# Ouch - Wear your helmet



## Bosco578 (Nov 30, 2008)

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=06KvVvVQ1Mc


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## phabib (Nov 30, 2008)

when I get my motorcycle, I definitely will! Hell, I think any EMT or Paramedic caught riding without one should have their cert taken away.

Anyways, hard to believe that guy survived. I was sure he was dead from the way he was hanging there. Just as a spinal immobilization question, would you remove the helmet or tape it down to the backboard? Those things are on tight, I'd think taking it off would compromise his spine.


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## Bosco578 (Nov 30, 2008)

phabib said:


> when I get my motorcycle, I definitely will! Hell, I think any EMT or Paramedic caught riding without one should have their cert taken away.
> 
> Anyways, hard to believe that guy survived. I was sure he was dead from the way he was hanging there. Just as a spinal immobilization question, would you remove the helmet or tape it down to the backboard? Those things are on tight, I'd think taking it off would compromise his spine.



I'd r/o c-spine and walk him to the unit.........kidding,it would be coming off,I'm assuming he is unconscious,need airway access. Come to think of it, he does look dead....hmmmmmmm


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## Scout (Nov 30, 2008)

he died

http://www.snopes.com/photos/accident/tulsacrash.asp


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## KEVD18 (Nov 30, 2008)

phabib said:


> Hell, I think any EMT or Paramedic caught riding without one should have their cert taken away.



that is easily among the top ten most ridiculous things i have ever read on this forum, and you have some really stiff competition.

for one thing, theres absolutely zero correlation between a personal risk i decide to take off duty and my professional career. we're not talking about heroin or unprotected sex, both which extend theoretical ramifications from off duty time into on duty time.

second, what about state where there is no helmet law(new hampshire jumps to mind). you;re saying that, because someone ahs a certain job, they should be subject to a law that no one else in the state is? 

do you actually know anything about helmets and how they relate to tbi's and sci's? i suggest you look into the actual statistics and case studies.

for the record, it is my personal position on the matter that i would rather be pronounced on scene because i wasnt wearing my helmet than living the rest of my life as a quad/para with all the lovely parts of that that go along with it(bed sores, disimpaction etc).


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## enjoynz (Nov 30, 2008)

In New Zealand it's illegal to ride a motorbike (and for that matter a push bike) without a helmet. 
As far as I can see, not wearing one is as silly as not wearing your seat belt in a car!
We have a lot of motorbike accidents here.

Also, a Paramedic friend of mine that runs a EMS service in Thailand says they would have a lot less deaths there,
 if people had to wear crash helmets.
Their Stats for MVC's are really bad!

Cheers Enjoynz


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## rhan101277 (Nov 30, 2008)

phabib said:


> when I get my motorcycle, I definitely will! Hell, I think any EMT or Paramedic caught riding without one should have their cert taken away.
> 
> Anyways, hard to believe that guy survived. I was sure he was dead from the way he was hanging there. Just as a spinal immobilization question, would you remove the helmet or tape it down to the backboard? Those things are on tight, I'd think taking it off would compromise his spine.



In class we are taught not to take off helmets unless they are loose fitting, because then they don't provide good stabilization.


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## KEVD18 (Nov 30, 2008)

what nobody wants to realize is that a person that is paralayzed from the eyelashes down is still considered alive. so that person, if they were injured in a motorcycle accidetn but were wearing a helmet, is considered a "saved life".

as i said earlier, to me thats no kind of life whatsoever............


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## phabib (Nov 30, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> that is easily among the top ten most ridiculous things i have ever read on this forum, and you have some really stiff competition.
> 
> for one thing, theres absolutely zero correlation between a personal risk i decide to take off duty and my professional career. we're not talking about heroin or unprotected sex, both which extend theoretical ramifications from off duty time into on duty time.
> 
> ...



Are you seriously saying helmets don't prevent injury?

I stand by what I said. When someone proves they are an idiot, they shouldn't be in a position to make life or death decisions for other people. If they can't even figure out that a helmets prevent trauma then they shouldn't be medics.


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## marineman (Dec 3, 2008)

If you're saying I'm an idiot for not wearing a helmet when I ride you need a reality check. Yet again if you're saying somehow this magical helmet prevents trauma you need an even bigger reality check. Not crashing prevents trauma. Remember in any collision there are actually 3 collisions that are taking effect on your body. A majority of the time the organ collision is when the most damage is done to body organs and that is a collision that the helmet will not protect against. 

Let me ask you this, eating hot dogs causes cancer, living in Los Angeles causes cancer, smoking causes cancer, drinking causes liver failure and cancer, walking outside on ice could lead to a traumatic fall, climbing a ladder to clean your gutters could lead to a traumatic fall, drinking diet soda puts holes in your brain, eating fast food makes you fat and die of a heart attack. Should every paramedic in the world that's ever been guilty of one of these infractions on common sense lose their license? It's exactly the same thing except eating fast food and drinking diet soda are choices we make while on duty. Off duty means none of anyone's business. 

P.S. for those debating to take off that helmet, if it's an open face helmet leave it on, if it's full face how do you plan on managing your airway?


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## karaya (Dec 3, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> do you actually know anything about helmets and how they relate to tbi's and sci's? i suggest you look into the actual statistics and case studies.
> 
> for the record, it is my personal position on the matter that i would rather be pronounced on scene because i wasnt wearing my helmet than living the rest of my life as a quad/para with all the lovely parts of that that go along with it(bed sores, disimpaction etc).


 
Are you trying to suggest that _not wearing a helmet _will reduce the likely hood that one will wind up as a quad/para by being killed outright?

I realize this is your personal position as you stated, but it somewhat stuns me to hear what I consider an obtuse statement from a well respected professional as yourself.  I certainly hope your "personal position" is something that you are not promoting to the public in your capacity as an EMS professional, especially when it comes to kids and bicycle safety.

The National Pediatric Trauma Registry shows that wearing a helmet can reduce the risk of TBI by as much as 88%.  The NTSB recently released a report that by not wearing a helmet one is three times more likely to have TBI in the event of an accident.

A few months ago I photographed a motorcycle accident whereby the motorcycle collided with a brick wall at a high rate of speed and then cartwheeled the two riders nearly 100 feet.  Numerous long bone fractures were the major injuries and there were no head injuries (both were wearing full face helmets).  You can see photos of this accident in the upcoming December 2008 issue of JEMS magazine.

My point here is that your analogy gambles on either being killed or winding up as a "quad/para".  As in the example I illustrated above, both riders got away with just fractures and no head injuries.  It's a fair and statistical assumption that wearing their helmets is why the medics did not encounter any head injuries (obvious or suspected). 

Ray


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## Ridryder911 (Dec 3, 2008)

The reason to wear a helmet when going high speed; is for open casket ceremony. 

Sorry, I wear my helmet (most of the time) but also realize at high speed their worthless. Yeah, I've read the studies and witnessed numerous of motorcycle accidents too. Basically, if you are > 50 mph it really doesn't matter. Speed of impact and force one will still have TBI or other significant injuries. 

In regards to TBI is that motorcycle or Bicycling injuries? As there is also a correlation of low speed impacts causing severe head injuries as well. 

In regards to declassifying licenses for not wearing them... grow up. Are you going to also do the same with those >10 lbs overweight, BSA of body fat > 20%, those that smoke or drink alcohol or take prescription (non-prescription) medications as well or work more than 80 hours in a week? Yeah, lets start with something that occurs more often... 

As an adult you know and recognize the risks. Just alike when you become a flight medic or nurse, you crash... great chance you are going to die. The least is a broken back, ankles, etc.. that again is if you live.

R/r 911


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## crayzeeemt (Dec 3, 2008)

*btw*



phabib said:


> when i get my motorcycle, i definitely will! Hell, i think any emt or paramedic caught riding without one should have their cert taken away.
> 
> Anyways, hard to believe that guy survived. I was sure he was dead from the way he was hanging there. Just as a spinal immobilization question, would you remove the helmet or tape it down to the backboard? Those things are on tight, i'd think taking it off would compromise his spine.



hes dead!!!!!!


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## crayzeeemt (Dec 3, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> that is easily among the top ten most ridiculous things i have ever read on this forum, and you have some really stiff competition.
> 
> for one thing, theres absolutely zero correlation between a personal risk i decide to take off duty and my professional career. we're not talking about heroin or unprotected sex, both which extend theoretical ramifications from off duty time into on duty time.
> 
> ...



I couldnt have said it better myself


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## BossyCow (Dec 3, 2008)

So, wearing a helmet doesn't stop a minor crash from becoming more serious due to head trauma? I recall my days of commuting on a bicycle. I had a very minor crash and to this day can recall perfectly the sound of my bike helmet hitting the pavement and the resulting crack in the helmet. I remember thinking.. "Wow, that could have been my head" and have been a fanatic helmet wearer ever since. 

The rationale that a helmet isn't going to help you in a high speed crash is the same as the 'I could get hit by a bus tomorrow so why shouldn't I keep smoking 3 packs a day' line. Not all motorcycle accidents are high speed crashes. Not all motorcycle wrecks are operator error. If you wish to take your life in your hands and avoid attempts to mitigate the results of your own obstinance, simply sign a release saying that if you are incapacitated by the results of your choice, that you relinquish all rights to SSI disability payments after you turn yourself into a self watering vegetable, unable to hold a job and I'll be happy to help overturn the helmet laws.


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## mikie (Dec 3, 2008)

If I recall properly, there were photos of this accident posted to this forum a while ago (~year) then later removed cause of the rules (NOT saying that this is a rule violation (since it's a link to YouTube, i would presume)). 

Ouch.


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## tatersalad (Dec 3, 2008)

I think the point might relate to cervical fractures _caused_ by the straps on full face helmets. Sorry I don't have a link, but did read an article on this some time ago.


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## crayzeeemt (Dec 3, 2008)

mikie said:


> If I recall properly, there were photos of this accident posted to this forum a while ago (~year) then later removed cause of the rules (NOT saying that this is a rule violation (since it's a link to YouTube, i would presume)).
> 
> Ouch.



Your right. Thats an old one.


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## enjoynz (Dec 3, 2008)

Just a bit of a side question to this motorbike thing.
Of those on here that do ride motorbikes and don't wear helmets. 
Do you wear leathers????

Enjoynz


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## Ridryder911 (Dec 3, 2008)

crayzeeemt said:


> Your right. Thats an old one.



I was informed by Tulsa crews that he was still alive with a C-5, 6 subflexion fractures and yes as well as having a TBI and in rehab at St.John's.  I don't know how reliable or accurate the recent hx. is though. 

In the question yes, I wear full leathers on days when it is allowable (<90 degrees). 

R/r 911


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## KEVD18 (Dec 3, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> The reason to wear a helmet when going high speed; is for open casket ceremony.
> 
> Sorry, I wear my helmet (most of the time) but also realize at high speed their worthless. Yeah, I've read the studies and witnessed numerous of motorcycle accidents too. Basically, if you are > 50 mph it really doesn't matter. Speed of impact and force one will still have TBI or other significant injuries.
> 
> ...



as per usual, R/r said what i was trying to say much more betterer


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## karaya (Dec 3, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> The reason to wear a helmet when going high speed; is for open casket ceremony.
> 
> Sorry, I wear my helmet (most of the time) but also realize at high speed their worthless. Yeah, I've read the studies and witnessed numerous of motorcycle accidents too. Basically, if you are > 50 mph it really doesn't matter. Speed of impact and force one will still have TBI or other significant injuries.R/r 911


 
This seems to be relational issue as to what is considered high speed and what type of impact to the head are we talking about? What studies support the claim that a helmet doesn't matter for anything greater than 50 MPH?


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## Ridryder911 (Dec 3, 2008)

There is several studies (no, I don't have a list) but I had studied when I was on my state TBI prevention committee; that accounts that there is only so much as helmet can do as well as the limit of protection. Most mechanism over the speed of 50 mph will produce such injuries that protection can be helpful but doubtful of really having much impact of truly preventing coup contra coup injuries and such related injuries. Most motorcyclists of high speed impacts have other associated life threatening injuries that one can only reduce the chances as well too. There is no real  total protection or prevention, alike seat belts and other safety devices.  

Most of TBI injury studies that I am aware for pediatrics are r/t bicycle injuries. I was alarmed at the extent of injuries to low speed and in fact placed regulation in my state parks for bicyclists must wear head gear. 

I am not against head wear, but that it should be an option if the motorcyclist is of age and aware of the risks. The difference from seat belts and head wear is the percentage of protection it really provides the occupant. 

R/r 911


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## karaya (Dec 3, 2008)

Thanks for clarifying this.

Ray


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## mycrofft (Dec 3, 2008)

*Well, it's like this...*

My tough side says if you don't wear a helmet you don't get MediCal for cranial injuries. You just burned up the money I could send (as a case manager) to do pediatric care for a bunch of kids, or pregnant teens, or whatever.

I hate to argue about helmet safety with persons who just don't or won't wear them, it backs otherwise perfectly fine and rational people into saying helmets don't work or cause injuries and other such things. Pishtush, I say, except with the folks who get sensory disconnect and/or feel like they are invincible then rocket into oblivion. (And you know if I were still case managing I'd OK your case. I OK'ed plenty, darnitall). Just don't get all defensive, like tobacco executives arguing about nicotine or oil executives arguing about air pollution.

Just say "I don't wanna".


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## FFEMT1A (Dec 14, 2008)

They actually tried to pass a "Seatbelts on Motorcycle" law here in Colorado.... it made it about 5 minutes then went away.

I feel "Let those who ride decide" and as far as taking away my cert for not wearing it... I think not


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