# EMS While PreMed



## Cory (Apr 4, 2010)

Does/has anyone here taken pre-med courses while working in EMS? If so, is it as overwhelming as it sounds? Was it campus EMS, or an actual FD/EMS company? Would you recommend it?

I think this could be a great opportunity for me, IF I can handle it.

Yes, I realize this is similar to other questions I have asked.


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## JPINFV (Apr 4, 2010)

I worked for a private company during my last two years of undergrad. It wasn't too bad to be honest. Some days I had time to study, others I didn't. One thing I did, though, was make sure that they were comfortable knowing that I couldn't work during the week. Of course that was tempered with me picking up as many holidays as I could so I had absolutely zero scheduling issues where I worked at.


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## Needles17 (Apr 4, 2010)

If you are doing 24hr shifts it will be tough.  The good thing is you will see first hand the stuff your are learning from a book.  That is experience you can't get in a classroom.


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## medicdan (Apr 4, 2010)

A good number of my friends, and active members of my college corps are pre-med, and EMTs. Some work off campus (transport), others take shifts on campus, others work or volunteer in nearby hospitals. Yes, it can be done. Depending on the setting, however, it will require careful time management.


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## dmc2007 (Apr 5, 2010)

emt.dan said:


> A good number of my friends, and active members of my college corps are pre-med, and EMTs. Some work off campus (transport), others take shifts on campus, others work or volunteer in nearby hospitals. Yes, it can be done. Depending on the setting, however, it will require careful time management.



+1.  If you get your priorities and time management right, it is certainly doable.


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## medichopeful (Apr 5, 2010)

Cory said:


> Does/has anyone here taken pre-med courses while working in EMS? If so, is it as overwhelming as it sounds? Was it campus EMS, or an actual FD/EMS company? Would you recommend it?
> 
> I think this could be a great opportunity for me, IF I can handle it.
> 
> Yes, I realize this is similar to other questions I have asked.



Yes, I'm doing it now.  I work campus EMS, 10-20 hours per week.  I'm a pre-health biology major (basically pre-med), and I'm able to do both.  Like others have said, if you manage your time you can do it easily.

As far as doing both, if you can handle it, go for it!  It's a great experience.


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## firecoins (Apr 5, 2010)

Cory said:


> Does/has anyone here taken pre-med courses while working in EMS? If so, is it as overwhelming as it sounds? Was it campus EMS, or an actual FD/EMS company? Would you recommend it?
> 
> I think this could be a great opportunity for me, IF I can handle it.
> 
> Yes, I realize this is similar to other questions I have asked.



I know people whom are paramedic while taking premed classes.


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## JPINFV (Apr 5, 2010)

A few quick things to note:

1. EMS experience will not make up for a low MCAT or GPA.

2. EMS training without experience is useless.

3. Medical schools don't care about the difference between paramedic and basic. 

4. EMS shouldn't be your only clinical experience. If you're planning on applying to osteopathic medical schools in addition to allopathic schools, make sure to shadow an osteopathic physician. To be honest, unless you're grades are outstanding, you should consider it. Plenty of capable applicants get turned down every year, as such, medical school applications are more like a lottery than anything else. 

If you are serious about going to medical school then you need to make the decision right now that school work is more important than an EMS job. It doesn't take much to sink an application and with the growing enrollment numbers at US schools (both in terms of class size and new schools) without a similar increase in residency spots, it's going to get to be very dangerous to use the Caribbean as a backup plan.


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## armywifeemt (Apr 5, 2010)

I think about a third of the pre-med students at the college I attended volunteered as paramedics for our local fire dept... Our college also had an agreement with the fire department that students who qualified for the Federal Work Study Program could do their FWSP hours at the fire department. I did it, and so did a couple of the pre-med students... The nice thing about volunteering, though, is that you are able to set your hours. If you need to study you can study. Spring break comes, you have a week to put in hours at the department. 

The other thing that seems to be getting glossed over... whether it does anything for you as far as looking good to get into college or not, you will have a leg up on med school students who haven't ever actually worked in the medical field. All of the skills you learn as a paramedic will be useful as you are learning how to be a good doctor. Whether you gain any other advantages or not, the degree to which you are mentally, emotionally, and academically prepared for med school will be higher than most others.


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## JPINFV (Apr 5, 2010)

armywifeemt said:


> The other thing that seems to be getting glossed over... whether it does anything for you as far as looking good to get into college or not, you will have a leg up on med school students who haven't ever actually worked in the medical field. All of the skills you learn as a paramedic will be useful as you are learning how to be a good doctor. Whether you gain any other advantages or not, the degree to which you are mentally, emotionally, and academically prepared for med school will be higher than most others.



EMS will not, in any way, prepare you academically for medical school. 

EMS will not prepare you, in any way, mentally for medical school. 

There aren't very many applicants without clinical experience, so the concept that you will have a leg up is essentially null. 

There are better clinical experiences than EMS out there for pre-meds. 

Being an EMT is not unique in the application game.


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## armywifeemt (Apr 5, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> EMS will not, in any way, prepare you academically for medical school.
> 
> EMS will not prepare you, in any way, mentally for medical school.
> 
> ...



I believe I explicitly said it may have no bearing on an application. 

I also don't see where I said anything about med school or being a med student.

So you're saying having a strong grasp on anatomy and physiology well before med school, and using it on a regular basis are in no way valuable in preparation? Being able to handle the mental and emotional ramifications of death aren't going to in any way prepare you to handle actually being a doctor? Because I thought that becoming a doctor was the end result of becoming to med school, at least hopefully. 

I did not say there were not other, better opportunities for clinical experience. I am sure that there are. He didn't ask about other clinical experiences though.. he asked about EMS.  

Logically, EMS is a high pressure field.. we handle bad situations with sometimes less equipment and resources than we'd like, and for the most part I think we do a pretty good job of it. No, being a paramedic is nothing like being a doctor.. but that does not mean you do not hone any skills that are useful as a doctor while doing it.


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## JPINFV (Apr 5, 2010)

> I believe I explicitly said it may have no bearing on an application.
> 
> I also don't see where I said anything about med school or being a med student.


No successful application, no medical school. Quick stats on pre-med v applicant v med student.

The average Medical College Admissions Test (MCAT) subsections are standardized to a score of 8 out of 15. This should make the average composite MCAT score a 24 (there are 3 subsections scored in this manner. Combined, those three sections make up the composite score). The average applicant to US medical schools when I applied was a 27 and the average successful applicant scored a 30. For the composite score, The standard deviation is around 2. So the people who apply to medical school are already significantly higher than the average score on the MCAT and the average successful applicant is about 1.5 standard deviations above the mean. While DO school averages are a little lower, they aren't that much lower. Meanwhile, the average score continues to inch ever higher for both MD and DO schools despite new schools opening up.



armywifeemt said:


> So you're saying having a strong grasp on anatomy and physiology well before med school, and using it on a regular basis are in no way valuable in preparation?


Given the quantity of material in the short time period that it is presented in medical school AND as a first year medical student who did take undergrad anatomy and physiology. Yes. Undergrad A/P bears little resemblance in difficulty to medical school and learning anatomy out of Netters bears no resemblance to gross anatomy. Don't believe me? Compare Netter's Atlas of Human Anatomy (idealized drawings) to Rohen's Color Atlas of Anatomy (real pictures), and then realize that Rohen is essentially a perfect dissection, which is not what the average student is going to do on the average cadaver. Consider also that the lab practicals for Gross Anatomy are tagged from the student's dissection, and not an idealized dissection. When the anatomy professors have to dissect out a section, it's next to impossible half the time (that's how we're "punished" if a table isn't doing their dissections properly, such as only dissecting one side of the cadaver. We're warned of this from day one.) to identify what is tagged. 

Never mind that the A/P taught in EMT-B is a complete and utter joke. 



> Being able to handle the mental and emotional ramifications of death aren't going to in any way prepare you to handle actually being a doctor? Because I thought that becoming a doctor was the end result of becoming to med school, at least hopefully.



Most EMT-Bs aren't going to have to deal with death. Period. Furthermore, even the ones that do end up working a code are still not going to be involved with cessation of resuscitation and family notification. There's a big difference between doing CPR and telling the wife that her husband is dead, despite our best efforts. 



> I did not say there were not other, better opportunities for clinical experience. I am sure that there are. He didn't ask about other clinical experiences though.. he asked about EMS.


He's also asking about in regards to medical school applications. I'm one of the handful of people on here who's been through the application process, and one of 2 that I know of that were successful. If the OP's end goal is medical school, I'd rather help him get into medical school than get into EMS. That definitely involves suggesting additional and/or alternative options. That involves seriously describing the benefits of EMS, especially when the benefits are generally overstated by EMS providers who've never filled out one or a combination of the three US medical school application systems (AMCAS, AACOMAS, or TMDSAS) and played application roulette. 

Oh, by the way, Application Roulette (TM) costs about $1000 to play, plus what ever it costs in airfare, lodging, and car rentals for those blessed with invites. An average school will get 5,000 applicants, interview 6-700 applicants, accept 500 applicants, and end up with a class of 100-200 students. It is very easy to spend thousands of dollars to come up with nothing but rejection letters. 



> Logically, EMS is a high pressure field.. we handle bad situations with sometimes less equipment and resources than we'd like, and for the most part I think we do a pretty good job of it. No, being a paramedic is nothing like being a doctor.. but that does not mean you do not hone any skills that are useful as a doctor while doing it.



Most EMTs do not work high pressure jobs. 

Most EMTs (especially those working pure non-emergent work) have ample equipment to handle their jobs. The equipment might not be the very best quality. They may not have everything they want, but they have everything they *need*.

Alternatively, most of medicine is not high pressure. Most physicians do not handle emergencies. 

Logically, if someone isn't successful at the admissions game then it doesn't matter how good of a physician they might be, because they aren't going to be a physician. The admissions game has to be played, and it's very much played by the admissions committees' rules and on their grounds. You can have all of the interpersonal ability in the world and be able to think on your feet and all of that jazz. You still aren't getting into medical school with a 2.5 GPA and a 22 MCAT score.


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## Dominion (Apr 5, 2010)

Something to kind of keep in the back of your mind that many of my friends from EMS have told me about entering medschool.  You go to college, do your best ,get in the top of everything; deans list, academic honors, validictorian, etc etc etc.  Once in med school you realize that you aren't the top of anything.  The rest of your class has done the exact same thing.  

For the record as well, a guy I went to EMT school with applied to med school 5 years in a row, had a 3.4GPA, 23 MCAT, 3 years ER Tech, 1 year shadowing various docs, 10 years in the scouts as a volunteer, and 2 years as an EMT before he was finally accepted to alliopathic.


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## Veneficus (Apr 5, 2010)

*Listen to JP!*

This may help you compare EMS to Med school. I am not trying to sound great, but I really can think of no other way to demonstrate the absolute volume and depth of material. 

Please keep in mind I have been and stiil am a paramedic in the US and spend all my major off time working there as an instructor so I have some idea of what is involved.

In addition to my US undergrad, 

In 3.5 years (this semester is not over yet) (I go to school in Europe so I am in a 6 year school) I have already had 2235 hours of mandatory class time.

I have completed months of clinicals in 6 subjects, with 2 more years worth to go.

I will not even attempt to quantify the time out of the class/lab/clinical setting I have spent reading, studying, or going to conferences.

I give you my loyal assurance, there is nothing in any EMT text anywhere, that compares to the depth or volume of material. 

I had 7 anatomy texts alone. I can identify structures on any mammal and describe their embryological formation and evolutionary and therefore medical significance.

In one semester in 1 class we covered all 1446 pages (indexes not included) of Robin's and Cotran Pathological Basis of Disease. We followed it up with a second semester of Harrison's Internal Medicine.( in fairness only the parts that apply to pathology, so not the whole thing) an estimated total of more than 2500 pages of graduate level text (remember this is 1 class out of 4 and 2 clinicals and unlike US EMS education clinicals also have written tests) for which there is always an all or nothing final at the end.

In the total 5 volume set of Brady's Paramedic care (the largest in volume of US EMS text, index included cause I am lazy), there are 3003 pages of 10th grade reading level material. Toss in another 300 pages for ACLS, PALS, and ITLS, or whatever, and that brings your sum total to 3303 pages of text. At 100 pages a day (average suggested reading in med school) it would be just over 30 days of reading. With clinicals included, it would not even equal 1 class for 2 semesters. (approx 1.5 classes in a semester) But Keep in mind, in Pathology, there is no ambulance ops, wellness, role of the provider, or communications material, it is disease after disease. Every aspect, signs, symptoms, epidemiology, miroscopic findings, variations, molecular biology, biochemistry, genetics, radiology, and so on. 

Without extensive time (years if not a decades) of high volume/high acuity EMS work, nothing done in paramedic class comes close to the volume and never will you encounter such depth. 

Want to compare EMT class? 959 pages of 8th grade reading level in 120 hours. (9.5 days worth of med school suggested reading) I have spent more than 2x (almost 3x) in basic histology lab (the lab component of 1 class) staring at microscope slides than hours in the entire EMT class. 3.6x more time in anatomy than the entire EMT class. Thats just under 6x more time in 2classes than in the entire EMT B education! (we average 5 classes/1clinical a semester) What is in the EMT or Paramedic books I haven't found that could possibly help with that?

So for a small taste of medical school. Read a text at least 9 levels higher than your Basic text in 9 days, while attending 5 similar classes and 1 or 2 clinicals, (for which you will be tested on every part, down to the biochemical level and identifying gross and microscopic structures as well as which embryological germ layer it derives from) and stretch that out every semester over 4-6 years.

Plus all the topics are connected, so if you are not very good at microbiology, you will pay the price not only there, but in biochemistry, pharmacology, parasitology, pathology, and several clinicals.

There is nothing in EMS that can prepare you for that. Sometimes an EMS background makes things harder because you "think" you kow something, and you find you really don't know it as well as is demanded and have to spend extra time on it to relearn the topic.

Critical thinking, people skills, and all that "real world" stuff. It helps a little, from all the ABC drilling, you have some idea how to prioritize all the knowledge. But it is nothing that a physical diagnosis class which teaches and then tests you on how to put it together doesn't cure. So it probably shaves about 1/2 to an hour off the day in 1 semester. Over a week that could be a whole 7 hours if you are lucky, and take my word for it, anyone in medical school can use an extra 3.5-7 hours a week, even for only a single semester.


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## firecoins (Apr 5, 2010)

I have known MANY medical students with EMT-B with little to no experience.  It neither helped not hurt. I know even more who never took an EMS class of any sort. 

I have known 5 paramedics to become MD/DOs. They were all very smart people. They led me to believe it helped with admissions however I suspect they all would have got into medical school without being paramedics. All of them had very high GPAs and all did well on the MCAT. They became medics on top of their excellent academic careers.


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## Shishkabob (Apr 5, 2010)

> So for a small taste of medical school. Read a text at least 9 levels higher than your Basic text in 9 days, while attending 5 similar classes and 1 or 2 clinicals, (for which you will be tested on every part, down to the biochemical level and identifying gross and microscopic structures as well as which embryological germ layer it derives from) and stretch that out every semester over 4-6 years.



:blink:

And that, my friends, is why I have no interest in going to medical school, contrary to what my paramedic instructors and a few doctors, RTs and nurses have told me to do.


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## reaper (Apr 5, 2010)

If you want to work EMS while doing Premed. Do it for the extra funds, not the experience!

Can it be done? Of course, I have been doing it for 21 years now!


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## Needles17 (Apr 5, 2010)

you have been in premed for 21 yrs?


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## reaper (Apr 5, 2010)

Taking my time!


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 5, 2010)

> It neither helped not hurt



I have friends on the admissions boards for several different schools and all of them say the same thing: If you're a strong candidate otherwise it is not going to hurt you, but unless you've been a paramedic for a long time (>5 years), have a lot of unique experience (combat medic, EMS supervisor, etc), etc it is not going to separate you from the other ~10% of premeds who also obtained the EMS credentials and did a little volunteer time.  It is not going to save your butt if you're a marginal applicant otherwise.  One of them made the point that during the meetings they have about applicants, there are frequent jokes made about premeds who think being an EMT makes them somehow eminently more qualified to be a doctor.


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## Anu (Apr 6, 2010)

_In the total 5 volume set of Brady's Paramedic care (the largest in volume of US EMS text, index included cause I am lazy), there are 3003 pages of 10th grade reading level material. _

10th grade reading level including terminology and anatomy/physiology?


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## Anu (Apr 6, 2010)

(ignore this post.)


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## Veneficus (Apr 6, 2010)

Luvadea said:


> _In the total 5 volume set of Brady's Paramedic care (the largest in volume of US EMS text, index included cause I am lazy), there are 3003 pages of 10th grade reading level material. _
> 
> 10th grade reading level including terminology and anatomy/physiology?



Sad, isn't it?


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 6, 2010)

It's disgusting.  What's even more sad is the fact that so many people have so much trouble passing coursework involving such diluted and "dumbed down" material. Sad and frightening.


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## Cory (Apr 6, 2010)

*Veneficus*,

I have heard some rough med-school speaches in my life, one of which from my own cousin, but your's by far had to be the most intimidating. I am honestly now worried that I'm just in over my head...my high school chemistry and anatomy grades are nothing special (despite my heightened interest in those subjects), and I still have to take physiology and psychology next year. I'm just young and naive and blah blah blah, but my whole interest is working in emergency medicine in general. Whether that be EMS, nursing, or being a physician. The only real reasoning I have for wanting to go to med-school is that it means a lot more money and opportunities. 

I know a lot of people who are in med school now, and I know a few who have been out for a while. I can only hope that my school's advanced level can explain my lower grades. Surprisingly, I was at UC med school last week, and the anatomy teacher there told me that 3/4 of the practicing physicians in the Cincinnati area graduated from my high school.

You've got me worried now...


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## JPINFV (Apr 6, 2010)

Don't be worried. Med school is tough for everyone, but it is possible. When you get into medical school, you'll have everything from people straight out of college to people with graduate degrees in your class. Ages will range from early 20's to the mid 30's. However everyone will feel like they are being drowned with material. Such is the nature of medical school.


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## EMSLaw (Apr 6, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Don't be worried. Med school is tough for everyone, but it is possible. When you get into medical school, you'll have everything from people straight out of college to people with graduate degrees in your class. Ages will range from early 20's to the mid 30's. However everyone will feel like they are being drowned with material. Such is the nature of medical school.



Also, from my understanding, the philosophy in med school is that they want everyone to succeed.  That is to say, it's not a "weed out" process, like some law schools.


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## Veneficus (Apr 6, 2010)

I best heard it described as "trying to drink from a fire hose."

It is why people do not go to med school part time, or work a full time job with it.

If you are accepted, you have what it takes to succeed. Unlike EMS education which in the US is just a plethora of disjoined facts, each semester prepares you for the next semester. As well, the later ones reinforce earlier ones. 

Just concentrate on what you are doing now and always know what the next step is. Med school is probably one of life's biggest challenges, but it is clearly doable, even if it is a little rough. 

Figure it like this: If I can do it. You can do it.


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## zmedic (Apr 6, 2010)

Going back to the OP, you can do EMS while pre med, but just make sure that it isn't cutting into your study time or grades. I did ski patrol while in college, it was only about 12 hours a week and didn't really hurt my studies. After school I did EMS with a lot of people who were trying to go to school while working 911 full time, and they were miserable. They didn't have the time to sleep enough or study enough. Everything suffered. Lots of them ended up having to switch to lighter class loads, stretching their college out by years. 

I'd say find something either where is it super slow and you can study while on duty, or something busy that you do once a week. But you should be doing it because you enjoy it, not because you are trying to boost your app.


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## usafmedic45 (Apr 6, 2010)

> Also, from my understanding, the philosophy in med school is that they want everyone to succeed. That is to say, it's not a "weed out" process, like some law schools.



I have a friend who has struggled with anatomy and is on her third attempt to pass it.  She's missed it by a single point each time...and you thought missing the piddly little test that is the NREMT exam by a narrow margin sucked.


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## JPINFV (Apr 6, 2010)

EMSLaw said:


> Also, from my understanding, the philosophy in med school is that they want everyone to succeed.  That is to say, it's not a "weed out" process, like some law schools.



The application process is the weed out process. Yes, US medical schools do their best to get their students to graduation. At my school, for example, there's an entire office devoted to helping students out academically and providing tutoring services. Similarly, when students do fail a course (and many students will fail their first course while in medical school), there's a formal process in place to allow that student to remediate that course. It's hard, but there's multiple reasons why the 4 year attrition rate for medical school is only 5%.


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