# The Doctor’s War



## NepoZnati (Apr 12, 2010)

> Five kids blown up playing with a land mine in the Alasay Valley, northeast of Kabul. The call came late on a slow afternoon, and the medevac crew at Bagram Air Field, the main U.S. base in Afghanistan, waited for the go-ahead to pick up its patients. But just as soldiers have rules of engagement for when and whom they can shoot, battlefield doctors have rules for when and whom they can help. And at this moment, the U.S. military’s Craig Joint Theater Hospital at Bagram didn’t have the room; some beds had to be left open in case wounded coalition troops were brought in.
> ...



*October 2009 ATLANTIC MAGAZINE*


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## CAOX3 (Apr 13, 2010)

I suggest an exception could have been made for blown up children considering we as adults turned their playground in a F'n war zone.

Call me crazy.


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## nemedic (Apr 15, 2010)

CAOX3 said:


> I suggest an exception could have been made for blown up children considering we as adults turned their playground in a F'n war zone.
> 
> Call me crazy.



Call me crazy, but if I am not mistaken, it was the Soviet Union, and also the Taliban that placed the untold numbers of landmines, not the U.S. Also, One could easily argue that their "playground" was a warzone since well before any of the injured were born, and well before the majority of personnel serving in country joined the military. (Soviets 1979-89, various factions of Mujihadeen '89-96, Taliban '96-01, U.S. and ANA/ANP '01-)


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## Tincanfireman (Apr 15, 2010)

Read the article and you'll find that an exception was made for two of the three, with the least injured going to another facility.  Like it or not, there is a priority system (that's in the article, too), and beds must be left available.  I currently have a son serving in a combat unit near Jalalabad, Afghanistan, and if he is wounded he should receive the very best care available from the US medics. If all the beds are full, he doesn't get the best, he gets what's available. This is compounded by the fact that the Taliban is causing more injuries and mortalities than anyone, but I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a Taliban hospital to treat all the Afghan civilians injured by insurgent IED's. The US has a far larger and well-equipped medical presence in the Afghan theater than any other nation and treat far more civilians than any other nation's medical personnel.  In addition, USAF Pararescue and Army DUSTOFF flights provide medevac flights to civilians as well, even when they weren't combat related. In the case of one particular Air Force mission, the crew of a USAF Special Ops bird (callsign Kommodo 11) all died when their helicopter went down in a blizzard enroute to evacuate two Afghan girls with non-combat related head injuries. This man and his crewmates will never see their own children grow up because they died trying to save two hurt kids. It's sad that innocents get hurt in a war, and it's sadder still when they are kids. I just really dislike the fact that more US publication column-inches get spent on stories like this than on all the good our troops are doing. If for no other reason than they stood tall and raised their right hand, our men and women deserve the very best care that's available if they need it.  It's unfortunate that not everyone can receive the best care available, but US troops deserve US care ahead of anyone, period.


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## NepoZnati (Apr 15, 2010)

nemedic said:


> Call me crazy, but if I am not mistaken, it was the Soviet Union, and also the Taliban that placed the untold numbers of landmines, not the U.S.





> Unexploded US bomblets
> 
> Since October 2001, American warplanes have dropped thousands of bombs on Taliban front lines, including "cluster bombs," in which nearly 10 percent of the scattered bomblets may not have exploded.
> *"We completely forgot about the Russian bombs and mines when we saw American cluster bombs,"* says Nazir Ahmad, a de-miner for the Organization for Mine Clearance and Afghan Rehabilitation (OMAR) here in Jalalabad.
> ...


http://www.mineclearance.org/page2.html


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## NepoZnati (Apr 15, 2010)

Tincanfireman said:


> This is compounded by the fact that the Taliban is causing more injuries and mortalities than anyone, but I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a Taliban hospital to treat all the Afghan civilians injured by insurgent IED's.


More then raining bombs or drones on completely villages? I didn't read Tali's got those weapons but then again I spent my time reading those US publication that spent they column-inches on stories like this... Damn liberals.


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## Tincanfireman (Apr 15, 2010)

All due respect to differing opinions, but I've said my piece and I'm not going to debate on the myriad issues surrounding what's happened since 9/11, or even before. The US involvement in Southwest Asia isn't perfect by any means, but my point was that US troops deserve US beds more than anyone else, and I stand by my thoughts as I expressed them above.


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## NepoZnati (Apr 15, 2010)

I respect you and your opinions/views, and those noble example you mention... My point is that one can be patriotic and bias due to this or that, even for wrong reasons, but to claim that one side is better and count who take less innocent lives is ridiculous... There are no "better" sides in the war since war itself if dirty business. And for me, murder is murder no matter from which side or for what reasons. That's all.


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## mycrofft (Apr 16, 2010)

*Every injury is a strike for the Taliban.*

1. They claim the victim is a collaborator/infidel, or they claim we did it (and sometimes that's right), but no matter  the cause, when we don't help it's fodder for them.
2. Doctors without Borders...a message in itself.
3. Shortage of resources results in rationing of care; mission and our own are first. If the mission is hearts and minds in certain areas, then flood them with civil engineers, medical personnel, and police/fire cadres to help get them back on their feet.
4. Look up "aerial sown mine fields", something we have odne i the past. Also, submunitions from cluster bombs, while not intentionally designed to look like toys etc., are a novelty when found.


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## joeshmoe (Apr 16, 2010)

I think this is an example of why us troops arent very good at counter insurgency. When you have the mindset that you are inherently better than the people you are amongst, that your lives are more important than theres, the people you are there to "help" are gonna know it and resent it. You are gonna wear out your welcome pretty fast.

I agreed with going into Afghanistan, it was a justifiable clear cut case of self defense, unlike the idiotic immoral cluster:censored: in iraq. Unfortunately I think the longer we stay the less likely a successful outcome has become. We had the chance to go in there with overwhelming force right after 9/11 and getting our fish while they were in a barrel, instead we half assed it so we could launch bushs big iraqi adventure. We've been paying for it ever since.


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## Motojunkie (Apr 16, 2010)

I'm not sure how much blame should be laid on the men on the ground as Rules of Engagement have a lot to do with it.


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## mycrofft (Apr 16, 2010)

*Getting shot at a lot also has somethig to do with it*

Afghanistan has a history of making it's many invaders pay. Allegiances are tribal and clan based, but when you have the Russians, the British, the Americans, or Pakistani and other Taliban sitting on your property, you will go along to get along and maybe get the drop on peolple not of your clan, or tribe.

Kids in places like that will also be approached by folks who will pay them for unexploded or stolen/stockpiled ordnance they come across. If ten year old Hakim is found with a 80mm mortar projectile in a gunnysack, he is in less trouble than his older brother Clarence. If HAkim gets his legs blown off...blame the Americans/Russians/neighboring warlord.


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## joeshmoe (Apr 16, 2010)

I'm not blaming the troops themselves, but rather the doctrine they follow and the country that puts them in these situations. Counter insurgency requires the troops involved take risks and expose themselves. If those risks are deemed unacceptable, dont send the troops on such missions. 

You cant have it both ways, go somewhere claiming its all about helping the locals, but then adopt a shoot first ask questions later mindset, or deny some dying kids medical care because some of your own troops MAY need medical attention in the immediate future.

The military is different from EMS, where safety comes before all else. In the military, at least when I was in, mission accomplishment came before all else. If that is not acceptable to someone, they should not join the military. And if a mission is not worth risking the troops lives, then that mission should not be launched(again Iraq comes to mind). 

Ill get off my soapbox before I wear out my welcome here.


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## mycrofft (Apr 16, 2010)

*Naw, joeschmoe, I think you're right on.*

HOwever, if I've reached an agreement with the local strongman and his people stop potshotting at me and are busy mopping up thioer enemies with our help, then we pour in the hearts and minds stuff.
Kind like Haiti over and over. Or is that an oxymoron.


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## mycrofft (Apr 16, 2010)

*A website about the subject of a good book.*

http://www.aftermathpictures.com/aftermat/demineur.html




Stones, man, sheer stones.

ANd in Germany too:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-70169.html


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## CAOX3 (Apr 16, 2010)

nemedic said:


> Call me crazy, but if I am not mistaken, it was the Soviet Union, and also the Taliban that placed the untold numbers of landmines, not the U.S. Also, One could easily argue that their "playground" was a warzone since well before any of the injured were born, and well before the majority of personnel serving in country joined the military. (Soviets 1979-89, various factions of Mujihadeen '89-96, Taliban '96-01, U.S. and ANA/ANP '01-)




Oh well in that case if we werent directly at fault for their injuries screw them.  

My political views aside I would find it hard to leave a dying child in the street over a policy.


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## Veneficus (Apr 16, 2010)

*counter insurgency strategy? Laughable.*

"War is a moral contest, it is won in the temperments before it is faught"

-Sun Tzu


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## Shishkabob (Apr 16, 2010)

I like Jefferson's quote more:


"We're in a war damnit, we have to offend somebody!"


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## Veneficus (Apr 16, 2010)

I think it is great that when the US goes to war we are not supposed to kill anyone.

By convention, a civillian engaging in combat is no longer a civillian, whether they are regular or irregular troops is inconsequential. 

Oh well, more of the same, the US just can't fight a war anymore. I'll save the discussion on failed strategies for the non EMS boards though.


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## Jon (Apr 16, 2010)

The story is a shame... but I really can't fathom why this is worthy of publication. I think it's odd that until 30 or 40 years ago, the US Military was awesome, amazing, and could do no wrong... then come Vietnam, and it then became "cool" to throw dog feces at returning troops.

I have a good friend that was seriously injured in Afghanistan by some form of IED the beginning of this month. As I  looked online to try to figure out what happened, it became very obvious that IED attacks are still a daily occurrence - but it doesn't really make the news... if it does, it makes a small, home-town newspaper when one dies. It's depressing to realize that no one else knows it's happening.

Reading this article - what would have happened if my friend and his comrades needed those trauma services? Every trauma center I've ever seen has a requirement of a free bed - in the trauma bay, in the SICU, etc... or they go on divert. I would assume that diversion isn't an option, so they divert the non-solider patients before they come in the door. It's a military hospital, and its primary customers are the US military.


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## NepoZnati (Apr 17, 2010)

joeshmoe said:


> I'm not blaming the troops themselves, but rather the doctrine they follow and the country that puts them in these situations. Counter insurgency requires the troops involved take risks and expose themselves. If those risks are deemed unacceptable, dont send the troops on such missions...
> Ill get off my soapbox before I wear out my welcome here.


X2 I agree with all you smartly said



CAOX3 said:


> My political views aside I would find it hard to leave a dying child in the street over a policy.


THANK you


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## NepoZnati (Apr 17, 2010)

*To all...*

First off, if I knew that my little post would generate so much controversy I would never posted. But, since I did, and after all this said, I feel I need to make my intentions clear. 

I posted that article to show selfless behavior of that medic that fight the triage doctor on the door, standing up for his patient against rules that says one's life is more important than others... It is great thing what that medic did, and it is good decision of triage doctor who let that second kid in. Isn't' that what we should do in EMS? Provide the care and fight for our patients?  

Withholding the medical assistance in case of "what can be" is morally repugnant... There is obligation of one who is invading one's country that he needs to own it all responsibilities and provide help when needed. If I am not mistaken, that is core of what US military used to do always... Provide the medical help to the enemy on the battlefield once battle is over? 

We can talk more about politics and stupid decisions and lies that put American son's and daughter's in harm's way in place they should never be, or reasons why are so much billions spent for phony wars while EMS services, Medicare and social security get's cut and denied here, but like one member said before, that is NOT topic for EMS forum. War and killings is antithesis of EMS and saving life, right? 

My intentions with this post was to honor that brave medic and doctor for fighting the establishment and helping those in need, and to honor all of you here who are doing that every day on regular basis.


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## mycrofft (Apr 17, 2010)

*No, good deal. THis discussion shouldn't be limited to warriors and pacifists per se.*

I wish we had more direct responses from our Iraeli, Palestinian, Sudanese, etc. counterparts. I had the fortune of of talking to one of my professors who was an ambulance driver in London during The Blitz, and one of my clinical instructors was an Army nurse at Pleiku, Vietnam, as well as the folks I encountered before and after trying once to learn my trade as a potential combat medical person, then later just learning more about "the human condition". They had to deal not only with the nightmare we all carry of being overwhelmed, but also the feelings of helplessness and futility when one is swept up into (or run over by) conflicts as big as these.

The U.S. walked on water during WWII because press access was controled and national censorship was in place. However, we did make government and private overtures to help get Germany and Japan back on thier feet.

Read Kaplan's book, The Dressing Station.
Read Kurt Vonnegut's essays.


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## Veneficus (Apr 17, 2010)

*Put me firmly in the warrior column.*

2 years into the iraq war I was approached by an antiwar group to give a presentation on the health affects of war. 

Prior to accepting I informed them there were positive aspects of war on medicine and therefore healthcare in general, and they still paid me to come. 

It is important to note that while my politics of war is that we should win and that is not possible in our current conflicts with our current political process, the fact remains that even if individuals get turned away for care from trauma related to the weaponry, the destruction of the environment making it uninhabitable, or the diseases from the aftermath, Healthcare and other projects being given in conflict zones to the indiginous populations is considerably better than the healthcare available to Americans with even greater economic status, and the public works are greater than has been done in the US in 60+ years.

You hardly ever see in the news when some po dunk hospital kills somebody from their lack of knowledge, resources, or capabillity. When you do, it is a statement on how far they have come from being nothing. 

Objective journalism is gone. If a story cannot be made sensational, then it is not told. 

Since we cannot win, the only question is how much will we lose?  The recent conflicts are the epitomy of a bleeding investment.


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## mycrofft (Apr 17, 2010)

*I think Kate Gosselin should be a combat nurse then.*

Remember the publicity when Natasha Richardson succumbed to a hidden intracranial bleed?

Back a step: someof the munitions the French are unearthing are from the Franco-Prussian War, and WWI (the latter can include mustard agents, phosgene).


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