# Dramatic car crash rescue



## minneola24 (Aug 8, 2009)

Click here to watch



> A serious car accident in Washington, DC causes pedestrians to spring into action.



There have been a few videos like this of people bringing victims out of burning vehicles, what do you think? Would you stop and help?


----------



## DV_EMT (Aug 8, 2009)

I ALWAYS stop for help.... if its needed.

For example... 

flat tire w/o injuries = they can call AAA

Intersection crashes, Freeway accidents (non fender benders), or pedistrian down.... Im stopping to help until further help arrives (ie AMR or FIRE)


Thats me though... good samaratin


----------



## Lifeguards For Life (Aug 8, 2009)

DV_EMT said:


> I ALWAYS stop for help.... if its needed.
> 
> For example...
> 
> ...



so your saying you arent stopping so much to help as to try to get your hands on something that you think is cool. I think that theres more integrity in stopping to help a single mom with her kids in the car change a flat than go for the "hey look at me" and stop at a MVA.


----------



## DV_EMT (Aug 8, 2009)

no....

If someone is unconscious from a major crash and bleeding from a femoral artery tear while nobody stops or calls 911 for them... thats something the (the people involved) can't handle (cause they're unconscious and slowly dying from blood loss)

If a mom in a minivan has a flat tire and is sitting out of her car and is on the phone... i know that she's competant enough to call 911 for herself.

like i said... i only stop for a "true" emergency in which someone could be slowly dying. A mom sitting on the phone with 911 or AAA isn't an emergency. Let CHP and AAA help with the traffic control and fixing the tire... I'm there to fix the people, not the car


----------



## Flight-LP (Aug 8, 2009)

And what life saving skills are you offering off duty that is saving the world one victim at a time?

What is your criteria for a "true emergency" and how do you ascertain that prior to stopping or before making patient contact?


----------



## minneola24 (Aug 8, 2009)

Flight-LP said:


> And what life saving skills are you offering off duty that is saving the world one victim at a time?
> 
> What is your criteria for a "true emergency" and how do you ascertain that prior to stopping or before making patient contact?



Well calling 911 would be life saving, we talked about this in one of my classes in school, like if someone has a heart attack and there are 20+ people around, chances are no one will call 911 as they think the person next to them will or already has. So if a car hits a tree off the road they will probably drive by and think someone has called 911. I probably wouldn't drive by thoe so I wasn't agreeing 100% with my teacher but you get the point...


----------



## Flight-LP (Aug 8, 2009)

Lifeguards For Life said:


> so your saying you arent stopping so much to help as to try to get your hands on something that you think is cool. I think that theres more integrity in stopping to help a single mom with her kids in the car change a flat than go for the "hey look at me" and stop at a MVA.



Could you clarify your perception of integrity? Its definition is stated as "steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code, the state of being unimpaired, or the quality or condition of being whole or undivided; completeness. I do not see the corelation.

Just as I asked the OP in my previous response, I ask you how you can identify a single mother in her car. Radar????

Sorry guys, but there is a personal responsibility that people need to retain. Perhaps a cell phone to call for assistance? Its sad that society has reached the level that eliminates the personal humanistic touch, but these days it gets back to personal safety. no one elses life is of higher value than my own. If there is a safety factor that I can control, i.e. not stopping to assist in my off duty time, then I control it.

Good for the nice pedestrians who elected to help out. Glad they didn't die or get severely injured from failing to consider their own personal safety, although I'm sure that shaking the victims in the vehicle the way they did probably didn't help them much. Now watch one of them sue for additional pain and suffering!


----------



## minneola24 (Aug 8, 2009)

Flight-LP said:


> I'm sure that shaking the victims in the vehicle the way they did probably didn't help them much. Now watch one of them sue for additional pain and suffering!



Yeah your right but sitting in a burning vehicle that may explode any minute is probably not better


----------



## Flight-LP (Aug 8, 2009)

minneola24 said:


> Well calling 911 would be life saving, we talked about this in one of my classes in school, like if someone has a heart attack and there are 20+ people around, chances are no one will call 911 as they think the person next to them will or already has. So if a car hits a tree off the road they will probably drive by and think someone has called 911. I probably wouldn't drive by thoe so I wasn't agreeing 100% with my teacher but you get the point...



Valid, although calling 911 does not require you to stop and get involved. Anyone can drive by and call.


----------



## berkeman (Aug 9, 2009)

minneola24 said:


> Yeah your right but sitting in a burning vehicle that may explode any minute is probably not better



Explode?  How many burning vehicles have you had explode on you?  There was a thread here not too long ago...


----------



## berkeman (Aug 9, 2009)

minneola24 said:


> Yeah your right but sitting in a burning vehicle that may explode any minute is probably not better





berkeman said:


> Explode?  How many burning vehicles have you had explode on you?  There was a thread here not too long ago...



Here it is.  Please don't consider every small car fire an explosion risk.  Myself and my FTOs have never had a small car fire blow up on us.  Just put it out and deal with it.  Big car fires require an Engine with lots of water.  Small car fires just take a 10 pound extinguisher or two, and some training.  

http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=10291&highlight=explode

.


----------



## NREMTB12 (Aug 9, 2009)

i know these people ment well, but like someone previously posted...shaking the car and moving them without proper immobilization could have further injuried or paralyzed them...but if they dont know that then they cant be blamed...of course you know there is always some goob that is the least injured of all the pt. that will sue for personal injury against the good samaritians


----------



## minneola24 (Aug 9, 2009)

berkeman said:


> Here it is.  Please don't consider every small car fire an explosion risk.  Myself and my FTOs have never had a small car fire blow up on us.  Just put it out and deal with it.  Big car fires require an Engine with lots of water.  Small car fires just take a 10 pound extinguisher or two, and some training.
> 
> http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=10291&highlight=explode
> 
> .



Yeah, you have a valid point, however if a car is on fire and lets say your on a road where the closest emergency personell is 5+ minutes away and the car is on fire do you just leave them in there? Your right maybe it wont "explode" but would you leave them to burn in the car?

If the car is not on fire than your probably right, its best to leave them in there and let the pro's with the equipment handle it
There was a video similar to this but with an SUV that had a mom and a few cihldren in the car that was on its side burning, there were off duty fireman that happened to be around. They went back and forth in the flames taking turns because of the flames to get the people out of the car, they weren't going to wait for the fire truck to get there with the equipment to stabilize them if the car is on fire.


----------



## syd (Aug 9, 2009)

Just a quick question, still on topic. Does a good sam law protect you AFTER you've had training???


----------



## Flight-LP (Aug 9, 2009)

minneola24 said:


> Yeah, you have a valid point, however if a car is on fire and lets say your on a road where the closest emergency personell is 5+ minutes away and the car is on fire do you just leave them in there? Your right maybe it wont "explode" but would you leave them to burn in the car?



Without the appropriate equipment or training to safely put out the fire without harming myself, then yes. Sorry, bad things happen to good people, but the premise to maintaining both your sanity and personal well being is to remember one thing...........

Never allow someone elses emergency to become your own.

But, again, I would not be stopping in the first place so it's not an issue.................

If on duty, I would attempt to extinguish with the on board fire extinguisher and hope the fire department get to the scene rather expeditiously.


----------



## rogersam5 (Aug 9, 2009)

NREMTB12 said:


> i know these people ment well, but like someone previously posted...shaking the car and moving them without proper immobilization could have further injuried or paralyzed them...but if they dont know that then they cant be blamed...of course you know there is always some goob that is the least injured of all the pt. that will sue for personal injury against the good samaritians



You know... I remember a chapter in my book, that said if the car is on fire...or there is an IMMEDIATE Risk to the pt's life (other then their injuries) I am supposed to use an emergency move, i.e. I move them without the board or KED or any immobilization that I can't proved with my body/arms. Just looking at the cars and not the injuries The upside down SUV..they can wait until a board gets their with the FD... But the car with smoke/steam pouring out all over the place. If I can get at them I will pull them out without the immobilization get them to where it is safer, and assess/immobilize then


----------



## rogersam5 (Aug 9, 2009)

syd said:


> Just a quick question, still on topic. Does a good sam law protect you AFTER you've had training???



I think this varies by state. I know in my area, I am covered as long as I am not negligent and I only provide care up to my level of training and within my scope. (Minus of course anything that would require My Medical Director to sign off on, or a ER Doc telling me "do this")


----------



## DV_EMT (Aug 10, 2009)

I believe that there is a technique that you can remove a pt from a vehicle in C-spine by standing behind them, placing your arms through their armpits and then holding their neck/head straight...... if i recall correctly ?? It'd be hard to do upside down though


----------



## Flight-LP (Aug 10, 2009)

Guys, the stuff you read in Brady / Mosby / AAOS / where ever is great and all, but let me throw out this question for you......................

When you rescue the poor victim from their burning car and wind up getting 2nd degree burns on your arms, how are you going to get income since you will not be able to work? Do you really think your health insurance is going to cover it? Short and long term disability? Not a chance as it was off duty and since you are trained super duper EMT, you know that PPE is a requirement at all times. Your insurance company will shut you down before you can cry foul..............Is it worth it????


----------



## minneola24 (Aug 10, 2009)

Flight-LP said:


> Guys, the stuff you read in Brady / Mosby / AAOS / where ever is great and all, but let me throw out this question for you......................
> 
> When you rescue the poor victim from their burning car and wind up getting 2nd degree burns on your arms, how are you going to get income since you will not be able to work? Do you really think your health insurance is going to cover it? Short and long term disability? Not a chance as it was off duty and since you are trained super duper EMT, you know that PPE is a requirement at all times. Your insurance company will shut you down before you can cry foul..............Is it worth it????



Well whats worse, 2nd degree burns on  your arms and a headache from insurance and work or watching someone burn up in a rolled over vehicle while you just stand and watch?


----------



## Flight-LP (Aug 10, 2009)

minneola24 said:


> Well whats worse, 2nd degree burns on  your arms and a headache from insurance and work or watching someone burn up in a rolled over vehicle while you just stand and watch?



*Sigh* You do not want my answer to that question. 

If you want to spend months in excruciating pain while going through rehab, thats your choice. I on the other hand elect to use a thought process that will allow the best outcome for the most people; and my personal safety tops that list. My family depends on my ability to perform in the field and I enjoy my livelihood. I am not equipped nor prepared to deal with someone elses emergency off duty, I have no duty to act, I am not covered under any insurance policy, do not wish to be part of litigation, and I have the faith in our local professional resources that can effectively deal with these emergencies.

Get some experience in this industry and you will see why most of us feel this way. You cant save the world, unfortunately Darwinism sometimes does apply.


----------



## Scott33 (Aug 10, 2009)

Flight-LP said:


> *Sigh* You do not want my answer to that question.
> 
> If you want to spend months in excruciating pain while going through rehab, thats your choice. I on the other hand elect to use a thought process that will allow the best outcome for the most people; and my personal safety tops that list. My family depends on my ability to perform in the field and I enjoy my livelihood. I am not equipped nor prepared to deal with someone elses emergency off duty, I have no duty to act, I am not covered under any insurance policy, do not wish to be part of litigation, and I have the faith in our local professional resources that can effectively deal with these emergencies.
> 
> Get some experience in this industry and you will see why most of us feel this way. You cant save the world, unfortunately Darwinism sometimes does apply.



Well said...totally agree.


----------



## Sasha (Aug 10, 2009)

minneola24 said:


> Well whats worse, 2nd degree burns on  your arms and a headache from insurance and work or watching someone burn up in a rolled over vehicle while you just stand and watch?



What's worse, burning your arms, not being able to work, your family going hungry and losing your house, not being able to take care of the people who depend on you or staying in your car and calling 911 as you continue on to your destination?

Sounds cruel, sounds cold. But me and mine first, everyone else is second. I'd rather have one life destroyed as oppose to two.


----------



## Shishkabob (Aug 10, 2009)

minneola24 said:


> Well whats worse, 2nd degree burns on  your arms and a headache from insurance and work or watching someone burn up in a rolled over vehicle while you just stand and watch?



Most surely the second degree burn.



The ol' EMS cliche holds true;

Your safety first.  Then your partners.  Then the publics.  And finally, the patient.


----------



## Sasha (Aug 10, 2009)

Why are we even talking second degree burns? I would think a car fire has the potential for third degree burns, which to me with all the complications, pain and possible debility associated with bad burns is not worth POSSIBLY saving someone who is already possibly dead.


----------



## Summit (Aug 10, 2009)

minneola24 said:


> Click here to watch
> 
> 
> 
> There have been a few videos like this of people bringing victims out of burning vehicles, what do you think? Would you stop and help?



Dudes rippin open the jammed car door on the burning Caddy = RAD

Thumbs up


----------



## DV_EMT (Aug 11, 2009)

carry a fire extinguisher? thatd get rid of the fire issue... but as for the upside down car... thats another issue

reminds me of another time when i was a kid.... but that thats anohter story for another day... pm me for details


----------



## berkeman (Aug 11, 2009)

DV_EMT said:


> carry a fire extinguisher? thatd get rid of the fire issue... but as for the upside down car... thats another issue
> 
> reminds me of another time when i was a kid.... but that thats anohter story for another day... pm me for details



Agree completely.  Too many times you see bystanders trying to brave flames on a car that you can put out (or knock down) with a 10-pounder or two.  Stupid.  Just stay up-wind...


----------



## Shishkabob (Aug 11, 2009)

DV_EMT said:


> carry a fire extinguisher? thatd get rid of the fire issue...



Fire... maybe.


But fire extinguishers don't instantly make red hot steel back to a touchable temp anytime soon.


----------



## NREMTB12 (Aug 11, 2009)

i guess its a good thing that they were using dry chemical extinguishers...becuase i would hate for them to have grabbed an APW or something and tried that without any PPE...most people in the general public dont know about magnesium in cars being water sensitive...that stuff will spark and shoot blue flames if the least bit of water hits it...and it would have been a real tragedy for one of those brave people to have found that out the hard way...just stay safe


----------



## VFFforpeople (Aug 11, 2009)

Linuss said:


> Fire... maybe.
> 
> 
> But fire extinguishers don't instantly make red hot steel back to a touchable temp anytime soon.



That is true, but if you can cover the flame with the dry chem you stop the threat of fire..unless people run through it and then the fire comes back.

Just had a local call like this. a teenager lost his life when he was pinned and the suv caught fire (his 3friends got out) bystanders tried but he lost his life..it happens its life.


----------



## DV_EMT (Aug 12, 2009)

and you have to remember that steam burns are worse than contact burns.


----------



## Flight-LP (Aug 12, 2009)

Linuss said:


> Fire... maybe.
> 
> 
> But fire extinguishers don't instantly make red hot steel back to a touchable temp anytime soon.




Nor do people routinely carry them. I don't have one in my car and again since I'm not stopping, I wont have access to one. Guess the FD needs to boogey and save some lives!


----------



## el Murpharino (Aug 12, 2009)

Morons....crawling into an overturned car without any stabilization in place.  They're only increasing the potential for more patients at an already chaotic scene.  I can only imagine the scene control the first engine/ambulance in had to perform.  The people tearing the other car apart have already been discussed here ad nauseum.  

Can't expect much from a public that most likely has no medical/extrication training and a hero/I-want-to-be-on-TV complex.


----------

