# Become/work as EMT-P before going for MD?



## thatSPIKYflip (Aug 1, 2010)

I know some people might think that I am crazy for wanting to work as an EMT-P and delay earnings as an MD, but I've been tossing this around in my mind for months. I've just decided to get opinions from others.

I'm a rising high school senior that will be applying to colleges this fall. My ultimate goal in life is to become a physician. I know it should be a stupid idea to delay becoming a physician, but for some reason, I [seem to] want to work as a paramedic for a few years before going to medical school. I really like EMS, or at least I'd like to think so. Maybe I'm in this phase because I'm only an EMT student and haven't worked actual EMS with 12s/24s/etc and the 3 AM calls for a fall/something minor. [I do volly for my local ambulance squad once a week and occasionally on weekends, so I do have some experiences with EMS life] But despite this, I feel like I would want to work in EMS. I think being the on "the front lines" of medical care and working in the field are what intrigue me the most.

The two variations of my life plan for the next decade or so are:
1. Go straight from college to medical school.
2. Go to a college where I can do paramedic school and complete the premed prerequisites simultaneously, work as a paramedic for a few years, then apply for med school.

I am considering attending programs where the paramedic curriculum is built into the bachelor's degree program [specifically University of Pittsburgh Emergency Medicine major and SUNY Stony Brook Health Science major with a concentration in Emergency Management].

Can anyone offer me advice/knock some sense into me?


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## Veneficus (Aug 1, 2010)

*where did I put my boots?*



thatSPIKYflip said:


> I know some people might think that I am crazy for wanting to work as an EMT-P and delay earnings as an MD, but I've been tossing this around in my mind for months. I've just decided to get opinions from others.
> 
> I'm a rising high school senior that will be applying to colleges this fall. My ultimate goal in life is to become a physician. I know it should be a stupid idea to delay becoming a physician, but for some reason, I [seem to] want to work as a paramedic for a few years before going to medical school. I really like EMS, or at least I'd like to think so. Maybe I'm in this phase because I'm only an EMT student and haven't worked actual EMS with 12s/24s/etc and the 3 AM calls for a fall/something minor. [I do volly for my local ambulance squad once a week and occasionally on weekends, so I do have some experiences with EMS life] But despite this, I feel like I would want to work in EMS. I think being the on "the front lines" of medical care and working in the field are what intrigue me the most.
> 
> ...



If you want to be a physician it will take all of your time and energy to be competative.

If you want to be a paramedic, you do not want to be a physician, you will not get anything out of paramedic class that will help you in medical school. 

Unless you end up working EMS in an extremely progressive and busy system, being a paramedic will not help you get into medical school.

The classroom part of medical school is harder once you are a paramedic for any length of time as you have to unlearn oversimplified concepts and be constantly aware not to dismiss information that "doesn't seem important in your experience," but is extremely important if you plan on passing any tests.


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## MDA (Aug 1, 2010)

Not sure if you know, or don't know... it takes MD's a good while to earn that "Doctor" salary. You have your 4 year pre-med, multiple year Med program, specialties that can take a couple years, then residency and attending. 

I know some Doctors that made under 50k their first few years earning a salary during the attending phase and so on.

Just saying.


Aside from that do what interests you and go from there. You're young and it's hard to know if you'll truly enjoy a career field when you have zero experience in it.


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## JPINFV (Aug 1, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> Unless you end up working EMS in an extremely progressive and busy system, being a paramedic will not help you get into medical school.


I'd argue that the only way working in a EMS system will provide a meaningful boost past any other, "Look at me, I was so close to a patient I could smell them" type clinical experience is if a medical director gets to know you personally and is able to and willing to write a letter of rec. The admission committees neither know nor care which systems in the US are progressive and busy. In fact, most ad com members won't know the difference between a paramedic and an EMT.


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## Veneficus (Aug 1, 2010)

MDA said:


> You have your 4 year pre-med, multiple year Med program, specialties that can take a couple years, then residency and attending.



The generally accepted order of operation is premed(with bachelor's) medical school (4-6 years depending on what country but 6 can be done instead of a bachelor's sometimes) Then residency, then maybe a second residency depending on your taste, possibly a fellowship, and then you are an attending (consultant) in your respected field(s).



MDA said:


> I know some Doctors that made under 50k their first few years earning a salary during the attending phase and so on.



In the US the average salary for a resident is 47K a year. 



MDA said:


> Aside from that do what interests you and go from there. You're young and it's hard to know if you'll truly enjoy a career field when you have zero experience in it.



If you do not become a physician (a feat only about 1:6000 people achieve) you can always become a paramedic.

If you frst become a paramedic you may never be a physician. You may find yourself with responsibilities that make returning to school more difficult. Which compounds the effort you need to make to try and be competative.


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## Veneficus (Aug 1, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> I'd argue that the only way working in a EMS system will provide a meaningful boost past any other, "Look at me, I was so close to a patient I could smell them" type clinical experience is if a medical director gets to know you personally and is able to and willing to write a letter of rec. The admission committees neither know nor care which systems in the US are progressive and busy. In fact, most ad com members won't know the difference between a paramedic and an EMT.



I agree with what you are saying.

I would go even further and say unless the medical director or a close personal friend is on the admissions committee even the letter of rec won't mean much.

But I was going off the OP desire to go to UPitt, which certainly would know what a paramedic is and does.


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## rescue99 (Aug 1, 2010)

thatSPIKYflip said:


> I know some people might think that I am crazy for wanting to work as an EMT-P and delay earnings as an MD, but I've been tossing this around in my mind for months. I've just decided to get opinions from others.
> 
> I'm a rising high school senior that will be applying to colleges this fall. My ultimate goal in life is to become a physician. I know it should be a stupid idea to delay becoming a physician, but for some reason, I [seem to] want to work as a paramedic for a few years before going to medical school. I really like EMS, or at least I'd like to think so. Maybe I'm in this phase because I'm only an EMT student and haven't worked actual EMS with 12s/24s/etc and the 3 AM calls for a fall/something minor. [I do volly for my local ambulance squad once a week and occasionally on weekends, so I do have some experiences with EMS life] But despite this, I feel like I would want to work in EMS. I think being the on "the front lines" of medical care and working in the field are what intrigue me the most.
> 
> ...




Sounds like a good idea if you like eating while you wait for a med. school. I know quite a number of Doc's who went that route and none seem to regret the choice they made. Good Luck either way!


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## JPINFV (Aug 1, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> The generally accepted order of operation is premed(with bachelor's) medical school (4-6 years depending on what country but 6 can be done instead of a bachelor's sometimes) Then residency, then maybe a second residency depending on your taste, possibly a fellowship, and then you are an attending (consultant) in your respected field(s).



Also, if I remember reading the statistics correctly, something like 30% of students entering US medical schools have a graduate degree (doctorate or masters) prior to entering medical school.


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## Veneficus (Aug 1, 2010)

*Speaking from experience*



rescue99 said:


> Sounds like a good idea if you like eating while you wait for a med. school. I know quite a number of Doc's who went that route and none seem to regret the choice they made. Good Luck either way!



If I was not a paramedic I would never have even considered going to medical school. 

Having said that, it is not the easy way, it is the long and hard way. It is much easier to get a degree while living off student loans than it is to have a family, go to school full time undergrad, get good grades, and work at least 1 full time job and 2 part time to make ends meet while getting the same loans as everyone else to pay for school.

Being a paramedic only helped get me into school because of some very rare circumstances. Circumstances that cannot be depended upon anymore than betting on 00 in roulette.


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## rescue99 (Aug 1, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> If I was not a paramedic I would never have even considered going to medical school.
> 
> Having said that, it is not the easy way, it is the long and hard way. It is much easier to get a degree while living off student loans than it is to have a family, go to school full time undergrad, get good grades, and work at least 1 full time job and 2 part time to make ends meet while getting the same loans as everyone else to pay for school.
> 
> Being a paramedic only helped get me into school because of some very rare circumstances. Circumstances that cannot be depended upon anymore than betting on 00 in roulette.



 Medical school seems to be the goal regardless of the route taken. Youth is a wonderful betting chip! Few have died from good old fashioned hard work and ambition. Either decision seems like a good one ^_^


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## silver (Aug 1, 2010)

There is the ability to apply as a non-traditional student. However that doesn't mean you work as a medic for like 2 years and then apply. As the average age now is 24 matriculants, you would need to be spending much more time working.

I personally think that if you want to work in EMS for a bit, going to grad school and working/volunteering as an EMT while you are in grad school is much more valuable.


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## JPINFV (Aug 2, 2010)

silver said:


> There is the ability to apply as a non-traditional student.



That is true and there are a number of older students in my class. However I definitely do not envy the older students, especially the students with children. I couldn't imagine putting in the amount of studying needing while also tending to the needs of a family.


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## MrBrown (Aug 2, 2010)

If you want to become a physician being a Paramedic beforehand will be of little benefit to you.

I am in the boat of having to spend my nights and free time learning the most basic of high school chemistry in order to even attempt a first year University chemistry course to satisfy medical school requirements.  I have at least a six to seven year late-start on those who left school when I did and will be the average age of a senior registrar when I am a first year house officer.

You gain a small appreciation for some gross aspects of medicine as an Ambo but if your goal is to become a doctor, go become a doctor from the get go.


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## firetender (Aug 2, 2010)

*What ARE you getting in to?*

Some things stood out to me in Vene's posts to this thread. In two different posts he used the word "competitive" He also spoke of the lack of financial remuneration in the early years compounded by taking on very significant debt and having to sacrifice for years in order to get out of it.

I have no doubt that Vene's eye is on the ball of really contributing. I'm guessing he'd say all the above is peripheral to the goal; to become the best doctor he can and then do the best job for his patients he is capable of; that other is just stuff you deal with. I'm also keeping in mind that the system within which he's learning, is a bit different than what I'm about to describe. (Still, I suppose it's the one he's coming back to; am I right on this, Vene?)

So, what follows in not meant to be a judgment of the people who pursue medicine as a career. Still, I can't help ask myself about the dynamics that drive so much of medicine (as practiced in the U.S.) today.

The structure of medicine today; as defined by the AMA, hinges on intercession by drugs and surgery. To develop those drugs and surgeries and the diagnostic tools it takes to drive people to use the drugs and surgeries costs tons of money. That money is supplied by major corporations, and they are making sure they get their profits from their developments. This increases the cost of (U.S.) health care considerably. Of course, it trickles down to medical school; it must!

Because, overburdened with debt, the only way for a new Doctor to get out of it is to completely embrace, use and prescribe the very things the major corporations sell. The corporations set the prices in the marketplace, and, to a certain extent, the tools that are available to use as well. (Think in terms of a drug is developed to treat "A" and, after fanfare and the honeymoon is over, it is found to be not too effective. It is taken off the market, but of course, not until a substitute has been devised. Either way, ONE OF THE manufacturers comes out ahead.) The Physicians "deliver" what the corporations offer. 

Am I nuts? Oddly enough, as a tour guide, I've gotten to cart around a number of physicians who've been in the biz 20+ years and have come to Maui in an attempt to thwart burnout! Even I have been amazed at the consistency of their stories of seeing six or more patients every hour and MOSTLY writing prescriptions for each! These are the mainstream and they are not happy men!

I honestly do not have the intent to disparage modern medicine. Just like becoming a paramedic you get in to medicine because you believe you will help people. Just like a paramedic does, a Dr. discovers he juggles a lot, manages more and overall effect on people's lives? A small percentage and none of it acknowledged.

The question I would have you ask yourself is "_*Do I REALLY have the out and out relentless dedication that it will take to actually become a doctor AND LOVE IT!" *_Because, ultimately, there's no one to teach you how to do that in school. You have to create that, all by yourself and completely from scratch. Unless you're sure you can pull it off, don't get sucked into a machine that is a b*tch to get out of!

If, however, you can answer that in the affirmative, I wouldn't waste time doing anything else. Do not quickly squander your youthful exuberance in the back of an ambulance when you could be letting it leach out more slowly as you go through the traumas of medical school and your internships!


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## MrBrown (Aug 2, 2010)

You are onto it FT!

Brown has no interest in sitting his office writing out prescriptions for drugs that simply maintain a little symptom relief from some perfectly preventable  disease that won't make money if it is erradicated and referring people for surgery that probably won't help.

Modern medicine is focused on profit and sick people are profitable people.

Hence why I plan to be an Intesivest.

Oh it also helps that HEMS only take EM, Anaes or ICU Reg's


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## clibb (Aug 2, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> That is true and there are a number of older students in my class. However I definitely do not envy the older students, especially the students with children. I couldn't imagine putting in the amount of studying needing while also tending to the needs of a family.



Uhhh, my father went to one of the best universities in Europe when he had two kids and a wife. He would spend nights away studying and during the summer he actually traveled to another town during the week for his job to be able to put food on the table since you don't receive any student money during the summer in Sweden. He has a Master of Science degree from it. 
I think it was a pretty ignorant statement that you just made. They are going through a tougher time than you are (no punt intended).

As long as you have one hell of a wife to take care of the kids as you're trying to make a better life for them, then you're set. That's something my father has. 

If he would had stayed with his job and never went to school we would be in the poverty class in Sweden. Now, since he went to school we made it to upper middle class in the US. Which I personally think is a hell of an accomplishment by mother and father.

Now you got to remember that in Sweden school is for free, you get money when you go to school and have good grades, and you have public transportation. Going through college with a family in the US is something that I could never imagine doing. It would be incredibly hard especially with how much the universities cost here.


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## JPINFV (Aug 2, 2010)

clibb said:


> Uhhh, my father went to one of the best universities in Europe when he had two kids and a wife. He would spend nights away studying and during the summer he actually traveled to another town during the week for his job to be able to put food on the table since you don't receive any student money during the summer in Sweden. He has a Master of Science degree from it.
> I think it was a pretty ignorant statement that you just made. They are going through a tougher time than you are (no punt intended).


First, a MS is vastly different from an MD or DO. As someone who has an MS from a degree program that mirrored the first year of medical school (known as a "Special Masters Program"), it still wasn't the same as going through the actual first year of medical school with all of the additional courses that was not covered in it. That isn't even considering the fact that most traditional MS programs have the research part and classes mixed instead of essentially a year of only courses followed by a year or research (with a hell of a lot more free time than when taking classes)

What I'm trying to figure out is what is so ignorant about the concept that I don't envy them for their position. Yes, it's a tougher time. Hence why I don't envy it, even if they have more real world experience. For me, I'd rather put off having a family for a few years than have a family and try to work something out. In fact, every classmate that I've talked to that has a family knows how much stress studying has put on their family and how much they've missed out over the past year.


However, go ahead. Call me ignorant for suggesting that people shouldn't choose the non-traditional route when they have a choice to go traditional vs non-traditional. There's a very big difference between someone without a family going, "Should I continue my education or start a family (or, in this case, pursue another, albeit related, trade prior to starting towards working towards entering a profession)?" and someone with a family going, "I need to further my education, when is the best time to do so?" Oh, and just curious, what experience do you have with grad level programs as a student?


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## clibb (Aug 2, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> First, a MS is vastly different from an MD or DO. As someone who has an MS from a degree program that mirrored the first year of medical school (known as a "Special Masters Program"), it still wasn't the same as going through the actual first year of medical school with all of the additional courses that was not covered in it. That isn't even considering the fact that most traditional MS programs have the research part and classes mixed instead of essentially a year of only courses followed by a year or research (with a hell of a lot more free time than when taking classes)
> 
> What I'm trying to figure out is what is so ignorant about the concept that I don't envy them for their position. Yes, it's a tougher time. Hence why I don't envy it, even if they have more real world experience. For me, I'd rather put off having a family for a few years than have a family and try to work something out. In fact, every classmate that I've talked to that has a family knows how much stress studying has put on their family and how much they've missed out over the past year.
> 
> ...




I completely agree with the non-tradition and traditional route that you stated. I'm 100% for the traditional route. I was just saying that there are people who have done the non-traditional and have been very successful...

I don't have too much experience with the grad level programs as a student. I was just pointing it out from my point-of-view on the whole "envy" about the elder in college. 
I am going to go through pre-med and then med school before I even think about having a family. There's no way I could accomplish what some people do with a family.


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## Aprz (Aug 2, 2010)

My teacher wanted to be an RN, decided to take EMT while trying to get the prereq for the RN program, eventually turned her focus on Paramedic, and doesn't feel like she could go back to school to become an RN. She regrets it.


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## BEorP (Aug 2, 2010)

I generally agree with the overall tone of the responses: if you want to be a physician, go to medical school without delaying by playing on the ambulance.

The primary exception that comes to mind would be if you have such a strong interest in EMS that you absolutely know without question that you want to be an EMS Physician. In this case, having the "street cred" that comes with having worked on the road _may_ be beneficial in the future (after medical school). It will certainly not be a requirement to be a good medical director by any means, but it may help you gain the respect the EMS providers who you certify.


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## MrBrown (Aug 2, 2010)

Honestly, the only reason I want to work on the helicopter as an aeromed retrieval reg is because I have EMS experience.  Otherwise I would probably end up a podiatrist or something .... ewww 

Oh and apparently dermo is the most competitive speciality (heck I thought it'd be plastics or something) and OBGYNs get sued most, I figured Anaesthesology would be sued lots and lots.  My Uncle is a Consultant Anaesthetist and he gets sued, well, apparently not enough because he has buckets of money still!


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