# Anyone want to talk about their C.E.R.T. (Community Emergency Response Team)?



## mycrofft (Mar 7, 2009)

We have some folks here with contact and may be active in the Dept of Homeland Security phenomenon known as "C.E.R.T.". At least one of our folks, "certguy", went so far as to do a sort of tabletop exercise a while back:
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=6617&highlight=certguy

L.A. County Fire has a CERT website which includes a bulletin board open to ANY CERT's anywhere, but it is not allowed to become a freewheeling discussion center like this and as a result has been poorly frequented:
http://www.cert-la.com/YaBB/YaBB.pl
(Although I still highly recommend it as the potential repository for real life experience for CERT and its members..and I have wallpapered it with entries!!:blush

Do any other EMTLIFE participants feel they would like to discuss CERT here? CERTGUY, you still around?


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## mycrofft (Oct 15, 2009)

*It's been half a year, anyone part of a CERT now?*

Mine's just getting going and I'm probably going to leave it.


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## redcrossemt (Oct 16, 2009)

As someone who went through the CERT Instructor Training, I have to say that I'm fairly impressed with the overall cirriculum package from the government, but not impressed with all of the implementations around my neck of the woods.

Unfortunately, many of the local teams haven't even provided First Aid and CPR training to their members. They focused more on the dangerous and cool stuff that they'll never need.

In addition, the use of CERTs has been controversial. Often you see them directing traffic at large events around here. They often lack any traffic safety training, their vests don't meet the ANSI requirements, and those duties do nothing to enforce the skills that they need to be practicing. We also see them helping with "security" and looking for terrorists at large events. While there's something to be said for extra eyes at a large event, at some point it just becomes ridiculous to have people walk around looking for terrorists. I think this also makes our CERT volunteers feel like they aren't using their skills, and aren't valued members of the response community.

Would like to hear about some good implementations out there...!


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## DV_EMT (Oct 16, 2009)

We got a CERT out here in SB. Heard its going pretty well... but it needs more "community" involvement


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## Chimpie (Oct 17, 2009)

redcrossemt said:


> Unfortunately, many of the local teams haven't even provided First Aid and CPR training to their members. They focused more on the dangerous and cool stuff that they'll never need.



CPR is not part of the CERT curriculum.


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## mycrofft (Oct 17, 2009)

*Chmpoie sound CERT-ie*

True, CPR is omitted.

I've been at it since Dec'04 and am pretty disillusioned. Maybe that is because it burst some of my bubbles.

I have come to see CERT as a skill set and attitude one holds personally and the other stuff is just to keep and attract people.
I also see CERT as a means for sponsoring organizations (mosty FD's) to justify a few more paid positions to run it, and a way to keep the sparkies busy. Better if the CERT members run it, I think?


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## redcrossemt (Oct 19, 2009)

Chimpie said:


> CPR is not part of the CERT curriculum.



Exactly.


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## mycrofft (Oct 19, 2009)

*Will no one post another thread and cover this one up?*

:sad:...........


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## Deganveran (Dec 2, 2009)

I finished CERT-LA training about two months ago. Definately helpful but, as many have mentioned, CPR is omitted. Maybe because when you start CPR you are not allowed to stop until you are A) exhausted or B) The patient is biologically dead for a few minutes. I was the youngest by a long shot in my CERT class and as many were joking (and a few were looking for power trips) I am not sure I would want to count on many of them to save me. I wish they had more refresher exercises and that they were general, instead of an intensive one day thing on fire I'd rather have the CERT experience in a day to remember all I have learned.


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## redcrossemt (Dec 3, 2009)

Deganveran said:


> I finished CERT-LA training about two months ago. Definately helpful but, as many have mentioned, CPR is omitted. Maybe because when you start CPR you are not allowed to stop until you are A) exhausted or B) The patient is biologically dead for a few minutes.



You can't stop CPR when the patient becomes "biologically dead" for a few minutes.

But, to your overall point, CERT members aren't only going to be used during disasters! The whole point was to get more people trained in life-saving skills. Most of the "disasters" that CERT members will respond to are small fires and one-patient emergency medical issues. Doesn't it make sense then, to provide first aid and CPR training to them?

mycrofft, sorry for posting on the thread again!


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## EMSLaw (Dec 3, 2009)

redcrossemt said:


> You can't stop CPR when the patient becomes "biologically dead" for a few minutes.



Define "a few minutes".  This will depend on state protocols, but some places allow discontinuation of resuscitation after the patient has been in cardiac arrest for more than 30 minutes.  The general rule, though, is you discontinue CPR when:

1. The patient revives (the old joke about "If they say 'ouch!' during chest compressions, you should stop....");
2. More highly-trained help arrives;
3. You become too exhausted to continue;
4. The scene becomes unsafe; or 
5. On the order of a physician (such as if a DNR order is produced).  

If CERT teams are designed to help in large natural disaster/MCI situations, then I suppose it makes sense that CPR isn't part of the curriculum, since you don't start CPR under those circumstances.  However, I firmly believe that everyone should learn CPR, and so given the platform to teach it to more people, those running CERT teams might want to take the opportunity to produce a raft of new CPR-trained laypersons.


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## mycrofft (Dec 4, 2009)

*Thanks for breathing new life into this...and giving it compressions.*

BTW, LA CERT has a forum, it is less lively than here but it can be informative (google LA CERT IDEAS).

CERT Level One has no CPR, it has a modified triage paradigm, and is aimed at preventing those deaths caused by the easily and rapidly addressed "killers", airway embarassment due to head/neck position and bleeding (as well as dangerous surroundings). CERT-One's big goal is to keep bystanders and those experiencing a disaster from becoming victims by preparedness, then personal reaction, then teaming up to keep others out of danger and start rescue as the last priority. It is also aimed at keeping us citizens out of the way when the pro's come in.

CERT Level Three has much-enhanced EMS included.

Nothing says you can't get better training on your own.


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## Deganveran (Dec 9, 2009)

redcrossemt said:


> You can't stop CPR when the patient becomes "biologically dead" for a few minutes.
> 
> But, to your overall point, CERT members aren't only going to be used during disasters! The whole point was to get more people trained in life-saving skills. Most of the "disasters" that CERT members will respond to are small fires and one-patient emergency medical issues. Doesn't it make sense then, to provide first aid and CPR training to them?
> 
> mycrofft, sorry for posting on the thread again!



In CERT-LA we are trained specifically for MCI's. Our focus is earthquakes and, to a lesser extent, fires. As we expect the big one to come next year LA county is making government employee's get CERT'd before next year (according to my CERT trainer). As it was said, at CERT level three you need to have either an EMT certification or pass a CERT class that acts basically like an EMT class with emphasis on EMS.


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## mycrofft (Dec 9, 2009)

*Here's the grayhaired daddy of the CERT websites*

http://www.cert-la.com/YaBB/YaBB.pl

"EMS" is a small facet of CERT _*as envisioned by the originators*_. CERT is primarily self-preservation, and learning how NOT to become a problem/victim.  I am not an administrator, but I do not think there is a rule which _forbids_ a CERT unit or member from exceeding the mandatory training threshold. The issue may be that most CERTs seem to be sponsored by the local FD and they do not want CERT's popping up flashing their green helmets and freelancing accidents, heart attacks, etc., so there is an issue of roles in the local structure.

If your CERT is utilizing you for more than window dressing or waving at motorists by the traffic cones, you may be in the minority, judging by many CERT-related after-action reports on the internet.


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## ATL-MEDIC (Dec 27, 2009)

CERT is ok. I'm annoyed when they tell me they are are the same level of training as national and state certified EMT's. I'm an EMT-I about to complete paramedic in January and I have a friend who is in cert, and he tells me hes on the same level of care as I am. HAHAHAAAAAAAAA


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## mycrofft (Dec 28, 2009)

*Every bunch has one green banana.*

I heard the utterance once about that EMT equivalency deal. The truth was that they (our locol CERT meisters) would waive the CERT Level III training if you were an EMT.


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