# Some sobering stats.......



## DT4EMS (Jul 30, 2005)

Although I  can't go into specifics yet, I was made aware of something. 

The data being collected up to this point is showing EMS providers are being attacked at a rate MORE than police officers. 

There is still some real concerns because EMS provdres have been trained on "Scene Safety" for at least the past 15 years, but attacks are still occuring.

It kills me when I hear people form one area say "We wouldn't go there" or "We wouldn't have done that", and a few miles away in another service a person gets attacked.

It is fine when we can pass judgement when someone gets hurt saying "Why didn't they check for scene safety?"

Let me say this.........In today's age, I would have to say that most EMT's and Medics are checking for scene safety. The problem arises when they are attacked by people they never suspected.

Every day at the PD we get emails regarding officer safety because some dirtbag has found "new and improved" ways to shoot, stab, crush us. You would not believe some of the "improvised weapons/devices" we get emails on.

It is such a problem that several cities have now created "Policies" for how to check for scene safety. I am not sure how I totally feel about this.

Sometimes policies are a double edged sword. They are great to make a person "work within" but what happens if a person accidentally violates this policy and gets attacked?

Can that City/Service then distance themself from the victim? 

Like I have said before.....this is a sublject that isn't important to you........until it is IMPORTANT TO YOU!


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## Summit (Jul 31, 2005)

Police officers carry guns, tasers, and nightsticks. 

EMS carries narcotics.

Who would you beat on?


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## vtemti (Jul 31, 2005)

It is sad to say, but no matter how thorough any safety policies/protocols have been thought out or how well they are followed, there will always be those instances of a scene going sour after it has been determined to be safe. For this reason we must always be on our guard. We are taught that our own safety is priority and we need to protect ourselves even if that means distancing ourselves until the appropriate help arrives.


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## coloradoemt (Jul 31, 2005)

I would be curious as to where this data was collected. I work in a very busy system where the riff-raff of the world run rampant. I have yet to hear of any of my co-workers getting assaulted by anyone. I have had a few drunks etc. try a few tactics with me but unsuccessfully. Scene safety is a good idea for a reason but I rate getting pts into the back of my rig and rolling as quickly as possible right up there with it.


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## DT4EMS (Jul 31, 2005)

Some of the previous numbers talk about one city having three assaults per day.

There was an article in EMS magazine. I am at wok so I cona't give you the link right now......

As far as the "New Data" it hasn't been officially released yet. Trust me when it is I will post it here.

I am not the one who gathered this particular info. I was contacted by him because of what I do. 

But it is enought that he is working under a federal grant on the subject of EMS providers being attacked in the field.


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## TTLWHKR (Jul 31, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Summit_@Jul 31 2005, 01:18 AM
> * Police officers carry guns, tasers, and nightsticks.
> 
> EMS carries narcotics.
> ...


Yeah, but most of the time they end up picking on the ambulances that don't carry narcotics. We always carried a Percocet bottle filled with filed down yellow PEZ in one of our cabinets in case some druggie attacked us. This way we would get out alive, and he would be think he got what he wanted. The tough part was sitting there making the PEZ looks like real pills and not eating them. B/c PEZ are addicting...  


edit - spelling mistake  :angry:


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## DT4EMS (Jul 31, 2005)

> _Originally posted by TTLWHKR+Jul 31 2005, 03:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (TTLWHKR @ Jul 31 2005, 03:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Summit_@Jul 31 2005, 01:18 AM
> * Police officers carry guns, tasers, and nightsticks.
> 
> EMS carries narcotics.
> ...


Yeah, but most of the time they end up picking on the ambulances that don't carry narcotics. We always carried a Percocet bottle filled with filed down yellow PEZ in one of our cabinets in case some druggie attacked us. This way we would get out alive, and he would be think he got what he wanted. The tough part was sitting there making the PEZ looks like real pills and not eating them. B/c PEZ are addicting...  


edit - spelling mistake  :angry: [/b][/quote]
 Bwahahaha!!! Now that is AWESOME!! I love it!! 

Can I share that one?


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## Luno (Jul 31, 2005)

Safety cuts into profits.  Pure and simple.  If you think public service is any different, show me the Fire/EMS chief that pays for safety training out of their own paycheck.  On the rigs, I carried, ankle holster or IWB.  There were times I had to put down the future patient because they were taking it to the FFs or cops.  It's no cake walk, scene safety?  Non-existant, don't kid yourself.  You do the job because you love the job, and you can afford to.  I still love the job, I just can't afford to live that poorly anymore.


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## DT4EMS (Jul 31, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Luno_@Jul 31 2005, 08:11 PM
> * Safety cuts into profits.  Pure and simple.  If you think public service is any different, show me the Fire/EMS chief that pays for safety training out of their own paycheck.  On the rigs, I carried, ankle holster or IWB.  There were times I had to put down the future patient because they were taking it to the FFs or cops.  It's no cake walk, scene safety?  Non-existant, don't kid yourself.  You do the job because you love the job, and you can afford to.  I still love the job, I just can't afford to live that poorly anymore. *


 You nailed it! Man did you nail it!!  

So here is my arguement to the admin that says "It costs too much."

I say ''How much do you think you will pay when a paramedic is hurt and you failed to train?"

or

" How big of a check will your service write because you failed to train and a medic/EMT injured a patient by using too high of a level of force to defend themself?"


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## TTLWHKR (Jul 31, 2005)

> _Originally posted by DT4EMS+Jul 31 2005, 06:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (DT4EMS @ Jul 31 2005, 06:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bwahahaha!!! Now that is AWESOME!! I love it!! 

Can I share that one? [/b][/quote]
 Sure. If it helps save lives, it's worth the ten minutes. 

You need:

Pill bottle w/ some highly popular narcotic medication on the label. 50 PEZ. Nail File.


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## Luno (Aug 1, 2005)

DT, I'll put it back to you, from the admins, "it doesn't matter, I don't have to write the check, insurance does."  Well, won't that make your premiums go up?  "Yes, but that can be rolled into the levy, and it's easier to take a bill to the public to keep their EMS/Fire Service, than to take a proposed spending."  Well, isn't the safety of your employees worth the money?  "What money, everything is already spent for this fiscal year, maybe next year." 

And to answer your next question, yes, very bitter.


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## usafmedic45 (Aug 1, 2005)

The reason for the high numbers that might not jive could also be a skewing, intentional or unintentional (meaning that the original source is inaccurate), on the part of the original poster who is in the business of training EMS providers on safety issues.  :unsure:


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## Wingnut (Aug 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Luno_@Aug 1 2005, 12:56 AM
> * DT, I'll put it back to you, from the admins, "it doesn't matter, I don't have to write the check, insurance does."  Well, won't that make your premiums go up?  "Yes, but that can be rolled into the levy, and it's easier to take a bill to the public to keep their EMS/Fire Service, than to take a proposed spending."  Well, isn't the safety of your employees worth the money?  "What money, everything is already spent for this fiscal year, maybe next year."
> 
> And to answer your next question, yes, very bitter.  *


 I see this in our system , and even to an extent in the sherrif's dept. It's really up to ourselves and teamwork with our co-workers to ensure our own safety. My favorite tip I learned in "scene safety" is even if your on a 90y/o F cp call living alone with a cat, always leave yourself an open path to the door.

I worry about my husband at work all the time, and when I can afford to be an EMT he's going to worry about me. It's another one of those things that just sucks and pisses me off if I think about it too much.


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## DT4EMS (Aug 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by usafmedic45_@Aug 1 2005, 01:19 AM
> * The reason for the high numbers that might not jive could also be a skewing, intentional or unintentional (meaning that the original source is inaccurate), on the part of the original poster who is in the business of training EMS providers on safety issues.  :unsure: *


 The Chicago Sun-Times reported that employees of the city's fire/EMS department are assaulted as often as three times a day, though most attacks go unreported.8
"The most common attack is verbal. We're always called a bunch of profane names," says Bob Scates, Director of Emergency Medical Services for the Chicago Fire Fighters Union, Local 2 of the International Association of Fire Fighters. "But the assaults are getting more physical. Last week, one of our ambulances was shot at by a 14-year-old kid who wanted to shoot out one of its lights. People hit our paramedics. We had an ambulance commander attacked by a patient who was on PCP—he got his arm broken."



THis is from an old article in EMS magazine. If 1 city has three per day, with "Most attacks go unreported" How many cities are in the US and the UK?

Like I said.........I didn't make up the numbers. When it can be published they will be.

How many years have you spent on the "Civilian Streets"? I know that you are a very educated man. But surely you wouldn't say that I am skewing numbers to increase my business........

I am married with 5 children. I work full-time as a police officer and part time as a medic. I have "given away" more material than I ever charged for.  So if I can provide a service AND make some money for it...........isn't that the way ANY business works?

I own a karate school where 50% of the "kids" I teach are low income. Most have not paid for over a year. I do it to be a role model so we don't deal with them on the street. I have never asked for anything in return. I have spent the majority of my adult life in public service. My kids don't wear all the brand name clothes, we don't drive fancy cars, but I am proud of what I do......even though financially they suffer. So I do take offense, when I have done anything within these posts to deceive, or attempt otherwise to take peoples money.

I have without a doubt poured over a thousand hours of my "family time" into a course that has EMT's and Medics giving standing ovations when it is done. That means something.

The other thing is I have been approached and told "You can make a lot of money with this."

My reply was "I would just like to be able to provide for my family doing something I love." So, If I can teach EMS or Law Enforcement full time I will be happy so long as it provides for my family. I have paid my dues on the street.

I have already made the comment that if this course goes nowhere, at least I did something  about it instead of just complaining about the problem.

BTW USAF........as soon as I am given permission, the numbers will come to you first.


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## usafmedic45 (Aug 1, 2005)

I figured you were relying upon number given to you part and parcel from a source- I didn't figure there was any malfeasence on your part.  But I do think those numbers are exceedingly high- if you're including the "verbal assaults" then your numbers are going to be frighteningly high.  I'd estimate that 40-50% of EMS patients call us some sort of nasty name.  If you define that as an assault then I think that clarifies your numbers a great deal.   I don't consider an assault an assault unless they tried or did inflict physical harm.


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## DT4EMS (Aug 1, 2005)

I am definately with you on "name calling" the part where the law reads it is an assualt is with words like "I'm gonna kick/shott/stab/puch etc....". 

An important part too is "perception at the time". What was the perception of the person claiming they were assaulted at the time of the incident?

For instance, 
A guy stands across the street with a baseball bat and yells "If you come over here, I am gonna kick your a#$" The problem is means and opportunity. He has the means to strike with the bat, but no opportunity. No assault took place.

If that same person started walking toward you, staring at you, and never said a word, that IS an assault IF the person claiming they were assaulted "perceived" the threat as real.

I have used the "What did you do before EMS" line to drive this point home. 

If you worked as a fast food joint and a guy comes in doped up and says he is gonna kill you because his burger was cold...........would someone report that to the police?

What if it was a bank? What would happen then? 

I understand that it happens. I have been there, done that. I refuse to accept that it is "a part of the job". 

The reason I am here, on these forums is to generate awareness and recognition that it is a serious problem. 

There was a post in another forum of a medic recently shot shortly after knocking on the door where he went to an "abdominal pain" call.

I didn't see that on CNN or Fox. If it would have been a pizza delivery guy that would have been all over the news.

PS, Thanks for the clarification USAF!


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## Jon (Aug 2, 2005)

I've been spit at and shouted at. I've been called names. I guess that would be assualt, but I would NEVER get through my charts if I had to write IR's up for every trunk patient who spit on me...

Jon


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## DT4EMS (Aug 3, 2005)

OK USAFMEDIC I told you the numbers would be out soon, and dang........

700,000 Assaults anually.


Those are the numbers ............ The Boston Herald put them out in a story yesterday!


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## Luno (Aug 3, 2005)

Assault by WA State law is defined someone causing bodily harm or injury or *placing someone in fear of bodily harm or injury*.  Can statistics be skewed?  Of course, does that mean that attacks don't happen, or are always avoidable?  Absolutely not.  Mulder had it right, "The Truth is Out There."


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## DT4EMS (Aug 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Luno_@Aug 3 2005, 07:56 PM
> * Assault by WA State law is defined someone causing bodily harm or injury or placing someone in fear of bodily harm or injury.  Can statistics be skewed?  Of course, does that mean that attacks don't happen, or are always avoidable?  Absolutely not.  Mulder had it right, "The Truth is Out There." *


 Luno, I love it when someone makes an "educated response".   In Missouri and several other states it reads primarily the same. A Third Degree Assault in Missouri is also placing a person in "apprehension" or punching them in the mouth.

So unless we have each and every one documented, it will be difficult to tell which was a threat vs. actual hands on.

Great point though!!


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## Phridae (Aug 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Summit_@Jul 31 2005, 01:18 AM
> * Police officers carry guns, tasers, and nightsticks.
> 
> EMS carries narcotics.
> ...


 Haha, that makes so much sense!


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## rescuejew (Aug 7, 2005)

Thank the lordy assault on an EMT in NC is  FELONY.  We carry knives, wear Kevlar, and swing O2 tanks in the heat of battle.  We dont go in unles PD has cleared the scene first.

On a side note, we had a bounty out on us last year because some hoods got pissed off that a man who had run his motorcycle into the side of the truck had been declared dead on scene and began assaulting the medics; kicking the boxes, rocking the truck, beating the s*&! out of the guys.  It was a mob of 200 or more.  Shortly after, the word on the street was $3500 for killing a paramedic and $5000 for killing a cop.  G-d bless the gang unit for handing out ***-whoopins until people started to point the finger.  2 mena re in jail now and our guys are a little bit safer...


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## rescuecpt (Aug 7, 2005)

Yesterday we were mutual-aided to pick up an unconscious patient at the Pilgrim State Psychiatric Hospital.  Besides the fact that I hate the place because it's very creepy outside (lots of old, run down buildings - they only use a couple buildings these days and the rest are vacant), it houses, well, psych patients.  Which makes me nervous since they're often unpredictable (read: dangerous to me).

So I'm at the nurses station getting the transfer papers while my partners package the patient.  I ask what he's in for.  She looks at me like I have 3 heads and says "psychosis"... I replied "yes, I figured as much.  Is he dangerous to himself or others?  Is he violent?"  To which she replies "not lately".  She didn't seem to amused when I asked what "lately" meant and if I should bring a security guard with us.

He was barely conscious, so that made me feel a little better about it.  He was in a regular sinus rhythm, and his pressure was so low he couldn't lift his arms and legs if he tried.  Pinpoint pupils, but the entire staff swore up and down that there was no way he could have gotten narcotics.  Since he was about 6ft, 200lbs and we had a short ride to the hospital, we just maintained him in his current state and monitored his vitals and heart - rather than give him narcan and risk having to fight with a very angry psych patient.

Was that the best treatment? Not necessarily.  Was it the best thing for me and my crew, maybe.  We made it to the hospital in one piece.  And while there we learned that he has syphillus.    I'm very glad I wore my gloves the whole time.  And we deconned EVERYTHING before leaving the hospital.


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## Jon (Aug 7, 2005)

To quote hamlet: "VD, or not VD, that is the question which preocupies all men.."

Sound like a lot of fun.... Would have been almost better to hit him with narcan on the floor... and if he woke up, use the leathers and a guard or 3.

Oh, and that sounds like a great place... talk to PARescue sometime about Norristown State Hospital... he's played in some of their abandoned bldg's with his SAR crew...

Philly has 2 abandoned psych hosptials... one of them is the old Eastern PA Pscyh Institute, the other being Byberry State Hospital.

And we have Friends. A very nice Psych hospital.

And we have the Kirkbride Center, named for Dr. Thomas Kirkbride. This is located in the old Pennsylvania Hospital for the Insane. Great facility... lots of history.

And a few other crazy places...


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## asysin2leads (Aug 10, 2005)

>On the rigs, I carried, ankle holster or IWB.

Unless you're a licensed law enforcement officer, coming on to the ambulance I'm working on with a gun, tazer, or whatever the hell you wannabe weekend warriors can order out of the damn magazines will get you an oxygen bottle up the *** with the regulator still attached. 
Gunplay has no place in emergency medicine. Take it to the paintball range or SOCOM. Man I can't stand cowboys. You want to be cop, go do the training, show you have the professionalism and state of mind to perform your duty while armed. Anyone got the stats for how many people are killed by yahoos with ankle holsters?
I just love this cavalier attitude, yeah, sure carrying a concealed firearm is illegal, and is dangerous, but you know I GOTTA PROTECT MYSELF!, lol. And I love how you drew it on people. Man, remind me NEVER EVER to get hurt in your neck of the woods. Can't we get people like this out of my profession?


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## ffemt8978 (Aug 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by asysin2leads_@Aug 9 2005, 10:01 PM
> * carrying a concealed firearm is illegal, *


 What makes you think it's illegal?


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## DT4EMS (Aug 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by asysin2leads_@Aug 10 2005, 12:01 AM
> * >On the rigs, I carried, ankle holster or IWB.
> 
> Unless you're a licensed law enforcement officer, coming on to the ambulance I'm working on with a gun, tazer, or whatever the hell you wannabe weekend warriors can order out of the damn magazines will get you an oxygen bottle up the *** with the regulator still attached.
> ...


 I can't find it.......... :unsure: 

Where is it at? Which post talks about being armed.


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## MMiz (Aug 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by asysin2leads_@Aug 10 2005, 01:01 AM
> * >On the rigs, I carried, ankle holster or IWB.
> 
> Unless you're a licensed law enforcement officer, coming on to the ambulance I'm working on with a gun, tazer, or whatever the hell you wannabe weekend warriors can order out of the damn magazines will get you an oxygen bottle up the *** with the regulator still attached.
> ...


 It's my understanding that Luno has extensive training in firearms and is a trained Tactical Medic.

That's one heck of a statement to make.  Weekend warriors?  Oh please.  They give me a pair of trauma shears, an O2 tank, and a nasal cannula to deal patients where I work.

If you're looking for a bunch of people to start an argument with you're going to have to try some other forum.  I can only wish someone as skilled and intelligent as Luno would come my aid if I needed EMS.


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## ffemt8978 (Aug 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Luno_@Jul 31 2005, 06:11 PM
> * Safety cuts into profits.  Pure and simple.  If you think public service is any different, show me the Fire/EMS chief that pays for safety training out of their own paycheck.  On the rigs, I carried, ankle holster or IWB.  There were times I had to put down the future patient because they were taking it to the FFs or cops.  It's no cake walk, scene safety?  Non-existant, don't kid yourself.  You do the job because you love the job, and you can afford to.  I still love the job, I just can't afford to live that poorly anymore. *


 DT4EMS,

Here is the original post.


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## DT4EMS (Aug 10, 2005)

Ahhhh, thanks.

Now I can respond.

While I was still working in South Florida on the ambulance, there were several EMT's and Medics that carried concealed. Florida has a conceal carry law. Once a person takes a safety course, pays the fee and passes the background investigation they can carry.

As a police officer most departments have a policy either mandating off-duty carry or "reccomending" it. So there are a lot of peeople like myself that do both EMS and LEO. Therefore I used to have my handgun with me at all times.

The reason is we put some people in jail that don't want to be there.........If they see you on the street or in a store with your family, it is not uncommon for them to want revenge. Well guess what......I would respond on an ambulance and deal with the same scrote bags I arrested the week before.

 I am happy for those that work in an area where assault on EMS is not an issue. I was shot at in Florida standing outside of our base. I had been threatened "If you bring him across that canal, we will kill you too" and numerous other incidents. BTW 6 officers WERE present.

My ambulance was car-jacked on a rural stretch of highway in Missouri while I was in the back with a patient............so these things do happen.

When a person READS what I believe they can make an informed decision about what I am teaching EMS providers. I am NOT teaching people "How to fight" I am teaching escape techniques and preperation for the legal issues that follow.


Again, it is great that there are still areas where medics don't get attacked on a regular basis. But statiscally those places are getting fewer and farther between.

look at www.davesems.com 

Now as far as people being weekend warriors and striking someone with an O2 bottle............just make sure it is the proper level on a force continuum or you will go to jail and your service will write a fat check.

That is another reason I put together my course was to get people to understand that hitting someone in the head with an O2 Bottle is considered DEADLY FORCE!

So if the person wasn't trying to KILL YOU, you can not do that! 

What I tell people that take my course is "I am trying to buy you a second." A second to make a decision, A second to escape etc.

There are ambulance services that allow their people to carry handcuffs, expandable batons etc. I guess there is a need in their area.........

You would think they have lawyers that have looked at all of the angles about alllowing such a practice.

I don't think it should be a blanket answer to allow all EMS personnel to carry, but if you are in a conceal state and you meet the requirements, so be it.

I just think we should be careful about talking about issues we either don't understand or have no experience in. Not all areas are the same. :unsure:


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## Jon (Aug 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ffemt8978+Aug 10 2005, 02:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (ffemt8978 @ Aug 10 2005, 02:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-asysin2leads_@Aug 9 2005, 10:01 PM
> * carrying a concealed firearm is illegal, *


What makes you think it's illegal? [/b][/quote]
 In PA, State DOH requires all services have a policy to the effect of "No members are permitted to carry any firearm (Poss. weapon... not sure) unless a law enforcement officer funcitioning as a law enforcement officer" now, my Fire Co. is an old-school rural FD... we have a gun locker in the bay.... leave your pistol, take the key... get on the truck.... Only used by 1 member who often carries conceled... he changes clothes before going on shift, leaves the gun there the whole day.... also used by our paid guy who "happens to be" a cop in the same municipality... he sometimes will go between the firehouse and his 2 cop jobs for 72 hours straight.

I've heard of some guys in my county carrying tasers on their rig.... they have unnofficial agreements with the cops.... the cop didn't see it, and will give them a cartridge....

I wouldn't have a problem with a mature, responsible partner, in law enforcement, who felt the need to carry conceled on the rig. I would have a problem with "Joe Whacker" getting a conceled carry permit and carring on my rig.

I'm 21 next year, and will probably get a permit and carry conceled, but not at the squad.

Jon


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## asysin2leads (Aug 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by MMiz+Aug 10 2005, 04:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (MMiz @ Aug 10 2005, 04:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-asysin2leads_@Aug 10 2005, 01:01 AM
> * >On the rigs, I carried, ankle holster or IWB.
> 
> Unless you're a licensed law enforcement officer, coming on to the ambulance I'm working on with a gun, tazer, or whatever the hell you wannabe weekend warriors can order out of the damn magazines will get you an oxygen bottle up the *** with the regulator still attached.
> ...


It's my understanding that Luno has extensive training in firearms and is a trained Tactical Medic.

That's one heck of a statement to make.  Weekend warriors?  Oh please.  They give me a pair of trauma shears, an O2 tank, and a nasal cannula to deal patients where I work.

If you're looking for a bunch of people to start an argument with you're going to have to try some other forum.  I can only wish someone as skilled and intelligent as Luno would come my aid if I needed EMS.   [/b][/quote]
 I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm stating a fact. The 'M' in EMS is stands for medicine, and guns and medicine just don't mix. I've worked with NYPD officers who work EMS as a side job, and with special forces medics who work civilian EMS at home. They don't carry, so your argument that "He is a skilled tactical medic" kinda just goes out the window. If you're working as a tactical medic, in full gear, with great big letters on you that say "TACTICAL MEDIC", with SWAT around you, fine, hey have all the guns you want. However, if you're working as a normal, run of the mill EMS provider, leave the handcannons at home, hmmmm? The only people who use ankle holsters are undercover cops, mobsters, and wannabe weekend warriors waiting to shoot somebody. I stand by my statement, get these friggin' yahoos out of my profession. I'll tell you, that stuff about medics in South Florida is scary, scary, scary stuff.


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## rescuecpt (Aug 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by asysin2leads_@Aug 10 2005, 07:05 PM
> * The only people who use ankle holsters are undercover cops, mobsters, and wannabe weekend warriors waiting to shoot somebody. I stand by my statement, get these friggin' yahoos out of my profession. *


 I know a LEO who will take his gun on the rig with him when he absolutely has to because he couldn't get home before a call to lock it up.  It's tough when you're a Chief and you're called straight in from your job as a LEO - also, same as someone else mentioned - people he has arrested, etc. happen to live in some of the neighborhoods where he works as a medic - and people have been a threat before.  He has as much of a right to protect himself and his patients on the ambulance as he does anyone else when he's carrying - which is supposed to be all the time.


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## asysin2leads (Aug 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by rescuecpt+Aug 10 2005, 08:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (rescuecpt @ Aug 10 2005, 08:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-asysin2leads_@Aug 10 2005, 07:05 PM
> * The only people who use ankle holsters are undercover cops, mobsters, and wannabe weekend warriors waiting to shoot somebody. I stand by my statement, get these friggin' yahoos out of my profession. *


I know a LEO who will take his gun on the rig with him when he absolutely has to because he couldn't get home before a call to lock it up.  It's tough when you're a Chief and you're called straight in from your job as a LEO - also, same as someone else mentioned - people he has arrested, etc. happen to live in some of the neighborhoods where he works as a medic - and people have been a threat before.  He has as much of a right to protect himself and his patients on the ambulance as he does anyone else when he's carrying - which is supposed to be all the time. [/b][/quote]
You're right, he does have a right to protect himself. He doesn't have the right to endanger the safety of the crew, patient, and bystanders by bringing a gun in when it isn't expected. If he is in such danger that he needs to be armed when he responds, then he should pass the Chief's hat onto someone else. Guns and ambulances, they don't mix.  Armed EMS providers. This ain't Israel, folks. I sure hope none of the people any of these guys work with last sight isn't gonna be the drunk guy reaching for the crew member's ankle holster on a call. And don't give me that NRA crap that you need a gun to defend your crew and patient. That's what the POLICE are for.


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## ffemt8978 (Aug 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by asysin2leads_@Aug 10 2005, 06:39 PM
> * That's what the POLICE are for. *


 Assuming you have the police on scene with you and don't have to wait 35-45 minutes like we do.

I agree that we shouldn't have to carry firearms in EMS, but I'm a firm believer in the right to defend myself if needed.


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## rescuecpt (Aug 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by asysin2leads_@Aug 10 2005, 08:39 PM
> * You're right, he does have a right to protect himself. He doesn't have the right to endanger the safety of the crew, patient, and bystanders by bringing a gun in when it isn't expected. If he is in such danger that he needs to be armed when he responds, then he should pass the Chief's hat onto someone else. Guns and ambulances, they don't mix.  Armed EMS providers. This ain't Israel, folks. I sure hope none of the people any of these guys work with last sight isn't gonna be the drunk guy reaching for the crew member's ankle holster on a call. And don't give me that NRA crap that you need a gun to defend your crew and patient. That's what the POLICE are for. *


 Just having a gun is not dangerous.  If it is properly secured and the person carrying it is trained and competent, there is no difference than if that officer was on the street or on a subway or in a precinct.  Trained officers are aware of their service piece at all times.  Guns don't just fall out of holsters, nor do they just slide out.

Remember, guns don't kill people, people kill people.


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## asysin2leads (Aug 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by rescuecpt_@Aug 11 2005, 09:17 AM
> * Just having a gun is not dangerous.  If it is properly secured and the person carrying it is trained and competent, there is no difference than if that officer was on the street or on a subway or in a precinct.  Trained officers are aware of their service piece at all times.  Guns don't just fall out of holsters, nor do they just slide out.
> 
> Remember, guns don't kill people, people kill people.    *


 As for the not dangerous think, actually, yes having a gun IS dangerous. Secondly, I have police officers accompany me on rig for various types of ride alongs. Its not with the fact of them being armed, while on duty, in uniform that I have a problem with. Its people carrying when they are not. As the person working on the ambulance, I want a great big flashing sign saying "I HAVE A GUN", so I can be conscientious of it. I grew up around firearms. I know how to use them, and I say they have no place on anyone working EMS, if not because I'd like to have the notion, at the very basis level of everybody THAT EMS DOES NOT CARRY SO DON'T SHOOT AT ME. Yes, I know there will be people out there who will shoot at you in spite of, or because of, that fact, but it remains that being acuated with people who carry firearms drastically increases your risk of being shot. And don't tell me there isn't a chance of someone getting gun out of an ankle holster. That's just plain stupid.


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## rescuejew (Aug 12, 2005)

I have to say, if it came down to brass tacks, I wouldnt want a gun on my bus, either, it wouldnt make me feel any safer, its just another gun I have to worry about.  

In my experience, fights end up being hand to hand anyway and every time I have been shot at, I never found out who was doing it.

To DT4EMS:  Referring to my previous post: JOKE!  But whatever you teach, you better believe that if I perceive that my life or my partners life is endanger, I will do WHATEVER I have to do to disable the attacker to save our lives.  To hell with semantics.  I WILL be going home at the end of my shift and so will my partner if I have anything to say about it.  Its better than a couple of people that work here that have told me they would just run and leave me alone to get my *** kicked.
 I dont just go around arbitrarily bonking people on the head with a D cylinder...


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## rescuecpt (Aug 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by asysin2leads_@Aug 12 2005, 12:07 AM
> * As for the not dangerous think, actually, yes having a gun IS dangerous. Secondly, I have police officers accompany me on rig for various types of ride alongs. Its not with the fact of them being armed, while on duty, in uniform that I have a problem with. Its people carrying when they are not. As the person working on the ambulance, I want a great big flashing sign saying "I HAVE A GUN", so I can be conscientious of it. I grew up around firearms. I know how to use them, and I say they have no place on anyone working EMS, if not because I'd like to have the notion, at the very basis level of everybody THAT EMS DOES NOT CARRY SO DON'T SHOOT AT ME. Yes, I know there will be people out there who will shoot at you in spite of, or because of, that fact, but it remains that being acuated with people who carry firearms drastically increases your risk of being shot. And don't tell me there isn't a chance of someone getting gun out of an ankle holster. That's just plain stupid. *


 We're not talking about some stranger hopping on the rig here, we're talking about someone that is known to the crew (very well, actually).  If you have people you don't know hopping on the rig with guns, then yeah, I'd have a problem with that too.  LEOs are always on duty, whether in uniform or not.  I am perfectly comfortable riding with the person I ride with and their skills not only as a LEO but as a medic, as I should be.  If not, I would need to find a different shift/partner.

PS - I didn't say someone can't get a gun out of the holster.  Don't put words in my mouth.


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## rescuejew (Aug 12, 2005)

I agree with you rescuecpt, if I havd the same constant partner EVERYDAY, then sure, I might be more comfortable with the idea of a weapon on the bus.  We dont do that here, and I may have a different partner every shift so I'm less likely to be comfortable with people I am not as familiar with, but I think you have a very valid point.


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## Wingnut (Aug 12, 2005)

The whole problem boils down to the fact that some people can be trusted with guns and some can't. I can understand wanting to carry one on the rig, but some people just are not responsible enough to handle it.


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## Ridryder911 (Aug 12, 2005)

I agree, weapons have no place on rigs... even as a licensed & bonded officer.. you won't see me carrry one either. Sorry I am a medic not a cop.. I could see the charges now  from the D.A... as well as letigation from the family suing you.. I am sure your EMS inurance & city or company attorney does not know about carrying a wepon unles, you are supposed to  (i.e tactical EMS etc..) . Do you have a policy to carry one with mandatory certifying you & is you & your service bonded ? 

Don't buy the "don't have time to lock it up".. he doesn't have a gun lock & maybe a lockbox to place in his trunk ?... 

Our policy is short & sweet.. no weapons.. you have one on you, automatic dismissal. no questions or arguements...

Be sfe,
Ridryder911


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## DT4EMS (Aug 12, 2005)

Let me make a point........

I chose to no longer carry a firearm on an ambulance several years ago. Because of the car-jacking incident. I too looked at it from a legal standpoint. With that same decision I chose to work in areas that I didn't work at the PD.

There are some places that "overlook" the fact some of their medics are armed. 

There are places that allow/issue their medics handcuffs. I don't think that is a good idea, but that is what they do. I think if you are having to handcuff a person, LEO should be  the ones doing it. A ton of lawsits come in law enforcement of "handcuffing".

Some places issue OC/Mace and expandable batons. Again that is up to that particular service. I think there should be training an policies in place if a service choses to go that route. 

To summarize:

1) I do not carry a gun on an abmulance while working in EMS.

2) I do not want people going onto scenes they KNOW are unsafe.

3) On an ambulace I act as a medic. I don't go onto KNOWN unsafe scenes, and I don't overstep my bounds. Just like when I am in my police role, I don't offer to help one of the guys with an IV or anything ALS. I will do BLS that was requested.

4) In the DT4EMS course we teach recognition, prevention, and if you have to ESCAPE. Nothing aggressive. The only takedowns we teach are when you or your partner have been grabbed! 

5) I believe EMS should be seen as a care provider and not confused with LEO. That is why I have a section about uniform confusion. There are some services that wear uniforms that closely resemble law enforcement. 

6) The GOAL of DT4EMS is "To prevent at least one assault" that means assaults on providers as well as patients. When you educate people on what an assault is and actually teach them the LAW they are less likely to assault a patient. 

All of our defense techniques begin whith getting you hands up and open. This way you turn bystanders into witnesses. Plus how can someone say you were attacking them if your hands are up and open. You can't hold onto someone with your hands up and open.

Please don't confuse an attacker with an uncooperative patient in these threads. I see a lot of problems with that. People may confuse the point thinking I am advocating force against an uncooperative patient. That is not the fact at all. We have a section to cover the law in "Use of force in medical restraint". There is a law about that and we teach about it.

I hope this celars up some confusion about what I believe and what I stand for.


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## asysin2leads (Aug 14, 2005)

DT4EMS, I think you should add a part to your course about "The difference between carrying your personal firearm on you when you are at home, and when you are working for a service with insurance and regulations and whatnot." People seem to be missing that fact. I think its interesting their are people who have less of a problem with carrying a firearm while working EMS than they have with administering narcotics to those who need them. Guns...ok. Pain meds...Bad. Some real interesting medicine you're practicing there.


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## MMiz (Aug 14, 2005)

What about in a rural setting when there is no backup available?

One of the guys I work with, a FF/EMT/LEO, a 40+ y/o responsible father, is as far away from the whacker stance one can possibly be.  Where he lives there is one officer working the one squad car the small town has.  Backup is 20+ minutes away when available.

He's been called several times while working the ambulance to respond as backup for a local officer.  He'll respond, park his ambulance a ways away, and approach the scene on foot.  Is this legal by the book?  Maybe not.  Is this the best solution?  Probably not.  Is this a reality of living in a rural area where PD aren't always available.  I think so.

This is the same guy that does it by the books.  He'll park the ambulance in a real spot instead of parking right in front of a business.  He'll REALLY wash and clean the rig after every shift.  He'll document the heck out of a patient.  He's been doing this for 20+ years, he's not here anymore for the whacker status or lights and sirens, he's here because he loves EMS.  His car, even as a volunteer FF and PD doesn't have a lightbar on it.  He's just a normal guy that at one point carried a gun because of the reality of rural EMS.  Is that the wrong decision?


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## ffemt8978 (Aug 14, 2005)

> _Originally posted by asysin2leads_@Aug 13 2005, 10:08 PM
> * DT4EMS, I think you should add a part to your course about "The difference between carrying your personal firearm on you when you are at home, and when you are working for a service with insurance and regulations and whatnot." *


 Actually, I understood the difference quite well.  I just wanted to know what made you think it was illegal.  Regulations and laws are two completely different things.



> *I think its interesting their are people who have less of a problem with carrying a firearm while working EMS than they have with administering narcotics to those who need them.*



I agree with you about this point, and it is indeed a sad state of affairs that people in EMS should even have to consider carrying a firearm for protection.  The patient should be our secondary concern, right after our own safety.


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## Ridryder911 (Aug 14, 2005)

I thought this topic was interesting enough I discussed it with a friend of mine who is a assistant district attorney. He forewarned about carrying a weapon, unless your purpose of the job, the scope of training is is included for this .. i.e EMT tactical or Police/Security EMS in which you have dual roles. 

Carrying a concealed weapon is of course according to local State & local laws. But he forewarns that even having a weapon may be interperted as pre-intent.  The normal work enviroment of others in the same situation (i.e. normal for EMS, other Rescuers to carry weapons) would be considered that it was part of that person job duties. He strongly advised against it, seeking other alternatives to prevent possible litigitaion & criminal proscution could follow. 

Be safe,
Ridryder 911


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## rescuecpt (Aug 14, 2005)

> _Originally posted by asysin2leads_@Aug 14 2005, 12:08 AM
> * I think its interesting their are people who have less of a problem with carrying a firearm while working EMS than they have with administering narcotics to those who need them. Guns...ok. Pain meds...Bad. Some real interesting medicine you're practicing there. *


 Hope you're not referring to me.  I give narcs, never said I didn't.  I actually ask for them whenever the protocol is met.  But since they are a controlled substance, I can't just give them whenever I want, I have to get the MD to give me an order.  And that doesn't happen often.  Not my fault, I'm not about to lie to medical control to get an order for narcs.  That's plain stupid.


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## Luno (Aug 14, 2005)

Okay, well, since I guess I'm the subject of this firestorm, I'll poke my head up again, asysin2leads, I'll tell you that I was an idealist like you apparently are, and I thought along the same lines, never enter a scene that wasn't safe, weapons have no business on rigs, etc....  Then reality hit me, unfortunately, but none the less.  Bounties on EMS heads, being shot at, not around the gunfire, but being shot at.  Working for a private service that provides 911 response with FD support, and having the FDs having ballistic vests, and you're supposed to hide behind that star of life on your shoulder?  Having to take down crackheads because they're taking it to the cops, are you just going to stand there, and let the guys you work with daily get it taken to them?  Sorry, if I offend your view of EMS, but there was a saying in the crews, incidently stolen from PD and SOCOM, 1*.  Live by it, or die without it.  I'd probably agree with you, 99% of the time, weapons have no business being on the rigs.  99% of the EMTs whether B/I/P have no business carrying a weapon, and are probably more of a danger to the people standing next to them on the range then they are to the assaulter standing in front of them.  I don't know you, and as such won't assume that you know more or less about physical attacks than I do.  As such, I won't judge your judgement, and I don't know where your stations are, but I will say, that I wasn't the only one to carry a weapon, when someone breaks into your station, with their buddy who's bleeding out, and points a weapon at you, and says "save him," I'm not the one who's going to tell other people whose *** is on the line, don't protect yourself.  We can go into semantics about 21ft, draw times, point shooting, etc... if you'd like, but the reality is if that is what helps you get through the shift, and you go home to your family, tell me how driving home, vs. being driven in a box is wrong.  I have learned through the years that there are no absolutes in life, and I hesistate to draw those lines, and I probably feel closer to your point of view than you know, but there are always exceptions.


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## Luno (Aug 14, 2005)

Let me also state that I don't advocate carrying a weapon on a rig, but if you do, there are many things that need to be taken into consideration.

1.  Can I do this safely?
2.  Will this negatively affect my ability to do my job?
3.  If you doing it without "approval" (which we were not) what will happen if you are found out?
4.  Can you take another human's life?

These are all questions that you need to answer before you decide whether or not you are going to carry.  After you answer all of those, and if you still decide to carry, you have to answer the following.

1.  Can I do this safely?
2.  Is this going to be effective, and in what circumstances will this be effective, if any?
3.  If I get into a physical altercation, will it "fall out?"  If so, why?  If not, why?
4.  Do I take enough risk that this will make a difference?

Now skipping ahead, past all the threat assessment, weapon and calibre size BS, everyday, you put a weapon on, you need to ask yourself.

1.  Can I do this safely?
2.  What keeps my weapon out of someone elses hands and being used against me?
3.  Does my partner know?  
4.  Can I trust my partner to do what needs to be done, if I can't, and are they aware of the extra risks that are taken by having a weapon in the rig?
5.  As an EMT, whose job it is to save lives, can I take another human's life?  Because if you can't, leave it in the safe, it will get you killed.
6.  Do I have the training where I feel competant, when/if I have to use it?
7.  Do I have the repetitions to do what I need to, when the adrenaline dump hits?
8.  Why am I doing this?

I'm not a fan of every EMT being armed, but then again, I'm not a huge fan of most cops having a weapon either.  Unfortunately, in certain circumstances, I do feel that certain steps are needed.  And I'm not going to go into LTL weapons, and such, because I feel that if you/my life is endangered, the threat must be stopped, and while a handgun in woefully inadequate for the job, it's the best tool at hand.

And I'll take that "weekend warrior wannabe" statement in the ignorance in which it was given.


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## rescuejew (Aug 14, 2005)

LUNO:  I stick with riding the fence on the gun argument, but I think I posted earlier in this particular forum stating that I would do whatever I have to do to someone else if they have me backed in a corner, to get home.  I, like you, have been shot AT, assaulted, threatened.  Most of us here carry knives that we term "seat-belt-cutters"  because in NC, it is illegal for us to be "armed".  

There are ways to defend oneself and I'm not sure how I feel about carrying concealed, but I do know this, if it came down between me and some hoodrat, he better come correct, because he'll be in for the fight of his life.  I WILL go home relatively the same way I went to work. Good for you Luno for sticking to your guns, no pun intended.  

I think this forum is intended to share opinions, not provoke arguments over who's right...or am I assuming incorrectly???


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## Luno (Aug 14, 2005)

Rescue, I'm not here to argue rights to self-protection, or otherwise, I've made my decision, and I'm not adverse to discussing why.  The reality of it though is that it is a personal decision.  The decision to carry a weapon shouldn't be taken on lightly, if you have a doubt, don't do it.  It's that cut and dry, if you decide to, then know why you are, get the training, and practice.  Realize that you are adding an additional variable into the mix.  I won't be the poster child out there saying that they should, I will say that if you do, this is what you need to be aware of.  I've seen too many people that shouldn't but that goes for all kinds of things, i.e. 300 lbs FFs who will need a rescue, just from walking past a set of stairs, cops whose guns have rusted into their holsters, or even worse that draw down on grandmothers, and we shouldn't even start on mall ninjas.......  I think that by turning a blind eye to the fact that some do, allows the weekend warriors to introduce another potentially dangerous variable into a charged situation.  If you are uncomfortable with one, then don't, and be proud, not on the fence, it's an individual decision, and your opinion is more valid to you, than 1000 of mine.  I would recommend something along the lines of DT's course, because if you study the anatomy of an attack, it helps you deal with the moment when it occurs, but it sounds like you're doing great already.  Stay safe -luke


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## asysin2leads (Aug 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Luno_@Aug 14 2005, 02:55 PM
> * Okay, well, since I guess I'm the subject of this firestorm, I'll poke my head up again, asysin2leads, I'll tell you that I was an idealist like you apparently are, and I thought along the same lines, never enter a scene that wasn't safe, weapons have no business on rigs, etc.... Then reality hit me, unfortunately, but none the less. Bounties on EMS heads, being shot at, not around the gunfire, but being shot at. Working for a private service that provides 911 response with FD support, and having the FDs having ballistic vests, and you're supposed to hide behind that star of life on your shoulder? Having to take down crackheads because they're taking it to the cops, are you just going to stand there, and let the guys you work with daily get it taken to them? Sorry, if I offend your view of EMS, but there was a saying in the crews, incidently stolen from PD and SOCOM, 1*. Live by it, or die without it. I'd probably agree with you, 99% of the time, weapons have no business being on the rigs. 99% of the EMTs whether B/I/P have no business carrying a weapon, and are probably more of a danger to the people standing next to them on the range then they are to the assaulter standing in front of them. I don't know you, and as such won't assume that you know more or less about physical attacks than I do. As such, I won't judge your judgement, and I don't know where your stations are, but I will say, that I wasn't the only one to carry a weapon, when someone breaks into your station, with their buddy who's bleeding out, and points a weapon at you, and says "save him," I'm not the one who's going to tell other people whose *** is on the line, don't protect yourself. We can go into semantics about 21ft, draw times, point shooting, etc... if you'd like, but the reality is if that is what helps you get through the shift, and you go home to your family, tell me how driving home, vs. being driven in a box is wrong. I have learned through the years that there are no absolutes in life, and I hesistate to draw those lines, and I probably feel closer to your point of view than you know, but there are always exceptions. *


First off all, I am far from an idealist. Don't believe me and I'll show you the missing tooth I have from a psych patient who decided to use my face as a vehicle for their misguided anger. You live quite far from reality, as I know many people who have been shot at, even shot, and they don't carry guns. But I guess the world you live in is different from their's. Your attitude, your slogan's which sound like they came out of a cheesy Steven Seagal movie ("Live by it, or die by it", "Can you take another human being's life?" etc.) makes it perfectly clear that even if EMS providers were allowed to be armed, you, personally, would be the LAST guy I would want to have a firearm, as you present MORE of a danger to EMS providers out there then all of the gangbangers, crackheads, and liquored up trailer trash combined. You look forward to having a gun, you LIKE having a gun on you, because you think you have some kind of "warrior's code" going on. What a load of crap. Listen, just go become like an armed security guard, or sign up for the armed forces, or something, just stop bringing a bad name to my profession, all right? Because if you really feel that strongly about your beliefs about carrying a concealed firearm while you are working, I would LOVE to take it to your home state's certifying agency and see THEIR opinion on you running around half cocked with a handcannon on your ankle. I am sick and tired of nut jobs like you hiding behind dark sunglasses and ******** slogans, ready to get the people who make this profession great KILLED for their crap.

EDIT: for content


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## Luno (Aug 15, 2005)

I stand behind what I said, you are an idealist, spend time at the other end of a barrel, then speak intelligently.  Your claim to knowledge is you lost a tooth from some psyche?  I understand that weapons are an emotionally charged issue with you.  However, you have pontificated your opinions, yet fail to back them up with facts.  I'm interested in exactly how far from reality I do live, as you seem to have an inside track.  Perhaps your idealism still believes that we don't get shot at, we don't run in areas where there are bounties, or perhaps you just choose to ignore that.  If you run in a major EMS city, then you've been there, and paid your dues.  So do as you wish.  If not, and someday, you'd like to run with an agency that services the scum of the earth, I'm sure I can set up a ride along.  I'd be happy to show you how to subdue 240lbs man who is kicking the christ out of his mother.  How to take down a crackhead who is taking it to two cops.  Are there things out there that we shouldn't be involved in?  Absolutely, do we have a choice sometimes?  No.  I would also say, as much as I disagree with you, and I would rue the day that you were appointed my partner, I wouldn't carry, for exactly the reasons I stated.  

Oh, and about my "liking" to carry a gun?  I do carry, why does that intimidate you?  You are throwing around terms like "gun nut," "half-cocked," and "lack of common sense" as if you have a legitimate reason to doubt any of my qualification.  "Can you take another human being's life?"  Check with any certified LEO trainer, it's just a real consideration, how far from reality are you?  And now I do carry, but it's just part of the job.  There are no accidental shooting, but I guess that I'm just relieving the burden of ignorance for you.  And finally about your profession?  The day your signature is on my State or NR cert, you may lend some credibility to that, until that day, stay in your lane.


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## asysin2leads (Aug 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Luno_@Aug 15 2005, 01:45 AM
> * I stand behind what I said, you are an idealist, spend time at the other end of a barrel, then speak intelligently. Your claim to knowledge is you lost a tooth from some psyche? I understand that weapons are an emotionally charged issue with you. However, you have pontificated your opinions, yet fail to back them up with facts. I'm interested in exactly how far from reality I do live, as you seem to have an inside track. Perhaps your idealism still believes that we don't get shot at, we don't run in areas where there are bounties, or perhaps you just choose to ignore that. Your profile says NY, if it's the city, and you are FDNY EMS, my hat's off to you. If you run in a major EMS city, then you've been there, and paid your dues. So do as you wish. If not, and someday, you'd like to run with an agency that services the scum of the earth, I'm sure I can set up a ride along. I'd be happy to show you how to subdue 240lbs man who is kicking the christ out of his mother. How to take down a crackhead who is taking it to two cops. Are there things out there that we shouldn't be involved in? Absolutely, do we have a choice sometimes? No. I would also say, as much as I disagree with you, and I would rue the day that you were appointed my partner, I wouldn't carry, for exactly the reasons I stated.
> 
> Oh, and about my "liking" to carry a gun? I do carry, why does that intimidate you? You are throwing around terms like "gun nut," "half-cocked," and "lack of common sense" as if you have a legitimate reason to doubt any of my qualification. "Can you take another human being's life?" Check with any certified LEO trainer, it's just a real consideration, how far from reality are you? And now I do carry, but it's just part of the job. There are no accidental shooting, but I guess that I'm just relieving the burden of ignorance for you. And finally about your profession? The day your signature is on my State or NR cert, you may lend some credibility to that, until that day, stay in your lane. *


The reason I use terms like "gun nut" and "half cocked" is because I have my doubts about anyone who uses action movie slogans to justify carrying a concealed weapon on board an ambulance. As for intimidation, please, I don't scare that easy, I'm too stupid. What BOTHERS me is the thought of you getting partnered up with some easily impressionable young EMT and feeding him your nonsense, and then subsequently reading about his and your untimely demise. In addition, I can't imagine whatever service you work for knows about or condones your actions, nor if your local state department of health thinks you should be allowed to carry while you are on duty in EMS, permit or no. Yet you decide that YOU are qualified, not anybody else who has a say in the matter, to decide that its really safe to carry one, and that to me is the height of arrogance. The fact that you cannot recognize that carrying a concealed weapon onboard an ambulance is dangerous, let alone probably illegal, says a lot. 
Firearms aren't the emotionally charged issue with me, I grew up around guns, I know how to use them, I am very good friends with many people who have them. What is an emotionally charged issue is someone who through their arrogance endangers themselves and others and tries to back it up with war stories and slogans.    
Just for the record, the police say this about firearms. The use of deadly physical force is a last resort. It is not to be used as a means of coercion, or a means to intimidate, or any other reason than to kill a person who presents an imminent and complete risk to life. You are not their to kill anybody. If you like to carry a gun and where a uniform, by all means, become a cop, and stop endangering those who have pledged their lives to help others. Again, I remit to you that if it is "part of the job", then your employer and local certifying agency shouldn't have a problem with your views, right? But I'll tell you what, seeing as your profile says Washington, I'll do my own little research project on what they think about EMS providers packing heat while saving lives. I'll get back to you.


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## ffemt8978 (Aug 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by asysin2leads_@Aug 15 2005, 01:26 AM
> *The fact that you cannot recognize that carrying a concealed weapon onboard an ambulance is dangerous, let alone ILLEGAL, says a lot. *


I would like to point out one more time,

*IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO CARRY FIREARMS ON AN AMBULANCE IN EVERY STATE!*

It may be illegal where you are, but that does not mean it applies the same in every state.  I know for a fact that it is not illegal in this state to carry a firearm on an ambulance.  Please make sure your information is accurate before you accuse someone of an illegal act.


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## asysin2leads (Aug 15, 2005)

Maybe not illegal per se, but show me the EMS office that thinks its ok for the ambulance service which has the insurance or protocols in place to cover armed providers, and I will be a might surprised. And if its all right to carry while working EMS, why does it need to be concealed? If you need to get to it that much, and its perfectly ok to carry, then why not just have it on your hip? Why the cloak and dagger?


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## Luno (Aug 15, 2005)

> *The reason I use terms like "gun nut" and "half cocked" is because I have my doubts about anyone who uses action movie slogans to justify carrying a concealed weapon on board an ambulance.*


  Okay, you are entirely entitled to your doubts, my state certifications and licenses speak for themselves.  Not only in EMS.  Your assumption of "action movie slogans" is weak at best, these are things that are out of your lane, but I would be more than happy to attempt to explain them to you.  The only purpose of a firearm in a protective situation is to stop the threat.  If you cannot stomach that, then by all means, don't bring one.  A simple point that was poorly assumed to mean something else.  



> *Yet you decide that YOU are qualified, not anybody else who has a say in the matter, to decide that its really safe to carry one, and that to me is the height of arrogance.*


Actually I am qualified by multiple states law enforcement testing criteria, including the Department of State (current), and the US Navy (current).  So again, you assume, on very little information, which in my opinion is the height of ignorance.



> *What BOTHERS me is the thought of you getting partnered up with some easily impressionable young EMT and feeding him your nonsense, and then subsequently reading about his and your untimely demise. *


 Well, I may disagree with your opinion, but I guess everyone's got a right to one.



> *The fact that you cannot recognize that carrying a concealed weapon onboard an ambulance is dangerous, let alone ILLEGAL, says a lot.*


The fact that you assume that everywhere it is illegal, brings me back to a previous point, about your assumptions.  In this state it is not.



> *The fact that you cannot recognize that carrying a concealed weapon onboard an ambulance is dangerous, let alone ILLEGAL, says a lot.*


  While you continue to portray that carrying a concealed weapon aboard an ambulance is dangerous, you have yet to provide proof.  



> *The use of deadly physical force is a last resort. It is not to be used as a means of coercion, or a means to intimidate, or any other reason than to kill a person who presents an imminent and complete risk to life.*


I would suggest that you review what a force continuum is, and where it fits in, deadly force is not the last resort, it is a response to a threat.  And as you aren't a LEO, I would like to draw your attention to "proning" a subject, at gunpoint, it is done as a means of coercion, and expressly to intimidate someone.   



> *Again, I remit to you that if it is "part of the job", then your employer and local certifying agency shouldn't have a problem with your views, right? *


 Had you read my previous postings in their entirety, you would have recognized the error of this, and now?  No, it is just part of my job.


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## Luno (Aug 15, 2005)

> *Maybe not illegal per se, but show me the EMS office that thinks its ok for the ambulance service which has the insurance or protocols in place to cover armed providers, and I will be a might surprised. And if its all right to carry while working EMS, why does it need to be concealed? If you need to get to it that much, and its perfectly ok to carry, then why not just have it on your hip? Why the cloak and dagger? *


  There are very good reasons not to have it on your hip, concealment is an element of retention.  Our primary job is to save people, however, the weapon is there to save myself.  Weapons by their very nature convey authority.  We are there to help, not arrest.  There is no "cloak and dagger" to it, by your very verbage presumes a covert attack.  There is no initiated attack.  We are not there to enforce, but the unfortunate side is that not everyone likes people who help people.  Your decision to carry or not is up to you, mine is up to me.


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## Jon (Aug 15, 2005)

another point to this conversation... About a year ago, one of the BIGGG local Police Departments was talking about going ALS... they have 6+ officers on 24/7, and all are EMT's... all carry BLS bags and respond to medical emergencies.. if they beat the ambulance.. they bring their gear in and start treating...

The locla FD had gone ALS, and then gone broke... they were short money for a while becuase ALS cost more to start up, and it took longer than planned for reimbursment from insurance, o the PD talked about going ALS and "doing it right"



Big argument to this was is the officer armed??? what will he do if "officer down" cpmes through and he is working a resp. diff???? and is the officer armed or unarmed... because the plan was that he played cop, and then when called, played medic.


Jon


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## MMiz (Aug 15, 2005)

Jon,

Good point.  One of my EMT instructors worked as a LEO/Medic for as a county cop.  He would respond with ALS gear in his Tahoe, remove his gun and lock it in the trunk, then respond to the call.

Interesting idea you brought up.


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## Jon (Aug 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by MMiz_@Aug 15 2005, 09:21 AM
> * Jon,
> 
> Good point.  One of my EMT instructors worked as a LEO/Medic for as a county cop.  He would respond with ALS gear in his Tahoe, remove his gun and lock it in the trunk, then respond to the call.
> ...


 Yeah... that was a big hold-up on the plan... becuase the Twp. would pay the cop to work, but he couldn't work as a cop... he could be a backoup and assisting officer, probably... but when he was playing medic, he couldn't also play cop.

Also, the township was reluctant to send officers to medic school and pay them the cop pay to go to school for a year, fulltime.. apparently they have 1 medic on the force now...

One of the PD's big arguments goign FOR them is that they already send an officer to EVERY EMS call anyway... and they are already EMT's who will QRS if the local squad isn't there yet.

And then there was the "gun" question..... State says no member of an EMS org. shall carry a weapon, unless a LEO functioning as a LEO (my squad has 2 cops / EMT's who run with us.... without that clause, they would be breaking the law when "playing cop" and riding in with a prisoner).

When the issue came up, I thought about it... I wouldn't have a problem if the cop was armed and in my rig, and functiong as an ALS provider.. in fact, would have less of a problem..... Remember... spitting or hitting the medic/cop would be assault on an officer... causing every cop to come down on the crazy psycho OD.... :lol:   

Also... in relation to LEO / EMS...... an old partner of mine had a cousin... volunteer EMT and EMS officer in Rural Northern New York, alo a Local Officer / Deputy.... off duty, responds in personal vehicle, but ALWAYS carries (usually conceled)... My friend is visiting and goes along for the ride... they beat PD in (becase closest car is 20 min away   )... for some violent crime.... I think Assult with head injury or similar.... Punch line... He knocks, and has hiis pistol out (Violent crime, no PD on scene but him) is asked "is it the cops, or the ambulance???" "YES" is the reply..

Again... in some communities this is comon, or at least not unherd of...

Finally... look at Maryland State olice Aviation... they are MD's only Medevac units.... all are civilian Pilot and Officer / Medic.... officer carries in shoulder rig OVER flightsuit... and walks around ShockDrama with gun... it is common and accepted..

Jon

PS---- I didn't get to totally finish the earlier post.....


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## Luno (Aug 15, 2005)

Jon, very well put, to box EMS into one certain set, is dangerous.   There are very few absolutes in life, while there are good principles, very few things should be taken absolutely.  Only two that I can think of, death and taxes.  Anyway, very well put, I saw something about Maryland SP on tv last night, I don't know why I totally blanked that one.   :unsure:


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## rescuecpt (Aug 15, 2005)

I bumped into a friend at the ER the other day.  A county cop, who was on duty as a cop, but assisted a local ambulance as their ALS provider.  He came into the hospital in full police uniform, with his gun holstered on his hip, performing ALS interventions.  The PD allows this, and the Corps that ride within that jurisdiction all allow it as well.  It works very well not only for them, but most importantly for their patients.  (PS - it's a big county-wide department, one officer here or there on a rig isn't going to detract significantly from policing duties.)


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## asysin2leads (Aug 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Luno_@Aug 15 2005, 03:52 AM
> *
> 
> 
> ...


 Well, first off, your US Navy certification has no bearing in the civilian world. If Army medics have to work BLS when they come out even though they can perform surgical procedures in the field while in the military, what you can do there and what you can do here is apple and oranges. You can have certifications from EVERY law enforcement agency in the world, they only apply if you are working in their jurisdiction, not as a civilian working a 911 response ambulance. As someone who is as trained as you are, you should know that.
Secondly, maybe I'm just kind of naive and an idealist here, but I'd think that the use of deadly force IS in fact a last resort, simply because, I can't think of what else you can do AFTER you KILL them. I mean, what are you gonna do? The guy is shot and killed! Are you going to like go Kaiser Soze and go after their family and burn their shops and stuff? I think putting a bullet through someone's skull is pretty much the LAST RESORT. 
In response to your "proning" a subject, actually, the officer has his gun out and ready because he believes the situation has the potential to place him or the public in imminent danger and is ready to respond to that threat. Maybe your various law enforcement training was different, but from what I understand from various people I know in the New York City Police Department, an officers weapon is NOT supposed to be used as a means of coercion. To bring it to a close, I ask you this, yes or no, DOES YOUR EMPLOYER AND YOUR STATE CERTIFIYING AGENCY KNOW OF YOUR INTENTIONS AND ACTIONS WHILE ON DUTY WORKING EMS? Because if you say, yes, yes they do, they have evaluated me and believe I am qualified and capable to carry a firearm while on duty, fine, I'll shut up, arguements is over. Until then, you are acting in violation of the rules and regulations of Emergency Medical Services, and that makes you wrong, it is NOT a part of your job, it is your own personal arrogance in pistol form.


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## rescuecpt (Aug 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by asysin2leads_@Aug 15 2005, 03:50 PM
> * Until then, you are acting in violation of the rules and regulations of Emergency Medical Services *


 Ooh, I was never given a copy of this.  Can you show me these rules and regulations?

Thanks so much.


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## asysin2leads (Aug 15, 2005)

I found this when reading up about concealed firearms. In response to your statement "You haven't demonstrated why carrying an ankle holster on an ambulance is dangerous", I found this. This is from http://www.oregonconcealedcarry.com a concealed firearm website in your neck of the woods. This is a person (I believe a law enforcement officer) talking about why he doesn't like ankle holsters.

"I’ve never worn one, but gave it some thought for a while.
One time on a warrant arrest the arrestee resisted and ended up being grounded by one of the other officers. This officer ended up bent over the arrestee, with his feet planted by the arrestee’s head.
As I approached I noticed the officer’s left pants leg had ridden up, exposing his ankle holster and the S&W .38 snubbie within.
The ankle holster/gun was closer to the arrestee’s hands then it was to the officer’s. It made me very uncomfortable."

Now, I can easily imagine being in a similar situation in EMS. This is why, besides the obvious, that CARRYING A GUN ON AN AMBULANCE IS A BAD IDEA, wearing an ankle holster puts yourself, your patients, and your partner, in jeopardy.


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## rescuecpt (Aug 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by asysin2leads+Aug 15 2005, 03:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (asysin2leads @ Aug 15 2005, 03:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I’ve never worn one...[/b]_


_

Sounds like a good source of experience on the subject.

<!--QuoteBegin-asysin2leads_@Aug 15 2005, 03:59 PM
*One time.... The ankle holster/gun was closer to the arrestee’s hands then it was to the officer’s.*[/quote]

I wonder how many times an arrestee's hands are closer to an officer's hip holster than the officer's own hands.  I'd bet a lot.


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## asysin2leads (Aug 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by rescuecpt+Aug 15 2005, 03:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (rescuecpt @ Aug 15 2005, 03:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-asysin2leads_@Aug 15 2005, 03:50 PM
> * Until then, you are acting in violation of the rules and regulations of Emergency Medical Services *


Ooh, I was never given a copy of this.  Can you show me these rules and regulations?

Thanks so much. [/b][/quote]
 Usually they are in the form of the state's requirements for licensing of an ambulance service, your company or municipalities operating guide, and the Department of Transportation's requirements for EMS. Yeah, I know, there are actually rules out there, weird, huh?


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## Luno (Aug 15, 2005)

> *Well, first off, your US Navy certification has no bearing in the civilian world.*


Actually, it does, my certification is as a civilian, the tac team that operate with is a civilian team on contract with the US Navy, this is another case of the height of... again.



> *The ankle holster/gun was closer to the arrestee’s hands then it was to the officer’s. It made me very uncomfortable."*


 I would say that this is one police officer's opinion, there are police officers that think pot should be legal, does that make it so?  Absolutely not, this was an impression of what could possibly happen, I will grant you that ankle holsters have come a long way, and were at one time very unreliable.  



> *Secondly, maybe I'm just kind of naive and an idealist here, but I'd think that the use of deadly force IS in fact a last resort, simply because, I can't think of what else you can do AFTER you KILL them. I mean, what are you gonna do? The guy is shot and killed!*


 You said I don't intimidate you, which is a good thing, but I will be honest, you scare the hell out of me.  Shot does not equal dead.  A situation is fluid and treated as such.  If you have to shoot someone, god forbid, the first thing you do is initiate care.  I know I'm not the only one to realize this truth.  Shot is not dead, you don't shoot to kill, you shoot to stop a threat, when the threat is stopped, you resume what you were doing, initiating care.  



> *DOES YOUR EMPLOYER AND YOUR STATE CERTIFIYING AGENCY KNOW OF YOUR INTENTIONS AND ACTIONS WHILE ON DUTY WORKING EMS?*


 Employer knew?  Absolutely.  Certifying Agency knew?  I don't know, but our medical director which is our liason to the agency knew.  But I'm gonna step out on a ledge here, and say that I could bring God down here personally, have an 11th commandment written, and it still wouldn't shut you up.  Not that it's a bad thing, because everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if you continue to hold that opinion, I would recommend you find some solid facts to back up your opinion.  Not some quote from some legitimate "gun nut" website.  Every arguement that you have presented has had the wind knocked out of it, but I don't want to change your opinion, just present why your opinion is wrong for me.



> *In response to your "proning" a subject, actually, the officer has his gun out and ready because he believes the situation has the potential to place him or the public in imminent danger and is ready to respond to that threat. Maybe your various law enforcement training was different, but from what I understand from various people I know in the New York City Police Department, an officers weapon is NOT supposed to be used as a means of coercion.*


 I only have this response to this understanding, show me the team that does an entry without drawn weapons.  If this is the case, why when a violent subject is cuffed, are they still covered?  This isn't a last resort by any means.  By your logic, as soon as a weapon is produced, the trigger should be pulled, in LE tactics, that is unacceptable.  I will grant that self-defense is a different scenario, however.


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## asysin2leads (Aug 15, 2005)

Even if your tactical team, working under contract allows you to carry while you are in performance of your duties as a member of that team, that does not give you the right to carry while you are working normal, everyday, run of the mill EMS. To be truly able to carry a firearm, and use it if necessary, outside of the normal private citizen arena, you must have the consent and backing of your agency. Maybe I'm kinda messed up, and got the facts wrong. If you only work as a tactical member of this response team, and that is your role in EMS, then fine, carry all the guns you want, have a bazooka and a few claymore mines for all I care, WHEN YOU'RE WORKING WITH THEM. Just because I am trained to perform a chest decompression when working with my agency, doesn't mean I can go about and do it everywhere. I am granted that ability by the licensure and certifications that apply only when I am working in that context. The same goes for you and carrying a weapon. 
It's a different story when you work 911 EMS. Your previous post said that you work normal 911 EMS and carry when you do. I say, nuh uh, you can't do that, you are not acting as a security guard, or a law enforcement officer, or a member of the tactical team, you are acting as an EMS provider and as such the rules and liability covering you are different. 
Secondly, you said "The use of deadly force is not the last resort." Then I said "Yeah well, when you kill someone, its pretty much the last thing you can do." Then you said shooting someone isn't using deadly force if you only wound them. From what I know, you never, ever, point a gun and shoot someone unless you intend to KILL THEM. Guns are made to KILL. 
As for the 11th Commandment thing, actually, no, I said that if your field supervisor at your 911 response agency, the state certifying board, and your medical director all said "We don't mind him packing a gun while our asses are on the line if he shoots someone." Just tell me you sat down with all of those people, and they all gave you the ok, while you're working, on duty, doing normal, non-tactical 911 response EMS, and I'll be done. The fact you hem and haw around the issue of being allowed to carry one, plus the fact you need to carry it concealed, says to me you are doing it on the down low. 
Just because an entry team does a sweep with their weapons drawn doesn't mean they are using their weapons as a means of coercion. They are doing it in case they need to SHOOT AND KILL SOMEONE. I used that quote because you said "show me how ankle holsters can be dangerous", so I said "Okay, well here is how they can be dangerous, this guys seems to have some experience with them, he thinks they're dangerous, and he's allowed to carry one."


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## Luno (Aug 15, 2005)

> *I said that if your field supervisor at your 911 response agency, the state certifying board, and your medical director all said "We don't mind him packing a gun while our asses are on the line if he shoots someone." Just tell me you sat down with all of those people, and they all gave you the ok, while you're working, on duty, doing normal, non-tactical 911 response EMS, and I'll be done.*


  I thought that I answered this already, but incase there is some sort of confusion, the medical director, and the employer were both informed, and had no objections given the threat level at the time.  You are done.


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## Jon (Aug 15, 2005)

WOW!!!!


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## DT4EMS (Aug 15, 2005)

I am glad to see this thead has sparked a great debate. I started it with the hopes of continuing the recognition that the threat exists.

Now with the actual numbers from the NAEMT being released it is obvious that I was not inflating numbers.

I didn't realize the thread would turn into into a debate as to carrying a firearm or not. For several years I did, I don't anymore. I still know a bunch of folks that do (they are all police officer/EMT/Medic).

All of this still boils down to training. If you decide to carry a weapon, no matter what.........including your "seat belt cutting knife", you have to have some sort of liability conscious training that works in the field.

Just like the lady that is suing after she wrecked her car, we can be sued for anything. 

Remember that there are things described as "Environmental Weapons" as well as Improvised Weapons that exist all around us. I have heard way more medics say they would hit someone on the head with an O2 bottle way more than I have ever head them say they would shoot or stab someone.

Let me say this DEADLY FORCE IS DEADLY FORCE!
 It is the perception of those that SEE it or it's after math you have to worry about.

Hitting someone in the head with an O2 Bottle is deadly force, stabbing, shooting, clubbing in the head with a baton is all deadly force. But GUESS WHAT>.........Putting your knee on the throat of a DRUNK uncooperative PATIENT is deadly force.

Don't tell me it doesn't happen, because in a week period, there were two medics at a particular service that did it. It was a service that (at the time) didn't believe their people needed to be trained in self-defense.

The problem was in NOT TRAINING their people they reverted to "Caveman" like skills to handle a situation they were not trained for. Now, if the patient (not an attacker) would have been remotely smart, he would be much richer right now.

There will always be diffreent views on this issue because of locations and the "public" that a person gets to deal with. 

I was able to work in a very wealthy area for a while, and self-defense was never thought of. We an so much of the "Weak and Dizzy" C/P, SOB stuff, we never ran the shootings, stabbings etc.

Then I went to work in an area with a reputation for serious trauma action. Let me tell you 20 miles made all the difference in the world. I was made fun of because of the large reflective star of life on the back of my jumpsuit. They told me I would be the easiest to shoot. I immediately took it off.

When you would be working on someone and get told you were next........it changes your perspective on people. Being shot at while standing outside of the base...... Finding weapon after weapon on patients while moving down the road etc.

I simply believe that every person that gets into this field should be taught threat recognition skills, prevention techniques and real-world escape tactics. It is as important as BSI! There are some places that do give great courses, but it isn't a standard that everyone should get it, it shoud be!

When we educate people they won't confuse an uncooperative patient for someone that is attacking them. They will also learn how to back out and let law enforcement handle things instead of trying to restrain someone they can't.


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## asysin2leads (Aug 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Luno_@Aug 15 2005, 05:46 PM
> *
> 
> 
> ...


 The threat level? Okay, so now you are the one man crusade against terrorism, huh? Well, ok, maybe you can update us with a "sitrep" from the front?   :lol:  Boy you're really doing a lot to dispell the "weekend warrior wannabe" crack I made before. 

Well, if your medical director really wants to take on the civil liability of having the providers under his care walk around cleaning up the streets, all right, that's an interesting way to perform emergency medicine. Remind me never to bring anyone of my faily memebrs near him. I still think probably the state licensure of the ambulance you work on and your certifying agency might have something to say about it, but since you kinda just keep it hidden from them, we'll never know will we?

DT4EMS, I fully agree with you about people being well trained and able to defend themselves in any situation, trained in methods that would leave them free of legal repercussions. What I am NOT in favor of is yahoos running around talking tough about "carrying on duty". This is the post that REALLY let me know who I was talking too. 

BEGIN QUOTE
>Let me also state that I don't advocate carrying a weapon on a rig, but if you do, >there are many things that need to be taken into consideration.

>1. Can I do this safely?
A. Safely carrying a concealed weapon? Is that an oxymoron or what?

>2. Will this negatively affect my ability to do my job?
A. Studies have shown that participating in a shootout tends to negatively effect the ability to perform prehospital care.

>3. If you doing it without "approval" (which we were not) what will happen if you are found out?
A. And while you're at it, what else are you willing to do without "approval"? Rob a patient? Selling drugs out of the back of the ambulance? Because, heck, once you decide to do a couple of things with out "approval", I say go the whole route.
>4. Can you take another human's life?
A. Can you justify working in a profession who's sole purpose is to preserve human life while walking around with the means and motive to take anothers?

>These are all questions that you need to answer before you decide whether or >not you are going to carry.
Yeah, and you might want to you know, get a permit, check into the local laws and liabilities, check with your employer, that petty stuff that comes second to the warrior bushido bravado that you must wrestle with WHEN YOU DECIDE TO CARRY
DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNN

>After you answer all of those, and if you still decide to carry, you have to answer >the following.

Inability to answer the following will result in having your gun taken away and not given back until you really want to take it seriously. We mean it this time!

>1. Can I do this safely?
A. Sure, the safety is on. What could go wrong?
>2. Is this going to be effective, and in what circumstances will this be effective, if >any?
A. Shooting people effectively kills them. Pretty sure of that.
>3. If I get into a physical altercation, will it "fall out?" If so, why? If not, why?
A. Please make sure you safely shoot at people. Dangerously shooting at people is dangerous. 
>4. Do I take enough risk that this will make a difference?
A. Every time you take a seat in an ambulance you are taking a certain amount of risk. Despit what Luno, the NRA, or Charlton Heston might tell you, strapping a handcannon to your leg does in fact greatly increase that risk.

>Now skipping ahead, past all the threat assessment, weapon and calibre size BS, >everyday, you put a weapon on, you need to ask yourself.

>8. Why am I doing this?
A. I'm guessing it has to do with an inability to date during high school. 


Anyway, my question is this. If you really are the one man kung fu SWAT team trained by the US Navy and whatever else, how come you waste your time playing in EMS? Huh? You could be doing so much more! Go become a cop! You can even play with shotguns and automatic weapons then! That sounds more up your alley! Or how about joining the Marines? Leave this petty saving grandma stuff to others. Go joined the armed forces or law enforcement, you'll get in less trouble. And by the way, as for the 'coercion' debate, you realize it is in fact a crime to use a firearm to coerce others, right?


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## rescuecpt (Aug 15, 2005)

I searched all of the NYS law governing ambulance and ambulance service certification in NY (ie, the laws the State and County require my ambulance to follow, including Part 800 and Article 30 of DOH laws) using the following three words: gun, weapon, and firearm with no hits on any of those words... in other words, they're not mentioned at all.  I guess the State f'd up on that one, huh.


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## asysin2leads (Aug 16, 2005)

Yeah, well, then it must be ok to do. Go... get a gun. Tote it with you. Just make me a video tape when the state comes to do a part 800 on you and find you carrying a piece. I could use a laugh.


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## ffemt8978 (Aug 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by asysin2leads_@Aug 15 2005, 11:56 PM
> * Yeah, well, then it must be ok to do. Go... get a gun. Tote it with you. Just make me a video tape when the state comes to do a part 800 on you and find you carrying a piece. I could use a laugh. *


Legally it is provided that you comply with your state's laws about carrying weapons.

Remember, government agencies only have the powers that are specifically granted to them by law.  Just because it may be a bad idea does not mean that they can interfere or create a rule that violates the law.  If your ems certification agency has a rule against carrying firearms, there has to be some legal basis for them to make that rule.  I'm not saying that there needs to be a specific law banning firearms on ambulances for them to make that rule, but they are not allowed to make arbitrary rules that violate your civil rights or legal protections.

A good example of this is the recent story of the PA FF that was suspended for not shaving his beard.  The department had a rule against facial hair (founded in what they thought was a very good reason), but the courts ruled it violated his civil rights therefore, the rule is no longer valid.


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## Jon (Aug 16, 2005)

> *A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. *



Ok, Folks. That is the second Amendment. 



> *In spite of extensive recent discussion and much legislative action with respect to regulation of the purchase, possession, and transportation of firearms, as well as proposals to substantially curtail ownership of firearms, there is no definitive resolution by the courts of just what right the Second Amendment protects. The opposing theories, perhaps oversimplified, are an ''individual rights'' thesis whereby individuals are protected in ownership, possession, and transportation, and a ''states' rights'' thesis whereby it is said the purpose of the clause is to protect the States in their authority to maintain formal, organized militia units.1 Whatever the Amendment may mean, it is a bar only to federal action, not extending to state2 or private3 restraints. The Supreme Court has given effect to the dependent clause of the Amendment in the only case in which it has tested a congressional enactment against the constitutional prohibition, seeming to affirm individual protection but only in the context of the maintenance of a militia or other such public force. *



Source: FindLaw.com - Clicky

Ok..... the jury is still out, 200 years later, on what we can and can't do under this.

I think that one of these days, someoen will get the ACLU to start contending that the, um, urban youth who deal in illigal controlled substances, in, groups, are in fact a militia, and have the right to carry AK's and Tec-9's.....

Somehow political correctness can go WAYYYY TOO FAR...

Jon


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## rescuecpt (Aug 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by asysin2leads_@Aug 16 2005, 01:56 AM
> * Yeah, well, then it must be ok to do. Go... get a gun. Tote it with you. Just make me a video tape when the state comes to do a part 800 on you and find you carrying a piece. I could use a laugh. *


    Nah.  I have the permit, but I don't carry.  Don't want to.   

The last Part 800 I went through the state inspector didn't pat me down.  I was quite disappointed.  LOL.


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## ffemt8978 (Aug 16, 2005)

Jon,

Here is an interesting read from the US Attorney General's office about the Second Amendment.

WHETHER THE SECOND AMENDMENT SECURES AN INDIVIDUAL RIGHT


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## asysin2leads (Aug 16, 2005)

Medicine in any form, has always been about ethics, not laws. Maybe the state doesn't have any specific law against carrying a firearm on an ambulance, but then again, there's no specific law against me saying improper things to a patient, because that's protected under the 1st admendment. It doesn't mean you should do it. The fact that Luno sees firearms as a means of coercion and deterrence, the two things that they tell you in the police academy you should not use them for, coupled with his use of action movie slogans to justify them and his assertion that he is allowed to carry in EMS "due to the elevated threat level"  reinforces my point, that usually the people who want to carry the guns the most should be the last people you give them too.
I remember when they passed the "Federal Carrying Act for Law Enforcement", and I got an image in my mind from it. It was about some overzealous, yokel sheriff from a jerkwater town deciding that if he was gonna be visiting the big city, he needs to be armed. He goes into Penn Station, and witnesses a heated argument. Not being use to people fighting, he assumes this is pretty bad, and whips out his piece to "control the situation". Someone sees him and screams "Terrorist!" and all of the Amtrak police, the National Guardsmen with the M-16's, and maybe even an MTA or NYPD cop for good measure all simulatenously draw... Pandemonium ensues, and in the middle of a crowd of a couple thousand, shots ring out, and all because someone thought they needed the "protection."


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## ffemt8978 (Aug 16, 2005)

You seem to be the one that views a firearm as a means of coercion and deterrence, not Luno.  You took a statement he made to prove a point and characterized it using adjectives like "coercion", "gun nut" "overzealous" in an attempt to confuse the facts of this discussion with emotionally charged words in an effort to prove your viewpoint is correct.

His reference to the "threat level" does not necessarily apply to the National Threat Level.  He could have been talking about the percieved threat level to the providers of his agency.  You're the one that assumes the moment he mentions threat level that he's the more concerned with killing terroists that providing medical care.

Let me ask you this question in all seriousness, since you're of the belief that the streets will flow with blood and there will be a shoot-out like the North Hollywood Bank Robbery if EMS providers carry weapons.

How many people that have been licensed to carry a firearm have committed a crime with that firearm?  Do the research, you'll be suprised.

On the issue of ethics, let me ask you this question.  If it is ethically wrong for EMS providers to carry a firearm, then explain to me why it is ethically acceptable for military medics to be armed, or why it is ethically acceptable for tactical EMS providers to be armed.


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## asysin2leads (Aug 16, 2005)

As I said before, a tactical medic and an army medic are in situations where they are expected to be armed. They are there standing, in uniform, that says "I AM ARMED". They are classified differently than normal emergency service providers, which is why the rules of warfare do not allow you to shoot an ambulance. Granted, those rules go out the window, but they are still in place, and ethically, if we are classified as people who do not have weapons on us, we should abide by that. If you really want to say "The 2nd admendment allows me to be armed. Therefore it is always okay to be armed," it's some pretty poor and dangerous reasoning.
In terms of "overzealous", I was refering to my hypothetical armed yokel cop, not Luno. No offense to cops, but people like that do exist. Lastly, if you go back to his posts, I argued back and forth many times with him that firearms, in the hands of professionals, are not supposed to serve the role of coercion or deterence, which was part of his justification for carrying a concealed firearm. He was arguing that they can and do. 
As for the "blood running in the streets", now you're putting words in my mouth. My position is that EMS providers are not supposed to serve the role of applying deadly force, which is what, professionally, a gun is for, therefore, a non-tactical, 911 response EMS worker, volunteer or paid, has no business endangering the lives of himself, his partner, or his patient by carrying a firearm.  At least no one has taken the position that "If we all had guns, then there would be LESS violence, because everyone wouldn't want to mess with anyone." Trust me, people have made this arguement to me before. 
As for people who are licensed commiting crimes, I really don't care, nor is it relevant. I don't enforce the law so people commiting crimes really isn't my concern. What IS my concern is public safety, and seeing as there were 28,663 people dead from firearms in 2000, 1,006 of which were accidental/unintentional deaths, and 11,071 intentional/homicides (the rest were suicides), I will stand by my position that someone who carries a firearm for the wrong reason and the wrong state of mind poses a grievous threat to public safety. 
Leave shooting people to the professionals. Spend the time you do on the range with an anatomy and physiology book, or become a cop and use your knowledge of firearms to your advantage.  You'll do so much better.


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## rescuecpt (Aug 16, 2005)

Asys - do you work for FDNY EMS?  Or another NYC agency?  You talk about NY a lot, just wondering.


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## asysin2leads (Aug 16, 2005)

Yeppers, FDNY EMS Battalion 08


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## rescuejew (Aug 17, 2005)

Well, reading the banter back and forth certainly is interesting to say the least.  Small example that I think may be of some relevance:

Got involved in a foot pursuit at the ER of a suspect that had somehow managed to sneak past the officers that were there to babysit him.  My partner and I were in  the lead with armed hospital security, and city cops in the back.  Another medic went to get the ambulance because everyone knew this would end badly.  It did.  ER security "super-cop" decided it would be a good idea to plant his feet, and shoot the running suspect in the leg to "incapacitate" him.  Our suspect got shot in the head, not to mention the fact that supercop had to shoot past my partner and myself to bring this guy down.  With required trips to the range, training in bringing down a dangerous felon, how could supercop have done something so stupid???  

I believe inthe general need for guns, though in my personal opinion the Constitution does not defend it.  My man is in the Army, and soon to be in Iraq, I want him armed.  I do not, however believe in the production of Tek-9s, AKs and various other assault rifles and hollow-point rounds that are designed in their very nature, to penetrate our vests by gangbangers who buy them illegally ont he street.  My will to survive my shift and go home to the man that I love greatly contradicts my desire to rid idiots, zealots, and those that are not sworn of firearms.  I dont think any of us have the right to carry, PERIOD.  The 2nd amendment, if translated literally applies to "formed militias"  whom average Joe is not.  When I was talking to Luno earlier I stated that it is good that he stand up for his opinion, and I shouldve said the same to Asys.  

The very nature of our profession is to protect life, to set an example, to project an image of self-respect, and confidence.  How I ask does one inspire confidence with a gun strapped to their ankle?  Arent we supposed to be better than the people we treat?  And are we if we use the excuse that we are finely trained and finely tuned?  Super cop may have been finely trained, but I dont imagine he will be carrying a gun for some time.  

I stand firm in the belief that I WILL go home at the end of my tour, and if I get into a fight with a pt, my only hope is that I will never have to pull that knife, that I can hold my own until help arrives.  BUT, if it doesnt and I have to use a weapon against a pt, I am now reacting as a human being fighting for survival and be damned my agencies policies on how I am supposed to fairly fight the good fight and get killed in process.  I will do what I have to do because my life was in danger.  

I see both sides, understand both arguments and agree with points from both persons.  There will never be a solution to your arguments, gentlemen, and attempting to persuade the other is a futile attempt.


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## ffemt8978 (Aug 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by rescuejew_@Aug 16 2005, 10:02 PM
> * I dont think any of us have the right to carry, PERIOD.  The 2nd amendment, if translated literally applies to "formed militias"  whom average Joe is not. *


 Might I recommend that you read this?

Is the Second Amendment an Individual Right?

You are absolutely correct that the security officer was in no way justified in shooting a fleeing suspect, at least in my opinion.


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## rescuejew (Aug 17, 2005)

I read it...and this is why an opinion is what it is.  I certainly have no basis to contradict the DOJ or the Supreme Court for that matter.  But I do believe that we are trying to make a document with antiquated definitions applicable to modern society.  Times have changed, to be cliche'.  The document you asked me to read, which I did with much enthusiasm, makes a reference to "a formed militia not being synonymous to todays Ntl. Guard"  

Back in the day, it is defined that a militia was an organized group of "all able-bodied men".  Would it not be the same as the national guard being that they are a group of organized, able-bodied men?  I am simply saying that trying to mold the language of our forefathers to modern times may not be the truth we seek.  It is apparent that this language is easily twisted to fit both sides of this argument.  I am in no way advocating changing this amendment in the Constitution, but I am simply saying that a different approach must be taken. 

I just cant, in my true opinion and in good conscience, advocate battling a gun problem with more guns.  I have been around guns, and am  used to them, my sister is a city cop, my man is in the Army and a lot of my network of friends work in Law Enforcement. I am on the fence about how I would feel if someone I knew and trusted implicitely brought a gun onto my bus.  I dont know when I will work that out.  But THE SYSTEM needs to change.  What purpose do hollow-point bullets serve?  (they kill cops, and us)  Why would one need a Tek-9 in an urban area?  (to kill rival gangmembers)  Just 2 examples.  Believe it or not, I'm a republican and I think people are concerned with the rights of the bloods and crypts more so than the safety of our officers, firemen and medics.  We are not holding these people accountable and questioning their motives for attaining and using such  desctructive weapons.  Until we do this, this battle will wage, without end.


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## Cap'nPanic (Aug 17, 2005)

IMHO, Knives are just as dangerous as guns if left in the wrong hands. 2nd, knives on-scene are just bad juju all the way around.

There are better ways of defending yourself against a combative pt. One is use the velcro straps, we were taught that in our EMTB class, second, have a plan, if the pt is combative to begin with, get assistance from another unit or PD to have the assist you in getting this pt to the ER.

Also give the pt a choice, either he can calm down and ride with you or he can remain in his/her current state and get a ride with PD, their choice. One big thing here is SCENE SAFETY. If the scene requires you go in with a weapon for "defense" its not worth going to that scene w/o PD dispatched.

If all else fails get some defensive training to help protect yourself as well as your partner. People like DT4EMS are seeing the effects of this and are thinking of ways to help you as a provider deter a pt from causing bodily harm to you, your partner, or themselves.

With weapons you are the OFFENSIVE, w/o weapons and you have the proper training, you can become DEFENSIVE. Also to keep your butt out of the court room, never move towards the pt, let the sorry pt come to you then you have witnesses say that the pt attacked you.

My humble thoughts on the subject.

BTW, I own several guns of several calibers, this doesnt make it right for me to tote one around as if my life depended on it. Same way with the knives in my kitchen.

Cap'n Panic

The one the only the scrawny lil one to pick on.  :unsure:


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## asysin2leads (Aug 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Cap'nPanic_@Aug 17 2005, 01:14 AM
> * IMHO, Knives are just as dangerous as guns if left in the wrong hands. 2nd, knives on-scene are just bad juju all the way around.
> *


 You can't blow the back off someone's skull from 50ft away with a knife. You can't cut a seatbelt to save someone's life with a gun. Guns and knives are apples and oranges.


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## ffemt8978 (Aug 17, 2005)

On a side note,

I would like to thank everyone for keeping this discussion clean, lively, thought provoking and within the forum guidelines at all times.

It is obvious that we have people on both sides of this issue that hold firm to their beliefs, but have shown that they are capable of having a lively discussion without resorting to insults and personal attacks.

To everyone, thank you from the moderating team.


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## rescuejew (Aug 17, 2005)

you're welcome ffemt  

And before I go to bed let me first respond to Cap'n'Panic:

I am not advocating the use of the knife I carry on my person.  A knife which I use for much more purposeful things (like a screwdriver, and mostly cutting the paper sheath of an empty o2 bottle)

What I am saying, and I apologize if I did not make myself clear, it is after all 0230, is that if MY LIFE WERE IN DANGER, I would fight without thinking twice about the "rules of engagement".  I am frequently put in situations where I call for PD, where I get into fights, when dispatch narrative sounds shady and I stage and wait for PD.  I dont approach a scene with a disregard for mine or my partners safety.  We are very careful and though I have been assaulted several times, I am proud to say that I have restrained, but never hurt, anyone.  

There may come they day when someone backs me into a corner who is much bigger than myself and tries to kill me.  Trust me, my sister was pistol-whipped last year.  She is a great cop, but sh*t sometimes happens and we have to think about what we will do in the event that it does.  If it came down to me or some hood, I choose me, plain and simple.  It may never happen in my career that I have to make that decision, but since we are speaking with regard to supposition...

I simply am not willing to lay down my life to someone because the SOP says I have to fight fair.  I am not above hair-pulling!     Seriously though, there is a vast difference between pacifism and antagonism.


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## asysin2leads (Aug 17, 2005)

Rescuejew pretty much backs up my point. I have nothing wrong with defending myself, my partner, or my patient. My point was that a gun is not an appropriate means of self-defense in EMS. I will concede the point that there may be no specific law against an EMS provider, even a non-tactical one, carrying a weapon. However, working in EMS, you do not enjoy the same priveleges a private citizen does. A police officer, a military medic, even a tactical medic, are given the authority to use deadly force if necessary by the appropriate agency. Even if you have a permit, even if you have a license to carry, even if you are an off duty police officer, if, while working in the capacity as an Emergency Medical Services provider, you shoot and kill someone, you CAN be held criminally a civily liable for wrongful death, even if the guy had a knife and was about to stab you. Your medical director and supervisor do not have that authority to allow you to use deadly force in an official capacity. You can believe me now, or believe me later when your house gets taken away and your service shuts its doors.


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## ffemt8978 (Aug 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by asysin2leads_@Aug 17 2005, 02:43 PM
> * Rescuejew pretty much backs up my point. I have nothing wrong with defending myself, my partner, or my patient. My point was that a gun is not an appropriate means of self-defense in EMS. I will concede the point that there may be no specific law against an EMS provider, even a non-tactical one, carrying a weapon. However, working in EMS, you do not enjoy the same priveleges a private citizen does. A police officer, a military medic, even a tactical medic, are given the authority to use deadly force if necessary by the appropriate agency. Even if you have a permit, even if you have a license to carry, even if you are an off duty police officer, if, while working in the capacity as an Emergency Medical Services provider, you shoot and kill someone, you CAN be held criminally a civily liable for wrongful death, even if the guy had a knife and was about to stab you. Your medical director and supervisor do not have that authority to allow you to use deadly force in an official capacity. You can believe me now, or believe me later when your house gets taken away and your service shuts its doors. *


 I'm sure that's true in the state you live in, but where I'm at the right to self defense does not disappear when I put on my EMS uniform.  Washington law pretty clearly spells out when deadly force is justified, and even goes so far as to state that if you're arrested for defending yourself and a jury rules it was self-defense, the state must reimburse you for ALL costs associated with the incident.


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## DT4EMS (Aug 17, 2005)

Asys you make a valid point that a medical director or service admin cannot advise you TO USE deadly force. They also can not remove your right in self-defense.

I also want to thank everyone for keeping this debate alive and clean as well.

I can appreciate Asys's position on not wanting a firearm on the ambulance, but I will not say that no person, no time should ever be allowed to be armed. It should come as no surprise that I believe a private citizen should be allowed to carry a firearm, but that comes with a heavy responsibility as well.

Any person that carries a firearm MUST realize that in every situation there is at least one firearm present..........their's and it can be used against them. I have not taught a handgun retention course where I have not disarmed veteran officers. I am not any better than them, I just know how. Dirtbags practice how to as well. 

I am also a certified instructor in the "Tactial Duty Knife" we teach fellow officers how to properly cut seatbelts and such, but also how to use the knife in a "Last Ditch Defense" against a person who is about to disarm them and they are on the losing end of the fight. Deadly force is deadly force. Not a military course of knife use, strictly defensive and a last resort. WHY? Because officers have had to resort to a pocket knife for defense and had no training. 

I have found a lot of people after attending a firearm safety course chose not to carry concealed. They felt the responsibility too great. So again I say, train and in training people can make better decisions for themselves.


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## ffemt8978 (Aug 17, 2005)

Well said!


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## Cap'nPanic (Aug 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by asysin2leads+Aug 17 2005, 01:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (asysin2leads @ Aug 17 2005, 01:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cap'nPanic_@Aug 17 2005, 01:14 AM
> * IMHO, Knives are just as dangerous as guns if left in the wrong hands. 2nd, knives on-scene are just bad juju all the way around.
> *


You can't blow the back off someone's skull from 50ft away with a knife. You can't cut a seatbelt to save someone's life with a gun. Guns and knives are apples and oranges. [/b][/quote]
 You can throw a knife into someones head and kill them or leave them brain damaged. Remember there are people who throw knives at targets as a hobby, I wouldnt doubt it if my head would be an easy target for them.

Also if you have a knife on you, dont count on that knife to save your life. Your pt could overpower you can turn the knife back on you and leave you dead.

I understand that you would fight to keep your life but it also wouldnt look too good in the papers when a headline reads: "Paramedic stabs and kills patient". Thats when your company will likely shut its doors and you will lose your house.

I honestly think if you checked into some defensive classes Im sure with training and in that training you would make a better decision. Remember the most basic thing we were taught: SCENE SAFETY.  If you get an eerie feeling in the middle of your assesment, its time to figure out a way to leave the scene w/o abandoning your pt. Follow your gut and you'll avoid more situations than you'll get into.

-Cap'nPanic

The one the only the loser


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## asysin2leads (Aug 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ffemt8978+Aug 17 2005, 04:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (ffemt8978 @ Aug 17 2005, 04:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-asysin2leads_@Aug 17 2005, 02:43 PM
> * Rescuejew pretty much backs up my point. I have nothing wrong with defending myself, my partner, or my patient. My point was that a gun is not an appropriate means of self-defense in EMS. I will concede the point that there may be no specific law against an EMS provider, even a non-tactical one, carrying a weapon. However, working in EMS, you do not enjoy the same priveleges a private citizen does. A police officer, a military medic, even a tactical medic, are given the authority to use deadly force if necessary by the appropriate agency. Even if you have a permit, even if you have a license to carry, even if you are an off duty police officer, if, while working in the capacity as an Emergency Medical Services provider, you shoot and kill someone, you CAN be held criminally a civily liable for wrongful death, even if the guy had a knife and was about to stab you. Your medical director and supervisor do not have that authority to allow you to use deadly force in an official capacity. You can believe me now, or believe me later when your house gets taken away and your service shuts its doors. *


I'm sure that's true in the state you live in, but where I'm at the right to self defense does not disappear when I put on my EMS uniform.  Washington law pretty clearly spells out when deadly force is justified, and even goes so far as to state that if you're arrested for defending yourself and a jury rules it was self-defense, the state must reimburse you for ALL costs associated with the incident. [/b][/quote]
 And again you miss my point that when you put on an EMS uniform, and you are working under a medical director's license and the authority of your local service, THE RULES ARE DIFFERENT when it comes to what you can and can't do. Take for instance, crashing your car. Crash your car, it's a civil matter and falls on the actions of the driver alone. Crash an ambulance, and it falls on not only you, but your supervisors, the municipality, and the medical director. The same goes for shooting someone (justified or not), when you are on duty. I really have a hard time understanding why this concept, to people who act under the same guidelines I do, and supposedly have been trained in law enforcement, is so difficult to grasp.


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## rescuejew (Aug 17, 2005)

Cap'n'Panic:  I have to respond to this because I feel chastised.  I am trying to keep my responses clean but telling me that I can make a "better decision"  is not the appropriate comment, I'm afraid.  I have made the appropriate decision, FOR ME.  If you dont like it, then make a different one for yourself.  I have tried to say this twice before and I will reiterate it one more time before I stop responding alltogether.  I am VERY aware of scene safety.  We practice it EVERY DAY, on every call.  I know how to protect myself, keeping myself close to an exit, without anyone blocking me, knowing where my partner is at all times, etc.  You seem to be implying that since I carry a knife in my pocket, I am ignorant to scene safety and need remediation in self defense tactics.  Heres a proposition: Travel to Durham, you can sleep on the couch, and I'll get the paperwork squared away so you can do a ridealong and then you can tell me how inappropriate my decisions are regarding how I treat a scene.  

This forum is supposed to be about sharing opinions, not attacking everyone elses.  Just because I dont agree with average Joe being able to carry, or carrying concealed on a bus, or that I disagree with you about using my knife, does not mean I have the right to tell anyone here that their opinion is wrong.  It differs from mine, thats all.  Sure, its easy to get heated when differing opinions come out, but it takes a real maturity to know when not to attack the feelings of others.


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## asysin2leads (Aug 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Cap'nPanic+Aug 17 2005, 07:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (Cap'nPanic @ Aug 17 2005, 07:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can throw a knife into someones head and kill them or leave them brain damaged. Remember there are people who throw knives at targets as a hobby, I wouldnt doubt it if my head would be an easy target for them.

Also if you have a knife on you, dont count on that knife to save your life. Your pt could overpower you can turn the knife back on you and leave you dead.

I understand that you would fight to keep your life but it also wouldnt look too good in the papers when a headline reads: "Paramedic stabs and kills patient". Thats when your company will likely shut its doors and you will lose your house.

I honestly think if you checked into some defensive classes Im sure with training and in that training you would make a better decision. Remember the most basic thing we were taught: SCENE SAFETY.  If you get an eerie feeling in the middle of your assesment, its time to figure out a way to leave the scene w/o abandoning your pt. Follow your gut and you'll avoid more situations than you'll get into.

-Cap'nPanic

The one the only the loser   [/b][/quote]
You can throw a knife, ergo, it is just as dangerous as a gun. That's what you're getting at? This, in your mind, really makes sense to you. I mean, you're saying to me, that a knife, thrown, has the same stopping power as a .357 Magnum? My my my my my...

And also, you say that an attacker who gets cut with your knife will have a better chance against you then say his family when you PULL OUT YOUR CONCEALED GUN THAT YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE AND SHOOT HIM??? I mean, you typed that, read it, and it makes sense to you. Right?

Just so you know, it is actually REALLY HARD to KILL someone with a knife. You either have to get them in the exact right place, or keep stabbing and stabbing and stabbing. You guys REALLY have to cut down on the action movie nights, all right?

I actually decided to do some research about EMS professionals killed in the line of duty, and you'd think the way the guys from Washington state were talking, its some kind of war zone. One would expect and extensive roll of names of EMS workers killed by armed people, their lives saved if ONLY THEY HAD A GUN TO DEFEND THEMSELVES, right? Well, no. According to the National EMS Memorial website, in Washington state, since this list was started, there have been a grand total of 4 EMS workers killed in the line of duty in Washington. One was in a motor vehicle accident while on duty, the other three in a MEDEVAC helicopter crash in 1989. Kinda hard to justify packing heat with those statistics, isn't it? In fact, I went back and did some random checking of causes of death in the memorial (depressing work, trust me), and while I found an abundance of Motor Vehicle Accidents, and a whole bunch of heart attacks, I wasn't finding many (actually I didn't find any) EMS providers who were shot and killed. Now, we can argue 2nd admendment rights all night long, and I can try and convince you that as a professional you are under different regulations, but jsut ask yourself this, do you think, maybe, just maybe, that the reason there AREN'T a whole bunch of names of people shot is because WE DON'T CARRY GUNS? Looking at the statistics for gun deaths annually, I think that's a GREAT possibility.


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## Cap'nPanic (Aug 17, 2005)

Asys,
Im not argiung 2nd amendment rights, nor am I a card carrying memeber of the NRA, even though I do hunt as a hobby. I personally think the NRA is far too radical, and quite honestly I think our 2nd amendment rights will stay just as they are.

Its not a matter of stopping power, its a matter of the danger. You are more likely to get injured on the job than killed.

Now, yes it is hard to kill someone with a knife, but if your pt is bent on hell to do it then, yes it can be done. The only reason I see for carrying a knife on the unit is for extrication purposes to cut a seatbelt to save ones life. And we can argue this all night, but I will hold to my belief that guns and knives just dont belong in the EMS field as a means of defense.

Rescue,
I am sorry if I made you feel chastised, I really am, maybe I chose bad wording, but I think I was also misunderstood, Im not great with words but let me attempt to clarify anyhow.

What I meant was for you to make the right decision for YOU while you got the training. Some people feel its too great of a responsibility, while others decide to take the responsibility with the privilege of carrying a concealed firearm/weapon. It just helps to also make an informed decision, that is why we must go through such training before allowed to carry a concealed weapon.

When I referred to scene safety I did not mean it that you should take remediation for it, I am just saying that scene safety is the basis of this discussion.

I dont expect everyone to agree with me, nor do I expect myself to agree with everyone else, that is what makes this world go round and round. 

Once again I truly am sorry if I made anyone feel like they were being attacked. If you have any further comments or questions please PM me. Im a nice person, but I admittedly chose bad wording.

Cap'nPanic

The one, the only, the bad word chooser........


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## ffemt8978 (Aug 18, 2005)

Asys, you said you couldn't find any references to medics being shot in the line of duty?  Try these: (Linked to DT4EMS's website, which is where I found them.  Thanks to DT for having them in one handy spot.)(Also, I realize that these are not from WA state, but wanted to point out that it does happen.)

Medic Shot
Medics Shot to Death
Medic Shot in Face
Pulled a Loaded Gun on Medics

These are only the articles that had something to do with firearms in their titles.  It does not include the stabbings, kidnapping, being struck with a deadly weapon, etc...

Asys, I also understand that the rules are different when I put on my EMS uniform.  Why is it that you can't understand that my RIGHTS as an individual do not disappear the moment I put on that uniform?

Also, I never said it was a war zone here.  Matter of fact, I've tried to limit myself to correcting your incorrect statements about it being ILLEGAL to carry a firearm on an ambulance.  I never said if I thought it was a good idea or not.  

I do agree with CapnPanic that you are much more likely to be seriously injured in this job as the victim of an assault than you are to be killed.  Either way, the fact that EMS should not have to be armed and that the Star of Life is a great universal symbol that says we're the good guys only trying to help our fellow man will be of little comfort to your family if you are seriously injured or even killed in the line of duty because you thought your right to self defense went out the window when you put your uniform on.

Just to clarify this, I am not advocating that EMS personnel be armed, but I'm not saying that weapons should be banned from ambulances either.


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## rescuejew (Aug 18, 2005)

Cap'n'Panic:  Forgiven...sorry if I took it the wrong way, but thanks for apologizing just the same.  

Just to add some levity about assaults vs line death:  A medic here had a knife pulled on him by some drunk that called EMS.  (THE a**hole frequent flier)  This "gentleman" happens to use a w/c although he can walk a little.  To diffuse the situation in which the medic found himself, obviously soon to be a stabbing victim, he called the city cop over, who promptly overturned said a**hole in his w/c.

Not deadly force, and no one got hurt...sometimes ingenuity can save the day.


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## asysin2leads (Aug 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ffemt8978_@Aug 17 2005, 11:35 PM
> * Asys, I also understand that the rules are different when I put on my EMS uniform. Why is it that you can't understand that my RIGHTS as an individual do not disappear the moment I put on that uniform?
> 
> *


To an extent, actually, yes, when you are working in an official capacity, many of the rights you enjoy as a citizen, DO in fact go out the window. My operating guide starts out with about a page and half of behavior you're not allowed to engage in on duty, things that your normal everyday citizen can enjoy. The reason for this is because in exchange, you are given certain priveleges that the ordinary citizen does not enjoy. For instance, an EMS provider, if need be, can perform acts which would be considered breaking and entering or destruction of property outside the realm of the job. I am not saying anyone does not have the right to defend themselves, in fact, the law allows for  "reasonable measures to extricate oneself from the situation." We as private citizens can argue all night long whether a gun is a means of self defense or not, but as professionals, the ones who will be in front of a court of law, I am saying that they will not see it as a means of self defense but as a means of applying deadly force, which you are not allowed to do. 
The 2nd admendment, right or wrong, I believe, says that a private citizen does have a right to bear arms. The law does give you provisions to defend yourself against attack. But don't think this for a second means it gives you the absolute right to carry a concealed firearm while working in the capacity of an EMS provider. Luno never really did explain why, if it was perfectly okay to carry a firearm on duty, it had to be concealed. The only professionals who carry concealed weapons are police officers undercover, and I really don't think we've found a need for undercover EMS quite yet. As I said before, ankle holsters are for undercover police officers, mobsters, and wannabe weekend warriors waiting to shoot someone. If you guys REALLY have the need to have a gun, and you get the authorization to posess and use it while on duty, then have it in clear view, in an easier access position, on your hip. The town I worked in once used to have police officers who were also the BLS first responders. They had an EMT patch on one arm, a police patch on the other, and their service piece on their hip.


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## ffemt8978 (Aug 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by asysin2leads_@Aug 17 2005, 10:21 PM
> * Luno never really did explain why, if it was perfectly okay to carry a firearm on duty, it had to be concealed.
> <snip>
> If you guys REALLY have the need to have a gun, and you get the authorization to posess and use it while on duty, then have it in clear view, in an easier access position, on your hip. *


 Actually, he did.  He stated that it was concealed for easier retention.  Who's going to grab for your gun if they don't know you have one?



> *the ones who will be in front of a court of law, I am saying that they will not see it as a means of self defense but as a means of applying deadly force, which you are not allowed to do. *



Yes, we are allowed to use deadly force if it is justified for us to do so (i.e. defense of ourselves or another from a deadly force attack).  Also, keep in mind, if you are faced with a deadly force attack, you have to be alive to go to court.  Would you rather be judged by 12 or carried by 6?


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## asysin2leads (Aug 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ffemt8978+Aug 18 2005, 12:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (ffemt8978 @ Aug 18 2005, 12:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-asysin2leads_@Aug 17 2005, 10:21 PM
> * Luno never really did explain why, if it was perfectly okay to carry a firearm on duty, it had to be concealed.
> <snip>
> If you guys REALLY have the need to have a gun, and you get the authorization to posess and use it while on duty, then have it in clear view, in an easier access position, on your hip. *


Actually, he did.  He stated that it was concealed for easier retention.  Who's going to grab for your gun if they don't know you have one?



> *the ones who will be in front of a court of law, I am saying that they will not see it as a means of self defense but as a means of applying deadly force, which you are not allowed to do. *



Yes, we are allowed to use deadly force if it is justified for us to do so (i.e. defense of ourselves or another from a deadly force attack).  Also, keep in mind, if you are faced with a deadly force attack, you have to be alive to go to court.  Would you rather be judged by 12 or carried by 6? [/b][/quote]
 Let me restate that. Luno never came up with a REAL explaination for why he needed to carry concealed. I would say that a stable hip holster, with a safety strap, is probably a lot more stable than something kicking around on your leg, easily exposed if your pant leg gets even partially pulled up. Nope, if you want to carry a firearm, wear it proudly, out in the open. We're not into covert ops here in our weird wacky world of EMS, we like to stand tall and stand proud, not peer furtively over our shoulders as we pat the inside of our leg, making sure no one knows that we can blow them away if we feel they are a threat. 
Maybe you can pull up your statutes for self defense in Washington, remembering that you are not afforded the same rights as a private citizen.  To the best of my knowledge, it is reasonable force, not authorization to SHOOT AND KILL A PERCIEVED THREAT when you are working EMS, what with our directives to withdraw to a safe distance and all. 
Secondly, don't try and justify your arguements with cliches. Guns and people who buy in to catch phrases usually equals someone dead. Case in point:

Man: YOU CAN HAVE MAH GUN WHEN YOU PRY IT FROM MY COLD DEAD FINGERS!
Police: Okay! <insert sounds of gunfire here>

I really suggest you an Luno sign up for the police academy. They'll teach you the ins and outs of the use of deadly force and the those tricky legalities of when you pull out your concealed firearm and put a few rounds through someone. Leave the boring bandaging and ACLS to us losers. I really hope you guys spend at least half the time on things like bleeding control, and cardiac anatomy and physiology that you do getting a permit to carry and looking for a reason to use it.


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## ffemt8978 (Aug 18, 2005)

You asked for it, so here it is:

RCW 9A.16.050 Homicide -- By other person -- When justifiable.



> *RCW 9A.16.050
> Homicide -- By other person -- When justifiable.
> 
> Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:
> ...



I don't see anything in there where EMS is exempted from this, do you?


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## ffemt8978 (Aug 18, 2005)

Or would you prefer when the Use of Force is justifiable?

RCW 9A.16.020  Use of force -- When lawful.



> *RCW 9A.16.020
> Use of force -- When lawful.
> 
> The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:
> ...



I would also like to point out that I have been through a reserve police academy.  The reason I now have a concealed weapons permit is simple - when I was a jailer, I had my life threatened by an inmate who had attempted to kill a cop.  According to your philosophy, I should not be allowed to be an EMS provider because I choose not to be a victim and defend myself.  

I challenge you to find one post where I said I carried on my ambulance.  You won't find one because I never said that.  Your attitude that I should give up my range time to study medical texts is tantamount to condesention.  Might I suggest you pull your nose out of your books and go to a range?  Also, I do spend more time studying medical procedures than I do at the range.

I would also like to point out the absolute arrogance of your last statement.  Yes, I have a permit but no, I don't go around looking for a reason to use it.  It is the opposite, as a matter of fact.  I look for any reason not to use it and tend to avoid situations where I might have to.  I'm beginning to wonder if your opposition to this has to do with the way you feel you would handle yourself in these situations, and not the way others conduct themselves.


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## Luno (Aug 18, 2005)

Let's see, I'm gone for 56 hrs, and all hell breaks loose, well, isn't that special.  Asysin2leads, you asked me a very direct question, and committed yourself twice to silence, pending my answer.  This is no longer about guns, but this is about your inability to keep your word.  Now, as I am going to step out on the ledge again, you're probably not going to keep your word.  So I guess the next step is to call God in the morning, and have her write up that 11th commandment.  But again, I don't think it would help you keep your word either.


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## Speed (Aug 18, 2005)

EMS is neutral. You start putting guns on ambulance, and medics... We will just be another target. It's like narcotics on ambulances, not all of them have it, but you still get the run around and the junkies targeting you for a quick high (or low).

Bad idea. If you're so uncomfortable in your job that you thing a gun is necessary, wear a vest, if you still need more... become a dispatcher instead.


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## ECC (Aug 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by asysin2leads_@Aug 16 2005, 10:43 PM
> * Yeppers, FDNY EMS Battalion 08 *


 Wonderful.

I worked in the 35, 57 (when they were one 37!), the 47 (when it was 41), back to 35/57 (still 37) and then off to the wonderful world of being an officer...I then went to CB, 47, 26, 17 then 31 before I decided to leave for much greener pastures. 

I'll tell you this...it is specifically prohibited by the FDNY OPS Guide to bring any sort of weapon to the job. However I was aware (pre officer) of some whom were armed. I cannot tell you once when there was a *DOCUMENTED* event where a member of EMS got hung out to dry for having a weapon on them. I can also say I know of a medic (retired) who assisted NYPD during a shootout with the officer's back up piece. Furthermore, in the neck of the woods I worked (Bedford-Stuyvesant) I was the target of one too many misguided youths (What is a yewt?    ) who were armed. Thankfully I survived. I too was one of the first to get my ballistic vest when it was finally offered...the one I procured for personal reasons had lived beyond it's usable service life. 

What does this mean? I was not ever involved in the world of Tatical EMS. I am not trained in it, nor can I have a meaningful conversation about it. Assuming that Asys has no other training, I am thinking he is in the same boat as I am. Luno works in an atmosphere where carring concealed is OK. His medical Director has NO say in it unless he/she makes whomever listens to him put it in their OPS Guide. Remember that the Medical Directors of the FDNY make NO operational decisions...just medical ones.

I did not carry back then (the early to mid 90's) because it would have cost me a whole lot of trouble and more importantly my career because my job would not have backed me up. The risks associated with working NYC EMS during that time period were voluntary and you assumed them as such. Luno is apparantly in a different boat. 

To carry concealed in Luno's situation perhaps is the right thing to do. If he carries open, it may invite trouble that he does not need. To tell Luno where to carry is not in our scope to decide for him. 

Also...since Luno carries as part of a Tactical Team, where do you suggest he secure his weapon if you insist that he does not carry concealed? If it is a requirement for him to have a weapon for Tactical responses, he should have it on him.

This is not an attack on anyone, merely JMHO!

Stay Safe everyone!


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## rescuejew (Aug 18, 2005)

The argument has been reduced to one simple question now:  Is the use of deadly force allowable?  Here's my answer...

Whether you shoot him, stab him, or beat him with an oxygen tank, it is still deadly force.  In this state all you have to say is: "I  thought my life was in danger..."  and as long as witnesses back you, it won't be huge thing.  If someone is a PERCEIVED THREAT, what the hell does it matter whether you have a gun or not?  You're still going to fight like hell one way or another to survive.  (and those are the key words: ONE WAY OR ANOTHER)

If Luno is trained and knows how to keep his weapon from the hands of those grubby little hoodrats...who are we to say he cant have it?  If his local protocols allow him to carry concealed, leave him alone.  He's a big boy, he can handle himself.  He doesnt tarnish the profession, there are a hundred different kinds of EMTs out there, judging one doesnt unite us as a profession, it causes dissention.  

I still congratulate everyone to sticking to their guns, so to speak, but this forum is getting out of hand, in my opinion.  No one is going to miraculously change their opinion, and certainly no amount of personal, verbal assault is going to persuade anyone.  Discussion is one thing, belittling someone for their choice is another.


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## Luno (Aug 19, 2005)

Rescue Jew, I would agree with you again.      Completely out of hand, people should be able to discuss opinions without name calling, or even trying to convince someone else.  I would say that there is a difference between backing up your opinions with facts, as to why you chose to do what you did, and trying to change someone else's mind.  I'm gonna throw one more quote out there, for what it's worth.

"_Any Momentary triumph you think you have gained through argument is really a Pyrrhic victory:  The resentment and ill will you stir up is tronger and lasts longer than any momentary change of opinion.  It is much more powerful to get others to agree with you through your actions, without saying a word.  Demonstrate, do not explicate._" 

And to the rest, who have expressed their opinions, I appreciate your input, whether for or against, as it inspires discussion, and from time to time, we need introspection, even on the harder questions.  I enjoy this forum, as people can usually discuss varying opinions, and present viewpoints for or against, occasionally there are deviations from that standard.   <_<


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## ffemt8978 (Aug 19, 2005)

And on that note, I think it's time this thread gets laid to rest.  The arguements have been made, now it's time to make up your own mind.


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