# Salary



## FutureMed (Apr 25, 2013)

Does it discourage anyone that you get paid as much as someone working in mcdonalds and what not? 10 dollars an hour doesn't seem so great.


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## STXmedic (Apr 25, 2013)

Not at all. But I also get paid fairly well and nothing like MickeyDs... $10 is insulting.


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## NomadicMedic (Apr 25, 2013)

Yeah, I wouldn't do this job for 10 bucks an hour. 

Now 11 and free cheeseburgers, maybe I'd reconsider.


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## mct601 (Apr 25, 2013)

It discourages a lot of people in the field. Pay is a major gripe. Its all according to where you are and what shifts you work. Some people make $20+/hr and don't get in many hours. Some people get $10-13/hr but get in a great amount of OT. At the end of the day, we still have benefits and a higher salary then someone at a fast food joint. Best advice I have is look at the overall pay vs per hour wages. 

This is a medic stand point. Basic wages are dirt in most places. Minimum wage isn't uncommon, especially for 24hr shifts.


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## FutureMed (Apr 25, 2013)

I'm going to go for paramedic after I do 1 year of EMT-B though and I've been hearing they pay around 10 dollars an hour in the states. I'm from NYC and not really sure on the paramedics salary.


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## VFlutter (Apr 25, 2013)

FutureMed said:


> Does it discourage anyone that you get paid as much as someone working in mcdonalds and what not? 10 dollars an hour doesn't seem so great.



I always hear people make that comparison and I don't get why it offends  them. McDonald's is a job just like anything else. The company pays a wage that they believe is fair for the worker's particular job and qualifications. The pay is low because of the low qualifications (GED) and excessive supply of applicants. As an EMT you most likely do not have much, if any, more education then that McDonalds employee. Just like McDonalds EMS companies pay wages that they believe are fair because of the low qualifications (GED + EMT) and supply of applicants. 

What do you expect to get paid with a GED and a few months of vocational training?


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## STXmedic (Apr 25, 2013)

mct601 said:


> Best advice I have is look at the overall pay vs per hour wages.



If you're talking about looking for benefits in addition to wages, then I agree. If you're talking about overtime opportunity, then I highly disagree. If the only way I can make a living is by constantly working overtime, then that is not a service I will be at long. Overtime should be a nice little bonus that you can do without, not a necessity that is required to live remotely comfortably.


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## eprex (Apr 25, 2013)

After a month I'll be making $12.50 as an EMT-B. After taxes I'll be making less than what I made at my last job which was off the books, but I'll have benefits+overtime. On top of that I can actually use my BLS experience to move up in the medical field, where as working a coffee counter would have gotten me nowhere.


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## Trashtruck (Apr 25, 2013)

I'm sure I'll get bashed for this, but it's my opinion, and with that said(holding my breath!)...

I think working as an EMT is easier than working at McDonalds. People who have worked in the food service industry should know what I mean. It blows.

If I were an EMT, I'd work somewhere for $10/hr. without too much of a complaint. EMT is a cushy job. McDonalds is not. 
You'd have to pay me at least $15/hr to work at McDonalds. At least...

But yeah, GED+120hrs. What kind of wage do you expect?


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## wanderingmedic (Apr 25, 2013)

public transit bus drivers in my area make $11.50hr starting, it goes up from there.


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## teedubbyaw (Apr 25, 2013)

While I'm in medic school, I work events occasionally for $10/hr. Sometimes I would do it for free. Events are a ton of fun.


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## rmabrey (Apr 25, 2013)

If mcdonalds paid the same as being an EMT I would still do this. Enjoying what you do goes a long way. 

Not to mention the resources I have doing this job. 

For instance nurses apparently love having kids, and with one on the way we have hardly anything we need to buy thanks to those nurses. Hand me downs rock!


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## DrParasite (Apr 25, 2013)

I make about 19 an hour, and get a $2/hr night diff.  that i work in a busy system.

at my side job, I think I make somewhere between 14 and 16 an hour.  It's a cushy job in the suburbs.

I hate to say it, but how much are you worth, in the eyes of your employer?  how much are you worth in the eyes of the governing body that pays your wages?  and lastly, how much are you willing to accept as a minimum, and if you won't accept the low wage, is there a line of people out the door willing to accept that low wage?

I will gladly say I get paid pretty well, at least compared to others.  Maybe those people who get paid more are just more valuable to those who sign their paychecks than those who will accept $10 an hour?


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## teedubbyaw (Apr 25, 2013)

DrParasite said:


> I make about 19 an hour, and get a $2/hr night diff.  that i work in a busy system.
> 
> at my side job, I think I make somewhere between 14 and 16 an hour.  It's a cushy job in the suburbs.
> 
> ...



Are you Emt-A?


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## DrParasite (Apr 25, 2013)

Started as an EMT-B, became an EMT-D, then they abolished Ds and made everyone Bs, and now all BLS EMT-Bs are considered EMTs


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## teedubbyaw (Apr 26, 2013)

Nice pay grade. I'd take that


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## Clipper1 (Apr 26, 2013)

FutureMed said:


> Does it discourage anyone that you get paid as much as someone working in mcdonalds and what not? 10 dollars an hour doesn't seem so great.



How weird that you would use McDonald's as a comparison in pay to being an EMT or Paramedic.  

I would work 3 jobs before I allow one of my kids to work at a McDonald's or a convenience store while in they are in college.  

These workers have a very high probability of having a gun pointed directly at them intentionally. They are also highly likely to be shot or pistol whipped for whatever they happen to have in their cash register.  Doesn't anyone on this discussion read anything other than the posts on this website?  

McDonald's employees do handle a lot of money each day and are held accountable for everything in their register at the end of a shift.

McDonald's employees also will see more customers in one hour than the number of patients an EMT sees in one shift or even in a week of shifts.

McDonald's employees will also be cussed at and spit on almost every shift but still must remain professional enough to continue providing customer service.   You probably wouldn't be surprised to know that some of those customers screaming and cursing at McDonald's employees are EMTs and Paramedics who feel they are entitled to free fries. Posts like the ones here show a lack of respect for people in other jobs who are working there for a variety of reasons.



azemtb255 said:


> public transit bus drivers in my area make $11.50hr starting, it goes up from there.



No way!  If you think that is too much for a Public Transit Bus Driver you obviously have never used public transit systems. 

How much do you think 110 hours training is worth? 

What about school teachers who might have a Masters degree and don't make much more than some EMTs?  Look at the risks some of them take in a classroom.  

Didn't you do any research into the profession?   If you wanted health care, transport or even flight you could have gone for a BSN in nursing which would have provided all of the neat stuff plus a lot more in the ICUs or trauma units.


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## Milla3P (Apr 26, 2013)

Clipper1 said:


> McDonald's employees will also be cussed at and spit on almost every shift but still must remain professional enough to continue providing customer service.   You probably wouldn't be surprised to know that some of those customers screaming and cursing at McDonald's employees are EMTs and Paramedics who feel they are entitled to free fries. Posts like the ones here show a lack of respect for people in other jobs who are working there for a variety of reasons.



I'm cussed at every day, it's probably once a month that I'm spit at, excluding beach season, then it's daily. But I get $20+ with Benny's. I've worked for it. I started with my GED and 110hrs of training and I got a job right out of school doing BS IFT for $12.50/hr. it was a $1+/hr paycut from what I was doing at the time as a group home manager for a decade. 

There's not just your compensation= hourly+OT+Benny's. 

It's your stress level+responsibility+culpability level that matters, too. 

I would rather try to ACLS the dead back to life than keep track of 15 wards of the States finances and Social Security funds knowing that my predecessor just got pinched for SSI embezzlement to the tune on $60k.


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## Achilles (Apr 26, 2013)

Clipper1 said:


> McDonald's employees do handle a lot of money each day
> Didn't you do any research into the profession?   If you wanted health care, transport or even flight you could have gone for a BSN in nursing which would have provided all of the neat stuff plus a lot more in the ICUs or trauma units.



Not everyone is going to stay an emt basic their entire life, just like not everyone is going to work at Mickey D's their entire life (some will, most won't.)


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## Milla3P (Apr 26, 2013)

However, of this is an argument leaning towards the thought of "pay the EMT more and. He will he more professional". Just think; most nursing home nurses make more than an ED RN. Does that make them better? Or just better paid?


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## kurtemt (Apr 26, 2013)

I don't know what you guys are complaining about, here in Chicago land emt-b's start at 9.00 an hour... and the medics start at 12.00-13.00 for the privates. Even the "techs" that work in the er's that are medics make about 13.00-15.00. But it's like anything else, you have to put your time in if you want to get on a department and get the "good calls" and make "good money".


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## fortsmithman (Apr 26, 2013)

EMS herte in Canada are better paid than our counterparts in the USA.


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## Bullets (Apr 26, 2013)

kurtemt said:


> I don't know what you guys are complaining about, here in Chicago land emt-b's start at 9.00 an hour... and the medics start at 12.00-13.00 for the privates. Even the "techs" that work in the er's that are medics make about 13.00-15.00. But it's like anything else, you have to put your time in if you want to get on a department and get the "good calls" and make "good money".



Thats criminal

Meanwhile, im making $20 hr and im in the public employees benefits system. However i make more then most agencys. Private IFT pay around 12, Medics here make 20 as well. We have a bunch of medics who work for us as EMTs, since its the same pay, better benefits and less work. We will do 6-12 jobs a day, where they might get 15-20 as an ALS truck


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## RocketMedic (Apr 26, 2013)

Jack in the Box is still my worst, hardest job ever. Harder than it looks, too.


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## Rialaigh (Apr 26, 2013)

Flat out, EMT's certainly make more money then most people with the same amount of training. EMT's and paramedics certainly make more money with the same amount of training when you account for actual number of hours worked. I think most people who run 24's on here would be hard pressed to argue that they are actually doing work during more then 12-16 of it (if that). Double your hourly (or time and a half it) and use that to compare to other jobs where you will be on your feet all day working every minute except your lunch break. We make WAY more money per hour worked then almost anyone with the same amount of training. If anything paying a medic 16 dollars an hour for a 24 hour shift that averages 3 calls per shift is overpaying the medic like crazy....


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## the_negro_puppy (Apr 26, 2013)

Medics here earn around $80k inclusive of incidental and optional overtime


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## Aprz (Apr 26, 2013)

Yep, worked at a Wingstop for $8.50/hour, and I am currently paid $11.96/hour as an EMT (at an IFT-only company). I think it's way easier being an EMT than working fast food, it should've been the other way around.


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## Milla3P (Apr 26, 2013)

What's the point of paying 4¢ under $12. It seems like a subtle insult.


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## chief (Apr 26, 2013)

I used to think $10 was bad until I thought of the benefits that come with working in EMS: you're on your own(sort of), plenty of OT, paid time off just to name a few. And the most beautiful part of it is all the skills you learn can take you to the fire side, become an RN, a medic, etcetera.


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## chaz90 (Apr 26, 2013)

Yep. I'm pretty content with the salary we're paid when you look at what the average day entails. EMS seems to spoil people for other jobs. As was mentioned previously, fast food workers are expected to work basically the entire time during their shift. We may have days like that, but most have large sections of free time where we are basically left alone. I love my job, look forward to going to work, and think I am fairly compensated for it.


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## NJ EMT (Apr 26, 2013)

kurtemt said:


> I don't know what you guys are complaining about, here in Chicago land emt-b's start at 9.00 an hour... and the medics start at 12.00-13.00 for the privates. Even the "techs" that work in the er's that are medics make about 13.00-15.00. But it's like anything else, you have to put your time in if you want to get on a department and get the "good calls" and make "good money".



I can't complain where I work (Jersey City), but to hear that you guys in Chicago start off at 9.00 an hour as a basic is a shame. Especially for the amount of work in a high call volume area like that you put in. Medics starting out at 12.00 to 13.00 an hour? That's hard to believe. A basic over here start's out at 14.00 an hour for a private transport company (easy money) and hospital based ems starts out at 17.00 an hour. Granted, I don't think any of us signed on for this job for the "good money"... That being said, I love my job and I couldn't imagine doing anything else, except advancement in the field of course.


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## medicsb (Apr 26, 2013)

Two ways to get paid more: 
1. Increase education standards (will weed out plenty and decrease supply...)
2. Unionize (nothing worth having is gotten for free; sometimes you have to fight for it and not just whine about not having what you want)


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## Trashtruck (Apr 26, 2013)

#2 beats #1.

Not saying it's right, but it's true.


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## 46Young (Apr 26, 2013)

Rialaigh said:


> Flat out, EMT's certainly make more money then most people with the same amount of training. EMT's and paramedics certainly make more money with the same amount of training when you account for actual number of hours worked. I think most people who run 24's on here would be hard pressed to argue that they are actually doing work during more then 12-16 of it (if that). Double your hourly (or time and a half it) and use that to compare to other jobs where you will be on your feet all day working every minute except your lunch break. We make WAY more money per hour worked then almost anyone with the same amount of training. If anything paying a medic 16 dollars an hour for a 24 hour shift that averages 3 calls per shift is overpaying the medic like crazy....



You're still being paid for your time. The company is paying to have coverage. That's what the job is. You're not at home, with your family, or sleeping in your own bed. The crime is when the company mandates you to work 24 hours, but only pays for 16, then puts you on-call (but still at the station) for the overnight hours.

A starting salary of 16 per hour for a medic working a 24/48 is rare. That's $53,000/yr. A more typical salary would be around $35,000/yr, or about $10.50/hr. That's a 56 hour/week work schedule. Even if they do three calls a day, they're still lending their services for 140% more hours than a 40 hour employee just for their base pay. Services like to quote a starting salary of $35k-$40k/yr, but when you find out that you need to work 56 hours/week to get that, it's not really built in OT. It's the company getting over you. Think about it, how many medics would apply to a job that pays  $21,840/yr? But that's what 40 hours a week at a job paying $10.50/hr really is. that $16/hr job is only $33,280/yr @ 40 hours a week. That's not much money, no matter where you live. That's maybe $450/week after taxes.


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## 46Young (Apr 26, 2013)

Trashtruck said:


> #2 beats #1.
> 
> Not saying it's right, but it's true.



Sad but true. Hardly anyone requires a degree to be hired, including such premier employers as KCM1, Wake County EMS, or any large, well paying fire based employer. Even the ones that give bonuses to degreed applicants may only amount to maybe a few thousand dollars a year at best. This is for a Bachelors or Masters degree. Going from $35k/yr to $38k/yr with a Bachelor's degree is not worth it.


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## 46Young (Apr 26, 2013)

NJ EMT said:


> I can't complain where I work (Jersey City), but to hear that you guys in Chicago start off at 9.00 an hour as a basic is a shame. Especially for the amount of work in a high call volume area like that you put in. Medics starting out at 12.00 to 13.00 an hour? That's hard to believe. A basic over here start's out at 14.00 an hour for a private transport company (easy money) and hospital based ems starts out at 17.00 an hour. Granted, I don't think any of us signed on for this job for the "good money"... That being said, I love my job and I couldn't imagine doing anything else, except advancement in the field of course.



You have to remember that Jersey EMT's and medics may have a 40 hour workweek. Most places down south and out west have 48-56 hour workweeks. A $13/hr medic on a 24/48 schedule is not making a 40 hour salary of $27,040, they're making a 56 hour salary of $43,264. That's the same pay (albeit for 140% more hours each week) as a 40 hour medic making just shy of $21/hr.


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## Youngin (Apr 26, 2013)

I'm barely 20, with a GED, and 6 months of vocational training. 

$10.82/hr with full health benefits, vacation/sick time, and a guaranteed 50 hours a week working half 911 and half convalescent seems like a much better deal than flipping burgers.


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## DesertMedic66 (Apr 27, 2013)

medicsb said:


> Two ways to get paid more:
> 1. Increase education standards (will weed out plenty and decrease supply...)
> 2. Unionize (nothing worth having is gotten for free; sometimes you have to fight for it and not just whine about not having what you want)



Depending on how your area is ran you may not even need to unionize. My company is non-union but the company (same company different division) next to us is union. if they demand and get higher pay, we also get an equal pay raise.


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## Clipper1 (Apr 27, 2013)

DesertEMT66 said:


> Depending on how your area is ran you may not even need to unionize. My company is non-union but the company (same company different division) next to us is union. if they demand and get higher pay, we also get an equal pay raise.



And, you don't have to pay union dues and give money to the political choice of the union which might be very different from yours.


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## DesertMedic66 (Apr 27, 2013)

Clipper1 said:


> And, you don't have to pay union dues and give money to the political choice of the union which might be very different from yours.



Yep. It all depends on how your company is ran on if you need a union or not.


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## Chupathangy (Apr 28, 2013)

Man, I WISH my agency paid me $10 an hour. Or at least let me work OT... Lots of OT. .. Sooo much OT.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Apr 28, 2013)

Even though the education and entry level requirements for EMT are low (way to low) there are plenty of uneducated factory workers and people doing jobs other than McDonalds which pay quite well. Garbage men and Delivery couriers(like UPS and FED-EX) make out pretty good. My friend only has a GED and shes working for the post office making more than some Paramedics. It is not required for police officers or fire fighters to have a degree(depending on your area) and they normally make more than Paramedics with degrees. Even RN's still can graduate with out a degree and practice in some states. Although the number of diploma nurse programs are quite low compared to degree ones( and I am sure the nurses will be quick to remind us of that. ;-) )
While I am an advocate for advancing EMS education, including degrees, I do not believe its the only stand alone answer to raise wages.
A prime example of that are teachers.


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## Bullets (Apr 28, 2013)

ExpatMedic0 said:


> Even though the education and entry level requirements for EMT are low (way to low) there are plenty of uneducated factory workers and people doing jobs other than McDonalds which pay quite well. Garbage men and Delivery couriers(like UPS and FED-EX) make out pretty good. My friend only has a GED and shes working for the post office making more than some Paramedics. It is not required for police officers or fire fighters to have a degree(depending on your area) and they normally make more than Paramedics with degrees. Even RN's still can graduate with out a degree and practice in some states. Although the number of diploma nurse programs are quite low compared to degree ones( and I am sure the nurses will be quick to remind us of that. ;-) )
> While I am an advocate for advancing EMS education, including degrees, I do not believe its the only stand alone answer to raise wages.
> A prime example of that are teachers.



The overnight cleaning crew at Six Flags great Adventure made the most money of any non-salaried employees. They come in when the park closes and clean the whole place top to bottom before the park opens the next day. Basically no requirements other then being able to pick up trash and clean, but they were making like $30 hr


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## Handsome Robb (Apr 28, 2013)

Chupathangy said:


> Man, I WISH my agency paid me $10 an hour. Or at least let me work OT... Lots of OT. .. Sooo much OT.



Wait...you don't even make 10/hr? 

I thought I had it bad at 16.35 an hour with all the OT I can handle if I want it... I'll quit complaining.


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## VFlutter (Apr 28, 2013)

Robb said:


> Wait...you don't even make 10/hr?
> 
> I thought I had it bad at 16.35 an hour with all the OT I can handle if I want it... I'll quit complaining.



Per hour pay is all relative depending on where you live. I think my $22/hr is measly compared to the $30+/hr some RNs are making until I realize how much higher the cost of living is in those places. But I did feel like a Baller the first time I saw my OT pay rate  

I would not be surprised if some EMTs around here made $9ish/hr. I made about $10/hr as a tech during nursing school and I was able to get by and pay my bills working ~30hrs a week.


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## DrankTheKoolaid (Apr 28, 2013)

It's all about how you plan it. New grad RNs start at 55hr in the area I work. Just commute in from a cheaper area then where you work

Or even better go in with a few other and rent a cheap place to stay during you rotation

Some of our medics do the same and fly in for their rotations


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## 46Young (Apr 28, 2013)

Per diems don't have it too bad at my second job (IFT)- EMT's $15/hr, medics $20/hr, $2/hr evening diff, $3/hr night diff, $1/hr weekend diff, and 5% bump for having dual state certification. This is in and around Winchester, VA far enough away from Northern VA to justify a lower pay scale.


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## 46Young (Apr 28, 2013)

I used to work for Charleston County EMS in SC as a medic back in 2007-2008. They paid starting medics just shy of $38k/yr on a 24/48 schedule (or 12 hr 3 on 2 off, 2 on 3 off). After six months we were eligible for promotion to crew chief, with a new base of around $45k/yr. They were very demanding, and I couldn't for the life of me, figure out why this was the case when they were paying medics between $11.75 and $13.75/hr (roughly). I now have my answer. At the very bottom of the link below is a link called "fire pay plan." This is the pay scale for the City of Charleston Fire Department. 

http://www.charlestoncity.info/dept/content.aspx?nid=1748

A basic firefighter without any college starts at a mere $30,464.55/yr, with maybe another $1000/yr in FLSA pay. That's just under $9.25/hr. Ten dollar an hour EMT's actually do better then Charleston City Firefighters, provided they also have a pension and decent medical benefits. A brand new Charleston County EMS medic makes as much as a Charleston FD Captain. As a rookie up here, I was making more than a Charleston Fire Battalion Chief with an Assosciates degree ($70k including all differentials). Basically, if you can get hired at a Third Service for as little as $45k/yr, you're doing better than a Charleston City Fire Captain. The Southeast is great to visit and to live in, but they don't generally don't pay squat.


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## ethomas4 (Apr 30, 2013)

I agree with a previous post that said that if these EMS classes are made harder, we could weed out a lot people. My EMT B class was a joke, as I assume most are, anyone who paid passed. The EMT P class at the same school kept lowering its passing rate to get more students to pass, (more money for the school). 

I have a good paying job now, but I highly dislike it. It is in a hospital, not in EMS and not providing any patient care... I am chomping at the bit to get back onto an ambulance. Being happy with your job can make a huge difference in your life. I worked for a few  years as an EMT-I internationally, I got paid peanuts, but loved it and would do it again in a heartbeat, I will do it again.


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## eprex (Apr 30, 2013)

Robb said:


> Wait...you don't even make 10/hr?
> 
> I thought I had it bad at 16.35 an hour with all the OT I can handle if I want it... I'll quit complaining.



You're a paramedic, he's an EMT. I apologize if you already noticed this.

EMT's at my job make $12.50, while paramedics make $20 but we also live in one of the more expensive areas in the country.


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## VFlutter (May 9, 2013)

http://www.kmov.com/news/mobile/Mor...ts-expected-to-strike-Thursday-206729031.html

Fast food employees may start to make as much as Paramedics around here. They are striking until they get a $15 minimum wage


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## chaz90 (May 9, 2013)

Chase said:


> http://www.kmov.com/news/mobile/Mor...ts-expected-to-strike-Thursday-206729031.html
> 
> Fast food employees may start to make as much as Paramedics around here. They are striking until they get a $15 minimum wage



My sympathies runneth dry for some of the people in that article. Don't like your menial fast food job where you've worked for three years? Leave.


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## RocketMedic (May 9, 2013)

11.31 an hour, paid 24 hours, 56-hour fire schedule (same as 46Youngs), OT paid at time-and-a-half after 40 hours, 100% paid BCBS health care. Current base pay $38,500, down a bit from EMSA's 40,300. However, there's a one-dollar salary bump at 6 months and then again at one year. Realistically, Im still looking at 40k/year.


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## DrParasite (May 9, 2013)

chaz90 said:


> My sympathies runneth dry for some of the people in that article. Don't like your menial fast food job where you've worked for three years? Leave.


how would you feel if this was said about your low paying job?


chaz90 said:


> My sympathies runneth dry for some of the paramedics in that article. Don't like your EMS job where you've worked for three years? Leave.


Kinda stings when the shoe is on the other foot.

if they work hard, they should be able to live on what they make.


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## chaz90 (May 9, 2013)

DrParasite said:


> how would you feel if this was said about your low paying job?
> Kinda stings when the shoe is on the other foot.
> 
> if they work hard, they should be able to live on what they make.



I'd have no problem leaving that job I wasn't satisfied with. I absolutely agree people should be able to make a livable wage off of their hard work. If quality employees leave the store though, it will provide management incentive to increase their wages. When you've agreed to do a job for a set compensation, you can't necessarily expect wages to increase just because you're not making as much money as other people. Employees have the right to leave and seek better employment, and employers have the right to pay low wages if they're satisfied with the labor they're getting for their money. 

My point had nothing to do with fast food workers vs. EMS providers. I think strikes had their place at one point, but in today's world, I think there are better ways to get your position across than failing to show up at your place of work for your assigned shift at your agreed upon wages.


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## STXmedic (May 9, 2013)

DrParasite said:


> how would you feel if this was said about your low paying job?
> Kinda stings when the shoe is on the other foot.
> 
> if they work hard, they should be able to live on what they make.



Nope. Still sounds the same and fits just as well. Especially since most of the medics in those poor-paying dead-end jobs do absolutely nothing to further themselves. The money and the good jobs are there. If you don't do :censored::censored::censored::censored: to get there, I have no sympathy.


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## Arovetli (May 9, 2013)

I disagree.

How valuable to the economy is a fry cook?

These jobs are low wage for a reason, and there is opportunity to learn new skills, a trade, become educated, etc.

Because the last few American generations were born in a land of gravy, does not mean all people of all kinds can have gravy. Harsh truth is, just because some have all, doesnt mean all have some. Some have all, some have some, and some have none.

The low wage provides an opportunity to learn job skills and advance, keeps prices down and sales up, and creates pressure to advance up or out, putting the former worker in a better economic status and creating an avenue for a another low skill worker to obtain employment. Within the organization one can advance up the fast food management ladder, but it is folly to demand low skilled workers be paid high wages, stagnating the upward process, raising overall prices, and lowering sales.

Minimum wage should peg to inflation though, and be high enough to adequately disincentivize non-work.


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## Fish (May 10, 2013)

FutureMed said:


> Does it discourage anyone that you get paid as much as someone working in mcdonalds and what not? 10 dollars an hour doesn't seem so great.



If McDonalds workers in St. Louis and Chicago have their way, they will be getting paid $15 and hour. So they will actually make more


There is a big movement and a "demand" for $15 an hour for fast food workers in the north


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## Arovetli (May 10, 2013)

Fish said:


> If McDonalds workers in St. Louis and Chicago have their way, they will be getting paid $15 and hour. So they will actually make more
> 
> 
> There is a big movement and a "demand" for $15 an hour for fast food workers in the north



I'm sure Bloomberg & CO. would be thrilled. Raise the wages, raise the prices and demand goes down. No need to regulate big cola when you can drop consumption by raising prices. Actually, Im faily suprised he has not taken his billions and bought up all the fast food joints in NYC.

He could have a chain called Bloomburger's.

But I reckon he's too smart to do anything foolish like that with his own money, so he just uses the taxpayer's.


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## rmabrey (May 10, 2013)

Let them pay them $15 an hour. Wont hurt my feelings, I still take pride in what I do despite potentially making less than a fast food worker. 

I dont eat that junk anyway so wont hurt my feelings when they close.


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## HotelCo (May 13, 2013)

Pay varies depending on if you're working for a private/municipal, or other type of service.

Between the privates around here, one starts medics at $11/hr, and the other starts medics at $17/hr. All depends on where you go. 

If you aren't happy with the pay, go somewhere else, or find a different career altogether. Griping about it won't help.


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## Niesje (May 18, 2013)

I don't know what other schools are like, but the school I'm going to for AEMT requires way more than 120 hrs. I'm required to do 506 clinical hrs and 17 hrs a week in class for 8 months. But from what I hear, the pay around here is better than that. From the statistics, it looks like good money, but it's most likely longevity that really increases your pay. Say you start out at $10/hr and work for 10 years, getting a raise every 6 months(the usual around here). You'd be making $20/hr. This is keeping in mind that most EMS workers I've met have advanced their education at least a little and have stayed at the same job for a long time.


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## NPO (May 20, 2013)

FutureMed said:


> Does it discourage anyone that you get paid as much as someone working in mcdonalds and what not? 10 dollars an hour doesn't seem so great.



Would it be nice to be making what Fire or PD makes? Yeah.
Should we be paid more than $10/hr? Yeah. 

But I don't do my job for the paycheck, I do it because I look forward to going to work. Because I like what I do and the people I serve. 

Even with the high cost of living in CA I make due with $10.50/hr, and I get 18mpg on a one hour commute. Far from optimal, but I keep showing up every day. 

You can't do this job for the paycheck. You have to do it because you want to.


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## Clipper1 (May 20, 2013)

NPO said:


> Would it be nice to be making what Fire or PD makes? Yeah.
> Should we be paid more than $10/hr? Yeah.
> 
> But I don't do my job for the paycheck, I do it because I look forward to going to work. Because I like what I do and the people I serve.
> ...



Do you have a family to support?  Kids?  

Do you have a mortgage?

You will find that those with kids to support earning minimum wage in states like California on some form of public assistance.  

It is great to say things like that while you might have feel responsibilities but at some point you might need to look at the future.  Having your kids living off welfare programs is not always a good life for them or a good example. 

Do you have any plans to go beyond what is considered and entry level job?  Some  people get comfortable with entry level jobs and shun going to college or advancing to a job that has more responsibility to go along with the increase in pay.  

There is also a big difference between choosing a career and a job. You referred to being an EMT as a job. 


There are many other jobs and careers where you can help people even in EMS or the prehospital environment without giving up a decent income. But, it also comes at a price of time, effort and money. 

The FD firefighters usually must maintain both the firefighting part as well as the EMT or Paramedic certs. This is one reason why they are paid more. Police Officers also may be required to maintain many proficiencies while some EMTs struggle to just do the minimum NREMT recert requirements with very few expectations from their employers.

There is also another side to this like for teachers who have invested usually at minimum a 6 year college degree (Masters) to obtain a career which is their passion. When someone puts that much effort into doing some which helps many children or adults better themselves but still works for a very low salary even in California, works part time at another job to make ends meet and still enjoys what they do, you have someone who has a true passion for their chosen career.


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## Rialaigh (May 20, 2013)

Just as a side note with all the fast food talking. Several of our local area Mccdonalds are REQUIRING an associates degree to work the register. It does not give you an improved shot at the job, it is REQUIRED....

This is The carolina's, not exactly the shining example of education and yet our fast food joints are requiring their register workers to have more education then we do. 

So to put it all in perspective, They are more educated, I dare say they work harder then your average EMS worker, they get less appreciation for their job, and yet they make less money.... dare I say again, EMS is not underpaid...


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## Wheel (May 20, 2013)

Clipper1 said:


> Do you have a family to support?  Kids?
> 
> Do you have a mortgage?
> 
> ...



This is very true. You can make a career as a paramedic, but you need to be diligent about finding a job that will support you. You need to invest in your retirement and your future. They always say money can't buy happiness, but it can buy you some financial security if you're smart with it, and that peace of mind is incredibly important.



Rialaigh said:


> Just as a side note with all the fast food talking. Several of our local area Mccdonalds are REQUIRING an associates degree to work the register. It does not give you an improved shot at the job, it is REQUIRED....
> 
> This is The carolina's, not exactly the shining example of education and yet our fast food joints are requiring their register workers to have more education then we do.
> 
> So to put it all in perspective, They are more educated, I dare say they work harder then your average EMS worker, they get less appreciation for their job, and yet they make less money.... dare I say again, EMS is not underpaid...



Also agree here. We don't require any degrees and rarely value them if someone has one. I feel lucky to be a 23 year old making what I do, knowing that my wife has a masters degree and is having a ton of trouble finding a job.

Also, there are many people with grad degrees who are unemployed with suffocating student loan debt. Lawyers can have upwards of 300k in debt from a crappy private school and would be lucky to land a job that requires a JD and makes 40k (about what you can count on making as a new medic if you're willing to move a little) while possibly working long hours doing tedious paperwork. I say if you're unhappy, try to move where you can find a job at suits you. They are there. Most new paramedics are in a much better position than new lawyers, with way less education.


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## NPO (May 20, 2013)

Clipper1 said:


> Do you have a family to support?  Kids?
> 
> Do you have a mortgage?
> 
> ...



I do not have kids or a mortgage. I did not mean to step on the toes of those that do and struggle. I am only 20. I still have to work to get the bills paid, but its not like having kids. 

And I do plan on going past the entry level job. I'm in school for a paramedic degree and plan on something like search and rescue or something to augment my normal EMS duties.


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## BateMan (May 22, 2013)

do you work in CA ?


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## Mariemt (May 22, 2013)

Hmm, I have to  maintain my NR status and had to complete an EMT course they put into college curriculum for college credit. My course ran 250 hours and was 2 semesters long. I get paid. .... a whooping stipend and a free meal on transfers over 3 hours long.

I don't complain about the money obviously because I don't do it for the money. I am speaking to the city about my Paramedic degree 2 year associates ... and then I will get paid...nothing more. I do get free education though


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## augustHorch (May 22, 2013)

chaz90 said:


> Yep. I'm pretty content with the salary we're paid when you look at what the average day entails. EMS seems to spoil people for other jobs. As was mentioned previously, fast food workers are expected to work basically the entire time during their shift. We may have days like that, but most have large sections of free time where we are basically left alone. I love my job, look forward to going to work, and think I am fairly compensated for it.



i think there is another thought to consider though... 

the amount of responsibility and liability we have compared to working at jack in the crack... it is night and day difference. That type of difference should effect monetary compensation.

EDIT: let me be clear. i am not complaining at all with what i get compensated as an EMT-B. BUT i would be hardpressed to do it for 10 dollars an hour...


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## Clipper1 (May 23, 2013)

augustHorch said:


> i think there is another thought to consider though...
> 
> the amount of responsibility and liability we have compared to working at jack in the crack... it is night and day difference. That type of difference should effect monetary compensation.
> 
> EDIT: let me be clear. i am not complaining at all with what i get compensated as an EMT-B. BUT i would be hardpressed to do it for 10 dollars an hour...



I see you have probably never worked for a fast food restaurant.

Fast food workers deal with more people in 2 hours than you probably do in a month.  They handle $1000s of dollars each shift and are accountable for every penny.  They face the possibility of being robbed and harm every shift. They know all of their actions are recorded and under scrutiny.  They put up with jerks who believe they are superior to them every shift who demand their 10% discount for being an EMT "saving lives all day" and will make a scene every chance they get if they are unhappy about service.

At least many of the fast food service workers are in college getting an education to move up rather than whining.


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## augustHorch (May 23, 2013)

Clipper1 said:


> I see you have probably never worked for a fast food restaurant.
> 
> Fast food workers deal with more people in 2 hours than you probably do in a month.  They handle $1000s of dollars each shift and are accountable for every penny.  They face the possibility of being robbed and harm every shift. They know all of their actions are recorded and under scrutiny.  They put up with jerks who believe they are superior to them every shift who demand their 10% discount for being an EMT "saving lives all day" and will make a scene every chance they get if they are unhappy about service.
> 
> At least many of the fast food service workers are in college getting an education to move up rather than whining.



Hmmm...

I dont disagree that they deal with more people, and deal with more cash, and that it is dangerous. All that is correct. 

I think the legal liabilities EMTs face are far greater than that of a fast food worker. I also think that the level of responsibility is FAR greater as an EMT... you are dealing with human beings... every single one different... with very complex systems with very complex needs... And you are tasked to not only sustain their lives in near impossible circumstances, but you are also tasked with attempting diagnose and treat conditions that your training has barely scratched the surface of.

Disclaimer: This is IN NO WAY a slam on fast food workers. I have lots of respect for the job and what it entails... 


--edited---


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## ExpatMedic0 (May 23, 2013)

Clipper1 said:


> I see you have probably never worked for a fast food restaurant.
> 
> Fast food workers deal with more people in 2 hours than you probably do in a month.  They handle $1000s of dollars each shift and are accountable for every penny.  They face the possibility of being robbed and harm every shift. They know all of their actions are recorded and under scrutiny.  They put up with jerks who believe they are superior to them every shift who demand their 10% discount for being an EMT "saving lives all day" and will make a scene every chance they get if they are unhappy about service.
> 
> At least many of the fast food service workers are in college getting an education to move up rather than whining.



Of course this may vary from region to region, but here is my feedback. I worked at McDonalds when I was 16 years old. Employee's smoked weed in the freezer, no one was a college a student on my shift, most of the employees where high school kids or drops outs. We also hired many people with mental disabilities. As a 16 year old boy I did not have any children of my own, any house payments, car payments, or anything. I did mindless work which I am fairly sure a monkey could be trained to do. The very small number of employees who handled the money did not have to do math, the register did all that for you. The manager made sure everything was correct at the end of your shift. I never felt "scared of being robbed" anymore than I have as a Paramedic, or while sitting at home watching TV. The minimum wage I was making as a 16 year old kid seemed like a fortune to me at that time.


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## ExpatMedic0 (May 23, 2013)

Lastly, there are a lot of customers who treat them like crap. I don't agree with customers treating fastfood workers, service industry folks, or anyone like that. However I have also seen employees spit in burgers, milk shakes, ect... So its pretty dumb on the customers behalf to provoke such an act.


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## Clipper1 (May 23, 2013)

ExpatMedic0 said:


> Of course this may vary from region to region, but here is my feedback. I worked at McDonalds when I was 16 years old. Employee's smoked weed in the freezer, no one was a college a student on my shift, most of the employees where high school kids or drops outs. We also hired many people with mental disabilities. As a 16 year old boy I did not have any children of my own, any house payments, car payments, or anything. I did mindless work which I am fairly sure a monkey could be trained to do. The very small number of employees who handled the money did not have to do math, the register did all that for you. The manager made sure everything was correct at the end of your shift. I never felt "scared of being robbed" anymore than I have as a Paramedic, or while sitting at home watching TV. The minimum wage I was making as a 16 year old kid seemed like a fortune to me at that time.



Considering your age, I think a lot has changed in 40 years.  Employees are now drug tested and a thorough background check is done which some EMTs don't even have to face today.


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## Clipper1 (May 23, 2013)

augustHorch said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> I dont disagree that they deal with more people, and deal with more cash, and that it is dangerous. All that is correct.
> 
> ...



Fast food workers deal with humans with many different personalities and temors.

They also have a responsibility for safety not only for the food but the environment they work in. Those cookers are hot and can cause harm.  They also probably get more infection control training than the average EMT or even Paramedic.

EMTs have a very limited scope of practice. EMTs have limited education and very limited ability to diagnose in the field. You should not be wasting time in the field as an EMT trying to diagnose every patient.  They do not have the same liability as a Paramedic. If they work for a municipal system, their own personal liability is protected by state immunity laws. Since they make not much money, their employers will face the biggest liability and do pay for insurance to cover you.  Most EMTs in the US will work routine transport trucks. Many of the others will be paired with a Paramedic. The others will be volunteers which also has immunity statutes for protection from direct liability.


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## ExpatMedic0 (May 23, 2013)

Clipper1 said:


> Considering your age, I think a lot has changed in 40 years.  Employees are now drug tested and a thorough background check is done which some EMTs don't even have to face today.



 I am 30 years old, so this was around 15 years ago. Has that much changed at McDonalds in the last 14 to 15 years? Also, to my knowledge it is not corporate policy to drug test at McDonalds. That is not to say an independent franchise owner may or may not do it, but its not a corporate requirement that I am aware of. Mentally and physically handicap people are eligible to work at McDonalds, as are high school children at age 16 (or even age 14 in some states). A high school diploma or GED is also not required to work at Mcdonalds. Lastly, McDonalds is a direct contributer of the public health epidemic that the surgeon general points out called "obesity."


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## Clipper1 (May 23, 2013)

ExpatMedic0 said:


> I am 30 years old, so this was around 15 years ago. Has that much changed at McDonalds in the last 14 to 15 years? Also, to my knowledge it is not corporate policy to drug test at McDonalds. That is not to say an independent franchise owner may or may not do it, but its not a corporate requirement that I am aware of. Mentally and physically handicap people are eligible to work at McDonalds, as are high school children at age 16 (or even age 14 in some states). A high school diploma or GED is also not required to work at Mcdonalds. Lastly, McDonalds is a direct contributer of the public health epidemic that the surgeon general points out called "obesity."



Wasn't that photo of the old man with body tattoos you?  You don't look 30.

Are you saying all 16 year olds who work at McDonalds smoke pot? Do all handicapped people smoke pot?  What exactly is your point? You were able to smoke pot while working at McDonalds does not mean others will be allowed to do so or will be as stupid.  It does show that the 15 year olds like yourself were not old enough  or mature enough to know right and wrong for the work place.

Do all obese EMTs just eat at McDonalds?

Wasn't there a long list of contributing factors and restaurants, not just McDonalds, on the Surgeon General's site? 

Trying to point out pot smoking 16 year olds working at McDonalds still does not make an EMT superior or entitled when the education and initial hiring requirements are not much different. Some states also allow 16 year olds to be EMTs and many will not require drug testing. We already have seen posts on this forum where EMTs and Paramedics have admitted to drug use.  We also have those who smoke in and just outside their ambulance. Role models?  At least fast food workers know who they are and why they are there. Even with the rudest of customers they still know they much treat each one with respect. That is something those in EMS sometimes forgets.  Maybe it should be a requirement for all prospective EMTs to work in fast food or some type of hospitality industry such as wait staff at a restaurant before applying. 

With the low education requirements to be an EMT along with easy entry with few background checks and that many are willing to do the job for free because of the life saving glamor shown on TV, is there really that much mystery as to why the wage is low?   Working at McDonalds is not someone's dream job nor is it made glamorous on TV so those who apply aren't being deceived about what the job is really about.


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## ExpatMedic0 (May 23, 2013)

Clipper1 said:


> Wasn't that photo of the old man with body tattoos you?  You don't look 30.
> 
> Are you saying all 16 year olds who work at McDonalds smoke pot? Do all handicapped people smoke pot?  What exactly is your point?


 I am sorry you do not understand...... I am not sure what else to say with out wasting my breathe.


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## STXmedic (May 23, 2013)

ExpatMedic0 said:


> I am sorry you do not understand...... I am not sure what else to say with out wasting my breathe.



Don't waste it, this has gotten ridiculous.


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## Niesje (May 23, 2013)

npo said:


> would it be nice to be making what fire or pd makes? Yeah.
> Should we be paid more than $10/hr? Yeah.
> 
> But i don't do my job for the paycheck, i do it because i look forward to going to work. Because i like what i do and the people i serve.
> ...


this^^^


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## Wheel (May 23, 2013)

ExpatMedic0 said:


> I am sorry you do not understand...... I am not sure what else to say with out wasting my breathe.



It's not worth it.


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## Ecgg (May 23, 2013)

Who would of thought to get the big bucks in medicine you actually have to get some formal education?


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## JPINFV (May 24, 2013)

Remember, that third year EM resident who is practically running the ED earns about 13-14 dollars an hour too. 50k isn't exactly a lot when working in the 60-80 hour range. 




Arovetli said:


> I disagree.
> 
> How valuable to the economy is a fry cook?



If that's the measuring stick that you want to use, than a lot more than an EMT or paramedic. I can't think of the last time I needed EMS. The last time I needed a fry cook was last week. Also garbage men would be paid like physicians.


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## JPINFV (May 24, 2013)

Clipper1 said:


> At least many of the fast food service workers are in college getting an education to move up rather than whining.




The engineering major asks "how?"
The science major asks "what?"
The economics major asks "how much?"
The humanities major asks "would you like fries with that?"
The liberal arts major calls their parents, complains about how unfair the world is, and pretends to be homeless in order to "make a point" (i.e. Occupy ____)


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## Sandog (May 24, 2013)

JPINFV said:


> The engineering major asks "how?"
> The science major asks "what?"
> The economics major asks "how much?"
> The humanities major asks "would you like fries with that?"
> The liberal arts major calls their parents, complains about how unfair the world is, and pretends to be homeless in order to "make a point" (i.e. Occupy ____)



Now that is funny, don't care who you are.  lol. But the engineering major would also design a money machine The science major would use the money to analyze the flaws in the money machine, the economics major would be looking for a cheaper way to make the machine and the humanities major would question the ethics of it all, the liberal arts major would wonder if you could roll the money paper up and smoke it...


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## ExpatMedic0 (May 24, 2013)

JPINFV said:


> The engineering major asks "how?"
> The science major asks "what?"
> The economics major asks "how much?"
> The humanities major asks "would you like fries with that?"
> The liberal arts major calls their parents, complains about how unfair the world is, and pretends to be homeless in order to "make a point" (i.e. Occupy ____)



:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## 46Young (May 24, 2013)

NPO said:


> Would it be nice to be making what Fire or PD makes? Yeah.
> Should we be paid more than $10/hr? Yeah.
> 
> But I don't do my job for the paycheck, I do it because I look forward to going to work. Because I like what I do and the people I serve.
> ...



The problem is, most people that get into EMS (other than a necessary evil to get a fire job) have the same outlook as you. I was no different. I just wanted to get into the game; pay was largely irrelevant at first. I just wanted to build a work history for my resume, and look for a better opportunity down the road.

The problem is, when most people have this outlook, you reach market saturation with EMS applicants, so the employer can pay whatever they want, usually as little as they can.


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## RocketMedic (May 24, 2013)

Fry cook was legitimately a harder, less awesome job than paramedic.


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## Arovetli (May 25, 2013)

JPINFV said:


> Remember, that third year EM resident who is practically running the ED earns about 13-14 dollars an hour too. 50k isn't exactly a lot when working in the 60-80 hour range.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Many people work 50-80 hours and make less than 50k. On a historical and global scale, we should all be so lucky to have so much, though I am as irrational and greedy as anyone else. I have no qualms about keeping medicare expenditures, and in turn resident income, low. (The tuition and loan situation is another matter). The pay is low because it can be low, there is no incentive to change it, and perhaps increased funds would be better put to use to fund additional slots. 

I am not sure how to respond to your statement on labor value. 

I cant make value comparisons between the four professions mentioned as they respond to much different forces and thus has different values. You would need to generate a curve and mathematical model for each job, they are not interchangeable or readily comparable. I would also challenge your confusion of economic need vs. want, though I understand your colloquial usage of the terms. 

I apologize for the confusion if you misunderstood my point, but I am more of the neoclassical subjective LTV school of thought.

In brief, for the purpose of fry cooks, the largest determinant of their value is the convenience they produce. other determinants being ease of replacement and workforce entry, minimal marginal utility, and elasticity of labor demand, among others.

The open market curves do not presently favor a high wage value for standard fry cooks. To raise wages involves some sort of wage/price floor, resulting in a reduced profit in the firm, and thus an increased cost to the consumer, thus a decreased convenience. For the typical QSR fry cook, being cheap and easy is fundamental, as cheap and easy is the product they are selling. However, there are many factors at play, and consumers are free to determine value as they wish, although I would posit that in an open reflexive market a higher paid fry cook would need to generate enough of a comparative advantage to offset the price increase. (similar to the 5 guys burgers model) Though then we open the door to discussing assigning precentage value to the worker vs. the firm for the increased revenue, which is difficult.

Though I will acknowledge the labor market is not truly open.

So...that is(are) the measuring stick(s) I am using...

I would guess that your thinking is more along the lines of an old thought experiment known as the 'diamond-water' paradox. Allowing for consumer subjective freedom helps resolves that. Wikipedia may help if you wish a deeper understanding.

As confusing as all that is, basically I am presupposing the company is going to act to maximize revenues. Often, this entails keeping wages low, prices low, the inexorable link and elasticity of the two.


Perhaps to clarify I would suggest that the wage/labor curve responds to a much more rational assumption that workers wish to be compensated for their labor. They own their own labor and sell it accordingly.

For EMS, there is much more irrationality (in an economic sense) in the mix as laborers are willing to work for free or reductions in income out of the goodness of their hearts., or because it is cool and fun, or because it is a stepping stone to better things. This factor reduces the ability to quantify the labor value, and I would think, reduces the income but offsets it by exchanging other consideration. If this is the case, and I believe it is, it diminishes the value of EMS over the long run, and the maximal "income" is garnered roughly around 3-7 years. It is an occupation best enjoyed in the short run. Interestingly this time frame is probably where the majority of folks leave the field...though I wont speak to causality.


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## JPINFV (May 25, 2013)

Arovetli said:


> Many people work 50-80 hours and make less than 50k. On a historical and global scale, we should all be so lucky to have so much, though I am as irrational and greedy as anyone else. I have no qualms about keeping medicare expenditures, and in turn resident income, low. (The tuition and loan situation is another matter). The pay is low because it can be low, there is no incentive to change it, and perhaps increased funds would be better put to use to fund additional slots.



Well, the vast majority of people benefit from keeping other people's wages low. If ____ is paid less, than _____ service is cheaper. 




> You would need to generate a curve and mathematical model for each job, they are not interchangeable or readily comparable. I would also challenge your confusion of economic need vs. want, though I understand your colloquial usage of the terms.
> 
> I apologize for the confusion if you misunderstood my point, but I am more of the neoclassical subjective LTV school of thought.
> 
> ...



It depends on what matrix you use to determine value.  The problem is that EMS often goes into the "We save lives" chant  (normally followed by a grunt and a fart). By that matrix alone, public  health is more important than medicine. Clean water, clean streets, and a  sewage system saves a whole lot more lives than even the best EMS  system. Similarly, by a simplistic "how much do I use ___ service,"  emergency services in general are low on that list since generally  people don't need them. When you do need them, you -need- them, but it's  not a day in/day out need. Now in terms of value added to society,  there's multiple issues. One is, and I agree, it's difficult to measure.  How many "lives" does EMS save, and what's the economic impact of that?  By having service jobs that prepare food, how much efficiency, and by  connection production, does that add? Certainly getting food from a  roach coach is quicker than making it yourself. Similarly, what about  non-monetary contributions? EMS providing pain relief doesn't produce a  positive economic benefit (it also doesn't save lives). However neither  of those can be used to suggest that EMS should not provide pain  control. 

Economics are terrible at quantifying non-economic benefits. 



> Perhaps to clarify I would suggest that the wage/labor curve responds to a much more rational assumption that workers wish to be compensated for their labor. They own their own labor and sell it accordingly.



The problem is that the concept of people selling their labor (i.e. selling themselves) is seen as dirty, and most people don't view their role in the job market in that manner. Of course when only one side of the table is interested in actually negotiating, labor price battles becomes rather one sided.


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## Clipper1 (May 25, 2013)

PoeticInjustice said:


> Don't waste it, this has gotten ridiculous.



The troll comment always shows up when some in EMS don't want to believe their profession is not perfect. Other professions have responded to what the needs are for their industry and made changes.  EMS still wants to argue the minimum is good enough and that respect or entitlement just comes with the certification.


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## Arovetli (May 25, 2013)

JPINFV said:


> Well, the vast majority of people benefit from keeping other people's wages low. If ____ is paid less, than _____ service is cheaper.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Indeed, it is impossible to fully quantify behavior. Altuism alters much, and health economics is a far different subset responding to atypical forces. Insurance causes problems.

Though I'd say EMS providing pain management does produce economic benefits, if only to increase customer valuation of the service. A clean ambulance does not improve patient care or reimbursement directly, however having unsightly trucks may effect the consumer perception, contracts, satisfaction, etc.

Presently the majority function of American EMS is logistical. Providing life support, while noble, is sometimes economically valued as if it were refrigerating a perishable good in transit. Though that is the bulk of the job, and I say that not to diminish the importance of ALS care in the field or devalue life.


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## STXmedic (May 25, 2013)

Clipper1 said:


> The troll comment always shows up when some in EMS don't want to believe their profession is not perfect. Other professions have responded to what the needs are for their industry and made changes.  EMS still wants to argue the minimum is good enough and that respect or entitlement just comes with the certification.



Oh, no, you misunderstand me. I'm fully aware of how :censored::censored::censored::censored:ty and ***-backwards our EMS system is. I am actively trying to get out and advance further. You're addressing the wrong person with that comment.

The troll comments tend to come from when somebody makes completely moronic remarks, or make completely asinine and non sensible arguments. If you feel that it seems to be directed towards you frequently, you may consider evaluating the quality and validity of your rebuttals.


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## Handsome Robb (May 25, 2013)

NPO said:


> Would it be nice to be making what Fire or PD makes? Yeah.
> Should we be paid more than $10/hr? Yeah.
> 
> But I don't do my job for the paycheck, I do it because I look forward to going to work. Because I like what I do and the people I serve.
> ...



Really?

I can't decide if you're serious or not. This is a job. We work to support ourselves and our families... That involves being paid. While I do love my job and enjoy helping people you can bet your *** I sure as hell won't be doing it for free. 

I don't understand the whole "if you're here for a paycheck you're here for the wrong reason." That's bull:censored::censored::censored::censored:. I don't work for fun. I work to have fun on my days off. 

While I see your point NPO, I 100% disagree with you. There's no reason FFs and LEOs should get paid exponentially more than us. My old partner got hired as a SO deputy. Her *training* wage is nearly 4 dollars an hour more than I make as a paramedic. Once she clears her probation her salary is ~25k a year more than me working in the County Jail before she promotes to patrol and gets paid even more.

The county FD pays their fire medics nearly double what I make. I see, on average 9 patients a day in 12 hours while they see maybe 5 in a 48 hour shift and all they do is grab so vitals, ask some questions then pass off care to myself and my partner. How are you OK with that? Yea they have to maintain proficiency in two skill subsets but it definitely isn't worth double what I make. 

McDonald's employees make more than most EMTs. I took nearly a two dollar an hour pay cut to go from getting paid to tan, watch girls and occasionally go out on a jet ski or rescue board to rescue someone. 

I'd be willing to bet that salary is the biggest reason people leave EMS.


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## CFal (May 25, 2013)

You have to increase the salary to retain quality EMTs and medics.  When you get a hgigher salary then you will start seeing more education getting degrees for promotion, EMS can learn a lot from fire.


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## STXmedic (May 25, 2013)

CFal said:


> You have to increase the salary to retain quality EMTs and medics.  When you get a hgigher salary then you will start seeing more education getting degrees for promotion, EMS can learn a lot from fire.



What exactly do you propose EMS learns from fire? A strong union is about the only thing I hope EMS learns from them.


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## CFal (May 25, 2013)

PoeticInjustice said:


> What exactly do you propose EMS learns from fire? A strong union is about the only thing I hope EMS learns from them.



strong union is one, and most give a pay boost for a degree and they can get degrees while working.
They also have strong PR


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## Handsome Robb (May 25, 2013)

CFal said:


> You have to increase the salary to retain quality EMTs and medics.  When you get a hgigher salary then you will start seeing more education getting degrees for promotion, EMS can learn a lot from fire.



Like what? Please, enlighten me.

I love the guys and gals from the FDs around here. With that said, there's only a handful I trust as a primary provider. The EMTs and Medics that are truly interested in medicine don't work for fire the majority of the time. Obviously there are exceptions to that rule. Just like there are FDs that provide great medical care but that's not the norm.

Union, absolutely. I'm all ears. Other than that? No thanks.

We aren't going to see increase in salary until education standards increase, you've got it backwards. You know why salaries are low? Because the education standards are crap so the market is over saturated with "qualified" individuals. 

There isn't much room at all for promotion within EMS. 

This is an EMS website, fire fanboys should see www.firehouse.com for their FF forum needs.


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## BigBad (May 25, 2013)

I make $21 an hr as a medic and make  KILLING in overtime.   You will never make a living as a basic, but its good foot in the door and experience.   If its money you want, go to nursing school, work in the icu for 3 years then get on flights.


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## CFal (May 25, 2013)

Robb said:


> Like what? Please, enlighten me.
> 
> I love the guys and gals from the FDs around here. With that said, there's only a handful I trust as a primary provider. The EMTs and Medics that are truly interested in medicine don't work for fire the majority of the time. Obviously there are exceptions to that rule. Just like there are FDs that provide great medical care but that's not the norm.
> 
> ...



I'm talking organizational structure, not medical care.  If salaries increase, there will be more competition for the job and more people getting degrees.


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## Handsome Robb (May 25, 2013)

CFal said:


> I'm talking organizational structure, not medical care.  If salaries increase, there will be more competition for the job and more people getting degrees.



You're not going to see an increase in salary when there's a hundred people behind the guy that doesn't like it that will take the minimum wage. 

Where's the motivation to pay us more without us bringing something to the table to make ourselves worth more?


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## VFlutter (May 25, 2013)

CFal said:


> If salaries increase, there will be more competition for the job and more people getting degrees.



Uh, No. :rofl:

Let me know how that works out for you...


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## NPO (May 25, 2013)

Robb said:


> Really?
> 
> I can't decide if you're serious or not. This is a job. We work to support ourselves and our families... That involves being paid. While I do love my job and enjoy helping people you can bet your *** I sure as hell won't be doing it for free.
> 
> ...



I am serious. I am 20 years old. I do not hold a college degree or anything special to put me above EMT certification. I do not have a family to support.

Instead I am realistic about what I am worth and understand my place to work up to a higher paying salary such as paramedic or fire.


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## Rialaigh (May 25, 2013)

Until society finds a way to utilize EMS systems more (than just running calls) pay won't be that great. Put an EMT/Paramedic into an ER, make them tech and then run calls when they come in, come back to the ER and continue to tech, and you will see pay go up.

* You have to find a way to utilize EMS personnel for more than the amount of time per shift they are being utilized now. 
*

Whether that is by staffing public events, or doing preventive care and events, or utilizing your staff in the hospital system or at a clinic. Something....something has to be done before pay will increase

Fact is - I work as a ER tech at a 26 bed ER (8 more hallway beds and an internal wait area). My scope of practice as an ER tech is higher than that of an EMT-B (basically). I do EKG's, I vital people, I transport people, I place splints and casts on people, etc etc...I will be on my feet for the full 12 hour shift, I get a 30 minute lunch break, every room in the ER will be full with people in the hall way for an average of 7-8 hours out of a 12 hour shift, the place is busy...and I make less than an EMT-B at our local service. I can't wait to get out and start working paid for 9-1-1...its just flat out SO MUCH EASIER.....


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## chaz90 (May 25, 2013)

Rialaigh said:


> * You have to find a way to utilize EMS personnel for more than the amount of time per shift they are being utilized now.
> *
> Fact is - I work as a ER tech at a 26 bed ER (8 more hallway beds and an internal wait area). My scope of practice as an ER tech is higher than that of an EMT-B (basically). I do EKG's, I vital people, I transport people, I place splints and casts on people, etc etc...



EMTs in many places place EKG electrodes and are always able to take vitals, transport, and place splints. Full casts really don't have a place prehospitally, so that doesn't quite apply. 
I don't think unit hour utilization is the biggest problem with compensation either. Many private urban systems are among the busiest of all EMS and also pay the worst wages. Picture all the primary IFT companies thay have their staff running their entire 12 hour shift and posting SSM on the little bit of downtime they have. The argument could be made that primary IFT is really a totally different animal than public utility or third service 911 response, but hours actually productive is still only one part of a larger issue.

The big thing to increase wages would have to be creating additional opportunities in EMS. This could come from adding hospital time or community paramedicine (as you mentioned), but I believe that added value will come from increased promotional opportunities and education more than just less free time. Right now, far too many of the youngest EMS recruits are only using this as a stepping stone for something else. To be perfectly honest, I'm doing the same thing. I love EMS and want to see it improve, but I don't plan on staying in this career for the next 40 years to retirement. As long as we have this vocational mindset instead of long term career, it will be hard to increase wages with high turnover constantly expected.


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## 46Young (May 25, 2013)

CFal said:


> strong union is one, and most give a pay boost for a degree and they can get degrees while working.
> They also have strong PR



Quoted for truth. The only reason I'm currently completing my AAS in EMS right now is because it gives me 10 percent on the Lt exam, and 15 percent on the Capt I exam. A Bachelor's gives you 20% on the Capt II, and 25%  on the BC test. I've actually a fair number of our newer firemedics coming in with EMS degrees. When asked why they got the degree, the typical answer is that it helps for promotion (not hiring). 

It's common to assign blame to the fire service for retarding educational advancement in EMS, but outside of Oregon and maybe one other state, EMS employers typically ask for a GED, maybe experience, a valid cert, and a clean driving record. That's about it. All these hospital based, third service, and private EMS employers are equally at blame for maintaining consistently low hiring standards in regards to education. Look up Wake Co. NC right now. Lee County Fl. Charleston County SC. FDNY EMS. Any NYC hospital based EMS. Richmond Ambulance Authority. Any private company. King Co. Medic One. GED, cert, clean driving/criminal history. Back in 2007, with NR -P and NYC experience, I could have worked municipal in pretty much any state, and not have a problem getting hired.


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## 46Young (May 25, 2013)

Robb said:


> Like what? Please, enlighten me.
> 
> I love the guys and gals from the FDs around here. With that said, there's only a handful I trust as a primary provider. The EMTs and Medics that are truly interested in medicine don't work for fire the majority of the time. Obviously there are exceptions to that rule. Just like there are FDs that provide great medical care but that's not the norm.
> 
> ...



No pay increase until mandatory degrees for employment. Most people don't want to martyr themselves with a degree when they're just going to make $11 - $15/hr for ALS in most places. Many people also don't stay in EMS long enough to organize for anything anyway. Catch -22.

After the AAS in EMS, I'm probably going to do Pub Admin with a minor in EM to grab a Chief level position, or at least mid level supervisor in EMS or fire after I retire, probably somewhere in the Southeast. That's much more useful and versatile than a BA or BS in EMS if your career goals involce mid to upper level supervisory positions.


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## 46Young (May 25, 2013)

Rialaigh said:


> Until society finds a way to utilize EMS systems more (than just running calls) pay won't be that great. Put an EMT/Paramedic into an ER, make them tech and then run calls when they come in, come back to the ER and continue to tech, and you will see pay go up.
> 
> * You have to find a way to utilize EMS personnel for more than the amount of time per shift they are being utilized now.
> *
> ...



Yes, for an EMS employer to be regarded as  indispensable to the taxpayers,  they need to snake in to as many different areas as they can. How about replacing school nurses, for example? The school medic could ride with the patient to the hospital instead of handing the child off to another provider, and the medic who arrived in the ambulance could staff the school office until the other medic returns. Same deal for Urgent Care facilities. Medics certaily get paid less than nurses, so there's an added cost saving measure.


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## Arovetli (May 25, 2013)

I always thought being a paramedic was much more of a skill set rather than an all inclusive career. It's a pretty effective skill set when combined with other skills, such as administrative or research or educational or firefighting, law enforcement/security, nursing or allied health, etc. there's quite a bit of upward mobility if your capable or willing or able to combine it with something. 

EMT->Medic->B.S.->P.A. is a pretty nice professional pathway I think.

I suppose I mean to say that we are all entrepreneurs of at least one enterprise: ourselves. Perhaps it should be less of 'they won't pay me enough for the skills I provide' and more of 'I'm going to develop a valuable set of skills, find the right market, and sell at the price I am happy with'.


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## exodus (May 25, 2013)

Rialaigh said:


> Until society finds a way to utilize EMS systems more (than just running calls) pay won't be that great. Put an EMT/Paramedic into an ER, make them tech and then run calls when they come in, come back to the ER and continue to tech, and you will see pay go up.
> 
> * You have to find a way to utilize EMS personnel for more than the amount of time per shift they are being utilized now.
> *
> ...



Around here, there's no way that's possible, we're too busy to even leave the rigs some days.


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## Handsome Robb (May 25, 2013)

exodus said:


> Around here, there's no way that's possible, we're too busy to even leave the rigs some days.



Same here.

It's slowed down a bit lately but it's pretty common for us to run back to back all day long. Constantly in motion. Maybe we aren't on our feet for 12 hours but I've had days where I've driven 300-350 miles going to calls and doing post moves. That's exhausting by itself then add in patient care from the mental and physical aspect as well as charting...it makes for a busy day.


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## CFal (May 25, 2013)

Robb said:


> You're not going to see an increase in salary when there's a hundred people behind the guy that doesn't like it that will take the minimum wage.
> 
> Where's the motivation to pay us more without us bringing something to the table to make ourselves worth more?



Where's there motivation to get a degree when you are making the same as someone without?


----------



## CFal (May 25, 2013)

EMS also needs to put in a better chain of command, look at fire for this.  Do they need as many officer's as they have? probably not, but it shows FFs that there is progression upwards, for the most part there is basics and medics and not much to advance past that.


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## shfd739 (May 26, 2013)

Robb said:


> Same here.
> 
> It's slowed down a bit lately but it's pretty common for us to run back to back all day long. Constantly in motion. Maybe we aren't on our feet for 12 hours but I've had days where I've driven 300-350 miles going to calls and doing post moves. That's exhausting by itself then add in patient care from the mental and physical aspect as well as charting...it makes for a busy day.



Same here. We're way too busy and could stand to add a couple units but it wont happen. That costs money and eats up profit. 

Instead we beat everyone to death every shift with posting and a high volume. Then the uppers wonder why people dont want to hang around and the ones that do are unhappy. 

Its impossible to make this 20 year career doing SSM. ive only been in this atmosphere for 4 years and Im looking for my way out.


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## Handsome Robb (May 26, 2013)

CFal said:


> EMS also needs to put in a better chain of command, look at fire for this.  Do they need as many officer's as they have? probably not, but it shows FFs that there is progression upwards, for the most part there is basics and medics and not much to advance past that.



Where is the room for a fire style chain of command in EMS? Fire runs multiple apparatuses with multiple crew members whereas an ambulance has two people crew members and either the more senior employee or the highest medically trained is in charge.  Many larger fire departments are split into divisions as well that adds more room for supervisory positions. Above them there are your field supervisors then you get into administrative positions. There just isn't room for that setup in my opinion. 

The salary thing isn't going to change overnight. It's going to take a nationwide  overhaul of our EMS system and education requirements to reduce the over saturation the job market before we can even think about a worthwhile boost in the national average salary. There are places out there that pay their medics well, it's just not the norm.


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## Ecgg (May 26, 2013)

It's not uncommon to see people with much more time invested BA/BS/MS/PhD and with family do complete 180 into a different career path because they are not satisfied with pay or the job. 

Yet it's constant whining wah we did this 3 months course why 10 dollars an hour?

I guess you could wait and hope that things change lol. Or you could research a career that offers the compensation that you seek, and work your *** off now to get it or you can keep whining.


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## Handsome Robb (May 26, 2013)

Ecgg said:


> It's not uncommon to see people with much more time invested BA/BS/MS/PhD and with family do complete 180 into a different career path because they are not satisfied with pay or the job.
> 
> Yet it's constant whining wah we did this 3 months course why 10 dollars an hour?
> 
> I guess you could wait and hope that things change lol. Or you could research a career that offers the compensation that you seek, and work your *** off now to get it or you can keep whining.



Was that directed at me or a general you?


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## Ecgg (May 26, 2013)

Robb said:


> Was that directed at me or a general you?



It's general because we are all card carrying members.


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## ExpatMedic0 (May 26, 2013)

CFal said:


> Where's there motivation to get a degree when you are making the same as someone without?



Because all those people with humanities degrees are cashing in right?

I get what your saying here, and indeed that is a motivational factor for many. However extrinsic and intrinsic motivation are often helpful when working towards goals such as a higher degree.


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## looker (May 26, 2013)

Salary is base on supply and demand. If tomorrow becomes shortage of EMT, you will see salary start going up until the point that shortage no longer exist. Until such thing happens, don't expect to see any higher salary as your skills do not worth much when you can easily be replaced. With auto cars coming soon, one day you might find that you no longer need a driver in the car and will result in you only getting minimum wage.


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## Arovetli (May 26, 2013)

looker said:


> With auto cars coming soon.



Google Ambulance??


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## Rialaigh (May 26, 2013)

exodus said:


> Around here, there's no way that's possible, we're too busy to even leave the rigs some days.



Point being that is not the norm for EMS. If every service ran like this the pay would be much higher throughout the industry.


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## looker (May 26, 2013)

Arovetli said:


> Google Ambulance??



Why not? Computer can automatically check traffic and adjust as needed to get to ER or accident scene as fast as possible. Plus less chances of accident to occur while going code 3.


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## JPINFV (May 26, 2013)

looker said:


> With auto cars coming soon, one day you might find that you no longer need a driver in the car and will result in you only getting minimum wage.


You're still going to need two people to safely move the gurney (unless someone adds steer wheels like on hospital gurneys) and two people to move the patient too and from the gurney.


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## VFlutter (May 26, 2013)

CFal said:


> Where's there motivation to get a degree when you are making the same as someone without?



Personal improvement, more career options, graduate education.... It is not all about the money. 

Physical Therapists just moved from a Masters to a Doctorate degree without an increase in average pay and there are still waiting lists for PT schools. 

At the hospital where I work all new grad RNs start out at the same pay rate regardless of ADN or BSN. Did I waste my time since I make the same as someone without a Bachelors and 2 years less of schooling?


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## troymclure (May 26, 2013)

i just left a job making 21.50/ph, 12hours a day minimum. $300/day. whether i got out of my rack or not, thats what i got paid. i also got paid depth pay up to $800/dive. my best day ever was $1300.(pre tax)

but the work environment was crap, i was on non paid on-call 24/7, when i was called it was generally with a 3 hour notice, and im 2 hours from the shop. i could work 1 day, or 45 days, no prior notice, etc...
also vacations and making any kind of plans was not going to happen. 

tho i only worked 157 days last year, i was GONE for all of them, im hoping i can have more home time with this career, and also have more opportunity to go out and do stuff. if i can do that and make $20k a year ill be happy.


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## Arovetli (May 26, 2013)

Lets not forget how profitable all this education is to the schools and to the government...

The complaints about pay should be compared to the overall job market prospects. With nearly half of college grads under or un employed, many professions struggling, a trend of college grads moving back in with their parents, furloughs....Its a terrible job market out there.


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## 46Young (May 26, 2013)

Chase said:


> Personal improvement, more career options, graduate education.... It is not all about the money.
> 
> Physical Therapists just moved from a Masters to a Doctorate degree without an increase in average pay and there are still waiting lists for PT schools.
> 
> At the hospital where I work all new grad RNs start out at the same pay rate regardless of ADN or BSN. Did I waste my time since I make the same as someone without a Bachelors and 2 years less of schooling?



As far as personal improvement, that's debatable. The Gen-Eds may have some benefit, but outside of maybe a foreign language course as a humanities elective, nothing else outside of the core curriculum will make me a more effective paramedic.

I can definitely see the benefit for career options, but that's typically outside of EMS. The EMS AAS degree still won't hold any additional benefit over just a cert at your current EMS job. 

For Physical Therapist, I don't know why they're going for a Doctorate. Is it possible that the field is expanding, and the additional coursework is needed to address advances in that field? Do they desire more autonomy, or to protect their interests from other medical professionals? IDK

Your choice to go with the BSN helps you in two ways - a career ladder is available to you, when it wouldn't be had you went with the Associates, and there's a trend for hospitals to either require, or give hiring preference to BSN's. That's different than EMS, where a valid cert and experience are king. 

It seems that those wanting educational advancements in EMS are generally seeking scope of practice, pay, and versatility that mid-level practitioners have. Do you think anyone would go to school to become a PA or NP if it paid $12 - $15/hr? I certainly wouldn't. But that's what EMS education advocates say that we must do in order to raise our pay, scope, and relevance in the medical community. I'm certainly not going to school for four years to make $40,000/yr working 48-56 hours a week. I'm going to go to PA school instead. See how that works? 

There's an upper limit to what paramedics could do, and should be able to do in the field. After a point, you're trying to overlap with other medical professions. I could see the Advance Care Paramedic advocates looking to muscle in on nursing with home care, wellness checks, compliance with discharge care plans for frequent fliers and such. But, that's nursing! Same thing for ER Techs wanting to run codes and push meds in an ED. That's what a PA or nurse can do, respectively. IFT is more appropriately done by nurses that specialize in a particular type of transport, and respiratory more appropriately handled by a RRT. It would be overreaching to have a Bachelors paramedic that can do every type of IFT without needing a nurse or RRT. 

I'm seeing an increasing trend of students taking the paramedic program through a college, but not doing the degree, just the core curriculum. The ones that go back for the degree, like myself, are generally doing it because it will help for a promotion somewhere down the line, or because the additional classes will apply to another medical degree, such as nursing.


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## Ecgg (May 27, 2013)

46Young said:


> As far as personal improvement, that's debatable. The Gen-Eds may have some benefit, but outside of maybe a foreign language course as a humanities elective, nothing else outside of the core curriculum will make me a more effective paramedic.



Actually if go out of the community college range there is lots of classes that would make one more effective paramedic. I'd even say that would be much better than core curriculum.



I agree with the rest of the post.


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## RustyShackleford (May 28, 2013)

In some other countries, mostly commonwealth I find, salaries are on par with police, fire, RN etc.  Then again in Canada etc we are taxed out the ***.


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## Arovetli (May 28, 2013)

RustyShackleford said:


> In some other countries, mostly commonwealth I find, salaries are on par with police, fire, RN etc.  Then again in Canada etc we are taxed out the ***.



True North, strong and free...


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## fortsmithman (May 29, 2013)

RustyShackleford said:


> In some other countries, mostly commonwealth I find, salaries are on par with police, fire, RN etc.  Then again in Canada etc we are taxed out the ***.



All depends on the province or territory you are in.  In the NWT, Nunavut Yukon and the northern parts of BC, AB SK, MB, ON, PQ  and NF we have a lot of income tax deductions for just living in the north.


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## OhYasseen (Jun 2, 2013)

Right now I work in the television industry - I figured I'm destroying enough lives so I may as well become an EMT and save a life - and I'm on my way to studying to become an EMT (God willing) and when I learned what the pay is as an EMT I thought "I'm not going in it for the pay. I'm going in it for the life."

I don't mind it at all.

I can comfortably live on 40k/year in California. It's about the job. And, as I'm sure any EMT would agree with me, if you want to be an EMT and earn a lot of money, you're hearts probably not in the right place. And if you're already an EMT and the pay is what you came for, you'll probably quit sooner rather than later.

Personally, I know I won't mind it at all. like I said, It's the life I want.


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## OhYasseen (Jun 2, 2013)

By the way, that was more of the general "You". Not YOU in particular


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## VA Transport EMT (Jun 2, 2013)

Wow you get $10???


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## Jim37F (Jun 2, 2013)

VA Transport EMT said:


> Wow you get $10???



That's what I get, $10.00 an hour, time and a half after 8 hours with 11 hour shifts, 3-4 days a week on my current schedule. I'm in a Lis Angeles IFT only company though.


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## VA Transport EMT (Jun 3, 2013)

wow!

I work with the third largest agency in the country and make $9.30 an hour.


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## Wildsky (Jun 5, 2013)

I do it for free.... I'm a volunteer, I have a regular job to pay the bills.


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## Robert Canady (Jun 20, 2013)

Starting at $11.00. Private service.


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## RocketMedic (Jun 20, 2013)

Wildsky said:


> I do it for free.... I'm a volunteer, I have a regular job to pay the bills.



How would you feel about volunteers in your regular job?


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## Robert Canady (Jun 20, 2013)

Volunteers do it from the heart.  I don't have a problem with them...it's where I started.


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## NomadicMedic (Jun 20, 2013)

Rocketmedic40 said:


> How would you feel about volunteers in your regular job?



I don't have a problem if volunteers are the only service and the community can't, or won't, support paid EMS. However… I feel that the educational and competency requirements to become and remain a satisfactory level ALS provider is more than most volunteers are willing or able to commit to. 

I also have a problem when volunteers offer to do my job for free.

When people ask me why I am against volunteer ALS providers, I ask them, "if you had a brain tumor would you want the guy that does it every day as his career to remove it or the guy who works as a gardener every day and volunteers as a brain surgeon on the weekend to do it?"

Yeah. That's what I thought


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## JPINFV (Jun 20, 2013)

Robert Canady said:


> Volunteers do it from the heart.  I don't have a problem with them...it's where I started.




...and career do it with their whole body and soul. You know... since their entire life is dependent on doing well at their job.


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## STXmedic (Jun 20, 2013)

Robert Canady said:


> Volunteers do it from the heart.  I don't have a problem with them...it's where I started.






JPINFV said:


> ...and career do it with their whole body and soul. You know... since their entire life is dependent on doing well at their job.


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## Wheel (Jun 20, 2013)

PoeticInjustice said:


>



Stolen, thank you


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## cruiseforever (Jun 20, 2013)

Medics start at 19.38.


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## RocketMedic (Jun 21, 2013)

13.71 is a day-1 medic here at EMSA. Im at Step 2, which in OKC is a base rate of 15.36/hr. Tulsa pays 18% more, is on a rotating schedule with a 42-hour work week.


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## Rialaigh (Jun 21, 2013)

DEmedic said:


> I don't have a problem if volunteers are the only service and the community can't, or won't, support paid EMS. However… I feel that the educational and competency requirements to become and remain a satisfactory level ALS provider is more than most volunteers are willing or able to commit to.
> 
> I also have a problem when volunteers offer to do my job for free.
> 
> ...



Several comments on this post...

1.



DEmedic said:


> I don't have a problem if volunteers are the only service and the community can't, or won't, support paid EMS. However… I feel that the educational and competency requirements to become and remain a satisfactory level ALS provider is more than most volunteers are willing or able to commit to.



If your problem with volunteers is the educational and competency requirements then we are talking about a much larger issue. You should still have a problem with them in under-served communities that cannot afford pay staff because the quality of service is still not up to par (making huge generalizations). 

2. 



DEmedic said:


> I also have a problem when volunteers offer to do my job for free.



If your problem with volunteers is that they are offering to do a job for free that you get paid to do then clearly your primary concern is your salary and not the medical well being and service of those that EMS serves. If your in this for the money then your either very very good at your job and compensated as such or your not very good at picking careers 

3. 



DEmedic said:


> When people ask me why I am against volunteer ALS providers, I ask them, "if you had a brain tumor would you want the guy that does it every day as his career to remove it or the guy who works as a gardener every day and volunteers as a brain surgeon on the weekend to do it?"
> 
> Yeah. That's what I thought



This is such an apples and oranges situation that it's not even close. I know volunteer agencies that run 10 times the amount of call as paid agencies near here. I know volunteers that see more cardiac arrests and trauma's in 24 hours volunteering then some paid guys see in a month (on average). I know volunteers that are part of "progressive agencies" and practice critical care skills far more often then a lot of paid guys who cannot do it at all. 

Aside from the fact that frequently medics that volunteer at agencies are either working full time for one or two other agencies (and thus generally see decently high call volume as well as are very dedicated to their profession). Or they are a nurse/md/respiratory therapist/some other medical professional, and they have an increased understanding and knowledge of the healthcare system and the way and ability to treat patients.



I think volunteer BLS is much much much worse then volunteer ALS. A lot of the fire department guys (not picking on them) picked up their EMT-B because they were required for their job, they got it in a 6 week crash course with a basically gaurunteed pass if they showed up for class....




To comment on the salary portion our medics here (running 10's at 12's) start at about 16 at the highest paying area 9-1-1. IFT starts at about 16 as well. We have some local small counties that run 24/72 and their medics start at 12.


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## usalsfyre (Jun 21, 2013)

Rialaigh said:


> This is such an apples and oranges situation that it's not even close. I know volunteer agencies that run 10 times the amount of call as paid agencies near here.


I call malarkey. If we're talking cities of comparable size there's no way. 



Rialaigh said:


> TI know volunteers that see more cardiac arrests and trauma's in 24 hours volunteering then some paid guys see in a month (on average).


Again, malarkey. This is the kind of stuff volunteers LOVE to throw out, but there usually talking about a large city that happens to be covered by volleys vs a smaller rural paid agency. As much of an apples to oranges comparison as the brain surgeon stuff above. In addition there are VERY few places where the an average medic consistently sees multiple traumas and/or arrest a shift. VERY few...



Rialaigh said:


> TI know volunteers that are part of "progressive agencies" and practice critical care skills far more often then a lot of paid guys who cannot do it at all.


I don't know of one volunteer critical care transport program in the US. Not one. There's one "flight program" staffed by volunteers (a PD aircraft that takes a volunteer medic on medical flights) but I hesitate to include that one because one it's not a primary medical aircraft and two the need to fly a patient in that area is nearly non-existent. 

Volunteer ALS is a relic of days gone by. It's time to move past it. I was a new EMT-B at the mercy of volunteer medics, I ended up running a lot of things I had no business running. As a profession it's time to move on.


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## NomadicMedic (Jun 21, 2013)

Rialaigh said:


> Several comments on this post... if your problem with volunteers is the educational and competency requirements then we are talking about a much larger issue. You should still have a problem with them in under-served communities that cannot afford pay staff because the quality of service is still not up to par (making huge generalizations).



Nope. I have issues that many volunteer medics lack the sheer volume of calls that build competency. Maryland is a perfect example of this. 



> if your problem with volunteers is that they are offering to do a job for free that you get paid to do then clearly your primary concern is your salary and not the medical well being and service of those that EMS serves. If your in this for the money then your either very very good at your job and compensated as such or your not very good at picking careers



Yep. I am concerned with my salary. I work as a paramedic to support my family and pay my bills. Why can't I be concerned about my pay as well as those I serve. And, I am pretty good at what I do... and I picked a service that pays well in an area with a low cost of living. So, I'd guess I'm pretty good at picking careers, too. 




> this is is such an apples and oranges situation that it's not even close. I know volunteer agencies that run 10 times the amount of call as paid agencies near here. I know volunteers that see more cardiac arrests and trauma's in 24 hours volunteering then some paid guys see in a month (on average). I know volunteers that are part of "progressive agencies" and practice critical care skills far more often then a lot of paid guys who cannot do it at all.



And I know a guy who claims he can sing just like John Lennon. That doesn't make him a rock star. Who cares if "you know volunteers that run a lot of calls"? That's no argument, it's just anecdotal blather. 

Show me that volunteer EMS providers exceed the number of con ed hours required by professional agencies. Show me that volunteer ALS first pass intubation rates are on par with professional career ALS agencies. Show me cardiac arrest statistics that prove volunteer ALS providers do it better than career medics.


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## chaz90 (Jun 22, 2013)

Most of the time a post is removed it's because it was offensive to the community at large, contributed nothing useful, or was deliberately inflammatory. Don't be that guy.


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## STXmedic (Jun 22, 2013)

Too late.... :unsure:


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## ffemt8978 (Jun 22, 2013)

PoeticInjustice said:


> Too late.... :unsure:



And then some.


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## RocketMedic (Jun 22, 2013)

I have learned that my time is most definitely worth something, and professionals value their time in money, not in nebulous satisfaction.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jun 22, 2013)

Rocketmedic40 said:


> I have learned that my time is most definitely worth something, and professionals value their time in money, not in nebulous satisfaction.



+1 to this


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## Trashtruck (Jun 22, 2013)

Yeah!

If you want this(Me)...pay me.


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## Arovetli (Jun 24, 2013)

Trashtruck said:


> Yeah!
> 
> If you want this(Me)...pay me.



i think though, there are too many willing to work for less than you, or 10 people willing to live their life on an ambulance, thinking they are moving up in the world by raking in tons of overtime on an $8/hr base rate.


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## NomadicMedic (Jun 24, 2013)

Exactly. When people complain that "we're lifesavers and we're not paid enough!" I remind them that EMTs and Paramedics are a dime a dozen and the pay is based on economy of scale. If there's bunches of people who will work for 8 bucks and hour there's not logic in paying one penny more than that. 

That's one reason paramedic pay in King County is so good. They control the supply and create their own demand.


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## DrankTheKoolaid (Jun 25, 2013)

While that is true it is no different then nursing and there wages are not so disproportionately low. 

Nurses are a dime a dozen even more so then paramedics so I really don't believe that is a valid argument.  i love volunteers but they are the reason career EMS staff are paid so little


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jun 25, 2013)

The answer is simple ladies and gentlemen. Raise national education standards (to include mandatory degrees) and you will effectively rid yourself of "Redneck Rickie Rescue." 
They took our jobs! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIHDI9bXQ3k


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## Carlos Danger (Jun 25, 2013)

EMS providers are paid what their labor is worth to those signing their paychecks....no more and no less.

Basically what happens is this: A private agency will take their revenue (what they can bill from insurance, plus any contractual stipends), subtract overhead and capital expenses, take a fat chunk for the owners or shareholders, and divide what's left among the employees in the form of wages and benefits. A public agency has differences, but is more similar than not.

*The primary reason why paramedics don't make a lot of money is the simple fact that medical transportation isn't a lucrative business, so there just isn't that much money to go around.* Revenue is low and costs are high. That's all. 

The second reason why paramedics don't make much is that the supply vs. demand of labor is not in the paramedics' favor. Most areas have more paramedics than the number of positions will support, so it puts downward pressure on wages. It is an employer's market.  




Corky said:


> i love volunteers but they are the reason career EMS staff are paid so little



This idea is way overblown.

I would submit that most EMS compensation rates are relatively unaffected by volunteers. I don't doubt that it is a factor in some cases, but I think it is probably a much smaller factor than it is generally credited as being.

Remember what I wrote above: 1) there is only so much money to go around, and 2) labor supply:demand balance is important. Volunteers don't have much affect on either of those, in most cases.

Usually, volunteers cover low-volume areas that would bring little revenue to commercial agencies and would create few jobs. Only a few full-time paramedics would need to be hired to replace a department of dozens of volunteers, so if the vollies went away, the overall impact on the balance of labor supply:demand is pretty minimal, as would be the impact on wages.

If you think about it, the existence of volunteers in some cases probably supports wages. Because if you wipe out a volunteer agency with 20 volunteer paramedics, what will you replace it with? 5 or 6 full time paramedics? Assuming the vollies want to stay involved in EMS, they will now be competing for those 5 or 6 positions, meaning the supply:demand ratio is tipped further into the employers favor, and more downward pressure is put on wages. 

So it's more complicated than it looks on the surface. Be careful what you wish for.



Corky said:


> While that is true it is no different then nursing and there wages are not so disproportionately low.



I'm not sure where the myth that "nurses don't volunteer" got started. I've volunteered more as a nurse than I have as a paramedic. Many nurses I know volunteer regularly. 

And I've never heard a nurse blame their low wages on the fact that another nurse volunteers at the shelter or crisis pregnancy center or summer camp a few hours a week.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jun 25, 2013)

Halothane said:


> And I've never heard a nurse blame their low wages on the fact that another nurse volunteers at the shelter or crisis pregnancy center or summer camp a few hours a week.


Oh, so you volunteer in the hospital doing the same job as your paid comrades in the same department? If you volunteer with your full scope of practice in a level 1 trauma center doing the same work as the paid RN's, only for free, your argument holds some validity. I don't think hanging out at the soup kitchen counts in this case. Volunteer EMS folks are actually filling the same slots as the paid folks. Unlike nursing, there are not many roles for Paramedics and EMT's outside of pre-hospital transport.


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## Carlos Danger (Jun 25, 2013)

ExpatMedic0 said:


> The answer is simple ladies and gentlemen. Raise national education standards (to include mandatory degrees)



Unfortunately, the idea that increased education automatically equals increased pay is false. Increased education makes you more valuable only if it increases your productivity.

Ever wonder why someone with a master's degree working at Walmart or Mcdonald's makes the same as their co-workers with a GED? It's because your employer doesn't pay you for your education, they pay you for your productivity. 

So, if your increased education means you can be more productive for your employer, you will be more valuable to them, and they will pay your more. 

However, if your increased education doesn't enable you to do things that will allow your employer to bill at a higher rate, your employer will probably not pay you more. This is exactly why a paramedic's pay doesn't go way up when they finish their BS in physiology or nursing. 

This partly explains why EMS agencies like to be "paramedic level" and are willing to pay paramedics more than EMT's, even though the vast majority of transports can be safely handled by an EMT. It's because the company can bill at a higher rate for many transports, even if those transports could've been safely handled by a basic. Charge 50% more for many of the transports you do, yet pay your employee just a few dollars more per hour? Sure, increasing education from EMT to paramedic is a great deal for the employer. But ONLY because they can bill more.


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## Carlos Danger (Jun 25, 2013)

ExpatMedic0 said:


> Oh, so you volunteer in the hospital doing the same job as your paid comrades in the same department? If you volunteer with your full scope of practice in a level 1 trauma center doing the same work as the paid RN's, only for free, your argument holds some validity. I don't think hanging out at the soup kitchen counts in this case. Volunteer EMS folks are actually filling the same slots as the paid folks. *Unlike nursing, there are not many roles for Paramedics and EMT's outside of pre-hospital transport.*



So maybe THAT'S why paramedics don't make more?

That was by far the most minor of all the points I made in that post, anyway.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jun 25, 2013)

Halothane said:


> Unfortunately, the idea that increased education automatically equals increased pay is false.



I agree with you somewhat here. I posted this long ago somewhere in the thread and used teachers as an example. It may or may not increase pay, but I think it would eliminate a lot of volunteers and help push things forward professionally as a whole.


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## DrankTheKoolaid (Jun 25, 2013)

Not quite the same thing there halothane. Show me a nurse that volunteers to work ER shifts or icu shifts..... Not going to happen


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## Carlos Danger (Jun 25, 2013)

Corky said:


> Not quite the same thing there halothane. Show me a nurse that volunteers to work ER shifts or icu shifts..... Not going to happen



How isn't it the same thing? Nurses work a lot more places than just the ED or ICU.

Those jobs that the nurses are volunteering for would have to be paid positions, if someone weren't willing to do it for free. 

If that logic is sound when applied to paramedics, I don't see why it isn't sound when applied to nurses. 

Right?


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## DrankTheKoolaid (Jun 25, 2013)

True. But this is a discussion about emergency services not hospice and the like


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## RocketMedic (Jun 25, 2013)

Halothane said:


> Unfortunately, the idea that increased education automatically equals increased pay is false. Increased education makes you more valuable only if it increases your productivity.
> 
> Ever wonder why someone with a master's degree working at Walmart or Mcdonald's makes the same as their co-workers with a GED? It's because your employer doesn't pay you for your education, they pay you for your productivity.
> 
> ...



This makes a lot of sense- similar to how fire departments will go full-bore ISO despite a lack of real need to get lower insurance ratings?


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## EMTelite (Jun 30, 2013)

To those who are saying that working as an EMT is easier than working at McDonalds my only question to you is where in the hell do you work ?


I work in southern california my operation averages over 150,000 calls a year alone, this month alone it is over 100* every day, we have a majority of geriatric patients, lots of traumas, 1 trauma center in my local area, no STEMI centers for atleast 40 min.

Ive been nearly stabbed, ive fractured my nose, I've been punched, kicked, bitten, spit on thrown up on, pooped, peed on. And had to do it all while keeping  a good attitude.

Now please tell me how McDonalds work is harder


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jun 30, 2013)

EMTelite said:


> Now please tell me how McDonalds work is harder


Ya, as I said earlier in the thread, I worked at Mcdonalds when I was 16 in high school. It was my first "real" job, I have also worked as an EMT and a Paramedic. So I am in a position to comment on both.   I never had a gun pulled on me at Mccdonalds but I have in EMS. I have also been assaulted multiple times in EMS but never at McDonalds. I was not exposed to driving hazards, and my infectious disease exposure was probably limited. Mentally handicapped people worked beside me at Mccdonalds, and most of our employee's where either students or disabled people. There was no education required, majority of the employees did not hold a GED or high school diploma and received only "on the job training." I know standards for EMT are low, way to low... but many of the people suggesting Mcdonalds employees deserve higher wages than EMT's are simply trolls and trying to get a rise out of you. I would be very surprised if any of those people have walked a day in either a EMT or Mcdonalds employee's shoes.


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## abckidsmom (Jun 30, 2013)

ExpatMedic0 said:


> Ya, as I said earlier in the thread, I worked at Mcdonalds when I was 16 in high school. It was my first "real" job, I have also worked as an EMT and a Paramedic. So I am in a position to comment on both.   I never had a gun pulled on me at Mccdonalds but I have in EMS. I have also been assaulted multiple times in EMS but never at McDonalds. I was not exposed to driving hazards, and my infectious disease exposure was probably limited. Mentally handicapped people worked beside me at Mccdonalds, and most of our employee's where either students or disabled people. There was no education required, majority of the employees did not hold a GED or high school diploma and received only "on the job training." I know standards for EMT are low, way to low... but many of the people suggesting Mcdonalds employees deserve higher wages than EMT's are simply trolls and trying to get a rise out of you. I would be very surprised if any of those people have walked a day in either a EMT or Mcdonalds employee's shoes.



Now the cool at the Waffle House? He earns his money.


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## HotelCo (Jun 30, 2013)

abckidsmom said:


> Now the cool at the Waffle House? He earns his money.



Waffle House ain't no joke!


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jun 30, 2013)

HotelCo said:


> Waffle House ain't no joke!



Waffle House is a whole other story. Those people deserve a medal of valor.


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## v3nn3m (Jul 1, 2013)

17.50hr Suffolk county, on long island NY


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## v3nn3m (Jul 1, 2013)

10$ an hour seems crazy


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## neoclassicaljazz (Jul 2, 2013)

I didn't read all of these posts but it doesn't offend me that someone at mcdonald's would make more than me. Used to work there in highschool and it wasn't one bit rewarding. I haven't been an EMT long but I can tell you already that it is a million times more rewarding than wrapping mcdoubles. Another thing is that if you were at mcd's, you can maybe move up to a manager position there ...but big deal, right? 
I'm 22 and my local station paid for my EMT-B class, books, CPR cert, and paid for my national registry test etc.  Pretty sweet deal if you ask me. But anyway, if you are an EMT-B you can always move up to the paramedic level and then there are other opportunities you can pursue as well. I've heard of employers paying for medic classes too. I figure I'm young and this is a great stepping stone. I know plenty of kids my age that are in college, thousands of dollars in debt, no job, studying a major where they probably won't be able to get a job right out of college and might have to re-locate to get one. Being an EMT here, I can go out and get a job a half hr away from where I live, take the medic class and probably have it paid for by my employer or my volunteer service and then I'll be like...24 or 25...still young enough to go off to college and get a degree doing something else.....Point is, there are a lot more opportunities as an EMT.


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## Carlos Danger (Jul 3, 2013)

Again......our compensation is not based on how "hard" our job is. If it were, one of the highest paid occupations would be the landscapers who work outside in the south in the summer. 

Rather, we are paid based on _the value of our labor_.

If McDonald's pays their workers more than an ambulance service pays it's EMT's, it simply means that their workers are more productive and valuable, in the economic sense.


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