# Were your EMT-B class tests Top Secret?



## Aerin-Sol (Oct 17, 2009)

Apparently mine are. We are required to turn in the tests and answer sheets after we review the answers and we aren't allowed to take any notes on the material whatsoever. This is extremely annoying to me as I am a visual learner and going over the questions I missed verbally does nothing for me. The tests are cumulative and I am missing some of the same questions over and over because after I get home I can't remember exactly what I missed.


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## DV_EMT (Oct 17, 2009)

My testes were top secret as well... thought there were different test(s) in the same room, the questions were jumbled... I wonder if some are from the NREMT? questions they wont ever use again?


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## JPINFV (Oct 17, 2009)

I don't remember for my EMT class. At my grad school, one of the major fund raisers for the student government was selling test packets of old tests. They weren't all of the tests, but we also got a copy of our tests and our scantron score report (gave us the answers, what we answered if we answered wrong, average score, and a few other things). 

On the other hand, at my current school the exams are posted in the Office of Medical Education for review until the challenge period passes. We're only allowed to take the minimal amount of notes needed to forumlate a challenge though.


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## DV_EMT (Oct 17, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> I don't remember for my EMT class. At my grad school, one of the major fund raisers for the student government was selling test packets of old tests. They weren't all of the tests, but we also got a copy of our tests and our scantron score report (gave us the answers, what we answered if we answered wrong, average score, and a few other things).



Ya know... thats a great idea! I may have to market that if I ever teach when I get old.


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## rescue99 (Oct 17, 2009)

Aerin-Sol said:


> Apparently mine are. We are required to turn in the tests and answer sheets after we review the answers and we aren't allowed to take any notes on the material whatsoever. This is extremely annoying to me as I am a visual learner and going over the questions I missed verbally does nothing for me. The tests are cumulative and I am missing some of the same questions over and over because after I get home I can't remember exactly what I missed.



It is probably because the education department utilizes the same tests. If a test generator was used, there are only so many questions in the bank. If everyone got to see the tests afterward, soon there would be no reason to give the exam. You would all know the questions and answers! 

Exams take many hours (each) to write even with the aid of a test generator. It isn't quite as simple as one would think. Each question is weighed and measured for difficulty and must be referenced to both the material being taught and with the DOT objectives. Blue printing takes a long time thus, I might hand out a take home quiz once in a while but, not exams. No one sees those after taking the exam. They take too long to write. As it is, a well written exam is only good for a year or so before it needs to be completely redone.


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## Aerin-Sol (Oct 17, 2009)

Let me add that my program is not associated with a school. It is an independent company that does EMT-B and CPR certifications.


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## Shishkabob (Oct 17, 2009)

My EMT test were "top secret".

My medic school test, at a different school, still are "top secret".


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## silver (Oct 17, 2009)

Additionally you don't want to give other students an advantage do you?
Some students my have friends or siblings that give them all the tests. Others are going in blind.


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## firecoins (Oct 17, 2009)

Aerin-Sol said:


> Apparently mine are. We are required to turn in the tests and answer sheets after we review the answers and we aren't allowed to take any notes on the material whatsoever. This is extremely annoying to me as I am a visual learner and going over the questions I missed verbally does nothing for me. The tests are cumulative and I am missing some of the same questions over and over because after I get home I can't remember exactly what I missed.



I can neither confirm nor deny the existance on an EMT-B Test.


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## John E (Oct 18, 2009)

*These are not...*

the EMT test answers that you are looking for.

Move along...

John E


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## mycrofft (Oct 19, 2009)

*After leaving High School...*

I cannot remember ever getting to keep a test, the answers, or take notes during a test.

Of course those stone tablets would give you a hernia.


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## Akulahawk (Oct 19, 2009)

mycrofft said:


> I cannot remember ever getting to keep a test, the answers, or take notes during a test.
> 
> Of course those stone tablets would give you a hernia.


You got stone tablets? Lucky!!!!

I don't recall ever being able to keep the test, answers, or take notes... in most of my classes... EVER. Occasionally, an exam, yes... but for MOST classes... Definite NOT.


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## EDAC (Oct 19, 2009)

Ours were available to any student at anytime after each class. The majority of the time it was to see what you had missed and get clarification on a question/answer. We were also able to challenge any question/answer we gave on any exam and if our case was presented well enough the intructor would give us credit for the question.

We were told at the beginning of the course that the final exam would be random questions from all the exams given throughout the course. :sad:Sadly many copied the questions and answers down to  get an "edge" on the final. Surprise! none of the questions from any of our exams were on the final, so those who cheated wasted alot of time trying to get "ahead".


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## Meursault (Oct 19, 2009)

Just be happy they're not taking the AAMC's route and selling the tests at $35 each.

OP, you can't remember what you missed? I've always found that the questions that I have trouble with haunt me until grades come out. Did you ask your instructor why the policy's there? It seems a bit harsh to forbid note-taking during review.

Specific questions aren't as important as content areas. The scope of knowledge for an EMT-B exam is small enough that you can reasonably know everything. Try writing down what kind of questions (e.g. airway, pharmacology, scenario) you're having trouble with and reviewing practice questions in your text or online. Obviously, ask first.




EDAC said:


> We were told at the beginning of the course that the final exam would be random questions from all the exams given throughout the course. :sad:Sadly many copied the questions and answers down to  get an "edge" on the final. Surprise! none of the questions from any of our exams were on the final, so those who cheated wasted alot of time trying to get "ahead".



I like punishing the overdedicated as much as the next man, but I'm not sure I approve of lying to one's students about it.


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## Aerin-Sol (Oct 19, 2009)

MrConspiracy said:


> OP, you can't remember what you missed? I've always found that the questions that I have trouble with haunt me until grades come out. Did you ask your instructor why the policy's there? It seems a bit harsh to forbid note-taking during review.



They said it is because they don't want any future students/other companies to have access to them.



> Specific questions aren't as important as content areas. The scope of knowledge for an EMT-B exam is small enough that you can reasonably know everything. Try writing down what kind of questions (e.g. airway, pharmacology, scenario) you're having trouble with and reviewing practice questions in your text or online. Obviously, ask first.



That's what I want to do, but it is not allowed because they think anyone taking any notes whatsoever is writing down their precious questions. Oh and our EMT book is over 1,000 pages. 

It seems that this is kind of common practice but it is such a contrast from college. I've never had a professor not allow us to keep our tests. In my view, if I am paying for it and I want to cheat and memorize a bunch of the inclass questions, so what? I'm just shooting myself in the foot because it's not going to help me on the registry exams anyway.


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## akflightmedic (Oct 19, 2009)

Aerin-Sol said:


> They said it is because they don't want any future students/other companies to have access to them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How about the rest of us in the PROFESSION who want to increase or maintain high standards??

If by chance you memorize just enough to skate by...why would I want you out in the public representing what I do? Why would I want you certified to be in a position where you could potentially be taking care of me or my family one day??

You are paying to be educated, it sounds as if the professors are attempting that. Now I suggest you learn the material and not try to rely on graded tests for feedback. Interact with your instructor, your classmates, practice scenarios, review book questions, make up your own questions...you will quickly see where you are lacking. Of course all of that takes extra effort...


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## Aerin-Sol (Oct 19, 2009)

akflightmedic said:


> How about the rest of us in the PROFESSION who want to increase or maintain high standards??



What about every other PROFESSION that doesn't treat their classes' tests as secret documents? 



> If by chance you memorize just enough to skate by...why would I want you out in the public representing what I do? Why would I want you certified to be in a position where you could potentially be taking care of me or my family one day??





> *I'm just shooting myself in the foot because it's not going to help me on the registry exams anyway.*





> You are paying to be educated, it sounds as if the professors are attempting that.



None of our instructors are professors.



> Now I suggest you learn the material and not try to rely on graded tests for feedback. Interact with your instructor, your classmates, practice scenarios, review book questions, make up your own questions...you will quickly see where you are lacking. Of course all of that takes extra effort...



I suggest that you are being unnecessarily rude and have absolutely no knowledge of the effort I am currently putting into my class, as well as a slight deficiency in reading comprehension. Please reread the bolded quote before jumping to any more conclusions.


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## akflightmedic (Oct 19, 2009)

So we should lower ourselves and our standards because every other profession does so???

Actually we have already done that and now we are trying to rectify it...the current state of EMS education reflects the hazards of lowering standards.

Sorry, I substituted professor for instructor...another pitfall of our EMS education system is exactly that...schools not requiring the educators to be educated themselves. When I say educated I imply college degree with extra classes in adult instruction or learning/teaching modalities.

However, your instructors are doing you a favor, so kudos to them.

Paying close attention to the now bolded part (I didn't miss it the 1st go round cause I am quite adept at reading comprehension) I will say again and hint that maybe you didn't comprehend what I wrote (maybe you should re read)...if it does not matter, why are you whining?

Second, the comment I made about you "possibly skating through", was in direct response to your bold statement above. People who say it does not matter anyways and then they get a few lucky guesses on the exam are now certified to do something for which they have no real foundation upon which to build all future education...this, is scary.

As for being unnecessarily rude, may I remind you that you posted in a public forum to solicit ALL opinions both good and bad. The first time someone hears the truth or something against their line of thinking, they throw the rude card when in actuality, the post was exactly what you needed. It offers a different perspective (didn't say right, wrong, better or worse...just different) and typically once you calm down and comprehend and open your mind, you will see how a different perspective can sometimes open your eyes to things you were not aware of before, thereby causing you to change or modify your current mode of thinking.

No, I have no knowledge of your personal effort but based on what YOU wrote, we have nothing left to do but form conclusions and respond based on that. When you indicate a whining nature about not being able to see tests "that you paid for", there is nothing to infer except your anger and your desire to have things handed to you.

These conclusions are based on what you wrote, remember that.

You then sum up by saying it is not going to help you anyways, I take it a step further and extrapolate potential outcomes, demonstrating the negative aspect because I have to think worst case scenario or LCD effect.

If after reading this, you still think I am an ***...I suggest you go read some of my previous postings and consider the fact that I have much better things to do with my time than sit online and be a jerk, however I considered your situation important enough to respond to in an intelligent and clearly explained manner.


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## rforsythe (Oct 19, 2009)

EDAC said:


> Ours were available to any student at anytime after each class. The majority of the time it was to see what you had missed and get clarification on a question/answer. We were also able to challenge any question/answer we gave on any exam and if our case was presented well enough the intructor would give us credit for the question.



Yep, same here.  We reviewed each exam as a class, and discussed any question anyone wanted to.  Sometimes everyone missed a question just out of study-induced loss of intelligence, but we always turned the missed ones into a learning opportunity.  Occasionally the question just sucked (worded very poorly, answers were just wrong, etc) and of course we got those points back since you can't expect anyone to get an impossible question right.

Discussion around the free-text answers was usually good for some entertainment.  It was especially neat when someone would create an entire new medical term, and then defend whatever condition it represented at length.


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## Meursault (Oct 19, 2009)

Aerin-Sol said:


> That's what I want to do, but it is not allowed because they think anyone taking any notes whatsoever is writing down their precious questions. Oh and our EMT book is over 1,000 pages.



Pick up one of your college textbooks and compare. I'll use Janeway's Immunobiology 7th ed. for effect. It's 883 pages of about 12pt. serif type, images, and big tables. I'm not suggesting that you read the entire book. If it's anything like my EMT text, there are entire chapters you could profitably ignore. Use a bit of judgment. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





As a college student, you probably understand how to study without direct reference to the questions. As akflightmedic pointed out, if you know the material, you'll pass the tests. Learn the material.


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## Vince (Oct 20, 2009)

I'm currently in College for my EMT-B course here in Colorado springs, CO.

Our Tests are Top Secret. We get to go over our answers as a class and tell the instructor why we picked that answer. Every test (4) so far the instructor has given us between 3 to 6 answers due because in reality(out in the field) you would not do as the book answer. 

Our instructor is very kind and gives us a print out of what to study and how many questions might be on that subject on the test.


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## ChicagolandIFT (Oct 24, 2009)

Every class I have ever been to keeps tests top secrete.  I assumed this was a general rule of thumb for all of education.  It promotes studying the material, not the questions and answers.  If you are a visual learner, visualize the book you get, and remember the information in it, then you will know the answers.  If you have a legitimate learning disability, you may want to consult a specialized educator.  We had a student in my chem class who had to put a transparent sheet with a red film over the pages in order to compensate for a sequencing issue, this was allowed for his tests too (although the instructor kept the red "testing sheet" with him until the day of the test, and he turned it back in with the test).  With most EMT classes requiring less than 150 hours it would be advisable to spend a great deal of time studying outside of class as well.


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## mcgrubbs (Oct 25, 2009)

I'm in a Basic class at a community college here in southern NM.

After taking each test, we go over/discuss them.  She gives us plenty of time to discuss and ask questions about the things we messed up on.  After that, we don't see them again.  I'm fine with it.


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## thatJeffguy (Oct 25, 2009)

Aerin-Sol said:


> They said it is because they don't want any future students/other companies to have access to them.
> 
> 
> That's what I want to do, but it is not allowed because they think anyone taking any notes whatsoever is writing down their precious questions. Oh and our EMT book is over 1,000 pages.


How, exactly, can they prevent you from taking notes?  I suppose they could "fail" you from the class, but I think you'd win that one on appeal unless this was some odd mom/pop operation.  I can think of no statute that would prohibit you from so doing.  Ask the proctor to see the rule that prevents such action, if you really feel that it's hurting your ability to acquire knowledge. I'd just take some notes on my personal notepad.  It's not as if they can detain you or take your personal property from you, without committing a rather serious infraction of the law.


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## JPINFV (Oct 25, 2009)

Aerin-Sol said:


> Oh and our EMT book is over 1,000 pages.



So?


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## ChicagolandIFT (Oct 25, 2009)

Aerin-Sol said:


> Oh and our EMT book is over 1,000 pages.



It is mostly pictures and tables.  If you were to take the 11th Edition Brady and typed it out I am fairly confident it would be smaller than an elementary school text book.


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## Aerin-Sol (Oct 25, 2009)

thatJeffguy said:


> How, exactly, can they prevent you from taking notes?  I suppose they could "fail" you from the class, but I think you'd win that one on appeal unless this was some odd mom/pop operation.  I can think of no statute that would prohibit you from so doing.  Ask the proctor to see the rule that prevents such action, if you really feel that it's hurting your ability to acquire knowledge. I'd just take some notes on my personal notepad.  It's not as if they can detain you or take your personal property from you, without committing a rather serious infraction of the law.



They can kick me out of the class.




> ond, the comment I made about you "possibly skating through", was in direct response to your bold statement above. People who say it does not matter anyways and then they get a few lucky guesses on the exam are now certified to do something for which they have no real foundation upon which to build all future education...this, is scary.



National Registry is designed so a few lucky guesses will let you pass? Wow, maybe that's a problem.



> As for being unnecessarily rude, may I remind you that you posted in a public forum to solicit ALL opinions both good and bad. The first time someone hears the truth or something against their line of thinking, they throw the rude card when in actuality, the post was exactly what you needed. It offers a different perspective (didn't say right, wrong, better or worse...just different) and typically once you calm down and comprehend and open your mind, you will see how a different perspective can sometimes open your eyes to things you were not aware of before, thereby causing you to change or modify your current mode of thinking.



So implying that someone is unprofessional, not learning the class material, not interacting in class, not reviewing the book, not interacting with classmates, not exerting themself, can't comprehend the amazing words of wisdom you're writing, is whing, and is emotional is not rude? Maybe you should put forth some "extra effort" and find a dictionary.


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## rescue99 (Oct 25, 2009)

ChicagolandIFT said:


> Every class I have ever been to keeps tests top secrete.  I assumed this was a general rule of thumb for all of education.  It promotes studying the material, not the questions and answers.  If you are a visual learner, visualize the book you get, and remember the information in it, then you will know the answers.  If you have a legitimate learning disability, you may want to consult a specialized educator.  We had a student in my chem class who had to put a transparent sheet with a red film over the pages in order to compensate for a sequencing issue, this was allowed for his tests too (although the instructor kept the red "testing sheet" with him until the day of the test, and he turned it back in with the test).  With most EMT classes requiring less than 150 hours it would be advisable to spend a great deal of time studying outside of class as well.



Red, blue and grey films are good tools. Using pale blue/grey helps those with dyslexia see words with less difficulty.


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## akflightmedic (Oct 25, 2009)

Slow down on the anger and just read and digest....

I did not say the NR Exam was designed where a few lucky guesses would allow you to pass, but as with any exam on any subject, it is possible where you could pass simply by clicking the right choice with no knowledge of how or why it is the correct answer.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then...

If you inferred all of those things you listed, then youa re wrong. At no point did I say you were unprofessional nor imply it. I merely questioned whether those of us already in the profession should lower standards to accomdate those having issue with them.

The only direct comment I made about your behavior specifically was that you need to read the book, learn the material and not rely on tests as a learning tool.

The remainder of the comments were tips on how to succeed, at no point did I say you do not do these, but if you are not already then I encourage you to do so. I also said it takes extra effort to do those things...which part of that statement is inaccurate?

Yes I am sharing words of wisdom. I am not always right and I am far from perfect, but I am someone who has a lot of experience in  the field and with EMS education. Did any other posters call me out and say I was being crazy, wrong or rude? If not, then usually this is because I didn't. Only you perceived it as such...

As for the whining, yes I did ask why are you whinging based on exactly what YOU wrote. You stated it really did not matter...I posed if it does not matter, then why are you whining? Perfectly legitimate question based solely on what you shared.

Again, this misunderstanding on your behalf goes back to reading comprehension and refusal to listen to an opinion which varies from what you really wanted to hear. 

Cheers!


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## bunkie (Nov 4, 2009)

Answering the OP: Our final exam was top secret too. They wouldn't and wont let us know what we missed. Kinda bugs me, the questions were insane so I'm curious about what was right and wrong. Oh well though. But it's interesting to see our programs wasn't the only one doing that.


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## guardian528 (Nov 4, 2009)

Aerin-Sol said:


> It seems that this is kind of common practice but it is such a contrast from college. I've never had a professor not allow us to keep our tests.



really? what kind of college do you go to? profs can do whatever they want with their tests, which includes not giving them back.


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