# Minor issue



## MidwestEMT (Oct 25, 2012)

Scenario: You are dispatched to a call from bystander for an unresponsive male in car, approx. early 20's, in college parking lot. When you arrive on scene, you find a 17yom asleep in his car. The lady who called apparently didn't try too hard to wake him up, but you are able to wake him up and talk to him. He appears completely alert , and tells you he was just taking a nap in his car between classes.

What do you do now?

Although there is absolutely NO medical emergency, you have already made pt contact, and he is a minor, therefore he cannot refuse treatment. 

Opinions?


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## JPINFV (Oct 25, 2012)

What's the definition of a patient in your system? This smells a lot like a "no patient found" situation.

Also, according to the system I worked the most in, this would be covered by the "transport of minors" policy.



> C. Transport to a Paramedic Receiving Center (PRC)
> 1. A minor child who needs emergency evaluation and possibly treatment without parents or legal
> guardian on-scene, shall be transported to the nearest or most appropriate PRC or specialty care
> hospital under base hospital direction.
> ...


http://www.ochealthinfo.com/docs/medical/ems/P&P/330.20.pdf


Orange County, CA... terrible treatment protocols, great system policies.


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## Medic Tim (Oct 25, 2012)

In my opinion this was not a pt contact. A third party called because they thought there might be an emergency. Once there you found out there was not. Why would you have someone sign a refusal if they were never a pt to begin with.


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## MidwestEMT (Oct 25, 2012)

I didn't think it would be a 'no pt found' due to the fact that you made contact with the individual in question. I guess it makes sense though, because you found a person, not a patient.


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## DesertMedic66 (Oct 25, 2012)

The male is not a patient. It would be "no patient" or "no medical aid needed". In my narrative the male would be referred to as a subject and not a patient.


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## DrankTheKoolaid (Oct 25, 2012)

A simple call unfounded with no medical need chart would suffice


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## MidwestEMT (Oct 25, 2012)

JPINFV, that clears it up. Thanks for the help guys!


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## DrParasite (Oct 25, 2012)

bobschlosser94 said:


> Although there is absolutely NO medical emergency, you have already made pt contact, and he is a minor, therefore he cannot refuse treatment.


quite simply, if he has no complaint, you don't see any obvious injuries, than he really isn't a patient.  if anything, it's a matter for the police to handle, more often than not, it's a no patient call.


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## TxMedic512 (Oct 26, 2012)

Not a patient in my neck o the woods


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## Medic Tim (Oct 26, 2012)

TxMedic512 said:


> Not a patient in my neck o the woods



Care to elaborate...


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## abckidsmom (Oct 26, 2012)

TxMedic512 said:


> Not a patient in my neck o the woods



I will elaborate.  A person with no medical problem, of whom you have no suspicion of altered mental status, intoxication, and/or actual issues is not a patient.  This is a person.  This person did not call for help, and does not need help.  

And in VA, the age of consent is 14, so that side track is a non-issue.


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## Veneficus (Oct 26, 2012)

I know this may come as a shock to some people...

Every person you talk to is not your patient. They may not even be a patient. 

I talk to people all day long. I ask the baristas how they are doing/feeling, that does not make them my patient, even when they tell me they feel sick.

I talk to my coworkers, sometimes they look troubled and tell me, but that does not make them my patient. 

A patient has a formal relationship with a healthcare provider where the patient seeks, or would reasonably want (in the case of altered mentation) medical/nursing care.

Simply waking somebody up and asking them if they are ok does not constitute a provider/patient relationship. Even if you were called by a third party who suspected he was dead.

Where the lines really become blurred is when a friend/family asks you for some help either by knowledge, procedure, or prescription.


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## Medic Tim (Oct 26, 2012)

abckidsmom said:


> I will elaborate.  A person with no medical problem, of whom you have no suspicion of altered mental status, intoxication, and/or actual issues is not a patient.  This is a person.  This person did not call for help, and does not need help.
> 
> And in VA, the age of consent is 14, so that side track is a non-issue.



I wasn't sure if he was responding to our comments or the op. I agree. This person is not a pt.


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## Handsome Robb (Oct 26, 2012)

Sounds like a run with the disposition of "Unable To Locate". 

It's going to depend entirely on the situation at hand though. If you really want to make life difficult for yourself you can go through the "Refusal of Medical Assistance" pathway but in my system that's going to mean calling Mom/Dad/Legal Guardian and getting verbal consent to allow this poor young gentleman to refuse assessment and transport and go back to his nap before his next class. 

My agency is a stickler for these though, apparently they got burned a few years back by a "No Medical" call that ended in an in custody death less than an hour later. 

Age of consent in NV is 18.


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## mycrofft (Oct 26, 2012)

bobschlosser94 said:


> Scenario: You are dispatched to a call from bystander for an unresponsive male in car, approx. early 20's, in college parking lot. When you arrive on scene, you find a 17yom asleep in his car. The lady who called apparently didn't try too hard to wake him up, but you are able to wake him up and talk to him. He appears completely alert , and tells you he was just taking a nap in his car between classes.
> 
> What do you do now?
> 
> ...












"Wakey-wakey!"


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## mycrofft (Oct 27, 2012)

Seriously, though, waking someone up and talking to them does not create a patient/practitioner relationship, any more than shaking hands with your doorman does.

Also, check your local regs and laws about teenagers not having the right to refuse treatment. Right to refuse a physical contact does not equal age of consent. Ask any child molester.

I'm glad you didn't play the "have to find the parents first" card!


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## phildo (Oct 27, 2012)

Most likely a no patient here, depending on who is supervising.  If I get a refusal or not, I instruct the individual to 'Avoid sleeping in public view.'


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## chillybreeze (Oct 27, 2012)

I would go with the no pt found also!!


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