# Removing seated victim from MVA



## SpongeDude (Mar 10, 2006)

Was on a call last week- "minor" MVA with pt complaining of slight neck and back pain... No need to rush- (I was observing) - Crew placed collar- manual CSpine and transferred to LSB (via sliding board under butt) -pivoting and placing on board- How many of you all do it this way- vs. using a KED or short board?


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## rescuecpt (Mar 10, 2006)

Protocol wise, the KED should be used in this situation.  That's what it was designed for.  Does that happen 99% of the time?  No.

If it was me in that car, if they don't use the KED I'd ask, and if they refuse, I'll refuse assistance and sit tight until my squad shows up.  LOL.

I already have a spine injury that is easily aggrevated and not something to screw around with.


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## TTLWHKR (Mar 10, 2006)

Protocol here says to KED all the victims, as indicated...

WTF!?!?!


Who carries more than *1* KED on their rig?

Suppose you have six victims? Are you going to call for a mass-cas response, just to avoid using short boards, etc.?


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## Stevo (Mar 10, 2006)

well we all know the worse they are, the worse they really get packaged right?

unless your into delivering a perfectly packaged corpse, it's the way it's always been....

~S~


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## SWVAEMT (Mar 11, 2006)

rescuecpt said:
			
		

> Protocol wise, the KED should be used in this situation.  That's what it was designed for.



Ditto

Unless the situation calls for rapid extrication, a KED or a short board should be used.


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## SWVAEMT (Mar 11, 2006)

TTLWHKR said:
			
		

> Protocol here says to KED all the victims, as indicated...
> 
> WTF!?!?!
> 
> ...




We have two on every ambulance in addition to the ones on the wagon, ladder, squad, etc that will be responding along with us.


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## SafetyPro2 (Mar 28, 2006)

We have a KED on both our ambulances. Of course, we only have one backboard on each too (though in a pinch, we also have a Miller board on each). If we have more than two PTs requiring C-spine, we'd probably be calling for additional ambulances anyway.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 28, 2006)

SafetyPro said:
			
		

> We have a KED on both our ambulances. Of course, we only have one backboard on each too (though in a pinch, we also have a Miller board on each). If we have more than two PTs requiring C-spine, we'd probably be calling for additional ambulances anyway.



Seem's like you should be carrying more backboards then that.  We carry 4 backboards, scoop stretcher, a KED, and a peds backboard on each one of our rigs.


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## TTLWHKR (Mar 28, 2006)

With three backboard compartments, a strecther, the bench, and two overhead hooks... Never hurts to carry a handfull of boards. We carry five plastic boards, two folding metal boards (for ceiling), two folding-wheeled stretchers, a scoop, a reeves sleeve, a breakaway flat, a KED, three short boards and two of these small blue pedi boards w/ like a dozen annoying straps and tiny head blocks.

The larger ambulances carry more b/c the vans can only carry 1 board. So, we never know when there will be the need.


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## Jon (Mar 28, 2006)

SafetyPro said:
			
		

> We have a KED on both our ambulances. Of course, we only have one backboard on each too (though in a pinch, we also have a Miller board on each). If we have more than two PTs requiring C-spine, we'd probably be calling for additional ambulances anyway.


Ummm..

At my squad, every truck has 2 LSB's, 1 KED, 1 Pedi-board, 1 scoop, 1 reeves.

2 LSB's is the minimum any rig should have.


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## MedicPrincess (Mar 28, 2006)

Have to agree with Jon on this one.  Each truck should have a min of 2 LSB's.  How many times do you have just 1 patient from an MVA?

By policy, our trucks all have a MINIMUM of 2 LSB's, 1 Pedi Board, 1 Scoop Stretcher, 1 Stair Chair, 1 short board, and 1 KED.

It is not uncommon to find 3-4 LSB's and 2 Pedis.  

The KED seems to be the device of last resort around here.  We do that LSB under the butt move.


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## emtbuff (Mar 28, 2006)

I agree about having a min of 2 LSB.  We however have about 3-4 LSB, 1 KED, 2 Peds Board, Scoop, 1 Stair Chair which can be used as a stretcher.


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## SafetyPro2 (Mar 28, 2006)

Doesn't make any sense to me to carry more than one backboard since we can only put one PT in each ambulance anyway. We run Type IIs. If we have more patients than our two ambulances can handle, we call for more ambulances from outside the department.

And, quite often, we DO only have one PT on our TCs. The majority of the ones we respond to are single vehicle, single occupant. I think the biggest one I've ever been on was two vehicles with three occupants, and we ended up having an AMR rig respond for the third PT.


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## emtd29 (Mar 28, 2006)

TTLWHKR said:
			
		

> Protocol here says to KED all the victims, as indicated...
> 
> WTF!?!?!
> 
> ...




My  Dept has 2 in each truck  plus 1 in the fly car for a total of 7


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## emtbass (Mar 28, 2006)

well i understand that the KED is the choice in this situation, but to tell you the truth I have NEVER used a KED, and have never seen one used except to stabilize a broken hip.


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## Jon (Mar 29, 2006)

emtbass said:
			
		

> well i understand that the KED is the choice in this situation, but to tell you the truth I have NEVER used a KED, and have never seen one used except to stabilize a broken hip.


I've got to agree with this...

BUT... as I'm hoping to become an EMT preceptor at my squad, I've been careful to "watch my act" - I do standing takedowns, rather than "walk over and sit on the LSB on the strecher."  I'm planning on working on the KED with my regular partners, in hopes of using it one day, just to show up everyone else...


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## emtbuff (Mar 29, 2006)

For us the reason why we have at least 2 backboards is most of our accidents seem to involve at least 2 people and we often times transport both pts in the same rig if we have 3 EMTS in the rig.  I can't even tell you how many times we have taken an ambulance full of patients.  Where there were a handful full of walking wounded and only a couple that needed to be backboarded.  And we have been the only rig available.  Hey when your a rural community you do what you have to.

As for the KED board we attempted to use it the other night but the patient was being very cooperative. with us.


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## squid (Apr 10, 2006)

This seems like a good thread in which to complain about KEDing.

MVA, other patient already removed, and that patient had no seat belt and had cracked the windshield. Not just starred, cracked.

This patient did not think she was seriously injured, had been ambulatory earlier, but unclear whether she was sober, or had been wearing a seat belt, and potential for serious injuries was there. It was below -15 C (0 F or so) and they had been there for about 40 minutes already since the accident.

The ambulance was not there yet but we had a rescue rig with a walk-in compartment that we sometimes keep patients in while waiting, since it's warm.

Would you have KEDded this patient, or pulled her out onto a long board and gotten her in the warm rig for treatment?


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## TTLWHKR (Apr 10, 2006)

yanno what we need?

Heated backboards...


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## BrandoEMT (Apr 16, 2006)

Ok, by what we've learned in class it says use the KED...if the pt isn't critical or evironmental concerns are not present let them sit and wait for you to take the time to use the KED.  Otherwise just do a rapid if you need to get going.  The medics may have done enough CMS tests and checked all extremities to determine whether or not to do full precautions.  The KED is hardly used, most of the time the First Responders will put the pts in it before the Ambulance arrives...

B


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## Ridryder911 (Apr 16, 2006)

We carry 2 LSB's, 2 KED's, 1 Scoop, 1 stair chair, 1 pediatric stretcher/car sea, per unit. Unless the patient is severely critical (in which most case they are flown out), we will transport 2 patients. One on LSB on the squad bench the other the stretcher.. No need tying up two units for simple MVC.

R/r 911


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## TTLWHKR (Apr 16, 2006)

We have KODE2's now.. Our KED's were shot to hell, so they replaced them, and gave us Kendrick Pediatric Spider Straps. Woo Hoo


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## Jon (Apr 17, 2006)

TTLWHKR said:
			
		

> We have KODE2's now.. Our KED's were shot to hell, so they replaced them, and gave us Kendrick Pediatric Spider Straps. Woo Hoo


The KODE 2 looks cool... what do you think?


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## emtI (Apr 17, 2006)

So what's the difference between a KED and a KODE?


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## Jon (Apr 18, 2006)

KODE - is Kendrick's Other Device for Extircation... he sold the patent to the KED and then made some small modifications, allowing him to make more money.

KODE II - New, Improved KODE.


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## TTLWHKR (Apr 18, 2006)

MedicStudentJon said:
			
		

> The KODE 2 looks cool... what do you think?


 
Don't know, haven't used it yet.


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## emtd29 (Apr 19, 2006)

never seen one...


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## TTLWHKR (Apr 20, 2006)

It's very colorful.


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## Jon (Apr 20, 2006)

http://www.buyemp.com/product/1050905.html


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## divinewind_007 (Apr 22, 2006)

we are required to have 2 LSB on all our units in tennesse. Starting this year we also are suppose to have 2 KED's on board and 2 tractions splints in stead of one.


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## Jon (Apr 23, 2006)

That seems silly... duplication of seldom-used equipment.

I DID like having a short board AND a K.E.D. - a short board is so much more than an extication device... CPR board, etc.


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## brentoli (Aug 7, 2006)

Sorry to bring back a dead thread. I just have one question though.

The majority of you say that if you are not rushed, to use a KED... My question is, if you are not rushed, then is the car accident bad enought here is a possiblity of head or neck injury?


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## emtbuff (Aug 8, 2006)

brentoli said:
			
		

> Sorry to bring back a dead thread. I just have one question though.
> 
> The majority of you say that if you are not rushed, to use a KED... My question is, if you are not rushed, then is the car accident bad enought here is a possiblity of head or neck injury?


 
Yes there is always the possibility for a head/neck injury with any type of a car accident.  When I'm think of not being rushed is that there is a long extrication time, the patient has a patent Airway and has good circulation and so forth.  I know those would be factors for putting it on.  And if the car isn't in bad shape but the patient is complaining of neck/head pain I would take the time to KED them also.


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