# EMT-B vs OET



## savelives (Jan 5, 2012)

Where can I find the difference in protocols/scope of practice for EMT-B's vs OEC certs? 

Challenging the OEC exam so I've gotta get on my sh*t cuz its been awhile.

Thanks


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## Handsome Robb (Jan 6, 2012)

They are basically the same. No huge differences off the top of my head.


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## savelives (Jan 6, 2012)

Apparently they want us to run some of the scenarios differently? I'm used to splinting injuries in the ambulance on the way to the hospital so it would be a little weird splinting something on scene (except sling & swath and backboarding of course) I'm just gonna ask the sp director on monday and try to get some extra training in with them. It'd be nice to get their protocol book too.


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## Handsome Robb (Jan 6, 2012)

That makes sense considering you can't exactly sit in a toboggan with someone and splint hte injury during transport. :rofl:


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## savelives (Jan 6, 2012)

Would love to see someone try that though lol


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## medicdan (Jan 6, 2012)

My understanding is that OEC spends more time (and effort) on trauma-- particularly skills appropriate for skiing injuries, and much less time on medical disorders or treatment. OEC also includes/discusses evacuation techniques and particular rescue skills in place of ambulance ops, HazMat, etc. 

I also understand OEC training is only accepted at the mountain where it was trained for-- and while there is national certification, it has very limited scope away from home. Is that true?


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## savelives (Jan 6, 2012)

Just emailed a director of a mountain closer to my permanent address that exact question and his response was "OEC is OEC" howeve I can see how an organization would want to train/give favor to personal trained in-house.


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## Handsome Robb (Jan 6, 2012)

emt.dan said:


> My understanding is that OEC spends more time (and effort) on trauma-- particularly skills appropriate for skiing injuries, and much less time on medical disorders or treatment. OEC also includes/discusses evacuation techniques and particular rescue skills in place of ambulance ops, HazMat, etc.
> 
> I also understand OEC training is only accepted at the mountain where it was trained for-- and while there is national certification, it has very limited scope away from home. Is that true?



You understand correctly. 


As you said OEC is a national certification but it is not mountain specific. It is the same across the board at any mountain you work at. Some mountains may have different protocols but for scope of practice, it's the same nationally.  

savelives when it comes to splinting, as an EMT there's no reason to not splint an injury on scene unless another life threatening issue is present. With that said, you don't need to go splinting every little injury if the person is going in full spinal motion restriction as they are lying on one giant splint.


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## savelives (Jan 6, 2012)

Word. Still tweaking a little about the skiing portion though. Heading out to the mountain for the third time this week tomorrow for some extra practice. Good news is the mountain I will work at apparently is willing to compromise ski ability slightly for ems experience/emt cert. fingers crossed gentlemen.


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## JCyrus (Jan 6, 2012)

It sounds like you may have gotten the answer you were looking for already.  But the OEC textbook IS available to the public and may help you in translating your EMT skills to the OEC testing.  If you don't want to put money into buying it, maybe someone on the patrol might have an old copy laying around to lend to you?


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## AK_SAR (Jan 6, 2012)

JCyrus said:


> ....But the OEC textbook IS available to the public and may help you in translating your EMT skills to the OEC testing.  If you don't want to put money into buying it, maybe someone on the patrol might have an old copy laying around to lend to you?


 Just be aware that NSP has gone to a brand new 5th edition OEC book.  There are some changes, so make sure you are using that (most recent) edition.

As noted above, OEC is a national program, so there shouldn't be any differences in challenging the course from place to place.  However, once you get on a patrol different mountains may have slightly different local protocals, depending on their medical advisor.


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## hherrn (Feb 18, 2012)

OEC 5th edition has moved more toward EMS.

The only thing you want is 5th edition- significant changes.  Under no circumstances should you rely on previous knowlege or common sense.  You will be responsible for the material in the book.

The OEC is universally accepted by any NSP patrol.  Once certified in OEC, any patrol will have its own requirements and hoops to jump through.  Every patrol is different.  Even whithin a patrol, there are often different standards for paid staff and vollunteers.

Patrol is fun- I used to be fulltime, and continues as a vollunteer.


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## zmedic (Feb 18, 2012)

One of the big differences is that ski patrol tends to expect a higher level of forearm splinting, sling and swath ability, and ability to deal with shoulders stuck up (blaket rolls). It's not that the skills aren't part of the EMT class, but I've found that most EMTs spent about 10 minutes working on putting on slings in their class. Ski patrol expects a better splint that is going to work when the patient is bouncing around in a sled. 

Don't get my started on the new OEC textbook. I feel like NSP is trying to position OEC as the answer to all pre hospital medical training. Want to be a river guide? Take OEC. Want to learn about HAZMAT? There is a chapter in the book on that too. The problem is that OEC classes aren't actually long enough to go through about 65% of what is in the book, so you have the huge thing that no one will actually read. WEMT or WFR is a much better class for those who want to be wilderness professionals. And if you are doing OEC to be ski patrol, do you really chapters on advanced airway management, ambulance operations (where to park the rig), etc etc?


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## Jon (Feb 18, 2012)

zmedic said:


> One of the big differences is that ski patrol tends to expect a higher level of forearm splinting, sling and swath ability, and ability to deal with shoulders stuck up (blaket rolls). It's not that the skills aren't part of the EMT class, but I've found that most EMTs spent about 10 minutes working on putting on slings in their class. Ski patrol expects a better splint that is going to work when the patient is bouncing around in a sled.



Amen. It's sad, but I've come to believe that the average Boy Scout can do a better job immobilizing a fracture than an EMT. And heaven forbid if the EMT doesn't have a SAM splint to use .




zmedic said:


> Don't get my started on the new OEC textbook. I feel like NSP is trying to position OEC as the answer to all pre hospital medical training. Want to be a river guide? Take OEC. Want to learn about HAZMAT? There is a chapter in the book on that too. The problem is that OEC classes aren't actually long enough to go through about 65% of what is in the book, so you have the huge thing that no one will actually read. WEMT or WFR is a much better class for those who want to be wilderness professionals. And if you are doing OEC to be ski patrol, do you really chapters on advanced airway management, ambulance operations (where to park the rig), etc etc?



That said, in PA, OEC has been determined to be materially similar to MFR - and our DOH considers it an acceptable course to test for MFR. At some point, if the class wants to be recognized by more than JUST NSP, it needs to expand to cover other things.


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## JPINFV (Feb 19, 2012)

In general, states license EMTs, thus granting EMTs the ability to perform otherwise restricted interventions. This is called a scope of practice.

Most states do not have a "wilderness" level of EMT, as such they do not license anyone to have a "wilderness" scope of practice, and OEC does not have, in the strictest sense, any scope of practice. 

Now, there are multiple ways to skin a cat, and depending on the circumstances the basic EMT scope and training is not fully appropriate, but that doesn't mean that the alternative has a scope of practice.


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## Handsome Robb (Feb 19, 2012)

Jon said:


> Amen. It's sad, but I've come to believe that the average Boy Scout can do a better job immobilizing a fracture than an EMT. And heaven forbid if the EMT doesn't have a SAM splint to use .



Splinting is one of those skills that you truly have to use and practice to become good at it, IMO. Also, creativity is a must.


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## Jon (Feb 19, 2012)

NVRob said:


> Jon said:
> 
> 
> > Amen. It's sad, but I've come to believe that the average Boy Scout can do a better job immobilizing a fracture than an EMT. And heaven forbid if the EMT doesn't have a SAM splint to use .
> ...




I totally agree. Whenever I break out the Board Splints and rig something up, at least one co-worker asks "where the heck did you learn that" Answer: Scouting.


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## JPINFV (Feb 19, 2012)

I think the reason Scouting does so good is that it isn't as ridged as what is taught in EMT school. For Scouting, you do what you need to with what you have on hand. If that means sticks and scraps of clothing, then that's it. What I think happens with EMTs is that EMTs are taught one way of doing something, and often leave class thinking that is the only way and no deviation can occur.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Feb 19, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> I think the reason Scouting does so good is that it isn't as ridged as what is taught in EMT school. For Scouting, you do what you need to with what you have on hand. If that means sticks and scraps of clothing, then that's it. What I think happens with EMTs is that EMTs are taught one way of doing something, and often leave class thinking that is the only way and no deviation can occur.



I love you JP.  Do you know hard it is to beat the "this is how we are supposed to do it" out of provide?  To quote the founder of NOLS:  "Rules are for fools!"   In the outdoors there can not be a rule for every situation.  The greatest tool you have is the ability to think.  MacGyver is the man.  In my opinion, if you do not have 10 ways to do one thing, you suck.


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## EpiEMS (Feb 19, 2012)

Silly question: How difficult would it be/how much prep would be needed for an EMT-B to challenge OEC? It sounds like the EMT-B program covers most of it, and all that would be needed is to brush up on skiing and read the OEC book.


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## Handsome Robb (Feb 20, 2012)

EpiEMS said:


> Silly question: How difficult would it be/how much prep would be needed for an EMT-B to challenge OEC? It sounds like the EMT-B program covers most of it, and all that would be needed is to brush up on skiing and read the OEC book.



The OEC course itself doesn't teach you about skiing....no reason to study it...

I'm the first to say it, and some people might hate me for it, but if you aren't a good skier, comfortable on pretty much any terrain you have no business working as a patroller. Doesn't mean you have to go fast but you need to know what you are doing.


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## zmedic (Feb 20, 2012)

Jon; said:
			
		

> That said, in PA, OEC has been determined to be materially similar to MFR - and our DOH considers it an acceptable course to test for MFR. At some point, if the class wants to be recognized by more than JUST NSP, it needs to expand to cover other things.



My issue is less using OEC as a first responder course. It's more that the way it is taught, and the length of time that is spent is not close to WEMT class. WEMT was 200 hours when I took it, OEC more like 60-80. WFR is also about 80 but OEC spends most of it's time on the "urban" skills (I don't think it matters if you are doing it out in the woods, if you are using backboards, c-collars, 02 tanks and SAM splints it's urban type medicine). 

It just bothers me that the NSP is selling itself this way because they think they can get more people to take the course if it's seen as being for more than just ski patrollers. 

Now as to if you are an EMT can you just take the OEC test? I'd say if you were in a really good EMT class sure, and you are solid on your skills. You just need to practice splinting and play with some of the tools that patrol uses that you may not have seen (KTD, quick splint etc)


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