# Should EMS/Fire be armed?



## E tank (Mar 29, 2021)

see below...


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## E tank (Mar 29, 2021)

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						Are EMS providers hated?
					

I simply mean it’s not uncommon where I am anyway that we get confused with the police. Patients on scenes have refused to talk to me thinking I was the police or in some occasions I have had parents tell their children don’t talk to him he will tell the po po. And on the rare occasion we have...



					emtlife.com


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## DrParasite (Mar 29, 2021)

Before we rehash everyone's individual options, and fear-mongering panic, I would encourage everyone to read from some experts and obtain some facts on this controversial topic.

for the record, I have never carried a firearm on an ambulance, nor have I ever wanted to.

The Time Has Come to Arm EMS/Fire. – DT4EMS​Kip Teitsort, Founder DT4EMS It is time to arm EMS/Fire with knowledge of the use-of-force on the job. 



 Before we get too deep, riddle me this...






 dt4ems.com




Arming the EMS workforce​What recent legislative changes mean for equipping, arming and tactically training SWAT and TEMS medics



www.ems1.com




The Myth of the Safe Scene​



www.emsworld.com




Arming EMTs — Ambulnz​Responding to life-threatening emergencies is an EMT’s job, but at times, it’s the EMTs themselves whose lives are threatened…



www.ambulnz.com




Call to Arms​



www.emsworld.com


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## DrParasite (Mar 29, 2021)

and if you want to see what was discussed previously...





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						Armed EMT's
					

I was wondering if EMT's should be armed. There are lunatics out there wanting to end our lives. Should EMTS be armed or wait to have law enforcement come?



					emtlife.com
				







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						Armed EMS. How many of you carry?
					

Where I worked (Israel), we often have to respond to terrorist incidents, violent scenes, and the normal bad neighborhoods. There have been incidents where EMS personal have been shot or shot at.   Some of our guys are issued weapons, and/or have personal weapons and carry licenses. We also...



					emtlife.com
				







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						Should Tactical Medics be armed?
					

***see POLL above***  In my area, tactical medics are a 'newer thing' with each city and its local EMS service taking a slightly different approach to the selection process and how they are implemented.  The general consensus is that Tac medics are employed by and report for duty to their local...



					emtlife.com


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 29, 2021)

I don't know what the answer to this question is, because I can see benefits and drawbacks to each side.

Our social environment has changed drastically since those previous threads were posted, and we need to look at this topic in light of that.

Are we willing to accept the consequences of an EMS provider having to shoot and possibly kill the person they were called to help?


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## CALEMT (Mar 29, 2021)

I was gonna say. I thought there was already a thread on this.


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## Carlos Danger (Mar 29, 2021)

ffemt8978 said:


> Are we willing to accept the consequences of an EMS provider having to shoot and possibly kill the person they were called to help?


If it is purely defensive, as every gun use should be, then why not? How is it any different than any other defensive gun use?


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## DrParasite (Mar 29, 2021)

ffemt8978 said:


> Are we willing to accept the consequences of an EMS provider having to shoot and possibly kill the person they were called to help?


That is a very real consequence.  Almost as real as an EMS provider being shot in the line of duty.  And while some will say that never happens:








						Arkansas Paramedics Shot as They Treated Victim - Uncle Sam's Misguided Children
					

Two Arkansas paramedics were shot in the line of duty on Thursday as they treated a female victim of domestic violence. One EMT shot back.




					www.unclesamsmisguidedchildren.com
				







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						StackPath
					





					www.firehouse.com
				



*==FIREFIGHTER & PARAMEDIC SHOT IN CALIFORNIA*
Two personnel were struck in a drive-by shooting last night in Antioch, Contra Costa County.
A Contra Costa County Firefighter and an American Medical Response Medic were at a medical emergency on Sycamore Drive around 2100 hours when the drive-by occurred and gunfire struck the two. The Firefighter was shot in the foot and the EMR was shot in the leg. Both were taken to a nearby hospital with non-life-threatening injuries. KTIYP’s.
VIDEO: 








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						StackPath
					





					www.firehouse.com
				











						Line of Duty Death: Appleton, WI Firefighter Shot After Responding to EMS Call Has Passed Away
					

An Appleton, WI Firefighter has been killed in the Line of Duty after he was shot at an EMS Call.  This is a horrific situation and our thoughts and prayers are with the Firefighters family an…




					www.chicagofirewire.com
				




I'm not saying we should or should not be armed, but we need to acknowledge the risks, and admin that it happens more often than we want, if we are going to have a reasonable discussion about this topic.


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## NomadicMedic (Mar 29, 2021)

Should physicians and nurses be armed?
Should trash collectors, bartenders or librarians be armed?

I think this argument is pointless... and can’t be won. Simply pointless. Asking this question is akin to asking others about abortion or religion or dems vs GOP.

All this thread will accomplish is a bunch of blather, hyperbole and possibly a ban or two.

If you want to debate a pointless topic, have at it folks.


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## FiremanMike (Mar 29, 2021)

One thing that is often forgotten in these discussions is the security of your weapon.  Having done both, the mental focus when wearing my cop uniform is completely different from when I'm working as a medic on an EMS run.  

I think it would be VERY difficult to focus and process patient assessment and care while maintaining full awareness and retention of your weapon.  Remember, you are bringing a gun into every scene and it is YOUR responsibility to make sure it stays in the hands of the good guys.


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## DrParasite (Mar 29, 2021)

FiremanMike said:


> One thing that is often forgotten in these discussions is the security of your weapon.  Having done both, the mental focus when wearing my cop uniform is completely different from when I'm working as a medic on an EMS run.
> 
> I think it would be VERY difficult to focus and process patient assessment and care while maintaining full awareness and retention of your weapon.  Remember, you are bringing a gun into every scene and it is YOUR responsibility to make sure it stays in the hands of the good guys.


I've never been a cop, so please explain.  I would imagine a cop has to pay attention to the details of their surroundings, watch for everyone who may try to hurt you, identify evidence at a crime scene, comfort victims of crimes, document details for reports, fight with combative criminals, chase after fleeing bad guys, perform CPR on granny who won't wake up before the ambulance arrives, investigate an open residential door, not knowing if the person inside wants to shoot you... or knocking on a front door, without knowing who is behind the door.  That's a lot to think about, especially since many cops work solo; at least on most ambulances, you have a partner who is always with you.

So what makes all that stuff easier to do while having a weapon (or really weapons) that needs to be secured, than being a medic who is focusing on patient assessment and care?

And I think no one disagrees that it is the person who is carrying the firearm's responsibility to ensure that their firearms says in the hands of the good guys at all times.


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## CarSevenFour (Mar 29, 2021)

Although I had the need for a weapon at times in the ambulance, I'm still here, so I guess the need was more of a perception than reality. I worked in big cities in Southern California and went on some pretty bad calls that required 100% of my attention to be on the patient. A weapon would have simply been a hindrance most of the time.


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## Carlos Danger (Mar 29, 2021)

NomadicMedic said:


> I think this argument is pointless... and can’t be won. Simply pointless. Asking this question is akin to asking others about abortion or religion or dems vs GOP.


It isn't an argument; it is a discussion. And why is this topic any less worthy of discussion than any other?


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## NomadicMedic (Mar 29, 2021)

Carlos Danger said:


> It isn't an argument; it is a discussion. And why is this topic any less worthy of discussion than any other?



The definition of argument is: a reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong.

And this is pointless because my opinion is that EMS providers should not carry a firearm. You believe they should have the option. Neither one of us is going to change our mind. Pointless.


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## Carlos Danger (Mar 29, 2021)

NomadicMedic said:


> And this is pointless because my opinion is that EMS providers should not carry a firearm. You believe they should have the option. Neither one of us is going to change our mind. Pointless.


You seem to be saying that just because your opinion is at odds with the opinion that others hold means that the topic should never be discussed.  Is that an accurate understanding? If consensus were the metric for whether or not a discussion should take place, would there ever be any productive discussion at all?

Just trying to understand your animosity to the discussion here. 

My position on the issue may surprise you, FWTW.


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## NomadicMedic (Mar 29, 2021)

No, I think that firearms for EMS is an extremely polarizing topic, and that nobody will change their opinion, no matter what points are presented.

This comes up in every EMS forum or group every few months and it always becomes a debate that degrades into something EMTlife won’t let me write.


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## Carlos Danger (Mar 29, 2021)

NomadicMedic said:


> No, I think that firearms for EMS is an extremely polarizing topic, and that nobody will change their opinion, no matter what points are presented.
> 
> This comes up in every EMS forum or group every few months and it always becomes a debate that degrades into something EMTlife won’t let me write.


Well, I think you are wrong. I think it is an interesting discussion that, while beaten to death sometimes, does offer opportunity for evolution in understanding. Any discussion can go off the rails and I would concede that this one is probably more likely to than most, but I do not presume that the regulars on here will necessarily do that. Look at the COVID vaccine discussion. That went lots of different directions and got a little heated at points, but turned out to be a really valuable talk where folks with different viewpoints made compelling cases. @FiremanMike already made a comment on this thread that I think he is uniquely qualified to make which made me stop and think.

Why don't you give it a try and explain why you think EMT's and Paramedics carrying firearms for personal protection is such a bad idea?


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## CCCSD (Mar 29, 2021)

So now you are going to add 300-1400 hrs of training in law, weapons, DTAC, defusing crises, etc etc etc to EMT school? Just wondering where all that weapons training will be done?
Oh, forgot the legal standards and laws that need to be written.
Liability. Who’s going to pay when bullets fly?
What, exactly, ARE the Use of Force standards? Can’t just claim self defense...Cops sure can’t, why would you be different? Heck. States are removing Qualified Immunity right and left and charging cops weekly for anything.


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## Peak (Mar 29, 2021)

Why would there need to be a different set of laws for a non-LEO who has a valid concealed carry permit to carry while working in EMS than when they are living the rest of their lives, particularly with use of force?

If a 6’5” 300 pound build man tries to strangle me and I’ll in genuine fear for my life why would it make a legal difference if I was attacked while buying lottery tickets at a gas station or transporting him for a paronychia at 3am?

Unless you are planning to use EMS for some form of security or law enforcement why would they be held to that expectation?


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## NomadicMedic (Mar 29, 2021)

I don’t believe that most EMS providers would be able to meet the training and qualification standards required to safely retain and use a firearm. 

I believe arming EMS workers is a huge liability issue that EMS agencies should not have to assume. A provider carrying an unauthorized weapon while on duty could prove catastrophic to an agency if that weapon were ever displayed or discharged.

Anecdotal experience, I have been in violent situations that have ended without the use of firearms. Had I or my partner been armed, that might not have been the case.

My personal opinion... as a quality improvement and education manager, based on the poor judgement and lack of control I’ve witnessed, I am very scared about putting weapons in the hands of many of the providers on the street.

I am not anti-gun. However, I don’t believe prehospital providers need to carry a firearm while on duty and since this has been circulating through the EMS world, I’ve yet to hear a compelling argument that will convince me to change my mind.

Doug Wolfberg from PWW has a decent position that I agree with as far as firearms on ambulances.

_In my view, the most important thing to consider is the risk to the EMS providers themselves and to the patients they serve. The risk of an EMS provider’s weapon being used against them by a disturbed or combative patient is probably just as pronounced as the risk of deadly force being used against the EMS provider in the first place.

Even highly-trained law enforcement officers have their guns taken from them and used against them; EMS providers with even less firearm training or experience than LEOs would likely face a higher risk, particularly since they are also supposed to be focused on other duties like patient care and therefore less attentive to their firearm. Patients who are making threats or who express suicidal ideations would have yet one more option to inflict harm on themselves or others if a firearm was within reach.

Some states expressly prohibit the carrying of firearms by EMS personnel. Pennsylvania EMS regulations, for example, state that "weapons and explosives may not be worn by EMS providers or EMS vehicle operators or carried aboard an EMS vehicle." And even in states where there is no such prohibition, employers are generally within their rights to prohibit concealed carry of firearms by employees on the job (Wisconsin law says this, as one example). 

So legal and employment prohibitions also must be considered before any EMS provider decides to carry a weapon on the job. No EMS provider should carry a weapon on the job without the prior knowledge and permission of their employer; it would not be a Second Amendment violation for an employer to discipline or terminate an EMS provider who carries a weapon on the job without the permission of his employer._


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## EpiEMS (Mar 29, 2021)

This is probably going to be a disjointed response, but here goes.

TEMS and other tactical sorts of folks aside, from a management perspective, I find it hard to believe that an agency concerned about liability or optics/PR would allow providers to concealed carry.

Practically speaking, no scene is 100% safe. A good agency policy would require EMS to stage until police respond for calls that can plausibly involve acts violence.



NomadicMedic said:


> I am not anti-gun. However, I don’t believe prehospital providers need to carry a firearm while on duty and since this has been circulating through the EMS world, I’ve yet to hear a compelling argument that will convince me to change my mind.


^This


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## Peak (Mar 29, 2021)

If firearm retention is a primary argument then should we allow EMS to carry knives?


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## CCCSD (Mar 29, 2021)

Stage. Just like FD does...no matter what they tell you they think they do...


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## Fezman92 (Mar 29, 2021)

NomadicMedic said:


> weapons and explosives


Explosives? Like grenades and TNT?


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## CCCSD (Mar 30, 2021)

Peak said:


> Why would there need to be a different set of laws for a non-LEO who has a valid concealed carry permit to carry while working in EMS than when they are living the rest of their lives, particularly with use of force?
> 
> If a 6’5” 300 pound build man tries to strangle me and I’ll in genuine fear for my life why would it make a legal difference if I was attacked while buying lottery tickets at a gas station or transporting him for a paronychia at 3am?
> 
> Unless you are planning to use EMS for some form of security or law enforcement why would they be held to that expectation?


CCW isn’t automatic in every state.
OC isn’t legal in every state.

What standard of training would you satisfy?
Govt EMS would require legislation to allow carrying of firearms. 
What insurance carrier would allow carrying of firearms by EMS? 
What is your Use of Force policy? Did you try to deescalate? Do you carry LL weapons to employ first?

Thats just the start...

BTW, I hope you have an excellent insurance policy with at least 1 Million coverage, and are prepared to be booked into jail should you murder a patient. 
Are you ready for that? Your family ready to lose everything?


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## Jim37F (Mar 30, 2021)

I'm pretty pro 2A, I would prob carry CCW if my state didn't abhor that concept.

At work though... eh probably not. 

I could write a whole paragraph/essay/rant...

but I think I can boil it down to saying that this IS an industry where we are so worried about liability that it's drilled into our heads that we'll get sued over so many little things, that people will document "Secured patient to gurney with straps 5x" under the belief they will get sued and lose because they didn't write that one sentence in a PCR (amongst soooo many other examples)

Adding firearms just doesn't mix well, like at all with that IMHO.


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## Comfort Care (Mar 30, 2021)

Nope, wait for PD to clear the scene. If its sketchy,, FD has swat medics ready to go. Can you imagine seeing  [2) 18yr old fresh  EMTs with Glock 40s on the hips . haha 😄


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## Peak (Mar 30, 2021)

CCCSD said:


> CCW isn’t automatic in every state.
> OC isn’t legal in every state.
> 
> What standard of training would you satisfy?
> ...



Right, so should we ban EMS from carrying knives? What if the patient takes it from them and kills someone? What if the EMS provider used it in defense, are they prepared to be booked into jail? What if they give ketamine at the request of the police, are they prepared to be sued for millions and lose everything?

What about running code and you hit a car and kill them, is EMS prepared to be charged for manslaughter for that?


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## FiremanMike (Mar 30, 2021)

@DrParasite - I’m going to need to think for a bit so that I can articulate my thoughts on why I feel it’s different.  I don’t want to short change my response to you..

@Peak - in my mind, the difference between a knife and a firearm is that knives are much less intrusive in appearance than a gun.   A knife clip in a pocket doesn‘t quite stand out the way a firearm in a holster does.  Lastly, and this is again my opinion, unless we’re talking about a straight blade knife sheathed to your belt (I.e. ka-bar) a knife grab from your pocket is much easier to fend off than a firearm grab..


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## DrParasite (Mar 30, 2021)

For the record, I am undecided on this issue, which is why I differ to the experts who have done research and published on this topic.  

I am a CCW supporter (in theory anyway, I don't carry 24/7) and do believe that everyone should go home at the end of every shift.  And if I am faced with a lethal threat caused by another person, who may end my life, call me selfish if you want, but I want to have as many tools as I can to ensure I go home to my family.


EpiEMS said:


> TEMS and other tactical sorts of folks aside, from a management perspective, I find it hard to believe that an agency concerned about liability or optics/PR would allow providers to concealed carry.


My confusion is (and this is entirely ignorance on my part) is why some people who carry 24/7 when off duty, have issues carrying while on the ambulance.  Yes, I understand training, liability, etc, but does those change whether you are in your POV or if you are in an ambulance?   All the fear-mongering (lawsuits, media, criminal investigation) doesn't change, depending on if you are duty or not, so while those are valid concerns, they apply in all situations, not just ones when on the ambulance.  

And since you mentioned optics/PR, what would optics/PR be for an EMS agency that had its crew hospitalized by an attacker?  or ambushed by a bad guy?  or if you were that EMS manager, what would you tell the wife of a paramedic who was the victim of an armed robbery, who was shot by a bad guy for his narcs?  What would the optics be on that one?  Or does the PR say that the public will accept a few dead and injured EMS providers, in exchange for feeling safer?  BTW, I know PR is part of your MBA program, so I am asking for your expert advice on this topic.  


EpiEMS said:


> Practically speaking, no scene is 100% safe. A good agency policy would require EMS to stage until police respond for calls that can plausibly involve acts violence.


I am all for verbal de-escalation, I don't know of anyone who wants to shoot another person (whether you be LEO, EMS, or civilian, and if you do, then you shouldn't be allowed to have a firearm), and I 100% support retreating if a scene goes downhill.  What if that isn't an option?  What if you become the hostage?  I've been told (and correct me if I'm wrong) that LEOs carry firearms to protect themselves from a lethal threat, not to protect others.  In fact, case law says that POLICE HAVE NO DUTY TO PROTECT YOU, FEDERAL COURT AFFIRMS YET AGAIN.   However, not every injured paramedic occurs at a "traditional" potentially unsafe scene, nor are LEOs sent on every EMS call nationwide, especially not before EMS arrives. 

Lastly, everyone stop with the hyperbole that having EMS armed means they will be entering unsafe scenes.  No one has said that.  few people have implied that (other than active shooter situations).  The belief is, if you have a firearm, you will use it to defend yourself from a (potential) life threat caused by someone else.  That's it.  You should still attempt to verbally de-escalate the situation, and escape, but when all other options fail... well, how easily could https://abcnews.go.com/US/gunman-held-firefighters-hostage-georgia-dead/story?id=18927171 resulted in 4 dead firefighters?


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## DrParasite (Mar 30, 2021)

CCCSD said:


> CCW isn’t automatic in every state.
> OC isn’t legal in every state.


very true, and very fair point.  if your state doesn't allow CCW, than it's a moot point.


CCCSD said:


> What standard of training would you satisfy?
> Govt EMS would require legislation to allow carrying of firearms.


what is the current standard for civilians to carry?  why does your training become inadequate the moment you step on the ambulance?


CCCSD said:


> What insurance carrier would allow carrying of firearms by EMS?
> What is your Use of Force policy? Did you try to deescalate? Do you carry LL weapons to employ first?


How does this work for civilians who carry?  use of force is a great question, but isn't that more of an internal policy question?  you might get fired if you shoot someone, but you will be alive... vs still being employed and being dead. but at least you followed your agency's policy.  


CCCSD said:


> Thats just the start...
> 
> BTW, I hope you have an excellent insurance policy with at least 1 Million coverage, and are prepared to be booked into jail should you murder a patient.
> Are you ready for that? Your family ready to lose everything?


Educate me on this one... don't the same risks apply to someone who has a CCW?  doesn't matter if you are on the ambulance or not, all those things can happen should you need to shoot someone to defend your life

NO ONE is saying when you graduate EMT school, here is your stethoscope, here is your glock.  At least I hope not.  I guess my other question is why is the current CCW training in adequate the moment you step on the ambulance?  And if it is inadequate (which I would argue that it is), than it should be raised, but it is (like it or not) the current standard for non-LEOs.


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## FiremanMike (Mar 30, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> very true, and very fair point.  if your state doesn't allow CCW, than it's a moot point.
> 
> what is the current standard for civilians to carry?  why does your training become inadequate the moment you step on the ambulance?
> 
> ...


Just a quick note from this post

The rules _are_ different for public safety professionals, not only legally but in the court of public opinion (especially in the current climate).  In addition, current CCW training really has more to do with the legal aspects of carrying than the actual mental preparation for everything involved in carrying and use of force.

From your question to me earlier..

First, to the perspective of the difference between day to day CCW, it comes down to your role in a situation.  When in street clothes as a civilian, not only is my weapon concealed, but I have no duty or responsibility to inject myself into a situation.  I can tactically insert myself if/when it is necessary, I don't have to show my cards from the get go, and no one is really looking at me.  Once the uniform goes on (cop or fire/ems), I pretty much have to be involved in the situation, and _everyone _is looking to me as the authority over the scene.

As to why it's different in the police uniform from the medic uniform, I'm really not sure I can 100% articulate my thoughts on the matter.  It's just a completely different mindset between the two jobs.  A lot of the scenarios you described which would distract a cop are still cop things, and when doing cop things, cops think like cops.

Early on in my foray into law enforcement, I considered my gun to be a constant, conscious distraction.  I was 100% aware of it 100% of the time and I was always worried about a gun grab.  I spent hours mentally and physically preparing for that event, to the point now where I believe it has mostly moved from conscious thought to subconscious thought.  I am still aware of my weapon, body position, and an approximate location of everyone in the room, but it does not consume as much of my active thinking as it used to.

I think at this point in my career (22 years EMS, 12 years part-time LE), I could _possibly_ pull off carrying as the medic in charge, although I'm still not sure of that.  There are just too many times when EMS requires extensive focus (sometimes even hyper focus), and I just personally feel that having that gun sitting there on your hip like a big billboard means that EMS will distract from weapon retention at the same time weapon retention will distract from EMS, and then neither gets 100% of your best effort.  The items that cause cops to hyper focus are generally violent in nature and your weapon is relevant in those moments of focus.


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## DrParasite (Mar 30, 2021)

FiremanMike said:


> First, to the perspective of the difference between day to day CCW, it comes down to your role in a situation.  When in street clothes as a civilian, not only is my weapon concealed, but I have no duty or responsibility to inject myself into a situation.  I can tactically insert myself if/when it is necessary, I don't have to show my cards from the get go, and no one is really looking at me.  Once the uniform goes on (cop or fire/ems), I pretty much have to be involved in the situation, and _everyone _is looking to me as the authority over the scene.


Why? Fire and EMS are not law enforcement, even if they are armed, so they have no requirement to get involved in a non-fire or non-EMS situation.   Similarly, if I'm on the ambulance, and pull up to a house/car/brush fire, I have an extinguisher on my truck; doesn't mean I can (or should) go inside and put the fire out, but I should call the proper agency to do that.

Furthermore, do the same rules apply for non-unformed LEOs?  Such as detectives, US marshals, parole officers, and the US Postal police?  Many of them are in street clothes, often with a concealed holster.  Maybe they are displaying their badge and cuffs, maybe not.  Do they need to involve themselves in a situation?  I don't know, I'm just asking.



FiremanMike said:


> I think at this point in my career (22 years EMS, 12 years part-time LE), I could _possibly_ pull off carrying as the medic in charge, although I'm still not sure of that.  There are just too many times when EMS requires extensive focus (sometimes even hyper focus), and I just personally feel that having that gun sitting there on your hip like a big billboard means that EMS will distract from weapon retention at the same time weapon retention will distract from EMS, and then neither gets 100% of your best effort.  The items that cause cops to hyper focus are generally violent in nature and your weapon is relevant in those moments of focus.


Also, if you are off duty, with a CCW, does your firearm become a constant distraction?  Does it prevent you from being able to focus on life in general? pay attention to the movie you are watching with the wife, helping kids with their HW, etc.

I think weapons retention is very important.  For those unfamiliar, removing a gun from a cop's holster is not as simple as pulling it out, provided they have a holster with built in retention technology.






I don't think EMS should have a gun on their hip, because open carry can be an invitation to someone trying to take your weapon.  And if anyone did advocate for them, I would hope they would mandate a retention holster.  I would be more open to a concealed weapon, provided you have the appropriate level of training required to have a CCW permit.


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## FiremanMike (Mar 30, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> Why? Fire and EMS are not law enforcement, even if they are armed, so they have no requirement to get involved in a non-fire or non-EMS situation.   Similarly, if I'm on the ambulance, and pull up to a house/car/brush fire, I have an extinguisher on my truck; doesn't mean I can (or should) go inside and put the fire out, but I should call the proper agency to do that.
> 
> Furthermore, do the same rules apply for non-unformed LEOs?  Such as detectives, US marshals, parole officers, and the US Postal police?  Many of them are in street clothes, often with a concealed holster.  Maybe they are displaying their badge and cuffs, maybe not.  Do they need to involve themselves in a situation?  I don't know, I'm just asking.
> 
> ...


I can't figure out how to break down quotes, used to be able to type in  but I can't.. 

Anyhow - it's not that they must get involved in any particular situation other than the run that they are involved in, but if lethal force is used, they will be held to a different standard, that's what I mean.

As to your comment about non-uniformed LEOs, their ROE are closer to uniformed officers than EMS, where they would have a duty to intervene on incidents even if they are not assigned to those calls to begin with.

Off duty CCW used to be quite distracting to me, but over the years it has also moved into a more subconscious level of thought.

Side note - I consider weapons retention to go beyond just the actual moment of the fight over your weapon, but the all encompassing mental and physical preparation and action.  I'm sure you're on the same page, just wanted to state it in case anyone was wondering.

My only comment on concealed for EMS is that due to the nature of our uniforms, concealed carry is very cumbersome and not conducive to rapid deployment, which is the exact scenario we're advocating for - "HOLY CRAP THIS WENT BAD QUICK I NEED A GUN IMMEDIATELY".  Fiddle-f***ing to untuck your shirt or drop to an ankle holster in the moment that lethal force is needed is unlikely to end well.. 

I would imagine you are wondering if I feel the same about concealed carry when I'm off duty vs open carry.. I do not, because again, I can choose to engage when I'm not at a major tactical disadvantage..


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## FiremanMike (Mar 30, 2021)

By the way - this is all my personal opinion, I don’t pretend to be a subject matter expert on EMS carrying weapons..


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## CALEMT (Mar 30, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> Also, if you are off duty, with a CCW, does your firearm become a constant distraction? Does it prevent you from being able to focus on life in general? pay attention to the movie you are watching with the wife, helping kids with their HW, etc.



Not that I’m advocating for either way but based on my own experience carrying concealed the first couple times were odd. You’re getting used to carrying a hidden firearm and that cumbersome feeling. Always wondering if you’re printing and always adjusting. Now it’s second nature and it feels natural. Driving my vehicles, doing projects outside, grocery shopping. It’s not a distraction at all, to me at least.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 30, 2021)

Here's a question for those advocating EMS be armed?  What do you plan on doing with your weapon when entering a facility that prohibits weapons (like a jail, school, hospitals in certain states) or you end up crossing state lines on a transfer?

Kind of hard to conceal a weapon from the patient when they watch you put it in or take it out of a lockbox.


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## E tank (Mar 30, 2021)

Peak said:


> Right, so should we ban EMS from carrying knives? What if the patient takes it from them and kills someone? What if the EMS provider used it in defense, are they prepared to be booked into jail? What if they give ketamine at the request of the police, are they prepared to be sued for millions and lose everything?
> 
> What about running code and you hit a car and kill them, is EMS prepared to be charged for manslaughter for that?


Lots of false equivalencies here...for starters, to be lethal, knives require a lot more investment in intention and motion....that and knife blades don't go through walls. There is a threshold that knives just don't pass compared to a pistol.

And no one gives any drug at the request of the police...what they give is 100% on them...

...finally, when an ambulance hits and kills anyone in the course of a call or not, the circumstances of the accident is investigated and blame assigned. 

That said, routine arming of EMS personnel is way more trouble than it's worth....IMO


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## Peak (Mar 30, 2021)

ffemt8978 said:


> Here's a question for those advocating EMS be armed?  What do you plan on doing with your weapon when entering a facility that prohibits weapons (like a jail, school, hospitals in certain states) or you end up crossing state lines on a transfer?
> 
> Kind of hard to conceal a weapon from the patient when they watch you put it in or take it out of a lockbox.



There is a zero percent chance I am responding to any jail. That being said it can get locked up in the narc box, and I wouldn’t transport an inmate without a officer that stays with the patient.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 30, 2021)

Peak said:


> There is a zero percent chance I am responding to any jail. That being said it can get locked up in the narc box, and I wouldn’t transport an inmate without a officer that stays with the patient.


Fine...instead of a jail substitute a local bar.  Your patient imbibed a few too many and got into a brawl but is not under arrest.  You can't carry your weapon into a bar, and removing it from the lock box after you load him may give him ideas.

The point isn't about specific areas that are off limits to carrying weapons, but about them in general.  Some places it's illegal to bring weapons onto the property at all unless you're law enforcement.


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## Peak (Mar 30, 2021)

E tank said:


> Lots of false equivalencies here...for starters, to be lethal, knives require a lot more investment in intention and motion....that and knife blades don't go through walls. There is a threshold that knives just don't pass compared to a pistol.
> 
> And no one gives any drug at the request of the police...what they give is 100% on them...
> 
> ...



While a bullet certainly has the ability to travel further than a knife it isn’t really as far as most people think. Particularly with typical rounds used for concealed carry there is a relatively low velocity to start with and a high ballistic coefficient. While they certainly remain lethal for a significant distance, they are not lasers.

That being said maintaining retention of a knife during close combat is more difficult than maintaining retention of a firearm. It is also much more difficult to use effectively to end a fight quickly, but can easily make many wounds that take an extended period of time to be lethal should the knife be taken from the carrier and used against them.


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## Peak (Mar 30, 2021)

ffemt8978 said:


> Fine...instead of a jail substitute a local bar.  Your patient imbibed a few too many and got into a brawl but is not under arrest.  You can't carry your weapon into a bar, and removing it from the lock box after you load him may give him ideas.
> 
> The point isn't about specific areas that are off limits to carrying weapons, but about them in general.  Some places it's illegal to bring weapons onto the property at all unless you're law enforcement.



It is not illegal to concealed carry in a bar or hospital here.


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## Aprz (Mar 30, 2021)

I thought the post was pretty well thought out. I also enjoyed the DT4EMS video.

Personally, I just don't see the point. I think we do enter dangerous situations sometimes, but to the point of needing a gun? I've been pretending to be a paramedic for over 5 years now and was an EMT for 5 years before that. In a decade, I don't think I've ever needed a gun or would have found it useful on a call. I don't know anyone that has. I imagine the same is true for most of you. It's to that point that it is like saying I need pilot training just in case an air ambulance has to make an emergency landing due to a sick pilot, they call us to attend to the pilot, and then I decide to be the pilot to fly the sick pilot to a hospital. It's just like yeh... maybe that would be useful? But kinda unlikely. I'd make a terrible pilot too. Anyways, I just don't see the point. I don't think it would improve my safety. I think it would be beyond rarely utilize and more likely lead to a lot of problems like being incorrectly used or getting the paramedic shock. Heck, even police officers seem to have a problem with it, haha. Give us tools to be mechanics incase the ambulance break down on the way to the call or during transport so we can fix it. Probably would be a better idea than giving us a gun and more likely to be useful.

I was originally gonna say that giving a gun to paramedics is like giving paramedic training to firefighters. Like that would work out well...


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 30, 2021)

Peak said:


> It is not illegal to concealed carry in a bar or hospital here.


If you insist, then a patient at a school, on federal property, in a court house, etc....

Once again, it is not about the specific locations that are off limits since they were only provided as an example but places that are off limits in general.


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## Peak (Mar 30, 2021)

ffemt8978 said:


> If you insist, then a patient at a school, on federal property, in a court house, etc....
> 
> Once again, it is not about the specific locations that are off limits since they were only provided as an example but places that are off limits in general.



To be quite honest I think this gets into arguing about fairly minor what ifs rather than the actual merit of concealed carry.

Lock it up in the narc vault. If personal security is better maintained by leaving the weapon secured rather than retreating it then you leave it there. Just the same as correctional staff do not carry firearms into areas of the jails and prisons where there are inmates.


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## DrParasite (Mar 30, 2021)

Peak said:


> To be quite honest I think this gets into arguing about fairly minor what ifs rather than the actual merit of concealed carry.


or a bank or post office.... or the DMV... there are a bunch of places that have rules against firearms. many places/laws make exceptions for on duty LEOs who are performing their job functions.  I'm sure that same exception can be made for public safety personnel.  

And if you don't want to let me into your private establishment with my firearm, that's cool... you can bring the patient out to me.  and please spell your name for me, because when they file a lawsuit as to why care was delayed, I want to make sure they have your name spelled right on the lawsuit.

The only places I have ever seen a cop willingly disarm is at a psych hospital, a local jail intake, and a county prison.  All 3 of those locations have lockboxes at the entrances and are secure facilities.  And if I was armed, I would have 0 issues securing my firearm in a lockbox at the entrance of the facility, and retrieving it when I left.  Heck, I once had a police Sgt have me leave my trauma sheers outside of the cellblock area... wasn't worth arguing (and I don't think he even knew that I had another pair in my EMS bag), and it made him happier.  I went in, did my job and picked them up on my way out.


Aprz said:


> I've been pretending to be a paramedic for over 5 years now and was an EMT for 5 years before that. In a decade, I don't think I've ever needed a gun or would have found it useful on a call. I don't know anyone that has.


Interesting... did you know that only 3 out of 10 cops file their weapons a year?  and 17% of cops will never fired their service weapon outside of training?  and 73% of cops say that have NEVER fired their service weapon on the job?  That's according to pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/08/a-closer-look-at-police-officers-who-have-fired-their-weapon-on-duty/ and https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/01/11/behind-the-badge/

Can we admit that, based on the facts, it's relatively rare for cops to fire their service weapon, at least based on the facts? Good.  Do you think cops should or would be willing to give up their service weapons, considering the vast majority (73%) will never fire their service weapon on the job?

I know I wouldn't want to openly carry, and I don't think I would want to carry concealed while on the ambulance. but if I carried 24/7, I would hate to end up in a once in a lifetime situation on the ambulance where I was facing a lethal threat, and the only thing going through my mind was "damn I wish I had my gun, but it's locked in the center console of my car..."


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## DrParasite (Mar 30, 2021)

oh, and I would never mandate/force any EMS provider to carry a firearm.  that's a personal decision, for many of the reasons specified in this and other threads.  It does carry risks, especially if you are forced to defend yourself. And if you don't want to carry a firearm, that's cool, I won't tell you that you need to.

But if I carried 24/7, off duty, with a legal CCW permit, following all the current laws and regulations, I wouldn't understand why I lose all of my abilities to carry and use said firearm the moment I stepped on the ambulance.  Also, if I'm carrying concealed, no one should even know that I have a firearm on me, and I should never be drawing the firearm unless I am faced with a threat that requires a lethal response.


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## johnrsemt (Mar 30, 2021)

PT job I work it is optional to carry concealed if you have a permit to carry in either state that we cover:  and the CCW for both states, work for the other state.
In the 8,000 square miles we cover we get police coverage (they run with us on runs) in about 100 square miles.  I have been on runs that have had directions from dispatch that have said "go to the 2nd brown trailer, because the people in the 1st brown trailer will shoot at you"  When asked if we can get an officer to respond we were told that if we get there and needed one we could call for one (we would 15 miles outside of radio range, and 45 miles from closest officer by the time we got to the scene).   Other areas we may be an hour to 2 hours from PD if we need help.
I can see the need/desire to carry; and I have had it a couple of times.


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## Aprz (Mar 30, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> Can we admit that, based on the facts, it's relatively rare for cops to fire their service weapon, at least based on the facts? Good.  Do you think cops should or would be willing to give up their service weapons, considering the vast majority (73%) will never fire their service weapon on the job?


If it is so rare for an officer to fire their weapon, will it be even less likely for a paramedic to do it?


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## GMCmedic (Mar 30, 2021)

ffemt8978 said:


> Fine...instead of a jail substitute a local bar. Your patient imbibed a few too many and got into a brawl but is not under arrest. You can't carry your weapon into a bar, and removing it from the lock box after you load him may give him ideas.
> 
> The point isn't about specific areas that are off limits to carrying weapons, but about them in general. Some places it's illegal to bring weapons onto the property at all unless you're law enforcement.


I don't have a dog in this fight, cause I don't care one way or the other, but it is legal to carry into a bar in some states. 

Been there, done that, had the argument with a DJ pretending to be the owner (I was not drinking).


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 30, 2021)

GMCmedic said:


> I don't have a dog in this fight, cause I don't care one way or the other, but it is legal to carry into a bar in some states.
> 
> Been there, done that, had the argument with a DJ pretending to be the owner (I was not drinking).


Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's smart. That being said, each state (and some times cities within each state) have their own restrictions on concealed carry.  Legal in one place can be illegal in a different place.  Some jurisdictions still charge people for transporting firearms in accordance with federal law (unloaded, locked, opaque container not accessible by occupants) or for merely possessing ammunition within their jurisdiction.

If you don't live near one of these jurisdictions, that's great for you.  But what about those in EMS that do?


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## CALEMT (Mar 30, 2021)

Aprz said:


> I was originally gonna say that giving a gun to paramedics is like giving paramedic training to firefighters. Like that would work out well...



Hit below the belt right in the feels... it's ok I guess. Someone has to take all the hate. 



GMCmedic said:


> but it is legal to carry into a bar in some states.



Arizona, as long as you're not drinking. 

Again, not that I care either way. But I could see an exemption to the rule (schools, state property, etc.) like LE.


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## GMCmedic (Mar 30, 2021)

ffemt8978 said:


> Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's smart. That being said, each state (and some times cities within each state) have their own restrictions on concealed carry. Legal in one place can be illegal in a different place. Some jurisdictions still charge people for transporting firearms in accordance with federal law (unloaded, locked, opaque container not accessible by occupants) or for merely possessing ammunition within their jurisdiction.
> 
> If you don't live near one of these jurisdictions, that's great for you. But what about those in EMS that do?



As @CALEMT said above, there would have to be law changes at the state level. Indiana says something along the lines of "exempt law enforcement officers in performance of duties" or something of that nature. 

When I worked ground in SW Indiana, I would regularly transport into Kentucky, Illinois, as well as TN, OH and MO. Illinois was the only state I could not carry in with an Indiana License (that may have changed but I have a strict policy to avoid Illinois at all cost). 

There would need to be changes to some of those states laws as well (assuming any of them have enforceable no carry laws for hospitals and SNF) for some services. A big task and one that I will likely not see undergone in my lifetime, which is why I don't argue one way or the other, because logistically it is probably a lost cause. 


The simplest answer is something similar to the federal LEOSA.


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## GMCmedic (Mar 30, 2021)

Something that stood out to me uptrheadd about pocket knives that I thought back on.

I've been in 3 different jails working EMS, and nobody ever took my knife from me.


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## FiremanMike (Mar 30, 2021)

GMCmedic said:


> Something that stood out to me uptrheadd about pocket knives that I thought back on.
> 
> I've been in 3 different jails working EMS, and nobody ever took my knife from me.


If they would have noticed you had it, you would have likely gotten a pretty stern talking to..


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## GMCmedic (Mar 30, 2021)

FiremanMike said:


> Another thing to add, and I hate to be the old curmudgeon in the balcony, c
> 
> If they would have noticed you had it, you would have likely gotten a pretty stern talking to..


I'm sure I would. I've carried a knife daily since I graduated high school, it's just something I don't think about anymore.


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## E tank (Mar 30, 2021)

Peak said:


> While they certainly remain lethal for a significant distance, they are not lasers.


Yeah...that's the point...


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## Peak (Mar 30, 2021)

E tank said:


> Yeah...that's the point...



That distance is much shorter than most people think.


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## DrParasite (Mar 31, 2021)

Aprz said:


> If it is so rare for an officer to fire their weapon, will it be even less likely for a paramedic to do it?


you missed the point of that... using that logic, we should take away all CCW permits, and require people to give up their guns, because the vast majority of the CCW population will never fire their weapon...

like surgical airways, any incidents involving paramedics drawing a firearm will be super high risk and super rare.  once a year nationwide maybe.   But as https://nypost.com/2020/12/18/man-shoots-two-arkansas-paramedics-dies-after-one-returns-fire/ demonstrates, that once a year incident does occur, and the fact that the paramedic shot back likely saved the life of him and his partner.  It's no longer hypothetical, or in theory, or whatif, it's actually happened (and there are other incidents reported by the news of paramedics being shot and some killed by gunfire).

Georgia, Kansas, Ohio, and New York passed legislation in 2017 allowing EMTs and paramedics to carry on the job.  In 2019, West Virginia's legislation did the same thing.  and Alabama, California, Kansas, Kentucky, Mississippi, Minnesota, Texas, and Wisconsin were considering it.  Have there been any reports of EMS personnel shooting people?  any accidental discharges?  It's been 3 years.  Everyone is worried about all the bad things happening... have they actually happened? 

3 years with no issues, and at least one instance of an armed paramedic saving the life of him and his partner... And I bet that paramedic and his partner's families were very grateful that the paramedic was armed; it likely prevented a double LODD. 

Does two lives saved justify it, especially if it costs no innocent lives? That's the same reason I support the cops keeping their weapons... even if they never fire their weapon, if it saves a cop's life, doesn't that make it worth it?


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 31, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> you missed the point of that... using that logic, we should take away all CCW permits, and require people to give up their guns, because the vast majority of the CCW population will never fire their weapon...
> 
> like surgical airways, any incidents involving paramedics drawing a firearm will be super high risk and super rare.  once a year nationwide maybe.   But as https://nypost.com/2020/12/18/man-shoots-two-arkansas-paramedics-dies-after-one-returns-fire/ demonstrates, that once a year incident does occur, and the fact that the paramedic shot back likely saved the life of him and his partner.  It's no longer hypothetical, or in theory, or whatif, it's actually happened (and there are other incidents reported by the news of paramedics being shot and some killed by gunfire).
> 
> ...


^^^ This is how you take a controversial topic and support your viewpoint on it.


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## EpiEMS (Mar 31, 2021)

@DrParasite, I'm enjoying this discussion a lot & definitely appreciate your points. I want to focus on one or two where I think I can add value: 


DrParasite said:


> My confusion is (and this is entirely ignorance on my part) is why some people who carry 24/7 when off duty, have issues carrying while on the ambulance.  Yes, I understand training, liability, etc, but does those change whether you are in your POV or if you are in an ambulance?   All the fear-mongering (lawsuits, media, criminal investigation) doesn't change, depending on if you are duty or not, so while those are valid concerns, they apply in all situations, not just ones when on the ambulance.
> 
> And since you mentioned optics/PR, what would optics/PR be for an EMS agency that had its crew hospitalized by an attacker?  or ambushed by a bad guy?  or if you were that EMS manager, what would you tell the wife of a paramedic who was the victim of an armed robbery, who was shot by a bad guy for his narcs?  What would the optics be on that one?  Or does the PR say that the public will accept a few dead and injured EMS providers, in exchange for feeling safer?  BTW, I know PR is part of your MBA program, so I am asking for your expert advice on this topic.



I wouldn't say I'm a PR expert, but when I think of it from the communications side of things, the simplest message is "we were victimized despite all of our efforts to protect our people." From a liability standpoint, you likely already have training & policies to reasonably mitigate risk, (hopefully) satisfying your duty to the employee. We see much less blame placed on EMS providers who are the victims of aggression. than we would on an EMS provider who uses lethal force in self defense...and your agency might have to defend itself, too.

All of the lawsuits, media, and criminal investigation could change drastically if you are on-duty versus off-duty - your agency could be at risk and you might be held to a different standard personally. See, for example (emphasis mine):


> Generally, applicable standards of care regarding the management of difficult or violent patients don’t include the use of firearms to threaten or subdue a patient, or the use of deadly force by EMS providers. I*n other words, an EMS provider, and therefore the EMS agency, could very well be found to be negligent when personal injury or death results from the use of a firearm carried by an EMS provider on duty. *That liability could arise when that harm or those injuries are suffered by a patient, a bystander or anyone else injured by the provider’s firearm–regardless of who ended up firing it.
> 
> Doug Wolfberg



From a system design perspective, I am not sure what the answer to this question is:


DrParasite said:


> Does two lives saved justify it, especially if it costs no innocent lives? That's the same reason I support the cops keeping their weapons... even if they never fire their weapon, if it saves a cop's life, doesn't that make it worth it?


I will say we need to be attentive to what we don't know, especially in the absence of evidence or research (e.g., cost effectiveness analysis). I don't disagree with your conclusion, though.


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## DrParasite (Mar 31, 2021)

EpiEMS said:


> We see much less blame placed on EMS providers who are the victims of aggression. than we would on an EMS provider who uses lethal force in self defense...and your agency might have to defend itself, too.


Blame?  so someone is actually blaming EMS providers for being the victims of an assault?  Did they deserve it?  Were they asking for it?  Do you really want to go down the rabbit hole of blaming the victim? because I could go further, and it would result in the thread getting locked and likely me getting put in time out by @ffemt8978, and I'd rather that not happen.

the optics wouldn't look good anytime someone (EMS provider or otherwise) uses lethal force in self defense, but how do the optics look when an EMS provider is assaulted and suffers a career-ending injury?  or is confined to a wheel chair? or suffers brain damage from having their head smashed into the diamond plate of the ambulance by an EDP?  Is that considered acceptable to you, or any other provider?  I mean, how did the optics look in Australia, where two drunk women weren't even sent to jail after they ended the career of a 40 year veteran paramedic?  I'm not saying they should have been shot in self defense, but are we accepting that getting attacked is part of the job that has little to no consequences for the attacker?  And don't get me started on what happened to FDNY EMT Yadira Arroyo...  And they now have signs in the ambulance that say assaulting a paramedic is a felony, and FDNY launched a PR campaign to Reminds Public it’s Not O.K. to Assault EMTs, Paramedics...


EpiEMS said:


> All of the lawsuits, media, and criminal investigation could change drastically if you are on-duty versus off-duty - your agency could be at risk and you might be held to a different standard personally. See, for example (emphasis mine):
> 
> Generally, applicable standards of care regarding the management of difficult or violent patients don’t include the use of firearms to threaten or subdue a patient, or the use of deadly force by EMS providers. I*n other words, an EMS provider, and therefore the EMS agency, could very well be found to be negligent when personal injury or death results from the use of a firearm carried by an EMS provider on duty. *That liability could arise when that harm or those injuries are suffered by a patient, a bystander or anyone else injured by the provider’s firearm–regardless of who ended up firing it.
> 
> Doug Wolfberg


I like PWW (although I think Steve is more entertaining), and I think they are 100% right... they are legal experts.  But they didn't answer the other side of the question: Could an agency be found negligent if a provider is injured, and the agency forbids them from carrying, despite the provider having a CCW?  The agency failed to protect their provider, and as a result, that is why the provider was injured or killed?  Or are we (the lawyers) more worried about someone else suing the agency, because we all know that we (EMS agencies) don't pay our employees enough for them to hire a good attorney in case we do something wrong that results in them getting hurt on the job?

I'll take it one step further: while the theoretical liability is great, can anyone provide a court case of an EMS provider or agency being held liable by a judge or jury due to a shooting by their paramedics?  It's been allowed for 3+ years in several states, and I know people that carry, even if it's against the rules.  

Here is another legal question: many years ago, my partner was assaulted by an EDP. Should she have sued our employer for not protecting her?  And the prosecutor refused to charge the attacker with anything, even though the entire thing was witnessed by PD (the officer was standing next to her when the assault happened).  Do we (as line staff) need to start suing our employers when something happens, so they have a financial incentive to allow us to protect ourselves?

I completely agree that "applicable standards of care regarding the management of difficult or violent patients don’t include the use of firearms"; however, where do the applicable standards fall when an EMS provider is forced to defend themselves against a lethal threat?

There is a lot of legal "theory," which is very valid, and that's why lawyers get paid a lot.  But a lot of these theories are just that, theoretical, at least until a court actually finds against you, establishing case law.


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## EpiEMS (Mar 31, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> Blame? so someone is actually blaming EMS providers for being the victims of an assault?


Yes, I think there is a percentage of the public that says "you made a knowing choice of a profession". Doesn't make it right.
The point of my comment was mainly that there is an optical element here - your PIO has an easier job in the victim case than in the self-defense case, and there's many fewer questions that will be asked.  


DrParasite said:


> the optics wouldn't look good anytime someone (EMS provider or otherwise) uses lethal force in self defense, but how do the optics look when an EMS provider is assaulted


Agreed on your first point. I think the optics of EMS providers being assaulted are not that poor, unfortunately -- something like 70% of EMS providers have been physically assaulted, which is an unfortunate reality that is very amenable to policy changes.


DrParasite said:


> but are we accepting that getting attacked is part of the job that has little to no consequences for the attacker?


It does seem like that is the (sad) policy consensus these days, but I am not convinced that the public is amenable to CCWs as the solution, nor am I convinced that agencies would be best served by allowing CCWs, mainly from the liability perspective, but also the weapon retention perspective.


DrParasite said:


> Could an agency be found negligent if a provider is injured, and the agency forbids them from carrying, despite the provider having a CCW? The agency failed to protect their provider, and as a result, that is why the provider was injured or killed?


A bit out of my scope, but seems like the CCW point is hard to prove. That said, you do have some duty of care owed to you by your employer -- that's pretty general OSHA expectations, but not sure what extent that applies to emergency services.


DrParasite said:


> I'll take it one step further: while the theoretical liability is great, can anyone provide a court case of an EMS provider or agency being held liable by a judge or jury due to a shooting by their paramedics? It's been allowed for 3+ years in several states, and I know people that carry, even if it's against the rules.


Haven't seen anything & didn't see anything on Lexis Nexis, but I'm not a legal researcher by any means. If folks are carrying against employer policy, they are at risk of being terminated, based on what PWW had to say.


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## johnrsemt (Apr 1, 2021)

As sad as it is:  Maybe EMS providers are going to have  to start suing their companies and maybe even the local PD for not protecting them. Take it a step further and sue the patient/EDP for attacking them.

When I worked retail before and during my 1st 2 years in EMS the longest prison term someone got for being found guilty of committing assault and battery on me while I was at work was 50 years.  Since I have been in EMS the longest jail time someone has gotten for being found guilty of committing assault and battery on me was 19 hours for 'time served':  the time he waited for his girlfriend to bring $250 bail money to the county jail.  That attack cost me 2 broken ribs; when he found out that I wasn't taking him to the hospital he wanted to go to, 2 states away.   Yes I got to work with 2 EMT-B's until I could lift the cot with a patient on it again, because we were short medics, but I wasn't reimbursed for lost income for my PT job.


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## johnrsemt (Apr 1, 2021)

Maybe if everyone in EMS and Fire and the Police start suing their attackers for committing assault and battery, and sexual assault maybe the attacks will drop off.


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## ffemt8978 (Apr 1, 2021)

johnrsemt said:


> Maybe if everyone in EMS and Fire and the Police start suing their attackers for committing assault and battery, and sexual assault maybe the attacks will drop off.


In today's politically charged environment, would that really be a smart idea?


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## Jim37F (Apr 1, 2021)

Somehow I doubt people that assault EMS providers are doing so after a calculated and thoughtful consideration of the pros and cons and cost/benefits analysis, where others being sued will actually impact and influence their behaviors.


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## Peak (Apr 1, 2021)

Jim37F said:


> Somehow I doubt people that assault EMS providers are doing so after a calculated and thoughtful consideration of the pros and cons and cost/benefits analysis, where others being sued will actually impact and influence their behaviors.



Or actually be able to pay any of the judgement.


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## ffemt8978 (Apr 2, 2021)

Peak said:


> Or actually be able to pay any of the judgement.


Or their medical bills


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## Carlos Danger (Apr 2, 2021)

NomadicMedic said:


> I don’t believe that most EMS providers would be able to meet the training and qualification standards required to safely retain and use a firearm.
> 
> I believe arming EMS workers is a huge liability issue that EMS agencies should not have to assume. A provider carrying an unauthorized weapon while on duty could prove catastrophic to an agency if that weapon were ever displayed or discharged.
> 
> ...


I think those are very reasonable concerns and I largely share them, which is one of the reasons why I never have and probably never will advocate for "armed EMS", in terms of EMS agencies having their field personnel carry weapons as a routine part of their duties. I think that's probably neither necessary or wise.

However, I also think that an individual's ability to possess and utilize the means to defend themselves against violent aggression is the most fundamental of all rights, and as often as we "Mericans are chided as being "gun crazy", I actually don't think we show enough respect for that right.

With the mindset of self-defense as a fundamental right, it follows that an individual who is properly trained (and we can certainly debate what that means, but lets do it in the Gun Thread, because it is a totally different discussion than this) and credentialed to carry a firearm in public cannot justly be denied the right to do so just because they put on their work uniform or enter a church or a hospital. How does it make any sense that my right to carry a concealed pistol all day long as I run errands and shop and eat out is legally recognized and mostly respected, but the recognition of that right magically disappears when I show up to work at the hospital (where we're all sitting ducks for a deranged mass shooter) or on the ambulance, where we routinely enter situations that likely present a much higher risk than usual for violence? I'm every bit the responsible citizen when I'm at work that I am when I'm not at work, and my rights are the same.

The concerns with citizens possessing guns are completely overblown and based entirely on emotion rather than reason. Just look at the stats over the past few decades. Since the early 90's the number of privately owned guns and concealed carry permits has steadily increased, while rates of gun crimes have steadily decreased. Yes, we've seen a surge in gun crime the past year or two, but the incidence of gun violence is still way below where it was throughout most of our history leading up to when it started a long steady decline in the late 80's / early 90's, which is even more impressive when you consider that rates of gun ownership have skyrocketed in the past handful of years. Simply put, guns and concealed carrying are both statistically safer than ever. And while it is easy to imagine scenarios where a citizen - whether at work to not - who is carrying overreacts or poorly reacts in a situation and makes that situation much worse, examples of that happening are actually really hard to come by. It turns out that even though the training requirements to carry concealed in most states are way less than what many people (including myself) think they should be, concealed carriers actually seem to use pretty good judgment.

Bottom line, I do not support "armed EMS". But I do strongly support responsible, trained individuals being allowed to carry concealed at work, even on the ambulance.


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## DrParasite (Apr 3, 2021)

Wow, I think this is one of the rare times when @Carlos Danger and I are in complete agreement on a topic.

And I think there are two different interpretations of "armed EMS", which is causing some confusion.

One group considers armed EMS to mean "here is your stethoscope, here is your glock", which most people (myself included) think is a bad idea.  

The other groups considered armed EMS to me "people who are lawful firearm owners, carry when off duty, but are banned from carrying when on duty."  That is the question that I still haven't heard a good answer to (other than the theoretical liability for the agency, but I  haven't seen any case law supporting that theory, nor has anyone explored the liability an agency faces when employees sue them for not preventing assaults by bad guys)

Also, much of the opposition appears to be based on emotion, feelings, and fear of what might happen.  are there any statistics that can validate if the fears are justified or completely baseless?


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## FiremanMike (Apr 3, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> Wow, I think this is one of the rare times when @Carlos Danger and I are in complete agreement on a topic.
> 
> And I think there are two different interpretations of "armed EMS", which is causing some confusion.
> 
> ...



Counterpoint - just as you say those against armed EMS are arguing emotion, I feel the same could be said for those in favor of armed EMS.. "Bad things happen on runs, I feel like it'd be safer if I had a gun".

Truth is - armed EMS is such a rarity that I don't think there are statistics available to validate_ either side_ of this discussion..


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## GMCmedic (Apr 3, 2021)

FiremanMike said:


> Counterpoint - just as you say those against armed EMS are arguing emotion, I feel the same could be said for those in favor of armed EMS.. "Bad things happen on runs, I feel like it'd be safer if I had a gun".
> 
> Truth is - armed EMS is such a rarity that I don't think there are statistics available to validate_ either side_ of this discussion..


Anytime something even slightly becomes political, emotions rule. 

Like it or not, the politics can't be ignored. We are of course discussing arming a group of responders just a few short months after enduring protests over armed responders.


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## EpiEMS (Apr 4, 2021)

Carlos Danger said:


> I'm every bit the responsible citizen when I'm at work that I am when I'm not at work, and my rights are the same.


Respectfully disagree -- my understanding is that (particularly for non-government employees) rights at work are definitely not the same at work vs. not at work. For example, you don't have the right to free speech at work, nor do you enjoy the same protections against search and seizure in your workplace that you might otherwise have. With respect to firearms, employees really don't have many rights at work (with a few limited exceptions, like in some states where you can store your gun in your car).



Carlos Danger said:


> Bottom line, I do not support "armed EMS". But I do strongly support responsible, trained individuals being allowed to carry concealed at work, even on the ambulance.


I'm not in disagreement, in principle, but from the agency management POV, I can totally understand why they would be opposed. Now, if we're talking about sworn LEOs, different story - even a conservative (from a risk perspective) manager might be a bit more willing there.



Carlos Danger said:


> Simply put, guns and concealed carrying are both statistically safer than ever


100% agreed, and so is the country, so even less of a need to potentially use* a firearm
*Taken broadly to include brandishing as a deterrent, even



DrParasite said:


> The other groups considered armed EMS to me "people who are lawful firearm owners, carry when off duty, but are banned from carrying when on duty." That is the question that I still haven't heard a good answer to (other than the theoretical liability for the agency, but I haven't seen any case law supporting that theory, nor has anyone explored the liability an agency faces when employees sue them for not preventing assaults by bad guys)


I don't know if there is case law around it, but would be very interested to hear from an attorney. Liability for preventing an assault is also a good question, my admittedly limited understanding is that if the employer is taking reasonable affirmative steps to mitigate the risk, then that goes a pretty fair way to protecting them...

I haven't seen any academic research on armed EMS, and in the absence of evidence, I am wary of really changing things up.


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## Carlos Danger (Apr 4, 2021)

EpiEMS said:


> Respectfully disagree -- my understanding is that (particularly for non-government employees) rights at work are definitely not the same at work vs. not at work. For example, you don't have the right to free speech at work, nor do you enjoy the same protections against search and seizure in your workplace that you might otherwise have. With respect to firearms, employees really don't have many rights at work (with a few limited exceptions, like in some states where you can store your gun in your car).


There's no question that employers can legally place all kinds of restrictions on the behaviors of their employees, and that employees essentially consent to those rules by voluntarily keeping that employment. But just because something is legal doesn't mean it is just. Your innate right to protect yourself from violent aggression doesn't disappear just because your employer decides they'd rather you not bring your gun to work. 



EpiEMS said:


> 100% agreed, and so is the country, so even less of a need to potentially use* a firearm
> *Taken broadly to include brandishing as a deterrent, even


Most people will never have a fire in their house, but it is still considered common sense to have a fire extinguisher. Most people will never be in a serious car crash, but wearing a seat belt while driving is a no-brainer. Similarly. that the vast majority of people will never need to use a gun for self defense isn't a very good argument against having one.


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## EpiEMS (Apr 4, 2021)

Carlos Danger said:


> There's no question that employers can legally place all kinds of restrictions on the behaviors of their employees, and that employees essentially consent to those rules by voluntarily keeping that employment. But just because something is legal doesn't mean it is just. Your innate right to protect yourself from violent aggression doesn't disappear just because your employer decides they'd rather you not bring your gun to work.


Totally agreed with your point. But just or unjust, I think you'd be hard pressed to find an employer willing to let a licensed CCW person carry on their property except in a limited suite of roles (e.g., armed security).



Carlos Danger said:


> Most people will never have a fire in their house, but it is still considered common sense to have a fire extinguisher. Most people will never be in a serious car crash, but wearing a seat belt while driving is a no-brainer. Similarly. that the vast majority of people will never need to use a gun for self defense isn't a very good argument against having one.


I'm far from anti-firearms ownership, but the risk from having fire safety equipment is pretty much one sided risk (pure upside -- you pay for it and then can only "win"), firearms reduce some risks & increase others, so it's not exactly the same.


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## Kevin L (Apr 4, 2021)

I worked in EMS for 12 years, and that was 20 years ago.

I worked in some really nasty, f----ed up areas under awful circumstances.

The only reason why I could imagine a paramedic carrying a gun would be for dangerous animals.  I work in South Florida, so we have alligators and crocodiles . . . as well as water moccasins, eastern diamondback rattlesnakes, canebrake rattlers, an epidemic of rabid raccoons, inbred (and psychotic) pit bulls reared for dog fighting, wild pigs (which can be dangerous), and so forth.

The closest I ever came to carrying a weapon was a cheap Italian stiletto-type switchblade . . . against the rules of my organization, but I was discreet.

Florida has a lot of canals and waterways, and passengers could become stuck upside-down in a car that's rolled over into a canal . . . and with the free-flowing alcohol around hollidays, it happened more often than you would think.

I wanted a knife that would open quickly with one hand and a minimum of manual dexterity, especially with cold, wet hands that are stuffed in medical gloves.

I--on one occasion--had to hold a man's head above water when we was upside-down in a rolled-over car.  I cut his seatbelt and the tail of his shirt (which was caught up in the wrecked metal) with my switchblade.

There are specialty seatbelt cutters available, and so forth . . . but a switchblade always worked very well.


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## DrParasite (Apr 5, 2021)

Carlos Danger said:


> Most people will never be in a serious car crash, but wearing a seat belt while driving is a no-brainer.


Not true: As of 10 years ago, by auto insurance estimates "you will file a claim for a collision about once every 17.9 years. That's if you're an average driver, which, whether you're willing to admit it or not, you likely are. & Over the course of a typical long, driving lifetime, you should have a total of three to four accidents."

not only that 







EpiEMS said:


> I haven't seen any academic research on armed EMS, and in the absence of evidence, I am wary of really changing things up.


So what you are saying is... we don't have much research on armed EMS providers (which isn't common in the US), and because we don't have any research, we shouldn't arm EMS providers, because there isn't any research on what happens, which is why are you wary about arming EMS providers (and for full disclosure, I mean allowed credentialed CCW people to carry on duty, not giving everyone a gun)... do I have that right?


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## EpiEMS (Apr 5, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> So what you are saying is... we don't have much research on armed EMS providers (which isn't common in the US), and because we don't have any research, we shouldn't arm EMS providers, because there isn't any research on what happens, which is why are you wary about arming EMS providers (and for full disclosure, I mean allowed credentialed CCW people to carry on duty, not giving everyone a gun)... do I have that right?


Sounded better in my head than on paper.

In short, we don't have a good sense for what the adverse outcomes could be and it is not reasonably certain that we'll get much upside. Thus, out of caution, I would be wary of permitting EMS providers who are on duty and legally enabled to carry a firearm as a credentialed CCW holder*, correct. There's just too much downside - the upside is there, sure, but I'm not convinced that it is a reason to stray from the status quo.

*That is, whatever the case may be that they are allowed to carry by law but are not current or former sworn LEOs or tactical medical personnel.


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## CarSevenFour (Apr 5, 2021)

I've gone 'round and 'round about this issue in my mind while serving in the bad part of town. Actually, when I was younger, fresh out of college and on an ambulance to help pay tuition, I was totally liberal and anti-gun. Until I "needed" one on duty. I won't detail exactly what changed my mind, no one would believe it anyway, but finally came to the realization that having changed and become totally pro-gun, carrying one on duty was fraught with negatives. We dealt with deranged individuals cycling through the State of California and L.A. County mental health systems, and they posed the greatest risk to life and limb for my partner and me, but I could not bring myself to use a weapon against an individual who essentially showed up for a fistfight. I learned self-defense hand-to-hand techniques instead and always prevailed. The only PT that ever planted an effective impact on me was a left hook to the jaw while we were lowering the Model-30 gurney. It's pretty difficult to protect yourself while occupied with a handful of stretcher.  I certainly didn't need a gun for that, just a simple question, "Why did you do that?!" That cut through his dementia and he settled down quickly. Over those years I learned how to shoot and enjoyed the shooting sports with my gun toting brothers, and it became a hobby with target shooting out in Lytle Creek, collecting pistols, light gunsmithing, and refurbishing old Curio and Replica class military arms to target shoot on Memorial Day and Veteran's Day. This comes down to a highly personal decision, to carry on duty or rely on luck and fast-talking skills to simmer a situation down to a low boil. I believe that, if I had a partner who chose to carry, I would have no problem with it if he or she was of sound mind and up to the task. It finally became a matter of deciding that, because we went into areas like courthouses, jails, mental health facilities, and "gun-free" zones, the firearm would be a liability.


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## DrParasite (Apr 6, 2021)

CarSevenFour said:


> I could not bring myself to use a weapon against an individual who essentially showed up for a fistfight.


sure... if you end up in a fistfight and chose to use lethal force, that's not going to look good.  what if the individual shows up armed with a bat?  or knife?  or firearm?  and he planned to use it on you because you were the wrong skin color (making up a situation that you can't talk your way out of)



CarSevenFour said:


> The only PT that ever planted an effective impact on me was a left hook to the jaw while we were lowering the Model-30 gurney. It's pretty difficult to protect yourself while occupied with a handful of stretcher.


Apparently, you worked in either a slow area, a very nice area, or had a short career, because I know plenty of EMS personnel who were assaulted on the job, some with career ending injuries.  There are multiple documented occurrences.  Or maybe you just got lucky during your career.


CarSevenFour said:


> It finally became a matter of deciding that, because we went into areas like courthouses, jails, mental health facilities, and "gun-free" zones, the firearm would be a liability.


So.... jails and some mental health facilities are "secure" facilities.  no one carries firearms in the doors, including LEOs.  there is no reason why an armed EMS worker couldn't secure their firearm just like a LEO.  The same legal exception for PD could be made for EMS in a court house (and i think that's more policy than law, but I could be wrong).  and Gun free zones..... well, freel free to educate yourself on gun free zones: Most Mass Shootings Happen In Gun Free Zones





I think you need to look up the definition of liability, because you definitely aren't using it well.


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## GMCmedic (Apr 6, 2021)

CarSevenFour said:


> I could not bring myself to use a weapon against an individual who essentially showed up for a fistfight.



While the optics would be bad, a quick Google search shows at least 5 instances of persons dying from a punch, just on the first page.


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## Seirende (Apr 6, 2021)

GMCmedic said:


> While the optics would be bad, a quick Google search shows at least 5 instances of persons dying from a punch, just on the first page.



Australia, or at least parts of Australia, has/have a "one-punch law" relating to such deaths


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## CarSevenFour (Apr 7, 2021)

GMCmedic said:


> While the optics would be bad, a quick Google search shows at least 5 instances of persons dying from a punch, just on the first page.


Of course, you can be killed by a single impact injury. Snap of the neck from a harsh blow to the head, punch to chest or abdomen, sure. The most dangerous is the sucker punch. But, so what? From this short reply, it's difficult to see what you mean. Guy hits me, I pull out a gun and shoot him because 5 guys once died from a mutual combat blow? Lawyers arrive by the busload. newspapers write, "EMT brings gun to a fistfight. 1 person dead." So, what's your point? A Google search using the parameters "people killed in a fistfight" would naturally bring up a heck of a lot more than 5 stories about people getting punched to death in a fistfight. It wouldn't be a very good Google search engine NOT to deliver what you asked for. Right? I would say your retort needs more work, Think critically. Avoid confirmation bias.


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## CarSevenFour (Apr 7, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> sure... if you end up in a fistfight and chose to use lethal force, that's not going to look good.  what if the individual shows up armed with a bat?  or knife?  or firearm?  and he planned to use it on you because you were the wrong skin color (making up a situation that you can't talk your way out of)
> 
> 
> Apparently, you worked in either a slow area, a very nice area, or had a short career, because I know plenty of EMS personnel who were assaulted on the job, some with career ending injuries.  There are multiple documented occurrences.  Or maybe you just got lucky during your career.
> ...


You respond to an emergency in a courtroom. "Oh, wait, we need to stop by security first so I can stash my gun." Then you load up, CPR in progress..."Oh, wait, we need to stop by security so I can pick up my gun." Your partner, who is a lot smarter than you has had enough of this, "Let's go! We'll come back later and pick up your pea shooter." Off you go, it gets busy, your gun's locked up at the courthouse. Maybe you run another call on the back-to-back and never get your gun because some guy punched you out on a call and you're now in the hospital with a career-ending injury. Because you didn't have your gun. So what's your point? I can play "What if?" all day.


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## CarSevenFour (Apr 7, 2021)

Aprz said:


> I thought the post was pretty well thought out. I also enjoyed the DT4EMS video.
> 
> Personally, I just don't see the point. I think we do enter dangerous situations sometimes, but to the point of needing a gun? I've been pretending to be a paramedic for over 5 years now and was an EMT for 5 years before that. In a decade, I don't think I've ever needed a gun or would have found it useful on a call. I don't know anyone that has. I imagine the same is true for most of you. It's to that point that it is like saying I need pilot training just in case an air ambulance has to make an emergency landing due to a sick pilot, they call us to attend to the pilot, and then I decide to be the pilot to fly the sick pilot to a hospital. It's just like yeh... maybe that would be useful? But kinda unlikely. I'd make a terrible pilot too. Anyways, I just don't see the point. I don't think it would improve my safety. I think it would be beyond rarely utilize and more likely lead to a lot of problems like being incorrectly used or getting the paramedic shock. Heck, even police officers seem to have a problem with it, haha. Give us tools to be mechanics incase the ambulance break down on the way to the call or during transport so we can fix it. Probably would be a better idea than giving us a gun and more likely to be useful.
> 
> I was originally gonna say that giving a gun to paramedics is like giving paramedic training to firefighters. Like that would work out well...


I enjoyed your post, that medic comment got a good laugh out of me, brilliant! In my service as a BLS EMT (Paramedic training in Orange County, CA was closed to private ambulance crews at the time, only firefighters need apply). We went on a lot of bad 9-1-1 contract calls in the 1970s and I honestly felt the need for more training and the tools needed to help a full spectrum of people without waiting on a medic unit to arrive. It was up to BLS to handle calls on the fly when it got busy and no FFPMs were available. A system that actually promotes advanced life support AND routine "scoop and run" is crazy and politically stupid, IMO. I would have traded my Smith and Wesson 5 shot .38 in a heartbeat just to be able to defibrillate or provide more definitive care in an emergency without politics and firefighter unions getting in my way. My solution? I joined the fire service and became a certified EMD dispatcher in my second career until landing back in the ambulance much later (FD EMT, go figure...). I survived, and thrived, in the ambulance just fine without a gun.


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## CarSevenFour (Apr 7, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> you missed the point of that... using that logic, we should take away all CCW permits, and require people to give up their guns, because the vast majority of the CCW population will never fire their weapon...
> 
> like surgical airways, any incidents involving paramedics drawing a firearm will be super high risk and super rare.  once a year nationwide maybe.   But as https://nypost.com/2020/12/18/man-shoots-two-arkansas-paramedics-dies-after-one-returns-fire/ demonstrates, that once a year incident does occur, and the fact that the paramedic shot back likely saved the life of him and his partner.  It's no longer hypothetical, or in theory, or whatif, it's actually happened (and there are other incidents reported by the news of paramedics being shot and some killed by gunfire).
> 
> ...


In the meantime, you likely now have 2 critical patients and the one you responded to is lying there from whatever prompted the call in the first place and you just shot a guy. Handguns are actually puny self-defense tools compared to a more effective rifle or carbine, that's why the police empty the full magazine, so likely your assailant is bleeding and still alive but incapacitated. Hopefully, I can make bank on that. Buy some stock in publically traded gun manufacturers because specialized EMS Firearms, "Tactical AND Practical, the weapon for any emergency!" will be the advertising mantra for a whole new class of handguns. Maybe a "don't mess with us" picture in the ad showing two burly EMTs standing with arms across the chest and legs akimbo, EMS gun grip poking out of their "tactical" vests, "You're on firm ground with Smith & Wesson!" More crap to stash in the swag bag at the EMS conference. Oh, in this political climate, do not shoot any person of color lest we start seeing a new "defund EMS" movement arise out of the ashes.


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## CCCSD (Apr 7, 2021)

Ummm....WRONG! We don’t “empty full magazines...” Please stay in your lane.


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## VentMonkey (Apr 7, 2021)

CCCSD said:


> Ummm....WRONG! We don’t “empty full magazines...” Please stay in your lane.







I mean, I’m just sayin’...


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## Fezman92 (Apr 8, 2021)

CarSevenFour said:


> Hopefully, I can make bank on that. Buy some stock in publically traded gun manufacturers because specialized EMS Firearms, "Tactical AND Practical, the weapon for any emergency!" will be the advertising mantra for a whole new class of handguns. Maybe a "don't mess with us" picture in the ad showing two burly EMTs standing with arms across the chest and legs akimbo, EMS gun grip poking out of their "tactical" vests, "You're on firm ground with Smith & Wesson!" More crap to stash in the swag bag at the EMS conference. Oh, in this political climate, do not shoot any person of color lest we start seeing a new "defund EMS" movement arise out of the ashes.


What the hell are you going on about? Most of this reads like taticool cringe and your last sentence is in amazingly bad taste.


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## DrParasite (Apr 8, 2021)

Fezman92 said:


> What the hell are you going on about? Most of this reads like taticool cringe and your last sentence is in amazingly bad taste.


to be honest, I am just going to ignore him and hope he goes away.  most of his posts aren't contributing anything useful to this topic, and are painting him in a very poor light.


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## Kevin L (Apr 8, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> to be honest, I am just going to ignore him and hope he goes away.  most of his posts aren't contributing anything useful to this topic, and are painting him in a very poor light.


Agree.


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## ffemt8978 (Apr 8, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> to be honest, I am just going to ignore him and hope he goes away.  most of his posts aren't contributing anything useful to this topic, and are painting him in a very poor light.


Useful or not, they do present an aspect of this discussion that can't be glossed over.  If EMS were to be armed, what is to be done about the tacticfools who would join?

Even if all the other obstacles to arming EMS were overcome, I doubt this one could be.  That presents the insurmountable argument against it because nothing effective could be done to prevent those types from slipping through the cracks and setting back the profession's reputation decades.


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## Fezman92 (Apr 8, 2021)

I'd say that we should do psych evals but not every place would do that.


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## GMCmedic (Apr 8, 2021)

ffemt8978 said:


> That presents the insurmountable argument against it because nothing effective could be done to prevent those types from slipping through the cracks and setting back the profession's reputation decades.



Up until about 13 months ago, you could do what every other armed profession does and just ignore it.


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## FiremanMike (Apr 8, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> to be honest, I am just going to ignore him and hope he goes away.  most of his posts aren't contributing anything useful to this topic, and are painting him in a very poor light.


Now I know why you mostly ignore my posts.....


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## DrParasite (Apr 8, 2021)

ffemt8978 said:


> Useful or not, they do present an aspect of this discussion that can't be glossed over.  If EMS were to be armed, what is to be done about the tacticfools who would join?
> 
> Even if all the other obstacles to arming EMS were overcome, I doubt this one could be.  That presents the insurmountable argument against it because nothing effective could be done to prevent those types from slipping through the cracks and setting back the profession's reputation decades.


Are the tactifools currently law-abiding CCW holders?  do they meet the legal requirements to own and carry a firearm off duty?  The thinking I have is if you carry off duty, you can carry on duty, as you don't lose your competence the moment you step on the ambulance, and just because they are on the ambulance doesn't make them any more or less tactifools.

So it's not "here is your scope, here is your glock;" that means those idiots who carry off duty 24/7 will still be idiots if they are carrying on the truck, but they are legally permitted to carry a firearm.  The provider is still responsible for their firearm, and should face the legal consequences of using it inappropriately, should they chose to carry.  And I'm sure there are a few cops in the US who not only shouldn't be cops, but shouldn't be allowed to carry a firearm, but that doesn't mean all cops should not carry.  and to @GMCmedic's point, I don't think we should ignore it, but rather accept it as the rare exception and not the norm.  Or at least gather enough data to determine that's it's more common than we originally thought.

If an EMS provider wants to wear a load bearing vest (I've heard they are better for LEO than a duty belt, and the studies support that https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31280798/ so the same might apply to EMS), or kevlar vest for protection, to be honest, I don't care.  as it reflects more on them than me.  it's their money, spend it as they see fit.  yes, it's embarrassing, but we can all collectively roll our eyes at that person.


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## CarSevenFour (Apr 8, 2021)

ffemt8978 said:


> ^^^ This is how you take a controversial topic and support your viewpoint on it.


This is how you muddy up the waters further.


E tank said:


> Lots of false equivalencies here...for starters, to be lethal, knives require a lot more investment in intention and motion....that and knife blades don't go through walls. There is a threshold that knives just don't pass compared to a pistol.
> 
> And no one gives any drug at the request of the police...what they give is 100% on them...
> 
> ...


Th


Fezman92 said:


> What the hell are you going on about? Most of this reads like taticool cringe and your last sentence is in amazingly bad taste.


Do I have to draw you a picture, maybe an emoji so you can tell sarc from tacti-cool? Just watch, it will become a marketing ploy and you're gonna see a lot of gun industry marketeers make bank of a whole new customer base for small firearms, the EMT. Setting back the industry, you gotta be kidding. You are dinosaurs in the EMS world and don't realize it yet. You'll see exactly that when the next generation grows up and takes your place. EMS never did have much regard for those who served in the past, Mr. Fezman92.


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## Fezman92 (Apr 8, 2021)

Given your past posting history it’s hard to tell if you’re being serious or not.


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## CarSevenFour (Apr 8, 2021)

FiremanMike said:


> Now I know why you mostly ignore my posts.....





Fezman92 said:


> What the hell are you going on about? Most of this reads like taticool cringe and your last sentence is in amazingly bad tast





Fezman92 said:


> Given your past posting history it’s hard to tell if you’re being serious or not.


Block me then, if you have a problem.


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## FiremanMike (Apr 8, 2021)

ok


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## VentMonkey (Apr 8, 2021)

FiremanMike said:


> ok


I liked your original post better; more fitting. But good on you (or the mods) for the edit.


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## FiremanMike (Apr 8, 2021)

VentMonkey said:


> I liked your original post better; more fitting. But good on you (or the mods) for the edit.


I‘m truly making an effort to be more positive in life.


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## ffemt8978 (Apr 8, 2021)

VentMonkey said:


> I liked your original post better; more fitting. But good on you (or the mods) for the edit.


Good on him...I had nothing to do with it.


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## ffemt8978 (Apr 15, 2021)

The shooting of a suspect in a Columbus OH hospital that while only tangentially related to this subject still raises some points that bear considering on this topic: namely use of firearms in a confined area and the effectiveness of quick searches for weapons.  

CAUTION: video may be disturbing to some people


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## mgr22 (Apr 15, 2021)

Any LEOs out there who'd critique that scenario?


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## CCCSD (Apr 15, 2021)

mgr22 said:


> Any LEOs out there who'd critique that scenario


What’s to critique?


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## DrParasite (Apr 15, 2021)

ffemt8978 said:


> The shooting of a suspect in a Columbus OH hospital that while only tangentially related to this subject still raises some points that bear considering on this topic: namely use of firearms in a confined area and the effectiveness of quick searches for weapons.
> 
> CAUTION: video may be disturbing to some people


I'm not an LEO, but from an EMS perspective, here is a summary of what happened:
1) EMS was called for a person sleeping on a bench in Westerville Ohio
2) Westerville PD did a quick patdown, found nothing, and sent the patient to the hospital with the EMS crew.
3) Patient (who is being treated for some type of Overdose) was transported to an ER, and left the patient in the ER staff's hands.
4) After the call Westerville PD tells Columbus PD that one of their wanted is in the hospital.  So Columbus PD sends two officers to pick him up.
5) Columbus PD is preparing to take him to the county jail, and they perform a more thorough search, finding something that raises concern around the patient's crotch
6) At this point, PD attempts to put the patient in handcuffs, but he's actively resisting... and reaches into his pants, a gunshot is heard, and then the officer who is trapped in the room with the suspect fires his weapon.
7) Hospital PD are called (assuming, since they are in different colored shirts), the suspect still refuses to show PD his hands, refusing to follow officer's commands.  PD deploys a taser, suspect pulls out the gun (I am assuming, can't really tell) and he gets shot.

There is a lot to critique:
1) EMS transported a patient to the ER who was armed with a firearm (which, last I checked, was a gun-free zone). Lets also be real here: if you are the EMS crew, and he says his balls itch, are you going to stop him from scratching them?
2) Westerville PD searched the patient and didn't find the loaded firearm, and sent the armed person with EMS
3) the ER staff never made the patient change into a gown, which would have likely revealed the firearm.  Similarly, Hospital security never checked the patient for weapons.
4) this could have ended much worse than it did, and I think it was by sheer dumb luck (I think the suspects gun jammed after the first shot) that none of the "good guys" were injured.

From a non-LEO perspective, I don't think anyone from Columbus PD or the Hospital PD did anything wrong.


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## mgr22 (Apr 15, 2021)

CCCSD said:


> What’s to critique?


Anything and everything. Opinions from knowledgeable, experienced people. Why not?


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## ffemt8978 (Apr 15, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> I'm not an LEO, but from an EMS perspective, here is a summary of what happened:
> 1) EMS was called for a person sleeping on a bench in Westerville Ohio
> 2) Westerville PD did a quick patdown, found nothing, and sent the patient to the hospital with the EMS crew.
> 3) Patient (who is being treated for some type of Overdose) was transported to an ER, and left the patient in the ER staff's hands.
> ...


There is also the hospital staff member who tried to force his way into the room to treat the victim before he was secured and had to be physically moved out of the way by the cops.


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## FiremanMike (Apr 15, 2021)

My thought is pretty much what Parasite wrote.  At the time of the shooting, everything seemed legit.  I refuse to accept that we've now reached a point where cops can't shoot back when someone is actually shooting at them.

I am distressed that the gun wasn't found on scene.


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## ffemt8978 (Apr 15, 2021)

FiremanMike said:


> My thought is pretty much what Parasite wrote.  At the time of the shooting, everything seemed legit.  I refuse to accept that we've now reached a point where cops can't shoot back when someone is actually shooting at them.
> 
> I am distressed that the gun wasn't found on scene.


I'm not all that sure the officers in thr first scene ever completed their pat down given how ancy he got then.


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## Capital (Apr 15, 2021)

Based on the interaction at the beginning of the video the patient was being brought in for a welfare check/mental health check. Our ED has had a few very close calls with guns/knives/SNAKES (alive!) snuck in by mental health patients. Our hospital got our security the wand-type metal detectors and lockers for all clothes/belongings for behavioral health patients. We no longer allow any wiggle room with these rules. If you're an ECO you are in handcuffs and have an armed LEO with you. If you are voluntary, you must comply with the rules - or there is the door.

On the ambulance as a volunteer I don't allow any patients to carry their purse/backpack/bags into the back. We lock that stuff up in an outside compartment, or you don't get transported. I'm fortunate that my driver (also my husband) is active LEO in the neighboring jurisdiction, and therefore armed. Our agency has it written in the SOP that only LEO's can carry on the ambulances. My husband chooses to conceal carry most of the time for a variety of reasons. 

I enjoy helping people in the ED and on the ambulance, but I am going home at the end of my shift.


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## CCCSD (Apr 15, 2021)

mgr22 said:


> Anything and everything. Opinions from knowledgeable, experienced people. Why not?


Because there is an inherent anti-LE bias among some members and getting dog piled is annoying...


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## mgr22 (Apr 15, 2021)

CCCSD said:


> Because there is an inherent anti-LE bias among some members and getting dog piled is annoying...


I wouldn't know about that. I asked for opinions. Some gave them. I'm not seeing a problem.


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## Akulahawk (Apr 16, 2021)

ffemt8978 said:


> I'm not all that sure the officers in thr first scene ever completed their pat down given how ancy he got then.


From what I saw, the initial pat-down was cursory at best. I was taught that if you're going to do a weapons search, you do it the right way, the same way, every time. There are (a few) videos where a person gets arrested, taken to the local jail, and commits suicide during initial interrogation because everyone along the way didn't properly search for weapons. 

Where I work, we very rarely find firearms but knives (including at least one machete) are pretty common. This is one big reason why I have LE always stay until the patient has been changed to paper scrubs.


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## hpclayto (Apr 16, 2021)

Akulahawk said:


> From what I saw, the initial pat-down was cursory at best. I was taught that if you're going to do a weapons search, you do it the right way, the same way, every time. There are (a few) videos where a person gets arrested, taken to the local jail, and commits suicide during initial interrogation because everyone along the way didn't properly search for weapons.
> 
> Where I work, we very rarely find firearms but knives (including at least one machete) are pretty common. This is one big reason why I have LE always stay until the patient has been changed to paper scrubs.


Are you talking about a pat down or a search? They’re two very different things and the requirements for each are also different.


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## Akulahawk (Apr 16, 2021)

hpclayto said:


> Are you talking about a pat down or a search? They’re two very different things and the requirements for each are also different.


While I'm using these interchangeably, yes, they're two different things. It should be obvious from the context of my post that I was referring to a Terry frisk.


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## Emily Starton (Apr 16, 2021)

FiremanMike said:


> I‘m truly making an effort to be more positive in life.


The positive you are the stronger you go. Keep it up


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## mazeofzin (Apr 16, 2021)

E tank said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you don't want to be mistaken for a cop, no. The more you look like a cop, the more likely you are to be mistaken for one. If an EDP sees someone coming up in a vehicle with flashing lights, wearing BDUs, boots, and a job shirt, and carrying a gun or a taser, they're gonna think your a cop. Meanwhile, if we come carrying medical gear or wearing an ANSI vest or turnout gear, no one is gonna think you're a cop


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## DrParasite (Apr 16, 2021)

mazeofzin said:


> If you don't want to be mistaken for a cop, no. The more you look like a cop, the more likely you are to be mistaken for one. If an EDP sees someone coming up in a vehicle with flashing lights, wearing BDUs, boots, and a job shirt, and carrying a gun or a taser, they're gonna think your a cop.


you know what?  that is a fair point.  most cops don't wear job shirts, that's more of a firefighter thing.  BDUs are more of a military thing.  If you are carrying a gun of taser in a concealed manner, where it isn't visible, then your concern about looking like a cop goes away right?


mazeofzin said:


> Meanwhile, if we come carrying medical gear or wearing an ANSI vest or turnout gear, no one is gonna think you're a cop


Cops wear Ansi vests all the time, and they keep their gun on them; have you ever seen them directing traffic?  Firefighters will be the ones who are wearing turnout gear, not EMS personnel (EMS personnel typically don't wear turnout gear on "routine" EMS calls).  

I honestly think your belief that you look like a cop is more on your head than in the head of an EDP.


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## Jim37F (Apr 16, 2021)

Somewhat tangential, but just a day or so ago, there was a fatal police shooting here. They just released the Body Cam footage. Basically guy walks up to the cops, they tell him to get on the ground, and he just starts wailing on them. He's fighting with two officers, a third arrives and immediately attempts to Taser him, but it's ineffective. Guy shoves one of the cops to the ground, one gunshot is fired by that cop, Guy straddles the cop and starts beating him (cop lost consciousness), one of the other two fired and killed the guy. Body cam showing he was clearly still actively beating his fists into the unconscious police officer's face.

And people are STILL defending him, saying "Oh, Police should have de-escalated" "He only got shot because he is black" etc etc.

So yeah, even in a "captured on video of absolutely clear cut case of self defense", public backlash if an EMT or Medic shot someone would be crazy, and they would still be saying "oh if you can't handle the job without shooting someone it's not the job for you" and holding memorials for the assaulter, and demanding EMS get disarmed and/or defunded or whatever.

I'm not against Conceal Carry if it's legal in your State (and I think it should be legal in all 50 states), and you're carrying in compliance with the law as you would off duty... but "Arming EMS like Police"  meaning employers provide firearms, ammo, holsters, training, etc and you wear it on your belt next to your Leatherman Raptors, mutltiool, pager, glove pouch, etc etc, no, that I do not support.


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## CCCSD (Apr 16, 2021)

DrParasite said:


> you know what?  that is a fair point.  most cops don't wear job shirts, that's more of a firefighter thing.  BDUs are more of a military thing.  If you are carrying a gun of taser in a concealed manner, where it isn't visible, then your concern about looking like a cop goes away right?
> 
> Cops wear Ansi vests all the time, and they keep their gun on them; have you ever seen them directing traffic?  Firefighters will be the ones who are wearing turnout gear, not EMS personnel (EMS personnel typically don't wear turnout gear on "routine" EMS calls).
> 
> I honestly think your belief that you look like a cop is more on your head than in the head of an EDP.


wrong. Cops wear pullover tops. Cops wear BDU pants. Daily.


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## Jim37F (Apr 17, 2021)

And I see EMTs wear BDU pants daily (and cops wear regular non cargo uniform pants daily as well). Of course those EMTs are wearing all white shirts vs HPD's dark colored uniforms. What's the point of whether or not they're wearing pants with pockets or not?


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## DrParasite (Apr 17, 2021)

CCCSD said:


> wrong. Cops wear pullover tops. Cops wear BDU pants. Daily.


good job, you completely missed the point of my post.


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## DrParasite (Apr 17, 2021)

Jim37F said:


> And people are STILL defending him, saying "Oh, Police should have de-escalated" "He only got shot because he is black" etc etc.
> 
> So yeah, even in a "captured on video of absolutely clear cut case of self defense", public backlash if an EMT or Medic shot someone would be crazy, and they would still be saying "oh if you can't handle the job without shooting someone it's not the job for you" and holding memorials for the assaulter, and demanding EMS get disarmed and/or defunded or whatever.


has anyone asked those people how much injury a cop needs to sustain before they can defend themselves from a lethal threat?

And out of curiosity, how much public backlash occurs when an EMT or Medic is killed or injured by an attacker in the line of duty?  Or are certain people ok with EMT or PD officers dying in a LODD at the hands of an attacker, because that's an acceptable risk and part of the job? 

The ignorance to the facts that many of the general public experience (polling shows that some groups of people think cops kill 1000+ unarmed POC a year, when the actual number is closer to 27), and many in the media manipulate the facts to elicit an emotional outrage from people, without including crucial context, is really not what I am concerned about... Those people need to be educated about the reality of the situation and provided the facts that demonstrate that their beliefs are based on correct assumptions. 

I want to go home at the end of every shift.  Most cops I know want the same.  most cops I know don't have to shoot anyone.  it's not fun, and it's not something they are looking forward to doing.  But if it's either they kill the attacker, or the attacker kills him... I know what choice I would make, every time.


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## ITBITB13 (May 25, 2022)

NYC paramedic shot inside ambulance after man pulls gun on way to hospital: police | Fox News
					

The New York Police Department said an EMT was shot inside an ambulance by an unruly 37-year-old man being transported from a Staten Island bar to a hospital.




					www.foxnews.com
				




Thoughts? What if this medic had a legal CCW and was able to defend himself?


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## ffemt8978 (May 25, 2022)

ITBITB13 said:


> NYC paramedic shot inside ambulance after man pulls gun on way to hospital: police | Fox News
> 
> 
> The New York Police Department said an EMT was shot inside an ambulance by an unruly 37-year-old man being transported from a Staten Island bar to a hospital.
> ...


Realistically, inside the confines of an ambulance the crew being armed probably wouldn't have made a difference.   The suspect gets to set the time of the attack, so the crew will always be on the defensive.   Despite what the movies portray, trying to draw a weapon of your own when a gun is already pointed at you will result in you getting shot.


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## ITBITB13 (May 25, 2022)

ffemt8978 said:


> Realistically, inside the confines of an ambulance the crew being armed probably wouldn't have made a difference.   The suspect gets to set the time of the attack, so the crew will always be on the defensive.   Despite what the movies portray, trying to draw a weapon of your own when a gun is already pointed at you will result in you getting shot.


Will it really though? I’m pretty sure my reaction and draw time is a lot better than some homeless, drunk, high, and/or crazy dude/lady. 

This is all besides the point though. If it came to it, I would rather have a fighting chance than none at all.


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## Aprz (May 25, 2022)

ITBITB13 said:


> Will it really though? I’m pretty sure my reaction and draw time is a lot better than some homeless, drunk, high, and/or crazy dude/lady.
> 
> This is all besides the point though. If it came to it, I would rather have a fighting chance than none at all.


Perhaps my own experience with having a gun pointed at me is different from yours, but the two times somebody has pointed a gun at me, I didn't know what was happening until too late. If you know you're gonna draw, maybe you're a faster draw, but will you know? Hopefully your patient is actually slower too. There are police bodycams that show unsuspecting officers getting shot at or some who are just starting to sense something is wrong. I think they are excellent examples of how it goes down for the people who haven't had a gun pointed at them. I highly recommend watching them.


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## CCCSD (May 25, 2022)

ITBITB13 said:


> Will it really though? I’m pretty sure my reaction and draw time is a lot better than some homeless, drunk, high, and/or crazy dude/lady.
> 
> This is all besides the point though. If it came to it, I would rather have a fighting chance than none at all.


Where do you carry it?


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## ITBITB13 (May 25, 2022)

CCCSD said:


> Where do you carry it?


I’m not admitting to carrying at work, or even having a ccw permit, that I own guns, or that I’m even a practicing EMT or Medic. But if I did it would be a Hellcat in a pocket holster within a Velcro sealed pocket.


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## CCCSD (May 25, 2022)

ITBITB13 said:


> I’m not admitting to carrying at work, or even having a ccw permit, that I own guns, or that I’m even a practicing EMT or Medic. But if I did it would be a Hellcat in a pocket holster within a Velcro sealed pocket.


And you could outdraw someone already pulling on you.

 Nope.


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## ffemt8978 (May 25, 2022)

ITBITB13 said:


> Will it really though? I’m pretty sure my reaction and draw time is a lot better than some homeless, drunk, high, and/or crazy dude/lady.
> 
> This is all besides the point though. If it came to it, I would rather have a fighting chance than none at all.


Beliefs like that can get you killed.  Take a gander at the youtube channel active self protection and watch some of the vids about defenders trying to draw from the drop.  They don't end well.


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## johnrsemt (May 25, 2022)

If I was allowed to carry on duty (CCW) and someone pulled a gun and shot me or my partner (or shot at us) in the back of the ambulance; yes I would pull mine and shoot back, and continue shooting him until he stopped moving.  Hypothetically of course.

Otherwise it is beat the patient with our metal clipboards like I have in the past when someone pulled a knife on me, or took a swing at me;  but wait now it is beat them with my tablet.


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## DrParasite (May 26, 2022)

I know this was mentioned about the hospital shooting, but this is my feeling about the situation:


FiremanMike said:


> I am distressed that the gun wasn't found on scene.


however...


ITBITB13 said:


> Will it really though? I’m pretty sure my reaction and draw time is a lot better than some homeless, drunk, high, and/or crazy dude/lady.
> 
> This is all besides the point though. If it came to it, I would rather have a fighting chance than none at all.


I'm pretty sure it won't be, especially when you don't know a gun is being pulled on you.

You having your own CCW firearm isn't going to prevent you from getting shot.  it didn't stop the two paramedics in Arkansas from getting shot.  If someone is going to shoot you, unprovoked, your gonna get shot or shot at.  Having your own CCW MIGHT prevent you from being shot a second time, as happened in Arkansas and likely saved the lives of both paramedics.

In the case in NYC, the paramedic was shot once, so it's unlikely having his own CCW would have prevented the shooting.  It would have allowed him to shoot back, and kill his attacker (which I wouldn't have been opposed to), but having identified that his patient has a firearm on him before entering the ambulance would be been more effective in preventing the shooting form occurring.


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## ITBITB13 (May 26, 2022)

CCCSD said:


> And you could outdraw someone already pulling on you.
> 
> Nope.


Yeah, probably not. Unless we both happened to draw at the same time. …and I understand that but I’d rather get shot once and have a chance to to defend my partner and I afterwards. A fighting chance if you will.


ffemt8978 said:


> Beliefs like that can get you killed.  Take a gander at the youtube channel active self protection and watch some of the vids about defenders trying to draw from the drop.  They don't end well.


I’m pretty well versed on active self protection and USCCA training videos. Most ccw weapons are drawn AFTER the initial aggressor pulls a gun one people. If you had a ccw and all the training involved you’d know that you get anywhere from a split second to a few seconds to analyze the situation, and wait for your opportunity to draw when and if it presents itself.


johnrsemt said:


> If I was allowed to carry on duty (CCW) and someone pulled a gun and shot me or my partner (or shot at us) in the back of the ambulance; yes I would pull mine and shoot back, and continue shooting him until he stopped moving.  Hypothetically of course.
> 
> Otherwise it is beat the patient with our metal clipboards like I have in the past when someone pulled a knife on me, or took a swing at me;  but wait now it is beat them with my tablet.


Let’s be friends.


DrParasite said:


> I know this was mentioned about the hospital shooting, but this is my feeling about the situation:
> 
> however...
> 
> ...


Obviously in a perfect world, we’d have law enforcement search all patients prior to transport. But we all know this isn’t always available.


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## DrParasite (May 26, 2022)

ITBITB13 said:


> Obviously in a perfect world, we’d have law enforcement search all patients prior to transport. But we all know this isn’t always available.


until you have law enforcement refuse to search a patient's backpack for possible weapons, because they don't have probable cause.  Been there, was told that... thankfully, we don't have any probable cause requirements.

So no, I'm not saying LE should be searching all patient (even though they should) I'm saying the EMS provider should be checking for things that might hurt them during their physical exam before they enter your ambulance.


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## CCCSD (May 26, 2022)

ITBITB13 said:


> Yeah, probably not. Unless we both happened to draw at the same time. …and I understand that but I’d rather get shot once and have a chance to to defend my partner and I afterwards. A fighting chance if you will.
> 
> I’m pretty well versed on active self protection and USCCA training videos. Most ccw weapons are drawn AFTER the initial aggressor pulls a gun one people. If you had a ccw and all the training involved you’d know that you get anywhere from a split second to a few seconds to analyze the situation, and wait for your opportunity to draw when and if it presents itself.
> 
> ...


Your CCW “training” or as you call it, “active self protection” (whatever that means) is going to get you killed. Anyone who believes they can outdraw someone from a non-standing, seated, hunched over, hands occupied, inattentive, restricted environment is a fool.


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## ITBITB13 (May 26, 2022)

CCCSD said:


> Your CCW “training” or as you call it, “active self protection” (whatever that means) is going to get you killed. Anyone who believes they can outdraw someone from a non-standing, seated, hunched over, hands occupied, inattentive, restricted environment is a fool.


It’s not “training” it’s actual video and hands on training. 

The discussion on this thread is not about outdrawing anyone. It’s about carrying a concealed firearm legally and responsibly on the job, and having the opportunity to equalize a situation where your own, your partner’s or an innocent bystanders life could potentially be on the line before law enforcement intervention is available, or before you have an opportunity to safely exit a scene which suddenly becomes unsafe. 
Will I end up hurt? Probably. However, although there aren’t many, there definitely are more documented events proving it’s better to carry concealed as a prehospital care provider than not. 

You don’t have to carry a firearm if you choose not  to. But you can’t force me not to. You won’t even know I am unless the unthinkable happens.


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## ffemt8978 (May 26, 2022)

ITBITB13 said:


> It’s not “training” it’s actual video and hands on training.
> 
> The discussion on this thread is not about outdrawing anyone. It’s about carrying a concealed firearm legally and responsibly on the job, and having the opportunity to equalize a situation where your own, your partner’s or an innocent bystanders life could potentially be on the line before law enforcement intervention is available, or before you have an opportunity to safely exit a scene which suddenly becomes unsafe.
> Will I end up hurt? Probably. However, although there aren’t many, there definitely are more documented events proving it’s better to carry concealed as a prehospital care provider than not.
> ...


Nor can you ignore the practical limitations on using a CCW in the back of an ambulance by simply declaring it is not part of the discussion.


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## FiremanMike (May 26, 2022)

ITBITB13 said:


> It’s not “training” it’s actual video and hands on training.
> 
> The discussion on this thread is not about outdrawing anyone. It’s about carrying a concealed firearm legally and responsibly on the job, and having the opportunity to equalize a situation where your own, your partner’s or an innocent bystanders life could potentially be on the line before law enforcement intervention is available, or before you have an opportunity to safely exit a scene which suddenly becomes unsafe.
> Will I end up hurt? Probably. However, although there aren’t many, there definitely are more documented events proving it’s better to carry concealed as a prehospital care provider than not.
> ...


It's all fun, games, and conjecture until someone rams your medic while responding to a call and your clothes get cut off in the trauma room..  Or you wrestle with a pysch patient and the state trooper sees the handle of your gun in your pocket.. Or you are goofing around at the station and someone reaches their hand into your pocket..  Then there's going to be a lot of difficult questions about why and how long you've had a firearm on duty.

To be honest, they won't really be that long and difficult, it'll just start with "you're" and end with "fired"..

If someone draws on me in the back of the medic, there is about 100 things that will need to happen before I'll have a chance to draw my weapon, at which point I'd either be dead or the bad guy wouldn't be a threat anymore.


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## E tank (May 26, 2022)

Less of a question using a gun in close quarters than a bad guy being between you and a door somewhere very lonely. A baton is way more practical in close quarters like an ambulance and you don't have to wind up on the dome and swing for the fences to use one effectively.


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## ffemt8978 (May 26, 2022)

Let us not forget that EMS goes into a myriad of places where it is illegal to carry a weapon,  even with a CCW (jails, schools, bars, mental health facilities, etc).  What do you do with your weapon then?


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## E tank (May 26, 2022)

ffemt8978 said:


> Let us not forget that EMS goes into a myriad of places where it is illegal to carry a weapon,  even with a CCW (jails, schools, bars, mental health facilities, etc).  What do you do with your weapon then?


Full disclosure...just contributing to the conversation...I don't think being strapped is a good idea for EMS folks....


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## Tigger (May 26, 2022)

ITBITB13 said:


> It’s not “training” it’s actual video and hands on training.
> 
> The discussion on this thread is not about outdrawing anyone. It’s about carrying a concealed firearm legally and responsibly on the job, and having the opportunity to equalize a situation where your own, your partner’s or an innocent bystanders life could potentially be on the line before law enforcement intervention is available, or before you have an opportunity to safely exit a scene which suddenly becomes unsafe.
> Will I end up hurt? Probably. However, although there aren’t many, there definitely are more documented events proving it’s better to carry concealed as a prehospital care provider than not.
> ...


So do I have a right to not be killed by the gun that you introduced into the situation despite not having the ability to retain it?


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## ITBITB13 (May 26, 2022)

ffemt8978 said:


> Nor can you ignore the practical limitations on using a CCW in the back of an ambulance by simply declaring it is not part of the discussion.


Not ignoring the limitations one bit. I totally respect that they’re there. 


FiremanMike said:


> It's all fun, games, and conjecture until someone rams your medic while responding to a call and your clothes get cut off in the trauma room..  Or you wrestle with a pysch patient and the state trooper sees the handle of your gun in your pocket.. Or you are goofing around at the station and someone reaches their hand into your pocket..  Then there's going to be a lot of difficult questions about why and how long you've had a firearm on duty.
> 
> To be honest, they won't really be that long and difficult, it'll just start with "you're" and end with "fired"..
> 
> If someone draws on me in the back of the medic, there is about 100 things that will need to happen before I'll have a chance to draw my weapon, at which point I'd either be dead or the bad guy wouldn't be a threat anymore.


Same “ramming” could happen to me in my private vehicle. 
I don’t go around “wrestling” with patients on a daily basis. But I can assure you that my holster and retention combination does not print or become exposed in any one of these theoretical scenarios. 
Nor do I or my coworkers go around sticking our hands in each others pockets for poops and giggles. 
Neither of which you are required to answer without a union representative and/or an attorney present if you have the legal ccw.
I love your 100 thing argument. It’s absolutely right. I wouldn’t ccw on the job to whip it out whenever possible. It’s a last resort. 


E tank said:


> Less of a question using a gun in close quarters than a bad guy being between you and a door somewhere very lonely. A baton is way more practical in close quarters like an ambulance and you don't have to wind up on the dome and swing for the fences to use one effectively.


Yes, but you always want to have the last resort option of NOT bringing a baton to a gun fight. IMO though, it’s a lot harder to conceal a baton adequately, they are alot heavier, and unless you’re a security guard I’m not too knowledgeable on baton certifications. 


ffemt8978 said:


> Let us not forget that EMS goes into a myriad of places where it is illegal to carry a weapon,  even with a CCW (jails, schools, bars, mental health facilities, etc).  What do you do with your weapon then?


I won’t talk about my personal/theoretical firearm securing methods, as to not put out where I work/live, nor do I actually carry at work. But it’s as simple as placing a locking personal safe in a hidden location within your ambulance, and then locking said ambulance. 


E tank said:


> Full disclosure...just contributing to the conversation...I don't think being strapped is a good idea for EMS folks....


And it’s totally your right to think so. 


Tigger said:


> So do I have a right to not be killed by the gun that you introduced into the situation despite not having the ability to retain it?


You most definitely do. But with that opinion we might as well ban all guns. I have the right to not be killed by a drunk driver, so we might as well ban all cars and alcohol. 
My retention of my firearm is not an issue. The only way someone would be able to take possession of my firearm would be to incapacitate me, and search through my pockets, find my hidden pocket, and then proceed to take it. 
Again, the actual drawing of a firearm is a complete last resort before bailing, using your tablet/clipboard etc, or getting hands on. 


Btw, really loving this debate.


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## mgr22 (May 26, 2022)

ITBITB13 said:


> You most definitely do. But with that opinion we might as well ban all guns. I have the right to not be killed by a drunk driver, so we might as well ban all cars and alcohol.


I think you missed Tigger's point: that introducing a firearm into a conflict has unpredictable results.

Here in TN, we're responsible for our bullets no matter where we wanted them to go or what justification we think we had for using them. Watching videos and practicing scenarios won't give you control over what happens when it's for real, especially in close quarters. Someone besides you and the other shooter could get killed.

Being concerned about that isn't the same as wanting to ban all guns. It's just being realistic about risks.


----------



## CALEMT (May 26, 2022)

I'm as pro gun as anyone else on this forum. I own multiple firearms in multiple calibers. Hell, I even own NFA items. Even I wouldn't want to carry on duty. I carry every time I leave my house when I'm off duty, its comfortable, and I can dress around it. 

I think people have this misconception of what it takes to draw, aim, fire, and follow-up while under stress. Now factor in that someone may possibly be within arms reach of you puts you as a massive tactical disadvantage, especially when doing all of that I just listed from concealment. I also think that people have a misconception of how easily it is to manipulate someones hand when holding an object. While they may not get the firearm from you, they will manipulate and move your hand pointing that firearm where you don't want it pointed. 

Just my two cents, but if I ever have to draw on someone I will definitely make sure to be out of arms reach and out at a distance where someone won't be able to take a couple steps to get within arms reach of me. Again, just my two cents. Not trying to sway anyones opinion on a topic where a lot of people are one way or the other. Just giving maybe some different context.


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## DrParasite (May 26, 2022)

mgr22 said:


> I think you missed Tigger's point: that introducing a firearm into a conflict has unpredictable results.


fair enough... but if a person carries 24/7, how does that change when they are on the ambulance?  To take the even further, LEO carry 24/7, so shouldn't his point apply there as well?


mgr22 said:


> Here in TN, we're responsible for our bullets no matter where we wanted them to go or what justification we think we had for using them. Watching videos and practicing scenarios won't give you control over what happens when it's for real, especially in close quarters. Someone besides you and the other shooter could get killed.


I'm pretty sure that's common in all 50 states, whether you are civilian, law enforcement, or military.  

As for the carrying on duty against company policy, if you do chose to do that, and are carrying it concealed, no one should know you have it.  If someone identifies that you have it, disciplinary action should be taken. if you do draw it, even appropriately, termination should be immediate.  if you draw inappropriately, criminal charges should be filed, as appropriate, in addition to termination.

I still disagree with the concept that a person who carries 24/7 loses the ability to retain and use their firearm the instant they step foot on an ambulance.


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## mgr22 (May 26, 2022)

DrParasite said:


> fair enough... but if a person carries 24/7, how does that change when they are on the ambulance?  To take the even further, LEO carry 24/7, so shouldn't his point apply there as well?


That's another topic. I commented on the special risks of firearms on ambulances, not whether they should be permitted.

Since you're asking, I'm not against sworn LEOs carrying anywhere. I trust them to manage the risks.


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## FiremanMike (May 26, 2022)

ITBITB13 said:


> Same “ramming” could happen to me in my private vehicle.
> I don’t go around “wrestling” with patients on a daily basis. But I can assure you that my holster and retention combination does not print or become exposed in any one of these theoretical scenarios.
> Nor do I or my coworkers go around sticking our hands in each others pockets for poops and giggles.
> Neither of which you are required to answer without a union representative and/or an attorney present if you have the legal ccw.
> I love your 100 thing argument. It’s absolutely right. I wouldn’t ccw on the job to whip it out whenever possible. It’s a last resort.


You are legally able to carry in your private vehicle

No one plans on wrestling with a patient

Maybe horseplay doesn't happen at your station, it does at mine.

You are missing the forest for the trees.  The point is your stance of "no one knows I carry a gun but me" may be outside of your control if a random scenario happens like the one examples I mentioned.  At which point you will be confirmed to have at least violated company policy and then likely be guilty of carrying in a myriad of prohibited places which put you criminally liable.  Your union steward won't be able to do a thing for you.  

You mentioned you "might" keep a lockbox in the medic.. You're telling me you disarm and lock a weapon in the medic in view of your partner and trust him not to say anything?  And if management were to happen upon this locked box with a firearm in it, your explanation would be what?


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## CCCSD (May 26, 2022)

I thought you weren’t carrying and it was all theoretical..? 
Turns out you ARE carrying at work. 
Does your employer know? 
Does their Insurance Carrier know?
Is it authorized by policy with a written policy?
Who documents your training, which is composed of watching “videos” and some sort of skills?
If you enter a locked facility, what do you do with your handgun? Where do you secure it? You can’t bring it in, even to an ER.

Seems there’s MUCH more than you thought about…


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## FiremanMike (May 26, 2022)

Imagine the outcry if a paramedic shot and killed someone?

Imagine the ****-storm when it turns out they weren't supposed to be carrying that gun?


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## DrParasite (May 27, 2022)

FiremanMike said:


> Imagine the outcry if a paramedic shot and killed someone?
> 
> Imagine the ****-storm when it turns out they weren't supposed to be carrying that gun?


you mean the outcry that followed this? 








						Man shoots two Arkansas paramedics, then dies after one returns fire
					

A man who reportedly shot two Arkansas paramedics early Thursday morning was killed when one of the victims returned fire. Kevin Curl Jr., 22, was shot dead after feuding with the paramedics who we…




					nypost.com
				




or the outcry after this, when a Armed paramedic who was shot by Kyle Rittenhouse testifies he thought teen was an active shooter?

and refresh my memory, where was the outcry following this shooting?








						Firefighter, paramedics wounded in deadly Arizona shootings
					

Authorities on Monday identified a suspect accused of fatally shooting one person and wounding four others, including firefighters and paramedics, during a house fire in Tucson




					abcnews.go.com
				




and lets not forget the outcry anytime a LEO shoots someone... even if doing so saves their life and the life of a member of the public.   I mean, there were people complaining when this woman shot an intruder over 10 bras, and the family demanded that the shooter be charged!

No offense, but all too often the public is crying foul before the facts are even known, and the public doesn't give a damn about the life of a public safety professional. 

Should any paramedic shoot someone?  No, however, if a person is trying to kill said paramedic, would I be shedding a tear if the threat is mitigated using deadly force?  probably not.

Lets also be realistic: there is absolutely no data to support the claim that having a paramedic with a CCW permit and firearm would result in increased civilian deaths.  Lots of opinions, lots of assumptions, lots of worse case scenario, but no actual data that shows the fear mongering would actually happen.  And before you say that's because that's because no state in the US allows it, in 2020 there was a change in Virginia’s EMS regulations that removed the prohibition of firearm carriage by EMS employees on duty. The blanket ban was lifted by the state.   Has anyone heard the reports of the on duty paramedics shooting civilians?   I must have missed all that outcry....


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## CCCSD (May 27, 2022)

“the outcry after this, when a Armed paramedic who was shot by Kyle Rittenhouse testifies he thought teen was an active shooter?”

That wasn’t a “paramedic on duty” functioning in an EMS system, it was an Anarchist who was trying to kill someone due to politics. Let’s not make this “Paramedic” out to be a hero. He’s not. He’s a political thug, intent on repression of people rights.


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## FiremanMike (May 27, 2022)

DrParasite said:


> you mean the outcry that followed this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You’re both making and simultaneously completely missing my point.

The general public doesn’t much care when first responders are killed, but they swiftly and publicly denounce when cops use deadly force.  

The public backlash for a paramedic using a gun he wasn’t supposed to have would be intense, definitely not something I want to go through.


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## DrParasite (May 27, 2022)

FiremanMike said:


> The general public doesn’t much care when first responders are killed, but they swiftly and publicly denounce when cops use deadly force.


you're right... and yet, I don't see there being a push to disarm any members of law enforcement, except by idiots who want to disband the police.  And that's a societal problem, where the lives of cops are held in a much lower regard than the general public, as well as a failure of political leadership to publicly stand up for the members of law enforcement, and denounce the activities of criminals.


FiremanMike said:


> The public backlash for a paramedic using a gun he wasn’t supposed to have would be intense, definitely not something I want to go through.


You know what?  Neither do I.

However, I would much rather go through that public backlash than go to a paramedic's LODD funeral, and have to explain to his/her husband/wife & kids that mommy/daddy isn't coming home every again.  Especially when the kid is going to ask me "why didn't daddy have his gun on him?  he always carries it anytime he leaves the house."


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## DrParasite (May 27, 2022)

CCCSD said:


> “the outcry after this, when a Armed paramedic who was shot by Kyle Rittenhouse testifies he thought teen was an active shooter?”
> 
> That wasn’t a “paramedic on duty” functioning in an EMS system, it was an Anarchist who was trying to kill someone due to politics. Let’s not make this “Paramedic” out to be a hero. He’s not. He’s a political thug, intent on repression of people rights.


I know... it was actually a person impersonating a paramedic in a state that he wasn't licensed to practice in.  And I took great pleasure in watching him look like a complete moron on the witness stand, when the defense attorney tore him to shreds.  Not only that, I hope his civil suit is dismissed, and he is the criminally charged for any crimes he committed that night (but I won't hold my breath, based on the sham trial that was held).

But look how the media framed him... they tried to portray him as a hero, who was trying to save lives.   if only our media reported the facts accurately, instead of with a political agenda?  Different topic, but the headline was all that people read.


----------



## FiremanMike (May 27, 2022)

DrParasite said:


> You know what?  Neither do I.
> 
> However, I would much rather go through that public backlash than go to a paramedic's LODD funeral, and have to explain to his/her husband/wife & kids that mommy/daddy isn't coming home every again.  Especially when the kid is going to ask me "why didn't daddy have his gun on him?  he always carries it anytime he leaves the house."


Or the more likely scenario:

“Daddy why don’t we have food to eat?”

“Well son, daddy got caught carrying a gun at work which violated some pretty big rules and I got fired”


----------



## Summit (May 27, 2022)

ffemt8978 said:


> Let us not forget that EMS goes into a myriad of places where it is illegal to carry a weapon,  even with a CCW (jails, schools, bars, mental health facilities, etc).  What do you do with your weapon then?


Not to mention the ER!


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## Tigger (May 27, 2022)

DrParasite said:


> Man shoots two Arkansas paramedics, then dies after one returns fire
> 
> 
> A man who reportedly shot two Arkansas paramedics early Thursday morning was killed when one of the victims returned fire. Kevin Curl Jr., 22, was shot dead after feuding with the paramedics who we…
> ...


There is no evidence that paramedics having guns will have any benefit either.

Let’s look at this as we do with other expansions of care in the prehospital care realm.

The established norm is that EMS does not carry firearms. There are variety reasons why this may be the case, most of which have been expressed in this thread already.

Given that, some degree of evidence of benefit would be needed to change the norm. Does allowing EMS carry of firearms meet this burden?

There are a lot of medications and treatments that EMS could feasibly provide but there is too much risk in things going bad for it to be sensible


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## DrParasite (May 29, 2022)

Tigger said:


> There is no evidence that paramedics having guns will have any benefit either.


That's an accurate statement... and it's accurate because there has never been any research done on the topic.  However, there is research, conducted by the CDC during the Obama Administration, that concluded "Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies"  https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/cdc-study-use-firearms-self-defense-important-crime-deterrent and https://nap.nationalacademies.org/c...reduce-the-threat-of-firearm-related-violence


Tigger said:


> The established norm is that EMS does not carry firearms. There are variety reasons why this may be the case, most of which have been expressed in this thread already.


That is 100% correct.  And as a result, we are known as a soft target, because everyone KNOWS that EMS is not armed.  in NYC, More NY EMS workers are getting attacked on the job.   The same claim cannot be said for those we interact with...  At what point do we, as an industry, no longer want to be considered a soft target?


Tigger said:


> Given that, some degree of evidence of benefit would be needed to change the norm. Does allowing EMS carry of firearms meet this burden?


see the study from the CDC above.

As I have said numerous times, I'm not saying we should be carrying firearms.   In fact, I have never carried a firearm on an ambulance, a firetruck, or in any emergency vehicle, nor do I really have any desire to.  I'm not advocating for "here is your stethoscope, here is your glock" standards, because that is a recipe for disaster, and not one I would ever advocate for.

But if you carry 24/7/365 (lawfully and legally), why do your weapon retention and firearm proficiency cease to exist the moment you step foot on an ambulance?  Why should a person become more vulnerable because they are going into potentially dangerous situations?


----------



## CCCSD (May 29, 2022)

DrParasite said:


> That's an accurate statement... and it's accurate because there has never been any research done on the topic.  However, there is research, conducted by the CDC during the Obama Administration, that concluded "Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies"  https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/cdc-study-use-firearms-self-defense-important-crime-deterrent and https://nap.nationalacademies.org/c...reduce-the-threat-of-firearm-related-violence
> 
> That is 100% correct.  And as a result, we are known as a soft target, because everyone KNOWS that EMS is not armed.  in NYC, More NY EMS workers are getting attacked on the job.   The same claim cannot be said for those we interact with...  At what point do we, as an industry, no longer want to be considered a soft target?
> 
> ...


Because they work for a private/Gov entity and that entity gets to say what the rules are. I’m not even going to go into the insurance issues…


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## johnrsemt (May 31, 2022)

My PT job we can carry concealed, owner is ok with it, and her insurance company is too.  Especially since in the 8,500 square mile response area we may be 2 hours from the police and part of the area we don't have cell and radio coverage so calling the police is tough. 
Carrying into schools (both states allow teachers, staff and parents and civilians to carry concealed to protect the students so I am pretty sure that we fall into that group), into casinos (which doesn't allow CCW, but most of the security know some of us carry and they don't care) and into churches, (which some do and some don't allow it, but none have said anything).

I don't personally carry on Duty, but have thought more and more about doing so.  Personal preference.


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## Tigger (May 31, 2022)

If a private entity doesn’t want you to bring a gun onto their premise, they have that right. This idea that EMS can just “get away with it” is absurd. Not sure when it became ok to violate other private entities rights just because you want to. 

If that’s the attitude people have I don’t really want them to carry a gun either. Follow the rules like an adult.


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## Kavsuvb (Jul 16, 2022)

If were talking about EMS being armed for self defense, their are less than lethal options like pepper spray or even Pepper ball guns like the Byrna. Here's the link to their site. https://byrna.com/

Here's an example of less than lethal being used. 




Here's the blog post. https://byrna.com/blogs/byrna-nation/police-deploy-byrna-less-lethal-to-arrest-violent-felon


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## CCCSD (Jul 16, 2022)

Yeah….pepper spray in the back of a rig. Paintball guns that can look like firearms…


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## luke_31 (Jul 17, 2022)

CCCSD said:


> Yeah….pepper spray in the back of a rig. Paintball guns that can look like firearms…


Dude if you do the pepper spray in the back of the rig, film it please. Yes I know you’re kidding, but it would be a hilarious thing to watch from afar.


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## CCCSD (Jul 17, 2022)

luke_31 said:


> Dude if you do the pepper spray in the back of the rig, film it please. Yes I know you’re kidding, but it would be a hilarious thing to watch from afar.


That wouldn’t be me.


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## luke_31 (Jul 18, 2022)

CCCSD said:


> That wouldn’t be me.


I hear you there. I’ve been in the back with patients after they have been sprayed and it lingers on the skin and clothes, off gassing or something cause it’s not comfortable but at least it isn’t as bad as when it’s first sprayed.


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## Kevinf (Jul 18, 2022)

I've been in enclosed areas where mace and pepper spray were discharged. You will be very quickly abandoning an ambulace if either of those go off inside 😆


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## DrParasite (Jul 18, 2022)

As someone who was in the back of the ambulance when the drychem extinguisher went off, I can assure you that it's not just mace or pepper spray....


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## HardKnocks (Jul 25, 2022)

Several Law Enforcement Agencies have had "Dual-Role" Officers in Arizona.  The two that first come to mind is the U.s. Border Patrol and the second is the Jerome Police Department.  Most of the opinions here against arming EMS Providers can be debunked by reviewing these two agency's operations.  They both provide top notch Basic and Advanced EMS Services, (with the USBP managing a full Air Rescue/Medivac Operation).

The City of Jerome Police Chief has successfully carried out Dual Roles as both EMS Provider and Local Law Enforcement.  Its worked well and has saved the small town lots of money, not to mention, saved a few lives.  The Chief is working on having all Police Officers EMT licensed.

This concept isn't new.  I've been a "Shooting Medic" for several decades and for the aforementioned posts regarding concerns of losing focus during EMS Events or Tactical Proficiency its all a matter of training.


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## Summit (Jul 25, 2022)

The existence of fully trained LEOs that are also medics existing in well functioning niche roles does absolutely NOTHING to support the idea of arming all or most EMS.


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## Carlos Danger (Jul 25, 2022)

Summit said:


> The existence of fully trained LEOs that are also medics existing in well functioning niche roles does absolutely NOTHING to support the idea of arming all or most EMS.


Their existence shows that it is entirely possible for a well trained individual to engage in patient care while safely retaining their weapon and prioritizing their focus on a moment-to-moment basis. Handling a firearm with a high degree of competence isn't rocket science. It takes a fair amount of training and the correct mindset, that's all.


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## CALEMT (Jul 25, 2022)

Carlos Danger said:


> Their existence shows that it is entirely possible for a well trained individual to engage in patient care while safely retaining their weapon and prioritizing their focus on a moment-to-moment basis. Handling a firearm with a high degree of competence isn't rocket science. It takes a fair amount of training and the correct mindset, that's all.





HardKnocks said:


> Several Law Enforcement Agencies have had "Dual-Role" Officers in Arizona.  The two that first come to mind is the U.s. Border Patrol and the second is the Jerome Police Department.  Most of the opinions here against arming EMS Providers can be debunked by reviewing these two agency's operations.  They both provide top notch Basic and Advanced EMS Services, (with the USBP managing a full Air Rescue/Medivac Operation).
> 
> The City of Jerome Police Chief has successfully carried out Dual Roles as both EMS Provider and Local Law Enforcement.  Its worked well and has saved the small town lots of money, not to mention, saved a few lives.  The Chief is working on having all Police Officers EMT licensed.
> 
> This concept isn't new.  I've been a "Shooting Medic" for several decades and for the aforementioned posts regarding concerns of losing focus during EMS Events or Tactical Proficiency its all a matter of training.



Ok, but those are sworn officers who go through a POST academy and also enforce laws (federal, state, and/or local). Same goes to AZ DPS, the TFO (Tactical flight OFFICER) is also a paramedic who is also a sworn officer.


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## Carlos Danger (Jul 25, 2022)

CALEMT said:


> Ok, but those are sworn officers who go through a POST academy and also enforce laws (federal, state, and/or local). Same goes to AZ DPS, the TFO (Tactical flight OFFICER) is also a paramedic who is also a sworn officer.


But they weren't born knowing how to use a gun. They learned through training.


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## Tigger (Jul 25, 2022)

Carlos Danger said:


> But they weren't born knowing how to use a gun. They learned through training.


Learned through training, so they could do a completely different job (well at least the border patrol guys). 

Not sure how the listed PD works, I am aware there places that have PD providing EMS. Sometimes there’s reasons why service delivery models are uncommon, and the fact that a few PDs out there provide EMS hardly means it’s the best idea.


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## CALEMT (Jul 26, 2022)

Carlos Danger said:


> They learned through training.



Yes that would be POST. Where you lean weapons, basic tactics, laws, penal codes, defensive driving, de-escalation tactics, etc. To be a cop. 

And for the record in case anyone is wondering. I’m not anti-gun. Quite opposite actually. I think it’s a significant disadvantage to be armed within the 21’ rule of someone. Especially in the confines of the back of an ambulance.


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## DrParasite (Jul 26, 2022)

CALEMT said:


> Yes that would be POST. Where you lean weapons, basic tactics, laws, penal codes, defensive driving, de-escalation tactics, etc. To be a cop.


Could something similar be created for EMS?  an abridged course that incudes weapons, basic tactics, and de-escalation tactics, but not penal codes and a lot of the legal stuff that involve enforcing the law? 

Using California's POST training as an example as an example (found at https://post.ca.gov/regular-basic-course-training-specifications), training involves two relevant domains, Domain 35 which is Firearms/Chemical Agents for 72 hours, and Domain 20 use for force/de-escalation, which is 16 hours.  That's 86 out of the 581 minimum hours required for POST certification, not including testing.

The rest of the training involved other domains that would be more relevant to LEO operations, not firearms use.  Wouldn't that allow the EMS providers to be "adequately training" as officers in those two domains?


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## Summit (Jul 26, 2022)

What is the motivation for agencies to send their people to that? Liability?


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## CCCSD (Jul 26, 2022)

DrParasite said:


> Could something similar be created for EMS?  an abridged course that incudes weapons, basic tactics, and de-escalation tactics, but not penal codes and a lot of the legal stuff that involve enforcing the law?
> 
> Using California's POST training as an example as an example (found at https://post.ca.gov/regular-basic-course-training-specifications), training involves two relevant domains, Domain 35 which is Firearms/Chemical Agents for 72 hours, and Domain 20 use for force/de-escalation, which is 16 hours.  That's 86 out of the 581 minimum hours required for POST certification, not including testing.
> 
> The rest of the training involved other domains that would be more relevant to LEO operations, not firearms use.  Wouldn't that allow the EMS providers to be "adequately training" as officers in those two domains?


POST will not certify that. Under what authority are your EMS providers going to CCW?


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## DrParasite (Jul 27, 2022)

Summit said:


> What is the motivation for agencies to send their people to that? Liability?


Liability is the primary reason... sending people for the proper training reduces liability greatly, because they receive formal training in firearms and firearms-related topics.  Some agencies do permit their providers to be armed, and some states (at in least Virginia) have codified this permission in the law, while others turn a blind eye to it (don't ask, don't tell).  I'm curious if lawsuits can be brought by EMS providers who are victims of violence against their agency, because the agency failed to provide them with all the tools needed to defend themselves against an attacker.  Not a lawyer, just an idea.


CCCSD said:


> POST will not certify that. Under what authority are your EMS providers going to CCW?


of course not, nor would I expect POST to, as POST is the Peace Officer’s Standards and Training, which is not what EMS providers are.  

the comment that was made was that EMS providers don't have the proper training; this solves that issue, as if an EMS provider meets the same firearm related training as those who complete the POST course (IE, law enforcement officers), wouldn't that be acceptable?

As for whose authority,.... if an EMS provider has a CCW (meeting state licensure requirements), has the proper training in firearms as law enforcement (meeting POST requirements, for agency approval), whose additional authority do you need?


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## johnrsemt (Jul 29, 2022)

Luke_31:  it is not fun to be in the back of an ambulance when an idiot officer pepper sprays a combative patient.
I was in the back at the scene when the unconscious patient (2 FF, medic {Me}, EMT and 2 officers) woke up and became combative.  3rd officer pulled up, opened the back door, and pepper sprayed everyone.  I climbed out after a couple of minutes and yelled at him that his LT was going to have him writing tickets to penguins for that:  about the time he gave up trying to figure out what I meant his LT climbed out of the back and started yelling at him, and trying not to laugh about my comment....Took us almost a week to decon the truck, and we threw away most of the supplies.  The PD paid for them, which shocked me.


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## CCCSD (Jul 30, 2022)

A whole week to clean up some OC. Wow. So that’s about what, two months for some puke..?


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## Tigger (Aug 1, 2022)

DrParasite said:


> As for whose authority,.... if an EMS provider has a CCW (meeting state licensure requirements), has the proper training in firearms as law enforcement (meeting POST requirements, for agency approval), whose additional authority do you need?


How does that work for all the places that prohibit firearms on the premises except for law enforcement?


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## luke_31 (Aug 2, 2022)

johnrsemt said:


> Luke_31:  it is not fun to be in the back of an ambulance when an idiot officer pepper sprays a combative patient.
> I was in the back at the scene when the unconscious patient (2 FF, medic {Me}, EMT and 2 officers) woke up and became combative.  3rd officer pulled up, opened the back door, and pepper sprayed everyone.  I climbed out after a couple of minutes and yelled at him that his LT was going to have him writing tickets to penguins for that:  about the time he gave up trying to figure out what I meant his LT climbed out of the back and started yelling at him, and trying not to laugh about my comment....Took us almost a week to decon the truck, and we threw away most of the supplies.  The PD paid for them, which shocked me.


Sounds like a not so fun experience. Guess he should have taken half a second to see what was going on and maybe think through the process


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## DrParasite (Aug 2, 2022)

Tigger said:


> How does that work for all the places that prohibit firearms on the premises except for law enforcement?


There are a few ways to think about this:
1) If it's simply a business request, if it's concealed no one should know you have a firearm.  and if you need to draw it, than there better be a really good reason.  Also, you deal with the consequences, but if they don't know, they don't know.  If I'm not mistaken, the only thing they can do is ask you to leave, in which case, follow their directions and leave, documenting as such.

I'm not saying this is ideal, just an option.

2) if it's a legal prohibition, with a legal exception for on duty law enforcement officers, than the legislation would need to modify the law to include LEOs and on duty emergency personnel.  

There are places that ban all people from carrying firearms, including on-duty law enforcement officers, with an exception for those who are performing their job functions ( I want to say it was an NC Twp LEO went to the DMV to renew his POV registration, while on duty, was asked by security to disarm due to their no fire arms policy, the officer said no, County deputies were called, and the officer was given a trespassing citation, but I might be incorrect) 

3) if it's a secure facility (psych facility, jail, etc), that has lock boxes that all personnel (including LEOs) are required to secure their weapons, than secure your firearms, just like everyone else does


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## Summit (Aug 2, 2022)

DrParasite said:


> 1) If it's simply a business request, if it's concealed no one should know you have a firearm.  and if you need to draw it, than there better be a really good reason.  Also, you deal with the consequences, but if they don't know, they don't know.  If I'm not mistaken, the only thing they can do is ask you to leave, in which case, follow their directions and leave, documenting as such.


A business with a posted sign has ALREADY asked you to leave if you are carrying. If you are just going to ignore that, it is tantamount to trespass. I'm pro 2A, but I'm also pro private property rights. Don't minimize the rights of the property holder. 2A protects your from government rules, but your individual rights end where they violate another's individual rights. Willfully violating their property rights because they might not notice is no different than trespassing across someone's pasture under the idea that you aren't hurtin nothin if nobody sees you.


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## DrParasite (Aug 2, 2022)

Summit said:


> A business with a posted sign has ALREADY asked you to leave if you are carrying. If you are just going to ignore that, it is tantamount to trespass. I'm pro 2A, but I'm also pro private property rights. Don't minimize the rights of the property holder. 2A protects your from government rules, but your individual rights end where they violate another's individual rights. Willfully violating their property rights because they might not notice is no different than trespassing across someone's pasture under the idea that you aren't hurtin nothin if nobody sees you.


100% correct.  and I agree, which is why I clearly said "I'm not saying this is ideal, just an option." I could have said "This isn't a great idea, but it's an option" if that would make you feel better.

The situation could be treated like an on duty law enforcement officer performing their duties.  I'm not a lawyer, but it could likely fall under the same exception they have.  IDK, that's an above my paygrade discussion.


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## Tigger (Aug 2, 2022)

DrParasite said:


> 100% correct.  and I agree, which is why I clearly said "I'm not saying this is ideal, just an option." I could have said "This isn't a great idea, but it's an option" if that would make you feel better.
> 
> The situation could be treated like an on duty law enforcement officer performing their duties.  I'm not a lawyer, but it could likely fall under the same exception they have.  IDK, that's an above my paygrade discussion.


Willfully breaking laws while on duty is not an option. I mean I guess by the definition of the word it is, but seems a bit absurd.


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## Carlos Danger (Aug 2, 2022)

Personally I’m all for absolutism in property rights, but that just isn’t how things work in our society. Property rights are limited in all sorts of ways; there are many examples. Look at public accommodation laws, for instance. Why would we accept that a private business owner can be forced to perform services that violate their own religious or moral convictions - even when the services requested are clearly intended as harassment - yet give them the choice to disallow law abiding citizens from discreetly possessing legally owned firearms while patronizing said business? It is well accepted that a business that is open to the public isn’t the same thing as a private residence, with respect to all sorts of things.   

If we otherwise accepted the idea that EMS professionals may choose to be armed after demonstrating appropriate competence, it seems that this issue would be solvable.


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## Phillyrube (Aug 2, 2022)

I was working part time as a medic while I was a cop.  Carried most of that time, no one knew, never needed it.
Just insurance


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## Summit (Aug 2, 2022)

DrParasite said:


> The situation could be treated like an on duty law enforcement officer performing their duties.  I'm not a lawyer, but it could likely fall under the same exception they have.


LEO are issued a duty weapon. It is part of their duty to be armed and capable of deadly force.

The vast vast vast majority of EMS has absolutely *no duty* to carry a gun even if their employer decides it is allowable.

This entire discussion is about wants and desires, not duties and needs.


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## DrParasite (Aug 2, 2022)

Summit said:


> This entire discussion is about wants and desires, not duties and needs.


you don't NEED to carry a weapon... no one is forcing you do so.  EMS providers have a DUTY to go home at the end of every shift; why shouldn't they be able to use all tools they are legally permitted to us to ensure that happens?

99.99% of providers (and cops) will never need to fire their weapon in self defense.... but that 0.01% of the time... and yes, examples have been provided previously where EMS providers did draw their CCW to defend themselves, so you can't say it would never happen.


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## DrParasite (Aug 2, 2022)

Summit said:


> A business with a posted sign has ALREADY asked you to leave if you are carrying. If you are just going to ignore that, it is tantamount to trespass.


Is that really how the law works?  If I put a sign on my business's door that says no White people allowed, does that mean I have have any white people who enter my establishment charged with trespassing?   What if I say no gays?  if two men walk into my store, and are holding hands, can I call PD to have them physically removed from the premises, and criminally charged? You don't even need to ask them to leave, the cops will simply physical remove them from the store because you have a sign on the door?  Can someone with a LEO background confirm?

I'm not a cop nor a lawyer, so I don't know the answer to that, but that sounds sketchy at best... at worst, it sounds like you are completely incorrect, and making up a claim that has little legal basis.  Didn't Starbucks get in trouble for calling the cops on two people who hadn't purchased anything and refused to leave when asked by the manager?  








						Starbucks manager told 911 of 2 men 'refusing to make a purchase or leave' before their arrests
					

The police release 911 call that initiated the controversial arrest of two African-American men at a downtown Philadelphia Starcks.




					abcnews.go.com
				



How did that go for the regional manager, and the manager, who were enforcing the sign, and the police department, who were enforcing the business's rights?


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## CCCSD (Aug 2, 2022)

DrParasite said:


> Is that really how the law works?  If I put a sign on my business's door that says no White people allowed, does that mean I have have any white people who enter my establishment charged with trespassing?   What if I say no gays?  if two men walk into my store, and are holding hands, can I call PD to have them physically removed from the premises, and criminally charged? You don't even need to ask them to leave, the cops will simply physical remove them from the store because you have a sign on the door?  Can someone with a LEO background confirm?
> 
> I'm not a cop nor a lawyer, so I don't know the answer to that, but that sounds sketchy at best... at worst, it sounds like you are completely incorrect, and making up a claim that has little legal basis.  Didn't Starbucks get in trouble for calling the cops on two people who hadn't purchased anything and refused to leave when asked by the manager?
> 
> ...


Yep. No guns means no guns. Enforceable by Law.
The courts have upheld that.

Your “argument “ using whites/gays is childish as it doesn’t apply but you are using it to create racial tension and visceral responses.


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## DrParasite (Aug 3, 2022)

CCCSD said:


> Yep. No guns means no guns. Enforceable by Law.
> The courts have upheld that.
> 
> Your “argument “ using whites/gays is childish as it doesn’t apply but you are using it to create racial tension and visceral responses.


please cite the court case that said that you don't need to verbally ask someone to leave before they can be charged with trespassing, from a public business that is open to the public. 

Not saying you're wrong, but if the court did uphold that, I'd be interested in reading the decision.


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## ffemt8978 (Aug 3, 2022)

DrParasite said:


> please cite the court case that said that you don't need to verbally ask someone to leave before they can be charged with trespassing, from a public business that is open to the public.
> 
> Not saying you're wrong, but if the court did uphold that, I'd be interested in reading the decision.


New York state just passed a law that said business owners have to post a sign saying firearms are allowed on the premises, with the presumption being no sign equals not allowed.   That's already facing a lawsuit though.


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## CCCSD (Aug 3, 2022)

DrParasite said:


> please cite the court case that said that you don't need to verbally ask someone to leave before they can be charged with trespassing, from a public business that is open to the public.
> 
> Not saying you're wrong, but if the court did uphold that, I'd be interested in reading the decision.


What part of my post said anything about verbal warnings.
Why do you always manipulate discussion to try to prove you are all knowing…


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## Akulahawk (Aug 4, 2022)

Summit said:


> A business with a posted sign has ALREADY asked you to leave if you are carrying. If you are just going to ignore that, it is tantamount to trespass. I'm pro 2A, but I'm also pro private property rights. Don't minimize the rights of the property holder. 2A protects your from government rules, but your individual rights end where they violate another's individual rights. Willfully violating their property rights because they might not notice is no different than trespassing across someone's pasture under the idea that you aren't hurtin nothin if nobody sees you.


Businesses that are open to the public have restrictions upon their property rights as it pertains to trespass and signage. They often may not be allowed to restrict just anyone they wish. A private residence is a different matter as it's not open to the public. A no weapons sign often carries no force of law with it as it often conveys a policy of the property owner. My hospital has signs like that all over the place. That's great. There aren't any means to detect weapons at any of the entrances and therefore security can't ask the person to leave to secure it somewhere as the person enters the facility. 

When I do carry, I usually ignore such signs on buildings that are open to the public because policy doesn't have force of law. There are certain buildings and places that are off limits (example PC 171b and 171c and 629.9) but those areas often contain exemptions for licensed individuals. As I am licensed, I may ignore 171b as I'm exempt. 171c and 626.9 are very specific as to where I may not carry. Public hospitals fall under 171b, private hospitals only have policy "protecting" them.


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## Summit (Aug 4, 2022)

Sounds like some state-specific stuff. My statement is generally true in an ethical sense even if some states have legal loopholes


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## mgr22 (Aug 4, 2022)

Summit said:


> Sounds like some state-specific stuff. My statement is generally true in an ethical sense even if some states have legal loopholes


This could involve a decision not to exercise rights -- an underrated way of getting along with each other. For example, I can't imagine arguing the fine points of the Second Amendment with a business owner who asks customers not to carry. Even if it's my right, it's their store. I can leave the gun in the car or shop somewhere else.


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## DrParasite (Aug 4, 2022)

The original statement was as follows


Summit said:


> A business with a posted sign has *ALREADY asked* you to leave if you are carrying.


To which I asked "Is that really how the law works?"
Then you said:


CCCSD said:


> Yep. No guns means no guns. Enforceable by Law.
> The courts have upheld that.


So when I asked for the case law that you stated was upheld by the courts (which is exactly what was stated previously, that the sign implies that you were "*ALREADY asked* you to leave if you are carrying"


CCCSD said:


> What part of my post said anything about verbal warnings.


it seems that you either provided incorrect information, neglected to read the statement, or tried to make a statement that had no factual basis.  And when you were called out on it, you got defensive and tried to deflect, instead of admitting that your statement was wrong


CCCSD said:


> Why do you always manipulate discussion to try to prove you are all knowing…


I'm not all knowing, I just asked a simple question... Sadly, I do seem to know more than you.  which is embarrassing, because you claim to have law enforcement background.


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## DrParasite (Aug 4, 2022)

mgr22 said:


> This could involve a decision not to exercise rights -- an underrated way of getting along with each other. For example, I can't imagine arguing the fine points of the Second Amendment with a business owner who asks customers not to carry.


That's true.  However, if your firearm is concealed, and they shouldn't even know you are carrying.  And since your not violating the law, why bother having the conversation in the first place?  


mgr22 said:


> Even if it's my right, it's their store. I can leave the gun in the car or shop somewhere else.


You absolutely can.  But why should you?  

We are getting off on a bigger tangent here, but let me ask this: if a gunman enters the store, armed with a firearm, and points it at the owner, demanding that he empty the register... and you draw your firearm and neutralize the threat... do you think the owner will demand that you leave the store?  or thank you?  and if they don't know, is there really that big of an issue?


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## mgr22 (Aug 4, 2022)

DrParasite said:


> You absolutely can.  But why should you?
> 
> We are getting off on a bigger tangent here, but let me ask this: if a gunman enters the store, armed with a firearm, and points it at the owner, demanding that he empty the register... and you draw your firearm and neutralize the threat... do you think the owner will demand that you leave the store?  or thank you?  and if they don't know, is there really that big of an issue?


Would you be okay with someone ignoring your wishes as long as you didn't know about it?


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## Summit (Aug 4, 2022)

My momma always told me, "just cuz you have the right to do something doesn't always make it right thing to do." So that applies to legal loopholes in this discussion.


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## DrParasite (Aug 4, 2022)

mgr22 said:


> Would you be okay with someone ignoring your wishes as long as you didn't know about it?


to be perfectly honest?  Yes.  Absolutely.

If I don't know about it, and it doesn't affect me, than I really won't care about it.  It's not something I would lose sleep over.

There is so much concern over "omg, what would people think" and "you're breaking the rules" and "would someone please think of the children" but I'm of the belief that if it doesn't affect me, than I don't care.  

I can say I am 100% against illegal drugs, but if my worker shows up with drugs in his or her system, as long as his/her performance isn't effected, and he or she is doing his job, I really don't care.  Now, if something happens that does affect me, that's a different story.

So yeah, if you are carrying concealed in a court house, on an airplane, at a school, on the ambulance or <insert your gun free zone here>, I really don't care.  Now, if that weapon come out, and I become aware of it... then my opinion changes drastically.


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## Summit (Aug 4, 2022)

DrParasite said:


> to be perfectly honest?  Yes.  Absolutely.
> 
> There is so much concern over "omg, what would people think" and "you're breaking the rules"


Moral character is best demonstrated by what you do when nobody is looking. I always appreciate when people advertise openly.


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## DrParasite (Aug 4, 2022)

Summit said:


> Moral character is best demonstrated by what you do when nobody is looking. I always appreciate when people advertise openly.


the phrase is "Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is looking."

In this case, just because someone disagrees with what I'm doing, doesn't make it morally wrong, esp if their belief conflicts with an explicitly granted right in this country.  Sorry your feeling are hurt, but they don't trump mine.


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## Summit (Aug 4, 2022)

You are explicitly saying you are OK to violate the rights and wishes of others so long as you don't think they will find out, and so long as it doesn't, in your opinion, cause harm. Not hurting my feelings. I appreciate your candor.


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## DrParasite (Aug 4, 2022)

Summit said:


> You are explicitly saying you are OK to violate the rights and wishes of others so long as you don't think they will find out, and so long as it doesn't, in your opinion, cause harm. Not hurting my feelings. I appreciate your candor.


No.... The question I was asked was "Would you be okay with *someone [else] *ignoring your wishes as long as you didn't know about it?"  and I said I would be ok with that. 

I'm not violating anyone's rights (see @Akulahawk's post above).  And the wishes and desires of others don't override my wishes and desires.  And if you don't like that, well, sorry you feel that way, but it has nothing to do with my moral character, despite your erroneous claims.

Please stop claiming I explicitly said something that I never said.  You should work on actually reading what was said,


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## CCCSD (Aug 4, 2022)

DrParasite said:


> No.... The question I was asked was "Would you be okay with *someone [else] *ignoring your wishes as long as you didn't know about it?"  and I said I would be ok with that.
> 
> I'm not violating anyone's rights (see @Akulahawk's post above).  And the wishes and desires of others don't override my wishes and desires.  And if you don't like that, well, sorry you feel that way, but it has nothing to do with my moral character, despite your erroneous claims.
> 
> Please stop claiming I explicitly said something that I never said.  You should work on actually reading what was said,


Sort of what you do with other’s posts..?


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## ffemt8978 (Aug 4, 2022)

This thread has been doing really well so far, so please keep it that way and lay off the sniping at each other.


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## johnrsemt (Aug 13, 2022)

Dr. Parasite:  depends on how the state law is written:  in Indiana for example it is NOT breaking the law if a business has a sign that says no guns.  It is a request, and they can ask for you to leave, and if you don't they can call the police and ask for you to be trespassed off premises; but nothing to do with the firearm.  Which protected the gentleman that stopped the mass shooter in the Mall.
In other states it is written that it is a law.  Because Gun Free Zones stop gun crimes, because criminals see the signs and don't go into stores with those signs because it is illegal for them.


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## DrParasite (Aug 15, 2022)

johnrsemt said:


> Dr. Parasite:  depends on how the state law is written:  in Indiana for example it is NOT breaking the law if a business has a sign that says no guns.  It is a request, and they can ask for you to leave, and if you don't they can call the police and ask for you to be trespassed off premises; but nothing to do with the firearm.  Which protected the gentleman that stopped the mass shooter in the Mall.


That's exactly my point.


johnrsemt said:


> In other states it is written that it is a law.  Because Gun Free Zones stop gun crimes, because criminals see the signs and don't go into stores with those signs because it is illegal for them.


and that is why there are never gun crimes committed in any of these gun free zones, like in schools, places of worship, and large public gatherings.


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