# People never cease to amaze me.......



## Flight-LP (Mar 19, 2007)

They :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: about the time it took EMS to get to the plane which while unfortunate, is completely understandable, yet only one offered their assistance. Fu&$#n hypocrites!

What if they would have been in the air? Pretty sure it would have taken longer!

http://www.firefightingnews.com/article.cfm?articleID=27036


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## firecoins (Mar 19, 2007)

flight attendants seem to lack proper training.  If a nurse is on board, wouldn't she be able to use a defib that the plane had?


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## chico.medic (Mar 19, 2007)

Anyone ever taken a prisoner as a patient out of any state penitentiary?  Back when I was an EMT I worked in Susanville, Ca.  It took at least 10 min. to get to High Desert State prison, which was located on the outskirts of town, and at least another 20 min. to get inside to the infirmary.  You had to get through the main gate of the prison, then wind through a series of gates and check points, then finally you drove into a sally port w/ armed guards in towers to the left and right of you.  There was a grate on the ground, w/ a guard checking the underside of the ambulance.  Another guard checked all the compartments and under the bench seat, and we had to provide two forms of ID (A DL and our employee ID's).  Then, when finally inside w/ our pt, the guards had to ID him/her, two guards in the ambulance, two in a chase car, and we went through the whole process again to get back outside. :wacko:   

I can imagine that w/ the heightened security at airports these days,  the responding ambulance had to wait a while, like the article said, for an escort to the plane.


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## Glorified (Mar 19, 2007)

more the police personnel's fault.


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## Recycled Words (Mar 19, 2007)

Jesus, this isn't the EMTs fault, it's the airline and the cops!


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## medman123 (Mar 19, 2007)

"Police -- whom DiFulco said were considered medical first responders at Kennedy -- did not help flight staff who were struggling with an onboard defibrillator, said passenger Harold Bush, 41, of Shirley."

That makes no sense to me. AEDs TALK to you and tell you what to do. The flight staff should know how to use one.


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## Flight-LP (Mar 19, 2007)

Interesting viewpoints. This story bothers me from the standpoint that as usual, the media and public view will prevail as "what actually happened". As a professional pilot (and acquaintance to the flight deck crew) and a Paramedic, I can attest that neither the flight crew, EMS, nor the Police were in the wrong. The bottom line is that this gentleman experienced a fatal MI, plain and simple. There was no "issues with the AED", he was asystolic and thus the AED would not shock. Regardless, CPR was performed the entire time until the arrival of EMS. It took EMS 8 minutes to get to the airport, not too bad in anyone's book. Now they have to wait for the police escort and be cleared by ground control to move about on the apron and up the taxiway to the aircraft. This in itself is not an easy feat, anyone who has ever flown into JFK can attest to that. It's not as simple as just stopping everyone, that is very difficult to do when you have simultaneous approaches in use with planes landing every 2 minutes. As far as the police are concerned, there really wasn't anything for them to do and there was sufficient personnel attending to the patient with BLS CPR in place (2 flight attendants and the nurse). The statement made by the male passenger is purely opinion and there was a very valid reason why the Port Authority Police didn't take control of the scene; they didn't have the jurisdiction. That aircraft under federal regulation is to remain under the control of the flight crew with duties delegated as the captain deems fit. As unfortunate as the outcome was, it is a fact of life, people die. Its too bad that the media has to boast it! I personally believe had it not been Jet Blue (due to their recent negative media publicity), then the coverage wouldn't be near as much. Things like this happen quite often, I know of several flights that I have had where passengers have coded. You do what you can with what you have..............


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## Jon (Mar 20, 2007)

Flight-LP - Do you fly commercial aircraft? I didn't know that.

I  understand the police escort, I understand the 8 minute response time from dispatch to on location at Kennedy.

What I'm wondering over are 2 time periods. 7 minutes from PAPD activation to EMS activation. PAPD has at least one ALS rig onsite at JFK, and I think more than that... If a PAPD EMS unit wasn't availible... than FDNY*EMS should have been sent, immediatly, to cover the call... not wait for the cops to get there.

And 7 minutes to wait for an escort? I work at a small, gated campus. One of our procedures is that in the event of a medical emergency, one of our officers, in a vehicle, stands by at the entry gate used by EMS to escort them... because they get lost on our SMALL campus. Shouldn't PAPD automatically send a car to standby at X gate to escort EMS?

Also... the article is unclear... it seems to indicate that the plane might have still be at the ramp... if it was, I'm pretty sure PAPD / JFK EMS has an internal response team for incidents inside the airport.


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## BossyCow (Mar 21, 2007)

Flight-LP said:


> Interesting viewpoints. This story bothers me from the standpoint that as usual, the media and public view will prevail as "what actually happened". .............



I have found often that what the paper says is seldom correct.  They are writing a story based on what they thought they heard someone say. Our line of work has a heavy emphasis on accuracy.  Our reports have to be correct, legal, and may be required to save our butts in court years later.  Newspapers are used to wrap garbage, housbreak puppies and line the bird cage.  

The only thing that surprises me with this is the supposed surprise being expressed that the reporting is not clear.


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## Flight-LP (Mar 21, 2007)

BossyCow said:


> I have found often that what the paper says is seldom correct.  They are writing a story based on what they thought they heard someone say. Our line of work has a heavy emphasis on accuracy.  Our reports have to be correct, legal, and may be required to save our butts in court years later.  Newspapers are used to wrap garbage, housbreak puppies and line the bird cage.
> 
> The only thing that surprises me with this is the supposed surprise being expressed that the reporting is not clear.



True, but who is Joe Schmo going to believe???? The media is the final word to most ignorant citizens.................


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## Flight-LP (Mar 21, 2007)

Jon said:


> Flight-LP - Do you fly commercial aircraft? I didn't know that.
> 
> I  understand the police escort, I understand the 8 minute response time from dispatch to on location at Kennedy.
> 
> ...



Currently flying for an on-demand Part 135 Charter operation, soon to be flying for a Continental Express carrier (previously flew for a NWA carrier, but was furloughed)................

Jon, as you are probably aware, JFK is not a "small, gated campus". Ground ops there are an absolute nightmare. Clearance must be given to move around on the ramp, and yes the plane was on the ramp, not at the gate. It couldn't return, another aircraft was already parked. It would have taken a lot longer for ground control and airport ops to get another gate than it did for PAPD and EMS to arrive. Yea, the time isn't optimal, but it will be a cold day in hell before that airport stops everything else to deal with one passenger issue. Cruel, maybe, but when evaluated against the "big picture" of airport ops, airline logistics, and HUGE amount of revenue loss secondary to a domino effect, the outcome does not outweigh the benefit for all involved. I completely understand how and why the chain of events occured. Can't say I'd do any different, but I digress as I wasn't there.........Stay safe!


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## Jon (Mar 27, 2007)

Flight-LP said:


> Currently flying for an on-demand Part 135 Charter operation, soon to be flying for a Continental Express carrier (previously flew for a NWA carrier, but was furloughed)................
> 
> Jon, as you are probably aware, JFK is not a "small, gated campus". Ground ops there are an absolute nightmare. Clearance must be given to move around on the ramp, and yes the plane was on the ramp, not at the gate. It couldn't return, another aircraft was already parked. It would have taken a lot longer for ground control and airport ops to get another gate than it did for PAPD and EMS to arrive. Yea, the time isn't optimal, but it will be a cold day in hell before that airport stops everything else to deal with one passenger issue. Cruel, maybe, but when evaluated against the "big picture" of airport ops, airline logistics, and HUGE amount of revenue loss secondary to a domino effect, the outcome does not outweigh the benefit for all involved. I completely understand how and why the chain of events occured. Can't say I'd do any different, but I digress as I wasn't there.........Stay safe!


 
What I meant by "gate" regarding an escort was to have a PAPD car stage at the access gate to the tarmac that the EMS crew will be directed to.. that way, the escort is already there.

But yes.... I understand... my "Small" campus is just a little different than JFK


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## Tincanfireman (Mar 28, 2007)

My airport is nowhere near the size of JFK or Atlanta, but we do get our share of medicals, both on the ground and IFE (inflight emergency) diverts.  While our tower personnel do a fantastic job of expediting emergency aircraft, you have to remember that they are also responsible for the lives of every other person in every other plane as well.  Cutting corners to save one life can easily endanger hundreds of other lives in other aircraft.  It's not that they don't care (we often get calls from the tower folks requesting information on how the passenger did), it's that they have a larger scope of responsibility than just the stricken pax.  In addition, every vehicle has to get Ground Control clearance to go anywhere on a ramp or taxiway at many airports.  Again, Ground will do all they can, but there's only x-amount of room for x-amount of vehicles, and some of those vehicles have thousands of gallons of jet fuel and up to 500 people on them. I also suspect, based on past experience, that the truth will lay somewhere between what the passengers reported and what the newspaper wrote.  We like to say that the media never lets the truth get in the way of a good story, and that seems the case here. It's too bad the gentleman passed, but (as Flight mentioned), people are gonna die.  It's our job to do as much as we can with the tools and knowledge we have, but sometimes circumstances (aka Murphy) will take a hand at the table, too.  Just my .02 from "inside the fence"...


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## oldschoolmedic (Mar 28, 2007)

Having grown up in NY I have flown out of JFK on numerous occasions there is no way to put its size in perspective unless you have been there. Go to Google maps and look at JFK on satellite imagery, it's huge (not like Hart Field or Dallas/Ft Worth but still flippin' big.) Now as a primary arrival/departure hub for most major airlines on the east coast, as well as european flights, you can imagine how busy it is. Not to mention in close proximity are LaGuardia and Newark, both busy airports in their own rights. In the google image there is a plane taking off, one taxiing, and one on the apron, etc... One person becomes insignificant unfortunately compared to the chaos that would be created by trying to stop operations on that scale. We do our best and people still die, sad truth of our job, can we ask more of them? This is getting media play simply because it was JetBlue.


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## firecoins (Mar 28, 2007)

JFK is big, not just in size but in its size compared with how busy it is.  As stated already, the various controllers are responisble for the safety of many people and can not take short cuts cause of a code.  

JFK on an airplane that left the gate is a bad place to code.


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## FF894 (May 21, 2007)

I understand the part about the ambulance having to wait for an escort, although it is very surprising the airport fire department does not have their own for an airport that large.  Which brings me to the fire department, where were they!?  The police were there right away but didnt do anything.  Are they the primary emergency medical response team?  In Boston,Massport has engines on seen anywhere in the airport within minutes and they begin medical care.  If the medical is on the tarmac, an ambulance will be escorted on in about the time the article says (7-8 minutes)  My point is that the fire trucks have immediat access to the tarmac and anywhere else in the airport.  They have direct communication with the tower ground control to coordinate their response around all other vehicles in the area to include planes, fuel trucks, all other utility trucks on the feild.  Does anyone know how JFK operates?  (other than what is said from the article?)


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## FF894 (May 21, 2007)

Oh yeah, in a sort of related story which sparked a few policy changes:  This happened a few years ago now so the details are a little fuzzy but the main jist of it is on the subway system in Boston a person had a heart attack and at the time the policy was to have the train continue to its destination (stopping at every stop along the way) until EMS was able to meet them at a stop.  The person died because it took an extended period of time to coordinate which stop that was going to be.  Off the top of my head it was in the area of 10+ min i think.  I believe they have now changed the policy so that if a medical emergency should occur on board, the train will stop at the first area of the track with access and have the emergency responders meet them there.  Not absolutly sure if that is in effect though.


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