# The scene is NEVER 100% safe!



## EMTCop86 (Jan 31, 2009)

So this was drilled into my little head today, all day, for 8 hours. There are degrees of safeness but never completely safe. Our instructor shared a story with us today that happened to one of their friends. 60 y/o female found on the floor in a back bedroom. No pulse, not breathing so they start CPR. There is one paramedic, two firefighters and one sheriff deputy on scene. There is also the 60 year old females son. Well they work her for a while but end up calling it. The son flipped out and threw the paramedic threw a window which severed his brachial artery. He then went after the two fire fighters. The deputy tried to deploy his taser but there was such a struggle that he didn't want to tase the fire fighters. Eventually they were able to get the guy under control and hauled of to jail. I just thought this would be good to share with everyone especially the students like myself. There was also another incident where a paramedic that went through the school I am going through was held hostage with a gun, not sure on specifics of that one though. So anyways just keep your heads up and make sure you know the scene has degrees of safeness but is never completely safe.


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## Sasha (Jan 31, 2009)

Of course the scene is never 100% safe, you can never really predict what people will do under the stress of loosing a loved one, especially when it's called but they aren't ready to let go. However, while you should always keep a heightened sense of what's going on around you, work smart and let no one get between you and your exit, etc. you shouldn't let it interfere with getting the job done :]


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## karaya (Jan 31, 2009)

We can "what if" safe scene scenarios to death and still never arrive at solutions to prevent certain scenes from going berserk. Short of the everyone being removed from every scene and placed under police surveillance while the medics provide care to the patient. Of course this analogy is exaggerated and completely absurd for every EMS incident.

The question is what to do to protect yourself when someone like the patient's son, without warning, decides to flip out on everyone? Getting some training on self defense might be a good start. Perhaps DT4EMS can shed some more light on this subject?


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## medic417 (Jan 31, 2009)

Perhaps we should all start wearing bullet/stab resistant vests and carry a gun?


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## karaya (Jan 31, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Perhaps we should all start wearing bullet/stab resistant vests and carry a gun?


 
Hell, don't get that subject started again!!


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## medic417 (Jan 31, 2009)

karaya said:


> Hell, don't get that subject started again!!



A vest also protects you when your partner makes a mistake driving.  As you bounce off something perhaps it keeps your ribs from breaking and puncturing a lung.  What is wrong with that?


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## DT4EMS (Jan 31, 2009)

I have hundreds and hundreds of stories of scenes that went bad..........told to me from all over the country.

The problem is they remain anecdotal for most. 

I tell people.......... "It's not important to you until it is important to YOU!" It is like a disease. People don't become active in a group until it is important to them. Take cancer for instance....... if you or a loved one has cancer......... you become a huge advocate for the cure.

Well scene safety recognition and training, serious.... not tongue in cheek kind of training, doesn't become a reality until it is important to that person.

So......... if the statistics say all that they say........... (#1 injury in EMS comes from assault, health care providers more likely to be assaulted than cops or prison guards etc.) and agencies still sweep it under the rug..................

How many EMS providers have to be injured before it becomes REAL to those making the training decisions.

Take your scene safety training as serious as you take your patient care training.


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## BossyCow (Jan 31, 2009)

medic417 said:


> A vest also protects you when your partner makes a mistake driving.  As you bounce off something perhaps it keeps your ribs from breaking and puncturing a lung.  What is wrong with that?



Just the illusion of safety is all!


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## medic417 (Jan 31, 2009)

BossyCow said:


> Just the illusion of safety is all!



Actually no it is not an illusion.  How about the vest bull riders wear? Vest absorbs the impact of a bull when worn by a bull rider.  Before bull riders had to start wearing those a lot more of us were hurt, some died.  Same idea wear it because it can help in worst case scenario but also help eliminate some of the bumps and bruises from the ever day bounces on rough rural roads and city pot holes.


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## EMTCop86 (Feb 1, 2009)

This thread was not meant to start a debate or go over the "what ifs" to death. It was simply started to remind everyone that a scene is never completely safe and you need to be alert. This is especially important for students like myself who are being taught to not enter a situation until it is safe. Yes this is correct but a lot of people think "oh it's safe I can let my guard down." We all need to keep our heads up on every call. It is just a reminder, not really something to be debated.


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## ffemt8978 (Feb 1, 2009)

EMTCop86 said:


> This thread was not meant to start a debate or go over the "what ifs" to death. It was simply started to remind everyone that a scene is never completely safe and you need to be alert. This is especially important for students like myself who are being taught to not enter a situation until it is safe. Yes this is correct but a lot of people think "oh it's safe I can let my guard down." We all need to keep our heads up on every call. It is just a reminder, not really something to be debated.



I was wondering if somebody was going to make this point.


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## BossyCow (Feb 1, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Actually no it is not an illusion.  How about the vest bull riders wear? Vest absorbs the impact of a bull when worn by a bull rider.  Before bull riders had to start wearing those a lot more of us were hurt, some died.  Same idea wear it because it can help in worst case scenario but also help eliminate some of the bumps and bruises from the ever day bounces on rough rural roads and city pot holes.



yes and we wear seatbelts.. but the point I was making was that wearing a bulletproof vest only protects us from certain events and may provide an illusion of safety that would cause someone to do become less aware of their surroundings. Unless I was working in a region with a lot of gunfire, drive by shootings and where there was a high incidence of EMS workers getting shot at, I'm not wearing a vest. There are several threads which discuss it. 

If you feel you need to wear a vest in the rig to protect yourself from your drivers crappy driving skills, then I'm thinking the money might be better spent on EVAP training instead of vests.


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## medic417 (Feb 1, 2009)

BossyCow said:


> yes and we wear seatbelts.. but the point I was making was that wearing a bulletproof vest only protects us from certain events and may provide an illusion of safety that would cause someone to do become less aware of their surroundings. Unless I was working in a region with a lot of gunfire, drive by shootings and where there was a high incidence of EMS workers getting shot at, I'm not wearing a vest. There are several threads which discuss it.
> 
> If you feel you need to wear a vest in the rig to protect yourself from your drivers crappy driving skills, then I'm thinking the money might be better spent on EVAP training instead of vests.



Often just one bad turn can cause much damage.  A normally good driver threw me accross the ambulance damaging my ribs and dislocating my shoulder.  Had I had a vest my ribs would have been ok.  Then all I would have had to do was pop my shoulder back in.  

Do you stay up with all the ambulance crashes?  Many of them are caused by other drivers.  So vests could be handy.  Plus they are stab resistant.  Protection with limited restriction.  And I call BS on false sense of security as other vitals are still un protected.  Heck gloves provide a false sense of security, so should we quit wearing them?


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## karaya (Feb 1, 2009)

So do _you_ wear a vest medic417?  Seems like a crash helmet should be in order in the back of the rig as well.


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## reaper (Feb 1, 2009)

medic417 said:


> Actually no it is not an illusion.  How about the vest bull riders wear? Vest absorbs the impact of a bull when worn by a bull rider.  Before bull riders had to start wearing those a lot more of us were hurt, some died.  Same idea wear it because it can help in worst case scenario but also help eliminate some of the bumps and bruises from the ever day bounces on rough rural roads and city pot holes.




They do not absorb the impact of the bull. They are designed to deflect the energy of the blow. They do help with minor blows, but you still get the energy from a major blow.

BTW, they do not HAVE to wear them. It is their choice!


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## medic417 (Feb 1, 2009)

reaper said:


> They do not absorb the impact of the bull. They are designed to deflect the energy of the blow. They do help with minor blows, but you still get the energy from a major blow.
> 
> BTW, they do not HAVE to wear them. It is their choice!



Actually some venues now require them.


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## Mongoose (Feb 2, 2009)

*No joke...*

In six months of working in EMS I have been on TWO separate calls now that were declared safe but turned into ACTIVE shooters. First one I was cleared by Co FD (I posted about this one) and rolled on scene just as a guy got drilled w/a 9mm through the leg. The second (two weeks ago) was dispatched as "Sick Person", we were cleared by Co FD to enter, and ended up on our bellies behind a planting box with bullets whizzing above us as Sheriff responded. 

Always be on your guard. I guess this comes from working nights in Los Angeles............


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## reaper (Feb 2, 2009)

Why would you ever listen to FD that a scene is safe?

Last time I looked, they are not the ones carrying the guns!


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## LukaPL (Feb 2, 2009)

True in my area only PD calls scene safe and I will only go in when cops are also inside. I like my job but I like my life more.

I heard (not)funny story when one of emt's called 10-53 (police) from dispatch, dispatcher asked "what you need cops for?'
true story


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## Mongoose (Feb 2, 2009)

reaper said:


> Why would you ever listen to FD that a scene is safe?
> 
> Last time I looked, they are not the ones carrying the guns!



The first one Sheriff was already on scene supposedly with Co FD (turns out FD wasn't there, but we were told over tac they were...major snafu).

Second one we didn't have a staging order and FD was already up there.


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## EMTCop86 (Feb 3, 2009)

Mongoose said:


> Always be on your guard. I guess this comes from working nights in Los Angeles............


 
Yup that seems like your problem right there. Be careful, and try not to get shot at anymore


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