# medical assistant degree higher than medic?



## Veneficus (Aug 2, 2010)

http://education.yahoo.net/articles/most_valuable_degrees.htm?kid=16K8L


"2nd Place: Associate's Degree in Medical Assisting
The timing for earning an associate's degree in medical assisting couldn't be better. The suddenly red-hot career was highlighted in Laurence Shatkin's book Best Jobs for the 21st Century and was also named by Forbes as one of the fastest growing jobs for women in 2010.

Time to completion: 18 months to 2 years 
Average salary: $28,650
Potential salary: $39,970

Winning factor: Medical assisting opportunities are expected to grow an amazing 34 percent between 2008 and 2018, according to the U.S. Department of Labor."


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## firecoins (Aug 2, 2010)

in what way is this a higher position?  Simply because they have an associate's degree?  I don't think a "medical assistant" is anyone that can provide equal or higher care for a patient so the answer i no.  If I can't leave a patient with them, they are just another medical office worker who takes a BP.  Is there a certification that they hold or is it just a degree?  
I have B.A. in economics. I have more education than the medical assistant.  Does my econ degree may me a higher levelof care?  Nope


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## medic417 (Aug 2, 2010)

If they are higher why are they paid less?


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## firecoins (Aug 2, 2010)

what is their scope of practise? VItal Signs?


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## MDA (Aug 2, 2010)

firecoins said:


> what is their scope of practise? VItal Signs?



And which direction to wipe a patient correctly.


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## medicRob (Aug 2, 2010)

firecoins said:


> what is their scope of practise? VItal Signs?



Pretty much, Yes.  When I first read this, I assumed you were confusing MA's for PA's, but then I realized who the OP was and checked the link. Why on Earth would someone go for an associates of medical assisting as opposed to nursing? What exactly does the curriculum focus on? Anyone? Why is BSN Nursing #5? Wow.


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## EMTtoBE (Aug 2, 2010)

In no way is MA even close to the same lol...and I agree what the point of getting an associates


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## LucidResq (Aug 2, 2010)

MDA said:


> And which direction to wipe a patient correctly.



Mmm this isn't really true... most medical assistants work in physician's offices, not acute or long term care. 

Yes, they take vitals, they can also phleb and administer medications. A lot of their scope will depend on what kind of office they work in, what the physician is comfortable delegating, and what if any additional training they've had. I've seen some just do front desk kinda stuff.


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## Aidey (Aug 2, 2010)

I worked as an MA for awhile, and I'm not quite sure I understand 'higher' than a medic. I'm not a MA, but you don't necessarily have to be one to work as one if you know the skills they are trained in. 

I would estimate only 1/2 of their education is directly about patient care. They also have training in coding, documentation, patient education and office work. They will check in patients before their appointments, reconcile med and allergy lists, list chief complaint/symptoms. As far as medical stuff, they generally do basic vitals (pulse, BP, resp rate, height, weight, Snellen eye chart. The usually physical stuff), administer doctor ordered meds, including shots and TB tests. Phlebotomy is hit or miss, urinalysis for drugs or infection. Sometimes swabs for strep. 

They also can assist in pretty much anything the doctor directs them to under the doctor's supervision, like cleaning/dressing wounds, removing stitches, changing dressings on wounds already evaluated by the doc, etc.

Edit: I forgot, they also do some other assessment tests, like peak flow, EKG, and sometimes x-rays.


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## alphatrauma (Aug 2, 2010)

MDA said:


> And which direction to wipe a patient correctly.



Someone needs to educate themselves :glare:


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## MusicMedic (Aug 3, 2010)

I believe its like comparing Apples and Oranges...

as Aidey said in his post, they also tend to do alot of Clerical Stuff as well as Patient care (Front desk paperwork, Picking up the phone, charting... etc). and MA's tend to work in Doctors offices, Clinics etc... 

an Associates degree in something doesnt always mean they have more education in the Core classes, it just means they just took their general ed classes (Math, Science,Electives,English) 

I can get an Associates in Paramedicine, but does that mean im more Certified than a Paramedic who has their Certification??


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## medicRob (Aug 3, 2010)

MusicMedic said:


> I can get an Associates in Paramedicine, but does that mean im more Certified than a Paramedic who has their Certification??



No. However, an associates of Paramedicine program usually prepares you for leadership in EMS or becoming an instructor. I can see absolutely no use for an associates as a medical assistant.


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## Shishkabob (Aug 3, 2010)

Well... in Texas, an AAS in EMS makes you a Licensed Paramedic as opposed to a Certified Paramedic.


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## CAOX3 (Aug 3, 2010)

MusicMedic said:


> I can get an Associates in Paramedicine, but does that mean im more Certified than a Paramedic who has their Certification??



It means your educated vs trained.


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## Shishkabob (Aug 3, 2010)

CAOX3 said:


> It means your educated vs trained.



Bull.


You're telling me I'm not educated as a Paramedic just because I don't posses an AAS in EMS?


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## medicRob (Aug 3, 2010)

CAOX3 said:


> It means your educated vs trained.



That all depends on the program's original curriculum. For instance, I used my undergraduate nursing curriculum for mine, plus a couple EMS management courses. Some of the credits that I transferred over for my AAS included:

Anatomy & Physiology I and II
English Comp 1 and 2
American Literature
General & Abnormal Psychology
Intro to Pathophysiology
General Microbiology
General Chemistry I and II
Fundamentals of Professional Communication
Probability & Statistics
College Algebra
Music Appreciation (State requirement for associates)




As far as skills go, degree medics and certificate medics are equal. You can't base judgements of a profession on the merit of degrees and titles alone. For instance, I can think of many certificate paramedics that can blow a degree medic out of the water, just as I can think of 
degree medics that can blow certificate medics out of the water. A piece of paper doesn't make you more or less competent. These courses just allow you to think about your interventions a bit more in depth than you were taught in your paramedic certificate program. 


---
I would consider my program of study to be proficient. However, someone else may not. As for the educated versus trained debate. There are two kinds of providers:

1. The provider who follows protocols exactly as written in every situation.

2. The provider who understands the physiology behind the intervention he/she performs allowing them to adjust the treatment as necessary to set about a better patient outcome. 


I aspire to be the second type, I hope I can look back in 20 years and know that I have achieved my goal and have become a truly effective provider.


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## CAOX3 (Aug 3, 2010)

Linuss said:


> Bull.
> 
> 
> You're telling me I'm not educated as a Paramedic just because I don't posses an AAS in EMS?



I dont know, you tell me.

There is a big difference between education and training in my opinion.

Mainly the method in which the information is delivered.


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## Veneficus (Aug 3, 2010)

I posted this article because I found it very strange it was listed as a top 5 career pic.

When you look at the amount of EMT programs that offer an associates it is rather small in my experience compared to the "certificate programs."

Still:

I have noticed an increasing amount of MAs in the hospital, and even if their education (associate levels ones) gives them insight into billing practices and the like which they might actually participate in unlike somebody who recieves a AAS in EMS management, who will probably not be hired right into management, it would seem to put the ma into a position of responsibility. (title or not, making sure we all get paid is important to me)

Looking at the total scope, as well as the diversity of employment, and not a bad salary for a 2 year degree, what I meant by "higher" was a more rounded education giving them greater marketability. 

I would wager that there are more hospitals than EMS jobs, probably even more than IFT jobs. Would people looking to break into healthcare be better served by being an MA?

I could see where they can boast more patient contact than IFT companies, and even 911 units.

just food for thought.


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## Sassafras (Aug 3, 2010)

I wonder if my music major counts as music appreciation.  I never did take a music apprec class, but theory X4, music history X2, composition and arranging, voice, piano, conducting, practicum and all that other music related stuff should show I have an appreciation LOL.


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## Veneficus (Aug 3, 2010)

medicRob said:


> Pretty much, Yes.  When I first read this, I assumed you were confusing MA's for PA's, but then I realized who the OP was and checked the link. Why on Earth would someone go for an associates of medical assisting as opposed to nursing? What exactly does the curriculum focus on? Anyone? Why is BSN Nursing #5? Wow.



I think it was calculated the salry vs. time in school, and the potential debt incurred.

I know a lot of ADNs (RN) who make comparable wages to BSNs, that is why it might have moved down the list a little.

Just my speculation though.


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## jjesusfreak01 (Aug 3, 2010)

Linuss said:


> Well... in Texas, an AAS in EMS makes you a Licensed Paramedic as opposed to a Certified Paramedic.



Well, they really just want you to have a degree. Bachelors in sciences works too.


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## LucidResq (Aug 3, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> I think it was calculated the salry vs. time in school, and the potential debt incurred.
> 
> I know a lot of ADNs (RN) who make comparable wages to BSNs, that is why it might have moved down the list a little.
> 
> Just my speculation though.



Not to mention how much easier it is to get in to an MA program vs. a BSN, and I'm willing to wager easier for a new grad to get a job.


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## medicRob (Aug 3, 2010)

LucidResq said:


> Not to mention how much easier it is to get in to an MA program vs. a BSN, and I'm willing to wager easier for a new grad to get a job.



My school of nursing (BSN program) had a 100% hire rate right out of school. I have never known of a BSN having a problem getting hired unless the individual was less than reputable. One consideration with the associates of medical assisting is financial aid. The department of education will not offer PELL for Non-degree programs. They might have done this so they could receive financial aid in this program. 

I remember raking and scraping to come up with the $2,000 for my EMT-IV course. Those were the worst 9 months ever! I stayed broke, ate ramen noodles and Spaghetti O's. Had that program been a degree program, not only would we have received a more rounded curriculum, but financial aid would've paid for it.

However, there is one thing to take into consideration. Financial aid only pays for 1 degree. Once you have earned your first degree, you can no longer get
federal pell. I don't even think you can get Perkins or Direct Loan. I am going to get flamed for this next part, but worse things have happened.

I think we should incorporate into 1 degree program EMT-Basic (IV here in TN, advanced as of Fall 11) and Paramedic courses. Don't tell me this is a bad idea, because people go into ADN school knowing absolutely nothing about medicine and become competent providers in a period of 3 years (1 yr pre-nursing, 2 yr nursing).. The same is true of BSN programs. 

Why not create a bachelors degree paramedic program that allows you to stop after basic or go on. If you want to stop at EMT-Basic then you can 
file an intent to graduate and leave the college with an associates of applied science, EMT-B or Allied Health. If you decide to go on, and pursue paramedic, at the end of the course and medical director's summative review, you can file intent to graduate with a Bachelor of Science, Paramedicine. 

Many EMT's enter a paramedic program right after EMT school and most that I know of have done great. Sure they don't have a lot of patient care experience, but they also haven't had time to pick up bad habits or to get burnt out.


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## Shishkabob (Aug 3, 2010)

jjesusfreak01 said:


> Well, they really just want you to have a degree. Bachelors in sciences works too.



Actually, Bachelors in ANY area will work.


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## Sassafras (Aug 3, 2010)

I don't recall if it was the Perkins loan or a different loan but having a previous degree did not exclude me from obtaining subsidized student loans for my second degree.


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## medicRob (Aug 3, 2010)

Sassafras said:


> I don't recall if it was the Perkins loan or a different loan but having a previous degree did not exclude me from obtaining subsidized student loans for my second degree.



Ah, ok. So it is just PELL then. Good to know.


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## LucidResq (Aug 4, 2010)

medicRob said:


> My school of nursing (BSN program) had a 100% hire rate right out of school. I have never known of a BSN having a problem getting hired unless the individual was less than reputable.



Job market tightens for nursing graduates

I had a paramedic friend who had worked as an ED tech for years... had a great track record... went to a good school... got her BSN and had trouble getting an RN job at the very hospital she had been working at. She did get one eventually, but it took months.

I've heard of several other new grads running in to stiff competition for jobs... interestingly enough one story was from a medical assistant who was seeing me at the doctor's office... he and his wife, a new BSN, had recently moved from the South. He instantly found employment but she struggled for months to get a job. 

I'm sure some areas are better than others but it's still something I've heard a lot about.


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## DrankTheKoolaid (Aug 4, 2010)

medicRob said:


> My school of nursing (BSN program) had a 100% hire rate right out of school. I have never known of a BSN having a problem getting hired unless the individual was less than reputable. One consideration with the associates of medical assisting is financial aid. The department of education will not offer PELL for Non-degree programs. They might have done this so they could receive financial aid in this program.
> 
> I remember raking and scraping to come up with the $2,000 for my EMT-IV course. Those were the worst 9 months ever! I stayed broke, ate ramen noodles and Spaghetti O's. Had that program been a degree program, not only would we have received a more rounded curriculum, but financial aid would've paid for it.
> 
> ...





Sorry seriously had to laugh at that statement.  Worse thing is it was out loud and my partner thinks I am nut at the station.


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## medicRob (Aug 4, 2010)

Corky said:


> Sorry seriously had to laugh at that statement.  Worse thing is it was out loud and my partner thinks I am nut at the station.



Ok, let me rephrase: The majority of ADNs IN MY AREA come out competent. lol. I know, I know.. We've all been to aspiration manor for a transport at some time or another to see a nurse yelling, HE IS CODING!! Do Something, Do Something! because his 02 sats are not 99 on room air, but you must admit there are some damn good nurses out there as well.


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## smurfe (Aug 4, 2010)

MDA said:


> And which direction to wipe a patient correctly.



I sometimes get an email from this forum asking why I haven't visited in a year so I come back to check it out. I then see post like this and it reminds me why I don't visit. It is a mentality like this that does it for me. For those that wonder why EMS gets treated like it does. Here's you sign.


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## smurfe (Aug 4, 2010)

Linuss said:


> Well... in Texas, an AAS in EMS makes you a Licensed Paramedic as opposed to a Certified Paramedic.



I am still trying to figure out the difference except the title. I am a Certified Texas Paramedic as well. I could be Licensed as I qualify with my BS degree but have not found a reason to spend the extra cash for anything other than the title. It don't seem to get you any extra pay. I just did my re-cert last weekend and was going to go Licensed but decided to save a few bucks and just stay Certified.


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## medicRob (Aug 4, 2010)

Well, I went the degree path for two reasons. 

1. I am pursuing prehospital research and like the way an AAS looks on my official manuscripts along with my BSN.

2. I want to become an instructor/coordinator in the future.


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## firecoins (Aug 4, 2010)

smurfe said:


> I am still trying to figure out the difference except the title. I am a Certified Texas Paramedic as well. I could be Licensed as I qualify with my BS degree but have not found a reason to spend the extra cash for anything other than the title. It don't seem to get you any extra pay. I just did my re-cert last weekend and was going to go Licensed but decided to save a few bucks and just stay Certified.



The difference is the licensed medic gets to say his paper is bigger than yours.


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## medicRob (Aug 4, 2010)

Also, don't think we are the only profession to argue like this.

I just read the following post from a nursing forum I frequent and got a good chuckle because it reminded me of what we do in EMS.

"It amazes me that people are not happy with just being refered to as an RN. Why all the alphabet soup ? When I got my certifications, I did it to increase my knowledge, not to impress anyone. Nursing will never become a true profession until we as a group unite, instead of insisting that we must show one is better than another."


I love the, "Nursing will never become a true profession" part.


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## jjesusfreak01 (Aug 4, 2010)

It's kind of a kick in the balls to EMS when they say "nursing isn't a true profession". What hope is there for EMS if the long established profession of nursing isn't a profession at all.


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## medicRob (Aug 4, 2010)

jjesusfreak01 said:


> It's kind of a kick in the balls to EMS when they say "nursing isn't a true profession". What hope is there for EMS if the long established profession of nursing isn't a profession at all.



As a nurse, I am quite confident in nursing as a profession. Some nurses do not agree with me. You are going to see arguments like this in every profession. The fact is, for EMS to be considered a profession providers are going to have to go the degree route and the powers that be are going to have to phase out certificate programs just as we phased out diploma programs in registered nursing. Moreover, we are going to have to move to the national practice model and allow for *LICENSURE*<--- I said licensure, not certification at the NATIONAL level, not the state level. The NREMT is all fine and dandy, but you can't practice with your NR certification alone.. You have to use that certification to apply for a state license. We need an EMS Model, just like nursing has, a nationally managed scope of practice that allows individual states and medical directors to limit skills as they see fit, but that requires programs to actually train students in all the skills while allowing for a Multi-state license to be issued. This would not work with our current system of (EMT-IV, EMT-CC, EMT-LMNOP).. We are going to need to move to the national standard of (EMR, EMT-B, EMT-Advanced, Paramedic) for this to occur. Until we are organized on the national level with 1 testing standard (Just as nursing has the NCLEX), we are not going to be respected as a profession.


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## Shishkabob (Aug 4, 2010)

smurfe said:


> I am still trying to figure out the difference except the title. I am a Certified Texas Paramedic as well. I could be Licensed as I qualify with my BS degree but have not found a reason to spend the extra cash for anything other than the title. It don't seem to get you any extra pay. I just did my re-cert last weekend and was going to go Licensed but decided to save a few bucks and just stay Certified.



GOLD LETTERING!!!!


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## kermit (Aug 4, 2010)

LucidResq said:


> Mmm this isn't really true... most medical assistants work in physician's offices, not acute or long term care.
> 
> Yes, they take vitals, they can also phleb and administer medications. A lot of their scope will depend on what kind of office they work in, what the physician is comfortable delegating, and what if any additional training they've had. I've seen some just do front desk kinda stuff.



I'm not even a EMT yet,I start school in a couple weeks. I do have a close friend who is a MA and she chose to do that because the blood and gore wasn't her cup of tea. She is basically a desk jockey who did work in the lab for a while. My wife's friends are all in the medical field, one is a PA,one MA and and others are RN's and LPN's. From what I hear around the dinner table, I wouldn't consider is any higher. She does get delegated certain task from the Doc but mostly a secretary.


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## firecoins (Aug 4, 2010)

medicRob said:


> I said licensure, not certification at the NATIONAL level, not the state level. .



I do not believe RN or MDs are licensed at the National level. PA are certified.


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## medicRob (Aug 4, 2010)

firecoins said:


> I do not believe RN or MDs are licensed at the National level. PA are certified.



RN License is multi-state, MD can practice in any state as well.


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## medicRob (Aug 4, 2010)

medicRob said:


> RN License is multi-state, MD can practice in any state as well.



Sorry, I couldn't edit it, and I feel that I worded the original post wrong. Here is what I meant to say:

--------------


RN License is multi-state and there is a compact state agreement, MD can practice in any state as well. I might have worded that wrong. What I mean is,an RN's skill set is the same nationally. The only thing that is different is the hospital's discretion as to whether or 
not an RN can employ a certain skill. If I want to pick up and move to Kentucky, another Compact license state, I can just fill out a form
with kentucky and my license is transferred. 

If an EMT-B comes from Florida to TN where we have EMT-IV. They would have to take a bridge course. There is no RN-IV, RN-D, etc so I would not have to bridge to anything. RN is the same across the board, it is the specialty areas that are different and those too are handled nationally.


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## JPINFV (Aug 4, 2010)

medicRob said:


> Sorry, I couldn't edit it, and I feel that I worded the original post wrong. Here is what I meant to say:
> 
> --------------
> 
> ...



So, take your NCLEX score and try applying and holding jobs with out any state licenses. Additionally, you're even admitting that the license isn't national. If it was a national licensure, why would you have out paperwork to change states?

Similarly, with physicians, just because a physician passed COMLEX and/or USMLE doesn't mean they have a national license. They still have to apply to the board of medicine for licensure in the state(s) that they want to practice in. Plenty of medical and health care professions have national standards and national licensing exams. None have a national license.


Additionally, the difference between licensure and certification is, at best, a red herring of an argument. There's a reason that the law governing physicians in California contains a clause along the lines of 'for the purpose of this section, certification and license is the same thing.' The politicians who write the law doesn't know what the difference is.


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## Veneficus (Aug 4, 2010)

kermit said:


> I'm not even a EMT yet,I start school in a couple weeks. I do have a close friend who is a MA and she chose to do that because the blood and gore wasn't her cup of tea. She is basically a desk jockey who did work in the lab for a while. My wife's friends are all in the medical field, one is a PA,one MA and and others are RN's and LPN's. From what I hear around the dinner table, I wouldn't consider is any higher. She does get delegated certain task from the Doc but mostly a secretary.



if blood and gore is your cup of tea, you won't find a whole lot of it in EMS. Don't have official stats, but even at very busy places it is less than 10% of the job I wager.


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## Sandog (Aug 4, 2010)

Veneficus said:


> if blood and gore is your cup of tea, you won't find a whole lot of it in EMS. Don't have official stats, but even at very busy places it is less than 10% of the job I wager.



Unless you transport to USC Medical Center's Emergency Room in Los Angeles, with 500 PT a day ranging from the sniffles to shootings.

http://mydd.com/users/ragekage/posts/the-busiest-emergency-room-in-america


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## Veneficus (Aug 4, 2010)

Sandog said:


> Unless you transport to USC Medical Center's Emergency Room in Los Angeles, with 500 PT a day ranging from the sniffles to shootings.
> 
> http://mydd.com/users/ragekage/posts/the-busiest-emergency-room-in-america



I caution you to measure based on gross volume. I spent a few years in one that saw by number 300 patients a day. But this is a slightly disproportionate number and difficult to properly quantify. Usually the day shift sees more patients, and the night shift sees higher acuity. The distribution of trauma resources also counts. A center serving a population of 1 million is going to have a higher % of "interesting cases" that a center that is in relatively close proximity to another comparable center. 

A better measure of blood and gore is the number of surgical trauma operations or trauma admissions to the SICU. 

Further breaking that number down, since most trauma is actually ortho in nature, it often becomes a requirement to describe penetrating vs blunt trauma admissions.

Trauma centers in the US have been seeing a considerable decline in surgical trauma. (which usually has the highest rates of "gore factor.") There are also several level II centers in the country that see a higher percentage of surgical and penetrating trauma then some level I centers. 

Furthermore, after a while, what a provider considers "gory" or even "interesting" is a steadily increasing bar.

Thanks for the link though, I am quite familiar with RAM, but I am guessing their "cool blood and guts" % was actually rather low considering as I understand most of their work is dental.


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## Sandog (Aug 4, 2010)

My point was that the amount of trauma one may experience depends on location. I live in downtown San Diego where beatings, shootings and general mayhem are common. I have grown accustomed to the daily and nightly sounds of sirens from ambu and police.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Aug 6, 2010)

I was hired as a medical assistant when I was an EMT-B with no other training or education. A lot of medical assistants receive on the job training and mainly room patients and take vital signs. Comparing it to a Paramedic is not even relevant. I would say its more a long the lines of a CNA or maybe an EMT-B.


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## Akulahawk (Aug 6, 2010)

firecoins said:


> I do not believe RN or MDs are licensed at the National level. PA are certified.


Athletic Trainers, Physical Therapists, Occupational Therapists, Pharmacists, Firefighters, Police Officers, Nurses, Physicians... none have a NATIONAL LICENSE to do what they do. There may be national certifying bodies, but recognition of that certification via some kind of licensing body is left to the individual states.


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## firecoins (Aug 6, 2010)

Akulahawk said:


> Athletic Trainers, Physical Therapists, Occupational Therapists, Pharmacists, Firefighters, Police Officers, Nurses, Physicians... none have a NATIONAL LICENSE to do what they do. There may be national certifying bodies, but recognition of that certification via some kind of licensing body is left to the individual states.



which is what I was saying. Thank you.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Aug 6, 2010)

medical assistants are not even required to be certified by anybody in Oregon. They just work under the doctors licence and many complete on the job training, some are old army medics or techs who no longer hold any civilian cert, or random low level health care certified like CNA or EMT-B. few are certified and even fewer have the associates ( which is from a bogus school most times and not even close to the Paramedic AAS or RN AAS)


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