# But, I'm a pilot.



## NomadicMedic (Jun 26, 2013)

So imagine you've been going to school to learn how to fly a plane. That's all you've ever wanted to do, fly a plane. You practice, you fly simulator missions. You practice some more. You take your pilot certifying exam and pass with flying colors. The mail arrives and you open the envelope to pull out your freshly printed P-card.

Then you get a job.

The boss is excited to have you. He says, "Son, we've heard you are one of the best new pilots out there. We are thrilled to have you!" 

You're excited. This looks like it's going to be a great job. You are going to be flying a beautiful plane. You've got an excellent work schedule, and you're gonna make some awesome money.

Then your boss says, "...but, we have to send you to school to teach you how to be a carpenter."

A Carpenter? You don't want to be a gosh darn carpenter. You're a pilot. P-I-L-O-T! You just graduated from pilot school. You've wanted to be a pilot ever since you were a kid. All you want to do is fly the plane.

The boss says, "I know. And don't worry son, you'll get to fly that big shiny plane ... Right after we send you to school for 12 weeks to tech you everything there is to know about how to build houses."

Build houses? WTF? You do NOT want to build houses. Is this guy nuts? He's talking to a pilot! With a "P"!

The boss just smiles. "I know, I know. It seems like we focus on house building a lot. Matter of fact, our first pilots were carpenters." He smiles benignly and leans back in his chair. "We may only build one house a year, but we practice house building every day. When you walk into the break room you'll see magazines and posters about house building. We'll sit around the break room table and talk about the beautiful houses we built. The beautiful houses our fathers built. The beautiful houses our friends have built! It's a big part of our lives. House building is tradition here, son."

You stop and think for a moment. What he's saying is, if you want to fly the plane, you have to learn to build houses. Even though you may build just one house a year, you'll practice house building every day and almost never practice flying that plane until you actually have to do it. And that plane may fly 20 or 30 flights a day. Some of them in really bad weather, the kind of weather where you have to use all of your pilot skills.

Sounds pretty backwards, doesn't it?

Welcome to fire based EMS.


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## chaz90 (Jun 26, 2013)

By the Beard of Zeus! I've said it before, but it bears repeating. I love this analogy!


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## DesertMedic66 (Jun 26, 2013)

Are you offering to build me a house?


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## NomadicMedic (Jun 26, 2013)

No. You missed the point. Houses no longer get built. People just talk about building them, the way they used to build them in the old days, the way they build them now. The big machinery they use to build them. They have big conferences on building houses. Every day, people practice building houses. However, very few houses actually get built.

Meanwhile, the planes just keep taking off and landing. The pilots are flying, but certainly not practicing. The pilots can't remember the last time they talked about flying. They're just doing it. And after they fly 10 or 12 flights, they have to come back to the hanger and practice building houses.


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## DesertMedic66 (Jun 26, 2013)

DEmedic said:


> No. You missed the point. Houses no longer get built. People just talk about building them, the way they used to build them in the old days, the way they build them now. The big machinery they use to build them. They have big conferences on building houses. Every day, people practice building houses. However, very few houses actually get built.
> 
> Meanwhile, the planes just keep taking off and landing. The pilots are flying, but certainly not practicing. The pilots can't remember the last time they talked about flying. They're just doing it. And after they fly 10 or 12 flights, they have to come back to the hanger and practice building houses.



I got the point the first time haha. I was just making a sarcastic comment


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## NomadicMedic (Jun 26, 2013)

I know you did. And I was being sarcastic back atcha.


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## DesertMedic66 (Jun 26, 2013)

DEmedic said:


> I know you did. And I was being sarcastic back atcha.



ahhh. I didn't catch it due to the fact your post was extremely long haha


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## JPINFV (Jun 26, 2013)

...but the first pilots were bicycle mechanics.


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## NomadicMedic (Jun 26, 2013)

JPINFV said:


> ...but the first pilots were bicycle mechanics.



Not according to the Carpenters Union.


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## JPINFV (Jun 26, 2013)

DEmedic said:


> Not according to the Carpenters Union.




So, the Carpenters know about as much history about flying as the fire service and EMS vis-a-vie Freedom House?


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## Anjel (Jun 27, 2013)

Ha I love it. So true!

They should practice flying planes everyday and how to get along with other pilots.


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## Wheel (Jun 27, 2013)

Plus, six pilots on a plane is better than two, right? Even if four just sit around and watch? ^_^


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## RocketMedic (Jun 27, 2013)

The oldest two pilots can tell everyone how it was done in 1990, and ensure compliance with tradition.


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## ThadeusJ (Jun 27, 2013)

Soooo you wanna be a flight medic on a water bomber...or you want to fly fire trucks?


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## Aprz (Jun 27, 2013)

Beautiful story. I loved the moment it clicked in my head where this was going. XD


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## wanderingmedic (Jun 27, 2013)

I loved it. Made my day.


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## chaz90 (Jun 27, 2013)

Rocketmedic40 said:


> The oldest two pilots can tell everyone how it was done in 1990, and ensure compliance with tradition.



The oldest don't let anyone call them pilots. They're carpenters, even if their day to day job is flying.


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## DrParasite (Dec 16, 2016)

Bumping an old thread because it's just awesome


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## VentMonkey (Dec 16, 2016)

...and because every would be FFPM should read this.


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## EpiEMS (Dec 16, 2016)

This thread should be a sticky. I love it. Flat out love it.


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## gotbeerz001 (Dec 17, 2016)

#conflicted


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## NomadicMedic (Dec 17, 2016)

It's even more difficult when carpenter pilots make 3 times as much as the pilots who don't build houses.


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## gotbeerz001 (Dec 17, 2016)

For those who have a problem with carpenter pilots, what do you think the appropriate level of interaction should be?? I hear gripes that fire medics are lazy and chronically undertreat patients but also are not appreciated when they try to maintain or dictate care beyond field transfer. So where is the "sweet spot" for a fire medic trying to get along? I wonder if maybe some transporting medics find that they have conflicting thoughts on the matter which set them up to always talk **** about the FFPM just trying to do their job...

Please be specific and explain which interventions are expected for your standard calls (ALOC, CP, SOB etc...) and which interventions should be left for the transporting medic to dictate. 


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## VentMonkey (Dec 17, 2016)

gotshirtz001 said:


> For those who have a problem with carpenter pilots, what do you think the appropriate level of interaction should be?? I hear gripes that fire medics are lazy and chronically undertreat patients but also are not appreciated when they try to maintain or dictate care beyond field transfer. So where is the "sweet spot" for a fire medic trying to get along? I wonder if maybe some transporting medics find that they have conflicting thoughts on the matter which set them up to always talk **** about the FFPM just trying to do their job


My personal take is that the type of paramedic that most, not all, FFPM's portray is dictated by the approach their department, and in turn, culture with it takes with the EMS delivery of their department.

Many (not all) times it seems as though it's approached similar to the way they would "take down" a fire, complete with a command approach. I guess what I am trying to say is that all to often I have seen them have a "one-size fits all" style of running calls.

I think we can all agree, this is often not the case with medicine in general, and like it or not, we're still very much being held accountable as medical professionals.

Now, what the fire department does bring waaay better than most transport paramedics (again, in my experience), is a professional public service approach.


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## WolfmanHarris (Dec 17, 2016)

The sweet spot would be no fire-medic at all. There is no need to have an ALS provider available for the care needed in the seconds to short minutes they'll actually spend with the patient. The only patients and interventions that are that time sensitive require BLS care. If arrival of a transport unit is so delayed that this isn't the case than that system is drastically under-resourced as for a large segment of our sickest patient, while what we do may alleviate symptoms, definitive care is only found in the hospital.

We're currently dealing with the Ontario branch of the IAFF pushing a platform of "Fire-Medics" (something we do not have anywhere in this province). They want any FF's who are currently or were once Paramedics to be able to practice as such while working as a FF. They're arguing that it's both cost neutral, which no union worth the dues they're paid would actually allow for long and that it's for the benefit of patients, despite that total lack of evidence of need. Certainly they've been arguing response time, but refusing to do an apples to apples comparison on times. Since EMS in Ontario measures from call received to arrive scene and fire reports travel time only.

I'm not saying a service cannot provide excellent pre-hospital care and provide top notch fire suppression and rescue, but when EMS is viewed as a merit badge course, and something you do to get on the engine or to keep call volumes up, etc etc. than that's not the case.


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## gotbeerz001 (Dec 17, 2016)

WolfmanHarris said:


> The sweet spot would be no fire-medic at all. There is no need to have an ALS provider available for the care needed in the seconds to short minutes they'll actually spend with the patient. The only patients and interventions that are that time sensitive require BLS care. If arrival of a transport unit is so delayed that this isn't the case than that system is drastically under-resourced as for a large segment of our sickest patient, while what we do may alleviate symptoms, definitive care is only found in the hospital.
> 
> We're currently dealing with the Ontario branch of the IAFF pushing a platform of "Fire-Medics" (something we do not have anywhere in this province). They want any FF's who are currently or were once Paramedics to be able to practice as such while working as a FF. They're arguing that it's both cost neutral, which no union worth the dues they're paid would actually allow for long and that it's for the benefit of patients, despite that total lack of evidence of need. Certainly they've been arguing response time, but refusing to do an apples to apples comparison on times. Since EMS in Ontario measures from call received to arrive scene and fire reports travel time only.
> 
> I'm not saying a service cannot provide excellent pre-hospital care and provide top notch fire suppression and rescue, but when EMS is viewed as a merit badge course, and something you do to get on the engine or to keep call volumes up, etc etc. than that's not the case.



So you're telling me that the unstable pt in a treatable dysrhythmia or a severely hypoglycemic pt should remain in their state for and additional 5-10 minutes because of "politics"?


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## WolfmanHarris (Dec 17, 2016)

gotshirtz001 said:


> So you're telling me that the unstable pt in a treatable dysrhythmia or a severely hypoglycemic pt should remain in their state for and additional 5-10 minutes because of "politics"?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No I'm saying they shouldn't have a system so poorly resourced that a properly staffed Ambulance takes 15 minutes in an urban or suburban area for to reach a high acuity call. I work in a very well resourced area, our response times are at records lows and FD does not beat us to calls in an estimated 75% of calls (data is still pending) and when they arrive before us it is by less than a minutes. (We are station based, but dynamically deployed to balance coverage) 

It's not politics, it's EBM. Generally I find FD's are hostile to it though because it doesn't support their claims that seconds count in ALS. There is not medical need for what they're proposing in my province yet they have no interest in that discussion. Or the legitimate concerns about patient safety associated with limited pt contacts and degradation of skills and the providing medical care during a 24 hour shift.


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## Summit (Dec 17, 2016)

DEmedic said:


> You are going to be flying a beautiful plane. You've got an* excellent work schedule, and you're gonna make some awesome money.*


Good analogy except for this part does not apply to new pilots


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## gotbeerz001 (Dec 17, 2016)

While I don't disagree with you, your experiences and mine vary quite a bit. We currently (transport) cannot keep a full staff and at any point have up to 30 open spots being covered with OT and forced mandation. 

Your system sounds ideal but does not match the reality that I see in both my systems. Fact is, for better or for worse, the fire medic is a necessary part of our matrix. Maybe it is because I work both sides and take my role seriously, but I find that things work best when you have both sides working together to provide care. 


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## CALEMT (Dec 17, 2016)

gotshirtz001 said:


> but I find that things work best when you have both sides working together to provide care.



It is in fact a team event as I like to preach.


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## WolfmanHarris (Dec 17, 2016)

gotshirtz001 said:


> While I don't disagree with you, your experiences and mine vary quite a bit. We currently (transport) cannot keep a full staff and at any point have up to 30 open spots being covered with OT and forced mandation.
> 
> Your system sounds ideal but does not match the reality that I see in both my systems. Fact is, for better or for worse, the fire medic is a necessary part of the matrix. Maybe it is because I work both sides and take my role seriously, but I find that things work best when you have both sides working together to provide care.
> 
> ...


Not questioning your commitment or competence, or saying that your system doesn't provide good care. You asked for the "sweet spot" I think the sweet spot is no Fire-Medic, because no more than a First Responder trained FF is needed for the occasional manpower augment on very high acuity or trauma calls.


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## EpiEMS (Dec 17, 2016)

The sweet spot? A good co-pilot (carpenter trained or not!) who knows when to ask the pilot's opinion and is able to provide temporizing measures until the pilot is available, if needed...

But maybe I'm going a little far on this metaphor.


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## StCEMT (Dec 17, 2016)

While I may not like the huge push to be both firefighters and medics, I don't completely disagree with their existence as a whole. Where I disagree is like some ad I saw a long time ago regarding a cardiac arrest with 6 medics on the call and questioning what level of care people would want for their family (P vs B). However, there have been a few times where having a fire guy ride along as an extra medic has been helpful. Now where I work, I am the only medic on the truck. It is nice knowing I can have one of them jump in the back and help if I ever need it. Do I usually need it? No. But for that one call? Yea, I'll take it.


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## EpiEMS (Dec 17, 2016)

StCEMT said:


> While I may not like the huge push to be both firefighters and medics, I don't completely disagree with their existence as a whole. Where I disagree is like some ad I saw a long time ago regarding a cardiac arrest with 6 medics on the call and questioning what level of care people would want for their family (P vs B).



I've been looking for this ad! It's a laughable one from both a system design and a clinical perspective...


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## SpecialK (Dec 18, 2016)

I quite like the fire brigade in a mild sort of way; I've visited a couple fire stations in various other countries (for example England and Australia) and sort of casually asked if they have any involvement in medical work, specifically interested in their first-responding to cardiac arrests.  The answer has sort of been a perplexed look, then a firm "NO" usually followed quickly by "and we want to keep it that way".  In England, the union had even sought a court order to legally prevent them responding to cardiac arrests.

All fire stations here do first response to cardiac arrest and the careers guys are on-scene in a couple of minutes but it takes the volunteer brigades a couple minutes until they turn out (because they need a driver, officer and two firefighters who have to drive into station) but they don't mind doing cardiac arrests either.  Some more rural or remote brigades have become "first responders" who will respond to known life-threatening emergencies if an ambulance is not immediately available however there was severe pushback from the UFBA (and it's volunteer members) about doing any sort of medical work outside of what had not been very deliberately agreed to.  The firefighters made it very clear; they wanted no part of it in general because they wanted to be firefighters.

It takes so much of my effort just to focus on maintaining an appropriate level of clinical knowledge to keep up with the ever-increasing expectations and responsibilities of pre-hospital care.  For example; the new CPGs have moved from ceftriaxone in septic shock to co-amoxiclav followed by gentamiacin for certain presentations, and the option of retaining ceftriaxone if the patient has a life-threatening allergy to penicillin (the language is to "call for" it but I don't know who as it is physically being removed from the kits as far as I know).  So, now, not only must ambulance personnel be very good at recognising sepsis (which can be very difficult) but also taking on an even greater role in determining the source (or most likely source) of infection as it will directly determine the antimicrobial therapy given.  There are a greater number of sections where treatment may be initiated and the patient left at home, or referred elsewhere, and this is in addition to the hundred billion other little things

I don't have enough hours in the day to be the "best" at everything now required of ambulance personnel so how on earth you can combine the two is beyond me .... 

The one thing I will say I like about the fire service is they have a much better funding mechanism by the way of insurance levies and not being tied to the Government for money; makes it much easier I bet.  Ambulance has to fight tooth, death and nail to the Ministry of Health for every cent whereas the fire service is seemingly rich with insurance levy money.


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## EpiEMS (Dec 19, 2016)

SpecialK said:


> I don't have enough hours in the day to be the "best" at everything now required of ambulance personnel so how on earth you can combine the two is beyond me ....



Quoting for truth. This is part of the inherent problem that many folks like to point out about fire-based EMS.


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## Seirende (Dec 19, 2016)

EpiEMS said:


> I've been looking for this ad! It's a laughable one from both a system design and a clinical perspective...


http://emtlife.com/threads/fear-mongering.42509/

Here you go. Just search for "hose monkey" on this forum and it's the first result.


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## EpiEMS (Dec 19, 2016)

@DEmedic
This is the greatest picture ever.

Who knew that you needed a paramedic to perform chest compression...?


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## NysEms2117 (Dec 19, 2016)

EpiEMS said:


> @DEmedic
> This is the greatest picture ever.
> 
> Who knew that you needed a paramedic to perform chest compression...?


Just saying every one of those dudes is jacked beyond belief lol


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## EpiEMS (Dec 19, 2016)

NysEms2117 said:


> Just saying every one of those dudes is jacked beyond belief lol



"I want my tax dollars spent to keep firefighters super muscle-y," said no taxpayer ever!


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## NomadicMedic (Dec 19, 2016)

And there's no monitor, EKG leads or therapy pads in sight and they've left the guys shirt on... but they've already drilled an IO. 

This whole thing is propaganda of the most vile sort.


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## NysEms2117 (Dec 19, 2016)

EpiEMS said:


> "I want my tax dollars spent to keep firefighters super muscle-y," said no taxpayer ever!



Idc what they look like as long as they can carry my fat *** out of a building lol.


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## akflightmedic (Dec 20, 2016)

Look at all that diversity!!

Male....Check
White...Check
Muscles (stereotypical FF)...Check

Looks like a very well rounded department to me!


**Edited to comment that #2 MIGHT be Hispanic. So they got a token in there, I guess.


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## SpecialK (Dec 20, 2016)

What a very funny poster!

Before co-response it'd be common to run a cardiac arrest with three to four staff; now it's more like six because four firefighters show up routinely.

There's very good evidence in the cardiac arrest database that routine co-response with the fire brigade increases survival. 

As for anything other then cardiac arrest what's the point? I don't see one and neither do the fire service hence why they've been so strongly opposed to any medical duties! I know by reading the news from England and Australia they feel the same way too.


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## Summit (Dec 20, 2016)

I'd speculate that co-response increased survival is 99% due to with compression fatigue, thus an autopulse or lucas device will offer the same benefits (per the studies) except you can do it with 1 $20K device instead of 4 extra $100+K/year (actual cost) firefighters in their $1 million dollar fire apparatus.


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## DrParasite (Dec 20, 2016)

SpecialK said:


> There's very good evidence in the cardiac arrest database that routine co-response with the fire brigade increases survival.


makes sense.... more firefighters means more hands to do compression,  and because there are more fire engines than ambulances they tend to get there more quickly, leading to earlier start of compressions, which increase the chance of survival.

what the data doesn't support is if fire based ALS first response has better patient outcomes, but it does support the idea that BLS interventions are more time critical than ALS ones.


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## Summit (Dec 20, 2016)

DrParasite said:


> what the data doesn't support is if fire based ALS first response has better patient outcomes, but it does support the idea that BLS interventions are more time critical than ALS ones.


FD wants to bill for ALS to fund their low frequency high cost fire protection business, and they don't like playing second fiddle.


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## EpiEMS (Dec 20, 2016)

akflightmedic said:


> Looks like a very well rounded department to me!


Any felons?



SpecialK said:


> As for anything other then cardiac arrest what's the point?



Lift assists, my good sir! Or technical rescue, I guess.



Summit said:


> thus an autopulse or lucas device will offer the same benefits (per the studies) except you can do it with 1 $20K device instead of 4 extra $100+K/year (actual cost) firefighters in their $1 million dollar fire apparatus.


Or for those systems not progressive/willing enough to get a Lucas, they can always just have 2 FFs respond in a fly car - seems like a nice happy medium (more expensive than a Lucas from an economic perspective, but not from a status-quo budgetary one).


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## EpiEMS (Dec 20, 2016)

Summit said:


> FD wants to bill for ALS to fund their low frequency high cost fire protection business, and they don't like playing second fiddle.



To this point, it could very well be that the fire service needs to rethink its model...
Perhaps they would be well served to meet with Falck or Rural Metro or, you know, consolidate stuff that isn't needed very often?


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## Summit (Dec 20, 2016)

EpiEMS said:


> To this point, it could very well be that the fire service needs to rethink its model...
> Perhaps they would be well served to meet with Falck or Rural Metro or, you know, consolidate stuff that isn't needed very often?


That would mean deviating from the mindset of: Expand Kingdom, Buy Apparatus, Maintain Staffing


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## VentMonkey (Dec 20, 2016)

I gave up fighting this fight years ago, and moved to a place that very much let's pilot fly, and carpenters build houses.

That being said, every now and again there's talk about the departments becoming ALS. Can it happen? Sure. Will it happen? Who knows. I have found most fire-based ALS programs to typically be a fraternity-styled delivery models with a few former long time paramedics sprinkled in that can manage to pull off both fairly well.

The reality is, even almost 17 years later, the aftermath of 9/11 is something that they continue to bank on. Now if that isn't opportunistically immoral I don't know what is.


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## EpiEMS (Dec 20, 2016)

VentMonkey said:


> The reality is, even almost 17 years later, the aftermath of 9/11 is something that they continue to bank on. Now if that isn't opportunistically immoral I don't know what is.


It's certainly a message that resonates with the public, whether it should or not...but hey, it works for fire - gets municipalities without any meaningful targets to buy and staff significant fire resources "just in case" of a CBRNE incident.


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## VFlutter (Dec 20, 2016)

NysEms2117 said:


> Just saying every one of those dudes is jacked beyond belief lol



The Captain looks a little scrawny ha


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## Handsome Robb (Dec 21, 2016)

Summit said:


> I'd speculate that co-response increased survival is 99% due to with compression fatigue, thus an autopulse or lucas device will offer the same benefits (per the studies) except you can do it with 1 $20K device instead of 4 extra $100+K/year (actual cost) firefighters in their $1 million dollar fire apparatus.



We're looking at our survival rates pre/post Lucas and they actually went down when we switched to the Lucas. Too much time off the chest early on in the resuscitation to apply it. We've done a lot of tweaking and training and survival rates are at where they were before and moving towards better the more we mess with our system of applying it. 


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## Scott33 (Dec 21, 2016)

SpecialK said:


> I've visited a couple fire stations in various other countries (for example England and Australia) and sort of casually asked if they have any involvement in medical work, specifically interested in their first-responding to cardiac arrests.  The answer has sort of been a perplexed look, then a firm "NO" usually followed quickly by "and we want to keep it that way".  In England, the union had even sought a court order to legally prevent them responding to cardiac arrests.



Times are slowly changing. It may have been the case that the mere suggestion UK fire bods co-responding to medical emergencies has been met with considerable resistance. However, recently there have been several new schemes around the UK aimed at doing just that. 

http://www.derbys-fire.gov.uk/files...regional_Emergency_First_Responder_scheme.pdf

http://www.secamb.nhs.uk/about_us/news/2016/surrey_co-responding.aspx

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-35581157

http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0046/00460152.pdf


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## Operations Guy (Dec 21, 2016)

What if I'm a fighter pilot in a county ran fighter pilot service. Problem solved cause carpenters are carpenters only like it should be!


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## Summit (Dec 21, 2016)

Operations Guy said:


> What if I'm a fighter pilot in a county ran fighter pilot service. Problem solved cause carpenters are carpenters only like it should be!


I'm a nuclear stealth bomber pilot!

I think...

The metaphors are getting confusing...


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## Flying (Dec 21, 2016)

I'm a flight attendant.

Flight attendants save pilots' asses.


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## Summit (Dec 21, 2016)

Flying said:


> I'm a flight attendant.
> 
> Flight attendants save pilots' asses.



Who saves carpenter's asses?


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## Operations Guy (Dec 21, 2016)

Summit said:


> Who saves carpenter's asses?



Carpenters Union who sells home buyers with fear.....


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## SandpitMedic (Dec 25, 2016)

Treat the plane not the monitor.

While I am of the mindset of most, I think that fixing EMS and making it more.... professional.... would do more wonders for EMS rather than tearing into the carpenters. Because the carpenters aren't going anywhere, people will always need houses.

Increasing barriers to EMS will allow for higher education, reduced supply, higher wages, better bargaining power, and an overall evolution of the profession. Mandatory degrees, age restrictions (21)for paramedic, required patient contact hours prior to moving up, etc.

Like I said, I don't like fire based EMS either, but if you engage the same enemy for too long he will adapt to your tactics.  Let's pick the battlefield, and make ourselves better.


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## Summit (Dec 25, 2016)

SandpitMedic said:


> rather than tearing into the carpenters. Because the carpenters aren't going anywhere, people will always need houses.
> 
> Increasing barriers to EMS will allow for higher education, reduced supply, higher wages, better bargaining power, and an overall evolution of the profession. Mandatory degrees, age restrictions (21)for paramedic, required patient contact hours prior to moving up, etc


The carpenters don't want higher training standards for pilots because that would affect their bottom line and ability to own the flying business


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## Operations Guy (Dec 27, 2016)

Then you have nonsense like this. So now your a carpenter, pilot, and a bomb squad tech?


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## Seirende (Dec 27, 2016)

Operations Guy said:


> Then you have nonsense like this. So now your a carpenter, pilot, and a bomb squad tech?



Honestly, why not? Just another specialized resource. Seems to go along with the hazmat stuff.


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## Tigger (Dec 27, 2016)

Seirende said:


> Honestly, why not? Just another specialized resource. Seems to go along with the hazmat stuff.


Yea, I always though people with HAZMAT backgrounds should probably deal with bombs filled with you know, hazardous materials.


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## Operations Guy (Dec 27, 2016)

It's different if it's joint thing between police/fire venture. Fire is not trained in evidence collection. That is why most HAZMAT teams are police/fire. Also a HAZMAT situation is different then a Bomb disposal one.


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## Operations Guy (Dec 27, 2016)

Seirende said:


> Honestly, why not? Just another specialized resource. Seems to go along with the hazmat stuff.



HAZMAT is not bomb disposal. Bomb disposal requires evidence collection that fire is not trained to or can keep a chain of custody.


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