# if you responed to a scene with a dead loved one



## ulrik (Aug 12, 2008)

I’m just going into the wondrous field of EMT, put this scenario through my head and I am starting to accept seeing one of my friends or my family dead. but how would you feel?


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## BossyCow (Aug 12, 2008)

Pretty rotten actually.


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## karaya (Aug 12, 2008)

I couldn't fathom the thought.


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## motownems (Aug 12, 2008)

That’s a joyful thought.   I would think it would probably depend on the type of scene. Responding to an elderly relative’s residence and discovering them DRT would be sad however I do not think it would be the worst.  A messy MVA involving a loved one would be bad.
 From a liability stand point I’m not sure most agencies would want you to be working on a family member. 

I’m glad my agency is 200 plus miles from my nearest relative…


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## Ridryder911 (Aug 12, 2008)

Unfortunately, I have seen both sides. It is an overwhelming conflict of emotions that I would not want to be placed upon even my worst enemies. Your are torn apart emotionally by your intellectual scientific/medical side and then the humanistic/emotional side. 

I hope I NEVER have to witness and feel again. 

R/r 911


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## WuLabsWuTecH (Aug 12, 2008)

Wow, so here I am running through threads on EMTLife and all of a sudden I read this and fell like I've been slammed into a brick wall.

I think i might start running the other way?  Hopefully I'll never have to find out (knocks on nearest piece of wood)

Anyway, now that i'v hit the brick wall i'm signing off of EMTLife for a bit lest the next thread be a nuclear warhead (or as Bush would say, 'nucular' warhead)


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## KEVD18 (Aug 12, 2008)

motownems said:


> From a liability stand point I’m not sure most agencies would want you to be working on a family member.



you wont always have the choice. if you work in a rural setting you might be teh only duty ambulance for miles. you might also be on a truck staffed medic/driver. or emt/medic. if your teh medic, its your call


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## BossyCow (Aug 12, 2008)

The first time I performed CPR was on my father and he did not survive. I was 19 and not in EMS. It sucks, you live with it, get over it eventually and move on.


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## jazminestar (Aug 12, 2008)

i think about it often since a lot of people that i used to hang out with still party like they are 21......i really hope to never have to be there if something happens to one of them


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## ulrik (Aug 12, 2008)

i think i wouldn't be able to handle my mom's scene but others i could stomach.


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## fma08 (Aug 12, 2008)

I'm thankful that I live in a... I guess larger city where there is a minimal chance of that happening. I'm not sure I could go work EMS back home.


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## ulrik (Aug 12, 2008)

it would give me closure if they died in transport, at least i knew i did what i could.


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## MMiz (Aug 13, 2008)

ulrik said:


> it would give me closure if they died in transport, at least i knew i did what i could.


Your view on that is contrary to most of what I see in EMS.  Usually we have the "They're not going to die in my ambulance" philosophy.  You do what you got to do to keep them alive or maintain their condition, then you pawn them off on the ER folks.


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## mycrofft (Aug 13, 2008)

*You must fasten down and do what you are supposed to.*

You honor them by doing what is right and best.
Sucessfully treating folks you know can be a blast, or the revelatons which occur durig the process can split you forever. Same for family I guess. As for death...a lot rides on how you "process" death.


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## traumateam1 (Aug 13, 2008)

I cannot imagine reading the address off of a data head, or hearing the call on the radio.. the response there would be horrible.. I would probably feel like throwing up right there in the front of my ambulance. And once I get on scene.. I can't even fathom the feelings I would feel. I'm HOPING I can, even though this sounds horrible, push my emotions aside until the call is over, so I can provide the best patient care for a loved one of mine. I'm sure after the call is over and the adrenaline has passed, that's when it would hit me like a ton of bricks. I honestly hope that I never have to respond to that call.. however living in a city this size, where the majority of my family lives.. Unfortunately I'm sure it's just a matter of time.


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## BossyCow (Aug 13, 2008)

I guess it depends on how you react to situations like that. When the excrement contacts the ventilation device, I tend to become extremely focused and task oriented. Afterwards is when I react emotionally to the event.


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## Jon (Aug 13, 2008)

This has happened. Usually, other members recognize that it is "your" house or "your" car... and they intercept you and keep you out.

Hopefully, there are enough resources around that you don't need to be on that call. You won't be working in the right frame of mind... so you really need to recuse yourself.


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## emt19723 (Aug 13, 2008)

ive been contmeplating this one myself since i now run in my parents' first due area.

answer:   i have no idea


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## CARRERA (Feb 5, 2010)

I know this is a old thread but I just came across it and would like to share my experience that relates to this issue.

In September of 09' I had been in my EMT-B class for a about a month when I got a call from my mom's friend who was staying at her house for a few months. She told me that the paramedics were at the house because my mom was not feeling well the entire morning but came out of her room and asked her to call 911. I asked her to tell me exactly what she was complaining of and what she looked like. She explained that she had SOB, chest pain, pale, and anxious. As the paramedics arrived she had rapidly declined and was diaphoretic, cyanotic, confused and was going in and out of consciousness. 

I tried to stay calm and told myself that she will be ok. I figured that with assisted ventilation and rapid transport, the ER will get her stabilized.  Things didn't happen that way. She went into cardiac arrest with PEA during transport. They couldn't get her intubated and could not get an IV.  The ER knew that she was a renal PT with hyperkalemia and treated her appropriately. They had her intubated and got a femoral line immediately. The ER worked for 30 minutes and but their efforts were unsuccessful. I arrived just after they went in so I didn't see how serious it was until a social worker came out and walked with meet with the ER attending.

Class was very difficult for a few weeks but I got through it, I know that's what my mom would have wanted. We spoke earlier that week and I had just told her about class, I had waited a while to tell her because I didn't want to disappoint her if I dropped the class. EMS was my mom's dream career but with physical disabilities it was not possible for her. She was ecstatic when I had told her about my plans.

I think the passion for this line of work is genetic, I can't count how many toy firetrucks and ambulances I had or how many times my mom and I would stop and talk to EMS personel and ask tons of questions. :blush:


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## firetender (Feb 6, 2010)

CARRERA said:


> I know this is a old thread but I just came across it and would like to share my experience that relates to this issue.
> ...
> 
> I think the passion for this line of work is genetic, I can't count how many toy firetrucks and ambulances I had or how many times my mom and I would stop and talk to EMS personel and ask tons of questions. :blush:



Many Thanks for your sharing, Carrera. How tough it must have all been! And we do get through it. Don't neglect feeling the pain and loss. Paradoxically,it helps you feel the beauty that much more deeply. No, it may not be today, but it will come.

It's a tough job we choose because at any time we could be called upon to attend to a loved one. Now that you know what it feels like to come real close, you'll be better equipped to support others as they deal with their loved ones in crisis. 

Your Mom gave you lots of gifts, one of which was a love for this work; and that boils down to just a couple of words: Do what you can! That means learning from everything, including her death.


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## rescue99 (Feb 6, 2010)

ulrik said:


> it would give me closure if they died in transport, at least i knew i did what i could.



This is one of the healthiest approaches I've seen. You will have a long EMS career if you so choose.


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## reaper (Feb 6, 2010)

Start searching the drawers, looking for the will?


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## rescue99 (Feb 6, 2010)

reaper said:


> Start searching the drawers, looking for the will?



:lol:  Sorry...the subject ain't funny but seeing this kinda warrents a giggle.


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## firetender (Feb 6, 2010)

reaper said:


> Start searching the drawers, looking for the will?



Good job for setting yourself up for someone ripping your guts out while you're mourning. This business is all about what goes around, comes around. Wake up, Reaper, your stance demeans us all!


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## firetender (Feb 6, 2010)

reaper said:


> Start searching the drawers, looking for the will?



Good job for setting yourself up for someone ripping your guts out while you're mourning. This business is all about what goes around, comes around. Wake up, Reaper, your stance demeans us all!

If you are this way with your peers, what are the odds you're this way with your patients? And Rescue 99 is influenced by you; great example!


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## firetender (Feb 6, 2010)

*And...*

I have been busted on this site before for being a hypocrite by reverting to the same gallows humor I rant against because it demeans the human being. I plead guilty! Yet, this is clearly a case of someone (one of US) trying to sort through new and deep personal challenges and coming here for help, support and perspective. That's a sacred trust, Gang, and we should hold it as such.


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## reaper (Feb 7, 2010)

firetender said:


> Good job for setting yourself up for someone ripping your guts out while you're mourning. This business is all about what goes around, comes around. Wake up, Reaper, your stance demeans us all!
> 
> If you are this way with your peers, what are the odds you're this way with your patients? And Rescue 99 is influenced by you; great example!



Time to look for a life?

It is called humor, it is used to break tension in a subject.

I have run on calls to family members and have dealt with the aftermath of them. There is nothing that anyone on this forum is going to tell The OP, that will help them deal with it.

This is something that can only be dealt with, at the time. You can not prepare for it, or think you are ready.

Don't ever bring my Pt care into question. I have been in this business for over 20 years and my Pt care has never wavered. I do not let this job burn me out or become disgruntled. I have enjoyed this profession for the Pt care. Some of us stay in the job, because of the Pt care that is enjoyed.


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## rescue99 (Feb 7, 2010)

firetender said:


> Good job for setting yourself up for someone ripping your guts out while you're mourning. This business is all about what goes around, comes around. Wake up, Reaper, your stance demeans us all!
> 
> If you are this way with your peers, what are the odds you're this way with your patients? And Rescue 99 is influenced by you; great example!



Seriously? Really, seriously? Like I would ever let anyone ever influence my judgement.

 No.1. I've been there when a family member has died and watched the scared, grief stricken faces of our fire department/police co-workers.

 NO.2. Twice this situation has been within my immediate family. Same people responding, same responses on their faces. These same guys and gals always let me know when they've run on my grama. They often hear before I do, for obvious reasons. Ya think that's easy for them? It's no easier than it is for family when one is so close to peers. 

Responding FD/PD folks are as professional with family as anybody I've ever seen. Certainly more so than Doc's and nurses can be...and far more professional about it in many cases. Even the biggest goof-ball has the professionalism to draw the line. I'm not worried about Reaper or his bad, bad influences. He's probably the most together guy on a scene because he has an outlet. Here, on this forum, he should be able to laugh a little and not get slammed too hard for it.


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## VentMedic (Feb 7, 2010)

rescue99 said:


> Responding FD/PD folks are as professional with family as anybody I've ever seen. Certainly more so than Doc's and nurses can be...and far more professional about it in many cases.


 
Why the hatred of nurses and doctors?  Do you really see Doctors and nurses as uncaring and unprofessional?    Have you ever spent 12 hours at the bedside of a good friend or co-worker providing their care and taking care of the family members.  Chances are you have not seen what nurses do.  Nurses are not unprofessional when it comes to death and dying. Howver, they do have more education and training in it and for the amount of death they see, they are taught how to deal with these situations more than some in EMS.  

Reaper can make these comments because his other many posts have shown he has what it takes to do good patient care.


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## Sasha (Feb 7, 2010)

VentMedic said:


> Why the hatred of nurses and doctors?  Do you really see Doctors and nurses as uncaring and unprofessional?    Have you ever spent 12 hours at the bedside of a good friend or co-worker providing their care and taking care of the family members.  Chances are you have not seen what nurses do.  Nurses are not unprofessional when it comes to death and dying. Howver, they do have more education and training in it and for the amount of death they see, they are taught how to deal with these situations more than some in EMS.
> 
> Reaper can make these comments because his other many posts have shown he has what it takes to do good patient care.



I'm wondering why so many people are thinking in black and white "Paramedics do this, nurses are that way, and doctors think like this" Is there no room for deviation? are all the same? surly there are good and bad of each profession. I think that is clearly illustrated on the forum.


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## rescue99 (Feb 7, 2010)

VentMedic said:


> Why the hatred of nurses and doctors?  Do you really see Doctors and nurses as uncaring and unprofessional?    Have you ever spent 12 hours at the bedside of a good friend or co-worker providing their care and taking care of the family members.  Chances are you have not seen what nurses do.  Nurses are not unprofessional when it comes to death and dying. Howver, they do have more education and training in it and for the amount of death they see, they are taught how to deal with these situations more than some in EMS.
> 
> Reaper can make these comments because his other many posts have shown he has what it takes to do good patient care.



Are we really gonna do this? Seriously? Maybe you'd like to check my employment records Vent? Perhaps you need medical records?? I don't know...what is it that drives angry people? For some odd reason I've been the target of hostile outbursts a little too often so please, find another target for awhile. I am getting somewhat bored with it all. Intractable anger 
is not my thing. 

The fact is; I've worked the floors in cardiac and medical step down units as a tech....12 hour shifts no less!! I've worked in the ER many, many times as a Medic as a part of our MICU duty. Do I get a cookie now? Let us not forget, I've spent months on end in hospitals as the parent along side some of the sickest kids in the world. I've met and shared space with these parents and their children, not just my own. I've been the bedside caregiver as the wife, the friend, the inlaw and mom. Soooo, let us not do this and call it a day, eh? Unless you've walked the walk as it were.....

Faith and humor are such wonderful gifts yet, so often left out of our lives. Friendly peice of advice?? I for one am confident that being sure of our faith and (or perhaps) a good old fashioned sense of humor would really do us all some good today and everyday. With that being said...:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## mycrofft (Feb 7, 2010)

*Why bring a dead loved one to a scene?*

Read Michael Moore's book.

I had to respond to a suicide by GSW to a fellow Guard member and have treated fellow Guard and sheriff dept members. You just do extra well for them. It changes your relatonship afterward.
Especially the one where our friend had boiling fondue oil on her clothes and we ripped them off of her....:sad:


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## VentMedic (Feb 7, 2010)

rescue99 said:


> Are we really gonna do this? Seriously? Maybe you'd like to check my employment records Vent? Perhaps you need medical records?? I don't know...what is it that drives angry people? For some odd reason I've been the target of hostile outbursts a little too often so please, find another target for awhile. I am getting somewhat bored with it all. Intractable anger
> is not my thing.
> 
> The fact is; *I'*ve worked the floors in cardiac and medical step down units as a tech....12 hour shifts no less!! *I*'ve worked in the ER many, many times as a Medic as a part of our MICU duty. Do *I *get a cookie now? Let us not forget, *I'*ve spent months on end in hospitals as the parent along side some of the sickest kids in the world. *I'*ve met and shared space with these parents and their children, not just my own. *I'*ve been the bedside caregiver as the wife, the friend, the inlaw and mom. Soooo, let us not do this and call it a day, eh? Unless you've walked the walk as it were.....


 
So you have no respect for any of the many professsionals you have worked with or have seen in the hospitals to claim they are uncaring and unprofessional? You are the only one to have ever cared and definitely not the nurses or doctors? You set yourself up for criticism because of your "I" attitude. You also seem to fail to see health care as a team whether it is with your partner or other health care professionals. 



rescue99 said:


> Faith and humor are such wonderful gifts yet, so often left out of our lives. Friendly peice of advice?? I for one am confident that being sure of our faith and (or perhaps) a good old fashioned sense of humor would really do us all some good today and everyday. With that being said...:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


 
Where did I say humor was not important? I agreed that reaper has already proven his attitude towards quality patient care in his posts. 

Now back to the topic. As others have stated, one would hope there are other providers at scene to take over and allow the EMT(P) be a concerned family member rather than having the responsibility of providing the actually medical treatment. No one knows how they will react in an unplanned emergency of a loved one. It can be difficult for the loved ones even when death is expected. 

One should also not take the attitude that others in health care do not care especially the doctors and nurses but that includes EMT(P)s as well even if they are not displaying a lot of emotion each time a patient is dying or dead. A professional stance must be taken to help family members cope and to ensure they get through all the details to go on to the next step for funeral preparations and progressing through their grief. As a health care professional dealing with the death of a family member, one will need to be allowed or to allow themselves to be just a grieving family member and put the patch away for awhile. Again, hopefully there will be others at scene to allow this. If not, the partner may have both the patient and the other EMT(P) to be concerned about and that can be a tall responsibility.


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## mycrofft (Feb 7, 2010)

*If it's all about us, then we lost.*

......................


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## rescue99 (Feb 7, 2010)

:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:





VentMedic said:


> So you have no respect for any of the many professsionals you have worked with or have seen in the hospitals to claim they are uncaring and unprofessional? You are the only one to have ever cared and definitely not the nurses or doctors? You set yourself up for criticism because of your "I" attitude. You also seem to fail to see health care as a team whether it is with your partner or other health care professionals.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## VentMedic (Feb 7, 2010)

rescue99 said:


> :deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:


 
Do you want to point out exactly what part of my post is a dead horse?

Do you not believe this topic should be discussed?


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## rescue99 (Feb 7, 2010)

VentMedic said:


> Do you want to point out exactly what part of my post is a dead horse?
> 
> Do you not believe this topic should be discussed?



I believe such displaced anger is not normal nor healthy on so many levels, yes. Speak only for yourself and of yourself when attempting to tell people what they feel and what they need or experience. Empathy and sympathy is all we have unless those shoes we wear are their's. Since it is difficult to occupy the same shoes and someone else, speak only for yourself....


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## VentMedic (Feb 7, 2010)

rescue99 said:


> I believe such displaced anger is not normal nor healthy on so many levels, yes. Speak only for yourself and of yourself when attempting to tell people what they feel and what they need or experience. Empathy and sympathy is all we have unless those shoes we wear are their's. Since it is difficult to occupy the same shoes and someone else, speak only for yourself....


 
What exactly is wrong with my advice to allow the EMT(P) to be "a family member or loved one" instead of the provider it there are others on scene?

And what do you find fault with my statement here:


> No one knows how they will react in an unplanned emergency of a loved one. It can be difficult for the loved ones even when death is expected.


 
At what part of my post did I say anything about an EMT(P)'s anger about death or tell them how they *should* feel?


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## firetender (Feb 7, 2010)

VentMedic said:


> Reaper can make these comments because his other many posts have shown he has what it takes to do good patient care.





			
				Rescue99 said:
			
		

> Where did I say humor was not important? I agreed that reaper has already proven his attitude towards quality patient care in his posts.



Here's my point.

CARRERA is new. He/she obviously spent time searching through the threads. She/he came across a thread that was old, yet meaningful enough to take a risk, share a deeply personal story, and, within the context of the thread either seek or offer support.

And those who are intimate with the field excuse each other from insensitivity because, by what they SAY in this forum they give good patient care? I know the dynamic, I know how it works in the field, but in this particular case, the little crack was harsh and insensitive and running to the defense of the Cracker kind of defeats the purpose of the forum, does it not? I thought we were here, at least in part, to help each other deal with heavy duty stuff just like this.

But that's not important I guess. I'm probably just blowing smoke out of my behind. It looks like CARRERA kind of disappeared, though. I wonder why? A little feedback could be valuable for all of us from you CARRERA.


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## VentMedic (Feb 7, 2010)

firetender said:


> Here's my point.
> 
> CARRERA is new. He/she obviously spent time searching through the threads. She/he came across a thread that was old, yet meaningful enough to take a risk, share a deeply personal story, and, within the context of the thread either seek or offer support.


 
I don't believe the comment was meant for that person but rather to another made almost two years ago that happened to get quoted.

I do agree that humor should be wisely placed and not directed at the patient or their families and that includes those of the caregivers and their feelings.   I also don't believe that an entire health care profession should be written off an uncaring because they do not always respond in a way that some might think as appropriate.


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## reaper (Feb 7, 2010)

Humor is an important aspect of dealing with death! It was meant as a tension breaker and I am sure the OP is smart enough to see that.

Maybe that is how I would deal with it from my side. So you are saying I would be wrong to deal with it my way? Not everyone is retired and bored. Some of us still deal with this on a daily basis. I am not really worried about what you think. I deal with my Pt's just fine, without your permission!


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## CARRERA (Feb 8, 2010)

firetender said:


> Here's my point.
> 
> It looks like CARRERA kind of disappeared, though. I wonder why? A little feedback could be valuable for all of us from you CARRERA.



I'm a little confused, what kind of feedback? 

Someone posted a while ago in this thread about how it would be especially hard to deal with responding to a call involving their mother and that made me think about my experience.

I have not replied since my last post because I have not been online much this week.


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## firetender (Feb 8, 2010)

CARRERA said:


> I'm a little confused, what kind of feedback?



My bad! Your first entry sparked a comment that I got self-righteous about. That sparked a flurry of stuff and I noticed your absence and got concerned you may have been turned off by the whatevers.


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## firetender (Feb 8, 2010)

reaper said:


> Humor is an important aspect of dealing with death! It was meant as a tension breaker and I am sure the OP is smart enough to see that.
> 
> Maybe that is how I would deal with it from my side. So you are saying I would be wrong to deal with it my way? Not everyone is retired and bored. Some of us still deal with this on a daily basis. I am not really worried about what you think. I deal with my Pt's just fine, without your permission!



You know what, Reaper? I think I may have screwed the Pooch on this one. Since the thread hadn't been on view in a while, I assumed your comment was directed to CARRERA's entry because that one put the thread back on the radar screen. I just re-read the whole thread to realize that's something I originally did NOT do...I just picked it up from CARRERA'S new entry.

If you responded to the Original Post (as someone suggested), then I really have my head up my...and apologize because I EASILY could have responded the same as you to it because it was neither specific nor personal. 

I misinterpreted your intent, Reaper, and that was not fair. I'm aware of your contribution to this site and its people and you deserve better.


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## reaper (Feb 9, 2010)

No problem. We all miss posts once in a while.


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## MDewell (Feb 10, 2010)

I look at the whole topic a bit differently...although I haven't become an EMT yet, I'm pretty sure my adrenaline would kick in and I would do everything I could...however, if they did die in my transport, I would probably question every stinkin' move I did...now, fast foward to 20 years from now...it would probably just be another day on the job...it's a part of life.


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## MedicMeJJB (Feb 15, 2010)

This actually happened to my cousin, who is an EMT/FF in our hometown. We do live in a rural area and he was the first of the only 2 ambulances in the area, to arrive on scene. It was for an MVC (rollover), it was night and in the middle of a cornfield. He didn't recognize the vehicle, but the other FF's found identification of the DOA driver, and it was my cousin's brother. I don't think he has really ever gotten over this, but he is still a FF/EMT, he didn't get out of the profession, nor did he leave the hometown dept.


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## Two-Speed (Feb 18, 2010)

First time I performed. CPR was with a bvm on my friends grandfather  who had been down. 25 min before 911 was called. Family was all around and my friend wound up seeing her cyanosed grandad. It wasn't pleasant.


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## hreeves877 (Feb 20, 2010)

About 6 months after I got my basic cert, I was called for an unknown problem.  We were eating dinner and I wasn't driving, so I didn't pay attention to the address.  It wasn't until we pulled in the driveway that I realized it was my grandparents house.  I worked a code on my grandfather that night.  All the while having to look at my mom and grandmother standing there looking to me for answers.  I will never forget hearing my mom say to my grandmother, "Don't worry, Heather will make everything okay."  I knew nothing was going to be okay.  After the initial shock of everything, I went into work mode.  I treated my patient and dealt with the family just like I would have any other patient and any other family.  It wasn't until we were at the hospital and my chief showed up to take my spot on the rig that everything hit me.  I worked as much as possible for weeks after that, just trying to focus on something else.  Still to this day, certain dispatches get to me, certain patients, etc.  But the way I have come to look at it is, I know I did my best on that call.  I know I cared.  Could I say the same about some other medic or emt?  Maybe, maybe not.  Bottom line is, I know he got the best care, and I know that for a fact.


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## Anthony (Mar 19, 2010)

I live in a small town and i know quite a few people. I have really thought about going to a different county to work. Just got my license a month ago and have not made up my mind yet. The hospital i am wanting to work for has good insurance so that will make up for the lack of money. On the other hand i dont know how i will handle coming up to a scene where it is a loved one or even someone i've known my whole life. It will be hard. I was told in class to stay strong then break down. i do know one county i am thinking about only has a driver and medic. Sometimes they have two medics on board but rarely. I want to thank everyone for there insight. I was going to ask the same question until i came upon it.


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## Seaglass (Mar 19, 2010)

Anthony said:


> I live in a small town and i know quite a few people. I have really thought about going to a different county to work.



That's what I've done, and it's worked out well so far, although it was far from the only reason I decided not to work in my own county. I figure I'll get a critical patient I know eventually, though. I've had non-critical patients and bystanders I knew a couple times now.


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