# EMT Education



## Ridryder911 (Jun 17, 2008)

After reading several posts, I am questioning what one thought of or attitude was on their EMT training.

One does not have to post if they do not want to... 

R/r 911


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## fma08 (Jun 17, 2008)

It was enough to let me know that i needed paramedic school to really learn something. it seemed like we focused on about 3 or 4 illnesses and the rest kinda touched on briefly... sad in a lot of ways... but cant fit it all in 120 hours i guess..


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## Onceamedic (Jun 17, 2008)

I didn't answer the poll Rid, because I truly didn't see the option I wanted.  I found EMT-B to be extremely frustrating.  I felt like a round peg being hammered into a square hole.  I see now that the goal was training - learning to do some very specific things in a very specific manner - without being taught the "why" in a way that made sense to me.  I was totally unnerved at the end of the course with the idea that I was somehow equipped to do useful work in an ambulance.  Of course I wasn't.  There was very little time in the course to truly learn anything.  I thought it was me - that I was too dumb or somehow not right for the field.  I started the course with the intention that I was going to be a paramedic and for me, it was the hoop I jumped through because that's what I had to do to get to medic school.  When I got to paramedic school, my instructor told us to forget all that EMT "crap" - that this was a whole different ball game.  Seems pretty dumb to me now to make us go through basic.  
Good subject.  Thanks for asking for our opinions.


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## katgrl2003 (Jun 17, 2008)

I actually did study, studied my arse off actually.  I took what the book and our teacher taught us and went more in depth, did studying on my own.  Looking back, I realize now I didn't need this to pass the class.  I could have passed without even buying the book.  Do I regret doing it?  Heck no.  All it did was make me want to go on to medic school.  I hated the watered down feeling I was getting in class.  Heck, I already knew most of this stuff by age 9 by reading my mom's nursing school books (something my dad was NOT pleased about).  

So for my vote?  Class was way easier than I thought, and I am just using it as a stepping stone for later things to come.

-Kat


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## LucidResq (Jun 17, 2008)

Going in to it I expected the content to be very shallow and inadequate and after completing the course I can say with confidence that it indeed was. I didn't study more than 1-2 hours total throughout the entire course (and didn't need to), but then again due to previous courses I've taken and my background in SAR I came into it with a decent knowledge base of anatomy and phys, legal/ethical concepts, first aid, patient packaging, etc etc. 

I do not regret taking the course however. My clinical rotations were excellent and my preceptors allowed me to do 99% of the patient care. If there is one thing I took out of this class... it's that I started learning how to talk to patients which is an often overlooked skill. 

I also took advantage of being in close proximity to experienced EMTs, medics, nurses and doctors by asking tons of questions and asking for advice.
Since I had mastered much of the basics, I tried to delve deeper into the topics. Yeah, the class taught me about shock and bleeding, but it was a very very basic explanation so I whipped out my A&P texts and studied stuff like hemodynamics, hemostasis, MAP, etc. 

The EMT course consistently fails to teach the "whys" of the diseases, assessments, and procedures of EMS... which is really important stuff to know if you're ever going to gain critical thinking skills in the field. Yes, they will tell you the symptoms of shock... but do they ever explain why those symptoms occur in detail? Not so much.


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## Sapphyre (Jun 17, 2008)

Oy Vey.

Less than halfway through class, it became apparent that we will come out with little or no knowledge.  I went in with an expired ARC Emergency Response card, so, that may have been part of it.  Towards the end, there were some of us that declared we now know just enough to know we don't know nearly enough.  It's really scary thinking some of the people could be solely responsible for patient care soon.

I actually learned the most from the clinical hours (surprisingly, after reading here, the clinical hours were nearly half the classroom hours)


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## BossyCow (Jun 17, 2008)

My EMT class was a pencil whipping, get them on the street formality. Fortunately for me, I took it the extra mile myself simply because I felt I needed to know more, and I had a 24/7 on call Paramedic in the house, who was more than willing to give me more information than I asked for on every question. 

I continually run into the comment. "I don't feel comfortable in my skills/knowledge" from new EMTs. Our department has a mentoring program that we implement until we feel an EMT is adequately prepared. In the meantime, I take as many classes as I can afford or that I have time for, and pass that information on to the EMTs I am responsible for. We debrief on every call and include the MPDs run review comments.


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## mikeylikesit (Jun 17, 2008)

My basic class was easy except for some of the EMT history and radio procedure portions that were just sleepers. I learned half about medicine and vitals and the rest about how to ride on an ambo, radio and look out for some common injuries. i have seen these 2 week accelerated classes and think to myself...damn that’s easy and quick! I realize that you don’t have to know how the body works at all just primarily what you could do if it looks like: this that, or that. Assist this take these measurements down that we have machines do anymore. Even Medic school was a joke if it wasn’t so much info in a short amount of time!


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## JPINFV (Jun 17, 2008)

I took the course the begining of my second year of college (intro bio, lower division writing, chem. Calc. No anatomy, physiology, biochem yet). I found myself not paying attention at all to the lectures half the time and instead just flipping through the book. I found the vast majority of the sections to be either very repititve or very common sense orientated (owing, in part, to my training as a boy scout). As such, I was pretty disappointed with the level of material that was expected of us.


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## Ops Paramedic (Jun 17, 2008)

From the option i choose, i would appear that i'm not one of the lucky ones who "hardly had to open a book/ what a joke", as the results point to those guys in the majority.  Or maybe it was just a really worthwile course...


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## Ridryder911 (Jun 17, 2008)

Ops Paramedic said:


> From the option i choose, i would appear that i'm not one of the lucky ones who "hardly had to open a book/ what a joke", as the results point to those guys in the majority.  Or maybe it was just a really worthwile course...



Maybe your class was taught differently than those in the U.S., as I have seen majority of those outside the U.S ... something I believe we should look at and study. 

R/r 911


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## jazminestar (Jun 18, 2008)

I had an EXCELLENT class, our teacher was an ER nurse for 30+ years and all of our t.a's were either emts or medics.....but for me it was a bit easier only because i had already taken a human anatomy class and a pathology class. and had a ton of classes because i'm also a licensed massage therapist, so i think i had a better understanding of the human body..........so yeah that's it   i did have a good expierence and learned from some great people


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## Ridryder911 (Jun 20, 2008)

Bump.. surely we have more than 25 people that view here! You do not have to comment to vote.. be honest!

Thanks, 

R/r 911


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## Capt.Hook (Jun 20, 2008)

I dunno.  I had been a FR with 2 refreshers going into EMT class, so much of the info wasn't new by any means.  Not at all to say I was 100% proficient in all skills, but I felt darn confident.  

I was certainly surprised at how glossed over the curriculum was.  It was obvious one wouldn't be a good EMT straight from this class without more training.

Towards the final classes it was also obvious we were "learning to the test" which really bothers me, mainly because I at least was familiar with what a call consisted of and how ems calls are handled.  Honestly I don't feel any more trained as an EMT than a First Responder.  It's amazing how much I didn't learn.

In short, I don't feel my EMT class prepared me or my classmates with as much as it should have


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## Guardian (Jun 21, 2008)

I’m not sure what you’re hoping to accomplish.  I would rate my class as moderately hard when I took it at 16 years old.  If I took the same class today, I would probably fall asleep from boredom in class.  People’s perspectives change over time and are based on previous experiences.

All things equal, I think the class is pretty darn easy, and it should be that way.


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## Ridryder911 (Jun 21, 2008)

Guardian said:


> I’m not sure what you’re hoping to accomplish.  I would rate my class as moderately hard when I took it at 16 years old.  If I took the same class today, I would probably fall asleep from boredom in class.  People’s perspectives change over time and are based on previous experiences.
> 
> All things equal, I think the class is pretty darn easy, and it should be that way.



Nothing to accomplish, but rather to find out the general opinion. We read on how a EMT what care should be or not be performed, then at the same time how they were not prepared for real life. As well, we continue to read how easy, or how hard/difficult the course was. 

Now, I ask why what reasons it should it be so easy, if these persons are responsible for emergency care of patients? Obviously, those that perform care at that level has left opposite opinions...

R/r 911


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## Outbac1 (Jun 22, 2008)

Since my "basic" class was 1200 hours it is hardly a fair comparison. So I won't vote in the poll. Having said that I had to work hard on my course. Some things came easy and others didn't.


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## Guardian (Jun 23, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> Now, I ask why what reasons it should it be so easy, if these persons are responsible for emergency care of patients? Obviously, those that perform care at that level has left opposite opinions...
> 
> R/r 911



One reason it shouldn't be rocket science is because we should balance the number of emts vs the difficulty of the curriculum.  Currently, I think we are doing a pretty good job of that.  The advantage of emt-basic is that it graduates so many people.  It's a good thing having a large number of emts all over the place to assist paramedics and other health care providers when needed.  And we are only going to need more of them as we are forced to handle more and more none emergencies.  The emt is absolutely vital to our system of ems.  I think your point is only valid in a situation where no ALS service is available and there were a bunch of emts running around pawning themselves off as the "medics" (whatever that is).  Unfortunately, that is the case in many areas.  I think this is the real problem that needs addressing.  But regardless, it's almost as if you are trying to make the emt-b more that it was ever designed to be.


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## Guardian (Jun 23, 2008)

Outbac1 said:


> Since my "basic" class was 1200 hours it is hardly a fair comparison. So I won't vote in the poll. Having said that I had to work hard on my course. Some things came easy and others didn't.



yes, it's a totally different system up there.  Some advantages and some disadvantages.


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## Onceamedic (Jun 23, 2008)

Guardian said:


> But regardless, it's almost as if you are trying to make the emt-b more that it was ever designed to be.



I run with a service with a lot of EMTs and I appreciate their presence a great deal.  I must take exception to this statement tho - when the EMT-B program was first implemented, it held great promise for the future of our profession.  The program has been progressively diluted, with less and less hours allocated.  Rather than trying to make the emt-b more, I think most of us would like it to return to where it was originally going - before the requirements of EMT-B were "dumbed down" to make it attractive to vollies.


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## mikeylikesit (Jun 23, 2008)

Rid i have a feeling that you had a hand in this article for some reason.

http://www.fieldmedics.com/articles/Jems_Article.htm


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## Guardian (Jun 23, 2008)

Kaisu said:


> I run with a service with a lot of EMTs and I appreciate their presence a great deal.  I must take exception to this statement tho - when the EMT-B program was first implemented, it held great promise for the future of our profession.  The program has been progressively diluted, with less and less hours allocated.  Rather than trying to make the emt-b more, I think most of us would like it to return to where it was originally going - before the requirements of EMT-B were "dumbed down" to make it attractive to vollies.




I've looked at the old AAOS "emt - ambulance" textbooks and they're not that much different than the "emt - basic" textbooks of today.  True, the textbooks of today are a little more "dumbed down," but is this a bad thing?  The old way was to give people a little more of a foundation so that their transition to ALS wasn't as hard.  This idea sounds good on paper, but the truth is people don't need any foundation to go on to ALS.  People also don't need an apprenticeship in BLS.  The human mind is smart enough to learn BLS and ALS care together (paramedic care) without any roadblocks or wasted time in between.  The real need was and is for large amounts of people who have training in emergency first aid and the use of BLS ambulance equipment in providing that first aid.  That’s all the old EMT-As could do anyway.  They might have had a little more knowledge than the emt-basics of today, but it was pointless.  I read through the emt-basic textbooks and talk/work with current emt-basics.  They know enough to function in a BLS role, and that's all we should ask them to do.  If a person wants to learn more, they are free to take ALS paramedic classes. 

A problem does arise when emt-basics start taking on responsibilities out of their scope of practice.  But that's not an education issue; it's a leadership issue.  And that's really another topic all together.


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## Onceamedic (Jun 23, 2008)

It is a problem because what was good enough 20 - 30 years ago is not good enough today.  No other endeavor or profession would claim that "hey - its about the same as it was back 30 years ago"  and find that acceptable.  The whole idea was a progression; a development of skills and education to deliver better care to all the people in the US, not just the ones lucky enough to afford paramedic care.  
There are people dying and/or suffering unneccessary morbidities because advanced education requirements for entry into the profession are not implemented.  The fact that most of the public doesn't know the difference between BLS and ALS makes improvement even more difficult to attain.  

It is a leadership problem, but the problem is that many people in a position to make the necessary changes refuse to accept that they are required or even desireable.  It's enough to make me weep.


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## daedalus (Jun 23, 2008)

I was crushed after the course. I expected to be a confident provider of emergency medicine.


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## Ridryder911 (Jun 23, 2008)

mikeylikesit said:


> Rid i have a feeling that you had a hand in this article for some reason.
> 
> http://www.fieldmedics.com/articles/Jems_Article.htm



Yes...


The problem is simple. When DOT now commonly known as NHTSA first introduced EMT curriculum and the EMT Paramedic curriculum as well, majority of the personnel was already employed in EMS. For example for me to be in my Paramedic course, I had already had to be employed as one.. yeah, confusing as heck but that was the pretty norm. Most EMT courses were filled with ambulance jocks, who went to courses while on duty so it was more a OJT and re-enforced issue rather than teach from the ground level up. 

This is where we dropped the ball and continue to. For some reason, we feel we must rather subject our patients to a lesser trained individual than to those that may not have experienced. Even here it has been posted and re-posted of how they rather have a experienced non-educated EMT than a well knowledgeable Paramedic. Although "that not be in the best interest for the patient"... Wow!

It was expected for one to..... "know the business before they went into the business"...
It was to be assumed that one know the routine basics of patient movement, lifting, oxygen administration, etc.. before one even entered the class. Again, the course development was based upon improving the ambulance attendants job. 

Unfortunately, we never changed that mentality. Now most assume one cannot perform this job without going through stages. Again, a fallacy. EMT training and even performances has very LITTLE common with being a Paramedic. Yes, they both usually arrive in a ambulance, but that is about it. Assumption being made that one would enter and s-o-m-eday they would complete a Paramedic level program and by that time the community would be prepared for ALS and support it. Yes, a nice dream.. unfortunately again, we just placed a band-aid on an arterial bleed situation...along the way making excuses developing titles to... "make do until we can afford the real thing"..only that day may never come.. but; we almost have the real thing!.. 

Most in EMS bought into that gimmick. Instructors that teethed upon the philosophy of that, as well most themselves probably never completed any formal education or "going all the way through" the Paramedic program have installed the complacent theory. The old .. "well it is better than nothing".. when in reality, if there was not a choice or option then we would have ALS throughout the country.  

Can we blame the public? Really? Should it not be our responsibility to ensure the best care will delivered by our profession? Do we demand the public to screen who can advertise as a Cardiologist or even an RN or do we rely upon their profession to ensure that quality, licensed, and knowledgeable physicians & nurses are provided... no excuses allowed. No bean dinners to keep the nursing staff. I do believe sometimes that we are our worst enemies by being talked into how we are not really needed and others can and could do a better job. Even more irritating that this is usually from those that are not even qualified to make such a decision. Just read the posts... 

Time to clean the slate. Start at the beginning. Hire only teachers that are really educators not just instructors. Stop promoting mediocre is okay.. *it's not!* That excellence and excelling within the profession should be the "normal standard" and anything is less than acceptable. This profession is that .. a profession. Although it may be used as a springboard, but it should be considered a profession first and utmost. 

Patient care is patient care. No ALS or BLS divisions. You will be medically educated (yeah, one has to know some of that Dr. stuff) and will be expected to realize that this profession will always require one to be top notch and anything else is failure. Remove the technician phrase as they are truly performing a diagnostic hypothesis and perform interventional therapy. Paramedic not EMT-P

Those that do not want to pursue it as a medical profession but job or situation requires some emergency care should be at the technician level (EMT). Those would still be required to be up to date on basic care, but since most of the care is at a level where changes rarely occur, certification could be extended but as well limited. Course level would focus upon improvising rather than transporting. Making do with limited resources until Paramedic intervention or to assist in the care with Paramedic care. 

This would improve relations knowing each other limitations, as well as increasing enrollment for those that have no desire to go in depth. Those that do would not have to jump through stages because they want to go more in-depth. Two separate professions and ideologies with the same goals. 

R/r 911


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## Guardian (Jun 24, 2008)

Kaisu said:


> The whole idea was a progression; a development of skills and education to deliver better care to all the people in the US, not just the ones lucky enough to afford paramedic care.





So your suggestion is to give emt-basics a few more hours of training because not everyone is lucky enough to afford paramedical care?

My suggestion is to push for paramedic level care everywhere and not try and pawn off the emt-b as something it was never designed to be.  There is already an option in existence to increase emt-basic training, it's called emt - intermediate and paramedic.  By pushing for more emt-basic training, you are the one holding our profession back.  I seriously doubt going back to the emt-ambulance curriculum or even increasing it a little from there would decrease “unnecessary morbidities” as you insinuate.


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## Onceamedic (Jun 24, 2008)

Guardian said:


> So your suggestion is to give emt-basics a few more hours of training because not everyone is lucky enough to afford paramedical care?



god no - I didn't mean to give that impression at all.  I'm sure I didn't say it.  I think we need to abolish EMT-B and all vollie squads.  Amateurs are not needed.  

Paramedic should be the entry level into the profession and it should be an associate degree - two year minimum.  Advancements after that for critical care, cct, etc.


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## mikeylikesit (Jun 24, 2008)

Kaisu said:


> god no - I didn't mean to give that impression at all. I'm sure I didn't say it. I think we need to abolish EMT-B and all vollie squads. Amateurs are not needed.
> 
> Paramedic should be the entry level into the profession and it should be an associate degree - two year minimum. Advancements after that for critical care, cct, etc.


and then since all medics require a ton of clinicals and ride alongs you will have a lot more experience going into the field than before.


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## Capt.Hook (Jun 25, 2008)

god no - I didn't mean to give that impression at all. I'm sure I didn't say it. I think we need to abolish EMT-B and all vollie squads. Amateurs are not needed. 

Paramedic should be the entry level into the profession and it should be an associate degree - two year minimum. Advancements after that for critical care, cct, etc. 


And you're to be the one that will present this "new" scenario to townships and towns/cities that this is "the way" ?  Good luck.  You can start here.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for further education and advance patient care, but it is all too easy for ANYONE to say such words.  

Again, ALS is the way, in my opinion.  This is coming from a basic trained First Responder.  I'm pretty low in the pole, I realize, but my feelings are strong in that our rural, low budget America has to have something.  I know there are long term solutions, but it's just plain not feasible to propose full time ALS for many, many folks in remote areas.  At least not in the near now.

Wishful thinking, at best, in my opinion.  Til then, we do what we need to do.  Provide whatever care our public allows and move on.


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## crash_cart (Jun 26, 2008)

It was fairly difficult, but I made it through by studying the books harder and through a lot of extra time of practicing on skills.  When I first started my course, I thought it would be a cakewalk, and then I got pasted on a few tests that got into the national registry type of questions.  Being in education as opposed to medicine, it was quite a switch in regards to how to study and how to think through some of the questions.  Physically, I dropped 30 pounds and got in better shape.  I did that after the instructor had us raise and lower the stretcher repeatedly.  That drill with fellow students strapped on, soundly convinced me that I had to get better in *all *respects.  I also put in a lot of time, usually about an hour and a half after each class working with the equipment.  A lot of the students already were firefighters and were familiar with them-I was like the guy off of the street, I had no clue at all.  My training adequately prepared me for being an EMT and by no means, was it a joke or a walk through the park.  We had some good students and the instructor knew her stuff.


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## upstateemt (Jul 14, 2008)

I guess it depends what level you are asking about.  I found EMT-B to be fairly easy but reading and studying were definately a must.   

Intermediate was a real work out, I studied non-stop and really sweated the class.  My Critical Care was "studying required" but not nearly as scarey as the intermediate, maybe that was because much information was repeated between Intermediate and Critical Care.    My expectation would have been that the courses were progressively harder but I found that not to be the case. 

I also have found, at all levels, that the amount of time and effort you put into the class is your choice.  You can breeze through and come out with just enough to pass the test or you can spend time and effort and pass the test AND KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING!!!!


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