# Do you pack heat?



## SanDiegoEmt7 (Oct 25, 2010)

I'm considering purchasing a pistol and/or a shotgun, for target practice and home defense.  Given the nature of our job, what's your stance on owning firearms?


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## Harvey (Oct 25, 2010)

Well a Firearm for home defense is never a bad idea. or even with a concealed handgun license. just remember safety first. And if your wanting to help people while "packing Heat" you should look into becoming a Police Officer. There is another thread on this. I dunno why EMS would need Firepower. that would prolley only cause more problems.


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## EMS/LEO505 (Oct 25, 2010)

I carry mine everywhere except a liquior establishment and public schools haha as for my house, I don't have an alarm system....I've got my 2 german shepards, my giant schnauzer, and a H&K USP Elite...and a little more


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## TransportJockey (Oct 25, 2010)

I have a NM CCW and carry everywhere not prohibited by law.

EDIT: No not while working. While I'm on the bus, it stays in a lockbox in my vehicle. EMS doesn't need to be carrying on duty. Besides, if I ever discharge the pistol, the thermonuclear blast created by the 10mm Auto cartridge might tend to make my bosses unhappy if I vaporize an ambulance


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## Harvey (Oct 25, 2010)

While Working?


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## CAO (Oct 25, 2010)

Carry a Glock 22 when I'm not working.


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## JPINFV (Oct 25, 2010)

I am a complete supporter of shall issue conceal carry permits and against unarmed victim... err... "gun free zones." However, I also think there's a time and a place for conceal carry and working as an EMS provider is a time to not carry. I have, however, no problem with someone carrying on their comute to or from work, especially if employees have a secure location on site for storing personal affects (i.e. a locker).


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## Shishkabob (Oct 25, 2010)

I have a Mosin Nagant.  I carry it with me on shift with the bayonet attached.  No one has made a scene about it yet.  h34r:


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## fast65 (Oct 25, 2010)

I do own quite a few firearms (11 to be exact), mostly for trap shooting and hunting, but I see absolutely no reason why EMS providers would need to carry firearms on duty. However, I do live in Oregon, so I don't have any idea what EMS is like in large urban areas


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## Bullets (Oct 25, 2010)

i keep my glock 22 in a holster shirt at all times. Ive been on shooting scenes where we begin to treat a victim and receive fire from opposing gang members trying to finish the pt off. i applied for my CC next day


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## johnrsemt (Oct 25, 2010)

I have CCW and carry off duty and off base.

  I used to work in an area with high crime rate;  both in EMS and in Retail.  never wanted to carry at either job.    that is what police are for, and besides by the time I found out I was in a situation that a gun would have been good for, it was too late, and someone was already holding one on me.


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## Akulahawk (Oct 25, 2010)

I have applied (and have been approved) for a California CCW License. I will carry wherever I legally may carry. While working, if I do carry, it is an offense that is punishable by termination... but it is NOT contrary to state law. I need my job, therefore I won't carry while actually on-duty at work.


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## JPINFV (Oct 25, 2010)

Akulahawk said:


> I have applied (and have been approved) for a California CCW License.



Glares. Knowing LA Co and SD Co, my chances are slim to none. Even so, if I did get a CCW, I'm mostly in one of 2 places. Home (where I don't need a CCW permit to carry, be it open or concealed) or school (where I would need permission from the school to carry anyways, which is unlikely).


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## lampnyter (Oct 25, 2010)

Im not even old enough to get a license lol. I think its 21 here, 3 more years. And i didnt think you could carry while on duty.


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## 46Young (Oct 25, 2010)

It's no coincedence that govenrments or regions that either ban or severely restrict the ability to carry have higher crime rates. When most everyone carries, no one gets robbed. When you're made to give up your guns, you have rape, muggings, car jackings, and a husband bound and gagged in the living room of their house while the perps violate the wife and daughter.

We need to prepare for the soon to come rapid devaluation of the American dollar. I recommend investing in as much gold, ammo, and whiskey you can get your hands on. Also, keep a large stock of non perishables, as much as you can, and then rotate your stock as you use supplies. That case of powdered milk or beans may cost five times as much next year. Also, go out and buy a house real quick, w/ a fixed rate mortgage. Real estate is the best hedge against inflation. A generator for your home, and one of those hand crank cell phone chargers would be good to have items as well.

I'm only half kidding with the above.


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## TransportJockey (Oct 25, 2010)

46Young said:


> It's no coincedence that govenrments or regions that either ban or severely restrict the ability to carry have higher crime rates. When most everyone carries, no one gets robbed. When you're made to give up your guns, you have rape, muggings, car jackings, and a husband bound and gagged in the living room of their house while the perps violate the wife and daughter.
> 
> We need to prepare for the soon to come rapid devaluation of the American dollar. I recommend investing in as much gold, ammo, and whiskey you can get your hands on. Also, keep a large stock of non perishables, as much as you can, and then rotate your stock as you use supplies. That case of powdered milk or beans may cost five times as much next year. Also, go out and buy a house real quick, w/ a fixed rate mortgage. Real estate is the best hedge against inflation. A generator for your home, and one of those hand crank cell phone chargers would be good to have items as well.
> 
> I'm only half kidding with the above.



That post looks almost exactly like a lot of posts I've come to see on glocktalk the last few years.


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## LucidResq (Oct 25, 2010)

Bullets said:


> i keep my glock 22 in a holster shirt at all times. Ive been on shooting scenes where we begin to treat a victim and receive fire from opposing gang members trying to finish the pt off. i applied for my CC next day



A) scene safety
B ) let the cops do what they're trained and paid to do and return the fire
C) if the above measures fail, bullet proof vest

Of course cops/scene safety/a vest won't always prevent you from getting wounded/killed... there's always going to be that 1 in a million call that comes in as a routine sick case but turns out to be a GSW and then the perpetrators swing by and "finish the job" and you as well... but I'm pretty sure you're actually putting yourself at more risk carrying on the job... not just for injury/death by having your weapon turned on you, but also in the repercussions of using your weapon. 

There's a big difference between shooting someone who comes in to your home while you're off-duty sleeping, and shooting someone you encounter on the streets or even in their home while on-duty. Cops have mistakenly shot people for pulling out soda cans and squirt pistols on them, and faced the music for that. They didn't, however, have to start off by answering the burning question "why are you carrying a gun as an EMT/paramedic?"


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## lampnyter (Oct 25, 2010)

taser FTW lol


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## TransportJockey (Oct 25, 2010)

lampnyter said:


> taser FTW lol



That will still get you fired at the very least by most services.


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## JPINFV (Oct 25, 2010)

lampnyter said:


> taser FTW lol



Tasers are virtually useless outside of LEO. Single shot, limited effect. You shoot someone with a taser and you better hit on the first shot because that's all you've got, and you better hope he stays down after the first set of shocks end or else your entire attention is going to be fixed on pulling that trigger every 5 seconds or so.

On the other hand, if you pull a hand gun and shoot someone, you're going to cause damage that isn't just going to end in 5 seconds. Additionally, that hole you just placed can put someone down for a long time, if not permanent (and if you're drawing a fire arm, you are shooting to end the threat, which with a lethal weapon is a nice way of saying shoot to kill. There is no such thing as just shooting to wound). Bad guy goes down, maybe permanently, and I can shift my attention to the other bad guys.


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## Symbolic (Oct 25, 2010)

46Young said:


> It's no coincedence that govenrments or regions that either ban or severely restrict the ability to carry have higher crime rates. When most everyone carries, no one gets robbed. When you're made to give up your guns, you have rape, muggings, car jackings, and a husband bound and gagged in the living room of their house while the perps violate the wife and daughter.




I don't mean to come off as a hippy or anything, but truthfully, how often do we really hear of instances when carrying/owning a weapon was actually beneficial in a time of dire circumstances? I think we see more instances were gun owners children get a hold of their weapons and kill themselves, or gun owners shoot themselves while "playing" with their guns, then times when they were actually beneficial against crime.

Also, where do you think the majority of weapons used In crime come from? They are stolen or sold from gun owners. If the gun owner population goes down, the instances were guns are acquired to use In crime goes down.

Obviously some weapons are smuggled from other parts of the world, but we really don't have to dig too deep into the obvious in regards to crime statistics in other areas of the world. We have more murders in a day than some countries have in a year. It all goes back to Americans infatuation with Guns and their "constitutional right to bear arms."

Some interesting statistics. US ranked number 4 in regards to gun fatalities. The countries above them, are not nearly as advanced as we are. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms


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## TransportJockey (Oct 25, 2010)

Symbolic said:


> I don't mean to come off as a hippy or anything, but truthfully, how often do we really hear of instances when carrying/owning a weapon was actually beneficial in a time of dire circumstances? I think we see more instances were gun owners children get a hold of their weapons and kill themselves, or gun owners shoot themselves while "playing" with their guns, then times when they were actually beneficial against crime.
> 
> Also, where do you think the majority of weapons used In crime come from? They are stolen or sold from gun owners. If the gun owner population goes down, the instances were guns are acquired to use In crime goes down.
> 
> Obviously some weapons are smuggled from other parts of the world, but we really don't have to dig too deep into the obvious in regards to crime statistics in other areas of the world. We have more murders in a day than some countries have in a year. It all goes back to Americans infatuation with Guns and their "constitutional right to bear arms."



Look at statistics in Australia from before their gun restrictions to now. Same with GB. If guns are banned, criminals will still manage to get them for a time, one way or another. I can think of one pretty high profile story in ABQ, NM a few years back of a legal CCWer that used his carry weapon to defend a woman who worked at the Wal-Mart he was at from her crazy ex (or maybe current, not sure) boyfriend/husband. I know of a few places in the same city where if there was a CCWer, certain shootings most likely wouldn't have been as bad as they were. 
Although ABQ also has tons of OCers (I was one for the longest time) too, so a criminal seeing an openly carried gun tends to rethink things.
EDIT: In response to your edit. Compare the relative populations of the countries listed below and above us. We're actually not doing too bad on a statistical point of view. And I'd love to see where Mexico ranks with the absolute newest numbers. (The numbers on that site are from 2002)


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## Symbolic (Oct 25, 2010)

jtpaintball70 said:


> Look at statistics in Australia from before their gun restrictions to now. Same with GB. If guns are banned, criminals will still manage to get them for a time, one way or another. I can think of one pretty high profile story in ABQ, NM a few years back of a legal CCWer that used his carry weapon to defend a woman who worked at the Wal-Mart he was at from her crazy ex (or maybe current, not sure) boyfriend/husband. I know of a few places in the same city where if there was a CCWer, certain shootings most likely wouldn't have been as bad as they were.
> Although ABQ also has tons of OCers (I was one for the longest time) too, so a criminal seeing an openly carried gun tends to rethink things.
> EDIT: In response to your edit. Compare the relative populations of the countries listed below and above us. We're actually not doing too bad on a statistical point of view. And I'd love to see where Mexico ranks with the absolute newest numbers. (The numbers on that site are from 2002)



Regardless of how old the stats are, they will remain fairly consistent and have remained consistent. The U.S will always rank high. I think your overlooking the obvious and I wouldn't expect anything less of a response from a gun advocate. I fail to see the correlation and never will. 

If everyone was carrying a weapon, crime would not decrease.. It would be more of an excuse for a gun toting redneck to shoot you cause you looked at him wrong. Would you think twice before stealing someones car.. Yes of course, but you can't just blast someone for stealing your car. In most states its even illegal to shoot someone if they just stole your belongings and raped your wife and was retreating off your property..

So even if everyone carried guns, the laws would still apply, resulting in more instances of deaths that occurred from gun owners "thinking they had the right to self defense"


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## JPINFV (Oct 25, 2010)

Symbolic said:


> I don't mean to come off as a hippy or anything, but truthfully, how often do we really hear of instances when carrying/owning a weapon was actually beneficial in a time of dire circumstances?


There's a few ways to look at that.
How many incidents where a gun is drawn to end, say, a robbery goes unreported?

Herd immunity. Areas with higher gun ownership have less crimes because the bad guys don't know who is armed. If you're going to mug someone, are you going to do it in an area where there's a higher probability that your victim is armed? 


> I think we see more instances were gun owners children get a hold of their weapons and kill themselves, or gun owners shoot themselves while "playing" with their guns, then times when they were actually beneficial against crime.


First off, Darwin at work. If someone is storing a fire arm, especially a loaded one, in a manner that is easily accessible, then they are violating the basic rules of safe gun handling. Similarly, if someone is cleaning a fire arm without first clearing it, then they are violating the rules of safe gun handling. Should we ban cars because of cruddy drivers? 



> Also, where do you think the majority of weapons used In crime come from? They are stolen or sold from gun owners. If the gun owner population goes down, the instances were guns are acquired to use In crime goes down.
> 
> Obviously some weapons are smuggled from other parts of the world, but we really don't have to dig too deep into the obvious in regards to crime statistics in other areas of the world. We have more murders in a day than some countries have in a year. It all goes back to Americans infatuation with Guns and their "constitutional right to bear arms."


...because crimes can only be committed with fire arms? Additionally, any data that isn't per-capita is useless to look at. 



> Some interesting statistics. US ranked number 4 in regards to gun fatalities. The countries above them, are not nearly as advanced as we are. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms


Anything that is, at the very least, not per-capita is useless. It's not really amazing or hard to understand why a large country is going to have more crime than a small country when looking at just the raw numbers.


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## JPINFV (Oct 25, 2010)

Symbolic said:


> If everyone was carrying a weapon, crime would not decrease.. It would be more of an excuse for a gun toting redneck to shoot you cause you looked at him wrong.



Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you wanted a serious conversation.


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## Symbolic (Oct 25, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you wanted a serious conversation.



It is a serious conversation. I think most fail to realize what constitutes self defense. An individual who steals your belongings is not a candidate for a bullet. You will be punished and charged for murder in most states. As stated earlier, even if an intruder broke into your home and violated your wife, but was on the retreat outside of your property, again, you can and will be charged with murder.

Another hypothetical. You are walking solo down an ally and a guy pulls out a weapon that appeared to be a gun and you shoot him. You are charged with murder because A.) there were no witnesses and B.) There was no gun. Even if there was a gun, how could you reasonably prove that they guy was trying to mug you and not the other way around.


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## TransportJockey (Oct 25, 2010)

Symbolic said:


> Regardless of how old the stats are, they will remain fairly consistent and have remained consistent. The U.S will always rank high. I think your overlooking the obvious and I wouldn't expect anything less of a response from a gun advocate. I fail to see the correlation and never will.


Like I said, I would still like to see current stats, as well as a per capita set of numbers. Per capita I think we will actually rank below a lot of countries. 


> If everyone was carrying a weapon, crime would not decrease.. It would be more of an excuse for a gun toting redneck to shoot you cause you looked at him wrong. Would you think twice before stealing someones car.. Yes of course, but you can't just blast someone for stealing your car. In most states its even illegal to shoot someone if they just stole your belongings and raped your wife and was retreating off your property..


If someone has a weapon you are allowed to defend yourself in almost any state that allows carry of weapons. A lot of people who are carjacked usually aren't paying attention anyways.
As for the rape part... Castle Doctrine. Love it  If they come into my home and I fear that my life is in danger, or they threaten you, you are allowed to defend your home and the life of those in it. Women have shot attempted rapists and it's been ruled as a justified shooting.
EDIT: Didn't read well enough to see the retreating part. That's why you don't let them step out your front door. And make sure to shoot them in the front.


> So even if everyone carried guns, the laws would still apply, resulting in more instances of deaths that occurred from gun owners "thinking they had the right to self defense"



You mean we don't have a right to self defense? Really? That's a new one.


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## Symbolic (Oct 25, 2010)

jtpaintball70 said:


> If someone has a weapon you are allowed to defend yourself in almost any state that allows carry of weapons. A lot of people who are carjacked usually aren't paying attention anyways.
> As for the rape part... Castle Doctrine. Love it  If they come into my home and I fear that my life is in danger, or they threaten you, you are allowed to defend your home and the life of those in it. Women have shot attempted rapists and it's been ruled as a justified shooting.
> EDIT: Didn't read well enough to see the retreating part. That's why you don't let them step out your front door. And make sure to shoot them in the front.
> 
> You mean we don't have a right to self defense? Really? That's a new one.



Right, but you can see how circumstantial the use of a gun can be for self defense. You would need to carry a brochure with all the situations that a gun can and cannot be used and whether or not you should or should not kill this individual in order to save your own skin.


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## JPINFV (Oct 25, 2010)

Symbolic said:


> It is a serious conversation.


However characterizing everyone who carries as being a red neck is about as useful as characterizing everyone who supports the Brady Bunch as San Francisco or New England liberals who are only interested in bring communism to the US. 




> I think most fail to realize what constitutes self defense. An individual who steals your belongings is not a candidate for a bullet. You will be punished and charged for murder in most states. As stated earlier, even if an intruder broke into your home and violated your wife, but was on the retreat outside of your property, again, you can and will be charged with murder.


Even in the People's Republic of Kalifornia, a robbery where an individual has a reasonable suspicion that their life is in immediate danger and they are unable to escape is a clean shoot. That part about escape is null and void in places of residents. If you break into my house, as long as I'm not shooting you in the back while you're trying to leave my house and I take your life, it is a legal kill. In regards of the rape, if he's still engaged in rape or trying to force himself on a women, then that as well is a clean kill. 



> Another hypothetical. You are walking solo down an ally and a guy pulls out a weapon that appeared to be a gun and you shoot him. You are charged with murder because A.) there were no witnesses and B.) There was no gun. Even if there was a gun, how could you reasonably prove that they guy was trying to mug you and not the other way around.


Because that's the only scenario where carried fire arms are used?  No one is going to claim that every shoot is a valid shoot. However a fire arm is a tool, weapon, and a toy. Just like other tools, weapons, and toys*, it can be misused or abused, but that doesn't warrant outlawing them. Should we outlaw baseball bats because inattentive kids can hit another kid on the baseball diamond or bad guys can use them to rob, injure, and kill? 


*I'm going to qualify my use of the word "toy." I own a Winchester model 1300 shotgun. I do not hunt. As it currently stands, I do not own any ammo (I need to stop by Walmart). My main use is shooting clay discs for personal pleasure at the local trap field. It is a toy. Like baseball bats or cars, it has many uses and can injure or even kill someone when misused. Just because a baseball bat, a gun, or a car can cause serious damage when misused (intentionally or not) does not change the status of it's other uses. It simply dictates that more care needs to be used when using and storing it. I live in a house with 4 other people (3 other medical students and an engineer). Including myself, 3 people own firearms. All of the fire arms are locked and the pistols are stored in pieces. None of the fire arms are stored loaded. Given the situation, these represent proper and safe storage.


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## JPINFV (Oct 25, 2010)

Symbolic said:


> Right, but you can see how circumstantial the use of a gun can be for self defense. You would need to carry a brochure with all the situations that a gun can and cannot be used and whether or not you should or should not kill this individual in order to save your own skin.



The rules for self defense is a lot shorter than a driver's handbook. Do you consult a driver's handbook every time you start your car?


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## Symbolic (Oct 25, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> However characterizing everyone who carries as being a red neck is about as useful as characterizing everyone who supports the Brady Bunch as San Francisco or New England liberals who are only interested in bring communism to the US.



Wasn't my intention. We all know what a 'gun toting redneck is.' All gun owners obviously don't qualify for such a prestigious title.


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## SanDiegoEmt7 (Oct 25, 2010)

The gun isn't for work, none of the companies in my area allow people to carry on the job.  Simply wanted to see what you guys thought.  I would love to get a CCW so I could at least carry a pistol in my car (not locked in the trunk).

Obviously, I didn't intend for this discussion to be whether I could go around shooting people, on or off work.  The reality is that I live in an city where gun/violence related crime is present.  

Mostly just wanted to see if you EMS workers are pro-2nd amendment or pro-gun control, since we are the ones who often see the aftermath of shootings.


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## Symbolic (Oct 25, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> The rules for self defense is a lot shorter than a driver's handbook. Do you consult a driver's handbook every time you start your car?



No, but I should. You should be able to see what would go wrong if everyone carried a weapon and we used the self defense definition you provided (An individual has a reasonable suspicion that their life is in immediate danger). If everyone carried a weapon, there would be more instances were road rage/petty arguments escalated into shoot outs. Or instances where 18 year old video game nerds, decided to pull a gun because he felt his life was threatened when he was verbally harassed.

I guess I fail to see the logic behind most peoples motives to carry a weapon. Its not like the majority of you guys live in a bad neighborhood, or live out in the wilderness, where a gun might be beneficial. The fact is, most of you carry because you think its cool, or your delusional enough to believe that you will actually need to use you a gun to take a drive from your house in the suburbs to the grocery store. Pathetic actually.


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## JPINFV (Oct 25, 2010)

Symbolic said:


> I guess I fail to see the logic behind most peoples motives to carry a weapon. Its not like the majority of you guys live in a bad neighborhood, or live out in the wilderness, where a gun might be beneficial. The fact is, most of you carry because you think its cool, or your delusional enough to believe that you will actually need to use you a gun to take a drive from your house in the suburbs to the grocery store. Pathetic actually.



Nice personal attack at the end... stay classy.

However so crime never occurs outside of the highly urbanized areas?

Why train people in CPR if most people don't arrest at the grocery store?


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## Symbolic (Oct 25, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Nice personal attack at the end... stay classy.
> 
> However so crime never occurs outside of the highly urbanized areas?



We could honestly go on all day on the subject, I've quite frankly heard it all and contrary to your beliefs, I do have some respect for those who wish to carry. I just cant help but chuckle when I see a guy in line at target with a 9mm strapped to his hip. Not only does it make people around him nervous for their own safety, It also makes people wonder why they are so insecure to carry a gun, when millions of other human beings feel no need to carry. To me, I see insecurity. Gun owners are fearful for their safety above and beyond the common folk. Its just not logical to go about life thinking your going to be presented with a hypothetical situation where a gun was your only saving grace. Sure it happens, but not nearly as often as gun owners want to believe.


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## C.T.E.M.R. (Oct 25, 2010)

I have to agree that for home/personal defense off duty is a good idea in a legal way, and in some areas some ems should have some protection, not necessarily a gun, but if somehow its just you and your partner and your PT pulls a knife what are you going to do next. obviously not all places are like that but there are some cities that it should be a possibility. But only if the individual is properly trained.


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## Akulahawk (Oct 25, 2010)

Symbolic, the research is just not on your side. It is all too common that when you need help, dialing 911 gets you about a 2-5 minute wait from your call to dispatch. Then figure another 2-5 minutes (urban area) for PD to arrive. I live in an urban area and work in a rural one. The PD response time out where I work is in the neighborhood of 20 minutes running Code 3. Yes, that is correct...

I would primarily carry for the same reason PD carries: Protection of self. They get more latitude as to what's a permissible use of force (yes, pointing a firearm at someone is a use of force), but ultimately, that's why they carry. At times, they'll use their firearms for protection of society, but most officer involved shootings I've heard of occurred because someone was endangering the life of the officer. 

In my case, it has nothing to do with feeling psychologically insecure or having inadequate feelings of masculinity. It has everything to do with my physical security. If you saw me carrying while wearing one uniform I wear, you'd have a completely different emotional reaction than with me carrying while wearing my "street clothes."

If I'm doing my part correctly, you'd never know I'm carrying.


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## LucidResq (Oct 25, 2010)

Symbolic said:


> I don't mean to come off as a hippy or anything, but truthfully, how often do we really hear of instances when carrying/owning a weapon was actually beneficial in a time of dire circumstances?



I know this is late in the thread, but I just wanted to point out that I can think of at least _3 in my area in the past few months_. One man shot and killed a 17-year old breaking into his home at night, another man shot and killed an intruder who broke into his house one night, who turned out to be his ex-wife when the lights came on (he'd had a restraining order against her... so I doubt she was just out for material goods), and recently in my city two men robbing a liquor store at gunpoint were shot and wounded.


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## Akulahawk (Oct 25, 2010)

JPINFV, keep a close eye on the _Peruta_ case in San Diego. That case has the serious potential to change certain parts of California's CCW law, as applied. In the last 6 months, my county went from extremely restrictive to nearly shall-issue. Certain parts of LA County have much easier rates of CCW issuance. Not all Cities defer to the Sheriff on this. Also, the LAPD is under court order to issue to people with specified good cause...

I know of what I speak.


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## 46Young (Oct 25, 2010)

jtpaintball70 said:


> That post looks almost exactly like a lot of posts I've come to see on glocktalk the last few years.



I got my material from this article and the comments below:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/10/soaring_gold_and_a_sinking_dol_1.html


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## LucidResq (Oct 25, 2010)

Symbolic said:


> I guess I fail to see the logic behind most peoples motives to carry a weapon. Its not like the majority of you guys live in a bad neighborhood, or live out in the wilderness, where a gun might be beneficial.



We have several firearms in the home, both for hunting, recreational target shooting, and for protection (I'm not of age to have my CCW yet). 

I live in a pretty bad neighborhood. We've had something like 6 homicides in a month or so (one in which a mans home was burglarized, he was kidnapped, and murdered at a different location) and I've literally lost count of the attempted homicides and non-fatal shootings. An elementary school girl who lives *very* close to me was recently raped in her own home. 

We've had two attempted burglaries at night (that we are aware of)... one of which I was home alone, which I often am as my boyfriend pulls shifts at the fire station. I'm not saying I'm helpless without him, but I definitely feel more vulnerable being a young woman home alone. Yes, I feel safer sleeping with a flashlight, phone and gun by the bed. 

I know that I will likely never need to use a gun to protect myself or home, and preventative measures such as alarms and good locks are best, however I clearly do not have firearms to "feel cool" - I have them so I can sleep better at night. You can come out to this neighborhood and sit there with nothing but a phone as you actively hear someone trying to break in your home and tell me how you feel, and then you can come pry my gun from my cold dead fingers if you still think it's wrong for me to have one.


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## 46Young (Oct 25, 2010)

Symbolic said:


> I don't mean to come off as a hippy or anything, but truthfully, how often do we really hear of instances when carrying/owning a weapon was actually beneficial in a time of dire circumstances? I think we see more instances were gun owners children get a hold of their weapons and kill themselves, or gun owners shoot themselves while "playing" with their guns, then times when they were actually beneficial against crime.
> 
> Also, where do you think the majority of weapons used In crime come from? They are stolen or sold from gun owners. If the gun owner population goes down, the instances were guns are acquired to use In crime goes down.
> 
> ...



It's real simple. If I'm a criminal, I'm going to think twice about robbing someone if they're likely to be carrying. If the gov't bans guns, then I can break into someone's home and basically do whatever and whoever I want. Same for any crime. 

For example, here in Stafford VA, there are a good many Marines, Army, cops, FBI, Secret Service, you name it. They're all armed, for sure. Plenty of lay folk with hunting rifles, shotguns, etc as well. The worst crimes we see around here are teenagers playing mailbox baseball. There was a murder here last year. Well, not exactly. The murder was in Prince William county; the body was just dumped in Stafford. The chances of breaking into a home and getting yourself blasted are excellent.

See for yourself:

http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/va/stafford/crime/


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## Symbolic (Oct 25, 2010)

Better get strapped up myself then I suppose.


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## Akulahawk (Oct 25, 2010)

For those of you that do NOT wish to carry, there's this thing called "herd immunity". Basically, if enough people are known to carry, criminals of the violent crime variety are less apt to commit their favorite types of crime for fear that the person will be armed. The non-carrying public benefits because the criminal doesn't know who is armed and who isn't.


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## Akulahawk (Oct 25, 2010)

Symbolic said:


> Better get strapped up myself then I suppose.


You do not have to get "strapped up" yourself... just be aware of the facts and go forth with them and make your own decision. I (myself) do not care if you decide to not arm yourself. That is a decision only you can make for yourself. I don't think anyone should have any issue with you doing that... as long as you do not try to make the rest of us do as you do. Those of us that are (or will be) armed shouldn't drag you along with us. Your belief is yours and yours alone.


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## lightsandsirens5 (Oct 25, 2010)

CAO said:


> Carry a Glock 22 when I'm not working.



I carry a SIG P229R .40S&W off duty. Can't carry on duty. 

I love my SIG. Best gun I've ever fired. And I love the .40. Not like shooting a 10mm cannon, but still carries an enormous kick downrange.


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## TransportJockey (Oct 25, 2010)

lightsandsirens5 said:


> I carry a SIG P229R .40S&W off duty. Can't carry on duty.
> 
> I love my SIG. Best gun I've ever fired. And I love the .40. Not like shooting a 10mm cannon, but still carries an enormous kick downrange.


Heh, .40 Short and Wimpy


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## firecoins (Oct 25, 2010)

SanDiegoEmt7 said:


> I'm considering purchasing a pistol and/or a shotgun, for target practice and home defense.  Given the nature of our job, what's your stance on owning firearms?



we carry heat packs in the ambulance.  All the heat we need.  Leave your gun at home.


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## Aidey (Oct 25, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Tasers are virtually useless outside of LEO. Single shot, limited effect. You shoot someone with a taser and you better hit on the first shot because that's all you've got, and you better hope he stays down after the first set of shocks end or else your entire attention is going to be fixed on pulling that trigger every 5 seconds or so.



I looked into getting a Taser a while ago, and per Taser's website the civilian Tasers deliver one 30 second shock, and the trigger does not have to be held down to continue shocking. The PD Tasers only shock for 5 seconds. Their explanation for this is that 30 seconds gives you enough time to fire and run, where as PD is firing and subduing. They will also replace your Taser if it is lost/destroyed after a justified discharge.


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## SanDiegoEmt7 (Oct 25, 2010)

After some research, I have just found out that my local county Sheriff runs a  Shall Issue CCW operation, based on the fact that such a program helps mitigate crime.

Looks like the entire CCW process only takes 2-3 months here.


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## CAO (Oct 25, 2010)

jtpaintball70 said:


> Heh, .40 Short and Wimpy



Yeah, but at the time I was looking into going into the police force, and that's what was carried by the locals at the time.

Since I have a bit more time, I'll post my views on carrying:

It's a lot like guys carrying condoms.  You're not going to need it all the time, but you'll be glad you had it on you when you do.  The only difference is hoping to use one while avoiding the other.

ETA: I've been looking into getting a 1911 to join the .45 club, but I'm also wanting to get into cowboy shooters.  Then there are my Nagants like somebody else mentioned.  Man, I love those things.


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## TransportJockey (Oct 25, 2010)

CAO said:


> Yeah, but at the time I was looking into going into the police force, and that's what was carried by the locals at the time.
> 
> Since I have a bit more time, I'll post my views on carrying:
> 
> It's a lot like guys carrying condoms.  You're not going to need it all the time, but you'll be glad you had it on you when you do.  The only difference is hoping to use one while avoiding the other.



Just giving ya'll crap about the .40  I actually like the round, but I only have 1 pistol that does double duty for 2 and 4 legged predators, so I'm a bigger fan of the full-house 10mm round


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## CAO (Oct 25, 2010)

I like it too, but it's been too dang hard to find any of the popular calibers for too long now.  Helps that my dad got a reloading bench a while back, but we've still got to set that up.


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## TransportJockey (Oct 25, 2010)

I've had good luck in the past with DT and GA ammo for 10mm, that and having a friend when I lived in ABQ that reloaded 1300fps 200gr JHP rounds for me


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## CAO (Oct 25, 2010)

Haha, that helps.

I haven't had a decent day at the range since the last election when everything disappeared.  I used to shoot what I had, but I've felt like I've had to ration my rounds :sad:


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## TransportJockey (Oct 25, 2010)

I've seen ammo everywhere in NM and TX lately. Even to the point of seeing some Buffalo Bore 10mm rounds sitting on a shelf. Go look around, or just order from a supplier like GA online. I would have gone insane not being able to blow off steam with shooting the last few months.


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## CAO (Oct 25, 2010)

I actually did stop by the counter at Walmart, and it was pretty well stocked.  The cost of .22 has been going up, but other than that, I was happy.

Now I've just got to find time to get to the range, and I'll be all set.


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## Akulahawk (Oct 25, 2010)

CAO said:


> Yeah, but at the time I was looking into going into the police force, and that's what was carried by the locals at the time.
> 
> Since I have a bit more time, I'll post my views on carrying:
> 
> ...


Some SASS folks allow the 1911... in it's own class as that pistol came into being at around the time of the "demise" of the Wild West. Careful though, a good 1911 (O-Frame as a friend of mine calls them) can be very addicting. But yes, better to have and never need than need and not have...

As to the ammo sales, the manufacturers have finally caught up with the demand. So... you'll find the common calibers back on the shelves instead of disappearing as fast as it comes in.


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## Bullets (Oct 26, 2010)

10mm auto? i guess its ok, if you like increased recoil, increased muzzle blast, larger framed firearms, and higher cost.

I can get the same ballistic performance out of .40sw loads as i can 10mm in a smaller package for much cheaper.

The whole reason .40SW exists is because of the short commings of the 10mm, according to FBI at least.If you compare the high powered loads of each, you might get an extra 200 fps out of the 10mm, but at typical combat ranges where a pistol would be used, that is a negligible difference


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## DrParasite (Oct 26, 2010)

question: for those of you that carry all the time, why is that?

and how come once you step on the ambulance, those reasons for carrying all the time don't apply?

and if the reason you don't carry is department rules, why do you allow your personal safety (if that is why you carry all the rest of the time) to be given up by your agency's rule?

for the record, I don't carry a gun with me everywhere, nor do I carry on when at work.


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## TransportJockey (Oct 26, 2010)

Bullets said:


> 10mm auto? i guess its ok, if you like increased recoil, increased muzzle blast, larger framed firearms, and higher cost.
> 
> I can get the same ballistic performance out of .40sw loads as i can 10mm in a smaller package for much cheaper.
> 
> The whole reason .40SW exists is because of the short commings of the 10mm, according to FBI at least.If you compare the high powered loads of each, you might get an extra 200 fps out of the 10mm, but at typical combat ranges where a pistol would be used, that is a negligible difference



I have yet to see a 1300fps 200gr .40sw round that feed reliably. And I do actually like increased muzzle blast and recoil. Plus my preferred size of carry gun is a full frame pistol like my Witness, which is a CZ clone. 

Like I said, I have no problem with .40sw, in fact I plan on getting a conversion barrel for my 10mm so I can shoot both, along with .357SIG and 9x25 Dillon. I just prefer 10mm more, especially due to me carrying it for a woods gun as well instead of a large frame, long barrel revolver

Besides, the 10mm shoots beautifully flat if you ever wanted to use it for long range shooting. I've knocked off a few coyotes at about 150 yards with a properly sighted in Delta Elite and the flat shooting makes it oh so nice


DrParasite said:


> question: for those of you that carry all the time, why is that?
> 
> and how come once you step on the ambulance, those reasons for carrying all the time don't apply?
> 
> ...


I feel that we as medical providers do not need to carry. If we are considered an unarmed party on the streets, chances are we will be left alone. It's the same type of reason that I feel EMS needs to move away from uniforms that look like PD (And that includes moving away from wearing a badge). Even when I pulled shifts in the worst parts of Denver and ABQ we seemed to be able to walk freely through those areas, while PD and to a certain extent FD, had to be more careful. That's not to say that I don't keep my head on a swivel and try to know what's around me at all times. That's just common sense and good situational awareness

Although I'll never fault a provider for wearing armor. Just in case.


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## MrBrown (Oct 26, 2010)

Brown wants some sort of firearm to protect himself and Mrs Brown against the New World Order, perhaps a Springfield Armory XD .40 17+1 .... or some sort of long range tactical snipering weapon to take out the New World Order before they find him


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## DrParasite (Oct 26, 2010)

MrBrown said:


> Brown wants some sort of firearm to protect himself and Mrs Brown against the New World Order, perhaps a Springfield Armory XD .40 17+1 .... or some sort of long range tactical snipering weapon to take out the New World Order before they find him


I bet Brown also wants a weapon to protect him from Mrs. Brown when that time of the month happens, or when she gets pissed at him for not taking out the garbage when he was supposed to


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## CAO (Oct 26, 2010)

When I do carry, I'm usually by myself anyway.  At work, I have a partner, and hopefully police on any scene I need them.


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## MrBrown (Oct 26, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> I bet Brown also wants a weapon to protect him from Mrs. Brown when that time of the month happens, or when she gets pissed at him for not taking out the garbage when he was supposed to



No Brown has other ways of dealing with Mrs Brown during that time of the month

.... or if that doesn't work nothing a little 5mg/ml midaz in a 3ml vial can't fix


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## Themyst (Oct 27, 2010)

I have my concealed carry license. I'm pretty active about going to the range for practice, etc. I'm a woman and I wear my .38 LCR in a concealed belly band (no one would suspect it, heh, as it should be), and on occasion I'll wear my SR9 iwb mob. I love it, I feel naked without a gun.

That said, I am currently an EMT-B student and have been informed that you may not carry while on the job. This greatly distresses me. I really don't understand it - as my training so far has emphasized SAFETY, SAFETY, YOUR SAFETY FIRST. Yet, you are not allowed the basic right to protect yourself?  :huh: I still really don't understand it.


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## CAO (Oct 27, 2010)

The idea is that you shouldn't be in an unsafe situation to begin with.

Of course, we all know that the scene is never completely safe.  In that case, we should always have a plan to get out of the situation.

Let the men in blue do their jobs; we're not getting paid for it anyway.


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## Aidey (Oct 27, 2010)

Themyst said:


> That said, I am currently an EMT-B student and have been informed that you may not carry while on the job. This greatly distresses me. I really don't understand it - as my training so far has emphasized SAFETY, SAFETY, YOUR SAFETY FIRST. Yet, you are not allowed the basic right to protect yourself?  :huh: I still really don't understand it.



That is becuase the focus is on preventing ever getting yourself into that sort of situation.


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## FrostbiteMedic (Oct 27, 2010)

Symbolic said:


> Better get strapped up myself then I suppose.



Well, just think about this. If you lived in Kennessaw, Georgia, the law REQUIRES you to be armed. And they have a really REALLY low violent crime rate.....I wonder why......


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## JPINFV (Oct 27, 2010)

Themyst said:


> That said, I am currently an EMT-B student and have been informed that you may not carry while on the job. This greatly distresses me. I really don't understand it - as my training so far has emphasized SAFETY, SAFETY, YOUR SAFETY FIRST. Yet, you are not allowed the basic right to protect yourself?  :huh: I still really don't understand it.



What's your weapon's retention like when taking a blood pressure? 

Since the vast majority of EMS uniforms are button shirts or polo shirts tucked into heavy duty pants, unless you are planning on wearing a jacket every day, how do you plan on staying concealed?

Will the concealed firearm present a snag hazard when you are working close with patients, especially when moving patients from where ever to your gurney?


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## Aidey (Oct 27, 2010)

There is also the question of what do you do when you go somewhere where guns are not permitted, like a school, mental hospital, or jail?


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## FrostbiteMedic (Oct 27, 2010)

And just to comment on an earlier post (i'm too lazy to go back through the pages to quote it) I live in an area where police response time running code 3 can be a half hour or more.....so yes, I have guns, and yes, if you come to my property and I feel that you pose a threat to my life, you will find yourself at the business end of one of them. If I feel that you pose an _imminent_ threat to my life, the last thing you will see is a pretty bright flower coming from the end of one. 
Just a thought......


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## Akulahawk (Oct 27, 2010)

JP, I could probably find a way to conceal a pretty good sized firearm on my person while wearing a typical EMS uniform and you'd probably never know I'm armed. The ways that I'm thinking of would NOT present a snag hazard or a lifting hazard. Chances are, you'd never see, feel, or hear some of the concealment methods that I might employ during the course of a normal day. Some of those concealment methods would require some greater awareness to get to drawing the weapon earlier as the speed of draw is slower than typical IWB or OWB.


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## JPINFV (Oct 27, 2010)

The only thing I can think of really is an ankle holster, but that is not how Themyst describes how she carries.


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## Aidey (Oct 27, 2010)

An ankle holster is the only thing I can think of also that wouldn't involve access being hindered by a uniform.


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## Akulahawk (Oct 27, 2010)

Aidey said:


> There is also the question of what do you do when you go somewhere where guns are not permitted, like a school, mental hospital, or jail?


Once I receive my CCW license, the only two places on your list that I would have "trouble" with is a mental hospital or Jail/Prison. I would also have a problem with carrying at "sterile" areas of Commercial airports and court houses. CA PC 171b generally prohibits carrying in government buildings but there is an exemption for CCW license holders. In those situations, I simply would present my CCW license to the Officer and ask to be escorted to wherever I can secure my weapon while I'm there. Post Office carry is a gray area for CCW holders. It's legality depends upon how the relevant USC and regulations are read.


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## Akulahawk (Oct 27, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> The only thing I can think of really is an ankle holster, but that is not how Themyst describes how she carries.





Aidey said:


> An ankle holster is the only thing I can think of also that wouldn't involve access being hindered by a uniform.


Ankle holsters are slow... and at the bottom of the list of methods I'd use while in uniform. Belly band is popular, some IWB is tuckable, and have you heard of "thunderwear"? Geez... you two need to explore the carry options a bit.


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## Aidey (Oct 27, 2010)

Right, which is all fine if you are off duty. I was referring to someone carrying on duty, responding to 911 calls. I don't see "Hang out here for 10 minutes guys while we go take care of this" flying very far.


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## JPINFV (Oct 27, 2010)

Akulahawk said:


> Once I receive my CCW license, the only two places on your list that I would have "trouble" with is a mental hospital or Jail/Prison. I would also have a problem with carrying at "sterile" areas of Commercial airports and court houses. CA PC 171b generally prohibits carrying in government buildings but there is an exemption for CCW license holders. In those situations, I simply would present my CCW license to the Officer and ask to be escorted to wherever I can secure my weapon while I'm there. Post Office carry is a gray area for CCW holders. It's legality depends upon how the relevant USC and regulations are read.




Of course the reality is if you're doing it properly, except at the jail or locked down mental health facilities, it shouldn't matter unless some sort of search is performed. After all, it's supposed to be concealed.


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## Akulahawk (Oct 27, 2010)

On-duty, the only places that I've ever been asked to remove items that might become a weapon are mental hospitals and Jails/Prisons. I've been in the Capitol Building before, wearing readily accessible tools that could be used as weapons (my shears and a knife). Nobody batted an eye. When I went to a mental hospital or a Jail or a Prison, the people guarding the place simply asked us to secure any potential weapons in the ambulance. My shears and folder stayed in the bus...

In any event, were I to return to ambulance work, I'd leave the firearms secured someplace else. I rarely go anywhere truly completely unarmed. I usually carry a knife or other implement that can find use as a weapon (flashlight anyone?) almost everywhere. I just have to be aware of the places that I can't go with them on me, and those places are actually pretty few and far between in my travels.


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## clibb (Oct 27, 2010)

Themyst said:


> I have my concealed carry license. I'm pretty active about going to the range for practice, etc. I'm a woman and I wear my .38 LCR in a concealed belly band (no one would suspect it, heh, as it should be), and on occasion I'll wear my SR9 iwb mob. I love it, I feel naked without a gun.
> 
> That said, I am currently an EMT-B student and have been informed that you may not carry while on the job. This greatly distresses me. I really don't understand it - as my training so far has emphasized SAFETY, SAFETY, YOUR SAFETY FIRST. Yet, you are not allowed the basic right to protect yourself?  :huh: I still really don't understand it.



You feel that you need to carry a gun in Maine for protection?
I wouldn't even want to imagine what you'd carry in the big cities.


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## Themyst (Oct 27, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> The only thing I can think of really is an ankle holster, but that is not how Themyst describes how she carries.



I do also have an ankle holster. I only mentioned my setups of choice. 



Aidey said:


> There is also the question of what do you do when you go somewhere where guns are not permitted, like a school, mental hospital, or jail?



Good point.


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## Themyst (Oct 27, 2010)

clibb said:


> You feel that you need to carry a gun in Maine for protection?
> I wouldn't even want to imagine what you'd carry in the big cities.



Well, I also have a Kel Tec PLR16. Maybe that one ... 

I've had this conversation on other forums with people (mostly from other countries whose governments don't allow them firearm protection) and everyone wants to claim how 'safe' certain areas are. I just don't see it that way. I don't think any place is 'safe'.


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## johnrsemt (Oct 27, 2010)

*escorted to area to secure weapon*

So if you were on an emergency run, for a critical patient:  you would delay patient care so that you can secure your weapon?

   There is a lawsuit waiting to happen.


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## DrParasite (Oct 27, 2010)

johnrsemt said:


> So if you were on an emergency run, for a critical patient:  you would delay patient care so that you can secure your weapon?
> 
> There is a lawsuit waiting to happen.


it's a lawsuit, sure, but everything is a lawsuit.  not getting to a scene quick enough is a lawsuit, causing hearing damage to a passerby with a siren is a lawsuit, and apparently not giving pain meds to a person is a lawsuit too.  But it's not a lawsuit that you will lose; in fact, it will probably be thrown out before a jury sees it.

like with the police, if you are being told by a facility (jail, psych hospital, etc) to secure your weapon, than that is what you do.  if they are requiring you do it as a condition of entry, than you are following their rules, and anyone who sues won't have a viable law suit.


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## FrostbiteMedic (Oct 27, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> it's a lawsuit, sure, but everything is a lawsuit.  not getting to a scene quick enough is a lawsuit, causing hearing damage to a passerby with a siren is a lawsuit, and apparently not giving pain meds to a person is a lawsuit too.  But it's not a lawsuit that you will lose; in fact, it will probably be thrown out before a jury sees it.
> 
> like with the police, if you are being told by a facility (jail, psych hospital, etc) to secure your weapon, than that is what you do.  if they are requiring you do it as a condition of entry, than you are following their rules, and anyone who sues won't have a viable law suit.


Yeash, everything may be a lawsuit waiting to happen, but personally I would want to lessen the risk of said lawsuits. The only way I would want to carry while on duty is if I was a sworn officer of a law enforcement agency and that law enforcement agency happened to run EMS where I was as part of the said agency.


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## Fox800 (Oct 27, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> What's your weapon's retention like when taking a blood pressure?
> 
> Since the vast majority of EMS uniforms are button shirts or polo shirts tucked into heavy duty pants, unless you are planning on wearing a jacket every day, how do you plan on staying concealed?
> 
> Will the concealed firearm present a snag hazard when you are working close with patients, especially when moving patients from where ever to your gurney?



http://www.hawkepaks.com/level.itml/icOid/215


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## Fox800 (Oct 27, 2010)

And yes, I pack whenever I can. Glock 19 or Ruger LCP (new acquisition). At home they're backed up by a shotgun and a rifle. However, since I spend a large portion of my waking hours at work or on a college campus, it means that I have to go unarmed a lot of the time. OC spray and knife are always with me though.


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## Bullets (Oct 27, 2010)

i carry in a holster shirt. its like two underarmour shirts sewn together with openings on the front. The third button down on my shirts have been removed, sewn onto the outer placket over the hole, and backed with a snap. So if i have to draw, the snap comes undone and i have direct access to the firearm under my armpit. easy peasy lemon squeezy. 511 tactical makes buttondowns like this for Plain Clothes and Off Duty officers but i just do it my self, my sewing skills are proficient enough.

I always carry my permit in my wallet next to my cert, and if i am going in a place like the state pen, i check the firearm and my boot knife, CO's never give me a problem, they understand the nature of the job and the we come in contact with, especially on nights.


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## DrParasite (Oct 27, 2010)

Bullets said:


> I always carry my permit in my wallet next to my cert, and if i am going in a place like the state pen, i check the firearm and my boot knife, CO's never give me a problem, they understand the nature of the job and the we come in contact with, especially on nights.


I'm curious do you work in Trenton?  

most agencies I know of don't want their EMTs armed, even if they are sworn law enforcement officers who are not acting in a LEO capacity at this time. 

So I am curious as to where you work where it is so dangerous that not only do you carry, but your coworkers and corrections officers don't have a problem with you having a loaded firearm with you on the ambulance.


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## Aidey (Oct 28, 2010)

I have never heard of an EMS or Fire agency allowing their people to carry while at work. I'm very surprised their employer doesn't have an issue with it.


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## clibb (Oct 28, 2010)

Themyst said:


> Well, I also have a Kel Tec PLR16. Maybe that one ...
> 
> I've had this conversation on other forums with people (mostly from other countries whose governments don't allow them firearm protection) and everyone wants to claim how 'safe' certain areas are. I just don't see it that way. I don't think any place is 'safe'.



Get a bullet proof vest and you're good to go. Last thing you want to do is shoot a patient. You have absolutely no authority. You're an EMS provider not Law Enforcement. How come people don't understand that?


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## CAO (Oct 28, 2010)

...How about not getting shot at?  A vest only covers so much.


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## fortsmithman (Oct 28, 2010)

Aidey said:


> I have never heard of an EMS or Fire agency allowing their people to carry while at work. I'm very surprised their employer doesn't have an issue with it.



Some fire depts do allow certain members to carry sidearms and those certain members are the investigative personnel who are also peace officers and only those who are peace officers.


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## clibb (Oct 28, 2010)

CAO said:


> ...How about not getting shot at?  A vest only covers so much.



So you're going to shoot the person before they shoot at you? Don't you have other stuff to worry about? Like patients? If you want to play gunslinger go to the police academy, because I think EMS is the wrong career path for you.


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## Akulahawk (Oct 28, 2010)

clibb said:


> So you're going to shoot the person before they shoot at you? Don't you have other stuff to worry about? Like patients? If you want to play gunslinger go to the police academy, because I think EMS is the wrong career path for you.


Let's put it this way: if someone threatens ME with grave bodily injury, I'm going to respond whether or not I'm on duty as an EMS provider. I have been trained to respond with an appropriate level of force in an appropriate manner. 

You don't have to be taking fire to respond with lethal force. So, yes, there are situations where I would potentially shoot first even if I wasn't being shot at. I will not elaborate on any further on that. If you've been trained in use of force, you'll know what's legal, and you'll have training to back up your response.

Remember, the best way to avoid a fight is to not be there...


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## SanDiegoEmt7 (Oct 28, 2010)

Akulahawk said:


> Let's put it this way: if someone threatens ME with grave bodily injury, I'm going to respond whether or not I'm on duty as an EMS provider. I have been trained to respond with an appropriate level of force in an appropriate manner.
> 
> You don't have to be taking fire to respond with lethal force. So, yes, there are situations where I would potentially shoot first even if I wasn't being shot at. I will not elaborate on any further on that. If you've been trained in use of force, you'll know what's legal, and you'll have training to back up your response.
> 
> Remember, the best way to avoid a fight is to not be there...



This subject is everywhere on the internet and I'm pretty sure it can be debated indefinitely .  But I agree with akulakawk and so does the law (in my state).

The are certain criteria that allow for "justified homicide", such as someone entering my home illegally and me fearing for my life or my families.  This also applies if you have a CCW and are attacked on the street.  If you decide you want to pull the gun and shoot, you must be 100% prepared to be treated and tried as a criminal, so you must be 100% convinced that you are mortally in danger.  The best way I heard it described is that if you even consider not doing it then you shouldn't.

Here's the criteria for CA:
Penal Code 197
Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in any of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,
2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person, against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any person therein; or,
3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was committed; or,
4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving the peace.

Penal Code 198
A bare fear of the commission of any of the offenses mentioned in subdivisions 2 and 3 of Section 197, to prevent which homicide may be lawfully committed, is not sufficient to justify it. But the circumstances must be sufficient to excite the fears of a reasonable person, and the party killing must have acted under the influence of such fears alone.

Penal Code 198.5
Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person, not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.


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## SanDiegoEmt7 (Oct 28, 2010)

As a side note: I've never heard of an employer in California allowing EMS to carry weapons, and there's no need as we work in tandem with police.  

That laws applies for civilians with or without a CCW.


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## DrParasite (Oct 28, 2010)

SanDiegoEmt7 said:


> 3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was committed;


so if my wife is trying to kill my mistress, I can kill her, and it will all be legal?

cool, I need to move to Cali


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## Akulahawk (Oct 28, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> so if my wife is trying to kill my mistress, I can kill her, and it will all be legal?
> 
> cool, I need to move to Cali


If the evidence is clear that your wife was trying to kill your mistress... yes, theoretically, you could. You'd also be investigated for a DV component too. :unsure:

The reality of justifiable homicide in California is you'd better forget the "committing a felony" stuff. If you commit a felony against me, in some manner that doesn't involve Great Bodily Injury, could I kill you? Yes... according to PC 197. I would imagine I'd be prosecuted for it, and probably lose. 

PC 197, 198, and 198.5 all provide for some defenses to PC 187 (murder) charges. Even if you're successful in defending yourself, or charges are never filed due to the homicide being "justified", those sections do NOT provide immunity to civil suit. And yes, you'll likely be civilly sued.

This topic has been discussed many times elsewhere. Yes, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to CA. Other states have a much more complete castle doctrine than California does. Oh, and did anyone notice that nowhere in 197, 198, or 198.5 is a retreat requirement?


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## SanDiegoEmt7 (Oct 28, 2010)

Akulahawk said:


> If the evidence is clear that your wife was trying to kill your mistress... yes, theoretically, you could. You'd also be investigated for a DV component too. :unsure:
> 
> The reality of justifiable homicide in California is you'd better forget the "committing a felony" stuff. If you commit a felony against me, in some manner that doesn't involve Great Bodily Injury, could I kill you? Yes... according to PC 197. I would imagine I'd be prosecuted for it, and probably lose.
> 
> ...



But...
Penal Code 198
A bare fear of the commission of any of the offenses mentioned in subdivisions 2 and 3 of Section 197, to prevent which homicide may be lawfully committed, is not sufficient to justify it. But the circumstances must be sufficient to *excite the fears of a reasonable person*, and the party killing must have acted under the influence of such fears alone.

Most people aren't afraid of someone running away from them.  Hello Prison!

I do agree, though, I wouldn't risk it in California, unless I truly thought my life or my families was in danger.  I would especially careful in certain parts of CA, such as San Francisco.


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## emtchick171 (Oct 28, 2010)

I think it is a great idea to own a firearm, I come from a family that has a strong military background & the day I got my license, my father told me "never go anywhere without your pistol." Granted, I do not take my gun to work with me, but I do carry a knife.

I know in our field of EMS we see a lot of gunshots, however...remember the saying "guns don't kill people, people kill people." 

I come from an area in North Carolina that has the highest crime rate of any other county in NC. It is nothing for us to have 5-6 shootings on a weekend shift. You can never be too prepared to defend yourself.



I actually just found the county I'm from...with some statistics on a government website...these are the 2000 statistics however.

ALL                                   8,906
Murder                        	28
Rape 	                                39
Robbery 	                        232
Aggravated Assault        	529
Burglary 	                        3,042
Larceny - theft            	4,173
Motor vehicle thefts 	        813
Coverage indicator 	        100%


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## CAO (Oct 28, 2010)

clibb said:


> So you're going to shoot the person before they shoot at you? Don't you have other stuff to worry about? Like patients? If you want to play gunslinger go to the police academy, because I think EMS is the wrong career path for you.



On duty, I shouldn't be there to begin with.  Scene safety and all that.  If it gets to that point, I'm leaving.  That way I won't be getting shot at, right?

Off duty, if it comes to it, that's pretty much the idea.

Just offhand, I do have a degree in Criminal Justice.  I did go down that path, and now I've moved into this.  I'm an EMT, and I'm a good one.  Just because I choose to carry off duty doesn't have a single thing to do with how I care for my patients.

Now why are we so judgmental?


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## clibb (Oct 29, 2010)

CAO said:


> On duty, I shouldn't be there to begin with.  Scene safety and all that.  If it gets to that point, I'm leaving.  That way I won't be getting shot at, right?
> 
> Off duty, if it comes to it, that's pretty much the idea.
> 
> ...



Off duty is completely different though. The last thing I'd want on board my ambulance is a pistol.


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## CAO (Oct 29, 2010)

So when did I say I was carrying on duty?


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## DaniGrrl (Oct 29, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Anything that is, at the very least, not per-capita is useless. It's not really amazing or hard to understand why a large country is going to have more crime than a small country when looking at just the raw numbers.


I just wanted to point out that the link did include per capita data. We ranked 8th there behind such examples of safety as South Africa, Columbia, Thailand, and Mexico. Australia and Great Britain ranked 27th and 32nd, respectively. 

As far as gun laws in the US, neither side can win the argument, there are no conclusive studies that can show a direct correlation between CCW and crime rates or personal safety. There is anecdotal evidence on both sides. 

Personally, I don't find that someone carrying a gun around me makes me feel more safe. I lived in SE DC for many years, I never had a gun and I never felt particularly unsafe. I prefer to rely upon my common sense to keep me out of hazardous situations. It hasn't failed me yet.


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## medic417 (Oct 29, 2010)

I believe just about every ambulance packs heat.


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## clibb (Oct 29, 2010)

CAO said:


> So when did I say I was carrying on duty?



You didn't exactly state that you do. But you pretty much said you want to.



clibb said:


> Get a bullet proof vest and you're good to go. Last thing you want to do is shoot a patient. You have absolutely no authority. You're an EMS provider not Law Enforcement. How come people don't understand that?






CAO said:


> ...How about not getting shot at?  A vest only covers so much.


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## ffemt8978 (Oct 29, 2010)

clibb said:


> You didn't exactly state that you do. But you pretty much said you want to.


And nothing you said in this post in any way indicates that CAO wants to carry on duty.


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## CAO (Oct 29, 2010)

ffemt8978 said:


> And nothing you said in this post in any way indicates that CAO wants to carry on duty.



Thank you.

*shrug*

The only thing I implied was that I didn't like the idea of being shot at.


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## emtchick171 (Oct 29, 2010)

CAO said:


> The only thing I implied was that I didn't like the idea of being shot at.





+1 
I agree!!!!I don't blame you! I don't think anyone else can either...


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## CAO (Oct 29, 2010)

Glad to see that I'm not coming across as a reckless medical cowboy.

...unless any of the lady's here are into that kind of thing 

That, for anybody needing clarification, was a joke.

It was not intended to make light of any of the conversation, but merely to show that I have not taken any offense to the same conversation.

I generally carry when I can, and I don't when I can't.  I only carry legally.  Situational awareness is more important than anything.  If you don't have that, no tool, including firearms, will help you at all.

I've never had to use my weapon.  I pray that I never do.  I carry only because I understand the responsibility.  I've trained, I've been trained, and the state of Tennessee sees me qualified to defend myself and my loved ones to the point of deadly force if needed.

That does not make me a bad EMT.  That does not make me a bad person.  That does not make me a bad anything.

In the end, all it makes me is a person who understands that if somebody is threatening my life or the life of somebody I love, I may not have the time to wait for police to arrive.  For some reason, I don't think he'd wait for the men in blue to show up, no matter how nicely I asked.


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## FrostbiteMedic (Oct 29, 2010)

CAO said:


> I generally carry when I can, and I don't when I can't.  I only carry legally.  Situational awareness is more important than anything.  If you don't have that, no tool, including firearms, will help you at all.


It has to be remembered that our head is our #1 tool, whether it be in our jobs, or in our lives. A gun is nothing more than a tool, and should only be used in situations that call for that tool. Very well said CAO..


> I've never had to use my weapon.  I pray that I never do.  I carry only because I understand the responsibility.  I've trained, I've been trained, and the state of Tennessee sees me qualified to defend myself and my loved ones to the point of deadly force if needed.
> 
> That does not make me a bad EMT.  That does not make me a bad person.  That does not make me a bad anything.
> 
> In the end, all it makes me is a person who understands that if somebody is threatening my life or the life of somebody I love, I may not have the time to wait for police to arrive.  For some reason, I don't think he'd wait for the men in blue to show up, no matter how nicely I asked.


Any of us who carry hope that we never have to use our weapons, but that will not prevent us from using them, if and _only_ if they are brought out to protect lives. I will NOT hesitate to use my firearm if the situation mandates deadly force, but that firearm NEVER clears the holster unless it is going to be used. So far, the only places my firearm has cleared the holster is at the firing range as I practice my skills. 
BTW...what part of TN are you in CAO? I'm located in East/Southeast Tennessee...


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## JJR512 (Oct 29, 2010)

A guy I was riding with yesterday told me once heard the following over the radio. A medic told the dispatcher they were taking shots. The dispatcher said to retreat to a safe distance. The medic replied, "Negative, we're returning fire!" Turns out the medic was also a police officer.

It probably doesn't sound as amusing through my retelling as it did when I heard it...


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## emtchick171 (Oct 29, 2010)

JJR512 said:


> A guy I was riding with yesterday told me once heard the following over the radio. A medic told the dispatcher they were taking shots. The dispatcher said to retreat to a safe distance. The medic replied, "Negative, we're returning fire!" Turns out the medic was also a police officer.
> 
> It probably doesn't sound as amusing through my retelling as it did when I heard it...



haha. that's a great story, I would have paid to see the look on the dispatchers face when the medic said "negative we're returning fire." ahh the wonderful world of ems.


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## CAO (Oct 29, 2010)

frostbiteEMT said:


> BTW...what part of TN are you in CAO? I'm located in East/Southeast Tennessee...



I'm from the Chattanooga area, but not quite.


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## clibb (Oct 30, 2010)

JJR512 said:


> A guy I was riding with yesterday told me once heard the following over the radio. A medic told the dispatcher they were taking shots. The dispatcher said to retreat to a safe distance. The medic replied, "Negative, we're returning fire!" Turns out the medic was also a police officer.
> 
> It probably doesn't sound as amusing through my retelling as it did when I heard it...



No way. Absolutely no :censored::censored::censored::censored:ing way. One of the medics I ride with is a 15 year old veteran at our police department and has been with our EMS department for 10 years. He will arrive on shift with his police car but he leaves all his stuff in the cop car. He is not allowed to carry a gun on him or make any arrests when he's working as a medic. 
This is what I've been told by him. Prove me wrong.


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## Fox800 (Oct 30, 2010)

clibb said:


> No way. Absolutely no :censored::censored::censored::censored:ing way. One of the medics I ride with is a 15 year old veteran at our police department and has been with our EMS department for 10 years. He will arrive on shift with his police car but he leaves all his stuff in the cop car. He is not allowed to carry a gun on him or make any arrests when he's working as a medic.
> This is what I've been told by him. Prove me wrong.



Pretty stupid that the agency won't allow him to carry concealed. I'm not sure what state you're in, but in most states off-duty LEOs can carry absolutely anywhere (except maybe the secured areas of jails or airports). He wouldn't be advertising anything by keeping it concealed, and he would be a great asset for the safety of his partners/coworkers on scene in the event that something went really bad.


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## Fox800 (Oct 30, 2010)

DaniGrrl said:


> I just wanted to point out that the link did include per capita data. We ranked 8th there behind such examples of safety as South Africa, Columbia, Thailand, and Mexico. Australia and Great Britain ranked 27th and 32nd, respectively.
> 
> As far as gun laws in the US, neither side can win the argument, there are no conclusive studies that can show a direct correlation between CCW and crime rates or personal safety. There is anecdotal evidence on both sides.
> 
> Personally, I don't find that someone carrying a gun around me makes me feel more safe. I lived in SE DC for many years, I never had a gun and I never felt particularly unsafe. I prefer to rely upon my common sense to keep me out of hazardous situations. It hasn't failed me yet.



What percentage of firearms offenses are committed by otherwise law-abiding gun owners with no criminal histories that prevent them from legally owning a firearm? How many were committed by thugs, gang-bangers, or convicted felons? On top of that, how many are committed by CCW holders?

How exactly would you design a study to investigate the relationship between CCWs and personal safety? Study those who were the victims of violent crime and compare CCW vs. a non-CCW control group, looking for instances of bodily injury? Get back to me on that,

If you felt safe going unarmed, more power to you. I don't think that most CCW holders would "rely on their firearms" to keep them out of hazardous situations, that's called "looking for trouble". Your last paragraph is pretty smug.


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## medic417 (Oct 30, 2010)

clibb said:


> No way. Absolutely no :censored::censored::censored::censored:ing way. One of the medics I ride with is a 15 year old veteran at our police department and has been with our EMS department for 10 years. He will arrive on shift with his police car but he leaves all his stuff in the cop car. He is not allowed to carry a gun on him or make any arrests when he's working as a medic.
> This is what I've been told by him. Prove me wrong.



In most states there is no law against a firearm being in an ambulance.  Some services establish a policy of no firearms allowed.


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## CAO (Oct 30, 2010)

clibb said:


> No way. Absolutely no :censored::censored::censored::censored:ing way. One of the medics I ride with is a 15 year old veteran at our police department and has been with our EMS department for 10 years. He will arrive on shift with his police car but he leaves all his stuff in the cop car. He is not allowed to carry a gun on him or make any arrests when he's working as a medic.
> This is what I've been told by him. Prove me wrong.



15 years old?  I've gotta admit, that's a little young to carry for me 

But why shouldn't he be allowed to carry concealed?  He's obviously (hopefully...) trained to use it.  Concealed nobody would even know unless it was needed.  If it's not known, a potentially violent patient can't go for it.

Not making an arrest I can see, but it seems a little silly for a veteran of the police force to not be allowed to carry.  As others have said, it's more likely policy than law, and he chooses to follow that policy in order to work.

But how are we supposed to prove wrong the hearsay from an unidentified source?


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## clibb (Oct 30, 2010)

CAO said:


> 15 years old?  I've gotta admit, that's a little young to carry for me
> 
> But why shouldn't he be allowed to carry concealed?  He's obviously (hopefully...) trained to use it.  Concealed nobody would even know unless it was needed.  If it's not known, a potentially violent patient can't go for it.
> 
> ...



Funny thing is that he carries the gun all the time when he's off duty, but while in Paramedic uniform he doesn't carry it.


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## ffemt8978 (Oct 30, 2010)

clibb said:


> Funny thing is that he carries the gun all the time when he's off duty, but while in Paramedic uniform he doesn't carry it.


That's his choice then...but it in no way establishes the standard for people across the country.  As a matter of fact, HR-218 "Law Enforcement Officer's Safety Act" pretty much allows officers to carry wherever they want, whenever they want (with some exceptions and subject to certain criteria).


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## Akulahawk (Oct 30, 2010)

ffemt8978 said:


> That's his choice then...but it in no way establishes the standard for people across the country.  As a matter of fact, HR-218 "Law Enforcement Officer's Safety Act" pretty much allows officers to carry wherever they want, whenever they want (with some exceptions and subject to certain criteria).


That's the spirit of the LEOSA, but my soon to get CCW will actually allow me to carry more places than a non-CA LEO can while carrying on the LEOSA. I can walk on the grounds and in the buildings of my daughter's school and I commit no crime. Someone carrying on the LEOSA is NOT exempt from the state's Gun Free School Zone Act. Nor the Federal GFSZA. The LEOSA was not written to provide those exemptions. Think about what that could mean.


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## JPINFV (Oct 30, 2010)

^
Since you mentioned it, I wouldn't be too scared over the Federal GFSZA. It's already been ruled unconstitutional once in US v Lopez, so Congress added a boilerplate about affecting interstate commerce. For the Feds to have a valid case (note, validity doesn't always matter in court cases), they have to prove that the person carrying the fire arm somehow affected interstate commerce.


Edit: I'd personally like to know how the Federal LEOSA is constitutional. Of course the constitution has never gotten in the way of the Federal Government.


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## JJR512 (Oct 30, 2010)

clibb said:


> No way. Absolutely no :censored::censored::censored::censored:ing way. One of the medics I ride with is a 15 year old veteran at our police department and has been with our EMS department for 10 years. He will arrive on shift with his police car but he leaves all his stuff in the cop car. He is not allowed to carry a gun on him or make any arrests when he's working as a medic.
> This is what I've been told by him. Prove me wrong.



I can't prove you wrong. You've told me that _one_ LEO/paramedic whom you personally know has told you that he's not allowed to carry his gun with him when he's working as a medic, so he therefore leaves it in his police car. What does that prove? It proves absolutely nothing in regard to what I wrote and you quoted. Nothing at all.

Your story can be true and correct in your jurisdiction. It might not be true in the jurisdiction where the incident I related allegedly took place. How can you know? I didn't mention what jurisdiction that happened in, so you can't. It's quite possible that not all jurisdictions have laws or policies that prohibit LEOs from carrying their issued weapons with them when working as EMS personnel, did you think of that? Did it also not occur to you that even if there was such a law or policy, that the LEO/medic in my story could have been violating it? Did you think of that?

So don't quote me and tell me that because of one guy _you_ know where _you're_ from that there's "No way, absolutely no ****ing way" that what I wrote could be true or could happen.


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## ffemt8978 (Oct 30, 2010)

Another possibility is that the officer that clibb is referring to does carry concealed while on duty as a paramedic and just chose not to confide this in clibb for whatever reason.


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## FrostbiteMedic (Oct 30, 2010)

CAO said:


> I'm from the Chattanooga area, but not quite.



Grew up in the 58 hwy area myself....now live between pikeville and Spring City...we might know each other lol.....anyways, hit me up with a pm lol....


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## Akulahawk (Oct 31, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> ^
> Since you mentioned it, I wouldn't be too scared over the Federal GFSZA. It's already been ruled unconstitutional once in US v Lopez, so Congress added a boilerplate about affecting interstate commerce. For the Feds to have a valid case (note, validity doesn't always matter in court cases), *they have to prove that the person carrying the fire arm somehow affected interstate commerce*.
> 
> 
> Edit: I'd personally like to know how the Federal LEOSA is constitutional. Of course the constitution has never gotten in the way of the Federal Government.


Actually, they reference the firearm, not the person for the interstate commerce. Same language they use for the LEOSA. The weapon has to have moved in or affect in some manner, interstate commerce. Chances are pretty good that a firearm (or it's parts) have moved through interstate commerce either while it's being built or being shipped to your dealer. If the Federal GFSZA is unconstitutional because of the interstate commerce clause, then the LEOSA is also unconstitutional on the same grounds, precisely because of the same boilerplate language used.


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## JPINFV (Oct 31, 2010)

Wow, I misread it a while back when I first learned that congress did a second end run around the constitution. The sad part is that the circuit appeals courts are actually upholding it. If the fact that an object at one point moved across state lines means that anything that goes into producing it or is produced from it can be regulated, even if that object doesn't, then there really is no limit to the power of the federal government. I bet the framers are rolling in their graves right now. 

Additionally, it is going to be interesting to see if it stands up to McDonald/Heller since the 1000 ft constitution free zone around primary and secondary schools is a de facto prohibition in populated areas.


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## Akulahawk (Oct 31, 2010)

The GFSZA for both Federal and State have exemptions for transporting firearms through them and exempt private property. In other words, as long as my yard is fenced off from the public, I can carry a rifle or pistol in my yard, even if it's right across the street from a school. And you're right. The Interstate Commerce Clause wasn't intended to allow Congress that much power. In any event, since the 2nd Amendment has been stated to be a Fundamental Right, laws that restrict that right are potentially subject to review under strict scrutiny. The 1000 foot zone that the GFSZA creates an infringement upon someone's 2A right. A couple of lawyers and SME people that I am familiar with are of the opinion that the "zone" of the GFSZA is unconstitutional. Prohibiting firearms upon the actual grounds of the school would continue to be constitutional. Because of some legal strategy, don't expect a challenge to this for a couple years. Other portions of the 2A have to be secured first. (Low hanging fruit)


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## JPINFV (Oct 31, 2010)

The problem with the GFSZA is that it shuts down unlicensed carry (both open and concealed). Of course the question is, how does the constitution view unlicensed carry, especially in states with strick or 'may issue' licensing requirments, even though no other constitutional explicit right requires a permit (except maybe the right to assemble, however that's essentially a 'shall issue' march permit following Skokie)?


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## ffemt8978 (Oct 31, 2010)

Okay, this thread has gone walkabout enough and we need to get it back on topic please.


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## Akulahawk (Oct 31, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> The problem with the GFSZA is that it shuts down unlicensed carry (both open and concealed). O


JP: That's precisely the constitutional problem. The right to travel and the right to bear arms for the purpose of self-defense "in case of confrontation" is what makes the 1000' zone unconstitutional. 


ffemt8978 said:


> Okay, this thread has gone walkabout enough and we need to get it back on topic please.


Agreed. 

While I will shortly (within 60 days) be receiving my CCW, I will not be actually carrying at work without my employer's blessing. Many of the policies I work under have an effect of law upon me even if other people can carry within my work area with a CCW. Where I work is covered under PC 171b. In fact, it's a fire-able offense, though I couldn't be charged with a crime. That and I have armed persons at my disposal that can be at my side in less than 3 minutes and that I have other tools that I can deliver lethal force with... minimize my need to carry while I'm actually at work. Elsewhere though... h34r:


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## BLSBoy (Nov 2, 2010)

Bullets said:


> i keep my glock 22 in a holster shirt at all times. Ive been on shooting scenes where we begin to treat a victim and receive fire from opposing gang members trying to finish the pt off. i applied for my CC next day



Challenge flag has been thrown. 
You list as in Jersey, which is next to impossible to get.


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## EMSLaw (Nov 3, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> I'm curious do you work in Trenton?
> 
> So I am curious as to where you work where it is so dangerous that not only do you carry, but your coworkers and corrections officers don't have a problem with you having a loaded firearm with you on the ambulance.



Trenton, Camden, parts of Newark and Jersey City...  

Trenton has municipal Fire-based EMS, though.  And the rest are all hospital-based, AFAIK.  Not sure any of those places would let you carry a firearm.

Like BLSBoy, I might have to call shenanigans on this one, but I'm always willing to be convinced.


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## firecoins (Nov 3, 2010)

I know people at Jersey City Medical Center and UMDNJ.  I;ll ask to see if they are allowed to carry.<_<


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## DrParasite (Nov 3, 2010)

EMSLaw said:


> Trenton, Camden, parts of Newark and Jersey City...
> 
> Trenton has municipal Fire-based EMS, though.  And the rest are all hospital-based, AFAIK.  Not sure any of those places would let you carry a firearm.
> 
> Like BLSBoy, I might have to call shenanigans on this one, but I'm always willing to be convinced.


The question was asked of Bullet, not you EMSLaw, the reason being he said he does carry, and removes his weapon when he goes to the state penn, and no one (corrections officers or his partner) every has a problem with it.

I can answer with almost near certainty for UMDNJ (Newark and Camden): they do not let their EMT's carry, even if they are sworn members of law enforcement.  In fact, I think there is even a rule saying if you are a cop and you need to carry at all times, then you can't work there.  The only exception is the paramedic FBI guys, but they technically aren't UMDNJ employees even when on the ambulance.

I'm pretty sure Trenton won't either (and I hear they aren't really fire-based, still EMS based but grossly mismanaged, and since they were without funding, had to sell their building and moved into the firehouses), and I am guessing Jersey City is the same way. 

That isn't saying that people DON'T carry, hidden somewhere out of the way in case they get caught in a a use it or die scenario, but they are definitely in the minority.  And they never remove said weapons, so no one knows they actually have a firearm on them.


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## TransportJockey (Nov 3, 2010)

I'm glad I'm not the only one who kinda did a 'huh?' on someone in NJ having a CCW. From what I've always heard, getting on in NYS or NJ is even harder than getting one in SoCal


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## Harvey (Nov 3, 2010)

id like to see more open carry. cant believe Texas dosent have it


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## emtchick171 (Nov 3, 2010)

Harvey said:


> id like to see more open carry. cant believe Texas dosent have it



Wow, I thought Texas was one of the states that did condone open carry. Learn something new everyday!


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## TransportJockey (Nov 3, 2010)

emtchick171 said:


> Wow, I thought Texas was one of the states that did condone open carry. Learn something new everyday!



Nope, but go next door to my home state and you can  And one more over (AZ) has constitutional carry (all ways)


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## Probi (Nov 5, 2010)

you need to cowboy up and just get a grenade, or kick it old school with a stick of dynamite.


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## TgerFoxMark (Nov 6, 2010)

I never carried when i was on Duty, but off duty I carry a sidearm 90+% of the time. I have my permit, and usually open carry (legal in indiana as is concealed)  I have had to unholster my weapon once. I've never needed to discharge it except at a range. When I pulled it, I was in the gas station down the street at about 0300 getting milk, when some guy came in with a machete trying to rob the place. i pulled it and he dropped the blade and ran. no reports were filed.

Instances like that are why there are no records of a gun being used to protect oneself and not needing discharged. Having it alone is a detterent to crime near you.

Now that i run my own small shop, i keep one under the cash register, and its been pulled 4 times to stop a robbery... never had to fire it to stop the crime.

Usually just seeing the weapon makes most crooks turn and run.

at home there are several rifles and a shotgun... mainly used for hunting/target shooting... but i wouldnt reccomend trying to rob me.


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## Lone Star (Nov 6, 2010)

Don'tcha just love it when the 'anti-gun crowd' tries to figure out why us 'gun toting rednecks' carry?  I don't know who wrote this, but I agree with what it says:


*I Don't Carry A Gun To:*

I don't carry a gun to kill people. I carry a gun to keep from being killed.

I don’t carry a gun to scare people. I carry a gun because sometimes this world can be a scary place.

I don’t carry a gun because I’m paranoid. I carry a gun because there are real threats in the world.

I don’t carry a gun because I’m evil. I carry a gun because I have lived long enough to see the evil in the world.

I don’t carry a gun because I hate the government. I carry a gun because I understand the limitations of government.

I don’t carry a gun because I’m angry. I carry a gun so that I don’t have to spend the rest of my life hating myself for failing to be prepared.

I don’t carry a gun because my sex organs are too small. I carry a gun because I want to continue to use those sex organs for the purpose for which they were intended for a good long time to come.

I don’t carry a gun because I want to shoot someone. I carry a gun because I want to die at a ripe old age in my bed, and not on a sidewalk somewhere tomorrow afternoon.

I don’t carry a gun because I’m a cowboy. I carry a gun because, when I die and go to heaven, I want to be a cowboy.

I don’t carry a gun to make me feel like a man. I carry a gun because men know how to take care of themselves and the ones they love.

I don’t carry a gun because I feel inadequate. I carry a gun because unarmed and facing three armed thugs, I am inadequate.

I don’t carry a gun because I love it. I carry a gun because I love life and the people who make it meaningful to me.

The misinformation spread by the Brady Center and celebrities like Oprah, Ellen DeGeneres and Rosie O'Donnell have done more to undermine the second amendment than can be truly be calculated.

I've worked some of the roughest areas of Metro Detroit.  I didn't carry, but there were times I sure as hell wished I'd had something more substantial than a mag-lite!

Do I suffer from John Wayne-itis, or Clint Eastwood Syndrome?  Not in the slightest.  When it comes right down to it, I want to be proactive in my defense and the defense of those that cannot or will not take the same stance as I have.

You may have chosen to not have firearms in your life, but do NOT degrade me, browbeat me or otherwise berate or belittle me for my choice!


----------



## medic417 (Nov 6, 2010)

I like that LS.  I don't force my choices on people they should not force theirs on me.


----------



## Cohn (Nov 6, 2010)

There is actually a vollie department next to my dept that wears flak vest and pistols attached to there hips...

"They work in a dangerous area"

We are more south and closer to the danger then they are....



But I do own a pistol a Ruger P95 I do carry and down where I live the local Wal-Mart always have at least 2 citizens that are carrying (open.)


----------



## Cohn (Nov 6, 2010)

jtpaintball70 said:


> Nope, but go next door to my home state and you can  And one more over (AZ) has constitutional carry (all ways)



Not only that but concealed carry is allowed without a permit


----------



## emtchick171 (Nov 6, 2010)

Cohn said:


> Not only that but concealed carry is allowed without a permit



Nice, with certain discretion. For concealed carry in NC you have to take a special class and have background checks like every 3 years, and if you're a convicted criminal (felon) you can't possess a firearm.  It takes a long process for us to get concealed carry but IT IS WORTH IT!!!!


----------



## TransportJockey (Nov 6, 2010)

emtchick171 said:


> Nice, with certain discretion. For concealed carry in NC you have to take a special class and have background checks like every 3 years, and if you're a convicted criminal (felon) you can't possess a firearm.  It takes a long process for us to get concealed carry but IT IS WORTH IT!!!!



That sounds like most states. NM is like that. 
And felons can't own firearms anywhere. That's federal law


----------



## Cohn (Nov 6, 2010)

I think its funny when people say "felons can't own firearms"

Criminals don't break the law on accident... If they are going to be carrying they are going to be doing it whether the law says they can or can't.


----------



## TransportJockey (Nov 6, 2010)

Cohn said:


> I think its funny when people say "felons can't own firearms"
> 
> Criminals don't break the law on accident... If they are going to be carrying they are going to be doing it whether the law says they can or can't.



A felon is also not going to be applying for a concealed handgun permit either.


----------



## Lone Star (Nov 6, 2010)

Cohn said:


> I think its funny when people say "felons can't own firearms"
> 
> Criminals don't break the law on accident... If they are going to be carrying they are going to be doing it whether the law says they can or can't.



That's where the expression "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns" comes from....


----------



## DrParasite (Nov 6, 2010)

Cohn said:


> There is actually a vollie department next to my dept that wears flak vest and pistols attached to there hips...
> 
> "They work in a dangerous area"


What training (if any) and what equipment (if any) do they provide to their members?  and what protocols (if any) do they have to pull said weapons?


----------



## CAO (Nov 6, 2010)

Cohn said:


> I think its funny when people say "felons can't own firearms"
> 
> Criminals don't break the law on accident... If they are going to be carrying they are going to be doing it whether the law says they can or can't.



But surely they won't carry them into our Gun Free Zones!  We have signs and everything!


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## Cohn (Nov 7, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> What training (if any) and what equipment (if any) do they provide to their members?  and what protocols (if any) do they have to pull said weapons?



Honestly I am not sure they have any training but I am not sure so I am not going to try and guess.

I don't think they have any protocols for that but then again no one is telling them they can't carry either so who is stopping them? Well we don't have a mutual aid agreement with them for that reason and others (that are not important right now.)


----------



## phideux (Nov 7, 2010)

Akulahawk said:


> The GFSZA for both Federal and State have exemptions for transporting firearms through them and exempt private property. In other words, as long as my yard is fenced off from the public, I can carry a rifle or pistol in my yard, even if it's right across the street from a school. And you're right. The Interstate Commerce Clause wasn't intended to allow Congress that much power. In any event, since the 2nd Amendment has been stated to be a Fundamental Right, laws that restrict that right are potentially subject to review under strict scrutiny. The 1000 foot zone that the GFSZA creates an infringement upon someone's 2A right. A couple of lawyers and SME people that I am familiar with are of the opinion that the "zone" of the GFSZA is unconstitutional. Prohibiting firearms upon the actual grounds of the school would continue to be constitutional. Because of some legal strategy, don't expect a challenge to this for a couple years. Other portions of the 2A have to be secured first. (Low hanging fruit)



Here in SC last year we had a law change with regards to schools. If you are the holder of a SC CWP, you can have a weapon in your vehicle on school property now. It was changed for the people with permits picking up children at school, and older students like myself, now I don't have to be defenseless going back and forth to school.

AS far as the original point of this post. You can't carry here while on duty with any of the EMS agencies. With concealed carry permits, hospitals are off limits. So I don't carry while running on the ambulance.


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## fortsmithman (Nov 7, 2010)

I'm surprised no one replied with a smart alec type reply like yes we carry heat in the form of hot packs.


----------



## Akulahawk (Nov 7, 2010)

fortsmithman said:


> I'm surprised no one replied with a smart alec type reply like yes we carry heat in the form of hot packs.


I think someone actually did, on the first page...


----------



## Lone Star (Nov 7, 2010)

fortsmithman said:


> I'm surprised no one replied with a smart alec type reply like yes we carry heat in the form of hot packs.



Page 5, post #48:



firecoins said:


> we carry heat packs in the ambulance.  All the heat we need.  Leave your gun at home.




When I got my concealed pistol license, I had to attend a NRA approved safety class.  Part of that class was education on 'shoot/no shoot situations'.  Not all states require this training, but I'm glad I have it. 

Another part of this class was demonstrating a proficiency with a firearm.  If you weren't able to achieve a minimum score for accuracy, you didn't get your license to carry.  At one point I was able to carry in 37 states due to reciprocity.  (Unfortunately, that license expired with no way to renew it).

I will be getting licensed in the state I'm in now as soon as possible. 

As far as carrying while 'on duty', it's not an option here.  That's what we have LAW ENFORCEMENT for!


----------



## Lone Star (Nov 7, 2010)

Symbolic said:


> I don't mean to come off as a hippy or anything, but truthfully, how often do we really hear of instances when carrying/owning a weapon was actually beneficial in a time of dire circumstances? I think we see more instances were gun owners children get a hold of their weapons and kill themselves, or gun owners shoot themselves while "playing" with their guns, then times when they were actually beneficial against crime.


 
Two shot in South Richmond store​ 
By Reed Williams 
Published: July 12, 2009 


A gunman who had wounded a shopkeeper and opened fire on several customers was stopped yesterday when another man shot him at the store in South Richmond, authorities said.

The violent attempted robbery took place shortly after 1 p.m. at the Golden Food Market at 2701 Jefferson Davis Highway, the same store where another man was shot last month -- and only three blocks from the scene of another robbery in June that left a shopkeeper dead.

Owners of as many as a dozen Jefferson Davis-area businesses flocked to the scene of the shooting, and many were rattled by such a brazen daylight attack, said Councilwoman Reva Trammell, whose 8th District includes the Jefferson Davis corridor.

Click the link below read the rest of the article.

1.  Williams, Reed. "Two shot in South Richmond store." www2.timesdispatch.com. Richmond Times-Dispatch, 12 Jul 2009. Web. 7 Nov 2010. <http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2009/jul/12/shot121_20090711-230802-ar-37595/>.


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## Akulahawk (Nov 7, 2010)

LoneStar: Utah and Florida CCW licenses offer a fair amount of reciprocity. The downside, Utah and Florida require an approved instructor... Hopefully you can find one that can do the training. With the right combination of licenses, you should be able to carry in probably 40-ish states. 

California's requirements for the initial training can vary widely.


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## reaper (Nov 7, 2010)

What is funny, is that GA and SC border FL. Neither accept FL's CWP. GA and SC do not honor each others CWP. 

Here's the funny part. If I have my SC CWP, I can mail an application and $20 to Maryland and receive their CWP. GA does accept a Maryland CWP, so I am good crossing state lines. Maryland does not require residency for their CWP.

I think the Feds just need to issue a CWP and it is good in any state that has carry laws. Make it a lot easier and more uniform.


----------



## TransportJockey (Nov 7, 2010)

plus factor in some states that require you to be a resident of the state whose CCW you hold for them to recognize it, and it gets even more confusing


----------



## Akulahawk (Nov 7, 2010)

An easier way to allow carry is to do reciprocal agreements in a manner that's much like a driver's license. You have a CCW from your home state, you're good in all 50 and territories.


----------



## reaper (Nov 8, 2010)

The only way for that to work is for all states to allow CC. Then have them all follow sames rules.


----------



## Lone Star (Nov 8, 2010)

reaper said:


> What is funny, is that GA and SC border FL. Neither accept FL's CWP. GA and SC do not honor each others CWP.
> 
> Here's the funny part. If I have my SC CWP, I can mail an application and $20 to Maryland and receive their CWP. GA does accept a Maryland CWP, so I am good crossing state lines. Maryland does not require residency for their CWP.
> 
> I think the Feds just need to issue a CWP and it is good in any state that has carry laws. Make it a lot easier and more uniform.




GA does have a reciprocity agreement with FL.

SC only has reciprocity with 17 states.

There is (or was last I knew) legislation trying to work its way through Capitol Hill regarding a federal firearms license, so that one could potentially carry concealed weapons in all 50 states.


----------



## Akulahawk (Nov 8, 2010)

Lone Star said:


> GA does have a reciprocity agreement with FL.
> 
> SC only has reciprocity with 17 states.
> 
> There is (or was last I knew) legislation trying to work its way through Capitol Hill regarding a federal firearms license, so that one could potentially carry concealed weapons in all 50 states.


The only CCW legislation that has actually gotten through Congress is the LEOSA of 2004 and an amendment this year that clarifies things a little bit. CCW for non-LE hasn't yet gotten far. One issue with the LEOSA is that it doesn't exempt the "QLEO" from any provisions of any Federal or State GFSZA. Once I have my valid CCW, I can carry on a school campus and I will not be committing a crime under Fed or State law, or be within 1,000 feet of that school, no crime. This is not true for a QLEO who is not carrying as part of his official duties (aka "on duty").

I will eventually have Oregon, Utah, Nevada, and Washington CCW licenses also. This combination will allow me to carry in every state that I would ever travel to, unless I go east of the Rockies... and even the, I'd still have some reciprocity in those states too.


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## MrBrown (Nov 8, 2010)

Gah all this state-level legislation is too bloody confusing for Brown

You know that $10 Saturday night special that you can throw in the river is probably cheaper than all those gun permits. 

Or just get yourself a sniper rifle so you can take em out two miles away and nobody knows about it .... perhaps from the trunk of your car?


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## Bullets (Nov 8, 2010)

I have CWP's in NJ, PA, FL, MD, and UT. It lets me carry in most states that I go to on a regular basis. Except nyc


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## BLSBoy (Nov 8, 2010)

Bullets said:


> I have CWP's in NJ, PA, FL, MD, and UT. It lets me carry in most states that I go to on a regular basis. Except nyc



Who do you know or blow to get that?


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## Bullets (Nov 8, 2010)

Utah, florida, and pennsylvania all issue non-resident permits.this lets me carry in 32 states. I got a permit while in college in PA and worked for a armored car service that crossed the maryland border regularly, so I got a permit in MD. I live in NJ and am friends with a chief of police who approved my permit for NJ


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## DrParasite (Nov 9, 2010)

Bullets said:


> live in NJ and am friends with a chief of police who approved my permit for NJ


Hmm, I know a chief of police, I wonder if he can get me a CCW permit......


----------



## BLSBoy (Nov 9, 2010)

Bullets said:


> I live in NJ and am friends with a chief of police who approved my permit for NJ



And THAT exemplifies what is wrong with Jersey.


----------



## FrostbiteMedic (Nov 9, 2010)

Symbolic said:


> I don't mean to come off as a hippy or anything, but truthfully, how often do we really hear of instances when carrying/owning a weapon was actually beneficial in a time of dire circumstances? I think we see more instances were gun owners children get a hold of their weapons and kill themselves, or gun owners shoot themselves while "playing" with their guns, then times when they were actually beneficial against crime.
> 
> Also, where do you think the majority of weapons used In crime come from? They are stolen or sold from gun owners. If the gun owner population goes down, the instances were guns are acquired to use In crime goes down.
> 
> ...


Finally I found the link I was looking for. 
http://www.rense.com/general9/gunlaw.htm
Symbolic, I would like to invite you to spend a little time in my world, but since I understand that the presence of several firearms in my house and the fact that both my wife and myself carry any time we are not at work (she's self employed, so she actually carries at work) would be cause for you to tell us that we were trying to act "cool", I guess that will never happen. I often stop to help those who are broke down on the side of the road, and when doing so, I am armed 100% of the time. Why is this? Because I do not want to get injured or killed by someone I am trying to assist. I recently had to pull my weapon, but thankfully, I did not have to pull the trigger. I stopped to help a young couple who appeared to be broke down on the side of the road at about 0130 Saturday morning. My wife was in the car, where she stays when I get out to assess a vehicle situation, and she had her gun in her lap, right beside her cell with 911 punched up but not dialed. I walked up to the front of the other vehicle and asked how I could help the couple. The male pulled a knife and told me that I could give them my wallet. I reached back for my gun, which was holstered right above my right rear pocket (my wallet pocket, ironically) and drew down on the kid. I told him to go to the ground and my wife called it in, moving to cover the situation from the other side of the vehicle. Police arrived and the couple was arrested. Come to find out, this was the fourth time they had pulled this stunt within the past year. Three times, the victim had been stabbed after handing the wallet over.....I wonder what stopped him from stabbing his fourth victim? I have no desire to ever fire my gun at a human being, but I tell you this: had he came toward me with that knife I would have pulled that trigger without a thought, because at the end of the day, I am going to stay alive, even if that means I have to take a life to do so. 
Just a thought.....

P.S.- Think about this Symbolic......under our laws, I would have been completely within my rights to have pulled that trigger.


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## Akulahawk (Dec 29, 2010)

While this is a slight necropost... I just wanted to say that I did _finally_ receive my CCW License. I can now legally carry a firearm in public, loaded. Unfortunately, since this isn't Utah, Florida, Washington, Oregon... or any of a bunch of other States, I am restricted to carrying what's specifically listed on my License.


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## LuvGlock (Dec 29, 2010)

Which I must say is one of the dumbest restrictions ever, FWIW.


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## TransportJockey (Dec 29, 2010)

I agree. I'm still findin out what a TX CHL entails, but in NM we had to qualify with either S/A or revolver (or both), and a certain caliber. We could carry whichever type of action, and the caliber qualified with or smaller. Needless to say most qualified with a .45 of some sort.


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## Akulahawk (Dec 29, 2010)

Personally, I think that a person should qualify with a semi-auto or revolver (or both) but not be limited to a particular caliber or specific listed firearm... if they're required to qualify at all. Some states simply look for a person taking some kind of training that has a shooting component to it and consider that sufficient, regardless of score. If you have the certificate of completion, you're good to go in their eyes. Getting a TX CHL shouldn't be all that difficult, and I believe, is Shall-Issue. You may not print, however. That may be considered the same as brandishing there. They want the concealed weapon to be very concealed...


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## HotelCo (Dec 29, 2010)

Akulahawk said:


> You may not print, however. That may be considered the same as brandishing there. They want the concealed weapon to be very concealed...



This is what I love about Michigan. We have open carry. The way the law works, if you have your CPL you can carry anywhere except courts, and federal property, provided you carry openly (as I do). Also, if you don't have your cpl you may carry openly with some restrictions.

I do hope that all states go to constitutional carry at some point. 


.


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## firecoins (Dec 29, 2010)

I carry hand heaters, an electric blanket and an electric heater.

Sent from my Fischer Price Laugh and Learn Phone.


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## jjesusfreak01 (Dec 29, 2010)

firecoins said:


> I carry hand heaters, an electric blanket and an electric heater.
> 
> Sent from my Fischer Price Laugh and Learn Phone.



My truck is fully loaded with hot packs...


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## medic417 (Dec 29, 2010)

Seems the peanut gallery has escaped.  It even seems the jokes have been recycled from pages past.


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## jjesusfreak01 (Dec 29, 2010)

medic417 said:


> Seems the peanut gallery has escaped.  It even seems the jokes have been recycled from pages past.



Maybe, but don't assume I've read the 18 pages from the past...


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## TransportJockey (Dec 29, 2010)

For the moment, since I still have my NM dl I still have my NM ccw. Back home it didn't matter if it printed since oc was legal without permit with some rules.
I usually make sure I don't print though even carrying a full size duty gun (eaa witness in 10mm)


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## HotelCo (Dec 29, 2010)

I'm curious if the OP ended up purchasing a firearm or not.

.


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## Akulahawk (Dec 30, 2010)

Amazingly enough, California does allow for Loaded, Open Carry... just not in incorporated cities, school zones, or areas where discharge of firearms is prohibited. Unloaded Open Carry is technically legal outside of School Zones, and a CCW takes those restrictions down to Courthouses, Federal Buildings, "Sterile Areas" of Commercial airports, and public buildings/meetings protected by a metal detector... and that's actually about it. Picketing while armed (CCW or not) is not legal anyway. Not carrying within a Bar is technically legal, but most CCW licenses have a restriction about that. That makes your CCW subject to revocation if you carry in a Bar.


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## Akulahawk (Dec 30, 2010)

HotelCo said:


> I'm curious if the OP ended up purchasing a firearm or not.
> 
> .


Excellent question!


----------



## Akulahawk (Dec 30, 2010)

jjesusfreak01 said:


> My truck is fully loaded with hot packs...


My car has a very nice heater... does that count?


----------



## SanDiegoEmt7 (Dec 30, 2010)

Akulahawk said:


> Excellent question!



HK .45 or .40 is being ordered with the arrival of my next check, decisions decisions.

After that its going to be a benelli pump action


----------



## Akulahawk (Dec 30, 2010)

SanDiegoEmt7 said:


> HK .45 or .40 is being ordered with the arrival of my next check, decisions decisions.
> 
> After that its going to be a benelli pump action


HK pistols are an excellent choice. If you're still in California... in those calibers, you're going to be limited to the P2000 and the USP models. In fact, if you're going to the .45 ACP, you'd have to get one of the USP models. However, that's only if you're buying new. Consignments and Private Party Transfers are exempt from "the roster" of handguns certified for sale. 

As for the Benelli shotgun, they're very good shotguns. If you're going to "tacticool" it, I'd suggest an 870 or a 590 from Remington or Mossburg. Otherwise, you really can't go wrong with the Benelli from what I've heard about them. 

If you're no longer residing in California... You have a TON of decisions to make about which pistol to buy - even in the HK line! If you haven't already, rent a few different pistols and have some fun with them. If you've settled on HK for certain, do yourself a favor and rent the models you're looking to buy and compare them side by side. If you're considering reloading, also consider the costs of obtaining the components too. In any event, try to save your brass. You might find yourself reloading some day or know someone that does who would love to benefit from you.


----------



## SanDiegoEmt7 (Dec 30, 2010)

Akulahawk said:


> HK pistols are an excellent choice. If you're still in California... in those calibers, you're going to be limited to the P2000 and the USP models. In fact, if you're going to the .45 ACP, you'd have to get one of the USP models. However, that's only if you're buying new. Consignments and Private Party Transfers are exempt from "the roster" of handguns certified for sale.
> 
> As for the Benelli shotgun, they're very good shotguns. If you're going to "tacticool" it, I'd suggest an 870 or a 590 from Remington or Mossburg. Otherwise, you really can't go wrong with the Benelli from what I've heard about them.
> 
> If you're no longer residing in California... You have a TON of decisions to make about which pistol to buy - even in the HK line! If you haven't already, rent a few different pistols and have some fun with them. If you've settled on HK for certain, do yourself a favor and rent the models you're looking to buy and compare them side by side. If you're considering reloading, also consider the costs of obtaining the components too. In any event, try to save your brass. You might find yourself reloading some day or know someone that does who would love to benefit from you.



Solid advice!  I am indeed looking at the USP, I was thinking I would get a smaller caliber to save money on ammo, but a coworker of mine just got 250 rounds of .45 for 70 bucks (walmart) so I think I'm going to go ahead with it.  As for the benelli, I'm probably just going to get the supernova pump action with pistol grip.  The only thing I'll probably put on either is a light, as it will be for home defense.


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## LuvGlock (Dec 30, 2010)

Life saving ammo is cheap at any price.

The $ problem, IMHO, comes when you're buying 1000 rounds of practice ammo.  If it's too expensive, and you're not going to spend the money to practice, you're better off with a smaller caliber that has cheaper ammo.


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## HotelCo (Dec 30, 2010)

LuvGlock said:


> The $ problem, IMHO, comes when you're buying 1000 rounds of practice ammo.  If it's too expensive, and you're not going to spend the money to practice, you're better off with a smaller caliber that has cheaper ammo.



This. 

I carry a .40 and after a while practice ammo adds up. Not to mention buying your carry ammo to practice with every month or so. 

.


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## DarkStarr (Dec 31, 2010)

Rag on a 9 all you want, but I love my USP9c.

Any well placed round, be it a 9 or a .45, will still do the job.. just you'll have more of the 9


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## TransportJockey (Dec 31, 2010)

9, 40 short and weak... all the same  

The only way to economically practice with the heavier/larger calibers (not always the same thing) is to roll your own.


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## Akulahawk (Jan 1, 2011)

jtpaintball70 said:


> 9, 40 short and weak... all the same
> 
> The only way to economically practice with the heavier/larger calibers (not always the same thing) is to roll your own.


Very true. The 9mm will be cheaper and "softer" shooting than a .40... partly because the weight of projectile will be lower. All handgun rounds will be underpowered compared to a rifle, so... shot placement will be key. I'm not all that recoil sensitive, so a 9mm or a .40 or a .45 all work just fine for me. I don't yet reload for pistol, but you can find a significant savings per load if you reload. We're talking box of 50 costs in the $4 range once you get going.

Reloaders don't shoot less expensively... they shoot a lot MORE for the same cost. 

One thing to also consider is the costs of the equipment and material and how many boxes it'll take to break even. That point may take a couple years to reach, but once you do....

Oh, and NEVER carry reloads for defensive purposes unless you absolutely have to. It makes your defense in criminal and civil court a LOT easier if you carry only factory ammo. Practice all you want and shoot IDPA/IPSC with reloads... but for defensive purposes, carry ONLY factory stuff.


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## Ronmac13 (Jan 2, 2011)

I live in ga and carry whenever and wherever is legal. I carry a s&w sd40. What's great is a local judge recently shot and killed a home invader within the past 4 months.

As safety is concerned, I've never just had a firearm decide to shoot itself, amasingly enough I have had to pull the trigger every time. Never had any kind of accidental discharge. The only time to freak out at the sight of a gun is if it's pointed at you.


----------



## HotelCo (Jan 2, 2011)

Ronmac13 said:


> ...I've never just had a firearm decide to shoot itself, amasingly enough I have had to pull the trigger every time.



You too!? Wow, I thought I was the only one. You know, with media making guns out to be some sort of machine that shoots at random... :lol:


----------



## Ronmac13 (Jan 2, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> You too!? Wow, I thought I was the only one. You know, with media making guns out to be some sort of machine that shoots at random... :lol:



ha don't get me started on assault rifles. They're the worse. Just laying around assaulting everyone.


----------



## Ronmac13 (Jan 2, 2011)

http://chronicle.augusta.com/latest-news/2010-08-20/burglar-shot-breaking-judge-overstreets-home

^is the link to the judge that shot the burglar. 

"We support that 100 percent," the sheriff said. "If somebody breaks into your home, we expect and hope that what Judge Overstreet did this morning would be done by any other citizen."

Gotta love when your sheriff makes this statement.


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## HotelCo (Jan 2, 2011)

Ronmac13 said:


> ha don't get me started on assault rifles. They're the worse. Just laying around assaulting everyone.



Couldn't agree more!

But don't forget "high capacity" magazines! Everyone knows that you can't just carry around another to reload with. No, you have to have all the rounds in a "high capacity" one.


----------



## Ronmac13 (Jan 3, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> Couldn't agree more!
> 
> But don't forget "high capacity" magazines! Everyone knows that you can't just carry around another to reload with. No, you have to have all the rounds in a "high capacity" one.



Lol there is never enough ammo, that's why I carry with a ammo drum attached.

But in all honesty, my carry rig includes my sd40, a double mag pouch with an extra mag in one pocket, and a raven arms .25 in the other pocket. I need to buy more mags. My next gun purchase is either going to be the a revolver(s&w m&p or ruger lcr) or a metal .45(not sure what model or make).


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## saycarramrod (Feb 7, 2011)

Just remember it is better to be tried by twelve than be carried by six.


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## ghettocowboy (Feb 7, 2011)

Gp100 in the winter


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## Akulahawk (Feb 7, 2011)

ghettocowboy said:


> Gp100 in the winter


Nice choice of revolver. Currently, I have none in my stable, so to speak. I carry a G23 or a 1911. I may acquire a G27 or a smaller revolver for summer carry... should my current two prove to be less than concealable in the Summer heat.


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## TransportJockey (Feb 7, 2011)

I can't believe I'm doing this... with my next couple checks I'm setting aside enough money for a G23... I can't believe I'm even considering a .40 Short and Weak


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## adamjh3 (Feb 7, 2011)

jtpaintball70 said:


> I can't believe I'm doing this... with my next couple checks I'm setting aside enough money for a G23... I can't believe I'm even considering a .40 Short and Weak



You getting the homeland security discount?


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## TransportJockey (Feb 7, 2011)

adamjh3 said:


> You getting the homeland security discount?



Of course  398 for a compact handgun w/ 3 mags? Hell yes! Although I might wait a little longer to get the G29 instead... Decisions decisions.


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## ghettocowboy (Feb 7, 2011)

Akulahawk said:


> Nice choice of revolver. Currently, I have none in my stable, so to speak. I carry a G23 or a 1911. I may acquire a G27 or a smaller revolver for summer carry... should my current two prove to be less than concealable in the Summer heat.


 yeah summertime will be my problem, I traded in my keltec pocket 9. Id really like to get a snub 38 or even 357


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## Motojunkie (Feb 7, 2011)

Springfield Armory XD subcompact, .40 S&W, Cor-Bon hollow points. Carry everywhere I'm legally allowed to, all year round here in sunny FL.


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## ghettocowboy (Feb 8, 2011)

Wat holster?


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## Motojunkie (Feb 8, 2011)

I use two (I carry IWB over my right buttock). One is a cheap Kydex holster that I use for short to medium length trips, it's easy to slip in and out and is reasonably comfortable. On longer excursions or when I know I'll need more comfort I have a Milt Sparks holster that is like butter on my bottom, super comfortable but takes a couple minutes to position correctly.


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## certguy (Feb 8, 2011)

*Why pack heat??*

I worked San Diego area for 8 years and never felt the need for firepower.That's what cops are for.I found good martial arts knowledge&situational awareness were enough.My partner&I covered each other.THOU SHALT NOT MESS WITH MY PARTNER!!!


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## ghettocowboy (Feb 8, 2011)

Concealed carry is a lifestyle


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## Akulahawk (Feb 8, 2011)

certguy said:


> I worked San Diego area for 8 years and never felt the need for firepower.That's what cops are for.I found good martial arts knowledge&situational awareness were enough.My partner&I covered each other.THOU SHALT NOT MESS WITH MY PARTNER!!!


Good martial arts knowledge and awareness can only protect you for so long. Also, when you're not out and about on the bus, you're not likely to have cops on hand before a problem finds you. I carry precisely because I can't carry a cop in my pocket. 

As to holsters, I carry using a Don Hume slide holster with a thumb break when carrying OWB and either a CTAC or MTAC holster from Comp-Tac for inside waistband carry. I find the MTAC is very comfortable, even with a heavy 1911 on my hip. The CTAC is a close second. I've heard some very good things about Milt Sparks for all leather holsters. 

Yes, Concealed Carry is a lifestyle. You learn to dress around the gun. It can be a HUGE lifestyle change. It all starts with coming to realize that _I_ am responsible for my own safety.


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## ghettocowboy (Feb 8, 2011)

Well said...
I've been looking for a good waistband holster


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## RockDoc (Feb 8, 2011)

Motojunkie said:


> Springfield Armory XD subcompact, .40 S&W, Cor-Bon hollow points. Carry everywhere I'm legally allowed to, all year round here in sunny FL.



I was in St. Petersburg 2 weeks ago on a boat at a marina.  We woke up to the sounds of multiple gunshots less than a block away, sounded like a war.   Found out later that 2 officers were dead and 1 US Marshal wounded.  From what I saw about the neighborhood we were in, a concealed carry could almost be a requirement for ones personal safety.


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## BLSBoy (Feb 8, 2011)

ghettocowboy said:


> Well said...
> I've been looking for a good waistband holster



IWB holster?
Galco makes a kickass one I use with my G27. You can't even tell I'm carrying when I am in shorts and a t shirt.


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## BLSBoy (Feb 8, 2011)

RockDoc said:


> I was in St. Petersburg 2 weeks ago on a boat at a marina.  We woke up to the sounds of multiple gunshots less than a block away, sounded like a war.   Found out later that 2 officers were dead and 1 US Marshal wounded.  From what I saw about the neighborhood we were in, a concealed carry could almost be a requirement for ones personal safety.



They were ambushed. SPPD tore down the house to get the perp. He was Signal 7.


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## Chimpie (Feb 8, 2011)

BLSBoy said:


> They were ambushed. SPPD tore down the house to get the perp. He was Signal 7.



200 bullets will do that to ya.


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## nemedic (Feb 8, 2011)

BLSBoy said:


> They were ambushed. SPPD tore down the house to get the perp. He was Signal 7.





Chimpie said:


> 200 bullets will do that to ya.




Now why did those barbaric LEOs do that to that poor, disenfranchised person? Why didn't they "donate" the house to the SPFD for a surprise live-burn exercise? And give the estate a receipt for the tax deduction. Or, 1 round or two to the lower abdomen, coupled with a delay of approx 45 minutes to an hour for the scene to be declared safe for EMS to enter and pronounce....I mean treat the perp


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## BLSBoy (Feb 8, 2011)

Scumsucker was in the attic, with one of the officers who was deceased. I don't quite know for sure how he was extricated, but it was before the house was torn down.


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## nemedic (Feb 8, 2011)

yeah, I figured on the guy being somewhere barricaded. just replying that with the amount of rounds expended, it was probably a quick exit, and not the slow painful one the perp deserved


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## HotelCo (Feb 9, 2011)

I've been looking to buy an AR-15 for a while now, and have decided I'm just going to build one. I've been ogling different sites for parts for the past few days, and I'm getting pretty excited. COME ON TAX RETURN!


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## lightsandsirens5 (Feb 9, 2011)

jtpaintball70 said:


> I can't believe I'm even considering a .40 Short and Weak



Because you know, way deep down, in the deepest reaches of your soul, the the .40 is THE automatic handgun round.


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## Jeff Toorish (Feb 9, 2011)

There are a few responses on here about how it is always a good idea to own a firearm for home protection. But from outcome based statistics, that is actually not particularly valid. Statistically, in homes with firearms, the chances are 45 times greater that someone other than an intruder will be shot and killed with that gun.

In other words, owning a firearm and keeping it in your home is, statistically, incredibly more threatening than the relatively remote chance that you will encounter an intruder and then have the presence of mind to shoot him (almost never a her). 

As for carrying a gun, the data is not as definitive, but it seems clear that the chances of you actually using a gun to ward off some bad guy are pretty slim. Take the shooting in Arizona recently, there was a guy in the crowd carrying. He nearly shot the wrong person, one of the people trying to stop the gunman. He said he was just lucky he didn't kill an innocent.

Realistically, most incidents happen so fast and there is so much turmoil that there is simply no time to react; and there is a very good chance of reacting wrong. Unlike the movies, real time is fast and not always clear.

In a former profession, as a journalist, I covered far too many stories about kids shooting other kids because dad (it was never the mother) failed to lock up the guns. In every case, the father had been properly trained in gun safety and in most cases believed he had taught his children about gun safety. To be honest, I do not believe most gun owners are all that safety conscious, but that is just a casual observation.

Having said all that, just so we are clear, I am a strong believer in the 2nd amendment and I personally own a weapon, I'm licensed to carry concealed and usually do.  I am both military and civilian trained in firearms handling; and while in the military I worked on a special armed security detail. 

I am also a very strong believer in gun safety, as I'm sure we all are. I think the first part of safety is understanding the real risks. The beginning step is knowing the actual data. 

Stay safe.


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## PotashRLS (Feb 9, 2011)

Jeff Toorish said:


> As for carrying a gun, the data is not as definitive, but it seems clear that the chances of you actually using a gun to ward off some bad guy are pretty slim. Take the shooting in Arizona recently, there was a guy in the crowd carrying. *He nearly shot the wrong person, one of the people trying to stop the gunman. He said he was just lucky he didn't kill an innocent.*Realistically, most incidents happen so fast and there is so much turmoil that there is simply no time to react; and there is a very good chance of reacting wrong. Unlike the movies, real time is fast and not always clear.



With what sounds like a very admirable and commendable background, how did you end up being a journalist??  Interesting transition.  However, I can't say thanks enough to any man or woman who has protected my freedoms.  Thanks!

I think your interpretation is flawed above.  The fact that the ccw person did not shoot in the chaos is a testiment to his critical thinking skills.  He didn't shoot because he didn't have a safe shot.  The word "nearly" is subjective.  Twenty ccw people could have drawn their weapons there and all would be accurate in saying they would have been lucky not to kill an innocent person.  

The interview that I saw with the ccw person talked about him not shooting because the perp was already being subdued.   And based on previous posts, I can't believe a bunch of "rednecks" didn't shoot the whole place up just trying to protect everyone from the crazed gunman.:wacko:  When someone drops the "redneck" term in a firearm conversation, they basically acknowledge that they are part of the problem.  It may as well be legalized racism in my opinion.


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## lampnyter (Feb 9, 2011)

Well i usually have an icy hot on my back. Those are pretty hot.


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## DrParasite (Feb 9, 2011)

Jeff Toorish said:


> In other words, owning a firearm and keeping it in your home is, statistically, incredibly more threatening than the relatively remote chance that you will encounter an intruder and then have the presence of mind to shoot him (almost never a her).


Yesterday in Newark, a well meaning citizen shot an uninvited guest who decided to enter his property without his consent and knowledge in the leg, wounding him and requiring both an ambulance and PD to respond to take care of said intruder.  

the citizen was unharmed.


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## Jeff Toorish (Feb 9, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> Yesterday in Newark, a well meaning citizen shot an uninvited guest who decided to enter his property without his consent and knowledge in the leg, wounding him and requiring both an ambulance and PD to respond to take care of said intruder.
> 
> the citizen was unharmed.



And for every one of those, 45 people who are  not uninvited guests are shot.

Again, i am very  pro-gun, but I like to have all the facts.


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## Akulahawk (Feb 9, 2011)

Jeff Toorish said:


> And for every one of those, 45 people who are  not uninvited guests are shot.
> 
> Again, i am very  pro-gun, but I like to have all the facts.


You might wish to check your sources. Why do I say this? The study that originally claimed that statistic was later retracted, and number subsequently revised downward... WAY down. You do not have all the facts. 

Even the VPC's own statistics are a bit off... They claim that the odds are more like 3:1 of your own firearm being used to harm a member of that family, but they do not exclude accidental discharge.

An analogy is: you're much less likely to be involved in an at-fault auto crash if you do not own or drive a car.

VPC claims that homicide with handgun vs. self-defense is a 43:1 ratio... but they're neglecting to tell you that most of that homicide happens to be suicide (majority of homicide) or criminal on criminal events. You really do have to see the actual report for yourself to see what and how the report has been manipulated. In any event, you're far more likely to die in an auto crash (or be severely injured in one) than you are to die by being shot, from all causes of death by firearm usage. There's about a 3:1 ratio on that...


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## HotelCo (Feb 9, 2011)

Even if the risk is low, I still would rather be prepared for the worst.

.


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## RapelSyrup (Feb 13, 2011)

I carry a Springfield XDM 3.8" Compact in 9mm. I have my CCW and carry everywhere legally allowed. 

I will not be a victim.


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## Jon (Feb 13, 2011)

ghettocowboy said:


> Concealed carry is a lifestyle



Too true.

I own several, and carry most of the time I'm not on duty or at school.

I've been carrying long enough that I've learned that a good holster and belt make all the difference. If you'll spend $400+ on the gun, from $100-$150 on a good belt and holster.

Oh - I'm also politically active with a state-level PAC to work to change some of the laws restricting use of force and carry restrictions. (Castle Doctrine / Stand Your Ground, etc).

If you're in Pennsylvania and want to help - PM me.

-----

I carry because I refuse to be a victim. I'm a fan of the Springfield XD line, and I also have a Ruger LCP.

I carry 9mm - because it works, and is easy to shoot.


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## MEDIC802 (Feb 13, 2011)

Brand new to site , I carry all the time, i am a paramedic/ tems medic, my family all carry and we shoot at least once weekly(not weakly) my daughter and wife are very comfortable with any firearm in my house (that includes cleaning them), But to answer the thread question only some one highly trained should be allowed to carry any weapon(notice I said weapon not just gun) in civilian EMS we hope to have LE on scene when we respond to potentially "dangerous areas" or areas where crowd control is needed, then you have the drug seekers who want to act as a pt and try to steal drugs from the truck hopefull we have performed a good initial assessment and found any "weapons" the pt may have on them, oh well so much for  my 2 cents.


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## Tommerag (Feb 13, 2011)

I got my concealed weapons permit when I was 19. Usually have 9mm with me most of the time and a 1911 and shotgun at home. Plus my other rifles for hunting and target shooting. Could always bust out the old AR15 to lol


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## Spotfyre (Feb 14, 2011)

I also carry where ever my rice paper will let me ( ok its an ID card now) Glad to see others that do and understand the responisabilty it takes to make it a lifestyle choice. Be safe out there in work and every where else.


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## TransportJockey (Feb 14, 2011)

lightsandsirens5 said:


> Because you know, way deep down, in the deepest reaches of your soul, the the .40 is THE automatic handgun round.



Meh, considering when I get my reloading setup completed, I can make the 10mm do anything I want it to do (from .40 levels to full power NORMA loadings w/ 220gr JHP to the double rounds like DoubleTap sells), I'll stick with 10mm being my primary caliber  And since I just found a site where I can buy conversion barrels for the Witness, the G23 just got put on hold. I'll just start saving for the slides and barrels to make my 10mm Witness into a 9mm, .22LR, .45ACP, .40SW, .357SIG, and 9x25 Dillon


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## Akulahawk (Feb 15, 2011)

Spotfyre said:


> I also carry where ever my rice paper will let me ( ok its an ID card now) Glad to see others that do and understand the responisabilty it takes to make it a lifestyle choice. Be safe out there in work and every where else.


There's a California site that takes this very seriously, and you might find some people down your way that share the shooting passion. While CalGuns is a large site, they're not exactly the safest place for advice. If you're not already on CalCCW, I suggest you check out that site. Great site for California-specific CCW.


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## Akulahawk (Feb 15, 2011)

jtpaintball70 said:


> Meh, considering when I get my reloading setup completed, I can make the 10mm do anything I want it to do (from .40 levels to full power NORMA loadings w/ 220gr JHP to the double rounds like DoubleTap sells), I'll stick with 10mm being my primary caliber  And since I just found a site where I can buy conversion barrels for the Witness, the G23 just got put on hold. I'll just start saving for the slides and barrels to make my 10mm Witness into a 9mm, .22LR, .45ACP, .40SW, .357SIG, and 9x25 Dillon


10mm is a very versatile cartridge. The 10mm FBI load was the genesis of the .40 S&W. It was quickly realized that some people just couldn't handle the full-house 10mm, so it was down-loaded and from there, it was quickly realized that less case capacity would work fine... and the rest is history. 

Full-house 10mm loads are supposed to equal the .41 magnum... in an autoloader.

Have fun with it!


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## HotelCo (Feb 15, 2011)

So, I've decided to build an AR-15 from scratch, and I've finally decided on the (stripped) lower reciever I want.


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## fast65 (Feb 15, 2011)

So, just a quick question here. I've been wanting to buy a Mauser K98K and I was wondering if anybody knew anything about them?


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## Tommerag (Feb 15, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> So, I've decided to build an AR-15 from scratch, and I've finally decided on the (stripped) lower reciever I want.



I didn't build mine from scratch, but needless to say that is my baby.

This is my dads most recent purchase.

http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=666&category=Revolver&toggle=&breadcrumbseries=41

Conversation between my parents.

Mom: Why did you get another new gun?
Dad: Because I wanted it.
Mom: Well you already have enough guns the way it is, why do you need another?
Dad: Because I can.


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## Spotfyre (Feb 16, 2011)

Akulahawk said:


> There's a California site that takes this very seriously, and you might find some people down your way that share the shooting passion. While CalGuns is a large site, they're not exactly the safest place for advice. If you're not already on CalCCW, I suggest you check out that site. Great site for California-specific CCW.



Been a member for 2 years and had Greg look over my GC before I turned it in. I thought your name looked familure for some reason. Carry Safe.


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## Akulahawk (Feb 17, 2011)

Spotfyre said:


> Been a member for 2 years and had Greg look over my GC before I turned it in. I thought your name looked familiar for some reason. Carry Safe.


I've known Greg for several years now... 5 or 6 by now. Greg is a wonderful resource for this topic. If you get a chance, take a class with him. I haven't been able to as he's _normally_ about 400 miles away. Not exactly a day trip thing.  Next trip I take down there will likely include a class or two of his.


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## Akulahawk (Feb 17, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> So, I've decided to build an AR-15 from scratch, and I've finally decided on the (stripped) lower reciever I want.


Oh great.... you've been infected by the Lego AR-15 virus... 

Have fun!


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