# Live sticks



## gradygirl (Apr 28, 2008)

Does anyone have a specific opinion on doing live sticks during training?

We just did it in our class and I ended up with one vein blown, another nicked, and a third that bled like a stuck pig.

It's not that I'm necessarily against live sticks, as I think it's important to learn the differences between a rubber arm and a human arm, but I want to hear my more advanced colleagues' opinions.


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## CFRBryan347768 (Apr 28, 2008)

TCERT1987 said:


> Does anyone have a specific opinion on doing live sticks during training?
> 
> We just did it in our class and I ended up with one vein blown, another nicked, and a third that bled like a stuck pig.
> 
> It's not that I'm necessarily against live sticks, as I think it's important to learn the differences between a rubber arm and a human arm, but I want to hear my more advanced colleagues' opinions.



As far as the advanced colleagues part sorry your ahead of me. But im just gunna thtow my opinion out their. Your right you do need to learn the diffrence between rubber arm and real, but i'm not too sure about sticking each other, i always wondered if you could go down to the county jail and ask for volunteers(obviously taking extreme x100 precautions).


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## Sapphyre (Apr 28, 2008)

CFRBryan347768 said:


> i always wondered if you could go down to the county jail and ask for volunteers(obviously taking extreme x100 precautions).




I dunno about that Bryan.  Here, as students we're hardly allowed to say boo to inmates.


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## Onceamedic (Apr 28, 2008)

So if you are not going to stick each other, who do you think your first sticks should be on?  
We did them on each other at the very beginning of paramedic school.  I think it's a good idea.  We are all in the same boat and we all need to learn.  My class sounds like it was better prepared than yours tho..  it is a maximum of 2 sticks per student and most of us got flash on both of them.  We spent a LOT of time on mannequin arms first.


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## Katie (Apr 28, 2008)

we did our first sticks on each other as well at the beginning of class, but we also had to pass an evaluation on a mannequin arm before we were allowed to stick each other.  we also had about a 2 to 1 student teacher ratio so everything was controlled and watched carefully.  for me i'm normally a hard stick but that was the first time i've ever had a successful one on me first try   anyhow i think that it is important to have the experience before going to a patient.  it's also important to be able to tell a nervous pt honestly that you've done this before imo.  that's my two cents


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## Jon (Apr 28, 2008)

We never did live sticks in class... we were assessed on a couple of different rubber arms, and we worked with staff 1:1 for the first few sticks in clinical sites.



Sapphyre said:


> I dunno about that Bryan.  Here, as students we're hardly allowed to say boo to inmates.


When I was doing my -P school student time, I would often get tasked to draw labs and start IV's on the folks who had an acute allergy to handcuffs manifesting in chest pain (sometimes known as incarciertis). When I introduced myself, some of the prisoners would balk... The PD officers watching them usually informed them that if they didn't want care. they could go back to jail... so they always chose to let me get the IV and vitals. 
_(Of course, if they had insisted, I'd have gotten another staff member to get the IV before they refused care to avoid me.)_


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## LucidResq (Apr 28, 2008)

Seems like having students practice on another prior to practicing on patients is a good idea. 

That way you can REALLY know what works and what hurts like hell. Although obviously more invasive and potentially dangerous, it's like taking BPs on each other. You know that one kid that would keep the cuff deflating at an excruciatingly slow rate all the way down to zero, even after he caught your numbers? And your arm would hurt and get all tingly-numb and you just wanted to punch him with the other arm? I bet that taught you real well to keep that cuff inflated on patients only as long as needed. 

There's less stress too when you know you're doing it on someone who is learning as well. They're going to be much more understanding if you mess up than a patient would be. 

This is only a theoretical opinion, though. I'm taking my IV class in July and I know we'll be practicing plenty on each other, so I'll let you know how it goes.


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## ErinCooley (Apr 29, 2008)

I think its a great way to relieve lots of anxiety.  We were all terrified to get that first stick but most of the class left feeling like pros.

PS.. our room must have looked like a battlefield.  We all made a big mess.


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## pumper12fireman (Apr 29, 2008)

We're getting ready to do a live stick lab here soon. I'll also let you know how it goes. I'm hoping it relieves some anxiety of sticking people..


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## Katie (Apr 29, 2008)

pumper12fireman said:


> We're getting ready to do a live stick lab here soon. I'll also let you know how it goes. I'm hoping it relieves some anxiety of sticking people..



don't worry it does   and good luck!


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## firecoins (Apr 29, 2008)

We did a few sticks on a dummy before we went into the ER to do live sticks.  Oh boy that was difficult.  I missed so many sticks that I could licensed in NYS as an acupucturist. It works too. Its amazing how many people forget the reason they came and go home.  Now I get most of my sticks.


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## Tincanfireman (Apr 29, 2008)

pumper12fireman said:


> We're getting ready to do a live stick lab here soon. I'll also let you know how it goes.


 
Goes back to Day #1 of my ride time... "All wounds quit bleeding eventually"


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## mikie (Apr 29, 2008)

Can anyone tell me how the manequins work?  Wouldn't there already be holes in it?  And how do you know if you missed or did worse damage?


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## i5adam8 (Apr 29, 2008)

I think doing it on each other is a very good thing.It is a lot different than the IV arm.I was one of the students that got to do a stick on a patient on an ambulance clinical.There is nothing like the feeling of getting your first 'back of the ambulance IV"it's awesome.


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## firecoins (Apr 29, 2008)

mikie333 said:


> Can anyone tell me how the manequins work?  Wouldn't there already be holes in it?  And how do you know if you missed or did worse damage?



there are plenty of holes in it. It does affect it but not really enough.  You know if you missed if you don't get flash, just like in real life.  Only in real life its harder.  Dummies aren't afraid of needles, don't flinch and have better vasculatur than some patients.


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## mikie (Apr 29, 2008)

firecoins said:


> there are plenty of holes in it. It does affect it but not really enough.  You know if you missed if you don't get flash, just like in real life.  Only in real life its harder.  Dummies aren't afraid of needles, don't flinch and have better vasculatur than some patients.



So how do you know if you were 'successful?'


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## Katie (Apr 29, 2008)

mikie333 said:


> So how do you know if you were 'successful?'



the arm usually has a bag attached that is filled with red coloured water in it.  so the veins are full of red water.  when you stick the vein, if done properly you'll get a flash just like on real pts.  

it is fallible though, depending on the age of the arm and how much water they got in it.  sometimes, as in my case, it was too full and as soon as i stuck it it started squirting everywhere  here's what one looks like


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## firecoins (Apr 29, 2008)

mikie333 said:


> So how do you know if you were 'successful?'



like Katie said, tere is fake blood. You will see "flash" of red water inside the needle


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## Ridryder911 (Apr 29, 2008)

There is good points and bad points of using "live" sticks. Mannequins should be used to develop the technique and procedure, as well the "skin" should be replaced after the semester, and replaced tubings. 

Live sticks also potential liability, One has to be supervised well, to prevent potential problems.  I do agree they should occur as it gives good experience and one can develop empathy for patients...

R/r 911


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## Outbac1 (Apr 30, 2008)

We practiced our technique on manniquins until we got signed off on it. Then we practiced on each other, usually with supervision. Another couple of guys and myself were virtual pin cushions by the end of the week as we had good easy veins. We all were taught and followed the same procedure so there were no shortcuts. If you stuck me then I got to stick you. I felt it was good realistic training as we had a variety of easy and hard veins to practice on.


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## NESDMEDIC (Apr 30, 2008)

During my medic class we practiced technique on the maniquin arm until until we got signed off and then we stuck each other. I was a popular pin cushion in class as my anatomy is different between my left and right hands. My right hand has the radial artery in the normal positon in the wrist below the thumb on my left the artery is on the inside of the wrist where usually in most patients is a nice large vein. So if you check for a pulse on me in my left side you won't find one in the normal spot. The instructor's point was feel for a pulse before you poke as not every patient is not the same. We needed 50 live successful iv starts as a requirement for course completion. We also give each other Im and SQ injections of saline. Interesting though I have a daughter in the 4 year RN program in college and they were not allowed to start IV's on each other they practiced on maniquin arm's and bannan's and injections on oranges. She would come home on weekend's and i would let her practice on me.


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## mikie (Apr 30, 2008)

What gauge did you guys practice on each other with?



NESDMEDIC said:


> ... they practiced on maniquin arm's and bannan's and injections on oranges. She would come home on weekend's and i would let her practice on me.



I practiced IMs on oranges.  So for bananas, did they hit an artery by accident?


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## NESDMEDIC (Apr 30, 2008)

We used 20 ga. and 18 ga. in class on each other, mostly 20's. She never said if she ever hit an artery on a bannana LOL.


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## CFRBryan347768 (Apr 30, 2008)

firecoins said:


> there are plenty of holes in it. It does affect it but not really enough.  You know if you missed if you don't get flash, just like in real life.  Only in real life its harder.  Dummies aren't afraid of needles, don't flinch and have better vasculatur than some patients.



So why not make it complicated to stick dummies?


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## firecoins (Apr 30, 2008)

CFRBryan347768 said:


> So why not make it complicated to stick dummies?



Have the dummies flinch?  I guess an instructor could do that.


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## gradygirl (Apr 30, 2008)

Well, we used 22s in our lab.  And yes, we also had to be signed off on the mannequins first.

I got the hematoma as a result of having very slender veins in my hands. I think what happened is that when my partner had to wiggle the catheter into the vein, so I guess he just enlarged the hole in the vein and that it couldn't close up. It still basically sucked, though.


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## Ridryder911 (Apr 30, 2008)

For neonates we had to cannulate the Orange's "veins" .. with a 24 gauge, it does make it interesting. 

R/r 911


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## medic_chick87 (Apr 30, 2008)

We did live sticks on each other in medic school. It was like the second week of class. We didnt even start on the dummies. It was just like "Here's a needle, there's your class mate - have at it." I personally think it was a good thing. It got us over the Oh S**t factor of actually having to stick someone right of the bat. Plus thus dummies are _nothing_ like real life. Not that I'm saying it was fun. I was the hard stick in class and as a result had a nerve hit, tons of bruises, and a few scars still. But I also think it was good thing because when I had to start actually stickin patients I didnt have any hesitation and I could have a little sympathy (telling your pts, "I know how much this hurts, I've had them myself, but you really do need it," does wonders.) 
As far a practicing for neonate, we just did each others thumb veins.


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## Jon (May 1, 2008)

Is anyone using Laredal's computerized IV trainer?


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## gradygirl (May 1, 2008)

Wait, Jon, you're talking about something that is a) "out of the ordinary," b) probably costs a pretty penny, and c) isn't about 12 years out of date...


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## mikie (May 1, 2008)

Jon said:


> Is anyone using Laredal's computerized IV trainer?



Oh that is cool!

I found this about it.  I bet it runs quite a bit $ too...any ideas?


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## gradygirl (May 1, 2008)

For the adult virtual trainer alone, we're talking about $9,500 for the trainer, another $2,495 for the computer module, and countless other thousands for the upgrades.

The infant trainer costs the same.

So together, you're looking at dropping somewhere in the range of $25,000 at a minimum.


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## paramedix (May 1, 2008)

All the classes I have heard about, including the one I attended, we "practiced" on each other with IV's. 

Obviously those who did not want to be involved could sit out, but if you stick a fellow classmate you must be prepared to take one yourself.

We also used the rubber arm, etc. But for exams, only the rubber/latex.


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## Katie (May 1, 2008)

paramedix said:


> Obviously those who did not want to be involved could sit out, but if you stick a fellow classmate you must be prepared to take one yourself.



wow that's nice.  we didn't have a choice.  we have three people in our class who pass out when they get stuck with needles so the instructors just brought in a stretcher and made them lay down on it when it was their turn


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## CFRBryan347768 (May 1, 2008)

Katie said:


> wow that's nice.  we didn't have a choice.  we have three people in our class who pass out when they get stuck with needles so the instructors just brought in a stretcher and made them lay down on it when it was their turn



I think that is soooo wrong! So you can refuse health care but not having a needle stuck in your arm by a person whos only learning. Nuh-uh I'd throw a fit for that person.


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## mdkemt (May 1, 2008)

We as well practice on each other.  This goes through the entire progam.  Funny thing is I rather have someone stick a 14g in my hand/arm then poke my finger to get a random blood sugar *shivers*  Pathetic I know!


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## Katie (May 1, 2008)

CFRBryan347768 said:


> I think that is soooo wrong! So you can refuse health care but not having a needle stuck in your arm by a person whos only learning. Nuh-uh I'd throw a fit for that person.



i think it's more the principle.  we were told that we would have to do that in the orientation meeting even before we signed up for the class.  after all we are going to be sticking pts, so it seems a bit wrong to want to practice on someone but not be willing to be practiced on yourself.  either way we agreed to it at the beginning of class.  now if you started to feel really bad they'd stop, but you still had to give it a go. 



mdkemt said:


> We as well practice on each other.  This goes through the entire progam.  Funny thing is I rather have someone stick a 14g in my hand/arm then poke my finger to get a random blood sugar *shivers*  Pathetic I know!



me too!


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## JPINFV (May 1, 2008)

CFRBryan347768 said:


> I think that is soooo wrong! So you can refuse health care but not having a needle stuck in your arm by a person whos only learning. Nuh-uh I'd throw a fit for that person.



Sure, throw a fit, there's the door. Provided that requirements like that are put into writing prior to the start of the program, I fail to see the problem. Don't want to participate with the rest of your classmates? Fail that specific course. I'd say that I'd rather have my arm practiced with for an IV than be the guinea pig for the FAST IO demonstration as in the other thread.

Heck, my understanding is that police officers get to experience being tazed before being allowed to carry a tazer.


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## CFRBryan347768 (May 1, 2008)

JPINFV said:


> Sure, throw a fit, there's the door. Provided that requirements like that are put into writing prior to the start of the program, I fail to see the problem. Don't want to participate with the rest of your classmates? Fail that specific course. I'd say that I'd rather have my arm practiced with for an IV than be the guinea pig for the FAST IO demonstration as in the other thread.
> 
> Heck, my understanding is that police officers get to experience being tazed before being allowed to carry a tazer.



Now if theres before hand writing than thats diffrent you knew what you were getting your self into, so its your own fault. If you dont wanna be stuck than you say no. End of story.


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## Vizior (May 1, 2008)

CFRBryan347768 said:


> Now if theres before hand writing than thats diffrent you knew what you were getting your self into, so its your own fault. If you dont wanna be stuck than you say no. End of story.



The way it worked for us was we had to demonstrate the skill on another student before we could do it on live patients.  If you werent gonna be willing to let me stick you, I'm not about to let you stick me.  Just fair I think.


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## mikie (May 2, 2008)

JPINFV said:


> participate with the rest of your classmates? Fail that specific course. I'd say that I'd rather have my arm practiced with for an IV than be the guinea pig for the FAST IO demonstration as in the other thread.
> 
> Heck, my understanding is that police officers get to experience being tazed before being allowed to carry a tazer.



A- Are IO's practiced on eachother??

B-I believe you're correct about the tazer, at least around here


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## JPINFV (May 2, 2008)

mikie333 said:


> A- Are IO's practiced on eachother??
> 
> B-I believe you're correct about the tazer, at least around here



I honestly don't know, but I consider IOs, and the risk of infection, to be a completely different ball game than IVs.


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## Jon (May 2, 2008)

Just FYI - Taser, Inc does not require "volunteer exposure" except for their Master Instructors.

However, as I understand it, peer pressure within the local departments means that everyone gets "tased"... becuase they don't want to be ribbed for not taking the ride.


As for IO's - Do you want me to put one it you, ever? The answer should be no... unless I'm dying.


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## katgrl2003 (May 2, 2008)

Jon said:


> As for IO's - Do you want me to put one it you, ever? The answer should be no... unless I'm dying.



I actually got threatened with that once.  Severe stomach pain, dehydrated, very crappy veins.  After the second medic attempted an iv and missed our BLS supervisor told them she would get the io, and she would get to insert it, since she was a supervisor and had gone through the class.  Apparently, I went even more pale (didn't think that was possible) and one of the medics shoved her out the back of the truck.  Such fun.

-Kat


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## firecoins (May 2, 2008)

mikie333 said:


> A- Are IO's practiced on eachother??


No

I have done a stick on myself.


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## gradygirl (May 2, 2008)

Under no circumstances would an IO actually be practiced on another person in class. Ever. Period. We had to practice doing them with the dummy legs, and I was squirming just doing that. Who, in their right mind, "guinea pig" or instructor, would allow another person to basically screw a large bore metal needle into their leg or their sternum? Answer: NO ONE. It is even said here
that a conscious adult must be treated with lidocaine at the insertion site and that lido must also be injected into the marrow before it is perfused, but we're talking about using an IO only if it in *impossible* to achieve IV placement elsewhere, i.e. you're patient's conscious now, but probably won't be for much longer. And I guarantee you anyone who isn't near consciousness is going to deck you if you do come at them with an IO, those things are scary! :wacko:


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## mikie (May 2, 2008)

I figured IO wouldn't be practiced on eachother.  Just confirming.  

So how is it practiced, mannequin?


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## JPINFV (May 2, 2008)

TCERT1987 said:


> Under no circumstances would an IO actually be practiced on another person in class. Ever. Period. We had to practice doing them with the dummy legs, and I was squirming just doing that. Who, in their right mind, "guinea pig" or instructor, would allow another person to basically screw a large bore metal needle into their leg or their sternum? Answer: NO ONE. It is even said here
> that a conscious adult must be treated with lidocaine at the insertion site and that lido must also be injected into the marrow before it is perfused, but we're talking about using an IO only if it in *impossible* to achieve IV placement elsewhere, i.e. you're patient's conscious now, but probably won't be for much longer. And I guarantee you anyone who isn't near consciousness is going to deck you if you do come at them with an IO, those things are scary! :wacko:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_G6I27XTj0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGln7vnnI3o&feature=related

It happens, but there has to be a better way...


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## mikie (May 2, 2008)

JPINFV said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_G6I27XTj0&feature=related
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGln7vnnI3o&feature=related
> 
> It happens, but there has to be a better way...



Yeah, I saw those.  I think they were posted in another thread.  Either those guys were tough or stupid!  (I didn't have my sound on, so perhaps I missed something)


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## Jon (May 2, 2008)

Remember... soliders are property of uncle sam... he can do whatever he wants, within reason.

I wouldn't be in line to volunteer... but if it means that everyone's seen it done on a real person, it might save a life.

But that discussion is a little OT.


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## Ridryder911 (May 2, 2008)

TCERT1987 said:


> Under no circumstances would an IO actually be practiced on another person in class. Ever. Period. We had to practice doing them with the dummy legs, and I was squirming just doing that. Who, in their right mind, "guinea pig" or instructor, would allow another person to basically screw a large bore metal needle into their leg or their sternum? Answer: NO ONE. It is even said here
> that a conscious adult must be treated with lidocaine at the insertion site and that lido must also be injected into the marrow before it is perfused, but we're talking about using an IO only if it in *impossible* to achieve IV placement elsewhere, i.e. you're patient's conscious now, but probably won't be for much longer. And I guarantee you anyone who isn't near consciousness is going to deck you if you do come at them with an IO, those things are scary! :wacko:



A little lesson, bones have no nerve endings itself, so lidocaine locally would only be for the insertion site itself and doubt it would help. It has been studied several times, and in fact our college team will use an EZ I/O for football players that are severally dehydrated. They rate the pain 3/10 and comparable to peripheral IV insertions. Some even described less painful. Lidocaine 1%, 1mg is added to the solution to decrease pain from the pressure of the periosteum, and this has been very successful. 

R/r 911


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## triemal04 (May 3, 2008)

All the more reason to fully understand a procedure before you ever consider doing it.  Ever.  At all.  

It is not that uncommon for IO's to be placed in conscious and alert patients.  In fact the most common time that it probably happens is when a sales rep is demo'ing the product to a prospective buyer.  Yes, you did read that correctly; it happens fairly regularly.  As well, if you were to do a search on the internet for IO insertions, I'm sure you'd find video's of plenty being done on regular people.  

The pain doesn't come from the insertion; as has been said, bones don't feel a whole hell of a lot.  The people I know personally who have had it done rate the pain at about the same as a larger bore IV.  Now, they all do agree (and I've seen this first hand) that when you start to infuse fluids there will be a huge upswing in the amount of pain felt; that is why lidocaine is infused immedietly after confirmation of the placement; it's not used topically at all.

If you are going to do something, learn about it.  Learn about every aspect of it, or don't consider doing it.  Ever.


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## gradygirl (May 3, 2008)

Point well taken. I still think that, in a general classroom setting, it's somewhat inappropriate, especially as our instructors kept saying that it was highly unlikely that we would ever use an IO. However, if I were being specifically trained on IO, yes, I would prefer to practice on an actual patient or on a bone-based derivative.

Also, when I was talking about the amount of pain/discomfort, I was thinking more about manually inserted IOs, not the EZ-IOs or IO guns.


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## triemal04 (May 4, 2008)

TCERT1987 said:


> Point well taken. I still think that, in a general classroom setting, it's somewhat inappropriate, especially as our instructors kept saying that it was highly unlikely that we would ever use an IO. However, if I were being specifically trained on IO, yes, I would prefer to practice on an actual patient or on a bone-based derivative.
> 
> Also, when I was talking about the amount of pain/discomfort, I was thinking more about manually inserted IOs, not the EZ-IOs or IO guns.



Oh, well that's not your fault, you were just going off what your instructor told you.

Oh, well that's your own fault, you were just going off what your instructor told you.

Confused yet?  :blink:

If you haven't noticed, EMS education as a whole in the US is sorely lacking; one way this manifests itself is in the lack of any standard for who can teach a class.  Point being, you should listen to what you're taught, but don't ever think that just because someone is an instructor they are always right, are teaching you all that you need to know about a particular topic (they never are), have kept up with current trends, or are even right at all.  

It's relevant here because your instructor is wrong.  With the multiple IO devices out there beyond the standard Illinois needle (BIG, FAST, EZ-IO) it is very LIKELY that you WILL start an IO on someone at some point in your career.  I'd go so far as to say that you are almost gaurenteed to.  Ped IO's are standard, and adult IO's are getting to be that way too.  Something to be aware of.  So knowing how to do it and all complications/indications and having experience doing it is smart.

Far as doing it in class...it's been done before.  Honestly, why shouldn't you do it?  And since we're learning here, why would a manual (excluding the FAST...maybe) IO hurt more than a powered one?  I'll give you a hint...if done right, it wouldn't.

Cheers.


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## Ridryder911 (May 4, 2008)

I believe  I/O is too risky to practice in the classroom Too great of chance of osteomyletitis, and one might hit the epiphyseal plate. The training model is a great tool to learn on enough... 

R/r 911


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## Ops Paramedic (May 5, 2008)

Reading the original thread, i must say term "live sticks" got my attention.  I thought it was some fancy new piece equipment, such as a Lumi stick (Ha-Ha)!!

Anyway, we also performed venipuncture on each other, post doing it on the manikens.  I have now problem with it, as long as it supervised and correct procedures and techniqeus are followed.  However, i will not force someone in doing it, as there can be complications.

The other side is, where do you stop with practising procedures on yourselves.  Its OK to do a traction splint, or spinal immobolisation, but what about inflation of the MAST.  Some people are fortunate enough to have a suppresed gag reflex, and students have even intubated each other during hospital pracs and walked around like that.  What's next: "Hey buddy, just lie still, i'm clear, you're clear, we're all clear..." (Someone has defibrilated their own femur, to show that a low setting is harmless, needles to say, a fractured femur was the result)


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## Jon (May 6, 2008)

Ops Paramedic said:


> ...Some people are fortunate enough to have a suppresed gag reflex, and students have even intubated each other during hospital pracs and walked around like that...



Have you ever seen Dr. R. Levitan's videos and presentations? He likes to scope himself while talking, and then provide a guided tour of his respiratory system.


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## gradygirl (May 6, 2008)

Well, as far as weird things done to willing participants, one of the guys in our class allowed himself to have an NPA placed.  He said it felt very weird and that the lube was the worst. 

Also, two of my supervisors at my old company decided to see how it felt to be defibrillated...needless to say that only one of them is still a supervisor, and only by the skin of his teeth...

And OK triemal04, when and where can we get together so I can practice my IO skills??


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## JPINFV (May 6, 2008)

TCERT1987 said:


> Also, two of my supervisors at my old company decided to see how it felt to be defibrillated...needless to say that only one of them is still a supervisor, and only by the skin of his teeth...



That's a rather shocking display is stupidity.


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## firecoins (May 6, 2008)

TCERT1987 said:


> Also, two of my supervisors at my old company decided to see how it felt to be defibrillated...needless to say that only one of them is still a supervisor, and only by the skin of his teeth...



what happaned to the other supervisor? :glare:


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## JPINFV (May 6, 2008)

firecoins said:


> what happaned to the other supervisor? :glare:



Regardless, I hope he was enlightened on the error of his ways. 

(I'll be here all week)


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## Jon (May 6, 2008)

JPINFV said:


> That's a rather shocking display is stupidity.



Literally.


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## Epi-do (May 6, 2008)

TCERT1987 said:


> Well, as far as weird things done to willing participants, one of the guys in our class allowed himself to have an NPA placed.




In one of the previous classes where I am going to medic class, they had a girl that volunteered to have an NG placed - not once, but twice - by a classmate that needed two more of them to complete all her required skills before the end of class.

As for the IO's, we only did those on manaquins.  We did do blood draws on each other, as well as IV's, and once guy let our instructor do an arterial blood draw on him.


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## gradygirl (May 6, 2008)

firecoins said:


> what happaned to the other supervisor? :glare:



All I can figure is it was one of those "screw up, move up" situations. But, since this guy apparently couldn't move up any more, they just left him as is. (He's our scheduling super, so he has very few friends within either half of the company.


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## triemal04 (May 8, 2008)

TCERT1987 said:


> And OK triemal04, when and where can we get together so I can practice my IO skills??



Might be kind of hard given I live on the other side of the country, but I'm game.  Just remember the rule:  you poke me and I poke you!


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## pumper12fireman (May 8, 2008)

Just to update on a previous post of mine- we had our live sticks today, and I sunk both of 'em with no problems. Just a little difficulty in tying the damn tourniquet and unlocking the cath without pushing the needle forward..


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## medicinthemaking (May 8, 2008)

*Live sticks?*



LucidResq said:


> Seems like having students practice on another prior to practicing on patients is a good idea.



I just wanted to give my input as to the live stick questions...for the paramedic class that I'm in now, it seems as tho we are almost 100% different. All in the same day we were required to do one stick on the mannequin and the rest were on our classmates. I'm sorry, but I have never had a blown IV or even a failed attempt on the mannequin...for goodness sakes, we could probably throw darts from across the room and still obtain IV access! We were required to do have a *MINIMUM* of 6 live sticks in our first semester-with plenty of blown IV's and failed attempts! I think it was the best learning experience ever! 

We have 5 semesters...and I'm in my second semester now and we have also since done "rolling sticks" in the back of the trucks and now I feel much better for summer clinicals fastly approaching that I will be fine when it comes to my first "patient" stick...I'm gonna rock!


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## tydek07 (May 11, 2008)

We did our first sticks on our classmates. One day we did shots, the next was IV's. I think we practiced once or twice on the rubber arm, then we went after each other. The only way you are going to learn, is by doing on live people. Everyone is different, so that IV arm is really only good to get your technique down. I am for live sticks. 

I think we got a week to practice, then we had our test out on them the next week. After that we were set to start them out in the field..... we started ride alongs/ER's the first month of class. So we had class/ride alongs running together throughout the entire program.
                                       Tyler


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## mikie (May 11, 2008)

How do people go about practicing on 'difficult sticks'?  I remember rid saying (if I recall correctly) they practiced on thumbs (simulating a neonate)?

ie. elderly, infants, people w/ tough veins to stick in general (perhaps medical condition or from shock)?

thanks!


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## tazman7 (May 14, 2008)

I am in medic class now and we had to practice iv's on each other. Of course I got the biggest moron in the class...she was told that we could only use a 20 ga needle but they had all of gauges layed out for us to see the size difference...well guess who "accidentally" grabbed the 14...her,   then she tried sticking it in my arm!!! So I called the teacher over and she was told to use a 20 ga,  so she did and the veins in my arm a blind monkey could get any size needle in one. So she starts, puts the needle in a little bit, very slowly, and starts diggine around, at this time im almost in tears there was so much pain, as soon as i thought she was done she started pushing down on the needle and bent it!!!! thats no joke, she bend a f****** 20 ga needle in my arm, the teacher kind jumped and pulled back on her arm to get the needle out of mine. 

Then when it came to giving an im injection, they say to use a "dart like motion"  and she just put it in slowly and again dug around.

I dont think it is bad to try stuff like that on classmates, its just some people dont belong in the back of an ambulance.


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## fma08 (May 22, 2008)

we had to practice on classmates first, then we had to "test" on classmates before we were signed of on doing them in the field, like all the other skills in our program, for the DOT requirements, they have to be performed on live human patients. i don't think we used the rubber arm more than once or twice, and now that i think about it, i'm glad it is that way.


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## mikeylikesit (May 28, 2008)

i hated live sticks but like stated here before it is way better than doing it on a patient who koesn't understand than a classmate who knows exactly what your doing and can even learn from your mistake on them.


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