# Is a compact, pocket sized AED possible ?



## emt seeking first job (Aug 22, 2010)

I am not an engineer. So I will make a guess. If anyone knows anything about this please chime in.

I am guessing the implanted ones can be small since they do not need to penetrate the skin.

Is there a limit to how small AED's can be made, since they have to have enough power to get through the skin?


----------



## rwik123 (Aug 22, 2010)

Didn't you already ask this question in the other thread you started?..


----------



## emt seeking first job (Aug 22, 2010)

yes, but it was not answered and that thread got hi-jacked and way off topic and turned into a stalking thread....

no intention to offend anyone


----------



## medicRob (Aug 22, 2010)

Doubt it.

http://tinyurl.com/2wo5ubu


----------



## emt seeking first job (Aug 22, 2010)

medicRob said:


> Doubt it.
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/2wo5ubu



Thank you for reply.

Since you know the patent # by heart, did you read through, does it say something about minimumn size ?


----------



## MrBrown (Aug 22, 2010)

I would much rather lug aroung a classic Lifepak 10 with big black paddles 

Oh those were the days, you there, get me some lignocaine stat!


----------



## abckidsmom (Aug 22, 2010)

emt seeking first job said:


> yes, but it was not answered and that thread got hi-jacked and way off topic and turned into a stalking thread....
> 
> no intention to offend anyone



This forum is different from every other forum I go to.  What does this mean?

Just wondering, and I hate to hijack.


To answer your question, no I don't think that a compact AED is possible given current battery technology.  But I do expect them to get smaller again by half of the current models.  Remember the first ones?  We had a Lifepak 5...18 pounds with a cassette recorder in it to provide "real feedback."  What a doorstop that was!


----------



## WolfmanHarris (Aug 22, 2010)

http://www.samaritanaed.com/

This one's fairly small. 
Not bad compared to the Lifepak 100, which was the first one I trained on.


----------



## jjesusfreak01 (Aug 22, 2010)

I don't think the size of the batteries is really the limiting factor here. In a monitor like the lifepak series, the batteries primarily serve to run the monitor functions. In stationary AEDs, the batteries are rated to provide 100s of shocks before they need recharging/replacing. The batteries just have to be able to supply enough current to charge the capacitors, and it doesn't take a large battery to do that. If your goal was a system that could fit in your pocket and would allow you to provide a few shocks while waiting for someone with a fullsize monitor to get on scene, that would likely be possible. Your other limitation would be from having to integrate some sort of a display into this system so you could read the rhythm, unless you wanted to make it a full aed.


----------



## firetender (Aug 22, 2010)

emt seeking first job said:


> Is there a limit to how small AED's can be made, since they have to have enough power to get through the skin?



In 1970, the first ones to leave the hospitals were 40 lbs. What are they now, about 4 lbs.? That's a ninety percent reduction in 40 years. I predict they will evolve into the size of a ring. You come to a patient, rip the shirt off, place your hand, palm down just to their left of their sternum, barbs extend, the shock is delivered, you raise your hand and exclaim, "RISE! You're healed!" and they do.


----------



## Sasha (Aug 23, 2010)

> you raise your hand and exclaim, "RISE! You're healed!" and they do.



What? You mean you don't do that now?


----------



## firetender (Aug 23, 2010)

Sasha said:


> What? You mean you don't do that now?



I do, but I tell ya, Sasha, I'd do it a lot more often except the paperwork for reimbursement is ridiculous!


----------



## Markhk (Aug 25, 2010)

The smallest unit I'm aware of that is on the market is the FRED Easyport AED, made by a Swiss company, Schiller. It is not approved for use in the US yet by the FDA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D95hN1CG90Q 

The AccessAED and AccessALS defibrillators by Access Cardiosystems released in early 2001 was the size of a small lunchbox and I thought really were great. But the small company folded after a large product recalled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p7c3-cI7ZI&feature=related


----------



## Too Old To Work (Aug 27, 2010)

The two limitations currently are battery and capacitor size. AICDs need smaller both because they use much less current to defibrillate. Batteries are getting smaller and more powerful, but capacitors are probably still the same size. The analysis circuitry is also much smaller, as are the displays. A very large scale IC and a few other components can do what it used to take a lot of discreet components to do, so the circuitry is much smaller. An LCD screen is certainly much more compact than a CRT as was used in early monitors. 

Also, the requirements for a personal use AED are different than what a used more frequently EMS AED needs.


----------



## 589661 (Aug 28, 2010)

*Anything is possible*

When they used to use those big a** defibulater in the hospitals they never thought it was possible to make them smaller or in fact to even use them in the field. Can you imagine being around for that change. Soon enough everything will fit in our pockets and the only thing you will need an ambulance for is transport


----------



## firetender (Aug 28, 2010)

In 1970, one heart attack, two medics, one monitor/defibrillator (40 lbs.), one Motorola "Orange Box" (20 lbs.), Tackle box/drug kit (say 20 lbs.), "Airway box" including "D" cylinder O2 (say 20 lbs.). That's a nice even number of 100 lbs. up the stairs, through the corridors and on to Gramma's house we go!

The amazing thing was, and this is no joke, we were so THRILLED back then to have all these tools to work with, we literally brought the whole ER to the patient in any medical emergency!


----------



## Too Old To Work (Aug 28, 2010)

589661 said:


> When they used to use those big a** defibulater in the hospitals they never thought it was possible to make them smaller or in fact to even use them in the field. Can you imagine being around for that change. Soon enough everything will fit in our pockets and the only thing you will need an ambulance for is transport



The advances in size are due to the advances in miniaturization of the circuitry used in the devices, better battery technology, and flat screen monitor technology to replace CRTs. I don't know that capacitor technology has improved that much as far as the actual defib circuit goes, but the large capacitors that used to be needed to power the CRT tubes aren't needed any longer. Add to that the use of plastic for the cases to replace the aluminum or steel that used to be used and you have the explanation for most of the size and weight savings. 

And since I was around for most of the changes you talk about, I don't have to imagine what it was like. ^_^


----------



## 589661 (Aug 28, 2010)

I wish i understood the electric circutry better than i do, i know the basics and can put together simple boards like an amplifier and things from a book we used in computer certification class but im more the software kinda guy, and a lot of hardware too as long as no mods are needed, i mean i can change a blown cap or two but thats about it


----------



## firecoins (Aug 29, 2010)

It all depends on the size of the pocket. Any AED could be pocket sized.


----------



## Charmeck (Oct 8, 2010)

firecoins said:


> It all depends on the size of the pocket. Any AED could be pocket sized.



This is true.....


----------



## djones44 (Oct 8, 2010)

Markhk said:


> The smallest unit I'm aware of that is on the market is the FRED Easyport AED, made by a Swiss company, Schiller. It is not approved for use in the US yet by the FDA.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D95hN1CG90Q



Thank you for that, I'm trying to get AEDs approved to be carried in passenger elevators like the emergency phones are now - elevAED.com. 

Concept: what would you have to add to an iPad (or iPhone) to turn it into an AED? The cables and pads, obviously, but I suspect the battery is close to functional, you have a nice display, strong processor - would adding a dedicated circuit do it? Touch screen defibrillation- why not?

Then all you'd need is to carry around the cables as a "distinctive" bolo-tie with amulet (pads).


----------



## jjesusfreak01 (Oct 8, 2010)

I imagine any modern smartphone has the processing power to analyze a heart rhythm and run a defibrillator. To make a smartphone or an iPad into a defibrillator, you would just need the pads and the battery/capacitor pack.


----------



## djones44 (Oct 8, 2010)

jjesusfreak01 said:


> I imagine any modern smartphone has the processing power to analyze a heart rhythm and run a defibrillator. To make a smartphone or an iPad into a defibrillator, you would just need the pads and the battery/capacitor pack.



I took a look at the Schiller Easyport mentioned and it is amazing - 5" square and one pound. Not approved for the US yet, of course. 

I can see them being mass produced for about $300 or rented for very little per month, in which case people with heart problems could keep one in their purse or glove compartment, and let those around them know it's there. 

The perfect gift for whackers - wow - an illegal defib!


----------



## jjesusfreak01 (Oct 8, 2010)

If those were legal in the US, I would have one. Probably put it my big first aid kit.


----------



## Markhk (Oct 11, 2010)

> Concept: what would you have to add to an iPad (or iPhone) to turn it into an AED? The cables and pads, obviously, but I suspect the battery is close to functional, you have a nice display, strong processor - would adding a dedicated circuit do it? Touch screen defibrillation- why not?



It's a cool idea, but the hurdle is FDA regulatory clearance. The iPad/iPhone is not an approved medical device and the FDA may be reluctant to approve a "high risk" device that needs to be plugged into an iPhone (AEDs are considered FDA Class III medical devices, the highest level of regulatory category). 



> I can see them being mass produced for about $300 or rented for very little per month



Unfortunately, the cost of Schiller Easyport is actually very high right now - over USD$ 3,000 if converted from the current Euro amount.  My favorite AED, which was pulled from the market, is still the AccessAED from Access Cardiosystems because of the revolutionary size and cost. The cost of the unit was about $1,000 if I recall correctly. Unfortunately, the company had to close because the AED market is really competitive right now, and the company had some very expensive legal/patent challenges to its products from a number of big wig defib companies. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p7c3-cI7ZI


----------



## djones44 (Oct 11, 2010)

Markhk said:


> It's a cool idea, but the hurdle is FDA regulatory clearance. The iPad/iPhone is not an approved medical device and the FDA may be reluctant to approve a "high risk" device that needs to be plugged into an iPhone (AEDs are considered FDA Class III medical devices, the highest level of regulatory category).



Very true, cellphones have been known to have batteries low on charge from time to time... 

Still, it would be neat to have a cheap supplementary device that could plug into a mobile device to access its processor, memory, dedicated software app, and battery. It would add the capacitor, ASIC chip and pads, which could be packaged flat and integrated into a thicker iPhone case. 

It could have a *****y chip on board that hounded the user about the charge level, or shut it down when it wasn't high enough?  

If it had a function whereby someone with a heart condition felt an arrest coming on, or a seizure, if they could manage to tap its screen they could initiate the device sounding an alarm and instructing bystanders on how to use it to intervene? It would probably be the first time an SCA victim saved themselves with an AED..  

It's true that the Feed and Drug people would balk, but maybe not in China or Europe. If the result was ubiquitous AEDs using this $100 add-on, it would be worthwhile. The goal is not FDA purity, it's saving lives, and they'll have to be astute about that.



> Unfortunately, the cost of Schiller Easyport is actually very high right now - over USD$ 3,000 if converted from the current Euro amount.



It's about a grand more than quality AEDS like the FRx, and surely this would come down if there was imminent competition and production climbed. I think a lot of boomers would lease them or build them into their cars, as an example. 

As they become more of a commodity, and globally distributed, the FDA will have to weigh public safety vs product safety, which are not the same thing. 

I am advocating for AEDs to be installed in elevators with elevator code regulators, and they have to choose between an AED on the elevator decreasing elevator safety vs. the obvious increase in public heart safety. 

It's hard for them because they're very conservative, of necessity, but the public's safety will hopefully over-ride their concerns. With 400K dying annually in the US of SCA, a negative decision could leave blood on their hands...


----------



## John E (Oct 11, 2010)

*???*

how many people die in elevators each year?

John E


----------



## djones44 (Oct 11, 2010)

John E said:


> how many people die in elevators each year?
> 
> John E



Methinks you may not be clear on the concept?
www.elevaed.com

Dwight


----------



## Markhk (Oct 11, 2010)

John E said:


> how many people die in elevators each year?
> 
> John E



I think the idea makes a lot of sense actually to put AEDs in an elevator. We always struggle to find out the "best" place to put an AED in a building - particularly high rises where "vertical response times" may be very long and you might not have the funds for 1 AED on every floor. Putting an AED in an elevator is a great awareness tool because so many people use the elevator in the course of a day, so they are more likely to realize where the unit is. If a cardiac arrest does in fact occur, laypersons in the building know that all they need to do is summon an elevator and hey, there is the AED. Also, since so many elevators have cameras in them already, it might help with deterring theft. 

Also, if you are able to push the buttons to get into and out of an elevator, it's a pretty good bet you have the psychomotor skills to use an AED.


----------



## Richard (Oct 12, 2010)

http://www.spservices.co.uk/ireland...cts_id/3946?osCsid=o4vgg7dord27455cu6n95qh5l3

Here you are.


----------



## C.T.E.M.R. (Oct 26, 2010)

Honestly im surprised a pocket sized is not currently on the market. If you think of implanted pacemaker/defibs, they need batteries after 3-5 years and on 1 battery can deliver multiple shocks, I personally watched a family member in v-tach get shocked 35 times By theirs, when they accessed the unit by computer it had registered 5 something shocks and still had plenty of battery left. the only issue would be the pads. But give it time well see one.


----------



## djones44 (Oct 26, 2010)

C.T.E.M.R. said:


> Honestly im surprised a pocket sized is not currently on the market. If you think of implanted pacemaker/defibs, they need batteries after 3-5 years and on 1 battery can deliver multiple shocks, I personally watched a family member in v-tach get shocked 35 times By theirs, when they accessed the unit by computer it had registered 5 something shocks and still had plenty of battery left. the only issue would be the pads. But give it time well see one.



I see that the Schiller one has been out since 2005, I believe. But pricing for it is high - $2-3K. 

Does anyone know its history, or what the current marketing status of it is? Is it still made or??


----------

