# Work 24, get paid for 16



## NomadicMedic (Dec 21, 2014)

I can't believe that this is really a legal thing. 

If I am working a 24 hour shift, at the station, wearing a uniform, NOT FREE to do whatever I want, I would expect to get paid for every minute of my time. 

I'm blown away that EMTs will work a 24 hour shift and only get paid for 16 of them if there's no call during the 8 hour downtime.


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## TransportJockey (Dec 21, 2014)

Some places the EMTs are desperate for work and will do anything, including very stupid things like work for free or work for really crappy agencies that do stuff like that.


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## Akulahawk (Dec 21, 2014)

One of the quirks in employment law/regulation I found a few years ago was that if you're on a 24 hour shift, they can provide for 8 hours of "sleep time" which is unpaid unless you're on a call or posted out. If they completely remove you from service for meal periods, that's an additional 3 hours they don't have to pay you for. So, a 24 could mean 13 paid hours. Since removing a crew completely from service during 1 hour meal periods is unrealistic, the 24 hour shift becomes a 16 paid, 8 unpaid shift. Make sure you keep track of your time on calls during sleep time as that may have to be paid at an OT rate.


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## OnceAnEMT (Dec 21, 2014)

This is what happened to me while I was in San Antonio, which is saturated with lowly IFT companies, and I WAS desperate for a job. But I had that job for 4 weeks, and used that extra line on my resume to get my foot in elsewhere. Never looked back except when I needed a laugh. I will never stoop to those conditions again, now that I know it can be that bad.


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## akflightmedic (Dec 21, 2014)

In the pre-cellphone days (yes those days existed), a simple random 911 call from a payphone strategically timed disrupted the sleep down time ensuring everyone got paid for their hours. Just sayin...


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## irishboxer384 (Dec 21, 2014)

As a non-American I'm amazed by the general poor holiday provision, and that some states don't even have to give their employees lunch breaks. Or this whole '90 days before you qualify for benefits' thing....


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## dblawre (Dec 21, 2014)

man that's crazy, I have never been in a situation where they didn't pay me, matter of fact the fire dept I was with actually gave us an extra hour during daylight saving, if you are on duty you should get paid no matter if you are sleeping or not, but the city I worked for did use the fact that we slept to not give us equal pay with the cops, we fought for years for equal pay and the city said well y'all sleep at night, ha not always, but if they are not paying you to be in bed, does that mean you can invite a female to join you in bed, why not, your not getting paid and if I was at home, there is a good chance a female would be in bed with me


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## bushinspector (Dec 21, 2014)

akflightmedic said:


> In the pre-cellphone days (yes those days existed), a simple random 911 call from a payphone strategically timed disrupted the sleep down time ensuring everyone got paid for their hours. Just sayin...


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## bushinspector (Dec 21, 2014)

I gotta love the way you think, However they NOW have pre-paid cell phones and the poor homeless people sure do get lonely.....


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## CALEMT (Dec 21, 2014)

My old ambulance company used to do this... and they may still do. We would work 24's or 48's and they would give us a 5 hour down time (1700-2200 and 0000-0500 depending your shift) if I remember the times correctly that was unpaid. During that down time you could get some sleep or even go home (as long as you lived within 15 minutes of the station) and if you got a call within that "down time" period you would get OT for the 5 unpaid hours. The 24's went all that bad but the 48's could be a little rough depending on how much sleep you got. 

The fire department where I was a seasonal also used to do this (I never experienced this as my first season was this year). They have since done away with it back in 04/05ish I think (probably wrong) and this was 72's and it was from midnight to 0500 where you didn't get paid. Now if you got a call in that time frame you would get paid (unsure if OT or straight pay), the firefighters would call it earning your nickel if you got that wake up call. Again this isn't done anymore (I think the union fought it) and now you get paid the whole 72 hours.


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## gotbeerz001 (Dec 21, 2014)

CALEMT said:


> My old ambulance company used to do this... and they may still do. We would work 24's or 48's and they would give us a 5 hour down time (1700-2200 and 0000-0500 depending your shift) if I remember the times correctly that was unpaid. During that down time you could get some sleep or even go home (as long as you lived within 15 minutes of the station) and if you got a call within that "down time" period you would get OT for the 5 unpaid hours. The 24's went all that bad but the 48's could be a little rough depending on how much sleep you got.
> 
> The fire department where I was a seasonal also used to do this (I never experienced this as my first season was this year). They have since done away with it back in 04/05ish I think (probably wrong) and this was 72's and it was from midnight to 0500 where you didn't get paid. Now if you got a call in that time frame you would get paid (unsure if OT or straight pay), the firefighters would call it earning your nickel if you got that wake up call. Again this isn't done anymore (I think the union fought it) and now you get paid the whole 72 hours.


We worked 96 and got paid for 76 (no pay 0000-0500). If we had sleep interrupted for an official reason, the whole 5 hours was paid at OT (getting our 'nickel').... Which was a whopping $60 total. 

I posted this on the wrong thread earlier.


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## Jim37F (Dec 22, 2014)

Considering I just did a 48...I'm so very glad my FD is going to pay me for all those hours, didn't matter that the first night I had 4 calls after midnight and the second night I didn't have any, still got paid the same. Because you know, it's not like we have any control over whether dispatch decides to send us a call overnight or not...


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## terrible one (Dec 22, 2014)

Schaefer ambulance in LA county does this. I hated it


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## EMT11KDL (Dec 22, 2014)

akflightmedic said:


> In the pre-cellphone days (yes those days existed), a simple random 911 call from a payphone strategically timed disrupted the sleep down time ensuring everyone got paid for their hours. Just sayin...



or just a nice handshake earlier in the day with a local deputy who just happens to request ems Standby for something and than cancel us just a few minutes after dispatch.


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## chaz90 (Dec 23, 2014)

This would be a deal breaker for me. I wouldn't even consider working anywhere that didn't pay me 100% of the time I was at work. I understand the necessity of starting off at some of these places for experience, but it stinks of shady business practices to me. Wages are one thing, but being required by your job to be present somewhere without any sort of compensation? No thank you.


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## titmouse (Dec 26, 2014)

Dirty...


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## RocketMedic (Dec 27, 2014)

Honestly, when places say this is how they pay, I politely inform them I am n8t interested and proceed to tell everyone about it.


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## Chewy20 (Dec 28, 2014)

Only can blame the people willing to accept this as "ok" and work for these companies.

I'm guessing the paid hours are close to minimum wage too? I would work a non-related ems job until I found one that treats their employees decent. But that's just me.


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## OnceAnEMT (Dec 28, 2014)

Chewy20 said:


> Only can blame the people willing to accept this as "ok" and work for these companies.



As was in my case, I am sure a good number of those same people are the ones that didn't know better. Gotta start somewhere. You can then blame those people if they fail to take initiative to progress to something bigger and better.


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## drjekyl75 (Jan 4, 2015)

When I started most of the local companies paid the 16 for 24 hr. shift. You got paid while you we on a call and if you were out 3 or more hours they paid you for the full 8 hrs. There were some SLOW rides back to the station if you were close to the 3 hours.


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## 18G (Jan 6, 2015)

That is just wrong to expect someone to work 24hrs and not compensate them for all of their time. Regardless if you're on calls or sleeping shouldn't matter. Its the level of preparedness that should be compensated.


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## bushinspector (Jan 7, 2015)

18G said:


> That is just wrong to expect someone to work 24hrs and not compensate them for all of their time. Regardless if you're on calls or sleeping shouldn't matter. Its the level of preparedness that should be compensated.


 Spot on, well spoken.


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## Tigger (Jan 7, 2015)

I can't have a beer at the station, therefore I will be paid.


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## Jn1232th (Jan 7, 2015)

I just got hired and the company does same thing...


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## OnceAnEMT (Jan 8, 2015)

Tigger said:


> I can't have a beer at the station, therefore I will be paid.



Employee at the IFT company I was at made this argument a few weeks before he left for Acadian (along with 75% of the company staff). He was required to be "on call" whenever requested by management, and was not paid unless actually called, and could not be impaired during his on-call period. Supposedly it was part of his employment agreement. He argued that if he isn't allowed to drink, he better be getting paid.


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## Tigger (Jan 8, 2015)

My AMR part time place has a similar requirement once a quarter. Just put me on the damn car if you're going to make it so I can't work anywhere else or go do what I want.


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## DesertMedic66 (Jan 8, 2015)

Kinda how our DRT/ERT is. You are on call for the whole month. You get a call and you have to be at the station with all your gear in 90 minutes. Can't really leave town. Can't drink. Have to have your 72 hour go bag all ready.


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## Tigger (Jan 8, 2015)

DesertEMT66 said:


> Kinda how our DRT/ERT is. You are on call for the whole month. You get a call and you have to be at the station with all your gear in 90 minutes. Can't really leave town. Can't drink. Have to have your 72 hour go bag all ready.



Ours is a little different since the team is made up of most if not all the Colorado operations as well as one in Wyoming. Our op is the coordinator and will request other divisions to try and get like 6-8 people at a time if I remember.


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## DesertMedic66 (Jan 8, 2015)

Tigger said:


> Ours is a little different since the team is made up of most if not all the Colorado operations as well as one in Wyoming. Our op is the coordinator and will request other divisions to try and get like 6-8 people at a time if I remember.


Yep. I remember having to make daily phone calls to Colorado NatCom to give them status updates.


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## BigBad (Jan 21, 2015)

I work 48/96 for a private ambulance service and we only get 16 hours a day and then sleep time with 3 hours=8.   It sucks but we are well compensated do CCT transports all the time so were actually usually getting some sleep time and within reason you are allowed to milk it.    If we were to change our pay system which is in the works we would all actually get a smaller hourly rate to compensate the budget with so much overtime so it would all even out in the end anyway.   But then we have extra day cars and would have to keep those people at a higher rate.  Ahhh politics.


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## Chewy20 (Jan 21, 2015)

BigBad said:


> I work 48/96 for a private ambulance service and we only get 16 hours a day and then sleep time with 3 hours=8.   It sucks but we are well compensated do CCT transports all the time so were actually usually getting some sleep time and within reason you are allowed to milk it.    If we were to change our pay system which is in the works we would all actually get a smaller hourly rate to compensate the budget with so much overtime so it would all even out in the end anyway.   But then we have extra day cars and would have to keep those people at a higher rate.  Ahhh politics.


 
SCREW that


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## Handsome Robb (Jan 21, 2015)

Tigger said:


> I can't have a beer at the station, therefore I will be paid.



My thoughts exactly.



justin1232 said:


> I just got hired and the company does same thing...



I'm sorry but unless I was really in a bind for employment or was getting a solid hourly that made up for the difference I wouldn't be down at all. 

Our TEMS and SAR Teams are on call for a week at a time, they're not paid to be on call and have to be available and able to respond quickly although I'm not sure of the exact time limits. Not ideal but being on one of the teams is looked at as being "elite" and once you get called you go on the clock so it isn't that bad of a deal. Especially since it's a "cool guy" job. That definitely makes up for it. 

We can sign up to be on call when theres inclement weather coming. It's $3/hr on-call then OT rates if you get called once you get to the garage so it's not a bad deal if you don't have anything better to be doing, especially if you're on call at night since you can sleep as long as you can be at the garage within 30 minutes.


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## BigBad (Jan 22, 2015)

Chewy20 said:


> SCREW that



Screw what?   I'm still probably clearing $$ in the 95th percentile of paramedics in the country.


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## Chewy20 (Jan 22, 2015)

And you could be earning more if your company paid you for your required time away from home...


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## usmarine (Jan 23, 2015)

Yea, I interviewed with a place that does this. Needless to say I went with a better place.


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## BigBad (Jan 23, 2015)

Again it's all relative.   A place that pays you 24 hours straight, will just adjust their hourly rate 30% lower to offset the extra forced overtime they will always pay out.   A place that doesn't pays a much higher hourly rate to keep employees.   Now, when you factor in overtime rates on a higher hourly rate, I make PA money.


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## irishboxer384 (Jan 23, 2015)

BigBad said:


> Again it's all relative.   A place that pays you 24 hours straight, will just adjust their hourly rate 30% lower to offset the extra forced overtime they will always pay out.   A place that doesn't pays a much higher hourly rate to keep employees.   Now, when you factor in overtime rates on a higher hourly rate, I make PA money.



If you're in a unique position to not have a social or family life then it's all good, but working being away from home and working 80 hours a week on $1 or $1000000000 is still working 80 hours a week.

I have some friends who have done protection for CEOs of some major banks- these guys make serious money, however they only do the job for a few years because they burn out. Overworking in EMS and having to drive let alone perform treatment is dangerous I think.


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## Chewy20 (Jan 23, 2015)

BigBad said:


> Again it's all relative.   A place that pays you 24 hours straight, will just adjust their hourly rate 30% lower to offset the extra forced overtime they will always pay out.   A place that doesn't pays a much higher hourly rate to keep employees.   Now, when you factor in overtime rates on a higher hourly rate, I make PA money.


 
Lol feel free to PM me your company name and location so I can look into it. Ill see if your "PA" money is worth it.


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## TransportJockey (Jan 23, 2015)

One place I've looked at does shift pay instead of hourly... granted at almodt 500/24hr shift, it seems likr a decent deal. Much better than my 250/24hr period


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## RocketMedic (Feb 6, 2015)

That's actually not a bad deal if you work 2 shifts a week.


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## TransportJockey (Feb 6, 2015)

RocketMedic said:


> That's actually not a bad deal if you work 2 shifts a week.


I actually took that one. Gotta do 10 24 hour periods a month. And you can stack days and work up to 72 on at a time.


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## DrParasite (Feb 6, 2015)

my initial thoughts were similar to others: if I can't drink beer, and I'm forced to be away from my family, than I expect to be paid for every hour I work.  

However, I left a job at a very well known and respected agency that paid you different rates if you worked 12 hour shifts, 24 hour shifts, or 8s.  So if I was assigned to a 24 hour shift, I made $11.33 an hour, with an estimated gross annual salary for 2912 hours worked to be: $37,722.  If I was assigned to a 12 hour shift, I made $15.19 with an estimated gross annual salary for 2184 hours worked to be: $37,134.  If I was working admin, and 8 hours per day, it was $16.05, with an annual salary of $33,384 for 2080 hours worked.  

So while I got paid for all the hours worked, the rate varied on what shift I worked.  Not the same as not getting paid to sleep, but they did not pay the same for 24 hour shifts.   

I now work for an agency that pays me the same regardless of what shift I am working.


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## Tigger (Feb 6, 2015)

DrParasite said:


> I now work for an agency that pays me the same regardless of what shift I am working.


I wish this was the standard, when I worked in Massachusetts that's how it was.

If you work more hours, you should be compensated more. The end.


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## triemal04 (Feb 6, 2015)

Tigger said:


> I wish this was the standard, when I worked in Massachusetts that's how it was.
> 
> If you work more hours, you should be compensated more. The end.


The places I've heard of that have variable rates depending on the shift length also had different schedules so that you still ended up working about the same number of hours per week.  As in, 2 24 hour shifts in a week, or 4 12 hour shifts, or some such.  So while the rate was different, the  total weekly, or monthly compensation was the same, it was just the time off came in different blocks.

If you have multiple different lengths of shifts at one department that does make  sense to do.


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## Tigger (Feb 6, 2015)

I work at a place that only does 24s, but previously at an AMR operation with a variety of shifts. Eight hours shifts meant a 40 hour work week, 12s equaled out to 42 over the pay period, and 24s came out to 56 hour work weeks on a three platoon schedule.

You made the same amount of money regardless of hours per week worked. Those on 24 hour shifts got lower hourly rates to account for more OT, which is absurd. Of course there is more OT, it's scheduled...


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## triemal04 (Feb 7, 2015)

Tigger said:


> I work at a place that only does 24s, but previously at an AMR operation with a variety of shifts. Eight hours shifts meant a 40 hour work week, 12s equaled out to 42 over the pay period, and 24s came out to 56 hour work weeks on a three platoon schedule.
> 
> You made the same amount of money regardless of hours per week worked. Those on 24 hour shifts got lower hourly rates to account for more OT, which is absurd. Of course there is more OT, it's scheduled...


A 16 hour difference is getting pretty bad.  I'm sure the arguement from management was that, while the 24 hour shifts technically worked more hours, they only had to work 2, or sometimes 3, days in a week, versus 5 for the 8's, and 4 for the 12's.  

Really, just have a single shift length.  If you want to keep trucks constantly on the road stagger the start times, but it makes it so much easier to have everyone work the same type of shift.


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## Tigger (Feb 7, 2015)

triemal04 said:


> A 16 hour difference is getting pretty bad.  I'm sure the arguement from management was that, while the 24 hour shifts technically worked more hours, they only had to work 2, or sometimes 3, days in a week, versus 5 for the 8's, and 4 for the 12's.
> 
> Really, just have a single shift length.  If you want to keep trucks constantly on the road stagger the start times, but it makes it so much easier to have everyone work the same type of shift.



That was one half. The other half was that the 24 hour crews did not have post in the city at night, so therefore they could sleep in a bed. Nevermind that their UHUs were higher than the 12 hour cars. But I digress.


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## Leatherpuke (Feb 18, 2015)

I just got hired today at a County run shop that runs all 24's, two shifts per week on a rotating schedule so every third week you get a normal weekend off.  All the part timers work the wednesday shift so no full timers are on that day. It works out pretty good from what I've seen. 
 Mandatory 8 hours of overtime every week. None of this work 24 get paid for 16 stuff, I wouldn't have taken a job that tried to pull that.


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## ZombieEMT (Feb 25, 2015)

Am I the only person who has done this and does not see the issue? If you worked in most other industries, you would not even have the opportunity to have the down time, that we can occasionally get. How many jobs, can you truly say, you get scheduled for 24 hours of work, only get paid for 19, but work even less?

I do get the fact that you are confined and limited to what you do. That does not mean you can not do anything. I work with a squad that has full kitchen, rec area, gym, computers, laundry facilities, and dorms. I can get a lot done in down time. I can also sleep, how many other jobs do you make money and sleep?

For those of you that say you will not work for free, well good for you. I guess you have never worked as a volunteer, good to know you give back.


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## Chewy20 (Feb 25, 2015)

ZombieEMT said:


> Am I the only person who has done this and does not see the issue? If you worked in most other industries, you would not even have the opportunity to have the down time, that we can occasionally get. How many jobs, can you truly say, you get scheduled for 24 hours of work, only get paid for 19, but work even less?
> 
> I do get the fact that you are confined and limited to what you do. That does not mean you can not do anything. I work with a squad that has full kitchen, rec area, gym, computers, laundry facilities, and dorms. I can get a lot done in down time. I can also sleep, how many other jobs do you make money and sleep?
> 
> For those of you that say you will not work for free, well good for you. I guess you have never worked as a volunteer, good to know you give back.


 
Nope I absolutely will not work for free, if I am in uniform and at the station (yes we have all those amenities you mentioned) I will be getting paid. Why would I go work somewhere who doesn't pay me the whole time for being at WORK. You're right, because of this I don't give back. I haven't spent hundreds of hours in numerous organizations to help veterans in the community. I have never volunteered to go to children's hospitals to spend time with them. Keep working for free bud, we who do nothing to give back commend you.


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## NomadicMedic (Feb 27, 2015)

ZombieEMT said:


> Am I the only person who has done this and does not see the issue? If you worked in most other industries, you would not even have the opportunity to have the down time, that we can occasionally get. How many jobs, can you truly say, you get scheduled for 24 hours of work, only get paid for 19, but work even less?
> 
> I do get the fact that you are confined and limited to what you do. That does not mean you can not do anything. I work with a squad that has full kitchen, rec area, gym, computers, laundry facilities, and dorms. I can get a lot done in down time. I can also sleep, how many other jobs do you make money and sleep?
> 
> For those of you that say you will not work for free, well good for you. I guess you have never worked as a volunteer, good to know you give back.




Sorry. If you want me to be AT THE BUILDING, IN UNIFORM, READY TO RESPOND... pay me.


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## Tigger (Feb 27, 2015)

ZombieEMT said:


> Am I the only person who has done this and does not see the issue? If you worked in most other industries, you would not even have the opportunity to have the down time, that we can occasionally get. How many jobs, can you truly say, you get scheduled for 24 hours of work, only get paid for 19, but work even less?
> 
> I do get the fact that you are confined and limited to what you do. That does not mean you can not do anything. I work with a squad that has full kitchen, rec area, gym, computers, laundry facilities, and dorms. I can get a lot done in down time. I can also sleep, how many other jobs do you make money and sleep?
> 
> For those of you that say you will not work for free, well good for you. I guess you have never worked as a volunteer, good to know you give back.



I hope you are not implying that people that do not volunteer in EMS are somehow lesser people than those that do. Some of us are trying to make a living off this industry...


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## Jim37F (Feb 27, 2015)

DEmedic said:


> Sorry. If you want me to be AT THE BUILDING, IN UNIFORM, READY TO RESPOND... pay me.


Seconded. No you're not paying me to sleep...what you're paying me for is to be able, with no prior notice before the tones go off, wake up from a dead sleep, not drag my 4th point of contact out of bed and take my sweet time because I'm tired, but have the same response times, safety, and quality of patient care at 2am as I do at 2 pm regardless if the 2 am call is the first call of the shift or the 20th. All the while following and maintaining all other standards and procedures as I do during the day including requiring me to be in the proper uniform  (as opposed to a comfortable pair of pajamas and slippers), at the station  (I'm sure the majority of us find our own beds in our own homes much more comfortable than the shared living arrangements at a station), not being able to share a drink or two with friends etc etc etc.


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## PotatoMedic (Feb 27, 2015)

DEmedic said:


> Sorry. If you want me to be AT THE BUILDING, IN UNIFORM, READY TO RESPOND... pay me.


Agree.  Studies are showing that our body do not get normal sleep while at work.  So yeah we are "asleep" but we are not getting the normal sleep patterns.  So since my body is being impacted by being at work even while sleeping, your paying me.


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## Tigger (Feb 27, 2015)

The only way I see this being a benefit is if the hourly rate is exceptionally high to make up for the no pay time. That way if you pick up any extra, your OT rate will be huge.

I don't think this is a common arrangement however. The only place here that does it has a very high hourly rate, but if you do the math it's still slightly less money than if you're paid the whole 24.


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## TransportJockey (Feb 27, 2015)

ZombieEMT said:


> Am I the only person who has done this and does not see the issue? If you worked in most other industries, you would not even have the opportunity to have the down time, that we can occasionally get. How many jobs, can you truly say, you get scheduled for 24 hours of work, only get paid for 19, but work even less?
> 
> I do get the fact that you are confined and limited to what you do. That does not mean you can not do anything. I work with a squad that has full kitchen, rec area, gym, computers, laundry facilities, and dorms. I can get a lot done in down time. I can also sleep, how many other jobs do you make money and sleep?
> 
> For those of you that say you will not work for free, well good for you. I guess you have never worked as a volunteer, good to know you give back.


I agree with what the previous posters have said. If I'm on duty I will be getting paid. Period

And I don't do this for free. Even when I did volunteer I only did it for an agency that that gave me plenty in return (about 9k in education plus a few other things ). My time is valuable and I expect to be compensated for it.


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## triemal04 (Feb 27, 2015)

ZombieEMT said:


> For those of you that say you will not work for free, well good for you. I guess you have never worked as a volunteer, good to know you give back.


Why is that people will trumpet their vaunted and oh so special status as a volunteer as if it makes them special?

Newsflash:  It doesn't make you special.  It doesn't make you any better or different than someone who doesn't volunteer their time but gets paid (hopefully an appropriate amount) for their time and efforts.  The sooner that you and every other volunteer EMT out there comes to grips with that the sooner the sooner that one problem facing EMS will be removed.


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## band aid man (Mar 21, 2015)

Sadly pretty much every company in my area does this. so its either deal or find different work.


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