# Opinion on Age



## sbp7993 (May 14, 2010)

I'm 16 years old, and got my EMT license 2 weeks after my 16th birthday. I volunteer with three ambulance corps, and some people look down upon me because of my age. What is your opinion on a 16 year old (or other young people) being an EMT?


----------



## thatJeffguy (May 14, 2010)

Act professionally, work hard, study frequently and ignore their :censored::censored::censored::censored:.  Its a good time to start learning how to deal with horse:censored::censored::censored::censored: joking that seems to accompany EMS.  Don't be timid, but stay in your place.  Watch 'Gran Torino'


----------



## rescue99 (May 14, 2010)

sbp7993 said:


> I'm 16 years old, and got my EMT license 2 weeks after my 16th birthday. I volunteer with three ambulance corps, and some people look down upon me because of my age. What is your opinion on a 16 year old (or other young people) being an EMT?



Not my choice for a responder but what the heck, you'll last longer than me!


----------



## TransportJockey (May 14, 2010)

Personally I don't think anyone under 18 should be certified (You're not licensed, you are certified as an EMT). And most private services don't hire anyone under 21, so usually it's a moot point


----------



## sbp7993 (May 15, 2010)

jtpaintball70 said:


> Personally I don't think anyone under 18 should be certified (You're not licensed, you are certified as an EMT). And most private services don't hire anyone under 21, so usually it's a moot point



I don't understand how I'm not licensed. I have a card that says I'm licensed.


----------



## sbp7993 (May 15, 2010)

thatJeffguy said:


> Act professionally, work hard, study frequently and ignore their :censored::censored::censored::censored:.  Its a good time to start learning how to deal with horse:censored::censored::censored::censored: joking that seems to accompany EMS.  Don't be timid, but stay in your place.  Watch 'Gran Torino'



Thank you, that's my take on it


----------



## dudemanguy (May 15, 2010)

I think the age should be at least 18, I think thats what it is in most states, what state are you in? Are you NREMT certified?

I can think of no sensible reason why they would allow someone under 18 to be an EMT, or even attend an EMT course. But hey, lots of things about EMS education and certification make no sense to me.

As for people looking down on you, its nothing personal. They simply feel the way we do about the age requirement, and when you are older you will most likely feel the same way.

Also you have to look at it from the patients perspective. If you are having a life or death emergency, do you want doogie howser working on you?


----------



## TransportJockey (May 15, 2010)

sbp7993 said:


> I don't understand how I'm not licensed. I have a card that says I'm licensed.



I'm assuming you are from a state like PA, since east coast seems to be one of the few places I've noticed that lets minors become certified. Using their website as an example, you will be hard pressed to find the word 'license' anywhere. 

And if you are NR, you are not licensed, but certified through them (although IIRC NR doesn't certify anyone below 18).

And that takes out most of my argument. In terms of states, they are almost the same, but license usually implies an actual education. Certification can be vocational. TX is a good example of this for their medics


----------



## sbp7993 (May 15, 2010)

jtpaintball70 said:


> I'm assuming you are from a state like PA, since east coast seems to be one of the few places I've noticed that lets minors become certified. Using their website as an example, you will be hard pressed to find the word 'license' anywhere.
> 
> And if you are NR, you are not licensed, but certified through them (although IIRC NR doesn't certify anyone below 18).
> 
> And that takes out most of my argument. In terms of states, they are almost the same, but license usually implies an actual education. Certification can be vocational. TX is a good example of this for their medics



That's the thing, you cannot be NREMT certified until age 18. I am state licensed. Most states require you to be 18 to be an EMT, but some states allow you to be 16. I went through the same classes as everyone else when I was 15. I had to do the same practicals, and take the NREMT test, the only difference is that I got my state card, and I get my NREMT card mailed to me when I'm 18. 

I can fully function as the EMT in a two person crew. I just am not allowed to spend the night there, or work later than 12 am during the weekdays.


----------



## dudemanguy (May 15, 2010)

You have actually worked on an ambulance doing 911 calls in which it was just you and one other EMT? What state is this?

I find this amazing.


----------



## Shishkabob (May 15, 2010)

As long as it meets the states age requirements, I'm not against it.  Here in Texas, the minimum is 18 to be any of the 4 levels of EMS credential.


----------



## lightsandsirens5 (May 15, 2010)

Linuss said:


> As long as it meets the states age requirements, I'm not against it. Here in Texas, the minimum is 18 to be any of the 4 levels of EMS credential.


 
Same here. As long as the 16 yo is mature enough, let 'em at it. I know plenty of 16 year olds who are more mature than lots of 25 and 30 year olds. It totally depends on the person.


----------



## Tincanfireman (May 15, 2010)

You have a lot to prove, not just because of your age, but because of your shiny new card.  You need to be on time, show up with a clean uniform and decent looking footwear. You need to be that person who is first out the door to wash the rigs, check out the spare unit(s), and do the food run.  You're not the station slave, but initiative and enthusiasm will carry you far.  Keep your mouth closed and your ears open. When you do have something to say, you don't need to use expletives to get your point across; keep the gutter language where it belongs. Believe me, it doesn't impress people nearly as much as you think it does.  Acceptance will come slowly, but it will come.  Wait for it and don't expect a thing.  Most importantly, you're 16; leave time for all the good things that go with being your age and don't spend every waking moment at the station.  Best of luck...


----------



## ZVNEMT (May 15, 2010)

I don't have too much of a problem seeing a 16 y/o working ems. obviously not as a driver, but i see no harm in allowing a young adult to do non-emergent transport. maybe occasionally throw them a bone and let them run a 911 with 2 other medics to keep their interest.


----------



## ExpatMedic0 (May 15, 2010)

Anyone who has personal objections with you being an EMT needs to look down upon your state and not you. You are well within your states EMS standards. So If anyone gives you any guff tell them to take it up with the state. I would then mention the fact that there are 17 year olds fighting a war right now. I know because I have done both at both ages.

I started EMS when I was around your age. You can not be an EMT until your 18 in my state, but I joined an EMS explorer program, got my first responder and started observing on ride alongs. I would encourage you to do the same as a volunteer EMT. Learn from the guys who are willing to share there experience with you. Be eager to learn and willing to learn diffrent methods or ideas of doing things from others. 

In a way you have a huge advantage right now by getting a head start on experience. If you find you like EMS you could easily be a Paramedic with atleast an AAS before your old enough to drink if you want. If you burn out on it mid career you still have a ton of time to retrain and change careers. I am 28 now and I have only been a medic 18 months, but I have been an EMT for close to 8 years. My only regret was wasting so much time as an EMT and not getting my medic sooner.

PS: some states do licence there Paramedics and use that term instead of certification (unsure about EMT's) and it does not always mean higher education. It really is a state to state choice. California for example is a prime example of less education but gives out a licence.


----------



## Sandog (May 15, 2010)

And here I am worried about starting at the age of fifty. Fortunately my mortgage is paid and I have a descent savings account. I still have that med card thing to worry about(blood pressure) but I digress. I salute any young person of 16 years that has already found a passion and has made the steps to carry through. 

Good for you...


----------



## Aidey (May 15, 2010)

I went through EMT class before I turned 18, so I've been there myself. 

My thoughts now are that in the US someone under 18 years of age isn't considered responsible enough to be an adult and take care of themselves. Given that, I don't think anyone under the age of 18 should be able to be certified or licensed in any field where they are responsible for the safety and well being of other people. Be it EMT, CNA, FF, police officer, etc.


----------



## DrParasite (May 15, 2010)

dudemanguy said:


> You have actually worked on an ambulance doing 911 calls in which it was just you and one other EMT? What state is this?
> 
> I find this amazing.


New Jersey and Pennsylvania let 16 year olds on the ambulance, and New York lets 16 year old first responders on the ambulance as well.  Not all that hard to comprehend.

Maryland lets 16 year olds get certified as firefighter and enter burning buildings.  talk about amazing.


----------



## Trayos (May 15, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> New Jersey and Pennsylvania let 16 year olds on the ambulance, and New York lets 16 year old first responders on the ambulance as well.  Not all that hard to comprehend.
> 
> Maryland lets 16 year olds get certified as firefighter and enter burning buildings.  talk about amazing.


They also follow the two in-two out rule with a fervor, junior FF do not get paired up with other junior FF in a situation.


----------



## emtstudent04 (May 15, 2010)

Im not going to lie i dont think being 16y/o is really an appropriate age to be in care for patients. Im sure there are those mature 16y/o but i just can't see a 16y/o putting in an appropriate care for a patient. The things you see and the people who you deal with i dont think a 16y/o could handle. I can just see a patient who is in there 70's looking at a 16y/o being like your way to young to be taking care of me, but i guess at the sametime some elderly PT's would be like your doing a good thing we need more people like you. I dont know to me most companies it would be a huge maturity factor and insurance liability.


----------



## piranah (May 15, 2010)

i started at 18 and am now a medic at 20...dont worry just work hard


----------



## Veneficus (May 15, 2010)

I think you guys seriously overestimate what care an EMT provides.

EMTs provde CPR. CPR is taught to scouts at a much younger age.

EMTs assist with taking medications prescribed by a physician. Patients take those medications without the help of an EMT. Anyone can buy over the counter medications. 

EMTs control bleeding by noninvasive measures. So do scouts, so do life guards, babysitters, and a host of young people.

EMTs can splint potential fractures. Again, people are taught considerably more dangerous skills than that. How old were you when you first shot a gun? I was 9. 

EMTs administer Oxygen, which is a drug. Of course we can't get many paramedics to do it properly so what is the harm in letting an EMT do it?

EMTs immobolize people on spineboards. So do life guards. (usually around 14) and just like life guards, they immobilize just about everyone, called for or not. Older EMTs are not exempt from this behavior.

EMTs assisst more advanced practicioners by doing exactly what they are told. Doesn't take much to do exactly what you are told. (look at the rules for enlisting in the military if a parent will sign for a minor, it is quite shocking)

EMTs assess whether a patient has an airway, is breathing, and has a pulse. Both the assessment and interventions are taught in CPR. 

Being an EMT is not synonomous with working on an ambulance. There are healthcare facilities, amuzement parks, camps, red cross activities, and a host of other positions an EMT fills. Let's go back to life guard. Starting age 14. Imagine that a 16 y/o with 120 more hours of education. staggering... 

Driving an ambulance: Most insurance agencies won't cover a 18 year old driving an emergency vehicle, in most states it is illegal to drive without insurance. Do you really think any organization is going to purposefully hire a 16 year old and violate the law. Use your head.

In no state that I am aware of does a minor work independantly on an ambulance. They must be accompanied by somebody of equal or greater certification who is legally an adult. Now working on an ambulance is dangerous. If you are going to be killed in EMS it is likely that it will be a traffic accident. But it will then be the fault of the adult driving without due regard for the safety of the crew or bystanders. Adults who even today do not want to even hear that the whole "emergency" response does more harm than good. 

Next time you get on a roller coaster, ask how old the operator is. 

About now somebody will say something completely ignorant like: "they might be traumatized by what they see." That trauma is directly related to being sheltered from the realities of life. which includes witnessing death. Inevitably some will be traumatized, but those same people would be truamatized by the event if they were 18, 21, 26, or 50. 

I don't have the space here in 15,000 characters to type out all of the harsh realities children much younger than 16 witness and navigate everyday. It is not a mystery why they don't wind up completely wrecked. Just like it is no mystery why people who do wind up wrecked do. I am more than willing to discuss it though.   

I have also heard the issues about sexual harassment of younger providers. I don't condone or accept it, but it is no more prevalent and I am willing to bet less so that say being involved in afterschool or sunday bible study... The band, the choir, the drama club, or even getting some "private help" from the teacher. Mature adults understand that adolescents are sexually maturing and active. Those same mature adults keep their hands to themselves and do not reciprocate the advance. a smart person, no matter how mature, avoids any act that could even be remotely considered improper. Especially are careful to avoid a "He said...She said..." situation. Sexual harassment also works both ways. If the minor is behaving improperly for a professional environment, then they need to be disciplined for it like any other employee would be. 

"The material is too hard." The rest of the world shouldn't be held back because some people find mastering 900 pages of 8th grade text difficult. We don't say children cannot be world class athletes, actors, or any host of activities that could put them at risk or in harms way. 

The OP has completed the same standards as any EMT in the US today. The OP is now your junior collegue, (possibly even your superior by education) they are entitled to the same you are. Which is not being told they shouldn't be in the profession for whatever reason you can dream up.


----------



## NJnewbie (May 15, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> About now somebody will say something completely ignorant like: "they might be traumatized by what they see." That trauma is directly related to being sheltered from the realities of life. which includes witnessing death. Inevitably some will be traumatized, but those same people would be truamatized by the event if they were 18, 21, 26, or 50.


  Well said!  We expect people barely out of high school to go off to war and I'm sure what they see there is far worse than anything they'd see riding on an ambulance in their town (depending on where they live).  As long as the person is qualified and has the maturity, I don't care how old they are.  I know people in their 50's who act like they're 18 and 18 year olds who are very mature.  Don't look at their age, look at the person.  



Veneficus said:


> I don't have the space here in 15,000 characters to type out all of the harsh realities children much younger than 16 witness and navigate everyday. It is not a mystery why they don't wind up completely wrecked. Just like it is no mystery why people who do wind up wrecked do. I am more than willing to discuss it though.


  I'd like to discuss this because it's something I've always wondered about.  Probably need to start a new thread though.


----------



## sbp7993 (May 15, 2010)

veneficus said:


> The op has completed the same standards as any emt in the us today. The op is now your junior collegue, (possibly even your superior by education) they are entitled to the same you are. Which is not being told they shouldn't be in the profession for whatever reason you can dream up.



couldn't agree more. Thank you!!


----------



## dudemanguy (May 15, 2010)

The overwhelming majority of states in the US(like 46 out of 50) dont allow someone to work as an EMT before the age of 18 for a REASON. In fact a LOT of reasons.

Do I really need to list those reasons?

As for someone bringing up the military. Last time I checked 16 year olds arent allowed to enlist, and EMT's dont have a sergeant barking orders at them, you need self discipline and maturity in EMS.

That's great some 16 year olds are more mature than others, but it's not like theres some magical maturity litmus test. At 16 your brain is not fully developed, especially the pre frontal cortex, the part responsible for planning,  judgement and risk assessment.

Is there really some EMT shortage in new jersey to the point they need to rely on child labor?


----------



## emt_irl (May 15, 2010)

im 21 now, got my nq-emt(the u.s's nremt) when i was 20 and i did find it very hard to get anyone to take me seriously but eventually they will see that you know your stuff and are serious about ems. i can understand why they may be a bit concerned but thats neither here nor there, you passed the exam and prooved yourself.


----------



## Shishkabob (May 15, 2010)

dudemanguy said:


> The overwhelming majority of states in the US(like 46 out of 50) dont allow someone to work as an EMT before the age of 18 for a REASON. In fact a LOT of reasons.
> 
> Do I really need to list those reasons?



Oh yes, please do list those reasons.  

The only reason I can think up that those states do that is because it's the same age someone is considered an emancipated adult, able to do 98% of the things older adults can.

PS-- Minors can join the US military at 17.



If it is seen as normal for people my and piranhas age, at 21 and 20, to be Paramedics in charge, with the drugs that we have and damage we can do, why can a 16 year old not assist?  I can BARELY drink, and piranha still can't.


----------



## Veneficus (May 15, 2010)

dudemanguy said:


> Do I really need to list those reasons?



Sure. But it needs to be more than supposition. Otherwise we can go back and forth on farm labor, ranch labor, menenite lumber mills, teenage sailors circumnavigating the globe, junior ROTC, civil air patrol, junior seamen, SAR teams, explorer programs, pilots, and the like.

How about taking/sending teenaged missionaries to disaster zones or third world countries? Not against the law in any state. Certainly more dangerous than being an EMT. 

I think by making it the age of majority it just simplifies the legal ramifications. Then you don't need excess laws about having to work under an adult, staying at the station past midnight, etc. You can also just use national registry certification and don't have to maintain extra State administration. 

I think you are not seeing that in states that allow teenage EMTs, the teengers are not operating independantly, they are performing skills under supervision. (But EMT skills are so mundane than even if it was independant, it wouldn't matter so strict is the oversight on EMTs)

But just because something is made simple doesn't mean you are preventing some potential tragedy.

I like the lifeguard example because a complete water environment is incompatible with human life. In the "reach, throw, row, go" mentality somebody as young as 14 is expected to enter a hostile environment where somebody is already in need of rescue after every better option has failed. Talk about a safety nightmare.

"Gloves on scene safe..." totally precludes that same risk for an EMT.

Infectious diseases? My favorite. Not being an EMT totally precludes a teenager from contracting hepatitis B/C, HIV, HPV, CMV, HSV, MRSA, TB, and every other one you can think of.  (sarcasm)



dudemanguy said:


> As for someone bringing up the military. Last time I checked 16 year olds arent allowed to enlist, and EMT's dont have a sergeant barking orders at them, you need self discipline and maturity in EMS.



Are you suggesting that a 17 year old is considerably more mature than a 16 year old? If the parents sign, the kid goes to the infantry. Talk about natural selection... 

Self discipline and maturity. Like a martial artist? An olympic figure skater or gymnast? A musician or other performing artist? A 4.0 average student? One who has perfect attendance? How about any amateur athlete?

I guess the evolution of the species whereby younger organisms are more suitable to the environment than the older organisms is lost. 

Not to mention the use of collective experience, which is unique to Homo Sapiens, and is our specie's greatest assest. Even more so than being able to manipulate our environment.  



dudemanguy said:


> That's great some 16 year olds are more mature than others, but it's not like theres some magical maturity litmus test. At 16 your brain is not fully developed, especially the pre frontal cortex, the part responsible for planning,  judgement and risk assessment.



That prefrontal cortex doesn't get in the way way of raising a child. Shall I list the countries girls are married with kids by 14? It wasn't that long ago in the US. (or in some compound in Texas or Arizona) How about an emancipated minor by pregnancy? The same prefrontal cortex also doesn't mature until 27+ years so should we raise the age of majority to say 30? 18 year olds can vote. That can have far more ipact on peoples' lives than an EMT. 

If you like the soldier anaology, how often do old soldiers get awarded the same citations for "heroism" that younger ones do? speaking of which, there are several nations fielding both male and female child soldiers. (as well as suicide bombers) You can't measure right or wrong in another society using the values of your own. 

I am more than willing to having a debate on chronological age used to determine social maturity vs. biological maturity. I can even detail the use of science and pseudoscience to reinforce social predudices. (like a prefrontal cortex argument)

We could even consider the sociological value of child labor.

Or how about the energy of reproduction in Western society as a reason to increase age requirements to secure home range resources to maintain the qulity of living standards in such a society?

No offense intended, but that prefrontal cortex argument is rather thin. We could look at the ability of children and teens to retain and use information which is infinitely better than adults and say they are capable of learning more faster and therfore can make better decisions if we base off of volume of information available. 




dudemanguy said:


> Is there really some EMT shortage in new jersey to the point they need to rely on child labor?



I don't think it is a shortage, I think being an EMT so that simple a high school student could do it proficently. It requires very little critical thinking and no medical education. It is far less than the vocational highschools that allow students to obtain an LPN. (LVN whatever you lke to call it) EMT is a skills based vocation, no different than driving a car, pounding nails into wood, laying bricks or pipe or working on a farm. It requires only 120 hours of skill instruction. Less than that of a cosmetologist or barber. 

Is there some insight about being an EMT I haven't figured out or been privy to?   

You really want a brain teaser? In european highschool education, the last 2 years are equivalent course work to a sophmore level in a US college. That directly equates that a highschool school graduate has a higher level of education than a US paramedic. (ouch)


----------



## piranah (May 15, 2010)

well said Linuss....i can admin narcotic meds but i cannot drink a beer legally...makes a lot of sense i know


----------



## Veneficus (May 15, 2010)

piranah said:


> well said Linuss....i can admin narcotic meds but i cannot drink a beer legally...makes a lot of sense i know



Wanna trade 

kidding...


----------



## piranah (May 15, 2010)

lol... im sorry...my fragile young mind couldn't handle the trauma of that situation lolol..


----------



## JPINFV (May 15, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> I like the lifeguard example because a complete water environment is incompatible with human life. In the "reach, throw, row, go" mentality somebody as young as 14 is expected to enter a hostile environment where somebody is already in need of rescue after every better option has failed. Talk about a safety nightmare.



You know what's funny about that? At a water park, the life guards can be 14. However, the ride operators (the employees who tell you to cross your arms, cross your ankles, and when to go down the slide) have to be at least 15 y/o because of how the rides are categorized.


----------



## sbp7993 (May 15, 2010)

dudemanguy said:


> Is there really some EMT shortage in new jersey to the point they need to rely on child labor?



I don't consider what I do child labor, I am a VOLUNTEER. I enjoy doing it!


----------



## Cclearly3 (May 15, 2010)

emtstudent04 said:


> Im not going to lie i dont think being 16y/o is really an appropriate age to be in care for patients. Im sure there are those mature 16y/o but i just can't see a 16y/o putting in an appropriate care for a patient. The things you see and the people who you deal with i dont think a 16y/o could handle. I can just see a patient who is in there 70's looking at a 16y/o being like your way to young to be taking care of me, but i guess at the sametime some elderly PT's would be like your doing a good thing we need more people like you. I dont know to me most companies it would be a huge maturity factor and insurance liability.



I totally understand where you're coming from. I'm 19 and starting paramedic school earlier than any of the older EMTs are. I just got a new job working at an ambulance service and am really excited. The occasional "sweetheart" and "honey" still irks me sometimes, but you have to show them that you can't be broken down easily and that you can handle ANYTHING. Don't do anything stupid and use your age to your advantage while at the same time maintaining professionalism. Good luck to ya, kid.


----------



## fortsmithman (May 16, 2010)

piranah said:


> well said Linuss....i can admin narcotic meds but i cannot drink a beer legally...makes a lot of sense i know



LIke the words to Barry Maguires Eve of Destruction.
"Old enough to kill but not for voting"


----------



## Trayos (May 16, 2010)

I would think there are quantifiable measures that could be taken to determine aptitude for EMS in junior members- such as acceptable grades, physical condition, legal record, etc. Add in some ride-alongs, and a clear outlining of what is to be expected, and you have the capacity to train a new member from the ground up.


----------



## CAOX3 (May 16, 2010)

sbp7993 said:


> I'm 16 years old, and got my EMT license 2 weeks after my 16th birthday. I volunteer with three ambulance corps, and some people look down upon me because of my age. What is your opinion on a 16 year old (or other young people) being an EMT?



This is just my opinion.

Honestly? 

Not my kids.  They can make employment decisions all they want when they reach eighteen.  Up until then I make them and they wont be anywhere near an ambulance or fire truck.  Hell if I have say in the matter they will never see the inside of an ambulance.

I have spent enough time in EMS to understand its no place for a sixteen year old.  Hell Im not sure its any place for an eighteen year old.

Nothing personal but we cant institue rules based on the exception and you are probably the exception as far as maturity level.  If they allow you they have to allow everyone and whos going to babysit the sixteen year old who hasnt matured?

Im sure you will make a great EMT/medic someday and Im sure you know your stuff but thats only half the the job its an uncontrolled enviorment to many variables. 

Sorry the risks are too great.


----------



## MrBrown (May 16, 2010)

Personally (and I think most ambos here would agree with me) preference is on working with a crew partner who is a little older and generally has a good dose of life experience.


----------



## Shishkabob (May 16, 2010)

MrBrown said:


> Personally (and I think most ambos here would agree with me) preference is on working with a crew partner who is a little older and generally has a good dose of life experience.





Naw, I like a partner who does their job well.


----------



## dudemanguy (May 16, 2010)

I guess I'll take another stab at this one. 

Heres a few reasons why I think its not a good idea to have 16 year olds working as EMTs(a view shared by like 47 of 50 states and nearly the entire industrialized world).

In most cases a 16 year old is a minor. An EMT couldnt even treat him unless it was implied consent or a parent gave permission, but you want a minor working as an EMT? Someone that age is not even legally responsible for providing and caring for themselves, you want them to be held legally responsible for the medical care of another person?

I think a 16 year olds main focus should be on education. They have their whole life to work, in EMS or whatever else they choose, so what's the rush? Enjoy being a kid while you can. If you want some spending cash go wash dishes or work in something that doesnt involve life or death decisions. If you want to prepare for a career in medicine, focus on doing well in math and science and take whatever health care related classes and training you can.

It's totally unnecessary and impractical. As already stated no one would let him drive an ambulance, which significantly limits his usefulness as an EMT. In addition child labor laws would have to be followed regarding when and how long he could work.

The fact ONE 16 year old is mature and level headed enough to do it doesnt mean most are, how are you going to decide which are and arent, again there is no litmus test. If the state decides 16 year olds can work as EMTs, that means ALL 16 year olds who pass an EMT course can do it, and as we know the quality of EMT courses varies wildly.

Many patients would be uncomfortable having a 16 year old kid treating them, so were going to add to their stress level and discomfort why?

EMS is not a structured environment, an individual EMT can find himself in a situation where he/she is making life or death decisions for others with no one looking over their shoulder, ESPECIALLY in a situation outside of an ambulance service. 

Ok someone brought up the military again, as if the military and EMS are somehow related. Anyway what the military does supports what I'm saying if anything. The US military DOES NOT allow 16 year olds, regardless of maturity level, to enlist. Yes in RARE cases you will have a 17 year old ship for bootcamp prior to turning 18, when I served they still had to have a HS diploma. And to be honest I also think thats a bad idea, so Im consistent.

So theres a list, I'm sure I could continue. Is the sky going to fall because NJ allows some kids to possess an EMT certification they cant really use? Not really. But whats the point of even allowing it?


----------



## EMS*Princess (May 16, 2010)

*Lucky!!!*

I'm 16 and would LOVE to go ahead and get my cert- but Ohio won't let me <_<  And yes, before anyone asks, I am immensely more responsible than your average teenager


----------



## sbp7993 (May 16, 2010)

dudemanguy said:


> I guess I'll take another stab at this one.
> 
> Heres a few reasons why I think its not a good idea to have 16 year olds working as EMTs(a view shared by like 47 of 50 states and nearly the entire industrialized world).
> 
> ...



First of all, I don't understand why everybody is thinking that I am doing this for money! I AM A VOLUNTEER EMT! I do it because I like the medical field, and want to be a doctor someday. This is not child labor. 

Secondly, people seem to think that I am not as useful because I don't drive the ambulance, half of the EMTs at my corps do not drive. They are the EMTs that provide care to the patient. The easy way out of this situation is working with a partner who prefers to drive. 

Thirdly, everybody continues to say that maturity is a problem. There are plenty of 18 year old people who act half as mature as I do. Is there a true difference between being 17 or 18? Everybody is implying that an 18 year old is so much more mature than a 16 or 17 year old, and they have a right to work or volunteer on an ambulance. 

Fourthly, my education is my main concern. I have great grades, i speak three languages, and take a lot of honors and AP classes. My parents only let me VOLUNTEER on the ambulance if my grades don't drop. Before I became an EMT, they even initially told me that I would have to drop out of EMT class if my grades dropped.

Lastly, I do have a social life, and still enjoy being a kid. I do a ton of extracurriculars, and even have my black belt in Tae Kwan Do.


----------



## sbp7993 (May 16, 2010)

Also, I don't live in New Jersey.


----------



## Fox (May 16, 2010)

sbp7993 said:


> I'm 16 years old, and got my EMT license 2 weeks after my 16th birthday. I volunteer with three ambulance corps, and some people look down upon me because of my age. What is your opinion on a 16 year old (or other young people) being an EMT?



You're 16. Live your life a little, don't burn out on working, volunteering, and school. You have time to do those things, but don't let them make your life right now.

Not saying don't do it, but just don't burn yourself out, either.


----------



## Fox (May 16, 2010)

sbp7993 said:


> First of all, I don't understand why everybody is thinking that I am doing this for money! I AM A VOLUNTEER EMT! I do it because I like the medical field, and want to be a doctor someday. This is not child labor.
> 
> Secondly, people seem to think that I am not as useful because I don't drive the ambulance, half of the EMTs at my corps do not drive. They are the EMTs that provide care to the patient. The easy way out of this situation is working with a partner who prefers to drive.
> 
> ...



Maturity is a problem at 16. Not saying you aren't mature, but think about it this way. At 18 you've experienced more than at 16, at 21, even more. You haven't had a chance to live out certain things, you haven't even lived by yourself yet, or had to support yourself, pay bills, and go to school. I'm not saying you can't handle that either... but maybe when people say you don't have maturity they mean that you haven't experienced things other people have yet. There is a certain maturity/knowledge you gain as you grow older. I didn't see it at 16 either, but now that I'm 25 I can't believe how incredibly naive I was then. (I was really, really naive, not saying you are.) 

Experience your life, volunteer if you want. There is still time to figure things out. Don't worry so much about your age.


----------



## dudemanguy (May 16, 2010)

sbp7993.....Im not necessarily talking about you specifically. I'm just giving my opinion about states allowing someone to be an EMT before 18. I'm also not criticizing you. You're not doing anything wrong or breaking any laws. 

I was just surprised, in my state the age is 18 and I just assumed it was like that everywhere, its not that big a deal.

As other people said EMT basics generally arent allowed to do much and therefore cant screw much up. But its still not like flipping burgers or washing dishes, and theres always the potential to wind up in a situation where your actions can save someones life or have serious consequences.


----------



## MrBrown (May 17, 2010)

sbp7993 said:


> Also, I don't live in New Jersey.



What, is something wrong with New Jersey?


----------



## CAOX3 (May 17, 2010)

This is why children dont work in EMS.

http://www.emsnetwork.org/artman2/publish/bodily-assaults.shtml


----------



## TransportJockey (May 17, 2010)

OP, keep in mind you DID ask this question. Remember that if you're getting upset at some of hte answers you get back


----------



## Eydawn (May 17, 2010)

I became a first responder at the age of 16. I got my EMT at the age of 18. I am now 23. 

Yes, there are DEFINITE differences between the ages. It's simple biology in addition to psychology- your brain is still growing and maturing during your teenage years.  I was also a precocious, mature-for-age teenager. I can tell you right now that I process things a lot differently now than I did then, and I thought I was capable of a lot more during my teenage years than I really was. 

There are select 16, 17, 18 year olds who can function well in prehospital EMS. I can tell you right now, they are in no way the majority. From the psychological standpoint alone, our society has programmed in an "extended adolescence" mentality, and even those who ARE mature for age (or consider themselves to be so) are subject to those thinking patterns. 

Do I think teeners have no place in EMS? No. I do, however, have an issue with them working independently with the responsibilities of a primary EMT. I think anyone under the age of 18 should operate in a 3 man crew, with two over-18s as their crew-members. 

You may be cognitively there with the skills, you may be an excellent stick with IVs, you may backboard like nobody's business- but the judgment that comes with matured processing and integrated life experience is irreplaceable. You should not be solely responsible for a patient's welfare at any point. 

That's my humble opinion. I did not have that opinion when I was 17. I do now. 

Wendy
CO EMT-B


----------



## emtstudent04 (May 17, 2010)

I just think being 16 is way to young for someone to be in care for a Pt. I can just see it now a little 16y/o kid does a ride along with ALS see's a female around his age or even in there 20's or 30's and the female Pt is a trauma and they take her shirt and bra off and he gets all excited and gets immature and starts talking with all his freinds about it. Ya the girl may have a nice body (figure) but i could just see a little 16y/o running to all his friends talking about it or smiling in the back of an ambulance trying not to laugh because there all excited.


----------



## Trayos (May 17, 2010)

emtstudent04 said:


> I just think being 16 is way to young for someone to be in care for a Pt. I can just see it now a little 16y/o kid does a ride along with ALS see's a female around his age or even in there 20's or 30's and the female Pt is a trauma and they take her shirt and bra off and he gets all excited and gets immature and starts talking with all his freinds about it. Ya the girl may have a nice body (figure) but i could just see a little 16y/o running to all his friends talking about it or smiling in the back of an ambulance trying not to laugh because there all excited.


Then the 16 year old should be in EMS. There is a time, and a place.


----------



## emtstudent04 (May 17, 2010)

Trayos said:


> Then the 16 year old should be in EMS. There is a time, and a place.



Why should a 16 y/o be in ems if he is going to be immature? Your going to tell me you couldn't see that happening?


----------



## thatJeffguy (May 17, 2010)

emtstudent04 said:


> I just think being 16 is way to young for someone to be in care for a Pt. I can just see it now a little 16y/o kid does a ride along with ALS see's a female around his age or even in there 20's or 30's and the female Pt is a trauma and they take her shirt and bra off and he gets all excited and gets immature and starts talking with all his freinds about it. Ya the girl may have a nice body (figure) but i could just see a little 16y/o running to all his friends talking about it or smiling in the back of an ambulance trying not to laugh because there all excited.




A sixteen year old *might* do this, but so *might* a fifty year old. 

Arbitrary numbers shouldn't be used to exclude individuals from this profession, maturity and ability should be.  Obviously that would exclude great gobs of current "providers" (and I use the word loosely), so it won't happen.

Most states don't allow a person provide care until they are 18yoa, so it's really a moot point.  Let the kid take the EMT-b class, let him ride along for two years and develop his skills.

Frankly, for someone with your abysmal spelling and grammar to call into question the maturity of someone else, especially to provide the level of "care" standard to -b's, is hypocritical and almost farcical. No offense intended, just calling them how I see them.


----------



## emtstudent04 (May 17, 2010)

Whats wrong with my spelling and grammer?

For two- Im not immature, yes i do have my moments just like everyone else in this lovely world, but for the most part i consider my self very mature when it comes to the EMS world. I'm strictly professional when it comes to that. I also hold my self to a high standard in EMS and i expect the same from other EMS personnel. Not that it's always going to happen, but still.

For Three- I believe that i do give the "care" and attention the patient's deserve. Not to be cocky or sound self centered but i have received a lot of excellent re-mark's from patient's and other EMS personnel. Sorry not trying to get defensive.


----------



## thatJeffguy (May 17, 2010)

emtstudent04 said:


> Whats wrong with my spelling and grammer?



They suck   No offense intended, just saying that different people have different perceptions of maturity.  We had to cut the clothes off of a rather beautiful and quite well-stacked young lady before.  I guarantee you that every set of eyes on the rig did at least ONE "visual inspection" for flail chest / open phenothorax.  Patient care was not compromised.  No numbers were exchanged.



> For two- Im not immature, yes i do have my moments just like everyone else in this lovely world,



Exactly, everyone has moments of immaturity and bouts of childish humor.  What's going to make a 16 year old more likely than a forty year old? Some girl from New Zealand, sixteen herself, just sailed solo around the world.  Some forty year olds I know couldnt' be trusted to watch a goldfish, let alone a patient.



> but for the most part i consider my self very mature when it comes to the EMS world. I'm strictly professional when it comes to that. I also hold my self to a high standard in EMS and i expect the same from other EMS personnel. Not that it's always going to happen, but still.


Agreed there.  If someone acts like an immature ****, they get called out (post-patient transfer, of course).  



> For Three- I believe that i do give the "care" and attention the patient's deserve. Not to be cocky or sound self centered but i have received a lot of excellent re-mark's from patient's and other EMS personnel. Sorry not trying to get defensive.


Don't be defensive, I'm sure you're a great provider.  Wouldn't you be upset if I said that since you misspelled one word that you're "immature" and incapable of providing patient care?  That's probably how the sixteen year old feels.  Give him a chance, see what happens and be prepared to help him cross some maturity bridges on his own.


----------



## sbp7993 (May 17, 2010)

jtpaintball70 said:


> OP, keep in mind you DID ask this question. Remember that if you're getting upset at some of hte answers you get back



I'm not getting upset, I'm just stating my opinion like everybody else was. Everybody is entitled to think what they want  But reality is, I am allowed to volunteer on the ambulance if I want to because it is 100% legal for me to do so in my state.


----------



## sbp7993 (May 17, 2010)

MrBrown said:


> What, is something wrong with New Jersey?




haha no i was just saying i don't live there. ^_^


----------



## emtstudent04 (May 17, 2010)

(thatJeffguy) Don't be defensive, I'm sure you're a great provider.  Wouldn't you be upset if I said that since you misspelled one word that you're "immature" and incapable of providing patient care?  That's probably how the sixteen year old feels.  Give him a chance, see what happens and be prepared to help him cross some maturity bridges on his own.[/QUOTE]

I see what your saying by helping him/her crossing some maturity bridges, but im not there to baby sit/take care of an immature 16/17 y/o telling them you can't be doing that, stop acting like that. I'm sorry but im not going to be their daddy. I'm there to help patients who are sick/injured. I'm sure with experiance he or she could do a fine job, but for this type of work and the patients you come across can be and are very difficult at times to deal with.


----------



## TransportJockey (May 17, 2010)

MrBrown said:


> What, is something wrong with New Jersey?



Actually yes, many things


----------



## sbp7993 (May 17, 2010)

emtstudent04 said:


> I just think being 16 is way to young for someone to be in care for a Pt. I can just see it now a little 16y/o kid does a ride along with ALS see's a female around his age or even in there 20's or 30's and the female Pt is a trauma and they take her shirt and bra off and he gets all excited and gets immature and starts talking with all his freinds about it. Ya the girl may have a nice body (figure) but i could just see a little 16y/o running to all his friends talking about it or smiling in the back of an ambulance trying not to laugh because there all excited.



I know some 18 year olds and 20 year olds that would do the same thing.


----------



## emtstudent04 (May 17, 2010)

sbp7993 said:


> I know some 18 year olds and 20 year olds that would do the same thing.



True, and if that does happen they should not be in this field. That's unexceptable behavior.


----------



## wolfwyndd (May 18, 2010)

If a 16 year old can pass the LICENSING requirements for the state that they live in to become an EMT, I don't see anything wrong with it.  I think veneficus put it best.  They teach all those skills to people YOUNGER then 16, what does it matter that an EMT is only 16?  As long as they can pass the state standard.


----------



## Trayos (May 18, 2010)

emtstudent04 said:


> Why should a 16 y/o be in ems if he is going to be immature? Your going to tell me you couldn't see that happening?


If the immature behavior has a result that impacts the situation, then it is completely inappropriate. And if the pt. has to be exposed in the first place, there is probably something more pressing that will attract attention.


----------



## firetender (May 18, 2010)

*About Crawling Into Others' Boxes*



sbp7993 said:


> What is your opinion on a 16 year old (or other young people) being an EMT?



I'm sorry, but sixteen is entirely too young to participate in EMS.

Joan of Arc was *SEVENTEEN *before she led the French Army into war! 

At sixteen she was still immature because all she could handle was building allies in the court of France that would eventually put her in charge of three decisive battles in the One Hundred Years War.

(Although she literally burned out at 19; I predict a happier ending for you.)

I worked a lot with Explorer Scouts, starting at 16 y.o. who were quite capable then and, in fact surpassed in maturity AND ability to respond MANY of my partners. Some went on to be sterling career medics.

If you as a sixteen year old have the inspiration and DRIVE to put up with the negative BS here about ability having a number, then that says something about WHO you are.

No, I wouldn't put you in charge of a serious situation, but just like the rest of us, _*Something *_will put you in charge, over your head, and you'll have to do the best you can.

Blessings and Good Fortune!


----------



## Shishkabob (May 18, 2010)

emtstudent04 said:


> True, and if that does happen they should not be in this field. That's unexceptable behavior.



Why?  How is that any worse than anyone here speaking of CPR stories?  Or saying that they had a pretty cool call last shift that they got to run?  It makes us bad people to speak of our experiences because someone else suffered?




So long as the person is professional in dealing with public, who the hell cares about what they tell their friends?  I guarantee you've told a cool EMS story to someone you know.


----------



## Trayos (May 18, 2010)

firetender said:


> I'm sorry, but sixteen is entirely too young to participate in EMS.
> 
> Joan of Arc was *SEVENTEEN *before she led the French Army into war!
> 
> ...


+1
Good stuff.


----------



## yankeefan213 (Jan 11, 2011)

I am a 16 y/o EMT-B in NJ. I agree with the idea of 16 year olds with maturity and judgement being the exception rather than the rule, but (to stereotype) going off to college and joing a frat and doing all the crazy s*** associated with that doesn't exatly demonstrate great maturity either 

I believe that the way my volunteer corps handles its under 18's (you must be 16 to take the class in NJ) is terrific. As soon as you get your state certification, all new members go on probationary status for 6 months (which is where I am now). Since under 18s must be the third person on the crew (driver and full over 18 EMT), they essentially get two years experience before being tossed out on their own, which is much better than the mere 6 months the over 18s get. 

I am fortunate. On my usual shift I ride with a very experienced (30 yrs+) EMT. After the first few shifts (I guess she has seen so many newbes that she can read them pretty quick) she has essentially let me run all of the calls we are on. We split up the work, and she teaches as I experience things for the first time, but, as long as my decision won't adversly affect pt care, she essentially lets me decide what we are doing. And if I make a poor call (like I would do if she--or any other EMT--did) she says to me, "Hey we gotta do it this way because..." And if I realize that I am over my head (haven't done something before etc) I have the confidence in myself to say "Hey partner I need some help. What should we do here?" So after I turn eighteen in two years, I will have had two years of experience running calls, making me a better EMT than I would have been had I been 18 when I took the class.

Incidentally, here you need to be 19.5 to be a driver, so no issues with 16y/o drivers here. 

Finally, this is not child labor in my opinion. I am VOLUNTEERING and I find it quite rediculous that the government has stuck its nose into my business telling me I can't be dispatched after midnight. BULL**** Having three people on a crew (especially when the driver is not an EMT) vastly improves quality of care, no matter the age of the provider. How much maturity does it take to hold a 5x9 on a boo boo?


----------



## MrBrown (Jan 11, 2011)

Brown strongly believes that the better Ambulance Officers are those who are a bit older, perhaps in thier mid twenties who have gone out into the world and gotten some life experience first.

You would be hard pressed to find somebody in the Ambulance Service here, in Australia or the UK who disagrees.


----------



## usafmedic45 (Jan 11, 2011)

> I am a 16 y/o EMT-B in NJ. I agree with the idea of 16 year olds with maturity and judgement being the exception rather than the rule, but (to stereotype) going off to college and joing a frat and doing all the crazy s*** associated with that doesn't exatly demonstrate great maturity either



I agree with you to a point but then again, it is the fact that you do stupid crap and live to figure out to not try that again that is what matters.  



> Since under 18s must be the third person on the crew (driver and full over 18 EMT), they essentially get two years experience before being tossed out on their own, which is much better than the mere 6 months the over 18s get.



Honestly, regardless of age, no one should be turned fully loose as a BLS provider without at least several months of clinical preceptorship beyond what is required for the credential.  For ALS, it honestly should be more like at a very minimum a year (in a very busy service) or two to three years.  



> I am VOLUNTEERING and I find it quite rediculous that the government has stuck its nose into my business telling me I can't be dispatched after midnight.



Volunteer or not, you're still an employee so the rules are the same.  As for the after midnight rule, just remember the rules are not written for the best and brightest.  They are written for the malevolent, stupid and dense amongst us.  



> How much maturity does it take to hold a 5x9 on a boo boo?



It's not necessarily the maturity to do procedures that matters.  My daughter will be six later this year and can do almost every first aid skill that a Basic EMT would be allowed to do.  

Where maturity and inner resilience becomes a huge factor is the ability to see humanity at its absolute worst and still keep functioning both in the short term (getting through the call) and the long term (not burning out or blowing your brains out because of cumulative wear and tear).  99.99% of kids are not able to do that.   Hell, most people my age (30) struggle to do that under 'normal' stress.

I've been in your shoes (teenage EMS provider) and what I am speaking is from experiences myself and my friends have had.  Very few people are mentally capable of having their best friend die quite literally in front of them and still function, most certainly if the folks in question are still growing up.  This happened to me when I was 19 and it nearly destroyed me.  In a lot of ways it did.  It has taken me many years to get past it.  When you're not even legally allowed to drink a beer and you have a Viet Nam SF veteran comment that if he didn't know better he would swear you had seen too much combat, that's a good indicator that you've seen because you're staring through him him (what they call the "thousand yard stare"), you realize you've seen too much way too fast. 

It sucks to hear it repeatedly said that there will always be trauma so just be patient, but that is fairly sound advice for your wellbeing.


----------



## yankeefan213 (Jan 11, 2011)

MrBrown said:


> Brown strongly believes that the better Ambulance Officers are those who are a bit older, perhaps in thier mid twenties who have gone out into the world and gotten some life experience first.
> 
> You would be hard pressed to find somebody in the Ambulance Service here, in Australia or the UK who disagrees.


 
I don't entirely disagree; certainly life experience helps. But where do you get that experience? You have to go out and do things and if being the third man on an EMT crew doesn't give you that experience to be a better EMT in your 20s, what will?


----------



## yankeefan213 (Jan 11, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> I agree with you to a point but then again, it is the fact that you do stupid crap and live to figure out to not try that again that is what matters.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

I have to say that here again I agree. I cannot say that I have seen, or will ever hope to see, what you have seen. For that you have my sincere respect. I certainly hope that tomorrow or the next day someone will press the magic button and there will be peace on Earth, but for now I will deal with the reality that is before me. I have no choice but to be patient and wait and let reality unfold, but it is of course human nature to want control over yourself, and I resent certain rules and regs, as I am sure everyone has at some point. But like you said, there will forever be the malevolent, stupid and dense.


----------



## Jay (Jan 11, 2011)

What I find most funny about this post is that I joined the Navy when I was 17 and was selected to work in Naval Reactors/Nuclear Propulsion. The real ironic part is that most of us that went into that program were well under 21 years of age and about as fresh as fresh meat gets. Once I went out into the fleet itself, I experienced all kinds of four letter words being thrown at me by disgruntled sailors with many years on me who thought that I simply had my rank given to me. You learn to build a thick skin which takes you far in life may it be the military or business or EMS. 

Bottom line is that I was there and I have learned, use this as a time to learn and really enjoy what you like doing while your dreams are still fresh and before the weight of the world has had an opportunity to crush them because one day that chance will vanish. 

Also use this as an opportunity to not only learn but to develop a thick skin because the more that you mature into a young adult, the harder it will become and if you do plan on going into medical school, the stress will only get harder. You have an amazing opportunity at hand to learn about something you like, do it and finally shine over people twice your age in a very short period of time if the learning lessons are applied properly.

Good luck!


----------



## yankeefan213 (Jan 11, 2011)

Jay said:


> What I find most funny about this post is that I joined the Navy when I was 17 and was selected to work in Naval Reactors/Nuclear Propulsion. The real ironic part is that most of us that went into that program were well under 21 years of age and about as fresh as fresh meat gets. Once I went out into the fleet itself, I experienced all kinds of four letter words being thrown at me by disgruntled sailors with many years on me who thought that I simply had my rank given to me. You learn to build a thick skin which takes you far in life may it be the military or business or EMS.
> 
> Bottom line is that I was there and I have learned, use this as a time to learn and really enjoy what you like doing while your dreams are still fresh and before the weight of the world has had an opportunity to crush them because one day that chance will vanish.
> 
> ...


 
Thank-you for the encouragement.


----------



## usafmedic45 (Jan 11, 2011)

> But where do you get that experience? You have to go out and do things and if being the third man on an EMT crew doesn't give you that experience to be a better EMT in your 20s, what will?



I have what my students used to call my "95/5 rule":
95% of EMTs are in the profession because of 5% of the calls (GSWs, MVCs, bad MIs, etc)
The 5% of us that stay in the field more than about 10 years are sustained by the 95% of the calls.  

A large swath of what we do has nothing to do with technical skill and this is where a lot of us lose sight of what actually "makes a difference".  I could teach a monkey to be a basic EMT if given sufficient time.  What differentiates a good EMT from a truly great one is not so much their technical abilities but the ability to truly deal effectively with and empathize* with patients of all ilks.  Both of those skills have to be gained through life experience and not necessarily the type that comes from clinical exposure.  

The reason I mentioned the 95/5 rule is because 95% of cases the patients are going to judge your care based on how you treated them and not on what you did to them.  I've never met a 17 year old EMT who can even begin to fathom how to comfort a woman who just lost her husband or the parents of a dead child.  

*- Note:  I use 'empathize' for a reason.  Sympathy (feeling sorry for someone) is not often a good thing in clinical medicine.  Empathy (feeling for someone) is essential.  Feeling sorry for someone does no good for them and can cloud your judgement faster than almost anything.


----------



## yankeefan213 (Jan 11, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> I have what my students used to call my "95/5 rule":
> 95% of EMTs are in the profession because of 5% of the calls (GSWs, MVCs, bad MIs, etc)
> The 5% of us that stay in the field more than about 10 years are sustained by the 95% of the calls.
> 
> ...


 
Very good point and you will get no arguement from me here. When I naively started the process to become certified in April or May last year, I thought that I was in this for the blood and guts as well, but I have come to realize in my limited experience that empathy and the ability to comfort the patient is probably the most valuable skill there is, not because it saves the most lives, but because it does the most good.


----------



## Jay (Jan 11, 2011)

yankeefan213 said:


> Very good point and you will get no arguement from me here. When I naively started the process to become certified in April or May last year, I thought that I was in this for the blood and guts as well



I have only been blood soaked once in the last year. I too thought that it was going to be a bloodier trade but was not looking forward to the bleeders. My biggest concern was being able to learn enough to help no matter what the situation and even with massive amount of continuing education as well as field experience I seem to learn something new every call or every class. 



yankeefan213 said:


> I have come to realize in my limited experience that  empathy and the ability to comfort the patient is probably the most  valuable skill there is, not because it saves the most lives, but  because it does the most good.



There is no reason why someone cannot start learning these skills at 15 or 17 because I know a lot of 30 and 40 year old's that have a hard time commanding these skills. The key to empathy is life experience and one starts gaining that when they are born, a 16 year old under stress is far from taking the lead to talk to someone who has just lost a relative but they can learn, we all learn, everyday. Besides, even those who can council someone who just lost a spouse or a child, they may have experienced death but in most cases not the same way... Is this truly empathy? Just a thought.


----------



## MrBrown (Jan 11, 2011)

yankeefan213 said:


> I don't entirely disagree; certainly life experience helps. But where do you get that experience? You have to go out and do things and if being the third man on an EMT crew doesn't give you that experience to be a better EMT in your 20s, what will?



With the modal shift towards Degree based external education there has been an influx of younger Officers into the ambulance service.  Before that Ambulance Officers came from a variety of backgrounds far and wide but they were all in thier mid to late twenties and older.  Brown knows ex truck drivers, paint salesmen, pilots, nurses, mechanics, school teachers and all sorts of people who left to become an ambo.

The introduction of the Degree means that younger people including school leavers are now being accepted.  Brown thinks its more the person concerned than thier list of experiences however believes strongly those with more life experience relate much better to people and are able to handle some of the things seen in the role.


----------



## DesertMedic66 (Jan 11, 2011)

That seems weird to me. I just took the national registry last month and it said you have to be at least 18 to take the test. Also, at least for California, you have to have your national card with you when applying for state and county ,which you also have to be 18. No national card no state card was to be issued. And also just to sign up for the EMT class you had to be at least 18 years old. That's how it is in California at least. But doesn't make sence about the national registry card or even letting you take the test at 16 yrs.


----------



## usafmedic45 (Jan 11, 2011)

> But doesn't make sence about the national registry card or even letting you take the test at 16 yrs.



That's the issue with not having a single standard for credentialing.  Granted, I don't think the NREMT exams are nearly difficult enough but its the best we have at the moment.


----------



## lampnyter (Jan 11, 2011)

Ive been on the truck since i was 16. Dealing with patients, doing CPR, the whole 9 yards.


----------



## medic4798 (Jan 11, 2011)

Tincanfireman said:


> You have a lot to prove, not just because of your age, but because of your shiny new card.  You need to be on time, show up with a clean uniform and decent looking footwear. You need to be that person who is first out the door to wash the rigs, check out the spare unit(s), and do the food run.  You're not the station slave, but initiative and enthusiasm will carry you far.  Keep your mouth closed and your ears open. When you do have something to say, you don't need to use expletives to get your point across; keep the gutter language where it belongs. Believe me, it doesn't impress people nearly as much as you think it does.  Acceptance will come slowly, but it will come.  Wait for it and don't expect a thing.  Most importantly, you're 16; leave time for all the good things that go with being your age and don't spend every waking moment at the station.  Best of luck...



Well Stated..! I will add that you will soon run into other provider's that think it's cool to have a "been there, done that" type attitude. Please don't let them suck you into that. It's dangerous. EVERY call is different, and you'll learn soon enough that when you let your guard down..you will promptly get burned. Good luck!


----------



## bahnrokt (Jan 11, 2011)

Good for you.  If medicine is something you want to get into as an adult, dont let anyone give you :censored::censored::censored::censored: over becoming an EMT at 16.  

Work hard, keep your head down, AVOID STATION POLITICS AND NO SEX IN THE BACK OF THE RIG.


----------



## medicRob (Jan 11, 2011)

I haven't read anything other than the original post, and really don't intend too. 

That being said, I don't really have an opinion one way or the other at this point, not because I am for or against, but rather because here in TN, our equivalent basics have to be 18 to enter the program as they must take the NR. Furthermore, I'd imagine it is a nightmare for HPSO and other Malpractice insurance providers (which is another reason we dont let anyone under 18 in class, because our lowest level is i/85 and has to log a certain amount of IV starts)... 

On July 1, 2011 Tennessee will be effectively allowing individuals at the age of 17 to take the first responder exam. I think that would be a good program to teach in high school to introduce students to EMS. 

As far as the limited scope of the EMT-B goes, here are a few issues I can think of: 

1. Insurability (Both to practice and to drive)
2. Labor laws
3. The lack of judgement the majority (not all) of individuals below the age of 18 (really 21) possess.


----------



## usalsfyre (Jan 11, 2011)

bahnrokt said:


> ...NO SEX IN THE BACK OF THE RIG.



Or the Champagne Room for that matter. 

I rode an ambulance starting at 17 as an assistant, but was not certified till 18. There's worse things for a 16 or 17 year old to be doing. That said, I'm not sure I'd reccomend it either.


----------



## usafmedic45 (Jan 11, 2011)

> NO SEX IN THE BACK OF THE RIG



Well...just don't get caught.  LOL


----------



## Seaglass (Jan 12, 2011)

Seconding pretty much everything Vene said. I don't accept the idea that the current literature on PFC development in adolescents generalizes beyond typical college kids. Give me some studies on PFC development that sample adolescents who've been at war, raising families, or whatever at the same age that show the same results. Until then, I won't accept that the PFC suddenly developing right around the time adult responsibilities are typically assumed is a total coincidence. 



emtstudent04 said:


> I just think being 16 is way to young for someone to be in care for a Pt. I can just see it now a little 16y/o kid does a ride along with ALS see's a female around his age or even in there 20's or 30's and the female Pt is a trauma and they take her shirt and bra off and he gets all excited and gets immature and starts talking with all his freinds about it. Ya the girl may have a nice body (figure) but i could just see a little 16y/o running to all his friends talking about it or smiling in the back of an ambulance trying not to laugh because there all excited.



Because we know that all older providers have totally outgrown their creeper phase...


----------



## lampnyter (Jan 12, 2011)

I dont see whats wrong with a 16 y/o being on the truck. Thats when i started and a bunch of my friends that are now medics started.


----------



## mint_condition (Jan 12, 2011)

i think that age is only a number, and there will be some 16 y/o that can hadle it,and some that cant. its more of a judgement call to me, that's better than being stereotypical about it and saying that all 16 y/o are immature.


----------



## medicRob (Jan 12, 2011)

mint_condition said:


> i think that age is only a number, and there will be some 16 y/o that can hadle it,and some that cant. its more of a judgement call to me, that's better than being stereotypical about it and saying that all 16 y/o are immature.



I agree. My main issue would be related to insurability for practice as well as to drive.. the premiums for a 16 year old driver are through the roof in most cases. I would imagine that the insurance an ambulance service carries for its vehicles has a policy that requires all drivers to be 18 or older. Moreover, in most situations, you want the Paramedic in the back. Also, if the malpractice insurance of the service will not cover an 18 year old, the individual is screwed anyways.


----------



## spike91 (Jan 12, 2011)

Personally I'm surprised they let me get behind the wheel of a car when I was 16, god only knows the dumb sh*t I would've done if they gave me an EMT Card. But more power to you. I'm still a teenager, and I've learned to know what I don't know and admit it; nothing like talking big and getting caught with your pants down. Never be afraid to ask for help and just do your thing. And ignore anyone else who tells you otherwise. As long as the sh*t you get is in good fun, roll with it, and ignore the rest.


----------



## lampnyter (Jan 12, 2011)

In the city next to mine the ambulance service is ALL high school students. The school has an ambulance docking station and if there is a call they leave class.


----------



## medicRob (Jan 12, 2011)

lampnyter said:


> In the city next to mine the ambulance service is ALL high school students. The school has an ambulance docking station and if there is a call they leave class.



Where is this at? I have never heard of any service in the US like this. I'd be interested in reading up on this and finding out how they deal with the red tape regarding insurability, etc.


----------



## lampnyter (Jan 13, 2011)

http://www.post53.info/


----------



## jjesusfreak01 (Jan 13, 2011)

lampnyter said:


> http://www.post53.info/



I'll summarize. The Darien EMS service is comprised of adult volunteers who provide A-EMT level service when needed in QRS vehicles, young adult EMT-Bs who have been members of the service since 14 and certified as EMTs at 16, and paramedic response when needed from a nearby fire station. 

All basic calls will have at least 1 experienced EMT on board, intermediate calls will have 2 EMTs and an A-EMT, and Paramedic level calls will have at least 2 EMTs, a Paramedic, and an A-EMT.

During school hours the adult volunteers staff the first response ambulance instead of their QRS vehicles, and if a second unit is needed the on call students are paged out from school to respond.


----------



## emt seeking first job (Jan 16, 2011)

*I commend the original poster.*

Instead of hanging out at the mall, playing video games, he is doing something adult and productive.

He is gaining experience. He works with someone 18 and over. He is part of an organization. 

It is not as if his entire service is a bunch of 16 year olds. He is a 16 year old member of an adult organization and he is better off there than most places 16 year olds end up.

What about a 33 year old playing video games in his moms basement.

I just caution him to choose his off-duty teenage friends very carefully. Ask your family to rent you the movie " A Bronx Tale"...........


----------



## FutureRescue (Jan 16, 2011)

I personally congratulate anyone who has a definite career picked out at that age. I am 23 and am just figuring out what I am doing. Kudos to you kid.

As far as age goes, I am ok with it as long as the teen exemplifies strong knowledge and professionalism as a typical adult would. Yes, we do have our moments of immaturity as well, but we do know there is a time and a place for that.

Keep your head up high and continue to do as you do, and you will be fine. At the end of the day you have helped more people than most people do in a life time. That's what it is all about: helping. Good luck!


----------



## Youngin (Jan 17, 2011)

Cclearly3 said:


> I totally understand where you're coming from. I'm 19 and starting paramedic school earlier than any of the older EMTs are. I just got a new job working at an ambulance service and am really excited. The occasional "sweetheart" and "honey" still irks me sometimes, but you have to show them that you can't be broken down easily and that you can handle ANYTHING. Don't do anything stupid and use your age to your advantage while at the same time maintaining professionalism. Good luck to ya, kid.



You don't like being called "honey" or "sweetheart"? Make sure you stay above the Mason-Dixon line.


----------



## Soco_and_Lime (Jan 17, 2011)

How in the hell do you think it's ok to operate a BLS unit when only one of the two people can drive? I'm not even getting started on the duties of an EMT. 

Even if 16 year olds can drive in your state, there's no way in hell they should be behind the wheel of a mobile medical facility that has the authority and capability to disregard traffic laws. 

If they CAN'T drive, it's beyond me how you can operate a crew with one driver, dedicating the 16 year old to patient care regardless of the nature of the call.


----------



## JPINFV (Jan 17, 2011)

Soco_and_Lime said:


> How in the hell do you think it's ok to operate a BLS unit when only one of the two people can drive? I'm not even getting started on the duties of an EMT.


Operationally, it's not that much of a problem actually. 




> Even if 16 year olds can drive in your state, there's no way in hell they should be behind the wheel of a mobile medical facility that has the authority and capability to disregard traffic laws.


True, but the same can be said about a lot of EMTs and paramedics over the age of 18. 



> If they CAN'T drive, it's beyond me how you can operate a crew with one driver, dedicating the 16 year old to patient care regardless of the nature of the call.


I can't argue with this.


----------



## usafmedic45 (Jan 17, 2011)

> True, but the same can be said about a lot of EMTs and paramedics over the age of 18.



Not to mention that most states don't allow ambulances to "disregard" traffic lights, speed limits, etc.  In every state I have worked in, if you crash, you're still guilty of the pertinent offenses because the "exemptions" to traffic laws allowed for emergency vehicles come with a caveat to the effect "with due regard for the safety of the vehicle, its occupants and other persons exposed to the vehicle."  Basically, as long as nothing goes wrong, you're OK.  If it does, you're going to have some "'splainin' to do".


----------



## medicRob (Jan 17, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> Not to mention that most states don't allow ambulances to "disregard" traffic lights, speed limits, etc.  In every state I have worked in, if you crash, you're still guilty of the pertinent offenses because the "exemptions" to traffic laws allowed for emergency vehicles come with a caveat to the effect "with due regard for the safety of the vehicle, its occupants and other persons exposed to the vehicle."  Basically, as long as nothing goes wrong, you're OK.  If it does, you're going to have some "'splainin' to do".



We are allowed in certain situations to disregard certain traffic laws, but I am so paranoid of other drivers anyways (There are a lot of idiots out there in plain vehicles that disregard traffic laws), that I will stop at red lights, look both ways (I do not trust mirrors when driving). Contrary to popular belief, if a patient's condition is so severe that 60 seconds at a red light is going to mean the difference between life and death, they are gone.. because definitive care of the trauma patient is usually surgery, and there is no surgeon in the back of that ambulance that can perform surgery on the way.


----------



## JPINFV (Jan 17, 2011)

^
Then again, that's why I drive with the understanding that physcs doesn't care about who has the right of way. I'd rather not be in an accident at all then be the non-fault party of an accident.


----------



## Seaglass (Jan 17, 2011)

Soco_and_Lime said:


> If they CAN'T drive, it's beyond me how you can operate a crew with one driver, dedicating the 16 year old to patient care regardless of the nature of the call.



I'm not finding information on whether they typically respond with crews of two. Maybe they run with more? 

Anyways, to be a BLS crew in some places, you only need one trained driver and one trained EMT. You can have an EMT who can't drive, and a driver who's just a first responder, and still be legal. 

I assume it must be legal for 16-year-olds to be sole care providers in CT, too.


----------



## Hannah.911 (Jan 17, 2011)

I became an EMT when I was 19 years old. (started school at 18.) I don't regret getting involved with EMS so young, but I do regret my attitude. Young EMT's need to remember that while we have a lot of the same education as our older coworkers, we have SO much less _experience_. And I'm not talking about EMS experience, I just mean life experience in general. We need to listen and learn as much as we can from our older counterparts, as long as we can. When I first got my NREMT cert and my GA EMT license, I thought that I was near equal with everyone else that wore my badge...That's a really bad attitude to have when the ink is still drying on your highschool diploma and your EMT card. I'm almost 22 now and I'm still learning everyday!


----------



## usafmedic45 (Jan 18, 2011)

> You can have an EMT who can't drive, and a driver who's just a first responder, and still be legal.



Not in all states.


----------



## Seaglass (Jan 18, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> Not in all states.



Hence the "in some places" part of that sentence.


----------



## Aidey (Jan 18, 2011)

jjesusfreak01 said:


> I'll summarize. The Darien EMS service is comprised of adult volunteers who provide A-EMT level service when needed in QRS vehicles, young adult EMT-Bs who have been members of the service since 14 and certified as EMTs at 16, and paramedic response when needed from a nearby fire station.
> 
> All basic calls will have at least 1 experienced EMT on board, intermediate calls will have 2 EMTs and an A-EMT, and Paramedic level calls will have at least 2 EMTs, a Paramedic, and an A-EMT.
> 
> During school hours the adult volunteers staff the first response ambulance instead of their QRS vehicles, and if a second unit is needed the on call students are paged out from school to respond.




I'm sorry, but no. From the website:



> The boys' room has five beds, stacked into bunks with madras sheet  covers. The girls are housed on the opposite side of the building, where  six polka-dot decorated bunks are clustered in a bedroom. The boys are  not allowed in the girls' hallway, and the girls are not allowed in the  boys' area.



If rules like this are necessary it makes me wonder if the group is really mature enough to be doing what they do.

A little more research also proves that this area is extremely affluent, with individual families donating ambulances recently. There is no reason that this area should not have full time 24/7 Paramedic service. As things are there right now apparently all Paramedic service is mutual aid from the next city over. 

I'm going to stop here, so not to totally hijack the thread but yeah...


----------



## cb3ofus (Jan 18, 2011)

I agree with you.  I wish I had started when I was very young instead of 41.  My brain worked alot better than it does now not to mention the old body.  I believe if you work hard and show maturity you will be trusted.  Just show them their perceptions of you are wrong.


----------



## Seaglass (Jan 18, 2011)

Aidey said:


> If rules like this are necessary it makes me wonder if the group is really mature enough to be doing what they do.



I always wonder whether rules like that are more for the parents' comfort, or because there's actually been history that would warrant them.


----------



## Bullets (Jan 18, 2011)

Seaglass said:


> I always wonder whether rules like that are more for the parents' comfort, or because there's actually been history that would warrant them.



i agree, this seems for as a PR move then anything, and those that work overnights and staff buildings, your telling me that the 30 year olds dont get intimate with coworkers of the opposite sex at the places you worked? isnt the whole "there is no sex in EMS" kind of a big joke?

And as an additional point, i think what they have going on in Darien is a very neat idea and a great way to bring the right kind of people into a field that needs the kind of energy and drive that younger providers, with the guidance of experienced members, can bring.


----------



## JPINFV (Jan 18, 2011)

Bullets said:


> i agree, this seems for as a PR move then anything, and those that work overnights and staff buildings, your telling me that the 30 year olds dont get intimate with coworkers of the opposite sex at the places you worked? isnt the whole "there is no sex in EMS" kind of a big joke?



Statutory rape. 
Child endangerment.


----------



## Bullets (Jan 18, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> Statutory rape.
> Child endangerment.



what?


----------



## usafmedic45 (Jan 18, 2011)

> If rules like this are necessary it makes me wonder if the group is really mature enough to be doing what they do.



You know the military does exactly the same thing right?  Speaking as one of the few people in our technical school that was allowed to violate that rule.  I would like to take this chance to say thank you to whomever thought I was a good choice for the "chapel guide" and that letting me be responsible for "supporting the moral, mental, social and religious welfare of your fellow airmen" (to quote the letter of commendation I was given for my service) was a great idea.  



> isnt the whole "there is no sex in EMS" kind of a big joke?



Based on personal experience, I can attest that it's a huge joke with no basis in fact.  Of course, in those cases, everyone was above the age of consent.


----------



## JPINFV (Jan 18, 2011)

Bullets said:


> what?



Statutory rape: General term to describe the unlawful sexual intercourse where one or both parties are below the age of consent, and thus unable to be a legally consenting partner. Two 18 year olds going at it in an ambulance? Perfectly legal, if not against the rules of the company and disgusting. A 17 and a 15 year old? Welcome to PMITA prison. 

Child endangerment: Adults allowing kids to undertake illegal activities (I guess contributing to the delinquency of a minor would be a better law than endangerment).


----------



## Bullets (Jan 19, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> Statutory rape: General term to describe the unlawful sexual intercourse where one or both parties are below the age of consent, and thus unable to be a legally consenting partner. Two 18 year olds going at it in an ambulance? Perfectly legal, if not against the rules of the company and disgusting. A 17 and a 15 year old? Welcome to PMITA prison.
> 
> Child endangerment: Adults allowing kids to undertake illegal activities (I guess contributing to the delinquency of a minor would be a better law than endangerment).



I am aware of what those laws are, I just think  that anytime you put opposite sex in a building, working close together with lots of down time, the probability exists that people are going to knock boots. Its not the sole provinceof the young. Clearly the squad in Darien is doing something with their kids. The website stresses that these providers are young adults, and by treating them like they are adults they are more inclined to act in a responsible manner. I think its a great concept that seems to work for them


----------



## JPINFV (Jan 19, 2011)

I'm not arguing that it's solely the province of the young, just that the equation for juveniles is more than slightly different because of those two issues.


----------



## Aidey (Jan 19, 2011)

Aidey said:


> If rules like this are necessary it makes me wonder if the group is really mature enough to be doing what they do.





usafmedic45 said:


> You know the military does exactly the same thing right?  Speaking as one of the few people in our technical school that was allowed to violate that rule.  I would like to take this chance to say thank you to whomever thought I was a good choice for the "chapel guide" and that letting me be responsible for "supporting the moral, mental, social and religious welfare of your fellow airmen" (to quote the letter of commendation I was given for my service) was a great idea.



One could also argue that many members of the military are not mature enough to be doing what they do, and are essentially forced into maturity by necessity. Although the level of maturity achieved is debatable when you have soldiers taking fingers as trophies, along with a number of other highly questionable behaviors. 



Bullets said:


> And as an additional point, i think what they have going on in Darien is  a very neat idea and a great way to bring the right kind of people into  a field that needs the kind of energy and drive that younger providers,  with the guidance of experienced members, can bring.



Ok, I'll say it. I think it is a great way for a bunch of very rich people to indulge their kids. Look up Darien, CT, it is a very wealthy area that could more than afford a full Paramedic ambulance service. The more I looked into it the more the whole thing came off as something to give privileged kids a unique activity to make themselves look good on their college applications. Frankly, stuff like this just undermines EMS as a profession and it pisses me off that anyone thinks it is appropriate that pre-hospital care is being administered by teenagers. I don't care if they are fine upstanding members of the community that all get 100% on their EMT tests. 

People want the most advanced hospitals, they want a variety of specialists, they want the best medical care available, but yet in this case they are willing to limit themselves to basic pre-hospital care when they could more than afford better service. That is not ok in my book. 

And yes, I am aware they have a mutual aid contract with the next city over for Paramedic care, but they don't respond to every call.


----------



## Bullets (Jan 19, 2011)

Aidey said:


> Ok, I'll say it. I think it is a great way for a bunch of very rich people to indulge their kids. Look up Darien, CT, it is a very wealthy area that could more than afford a full Paramedic ambulance service. The more I looked into it the more the whole thing came off as something to give privileged kids a unique activity to make themselves look good on their college applications. Frankly, stuff like this just undermines EMS as a profession and it pisses me off that anyone thinks it is appropriate that pre-hospital care is being administered by teenagers. I don't care if they are fine upstanding members of the community that all get 100% on their EMT tests.
> 
> People want the most advanced hospitals, they want a variety of specialists, they want the best medical care available, but yet in this case they are willing to limit themselves to basic pre-hospital care when they could more than afford better service. That is not ok in my book.
> 
> And yes, I am aware they have a mutual aid contract with the next city over for Paramedic care, but they don't respond to every call.



The kids dont respond alone, they always have an adult with a higher level of training with them.

Also, yes, paramedics dont respond to every call, because they are not needed for every call, thats why they are contracted. Their call volume isnt so substantial to warrant a dedicated medic service. this also opens the whole medic v basic on calls issue, which is neither here nor there


----------



## TransportJockey (Jan 19, 2011)

Bullets said:


> The kids dont respond alone, they always have an adult with a higher level of training with them.
> 
> Also, yes, paramedics dont respond to every call, because they are not needed for every call, thats why they are contracted. Their call volume isnt so substantial to warrant a dedicated medic service. this also opens the whole medic v basic on calls issue, which is neither here nor there



Really? There's a call volume requirement to warrant ALS response? I bet we have less calls here and we manage to have a paid Almost exclusively ALS (EMT-I and EMT-P) service in one of the poorest counties in my state.


----------



## lampnyter (Jan 20, 2011)

Well since i know about Darien post 53 from first hand experience, Darien is a VERY small town that gets about 2 calls a day if they are lucky.


----------



## Veneficus (Jan 20, 2011)

jtpaintball70 said:


> Really? There's a call volume requirement to warrant ALS response? I bet we have less calls here and we manage to have a paid Almost exclusively ALS (EMT-I and EMT-P) service in one of the poorest counties in my state.



I find that the need for ALS is usually inversly proportional to the average wealth of the community.


----------



## TransportJockey (Jan 20, 2011)

Veneficus said:


> I find that the need for ALS is usually inversly proportional to the average wealth of the community.



I agree, especially since a lot of the poorer communities are in a more rural area that can benefit from ALS more than Urban systems


----------



## TransportJockey (Jan 20, 2011)

lampnyter said:


> Well since i know about Darien post 53 from first hand experience, Darien is a VERY small town that gets about 2 calls a day if they are lucky.



VERY small? Wow. If they're very small what is Pecos? We have maybe 7500 people currently living in town.


----------



## JPINFV (Jan 20, 2011)

Since people were commenting on how they get paramedics earlier, according to their website, it's not mutual aid, but contracted work. So, on the bright side, even if they aren't consistently using paramedics constantly, at least they are paying for it still.


----------

