# New Kansas law allows EMS/FD to concealed carry.



## SandpitMedic (Jul 10, 2016)

http://www.ems1.com/fire-ems/articl...esponders-to-carry-concealed-weapons-on-duty/

Interesting read. While I am half/half on the the subject, I noticed it's only for government employees (city/county/state). No private corporation is going to allow that liability. The last thing they want is some EMT who couldn't get hired by the police department shooting some unarmed black guy on YouTube/CNN.

That'll be the day.


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## kev54 (Jul 10, 2016)

Keep in mind many counties are insured by big insurance companies who will payout when mistakes are made. They may start paying a lot more in premiums or have the policies declined to be renewed because of the huge added liability of firefighters and ems folks carrying firearms. Not to mention it could be completely excluded from coverage so when the firefighter shoots someone the county or city may end up paying a large amount that the county budget probably can't afford but hopefully it can. When a mistake happens it will be very costly economically and politically.


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## cprted (Jul 10, 2016)

> _Bill 2502 allows employees who work for a municipality or state to carry firearms on their person, except inside of school zones or private buildings that are specifically marked as “gun free.”_


So you're carrying as allowed by law and you get a priority call to a "gun free" building ... now what? ... return to quarters to secure your firearm? Leave it in the truck?


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## DesertMedic66 (Jul 10, 2016)

A lockbox in the unit would work easily to secure a firearm. 

I carry 2 shotguns with me everyday to work. To bad they are strapped on my arms...


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## CALEMT (Jul 10, 2016)

DesertMedic66 said:


> A lockbox in the unit would work easily to secure a firearm.
> 
> I carry 2 shotguns with me everyday to work. To bad they are strapped on my arms...



BB guns are ok to bring to work. Real guns however, are not.


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## Summit (Jul 10, 2016)

Let's just mount twin 50s on a turret on top of the ambulance


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## Flying (Jul 10, 2016)

Summit said:


> Let's just mount twin 50s on a turret on top of the ambulance


Third rides will never be the same.


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## Summit (Jul 10, 2016)

Flying said:


> Third rides will never be the same.



40mm auto grenade or remote control 12.7mm machine gun







But I think that it might need some guided missiles or perhaps a tactical nuclear capability... you know... to help wildland FD with controlled burns.


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## SandpitMedic (Jul 10, 2016)

The theme is... It's unnecessary to have a gun in EMS work. I agree. 

However, I worry more about being targeted by some crazy fool out of their mind than I do about patients. Our uniforms also look like PD. Adds to my paranoia.


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## medicsb (Jul 10, 2016)

Only bad things will come of this.  No EMS lives will be saved unless a gun is used to make everyone drive safer or wear a seatbelt.  And I bet you a prosecutor will be far more likely to persecute an EMSer than a cop.  And a jury will be much more likely to convict than they would for a cop.  You'll think you're safer, but you'll be more dangerous and a huge liability to all around you.


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## Summit (Jul 10, 2016)

SandpitMedic said:


> However, I worry more about being targeted by some crazy fool out of their mind than I do about patients. Our uniforms also look like PD. Adds to my paranoia.



Get new uniforms! I don't want my patients thinking I'm The Law. It is hard enough to get them to tell me the truth already!


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## NomadicMedic (Jul 10, 2016)

Summit said:


> Get new uniforms! I don't want my patients thinking I'm The Law. It is hard enough to get them to tell me the truth already!



Agreed. We should all be wearing something hi-viz. I hate wearing a blue uniform that makes me look like a cop.


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## DesertMedic66 (Jul 10, 2016)

We are switching uniforms that make us look more like PD. Not a fan of the black color in the desert but they do look a lot more professional.


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## SandpitMedic (Jul 10, 2016)

Summit said:


> Get new uniforms! I don't want my patients thinking I'm The Law. It is hard enough to get them to tell me the truth already!


I wish
I'd rather wear a navy t-shirt.


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## CALEMT (Jul 10, 2016)

SandpitMedic said:


> I wish
> I'd rather wear a navy t-shirt.



You and everyone else that lives in the desert.


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## joshrunkle35 (Jul 11, 2016)

I don't really worry about patients, what I do worry about, however, are the people who shoot at ambulances because they associate them with "the government" or people who would try to harm someone in the process of trying to steal meds. 

In my state, I carry a gun everywhere, everyday, except when I am on the ambulance. I've done so for the last 12 years. Every day. I don't understand why I am not allowed to protect myself. I have zero desire to protect the meds...let them have them. If they want the truck...that's a situation for the cops. I have zero desire to be a vigilante. But, I believe I have a right to self-preservation, and I carry a gun for the same reason that I have a fire extinguisher. 

I certainly don't plan on fighting fires with a fire extinguisher. I'll let the firefighters do that. It's simply a life saving device, should the incredibly rare possibility that it is needed arise. 

If my state says I'm fine to walk about with a hidden weapon until I suddenly start treating people, then I simply would like to see that the state is equally interested in my right to self-preservation. They should dispatch police to every scene to secure any and all unknowns for me. 

If you think "that's a job for the police", I think, "yeah, I'm fine with that. Just keep one attached to my hip 24/7 and I won't have an issue."


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## NysEms2117 (Jul 11, 2016)

josh i agree with that mostly, i just have one question, would you think it would get in the way of patient care, examples such as moving patients things of that nature(I AM NOT AN EMT YET I HONESTLY DO NOT KNOW). I feel that reaching over a patient would be a potentially crucial situation. Also do you think changing EMS uniforms would help with violence toward EMS personnel? I know when I work carrying open is much easier, because retention is much more controllable, especially due to proper training ect. What licenses  do EMS personnel need to carry?


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## joshrunkle35 (Jul 12, 2016)

NysEms2117 said:


> josh i agree with that mostly, i just have one question, would you think it would get in the way of patient care, examples such as moving patients things of that nature(I AM NOT AN EMT YET I HONESTLY DO NOT KNOW). I feel that reaching over a patient would be a potentially crucial situation. Also do you think changing EMS uniforms would help with violence toward EMS personnel? I know when I work carrying open is much easier, because retention is much more controllable, especially due to proper training ect. What licenses  do EMS personnel need to carry?



Open Carry is a pretty bad idea. It's a combination sign that equally says, "Steal my gun" and "Shoot me first." Additionally, it would probably make half of your patients feel more comfortable and half of them feel less comfortable. We really have a moral duty to put the welfare of our patients first, and that includes their psychological well being. 2am when they're at their worst is not the time to try to educate them about your position on guns or personal safety. 

My post was only in reference to either concealed carry, the chief idea being "concealed". I hang out with friends from work off the job, and they have no clue; why does it suddenly matter if we're discussing something that should remain secured and hidden, and only be revealed in the gravest of circumstances? 

Yes, you can absolutely conceal a full-sized gun in manners that are secured on your body and completely hidden, even in uniform. 

I'm referencing something that the government already allows me to do every day, because they have deemed that the feelings about concealed carry people posing a possible threat to society are just absolute nonsense, and something that I intend to keep just as private as whatever underpants I chose to wear that day. 

Again, I'd be totally cool "leaving the security to the cops", but if that's the case, and my personal security decisions are removed from me and left in someone else's hands, then I want full time 24/7 security, which to me means secured quarters and police escort on every scene and true security screening at all entrances to the ED, including internal hallways.


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## NysEms2117 (Jul 12, 2016)

oh, I wasn't disagreeing i was just asking. I work in LE and was not recommending open carry for you folks, just stating that thats how i carry with work. My main concern was reaching for something and patients seeing the outline or something along those lines, I apologize for any confusion. I honestly wish more civilians carried, but story for another day.


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## Summit (Jul 12, 2016)

@joshrunkle35  what you are asked to do as a medical provider requires your concentration elsewhere while at extreme close quarters with patient(s) where it is just extremely difficult to ensure that they cannot go hands on, grab your weapon, etc.

I'm pretty sure if you are familiar with self-defense you are familiar with the 21ft rule, right? All of our patients and most of our bystanders, including the crazy ones who snap, live WELL inside the 21ft rule! The altered patient doesn't have to actually have to grab your gun and shoot someone for it to be a bad day. Simply grabbing your weapon would probaby not be good for your agency's image or your employment status. So while I'm very pro-CCW, I am not for on-duty medical professionals (except tactical medics).

So call for those police responses. I did when I had even the slightest thought in the back of my mind. And remember that you are far more likely to by killed or injured in a traffic accident on duty than in an on-duty self-defense situation where a personal pistol would make a difference (which you've identified as the random anti-authority type taking pot shots at you, but with a pistol, because your pistol won't be worth much against a long arm at distance).


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## SandpitMedic (Jul 12, 2016)

I think in an EMS uniform there would be printing at some point during movements of and/or around patients; with the exception of an ankle rig with something small like a small .22, .38, or a single stack 9mm. Full size, no way. I'd be content with 5 rounds for self defense since I'm not planning on "being a vigilante." 

So, with that... I think, as Josh said, that some could carry a firearm, BUT the vast majority could not. While your view may be, let them have the drugs- let them have the truck... Others will not share that mindset. Josh is a person who understands the concept behind concealed carry- it is hidden, from everyone, until it is required (usually never). That's great- off duty. 

The hard truth is, and this may be a hard pill to swallow, I wouldn't trust most of you on this very site with a can of pepper spray let alone a firearm. Let alone all the muckety mucks out there on the EMS streets. No ****ing way. They are just as likely - scratch that - MORE likely to accidentally shoot me or have an ND than for it to be of use beneficially in deescalating a situation. Furthermore, for most people, especially the know-it-all, paragod, tough guy, testosterone driven, 9/11 hero syndrome 23 year old in EMS- that gun on his hip changes his psyche to actually drive him to enter into or escalate a hostile situation that he otherwise would not. To put it another words, he would be more emboldened to initiate or increase the likelihood of a conflict rather than deter one or shy away from one. 

When you carry, your first option should be to escape. Your mindset should be to avoid conflict, not seek it out. In EMS, conflict finds you- and that's no place for an amateur with a pistol and a "save-the-world" complex. And frankly that is (generously) 50/50 in EMS. Sorry to say; we get some wackos. If I need the police, I'll call the police. 

I carry everywhere I go off the job, and I know how to use my weapons, and I am lightly familiar with combat tactics and how to close with and engage an enemy, get off the "x", find cover, etc etc.... But even I wouldn't bring my gun into an ambulance. 999,999/1,000,000 times it will do more harm than good. We don't need it- and no one before you in an ambulance did either. There are other ways to evade conflict and to protect yourself.


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## NysEms2117 (Jul 12, 2016)

quick quest sandpit, well 2 of them actually. 1. Should EMS uniforms be changed to not look as "policey"? 2. Do you think it should be a thing like the UK has with their police where its 1 out of every 15 officers or a number of that sort carry. So would your dep chief thats working that day carry and respond to the potentially hostile scenes. I understand you cannot tell if a scene will turn bad, but using judgement (GSW calls, stabbings, ect)

Edit: i do agree that a m&p bodyguard or something of that sort around the ankle would be the best route


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## Summit (Jul 12, 2016)

If it is a potentially bad scene, I was a PD response, not an armed EMS supervisor.


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## CALEMT (Jul 12, 2016)

SandpitMedic said:


> There are other ways to evade conflict and to protect yourself.



Such as common sense and situational awareness.


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## Summit (Jul 12, 2016)

I worked with ugly mauve polos, definitely didn't like a  cop. I like how white shirts look, very professional, but what a pain to keep clean. I've seen some bright blue with yellow EMS markings that are very clearly not LEO.

I like the high viz.

Ambulance Uniforms around the world:

British Columbia






India





Australia





Europe EMS Expo





India Again





Germany





Australia again





France





More France





NZ





Italy


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## NysEms2117 (Jul 12, 2016)

i think that UK germany and just Europe in generally are how EMS should be(uniform wise, no idea how EMS system actually is). Where there is 0 doubt that you are LE, a nice shirt like that some uneducated anti gov't people will still think it (in my opinion). Thank you for your input


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## nightmoves123 (Jul 13, 2016)

There are plenty of countries in the world with much more violent crime than the US, and those places haven't deemed it necessary to arm their paramedics.

When EMS departments begin to enforce mandatory wearing of body armor and helmets at all times on duty, then I might start questioning the requirement for weaponry. And even then I'd probably be requesting armored ambulances before I'd ask for a weapon.


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## SandpitMedic (Jul 13, 2016)

I don't have an opinion on uniforms other than I want a navy t shirt.
I don't think one armed medic with captain bars at HQ, or wherever, is a deterant nor effective. It's not necessary. Stay alert, call the cops, scene safety.


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## MJG (Jul 13, 2016)

Summit said:


> I worked with ugly mauve polos, definitely didn't like a  cop. I like how white shirts look, very professional, but what a pain to keep clean. I've seen some bright blue with yellow EMS markings that are very clearly not LEO.
> 
> I like the high viz.
> 
> ...


Sorry to interrupt - but i`m afraid, what you posted under "Germany" is not what German EMS uniforms look like at all. From the license plates and the uniforms I would also guess that this photo has been taken either a couple of years ago in Hungary or the Czech Republic.
German EMS uniforms mostly look like the orange one you posted under Europe EMS expo.
The green NZ type is quite common in the UK as well - a type of uniform that looks both professional and has a good visibility. It also has a clear connection to a general EMS theme.

cheers!


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## Summit (Jul 13, 2016)

MJG said:


> Sorry to interrupt - but i`m afraid, what you posted under "Germany" is not what German EMS uniforms look like at all. From the license plates and the uniforms I would also guess that this photo has been taken either a couple of years ago in Hungary or the Czech Republic.
> German EMS uniforms mostly look like the orange one you posted under Europe EMS expo.
> The green NZ type is quite common in the UK as well - a type of uniform that looks both professional and has a good visibility. It also has a clear connection to a general EMS theme.
> 
> cheers!


Thank you for clearing that up!


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## Carlos Danger (Jul 13, 2016)

nightmoves123 said:


> There are plenty of countries in the world with much more violent crime than the US, and those places haven't deemed it necessary to arm their paramedics.



Except that's not really what this is about. No one is advocating for "armed medics". 

There is a big difference between "arming" the paramedics and simply removing prohibitions that disallow an otherwise qualified CCP holder (who happens to be employed as a paramedic) from carrying their weapon while at work.


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## SandpitMedic (Jul 13, 2016)

I think the main prohibition would be policies of an employer, whether public or private.

A CCW holder is not prevented by law (in most cases) from carrying at work. That's a policy decision. 

The goal is for no one to know you have it, until such a time when that becomes irrelevant and your life is in danger. Theoretically there are medics out there who are packing, and you just don't know it.


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## NysEms2117 (Jul 13, 2016)

the only issue that may interfere with work, is GUN FREE ZONES, because as we all know, they are the safest places on the earth. Example if a postal worker had something wrong or a place where you cannot bring a firearm. Or entering a school zone, you would have to delay patient care to secure your firearm at an appropriate place.


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## nightmoves123 (Jul 13, 2016)

Remi said:


> Except that's not really what this is about. No one is advocating for "armed medics".
> 
> There is a big difference between "arming" the paramedics and simply removing prohibitions that disallow an otherwise qualified CCP holder (who happens to be employed as a paramedic) from carrying their weapon while at work.


 
True, good point


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## Tigger (Jul 13, 2016)

We are currently debating changing over to Polos to look less like cops (though more and more cops are wearing polos?). I don't feel like the uniform has much to do with being targeted. Yes, EMS providers have been shot and killed while on scene, but I do not see the uniform looking like the police as having much to do with that. Many of these acts were preplanned ambush, no uniform is going to change that shooter's mind. We wear blue button downs with badges, and do bare a passing resemblance to police, which I have only ever found to be helpful really. People are inclined to look at the most put together people for leadership and we fill that role in part because we look like we know what we are doing. This is something we hear from patients too.

As for allowing licensed CCW holders to carry, I still don't how I feel. The back of an ambulance is a very confined space.


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## SandpitMedic (Jul 13, 2016)

NysEms2117 said:


> the only issue that may interfere with work, is GUN FREE ZONES, because as we all know, they are the safest places on the earth. Example if a postal worker had something wrong or a place where you cannot bring a firearm. Or entering a school zone, you would have to delay patient care to secure your firearm at an appropriate place.


I disagree... If I'm carrying on duty, and no one knows... I'm bringing that thing everywhere unless there is a metal detector... In which case we would likely not even be forced to go into it. We go into prisons and jails all the time- no pat downs... Just a truck search (a poor one).


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## NysEms2117 (Jul 13, 2016)

Does not change that it's illegal... Unless you also happen to be a federal agents all post offices and school zones are gun free zones. Again I don't make the laws sadly . 


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## SandpitMedic (Jul 13, 2016)

I understand that. But no one is checking me.... And if I'm taking it out, I'm using it, to save my life- at that point it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

This is a hypothetical, as I do not currently carry on the job. Should the hostile climate increase or EMS be targeted like LE, I will reevaluate that choice. As of now I don't think EMS should be introducing firearms into EMS situations, and I can count on one hand the EMS folks I know out of hundreds that I would trust to even if it were allowed.


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## NysEms2117 (Jul 13, 2016)

I completely understand and agree whole heartedly I feel civilians should defend themselves, save police for extreme. Just wanted to make sure the waters were clear with the law. Again I'd do the same if I were in your shoes. Thanks for your service 


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## Tigger (Jul 14, 2016)

NysEms2117 said:


> I completely understand and agree whole heartedly I feel civilians should defend themselves, save police for extreme. Just wanted to make sure the waters were clear with the law. Again I'd do the same if I were in your shoes. Thanks for your service
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is exactly my issue with EMS providers having CCWs. We need to have a much lower threshold for getting LE involved and prevent situations from getting out of hand. Having a weapon on the ambulance should have nothing to do with when LE gets involved.


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## Carlos Danger (Jul 14, 2016)

SandpitMedic said:


> The hard truth is, and this may be a hard pill to swallow, I wouldn't trust most of you on this very site with a can of pepper spray let alone a firearm. Let alone all the muckety mucks out there on the EMS streets. No ****ing way. *They are just as likely - scratch that - MORE likely to accidentally shoot me or have an ND than for it to be of use beneficially in deescalating a situation.* Furthermore, for most people, especially the know-it-all, paragod, tough guy, testosterone driven, 9/11 hero syndrome 23 year old in EMS- that gun on his hip changes his psyche to actually drive him to enter into or escalate a hostile situation that he otherwise would not. *To put it another words, he would be more emboldened to initiate or increase the likelihood of a conflict rather than deter one or shy away from one. *



I think this fear is way overblown. If it were permissible for paramedics to carry on duty, you'd have the same people carrying on ambulances who already carry everywhere they go in public already. Every CCP holder I know takes the responsibility very seriously and has a realistic grasp of what it means. And I'm not aware of CCP holders in general being a trouble-seeking bunch or being statistically any more likely to be involved in a violent scenario. Personally, I'm more averse to conflict when I have my gun in my truck (I find myself thinking twice about how I react when someone cuts me off, for instance), because my biggest fear is finding myself in a heated situation where I feel threatened and my gun gets involved unnecessarily. The idea that having a gun around means gun violence is more likely is the essence of all of the anti-gun crowd's arguments, and their arguments have all been disproven repeatedly.   

I'm not a fan of the idea of "armed paramedics" any more than anyone else, but a paramedic who also happens to be a responsible CCP holder carrying a small weapon discretely and only using it in the same type of situation on duty as he would off duty is hard to argue against, I think. I think every human has an innate right to self-defense that no one else can justly interfere with, and I don't think that right should have to be checked at the door to the post office or the school or the ambulance bay where you work.


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## Summit (Jul 14, 2016)

Remi said:


> And I'm not aware of CCP holders in general being a trouble-seeking bunch or being statistically any more likely to be involved in a violent scenario.


From my reading, statistically CCW permit holders are involved with less trouble than the average citizen, and have criminal conviction rates similar to LEOs.


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## SandpitMedic (Jul 14, 2016)

Correct. 
I concur.

I was speaking about just arming any old body because they are in EMS. Like Kansas just did, for their government EMS/FD folks, regardless of them being CCW holders.


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## Carlos Danger (Jul 14, 2016)

SandpitMedic said:


> Correct.
> I concur.
> 
> I was speaking about just arming any old body because they are in EMS. Like Kansas just did, for their government EMS/FD folks, regardless of them being CCW holders.


Ha ha. I probably should have read the article in question.


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## ThePants (Aug 3, 2016)

My volunteer fire service had to issue a proclamation a few years back, that carrying weapons either on the engines or to a scene via pov were verboten.  I'm all for it. The matter of having a firearm at close quarters with a violent patient is pretty scary.  I really don't like the idea of a 5150 grabbing mine or my partner's concealed carry and putting every responder on scene at risk.  The statistical outcome, if they discover your weapon and/or you feel the need to pull it, is that it will be taken from you and some other EMS unit will get called to stage for a GSW.  If I arrive on a scene, I'll expect it to be safe before I do a good goddamn thing.  My partner carrying, especially if it is unbeknownst to me, is a perfect example of an unsafe scene.

At the close quarters that we're expected to work with unpredictable patients, the statistically more effective self-defense is knowing a couple of well practiced breaks, holds, and come alongs.


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## ViolynEMT (Aug 3, 2016)

I carry a water gun. If someone is a little hot under the collar, I shoot them in the neck.


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## Tigger (Aug 3, 2016)

Recently ran a mutual aid call with a little volly fire district. One of their personnel was walking around on scene open carrying a 1911 with no sort of retention holster along with a self defense knife jutting off his hip and a few spare magazines. Oh and a badge too denoting him as part of an incident management team (in a county of 20k, we don't have that kind of thing). 

And there we are, on scene of a suicide with a hysterical family and this dude is walking around adding additional risk to what is already a volatile scene. We have no idea what his training is (we run fairly often with them) and I have no doubt it makes patients and questions uncomfortable. And the department apparently endorses it, which is just awesome.


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## CALEMT (Aug 3, 2016)

Tigger said:


> open carrying a 1911 with no sort of retention holster along with a self defense knife jutting off his hip and a few spare magazines.



Like a boss.


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## MackTheKnife (Aug 14, 2016)

ThePants said:


> My volunteer fire service had to issue a proclamation a few years back, that carrying weapons either on the engines or to a scene via pov were verboten.  I'm all for it. The matter of having a firearm at close quarters with a violent patient is pretty scary.  I really don't like the idea of a 5150 grabbing mine or my partner's concealed carry and putting every responder on scene at risk.  The statistical outcome, if they discover your weapon and/or you feel the need to pull it, is that it will be taken from you and some other EMS unit will get called to stage for a GSW.  If I arrive on a scene, I'll expect it to be safe before I do a good goddamn thing.  My partner carrying, especially if it is unbeknownst to me, is a perfect example of an unsafe scene.
> 
> At the close quarters that we're expected to work with unpredictable patients, the statistically more effective self-defense is knowing a couple of well practiced breaks, holds, and come alongs.


If your partner is carrying concealed, how would you know and how would it be unsafe?

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## ThePants (Aug 15, 2016)

MackTheKnife said:


> If your partner is carrying concealed, how would you know and how would it be unsafe?



Sorry?  I thought I explained that.


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## Carlos Danger (Aug 15, 2016)

ThePants said:


> Sorry?  I thought I explained that.


No, you didn't


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## MackTheKnife (Aug 15, 2016)

ThePants said:


> Sorry?  I thought I explained that.


Actually, you said "unbeknownst to me"

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## ThePants (Aug 16, 2016)

MackTheKnife said:


> Actually, you said "unbeknownst to me"
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Ah. That part. Okay. 

If I'm aware of my partner carrying, then I have an opportunity to convince her/him not to.  Failing that, as law allows, I would have an opportunity to choose to arm myself as well or request another partner.

If I have arrived on scene, assessed scene safety, and determined there are no weapons on our around the patient, then I can attempt to assist the patient.  Operating under the false assumption of a safe scene would endanger my health.  Should the patient discover, through physical contact that is sometimes necessary with health care providers under emergency circumstances, that my partner is packing a firearm, then this provides the patient with an option of arming themselves.  No amount of checking for scene safety on my part is sufficient to counteract this danger.

It would seem logical to arm medics in an open combat situation, where the health care provider would, for the most part, be treating friendly soldiers.

I'm not opposed to 2nd amendment rights.  In fact, I support the logic and intention of both our Constitution and the bill of rights as documents that are intended to protect our freedoms and security.  I do, however, question the wisdom of arming first responders.   This is my opinion, and it should be taken as such.


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## MackTheKnife (Aug 16, 2016)

ThePants said:


> Ah. That part. Okay.
> 
> If I'm aware of my partner carrying, then I have an opportunity to convince her/him not to.  Failing that, as law allows, I would have an opportunity to choose to arm myself as well or request another partner.
> 
> ...


Completely understand your position. I also agree there is room to question arming first responders. As an ardent 2nd Amendment supporter, I can see carrying. On the other hand, carrying concealed in this situation would be difficult at best. The two main options would be pocket carry or ankle carry. These are not the best options in the least.

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## DrParasite (Aug 17, 2016)

ThePants said:


> If I'm aware of my partner carrying, then I have an opportunity to convince her/him not to.  Failing that, as law allows, I would have an opportunity to choose to arm myself as well or request another partner.


For the record, I never carried on the ambulance.  Also for the record, if I did carry, I would not draw my weapon until I felt my life or my partners life was in imminent danger.  Finally, if I did chose to arm myself, you couldn't convince me not to, and if you wanted to arms yourself, I would give you suggestions on what to do.  and if you wanted another partner, go for it.


ThePants said:


> If I have arrived on scene, assessed scene safety, and determined there are no weapons on our around the patient, then I can attempt to assist the patient.  Operating under the false assumption of a safe scene would endanger my health.


  Newsflash.... the scene is never 100% safe.  Further, just because the cops are on scene doesn't guarantee it's safe.  regardless of what you were told in EMT class, scene can go from safe to not safe with little warning.  So I would argue that you are constantly "Operating under the false assumption of a safe scene."


ThePants said:


> Should the patient discover, through physical contact that is sometimes necessary with health care providers under emergency circumstances, that my partner is packing a firearm, then this provides the patient with an option of arming themselves.  No amount of checking for scene safety on my part is sufficient to counteract this danger.


following this logic, law enforcement officers should never be packing firearms, as they are more likely to get involved in physical confrontations than EMS workers, due to the nature of their job.  Again, it's your logic, not mine.

If I were to carry, I am less concern for the patient getting ahold of my concealed firearm, and more worried about responding to the sick person call in the projects, where some upstanding member of the bloods or crips recognizes me as the guy who failed to save the life his buddy who was shot 3 times, and now wants to even the score.  And BTW, he won't be needing to take my gun, as he already has his own.  But I have also seen certain people behave better simply because there was someone with a gun on their hip, just in case it was needed.


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## ThePants (Aug 17, 2016)

DrParasite said:


> For the record, I never carried on the ambulance.  Also for the record, if I did carry, I would not draw my weapon until I felt my life or my partners life was in imminent danger.  Finally, if I did chose to arm myself, you couldn't convince me not to, and if you wanted to arms yourself, I would give you suggestions on what to do.  and if you wanted another partner, go for it.
> Newsflash.... the scene is never 100% safe.  Further, just because the cops are on scene doesn't guarantee it's safe.  regardless of what you were told in EMT class, scene can go from safe to not safe with little warning.  So I would argue that you are constantly "Operating under the false assumption of a safe scene."
> following this logic, law enforcement officers should never be packing firearms, as they are more likely to get involved in physical confrontations than EMS workers, due to the nature of their job.  Again, it's your logic, not mine.
> 
> If I were to carry, I am less concern for the patient getting ahold of my concealed firearm, and more worried about responding to the sick person call in the projects, where some upstanding member of the bloods or crips recognizes me as the guy who failed to save the life his buddy who was shot 3 times, and now wants to even the score.  And BTW, he won't be needing to take my gun, as he already has his own.  But I have also seen certain people behave better simply because there was someone with a gun on their hip, just in case it was needed.



Our job is never a safe one.  The idea of a safe scene is to minimize the dangerous variables to a manageable and approachable level.  I'll not deny that carrying a weapon to a medical or fire response has its positive aspects, but in my estimation the benefits do not outweigh the distraction and potential hazard.

I realize that I am taking a controversial stance on an emotional topic.  I don't intend to make a crusade on the issue, nor attempt to change anyone's opinion of the matter.  I also don't intend to defend the minute details, nor complete a philosophical or statistical essay that is complete and referenced with historical research. 

I repeat that it is an opinion.  I see that you have your own, and that it differs from mine.  Cool beans.


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## Nick Gawriluk (Aug 25, 2016)

Someone once told me "don't be part of the emergency." He was old school and I kind of snickered at his comment. This post brought that comment to mind.


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## ThePants (Aug 25, 2016)

Nick Gawriluk said:


> Someone once told me "don't be part of the emergency." He was old school and I kind of snickered at his comment. This post brought that comment to mind.



Heh.  That's part of our ongoing training.  'Don't be the call.'


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## Tigger (Aug 25, 2016)

DrParasite said:


> following this logic, law enforcement officers should never be packing firearms, as they are more likely to get involved in physical confrontations than EMS workers, due to the nature of their job.  Again, it's your logic, not mine.


Law enforcement gets much more training on weapon retention than the typical concealed carry holder. I am not sure I trust the average citizen to retain a handgun in the close quarters of an ambulance fight once it is drawn. "But I won't pull it unless I am outside the bus aiming in." Are you sure you can guarantee that, and guarantee you don't shoot your partner?



> If I were to carry, I am less concern for the patient getting ahold of my concealed firearm, and more worried about responding to the sick person call in the projects, where some upstanding member of the bloods or crips recognizes me as the guy who failed to save the life his buddy who was shot 3 times, and now wants to even the score.  And BTW, he won't be needing to take my gun, as he already has his own.  But I have also seen certain people behave better simply because there was someone with a gun on their hip, just in case it was needed.


This seems like a bit of an absurd scenario. When (if) that guy comes to even the score, you're concealed weapon probably isn't going to be much help.


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## ronbach (Sep 29, 2016)

I am an armed security officer and an EMT in a high end community so I do treat pts while armed open carrying.

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## SandpitMedic (Sep 30, 2016)

ronbach said:


> I am an armed security officer and an EMT in a high end community so I do treat pts while armed open carrying.
> 
> Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk


You're not working for an EMS agency.
Different story altogether.


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## ronbach (Sep 30, 2016)

im under a medical director but yeah i suppose its different. Im in regular contact with the residesnts who i may be treating and they are used to us being armed. If i was working for a regular agency however I dont think EMS should be armed. 

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