# Oh man



## KempoEMT

Had a friend OD while she was with me.  went full unresponsive, no response to two trap squeezes and 1 sternum rub, on second she went to painful, and then verbal. and then A&O2 then 4.  was some scary stuff.  Im glad i've learned the skills I have, and am continuing to learn.  it showed me what can happen, and I definately will learn from this experience.


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## AJ Hidell

Dude, why you wanna go kill her buzz like that?  She ODd because she wanted LESS stimulation, not more.  Some friend you are.

I certainly wouldn't get in the habit of making that move.  It won't take long before you find someone who deeply resents it and dots your eye.


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## KempoEMT

AJ Hidell said:


> Dude, why you wanna go kill her buzz like that?  She ODd because she wanted LESS stimulation, not more.  Some friend you are.
> 
> I certainly wouldn't get in the habit of making that move.  It won't take long before you find someone who deeply resents it and dots your eye.



there are extenuating circumstances that i am not allowed to discuss, but she was not having a recreational trip


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## AJ Hidell

Ah, understood.  I just don't see a lot of medical or legal justification for physically assaulting someone simply because you don't want them to be unconscious, regardless of why they ODd.  If she was breathing, that's good enough.


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## fortsmithman

AJ Hidell said:


> Ah, understood.  I just don't see a lot of medical or legal justification for physically assaulting someone simply because you don't want them to be unconscious, regardless of why they ODd.  If she was breathing, that's good enough.


The OP did the right thing following your advice he would be the defendant in a civil proceeding brought on by his friends family.  The basis would be if the friend had died that a trained person did nothing while the person went unconscious and died.  As well as possible criinal prceedings.  AJ you as a former LEO should know that.


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## AJ Hidell

What exactly did he do that made any demonstrable difference in her outcome?  Wake her up?  Unconsciousness isn't a fatal condition.  It is only a symptom.  So long as she has intact ABCs, she is not going to die, unconscious or not.  Did he do anything for her ABCs?  No.  Did he need to do anything for her ABCs?  No.  Did he need to do anything about her unconsciousness?  No.  Did he accomplish anything of medical value by doing so?  No.

The first requirement for civil proceedings is a proof of damages.  Unless he forced her to OD, there is no liability.  And as a lay bystander, he has no duty to act.


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## daedalus

AJ, are you saying that attempting to determine an AVPU value on a friend is assault? I am just asking, because I am betting I am just missing a very valid point you are making (no sarcasm intended).

Original poster, I am not understanding your point in posting this thread. Especially due to the fact you claim you cannot discuss it.


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## Ms.Medic

Why were you even with a person who was  "ODing" in the first place ? And what skills did you use that helped her that your so glad you had, just curious ?

Someone going through a course like these should not be around someone who is using.....period. Oh, but of course, theres always a possibility it was "accidental".


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## AJ Hidell

daedalus said:


> AJ, are you saying that attempting to determine an AVPU value on a friend is assault? I am just asking, because I am betting I am just missing a very valid point you are making (no sarcasm intended).


Think about what you were taught (if anything, as most truly professional educators who stay current in their field stopped this technique years ago) about the sternal rub in school?  What is the purpose of it?  Now, with that purpose in mind, is there any medical indication for a good Samaritan to perform it?  And if not, can it be legally justified?  And if not, is that not assault (or whatever term your jurisdiction assigns to non-consensual bodily contact)?

Noxious stimulus is not a therapeutic modality.  It is a diagnostic assessment tool.  And anyone who doesn't clearly understand that shouldn't be performing it in the first place.

Did he call 911?  If not, then is that because he felt she didn't need medical attention?  And if he felt she didn't need medical attention, why was he attempting to render it?  Sorry, but this whole scenario just comes across as completely inappropriate on multiple levels.


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## Ms.Medic

AJ Hidell said:


> Sorry, but this whole scenario just comes across as completely inappropriate on multiple levels.



Yeah, ummm, what he said. 


I have to agree, saying he cant talk about it and then posting it on a website for the world to see ???

IMO, if he thought it was bad enough, shoulda called 911.


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## Airwaygoddess

I do believe the point here is that he was at the right place at the right time, and helping someone who was in need.......... respectfully submitted. -_-


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## KempoEMT

Airwaygoddess said:


> I do believe the point here is that he was at the right place at the right time, and helping someone who was in need.......... respectfully submitted. -_-



thank you airway. All I meant was right place right time.  I did not intend to start the firestorm that has occurred from my origional post.  I'm new to this field.  I can't discuss it because my pt/friend asked me not to discuss all that lead to the event. If I have upset someone I apologize.  I'm glad my friend is ok, that's what I was trying to convey; I obviously didn't portray that as well as I should.


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## amberdt03

KempoEMT said:


> thank you airway. All I meant was right place right time.  I did not intend to start the firestorm that has occurred from my origional post.  I'm new to this field.  I can't discuss it because my pt/friend asked me not to discuss all that lead to the event. If I have upset someone I apologize.  I'm glad my friend is ok, that's what I was trying to convey; I obviously didn't portray that as well as I should.



the bottom line is your friend is ok. i don't think that you upset anyone on this forum. they were just trying to help, although sometimes it might not seem like they are. what aj was saying was, if your friends abc's were still intact, there was no reason to due anything else other than monitor her. 

i'm sure everyone here is grateful that your friend is doing ok.


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## daedalus

AJ Hidell said:


> Think about what you were taught (if anything, as most truly professional educators who stay current in their field stopped this technique years ago) about the sternal rub in school?  What is the purpose of it?  Now, with that purpose in mind, is there any medical indication for a good Samaritan to perform it?  And if not, can it be legally justified?  And if not, is that not assault (or whatever term your jurisdiction assigns to non-consensual bodily contact)?
> 
> Noxious stimulus is not a therapeutic modality.  It is a diagnostic assessment tool.  And anyone who doesn't clearly understand that shouldn't be performing it in the first place.
> 
> Did he call 911?  If not, then is that because he felt she didn't need medical attention?  And if he felt she didn't need medical attention, why was he attempting to render it?  Sorry, but this whole scenario just comes across as completely inappropriate on multiple levels.


Clarified. I 100 % agree.


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## daedalus

KempoEMT said:


> thank you airway. All I meant was right place right time.  I did not intend to start the firestorm that has occurred from my origional post.  I'm new to this field.  I can't discuss it because my pt/friend asked me not to discuss all that lead to the event. If I have upset someone I apologize.  I'm glad my friend is ok, that's what I was trying to convey; I obviously didn't portray that as well as I should.



You do not get it, do you? You did nothing to help. You did not change the outcome for your friend or apply any therapeutic technique that could have changed her outcome. You rubbed her chest and are calling it a rescue, when in fact, if you felt the need to assess her mental status, you should have been seeking real medical attention for her.


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## curt

Isn't there a slightly less awkward way to test responsiveness to a painful level, such as squeezing someone's fingertip superiorly and inferiorly between your thumb and index finger?


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## KempoEMT

daedalus said:


> You do not get it, do you? You did nothing to help. You did not change the outcome for your friend or apply any therapeutic technique that could have changed her outcome. You rubbed her chest and are calling it a rescue, when in fact, if you felt the need to assess her mental status, you should have been seeking real medical attention for her.




A. I never said I rescued. 
B. I was about to seek medical attention when she came around
C. She had a dr. Appointment I was taking her to anyway


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## amberdt03

KempoEMT said:


> A. I never said I rescued.
> B. I was about to seek medical attention when she came around
> C. She had a dr. Appointment I was taking her to anyway



just let it go. its not worth arguing about. some people tend to over react


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## Ms.Medic

KempoEMT said:


> A. I never said I rescued.
> B. I was about to seek medical attention when she came around
> C. She had a dr. Appointment I was taking her to anyway



Then what exactly is your post "OH MAN" about, just the fact that you had a friend get sick but now she's okay ???  Cause I remember you stating that you were glad you knew how to do the skills you learned,,,what skills exactly, were you talking about ? I was under the impression that you did something that you learned that helped her, isnt that what you posted ? Thats what we were talking about. (well some)


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## AJ Hidell

KempoEMT said:


> I did not intend to start the firestorm that has occurred from my origional post.  I'm new to this field.  I can't discuss it because my pt/friend asked me not to discuss all that lead to the event. If I have upset someone I apologize.  I'm glad my friend is ok, that's what I was trying to convey; I obviously didn't portray that as well as I should.


No worries, Bro.  I'm certainly not upset.  I respect the confidentiality that you need to maintain in this situation.  And I'm glad that she's going to be fine.  I just didn't want you walking away from the scenario believing that you had done something of benefit for your friend by rousing her from her unconsciousness.  One of the hardest concepts for EMS n00bs to understand is that you don't always have to "do something".  One of the weaknesses of EMT education is that it is so skills-based that the EMT is left with the impression that there is always some "skill" s/he must be performing on every patient.  What results is what we see here, which is people doing things just to be doing things, without really understanding what they are doing or why.

I understand that you are still learning.  As Amber indicated, I'm just trying to contribute to that process.  No harm done.  Just think it through and take the lesson from it for the future.


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## FutureParamedic609

I just have to ask, what is OD stand for/mean? 

Please excuse me, I'm just wanting to know acronyms, etc. since I can't be an EMT yet. Just future references


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## Shishkabob

Overdose.









10char


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## Shishkabob

AJ Hidell said:


> And if not, can it be legally justified?  And if not, is that not assault (or whatever term your jurisdiction assigns to non-consensual bodily contact)?





Now, correct me if I'm wrong... but you're from Texas.

Texas has implied consent.

Implied consent means if a pt is unconscious/unresponsive/ not in the decision making frame of mind, EMS can do what it has to do to correct the situation.



How is determining AVPU, from an MFR, assault in any way?


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## 8jimi8

i just have to say. it sounds like the story changed right in the middle of the post.

a. no one knows your friend
b. why can't you post the details then, it would never get back to her without identifying information?
c.  no one really knows you, so its almost double blind.
d. if you just want us to drop it, then stop posting in this thread.
e. if you didn't want us to ask questions about it then why did you bring it up in the first place?
f. i have to agree with Ms.Medic, you really sensationalized your role in this whole epic.
g. i don't really care that much, but it kind of makes you look bad to be hanging out with people who are od'ing. so if you want to save face then explain the situation.


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## amberdt03

Linuss said:


> Now, correct me if I'm wrong... but you're from Texas.
> 
> Texas has implied consent.
> 
> Implied consent means if a pt is unconscious/unresponsive/ not in the decision making frame of mind, *EMS can do what it has to do to correct the situation.*
> 
> 
> 
> How is *determining AVPU*, from an MFR, assault in any way?




determining an AVPU is not going to correct the situation. What AJ was saying was there was no need to do a sternal rub. That is not going to cure anyone. All that needed to be done is to make sure her airway was intact, and it didn't seem like there was any problems with her airway. so with that being said, if he was truly worried, he should have called 911 and just monitored her ABCs until she woke up, or help arrived.


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## Sasha

> How is determining AVPU, from an MFR, assault in any way?



How does determining AVPU correct the situation? When you teach CPR you don't teach them to do a sternal rub, you teach them to shake the patient "HEY HEY! ARE YOU OKAY?" because for a lay person, and he was functioning as a lay person, all you need to know is the person isn't waking up when you shout at them.

And even EMTs don't sit there and keep testing for response to painful stimuli. He tested for it FOUR times. Two trap squeezes, which I have no idea what that is, and two sternal rubs. Why? Did he dose her with Narcan or soemthing between, or just sit around wondering if he did it right?

My guess is if a sternal rub woke her up and solved the problem, she wasn't really OD'd.


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## Shishkabob

I totally agree that the amount of test was excessive, but that's not what is being argued.  What's being argued is that even a SINGLE AVPU test would constitute as assault/battery, and I am pretty sure not a single DA in this country would prosecute.


True, doing an AVPU test would not cure someone, but it would help determine the seriousness of their condition.  

After he stated that he did 1 AVPU test with no response, he should have been on the phone.







PS-- I'm with Sasha, I don't know what a trap squeeze is.  I'm guessing he was copping a feel.  =P


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## AJ Hidell

Linuss said:


> PS-- I'm with Sasha, I don't know what a trap squeeze is.  I'm guessing he was copping a feel.  =P


Trap = Trapezius muscle.  The Spock move.

For an MFR, AVPU is nothing more than something to put into your report to the hospital.  He wasn't reporting to the hospital.  I am waiting to hear exactly what he was doing.  No technique can be justified by, "it's just what we always do".  You need to be able to articulate exactly what the purpose of the technique was, and how it was beneficial to the patient.  Otherwise, you're just assaulting them.

An unconscious patient gives "implied consent" for medical attention.  You'd be very hard pressed to justify a sternal rub or trap squeeze as medical attention, coming from a MFR who was acting out of his scope.


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## 8jimi8

It is very painful.  I have had it performed on me during EMS Scenario Training, where I was acting as an unresponsive diabetic.  I used it to assess responsiveness on a woman from whom we had withdrawn life support.  She actually opened her eyes.  *Now, I was not being cruel, She was unresponsive to a sternal rub and I was actually doing a clinical assessment*


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## emtfarva

i like the pen pressed to the nail bed. it doen't leave a mark either


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## Hockey

Thank you Nomo


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## AJ Hidell

Show me an EMT school that is teaching the sternal rub or nailbed pressure as legitimate medical techniques, and I'll show you a school that sucks.  It's really sad how lost in the 1970s so many instructors are.  No wonder no other profession takes us seriously.


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## 8jimi8

I was in the ICU the other day and freaking neurologists were going CRAZY trying to make this woman localize / withdraw pain.  One was using a pen to CRUSH her fingers and the other one was using the handle of a metal reflex hammer.

Poor lady was just having a hard time waking up from propofol / (?  i can't remember the other pain med she was on - on her PCA)  and had developed a suspicious "lack of moving her upper extremities" after having a spinal fusion from T2 to S1

poor lady we turned off the propofol for like 40 minutes and as soon as she started coming to she starting biting / bucking the vent and trying to reach up to extubate herself.  Poor thing had such a sensitive gag reflex she kept puking everytime she got even moderately close to conscious.


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## fortsmithman

AJ Hidell said:


> Show me an EMT school that is teaching the sternal rub or nailbed pressure as legitimate medical techniques, and I'll show you a school that sucks.  It's really sad how lost in the 1970s so many instructors are.  No wonder no other profession takes us seriously.



Here in Canada we are trying to get all EMS programs accredited by the Canadian Medical Association.  Maybe it's time that the American Medical Association starts to accredit EMS courses in the USA.  If that were to happen then maybe EMS would be treated more seriously.


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## AJ Hidell

It's happening.  CAAHEP has taken the task of accreditation of paramedic schools, as they have been doing for other healthcare disciplines for years.  They are endorsed by the EMS physicians in that mission, so it has credibility.  Unfortunately, all the fly-by-night tech schools are whining and crying foul about the process, as it threatens the gravy train they have been on for the last thirty years.  But in the next couple of years, they will either have to get their programs in line or die.


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## nomofica

Hockey9019 said:


> Thank you Nomo





You're very welcome.


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## traumateam1

AJ Hidell said:


> Show me an EMT school that is teaching the sternal rub or *nailbed pressure as legitimate medical techniques*, and I'll show you a school that sucks.  It's really sad how lost in the 1970s so many instructors are.  No wonder no other profession takes us seriously.



That is one of the first things we are to do. First verbal and if no response then we are to do the trap squeeze or nailbed pressure.
However we never do sternal rubs.. that's just asking for trouble in my books... well so it hacking off an arm with an axe


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## ClarkKent

Ok I know that I am new and all, but thought that you have to find out if the is just unconscious (sleeping) unresponsive (just got knocked out) by using pain to determine if medical help is even considered necessary.  I understand that the sternal rubs is not used (I have only been told to use that on newborns) but the trap squeeze and the nail bed pinch is being used in my class.  

What I am trying to get it is if, you are off duty, in street clothing, walking home, and you see a person that unconscious next to a step going into a building, all that I can do is check his ABC’s and call 911.  I thought that you would have done your AVPU to make sure he was not just taking a nap.

Sorry if I am looking into this topic to much, but I want to make sure I fully understand where this is going?


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## traumateam1

ClarkKent said:


> Ok I know that I am new and all, but thought that you have to find out if the is just unconscious (sleeping) unresponsive (just got knocked out) by using pain to determine if medical help is even considered necessary.  I understand that the sternal rubs is not used (I have only been told to use that on newborns) but the trap squeeze and the nail bed pinch is being used in my class.
> 
> What I am trying to get it is if, you are off duty, in street clothing, walking home, and you see a person that unconscious next to a step going into a building, all that I can do is check his ABC’s and call 911.  I thought that you would have done your AVPU to make sure he was not just taking a nap.
> 
> Sorry if I am looking into this topic to much, but I want to make sure I fully understand where this is going?



Your not looking into it to much, the issue (with this scenario anyways) isn't about doing an AVPU check.. rather how the AVPU check was done. The OP used a sternal rub, which isn't used by EMS and definitely not by the lay person. If you approach an unresponsive person as a lay rescuer you should be on the phone with 9-11 dispatch, as you can always cancel them if needed. Gently kick their feet while yelling HEY HEY, ARE YOU OKAY??? (don't do this if their is an MOI suggestive of trauma.. as you want them to lay as still as possible). Then you go from their reaction. If they don't do anything than maybe try a painful stimuli (trap, nailbed) and then continue on with ABCs.

The reason I'd gently kick the soles of their feet is because I don't wanna have my face down near them when they wake up and first instinct is to clock you a good one.


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## Hockey

We're not supposed to use sternum rubs?

Oh?


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## ClarkKent

From that I have been reading by AJ is if you do more than just checking the ABC in this situation would be assaulting the pt even when the pt is unconscious/unresponsive.  I was just making sure I understood what he was trying to get across and not misreading it.  But if an EMT at any level uses a sternum rubs can be an assault on the pt??

I am lost, what is an “OP” or a “MRF” stand for?


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## EMTCop86

Hockey9019 said:


> We're not supposed to use sternum rubs?
> 
> Oh?


 
Nope, it's barbaric. Use the trap squeeze.


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## EMTCop86

ClarkKent said:


> I am lost, what is an “OP” or a “MRF” stand for?


 
OP= Original Poster (the one who started the thread)

MFR, not MRF= Medical First Responder


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## traumateam1

ClarkKent said:


> From that I have been reading by AJ is if you do more than just checking the ABC in this situation would be assaulting the pt even when the pt is unconscious/unresponsive.  I was just making sure I understood what he was trying to get across and not misreading it. * But if an EMT at any level uses a sternum rubs can be an assault on the pt??*
> 
> I am lost, what is an “OP” or a “MRF” stand for?



I don't know if it's assualt.. I guess it comes down to your county/area or whatever. It's just an unnecessary procedure, especially a male doing this on a female. There are better procedures you can use to assess AVPU. Such as the trap squeeze or nailbed pressure.

OP: Original Poster
MFR: Medical First Responder


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## ClarkKent

Now I am getting it, thank you traumateam1.  You are very true, if a male MFR (see I am learing new things) does a sternum rubs, it could look sexual to a friend of the pt and then you are $^%*.  Now I understand why it is not longer used.  Thank you for opening my eyes to what I was blind to.


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## Hockey

Tarp squeeze?


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## ClarkKent

Hockey9019 said:


> Tarp squeeze?



Trap = Trapezius muscle. The Spock move
(posted by AJ)


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## EMTCop86

Hockey9019 said:


> Tarp squeeze?


 
Grasp the trapezius muscle in between your thumb and index and middle fingers and then squeeze and twist.


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## amberdt03

EMTCop86 said:


> Grasp the trapezius muscle in between your thumb and index and middle fingers and then squeeze and twist.



hurts like h*ll


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## Shishkabob

The heck AJ?  Not using sternum rub / nailbed?

Sorry, but I was taught 3 different moves to elicit a response during the pain portion; sternum rub, nail bed, and trap muscle. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean the school is a bad school, especially considering it's one of the best here in Texas.

And on top of that, protocols > your views anyday.  If my protocols allow me to do something, I couldn't care less what you think is barbaric.  I'm doing what I have to do.


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## reaper

That's the way to debate!

Do I still use the Sternal rub? Yes! I also use nail beds, traps, and ear lobes. It is what ever I get a response to and can access. Not all Pt's respond the same. I have seen Pt's that have no response to the nail bed or traps, it does not bother them at all.

Sternal rub is only barbaric when used improperly. We could all say that compressions are barbaric, but still useful.

As I said, every pt is different. Use what works for that pt!


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## Sasha

Linuss said:


> The heck AJ?  Not using sternum rub / nailbed?
> 
> Sorry, but I was taught 3 different moves to elicit a response during the pain portion; sternum rub, nail bed, and trap muscle. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean the school is a bad school, especially considering it's one of the best here in Texas.
> 
> And on top of that, protocols > your views anyday.  If my protocols allow me to do something, I couldn't care less what you think is barbaric.  I'm doing what I have to do.



He isn't saying don't check your response to pain, if you are the medical provider responding to the call. Don't check it if you're a bystander who came upon an unresponsive person. The most you're supposed to do is shake them around "HEY HEY! ARE YOU OKAY!?!?" not grinding your knuckle into their sternum.

You, personally, have no reason to asses their AVPU further than verbal, as a bystander. It can be viewed as battery by a friend or family member off on the side, and technically it is. Kempo flubbed up. It should have been a "Hey! Are you okay?" and call 911, not sit around pinching her arms and grinding his knuckles into her sternum. And if you MUST asses for pain, do it once. Not four times.


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## EMTCop86

Since we are on the topic of painful stimuli, I thought I would share this article with you. I found it very interesting.

http://www.emsresponder.com/print/EMS-Magazine/Beyond-the-Basics--Patient-Assessment/1$3685


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## AJ Hidell

Linuss said:


> Sorry, but I was taught 3 different moves to elicit a response during the pain portion; sternum rub, nail bed, and trap muscle. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean the school is a bad school, especially considering it's one of the best here in Texas.


Dude, you've been to a grand total of ONE EMT school in your short life.  How would you know whether it is one of "the best" or not?  Because they told you so?

Nail bed pressure is not central stimulation.  A competent GCS exam requires central stimulation for the motor assessment.  If you're using nailbed pressure, you aren't doing a competent assessment.  They didn't teach you supraorbital pressure?  They didn't teach you TMJ pressure?  They didn't bother to teach you two accepted methods of central stimulation, but they taught you one peripheral method, and one outdated central method that is banned in many organizations instead?  Clearly your "one of the best" school has some serious shortcomings.



> And on top of that, protocols > your views anyday.  If my protocols allow me to do something, I couldn't care less what you think is barbaric.  I'm doing what I have to do.


It is obvious that you're all about what you're "allowed to do" and couldn't care less about what you _should_ do.  There is a lot more to medical practice than the extremely abbreviated knowledge base you received in EMT school.  There's a big world of information out here that you -- and most of your instructors -- are wholly unaware of.  That's why EMS stays a good decade behind the rest of the medical world.  It takes that long to beat old bad habits out of the burnouts that are teaching EMT schools, and don't have any more education than you do in the first place.  If you would start doing a lot more listening than mouthing off here, you could acquire some of that knowledge for yourself and improve your practical competence.  But first you have to get past this annoying rookie mentality that your little blue patch means that you already know everything, and that your local protocol book is the Holy Grail of medicine.


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## Ridryder911

Another amazement is how immature in medicine medics can be. Anyone with any little experience and common sense realizes that one can inflect noxious stimulus without causing harm and as well recognize and better approved methods. No matter (protocol or not) one should recognize methods that is recognized to be in the best behalf. 

Does one administer the full D50w rapid IV because one can or does one administer D10w and obtaining the same results, without causing rebound, pain to the patient? Although, the protocol states to ....."administer D50w"..

Inexperience has not taught those that protocols are "suggestions" and guidelines. Any service worth anything should not have to have protocols describing on how to perform each step and procedure on all procedures. Such protocols are for those that the physician does not trust or realizes their poor medical education level. I have to admit, I had never heard of protocols of how to establish responsiveness. It has always been a given of having the understanding and knowledge of how to properly check and assess such. 

Just because it is stated or quoted does not make it right. Pinching or twisting the nipple is quoted in several texts; but would we ever suggest such? Why? Because it is inappropriate and not warranted alike sternal rub. 

Those that really know medicine; can establish their LOC by assessment of the neuro system. Does one really have to play in their game of <LOC? I much rather whisper into their ear that I medically know that they are awake and to stop such behavior. Amazing; I will see a drastic & improvement of change. Recognizing cornea reflexes, eye lid fluttering, arm drop test, etc.. that are non damaging are just effective. 

We need to stop and ask ourselves; what is the reason for performing any of the test or procedures? What or if any of the results changes our treatment and in the best interest for the patient. Remembering, the procedure(s) is for the patients sake not ours. 

I personally never cared for "cowboy medics". Those that will either go beyond or interpert the protocol to the letter to be able to do something not for the sake of the patient but rather for their own poor underinflated ego. 

Remember, even if you are following an approved protocol damage can occur. When this does; one can and maybe held accountable. This does not exempt one from such even if  " you were doing, what you have to do".

R/r 911


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## RDUNNE

My MFR Instructor was talking about checking responsiveness last night, and was very adamant about us using the sternum rub rather then anything else, and it created quite a heated debate in the class. Personally I think the trap squeeze is a much better method. (not that I'm in any place to make that decision.)


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## Chelle

AJ Hidell said:


> One of the hardest concepts for EMS n00bs to understand is that you don't always have to "do something".  One of the weaknesses of EMT education is that it is so skills-based that the EMT is left with the impression that there is always some "skill" s/he must be performing on every patient.  What results is what we see here, which is people doing things just to be doing things, without really understanding what they are doing or why.



Quotes like this are the reason I am here.  

Snatching the pebble from your hand.............................


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## Ridryder911

RDUNNE said:


> My MFR Instructor was talking about checking responsiveness last night, and was very adamant about us using the sternum rub rather then anything else, and it created quite a heated debate in the class. Personally I think the trap squeeze is a much better method. (not that I'm in any place to make that decision.)



Your instructor needs to return to school, invite them here to discuss if they don't agree. 

R/r 911


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## AJ Hidell

Chelle said:


> Quotes like this are the reason I am here.
> 
> Snatching the pebble from your hand.............................


And quotes like that are the reason I am here!  It took me over three decades, and making every mistake in the book to come to the level of enlightenment that I have attained.  If I can help one person get there just a little faster and easier than I did, it makes it all worth it.  Thanks!


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## Sasha

AJ Hidell said:


> And quotes like that are the reason I am here!  It took me over three decades, and making every mistake in the book to come to the level of enlightenment that I have attained.  If I can help one person get there just a little faster and easier than I did, it makes it all worth it.  Thanks!



Liar. You're here because you like the drama.


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## rescuepoppy

Not endorsing one method over the other when used correctly,and for the right reasons. one thing to keep in mind is the people like a former co-worker. Due to an injury several years ago even a friendly squeeze on hi right trap will render his hand a useless claw for three or four days afterward. So remeber and use caution as no method is completely without risks.


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## Chelle

Sasha said:


> Liar. You're here because you like the drama.



When I first glanced at this I thought you were talking to me.  

True. True.  B)


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## willbeflight

EMTCop86 said:


> Since we are on the topic of painful stimuli, I thought I would share this article with you. I found it very interesting.
> 
> http://www.emsresponder.com/print/EMS-Magazine/Beyond-the-Basics--Patient-Assessment/1$3685



Thanks for posting that article.  It was very informative!


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## nomofica

willbeflight said:


> Thanks for posting that article.  It was very informative!



I agree; I'm thinking of bringing this up to my instructor and sharing with the class.


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