# soldier kills herself after failing emt exam



## amberdt03 (Apr 26, 2009)

"The military says a soldier who flunked out of combat medic training has been found dead in an apparent suicide at the Fort Sam Houston barracks."

very short story and pretty sad that she didn't think that she could live since she failed.





http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?id=9408&siteSection=1


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## bstone (Apr 26, 2009)

Wow....sad. Very sad. Sounds like she had a major history of depression and suicidal ideation.


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## daedalus (Apr 26, 2009)

That is terrible. Poor thing.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Apr 26, 2009)

Question for any of ya Paramedic out there:

My county used to run a Paramedic Program; a very good one as I have been told by some (at least better than most in CA ).  I was told years ago, when I was contimplating it, that this program was so intense that they documents at least 1 divorce every class and 3 suicides in 5 years.  Whether or not those deaths can be solely attributed to the course is debatable, but...

Have you witnesses similar stats in medic school or even in other more intense schooling (RN, PT, PA, etc...)?????


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## Sapphyre (Apr 26, 2009)

Yes Mountain, I've heard of similar stats for the school I will be going to.  Bad enough that they have a student orientation, and a family orientation, to explain to the family just what to expect.  They also have "family night" throughout the course to help keep the families together...


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## mycrofft (Apr 26, 2009)

*With all due respect to everyone, that's hogwash and the schools' fault.*

It reinforces weak egos and sadistic psyches to scare applicants, and then pressure students. If a program is causing that much damage, the instructors need to be sued. We're not talking nuclear reactor engineering here...and the same applies there.

Want to hear something I learned? Sometimes if you washed out of other tech schools in the military or showed insufficient aggressive tendencies, they would transfer new troops or school washouts to medic duty then cross train them. Many found a niche, but if it was your last hope and you were washing out of it, that could do it. (Mayo in _"An Officer and a Gentleman"_: "I got nowhere else to go!!!").Unutterably sad.


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## Ridryder911 (Apr 26, 2009)

I doubt it was the "schools fault" more as it was a horrible tragedy. As bad as it that it was, it is doubtful that her psyche could have had handle the function or role of being an EMT if just failing was the sole cause of her death (which I really doubt). 

Again, a definite need for screening of applicants entering the EMS education and possible profession. Ironically it describes she had been assigned to the military police unit. Maybe, that itself was part of the reasoning or as in most cases of suicide; Who really knows the reason of the depression? 

In regards to other professions committing suicide, yes. I have seen and read where many medical students and nursing students have a high rate of suicidal tendencies. NREMT performed a scientific research a few years ago in regards of divorce, alcoholism, etc within the profession and it was found we had no higher than the norm. Again, another myth we promote. 

R/r 911


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## Amack (May 10, 2009)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> Question for any of ya Paramedic out there:
> 
> My county used to run a Paramedic Program; a very good one as I have been told by some (at least better than most in CA ).  I was told years ago, when I was contimplating it, that this program was so intense that they documents at least 1 divorce every class and 3 suicides in 5 years.  Whether or not those deaths can be solely attributed to the course is debatable, but...
> 
> Have you witnesses similar stats in medic school or even in other more intense schooling (RN, PT, PA, etc...)?????



Medic school is very demanding of more than just your time alone. It commands your patience, your mental composure, and many cases (due to time management/constraints) your social schedule. 

I can't speak for other medic programs across the country, but I will use my experience in Massachussetts as the example. On the very first day of class, we were explained and cautioned of the demanding nature of the program, and essentially were presented with a written contract agreeing to give up a year of our lives to devote to the the academic and clinical curriculum. In my program, the course was broken down to 608 hours of didactic classroom which after a month or so in, would run concurrently with clinical intership (which warranted a minimum of 400 hours or more) with a finishing total of over 1000+ hours.

 That being said, a humorous anectdote (to make light of, and to accentuate the seriousness of the program) was detailed as follows...in one of the prior paramedic courses, the school record was set by a male student who 1.) met 2.) dated 3.) impregnated 4.) married 5.) had the baby 6.) divorced...all withing the span of the program.

I've never heard of any suicides attributed to the stressors precipitated by medic school, but then again, if so, the questions would be raised, if there were pre-existing circumstances with family, friends or financial burdens, and whether of not the additional load of classroom and clinicals was just the tip of the iceberg.


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## alphatrauma (May 10, 2009)

Amack said:


> ... the school record was set by a male student who 1.) met 2.) dated 3.) impregnated 4.) married 5.) had the baby 6.) divorced...all withing the span of the program.





That's awesome!


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## el Murpharino (May 10, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> I doubt it was the "schools fault" more as it was a horrible tragedy. As bad as it that it was, it is doubtful that her psyche could have had handle the function or role of being an EMT if just failing was the sole cause of her death (which I really doubt).
> 
> Again, a definite need for screening of applicants entering the EMS education and possible profession. Ironically it describes she had been assigned to the military police unit. Maybe, that itself was part of the reasoning or as in most cases of suicide; Who really knows the reason of the depression?
> 
> ...



As I'm sure you know, the military's screening process is rather ineffective - pulse? check...can you spell/sign your name? check - combined with the fact that many applicants lie about their personal history to get in.  I'm going to say this is a rather isolated incident, that just happened to be in medic training.  I'm sure she would have done the same thing regardless of what career field she flunked.


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## emt1994 (May 10, 2009)

That is such a great loss maybe she was bipolar or something. Which Im surprised because the military has a heavy screening process before they allow someone to join.


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## Mountain Res-Q (May 10, 2009)

emt1994 said:


> That is such a great loss maybe she was bipolar or something. Which Im surprised because *the military has a heavy screening process before they allow someone to join*.



You are joking right?


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## emt1994 (May 10, 2009)

What about the military My sister was airforce and she had to go through so much medical exams , physical fitness, and went to see a .dr to make sure she was fit to join Unfort. She died anyways  in an accident on base but she couldnt join if she wasnt physically or mentally fit. that was in 80's maybe the process has changed but thats too bad someone was so depressed that they killed themself. thats just terrible which ever way you look at it..


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## Amack (May 10, 2009)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> You are joking right?



LOL!:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Kookaburra (May 11, 2009)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> You are joking right?



There are certain health conditions that will bar you from service. Developing asthma after a nasty bout of pneumonia killed my plans to go to the Air Force Academy. Acting like anyone with a pulse can get in is pretty insulting to those of us who want to serve but can't.


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## Mountain Res-Q (May 11, 2009)

Kookaburra said:


> There are certain health conditions that will bar you from service. Developing asthma after a nasty bout of pneumonia killed my plans to go to the Air Force Academy. Acting like anyone with a pulse can get in is pretty insulting to those of us who want to serve but can't.



I never said that "anyone with a pulse" can get in.  That was el Murph.  To be honest, I know quite a few folks that joined up and do believe that standards aren't as high as some would believe.  Physically, I have no doubt that they weed out those with issues that could hinder there abilities.  Mentally and Emotionally, how can any screening process filter out those with some issues in that regard?  There are so many psychological conditions out there that have such mild manifestations that even trained psychologists have a hard time positively identifying and distinguishing.  People might appear perfectly normal, act normal, test normal, and behave normal... only to be a little... well, off.  Then you throw on the stress of training, classes, actual duty and SNAP... they go on a shooting rampage, or go manic, or kill themselves.  And this isn't just in the military.  How many people in health care, law enforcement, the fire service end up on the same "crazy train"?  Consider the 5 o'clock news and some really horrible story about a guy who kills his entire family and then offs himself.  They always interview neighbors (usually the stupidest ones they can find) who say what?  "He was the nicest guy.... Perfectly normal... I can't believe he would do something like this."  DUH.  Many psychotic breaks present with few warning signs that are noticed by Joe Public (including us) and are hard to diagnose through an interview or a single assembly line psychological test.  The point is that a military fitness test (or most fitness tests; but yea I am singling out the military who need those recruitment numbers to maintain a fighting force in spite of a war that most Americans don't believe in and want to get out of) are not gonna pick up most psychological issues.  Physical?  Sure.  Emotional and Mental?  Hard to imagine that any screening process is gonna work even most of the time.  Like was already said, she probably had more than a few mental issues (as does anyone who would kill themselves) that were not picked up the "great" military testing and filtering process.  It is sad and tragic, but often happens when stress meets mental instability.

This is just my humble opinion based upon 1. My psycho family and 2. My lack of trust in the governments ability to get anything right, especially a physiological test that most people in government would fail. ^_^


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## firemedic7982 (May 11, 2009)

Terrible tragedy indeed.


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## VFFforpeople (May 11, 2009)

Kookaburra said:


> There are certain health conditions that will bar you from service. Developing asthma after a nasty bout of pneumonia killed my plans to go to the Air Force Academy. Acting like anyone with a pulse can get in is pretty insulting to those of us who want to serve but can't.



I was USAF DEPER-Pararescue...Tore my ACL in Indoc..so I medicaled out and that was it. The only thing I was ever really questioned on was my credit history. (Construction tanked when the economy went down, I lost everything). Health, mental and physical were not really tested in AF,Army,Navy,USMC (I have friends that joined all). Never once were they asked, you ever been depressed? Ever though about killing your-self? Asthma? My simple answer..No (even though I have had it since I was a kid). Never questioned me. So, ya, pretty much 85-90% os anyone can get in if you want it bad enough. Army will sign and ship you that day..better than USP lol. (Thank you to all that have/are serving this country: Rip, Andrew Mims-USMC, Travis Woods-USMC)


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## Kookaburra (May 11, 2009)

VFFforpeople said:


> Asthma? My simple answer..No (even though I have had it since I was a kid).



Yeah, well, I take honesty pretty seriously and refused to lie to get in.:glare:


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## VFFforpeople (May 11, 2009)

Kookaburra said:


> Yeah, well, I take honesty pretty seriously and refused to lie to get in.:glare:



Ok, I was just saying what I did. Thats how I wanted it, and that how bad I wanted it. I am not saying I was right, or anything. Just different views.


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## Afflixion (May 18, 2009)

this is getting off topic but you can now enlist with asthma so long as it is controlled. When I was going through AIT there was a male stabbed in the jaw for stealing an iPod another purely isolate incident but training accidnet happen all the time in the military.


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## Kookaburra (May 18, 2009)

Hmm, when I tried to sign up last September, all of the recruiters pretty much dropped me like a hot potato when they found out I had asthma. They said only if you haven't had to use a rescue inhaler since 12 or 13 y/o. I use advair every day to control it, and have rarely had to use my albuterol.

Edit: What I mean is, I had heard the same thing, that they were now letting asthmatics in, so I tried to enlist.


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## mycrofft (May 18, 2009)

*Afflixin can you comment on your personal experience...*

...with active duty suicides?
In PEACETIME the troop dependents suicide rate in Nebraska was four times the local rate, per a local mortician, at the time (late 1970's).


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## Afflixion (May 18, 2009)

well i have a friend that is currently in with athletes asthma and the army was fully aware of it...


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## Ariodante (Jul 1, 2009)

*MD suicide*

There's a well documented  high suicide rate among MDs, and I'll never forget a first year resident who committed suicide at in teh basement of the hospital  where I worked. He was  adept, well adjusted, well liked and deeply empathic: Consensus was that the last trait finished him off.


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## Medic744 (Jul 1, 2009)

That is a very sad and tragic thing for her family to go through but I highly doubt that failure was the only reason.  People do not just wake up one day and decide that if one certain thing goes wrong they are going to end it.  There are many contributing factors and a long history of mental illness.  Research has also shown that while men are more likely to succeed at an attempt the first time, women do not and have a history of attempts.


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