# British FF uses L&S, gets charged with manslaughter



## Foxbat (Mar 2, 2010)

http://www.firerescue1.com/fire-products/articles/766341-Firefighter-arrested-over-UK-farmers-siren-death/
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			Firefighter arrested over UK farmer's 'siren death' Elderly man was crushed when his own herd of cows stampeded last August
		
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> _By James Beal
> The Bridgwater Mercury
> _
> SOMERSET, England — The Mercury can today reveal a firefighter is facing a manslaughter probe over the death of a Sedgemoor farmer.
> ...


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## Dreadnought (Mar 2, 2010)

This is weighing the importance of one life over another, and the inarguable fact that hindsight is always 20/20.

It's ridiculous, if you ask me.


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## Aidey (Mar 3, 2010)

It seems like quite a stretch. The posted information doesn't give enough detail at all. At first it sounded like the cows were in a pasture near the road, then further down it sounds like the FF used to siren to scare them off the road. 

Either way, I'm not sure that the victim's death was a foreseeable event.


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## nomofica (Mar 3, 2010)

> After the tragedy, Mr Lee's son Andrew said *the family believed the accident might have been avoided had the fire crew waited until the cows were safely herded off the road before proceeding*.





> Harold Lee, of Robins Farm in Burtle, was crushed when his own herd of cows stampeded last August — *his family claimed the animals were spooked by the wailing sirens and flashing lights of a fire engine heading to an emergency.*


I have a few questions..

A ) what were the cows doing on the road? They have their place to be, and a road is not one of them.

B ) When I'm responding to a 9-11 emergency, I'm sorry (not really) but I'm going somewhere with L&S for a reason and I'm not going to wait for the cows. There is a reason why my lights and sirens are on, and it's not to wait for some cows to move with my thumb up my ***. 

Sorry (again, not really), but spooking some moo moos on my way to an emergency isn't a concern of mine, and it's not "negligent" to think so. 

In no way could the victim's death have been a foreseeable event, and in no way should the firefighter be held responsible let alone being charged with manslaughter. You're just looking for a scapegoat for a freak accident. It's unfortunate the man died, but sometimes :censored::censored::censored::censored: happens.

Buuuut, like previously mentioned, there's not enough detail in the article and, before I get nit-picked, none of us were there.


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## LondonMedic (Mar 3, 2010)

nomofica said:


> A ) what were the cows doing on the road? They have their place to be, and a road is not one of them.


It's not uncommon in rural UK to drive livestock across or down a road from one part of a farm to another.




> B ) When I'm responding to a 9-11 emergency, I'm sorry (not really) but I'm going somewhere with L&S for a reason and I'm not going to wait for the cows. There is a reason why my lights and sirens are on, and it's not to wait for some cows to move with my thumb up my ***.


What are you going to do? Hope that they will form an orderly queue on the side of the road? Hope that they will run faster if you turn the blues and twos on? Run them over? I suspect that in reality you would find yourself waiting, or reversing an unspecified distance up a narrow country lane. 




> Sorry (again, not really), but spooking some moo moos on my way to an emergency isn't a concern of mine, and it's not "negligent" to think so.


I'm not an emergency driver and I wouldn't want to tell someone who is how to do their job. However, I would hope that someone driving a big red truck would be concerned about the impact of their driving on others (including animals) around them. Would you give it a bit of airhorn and accelerate past if you were driving past a horserider?




> In no way could the victim's death have been a foreseeable event, and in no way should the firefighter be held responsible let alone being charged with manslaughter. You're just looking for a scapegoat for a freak accident. It's unfortunate the man died, but sometimes :censored::censored::censored::censored: happens.


Despite what I've just said, I think you're right here. This does sound a lot like an unpredictable, unforseen event and it's very difficult, technically and ethically, to apply the law to those.


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## LondonMedic (Mar 3, 2010)

To add; from the British Highway Code, which applies to _all_ road users;



> 214
> 
> Animals. When passing animals, drive slowly. Give them plenty of room and be ready to stop. Do not scare animals by sounding your horn, revving your engine or accelerating rapidly once you have passed them. Look out for animals being led, driven or ridden on the road and take extra care. Keep your speed down at bends and on narrow country roads. If a road is blocked by a herd of animals, stop and switch off your engine until they have left the road. Watch out for animals on unfenced roads.
> 215
> ...



However, the firey's procedures are that lights & sirens go on when they get a job and go off when they get there with no accounting for road conditions. Unlike the other two services they stick to that quite rigidly and will get run if they deviate from it.


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## EMSLaw (Mar 3, 2010)

LondonMedic said:


> What are you going to do? Hope that they will form an orderly queue on the side of the road?



Only if it's an English cow.

Anyway, this sounds like the freakest of freak accidents, but the article is a litle short on the details, as others have said.  Manslaughter usually requires a reckless disregard for the safety of others - you see a danger, you recognize it, and you do what you want anyway.

OTOH... I've driven on English country roads.  And even worse, Irish country roads. (Some of those potholes need lifeguards after it rains!)  Is it really necessary to go lights and sirens when you're cruising down a narrow, one-lane road at 30 mph hoping that you won't wind up peeing blood from all the bumps when you get to the other end?


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## mct601 (Mar 3, 2010)

So let me get this straight, a fire truck was responding to an emergency, the cows get spooked, run, and kill the guy?


How is the FF responsible for the guys death? Was he supposed to know the cows were going to run him over? Maybe its just me, but I don't see a manslaughter charge in this. I see a freak accident. The FF did not run the man over directly, they did not shoot him, or anything like that.  The British laws are pretty ridiculous.


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## AnthonyM83 (Mar 3, 2010)

The answer will probably be in the specifics. Was there an interaction prior to. Were they responding silent, then suddenly turned on sirens to spook cows without noticing/caring farmer was amidst them. Etc etc.

Even if after all facts are revealed, the manslaughter charge is still ridiculous, I bet there were details that led to charge...


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## LucidResq (Mar 3, 2010)

LondonMedic said:


> Would you give it a bit of airhorn and accelerate past if you were driving past a horserider?



As a former equestrian I'm going to have to say that a herd of cows vs. someone on horseback is comparing to apples to oranges. A single person on horseback is unlikely to block the road in the first place. Even if this did occur perhaps a charge of manslaughter would be warranted if someone blew an airhorn at them considering the average person knows that horses are easily spooked and spooking a horse would put the rider at serious risk of injury. 

Did the firefighters even see the man? If not I would find it hard to justify this charge.


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## nomofica (Mar 3, 2010)

AnthonyM83 said:


> The answer will probably be in the specifics. Was there an interaction prior to. Were they responding silent, then suddenly turned on sirens to spook cows without noticing/caring farmer was amidst them. Etc etc.
> 
> Even if after all facts are revealed, the manslaughter charge is still ridiculous, I bet there were details that led to charge...



The article states that the FFs were responding L&S to an emergency. 


Also, we all have to remember that the news is paid to sensationalize whatever story they're covering.


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## VentMedic (Mar 3, 2010)

If you are driving an emergency vehicle to a scene and your actions cause harm to others, you may be liable. For some areas in this country we can use cars as an example instead of cattle. If you are in a traffic jam and attempt to force cars unsafely into the path of oncoming traffic with horns, sirens or bumper taps, you may be very liable and charged with a serious crime if someone is killed. If you recklessly approach a scene without regard to bystanders and someone is injured or killed, you may be liable. If you intentionally escalate a situation at a scene such as a riot or a human stampede, you may be liable.

If you are ininvoled in any aspect of emergency response, you must be aware of your actions. Haste may make waste and it is unfortunate if that waste involves a human life.


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## nomofica (Mar 4, 2010)

VentMedic said:


> If you are driving an emergency vehicle to a scene and your actions cause harm to others, you may be liable. For some areas in this country we can use cars as an example instead of cattle. If you are in a traffic jam and attempt to force cars unsafely into the path of oncoming traffic with horns, sirens or bumper taps, you may be very liable and charged with a serious crime if someone is killed. If you recklessly approach a scene without regard to bystanders and someone is injured or killed, you may be liable. If you intentionally escalate a situation at a scene such as a riot or a human stampede, you may be liable.
> 
> If you are ininvoled in any aspect of emergency response, you must be aware of your actions. Haste may make waste and it is unfortunate if that waste involves a human life.



However, those are foreseeable events.


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## VentMedic (Mar 4, 2010)

nomofica said:


> However, those are foreseeable events.


 
If those are foreseeable events why do some still do them and put lives at risk?

Have you ever honked your car horn to get an animal out of your path? Did you not expect the animal to be frightened and run away so is it such of an unforeseeable event? 

What do you think cows will do if blasted with sirens and wasn't the response of the cows moving part of the reason for the sirens? However, would it not have been wise to see that the human was out of harms way? 

I would like to know where this came from as it was also mentioned on that forum.
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"...His son, Richard, 42, who was moving the cows along a B-road with his father at the time of the tragedy, said the fire engine approached with full lights and sirens on.

The driver turned off the sirens at his request but became impatient when the cows failed to move quickly and then blasted them back on.

The startled cows turned and stampeded back over Harold, who was at the rear of the herd and had got off his quad bike to calm them."

Click to expand...

_ 
If the driver knew the father and son were with the cows and still blasted the cows, then that may be grounds for presecution. He wanted the cows to move quicker even if it meant endangering the humans nearby.


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## Scout (Mar 4, 2010)

It is my understanding the Cows have right of way on Uk roads.


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## LondonMedic (Mar 4, 2010)

LucidResq said:


> Even if this did occur perhaps a charge of manslaughter would be warranted if someone blew an airhorn at them considering the average person knows that horses are easily spooked and spooking a horse would put the rider at serious risk of injury.


The average person should know (or at least the average person driving on a country road, let alone an EFAD). As mentioned previously, it's explicitly mentioned in the Highway Code.




LucidResq said:


> Did the firefighters even see the man? If not I would find it hard to justify this charge.


Since when has 'I didn't see him' been a defence in relation to road crime? As with any other form of driving, they should have presumed that there was someone there, or round the corner, or in the hidden dip, until proven otherwise.


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## mct601 (Mar 4, 2010)

LondonMedic said:


> The average person should know (or at least the average person driving on a country road, let alone an EFAD). As mentioned previously, it's explicitly mentioned in the Highway Code.
> 
> 
> Since when has 'I didn't see him' been a defence in relation to road crime? As with any other form of driving, they should have presumed that there was someone there, or round the corner, or in the hidden dip, until proven otherwise.



Well after reading your highway code and seeing VentMedic's post, per British law technically the driver is at fault.


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## LondonMedic (Mar 4, 2010)

mct601 said:


> Well after reading your highway code and seeing VentMedic's post, per British law technically the driver is at fault.


That's not to say I don't have sympathy for him. We are all susceptible to a bit of 'red mist' and if this is was a rare job for a keen vollie then I can see why 'fear of missing out' could have precipitated him acting like he did.


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## nomofica (Mar 4, 2010)

VentMedic said:


> If those are foreseeable events why do some still do them and put lives at risk?




I will never deny there are stupid people. If there weren't, we'd have a lot less work to do.




> _"...His son, Richard, 42, who was moving the cows along a B-road with his father at the time of the tragedy, said the fire engine approached with full lights and sirens on.
> 
> The driver turned off the sirens at his request but became impatient when the cows failed to move quickly and then blasted them back on._



If this was the case, then I agree a charge of manslaughter is warranted.


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## medic417 (Jul 2, 2010)

For updates see the thread that was started because someone high in the ranks of emtlife failed to search. 

http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=18760


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