# Northstar Ambulance = FAILURE (if true of course)



## 18G (Jan 15, 2012)

Considering that the window is a nurse practitioner with intensive care experience I highly doubt she is exaggerating the facts. Northstar left the widow along side of the road in a snow storm, really?

http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/52238-widow-emts-took


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## hoop762 (Jan 15, 2012)

If that article is the full and accurate story then it is a very sad indeed. However, im sure the majority of us have had calls that have ended up in the media. The stories presented to the public are less than accurate, in my experience. 

My heart goes out to the family and I would expect north star QA dept would take a long hard look at the run report.


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## Veneficus (Jan 15, 2012)

How many times have we seen on this very website the negative reactions of medics to medically adept bystanders?

How many threads have we read over medics who are so insecure with themselves that the family can ride up front if even at all because of the important and complex work that takes place in an ambulance?

How often on this website have we heard how the current training is sufficent?

I would wager there is more to the story than what is presented here, but I could tell you, if I saw crappy care being performed by medics I called for my family, to say I would be upset would be a slight understatement.

I would even make sure to sue them individually in addition to their agency.

Of course before any of that, I would ask to speak with med command myself.


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## Outbac1 (Jan 15, 2012)

It would be nice to hear another side of the story for balance. Also if the "medics" were EMT-B or P and what their scope of practice is. IF the story is accurate as presented I can see some big sh@#$ hitting the fan. 
 Even if partly true it paints US "medics" in a bad light. And that is unfortunate for all the good ones there are.


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## Shishkabob (Jan 15, 2012)

Meh, some things aren't adding up, the story is poorly written, and it wouldn't be the first time a frantic family member, medically trained or not, skewed a story or saw something that didn't actually happen.


I'm waiting for the other side of the story, as hers is but one, and biased.



Not to mention a journalist trying to sell a story.


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## WTEngel (Jan 15, 2012)

Tragic outcome any way you cut it.

I would like to hear the other side of the story before forming an opinion about the care they provided.

Her being left on the side of the road...just wow. I certainly hope that was an accident! Like maybe he was letting her out to get into the back, and took off before she was in because he was so frantic? Either way, I mean, wow...

Regardless of how the investigation comes down, this situation broke down on multiple levels.


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## epipusher (Jan 15, 2012)

Poorly written article, from the view of an upset floor nurse. I'm siding with the ambulance crew on this one.

edit: floor nurse or er nurse, i've seen them both freak out and freeze up outside their relative comfort zone.


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## RustyShackleford (Jan 15, 2012)

The article is poorly written, as well she states that she was doing CPR in the back of the truck after they left the clinic, then states she was in the passenger seat and asked to go to the back to hold his hand.


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## Aidey (Jan 15, 2012)

I'm confused why they would have taken his body back to the ski clinic, that seems really strange to me. 

Because of some legal technicalities people never officially die en route to the hospital where I am. It can happen, but if it does the ambulance is out of service until the coroner can come and get the body. So unless someone develops injuries incompatible with life during transport they get worked until arrival at the hospital. And frankly, I've yet to have anyone spontaneously decapitate en route.*

It also seems strange that they were on scene for so long. Even if you assume the wife's times aren't totally accurate why not load and go and do everything en route with a transport that sounds to be at least 30+ minutes? 

I agree that even people with years of experience can lose their heads when out of their comfort zone. The neighbor of one of our local ED docs was in a nasty accident on his property out in the boonies. Someone had gone and got her and she got there before we did. We had to RSI him and she was 1/2 help and 1/2 hindrance. She had no idea what equipment and meds we carried and kept asking for stuff we didn't have which was really throwing her off. Luckily right about the time she asked if anyone had notified CT the helicopter got there. 



Veneficus said:


> How many times have we seen on this very website the negative reactions of medics to medically adept bystanders?
> 
> How many threads have we read over medics who are so insecure with themselves that the family can ride up front if even at all because of the important and complex work that takes place in an ambulance?
> 
> ...



Not to defend their actions at all, but from the sounds of his injuries I likely would have not taken a rider. My personal feelings are that if we are going code we should not have any extra people in the ambulance if at all avoidable. We are already putting a number of people at risk by going code, and I do not want to put someone in even more risk somewhat unnecessarily. 

It is a sh*tty choice. 999 times out of 1000 nothing will happen and we will get to the hospital fine. But every time I see a report about a crash where the patient's husband/wife/child died in the wreck I can't help but think how unnecessary it was. 



* The couple of times I've heard of people having DNR patients code while en route the amb has continued on to the hospital and parked there.


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## 18G (Jan 15, 2012)

There are always two sides of a story but when I read that the ambulance crew left the wife along side of the road in a snow storm it makes it much more believable. How is that even remotely possible unless it was intentional? 

The sad thing is I have seen Medic crews come into a scene that unprepared.. no stethoscope, no monitor, no exam, and yet obtain a refusal on a patient with near syncope and reported bradycardia!


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## Shishkabob (Jan 15, 2012)

For all we know she started getting abusive and they kicked her out for their safety.


Again, one side of the story, and a biased emotional one at that.


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## Fish (Jan 15, 2012)

I am not going to take a side, we have no idea why they left her. *BUT* it had better be be one very good reason to kick someones wife out and leave her on the side of the road.


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## Veneficus (Jan 16, 2012)

Aidey said:


> I agree that even people with years of experience can lose their heads when out of their comfort zone. The neighbor of one of our local ED docs was in a nasty accident on his property out in the boonies. Someone had gone and got her and she got there before we did. We had to RSI him and she was 1/2 help and 1/2 hindrance. She had no idea what equipment and meds we carried and kept asking for stuff we didn't have which was really throwing her off. Luckily right about the time she asked if anyone had notified CT the helicopter got there.



I find this incredibly sad that a physician cannot work in an austere environment.





Aidey said:


> Not to defend their actions at all, but from the sounds of his injuries I likely would have not taken a rider. My personal feelings are that if we are going code we should not have any extra people in the ambulance if at all avoidable. We are already putting a number of people at risk by going code, and I do not want to put someone in even more risk somewhat unnecessarily.
> 
> It is a sh*tty choice. 999 times out of 1000 nothing will happen and we will get to the hospital fine. But every time I see a report about a crash where the patient's husband/wife/child died in the wreck I can't help but think how unnecessary it was.



I can understand that point, but if I could just point out there is a place when medicine loses the science.

It has been demonstrated that CPR is ineffective during transport.

It has been demonstrated that there is an increased risk of an accident when driving with lights and sirens. (increased 300% was the last stats I saw some years ago from the insurance institute of America)

Providers should be belted into their seats, which anyone with time in the back of a rig knows is going to hinder the ability to perform procedures, and makes CPR impossible. 

Most of the "life saving" interventions are not life saving anyway. 

So perhaps if it is ineffective and dangerous to work in the back of a vehicle utilizing lights and siren style driving, then there are only 3 realistic options.

1. Stop working the patient and just sit down and enjoy the ride of trying to get to the hospital doing nothing for the patient.

2. Stop the vehicle entirely someplace safe and work the code.

3. Stop driving with lights and sirens and allow a rider to spend the last few minutes with a family member since intervention is pointless and it is likely the patient will die anyway.

I am not impressed about getting vehicles back in service, that is a failure of the local EMS system and on provider mentality. If your system does not have enugh vehicles or providers, then the system has to change.

I also don't buy company policy. If you company has a policy that demends you do something that is unsafe to the point of reckless, then that policy needs changed. In the meanwhile ignored.

It is 2012, it is time for EMS to get its head out of its *** and start acting like professionals rather than a bunch of good natured people running around yelling "OMG, OH NO!" everytime somebody is dying or sick enough to. (Even when they do not know when that is) 

Either that or go back to hearses because 2 people seatbelted up front with a patient belted in back screaming their way to the hospital is safer for all involved.


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