# OFF DUTY+ a real emergency.



## TgerFoxMark (Feb 28, 2008)

Now i Have a Question... I am a Basic. I have all my own equipment (I am a bit of a Wacker, POV has lights, whole 9yrds) My partner and i have gone around and around on this... What Can I Use of my equipment if I am off duty and dealing with something that happened right in front of me? Heart Attack, MVA... ECT.  (ok i will be honest... My personal vehicle is an 1993 GMC Medium Duty Ambulance, and is FULLY Equipped with everything we have on the work rig and Then some.)

Yes, I know i am NUTS!


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## el Murpharino (Feb 28, 2008)

It depends on the state, but as a general rule, good samaritan laws state while you don't need to stop and render any aid, you cannot provide care above the level you're trained at if you do render care.  The second part of this, to paraphrase NYS DOH article 30 - You will be liable for any injuries the patient suffers if it is a result of your gross negligence.

This site has a link of state specific statues regarding good samaritan laws
http://www.momsteam.com/alpha/features/cardiac_awareness_center/good_samaritan_laws.shtml


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## paramedix (Feb 28, 2008)

I don't think this will really be applicable to your situation where you are located. I am operational in South Africa and here our paramedics and EMT's do assist whenever they arrive first on the scene of an accident or emergency. Almost the same as our off duty police reservists.

I think we have this unwritten rule that we have to assist, almost ask yourself the question "do you want emergency care if you were the victim?"

Here we can register with any malpractice institution that covers you when you are on duty as well as off duty. As long as you practice within your scope of practice and protocols. Reasonable man situation...

If I witness and accident, I will stop and try to assist WITHOUT compromising my own safety! (Provided I have equipment with me). Our Basic Ambulance Assistance have to work under supervision, but can render life saving care whenever needed.

You must be aware of the consequences and the risk you are taking when you assist on an emergency scene.

The most important of all.... DO NOT COMPROMISE YOUR OWN SAFETY!!!!


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## ccems644 (Feb 28, 2008)

Tger,

      Sounds like to me you enjoy what you do. I may be wrong (I say the following based on where I live) but as long a s you stay within you scope of practice, call for "on Call" EMS unit and don't try to haul em to the hospital your probably not gonna get into trouble. I have lights and siren on my POV and am not afraid to use them. I carry my EMS duty bag with me at all times. I feel I am an EMT 24-7-365. (I feel the same for the Fire Dept I am on. I carry my Fire gear also.)
People in your community should be grateful to have a dedicated person like you living there...


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## BossyCow (Feb 28, 2008)

Tiger, 
You will need to review your agencies policies and procedures and work in accordance with those guidlines. I would be concerned with the expectation that is created in the minds of the pt.s and bystanders when a non-agency affiliated 'ambulance' shows up on a scene. 

You say you have 'everything' your department rig carries. Are you carrying O2?.... a defib ?....airway adjuncts?... Backboards and straps?... C-Collars?... traffic control signs and equipment? 

An agency rig is subjected to regular maintenance and check offs. It is also protected by the agencies liability insurance. What happens when you treat a patient with your lovely little bag of tricks but something fails? Your agency is going to leave you hanging in the breeze created by the rush of passing lawyers.


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## reaper (Feb 28, 2008)

Most Good Sam laws let you preform BLS only. Does not matter if you are a medic. If you preform anything that is considered invasive, then you are practicing medicine without a license. You will be held liable and could lose your license. You are not under medical control when you are on your own!

Bandage wounds, hold c-spine and wait for a unit to arrive. That is your best bet.


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## KEVD18 (Feb 28, 2008)

if your serious about your set up, your out of your mind in every sense of the phrase. your setting your self up for all kinds of trouble. you realize the if you pull up on the scene of an incident in an ambulance, jump out and render care you are representing that your on duty eith an agency of some sort and opening yourself up to monumental amounts liability. i hope everything turns out ok for you but i see it going up in flames.

as far as off duty scope of practice, basic first aid/cpr only. no cspine, no iv's, monitor, drugs(even asa, o2, etc). i dont know where you live, but in ma emts operate as an extension of their services medical director. all of your bls skills are under standing orders from your services md, but are only in effect when your working under the flag of your company(paid or unpaid). your not covered off duty. which means that 95% of emt skills cant be performed off duty. 

i have a feeling your going down in flames. i hope you realize the stupidity of your actions. its insanity.


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## rescuepoppy (Feb 28, 2008)

*off Duty + A Real Emergency*

Tiger sounds like you have a bad case of the whacker syndrome going on there. Seriously I think the first thing you should do is to empty out the personal ride and do something to show that it is only for display purposes you are setting yourself up for some real problems with it. Take it from an older hand if you want to stop and give aid then by all means do it but remeber the saying KISS just do the basics, airway, control bleeding, stabilize c spine and give comfort stay well within scope of training. Dont give some lawyer extra ammo to work with


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## rgnoon (Feb 28, 2008)

> (ok i will be honest... My personal vehicle is an 1993 GMC Medium Duty Ambulance, and is FULLY Equipped with everything we have on the work rig and Then some.)
> 
> Yes, I know i am NUTS!



I SINCERELY hope that you are just a collector and that this truck is not your daily driver. 

...wow...just WOW.


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## SwissEMT (Feb 28, 2008)

You need help.


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## BossyCow (Feb 28, 2008)

I think the answer to your first question would be, you can use and do whatever you are willing to assume the liability for in court, with an atty you pay for yourself. 

You are setting up an expectation of a certain level of service. What kind of identifying marks are on your 'ambulance'? Does it say "Ambulance"? If it has the word "Ambulance" on it anywhere, you will need to conform to the local state licensing requirements for an ambulance. If it doesn't, you are treading a very fine line between enthusiasm and obsession.


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## TgerFoxMark (Feb 29, 2008)

Yeah, it meets all the requirements here in Indiana. It was only taken out of service last year. and no, it doesnt have the badging anymore other than the star of life.  (Daily drivers for me are a 1998 Dodge Dakota 4X4 and a 1992 Camaro RS, both have lightbars and sirens)


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## Outbac1 (Feb 29, 2008)

I'm sorry if this offends you, but I've got to call it like I see it. I think your heart is in the right place as you obviously want to help people. BUT You've got to grow up and take this seriously as a professional or get out of the business. You are setting your self up for a major disaster. If you continue it will be people like you who give the professionals a bad name. It's hard enough to convince people that Paramedicine is a profession with out "a bit of a Wacker" showing up to prove their point. 

  If you are serious about helping people, get educated to a Paramedic standard, work for a reputable employer, help people who need you and positively promote the profession.


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## rgnoon (Feb 29, 2008)

TgerFoxMark said:


> Yeah, it meets all the requirements here in Indiana. It was only taken out of service last year. and no, it doesnt have the badging anymore other than the star of life.  (Daily drivers for me are a 1998 Dodge Dakota 4X4 and a 1992 Camaro RS, both have lightbars and sirens)



Phew...For a second I pictured you driving an ambulance to work and such.

So, out of curiousity, do you take the ambulance to shows, and if so what kind of reaction does it get?


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## KEVD18 (Feb 29, 2008)

so if your not driving it daily, why do you have it? do you do "safety patrols" driving around looking for accident and such? i mean really, what the point of owning a stocked rescue?


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## milhouse (Mar 1, 2008)

no offense man but are you nuts i just did a google search on your ambulance to see what it looks like and yeah...... 

like everyone else has said i think your setting yourself up for problems. and plus things expire. your suppose to have license's for things so what are you going to do when you pull up on scene and some big wig from the health department happens to see you there and after the call he jumps in your rig and asks you for your license's ok im pretty sure you'll have to have them since it is an active ambulance or atleast you are wanting it to be. just something to think about.

now i could understand wanting to have an old ambulance but not for what you want it as. i could see maybe restoring it to perfect condition and taking it to shows. or even making a patty wagon type thing so you and your friends could party in or so that you could take it to like a tail gating party or something like that but not to be driving around looking for an emergency. because even if you dont have ambulance plastered on the side of it people see the light bars the star of life and they dont know that it isnt an "ambulance". so again i think your setting yourself up for problems 

now im sure your gonna do what you want but please take what every one has said to heart. and if nothing else call the health department in your area tell them what you want to do and what kind of problems would you fall under.

heres the image that i found. just to give you guys an idea. and also could you please post a picture of what it looks like thanks


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## Ridryder911 (Mar 1, 2008)

Got malpractice insurance and are you bonded and licensed as an ambulance in Indiana or that local community? Not from there, but I do know their EMS Bureau and that are they serious enough to protect their citizens from whackers! 

Sorry, *you have crossed the line*! Obviously, it is time for a reality check. I am sure you are probably in close proximity of breaking some state and local codes and laws. Impersonating emergency services is a very serious offense! Even if you are a EMT or whatever level then you know better! What are you going to do, when that patient sues you for equipment failure, damage, etc. Can we (& the public) be assure that you and equipment are up to certification and state EMS standards? 

Leave the patient care to the professionals and to the community that provides it. If you want to have an EMS business, then do it the right way and set up a private business and follow the protocol for such. Unless you are willing to donate the equipment to a local community, etc. then you are self absorbed in this "whackerism". 

Personally, I hope they prosecute your arse for such behavior. You described that you have a "partner" so it is apparent your in EMS. You know better (or at least should). Seriously, it is your type that is a disgrace to the profession of EMS. Get over yourself that you are so special! Again, if you truly are concern and consider yourself a professional then donate it to a community that needs it and can use it, then allow the EMS Division to be assure it meet the standards. 

R/r 911


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## MSDeltaFlt (Mar 1, 2008)

Man, I've seen a lot of people like this.  But to make sure I'm not mistaken, I'll add this:

Are you a volunteer?  If you are then what you are doing is an investment; expensive investment, but an investment nonetheless.  To each his own.  You'd be an odd duck, but go with God.

If you are not a volunteer, here's where I start to get concerned.

You said you are not ALS.  Depending on the state, if you show up on scene, you can be "in the way".  If you are in the way badly enough, you CAN impede the public servants in the performance of their duties, which MIGHT get you arrested.  I don't live there.  I don't know you from Joe's housecat.  Therefore, I do not fully know the situation.  I'm just advising you that this might be a very tricky area to be.

It sounds like you might have a co-dependent personality in the form of a "hero complex".  If left unchecked, it can get you into a lot of trouble.

God, I hope I'm wrong.

With respect.


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## Ridryder911 (Mar 1, 2008)

ccems644 said:


> Tger,
> 
> Sounds like to me you enjoy what you do. I may be wrong (I say the following based on where I live) but as long a s you stay within you scope of practice, call for "on Call" EMS unit and don't try to haul em to the hospital your probably not gonna get into trouble. *I have lights and siren on my POV and am not afraid to use them.* I carry my EMS duty bag with me at all times. I feel I am an EMT 24-7-365. (I feel the same for the Fire Dept I am on. I carry my Fire gear also.)
> People in your community should be grateful to have a dedicated person like you living there...




I highly suggest that you review and check to see you are really a EMT 24/7. Are you really covered by the city 24/7 for malpractice? As well, anytime one is not representing an agency they are not above a MFR. Unless one has a license to practice medicine. 

Far as ..."not afraid to use them".. scares me. It is this type of attitude that we have discussed upon why it is shameless to allow such. What real authority do you have and truthfully what difference are your really going to make by arriving 1 minute earlier? I can argue that you probably place more people (including yourself) into more danger than helping.

R/r 911


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## LIFEGUARDAVIDAS (Mar 2, 2008)

Tger,

After reading all the different replies this is what I have to say about the issue:

-About having your own equipment... I think that as long as it is equipment used to provide care within your level of training and certification AND it is legal to own it (as a private citizen) in your state: it's fantastic. In today's world (more in your country than anywhere else) there are too many lawyers. I support your enthusiasm and passion. (Once again, as long as you obtained it legally, have all the permits and or licenses needed /required by law).

-About using your own equipment while off duty... I think it is outstanding that you usually carry it (or part o it) in your POVs. Now, if you encounter yourself in an incident while off duty, first activate the emergency system and make sure the proper authorities (LE, EMS, Fire, etc.) are on their way. If this happens in an urban or semi urban area where emergency services respond within proper response-time there is no need for you to provide care beyond the REAL basic stuff (call for help, scene safety, ABC, reassuring the victim, crowd management, etc.). Not getting involved in further care has many reasons besides the legal ones, among them is that by the time you start it (in urban / semi-urban areas) EMS will be already on scene and you will be then in their way. In rural, partially isolated or isolated areas again, activate the emergency system making sure the professionals on duty are on their way. As long as you're trained and certified provide REAL basic care. If you know for a fact that EMS response will be delayed or compromised and you could represent the difference between life and death to the victim(s) then providing care within your training and certification is not a negative thing at all. 

My advise about the above, be familiar about the legal considerations involved with your training and certification while both on duty and off duty. 

-About having a POV that has the unmistakenly shape/design of an ambulance... One thing is having it as a collector or an emergency vehicles fan. Another one is using it daily for day to day things "just in case" something happens on the way and you're the first one on scene. Then make sure you have done enough in order to not confussing the public. Meaning: think of those members of the public that have no clue about emergency services and how they would react upon seeing your vehicle at an incident (Why an ambulance looks like that? Why its driver isn't in uniform? Why the agency / jurisdiction is not mentioned on it? Why even if it was the first vehicle on scene it wasn't used for Pt transport? etc. etc.). 

Some recommendations about the above (assuming you are not interested in having a private ambulance company)... paint it in colors which are unusual for ambulances (including the star of life -what about a star of life in multiple colors?), have "OUT-OF-SERVICE ambulance" written somewhere on each side of it, etc. If your area is rural, partially isolated or isolated and you will use your POV on a "regular" basis, what about becoming part of a CERT (Community Emergency Response Team) or similar programs?

-About transporting a pt. in your POV... (I know you haven't mentioned it but in some replies the possibility was mentioned) I recommend you not to. Not only due to the legal considerations (not an emergency vehicle, you being off duty, what would happen if you get involved in an MVA, illegal imprisonment, kidnaping, etc. etc.) your intension might be the normal and right one but "too many lawyers in the world." Talking about laws... the main reason why we, as professionals, should respect them, follow them and enforce them -whenever possible and applicable- is because the law -ideally- treats everyone equally. Meaning: you might be a passionate, well-intended and responsible individual, HOWEVER if the law allows you to do it, it could allow anybody to do so and other individuals might not be like you. [Also, if you drive it who will ride in the back. -I guess it will be unlikely for you to have your partner while off duty].

-Finally, be sure by all means you are not (unintentionally) impersonating an emergency service worker. This, as R/r911 mentioned, is a serious offense. No matter if you are one at your job, it is a whole different thing when off duty. Check with your employer's legal dept. or with the state heath dept. Nothing wrong with being proud of your job or profession. How many people in today's modern world could say they love what they do? Yes, we are lucky. HOWEVER, one thing is wearing a shirt that mentions what you do, another is wearing a uniform while off duty. -Apply that to POVs. A bumper sticker and a magnetic strobe light is one thing, a former official emergency vehicle with a light bar is another way different one. 

In my case, I am a professional lifeguard that except when in the US (4 months a year) I live and work in Argentina. Here both public lifeguard services and private sector employers never provide their lifeguards with proper equipment (mainly due to huge budget problems). In my case I provide services as a self-employed individual and I am planning to create a private company to provide such services in the future. I have my own equipment which with a big effort I have been purchasing very gradually. I do carry it to work in my POV and when off duty I carry part of it 24/7. So far it is not advanced equipment (jump trauma bag, pocket masks, first aid stuff...). I am planning to purchase an AED, BVM and O2 soon. I would only use it while off duty in the case I am in a rural, partially isolated or isolated area since in Argentina EMS is in a chaotic situation. 

In Argentina there is a federal law that states off duty lifeguards are the only ones that have a duty to act in case there is a person in trouble in the water. Same as good samaritan laws, some cover you based on your "good intentions", according to other ones you must act. Be familiar with yours. (Also, don't forget to obtain consent before treating someone -EVEN when off duty).

I also remember watching on People & Arts once a show about a private company that cleans crime scenes after they are no longer part of an investigation (in order to provide a service to realtives and property owners). Anyways, the person that created it came up with the idea while working as an EMT and wondering who has to clean the mess... He bought a former ambulance (Ford E-350). He did leave the side lights but removed the light bar and painted it all plain / uniform white. [[JUST SOMETHING I REMEMBERED WHEN I READ THE THREAD]]

Well... Good luck and don't take unnecessary -legal- risks!

Saludos from Patagonia,


Guri


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## eggshen (Mar 2, 2008)

Gotta be a joke right? Your own ambulance? For real?

Egg


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## enjoynz (Mar 2, 2008)

paramedix said:


> I don't think this will really be applicable to your situation where you are located. I am operational in South Africa and here our paramedics and EMT's do assist whenever they arrive first on the scene of an accident or emergency. Almost the same as our off duty police reservists.
> 
> I think we have this unwritten rule that we have to assist, almost ask yourself the question "do you want emergency care if you were the victim?"
> 
> ...



Ditto to all of this!
In New Zealand we are deemed on duty, if we are off duty and come across any situation where some one needs our help, period!
Which is a the protocol of our Ambulance service. 
I carry a (very) basic First Aid kit in the car,with gloves,a face shield and a few dressings.

Cheers Enjoynz


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## Ops Paramedic (Mar 4, 2008)

*Off duty + real emergency*

There is life outdie the EMS.


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## BossyCow (Mar 4, 2008)

Ops Paramedic said:


> There is life outdie the EMS.



Well, at least there is for some of us. Others.. not so sure!


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## uscgk9 (Mar 4, 2008)

Well how about putting a picture of this thing on here. 

I too have a few questions. Is your agency total volunteer? Does your area cover a large rural area? How old are you? What level of care does your agency normally provide? Does your agency allow for a response with your POV? What do your friend carry in thier POVs?

I live in a rural area that is paid during the day and total volunteer at night and on weekends. Our volunteers are authorized to proceed directly to the scene as long as someone is getting the ambulance. Many of our ALS providers carry basic equipment in their POVs. Gloves, bandages, dressings, oral airways and a BVM. I carry the same equipment and also have an AED. We don't carry anything such as O2 or any spinal immobilization equipment. In our area it would not be uncommon for 20 minutes to go by before an ambulance gets on the road and another 10-15 before it arrives on scene. If we are close, we may choose to go to the scene and wait for the unit to arrive. If this is close to your case than your trying to do a good thing, you’re just a little over the top.

Good luck and listen to what is being said here. We probably have over 100 years of combined EMS experience and have "been there, done that"


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## Tincanfireman (Mar 4, 2008)

Probably doesn't need to be repeated, but... You are treading an extremely fine line between good-heartedness and obsession, as well as opening yourself up to some incredible litigation risk.  In addition, any organization you belong to is also going to suffer if something negative happens during an incident (I'm not saying it's right or wrong, it's just the way things work sometimes).  You can go from "dedicated volunteer" to "public nuisance" quite literally in the time it takes to make a wrong decision.  Please reconsider your mode of travel and take a few minutes to take a hard look at what you are doing.


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## Ridryder911 (Mar 4, 2008)

I think we should evaluate the situation. Can one imagine a EMT or RN obtaining equipment and opening their own clinic (medical care on wheels, since he cannot transport)? Realistically, it is about the same. What we would think then? We would not realize they are really operating or practicing medicine without a license. 

Why do we in EMS presume "we" actually have the right to provide care off duty? Really, if one was really concerned; would he not donate the unit & equipment to a needy area? Again, ego appears to stand in the way, that only "he" can provide the service. Good thing for him (apparently no-one else could do this) the world is safe. That is pretty big issue to fill. 

Want to see professionalism? Can one imagine if nurses or physicians started performing exams, pelvics, and other exams in a personal van? Yep, only typical EMT thinking....

R/r 911


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## uscgk9 (Mar 4, 2008)

R/r911.....sounds like this one kinda rubbed you the wrong way. Someday EMS will be considered a profession. I just hope I'm not in a nursing home before it happens. I shake my head every day when I hear the stupid stuff the other volunteers in my area do or don't do. Wish I could wake up and be Medical Director for the day. I'd have to go to staples and buy more Pink Slips.


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## TgerFoxMark (Mar 5, 2008)

The unit more often gets used as a first aid stand at the local drag strip, and or other community type events. The rig has been used in local parades, it usally ended up being hot out and some of the marchers would sit on the bumper for a bit. The whole thing is used one way in one area and another way in another.

As to the Paid/Volly thing. I dont want to start the war on this, I live and work in a Paid area, but also run Volly in a nearby rual area as a volly.  (Indiana is weird, you can go from City to Farms in less than a mile in places)

Yeah, im a bit nutty, but in my Volly area, it tends to be better than what we have, and the rig is used in the City for community events...
The older rigs may not be dead yet, why let them rust in a junkyard.

As for when its in transport between area, the lightbars are covered.. (Look at how hollywood transports "cop" cars)


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## BossyCow (Mar 5, 2008)

I would really suggest having an informal chat with a liability attorney who makes a living defending Health Care providers to open your eyes to the *huge *liability you are assuming with this. 

You are creating an expectation of a certain level of service with the appearance of that rig. To create the expectation and then not be able to deliver, is one of those situation that the aforementioned atty's just love!


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## Ridryder911 (Mar 5, 2008)

This really has nothing to do with being paid or volley, rather professionalism and potential vulnerability of the public. There is a reason there is standards set by your state and region, to ensure safety to the public. 

Without being a licensed or certified unit, how does the public really know that equipment or personal is of "safe standards"? If your not "fully insured" are you going to cough up the money in one of products you use fails? Are you financially secure to pay a million dollar law suit, to ensure that person receives fair compensation? 

If it is for display, or to restore the unit; then I am in all favor of it. Alike Fire Trucks, old police units, etc.. all with the workings but it is well known that they are NOT to provide emergency services. 


R/r 911


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## mattulance (Mar 5, 2008)

Sounds like a nice rig. I bought a retired 2002 wheeled coach type I about a year ago and I love it. It is great for tailgating and towing a boat down to the river,or whatever. When I bought it I swaped all the lenses and filters to amber and shorted the park kill on the siren, but even though it has no lettering people still sometimes think it is in service. I just tell people that it is out of service and they understand. Ambulances make great trucks and even daily drivers when diesel is cheap or if you have a suppily of bio diesel. I love mine, best truck I ever bought : it will pull anything , the module has a compartment for anything immaginable, it seats 5 (six with a cot) and the dual alternators let me weld while I am driving. It is true anyone who would sell a perfectly  good rig to a junk yard is stupid.


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## Jon (Mar 6, 2008)

What is the difference between MFR and EMT, anyway, in practice?

I've got a decent BLS bag in the trunk of my car. I have an O2 tank that lives in my shed... I only break it out when I'm doing a first aid standby for the Boy Scouts... I've got no reason or want to keep it in my trunk 24x7.


If I see an accident or something else, if IT IS SAFE, I'll stop and try to help, if it looks like I'm needed. This is a judgement call... I won't stop for a fender-bender, but if the wreck "looks bad" I'll stop and help until the local EMS gets there... I usually have a reflective vest (or 2, or 3) in my car, too, for my safety.

The bag also functions as a first aid kit when I'm out with the family or others... Friends and kids of friends get stung by bees, or slam their hands in doors, or need a bandaid, they ask me, becuase I've got a first aid kit.


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## TgerFoxMark (Mar 6, 2008)

mattulance said:


> Sounds like a nice rig. I bought a retired 2002 wheeled coach type I about a year ago and I love it. It is great for tailgating and towing a boat down to the river,or whatever. When I bought it I swaped all the lenses and filters to amber and shorted the park kill on the siren, but even though it has no lettering people still sometimes think it is in service. I just tell people that it is out of service and they understand. Ambulances make great trucks and even daily drivers when diesel is cheap or if you have a suppily of bio diesel. I love mine, best truck I ever bought : it will pull anything , the module has a compartment for anything immaginable, it seats 5 (six with a cot) and the dual alternators let me weld while I am driving. It is true anyone who would sell a perfectly  good rig to a junk yard is stupid.



I will have photos of my rig up once i get my camera figured out. (new digital one, no clue how to work it... I miss my 35mm.)
BioDiesel is pretty easy to get around here for cheap, and the rig can move just about anything I need to, does a great job with the travel trailer. my Dodge Dakota strains to move the thing 318 v8 BTW..  the old ambulance, doesnt even blink.  and it has a place for everything... OCD plus plenty of compartments!


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## emtwacker710 (Mar 7, 2008)

ccems644 said:


> Tger,
> 
> Sounds like to me you enjoy what you do. I may be wrong (I say the following based on where I live) but as long a s you stay within you scope of practice, call for "on Call" EMS unit and don't try to haul em to the hospital your probably not gonna get into trouble. I have lights and siren on my POV and am not afraid to use them. I carry my EMS duty bag with me at all times. I feel I am an EMT 24-7-365. (I feel the same for the Fire Dept I am on. I carry my Fire gear also.)
> People in your community should be grateful to have a dedicated person like you living there...



I agree with you also, I am the same way, I carry my FD turnout gear in my truck along with my BLS trauma bag and have warning lights on my vehicle, except for when I am in school I consider myself on call 24-7-365 as I am in a vol. company...nothing wrong with it


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## Ridryder911 (Mar 7, 2008)

emtwacker710 said:


> ...nothing wrong with it


That is a matter of an opinion. 

R/r911


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## BossyCow (Mar 7, 2008)

I have driven by incidents and I have stopped. It's a totally subjective thing. To say you will stop at all of them is just as ridiculous as saying you will never stop. 

I am in a very rural area. I respond POV to department calls. I have no lights, just a radio and a small kit. My kit lives in my car because that way I always have it, in the trunk, next to my 24hr SAR pack. I also have a bag with my turnouts for fire response or MVAs.

Now, if I have friends in the car with me, I am not stopping for a non-blocking wreck in broad daylight with a crowd already forming.  I'll call it in, but probably won't stop.

If its a traffic hazard, I will probably stop and ask if they need help. I did that before I was an EMT and I still do it. I will offer to call dispatch, or to set flares so more cars don't join the party. If there are obvious injuries that I can offer first aid for, I probably will.

I did stop for a wreck once, it happened right in front of me. It was a blocking head on. I had my kit, I set flares and did a quick triage. I stayed until the local fire department responded and held c-spine on a woman who ended up being airlifted to the local trauma center. 

It was a judgement call. My response was more as a human being doing what was necessary to help my fellow human beings, than as an EMT. I gave my name and cert level to the responding agency and was listed as mutual aid responder on their paperwork. The scene was a two lane highway, flat, straight, full daylight, with wide shoulders. I could offer some assistance at a minimal risk to myself and my vehicle. My vehicle wasn't going anywhere until the road cleared anyway. 

I do not believe I am an EMT 24/7. I do carry a pager/radio and I am available to respond to calls much of the time. When I can, I go. If I've had a drink or two, if I've taken allergy meds or if I'm overtired, or have to wake up early the next morning, I turn my radio off. I have a life outside of EMS.


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## Niftymedic911 (Mar 7, 2008)

Three words.......

Oh My God........ What are you thinking???  I should come over there and slap the crap out of you until your blues turn blue.  

This is a perfect example of why EMS SHOULD NEVER OF BEEN VOLUNTEER!!!!!  Your off-duty, YOUR OFF DUTY!! That's it plain and simple.  Drop the save all to save all attitude.  

Another thread was asking what's wrong with EMS???  THIS IS WHAT'S WRONG.  People buy old ambulances so they can drive around and play giant idiot whacker EMT.  

Please do not move to Florida or in my area.... You will never touch me or my family.


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## TgerFoxMark (Mar 7, 2008)

In areas that cannot afford to run a 24 hour Paid service, would you rather have a volly help you or NO-ONE...  Not everywhere is built up enough to even get one run a day, why pay someone to sit around. Its the same with the FD.

Learn your Geography and look at a population map!
http://www.mapsofworld.com/usa/thematic-maps/usa-population-map.html
I even found you one!


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## Ridryder911 (Mar 7, 2008)

TgerFoxMark said:


> In areas that cannot afford to run a 24 hour Paid service, would you rather have a volly help you or NO-ONE...  Not everywhere is built up enough to even get one run a day, why pay someone to sit around. Its the same with the FD.
> 
> Learn your Geography and look at a population map!
> http://www.mapsofworld.com/usa/thematic-maps/usa-population-map.html
> I even found you one!



Another EMS wives tale. I much rather have someone that is prepared to respond immediately, and do not have to leave their families and home to get to me. 

How about consolidating EMS services and rotating the crews to get some down time? It is done and can be done in a lot of areas. I am currently setting in a local community <1000 with coverage of about 500 square miles. Average is 1.3 calls a day. We took over with at the least of one and possibly two Paramedics on each truck. The good thing is it allows the crews some well deserved "down time" from our primary response area (where run about 16-18 calls per person/24 hrs). 

I am quite aware of the EMS crisis. Currently in my state the Governor has issued yesterday that the state currently has an EMS crisis. We have three counties (some with 800 square miles) with no local EMS coverage. The nearest one is about 45 to 60 minutes away. It is not unusual for EMS helicopter services to be the primary responder (no ground unit). 

The answer is the public* has to be educated that EMS is an essential service!* Does your county/community have a County Health Department, a nursing home, possibly a hospital within itself, and Sheriff's Department?
Then it can afford a EMS. Again, it is all in the priorities it self for itself. 

I can assure you if you have an EMS, they will not be setting around. The reason most rural citizens do not call EMS is because if they are volunteers (and they know most of the members), it takes a while for them to get to the scene. Compare the EMS run numbers, and after 6 months with a professional EMS see if there is a difference...One will be surprised. 

The difficulty is making citizens aware that not every community can have their own EMS, just alike hospitals had to do several years ago. Hence "Regional Medical Centers". Now, we also have to have pay structures for reimbursement of an essential service. You do usually get what you pay for in return. Ad valorem taxes, bond issues can assist operations along with proper billing and charges to off set the costs. 

R/r 911


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## Webster (Mar 7, 2008)

I work at in the Health/Safety Dept. at a Boy Scout camp in a very rural area and it's often 1/2 hr before an ambulance arrives.  However, I don't think the fact that it's out of the way changes the way I can treat the patient.  The response times for my place of residence, on the contrary, are really fast.  If I did decide to stop, it would be just out of assistance to other people as a person, not as a responder.  I also shut my radio off when I'm not on duty, because when I'm off duty, I'm off duty.  Just my two cents.


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## StarOfLife (Mar 7, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> Far as ..."not afraid to use them".. scares me. It is this type of attitude that we have discussed upon why it is shameless to allow such. What real authority do you have and truthfully what difference are your really going to make by arriving 1 minute earlier? I can argue that you probably place more people (including yourself) into more danger than helping.
> 
> R/r 911



My squad strongly suggests we use them.  We live in a rural community with state roads that have a decent amount of through traffic.  It can easily take me 15 minutes to get to a call across town.

I'm not defending the OP's setup - his state laws and town's by-laws are something with which I am unfamiliar.  However, I do know that I am also expected to carry O2, NRB, BVM, defib, a jump kit with airway adjuncts, and trauma dressings, etc.  Not only am I able to stop and care for someone I find in my town, but I should radio dispatch for additional resources.


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## StarOfLife (Mar 8, 2008)

Niftymedic911 said:


> Three words.......
> 
> Oh My God........ What are you thinking???  I should come over there and slap the crap out of you until your blues turn blue.
> 
> ...



You are ignorant, IMO.  This demonstrates that there are some in EMS who would rather give no care than give volunteer care (towns with 200 calls per year should be staffed full-time?).  Why shouldn't someone (perceived eccentricities aside) give care at his/her level of training if it could save a life - even "off duty"?

If a complete stranger stopped to care for a family member of mine when there was no higher level of care on scene, I would be eternally grateful - EMT or not.  At least an EMT has a level of training that is more likely to save a life.  Think about it.


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## StarOfLife (Mar 8, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> The answer is the public* has to be educated that EMS is an essential service!* Does your county/community have a County Health Department, a nursing home, possibly a hospital within itself, and Sheriff's Department?
> Then it can afford a EMS. Again, it is all in the priorities it self for itself.
> R/r 911



In our town, volunteer EMTs respond to every call - no "crisis".  It is just that there are few calls and no reason to man the station.  We have nine members that have all levels of skill.  We have a paramedic who responds to a majority of calls, we have a couple of intermediates who do as well, one who is an RN and the other an NP.  And most of the basics have a number of years in EMS - we have a husband and wife that have 50 years experience between them.

We also contract with a private ALS service that responds to all calls for transport.  I see nothing wrong with our system and it mirrors that of many volunteer towns.

JMHO.


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## Meursault (Mar 8, 2008)

A lot of very touchy people in this thread. EMTLife finally gets some drama.



StarOfLife said:


> We also contract with a private ALS service that responds to all calls for transport.



Out of curiosity, why not make the ALS service your 911 provider?


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## SwissEMT (Mar 8, 2008)

I long for the day when whacker assclowns get out of EMS and the rest of us can be regarded as Medical Professionals.


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## certguy (Mar 8, 2008)

Tger , 

  Murphy's an optimist with a sense of humor . When you least expect it , stuff happens . When it does , you deal with it as best you can within your scope of practice , keeping your safety the first concern . You can't help others if you go down too . I've had medical emergencies on my bus , at church , and on the road . We may not have a legal responsibility to help , but as EMS personnel we have a moral responsibility to do what we can to save lives , on or off - duty . 


For me , that got put to the test last week . While driving my bus , I came across a rolled over vehicle  , on fire , with a trapped victim . Our company policy is that we call 911 only , not render aid . The accident had just happened and the nearest help was 12 - 15 min. out . I made the decision to do what I could ( I won't let someone burn to death for any company policy ) I succeeded in putting out the fire ( despite 3 rekindles ) but I couldn't help the driver . He was pinned in , unrestrained and hanging upside down on an obvious broken neck agonal respirations and no radial pulse . The irony was that he'd been ticketed before the accident for not wearing his seat belt . I could've gotten disciplinary action for breaking policy but didn't . Sometimes you have to just do what's right .


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## Ridryder911 (Mar 8, 2008)

StarOfLife said:


> You are ignorant, IMO.  This demonstrates that there are some in EMS who would rather give no care than give volunteer care (towns with 200 calls per year should be staffed full-time?).  Why shouldn't someone (perceived eccentricities aside) give care at his/her level of training if it could save a life - even "off duty"?
> 
> If a complete stranger stopped to care for a family member of mine when there was no higher level of care on scene, I would be eternally grateful - EMT or not.  At least an EMT has a level of training that is more likely to save a life.  Think about it.



Because this is a profession. Do you really understand about EMS Systems management, reimbursement monies, liability of poor response times, etc? 

Towns with 200 people if not close proximity will be considered Frontier. This is a whole different event and not even confused at such. Doubtfully, with 200 people they would even consider an EMS or have one run a year (again location). 



StarOfLife said:


> In our town, volunteer EMTs respond to every call - no "crisis".  It is just that there are few calls and no reason to man the station.  We have nine members that have all levels of skill.  We have a paramedic who responds to a majority of calls, we have a couple of intermediates who do as well, one who is an RN and the other an NP.  And most of the basics have a number of years in EMS - we have a husband and wife that have 50 years experience between them.
> 
> We also contract with a private ALS service that responds to all calls for transport.  I see nothing wrong with our system and it mirrors that of many volunteer towns.
> 
> JMHO.



With all those personal being medical, then I assume you are in close proximity of a metro area. In all actuality you have a medical first response (MFR) system and not an traditional EMS System (since private ALS responds to all calls for transport) which is NOT the same as most volunteer EMS agencies. In all actuality some States do not recognize as an EMS Service rather a Medical First Responder Systems that assists the EMS. 

Be careful upon calling someone ignorant. Understanding the Systems portion of EMS and the different types within and then not clumping them all together is part of education that is needed by everyone involved in EMS. 

There again will always be areas, that will have to depend upon volunteer EMS agencies. Those are very few in comparison to what is being delivered. 

R/r 911


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## Niftymedic911 (Mar 8, 2008)

StarOfLife said:


> You are ignorant, IMO.  This demonstrates that there are some in EMS who would rather give no care than give volunteer care (towns with 200 calls per year should be staffed full-time?).  Why shouldn't someone (perceived eccentricities aside) give care at his/her level of training if it could save a life - even "off duty"?
> 
> If a complete stranger stopped to care for a family member of mine when there was no higher level of care on scene, I would be eternally grateful - EMT or not.  At least an EMT has a level of training that is more likely to save a life.  Think about it.



Please explain to me how much more of an advantage it would be to have an EMT-B over a lay person in any given situation??  All of the EMT cirriculum is COMMON SENSE!!!  CPR is easy, can be easy to learn and self taught.  You both offer the same thing.  Transport and evaulation.  The only difference is the fact that you have whackerism EMS with your LED's, air horns, and shiny Galls badges....

If your town was seroius about EMS and it's public service, yes it should have a paid service to attend to person's in need.  This is the point people.  How can you be considered professional if you go about your business throughout your day, finally get a call @ 3 am in the morning and show up in a pair of jeans and a T-shirt that is from Galls that says "EMT, you only live one life, We help you keep it"???

You sir are ingnorant to the fact is that EMS will never get out of it's dark ages if you consistantly think that volunteer services are acceptable.

I much rather have an agency that consistantly trains and is at the ready to handle an emergency call vs being at your home at 9 in the evening in the middle of hankey pankey, and you decide to respond.  You cannot help but think and treat this call as hurry up let's get this over with so I can go home.  Consistent professionals at the ready are there for a period of time, do their job and go home.  It's not too much to ask for.  You only think it is because of narrow mindedness.  

Who cares about population maps???  They all show the same thing..... EMS should be a fully support and funded public saftey agency.  2 and 3 counties in a row not having BLS or ALS services to respond.  Please.  Take a pay cut, enjoy your life as you have it now, and maybe the rest of the community can also enjoy happier lives with a paid EMS service at the ready.


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## el Murpharino (Mar 8, 2008)

Not all volunteer agencies consist of wackers who wear wife beaters, cutoff jeans, and Galls EMT shirts (although I do interact with those agencies on a regular basis).  It's easy (and comical) to lump all vollies into that stereotype, but there are also alot of agencies that have professional members among them that take great pride in their work.  

Just because you're not getting paid doesn't mean you're not a professional.  Yes, there is more incentive to maintain a professional attitude at a paid agency, but if you have solid leadership at any level that maintains standards, then there shouldn't be any issue on professionalism.


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## TgerFoxMark (Mar 8, 2008)

The shirts we wear when volenteering are Issued jackets for our squad. Im not saying that there are no Halfa$$ people wo are doing CPR with a Cigarette hanging off their lip out there... I have seen that in day to day life. IMO, I will stop if i see an incident that has no-one there, and do what i can until more people get there, and that is if im not in my volenteer area, I have a cell phone, I call for the local Athorities, do what i can till they get there. I am not a FF, but that doesnt mean i cannot use an simple Extinguisher to put a small fire out before it gets big! I have seen people drive right by Bad motorcycle wecks, where there is an OBVIOUS Injury, an no-one there! I'm one who will stop, I have a duty to protect life, and i had that BEFORE i got my EMT-B.
Life is Valuable! Protect it! Yours, Your Family, Your Friends, The Public.

Our Volly squad, Is staffed by people of all levels of training, from First Responders, To D.O.'s and M.D.'s.
To those EMT-P people who think that they are Medical Professionals... Ask a Doctor what he thinks of your skills and 2 years in school, REGARDLESS of how long you have been in the field! Your trained to provide PREHOSPITAL care. That means the Hospital is the End all. 

and 2 final things (sorry for *****ing like this)
1, I didnt join to start Drama, rather to discuss the things that concern me.
and 2, DO YOU AS A PARAMEDIC, THINK YOU SHOULD WORK WITHOUT A MEDICAL DIRECTOR?  Sounds like some have forgotten our roots, and think that they are gods.
I personally, as the thread founder hereby request that the thread be deleted to stop the drama and infighting. We all try to do what we can, This fighting is counter productive to learning.


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## StarOfLife (Mar 8, 2008)

MrConspiracy said:


> A lot of very touchy people in this thread. EMTLife finally gets some drama.
> 
> 
> 
> Out of curiosity, why not make the ALS service your 911 provider?



They don't do that.  Besides, why when it would take them much longer to get on scene.  They have four ambulances and they service 6 towns.  They are very busy.


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## StarOfLife (Mar 8, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> Because this is a profession. Do you really understand about EMS Systems management, reimbursement monies, liability of poor response times, etc?
> 
> Towns with 200 people if not close proximity will be considered Frontier. This is a whole different event and not even confused at such. Doubtfully, with 200 people they would even consider an EMS or have one run a year (again location).
> 
> ...



His response to the OP was unwarranted if you re-read it.  He never adddressed the points you made so I stand by my contention that HE was ignorant.

As well, you make many assumptions.  I am nowhere near a metro area.  We do not have one in New Hampshire.  The nearest metro area is Boston which is 3 1/2 hours away.  We are very rural - that was my point.

And in your last post you stated that we have 200 people.  I stated in my post that you quoted that we have 200 CALLS per year.  That is why I agree with your point that some places do need to rely on volunteerism.

Just because this is a profession, does not mean that there isn't room for those who have the training to volunteer.  It works nicely here - no issues with lawsuits and mostly grateful citizens.  I would never want to work in an area where EMS is so cut throat.

And your last statement reflects my opinion, so I think I now understand you position better.


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## StarOfLife (Mar 8, 2008)

el Murpharino said:


> Not all volunteer agencies consist of wackers who wear wife beaters, cutoff jeans, and Galls EMT shirts (although I do interact with those agencies on a regular basis).  It's easy (and comical) to lump all vollies into that stereotype, but there are also alot of agencies that have professional members among them that take great pride in their work.
> 
> Just because you're not getting paid doesn't mean you're not a professional.  Yes, there is more incentive to maintain a professional attitude at a paid agency, but if you have solid leadership at any level that maintains standards, then there shouldn't be any issue on professionalism.



Well stated.


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## StarOfLife (Mar 8, 2008)

Niftymedic911 said:


> Please explain to me how much more of an advantage it would be to have an EMT-B over a lay person in any given situation??  All of the EMT cirriculum is COMMON SENSE!!!  CPR is easy, can be easy to learn and self taught.  You both offer the same thing.  Transport and evaulation.  The only difference is the fact that you have whackerism EMS with your LED's, air horns, and shiny Galls badges....
> 
> If your town was seroius about EMS and it's public service, yes it should have a paid service to attend to person's in need.  This is the point people.  How can you be considered professional if you go about your business throughout your day, finally get a call @ 3 am in the morning and show up in a pair of jeans and a T-shirt that is from Galls that says "EMT, you only live one life, We help you keep it"???
> 
> ...



You are certainly ignorant.  You obviously have NO experience with volunteer departments.  Ours (and every one in our county) trains twice monthly - we do ice rescue, snowmobile rescue, near-drowning rescue, powerpoint presentations on a myriad of medical issues, radiological training, electrical training, and practical refreshers, etc.  They are usually given by our members with higher levels of certification.  We train more often than both paid services.

Also, please tell me how many lay people actually know CPR and how to do it properly?  How often are they tested to ensure their skills are up to par?  How many people know how to hold c-spine or establish a patent airway?  How many carry O2?

How many laymen can insert a combitube or take a blood pressure?  How many know how to assess the signs/symptoms of drug overdose or use an AED?  And you would rather your loved one die before a VOLUNTEER who possesses these skills touch them?  You have an agenda, sir.

We are all professionals on my department and I know no one in our neighboring towns that is reflective of the stereotype you attempt to perpetuate.  Our medic was on the lead team at the World Trade Tower disaster and that type of talent is everwhere in volunteer agencies.  Your pay does not ensure that you are skilled, by any means.

Additionally, please convince me that a town of 2200 with 200 calls per year on average should have a paid service manned 24 hours.  Why?  And there is a shortage of EMTs in my area.  Both local services are desperate for help - we have a shortage of certified EMTs and you cannot make people want this as their paid profession.  You do and I do (I am starting with a private service next week), but it isn't for everyone, clearly.  If we had no volunteers, we would be screwed since it would only further limit the pool of personnel who respond to emergencies.

Oh, and I am not a sir.


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## TgerFoxMark (Mar 8, 2008)

Finally, someone who understands that Volly's can be professional. I know many Paid "Professionals" who dont give a damn about the patients, and hate the entire idea of the job. They want their paycheck, and couldnt care for someone the minute their shift ends. I honestly would rather have a Vollenteer who GIVES A DAMN show up over a Paid person who doesnt give a rats.


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## Diver911 (Mar 8, 2008)

"Please explain to me how much more of an advantage it would be to have an EMT-B over a lay person in any given situation??"Niftymedic911

Although I do not agree with the OP of this thread... this is a pretty ridiculous comment.  Then to say we only offer "Transport and evaluation.".. you cant be serious..? Not all EMT-Bs can be lumped in with your views... you have had to come across a few that impressed you or maybe even gave you a hand... maybe not though.. I feel sorry for you that you can not see the big picture that all EMS personnel regardless of training have made sacrifices to aid in times of need and sometimes during very stressful situations that maybe the "joe" next to you would not have reacted and possibly ran the other direction.  Volunteers do this on a daily basis, which means they do not get paid to do it, but nonetheless they do it anyway.. or the Vollys that pay with their life while on scene.... they sacrificed!  

To the OP.. do your time/job and when off duty.. be off duty.. don’t make a fool of yourself or a bad name of the profession parading around like some cowboy.. think before you act..


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## certguy (Mar 9, 2008)

You know , we're all family here , but it's high time the pro's quit beating the vollies down every chance they get . For those who consider EMS as just a paycheck ( don't give a darn about thier fellow man off duty ) I pity your patients . All the puffed up I'M A PAID PROFFESIONAL attitude probably shows in your pt. care when all you want to do is get through your shift and go home . In a perfect world , there'd be paid agencies everywhere , but the simple fact is , the world is far from perfect , budgets are shrinking , not growing , and in many areas , the money just isn't there and doesn't grow on trees to pluck and start new programs . I've worked with excellent vollies and I've seen PRO'S who give totally lousy care and shouldn't be out there . Proffesionalism comes down to the individual . Knock it off with the stereotypes on both sides . Vollie wackers and stuck up overinflated paragods . As I said before , we're all family , let's start acting like it and help each other grow , not put each other down .


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## Ridryder911 (Mar 9, 2008)

I will respond, but I hope this does not get locked. It is just a shame that those that took a whopping 150 hour course, assume that they really know anything about EMS and medicine. Seriously, a beautician course is longer to cut hair, than an EMT course is in length to treat the sick and injured. 

Sorry, there is very little difference from advanced first-aid and the Basic EMT course. With that course alone, does not allow one to have enough knowledge of EMS, the systems, and definitely not to judge or critique, what is medicine or not. There is NO WAY that  level can understand the "big picture" because they have not had the education to understand. 

Back to the "root theory" remember that roots continuously grow outward and develop into something bigger and better. Many of us spent *years* of college, and experience to be proficient in EMS. Please do Not even to attempt to compare a few hours a week or a "week-end" course as equivalent. There is a BIG difference. 

Now, as I keep referring that there are remote areas, that will always have to depend upon volunteer EMS agencies. I honor those people. 

Please, realize those "special classes" that many are refer to, are not really special to many of us. We have had them, even may have became instructors in those areas, and now I have personally grown tired of hearing about them. In professional services, one usually has to be re-certified or required annual testing over those "special classes". I wished I had a nickel over every "bio-hazard, HIPAA, refresher type courses, etc. ". This is why, many of us may appear "smug" to those posts. It really is not that big of deal for many of us. Considering myself alone have over 400 hours of CEU's; within the past year. 

Alike your job you have to be proficient and good in, we have to as well. If your not, you will be sued or be fired. Period. 

Many of us that post here, are passionate about EMS. It is NOT a hobby, or something for us to do to feel good about ourselves. So, when we attempt to educate or discuss the "system" we are attempting to explore past the foundation level course that  all  of us have had. You say you want more education, in fact you are receiving it. It is that you may not agree with it. If possible, just explorer the possibility outside the box or the routine. 

R/r 911


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## TgerFoxMark (Mar 9, 2008)

I work both. full time paid, part time Volly! I see both sides, Both have Wackers, Both have Paragods. Deal With it. Get back to being a family! We are not this Disfunctional!


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 9, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> I will respond, but I hope this does not get locked.
> R/r 911



Unfortunately, too many people in this thread forgot the First Rule of EMTLife.com.

Rather than waste my time and give infractions to everyone that violated the forum rules, I'm gonna throw the







and close this thread for 24 hours.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 9, 2008)

This thread is now reopened provided everyone can follow the rules


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## uscgk9 (Mar 9, 2008)

Well, this thread has surely gotten heated over the last week. We all probably could have done without the comments from Fort Myers but I guess every one is entitled to their voice. There will always be heat and tension between paid and volunteer service. I've been a volunteer for 23 years but don't really have a choice since I'm still on active duty and haven't planned to retire yet. I'm sure most of us remember our days of being a new EMT-B. Back in 1985 when I first entered the world of EMS I too was pretty proud and eager to hit the streets. Since then I have taken many classes in many states and have rose to where I am today and will continue in the years to come with CC being my next hurdle. Try to put yourself in their shoes for just a minute. Many paid EMS providers have started from the volunteer ranks and have moved up. Some have gone to Paramedic School with never even stepping foot on an ambulance. I saw many when I was going through Paramedic School. They may have the book smarts but don't have an ounce of field experience. In my years I have seen some terrible EMS providers. Both career and volunteer. I have also seen some great ones. Who knows, maybe 20 years down the road these kids will be in our shoes sitting here laughing. EMS has the same problems any other line of work. I’ve seen some pretty lousy cops in my travels and I've come across some pretty stupid nurses as well. Let’s just remember that we all have started somewhere and maybe we can try not to "eat our young". As for EMS becoming a profession the National Standards are looking ahead. I would suggest anyone here to breeze through them.


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## Niftymedic911 (Mar 9, 2008)

I can play nice........ Just wanted to stir things up a bit it looked like the site hasn't had a good topic in yrs.............

I'm usually a very nice person.  I love everything about EMS.  You do what you can, and do what you need.  I dont' really condone owning an old ambulance though that's too far.  If you think volunteering is your thing....... fine that's you and your life.  I just don't see it that way.  

Have fun and be SAFE!!!!!,
Nifty


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## Meursault (Mar 10, 2008)

ffemt8978 said:


> Unfortunately, too many people in this thread forgot the First Rule of EMTLife.com.



Don't talk about EMTLife.com? 

Cue the flood of apologies and retractions. Nut up, people. The admins don't want pointless flamewars, and this was headed that way, but stand by what you said.

It's unfortunate that we can't have discussions about the state of EMS without the two sides being perceived as pompous "professionals" with no regard for their patients and ignorant chest-thumping hobbyists, respectively.

Sometimes I'm happy I'm (God willing) just passing through on my way to other parts of medicine. I don't see any change on the horizon, at least not for the better. It seems as if EMS is stuck in a vicious cycle where the patchwork of state and local agencies prevents the development of professional standards, and the lack of a single identity for EMS providers prevents the systems from being standardized. Any change is likely to come from the top, and Random Acts of Reality, among others, has me worried about EMS in a single-payer/ socialized system as well.

But fight it out. It amuses me.


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## BossyCow (Mar 10, 2008)

I am in the exception that proves the rule according to Rid. I live in an extremely rural area with 200 and some calls per year. But I also see the other side with my husband's civil department. They have a volunteer squad that responds with the paid staff. This is according to the city, an augmentation of the original staff that is not paid. Okay, they are kind of paid, but not the same rate as the career staff. This raises some questions for me:

If the standard is the same, what is the justification for paying them less?
How can the skill level be the same when they run about 1/3 the number of calls as the paid guys?
When the volunteer shows up on a scene, does the family, pt, understand that this is not the paid staff and should it even matter?

I am proud of my vollie status. I do provide a service where there is nothing else but me. We can't get the local ALS provider to expand their response area in anything other than a mutual aid to us, which the agency has to pay for. We train often and well. But, I understand that the level of service I can provide is not the same that would be rec'd in a more urban area. 

I would also like to point out, that this thread began, not as a vollie vs paid discussion but as a discussion about whackerism in its many forms. I have 14 volunteers in my agency. None of them has even approached the level of whackerism required to partially stock their own pseudo-ambulance and use it to respond to calls. We do not respond in Joke T-shirts and with Joe Fireman make believe light bars on our cars. Lets not fall into the trap of polarizing this into two extremes. There's a lot of middle ground which is where most of us practice.


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## Jon (Mar 10, 2008)

I had a very long reply for this all typed... but I feel the discussion is heading in the direction of "Paid vs. Volunteer" arguments... and this thread isn't really about that, so in an effort to keep the thread "on topic", I'm holding off for right now.


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## uscgk9 (Mar 10, 2008)

Since this thread started with the kid owning an old ambulance, where are pictures???? Let's see this rig.


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## uscgk9 (Mar 10, 2008)

*Here's pictures of my toys.*


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## scottmcleod (Mar 10, 2008)

uscgk9 said:


> Since this thread started with the kid owning an old ambulance, where are pictures???? Let's see this rig.



He's probably scared ****less now after having 20 EMT-P's jump down his throat. 

j/k 

+1 . Might as well see the shiny toy that started this storm...

Also, Mark, that's one SEXY line of rigs. You're a lucky bunch of vols.

Though, (personally) I find the type-3 rigs to be a little sexier, I can see the appeal of the Truck-style EMS rigs instead. (especially when part of a Fire Dept.)


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## uscgk9 (Mar 10, 2008)

The third one down has 240,000+ miles on her. A little rough but it still gets us down the road.


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## medic417 (Mar 10, 2008)

Origional poster most states only allow you to treat at the basic level.  It seems you have really gone to the extreme.  At my service we have written permission to work at our level in our coverage area.  I have a good amount of equipment but I also live in a very remote location and might have to treat my family for an extended time prior to help.


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## Niftymedic911 (Mar 10, 2008)

MrConspiracy....

I wasn't apologizing, just stating that I can play without having to get banned.

And getting back to the oringinal topic......  There are many forms of whackerism.... it just seems to pop up more with volley departments.  There are bunch though that do work for paid services who are just as bad.  I think we all were when we were new to the game.  I'll admit I had a scanner, stickers on my POV, when I first started.  2 yrs in my scanner went on the shelf and collected dust.  The stickers faded off and I peeled them off.  I don't carry a jump bag anymore either.  I was harshly introduced to the EMS field with an FTO that hated whackers.........  Needless to say I had a rocky start with EMS bc of him.  But hey I turned out right now eh??? (Note the sarcasim in the line).

USCGK9, you dont want to whip my rigs out to put your to shame now do ya??? 

Be Safe Out There,

Nifty


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## uscgk9 (Mar 10, 2008)

Bring it on!!! I'm do to retire soon at maybe looking for a medic job in Florida. If I like your rigs maybee I'll apply. Who knows, maybe you'll be my FTO and we can talk about our roots in EMS....lol.


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## brentoli (Mar 10, 2008)

Is this what you drive? And wear?


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## medic417 (Mar 10, 2008)

A dispatcher with a sense of humor.  Good one Brentoli.


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## ccmedoc (Mar 10, 2008)

Maybe something like this?


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## medic417 (Mar 10, 2008)

CCmedoc thats just wrong.  Funny but wrong.


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## LIFEGUARDAVIDAS (Mar 10, 2008)

*J//k*



brentoli said:


> Is this what you drive? And wear?




:unsure: Oh oh. Is that an ambulance with blue lights? EMTLife administrators get ready, here comes the discussion's second wind! P Just kidding -there's already another thread with a discussion about that )




Guri


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## TgerFoxMark (Mar 10, 2008)

No im still here, life got a bit busy. I will post pics probily this weekend. And If you Look @ Code Blue, Its a publicity stunt by Rual Metro and several other groups. IMO, Its a Little bit too far for a major service. but good use of an old rig is a tailgating unit. Our service has a retired fire truck (1960's we use just to go to games. Its kinda fun. Blue Fever hit Indy pretty hard.


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## Niftymedic911 (Mar 10, 2008)

Your move USCGK9!!!!


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## scottmcleod (Mar 10, 2008)

Is it wrong that the last shot of the engine bay turns me on? j/k!

For an operational vehicle, that's a CLEAN bay.

More shots of your helos!


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## reaper (Mar 11, 2008)

What did you end your ambulance to Pimp My Ride? Little waste of funds there!!


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## scottmcleod (Mar 11, 2008)

reaper said:


> What did you end your ambulance to Pimp My Ride? Little waste of funds there!!



As funny as it might look, I bet that rig is a treat to do maintenance on because all of the wiring and harnesses are not only clean, but neatly organized and out of the way...

Though, Pimp-My-Rig still stands ;-)


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## milhouse (Mar 11, 2008)

oh your just jealous that your service doesnt have as nice of rigs as lee county does. i know im jealous lol. im stuck driving dodge sprinters biggest pieces of crap. they should be illegal to have as ambulances


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## certguy (Mar 11, 2008)

Cool rigs guys ! Pretty sweet . As for the battle royal earlier , let's just agree to disagree and get back to being a family . We're all in this to save lives and better ourselves and that's our common bond .


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## Meursault (Mar 11, 2008)

Niftymedic911, consider me envious.
For comparison, my college service has, in total, an Expedition with lights, decals, etc. and way too much gear for a sleepy little campus, backed up by a very intimidating Ford Taurus in a nameless ugly shade of green with essentially nothing to identify it as an emergency vehicle.

I'd post pictures, but I'm reluctant to ruin their reputation by associating myself with them.

When I do drive, it's for a private, and it's vanbulances all the way. Stupid cost efficiency, getting in the way of shiny man-toys.

Isn't there a vehicles thread somewhere? Can we take the party over there?


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## uscgk9 (Mar 11, 2008)

"The Devil bowed his head because he knew that he'd been beat, and he laid that golden fiddle on the ground at Fort Myers' feet"


Nice trucks!! I especially like the smaller 4X4. I wish we had a 4X4 here in Virginia for our snowy days. I'll be sure to look you up in a few years when I retire from the USCG and jump the fence to the paid side.....lol.


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## medic417 (Mar 11, 2008)

certguy said:


> Cool rigs guys ! Pretty sweet . As for the battle royal earlier , let's just agree to disagree and get back to being a family . We're all in this to save lives and better ourselves and that's our common bond .




Nope that would not be any fun.  Let the slaughter continue.  J/K


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## CFRBryan347768 (May 12, 2008)

MrConspiracy said:


> Don't talk about EMTLife.com?



2nd RULE: You DO NOT talk about EMTLife.com.

3rd RULE: If someone says "stop" or goes limp, taps out the thread is over(LOL.)

Cant think of anything for 4-8

LOL


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## NJN (May 12, 2008)

CFRBryan347768 said:


> 2nd RULE: You DO NOT talk about EMTLife.com.
> 
> 3rd RULE: If someone says "stop" or goes limp, taps out the thread is over(LOL.)
> 
> ...



LMAO, nice use of movie reference. :beerchug:


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