# Young EMS Personnell



## bmennig

Hello all,
I'm new to the forum so if something like this was posted I apologize. I'm the EMS Capt for a very small town BLS ambulance. We average 400 or so calls a year, all of which are 911 based. I'm 19 years old and I'm taking on my second year as EMS Capt and my 2 Lieutenants are 18 and 19 as well. I was wondering if there are other companies out there that have a young crew like ours. We experience a lot of bashing because of our ages and the types of positions we hold from people who have been involved in EMS for many many years. Their philosophy is that they have been doing this for longer than we've been born so we cant possibly know what were doing and that our patient care cant be good either. We've had no bad reports from hospitals in or our area as far as patient care and the same goes for the ALS providers we work with. It's just very disappointing, for me especially, when you or your crew gets bashed and your the guy responsible for keeping them up to par. I'm looking for any insight on this or if anybody has had a similar problem. Thanks - Brian


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## AJ Hidell

What is the criteria for officer promotion in this organization?

And what does an organization that small need with all these captains and lieutenants anyhow?  Is it just a prestige thing to make them feel special?  Because, while I have no problem whatsoever with young providers, it doesn't appear that this agency is intelligently selecting their leadership.  It is just impossible that these teenagers have the experience or education necessary to competently fulfil leadership positions in the medical profession.  If they are the most capable people in the bunch, then age is not a factor.  I'm just guessing that is not the case though.


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## bmennig

Well, we are the only individuals that want to do it. Our ambulance is oriented with the FD and we are in the same building. Every new person that walks in is roped into going onto the firetruck and the heck with the ambulance. There is no set procedure for having officers age/experience wise other than the basics (EMT/CPR etc.). We have EMS officers so the ambulance has people that supervise it and make sure it's operated per state standards. I hope that clairifys it...


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## 8jimi8

Bud, all you can do is make sure that you are the best provider that you can be and the same for the crew under your command.  Don't take it personally, or just use it as fuel to make yourself better... and don't return the favor when you've been in the business for 5-10 more years!


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## sop

bmennig said:


> Hello all,
> I'm new to the forum so if something like this was posted I apologize. I'm the EMS Capt for a very small town BLS ambulance. We average 400 or so calls a year, all of which are 911 based. I'm 19 years old and I'm taking on my second year as EMS Capt and my 2 Lieutenants are 18 and 19 as well. I was wondering if there are other companies out there that have a young crew like ours. We experience a lot of bashing because of our ages and the types of positions we hold from people who have been involved in EMS for many many years. Their philosophy is that they have been doing this for longer than we've been born so we cant possibly know what were doing and that our patient care cant be good either. We've had no bad reports from hospitals in or our area as far as patient care and the same goes for the ALS providers we work with. It's just very disappointing, for me especially, when you or your crew gets bashed and your the guy responsible for keeping them up to par. I'm looking for any insight on this or if anybody has had a similar problem. Thanks - Brian



There was a television series on The Disney Channel titled " In A Heartbeat". It was based on a real-life EMS service ran by high school students. So yes there are other young EMS companies out there. "Age is just a number." B)


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## EMTinNEPA

If older providers looks down on you for being young, all you can do is prove them wrong.


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## sop

EMTinNEPA said:


> If older providers looks down on you for being young, all you can do is prove them wrong.



I totally agree, but don't break any rules in doing so.


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## Scriptor

Im the youngest guy in the company, and Im only 21.  I get ragged on by some of the senior members for being helpless or whatever.  Its good fun.  I usually crack back by saying Im taking their job. 18-19 year olds working together in one crew sounds risky, if only because the age group is notorious for being less careful, i guess.  Could just be a stereotype you need to work through though.


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## LucidResq

EMS is a whole different beast than SAR, but still..

I served as Lt. of training and ops, and was the EMS officer when I was 17-18. I never had any issues and the fire dept. medics let me run BLS calls and didn't take over or act like jerks when we had a pt. we needed to transfer to them or what not. Then again, we have been working with some of these agencies for over 50 years, and it's always been youth. Due to the cyclical nature of the team, I now hold no rank, but I help instruct. 

Just make sure you hold respect for the experience and wisdom of your elders, and don't just hold it, SHOW it. True, you may be a quality leader and an excellent care provider, but there is SO much to say for someone with the years of experience to really back that up. You will want the same one day, when you're an old fart too. Make sure that you make good use of the resources around you too. Don't get so caught up in your rank that you can't ask for help, support or advice from those who have been doing it longer.


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## Katie Elaine

Hello =)
I'm a 17 yo EMT-B, just got my cert about a month ago. I would be continuing on to get my Intermediate, and to take a FFI course, but because I'm enlisted in the army and leaving in a few months, there is no time for me to take the courses. 
Just last weekend, I ran with a five person crew: The I-tech (In his 50's), A B-tech (17), an MRT (15) and observer (16) and a driver (19). At my department you need to have someone older than 18 to drive the ambulance, and none of the I-techs are underage, but my department has a respect for all its members, no matter the age. In my class, I had more devotion and want for the job than many of the older students, and from what I've heard from my chief and people from other departments, they see more promise in me than many of those other students. (By the way, I don't mean to sound like I'm bragging, just illustrating a point that age doesn't matter.)

I agree that there should be an age limit to some point, but age doesn't matter, as long as you have the drive and knowledge to want to do your job. I've been talked down to, and have been denied from my local department for my age, despite their pleads for more members. Its ridiculous.


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## CAOX3

As long as you handle your responsibilities.  Whats the issue?

I think maybe 18 should be the cut-off.  Anyone younger then that there could be an issue.  We dont need added responsibility on scene of wondering where you are and if your safe.

Not that you need babysitting, I just dont want to explain to your parents how something happened to you on scene. 

Eighteen your an adult, you can make decisions for yourself.


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## curt

20 years old here. Couldn't find a job around here, primarily due to my age, secondarily because everybody's looking for medics, not drivers (The EMT-Is. For some reason, medics around here just do not trust their EMTs for beans). Taking medic school to improve on myself and keep my skills sharp.


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## NEMed2

I know plenty of younger people in EMS, in positions of leadership.  Sometimes, it takes the fresh face & ideas to make the changes we all want.


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## exodus

sop said:


> There was a television series on The Disney Channel titled " In A Heartbeat". It was based on a real-life EMS service ran by high school students. So yes there are other young EMS companies out there. "Age is just a number." B)



I remember watching that show when I was a kid, and thinking I want to do that! Until now though, I didn't remember that memory


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## Tincanfireman

bmennig said:


> We've had no bad reports from hospitals in our area as far as patient care and the same goes for the ALS providers we work with.


 
Let your actions speak louder than the naysayers words. Sounds like you're not letting a lack of years affect your patient care or outcome. Keep fighting for the feedback you're receiving from the ALS units and the hospital/Med Control. The next time you get a dart tossed at you, make sure you let the person know that you are always looking for good people with experience and hand them an application. Best of luck!


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## Ridryder911

exodus said:


> I remember watching that show when I was a kid, and thinking I want to do that! Until now though, I didn't remember that memory



Personally, was trying to forget about that joke of a show and those similar in real life. 

R/r 911


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## Katie Elaine

CAOX3 said:


> As long as you handle your responsibilities.  Whats the issue?
> 
> I think maybe 18 should be the cut-off.  Anyone younger then that there could be an issue.  We dont need added responsibility on scene of wondering where you are and if your safe.
> 
> Not that you need babysitting, I just dont want to explain to your parents how something happened to you on scene.
> 
> Eighteen your an adult, you can make decisions for yourself.



IMHO, if you can take the course, pass all the tests, and prove yourself under observation time, you should be able to join a department. State laws ban underage EMT's from working for pay, and (at least in Connecticut) The Boy Scouts of CT make the volunteer cut off age 15. We have curfews of when we can and cannot work. But I, by no means, (and I speak for all underage members of my department) need constant supervision. I work by the side of my crew, and I don't need watching over, and the Crew-head trying to keep track of me. Also, we need parent permission to work on the department, so our parents understand the risks of their child riding on an ambulance. I also do not need anyone making sure that I am safe. I agree with the 15 cut off age, but there is a certain level of maturity needed to take and pass the class, and we understand that once we are on a call, we need to take that maturity to the next level. And if, for any reason, our chief believes that we are not mature enough to ride, she will discuss the matter with us, with the board, and will remove us from the department until a further date.


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## Sasha

EMT_68W said:


> IMHO, if you can take the course, pass all the tests, and prove yourself under observation time, you should be able to join a department. State laws ban underage EMT's from working for pay, and (at least in Connecticut) The Boy Scouts of CT make the volunteer cut off age 15. We have curfews of when we can and cannot work. But I, by no means, (and I speak for all underage members of my department) need constant supervision. I work by the side of my crew, and I don't need watching over, and the Crew-head trying to keep track of me. Also, we need parent permission to work on the department, so our parents understand the risks of their child riding on an ambulance. I also do not need anyone making sure that I am safe. I agree with the 15 cut off age, but there is a certain level of maturity needed to take and pass the class, and we understand that once we are on a call, we need to take that maturity to the next level. And if, for any reason, our chief believes that we are not mature enough to ride, she will discuss the matter with us, with the board, and will remove us from the department until a further date.




Children really have no place in EMS. Heck some "adults" I've seen don't. It would be very hypocritical of me to think EMTs should be 21 or older, especially considering those who are below that age limit on HERE, most conduct themselves in a mature and professional manner, but ugh, off the boards, it's like a bunch of 5 year olds are riding around on the ambulances.


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## Katie Elaine

Sasha said:


> Children really have no place in EMS. Heck some "adults" I've seen don't. It would be very hypocritical of me to think EMTs should be 21 or older, especially considering those who are below that age limit on HERE, most conduct themselves in a mature and professional manner, but ugh, off the boards, it's like a bunch of 5 year olds are riding around on the ambulances.



I'm a bit offended, but at the same time, you've never ridden a call with me, so you really have no place saying that. 
I agree to a certain degree, there _are_ kids who ride around and don't take anything seriously, but that is a gross generalization. I've been asked by many people in the surrounding area to join their departments, and have been handed applications by paid services to join the service once I hit 18. I've been told I am better than some adult EMT's. So, please, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't make such broad statements. And just to make it clear, I am quite aware I have a lot to learn, but that's why I'm doing this- to learn. But I know quite well what I'm doing, and both on and off shift I present myself in a respectable manner. Yea, I'm a teenager, I act like a teenager behind closed doors, but I stay away from stuff that could get me in trouble (drink, smoke, drugs, etc), and, ESPECIALLY when I'm wearing my colors, I hold myself to the highest degree, and understand that my behavior is expected to reflect that of my Ambulance Association. 

I honestly hope that at some point you can ride with a *good* underage EMT, so that you can see that there are times when age isn't even questioned because he or she works just as hard as any adult EMT would.


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## Sasha

I'm really not concerned with how good you think you are. I stand by the same statement I made before. I don't think children have a place in EMS. Period. Florida does not allow EMTs under the age of 18, and for good reason.

People try to make this a profession. A profession is for adults, not children.


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## Katie Elaine

Yes. That's why I'm enlisted in the US army as a Health Care specialist. Because this is all just a game to me, so I can dance around and ride in back of a truck with big flashy lights on it. It's so much fun, and then I go back to playing with my dollies and playing dress up.

You aren't always right. Age doesn't always matter. I'm sick of people judging that because I am two months shy of 18, it means that I'm not apt to volunteer at an ambulance department. Just so you are aware, there isn't some shining moment the second the clock strikes midnight of my 18th birthday that suddenly I am this smart mature person that can really do a good job. Maturity isn't always dependant on age. I am planning on making this into my profession once I'm done with my four years. So, before you judge me, at least get to know me. Which you won't, because this is an online message board. I'm also sure that the fact I was top of my class of people ranging from 18-50 years old doesn't mean a single thing, and I'm just playing a little game out of this.
It amazes me how close-minded some people are.


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## silver

As Søren Kierkegaard once said "once you label me, you negate me."

By applying labels of "children" to 17 year olds you take everything away from them and create identities that must be kept within the boundaries of those labels. For in 12 months on the anniversary of their birth something miraculous does not happen. The person will still act the same.

Not every person fits in immature and unruly category. Its a case by case situation.


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## Ridryder911

EMT_68W said:


> I'm a bit offended, but at the same time, you've never ridden a call with me, so you really have no place saying that.
> I agree to a certain degree, there _are_ kids who ride around and don't take anything seriously, but that is a gross generalization. I've been asked by many people in the surrounding area to join their departments, and have been handed applications by paid services to join the service once I hit 18. I've been told I am better than some adult EMT's. So, please, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't make such broad statements. And just to make it clear, I am quite aware I have a lot to learn, but that's why I'm doing this- to learn. But I know quite well what I'm doing, and both on and off shift I present myself in a respectable manner. Yea, I'm a teenager, I act like a teenager behind closed doors, but I stay away from stuff that could get me in trouble (drink, smoke, drugs, etc), and, ESPECIALLY when I'm wearing my colors, I hold myself to the highest degree, and understand that my behavior is expected to reflect that of my Ambulance Association.
> 
> I honestly hope that at some point you can ride with a *good* underage EMT, so that you can see that there are times when age isn't even questioned because he or she works just as hard as any adult EMT would.



Really, just how good are you? What life experiences do you bring to the table? Tell me all the experiences you have seen and dealt with in life in your whole 17 years? Sorry, I even realized that when I was a Paramedic at 17 I immediately learned that I had no idea of what life was all about. I acted like a sponge and absorbed as much as I could. Also, realized the other medics that were Vietnam veterans would literally beat the living poop out of me, if I even attempted to think differently. 

Research even scientifically has proven that the brain does not mature for critical thinking skills until the age of 25. Hence one of the reasons insurance corporations can and do charge more for underage drivers. The same reason we have child labor laws and laws protecting under age why? .... Due to lack of maturity and inability to sometimes comprehend, they are protected. 

You are lucky you live where you do, otherwise you would not be able to even have taken the course in most states. At my service the minimum age is 23. Sure, almost anyone can pass the test and the skills....well my pit bull almost have most of those down. It is the critical thinking skills that becomes the difference. What do you do when you have a severe trauma patient, and inability to fly and the nearest trauma center is 25 miles away .. Do you leave and possibly leave your town unprotected or take to the closest which has no trauma capabilities? How do you deal with a father that daughter has been raped? It's such critical thinking skills that one cannot learn in classroom or on paper that is an essential part of the job.

Are you sure your psyche is able to see and process multiple patients or grieving mothers crying over their kids? As was said, its not easy for even older ones. I have seen youth develop PTSD from such programs as Explorers. I was one and a Post advisor that personally witnessed it. At that time, we knew nothing about such and two potential health providers was permanently ruined. Yes, I am quite aware not all youth are alike; but that is not a gamble I am willing to risk or have to deal with. 

Never understood why we should encourage or push kids into this profession? EMS will be there when they have finished college and matured some. Why does this branch of medicine feel that they have to have children exposed and perform emergency care? No where else would we even consider such! Can you imagine of hearing of teenagers working in a surgery suite? Could you imagine the public outcry? Even though it would be much more controlled, safer environment. 

Just because a state has sanctioned or allowed definitely does not make it right. Just look at the curriculum and all the levels EMS has and see what a joke it is. 

You really want to perform EMS? Then focus on your studies, have fun in life and experience the most you can! Find a well credentialed EMS program with great clinical sites, obtain as much exposure to medicine you can. Then when you have reached this then enter the profession. By that time you will be of age and have matured some. You will find you will be an asset and be able to perform much better and be able to make wiser decisions. What's the rush? 

R/r 911


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## BLSBoy

EMT_68W said:


> Yes. That's why I'm enlisted in the US army as a Health Care specialist.  Have you gone to, and graduated from Basic Training, and your Tech School? Because this is all just a game to me, so I can dance around and ride in back of a truck with big flashy lights on it. It's so much fun, and then I go back to playing with my dollies and playing dress up.I'm sure your recruiter would love to know you cross dress and play with dollies
> 
> You aren't always right. Age doesn't always matter. I'm sick of people judging that because I am two months shy of 18, Suck it up, buttercup. I am the youngest medic in our agency. I have to work twice as hard. Its a great educational experience, proving others wrong. Its also a fact of life. Deal with it. it means that I'm not apt to volunteer at an ambulance department. Just so you are aware, there isn't some shining moment the second the clock strikes midnight of my 18th birthday that suddenly I am this smart mature person that can really do a good job. Maturity isn't always dependant on age. I am planning on making this into my profession once I'm done with my four years So, before you judge me, at least get to know me. Which you won't, because this is an online message board. I'm also sure that the fact I was top of my class of people ranging from 18-50 years old doesn't mean a single thing, and I'm just playing a little game out of this.
> It amazes me how close-minded some people are.IT amazes me how defensive people



All that aside, I started off as an Explorer at age 15. I was all ate up with it. But I always had direct supervision, and I was the only one there. 
Realizing you are but a wee peon is the first step. 
Keeping your ego in check is the second. 
Above all, learn!


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## NJN

I believe that a majority of those younger EMTs one may encounter do not belong on an ambulance. That being said, I am 17, I am an EMT, and I do believe that I was at one point one of those people who have no business on an ambulance. I started in EMS as a whacker, heck I had a subscription to galls before I was even a member of a squad. Later I realized that this is a serious business and we come to help those at their weakest moments. Now, I’m getting as many CEUs as I can get, trying to learn as much as I possibly can and trying to make myself the best EMT I can, in order to treat my patients with the best care I can possibly provide. 

Now, I’ve been on crews where the average age was 18.5, and have had medics say we are a very organized crew. I’ve also been on a crew that the average age was mid 30s and it was so disorganized that I got out of there immediately.

All in all, I think that a young EMT should really be dedicated rather than doing this for poops and giggles.

As for the future, I like prehospital care so I’m looking at a carrier as a MICN. And hopefully with hard work and determination I will become, for lack of a better term the second coming of Rid.


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## BLSBoy

NJNewbie196 said:


> As for the future, I like prehospital care so I’m looking at a carrier as a MICN. And hopefully with hard work and determination I will become, for lack of a better term the second coming of Rid.



And move down to the up and coming MICU project known as AtlantiCare?!


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## NJN

BLSBoy said:


> And move down to the up and coming MICU project known as AtlantiCare?!



Lol maybe. Although i do kind of like it up here.


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## BLSBoy

NJNewbie196 said:


> Lol maybe. Although i do kind of like it up here.



We just added a new Satellite ED, and a 4th SCT truck. Its a great time to work here, and it's only going to get better!


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## NJN

I've got 1 year of HS and 4 years of college... maybe later.


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## BLSBoy

NJNewbie196 said:


> I've got 1 year of HS and 4 years of college... maybe later.



The referral dollars can onl go up between now and then..........


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## Katie Elaine

Ridryder911 said:


> Really, just how good are you? What life experiences do you bring to the table? Tell me all the experiences you have seen and dealt with in life in your whole 17 years? Sorry, I even realized that when I was a Paramedic at 17 I immediately learned that I had no idea of what life was all about. I acted like a sponge and absorbed as much as I could. Also, realized the other medics that were Vietnam veterans would literally beat the living poop out of me, if I even attempted to think differently.
> 
> Research even scientifically has proven that the brain does not mature for critical thinking skills until the age of 25. Hence one of the reasons insurance corporations can and do charge more for underage drivers. The same reason we have child labor laws and laws protecting under age why? .... Due to lack of maturity and inability to sometimes comprehend, they are protected.
> 
> You are lucky you live where you do, otherwise you would not be able to even have taken the course in most states. At my service the minimum age is 23. Sure, almost anyone can pass the test and the skills....well my pit bull almost have most of those down. It is the critical thinking skills that becomes the difference. What do you do when you have a severe trauma patient, and inability to fly and the nearest trauma center is 25 miles away .. Do you leave and possibly leave your town unprotected or take to the closest which has no trauma capabilities? How do you deal with a father that daughter has been raped? It's such critical thinking skills that one cannot learn in classroom or on paper that is an essential part of the job.
> 
> Are you sure your psyche is able to see and process multiple patients or grieving mothers crying over their kids? As was said, its not easy for even older ones. I have seen youth develop PTSD from such programs as Explorers. I was one and a Post advisor that personally witnessed it. At that time, we knew nothing about such and two potential health providers was permanently ruined. Yes, I am quite aware not all youth are alike; but that is not a gamble I am willing to risk or have to deal with.
> 
> Never understood why we should encourage or push kids into this profession? EMS will be there when they have finished college and matured some. Why does this branch of medicine feel that they have to have children exposed and perform emergency care? No where else would we even consider such! Can you imagine of hearing of teenagers working in a surgery suite? Could you imagine the public outcry? Even though it would be much more controlled, safer environment.
> 
> Just because a state has sanctioned or allowed definitely does not make it right. Just look at the curriculum and all the levels EMS has and see what a joke it is.
> 
> You really want to perform EMS? Then focus on your studies, have fun in life and experience the most you can! Find a well credentialed EMS program with great clinical sites, obtain as much exposure to medicine you can. Then when you have reached this then enter the profession. By that time you will be of age and have matured some. You will find you will be an asset and be able to perform much better and be able to make wiser decisions. What's the rush?
> 
> R/r 911




Like I said, I have much to learn. And I'm willing to learn. I can gurantee that I have not seen nearly as much as you have, and I have no idea how I will react the first time I see something truly serious. But the same can be said of anyone else of any age. I've dealt with serious tramatic injuries, and dealt with it just fine. (But, like I said, there is so much more that I will be exposed to, but I will face that when the time comes.)

In regards to flying a patient to the nearest trauma center, we are close enough to the hospital that we transport them there and the bird lands directly on the hospital.

I agree with many things you said, but at the same time, things vary person to person. But one thing I disagree with (And PLEASE, no personal attacks, and this is not being said directly to you, Rid,) is that I can go and be a medic in a war zone, and deal with those traumatic injuries, at the age of 18, but many people have an issue with individuals being an EMT-B at the age of 17, or any age under 25 (which seems to be the average age of maturity from what people are saying).

I also think that, because I ride with a rural ambulance, I am not exposed to as much as I would if I were to ride on an urban ambulance service. This also means that, *for the most part,* I am not in the direct line of danger. (and yes, I understand that scene safety is important everywhere, and that just because I am in a rural area means nothing as to the dangers that can present themselves.) And, IMO, I believe that some people are just naturally good in certain fields, and I've found my nack in EMS. I'm trying my hardest to ride with good Intermediates and Paramedics in order to learn as much as possible in the field, because field-work is incomparable to the text-book stuff they spoon-feed you in the class room.

Also *Prays she doesn't sound like a brown-noser* I appreciate being handed a valid argument. It means a lot more to me than someone merely telling me that I'm young and naieve and don't belong any where near EMS. I'm looking to make this a profession, and the only reason I'm not looking for intermediate classes in the near future is because my deployment date is so close.


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## NJN

ahhh. we shall see. how many SEDs do you have, i can only deal with so many.


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## BLSBoy

1 SAED, 1 Level II Trauma Center, 1 Cardiac Cath hospital. 
Plus we do SCT for another hospital, and partially cover another.


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## NJN

BLSBoy said:


> 1 SAED, 1 Level II Trauma Center, 1 Cardiac Cath hospital.
> Plus we do SCT for another hospital, and partially cover another.



I was origionally thinking of going to the U in Newark. Oh and we should get back on topic, my blackberry is going off with every responce. Not fun.


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## Katie Elaine

BLSBoy said:


> All that aside, I started off as an Explorer at age 15. I was all ate up with it. But I always had direct supervision, and I was the only one there.
> Realizing you are but a wee peon is the first step.
> Keeping your ego in check is the second.
> Above all, learn!



First off, I am not a cross-dresser, I'm a 17 year old _girl_. Second, it's called sarcasm. And I don't have an ego, I just believe that a *new* underage EMT deserves as much respect as a *new* adult EMT. Everyone needs to earn the respect of those higher up. I don't expect the EMTs/Paramedics around me to be amazed with me and respect me, but I do expect them to give me a chance. And I don't deserve to be told that I don't deserve my certification because I am underage.


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## bmennig

Well, I appreciate the responses guys and girls. I guess in a generalization of the posts it all depends on who you talk to. I understand all your points and they are all certainly valid. My crew understands the role of an officer and what's expected out of them. We do the best we can and honestly we feel very honored that we have the opportunity to run a volunteer ambulance. Around our area all the EMS Capt's are Paramedics + so to be up on the management level with them is a great honor for us. We have member's of our dept that have been EMT's for 15+ years as well as members that have been medics since the 80's and they help us out with gaining experience as best they can. I know individuals our age typically are inmature and shouldn't be in an ambulance. You really need to have a good head on your shoulders to do the job we do. The primary problem with our area is the fact that we have nobody around here to get ambulances out. 98% of them are based in the fire dept and have very limited crews. With execption to ALS trucks and the City of Scranton's Fire dept, we're all volunteers, and as some of you know, it's a rapidly dying breed. When people come around and want to join because they want to be EMT's, their held onto like Gold and get burnt out because of it. It also comes down to politics within a small town that angers people. I'll tell you right now, the area that we cover is rural and 9 out of 10 calls are simple BLS or moderate ALS. We don't get calls that big cities get, therefore we aren't going to be the most experienced. In order for somebody new to learn around here it takes years. Like I said, I appreciate the responses and I guess we have to duke it out with what were going through and impress the heck out them!!


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## EMTinNEPA

EMT_68W said:


> First off, I am not a cross-dresser, I'm a 17 year old _girl_. Second, it's called sarcasm. And I don't have an ego, I just believe that a *new* underage EMT deserves as much respect as a *new* adult EMT. Everyone needs to earn the respect of those higher up. I don't expect the EMTs/Paramedics around me to be amazed with me and respect me, but I do expect them to give me a chance. And I don't deserve to be told that I don't deserve my certification because I am underage.



It's not a matter of _deserving_, it's a matter of what makes sense.  This is yet another fault of associating fire with EMS.  Fire department has junior members, why can't EMS?  Can you actually fulfilled manpower with the ambulance?  I wouldn't want a 17 year old taking care of me.

The bottom line is that EMS is a _*PROFESSION, NOT A HOBBY*_.  How many 17 year olds do you know with a profession or a career?  There will be plenty of time to start a _career_ in this _profession_ when you grow up.

I'm not doubting your competency as a provider.  I _am_ doubting that you want to make this field your career when you can't have seen much, since you can't even legally be on an ambulance at this point (except as an observer).


----------



## CAOX3

EMT_68W said:


> IMHO, if you can take the course, pass all the tests, and prove yourself under observation time, you should be able to join a department. State laws ban underage EMT's from working for pay, and (at least in Connecticut) The Boy Scouts of CT make the volunteer cut off age 15. We have curfews of when we can and cannot work. *But I, by no means, (and I speak for all underage members of my department) need constant supervision.* I work by the side of my crew, and I don't need watching over, and the Crew-head trying to keep track of me. *Also, we need parent permission to work on the department, so our parents understand the risks of their child riding on an ambulance.* I also do not need anyone making sure that I am safe. *I agree with the 15 cut off age, but there is a certain level of maturity needed to take and pass the class, and we understand that once we are on a call, we need to take that maturity to the next level.* And if, for any reason, our chief believes that we are not mature enough to ride, she will discuss the matter with us, with the board, and will remove us from the department until a further date.



Thats your opinion. 

Do your parents work in EMS?  If they dont they couldnt possibly no the risks. If they do they wouldnt allow their 15 y/o to be riding on ambulance.  

You may be capable, but its every other 15y/o that Im worried about.


----------



## whizkid1

Wow that is young age to have that status,but as long as you are qualified more power to you.


----------



## fortsmithman

EMT_68W said:


> First off, I am not a cross-dresser, I'm a 17 year old _girl_. Second, it's called sarcasm. And I don't have an ego, I just believe that a *new* underage EMT deserves as much respect as a *new* adult EMT. Everyone needs to earn the respect of those higher up. I don't expect the EMTs/Paramedics around me to be amazed with me and respect me, but I do expect them to give me a chance. And I don't deserve to be told that I don't deserve my certification because I am underage.



One of our EMTs is 22 she joined the service when she was 17.  All she could do was pt care she couldn't drive because in the nwt you have to be 18 to get a class 4 dl.  When she joined she became an EMR (equivalent to EMT-B) When she was around 18 she took her EMT(equivalent to EMT-I).  She's good.  

That being said Age should not be factor except if they are really young like 16.  It should be the maturity level.  Some have posted in the forum that the minimum age should be 25.  Well then the military in both Canada and the USA use medics who are at least 17 or 18 because here in Canada the minimum age to enlist is 17 with parental consent.  The age years ago was 16 with parental consent.  As well the age to be a fully sworn police officer is 18 to 19 (depending on the province or territory.  When you're 18 you can become a firefighter.  Police, fire and the military don't require 25 they require at least 18.  On a side note while working as a bouncer I've seen police officers looking young that I almost carded them.  You never no these younger members might surprise you and do a damn fine job.  But that's just my humble opinion.


----------



## fortsmithman

EMTinNEPA said:


> The bottom line is that EMS is a _*PROFESSION, NOT A HOBBY*_.  How many 17 year olds do you know with a profession or a career?  There will be plenty of time to start a _career_ in this _profession_ when you grow up.



I knw a couple of people who joined the armed forces at 17 and guess what they're still in nearly 25 yrs later.  One in infantry the other is a medic.


----------



## Flight-LP

EMT_68W said:


> I agree with many things you said, but at the same time, things vary person to person. But one thing I disagree with (And PLEASE, no personal attacks, and this is not being said directly to you, Rid,) is that I can go and be a medic in a war zone, and deal with those traumatic injuries, at the age of 18, but many people have an issue with individuals being an EMT-B at the age of 17, or any age under 25 (which seems to be the average age of maturity from what people are saying).



Because as a civilian EMT, you have limited medical supervision and are expected to have some basic life experience that will enable you to hopefully make mature, sound decisions.

As a new 68W, you will have direct supervision from multiple people and they will be on you like an arab in an oil field. They will not just cut you loose to save the day. Most likely, if you are deployed to the Middle East, you will be working in a TMC (Troop Medical Center) or CSH (Combat Surgical Hospital). There, you will have little freedom of independent thought. If you are assigned to ambulance duty, you pick up and bring in, with little interventions. You won't see a individual unit position for a while, and you will never be assigned to a forward combat arms unit. So there is a world of difference.

My advice is cut back the ego a bit and keep your mind open during your time at Ft. Sam. I've seen many 68W with previous experience come into the game thinking their **** didn't stink. Don't fall into that trap, learn to be humble and enjoy the experience..................


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## frdude1000

First of all, you adults have no right in saying we are "children playing around on ambulances".  We both have certification, just you may be older than us.  Age is just a number.  It does not dictate ability or maturity.  Second of all, EMS is not just a profession.  Actually, alot of EMS is volunteer, since the pay is some sh*t.  You have never even ran a call with one of us.  Us explorers and providers under 18 are supervised by senior emts/paramedics.  My cert isn't any bit lesser or greater than yours; its equal.  If you treat us with respect and like a valuable member of ems, not a fricken dog, we will respect you adult folks back.  Why put us down to make you feel higher or better than we are?  I respect your belief that ems personnel should be over 18, but it is another thing to say hurtful things about us young guys/gals.


----------



## JPINFV

You know, I wonder if the juniors realize that their overly emotional responses are just confirmations that they're wrong in the age/maturity debate.


----------



## BLSBoy

I'm sorry, everything after 





> First of all, you adults have no right


 was just 





> whine, whine, whine, complain, boo hoo.


----------



## VentMedic

frdude1000 said:


> If you treat us with respect and like a valuable member of ems, not a fricken dog, we will respect you adult folks back.


 
I got to this line and all I can think about is turning you over my knee and giving you a spanking. It won't be the good kind of spanking either but one meant for children who haven't learned the meaning of the word *respect*.


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## Ridryder911

Ironically, the youth do not understand why military uses such age is because they are expandable. It is a horrible fact; but truthfully they do not recruit or use them for their wisdom or maturity rather for their fitness of their body and to strictly follow orders. 

I will challenge most youth to be able to make critical thinking skills. This is why they are usually placed directly under supervision or following SOP's. There is a reason why services are increasing their age limits. One of the reasons the profession is not allowing is because attitudes and inability to rationally think, such reasons and rationale area as described below:




frdude1000 said:


> First of all, you adults have no right in saying we are "children playing around on ambulances".  We both have certification, just you may be older than us.  Age is just a number.  It does not dictate ability or maturity.  Second of all, EMS is not just a profession.  Actually, alot of EMS is volunteer, since the pay is some sh*t.  You have never even ran a call with one of us.  Us explorers and providers under 18 are supervised by senior emts/paramedics.  My cert isn't any bit lesser or greater than yours; its equal.  If you treat us with respect and like a valuable member of ems, not a fricken dog, we will respect you adult folks back.  Why put us down to make you feel higher or better than we are?  I respect your belief that ems personnel should be over 18, but it is another thing to say hurtful things about us young guys/gals.



You are a prime example of what is wrong with EMS. Yes, you! Thanks to your type this is one of the highest harmful attributes in not promoting youth within EMS. As well typical volunteer mentality of not increasing the profession as it should be. Your cert means nothing to me. You passed a first aid class ... so freakin what? 

It is exactly that attitude and the inability to understand the responsibilities of true EMS providers that I and several others are attempting to remove youth programs. We are doing this by increasing insurance requirements limiting their ability to actually be involved in patient care. 

There is no reason to have children providing or being exposed to patient care. Patients deserve adult care and do not need voyeurs while being cared for. We do not need to attract people into our business, we have never had a shortage of applicants to EMS programs; unfortunately rather it is not the appropriate applicants. 

Whenever EMS does mature; we will see that it is a emergency medicine and children should NEVER be involved or exposed to. 

R/r 911


----------



## AJ Hidell

exodus said:


> I remember watching that show when I was a kid, and thinking I want to do that!


If I had seen anything like that as a kid, I probably wouldn't have come into EMS.  I chose EMS because it was something that adults did for a profession.  If it had been presented to me as an after-school kids club, I wouldn't have given it a second thought.



EMT_68W said:


> And I don't deserve to be told that I don't deserve my certification because I am underage.


You deserve the certification.  You just don't deserve any respect for it.


----------



## CAOX3

I dont agree with children being in EMS.  I consider a 15 year old a child.

I also dont agree with people who should be in a role of leadership such as the previous two posters, bashing them for choosing to do something they are interested in.  

There 15 years old and you blaming them for whats wrong with EMS.  Unbelievable.  

And someone else stating they shouldnt be respected for dedicating themselves to something even if it is a first responder class, and seeing it through to completion.  

Have you read the news lately, what are most 15 year olds doing?  Getting drunk, stoned, joining gangs, getting pregnant and failing out of school.  I respect their motivation, even if I dont agree with their service or their parents allowing them to work.

These are the future providers, children now, adults later that will lead EMS into the next generation.  You should be educating and encouraging them, not discouraging them.


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## daedalus

Cheese and rice. There is no hope for EMS after all. Looks like I will be going to PA school so that I can be among professional educated adults.


----------



## daedalus

frdude1000 said:


> First of all, you adults have no right in saying we are "children playing around on ambulances".  We both have certification, just you may be older than us.  Age is just a number.  It does not dictate ability or maturity.  Second of all, EMS is not just a profession.  Actually, alot of EMS is volunteer, since the pay is some sh*t.  You have never even ran a call with one of us.  Us explorers and providers under 18 are supervised by senior emts/paramedics.  My cert isn't any bit lesser or greater than yours; its equal.  If you treat us with respect and like a valuable member of ems, not a fricken dog, we will respect you adult folks back.  Why put us down to make you feel higher or better than we are?  I respect your belief that ems personnel should be over 18, but it is another thing to say hurtful things about us young guys/gals.



This post sounds like my 16 year old sister arguing with my mother.


----------



## TransportJockey

frdude1000 said:


> First of all, you adults have no right in saying we are "children playing around on ambulances".  We both have certification, just you may be older than us.  Age is just a number.  It does not dictate ability or maturity.  Second of all, EMS is not just a profession.  Actually, alot of EMS is volunteer, since the pay is some sh*t.  You have never even ran a call with one of us.  Us explorers and providers under 18 are supervised by senior emts/paramedics.  My cert isn't any bit lesser or greater than yours; its equal.  If you treat us with respect and like a valuable member of ems, not a fricken dog, we will respect you adult folks back.  Why put us down to make you feel higher or better than we are?  I respect your belief that ems personnel should be over 18, but it is another thing to say hurtful things about us young guys/gals.


EMS should ONLY be a profession. None of this vollie BS. I am one of the youngest medic students in my class, at 21. And personally I thing that EMS should be a minimum of an AAS to be an EMT-B and a BS to be a medic. That would make you at least 20 to work in the field. I disagree with HS age *kids* working out in the field.


----------



## Veneficus

Perhaps from once being a junior provider, I have a soft spot for them. 

But being an elitist, I would say that I have given more to EMS and the fire service by the time I was 18 than many of the providers I currently see. 

Life experience as a requirement for EMS? That is totally BS. A pretty big load at that. If anyone thinks that most 18 year old have life experience when they just got out of high school, either by dropping out or passing a multiple choice test, I encourage you to come have a look at some of the students I get. Even at 21 years old, I have to spend effort getting them to tuck thier shirt in and not go to a clinical looking like they are wearing a "coed naked ems" shirt trying to pick people up at the clubs.

From personal experience if I would have went in to the FD for ride time and I didn't have a properly presentable uniform, I would have been bounced at any age.

The guts and glory attitude was crushed within weeks, and study, discipline, and dedication to the profession and department were not only encouraged, but demanded. I could learn more "life experience" as well as positive values in a week in a cadet program than 99% can in 4 years of highschool and all the "extra" activities that go with it.

It is programs like these that create the type of providers we want in EMS. Who care about the profession, who know the value of education and not the quickest medic mill route. There is extreme supervision, even more than in any medic or basic class I ever taught. For years, not hours or days. 

Most of US society believes that raising kids is somebody else's problem. I am old, I remember when there were communities. When neighbors helped make kids productive members of society. The idea that everyone will go to college and come out Leonardo Da Vinci, with a braod range of learning and an extreme level of critical thinking they can use is flawed.

Children are much better learners than adults. If you cannot teach a kid, you cannot teach an adult.

Mentoring early and often is what will change EMS into a profession, not simply making educational demands and raising criteria. 

If you are actively campaigning against these activities, you are campaigning against EMS. Put you ego away or do the profession a favor and call it a career.


----------



## EMTinNEPA

frdude1000 said:


> First of all, you adults have no right in saying we are "children playing around on ambulances".  We both have certification, just you may be older than us.  Age is just a number.  It does not dictate ability or maturity.  Second of all, EMS is not just a profession.  Actually, alot of EMS is volunteer, since the pay is some sh*t.  You have never even ran a call with one of us.  Us explorers and providers under 18 are supervised by senior emts/paramedics.  My cert isn't any bit lesser or greater than yours; its equal.  If you treat us with respect and like a valuable member of ems, not a fricken dog, we will respect you adult folks back.  Why put us down to make you feel higher or better than we are?  I respect your belief that ems personnel should be over 18, but it is another thing to say hurtful things about us young guys/gals.



I know a few folks with the same cert as me or even a higher cert than me that I wouldn't let check my dog's pupils.  Age is NOT just a number.  It's an EMPIRICAL MEASUREMENT.  No, it does not always dictate ability or maturity, but the vast majority of the time it does.  I know there is a lot of volunteer EMS.  Unfortunately volunteer EMS companies dropping calls left and right leads to atrocities like little old ladies lying on the floor for an hour waiting for an ambulance to even respond.  THat's why I'm patiently waiting for the Act 95 on Ed Rendell's desk to get signed into law... then if a volunteer service drops a call, they get a substantial fine (maybe enough to BANKRUPT the service).  Volunteer EMS is an archaic relic from yesteryear and has no place in the present or the future.  This is a profession.  *GET OVER IT!*

You have to *earn* your respect and *prove* that you're a valuable member of EMS before we will consider you worthy of respect or of value.  So far all you've done is complain.  We aren't putting you down to make ourselves feel higher.  Hell, we aren't even putting you down!  We're telling it like it is.  It happens sometimes.  Sometimes it hurts, even though it isn't supposed to.  *GET OVER IT!*

Would you let a child serve as a crewmember on a lifeflight helicopter?  How about a 16 year old nurse?  How about a 16 year old Physician's Assistant, or a 16 year old Doctor?  EMS is a medical service.  The only difference is EMS is out in the world.  Sorry.  THis is a medical profession.  Not a hobby.  Not a club.  Not an activity.  *GET OVER IT!*


----------



## EMTinNEPA

Veneficus said:


> If you are actively campaigning against these activities, you are campaigning against EMS. Put you ego away or do the profession a favor and call it a career.



There is nothing wrong with observers or Explorers programs.  What there _IS_ something wrong with is 16 and 17 year olds thinking they can be a medical professional and a healthcare provider.  Are you under 18 and have an EMT cert?  Fine.  You can't use it until you're 18.  Learn.  Study.  Get education.  But don't think you are the equal of somebody who does this professionally just because you have the same set of post-nominal letters.


----------



## frdude1000

You dont understand.  Im not whining.  Im saying even if you dont agree with young people in ems, you still need to respect that in fact we are part of ems and we are members of EMTLIFE.  How would you like it if I called you an ambulance driver that makes 25,000 a year who didn't go to college.. yada yada yada.  Im pretty sure you wouldnt appreciate it.  And your reasoning doesn't make sense at all.  Most teens in ems dont drink, smoke, get pregnant, etc.  Us in ems are devoted and responsible.  And the excuse that we just "dont belong" in ems is bull crap.  You arn't giving any reasons, just giving a statement/opinion.  I have never been treated any lower than an adult provider by fellow providers and patients.  For example, a few days ago I ran a wrist fracture and seizures, receiving compliments from the patients and adult ems providers.  Most people I have talked to think it is a cool thing we do and very helpful to the community.  Just think about what your saying...


----------



## Ridryder911

EMTinNEPA said:


> There is nothing wrong with observers or Explorers programs.  What there _IS_ something wrong with is 16 and 17 year olds thinking they can be a medical professional and a healthcare provider.  Are you under 18 and have an EMT cert?  Fine.  You can't use it until you're 18.  Learn.  Study.  Get education.  But don't think you are the equal of somebody who does this professionally just because you have the same set of post-nominal letters.



Yes, there is a problem with observing. Do patients have the choice on whom gets to see them or should we be the only health profession that promotes voyerurism? 

Don't understand this nonsense of why we think people have to exposed or work in the field before entering the profession? There have been and are plenty of television shows and documentaries that demonstrate at least some of our profession is. Does one really have to see Grandma not having a bowel movement or that car crash, to decide if they want to be in EMS? No.

We should protesting these programs. Yeah, I was one and even a Post advisor for almost 10 years so I do know what the program is about. Before realizing the harmful effects they may have on the youth and as well, the profession and patients. 

Do the patients get ask immediately if they will allow the cadets/explorer/wanna-bees to assist or view before treatment? Do the parents recognize the possible risks of PTSD, exposure to infectious diseases and then potential liabilities?

I would wager that most families would not be in agreement to place their home up for little Johnny to play medic. 

Is the EMS responsible if any injuries or exposures? For what benefit? All because someday not until 2-5 years later they may choose to enter the profession. 

There is a reason they are not able to work or perform in the hospital setting. 

Part of a profession is acting and demanding to be one, allowing the youth and kids to be within it only restrains and demonstrates we need to mature. 

R/r911


----------



## EMTinNEPA

frdude1000 said:


> And the excuse that we just "dont belong" in ems is bull crap.  You arn't giving any reasons, just giving a statement/opinion.



"5. Learning Identity Versus Identity Diffusion (Fidelity)
During the fifth psychosocial crisis (adolescence, from about 13 or 14 to about 20) the child, now an adolescent, learns how to answer satisfactorily and happily the question of "Who am I?" But even the best - adjusted of adolescents experiences some role identity diffusion: most boys and probably most girls experiment with minor delinquency; rebellion flourishes; self - doubts flood the youngster, and so on."

- http://www.faribault.k1.mn.us/data/...nfoDocs/Ages_and_Stages_Brain_Development.pdf

"Recent research by scientists at the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) has found that the teen brain is not a finished product, but is a work in progress. Until recently most scientists believed that the major "wiring" of the brain was completed by as early as three years of age and that the brain was fully mature by the age of 10 or 12. New findings show that the greatest changes to the parts of the brain that are responsible for functions such as self-control, judgment, emotions, and organization occur between puberty and adulthood. This may help to explain certain teenage behavior that adults can find mystifying,
such as poor decision-making, recklessness, and emotional outbursts."

- http://www.actforyouth.net/documents/may02factsheetadolbraindev.pdf

"In a study aimed at identifying how and when a person's brain reaches adulthood, the scientists have learned that, anatomically, significant changes in brain structure continue after age 18."

""The brain of an 18-year-old college freshman is still far from resembling the brain of someone in their mid-twenties," says Bennett. "When do we reach adulthood? It might be much later than we traditionally think.""

- http://www.dartmouth.edu/~news/releases/2006/02/06.html

How's that?



frdude1000 said:


> You dont understand.  Im not whining.  Im saying even if you dont agree with young people in ems, you still need to respect that in fact we are part of ems and we are members of EMTLIFE.



Respect is *EARNED*.  What have you done to earn our respect?



frdude1000 said:


> Most teens in ems dont drink, smoke, get pregnant, etc.



Teens drink, smoke, and get pregnant.  Do you have empirical evidence that suggests that involvement specifically with EMS decreases this behavior in teenagers?



frdude1000 said:


> How would you like it if I called you an ambulance driver that makes 25,000 a year who didn't go to college.. yada yada yada.



I would point out that the morons who use the term "ambulance driver" would consider you an ambulance driver as well.  And as a teenager, you probably didn't go to college.  I, on the other hand, DID go to college, and I'm continuing my education come fall.  And at least I make $25,000 a year.  Doubt you even get paid to provide emergency medicine (and if you do, you *shouldn't*).

So by comparison...

*Me*
[ ] Not called "ambulance driver"
[x] College
[x] An income from EMS

*You*
[ ] Not called "ambulance driver"
[ ] College
[ ] An income from EMS

Two out of three is a lot better than none.

Nice try though.


----------



## frdude1000

And for emtinnepa, your *wrong*.  Just look at the chart http://ruralhealth.hrsa.gov/pub/FrontierTable.asp.  In most states, their is more volunteer than paid.  It is NOT a profession for alot of caring and dedicated volunteers who put their time into saving others lives.  THat is a stereotype about volunteers, and it is certainly not true about most.  Their is also a stereotype that paid ems providers in private services are lazy crappers who dont care about the patient and just drive them, not actually treating them like a patient.  Im not WHIning.  Im simply asking that people treat the many young ems guys on this fourm with respect and like any other ems provider. 

 "Would you let a child serve as a crewmember on a lifeflight helicopter? How about a 16 year old nurse? How about a 16 year old Physician's Assistant, or a 16 year old Doctor? EMS is a medical service. The only difference is EMS is out in the world. Sorry. THis is a medical profession. Not a hobby. Not a club. Not an activity. GET OVER IT!"

Ok.  My answer is no i wouldnt.  But that is because EMT does not require the skill and educational requirements that these professions do.  Anybody can be an emt.  Hate to break it to you,  but the skills are not hard.  If you read and remember the stuff, and practice, youll know all the stuff.  That is not true for these real PROFESSIONS that you listed because they are not VOLUNTEER at all.

Nice try...

And WHAT THE HELL HAVE YOU DONE TO EARN MY RESPECT?


----------



## EMTinNEPA

frdude1000 said:


> And for emtinnepa, your *wrong*.  Just look at the chart http://ruralhealth.hrsa.gov/pub/FrontierTable.asp.  In most states, their is more volunteer than paid.



Give it time.  Volunteer services with either fade away gracefully or crash and burn.  It's only a matter of time.  Come talk to me in ten years.

Also, for this situation, "there" would be the proper word to use.



frdude1000 said:


> It is NOT a profession for alot of caring and dedicated volunteers who put their time into saving others lives.  THat is a stereotype about volunteers, and it is certainly not true about most.  Their is also a stereotype that paid ems providers in private services are lazy crappers who dont care about the patient and just drive them, not actually treating them like a patient.



Then you got that stereotype by listening to volunteers.  What kind of quality assurance or quality improvement do volunteer services have?  Paid private services can do this because they can make such things mandatory.  Peoples' livelihoods are resting on the quality of their care.  With vollie services, there is no such thing.



frdude1000 said:


> Im not WHIning.



Yes, you are.



frdude1000 said:


> Im simply asking that people treat the many young ems guys on this fourm with respect and like any other ems provider.



If you think that every EMS provider treats all other EMS providers with respect then you really _haven't_ been in this field for any length of time, have you?



frdude1000 said:


> Ok.  My answer is no i wouldnt.  But that is because EMT does not require the skill and educational requirements that these professions do.  Anybody can be an emt.  Hate to break it to you,  but the skills are not hard.  If you read and remember the stuff, and practice, youll know all the stuff.  That is not true for these real PROFESSIONS that you listed because they are not VOLUNTEER at all.



And they shouldn't be volunteer because...?  Oh, that's right, they're responsible for peoples' _*health*_.  And *LIVES*.  Sounds like another area of medicine I know...



frdude1000 said:


> And WHAT THE HELL HAVE YOU DONE TO EARN MY RESPECT?



Nothing.  Fortunately, I can sleep just fine at night knowing that I'm competent at my *PROFESSION* without the validation of the respect of a _*child*_.


----------



## Sasha

daedalus said:


> Cheese and rice. There is no hope for EMS after all. Looks like I will be going to PA school so that I can be among professional educated adults.



You mean there's not a junior PA program!?!?!? Darn it!



> It is NOT a profession for alot of caring and dedicated volunteers who put their time into saving others lives.



There are dedicated individuals who have been fighting a long time to make EMS a profession. There are multiple things that inhibit that, and letting CHILDREN into EMS is one of them.



> But that is because EMT does not require the skill and educational requirements that these professions do. Anybody can be an emt. Hate to break it to you, but the skills are not hard. If you read and remember the stuff, and practice, youll know all the stuff. That is not true for these real PROFESSIONS that you listed because they are not VOLUNTEER at all.



And you have just shown your ignorance about the profession. EMT SHOULD require more education than it does. It shouldn't have the "So easy a child can do it!" mentality. You are little more than a boyscout. EMTs should be an extension of a hospital, not a taxi ride to it. But of course, that would require educated adults.



> I have never been treated any lower than an adult provider by fellow providers and patients.



Wow. You must be pretty lucky. I'm 21, although I look quite a bit younger, and I still get the "You guys sent a KID to take care of me?" or "Isn't it past your bed time? Go home to your mother and eat your milk and cookies" before I even open my mouth to say "Hi, my name is Sasha and I'm a paramedic student, why did you call today?"

People want an ADULT taking care of them with their very real medical problems. 

Heck, can you even become a CNA or MA before you reach 18?


----------



## eynonqrs

Well first off, I am glad to see that is young blood that has the heart and soul to do this.  My squad just restarted the junior program.  Young people are the future of EMS. In Pennsylvania you can take the EMT when you are 16, but you can not do any patient care by themselves until you are 18.  We have been graced to get some juniors.  It seems like people again bashing the voulnteers, we are here to work for a common good. Let's figure out how we can all work together, instead of against each other.


----------



## daedalus

eynonqrs said:


> Well first off, I am glad to see that is young blood that has the heart and soul to do this.  My squad just restarted the junior program.  Young people are the future of EMS. In Pennsylvania you can take the EMT when you are 16, but you can not do any patient care by themselves until you are 18.  We have been graced to get some juniors.  It seems like people again bashing the voulnteers, we are here to work for a common good. Let's figure out how we can all work together, instead of against each other.



Only the opinion of someone who gives out their services for free. You must not have a very high opinion of EMS, because if you did, you would charge for your services. Would you go to school to become a real estate agent and sign up for a volly real estate agency?


----------



## Veneficus

Law enforcement has explorer posts, does that make them unprofessional? Perhaps if we lock the kids in the closet they will never get hurt, or scared, or figure out that people get sick and die. It is no more voyeuristic than volunteers in the hospital, career day, or even a clinical. Lets not pretend we don't have 120 hour first aiders tag a long. We even have the MFR gawkers.

I really hate to break it to you guys, EMS is not a medical profession. It would be great if it was but sadly it is not. 

Most EMS is set up as a public safety service, not a health care service. The only way that is going to change is to pass off the values we want to see on younger people before they get corrupted with the fast and easy way.

This idea of educated EMS professionals doesn't exist! You can't compare a RN, MD, PA, RT, or any other healthcare profession to EMS. 

First, EMS is extremely limited in scope. It is rare exception there is a license instead of a certification. Even if you do have a license it means almost nothing except you have a 2 year degree. EMS persons cannot take individul responsibility for their practice.

Second, since a large part of EMS is fire based, it has become nothing more than a patch. A credential like hazmat, extrication, or technical rescue. We have faught the good fight for years and you know what we have acheived? Nothing. We are no better off today as a profession than we were 20 years ago.

National registry is only going to accept degree programs? So what? Nobody needs a registry card. Aside from spending some money every few years, it doesn't really do much. (or anythng at all) From Memphis TN and all around the country, there is an increase in homegrown education for EMS, not less.

You want to be a healthcare provider? Put MD, DO, RT, RN, PA or something similar after your name. If we ever want this to change we have to be able to call a spade a spade and face what EMS is not what we would like to pretend it is. 

Why don't we exclude some more people? We don't seem to like volunteers, fire service EMS, private EMS, or explorers? 

It begs the question what do we like? Who gets to be in the group? College isn't a requirement.  It's like being a carpenter, mason, or any other skilled laborer. Think about that the next time there is an "ALS vs BLS" discussion. 

If you are old enough and "mature" enough to drive a car, go out drinking with your friends, and have sex as a teenager, you are old enough to do something for society and your fellow man.


----------



## Ridryder911

eynonqrs said:


> Well first off, I am glad to see that is young blood that has the heart and soul to do this.  My squad just restarted the junior program.  Young people are the future of EMS. In Pennsylvania you can take the EMT when you are 16, but you can not do any patient care by themselves until you are 18.  We have been graced to get some juniors.  It seems like people again bashing the voulnteers, we are here to work for a common good. Let's figure out how we can all work together, instead of against each other.



Okay, let me see if I can get this right. They can take the course as a child and then not do anything with it unless they are supervised or turn 18? Seriously, what are they going to do for me? Maybe chest compressions or something else a non-trained person could do as well. Now, I am not just responsible for my partner, patient and others; I have to have a tag along? No thanks.. I can do with out. Seriously, more than two in the back in too many and I much rather have my real partner with me and let another MFR/EMT drive back.

Heart and soul bologna... let's call it like it is an adrenaline rush. Put them on strictly transfer non-emergency units and see how many will volunteer? If they were serious and wanted to know about the profession as an EMT level; show them the truth. 

Again, I dare anyone to justify why we have to regress to having youth on and to observe patient care? Do you want your spouse to be observed just because someone thought it would be neat to maybe enter this profession someday? 

Let's suggest to hospitals to do this. Place teenagers in ICU to monitor patients and assist in patient care, heck let's put them in Labor & delivery too, might as well see all of it and then in neonate ICU...NO? You say... "well those are specialized areas, that require professionals".. Exactly, the same as prehospital care if those involved in it would become educated and understand that. 

Sorry, I am diligently working to ban such programs through insurance companies and I am glad to say they are interested. Seeing such as a high liability and risk. We need professionals not children, nothing personal but until we start thinking and acting as such, we will never be considered anything more. 

** I see that most of the posts are originating from PA and only have a few posts to their credit.. wonder if it is not of their own? 
R/r 911


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## daedalus

Sorry, I don't buy it. I have a lot of respect for you vene, but I do not believe children belong in an ambulance. The differing views make us human.


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## CAOX3

We are our own worst enemy.

Everyone is so pre-occupied with what other proffesions think of us.  Do they accept us? Are we considered health care proffesionals or public safety?  Does it matter?

We need to concentrate on doing are job proffesionaly and competently.  Not be so concerned with what everyone else thinks of us.


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## Veneficus

Ridryder911 said:


> Sorry, I am diligently working to ban such programs through insurance companies and I am glad to say they are interested. Seeing such as a high liability and risk. We need professionals not children, nothing personal but until we start thinking and acting as such, we will never be considered anything more.
> 
> R/r 911



Pretending to be a professional seems more like being a poser.

You know here in Europe many start med school at 17, and we have hospital time first year. Medicine has to accept there will always be students, in all areas of healthcare. 

It also sounds very underhanded to go around agencies that want to have such programs by attacking their logistics.

I have to ask, do you do anything that benefits EMS or do you just deride everything that doesn't agree with your point?


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## ea632

I started in a fire based system at 17 working as an EMT now I'm a medic and believe a better one for it. Take what the older guys give you listen, pull the truth from it, and throw the rest away. As far as the age issue welcome to ems and fire that’s what we do... However I hope you are not mistaken in the fact that your thinking your “a young group" and not really inexperienced providers. Experience has its benefits I will suggest finding a seasoned provider to mentor you as an officer. As a young provider and officer your going to be judged the good new is it won’t last your whole life...


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## daedalus

I should point out, I live in an area where professional EMS and Fire rescue exists. I work in Los Angeles at this moment but am making the transition to working in my home area, which I will not name but is obvious to some here who know. 

The agency that runs 911 in my area is a private paid ALS agency that pays well and retains its employees. It focuses on clinical education and not medicare fraud, and it prefers its members have a college education, in fact, you get a increase in salary with a associates, and an even better one if you have a bachelors degree. Its seperate from Fire. Fire maintains BLS engines.


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## eynonqrs

Let me set the record straight here once and for all !

I do have a high opinion of EMS, and I am not just a volunteer, I also work for a paid service.  I have been a volunteer for 17 years and been working for paid services for 11 years, so don't think I don't know what goes on in the world of EMS, I am not stupid.  I know alot of people that do both.  What the bottom line is that some of you see volunteers as threats to your jobs or the way that you get paid.  Is EMS providers underpaid ? I can say I can agree. So are police, fireman, and other public servants.  So I don't want to hear that non sense that volunteers are threats to paid services.  And by the way, I know some 16 and 17 year olds that have a higher level of common sense and maturity than some older people.  GROW UP PEOPLE !


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## EMTinNEPA

Really?  I thought volunteers saw paid services as a threat to their little hobbie.


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## Ridryder911

Veneficus said:


> Pretending to be a professional seems more like being a poser.
> 
> You know here in Europe many start med school at 17, and we have hospital time first year. Medicine has to accept there will always be students, in all areas of healthcare.
> 
> It also sounds very underhanded to go around agencies that want to have such programs by attacking their logistics.
> 
> I have to ask, do you do anything that benefits EMS or do you just deride everything that doesn't agree with your point?



Prove to me the benefits. Show me the statistics and science base evidence that having an observer of being a minor is helpful in outcomes and growth in the industry. We can easily pull up research of the detriments of exposure of high stressful events to those under the age of 21, exposure of death and dying affects to the psyche of those of the minor ages as being detrimental (even movie ratings suggest such). 
I really could care less how they do things in Europe. European medicine has never impressed me as I have worked with residents from there. I don't live there. If I did I would protest it there as well. 

If we want to compare accomplishments in EMS just exactly how many Senate and Legislative movements have you been active on? Nationally or even locally? Let's get to the basics of even how much true field experience do you actually have? Ten years, fifteen, twenty? Have you ever been an EMS administrator or even teach Paramedic courses? Have you ever established EMS in communities and dealt with local governments to fund EMS? Have you ever established regional (multi state) developing State and local EMS Systems? Are you a even an active member of a National, State EMS association, EMS Educators Society that promotes changes? If so, how active are you? 

You described "We are no better off today as a profession than we were 20 years ago"" Exactly where were you twenty years ago?  Were you working in the field then? Did you have to run out of a suburban ambulance and use monitors that had no twelve lead capability that Nationally there was only about 10,000 real Paramedics? Yeah, we used to be able to have 16 year old drive EMS units too. Guess what, they were considered too immature and inexperienced to be able to handle such..but it is okay to allow patient care? How asinine! The only way you know what occurred is by the hear say and reading of other posts. Yes, we are not as advanced as most would like and you want to know why? By those that like to talk and take no action. 

You are spouting off things as facts when in reality they are not. Such as .."_Nobody needs a registry card. Aside from spending some money every few years, it doesn't really do much"._.. Really, want to back up what you state? Actually there are very many states that does require to have and maintain NREMT status. So yes, there are some that do need a Registry card. Also many states license as a Paramedic is just as respected as a license for the RN, P.A. even a Physicians. Again, rhetoric that is not true.  Also do you really know how much scientific research is being performed on EMS a daily basis from the NREMT? That there is more than two full time research fellows that in performing such duties. How do you think all medical professionals became in being? Look at the Osteopathic Physician's. Until about twenty years ago many would not even give them privileges to non-D.O. hospitals even though their programs were longer and had longer residency. 

Your other statement of ... "since _a large part of EMS is fire based, it has become nothing more than a patch_".. I beg to differ. Not every state is largely comprised of Fire EMS. Review the American Ambulance Association records. Many offer EMS as a service but may not perform sole EMS duties such as transports and only provide MFR services.  
I know of Police departments that have EMFR within responding units, should they be classified as EMS also? 

Just because one can have limited privileges such as driving, drinking does not automatically allow one to be prepared to handle all events. Alike I described using the military as an example is a poor one. We all really know why they use the youth, it is not because of their wisdom. 

Just because you want to wash your hands in making EMS a profession does not mean those of us that do take this profession serious ought to. Just because it did not immediately become as we thought it should be we should allow compromises. 

There is a reason those that are really involved in EMS as a profession don't usually bother with reading EMS forums. They consider most that posts as poorly informed participants and really a joke. Ever notice that there are just a few of us that have credentials and experience that take out time to post? Their feeling is why should they bother? 

Again, I state.. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.


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## daedalus

eynonqrs said:


> Let me set the record straight here once and for all !
> 
> I do have a high opinion of EMS, and I am not just a volunteer, I also work for a paid service.  I have been a volunteer for 17 years and been working for paid services for 11 years, so don't think I don't know what goes on in the world of EMS, I am not stupid.  I know alot of people that do both.  What the bottom line is that some of you see volunteers as threats to your jobs or the way that you get paid.  Is EMS providers underpaid ? I can say I can agree. So are police, fireman, and other public servants.  So I don't want to hear that non sense that volunteers are threats to paid services.  And by the way, I know some 16 and 17 year olds that have a higher level of common sense and maturity than some older people.  GROW UP PEOPLE !



So you work against your own salary than. You probably could use a better salary, but by working for another service for free, you shoot yourself in the foot.


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## bmennig

Well evidently us volunteer's, along with observers who want to help people, are just a waste of time. Everybody should be paid which makes you "professional", isn't that correct? Volunteers will never be professional and we just like to go ride in our ambulance and commit "fraud" by providing piss poor patient care and sending a big bill to a patient while enjoying our "hobby". Well, since everybody claims they have the answer on here, what's your plan for a hicktown ambulance that doesn't have enough funding to pay so called "professionals", much less the call volume and a municipality that doesn't have enough money to buy an adaqute snow plow truck? combine together? is that the solution? That won't work either. We've tried, we've discussed, and we got the shaft by the local governments and old tradition. You people can give me all the reasons in the book why basic EMT's suck and why you guys are the best but as far as I'm concerned you don't live here and you don't know what it's like. All I wanted from this was an opinion, which I got, and it fries me to see you reem people out for voicing their opinions. And Ridryder911, if your so impressive as you say you are, we should be hearing about you on the national news. 

your quote of...



> There is a reason those that are really involved in EMS as a profession don't usually bother with reading EMS forums. They consider most that posts as poorly informed participants and really a joke. Ever notice that there are just a few of us that have credentials and experience that take out time to post? Their feeling is why should they bother?



is pretty ironic since you seem to be the cat's a$$ when it comes to experience and credentials


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## Sasha

> There is a reason those that are really involved in EMS as a profession don't usually bother with reading EMS forums. They consider most that posts as poorly informed participants and really a joke. Ever notice that there are just a few of us that have credentials and experience that take out time to post? Their feeling is why should they bother?



So happy to know you have such a poor opinion of the posters here.


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## daedalus

Lets not let this degenerate. Rid/ryder is not incorrect in his statement. Educated medical professionals usually will have at least an associates degree, and most of the time much higher than that. Not a lot of us here have such degrees. There may be a few, but the sample population of this forum, and most of EMS, are volunteer or paid EMTs with little to no real medical education. There are thousands of educated and knowledgeable Paramedics across the country, but soooo few of them post here.... get where I am going with this? The ratio of properly educated members to volunteer/paid EMTs with a 110 hour cert class is disproportionate. Now, if EMS required college education, most of us here would have one, and there would be fewer volunteers because college education takes money, blood sweat and tears. Not a 110 hour first aid class. The vast majority of those with a full college education would never dream of providing their services for free.


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## fortsmithman

I hope this thread is not being hijacked into a volly vs paid.  If that happens then this thread will probably get locked.  So people let's keep this thread on its original topic.  Please can we do that.


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## Sasha

daedalus said:


> Lets not let this degenerate. Rid/ryder is not incorrect in his statement. Educated medical professionals usually will have at least an associates degree, and most of the time much higher than that. Not a lot of us here have such degrees. There may be a few, but the sample population of this forum, and most of EMS, are volunteer or paid EMTs with little to no real medical education. There are thousands of educated and knowledgeable Paramedics across the country, but soooo few of them post here.... get where I am going with this? The ratio of properly educated members to volunteer/paid EMTs with a 110 hour cert class is disproportionate. Now, if EMS required college education, most of us here would have one, and there would be fewer volunteers because college education takes money, blood sweat and tears. Not a 110 hour first aid class. The vast majority of those with a full college education would never dream of providing their services for free.



You can be "really involved in EMS as a profession" and not still hold the EMS associates degree. There are people here who truly want to get an education, want to be in EMS for the right reasons, and are truly dedicated to the profession. I'm wondering why, if Rid has such a poor opinion of those that frequent this site, why does he continue to do so?


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## bmennig

daedalus I don't disagree, however, a Masters degree from Harvard doesn't mean much if you don't apply it. Applying it takes more than just book reading and clinicals, it's takes repitition and doing it for years as well as building on what you've learned. I have all the respect in the world for people that make the choice to get a college degree in medical/electronics/science etc. I have nothing against them what so ever, however if your going to disrespect what is in place where I live I find that quite rude.

as for fortsmithman... I agree, let's debate, but be curtious and not be demeaning and disrespectful to us "unprofessionals"


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## daedalus

Sasha said:


> You can be "really involved in EMS as a profession" and not still hold the EMS associates degree. There are people here who truly want to get an education, want to be in EMS for the right reasons, and are truly dedicated to the profession. I'm wondering why, if Rid has such a poor opinion of those that frequent this site, why does he continue to do so?



But thats the thing! Rid does not have a low opinion of us! He is telling us that the majority of his colleagues tell him that they do not frequent these forums or others like them because what they perceive as ignorance rampant among its members. Rid is just telling us how it is, so that we can be given the opportunity to prove them wrong. He is here, unlike his colleagues, because he believes in teaching new generations of EMS providers what he knows.


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## daedalus

bmennig said:


> daedalus I don't disagree, however, a Masters degree from Harvard doesn't mean much if you don't apply it. Applying it takes more than just book reading and clinicals, it's takes repitition and doing it for years as well as building on what you've learned. I have all the respect in the world for people that make the choice to get a college degree in medical/electronics/science etc. I have nothing against them what so ever, however if your going to disrespect what is in place where I live I find that quite rude.
> 
> as for fortsmithman... I agree, let's debate, but be curtious and not be demeaning and disrespectful to us "unprofessionals"



To be honest, a Harvard educated, masters degree holding individual is a lot different from the majority of EMT-Bs. 

In fact, a masters degree holding person probably does not know much about crab fishing, which takes real world expiernce and repetition. That fact, however does not make the crab fishers professionals. In fact, whether or not the master's degree holding person can do much of anything, they will be known as a professional because of their level of education.


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## fortsmithman

To me this is what makes a professional if you are paid you are a professional.  If you are not getting paid then you are doing it as a volunteer.


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## bmennig

I'm curious forsmithman... Why does getting paid make you professional?


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## CAOX3

Professionalism has nothing to do with education. 

Who are you to say a crab fisherman isnt professional or a garbage man, mailman, firemen or policemen

If it doesnt require a degree it cant be a profession? 

I think people need to look up the definition of professional,


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## daedalus

Defintions of Professional:

"engaged in a profession or engaging in as a profession or means of livelihood"

"an athlete who plays for pay"

"Professional sports, as opposed to amateur sports, are those in which athletes receive payment for their performance"

"master: an authority qualified to teach apprentices "

"a person engaged in one of the learned professions"

Notice the use of the words: livelihood, payment, master, authority, and learned


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## bmennig

dont forget...

3. A skilled practitioner; an expert.

personally, I think it can be looked at either way


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## CAOX3

daedalus said:


> Defintions of Professional:
> 
> "engaged in a profession or engaging in as a profession or means of livelihood"
> 
> "an athlete who plays for pay"
> 
> "Professional sports, as opposed to amateur sports, are those in which athletes receive payment for their performance"
> 
> "master: an authority qualified to teach apprentices "
> 
> "a person engaged in one of the learned professions"
> 
> Notice the use of the words: livelihood, payment, master, authority, and learned



It seems to lacking one key word EDUCATION.


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## daedalus

education is assumed in master, authority, and the word learned.


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## CAOX3

daedalus said:


> education is assumed in master, authority, and the word learned.



Oh I dont assume......You know what they say.


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## daedalus

CAOX3 said:


> Oh I dont assume......You know what they say.



There is a difference is an assumed guess and a logical progression of fact. 

Learning and education go hand in hand. Also, to be an authority on a matter must first require education in such....


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## CAOX3

daedalus said:


> There is a difference is an assumed guess and a logical progression of fact.
> 
> Learning and education go hand in hand. Also, to be an authority on a matter must first require education in such....



Or experience.....


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## Ridryder911

Very few times do you see someone distinguish in EMS actually take part in EMS forums. Dr. Bledsoe every so often will sneak in some EMS forums, and a few known others but other than that most will not even waste their time with it. 

Truthfully, when I describe my activeness with other professional peers at national and state level meetings I get questioned on why I continue or would even consider continuing? Yes, most of those that really do make the rules and laws EMS forums are usually have the opinion that EMS forums are considered a joke mainly filled with wanna be and poorly educated technicians. Yes, I am that active. I spend at least two to four hours a week either on conference calls or on Internet committee work on National topics and at least the same for local and State development. That is my job. I am a professional. Currently at this time I am reviewing page by page the new Paramedic curriculum/scope to ensure continuity for teaching. As well, reviewing at least three new Paramedic text book series that are to be released this fall covering the new scope. Remember, the new scope has no set objectives as the National wants us to mature and develop lesson plans alike other health care professionals that require formal education to teach. Do you see the trend here? Yes, they are proceeding without asking your opinion. At least I am informing you. 

The reason I continue (yes,I do have thoughts to cease) I feel that it is a way to educate those entering EMS about their own profession. Just read all the b.s. and poor information that is continously dispersed on EMS forums. Rumors and speculations are wildly made without any substance and proof. Something that those in EMS are great to participate in. 

We basically have two divisions of EMS. Similar to nursing. Professional and technical non-professional. Basically in comparison of professional (research, patient care, management) and then the lower level of technical care (CNA, CMA, Nursing Assistants). I at least am attempting to clarify and inform. Ensuring the reason for changes and the rationale of the development. As well, I have met peers and became friends with many. 

Ironically, although we may occasionally disagree on specific topics (as professionals do)you will find those of us that have greater than 15 or even double that in years experience and that have obtained formal education often say the and repeat the same thing. This is not planned or rehearsed. For example Vent, AJ, and a few others basically have to repeat ourselves in different methods to inform most. This can range from clinical points to just the general EMS education. 

When I first entered this site I was chastised harshly by many that posted because it was simply was filled by mainly volunteer and whackers. Little to no discussion was made about patient care and definitely no promotion of increasing EMS education. I have stuck through EMS forums alike some of my peers and actually see some change their education values and change within their professional activities. So the reason I stay is I see some benefits of educating per EMS forums even if it just affects just one person. 

I am not against volunteer EMS when it is a necessity and necessary. Yes, there are some areas that will have to depend upon these wonderful people. I do believe however; the majority of the time that it is not the case or reason. We can review how volunteer lobbying has and continues to try to lower educational standards. How it was volunteers that promoted diluting standards and educational methods. So yes in fact, volunteers has hampered and caused problems within EMS. The same as those that do not want to promote this as a viable profession, when in fact it has been demonstrated that it can be. This has even been in areas without causing financial burden to the citizens alike other public agencies. 

The topic was about youth participating in EMS activities. It is ludicrous for us to acclaim that we want to be a profession yet to promote to have children participate in the delivery of our professional care. Should we have programs to educate the youth or encourage those with interest in EMS? A definite yes! However these should without direct exposure and contact of patients. There is a reason why hospitals do not use youth for direct patient care. They recognize the potential dangers of the psyche, unknown exposures of contaminants such as MRSA, VRSA, HIV, and dangers of the unknown. 

We discuss daily of the dangers of this job. Yet, we want to expose youth to this? Can you say double standards? The risks of physical assault and even the discussion of a Paramedic that was shot and killed. What if this was a junior member instead? What do you tell the family? At least the Paramedic was of age to be able to make an informed and logical decision to be there. It was not solely based upon the notion of this looks neat and I hope to do this some day ideas. It is unfortunate, but one thing that has changed is the environment we work in. It is dangerous. Albeit from bacteria, viral diseases to the crazy, insane attempting to harm or kill us. Even though they may have passed the minimal certification level does this justify us exposing them to such dangers at a great magnitude?

We keep forgetting that patients have a right to privacy. Do we really need more exposure and increasing risks of HIPAA violations? I even cringe at times with formal EMS students and I ask patients if it is alright if those students participate in their care. It is their legal and informed right to be able decide. 

Alike anything else in medicine we have to weigh risks vs. benefits. At this time EMS programs are generally full. In fact there are a lot more EMT's than there are job vacancies so there is not a lacking of those wanting or desire to enter the profession and thus recruitment is not needed. Even if so, should we not be looking at those that could at least meet the minimal requirements of employment? Instead of programs maybe scholarships should be issued for those that are serious about entering into the profession. 

If you gripe about the lack of money, the lack of benefits, and poor working hours, then remember why. We have not became a national standard profession as of yet. Then ask the real reason of why? There are many factors that contribute to this. Particularly those I have addressed. 

R/r 911


----------



## Ridryder911

CAOX3 said:


> Professionalism has nothing to do with education.
> 
> Who are you to say a crab fisherman isnt professional or a garbage man, mailman, firemen or policemen
> 
> If it doesnt require a degree it cant be a profession?
> 
> I think people need to look up the definition of professional,



Actually, most texts define Professional as one that has reached its top of the profession by way of education level, financial means and expertise. 

For example physicians, attorneys, engineers and most of those that require at least the minimum of a degree to enter the work force. In other words one has to have formal education and understanding to enter the work force, one cannot usually proceed higher because they have obtained that level. 

Just look at the want ads. 

Even nursing is considered as a profession. Why? Well we already have discussed that numerous times. 

It is time we quit attempting to disguise the lack of education ever getting us to a professional level. It will never happen until we do change such; it is considered a trade. They can be active within their profession but this does not make them or their trade one.  One can be paid high dollar as a crab fishermen but still are not considered a professional rather it is still a trade or vocation. One can be a Harvard graduate in research and make $20,000 a year and be considered a professional. 

Sorry, did not make the rules just understand them. 

R/r 911


----------



## Veneficus

*a long reply to a respected antagonist. part I*



Ridryder911 said:


> Prove to me the benefits. Show me the statistics and science base evidence that having an observer of being a minor is helpful in outcomes and growth in the industry. We can easily pull up research of the detriments of exposure of high stressful events to those under the age of 21, exposure of death and dying affects to the psyche of those of the minor ages as being detrimental (even movie ratings suggest such).



The benefits? What could be more beneficial to the profession than hand crafting people from one of the most informative times in their development? You can have an army of dedicated professionals in a few generations. We both know that no study demonstrating such benefits exist.

From the education standpoint it has been demonstrated many times that early education yields better results. Look at head start programs. Programs for youth in dysfunctional families, midnight basketball and other programs designed to allow positive interaction in society. Explorer programs and the like are just that; a way to gain knowledge and have something to do other than graffiti the sound barriers. 

Does it benefit the patient? There is no evidence, but you are a big proponent that experience matters.  It may not benefit the patient the explorer is putting the NRB on today, but 10 years down the road, they will have seen more patients in an environment where they are tightly controlled and directed will give them the tools and experience that may help them make better decisions for their own patients.




Ridryder911 said:


> I really could care less how they do things in Europe. European medicine has never impressed me as I have worked with residents from there. I don't live there. If I did I would protest it there as well. .



It is clear you really couldn’t care less how medicine, particularly EMS has succeeded in Europe. What could you possibly learn from a continent where a bachelor’s is required to be an ALS provider? How about a place where you can receive a doctorate in EMS? When you make statements like this, it is evident that you are trying to serve your values, not that of EMS as a whole. There are also explorer type of opportunities here. I have met physicians who have gone to work with both physician parents for as long as they could walk because there is nothing else for the parents to do but bring the kids to work. I doubt many of us will ever measure up to the level of provider they have become. Fortunately your protests are laughed at here. 



Ridryder911 said:


> If we want to compare accomplishments in EMS just exactly how many Senate and Legislative movements have you been active on? Nationally or even locally? (cut for brevity)



As for accomplishments, I have no intention of getting into a resume pissing contest here. But I stay involved both locally and internationally in EMS. I am also a part time educator. (I guess from hours I might be able to call it full time, but I think that calling my 3 months a year full time as a teacher would grossly overstate my educational involvement) I have also served on administrative committees from protocol to safety. I will spare the board any further discussion here, but there are many groups trying to advance EMS, neither of us could possibly be involved with all of them. 



Ridryder911 said:


> You described "We are no better off today as a profession than we were 20 years ago"" Exactly where were you twenty years ago?  Were you working in the field then? Did you have to run out of a suburban ambulance and use monitors that had no twelve lead capability that Nationally there was only about 10,000 real Paramedics? Yeah, we used to be able to have 16 year old drive EMS units too. Guess what, they were considered too immature and inexperienced to be able to handle such..but it is okay to allow patient care? How asinine! The only way you know what occurred is by the hear say and reading of other posts. Yes, we are not as advanced as most would like and you want to know why? By those that like to talk and take no action.



Umm, I remember life pack 5s and 12 leads were not even a distant dream. Are you suggesting I am all talk and no action? Perhaps my action is trying to convince physician that change is needed rather than trying to underhandly impose my views upon others? It is a lot harder to get providers outside of EMS (which will be needed to get any real change) to take interest and action than a "hoorah how great are we EMS group."

As for evidence of PTSD, etc. I am sorry that society is so removed from the harsh realities of life that such conditions exist.(if you would like to discuss it, we could start another thread on it) I do know a fair amount of paleopathology. I also consider evidence or research provided by family value or religiously inclined groups to be more bias and less reliable than that of drug companies. All of the movie ratings and videogame ratings were not based on evidence, but on legislation of moral opinion. It sure is easy to blame something or somebody other than ourselves.


----------



## Veneficus

*part II*



Ridryder911 said:


> You are spouting off things as facts when in reality they are not. Such as .."_Nobody needs a registry card. Aside from spending some money every few years, it doesn't really do much"._.. Really, want to back up what you state? Actually there are very many states that does require to have and maintain NREMT status. So yes, there are some that do need a Registry card. Also many states license as a Paramedic is just as respected as a license for the RN, P.A. even a Physicians. Again, rhetoric that is not true.  Also do you really know how much scientific research is being performed on EMS a daily basis from the NREMT? That there is more than two full time research fellows that in performing such duties. How do you think all medical professionals became in being? Look at the Osteopathic Physician's. Until about twenty years ago many would not even give them privileges to non-D.O. hospitals even though their programs were longer and had longer residency.



NREMT does research, so do a lot of people. But I am not concerned with what they are doing it on until it is published and reviewed. As for states requiring NREMT, like CA? OH? NY? FL? PA? TX? Just because some states are too poor or tiny to fulfill their duty to regulate EMS because they don’t have the money to make and verify a test, doesn’t make needing an NREMT card a requirement. Out of certifications in 7 states over my career, only one required NREMT, and the state of LA is not exactly the poster child for the best way to do things. As for DOs they were recognized as equal to MDs when the Army started using them in WWI (a little earlier than 20 years ago) I am sorry if you live in a place where unfounded bias was the norm 20 years ago or even more recently. You really think a paramedic with a degree is just as respected as an RN or MD? In my experience it is the exception not the rule. Often those medics don’t even have a degree in EMS. Yes, one of my coworkers with a phd in physiology has more respect than a certified medic? Do we really dispute why?



Ridryder911 said:


> Your other statement of ... "since _a large part of EMS is fire based, it has become nothing more than a patch_".. I beg to differ. Not every state is largely comprised of Fire EMS. Review the American Ambulance Association records. Many offer EMS as a service but may not perform sole EMS duties such as transports and only provide MFR services.
> I know of Police departments that have EMFR within responding units, should they be classified as EMS also?



I expect a better argument form you considering that most of the US population (more than 2/3) receives EMS service from fire based EMS. You really want to compare the “medical” interest in the total population of IFT providers? 



Ridryder911 said:


> Just because one can have limited privileges such as driving, drinking does not automatically allow one to be prepared to handle all events. Alike I described using the military as an example is a poor one. We all really know why they use the youth, it is not because of their wisdom.



Drinking and having sex are not exactly privileges extended to teenagers (aka minors)  does’t mean it doesn’t happen. Look at all the BS put out by largely religious groups supporting abstinence only as effective on teen sex. I am afraid “Of Panda’s and people” doesn’t sway my opinion, nor that of any other healthcare professional I have encountered. But my point is learning how to provide medical care to people is far more beneficial to society than a night of hard partying and making babes. Do you dispute that? As for safety, I concede it is dangerous to have teenagers in a medical setting. But I disagree with proper oversight it is any more dangerous than letting them discover on their own. We both agree about the military.



Ridryder911 said:


> Just because you want to wash your hands in making EMS a profession does not mean those of us that do take this profession serious ought to. Just because it did not immediately become as we thought it should be we should allow compromises.



It’s not that I want to wash my hands of it, I have argued long and hard for it. But we have used the same arguments which have gotten little almost no measurable results. We have tried your approach, it doesn’t seem to work. I think a longer term strategy of convincing the next generations by example is viable. Where is your evidence that doesn’t work? To do that we will need to start the education younger than an 18 year old in EMT class.
Nobody is willing to compromise in EMS. It is what got us here. Whether it is international diplomacy or medicine, somebody is eventually going to have to settle for less than all they want to make progress.



Ridryder911 said:


> There is a reason those that are really involved in EMS as a profession don't usually bother with reading EMS forums. They consider most that posts as poorly informed participants and really a joke. Ever notice that there are just a few of us that have credentials and experience that take out time to post? Their feeling is why should they bother?



I am quickly reaching that same conclusion. Hope springs eternal I guess. But professions such as nursing, respiratory, and PAs had to accpet less than all they wanted at some point. What makes EMS so special it should be different?



Ridryder911 said:


> Again, I state.. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.



If you are not willing to compromise, let your personal values interfere with your judgment, and don’t care how other successful places are/have gone about it, then you are the problem. Just the opposite side of the scale as the patch factories. Whether it’s republican vs democrat, capitalism vs socialism, regulation vs non regulation, faith vs. science, law and anarchy. The extremes of all lead only to disaster.


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## daedalus

But what are you two even arguing about? You have more in common than not. about petty things like who used the the old lifepak? It's more personal than professional....  The fact is, ridryder is involved in the leadership of ems and the leadership is moving us forward, like he said, without asking


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## Ridryder911

daedalus said:


> But what are you two even arguing about? You have more in common than not. about petty things like who used the the old lifepak? It's more personal than professional....  The fact is, ridryder is involved in the leadership of ems and the leadership is moving us forward, like he said, without asking



I agree, this is where we will have to professionally agree to disagree. 

I will however keep pursuing to discontinue such programs as I see it harmful for the the patients and profession. I will note that I e-mailed some of the few Insurance Carriers for EMS in regards to this discussion. They are very interested and posts some interesting questions themselves as who is carrying them for liability and as riders if such exemption statements are being performed and enforced? 

I do hope that everyone involved does at least recognize the potential problems. 

R/r 911


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## curt

I'll be among the first to admit that many (not all) teenagers make a habit of committing themselves to offensive degrees of stupidity, even freshly out of my teens myself. That doesn't mean that they're all dumb. There's quite a few I can think of off the top of my head that I'd sooner choose to have my back in a squeeze than some of the later adults I know, generally because I avoid hanging out with the youth I perceive to be incompetents. I suppose we're forced to look at the majority here, but it does bug me that we can't just look at how well they were trained or how well they handle themselves rather than simply saying that because they're not this age, they're total fools.

 As an example, I can't get hired around my area because I'm less than a year too young to be covered by the ambulance service's vehicular insurance, despite the fact that I have a spotless driving record versus most other -OLDER- people's intentional and complete idiocy behind the wheel. My perfect record doesn't amount for a hill of beans, though, because I'm six months too young and clearly don't know what I'm doing. 

 Granted, most youth are more prone to blatant and painful stupidity or incompetence. It's simply unfortunate that those of us that are responsible and in control of ourselves absolutely must be painted with the same brush. I'd be quite pleased if we could take advantage of a more comprehensive system by looking at things that actually matter, such as one's driving record instead of one's age.


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## Veneficus

daedalus said:


> But what are you two even arguing about? You have more in common than not. about petty things like who used the the old lifepak? It's more personal than professional....  The fact is, ridryder is involved in the leadership of ems and the leadership is moving us forward, like he said, without asking



We are arguing about how to go about effecting change.

Inclusive vs. exclusive.


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## eynonqrs

Ridryder911 said:


> Very few times do you see someone distinguish in EMS actually take part in EMS forums. Dr. Bledsoe every so often will sneak in some EMS forums, and a few known others but other than that most will not even waste their time with it.
> 
> Truthfully, when I describe my activeness with other professional peers at national and state level meetings I get questioned on why I continue or would even consider continuing? Yes, most of those that really do make the rules and laws EMS forums are usually have the opinion that EMS forums are considered a joke mainly filled with wanna be and poorly educated technicians. Yes, I am that active. I spend at least two to four hours a week either on conference calls or on Internet committee work on National topics and at least the same for local and State development. That is my job. I am a professional. Currently at this time I am reviewing page by page the new Paramedic curriculum/scope to ensure continuity for teaching. As well, reviewing at least three new Paramedic text book series that are to be released this fall covering the new scope. Remember, the new scope has no set objectives as the National wants us to mature and develop lesson plans alike other health care professionals that require formal education to teach. Do you see the trend here? Yes, they are proceeding without asking your opinion. At least I am informing you.
> 
> The reason I continue (yes,I do have thoughts to cease) I feel that it is a way to educate those entering EMS about their own profession. Just read all the b.s. and poor information that is continously dispersed on EMS forums. Rumors and speculations are wildly made without any substance and proof. Something that those in EMS are great to participate in.
> 
> When I first entered this site I was chastised harshly by many that posted because it was simply was filled by mainly volunteer and whackers. Little to no discussion was made about patient care and definitely no promotion of increasing EMS education. I have stuck through EMS forums alike some of my peers and actually see some change their education values and change within their professional activities. So the reason I stay is I see some benefits of educating per EMS forums even if it just affects just one person.
> 
> I am not against volunteer EMS when it is a necessity and necessary. Yes, there are some areas that will have to depend upon these wonderful people. I do believe however; the majority of the time that it is not the case or reason. We can review how volunteer lobbying has and continues to try to lower educational standards. How it was volunteers that promoted diluting standards and educational methods. So yes in fact, volunteers has hampered and caused problems within EMS. The same as those that do not want to promote this as a viable profession, when in fact it has been demonstrated that it can be. This has even been in areas without causing financial burden to the citizens alike other public agencies.
> 
> The topic was about youth participating in EMS activities. It is ludicrous for us to acclaim that we want to be a profession yet to promote to have children participate in the delivery of our professional care. Should we have programs to educate the youth or encourage those with interest in EMS? A definite yes! However these should without direct exposure and contact of patients. There is a reason why hospitals do not use youth for direct patient care. They recognize the potential dangers of the psyche, unknown exposures of contaminants such as MRSA, VRSA, HIV, and dangers of the unknown.
> 
> We discuss daily of the dangers of this job. Yet, we want to expose youth to this? Can you say double standards? The risks of physical assault and even the discussion of a Paramedic that was shot and killed. What if this was a junior member instead? What do you tell the family? At least the Paramedic was of age to be able to make an informed and logical decision to be there. It was not solely based upon the notion of this looks neat and I hope to do this some day ideas. It is unfortunate, but one thing that has changed is the environment we work in. It is dangerous. Albeit from bacteria, viral diseases to the crazy, insane attempting to harm or kill us. Even though they may have passed the minimal certification level does this justify us exposing them to such dangers at a great magnitude?



I want to know, what is your basis that volunteers lower training standards ? You aren't pulling the wool over my eyes.  I am required to do my con ed, my haz mat, etc., just like the paid services need to do.  My volunteer service also does vehicle rescue, water rescue, and we run a quick response service. A-lot of out members are trained very well. As far as the danger side, yeah we live in a dangerous world, but you can't tell me that there is occupations out there that have minimal risk: EVERY OCCUPATION HAS A RISK. Maybe some not as great as others.  It seems like you are trying to discourage young people in general from even considering EMS.  Let me tell you something else here, volunteer ems are just as professional as paid services. I take offense that is just a rush.  It doesn't matter if you are paid or volunteer, we are here for the community, not for self gratification.  I don't regret any of the 17+ years that I am involved with the volunteer ems.  And exactly what has volunteers caused problems for EMS ? Here we go again. I love how people try to discourage others, it makes me sick.  I was bitten by the EMS bug because my father and uncle ran for a volunteer service when I was a kid.  I got a job for a paid ambulance service because of my experience and because of the reputation of the company.  Before you people continue to bash and discourage, think before you post. Put you self in someone else's shoes.  The areas of where EMS is provided varies due to many factors.


----------



## daedalus

eynonqrs said:


> I want to know, what is your basis that volunteers lower training standards ? You aren't pulling the wool over my eyes.  I am required to do my con ed, my haz mat, etc., just like the paid services need to do.  My volunteer service also does vehicle rescue, water rescue, and we run a quick response service. A-lot of out members are trained very well. As far as the danger side, yeah we live in a dangerous world, but you can't tell me that there is occupations out there that have minimal risk: EVERY OCCUPATION HAS A RISK. Maybe some not as great as others.  It seems like you are trying to discourage young people in general from even considering EMS.  Let me tell you something else here, volunteer ems are just as professional as paid services. I take offense that is just a rush.  It doesn't matter if you are paid or volunteer, we are here for the community, not for self gratification.  I don't regret any of the 17+ years that I am involved with the volunteer ems.  And exactly what has volunteers caused problems for EMS ? Here we go again. I love how people try to discourage others, it makes me sick.  I was bitten by the EMS bug because my father and uncle ran for a volunteer service when I was a kid.  I got a job for a paid ambulance service because of my experience and because of the reputation of the company.  Before you people continue to bash and discourage, think before you post. Put you self in someone else's shoes.  The areas of where EMS is provided varies due to many factors.



YOUR NOT LISTENING! Lol!

I want an associates degree to be entry level, and MANDATORY for practice. College costs money, time, and opportunity cost. There are VERY FEW people that will complete tens of thousands of dollars worth of education, that took them at the very least two years, in which they could not work full time, who will work for free! Since volunteer EMS cannot afford to obtain college level education in emergency medicine, they will advocate against it, there for inflicting wounds IN US ALL.


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## Ridryder911

eynonqrs said:


> I want to know, what is your basis that volunteers lower training standards ? You aren't pulling the wool over my eyes.  I am required to do my con ed, my haz mat, etc., just like the paid services need to do.  My volunteer service also does vehicle rescue, water rescue, and we run a quick response service. A-lot of out members are trained very well. As far as the danger side, yeah we live in a dangerous world, but you can't tell me that there is occupations out there that have minimal risk: EVERY OCCUPATION HAS A RISK. Maybe some not as great as others.  It seems like you are trying to discourage young people in general from even considering EMS.  Let me tell you something else here, volunteer ems are just as professional as paid services. I take offense that is just a rush.  It doesn't matter if you are paid or volunteer, we are here for the community, not for self gratification.  I don't regret any of the 17+ years that I am involved with the volunteer ems.  And exactly what has volunteers caused problems for EMS ? Here we go again. I love how people try to discourage others, it makes me sick.  I was bitten by the EMS bug because my father and uncle ran for a volunteer service when I was a kid.  I got a job for a paid ambulance service because of my experience and because of the reputation of the company.  Before you people continue to bash and discourage, think before you post. Put you self in someone else's shoes.  The areas of where EMS is provided varies due to many factors.



No wool just facts! In 1990 the lobbying from volunteer agencies actually obtained the curriculum to be "watered down" so that in light that recruiting and numbers would not drop down of volunteers. Don't believe me? Ever heard of the Montana studies, or others similar and then compare the depthness of text prior and after 1990? Alike now many the same groups attempted to change the new scope (2008) as they see it would be the death to volunteers as the new EMT courses will require more additional hours and that EMT's attend a required transitional course to maintain their status. Fortunately, there were enough educated professionals to prevent this from happening. We will see how many "dedicated souls" there are left as the course lengthen and become more intense. 

Do you think those of us in EMS that actually take patient care serious er want to continue to utilize and teach from a text book written for basic EMT at 6'th grade reading level? Even worse for Paramedics at a 10'th grade level? How embarrassing that it all can be diluted enough to be included into one text! I can assure you not to blame the educational system associated with academics! We are used to teaching medicine.

Do you really care for medicine enough to obtain a formal education in it? (Please notice I did not say training for there IS a big difference). You are so concerned that you attempted to find another option for the community to see if they could find funding for a professional EMS or just wanted the lights sirens because of tradition. Well, in many places tradition is killing people by not offering quality care. Please explain that to those that aspirated or needed to be cardioverted. 

Does your service offer 24 hour ALS emergency response within 8 minutes without all those lights upon POV's? Or does it offer less care to your community than Johnny & Roy did 30+ years ago? Alike I said, not all volunteer agencies are bad. For those in remote areas; I honor but it those that can and could offer that will not all because of self loathe ego's. They much rather attempt to play medic to feel good about themselves than to actually be sensitive enough to find options to ensure in the public best behalf. 

When I discuss with volunteers, it is amazing that I never find those to volunteer to be a dog catcher, or mow the yard at the courthouse or city hall. Seems to me that if they were really that concerned about the community and their citizens, they would give their time to no matter what the cause might be and even find funding to have a formal EMS. Not just volunteer in the areas with l/s. 

I never said it was not dangerous to any of the persons involved with EMS. Even far more the reason not to have amateurs. Do you train everyday on shift and work enough call volume to maintain those skills? Then if you do; you could afford and need full time....right? 

I have never been against first response companies as being EMT's for that is all they need to be. At this time it nothing more than initial first aid; but don't disguise yourself as E*M*S or being in medicine. As I have always contended MFR have a very important role and should adhere to that role. EMS is about medicine, not rescue, fire suppression or even public safety as NONE of those areas are formally taught within the prescribe scope of education. We are *NOT* public safety; we are MEDICAL.


----------



## eynonqrs

Ridryder911 said:


> Do you think those of us in EMS that actually take patient care serious er want to continue to utilize and teach from a text book written for basic EMT at 6'th grade reading level? Even worse for Paramedics at a 10'th grade level? How embarrassing that it all can be diluted enough to be included into one text! I can assure you not to blame the educational system associated with academics! We are used to teaching medicine.
> 
> Do you really care for medicine enough to obtain a formal education in it? (Please notice I did not say training for there IS a big difference). You are so concerned that you attempted to find another option for the community to see if they could find funding for a professional EMS or just wanted the lights sirens because of tradition. Well, in many places tradition is killing people by not offering quality care. Please explain that to those that aspirated or needed to be cardioverted.
> 
> Does your service offer 24 hour ALS emergency response within 8 minutes without all those lights upon POV's? Or does it offer less care to your community than Johnny & Roy did 30+ years ago? Alike I said, not all volunteer agencies are bad. For those in remote areas; I honor but it those that can and could offer that will not all because of self loathe ego's. They much rather attempt to play medic to feel good about themselves than to actually be sensitive enough to find options to ensure in the public best behalf.
> 
> When I discuss with volunteers, it is amazing that I never find those to volunteer to be a dog catcher, or mow the yard at the courthouse or city hall. Seems to me that if they were really that concerned about the community and their citizens, they would give their time to no matter what the cause might be and even find funding to have a formal EMS. Not just volunteer in the areas with l/s.
> 
> I never said it was not dangerous to any of the persons involved with EMS. Even far more the reason not to have amateurs. Do you train everyday on shift and work enough call volume to maintain those skills? Then if you do; you could afford and need full time....right?
> 
> I have never been against first response companies as being EMT's for that is all they need to be. At this time it nothing more than initial first aid; but don't disguise yourself as E*M*S or being in medicine. As I have always contended MFR have a very important role and should adhere to that role. EMS is about medicine, not rescue, fire suppression or even public safety as NONE of those areas are formally taught within the prescribe scope of education. We are *NOT* public safety; we are MEDICAL.



Well let me answer some questions here:

1) ALS services in my county are provied by private services, and are on scene within 7 to 10 minutes.  Hospitals in our area are only 5 to 15 min away, and we have 5 of them in the county. But here we go again, just beacause we have blue lights on our POV's we are wackers and low lifes.

2) We could not afford to have a 24/7 paid service, our call volume is only about 500 calls per year.  We are a viable service and we do have the staff and resources to provide excellent care to our community.  We are not rookies and we don't kill people. VOLUNTEER OR PAID, WE ARE SERVANT'S TO THE PUBLIC, AND OUR RESPECT FROM THE PUBLIC IS THE WAY THAT WE PRESENT OURSELVES TO THEM ------ IT DOES NOT MATTER VOLUNTEER OR PAID WE ARE PROFESSIONALS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

3) And you betcha, there are people in my squad that do more than just volunteer for the ambulance, they are also volunteer firefighters, volunteer for thier church, are scout leaders, care for the elderly.  We have pride for our community.


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## Sasha

> VOLUNTEER OR PAID, WE ARE SERVANT'S TO THE PUBLIC, AND OUR RESPECT FROM THE PUBLIC IS THE WAY THAT WE PRESENT OURSELVES TO THEM ------ IT DOES NOT MATTER VOLUNTEER OR PAID WE ARE PROFESSIONALS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!



Just a side note, when you type in all caps like that, it is taken as "yelling" and your credibility goes way down. I personally don't take "yellers" seriously.


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## Hockey

Since I'm lazy and uh...lazy

Can someone give me a summary whats going on in this thread?

Thanks


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## Veneficus

Ridryder911 said:


> EMS is about medicine, not rescue, fire suppression or even public safety as NONE of those areas are formally taught within the prescribe scope of education. We are *NOT* public safety; we are MEDICAL.



But by not ascribing to public safety, you preclude EMS providers from public retirement, death and disability benefits.

By constantly excluding EMS you isolate the public good will towards it. I agree with you about what is not taught in the education, but that is part of the change that must be made.

The idea there are "medical" providers who cannot treat all medical problems and not just "emergencies" is absolutely faulty. A highly educated ride to higher levels of care is not worth the money. (as much as I would like a higher level of education)

Not even PAs have a national scope of practice. I am not a legal expert, but I remember learning that those powers not expressed in the constitution for the federal government are delegated to the states. The only loophole I can see is a public safety or public health agency. Unless you are willing to accept a national medical program, EMS cannot have it both ways. 

As well, if you exclude public safety, you are excluding all forms of rescue and you will wind up with providers standing around waiting for patients with other agencies needing to always use some kind of tool or device to justify their budget. Unless you are going to train (not educate) EMS providers to do this. There would be a battle to end all battles to enact that.

There also comes the question of billing and renumeration. If tax dollars support EMS that is a form of socialized medicine if EMS is medical. An inefficent socialized medical system that delivers you to a private medical system? Sounds highly flawed to me. 

Hard choices to be made, but if you exclude "public" and go only with "medical" you could quickly find yourself in a pay to play environment. Places that cannot afford to staff "medical" providers will also strongly reject what you are proposing they lose. If it becomes an all private system, because places cannot afford "medical" and the price that comes with, you also risk losing the levels of burdon of proof that public safety forces bring with it against lawsuits.

The more that is excluded, the harder time you will have trying to convince the public they want to pay for it.


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## Ridryder911

I don't think there has to be an exclusion there could be an addition to the current legislation. Public health departments have such benefits and never are regarded as within the safety division. Their focus is within the medical field although parts of it is in the public domain. They may even have more powers than those within the public safety.

We are much more closer to that realm of service than in the safety division. While reviewing there is no mention of public safety (other than the normal common knowledge) in any of old or new curriculum/scope of education. There is however; chapters of Public Health, even epidemiology and basic statistics, as well as in depths of modes of diseases in the new scope of education. Even the teaching on triage is based upon CDC's triage system not the traditional old rescue and EMS methods. 

Many of the EMS programs have totally removed extrication and rescue from their programs. The reason many EMS does not provide such services and that itself is a speciality. 

Even public health departments and government funded hospitals can be based upon payment structures. Some services fees are based upon salary ranges. However; alike any other medical institution should we not be able to charge for services? Even non-profit, community hospitals can and do charge for services. 

In regards to being a volunteer.. Too many fail to recognize the difference of acting professional and being a professional. I volunteer in within my Church Missionary. I might act professionally however; this does not mean I am a professional missionary. These implications and definitions are far from being closely related to each other.   

R/r911


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## daedalus

Sasha said:


> Just a side note, when you type in all caps like that, it is taken as "yelling" and your credibility goes way down. I personally don't take "yellers" seriously.



Plus five. Caps lock is considered yelling, and is generally bad form.


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## eynonqrs

Ridryder911 said:


> Many of the EMS programs have totally removed extrication and rescue from their programs. The reason many EMS does not provide such services and that itself is a speciality.
> 
> In regards to being a volunteer.. Too many fail to recognize the difference of acting professional and being a professional. I volunteer in within my Church Missionary. I might act professionally however; this does not mean I am a professional missionary. These implications and definitions are far from being closely related to each other.
> 
> R/r911



Well, for my squad that I volunteer with we do hold ourselves to a high standard.  We have by-laws that we enforce to the letter.  Some dosen't make the cut or screws up they get suspended or kicked out (volley term for fired), just like anyone that would be employed. Our community respects us for what we do, our squad has been going for 50+ years.  If we didn't hold up to a standard, then we would not be still going.  I have seen volunteer squads fold due to lack of volunteers, poor management, etc... You need to manage a volunteer company just like a business. It seems like some of you think a volunteer unit is run like a 3 ring circus, it is not. We have guidelines, training requirements, just like a paid service does. Our squad was started as an "Ambulance and Rescue Squad" as we still do today.  Having cross trained members is a wonderful resource, and everyone is on the same page and everything runs smooth.  I can say that I am proud to be a volunteer, to have a blue light, to be a public servant for 17 years and counting.  I plan on doing this until I can't do it.


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## CAOX3

I understand the reasoning behind the grudge against volunteers.

I dont understand the berating of them.  They are street level providers as all of us are. This is an infrastructure problem not a provider problem.  Its easy to state that if they just stopped showing up their communities would just have paid providers is ridiculous.  They will just cover the areas with existent mutual aid which just creates another problem. Stripping a bordering town of its EMS providers is not the answer.  As we all know EMS is time sensitive extending a response time to 20 minutes isn't a rationale or acceptible decision.

I'm sure their standards are just as stringent as paid providers, the fact that they do the same job as me for little or no compensation.  They deserve our respect, would you do it? I dont think I would. I applaud them.


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## Veneficus

Ridryder911 said:


> I don't think there has to be an exclusion there could be an addition to the current legislation. Public health departments have such benefits and never are regarded as within the safety division. Their focus is within the medical field although parts of it is in the public domain. They may even have more powers than those within the public safety.



I think public health is the way to go, but there has been a lot of resistance everytime I have suggested such.



Ridryder911 said:


> We are much more closer to that realm of service than in the safety division. While reviewing there is no mention of public safety (other than the normal common knowledge) in any of old or new curriculum/scope of education. There is however; chapters of Public Health, even epidemiology and basic statistics, as well as in depths of modes of diseases in the new scope of education. Even the teaching on triage is based upon CDC's triage system not the traditional old rescue and EMS methods. .



Sounds great




Ridryder911 said:


> Many of the EMS programs have totally removed extrication and rescue from their programs. The reason many EMS does not provide such services and that itself is a speciality. .



I also agree it is a specialty itself, but since I am a firm believer that the point of rescue is patient care, I would say that the principles of care in an austere environment is core to what would make EMS its own profession.



Ridryder911 said:


> Even public health departments and government funded hospitals can be based upon payment structures. Some services fees are based upon salary ranges. However; alike any other medical institution should we not be able to charge for services? Even non-profit, community hospitals can and do charge for services..



Yes EMS should be able to charge, but the problem is who is going to pay and how much? We know healthcare financing in the US has to change, everyone I speak too agrees that prehospital transport is likely to take a huge cut. Which is why I advocate a public health role for EMS, but the industry itself doesn't seem to want it. Is there a plan to go about changing the culture in already established agencies?


----------



## medic417

eynonqrs said:


> Well let me answer some questions here:
> 
> 
> 2) We could not afford to have a 24/7 paid service, our call volume is only about 500 calls per year.  We are a viable service and we do have the staff and resources to provide excellent care to our community.  We are not rookies and we don't kill people. VOLUNTEER OR PAID, WE ARE SERVANT'S TO THE PUBLIC, AND OUR RESPECT FROM THE PUBLIC IS THE WAY THAT WE PRESENT OURSELVES TO THEM ------ IT DOES NOT MATTER VOLUNTEER OR PAID WE ARE PROFESSIONALS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



500 calls a year is more than enough to require paid 24/7 ALS ambulances.  I am involved with several 24/7 ALS services under 500 calls a year.  The station I am at today is less than 200 calls a year in a poverty stricken rural area.  Number of calls does not justify not paying.  Priorities of the community need to be checked and money would be found.  And we are Pre Hospital Medical Professionals not public servants.


----------



## medic417

bmennig said:


> Hello all,
> I'm new to the forum so if something like this was posted I apologize. I'm the EMS Capt for a very small town BLS ambulance. We average 400 or so calls a year, all of which are 911 based. I'm 19 years old and I'm taking on my second year as EMS Capt and my 2 Lieutenants are 18 and 19 as well. I was wondering if there are other companies out there that have a young crew like ours. We experience a lot of bashing because of our ages and the types of positions we hold from people who have been involved in EMS for many many years. Their philosophy is that they have been doing this for longer than we've been born so we cant possibly know what were doing and that our patient care cant be good either. We've had no bad reports from hospitals in or our area as far as patient care and the same goes for the ALS providers we work with. It's just very disappointing, for me especially, when you or your crew gets bashed and your the guy responsible for keeping them up to par. I'm looking for any insight on this or if anybody has had a similar problem. Thanks - Brian



No need for Capts. Lts etc in such a small service.  If your people are not able to take responsibility to check their ambulances daily and to give proper care they should be fired, not have someone standing around giving orders.  This title crap is not a part of Pre Hospital Medical Professionals but a left over part of fire influence that needs to disappear.  

As to age I think a person needs to be older to be in EMS and when education standards go up we will see minimum ages go up as well.


----------



## Ridryder911

I would like to ask the younger members (<18) of what type of insurance they are covered by? If the organization they belong to have medical malpractice and personal coverage or they assume the organization they are riding for will be covering them? Also, if they are required to have their parents sign a waiver of release while riding? As well, if their parents recognize the potential of litigation in civil suit if they are involved in a case? 

Thanks, 

R/r 911


----------



## NJN

Both of the services I am a member of have malpractice insurance for all certified providers regardless of age as long as they are acting within protocols. 

My parents do realize the potential litigation that can happen as my mother has been an attorney in some malpractice suits.

Waivers of release are required for all riding members.


----------



## daedalus

eynonqrs said:


> Well, for my squad that I volunteer with we do hold ourselves to a high standard.  We have by-laws that we enforce to the letter.  Some dosen't make the cut or screws up they get suspended or kicked out (volley term for fired), just like anyone that would be employed. Our community respects us for what we do, our squad has been going for 50+ years.  If we didn't hold up to a standard, then we would not be still going.  I have seen volunteer squads fold due to lack of volunteers, poor management, etc... You need to manage a volunteer company just like a business. It seems like some of you think a volunteer unit is run like a 3 ring circus, it is not. We have guidelines, training requirements, just like a paid service does. Our squad was started as an "Ambulance and Rescue Squad" as we still do today.  Having cross trained members is a wonderful resource, and everyone is on the same page and everything runs smooth.  I can say that I am proud to be a volunteer, to have a blue light, to be a public servant for 17 years and counting.  I plan on doing this until I can't do it.


Would your squad uphold mandatory college education for those touching patients? If not, the standard is not that high.


----------



## Ridryder911

NJNewbie196 said:


> Both of the services I am a member of have malpractice insurance for all certified providers regardless of age as long as they are acting within protocols.
> 
> My parents do realize the potential litigation that can happen as my mother has been an attorney in some malpractice suits.
> 
> Waivers of release are required for all riding members.



Thanks for your response, I do find it odd they would have malpractice insurance (even more surprised an major Insurance corporation would cover as most Ihave found requires minimum of age 18) and then sign a release? . .

R/r 911


----------



## April992

I absolutly know what you are going through. I have worked in the EMS field for 4 years. I look like I am about 15 years old and am 5"2' (I'm 23). Both the people I work with, either at a new facility or on transfers and pts alike think that I am an "observer" or can't possibly know what I am doing. I even went to the length of colouring my natural blonde hair to dark brown to be taken more seriously in an attempt to look older (it did not work). Although, they generally don't say it to my face you can see it in their eyes. The only thing I can tell you is to prove them wrong. Help them and show them that you know what you're doing. Pts generally won't know how old you are (even if you look young) so take everything with a grain of salt and trudge through it, you'll gain years quickly (and wrinkles) so don't sweat the small stuff! Enjoy your job and continue doing what you do best!


----------



## Shishkabob

Ridryder911 said:


> Thanks for your response, I do find it odd they would have malpractice insurance (even more surprised an major Insurance corporation would cover as most Ihave found requires minimum of age 18) and then sign a release? . .
> 
> R/r 911



Any good lawyer or criminal law professor will tell you that a release means absolutely nothing and can be torn apart quite easily.


Strange, I know, but true.


----------



## eynonqrs

daedalus said:


> Would your squad uphold mandatory college education for those touching patients? If not, the standard is not that high.




I don't understand the reason for getting a college degree. You can have all the fancy letters and numbers after ones name, but common sense is the key here.  And besides, are people going to go to college and come out to get a $10 an hour job ? I don't think so. It seems like some of you will stop at nothing to elimate volunteers and telling young people that don't even waste thier time doing this.  The young people are the future of EMS.  And the volunteers are not going away anytime soon.  You know, our squad has 30+ active members and we are going to be voting on 6 more.  We are grateful that we can provide for our community.  I have made my points.  And for the young officers, good luck to you, and congrats.


----------



## medic417

eynonqrs said:


> I don't understand the reason for getting a college degree. You can have all the fancy letters and numbers after ones name, but common sense is the key here.  And besides, are people going to go to college and come out to get a $10 an hour job ? I don't think so. It seems like some of you will stop at nothing to elimate volunteers and telling young people that don't even waste thier time doing this.  The young people are the future of EMS.  And the volunteers are not going away anytime soon.  You know, our squad has 30+ active members and we are going to be voting on 6 more.  We are grateful that we can provide for our community.  I have made my points.  And for the young officers, good luck to you, and congrats.



If education requirements go up so will pay.  For example see nursing.  They used to be a dime a dozen but they organized upped education and now are getting good pay.   So bad example as to why college is bad idea.  

Now back to the question that was asked would volunteer services oppose requiring college degree to enter EMS?  I think you already said yes based on your response but maybe I misunderstood.


----------



## BLSBoy

eynonqrs said:


> I don't understand the reason for getting a college degree. You can have all the fancy letters and numbers after ones name, but common sense is the key here.  And besides, are people going to go to college and come out to get a $10 an hour job ? I don't think so. It seems like some of you will stop at nothing to elimate volunteers and telling young people that don't even waste thier time doing this.  The young people are the future of EMS.  And the volunteers are not going away anytime soon.  You know, our squad has 30+ active members and we are going to be voting on 6 more.  We are grateful that we can provide for our community.  I have made my points.  And for the young officers, good luck to you, and congrats.



Go back to school for a lesson in supply and demand. 

On second thought, go for economics _and_ spelling.


----------



## silver

eynonqrs said:


> I don't understand the reason for getting a college degree. You can have all the fancy letters and numbers after ones name, but common sense is the key here.  And besides, are people going to go to college and come out to get a $10 an hour job ? I don't think so. It seems like some of you will stop at nothing to elimate volunteers and telling young people that don't even waste thier time doing this.  The young people are the future of EMS.  And the volunteers are not going away anytime soon.  You know, our squad has 30+ active members and we are going to be voting on 6 more.  We are grateful that we can provide for our community.  I have made my points.  And for the young officers, good luck to you, and congrats.



It is possibly so that more people will become educated and have some advanced education.

However I think EMS is stuck in a rock and a hard place right now. Many people want to make a college degree mandatory, however good college programs are few and far between. Once they start meeting a new higher standard (like nursing), I see that not many schools will start programs, because it is hard/expensive to meet the standards. In addition enrollment would be small (just like nursing), because it is hard to meet the standards when you have hundreds enrolled. So they increase selectiveness of the program. Then leading to a shortage of providers since vollies got the boot.

We will see though. Someone will probably come up with a good plan.


----------



## BLSBoy

eynonqrs said:


> It seems like some of you will stop at nothing to elimate volunteers and telling young people that don't even waste thier time doing this.  The young people are the future of EMS.  And the volunteers are not going away anytime soon.  You know, our squad has 30+ active members and we are going to be voting on 6 more.  We are grateful that we can provide for our community.  I have made my points.  And for the young officers, good luck to you, and congrats.



To follow up, yes, some of us WILL stop at nothing to eliminate vollies. 

What other professions have to deal with not only people who want to do it for free, but who have support organizations that lobby legislators to keep the education requirements low, and who refuse to bill for services, which in turn eliminates funding for other agencies!?


----------



## Veneficus

eynonqrs said:


> I don't understand the reason for getting a college degree. You can have all the fancy letters and numbers after ones name, but common sense is the key here.  And besides, are people going to go to college and come out to get a $10 an hour job ? I don't think so. It seems like some of you will stop at nothing to elimate volunteers and telling young people that don't even waste thier time doing this.  The young people are the future of EMS.  And the volunteers are not going away anytime soon.  You know, our squad has 30+ active members and we are going to be voting on 6 more.  We are grateful that we can provide for our community.  I have made my points.  And for the young officers, good luck to you, and congrats.



Once you get to the paramedic level, *in order to be a competent provider* you must be able to make clinical decisions based on knowledge and critical thinking. The current Basic EMT Level is skill based, much like a carpenter or welder. 

Whoever is feeding you the info college is not needed in trying to protect themselves against their own shortcomings.

With an increase in education in western society comes an increase is pay. We value knowledge over labor. 

I do not think volunteers are going away soon. As much as I like the new national curriculum I think it will be a very hard sell. It would be a much better strategy to encourage volunteers to come on board. Again, inclusion vs. exclusion strategy.

It was once said that "common sense is the set of prejudices we aquire before 18"


----------



## BLSBoy

silver said:


> It is possibly so that more people will become educated and have some advanced education.
> 
> However I think EMS is stuck in a rock and a hard place right now. Many people want to make a college degree mandatory, however good college programs are few and far between. Once they start meeting a new higher standard (like nursing), I see that not many schools will start programs, because it is hard/expensive to meet the standards. In addition enrollment would be small (just like nursing), because it is hard to meet the standards when you have hundreds enrolled. So they increase selectiveness of the program. Then leading to a shortage of providers since vollies got the boot.
> 
> We will see though. Someone will probably come up with a good plan.



I think that having *every* person who works on an ambulance needing a degree is unnecessary, and overkill. 
That is akin to dispatching a full box alarm for a trash fire, or sending a battalion of soldiers to secure a single structure. 
Sure, you could always use the extra, but it is prohibitive in the cost/benefit analysis. 

Up the EMT education to 500 hrs of classroom, and 500 of clinical time, and expand their scope of practice to include a few more interventions. 

Medic should be a 2 year degree.

Create a PA position for public heath needs, to eliminate some of the problem callers, or simple things like "I need a new Rx"


----------



## medic417

BLSBoy said:


> Up the EMT education to 500 hrs of classroom, and 500 of clinical time, and expand their scope of practice to include a few more interventions.
> 
> "



500 more hours would not be enough to add new skills.  It would just be enough to to give some basic education behind the skills already allowed.


----------



## BLSBoy

medic417 said:


> 500 more hours would not be enough to add new skills.  It would just be enough to to give some basic education behind the skills already allowed.



There are a few interventions I would like to see them get, such as Albuterol neb treatments, check BGL, basic cardiac monitoring, IM Glucagon, and an airway securing device, such as combitube, LMA, etc.


----------



## Ridryder911

BLSBoy said:


> There are a few interventions I would like to see them get, such as Albuterol neb treatments, check BGL, basic cardiac monitoring, IM Glucagon, and an airway securing device, such as combitube, LMA, etc.



They have that, its called going back and getting their Paramedic. 

Ever noticed the ones that debate education are usually the ones that do not have a formal education.. ever wonder how one would make a rationale debate? ..._Let's not get too smart!_ _Let's keep it at the 6'th grade level.. you know it's only emergency medicine! __Gosh! They would have to start paying us decent wages_... and_..."Gulp! Start requiring us to read more than one book!" _

Show me another medical professionals that do not require an degree for entrance level? 

Again, if you want the money, prestige, benefits of being a professional then one has to perform the requirements & yes that means becoming educated and not trained. 

For as volunteers.. Time will demonstrate they will be a thing of the past in many areas. As the new curriculum will have several more hours and have components of sympathetic nervous system, public health, etc. and less emphasis on memorization for skills we have predicted an increase in the fail rate in classroom and the certification level. Required transitional courses for all those below the Paramedic level to keep their certification will add more education and training. This will be part of the process of weeding out those that are really serious and those that just want a hobby. 

Hang onto your hat.. things are about to get interesting!

R/r 911


----------



## BLSBoy

Rid, I am basing what I stated upon working in a hospital as a tech, and going through the training I had to. 
Minimum of EMT, Phlebotomy/EKG, and working alongside a preceptor for at least 2 months, until I was deemed worthy to work on my own with no supervision. 

Like I said, not every thing needs to be tended to by an RN or Paramedic. I am one who fully supports a tech position, but only if they are sufficiently trained and educated for their responsibilities.


----------



## Scott33

Ridryder911 said:


> Show me another medical professionals that do not require an degree for entrance level?



There isn't one. 



> For as volunteers.. Time will demonstrate they will be a thing of the past in many areas. As the new curriculum will have several more hours and have components of sympathetic nervous system, public health, etc. and less emphasis on memorization for skills we have predicted an increase in the fail rate in classroom and the certification level. Required transitional courses for all those below the Paramedic level to keep their certification will add more education and training. This will be part of the process of weeding out those that are really serious and those that just want a hobby.
> 
> Hang onto your hat.. things are about to get interesting!
> 
> R/r 911



That is music to my ears. Can't wait B)


----------



## eynonqrs

Ridryder911 said:


> They have that, its called going back and getting their Paramedic.
> 
> Ever noticed the ones that debate education are usually the ones that do not have a formal education.. ever wonder how one would make a rationale debate? ..._Let's not get too smart!_ _Let's keep it at the 6'th grade level.. you know it's only emergency medicine! __Gosh! They would have to start paying us decent wages_... and_..."Gulp! Start requiring us to read more than one book!" _
> 
> Show me another medical professionals that do not require an degree for entrance level?
> 
> Again, if you want the money, prestige, benefits of being a professional then one has to perform the requirements & yes that means becoming educated and not trained.
> 
> For as volunteers.. Time will demonstrate they will be a thing of the past in many areas. As the new curriculum will have several more hours and have components of sympathetic nervous system, public health, etc. and less emphasis on memorization for skills we have predicted an increase in the fail rate in classroom and the certification level. Required transitional courses for all those below the Paramedic level to keep their certification will add more education and training. This will be part of the process of weeding out those that are really serious and those that just want a hobby.
> 
> Hang onto your hat.. things are about to get interesting!
> 
> R/r 911




Well here we go again, are you saying I am stupid ??? Well for your information I do have a college degree.  And here we go again with the hobby business. There are people that are serious as volunteers. You people think all we want to do is be wackers and play with lights and sirens.  Well paid people can be wackers just as volunteers. Training requirments may go up, and will still have people that will volunteer.  You people make me sick.  Volunteer's work just as hard as paid services do, so knock off the crap. Let's see who has the last laugh.  I worked very hard to serve my community.  I am not a "mommy may I" or have been feed with a silver spoon.  Money means nothing to me.  Money is the root of all evil.  I am not greedy.  I am giving back to my community.


----------



## Veneficus

eynonqrs said:


> Well here we go again, are you saying I am stupid ??? Well for your information I do have a college degree.  And here we go again with the hobby business. There are people that are serious as volunteers. You people think all we want to do is be wackers and play with lights and sirens.  Well paid people can be wackers just as volunteers. Training requirments may go up, and will still have people that will volunteer.  You people make me sick.  Volunteer's work just as hard as paid services do, so knock off the crap. Let's see who has the last laugh.  I worked very hard to serve my community.  I am not a "mommy may I" or have been feed with a silver spoon.  Money means nothing to me.  Money is the root of all evil.  I am not greedy.  I am giving back to my community.



Slow down. 

First you need to understand that it has been the volunteer provider lobby that has been a major factor in holding back EMS. It doesn't mean all volunteers are hobbyists. It doesn't mean there won't be volunteers who are dedicated enough to go through the requirements. 

I have not seen the latest of the curriculum changes, I would appreciate a link or a copy if anyone would be so kind.

But as soon as it goes for approval, the fire lobby and the supporters of 5 medics on every truck will go crazy. A huge number of non educated medics grandfathered in will be a thorn in the side for years to come. 

Another united lobby of volunteers and IAFF/IAFC will make it dead in the water just like every other time. Just wait till municipalities figure out the cost as well. Even if it gets approved at an adminiistration level it will not stop an injunction or lawsuit. 

If you are not a hobbyist and truly dedicate pay the volunteer comments no mind. It is like when 1 paramedic messes up and public says all paramedics must be like that. Similar to how when one person in the Navy does something wrong and everyone goes crazy about how all sailors are bad.

Don't get me wrong, I support the change. but I am an operations type of guy, you can draw whatever you like up on paper, I want to see it work, which includes a realistic plan to put it into effect.


----------



## Vizior

Hey all, 
I'm going to throw in my few words now, since I don't necessarily get a lot of time online considering I'm overseas at the moment.  (Which I'm trying to turn into a good opportunity to knock out a lot of Gen Ed requirements towards a potential BSN, so any advice via PM from Vent, Rid, etc is never unappreciated.)

Anyways, I see this broken down into a few main points:

1) Young providers vs experience
    - 18 years old, graduate of High School to begin schooling.  It's the same as any other profession.  Whether volunteer or paid, there is no reason to have providers still in High School.  Now, this is the fact that im still young and completely irresponsible, but in High School I knew I wanted to get involved with EMS when I graduated and experience it first hand.  Of course, when I was in High School I was busy with keeping my grades decent, swimming, going out with friends, the stupid things you get away with(drinking, sneaking out, etc).  There's no reason to push yourself to grow up to fast, experience it when you have the chance. 

2)  Observers, young or old
    - Observers don't have a place unless they serve an actual purpose.  Students are OK, but not if they're only there to "help out".  If I need help I'll call for assistance, or recruit a FF or LEO.  I do a fair number of ALS intercepts when I'm stateside with Ambulance Corps that have a clown car full, and it always seems as if there are multiple 15 and 16 year olds.  It aggravates the hell out of me sometimes, just because I need to work around them.  And I can't even teach them too much, because most of them don't have any foundation for the knowledge.  You can't very well explain any cardiac issues without any anatomy and physiology training.

3)  Vollie vs Paid
    - First of all, I'm in NY, and have worked CT and PA.  The systems I've seen are BS.  I want to see call statistics from any vollie departments that states that they provide effective care in comparison to a paid department.  First the tones drop for a BLS squad and they dispatch ALS if necessary.  Then all their members decide if it's an exciting call and if they should respond.  Otherwise, they can just let the county tone out for another squad.  And hell to the Paramedic who is sitting on scene in a fly car.  And if it's dispatched BLS it will take a long time for a unit to get on scene and recognize the need for an ALS unit to the scene.  The amount of time for the patient to receive what should be the minimal standard of care is completely crazy.  When you had a paid service, at least the ambulance gets out the door and en route to the residence in a reasonable amount of time.  And I know "but my department ALWAYS crews up."  BULL:censored::censored::censored::censored:.  In order to be effective you should probably have a standard to uphold.  Something like 90% of calls we will be en route within 2 minutes, on-scene within x minutes, en route to the hospital within x minutes(for those of you that utilize the BLS fly car system).  
    I have no problem working with volunteers that act professionally, and provide something to their community(like making it to the scene before the ALS unit).  I should not have to worry about getting in trouble because I was on scene and began transport to the hospital and upset the BLS crew because I didn't wait for them.  If you say your community can't support a paid system, look larger, go to the county level.  Do something.  Advocating more resources to go to an ineffectual volunteer department doesn't solve anything.


Obviously the usual arguments apply:
-BLS education standards need to be raised
-A&P for everyone
-ALS education standards to be raised


----------



## bstone

Rid,

There actually is a volunteer, hobby police force in the US- it's called the Police Auxiliary (or Reserve). In my area they are weekend warriors. They wear uniforms and are armed. They even have squad cars. They are part of the State Police. Many local and county police also have them.


----------



## Foxbat

Ridryder911 said:


> Hang onto your hat.. things are about to get interesting!
> 
> R/r 911


I doubt anyting interesting will happen. Some volunteers (and some paid EMTs) will whine but they will take the transition course and stay.


----------



## daedalus

Foxbat said:


> I doubt anyting interesting will happen. Some volunteers (and some paid EMTs) will whine but they will take the transition course and stay.



I doubt you have been in EMS as long as rid/ryder, so lets not condemn to the new changes just yet, because they may be our last best hope.

bstone, I am not interested in the police force, its not my chosen profession and I have no will to help it advance. It too needs a lot of work, and those volunteers are probably a thorn in their side as well.


----------



## daedalus

eynonqrs said:


> I don't understand the reason for getting a college degree. You can have all the fancy letters and numbers after ones name, but common sense is the key here.  And besides, are people going to go to college and come out to get a $10 an hour job ? I don't think so. It seems like some of you will stop at nothing to elimate volunteers and telling young people that don't even waste thier time doing this.  The young people are the future of EMS.  And the volunteers are not going away anytime soon.  You know, our squad has 30+ active members and we are going to be voting on 6 more.  We are grateful that we can provide for our community.  I have made my points.  And for the young officers, good luck to you, and congrats.



Oh boy. I nuked some pizza to read the replies this gem got. 

Optimally, in a better not perfect and not so hard to attain world, paramedics should have a wealth of education. They should have basic science so they can understand the body in new ways like never before, they should be students of history and english to promote critical thinking and breadth of education, and math to help their problem solving abilities. Not only will they now be educated professionals, but and this one is a big one, they will get respect from doctors and other allied health professionals.


----------



## medic417

Foxbat said:


> I doubt anyting interesting will happen. Some volunteers (and some paid EMTs) will whine but they will take the transition course and stay.



No most vollys will not take it if it comes about.  But sadly they and fire will whine and cry and this change will get canceled.  Honestly I would not be shocked if education requirements actually get easier rather than tougher.  I think fire knows that to and that is why we are seeing more fire diploma mills opening up.  If they thought it was going to get tougher in 3 years they would have opened now at the tougher standards rather than having to completely retool their schools if it happens.


----------



## Scott33

eynonqrs said:


> There are people that are serious as volunteers.



True, but "serious" usually involves putting in time and effort to gain "officer" status as opposed to furthering their EMS education. 



> You people think all we want to do is be wackers and play with lights and sirens.  Well paid people can be wackers just as volunteers.



True.



> I worked very hard to serve my community.  I am not a "mommy may I"... I am giving back to my community.



So I assume you fully intend to go to Medic school so that you are able to serve your community better, by becoming a more rounded provider. After all, money means nothing to you.


----------



## Foxbat

medic417 said:


> No most vollys will not take it if it comes about.  But sadly they and fire will whine and cry and this change will get canceled.


Educational standards for volunteer firemen have been increasing quite significntly in my area. Only 3-4 years ago, basic firefighting program was 80 hours. Before that it was 40 hours. When i went through it, it was about as long as EMT class. Now it's 170 hours and it will grow even more.
I heard some whining about how it deters volunteers from joining the service... And yet, classes at the academy are full.
Same will happen with volunteer EMS (which, to a large degree, is composed of the same people).


----------



## VFFforpeople

sop said:


> There was a television series on The Disney Channel titled " In A Heartbeat". It was based on a real-life EMS service ran by high school students. So yes there are other young EMS companies out there. "Age is just a number." B)



That was such an awesome show!!! and I am with a VFD i am the newest, not the youngest, but you know, who cares if your 18-19 EMS, I watch my sr. FFs mess up as well, age has nothing to do with medical, it is all on you. You either know it and can do it or you can't, no grey area. Now if you were structure fire or wildland, and you were capt. I would probably give you some grief.


----------



## VFFforpeople

Scott33 said:


> True, but "serious" usually involves putting in time and effort to gain "officer" status as opposed to furthering their EMS education.
> 
> 
> 
> True.
> 
> 
> 
> So I assume you fully intend to go to Medic school so that you are able to serve your community better, by becoming a more rounded provider. After all, money means nothing to you.



I am sick of you arrogant paid people, you make me sick..you think because you make a pay check you became better. I have an ALS VFD, we not only respond to more calls, have a better record, and have more dedicated FFs than our city and state FFs, we do it for free, and I mean for free.
I am going to further my education for my community, because our paid people can't seem to do the work, so no no its ok us freebies will take control, while you sit in your AC rigs in the summer and your Heaters and cry how cold it is. VFF is the REAL meaning of for the people. (and yes I am higher trained than some of our paid capts.)


----------



## BLSBoy

VFFforpeople said:


> I am sick of you arrogant paid people, you make me sick..you think because you make a pay check you became better. I have an ALS VFD, we not only respond to more calls, have a better record, and have more dedicated FFs than our city and state FFs, we do it for free, and I mean for free.
> I am going to further my education for my community, because our paid people can't seem to do the work, so no no its ok us freebies will take control, while you sit in your AC rigs in the summer and your Heaters and cry how cold it is. VFF is the REAL meaning of for the people. (and yes I am higher trained than some of our paid capts.)



Wah wah wah. 
Way to take money out of the pocket of your brothers. 
When I see volunteer interfacility EMTs, I will start to give them credit. 
That is providing service. That is saving the tax payers money.


----------



## Veneficus

BLSBoy said:


> When I see volunteer interfacility EMTs, I will start to give them credit.
> That is providing service. That is saving the tax payers money.



I love that statement, that really puts things in perspective.


----------



## JPINFV

I would normally post some hand wringing freakoutery over the entire "ZOMG volunteering is from the heart" and "We don't need any of that dem dar edu ma cation" posts. Instead, would anyone like some popcorn?


----------



## VFFforpeople

Ridryder911 said:


> They have that, its called going back and getting their Paramedic.
> 
> Ever noticed the ones that debate education are usually the ones that do not have a formal education.. ever wonder how one would make a rationale debate? ..._Let's not get too smart!_ _Let's keep it at the 6'th grade level.. you know it's only emergency medicine! __Gosh! They would have to start paying us decent wages_... and_..."Gulp! Start requiring us to read more than one book!" _
> 
> Show me another medical professionals that do not require an degree for entrance level?
> 
> Again, if you want the money, prestige, benefits of being a professional then one has to perform the requirements & yes that means becoming educated and not trained.
> 
> For as volunteers.. Time will demonstrate they will be a thing of the past in many areas. As the new curriculum will have several more hours and have components of sympathetic nervous system, public health, etc. and less emphasis on memorization for skills we have predicted an increase in the fail rate in classroom and the certification level. Required transitional courses for all those below the Paramedic level to keep their certification will add more education and training. This will be part of the process of weeding out those that are really serious and those that just want a hobby.
> 
> Hang onto your hat.. things are about to get interesting!
> 
> R/r 911



I disagree with you on this one ryder, I usually agree with you 99.9% of the time. I am a VFF to some it is a hobby others like me, I can't afford full time school, i didnt have a silver spoon in my mouth, but I have a VFC that is helping me get through. We staff 4medics 12EMTs, the rest FRs. We have 31 members. We are trained to the level of city,and our CalFire (CDF) paid. We run 24/7 and have not missed a call in over 8years. That is pretty good. Alot of CalFire capts. and City officals actually came from VFCs and not school. You can have all the 10 cent word knowledge you want, doesnt mean :censored::censored::censored::censored:. I laugh at Doctors and Nurses when I am in the ER watching how so many of them forget it isnt about money, its the people. I have gone 84hours straight on a fire line, 4hours sleep, pulled off hit the station and ran 2 medicals then back to the line. If it wasn't for volunteers the ambualnce would see alot more dead. I am sorry I think you all have to big of head trips and are "paragods" or w/e. come back down a notch and remeber we have the same training as you, and some of our training and VFs make you all look like jokes.


----------



## Foxbat

BLSBoy said:


> When I see volunteer interfacility EMTs, I will start to give them credit.


...Or you will say something along the lines of "now these vollies take money from IFT professionals, too!"
With that being said, our service is combination paid+volunteer. IFTs are large %ge of our call volume.


----------



## daedalus

VFFforpeople said:


> I disagree with you on this one ryder, I usually agree with you 99.9% of the time. I am a VFF to some it is a hobby others like me, I can't afford full time school, i didnt have a silver spoon in my mouth, but I have a VFC that is helping me get through. We staff 4medics 12EMTs, the rest FRs. We have 31 members. We are trained to the level of city,and our CalFire (CDF) paid. We run 24/7 and have not missed a call in over 8years. That is pretty good. Alot of CalFire capts. and City officals actually came from VFCs and not school. You can have all the 10 cent word knowledge you want, doesnt mean :censored::censored::censored::censored:. I laugh at Doctors and Nurses when I am in the ER watching how so many of them forget it isnt about money, its the people. I have gone 84hours straight on a fire line, 4hours sleep, pulled off hit the station and ran 2 medicals then back to the line. If it wasn't for volunteers the ambualnce would see alot more dead. I am sorry I think you all have to big of head trips and are "paragods" or w/e. come back down a notch and remeber we have the same training as you, and some of our training and VFs make you all look like jokes.


Kiddo, you have a lot to learn. And, you would have money to go to school if you charged for your services. BTW, ambulance is spelled ambulance, not "ambualnce". And, it isn't all about the people. It is about being able to feed your children and send them to school as well.


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## medic417

Foxbat said:


> Educational standards for volunteer firemen have been increasing quite significntly in my area. Only 3-4 years ago, basic firefighting program was 80 hours. Before that it was 40 hours. When i went through it, it was about as long as EMT class. Now it's 170 hours and it will grow even more.
> I heard some whining about how it deters volunteers from joining the service... And yet, classes at the academy are full.
> Same will happen with volunteer EMS (which, to a large degree, is composed of the same people).



Thats because they hope to become paid firefighters.  If EMS ups requirements people will not man up and get the education unless they want a paid position in many cases.  There will be exceptions but not many unless the services pay for it, but then you can't really claim you are doing it for free then.


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## medic417

VFFforpeople said:


> we do it for free, and I mean for free.



Yes we know and we see it every pay day in low wages.  So thanks for nothing.


----------



## daedalus

VFFforpeople said:


> That was such an awesome show!!! and I am with a VFD i am the newest, not the youngest, but you know, who cares if your 18-19 EMS, I watch my sr. FFs mess up as well, age has nothing to do with medical, it is all on you. You either know it and can do it or you can't, no grey area. Now if you were structure fire or wildland, and you were capt. I would probably give you some grief.



Age has nothing to do with medical? You ether know it and can do it or you can't? Wildland firefighting is more difficult than "medical"?

So, no grey area in medical? No "decisions"? It is black and white huh? So, its pretty clear cut when a doc orders a CT scan on the head of a patient coming into the ER with a headache...its black and white...there is no painstaking thinking about the utility of a head CT on a female pt with a PMHx of migraine? That same doctor doesn't have to think critically about starting chemo on the same patient after he diagnoses a large tumor on her brain, because it is pretty black and white about whether or not the treatment is futile, right? Its clear cut, not critical thinking or decision making, its all on him, right? He does not have to consider evidence based medicine and statistics, vs. the human side of things, right?


----------



## VFFforpeople

daedalus said:


> Kiddo, you have a lot to learn. And, you would have money to go to school if you charged for your services. BTW, ambulance is spelled ambulance, not "ambualnce". And, it isn't all about the people. It is about being able to feed your children and send them to school as well.



Dont call me kid, I work and go to school, and be paid? Wow, so I can be just like you? Worthless and arrogant? No thanks I am better than that. Also we have our VFs working for AMR,Mercy,Enlow. We have plenty of experiance. With us running calls, it save the county money to keep more of you paid on staff..who I question you actually deserve it..My children get fed I have 3. I work,school,and am a VF..Wow, says more about me than you. Huh? wiered VFs are always on the front lines willing to do the work, Thank God for us or the people would only get half the care the deserve. (Remeber Rule 1 of paitent care..pas ABC..it is the paitent.) YAY!! I taught you something!! Now how do you feel?


----------



## daedalus

VFFforpeople said:


> Dont call me kid, I work and go to school, and be paid? Wow, so I can be just like you? Worthless and arrogant? No thanks I am better than that. Also we have our VFs working for AMR,Mercy,Enlow. We have plenty of experiance. With us running calls, it save the county money to keep more of you paid on staff..who I question you actually deserve it..My children get fed I have 3. I work,school,and am a VF..Wow, says more about me than you. Huh? wiered VFs are always on the front lines willing to do the work, Thank God for us or the people would only get half the care the deserve. (Remeber Rule 1 of paitent care..pas ABC..it is the paitent.) YAY!! I taught you something!! Now how do you feel?



Please do not act like that, because it will get the thread locked. Some of us are trying to have intelligent discussion about the future of EMS. Also, the way you write your posts, its very defensive in tone.


----------



## VFFforpeople

daedalus said:


> Age has nothing to do with medical? You ether know it and can do it or you can't? Wildland firefighting is more difficult than "medical"?
> 
> So, no grey area in medical? No "decisions"? It is black and white huh? So, its pretty clear cut when a doc orders a CT scan on the head of a patient coming into the ER with a headache...its black and white...there is no painstaking thinking about the utility of a head CT on a female pt with a PMHx of migraine? That same doctor doesn't have to think critically about starting chemo on the same patient after he diagnoses a large tumor on her brain, because it is pretty black and white about whether or not the treatment is futile, right? Its clear cut, not critical thinking or decision making, its all on him, right? He does not have to consider evidence based medicine and statistics, vs. the human side of things, right?



Again you forget..He doesnt chose if the paitent does Chemo..the paitent decides that. Already you are becoming the worst ALS provider..you forget about the paitent everytime! It is clear cut if you look at it. Chemo paitent may live. Without Chemo paitent may live.The difference is the quaility of treatment and respect they get. Simple Paitent first.


----------



## VFFforpeople

daedalus said:


> Please do not act like that, because it will get the thread locked. Some of us are trying to have intelligent discussion about the future of EMS. Also, the way you write your posts, its very defensive in tone.




Wouldn't be defensive if you and your like minded had an open mind to Volunteers, we do as much as you do, and more most the time. VFs will always be in the future of EMS because some places like up here north of you in CA can't afford to have full staff. They will always be there. Yes, county is pushing for them to go EMT, myself I am already there. So, yes VFs are moving forward as well, we save money simple as that. Thus that is why we are kept around. Economics, I didnt have to go to school to know that.


----------



## medic417

VFFforpeople said:


> Wouldn't be defensive if you and your like minded had an open mind to Volunteers, we do as much as you do, and more most the time. VFs will always be in the future of EMS because some places like up here north of you in CA can't afford to have full staff. They will always be there. Yes, county is pushing for them to go EMT, myself I am already there. So, yes VFs are moving forward as well, we save money simple as that. Thus that is why we are kept around. Economics, I didnt have to go to school to know that.



You are kept around because why pay when you get it for free?  Any community can find money for paid EMS.  I am in very rural and poverty stricken area of USA yet we are paid.  If my area can find the money any one can.  Go EMT lol hope you mean go Paramedic.


----------



## daedalus

VFFforpeople said:


> Again you forget..He doesnt chose if the paitent does Chemo..the paitent decides that. Already you are becoming the worst ALS provider..you forget about the paitent everytime! It is clear cut if you look at it. Chemo paitent may live. Without Chemo paitent may live.The difference is the quaility of treatment and respect they get. Simple Paitent first.



No, hold on. This is a teachable moment for you. 

"45 y/o woman with long history of migraines, imaged normally 2 years ago by her neurologist comes in with a bad weekend of her typical pattern of migraines. The headache is actually gone by the time I see her in the ED. The husband complains that she is just not acting herself, although she can speak coherently to me in the ED. Nonfocal neuro exam. Go back and forth, whine about the utility of a repeat head CT to myself, and just bite the bullet.

On CT, a mass the size of a small lemon originating in the area of her thalamus with hydrocephalus. And I'm a hero for finding it, when I was not wanting to order that test in the first place. Not the first time I've been humbled to be cautious. Usually it's chest pain."

mike (attending ED physician over at SDN) 
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=154841&highlight=medicine+sucks

VFF, doctors must very carefully weigh the risks and benefits in everything that they do. That includes starting treatment for cancer, sometimes it is better to let the patient die without treatment, because the quality of life is much better. Medicine is very far from black and white, and is very complicated and there are rarely right answers to questions. Did you know that we still do not know if oxygen is helpful in the field?


----------



## VFFforpeople

medic417 said:


> You are kept around because why pay when you get it for free?  Any community can find money for paid EMS.  I am in very rural and poverty stricken area of USA yet we are paid.  If my area can find the money any one can.  Go EMT lol hope you mean go Paramedic.



We have District paid VFs, I didn't go into this field for the money. There are enough doctors,nurses,insuarnce sales people for that. I came for the people, to do my best to help them. I speak for me, I dont know why you got into it. If it was for money, I say quit now and never return. If it is because you care about the people, then thank you. I have been on some mean calls where the paitent care made the difference for the family, not my actions of medical.


----------



## Foxbat

medic417 said:


> Thats because they hope to become paid firefighters.  If EMS ups requirements people will not man up and get the education unless they want a paid position in many cases.  There will be exceptions but not many unless the services pay for it, but then you can't really claim you are doing it for free then.


I personally have no intention of becoming a paid FF (and so are many people in my fire classes), but I still attend fire and EMS classes (as well as college A&P) to be better. At the same time, there are a lot of career EMTs who do not attend college and only take minimum con-ed classes.
It's not black and white. On both sides of the fence there are folks willing only to do minimum and vice versa.


----------



## VFFforpeople

daedalus said:


> No, hold on. This is a teachable moment for you.
> 
> "45 y/o woman with long history of migraines, imaged normally 2 years ago by her neurologist comes in with a bad weekend of her typical pattern of migraines. The headache is actually gone by the time I see her in the ED. The husband complains that she is just not acting herself, although she can speak coherently to me in the ED. Nonfocal neuro exam. Go back and forth, whine about the utility of a repeat head CT to myself, and just bite the bullet.
> 
> On CT, a mass the size of a small lemon originating in the area of her thalamus with hydrocephalus. And I'm a hero for finding it, when I was not wanting to order that test in the first place. Not the first time I've been humbled to be cautious. Usually it's chest pain."
> 
> mike (attending ED physician over at SDN)
> http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=154841&highlight=medicine+sucks
> 
> VFF, doctors must very carefully weigh the risks and benefits in everything that they do. That includes starting treatment for cancer, sometimes it is better to let the patient die without treatment, because the quality of life is much better. Medicine is very far from black and white, and is very complicated and there are rarely right answers to questions. Did you know that we still do not know if oxygen is helpful in the field?



Now we are starting to understand eachother, ya it is a hard choice, but black and white. Either you help or you dont. Same with Fire fighting, I am gonna make entry or not, I am gonna put water on the fire or I am gonna pull back. See we all make tough choices, regardless of being a Dr. or a VFF, but we are all a team, we all do the same job regardless of being paid full time,by call,or stipen. I ask that we are seen equal to you, we all had to take the same classes to get to each level.


----------



## daedalus

I think that you will find that most of us here love to help people, but we work hard for our education. If you really want to help your prehospital patients, you should become a paramedic. And if you want to be the best paramedic you can be, you need to have a college education. This all costs a lot of money and time, you will need to be compensated for your time to make up for the difference. It has nothing to do with a silver spoon. My good friend is in PA school right now, and his family are dirt poor immigrants from mexico. You know how he does it? He demonstrated a great attitude and passion for medicine and got a lot of aid from the government and private organizations.


----------



## daedalus

VFFforpeople said:


> Now we are starting to understand eachother, ya it is a hard choice, but black and white. Either you help or you dont. Same with Fire fighting, I am gonna make entry or not, I am gonna put water on the fire or I am gonna pull back. See we all make tough choices, regardless of being a Dr. or a VFF, but we are all a team, we all do the same job regardless of being paid full time,by call,or stipen. I ask that we are seen equal to you, we all had to take the same classes to get to each level.



No, it is never black and white. Ever. Its always risk vs. benefit. In elderly patients that need surgery, there is a chance that they will not survive the anesthesia. This is a risk vs. benefit situation. It is not black and white, but a gamble that the patient and provider take together. And sometimes they do not take it, and the patient dies peacefully. Its also never black and white who to give an organ to, if you have seventy people that will die without it and only have one organ. Its a very careful, but never right in everyone's eyes, choice.


----------



## VFFforpeople

daedalus said:


> I think that you will find that most of us here love to help people, but we work hard for our education. If you really want to help your prehospital patients, you should become a paramedic. And if you want to be the best paramedic you can be, you need to have a college education. This all costs a lot of money and time, you will need to be compensated for your time to make up for the difference. It has nothing to do with a silver spoon. My good friend is in PA school right now, and his family are dirt poor immigrants from mexico. You know how he does it? He demonstrated a great attitude and passion for medicine and got a lot of aid from the government and private organizations.



I would like to apologize for my attitude first off, we get alot of people that bash VFFs. Most of us work for hospitals and get paid. We don't mind Volunteering, right not I am taking NREMT-B, I hope to advance to EMT-P and into CC-P or MICN. Yes alot of school, but I dont look at the money I will make or spend on school, I look at the good I can do. I would become an MICN and work for free at a VFC because I love this profession it is my passion. So, I get worked up sometimes. and I am sorry.


----------



## VFFforpeople

daedalus said:


> No, it is never black and white. Ever. Its always risk vs. benefit. In elderly patients that need surgery, there is a chance that they will not survive the anesthesia. This is a risk vs. benefit situation. It is not black and white, but a gamble that the patient and provider take together. And sometimes they do not take it, and the patient dies peacefully. Its also never black and white who to give an organ to, if you have seventy people that will die without it and only have one organ. Its a very careful, but never right in everyone's eyes, choice.



You call it gamble, I say black and white. I think we can agree on Risk vs Gain. which I agree with.


----------



## daedalus

VFFforpeople said:


> I would like to apologize for my attitude first off, we get alot of people that bash VFFs. Most of us work for hospitals and get paid. We don't mind Volunteering, right not I am taking NREMT-B, I hope to advance to EMT-P and into CC-P or MICN. Yes alot of school, but I dont look at the money I will make or spend on school, I look at the good I can do. I would become an MICN and work for free at a VFC because I love this profession it is my passion. So, I get worked up sometimes. and I am sorry.



After RN school, come back. Perhaps your views will have changed by then. Perhaps not. We are all students of life and I wish you luck.


----------



## VFFforpeople

daedalus said:


> After RN school, come back. Perhaps your views will have changed by then. Perhaps not. We are all students of life and I wish you luck.



I enjoy this site and will stay through my EMT-B career, I do enjoy talking with those. Thank you for the luck, and I hope they don't because if they do..I will have gone to school for nothing, because I will walk away from it. We all need the money, regardless of what you do..I wish you luck on EMT-P school.


----------



## Ridryder911

VFFforpeople said:


> Again you forget..He doesnt chose if the paitent does Chemo..the paitent decides that. Already you are becoming the worst ALS provider..you forget about the paitent everytime! It is clear cut if you look at it. Chemo paitent may live. Without Chemo paitent may live.The difference is the quaility of treatment and respect they get. Simple Paitent first.



Wow! Let the egos begin, as anyone ever noticed how it is always about themselves and not what is best for the patient? (also, please if your going to write how intillegent you are and how much you know at least spell patient and other basic words correctly! I can understand a missed typo or two but four times so far?) p.s What is a gonna?  



VFFforpeople said:


> Now we are starting to understand eachother, ya it is a hard choice, but black and white. Either you help or you dont. Same with Fire fighting, I am gonna make entry or not, I am gonna put water on the fire or I am gonna pull back. See we all make tough choices, regardless of being a Dr. or a VFF, but we are all a team, we all do the same job regardless of being paid full time,by call,or stipen. I ask that we are seen equal to you, we all had to take the same classes to get to each level.



Whoa! Now, you’re telling me you know more about firefighting than the person that has a Degree in Fire Science and has experience at it too? P-l-e-a-s-e! 

Comparing fire suppression to medicine? Been too close that burning vinyl? Hmmm... let's see ? Upper level graduate school, 8 years of medical school and 3-10 years of residency. Oh, okay I see a 2 week course dragging a hose and interior attack entry should be a comparison. It's equal... yeah, right! Please, don't compare the practice of medicine with a trade. There is a reason; you have officers to make those decisions based upon their training and knowledge as well. Yes, I am quite aware of Fire Science, as I have a degree in it also. I was a Captain of a Fire Dept for over 10 years.

I doubt you see many volunteer physicians. Please don't mention the occasional missionary teams or Dr.'s without borders.. yadda, yadda, that most will use for a tax right off their million dollar income. I volunteer for free clinics and missionary trips too; but I can assure you it is not the same or even in comparison with those in the public safety world. 

I do thank you though and others for posting, your points are well taken and truthfully you present, point out & demonstrate my reasons for feeling the way I do. Keep up the great posts! It is much more easier with examples; we now can definitely see where the etiology arises. 

R/r 911


----------



## VFFforpeople

Ridryder911 said:


> Wow! Let the egos begin, as anyone ever noticed how it is always about themselves and not what is best for the patient? (also, please if your going to write how intillegent you are and how much you know at least spell patient and other basic words correctly! I can understand a missed typo or two but four times so far?) p.s What is a gonna?
> 
> 
> 
> Whoa! Now, you’re telling me you know more about firefighting than the person that has a Degree in Fire Science and has experience at it too? P-l-e-a-s-e!
> 
> Comparing fire suppression to medicine? Been too close that burning vinyl? Hmmm... let's see ? Upper level graduate school, 8 years of medical school and 3-10 years of residency. Oh, okay I see a 2 week course dragging a hose and interior attack entry should be a comparison. It's equal... yeah, right! Please, don't compare the practice of medicine with a trade. There is a reason; you have officers to make those decisions based upon their training and knowledge as well. Yes, I am quite aware of Fire Science, as I have a degree in it also. I was a Captain of a Fire Dept for over 10 years.
> 
> I doubt you see many volunteer physicians. Please don't mention the occasional missionary teams or Dr.'s without borders.. yadda, yadda, that most will use for a tax right off their million dollar income. I volunteer for free clinics and missionary trips too; but I can assure you it is not the same or even in comparison with those in the public safety world.
> 
> I do thank you though and others for posting, your points are well taken and truthfully you present, point out & demonstrate my reasons for feeling the way I do. Keep up the great posts! It is much more easier with examples; we now can definitely see where the etiology arises.
> 
> R/r 911



You, know I let it go, seeing as how we are all on the same team, we all do the same job, we all have the same classes we had to take. If I wanted to be you I could do that as well and have the same schooling and same education. So,what others do for free, what other get paid to do. Who are you to say it is wrong? That makes you like me!!! HAHAHAH!!!!! So, there you go champ!! "Wise Men wonder, while Strong men Die!" Thats about what I think of your fire science. They wonder why the hospitals are going down hill, why more people are dieing in ERs, why th quaility of treatment is down...is all comes down to money. You do no good to anyone worrying about HMOs. You know what you said you work at a free clinic, I am not saying YOU have to work for free. I am saying some of us as VFFs only went to school to help. You didn't pay for it, so what does it matter to you what they do? It doesn't leave it at that.


----------



## Veneficus

VFFforpeople said:


> You, know I let it go, seeing as how we are all on the same team, we all do the same job, we all have the same classes we had to take. If I wanted to be you I could do that as well and have the same schooling and same education..



Rid and I often vehemetly disagree on "how," we usually have the same end goal and I cannot believe you are trying to make such an argument with him. it looks like a child arguing with an expert.

I have to ask: "Are you trying to start a fight?" and "Do you really believe this?"

We are not on the same team. Anytime one group (no matter where) holds another group back, they are definately opposing sides.

We do not do the same job. People like Rid spend a majority of their time working and fighting in healthcare. We have to be paid for it and we do it better than people who spend less time with it. We have gotten exponentially more education, seen exponentially more "bad patients," and make considerably more difficult decisions. We do not have the same "job."
Maybe we have the same philosophy.

If you wanted to be us you wouldn't have time for much other than the schooling and patient contact. Think about that the next time you "disregard a page," or decide you want to spend more time with the family or yourself.

Comparing full time life long practicioners to volunteers is like comparing the t-ball team to the major league all stars. "hitting a home run" just doesn't mean the same.

I was trying not to get involved in this clash, but these posts are bordering on absurd.


----------



## Ridryder911

VFFforpeople said:


> You, know I let it go, seeing as how we are all on the same team, we all do the same job, we all have the same classes we had to take. If I wanted to be you I could do that as well and have the same schooling and same education. So,what others do for free, what other get paid to do. Who are you to say it is wrong? That makes you like me!!! HAHAHAH!!!!! So, there you go champ!! "Wise Men wonder, while Strong men Die!" Thats about what I think of your fire science. They wonder why the hospitals are going down hill, why more people are dieing in ERs, why th quaility of treatment is down...is all comes down to money. You do no good to anyone worrying about HMOs. You know what you said you work at a free clinic, I am not saying YOU have to work for free. I am saying some of us as VFFs only went to school to help. You didn't pay for it, so what does it matter to you what they do? It doesn't leave it at that.



Please, you are only embarrasing yourself. 

Are you sure that I and others did not pay for that firefighting class? It was not funded by Federal and State tax grants and funds?... Here's the deal. When and if you ever do become as you stated then come back & tell me how it is. I am attempting to give you facts and non-mythical reasons, which many are far more emotionally about * their *passion instead of what is best for the patient. 

We do remember, the patient right? 

Would you promote lower level of training and non-professional services to any other part of medicine? Do you really think that most of nurses in nursing are not one of the most compassionate groups of people? At the same time, they’re not foolish and definitely will stand up for their profession and their rights, alike I am doing for mine. 

You see, I take this profession very, very serious. I take delivering care to the patient damned serious and those involved touching, responding, and acclaiming to deliver medical care to be very competent and educated to be able to do so. There is * NO  * room for errors or gross judgment due to lack of education or experience. Yes, it that serious. 

My clients  (yes, that is what they are) deserves to be only treated by the best. As a professional educator and manager it is my job to ensure that only those of that caliber do so. If they do not, they get fired and usually have to leave the profession. You see my compassion maybe stronger than some others, I could care less how many children they have or how many bills. My focus is on the patient. 

I have never said volunteers are stupid, or should be totally abolished. I teach them and also provide in-services for at least ten volunteer fire departments. What I have said though, for communities that are not remote or can provide better should do so. 

I am not worried; I only try to educate and inform. The neat thing is I do get paid and give back to my community all at the same time! 

p.s. this is the correct spelling of dying. Heroes are only the dead. Then most of them died foolishly because of someone's screw up. And might want to get with the times; there are very few HMO's left in lieu of PPO's.

For those interested here is a link of the new curriculum/standards 

http://www.ems.gov/portal/site/ems/...toid=409589ff3091f110VgnVCM1000002fd17898RCRD

R/r 911


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## daedalus

Wow! The new guidelines for EMT instruction include a little psychology and EVB!


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## Sasha

> if you and your like minded had an open mind to Volunteers



Like you're open minded to paid individuals?



> Dont call me kid, I work and go to school, and be paid? Wow, so I can be just like you? Worthless and arrogant?





> Already you are becoming the worst ALS provider..you forget about the paitent everytime!



You're so judgemental about a person you don't even know! In reference to the chemo, a patient may choose not to get chemo, but a patient can't choose to get chemo treatment if a doctor doesn't order it. 



> There are enough doctors,nurses,insuarnce sales people for that. I came for the people, to do my best to help them.



EMS should be working together with doctors and nurses, not trying to insult them every chance you get, you've done that twice here that I'm aware of and I was only skimming.


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## Scott33

VFFforpeople said:


> I am sick of you arrogant paid people, you make me sick..you think because you make a pay check you became better



Ha ha ha ha. ROTFL, PMSL, OMFG, etc etc 

I have been a volly for about 8 years now. I continue to contribute more hours per month to vollyism than I do in my paid EMS job.


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## ffemt8978

This thread is now reopened provided everyone remembers the rules.


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## eynonqrs

Scott33 said:


> True, but "serious" usually involves putting in time and effort to gain "officer" status as opposed to furthering their EMS education.



I have to disagree with that, there are several people in my squad that have more than 15 years invested, and never had the desire to run for an officers spot.  I have never been a line officer, only administrative.


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## Shishkabob

Rid and I hardly ever see eye to eye on anything, but I agree with him on this matter.

I have nothing more to add.


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## medic417

Ridryder911 said:


> You see, I take this profession very, very serious. I take delivering care to the patient damned serious and those involved touching, responding, and acclaiming to deliver medical care to be very competent and educated to be able to do so. There is * NO  * room for errors or gross judgment due to lack of education or experience. Yes, it is that serious.
> 
> 
> 
> R/r 911



What he said.  Excellent point.  It is about the patient not our egos and feelings.  Get the education.  Become a Pre Hospital Medical Professional.  Playing games with peoples lives is just wrong.  

As to young people.  I do think that if they were required a college education to get into the field age would not be an issue.


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## UKEMT

Based on the system over in the UK

The minimum age is 21 to be working full time in the NHS Ambulance Service, this is due to the age restrictions placed by the driving agency for the licences required. Any volunteer work has to be done through St John's Ambulance Service and then is not working on front line ambulances they tend to cover sporting and public events and in some areas patient transfer services.

This is all dependant on the training they have received and as such the age limits over here for the volunteer sector are 16-17 but then they are always attached to a senior member of staff.

It is also from experience that the NHS Ambulance service (front line) requires candidates to have life experience and also work experience in a healthcare setting before considering certain applicants this is to ensure that when working you are able to communicate / handle the high pressure work load /emotional emphasis that can be placed on you at certain calls( not saying that all younger aged people cant deal with this butit has been shown that older people are able to deal with this due to "life experience").

but this is in my opinion.


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## STATION4

Hey bmennig you do a good job for our amb squad keep up the good work.dont matter what everybody else says you keep it running...


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## BLSBoy

If you rely on a 19 year old to keep your EMS agency running, there is a serious problem......


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## daedalus

STATION4 said:


> Hey bmennig you do a good job for our amb squad keep up the good work.dont matter what everybody else says you keep it running...



Obviously none of the amazing debate here made the littlest of impact on you.


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## STATION4

bla bla bla.


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## VentMedic

STATION4 said:


> bla bla bla.


 
Do you have anything to post that is worth reading?


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## STATION4

yes i do u read what i posted.


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## BLSBoy

STATION4 said:


> yes i do u read what i posted.



Did you read?
She said worth reading. So far, all you have posted is 3rd grade grammar worthlessness.


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## STATION4

bla bla bla is that to hard for u to under stand


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## BLSBoy

STATION4 said:


> bla bla bla is that to hard for u to under stand



Ladies and gentlemen, I give you what is wrong with our EMS system.....


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## VentMedic

This is why I just gave a big welcome to JCampbell on the Bilingual thread.


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## BLSBoy

I've not been around much. Work, new puppy, etc. 
I'll have to check that out.


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## VentMedic

BLSBoy said:


> new puppy


 
Any pictures?  

Don't we have a thread around here some place for pictures of the kids?


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## BLSBoy

I'll see if I can dig up the thread. 
If ya got facebook, PM me. Tons on there.


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## JPINFV

BLSBoy said:


> Ladies and gentlemen, I give you what is wrong with our EMS system.....



...but is it a sign or the actual disease?


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## BLSBoy

JPINFV said:


> ...but is it a sign or the actual disease?



Either way, it needs to be cut out. 
Forthwith.


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## bmennig

well BLSBoy, I seem to do a good job according to all the local ALS, Hospitals, and other BLS companies. It's a shame that you view me very incapable of doing my job, after all, since I'm not a "Paramedic" and I didn't go to college for a "degree" in how to provide Emergency Medical Services I can't possibly know what I'm doing. Unfortinately, according to the state, I'm not doing anything wrong. BLS isn't rocket science, but who am I to say...


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## AJ Hidell

bmennig said:


> BLS isn't rocket science, but who am I to say...


I suppose I am guilty of saying the same thing a lot.  But when you read these forums daily and see how many people are managing to fail miserably at competent BLS, you start to realize that yes, maybe it is rocket science.


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## daedalus

BLSBoy said:


> Either way, it needs to be cut out.
> Forthwith.



Motion seconded. Put to the floor.


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## BLSBoy

daedalus said:


> Motion seconded. Put to the floor.



All in favor?


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## VFFforpeople

AJ Hidell said:


> I suppose I am guilty of saying the same thing a lot.  But when you read these forums daily and see how many people are managing to fail miserably at competent BLS, you start to realize that yes, maybe it is rocket science.



You know, it just comes down to the person. Really, I have seen bad medics, bad EMTs, Nurses, DRs. It is all the same in other jobs and everything else you do. So, ya BLS isn't hard to me, I am even going back to school for ALS as I have been inspired by the ALS crew members here. Don't bash BLS, we all have a common goal to reach. My medic teacher loves her emt, says that without him, she would be lost sometimes. Like I said just the person and the attitude you have to go with it.


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## el Murpharino

bmennig said:


> well BLSBoy, I seem to do a good job according to all the local ALS, Hospitals, and other BLS companies. It's a shame that you view me very incapable of doing my job, after all, since I'm not a "Paramedic" and I didn't go to college for a "degree" in how to provide Emergency Medical Services I can't possibly know what I'm doing. Unfortinately, according to the state, I'm not doing anything wrong. BLS isn't rocket science, but who am I to say...



I don't think anyone is saying you're incapable; rather you're inexperienced at a position that takes many, many years of EMS and administrative experience to master.  At 19, I just can't see you having the experience nor the education needed to have a solid grasp on EMS management or care.  Have you had to suspend or terminate a friend from your agency because they are violating protocols or SOP's?  Have you tried to make those crusty old members follow new procedures they see as ideas from a "FNG"?  Those are just two of the many lessons you will have to overcome as a "officer".  Tough decisions are part of the job... 

Also, with your system being on the smaller end, you may be doing a great job according to your ALS personnel, hospital, other companies...but that may also be because the call volume is low and you don't have many calls that increase the "pucker factor"...for lack of a better term.  Complacency is a killer in EMS....always look for ways to improve.


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## daedalus

VFFforpeople said:


> You know, it just comes down to the person. Really, I have seen bad medics, bad EMTs, Nurses, DRs. It is all the same in other jobs and everything else you do. So, ya BLS isn't hard to me, I am even going back to school for ALS as I have been inspired by the ALS crew members here. Don't bash BLS, we all have a common goal to reach. My medic teacher loves her emt, says that without him, she would be lost sometimes. Like I said just the person and the attitude you have to go with it.



He wasn't really bashing BLS as much as he was bashing some of the people that are charged with providing it. Since the educational barrier to entry is soo low for EMT-Basics, a lot more idiots make it into the industry than in other health care professions. 

It is nothing personal against any of us BLS providers (yes, I still am one).


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## VFFforpeople

daedalus said:


> He wasn't really bashing BLS as much as he was bashing some of the people that are charged with providing it. Since the educational barrier to entry is soo low for EMT-Basics, a lot more idiots make it into the industry than in other health care professions.
> 
> It is nothing personal against any of us BLS providers (yes, I still am one).



I used bash for a lack of a better term. I agree the standard needs to be raised on the testing. I saw alot of "slackers" like one kids always showed up in flip flops, Pj pants, and a T-top. I was like..really? So, I can see your points and agree.


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## Sasha

VentMedic said:


> Any pictures?
> 
> Don't we have a thread around here some place for pictures of the kids?



He has pictures, but in order to do that you must first sign up for facebook and then add him as a friend and then go BACK to his page once he accepts you as a friend to look.

Personally it was too much work. I quit after signing up.



> All in favor?



I.


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## bmennig

el Murpharino I agree, I'm not saying I'm the greatest because I know I'm not, nobody is the greatest in anything they do. We all have our strong points but if people have the attitude that they are the best when it comes to EMS they're full of $HI*. When you have an EMS service that is going to go extinct because nobody gives a crap about it, I.E. My agency, somebody needs to fill in the space and that somebody was me. In regards to me getting rid of friends and teaching old dogs new tricks I've done it. It's not the easiest to do but I've done it. As far as the low call volume, I can't help that so therefore my agency shouldn't be judged by that. For the calls we get, we do well. Are we going to get calls that we don't do the best on? absolutely, are we going to learn from our peers and medics as well as the hospital staff? absolutely. I don't feel as though I'm to young to do this job. I have people around me that guide me through it that run their own private ambulance services. I feel as though all that information that I have available to me, around me, will make me a better leader.


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## el Murpharino

bmennig said:


> When you have an EMS service that is going to go extinct because nobody gives a crap about it, I.E. My agency, somebody needs to fill in the space and that somebody was me. In regards to me getting rid of friends and teaching old dogs new tricks I've done it. It's not the easiest to do but I've done it. As far as the low call volume, I can't help that so therefore my agency shouldn't be judged by that. For the calls we get, we do well. Are we going to get calls that we don't do the best on? absolutely, are we going to learn from our peers and medics as well as the hospital staff? absolutely. I don't feel as though I'm to young to do this job.



It's the unfortunate truth of small-town EMS - extinction.  I know first-hand the plight of these departments, living in a town that is serviced by one.  Lack of volunteers combined with increased requirements make people not want to join or stay.  Nothing you can really do to combat that, alike your call volume.  Again, out of your hands.


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## bmennig

Absolutely, so before were erased off the map completely I'm going to give it heck.


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## BLSBoy

el Murpharino said:


> It's the unfortunate truth of small-town EMS - extinction.  I know first-hand the plight of these departments, living in a town that is serviced by one.  Lack of volunteers combined with increased requirements make people not want to join or stay.  Nothing you can really do to combat that, alike your call volume.  Again, out of your hands.



Regionalization. Billing for services. 
You also can't help those that don't want it. Face it, you move out to the sticks, and pay 50 cents a year in taxes (obviously being facetious), you can't expect high quality government services. 
Like you said, out of your hands.


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## BLSBoy

Sasha said:


> He has pictures, but in order to do that you must first sign up for facebook and then add him as a friend and then go BACK to his page once he accepts you as a friend to look.



Ask, and ye shall receive. 

http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?p=141145#post141145


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## Sasha

BLSBoy said:


> Ask, and ye shall receive.
> 
> http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?p=141145#post141145



Awwwwww cuuuuute! Somehow i imagined you as more beefy.


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## BLSBoy

Beefy?
lol


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## Sasha

BLSBoy said:


> Beefy?
> lol



Beefy.. like some Terminator of a guy..  Not the smaller, muscley guy that you are.


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## BLSBoy

Sasha said:


> Beefy.. like some Terminator of a guy..  Not the smaller, muscley guy that you are.



Nope, Imma skinny surfer.


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## el Murpharino

BLSBoy said:


> Regionalization. Billing for services.
> You also can't help those that don't want it. Face it, you move out to the sticks, and pay 50 cents a year in taxes (obviously being facetious), you can't expect high quality government services.
> Like you said, out of your hands.



Most definitely.  Many small town departments still hold on to the old-school mentality of "eating" the costs involved with running an ambulance and hoping to raise funds through chicken BBQ's, donation letters, a shrinking tax base, and the like.  These times are gone, my friends...it's sh*t or get off the pot time.


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## CAOX3

This thread needs a DNR.


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## JPINFV

Doesn't matter. GOMERS don't die.


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## Shishkabob

BLSBoy said:


> Nope, Imma skinny surfer.



And I'm just skinny.


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## eynonqrs

Well, this should be my final post on this thread, because it makes me puke to see all this bashing going on.

1) To the young officers in the EMS service, I applaud you. You are the future of our service. We have just recently got 6 new members that are young to join our service.  

2) We have members that not only volunteer ems professionals, but medical professionals. There are people that got interested to further themselves in the medical field because of this.  We are not just doing it for a "hobby". 

3) Pennsylvania has the highest ratio of volunteers in the US. We do save taxpayers millions of dollars. Everyone has seen cities and towns that are in the red. In fact there is a township in PA that has to go bankrupt. What is the services that cities cut ? EMS/FIRE/POLICE. 

4) All of you that bash volunteers, have you even seen a service, ridden along, or just plain have a civil conversation with them ? You would be surprised how many of them have excellent training, and are professional. 

I am proud and will always be proud to be a volunteer. I am done arguing with childish people on here.


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## bmennig

Thanks eynonqrs, I totally agree. Thanks to the rest of you that have agreed with me and what I'm trying to do and for those of you that think I'm retarded and or stupid as well as unprofessional, that's to bad because I could care less what your opinion is. To give me positive input and constructive criticism to make me and my agency better is one thing, but to bash me, my agency, and volunteers in general is a piss poor attitude as well as disrespectful.


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## ffemt8978

And that's enough of this one...

To those of you that only want to hear from people that agree with you, that is not what this forum is about.  It is about discussion, and for discussion to be productive, you must have different opinions.  How boring would this place be if everyone agreed with each other?


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