# "High Schoolers and Heart Attacks..."



## slawson (Jan 19, 2007)

In all my years of public service, and my short stint of EMS, I have never heard or seen anything that comes close to this. Apparently, in Darien CT the high school there runs an EMS service. I think this is amazing and am jelous that I did not have this same oppertunity. This could prove to be disasterous if done improperly, but this school seems to have it under great supervision and has done an excellent job (just based on the report). 

Let me know what you think. I am anxious to hear commentary from the more experienced personel.

By the way, the video seems like it is malfunctioning at first as it starts, then restarts, let it play, give it about 15 seconds and it will restart again and play the way through.

Thanks!

YouTube Video​


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## Chimpie (Jan 19, 2007)

Interesting none the less.  And I'd like to slap the reporter for bashing on the kids by calling them "pimply-faced teenagers".  He could have done a better job, IMO, but the story was told.  

If they are trained, certified, and proven they could do the job, then that's great.


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## Ridryder911 (Jan 19, 2007)

Been around for a long while... most states have wised up and require adult requirements. Disney had a TV series about one service that was ran by high school. 

Until about a year or two ago, many allowed them to drive emergency status as well. There was a sharp increase in EVO accidents involving youth, and many insurance companies have raised age up to 21 to 23. 

As well, most are not aware of the liability risks they place their parents at. PTSD has as well have been addressed as a potential problem of exposing younger adults to too much stress and critical decision making. 

I was an avid supporter at one time (former EMS explorer & post advisor). Now, I have went against it totally. We have an EMT program locally for high school seniors. Out of eight years of program only two have became EMT's (am/ p.m. classes). Because of behavior, immaturity, apathy, they are no longer welcomed locally for clinicals at ER or EMS. We had thought at one time, it was associated with the instructor, but we have had 3 competent Paramedics as instructors, without change from students. 

The field is hard, dangerous, and very stressful at times. Yes, give some third party rides with a Supv. and some first responder classes, but to place as working medics no. 

R/r 911


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## VinBin (Jan 19, 2007)

I agree with you on most accounts, Rid. I think the problem is, it is pushed into High School in most areas, advertised, if you will. There was a commercial out (MN I think) recruiting EMTs, what did they have? Blazing lights/sirens, high speed, the jaded/cool medic who roamed the streets saving every MI and Shooting victim. 

What High Schooler doesn't want to be that (esp. driving fast)?? Real EMS is composed of very little of the things advertised. Some dont have the maturity to deal with it, hell a lot of older people who get into EMS dont have the maturity to deal with it either. 

Those that truly want to pursue it (no matter what age), will and won't do it for a commercial on TV but will decide after true research, ride alongs...etc.


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## FF/EMT Sam (Jan 20, 2007)

Ridryder911 said:


> Been around for a long while... most states have wised up and require adult requirements. Disney had a TV series about one service that was ran by high school.
> 
> Until about a year or two ago, many allowed them to drive emergency status as well. There was a sharp increase in EVO accidents involving youth, and many insurance companies have raised age up to 21 to 23.
> 
> ...



R/Rid, while I am not disputing your experiences, it all depends on the individual.  I am a High School senior, will be 18 in several weeks, and have been running emergency calls for over a year.  I have been a certified EMT since June.  Our department, as well as many other rural volunteer squads, relies on our high schoolers and "under 21" crowd.  There are certainly teenagers who should not be anywhere near a rescue squad , but please do not declare us to be categorically unfit to serve.


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## mrdell4150 (Jan 20, 2007)

Yea, I saw the news program also. I was wondering how it all worked though. What if they get a day full of calls? I know I would never be able to make up work like that during school. I am the same age as them so I guess I can relate. If they can get it done, so be it.


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## Ridryder911 (Jan 20, 2007)

FF/EMT Sam said:


> R/Rid, while I am not disputing your experiences, it all depends on the individual.  I am a High School senior, will be 18 in several weeks, and have been running emergency calls for over a year.  I have been a certified EMT since June.  Our department, as well as many other rural volunteer squads, relies on our high schoolers and "under 21" crowd.  There are certainly teenagers who should not be anywhere near a rescue squad , but please do not declare us to be categorically unfit to serve.




Did'nt call you unfit to serve, just should not serve by providing direct patient care. There are multitude of things that can be learned and accomplished other than that. Sorry, I realize not all should be categorized or lumped in one sum, but patient care should be handled by those of legal age. 

R/r 911


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## FF/EMT Sam (Jan 20, 2007)

Ridryder911 said:


> Did'nt call you unfit to serve, just should not serve by providing direct patient care. There are multitude of things that can be learned and accomplished other than that. Sorry, I realize not all should be categorized or lumped in one sum, but patient care should be handled by those of legal age.
> 
> R/r 911



I think the patients that I've helped might disagree with you.


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## Stevo (Jan 21, 2007)

seems there's quite a few _'pimply faced kids'_ making life or death decisions in Iraq for us right now

if they are good enough for that, they're good enough to ride with me anytime...

~S~


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## MMiz (Jan 21, 2007)

I believe in the right community, and with the appropriate training, "Teen EMTs" can be a valuable community resource.  This is a far too simplified response, I know, but I think that it's unfair to make blanket generalizations about any group.


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## wolfwyndd (Jan 25, 2007)

Ridryder911 said:


> Did'nt call you unfit to serve, just should not serve by providing direct patient care. There are multitude of things that can be learned and accomplished other than that. Sorry, I realize not all should be categorized or lumped in one sum, but patient care should be handled by those of legal age.
> R/r 911


Why can't a teen provide patient care?  As long as their are a certified EMT, what does it matter of they are 16 or 66?  I know of some EMT's a LOT older that I wouldn't want treating my dog let alone someone in my family.  I don't believe it's the age that matters, but the competency level.  If they can prove themselves competent to the State to get licensed it wouldn't matter to me.  

BTW, I assume when you say 'legal age' that means legal to drive.  Because if you are refering to 'legal age' meaning legal to drink I'm going to have to agree with Stevo that there are plenty of those pimply faced kids old enough to go get killed in a combat zone.  IMO if they are old enough to go KILL someone, then they are old enough to SAVE some one.


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## slawson (Jan 25, 2007)

wolfwyndd said:


> Why can't a teen provide patient care?  As long as their are a certified EMT, what does it matter of they are 16 or 66?  I know of some EMT's a LOT older that I wouldn't want treating my dog let alone someone in my family.  I don't believe it's the age that matters, but the competency level.  If they can prove themselves competent to the State to get licensed it wouldn't matter to me.
> 
> BTW, I assume when you say 'legal age' that means legal to drive.  Because if you are refering to 'legal age' meaning legal to drink I'm going to have to agree with Stevo that there are plenty of those pimply faced kids old enough to go get killed in a combat zone.  IMO if they are old enough to go KILL someone, then they are old enough to SAVE some one.




I agree with what you said. However, there is one thing that I think you sould think about. There are a signifigant % of people who come back from war (iraq) who are 18-21 that I personally know, that are truley changed individuals. People that just aren't mature enough to handle what they have seen and done. Although I'm sure that combat is a little different than EMS, some of the same traits remain. You are dealing with the worse of life. Although the right type of person who is in high school would be able to sucessfully handle the EMS world, just as in the millitary, you willl have some that can not and due to its harsh extreme views of life, could suffer post traumatic stress syndrome that can not be, or will take a great amount of time, to overcome.

Just my .02


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## zvi-emt (Feb 26, 2007)

*youth*

There are definite advantages to having teen EMT's, With so many volunteer companies in my home area (NJ) having problems with recruitment and some even needing to shut down, it would help to train some younger people on the chance that some stick around long term.  Also, if they are certified, then they should be allowed to practice, Rid, do you support making the minimum age for certification 18, or 21?  interested to get your opinion on this.


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## BossyCow (Feb 26, 2007)

I think 18 has to be the minimum.  There are legal issues at stake that require legal adulthood.  The ability to sign a contract and be legally responsible for yourself. 

Now, aside from legal adulthood there needs to be a consideration given for the emotional maturity of the individual.  This can only be done through the interview process by each agency at the time of hire.  All 18 year olds think they are more mature than the average Joe and are convinced that they are able to handle anything and everything.  Some are, some aren't.


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## gradygirl (Feb 26, 2007)

Funny this should come up. I know people from the Darien ambulance service. 

Here's the biggest issue with many young EMTs: they think that just because they have had more time in the service, they are more mature and have more seniority over you. Sorry, bub, but I really don't care how much more experience you have, unless you act the part, I'm not giving you any more respect than a new EMT at the same age. In fact, if you're not going to act up to the age that you portray yourself at, I'm probably going to give you crap left and right because you're creating a gross double standard.

Look, I'm young, 19 years old. But I act like a 23 year old. In fact, I am constantly stared at in disbelief when I reveal my age. And, though I am a relavtively new EMT, people respect me because I know and do my job well, but also because present myself in a very mature manner...always.


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## firecoins (Feb 26, 2007)

I started riding at 16 years old. While I agree I certainly wasn't very mature I was very into it.  I became an EMT at 18 while in high school. I was an EMT 4 months before I had a high school diploma.

I once took a 2nd rig call at my school.  It was a volunteer corp that only staffed a first rig.  An ambulance was called for a fight where someone got part of an earlobe bit off.  I was unaware of the call but a police offcier I knew asked me for directions to the nurse's office. I took her there, helped the medic bring his stuff in and just found myself on the call.


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## PertinentNegative (Feb 26, 2007)

Ridryder911 said:


> ...but patient care should be handled by those of legal age.
> 
> R/r 911



Age, unfortunately, is not the best indicator if ability or responsibily.  It would be great for public health and safety if we instantly became better at operating personal vehicles at 18 or drinking alcohol responsibly the day we hit 21, but this is not the case; proper experience is always necessary.

It is absolutely correct that individuals must be both physically and mentally capable, as well as, emotionally mature to provide care for patients.  In today's society, where children are not as sheltered during childhood, many young adults mature at a younger age than they did a mere 30 years ago.  With proper screening and interviewing, it is possible to select and allow such individuals to actively participate in providing proper care to society, in addition to being positive role models for their peers.

The cadet program I was a part of in my home town consisted of the most intelligent, athletic, and reputable teenagers available.  We now go to school at places such as Yale, Johns Hopkins, and USMA.
Perhaps, two years are not enough to forget how capable *some* high school students are.


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## Flight-LP (Feb 26, 2007)

Personally, I think it was well reported................

I have mixed beliefs about minors being present on a 911 ambulance, but one aspect I certainly wouldn't condone is allowing them to drive. Most minors under 18 shouldn't drive a Yugo, much less an ambulance. The amount that this service is spending on insurance premiums alone could probably allow for fulltime staffing, if not a Paramedic. While my opinion is probably biased due to my locale offering a Paramedic on every truck staffed 24/7 with an above average response time, having minors who sat through a 120 hour advanced first aid training class and then being allowed to operate as the local 911 service is a lawsuit waiting to happen.............An intersting idea, but one that really isn't optimal in any environment. 

Just my humble opinion.................


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## FF/EMT Sam (Feb 26, 2007)

Flight-LP said:


> While my opinion is probably biased due to my locale offering a Paramedic on every truck staffed 24/7 with an above average response time, having minors who sat through a 120 hour advanced first aid training class and then being allowed to operate as the local 911 service is a lawsuit waiting to happen........



That's all well and good in Houston, Texas, but many rural communities like mine depend on teenagers and 20-somethings to get the truck out the door.  There are certaintly plenty of teens who don't belong on an ambulance, but blanket generalizations about us are outrageously unfair.  The best measure of an EMT or Paramedic's fitness for the job is how they perform.  As long as they're mentally and physically able to provide care to the best of their training level, they should be able to run.


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## Ridryder911 (Feb 27, 2007)

It might be unfair, but statistically over all research has shown and as well teenagers have demonstrated that they are unable to operate emergency vehicles in a safe operating manner. That is why a vast majority does not insure those under age 21. 

As well from one who started as a medic when I was 16, I can assure you maturity and is different for most teenagers as well as continuous exposure of traumatic and psychological events. Thus part of the problem of whom can handle it or not. Does your department send those teenagers to psychologist to be sure they are capable to handle such events and stress? The reason adult(s) is presumed to be able to, is because of past life events that comes with maturity. Even then I still recommend screening on adults as well. We will see more and more PTSD from our youth in wars and conflicts.

As well, life experiences makes one understand a broader picture. Sorry, I don't buy into the "no one will do it, but us".  You have LEO, fire fighters, city water, county road grader operators ? Then you could have paid EMT's/ 

R/r 911


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## ResTech (Feb 27, 2007)

StevO... awesome point!


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## Flight-LP (Feb 27, 2007)

FF/EMT Sam said:


> That's all well and good in Houston, Texas, but many rural communities like mine depend on teenagers and 20-somethings to get the truck out the door.



Well they shouldn't! And only a public outcry or vote will ever change it!

I have worked in some very remote rural environments as a paid Paramedic. I'm sorry but in most cases the "we can't afford to pay our people or pay a Paramedic" is B.S. As Rid recently stated (and I have echoed on many occasions), you pay for water, electricity, your trash services, why not have to pay for EMS? Does your trash collector work for free? Unless he's doing community service probably not. I see this trend occuring more on the east coast where there is a high percentage of volunteer companies. There also seems to be a mindset that since people will volunteer their time, there is no need for a paid person, EMT or Paramedic. And while I do take my hat off to volunteers, in todays age and increase in need of professional pre-hospital emergency care, there is a proven need for additional full-time personnel. Most people cannot volunteer full-time, thus the issue. Until these archaic views are withdrawn from the picture, then there will always be a sub-optimal level of care in some areas, thus reducing any chance this industry ever has to establishing itself as medical professionals (this along with the crappy training we currently call our "EMS Education"). It can be done. It needs to be done. Convincing people that EMS is an evolving industry is the difficult part. Too many people set in their old ways..............

Again, just my humble opinion, perceive it as you deem necessary...........


I leave you with two questions......

1. If a child cannot make decisions regarding his/her own health and the care of, then should we allow them to make the decisions concerning someone else's?

2. Should a minor EMT make a decision that ultimately has a bad outcome, who will be held liable and responsible? A 16 y/o kid? Not likely in most courts..............


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## FF/EMT Sam (Feb 27, 2007)

Flight-LP said:


> I'm sorry but in most cases the "we can't afford to pay our people or pay a Paramedic" is B.S.



My county has what I consider to be the best mix of volunteer and paid systems.  M-F, 6AM-6PM, selected stations are staffed with an ALS crew.  During "off hours," i.e. M-F, 6PM-6AM and weekends, we have a paid paramedic for the county (its a very small county) to assist volunteer BLS or ALS crews as needed.  We can even request off duty paid ALS providers in the case of an urgent emergency.  This system preserves the volunteer system and saves the county money, while ensuring that adequate medical crews are just a phone call away, 24-7.



Flight-LP said:


> 1. If a child cannot make decisions regarding his/her own health and the care of, then should we allow them to make the decisions concerning someone else's?



Funny that you should mention that, as we're going through quite a flap about kids making their own medical decisions in Virginia.  See here for a summary of a law that Governor Kaine is expected to sign.



Flight-LP said:


> 2. Should a minor EMT make a decision that ultimately has a bad outcome, who will be held liable and responsible? A 16 y/o kid? Not likely in most courts..............



When I was running as an EMT before I turned 18, I could do anything within my protocols regardless of whether or not an EMT over the age of 18 was present.  However, I could not serve as the official Attendant in Charge during a transport.  If I had made a decision resulting in a bad patient outcome, both the AIC and I would have been called onto the carpet for it, and if it was proven that it was solely responsible for the error, I would have suffered the consequences.


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## mrdell4150 (Feb 27, 2007)

I do not think that high schoolers should be running the ems service in any town, but I do believe that any teenage/whatever age emt/medic, etc are entitled to an ubiased opinion until proven otherwords. Some can handle the situations and some cannot, but no one should categorize people like that ( I am one of them being 17 and in the squad). Most of the people have given me full respect, doing what I am allowed to do well and to the best of my ability. Others are not so open, and think that all cadets are useless and disinterested. If we weren't interested we wouldn't be there. I do agree that some are unfit for the job, but they need to be given a chance to prove themselves free of any previous prejudices and stereotypes one may have.


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## BossyCow (Mar 1, 2007)

mrdell4150 said:


> they need to be given a chance to prove themselves free of any previous prejudices and stereotypes one may have.



At who's expense? The patient? The Supervisor? The cost of liability insurance for all of us?


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## Ridryder911 (Mar 1, 2007)

My opinion is unbiased. I realize not all teenagers are created equal. As I stated, I started at age 14 in ER and EMS when I was 16 so I am quite aware of the differences now that I have a 17 year old daughter. 

Unfortunately, the majority (not all or specific individual) make up are not able to make rationale and substantial crucial decisions. The same reason they are widely used in military as front line and to follow orders as directed. They are more at a task phase of life. This has been studied to death by impartial agencies such as insurance companies, educators, psychologist, etc..

Yes, some are exceptional and fortunately those usually pursue upwards and excel, while many others it takes time for maturity and development of the brain to be able to make rationale decision to occur.... sometimes many never do. Last year or so, they announced research describing the brain development after the age of 21-23 as being the "prime time" to understand complex and stressful events. 

I applaud those that have interest in EMS and yes we elders in EMS should guide and be mentors for those by ensuring they will receive the proper education and have an outstanding profession, when they do enter EMS at the appropriate age. 

R/r 911


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## Jon (Mar 1, 2007)

First - Stevo - great post!

I started as an explorer at 14, and rode my first ambulance call when I was barely 16 years old. I am ALL FOR minors on ambulances, with SUPERVISION. Supervision, per the state, for a minor EMT, is supposed to be a "responsible" member of the service, at least 21 y/o, "within arm's reach" of the EMT (I was loose on my own on a few nasty MVA's at 16 and 17... my preceptors must have had REAL long arms). These rules may, or may not actually be rules vs. guidelines... but I think they are good practice for most situations. If I am the "Primary" EMT (Crew Chief) and a "secondary" EMT (not fully precepted... may, or may not, be 18 y/o) screws up... its MY fault. I'm the one who is in charge of the scene (medical-wise), absent a cheif officer from the squad or a medic... MY name is on the chart as being in charge. I've had some secondarys that I would trust and not really need to watch, but I've got to watch many of them and help them along.

I think that providing youth a constructive, productive outlet for their energy is a GREAT thing... it sure beats them hanging around on the street corner, waiting to shoot one another.


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## Glorified (Mar 2, 2007)

Good for them.  I didn't get interested in EMS until 2006, and I 'm 18 and will be 19 when God willing I pass the test.  Maturity really depends on the individual.


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## FF/EMT Sam (Mar 2, 2007)

BossyCow said:


> At who's expense? The patient? The Supervisor? The cost of liability insurance for all of us?



It doesn't have to be at anyone's expense.  If they're going to be supervised by an AIC, the AIC can keep an eye on them.  If they're going to be the AIC themsekves, then the station will undoubtably supervise them until they're sure that they can do the job, just as they would keep an eye on a new EMT was was 40.


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## Jon (Mar 2, 2007)

FF/EMT Sam said:


> It doesn't have to be at anyone's expense.  If they're going to be supervised by an AIC, the AIC can keep an eye on them.  If they're going to be the AIC themsekves, then the station will undoubtably supervise them until they're sure that they can do the job, just as they would keep an eye on a new EMT was was 40.


Amen!

one of the things that young EMT's have against them is that they are NEW. If they aren't allowed to get their EMT until they are 18, or 21...then more years of experience are lost.


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## BossyCow (Mar 2, 2007)

We'll just have to agree to disagree.


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## Emtgirl21 (Mar 6, 2007)

I was 21 when i started in EMS. I worked for a private service and was trained by an EMT who was 18. Her parents owned the company and so she got her NREMT just days after she turned 18. She was not allowed to drive but did do alot of pt care. She is now about to turn 20. I've worked at two services since then one PRN and now a ALS service full time. I have to say she is a DAMN GOOD EMT. I have seen her give pt reports that have turned doctors heads. She has pictued up on AMI without ever looking at a 12 lead. She could do bls and some als care on me ANYDAY. She could hold her own with many "senior emts". She is just good at what she does.

I dont know how i feel bout the younger ones running code. I mean running emergency is a BIG responsibiliy, but i guess so is patient care. 

I know this topic has somewhat been beat to death. Now would i want an 18 yr old paramedic.....i dont know. But kudo's to them if they can pass national reg at 18!!!


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## chico.medic (Mar 25, 2007)

wolfwyndd said:


> Why can't a teen provide patient care?  As long as their are a certified EMT, what does it matter of they are 16 or 66?



I'll tell you why.  I was in Medic School when I was 19.  I turned 20 the day of our final exam.  I was 20 during my internship, and had been involved in EMS for about 2 years at that point. (Explorer and EMT-B.)  

I think Rid would agree with me on this, but it takes a certain degree of life experience to be an effective public servant.:excl:   Sure I could push atropine for bradycardia, and I could nasally intubate a respiratory pt. who was in failure, but How the hell was I suppose to persuade a WWII Vet that he needs to go to the hospital for his STEMI when he continually refuses care.  How do I tell a mother that her child is still born?  I had to do a lot of growing up real fast, and dealing with people is a huge part of this job.  It's not enough to be a competent provider.  You have to be a proverbial used car salesman too!  You have to be compassionate, and persuasive, and comforting.  How is a 16 year old going to calm someone’s anxiety after they just were pulled from the same vehicle that their spouse was just crushed beneath after being ejected.  How is a 16 year old going to console someone when they ask, "Why not me? Why did it have to be my son/daughter/mother/husband?"  

I struggled for quite awhile with my lack of life experience, and you know who suffered in the end?  My patient’s!  :unsure: 

How are you going to feel when it’s you having the big one, and the same kid that was working at ‘Joe’s Taco’s and fish bait’ last week is now telling you to hold still because he’s going to, “Stick this big *** needle into your arm, cuz’ it’ll help ya!” <_< 

I'm by no means trying to pass my self off as "all knowledgable".  I've got 2 years under my belt and I have a whole career ahead of me to learn more and hone my skills.  :blush:  I just think that if I did not start too early, then I was darn close to that mark.  Theres just somethings you have to wait to do until you grow up.  Driving, Drinking (not at the same time), and entering peoples homes and placing yourself in a position where your the only person those people have to rely on between their and the ED.


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## Chimpie (Mar 25, 2007)

Good post Chico.


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## FF/EMT Sam (Mar 25, 2007)

chico.medic said:


> How the hell was I suppose to persuade a WWII Vet that he needs to go to the hospital for his STEMI when he continually refuses care.  How do I tell a mother that her child is still born?  I had to do a lot of growing up real fast, and dealing with people is a huge part of this job.  It's not enough to be a competent provider.  You have to be a proverbial used car salesman too!  You have to be compassionate, and persuasive, and comforting.  How is a 16 year old going to calm someone’s anxiety after they just were pulled from the same vehicle that their spouse was just crushed beneath after being ejected.  How is a 16 year old going to console someone when they ask, "Why not me? Why did it have to be my son/daughter/mother/husband?"



How do any of us, regardless of age, do it?  Darn if I know, but we manage.  Some can manage it at a younger age than others can.


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## chico.medic (Mar 27, 2007)

I agree Sam, there are some very mature kids out there.  I believe anyone able to step it up and enter the profession at a young age is very mature.  I just think it's not a question of maturity, but interpersonal relations.  Maturity is simply having reached an advanced stage of mental or emotional development characteristic of an adult.  Mannerisms if you will.  

I just think that regardless of maturity, a younger person is going to be a less effective provider, especially at an advanced level where they are expected not only to be a competent clinician, and diagnostician, but manage a scene and give confident direction to ancillary personnel.  They simply don't have the life experience to be an effective leader.  More than 50% of what we learn in school is obsolete only because no scenario in the field is going to be black and white.  We live in a world that is comprised of so many shades of gray, I sometimes wonder who left the xerox on.  It requires a certain advanced degree of critical thinking skills and common sense to make the majority of our calls successful.    

They will also have to deal w/ an age bias, or ageism, from their patients, the  families of those patients, and senior EMS, hospital, and fire personnel.  Theres a sort of unspoken expectation for these people to "prove themselves."  An elderly patient may be anxious to let someone 1/4 their age be responsible for their health and wellbeing.  

There are always exceptions, and I don't wish to imply that I believe it CAN NOT be done, but if it does/has, then I truly believe the occurrence is rare. Further more, to assume that a company run entirely by high school age persons is going to be successful is naive and absurd (But that is only my IMHO.)


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