# Ambulance attendants accused of molesting patients



## VentMedic (Dec 11, 2008)

*For those of you who get a little emotional at the thought of treating a rapist or child molester.........*



*Ambulance attendants accused of molesting patients*

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jQ35Z01g2zdiKZHtkES5Lg53flcgD950M9RO0



> DALLAS (AP) — They answer the call 24-7, often risking their own safety to rescue the sick and injured and rush them to the hospital. But some paramedics have been more predator than hero.
> 
> Over the past 18 months, *at least 129 ambulance attendants across the U.S. have been accused of sex-related crimes on duty or off,* an investigation by The Associated Press found. Some of them molested patients in the back of an ambulance.
> 
> ...


 
*New York has most EMT sex-abuse cases in the nation*

By RICHARD RICHTMYER | Associated Press Writer December 11, 2008 http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newyork/ny-bc-ny--sexoffenders-emts1211dec11,0,1905285.story


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## RailFan77 (Dec 11, 2008)

That is sick and scary.  

The thought of someone preying on their patient like that is just disgusting and those people give us a bad name.  Anyone who preys on a pt deserves to be punished to the fullest extent of the law.


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## speakofblue (Dec 11, 2008)

*Key word*

Yes, that is terrible. I'm sure that kind of stuff happens. But, you have to remember the key word: "accused." Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there that make false accusations. It happens...


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## VentMedic (Dec 11, 2008)

speakofblue said:


> the key word: "accused." Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there that make false accusations. It happens...


 
Actually, many of those have already been convicted.


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## NolaRabbit (Dec 11, 2008)

I hate these stories. But we all know these people are out there. This is one reason why I think EMS candidates and applicants should be rigorously psych tested prior to hire. Putting a predator with incapacitated patients is like leaving the fox to watch the henhouse.


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## speakofblue (Dec 11, 2008)

That's good that the guilty have been convicted and justice has been served. Aside from that, false accusations of wrongdoing - whether related to molestation or otherwise - are rampant.


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## speakofblue (Dec 11, 2008)

The article states: "Former Dallas Fire Chief Steve Abraira suggested ambulances carry three workers. Ambulances usually have two — one in the front, one in the back." I agree with the Chief. 

Plus, we wouldn't have to wait around for lift assists as much. 

Now...about that n00b...does he get the back seat?


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## Sasha (Dec 11, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> Actually, many of those have already been convicted.



Actually, a lot of innocent people get convicted of crimes they did not commit everyday.


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## VentMedic (Dec 11, 2008)

Sasha said:


> Actually, a lot of innocent people get convicted of crimes they did not commit everyday.


 
Quote from "Treating a rapist" thread


Sasha said:


> I treat him or her like any other mentally ill patient.


 
So here is an example of the double standard that I have referenced to in a couple of threads.  If it is one of your own you are willing to look the other way or give them the benefit of the doubt.  Unfortunately, whether it is with spousal abuse, inappropriate sexual action and/or remarks or substance abuse,  some may turn a blind eye and blame it on the job or an unwillingness to rat on someone. Thus, these predators and people who do need help thrive in the profession where "we take care of our own".


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## rhan101277 (Dec 12, 2008)

Well its hard to say without knowing the whole story.  But when doing certain procedures you have to let modesty go by the waist-side so you can do your job.  I am not talking about just touch wherever.  But take a traction splint for instance, you have to get the ischial strap right beside, the ishium(sp?) which involves putting your hand in between some legs, but it doesn't stay there.  I worry about offending people when doing procedures, though I have done any alone yet.  Guess that is why it is so important to explain what/why you are doing something.


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## Sasha (Dec 12, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> Quote from "Treating a rapist" thread
> 
> 
> So here is an example of the double standard that I have referenced to in a couple of threads.  If it is one of your own you are willing to look the other way or give them the benefit of the doubt.  Unfortunately, whether it is with spousal abuse, inappropriate sexual action and/or remarks or substance abuse,  some may turn a blind eye and blame it on the job or an unwillingness to rat on someone. Thus, these predators and people who do need help thrive in the profession where "we take care of our own".



No. It has nothing to do with "taking care of our own". If they are guilty, then by all means convict them, but I know from personal experience that innocent people are put in jail every single day. I don't judge anyone based on what I read or watch anymore, unless there is undeniable proof staring you in the face, a confession, video tape, positive DNA evidence, because it's often one sided.


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## Sasha (Dec 12, 2008)

I also blame a good part of the "EMT, Paramedic, Doctor, etc. touched me inappropriately or molested me" complaint on lack of education on the patient's side as to what is appropriate and what is not appropriate during a medical exam. I've run into people who look at me like I have two heads when I tell them I have to lift their breast to place a 12 lead.


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## VentMedic (Dec 12, 2008)

I could also mention the author of one of the most loved books in EMS and how he lost his license as a physician in Florida. But, his book is still very good and many continue to support him in a very nice life style since his release from prison. 

We recently had a troll on another forum, who may or may not have been a Fire Medic, discuss in detail why he liked to do 12-leads. It is unfortunate that there are some EMT(P)s who do inappropriately discuss certain aspects of a patient in earshot of others.

That lack of education can go both ways. Do the 8 -16 hours of clinicals with minimum patient contact actually prepare you to professionally disrobe a patient?


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## Explorer127 (Dec 12, 2008)

Sasha said:


> I also blame a good part of the "EMT, Paramedic, Doctor, etc. touched me inappropriately or molested me" complaint on lack of education on the patient's side as to what is appropriate and what is not appropriate during a medical exam. I've run into people who look at me like I have two heads when I tell them I have to lift their breast to place a 12 lead.




I agree- 

Patients will never understand why we do everything we do, and this is why it's necessary to explain any procedures that may at all be misintepreted as inappropriate.


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## Dobo (Dec 12, 2008)

Okay so they have all these stats on what Ambulance crews do, do they have other professions statistics to compare the numbers to? It could be the same percentage by police or firefighters, or doctors and surgeons. 

But if they are guilty they should of course be prosecuted to the furthest length of the law. I just feel the story is incomplete because it talks only of Ambulance crews and has no supporting data to conclude these numbers are significantly higher and any other similar profession.

There are sick people out there and it is very unfortunate but this article is poorly researched because it shows no supporting data that Ambulance crews are any worse statistically that any other profession, they don't even attempt to show the proper reporting skills to have a true "expose" of ambulance crews which I think they intended this to be.


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## MMiz (Dec 14, 2008)

*129 paramedics accused of sex crimes*

DALLAS — They answer the call 24-7, often risking their own safety to rescue the sick and injured and rush them to the hospital. But some paramedics have been more predator than hero. 

Over the past 18 months, at least 129 ambulance attendants across the U.S. have been accused of sex-related crimes on duty or off, an investigation by The Associated Press found. Some of them molested patients in the back of an ambulance.

*Read more!*


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## VentMedic (Dec 14, 2008)

http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=10158


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## MMiz (Dec 14, 2008)

Oops.  Don't mind me.


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## Emtint08 (Dec 14, 2008)

*Omg*

I am beyond words on this thread.  This is disgusting.  :sad:


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## Emtint08 (Dec 14, 2008)

Sasha said:


> I also blame a good part of the "EMT, Paramedic, Doctor, etc. touched me inappropriately or molested me" complaint on lack of education on the patient's side as to what is appropriate and what is not appropriate during a medical exam. I've run into people who look at me like I have two heads when I tell them I have to lift their breast to place a 12 lead.



I agree.  There are patients I have run into myself, regardless of how much you try to protect yourself and others in this situation, and you do everything as properly you can, the patients see you more as a threat than a help and get carried away.  Education of the patient would be a good start, but as a patient when you arent feeling well or are scared, their perceptions will automatically be altered and we have to learn to roll with it.  That is why it is so important to try to not be alone, or at the very least DOCUMENT the call very well.   Patients can say whatever they like, but proof has to exist.  Its disgusting to think that there are individuals, paramedics and patients alike, who take advantage of the situation.  Innocent people lose careers, lives and other things as a result of false accusations.  Everything needs to be taken into context.  In my class, they really stress the protocols of the standard of duty, and go over heavily negiligence, battery, assault and the like so you know how to protect yourself and your patient, assuming you are of good concience.  Every profession, including nursing, nursing homes, doctors, lawyers, etc, will encounter such problems. Any high profile job is open to this kind of stuff. My idea is keep your side of the street clean, and you should be okay.


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## Sasha (Dec 14, 2008)

MMiz said:


> DALLAS — They answer the call 24-7, often risking their own safety to rescue the sick and injured and rush them to the hospital. But some paramedics have been more predator than hero.
> 
> Over the past 18 months, at least 129 ambulance attendants across the U.S. have been accused of sex-related crimes on duty or off, an investigation by The Associated Press found. Some of them molested patients in the back of an ambulance.
> 
> *Read more!*



Accused again being the key word. EMTs/Medics are at a high risk of being falsely accused due to lack of education on what is and isn't acceptable on a physical exam. I'm not saying all the medics/EMTs were innocent, but I don't want to go boo'ing and shaming them.

And also, how many teachers, garbage men, lawn workers, store clerks, doctors, priests, nurses, and lawyers were accused of sex related crimes on or off duty over an 18 month period?


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## VentMedic (Dec 14, 2008)

If it was an article about the number of complaints for inappropriate touching it would be well into the 1000s. 129 is not that many and these are serious crimes. I really do not want someone who sexually molests children even if it is off duty in the back of an ambulance regardless of what medical license they hold. 

The minimal contact with patients an EMT or even Paramedic gets in their training may not appropriately prepare them for a physical exam on real people to where they must respect the patient differently than a manikin. Some are not taught how to appropriately apply ECGs electrodes on a patient in a non emergent situation. Some are not taught about respecting a patient's privacy in public areas as well as the back of a truck. Some do not know that you should tell a patient when and where you are going to place your hands. This is even a good idea for a patient that appears unconscious. 

How many times have you yourself or watched others stick their stethoscope under the shirt of someone without explanation? Or, grab the the patient's pelvis to check stability without saying a word? 

Patient communication is the one skill that EMT(P) schools seem to fail at teaching. This can also apply when it comes to talking with other medical professionals.

There is a certain etiquette for patient care and respect even within the walls of a hospital. Some EMT(P)s take offense when a curtain is quickly drawn around a patient. Many are clueless as to why this is done and get their tempers ruffled. 

A male physician may ask another professional to be at bedside when they are examining the patient. A male (or female) EKG technician or nurse will take precautions of either having another person within earshot, carefully explaining and doing minimal exposure of the patient (male or female). Privacy and touching etiquette applies to both male and female (patient and provider) or whatever inbetween category they fall into. 

There are emergency situations where some things can be overlooked however we all know statistically how many of your calls require that type of urgency. Those that truly are emergent will probably not be the ones complaining about your lack of manners or inappropriate touching. 

It makes me wonder how many patients that have no voice are violated by predators in EMS. There are many people both young and old who have incapacitating diseases or birth defects that make them easy prey for those with these perverted tendencies. The predators may have just gotten too "hungry" to satisfy their own perversions and attacked someone who wasn't so helpless. Thus, they got caught.

We also shouldn't try to justify their actions by pointing fingers at other professions. Police your own work place. Other professions have also gotten their media time. 

Just as I have posed the question in other threads of what you would do if your partner had a substance abuse problem or a domestic abuse problem, would you look the other way? Or, do you correct your partner if you see their assessment could be taken as groping by the patient, lay person or even another medical professional? Do you hear more than you share of inappropriate sexual jokes from a co-worker? Have you seen sex websites that could be kiddy porn on your work computer? There are alot more than 129 that haven't been caught yet or brought to trial.


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## austinmedic77 (Dec 14, 2008)

while I don't now nor will I ever condone this behavior, the implication seems to be that this is a rampant problem in EMS or an EMS only problem.  I would be curious as to how many RN, RRT, x-ray techs, er techs or doctors are accused and or convisted of similars crimes.  How many patients with no voice are violated by predators in the ER, Dr's office, daycare ect.  It may be anticdotal but I would bet that the numbers of accusations compared to the number of practitioners would not be drastically different then those in EMS.  These predators are evident in every walk of life and every profession. I have seen many hospital employees at all levels of training do many things that were inappropriate and/or criminal, and have reported these occurances to the hospital ethics staff, that being said I have witnessed and reported the same with EMS peers  I think the key here is to realize that we can not prevent this behavior as these are sick people and are everywhere but that we need to be vigilant in reporting and preventing any preditorial behavior regardless of where it is seen and whom is the person involved.


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## FFEMT1A (Dec 14, 2008)

This same thread is over on JEMSconnect. If you do the math, it works out to be ABOUT .00086 % of the TOTAL number of medics and EMT's working today. A really small percentage. I DO NOT condone the actions there people are accused of.. and the important word here is ACCUSED. Just making a comment


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## VentMedic (Dec 14, 2008)

FFEMT1A said:


> This same thread is over on JEMSconnect. If you do the math, it works out to be ABOUT .00086 % of the TOTAL number of medics and EMT's working today. A really small percentage. I DO NOT condone the actions there people are accused of.. and the important word here is ACCUSED. Just making a comment


 
This and many other arguments are used to keep states from establishing background checks or adequate reporting systems. The constant whining about "what does it matter?", "it only happens 0.0000086%?", "It'll involve filling out another piece of paper for applications" and some of the other many excuses found on these forums. Yet these same people will get on a forum to just rant on and on about an "accused" rapist or child molester they are "forced" to treat and proudly tell all what they would like to do to the person. But, the thought of someone you know or who wears the patch, you make all sorts of excuses for them. "People just don't understand us". 


Thus, the EMS board in many states have not been able to weed out or even track offenders adequately because there will always be those that oppose it. Other professions do have a background checks for both education and licensing. They have an adequate system in place for reporting those with a license to the board and established policies for dealing with them. 

Guess what? You are not the only medical providers that do assessments on patients. There are millions of healthcare providers out there. However, through learning a few lessons in patient etiquette and instilling confidence to the patient in the professional's abilities, not too many make the news.

These news articles are not meant to bash any profession but hopefully to insite a need to change the oversight of some licenses and education of the providers. Other professions again take note and come back with something that instills confidence in the public. EMS providers turn to the forums to whine about how everybody is picking on them. It is the same old story when it comes to eduation...alot of whining but little action. 

Both RNs and RRTs (especially in CA) have taken serious hits in their professions from the news media but they are usually quick to make a change that gets them back in good standing a proving they can be professionals. Of course, they both have help from well established state and national associations.

California EMSA also had to learn the hard way and is still in a learning process.


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## austinmedic77 (Dec 15, 2008)

No one is saying that criminal background checks are a bad thing. My state dose a criminal check and if you have an infraction you must apply for consideration to have this overridden and yes some people do slip through the cracks just like they do in any other profession RN's have the same ability to apply for exception and some of them slip through the cracks as well.  And most respectable employers also require some sort of criminal background check and those that dont should.  I had to have a federal all inclusive background check with fingerprints the same one that RN's have to do so not all places are dropping the ball.  And just cause other professions are not making the news does not mean that this behavior is not happening it just means there is not a current news article about it, and to think or imply that it is not happening in your or other professions because of your different liscensing procedures is very naive.  The article that was posted even states that this is not a greater occurance in EMS then it is in other professions that the numbers are in line with any other sector of the professional world.  Do some things needs to change, YES.  Can some things be done better, YES. But this is the same of all professions and is not an isolated EMS problem it is a problem in the entire world and I'm all for any changes that will reduce the incidence of occurance but I'm also adult enough to admit that with sick people in this world there will always be some that slip through the cracks and prey on defensless people regardless of wht career they choose.


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## VentMedic (Dec 15, 2008)

austinmedic77 said:


> No one is saying that criminal background checks are a bad thing. My state dose a criminal check and if you have an infraction you must apply for consideration to have this overridden and yes some people do slip through the cracks just like they do in any other *profession RN's have the same ability to apply for exception and some of them slip through the cracks as well.* And most respectable employers also require some sort of criminal background check and those that dont should. I had to have a federal all inclusive background check with fingerprints the same one that RN's have to do so not all places are dropping the ball. And *just cause other professions are not making the news does not mean that this behavior is not happening it just means there is not a current news article about it, and to think or imply that it is not happening in your or other professions because of your different liscensing procedures is very naive.* The article that was posted even states that this is *not a greater occurance in EMS* then it is in other professions that the numbers are in line with any other sector of the professional world. Do some things needs to change, YES. Can some things be done better, YES. But this is the same of all professions and *is not an isolated EMS problem it is a problem in the entire world *and I'm all for any changes that will reduce the incidence of occurance but I'm also adult enough to admit that with sick people in this world there will always be some that slip through the cracks and prey on defensless people regardless of wht career they choose.


 
Did you even bother to read my post? I also suggest you read the article again. 

And then, you want to blame the world for the flaws in the U.S. EMS system? Other countries have managed to do EMS a lot better than the U.S.

I never said the other professions did not have their share of problems. They are just more proactive in prevention and disciplinary action. Nearly half of the states require no background check for EMS at some levels. Do you know how many EMS providers are still working with serious convictions on their record because there are *no* background checks in their state? 

Again, pointing fingers at the flaws of other professions is great only if you are doing something to improve your system by learning from their mistakes. Instead, it appears you are justifying the flaws in the EMS systems by saying "they do it too". 

I could site many examples for all professions but there are two recent headline makers one of which is the CA nurses' immediate response to a news article about the flaws in their accountibility system. Another was the RT board's immediate action when an (ONE) RT was accused of several murders.


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## mycrofft (Dec 15, 2008)

*Sasha, roger your 7:17 Am post*

I just read in the AARP newsletter an article from a former NY vice governor or something that every surface (direct quote) in hospitals is covered with _C.difficele_. Another article said every ambulance is crawling with drug resistant staph. So we have to trust every aticle at two-faced value, right?
Cut the indignation acts, think of all the false accusations and lawsuits, and look at this as a percentage of the profession. Not to be tolerated, but save your indignation for real causes. 
Like how easy it wold be for an accusation to label you for the rest of your career?


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## VentMedic (Dec 15, 2008)

mycrofft said:


> I just read in the AARP newsletter an article from a former NY vice governor or something that every surface (direct quote) in hospitals is covered with _C.difficele_. Another article said every ambulance is crawling with drug resistant staph. So we have to trust every aticle at two-faced value, right?
> Cut the indignation acts, think of all the false accusations and lawsuits, and look at this as a percentage of the profession. Not to be tolerated, but save your indignation for real causes.
> Like how easy it wold be for an accusation to label you for the rest of your career?


 
Hospitals and ambulances do have something in common, they both have patients that have C. Diff and it is very easily spread especially if the ambulances do not (and most don't) have the proper solution for cleaning. 

I happen to make working for EMS legislation my "cause".   Unfortunately each time we get close to forming a decent piece of legislation, there are those in EMS that will cry "oh poor, poor us".      

I also consider those that might fall prey to someone the system failed to screen.   I think a child who has been raped by someone will also have to live with a label emotionally.  If it could have been prevented by a piece of legislation for a simple background check then the system has failed that child.


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## Sasha (Dec 15, 2008)

I didn't know there was anywhere that didn't background check their EMTs/Medics. I had to pay for a VECHs back ground check to even get in EMT school. Even so, that only works if they had done it before. 

I wasn't pointing a finger at other professions, I was trying to put it in perspective. 129 people from EMS people, on or off duty, in 18 months, across 50 states. In 2007, in Florida alone there was 11,214 forcible sex crimes reported. (fdle.state.fl.us). There are going to be bad apples in every profession, it isn't acceptable, but be realistic, it's going to happen. Also remember a sex crime could be as little as a 19 year old boy having consensual sex with a 16 year old girl, a coworker making a dirty joke to another, highly sensitive coworker that reports them for sexual harrassment, or being caught urinating behind a tree. That news article was written for one thing, shock value. Please take things into consideration before you go and paint all field personnel with a corrupt brush.


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## VentMedic (Dec 15, 2008)

Sasha said:


> That news article was written for one thing, shock value. Please take things into consideration before you go and paint all field personnel with a corrupt brush.


 
I never said everyone is corrupt. 

And you don't understand the purpose of the article? Do you realize how hard some states have worked to get appropriate legislation passed only to have a road block thrown in by some who only think the purpose of increased measures to protect both the public and provider is interpreted as "picking on them"?

I think CA is the best example that it is now responding with increased measures to insure people with extensive criminal backgrounds are not in the back of an ambulance. The media helped with that and some their articles were from tips from EMT(P)s who were tired of covering for co-workers with known pasts and legislative issues that left them with few alternatives. Yet, even with facts published, many claimed the media was only "bashing" EMS. The media and professionals involved in EMS just wanted to make a change. Unless there was some sort of shock value, the issues would continue to be swept under the rug and a blind eye would be turned on any problem employees and their actions. Even when a violation, criminal or patient care, was noted it was rare action was taken. 

You need to be more aware of your own state's issues to see just how many complaints they do handle a day and how the process does weed out the bogus ones to protect the provider while still maintaining a relative safe environment for the patient. Making your own broad statements with little understanding about various laws and legislation is naive at best. 



> I didn't know there was anywhere that didn't background check their EMTs/Medics. I had to pay for a VECHs back ground check to even get in EMT school. *Even so, that only works if they had done it before*.


 
Disagree. Again, you need to understand your state's reporting system. Criminal arrests can to be reported if you are a licensed professional. In Florida, Baker Acts can also be reported and yes, some professionals will have their license suspended or revoked for having a "bad day". 



> Also remember a sex crime could be as little as a 19 year old boy having consensual sex with a 16 year old girl, a coworker making a dirty joke to another, highly sensitive coworker that reports them for sexual harrassment, or being caught urinating behind a tree


 
Do you realize how many of these complaints don't make headlines or they are dismissed if there is a formal complaint with the Board? If companies and responsible employees demonstrated some professionalism, these complaints would not have a chance to originate. These situations still should not be in a professional work environment and those that do accept it or look the other way are doing very little to promote professionalism. We then get headlines to shock. But, instead of waking up EMS providers to what is going on in their own backyard and to make some changes or be more aware, it gives some in EMS opportunity to again whine they are so misunderstood and picked on. 

Professionalism is everyone's responsibility. Understand your own state's regulations and how complaints are reported, investigated and disciplinary processes. And, remember before making you own blanket statements, realize there are 50 states with 50 different ways of doing things. CA also increases that number since they have the county way of doing things.


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## BossyCow (Dec 15, 2008)

Anytime there is a job that is in a position of trust, it will attract a certain number of people who will want to be able to abuse that trust. The key is how does the profession react and what is done to minimize the chances of it happening again.

The term predator is applied to a set of individuals who are heavily invested in being able to manipulate, the system, their bosses/supervisors/co-workers, their victims, their neighbors. That's why whenever someone is accused of a crime like this, there are scores of people lining up to tell you what a 'good guy' this person is.


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## Sasha (Dec 15, 2008)

> I didn't know there was anywhere that didn't background check their EMTs/Medics. I had to pay for a VECHs back ground check to even get in EMT school. Even so, that only works if they had done it before.





> Disagree. Again, you need to understand your state's reporting system. Criminal arrests can to be reported if you are a licensed professional. In Florida, Baker Acts can also be reported and yes, some professionals will have their license suspended or revoked for having a "bad day".



If someone had never previously comitted a crime, how does a background check work to weed them out?


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## VentMedic (Dec 15, 2008)

BossyCow said:


> That's why whenever someone is accused of a crime like this, there are scores of people lining up to tell you what a 'good guy' this person is.


 
When Dubin was arrested in Florida for his crimes, many rallied behind him just because they read his book.  But as they say, you can't judge a book by its cover.


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## VentMedic (Dec 15, 2008)

Sasha said:


> If someone had never previously comitted a crime, how does a background check work to weed them out?


 
Answer
Quote from previous post


> You need to understand your state's reporting system. Criminal arrests can to be reported if you are a licensed professional. In Florida, Baker Acts can also be reported and yes, some professionals will have their license suspended or revoked for having a "bad day".


 
However, many states do not even have this process in place. Nor, do some have background checks for initial licensure. 

Again, I will use the unfortunate CA as an example. If you committed a crime in one county to where they did pull your license, you just went to another county and applied for a certification. If you held certifications in many counties, you just tried to keep you nose clean in at least one of them. Up to earlier this year there was not a statewide reporting system in place since the responsibility was delegated to the counties. Some counties functioned better than others and some really sucked at policing serious offenses.

If all else failed, you just moved to a state that does not do background checks or does not have a statewide reporting system.


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## Sasha (Dec 15, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> Answer
> Quote from previous post
> 
> 
> ...



You still haven't answered my question. You said it wasn't true that the background checks don't work if you haven't committed a criminal offense.

How does it work then, to weed them out of being hired, if a person has NEVER commited an infraction, criminal offense, had a need to be baker acted, before in their life at the time of being hired? Not everyone who commits a crime has a prior history.


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## rchristi (Dec 15, 2008)

Background checks alone probably won't prevent someone with no prior offenses from getting into EMS. I have seen a suggestion of psychological screening in earlier post and that makes sense. The other thing that might help is periodic repeat background checks. Certain security clearances require a rescreening every 5 years. This would at least catch a few more.
    If all of this sounds excessive, consider how much harder it would be to make a false accusation stick against a profession that rigorously screens and polices itself. Employers might even benefit from lower liability insurance costs.
    I would think that tighter screening and enforcement would make EMS much less attractive to potential predators.


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## VentMedic (Dec 15, 2008)

Sasha said:


> How does it work then, to weed them out of being hired, if a person has NEVER commited an infraction, criminal offense, had a need to be baker acted, before in their life at the time of being hired? Not everyone who commits a crime has a prior history.


 
I don't know how much clearer to make it.

IF YOU COMMIT A CRIME AFTER YOU GET YOUR LICENSE, THE AGENCIES AND ALL WHO KNOW HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO REPORT IT TO THE STATE. IF YOU HAVE A SERIOUS CONCERN ABOUT A CO-WORKER, YOU HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO REPORT IT.

Quote from previous post




> You need to understand your state's reporting system. Criminal arrests can to be reported if you are a licensed professional. In Florida, Baker Acts can also be reported and yes, some professionals will have their license suspended or revoked for having a "bad day".


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## VentMedic (Dec 15, 2008)

rchristi said:


> If all of this sounds excessive, consider how much harder it would be to make a false accusation stick against a profession that rigorously screens and polices itself. Employers might even benefit from lower liability insurance costs.
> I would think that tighter screening and enforcement would make EMS much less attractive to potential predators.


 
That's the right idea.


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## Sasha (Dec 15, 2008)

No need to yell, dearie. Calm down

 It still doesn't address how you are going to PREVENT EMT's and Medics from molesting patients if they have no prior history before the incident. Or are you just gonna tell their alleged victim "Sorry, I know you felt you were molested but hey! At least we have back ground checks so people with prior offenses don't get hired!" 

I like the idea of psychological testing.


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## VentMedic (Dec 15, 2008)

Sasha said:


> No need to yell, dearie. Calm down
> 
> It still doesn't address how you are going to PREVENT EMT's and Medics from molesting patients if they have no prior history before the incident. Or are you just gonna tell their alleged victim "Sorry, I know you felt you were molested but hey! At least we have back ground checks so people with prior offenses don't get hired!"
> 
> I like the idea of psychological testing.


 
Knock off the dearie crap. 

Are you really going to tell me you are this clueless as to what to do if you suspect suspicious behavior from a partner? Or, are you flattered because he made the same sexual remarks to you. And, what some may consider inappropriate touching, you invite it while at work? 

Sit yourself down and read through the Florida Statutes. If that is not enough info for you, go through their website. I also advise you to take a domestic violence class so you understand the reporting laws of the state.


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## Sasha (Dec 15, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> Knock off the dearie crap.
> 
> Are you really going to tell me you are this clueless as to what to do if you suspect suspicious behavior from a partner?  Or, are you flattered because he made the same sexual remarks to you and what some may  consider inappropriate touching, you invite it while at work?
> 
> Sit yourself down and read through the Florida Statutes.  If that is not enough info for you, go through their website.   I also advise you to take a domestic violence class so you understand the reporting laws of the state.



*No need to get insulting.* No, that is NOT what I'm talking about at all. WHat if there is no prior offense, no prior behavior to indicate that the person in question was going to commit such a crime or act? What if there was no indication that your partner was going to go groping a man or woman in the back, and he did one day and was reported by the patient? There is not ALWAYS prior indications that the offender is going to sexually assault or batter a person. What good is your background check then, after the crime is already commited and the person is already lost their license and/or in jail?

That is what I'm talking about! Background checks are NOT going to work as a preventive measure against people with no prior history.


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## VentMedic (Dec 15, 2008)

Sasha said:


> *No need to get insulting.* No, that is NOT what I'm talking about at all. WHat if there is no prior offense, no prior behavior to indicate that the person in question was going to commit such a crime or act? What if there was no indication that your partner was going to go groping a man or woman in the back, and he did one day and was reported by the patient? There is not ALWAYS prior indications that the offender is going to sexually assault or batter a person. What good is your background check then, after the crime is already commited and the person is already lost their license and/or in jail?
> 
> That is what I'm talking about! Background checks are NOT going to work as a preventive measure against people with no prior history.


 
So you are against backgroud checks?  Ever wonder why EMS can not move forward.  We meet more resistance from EMS providers each time some safe guards are introduced that will benefit both the patient and the provider. 

Why are you so against the concept of policing your own?    You don't have to stalk your partner but just be more aware.  If you notice them touching the patients in a way that appears to be groping, whether intentional or not, you might mention it.  They might just be unskilled at assessment and their hands are still moving clumsily.  You may even offer them advice to keep them from getting a wrongful complaint filed.   However, if your work computer is full of child pornography, you may have  a co-worker with a different and more serious problem.

You can't prevent it all but that doesn't mean you can't try.


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## Sasha (Dec 15, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> So you are against backgroud checks?  Ever wonder why EMS can not move forward.  We meet more resistance from EMS providers each time some safe guards are introduced that will benefit both the patient and the provider.
> 
> Why are you so against the concept of policing your own?    You don't have to stalk your partner but just be more aware.  If you notice them touching the patients in a way that appears to be groping, whether intentional or not, you might mention it.  They might just be unskilled at assessment and their hands are still moving clumsily.  You may even offer them advice to keep them from getting a wrongful complaint filed.   However, if your work computer is full of child pornography, you may have  a co-worker with a different and more serious problem.
> 
> You can't prevent it all but that doesn't mean you can't try.



I'm not against background checks. I'm against articles like the one you posted who are in it purely for shock value. If you look at it in perspective, considering the amount of patients transported each year, the amount of sexually related crimes reported each year, and the amount of them that are commited by someone, on or off duty EMS, then it's not as much of a crisis as the article and some posters are making it out to be.

I'm not saying it's acceptable. 

Background checks are lovely, I haven't applied anywhere that didn't use a background AND refrence check. I haven't seen schools that don't require background checks to even enter their program. I was unaware that it wasn't a national requirement to background check people when being hired into the medical field.

I'm not against policing your own, by any means. I'm just being realistic, it's going to happen. The best thing you can do is take appropriate action to ensure that person is not with patients again once they've sexually assaulted or battered a patient, and to educate the public as to what is and isn't approrpriate in a physical exam to prevent false accusations. Also, I think it would be wonderful to get video cameras that record in the back of the trucks, not only could it be helpful in sitatuions like these, but great for QA following a bad call.


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## YYCmedic (Dec 15, 2008)

Sasha said:


> I'm not against policing your own, by any means. I'm just being realistic, it's going to happen. The best thing you can do is take appropriate action to ensure that person is not with patients again once they've sexually assaulted or battered a patient, and to educate the public as to what is and isn't approrpriate in a physical exam to prevent false accusations. Also, I think it would be wonderful to get video cameras that record in the back of the trucks, not only could it be helpful in sitatuions like these, but great for QA following a bad call.



I agree... unfortunately no matter how good a background check is it wont catch the ones whos brains havent popped yet.  I think more EMS services need to start using psychiatric evaluations of candidates like most of the police and fire services use. Even a psychiatric evaluation is not going to catch everyone... it is going to happen. I feel that the article it is purely for shock value, yes it is a problem no matter how many times it happens, but like Sasha said, given the amount of calls and transports that happen each year the problem is not as large as the article makes it out to be. So far this year my service has responded to 88996 calls (as of the end of my last night shift)...not aware of any accusations on anyone thus far!

Also, in our units we already have cameras that record your calls with video/audio and store them for a month in a central archive at HQ incase a call goes bad in any way, be it an accusation of sexual assault or a pt becoming abusive.


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