# FDNY blizzard responses



## 94H (Dec 27, 2010)

According to the article there at 1300 calls backlogged in the CAD, 3 Hr wait times for critical calls, anyone else hear about this?


http://gothamist.com/2010/12/27/fdny_ems_response_compromised_durin.php#comments


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## Chimpie (Dec 27, 2010)

> FDNY EMS has a aprox 5 hoour delay to Emergencies. FDNY personal are advised not to do CPR more then 20 min due to high vol of jobs.



Source: Twitter


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## 46Young (Dec 27, 2010)

Chimpie said:


> Source: Twitter



The last time I worked there, medics were required to contact On-Line-Medical-Control in order to pronounce the pt. It would take roughly 12-15 minutes to drop a tube and push your standing order IV meds, and another five to ask for and execute OLMC options. 20 minutes sounds about right to pronounce a pt with the full algorithm and options onboard. Really, if there's no positive prognostic indicators in that timeframe, they're not going to make it. I don't see why people are still stuck in the mindset of needing to txp every cardiac arrest pt. 

They can hold jobs based on priority, so the injury minors, EDP's (non violent), sick jobs and such will be waiting for a quite a while.


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## firecoins (Dec 27, 2010)

The cooling protocol must have been easier to perform.  

Cant imagine transporting a code in this weather anyway.  Just terrible weather.


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## emt seeking first job (Dec 27, 2010)

My vollie took the vehicles out of service.

They invited people to respond on foot in the area near the base, but no rigs on the road.....


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## ffemt8978 (Dec 27, 2010)

emt seeking first job said:


> My vollie took the vehicles out of service.
> 
> They invited people to respond on foot in the area near the base, but no rigs on the road.....



I can just see a couple of responders transporting a patient on a gurney pushing them down the street in order to get them to the hospital.


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## firecoins (Dec 28, 2010)

ffemt8978 said:


> I can just see a couple of responders transporting a patient on a gurney pushing them down the street in order to get them to the hospital.



Unfortunatly we had so much snow, that wasn't a possibility


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## EMSLaw (Dec 28, 2010)

I didn't have to ride during this particular blizzard, but last time, it was a mess.  Ambulances getting stuck in the snow, long response times... Call volume always shoots up for some reason, and, of course, even when you get to the patient, getting him or her out and onto the rig is an adventure and then to the hospital... well, not fun.

Fortunately, we're looking at unseasonably warm weather this coming weekend.  Otherwise, I'm sure we'd be going to houses with snowed-over steps and icy driveways for weeks after a storm like this.


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## firecoins (Dec 28, 2010)

call volume shoots up during a snow storm because they don't worry about their nonsense complaints until they are trapped at home. Than they think we can drive em.


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## DrParasite (Dec 28, 2010)

around 8pm, NYC had 500 ambulances in service, and a backlog of 2000 EMS calls.  20 ambulances were requested from NJ, 10 went to Queens, and the other went to either Brooklyn or the Bronx.

CFR engines were told to do CPR for 20 minutes, then call medical control to pronounce the patient.

My buddy was working in brooklyn last night when the snow was falling... his paramedic unit was stuck in the snow for 8 hrs.

When I came into work at 6pm (at a large city in NJ), we have 45 calls holding.  5 ambulances and the heavy rescue were all stuck in the snow.   I took over CityWide operations around 930pm.  we still had between 30 and 45 calls holding, some who had mad their first request for an ambulate before noon, and one by one, we got them all answered (very often by sending a unit and finding the person had already left by private auto, the caller was nowhere to be found, or the caller decided they no longer wanted an ambulance), and all stuck ambulances were freed.  around 3am, we finally cleared all pending calls.

sounded like what Pittsburgh experienced when they had their major storm.  And before anyone asks, in my city, the FD didn't help dig us out at all.  I worked last night at my side job, and it was the same way.  the ambulance handled all EMS calls, DPW helped plow the way to get to the scene, and the EMS-Rescue and CERT helped clear the path to the ambulance from the front door, but this town has a better snow removal plan than the the city that I work in full time.  no where was a firefighter anywhere on scene for ANY EMS calls.


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## Hockey (Dec 28, 2010)

firecoins said:


> call volume shoots up during a snow storm because they don't worry about their nonsense complaints until they are trapped at home. Than they think we can drive em.



Absofreakinglutely I never realized that until a few weeks ago.  I ran 14 calls in 12 hours.  13 of them being absolutely bs from "ankle pain" to "I aint feelin right and ma wants me to shovel in the morning" 

I don't even remember what was legit but it surely wasn't anything either


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## emt seeking first job (Dec 28, 2010)

*I am not a socialist, but,*

I think NYC could tax a bit more on the upper end, and have services to keep the city from shutting down after a little snow.

It does not snow that often here, but when it does, everything gets shut down.

Sanitation was testing those snow melting machines.

With the equipment and the personal they could truck a lot of it out, and I can see shutting buses down, but both subway lines near me are down. Having the subway up and running should be more of a priority. They should run MORE trains in the snow. Keep people out of their cars....

This is sad.


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## mgr22 (Dec 28, 2010)

I think lots of folks have unrealistic expectations about the abilities of public services to function at 100% during disasters. I understand the sense of entitlement, but resources are neither unlimited nor omnipotent.


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## emt seeking first job (Dec 28, 2010)

*yes and no*

There are limits but NYC could do more.

In Canada, it snows more, they have the structure in place to deal with it.

Without getting too involved, one thing, if drugs and gambling were legalized and taxed, then the revenue gained in those taxes and saved from enforcement could go towards better services.

If LE can buy special equipment for drug interdiction, they could buy Snow Cats and things like that...

Again, there are limits I know, but they could have done more.


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## mgr22 (Dec 28, 2010)

emt seeking first job said:


> There are limits but NYC could do more.
> 
> In Canada, it snows more, they have the structure in place to deal with it.
> 
> ...



You're there, I'm not (not anymore), so I admit you've got a better sense of what's happening right now.

I'm not sure if the Canada comparison is valid. Canada's a big place but, in general, heavy snow in Canada is much more the norm than in NYC. I spent lots of time in the Barrie, Ont area, where winter blizzards were not uncommon, and didn't qualify as "disasters." I'm talking about scenarios where public services are overwhelmed by very unusual conditions. I think it's a little like commercial aviation: there are all sorts of safety features built into the system and its equipment, but when two engines fail, all the pilots can do is try to find someplace to land.

Hmmm...that analogy sounds a bit extreme. Oh well, you get my...uh...drift, right?


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## jjesusfreak01 (Dec 28, 2010)

Nah, its not a bad analogy. The difference between, say, NY and Edmonton Canada isn't in the ability of their emergency services to cope, but in the mindset of their citizens. Whilst in NY (and generally anywhere in the US), people will call 911 for every stupid thing in the middle of a blizzard, I can imagine in Canada they probably all sit at home and deal with it until the storm blows over.


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## EMSLaw (Dec 28, 2010)

emt seeking first job said:


> There are limits but NYC could do more



To be fair to NYC, this was the largest recorded snowfall in Central Park.  Two feet of snow is a heck of a lot, and I don't think anywhere is really prepared to deal with that smoothly.


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## abckidsmom (Dec 28, 2010)

emt seeking first job said:


> I think NYC could tax a bit more on the upper end, and have services to keep the city from shutting down after a little snow.
> 
> It does not snow that often here, but when it does, everything gets shut down.
> 
> ...



This is inflammatory, and exaggerated.  Public services prepare for dealing quickly with the most likely scenario.  We get a few inches of snow a few times a year.  Except last year, when we got a couple of feet, 4 times.  I would not and do not expect my public services, be it snow removal or fire department, to prepare for a winter on that level every year.  People should be prepared to provide for themselves, with or without power, with or without help, for the duration of what is an emergency for THAT area.  

As for the taxing...how do you think property taxes work?  Those who own all those high-dollar real estate places pay WAY more taxes than those who own nothing, or own a very small apartment or townhouse or whatever small real estate looks like in NYC.


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## 46Young (Dec 28, 2010)

emt seeking first job said:


> I think NYC could tax a bit more on the upper end, and have services to keep the city from shutting down after a little snow.
> 
> It does not snow that often here, but when it does, everything gets shut down.
> 
> ...



How much more do you expect the residents to be taxed? You're already paying out for city tax on top of federal, state, etc. Remember when Bloomberg greatly raised the traffic and parking tickets? If you want to stay out of the ghetto, you're paying 1700-1900 amonth for a 2 BR, 1200+ for a decent 1 BR in the outer boroughs. How about those in Nassau County paying upwards of 10K a year in yearly property taxes? The insane cost of living coupled with a poor quality of life relative to other areas of the country are why I left. 

The city is broke. The enttitlement crowd are sucking up all the resources, and not contributing to the local tax base. Asking the affluent to buck up to carry those that contribute little to nothing is wrong. After I first moved to Virginia, I would complain about the lack of services and recreational facilities when compared to NY. I experienced the same snowstorms the abckidsmom did. I was taken aback by the lack of resources for snow removal. But then I realized that the state is required to balance it's budget by law. If we run out of funds, we run out of funds. Perhaps the federal gov't could learn from VA's example. 

Looking to the affluent to carry everyone else reminds me of a story that explains our tax law:

UNDERSTANDING THE TAX LAW

This is a VERY simple way to understand the tax laws. Read on - it does
make you think!!

Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand. Suppose that every day,  ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this.

The first four men -- the poorest -- would pay nothing; the fifth would pay $1: the  sixth would pay $3; the seventh $7; the eighth $12; The ninth $18. The tenth  man -- the richest -- would pay $59.

That's what they decided to do. The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every  day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement -- until one day, the owner  threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm  going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20." So now dinner for the ten only cost $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first  four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other  six -- the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that  everyone would get his "fair share?" The six men realized that $20 divided by  six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth  man and the sixth man would end up being "paid" to eat their meal.

So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's  bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts  each should pay. And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the  seventh paid $5, the eighth paid $9, the ninth paid $12, leaving the tenth man  with a bill of $52 instead of his earlier $59.

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for  free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.  I I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the  tenth. "But he got $7!" "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only  saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got seven times more than me!" "That's  true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $7 back when I got only  $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!" "Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night he didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate  without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something  important. They were $52 short!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college instructors, is how the tax  system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from  a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they  just may not show up at the table anymore.

Unfortunately, Some people cannot grasp this straight-forward logic!

This is why money is leaving our country. In my personal example, I cleared over 110k this year. I bought a house in VA, and I'm happy to support the local economy and housing market. My wife and I were two former tax paying citizens of NYC, w/ combined income of over 140k before we left. That's 140k less with which the city can tax. There are many more like us, I can assure you.

When I lived in Queens, when I knew a storm was coming, I would park on the left side of the street, on the corner facing a main road. The plows push more snow to the right. All I had to do was dig a path straight out. Run your errands in the mid morning, after all the spots open up from commuters going to work. Some put their garbage cans in the spot they digged out in order to hold it. Just toss the cans back to the sidewalk. Walk to the corner bodega if you need groceries. You can't count on the city for everything.


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## 46Young (Dec 28, 2010)

abckidsmom said:


> This is inflammatory, and exaggerated.  Public services prepare for dealing quickly with the most likely scenario.  We get a few inches of snow a few times a year.  Except last year, when we got a couple of feet, 4 times.  I would not and do not expect my public services, be it snow removal or fire department, to prepare for a winter on that level every year.  People should be prepared to provide for themselves, with or without power, with or without help, for the duration of what is an emergency for THAT area.
> 
> No one feels they should be accountable for anything anymore, to help themselves, don't be silly.
> 
> ...



I remeber reading a while back that roughly half of Americans don't pay any federal tax, and that a family of four taking in under 50k/yr won't pay any federal taxes. The most affluent in our country, that pay the lion's share of our federal taxes, are international people. We have the second highest corporate tax rate in the world, behind Japan, I believe. The money continues to leave our county for others that don't punish the rich, and they're taking their potential for job creation with them.


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## emt seeking first job (Dec 29, 2010)

*short point on the tax thing*

One of my problems is the futile enforcement of the drug and gambling laws.

If it were legalized and taxed not only generate taxes, contribute to  the economy, but it would reduce cost of expense of fighting the futile drug laws.

http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php

I believe in higher tolls to subsidize mass transit. If I were driving I would happily pay more to have less vehicles on the road.

I dont mean taxing only the rich. In NYC there is a large amount of legal jobs payed off the books, there are also services provided to people in the USA unlawfully.

/sermon


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## emt seeking first job (Dec 29, 2010)

*back tio the storm*

I worked at my volly all day and night yesterday.

We were getting 911 calls on our MARS radio. That NEVER happens.

I saw a rig from Vineland NJ in Brooklyn. One NJ tech, one FDNY tech.

Part of the problem was the roads, the other part the people. People just left cars in the driving lanes of major secondary roads. Vehicles on the road no need. There were furniture delivery trucks everywhere. Even food delivery. Brooklyn has too many food stores. There is enough food even after 2 days everywhere....

One hospital we could not even get to. Some jobs we had to abandon. Other jobs best we could do was get to corner.

I would say it is 1/2 the cities fault, and 1/2 people who should have left there cars where they were and stay home or walk.

Also the idiots shovelling snow from driveway into street. It caused at least one crash.


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## mgr22 (Dec 29, 2010)

emt seeking first job said:


> I would say it is 1/2 the cities fault...



Does that mean you still feel, per your earlier post, that the solution would have been:  (1) "tax a bit more on the upper end"; (2) "run more trains"; and (3) "keep people out of their cars"?

Just asking.


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## 46Young (Dec 29, 2010)

emt seeking first job said:


> One of my problems is the futile enforcement of the drug and gambling laws.
> 
> If it were legalized and taxed not only generate taxes, contribute to  the economy, but it would reduce cost of expense of fighting the futile drug laws.
> 
> ...



I agree that we should legalize and regulate drugs and gambling. Starve the gangs and organized crime of their funding. People are going to get their drugs and find their bookie regardless if it's legal or not.

As far as increasing tolls, please realize that this isn't the norm in many other areas of the country. I didn't realize this until I left NY. Why do I need to pay to get into and out of the city, and even between boroughs in some cases? If I decide to visit family, I need to take the Verrazano into Brooklyn to avoid the eight bucks or whatever. I need to take the Williamsburgh bride >Delancy>Allen>Houston>Varick to the Holland to avoid paying to get out. WTF? We don't visit much for this reason. I shouldn't have to pay that much to pass. I could see a dollar to pass, but eight bucks or so they're demanding is unreasonable. I feel sorry for the residents that need to get between Staten Island and Brooklyn, or The Bronx and Queens. The cost of living is already too high, let alone the numerous tolls. What do you think this and the various taxes on hotels, services, airports, etc do to tourism?

Yes, there are quite a few jobs off the books that could be taxed. I used to work as a Snapple delivery man. It was off the books. There are also plenty of independent distributors that pick up from beverage distributors in a rented box truck and deliver to all the bodegas. What about all the illegals working in the delis? Bouncers? The list goes on and on.


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## 46Young (Dec 29, 2010)

emt seeking first job said:


> Also the idiots shovelling snow from driveway into street. It caused at least one crash.



Where are they supposed to shovel the snow, on top of their cars? I'm not walking back and forth repeatedly halfway down the block with a shovel load of snow to build a pile in the vacant space in front of a fire hydrant or something.


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## emt seeking first job (Dec 29, 2010)

46Young said:


> Where are they supposed to shovel the snow, on top of their cars? I'm not walking back and forth repeatedly halfway down the block with a shovel load of snow to build a pile in the vacant space in front of a fire hydrant or something.




Not everyone HAS to go out the second it stops snowing....

In White Plains, where I used to live, they would fine people for that...


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## emt seeking first job (Dec 29, 2010)

*the thing with tolls*

I have no intention to get into it. The fact of the matter is there are 25 million people in a 75 mile radius of NYC.

There just is not the space for everyone to have a car.

Some people use cars because they are under or not serviced by mass transit.

If there were a better mass transit system, less polution for one thing, less crashes, lower insurance for people who do drive.

People drive flooring the gas, that wastes money....

If someone HAD to drive, like for business,  they would be better off paying a bit more in tolls to fund mass transit, less traffic, save time on the road in traffic.

I think with less crashes and less pollution, health and auto insurance would be cheaper...

Not to mention, less demand for gas, would make it less of a commodity to fight wars over.

I know it sounds directly 'unfair' to have higher tolls and free or lower mass transit, but I am talking big picture.

I am certain a traveling salesman, for example, would happily pay more in tolls if it saved even one hour in traffic each day.

Too many people drive to their static office job....

The congestion is getting more and more insane in the past 20 years..


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## emt seeking first job (Dec 29, 2010)

*the subways*

And the subways should have its own generator and always be kept in service.


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## emt seeking first job (Dec 29, 2010)

*getting back on topic....*

FDNY is calling vollies on the MARS radio for help. That NEVER happens.

Now I know why vollie in NYC 'exist', for the one day they feel they need them.

It was bizarre yesterday.

The crew I was on could not get within five blocks of one job, so the chief decided to respond to another holding call. It became a game of greatist good for the greatest #.

Funny thing is, more than one person at my vollie unit 'hid' from there paying EMS job to work at the vollie.....


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## 46Young (Dec 29, 2010)

emt seeking first job said:


> Not everyone HAS to go out the second it stops snowing....
> 
> In White Plains, where I used to live, they would fine people for that...



How do you fine someone for leaving their home? I've never heard of such an absurdity. But then again, the Federal Gov't wants to fine you if you choose not to have health coverage, so I suppose any liberty is fair game nowadays.


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## 46Young (Dec 29, 2010)

emt seeking first job said:


> I have no intention to get into it. The fact of the matter is there are 25 million people in a 75 mile radius of NYC.
> 
> There just is not the space for everyone to have a car.
> 
> ...


If the residents are unhappy with the increasing overpopulation, excessive taxation and traffic congestion, then they can vote with their feet. They're free to leave. If you move to a major metropolitan area, then you need to expect these things. More and more money leaves NY with each passing year. Meanwhile, the entitlement crowd (mainly welfare, illegals, people working off the books while they get food stamps and subsidized housing, to name a few) continues to grow. It's going to get very ugly in about 20 years, perhaps much sooner. The number of residents that don't contribute to the system, but continue to use resources, will continue to grow. Meanwhle, those that work will continue to have more and more of their money confiscated through taxes, tolls, increased prices of goods and services passed on through regulations, increased fines for traffic and parking, etc. They'll leave if they can, too. How many retirees left for FL, the Carolinas and such? How many of the gainfully employed left the city for LI, upstate, and NJ? 20 years or less. Each individual takes their potential contribution to the local tax, property tax, and contributions to the local economy with them. The more money that's confiscated by the gov't, the less that can be invested, or be used to support the economy and job growth. Unless you believe Pelosi when she said that continued unemployment benefits will stimulate the economy and job growth. Look at California, that's where NY is headed.


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## silver (Dec 30, 2010)

Part of the problem which no one has mentioned yet was that a state of emergency was not called in the city. Meaning that the community and city employees respond differently. People are more likely to go out, and people are less likely to plan on going into a man power pool (unless their boss tells them they have to). Resources were not adequately mobilized and emergency snow routes weren't kept clear of cars.


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## Motojunkie (Dec 30, 2010)

This may have also been part of the problem



> Selfish Sanitation Department bosses from the snow-slammed outer boroughs ordered their drivers to snarl the blizzard cleanup to protest budget cuts -- a disastrous move that turned streets into a minefield for emergency-services vehicles, The Post has learned.
> 
> Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/sanit_filthy_snow_slow_mo_qH57MZwC53QKOJlekSSDJK#ixzz19ckPX0ze


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## 46Young (Dec 31, 2010)

Motojunkie said:


> This may have also been part of the problem



It's too bad that they can't privatize DSNY. If the city were more like other areas of the country, there would be subdivisions, and they could hire their own sanitation & road maitenance for pennies on the dollar. In my subdivision, for example, we pay an annual assessment of around $600. Included in that is our sanitation and road maitenance, among many other things. We have different companies competing for contracts, so they do a really good job. 

These DSNY guys would work around 5 hours a day on the average, and jerk the gherkin for the other three. They don't work hard at all. Now they're doing a work slowdown? We've had a dramatic hiring slowdown in my county in all areas, and also wage/COLA freezes the past two years with dramatic increases in medical insurance premiums. What are these prima donnas complaining about?


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## jjesusfreak01 (Dec 31, 2010)

silver said:


> Part of the problem which no one has mentioned yet was that a state of emergency was not called in the city. Meaning that the community and city employees respond differently. People are more likely to go out, and people are less likely to plan on going into a man power pool (unless their boss tells them they have to). Resources were not adequately mobilized and emergency snow routes weren't kept clear of cars.



Thats true about the resources. Bloomberg pretty much admitted that to cut costs, they didn't do some of the preparation, staging, and extra hiring that they normally would with a storm this big coming through.


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## 46Young (Dec 31, 2010)

jjesusfreak01 said:


> Thats true about the resources. Bloomberg pretty much admitted that to cut costs, they didn't do some of the preparation, staging, and extra hiring that they normally would with a storm this big coming through.



That's the thing. It would be costly to prepare for the worst case scenario each and every year. This is especially true considering that hiring has been depressed due to budget constraints. Here in VA, we had those two winter storms, one of which was the same one that caused that Pittsburgh EMS controversy. Our state gets maybe one of those every ten years, let alone two back to back. The state doesn't keep enough staff and resources to handle that type of incident from year to year, since it would be a waste of money. Regarless, it's naive to think that 20" of snow or such can magically disappear in a day or two. Everyone likes to complain, but I don't seeing everyne on the block pitching in and shoveling each other out, and off the block.


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## jjesusfreak01 (Dec 31, 2010)

46Young said:


> That's the thing. It would be costly to prepare for the worst case scenario each and every year. This is especially true considering that hiring has been depressed due to budget constraints. Here in VA, we had those two winter storms, one of which was the same one that caused that Pittsburgh EMS controversy. Our state gets maybe one of those every ten years, let alone two back to back. The state doesn't keep enough staff and resources to handle that type of incident from year to year, since it would be a waste of money. Regarless, it's naive to think that 20" of snow or such can magically disappear in a day or two. Everyone likes to complain, but I don't seeing everyne on the block pitching in and shoveling each other out, and off the block.



I'm actually referring to prep directly before the storm.


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## Rob123 (Dec 31, 2010)

emt seeking first job said:


> FDNY is calling vollies on the MARS radio for help. That NEVER happens.
> 
> Now I know why vollie in NYC 'exist', for the one day they feel they need them.


FDNY Command thinks Vollies are useless... because they forget that they call during blizzards, MCIs, NYC Marathon and horrific events like 9/11.


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