# 2012 Election Thread



## ffemt8978 (Oct 16, 2012)

It's that time again, and we all know that we have a presidential election coming up this year.

This thread is the only place where we can discuss the candidates and how their platforms affect EMS.

*THIS IS NOT MEANT AS A GENERAL DISCUSSION OF THE CANDIDATES, OR POLITICS IN GENERAL.*

Please keep the discussion on topic as it pertains to EMS. If this gets out of hand, or it goes beyond it's scope, this thread will be removed.  Any political/election posts in any other threads posted after this thread is started will be removed.

So here are the rules for this thread.
1) BE POLITE
2) Give reasons why you think one candidate may be better than the other.
3) BE POLITE
4) Provide sources/references if possible
5) BE POLITE
6) There is _NO _Rule #6
7) Keep it confined to EMS related topics.
8) Most importantly, BE POLITE.


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## martor (Oct 17, 2012)

I politely wish to vote for Ron Paul. The only one that was consistent through out the years. And he is a DOCTOR !!!! 

I really dont think this thread will end well. -_-


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## Tigger (Oct 17, 2012)

Honestly I don't think either candidate has the foggiest idea of EMS is, much how less screwed up it is in some places. State governments aren't much better, and they are in charge of administering it so I really don't have much hope.


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## DrParasite (Oct 17, 2012)

Tigger said:


> Honestly I don't think either candidate has the foggiest idea of EMS is, much how less screwed up it is in some places. State governments aren't much better, and they are in charge of administering it so I really don't have much hope.


Pretty much.  We are such a small lobbying group that neither candidate cares about EMS.

If we Obama wins, we will have the same inaction that we have had for the past 4 years.  lots of promises, but very little fulfillment.

If Romney wins, we are all screwed.

If anyone can cite ANY sources where either candidate can cite anything directly about EMS (outside of medicare and medicaid as a whole), I would be shocked.


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## Veneficus (Oct 17, 2012)

DrParasite said:


> Pretty much.  We are such a small lobbying group that neither candidate cares about EMS.
> 
> If we Obama wins, we will have the same inaction that we have had for the past 4 years.  lots of promises, but very little fulfillment.
> 
> ...



There is usually a photo op or two of political candidates talking about how important first responders are.

Aside from calling 911 if they need an ambulance, I doubt they know or care anything about EMS at all.

They care about fire because the IAFF gives big money to political campaigns.

But as anyone who has worked on an FD for any length of time can tell you, once an election is over, emergency service is the first line on the chopping block when budgets are put together.

I would never vote for Ron Paul, Doctor or not, he lives in a world that hasn't existed in 50 years. Some of his ideas sound good because he says things that we want to hear no matter how unlikely or outright outrageous they are.

As for the other two, the only real difference I see between them is what special interest groups they pander to.

I think the importance of the office of president is over-exaggerated for what they really do and their ability to affect law and policy.


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## abckidsmom (Oct 17, 2012)

Obama can't even remember which are the people you want to have help syncopal supporters.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CifpjnVawME[/YOUTUBE]

I'm pretty sure EMS is a fair ways down the list of priorities.


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## Copper (Oct 20, 2012)

Regardless of my bitterness of our democracy and apathy I think both parties show to real issues -- I think there is a significant difference between the two.  I'll be voting Obama.

In a lot of Republican rhetoric, it seems teachers, firefighters etc seem to count as bureaucratic government.  Some things should not make a profit in my opinion.  Love learning about the issues more though.


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## Rialaigh (Oct 20, 2012)

Tigger said:


> Honestly I don't think either candidate has the foggiest idea of *EMS* is, much how less screwed up it is in some places. State governments aren't much better, and they are in charge of administering it so I really don't have much hope.





They both know what the *Emergency Money Supply* is...they have been using it for forever...frequently...and with poor results 




I'm not sure on either parties positions on public services in general (specifically fire and EMS) but I do have a lot of concern anytime new grant money is introduced or some type of new federal funding is introduced. Most of the federal programs are very inefficient and are very very poor very temporary fixes to some underlying problem. I would rather see no federal funding than this hodge podge of poorly designed federal programs (the SAFER grant comes to mind)...provide barely enough money to hire a few new guys for a couple of years, and then at the end of the couple of years the city or country is worse off with guys they can't pay but now owe benefits and retirement...and the cycle perpetuates itself. 


So yes, not sure on positions, but if we see new federal funding programs for emergency services I will likely be very displeased, they are almost always poorly planned and implemented and end up costing taxpayers more money in the long run (which it has been the long run for a while now...)


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## TB 3541 (Oct 21, 2012)

DrParasite said:


> If Romney wins, we are all screwed.



I'm not saying that you're wrong, but how will he do this?


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## Achilles (Oct 21, 2012)

DrParasite said:


> If anyone can cite ANY sources where either candidate can cite anything directly about EMS (outside of medicare and medicaid as a whole), I would be shocked.


http://www.emsvillage.com/articles/article.cfm?id=2185


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## JPINFV (Oct 22, 2012)

I think Romney is going to need a refresher on the Parkland Formula after the debate tonight.


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## bigbaldguy (Oct 22, 2012)

Achilles said:


> http://www.emsvillage.com/articles/article.cfm?id=2185



Obama mentioned making it easier for military medics to transition into civilian medical fields. Nursing to be specific.

I wonder if this will do to EMS what all the pilots coming out of the military did to the airline industry during the Clinton years?


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## firecoins (Oct 23, 2012)

The realtity is that your votes don't count. With only 2 viable candidates, we have no real choices. Romney has held every view since he was governor and Obama has been unimpressive. He didn't show up for state senate job, his senate job and I am not to sure he showed up here. Obama care was greates acheivement and it was modeled on Romney care which Romney has vowed to overturn but won't. 

Any president would have given the order to get UBL.


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## Tigger (Oct 23, 2012)

firecoins said:


> The realtity is that your votes don't count. With only 2 viable candidates, we have no real choices. Romney has held every view since he was governor and Obama has been unimpressive. He didn't show up for state senate job, his senate job and I am not to sure he showed up here. Obama care was greates acheivement and it was modeled on Romney care which Romney has vowed to overturn but won't.
> 
> Any president would have given the order to get UBL.



While Mitt Romney did approve the Massachusetts Health Care Insurance Reform Law, I cannot stand how it is referred to as Romneycare in this election. While he originally supported it, he did not play a large in its creation and ended up vetoing several key portions of it that were later overruled by the state legislature.


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## TxMedic512 (Oct 25, 2012)

I just cant take four more years of taking from hard workers to pay for non workers. I see the affordable care act making our jobs harder and our budget smaller, once the govt owns or atleast has a finger in every aspect of our lives they can tell us what we are worth and what we should make and i think that would lead to the demise of 3rd service ems


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## akflightmedic (Oct 25, 2012)

firecoins said:


> Any president would have given the order to get UBL.



Actually, Bush had the opportunity twice which is well documented and verified in various military journals, nonfiction books and documents. He passed...

There may have been more, but who knows?


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## systemet (Oct 25, 2012)

akflightmedic said:


> Actually, Bush had the opportunity twice which is well documented and verified in various military journals, nonfiction books and documents. He passed...
> 
> There may have been more, but who knows?



Also, they did eventually go in, and kill him, in *Pakistan*.  Short of putting Obama versus Osama as the main event of the UFC after the Superbowl, what more do people want?


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## JPINFV (Oct 25, 2012)

systemet said:


> Also, they did eventually go in, and kill him, in *Pakistan*.  Short of putting Obama versus Osama as the main event of the UFC after the Superbowl, what more do people want?




Monday Night Rehabilitation!


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## coloradochick (Nov 3, 2012)

*Well.....*

I voted for Obama because he supports workers as a whole.  If we want him or any other politician to understand who we are and what we do, it is on US!  Just because you may not be interested in politics doesn't mean politics are not interested in YOU!  Other groups lobby politicians so why don't we?  <_<


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## VFlutter (Nov 3, 2012)

bigbaldguy said:


> Obama mentioned making it easier for military medics to transition into civilian medical fields. Nursing to be specific /QUOTE]
> 
> This has created quite the stir on the nursing forums. Many felt it was said in a derogatory way kind if like "our military medics can't even get a job as a nurse". I agree that there should be some type of transition but when it comes down to it military training is not the same as nursing and holds little value. Maybe they should focus on raising their training standards to NREMT-P instead of Basic and allow medics to tradition into civivlian EMS roles.
> 
> I think  some military medics think since they can perform advanced procedures outside that of civilian scope that it somehow entitles them to be able to practice those skills once returning even though they have little education and training to support them. It is done out of necessity


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## DesertMedic66 (Nov 3, 2012)

Wonder how voting is going to work if I'm still deployed in New York.


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## lightsandsirens5 (Nov 3, 2012)

Oh that's a good question. I'd call your state auditor or whoever handles elections there.


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## MMiz (Nov 3, 2012)

firefite said:


> Wonder how voting is going to work if I'm still deployed in New York.


I called *1-866-OUR-VOTE *with a question, immediately got someone on the phone, and they were able to answer my question about voting.  

http://www.866ourvote.org/about


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## Impulse (Nov 4, 2012)




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## JPINFV (Nov 4, 2012)

Impulse said:


> [Gary Johnson ad]



Now if there only wasn't Congress there to stand in the way.


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## VFlutter (Nov 4, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> Now if there only wasn't Congress there to stand in the way.



Out of all the candidates I think I agree with him on the most topics but that ad was totally biased.


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## JPINFV (Nov 4, 2012)

ChaseZ33 said:


> Out of all the candidates I think I agree with him on the most topics but that ad was totally biased.




I agree with him too, and since I live in California and can't bring myself to vote for either Obama or Romney, I'm sent my vote his way to help get the Libertarian party "major party status" (5% of the vote). That doesn't change the fact that most to all of those requires Congress to vote on it and they aren't going to be legalizing marijuana or many other things he wants any time soon.


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## lightsandsirens5 (Nov 4, 2012)

I agree with him on maybe 30%. 

That being said, the fact that he paints Obama and Romney as identical (save some wording differences) makes me question if I can even believe what he says about himself.


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## Veneficus (Nov 4, 2012)

Another out of touch idiot, might as well vote for Palin.

*Balance budget? *

In his dreams. He can suggest all the cuts he wants. Won't happen. Plus the most major cuts would have to come from the military and defense. Those industries not only have a significant lobby, they provide significant jobs.

*Reduce federal spending 43%?*

Another whacky dream. What is he planning to make major cuts in to do this? Medicare? Social security? Transportation? Research?

*Increase government debt by 0?*

I'd love to see it. But not realistic.

*Repeal patriot act?*

Another thing I would like to see that has absolutely no chance to pass congress or popular vote.

*Abolish the federal reserve*

Another dreamy idea. Perhaps unchecked inflation is a good idea?

*Repeal Obamacare?*

A great idea, let's go to a pay to play medical system where after government coverage is stripped to nothing to balance the budget people wil not have access to medical care at all. A fine choice.

*Gun rights*

Sure, a gun for everyone! Be realistic. It is not that the other two candidates are against gun ownership, they simply want responsible ownership. 

Ye ha!!! Let's shoot up all those people without medical coverage once we balance that budget!

*Afghanistan*

Bring all troops home now. Plus the contractors. Then get all pissy when somebody fly a jet into a building in the US. (or worse) 

Of course we will be able to immediate retaliate against such transgressions with our new stripped out military!

Anyone who thinks afghanistan is over in 2014 is fooling themselves. Anyone who thinks simply pulling out now will not make matters worse is probably somebody who also thinks the withdrawel method is effective birthcontrol. (while smoking pot)

*Iran*

Completely out of touch. Iran is not a US problem it is a world problem. What is his plan if an Iranian proxy drops a bomb on our ally Israel or threatens Saudi?

*the next 2 are the SAA*


*Same sex marriage*

Simply by his will he plans to strike down states with laws opposing it or pass it through a republican legislator?

Best of luck to him.

*Legalize Marijuana*

An outstanding idea. Let us make readily available a drug linked to schizophrenia and gut healthcare spending. That'll really help the US!

*Individual campaign donors*

Obviously this dumbass hasn't heard the supreme court thinks corperations are people too and enjoy the same rights. Apparently he hasn't heard of super PACs either...

This is why 3rd party candidates never get serious consideration. They have no idea of the complexities of issues. They just say stuff people want to hear or would like if we lived in fantasyland where issues were not connected.

Maybe he should stay home smoke some weed and make the country's issues all go away in his mind. Another perfect example of why less populated states should not have equal status with population centers.


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## VFlutter (Nov 4, 2012)

Veneficus said:


> An outstanding idea. Let us make readily available a drug linked to schizophrenia



As if it is not already readily available? Cigarettes are linked to more health problems than marijuana and they are legal. Maybe the taxes generated off its legalization could go towards the cost of healthcare. 

Did anyone see that documentary about Heliburton? If that is true, it s crazy how much government money they wasted and literally burned away (Buring trucks with flat tires instead of attempting to repair them).


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## Veneficus (Nov 4, 2012)

ChaseZ33 said:


> As if it is not already readily available? Cigarettes are linked to more health problems than marijuana and they are legal. Maybe the taxes generated off its legalization could go towards the cost of healthcare.



:rofl::rofl::rofl:

I will be the first to admit "the war on drugs" is not only a failure but outright stupid.

However, despite it's popularity, it would probably be better for the US to make opioids available OTC than it would be to legalize MJ.

A schitzo is not just a threat to themself. Without treatment they can be a threat to everyone around them. They will also be fine contributors to society when they are on disability from their worsening mental illness.   



ChaseZ33 said:


> Did anyone see that documentary about Heliburton? If that is true, it s crazy how much government money they wasted and literally burned away (Buring trucks with flat tires instead of attempting to repair them).



I am no friend of haliburton either, but I do have idea on the realities of war and if you think the cost of burning trucks sucks, you will really not like the cost of trying to repair the logistics chains that will make fixing them a responsible choice. Mostly because they would have to be completely run and secured by the military and it is cheaper to let some Paki skim 20+% of all cargo he drives into Afghanistan.

That is my point, these issues do not exist independantly. There is no fast and easy fix. There is no way to extricate ourselves from this mess in an easy way. Otherwise we would have done it and it would all be history.

Canidates who think they can or have the easy answers simply do not have the knowledge to be a responsible president. They are no different than tea partyers and their oversimplified extremist views.


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## Impulse (Nov 4, 2012)




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## firecoins (Nov 4, 2012)

Impulse said:


>


this is my viewpoint exactly


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## Veneficus (Nov 5, 2012)

*common ground...*

I can't wait until Wednesday


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## Imacho (Nov 5, 2012)

We were doing standby at the charlotte airport today. A lady had a sncyopal at the very front of the crowd in from of the stage, breathing and not responsive. Michelle got to see my partner and I take her away to the truck. Secret service carried our bags for us.  News cameras everywhere. But won't be televised cause that would be bad political rep.


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## JPINFV (Nov 5, 2012)

Imacho said:


> We were doing standby at the charlotte airport today. A lady had a sncyopal at the very front of the crowd in from of the stage, breathing and not responsive. Michelle got to see my partner and I take her away to the truck. Secret service carried our bags for us.  News cameras everywhere. But won't be televised cause that would be bad political rep.



So someone passes out at a political rally and that's somehow news worthy, and the First Lady's fault?


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## lightsandsirens5 (Nov 6, 2012)

Well, it's here.....


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## CritterNurse (Nov 6, 2012)

I've been hearing 'rumors' that go along the lines of "If so-and-so wins (or such-and-such passes), then within a week the banks will be closed and uniformed troops will be marching in the streets."

Of course there will be, no matter what the polls show. Monday is Veteran's Day. 

I just hope the ones passing the 'rumor' are in on the long-running joke, and not just paranoid, or trying to influence other people's votes by making them think that the country's going to immediately go down the drain if the 'evil opponent' or 'evil bill' gets voted in.


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## CritterNurse (Nov 6, 2012)

Sorry about the double post, but didn't feel right editing my last one to add this news article I just saw.

Michigan man dies, is revived at poll—and makes sure he voted


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## bigbaldguy (Nov 6, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> So someone passes out at a political rally and that's somehow news worthy, and the First Lady's fault?



Well hell if it had been Justin Beber no one would have blinked.

Actually people pass out all the time waiting to see her. People will wait hours and hours in line just to get a book signed. Then they start moving around and poof down they go. 

There's even a clip floating around where Obama asks people in the crowd to wave down a paramedic if they're feeling woozy. Only he misspeaks and says paralegals instead.


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## bigbaldguy (Nov 6, 2012)

CritterNurse said:


> Sorry about the double post, but didn't feel right editing my last one to add this news article I just saw.
> 
> Michigan man dies, is revived at poll—and makes sure he voted



Hmm pretty amazing CPR if it can restart a dead guys heart


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## Handsome Robb (Nov 6, 2012)

There are going to be some grumpy coworkers at work tomorrow. That's all I'm gonna say about it.


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## coloradochick (Nov 7, 2012)

*Really?*



NVRob said:


> There are going to be some grumpy coworkers at work tomorrow. That's all I'm gonna say about it.



Well, I won't be one of them! ^_^


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## lightsandsirens5 (Nov 7, 2012)

I could cry....

Among other sad things, my state just legalized weed.


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## Tigger (Nov 7, 2012)

NVRob said:


> There are going to be some grumpy coworkers at work tomorrow. That's all I'm gonna say about it.



Of course even if the opposite result occured, there would still be grumpy coworkers.

Welcome to America, home of two party politics and the land of disenfranchisement!


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## Impulse (Nov 7, 2012)




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## lightsandsirens5 (Nov 7, 2012)

Impulse said:


>



Same here.....


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## mycrofft (Nov 7, 2012)

I hate it when the candidates are less than thirty percentage points apart in both electoral and popular votes. Like the groundhog seeing its shadow, four more years of gridlock


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## Handsome Robb (Nov 7, 2012)

Tigger said:


> Of course even if the opposite result occured, there would still be grumpy coworkers.
> 
> Welcome to America, home of two party politics and the land of disenfranchisement!



Not nearly as many though lol


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## ffemt8978 (Nov 7, 2012)

I'm beginning to believe that we should change how the Electoral College works.  Make them vote based upon Congressional districts instead of if you win by one vote you get ALL of the state's electoral votes.  This would actually be more representative of how the popular vote goes.


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## Veneficus (Nov 7, 2012)

ffemt8978 said:


> I'm beginning to believe that we should change how the Electoral College works.  Make them vote based upon Congressional districts instead of if you win by one vote you get ALL of the state's electoral votes.  This would actually be more representative of how the popular vote goes.



I think we should do away with it completely.

Popular vote only. Otherwise it means your vote does not count. I also heard a rhumor in some states a delegate can vote as they choose and historically there have been 2 who have voted against what the state decided.

Way too much power.


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## ffemt8978 (Nov 7, 2012)

Veneficus said:


> I think we should do away with it completely.
> 
> Popular vote only. Otherwise it means your vote does not count. I also heard a rhumor in some states a delegate can vote as they choose and historically there have been 2 who have voted against what the state decided.
> 
> Way too much power.



That would require a Constitutional Amendment.  Changing how the delegates vote can be done by changing either state laws or making a federal law.


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## silver (Nov 7, 2012)

ffemt8978 said:


> I'm beginning to believe that we should change how the Electoral College works.  Make them vote based upon Congressional districts instead of if you win by one vote you get ALL of the state's electoral votes.  This would actually be more representative of how the popular vote goes.



However, congressional districts still aren't of equal populations. I think there is a variation of 400k between the largest and smallest district. Additionally, each district doesn't have equal voters. It would be interesting to see a change to popular vote, but I just don't see that happening (beyond making an amendment). Logistically it is a nightmare already and we don't count every vote accurately as is now. Potentially you may see more states splitting there electoral college votes though.


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## Veneficus (Nov 7, 2012)

ffemt8978 said:


> That would require a Constitutional Amendment. .



Not a chance at that.

It would mean all of the rural states wouldn't be able to block what all the populated states wanted.

I believe it was Justice Scalia who recently said the current system in the US gave disproportional power to the rural states and would not be sustainable in the future.



ffemt8978 said:


> Changing how the delegates vote can be done by changing either state laws or making a federal law.



I still do not like the idea of the electoral college. I think it is a outdated concept. 

Prohibition was.


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## Tigger (Nov 7, 2012)

If we do away with the electoral college, that would be an excellent way to start the process of abolishing the two party system. 

I am undecided if I am actually for such action. While I hate how partisan this country has become, the stability associated with it is something that most Americans do not understand. In a true multi-party system, the swings of power in the upper levels of government can be very de-stabilizing and prevent any sort of long term initiatives from being implemented. I'm not sure a nation as large as America could tolerate this.


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## Achilles (Nov 7, 2012)




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## 46Young (Nov 7, 2012)

Whether or not this can be blamed by the current administration, there are a number of us that have been thinking about possibly moving to another country should we have conditions similar to Weimar Germany, which is rampant hyperinflation. I'd hate to retire and have my pension check command the purchasing power of a minimum wage salary or worse.

It's funny - I've been saying that I would look into the job market for paramedics in Australia. This morning, a co-worker that is not a paramedic said the same thing. I get home, and my wife said that people were posting maps of Australia and voicing a move there as a real option if nothing changes for the better with our government.

BTW, I remember a thread about U.S. paramedics seeking employment in Australia. Anyone remember the name?

Anyhow, I believe that Real Estate is the best hedge against inflation. I'm going to closing for my second home in a couple of weeks, so at least my payments will be static with the exceptions of taxes and insurance.


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## Sharky (Nov 7, 2012)

I would like to see even 1/2 the people who say they're going to leave the country after an election actually do so.

Right after I see Sasquatch....

:rofl:


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## 46Young (Nov 7, 2012)

Sharky said:


> I would like to see even 1/2 the people who say they're going to leave the country after an election actually do so.
> 
> Right after I see Sasquatch....
> 
> :rofl:



Well, if a loaf of bread ends up costing me $25, and gas is $30/gal (which could happen with hyperinflation)
, I''ll have to figure out something. And that's no laughing matter. 

Why do you think illegals come here for work and handouts? Making $40/week in their country is kind of the same thing. We could easily regress to Third World conditions. Look at NYC and LI after the hurricane and multiply that by several factors


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## JPINFV (Nov 7, 2012)

silver said:


> However, congressional districts still aren't of equal populations. I think there is a variation of 400k between the largest and smallest district. Additionally, each district doesn't have equal voters. It would be interesting to see a change to popular vote, but I just don't see that happening (beyond making an amendment). Logistically it is a nightmare already and we don't count every vote accurately as is now. Potentially you may see more states splitting there electoral college votes though.


 

The biggest issue is that states are given an elector for every member of Congress. Congressional districts are only used in the House of Representatives while the 2 senators are statewide representatives. At best, you can go district by district and give a bonus 2 electors to whoever wins statewide.


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## lightsandsirens5 (Nov 7, 2012)

Veneficus said:


> Not a chance at that.
> 
> It would mean all of the rural states wouldn't be able to block what all the populated states wanted.
> 
> ...



Disproportionate power to the rural states? My eye!

I beg to differ.


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## ffemt8978 (Nov 7, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> The biggest issue is that states are given an elector for every member of Congress. Congressional districts are only used in the House of Representatives while the 2 senators are statewide representatives. At best, you can go district by district and give a bonus 2 electors to whoever wins statewide.



That's the plan that would make the most sense.  Each district would get an equal voice, and the overall winner of the state gets the benefit of the additional two electoral votes.


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