# How Far is Too Far...



## Handsome Rob (May 25, 2011)

On the subject of enforced discipline and training within an IFT company. Do you all agree with or disagree with the following scenario:

EMT/Medic is hired and told that this job will be extremely fast-paced and paramiltaristic. Said employee is assigned a rank of Probie and expected to be working for the entire 10 hour shift (cleaning, studying, etc.) with minimal down time. Employees may test and promote to higher ranks with time and performance. Rank structure is strictly enforced and even includes lower ranks addressing superiors by "sir" or "ma'am". 

The majority of the new employees have no idea about such strict discipline and get a little lost. Many feel intimidated by the structure and are visibly uncomfortable when superiors enter the room. However; overall performance and knowledge of the feild is improving dramatically. 

What do you think? Too strict or full steam ahead?


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## JPINFV (May 25, 2011)

Which company is this?

If someone seriously expected me to address another EMT or paramedic by "sir" or "ma'am" simply because I'm new, I'm not sure if I could keep a straight face and keep myself from bursting with laughter. Especially at an IFT company...


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## HotelCo (May 25, 2011)

IFT? No.


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## Tommerag (May 25, 2011)

There is a company that actually does that? I would have to agree with JP I would have a hard time keeping a straight face.


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## usalsfyre (May 25, 2011)

HandsomeRob said:


> On the subject of enforced discipline and training within an IFT company. Do you all agree with or disagree with the following scenario:
> 
> EMT/Medic is hired and told that this job will be extremely fast-paced and paramiltaristic. Said employee is assigned a rank of Probie and expected to be working for the entire 10 hour shift (cleaning, studying, etc.) with minimal down time. Employees may test and promote to higher ranks with time and performance. Rank structure is strictly enforced and even includes lower ranks addressing superiors by "sir" or "ma'am".
> 
> ...



The d-baggery is strong here. 

This crap is stupid as hell when FDs perpetrate it, why drag EMS into this kind of behavior? It encourages hazing (not harmless pranks, honest to God lateral, organization promoted violence) and generally suppresses original thought, which is what EMS relies on. 

Who really thinks this is a good idea?


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## marcus2011 (May 25, 2011)

There are some fd's who practice this kind of hazing. But in the end hazing will make some of your best new prospects leave and what are you stuck with then?


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## abckidsmom (May 25, 2011)

I am a real fan of discipline, and I would like to see more time spent on task when not on calls, and not just on facebook, but the rank stuff is a load of crap.

I will respect you because you are respectable, not because you have been there 6 months more than me, and for sure not because you've passed some regurgitate and forget it test generated by some too big for it's britches IFT company.

I attended a week of continuing ed at a fire department near here when they were running a rookie school.  Whenever they walked down the hallway, in their suits, with shiny shoes, every. single. one. of the 30 or so guys gave a "Good Morning, ma'am" every time they passed anyone.  

This level of indoctrination does not show respect.  It's uncomfortable, humiliating and bizarre.

Real respect is earned, not demanded.


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## 46Young (May 25, 2011)

abckidsmom said:


> I am a real fan of discipline, and I would like to see more time spent on task when not on calls, and not just on facebook, but the rank stuff is a load of crap.
> 
> I will respect you because you are respectable, not because you have been there 6 months more than me, and for sure not because you've passed some regurgitate and forget it test generated by some too big for it's britches IFT company.
> 
> ...



Yeah, that recruit school stuff is a joke. When I went through, I was told to "just play the game." That's what it is, a game. A few weeks out of the academy, and we're hanging out in bars with our instructors, going to ball games, getting hammered and such. A month ago they were making us do punitive pushups for not shining our shoes well enough.

As for the OP, one IFT company I worked for one supervisor insisted on being called Captain. Not sir, not his last name, but Captain. It was his title, but still. It's a freakin private fly by night IFT operation. Get over yourself, and go project your insecurities onto someone else.


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## JPINFV (May 25, 2011)

46Young said:


> As for the OP, one IFT company I worked for one supervisor insisted on being called Captain. Not sir, not his last name, but Captain.




Captain Morgan? 

/no, I don't want a little Captain in me...


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## DesertMedic66 (May 25, 2011)

If that's how the company wants to operate then I have no problem with that. If an employee doesn't like it then they don't have to work there. That's my view of it at least.


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## 46Young (May 25, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> Captain Morgan?
> 
> /no, I don't want a little Captain in me...



Lol

I would just call them Cap'n Crunch.


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## abckidsmom (May 25, 2011)

46Young said:


> Lol
> 
> I would just call them Cap'n Crunch.



I like to call guys like that Captain America or Captain Planet.

Remember the theme song?  "Captain Pla-net!  He's our HE-RO!  Gonna take pollution down to ze-ro!"


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## 46Young (May 25, 2011)

firefite said:


> If that's how the company wants to operate then I have no problem with that. If an employee doesn't like it then they don't have to work there. That's my view of it at least.



Fire and police can get away with it due to their paramilitary roots and tradition. A company, a business on the other hand, not so much. I don't go into a hospital and call a nurse a Lieutenent, the ED tech a private, the CNA probie scum, the PA a Colonel, or the Attending MD a General. That would be silly. I'm thinking that people who volunteer with fire and EMS try and take that mentality to the IFT company where they work FT. If they can't get on somewhere as a paid FF, find themselves outside the social click at their vollie house or decide that fire is too dangerous for them but still want to hold a rank like in the fire service to build themselves up and feel superior to subordinates, you get the d-bags who want to be called LT or whatever.


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## 46Young (May 25, 2011)

abckidsmom said:


> I like to call guys like that Captain America or Captain Planet.
> 
> Remember the theme song?  "Captain Pla-net!  He's our HE-RO!  Gonna take pollution down to ze-ro!"



Yesssss!


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## JPINFV (May 25, 2011)

46Young said:


> Fire and police can get away with it due to their paramilitary roots and tradition.


I think the bigger thing is organization. Even with a medical MCI, EMS is still largely a small group working on one patient, and even then it should be one person in charge and then the help (nothing wrong with being the help and the person in charge shouldn't be doing anything but issuing orders, provided enough people). This isn't a house fire where the battalion chief is issuing orders to company officers who are issuing orders to individual fire fighters as there isn't anyone over the head of the medic in charge. This isn't the police where larger incidents have similar delegation issues. 

If it wasn't for those delegation issues, there would be very little reason to have "captains" or "lieutenants" or the like in the other services. Even then, respect has to be earned past being able to pin something on your collar.


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## DesertMedic66 (May 25, 2011)

46Young said:


> Fire and police can get away with it due to their paramilitary roots and tradition. A company, a business on the other hand, not so much. I don't go into a hospital and call a nurse a Lieutenent, the ED tech a private, the CNA probie scum, the PA a Colonel, or the Attending MD a General. That would be silly. I'm thinking that people who volunteer with fire and EMS try and take that mentality to the IFT company where they work FT. If they can't get on somewhere as a paid FF, find themselves outside the social click at their vollie house or decide that fire is too dangerous for them but still want to hold a rank like in the fire service to build themselves up and feel superior to subordinates, you get the d-bags who want to be called LT or whatever.



I'm not saying that EMS should or shouldn't do it. It's the companies choice on that. Some people may view it as going to far. And others may not view it that way. If you don't like the way a company operates then you don't have to work for them is all I was really saying.


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## abckidsmom (May 25, 2011)

firefite said:


> I'm not saying that EMS should or shouldn't do it. It's the companies choice on that. Some people may view it as going to far. And others may not view it that way. If you don't like the way a company operates then you don't have to work for them is all I was really saying.



Yeah, but at a certain point, it's just ridiculous, anyway.  Like the people with lightbars on their POVs, it's reaching too hard for coolness that just isn't cool.


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## DesertMedic66 (May 25, 2011)

abckidsmom said:


> Yeah, but at a certain point, it's just ridiculous, anyway.  Like the people with lightbars on their POVs, it's reaching too hard for coolness that just isn't cool.



It's all a matter of life style and location. Some places it might be standard practice to put lightbars on POVs, where as other areas it is seen as just plain stupid. As to the OP I don't think it's too far. But I am a huge fan of the paramilitary aspect. And as the OP stated the company is getting better daily from it. If it is making a company get better and better then what's the harm in keeping it that way? If people don't like the paramilitary aspect then they don't have to work for the company.


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## JPINFV (May 26, 2011)

There's nothing saying that what's considered standard practice isn't just stupid. If someone has a valid need for a lightbar, then they have a valid need for a take home car provided by their agency.


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## Handsome Rob (May 26, 2011)

Awesome. I'll reply more in the a.m. keep it coming!


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## DesertMedic66 (May 26, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> There's nothing saying that what's considered standard practice isn't just stupid. If someone has a valid need for a lightbar, then they have a valid need for a take home car provided by their agency.



but there is nothing saying that is stupid (I know there are stuff that is stupid so no need to post examples.) yes they have a valid need for a take home car provided by their agency but with the way the economy is, is that really practical? whats cheaper for the company, buying a car for employees to take home or just having employees put lightbars on their own vehicle? Our supervisors are rolling around town in cars that were donated by employees some years ago.


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## Handsome Rob (May 26, 2011)

abckidsmom said:


> I am a real fan of discipline, and I would like to see more time spent on task when not on calls, and not just on facebook, but the rank stuff is a load of crap.
> 
> I will respect you because you are respectable, not because you have been there 6 months more than me, and for sure not because you've passed some regurgitate and forget it test generated by some too big for it's britches IFT company.
> 
> ...



Interesting. Why is calling someone sir or ma'am humiliating? I agree that respect is earned, I'm just struck by the strength of opposition here. 

Also, to be fair, this company actually opposes the whole "seniority" bit. The testing and rank structure is based off of performance and medical knowledge regardless of your lenth of employement.


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## abckidsmom (May 26, 2011)

HandsomeRob said:


> Interesting. Why is calling someone sir or ma'am humiliating? I agree that respect is earned, I'm just struck by the strength of opposition here.
> 
> Also, to be fair, this company actually opposes the whole "seniority" bit. The testing and rank structure is based off of performance and medical knowledge regardless of your lenth of employement.



How is a general person supposed to react, in a casual environment, when a line of 30 identically dressed men in suits murmur a 45 second "g'morning ma'am"?  Most people are extremely uncomfortable.  

I tried hard to look each one in the eye and greet them, but when you're passing for the third time in a day, it's just ridiculous, and you laugh.  Or, I did, anyway.  Maybe I'm just immature, but these guys are starting their careers as firefighters and they have to make *me* uncomfortable with their overwhelming greeting?


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## usalsfyre (May 26, 2011)

HandsomeRob said:


> Interesting. Why is calling someone sir or ma'am humiliating? I agree that respect is earned, I'm just struck by the strength of opposition here.
> 
> Also, to be fair, this company actually opposes the whole "seniority" bit. The testing and rank structure is based off of performance and medical knowledge regardless of your lenth of employement.



But why the paramilitary bit, other than whackers trying to feel important. 

The whole thing has a the feel of...


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## Handsome Rob (May 26, 2011)

usalsfyre said:


> But why the paramilitary bit, other than whackers trying to feel important.
> 
> The whole thing has a the feel of...



LMFOA...i dig it. I guess the paramilitary bit would be the result of people not listening to reasoning. From my understanding, the whole thing came about after the employees constantly gaffed off patient care and SOP's because they felt it was "just an IFT company"


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## Gray (May 26, 2011)

Where respect is earned, respect is given. I was raised to call anyone who was my elder Sir or Ma'am. But calling someone Captain because they are some whacker who is on an ego trip due to him/her spending $4000 on custom crocodile skin Mangum boots would be over the top. If your being called Ma'am or Sir don't feel uncomfortable, take it as simple politeness and respect they are showing you.


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## Handsome Robb (May 26, 2011)

I hate being called sir. Makes me feel old.


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## Gray (May 26, 2011)

abckidsmom said:


> How is a general person supposed to react, in a casual environment, when a line of 30 identically dressed men in suits murmur a 45 second "g'morning ma'am"?  Most people are extremely uncomfortable.
> 
> I tried hard to look each one in the eye and greet them, but when you're passing for the third time in a day, it's just ridiculous, and you laugh.  Or, I did, anyway.  Maybe I'm just immature, but these guys are starting their careers as firefighters and they have to make *me* uncomfortable with their overwhelming greeting?




LOL, I imagine that's a tough spot. I would of used humor. A simple 'At ease Gentlemen" would of gotten you off the hook and a few smiles and smirks.


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## Handsome Rob (May 26, 2011)

the one thing I've noticed throughout all of the responses is that most people assume that because someone implements a structure or ranks system, that they are insecure a-holes, whackers (lol), or whatever. In general, it is quite apparent that either a) ost people in EMS HATE structured systems, or b) there is far too much misuse and abuse of titles in this industry. Or both. lol


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## abckidsmom (May 26, 2011)

HandsomeRob said:


> the one thing I've noticed throughout all of the responses is that most people assume that because someone implements a structure or ranks system, that they are insecure a-holes, whackers (lol), or whatever. In general, it is quite apparent that either a) ost people in EMS HATE structured systems, or b) there is far too much misuse and abuse of titles in this industry. Or both. lol



I just think that you can do structure without being ridiculous about it.  EMS, the red-headed stepchild, is neither medicine nor public safety, neither military nor fire nor private business.  Lots of independent thinking drives good providers of EMS, and those rigid kinds of thinking can squelch free thought.


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## Handsome Rob (May 26, 2011)

abckidsmom said:


> I just think that you can do structure without being ridiculous about it.  EMS, the red-headed stepchild, is neither medicine nor public safety, neither military nor fire nor private business.  Lots of independent thinking drives good providers of EMS, and those rigid kinds of thinking can squelch free thought.



I agree, but this standpoint is based on the assumption that the employees are both capable (harsh, I know) and driven to free thought. I know we've all seen it; the EMT/Medic that just wants to do the bare minimum. In this case, by demanding so much more from each individual employee, the "bare minimum" becomes high enough not to kill all of the patients...

Case in point: one of the medics at this company absolutely refuses to engage EMT's in medical discussions, doesn't help out around station, etc. When dispatched to a CP call, no interventions were made AT ALL. The medic called 911 despite being less than a mile from a STEMI center. Bare minimum.


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## abckidsmom (May 26, 2011)

HandsomeRob said:


> I agree, but this standpoint is based on the assumption that the employees are both capable (harsh, I know) and driven to free thought. I know we've all seen it; the EMT/Medic that just wants to do the bare minimum. In this case, by demanding so much more from each individual employee, the "bare minimum" becomes high enough not to kill all of the patients...
> 
> Case in point: one of the medics at this company absolutely refuses to engage EMT's in medical discussions, doesn't help out around station, etc. When dispatched to a CP call, no interventions were made AT ALL. The medic called 911 despite being less than a mile from a STEMI center. Bare minimum.



All of these discussions come back to education because education is the problem.  You can't solve an educational problem with a militaristic discipline.

Free thought is really mandatory for good medicine.


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## Harvey (May 26, 2011)

Punitive Pushups? I'll have to respectfully decline. I'm not in the Marines anymore.


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## Handsome Rob (May 26, 2011)

Harvey said:


> Punitive Pushups? I'll have to respectfully decline. I'm not in the Marines anymore.



Neither am I...but you do have to agree that pain retains, no?


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## IAems (May 26, 2011)

*You're right, but missing something*



abckidsmom said:


> All of these discussions come back to education because education is the problem.  You can't solve an educational problem with a militaristic discipline.
> 
> Free thought is really mandatory for good medicine.



It's not _just_ an educational problem . . . it's a pride problem.  Look at all these posts "just an IFT company", "IFT No", "for IFT, I'd laugh at you".  I didn't realize IFT patients didn't require medical care.  This community looks down on IFT company's (and I'm not saying that it's not generally justified to do so), but how is a supervisor supposed to instill a sense of pride in their _*IFT*_ employees so they don't fall into the pitfall of burnout?  The answer, I believe, is to make this job something that is difficult to accomplish and the best way to do that is through discipline.  If they have pride, they will _want_ to have greater medical knowledge, _want_ to be further educated, and _want_ to grow as providers, not for the company but for themselves, because, honestly, the mentality of "just IFT" kills patients.  I've seen it.


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## Handsome Rob (May 26, 2011)

IAems said:


> It's not _just_ an educational problem . . . it's a pride problem.  Look at all these posts "just an IFT company", "IFT No", "for IFT, I'd laugh at you".  I didn't realize IFT patients didn't require medical care.  This community looks down on IFT company's (and I'm not saying that it's not generally justified to do so), but how is a supervisor supposed to instill a sense of pride in their _*IFT*_ employees so they don't fall into the pitfall of burnout?  The answer, I believe, is to make this job something that is difficult to accomplish and the best way to do that is through discipline.  If they have pride, they will _want_ to have greater medical knowledge, _want_ to be further educated, and _want_ to grow as providers, not for the company but for themselves, because, honestly, the mentality of "just IFT" kills patients.  I've seen it.



Very well stated, sir. I'd work for you...lol


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## JPINFV (May 26, 2011)

NVRob said:


> I hate being called sir. Makes me feel old.


Heck, at the current time I can see myself walking into a patient's room and saying, "Hi, I'm JPINFV and I'm going to be your doctor today." If they want to call me "Doctor" sure, but I didn't get into this field for a new salutation.


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## JPINFV (May 26, 2011)

IAems said:


> It's not _just_ an educational problem . . . it's a pride problem.  Look at all these posts "just an IFT company", "IFT No", "for IFT, I'd laugh at you".  I didn't realize IFT patients didn't require medical care.  This community looks down on IFT company's (and I'm not saying that it's not generally justified to do so), but how is a supervisor supposed to instill a sense of pride in their _*IFT*_ employees so they don't fall into the pitfall of burnout?  The answer, I believe, is to make this job something that is difficult to accomplish and the best way to do that is through discipline.  If they have pride, they will _want_ to have greater medical knowledge, _want_ to be further educated, and _want_ to grow as providers, not for the company but for themselves, because, honestly, the mentality of "just IFT" kills patients.  I've seen it.



How is making employees go around calling people who've been around longer (or can I immediately test for higher "ranks?") instill either discipline or pride?

Also, I don't care if this is 911 or IFT. There's two ranks on the vast vast majority of EMS calls, the person in charge and the help, and the help doesn't need to be calling the person in charge "sir" or "ma'am."


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## mycrofft (May 26, 2011)

*Let the market decide.*

*(NOTE: SEE AERINSOL'S REPLY BELOW. MAKES ME RECONSIDER MY REPLY. NONETHELESS:   )*If they can attract and keep enough quality workers and the service they provide is superior, then why not? Discriminatory, personally destructive or illegal personel practices can be sorted out there or in court if need be. If people dlon't like their style, they won't hire on or won't stay. Personally, I wouldn't. Been there, done that, even military is rarely that stiff.

Strict structure does not mean hazing. Hazing is a separate issue involving physical and/or mental _*abuse*_, and the worst I ever saw (as an EMS worker) involved fraternities. Doing things to make people follow a paramilitary norm can easily be overdone, but you figure out if it is one dope or the whole system, then either fight the dope, or quit.

Flip flop: why have uniforms? Why not let workers bring whatever tools they want and use them on pts? Why not let them drink on duty if it's done responsibly? Bring your dog on standbys? Use code 3 ad lib/prn? We can trust them, they're professionals....


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## Aerin-Sol (May 26, 2011)

IAems said:


> It's not _just_ an educational problem . . . it's a pride problem.  Look at all these posts "just an IFT company", "IFT No", "for IFT, I'd laugh at you".  I didn't realize IFT patients didn't require medical care.  This community looks down on IFT company's (and I'm not saying that it's not generally justified to do so), but how is a supervisor supposed to instill a sense of pride in their _*IFT*_ employees so they don't fall into the pitfall of burnout?  The answer, I believe, is to make this job something that is difficult to accomplish and the best way to do that is through discipline.  If they have pride, they will _want_ to have greater medical knowledge, _want_ to be further educated, and _want_ to grow as providers, not for the company but for themselves, because, honestly, the mentality of "just IFT" kills patients.  I've seen it.



If you want an IFT company that people can take pride in, then have hiring standards. Have nice uniforms. Have well-trained supervisors and managers who encourage their employees. Have continuing education. Have tuition reimbursement.

Don't let the company be ran by middle-aged men with highly-inflated senses of importance (and low levels of everything else: manners, education, management skill, business sense) who insist on being addressed as "captain" or "rear admiral" or whatever. If that's the only way your supervisors can "instill a sense of pride" in their employees, then you need new employees, new supervisors, or both. Creating artificial difficulty doesn't instill discipline or desire for growth; it instills hatred for middle management who create needless hoops in a misguided attempt to improve their employees via mandatory jumping.


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## abckidsmom (May 26, 2011)

IAems said:


> It's not _just_ an educational problem . . . it's a pride problem.  Look at all these posts "just an IFT company", "IFT No", "for IFT, I'd laugh at you".  I didn't realize IFT patients didn't require medical care.  This community looks down on IFT company's (and I'm not saying that it's not generally justified to do so), but how is a supervisor supposed to instill a sense of pride in their _*IFT*_ employees so they don't fall into the pitfall of burnout?  The answer, I believe, is to make this job something that is difficult to accomplish and the best way to do that is through discipline.  If they have pride, they will _want_ to have greater medical knowledge, _want_ to be further educated, and _want_ to grow as providers, not for the company but for themselves, because, honestly, the mentality of "just IFT" kills patients.  I've seen it.



Well said.

My career is pretty EMS- and medicine- heavy, but I've also worked in "just a grocery store" for 7 years during high school and college.  We were challenged to find situations we could effect, make customers happy to have come to our store, and keep our lines moving quickly.  There were benchmarks to hit and recognition for jobs well done.  Even though it was "just" a grocery store, it was a challenge, and the management appreciated and recognized good work.

Education, respect and greater hiring standards.  

Sorry to have brought out the dead horse for us to beat a little more.


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## JohnJ (Jun 1, 2011)

HandsomeRob said:


> On the subject of enforced discipline and training within an IFT company. Do you all agree with or disagree with the following scenario:
> 
> EMT/Medic is hired and told that this job will be extremely fast-paced and paramiltaristic. Said employee is assigned a rank of Probie and expected to be working for the entire 10 hour shift (cleaning, studying, etc.) with minimal down time. Employees may test and promote to higher ranks with time and performance. Rank structure is strictly enforced and even includes lower ranks addressing superiors by "sir" or "ma'am".
> 
> ...



It's not an environment I would want to work in. It seems like it would cause unnecessary stress; I believe it would be easier to ask your employees to be kind and respectful and to try to always be doing something productive. Also, I imagine that a rank structure would only cause people to become power hungry.


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## Handsome Rob (Jun 9, 2011)

Aerin-Sol said:


> If you want an IFT company that people can take pride in, then have hiring standards. Have nice uniforms. Have well-trained supervisors and managers who encourage their employees. Have continuing education. Have tuition reimbursement.
> 
> Don't let the company be ran by middle-aged men with highly-inflated senses of importance (and low levels of everything else: manners, education, management skill, business sense) who insist on being addressed as "captain" or "rear admiral" or whatever. If that's the only way your supervisors can "instill a sense of pride" in their employees, then you need new employees, new supervisors, or both. Creating artificial difficulty doesn't instill discipline or desire for growth; it instills hatred for middle management who create needless hoops in a misguided attempt to improve their employees via mandatory jumping.



Excellently stated. That is the main goal, beleive it or not, of the system. This company is trying to repair a;ll of the problems that you stated, they are also mixing in a more structured and disciplined style of EMS.

The issue of asking your employees to be kind and respectful has been attempted and failed miserably. Half of the kids working here do not have EMS or medical aspirations and are mostly immature and lazy. Hiring standards are being attempted, yet the problem persists of people interviewing extremely well, then getting comfortable and performing horribly...


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