# Certificate vs Associates vs Bachelors



## orange20medic (Apr 3, 2011)

Want some thoughts...

Anybody out there have a Bachelors in EMS (or EMS management or something that has to do with EMS)? How about an associates? 

I'm currently in school to get my Associates of Applied Sciences in Emergency Medical Technology. Pretty much you take EMT-Basic, EMT-Intermediate, and EMT-Paramedic. It takes 5 semesters to finish and in addition to the EMT classes you take English, Math, Speech, Psychology, and electives. They also offer Certificate of EMT at my school which also takes 5 semesters and all you take is the EMT classes. 

Besides the pay raises that some companies offer to those with Associates and Bachelors in the field, what are some benefits? What can you do with a Bachelors in EMS that you can't do with an Associates or certificate?

I'm just asking because after I get my Associates I'm thinking about going on to get my Bachelors. Any comments would be appreciated


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## VFlutter (Apr 3, 2011)

I would definitely get your bachelors; it will only help you in the future. One thing to think about is if you plan on pursuing any other medical career in the future.  With a bachelors you can usually take accelerated programs  such as a one year nursing whereas without it you would have to take a two year program.


Also it is nice to have a more diverse education. I am in nursing school and i had to complete 65 credit hours of general education before i could start actual nursing classes. This has left me with two minors and a great deal of knowledge in various fields that has really helped me.


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## orange20medic (Apr 3, 2011)

Thanks! I actually do not plan on going into nursing at all. I tried that and didn't like the first semester of it. I know that isn't long, but I knew it wasn't for me. If I go farther after paramedic, I'll just go to get my CCParamedic. I'd like to start an ambulance company which would probably make it nice to have a Bachelors of Emergency Medical Management.

Know of anywhere that offers a Bachelors in the field? The only one I know that offers the Bachelors of EMM is Univ. of Pitt...


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## HotelCo (Apr 3, 2011)

sara22emt said:


> Know of anywhere that offers a Bachelors in the field? The only one I know that offers the Bachelors of EMM is Univ. of Pitt...



The University of New Mexico does.

http://hsc.unm.edu/SOM/emsacad/bsems.shtml


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 3, 2011)

I believe Western Carolina University and one of the schools in Kentucky (Eastern Kentucky University?)  do as well.  Then there is the program at University of Maryland, but the problem is that you'll be educated in Maryland which means you'll be getting clinically exposed to EMS as it was practiced about 1-2 decades ago in the rest of the country. 

As far as a bachelors in "emergency management"....you might as well just get your EMT-P and a bachelors in public administration.  No need to paint yourself into a corner iwth a overly specialized degree. 



> I'd like to start an ambulance company which would probably make it nice



....to have a background in business, not emergency planning.  Being independently wealthy also helps because of the startup and operational costs and the lack of reimbursement in many areas.


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## rescue99 (Apr 3, 2011)

sara22emt said:


> Want some thoughts...
> 
> Anybody out there have a Bachelors in EMS (or EMS management or something that has to do with EMS)? How about an associates?
> 
> ...



An associates in EMS with a bachelor's in public health or allied health education would do more for you in EMS probably. The long term job potential is significantly greater.


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## Trevor (Apr 3, 2011)

I currently have a B.S. Emergency Health Sciences. Most places, as a field medic, you wont se much of a difference. Maybe get paid slightly more. What it does, besides the obvious of increasing your knowledge (which is very important), is it helps raise the level of education across our profession... It will also make you more marketable for managerial jobs in the future. If you want to open/run a company, then i would look at either an Mph or MBA type program. Obviously, these would be Master's Programs. 

Nursing programs started offering Associates and Bachelor's programs, and now you pretty much have to have an ADN to work as a nurse. And BSN are gettign to be much more common. With any luck (and some help of the NAEMT) soon you will have to have an Associate's degree to be Paramedic!


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## DitchDoctorGabe (Apr 3, 2011)

Are you looking at the traditional college route or online? There are other BS degrees that you can get that are related to what we do in the field. I've put a couple links below, I hope they help.

http://ditchdoctorgabe.blogspot.com/2009/12/bs-degrees-for-paramedics.html

http://www.training.fema.gov/emiweb/edu/collegelist/


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## DitchDoctorGabe (Apr 3, 2011)

Excellent point on starting up a service usafmedic45 has; starting a service is expensive and you need to have some working capitol and expect to not make any money for a few years or just break even. If that's your dream go for it!


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 3, 2011)

> bachelor's in public health



A bachelors in public health, unless you're planning to follow on with a masters in it is all but pointless.  It's no better than the emergency planning degree. 



> It will also make you more marketable for managerial jobs in the future. If you want to open/run a company, then i would look at either an Mph



Seriously?  Why an MPH?  The programs do not go into any detail on running a business.  It's like getting an MD just so you can manage a Burger King.


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## 46Young (Apr 3, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> As far as a bachelors in "emergency management"....you might as well just get your EMT-P and a bachelors in public administration.  No need to paint yourself into a corner iwth a overly specialized degree.



This ^

If you look at most, if not all of the job postings within EMS for administration positions, they typically ask for a four year healthcare degree or related field, not for an EMS degree specifically. With that four year EMS degree, you won't see much if any additional financial compensation than you would with just a cert. Having the four year healthcare degree doesn't guarantee you a future supervisor position, either. Those positions are few and far between in EMS, and more often than not are subject to cronyism and nepotism. They'll interview a few people, but they've already chosen who they want. You know how that goes.


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## Trevor (Apr 4, 2011)

Seriously?  Why an MPH?  The programs do not go into any detail on running a business.  It's like getting an MD just so you can manage a Burger King.[/QUOTE]


Bit of a Hyperbole, dont ya think? MPHs are one of the most versatile and most "rounded" graduate degrees you can get in healthcare. While you're technically correct (they dont offer much in the way of "actual management" classes), a person with an MPH would be much more qualified to run an EMS department then most. The problem with EMS, in this area, is simply the lack of applicable programs. If i was going to go to graduate school (which I've been thinking about for over a year), I would get the most versatile (*read* most bang for my buck) i could... Do you need a MPH to run an EMS system? No. But then again, theer aer plenty of EMS directors/"Chiefs" without any type of degrees... (yet again another problem with our PROFESSION)


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 4, 2011)

> Bit of a Hyperbole, dont ya think? MPHs are one of the most versatile and most "rounded" graduate degrees you can get in healthcare.



But she's not talking about working in healthcare.  She's talking about wanting to run a business which is not going to be within the scope of an MPH's training as "versatile and rounded" as it is.  



> a person with an MPH would be much more qualified to run an EMS department then most.



Maybe...it would depend upon the individual since the degree has nothing to do with that.  Have you actually looked at the curriculum?  I have because that's the next step in my career before I get my doctorate in epidemiology.  It's not a management degree, even if you go for the "health policy and management" specialty which is geared for those who want to work the touchy-feely side of public health, help write regulations or be a lobbyist:

15 Hour Core
P500: Social and Behavioral Health Science in Public Health
P504: U.S. Health Care Systems and Health Policy
P517: Fundamentals of Epidemiology
P519: Environmental Science in Public Health
P551: Biostatistics for Public Health

6 Hours of Practical Experience
P602: Public Health Internship
P705: HPM Final Concentration Project

12 Hours of Required Concentration Courses
P611: Policy Development, Implementation and Management
P616: Strategic Planning for Health Services Organizations
P619: Health Economics for Public Health Professionals
P658: Methods of Health Services and Policy Research

12 Hours of Public Health Courses (Choose 4 Courses From This List)
P600: Epidemiology Research Methods
P609: Infectious Disease Epidemiology
P612: Health Outcomes Research
P613: Public Health and Emergency Preparedness
P614: Program Planning in Public Health
P618: Cancer Epidemiology
P631: Maternal Child Family Health
P632: History of Public Health
P652: Biostatistics for Public Health II
P655: Historical Evolution of Epidemiology
P657: Applications of Cost Effectiveness Analysis in Public Health
Other Elective on Campus with Prior Approval from Faculty Advisor 3
Total Number of Credits for Required Courses  33
Total Number of Credits for Public Health Courses   12
Total Number of Credits for the MPH Degree   45
Updated 7/

Even when they talk about planning, management, implementation and economics, it's on a much larger scale than would be useful as an ambulance service manager or owner like this person is talking about. 



> If i was going to go to graduate school (which I've been thinking about for over a year), I would get the most versatile



Well, if you're going with the goal of being a manager or running a business, the MBA is far more versatile and doesn't limit you as much.  If you want a career in public health (like I do) or are wanting to do research, the MPH is a great idea.  Otherwise, my analogy stands.


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## Trevor (Apr 4, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> But she's not talking about working in healthcare.  She's talking about wanting to run a business..."
> 
> And that mentality is exactly whats wrong with private EMS... It absolutely is "working in healthcare"...


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## Trevor (Apr 4, 2011)

...


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 4, 2011)

> And that mentality is exactly whats wrong with private EMS



 



> It absolutely is "working in healthcare"...



*facepalm*

Not when you're running the business operations.  Have you ever worked on that side of the field?


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## usalsfyre (Apr 4, 2011)

Trevor said:


> usafmedic45 said:
> 
> 
> > But she's not talking about working in healthcare.  She's talking about wanting to run a business..."
> ...


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## TreySpooner65 (Apr 4, 2011)

Currently I am taking courses to get my Associates in Paramedic Studies. Basically its just like the other guy was talking about, you take EMT-B, Paramedic Theory, some other medical courses like Abnormal Psychology, Medical Terminology, etc. 

After that I plan to transfer to our sister college just a town over and get my fire tech classes done. I'll be able to transfer the GE's from my first degree to the sister college and then I'll have 2 Associates (sounds pointless I know but it cant hurt for the same amount of work I'd have to do anyway). 

Then I plan on working if at all possible then down the road maybe getting a BS in some kind of public management program either online or through night classes or something.


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## Trevor (Apr 4, 2011)

usalsfyre said:


> Trevor said:
> 
> 
> > You DO realize 95% of healthcare is run like a business right? Even a fairly large percentage of third-service county EMS agencies?
> ...


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## usalsfyre (Apr 4, 2011)

Trevor said:
			
		

> UNFORTUNATELY, I do realize that. That doesnt change the fact that it probably shouldnt be run like that...


Until there's a complete change in the US's payment structure I'd expect more of this in healthcare rather than less. It sucks, but it's reality.


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 4, 2011)

Trevor said:


> usalsfyre said:
> 
> 
> > UNFORTUNATELY, I do realize that. That doesnt change the fact that it probably shouldnt be run like that...
> ...


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## BEorP (Apr 4, 2011)

46Young said:


> This ^
> 
> If you look at most, if not all of the job postings within EMS for administration positions, they typically ask for a four year healthcare degree or related field, not for an EMS degree specifically. With that four year EMS degree, you won't see much if any additional financial compensation than you would with just a cert. Having the four year healthcare degree doesn't guarantee you a future supervisor position, either. Those positions are few and far between in EMS, and more often than not are subject to cronyism and nepotism. They'll interview a few people, but they've already chosen who they want. You know how that goes.



True, most EMS job postings that want a degree are happy with any degree, but that is not to say that you might not have a better shot at them with a more relevant degree. I think that my BS in Paramedicine helped to at least make my resume stand out a bit more to help me get positions in research and EMS education.

It is also a fair point though that if someone with a degree in Paramedicine/EMS/something healthcare or EMS specific then decides they want out completely and want to go and work in a lab... well, that will likely be harder than if you had a bachelor of science degree in biology or some other more "traditional" science.

When it comes down to it, a degree is a degree and the more education the better. If you like EMS and there are bachelor level EMS programs available to you, go for it. If you like EMS but also maybe have a passion for biology or anything else, go for that (sometimes it can be nice to get away from EMS for a bit anyway).


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## Medic2409 (Apr 5, 2011)

Mebbe not adding to the discussion here, but UT San Antonio offers a BS in Paramedicine.

Perhaps it may be somewhat limiting for fields outside of EMS, but nonetheless I think it's still a good thing.

Also, I've heard that in order to be an EMS Educator soon one will have to have a BS Degree, a change I thoroughly agree with, btw!  This degree from UT San Antonio appears as if it will definitely prepare one to teach.


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## Trevor (Apr 5, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> Trevor said:
> 
> 
> > I can't help but notice that you're one of the folks with the overspecialized bachelors degree so for two very good reasons I'm going to end this debate.  The other reason being that I'm not about to argue politics with you because I'll never convince you that your eyebrows are somewhere around the level of your internal sphincter and you'll never convince me that fire based EMS is a better or more morally valid model.
> ...


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## Veneficus (Apr 5, 2011)

*Where to begin?*

Ok...

Regardless if you think EMS should be a profession or not, and it most certainly currently is not in the US, you need to first understand the forces in play. 

There is considerable money going around for EMS transport. Outside of a few well meaning rebels like me, a majority in EMS support the current system.

NAEMT is a waste of the paper its charter is written on. Have you ever read some of their position statements? They stand for nothing, except making money off of absolutely stupid ideas like "advanced medical life support in 2 days."

Many members are firefighters, even chapter officers are, and if you think for a second they are going to promote the expanding role of EMS over the IAFF tagline, then your degree isn't worth the paper it is printed on.

Medicine is all about money. You know why? Because without it we can't afford all of that cool equipment and highly educated staff. Even in the best medical systems, the bean counters are just as important as everyone else. No venture, government or private succeeds without the money side of things.

The reason that most EMS leaders don't have degrees or get bogus ones from going to places like the national fire academy, is twofold. One most of those laborers don't see the value in education. Secondly, not having one themselves they are terrified to death of those competing for promotion that do. (You realize that most people who enter the fire and a majority of EMS services are not academically inclined?)

I agree that EMS would be much better served as a part of public health. But it isn't going to happen until the US healthcare system completely collapses at least.

I do not think a public health degree is useful to current EMS providers or managers. As was said, it deals with a scope far grander than the mantra of US EMS which is "transport." Easily not for the next 20 years.

People like me and USAF have been at this game a long time. It is going to take baby steps. The first of those steps is to point the simpler minds towards degrees that have obvious impact on day to day operations, not abstractly in a system that is not reality. Otherwise you will never convince anyone in the field of the benefits of education past trade school.

It seems like you have identified oversimplified problems in EMS. It seems like you have a lot of zeal towards improving it. But your arguments have been tried. I've even tried them myself. But it is not zeal that is going to win the day, nor beating failed strategies like a dead horse. 

If you really want to get into the game, you need to forget about course listings, because your "pathology" and "advanced assessment" are laughable to me, and are just empty words to many EMS providers. 

You need to demonstrate in a very real way the everyday benefits of education. You need to inspire other providers to want to be better. You need to coach, and mentor. You need to show people how to make all that "book learnin" real. Teach them how to apply it. 

You cannot change today's leaders. All you can do is inspire tomorrow's that your way has merit. 

The leaders of Fire and EMS today are looked upon by the new people as the Heroes who lived the dream. They are the priests of the true faith. The newbies seek to please and emulate them in every possible way. Not to mention these leaders are masters at the politcal and business side of things. You cannot argue to change hearts and minds. You can only win them.

You have opposing views, fine, cool, but if you want to change things, you are going to need the help of the people who have been fighting the good fight. People who understand the intricacies. People exactly like USAF.


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## MrBrown (Apr 5, 2011)

Veneficus said:


> If you really want to get into the game, you need to forget about course listings, because your "pathology" and "advanced assessment" are laughable to me, and are just empty words to many EMS providers.



*Brown puts down Porth and Brown's other trauma, emergency medicine and anaesthesia books, runs to the corner and cries into Brown's Cat in the Hat hat


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