# Body Armor / Bullet Proof Vests



## MMiz (May 17, 2004)

Our company for the longest time just did transfers, and only six months ago got their first 911 contract.  We work in one of the most wealthy counties in the country, and crime is of little concern.  One "Basic" just went out and got a bullet-proof vest, and wears it like a badge of honor.  He's also the guy with the "Johnny Trauma" belt, and with every little gadget you can think of.

I've heard mixed things about wearing a vest, and the advantages of wearing one in a vehicle crash, but still don't think the cost is worth it in the end.  I also feel safe where I work, and think common sense is often better than body armor.

Anyone else wear it?  Thoughts or comments?


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## SafetyPro2 (May 17, 2004)

Unless I was working in a high-crime area, I wouldn't bother with it.

Good procedure can often forestall the need for such protection on the EMS side. If we get a call that involves any criminal activity, domestic violence, drugs or suicide, we respond but hold a block out until PD declares the scene safe.

Obviously, you won't necessarily know every time and things can still happen. If someone feels safer wearing a vest, I wouldn't razz them for it...though it sounds like your guy's doing it more to be a show-off. Personally though, I don't see the need where I am right now.


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## lastcode (May 20, 2004)

Is your freind wearing it on the outside?  I have seen some EMTs wear it on the outside of their shirt and I think that is a huge huge no no.  I know that when I work I want to look as little like a cop as possible.  You may go through that door for a call that is Shortness of Breath, and find out it is a domestic and the guy who just finished beating his wife is on drugs.   He might be ready to shoot the first cop through that door.  I never want to wear a white shirt with badge or a vest.  Just give me a polo shirt with my squads emblem and I will be happy.


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## SafetyPro2 (May 21, 2004)

We kick that problem around on the FD some...looking like a cop, that is. Wearing the navy blue uniform and badge, we do tend to look like the cops in their black uniform and badge. That's why I don't mind showing up to calls in bunker pants...at least makes it clear I'm not a cop.

Of course, they can have a disadvantage too. Yellow bunker pants with reflective trim tend to stand out more than a black PD uniform, so if you've got someone looking for a target... <shrug>


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## ffemt8978 (Jul 12, 2004)

I have some body armor that I wore at a previous job, and am not entirely opposed to EMS personnel wearing it.

The type I wear is easily concealed underneath a uniform shirt.

My previous department was talking about purchasing two or three external vests for EMT's to wear on high risk calls.  I don't know if they ever purchased them, since I moved before they decided.

I see that they are now coming out with EMS specific body armor, though.

EMS Body Armor


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## Chimpie (Jul 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by ffemt8978_@Jul 12 2004, 05:41 PM
> * I see that they are now coming out with EMS specific body armor, though.
> 
> EMS Body Armor *


 Are you sure this is the right link?    

Chimp


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## ffemt8978 (Jul 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Chimpie+Jul 12 2004, 04:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (Chimpie @ Jul 12 2004, 04:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-ffemt8978_@Jul 12 2004, 05:41 PM
> * I see that they are now coming out with EMS specific body armor, though.
> 
> EMS Body Armor *


Are you sure this is the right link?    

Chimp [/b][/quote]
 Yeah, you just have to click on the products tab and then on armor.

Here is the direct link.

EMS Body Armor (Direct)


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## Chimpie (Jul 13, 2004)

> _Originally posted by ffemt8978_@Jul 12 2004, 07:27 PM
> * Yeah, you just have to click on the products tab and then on armor.
> 
> Here is the direct link.
> ...


 Geesh... makin me work here.   :angry:


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## DFDEMS (Jul 15, 2004)

Here, some people wear them, mainly at night.  I think its a very, very  small % of people here. We also look like PD (blue, with a badge)

As far as wearing them on the outside I think thats just plain stupidity.(kinda like my spelling is). I think on some scenes it would start you off on the wrong foot and take you farther down the road of getting beat.

As far as staging for PD some crews do, some dont. I have made and transported prior to PD ever arriving on occasion ( they are short manpower in a big way here I think). Not the smartest thing I have ever done to be sure. 

I have heard stories about a guy on the job here that will get out of the truck and walk around the block if the partner wants to stage so he can start pt care earlier.

I have heard people here say that if you feel that unsafe that you need to wear a vest then you should probably try working somewhere else or a different line of work. 

I have worked at places that provided them (and I wore it on certain calls), just cant see wearing it on the outside.  To each his own, hope he isnt your partner

Stay safe


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## ffemt8978 (Jul 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by DFDEMS_@Jul 15 2004, 02:14 PM
> * I have heard people here say that if you feel that unsafe that you need to wear a vest then you should probably try working somewhere else or a different line of work.
> *


 Correct me if I'm wrong here.

I seem to remember that the paramedics involved in the North LA Bank Robbery a few years ago were sued because they did not come into what they were informed was an unsafe scene.

This is the robbery where the suspects were both killed after a MASSIVE shoot-out with LAPD.  The second suspect's family (the one that died in front of their getaway car) said that LAPD and LAFD let the suspect lay there and die without doing anything for them.  I remember at the time the LAPD was looking for a possible 3rd suspect so nobody thought the scene was safe.

Maybe SafetyPro has some more information on this one.

But remember, you do have a duty to act while on the ambulance.  And every family can find a lawyer that says you failed in that duty.


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## SafetyPro2 (Jul 16, 2004)

> _Originally posted by ffemt8978+Jul 15 2004, 10:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (ffemt8978 @ Jul 15 2004, 10:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-DFDEMS_@Jul 15 2004, 02:14 PM
> * I have heard people here say that if you feel that unsafe that you need to wear a vest then you should probably try working somewhere else or a different line of work.
> *


Correct me if I'm wrong here.

I seem to remember that the paramedics involved in the North LA Bank Robbery a few years ago were sued because they did not come into what they were informed was an unsafe scene.

This is the robbery where the suspects were both killed after a MASSIVE shoot-out with LAPD.  The second suspect's family (the one that died in front of their getaway car) said that LAPD and LAFD let the suspect lay there and die without doing anything for them.  I remember at the time the LAPD was looking for a possible 3rd suspect so nobody thought the scene was safe.

Maybe SafetyPro has some more information on this one.

But remember, you do have a duty to act while on the ambulance.  And every family can find a lawyer that says you failed in that duty.[/b][/quote]
Both LAPD and LAFD, as well as LAPD Officers James Vojtecky and John Futrell (who had the suspect in their custody), were indeed sued by the family of Emil Matasareanu, who claimed that he was not provided medical treatment while in custody which resulted in his death. The lawsuit resulted in a mistrial with a deadlocked (9-3) jury. In 2000, the family agreed to drop the lawsuit if Officers Vojtecky and Futrell were barred from filing countersuit for malicious prosecution.

Stephen Yagman, the lawyer who represented the shooter's family, has a long history of suing the LAPD on civil rights matters (including claiming the department is in violation of RICO) and is also suing the government on behalf of the Guantanimo detainees.

On a related note, at least partially as a result of the shootout, the LAPD acquired this beast.







The truck's known as a B.E.A.R. (Ballistic Engineered Armored Response vehicle), manufactured by Lenco Armored Vehicles, and is essentially an armored transport and ambulance. It can be used to deploy SWAT officers into hostile areas, as well as rescue downed officers and civilians from such areas. This was a big problem at the North Hollywood shootout where numerous wounded civlians and officers were unable to be extricated during the shooting. One LAPD officer lost nearly 40% of his blood from his wounds...he survived, but was medically retired.

There's a neat video of one of the L.A. County Sheriff's Department's B.E.A.R.s at National Tactical Officers Foundation Virtual Trade Show


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## ffemt8978 (Jul 17, 2004)

I WANT ONE!

Excuse me for a second while I wipe the drool off my keyboard.


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## croaker260 (Jul 25, 2004)

You can be sued for anything, whether your right or wrong. You can not and should not be held liable for entering an enviroment you are not trained or equiped adiquately for. I look at it like any other hazardous situation....you need the appropriate training and equipment. And you need a risk assessment.
Would you be liable if you refused to go into a hazmat enviroment with out appropriate haz mat gear?
Would you be liable if you refused to repell down a cliff to a pt, if you had no training to repell, and did not have a harness or helmet?

Then why are you held liable if you are not tactically trained, tacticaly protected, and tactically equiped going into a potentially tactical enviroment? A duty to act is not a duty to be stupid.

I had an hour discussion on this very topic with my last EMT-B class I taught.
Here is what you have to keep in mind...you do not only place your self at risk. You place EVERONE at risk. Do you think other medics are going to just let you die if you go down, or officers, no we are going to come after you ..and get shot ourselves.  It is far better to do the long established practice of staging on high risk calls. 
Life is like a coin, you can spend it anywaay you like, but you can only spend it once.  You may (most likely may not) save a single life by sacrificing yours, but how many lives could you have saved through your everyday non herioc actions if you had lived? 
I have many fire department friends, but we have this debate constantly. Being herioc doesnt keep you from dying, often uselessly. Case in point: The recent death of Lt. Brenda Cowen. (you can find a lot of information about her death here: http://www.hultgren.org/memorial/b.cowan/index.html
As a new LT on an ALS engine company, she led her crew into a KNOWN hostile situation a domestic with a subject shot (there was some debate as to if they knew this or not, but last I heard dispatch taped indicated they did know)..they saw a female in the front yard, pulled up and were sniped. She died, another crew member was shot and I believe medically retired. The crew, and the responding ambulance crew were pinned down for a long time until they could be extricated by SWAT.
Now I am sorry for her death, I really am, Lexington is my home town. By all acounts she was a remarkable woman. But one moment of disregarding common sense because of a fire department typical mentality, killed her, took a career from one of her friends (whose life she was responsible for) , put other police and EMS workers in grave risk to save her, and traumatized her whole department, and her family.  For a patient who was already dead. In short she died uselessly. We should learn from her mistakes.

We dont just have a duty to act, we have a duty to act responsibly.


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## ffemt8978 (Jul 25, 2004)

My point was the situation that is declared "safe" but as we walk in (or shortly thereafter), the whole situation gets FedExed to hell in a hand cart.  Also, we have an obligation to enter scenes that are somewhat unsafe.

Don't believe me?  Think about your last MVA (rollover, requires extrication, fuel leaking everywhere, etc...)  How long would it take to make that scene safe?  Let's face it, we take risks that we deem are appropriate for the situation.


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## croaker260 (Jul 26, 2004)

My response was to the implication that we MUST enter unsafe scenes, and using the LA incident as justification for that. 
For our MVA's we mitigate risks, by haveing a hose line pulled from the local fire dept when their is fuel. we have turn outs, helmets, and eye protection, and we go through basic extrication awareness level training as aminimum. We mitigate risk.
FOr high risk scenes, to mitigate risk, we review common street safety practices (or wich prevention ..i.e. staging..is a major component) we have the scene secured and hazards nulified by Law enforcement. If that is not possible (ie tactical/riot situations) we have the pt removed from the hostile scene to a safer one by those trained to do so. 

Certainly we cannot mitigate all risk, but we take all reasonable steps. Staging, recognition of high risk scenes and PD involvement are all part of that process.
ALL of these steps should be in place before you allow your vest to mitigate your risk for you...as we all know , vest dont always work. They are a tool, not a replacement for common sense. 
As a side note: I do recognize that a secure scene does change and that having PD on scene does not keep problems from happening..sometimes the opposite in fact...

On the original topic of ballistic best, some things to consider, if you take the steps outlined for safe scenes, then chances are that a shooting will happen on the scene you already considered safe, you were just caught by surpirse (as a friend of mine found out on a routine auto accident). Therefore for a vest to be truely effective, you must be prepared to wear it 100% of the time. If you put it on just on the high risk calls, then when you get caught with your pants down, you will also be caught with out your vest on.
Think of it as like your seatbelt. Youll never have time to put it on before an accident. 
Also, considering the close proximity we keep next to some of our pt's, what do you think about a vest that is also puncture resitant (stab or shank vests)?
I also disagree with wearing the vest outside.


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## SafetyPro2 (Nov 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by SafetyPro_@Jul 16 2004, 10:36 AM
> * On a related note, at least partially as a result of the shootout, the LAPD acquired this beast.
> 
> 
> ...


 Just wanted to resurrect this topic as we had an incident in LA today where a gunman attempted to kidnap an employee at the Mexican Consulate, which resulted in a full-out response by the LAPD SWAT team. There's an article, with a nice picture of the B.E.A.R. in action (as an assault vehicle, not an ambulance) at KFWB.com - Police Shoot Hostage-Taker at Mexican Consulate in Los Angeles


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## rescuecpt (Nov 9, 2004)

I think I said this before, if not, I definitely thought it...  "Cool!  I want one!"


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## DonQ (Nov 9, 2004)

I wonder what the price is for one of these...


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## ffemt8978 (Nov 9, 2004)

> _Originally posted by DonQ_@Nov 9 2004, 05:19 PM
> * I wonder what the price is for one of these... *


 If you have to ask, you need to write a grant.


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## rescuecpt (Nov 10, 2004)

> *If you have to ask, you need to write a grant. *



HAHAHHAHA


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