aside, is what would I really be able to help with. Chest compressions, imminent delivery(if I had gloves at least), serious bleeding(again, with gloves), manual stabilization, assist with an active seizure. Fill in the blanks please, but without equipment, meds, and gloves, what else more could I do besides dialing 911?



Aside from assisting in keeping a patent airway and providing some measure of comfort to the victim, I think you've pretty much got it.


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## NeverSatisfied~NorCal (Oct 19, 2011)

I carry a few small items I deem necessary I.E. gloves, pocket mask and they are in a small bag that is awfully dusty...lol


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## mspazz (Oct 19, 2011)

I carry gloves and a mask in the rear of my vehicle at all times.  I've never had to use them, yet.  Iowa has a really good protections of emergency services workers.


```
IOWA GOOD SAMARITAN 613.17 Emergency assistance in an accident. 

A person, who in good faith renders emergency care or assistance without 

compensation, shall not be liable for any civil damages for acts or omissions

 occurring at the place of an emergency or accident or while the person is in 

transit to or from the emergency or accident or while the person is at or 

being moved to or from an emergency shelter unless such acts or omissions 

constitute recklessness. For purposes of this section, if a volunteer fire fighter, 

a volunteer operator or attendant of an ambulance or rescue squad service, 

a volunteer paramedic, a volunteer emergency medical technician, or 

a volunteer registered member of the national ski patrol system 

receives nominal compensation not based upon the value of the 

services performed, that person shall be considered to be

 receiving no compensation. The operation of a motor vehicle in 

compliance with section 321.231 by a volunteer fire fighter, 

volunteer operator, or attendant of an ambulance or 

rescue squad service, a volunteer paramedic, or volunteer emergency 

medical technician shall be considered rendering emergency care or 

assistance for purposes of this section. For purposes of this section, 

a person rendering emergency care or assistance includes 

a person involved in a workplace rescue arising out of an emergency or accident.
```

tldr; As long as you're not getting paid specifically for the services your render at that time and you act within your scope, you cannot be held liable as long as you're within good faith.


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## Handsome Robb (Oct 19, 2011)

My only issue with it is define 'good faith' ?

My only issue with it is define "good faith" ? I know I'm beating a dead horse :deadhorse: but how is a lawyer going to define "good faith" ?


Think about it. We live in a litigious society. 


My family and I come first, carrying a bag beyond a first aid kit risks


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## mspazz (Oct 19, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> You have a really :censored::censored::censored::censored: EMS system if it takes 15 minutes to get even first responders on scene.  I used to work a very rural area and it was a huge deal if we had more than a 7 minute response time until the first person marked on scene.  We averaged five to six minutes because we had someone assigned to get the vehicle(s) and if anyone else was responding and was closer, they went direct to the scene.
> 
> BTW, I can and will stop in extreme circumstances (I almost always stop for injured animals).  However, it's a personal choice and I wasn't so offended by your comments as I was RocketMedic's.



You have no idea what rural is if the longest response time is 7 mins from a page.  I'm a 911 dispatcher and also an EMT and where I live, response times in one town can be as fast as 2 mins from first page.  There is one transporting ambulance in our county, and if we get a call to a town 22 miles away, it takes about 23 from the time of the page to get there(warranting an emergency response IE lights sirens and exceeding the speed limit)  Also getting a helicopter here from the closest hub (Des Moines) can take 25 mins if they aren't already in the air when we call for them.  This is also a 24 hour staffed hospital ambulance.


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## mspazz (Oct 19, 2011)

NVRob said:


> My only issue with it is define 'good faith' ?
> 
> My only issue with it is define "good faith" ? I know I'm beating a dead horse :deadhorse: but how is a lawyer going to define "good faith" ?
> 
> ...



The only real issue I can see would be if I were to stop, someone put two and two together that I work in EMS in some way/shape/form and I determine that I can't do anything and would leave.  I would stay on scene until I could pass care onto someone at my level or above so I didn't abandon the patient IE negligence.  

A general rule the two services I volunteer on say that if we see an accident we should call 911 and report it, advise them who and what we are, and if they advise us to stop and render aid we can.  Same rule applies if you're enroute to work and see an accident.


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## scaterbrain (Oct 23, 2011)

I keep a trauma kit in my trunk due to the fact that I use it for work and I do alot of firearms training.


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## angrynuni (Oct 29, 2011)

It's a sad state of affairs when potential legal problems interfere with patient care.  Sad but true.

I have no markings, never will.  It's absolutely unnecessary.

I have a bag I keep stocked with BLS equipment, a very small bag.  That said, it would have to be an extreme situation for me to do anything more then stop any serious bleeding or perform compressions.  I'd love to say I'd do an assessment but lets be honest, who ever is on duty is going to do their own anyways (hopefully).

Really though I see it more for personal use.  If I am in a situation where I absolutely have to do something more, I am ready, otherwise I am not getting paid* plus anything else I do on scene will probably be redone by EMS regardless.

*meant both in the "not earning income" way and the "not on duty so not covered by company insurance" way.


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## angrynuni (Oct 29, 2011)

chuck stank said:


> Long time lurker here.
> My concern, legality aside, is what would I really be able to help with. Chest compressions, imminent delivery(if I had gloves at least), serious bleeding(again, with gloves), manual stabilization, assist with an active seizure. Fill in the blanks please, but without equipment, meds, and gloves, what else more could I do besides dialing 911?



You basically nailed it.

Work within your scope if you made the decision to stop and help.  Immediate life threats like stopping bleeding and giving compressions for cardiac arrest.  

Things I am wary of doing off duty would be airway management beyond headtilt - chinlift like OPA/NPA.  I have them, but reserve them only for the most dire situations. (unlike being on duty where I'll gladly give everyone I meet two NPA plus an OPA if they aren't conscious)  Why?  because they step into the 'invasive intervention' zone.

This discussion makes me want to go read over my states good sam laws.


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