# Babies Don't HAVE bones!



## MedicPrincess (Apr 15, 2005)

B.C. paramedics disciplined for denying treatment
CTV.ca News Staff

Two British Columbia paramedics who refused to treat a baby with a broken leg have been disciplined, but the one-year-old's mother wants to know exactly which penalties they are facing.

Angela Reynolds says she called emergency services after her son Connor tumbled down a flight of stairs in his grandmother's Burnaby home on March 24.

While the paramedics quickly arrived on scene, they told her it wasn't an emergency and left after refusing to take the boy to hospital, she told CTV Vancouver's Hazel MacClement.

She claims that one of the paramedics said babies don't have bones at that age.



BC Crews say "Babies don't have Bones"


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## Jon (Apr 15, 2005)

Babies have bones. They are VERY flexable. That is why when toddlers get broken bones, ED's immediatly think of abuse, as it takes quite a bit to break bones at that age.

Jon


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## rescuecpt (Apr 15, 2005)

What kind of morons were these people?  They should lose their certs - they obviously cheated to pass Peds and A&P.


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## Wingnut (Apr 15, 2005)




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## emtchicky156 (Apr 15, 2005)

Wow I hope they loss their certs, and are never allowed to have children.


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## Jon (Apr 15, 2005)

Woah.... everyone, hang on. Before we start saying these folks should be out of a job, lets wait and see what comes out of this. Is is possible that the medics seid what they said? yes. Is it likley - No. rembeber, the News media as a whole is VERY good at blowing out of proportion what was said and done.

Hindsight is 20/20. Should the crew have left? In hidsight, no. Perhaps mom refused care, or agreed to take the child POV. Perhaps the medics had a cardiac arrest to go to, Who knows.

Point is...We only have heard one side of the story. I would like to hear the other side of the story before I judge this.


Jon


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## MedicPrincess (Apr 15, 2005)

Jon-

Did you click the link and read it?  They have already been diciplined.  

What I am wondering, is maybe they tried explaining to her that babies bones are plyable and she misconstrued that as them saying Babies don't have bones.  

It is not so unreasonable for a panicky mom to misunderstand what was said.

It would be nice to hear the P's side though.


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## CodeSurfer (Apr 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by rescuecpt_@Apr 15 2005, 11:54 AM
> * What kind of morons were these people?  They should lose their certs - they obviously cheated to pass Peds and A&P. *


 I dont know if they would have had to cheat... I think they dont really ask if babies have bones. It seems a bit odd to ask anyone that, the answer should be obvious.  Maybe we could make a poll. :lol:


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## rescuecpt (Apr 15, 2005)

If they paid attention in class I'm sure at some point they would have learned about pediatric skeletal structure...  regardless, as medics I bet they can do IO's on peds... how do you do an intraosseous (sp?) if there is no osseous to go intra to??????  (hehe, how much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?)


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## TTLWHKR (Apr 15, 2005)

I was on 'vacation' in Ont, Alb, & Sask; Canada. I happened on the scene of a highway accident in Sask, I asked "how long will it take an ambulance". They said "we do things different up here". 

The people were dragged out, and put in the back of a MP Ram Charger type vehicle. No spinal protection, no bandaging, no splints... Wouldn't let me touch the people, I didn't even say I had training. Just that "I know First Aid and have a large kit". Nope, they don't do that.

Maybe they teach them that people don't have bones that can cause internal bleeding and tissue damage when fractured.  :angry:    :blink:


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## Jon (Apr 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by EMTPrincess_@Apr 15 2005, 01:13 PM
> * Jon-
> 
> Did you click the link and read it?  They have already been diciplined.
> ...


 Thats what I was saying - THey did SOMETHING wrong, but quite likely not anything they deserve to lose their cert over.


Jon


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## Summit (Apr 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by EMTPrincess_@Apr 15 2005, 01:13 PM
> * What I am wondering, is maybe they tried explaining to her that babies bones are plyable and she misconstrued that as them saying Babies don't have bones.
> 
> It is not so unreasonable for a panicky mom to misunderstand what was said.
> ...


 The P's side doesn't really matter much. They refused to rtansport when asked. they refuesed care when asked. They left.

Abandonment and Negligence.

Sidenote: it didn't state whether they were primary care paramedics (canuck for basic) or advanced care paramedics (canadian for paramedic)

i like that naming scheme. primary care sound a lot better than "basic"


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## Jon (Apr 16, 2005)

All depends - it may not be that cut and dried.... Mom may have NOT WANTED to go to the hospital at first, but now that she screwed up and her baby is hurt, she will blame everyone and anyone but herself. Welcome to North America.

Also, I've heard of some places having EMS-initiated refusal to transport protocols for BS stuff, so the resources are availible for another run quicker (Don't know who, but have heard of them)

Again, I'm not taking sides on this issue, just playing devil's advocate.


Jon


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## PArescueEMT (Apr 16, 2005)

alright... a zygote technacally has bones, so why would a baby not?????

commenting on jon's EMS initiated refusal...  :unsure: I have, after checking a Pt. out and finding no issues, attempeted to talk the Pt. out of going. Not in the same fashion as was described with the medics, but a gentle nudge in the direction of "see your doctor in the morning, but call us back if it gets worse"


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## Jon (Apr 16, 2005)

No - I'm saying I've heard of protocols that let EMS providers say - "there is nothing acutely wrong with you. Here is a cab voucher to go to the ED if you REALLY want."

Jon


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## ffemt8978 (Apr 16, 2005)

We have something similar to that.  If we feel that there is nothing emergently wrong with the patient and they still want to go via ambulance, we have them sign a form that basically informs them of the following:

1) We don't think there's anything seriously wrong with you to require transport in an ambulance
2) You have the right to be transported to the hospital via ambulance if you want
3) Your insurance company/Medicare may not pay your ambulance bill if they determine an ambulance wasn't required
4) You WILL be responsible for your ambulance bill if your insurance/Medicare doesn't pay it
5) We will use a collection agency if you fail to pay your bill

I haven't actually used this form yet and haven't seen it used.  I was going to talk to the chief about it next week, since I just foud them in the ambulances.


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## Jon (Apr 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ffemt8978_@Apr 16 2005, 11:07 AM
> * We have something similar to that.  If we feel that there is nothing emergently wrong with the patient and they still want to go via ambulance, we have them sign a form that basically informs them of the following:
> 
> 1) We don't think there's anything seriously wrong with you to require transport in an ambulance
> ...


 I've had them everywhere I've worked transport... usually called an "ABN" Advanced Benificary Notice: Says the medicare ain't gonna pay for this, so if you want to ride in the ambulance still, thats fine by me, but this here paper says you KNOW we think medicare ain't gonna pay, and you gonna have to pay....

Used it a couple of times, once was a 100+ mile Discharge from a hip replacement in philly to a rehab just outside of Washington DC. 12 hour+ round trip. <_< 

Also used them a couple of times for folks that insisted medicare would pay for them to take an ambulance home from the hospital when they could walk and climb stairs.

It is rare, I've only used it 4 or 5 times at most.


Jon


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## TKO (Apr 17, 2005)

> *Sidenote: it didn't state whether they were primary care paramedics (canuck for basic) or advanced care paramedics (canadian for paramedic)
> 
> i like that naming scheme. primary care sound a lot better than "basic" *



Whoa Whoa Whoa! I came on here just in time to hear the Canadian EMS bashing!!
I would definitly do yer research on Primary Care Medics and Advanced Care versus the Amercian systems naming and training/skills before tying to make it sound like "well if it was PCPs on scene they dont know anything".

Didnt hear about this till right now but you guys know as well as I do that the story may be completely different as some have already mentioned.



> *I was on 'vacation' in Ont, Alb, & Sask; Canada. I happened on the scene of a highway accident in Sask, I asked "how long will it take an ambulance". They said "we do things different up here".
> 
> The people were dragged out, and put in the back of a MP Ram Charger type vehicle. No spinal protection, no bandaging, no splints... Wouldn't let me touch the people, I didn't even say I had training. Just that "I know First Aid and have a large kit". Nope, they don't do that.*



I would like you to elaborate a little bit more on the town you were in when this happened since I have worked all over Sask. Also who said "we do things different up here"?

Just curious.


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## TTLWHKR (Apr 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by TKO_@Apr 17 2005, 12:58 AM
> *
> 
> 
> ...


:blink: 

No need to elaborate, I said all I needed to get my point across. I wasn't there to visit, I was simply driving through. We entered Canada in Ontario, and we were on a straight away route across Canada to Alaska, just decided to go across the provinces instead of down around Chicago, and back up to Montana and Washington. Came upon a car that had hit a tree, person was laying in the front seat, and one was laying in the grass along the road... RCMP vehicle came along about the same time we did. I was about to treat the guy in the road for a cpd fracture, but the officer said "I had better not do that". Pulled the one guy out through the window, tried to stand him up, but he wasn't able to. They put him on the floor, in the back of their very large 4x4 vehicle, and left, saying that someone would be along to take his vehicle away, and that we should be on our way....

 :blink: 

I had not seen a accident victim handled that way since the highway safety videos of the 1950's were shown in drivers education when I was in high school. I thought ems was well planned and gov't run in Canada? Sure don't teach the police what to do.


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## MedicPrincess (Apr 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by TKO_@Apr 17 2005, 12:58 AM
> * Whoa Whoa Whoa! I came on here just in time to hear the Canadian EMS bashing!!
> *


 Good Morning.  Lets get our panties out of that big ole bunch.  Nobody is bashing the Canadian EMS system.  Not directly.  Its as simple as this:

TTLWHKR was just telling us his (or her, not sure about that one) observations from what he/she observed.

And Summit was just pointing out the naming differences.  Since a Primary Care Paramedic is the US Equivlent to the EMT-B I would bet my next test grade that he wasn't bashing them, just pointing out naming differences.  You know, like Province vs State, Coke vs Pepsi, Ford vs Chevy......they are all basically the same, with some minor differences.

And for the record, when I lived in Europe (Germany) I watched them treat a person who had ran into the back of a car on his motorcycle and rolled over the trunk landing on the ground, in nearly the same fashion.  No visable bleeding, tried to get him to walk to the ambulance.  He couldn't, so they did what amounted to a basket carry to get him there.  But I am not bashing the EMS system there, it is just different.

The point is, everyone here is trying make (I Think) is it doesn't matter what country a baby is from, the do have bones.  And if that mama wanted her baby transported he should have been.  What if the end of that bone cut the femoral artery and the baby had died?  Thank goodness he is just in a cast.


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## Jon (Apr 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by EMTPrincess_@Apr 17 2005, 07:02 AM
> * TTLWHKR was just telling us his (or her, not sure about that one) observations from what he/she observed.
> *


 TTLWHKR is the EMT formerly known as Blue.



> *But I am not bashing the EMS system there, it is just different.*



You will see the same thing anywhere you look... Stupid providers who are burned out and/or just don't care and will be lazy. I've seen guys walk pt's to the truck, have pt. climb into truck to lay on backboard and be strapped down.

Blue - Don't know where in Canada (rural/urban) but I've heard of the same happening in extreme rural settings, as the closest EMS is 15-20 minutes or more away. Philly PD does it in the city for GSW's - often if they can't *hear *the medic unit, the pt. is in the back of the wagon and class I to the closest trauma center.


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## TKO (Apr 17, 2005)

Well dont take this all the wrong way I am not that upset just had to get my point across also. 
As for the one instance with the RCMP taking the pt away well they dont have any training besides maybe first aid and cpr. Ambulance here is not affiliated with the RCMP at all. Every province is different in Sask they are private and here in BC where I am living now it is government run. If you were in rural Sask then yes EMS probably would have taken a good 20 + mins.


> *Since a Primary Care Paramedic is the US Equivlent to the EMT-B *


Not too sure about being the same eviquivalent actually. Now that they went and changed eveything over to "something" Care Paramedic we all have new skills and training. We used to be called EMT-B and so on but have been given a greater scope of practise with the PCP course. But who knows I dont really know much about the American system just from what is rumoured.

Lesson learned is never use exclamation marks when making a point!!!!


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## TTLWHKR (Apr 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by EMTPrincess_@Apr 17 2005, 07:02 AM
> *
> TTLWHKR was just telling us his (or her, not sure about that one) observations from what he/she observed.
> 
> *


 TTLWHKR - AKA - TOTALWHACKER - AKA - BLUE

Is 100% Male...


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## ffemt8978 (Apr 17, 2005)

:lol: 

I was wondering when you were going to respond to that one!


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## TTLWHKR (Apr 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by MedicStudentJon_@Apr 17 2005, 12:37 PM
> *
> Blue *


 TTLWHKR


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## TTLWHKR (Apr 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ffemt8978_@Apr 17 2005, 05:36 PM
> * :lol:
> 
> I was wondering when you were going to respond to that one! *


 There was a forest fire... Apparently "Red Flag Warning" and "Burn Ban In Effect", means that people should set large bon fires in wooded areas, then try to put out the ensuing massive brush fire with cups of water, then walk six miles till you get cell phone use to call someone and ask what you should do... wait another 45 minutes till the old guy in the forestry tower wakes up from his nap and spots flames leaping from the ridge line, and wait along side the road till someone comes along and ask if their bon fire is supposed to be 75 acres in size...

<rests his  fingers>


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## MedicPrincess (Apr 17, 2005)

Sorry..I know no "blue man"

Did I know you when you were blue?

But I should say, I am glad things are looking up for you and your no longer blue.


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## ffemt8978 (Apr 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by TTLWHKR_@Apr 17 2005, 03:59 PM
> * till someone comes along and ask if their bon fire is supposed to be 75 acres in size...
> 
> *


 Only if you're trying to make a 5000 lb S'more.  :lol:


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## CodeSurfer (Apr 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by EMTPrincess_@Apr 17 2005, 07:02 AM
> * Coke vs Pepsi......they are all basically the same, with some minor differences.
> *


 Pepsi is not basically the same as Coke.



 :blink: Coke.... Peh!!!!!!!!!!!!! :blink:


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## Jon (Apr 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ffemt8978+Apr 17 2005, 08:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (ffemt8978 @ Apr 17 2005, 08:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-TTLWHKR_@Apr 17 2005, 03:59 PM
> * till someone comes along and ask if their bon fire is supposed to be 75 acres in size...
> 
> *


Only if you're trying to make a 5000 lb S'more.  :lol: [/b][/quote]
 LMAO!!!!

(Is this an ok post to use exclamtion points?)


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## rescuecpt (Apr 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by MedicStudentJon+Apr 18 2005, 10:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (MedicStudentJon @ Apr 18 2005, 10:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LMAO!!!!

(Is this an ok post to use exclamtion points?) [/b][/quote]
 LOL, I think so.


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## TTLWHKR (Apr 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by MedicStudentJon_@Apr 18 2005, 10:49 AM
> *
> (Is this an ok post to use exclamtion points?) *


 Am I missing something?


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## CodeSurfer (Apr 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by TTLWHKR+Apr 18 2005, 11:21 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (TTLWHKR @ Apr 18 2005, 11:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-MedicStudentJon_@Apr 18 2005, 10:49 AM
> *
> (Is this an ok post to use exclamtion points?) *


Am I missing something? [/b][/quote]
 LMAO @ your new avatar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol:


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## MedicPrincess (Apr 18, 2005)

I love your new picture for your name TTLWCKD!

Thanks for clearing that up for everyone. :lol:


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## emt3225 (Apr 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by rescuecpt_@Apr 15 2005, 11:54 AM
> * What kind of morons were these people?  They should lose their certs - they obviously cheated to pass Peds and A&P. *


 i was thinking the same thing...what fools...  :unsure:


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