# Perhaps paramedic school isn't for you



## owl (Oct 3, 2012)

If you are considering entering paramedic school for the sole purpose of thinking it will give you the advantage of getting into nursing, PA or medical school, I urge you to think twice before enrolling.

 Why should we choose you over a student who wants to become a career paramedic? 

 Why should a career EMS department hire you, knowing that you will leave in 4-5 years?

 What commitment will you have to that department if you are busy trying to get into another school?

 If you have a tough time answering these questions, please leave the spots open for the students that want to be paramedics.

 As a paramedic, instructor and preceptor, the one comment that amuses me is "I can't imagine working on an ambulance as a career."
  Why did you become a paramedic in the first place? Why did you enroll in paramedic school? Why would I want someone taking care of the ones I love and care about with that attitude? 

 I'm not knocking nurses or docs who at one time where paramedics. The ones I have worked with all LOVED being a paramedic. As a matter of fact, I spoke with a medical director who still works as a paramedic a few times a month.


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## firecoins (Oct 3, 2012)

Keeping a medic for 4 or 5 years probably isn't seen as a negative around here. That's about the length of an EMS career considering the other allied health field make 2x without the abuse on the body.


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## VFlutter (Oct 3, 2012)

owl said:


> If you are considering entering paramedic school for the sole purpose of thinking it will give you the advantage of getting into nursing, PA or medical school, I urge you to think twice before enrolling.
> 
> Why should we choose you over a student who wants to become a career paramedic?



I can understand your point and appreciate the fact that you feel so passionately about your profession. That kind of professional pride is what EMS needs. In a perfect world it would be great if every EMS student went in with the intention of making this a life long career. However this is not a perfect world and EMS really is not that promising for an actual career.  

As long as EMT/Medic stays an easily obtainable certification then people will use it as a stepping stone for bigger and better things. Many people do go into EMS knowing that one day they will move on but the vast majority do not realize this until they have worked and seen the flaws for themselves. 

What would EMS be like if schools would only accept students who signed a contract to work for 5 years? Do you think this would improve EMS? Would the quality of medics be better? 

What would this do to the relationship between professions? If I was never allowed into EMS because I was in nursing school then I would be a much different nurse, for the worse. I would just look at EMS as those ambulance drives bringing me a patient. Are the many RNs, RTs, MDs not better because of their experience in EMS? You want to end that?

What does EMS have to offer that will keep the best and brightest in the profession? If you want to take students solely on their desire to be a lifelong medic than good luck. You will just be adding fuel to the "Too smart to be a paramedic" fire.


Instead of focusing on excluding people and trying to keep people in this low quality EMS system focus on improving the system, through increased education and standards, so that people have a reason to stay.

In the words of Mark Walberg "i'm a peacock you gotta let me fly". And unfortunately there is no room for me to fly in EMS, im just too damn colorful


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## Veneficus (Oct 3, 2012)

*I accept your challenge*



owl said:


> If you are considering entering paramedic school for the sole purpose of thinking it will give you the advantage of getting into nursing, PA or medical school, I urge you to think twice before enrolling.



I don't.

Despite my opinion that PAs are the bane of medicine, some programs require healthcare experience prior to being admitted. Being a paramedic offers the experience of having to make independant judgements often without consult. Aside from a handful of very specialized nursing disciplines and physicians, I know of no other healthcare field that does so that has such a range of options both right and wrong to choose from.

Being a medic grants a host of valuable experiences and even skills. (absolutely nobody rivals my skill at putting in an IV) Additionally from being on the low end and working my way up, when I ask people to do things in the hospital, it carries the respect earned from somebody who has actually had to do the grunt work themself. 



owl said:


> Why should we choose you over a student who wants to become a career paramedic?



:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Because you are one of hundreds if not thousands of paramedic programs in the US and if you want to keep your job, you better have full classes regularly. Paramedic programs don't offer enough to be selective.

I even taught at one that almost closed its program when it raised the standards because every paramedic student in the area decided it was easier to go someplace else and not have to spend that much time or do that much work. Enrollment went from 3 classes of 30 people to 1 class of 5 in 1 semester. 

I promise you that your program, no matter how good, isn't too far off of the average.

Additionally, volunteers are often not "career" paramedics. If medic schools only accepted potential career medics, they would never take people who were just going to "volunteer."

Furthermore, dual role fire services look at medic as an addendum cert to firefighting. Similar to hazmat, tech rescue, etc. Using your "career medic" logic, medic schools would have to exclude admission to aspiring dual role firefighters as well and those already in the fire service advancing their education.

Moreover it would also exclude those who would work in austere environments such as expeditions, park rangers, etc, because often their medical prowess augments what they were originally hired for, it is not the sole reason for hiring them. 



owl said:


> Why should a career EMS department hire you, knowing that you will leave in 4-5 years?



The average EMS worker outside of the fire service can be expected to last 3-5 years at any given service. That has been the national average for more than 2 decades. 

Also the workforce culture in the US has changed. HIghly capable people change jobs more often, why work for one agency and get a promotion in 10 years when you could switch agencies and get a higher title and raise?

If you are only hiring people who will be there for longevity, the chances you attract the best employees is greatly diminshed.



owl said:


> What commitment will you have to that department if you are busy trying to get into another school?



Depends on what that department offers you. At one of my medic jobs, not only did they pay me an outstanding salary, they worked my schedule around school, and gave me $1500 a semester in tuition reimbursement for advancing myself. (Because they realized as my education advanced so did my value to them as an employee)

As you might imagine I am still exceedingly proud of and loyal to that organization, even though I no longer work there.

How much comitment do you think you get out of an employee who is "stuck" in their position and looking for another job?

I would wager a lot less.



owl said:


> If you have a tough time answering these questions, please leave the spots open for the students that want to be paramedics



I think I did well.



owl said:


> As a paramedic, instructor and preceptor, the one comment that amuses me is "I can't imagine working on an ambulance as a career."



Among my other titles, I am still a paramedic, EMS instructor, and preceptor. I take special interest in those aspiring to move on to higher levels of healthcare careers. Even when I do not agree with their plans, I do my best to enable them. I also have been around long enough to know EMS is a decent career when you are young and single. Once you start having responsibilities like a family, only the most competative and locale specific agencies offer reasonable compensation for your time. There are simply not enough spots for everyone to get one of these jobs.

The highest paying medic job I had was as an ED tech. It more than doubled my salary from working in one of the most exceptional EMS only agencies in the US. I haven't calculated it, but considering I went from working 50-60 or more hours a week at that EMS agency to 36 hours a week in the hospital ED, it probably more than tripled it.



owl said:


> Why did you become a paramedic in the first place? Why did you enroll in paramedic school? Why would I want someone taking care of the ones I love and care about with that attitude?.



I was forced to become an EMT by the FD I was with in order to keep the job. I later became a paramedic because I seemed to have a special talent for medicine and it helped make me better marketable for a more desirable FD job. I later became an instructor because I was pissed off having to precept what I viewed as low quality grads coming out of medic classes on the rig.  

Why would you want me to take care of your loved ones?

I hope for your and their sake I never do. I often get involved in cases that nobody else can help.



owl said:


> I'm not knocking nurses or docs who at one time where paramedics. The ones I have worked with all LOVED being a paramedic. As a matter of fact, I spoke with a medical director who still works as a paramedic a few times a month.



That is a strange comment considering that your opening stated people aspiring to move on to these careers should not apply and their short term employment was undesirable.


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## sir.shocksalot (Oct 3, 2012)

I actually think if you exclude those that want to be an MD/DO, PA, or RN from EMS you won't be left with many coworkers. It would be awesome if I could call my job a career, but it just isn't.

It's funny that you say "why should we hire you if you'll just leave in 4-5 years?" It seems to be the expectation for many EMS employers. I'm pretty sure most companies want you to leave before you start costing too much money or throw your back out while on the clock.

Believe me I wish I could love this profession, but I need my career to give me more responsibilities as i grow and learn as well as commensurate increases in pay and benefits, but EMS would rather focus on being firefighters or paying for the CEO's new yacht.


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## Christopher (Oct 3, 2012)

owl said:


> Why should we choose you over a student who wants to become a career paramedic?



People have the same gripes about software engineers who leave to go to sourcing/finance/commercial operations/management...I work with lots of them who go to "softer professions" because they're seen as advancement.

Get over it...

Some people use jobs as stepping stones to other jobs.

Some people feel one career better prepares you for other careers.

In the right system, EMS is a wonderful path to career advancement. And yes, that even means outside of paramedicine.

Me? I'm certainly not going to be a career paramedic, but it has nothing to do with the field itself. Paramedicine is not where I am going to be in 10 years, and guess what: that's Ok.

(software is not where I'll be either, would you like to complain about that too?)


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## NYMedic828 (Oct 3, 2012)

Everyone else already summed up my feelings on this post so I will post a picture to save a 1000 words.


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## WTEngel (Oct 3, 2012)

If EMS offered any professional motivation for remaining in the EMS career field, then perhaps it would retain more career professionals?

The problem is not the students entering EMS as a profession, it is the profession that fails to retain them. 

Quite frankly, the nursing, PA, and physician career fields make a more compelling and attractive argument to draw people out of the EMS profession than the profession makes to retain them. It is as simple as that. 

I would not change my decision to become a paramedic. I would also not change my decision to pursue medical school. The experience I received as a paramedic was genuine and beneficial. I am ready to go to the majors now, and my intention is to always be an advocate for EMS standards and education, regardless of what discipline I am in. My influence as a physician is much more powerful than I could hope to have as a paramedic on the future of this profession.


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## Veneficus (Oct 3, 2012)

WTEngel said:


> The problem is not the students entering EMS as a profession, it is the profession that fails to retain them.




This is without a doubt the most accurate statement on this topic I have ever seen.


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## Jambi (Oct 3, 2012)

WTEngel said:


> The problem is not the students entering EMS as a profession, it is the profession that fails to retain them.



QFT :beerchug:


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## KellyBracket (Oct 3, 2012)

I've precepted a few medic students over the years, first as a NREMT-P, and now as an ER doc. There were students who clearly were aiming for med school, many who "just want to get on a fire department," and a number who had NO idea what they were going to do. And there was only one student that I felt had been a waste of my time.

After about about 100 hours of ride time with our service, most of it on my rig, co-workers of this guy found kiddie porn on his work computer. 

So, yeah. Big waste.

Maybe that puts it in perspective?


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## Veneficus (Oct 3, 2012)

KellyBracket said:


> I've precepted a few medic students over the years, first as a NREMT-P, and now as an ER doc. There were students who clearly were aiming for med school, many who "just want to get on a fire department," and a number who had NO idea what they were going to do. And there was only one student that I felt had been a waste of my time.
> 
> After about about 100 hours of ride time with our service, most of it on my rig, co-workers of this guy found kiddie porn on his work computer.
> 
> ...



Just to echo this statement. 

I have had some students who were a major pain in the ***, but never one who was a waste of time.

Sorry, I don't have cool stories about pedophiles.


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## firetender (Oct 3, 2012)

owl said:


> If you are considering entering paramedic school for the sole purpose of thinking it will give you the advantage of getting into nursing, PA or medical school, I urge you to think twice before enrolling.
> 
> Why should we choose you over a student who wants to become a career paramedic?
> 
> As a paramedic, instructor and preceptor...


 
you have to understand that the reality IS that most people entering the field (who take the time to ask the right questions) pretty much anticipate burning out on one thing or another or all of it within about five years.

It's part of the culture of EMS, anticipation is.

Perhaps they are the ones seeing the industry with a sober eye. They sense that they are making the choice to place themselves in a vulnerable position and they still really DO want to do it, yet realize there are better things for their careers and peace of mind than EMS.

Maybe the reality of the industry now is "at least they're willing!"

I'd love to say otherwise but not everyone is like you. I'm not seeking to discourage you. On the contrary, I'm calling on you to use who you are -- your dedication -- to seek to better understand the effects of burnout, and wherever you can help your peers face it and work through it.

Only people like you can change the culture so that burnout is not such a big part of it.


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## Medic97 (Oct 3, 2012)

As an EMS educator I see all kinds of reasons why people initially go into paramedic school, some with visions of being other healthcare providers and some with visions of becoming the next greatest paramedic.  I welcome them all.  I have found that lots of people that come in to paramedic to get somewhere else stay in EMS for a long time.  Kinda the saying "once you get EMS in your blood, you never get it out".


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## BassoonEMT (Oct 3, 2012)

The extent of my interest in medicine stops at the emergency level.  My only hesitance in becoming a medic really is the pay.  I'm not looking to be rich, but well off.  I wouldn't pass up being a medic to be a PA, MD, etc. though "moonlighting" as an RN to offset the bills may be nice...


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## Theo (Oct 8, 2012)

I think the original poster's heart was in the right place with the comments, but as with most things there is a lot of grey area. I sat in medic class beside someone who never had any intention of working in the field. They did it to bridge to RN. The RN waitlist was long but the wasn't a waitlist for bridge students. Was it wrong? Maybe... maybe not. I certainly didn't appreciate how open they were about their intention in front of students that were preparing for being full time paramedics.

Myself? I love my job. I love being a paramedic. However, the longer I work the more interested I have become in definitive medicine. I have the educational background to allow movement. While I love what I do, there may be a time in the next 5-6  years where I move on from pre-hospital medicine. Does that place me in the same category as the person I described above? Not in my opinion.

Until EMS grows to the point where there is more to offer (both professionally and monetarily ), some providers will inevitably be lost to other healthcare fields. What can be done is fostering relationships between these providers and the EMS systems from whence they came. They can still be a valuable asset to EMS even as they leave for other careers.


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## Asclepius911 (Oct 8, 2012)

Devils advocate if you will;

 Paramedics is a career? I became a medic to become a kick a$$ fire fighter so I can be a womanizer and make above average salary with out a the stress of going to school for years. 

-yours truly
- 90% of the youngsters in EMS


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## Veneficus (Oct 8, 2012)

Asclepius911 said:


> Devils advocate if you will;
> 
> Paramedics is a career? I became a medic to become a kick a$$ fire fighter so I can be a womanizer and make above average salary with out a the stress of going to school for years.
> 
> ...



That was my plan...

Then I grew up.


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## Asclepius911 (Oct 8, 2012)

And now you are in the righteous path Mr. Freeman. Now do you see why we are not taken seriously? How many RN DR RT PA or even patients see us in this light? Speaking of, do RN calenders exists? How bout Dr calenders?


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## VFlutter (Oct 8, 2012)

Asclepius911 said:


> And now you are in the righteous path Mr. Freeman. Now do you see why we are not taken seriously? How many RN DR RT PA or even patients see us in this light? Speaking of, do RN calenders exists? How bout Dr calenders?



Of course we do. I was on the hottest male nurses 2012 caleneder.


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## NYMedic828 (Oct 8, 2012)

ChaseZ33 said:


> Of course we do. I was on the hottest male nurses 2012 caleneder.



But what about the calendar?


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## VFlutter (Oct 8, 2012)

NYMedic828 said:


> But what about the calendar?



Smartass.... You know what I meant


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## blachatch (Oct 8, 2012)

Veneficus I think more students would succeed with teachers like you.. Just sayin


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