# More Detroit EMS problems



## Shishkabob (May 1, 2011)

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/charlie_leduff/when-disaster-strikes-detroit-what's-the-plan


Apparently an EMS crew was under attack and one of the crew members was injured, and the crew asked for backup.  A supervisor continually denied sending support units / police, despite the repeated request until it was stated that there was an injury.  



No full information is available on this incident, but if I had a supervisor denying my request for help when I was under attack, I'd be getting his job.


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## LucidResq (May 1, 2011)

That's when you hit your emergency key and scream.


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## Anjel (May 1, 2011)

Absolutely ridiculous. 

If I need help. I better be getting it. Or I am not doing the job anymore. 

I'm curious as to what happened on scene. That supervisor needs to be fired.


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## DrParasite (May 1, 2011)

Linuss said:


> http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/charlie_leduff/when-disaster-strikes-detroit-what's-the-plan
> 
> 
> Apparently an EMS crew was under attack and one of the crew members was injured, and the crew asked for backup.  A supervisor continually denied sending support units / police, despite the repeated request until it was stated that there was an injury.
> ...


That wasn't what happened.  Listen to the tape and you will hear what happened.

Medic 15 requests assistance for combative EDP.  1 unit is sent (1104 immediately).  PD (known as Scout in Detroit I guess) is requested via EMS dispatch calling PD dispatch.  Supervisor/1105 states no additional units are to be sent.  Medic 15 req additional medic unit for injured MOS, and then Medic 23 is sent.  and Car 1103 is also sent (i'm guessing maybe a field supervisor?)  and within 3 minutes, additional help is on scene, PD and EMS.

Detroit has their problems, but this doesn't look like one of them.  The system worked as it was supposed to.  My agency has a policy that if a unit calls for help, nearest EMS unit, rescue and chief respond ONLY.  otherwise EVERY unit will divert to the scene, including those who have patients.  it's also a citywide request for help among the cops, so all available cops go.  Can't send every unit to the scene, because there are still other emergencies going on in the city.

1 unit to backup the crew who needs help.  and PD to secure the scene.  1 additional unit to treat the MOS.  and all help on scene in less than 3 minutes from the initial call for help.  Sounds like the system worked pretty well to me.


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## WolfmanHarris (May 1, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> Sounds like the system worked pretty well to me.



I don't disagree with you per se, but I do take issue with a system that micromanages to that extent. You should be able to trust your personnel to the point that you can trust that when they request a second unit, they have good reason to do so. By all means if the Sup has concerns they should ask for clarification, but don't stop the unit until you have all the information.


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## DrParasite (May 1, 2011)

WolfmanHarris said:


> I don't disagree with you per se, but I do take issue with a system that micromanages to that extent. You should be able to trust your personnel to the point that you can trust that when they request a second unit, they have good reason to do so. By all means if the Sup has concerns they should ask for clarification, but don't stop the unit until you have all the information.


But the second unit (1104) WAS sent.  and I have a hunch (this is only a hunch) that the policy does say only one unit and PD is sent, and the supervisor was just reminding dispatch of said policy.

I am guessing (again, just a guess) that he didn't want 4 or 5 additional units flying to the scene to assist the ambulance, when they only needed one additional ambulance (to help with initial patient) and PD to assist in the initial securing of the scene (restraining of the combative crazy person).


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## rescue99 (May 1, 2011)

Linuss said:


> http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/charlie_leduff/when-disaster-strikes-detroit-what's-the-plan
> 
> 
> Apparently an EMS crew was under attack and one of the crew members was injured, and the crew asked for backup.  A supervisor continually denied sending support units / police, despite the repeated request until it was stated that there was an injury.
> ...



Detroit EMS isn't exclusive to this kind of employee abuse in the Detroit area. I highly suspect it may be more common than anyone realizes and certainly not limited to Detroit. For instance; I watched/heard, not only dispatch, but also a key manager, refuse to protect EMT's in at least 2 seperate, but equally dangerous situations. In one, gun shots could clearly heard, as a terrified crew ducked for cover. The other was a flat out threat to fire a crew if they insisted on police involvement after a violent incident involving a knife and sexual assault. That was _after_ they were ordered to find their way out of the situation and report back to their supervisor. 

EMS is under constant threat, and not always by criminals.


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## WolfmanHarris (May 1, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> But the second unit (1104) WAS sent.  and I have a hunch (this is only a hunch) that the policy does say only one unit and PD is sent, and the supervisor was just reminding dispatch of said policy.
> 
> I am guessing (again, just a guess) that he didn't want 4 or 5 additional units flying to the scene to assist the ambulance, when they only needed one additional ambulance (to help with initial patient) and PD to assist in the initial securing of the scene (restraining of the combative crazy person).



Maybe I heard it wrong, but the impression I was left was that Dispatch was sending the second unit and the Supervisor was canceling it. Otherwise I don't disagree.


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## DrParasite (May 1, 2011)

unless I misunderstood what was said on the tape (and 1103, 1104 and 1105 are are all single person fly cars instead of 1104 being a two person BLS unit which is very possible), help was sent.   Plus, not for nothing, if you have a violent EDP who is kicking your *** and you can't retreat to safety, having PD on scene will probably help mitigate an emergency better than another ambulance crew.

one important thing for field units to say is WHY they needed help.  For example, I was working dispatched once and a field unit starts screaming "Send me hands, I need hands!!!!!"  We took that to mean they were in a life threatening emergency, so we send every available cop in the city, two supervisors, two ambulances (one ALS and one BLS), our heavy rescue, and I'm sure other units started heading over there without notifying dispatch.

What actually happened was their patient with a seizure history had started seizing as they were carrying him down the stairs. But based on the panicked request for assistance, we assumed the worst and looked like idiots in front of the PD for putting out an all call for a person who was seizing.

Just throwing that out there because sometimes when a crew needs helping, sending additional EMS units will just get the other EMS units in the same trouble, instead of sending LEOs to rectify the unsafe scene.


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## johnrsemt (May 2, 2011)

Another problem that is out there, everywhere;  is crews who call for help with out specifying what is wrong and what they need help with/for.
  We had a crew get on the radio, screaming for help:  and kept the radio keyed up until they got help:  they got 1 medic crew (2 people)  2 BLS crews (2 each), Fire unit  (5)  4 squad cars (2 each) and EMS supervisor from our private service, and EMS supervisor and Bat chief from Fire.  19 people responded due to not being specific that they needed 2 more people to help get a bed bound patient up 2 flights of stairs.

    Made all Private services look idiotic.


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