# Off duty and inebriated



## ExpatMedic0 (Nov 21, 2013)

Here is one for you all. Lets say your at home(or at the bar) enjoying a few cold ones responsibly, celebrating. Suddenly a guy outside your front window drops to the ground. As you gaze on in drunken disbelief, it appears he dropped to the ground due to a sudden cardiac arrest. No ones doing CPR or wants to help, you consider helping but your highly inebriated,your judgment is impaired, and your motor function is altered. How do you proceed(if at all)?

[Note: You don't have any whacker supplies on you, nor does anyone know your affiliated with EMS.]


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## chaz90 (Nov 21, 2013)

Hmm. I suppose this depends on how intoxicated I was. If I were still coherent enough to recognize cardiac arrest when I saw it, I suppose I would begin chest compressions only and ensure someone contacted 911. I'd certainly avoid mentioning anything about being off duty EMS and would leave the scene as soon as possible when someone else took over. I think this is a prime example of functioning as a lay person under Good Samaritan laws. No whacker gear is present, no identifying insignia, and no question if you are on duty. 

Having said that, if I were actually "highly inebriated," I doubt I'd be in any condition to even attempt CPR. If someone dropped outside a bar window, I don't even think I'd have noticed it on some of my more exciting college nights...


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## Mariemt (Nov 21, 2013)

I think any CPR would be better than no CPR. If this guy had a chance at all and it was due to something besides a major trauma I would avoid mentioning I was an EMT, but dang, I'd risk my license to try.
It isn't like it wasn't intentional that whoever was intoxicated and on scene and responding.  It may even be a good Samaritan kinda thing


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## Summit (Nov 21, 2013)

Call 911 - absolutely
Start CPR - if competent (stop if they push you off) :wacko:


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## Handsome Robb (Nov 21, 2013)

Call 911 and hands only CPR.


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## DesertMedic66 (Nov 21, 2013)

Robb said:


> Call 911 and hands only CPR.



The only difference is after 30 compressions you take a shot and any party fouls are to be repaid by mouth to mouth respirations :rofl: :rofl:


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## Rialaigh (Nov 21, 2013)

This is a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. If it gets out in the news or to the family that you were off duty medical personnel then you are just screwed. I'd probably see if I could dial 911 and yell at people till someone else started compressions.


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## mike1390 (Nov 21, 2013)

Rialaigh said:


> This is a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. If it gets out in the news or to the family that you were off duty medical personnel then you are just screwed.




Ummm why would it matter? you have no duty to act (not to open that bag of worms) but as it clearly stated nobody knew you were affiliated with EMS. This is exactly why when I got out to get "weird" I just tell people I am a blimp pilot. Many times Iv seen girls in bars have syncopal episodes and I just watched and grab some popcorn and wait for some ricky to come around and save the day, Iv even seen a guy start compressions on a girl who had a syncopal, great fun was had by all as this guy bought a round for the bar because the thought he saved her life :beerchug:


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## Flight-LP (Nov 21, 2013)

No damned if I don't here! I am under no obligation when I'm off duty and am not exposing my drunk a$$ to any unnecessary liability by getting involved. I also have no interest or concern with any family members perception of the situation. They should focus their time on helping their loved one, not harassing me.........

This is why I built my privacy fence and prefer to drink on my back porch, lol.


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## TransportJockey (Nov 21, 2013)

Flight-LP said:


> No damned if I don't here! I am under no obligation when I'm off duty and am not exposing my drunk a$$ to any unnecessary liability by getting involved. I also have no interest or concern with any family members perception of the situation. They should focus their time on helping their loved one, not harassing me.........
> 
> This is why I built my privacy fence and prefer to drink on my back porch, lol.



This.


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## Handsome Robb (Nov 21, 2013)

Flight-LP said:


> No damned if I don't here! I am under no obligation when I'm off duty and am not exposing my drunk a$$ to any unnecessary liability by getting involved. I also have no interest or concern with any family members perception of the situation. They should focus their time on helping their loved one, not harassing me.........
> 
> This is why I built my privacy fence and prefer to drink on my back porch, lol.



While I agree my conscious wouldn't be happy with me.

If there's someone else around to do CPR I've got no problem calling 911 for them. Can't really say much to me about that in either direction.


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## Rialaigh (Nov 21, 2013)

mike1390 said:


> Ummm why would it matter? you have no duty to act (not to open that bag of worms) but as it clearly stated nobody knew you were affiliated with EMS. This is exactly why when I got out to get "weird" I just tell people I am a blimp pilot. Many times Iv seen girls in bars have syncopal episodes and I just watched and grab some popcorn and wait for some ricky to come around and save the day, Iv even seen a guy start compressions on a girl who had a syncopal, great fun was had by all as this guy bought a round for the bar because the thought he saved her life :beerchug:




Legally it doesn't matter, but when the news reporters are knocking on your door and calling your cell phone and work phone asking you to comment on why you, a medical professional, did nothing to help someone who was dying...well, it intereferes with your life even if you didn't do anything wrong.


You get portrayed as the bad guy either way when it doesn't turn out well.


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## epipusher (Nov 21, 2013)

Rialaigh said:


> Legally it doesn't matter, but when the news reporters are knocking on your door and calling your cell phone and work phone asking you to comment on why you, a medical professional, did nothing to help someone who was dying...well, it intereferes with your life even if you didn't do anything wrong.
> 
> 
> You get portrayed as the bad guy either way when it doesn't turn out well.



How would they find out? What would be the tag line? Drunk guy at a bar who we assume to be medically trained refused CPR?


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## mike1390 (Nov 21, 2013)

Rialaigh said:


> Legally it doesn't matter, but when the news reporters are knocking on your door and calling your cell phone and work phone asking you to comment on why you, a medical professional, did nothing to help someone who was dying...well, it intereferes with your life even if you didn't do anything wrong.
> 
> 
> You get portrayed as the bad guy either way when it doesn't turn out well.




:wacko:!?!?!?! what? Rialaigh you sound a bit paranoid. 

Do you go drink in uniform? Do you hand out business cards with all your info on them stating you are a medic? 

But for the sake of this being the interweb lets say you answered yes to one of the questions above. Which story would you rather have the news report

"Drunk man who claims to be a medic does nothing while man dies"
or
"Drunk paramedic interferes with responding units during emergency situation ; gets arrested for disorderly conduct and state takes his license to practice"

yeah thats why I stick to my blimp pilot story... or sometimes I use the "Im in town for the circus.. I sell cotton candy" line when people ask what I do.


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## Rialaigh (Nov 22, 2013)

mike1390 said:


> :wacko:!?!?!?! what? Rialaigh you sound a bit paranoid.
> 
> Do you go drink in uniform? Do you hand out business cards with all your info on them stating you are a medic?
> 
> ...



I don't tell anyone. That said I could see this scenario playing out

Guy dies in front of your, your hammered. You call 911 and identify yourself as a medic and say this guy just died. Dispatcher pleads with you to start CPR and you don't...makes a great news story....

If your smashed and you call 9-1-1 I would be willing to bet a fair number of you guys would identify yourself as medics (knowingly or unknowingly). 


The scenario is if you are inebriated, not drinking a bit.


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## teedubbyaw (Nov 22, 2013)

Yet again, why would you identify yourself? Why would anyone get your number if you call 911, other than dispatch? 

Are you drunk right now?


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## Tigger (Nov 22, 2013)

Rialaigh said:


> I don't tell anyone. That said I could see this scenario playing out
> 
> Guy dies in front of your, your hammered. You call 911 and identify yourself as a medic and say this guy just died. Dispatcher pleads with you to start CPR and you don't...makes a great news story....
> 
> ...



For me to admit to being an EMT over the phone to a dispatcher, I think I'd have to be so intoxicated that I couldn't even use the phone to begin with.


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## DesertMedic66 (Nov 22, 2013)

Tigger said:


> For me to admit to being an EMT over the phone to a dispatcher, I think I'd have to be so intoxicated that I couldn't even use the phone to begin with.



This. Saying I'm an off duty EMT/medic is not going to make a difference when it comes to calling 911.


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## Rialaigh (Nov 22, 2013)

Tigger said:


> For me to admit to being an EMT over the phone to a dispatcher, I think I'd have to be so intoxicated that I couldn't even use the phone to begin with.



Pretty much the deffinition of inebriated. 

I can't remember the last time I was inebriated and able to use a phone well


I guess my point was this is the stuff that "good" news stories are made of. It's a situation I don't want to be around at all to start with.


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## jzero652 (Dec 2, 2013)

Call 911


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## firetender (Dec 2, 2013)

*Let him die!*

That's what we're talking about here, isn't it?

 But then again, if you're sober enough to recognize that he WILL die if you do nothing, that means you're sober enough to do something.

 If you're sober enough to do something and you stand around (or get crushed by all the off-duty medics running out of the bar!) well, maybe you should hope you never aspirate a hot dog at a bar. Scenario question; Is everyone present too drunk to be curious what made the person hit the floor in the first place? 

 If you can't discern the gravity of the situation and crank out relatively decent compressions while drunk (as you describe it because such things should be an automatic response by now don't you think?) then call 9-1-1 if you can...

 BUT FOR YOURSELF!

 What I have to comment on more than anything is that whether or not you wish to admit it, most of you have been "trained" to accept that the ABC's of emergency intervention start with "A"; AVOID LITIGATION.

 It says so in the book, right? "Your only responsibility is while in uniform assigned to a specific call. Make sure you take the time to completely assess your liability, if anyone recognizes you as someone trained to save lives, and where the nearest exit is before you begin intervention."

 Every time something like this comes up I ask the same question, and this has been going on since 2007 at least; 



> _*Who will show me the statistics on the number of medics sued over rendering emergency care off duty? What are the odds of you actually getting reamed over taking an action to preserve the life of your neighbor? Would somebody PLEASE provide evidence that the risk to yourself supersedes the needs of a person whose life is in danger?[/*_QUOTE]
> 
> Every time, no one can or chooses to provide the answer.
> 
> Maybe this time will be different.


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## Tigger (Dec 2, 2013)

Rialaigh said:


> Pretty much the deffinition of inebriated.
> 
> I can't remember the last time I was inebriated and able to use a phone well
> 
> ...



You missed the point entirely. I would have to in a near coma to tell the 911 dispatcher that I am an EMT. I have no reason to do so, I have never identified myself as an EMT on any other 911 call I have placed, why start now?

The assumption is that when drunk, EMS providers will automatically self identify is just silly and completely unsubstantiated.


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## CFal (Dec 3, 2013)

"911 what's your emergency?"


"Adult male probably in his mid 40s just collapsed and is unresponsive at xyz bar and grill 211 main street sunnyville"

You pretty much all but say you have medical training.


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## DesertMedic66 (Dec 3, 2013)

CFal said:


> "911 what's your emergency?"
> 
> 
> "Adult male probably in his mid 40s just collapsed and is unresponsive at xyz bar and grill 211 main street sunnyville"
> ...



If your completely wasted I doubt anyone will be able to put together a sentence like that, let alone say it without slurring


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## Tigger (Dec 3, 2013)

CFal said:


> "911 what's your emergency?"
> 
> 
> "Adult male probably in his mid 40s just collapsed and is unresponsive at xyz bar and grill 211 main street sunnyville"
> ...



All I do is answer the questions, I don't go out of order. I try to be like every other caller, since that's what the system is designed for.


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## ZombieEMT (Dec 4, 2013)

911


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## Ewok Jerky (Dec 5, 2013)

Good Sam doesn't cover gross negligence, and nothing says gross negligence like practicing medicine while intoxicated.  You could do everything by the book and still be called into question because you were drunk.

Call 911 and if you have to, limit intervention to compressions.  No names, no "I'm an EMT get outta the way!", and fade into the shadows as soon as the cavalry arrives.


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## CFal (Dec 5, 2013)

CPR is a bystander intervention, if you call 911 they will tell you how to do it.  If you tell them you are in a bar and have been drinking and they still direct you to begin CPR than that is recorded and on them 100%


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## Tigger (Dec 8, 2013)

beano said:


> Good Sam doesn't cover gross negligence, and nothing says gross negligence like practicing medicine while intoxicated.  You could do everything by the book and still be called into question because you were drunk.
> 
> Call 911 and if you have to, limit intervention to compressions.  No names, no "I'm an EMT get outta the way!", and fade into the shadows as soon as the cavalry arrives.



If you did everything by the book, how would that meet the definition of negligence?


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