# Off Duty Skills



## PAstudent (Nov 6, 2006)

Hi guys,

I'm currently an EMT-B student with my test approaching this spring. My friend was looking at the bags on galls and I thought of a question. In Pennsylvania, what can basics do off duty skill wise? Can we insert oral and nasal airways? Can we use a BVM? Can we help with nitro and epis? I think I heard someone say no glucose....

I'm just wondering what I'll be able to due when im not working.

Thanks


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## Ridryder911 (Nov 6, 2006)

First, save your money and place that into more classes. You should had been taught, what your legal implications are.... generally, you are nothing more off duty, than a 1'st responder and can use equipment that a 1'st responder can use. 

Now, carrying a bag and even stopping is a personal issue discussed here multiple times. ....

R/r 911


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## PAstudent (Nov 6, 2006)

Thanks. I wasn't planning on spending a ton of money on it.

As far as classes, I've already looked in to taking PHTLS and PEPP along with some various extrication classes, I'm pretty young and have a ton of time to learn. (Still in high school.) The main reason I took the class, in the beginning, was to put it on my application to Governors school for Health Care at Pitt, but the more I do the more interested in the field I become. I've been reading a lot on this site and find the information very useful. I even did an internship at the ER last night....(well...more of the form of me having a distal fibula fracture and going for x-rays, but that just doesn't sound quite as good.)

As far as learning the legal aspects, we did discuss the fact that we were not required to stop if we weren't advertising the fact of being in EMS. He said it was a personal decision but did not go into what skills we would be able to use if we did in fact decide to stop.

Anyway, thanks again for the information, I can't wait to get my certification and hope to make a difference like all of you.


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## MMiz (Nov 6, 2006)

You have the old school folks (wise) who says a bic pen, a pair of gloves, and a rubber band is enough, and then you have the whackers (me) that went out and bought the Galls BLS bag when I got my EMT license.  Personally I think it was one of the better investments I've made, but when you show up to work and your BLS rig carries the same... then you know you need to get out more.

It's realy all about your personal choice.  I went for the $140ish BLS bag, and I know many others that have the same.  Some have more, some have less, some have none.  I last used it for an ace bandage last week, and the week before for removing a splinter.  A few weeks before I got a bee sting, and a couple days ago I gave the eye wash to a teacher friend.  I use it a lot, while others don't.  It's really your call.


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## Jon (Nov 6, 2006)

Welcome!

What part of PA are you from?

In PA, on or off duty, we are ALL restricted to the state BLS protocols. Up until this month, we couldn't give oral glucose, because some bonehead forgot to put it in the first edition of the protocols. 11/1/06 was the official date of the new protocols, with the NEW CPR standards, etc.

Do you currently run with a volunteer Co? Where are you looking at working (Tranport, Paid 911, or vollie)???

Jon
Chester County, PA


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## PAstudent (Nov 7, 2006)

I'm in Indiana County but I plan on running with Westmont FD in Cambria County.


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## jeepmedic (Nov 16, 2006)

Take up Golf.


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## trauma1534 (Nov 16, 2006)

It's all going to depend on your state guidelines.  Here in VA, in our area, if you are a member of a volunteer oganization, you can respong and perform to your level of training, if you are operating under the area of your OMD.  Personally, and I don't mean to sound cold hearted, but I've been doing this for 12 years now, and I no longer volunteer.  In most cases, I try not to get caught up in responding to scenes off duty.  It just gets to a point of no longer wanting to put yourself out there for a possable call gone bad with a pending lawsuit and there goes my lively hood that I've worked so hard at.  I don't always go by that.  If I am really feeling froggy, I might stop to remder aid at a MVC, but most of the time, I ride by, look and keep getting it.  Now, if I am around some of my old fellow providers and something worth running comes out, I might consider running it, just to be able to run with my old friends again.  Not very often we all can get on the same scene together.  But, in most cases, when I call comes out and I'm off duty, too bad.  I just forget that I'm an EMS provider for the duration of that call!  You make your own decision according to state and local guidelines though.  I say, keep going though.


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## AnthonyM83 (Nov 16, 2006)

Don't know about PA, but in Calif., we were taught there was no difference on-duty or off-duty other than duty to act while on-duty. You must, though, follow county protocols of wherever you are, even if you're just driving through that county. So if you can check sugar in the county you work at, you might not be able to check it if there's a driver passed out on your way home in the next county, and vice-versa.

I'll slow down for vehicle accidents to get a good look to try to make sure no one is "down" or has anything immediately life-threatening, otherwise I usually keep driving. I don't want to be there just holding a gauze to someone's leg for 10 minutes.

As for other medical emergencies that develop, I'll take it case by case. If there's no one else to help out or I see someone doing something that will endanger the patient, I'll step in. I haven't yet identified myself as an EMT, though, because I don't want any issues or liability. I just get involved as a random passerbyer, not as a responding off-duty EMT.


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## SwissEMT (Nov 17, 2006)

jeepmedic said:


> Take up Golf.



:beerchug: :lol:


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## FFEMT1764 (Nov 17, 2006)

Here responding off duty is a no no, however the exception being that since I am also on the VFD I can perform skills once the ambulance gets on scene, and only if they really need me to, otherwise I save my energy for my next shift. Of course working for the county that I vollie in makes life lots easier. When I am off I am that fireman, when I am working I am that Paramedic.


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## Fedmedic (Nov 22, 2006)

I agree with Ridryder, spend your money on more classes. Then all you will need in your bag is IV fluids and Jelcos to start on yourself and your friends. No better hangover helper than a couple of liters of NS.


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## jeepmedic (Nov 22, 2006)

Take up Golf.


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## Pablo the Pirate (Nov 22, 2006)

here  in the great frozen state of MN it's the law you have a duty of act even when off duty.  that doesnt mean you have to stop and render aid just make sure that the system has been activated. simple 911 covers your arse...or thats what i understood when we went through it. anyhow my service after you put in a certain amount of time gives you a small FR bag.  it has like 4x4, multitruama dressing, stethoscope and bp cuff, gloves, and other general simple procedure stuff.  i think it might have a tube of gulctose in it too. thats all i have in my car and i've never used it for anything other than stupid pidily crap.


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## fm_emt (Nov 23, 2006)

AnthonyM83 said:


> You must, though, follow county protocols of wherever you are, even if you're just driving through that county.



That is one of many things that I *HATE* about California. The county-by-county bullcrap causes more problems than it solves.

UGH! We run into that kind of stuff all the time. "Oh, crap, this is San Mateo county. They're gonna give us spider straps, and when we use them in Santa Clara county, FD is going to look at us like we have just grown a third eyeball."

But statewide, I think you're right. Unless you're a -P, then you can only act as a -B while responding off-duty. Something like that.


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## Jon (Nov 24, 2006)

fm_emt said:


> That is one of many things that I *HATE* about California. The county-by-county bullcrap causes more problems than it solves.
> 
> UGH! We run into that kind of stuff all the time. "Oh, crap, this is San Mateo county. They're gonna give us spider straps, and when we use them in Santa Clara county, FD is going to look at us like we have just grown a third eyeball."
> 
> But statewide, I think you're right. Unless you're a -P, then you can only act as a -B while responding off-duty. Something like that.


Some counties specify Spider Straps?


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## fm_emt (Nov 24, 2006)

Jon said:


> Some counties specify Spider Straps?



I'm not sure if it's in their protocol, but every single rig out of San Mateo County that we've restocked from has carried nothing but spider straps. So we end up with a pile of the things, and when we use them in *this* county (rarely happens, but it has..) the arriving crew looks at us and says "Where'd you guys find THESE bloody things?" Usually I respond with "We ran out of duct tape."

Ours say "3 x 9 foot webbed belt or equiv." for a BLS Non-Transport agency. That's us. So we always have at least that many, and thanks to that other county, we also have a pile of spider straps. Brand new, in the packaging.


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## AnthonyM83 (Nov 25, 2006)

Yeah, I didn't even know what a spider strap was until I rode with SFFD (FF_EMT, I'm learning our EMT class was inadequate on a lot of topics...). And then I went to LA and they just use this 3 belt system. Basically 3 seatbelts...not of that secure San Jose FD style we were taught. They're really not immobilized that well...


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## eggshen (Nov 25, 2006)

Spend some time doing this for a living and you will not want for a moment to consider doing it off duty. You spend your $ going to school further so you will not have to do this at all.

Egg


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## fm_emt (Nov 25, 2006)

AnthonyM83 said:


> Yeah, I didn't even know what a spider strap was until I rode with SFFD (FF_EMT, I'm learning our EMT class was inadequate on a lot of topics...). And then I went to LA and they just use this 3 belt system. Basically 3 seatbelts...not of that secure San Jose FD style we were taught. They're really not immobilized that well...



I have a great time with the Santa Clara County method. It's quick, easy, works well... and is different than what AMR uses here in the same county! I love how Fire & AMR have two different methods. heh.

PM me with a list of what you thought was inadequate.  I thought everything was pretty good, and it certainly spurred me to read up more on my own. I think that the class is a good starting point.


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## Stevo (Nov 25, 2006)

well i'm amused folks

we have ems'ers here that would pass by an incident, maybe stop if it was a juicy one, or maybe not.  i seriously  have to wonder why some of you even got into the biz with comments like that?

out here in dogpatch it is actually an offense to pass an incident up while holding a cert.  in fact my off duty skills are about the same as my on duty skills, just less toys.  

i guess you metro folks have it made, big budgets, gps positioned rigs, all the bells and whistles...enough that your protocalls _insist_ you pass by...? why _bother_ to get a personal jump kit?

rather cocky imho....

perhaps i'm just jealous. maybe i've been hiding out in the puckerbrush a tad too long, always considered ems a good nieghbor _community service_, not some 9-5 profession to be shut off at the days end

then again, i will say it's a real drag responding to a bad incident when the only ambulance is out of town and mutual aid is 15 min away

maybe some of you could put in a word or two so i can rubberneck on by too?

~S~


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## ffemt8978 (Nov 25, 2006)

Stevo said:


> always considered ems a good nieghbor _community service_, not some 9-5 profession to be shut off at the days end
> 
> ~S~



This point bears repeating, since it's something we tend to forget all too easily.


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## AnthonyM83 (Nov 26, 2006)

At almost every accident, the most your skills will be able to change medical outcome is a by holding c-spine. Now, this could be reason to stop at every accident by itself. I'll give you that.

But you also have to realize you're putting yourself at risk (depending on your area) stopping your car, running around the road, interacting with unknown individuals. Also, we're not just ignoring it, but stopping to make sure people are okay as best we can. I also call in every accident I can't stop at (other side of the freeway divider) to 911. But in most accidents that aren't critical, there's little you'll really be doing for them medically.

As a teen, I used to stop at every single accident. Once I was running late for school, but had I been on time I would have stopped for what looked like a big rig & car accident...it was actually a domestic dispute that turned into a murder (shooting). Had I been on time, I would most certainly have been in the middle of it and chances are I would have gotten hurt.

Once I almost caused an accident trying to pull over. I didn't think I was being unsafe, but a friend driving behind me told me, later.

An off-duty who stopped to help (a few cities away) was killed by a passing vehicle.

The longer you're in it, your risk analysis increases, your reasons to stay safe increase (family, etc), your excitement for the call decreases.

Also, keep in mind that I live in very busy areas. Closest emergency unit is usually 1 - 3 minutes (sometimes 5) away. So, if people are just walking around their cars talking, then I'll decide not to stop. If there's a car veered off to the side of the road, I'll stop if I safely can or even wait till the next exit, go back one exit, then turn around again so I can come up to it (while callling 911).

Least that's how I think of it. When I was younger, though, I'd stop at every single accident. Never once was were there serious injuries.


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## Fedmedic (Nov 26, 2006)

Talking about responding to emergencies off duty brought to mind a sad story that gives a new perspective on this topic, at least it did to me. 

A very close friend of mine and former co-worker who happened to be an exceptionally gifted paramedic was on his way to work one morning when he passed a MVA. He didn't stop because he was not on duty and had recently changed jobs and was not a paramedic in this county, in this particular state; paramedic is a county by county thing, although he was still able to practice as an EMT. Anyway, later that day he found out it was a former co-worker and paramedic that had been killed in that very same MVA, and might I add a very, very close friend to him and me.  He did not take it very well that he did not stop, even though, in reality there was nothing he could have done to change the outcome, he still "what if's the situation." And he is no longer in EMS, whether this played a role, I don't really know. To summarize, I think this gave me a different attitude to responding to incidents I happen upon. Before, I just used to ignore most of the incidents, I had enough during my 24 hour shifts, I didn't need to deal withany on my off-duty time. This has changed my philosophy. 

Just a thought....


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## Stevo (Nov 26, 2006)

woulda coulda shoulda's abound *Fedmedic*

and i suppose i might have a different outlook should i know a rig is within 1-5 minutes *Anthony* 


but for much of the rural contingent it's not

to add, there is no 100% safety net in the rescue biz, when we signed up we signed up for the inherent risks in order to help people

~S~


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## jeepmedic (Nov 26, 2006)

If I am out of my Dept.'s response area and stop for a fender bender and get stuck because I am the only one there and My Dept. has an ALS call then who gets the justice? I am on of only 2 ALS providers in my Dept. it is a Volly Dept. and we only have 2 Als providers that respond. I try to provide services for the Dept. that I am in. If everyone is out walking around then I will not stop but if it just happened then I will stop and call it in.

 But remember that in this day and time with Cell phones a 911 center can get about 10 to 15 calls on any accident in the first min. so you can do harm by calling it in by delaying the dispatch. If you stop and render care and are not in your area covered by your OMD then you are practicing medicine without a Lic. 

In some states and agencys if you stop and render aid and something happens and you get hurt then you are not covered by any Ins. So guess how has to foot the bill. I have a family that does not need me working to support a medical bill that I could have just let the responders who have the ins. cover.


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## Summit (Nov 26, 2006)

Since a lot of areas can have extended response around here, I certainly would stop at an MVC IF:

1. There was no help on scene
2. The crash was severe enough to suspect someone needed help
3. I could help safely

*And then I am acting at the level of a FR* (unless one of the various agencies I belong to is responding)... and in *most* cases the biggest difference I could make would be *about* the same as the most effective care offered by another *onscene* for trauma: ABCDs.

The same goes for accidents I've come across in the wilderness, on the river, or even on a ski hill. 

I wouldn't feel right walking past a person in need regardless of my job or education.

From the other direction, when I ran way out into rural areas I was on more than one MCI where I was pretty stoked to have an offduty EMT or medic who was already on scene with a report and vitals for 5 patients when the next unit is 25 minutes out. The same goes for showing to a scene half way up a mountain to find a passing WFR has controlled the bleeding, taken a history (on the now altered patient, nice to have that info), and applied more clothes.


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## Stevo (Nov 26, 2006)

so we're going to foist licensure and insurance concerns to hide behind *Jeepmedic/b] ?

mighty thin

in fact anorexic....

sure, next time i see someone in pain w/o apparent help, i'll keep that in mind....

~S~*


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## jeepmedic (Nov 26, 2006)

Stevo said:


> so we're going to foist licensure and insurance concerns to hide behind *Jeepmedic/b] ?
> 
> mighty thin
> 
> ...


*



In todays world you better. If someone can sue McDonalds and win for spilling coffee on themselves then you can bet they can and will sue you. It is not that I want to watch someone die or be in pain but when things go wrong a lawyer will look for anyone he can to get money from because he doesn't get paid unless he wins money so he will come after you. Like I have said before Take up Golf*


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## Stevo (Nov 26, 2006)

i really never could see the point of wacking a small object around the lawn *Jeepmedic*, other than one is allowed to get a good buzz on at $8 a brew _(although i suppose having them served via golf cart bars by scantily clad help makes it worth it for the viagra crowd)_

and surprising enough, lawyers merely do the bidding of what any given populance asks of them

as such, my mates are my best CYA for those twilight zone calls

at the end of the day, sorts like me and you can only rubberneck to a certain point

that's why we're in this crazy biz...

peace out brother

~S~


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## jeepmedic (Nov 26, 2006)

Stevo said:


> i really never could see the point of wacking a small object around the lawn *Jeepmedic*, other than one is allowed to get a good buzz on at $8 a brew _(although i suppose having them served via golf cart bars by scantily clad help makes it worth it for the viagra crowd)_
> 
> and surprising enough, lawyers merely do the bidding of what any given populance asks of them
> 
> ...



Golf is a good 3 to 6 hour trip away from everything (read: wife) 


And no I don't want a lawyer bidding on my house


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## Stevo (Nov 26, 2006)

> (read: wife)



to be honest, after 2 of them rippin' me a new a**hole , i would have fared much better out on the green

can i get a Cap & Coke out there?

~S~


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## jeepmedic (Nov 26, 2006)

Cap and Coke would go good with a round of golf.B)


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## Stevo (Nov 26, 2006)

come to Vermont and it's on me *Jeepmedic*

~S~


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## jeepmedic (Nov 26, 2006)

To d@m* cold. We have to meet at the beach and play around.


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## ffemt8978 (Nov 26, 2006)

jeepmedic said:


> If I am out of my Dept.'s response area and stop for a fender bender and get stuck because I am the only one there and My Dept. has an ALS call then who gets the justice? I am on of only 2 ALS providers in my Dept. it is a Volly Dept. and we only have 2 Als providers that respond. I try to provide services for the Dept. that I am in. If everyone is out walking around then I will not stop but if it just happened then I will stop and call it in.



What's the difference if you're out of your response area shopping or stopping to assist at an accident?  Either way, when you're out of your area, you're removing 50% of your ALS coverage.


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## trauma1534 (Nov 26, 2006)

ffemt8978 said:


> What's the difference if you're out of your response area shopping or stopping to assist at an accident?  Either way, when you're out of your area, you're removing 50% of your ALS coverage.



I think what Jeep is trying to say here if I may add, here where we are, in Virginia, it is policy that when you are outside of your OMD's area, then you are no longer working off of his licence.  Thus, if you practace any skill out of is licence area, it is viewed as practacing medicain without a licence.  Sad, but true.  We in Virginia have to be careful about that.  I live in a different area than my OMD now, so if I stop at an accident here, I am practicing without a licence, until I can become affiliated with an agency here locally.  Where I work EMS, is 1 hour and 15 min away.  

Another way to look at it, and this is absolutly no disrespect ment, but it is a difference in the way that you look at things when you are a career provider, verses a volunteer.  For alot of reasons.  In this case, our certification is our livelyhood.  If we do anything to loose it, we loose our jobs.  No offence toward volunteers by any means, but they don't have as much to loose as we do.  If they loose thier certs, they can still eat, stay warm, and have a roof over thier heads, they just can't volunteer anymore.  

There should be no difference in the professionalism between volunteers and career providers when it comes to the public eye... they should not be able to tell the difference.  However, alot of times it is.  I know I tend to be a little extra attentive to how I handle things involving my certification.  

That is a big reason why I am not so eager to run up on a scene that I am not dispatched to.  Am I guilty of it?  Sur I am at some times, we all are.  When I am in my OMD's area, I'll stop some.  But, outside the area, it has to be pretty bad for me to stop.  I've done it, but I put myself and my livelyhood out on the line when I did.


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## jeepmedic (Nov 26, 2006)

If a Dr. from Hospital A is visiting his wife in Hospital B, and there is a major MCI do you think he will just "stop" by the ED and help out? Nope he does not have privalges in hospital B then he can not practice there and he will not. Because he will lose his Medical Lic. Same thing here.


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## Summit (Nov 27, 2006)

jeepmedic said:


> If a Dr. from Hospital A is visiting his wife in Hospital B, and there is a major MCI do you think he will just "stop" by the ED and help out? Nope he does not have privalges in hospital B then he can not practice there and he will not. Because he will lose his Medical Lic. Same thing here.



If a Dr. from Hospital A is visiting his wife in Hospital B, and then someone collapses in the parking lot as he drives in, do you think the Dr  is just going to call 911 then just stand there and watch?

Who freaking cares what letters are after you name. Nobody is telling you to break the law. ARE YOU A GOOD SAMARITAN OR NOT?


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## AnthonyM83 (Nov 27, 2006)

Stevo said:


> to add, there is no 100% safety net in the rescue biz, when we signed up we signed up for the inherent risks in order to help people



I'm guessing you're on the young side. I don't say this as an insult in anyway, but when I was younger and a police explorer, this was my exact mentality. But when you get on the job, they pound it in your head the whole extreme imporance of putting your safety first. The result is you still put yourself at risk, but a lot less.

Also, with age, I don't know what it was exactly. Maybe just getting over the indestructable teen phase (not that I thought I was indestructable, I just didn't mind taking chances)...but then you get older and something clicks. Not sure what it is, but you now value your safety more. You think about the grief you'd give your own family if injured or all the different ways you could be permantently injured (but not dead).

I'm still relatively young, though, and I know I'm willing to do things older guys aren't...because I still crave a bit of the adventure. But I bet when I get marrried and have a kid, something else will "click" and my mindset will change.

Not to say you don't put yourself at some risk to help people, but you keep safety and consequences more at the front of your mind. It's hard to explain...but I remember myself once arguing that it'd be ridiculous not to help a lady on the street getting her purse stolen. People tried to explain that the guy could just turn around and shoot you....all over some stupid money, but I didn't get it...now I do. (Of course, if she were being harmed, it'd be different...but just an example of mindframe shifts and why some people might be replying with posts that surprise you).

But of course I really doubt anyone's going to just drive past someone whose seriously injured...but it's not worth it to stop and run around at each accident if it looks okay just from you slowing down and looking at it and everyone's calm walking around and little body damage seen.


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## FFEMT1764 (Nov 27, 2006)

Here in SC if you happen to stop at an accident and render aid at a basic level, no matter what level you are, you are covered under the Good Samaritan Act, however if you start doing invaise things then you better be acting under your med control, just to be safe. I live in the county I work for, and I am the medical director of my VFD, and even thought I am a medic when I am on the BRT I can only function as a first responder until the ambulance arrives, and then at the discretion of the medic on the truck, I can operate as a medic and assist with ALS care, but again that is only if the medic on the transport unit needs me to help (i.e. cardiac arrest, multiple trauma patients, severe respiratory patient, etc).

Now I am currently trying to get more people to join my VFD that are EMT's so that we can apply to the state of a BLS/ALS first reponder license, but we need 2-3 more EMT's to join for us to consider it.


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## jeepmedic (Nov 27, 2006)

Summit said:


> If a Dr. from Hospital A is visiting his wife in Hospital B, and then someone collapses in the parking lot as he drives in, do you think the Dr  is just going to call 911 then just stand there and watch?
> 
> Who freaking cares what letters are after you name. Nobody is telling you to break the law. ARE YOU A GOOD SAMARITAN OR NOT?



When you are older and have enough experience to make an educated response then come ask me who cares. And it is breaking the law to practice without a Lic.


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## jeepmedic (Nov 27, 2006)

Summit said:


> ARE YOU A GOOD SAMARITAN OR NOT?



You need to read the Good Samaritan Act. It protects you from Criminal law not Civil Law. You can still loose everything to a Law Suit.


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## Ridryder911 (Nov 27, 2006)

Physicians can work at any facility, it is not the license it is the privileges for coverage for medical malpractice and authority to cover them. As a ER Manager, I am was very familiar with the accreditation of getting license personal covered. Most hospitals, usually have a "disaster" clause to allow non-staff physicians to be covered under their "umbrella" clause. 

Physicians are licensed to practice medicine on their own license in their State. They do not have to have a facility or even be associated with one, to practice, as long as they want to assume the risks. This is however is different from those that don't have a license to practice medicine, unless you have specific protocols or being directed by medical control with authority in that area that is giving direction, you should work at a first responder level. Thus, basically as a first aider. 

Unless, your service describes or has protocols in regards to any ALS tx, for "off duty" then you are acting and performing on your own accord. Then one could be held responsible for practicing medicine without a license as well. It is even illegal to carry IV fluids, needles, etc.. off duty without a prescription (this is a Federal Law read it on any medical equipment). Albeit, I doubt any D.A. would waste their time.. unless there is other circumstances. 

Little about the Good Samaritan Law... was basically introduced from an article in Reader's Digest. This article describes that "physicians" were not stopping at accidents. Ironically, there had not been any reported law suits, until after the article was published. Like others stated, it will not protect you from civil litigation, but would be hard to push.. 

R/r 911


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## trauma1534 (Nov 27, 2006)

I wish I new how to play golf!  I choose to be on EMSLife, that's more interesting!  Myspace is cool too!


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## FFEMT1764 (Nov 27, 2006)

Well my final opinion on this- if you are off duty and you decide to practice without being under your medical control's authority, you better have a good lawyer on retainer-this is the most litigious society in the world!


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## Summit (Nov 27, 2006)

jeepmedic said:


> When you are older and have enough experience to make an educated response then come ask me who cares. And it is breaking the law to practice without a Lic.



Wow, I was fired up yesterday. I had an "interesting" day yesterday. Sorry for that tone in my post. It wasn't warranted

But like I said before (in the post where I was not fired up) there are circumstances where I will stop and help.

Like I said, I'm not going to practice without authority. I'm not about to carry an IV kit in my car and start it on the first dehydrated person I see. Acting on the FR level is acceptable and legal. You don't need a medical director to hold c-spine, perform CPR, or control bleeding as a good samaritan. Heck, I don't think I've ever mentioned I was an EMT. It isn't necessary. "I know first aid. Can I help you?"



jeepmedic said:


> You need to read the Good Samaritan Act. It protects you from Criminal law not Civil Law. You can still loose everything to a Law Suit.



Yes. An anecdote: a good friend of mine, an old paramedic, was actually sued because he had a big star of life on his bumper as he slowly drove past an accident and didn't stop. He had no duty to act, but someone wrote down his license plate and sued him anyways. They did NOT win the case. He still had to pay a lawyer.

You can sue anyone for anything. But there is a difference between suing and winning. However, it sucks for you either way and the lawyers always always win.

I choose to limit how I live in fear of the boobs and theirs lawyers. I don't have a star of life on my car almost solely because of my friend's story. But like I said before there are circumstances where I will stop and help because under those circumstances, telling myself that I was protecting myself from lawsuits wouldn't have helped me slept. 

Another anecdote: my father was an emergency doc and I remember when I was 6 years old we were driving across a long stretch of desert highway we came across a car in the median with the driver ejected. There was nobody helping. My dad pulled over and went to help and had my mom drive me and and herself off to a service station 20 miles down the road to call 911 (no cellphones back then).

Despite my tone earlier, there is no moral absolute correct answer here. I know what is right for me and my morals balanced with the risks I'm willing to take.


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## trauma1534 (Nov 27, 2006)

I know tht if you guys stop out of your territory to render care, you would have the best intentions in mind.  However... some of the worst things ever known to man have happened out of good intentions.  Look at Asoma Bin Ladin.  He had good intentions to his country to fly plains into our WTC and Pentigon killing thousands of people.  See what I mean?  Be carefull of your good intentions!


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## jeepmedic (Nov 27, 2006)

trauma1534 said:


> I wish I new how to play golf!  I choose to be on EMSLife, that's more interesting!  Myspace is cool too!



Golf is simple. 
1- Hit the Ball
2- Drink Beer
3- repeat.

If you loose said ball just drop another one where  you think it should be and hit another one.


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## Fedmedic (Nov 27, 2006)

jeepmedic said:


> Golf is simple.
> 1- Hit the Ball
> 2- Drink Beer
> 3- repeat.
> ...



I like co-ed naked golf better!!


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## jeepmedic (Nov 27, 2006)

KInd of cold this time of year though.


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## Summit (Nov 27, 2006)

trauma1534 said:


> I know tht if you guys stop out of your territory to render care, you would have the best intentions in mind.  However... some of the worst things ever known to man have happened out of good intentions.  Look at Asoma Bin Ladin.  He had good intentions to his country to fly plains into our WTC and Pentigon killing thousands of people.  See what I mean?  Be carefull of your good intentions!



So... if I stop to help someone out of good intentions instead of a state duty to act law... I'm supporting the terrorists. I always knew I was somehow responsible for 9-11. I think the FBI is knocking at my door to take me away to Gitmo!


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## trauma1534 (Nov 27, 2006)

Summit said:


> So... if I stop to help someone out of good intentions instead of a state duty to act law... I'm supporting the terrorists. I always knew I was somehow responsible for 9-11. I think the FBI is knocking at my door to take me away to Gitmo!



Negative!  You are not supporting the terrorists!  Come on man!  That was an example of someone's deffinition of good intentions.

Now, to address the state duty to act law, here goes.

If your truck, or your agancy has been dispatched to a call and you sign enroute, you now have a duty to act!!!  If you stop at your own will at another agency's call, and you are out of your medical direction's jurisdiction, then you are out of line.  You are operating on your own risk for whatever may come of it.  

Use common sence!!  Come on man!!!


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## Summit (Nov 27, 2006)

I think you missed the two winky faces  and the sticking out of the tongue  in my last past

thats internetese to indicate my tongue was firmly planted in my cheek on that post... i was merely making light of your analogy which I thought really didn't apply to this situation. it was just sarcasm
no worries!


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## trauma1534 (Nov 27, 2006)

Summit said:


> I think you missed the two winky faces  and the sticking out of the tongue  in my last past
> 
> thats internetese to indicate my tongue was firmly planted in my cheek on that post... i was merely making light of your analogy which I thought really didn't apply to this situation. it was just sarcasm
> no worries!



Summit, now you being ugly!  Come on now, behave and act pretty!


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## Summit (Nov 27, 2006)

trauma1534 said:


> Summit, now you being ugly!  Come on now, behave and act pretty!



now you got that hang of it! 

unfortunately, my uglyness is a condition caused by just being naturally ugly (or possibly dropped on my face a lot when little...) *sniff* my feelings are crushed!!!!


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## Jon (Nov 27, 2006)

Summit said:


> If a Dr. from Hospital A is visiting his wife in Hospital B, and then someone collapses in the parking lot as he drives in, do you think the Dr  is just going to call 911 then just stand there and watch?
> 
> Who freaking cares what letters are after you name. Nobody is telling you to break the law. ARE YOU A GOOD SAMARITAN OR NOT?


I think this is a sticking point in some of our perspectives.

I don't think anyone is saying that you should run around with a full ALS kit... THAT can and will get you into trouble. If you have some ALS stuff around for yourself (hangovers) and your immediate family... well, that is YOUR personal choice. You probably AREN'T covered to provide ALS-level care off-duty, because you are doing invasive procedures.

If, however, you have a decent BLS-level first aid kit - you are acting as a "good samiritan" and it is difficult to say you killed someone because you stopped and applied a bandage or even, perhaps, a c-collar.

I think many of us are willing to stop and aid at the BLS level. Espicially since I have a EMS license plate and a squad plate on the front of my car... I make an effort to stop unless there is help already there... Why? because I don't want to get in trouble for failure to stop at an incident (I'm not 100% sure if they can cite me for it... I've heard different stories from different cops).

Jon


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## fm_emt (Nov 27, 2006)

I think that some of the biggest points to consider here are..

* You may get in trouble if you're outside of your county. In some states, this is not an issue. California is one of them. I'm certified by one county, but if I'm operating at a BLS level in another county, that's ok. The basic BLS protocols are just National Registry stuff anyway.

* The Good Sam act may or may not protect you. Research (and a few lawyers) has taught me that lawsuits against EMS providers are actually fairly uncommon. As DT4EMS has mentioned before, the leading cause of lawsuits against EMS providers is vehicle collisions. 

* Lawyers farkin' suck rocks. Fortunately for me, a longtime friend & co-worker just passed the state Bar exam and is now a lawyer. Free lawyers are a lot more useful. Hopefully I'll never need to call him for it.


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## PArescueEMT (Dec 5, 2006)

in Pennsy as it is in Jersey you have a "Duty to act" meaning you are supposed to stop and provide care to the level of your training and equipment. If you have no Equipment, then triage or C-Spine is all you can really do. Jon can tell you how much equipment i have, well most of what i have. I now have a fully stocked SAR bag

and Carbon isn't to far from my hunting property in Tioga



PAstudent said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm currently an EMT-B student with my test approaching this spring. My friend was looking at the bags on galls and I thought of a question. In Pennsylvania, what can basics do off duty skill wise? Can we insert oral and nasal airways? Can we use a BVM? Can we help with nitro and epis? I think I heard someone say no glucose....
> 
> ...


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## firecoins (Jan 10, 2007)

I just provide first aid.  No meds whatsoever.  I hold head stabilization in MVA's, i stabalize broken limbs, I maintain airways and tell responding units whats up.  Thats it.  I don't even do full assessments, just abbreviated quickies to move things along.


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