# Gold Cross Ambulance Strike



## Highlander

On strike. what are your thoughts? 

heres the storys link.
http://www.ems1.com/ems-management/...-medics-continue-strike-against-ambulance-co/


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## DesertMedic66

The area is still being covered by other companies (my company included). Out there they do need things to change. A/C not working in units and stations, no raises in 6+ years, no benefits (or very bad ones), and minimum wage pay.


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## terrible one

$9/hr for paramedics, not surprised when you have an area as saturated as SoCal with providers. These days people are willing to work for next to nothing in hopes of getting a FD job. No thanks.


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## Highlander

I heard about that pay rate. Emts near me make about the same or even slightly more.


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## DesertMedic66

Now Redlands AMR is talking about going on strike. Last I heard EMTs were trying to push for $15 an hour.


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## Highlander

Well I would love 15$ p/h as an EMT.


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## xrsm002

I'd love more than 9/hr and an intermediate.


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## Highlander

Emts around here generally make 9-10$ p/h , not sure about medics. I do know when rural/metro had the strike over In new york for like a day, we where being sent over to work that week.


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## MonkeySquasher

^^^   Yup, and were quickly sent home.  

I -am- happy that ended quickly, there's no way that few providers could cover this area.


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## aquabear

Is Gold Cross still on strike?


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## DesertMedic66

aquabear said:


> Is Gold Cross still on strike?



We still have units covering them so I'm assuming yes.


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## Aprz

Seems like all the strikes try to pull the safety card. County Ambulance in Santa Clara County might go on strike over "safety" too. :\

Source: http://www.mercurynews.com/politics...ntys-troubled-private-ambulance-provider-pays


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## m0nster986

I have to applaud the people who were on strike for creating a 'voice' for fellow EMTs and medics. The response provided by the operations manager in the video was very unprofessional; whom placed accusations and reluctance to resolve issues his employees were facing. I do not believe the general public recognize how poor most of our working conditions are and if we continue to allow for-profit companies to neglect their employees, we will inhibit EMS to professionalize.  It is about time people stepped up to the plate!


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## BLZ54

This strike is becoming more ridiculous as it keeps going on. If any of you have seen the comments on social media sites by the union president, throwing around the F-word like crazy toward company representatives, you'll understand that things are getting out of hand. These workers have mouths to feed and the union president is manipulating them into thinking they're fighting for some higher cause when it's really the well-being of the community that they should be focusing on. 

When those who are on strike finally have to resort to work are threatened and slandered by their former peers, what is the real purpose of this strike anyway? It's not uncommon for some medics to be making $60-70k per year with a base pay rate in the $10 range and yet they have the nerve to demand more money. Many people seem to forget how quickly overtime multipliers and chart completion bonuses add up in this industry. Mind you, this for individuals with a 1 year degree, not even an associates degree. 

In the end, it's important to understand all of the facts and circumstances that are not being mentioned before listening to the mindless banter of those who are on strike and have no regard for serving their community as they vowed to do.


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## terrible one

What's the base pay for FD and PD in the area? I imagine its higher than $9/10hr. Do those professions require a 2 or 4 year degree?


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## RocketMedic

BLZ54 said:


> This strike is becoming more ridiculous as it keeps going on. If any of you have seen the comments on social media sites by the union president, throwing around the F-word like crazy toward company representatives, you'll understand that things are getting out of hand. These workers have mouths to feed and the union president is manipulating them into thinking they're fighting for some higher cause when it's really the well-being of the community that they should be focusing on.
> 
> When those who are on strike finally have to resort to work are threatened and slandered by their former peers, what is the real purpose of this strike anyway? It's not uncommon for some medics to be making $60-70k per year with a base pay rate in the $10 range and yet they have the nerve to demand more money. Many people seem to forget how quickly overtime multipliers and chart completion bonuses add up in this industry. Mind you, this for individuals with a 1 year degree, not even an associates degree.
> 
> In the end, it's important to understand all of the facts and circumstances that are not being mentioned before listening to the mindless banter of those who are on strike and have no regard for serving their community as they vowed to do.



Id strike or move too if I made my lavish pay on 96 hour weeks in trucks with no A/C and an employer stupid enough to publicly say "that's Ford's problem, not ours."


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## Wheel

Rocketmedic40 said:


> Id strike or move too if I made my lavish pay on 96 hour weeks in trucks with no A/C and an employer stupid enough to publicly say "that's Ford's problem, not ours."



Not to mention cost of living. It's at least twice what it is in my area, and the area I'm moving, but they make the same or less than EMTs and medics in those areas.


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## exodus

Rocketmedic40 said:


> Id strike or move too if I made my lavish pay on 96 hour weeks in trucks with no A/C and an employer stupid enough to publicly say "that's Ford's problem, not ours."



Not to mention, the coverings units tires that just happened to become slashed...


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## DesertMedic66

exodus said:


> Not to mention, the coverings units tires that just happened to become slashed...



Well that's not good..


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## CALEMT

DesertEMT66 said:


> Well that's not good..



Ive heard its much worse than that... rumor has it that the strikers are interfering with the 911 calls and are inhibiting the ambulance crews of doing their jobs while on scene of those calls. Rumors of course... I don't know if there is any hint of truth in that.


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## exodus

CALEMT said:


> Ive heard its much worse than that... rumor has it that the strikers are interfering with the 911 calls and are inhibiting the ambulance crews of doing their jobs while on scene of those calls. Rumors of course... I don't know if there is any hint of truth in that.



Do they not understand that every call they don't run, but we do, their company still gets in trouble for and fined...  They're acting like children if these rumors are true.


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## Handsome Robb

BLZ54 said:


> This strike is becoming more ridiculous as it keeps going on. If any of you have seen the comments on social media sites by the union president, throwing around the F-word like crazy toward company representatives, you'll understand that things are getting out of hand. These workers have mouths to feed and the union president is manipulating them into thinking they're fighting for some higher cause when it's really the well-being of the community that they should be focusing on.
> 
> When those who are on strike finally have to resort to work are threatened and slandered by their former peers, what is the real purpose of this strike anyway? It's not uncommon for some medics to be making $60-70k per year with a base pay rate in the $10 range and yet they have the nerve to demand more money. Many people seem to forget how quickly overtime multipliers and chart completion bonuses add up in this industry. Mind you, this for individuals with a 1 year degree, not even an associates degree.
> 
> In the end, it's important to understand all of the facts and circumstances that are not being mentioned before listening to the mindless banter of those who are on strike and have no regard for serving their community as they vowed to do.



How do you figure 60-70k/year at 10/hour? 

I make 16.35/hr (soon to be more with a company wide raise) and my base salary is in the 42k range before taxes.


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## DesertMedic66

Robb said:


> How do you figure 60-70k/year at 10/hour?
> 
> I make 16.35/hr (soon to be more with a company wide raise) and my base salary is in the 42k range before taxes.



I'm assuming he/she is counting in picking up extra shifts.


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## MMiz

exodus said:


> Do they not understand that every call they don't run, but we do, their company still gets in trouble for and fined...  They're acting like children if these rumors are true.


I don't understand why you aren't troubled by the fact that you and your company is undermining their efforts to gain safe equipment, fair compensation, and career stability.

I don't care if it's EMS, there is something to be said about advancing the profession by not crossing a picket line.


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## DesertMedic66

MMiz said:


> I don't understand why you aren't troubled by the fact that you and your company is undermining their efforts to gain safe equipment, fair compensation, and career stability.
> 
> I don't care if it's EMS, there is something to be said about advancing the profession by not crossing a picket line.



So what just let their citizens suffer and not have EMS because they are on strike?

A 911 service always needs to be staffed to handle calls. If PD goes on strike and no one wants to or is allowed to "cross the line" does that mean we should go on looting sprees and start shooting people because there is no PD?


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## PotatoMedic

There is also something about not leaving a community without proper emergency care. (Including transport to a hospital.)


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## MMiz

DesertEMT66 said:


> So what just let their citizens suffer and not have EMS because they are on strike?
> 
> A 911 service always needs to be staffed to handle calls. If PD goes on strike and no one wants to or is allowed to "cross the line" does that mean we should go on looting sprees and start shooting people because there is no PD?


That's part of the problem with EMS.  We're so blinded by doing the right thing at any cost, that we're willing to take abysmal pay, horrible working conditions, and even worse job security in the spirit of being a lifesaver.

Police, fire fighters and EMS threaten to go on strike frequently and _sometimes actually _strike.  I'm sure you understand the sense or urgency negotiators would feel should their community not have access to EMS.  I can guarantee you that a solution would be found promptly.

This isn't your battle to fight, but you're hurting your brethren at Gold Cross Ambulance when you cross the picket line to perform a service that should be provided by Gold Ambulance employees.


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## PotatoMedic

I can't think of a single fire or police department in my area that is allowed to strike.  My understanding is that if they do strike it is instant termination.


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## DesertMedic66

MMiz said:


> That's part of the problem with EMS.  We're so blinded by doing the right thing at any cost, that we're willing to take abysmal pay, horrible working conditions, and even worse job security in the spirit of being a lifesaver.
> 
> Police, fire fighters and EMS threaten to go on strike frequently and _sometimes actually _strike.  I'm sure you understand the sense or urgency negotiators would feel should their community not have access to EMS.  I can guarantee you that a solution would be found promptly.
> 
> This isn't your battle to fight, but you're hurting your brethren at Gold Cross Ambulance when you cross the picket line to perform a service that should be provided by Gold Ambulance employees.



Yes it is a service that should be provided by GoldCross ambulance employees. However their employees are refusing to do that service. Their negotiations aren't going well at all (from what I've been hearing). So until their employees are willing to preform that service (once they make an agreement) their citizens are left without any form of EMS service. 

There is no guarantee on how long a strike will last, so the assumption of "if no service is provided at all, they will settle very quickly" can not be made. The company could not have any money to pay their employees any higher wages (other 911 services in that area have gone under).


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## MMiz

DesertEMT66 said:


> Yes it is a service that should be provided by GoldCross ambulance employees. However their employees are refusing to do that service. Their negotiations aren't going well at all (from what I've been hearing). So until their employees are willing to preform that service (once they make an agreement) their citizens are left without any form of EMS service.
> 
> There is no guarantee on how long a strike will last, so the assumption of "if no service is provided at all, they will settle very quickly" can not be made. The company could not have any money to pay their employees any higher wages (other 911 services in that area have gone under).


I don't understand who you are to make those determinations.  Their employees are refusing to work in dangerous rigs.  No one should have to work in a dangerous environment.

The rest of your arguments are all speculation.  We don't have first hand knowledge of their negotiations, we don't know how long a strike would last without scab workers, and no one on this board knows if they have enough money to pay for the raises in salary and benefits workers are asking for.

I'm not an expert in EMS, and I'm not an expert in much, but I recognize the value of organized workers demanding a better quality of life and safer equipment.  I recognize the value of a work action/strike, and how much scab workers can undermine their efforts.

I don't think labor unions serve many purposes today, but my conscience wouldn't allow me to actively undermine a group's efforts.


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## DesertMedic66

MMiz said:


> I don't understand who you are to make those determinations.  Their employees are refusing to work in dangerous rigs.  No one should have to work in a dangerous environment.
> 
> The rest of your arguments are all speculation.  We don't have first hand knowledge of their negotiations, we don't know how long a strike would last without scab workers, and no one on this board knows if they have enough money to pay for the raises in salary and benefits workers are asking for.
> 
> I'm not an expert in EMS, and I'm not an expert in much, but I recognize the value of organized workers demanding a better quality of life and safer equipment.  I recognize the value of a work action/strike, and how much scab workers can undermine their efforts.
> 
> I don't think labor unions serve many purposes today, but my conscience wouldn't allow me to actively undermine a group's efforts.



Since we don't know anything about what is actually going on then we don't know how long negotiations will last. So once again we are in the same situation. 

So what you would do is let the workers go on strike and not let any ambulance company (or companies) cover their area and put the citizens at risk?

They would call for mutual aid agreements to run calls. By not having our units already in their area it would take us 1-3 hours to respond to every one of their 911 calls.


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## MMiz

DesertEMT66 said:


> Since we don't know anything about what is actually going on then we don't know how long negotiations will last. So once again we are in the same situation.
> 
> So what you would do is let the workers go on strike and not let any ambulance company (or companies) cover their area and put the citizens at risk?
> 
> They would call for mutual aid agreements to run calls. By not having our units already in their area it would take us 1-3 hours to respond to every one of their 911 calls.


In a typical business scenario the executives, or business owners, have all of the power.  Just a few generations ago in the United States that meant that workers were compelled to work long hours in dangerous environments for little pay.  The work day was often 16+ hours, the pay was just enough for a worker to get by purchasing food and staple items at the business store, and there was little protection if one was injured on the job.  Lost an arm in a machine?  You lost your job, your way to make a living, and you hope it grows back.

Labor unions helped organize workers to provide the group a stronger voice when negotiating with their employers.  Labor unions fought for the eighth hour work week, minimum wage, and pushed for safety regulations that made working in America significantly safer.  Workers now had a grievance process when complaining about company practices, and were afforded due process before being disciplined or fired.  Labor unions levels the playing field between employers and employees.

A job action or strike is a fundamental tool for labor unions.  They can't withhold pay, they surely can't fire anyone, but they can refuse to work until their demands are met.

The public is absolutely inconvenienced during a labor strike.  When pilots strike it can shut down an entire airline, causing major chaos for a vital transportation service.

In the case of EMS, the company would be responsible for mobilizing a workforce to take the place of their workers on strike.That may mean calling for mutual aid, activating HEMS for every priority call, or even putting nurses and doctors on ambulances.  It would be a major pain for the employer.  This would pressure the employer to negotiate and come to a swift resolution.
_
The crux of my whole argument is that scab workers, those crossing picket lines and filling in for striking workers, hurt the industry_.

_When scab workers and companies step in as a replacement for Gold Cross Ambulance employees, putting rigs on the road to respond to calls as normal, Gold Cross Ambulance executives have less incentive to negotiate an immediate end to the strike._

While my conscience wouldn't allow me to actively undermine a group's efforts and cross a picket line, that's a personal decision you have to make.


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## exodus

So we should just let people die. Good plan.  Because that is exactly what will happen.  I honestly hope gold cross shuts down and someone like us or desert ambulance takes over.  

The company is losing money and will lose contracts if they keep behaving this way, every mutual aid, aka us, is a call lost for them and a major fine.


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## Jim37F

MMiz said:


> I don't understand who you are to make those determinations.  Their employees are refusing to work in dangerous rigs.  No one should have to work in a dangerous environment.
> 
> The rest of your arguments are all speculation.  We don't have first hand knowledge of their negotiations, we don't know how long a strike would last without scab workers, and no one on this board knows if they have enough money to pay for the raises in salary and benefits workers are asking for.
> 
> I'm not an expert in EMS, and I'm not an expert in much, but I recognize the value of organized workers demanding a better quality of life and safer equipment.  I recognize the value of a work action/strike, and how much scab workers can undermine their efforts.
> 
> I don't think labor unions serve many purposes today, but my conscience wouldn't allow me to actively undermine a group's efforts.



Is Gold Cross surviving by scab workers? Are there enough scab workers to field enough ambulances that Gold Cross can basically just ignore the strike and continue business as usual? 

Or with the strike are the majority of EMS calls being handled by mutual aid from other companies that don't normally operate in the area? If so than Gold Cross will not make any money off a transport by AMR or whoever is picking up the slack. Not to mention any fines or penalties Gold Cross is incurring by not meeting contractual obligations with local governments to provide services. 

So I fail to see how other providers stepping to pick up the slack and provide emergency medical services to the people in Imperial County are failing their brethren EMTs demanding (rightfully so IMO) better working conditions.


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## MMiz

exodus said:


> So we should just let people die. Good plan.  Because that is exactly what will happen.  I honestly hope gold cross shuts down and someone like us or desert ambulance takes over.
> 
> The company is losing money and will lose contracts if they keep behaving this way, every mutual aid, aka us, is a call lost for them and a major fine.


No one is going to die because of this work action, federal regulators wouldn't allow it.  Right now the company is still operating, but instead of using their own labor they're exclusively using mutual aid.

I'm quoting your post for posterity.  AMR... AMR... AMR (until they  realize it's not profitable, close up shop, and lay off all of their  employees with a couple weeks notice.)


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## exodus

And were not running calls for gold cross, we are picking up mutual aid, just posting in the area because we know what's going on.


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## exodus

MMiz said:


> No one is going to die because of this work action, federal regulators wouldn't allow it.  Right now the company is still operating, but instead of using their own labor they're exclusively using mutual aid.
> 
> I'm quoting your post for posterity.  AMR... AMR... AMR (until they  realize it's not profitable, close up shop, and lay off all of their  employees with a couple weeks notice.)



 Amr will use desert ambulance which already has a foot hold out in the far north portion of the area.

Really? Nobody will die? What about the full arrests with rosc not going to be transported for an hour and half due to the wait for flight? Or stemis? Or strokes?


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## exodus

MMiz said:


> No one is going to die because of this work action, federal regulators wouldn't allow it.  Right now the company is still operating, but instead of using their own labor they're exclusively using mutual aid.
> 
> I'm quoting your post for posterity.  AMR... AMR... AMR (until they  realize it's not profitable, close up shop, and lay off all of their  employees with a couple weeks notice.)



Mutual aid which costs them money in fines with every call.


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## Jim37F

MMiz said:


> No one is going to die because of this work action, federal regulators wouldn't allow it.  Right now the company is still operating, but instead of using their own labor they're exclusively using mutual aid.
> 
> I'm quoting your post for posterity.  AMR... AMR... AMR (until they  realize it's not profitable, close up shop, and lay off all of their  employees with a couple weeks notice.)



How do federal regulators keep anyone from dying? 

How is AMR picking up extra business putting money in Gold Cross' bank account?


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## exodus

And morals aside. What gives them the right to destroy property taking emergency serviced out of service. I hope they catch the people who did it and lock them up for a while and get that felony on their record. We don't want those people around.


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## MMiz

Jim37F said:


> How do federal regulators keep anyone from dying?
> 
> How is AMR picking up extra business putting money in Gold Cross' bank account?



Federal regulators and mediators can require workers continue to work, as if they weren't striking, during ongoing negotiations. There are laws that regulate cooling off periods and most parts of a job action.

Scab workers allow the company to continue to function, albeit in a diminished capacity, during a strike.  The company would not be able to funds ion, and the executives would face increased pressure, without scab workers. 

Again, I'm not here to argue whether any side is right or wrong.  Scab workers and companies undermine the efforts of the workers on strike.  I couldn't do it, but clearly others are willing to cross the picket line.


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## exodus

They are not able to function though. They are losing money and generating NO revenue at all.

When the grocers went on strike, was it inappropriate for other grocery stores to remain open and sell goods?  Isn't this the same thing?


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## Jim37F

MMiz said:


> Federal regulators and mediators can require workers continue to work, as if they weren't striking, during ongoing negotiations. There are laws that regulate cooling off periods and most parts of a job action.
> 
> Scab workers allow the company to continue to function, albeit in a diminished capacity, during a strike.  The company would not be able to funds ion, and the executives would face increased pressure, without scab workers.
> 
> Again, I'm not here to argue whether any side is right or wrong.  Scab workers and companies undermine the efforts of the workers on strike.  I couldn't do it, but clearly others are willing to cross the picket line.



But unless Gold Cross is able to bill a patient and collect a payment when AMR responds, treats and transports under mutual aid, these other companies responding aren't scabbing.


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## socalmedic

MMIZ, you are terribly mistaken and apparently do not fully understand what is happening. 

1. the AMR units that are responding to the area are UNION AMBULANCES as well. their union is aware of what is happening and approves of it. thus they cannot be scabs as they are union employees acting under the direction of their union.

2. they are not scabs because they are not crossing gold cross ambulances picket lines. running a call in the area does not equate to running a call for gold cross.

3. the strike is doing exactly what it is meant to do, there is an absolute work stoppage and gold cross is not able to bill for any services right now. additionally because they have no ambulances on the road they are getting fined for every call which is run by mutual aid.

4. the calls are going to be run regardless of whom gets called. if amr is requested they WILL send an ambulance. are you advocating for someone to wait 2 hours for an ambulance to drive from riverside county or blyth? GCA is getting fined the same whether AMR takes 2 hours or 15 min, why not have an ambulance or two posted in the area. 

5. I cannot believe that you are actually advocating for mediators to order the union back to work for a cool off period. doing this will allow GCA to once again generate bills, how is that beneficial to the union?

6. here is some riverside history for you, when AMR riverside went on strike 5 years ago AMR brought in non-union paramedics from out of state to work on AMR ambulances. this is an example of SCAB labor, the key is they are non-union and working for the company which is in the labor dispute. BTW this labor cost AMR alot of money!!! more than they ended up paying in the new CBA over its entire term, AMR will spend any amount of money to try to break a union.


disclaimer: *I am a union employee*, my union has a no strike - no lockout clause. *we believe it is unethical to strike and leave our community, which most of us live in, unprotected.* Despite this we are the highest paid division in the area, and in the top 5 of the country. our oldest front-line ambulance has 104k miles. yes, I work for the Borg. if the company knows that we will not strike, how is it that we have all this? there are better ways of getting what you want than striking and we have some geniuses who are on our side of the table.


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## Handsome Robb

Why would Gold Cross bill for transports that AMR does in GC's area? 

When we run mutual aid we bill for it, not the agency we are helping. That's how I understand it at least.

I, admittedly, no nothing about unions and how they operate. Never been a part of one. They seem like there are a lot of benefits but they also seem like they have the ability to cause a lot of problems.

I know when a province in Canada had their ambulance service on strike the way the union contract was written they still staffed ambulances and responded to calls albeit at a minimal level of staffing. I think there are times and places for strikes but I also think in certain services (ie EMS) that they are inappropriate. Like SoCal said, it's ridiculous to leave an area without any EMS.


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## DesertMedic66

socalmedic said:


> MMIZ, you are terribly mistaken and apparently do not fully understand what is happening.
> 
> 1. the AMR units that are responding to the area are UNION AMBULANCES as well. their union is aware of what is happening and approves of it. thus they cannot be scabs as they are union employees acting under the direction of their union.
> 
> 2. they are not scabs because they are not crossing gold cross ambulances picket lines. running a call in the area does not equate to running a call for gold cross.
> 
> 3. the strike is doing exactly what it is meant to do, there is an absolute work stoppage and gold cross is not able to bill for any services right now. additionally because they have no ambulances on the road they are getting fined for every call which is run by mutual aid.
> 
> 4. the calls are going to be run regardless of whom gets called. if amr is requested they WILL send an ambulance. are you advocating for someone to wait 2 hours for an ambulance to drive from riverside county or blyth? GCA is getting fined the same whether AMR takes 2 hours or 15 min, why not have an ambulance or two posted in the area.
> 
> 5. I cannot believe that you are actually advocating for mediators to order the union back to work for a cool off period. doing this will allow GCA to once again generate bills, how is that beneficial to the union?
> 
> 6. here is some riverside history for you, when AMR riverside went on strike 5 years ago AMR brought in non-union paramedics from out of state to work on AMR ambulances. this is an example of SCAB labor, the key is they are non-union and working for the company which is in the labor dispute. BTW this labor cost AMR alot of money!!! more than they ended up paying in the new CBA over its entire term, AMR will spend any amount of money to try to break a union.
> 
> 
> disclaimer: *I am a union employee*, my union has a no strike - no lockout clause. *we believe it is unethical to strike and leave our community, which most of us live in, unprotected.* Despite this we are the highest paid division in the area, and in the top 5 of the country. our oldest front-line ambulance has 104k miles. yes, I work for the Borg. if the company knows that we will not strike, how is it that we have all this? there are better ways of getting what you want than striking and we have some geniuses who are on our side of the table.



Not all of the AMR divisions that are covering for them are union.


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## Handsome Robb

exodus said:


> And morals aside. What gives them the right to destroy property taking emergency serviced out of service. I hope they catch the people who did it and lock them up for a while and get that felony on their record. We don't want those people around.



This. 100%

I understand what they're getting at with this strike and if I worked their I'd probably be right alongside them in it.

With that said. *Do not tamper with and/or destroy other crews' and companies' equipment. Especially if it messes with patient care.*

I said it in an off duty thread, EMS is a job and it stops when I clock out but at the end of the day we do have times where a patient's life is in danger and without properly functioning equipment there may be nothing we can do. If the tampering resulted in a death I personally wouldn't b opposed to a manslaughter charge or even a murder 3 charge depending on the situation.


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## exodus

Robb said:


> Why would Gold Cross bill for transports that AMR does in GC's area?
> 
> When we run mutual aid we bill for it, not the agency we are helping. That's how I understand it at least.
> 
> I, admittedly, no nothing about unions and how they operate. Never been a part of one. They seem like there are a lot of benefits but they also seem like they have the ability to cause a lot of problems.
> 
> I know when a province in Canada had their ambulance service on strike the way the union contract was written they still staffed ambulances and responded to calls albeit at a minimal level of staffing. I think there are times and places for strikes but I also think in certain services (ie EMS) that they are inappropriate. Like SoCal said, it's ridiculous to leave an area without any EMS.



We bill the patient, not GC.  GC Is completely locked out as far as bringing in revenue until this strike is over.


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## MMiz

I can't find a single news story about this, are you sure it happened, or is something you heard from a friend of a friend of a neighbor?

If it did happen, it's unfortunate and uncalled for.  Still, theorizing about a manslaughter or murder charge for tampering with an emergency vehicle is a bit out there, no?  No one died as a result of the incident.  

You should have seen how a few AMR employees acted out when they shut down the local AMR station.  Did I hold all of AMR accountable for their behavior?  Absolutely not.  AMR's ability to provide a relatively consistent and professional product at a national scale is impressive and raises the bar for many EMS services.

Of the three companies responding to mutual aid calls for Gold Coast Ambulance, I don't know of a single one that is all union.  It's quite clear from the news stories that non-union workers, even with AMR, are responding to calls.

Please Google "scab worker" before continuing to argue over the technicalities of the definition.

No need to brag about being a union employee, I'm not really sure there is anything worth bragging about.  You work for one of the highest paid divisions because you work in a region with one of the the highest costs of living in the nation.  It's surely not because of your pious company of tactful negotiators.

I can appreciate the hordes of AMRers coming to the defense of the mothership, but I once again go back to my original and _only_ point.

AMR employees and other services that are serving the area are undermining Gold Coast Ambulance's efforts to gain safe equipment, fair  compensation, and career stability.  I don't care if it's EMS, there is something to be said about advancing the profession by not crossing a picket line.

That's my final contribution to the thread.  No need to agree to disagree, just make sure what you're doing serves the greater good.


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## Jim37F

MMiz, how is a completely separate company responding to requests for medical aid hurting efforts by GC employees to improve their working conditions?

They are not crossing picket lines to crew Gold Cross ambulances and bill to GC bank accounts.

Gold Cross is still shut down, they're not receiving any income because they're not transporting any patients. 

The strike is having exactly the same effect on management as if there was no mutual aid being provided, except the residents in the Gold Cross service area still have emergency medical services. How is this a bad thing?


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## MonkeySquasher

Oh my, this thread escalated quickly.




Highlander said:


> Emts around here generally make 9-10$ p/h , not sure about medics. I do know when rural/metro had the strike over In new york for like a day, we where being sent over to work that week.



Highlander, did you come to NY?  As a Supervisor or as an employee?  Either way, if you got treated like crap for being brought in to work the area, I apologize.  People, especially in Buffalo, got carried away.  Up here in Niagara Falls we made fun of the scabs, but it was more of a party atmosphere. haha




BLZ54 said:


> ENTIRE POST OF BULLSH....stuff.



Hm, one post in outrageous defense of the company and union-bashing.  This seems legit.   :glare:

Here in NY we kept it civil.  A few things happen...  Someone took all the antennae for the portable radios, a cup of dipspit was thrown at a supervisor's car... But no actual permanent damages.  Why?  Because these are the same people that, when the strike is over, you still have to go back to work with.

As a general rule, if the person is hired by the company to work the job that a Union worker should fill, for the length of the strike, they are considered a scab.  Bringing in outside salaried employees of the same company does not make them scabs, they're still employees working in a different capacity.  In EMS, activating mutual aid agreements does not make them scabs, they are employed by a completely separate company that is just stealing the calls.

In a strike between union and ambulance service, we all have a job to do and a process to follow.  On the union side, we make our claims, walk off the job, do it professionally, and then walk the picket lines.  You don't cross the line, you don't help the company, you don't help anyone the company uses to cover the call volumes.  But you don't sabotage them either.  On the company side, they're losing the work force, and have to fill the seats any way they can.  This means salaried employees and scabs.  If they can't find enough of those, they still have to ensure minimally interrupted service to the community to avoid community and political backlash.  This means mutual aid activation.  This takes the call away from, in this case, Gold Cross, and money out of their pockets.  But the call still gets handled, a person gets the care they need, and another company profits from it.

So given an extended ETA (and seeing $$$, I'm sure) the company decides to just forego the long drive and preemptively put units in the area.

tl;dr - I can understand both sides of the coin, having just gone through something similar.  No, employees or other mutual aid companies are not scabs.  Even the union ones..  They aren't crossing a picket line, they're responding to a formal mutual aid agreement.  Those are two separate things.  But does this agreement handle calls and make it easier for Gold Cross to survive the strike and take leverage away from the union?  It does.  To say that 'people are going to die!' is correct, but lets remember that many of our patient's medical outcomes are decided before EMS is even activated.

Bottom line, I feel private for-profit companies have no place in EMS.  Period.  I feel all EMS nation-wide should be either municipal or a not-for-profit paid organization.


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## exodus

MonkeySquasher said:


> To say that 'people are going to die!' is correct, but lets remember that many of our patient's medical outcomes are decided before EMS is even activated.



I want to just comment on this point, I am speaking towards time sensitive conditions such as MI's and strokes, where a 10 minute response makes a huge difference over a 30 minute response.


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## MonkeySquasher

exodus said:


> I want to just comment on this point, I am speaking towards time sensitive conditions such as MI's and strokes, where a 10 minute response makes a huge difference over a 30 minute response.



lol  Don't worry, I knew what you meant.  I was just remarking that many of our patient's conditions are either stable and remain stable, or their fate is sealed before we have any contact.  Those few cases of STEMI/CVA/SCA and a few other cases that are well within a viable window of treatment are the ones that will suffer, but they also tend to be a small percentage of transports.  So a proper usage of scab-ulances and mutual aid would provide coverage for those transports, let BLS ones hold a bit, and the system works.


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## DesertMedic66

From a source within the drama I got some information. 

Apparently tomorrow if the company is still on strike they will have breached their contact with the county/area and their contract will be up for bid by other companies. 

Also a clause in the employees contract with the company allowed the company to take every employee who is striking and move them from full time employment to part time. They are hiring medics and EMTs to perminatly fill all the open full time shifts.


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## TRSpeed

DesertEMT66 said:


> From a source within the drama I got some information.
> 
> Apparently tomorrow if the company is still on strike they will have breached their contact with the county/area and their contract will be up for bid by other companies.
> 
> Also a clause in the employees contract with the company allowed the company to take every employee who is striking and move them from full time employment to part time. They are hiring medics and EMTs to perminatly fill all the open full time shifts.


Ouchhh


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## CALEMT

DesertEMT66 said:


> From a source within the drama I got some information.
> 
> Apparently tomorrow if the company is still on strike they will have breached their contact with the county/area and their contract will be up for bid by other companies.
> 
> Also a clause in the employees contract with the company allowed the company to take every employee who is striking and move them from full time employment to part time. They are hiring medics and EMTs to perminatly fill all the open full time shifts.



Wonder if AMR will jump on that? I've also heard rumors that Gold Cross has replaced all of the employees that were on strike any insight on that?


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## PotatoMedic

DesertEMT66 said:


> ...Also a clause in the employees contract with the company allowed the company to take every employee who is striking and move them from full time employment to part time. They are hiring medics and EMTs to perminatly fill all the open full time shifts.




Would they be required to join the union?  If not how does that work?  Last time I checked, if a company wants to "get rid of the union" they have to shut down completely and start a new company.  IE the Walmart method to prevent unions.


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## Jim37F

FireWA1 said:


> Would they be required to join the union?  If not how does that work?  Last time I checked, if a company wants to "get rid of the union" they have to shut down completely and start a new company.  IE the Walmart method to prevent unions.



I thought Walmarts method was just to straight up fire anyone they merely thought was interested in forming a union


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## PotatoMedic

Jim37F said:


> I thought Walmarts method was just to straight up fire anyone they merely thought was interested in forming a union



I remember hearing about a Walmart that unionized.  They shut that store down.  built a new one across the street and hired new workers.  I think it was said they had to finish closing the store before they could even start buying land and applying for permits.  Something about labor laws.


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## BLZ54

I've heard similar comments regarding the county's termination of Gold Cross's services. There have been quite a few "strikers" that have crossed the line as of late due to a multitude of reasons such as simply needing a paycheck to realizing that their actions are getting out of hand.

Though dismissed by some as outlandish, a few of the rigs were found to have been tampered with several weeks ago with paper towels in the air ducts and a blue "jello-like" substance in the radiators.

Of course there have been some genuine problems with the rigs which unfortunate, but a fact of life considering the harsh weather conditions that the Imperial Valley faces. What's not okay is for "scabbers" and outside agencies to be threatened for continuing to provide service to the residents of the county regardless of the union's complaints.

I understand that working conditions can be poor, especially in the Imperial Valley where many companies take advantage of the unassuming nature of its employees which leads to events such as we are currently experiencing. Though everyone needs to be able to support their family with the wages they earn, only so much can be expected when it is well known ahead of time that this field does not pay as lavishly as it does in other areas. When comparing the pay of a Paramedic to a Nurse in the Imperial Valley, it is understandable that many people are fighting tooth and nail for higher pay. $25-29/hour for nursing compared to $9-11/hour for EMS is a huge difference and though each field requires a different amount of time in which to earn its respective certification, this provides those who are unsatisfied ammunition against their employers for better compensation.




DesertEMT66 said:


> From a source within the drama I got some information.
> 
> Apparently tomorrow if the company is still on strike they will have breached their contact with the county/area and their contract will be up for bid by other companies.
> 
> Also a clause in the employees contract with the company allowed the company to take every employee who is striking and move them from full time employment to part time. They are hiring medics and EMTs to perminatly fill all the open full time shifts.


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## surfinluke

Is there any new news after this last session with the mediator?


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## Jim37F

This past weekend my US Army Reserve unit was conducting Airborne Operations in the desert near El Centro (Blackhawk jumps! Yay!!) and we had a Gold Cross ambulance on stand by. I asked the Medic about the strike (didn't get much of a chance to talk to the EMT) but he (the medic) said that he had just got hired within the last couple weeks and didn't know much about the strike, but said he thought they had recently reached a settlement. No other details provided. 

On the second day, their ambulance broke down. It was a (relatively) newer looking Sprinter van. They were just idling in the desert (it was hot, 90-100° both days w/ really high humidity due to the passing thunderstorms), and yet apparently the fan belt just up and failed. They had to tow the rig and bring in a replacement. The crew did comment that the belt probably hadn't had any maintenance since the van was bought. 

Just a bit of insight into why maybe they are/were striking if rigs are routinely breaking down just posting.


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## DesertMedic66

We are still staffing units to go and cover the area. I have no new info on the strike aside from that.


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## CALEMT

DesertEMT66 said:


> We are still staffing units to go and cover the area. I have no new info on the strike aside from that.



Wow its still going on!?!?


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## DesertMedic66

CALEMT said:


> Wow its still going on!?!?



Yep. We are still staffing one 72 hour ambulance for the area.


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## savemachine

*Still on?*

I am reading still on strike.

I mean think about the service area. They already have other companies serving so this isn't like NYC when they shut down the whole city because of a transit strike.

This is a good idea and a free world so you can strike if you want to!


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## DesertMedic66

Don't know if I already posted this but some of their EMTs and Medics who were on strike returned to work because they needed a paycheck. It makes it near impossible to stay on strike for a long time if you have bills to pay and people to feed.


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## CALEMT

DesertEMT66 said:


> Don't know if I already posted this but some of their EMTs and Medics who were on strike returned to work because they needed a paycheck. It makes it near impossible to stay on strike for a long time if you have bills to pay and people to feed.



We picked up a couple people from Gold Cross and also lost a couple people going to Gold Cross


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