# "Getting close to" * Teacher



## mycrofft (Apr 28, 2014)

I'm tired of female students coming to a CPR class, where presumably they know they'll be doing CPR on manikins, with very low cut tops, three inch heels, etc. (So far, no guys drooping too far or male crop tops).

Last time the two who did were rearranging their clothing to present more cleavage before we started floor exercise.

Anyone else having this problem? Or should I just sell tickets? I've asked ARC to tell students on their acceptance e-mails and letter what to wear, but they say they can't.


*"Get close to", as in "Let's get close to Charlie" was slang way back when which I heard being used by Rangers when they were going to pull a trick to get close to then mess with someone, like (Victor) Charlie. Under your skin then do as they say.


----------



## OnceAnEMT (Apr 28, 2014)

During my EMT school we all had to take a CPR course through the city agency (even though we all had cards from elsewhere in order to get in the school). It was a casual day, with different instructors. Having seen classmates in only uniform at that point, it was kind of funny to see legs. No cleavage issues. 

People will be people. In Athletic Training, it is unfortunate to see a large majority of students having flirty relationships with their athletes, male and female.


----------



## ThadeusJ (Apr 29, 2014)

Give 'em lab coats or have them do the test in a more realistic setting like outside in the rain and mud with the patient covered in blood.


----------



## Carlos Danger (Apr 29, 2014)

mycrofft said:


> I'm tired of female students coming to a CPR class, where presumably they know they'll be doing CPR on manikins, with very low cut tops, three inch heels, etc. (So far, no guys drooping too far or male crop tops).
> 
> Last time the two who did were rearranging their clothing to present more cleavage before we started floor exercise.
> 
> *Anyone else having this problem?* Or should I just sell tickets? I've asked ARC to tell students on their acceptance e-mails and letter what to wear, but they say they can't.



I'm sorry, but I don't see why you describe this as a problem.

I say that part jokingly, but part seriously. Is it really an issue?


----------



## joshrunkle35 (Apr 29, 2014)

If it's part of a school function, cover required clothing ahead of time in a syllabus. If not, list it in the course info. If it's a "show up as you are and learn CPR" type-thing, then realize that people in the world are like that, and learn to accept it as the way it is. 

I think leaving lab coats available is a nice gesture for people who are unprepared, but forcing someone to wear one because you personally find their clothing morally objectionable is very rude.


----------



## Summit (Apr 29, 2014)

OK... I've never whipped this phrase out ever before in my life:

Get with the times, old man!


----------



## NomadicMedic (Apr 29, 2014)

...and get off my lawn!


----------



## mycrofft (Apr 29, 2014)

*More on my sexist rant*



DEmedic said:


> ...and get off my lawn!



Ahahaha! I knew you'd get that in there!:rofl:

Ditto Summit.

My "sell tickets" comment was very sexist, but the phenomenon is very sexist as well. The closest I have been to a male getting there was the one who had a large photo purportedly of his naked girlfriend (back half-turned) printed on his tshirt. 

I am not allowed to tell them to somehow dress differently. I asked about some clean used formal shirts or something but was told "no". I would take it upon myself if there's a health or safety issue, but there isn't, just potential embarrassment. I just have to bear it (no grinning or the wife and daughter will tease me unmercifully) and keep my eyes UP.

It's their fashion decision, but they're going to do the whole deal like everyone else.

So, how many guys want to sign up as an instructor?


----------



## Rin (Apr 29, 2014)

mycrofft said:


> Last time the two who did were rearranging their clothing to present more cleavage before we started floor exercise.



As a female who likes to wear tank tops, what looks like boob-plumping may actually be bra-adjusting to prevent nip slips.  Also, I've taken CPR classes where the mannequins were arranged on the tables instead of the floor.


----------



## Anjel (Apr 29, 2014)

I adjust my boobs all the time at work. Just like guys adjust their balls. It's not to make them look better. Just make sure one isn't trying to roam free. Especially after doing chest compressions. 

But I do see what you are saying. Can't they just say "dress for physical activity".


----------



## UnkiEMT (Apr 29, 2014)

I've had a few women show up for classes wearing what I would consider to be inappropriate clothing, but ultimately it's their potential embarrassment, not mine, so I don't really care. I just mentally class them in the same category as patients, and thus asexual, so I don't get distracted and get on with things.

Also, with the mannequins on the table, unless you're going to have the students climb onto the table, you're not going to be able to get most people to do effective compressions. You need the leverage of height to really get that force applied.


----------



## Rin (Apr 29, 2014)

UnkiEMT said:


> Also, with the mannequins on the table, unless you're going to have the students climb onto the table, you're not going to be able to get most people to do effective compressions. You need the leverage of height to really get that force applied.



I'll second that. I think the instructor just had us go through the motions and didn't grade us on compression depth. A bit half-assed by my standards, but we still learned.


----------



## mycrofft (Apr 30, 2014)

*No tabletop manikins.*

We're told manikins on the table is a fail.

Everything else is so subjective I'm not going to make a play by play description of moving outer garments back off the shoulders like a shawl, etc.

Anyway, I'm pretty much done teaching. Like the teaching, but tired of the BS the companies come up with to try to make more money  or more tightly control what I do when my students have rescues (two I know of), pass their tests, and award me fives and sixes.

In that same vein, if a student decided to beef me for staring or declaring a costume too disruptive, I'm sure they'd toss me onto the tracks.


----------



## Rin (Apr 30, 2014)

mycrofft said:


> We're told manikins on the table is a fail.



Figures.  Are exceptions generally made for older folks etc. that can't get down on the ground?  They may be willing to bear the injury/pain in a real emergency, but there's no point on doing so for a class.

[QUOTE =mycrofft;531521]
Everything else is so subjective I'm not going to make a play by play description of moving outer garments back off the shoulders like a shawl, etc.[/QUOTE]

Loooool, lame.  I'm picturing a scene from an 80's movie now.


----------



## Handsome Robb (Apr 30, 2014)

I've done CPR classes on tables before. Wait maybe that was the CPR portion of ACLS...I can't remember. I've done CPR on a COR mannequin on a table in an alphabet supe class. 

I don't personally see the issue here. If they want to take the risk of exposing themselves and/or intentionally position their clothing in order to try and use their sexual appeal to further themselves that's on them. Doesn't affect me in any way shape or form. 

One thing I will never understand is why women wear low cut shirts and yell when they catch a guy glancing. I don't yell when girls give me elevator eyes. I know a chick who has three diamond peircings between her breasts in a line superior to inferior and she freaks out when people look at them. You put something shiny there what do you expect!?


----------



## UnkiEMT (Apr 30, 2014)

Robb said:


> One thing I will never understand is why women wear low cut shirts and yell when they catch a guy glancing. I don't yell when girls give me elevator eyes. I know a chick who has three diamond peircings between her breasts in a line superior to inferior and she freaks out when people look at them. You put something shiny there what do you expect!?



The opportunity to be morally outraged?


----------



## UnkiEMT (Apr 30, 2014)

Rin said:


> Figures.  Are exceptions generally made for older folks etc. that can't get down on the ground?  They may be willing to bear the injury/pain in a real emergency, but there's no point on doing so for a class.



Personally it hasn't come up for me. If it were a recert I'd probably let it slide, but if it was an initial cert I'd make them get down...perhaps if I had enough advanced notice I'd try to get a step stool or something so they could do it from standing with enough of a height advantage to still compress. It'd still be bad for the back, but would spare the knees.


----------



## ExpatMedic0 (Apr 30, 2014)

mycrofft said:


> I'm tired of female students coming to a CPR class, where presumably they know they'll be doing CPR on manikins, with very low cut tops, three inch heels, etc. (So far, no guys drooping too far or male crop tops).
> 
> Last time the two who did were rearranging their clothing to present more cleavage before we started floor exercise.


Let me know if you need some extra CPR instructors in your class!
I don't personally have a problem with it, but you could always ask people dress "business casual" or in comfortable clothing. I have had to attend CME classes with dress codes like these.


----------



## Rin (Apr 30, 2014)

Robb said:


> One thing I will never understand is why women wear low cut shirts and yell when they catch a guy glancing.



Because you get dressed, look at your short self in the mirror, and say, "Everything's covered, good to go."  Then you go out and you have men a foot taller than you with their higher vantage point, and suddenly 
_every_ top is low cut.  Women's clothes are made that way and it's very difficult to find clothing that's not low cut and/or see through (tops AND bottoms).  I've gone to class in men's jeans & a pocket T and caught men leering down my shirt.  It's constant and it's very tiresome...


----------



## rails (Apr 30, 2014)

ExpatMedic0 said:


> Let me know if you need some extra CPR instructors in your class!
> I don't personally have a problem with it, but you could always ask people dress "business casual" or in comfortable clothing. I have had to attend CME classes with dress codes like these.



I second that. The "business casual" idea sounds like a safe way to communicate that requirement without risking offending anyone. You could also say "business casual" and list specific requirements (e.g. slacks, polo shirt).


----------



## UnkiEMT (Apr 30, 2014)

Rin said:


> Because you get dressed, look at your short self in the mirror, and say, "Everything's covered, good to go."  Then you go out and you have men a foot taller than you with their higher vantage point, and suddenly
> _every_ top is low cut.  Women's clothes are made that way and it's very difficult to find clothing that's not low cut and/or see through (tops AND bottoms).  I've gone to class in men's jeans & a pocket T and caught men leering down my shirt.  It's constant and it's very tiresome...




Speaking as someone who's 6'8, and thus at least a foot taller than most women, I can have some sympathy for that view point, certainly a men's v-neck can reveal more to me than may have been intended.

That being said, you can't tell me that a plunging neckline is designed to do anything but divert blood from my brain, or that a draping neckline isn't designed to distract me. Hell, even a sweetheart or surplice catches my eye more often than I'd like.


----------



## mycrofft (Apr 30, 2014)

Rin said:


> Because you get dressed, look at your short self in the mirror, and say, "Everything's covered, good to go."  Then you go out and you have men a foot taller than you with their higher vantage point, and suddenly
> _every_ top is low cut.  Women's clothes are made that way and it's very difficult to find clothing that's not low cut and/or see through (tops AND bottoms).  I've gone to class in men's jeans & a pocket T and caught men leering down my shirt.  It's constant and it's very tiresome...



I _*fully*_ sympathize and apologize for my own and any others'   past and future disgressions. (At least when guys get ogled the oglers are _usually_ behind us, hence we don't have issues during conversations etc).

But when the class is on all fours the "tall guy" thing goes out the window.

 And since I have no control over the potential students before they are in my class, I can't say "Dress to crawl around".


----------



## mycrofft (Apr 30, 2014)

*Not always*



UnkiEMT said:


> Speaking as someone who's 6'8, and thus at least a foot taller than most women, I can have some sympathy for that view point, certainly a men's v-neck can reveal more to me than may have been intended.
> 
> That being said, you can't tell me that a plunging neckline is designed to do anything but divert blood from my brain, or that a draping neckline isn't designed to distract me. Hell, even a sweetheart or surplice catches my eye more often than I'd like.



Speaking as the father of a young woman and having worked with many women as a nurse, some people like to dress a little revealingly and their idea of "a little" is more revealing than others'. 

But, just as I learned not to wear button fly jeans to go welding (ouch), they have to learn that it is safer, considerate and more seemly to dress for being on all fours. Its also an image enhancer if you are trying to be seen as professional and serious. There's a time and a place.


----------



## Anjel (Apr 30, 2014)

Robb said:


> I've done CPR classes on tables before. Wait maybe that was the CPR portion of ACLS...I can't remember. I've done CPR on a COR mannequin on a table in an alphabet supe class.
> 
> I don't personally see the issue here. If they want to take the risk of exposing themselves and/or intentionally position their clothing in order to try and use their sexual appeal to further themselves that's on them. Doesn't affect me in any way shape or form.
> 
> One thing I will never understand is why women wear low cut shirts and yell when they catch a guy glancing. I don't yell when girls give me elevator eyes. I know a chick who has three diamond peircings between her breasts in a line superior to inferior and she freaks out when people look at them. You put something shiny there what do you expect!?




Eh I really don't care. Lol


----------



## Rin (May 1, 2014)

UnkiEMT said:


> Speaking as someone who's 6'8, and thus at least a foot taller than most women, I can have some sympathy for that view point, certainly a men's v-neck can reveal more to me than may have been intended.
> 
> That being said, you can't tell me that a plunging neckline is designed to do anything but divert blood from my brain, or that a draping neckline isn't designed to distract me. Hell, even a sweetheart or surplice catches my eye more often than I'd like.



Ooh, baby, I love it when you talk fashion


----------



## Rin (May 1, 2014)

mycrofft said:


> I _*fully*_ sympathize and apologize for my own and any others'   past and future disgressions.  * (At least when guys get ogled the oglers are usually behind us, hence we don't have issues during conversations etc).*
> 
> But when the class is on all fours the "tall guy" thing goes out the window.



Guilty.  OTL

As far as the "tall guy" thing goes, I was just speaking about women's clothing in general.  Dressing for physical activity is another matter.


----------



## Aidey (May 1, 2014)

UnkiEMT said:


> That being said, you can't tell me that a plunging neckline is designed to do anything but divert blood from my brain, or that a draping neckline isn't designed to distract me. Hell, even a sweetheart or surplice catches my eye more often than I'd like.



Um, yeah. We can. It isn't all about you, or other men, or attracting attention in general. Believe it or not, sometimes we do things because we like them, not for anyone elses benefit.


----------



## Handsome Robb (May 1, 2014)

Aidey said:


> Um, yeah. We can. It isn't all about you, or other men, or attracting attention in general. Believe it or not, sometimes we do things because we like them, not for anyone elses benefit.




I'm gonna side with unki on this one. Low cut shirts were designed that way for a reason. To accentuate a women's body. If there's another good reason I'm all ears to it.


----------



## STXmedic (May 1, 2014)

Ventilation?


----------



## Aidey (May 1, 2014)

That still doesn't mean it is all about attracting attention from men. 


Again, sometimes we do things for ourselves and not for you.


----------



## UnkiEMT (May 1, 2014)

Aidey said:


> That still doesn't mean it is all about attracting attention from men.
> 
> 
> Again, sometimes we do things for ourselves and not for you.



Okay, convince me that a plunging neckline has some redeeming quality other than sexiness.

They're not convenient, they're not comfortable, and they require constant attention to make sure they stay in place, so what do they do?

Now, if you want to argue that you're wearing it because it's sexy, and you feel good, that's fine. Inherent to that argument though is that I, along with the rest of the heterosexual male population will find it attractive.

You don't have to be doing it for my gratification for it to have an effect on me.


----------



## Aidey (May 1, 2014)

UnkiEMT said:


> Okay, convince me that a plunging neckline has some redeeming quality other than sexiness.
> 
> They're not convenient, they're not comfortable, and they require constant attention to make sure they stay in place, so what do they do?
> 
> ...



I'm eyebrow deep in something that is taking priority right now, so I can't give this the full reply it deserves. But I feel the need to point out just how bloody freaking _creepy _ this post and the other one I quoted are. I can not accurately describe just how uncomfortable and perturbed I am with this attitude.


----------



## UnkiEMT (May 1, 2014)

Aidey said:


> I'm eyebrow deep in something that is taking priority right now, so I can't give this the full reply it deserves. But I feel the need to point out just how bloody freaking _creepy _ this post and the other one I quoted are. I can not accurately describe just how uncomfortable and perturbed I am with this attitude.



When you have the time, I'm genuinely interested to hear your counterpoint.

It's entirely possibly I made too broad a set of assumption about your position based on a few short lines, as I'm pretty sure you did about mine. There are many reasons to find me creepy, discomforting and disturbing, but I'm relatively sure my attitude towards women's fashion isn't one of them.


----------



## mycrofft (May 1, 2014)

I think a lot of generalization is going on here. Not all women do something for one reason. Not all guys feel one way about stuff. 

But if EMTLIFE folks are being honest about their feelings and other EMTLIFE folks are being honest about their reactions to those feelings, and discussion is not stifled, I think a little discomfort has to be expected and tolerated. As long as it isn't personally directed. Maybe send someone a message if it's getting to you?

I had three students with conspicuous décolleté today who were NOT posing or staging for the teacher (me). All did fine. It was a good class all around. One more to go.


----------



## Summit (May 2, 2014)

UnkiEMT said:


> That being said, you can't tell me that a plunging neckline is designed to do anything but divert blood from my brain, or that a draping neckline isn't designed to distract me. Hell, even a sweetheart or surplice catches my eye more often than I'd like.



Wow. 

You don't have to be a feminist to see the glaring ethnocentric (American "traditionalist" male centric) AND egocentric nature of that post. 

It's not always about you. If you enjoy it enjoy it if you don't then get over it. Being unable to is much more cultural than genetic.


----------



## ThadeusJ (May 2, 2014)

I partake in these conversations to learn something about the industry and those within it.  Some issues are technical, some professional and some cultural.  I'm always trying to absorb, learn and go on from there without judgement...on a daily basis.

Today I learned the word "décolleté".  Its Friday, so I guess I'm now done for the week...


----------



## RescueRider724 (May 2, 2014)

I am surprised that the ARC said you could not tell them to dress for physical activity, I am an AHA instructor and that is in every letter that goes out to the students: Dress for physical activity while kneeling on the floor for this class; as it is a requirement to perform the skills for your certification card.  I do not see anything rude or obnoxious about that simple statement.  The table issue is an instant fail in AHA as well.


----------



## mycrofft (May 2, 2014)

Summit said:


> Wow.
> 
> You don't have to be a feminist to see the glaring ethnocentric (American "traditionalist" male centric) AND egocentric nature of that post.
> 
> It's not always about you. If you enjoy it enjoy it if you don't then get over it. Being unable to is much more cultural than genetic.


-------------
If a tree falls in the woods and no one hears….

If you wear a sharp suit or strappy six inch Jimmy Chu heels and there's no one to see it….


----------



## mycrofft (May 2, 2014)

RescueRider724 said:


> I am surprised that the ARC said you could not tell them to dress for physical activity, I am an AHA instructor and that is in every letter that goes out to the students: Dress for physical activity while kneeling on the floor for this class; as it is a requirement to perform the skills for your certification card.  I do not see anything rude or obnoxious about that simple statement.  The table issue is an instant fail in AHA as well.



These were "community classes" (individuals sign up via email phone or in person somewhere), I have had no means of sending messages to prospective students. Otherwise I'd also say buy the manual, or at least read it online, before the class. The ARC chooses not to give their incoming students that warning about expected physical activities.


----------



## UnkiEMT (May 2, 2014)

Alright, since no one seems to be willing to actually debate me on this, I'll just do it myself!

[Fade to scene: A medium sized auditorium set up as a debate hall with stands for and audience.]

UR(M): Good Afternoon, and welcome to the 9th annual “Unkiereamus has been running calls instead of sleeping and might have finally slipped around the bend” debate, alternatively entitled “The is Unkiereamus a creepy, discomforting, perturbing, ethnocentric (American "traditionalist" male centric), egotistical troglodyte” debate. My name is Unkiereamus (Moderator), and I'll be moderating this debate. Without further ado, I'd like to introduce you to our guests, First up, representing Unkiereamus, we have Unkiereamus.

[Unkiereamus smiles and waves to moderate applause.]

UR(M): Next, representing Unkiereamus' imagination of the opposition, we have Unkiereamus (Opposition).

[Unkiereamus (Opposition) smiles and waves to thunderous applause, dislodged dust drifts down from the ceiling.]

UR(M): First, we have brief opening statements. First, Unkiereamus.

UR: Good afternoon, I'd like to thank everyone for coming out. I'm hoping in the course of this debate to adequately explain my position, and avoid any further misunderstandings. Again, Thank you.

[Lukewarm applause.]

UR(M): Thank you, next we'll hear from Unkiereamus (Opposition).

UR(O): Thank you for having me, and thank you for coming out. Its my goal in this debate to adequately represent my constituency, if I fail, I'm sure they'll let me know.

[Unkiereamus (Opposition) smiles warmly as the audience chuckles appreciatively.]

UR(M): Thank you. Moving right along, the first question goes to Unkiereamus (Opposition). What do you feel the role of clothing is, beyond protection and meeting minimum social modesty requirements?

UR(O): I'm glad you asked. As some of you may have noticed, I'm wearing a very well tailored suit today, and while it's not terribly comfortable, it makes me look gooooooooood. When I look good, I feel good, and I feel good about myself. It gives me more confidence. I wear this suit because I feel better about myself, and indeed the world, while I've got it on.

UR(M): Unkiereamus, any response?

UR: Yes, thank you. I in no way disagree with what Unkiereamus (Opposition) said. I just feel that he didn't take it far enough. In order to fully understand the position, we need to expand on what looking good means. It means that you're attractive, it means that you know that you're attractive, not only to yourself, but to the people around you. That attractiveness, and the knowledge of it, is where the ego boost comes from.

UR(M): Very well, the next question goes to Unkiereamus. You're on the record as saying, and I quote, "That being said, you can't tell me that a plunging neckline is designed to do anything but divert blood from my brain, or that a draping neckline isn't designed to distract me. Hell, even a sweetheart or surplice catches my eye more often than I'd like.". Doesn't that contradict what you just said, and imply that you feel dressing in a revealing manner is all about it's effect on men, and even imply that it's about you personally?

UR: First, I should say that I probably didn't express myself very clearly in that quote, as I was quite drunk when I said it.

[Audience murmurs.]

UR: That being said, what I was trying to express is that there are consequences that may be divorced from the motivation of any choice. Although dressing for attraction may be designed to elicit general attention and approval, as a member of the general populace, it will elicit a specific reaction in me. Trust me, I know women aren't trying to attract me in particular, but I'll take what I can get.

[Audience laughs.]

UR(M): Very well. Unkiereamus (Opposition), would you care to make a rebuttal?

UR(O): Well, leaving aside the dubious judgment displayed by my opponent by posting under the influence, I'm struck by something in what my opponent said. The way he speaks of "being distracted" by a woman's decolletage implies that he not only objectifies women, but further more blames them for "distracting him".

UR(M): I'll allow a rebuttal of the rebuttal if you'd like to make one, Unkiereamus.

UR: I believe I would, yes. First, as to the allegation of objectification, I'll say simply that it's patently false. There's no possible way you could have enough information to adequately judge how I treat women, however similarly, there's no way you'll take my word for it, so I see no point in further debate. Moving on to the matter of distraction, outside of instances of social warfare, I no more think it's the fault of a woman distracting me with her breasts than I do think it's the fault of a sunset being pretty that it caught my eye. Moreover, I don't generally find those distractions unwelcome, and as I've said before, in the instances where I would find the distraction unwelcome, I have developed mechanisms to avoid them.

UR(M): That's an interesting concept you brought up, "Social warfare.". I'm assuming that you're making a tongue in cheek reference to the exertion of influence over other people by means of interpersonal relationships?

[Unkiereamus nods.]

(ed note: Okay, that one was a little...a lot...contrived, but I'm tired and couldn't think of a better way to introduce it.)

UR(M): Unkiereamus (Opposition), any thoughts?

UR(O): As much as I'd love to tell you that it's a blatant falsehood, it certainly happens that women use physical attractiveness as a weapon in “Social warfare”. It's not common, it's even relatively rare, but it does happen. I would like to point out, however, that men do the same thing. The tactics may vary between the genders, but the strategy remains the same.

UR(M): Unkiereamus, your response?

UR: I really have nothing to add, I agree with Unkiereamus (Opposition), and you know how that makes me crazy.

UR(M): And that's all the time we have today, I'd like to thank the audience for their attention and our guest for their civil debate. Any last words?

UR(O): I'd just like to say that you're looking good, Unkiereamus.

UR: Thanks, it's the suit.

[Fade to black]


----------



## mycrofft (May 2, 2014)

and …..scene.


----------



## Aidey (May 2, 2014)

UnkiEMT said:


> Alright, since no one seems to be willing to actually debate me on this, I'll just do it myself!



1. I said I was busy, I'm still busy. 

2. This reply was not funny. 

3. If you want something to do until I'm not busy, google "modesty doctrine rape culture" (sans quotes) and that should get you headed in the right direction. While not exactly the topic at hand, there is ample discussion about clothing and men to get you started.


----------



## UnkiEMT (May 3, 2014)

Aidey said:


> 1. I said I was busy, I'm still busy.



Fair enough, I waited 24 hours, I assumed you'd lost interest, but if you want more time, I'll wait.



> 2. This reply was not funny.



No, your reply was not funny at all. Mine was a little funny, but that wasn't actually it's purpose, it's purpose was to provide a framework for the initiation of actual discourse.



> 3. If you want something to do until I'm not busy, google "modesty doctrine rape culture" (sans quotes) and that should get you headed in the right direction. While not exactly the topic at hand, there is ample discussion about clothing and men to get you started.



I'm familiar with the argument, and not only do I think that it's only tangentially related to the actual topic at hand, but I think it's inherently fallacious.


----------



## Anjel (May 3, 2014)

I feel like I shouldn't but I kind of agree with Unki. I wear clothes that make my certain assets look good. In return make me feel good, because other people(men)  think I look good. Even if it's only my husband. 

The push up bras, plunging neck lines, etc. draw attention to your chest. Which is fine and if it makes you feel sexy and good then wear it. And you should be able to wear whatever you want without being constantly stared at. Or made to feel ashamed or like you need to cover up. But I don't think it's the end of the world if a guy is looking at you. It's just recognition that they also think you look as good in the those clothes as you feel while wearing them.


----------



## MonkeyArrow (May 3, 2014)

Even beyond the idea of a male "objectifying" you, the fact that women wear plunging necklines is inherent to animal behavior, just as it is a man's to notice. You ever watch one of those Animal Planet shows where it's mating the season and the guy with the cool voice goes like _the male peacock is spreading his feathers to display his colors to the females_. Why in the world do they do that? So they can attract mates. Its similar as to how females (and males) make themselves look good to attract the opposite gender. It is a naturally inherent process, and to take offense to a guy looking is unfair. 

Furthermore, the idea that a woman takes offense at a guy looking at her furthers the idea of a societal double standard and "social warfare". Why should you fault a man prospectively "eyeing" you, just as you probably do to other men. Without finding a mate, you can't reproduce. And going back to high school biology, the simplest of Darwin's concepts includes the ability of an animal to survive and reproduce. Males cannot reproduce without a female. Back to double standards, why is it that females, in certain sectors, are treated differently than men? In jails, for examples, male officers are not allowed to search female inmates where as female officers are allowed to search male inmates. Is it because females "feel bad" when males touch them or is it because society is saying that men are more likely to conduct themselves unprofessionally then females would? Are you saying that males have a greater chance of groping females? Go look at any episode of Criminal Minds, count the number of male suspects to female suspects. Socially, we continue to propagate these standards and it is not reasonable for you to attempt to blame a male's behavior on his sick, perverted, demeaning (or whatever) mind.


----------



## Rin (May 3, 2014)

For me, it really comes down to _ how_ a guy looks at me.  If a guy notices me, maybe gives me a smile, it's flattering.  If a guy is straight staring without any friendliness toward me as a person, I start feeling uncomfortable.  If he is leering, giving predatory looks, invading my personal space, brushing against me or otherwise touching me, he's crossed the line.  

Bottom line, don't be a creeper and it's all good.


----------



## Handsome Robb (May 3, 2014)

I still for my believe certain styles of clothes were designed for a specific reason. The majority wear them for that reason, some don't but the majority do. 

Knowing the reason these clothes in question were designed the way they were can women really blame men for interpreting it that way? Why not blame the clothing designer or the women that used the clothing that exposes them to further themselves in a career, personal or romantic endeavor?

If you don't want to be looked at in a sexual way don't dress in a way that accentuates your body in a sexual way. It's that simple.


----------



## mycrofft (May 3, 2014)

Anjel said:


> I feel like I shouldn't but I kind of agree with Unki. I wear clothes that make my certain assets look good. In return make me feel good, because other people(men)  think I look good. Even if it's only my husband.
> 
> The push up bras, plunging neck lines, etc. draw attention to your chest. Which is fine and if it makes you feel sexy and good then wear it. And you should be able to wear whatever you want without being constantly stared at. Or made to feel ashamed or like you need to cover up. But I don't think it's the end of the world if a guy is looking at you. It's just recognition that they also think you look as good in the those clothes as you feel while wearing them.



On all fours in my CPR class. ?
------------
Reminds me of that joke; if you want to take someone down a notch, just imagine everything they say ending with the words "in my underwear" or "after picking my nose".


----------



## mycrofft (May 3, 2014)

Rin said:


> For me, it really comes down to _ how_ a guy looks at me.  If a guy notices me, maybe gives me a smile, it's flattering.  If a guy is straight staring without any friendliness toward me as a person, I start feeling uncomfortable.  If he is leering, giving predatory looks, invading my personal space, brushing against me or otherwise touching me, he's crossed the line.
> 
> Bottom line, don't be a creeper and it's all good.



What if we sort of lose focus and are remembering to pick up the dog at the groomers….
and thus we resemble ogling zombies?

It happens! It happens!h34r:


----------



## UnkiEMT (May 3, 2014)

Rin said:


> For me, it really comes down to _ how_ a guy looks at me.  If a guy notices me, maybe gives me a smile, it's flattering.  If a guy is straight staring without any friendliness toward me as a person, I start feeling uncomfortable.  If he is leering, giving predatory looks, invading my personal space, brushing against me or otherwise touching me, he's crossed the line.
> 
> Bottom line, don't be a creeper and it's all good.



The way I figure it, that's part of the social contract. I'm allowed to look, I'm not allowed to stare, and if I'm caught looking I have to at least pretend to be abashed.

I forget which comedian said it, but there's a quote out there along the lines of "The first thing a man notices about a woman is her eyes, then when he's sure she's not looking, her breasts.".


----------



## Rin (May 4, 2014)

Robb said:


> I still for my believe certain styles of clothes were designed for a specific reason. The majority wear them for that reason, some don't but the majority do.
> 
> Knowing the reason these clothes in question were designed the way they were can women really blame men for interpreting it that way? Why not blame the clothing designer or the women that used the clothing that exposes them to further themselves in a career, personal or romantic endeavor?
> 
> If you don't want to be looked at in a sexual way don't dress in a way that accentuates your body in a sexual way. It's that simple.



There is a world of wrong in this. 

What does it mean to not accentuate my body in a sexual way?  To not wear clothing that fits my shape properly, thus following my curves?  Must women hide themselves in ill-fitting clothing in an attempt to repel unwanted advances?
Or is the real problem that men find women's bodies inherently sexual and can't bother to reign in their one-sided attraction?

No matter how much a woman covers, it's never enough.  There's always some hint of curves beneath those baggy clothes, some tiny attractive detail peeking through that draws unwanted attention.

I get the same sexual attention when I'm wearing my EMS pants, poorly fitting men's uniform shirt & oversized men's jacket as I do when I'm wearing a nice v-neck and skirt.  It's not the way I dress, it's the way men choose to behave.


----------



## DesertMedic66 (May 4, 2014)

Robb said:


> I still for my believe certain styles of clothes were designed for a specific reason. The majority wear them for that reason, some don't but the majority do.
> 
> Knowing the reason these clothes in question were designed the way they were can women really blame men for interpreting it that way? Why not blame the clothing designer or the women that used the clothing that exposes them to further themselves in a career, personal or romantic endeavor?
> 
> If you don't want to be looked at in a sexual way don't dress in a way that accentuates your body in a sexual way. It's that simple.



I second this statement. I know it is not in favor nor do I really care. If you want people to view you as a professional then dress like one. If you want guys and gals (I work in a huge LGBT community) to look at you like eye candy then dress like that. 

The easy solution is mandatory uniforms. They are not "sexy" by any standard and men and women wear the exact same cloths.


----------



## Rin (May 4, 2014)

Rin said:


> I get the same sexual attention when I'm wearing my EMS pants, poorly fitting men's uniform shirt & oversized men's jacket as I do when I'm wearing a nice v-neck and skirt.  It's not the way I dress, it's the way men choose to behave.



I can't stress this enough. Dressing and conducting myself as a professional does not decrease the amount of unwanted sexual attention I receive.  Men *don't care* that my uniform is baggy and unflattering.

You may personally treat women with respect, but don't assume that your good behavior translates to your peers.  Accept that someone with a closer perspective might have more experience in the matter.  
If your wife or daughter told you some guy was bothering her, would you tell her to just cover herself better and she won't have any more problems?  Do you _really_ believe that?

How about instead of excusing some men's poor behavior and blaming others, we make them take responsibility instead?


----------



## Aidey (May 4, 2014)

Robb said:


> If you don't want to be looked at in a sexual way don't dress in a way that accentuates your body in a sexual way. It's that simple.



I guess I better dig my burka out of the closet.


----------



## ExpatMedic0 (May 4, 2014)

Whatever a woman or man chooses to wear is up to them, but I still do not see a problem with a "business casual" dress code for professional CME training? As I stated before, I have attended many CME courses with this dress code. I am a tank top and t shirt kind of kind of guy, BUT I own slacks, polo shirts, and collar shirts with ties to adhere with dress codes when necessary.


----------



## Anjel (May 4, 2014)

For CME yes I agree business casual is appropriate. I think the OP was teaching a general CPR class open to the public. Kind of hard to set professional standards, when most really aren't professionals.


----------



## Anjel (May 4, 2014)

Robb said:


> If you don't want to be looked at in a sexual way don't dress in a way that accentuates your body in a sexual way. It's that simple.




This I have a problem with. I should be able to dress however I want. And if there is anything happening that makes me uncomfortable, it's not my fault. 

Looking is fine. But like Rin said... Staring and creeping is not.


----------



## mycrofft (May 4, 2014)

ExpatMedic0 said:


> Whatever a woman or man chooses to wear is up to them, but I still do not see a problem with a "business casual" dress code for professional CME training? As I stated before, I have attended many CME courses with this dress code. I am a tank top and t shirt kind of kind of guy, BUT I own slacks, polo shirts, and collar shirts with ties to adhere with dress codes when necessary.



Up to them? Not if it distracts from my teaching or robs my other students' attention, or if it is not allowed by whomever contracted me to present the class. I don't care if I'm teaching for Hooters or the Iranian embassy, I'm there to import knowledge in a safe and optimal environment which could just as easily be taught if we all wore the paper jumpsuits painters wear*.

Business casual: not only is it perfect for the class, but in the case of a class at a business or organization, it presents a lasting impression you will want, instead of the maneuvering and etc. otherwise occurring. (I always remind people to empty their pockets before we do the HAINES hands-on for that reason).

The whole issue comes up for me because, too me, it seems that in its zeal to get paying customers, there is no pre-event info from the ARC about proper wear. I have students who ask if they can do it on the table and then smile. Nope. You can attend but I cannot certify you.

*Since I'm on the floor too (I am the "victim" for the first demo of pt rolling and HAINES) I wear khakis and a button up shirt with long tails. My ideal wear when I'm a student is a long sleeve t-shirt and jeans with suspenders. And black sports shoes all the time.


----------



## mycrofft (May 4, 2014)

*Reeling it back to the OP*



Anjel said:


> This I have a problem with. I should be able to dress however I want. And if there is anything happening that makes me uncomfortable, it's not my fault.
> 
> Looking is fine. But like Rin said... Staring and creeping is not.



On one hand, you have the right to wear bacon into a pit bull kennel (or droopy male jeans to a Chippendales' show), but then you have to handle the barking. And males need to stop valuing being a wannabe thug and act like _men_. Little class on both sides.
===============================================
My OP is twofold, primary and secondary:

SEC: People, and so far after four years exclusively women*, wear the darndest stuff to a CPR Class (unsafe shoes, short or revealing clothes). 

PRI: Some female students seem to want to use this to flirt or otherwise affect the instructor. (Coincidentally, they were not the best when they were tested nor when they were doing the practicum).

SIDEBAR: texting in class bugs me, but when I finally noted they were doing well as well as everyone else in the practicums, I dealt with my prejudice. So it isn't all "get off my lawn". But no phones during practicums.

SCENARIO: I teach a class at your company. ANY GENDER: you wear something short, revealing, or have a pocket protector that spills everything on the floor, have on socks with Bart Simpson naked, or whatever. What sort of lasting impression will that leave on co-workers or boss? Every time my boss looks at Mycrofft, she sees the guy who not only had an avalanche of Sharpees and the Simpsons socks on, but had the good sense to select these things that morning.


*The closest to inappropriate wear from a male was one guy who came ten minutes late, ball cap on backwards and sunglasses on indoors. He quietly straightened it all out after the first practicum, conscious choking.


----------



## mycrofft (May 4, 2014)

If we tiptoe out quietly and ease the door shut maybe they'll stay asleep…..


----------



## Rin (May 4, 2014)

Your casual dismissal has taught me the error of my ways.

I'll just get back home now. I see now that I'm to blame for all my troubles for leaving the kitchen in the first place.  I'll just stay indoors like a good girl, only go out accompanied by a male relative, and I won't have any more problems.  :: right back atcha


----------



## mycrofft (May 4, 2014)

I started this about some of my students' unrealistic costume selections.

It has become a personal thing for some people.

Maybe the mods will lock this and let the discussion move elsewhere? The juice is out of this one.

:deadhorse:


----------



## ThadeusJ (May 5, 2014)

Interesting post on LinkedIn (for those with accounts) this morning that sums up the views posted here:

https://www.linkedin.com/today/post...at-your-tattoos?trk=tod-home-art-list-large_0


----------



## ExpatMedic0 (May 5, 2014)

ThadeusJ said:


> Interesting post on LinkedIn (for those with accounts) this morning that sums up the views posted here:
> 
> https://www.linkedin.com/today/post...at-your-tattoos?trk=tod-home-art-list-large_0



haha interesting read, I have sleeves and did not actually think of correlating that with the current topic. I normally keep them covered at work to avoid attention.


----------



## ThadeusJ (May 5, 2014)

I only have one (on my vocal chords that reads "If you can read this, you are too close").


----------



## Aidey (May 5, 2014)

mycrofft said:


> I started this about some of my students' unrealistic costume selections.
> 
> It has become a personal thing for some people.
> 
> ...



I am disinclined to acquiesce to this request. You started a thread with some very sexist overtones and go figure, this turned into a post about sexist attitudes. Considering how women are vastly outnumbered in this field a think a little education is a good thing. 



ThadeusJ said:


> Interesting post on LinkedIn (for those with accounts) this morning that sums up the views posted here:
> 
> https://www.linkedin.com/today/post...at-your-tattoos?trk=tod-home-art-list-large_0



No, just, no. As much as I hate the word entitled, that is what this attitude screams to me. You are not entitled to stare at someone just because they're showing skin or tattoos. Their body is still their body and you need to respect that, _especially _if they say something to you. You don't get to keep staring just because you think something they adorned themselves with is an invitation.


----------



## ExpatMedic0 (May 5, 2014)

We could really dig into this topic with micro-analysis of cognitive behavior, especially if we where to use the theory of  dramaturgical analysis. I don't really believe that is necessary though. I think at the end of the day people can present themselves publicly however they choose. However its easy to cross into the social grey area of glancing versus staring, and practicality versus excess. However, when one decides to attend a formal training event, I believe its a reasonable request to mandate a dress code for both genders of business casual and clothing that does not interfere with the ability to accomplish psycho-motor objectives. Even if they are not medical professionals and are paying customers.


----------



## Aidey (May 5, 2014)

So here is where I take major issue with a lot of the attitudes expressed in this thread. What makes you think that attracting male attention is the damn goal?  A guy is at the gym, or doing manual labor, or it is a hot day out and he takes his shirt off, and the assumption is he is hot and wants to cool off. Doesn't generally matter what his body size/shape is, no one really bats an eye or makes a comment. 

But a woman can not work out in just a sports bra, or even a tank top, or wear a bikini top without the assumption being that she just wants attention. And if her body isn't "good enough" she is told to cover up. Because it is obviously all about the feelings of the people forced to look at her, and not about how she feels. 

We have places in this world that stick women in a burka so their bodies don't distract men and cause lustful thoughts. Showing an arm or an ankle is unacceptable because it is too much skin. Guess what, *we're* not the ones sexualizing our bodies and what we wear, it is something be done to us. 

It doesn't matter what we wear. We still get oogled. It doesn't matter why we wear it, and if we are only doing for ourselves. Men still assume it is for their benefit, and act like it is for their benefit. Same goes for makeup. Newsflash, we do not do everything to attract your attention. We do and wear certain things because we like it, it makes us feel good or we're just plain freaking hot. Not because it has anything to do with a man. 

I really hate that my choices are either cover up in loose clothing or have people assume I'm trying to attract attention. As has been pointed out earlier, a short woman may be in a perfectly "respectable" top...until they come across a guy who is 8 inches taller. A woman gains 5lbs and suddenly her every day jeans are skin tight on her butt. So now she has to wear different pants, just to avoid someone thinking she wants attention. 

I really can not express how frustrating it is to have to plan your entire wardrobe around not getting unwanted attention. Or how frustrating that attention really can be. Even if you don't think you're being creepy you are very likely not the first guy to give us unwanted attention that day. 

Someone talked about women giving men "elevator eyes", yeah I hate to burst your bubble, we're not always checking you out in a sexual way, we're doing a freaking threat assessment. I know all men aren't a threat, but when 1 in 4 college women have been sexualy assaulted, we tend to be a little skittish.


----------



## MonkeyArrow (May 5, 2014)

Aidey said:


> So here is where I take major issue with a lot of the attitudes expressed in this thread. What makes you think that attracting male attention is the damn goal?  A guy is at the gym, or doing manual labor, or it is a hot day out and he takes his shirt off, and the assumption is he is hot and wants to cool off. Doesn't generally matter what his body size/shape is, no one really bats an eye or makes a comment.
> 
> But a woman can not work out in just a sports bra, or even a tank top, or wear a bikini top without the assumption being that she just wants attention. And if her body isn't "good enough" she is told to cover up. Because it is obviously all about the feelings of the people forced to look at her, and not about how she feels.
> 
> Someone talked about women giving men "elevator eyes", yeah I hate to burst your bubble, we're not always checking you out in a sexual way, we're doing a freaking threat assessment. I know all men aren't a threat, but when 1 in 4 college women have been sexualy assaulted, we tend to be a little skittish.



Ok. So as a guy who has previously posted in this thread, let me try to respond to some of these...allegations.

First of all, I don't assume a shirtless guy is wanting attention but I/we (me and my friends) do look at certain guys as attention grabbers depending on the situation. Example: Guy jogging on beach shirtless. Cool. Guy working out doing crunches at the (frigid) gym. Attention wannabe. Furthermore, I don't see a problem with a woman wearing a sports bra to exercise. Just because I notice a woman wearing a sports bra doesn't mean that I automatically think that she wants attention.

About the middle section of your reply that I edited out for brevity, women don't have to look a certain way for men to notice them. Do you think in the middle east where women are covered up, men don't notice them? Men don't assume that a woman wears what she does for him. However, a man does and will take notice of such choices. How do you think relationships start? Your mentality is that we SHOULD be in the middle eastern segregated setting where men and women have no interaction. Have different religious institutions, have different times and places for eating, etc. Why does a woman have to change what she is wearing again? As if you said, you're not doing it for a guy, then she shouldn't have to change out of the 5 lbs. bigger jeans. Only when a woman wants to look good in someone else's view would she logically change her pants. If she didn't  care, well, she just wouldn't care what people thought about her skin tight jeans. If you wanna wear clothes because, "we're just plain freaking hot," then you must expect the reactions of men who also view you as being freaking hot.

The elevator eyes and threat assessment comment is the part that really bugs me as a guy. What the hell happened to founding principles of this country? The bill of rights, the right to a lawyer. The fundamental basis of our justice system: innocent until proven guilty. If you view every guy as a threat, you either need to move or look at your attitude (towards guys) through a new perspective. Why shouldn't guys be able to give girls "elevator eyes" and conduct their/our own threat assessment on you? Female prisons do exist. Females all around the world are arrested, charged, and convicted of crimes every day across this great country. Why do you automatically get to play an innocent card and villanize us when we are doing the same thing. Us looking at you (collectively) is the same thing as you looking at us with elevator eyes. The only difference is that you get to apply a double standard and "justify" your actions while we become the scum of the earth.


----------



## mycrofft (May 5, 2014)

*Patience over. My last look at this thread. Messages welcome.*

The thread was started honestly but apparently some subjects can't be brought up in this open forum without it beckoning a food fight. I guess this group of participants were not the right audience, or it might have been better down in the subjectless section.

Here's my sexist overtone: I have had female students come to class dressed inappropriately for doing the class work. Some also flirt for the teacher. I don't like being subjected to it. I tried to state that with more weasel words but that is the flat out truth. I'm old enough and have been around long enough to know when I'm getting pitched at. I blame the Red Cross for not specifying in pre class communication that the class includes getting down on all fours, and lying down on the floor and being rolled over, and being grabbed across the chest and bent over from the side, and abdominal thrusts. 

As far as education for the male members of the field about and by the undertrodden females (who are outnumbered), fine. I agree. A lot of it is due to ignorance, some is because some guys want it to be a mysogynistic boy's club (yes, not men's club). Guys, listen up, and I say go back and read the thread about "You know you're a female in EMS when" or nearly identical wording. Get a clue about your female co-workers and potential partners.

How can I "understand anything about females"? I'm a father of one, a husband of one, a brother of one, I belong in a profession which is 97% female, and I've had to struggle through my professional college and promotion because of sexism against me. I've gone to bat for military promotion of deserving females in my military units. So _can_ it. You don't have the creds. Make your statements about yourselves and not about others.

Obviously this doesn't apply equally or to everyone, and I'm anticipating some mod backlash. So be it.

Aidey, thanks for the "disinclined" thing. It was the classiest and best-humored entry so far. :beerchug:


----------



## MonkeyArrow (May 5, 2014)

Sorry for taking this off-topic of the original purpose of this thread, mycrofft. Maybe the mods can separate the off-topic parts of this discussion and make it its own thread in a more appropriate place of the forum to keep this thread from derailing any further. I, for my part, will no longer respond off-topic to this thread. If anyone wants to take it further, start a new thread or PM me and I'll be happy to further discuss my position on the topic(s).

As for the OP, yes. Certain people will continue to dress in certain ways. I know you said ARC will not let you set a dress code in the pre-participant e-mail, so maybe make it clear to incoming students. Refuse to admit students that don't meet your dress code. I don't know. ARC will probably shut you down very quickly on that one. If you were AHA and thus an independent contractor, I would suggest you make it [dress code] part of the user's agreement as a part of signing up with you through your AHA independent venue (website).


----------

