# Am I in the wrong field?



## LawKev (Aug 9, 2010)

Hello,

I not too long ago recieved my EMT-B in New Jersey. I am a Muslim and I have had a beard for about thirteen years. After reading some posts on this site I beginning to think that I made a bad decision becoming an EMT. I was planning on going to medic school after getting some experience. Being clean shaven is not an option for me because I am orthodox. I was thinking about taking the FDNY test in New York City but they clearly state on the Notice of Examination that the is a no facial hair policy. I know that there are alternative masks but I hear they are costly and may place an undue hardship on the employer. I'm not sure if an employer will allow me to pay for the mask myself and if so will I be buying a new mask everytime I change employers or go to medic school? My beard is about 2 inches long and about and 1 inch at the sides. It cuts off at the neck like. I always keep it tidy. Should I waste my time with this job or should I look for something else? I have attached a couple of photos. 

Thanks in advance


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## akflightmedic (Aug 9, 2010)

There have been many lawsuits over the past 10 years in regards to this issue. Decisions have gone both ways, religious rights win, safety wins.

You have to ask yourself, is it worth it for you?

Without a proper mask, you put yourself at risk whether it be a fire or an active TB patient. In the medical situations, you can always say well I accept the risks of my decision not to wear a proper fitted mask. However, will you still say that years later when you are ill and screaming for worker's compensation?

In a fire situation, again you may assume the risk but is it fair to make your coworkers part of that risk as they are the ones who will now have to risk themselves to extract you should you go down due to an ill fitting mask. Is it fair to make your demands, their demands?

I do not know the answer to this, it is for you to decide and how far you wish to go with it.

There are services that will hire you, mostly EMS only and allow facial hair. I have worn a full beard for years while working in various medical capacities. Ambulance, flight, hospital...you have options, it just depends how thoroughly you seek them.

Good Luck!


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## LawKev (Aug 9, 2010)

akflightmedic said:


> There are services that will hire you, mostly EMS only and allow facial hair. I have worn a full beard for years while working in various medical capacities. Ambulance, flight, hospital...you have options, it just depends how thoroughly you seek them.



You say there are services that will hire me. I'm a little new to this whole thing. Do you mean like EMT transport services or 9/11? Are you trying to say they would hire me knowing that I would be at risk or they would assign me duties where I would not be at risk? What are my chances of becoming a Paramedic? Please explain and btw I don't intend on putting myself and my family at risk. Actually, if I new the beard was such a big deal I would not have spent almost a year getting the license. I found this out towards the end of my training. I'm not looking for money or a lawsuit. Quite frankly, I don't think I would bother going to court. 

Thank You


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## Sassafras (Aug 9, 2010)

My volley unit is 911 and many men wear some form of facial hair (normally a goatee).

My IFT unit is paid and again they have facial hair (my partner today had food stuck in it and I kept trying to help him get to it w/o a mirror and w/o touching him b/c I would have ended up picking his nose LOL).


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## rescue99 (Aug 9, 2010)

LawKev said:


> Hello,
> 
> I not too long ago recieved my EMT-B in New Jersey. I am a Muslim and I have had a beard for about thirteen years. After reading some posts on this site I beginning to think that I made a bad decision becoming an EMT. I was planning on going to medic school after getting some experience. Being clean shaven is not an option for me because I am orthodox. I was thinking about taking the FDNY test in New York City but they clearly state on the Notice of Examination that the is a no facial hair policy. I know that there are alternative masks but I hear they are costly and may place an undue hardship on the employer. I'm not sure if an employer will allow me to pay for the mask myself and if so will I be buying a new mask everytime I change employers or go to medic school? My beard is about 2 inches long and about and 1 inch at the sides. It cuts off at the neck like. I always keep it tidy. Should I waste my time with this job or should I look for something else? I have attached a couple of photos.
> 
> Thanks in advance



Some private companies don't have an issue with short, well trimmed beards. One of my students has had a beard since he was an MFR student..he's now a medic. It hasn't been a problem for him however, he isn't fire.


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## LawKev (Aug 9, 2010)

ok, I appreciate the replies. I'll give it a try and won't keep my hopes up too high.


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## MMiz (Aug 9, 2010)

As has been previously said, the courts have gone both ways.  Check out this thread for a more recent decision:

http://emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=11691

The reality is that employers don't always follow the rules or the law, and you may be at a disadvantage.  Especially in this tough economic climate where it's already challenging for EMT-Basics to find a job, the beard may not be working in your favor.

I suggest calling around, sending out applications and resumes, and keep working towards finding a job.  If you're having a hard time finding employment in New Jersey, we have a few hundred members in your exact situation.

Good luck!


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## emt seeking first job (Aug 10, 2010)

LawKev, let the hiring contact at a particular organization answer that question.

I would think there must be some work around, somebody, Gall's etc, must sell some gadget that covers your beard.

Any employer is entitled to make reasonable accomodations for you.

Best wishes for your job search.


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## firecoins (Aug 10, 2010)

LawKev said:


> Hello,
> 
> I not too long ago recieved my EMT-B in New Jersey. I am a Muslim and I have had a beard for about thirteen years. After reading some posts on this site I beginning to think that I made a bad decision becoming an EMT. I was planning on going to medic school after getting some experience. Being clean shaven is not an option for me because I am orthodox. I was thinking about taking the FDNY test in New York City but they clearly state on the Notice of Examination that the is a no facial hair policy. I know that there are alternative masks but I hear they are costly and may place an undue hardship on the employer. I'm not sure if an employer will allow me to pay for the mask myself and if so will I be buying a new mask everytime I change employers or go to medic school? My beard is about 2 inches long and about and 1 inch at the sides. It cuts off at the neck like. I always keep it tidy. Should I waste my time with this job or should I look for something else? I have attached a couple of photos.
> 
> Thanks in advance



You will not work with FDNY with a beard. When I applied to FDNY, it was made clear I would never have a beard as long as I worked there.  

There are many companioes that allow people to have beards.


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## terrible one (Aug 10, 2010)

For a private some places don't care some do. For a FD I'd say close 99% will not let you have a beard


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## Akulahawk (Aug 10, 2010)

Fire Departments typically won't allow beards as it's difficult, to impossible to ensure that your beard will allow you to get a good seal with an SCBA mask on any given day. If they do, they will require it to be trimmed to a specific profile that allows for a good seal. Same with private companies, if they're risk-adverse. Out here, none of the FD's allow for a beard, but they do allow a mustache trimmed to the corner of the mouth, specifically because of the SCBA fit requirements. The private ambulance companies out here also follow the same basic requirement as the N95 masks typically seal along the very same lines that the SCBA masks do.

I applaud you wanting to stay within your religious beliefs and being an EMT. I hope you find a service that can accommodate you. I really, really do!


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## LawKev (Aug 10, 2010)

Thank u all.


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## emt seeking first job (Aug 11, 2010)

*....a bit of googling....*

http://www.shrm.org/LegalIssues/FederalResources/Pages/NoBeardPolicy.aspx


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## LawKev (Aug 12, 2010)

What is there difference in the duties of the FD EMS and private EMS? I'm just trying to get why they use different equipment like SCUBA masks. I thought the fire fighter goes into the burning building and the EMS would have an area for triage for example. I understand what is being said regarding saving lives and I agree. Islam teaches that there should be no harm nor reciprocating harm i.e. don't harm yourself or others. This why I asked if I am in the wrong field. If what you all are saying is don't go to the FD or I'll have a fight then I won't go. I don't want to fight and I really appreciate all of the feedback. 

Thanks


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## LawKev (Aug 12, 2010)

For those who would like to understand more about the beard issue amongst Muslims you can watch this video. It is about a Newark police officer and his beard. I actually met him when was living in Jersey. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxNKVKc5F0s


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## irish_handgrenade (Aug 15, 2010)

A: that is not a tidy beard. 

B: why are you allowed to trim it but not cut it off? Why do you have to have it? Why can't it be shorter if you can in fact trim it?

C: Why can you shave your mustache but not your beard? 

D: I will never understand religions that tell you what you can look like...

Final answer: Yes you are wasting your time trying to work for an ambulance service with that beard. maybe if it was more maintained, but not the way it looks now. 

Does the actual work not conflict with your religion? touching non-muslims, and seeing naked people and all that??


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## LawKev (Aug 16, 2010)

irish_handgrenade said:


> A: that is not a tidy beard.
> 
> B: why are you allowed to trim it but not cut it off? Why do you have to have it? Why can't it be shorter if you can in fact trim it?
> 
> ...




I read your post but I'll be a gentleman and not reply to you.


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## irish_handgrenade (Aug 17, 2010)

just my opinion, but why not answer the questions and educate those who obviously don't understand your religion?


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## fast65 (Aug 17, 2010)

irish_handgrenade said:


> just my opinion, but why not answer the questions and educate those who obviously don't understand your religion?



+1

I'm curious about the answers


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## akflightmedic (Aug 17, 2010)

irish_handgrenade said:


> just my opinion, but why not answer the questions and educate those who obviously don't understand your religion?



Probably because he is wise enough to "see" the tone of the first post challenging him and has refrained from answering any further to avoid the obvious path this thread will take.

He came with a very specific question, he did not come to explain his beliefs, defend them, persuade, convince, convert or anything else and he should not have to.

He got the answers to his specific question, everything else in this thread is irrelevant.

If you truly want to know the answers, Google is at your fingertips and libraries are in your town.


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## irish_handgrenade (Aug 17, 2010)

I see you trying to take the high road and all that. I do not agree with religions that challenge people to look or dress a certain way. That's my feelings on that. Yes I know he didn't come on to this forum to explain himself or what ever, but what did he expect to happen. This is the internetz, and people are free to ask what ever questions they want. I asked the questions because it honestly does not make sense to me. Why not grow a mustache and lose the beard? Why is one form of facial hair better or worse than another? Would I hire him? No I wouldn't, but not because of his religion, but because if I changed policy for one person I would have to change it for another and another and another. Policy is in place for a reason and if you can't comply then YES you are in the wrong profession, and you should make your life decisions appropriate to your values.


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## medic417 (Aug 17, 2010)

akflightmedic said:


> Probably because he is wise enough to "see" the tone of the first post challenging him and has refrained from answering any further to avoid the obvious path this thread will take.
> 
> He came with a very specific question, he did not come to explain his beliefs, defend them, persuade, convince, convert or anything else and he should not have to.
> 
> ...



Exactly.  If my faith were attacked like his was I would not respond either as this is not the place to discuss religion.  I applaud him on choosing to be the more professional person.  

As to a beard.  It is service dependant.  Some hire no matter how a person appears as we have even seen based on the discussions about exposed tattoos.  As long as the OP understands that some places will not hire because of the beard and is ok with that I say go ahead and join EMS.


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## Chimpie (Aug 17, 2010)

irish_handgrenade said:


> just my opinion, but why not answer the questions and educate those who obviously don't understand your religion?



This thread is not about religion per se, but more about policies on beards.



irish_handgrenade said:


> Yes I know he didn't come on to this forum to explain himself or what ever, but what did he expect to happen. This is the internetz, and people are free to ask what ever questions they want.



You're free to ask questions here as long as they are on-topic.  Asking about why a religion allows a beard but not a mustache is off topic for this thread.

If you wish to know the answers to your questions, I would suggest sending him a PM.


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## firecoins (Aug 17, 2010)

I support the Hatzolah, the Orthodox Jewish ambulance service.  All them are required to have beards. If they can do it, I see no reason why we can not have Othodox Muslims doing the same.


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## FLEMTP (Aug 17, 2010)

firecoins said:


> I support the Hatzolah, the Orthodox Jewish ambulance service.  All them are required to have beards. If they can do it, I see no reason why we can not have Othodox Muslims doing the same.



First of all that beard is not professional looking. No way would I let an EMT or medic with an appearance like that go near me. 

Second of all, if he wants to join the profession, he needs to play by the rules. Lose the beard. If your religion wont let you, then you have some soul searching to do about what your "god" wants vs what you want. 

I have a feeling the orthodox jewish ambulance service serves primarily orthodox jews. I wouldnt expect that they would be taking 911 calls on me or my family. 



Chimpie said:


> You're free to ask questions here as long as they are on-topic. Asking about why a religion allows a beard but not a mustache is off topic for this thread.



I think it is a legitimate question. if his religion mandates he grow an unprofessional looking beard, then what else will his religion dictate he does while he is working? 

If he's on his way to a 911 call and its time to pray, will he be mandated to pull over and pray for 2 hours ?

How far would he take it? What else would he "have" to do? or better yet, what if his religion conflicts with treating a particular type of patient?

Would he treat a homosexual patient? What about a female driver? or a female stripper? would he be allowed to directly speak to a female patient? 

or what if his partner was a female? Would he allow her to drive?

I think these are legitimate questions. If he is willing to dig in his heels about something like a beard, how far will he take it in the name of religion?


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## medic417 (Aug 17, 2010)

FLEMTP there are many services that allow emt's to work with beards.  Heck beards look more professional than many of the exposed tattoos so many on here have and seem to demand the right to wear.  

You do pose some good questions though about would he be able to treat these individuals.  But perhaps we can start a new discussion about what we do when we encounter patients that our faith, or feelings, or whatever condemn etc.


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## LawKev (Aug 17, 2010)

I have no problem treating patients and I never stated anything about treating patients. If anyone is really interested in knowing about the beard in the Islamic religion then they how use google.


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## LawKev (Aug 17, 2010)

I'm not that desperate and yes my religion IS more important than being an EMT. If I find something and I can be successful with it then fine and if not then fine. It's not like I'm unemployed or anything. Besides many people think being an EMT is a crappy job anyway because your on the front lines and you don't make anything worth mentioning. Sorry I had to go there and no offense intended to those dedicated to saving lives.

Peace


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## jroyster06 (Aug 18, 2010)

As far as a medic i dont see much of a problem. However I am also a firefighter. I can tell you that with a beard like you describe it will be hard to get a proper mask to mouth seal in an SCBA. Most places around here do not allow facial hair past the corners of your mouth. I can tell you also that with out a properly sized mask WITHOUT facial hair, its very easy to have an inproper seal. I ran a fire last Saturday morning and on my first bottle of air i was done. I did not have a proper seal and the mask was leaking. After i started feeling pretty horrible, i checked myself out of the actual fire fighting for the duration of the scene and went to running a tanker instead. 

Thts just with from personal events, my advice is to log onto  couple of Fire forums and see what they have to say about it.


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## fast65 (Aug 18, 2010)

LawKev said:


> I'm not that desperate and yes my religion IS more important than being an EMT. If I find something and I can be successful with it then fine and if not then fine. It's not like I'm unemployed or anything. Besides many people think being an EMT is a crappy job anyway because your on the front lines and you don't make anything worth mentioning.* Sorry I had to go there and no offense intended to those dedicated to saving lives.*
> 
> Peace



Quite honestly I don't believe you had to go there, to MOST being an EMT is a noble profession, it's one where you really can make a difference, but to do that, you truly have to believe in what you're doing...

Just my opinion though.


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## LucidResq (Aug 18, 2010)

fast65 said:


> Quite honestly I don't believe you had to go there, to MOST being an EMT is a noble profession, it's one where you really can make a difference, but to do that, you truly have to believe in what you're doing...
> 
> Just my opinion though.



Yeah being an EMT is cool and all but so is being a dental hygienist and making a livable wage for you and your family. It's nothing against the profession, it's reality.


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## clibb (Aug 18, 2010)

LucidResq said:


> Yeah being an EMT is cool and all but so is being a dental hygienist and making a livable wage for you and your family. It's nothing against the profession, it's reality.



Well, while on the dental hygienist subject. I'd like to call mine a professional. I go to the dentist to see her not my dentist. But, then again, my dental hygienist is a little hot blond


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## LucidResq (Aug 18, 2010)

clibb said:


> Well, while on the dental hygienist subject. I'd like to call mine a professional. I go to the dentist to see her not my dentist. But, then again, my dental hygienist is a little hot blond



I had a nighmare experience with a dentist recently. Seriously, I should have filed a complaint with the board it was so bad. Like... performing 4 hr procedures with no assistance so I was choking on my own blood because there was no suction bad... like couldn't get the crown for my root canal right so it took literally 5 attempts over 6 months bad and the entire time I was in so much pain I couldn't bite down at all bad. 

The only highlight was the hygienist who probably would have been more competent than him and definitely took better care of me. She was very cute as well... I don't swing that way but I can appreciate beauty of my own sex.


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## clibb (Aug 18, 2010)

LucidResq said:


> I had a nighmare experience with a dentist recently. Seriously, I should have filed a complaint with the board it was so bad. Like... performing 4 hr procedures with no assistance so I was choking on my own blood because there was no suction bad... like couldn't get the crown for my root canal right so it took literally 5 attempts over 6 months bad and the entire time I was in so much pain I couldn't bite down at all bad.
> 
> The only highlight was the hygienist who probably would have been more competent than him and definitely took better care of me. She was very cute as well... I don't swing that way but I can appreciate beauty of my own sex.



That's disgusting! Report his ***! I would had been so pissed! The only that pisses me off at my dentist is that I don't get enough time to finish the movies!


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## jroyster06 (Aug 18, 2010)

Based on your current attitude with your post i would say you may need to consider something else. I know that my heart is 100% in to it. Doesnt seem like yours ever would be. Maybe im wrong and hopefully i am but if you dont like the job already why start. Not trying to turn you away from it just sayin.


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## LawKev (Aug 18, 2010)

Yes I applaud all EMTs. If I was not serious about it then I would not have spent hours studying and money going back and forth to class. It took almost a year to get the license because my school spread the classes out. Ironically, it was a Muslim who was a former EMT who gave me the idea. He worked for years and did not have a problem with his beard. I spoke with him since I started this thread and he told me not to shave because there are options. Then he informed me about a brother (Muslim) who worked as an EMT with a fire department in New Jersey. I myself think I recall seeing an EMT in New Jersey with a "Muslim" beard but I don't know if he was in fact. I started this thread because I wanted to hear what the non-Muslims had to say. I have no intention on getting into firefighting. I see some of what they do and it takes a bigger man than me for that job. My mother is a nurse practitioner and I grew up around the medical field. She used to take me to work with her and the whole nine. So I am interested in the medical field in general. Maybe I don't have what it takes to be an EMT. There is only one way to find out. If it does not work then I intend nursing. I know EMTvv  I'm not going to trim down my beard or or anything like to become an EMT and if you think that's weird then I know Christians who will not take a job that required them to work on Sundays. I would prefer you do you own research about the beard issue in Islam and then I if you have any questions I'll answer what I can. That's better than me telling you something and then you coming back saying you heard something else. 

I hope this clears things up and If not let me know.

Thank you


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## Chimpie (Aug 18, 2010)

Again, please keep the thread on topic.  Talking about other parts of the Muslim religion is good for another thread, not this one.  Same goes for the dentist posts.

Keep it on topic or it gets closed.


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## LawKev (Aug 18, 2010)

I forgot to mention that my beard is rather small compared to some others I know. I know Muslims with BIG beards who work in all kinds of professions such as police officers, doctors, computer geeks, I can go on and on. The same thing goes for many Jewish people as well as Sikhs and many are self employed as well. To assume that every beard is dirty and nasty is ignorance. Some men care for their beards more than a female cares for the hair on her head.


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## firetender (Aug 18, 2010)

If you're truly interested in the work, LawKev, you will find something where the presence of your beard will not interfere with the work you have to do. It will be a situation where your safety and the safety of those in your charge is not in the least compromised.

The investment you made in emergency study can do nothing but help you in ANYTHING in medicine you choose to pursue. If you find you can better fulfill your mission as a Muslim through service in the healing arts, there's nothing that says you can't. 

You're no different than most in that, in some places, something you have or had acts as a barrier. You just have to find other places. Good journey!


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## ShannahQuilts (Aug 19, 2010)

It was alluded to earlier, but I want to specifically call out that many religions have restrictions on how one may look.  I know one woman from a Christian following whose sect says that one can't wear jewelry, like necklaces, bracelets, etc., only wedding rings.  Yet you *can* wear brooches, even really fancy jeweled ones, if it's to close up your neckline.  You don't have to restrict yourself to a plain safety pin.  That's the one that really has me scratching my head.

I think most of us have things that are more important to us than other things.  I value my husband way more than I value George Bush, even though the secret service might disagree.

All of that said, if you feel you have a talent or calling for being an EMT, I would encourage you to find a service that allows a beard.  Sure, there are lots of EMTs looking for work, but if you have strength of character, calm demeanor, varied experience due to your mom, etc., you could well be a more attractive candidate than the other folks applying.  When there is an opening, someone has to get it.  Why not you?

You also don't have to be tyrannized by the "or", either.  You can work as an EMT, and you can also explore other careers to see if you find something you like even better.  

I wish you all the best in finding an awesome job.


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## LawKev (Aug 19, 2010)

*A clarification*

I was advised by a friend that I should go ahead and explain the beard issue. I was hesitant because I am not the best at explaining things. But here it goes:

Allah, the Creator, revealed to Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) to order the Muslim men to grow their beards and trim their mustaches. The reasons were:

1. In order to be distinguished from women.

2. In order to be distinguished from some non-Muslims of his time who use to shave or cut their bears.

I can't recall if there was a third. The legitimate Scholars of Islam have agreed that the beard is an obligation for the Muslim man. The one who is genetically capable and does not do so is committing a sin. The first few generations of Muslims did not shave. Some of them would trim their beards but not like you see today where a man would have a little piece of hair under his lip and call it a beard. That is the "modern" beard. Some of the Prophet's Companions used to hold the beard with the the hand and trim what is under the hand. Then there may have been some who trimmed more than that but for the most part the Scholars only mention what was famous and well know from the actions of the Companions. Finally, some Scholars take the order on face value i.e. don't touch it unless you are sick and need to cut it for treatment or it is deformed or has a blemish so you trim to fix that. Trimming for beatification is not permissible because the beard in it self is beautiful. Then there are those who, like I said, cut what is below a hand hold. The later generations copied the customs of the non-Muslims and stopped growing the beard. Some of them even claim that it is not an obligation and they are incorrect. This is by no means the best and most complete explanation. I just wanted to give you guys an idea without getting into too much detail and using allot of religious jargon.

Thanks


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## FLEMTP (Aug 20, 2010)

irregardless of the reasons behind the beard.. if you want to be an EMT, lose the beard. If your religion wont let you do that, then your religion wont let you be an EMT. 

Plain and Simple.


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## emt seeking first job (Aug 20, 2010)

*just a few questions pertainant to the thread*

First of all, I am not muslim nor do I have an interest in becoming one.

Secondly, I do not attribute the acts against the USA to be the work of all muslims.

Thirdly, as a student of history, I can not help comparing public sentiments towards muslims with that towards the british loyalists just after the revolution, ethinic japnese and germans  during WW 2, and ethnic russians during the cold war.

BACK TO THE BEARDS....

You mean to tell me with all the specialized equipment available in this country to the public safety professions, have you seen the Galls catalog lately, that NOBODY has come up with masks that would accomodate beards...?

What about Hatzolah ? Many of them have some heavy beards ? What about SRCA ? EMS in muslim nations ?


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## akflightmedic (Aug 20, 2010)

FLEMTP said:


> irregardless



No such word...plain and simple.


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## medic417 (Aug 20, 2010)

FLEMTP said:


> irregardless of the reasons behind the beard.. if you want to be an EMT, lose the beard. If your religion wont let you do that, then your religion wont let you be an EMT.
> 
> Plain and Simple.



Why should he when so many others have them?


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## LawKev (Aug 20, 2010)

I don't think there is much of a market for alternative masks.


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## medic417 (Aug 20, 2010)

If you work in an environment with a true need for more than a standard surgical mask.  The PAPR works with beards as it requires a loose seal.

http://www.tfhrc.gov/hnr20/bridge/model/persona/perset.htm

"Powered Air Purifying Respirator (PAPR)
The air purifying respirators described previously depend on the wearer inhaling to draw the air through the respirator filter. The powered air purifying respirator uses a battery-powered blower that passes the contaminated air through the filter. The face covering can be a half-face mask or a full-face mask with an air flow rate of greater than 4 cfm (cubic feet per minute) for a tight fitting face-piece while 6 cfm is necessary for a loose fitting PAPR. Under normal conditions of use, the worker is supplied with more air than he/she can breathe so that the inside of the face-piece is under positive pressure and no contaminated air can leak in. Under positive pressure, all leakage should be outward rather than inward."


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## emt seeking first job (Aug 21, 2010)

*purely objective response*

The OP needs to pick one of two things:

1) and ems agency that will allow the beard

2) a muslim congregation that will allow a clean shaven face


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## FLEMTP (Aug 21, 2010)

akflightmedic said:


> No such word...plain and simple.



Really? 

From the Merriam Webster Online Dictionary :


Main Entry: ir·re·gard·less
Pronunciation: \ˌir-i-ˈgärd-ləs\
Function: adverb
Etymology: probably blend of irrespective and regardless
Date: circa 1912

nonstandard : regardless
usage Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. *The most frequently repeated remark about it is that “there is no such word.” There is such a word, however.* It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irregardless


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## akflightmedic (Aug 21, 2010)

It is a double negative.

Did you read the last sentence of your post?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irregardless

Quote: It should also be noted that the definition in most dictionaries is simply listed as regardless (along with the note nonstandard, or similar). Merriam–Webster even states "Use regardless instead."

Also from Merrian-Webster is the definition you posted however you left off the last sentence which is seemingly the most important.

Do not debate with half responses and pick and choose facts which seem to support your point but actually do not when viewed in it's entirety.

Here it is in its uncensored form...(Be sure to read the last sentence which you omitted)

Main Entry: ir·re·gard·less
Pronunciation: \ˌir-i-ˈgärd-ləs\
Function: adverb
Etymology: probably blend of irrespective and regardless
Date: circa 1912

nonstandard : regardless
usage Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that “there is no such word.” There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.


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## LucidResq (Aug 21, 2010)

I find it sad that people who, as part of their chosen profession, are expected to interact with and show basic respect for people of extremely diverse cultures, religions, backgrounds, and socioeconomic status are being so, well, disrespectful.  

You may take issue with Islamic tenets, but who cares? Don't convert. About "religions that tell you what you can look like"... 

1 Timothy 2:9 (NIV): "I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes."

1 Corinthians 11:14: "Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him."

Deuteronomy 22:5: "A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this."

Leviticus 19:27: "'Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard."

Christianity, Islam, Judaism... you'll find restrictions on dress and appearance in every major religion. Of course these are all subject to interpretation and some followers will abide by them and some will not, but they're all there. 

Obviously having a beard in EMS may be problematic. The issues here are safety and hirability... not which religion is right or wrong. 

Legally... according to Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964... "It shall be an unlawful employment practice for an employer to fail or refuse to hire or to discharge any individual, or otherwise to discriminate against any individual with respect to his compensation, terms, conditions, or privileges of employment, because of such individual’s race, color, religion, sex, or national origin..." 

The important language comes in the definition of religion... "The term “religion” includes all aspects of religious observance and practice, as well as belief, unless an employer demonstrates that he is unable to reasonably accommodate to an employee’s or prospective employee’s religious observance or practice without undue hardship on the conduct of the employer’s business."

It's that "undue hardship" part that's up for interpretation. It could be very easy for an employer to claim undue hardship based on potential safety problems and the cost of accommodating a beard. 


Title VII

Here is an interesting case regarding two Islamic Newark police officers who refused to shave their beards (Federal court ruled in their favor).


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## irish_handgrenade (Aug 21, 2010)

I'm agnostic, I don't agree with most of the stuff that goes on in denominational churches. As to the irregardless posts, it is a word, if it is in the dictionary and has a definition it is a word, _irregardlessof what would be a better choice of vocabulary._


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## LucidResq (Aug 21, 2010)

Yeah I consider myself agnostic too, but I don't see why that would motivate me to doggedly question another person's own religious practices. I have my own reasons for my beliefs, and everyone else has their reasons for their belief system too, and those reasons, and consequently their beliefs and practices, are no more or less valid than my own. 

Believe me, there are some things that some religious groups are doing that I find highly objectionable... such as televangelists defrauding innocent people, Muslim extremists blowing up innocent people, Christian extremists blowing up innocent people, etc etc (hmmm some kind of pattern here - people with ulterior motives flying under the banner of a particular religion while the vast majority of adherents to that religion don't do such things or approve of it). 

If one of your biggest concerns is one guy who wants to keep his beard for religious reasons and be an EMT, or that common interpretations of some religions require men to be bearded, you need to open your eyes and see what else is going on.


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## akflightmedic (Aug 21, 2010)

irish_handgrenade said:


> I'm agnostic, I don't agree with most of the stuff that goes on in denominational churches. As to the irregardless posts, it is a word, if it is in the dictionary and has a definition it is a word, _irregardlessof what would be a better choice of vocabulary._



Even when the very definition is to tell you it is wrong and to not use it?


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## irish_handgrenade (Aug 22, 2010)

Yes it's still a word, however bad a word it is it is still a recognized word. And as for openly questioning his religion, I think I should have cleared this up sooner. I voiced an opinion on his original post, and I also asked some questions that popped into my head that i was mildly curious about, but not enough to get off my butt and Google them myself cuz who knows what kinda stuff I would have ended up looking at. And then he seemed to get pissed about my questions more than my opinion  which made me more curious so I pursued it.


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## Seaglass (Aug 22, 2010)

irish_handgrenade said:


> Yes it's still a word, however bad a word it is it is still a recognized word. And as for openly questioning his religion, I think I should have cleared this up sooner. I voiced an opinion on his original post, and I also asked some questions that popped into my head that i was mildly curious about, but not enough to get off my butt and Google them myself cuz who knows what kinda stuff I would have ended up looking at. And then he seemed to get pissed about my questions more than my opinion  which made me more curious so I pursued it.



Having worked with several observant Muslims in various environments, I'll answer those based on my experience. Any particular Muslim's answers will likely vary based on their interpretation of the Quran and ahadith. If they answer at all, that is. They're used to people asking those questions because they want to discredit them, not because they actually want to know the answers, so it's usually not worth it. 

Women driving: That's a Saudi thing, and not a law anywhere else in the Muslim world. I drove. Nobody cared. 

Treating female patients: It's nice if there's a female crew member with equal or better training who can do it, but not an issue if not. 

Treating non-Muslim patients: Also not a problem for those that will apply for the job. 

Female coworkers wearing typical Western clothing: If anyone cared, I never heard about it. 

Praying when working: If you actually need to be doing something, like taking care of a patient, you can make it up later. 

Praying for hours each time: Think about it. 2 hour prayers at 5 points in the day? No Muslim would ever hold any job. It usually only takes a couple minutes. 

Beard: OK for EMTs in some companies; not OK for any FFs I've heard of because of the facepiece issue. PAPRs are great if there's a specific, known hazard, but you need different filters for different stuff, so they don't work for everything. SCBA, which will protect you regardless of what's in the air, is the way to go for firefighting. I'm not aware of any masks that work around that. (Of general interest on the dress code subject, though, there's a case of a female FF who wears a headscarf on duty. Apparently a standard hood works just fine for the religious requirements when fighting a fire, and it comes apart if a patient tries to yank it.)


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## Aidey (Aug 22, 2010)

^^^ Reading the case of the female FF it sounds like they reached a pretty good resolution. 

I think the optimal solution is compromise on both parts. An employer may be able to get specialized masks that are adapted to a short beard. If they are willing to get those masks, the employee needs to decide if shortening his beard to the length that will work with the mask is acceptable.


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## Bloom-IUEMT (Aug 23, 2010)

FLEMTP said:


> Really?
> 
> From the Merriam Webster Online Dictionary :
> 
> ...



Really? Just stop. I found AIN'T in the dictionary as well, _doesn't mean it's a proper English word_. Before long, word's like "cuz" will be featured as well. It's not a proper word, so don't use it.

To the OP, my question is, and I'm not trying to incite any kind of discussion about it, why would you want to work for a city that obviously isn't too receptive (read: hateful) towards Muslims?


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## Seaglass (Aug 23, 2010)

Aidey said:


> ^^^ Reading the case of the female FF it sounds like they reached a pretty good resolution.
> 
> I think the optimal solution is compromise on both parts. An employer may be able to get specialized masks that are adapted to a short beard. If they are willing to get those masks, the employee needs to decide if shortening his beard to the length that will work with the mask is acceptable.



That would be nice, but I can't find any evidence that those masks exist. Even a little hair--OSHA claims that one day's stubble is enough--can supposedly interfere with getting and keeping a good seal on the facepieces that are in common use. Then again, some departments allow up to a quarter inch. From what I can dig up, it seems like some people can pass fit tests with very short beards, while others can't. While that's pretty important, I wish they'd conduct fit testing in more realistic conditions... sweat makes a big difference. I'm somewhat skeptical about whether it's really possible to maintain a good seal with a beard in actual fire conditions. 

The DCFD court decision seems to partially rest on the fact that a leaking facepiece still shouldn't allow any air in. That's true, but it also will run down an air cylinder too quickly. Part of their decision also takes an earlier ruling that firefighters can be utilized in other capacities when APRs are needed into account. I don't think that's a great solution, either. Unfortunately, DC seems to have failed to provide much data on the actual impact of either problem. I suspect that this case could have easily gone the other way if they had, as a similar one did in Pennsylvania. 

I've also heard of people who put Vaseline on their beards to get a good seal. For obvious reasons, I think that's quite possibly the worst safety idea ever...


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## LucidResq (Aug 24, 2010)

Seaglass said:


> That would be nice, but I can't find any evidence that those masks exist.



Again, the PAPR. Mentioned here in Duke Hospital policy. 

Expensive and cumbersome, but it exists.


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## Seaglass (Aug 24, 2010)

LucidResq said:


> Again, the PAPR. Mentioned here in Duke Hospital policy.
> 
> Expensive and cumbersome, but it exists.



As I mentioned earlier, they don't really work for firefighting. They only filter the ambient air before delivering it, which can expose the user to anything that filter isn't designed for. There's no filter that works for everything--you pick different ones based on what you'll encounter, which doesn't work in an environment where you don't know the hazard. I don't know for sure, but I also think they don't have any way of compensating for high ambient temperatures.


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## medic417 (Aug 24, 2010)

Seaglass said:


> As I mentioned earlier, they don't really work for firefighting. They only filter the ambient air before delivering it, which can expose the user to anything that filter isn't designed for. There's no filter that works for everything--you pick different ones based on what you'll encounter, which doesn't work in an environment where you don't know the hazard. I don't know for sure, but I also think they don't have any way of compensating for high ambient temperatures.



He wants to be a medical professional not a fire fighter.  

In all honesty on the ambulance there is very little chance that you will face enough exposure that masking the patient with either a n95 or a non rebreather, using the ambulance exhaust system, and perhaps a standard surgical mask, would not be enough protection.  Heck open the windows so you have constant supply of fresh air.


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## MylesC (Aug 25, 2010)

Honestly if this is truely what you want to do and your heart is completely for being i this field... stick with it. If theres a will theres a way.
I see too many people that dont take their jobs seriously. Every patient is someones mom, dad, sister, brother, cousin, ect. If you think you can have a positive impact on someones life just keep asking questions and keep being motivated.
Good luck to you brother


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## LawKev (Aug 29, 2010)

LucidResq said:


> I find it sad that people who, as part of their chosen profession, are expected to interact with and show basic respect for people of extremely diverse cultures, religions, backgrounds, and socioeconomic status are being so, well, disrespectful.
> 
> You may take issue with Islamic tenets, but who cares? Don't convert. About "religions that tell you what you can look like"...
> 
> ...



I met one of them.


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## LawKev (Aug 29, 2010)

I tried to edit the first post and lost the page.



LucidResq said:


> Here is an interesting case regarding two Islamic Newark police officers who refused to shave their beards (Federal court ruled in their favor).



Mustafa Shakoor is one of these two officers. Some brothers consider him to be a pioneer because of this case. I used to see him at the Mosque often and sometimes in uniform. I remmember praying next to him on an occasion. I don't know him personally. I posted an interview of him earlier in the thread: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxNKVKc5F0s. His situation was not a saftey issue. They said that he and the the other officer were was breaking the spirit of decorum. 

Seaglass's post (#56) was on the money.


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## Seaglass (Aug 29, 2010)

medic417 said:


> He wants to be a medical professional not a fire fighter.



If that's the case, then he should be fine anywhere but an FD. Even in FDs that allow single-role providers, it's often practically impossible to climb the career ladder without also going through fire school at some point. 

Third services or even hospital tech jobs are probably the best bet, but I'm not familiar enough with that area to suggest any.


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## LawKev (Aug 29, 2010)

Well, I'll just try to volunteer and we'll see from there. Like I said, I'm not that desperate. I have a job.


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## Seaglass (Aug 29, 2010)

LawKev said:


> Well, I'll just try to volunteer and we'll see from there. Like I said, I'm not that desperate. I have a job.



That's a good thing--there are way too many EMTs out there for anyone to be sure of finding employment, these days. Volunteering's always a good way to gain experience, anyways. If you find the right department, it can also provide some good networking. 

By the way, if you're looking to make EMS your career, I'd recommend looking at nursing school, too. You can challenge and become a medic afterwards, and have a lot more career flexibility and earning potential without being bound to FD-based EMS. 

Regardless of what you decide, good luck!


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## LawKev (Aug 29, 2010)

Yeah, but at this point I am seriously considering letting the license go. I'm grown man with kids. I don't have time to play games. There are plenty of beard friendly professions out there and I have already began looking. I may volunteer if the beard is not an issue and If so then I have been practicing Islam for 16 years i.e. since before 9/11 and the current state of affairs. I won't break that easy God willing.

Thanks


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## nomofica (Aug 29, 2010)

Not sure if this has been said previously although I'm sure you're well aware of your religious beliefs and what can and cannot be done within said religion, however I do know many muslims who do not don the facial hair that is so desired within their religion. May of said muslims I know do wish they could allow their beards to grow but made the decision to shave to keep their jobs. Most, if not all, are happy with that decision. Even I like to rock out the chin strap (it makes me look older, I don't get ID'd as much). However I believe my life is more important than facial hair and off it goes if I'm working. As a firefighter and as an Emergency Medical Responder (Canadian equivalent to EMT-B ), that seal that has to be established with SCBA and/or other respirators is imperative. There's no use wearing said devices if there is no patented seal.

Not to drag this on any longer than it has to, I'll conclude with a reiteration that the seal is very, very important. If you feel the facial hair is more important than your job, by all means leave that job and look for something else. If you can live without the beard like many other muslims can, I do suggest making good friends with a shaver. Ultimately the choice is yours. Do what *you* feel is right.


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## LawKev (Sep 3, 2010)

Seaglass said:


> That's a good thing--there are way too many EMTs out there for anyone to be sure of finding employment, these days. Volunteering's always a good way to gain experience, anyways. If you find the right department, it can also provide some good networking.
> 
> By the way, if you're looking to make EMS your career, I'd recommend looking at nursing school, too. You can challenge and become a medic afterwards, and have a lot more career flexibility and earning potential without being bound to FD-based EMS.
> 
> Regardless of what you decide, good luck!




Thanks


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