# Responders run over patient



## ffemt8978 (Sep 24, 2009)

http://tampabay.com/news/publicsafe...lly-run-over-victim-they-were-sent-to/1038961


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## Jon (Sep 25, 2009)

Whoops.

The more I think, the more I realize that this could have happened to me... I guess I'll be more careful what's in front of the bay.


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## JPINFV (Sep 25, 2009)

Crew in question?




> Alcohol was a factor, according to a St. Petersburg police report, which was not specific.



Hmm. Gotta love it when the story doesn't mention exactly who was drunk. If this was Boston, I'd put even money between the fire fighters and the patient.


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## Jon (Sep 25, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> Hmm. Gotta love it when the story doesn't mention exactly who was drunk. If this was Boston, I'd put even money between the fire fighters and the patient.


JP... thats not right. Too true, though.


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## JPINFV (Sep 25, 2009)

You know, my views might be different if Boston FD didn't do everything possible to prevent drunk or high fire fighters from responding following the Payne/Cahill LODD a few years ago. Instead of, you know, trying to maintain a drug and alcohol free workplace, they complained about the fact that autopsies were leaked.


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## exodus (Sep 25, 2009)

So why the hell are we blaming the fire fighters? They were told the man was near the station, not RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE DOOR. They truck is high, they can't see right where he is. Okay, so now every time we pull out of our bay, we have to run to the front of the truck to make sure nothing there? 

It's a drunk homeless man who probably did it on purpose... Come on...


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## fiddlesticks (Sep 25, 2009)

well that would suck, that would be a crappy PCR to write up. but i can see how it could happen some of the trucks here are really close to the bay door and if somthing was right in front on the ground i wouldnt see it.


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## Sasha (Sep 25, 2009)

exodus said:


> So why the hell are we blaming the fire fighters? They were told the man was near the station, not RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE DOOR. They truck is high, they can't see right where he is. Okay, so now every time we pull out of our bay, we have to run to the front of the truck to make sure nothing there?
> 
> It's a drunk homeless man who probably did it on purpose... Come on...



Yeah that's it. Blame the victim.


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## VentMedic (Sep 25, 2009)

exodus said:


> So why the hell are we blaming the fire fighters? They were told the man was near the station, not RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE DOOR. They truck is high, they can't see right where he is. Okay, so now every time we pull out of our bay, we have to run to the front of the truck to make sure nothing there?
> 
> It's a drunk homeless man who probably did it on purpose... Come on...


 
If you live in a residential area do you check your driveway for kids and toys laying in front of or behind your vehicle?   

How many have been on a call where someone drove over their kid and you thought it was really stupid of them to pull out without checking? 

In a city with curious kids and tourists attracted to fire trucks and ambulances, one should never assume the path is clear.


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## Seaglass (Sep 25, 2009)

This could've been my department, too. We get walk-in calls occasionally, and there have been near misses in the past--usually when someone was coming in as we were dispatched for another call.

Now it's the responsibility of whoever opens the bay door to make sure everything's clear. But I could easily see someone forgetting on just the wrong night.


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## bunkie (Sep 25, 2009)

exodus said:


> So why the hell are we blaming the fire fighters? They were told the man was near the station, not RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE DOOR. They truck is high, they can't see right where he is. Okay, so now every time we pull out of our bay, we have to run to the front of the truck to make sure nothing there?
> 
> It's a drunk homeless man who probably did it on purpose... Come on...



Or he was disoriented from the wound to his head and blood loss. He couldn't have been _that_ drunk if he was looking for and headed towards help. Often the media will throw things like that in as a way to diffuse the heat from the public.


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## exodus (Sep 25, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Yeah that's it. Blame the victim.



NO! Lets blame the firefighters first, because patients can never do wrong!


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## VentMedic (Sep 25, 2009)

exodus said:


> NO! Lets blame the firefighters first, because patients can never do wrong!


 
The patient was making his way to help.  Maybe that was his first mistake but he might have known how much some hate to leave the station so he probably thought he was doing them a favor by going to them.  

The FFs should have confirmed the location with dispatch. What were they going to do? Drive up and down the street and all around their station? 

The FFs should have known their truck had a blind spot.  Whoever did their training FAILED.

What if this had been a curious child just wanting to get a closer look at the big fire trucks?

No excuses for the FFs.


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## EMSLaw (Sep 25, 2009)

I'm sure nobody feels as bad about it as the firefighters.  I don't know how they wouldn't be able to see him, unless he was literally under the wheels of the truck when the doors went up, but I doubt they intentionally ran the guy over.


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## Aidey (Sep 25, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> The FFs should have confirmed the location with dispatch. What were they going to do? Drive up and down the street and all around their station?



Right. Because drive by callers with cell phones always give the most accurate locations. Dispatch only knows as much as the 911 caller tells them. If dispatch doesn't have an exact location, they aren't going to be able to give the fire crew much. 

I've asked dispatch for clarification on "man down" calls and been told "Yeah, Sorry, we've got nothing else, it was a cell phone caller and all they said was someone was lying on the sidewalk around the corner or 123 street and xyz Street"only to find the patient 1/2 way down the block, still lying there.

Sometimes the only way to find the patient is drive up and down the street and all around the location. You make it sound like having to look for a patient is an absurd idea, and I'm not sure why.


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## firecoins (Sep 25, 2009)

They opened the bay door and didn't see him?    Very curious.  


I am sure calling the dispatcher was worthless unless the dispatcher is looking out the front of the bay door.


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## Sasha (Sep 25, 2009)

exodus said:


> NO! Lets blame the firefighters first, because patients can never do wrong!



Would you feel the same had it been a mother pushing a baby in a stroller? An elderly lady coming in for a blood pressure check? A family member of a FF dropped in for a visit? Would you feel they did it on purpose too?

He was going towards help, and help ran him over. I don't care how fast you want to get your emergency, you check to see if your ENTIRE path is clear first, not just what you can see from the drivers seat knowing very well you have a blind spot.


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## Bosco578 (Sep 26, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Would you feel the same had it been a mother pushing a baby in a stroller? An elderly lady coming in for a blood pressure check? A family member of a FF dropped in for a visit? Would you feel they did it on purpose too?
> 
> He was going towards help, and help ran him over. I don't care how fast you want to get your emergency, you check to see if your ENTIRE path is clear first, not just what you can see from the drivers seat knowing very well you have a blind spot.


 
Gotta agree on this.....how the fk do you not see something in front of you? Are the trucks 18 feet high?


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## Aidey (Sep 26, 2009)

In your personal vehicle can you see what is within 1 foot of the front of your bumper? On taller vehicles there is even a larger blind spot immediately in front of the rig, because the driver can't look straight down. 

If they got in the truck with the bay door closed, and the guy was lying right in front of the door, or even up against it and they opened the door from the truck the victim would have probably been in the trucks blind spot.


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## wvditchdoc (Sep 26, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> The patient was making his way to help. Maybe that was his first mistake but he might have known how much some hate to leave the station so he probably thought he was doing them a favor by going to them.
> 
> The FFs should have confirmed the location with dispatch. What were they going to do? Drive up and down the street and all around their station?
> 
> ...


 
Hate to leave the station? Seriously? Talk about inflammatory. That is a very broad, and incorrect, generalization that I doubt you have any real evidence to back up with. 

According to the article, the location was passed along to them by their dispatch as "near" the station (as this is what was passed along by the 911 callers). 


> The callers to 911 Thursday afternoon said there was a man bleeding from the face near the fire station.


 
What, you haven't gotten jacked up directions while you were running a truck? Each and every time the directions were crystal clear? I seriously doubt it. 

Considering that the vehicle's front tires missed the victim and he was actually struck by the rear wheels leads me to believe that the patient was indeed in the blind spot. Even the police seem to agree in their investigation....



> "Neither Springer or Bucholz saw, or could have seen, Lenox in the position he had placed himself in," the police report states.





> The vehicle that ran over him is a Ford F-650, a 10-ton truck with a boxy rear bay used to store medical equipment and treat patients. The vehicle sits high.
> 
> "They couldn't see him in front of the truck," said Lt. Granata. "You can't see the ground."
> 
> Rescue 5's front wheels didn't hit Lenox, but the undercarriage caught and rolled him. The crew stopped after they felt the truck's rear tires roll over his legs.


 
If it had been a child the outcome would be non the less tragic. 

It is very easy for you sit there behind you monitor and boldly proclaim "No excuses for the FFs." How do you know that? Were you there, were you driving? Did you witness the accident? 

How about a 


> Wow, that is terrible...hope the drunk homeless guy makes it and kudos to the FF's for taking care of him and continuing to work!


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## Sasha (Sep 26, 2009)

Aidey said:


> In your personal vehicle can you see what is within 1 foot of the front of your bumper? On taller vehicles there is even a larger blind spot immediately in front of the rig, because the driver can't look straight down.
> 
> If they got in the truck with the bay door closed, and the guy was lying right in front of the door, or even up against it and they opened the door from the truck the victim would have probably been in the trucks blind spot.



And knowing they have a significant blind spot in front of their vehicle, they should check that it's clear prior to driving away. Do you merge into a lane without a quick look to make sure you wont be mowing down another car that's sitting in your blind spot, in the ambulance or your personal vehicle? 



> How about a
> 
> Quote:
> Wow, that is terrible...hope the drunk homeless guy makes it and kudos to the FF's for taking care of him and continuing to work!



Kudos for what?? Doing their job after they ran over their patient?


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## Aidey (Sep 26, 2009)

All vehicles blind spots, do you check yours every single time you get ready to move you car?


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## VentMedic (Sep 26, 2009)

Aidey said:


> All vehicles blind spots, do you check yours every single time you get ready to move you car?


 
Are any of your stations in a city or residential area?  Do you not have any safety measures in place?

We have a wide variety of people approaching the stations from the elderly who want a BP done, curious kids, homeless, tourists who want a picture to mothers who leave their babies at some door in hopes someone will find it or not depending on the situation.   St. Petersburg is definitely an area like this.


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## wvditchdoc (Sep 26, 2009)

Sasha said:


> And knowing they have a significant blind spot in front of their vehicle, they should check that it's clear prior to driving away. They were inside their bay with the doors closed! :censored:
> 
> Do you merge into a lane without a quick look to make sure you wont be mowing down another car that's sitting in your blind spot, in the ambulance or your personal vehicle?
> 
> ...


 

So it's that cut and dry huh? :censored::censored:

Have you ever hit/run over and seriously injured a pedestrian? I did, almost 15 years ago shortly after becoming a Paramedic. The details of how it happened aren't important, but suffice it to say this young lady was seriously injured. She ended up with a Closed Head Injury and I flew her to the Level 1 Trauma Center. We can detach ourselves from the majority of the calls we run because we were not the instigator of said call. Little different when *you* are the one that injured the person you are working on.

You, and everyone else for that matter, can scoff and make snide remarks and comments all you want. Unless you were witness to the event or until you've "been there, done that", you have no room to judge anyone. 

We can debate the "shoulda", "coulda", "woulda" all freaking day, the point is none of us were there and we are basing our statements/opinions on a crappy news article.


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## VentMedic (Sep 26, 2009)

Because *this is NOT the first time* this has happened it the reason why others have learned and implemented whatever policy and procedure necessary to avoid this. 

You don't hear about it happening very often because FDs in cities do know there is a chance somebody might be in their way when those doors open.


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## Sasha (Sep 26, 2009)

wvditchdoc said:


> So it's that cut and dry huh? :censored::censored:
> 
> Have you ever hit/run over and seriously injured a pedestrian? I did, almost 15 years ago shortly after becoming a Paramedic. The details of how it happened aren't important, but suffice it to say this young lady was seriously injured. She ended up with a Closed Head Injury and I flew her to the Level 1 Trauma Center. We can detach ourselves from the majority of the calls we run because we were not the instigator of said call. Little different when *you* are the one that injured the person you are working on.
> 
> ...



There was no excuse to run over this patient. None at all. What kind of person does not check to make sure the entire path in front of them is clear, not just the path they can see from the drivers seat? Someone who should NOT be driving an emergency vehicle.

You can make excuses all you want. It was carelessness plain and simple. 

I hope the guy sues the heck out of the FD and buys himself a nice house so he's not homeless anymore and people wont be so quick to shrug their shoulders should he ever get hit by an ambulance again. If he survives.


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## Aidey (Sep 26, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Are any of your stations in a city or residential area?  Do you not have any safety measures in place?
> 
> We have a wide variety of people approaching the stations from the elderly who want a BP done, curious kids, homeless, tourists who want a picture to mothers who leave their babies at some door in hopes someone will find it or not depending on the situation.   St. Petersburg is definitely an area like this.




Vent, I was referring to personal vehicles, not just Ambulances/Fire Trucks. Think about when someone is backing out of a home garage. They probably have a 4-5 foot blind spot on the ground immediately behind the bumper. If the garage door was closed when they got in the car, they would never see anything lying there.


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## VentMedic (Sep 26, 2009)

Aidey said:


> Vent, I was referring to personal vehicles, not just Ambulances/Fire Trucks. Think about when someone is backing out of a home garage. They probably have a 4-5 foot blind spot on the ground immediately behind the bumper. If the garage door was closed when they got in the car, they would never see anything lying there.


 
And that was my point that I posted earlier.

However, if this had been a regular citizen that backed out without looking these same FF/EMTs and some here would be demanding that person be jailed and drug/alcohol tested.


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## 281mustang (Sep 28, 2009)

firecoins said:


> They opened the bay door and didn't see him?    Very curious.


 Nope, St. Pete Fire has very big Rescues, much bigger/taller than your average ambulance. From the driver seat your blind spot is probably around 5'-8'. I haven't actually run any calls at station 5 but I did pretty much all of my ride time at 6 and 3 when in EMT school.

A couple days ago I talked to the medic that transported him to Bayfront, for whatever it's worth his personal opinion was that it was the pt's fault.


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## PotatoMedic (Sep 28, 2009)

Not sure if this was mentioned.

From what I have read on another forum they were dispatched to the fire station that is near them (a block away I don't know) where the pt was reported to be.  They were not expecting the pt to be at their station.  

Not sure what all is correct or not.  Just trying to bring in another side of the story.


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## Sasha (Sep 28, 2009)

281mustang said:


> Nope, St. Pete Fire has very big Rescues, much bigger/taller than your average ambulance. From the driver seat your blind spot is probably around 5'-8'. I haven't actually run any calls at station 5 but I did pretty much all of my ride time at 6 and 3 when in EMT school.
> 
> A couple days ago I talked to the medic that transported him to Bayfront, for whatever it's worth his personal opinion was that it was the pt's fault.



Of course they're not going to accept personal responsiblity.


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## 281mustang (Sep 28, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Of course they're not going to accept personal responsiblity.


 The medic I talked to works for the private ambulance service in our county(Sunstar), he wasn't a Fire Medic...


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## exitandleave (Sep 28, 2009)

We have a suburban that we run on rescues, and the front blind spot is probably more than five feet, and a heavy rescue (F450)that is probably about ten feet. 

Both are parked less than three feet from the doors. Not that unbelievable that we wouldn't see something or someone lying there, especially if we open the doors after we get into the truck like we do when we run a small crew.

We get dispatched for calls at or around our station frequently, and if we don't immediately see the Pt, we pull the truck out. If we do see the Pt when we respond- first person in goes to the Pt, second pulls the truck out. Can't work from a truck too well when you have to keep going back into the bay to get to it. 

It was an accident. I don't think any one is to blame. I have never checked the front of the bay before pulling out. But I've never heard of something like this happening before, either. 

I'll put it to that- it was an accident that could have happened to my department, and probably a good majority of departments out there. 

Hopefully we learn from this instead of pointing fingers at the firefighters, the dispatcher or the Pt.


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## VentMedic (Sep 29, 2009)

exitandleave said:


> It was an accident. I don't think any one is to blame. I have never checked the front of the bay before pulling out. But I've never heard of something like this happening before, either.


 
Accidents can be avoided. Also, rarely are things "just accidents" which is why we use MVC rather than MVA for terminology now.

Not too long ago an ambulance backing down an alley ran over a lady. They failed to use a spotter. 

There have been other injuries and deaths that have occurred from leaving or backing at the station which is why many FDs do have some type of safety plan in place. 



exitandleave said:


> Hopefully we learn from this instead of pointing fingers at the firefighters, the dispatcher or the Pt.


 
The dispatcher wasn't driving the truck and didn't run over the patient. At the time of the call the patient could have been "near the station" but managed to get to the doors by the time the trucks were ready to move. And no, the person who called it to 911 did their part so they are not to blame either. If I saw a person laying at the front door of a fire station, it would be reasonable to believe there are people there can can provide assistance. I would not have to park my car in a no parking area, risk the safety of my passengers and wait for someone to open the door. Chances are if they didn't see this guy they probably would not see me kneeling beside him either as they were not looking. Again, this could have been anyone from just someone taking a shortcut to a curious child. Some safety issues must be addressed and they should assume some of their own responsibility in this if nothing else other than to keep it from happening again.

Has anyone read the comments made by so called FFs and EMT(P)s at the end of the article? They are just shameful and give blackeyes to any professional FF and/or EMT(P). I can not believe some judge the patient and say "job well done" for almost killing a "bum". Do we have so little respect for human life without judging how others live their life.


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## exitandleave (Sep 29, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Accidents can be avoided. Also, rarely are things "just accidents" which is why we use MVC rather than MVA for terminology now.



I don't think they did it on purpose, nor do I think they were negligent in not checking the front of the bay before pulling out. They may have been ignorant- not stupid. Before reading this article I could have found myself in the same situation, not because I'm stupid or careless, but because it was never brought to my attention. Just one of those things that happens because it happens.




VentMedic said:


> Not too long ago an ambulance backing down an alley ran over a lady. They failed to use a spotter.


They were backing down an unfamiliar alley. To be honest, I use a spotter because I'm more worried about scratching the truck or hitting an object. The fact that a spotter may notice a person is not my main thought. That's not to say that I don't understand the importance and the dangers of backing a rig up.



VentMedic said:


> There have been other injuries and deaths that have occurred from leaving or backing at the station which is why many FDs do have some type of safety plan in place.



We require a spotter to back our trucks up in our station and on scene whenever feasible. Like I said, we're a small department and I've never heard of someone running over a patient in front of their bay doors.




VentMedic said:


> The dispatcher wasn't driving the truck and didn't run over the patient. At the time of the call the patient could have been "near the station" but managed to get to the doors by the time the trucks were ready to move. And no, the person who called it to 911 did their part so they are not to blame either. If I saw a person laying at the front door of a fire station, it would be reasonable to believe there are people there can can provide assistance.


I'm was not crediting or criticizing the dispatcher, or the caller. From the sounds of it, everyone performed as they should have.  



VentMedic said:


> I would not have to park my car in a no parking area, risk the safety of my passengers and wait for someone to open the door. Chances are if they didn't see this guy they probably would not see me kneeling beside him either as they were not looking. Again, this could have been anyone from just someone taking a shortcut to a curious child. Some safety issues must be addressed and they should assume some of their own responsibility in this if nothing else other than to keep it from happening again.



The difference here is that anyone, save an unconscious or other wise  incapacitated person should have enough sense to move when the door opens. We have kids that like to use our apron to ride their bikes. When the door opens, they all scatter into the grass. Also- these people are standing, not laying. Adding 3 or 4 feet to a child, and 4 or 5 feet for an adult. It may stand that I'd be more appalled had they run over a standing patient. Just a reasonable assumption that I make when pulling the truck out, however flawed it may be.  




VentMedic said:


> Has anyone read the comments made by so called FFs and EMT(P)s at the end of the article? They are just shameful and give blackeyes to any professional FF and/or EMT(P). I can not believe some judge the patient and say "job well done" for almost killing a "bum". Do we have so little respect for human life without judging how others live their life.



It is incredibly disrespectful and disgusting that people are talking like that. Especially if they really are from the department. Absolutely wrong to talk about a person that way. 

With all that said- I fully agree that this is an unfortunate accident that we should benefit from. Whether it means opening the door before we get into the truck every time or whatever it takes. One thing my employer does have is surveillance cameras that cover the front and rear bays, as well as the bay personnel doors, and the dispatcher can check it before opening the bay. Our central station is combined with dispatch- our satellite stations have nothing like this. I'm not sure whether these were installed for security, or for something very similar to this. Either way- it works.

Have some empathy for everyone involved.


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## paramedichopeful (Sep 29, 2009)

all I am going to say is that I feel truly sorry for all persons involved in this situation. I refuse to take a side in this because I do not have all the facts and I wasn't there. So therefore, it wouldn't be right for me to point fingers. I try to cool the situation down, not jump in on it myself. Because of that, I will say nothing more as it would just be throwing gas into a barrel of burning trash. Fuel and fire spell inferno and destruction. I understand things can get a little heated on here when opinions and viewpoints collide, but we must be fair in our judgments (if we even make any judgments). I'm sorry if I have angered anybody; it was not my intention. I am simply trying to neutralize the situation some and hopefully avoid an inferno. I would appreciate help in doing the same. Remember, we are civil servants, and it is ok to have opinions. Just don't let it infiltrate.


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## BLSBoy (Sep 29, 2009)

This isn't FDNY, or Philly FD, where your bay doors open right onto the sidewalk. 
This station is set back far from the sidewalk with a large front apron. 
Unless I am in the City, or another location where I have to walk to my truck, I don't check who/what is in front of my vehicle. 
What if he laid down on railroad tracks?
Or the street?

Should he survive, he would make an excellent public service ad for why NOT to drink.


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## 46Young (Sep 29, 2009)

When I worked hosp. based 911 in NY, we were stationed on street corners. On two seperate occasions drunks have fell off of my back bumper (sleeping there, apparently) after we drove down the block while responding. Our CSL was at National/Roosevelt Ave in Corona Queens, IFO the 7 train 103 st station, and near a bunch of bars, restaurants, etc. It's apparently popular for this particular ethnicity of intox to fall asleep in gutters, against buildings, on the corner, or in the middle of the street on the double yellow! I've thankfully avoided hitting those in the gutter. 

It would have been all to easy for one of these drunks to choose the space in front of my ambulance to sleep. When we awaken for a job, we check the screen, then pull off, as does practically everyone else in the city. I've treated several "man under" pts after being extricated from under the train. Other drunk pts have leaned too far over looking for the train.........BAM! We're picking up body parts down the block (elevated platform). 

I once found a drunk sleeping on my cot as I was going to the back for gear after pulling up onscene. I've caught others on numerous occasions trying to get inside the back. Drunks know that an ambulance will take them to the hospital, and may list about in the general vicinity of one, hoping to get picked up.

In the ghetto, I've avoided teens jumping out in front of the bus, daring us to hit them, so they could sue. In that same ghetto, I've witnessed numerous people walking in the middle of the street, not looking, no regard for oncoming traffic.

My point? Darwinism! If you get killed for actions brought on by your own stupidity, then it's your own fault. In this case we won't really know who's at fault as we're all trying to Monday morning quaterback this thing. If the guy was several blocks away when the call when out, he basically made the choice to lay down in front of the bay. That's what I can infer from the article. No knocking on the door, no  ringing the doorbell, but deliberately laying in front of the door. Who does that? No one acting in their right mind would. He may have been intox, but he still did what he did.


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## Sasha (Sep 30, 2009)

> nor do I think they were negligent in not checking the front of the bay before pulling out.



I disagree. They were operating an ambulance without showing due regard. That is negligent.


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## HotelCo (Sep 30, 2009)

Sasha: Your avatar fits in this thread perfectly. Just thought I'd point that out.


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## EMSLaw (Sep 30, 2009)

Sasha said:


> I disagree. They were operating an ambulance without showing due regard. That is negligent.



The question is whether the "reasonably prudent" ambulance driver would check the front of the rig before pulling out of the bay.  Since the "reasonably prudent" ambulance driver is, by definition, perfect and far more prudent than anyone who actually drives an ambulance, he doubtless would check what was right in front of him before he pulled out.  

So, yes, off the cuff, knowing only the facts in the news article, I'd say there's a good case that there was some negligence here.  The ambulance had a duty not to run patients over, they violated it, their violation was the proximate cause of the damages, and obviously, the guy who got run over was damaged.  That's not to say it's a sure winner, but there certainly seems to be a case.


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## VentMedic (Sep 30, 2009)

This is a double header for St. Pete FD this week since:
*Police: Cocaine found at St. Petersburg fire station*
http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/article1038888.ece ​Times Staff Writer 
In Print: Friday, September 25, 2009 



> ST. PETERSBURG — Last week a firefighter found something in a fire station washing machine that has left St. Petersburg Fire Rescue feeling very unclean:
> 
> Cocaine.
> 
> Now the city's police officers are conducting a criminal investigation into the city's firefighters.


 


> Police and fire officials would not release any other details. They would not say what role drug testing could have in the investigation or discuss what actions could be taken against any firefighter linked to the drug. Firefighters from all over the city rotate in and out of the station.


 
The question is "were the FFs tested" from this news article and the other. Right now the union has been saying it is a violation of their rights.


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## Hal9000 (Sep 30, 2009)

Holy crap, that sounds worse than an episode of _Nurse Jackie_.


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## 46Young (Oct 1, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> This is a double header for St. Pete FD this week since:
> *Police: Cocaine found at St. Petersburg fire station*
> http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/article1038888.ece ​Times Staff Writer
> In Print: Friday, September 25, 2009
> ...



the FF that discovered the coke had the integrity to report it promptly (commendable, speaks highly of his/her caliber), instead of going to the person who had it and keeping things quiet. 

There are most likely policies as to what conditions need to be met before one can be mandated to be drug screened. Apparently this situation doesn't fit that criteria. Doesn't make it right, but that's what it sounds like. If I was the offender, I'd probably seek loopholes to avoid any discipline/termination. Perhaps this incident will force a change in policy for the better.


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## rescue99 (Oct 1, 2009)

46Young said:


> the FF that discovered the coke had the integrity to report it promptly (commendable, speaks highly of his/her caliber), instead of going to the person who had it and keeping things quiet.
> 
> There are most likely policies as to what conditions need to be met before one can be mandated to be drug screened. Apparently this situation doesn't fit that criteria. Doesn't make it right, but that's what it sounds like. If I was the offender, I'd probably seek loopholes to avoid any discipline/termination. Perhaps this incident will force a change in policy for the better.



Yeah, like run to the nearest drug treatment program and do a voluntary admit. Then, have a pow-wow with the Chief. Privacy rights will keep the mongers under control. Actions speak louder than words in this situation probably.


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## 46Young (Oct 1, 2009)

Regarding the OP, I took this quote from a thread of the same subject on a different forum :

First - I feel sorry for the 2 jakes who hit this guy. They are most likely in a world of hurt with guilt. They deserve our sympathy and support.

I feel sorry for the family of the guy who was injured. They too are suffering - even if its a know problem for years.

Lastly - I feel little sympathy for the individual who was hit. While there could be exceptional cases (mentally incompentent etc), I personally see this is a case of personal responsibility. You get drunk and become a problem for everyone else. It's his actions that are the root cause of the pain of the everyone else. Does that mean he deseves to die - no. It means that he must accept the consequences of his actions, which may include death. 

Now - can we learn something from this? Yep. For some, it could be a wake up call to ensure the apron is clear before leaving. For others, its an example of why to walk the rig out when leaving. Where I am at, we are more likely to have deer on our apron than a drunk so its really not an issue to us. For an urban environment, it may be a real concern. All can agree that if there is a simple, easy to do item to prevent this, then we should do it. Perhaps not for the drunk, but for ourselves and our mental health. I personally would not want to live with the idea my actions killed another.

+1 on this, although there aren't any deer running around my first due as far as I know.


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## 46Young (Oct 18, 2009)

http://www.firerescue1.com/fire-new...ers-cleared-after-running-over-homeless-man/#

Thoughts?


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## triemal04 (Oct 18, 2009)

46Young said:


> http://www.firerescue1.com/fire-new...ers-cleared-after-running-over-homeless-man/#
> 
> Thoughts?


Oh oh!  It's a cover-up!  That dirty stinking union and those evil firefighters are trying to hide the truth and pass the blame!  :lol:

Come on...you know someone is going to say something along those lines.


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## 46Young (Oct 18, 2009)

triemal04 said:


> Oh oh!  It's a cover-up!  That dirty stinking union and those evil firefighters are trying to hide the truth and pass the blame!  :lol:
> 
> Come on...you know someone is going to say something along those lines.



Or say nothing at all. It's funny when you compare threads reacting to negative press about dual role fire/EMS to that of a single role provider. The fire thread gets way more traffic from the FD lynch mob getting stiff over another opportunity to so some bashing. 

Actually, I was expecting some to discount the fact that the man deliberately staged himself out of sight (he WAS lying down, after all, not standing IFO the doors) and admitted to suicidal ideations not being relevant to the case. 100% blame for the crew, no matter what! Apparently it was a factor, since the crew was cleared from wrongdoing by the LAW (not union influence per se).

I'm not saying that the crew wasn't negligent to some degree in the matter, but the victim did deliberately place himself in harms way and presumably out of sight by laying down. For that reason, I don't feel bad for the fact that he got himself hurt. He made the decision to lay there at that exact spot for an admittedly specific reason. Darwinism. Just like that former EMS employee who got crushed to death by the bay door. Stupid is as stupid does.


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## triemal04 (Oct 18, 2009)

46Young said:


> Or say nothing at all. It's funny when you compare threads reacting to negative press about dual role fire/EMS to that of a single role provider. The fire thread gets way more traffic from the FD lynch mob getting stiff over another opportunity to so some bashing.
> 
> Actually, I was expecting some to discount the fact that the man deliberately staged himself out of sight (he WAS lying down, after all, not standing IFO the doors) and admitted to suicidal ideations not being relevant to the case. 100% blame for the crew, no matter what! Apparently it was a factor, since the crew was cleared from wrongdoing by the LAW (not union influence per se).


Naw, it makes perfect sence that that happens; blind hatred, prejudice and ignorance tend to make people act that way.

I am honestly curious why the guy was laying there; was he actually suicidal (I can think of better ways to go than that) or trying to get help, or was he really just completely drunk?  Actually...guess that's not a question; .46...wow.  Even for a chronic alcoholic that's high.  It's odd though; the ambulance left because someone had called in a report of a man down, and the pt was laying there because he wanted help...granted he was drunk, but laying on the apron waiting instead of letting people know you are there makes little sence.  Who knows.


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## BLSBoy (Oct 18, 2009)

triemal04 said:


> It's odd though; the ambulance left because someone had called in a report of a man down, and the pt was laying there because he wanted help...granted he was drunk, but laying on the apron waiting instead of letting people know you are there makes little sence.  Who knows.



Did you read the article, or just ignore it?
He wanted to DIE. Not get help. 
He stated he knew where Rescue 5 was located, called for help, then laid down in front of the bay.


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## triemal04 (Oct 18, 2009)

BLSBoy said:


> Did you read the article, or just ignore it?
> He wanted to DIE. Not get help.
> He stated he knew where Rescue 5 was located, called for help, then laid down in front of the bay.


Why yes, yes I did.  Apparently YOU did NOT.  Nowhere in the linked article does it say the homeless guy was the 911 caller, and nowhere does it say he's even admitted to having tried to kill himself; in fact he claims it wasn't suicide.  When you make statements like that you only make yourself look stupid.


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## BLSBoy (Oct 18, 2009)

triemal04 said:


> Why yes, yes I did.  Apparently YOU did NOT.  Nowhere in the linked article does it say the homeless guy was the 911 caller, and nowhere does it say he's even admitted to having tried to kill himself; in fact he claims it wasn't suicide.  When you make statements like that you only make yourself look stupid.





> The report cautions that the evidence doesn't prove, but rather "raises the possibility," that Lenox may have intentionally placed himself in danger.
> 
> Lenox had a 0.46 blood-alcohol level at the time, police said, nearly six times the level at which a driver of a vehicle would be presumed legally impaired.
> 
> ...



He has hx of suicidal ideations, especially when he drinks, he knew where the Rescue would pull out of, he propped himself up just outside of the door, and then when he failed, he fabricated a story.


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## VentMedic (Oct 18, 2009)

BLSBoy said:


> He has hx of suicidal ideations, especially when he drinks, he knew where the Rescue would pull out of, he propped himself up just outside of the door, and then when he failed, he fabricated a story.


 
Most people in Florida also know that a fire station is a place to seek medical help and even a place to safely leave your unwanted babies. There is nothing unusual about someone who has a medical problem or even suicidal idealations to seek out help. You can not always pick your patients and if this had been a suited businessman who stumbled in front of the door while having a heart attack, you would have had a different opinion. As well, if this had been a layperson who ran over the person, those same FFs may have scolded that person severely and may even have wanted criminal charges filed. Afterall, checking around your vehicle is part of the "public safety" message the FDs present at their health fair booths.


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## triemal04 (Oct 18, 2009)

BLSBoy said:


> He has hx of suicidal ideations, especially when he drinks, he knew where the Rescue would pull out of, he propped himself up just outside of the door, and then when he failed, he fabricated a story.


A history of suicidal ideation?  Really?  Based on 2 random people saying so?  Oh boy...  Start thinking a little, m'kay?  And while your at it could you point out where it says he was the one to call 911 or show some real proof that he wanted to die?

To be clear though.  What I meant originally is that his story doesn't make a lot of sense given where he was (though he was highly intoxicated at the time and probably not thinking clearely).  It's possible that he was trying to kill himself.  It's also possible that he's a drunken idiot.  Unfortunately, unless he admits something, or someone with credible info comes forward this is something that's going to be hard to prove one way or another.


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## VentMedic (Oct 18, 2009)

Quotes from the article:



> *Two witnesses told police Lenox was on his back in front of the garage bay door but propped up on his right elbow — and one of them said he saw Lennox like that after the garage door opened. "From the position Lenox had been witnessed in," the report said, "he was not passed out unconscious."*


 
Witnesses who did nothing to help the guy or to warn the FFs?

Was one of them who made the phone call and failed to say the guy was in front of the door? Sounds like someone might be back pedaling for not giving all the information to the 911 operator.




> Two witnesses told police that *Lenox seemed suicidal before the incident. A friend of his told police he was despondent that he couldn't help get his girlfriend out of jail, had given up on getting sober and often talked of taking his own life when he drank.*


 
Seemed? Often talked but had not acted? 



> But when police went to the hospital to talk to Lenox, he denied a suicide attempt.* He said he went to the station to get help for his high blood pressure but firefighters "ran him over."*


 
Patient's statement...
Yes, in Florida people do show up at all hours at the fire stations to have their BP checked. 



> When the police asked him why he hadn't gone to a doorway instead of the garage bays, the report said, *Lenox said he chose that particular bay because he knew that's where the paramedic truck was parked. "He stated that he knew the rescue truck came out of the third door and that was why he laid down there,"* wrote Officer Mike Jockers.


 
A paramedic truck with "paramedics"? Not a ladder? Do you think he was seeking help from the paramedics? There might also have been a good chance they would have ignored him if he knocked on the front door. He may have thought they would surely see him in front of the truck. Unfortunately, he thought wrong. 



> The report noted that there was* no record that Lenox had problems with blood pressure.*


 
A lot of people don't know they have BP problems until they become seriously symptomatic or experience the adverse effects such as a CVA.

Also, it would be difficult to track down every ED and clinic visit this person had. 

One of the first things I was taught with both the FD and the ambulance service is that there are blind spots on these big trucks and one has to be very careful when pulling out, backing up and taking corners.


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