# Union Dues At Work!



## 46Young (Nov 21, 2009)

Great job by Local 2974 in beating off those ICMA mutts who seek to break up 24 hour shifts into shorter daytime shifts with overnight downstaffing, among other things. Some cities bought that type of drivel with EMS system status management, but this goes to show you how strong political representation can protect your interests.

http://www.iaff726.org/docs/ICMApg16.pdf


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## Hal9000 (Nov 21, 2009)

*All in individual pseudo-paragraphs!*

SSM sucks. 

Unions are generally awful. 

Many systems are little better than a sock full of anthrax.

The notion of a LEO being a FF is a poor one, but an EMT/P being a FF is not? 

Systems can always be improved.  

Presenting one biased viewpoint's undermining of another is not a great way to reach the most accurate conclusion.


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## 46Young (Nov 21, 2009)

Many in my family have benefitted tremendously from unions. FDNY EMS, LIRR, NYPD, carpenters and other trades, to name a few. They're comfortable in retirement, having taken their pension/medical benefits and moven elsewhere, and are now living like kings/queens. My IAFF local 2068 continues to come through for us.

EMS and fire generally respond from stations, to help people (or sometimes property for suppression). The two jobs are different, but there is some overlap. Many examples of depts proficient in dual role fire/ALS are available just as much as there are examples of failures, proving that dual role fire/EMS does work, provided it's run well.

I don't see any overlap in EMS and LE duties. Police roam around in cruisers, can be tied up for hours upon hours for arrests and court, generally don't perform medical aid of any sort, unless (maybe) it's CPR. The NYPD won't even touch a pt, due to potential liability. Unless you're working in an environment with absurdly high call volume, EMS and fire can work 24's or longer. Cops can't do more than 12 or 16 straight. Logistically, for staffing and training, fire/EMS is a better match than PD/fire, let alone PD/fire/EMS. 

The oft overlooked factor is that the public is generally distrustful of LE vs how they regard EMS or LE. If they know that the FD/EMS employee is also LE, it can change how they act and what they're willing to tell you in confidence.

"Presenting one biased viewpoint's undermining of another is not a great way to reach the most accurate conclusion", but it sure is effective. That's my point. Strength in Solidatrity.


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## Hal9000 (Nov 21, 2009)

Yes, I daresay that your support of unions is most well known.  I have a relative who has a job where he is required to be union, and the union comes through for him, too.  He makes far more money with the union than he otherwise would, and the union rabidly supports him and his brothers.

He also can't stand it, because it hosts inefficiency and sloth.  It has a disproportionate and unfortunate ability to get its way.  Some people, concerned only with living like kings, are fine with the union, while others, like him, are actively looking for jobs without it.  Sure, he receives over $182,000 per year thanks to this union, but he has principles, and those are fortunately worth much to him.

I've noticed that you repeatedly justify your actions and what you support based upon its benefit to you.  If you subscribe to Ayn Rand's ideals, your thoughts are correct.  Your own satisfaction is your highest and only rational concern.  Some people, however, recognize and do not enjoy the unions' disproportionate amounts of power.  If everyone in the world was a in a union, would the world be a better place?  Would unions work as they do now?  No!  And this can be used as a test for the ethics of the concept, as well.

It's interesting that you are so well prepared with points about law enforcement being involved with EMS or fire.  I know of an entire area which is being organized regionally as a joint effort under the local offices of the sheriffs.  Instead of having many small, inefficient volunteer ambulance services, there will be a regional ALS service supported by an excellent QRS system.  

Unions destroy and prevent enhancement of systems in order to protect their own laziness and inefficiency.  They are anathema to advancements in an open world.  If all of America were unionized, we would lose our ability to stay progressive, and our system would implode.  The fact that not everyone can be unionized without destroying our system proves...

I'd finish, but anyone with an interest in unemotional, logical thought knows what it proves.  You have repeatedly an adamantly argued for your systems based upon the great benefit brought to you by it.  While this support is rational and understandable, I cannot agree with it.  I realize it is rather improbable that my own views will change your mind, and that really isn't my point.  With such a multi-faceted concept, everything from ethics, political systems, and the current economic voodoo by which America is being run could be brought into the argument.  Your proclamation that your argument is effective (Although I believe you misread, and thought I was talking about the union's.) is incorrect.  Your argument is simply easy to accept for those solely concerned with immediate gain or self-preservation. 

And now we understand why initially rested my case with, "unions suck," and why I will retire forwith to that argument. If you would enjoy hearing my personal and philosophical views, please, by all means send me a private message.  I dislike pompously pontificating all over the forums, and my last foray as such ended with being told that, "[O]bviously I was very concerned, but it was a waste of time, because no one cares."  

Toodles.


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## Shishkabob (Nov 21, 2009)

Unions have their positive sides, but also have some crappy aspect.


I should not be forced to become a part of a union, forced to pay dues, and threatened to not have a job if I deny to be part of the union, if I damn well choose not to.



That was the one thing I hated about Kroger.  If you get hired, you're forced to be part of the union, and forced to pay dues, you have no choice in the matter.  Sure, you can get a job elsewhere, but doesn't change the fact that it's stupid.


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## Shishkabob (Nov 21, 2009)

46Young said:


> I don't see any overlap in EMS and LE duties. Police roam around in cruisers, can be tied up for hours upon hours for arrests and court, generally don't perform medical aid of any sort, unless (maybe) it's CPR. The NYPD won't even touch a pt, due to potential liability. Unless you're working in an environment with absurdly high call volume, EMS and fire can work 24's or longer. Cops can't do more than 12 or 16 straight. Logistically, for staffing and training, fire/EMS is a better match than PD/fire, let alone PD/fire/EMS.





They don't do pt care because it's not in their job requirements.  It's not in an FF's job requirement to wrestle people to the ground to help cops, so most FFs done.  Some do.  Does that make them wrong?





As for PD/fire/EMS being bad... Highland Park would disagree with you.  I've yet to hear a negative thing about that department.


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## 46Young (Nov 21, 2009)

Linuss said:


> They don't do pt care because it's not in their job requirements.  It's not in an FF's job requirement to wrestle people to the ground to help cops, so most FFs done.  Some do.  Does that make them wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Pt care wasn't originally in the FF's job description, but it's been proved that marrying the two professions can be done well (again, if run properly).

Highland Park TX is but one example. They've been doing it since '77. Hard to say if seperate PD/FD/EMS would be more effective, since it's always been PSO's. It's also an affluent area, so naturally anyone with LEO responsibilities would be better received by the public, as opposed to poorer, high crime areas. 

The 2000 census stated they only had around 9000 residents. If there were that few ten years ago, it's no wonder that they went with triple role personnel. It's cost effective, and easier to do with such a small population, I suppose. I don't prepare their budget. I've noticed that the general opinion here is that large cities are better served with single role personnel, medium to small sized jurisdictions are better served with dual role employees, and PSO's only work with an extremely small population.


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## 46Young (Nov 21, 2009)

Hal9000 said:


> Yes, I daresay that your support of unions is most well known.  I have a relative who has a job where he is required to be union, and the union comes through for him, too.  He makes far more money with the union than he otherwise would, and the union rabidly supports him and his brothers.
> 
> He also can't stand it, because it hosts inefficiency and sloth.  It has a disproportionate and unfortunate ability to get its way.  Some people, concerned only with living like kings, are fine with the union, while others, like him, are actively looking for jobs without it.  Sure, he receives over $182,000 per year thanks to this union, but he has principles, and those are fortunately worth much to him.
> 
> ...



Someone has to look out for the little guy. It's obvious that, when left to their own devices, an employer will seek to compensate at the lowest possible level. Good ole boy promotions and punishments would run rampant without protection and a level playing field for the employee. No one else is volunteering to pay my family's bills, so I'll look for the most lucrative, protected route. It's work, a job after all. We work jobs for income. Why wouldn't someone want to be compensated at the highest level possible in exchange for their time and effort? I'm not losing any sleep at night.


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## 46Young (Nov 21, 2009)

I guess that the main problem with unions are that in some (okay, many) the employees are not held accountable, and they ask the world during negotiations. It's why all those factories closed and jobs went overseas. I'll still go with one over not having one, as no one is donating funds to pay my bills at the moment.


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## Hal9000 (Nov 21, 2009)

46Young said:


> I guess that the main problem with unions are that in some (okay, many) the employees are not held accountable, and they ask the world during negotiations. It's why all those factories closed and jobs went overseas. I'll still go with one over not having one, as no one is donating funds to pay my bills at the moment.



As one of my favorite men once said, “Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.”  

Unions encourage sloth.  Inherently business attempts to grow and succeed, and value is assigned to certain roles more than others.  Being a firefighter or paramedic is currently quite easy, and, as such, many make rather poor wages.  Unions merely artificially increase the wages of these employees, while the employees themselves then have little encouragement to make themselves more valuable. While one's personal survival is rationally of the highest importance, I do not feel your position advances humanity in any significant way.  The "little guy" could look out for himself by making valuable contributions, but it one can often make more money by paying a strong-arming group of people some dues and remaining otherwise stagnant.

Please don't feel I'm attacking you.  I agree with your last post.  I do not agree with your personal philosophies, and I abhor the reality of unions.  Much like communism, the ideology espoused often runs amok with pseudo-science, or attempts to elevate itself in some emotional way as being transcendent. These perfect systems, which nominally benefit the user so much, are often quite impossible due to the inherent entanglement with human nature, which consistently has and will continue to reward those who are intelligent and competitive.  Systems which rely on force and coercion reliably end in a shambles as their members become prone to a type of dormancy which is rewarded monetarily. 

Stepping beyond your piece, the United States is in terrible shape.  We are going to face horrendous challenges, and there is the very likely possibility that the CIA World FactBook may soon not have as many 1s beside "USA" as they once did.  In any case, I know about paying the bills.  I spent a winter living in my car, as working as an EMT made me only enough money to pay for college and food, and not enough to pay for a home.  Despite this "hardship," I still very much dislike the waste seen in both government and unions.


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## Shishkabob (Nov 21, 2009)

Ah, but if pt care was enveloped in to the police officers role, I guarantee they would be able to do it better then FD (generally speaking).  Think about it:  One of the FDs claims to pt care is that with so many fire stations around, they are able to get on scene very quickly. 


Police ALWAYS have a quicker response time to scenes, sometimes less than1-2 minutes from dispatch.


If time is what we're talking about, let's do PD/EMS... several places already do.


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## Aerin-Sol (Nov 21, 2009)

Linuss said:


> That was the one thing I hated about Kroger.  If you get hired, you're forced to be part of the union, and forced to pay dues, you have no choice in the matter.  Sure, you can get a job elsewhere, but doesn't change the fact that it's stupid.



That's also true at UPS, at least for warehouse workers. Sometimes I was annoyed by it but UPS paid almost $1/more/hr than Fed Ex, and that more than covered the union dues.


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## 46Young (Nov 21, 2009)

Hal9000 said:


> As one of my favorite men once said, “Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive.”
> 
> Unions encourage sloth.  Inherently business attempts to grow and succeed, and value is assigned to certain roles more than others.  Being a firefighter or paramedic is currently quite easy, and, as such, many make rather poor wages.  Unions merely artificially increase the wages of these employees, while the employees themselves then have little encouragement to make themselves more valuable. While one's personal survival is rationally of the highest importance, I do not feel your position advances humanity in any significant way.  The "little guy" could look out for himself by making valuable contributions, but it one can often make more money by paying a strong-arming group of people some dues and remaining otherwise stagnant.
> 
> ...



I know what you're saying. Unions were originally formed to prevent abuse of workers, and a better deal. The idea the "unions encourage sloth" is due to the lack of accountability overall. The smart unions are the ones who actually negotiate, give and take, instead of trying to bully management into giving them everything they want. When you're making 100k+/yr on an assembly line with 6 weeks vacation every year and you won't give an inch, your job goes to another country for a quater of the cost.

As far as lack of accountability, a progressive discipline system needs to be established. Management should insist that this is implemented during negotiations. We have four steps of dscipline, where on the fourth you're sitting in front of the fire chief, getting the boot. We do have bad apples here that we can't seem to get rid of, but there have been more than a few firings since I've started here. 

I've seen firsthand how employees can be treated without an organization to help protect them. There's no mechanism in place to ensure equal treatment. They say jump, you say how high? Regarding working conditions, compensation, schedules, holidays, mandatory OT, subjective promotional methods among other things, management says "If you don't like it, leave". I wasn't down with that. I like a level playing field. Not a stranglehold on my place of employment, just a fair shake.

My local faced 89 layoffs earlier this year. The union came up with alternatives to layoffs by agreeing to cut certain positions previously awarded by the county. We gave up COLA's and raises for several years. The members were also willing to take pay cuts to save jobs if needed. Political connections with the county and state prevented that from becoming necessary, though. The union has come up with several (lucrative) ways for the county to earn additional income streams. This helps when we seek to protect our interests. One hand washes the other.

The truth, if there were no fire/EMS unions, I would be an RN now, earning a pension through NYS. Someone who works here told me what firemedics were getting. This was way more than what I would get anywhere else in a single medic role. It's also a secure job as well. I could have went to RN, worked for a hospital system for 15 years and then have it go bankrupt. I could have finished my undergrad studies in accounting and been laid off several times over like many in the business world. When I found out that I could make more than a fair number of 4 year college grads, with no significant time investment, with a generous hiring package (thanks to the local 2068) I was onboard in a hurry. I know that the wages and such are artifically inflated. That's what attracted us here. My wife wouldn't have agreed to move here for much less than they were offering. 

The dept ensures productivity through required, scheduled monthly drills, classroom lectures, extra multi unit drills, various S.O.P.'s to allow discipline if an employee slacks, and weighs education heavily for promotional purposes. Also, if you receive a poor employee review, you don't receive a merit increase. No raise if you're a screwup.


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## 46Young (Nov 21, 2009)

Forget living out of a car for a little while. Have you ever taken a look at the real financial needs in retirement, to include inflation, insurance premium payments, and long term care? It's scary. Have you ever taken notice how some of your elderly pts are living? Ample motivation for me to seek the best deal.


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## 46Young (Nov 21, 2009)

Linuss said:


> Ah, but if pt care was enveloped in to the police officers role, I guarantee they would be able to do it better then FD (generally speaking).  Think about it:  One of the FDs claims to pt care is that with so many fire stations around, they are able to get on scene very quickly.
> 
> 
> Police ALWAYS have a quicker response time to scenes, sometimes less than1-2 minutes from dispatch.
> ...



Of course police have quick response times - they roam around the streets in cruisers. There's no reflex time getting out of a station, the cruiser isn't going to be out of it's precinct like an ambulance or suppressio piece might be, you only need one person to drive a criuiser, so you can have more units on the road, to increase response times. The cruiser is also more maneuverable and much quicker than an ambulance or fire engine, also resulting in a shorter response time. When I sat on a street corner in NYC, roaming the neighborhood, I had great response times, too. We were enroute in mere seconds, just like a roaming cruiser.

One place I know of that does PD/EMS, Nassau County Pd (NY) uses a single medic on a bus, then uses an officer/EMT to intercept in a cruiser to assist/drive the bus to the hospital. The officer is out of service for LE duties for close to two hours, considering they respond to the medical aid, treat onscene, go to the hospital, wait for the report to be finished, then drive back to the cruiser. Inefficient.

When you say several places already do PD/EMS, you must mean literally a few. I've only heard of a few examples, typically in an area with a small population. If the concept was superior to the fire/EMS model, then why isn't it standard practice across the country. We've had several market declines (significant market declines always precede recessions)since that place in Texas started their program. If it were truly cost effective for most of the coutry, you'd see it everywhere. We don't. 

LE has unions just like the IAFF. I don't see them lobbying politicians for the right to absorb EMS. If I'm wrong and they have been, I suppose that the FD's have presented a more financially appealing alternative. Police are an insurance policy just like the FD. It's just that the police are requested more often. The public would be in an uproar if police positions were cut significantly. People like to say that FD's don't run much suppression, but that doesn't make those units any less valuable to life and properly when summoned. A citizen may only need the FD once in their life. It sucks for them when the first due is extended due to downstaffing and brownouts, resulting in death or major loss of property. The FD's are doing a great job of merging with EMS (in some places, not so much in others) with a benefit of upstaffing on both sides, a great selling point to the local gov't. 

The run volume is fairly constant for LEO's in both suburban and urban areas. Too much to risk being taken out of service for EMS, which also has a high call volume. FD's use mutual aid to hedge the risk of having a unit OOS for a first due. If the ambulance is onscene, and it's not life or death, and a major incident comes across, the suppression unit can always go inservice and take it.


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## Hal9000 (Nov 22, 2009)

*FTR: Some correct points.*



46Young said:


> Forget living out of a car for a little while. Have you ever taken a look at the real financial needs in retirement, to include inflation, insurance premium payments, and long term care? It's scary. Have you ever taken notice how some of your elderly pts are living? Ample motivation for me to seek the best deal.



Are you trying to scare me?  While living out of a car for a while, going to college fulltime, working a FT job, in Montana, in the winter, might seem like roses to you, I can assure you it is a little bit annoying. 

Until the best deal is just one of many that relegates America to economic failure...  Having four years of college, I can assure you I do understand quite well.  Instead of pursuing a non-degree job, I'm pursuing anesthesia.  Instead of relying on the government to support me, I support myself.  I also have built a good social net.  If I go down hard, I have excellent friends that will support me. 

I have worked for one of the worst businesses on the face of the planet. It was absolutely infuriating to do so.  I did it, however, for two years.  I stuck with the job, as they paid me, and because I wanted to always remember that I could have a job like that instead of whatever job I'd have in the future.  I was also completely aware that I could leave this job which abused the "little people" at any time I wanted.  When I finally did leave, it was quite surprising, as my manager and some others left the day after.  Most people just didn't ever have the spine to do what was right.

In any case, your argument is based solely off personal well-being.  I can't argue with that, as it makes sense.  It won't work in the long run, and, if one believe in a universe which isn't finite, it certainly isn't ethical.  One of the large reasons I am leaving EMS is to avoid being forced in to a union job.


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## Michael Sykes (Nov 22, 2009)

I was, once, in the UAW for three years. Worst experience in my life. When I was hired, I was told I had the choice of whether or not to join the union; however, if I chose not to, they would still take my dues, represent me, and I would still enjoy all of the "benefits" of the union. 

The only benefit I saw was being fought at every turn,  a representative who protected only himself and his buddy, both of whom should have been fired, and a bargaining committee that was totally ineffective. When we went out on strike once, I got my fill and found another job, non-union, and got more money to start than the union settled for after a one-week strike.

I'm sorry but, yes, I am very non-union.


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## Michael Sykes (Nov 22, 2009)

In our small community, the PD nearly always responds with the volunteer FD. Some police officers are First Responders, and all are trained in at least CPR. Due to our response time (Nobody goes directly to the scene in POV's), the PD usually arrives ahead of us and, if trained, can initiate pt care. As long as they know what they're doing, I have no problem in their laying on of hands. There are times, during CPR, a fresh body is welcome.


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## ah2388 (Nov 29, 2009)

id be interested in hearing opinions from those who are employed in much larger systems..

this is an interesting discussion


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