# Felons Working As Nurses In Central Florida



## Sasha (Feb 18, 2010)

I thought this was interesting, especially considering some think that granting a license to someone with a felony history is only confined to EMS.

I don't feel that if they knowingly commited a crime, even "in the heat of battle" they should be allowed to function as a health care professional. What's going to happen when they're in "the heat of battle" with an elderly dementia patient?

*Felons Working As Nurses In Central Florida*
Full Article: http://www.wftv.com/news/22592884/detail.html


> 9 investigates felons who could be working as nurses in Central Florida. They get approved to take the nursing exam or have their licenses restored even after arrests for violent crimes.
> 
> WFTV reporter Darrell Greene reviewed hundreds of cases and hours of audio tapes and what he found is driving action in Tallahassee.
> 
> ...


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## MrBrown (Feb 18, 2010)

Well it "was" only second degree "attempted" murder 

Seriously, damn! 

Should we rename this site HowToGetADriversLicenseInCaliforniaAndGetHiredIfYouAreAFelon.com?


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## EMSLaw (Feb 18, 2010)

I don't often agree with Mr. Brown, but I've got to give him this one.  People must be finding these topics in google searches or something.


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## medic417 (Feb 18, 2010)

So nurses are not perfect after all.  Perhaps increasing education is not the answer as felons would still be employed.  Seems the nurses should police themselves better like us uneducated EMS folks do.  :wacko:


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## MrBrown (Feb 18, 2010)

EMSLaw said:


> I don't often agree with Mr. Brown, ....



And to think I spent all that time reading "How to Make Friends and Influence People" lol


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## VentMedic (Feb 18, 2010)

medic417 said:


> So nurses are not perfect after all. Perhaps increasing education is not the answer as felons would still be employed. Seems the nurses should police themselves better like us uneducated EMS folks do. :wacko:


 
Considering the number nurses there are in this country I am surprised more have not gotten past the boards especially before the reporting systems were in place. Some states are now making nurses and a few other health care providers go through the background checks with their renewals if they have held licenses for 20 or more years. EMS still needs to get background checks in some states just for entry. Of course in Orange county CA an EMT can kill a child and still be certified. 

I hope this is not the beginnings of another anti-education for EMS thread and using this as another excuse not to get more education. The entry for the RN is still a mere 2 year degree in this country and that is barely a good strart when compared to other professions in both health care and nonhealth care fields. A two year degree from a community college would only be the first step to getting accepting into a college for the degree of your chosen profession in most professional career choices today.


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## Sasha (Feb 18, 2010)

VentMedic said:


> I hope this is not the beginnings of another anti-education for EMS thread and using this as another excuse not to get more education. The entry for the RN is still a mere 2 year degree in this country and that is barely a good strart when compared to other professions in both health care and nonhealth care fields. A two year degree from a community college would only be the first step to getting accepting into a college for the degree of your chosen profession in most professional career choices today.



No, this thread is a thread on the fact that you can still be a felon and a RN. You can be granted licensure as a nurse with attempted murder on your record. Considering that some think that having a record and getting licensure is confined only to EMS due to low educational standards, and it is brought to light that it's not simply low educational standards and this is a problem within healthcare itself, not just EMS.


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## MrBrown (Feb 18, 2010)

Sasha said:


> ...this thread is a thread on the fact that you can still be a felon and a RN. You can be granted licensure as a nurse with attempted murder on your record. ...



I would be very interested to see what the licensure body used as justification for this.  

Wouldn't happen here and I don't ever want it too!

We probably all dont like somebody and have all thought about stabbing them 3 or 4 times (it is after all only "attempted" murder right?) but ...... the thing is that WE don't!


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## VentMedic (Feb 18, 2010)

Sasha said:


> No, this thread is a thread on the fact that you can still be a felon and a RN. You can be granted licensure as a nurse with attempted murder on your record. Considering that some think that having a record and getting licensure is confined only to EMS due to low educational standards, and it is brought to light that it's not simply low educational standards and this is a problem within healthcare itself, not just EMS.


 
Actually the statutes for EMS are fairly clear about who and what types of felons can apply for a certification in EMS.  However most statutes are open ended to where an exception can be made and it is up to the state to decide what is acceptable or in the situation in CA, the medical director of each county.     MDs can commit serious crimes as we know from the doctor with the famous EKG book and be booted out of the system.  Thus, it doesn't really matter about the education but a standardized education system may at least require background check.


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## Sasha (Feb 18, 2010)

MrBrown said:


> I would be very interested to see what the licensure body used as justification for this.
> 
> Wouldn't happen here and I don't ever want it too!
> 
> We probably all dont like somebody and have all thought about stabbing them 3 or 4 times (it is after all only "attempted" murder right?) but ...... the thing is that WE don't!



I love the three OR four times.... they can't remember. Lovely!


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## JPINFV (Feb 18, 2010)

Sasha said:


> I love the three OR four times.... they can't remember. Lovely!



I'm pretty sure it was three, after all...


			
				Monty Python and the Holy Grail said:
			
		

> And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached,


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## firetender (Feb 18, 2010)

Where's the part where you're curious about each individual case, get to understand a little bit about the circumstances, see what decisions were made around this with the Nursing School/Facility or whatever and THEN you make a broad, sweeping judgment?


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## WolfmanHarris (Feb 18, 2010)

firetender said:


> Where's the part where you're curious about each individual case, get to understand a little bit about the circumstances, see what decisions were made around this with the Nursing School/Facility or whatever and THEN you make a broad, sweeping judgment?



I stand by my previous assertion that barring of any un-pardoned felon from this profession or nursing or any other job requiring the trust of a patient or the general public is the right move.

Why is it though that we suddenly feel vindicated when Nurses, FD or anyone else shows they can do as BAD as EMS?! We should set the bar high. Not high compared to anyone else.


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## firetender (Feb 18, 2010)

There but for fortune. 

The felony stuff is only a metaphor for a screw up with societal consequences. The key question is, had you such a screw-up hanging on your neck, would you want YOU to be the barrier you have to get through to move on with your life and contribute?

We all want our individual cases looked at, even you, I'd guess.


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## Sasha (Feb 18, 2010)

firetender said:


> There but for fortune.
> 
> The felony stuff is only a metaphor for a screw up with societal consequences. The key question is, had you such a screw-up hanging on your neck, would you want YOU to be the barrier you have to get through to move on with your life and contribute?
> 
> We all want our individual cases looked at, even you, I'd guess.



I am all for felons to get on and contribute, however not in occupations that deal with vulnerable human beings or animals, and not in an occupation where they need to be trusted to be an advocate and not harm their charges. 

Life sucks, but if you commit a violent crime you have closed certain doors that SHOULD be closed. Would you want a nurse who had stabbed someone three or four times working on you? Or an elderly relative of yours?

I'm trying to think of a situation where attempted murder would be OK, and I'm not seeing it. It is easier to protect patients by barring the entire bunch than to take it case by case and allowing some, taking the chance that they might reoffend.



> Take the case of Lucia Rivera, arrested for assault and then approved to work as a nurse. He was then arrested in St. Cloud for stealing from her elderly patients. Her adjudication was withheld. According to the State Ombudsmen's Office, she and 8,700 other nurses with criminal records were approved to work in Florida since 1985. *Twenty percent went on to commit other crimes*.


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## reaper (Feb 18, 2010)

Sasha said:


> I am all for felons to get on and contribute, however not in occupations that deal with vulnerable human beings or animals, and not in an occupation where they need to be trusted to be an advocate and not harm their charges.
> 
> Life sucks, but if you commit a violent crime you have closed certain doors that SHOULD be closed. *Would you want a nurse who had stabbed someone three or four times working on you? Or an elderly relative of yours?*
> I'm trying to think of a situation where attempted murder would be OK, and I'm not seeing it. It is easier to protect patients by barring the entire bunch than to take it case by case and allowing some, taking the chance that they might reoffend.




Depends. Do I need to be decompressed?


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## Sasha (Feb 18, 2010)

reaper said:


> Depends. Do I need to be decompressed?



 touche.


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## JPINFV (Feb 18, 2010)

reaper said:


> Depends. Do I need to be decompressed?



I imagine more of the following criteria.

1. Is she hot?

2. Can I pat her down before each shift?


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## triemal04 (Feb 18, 2010)

Sasha said:


> I am all for felons to get on and contribute, however not in occupations that deal with vulnerable human beings or animals, and not in an occupation where they need to be trusted to be an advocate and not harm their charges.
> 
> *Life sucks, but if you commit a violent crime you have closed certain doors that SHOULD be closed.* Would you want a nurse who had stabbed someone three or four times working on you? Or an elderly relative of yours?
> 
> I'm trying to think of a situation where attempted murder would be OK, and I'm not seeing it. It is easier to protect patients by barring the entire bunch than to take it case by case and allowing some, taking the chance that they might reoffend.


See, this is where it get's sticky and becomes a gray area.  (and this was just gone over but apparently people forget)  It's not just violent crimes that are felonies but many, many other things, lots of which are (relatively I know) minor.  You need to remember that most states have classes of felonies; often 1-3 or a-c.  A 3 or C is usually pretty minor; stealing something worth $300 comes to mind.  It'd be pretty easy to pull a dumb stunt while young, end up with a felony on your record, and be screwed.  And does happen matter of fact...

I'm not saying that a criminal record shouldn't be looked at, or someone with a felony shouldn't be scrutinized before being hired, but some discretion should be applied.  Someone who stole a car at 17, is now 30 and has lead a clean life since is not in the same league as someone who tried to kill another person.

Oh, and recidivism rates aren't applied to the class of crime, but to the specific crime itself.  To do otherwise is completely foolish.


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## fortsmithman (Feb 18, 2010)

WolfmanHarris said:


> I stand by my previous assertion that barring of any un-pardoned felon from this profession or nursing or any other job requiring the trust of a patient or the general public is the right move.
> 
> Why is it though that we suddenly feel vindicated when Nurses, FD or anyone else shows they can do as BAD as EMS?! We should set the bar high. Not high compared to anyone else.


Too bad the RCMP doesn't believe that.  In BC there is a sworn member of the RCMP who was convicted of impaired driving and he is still in the force as a sworn member.  In Alberta I heard that a person convicted of possession of child porn is still registered with Alberta College of Paramedics but the medic can only work industrial with no contact with children.  I agree with you that if you have an adult record and have not been pardoned then one should not be allowed to practice as an EMS provider, or any other public safety or healthcare worker.


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## JPINFV (Feb 18, 2010)

Although, at the same time, there are ways to clean up a record. A minor who does something stupid can always petition to have thier record sealed. There's also the option of having a conviction dismissed after someone finished probation or getting a certificate of rehabilitation.


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## fortsmithman (Feb 18, 2010)

Here in Canada Youth criminal records are sealed.  the only way they can be unsealed is if the youth commits another offence within 5 yrs after they turn 18.


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## spinnakr (Feb 18, 2010)

If you ask me, it's highly dependent on what the felony was.  Violent crimes?  Not a chance.

But, to use the previous example...  that 30-year-old _might_ very well be an outstanding member of society.  It's entirely dependent on the situations surrounding each individual case.


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