# FEMA Suspends Phoenix's Rescue Team Over Firearms



## Jon (Oct 6, 2005)

FEMA Suspends Phoenix's Rescue Team Over Firearms Rule

Updated: 10-05-2005 10:05:58 PM

_ASSOCIATED PRESS_


PHOENIX (AP) -- The Phoenix Fire Department's Urban Search and Rescue team has been suspended from a federal agency because it sent armed police officers to protect firefighters during the recent hurricanes in the Gulf Coast. 

At issue is a rule in the Federal Emergency Management Agency's Code of Conduct that prohibits Urban Search and Rescue teams from having firearms. 

Phoenix's team that deployed for Hurricane Katrina relief and again for Hurricane Rita included four police officers deputized as U.S. marshals. 

The team was credited with plucking more than 400 Hurricane Katrina survivors from rooftops and freeway overpasses in flooded sections of New Orleans. 

Phoenix officials now are threatening to refuse some of the most dangerous deployments in the future or possibly even pull out of the federal agency altogether, unless the rules are changed to allow teams to bring their own security, even if that means police with guns. 

Firehouse.com Story #1

FEMA Defends Suspension of Phoenix Team

Updated: 10-05-2005 10:03:46 PM

_BOB CHRISTIE
Associated Press Writer_

PHOENIX (AP) -- The Federal Emergency Management Agency is defending its suspension of a search and rescue team from the Phoenix Fire Department, saying the team knowingly violated rules that bar guns.

FEMA officials sent the 28-person Phoenix team home on Sept. 26 after members were seen getting on a helicopter with a loaded shotgun while working on Hurricane Rita relief efforts.

FEMA spokesman Butch Kinerney said Phoenix was the only one of 28 teams that was sent home.

The team was pulled ''after a series of judgment errors by team leaders which violated FEMA rules and which put that team, other teams, and the victims they were rescuing at unnecessary risk,'' Kinerney said in a written statement.

Four other teams were on standby when the Phoenix team was deactivated, so no victims were put at risk, Kinerney wrote.

The Phoenix team had deployed with four armed police officers who had been deputized as U.S. marshals.

The pullout ignited a firestorm Tuesday, with Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon calling the FEMA reaction ''stunning, unbelievable, bewildering and outrageous.''

The criticism of the federal agency continued Wednesday, with Arizona Gov. Janet Napolitano and U.S. Sen. Jon Kyl both taking on the issue.

Napolitano criticized FEMA's actions as unfathomable when asked about the situation during a news conference Wednesday.

''I don't understand the reason for it. I think our first responders need to be operating in a safe and secure area so they can focus on their work,'' Napolitano said. ''This is just one of those dumb bureaucratic decisions that FEMA is notorious for.''

Firehouse.com Article #2


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## Jon (Oct 6, 2005)

I saw LA County and Orange County's teams... both had brought what appeared to be "their own" sherrif's department guys wih them.... with AR15's...... and Shotgones....

Jon


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## DT4EMS (Oct 6, 2005)

What a friggin bunch of crap..............

Hey FEMA........

1) You don't want responders armed (Fine not a problem)

2) You don't belive that sending EMS workers into a hostile scene is a problem (Again a bunch of crap!)

3) BUT......when a City sends POLICE OFFICERS to protect it's teams (Which is what everyone is taught in EMS) you suspend them...........

Things had better change pretty quick. When FEMA people believe it is OK for unarmed, untrained EMS providers to get shot at while providing rescue efforts.................... :angry:


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## Wingnut (Oct 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by MedicStudentJon_@Oct 6 2005, 07:13 AM
> * ''This is just one of those dumb bureaucratic decisions that FEMA is notorious for.''
> *


  :lol:  :lol:  :lol: 

A perfect statement.

FEMA is really giving itself a terrible reputation. People are going to start pulling thier funding if they don't knock this crap off.


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## Jon (Oct 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by DT4EMS_@Oct 6 2005, 10:30 AM
> * 3) BUT......when a City sends POLICE OFFICERS to protect it's teams (Which is what everyone is taught in EMS) you suspend them...........
> 
> Things had better change pretty quick. When FEMA people believe it is OK for unarmed, untrained EMS providers to get shot at while providing rescue efforts.................... :angry: *


 I guess FEMA is saying that that is why the Army was there.

As I said, though, all the teams I saw had security of some form.... THe LAFD or LAcoFD (Don't know which one) team had several folks with them that appeared to be LAco Sherriffs.... they looked at me REALLY funny when I asked for directions to the superdome, after getting lost, and being unable to find a not-flooded exit from I-10   

So this is suprising..... perhaps the other "security" guys arrived seperatly and were assigned to each team, and perhaps Pheonix was brining its guys EVERYWHERE, as opposed to them provinding security for their supplies..... Who knows.

I do know that a local "ERT" team (Very rich township, cpntains my primary employer, and has their own tactical team) was down there doing door-to-door in the city in the week after Labor day..... in full SWAT gear..... they weren't in the really bad parts of town, and they didn't get shot at.... but they apparently helped clear some areas beofre the USAR guys got their act in gear and felt "safe"

(I know I'd feel pretty safe with 10 friends, all with AR15's and shotguns  )

Jon


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## basic2be (Oct 13, 2005)

Isn't the first rule of EMS after BSI,  Scene Safety?!?! If I get attacked/hurt while helping you I sure as heck won't be able to help anyone else! :mellow:


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## Jon (Oct 13, 2005)

Welcome.

Tell us a little about yourself!


Jon


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## SafetyPro2 (Oct 24, 2005)

I was quite ticked off when I found out about this situation, particulalrly since all the DMAT teams (at least all the ones I saw) were sent out with armed Federal Protective Service officers for "force protection". Our team, in fact, had 4 officers for the majority of our deployment, and they were very clearly armed...they carried the FN P90 submachine gun most of the time.

FPS is part of the Dept. of Homeland Security (which is also where FEMA sits) under Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). On the very front page of the FPS website, there's a list of services that FPS provides, including:

_"Providing Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) support."_

If FEMA doesn't want the US&R teams providing their own "security", then they should assign FPS personnel just like they did with us.

Just one word in FEMA's support though. This was the first time FPS assets were used in this capacity in DMAT, so it may be an issue of the left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing (since NDMS and US&R are different parts of FEMA), but its still a lesson to learn.


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## Luno (Oct 27, 2005)

Safety, I saw quite a few DMAT, and the FPS guys, but I didn't see any of the P90s, did see a few M-4s and MP5s.  Ran in to some of the guys from Seattle, well, Bremerton specifically running the clinic down by the small heli/evac strip across from Hall H.  Were you down there running around too?  It's kinda funny about FEMA and all, since now they're bringing us into the mix.     And no, it's not in a med role this time, this group has more of an anti-terrorism    and counter assault team experience.  Mississippi, here we come....  h34r:


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## Jon (Oct 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by SafetyPro_@Oct 24 2005, 12:32 PM
> * I was quite ticked off when I found out about this situation, particulalrly since all the DMAT teams (at least all the ones I saw) were sent out with armed Federal Protective Service officers for "force protection". Our team, in fact, had 4 officers for the majority of our deployment, and they were very clearly armed...they carried the FN P90 submachine gun most of the time. *


 Umm....

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the P90 is designed to shoot LOTS of bullets, really fast, right????

An M4, CAR15, M16 is a rifle, some models of which have a full-aut setting, right???

anyone want to go to the range???


Oh.... I've got a great thing in my email, I'll have to share... Gorge Carlin on New Orleans....

Jon


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## SafetyPro2 (Nov 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Luno_@Oct 26 2005, 10:10 PM
> * Safety, I saw quite a few DMAT, and the FPS guys, but I didn't see any of the P90s, did see a few M-4s and MP5s.  Ran in to some of the guys from Seattle, well, Bremerton specifically running the clinic down by the small heli/evac strip across from Hall H.  Were you down there running around too?  It's kinda funny about FEMA and all, since now they're bringing us into the mix.     And no, it's not in a med role this time, this group has more of an anti-terrorism    and counter assault team experience.  Mississippi, here we come....  h34r: *


 Yeah, I spent two weeks in Biloxi with DMAT CA-1...I'm one of the team's safety officers.

Our FPS guys were a little more concerned than some of the others because we had some security issues at our site (which I can't really discuss in detail, but involved some threats against some of our members). That's why we had four of them assigned to us...most teams (and ours originally) only had one.


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## Jon (Nov 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by SafetyPro+Nov 6 2005, 01:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (SafetyPro @ Nov 6 2005, 01:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Luno_@Oct 26 2005, 10:10 PM
> * Safety, I saw quite a few DMAT, and the FPS guys, but I didn't see any of the P90s, did see a few M-4s and MP5s. Ran in to some of the guys from Seattle, well, Bremerton specifically running the clinic down by the small heli/evac strip across from Hall H. Were you down there running around too? It's kinda funny about FEMA and all, since now they're bringing us into the mix.   And no, it's not in a med role this time, this group has more of an anti-terrorism  and counter assault team experience. Mississippi, here we come.... h34r: *


Yeah, I spent two weeks in Biloxi with DMAT CA-1...I'm one of the team's safety officers.[/b][/quote]
Really??? big suprise :lol:     :lol: 



> *Our FPS guys were a little more concerned than some of the others because we had some security issues at our site (which I can't really discuss in detail, but involved some threats against some of our members). That's why we had four of them assigned to us...most teams (and ours originally) only had one.*


  

That isn't good. Although it seems everything turned out OK.


JOn


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## Medic38572 (Nov 6, 2005)

Screw Fema they couldnt protect them. LOL I was offered a job for thirty days to go to new orleans. I accepted on one condition. When they asked I advised I would need 2000 rds of .308 extra ammo soft point. Thy said why and I told them I would be team sniper. They advised there was no way. I advised them there would be no way I went then as utter kaos was taking place and I refused to put myself in any position like that in order to help others.


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