# High Winds and NOT RESPONDING?



## Jon (Oct 27, 2012)

Hey folks,

At what point does your service stop responding to calls in winds/storms/etc?
Any firm guidance?


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## STXmedic (Oct 27, 2012)

Never...


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 27, 2012)

We don't get hurricane winds here but we do get fairly strong winds. 

If we don't feel safe at anytime responding code 3 then we can downgrade.


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## TransportJockey (Oct 27, 2012)

I respond in winds up to 70mph gusting... would be higher but we don't see much higher here in NM...


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## Medic Tim (Oct 27, 2012)

If the conditions are deemed dangerous(usually a severe snow/ice storm or flood where I work) we will only be asked to respond to serious calls(Charlie/Delta) but if at any point we feel it is not safe we are not required to respond and will do so as soon as it is safe to do so. Our safety is the priority. Our dispatch is constantly in contact with other agencies(DOT, Fire, Police, EMO, etc,) Dispatch will usually be up staffed* and they are constantly checking in on the people who have called 911. If it is serious our medical director or an alternate will speak directly to the pt/caller. 

*We have 1 central dispatch for all ambulances. We are the only ambulance service(government run). We run a province wide SSP and in bad weather roadside posts are put on hold.


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## shfd739 (Oct 28, 2012)

At 50mph sustained winds we stop responding. Arent supposed to go thru standing water more than halfway up the tires. Snow and ice havnt stopped us yet- just slowed it down.


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## mycrofft (Oct 28, 2012)

*Good thread!*

Wind is the common element no one plans for; elsewise they would scrap depending always/only upon popups and tents. 

I was at a conference in Sacramento in 2005 (the first of only two "annual" "national" conferences held here/there) at which everyone and their neighbors brought their mobile command post, plus a couple helicopters and a pumper or three.

We had a freak windstorm blow up, sustained at a little lover 20 mph and gusting over 45 mph. All the helos left very closely followed by the trucks. Soon the shiney new mobile command post were packing it up. (At the end of the day, only the "Noah's Wish" animal organzation was still in  place, God love 'em). If a little wind causes you to pick up your ball and glove and go home, what kind of emergency response org *are* you?


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## NomadicMedic (Oct 28, 2012)

Sustained 40mph/gusts of 60 put us in a no response mode.


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## Jon (Oct 28, 2012)

Hmm. Guidance I've seen is that SUV-type responders are safe up until 60 or 60 MPH winds. Ambulances shouldn't be out in anything more than 50.


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## NomadicMedic (Oct 28, 2012)

It's more of a visibility issue. Blowing sand/water/leaves are more dangerous than the actual winds. Our squads are pretty stable in the wind.


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## abckidsmom (Oct 28, 2012)

Jon said:


> Hmm. Guidance I've seen is that SUV-type responders are safe up until 60 or 60 MPH winds. Ambulances shouldn't be out in anything more than 50.



That's what we go by too.  When I worked in a city with high bridges, we stopped bridge crossings at 40-50 mph, and stopped response all together at 60-70 ish?


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## mycrofft (Oct 28, 2012)

Wind  and ambulance.

Hmmmm.









versus


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## citizensoldierny (Oct 28, 2012)

Sustained gusts over 60 and no response


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## Tigger (Oct 28, 2012)

We have no numbers, crew feedback to field supervisors determine when responses stop. 

My inbox has been bombarded as of late with our "storm operational procedures" and that is one of them.


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## EMDispatch (Oct 31, 2012)

A little late to this, but our county policy for Fire and EMS has now been set at 60 mph sustained winds. At that point we will not dispatch responders, but we will notify them of the pending call. In the event of a water rescue the speed limit is set at 35 mph. 
Additionally we assign an automatic assist engine  on all medical calls in storm conditions ( usually from about 12 hrs before the hurricane to when roads have been declared clear). In our extreme flood prone area, a 5 ton national guard truck and crew are assigned  to them for assistance and response.


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## SloEd (Nov 26, 2012)

We stop responding when the Ambulance tips over, or when we say its not safe for us to go.


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## mycrofft (Nov 26, 2012)

mycrofft said:


> Wind is the common element no one plans for; elsewise they would scrap depending always/only upon popups and tents.
> 
> I was at a conference in Sacramento in 2005 (the first of only two "annual" "national" conferences held here/there) at which everyone and their neighbors brought their mobile command post, plus a couple helicopters and a pumper or three.
> 
> We had a freak windstorm blow up, sustained at a little lover 20 mph and gusting over 45 mph. All the helos left very closely followed by the trucks. Soon the shiney new mobile command post were packing it up. (At the end of the day, only the "Noah's Wish" animal organzation was still in  place, God love 'em). If a little wind causes you to pick up your ball and glove and go home, what kind of emergency response org *are* you?



OK had a little refresher on this at Spartan Race nine days ago. Not only rain  on an unpaved clay surface, but sustained winds around twenty and gusts near thirty, coming INTO an open 40 ft tent. WInd effects inside were not that bad other than rain intruding about five feet, but the whole structure wanted to lift and billowed all three walls.

During a lull (e.g. before the hypothermia patients started coming in) I was expounding with the ambulance company's crew chief about windy ops, and he said he did not like the new Sprinter-class ambulances due to great side-loading by winds, and especially when they made a sudden turn from the direction of the wind to across it.


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## Fish (Dec 24, 2012)

Sustained over 50mph


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## Tigger (Dec 24, 2012)

mycrofft said:


> OK had a little refresher on this at Spartan Race nine days ago. Not only rain  on an unpaved clay surface, but sustained winds around twenty and gusts near thirty, coming INTO an open 40 ft tent. WInd effects inside were not that bad other than rain intruding about five feet, but the whole structure wanted to lift and billowed all three walls.
> 
> During a lull (e.g. before the hypothermia patients started coming in) I was expounding with the ambulance company's crew chief about windy ops, and he said he did not like the new Sprinter-class ambulances due to great side-loading by winds, and especially when they made a sudden turn from the direction of the wind to across it.



Yet Sprinters are the same height as most Ford and Chevy Type IIs. I never understood this argument, the sail area is barely larger.


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## SloEd (Dec 24, 2012)

Tigger,
The sprinters are narrower, so it takes less force to tip them over (theoretically at least). It also seems like a lot of Type IIs have smaller sway bars so it feels tippier.


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## medictinysc (Dec 24, 2012)

*We. Go. Out*

When storms shut down entire ports, we go out. When hurricanes ground the United States Navy, we go out. And when the holy Lord himself reaches down from heaven and destroys his good work with winds that rip houses off the ground, We. Go. Out.


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## ffemt8978 (Dec 24, 2012)

medictinysc said:


> When storms shut down entire ports, we go out. When hurricanes ground the United States Navy, we go out. And when the holy Lord himself reaches down from heaven and destroys his good work with winds that rip houses off the ground, We. Go. Out.



Wait - hurricanes ground the Navy?  We must not have gotten that memo when I was in because we did several SAR missons in the middle of typhoons.


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## Tigger (Dec 24, 2012)

SloEd said:


> Tigger,
> The sprinters are narrower, so it takes less force to tip them over (theoretically at least). It also seems like a lot of Type IIs have smaller sway bars so it feels tippier.



A Sprinter van is 79.7 inches wide and an E-350 Extended van is 79.4 inches. 

Track width of a Sprinter is 68 inches and the E-Series is 69 inches front/ 66 in the rear.


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## mycrofft (Dec 24, 2012)

medictinysc said:


> When storms shut down entire ports, we go out. When hurricanes ground the United States Navy, we go out. And when the holy Lord himself reaches down from heaven and destroys his good work with winds that rip houses off the ground, We. Go. Out.



You watch The Guardian lately?


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## mycrofft (Dec 24, 2012)

Wonder why Sprinters look so much higher and narrower. Maybe it's a flattering paint job.


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## Jon (Dec 24, 2012)

mycrofft said:


> Wonder why Sprinters look so much higher and narrower. Maybe it's a flattering paint job.



Eh - the big difference is they have flat sides, vs curving sides.


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## ThirtyAndTwo (Feb 10, 2013)

Funny I just went over this is my orgo, our main ambulance is not allowed to travel faster than 35mph with winds over 40mph, and is out of service when winds reach 50mph. 

After 50mph we respond in SUV's with all our equipment and the hospital has a special transport ambulance that is "hurricane proof" that we use to transport.


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## SloEd (Feb 10, 2013)

Tigger, 
The boxes on our Type IIIs are 96" wide.


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## mycrofft (Feb 10, 2013)

*Ordinal rule of thumb to compare tip-ability.*

How to figure out how a rule-of thumb relative measure of how likely you are to tip over.

Measure wheelbases (front wheel to back wheels, sideways between wheels), _multiply_ these. This is your FOOTPRINT.

_Divide_ these by the height off the ground the center of gravity (CG) is. The _*lower*_ the number the higher your chance of tipping such as in a turn.

*Subtract* how many pounds of equipment are stored above the vertical CG, including people, from the CG/footprint factor. This will dial it in more closely.

As an added measure, you can multipy by the years of good driving the operator has.
------------------
To independently account for lateral wind pressure,  subtract the SQUARE (not cubic) feet of side area ("sail") from the lateral wheelbase, _then_ subtract the pounds of cargo above the vertical CG.


These are only to rank the "tipability" of units, they are not engineering measurements or anything like that. The amount of "slant" off the vertical of the sail area also affects to a degree. Since spin on slick surfaces can contribute to flipping or tipping, finding the lateral center of gravity between the wheels and loading over the drive wheels could also be interesting, but beyond my desire to guess at right now.


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## CarlHoma (Feb 10, 2013)

Pennsylvania Bureau of EMS released this distillation of a Florida Institute of Technology study.

Emsi.org/Files/Admin/EMSIB%202011-012.pdf

Essentially, in winds > 35 mph you should reduce speed and winds > 50 mph ambulance should be sheltered.  The document also has recomendations for fire trucks and SUV's.  

Be safe,
Carl


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## DesertMedic66 (Feb 10, 2013)

I think I've said before but we don't stop responding. We can choose to downgrade to Code 2. Winds in my area easly exceed 50 mph. 

Other than that we treat it as a big game. Trying to stand up in the wind and sand, trying to move patients into the ambulance quickly, keeping that mattress on the gurney, carefully opening the doors as they can fling open and toss you on the ground, and last but not least remembering to only open one door at a time or everything gets blown out of the ambulance. 

The worst wind I have ever been in was driving from Ohio to New York/New Jersey and we are passing semi trucks that got flipped over by the wind. We were extremely close to finding shelter. Instead we tried to outrun the storm and head for the mountains.


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## shfd739 (Feb 10, 2013)

ThirtyAndTwo said:


> Funny I just went over this is my orgo, our main ambulance is not allowed to travel faster than 35mph with winds over 40mph, and is out of service when winds reach 50mph.
> 
> After 50mph we respond in SUV's with all our equipment and the hospital has a special transport ambulance that is "hurricane proof" that we use to transport.



"Hurrincane proof"?

Please explain what makes it that. I'm curious.


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## WuLabsWuTecH (Feb 10, 2013)

We do not have any SOGs regarding when not to respond.  Well, we do, we should always respond to an emergency scene, but there is nothing saying that we have to get there fast.  In a snowstorm, I've responded at 10 miles an hour before.  It just all depends on the weather and what you are comfortable doing.


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## SeaFoam (Apr 9, 2013)

We never stop responding. There's been times when I'll go ahead of the rig in my SUV, just because I can get there faster/not get stuck.


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## mycrofft (Apr 9, 2013)

Yeah yesterday in NorCal was pretty blowy. Lotta downed limbs and trees and fences.


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## Handsome Robb (Apr 9, 2013)

We call a high wind delay and continue on our merry way nice and slowly.

We get some severe weather from time to time and never stop responding...


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## rwik123 (Apr 9, 2013)

shfd739 said:


> "Hurrincane proof"?
> 
> Please explain what makes it that. I'm curious.



MRAP? haha


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## shfd739 (Apr 9, 2013)

rwik123 said:


> MRAP? haha



Yeah has to be that or something similar lol.


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## DesertMedic66 (Apr 9, 2013)

Yesterday, according to the news, parts of our response area had 80mph gusts. All we received was a page saying to be careful but we did not stop responding.


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## RocketMedic (Apr 21, 2013)

shfd739 said:


> Yeah has to be that or something similar lol.



Not quite windproof, but close.


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## shfd739 (Apr 21, 2013)

Rocketmedic40 said:


> Not quite windproof, but close.



Closer than a Sprinter van 

I do remember the Miss. county I worked in had a former Army APC that was used during hurricanes. Our medical director always commandeered it to respond in.


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## sid8 (May 9, 2013)

High winds can create issue in visibility because there is large amount of dust so its difficult..


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## medictinysc (Jan 31, 2014)

mycrofft said:


> You watch The Guardian lately?




I thought it was relevant


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## mycrofft (Jan 31, 2014)

medictinysc said:


> I thought it was relevant



ditto


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