# Training to be certified in First Aid/CPR/AED ?'s



## trevor1189

Ok I am a college student. I am currently premed. I am taking a course which will certify me in the above following. I am thinking of taking a EMT-B if I can find one this summer then volunteering at my local FD. I have a legal sort of question. The class covers emergencies in depth. Since I am planning on becoming EMT-B and I want to be prepared for emergencies, I ordered a Trauma kit from Gall's http://galls.com/style.html?assort=general_catalog&style=TK085

I just wanted to know if there is anything in that kit that I cannot use assuming I am certified in the above. I just don't want to use a bag mask or a neck brace if that is out of the scope of practice for the certifications I have. I went with one of the complete kits so if/when I become EMT-B I'll have a kit in my car to be able to help. I figured it was good to have since first aid/cpr skills are good to have but if you don't have the equipment with you it isn't much good.

Help is appreciated.

PS I was certified in CPR before and First AID but never recertified. We have learned about the reasonable man test and I just dont want to be found negligent if I use any items in that kit if/when there is an emergency requiring attention.


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## bstone

Trevor, you'll find most EMTs here don't carry much on them. I used to carry a BP, steth and some 4x4s in my car but the BP and steth have gone missing. I always carry a CPR mask on my keychain as I have little desire to to mouth to mouth without protection. However the Galls bag is meant for professional use in an ambulance or some sort of on-call situation. I'd personally suggest you not go with that bag but rather something much more basic.


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## Shishkabob

If you weren't specifically trained on it's use, don't use it.


Basically, any medications;
    1 Ipecac Syrup 
    1 Charcoal 
    1 Ammonia Inhalant 
    1 Insta-Glucose 

As each drug has specific indications and contraindications, uses, and other attributes.  You don't know the 5 rights yet, let alone when to use each drug properly.


I don't know if they told you how to use the OPA's or NPA's in your classes, and while not hard, is better to not use without the knowledge, like never use an NPA on someone with facial trauma.


A pack I was thinking about making would be the basics--- pocket mask,  some 4x4s, maybe an abd pad, gloves of various sizes, my steth and shears, a couple curvattes,  and some kerlix.  That would handle the majority of the things you'll come across that you can actually help with before a fully stocked ambulance arrives.


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## Hockey

I can betcha you won't use 99% of that stuff in that bag when "off duty"


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## EMTCop86

Linuss said:


> If you weren't specifically trained on it's use, don't use it.


 
And here ladies and gentlemen is the best piece of advice of the century!


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## vquintessence

*Plastic bags highly recommended!*

Yeah I'd save your money, especially if you're heading for med school.  A bag is a bag is a bag!  Highly recommend for private use is the super market brand plastic bag.  Maybe even double bagged!  No need to look professional (unless you're lookin to impress some drunk college girl in crisis ).

Like Linuss said, all ya really might need/ever use will be the gloves, pocket mask, bandages, cravat and some kling.  If ya really want to go all out throw in a BP cuff.


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## firecoins

I am always looking to impress drunk college girls. I don't need a crisis.


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## trevor1189

Well thanks guys, I appreciate those of you who actually answered my question. And FYI I travel 200 miles a week on the highway every weekend to and from school. First semester alone I have come across 3 accidents. So we'll see about never having to use 99% of it. But I appreciate your input anyway.


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## Sapphyre

:headdesk: ?


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## marineman

Trevor, most of those things will be of no use as your first job when arriving on scene is to call 911, your next job is to take C-spine. Since clearing C-spine is definitely not something you're trained in, you take it and don't let go until the ambulance gets there. Only reason you give up on C-spine is if they're dead and you have to do CPR all alone.

P.S. check your state Good Samaritan law. You are not technically certified in anything and you don't have a duty to respond so you have a lot more wiggle room within the law as far as what you can do. 

Just remember as long as you don't make them any worse, you will be fine.


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## trevor1189

By the way here is some information on the course I am taking:
Upon completion of this course, the student will be able to:
1.	Acquire and develop the skills and competencies needed for First Responder Certification in CPR/AED, First Aid and Safety from the American Red Cross and/or National Safety Council.
2.	Understand the role of the Emergency Medical System (EMS) and the importance of emergency care.
3.	Recognize and evaluate a diverse set of emergency medical situations.
4.	Utilize primary and secondary assessment skills to determine alterations in specific body systems.
5.	Initiate appropriate first aid sequences for each emergency situation.
6.	Incorporate knowledge of disease transmission and scene safety when providing emergency care.
7.	Identify and understand the legal implications of providing care under the Good Samaritan Act.

Syllabus:
COURSE SCHEDULE AND TOPICS
(Schedule is subject to change)
									Assignments/
Dates			Course Schedule				Readings
Week # 1
Jan 12,14,16
			Introduction/Course Outline			
Course Expectations
Introduction to First Aid				Chapter 1
Anatomy and Physiology of Body Systems		Chapter 2

Week # 2
Jan 21, 23	
			Victim Assessment				Chapter 3
			Artificial Ventilations/Obstructed Airway		Chapter 4
			Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation (CPR) & AED	Chapter 5
	**Demonstration/practice Artificial Ventilations/Obstructed Airway

Week # 3
Jan 26,28,30		
			Bleeding and Shock				Chapter 6
			Soft-Tissue Injuries				Chapter 7
			Injuries to the Face, Eye, and Throat		Chapter 8
	**Review/Practice CPR

Week # 4
Feb 2,4,6		
			Injuries to the Chest, Abdomen & Genitalia		Chapter 9
			Dressing & Bandaging				Chapter 10

	**Demonstration on Bandaging Techniques

Week # 5
Feb 9,11,13
Feb 9			Musculoskeletal Injuries				Chapter 10
			Common Sport and Recreational Injuries		Chapter 12
			Head and Spine Injuries				Chapter 13

Week # 6		
Feb 16,18,20	
			Poisoning Emergencies				Chapter 14
			Drug and Alcohol Related Emergencies		Chapter 15
			REVIEW FOR MID-TERM

	**Review/Practice CPR and Bandaging Skills

Week # 7
Feb 23, 25, 27	
			MID-TERM EXAM				Chapters 1-15
Cardiovascular and Stroke Emergencies		Chapter 16
			Respiratory Emergencies				Chapter 17
			Diabetic Emergencies				Chapter 18



Week # 8
Mar 2,4,6		Acute Abdominal Distress				Chapter 19
			Epilepsy, Dizziness, and Fainting			Chapter 20

	**Review/Practice CPR skills


MARCH 9-13 ***SPRING BREAK**	NO CLASSES

Week # 9
Mar 16,18,20		
			Emergency Childbirth				Chapter 21
			Geriatric Emergencies				Chapter 22
			Bites and Stings					Chapter 23

	**Review/Practice CPR Skills

Week # 10
Mar 23,25,27		
			Burn Emergencies				Chapter 24
			Heat and Cold Emergencies			Chapter 25
			Water Emergencies				Chapter 26

	**AMERICAN RED CROSS WRITTEN EXAMS

Week # 11
Mar 30
Apr 1,3		
			Wilderness Emergencies				Chapter 27
			Psychological and Disaster Emergencies		Chapter 28

Week # 12
Apr 6,8,10
		Lifting and Moving Victims			Chapter 29
			Vehicle and Victim Stabilization			Chapter 30

	**Review/Practice CPR,AED, Bandaging Skills

Week # 13
Apr 13.15.17
Review/Practice for Skills Practical Exam

Week # 14
Apr 20,22,24
Apr 20			NO CLASS	

Apr 24			FINAL WRITTEN EXAM			Chapters 16-30

Week # 15
Apr 27,29
May 1			
			Skill Presentations


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## Sapphyre

Trevor, I've done that course, WAY back in 2001.  You will not be able to legally use 99% of the stuff in your bag.  Sure, you can use a BVM on a patient that's not breathing...  You could even put a c-collar on someone post MVC, but, once you take that class, you'll find out, that you by yourself won't be able to do much, even with your bag.  And, yes, I've done similar drives, in even more desolate areas, still, the only thing I carry regularly is my cellphone, and maybe a box of gloves, if I'm in my car, I've got a scope, just because it lives in my work backpack, which lives in either my car or my rig.  Off duty, the best thing I can do for any patients I come across is get them the transport they need.

You will be MUCH better off once you internalize this.   Take it from someone with experience.


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## motownems

I am not sure about the legality part, however other than that I completely agree with Sapphyre.  Some 4x4, kling, gloves, packet mask, and a cell phone or you could kick it old school and put a CB in your vehicle  .  I don’t remember who said that thing about having to take C-spine, but that is 100% true.


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## mikie

*The Ultimate WhackPack!*

I don't even think our bags are this stocked!







Source


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## Hockey

trevor1189 said:


> Well thanks guys, I appreciate those of you who actually answered my question. And FYI I travel 200 miles a week on the highway every weekend to and from school. First semester alone I have come across 3 accidents. So we'll see about never having to use 99% of it. But I appreciate your input anyway.



Do you have a cell phone?  Thats all you need.  I'm a newish EMT and I think the cell phone is the best thing you can have as an EMT/Civie


And how many of these 3 accidents were there no responders already on?  So are you going to stop at an accident that already has an ambulance?  


Don't forget, if you stop on any road, you need a high visibility vest.  If you don't have it, and have it on properly, just remember, your in violation of *FEDERAL LAW*

I'm not trying to tell you to not help someone who needs help.  But I'm trying to save you $$ since you won't (I'll say it again) use 99% of that stuff in the bag.

Seriously, we know you want to help and "be prepared", but honestly, its useless to have all that _junk_.

Oh well...we tried...


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## trevor1189

Hockey9019 said:


> Do you have a cell phone?  Thats all you need.  I'm a newish EMT and I think the cell phone is the best thing you can have as an EMT/Civie
> 
> 
> And how many of these 3 accidents were there no responders already on?  So are you going to stop at an accident that already has an ambulance?
> 
> 
> Don't forget, if you stop on any road, you need a high visibility vest.  If you don't have it, and have it on properly, just remember, your in violation of *FEDERAL LAW*
> 
> I'm not trying to tell you to not help someone who needs help.  But I'm trying to save you $$ since you won't (I'll say it again) use 99% of that stuff in the bag.
> 
> Seriously, we know you want to help and "be prepared", but honestly, its useless to have all that _junk_.
> 
> Oh well...we tried...



yes i do already have a high visibility orange vest as part of the roadside kit i keep my car. Along with tow cables, flares, jumper cables, emergency blankets, road triangles, flashlights, etc.


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## trevor1189

Hockey9019 said:


> Do you have a cell phone?  Thats all you need.  I'm a newish EMT and I think the cell phone is the best thing you can have as an EMT/Civie
> 
> 
> And how many of these 3 accidents were there no responders already on?  So are you going to stop at an accident that already has an ambulance?
> 
> 
> Don't forget, if you stop on any road, you need a high visibility vest.  If you don't have it, and have it on properly, just remember, your in violation of *FEDERAL LAW*
> 
> I'm not trying to tell you to not help someone who needs help.  But I'm trying to save you $$ since you won't (I'll say it again) use 99% of that stuff in the bag.
> 
> Seriously, we know you want to help and "be prepared", but honestly, its useless to have all that _junk_.
> 
> Oh well...we tried...



and yes i actually have two cell phones, one is for emergencies related to disabled family members that wear life pendants. If they are activated my second phone esentially acts as a pager. They push the button life alert activates ems and notifies me on my emergency phone.


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## exodus

trevor1189 said:


> and yes i actually have two cell phones, one is for emergencies related to disabled family members that wear life pendants. If they are activated my second phone esentially acts as a pager. They push the button life alert activates ems and notifies me on my emergency phone.



Which is pointless because life alert can simply call your one cell phone. If they have the wrong number, all you do is press the call button on the life-alert station and then when the life alert dispatcher comes on, give them the safety code, and have them switch the numbers.


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## trevor1189

exodus said:


> Which is pointless because life alert can simply call your one cell phone. If they have the wrong number, all you do is press the call button on the life-alert station and then when the life alert dispatcher comes on, give them the safety code, and have them switch the numbers.



because my first phone is an iphone and i don't leave it on loud because i get texts in the middle of the night. The emergency phone is on loud with an annoying beeping tone which wakes me up in the middle of the night.


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## marineman

2 cell phones, a fancy bag you don't need, and a $130 stethoscope you don't need... You can't afford to be an EMT.

P.S. what's that word I'm trying to think of, it starts with a W and rhymes with hacker?


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## trevor1189

marineman said:


> 2 cell phones, a fancy bag you don't need, and a $130 stethoscope you don't need... You can't afford to be an EMT.
> 
> P.S. what's that word I'm trying to think of, it starts with a W and rhymes with hacker?



You know nothing about me or my family. What I choose to do with my money is my choice. None of your business.


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## bstone

marineman said:


> 2 cell phones, a fancy bag you don't need, and a $130 stethoscope you don't need... You can't afford to be an EMT.
> 
> P.S. what's that word I'm trying to think of, it starts with a W and rhymes with hacker?



That was entirely uncalled for, marineman. Didn't your mother ever say if you have nothing nice to say then say nothing at all?

There is a way to disagree and there is a way to be insulting. Don't do the latter, please.


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## ffemt8978

Knock it off...


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## ffemt8978

trevor1189 said:


> Well thanks guys, I appreciate those of you who actually answered my question. And FYI I travel 200 miles a week on the highway every weekend to and from school. First semester alone I have come across 3 accidents. So we'll see about never having to use 99% of it. But I appreciate your input anyway.




And I travel 150-300 miles per day...and have come across a couple of dozen accidents.  In my experience, these people generally fall into one of three categories.

They are completely uninjured (or refuse all treatment), minor injuries (in which case you may be able to help them with your kit but they'll be just fine without it too), or the are critical (in which case the best you can do is call for help, maintain cspine/airway).


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## karaya

marineman said:


> 2 cell phones, a fancy bag you don't need, and a $130 stethoscope you don't need... You can't afford to be an EMT.
> 
> P.S. what's that word I'm trying to think of, it starts with a W and rhymes with hacker?


 
There's nothing wrong with whackers. Looking back about 30 some odd years ago I guess I was one. Carried a big green fishing tackle box loaded with tons of medical gear. I was ready to save the world!! But, alas most of the stuff grew old and outdated from very little use and the big green box soon made it's way out of my vehicle on a permanent basis.

But what I did have, and I've seen this with many other so called whackers, is that I had a passion to help others no matter what. If it was another BS frequent flier, so what? I figure that's part of the biz and I always strive to keep a positive attitude toward my patient care. I think this helped make me a better medic.

This passion as I described seems to be missing more and more in EMS today. Many crews that I ride with constantly belly-ache about every call and behave as if their license as an EMT or medic grants them the privilege of only responding to calls that meet their approval. Anything else is beneath them.

I liked what I saw here in some of the posts. I saw some individuals show that although they may be new to EMS, they were excited to share the equipment that they proudly purchased to help others even at the risk of being dubbed a whacker. They just may turn out to be damn fine medics in their future.


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## trevor1189

karaya said:


> There's nothing wrong with whackers. Looking back about 30 some odd years ago I guess I was one. Carried a big green fishing tackle box loaded with tons of medical gear. I was ready to save the world!! But, alas most of the stuff grew old and outdated from very little use and the big green box soon made it's way out of my vehicle on a permanent basis.
> 
> But what I did have, and I've seen this with many other so called whackers, is that I had a passion to help others no matter what. If it was another BS frequent flier, so what? I figure that's part of the biz and I always strive to keep a positive attitude toward my patient care. I think this helped make me a better medic.
> 
> This passion as I described seems to be missing more and more in EMS today. Many crews that I ride with constantly belly-ache about every call and behave as if their license as an EMT or medic grants them the privilege of only responding to calls that meet their approval. Anything else is beneath them.
> 
> I liked what I saw here in some of the posts. I saw some individuals show that although they may be new to EMS, they were excited to share the equipment that they proudly purchased to help others even at the risk of being dubbed a whacker. They just may turn out to be damn fine medics in their future.


Thanks guys, i guess some of the posts i've seen don't represent the entire forum. I'm glad at least some people realize I really do have a desire to help people and am not just trying to impress people with fancy equipment.


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## trevor1189

bstone said:


> That was entirely uncalled for, marineman. Didn't your mother ever say if you have nothing nice to say then say nothing at all?
> 
> There is a way to disagree and there is a way to be insulting. Don't do the latter, please.


thank you bstone. I completely agree.


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## Vonny

trevor1189 said:


> Well thanks guys, I appreciate those of you who actually answered my question. And FYI I travel 200 miles a week on the highway every weekend to and from school. First semester alone I have come across 3 accidents. So we'll see about never having to use 99% of it. But I appreciate your input anyway.



Thats right Trevor. The first time you will need something is the first time you  go out without it.  I carry a jump bag in the car with enough bits and bobs to handle a lot of things. 

When I am not out in the car though I carry very little, a keychain mask and some small bandage type stuff depending on which jacket I have on.And always have the keys to the local AED boxes.


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## fortsmithman

Trevor if you want ti carry a trauma bag in your POV then go for it.  You never know where or when you might need it.  With the service i'm a member of most of the other members have a trauma bag in their POV's.  So buy one and put it in you car.


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## trevor1189

Thanks guys i got one for my car and I got the number of my local fire deptarments so i can work on getting my emt-b certification. Thanks for the encouragement.


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## mikie

am I a whacker since my new car came with a big first aid kit in the trunk?  :unsure:


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## Shishkabob

mikie said:


> am I a whacker since my new car came with a big first aid kit in the trunk?  :unsure:



Do you look forward to the day of using it?


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## csly27

I just compleated and passed my emt-b course last week, now I am just waiting for my ride a long so I can take the NREMT. I am also a medical ***. a member of my local cert team and mom of 4boys. I always carry basic stuff in my car. 4x4s, roller banages, band-aids, peroxide, wipe pads. emergency blanket, water, stuff like that. It never fails when we go anywhere one of my boys will get hurt. espechally the park or one of the other kids at the park will get an sml injury. I have come to find that there is not a lot of people prepard. When you have kids how can you not be. I think that you can be prepared and not be a whacker or whatever they are called. It is about being prepared and wanting and able to help when and where you can.

I am not saying that everyone should become an ambulance chaser, and if your not trained the only thing that should be done is a call to 911. If more people were legitamitly trained to help in emergency That would be a good thing.


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## mikie

csly27 said:


> ... and mom of 4boys. I always carry basic stuff in my car. 4x4s, roller banages, band-aids, peroxide, wipe pads. emergency blanket, water, stuff like that. It never fails when we go anywhere one of my boys will get hurt. espechally the park or one of the other kids at the park will get an sml injury. I have come to find that there is not a lot of people prepard. When you have kids how can you not be. I think that you can be prepared and not be a whacker or whatever they are called. It is about being prepared and wanting and able to help when and where you can.



You have an exception...kids.  They're probably not going to sue you if you improperly treat them.  There is a difference between carrying some first aid stuff you know you're going to use for your kids.  It's another thing if your pulling over at MVAs or whatever and trying to render treatment with a few band-aids.


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## csly27

No I dont think so, having kids just ensures that I am a little more prepared than others. If i was driving around and came across  a mvc, the first thing I would do is call for an ambulance, after that i would try and secure the scene as best as possible then triage so when help did arrive I would be able to let them know what they were looking at. I would not do anything other than what i could, If that means holding c-spine or just staying close to a pt that is scared till ems arrives. I know that I am prepared to help if needed. As long as you dont cause more harm than good you will fall under good sam. 

I have training that I need and I feel that I will do what I can when I can. That is why I got the training to begin with to help people. I am not saying That I would drive around all day looking for stuff to happen but if I come across something I am not gonna just roll on by and hope someone else is gonna stop. So again no I dont think having kids is an exception to being prepared. Mostly it is common sence and compassion.


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## nomofica

A BLS kit like that is a bit overkill, even for a "car kit". Like other users have said, if you're not trained in it [insert device/product here] you're best off not using it.

Really, all you REALLY need are a CPR mask, gloves, basic bandages (4x4's and such), scissors, tweezers, some pins, maybe a flashlight and a small notepad/pencil, sterilizer/alcohol pads and, of course, a safety blanket.


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## Melclin

There seems to be this odd culture on this board of doing/having the barest of minimums and doing otherwise makes you some kind of tryhard/nerd-whacker. 

Maybe you'll never "need" some of that stuff. But if you happen to get into a situation where it would have been handy to have, but the person would have lived without it, then I reckon you'd still get a nice feeling from having there.

If money isn't too much of an issue, then I don't see why it wouldn't be nice to just have it there. And as far as the stethoscope issue goes (I don't think it was really part of your question Trev, but marineman mentioned it and my sentiments can be generalised to more than stethoscopes), the better the stethoscope, the more likely you are to hear things that matter and that aren't background noise (shocking I know). If you asked a builder about his drill, I bet not too many buy a $20 set from K-Mart. It's a tool of your trade that you use almost everyday, and if you take pride in doing what you do well, then you should have good quality equipment to do it with, I reckon. I know that you don't "need" a master cardiology to take blood pressure, but if someone wants to have one for the odd occasion when it may come in handy, then good on them. I don't know why some of the people on this bored walk around with a scope made by matel and think they are somehow cooler for it.


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## Flight-LP

Melclin said:


> There seems to be this odd culture on this board of doing/having the barest of minimums and doing otherwise makes you some kind of tryhard/nerd-whacker.
> 
> Maybe you'll never "need" some of that stuff. But if you happen to get into a situation where it would have been handy to have, but the person would have lived without it, then I reckon you'd still get a nice feeling from having there.
> 
> If money isn't too much of an issue, then I don't see why it wouldn't be nice to just have it there. And as far as the stethoscope issue goes (I don't think it was really part of your question Trev, but marineman mentioned it and my sentiments can be generalised to more than stethoscopes), the better the stethoscope, the more likely you are to hear things that matter and that aren't background noise (shocking I know). If you asked a builder about his drill, I bet not too many buy a $20 set from K-Mart. It's a tool of your trade that you use almost everyday, and if you take pride in doing what you do well, then you should have good quality equipment to do it with, I reckon. I know that you don't "need" a master cardiology to take blood pressure, but if someone wants to have one for the odd occasion when it may come in handy, then good on them. I don't know why some of the people on this bored walk around with a scope made by matel and think they are somehow cooler for it.



It would appear that way, yes.

However, you all do it a little differently "down south". In the USA, many off-duty EMT's elect to have their own equipment to use. The problem lies in that most have no medical direction in their off duty time, have no duty to act, and usually are not protected under their departments insurance policy should an issue arise. Then there is also the view of immediate need. Is that EMT a help or a hinderance? 

My personal view on this topic is that when I am off duty, I am off duty and will not stop. I have a cell phone and will use it as needed. I will not pull off on the side of some road when my kids are with me to potentially get run over, shot at, or injured in some other fashion. My area has fantastic EMS and they are well capable of handling things without my assistance.

Also, as a veteran professional, I see compensation as another factor. If I provide medical care, I expect to be compensated for it. My knowledge and expertise in this field is not free. 

Now don't get me wrong, I will volunteer for some fundraiser's and community cause's, but I'm not risking myself, my career, or my family's livelihood for someone elses emergency that I am not obligated to address. Therefore, I carry no other equipment than what I would need for me and my family.


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## frdude1000

Wow...Your a whack job.  You bought a HUGE go bag, similar to the bag we use on the ambo and you only have 12 hrs of basic first aid and cpr training.  Whats next, lights and some o2?  Just buy a 10 dollar first aid kit all wallmart.  Your not even a first responder.  What if you dont pass emt?  You will probably never come about a serious incident in your car, and if you do, you can call 911.  If you really want to have some ems stuff in your first aid kit, get some abd's, gloves, and pen and paper.  You just wasted $260!


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## trevor1189

Just an update I do keep the kit in the "trunk" of my jeep. I have used it numerous times. I have replaced a lot of the stuff that has been used up or not used with stuff I use more often.

Excellent for when out with friends and family with minor injuries. Also help take care of my elderly grandmother and the bp and steth come in handy with her hx of HTN.

Also you'd be surprised how many non medical uses there are for medical supplies. ^_^


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## EDAC

*Good for you*

I was raised to always be willing to help someone if you can. I think if you have training and you can provide assistance there is really no reason why you should'nt. Just because you don't have to or are not paid to do so, does not mean you should not. I think sometimes we forget about just being human and doing for others because it is the right thing to do. Many people have lost their lives helping others who needed assistance, even if it was not their job. We have become such a callous society, if its not our problem, just ingnore it, don't get involved, or wait for someone else to do something. I have witnessed a few accidents and have always stopped to offer assistance even if it is just a kind word, or just for them to know that some one does care about their situation. Kindness should not be difficult, it should come from the heart, and be done not for compensation, but because it is the right thing to do. If you expect something in return, then you probably just move along and not stop.


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## Melclin

Flight-LP said:


> It would appear that way, yes.
> 
> However, you all do it a little differently "down south". In the USA, many off-duty EMT's elect to have their own equipment to use. The problem lies in that most have no medical direction in their off duty time, have no duty to act, and usually are not protected under their departments insurance policy should an issue arise. Then there is also the view of immediate need. Is that EMT a help or a hinderance?



Yeah fair enough about the medical direction thing I suppose. I don't really understand alot about your systems, but I can't see that there would be that much direction involved in some BLS or basic trauma care. Still like I said, I know bugger all about how your system works. Is there some sort of resource through which I could learn about some of the basics on which the American systems are built? We covered it a bit at university, but I get the feeling it was a bit biased. 

As far as insurance goes, well different cultures again. The idea that helping someone might be thrown back in your face legally is foreign to me. The "Good Samaritan" (whether they be a trained health professional or not) acting reasonably in good faith is protected by law here.




Flight-LP said:


> shot



Oh golly, haha, not something we worry about too much here. With the very occasional exception, if you happen to be a dutch tourist ...I shouldn't laugh..poor bugger.

Trev, mate, if you wanna help people out who are in trouble, good for you, keep it up. Just be careful, with the gear, and make sure you know how to use it.


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## mycrofft

*Dang, some harsh replies there.*

Yes, Mikie, you are a whacker if you keep that new car with the big first aid kit. I can save you from that, we can meet tomorrow and trade pink slips, you will like my 1999 Volvo much more, and I promise ther are no preparedness materials in there.
Probably.B)


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## JPINFV

Melclin said:


> There seems to be this odd culture on this board of doing/having the barest of minimums and doing otherwise makes you some kind of tryhard/nerd-whacker.


There's a difference between owning a properly stocked first aid kit (really only need the basics. ACE bandages, band aids, gauze, maybe an ice pack, etc) and having a bag that turns a POV into a first response unit. Basically if you can't pick it up at CVS, Rite Aid, or any other store that provides basic first aid supplies, then you really don't need it for personal use. 


> Maybe you'll never "need" some of that stuff. But if you happen to get into a situation where it would have been handy to have, but the person would have lived without it, then I reckon you'd still get a nice feeling from having there.


The problem is that you really don't need most of that stuff anyways. You don't need 15 splints, 40 4x4s, burn sheets, DI water or saline, or most of the other stuff on an ambulance. You don't need a collar, most cars have supplies that can be jerry rigged into a splint if need be. You don't need a BVM (pocket mask is easier to pack and less expensive), and you don't need O2. Want something with sugar, carry a power bar or something. Besides, most of those supplies are not the difference between life and death and not really all that important until it comes time to move the patient. 


> If money isn't too much of an issue, then I don't see why it wouldn't be nice to just have it there. And as far as the stethoscope issue goes (I don't think it was really part of your question Trev, but marineman mentioned it and my sentiments can be generalised to more than stethoscopes), the better the stethoscope, the more likely you are to hear things that matter and that aren't background noise (shocking I know). If you asked a builder about his drill, I bet not too many buy a $20 set from K-Mart. It's a tool of your trade that you use almost everyday, and if you take pride in doing what you do well, then you should have good quality equipment to do it with, I reckon. I know that you don't "need" a master cardiology to take blood pressure, but if someone wants to have one for the odd occasion when it may come in handy, then good on them. I don't know why some of the people on this bored walk around with a scope made by matel and think they are somehow cooler for it.



There's a few big difference between a builder having a fancy drill and EMTs (B/P, but especially B) having fancy spancy steths. First, the builder is, in many cases, is expected to supply some of their own equipment. EMS, in general, is not really expected to supply anything more than a pair of shears, which in many cases is supplied in jump bags and on the ambulance anyways. 

Second, in order to appropriately compare EMTs carrying equipment off duty and the builder, the builder would need to be prepared to stop at any construction site or at any house doing home maintenance and offer his/her services for free to the construction site or homeowner. I doubt that this happens all that much.


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## Shishkabob

JPINFV said:


> Second, in order to appropriately compare EMTs carrying equipment off duty and the builder, the builder would need to be prepared to stop at any construction site or at any house doing home maintenance and offer his/her services for free to the construction site or homeowner. I doubt that this happens all that much.



Because building a house and holding C-spine are SOOO alike.


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## JPINFV

The only supplies you need to hold c-spine is a pair of gloves, not a wacker kit. Besides, the biggest difference between holding c-spine and building a house is that building a house is actually useful whereas the jury is still very much out on spinal precautions.


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## Shishkabob

JPINFV said:


> The only supplies you need to hold c-spine is a pair of gloves, not a wacker kit. Besides, the biggest difference between holding c-spine and building a house is that building a house is actually useful whereas the jury is still very much out on spinal precautions.



You don't need a house to live, you need a proper spinal alignment to live.


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## JPINFV

Please cite journal articles that show the efficacy of spinal immbolization in regards ot the prevention of secondary spinal injury.


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## Flight-LP

EDAC said:


> I was raised to always be willing to help someone if you can. I think if you have training and you can provide assistance there is really no reason why you should'nt. Just because you don't have to or are not paid to do so, does not mean you should not. I think sometimes we forget about just being human and doing for others because it is the right thing to do. Many people have lost their lives helping others who needed assistance, even if it was not their job. We have become such a callous society, if its not our problem, just ingnore it, don't get involved, or wait for someone else to do something. I have witnessed a few accidents and have always stopped to offer assistance even if it is just a kind word, or just for them to know that some one does care about their situation. Kindness should not be difficult, it should come from the heart, and be done not for compensation, but because it is the right thing to do. If you expect something in return, then you probably just move along and not stop.



No offense my friend, but spoken like a true student...................

Re-visit this topic with a few years of reality under your belt and see if your opinion changes. There are a multitude of reasons why off duty assistance is not given. These include, but are not limited to:

Liability
Safety
Liability
Safety
Liability
Safety

You get the picture. Many of us know we risk pesonal safety, possibly family safety if they are with us. Also, many EMT's and Paramedics are NOT covered under applicable insurance unbrellas for off duty responses. You also do not fall under most good samaritan laws as you are a trained medical responder and probably identified as such. To add to the enjoyment of hungry lawyers out there, if you are a Paramedic and do not perform care to your level of training on a scene, you are open and subject to scrutiny in court. Think it doesn't happen? Think again my friend. Ask other veterans on this site, I think you will find similar thoughts.

Its not that we are horrible people. But society has made us protect our interests. My family and financial security are my top priority behind my faith in Christ. Sorry if you see it as "calloused", I am extremely kindhearted and caring towards my patients, but I will not set out on a crusade to save the world. Nor will "kindness from the heart" put $$$ in my bank account. This isn't my hobby, this is my career......................


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## EDAC

Flight-LP said:


> No offense my friend, but spoken like a true student...................
> 
> Re-visit this topic with a few years of reality under your belt and see if your opinion changes. There are a multitude of reasons why off duty assistance is not given. These include, but are not limited to:
> 
> Liability
> Safety
> Liability
> Safety
> Liability
> Safety
> 
> You get the picture. Many of us know we risk pesonal safety, possibly family safety if they are with us. Also, many EMT's and Paramedics are NOT covered under applicable insurance unbrellas for off duty responses. You also do not fall under most good samaritan laws as you are a trained medical responder and probably identified as such. To add to the enjoyment of hungry lawyers out there, if you are a Paramedic and do not perform care to your level of training on a scene, you are open and subject to scrutiny in court. Think it doesn't happen? Think again my friend. Ask other veterans on this site, I think you will find similar thoughts.
> 
> Its not that we are horrible people. But society has made us protect our interests. My family and financial security are my top priority behind my faith in Christ. Sorry if you see it as "calloused", I am extremely kindhearted and caring towards my patients, but I will not set out on a crusade to save the world. Nor will "kindness from the heart" put $$$ in my bank account. This isn't my hobby, this is my career......................



Money can be repalced, a human life cannot.


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## JPINFV

Oh sweet idealism. How sweet thy are yet how hard thy falls.


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## EDAC

JPINFV said:


> Oh sweet idealism. How sweet thy are yet how hard thy falls.



OK, whatever. 

Could'nt you be held liable if the coin were reversed? Say for example you came upon an accident scene and because of the liability you may suffer, you keep on truckin'. Someone who knows you, sees you and knows your training, asks why if you could provide assistance you did not. The accident victims family gets wind of it and sues you for not helping knowing you were there and could have helped and did nothing. Is not that a possibility as well? We are held accountable everyday for what we do as well as what we do not do.


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## JPINFV

Sure, some areas have a duty to respond even when off duty. Of course the chance of being recognized is next to zero unless your car is decked out with EMT stickers. The motto of that story is don't advertise that you're an EMT.

Of course if you stop and get injured then you are out of work without workman's comp and your family has no income. You fall behind on your mortgage payments, your house is foreclosed on, and your family is now homeless. But, hey, money is replaceable, right? All of that to stop on a scene where the vast majority of time any injuries would require tools not available in even the wacker packs (access to the patient, extrication, the ability to transport, etc). Even then, very few incidents are incidents where injuries are life threatening in the span of seconds or minutes.


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## EDAC

You could be injured to the point of not being able to work just by walking out the door each day. Granted you shpould not help the situation along, by doing something to put yourself in harms way. But I just do not think helping someone in need qualifies. And yes money is replaceable, and if it is your guiding light of life, that's unfortunate. Its not mine, it used to be, but not anymore.


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## JPINFV

EDAC said:


> Granted you shpould not help the situation along, by doing something to put yourself in harms way. But I just do not think helping someone in need qualifies.



Are you honestly suggesting that situations where other people are in need are free from danger? 

I agree that money is not the guiding light, but it is still pretty damn important and shouldn't be discounted. Otherwise remember that statement next time you go to your boss for a raise.


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## EDAC

JPINFV said:


> Are you honestly suggesting that situations where other people are in need are free from danger?



That is not what I was saying at all.



JPINFV said:


> I agree that money is not the guiding light, but it is still pretty damn important and shouldn't be discounted. Otherwise remember that statement next time you go to your boss for a raise.



I do not have a boss (unless you count my wife), and everytime I needed a raise, I did what was necessary, longer hours, more days, more customer contacts, & fewer non-necessities. Money is the easiest thing in the world to get, it can be done with little education, or formal training, just go where others are making it and begin there. For the most part it is as easy as a good work ethic, dedication and a relentless drive for it.


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## Sasha

EDAC said:


> Money can be repalced, a human life cannot.



A human life cannot, exactly. But let's think of it this way, what if it's YOUR life that can't be replaced? 

Here are two examples of bystanders who rendered aid getting killed, I'm sure others here can provide more. The first one hits VERY close to home.

http://warchild.blog-city.com/biketoberfest_deaths_sad_tragic_random.htm


http://fallenbrothers.com/community/archive/index.php/t-2275.html


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## reaper

Superman syndrome! Out to save the whole world.


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## EDAC

Sasha said:


> A human life cannot, exactly. But let's think of it this way, what if it's YOUR life that can't be replaced?
> 
> Here are two examples of bystanders who rendered aid getting killed, I'm sure others here can provide more. The first one hits VERY close to home.
> 
> http://warchild.blog-city.com/biketoberfest_deaths_sad_tragic_random.htm
> 
> 
> http://fallenbrothers.com/community/archive/index.php/t-2275.html



Very sad, indeed and an excellent point.


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## EDAC

reaper said:


> Superman syndrome! Out to save the whole world.



A bit to the extreme, is'nt it? I don't recall reading anywhere where anyone claimed to be superhuman or to save the world. As I recall it was about assisting those in need, and whether or not it should be done. It just would'nt be a complete day without taking a shot at another member(s).

Why can't someone make an arguement without some form belittlement? Sasha made a very good point along with some very sobering examples which are very thought provoking. An excellent way to make a meaningful point.


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## daedalus

EDAC said:


> A bit to the extreme, is'nt it? I don't recall reading anywhere where anyone claimed to be superhuman or to save the world. As I recall it was about assisting those in need, and whether or not it should be done. It just would'nt be a complete day without taking a shot at another member(s).
> 
> Why can't someone make an arguement without some form belittlement? Sasha made a very good point along with some very sobering examples which are very thought provoking. An excellent way to make a meaningful point.



Not that extreme. What about the right for your wife to have her husband around? Kids?

You can get killed when you stop to help, you can get sued when you stop to help, you can get fired, etc.


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## Melclin

daedalus said:


> Not that extreme. What about the right for your wife to have her husband around? Kids?
> 
> You can get killed when you stop to help, you can get sued when you stop to help, you can get fired, etc.



Well of course you can evaluate each individual situation for dangers and if its unacceptable then so be it. But its a bit much to sit their on your cynical chair saying, I don't help people off duty because I might die. 

I don't understand these arguments where the older guys seem so keen to crush any sense of idealism out of students. Just because you don't immediately scoff at the idea of helping a mate out, doesn't make you some kind of idealistic, superhero wannabe, nut whose out to try and save the world with a BVM. It is possible to be positive and realistic at the same time.


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## JPINFV

Melclin said:


> Just because you don't immediately scoff at the idea of helping a mate out, doesn't make you some kind of idealistic, superhero wannabe, nut whose out to try and save the world with a BVM. It is possible to be positive and realistic at the same time.


Yea, but at least in my experience, the odds are against it. There simply are too many nuts out there who thinks that their wacker pack is going to save the world and are willing to put down way too much money for a scanner just for the opportunity to jump calls. I've seen it here and I've seen it in real life.


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## Flight-LP

EDAC said:


> Why can't someone make an arguement without some form belittlement? Sasha made a very good point along with some very sobering examples which are very thought provoking. An excellent way to make a meaningful point.



I did, you chose not to acknowledge or listen.................

Sorry, but you are a student with no practical knowledge or experience in this field. There are very sound reasons, that you will learn with time, as to why different folks do different things. I come from an area that does not have a duty to act. Therefore, no I am not under any obligation to assist. We also have a well organized, paid, ALS service that runs 24/7 with solid FD 1st response. My assistance is not needed. Bad things happen to good people, but one of the first concepts that you need to impregnate into your head is that the emergency is not yours, it is the patients. You can call it what you wish, but the second you place the emotional belief that "you have to save the day always" into your response, you have lost effective control of yourself and the ability to use critical thinking. You have to stay unbiased. You will learn this with experience.

We can all appreciate where you coming from and it does give me a warm fuzzy feeling knowing there are people that care, but you have to keep it in check. Sometimes that means not getting involved.

Sasha said it best; "what if it's YOUR life that can't be replaced?"

It happens.................


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## Shishkabob

JPINFV said:


> Please cite journal articles that show the efficacy of spinal immbolization in regards ot the prevention of secondary spinal injury.




Come on man, you know it's impossible to prove that something didn't happen because of spinal precautions. 


Better safe than sorry--- the cliche holds true.


But, if you disagree, by all means when you're in an MVC, refuse a C-collar and a long board / KED.  Walk yourself to the rig.


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## JPINFV

Out-of-hospital Spinal Immobilization: Its Effect on Neurologic Injury



> ABSTRACT
> 
> Objective: To examine the effect of emergency immobilization on neurologic outcome of patients who have blunt traumatic spinal injuries.
> 
> Methods: A 5-year retrospective chart review was carried out at 2 university hospitals. All patients with acute blunt traumatic spinal or spinal cord injuries transported directly from the injury site to the hospital were entered. None of the 120 patients seen at the University of Malaya had spinal immobilization during transport, whereas all 334 patients seen at the University of New Mexico did. The 2 hospitals were comparable in physician training and clinical resources. Neurologic injuries were assigned to 2 categories, disabling or not disabling, by 2 physicians acting independently and blinded to the hospital of origin. Data were analyzed using multivariate logistic regression, with hospital location, patient age, gender, anatomic level of injury, and injury mechanism serving as explanatory variables.
> 
> Results: There was less neurologic disability in the unimmobilized Malaysian patients (OR 2.03; 95% CI 1.03–3.99; p = 0.04). This corresponds to a <2% chance that immobilization has any beneficial effect. Results were similar when the analysis was limited to patients with cervical injuries (OR 1.52; 95% CI 0.64–3.62; p = 0.34).
> 
> Conclusion: Out-of-hospital immobilization has little or no effect on neurologic outcome in patients with blunt spinal injuries.




It is very possible to show that an intervention causes an effect, such as lower secondary injury.


and yea, if I'm in an MVC there's a very good chance that I'm going to refuse voodoo practices. Thanks, but the ability to breath and not get skin breakdown is much more important than making providers feel good that they are 'doing something.'


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## Melclin

Flight-LP said:


> There are very sound reasons, that you will learn with time, as to why different folks do different things. I come from an area that does not have a duty to act. Therefore, no I am not under any obligation to assist. We also have a well organized, paid, ALS service that runs 24/7 with solid FD 1st response. My assistance is not needed. Bad things happen to good people, but one of the first concepts that you need to impregnate into your head is that the emergency is not yours, it is the patients. You can call it what you wish, but the second you place the emotional belief that "you have to save the day always" into your response, you have lost effective control of yourself and the ability to use critical thinking. You have to stay unbiased. You will learn this with experience.



Yeah I absolutely agree. I get the whole the emergency is not yours things and its really important. I just don't see why its necessary to jump down the throats of people who express the slightest interest in helping people out if they come across an injured person, calling them whackers and talking about dying by road sides. 

While we're on the topic of the importance of staying detached and unbias, those of you that stand proudly on their experience should remind yourselves of the dangers of putting personal experience on a pedestal. There's a reason anecdotal accounts don't rank highly on the hierarchy of scientific evidence. I'm not saying experience is useless or anything silly like that. It's just that, other than often being wrong, as far as statistical significance goes, it has a tendency to make you bias on the side of bitterness. My point is that us students are not the only bias ones. *As usual there's probably a healthy middle ground between your wisdom and our idealism, but I don't see how we can get there if you guys are just ganna bite peoples heads off every time they wanna keep some band aids in the car.*


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## EDAC

Flight-LP said:


> I did, you chose not to acknowledge or listen.................
> 
> Sorry, but you are a student with no practical knowledge or experience in this field. There are very sound reasons, that you will learn with time, as to why different folks do different things. I come from an area that does not have a duty to act. Therefore, no I am not under any obligation to assist. We also have a well organized, paid, ALS service that runs 24/7 with solid FD 1st response. My assistance is not needed. Bad things happen to good people, but one of the first concepts that you need to impregnate into your head is that the emergency is not yours, it is the patients. You can call it what you wish, but the second you place the emotional belief that "you have to save the day always" into your response, you have lost effective control of yourself and the ability to use critical thinking. You have to stay unbiased. You will learn this with experience.
> 
> We can all appreciate where you coming from and it does give me a warm fuzzy feeling knowing there are people that care, but you have to keep it in check. Sometimes that means not getting involved.
> 
> Sasha said it best; "what if it's YOUR life that can't be replaced?"
> 
> It happens.................



Actually my comment was in response to the Superman comment. I actually did take the time to read and take in what you had to say. I can only come from one side of things, since that is the only side of things I have seen, up to this point. I do appreciate all the input and advice that is given here, as well as the critsizms. Believe it or not I am here to learn, I constantly have a book in my face or am online trying to educate myself. The other times I am in school or taking classes through home study. I believe the combined knowledge here is the best I have found anywhere else, it does not mean I will not look other places for information as well. 

I have always been the type of person who has tried to help others, if you are pushing your car, I will pull over and help you push, if you are hungry I will give you food, I can't remember the last time i walked by a Salvation Army bell ringer and did not toss in whatever change I have in my pocket. Toys for tots, the list goes on, it is just something I do. Perhaps I need to re-evaluate my stance on the subject at hand here, although I still feel the need to help, maybe it is not always in the best interest. I can look at both sides and see the points being made. 
So yes thank you, I do read the posts, I do try to understand the information being given, sometimes I need to take the time to evaluate and apply to my situation. 
Trust me, I have no desire to save the world, or be superman, we have those people in Washington DC, who think they can do so. I just want to make the right choice and be able to live with it, good or bad.


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## ffemt8978

JPINFV said:


> Out-of-hospital Spinal Immobilization: Its Effect on Neurologic Injury
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is very possible to show that an intervention causes an effect, such as lower secondary injury.
> 
> 
> and yea, if I'm in an MVC there's a very good chance that I'm going to refuse voodoo practices. Thanks, but the ability to breath and not get skin breakdown is much more important than making providers feel good that they are 'doing something.'



Link, please....


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## Shishkabob

Let me rephrase---


If you choose to do spinal precautions (Hint precaution, not immobilization) you can't prove one way or another that something would have happened had you chosen to NOT do the precautions.

You can't prove that if you chose not to do SP, they would have been paralyzed.  You can't prove that you saved them from paralysis either.


Again, better safe than sorry, but if you want to risk paralysis, even if the alternative might only give a 1% chance at no paralysis, that's on you.


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## Melclin

ffemt8978 said:


> Link, please....



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9523928

It's a poor study design in my opinion, barely statistically relevant, small experimental group, to many extraneous variables.

Also Malaysian (1) and Mexican (2) EMS are rubbish it would seem (happy to be proven wrong by someone whose been there). You can hardly generalise finding made in those pre-hospital environments to ours. Hardly call spinal immobilization voodoo on those grounds.



Linuss said:


> Again, better safe than sorry, but if you want to risk paralysis, even if the alternative might only give a 1% chance at no paralysis, that's on you.



Well said. Even if it is true that its 1%, you'll easy see 100 spinals in your career. Collar + board them just in case I reckon.

1. http://www.sciencedirect.com.ezprox...d=542840&md5=506170d47001b804c2466f1f569735ab

2.http://pdm.medicine.wisc.edu/21-2 PDFs/peralta.pdf


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## LAS46

I will say this until you have a EMT-Basic license in your pocket do even bother with this bag. Most everything in that bag is out of your scope of practice as a First Aider with CPR & AED Training. Also if you have never been trained in C-Spine care then dont attempt it you could do more damage if they have a underlying injury.

I hate to say this but getting this bag may just make you look more like a Supper Trooper than someone who is truly able to help.

Just my 2 cents.


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## guardian528

I see no harm in having some supplies with you, but i do agree that this bag is overkill. Also, I think that for me, stopping to help is more based on the circumstances. Yes, I have a large desire to help people. I don't really agree with whoever said, "i don't do it unless i get paid" or something similar to that, if I see someone in need I would like to help. However, that statement has limitations. If see an accident on the freeway, will I stop? Nope. My cell phone does a perfectly good job of alerting the right people, and stopping on the freeway is one of the most dangerous things you can do as pointed out by Sasha's links and countless other stories. With that said, if I see something on a side street or at a campground near where I work, sure, I'd love to help them out if they need it.


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## JPINFV

Melclin said:


> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9523928
> 
> It's a poor study design in my opinion, barely statistically relevant, small experimental group, to many extraneous variables.
> 
> Also Malaysian (1) and Mexican (2) EMS are rubbish it would seem (happy to be proven wrong by someone whose been there). You can hardly generalise finding made in those pre-hospital environments to ours. Hardly call spinal immobilization voodoo on those grounds.



...and there's no evidence that spinal movement restriction reduces secondary injury anyways. As far as 'barely statistically significant' I'd hardly call the low end of the odds ratio's 95% confidence interval at 1.03 (no effect at all would be at 1 with increased injury being below 1) to be insignificant. 

As far as study design, I'd like to see someone get a research protocol to completely remove spinal restriction for a prospective study through public comments and IRB given the current complete vacuum of research results regarding spinal immobilization. 

Linus, it's much easier to show that an intervention has an effect than has no effect.


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