# Is there anything they could of done?



## Anjel (Jan 23, 2011)

Our instructor told us this story. I don't know if it happened to a partner or if he heard it from someone but it kind of stuck with me. 

An ambulance crew were posted in Detroit waiting on standby. One of the medics look over and see a man lying in the middle of a vacant lot, not moving. 

They get out of the ambulance and run over to him. He had a GSW to the abdomen but was still alive. They loaded him on to the cot and got him in the back of the lighted ambulance so they could see what was going on.

Next thing you know the doors flew open, and they were staring down the barrel of a shot gun. The gun man simply stated "Get out or die". The two medics got out of the ambulance. The gun man finished the job and took off running.

Did they do the right thing? Or was it there fault they were in that position in the first place? :unsure:


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## reaper (Jan 23, 2011)

Its an urban myth that has been around for 20 years. Everybody's instructor was there or knew a buddy it happened to.


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## rescue99 (Jan 23, 2011)

Anjel1030 said:


> Our instructor told us this story. I don't know if it happened to a partner or if he heard it from someone but it kind of stuck with me.
> 
> An ambulance crew were posted in Detroit waiting on standby. One of the medics look over and see a man lying in the middle of a vacant lot, not moving.
> 
> ...



Your story sounds like a couple of co-workers and the experience they had some 10-12 years ago. EMS workers are sometimes endangered working in some parts of Detroit, especially after dark. It is rare but, it does occasionally happen. As I recall, the crew was held at gunpoint and prevented from doing anything to potentially save the victim. Once the patient died, the gunman simply got out and went about his day. 

As for anything they could have done...not really, except for taking off as soon as they got in the unit in hopes of out-running the gunman. They did everything right as far as communication goes. The gunman was just faster! Believe it or not, it's safer now than it was then.


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## firetender (Jan 23, 2011)

Anjel1030 said:


> "Get out or die".



Urban legend or not, I'll take one from Column "A"


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## usafmedic45 (Jan 23, 2011)

As was said, it's an urban legend.  Over the yers, I have heard it told as having happened in Detroit, Cleveland, Indianapolis, Chicago, DC, Baltimore, Atlanta, Houston and Denver.

To answer you question though, any call you walk away from alive you did the right thing.  No patient is worth your life.


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## jjesusfreak01 (Jan 23, 2011)

rescue99 said:


> As for anything they could have done...not really, except for taking off as soon as they got in the unit in hopes of out-running the gunman. They did everything right as far as communication goes. The gunman was just faster! Believe it or not, it's safer now than it was then.



This is the correct action. Any time you find yourself in the middle of an unsafe scene and you have decided to evac the patient, get out of the scene as quickly as possible.


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## nakenyon (Jan 23, 2011)

Yup. If someone held me at gunpoint and told me not to treat the patient. I would listen. Remember...Your safety, your partners safety and then the patient.


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## JJR512 (Jan 24, 2011)

What about scene safety?

You randomly find a GSW victim just lying there...How about immediately notifying dispatch and requesting a police presence?


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## socalmedic (Jan 24, 2011)

jj i take it you did not grow up in a bad neighborhood. i would say this is plausible, man gets shot and stagers away, sees an ambulance walks through a parking lot towards it and collapses.

but i am going with the urban legend theory. when i worked in the not so nice neighborhoods south east of LA we found plenty of not very alive bodys in alleys, dumpsters, gutters, you get the idea...


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## JJR512 (Jan 24, 2011)

socalmedic said:


> jj i take it you did not grow up in a bad neighborhood. i would say this is plausible, man gets shot and stagers away, sees an ambulance walks through a parking lot towards it and collapses.
> 
> but i am going with the urban legend theory. when i worked in the not so nice neighborhoods south east of LA we found plenty of not very alive bodys in alleys, dumpsters, gutters, you get the idea...



What I wrote had nothing to do with whether or not I thought the story was plausible or an urban legend or whatever, and it has nothing to do with where I grew up. In fact, I took the story as posted as nothing more than a scenario, as in, "What would you have done in this scenario," or, "Critique what this crew did in this scenario." My post is in line with the latter. The scenario—the original post—made no mention of the alleged crew calling for backup or notifying anyone. Had I been in that situation, regardless of what kind of neighborhood I grew up in, I would have notified dispatch, and through them the police.

Now, the police, once notified, may or may not have arrived on scene in time to protect the ambulance crew. They may have arrived in time to prevent the assailant from finishing the job, or they may have arrived just in time to catch him as he was running away, or they might not have gotten there in time to do anything other than collect stories. Who knows. But they still should have been notified first thing. They can't get there at all if they don't know there's something going on.


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## cmetalbend (Jan 24, 2011)

socalmedic said:


> jj i take it you did not grow up in a bad neighborhood. i would say this is plausible, man gets shot and stagers away, sees an ambulance walks through a parking lot towards it and collapses.
> 
> but i am going with the urban legend theory. when i worked in the not so nice neighborhoods south east of LA we found plenty of not very alive bodys in alleys, dumpsters, gutters, you get the idea...



JJ is 100% right. Of course its plausable. But a GSW comes from a deadly weapon. Not only that, you don't know if its suicide, gang shootout, Intent to kill an EMS worker........You might feel more comfortable at that scene, if it was regular to your area. But not calling the cops is like saying "No big deal, ya I know gunshot wound, happens all the time here, and no I can't die cause I'm here to save this guy."         Good Call JJ EMT-B


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## Anjel (Jan 24, 2011)

I agree that they should of called for PD immediately. The gun shot was in the abdomen. And he was laying in the middle of a vacant lot, in a bad part of town. That really doesn't scream suicide to me. 

The very first day of training and the first thing you even read in a text book is Scene Safety. In my opinion, if they would of considered the entire situation and not just "ooh you are bleeding let me save you" :huh: then maybe the entire thing could of been avoided. 

But even when you do everything right. Bad stuff still happens. So IDK. I just wanted to see what you all thought.


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## usafmedic45 (Jan 24, 2011)

> That really doesn't scream suicide to me.



In my experience both in EMS and as a deputy coroner, you'd be amazed the weird things people do when suicidal.   A lot of people try to make their suicides not "scream suicide".


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## Hockey (Jan 25, 2011)

Women usually do not shoot themselves in the head/face.  Men do.


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## Anjel (Jan 25, 2011)

Ok so I take my comment back about not screaming suicide. 

This happened at a hospital near us last week. 

Man walks up ER parking lot. Pours gas on himself. Lights him self on fire. Tried to run into the ER. Gets tackled and someone calls 911 for medics to take him inside. 

What a way to go. Guys still alive with full thickness burns from the waste up. 50% of his body. 

If I hadn't seen the video I would of thought he was a victim of an assault not suicide. 

Guess you can never assume anything.


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## Hockey (Jan 25, 2011)

Anjel1030 said:


> Ok so I take my comment back about not screaming suicide.
> 
> This happened at a hospital near us last week.
> 
> ...




He didn't try to run inside


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## Anjel (Jan 25, 2011)

The surveillance tape showed him head towards the doors twice. Our teacher is head of legal operations there and that's what she told us.

Maybe he was just trying to get help.


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## Hockey (Jan 25, 2011)

Anjel1030 said:


> The surveillance tape showed him head towards the doors twice. Our teacher is head of legal operations there and that's what she told us.
> 
> Maybe he was just trying to get help.


mclaren? He didn't run it was more like stumbling.


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## JJR512 (Jan 25, 2011)

Hockey said:


> He didn't *try* to run inside





Hockey said:


> mclaren? He didn't run it was more like stumbling.



Maybe he didn't _actually_ run but he may very well have been _trying_ to run.


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## TransportJockey (Jan 25, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> *To answer you question though, any call you walk away from alive you did the right thing.  No patient is worth your life.*



This. This is 100% true.


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## usafmedic45 (Jan 25, 2011)

> Women usually do not shoot themselves in the head/face. Men do.



Depends on the culture they come from.  There have been a couple of studies that contradicted that based on the location of the study populations.


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## Ghost (Jan 29, 2011)

JJ, I think calling dispatch for police would be a good idea, Although I think while the police are on their way that you should assist the patient. 

Yes! If a man comes up to you with a shotgun do as he says, but at least the police are on their way and may be able to catch the guy... Who knows?! 

Good Stuff!


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## Hockey (Jan 31, 2011)

JJR512 said:


> Maybe he didn't _actually_ run but he may very well have been _trying_ to run.



Nah, I was there.  One of us would of shot him if he tried running toward us.  Or at least Tasered him :lol:


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