# Females



## Clare (Dec 8, 2012)

Before we begin, in case you haven't figured, Clare is a girls name 

The Order of St John first allowed female Ambulance Officers in 1982 and if my research is correct the first female Advanced Care Officer (Paramedic) or what is now called Intensive Care Paramedic was 1989.  

It greatly intrigues me, and irks me just a little, that in the three decades since then that the general public have not accepted females as being just as capable as a male Officer.  On watch by-and-large the guys are outnumbered by girls yet there is no difference except which bits are down below.  Female Ambulance Officers are just as capable of lifting, carrying, assessing, treating, transporting and doing all the other bits and pieces that male counterparts are yet somehow seen as lesser by the public?

Often times when two females turn up there is a silent look, even if it is fleeting, or some comment (particularly by older people) or just I don't know how to describe it, something, that says they are somehow surprised that two girls are paired together.  I mean why not? there are females soldiers, firefighters, politicians, two of our Prime Ministers have been female (the current Australian PM and I believe the German Chancellor are both female), so what gives? Nobody says anything about female police officers or accountants or lawyers or Prime Ministers or whatever ... 

I have been to road crashes, heart attacks, asthma, burns, diabetes, generally sick people, people who are critically unwell and those who are not, had to talk to rape victims and seen dead bodies, including people who have taken their own life, and I think I handle it pretty well.  Yes, I've gone out the back and cried over people, in particular people who had died as a result of road crash or suicide and people who have been raped but I have seen others (both male and female) do the same.  I am certainly not one of these deluded, cotton wool and puppy dogs fairy tale princess types who believes all is right with the world and that one day some amazing person is going to come scoop me up and we are going to live happily ever after sorts and yes, I think compared to some, particular to other males, I am a bit more caring and empathetic or motherly and I suppose that is more inherent of females but doesn't mean girls are soft-pants who can't do the job.

I'd really like to know if others get the same or if its just me? It is not an all day everyday thing but on the road there are times when it does occur and I can't put my finger on exactly why, so perhaps we can Clare-ify the issue  

I should also say that I am talking about the public at large and not the ambulance service itself; the ambulance service is fantastic and very supportive of all its staff regardless of anatomy, there are females in such positions as Duty Operations Manager, Operations Team Manager, District Operations Manager and quite a few of the Clinical Development Team are female.


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## Anjel (Dec 8, 2012)

I know you are all girl power and stuff. But really if you are professional, and are respectful that's what you should get in return.

I'm not treated any differently by the guys I work with. Our company is pretty much 50-50 when it comes to gender. 

The only time I feel I'm treated differently is when one of the firefighters Asks if they can lift the stretcher for me.

But if you go around screaming I'm a girl, I'm just like you! I feel that causes problems.


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## Clare (Dec 8, 2012)

Anjel1030 said:


> I know you are all girl power and stuff. But really if you are professional, and are respectful that's what you should get in return.
> 
> But if you go around screaming I'm a girl, I'm just like you! I feel that causes problems.



I wouldn't say I am "girl power" in that I am some sort of ultra-pro female equality feminist or nothing and among paramedics girls are treated no differently.  If you want to see girl power I should introduce you to a Police Officer I used to know, she had bigger balls than any man I have ever met!

What I mean is the the public often give a look, or a comment, particularly if the crew is female (i.e. two girls) and interestingly I find it is often older people particularly older ladies that say something.

I don't go round screaming about how girls are the same as the guys but honestly there is little difference, nobody says anything to a both-male crew so why do they say something or give a look to a both-female crew when nobody would say anything to a pair of female police officers?  I suppose the same can be said for male nurses, there are a few out there (but quite rare) and I know one or two through the ambulance service and they comment that people often say something to them too.  

I find the psychology of such behaviour quite interesting because I've noticed it a bit lately is all and I am curious.


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## Anjel (Dec 8, 2012)

I guess I've never had the public mention anything to me and my female partner.


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## NYMedic828 (Dec 8, 2012)

FDNY EMS is pretty split 50/50 gender wise.

No one really gets treated differently by the public or agency. The only thing that ever really gets brought up is some people prefer not to work with women on the basis that they aren't usually capable of lifting as much weight. 

Its nothing against women, most men are just more muscular naturally. 

Personally I don't care because I can just call for assistance if need be.


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## Anjel (Dec 8, 2012)

And that is a valid point. I can lift what is required by policy. Which is my half of a 300 lb person on a stretcher, but a guy crew may be able to do 350. Or we have have one crew that does a 550lb dialysis pt. 

No use hurting yourself though.


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## NYMedic828 (Dec 8, 2012)

Anjel1030 said:


> And that is a valid point. I can lift what is required by policy. Which is my half of a 300 lb person on a stretcher, but a guy crew may be able to do 350. Or we have have one crew that does a 550lb dialysis pt.
> 
> No use hurting yourself though.



I don't know why anyone cares. If its a legitimate assignment im going to call for a BLS backup when we see the patient anyway. Otherwise I can call a CFR engine to come lift them. Takes 2-5 minutes to get either onscene.


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## retarmyeng06 (Dec 8, 2012)

*Not an anomaly...*

My .02 cents and nothing more...

I am a Male firefighter/EMT and have witnessed this type of behavior especially from older men and women and occassionally from others as well. From my perspective I believe it is a generational issue with the older folks; as for the others its either from ignorance or preconcived ideas (i.e. prejudice).


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## DesertMedic66 (Dec 8, 2012)

My medic is a female and I am a male. When we arrive on scene with a fire department we don't normally run with they always assume that I am the medic. Same thing at the hospital. 

Our company is no where near a 50/50 split. We have maybe 10-20 females and 100+ males.


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## NomadicMedic (Dec 8, 2012)

We're about 25% female at my service. I actually like working a split crew, male and female, but haven't noticed any odd looks or ever heard any comments.


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## Bullets (Dec 8, 2012)

Ive never had anyone say anything about having a female EMT on a crew. Actually, ive had a patient comment about an all male crew on an OB call but thats about it

Ive have had issues when it comes to lifting and moving a patient, as the female members cant lift as much, or in two cases, say they cant lift at all. Ive never had a male refuse a lift. 

Calling for an engine company for a lift for a person under 300lbs isnt acceptable in my service. Everyone is expected to be able to lift 150lbs as part of the requirments for employment and most oof my all-male crews wouldnt call for anyone under 500lbs.


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## MagicTyler (Dec 8, 2012)

When I told my grandma that I was getting ready to graduate paramedic school she told me " Around here the ambulance only has female drivers, I bet they'd let you be in the back though".


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## abckidsmom (Dec 8, 2012)

I only get comments when we are a double female crew. And I just brush them off. 

People are always gonna think what they think, you only control your reaction to their stuff, and I really think that smart women just let these kind of things just roll off their backs and do their jobs. 

I sometimes make a joke, brush it off, whatever, but if you just go all low-key and let it go, it gets better.


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## Clare (Dec 8, 2012)

abckidsmom said:


> People are always gonna think what they think, you only control your reaction to their stuff, and I really think that smart women just let these kind of things just roll off their backs and do their jobs.



I am more interested in why people think what they think rather than what they say or do; and why it seems to only be with a female ambulance crew, nobody says to the police if they are on scene and all the cops are female but they will make some comment about two female ambulance officers.  

Maybe it is generational, I find the older people seem to say something more often its the older females, I think they are trying to be nice or encouraging or something when Nana says "oh you girls are doing a wonderful job, do you find it any trouble being just the two of you dear?" or something.

Not the end of the world but interesting I find none the less.


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## VFlutter (Dec 8, 2012)

I am on the flip side of the coin. I will be one of 5 male RNs on the floor with 40+ Females


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## Clare (Dec 8, 2012)

ChaseZ33 said:


> I am on the flip side of the coin. I will be one of 5 male RNs on the floor with 40+ Females



I know a couple of male nurses and they are very, very few and far between; nursing is still almost exclusively female.


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## leoemt (Dec 8, 2012)

We have lots of girls working for us. We even have several female - female partnerships and they are treated just as well as the men. 

Now in my opinion a true professional will recognize their strengths and weaknesses. That includes females who realize they just aren't as strong as their male counterparts as an example. 

It actually bothers me that we still have this topic being brought up. I would think that with all the ergonomics talk lately, you would realize you have one body and once you mess it up your done. 

I'm a male but I am not too proud to accept help. We recently were doing a sheet transfer of an elderly patient that weighed probably 100lbs soaking wet. When we did the transfer we had 4 people to help us. Was it overkill? Yeah it was. Did it make it easier? Yeah it did. Why would I turn down help? I got one back, strong or not I am not going to screw it up for anyone. 

I don't think the problem is females being accepted, rather I think it is females refusing to be accepted. The sooner you admit your weaknesses the sooner you can overcome. 

I work with girls all the time. Many of which are young and petite. I have never had a problem with them pulling their own and I have been happy to work alongside them.

Respect isn't given - its earned. Being female doesn't automatically entitle you to respect.


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## Clare (Dec 8, 2012)

leoemt said:


> I don't think the problem is females being accepted, rather I think it is females refusing to be accepted.
> 
> Respect isn't given - its earned. Being female doesn't automatically entitle you to respect.



Wow, you sound like a real jerk.

I'm not saying female ambulance officers are not respected; I am curious as to what is the motivation behind the passing looks or comments of some of the public when a double female crew turns up that is only given to female ambulance officers and not female police or firefighters or doctors (in my experience).  As Chase said, the same is given to male nurses as several of my friends are male nurses and they say the same thing, some people give you a look or a comment, in the ambulance service it seems to be predominantly older people, older females especially,

I am not talking about professional relationships between crews; I have had or seen or heard of any problems between male and female ambos but rather my interest lies with the public at large.


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## abckidsmom (Dec 8, 2012)

Clare said:


> Wow, you sound like a real jerk.
> 
> I'm not saying female ambulance officers are not respected; I am curious as to what is the motivation behind the passing looks or comments of some of the public when a double female crew turns up that is only given to female ambulance officers and not female police or firefighters or doctors (in my experience).  As Chase said, the same is given to male nurses as several of my friends are male nurses and they say the same thing, some people give you a look or a comment, in the ambulance service it seems to be predominantly older people, older females especially,
> 
> I am not talking about professional relationships between crews; I have had or seen or heard of any problems between male and female ambos but rather my interest lies with the public at large.



He was stating his take on the topic, your opinion of what he sounds like is pushing the bounds of Being Nice and is not acceptable. 

Gently steering this conversation back to the public's perception of female EMS  providers.


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## Fish (Dec 8, 2012)

Seems to be a lot of talk about a ratio of Men to Females in the work place, and I am not sure that has much to do with this conversation.

For one, the ratio has nothing to do with "tolerance of the two sexes" it has to do with who went to EMT or Paramedic school, who showed up for the hiring process and who passed the hiring process.

But for what it is worth, I think we are close to a 50/50 split.....

Clare, are you "small"? I guess what I am getting at, is do people look at you this way because they look at themselves, then look at the stretcher, then look at your size then go "How the hay is she gonna lift all this?????" I have never seen or heard of anyone or any patient making a comment as to a Female Paramedics cognitive ability, only physical...... I am not saying I agree with the comments, just saying, those are the only ones I have heard.


As far calling the above a Jerk, I am not sure why you did this. I think he was making reference to people who look for a reason, play the victim, or the blame game. Even when there is none to be had.


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## leoemt (Dec 8, 2012)

Clare said:


> Wow, you sound like a real jerk.
> 
> I'm not saying female ambulance officers are not respected; I am curious as to what is the motivation behind the passing looks or comments of some of the public when a double female crew turns up that is only given to female ambulance officers and not female police or firefighters or doctors (in my experience).  As Chase said, the same is given to male nurses as several of my friends are male nurses and they say the same thing, some people give you a look or a comment, in the ambulance service it seems to be predominantly older people, older females especially,
> 
> I am not talking about professional relationships between crews; I have had or seen or heard of any problems between male and female ambos but rather my interest lies with the public at large.



Wow, thanks for that considering you don't know me. 

I don't know how I am a jerk for stating the obvious. However the more I read your posts I am beginning to get a better picture of the real issue which seems to be you have the problem. 

I have been a police officer (hence the LEO in my SN) and worked with some fine women cops. As an EMT I have been fortunate enough to work with some very intelligent and capable females. Every one of us whether male or female had to go through the same physical agility test. The test doesn't come in blue for boys and pink for girls. 

Other than seeing a few drunks try to flirt with my partners, I have never seen any issues with female EMT's. I don't see it with the fire department, nor do I see it at the hospital. 

There will always be jerks out there. I recently had a patient who was drunk and pregnant and she hated men. My female partner had no problems when she was teching the patient. But when I would move the stretcher I got a slew of insults and "don't drop me". Did it bother me? No. 

I am not in this job to make patients happy. I am here to get them to the help they need.  If they don't like my female partner then oh well so be it. 

Several members of this board who are female have posted. You seem to be the only one that is letting this issue be a problem. If you can't handle people making comments because your female then maybe your too sensitive for this career. 

Females are here to stay and I don't see a problem with it.


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## abckidsmom (Dec 8, 2012)

Ok, now you've had a chance to reply to the comment, Let It Go.


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## Achilles (Dec 8, 2012)

What about LGBT and how the public views them as an EMT?


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## Aidey (Dec 8, 2012)

Clare said:


> I am more interested in why people think what they think rather than what they say or do; and why it seems to only be with a female ambulance crew, nobody says to the police if they are on scene and all the cops are female but they will make some comment about two female ambulance officers.



I'm not sure any of us can tell you why people think what they think about female ambulance crews. Since we are the ones in the field we are going to have a different view on it than the people outside of the field. 

Smarter people don't mouth off about female cops because they know the cop as a gun and handcuffs. Stupider people do mouth off about female cops and it never goes well for them.


Personally, I've heard people make comments about everyone who doesn't look like a stereotypical FF. So comments about too young/too old, female, pregnant, appearance of relative health (that man is sweating a lot is he ok to be doing hard work?). I live in a very Caucasian dominate area and people have made comments to our token dark guy (his name for himself, not mine) about how hard it must be. 

If I had to hazard a guess people make the comments because their view of EMS is gained from TV, and they think what we do is way more dramatic than it actually is.


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## Fish (Dec 8, 2012)

Aidey said:


> I'm not sure any of us can tell you why people think what they think about female ambulance crews. Since we are the ones in the field we are going to have a different view on it than the people outside of the field.
> 
> Smarter people don't mouth off about female cops because they know the cop as a gun and handcuffs. Stupider people do mouth off about female cops and it never goes well for them.
> 
> ...



Asp to the face!


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## Aidey (Dec 8, 2012)

Achilles said:


> What about LGBT and how the public views them as an EMT?



That is a different thread.


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## Clare (Dec 8, 2012)

Aidey said:


> I'm not sure any of us can tell you why people think what they think about female ambulance crews. Since we are the ones in the field we are going to have a different view on it than the people outside of the field.



True, and I think people have presented some good reasons as to why it may be; generational, stereotypes, lack of knowledge, something other than the norm etc



Aidey said:


> Smarter people don't mouth off about female cops because they know the cop as a gun and handcuffs. Stupider people do mouth off about female cops and it never goes well for them.



True



Aidey said:


> Personally, I've heard people make comments about everyone who doesn't look like a stereotypical FF. So comments about too young/too old, female, pregnant, appearance of relative health (that man is sweating a lot is he ok to be doing hard work?). I live in a very Caucasian dominate area and people have made comments to our token dark guy (his name for himself, not mine) about how hard it must be.



Token dark guy, LOL.


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## Hunter (Dec 9, 2012)

Friend of mine had a patient's parents refuse transport because she thought they would drop her kid(the patient). It was a two female crew and it was an ift discharge call.

it varies from region to region I think. There's places where female medics are rare, just like there's places where african american medics are rare. I live ina big urban area. Most of the time when I work with a female partner we'll usually get one comment a shift about how I must be the muscle, my partner laughs it off and I'll comment something like "are you calling me dumb?" or since variance of that depending on the patient ofcourse.



Achilles said:


> What about LGBT and how the public views them as an EMT?



Just a comment, I don't think the public can tell most times. Since LGBT people who work EMS don't really wear a rainbow patch or anything.


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## Bullets (Dec 9, 2012)

Its not just female EMT's. We have three female LEOs on our department and they are not received well by anyone. The male cops think they are a liability and the public doesnt view them as a threat. 

Women are viewed as weaker then men, and in a job like public safety where the perception is that strength is an important value women are percieved as a liability. Because the female EMT can lift the cot as well, the Female FF can carry a body as well, or the Female LEO cant handle herself in a fight as well. That means that i have to "look out" for them more than i would for a male in the same position. 

Im 6'4 250lbs, I have never been in a drill as a EMT where two girls were able to lift and move me from a residence. I have never been in a drill with the FD where the female FF were able to successfully remove me from a "burning" house. I have been in ASP and CQC training and i have never lost to any of the female LEOs despite us going through the same training. 

Our criminals know this. They look at a 6'4 male cop and think "He could kick my butt" whereas they look at a 5'10 female cop and think "I cant take her". Family looks at the same sized female EMT and think "how are they going to carry my loved one out of this house?"


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## ExpatMedic0 (Dec 9, 2012)

No offense, but there are males of that size and nature working in EMS also, also MALES who are so out of shape and fat in EMS that your argument appears blatantly sexist to me. 



Bullets said:


> Its not just female EMT's. We have three female LEOs on our department and they are not received well by anyone. The male cops think they are a liability and the public doesnt view them as a threat.
> 
> Women are viewed as weaker then men, and in a job like public safety where the perception is that strength is an important value women are percieved as a liability. Because the female EMT can lift the cot as well, the Female FF can carry a body as well, or the Female LEO cant handle herself in a fight as well. That means that i have to "look out" for them more than i would for a male in the same position.
> 
> ...


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## EpiEMS (Dec 9, 2012)

I'm a male EMT, and I'm a big fan of working with female EMS providers -- it can be very helpful to have a female provider around with lots of patients. I've yet to have a problem with female providers not being able to lift – I vividly remember two 5'2", maybe 110 lbs female EMT students carrying, boarding, etc. a 6'2", 280 lbs ex-college football player.

Heck, I'm probably more of a liability than many female EMTs are: I'm only 5'7", 140 lbs.!


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## Bullets (Dec 9, 2012)

schulz said:


> No offense, but there are males of that size and nature working in EMS also, also MALES who are so out of shape and fat in EMS that your argument appears blatantly sexist to me.




The men i work with span a large range of heights and weights

The women are in a much smaller range. Ive never worked with a woman over 6ft.


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## Kevinf (Dec 9, 2012)

New rule: Unless you're 6'4" and at least 200lbs you can't work LE, FD, or EMS h34r:

edit: off-topic, is there some way to get the board to stop emailing me every time someone replies to a thread?


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## ffemt8978 (Dec 9, 2012)

Kevinf said:


> New rule: Unless you're 6'4" and at least 200lbs you can't work LE, FD, or EMS h34r:
> 
> edit: off-topic, is there some way to get the board to stop emailing me every time someone replies to a thread?



Go to UserCP - View Subscriptions and you can change the settings there.  http://www.emtlife.com/subscription.php?do=viewsubscription


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## Kevinf (Dec 9, 2012)

I know I can unsubscribe to specific threads there, but how do I stop it AUTO-subscribing me to threads I post in?


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## ffemt8978 (Dec 9, 2012)

Kevinf said:


> I know I can unsubscribe to specific threads there, but how do I stop it AUTO-subscribing me to threads I post in?



http://www.emtlife.com/profile.php?do=editoptions

Change your Default Thread Subscription Options


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## Bullets (Dec 9, 2012)

Kevinf said:


> New rule: Unless you're 6'4" and at least 200lbs you can't work LE, FD, or EMS h34r:
> 
> edit: off-topic, is there some way to get the board to stop emailing me every time someone replies to a thread?



If you cant pass the basic physical requirements then you cant be a FF, EMT or LEO. Our EMS agency has always had a test as part of the hiring process. One part was a written test, one part was a practical test with a medical and trauma component as well as a test of Ked/LBB/Hare traction picked at random. Initial this was done in a large room. We have added a lifting portion of the test. Applicants must carry a stairchair, jump bag and laptop up 3 flights. They must also carry a 300lb loaded reeves with a partner down 1 flight.


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## Kevinf (Dec 9, 2012)

ffemt8978 said:


> http://www.emtlife.com/profile.php?do=editoptions
> 
> Change your Default Thread Subscription Options



Thanks!




Bullets said:


> If you cant pass the basic physical requirements then you cant be a FF, EMT or LEO. Our EMS agency has always had a test as part of the hiring process. One part was a written test, one part was a practical test with a medical and trauma component as well as a test of Ked/LBB/Hare traction picked at random. Initial this was done in a large room. We have added a lifting portion of the test. Applicants must carry a stairchair, jump bag and laptop up 3 flights. They must also carry a 300lb loaded reeves with a partner down 1 flight.



I have no issues with a physical test requirement. People will still judge someone based on sex and size though. No solution for that.


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## Jon (Dec 9, 2012)

n7lxi said:


> We're about 25% female at my service. I actually like working a split crew, male and female, but haven't noticed any odd looks or ever heard any comments.



Yeah. It's nice to have a female partner, at least on some of the calls.

I've never worked on an all-female crew... so I can't say I've had your problem, Clare


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## ITBITB13 (Dec 9, 2012)

I love working with females, they seem to brighten up the day. 
But I have noticed many differences when I work with a female.

Just to name a few,

-I have seen my partners glared at by the public. Atleast once a shift.

-Firefighters are always ALOT nicer. Offering to help carry 300lb patients out of their homes when they normally would just leave the room. 

I worked with a girl who has a normal female partner. She told me they had a female trainee. They ran into a patient who asked "So did they put three of you together since you're not as strong as the guys?"

Female EMTs definitely don't receive the respect they deserve.


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## Clare (Dec 9, 2012)

Jon said:


> I've never worked on an all-female crew... so I can't say I've had your problem, Clare



I highly suggest you try it sometime, unfortunately all the knives in the block in the kitchen are blunt so um, it might hurt a lot ...


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## ffemt8978 (Dec 9, 2012)

Clare said:


> I highly suggest you try it sometime, unfortunately all the knives in the block in the kitchen are blunt so um, it might hurt a lot ...



:rofl:

We'd have to change his username to "Jan" then. 

:rofl:


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## Clare (Dec 9, 2012)

ffemt8978 said:


> :rofl:
> 
> We'd have to change his username to "Jan" then.
> 
> :rofl:



Well, if he does that, I would have to try working with an all male crew but that would make me "Blare" or something, more-over, Blair is the correct spelling but alas, I am Clare not Claire nor Clair, so um yeah.


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## ffemt8978 (Dec 9, 2012)

Clare said:


> Well, if he does that, I would have to try working with an all male crew but that would make me "Blare" or something, more-over, Blaire is the correct spelling but alas, I am Clare not Claire



Nah...we'd just change yours to Clark.


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## Clare (Dec 9, 2012)

ffemt8978 said:


> Nah...we'd just change yours to Clark.



Oh don't you dare, I like my name!


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## Fish (Dec 10, 2012)

What I am about to say is not "sexist" I am just joining the conversation with personal experience, I am a Male of average height and build and have worked with MANY female partners of all sizes, bigger and smaller than me. And males of all sizes, bigger and smaller than me as well. 

Now,

While we are being honest

I have never had a male partner not be able to lift something, I have had female(s) partners not be able to lift something before. 

I have never had a male ask if he can take the foot end of the stretcher because it is the lighter end, but I have had female(s) ask me this. 

I have never heard the local FDs complain of a male Medic for "Never helping lift one of the ends of the stretcher, or bags"

But I have heard them complain of Female Medics in this way......Fire Guy "She never lifts ANYTHING" Me "Did you ask why? Maybe she does not realize she is coming off this way" Fire Man "Yes, she said it is because the stretcher is too heavy" That is not the verbatim conversation by the way, but it was something close along those lines.

I have only seen this with smaller petite females

These occassions have not been often, and to be honest I am not bothered by it. I am very laid back, just do my job and have a good time at work with all my partners. When I was hurt and was not able to lift what I usually can, I appreciated it when people gave me a helping hand and helped me along physically during work. I felt like I had more to offer the job than lifting ability.


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## Clare (Dec 10, 2012)

Your point about girls not being as strong as a male is fair and valid.


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## Fish (Dec 10, 2012)

Clare said:


> Your point about girls not being as strong as a male is fair and valid.



But, like I said. These occassions I listed above were not very often.

And one in particular....... Was most likely pure laziness, and not physical ability.

There is a reason we have atleast 4 people on each scene, we are there to be a Team and help one another.


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## the_negro_puppy (Dec 10, 2012)

I prefer a male / female combo crew.

We honestly don't do that much heavy lifting - we have gear and can call for other crews. The only problem would be for example moving a 100kg pt in cardiac arrest etc


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## DrParasite (Dec 10, 2012)

a female firefighter is expected to do the job as well as any man.  I'm pretty sure their academy and employer doesn't treat them or evaluate them any differently.  I know the risk and requirements of the job don't.

a female police officer is expected to the the job as well as any man.  I'm pretty sure their academy and employer doesn't treat them or evaluate them any differently.  I know the risk and requirements of the job don't.

a female corrections officer is expected to do the job as well as any man.  I'm pretty sure their academy and employer doesn't treat them or evaluate them any differently.  I know the risk and requirements of the job don't.

I hope you see where I am going with this.

I want my partner to be able to do the job properly.  I don't care if my partner's reproductive organs are on the inside or outside.  and I have been stuck with partners of both sexes who couldn't do the job.


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## abckidsmom (Dec 10, 2012)

And speaking as a female, it makes me sick when a girl asks for the foot end of the stretcher, or quits without trying on a task, or any situation where she makes "being female" be the problem that interferes with her ability to do a job. 

Makes us all look bad.


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## Aidey (Dec 10, 2012)

I have a tendency to go to the foot, but it is a height thing. If I am on the head I can lift, but I have a bad habit of using my back more than I should to get the extra inch to get the top all the way up.


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## Jon (Dec 10, 2012)

There are several females that I'm regularly partnered with at work. Many of them do the job, including lifting "their share". I've also worked with a slugs of both sexes. It can be quite handy to have a mixed-gender crew. For example, we often do psych IFT's out of a local children's hospital. When the patient is female, I'd much rather have my female partner ride them. Not saying I still don't pay attention to what's going on from the front seat - but I've never heard of a female EMT accused of sexual misconduct w/ a patient. And I've seen horror stories of false accusations before.

When it comes to whiny partners that want to make me do more than I perceive as fair - I think it's been a pretty even mix male to female. Slugs are slugs.


As for horror stories:
There's one from quite a few years ago that still sticks in my mind as being the "worst case scenario". Young female, brand new EMT. First job, period and its an IFT job. She was pretty... and knew it. She went through her field training time making the FTO (Boss) do all the lifting. She just stood back and batted her eyes, and he just did it. She didn't last more than a couple of shifts after he released her - she was paired with some crusty old firefighters that didn't have any tolerance for BS. They went to the boss's boss, and once said EMT failed a functional lifting exercise, she was gone.


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## DrParasite (Dec 10, 2012)

Jon said:


> They went to the boss's boss, and once said EMT failed a functional lifting exercise, she was gone.


the boss should have been reprimanded as well.  

Not for nothing, but if you fix the problems in the beginning, they don't get worse as time goes on.  ignore the problems, cover for them, let weak providers (or providers who can't do the job) continue to work for your agency, and the agency as a whole suffers.  Get rid of them (and those who approved their continued work) and you raise standards.


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## Clare (Dec 10, 2012)

DrParasite said:


> a female firefighter is expected to do the job as well as any man.  I'm pretty sure their academy and employer doesn't treat them or evaluate them any differently.  I know the risk and requirements of the job don't.
> 
> a female police officer is expected to the the job as well as any man.  I'm pretty sure their academy and employer doesn't treat them or evaluate them any differently.  I know the risk and requirements of the job don't.
> 
> ...



... and yet nowhere did I ask or wonder about any of this.  

What I said I was curious about was the public perception, not the treatment female Ambulance Officers receive from other ambos; which is on the whole entirely professional.


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## DrParasite (Dec 10, 2012)

the public expects when an ambulance is called, help arrives.  they don't care if the crew is male or female 

the only time I have ever seen the question asked involved two 80 lb women who were on the ambulance, and had to do a lift assist on a 300 lb woman.  then the family was like "do you need help?"  I ended up being on the crew for the engine or rescue to help them out get this person off the ground and onto the stretcher.


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## grump (Dec 11, 2012)

I run with all vollys. 8 females 2 males. The job gets done and nobody has ever questioned who showed up.


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## Brandon O (Dec 11, 2012)

I have an attractive female partner who's new to EMS, and I am blown away how many times she gets propositioned, touched, or otherwise sexually harassed in a regular day. Do women really deal with this kind of :censored::censored::censored::censored: all the time?


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## AtlasFlyer (Dec 11, 2012)

Brandon Oto said:


> I have an attractive female partner who's new to EMS, and I am blown away how many times she gets propositioned, touched, or otherwise sexually harassed in a regular day. Do women really deal with this kind of :censored::censored::censored::censored: all the time?



Yup.

Was walking back to my old apartment in Chicago from the El train one day. In full uniform, just walking along getting back from a trip (was a flight attendant at the time) and some dude in a car drives by and shouts, "Hey baby! Wanna have sex?"  My reply, "With you? No."  And I kept walking.

Men say some seriously stupid stuff sometimes.


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## DrParasite (Dec 11, 2012)

AtlasFlyer said:


> Yup.
> 
> Was walking back to my old apartment in Chicago from the El train one day. In full uniform, just walking along getting back from a trip (was a flight attendant at the time) and some dude in a car drives by and shouts, "Hey baby! Wanna have sex?"  My reply, "With you? No."  And I kept walking.
> 
> Men say some seriously stupid stuff sometimes.


and as sad as this sounds, somewhere, some woman will have said yes to him.  otherwise, men wouldn't do it.


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## VFlutter (Dec 11, 2012)

DrParasite said:


> and as sad as this sounds, somewhere, some woman will have said yes to him.  otherwise, men wouldn't do it.



True. And I guarantee some women have said something similar to men


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## Brandon O (Dec 11, 2012)

* Some medic tried to randomly kiss her
* Some PATIENT tried to randomly kiss her
* Triage nurse asked if she was single (she was not) and then proceeded to give her a lecture on being a heart-breaker
* EMT she did NOT give her number made a midnight booty call

I mean, it never ends.


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## usalsfyre (Dec 11, 2012)

Brandon Oto said:


> * Some medic tried to randomly kiss her
> * Some PATIENT tried to randomly kiss her
> * Triage nurse asked if she was single (she was not) and then proceeded to give her a lecture on being a heart-breaker
> * EMT she did NOT give her number made a midnight booty call
> ...



And this is precisely why I was rarely able to try and talk to nurses/medics I might have been interested in...

(that said, I did meet my ex-wife at work)


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## Brandon O (Dec 11, 2012)

usalsfyre said:


> (that said, I did meet my ex-wife at work)



That must have been awkward


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## Aidey (Dec 11, 2012)

Brandon Oto said:


> I have an attractive female partner who's new to EMS, and I am blown away how many times she gets propositioned, touched, or otherwise sexually harassed in a regular day. Do women really deal with this kind of :censored::censored::censored::censored: all the time?



Yes. 

That, coupled with being underestimated all of the time can make life annoying. :glare:

On no less than 4 separate occasions I have had fire men grab my bicep and say something to the effect of "wow, you're strong" while in the middle of lifting the gurney into the back of the ambulance.


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## rescue1 (Dec 11, 2012)

I work with a female medic partner at my job, and we've never had an issue. She can lift and carry and all that good stuff. Also, she is totally the boss and I just do what she tells me.
Actually, I think we once had a "woman driver" joke, and once we had another male EMT ride in the back with her for a combative overdose, but that was less about gender and more about her being small and the patient being jacked.
To be fair, we work in the sleepy upper income suburbs, so I don't know how different it is in urban areas.


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## Clare (Dec 11, 2012)

The jokes, comments and sexual advances are not uncommon, I have never personally had any but I know a few stories.


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## VFlutter (Dec 11, 2012)

Clare said:


> I have never personally had any



Sounds like a personal problem :rofl:


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## AGill01 (Dec 12, 2012)

Heard a story regarding this same topic over the weekend. The paramedic I was working with was paired with another female earlier in the week and the hospital called the base to ask for help in moving a patient and when the women got the room the nurse said out loud in front of every body with in ear shot oh 2 girls we were expecting the guys.


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## Aidey (Dec 12, 2012)

I've had the same thing happen to me and one of my previous partners, but it was with the FD. The kicker was that the pt was less than 350lbs and I was able to lift him into the ambulance by myself.


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## Christopher (Dec 12, 2012)

Clare said:


> It greatly intrigues me, and irks me just a little, that in the three decades since then that the general public have not accepted females as being just as capable as a male Officer.  On watch by-and-large the guys are outnumbered by girls yet there is no difference except which bits are down below.



Perhaps it is just a quirk of the area I work, but I am just as likely to work with a female as I am a male. It probably isn't exactly 50-50, but it is pretty close.


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## AGill01 (Dec 12, 2012)

I haven't read all of the replies but need to add my 2 cents. I am female, 5'1" I weigh about 140 lbs. I know my limits and if I think the patient is too heavy for me to handle the head I will ask my partner to take the head and to load the patient if my partner is a male. If I am paired with another female their have been occasions where we didn't have to ask for help the first responders offered it and we accept. Better to remember our safety first. If someone is too heavy for 2 people to lift safely there is nothing wrong with asking for help. Many EMS end up with back problems from trying to lift more then they can and not asking for help.


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## Tigger (Dec 12, 2012)

AGill01 said:


> I haven't read all of the replies but need to add my 2 cents. I am female, 5'1" I weigh about 140 lbs. I know my limits and if I think the patient is too heavy for me to handle the head I will ask my partner to take the head and to load the patient if my partner is a male. If I am paired with another female their have been occasions where we didn't have to ask for help the first responders offered it and we accept. Better to remember our safety first. If someone is too heavy for 2 people to lift safely there is nothing wrong with asking for help. Many EMS end up with back problems from trying to lift more then they can and not asking for help.



All of this is well and good, but there still has to be a minimum standard that all providers need to meet. Where I work, every crew has to be able to take a 300 pound patient (or so), doesn't matter if it's our two tiniest females. 

Yes you have to remember your own safety, but you have to be able to do the job to the standard as well.

I will never be more embarrassed than when my partner was too weak to carry a 200 pound man up 12 stairs to his front door. I called for an assist and was given an ETA of an hour (and a tongue lashing for not being to get it done). I told the patient that and he said he was willing to work with us so I ended up dragging the stairchair up the stairs like a dolly with my partner "softening the bumps" by lifting a little a bit from the foot. 

It happened again and a rival ambulance company was nice enough to come help us, but after that she was taken off the road until she could pass the lift test, which she somehow got out of taking before being hired. 

I have worked with guys that were weak as well, and that didn't make me happy either. I have also worked with women that could outlift me no problem.


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## Veneficus (Dec 12, 2012)

I have found this thread to be very entertaining.

Time and time again I hear about "lifting" and being able to "do the job."

Without passing judgement, I would like to offer some perspective for entertainment?

If lifting and carrying heavy loads is absolutely requiredfor the job, or at least desirable, why is it not part of original requirements for entry into the educational programs?

Why do employers not have 3 man units (like many FDs) or dedicated equipment for dealing with stairs, uneven terrain, etc?

If you look at jobs requiring lifting and carrying, like airline baggage handlers, there is a limit on the weight permitted, or additional fees for the risk to the worker. 

Imagine telling the 300LBer they have to pay extra because of their weight.

Lifting and moving patients is absolutely required in nursing. Why are nurses not given a lift test?

How about physical therapists?

In order to embrace professionalism over vocation, the knowledge base has to be more important than the physical aspects of the job.

The reality is if it takes 2 baggage handlers to safely hoist a 75lb suitcase on and off of a conveyor belt, how many EMTs should it take to safely lift a 200lb patient?

Do not be taken in with "what it takes to do the job" as a sadomasocistic excuse for your employer putting your health and safety at risk for the most minimal amount of compensation. 

Just some things to think about.


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## Christopher (Dec 12, 2012)

Tigger said:


> All of this is well and good, but there still has to be a minimum standard that all providers need to meet. Where I work, every crew has to be able to take a 300 pound patient (or so), doesn't matter if it's our two tiniest females.
> 
> Yes you have to remember your own safety, but you have to be able to do the job to the standard as well.
> 
> ...



We do 125 lbs single-person lift at one department (unpowered stretchers) and 50 lbs to above your shoulder at another (powered stretchers).

The days of needing to brute strength heft 300 lbs+ are gone or at least should be.

Call for more resources, use smarter techniques, drag them on a tarp if need be. I'd rather have a sharp clinician who needs help with 250lbs+ than picking my medics based on if they can carry obese people...


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## Christopher (Dec 12, 2012)

Veneficus said:


> Why are nurses not given a lift test?



Because nursing is a profession and not a trade.

We :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: about not getting the clinical respect then complain when our partners aren't competent truck drivers, taxi drivers, or moving van employees all at the same time


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## Veneficus (Dec 12, 2012)

Christopher said:


> Because nursing is a profession and not a trade.
> 
> We :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: about not getting the clinical respect then complain when our partners aren't competent truck drivers, taxi drivers, or moving van employees all at the same time



My point exactly.


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## Brandon O (Dec 12, 2012)

Some of the local facilities here have more or less banned nurses from any lifting because they don't want to pay their worker's comp. There are Hoyers in every room, etc.

This is not, unfortunately, an option for us. The fact remains that (at least in certain areas) it's not possible for EMS. No matter how safe you try to be, there will come a time when you either have to go to extreme lengths to minimize lifting (wait an extended time for assistance with a critical patient, etc), or it more or less can't be done (big patient, tight winding staircase, no room for more than a couple people to lift anyway).

Being better at lifting is not more important than being a competent clinician or caring person, but all other things being equal, it IS a relevant and valuable skill that you can bring to the table. I don't think that it's beyond the reach of 99.9% of people, however, if they're willing to put some work in. (My little partner started deadlifting at my request.)

For what it's worth, I think this is one of those things where opinions differ because regions differ. In California I think I used a stairchair once. Out here it's many times a day.


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## Veneficus (Dec 12, 2012)

Brandon Oto said:


> Some of the local facilities here have more or less banned nurses from any lifting because they don't want to pay their worker's comp. There are Hoyers in every room, etc.
> 
> This is not, unfortunately, an option for us. The fact remains that (at least in certain areas) it's not possible for EMS. No matter how safe you try to be, there will come a time when you either have to go to extreme lengths to minimize lifting (wait an extended time for assistance with a critical patient, etc), or it more or less can't be done (big patient, tight winding staircase, no room for more than a couple people to lift anyway).
> 
> ...



I see your point, but I am not sure I agree. 

What is the value of safety?

There is considerable resources devoted to fire departments for various forms of technical rescue. 

There is both training and specialized equipment. Enough to require not only dedicated teams, but also dual axel rescue trucks to haul it all around in.

I have the experience of pulling medical pts. out of some of the tightest spaces imaginable. When I was with the FD, we considered it a rescue for all intents and purposes and treated it as such. 

When with EMS, it was just considered "part of the job" as you stated. 

But is it?

DT4EMS has done a remarkable job of bringing both awareness and solutions to OTJ assaults of healthcare professionals. Being assaulted by a pt. in many places is still considered "part of the job."Obviously that is not true.

What makes the safety of lifting/transporting/rescuing patients any different?

Look at some of the European ambulances. Lift a patient into the back? never, at worst push it up the ramp. When I started lifting the patient meant a 2 man lift from the sides of the stretcher, none of this load the wheels, push it in stuff. A lot of guys and girls got hurt. Permanatly. Especially on uneven ground, snow, and ice.

Many of us didn't get hurt simply because of luck. That is not smart or dependable. 

Not one organization I have ever worked or volunteered for would cover the cost of living at the standard I had aquired if I was injured. You basically had Social Security disability aand in the better organizations (certainly not all), disability insurance.  

Why would you take such risk to your health and your future?

So your employer doesn't have to buy equipment or send extra crews?

There was a time in the industrial aged world where losing a limb on the job was an occupational risk. Those days are long gone. 

Performing a rescue without training or equipment is simply a gamble. 

We agree that transporting a code doesn't do anything but put people at risk. 

The same with any IFT etc. In a MVA entrapment you can expect a minimum of 8-12 rescuers in most civilized places. 

They would cut, pry, or whatever it took to free people. Why is that same standard not embraced for other patients?

One would be tempted to say because of the financial burdon to the pt. but that would exclude the money medicare pays for dwelling modification for the disabled, the disabilities act, and why we put people in care facilities who cannot live at home.

Most people would rather die at home, I don't dispute that. But ask those same people if they would rather disable somebody else in order to do it?

EMS providers accept the risk as part of a culture. A culture of self sacrifice and labor. 

A culture of permitting a better profit margin to their employer and accepting the gamble of personally losing. 

Of EMS services providing the minimum in trucking company operations and not preemptively addressing what is both a health need of the patient and a safety concern for employees. 

As I said, to mak a few extra $.

Are you willing to risk your health and prosperity for it?

I was, but I get smarter as time goes by. Product of being lucky enough to live through it.

I am sure you have heard the joke of the young bull and the old bull?

The G version:

Young bull talking to an old bull standing on top of a hill: "let's run down there and love a couple of those cows."

old bull: "let's walk down and love them all."


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## Brandon O (Dec 12, 2012)

You're not wrong, and it's clearly the case that neither providers nor employers tend to prioritize injury prevention in the US (certainly not to the extent of spending money on it). However, unless someone comes up with some magical techniques or technologies that are quite unimaginable to me, there is always going to be this physical component to doing this job _well_ (i.e. while providing optimal care) You used the example of firefighters -- no matter how skill- or knowledge-intensive that job may be, everyone would probably agree that a line firefighter needs to have some physical fitness.

I also don't think that's necessarily an unreasonable requirement, as long as it's clearly understood. Nor does it invalidate the cognitive aspects of the work. It simply means that this is a job with numerous facets, something we all realize already.

A classic scenario is: patient needs to go ASAP, there are two flights of stairs and he's 350. Not everybody can carry him out, but the time it will take more resources to arrive may significantly affect the outcome. Can you carry him or not? You might be Florence Nightingale and your partner Dr. House, but if you can move this patient quickly and safely, you're doing better for him than a crew that couldn't. Simple enough.


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## Christopher (Dec 12, 2012)

Brandon Oto said:


> A classic scenario is: patient needs to go ASAP, there are two flights of stairs and he's 350. Not everybody can carry him out, but the time it will take more resources to arrive may significantly affect the outcome. Can you carry him or not? You might be Florence Nightingale and your partner Dr. House, but if you can move this patient quickly and safely, you're doing better for him than a crew that couldn't. Simple enough.



Been there, done that.

You use the reeves sleeve as a slide off the bed. Once you get to a suitable landing you bring the truck to them. Perform as much stabilization as necessary and bring as many resources to you on the landing. Once as stable as they'll permit you just slide them down the stairs on the tarp (a spot of rope helps, but we made do with sheets).

Honest answer is if you can't spend the extra time to get them out safely waiting on extra hands...they probably weren't going to have a good outcome even if a couple of NFL linemen were on the truck that day.


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## Veneficus (Dec 12, 2012)

Brandon Oto said:


> A classic scenario is: patient needs to go ASAP, there are two flights of stairs and he's 350. Not everybody can carry him out, but the time it will take more resources to arrive may significantly affect the outcome. Can you carry him or not? You might be Florence Nightingale and your partner Dr. House, but if you can move this patient quickly and safely, you're doing better for him than a crew that couldn't. Simple enough.



Maybe, but i bet I could slide him down those stairs with a piece of webbing and a spineboard much faster and safer than you could carry him.

I seriously doubt there are that many time sensitive emergencies anyway. 

At some point it might even be advisable to just accept the risk to providers is not worth the possible benefits of the outcome.

Would that not be a part of "scene safety?"


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## Brandon O (Dec 12, 2012)

I agree there is a certain point where you can't go faster. We have a 750lb frequent flier and you can't "rush" that extrication.

But where you draw that line does depend on your capabilities.

Granted that knowing the best techniques matters a lot, and it'd be nice if this were covered in class, or at least pre-hire training.


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## Veneficus (Dec 12, 2012)

Brandon Oto said:


> Granted that knowing the best techniques matters a lot, and it'd be nice if this were covered in class, or at least pre-hire training.



For all of it's faults in EMS, the fire service still has a lot to offer.



Brandon Oto said:


> I agree there is a certain point where you can't go faster. We have a 750lb frequent flier and you can't "rush" that extrication.



And you have a rehersed plan for him I'll bet?

You know what I call a 750lber in cardiac arrest?

A corpse...


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## bigbaldguy (Dec 12, 2012)

leoemt said:


> We have lots of *girls* working for us. We even have several female - female partnerships and they are treated just as well as the *men*.
> 
> Now in my opinion a true professional will recognize their strengths and weaknesses. That includes females who realize they just aren't as strong as their male counterparts as an example.
> 
> ...



So do you work with a lot of females under the age of 12 or are you 90+ years old. 



leoemt said:


> I am not in this job to make patients happy. I am here to get them to the help they need.



Why can't you try to do both?


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## Clare (Dec 13, 2012)

A fitness test is part of the recruitment process here; you have to do sit ups, push ups, carry round a 20 kg boxing bag for like 500 metres; carry somebody down two flights of stairs in a stair chair with another person and lift an old style stretcher in an out of the ambulance.

We have the new Stryker stretchers that load onto the tray just by lining them up and pushing and you just have to pull them out and push the button and the legs drop, they are awesome.  Some PTS vehicles have the automatic ones that raise and lower the legs and stuff themselves but they are very heavy and quite expensive.


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## Hunter (Dec 13, 2012)

Clare said:


> A fitness test is part of the recruitment process here; you have to do sit ups, push ups, carry round a 20 kg boxing bag for like 500 metres; carry somebody down two flights of stairs in a stair chair with another person and lift an old style stretcher in an out of the ambulance.
> 
> We have the new Stryker stretchers that load onto the tray just by lining them up and pushing and you just have to pull them out and push the button and the legs drop, they are awesome. Some PTS vehicles have the automatic ones that raise and lower the legs and stuff themselves but they are very heavy and quite expensive.


 
what a lot of people don't realize is that since they're electric, they're meant for two people to load them in, you do that and they weigh nothing.


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## PsychoJoe (Dec 14, 2012)

Hunter said:


> what a lot of people don't realize is that since they're electric, they're meant for two people to load them in, you do that and they weigh nothing.



Agreed. The only legitimate complaint I've ever heard about electronic stretchers (the people using them could care less how much they cost), is the affinity for shoulder injuries while waiting for the legs to raise. If you're using two people to hold it up, this shouldn't be an issue. Besides, I'd much rather have shoulder pain than back pain.


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## mycrofft (Dec 14, 2012)

I am a straight male former firefighter in all-male service (just as they got first females), former EMT in mixed service, RN in military and sheriff dept.....


1. If you can meet the physical and educational and emotional demands, welcome aboard. I found mixed crews to be more civil and polite once the men accepted the females (1970's and early 1980's). Just don't use the gender card for excuses or favors, same as not using the cultural card etc. (Yes, there are needs specific to genders, cultures, etc., just don't use them ONLY when you fail or want a perk).

2. There are many sociopathic and sexually stereotyping males , and some females, out there who will more likely lie or try to psychologically or physically dominate a female. Learn what to do to counter these (sometimes dangerous) jerks. Even if it isn't going to work for them, it wastes time and aggravates your workday.

3. There are patients who see females as being more nurturing and less threatening, as a stereotype, than males. It's hard to be a guy on these cases, a male has to think about even his body language*.

*Same with animals. From personal experience, shelter dogs tend to be afraid (and sometimes consequently dangerous) if you have a beard, wear sunglasses, wear a hat, or are male. Probably refers to the same people as we discussed in point 2 above.


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## Rhonda (Dec 14, 2012)

When I did my internship I worked with an all female crew. Those 2 ladies were very much respected by fire and LEO. Not once was an ill comment made towards 3 women working on one truck. Fire didn't ask to put our gurney in the ambulance because they knew we could handle ourselves. 
I tend to always take the head of the gurney while lifting because I am 5'11" and I feel the foot end is too low. If my partner is taller than me then they get the head end not because of weight but because of height. 
With that being said I am rather sick of girls who think just because they are female they can say oh pity me this job is so hard and no one respects me because I am female. Stop crying and do something about it. Like stated before respect is earned not given out because you are female.


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## Akulahawk (Dec 15, 2012)

I have worked with some fantastic people throughout the years. Notice I didn't say "women" or "men." It's because it didn't matter. Every company I have ever worked for instituted some kind of a lift test. While most guys could pass it, some couldn't. Most girls could pass it as well, if they used proper lifting technique. Some of them couldn't. 

Now I do know from prior education that women will generally never be as strong as a man, given equivalent physical training. Women won't bulk up like the guys do anyway. As long as the lift test is reasonable, based on actual job requirements, and is identical for males and females, I really don't care who I'm partnered up with as long as they pass that functional lift test.

Try as we might, because of the nature of EMS, we will not ever completely remove a physical component from the job. That part of the job must be examined and re-examined periodically so realistic functional exams be done for everyone's safety. We can use machinery and technology and whatnot to lighten the load a lot of the time, but there will always be instances where human muscle needs to be used. It's those times that the lift test should be tailored for. 

As far as having LGB partners, I've been partnered up with each. Never had an issue. Although I must admit, as a guy, it's a bit different discussing "hot chicks" with a female partner... but then again, it's part of conversation that occurs on the job. It was a little weirder talking about other guys with a gay partner. Regardless, I learned a LOT from those partners that has helped me interact with people over the years. 

For me, it's mostly a non-issue.


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## Kevinf (Dec 16, 2012)

What do you all think a general lift test should be? My last call with my current partner was for a bariatric transport. Our patient was over 450lbs and we had an unpowered stretcher. Both my partner and I weigh ~160lbs. So each of us needed to lift 150% or more of our body weight in order to get the stretcher locked in the raised position. I won't lie, that wasn't an easy lift by any means.

Should all companies have a policy requiring a lift assist for loads greater than 300lbs?
Make the lift test a flat 150lbs to waist level?
Is anyone here not able to meet that requirement?


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## Veneficus (Dec 16, 2012)

Kevinf said:


> What do you all think a general lift test should be? My last call with my current partner was for a bariatric transport. Our patient was over 450lbs and we had an unpowered stretcher. Both my partner and I weigh ~160lbs. So each of us needed to lift 150% or more of our body weight in order to get the stretcher locked in the raised position. I won't lie, that wasn't an easy lift by any means.
> 
> Should all companies have a policy requiring a lift assist for loads greater than 300lbs?
> Make the lift test a flat 150lbs to waist level?
> Is anyone here not able to meet that requirement?



No offense, but I think that was absolutley stupid.

That is how people go out on disability.


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## JDallas (Dec 16, 2012)

I live in an area with combined  volly fire/ems.
For the last 7 years, the Captain of our lowly fire station has been Doris VanHorn. We're the smallest, most insignificant station (about two-three runs per week) in San Bernardino County (two-three runs per minue),yet notheless the name Doris VanHorn is well-known and respected.
About 50% of our personell are female. With only two exceptions, all our EMTs are females. EMS/Fire service is so largely female in Trona that nobody considers females incapable of, or out of place in, emergency services.


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## Kevinf (Dec 16, 2012)

Kevinf said:


> What do you all think a general lift test should be? My last call with my current partner was for a bariatric transport. Our patient was over 450lbs and we had an unpowered stretcher. Both my partner and I weigh ~160lbs. So each of us needed to lift 150% or more of our body weight in order to get the stretcher locked in the raised position. I won't lie, that wasn't an easy lift by any means.
> 
> Should all companies have a policy requiring a lift assist for loads greater than 300lbs?
> Make the lift test a flat 150lbs to waist level?
> Is anyone here not able to meet that requirement?





Veneficus said:


> No offense, but I think that was absolutley stupid.
> 
> That is how people go out on disability.



And your opinion on the specifics of the proposed lift test are? Is 150lbs too much yet? Should it be proportional to body weight?


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## Brandon O (Dec 16, 2012)

A minimum lifting standard should be flat, not scaled, unless they're planning on scaling your patients for you too.

Maybe a 200lb barbell deadlift (this is deeper than most stretcher lifts would be) for five reps.


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## rennex (Dec 16, 2012)

Kevinf said:


> What do you all think a general lift test should be? My last call with my current partner was for a bariatric transport. Our patient was over 450lbs and we had an unpowered stretcher. Both my partner and I weigh ~160lbs. So each of us needed to lift 150% or more of our body weight in order to get the stretcher locked in the raised position. I won't lie, that wasn't an easy lift by any means.
> 
> Should all companies have a policy requiring a lift assist for loads greater than 300lbs?
> Make the lift test a flat 150lbs to waist level?
> Is anyone here not able to meet that requirement?



I believe having a bariatric patient is a trigger for "consider additional resources".

My back aches thinking about picking up a 450 pound guy with just one partner :blink:


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## abckidsmom (Dec 16, 2012)

rennex said:


> I believe having a bariatric patient is a trigger for "consider additional resources".
> 
> My back aches thinking about picking up a 450 pound guy with just one partner :blink:



Yep. In know I am just a female  but my limit for me and a partner is somewhere around 300, depending on their shape. If its a 6'5" 300 pound guy, that's a different story altogether than a 4'10" 300 pound guy. The 6'5" one is way easier to lift.


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## mycrofft (Dec 16, 2012)

I wonder if repetitive/cumulative spinal and other trauma (see ventral hernias) make females and little guys more prone to eventual loss of lifting capacity? I know I still remember the tricks and body mechanics, but at this point all it does it enable me to get a load up that's really going to hurt me. Over time, I feel most med techs and nurses etc have some degree of back injury.


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## DrParasite (Dec 16, 2012)

Kevinf said:


> My last call with my current partner was for a bariatric transport. Our patient was over 450lbs and we had an unpowered stretcher. Both my partner and I weigh ~160lbs. So each of us needed to lift 150% or more of our body weight in order to get the stretcher locked in the raised position. I won't lie, that wasn't an easy lift by any means.


all bariatric calls should get at least 2 extra people (2nd crew, FD, Rescue, etc).  I'm 260 lb (and not all muscle). my partners have ranged from 160 lbs to 300 lbs.  If we get a 450 lb person on a non-emergency run, we are calling for assistance.  They aren't dying, and I am not getting hurt on a non-emergency run. 

If we get a 911 call and the person says they are over 450 lbs, that's an automatic rescue dispatch, as well as another BLS if we have them available.  Can always cancel them, but if you need them, you will need the help.

male or female, it doesn't matter; if they are above 350, call for help.


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## Veneficus (Dec 16, 2012)

Kevinf said:


> And your opinion on the specifics of the proposed lift test are? Is 150lbs too much yet? Should it be proportional to body weight?



I would use 150lbs as the absolute upper limit because I know most agencies will give up provider safety for economics. 

In the interest of provider safety, I would suggest capping it at 100lbs to the waist. (Not because I think people can't lift 150lbs, but I am aware of the degenerative damage over time and think it is better to overestimate the need for extra resources than to figure out after somebody is hurt that it would have been a good idea.)


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## 9D4 (Dec 16, 2012)

My EMT class was almost all female. 15 females and 4 males. Our physicals standards were: Lift 125 lbs waist high without partner, 250 with a partner. I thought those were pretty fair. Instructors said that in non-emergency settings, cap it at 250 for 2 providers, call for assistance for more. In emergency, go for 300 together, call for assistance for more than 300.


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## Brandon O (Dec 16, 2012)

blittle said:


> Instructors said that in non-emergency settings, cap it at 250 for 2 providers, call for assistance for more. In emergency, go for 300 together, call for assistance for more than 300.



Realistically, this is probably a reasonable rule of thumb. Just remember that it's meant for boosting and loading the stretcher; if you have a gnarly stairchair ahead of you, or possibly even a bed-to-bed slide that looks challenging, that weight may still be doable but could prove sketchy.

If there's a lesson here, it's for everyone to understand the gap between "doable" and "safe," and that impatience is not a good enough reason to ignore it.


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## mycrofft (Dec 16, 2012)

DrParasite said:


> all bariatric calls should get at least 2 extra people (2nd crew, FD, Rescue, etc).  I'm 260 lb (and not all muscle). my partners have ranged from 160 lbs to 300 lbs.  If we get a 450 lb person on a non-emergency run, we are calling for assistance.  They aren't dying, and I am not getting hurt on a non-emergency run.
> 
> If we get a 911 call and the person says they are over 450 lbs, that's an automatic rescue dispatch, as well as another BLS if we have them available.  Can always cancel them, but if you need them, you will need the help.
> 
> male or female, it doesn't matter; if they are above 350, call for help.



'S all good until you're carrying them down the narrow twisty hall or the mobile home steps to the ambulance litter, and it's one person wide.


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## Jon (Dec 17, 2012)

Many of the lift tests I've seen call for supporting 1/2 of a backboard with 250 or 300lbs on it. That's realistic. Many of them also have a component of lifting and moving a first-in bag. The best one also called for 2 minutes of CPR after carrying bag and monitor.

That isn't the same as a stretcher w/ the same weight, though. Off the cuff, a standard MX-Pro Stryker stretcher weighs close to 80lbs empty. A Power-Pro is like 130lbs.

I've had bariatric runs where I've looked at my assist crew and said "this is gonna suck no matter what, but I know we can do it" - that was a 450+ pounder that had to go up a flight of stairs. In the end, though - if you're uncomfortable, don't do it and get more help.


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## Veneficus (Dec 17, 2012)

mycrofft said:


> 'S all good until you're carrying them down the narrow twisty hall or the mobile home steps to the ambulance litter, and it's one person wide.



I agree with parasite, at that point it is a rescue. 

Been there, done that. 

It is not worth the risk to the provider. While altruistic self sacrifice may seem admirable, the fact is these people are chronically ill and have lost significant quality of life and are likely on the way out. 

Destroying your health and family for them doesn't serve any good. Yea it sucks, but let's be realistic, who is paying for you and your family when you get hurt being the hero?


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