# Nurse Arrested after Assaulting EMT who Asked Her to "Step Back"



## Mountain Res-Q

http://www.uniondemocrat.com/201001...o-charges-filed-against-nurse-who-saved-woman

Though I would post this and get everyone's opinion.  This is local.  Happened on New Years Eve.  I have first hand insider info as I know one of the the Responders involved.  Obviously, as always, the report is inaccurate, but here are the basics:

The patient's true medical condition was more than just a simple choking and arrest.  This off duty nurse who never provided evidence to the responders on scene that she was an RN was intoxicated (barely) and was performing emergency care in keeping with what she thought was appropriate.  Fire First Responders (an EMT and a MFR) arrived on scene and took over.  Nurse was in the way and was hindering the FF's ability to properly assess and treat (they were both experienced and equipped for this).  FF's repeatedly made it clear that the nurse was no longer needed; that she needed to step back and allow them to do their jobs, but the nurse continued to get in the way and even made a few rude remarks about the EMT.  At this point the EMT had to physically push the nurse aside in order to gain access to the patient and do his job, saying, “Get out of my way, ma’am, and let me do my job.”  Then the nurse hit the EMT across the face and "ran away" and out of sight of the EMT.  The EMT requested LE and continued to do his job.  LEOs arrived on scene and had to search for the nurse, who made an attempt hide from the LEOs.  She was arrested for 241b, "assault on peace officer, firefighter, EMT, etc..."  She was found to have a BAC of .06.  Charges were dropped by the DA and now the Nurse wants to go after the Fire District because in her mind she was right and the EMT was wrong.

Oh, and for the record, contrary to the report, the Nurse did not save the woman.  There was no spontaneous revival in an 80 y/o.  Medics worked on the patient for some time and it was a code 3 transport, during which she was still not breathing adequately on her own.

Thoughts?

IMHO:  She was intoxicated.  She never provided proof of who she was.  She was not equipped to provided care past mouth to mouth.  She had no legal authority to assume control over EMS.  She was hindering patient care.  The EMT had the legal resposibility to provide care and maintain control over the scene.  The nurse further hindered patient care by assaulting an EMT.  Hmmm...  Charge her and throw the book at her.


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## CAOX3

Agreed.

If information is correct throw the book at her.

Just because she s a nurse she gets leniency in assaulting an EMT?


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## VentMedic

You weren't there.

Your "facts" are heresay.

Your "facts" come from only one side.

The more times a story gets repeated the more distorted it becomes especially when egos and feelings are hurt.

The DA reviewed the case and dropped it.

If there had been an assault on the EMT, charges would have been filed especially if there had been witnesses.

For an 80 y/o to have survived without any neuro deficits, there had to have been some decent airway and circulation maintenance achieved early. This seems to have occurred dispite the peeing match happening on scene.



> Oh, and for the record, contrary to the report, the Nurse did not save the woman. There was no spontaneous revival in an 80 y/o.


*Credit was given to the EMTs for saving the woman's life.* Citizen initiated CPR also played a role. Maybe the EMTs would have preferred the patient had died so they could make their case stronger against the nurse.


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## alphatrauma

*forgive my cynicism*



VentMedic said:


> You weren't there.


 
and neither were you



VentMedic said:


> The DA reviewed the case and dropped it.
> 
> If there had been an assault on the EMT, charges would have been filed especially if there had been witnesses.



And we all know how perfect and consistent the criminal justice system is

If this nurse was under the influence, she had absolutely no business touching that patient. If the EMT lied about the battery, then he should be prosecuted for filing a false police report. The one good thing to come of this, is that the patient had a positive outcome... regardless of to whom thanks is due


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## VentMedic

alphatrauma said:


> and neither were you


 
I never stated that I was and I did not start this thread with the accusations against the nurse. 




alphatrauma said:


> And we all know how perfect and consistent the criminal justice system is
> 
> If this nurse was under the influence, she had absolutely no business touching that patient. If the EMT lied about the battery, then he should be prosecuted for filing a false police report. The one good thing to come of this, is that the patient had a positive outcome... regardless of to whom thanks is due


 
In most states, including California, a BAL of 0.06 is not considered above the legal limit and the report did not state how much above 0.06 she was. She was also not charged with public intoxication. Thus, it would be difficult to ignor a choking person in the same room if you are considered sober. Why the double standard? She may not have identified herself an a nurse which is exactly the same advice given to an EMT on this forum who provided assistance while drinking at a bar. The incident involving the nurse occurred at a restaurant with food being served and in California, many do consume alcohol with their meals especially wine which can have a alcohol content of 15%.   However, regardless of the location, if I come across an MVC or medical incident while off duty, I don't shout out my credentials either. The nurse did not do advanced treatment of any type and did what a lay person could do for this patient.  CPR is also what a FR or EMT would only be able to do in this situation in California. 

In any situation similar to this, how long would you stop CPR? Wouldn't it also be wise for those responding to get organized and have someone take over CPR rather than just stopping altogether for a few minutes? Whenever I have approached a scene with citizen CPR in progress, I do not just shove that person off or tell them to get lost. Their efforts are definitely of value. I assess the scene and then have someone take over just like it is taught in CPR classes. Uninterrupted CPR is now stressed in the guidelines and that nurse may have known this. Is it possible the EMT involved could have approached the scene a little differently by doing a smooth take over of CPR from the citizen until ALS arrived?


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## VentMedic

I also must add that discussing this incident, that just happened recently, on an open public forum which now comes up when this topic is googled may not be the wisest especially with the inflammatory statements and the "first hand insider info".  The EMT and the FD are not making statements for a reason and to have someone make comments for them may not make things go well either.


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## rescue99

The choking victim is alive through the combined efforts of both EMT's and the by stander but, the by stander needed to step back. She was intoxicated. If this went before a judge, the by stander would likely lose. Her intoxicated state might come back to bite her in the tush. Fire is being much more professional about the whole thing IMO.


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## LondonMedic

rescue99 said:


> The choking victim is alive through the combined efforts of both EMT's and the by stander but, the by stander needed to step back. *She was intoxicated*. If this went before a judge, the by stander would likely lose. Her intoxicated state might come back to bite her in the tush. Fire is being much more professional about the whole thing IMO.


Was she? Not only do we not know the actual EtOH level, we don't know how incapacitated she was. Nor do we know if she was actually wrong. We don't even know if the EMT hit her first.


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## Shishkabob

Heck she didn't even have to be drinking. The moment she was asked to step back, she had a legal obligation to step back or shed be interfering at the scene of an emergency.  Every place I know, that's an arrestable offense.

So whether or not she hit the EMT is a moot point. If she was asked to step back and didn't, she's in the wrong. Every single time.


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## rescue99

"We" read the atiicle which reported the police account of her ETOH level. The fact is, she was held until her level dropped so yeah, she was intoxicated. Wittness accounts has her being difficult and has her striking the EMT who had to finally moved her to gain access to the victim. Whatever help she was, the obnoxious woman, which is typical of many drunks, was an idiot. So much for being humble, eh?


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## Aidey

We just had a problem similar to this the other day. An intoxicated male got into a fight outside of a bar, tripped over the curb, and dislocated his ankle. A woman who identified herself as a nurse and appeared intoxicated kept trying to shake him awake while we were working on him. He was conscious, but she didn't seem to agree. 

Legally, in my system, the only person who can ignore an EMS persons directions on scene is a Doctor, and that is only if the doctor has said "I am taking responsibility for this patient" and they have to ride in and fill out a bunch of paperwork. If someone is asked to step back, no matter if they are a lay person or health care professional, and they refuse, they can be charged with interfering with an emergency crew.


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## Akulahawk

I'm going to critique this as if the events transpired in a manner somewhat as described.

Being that this is California, that RN (who didn't ID herself) is also guilty of PC 148. That is "148.  (a) (1) Every person who willfully resists, delays, or obstructs any public officer, peace officer, or an emergency medical technician...in the discharge or attempt to discharge any duty of his or her office or employment...shall be punished by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by imprisonment in a county jail."

RN's are limited to BLS care only in the field here, UNLESS they're specifically authorized for prehospital care at the ALS level (Flight RN or MICN) and unless I'm calling a flight team, or a licensed physician decides to take over... that's my patient. An Off-Duty RN or MICN that gets in my way will be warned, LEO called, warned again, and then arrested if the interfering behavior persists. 

An RN that had the BAC tested at 0.06%, if she drove, would/could be charged with a lower version of a DUI... commonly referred to as "wet and reckless". 

IF the DA decides to drop charges, that may have been dropped "in the interests of justice" and was probably done via prosecutorial discretion. That RN still has the arrest on her record, and the charge for what she was arrested for, and it will be seen in CLETS. She will have to explain this arrest to any future employer as she was, in fact, arrested, and not "un-arrested" where the arrest is converted to a detention.


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## grich242

Charges or no charges the problem of scene control and out of control bystanders can deteriorate rapdily and become dangerous for all involved, especialy the pt. THe medical control board in our area at one time had small cards printed for us to use on scene for medical professionals who have become a problem on scene. They were written in  leagelese and stated who could take control of a scene and requirements for doing so and the possible punishments for their unwelcomed interference. if i can find it I'll post it. It did really work well as most simply gave the card back and promptly left. I also work in an area where bystander interference is mind boggling where we on average get 8 to 10 "adult" family members walking inside someone house for a "routine medical". and even larger for an mva in the summer. One of the best things I've found is simple redirection to a  task away from the patient, "could you move that table?" "Hold the door open " you get the idea, and sadly we have had more than out share forcibly removed from scenes by pd most will never be charged even when their behavior escalates. As a matter of fact I was shoved twice this week on scene, and while in is both unacceptable and infuriating cooler heads do prevail. and the fastest way to make it worse is to escalate yourself, voice, posture etc. So before some of you start I'm not saying to stand there and take it or to put yourself in harms way ever, being proactive early on can help difuse a situation before it gets a chance to start.


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## Shishkabob

> She and her companion of 15 years, Bill Shields, both say Ohlott saved Mori’s life and both took her side in the controversy.




Anyone else find it funny that the person who was dead/ unconscious the whole time said the nurse was in the right?


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## Mountain Res-Q

Would it make a diference to anyone if she was not a current RN, rather, a former RN who no longer holds any license?

Would it make a difference if the patient was not actually in cardiac arrest (rather respiratory arrest) and was getting compressions from this bystander?

Would it make a difference if the reason the bystander was pushed out of the way was because she was doing compressions on someone with a pulse and the EMT could not make access to evaluate for a pulse?


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## MedicSqrl

Mountain Res-Q said:


> Would it make a diference to anyone if she was not a current RN, rather, a former RN who no longer holds any license?
> 
> Would it make a difference if the patient was not actually in cardiac arrest (rather respiratory arrest) and was getting compressions from this bystander?
> 
> Would it make a difference if the reason the bystander was pushed out of the way was because she was doing compressions on someone with a pulse and the EMT could not make access to evaluate for a pulse?



Your talking too much of that logic nonsense, we will have none of that in this thread.


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## VentMedic

> As for Gamez, Mi-Wuk-Sugar Pine Fire Chief Randy Miller will still not let him discuss the incident.


 
This is a very recent incident and there is still an ongoing investigation with more legal action that might be taken. 

The point here is one should be very careful what you tell people if you do not want what you say to end up on a public forum. This is not a random news article but rather one that was very well known to Mountain Res-Q who was told things that the public had not been in the media. Did the EMT involved in this incident want whatever he said to be posted for the public, including attorneys, the patient, the RN involved and the media to read about since he himself could not discuss it? Is it prudent right now for that FD and EMT or someone they had given "insider info" to start a bash thread against the RN right now? Or, has there been a betrayal of things said in confidence to Mountain Res-Q? It may also not go well for the EMT and others involved who were given an order from the chief not to discuss the incident.

Just remember anything you do or say, especially the screwups, could be posted by anyone including your partner on an open EMS forum or a blog for all to read about including the patient and/or their families. While it may or may not be admissible in court, it can still lead to more scrutiny by your peers and supervising officers at work.


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## Scout

Can people comment and prejudice an ongoing legal case on these forums?


Would it be best to move this into a theoretical scenario


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## VentMedic

Scout said:


> Can people comment and prejudice an ongoing legal case on these forums?
> 
> 
> Would it be best to move this into a theoretical scenario


 
Of course they can. However, most will remain anonymous or put it in a theorectical situation. Even on the more highly publicized news worthy articles, most have refrained from posting "insider info".

Again, the point here is what if you were involved in a serious incident and told not to talk about it but yet saw everything you said, maybe in the privacy of the fire station, posted on an internet forum? This thread is not anonymous with certain "insider" information made known from the first post. 

Granted this FD is volunteer and one might also view their expectations to privacy and professionalism differently. Hopefully they are still held to high standards for privacy issues involving patient care.


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## Scout

interesting, 


We'd get sacked in no time here and might face jail.


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## spinnakr

VentMedic said:


> In most states, including California, a BAL of 0.06 is not considered above the legal limit and the report did not state how much above 0.06 she was. She was also not charged with public intoxication.


I think it's fairly safe to say that if it took from 10pm to 6am for her BAC to drop below .06, then she was probably drunk.  Granted, I'm sure they weren't routinely checking it...  But just a thought.



VentMedic said:


> Is it possible the EMT involved could have approached the scene a little differently by doing a smooth take over of CPR from the citizen until ALS arrived?


Without being there this is impossible to answer - but I think it's probably the only question raised in this thread that you could actually improve patient care by answering.



alphatrauma said:


> If this nurse was under the influence, she had absolutely no business touching that patient.


I disagree.  Provided she was of sound mind (in a functional sense, not necessarily in a legal sense), why shouldn't she help out in this life-threatening situation?  It might expose her to some legal liability, but that's her own problem - and I for one won't pass judgement on the nurse for doing it.

HOWEVER, as was said, she needed to back off as soon as she was asked to.



VentMedic said:


> I also must add that discussing this incident, that just happened recently, on an open public forum which now comes up when this topic is googled may not be the wisest especially with the inflammatory statements and the "first hand insider info".  The EMT and the FD are not making statements for a reason and to have someone make comments for them may not make things go well either.


Wise advice.



Linuss said:


> Heck she didn't even have to be drinking. The moment she was asked to step back, she had a legal obligation to step back or shed be interfering at the scene of an emergency.  Every place I know, that's an arrestable offense.
> 
> So whether or not she hit the EMT is a moot point. If she was asked to step back and didn't, she's in the wrong. Every single time.


This for me is key.  While there are two sides to every story, and the responders' conduct might not have been perfect either, I think for this reason, she was at least partially in the wrong.

But I also don't think we have any business speculating about fault in a public forum on a potentially open legal case.


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## Akulahawk

Well, how about... using the information contained in the news article, I entered her name into the RN and LVN online verification systems... and it appears that she does have an RN license, and that license is in "Inactive" status. She has not met the CE requirements as of today. Her license will expire in a few months. The BRN hasn't (so far) released any info as to whether or not she's under discipline.

In any event, she may not practice as an RN in California until she renews her license. Because her license is inactive, she couldn't have supplied current ID as an RN. I'd have had to handle that situation as if she was just another bystander.


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## firecoins

Interesting case.  

First of all anyone with "insider accounts" should not speak with pending litigation might you get someone in trouble.  

Second, the nurse was in the right to provide first aid prior to arrival.  

Third, the nurse should have moved aside and allowed EMS to take over.  

Her being drunk was probably 1 of many factors.

Being an RN might be factor as they think they should control a scene. How many off duty EMS providers would start to command on call providers?  Probably happens more often and EMS providers should know better.


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## VentMedic

spinnakr said:


> I think it's fairly safe to say that if it took from 10pm to 6am for her BAC to drop below .06, then she was probably drunk. Granted, I'm sure they weren't routinely checking it... But just a thought.


 
One also has to consider she is 60 y/o and at that age, alcohol may not metabolize through the body as it did when she was 21.



Akulahawk said:


> Well, how about... using the information contained in the news article, I entered her name into the RN and LVN online verification systems... and it appears that she does have an RN license, and that license is in "Inactive" status. She has not met the CE requirements as of today. Her license will expire in a few months. The BRN hasn't (so far) released any info as to whether or not she's under discipline.
> 
> In any event, she may not practice as an RN in California until she renews her license. Because her license is inactive, she couldn't have supplied current ID as an RN. I'd have had to handle that situation as if she was just another bystander.


 
What does it matter to you if she was a nurse or not? She was acting as a citizen doing CPR. According to the article she DID NOT do any ALS procedures like start an IV or cut the person's throat open. She is close to retirement age and some people are referred to by their life's occupation regardless of how current their license is. 




firecoins said:


> Being an RN might be factor as they think they should control a scene. How many off duty EMS providers would start to command on call providers? Probably happens more often and EMS providers should know better.


 
Being this was a volunteer FD, we do not know (but Mountain Res-Q will probably enlighten us) how they were dressed, when they last shaved or even if they had also been "celebrating" New Year's when they got the call. While I do not agree with drinking while being on call, some volunteer FDs are very lax in that respect. In that location in California, who knows what might be acceptable out there. There have been some volunteers (and some paid) that have showed up at scene who I would be very reluctant to allow them to touch any member of my family until I ran their EMT(P) license through the state and got confirmation that they belonged to the picture on their DL especially knowing how many whacker nuts have tricked out POVs with enough supplies to stock two ambulances while being affiliated with no agency.

Of course, I can also give them the benefit of the doubt that they were clean shaving, sober and in a neatly pressed uniform with polished shoes. If no charges were filed, the nurse (former or whatever) did good citizen CPR and ALS arrived for ROSC with the patient having a good outcome, why all the bashing? Scenes will not always be perfect and there will be different point of views each time from everyone involved. EMS agencies, even at the FR and EMT level, should regularly have their calls reviewed by the Medical Director with all member present to see if everyone is in agreement that all calls were done perfectly. 

Since this incident also occurred in a small town or village (population less the 2000) with relatively few calls, this may have been blown out of proportion and one who works in a big city dealing daily with chaos or crowds might view this as a minor nuisance and blow it off.

But again, none of us were there.


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## Akulahawk

VentMedic said:


> Snip...
> What does it matter to you if she was a nurse or not? She was acting as a citizen doing CPR. According to the article she DID NOT do any ALS procedures like start an IV or cut the person's throat open. She is close to retirement age and some people are referred to by their life's occupation regardless of how current their license is.
> 
> ...Big Snip...
> 
> But again, none of us were there.


I don't care that she's acting as a citizen doing CPR. That's not the problem. It's actually commendable. What followed, once the on-duty personnel arrived is the problem. Since she WAS an active RN, and now she ISN'T, she should have known that she should have acted as a citizen and not gotten in the way of the on-duty personnel. Instead, somehow, things escalated and resulted in her being arrested for battery upon a Firefighter. (PC 242/243) That's a misdemeanor, and since a LEO didn't witness it, a private person's arrest had to have been made to take her into custody. A LEO can refuse to take custody, but didn't... so there quite likely had been some Probable Cause present, but the LEO couldn't have taken her into custody without the private person's arrest... yes, I know about this stuff, but not the details of this case.

Personally, I think she is VERY lucky that the DA's office dropped charges.


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## VentMedic

Akulahawk said:


> I don't care that she's acting as a citizen doing CPR. That's not the problem. It's actually commendable. What followed, once the on-duty personnel arrived is the problem. Since she WAS an active RN, and now she ISN'T, she should have known that she should have acted as a citizen and not gotten in the way of the on-duty personnel. Instead, somehow, things escalated and *resulted in her being arrested for battery upon a Firefighter. *(PC 242/243) That's a misdemeanor, and since a LEO didn't witness it, a private person's arrest had to have been made to take her into custody. A LEO can refuse to take custody, but didn't... so there quite likely had been some Probable Cause present, but the LEO couldn't have taken her into custody without the private person's arrest... yes, I know about this stuff, but not the details of this case.
> 
> Personally, I think she is VERY lucky that the DA's office dropped charges.


 
The title of this thread was made up by Mountain Res-Q. 

This was his title based on hearsay from the FD.
*Nurse Arrested after Assaulting EMT who Asked Her to "Step Back"* 

The article stated:


> reportedly interfering with an emergency medical technician.


 
Interfering is a broad term but it did not state she was arrested for assaulting or for battery.

She was NOT charged with drunkenness or battery or misdemeanor or anything. 

If this is true:


> Ohlott said the EMT shoved her aside while saying, “Get out of my way, ma’am, and let me do my job.”


Do you shove someone *doing CPR* out of the way?  Do you tell someone doing CPR to "Get out of my way"?  Do you consider that to be a proper approach for a citizen who is doing CPR?  Is that how you treat people? 



> “We concluded that it is equitable not to file charges in the interests of justice,” said Deputy District Attorney John Hansen, who not only reviewed a Sheriff’s Office report on the Dec. 31 incident, but had his own investigator question *all* participants and witnesses.


 
Is it possible the DA heard both sides of the story which we, including you, have not?

Have you never heard of a minor incident turning into a colossal story of horror before the shift is over?  Everyone has their version of what happened which mutates each time it is told and by the time it gets stated to the proper authorities, fact and fiction run together.  A good investigator can easily pick that up.  It is no different than when someone starts a thread based on hearsay and after 3 pages, some try to make this nurse out to be a very evil drunk.


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## Shishkabob

When a DA decides to not pursue charges, it means nothing more then they don't want to waste their time.  It has nothing to do with guilt or innocence.  


Just because she isn't being taken to court is not proof positive of her innocence.


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## Mountain Res-Q

3 Things:

1.  This happened on New Years.  I heard about it immediately.  I did not immediately post on it because the case was active.  However, once the charges were dropped, I posted.  Also, nothing I have said was confidential.  Because I know and have talked with FFs, Medics, and LEOs in the know, I have the same information revealed to the media and available to the public, but I have not filtered it to make a good story that sales papers.  The reason the EMT is not speaking out is because the Fire District has no reason to justify anything that is said negative about them.  The charges are dropped.  In their mind, the case is closed; they did their job and can be proud of that fact that while others were in need on New Years, they were in a possition to be the real ones that gave the patient a fighting chance.

2.  This is not my interpretation or just one side.  The FACTS come from Fire, EMS, LEOs, and bystanders ON SCENE.  If you want to take the word of an intoxiacated bystander over the Professional Responders, fine...  but even her story is in line with the EMT's... the only differnece is that she leaves out the part where she impeaded patient care.

3.  The Fire District (which serves 3 mountain communities and provides mutual aid to 75% of the county) is paid/volunteer.  The EMT was paid.  This District is very professional; shaven, sober, and in BDU's and District Issued Nomex Jackets.  Everyone here should know my adversion for Fire working EMS, but I can say that I respect the District FF's on this call.  Also, it should be noted that a second Engine (a State CALFIRE) Engine was on scene within 3 minutes of the assault, so it is not as if the "Volunteers" were a couple drunk hillbillies playing around.  Ambulance was on scene a few minutes latter with a Medic that I likewise respect.  You don't know them.  I do.  I trust them and the LEO's that I also work with.


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## alphatrauma

VentMedic said:


> Everyone has their version of what happened which mutates each time it is told...



I couldn't agree more

There is what we want to hear, what we choose to believe... and then there's the truth. 

My personal opinion:

- _There are only two activities one should engage in while under the influence. Sex and sleep... in that order_.

I just think it's bad business, and a huge liability risk to be initiating patient care/BLS or whatever, after drinking.


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## Sasha

> The charges are dropped. In their mind, the case is closed; they did their job and can be proud of that fact that while others were in need on New Years, they were in a possition to be the real ones that gave the patient a fighting chance.



So the bystander CPR that kept the patient circulating until EMS arrived had nothing to do with it? 

To me, where it says the EMT shoved the nurse, is also battery. I have never been nicely and politely shoved.


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## Mountain Res-Q

Sasha said:


> So the bystander CPR that kept the patient circulating until EMS arrived had nothing to do with it?
> 
> To me, where it says the EMT shoved the nurse, is also battery. I have never been nicely and politely shoved.



What part of "respiratory arrest... had a pulse" was not understood?  Last time I checked you do not do compressions on someone with a pulse.  That pulse might also be the reason why compressions were not continued by First Response or Medics... hence, a valid reason for the actual Medical Providers with a Duty to Act NEEDED to get to the patient rather than allow a Lay Person to dictate the course of Patient Care.

The next time an intoxicated bystander gets in the way of patient care and refuses to allow you to even get in close enough to evaluate an apparent arrest, ask yourself how far the "Please step aside" terminology continues before you are forced to do what is needed to do your job of being the actual life saver.  I know we are teaching lay people to not check for a pulse anymore; but if she was once a RN, shouldn't she have checked correctly?  Yet another reason why maybe a lowely EMT should have "pushed" his way in to care for the patient when they NEEDED REAL care?


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## VentMedic

Mountain Res-Q said:


> What part of "respiratory arrest... had a pulse" was not understood? Last time I checked you do not do compressions on someone with a pulse. That pulse might also be the reason why compressions were not continued by First Response or Medics... hence, a valid reason for the actual Medical Providers with a Duty to Act NEEDED to get to the patient rather than allow a Lay Person to dictate the course of Patient Care.
> 
> The next time an intoxicated bystander gets in the way of patient care and refuses to allow you to even get in close enough to evaluate an apparent arrest, ask yourself how far the "Please step aside" terminology continues before you are forced to do what is needed to do your job of being the actual life saver. I know we are teaching lay people to not check for a pulse anymore; but if she was once a RN, shouldn't she have checked correctly? Yet another reason why maybe a lowely EMT should have "pushed" his way in to care for the patient when they NEEDED REAL care?


 
You are really bent on bashing this nurse starting with your very first post and that includes the title you made up.  Is this personal?  Do you know this nurse or former nurse? Do you feel you must achieve some type of revenge for the FD since they are not talking public ally about it because the charges were dropped?  Have you taken it upon yourself to seek revenge and ruin this former nurse's reputation?

What else can an EMT do besides CPR?  Do you not know how to follow a few simple guidelines outlined in a CPR class to assume care for CPR being done by a citizen?   Pushing citizens out of the way who are doing CPR is not part of the guidelines.  

There is no way anyone could ever look at this situation objectively with the negative posts you have made against this nurse who cleared the airway (yes it supposedly started with "choking") and initiated CPR.  Do you understand the importance of clearing an airway quickly and the importance of bystander initiated CPR? 

Are you upset because the nurse is considered to have been part of saving this woman's life and you feel all the attention should go to the "heroes" at the FD?  Is this how they feel also?  

Let us look at your first post again:



> Nurse Arrested after Assaulting EMT who Asked Her to "Step Back"
> 
> Though I would post this and get everyone's opinion. This is local. Happened on New Years Eve. I have first hand insider info as I know one of the the Responders involved. Obviously, as always, the report is inaccurate, but here are the basics:
> 
> The patient's true medical condition was more than just a simple choking and arrest. This off duty nurse who never provided evidence to the responders on scene that she was an RN was intoxicated (barely) and was performing emergency care in keeping with what she thought was appropriate. Fire First Responders (an EMT and a MFR) arrived on scene and took over. Nurse was in the way and was hindering the FF's ability to properly assess and treat (they were both experienced and equipped for this). FF's repeatedly made it clear that the nurse was no longer needed; that she needed to step back and allow them to do their jobs, but the nurse continued to get in the way and *even made a few rude remarks about the EMT.* At this point the EMT had to physically push the nurse aside in order to gain access to the patient and do his job, saying, “Get out of my way, ma’am, and let me do my job.” Then the nurse hit the EMT across the face and "ran away" and out of sight of the EMT. *The EMT requested LE* and continued to do his job. LEOs arrived on scene and had to search for the nurse, who made an attempt hide from the LEOs. She was arrested for 241b, "assault on peace officer, firefighter, EMT, etc..." She was found to have a BAC of .06. Charges were dropped by the DA and now the Nurse wants to go after the Fire District because in her mind she was right and the EMT was wrong.
> 
> *Oh, and for the record, contrary to the report, the Nurse did not save the woman.* There was no spontaneous revival in an 80 y/o. Medics worked on the patient for some time and it was a code 3 transport, during which she was still not breathing adequately on her own.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> IMHO: *She was intoxicated. She never provided proof of who she was.* *She was not equipped to provided care past mouth to mouth.* She had no legal authority to assume control over EMS. She was hindering patient care. The EMT had the legal resposibility to provide care and maintain control over the scene. The nurse further hindered patient care by assaulting an EMT. *Hmmm... Charge her and throw the book at her. *




Did it ever occur to you that she didn't identify herself as a nurse because her license is expired and she is now a citizen doing CPR?

With all the FFs and restaurant patrons standing around, why did this one EMT have to call LE?  Didn't anyone else notice what was going on or think it was serious enough to call the police? 

You seem to want people to side with you for what?  Are you trying to get this lady arrested again?  Do you want to run her out of town?  

If the FD is letting it go, provided they are not putting you up to doing these posts, why are you still so hell bent on ruining this citizen's reputation after the charges have been dropped?   This seems to be a little more than "what would you do if someone hindered you" question. 

It is one thing to critique a random article but to purposely bash someone that you know personally or with a known identity and location to you with "insider info", especially in a very small town,  on a public forum is crossing a very fine line of professional and ethical behavior.


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## spinnakr

Mountain Res-Q said:


> I know we are teaching lay people to not check for a pulse anymore;



News to me.  Not to be blunt or anything, but citation please?


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## firecoins

> What else can an EMT do besides CPR?


  What else can a nurse do besides CPR? And would this differ being off duty? She is not going to do a surgical airway. 



> There is no way anyone could ever look at this situation objectively with the negative posts you have made against this nurse who cleared the airway (yes it supposedly started with "choking") and initiated CPR.  Do you understand the importance of clearing an airway quickly and the importance of bystander initiated CPR?


 If this is what the nurse did, thats great.  However once the EMS crew arrives, she does need to back down.  



> If the FD is letting it go, provided they are not putting you up to doing these posts, why are you still so hell bent on ruining this citizen's reputation after the charges have been dropped? This seems to be a little more than "what would you do if someone hindered you" question.


The article seems to indicate that the nurse is not letting it go either. The article she is probably doing some bashing of the FD/EMS system herself. It quotes her as saying she won't let this go.


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## VentMedic

firecoins said:


> What else can a nurse do besides CPR? And would this differ being off duty? She is not going to do a surgical airway.


 
Who said she did any advanced procedure?



firecoins said:


> If this is what the nurse did, thats great. However once the EMS crew arrives, she does need to back down.


No one here was there to see what actually happened. 



firecoins said:


> The article seems to indicate that the nurse is not letting it go either. The article she is probably doing some bashing of the FD/EMS system herself. It quotes her as saying she won't let this go.


 
Do you think it is going to help matters if members of this FD or its representative continue to bash her? I wonder if these same remarks made by Mountain Res-Q aren't being said all over town by him and his FF friends as well. Also, when this lady reads this thread, do you think she'll want to let it go then? Some pretty strong statements have been made against her here by someone who knows her and has the "insider info".  Again, this is not an anonymous article with anonymous poster initiating the thread.


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## Shishkabob

spinnakr said:


> News to me.  Not to be blunt or anything, but citation please?



 I've learned that in every BCLS, ACLS and PALS class I've taken.



And directly from the AHA themselves;

http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/102/suppl_1/I-22



> Lay rescuers will no longer be taught or expected to perform a pulse check.


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## JPINFV

spinnakr said:


> News to me.  Not to be blunt or anything, but citation please?





> *Differences in CPR for Lay Rescuers and Healthcare Providers*
> 
> Differences between lay rescuer and healthcare provider CPR skills include the following
> 
> 
> 
> *_Lay rescuers_ should immediately begin cycles of chest compressions and ventilations after delivering 2 rescue breaths for an unresponsive victim. Lay rescuers are not taught to assess for pulse or signs of circulation for an unresponsive victim.
> *_Lay rescuers_ will not be taught to provide rescue breathing without chest compressions.


- http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/reprint/112/24_suppl/IV-12.pdf


edit: Sniped by Linuss.


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## Shishkabob

I'm sneaky.


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## firecoins

VentMedic said:


> Who said she did any advanced procedure?


You seem to indicate thats all EMTs can do which begs the question of what you expect the RN to do.  




> No one here was there to see what actually happened.


 That is the point of the whole story.  Her accussed interference with the responding EMS crew.  That is why she was arrested to begin with. She was not arrested for doing CPR. She was not arrested for clearing the airway.  She was not arrested for doing compressions on a guy with a pulse. She was not arrested for having a BAC of .06. She was not arrested for being an RN and ex RN or a civilian. In fact, if she had not been arrested we would not be talking about this. 






> Do you think it is going to help matters if members of this FD or its representative continue to bash her?


 She is being bashed for her supposed interferance. If she wasn't accused of interfering we wouldn't be talking about it.  



> I wonder if these same remarks made by Mountain Res-Q aren't being said all over town by him and his FF friends as well.


they probably are. 



> Also, when this lady reads this thread, do you think she'll want to let it go then?


She already said she won't let it go so what difference does it make. If its true, I don't think the FD should let it go either.


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## VentMedic

firecoins said:


> You seem to indicate thats all EMTs can do which begs the question of what you expect the RN to do. [/quote}
> 
> Why are you saying the RN was doing more than she should?  Any citizen can become capable of CPR?   She did not start an IV, do a cric or heart surgery.
> 
> 
> 
> firecoins said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is the point of the whole story. Her accussed interference with the responding EMS crew. That is why she was arrested to begin with. She was not arrested for doing CPR. She was not arrested for clearing the airway. She was not arrested for doing compressions on a guy with a pulse. She was not arrested for having a BAC of .06. She was not arrested for being an RN and ex RN or a civilian. In fact, if she had not been arrested we would not be talking about this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An no charges were filed.  What part of that did you miss?
> 
> 
> 
> firecoins said:
> 
> 
> 
> She is being bashed for her supposed interferance. If she wasn't accused of interfering we wouldn't be talking about it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again, no charges were filed and it made headlines in a small town newspaper.  It didn't even make the EMS newswires.  If Mountain Res-Q didn't have a vendetta against this person, none of use would have heard about it.
> 
> 
> 
> firecoins said:
> 
> 
> 
> She already said she won't let it go so what difference does it make. If its true, I don't think the FD should let it go either.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again, no one on this forum knows the entire story and that probably includes Mountain Res-Q as well.  Isn't it possible that the DA learned a few things that the egos of the FFs didn't want to be made public?   They may not have even told Mountain Res-Q the entire story either or by the time they got back to the station this story had escalated and mutated into a colossal nurse bash just as other EMS tales go when they feel they didn't get recognized for their "save".
> 
> If the DA doesn't want to press charges what do you propose?  Vigilante justice and an act of violence against this 60 y/o former nurse by the EMT and the FFs?
Click to expand...


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## spinnakr

Linuss said:


> I've learned that in every BCLS, ACLS and PALS class I've taken.
> 
> 
> 
> And directly from the AHA themselves;
> 
> http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/102/suppl_1/I-22



Interesting.  I'm surprised.  Why is this?  Aren't we worried about injuries due to needless CPR?

For the record, this is not true of Red Cross.  I realize that red cross means close-to-nothing in the health provider field, but since we're talking about layperson CPR, it bears mentioning.  I cannot find a citation, but I had to take a Red Cross CPR course roughly a year ago, and their official curriculum still taught it.  (Then I subsequently took AHA for healthcare...)  Also, I suspect that more laypersons are trained by the ARC than the AHA, although this is PURELY speculation.

As for the original topic...  can we all agree that there are probably two sides to this story, and leave it at that?  As far as I'm concerned, anything else is purely speculative;  as much as I think that, given the _reported_ conduct of the nurse, I think she should be charged with obstruction of EMS personnel, this report may not be accurate.  Since I wasn't there, I simply don't know.  The only people who could attest to this are the civvie witnesses, and we don't have a single bystander statement to work from.


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## Seaglass

spinnakr said:


> Interesting.  I'm surprised.  Why is this?  Aren't we worried about injuries due to needless CPR?



I'm curious too. Could it be because they tend to check with their thumbs and fail to recognize pulselessness? I've noticed a lot of first-time CPR students doing that.


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## JPINFV

Basically AHA was finding that lay rescuers were taking too long to check a pulse and were often incorrect in their assessment. On the cost:benefits ratio, the cost of doing compressions on a patient who is simply not breathing is far outweighed by the benefit of doing CPR on a patient in cardiac arrest.


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## VentMedic

From the number of mispronounced deaths in the field, it seems some EMS providers aren't much better at finding a pulse.


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## JPINFV

VentMedic said:


> From the number of mispronounced deaths in the field, it seems some EMS providers aren't much better at finding a pulse.



I guess we need a CPR for physicians (maybe the AOA can devise an osteopathic CPR routine even), CPR for RNs, CPR for RTs, CPR for [insert allied health title here], and CPR for the community certification then. That way each group gets to be special!


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## CAOX3

I actually took an  EMD class and pre-arrival instructions for a patient not breathing you do not have the caller check for a pulse before initiating CPR.  Its easier to have a layperson determine breathing status then having them hunt for a pulse,  I guess their playing the percentages of most people who are not breathing probably wont have a pulse or at least not for long.

As far as who was at fault, who knows.  I know in my area if you lay your hands on any public safety officer you go to the clink and they dont drop the charges.  They make an example out of you, as they should.


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## firecoins

VentMedic said:


> An no charges were filed.  What part of that did you miss?


According to the article charges were filed and dropped. Charges being dropped is not proof that there was not an issue with interfearence with an EMS crew. 

I was recently pulled for speeding.  The officer never wrote me a ticket.  I was still speeding.   It wasn't proven in a court of law. I am sure the officer had a solid case.  



> Again, no charges were filed and it made headlines in a small town newspaper.  It didn't even make the EMS newswires.  If Mountain Res-Q didn't have a vendetta against this person, none of use would have heard about it.


 Yes small towns have news.  Its amazing.  Nothing happens unless its in an EMS magazine.  <_<


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## Seaglass

VentMedic said:


> From the number of mispronounced deaths in the field, it seems some EMS providers aren't much better at finding a pulse.



Wouldn't surprise me. I recently got reamed by my training officer for auscultating for an apical pulse after a scenario pt appeared to code. My defense were that our protocols say so, that I wasn't wasting time because I was also listening and feeling for breath, and that my hands sometimes shake when I get extremely tired and stressed. Could that be mistaken for a pulse? I've never found out, but I'm pretty sure it could...


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## VentMedic

firecoins said:


> Yes small towns have news. Its amazing. Nothing happens unless its in an EMS magazine. <_<


 
If we were to put every incident that happened in EMS on the front page of a newspaper or even the entire paper, there would be little room any other news. Did you happen to see the EMS news wire lately? There's a GA Paramedic accused of rape. An ambulance in Massachusetts blew a red light without the siren on and hit a car injuring its driver. A NC Paramedic was arrested for drug possession.

This article in CA at least had a good patient outcome and it is a shame that the FD can't be the bigger advocate for a peaceful resolution instead on going on a public bash campaign against the former nurse.


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## Mountain Res-Q

So, I posted an EMS related article, as many do here, and somehow, I have a grudge against a person I do not even know?  LOL...  whatever.  The facts are the facts.  RN or not, she interfered with patient care by refusing to step back when EMS arrived.  I have no beef with her other than the fact that I HATE the fact that while charges where dropped on her (not agreeing with that, but whatever) she seems bent on attacking the FD because she disagrees (despite being intoxicated and providing improper medical care) with everyone’s version of the facts, including Fire, Deputies, and the Sheriff.  I posted this story as an "EMS Related Story" just as others do often and posted the actual details that are left out by the Media.  My opinions are also my own, but I do believe that if an Off Duty EMT was the one that was providing inadequate care and then refused to move out of the way when EMS arrived, the amount of Whacker Attacks and horror over the under-educated "super hero" EMTs in the world would be great, especially from some of the burnout "educators" here.  Again... whatever...  I was interested to see if being a RN (or former) would influence peoples thoughts on this...  Interesting results I must say.  Oh, and when, in all my posts was the idea that I view the FD as "Heroes" picked up?  LOL...  please...    I make fun of one of the FFs involved everyday for being a FF (in good fun)... doesn't mean I don't respect my fellow responders as long as they earn it...

spinnakr, ARC guidelines are drawn directly from AHA.  Trust me, I teach ARC Lay Responder CPR...  No pulse checks.  ABC's consist of Airway, Breathing, Signs of Life.  The only time pulses are checked now are in infants for Lay Responders.  For Professional Rescuer (or Health Care Provider) CPR, Pulses are still checked (at least until it is discovered that like the Public, EMTs can't find a pulse either ).  I believe the point here was that an RN is required to have CPRO (or similar) and should know how to check a pulse...  otherwise, she is a Lay Person... regardless... "Thank You Ma'am... we'll take over."  At that point I would step aside, and in similar situations, I have (as we all would).  Even this lowly EMT knows enough to know when to step aside, pat myself on the back, and let the Legally Charged Responders step in... something the Exalted RN's might not know...  hmmm...  <_< 

Oh, and how is the FD "bashing" the former RN?  They cooperated with the Sheriff's Office, DA, and the Chief spoke to the Media and stated the facts of the incident when asked.  It is the former RN that is on the warpath to slay the "evil" underfunded FD...  My "bashing" (opinion that he RN should have faced the charges) is that from a a concerned member of the local EMS community.


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## VentMedic

This was your first post and you made it very personal as well as giving out patient information that was not released quite possibly due to privacy reasons and out of respect for the patient. This should also be a lesson for those who like to talk about your patients with others. Be careful as it could end up in the wrong ears.

You also had incorrect information in that the "nurse" did not identify herself as a nurse. She was correct not to if she no longer held a current license. 



Mountain Res-Q said:


> Though I would post this and get everyone's opinion. *This is local.* Happened on New Years Eve. *I have first hand insider info as I know one of the the Responders involved.* Obviously, as always, *the report is inaccurate, but here are the basics:*
> 
> The* patient's true medical condition was more than just a simple choking and arrest.* This *off duty nurse* who never provided evidence to the responders on scene that she was an RN was intoxicated (barely) and was performing emergency care in keeping with what she thought was appropriate.
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> IMHO: She was intoxicated. She never provided proof of who she was. She was not equipped to provided care past mouth to mouth. She had no legal authority to assume control over EMS. She was hindering patient care. The EMT had the legal resposibility to provide care and maintain control over the scene. The nurse further hindered patient care by assaulting an EMT. Hmmm... Charge her and throw the book at her.


 
Let me repeat this:

This article in CA at least had a good patient outcome and it is a shame that the FD can't be the bigger advocate for a peaceful resolution instead on going on a public bash campaign against the former nurse.  I say the FD because they gave you all the "insider information" for your thread on this forum.


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## spinnakr

Mountain Res-Q said:


> spinnakr, ARC guidelines are drawn directly from AHA.  Trust me, I teach ARC Lay Responder CPR...


Well first, this is an appeal to authority - a logical fallacy - and frankly, you're a semi-anonymous online personality.  Therefore, I _don't_ trust you.  I'm far too much of a skeptic to do something like that.

Second, I'm telling you:  1 year ago, I was instructed by the ARC, in a layperson capacity, to check pulse.  It is possible that this wasn't to ARC guidelines; however, if it weren't, then another problem is raised - different instructors are teaching different things.

Third, can we all just let it go?  I'm pretty sure that everything that can be said on the matter has been, and everything left to say is simply for emotional effect or personal gratification.


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## Mountain Res-Q

spinnakr said:


> Well first, this is an appeal to authority - a logical fallacy - and frankly, you're a semi-anonymous online personality.  Therefore, I _don't_ trust you.  I'm far too much of a skeptic to do something like that.
> 
> Second, I'm telling you:  1 year ago, I was instructed by the ARC, in a layperson capacity, to check pulse.  It is possible that this wasn't to ARC guidelines; however, if it weren't, then another problem is raised - different instructors are teaching different things.
> 
> Third, can we all just let it go?  I'm pretty sure that everything that can be said on the matter has been, and everything left to say is simply for emotional effect or personal gratification.



First... fine... don't trust me... trust the ARC, which produce those nice Instructor Manuals that I have right here...  Frankly, based on your posts, I don't trust you either... big deal, I am sure we will both deal with that pain...

Second, I am telling you, Pulse Checks have not been taught in close to 5 years in Lay Person... so, ya, I would question that Instructor who is required (if they are actual ARC Instructors) to teach by ARC Guidlines or lose their Instructor Authorization.

Third, Let what go?  You asked a question that was based on my post; a question that said, "You do not know what you are talking about when it comes to pulse checks."  So I responded, as did others...  Chill man... seriously...


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## MedicSqrl




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## rescue99

spinnakr said:


> Well first, this is an appeal to authority - a logical fallacy - and frankly, you're a semi-anonymous online personality.  Therefore, I _don't_ trust you.  I'm far too much of a skeptic to do something like that.
> 
> Second, I'm telling you:  1 year ago, I was instructed by the ARC, in a layperson capacity, to check pulse.  It is possible that this wasn't to ARC guidelines; however, if it weren't, then another problem is raised - different instructors are teaching different things.
> 
> Third, can we all just let it go?  I'm pretty sure that everything that can be said on the matter has been, and everything left to say is simply for emotional effect or personal gratification.



You were instructed wrong by an instructor who perhaps didn't agree or just didn't keep up. Layperson pulse checks went out in 05. The CPR guidelines we follow are those recommended by the WHO (world health organization, not an old 70's band!) and other evidence based entities. ARC has to follow the same guidelines as AHA, ASHI, ESCI and everyone else. 

Not sure it really matters. It (the situation) was a bit out of hand. Good thing the patient wasn't lost in the scuffle. Letting it go sounds reasonable.


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## greenmountains

"Is the scene safe?" is supposed to be the first question asked in each section of the practical. If it isn't you are supposed to stand back and not contribute another body to be dealt with...your own.
The scene wasn't safe, obviously.


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## SandpitMedic

I love time travel.

We hit 88 miles per hour on this one!


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## Summit




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## JPINFV

greenmountains said:


> "Is the scene safe?" is supposed to be the first question asked in each section of the practical. If it isn't you are supposed to stand back and not contribute another body to be dealt with...your own.
> The scene wasn't safe, obviously.



Yep... if there's anyone in the way, you don't even ask them to move, you just stand back. Remind me again, which fantasy land do you work in?


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## greenmountains

JPINFV said:


> Yep... if there's anyone in the way, you don't even ask them to move, you just stand back. Remind me again, which fantasy land do you work in?



A world in which I would get fired for having to push aside a drunk to aid a patient. She was apparently told to stand aside and did not. Done.
Standing orders: call the freaking police. Done.
I would not even get workman's comp for an injury when I ignored danger.

Get yourself a gun...or a clue...or some dignity.


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## OnceAnEMT

greenmountains said:


> Get yourself a gun...or a clue...or some dignity.



Funny. That part wasn't ever in any standing orders I had.


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## chaz90

greenmountains said:


> A world in which I would get fired for having to push aside a drunk to aid a patient. She was apparently told to stand aside and did not. Done.
> Standing orders: call the freaking police. Done.
> I would not even get workman's comp for an injury when I ignored danger.
> 
> Get yourself a gun...or a clue...or some dignity.



I'm not sure this necro thread on a different topic is really the place to discuss this. Are you implying that if a random drunk in a bar was impeding your access to a critical patient you would simply call PD and go wait in your ambulance? I'm not into getting involved in avoidable confrontations, but this certainly seems to be a case where it would be appropriate to strongly insist the bar patron move aside, and perhaps gently move her out of the way if it becomes necessary.


Also, let's be real about this. "Scene safe, BSI" is just another one of the tired EMS education cliches we continue to churn out. Repeating that as your mantra to yourself, your partner, or dispatch does absolutely nothing to guarantee safety on any of our calls. Being conscious of scene safety is one thing, but assuming every mildly uncooperative drunk is getting ready to shiv you and your partner seems to be taking it a bit far.


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## JPINFV

greenmountains said:


> Get yourself a gun...or a clue...or some dignity.


A gun? Really? You're going to draw down on a drunk person in a bar?


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## Medic Tim

greenmountains said:


> A world in which I would get fired for having to push aside a drunk to aid a patient. She was apparently told to stand aside and did not. Done.
> 
> Standing orders: call the freaking police. Done.
> 
> I would not even get workman's comp for an injury when I ignored danger.
> 
> 
> 
> Get yourself a gun...or a clue...or some dignity.




I don't even know what to say to this besides wtf.


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## Medic Tim

JPINFV said:


> A gun? Really? You're going to draw down on a drunk person in a bar?




Perfect example of why ems should not be armed.


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## JPINFV

Medic Tim said:


> Perfect example of why ems should not be armed.




I've said it before... seat belts and treadmills would save more providers than knives or guns.


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## Angel

JPINFV said:


> I've said it before... seat belts and treadmills would save more providers than knives or guns.



i agree


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## WTEngel

Congrats on residency JP. I'm starting OMS-1 this august up in virginia. Looking forward to filling in the checklist under my signature just like you did one of these days!


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## mycrofft

Link is now a 404.


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## waaaemt

greenmountains said:


> A world in which I would get fired for having to push aside a drunk to aid a patient. She was apparently told to stand aside and did not. Done.
> Standing orders: call the freaking police. Done.
> I would not even get workman's comp for an injury when I ignored danger.
> 
> Get yourself a gun...or a clue...or some dignity.



I think the name says it all: GREEN!


----------

