# 1 in every 32



## Stevo (Nov 30, 2006)

of us is a _criminal?_

clicky



> WASHINGTON: A record 7 million people — or one in every 32 American adults — were behind bars, on probation or on parole by the end of last year, according to the Justice Department.




what's wrong with this picture?

~S~


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## jeepmedic (Nov 30, 2006)

wooo hooo good for the old Job.


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## FFEMT1764 (Nov 30, 2006)

It has to be all the hormones we are putting in the food supply, that or the economy is worse than I thought...


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## RALS504 (Nov 30, 2006)

Just remember boys and girls the statistics vary, but for every $1 we do not spend on schools (elementary- universities) we will spend $3 or more housing those drop outs in prison later.


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## Stevo (Dec 1, 2006)

seems we've committed to other priorities *RALS504*


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## Fedmedic (Dec 1, 2006)

Stevo said:


> what's wrong with this picture?
> 
> ~S~



Nothing....job security!!


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## Stevo (Dec 1, 2006)

one thumb up *Fedmedic*! (the other is currently occupied in the nether regions)


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## VinBin (Dec 2, 2006)

I would agree that funding is a bit skewed in terms of national defense, I don't like the argument that "National priorites proj." puts forth that for every dollar we spend on X, we could have done millions of good things for Y(homeless children, education...). 

That doesn't make any sense...The way to create better schools and Insure everyone (is that even a possible or logical goal?) is to change the enviornment that everyone is growing up in. *RALS504* you imply that there are dropouts *because *we don't spend enough on education. That is false, take my High School for example, it was one of the top in the state, but it was very divided in terms of students. There were students who would utilize the materials and challenge themselves (surprising enough, because their peers were of the same type/home enviornment supported it) and those that didn't really care (but were given the same oppurtunities as all the students). There is no amount of money that is going to change their minds on the value of education, if you want to put money into anything, put it into making better parents, changing the culture...etc.

Other statistics to note :
US Pop. by Race: 70% White, 12%Black, 12%Hispanic, 6%Other
Inmates by Race: 35% White, 44%Black, 18%Hispanic, 3%Other

Pushing money into arbitrary things as such isnt necessarily going to give results...


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## Stevo (Dec 2, 2006)

> The United States is 49th in the world in literacy (the New York Times, Dec. 12, 2004).
> 
> The United States ranked 28th out of 40 countries in mathematical literacy (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004).
> 
> Twenty percent of Americans think the sun orbits the earth. Seventeen percent believe the earth revolves around the sun once a day (The Week, Jan. 7, 2005).


clicky

an oligarchy only survives if it's citizens fight among themselves *VinBin*

~S~


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## Guardian (Dec 2, 2006)

a couple years old, but...http://www.classroomtools.com/wartax8.gif

defense spending doesn't seem so bad now does it.


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## Guardian (Dec 3, 2006)

VinBin said:


> I would agree that funding is a bit skewed in terms of national defense, I don't like the argument that "National priorites proj." puts forth that for every dollar we spend on X, we could have done millions of good things for Y(homeless children, education...).
> 
> That doesn't make any sense...The way to create better schools and Insure everyone (is that even a possible or logical goal?) is to change the enviornment that everyone is growing up in. *RALS504* you imply that there are dropouts *because *we don't spend enough on education. That is false, take my High School for example, it was one of the top in the state, but it was very divided in terms of students. There were students who would utilize the materials and challenge themselves (surprising enough, because their peers were of the same type/home enviornment supported it) and those that didn't really care (but were given the same oppurtunities as all the students). There is no amount of money that is going to change their minds on the value of education, if you want to put money into anything, put it into making better parents, changing the culture...etc.
> 
> ...




I agree.........


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## Stevo (Dec 3, 2006)

nothing amazes me more than citizens of a police state advocating their own liberties being frittered away, while they wave flags and tout their love for freedom and democracy at that

or citizens advocating governace that turns it's back on the general populances problems, while convincing them that they are to blame 

but then , we're living in the widest disparity since the Roman empire, and look what happened to them....

~S~


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## RALS504 (Dec 3, 2006)

Let me clarify my earlier post. I am not saying every drop out will end up in prison. I am saying that the less education you have statistically speaking you are more likely to make less money and/or possibly end up in prison. There are always exceptions, i.e. we had a cop killer about 14 years back that had a doctorate degree in like physics and a high paying job. I agree the problem is not just a money issue. That is a factor, but the problem is everyone is too busy to help each other out. Look at current trends in how many close friends people have or if people volunteer for any type of organization. I had a professor who told me when he was in high school he did not dare cut class because his neighbors would tell his parents about it and this was mid 1950s. Now you are luck if you know your neighbors to either side of you. Just some of my thoughts.


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## VinBin (Dec 3, 2006)

Stevo said:


> nothing amazes me more than citizens of a police state advocating their own liberties being frittered away, while they wave flags and tout their love for freedom and democracy at that


can you elaborate on how we are living in a police state?




			
				Stevo said:
			
		

> or citizens advocating governace that turns it's back on the general populances problems, while convincing them that they are to blame
> 
> ~S~


There is a big difference between advocating a government that doesnt do anything to help the people and advocating personal responsibilty for the masses...


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## Stevo (Dec 3, 2006)

*VinBin*, if 1 out of every 32 of us doesn't convince you (or anybody)there's a problem, i'm not sure what else i could post for you

i do, however, have more material if you'd like.

~S~


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## VinBin (Dec 4, 2006)

I was actually requesting that you elaborate *on your statement that we are living in a "police state."* 

I agree there is a problem, I never stated there wasn't...But just because there is a high rate of the population in prison doesn't define a "police state"....


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## Stevo (Dec 4, 2006)

good point

what would be the definition of Police State ?

how's being only second to China in incarcerations per capita?

how's the element of collusion set with you on our longest war (drugs), producing over 2 million non violent inmates?  note that other countries have let go the strict standards we have, decriminalizing minor offenses 

the advent (around 20 yrs ago) of mandatory sentencing,federal guidlines,and the increased federalization of crimes in itself had a major impact here

and lastly, the privitization of our penal system is becoming a cash cow, it's become a friggin' business in itself

somehow _'let freedom ring'_ doesn't quite carry as it once did ....

~S~


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## Chimpie (Dec 4, 2006)

Stevo said:


> good point
> 
> what would be the definition of Police State ?
> 
> how's being only second to China in incarcerations per capita?


 
So are you saying we should look the other way when people commit crimes? Take away some of the laws that we have?



Stevo said:


> how's the element of collusion set with you on our longest war (drugs), producing over 2 million non violent inmates? note that other countries have let go the strict standards we have, decriminalizing minor offenses


 
Sure, take away the laws and crime goes down. Can't break a law if it doesn't exist. But is that what the majority wants?



Stevo said:


> the advent (around 20 yrs ago) of mandatory sentencing,federal guidlines,and the increased federalization of crimes in itself had a major impact here


 
And this is bad why?



Stevo said:


> and lastly, the privitization of our penal system is becoming a cash cow, it's become a friggin' business in itself


 
Again, this is bad why?



Stevo said:


> somehow _'let freedom ring'_ doesn't quite carry as it once did ....~S~


 
Don't break the law and your freedom should ring for your entire life.

B)


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## Fedmedic (Dec 4, 2006)

Chimpie said:


> Again, this is bad why?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I can tell you why privatization of our penal system is bad. For the last 6 years the president has been trying to privatize our federal prison system. The reason being is Wackenhut would get the contract. If you research it, Wackenhut is based out of Texas and was one of Bush's largest campaign contributors during both elections. Now after researching it, we find out the BOP(current system) operates $1.25 cheaper, per inmate, per day than a private company; with 150,000 inmates this translates into a significant savings for the taxpayers. Not only that but we are much more secure and have much higher hiring standards than a private company. Which in turn means more security for our communities. So why would they want to change from a system that is cheaper and better? Because it means putting money in the politicians pockets and their buddies pockets. I hope that answered your question.


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## wolfwyndd (Dec 4, 2006)

> can you elaborate on how we are living in a police state?


Warrentless wire taping, 'sneak and peak,' . . . . . in general, 'The Patriot Act.'


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## fm_emt (Dec 4, 2006)

Stevo said:


> somehow _'let freedom ring'_ doesn't quite carry as it once did ....



Tell me about it. Try buying a firearm legally in California these days. Ugh.


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## jeepmedic (Dec 4, 2006)

fm_emt said:


> Tell me about it. Try buying a firearm legally in California these days. Ugh.



I don't have a problem buying or carrying a firearm.


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## MeckRS83 (Dec 4, 2006)

jeepmedic said:


> I don't have a problem buying or carrying a firearm.



Me Neither got a shotgun in the truck.


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## VinBin (Dec 4, 2006)

wolfwyndd said:


> Warrentless wire taping, 'sneak and peak,' . . . . . in general, 'The Patriot Act.'


 
All that is good talk for political purposes, but in all reality, a very very small percentage of the population has been effected by any of the implimented rules. And I find it funny that the media jumps over any small mistake by the government and shrugs off any terror plots or activities that have been successfully stopped or identified.

In a police state, a man would not be *awarded 2 million dollars from the government* for being detained for a couple weeks *two years ago*...



> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5053007/
> In *2004*, the FBI makes official apology for mistake
> 
> 2006=
> On November 29, 2006, the U.S. government settled part of the lawsuit with Mayfield for a reported 2 million dollars. The United States government issued a formal apology to Mayfield as part of the settlement.


 
yeah, thats a police state for you...what disregard of the citizens rights

*Stevo*, the main problem in your argument and *Chimpie *hit it right on the head is that you attribute these problems (high prison rate, low education ranks) to the government, while I (and as stated by Chimpie) advocate personal responsibility (to an extent, of course)...

The answer to high prison rate isn't to abolish what we have set as legal, do you see how ridiculous that sounds? You want # of speeding tickets to go down? Raise the speed limit...That kind of logic doesn't hold up. There is a problem, and there is nothing the government can do about it, it has to be a cultural change by the people, no amount of money from the government or letting prisoners go will change it....Heres another interesting statistic...

69% Overall, of children in the US have 2 parents who interact with them (not necessarily married)
75% European American 
63% Latino descent
35% African American 
I couldn't find the Asian American statistics, but from what I have read, it is the highest of the groups...

We can blame all our problems and societys woes on the evil government and the "Patriot Act" but I doubt any of us have had any real impact from any of these actions...


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## Stevo (Dec 4, 2006)

well *VinBin*, any governance , be it capatalist, socialist, or whatever political stripe one may hail from is only as good as it's people are treated

now you may say a small % of the population is being abused here, and i'll agree. But the very premis of freedom lives via a common denominator in that if ONE person is being abused, the whole of us all come down one notch on the freedom scale.

that's the real impact of such things as PA 1 & PA 2

and i didn't say anything about personal responsibilities being subject to scrutiney _did i?_.... heaven forbid.  But you'll need to admit that in the disparity we are living that middle class's responsibilities aren't as easy to meet, thus the small infractions creep in all the easier

and blaming everything on immigrants or minorities (as you've alluded) is just a copout (pun intended) isn't it?  After all a police state only survives via validation and/or diversionary tactics.  When the validity of the laws imposed looks thin, keeping us fighting among ourselves is the best out available

this is done all the time in politics , why do you think guns and abortion are such revoloving perenials? frankly, it gets old...

and i didn't say abolish our laws either did i ? my god how many words do you intent to stuff in my mouth man? how's about _'make some sense of the laws we do have'_ for a start?

case in point, i didn't read anyone here mentioning decriminalization , do i need to quote some n.o.r.m.a.l. stats here, or does this group not know what i mean by the term collusion? 

people should recognize when they've _been had_ imho....

~S~


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## VinBin (Dec 5, 2006)

Stevo said:
			
		

> now you may say a small % of the population is being abused here, and i'll agree. But the very premis of freedom lives via a common denominator in that if ONE person is being abused, the whole of us all come down one notch on the freedom scale.


You know as well as I do that while it is great political rhetoric, what you suggest is not possible. How do we stop those small % of individuals who wish to harm? We have rules/laws that tries to not only punish them, but stop them before they act. Innocent people will very rarely get in the mix every now and then, that does not indicate a failed system...Innocent men have been put in prison ever since the advent of our system, you don't tear it all down for a few mistakes, do you?



			
				Stevo said:
			
		

> and blaming everything on immigrants or minorities (as you've alluded) is just a copout (pun intended) isn't it? After all a police state only survives via validation and/or diversionary tactics. When the validity of the laws imposed looks thin, keeping us fighting among ourselves is the best out available


*I did not blame immigrants or minorities for any of the problems*. If you read what I said correctly, *you would have noticed I was stating that current culture in certain areas* tend to be the cause of this downward spiral that pulls people into, thus leading to a life of crime. Where in this argument do you pull out that I blame minorities? Could it be the classic race/minority card that is pulled out whenever some people talk about personal/cultural responsibilty to those in the community who wish so hard to blame all on the "evil empire"?



			
				Stevo said:
			
		

> and i didn't say abolish our laws either did i ? my god how many words do you intent to stuff in my mouth man? how's about _'make some sense of the laws we do have'_ for a start?


You didn't? Read up to your last few responses, you clearly indicate that you want to decriminilize certain crimes as an answer to the high prison rate...



			
				Stevo said:
			
		

> case in point, i didn't read anyone here mentioning decriminalization


......


			
				Stevo said:
			
		

> how's the element of collusion set with you on our longest war (drugs), producing over 2 million non violent inmates? note that other countries have let go the strict standards we have, *decriminalizing minor offenses *


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## fm_emt (Dec 5, 2006)

jeepmedic said:


> I don't have a problem buying or carrying a firearm.



Uh, you're not in California.  And if you're a LEO, you can pretty much carry concealed anywhere in the US. Us slobs in CA can't get a CCW if our life depended on it. (Well, not in any of the counties surrounding San Francisco anyway..)


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## fm_emt (Dec 5, 2006)

MeckRS83 said:


> Me Neither got a shotgun in the truck.



Legal pretty much everywhere in the country, except California. :-(

We have a lot of really asinine firearm laws here.. crap that you can do in 49 other states that you can't do here.

* You have to take a test before buying a handgun
* only 1 handgun purchase every 30 days
* 10 day waiting period
* DOJ background checks
* many many perfectly legal rifles banned under SB-23, and Penal Code 12275 (Roberti-Roos) http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/regagunfaqs.htm
* .50 BMG banned because "terrorists could use it"
* cannot have a magazine that can hold more than 10 rounds (unless you owned it before 1/1/2000)

... and a whole bunch of other lame crap that has done absolutely nothing to curb crime. All it's done is chipped away at the rights that we have. :|


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## wolfwyndd (Dec 6, 2006)

VinBin said:


> You know as well as I do that while it is great political rhetoric, what you suggest is not possible. How do we stop those small % of individuals who wish to harm? We have rules/laws that tries to not only punish them, but stop them before they act. Innocent people will very rarely get in the mix every now and then, that does not indicate a failed system...Innocent men have been put in prison ever since the advent of our system, you don't tear it all down for a few mistakes, do you?


In truth, a LAW will not _stop_ anyone from doing something they are bound and determined to do.  We had laws making sending bombs through the mail illegal, but the Unibomber succeeded it doing it for _decades_ before he was finally caught.  How often have we heard on the news that so and so, who is divorced from such and such AND has a restraining order, goes off and kills such and such?  Oh, but wait, we have laws!!  Hence the power of determined individuals.  Todays terrorists are the same way.  When an individual, or group of individuals, is bound and determined to cause harm to someone else, or a group of someone elses they will succeed, no matter what the law says.  I'm not saying the system we have has _failed_, however this illustrates that we have _flaws_ in our system.  Clearly it's not perfect.  But as *Stevo* clearly points out, when ONE of our freedoms is infringed upon, ALL our freedoms are infringed upon.  

First they came for the [terrorists]
and I did not speak out
because I was not a [terrorist].
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.


originally written by Pastor Martin Niemöller 
Modified by JC Hull


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## VinBin (Dec 6, 2006)

wolfwyndd said:


> In truth, a LAW will not _stop_ anyone from doing something they are bound and determined to do. We had laws making sending bombs through the mail illegal, but the Unibomber succeeded it doing it for _decades_ before he was finally caught. How often have we heard on the news that so and so, who is divorced from such and such AND has a restraining order, goes off and kills such and such? Oh, but wait, we have laws!! Hence the power of determined individuals. Todays terrorists are the same way.


First, I am sure everyone would agree that we have flaws in the system, no one has hinted that the system is in any way perfect...

Your argument is in some part, true but you bring up some points that miss the idea of a "law". If someone *really* wants to do something, yes they will go ahead and do it, but in a wider aspect, laws really do deter people from doing many things...Consider, Speed Limits for example, why do you coast at 60-70mph on a straight highway that you could easily pull off 80? The speed limit says 55, yes, some will go at 80 because they really want to, and every now and then will be pulled over. The law has accomplished what it was supposed to : Deter Speeding in the Majority of Drivers.

Your point on the restraining order doesn't make any sense. A restraining order makes it illegal for one person to come in contact with someone else. If somebody really wanted to kill someone else, a piece of paper will do nothing to stop them. A restraining order does give the person being bothered some legal power to keep someone else away, thats all it does...And in the overwhelming majority of cases, it works!


			
				wolfwyndd said:
			
		

> When an individual, or group of individuals, is bound and determined to cause harm to someone else, or a group of someone elses they will succeed, no matter what the law says. I'm not saying the system we have has _failed_, however this illustrates that we have _flaws_ in our system.


 
What is funny is that *your argument is one of the biggest in favor of the Patriot Act* and greater security and intrusion into certain aspects of our lives. The fact that the "terrorists" will stop "at nothing", is the reason we created these proactive laws of sorts, that try to put a stop to any plots as they are forming or before they start. And because the "success" of these plots can impact thousands of lives, there is a more intrusive method to sniff them out...

Only a fool sticks to the liberal chant of "individual freedoms are being infringed!" whenever a rare case pops up where some innocent man was detained, when we can see the results of countries that are ravaged by the almost regular attacks by terrorist groups...


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## jeepmedic (Dec 6, 2006)

It always amazes me that the ones who complain about the laws are the some people saying that the govenment didn't do anything to stop the terrorist.  :wacko:


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## Ridryder911 (Dec 6, 2006)

Sounds like to me, someone missed the 60's generation and needs to & would love to take a political /philosophy class. Once you reached a certain point in life, you will realize that all that is B.S. and only certain figures and positions actually change things in the world...There are so much more things to worry about it in "reality" .. things more pertinent & we can actually change.

R/r 911


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## VinBin (Dec 6, 2006)

Yes, I missed the 60's by about two decades, just to clarify, all what is B.S.?


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## Ridryder911 (Dec 6, 2006)

poop..LOL! You guy's remind me when I was in college in the coffee house many, many years ago. debating Marx's structure on political impact was everlasting or Plato's .."Sacrotic problem"...and the unfair trials of Sacrotes. 
.. geez to think, I could had slept...LOL

R/r 911


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## VinBin (Dec 6, 2006)

haha...oh, just the whole arguments over government structure/policy and such...yes, I guess it is a bit pointless, but it is interesting to have some political/philosop. discussions every now and then, develops ability to debate and think critically...


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## wolfwyndd (Dec 8, 2006)

VinBin said:


> What is funny is that *your argument is one of the biggest in favor of the Patriot Act* and greater security and intrusion into certain aspects of our lives. The fact that the "terrorists" will stop "at nothing", is the reason we created these proactive laws of sorts, that try to put a stop to any plots as they are forming or before they start. And because the "success" of these plots can impact thousands of lives, there is a more intrusive method to sniff them out...


Interesting.  So if we can agree on the argument, why is it we're coming to two differing conclusions?  Difference of opinions I guess.  I just don't see the point in having a more intrusive law if everyone (or at least you and I) can agree that it's not going stop the terrorists.


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## VinBin (Dec 8, 2006)

I agreed that laws such as making murder illegal or putting up a speed limit will not deter terrorists in the same way as it might others, as you also stated.  

Thats why there were more extensive actions made to be proactive to get to the terrorists and put an end to a plan before it started.  I think most would agree that it can and has stopped terrorists...


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## Stevo (Dec 8, 2006)

> Once you reached a certain point in life, you will realize that all that is B.S. and only certain figures and positions actually change things in the world...



translation; _the powers that be have us by the balls, so there's no sense in raising a fuss_

that's the apathy factor that allows them to get away with it too

do carry on...

~S~


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## VinBin (Dec 8, 2006)

Stevo said:


> translation; _the powers that be have us by the balls, so there's no sense in raising a fuss_
> 
> that's the apathy factor that allows them to get away with it too
> 
> ...


 
heh...damn Stevo, a bit harsh...

I am not sure Rid meant it just like that...
But what you say is somewhat true...


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## Ridryder911 (Dec 8, 2006)

No a reality check... really how much power do you really think you have?.. There is a difference between apathy and understanding of real life... I really doubt those that can really change world policies are wasting their time on internet chatting....

That is why I am amused by tree huggers and movie stars, old liberal college professors actually think they "make the difference".. on what they think or say. It apparently has not nor ever has... political change comes from within from power of either of the masses or financial world.  

R/r 911


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## VinBin (Dec 9, 2006)

http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/local/index.php?ntid=110529&ntpid=3

god, I love blowhard liberals...


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## BossyCow (Dec 18, 2006)

Ridryder911 said:


> . political change comes from within from power of either of the masses or financial world.  R/r 911



Agreed.  I would just like to add that most elections are won or lost by a margin smaller than the registered voters who didn't bother to vote. We turn out in great numbers to vote on issues that hit us personally in the wallet.


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## Stevo (Dec 19, 2006)

good men doing nothing *Bossycow*? now where did i hear that?

yet that's been the score up until this last election, where the swing of power went the other way , almost as radically as it had in the last 6 years

and i'm amused at being called a liberal here, for lamenting that pendulum's swing to the right. It only proves youngsters and revisonists are buying the fascist tactics imparted to us by changing the meaning of the term

again, they have no concept of freedom being a common denominator, ironically foisting our nation as the beacon of democracy, as our leaders insiduosley rob us of it, impecable social engineering really...

so for those of you who's teeth gnash at our jackbooted contingent, i'll leave you with a few quotes to knaw on from our floudering fathers here;



> Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
> Benjamin Franklin





> If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.
> James Madison



~S~


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## VinBin (Dec 19, 2006)

Who called you a liberal? I remember we had a discussion a long time ago on another topic, and you had some very non-liberal views...

I don't see the US as a beacon of Democracy, but it is not a police state. You use terms like "fascist" "police state" and "robbing us of all freedom" freely without much basis...other than stating isolated cases that somehow prove that all our liberties are being taken away...

All those quotes and emotional language are all good to hear, but be practical...Do you really advocate no stricter rules, even if it means a much greater chance of attacks, etc?

And finally, to keep this conversation from going over the same things....

I pose a question to you *Stevo*, how do you feel we should tackle the problem of terrorism/attacks in our country??


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## prizonmedik (Dec 20, 2006)

The trouble buying a gun in CA is due to the over-concentration of tree-hugging liberals in that area.  But keep voting Democrat, you wont have to worry about it.  
 "how's the element of collusion set with you on our longest war (drugs), producing over 2 million non violent inmates? note that other countries have let go the strict standards we have, decriminalizing minor offenses "

Thailand cuts your hand off if you steal.  Any idea what the crime rate is in Thailand.  (No I don't want to live in Thailand, but decriminalizing offenses is not the answer.)

Only in the US can someone illegally enter the county and illegally enter onto your private property.  Then when a landowner holds the law breakers and call the police, the criminals sue (backed by Souther Poverty Law Center) and be awarded the landowners ranch.


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## Stevo (Dec 21, 2006)

> I pose a question to you Stevo, how do you feel we should tackle the problem of terrorism/attacks in our country??



a decent Q *VinBin*, and one we will eventually confront here .

first and foremost, we need to be honest with ourselves, our motives, our goals, our values.  as it stands now, we have not been.  We were once the light of the world, but those in power that would _impose_ that torch of freedom abroad, while violating it at home are soon going to go down here. 

secondly, there has to be a world consortium, not some unilateral cowboy spouting us/them rethoric, that is a recipee for disaster.  our foriegn policy got us into this, and will be what gets us out of it

third, one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. it is a war of hearts and minds that no amount of military might will mitigate in generations. the people, any people(s) only follow what they feel is righteous. gaining that faction is the only road to peace

~S~


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## premedtim (Dec 21, 2006)

Stevo said:


> good point
> 
> what would be the definition of Police State ?
> 
> ...



Not only that but the legal system is also stacked against you to increase the odds that you are convicted and go to prison for the same reason: they make money off you being in prison. Anyone who's had to go to court in the past couple of decades has probably noticed that they were considered guilty until proven innocent instead of the other way around.

Plus I've talked to people so far who live in Germany, Netherlands, Canada, and Australia and the U.S. so far takes the cake in number of police deployed on the streets as well as having the most hostile police.


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## Mercy4Angels (Dec 22, 2006)

Stevo said:


> a decent Q *VinBin*, and one we will eventually confront here .
> 
> first and foremost, we need to be honest with ourselves, our motives, our goals, our values.  as it stands now, we have not been.  We were once the light of the world, but those in power that would _impose_ that torch of freedom abroad, while violating it at home are soon going to go down here.
> 
> ...




speak on brother speak on. bring the troops home.


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## Stevo (Dec 22, 2006)

yes , well... unfortunatly the
people involved are speaking, but not being listened to, nor is much of what they're saying in the public limelight *Mercy4Angels*

Michael Powell's timely deregulation of the media insured that $$$= freedom of speech

very much a prerequisite of a police state

*premedtim* points out perspective;


> Plus I've talked to people so far who live in Germany, Netherlands, Canada, and Australia and the U.S. so far takes the cake in number of police deployed on the streets as well as having the most hostile police.



more a war on civil liberties that a wot would seem to exist....
AP: 'Vicious killers' from Guantanamo Bay routinely freed by other countries

~S~


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## kingedward (Dec 22, 2006)

Stevo said:


> ......
> first and foremost, we need to be honest with ourselves, our motives, our goals, our values.  as it stands now, we have not been.....
> 
> ~S~


Whose values? Whose goals? It seems everybody votes based on what the canidate can do for THEM- what's in it for ME? If I state MY values, I hear "who are you to lord your values over mine?", etc.
People cry "tolerance!", yet they are intolerant

"If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything", the saying goes, yet what I stand for, or you, or your neighbor, whoever- each has their own values, their own morality, their own "guide" of what is right or wrong.



> Ridryder911
> No a reality check... really how much power do you really think you have?.. There is a difference between apathy and understanding of real life...-------
> That is why I am amused by tree huggers and movie stars, old liberal college professors actually think they "make the difference".. on what they think or say. It apparently has not nor ever has... *political change comes from within from power of either of the masses or financial world.*


The masses can be taught by the professors. The thinking of generations are moulded by the teachers, the authors, the purveyors of information. To change a society, you change their thinking. Take them over from within- the Trojan Horse. Do it in movies and TV, because after all, it's only entertainment- not to be taken seriously, right? [/sarcasm]

Disagree? Enlighten me! :c)
Eddy ~~~


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## Stevo (Dec 23, 2006)

> "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything", the saying goes, yet what I stand for, or you, or your neighbor, whoever- each has their own values, their own morality, their own "guide" of what is right or wrong.



very true *Eddy* the short answer would be here, this is what we've all signed on for _collectively_ as Americans;


I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiances and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereign, to whom I or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that *I will support and defend the Constitution* and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic.... 

inasmuch as i do acknowledge the constitution as a living document _(i.e.-changes will be made)_ i do not take kindly to those in power that would violate it in any way due to the price paid for it...

a few examples might be the Orwellian survelliance we've been subject to via illegal wiretapping

or possibly an AG that would call the Geneva convention 'quaint', while incarcerations take place unconstitutionally, not to mention waterboarding _(rendition is iirc, the nice PC term)_ Any one of us could disappear tommorrow via the way things stand now {administrators take note!}

The plain fact that we have the first VP in history being supeona'd for the pack of lies they've foisted upon us should be an indicator here that there still exists some level of accountability and transparency , all is not lost down their 1984 kaliedescope of sins

to summarize in a {bumper sticker/sound byte} phrase;

if your _not_ pissed off, your _not_ paying attention....

~S~


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