# Security Guards



## daedalus (Mar 21, 2009)

Has anyone ever had experiences being obstructed by security guards? There were three recent incidents at my company that have caused us to raise our concern over them.

The first occurred in a gated community, and a security guard at the gate refused to let one of our units out of the neighborhood after they had *picked up a patient and started transporting to the hospital*. The guard demanded the name, address, and complaint of the patient, which our driving crew member refused to divulge. Dispatchers were notified, who in turn called the security guards supervisor and told him that police would be dispatched if the guard did not open the gate ASAP. He did, and I am really hoping police were called anyways to follow up, but I do not know. 

Second, involved myself and my partner. We responded to a urgent care clinic where we were met with an armed guard at the gate who threatened to use force against us if we did not park where he wanted us to. We left and posted around the corner until county police cleared the scene for us.

Third, one of our CCT crews was held at the front of a hospital by hospital security while they were trying to bring their patient upstairs to receive a STAT cardiac cath. The CCT RN threw a fit after that.

I am trying to understand why some people almost seem to like causing serious problems for others trying to do their jobs. Is this a pattern in your area as well?


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## Kookaburra (Mar 21, 2009)

Oh my goodness! That's crazy. I haven't heard of anything like that around here. However, I'm in a poor(ish) rural area, so not so many gated communities. What do they think they're guarding? Fort Knox?

The only Security Guard annoyance I have is at my non-EMS job, a guy keeps coming in and trying to flirt with me while I'm trying to do my audit. And he's like 50. (I'm 24. Ew.)


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## Hockey (Mar 21, 2009)

Security has tried to interfere with one of our calls.  We quickly ended that mess.  As I said, quickly.


I've had a similar situation regarding security demanding we release patient info.  My partner, 6'6" somehow convinced the guard to open the gate.  I don't know, I was too busy caring for the patient.

I've been in security so I know what they have to do.  But it won't be the end of the world if they don't get the info.  I know some complexs want security to note EVERYTHING that went on overnight.  

I've also had security show up on a full arrest OD.  He was standing there looking oh so unhelpful till I asked if he knew CPR and he said yeah.  I told him to either take over CPR for me so I can do other things (ventilations, assisting the medic) or go elsewhere since there wasn't much room already...


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## daedalus (Mar 21, 2009)

As an EMT, you now know that giving patient information to a security guard at a gate is a HIPPA violation. So while I understand their insistence on taking down info, it is a violation of the law for them to do so.


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## JonTullos (Mar 21, 2009)

daedalus said:


> As an EMT, you now know that giving patient information to a security guard at a gate is a HIPPA violation. So while I understand their insistence on taking down info, it is a violation of the law for them to do so.



Exactly.  Now here's a question:  If a security guard refuses to let you out of the gate and the patient codes and dies, can the guard, his company, complex, etc. be held legally responsible for the patient's death?  The logical side of me says the guard should be charged with manslaughter and the companies should be sued for wrongful death but I'm not sure what the legal side of things would say.  Also, would the EMS or EMTs/medics have any legal recourse since the ability to perform their duty is being infringed upon?


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## karaya (Mar 21, 2009)

HIPAA is very clear about not interfering with the care of a patient.  For instance, in many areas it is common for dispatch to give out the patient's name to EMS responding to a call since in many rural areas that is the best way for crews to locate the residence.  This was an actual example cited by HIPAA whereby HIPAA said the privacy ruling takes a back seat since prompt care to the patient is a priority.

This same example could easily be applied to the case of the security guard.  If giving the name is all you need to get the patient through the gates, then give the name and move on with your patient.  HIPAA will not touch this since divulging the name was necessary to expedite care to the patient.


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## medicdan (Mar 21, 2009)

I wonder, specifically the second two examples, how warranted the security guards were. I am not defending their actions, but we need to consider them to be on our side, not against us. It is possible, specifically at the urgent care and hospital, that the proper authorities have discussed where is it most appropriate for ambulances to park when transporting urgent and non-urgent patients. 

They have weighed your access to the "back hallways", the impact that your vehicle has on traffic patterns, what were to happen if, for example, while you were in the building, there were to be a fire, and FD apparatus would need to access the building, etc. Most likely, the guards were just expressing the facilities policy for your parking and access to the building, and you should consider taking that into consideration.

In fact, in the second scenario, you may have delayed patient care by posting around the corner. Threats aside, if you had listened to the guard in the first place, you would have been able to access and transport your patient (to higher medical capacity) much quicker. Remember, the goal here is to provide patient care, and I presume the definitive treatment your patient needed was not in the back of your truck, but at your destination. 

I have some doubts a urgent care security guard would threaten you with violence for your parking, im sure he has other recourse if he feels you have done something wrong.


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## daedalus (Mar 21, 2009)

> In fact, in the second scenario, you may have delayed patient care by posting around the corner. Threats aside, if you had listened to the guard in the first place, you would have been able to access and transport your patient (to higher medical capacity) much quicker. Remember, the goal here is to provide patient care, and I presume the definitive treatment your patient needed was not in the back of your truck, but at your destination.
> 
> I have some doubts a urgent care security guard would threaten you with violence for your parking, im sure he has other recourse if he feels you have done something wrong.


While you are in fact correct about considering all possibilities and keeping an open mind, you are not correct in assuming violence was not threatened against my partner and myself. The guard in question works for a company contracted to provide security services at this urgent care, which is used by county patients. The situation required us to leave the scene (I will not post exact details, as incident reports had to be filed, and an investigation is on-going) for scene safety reasons, and law enforcement had to become involved. This is not a delay in care, it is a mandated part of our training and practice as prehospital medical profess.... well, technicians. If you are debating whether or not to leave an unsafe scene, you did not listen close enough in your class.


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## daedalus (Mar 21, 2009)

karaya said:


> HIPAA is very clear about not interfering with the care of a patient.  For instance, in many areas it is common for dispatch to give out the patient's name to EMS responding to a call since in many rural areas that is the best way for crews to locate the residence.  This was an actual example cited by HIPAA whereby HIPAA said the privacy ruling takes a back seat since prompt care to the patient is a priority.
> 
> This same example could easily be applied to the case of the security guard.  If giving the name is all you need to get the patient through the gates, then give the name and move on with your patient.  HIPAA will not touch this since divulging the name was necessary to expedite care to the patient.



Great points. I have never heard of these examples but they are good to keep in mind.


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## akflightmedic (Mar 21, 2009)

karaya said:


> HIPAA is very clear about not interfering with the care of a patient.  For instance, in many areas it is common for dispatch to give out the patient's name to EMS responding to a call since in many rural areas that is the best way for crews to locate the residence.  This was an actual example cited by HIPAA whereby HIPAA said the privacy ruling takes a back seat since prompt care to the patient is a priority.
> 
> This same example could easily be applied to the case of the security guard.  If giving the name is all you need to get the patient through the gates, then give the name and move on with your patient.  HIPAA will not touch this since divulging the name was necessary to expedite care to the patient.



Do you have the link to this case cited by HIPAA?

I did not think HIPAA had anything to defend other than how the transmission of patient information is transmitted, shared and stored when billing for medical services provided is involved.

This would make a great teaching moment if you were able to provide more information and direct links preferred.

Cheers!


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## karaya (Mar 21, 2009)

akflightmedic said:


> Do you have the link to this case cited by HIPAA?
> 
> I did not think HIPAA had anything to defend other than how the transmission of patient information is transmitted, shared and stored when billing for medical services provided is involved.
> 
> ...


 
Yes, I'll dig this info back up again. It was a very good piece that really centered around what we call "HIPAA Hysteria", which I find quite common in my travels.  You are correct about the transmission of data, but when HIPAA came to life, there were a ton of assumptions about dispatch centers giving out patient info over the air and if there were any HIPAA issues as a result.  If I'm not mistaken this came from a dispatching article, but again I'll check my achieves and post the link here.


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## VentMedic (Mar 21, 2009)

daedalus said:


> As an EMT, you now know that giving patient information to a security guard at a gate is a HIPPA violation. So while I understand their insistence on taking down info, it is a violation of the law for them to do so.


 
The security guard is essentially an employee of that patient by fees paid to the gated community. It is that security guard's responsibility to protect that patient and their belongings. With the name given to the guard, he/she can now ensure the condo is secure and also direct family members in the proper direction if they have not already been notified. 



Hockey9019 said:


> I've had a similar situation regarding security demanding we release patient info. My partner, 6'6" somehow convinced the guard to open the gate. I don't know, I was too busy caring for the patient.
> 
> I've been in security so I know what they have to do. But it won't be the end of the world if they don't get the info. I know some complexs want security to note EVERYTHING that went on overnight.


 
I am appalled that some who claim to be part of a medical profession want to resort to force or threats instead of better educating themselves for these situations.  There is no logic to threaten someone who may be doing their job when you may not know your own job as it pertain's to the law you are spouting off about.


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## medicdan (Mar 21, 2009)

daedalus said:


> While you are in fact correct about considering all possibilities and keeping an open mind, you are not correct in assuming violence was not threatened against my partner and myself. The guard in question works for a company contracted to provide security services at this urgent care, which is used by county patients. The situation required us to leave the scene (I will not post exact details, as incident reports had to be filed, and an investigation is on-going) for scene safety reasons, and law enforcement had to become involved. This is not a delay in care, it is a mandated part of our training and practice as prehospital medical profess.... well, technicians. If you are debating whether or not to leave an unsafe scene, you did not listen close enough in your class.



Okay, I believe you there. Ultimately the decision that the scene is no longer safe is yours, and making that call early and often is key to your own safety. I clearly dont know the situation, and wont try to understand it, and it is your call to make. All I was trying to do was point out the other various views on this situation.


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## medic417 (Mar 21, 2009)

Perhaps these security guards had heard that terrorists were attempting to use ambulances to commit their horrific crimes.  Heck that fact has even been on the news.  Maybe they thought they were preventing such acts.  Why get onto them for trying to do their job?


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## Hockey (Mar 21, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Perhaps these security guards had heard that terrorists were attempting to use ambulances to commit their horrific crimes.  Heck that fact has even been on the news.  Maybe they thought they were preventing such acts.  Why get onto them for trying to do their job?



Yes, they've heard about the impending Zombie attacks too I'm sure 


We all have a job to do.  It turns into a pissing match between everyone, including LE, FD, EMS, and yes, even security.  It should, and fortunately often does, boil down to common sense.  Just those few isolated incidents.


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## VentMedic (Mar 21, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Perhaps these security guards had heard that terrorists were attempting to use ambulances to commit their horrific crimes. Heck that fact has even been on the news. Maybe they thought they were preventing such acts. Why get onto them for trying to do their job?


 
We do have a strong security and LEO presence at many of our hospitals especially the trauma centers.  No one, including ambulance personnel, gets in without their knowledge.   If you have even seen a gang retaliation attempt, you know it isn't a good sight.  Also, some hospitals house controversial prisoners for medical treatment.   The easiest way to get into that area is to impersonate a medical professional.   Some family members of a murdered person don't care what happens to themselves if they can get close enough to get revenge.    That is why some hospitals have  a very closed access ward which may still unknowingly allow someone impersonating an EMT through.  

I am also surprised at the number of ambulance personnel that get offended when asked by security to show ID.  This is something required of almost every hospital employee across the country even if everyone knows everybody.    Often I believe it is just insecurity and immaturity of some who feel their "importance" is in question by who they perceive to be a lessor professional.

BTW, if an EMT(P) threatens one of our security guards, they will feel the full effect of our LEOs' authority.


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## AJ Hidell (Mar 21, 2009)

The only problems I've ever had with security guards in EMS is the occasional hospital guard who thinks I need to turn my ambulance off while it is parked at the ER dock.  That ain't happening, and he's not going to be able to get into my locked ambulance to do it himself, so they are sometimes unhappy about that.  Oh well.

While a police officer, I once responded to a security guard situation.  A cable TV technician went to a gated community to check lines.  A gate guard refused to let him in without a resident to specifically authorize him to their home.  The tech blew the gate and went in anyhow.  Two guards chased him down and held him for police.  When I got there, I arrested both guards for assault and unlawful detention.  I'm betting the cable company had no further problems there.


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## firecoins (Mar 21, 2009)

I never had a problem with security.  Only housing complex in our area that has security, the guards are all EMTs and "respond" to medical emergencies as first responders.  They do help out with lifting and the like.


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## VentMedic (Mar 21, 2009)

Hockey9019 said:


> Yes, they've heard about the impending Zombie attacks too I'm sure


 
Ever hear of a little thing called the 9/11 attack? 

The Oklahoma City Federal Building Bombing?

Centennial Olympic Park bombing?


This was published in FireHouse Mag:
*Ambulances as Bombs - Now a Reality*

http://cms.firehouse.com/print/Firefighter-Safety/Ambulances-as-Bombs---Now-a-Reality/10$2822 

How about when ambulances are used as bombs?
*Three die in Iraq 'ambulance bomb'*
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/three-die-in-iraq-ambulance-bomb-574858.html

None of us imagined something like 9/11 or the Oklahoma City bombing could occur either. But they happened. I know some here are probably too young to know either of these major events well but they did change the way some think about safety in the U.S.


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## karaya (Mar 21, 2009)

Here is a link to one of the articles that I discussed earlier.

http://www.iowaapco.org/HIPAA.htm

It's actually from an earlier article published by Page, Wolfberg and Wirth, LLC. However, in the article you will find what I was referring to earlier as an "incidental disclosure" whereby giving out the patient's name is necessary in order to facilitate treatment to the patient.

In the case of the security guard, just give him the patient's name so he will open the gate and allow you to continue transporting your patient. It's really that simple!


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## VentMedic (Mar 21, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> The only problems I've ever had with security guards in EMS is the occasional hospital guard who thinks I need to turn my ambulance off while it is parked at the ER dock. That ain't happening, and he's not going to be able to get into my locked ambulance to do it himself, so they are sometimes unhappy about that. Oh well.
> 
> While a police officer, I once responded to a security guard situation. A cable TV technician went to a gated community to check lines. A gate guard refused to let him in *without a resident to specifically authorize him to their home.* The tech blew the gate and went in anyhow. Two guards chased him down and held him for police. When I got there, I arrested both guards for assault and unlawful detention. I'm betting the cable company had no further problems there.


 
AJ! I am surprised at you with both of those examples.

I know you understand the reasoning for shutting off an ambulance that is near a building entrance. Disrespecting the health and safety of others because of whatever power trip you are on at the time to prove a security guard wrong does not make the situation right.

If I am paying association fees at a gated community for security, they darn well better check the crredentials of all who try to enter. Hence, the reason for a gated community. Again, the easiest way to gain access to one of these communities is to pose as a public service worker or health care professional. Even home health nurses go through the same screenin process. As a member of that gated community, I would have sued the PD for interfering with the safety of the members of that community by preventing the security company from doing their job by denying access to my place of residence. I want no one in my home without authorization from me.

If the community as a whole authorized or requested repairs, there should be a number of a board member or another person that can authorize entrance. Public Service companies are usually aware of the rules or how these communities function and there is rarely a problem.


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## medicdan (Mar 21, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> *Ambulances as Bombs - Now a Reality*



Just a quick note: I worked in Israel for some time last year (on an ambulance). There, constant high security is the norm, and people dont think twice about being asked to show their bags when they enter a building. 
At the entrance to every hospital (gates several hundred feet from the building), there is a security fence, and all vehicles entering are searched. They have no problem with racial profiling, so different vehicles and passengers are searched differently. Even ambulances, bringing in critical patients are stopped, the side door opened, interior looked at, then allowed to proceed. The guards know most, if not all of the ambulance personnel in the area, so it is rarely more then a cursory check. 

There is a scary video on youtube of a Palestinian ambulance being stopped at a checkpoint before entering Israel (patient loaded), and a robot removing the mattress on the stretcher, and finding that it is loaded with explosives.


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## VentMedic (Mar 21, 2009)

emt.dan said:


> There is a scary video on youtube of a Palestinian ambulance being stopped at a checkpoint before entering Israel (patient loaded), and a robot removing the mattress on the stretcher, and finding that it is loaded with explosives.


 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khqeDKtHXQE


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## mikie (Mar 21, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khqeDKtHXQE



Thanks Vent; that was very interesting!  The IDF had good reason to do such an extensive search.

 I only wish I had those robots to help move the stretcher around.


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## PapaBear434 (Mar 21, 2009)

I've only had two incidents with security guards, both at the mall.  Once, a girl feel down the escalator.  No, she didn't fall for hours (badum BUM!)  But the security guards decided to pick her up and carry her over to the bench by the fountain, not holding her head, even after they were pretty sure she lost consciousness.  When we tried to take custody, even at the patients desire to go to the hospital, they didn't want to let us because "...we have it under control."  Just wanted to play the hero, I guess.  Maybe they thought they were going to drive her to the hospital.  I don't really know WHAT they were thinking they were going to do.

Second time was a kid that did some shoplifting, ran from the guard, and tripped.  Smacked his head on the edge of one of those coin press machines.  Nice bleed on his head, contusion, and one eye (just the right one) kept wanting to roll back in his head.  We are boarding him, getting ready to take him, and the guards decide we aren't taking him anywhere because they want him turned over to the police, not us.  We tell him that the police are going to meet us at the hospital, but a head injury like this needs to be looked at ASAP.  They actually tried to block the path of the stretcher as we tried to take him out.  

My partner finally got a compromise and told one of them to ride with us, so he can make sure we weren't just going to set the kid free outside.  He acted all the cop, until the police actually showed up and threatened all sorts of public endangerment charges on him.  I don't think anything came of it, but the guard was obviously terrified of the cop yelling at him.  Turns out he was a volunteer EMT-I in the same system as us, only at a different station, so he didn't care for the prospect of some unarmed security guard with no medical training blocking a major medical emergency for the sake of a stolen $20 bottle of cologne.  

Other than those two instances, though, security guards have been nothing but helpful.  I usually don't give names at gates, but I will tell them what address we are looking for to expedite us getting there.  Just say something like "We have a medical emergency at apartment 121, can you tell us how to get there quick?"  Not once have I had a problem getting in.  They will usually drive their little cars or give us good directions there.  A lot of times they will help, like the other day when we had a 32-week pregnant woman going into labor.  My partner was getting her ready to go, and I was downstairs getting the stretcher ready.  I waved him over, he helped me get the stretcher down, held it so the patient could sit, and carried the bag back to the ambulance for us.  Then he helped us get out of the apartment/townhouse complex to the main road, as the entire complex was a bit of a maze if you didn't know your way around.  

I think anyone in any job has the potential to be a jerk if you take your job so seriously that you get on a power trip.  So long as people on both sides remember that we are all in the job of helping people, looking out for their well being, and using common sense, I think we'll all be just fine.


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## imurphy (Mar 21, 2009)

I have to agree, security guards are more than helpful most of the time. We always vividly remember the few times that they are on their power trips.

On some of my side jobs I've done work at large events and they've always been good. I'm sure it's happened to you too where you are so happy to have security there to part the way for you to bring through your patient and equiptment. I remember at a large event (like 200K people!) the security gave us a 20 meter perimeter for us to work, and a clear path for us to go in and leave through. Now 20 meters may not seem much, but remembering that this is standing room only and everyone pushed together at a concert, they did great work. We're always happy for them to have our back, and they know if they get injured who to go to. 

One such thing that comes to mind as an above and beyond idea was when I felt our tent was not secure enough from the drunken people. About an hour after I asked for help, they fenced off our area with 5 meter high fences and while that was happening had a security guard at our tent, from their already over-streched personnell. 

You;ll find the guys that are usually the problem are gung ho and brand new, so I give them some leyway.  It always helped after I became the head of health and safety at the events, and just went to the security chief (who answered to me!!) and told them off the record to have a talk with them!


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## daedalus (Mar 21, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Perhaps these security guards had heard that terrorists were attempting to use ambulances to commit their horrific crimes.  Heck that fact has even been on the news.  Maybe they thought they were preventing such acts.  Why get onto them for trying to do their job?


This is actually another great point for all of us to keep in mind. It is not that difficult to steal or otherwise purchase an ambulance. Perhaps the federal government should come up with a system credentialing for all public safety and EMS personnel with a single, nation ID card.


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## firecoins (Mar 21, 2009)

daedalus said:


> This is actually another great point for all of us to keep in mind. It is not that difficult to steal or otherwise purchase an ambulance. Perhaps the federal government should come up with a system credentialing for all public safety and EMS personnel with a single, nation ID card.



yes but than you Conspiracy theorists complaining about national government.

Emergency responders and others who work with ambulances should be credentialed.


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## imurphy (Mar 21, 2009)

firecoins said:


> yes but than you Conspiracy theorists complaining about national government.
> 
> Emergency responders and others who work with ambulances should be credentialed.



But, on the terrorist note, if they really want to you can pick up a plastic card printer for like 3-400 and make very convincing ID's so no problem with that. Any number of real looking IDs. Hell, for 1000 you can get one that imprints holograms etc. 

So, in fact a national ID card will only make it easier if they have a template to work off.


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## daedalus (Mar 21, 2009)

firecoins said:


> yes but than you Conspiracy theorists complaining about national government.
> 
> Emergency responders and others who work with ambulances should be credentialed.


But its exciting for me! The more the government does, the more suspicious I become 

BTW, I firmly believe in being denied entrance to a hosptial if you cannot produce company or county ID.

I do not know if its just the Los Angeles area, but everyone just seems to have a chip on their shoulders while at work. My points in my first post were not really to illustrate the guard's actions, but attitudes. It was the attitude of a "we do not care bout your patient, but we like to give you a hard time anyways" that shook me up. If they were acting under legitimate reasons while detaining a CCT crew, they escaped me. Vent, if you were held at the doors of a hospital on a critical transfer for more than 10 minutes, what would you have done?


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## daedalus (Mar 21, 2009)

imurphy said:


> But, on the terrorist note, if they really want to you can pick up a plastic card printer for like 3-400 and make very convincing ID's so no problem with that. Any number of real looking IDs. Hell, for 1000 you can get one that imprints holograms etc.
> 
> So, in fact a national ID card will only make it easier if they have a template to work off.


But a thousand different county and state IDs makes it even easier because than you do not even have to copy a card, just make one up and tell some one its from [insert far away place]. With federal ID, anyone anywhere could scan it to check your credentials. (boy, I am setting one up for those conspiracy guys)


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## firecoins (Mar 21, 2009)

imurphy said:


> But, on the terrorist note, if they really want to you can pick up a plastic card printer for like 3-400 and make very convincing ID's so no problem with that. Any number of real looking IDs. Hell, for 1000 you can get one that imprints holograms etc.
> 
> So, in fact a national ID card will only make it easier if they have a template to work off.



Security is never perfect. There is no doubt that anyone can buy ID equipment and fake IDs. NYS driver's licenses are made well above the normal ID making equipment are are very difficult to fake. They are far better than other DLs I have seen including NJ licenses.  You can never be perfect but well made IDs are a step in the right direction.


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## VentMedic (Mar 21, 2009)

daedalus said:


> Vent, if you were held at the doors of a hospital on a critical transfer for more than 10 minutes, what would you have done?


 
First: our arrival would be relayed by our dispatch or whoever is coordinating the patient transfer. We often work with security at other hospitals, especially the large ones, to have immediate elevator access or to prevent us from getting lost. 

Second: What were the security guard's "demands" he was making of you to gain entrance? We always carry contact numbers of the cath lab or whatever unit we are transporting to and from just for these situations or in case of some transfer screw up to verify location. It just takes a minute to confirm the location and it announces your arrival to the awaiting team to open whatever other security doors. The contact number also should be readily available in the CCT team's notes to alert the cath lab or ICU of a change in patient condition which may warrant a diversion to the ED or another unit for stabilization. 

So, instead of your CCT nurse pitching a fit, he/she should have had the numbers readily available to confirm where the patient is going and let the security officer see that everyone gets to where they are supposed to be going. Lack of preparation on the part of the CCT RN does not necessarily make the Security Guard wrong. 

In some places like NYC, LA and Miami, you are dealing with large hospitals that have numerous ICUs and cath lab suites. Getting you to the proper location is an important part of a Security Officer's job. He/she can not just allow you to wander the halls even if you "think" you know where you are going.

CCT or other transport teams often lose much more valuable time because they "think" they know where they are going and get lost than they lose arguing with a Security Guard.


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## firecoins (Mar 21, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> In some places like NYC, LA and Miami, you are dealing with large hospitals that have numerous ICUs and cath lab suites. Getting you to the proper location is an important part of a Security Officer's job. He/she can not just allow you to wander the halls even if you "think" you know where you are going..



This is basically true.  They will just tell you where to go get the initial door and get the elevator.  After that we are on our own. Usually if you work in certain places the securtiy guards know who you are and you know who they are. The hospital where I trained has colored lines on the floor to critical locations.


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## imurphy (Mar 21, 2009)

firecoins said:


> Security is never perfect. There is no doubt that anyone can buy ID equipment and fake IDs. NYS driver's licenses are made well above the normal ID making equipment are are very difficult to fake. They are far better than other DLs I have seen including NJ licenses.  You can never be perfect but well made IDs are a step in the right direction.



I accept the point, Hell if you ever saw the Irish DL's you'd see how easy they are to fake!!

But the point is these ID's are made every day by the DMV, so they can be copied. Just might take a bit more time. Or, on the DMV note, in the news this week, a DMV employee was caught making fake ID's!


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## daedalus (Mar 21, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> First: our arrival would be relayed by our dispatch or whoever is coordinating the patient transfer. We often work with security at other hospitals, especially the large ones, to have immediate elevator access or to prevent us from getting lost.
> 
> Second: What were the security guard's "demands" he was making of you to gain entrance? We always carry contact numbers of the cath lab or whatever unit we are transporting to and from just for these situations or in case of some transfer screw up to verify location. It just takes a minute to confirm the location and it announces your arrival to the awaiting team to open whatever other security doors. The contact number also should be readily available in the CCT team's notes to alert the cath lab or ICU of a change in patient condition which may warrant a diversion to the ED or another unit for stabilization.
> 
> ...



This was not my run, but three co-workers. I was told they delayed our unit's entrance so they could pat down and use a metal detector wand over the patient. Something to keep in mind, he was sedated via propofol and intubated with an evolving MI, who had arrested a few times at the sending hospital. Our CCT nurse is a very competent and cool headed CEN/CCRN and NP. She has worked in many hospitals for over 17 years, so when she tells me that it was unbelievable, I believe her.


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## Veneficus (Mar 21, 2009)

Never once have I had a problem with hospital security. 

I have had a few encounters with private security guards at apartment buildings and communities who took their role (which is to call the police when they see something suspicious, not protect the compound from bin laden) a little too seriously. Usually I just remind them that interfering with an EMS professional in the course of their duty is a felony in my state with mandatory jail time and they can take it up with the real LEOs, they usually just open the gate/door/whatever.


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## VentMedic (Mar 21, 2009)

daedalus said:


> This was not my run, but three co-workers. I was told they delayed our unit's entrance so they could pat down and use a metal detector wand over the patient. Something to keep in mind, he was sedated via propofol and intubated with an evolving MI, who had arrested a few times at the sending hospital. Our CCT nurse is a very *competent and cool headed* CEN/CCRN and NP. She has worked in many hospitals for over 17 years, so when she tells me that it was unbelievable, I believe her.


 
Maybe if the RN would have let the Security Officers do they job instead of pitching a fit, the patient could have gotten through sooner. Regardless of how some conditions appear, the safety of the medical staff is of importance. This is truly not an unusual procedure in many city hospitals. We do have metal detectors in our EDs, including the resuscitation and trauma rooms, since it is not a fun experience to have a gun or knife be found by accidentally discharging or cutting someone during the lifesaving attempts. Security and/or the LEOs will be there to secure all weapons. 

Do you know how many weapons are brought into a hospital by patients being transported by ambulance? Granted it is not your job to search everyone but some of these weapons should be found during an assessment. Thus, the need now for metal detectors and Security Guards or LEOs at the door. Prisioners may also be secured to the OR table during surgery depending on their risk to others. Is it likely they will come out of the sedation to do harm? Probably not but minimizing risk to staff or reminding them not to let their guard down is still vital. And, depending on the level of risk to either the staff or patient, there will be COs or LEOs present inside and outside of the OR.


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## daedalus (Mar 21, 2009)

Interesting points, indeed something to consider. I know that our nurse takes a very very negative stance against violence in the ED, so perhaps this is something to remind her of. I would hope that a security guard delaying a critical patient's entrance to the hospital would explain his reasoning as well as you have.


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## VentMedic (Mar 21, 2009)

daedalus said:


> Interesting points, indeed something to consider. I know that our nurse takes a very very negative stance against violence in the ED, so perhaps this is something to remind her of. I would hope that a security guard delaying a critical patient's entrance to the hospital would explain his reasoning as well as you have.


 
You did state the Security Officer did offer an explanation which was reasonable.



daedalus said:


> *I was told they delayed our unit's entrance so they could pat down and use a metal detector wand over the patient.*


 
The RN should have accepted the fact this is a hospital policy with the safety of medical staff, including her, in mind. No one likes surprises especially when they may present a danger. By her lack of understanding of security issues, she could easily have endangered other staff members, maybe not with this patient but with others where this same situation may come up. It truly doesn't take that long to use a metal detector provided they don't have some medical provider pitching a fit and distracting them from their job. 

Even medical staff is subject to metal detectors as we also have the walk throughs at some of our entrances.


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## SauceyEMT (Mar 21, 2009)

imurphy said:


> But, on the terrorist note, if they really want to *you can pick up a plastic card printer for like 3-400 and make very convincing ID's so no problem with that. Any number of real looking IDs. Hell, for 1000 you can get one that imprints holograms etc. *
> 
> So, in fact a national ID card will only make it easier if they have a template to work off.



www.easyidcard.com

Make any ID you want, Holograms, bar codes, etc. Someone doesnt even to buy a card printer to make a convincing ID.


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## firecoins (Mar 21, 2009)

SauceyEMT said:


> www.easyidcard.com
> 
> Make any ID you want, Holograms, bar codes, etc. Someone doesnt even to buy a card printer to make a convincing ID.



can't make a NYS DL with that.


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## Hockey (Mar 21, 2009)

SauceyEMT said:


> www.easyidcard.com
> 
> Make any ID you want, Holograms, bar codes, etc. Someone doesnt even to buy a card printer to make a convincing ID.



Pretty neat site...


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## nomofica (Mar 21, 2009)

Hockey9019 said:


> Pretty neat site...



I'm tempted to make some IDs for sh*ts and giggles...


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## mikie (Mar 21, 2009)

SauceyEMT said:


> www.easyidcard.com
> 
> Make any ID you want, Holograms, bar codes, etc. Someone doesnt even to buy a card printer to make a convincing ID.



If only they made fakes....B)

(just kidding.....)


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## Hockey (Mar 21, 2009)

nomofica said:


> I'm tempted to make some IDs for sh*ts and giggles...



Not for $12 a pop plus shipping


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## PapaBear434 (Mar 21, 2009)

Hockey9019 said:


> Not for $12 a pop plus shipping



Not to mention, if you think sites like that aren't flagged by the government, you'd be fooling yourself.  Granted, I doubt they are going to go after some 19 year old trying to get into a bar, but if there is some Arab guy trying to get an ID with the name "Bob Smith," I think there would be some flares going up.

Then, I may be overestimating the competency of the government.


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## Veneficus (Mar 21, 2009)

PapaBear434 said:


> Not to mention, if you think sites like that aren't flagged by the government, you'd be fooling yourself.  Granted, I doubt they are going to go after some 19 year old trying to get into a bar, but if there is some Arab guy trying to get an ID with the name "Bob Smith," I think there would be some flares going up.
> 
> Then, I may be overestimating the competency of the government.



undoubtably an overestimation, look at TSA.


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## VentMedic (Mar 21, 2009)

PapaBear434 said:


> Then, I may be overestimating the competency of the government.


 
Possibly considering Mohammed Atta (9/11 terrorist) may have used a passport from the Conch Republic.


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## BossyCow (Mar 21, 2009)

I'm so glad that I work where I do. My ID is my face! Seriously, we do have IDs and entrance to the ER is only by barcode on the ID. I have only had one security issue with a pt. It was a pt who had assaulted ER staff in the past, and was held up outside until LEO could verify to the ER staff that she had been searched for weapons prior to being put in our ambulance. But again, both the pt and staff were recognizable to ER staff. 

We have had no gang related violence. We did catch a terrorist trying to sneak across the border with explosives a few years back.. that was fun. Apparently the guy had malaria and the sweating gave him away to the border patrol guys. He bailed out of his car and booked off on foot. Eventually was caught, imprisoned.. never did figure out for sure where he was headed with the explosives.. theories included the Seattle Space Needle and LAX.


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## SauceyEMT (Mar 21, 2009)

firecoins said:


> can't make a NYS DL with that.



No...but I did design a pretty authentic looking Paramedic ID for Osama Bin Laden who works for Al queda ambulance service. I tried to copy it so I could post it here for laughs, but it wouldn't let me.


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## firecoins (Mar 21, 2009)

firecoins said:


> Security is never perfect. There is no doubt that anyone can buy ID equipment and fake IDs. NYS driver's licenses are made well above the normal ID making equipment are are very difficult to fake. They are far better than other DLs I have seen including NJ licenses.  You can never be perfect but well made IDs are a step in the right direction.





SauceyEMT said:


> www.easyidcard.com
> 
> Make any ID you want, Holograms, bar codes, etc. Someone doesnt even to buy a card printer to make a convincing ID.



Everyone should have an ID.  It should issued by the state or Federal government in a fashion similiar to NYS(or other states with similar DLs).  You can not make the ID I think is required with the machine you linked to.


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## kymtgpro (Mar 21, 2009)

Do the security check points with metal detectors require emts to check any pocket knife, utility blade, etc.. at the door.  sorry if silly question, still in training.


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## Sasha (Mar 21, 2009)

kymtgpro said:


> Do the security check points with metal detectors require emts to check any pocket knife, utility blade, etc.. at the door.  sorry if silly question, still in training.



Why are you carrying a knife? Shears should be adequate. A utility blade/pocket knife just gives someone another weapon to use against you.


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## VentMedic (Mar 21, 2009)

kymtgpro said:


> Do the security check points with metal detectors require emts to check any pocket knife, utility blade, etc.. at the door. sorry if silly question, still in training.


 
Yes if you did not have a proper ID or a valid reason to be carrying it.  You may also be asked to remove it before entering the secured areas of a hospital which has prisoner and psych wards or before entering the secure areas of a jail or prison.


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## PapaBear434 (Mar 21, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Why are you carrying a knife? Shears should be adequate. A utility blade/pocket knife just gives someone another weapon to use against you.



A lot of EMT's I've seen seem to like to have it to cut seat belts and such.  I just carry my Swiss Army knife.  But I carry that EVERYWHERE, on or off duty, and have since I was in the first grade.  It's not exactly a fighting knife, as the blade is apt to fold back and cut your own damn fingers off.  I use it for the tools, mostly.  Never know how badly you need a screw driver until you don't have one.


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## kymtgpro (Mar 21, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Why are you carrying a knife? Shears should be adequate. A utility blade/pocket knife just gives someone another weapon to use against you.



I normally carry a leatherman, of which the blade is probably used the least.  If I were to forget to leave it in the cab, I wouldn't have any problem with checking it with security as long as I could retrieve it on the way out.
Just curious, many basics and medics carry some similar in this area.


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## Hockey (Mar 21, 2009)

I had a hanging.  Patient was still alive.  Very alive

Partner had shears.  Guess what, the rope was thick enough that it wouldn't cut.

I had a knife and went to town on the rope.  Did it save the patients life?  I don't know if it was that, or we just got there in time.  But the shears wouldn't do much for that.

Oh well


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## fortsmithman (Mar 22, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> I am also surprised at the number of ambulance personnel that get offended when asked by security to show ID.



Why get offended.  When asked I will show my service ID.  I'll show it to anyone who asks.  I'll show it because of how easy it is to get online a complete EMS uniform.  I'll show it to prove to the person that I am who I say I am and not someone who would do them harm.


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## 281mustang (Mar 22, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Perhaps these security guards had heard that terrorists were attempting to use ambulances to commit their horrific crimes.  Heck that fact has even been on the news.  Maybe they thought they were preventing such acts.  Why get onto them for trying to do their job?


 You can't be serious. Somthing tells me that some random community in the middle of rural Texas wouldn't be the top locations for terrorist organizations to plan their attack. Besides, I'm sure taking an extra 60 seconds to enter the community from the outskirts via foot would be much more economically feasible as opposed to buying an ambulance.



VentMedic said:


> If I am paying association fees at a gated community for security, they darn well better check the crredentials of all who try to enter. Hence, the reason for a gated community. Again, the easiest way to gain access to one of these communities is to pose as a public service worker or health care professional. Even home health nurses go through the same screenin process. As a member of that gated community, I would have sued the PD for interfering with the safety of the members of that community by preventing the security company from doing their job by denying access to my place of residence. I want no one in my home without authorization from me.
> 
> If the community as a whole authorized or requested repairs, there should be a number of a board member or another person that can authorize entrance. Public Service companies are usually aware of the rules or how these communities function and there is rarely a problem.


 I'm sorry, but if you think your "gated community" is going to keep anyone out with the exception of the couple from the community next door that came by and gossip about the lack of trees and sub-par trim work you're sadly mistaken.


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## VentMedic (Mar 22, 2009)

281mustang said:


> You can't be serious. Somthing tells me that some random community in the middle of rural Texas wouldn't be the top locations for terrorist organizations to plan their attack. Besides, I'm sure taking an extra 60 seconds to enter the community from the outskirts via foot would be much more economically feasible as opposed to buying an ambulance.


 It would be the perfect place to make plans for attacks especially if the community is full of people like you who wouldn't think of such a thing. Who ever thought the WTC Twin Towers would have been taken down? And that wasn't the WTC's first attack by terrorists. How many of the terrorists blended with the locals? What about our home grown terrorists? Do you even know anything about the bombings in Oklahoma City or Atanta? 

Where these events even mentioned in your high school classes?



281mustang said:


> I'm sorry, but if you think your "gated community" is going to keep anyone out with the exception of the couple from the community next door that came by and gossip about the lack of trees and sub-par trim work you're sadly mistaken.


 
For someone who lists their location as Florida, you don't have a clue about "gated communities" or secure condo complexes. While they might not prevent all from entering, they can prevent a bogus Public Service worker from entering if they do not have the proper ID or my permission to enter my house or condo especially if the Security Officers are doing their job.


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## AJ Hidell (Mar 22, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> I know you understand the reasoning for shutting off an ambulance that is near a building entrance. Disrespecting the health and safety of others because of whatever power trip you are on at the time to prove a security guard wrong does not make the situation right.


No power trip.  Just the occasional guard who didn't like the noise decided that he would flex his muscle, and I wasn't having it.  Everytime I turn an ambulance off on my shift was one more time that it might not start, thus it stayed on.  And this was before people started writing articles about CO collecting at ER docks.



> If I am paying association fees at a gated community for security, they darn well better check the crredentials of all who try to enter.


They had also darn well better allow the public utility companies do their job to keep my water, electricity, phone, and cable TV working.  And the gated communities have no legal right to keep them out (at least in the state I was working at the time).  Utility workers have plenty of maintenance and inspection work to do on their right-of-way even when nobody has called in a work order.  The law allows them access to that right-of-way, and any clueless security guard who doesn't know that is not qualified to be doing the job.  Sorry, but your HOA dues can't buy more protection when the law allows.  When they put their hands on the guy -- who was in full uniform, with a company ID on his shirt, and in a company vehicle -- they sealed their own fate, not me.


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## fortsmithman (Mar 22, 2009)

I'm with a paid on call service my regular job is as a security and safety officer at a local dept store.  Before I joined EMS I only had one experience with the service.  That was when an elderly lady collapsed outside the store.  I called the ambulance and when it got there I stayed out of the way of the crew.  I also kept some other people back and out of the way of the crew.


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## reaper (Mar 22, 2009)

When it comes to utility companies (electric,gas,phone and cable) They all have right of way easement rights. These are put down before the property is even developed. They have the right to access these easements any time day or night. This goes for housing developments or private property. I have watch many people forcibly removed from their own property by LEO, who were denying access to a utility worker. As AJ pointed out, any guard with half a brain should know this. It is part of their job.

I have never had a problem with a security guard, while on the ambulance. Some times it just takes a little talking to straighten things out. Now if they tried to detain me by force, then I would just call a second unit in, to transport them to the hospital!


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## VentMedic (Mar 22, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> No power trip. Just the occasional guard who didn't *like the noise* decided that he would flex his muscle, and I wasn't having it. Everytime I turn an ambulance off on my shift was one more time that it might not start, thus it stayed on. And this was before people started writing articles about CO collecting at ER docks.


 
You did realize you were at a hospital? Even without take CO measurements we knew about fumes and CO over 30 years ago. When I was a kid, parents would talk about not running the car engine in the garage or just idling for any length of time. 




AJ Hidell said:


> They had also darn well better allow the public utility companies do their job to keep my water, electricity, phone, and cable TV working. And the gated communities have no legal right to keep them out (at least in the state I was working at the time). Utility workers have plenty of maintenance and inspection work to do on their right-of-way even when nobody has called in a work order. The law allows them access to that right-of-way, and any clueless security guard who doesn't know that is not qualified to be doing the job. Sorry, but your HOA dues can't buy more protection when the law allows. When they put their hands on the guy -- who was in full uniform, with a company ID on his shirt, and in a company vehicle -- they sealed their own fate, not me.


 
As I stated before, the public service companies know the procedure. Not all are as ill informed as this one cable guy. You said nothing about water and electric. Did the cable guy not know enough to call his supervisor or some member of his company before he resorted to destroying property? I hope his company paid for the damage he caused. It really isn't as difficult as you make it out to be. Do you know how many different cable and dish companies we have in some areas? If they can not provide valid ID or a valid reason to enter, no entry. We all know you can purchase uniforms just about anywhere and toss a few tools in a utility truck to gain entrance if one wants to. 

If I did not make arrangements with the cable company, they can not enter my house unless it is an emergency. Not having cable does not constitute an emergency for them to have access to my house.


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## VentMedic (Mar 22, 2009)

reaper said:


> When it comes to utility companies (electric,gas,phone and cable) They all have right of way easement rights. These are put down before the property is even developed. They have the right to access these easements any time day or night. This goes for housing developments or private property. I have watch many people forcibly removed from their own property by LEO, who were denying access to a utility worker. As AJ pointed out, any guard with half a brain should know this. It is part of their job.


 
Yes they have the right of way on easements but not to enter a house unless there is a true emergency. But, they still should be properly identified. 

What TV cable emergency warrants destroying property to gain entrance when a phone call would have been easier? It sounds like this was just some guy looking for a fight.  It is too bad the security officers had to take the fall for it.


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## reaper (Mar 22, 2009)

The way I read it was the guy wanted on the property for maintanace of the lines, not in the house. The guard would not let him in, unless he was going to a specific resident.


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## VentMedic (Mar 22, 2009)

reaper said:


> The way I read it was the guy wanted on the property for maintanace of the lines, not in the house. The guard would not let him in, unless he was going to a specific resident.


 
And even at that the service companies know how to gain entrance without a big hassle.   It really isn't that big of a deal since security officers deal with this all the time for the property maintenance and indivduals who have service repaired or installed.  It just sounds like this guy wanted to be a bully and destroy property to show how important his cable service was. Hopefully the residents dumped that cable company if the repairs had to come out of the HOA funds.


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## AJ Hidell (Mar 22, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> As I stated before, the public service companies know the procedure. Not all are as ill informed as this one cable guy.


The cable guy was quite well informed.  That's why he chose to ignore the security guard.



> You said nothing about water and electric.


That's because the story was not about them.



> Did the cable guy not know enough to call his supervisor or some member of his company before he resorted to destroying property? I hope his company paid for the damage he caused.


Whoa, wait... what destroyed property?  :unsure:



> Do you know how many different cable and dish companies we have in some areas?


No, but I know that around there, cable is a monopoly just like EMS, and there is only one provider, so it is not an issue.



> If they can not provide valid ID or a valid reason to enter, no entry. We all know you can purchase uniforms just about anywhere and toss a few tools in a utility truck to gain entrance if one wants to.


Heck, anyone can purchase security guard uniforms too, so maybe we should ignore them all because they might not be genuine?  It's the same concept.



> If I did not make arrangements with the cable company, they can not enter my house unless it is an emergency. Not having cable does not constitute an emergency for them to have access to my house.


Like Reaper said, they weren't going into anyone's house.  They were going to check on their lines, which run throughout the community.  An emergency is not needed in order to entitle them to access to their lines and equipment.  And denying them such access is a crime.  Denying them access by force is another crime.  And detaining them in the process is yet another crime.  Any commissioned security officer should know this.  And if they do not know this, ignorance of the law is no excuse.


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## reaper (Mar 22, 2009)

Sorry, I worked in the cable business as a line tech. This is not how it is done. They will give advanced warning of repairs, if they can. When you are tracking a problem, you may need to access the equipment on the property. I see no where that says he was there to destroy property. The problem may have been 5 blocks away, but it may be coming from the equipment on that property.

I would have explained that to the guard, not ran the gate. That was out of line. But, if a guard had refused access, then I would call LEO. I would be working on my problem, while the guard was being booked!


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## bstone (Mar 22, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> The only problems I've ever had with security guards in EMS is the occasional hospital guard who thinks I need to turn my ambulance off while it is parked at the ER dock.  That ain't happening, and he's not going to be able to get into my locked ambulance to do it himself, so they are sometimes unhappy about that.  Oh well.
> 
> While a police officer, I once responded to a security guard situation.  A cable TV technician went to a gated community to check lines.  A gate guard refused to let him in without a resident to specifically authorize him to their home.  The tech blew the gate and went in anyhow.  Two guards chased him down and held him for police.  When I got there, I arrested both guards for assault and unlawful detention.  I'm betting the cable company had no further problems there.



Please tell me the guards were in full uniform with badges and all and that's how they sat in the jail cell. I love stories like this.


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## fortsmithman (Mar 22, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> While a police officer, I once responded to a security guard situation.  A cable TV technician went to a gated community to check lines.  A gate guard refused to let him in without a resident to specifically authorize him to their home.  The tech blew the gate and went in anyhow.  Two guards chased him down and held him for police.  When I got there, I arrested both guards for assault and unlawful detention.  I'm betting the cable company had no further problems there.



If that were to happen here the odds are very good that the crown prosecutor would call no evidence in this matter.  That means that the charges would be dropped.  Here in the NWT cable TV is not an essential utility.  Telephone, water, and electrical corp are essential utilities.  The tech in this case would be facing prosecution in this matter.  The charge would be mischief to property.  It would probably be tried summarily.  Here in Canada our criminal code only has two type of offences those tried summarily (summary conviction) and indictable offences.  Mischief is a dual procedure offence which means it can be tried as a ummary conviction  or as an indictable offence.


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## VentMedic (Mar 22, 2009)

reaper said:


> Sorry, I worked in the cable business as a line tech. This is not how it is done. They will give advanced warning of repairs, if they can. When you are tracking a problem, you may need to access the equipment on the property. I see no where that says he was there to destroy property. The problem may have been 5 blocks away, but it may be coming from the equipment on that property.


 
If the gate is in the down position when you blow through it, you can damage or destroy it.   

If someone can not identify why they are entering property with a decent explanation, he needs to make the necessary phone calls to allow someone who can.

Depending on the size of this community, the Security officers many see  50 different service people come and go during their shift.  Yet, one cable guy decides to act like a jerk.   If he couldn't provide a valid reason to satisfy them, he could also have been entering for personal reasons.  People wearing all types of uniforms do occasionally abuse it for their own agenda.


----------



## reaper (Mar 22, 2009)

Yes, this is true.

I doubt the gate was down. That would cause damage to the truck and that is to much paperwork!


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## 281mustang (Mar 22, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> It would be the perfect place to make plans for attacks especially if the community is full of people like you who wouldn't think of such a thing. Who ever thought the WTC Twin Towers would have been taken down? And that wasn't the WTC's first attack by terrorists. How many of the terrorists blended with the locals? What about our home grown terrorists? Do you even know anything about the bombings in Oklahoma City or Atanta?
> 
> Where these events even mentioned in your high school classes?


 The 9/11 and Oklahoma City attacks we're for the most part done to make a statement against the government, and the Atlanta bombing was just some nutjob that got his jollys off from detonating a bomb in the middle of a croud. Somehow I don't think any those are interchangeable with detonading a pipe bomb in the Fun in the Sun gated community in Twin Falls, Idaho.



			
				VentMedic said:
			
		

> While they might not prevent all from entering


 No, only those that don't feel up for the 200' detour to bypass the gate.


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## firecoins (Mar 22, 2009)

deleted my comments


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## VentMedic (Mar 22, 2009)

281mustang said:


> The 9/11 and Oklahoma City attacks we're for the most part done to make a statement against the government, and the Atlanta bombing was just some nutjob that got his jollys off from detonating a bomb in the middle of a croud. Somehow I don't think any those are interchangeable with detonading a pipe bomb in the Fun in the Sun gated community in Twin Falls, Idaho.


 
That is a very naive paragraph.  I guess I was right they aren't teaching must in high school any more. 

BTW, spell check is a great feature available on this forum.


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## AJ Hidell (Mar 22, 2009)

bstone said:


> Please tell me the guards were in full uniform with badges and all and that's how they sat in the jail cell.


Yep!  Although, sans badges by the time they got to a cell.

There was no property damage.  With a manned guard shack, the gate remained open.  I seriously doubt the tech would have physically crashed a gate, and my response would have been different if he had.

The tech had more than ample identification, being both in uniform and in a company vehicle full of company equipment and paperwork.  There was zero reason to doubt his identity, and state law gives security guards NO right whatsoever to decide whether the tech's business is legitimate or not.  Security guards in that state are given training on all of the laws that they violated in detaining the tech.  They know better.  They blew it.


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## daedalus (Mar 22, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> Yep!  Although, sans badges by the time they got to a cell.
> 
> There was no property damage.  With a manned guard shack, the gate remained open.  I seriously doubt the tech would have physically crashed a gate, and my response would have been different if he had.


Oh man, it is satisfying when someone gets what is coming to them. How embarrassing.


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## 281mustang (Mar 22, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> That is a very naive paragraph.  I guess I was right they aren't teaching must in high school any more.


 Naive? How?



VentMedic said:


> BTW, spell check is a great feature available on this forum.


 So I should of ended "jollies" with an ies and had an obvious typo(detonating), but unless "must" is now a high school subject it doesn't look like I'm the only one not proofreading their posts.


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## gicts (Mar 22, 2009)

They always tell us to quit parking next to the doors 

"So where should we park?"
"Not here, not ere! You can't park here blah blah blah"


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## Buzz (Mar 22, 2009)

We have one gated community around here that we frequently respond to. Never have had an issue with the security guards there, as we bypass the gate anyways because the rig doesn't fit under the roof of the guard house. We instead have to drive through the outgoing traffic side to get into the complex. It's a poorly designed system.


I've noticed most hospitals around here using security codes to enter the ER now. While it's not effective in the least, it keeps people from mistakenly going into the ambulance entrance rather than the regular entrance.


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## fortsmithman (Mar 22, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> Yep!  Although, sans badges by the time they got to a cell.
> 
> There was no property damage.  With a manned guard shack, the gate remained open.  I seriously doubt the tech would have physically crashed a gate, and my response would have been different if he had.
> 
> The tech had more than ample identification, being both in uniform and in a company vehicle full of company equipment and paperwork.  There was zero reason to doubt his identity, and state law gives security guards NO right whatsoever to decide whether the tech's business is legitimate or not.  Security guards in that state are given training on all of the laws that they violated in detaining the tech.  They know better.  They blew it.



Since the gate was opened and not damaged then no charges against the cable guy.  I'm curious when did cable tv become a essential utility.  I can see telephone, electrical, water, and the gas comany as an essential utility but cable tv.  What the security guards should have done is contact the cable company to verify that there is a legit work order.   After getting confirmation from the cable company they would have let the cable go do what he needed to do.


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## fortsmithman (Mar 22, 2009)

While i've been involved in EMS fo a little over a year I've been involved in private security on and off since Nov 1985.  A few years ago I was place in charge of a venue at a music festival and I had this idiot of a guard who thought he was a police officer.  He bossed everyone around exceeding his authority and swearing a lot.  I had numerous talks with the guard it didn't any good as I could not fire him.  There were  a couple of incidents where I thought his actions would get him sued me as his supervisor sued and the festival sued.  Luckily we didn't get sued.


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## Aidey (Mar 22, 2009)

Buzz said:


> I've noticed most hospitals around here using security codes to enter the ER now. While it's not effective in the least, it keeps people from mistakenly going into the ambulance entrance rather than the regular entrance.



At our big hospital we have what I believe are RFID fobs. There is a reader outside the ambulance door, and the 2 authorized sets of keys for each rig have a fob on it that you have to wave in front of the door to get in. 

It's not fool proof because someone could get a hold of the keys, but since they don't have the company name or anything on them it's not obvious what the fob is for. All the other hospitals use door codes.


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## medicdan (Mar 23, 2009)

Certainly. I dont know of any ER in the area with unsecured ambulance entrance doors, or ER doors of any sort. Anywhere I go patients and visitors either need to be escorted in by staff, or have an access card themself. As well, many of the entrances are manned by guards, to let non-local crews in and attend to the "homeboy ambulances".


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## reaper (Mar 23, 2009)

fortsmithman said:


> Since the gate was opened and not damaged then no charges against the cable guy.  I'm curious when did cable tv become a essential utility.  I can see telephone, electrical, water, and the gas comany as an essential utility but cable tv.  What the security guards should have done is contact the cable company to verify that there is a legit work order.   After getting confirmation from the cable company they would have let the cable go do what he needed to do.



As I explained earlier. The cable company may not even know he is there. When they are tracking a problem, it can take them over a huge area. They do not call in every time they change locations.

You would not think cable TV is an essential utility, until their TV goes out and they throw a big hissy fit. Most people get more upset when the TV goes out, over when the phone goes out.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 23, 2009)

fortsmithman said:


> I'm curious when did cable tv become a essential utility.  I can see telephone, electrical, water, and the gas comany as an essential utility but cable tv.



While not an essential utility as you describe, the cable company owns the cables all the way up to the demarcation box on the house, and they have the right to inspect, repair, or work on their property at any time without interference from the homeowners or their representatives.


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## fortsmithman (Mar 23, 2009)

What about cble on armed forces bases.  If the cable company has no record of a valid work rder then the gate MPs will not let them in.  If they try to blast through the gate of a military base then they may end up getting shot. especially in this day and age and the war on terror.


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## fortsmithman (Mar 23, 2009)

reaper said:


> As I explained earlier. The cable company may not even know he is there. When they are tracking a problem, it can take them over a huge area. They do not call in every time they change locations.
> 
> You would not think cable TV is an essential utility, until their TV goes out and they throw a big hissy fit. Most people get more upset when the TV goes out, over when the phone goes out.



If the cable company doesn't know where there employees are then it's sloppy management on the part of the cable company.


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## reaper (Mar 23, 2009)

I have never had a problem getting on any Military base. There are certain areas that you must have security clearance to work in. Other then that, no problems. The MP's know what is going on!


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## reaper (Mar 23, 2009)

fortsmithman said:


> If the cable company doesn't know where there employees are then it's sloppy management on the part of the cable company.



Man, you need to know the business. You work alone and you may run between areas 20 times, while working on a problem. All the Cable company knows is what area you are in. Has nothing to do with sloppy management. It is part of the job.


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## VentMedic (Mar 23, 2009)

281mustang said:


> The 9/11 and Oklahoma City attacks we're for the most part done to make a statement against the government, and the Atlanta bombing was just some nutjob that got his jollys off from detonating a bomb in the middle of a croud. Somehow I don't think any those are interchangeable with detonading a pipe bomb in the Fun in the Sun gated community in Twin Falls, Idaho.


 
Yeah, who cares if a bunch of adults and kids get blown up in Idaho by terrorists either domestic or foreign.


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## PapaBear434 (Mar 23, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Yeah, who cares if a bunch of adults and kids get blown up in Idaho by terrorists either domestic or foreign.



I think he meant that an attack there is not exactly likely.  Terrorists usually go for big targets that get attention.  Blowing up a truck in the middle of a culdesac and maybe damaging a few cars sitting in driveways with shrapnel would get a couple news snippet mentions and maybe a week in the "crawl" at the bottom of the screen.  Not what they are going for.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 23, 2009)

fortsmithman said:


> What about cble on armed forces bases.  If the cable company has no record of a valid work rder then the gate MPs will not let them in.  If they try to blast through the gate of a military base then they may end up getting shot. especially in this day and age and the war on terror.



We need to get back on topic here, but just to clarify one point...MP's are Military POLICE, with all powers associated with being law enforcement.  Security guards are NOT the police.  Also, most utility companies that work on a military base have one or two people pre-cleared with the proper authorizations to get on to the base.


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## reaper (Mar 23, 2009)

I thought this thread was about security guards over stepping their bounds? These are all examples of that, so it is on topic with the thread, correct?


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## VentMedic (Mar 23, 2009)

PapaBear434 said:


> I think he meant that an attack there is not exactly likely. Terrorists usually go for big targets that get attention. Blowing up a truck in the middle of a culdesac and maybe damaging a few cars sitting in driveways with shrapnel would get a couple news snippet mentions and maybe a week in the "crawl" at the bottom of the screen. Not what they are going for.


 
You might be surprised at some of the places that are listed as possible targets.

While Idaho may not have a World Trade Center, a well placed bomb could do serious damage and cause death especially if others feel it can not happen to their area or some don't care about such areas to consider those lives valuable. 

*Back to the topic*, just like EMS, each state may have its own standards and regulatrions for Security Guards. You can have poorly educated Security Guards just like you can have poorly educated EMT(P)s. Those in EMS get upset when someone questions their decisions and constantly complain about the low wages. Those working as Security Guards face many of the same issues. Also in common, not many in either group may take the initiative to advance through education and may have the same excuses why they can't obtain a better education.


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## Jon (Mar 23, 2009)

Wow... so much hating on Security Officers.... and Guards 

I've worked as a Security Officer/EMT, off and on, for about 5 years. I've worked in office complexes, worked for the local hospital, and currently work at a steel mill.

Any GOOD security operation has a VERY thick procedure manual that says what they can and can't do. These manuals aren’t written overnight, and contain LOTS of stuff.  A few points here – sometimes the officer will get his wires crossed and mix up steps between two infrequently used policies (like getting the names of every responder for a break-in, but only getting apparatus numbers for a fire alarm). These rules are usually approved by the lawyer folks, as well as upper management and back up what the officers do. Further, if security is sub-contracted, the security company and “client” management agree on these rules.



A note about the gates you see in many places. Often, they are DESIGNED to break away on impact, with pre-scored plastic hardware that breaks off when enough force is applied - so if you drive through it, it will tick them off, but not cause property damage. One local gated community gives out remote openers for their gates to PD/FD/EMS, but also tells them that they can crash the gate if the remote doesn't work... just let them know afterwards so they can replace the gate arm.


I've worked with some folks who tried to micromanage everything and wanted everyone’s names for everything... If you can, leave the situation, then report it up the chain, and it should be dealt with. Worst case, give the name, then make a stink about it.

  As for the RN who got ticked when her patient had to be searched? Tough. Many hospitals are locking doors and/or searching folks. 

Also, recognize that many security folks really are trying to help, even if in a misguided way (at least in your perspective). Try to get them to help you; don't be adversarial with them if you can avoid it.
/

I've been lucky to work in situations where I interacted positively with EMS and PD... At the hospital, the local PD backed us up with REALLY disruptive patients, but otherwise we were on our own. We also made an effort to assist the officers who came in with subjects in custody for DUI blood draws. The draws were done at triage, right across the ER lobby from our office, so we'd stand so that we could watch what happened... as the officers were always alone, and they had to take their prisoner out of cuffs for the draw. As a whole, they appreciated the extra set of eyes and hands.

At the office complex, we were the medical first responders, so we would have care initiated prior to EMS arrival. Further, we had a procedure in place for a vehicle escort for arriving PD/EMS vehicles.  Additionally, we monitored our own campus fire alarms, so we cleared AFA's without them ever going to the FD... they were just fine with that.




As for licensesure. I am trained as a "lethal weapons agent"... I can carry a firearm for employment. That is the only level of license in PA - There is no minimum training for unarmed guards... the company may be required to have fingerprints on file. As Vent points out, there are many folks who seek training inside and outside of employment, and are great folks. And there are folks who do less than a bump on a log.

Additionally, some of the security companies out there have VERY big training programs, covering everything from the legal points of when you can and can't make a citizens arrest and how to fill out their paperwork correctly to advanced supervision workshops. And some of the fly-by-night places have no training whatsover.


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## Aidey (Mar 23, 2009)

I think the RN had a valid reason for getting upset. The patient was intubted and unconscious after all. If the patient had been conscious, or the flight crew didn't have IDs, so the identity of the whole group was in question I would understand it better.


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## Sapphyre (Mar 24, 2009)

Jon said:


> As for the RN who got ticked when her patient had to be searched? Tough. Many hospitals are locking doors and/or searching folks.
> 
> Also, recognize that many security folks really are trying to help, even if in a misguided way (at least in your perspective). Try to get them to help you; don't be adversarial with them if you can avoid it.



Hey, Jon, not hating on ALL security guards (99% of the ones I've encountered at hospitals, and elsewhere are great), but, there's the crop at the particular hospital that are, um, well, I guess DENSE is the best way to describe them.  Yes, we all understand when we go in there, names are taken and patients are searched.  But it shouldn't take the providers 5-10 minutes to convince the guard of the patient's name.  It shouldn't take the guard having to walk out to look at the side of your rig to convince them of the name of your company, and they SHOULD be looking at you enough during this extremely long interaction, to recognize you when you come BACK out to clean and put your gurney away so that they're not trying to get yet another patient name out of you.

I have had 1 smooth entrance at this particular hospital.  The guard handed over the board, let us put down the name of the patient, and the company, while he wanded the patient, and in we went, simple.


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## VentMedic (Mar 24, 2009)

Aidey said:


> I think the RN had a valid reason for getting upset. The patient was intubted and unconscious after all. If the patient had been conscious, or the flight crew didn't have IDs, so the identity of the whole group was in question I would understand it better.


 
I take it you haven't been around many intubated patients. One minute they can be on a paralytic and then next minute they can be trying to jump out of the bed depending on the other meds and the titration skills of the RN. 

This has also been the controvesey with Paramedics and RSI or even doing CCT in some areas. They don't alsways have the protocols to keep a patient adequately sedated with an ETT and ventilator. Hopefully this RN did have this capability but then she probably only knew the patient for a few minutes and may not know the tolerace for the medications.

The rules should be for all and not selective nor should one assume anything about a patient's condition especially if that patient is known to the provider for only a short time.

Again, this Security Officer has the responsibility of many when it comes to safety and not just one patient.


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## VentMedic (Mar 24, 2009)

Apologies for the typos in the previous post.



Sapphyre said:


> Hey, Jon, not hating on ALL security guards (99% of the ones I've encountered at hospitals, and elsewhere are great), but, there's the crop at the particular hospital that are, um, well, I guess DENSE is the best way to describe them. Yes, we all understand when we go in there, names are taken and patients are searched. But it shouldn't take the providers 5-10 minutes to convince the guard of the patient's name. It shouldn't take the guard having to walk out to look at the side of your rig to convince them of the name of your company, and they SHOULD be looking at you enough during this extremely long interaction, to recognize you when you come BACK out to clean and put your gurney away so that they're not trying to get yet another patient name out of you.
> 
> I have had 1 smooth entrance at this particular hospital. The guard handed over the board, let us put down the name of the patient, and the company, while he wanded the patient, and in we went, simple.


 
This depends on the size of the hospital and the requirements of their security. Just our ED will see over 100 ambulance in a 12 hour shift on some days. That might even be considered a slow day. That doesn't include the numerous transfers with many different services of all types to many areas of the hospital including dialyisis. We have ambulances, fire rescues, medi-vans, wheel chair coaches, community assist transport etc all coming and going from many entrances. Some may enter one way and exit another way if they want a cup of coffee or to take the scenic route back to their vehicle. We also get many out of county, out of state and out of the country transport teams that may not understand life in the big city or the reasons for our security. However, our LEOs will not allow abusive behavior against our Security Officers regardless of your title and will not hesitate to step in to settle the matter. When you are arguing with people who are also trying to do their job and fail to respect the ways of that facility, you probably don't have the best interest of your patient in mind but rather your own ego agenda to settle. This may not be the case every where and there will be some in every profession to muddy the procedure. 

For our patients, we have a large variety, some of which use fictious names. While those will still get medical care, they will be entered into the system for followup with the LEOs and whatever agency that might be interested.

BTW, we do get patients transferred to our facility that should have been taken elsewhere. We've even gotten STEMI pts going to the cath lab...just not ours but the one in another hospital a few blocks away. An alert Security Officer caught the mistake at the entrance. We've had patients almost taken mistakenly from our ED by transport/transfer services but fortunately someone did their job and double checked the numbers including the birthdate and not just the name.

I personally value the job the Security Officers and LEOs do at our hospital. When you see as many injuries as we do in one shift come through our ED on some days, you must respect the potential for anything at any time from some patients and even the health care providers.


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## daedalus (Mar 24, 2009)

> Hey, Jon, not hating on ALL security guards (99% of the ones I've encountered at hospitals, and elsewhere are great), but, there's the crop at the particular hospital that are, um, well, I guess DENSE is the best way to describe them. Yes, we all understand when we go in there, names are taken and patients are searched. But it shouldn't take the providers 5-10 minutes to convince the guard of the patient's name. It shouldn't take the guard having to walk out to look at the side of your rig to convince them of the name of your company, and they SHOULD be looking at you enough during this extremely long interaction, to recognize you when you come BACK out to clean and put your gurney away so that they're not trying to get yet another patient name out of you.
> 
> I have had 1 smooth entrance at this particular hospital. The guard handed over the board, let us put down the name of the patient, and the company, while he wanded the patient, and in we went, simple.


I agree. Most of the time no problems. BTW, Sapphyre was able to, in one guess, name the particular hospital which held up the CCT crew. In this case, I go to Dr. Charles Mayo, who has said that which is the best interest of the patient, is the only interest to be considered. 

I disagree with stopping a critical patient at the door for security purposes. I disagree with uneducated guards attempting to interfere with a CCT crew. It is funny that the education advocates so willingly step up to bat for guards, who need a GED and an age of 18. Apparently, the upper echelons of management at my service agree and so did the cath lab nurses.


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## Aidey (Mar 24, 2009)

I agree with you Daedalus. Maybe the guards at that particular hospital need some additional education so they can tell the difference between a security risk and a dying patient who needs to get the heck out of there ASAP. 

While someone may screw up the dosages on the medication thus enabling a sedated patient to wake up, wanding them for weapons is absurd. Yes they may be a security risk if they wake up, but there is a difference between a patient that may freak out and one that is likely to have gun. There is something to be said for accurately assessing the level of risk a patient poses.


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## VentMedic (Mar 24, 2009)

quote by daedalus





> I disagree with stopping a critical patient at the door for security purposes. I disagree with uneducated guards attempting to interfere with a CCT crew. It is funny that the education advocates so willingly step up to bat for guards, a GED and an age of 18. Apparently, the upper echelons of management at my service agree and so did the cath lab nurses.


 


Aidey said:


> I agree with you Daedalus. Maybe the guards at that particular hospital need some additional education so they can tell the difference between a security risk and a dying patient who needs to get the heck out of there ASAP.


 
Is this how you treat scene safety in the field?
As for the education, EMT requirements are the same with all you need is who need a GED, an age of 18 and a whopping 110 hours of training. Many hospital security guards may get much more training than that. 

If your nurse is so insecure that she/he can not allow a few seconds for a quick scan to happen, it is time for that person to go back to the ICUs for more training/education. Even doctors in a trauma bay will step back to allow security and LEOs ensure there are no weapons being brought in inadvertently by rescue or flight. Many times we will find weapons in the clothes that have been removed which would go with the patient to whatever room later. Luckily our Security Guards are aware of this and try everything they can to prevent this from happening and allowing someone in the hospital to be severely injured even by not knowing the weapon is in the bag when someone handles it. Even when coming in by flight from a night scene, a weapon might be missed by the crew. I will admit I myself have missed a couple of weapons on patients with the baggy britches that we cut off and tossed aside. It is not fun to see a gun hit the floor. 

Perhaps DT4EMS can join in here and give you some stats on how many hospital healthcare workers are injured each year, many by weapons that get brought in. There are reasons things are done the way they are. The security officers can not and should not just racially profile or only scan those that look real mean. 

When I was on the ground ambulances, I have turned over enough weapons to PD or security at the hospital door to arm a small country. I have seen even more retrieved by our security at the doors of the hospital. At least they aren't making it to the ED treatment areas. Right now I am looking at a prisoner restrained to the bed with 2 armed C.O.s at his side. Our own Security are also making more frequent rounds. And yes, the patient is well sedated and on a ventilator. It doesn't matter when it comes to the safety of our staff. 

Some you may live in Pleasantville where everything is black and white but even there it has potential to have grey areas. Just like any other scene safety, rule on the side of caution. It the patient is critical, just tell the guard you are in a hurry with showing your arse by pitching a fit and wasting more time. If your lack of respect for the safety of others gets a member of the hospital staff severely injured or killed, while you may not care, that person still had a family to go home to. 

daedalus,
In California, the term CCT is used even when a heplock or room air trached patient is being transported. Thus, just because they are CCT does not necessary mean they are transporting a crtical patient. So, if you try to toss that out with each of your transports to expedite things, it would be like crying wolf each time. That gets old with many people and not just the Security Guards. 

There is a good phrase to remember for any type of scene safety:
"Fools rush in".

Be glad you don't work in some hospitals like those I work at or take patients to because we do not tolerate people pitching a fit or endangering the medical staff. We would probably be saying when are those EMT(P)s 





> need some additional education


 to know what a security risk is and *respect the hosptial staff enough to ensure their environment is safe.*


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## Aidey (Mar 24, 2009)

I don't think I'm the one looking at this as a black and white situation here.


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## Sasha (Mar 24, 2009)

When does the best interest of one patient outweigh the safety of patients and staff?


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## Shishkabob (Mar 24, 2009)

Sasha said:


> When does the best interest of one patient outweigh the safety of patients and staff?



When that one patient is me.



But I'm totally in agreement with Vent... strange.


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## Aidey (Mar 24, 2009)

It's a matter of properly assessing that risk Sasha. Pt John Doe picked up off the side of the street from behind the ole 1 hour motel with an ALOC is a different risk than Pt Mark Smith, information known, being transferred by a CCT from ICU room 123 at Hospital ABC to the Cath Lab at Hospital QRS.


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## Sasha (Mar 24, 2009)

Aidey said:


> It's a matter of properly assessing that risk Sasha. Pt John Doe picked up off the side of the street from behind the ole 1 hour motel with an ALOC is a different risk than Pt Mark Smith, information known, being transferred by a CCT from ICU room 123 at Hospital ABC to the Cath Lab at Hospital QRS.



okay. an assesment of the risk. but lets do an assesment of the benefit. will the time you are stopped to clear security make a difference with the patient? if they are seriously that critical, aren't they pretty much dead anyway?


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## medic417 (Mar 24, 2009)

Whats that rule in EMS?  Oh yeah my safety, my partners safety, etc, patient is down the list.  Perhaps the security guards have something similar and again our patient is way down the list.


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## VentMedic (Mar 24, 2009)

Aidey said:


> I don't think I'm the one looking at this as a black and white situation here.


 
Have you not ever been in a situation that involved weapons?

It just takes a split second to make the wrong decision that can cost you your life or the life of others. 

Do you think those 4 dead Oakland Police Officers might have done something differently or been more cautious with a "routine traffic stop" if they could retake the past and be alive again? 

Don't play roulette with your partner's life or the lives of others by thinking only with your ego. Get more comfortable with CCT by trying to observe in an ICU. Go to a large city ED and see what types of patients they see everyday. You may not even have to go to a big city to see some of these things. Being cocky and bypassing safeguards that are in place for a reason is not a wise idea. You can just tell the security guard you are in a rush and need him/her to get the necessities out of the quickly. You don't have to be a **** about it or start pitching a fit. A few seconds is not that much time when it can prevent the staff from being injured.

Safety first.


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## Aidey (Mar 24, 2009)

And this ladies and gentlemen is exactaly where we get when people become so deeply entrenched into seeing something as black and white that all common sense flies right out the window.


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## daedalus (Mar 24, 2009)

Exactly. I do not disagree with VentMedic, but lets flip the situation around. What if the patient went into cardiac arrest, very possible since had a hx of arrest at the sending hospital. Would we wait as the guard searched the patient, interrupting compressions to do so? This patient was too close to risk waiting around, according to my interpretation of the situation. Would the guard be in trouble, civilly? You bet...


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## Aidey (Mar 24, 2009)

Safety is definitely important, I don't disagree with that at all. 

This scenario can be applied to how we do things in the field. The police do not clear every single scene before we enter. They respond based upon the information gathered during the dispatch and the nature of the call. Essentially each call is evaluated for the need for police, if the assessment indicates police are needed they respond. 

I think it would be much more appropriate if hospital security guards did the same thing. Having a security guard wand every single patient, even the CCT and IFT transfers, is just as impractical as having the police clear the scene of every single 911 call.


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## VentMedic (Mar 25, 2009)

Aidey said:


> I think it would be much more appropriate if hospital security guards did the same thing. Having a security guard wand every single patient, even the CCT and IFT transfers, is just as impractical as having the *police clear the scene of every single 911 call*.


 
So what do you suggest? Just wand those from the bad neighborhoods? Maybe just the blacks? Or the hispanics? Are you going to "profile" the patients by race and economic status? Are you going to give the address of each patient so the security guard can determine if that address is one that falls into the guidelines of "clearing the scene"? So no, this should not be a black and white issue. 

No, you treat every one the same. It will be the ones you least suspect that will be the problem. 

Ever wonder why the ambulances were used to carry the bombs in the earlier examples? Ever wonder why some EMT(P)s used their jobs to transport drugs? They can usually go places without question.

Have a little respect for the facilities and their staff that you are transporting to. Your comments lead me to believe you are still very inexperienced and may not have seen much violence so your judge of character might be a little off. I don't boast to always be a good judge of character because I have had those that were not in any of the above mentioned groups but instead were white, all American, middle or upper class come in with some impressive weapons. Thus, I do rely on our security or LEOs to do their jobs.

The two of you probably complain about the entrance codes at the EDs also. Maybe you also complain when an LEO tells you to move your truck to a safer area at a scene. 

The hospital can control their own environment better that the PDs can covering a huge area. Patients and staff have a right to feel reasonably safe within the walls of a hospital. It is a shame that the biggest threat to them may be EMT(P)s with attitudes that don't care about them because they are not their patients.   So, yes, the liability issue has been examined and it is in favor of safety for all, not just a few whom you believe to be worthy of it. 

If you don't agree, just see if you can tell the doctor at the sending facility to get the patient accepted at another hospital so that mean Security Guard won't ask you where you are going and wand your patient if this small but important inconvenience bothers you so much that you can not see why some hospitals must follow this procedure. Or, just work in the nice neighborhoods so crime and violence won't be an issue for you.



> Would we wait as the guard searched the patient, interrupting compressions to do so? This patient was too close to risk waiting around, according to my interpretation of the situation. Would the guard be in trouble, civilly? You bet...


 
In our facility, the patient in a code situation will have their clothes removed with Security ready to wand and/or take possession of any weapons. You don't need to be working two codes if a gun accidentally discharges. I have seen this happen and it is not a good thing. You can continue to do your job but don't interfere with the job security and the LEOs have. I already gave you other examples of patients coming into trauma and from the helipad. 

Visitors accompanying the patient will pass through a metal detector and must show ID before being allowed anywhere past the front door. NO exceptions. Patients entering the ED main entrance will pass through a Security check with a metal detector. 

Surprising, no one in EMS transporting to our facility has ever complained about our standards because they also know it is for their protection also.


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## Aidey (Mar 25, 2009)

We are talking about the difference between someone coming in off the street and a critical IFT! Whether you want to admit it or not, there is a difference between those two patients and the risk they pose. I never said NO patients should be checked out, just that the security guards should use a little sense and assess who truly poses a risk or not. 

I don't have an issue with door codes, or people wearing ID badges, or having all visitors provide ID and pass through a metal detector. I don't even have a problem with telling a security guard what part of the hospital I'm going to and giving him the Pts initials so he can compare it with the inpatient patch paperwork. (When we are doing direct admits we call ahead with the patch and the nurse fills out a form verifying they talked to us). 

What I do have a huge issue with are people who have no sense and who only see this as a black and white issue with no room for deviation. 

I fully expect you to never ever ever go on another call without having the police clear the scene first Vent. After all, that is the only acceptable thing to do since it's apparently not appropriate to assess each situation individually and they all need to be handled exactaly the same. Even the nursing homes and school. After all, it will be the ones you least expect. 

Right now if I was in Southern California I'm a heck of a lot more worried about dying outside the door of the hospital as the security guard triple checks my ID than being mistreated by an EMT or MICP.


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## Jon (Mar 25, 2009)

Aidey said:


> It's a matter of properly assessing that risk Sasha. Pt John Doe picked up off the side of the street from behind the ole 1 hour motel with an ALOC is a different risk than Pt Mark Smith, information known, being transferred by a CCT from ICU room 123 at Hospital ABC to the Cath Lab at Hospital QRS.


Profiling?

But we can't do that anymore... because it makes people want to sue you!


In all seriousness, when there are exceptions, the rules become easier to break. If all entering patients must be screened, ALL are screened. Even if screening is done IN the trauma resusitation bay by Security going through clothing after the Pt. is naked.


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## VentMedic (Mar 25, 2009)

Aidey said:


> I fully expect you to never ever ever go on another call without having the police clear the scene first Vent. After all, that is the only acceptable thing to do since it's apparently not appropriate to assess each situation individually and they all need to be handled exactaly the same.* Even the nursing homes and school. After all, it will be the ones you least expect. *
> 
> Right now if I was in Southern California I'm a heck of a lot more worried about dying outside the door of the hospital as the security guard triple checks my ID than being mistreated by an EMT or MICP.


 
You don't seem to understand the difference between a controlled environment and the scene. You talk about CCT and IFT but then keep referring to what police do at an outside scene.

The hospital can and will control its environment. A CCT or IFT is also controlled. Often the time you waste during a CCT or IFT chit chatting with the nurses, getting a cup of coffee or trying to gather all the paperwork because your company may have a chaotic system will be a lot longer than what it takes a Security Guard to do their job. You standing there pitching a fit and yelling at a Security Guard will waste even more time. 

And, as I have said and Jon has said, you treat everyone equally. You don't just allow the checks because of their race or economic status because those are more likely to be the criminals. 

On an ambulance you know very little about a patient. If you have met a patient for the first time on a CCT or if this is their first hospital visit to that ED, you have no idea if Mark Smith is his real name or anything about him. The ED will not initially run fingerprints and do a background check. 

You seem to be going by a lot of assumptions based on your own limited experience. You may also have not done enough CCTs to know what type of patients that are transported. You may also not have enough IFT experience to know what even patients in nursing homes are capable of. Some of these patients may be transferred from the ED after medical clearance to a geriatric psych floor for violent tendencies some of which can be assaults with some type of weapon such as a knife. And, do you know why some schools have LEOs on their campus? 

Understanding patient care well enough to be comfortable with critical patients, being cautious, allowing others to do their job, respecting others who have a job to do, following safety rules and understanding why some things are done certain ways have kept me safe and not burnt out after 30 years. 

Getting angry at others for doing their job or pitching a fit at every chance you get because you don't respect the rules at a facility will not help to extend your life in EMS. You seem to be running under the impression that all CCT and EMS is lights and sirens with every thing STAT like you see on TV. Also, profiling patients by race and economic status to determine how they should be treated is not good patient care.


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## VentMedic (Mar 25, 2009)

Here is a good article in the current EMS magazine:

*Pistol-Packin' Patients*

*What to know about legally armed patients and handling handguns safely*

*Updated:* March 25th, 2009 02:06 AM EDT 
From the March 2009 Issue of EMS Magazine 

http://www.emsresponder.com/publication/article.jsp?pubId=1&id=9126

Here's an interesting website with various news articles about hospital security from around the world.
http://www.saione.com/hospsecurity.htm

Yes, there are good and bad in every profession just like the EMS newswires show. But, this should give some an idea about the concerns within a hospital and what Security Guards must deal with both from inside and outside of the hospital.


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## adztec (Apr 12, 2009)

*Previous Security Worker in Indy*

I was working the main entrance of our hospital. It seems like every ambulance wants to deliver patients at the main entrance. It just isn't right to bring a gurney in the main entrance when you have other options, now I work in endoscopy and we travel throughout the hospital to do procedures and we aren't allowed to use main corridors either.:excl:


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## daedalus (Apr 12, 2009)

Actually, most of us hate to bring in patients through the main lobby. We usually do use the main lobby however of the patient is a direct admit and is going to a floor and not the ER. We do this at hospitals with smaller ERs and Smaller ambulance bays to keep the emergency area clear to legitimate traffic. So there probably is a reason your not aware of.


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## xlq771 (Apr 13, 2009)

Years ago I worked security.  The only problem I ever had involving EMS was caused by the client, who didn't bother informing the security desk that there was a medical emergency at the facility I was assigned to, and as such I had no idea where to send the ambulance crew.

Don't some hospitals in the US have their own armed police force?  I know a few hospitals in the Edmonton, Alberta area have their own Alberta Community Peace Officer departments.

Wasn't there an incident a number of years ago at a Buffalo, NY area hospital where a hospital security guard was forced to shoot and kill a person who showed up at the hospital to finish off the victim of a previous attack?


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