# Kevlar Vests Not Likely for Missouri Responders



## Jon (Jul 24, 2008)

*Kevlar Vests Not Likely for Missouri Responders*



> The death of a St. Louis firefighter who was ambushed during a fire call on Monday has local firefighters talking about how to defend themselves.
> KMBC's Jim Flink reported that Kevlar vests are not likely to be added to the fire uniform in Kansas City. At Local 42, which represents firefighters and Metropolitan Ambulance Services Trust workers citywide, officials said they have both practical and philosophical issues with having first responders wear bulletproof vests.
> In most emergency calls, there is protocol about how EMS and firefighters respond when danger is present.
> "Fire or EMS standby, usually a half a block or a block away," said Louie Wright of Local 42.


 <SNIP>

http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?id=7960&siteSection=1​


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## karaya (Jul 24, 2008)

Point of clarification, the firefighter / paramedic was with Maplewood Fire Department and not St. Louis Fire.

I do think KC is making the proper decision not to Kevlar their firefighters and paramedics and wait until the scene is secure. Anything that requires scene intervention with known hostility should be left for the tactical medics.


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## reaper (Jul 24, 2008)

This scene did not warrant staging. It was a structure fire, no reason for worry. 

Staging is still no reason not to wear protection, if you think it is needed.

What is the union worried about?


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## colafdp (Jul 24, 2008)

I agree. no matter what the call, things can go downhill. Who's saying that the next call you get dispatched to, for chest pain, could actually be a person just waiting in a house with a gun? No one's disputing the fact that at hostile\potentially hostile scenes, we stage. But what about those scenes where there's no reason to stage?

unless you want the police to accompany you on every call....


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## mikeylikesit (Jul 24, 2008)

i think that they should have vests. one can argue that in this line of work that since we are only there to help there should be no problems. as we can see in the news as of lately this is no longer the case. If the vest will not be issued then i advise the personnel out in that region to start self supplying and trying to work out a deal with local companies for a discounted price.


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## Airwaygoddess (Jul 24, 2008)

*Vests, a sign of the times.....*

I keep hearing of more and more services going towards these type of vests.  I figure if they are providing these for you it must be a good thing.  You have to protect yourself to be able to care for others.   -_-


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## K9kazoo (Jul 24, 2008)

Any idea what type of weapon was used?  Any idea where the FF?Medic was struck?

If it was a long gun... a vest is pointless unless your wearing NIJ LvIII with ceramic plates...

I will continue to wear mine whenever I leave the station... weather it's a call or to the local Timmy's for coffee...

B.


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## KEVD18 (Jul 24, 2008)

helmet
nomex hood
mask
scba
turnout jacket
turnout pants
boots
uniform shirt
undershirt
unipants
underpants
socks

i cant imagine wearing a vest under all that. im familiar with how hot and uncomfortable with just the unifrom and vest. add bunkers to that...boy howdy!

whats more appaling than the town not providing vests is that people are shooting at firemen.


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## K9kazoo (Jul 25, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> helmet
> nomex hood
> mask
> scba
> ...



Yeah I don't envy a FF wearing a vest... especially in some of the climates out there... as a Medic I think it's a now brainer.

IMHO

B.


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## Jango (Jul 25, 2008)

Vests are a great idea.....against someone you can see.  WTF are you going to do about the person with a high powered rifle and scope?  I have worked on pts in a tactical/war environment wearing a vest with heavy armor plates and a helmet.....one well placed shot and it does not matter what you are wearing.  Vests are a BAD idea.  Medics start wearing vests and pts will start fearing us.  Face it, you are at a greater risk of getting killed when you start driving down the road either on your way to a call or going back to quarters....whats to stop a drunk driver from hitting you and killing you?  Right....that bullet proof vest or maybe you would feel safer wearing the HANS device?

Thats my two cents....do with it as you wish....


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## reaper (Jul 25, 2008)

Jango said:


> Vests are a BAD idea.  Medics start wearing vests and pts will start fearing us.




WHAT? Do you honestly believe this?

I know I run and hide from the big bad person wearing the vest.

My job is to go home in one piece. If I scare the 1 in 100,000 person that has a phobia of vests, then that is just too bad!:sad:


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## Jango (Jul 25, 2008)

Think rationally about this....a vest will not protect you.  Say your shooter is a bad shot....hits your O2 tank.....    Clearly many of you are not thinking rationally.  Will a vest protect you from someone wielding a knife?  Or shooting you in the leg, face, neck.  That storm trooper armor from George Lucas is looking better by the moment....  Seriously, think this through like a rational person....you wearing a vest or carrying a weapon will not protect you from everything.   Vest will encumber the wearer, and when that happens....people will quit wearing them.


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## reaper (Jul 25, 2008)

Jango said:


> Think rationally about this....a vest will not protect you.
> So all those cops in the world are wasting thier time and money by wearing one?
> 
> Say your shooter is a bad shot....hits your O2 tank.....
> ...



So you don't wear a vest or carry a weapon, over there?
:unsure:


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## Jango (Jul 25, 2008)

reaper said:


> So you don't wear a vest or carry a weapon, over there?
> :unsure:



Sure, I do.  But then no one gives a damn about spinal immobilization, and first responders can push fluids.  It's a different world.  And even the best vest and vehicle armor can't always protect you from getting your leg blown off, or becoming entrapped and burning to death.  I have seen armor not stop high powered rounds or suicide bombers...armor is nice, but not a guarantee you will live. 

Like I said, you are at a greater risk from everyday traffic on the road.   More responders die each year driving to the scene than by any other way.


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## reaper (Jul 25, 2008)

Jango said:


> Sure, I do.  But then no one gives a damn about spinal immobilization, and first responders can push fluids.  It's a different world.  And even the best vest and vehicle armor can't always protect you from getting your leg blown off, or becoming entrapped and burning to death.  I have seen armor not stop high powered rounds or suicide bombers...armor is nice, but not a guarantee you will live.
> 
> Like I said, you are at a greater risk from everyday traffic on the road.   More responders die each year driving to the scene than by any other way.



I can't figure out how any of that has any thing to do with wearing a vest?

If you want to think like that, then we should stop wearing seat belts, stop using airbags, stop waiting for scenes to be clear. Come on, anything can kill you at any time. But, it is just plain stupid, not to take the precautions that can help prevent it.


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## Jango (Jul 25, 2008)

I quit.....you just don't get it and will not get it.....a vest is not a force field.  Wear a vest.....I do not care, maybe it will help you sleep better at night.  As for this thread....don't expect a reply from me, I am through wasting my time on this.


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## reaper (Jul 25, 2008)

No problem!

Oh, don't forget to strap one on, when you go out.


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## karaya (Jul 27, 2008)

I just met with some folks who were on the scene of this tragedy.  A vest wouldn't have helped this young man.  He was shot in the head thru his helmet with a long rifle.


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## Jon (Jul 28, 2008)

Jango said:


> ...armor is nice, but not a guarantee you will live...



I don't think anyone's questioning that. Flexible body armor is bullet-resistant, at least for most standard pistol calibers. It won't stop rifle bullets (a LEO in Philly was murdered last month by a scumbag with a rifle). Nor will it stop shotgun or pistol shots to the head (2 more Philly LEO's murdered in the last 2 years).

Do cops still get killed? Yes. But you also don't see big deals made out of the times where the vests stop the bullets... the media only makes a REALLY big deal when the LEO is "gunned down in the line of duty".


As for "big bad vests" EMS providers in Canada and the UK are wearing outer vests with reflective tape and logos on them to mark them as a EMS provider. These vests are stab and/or bullet reisistant. Additionally, these vests allow them to carry on the vest a lot of the stuff we keep on our belts and thigh pockets.
They have become the standard uniform... so they don't look different. And the vest is functional, so it isn't just in the way.

LEO's and others have been wearing under-the-shirt vests for years. Vests these days aren't noticeable unless you are really looking for them... aside from making the wearer seem a little "thicker" around the middle... you wear the same uniform that you do now, so I don't see any issue.


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