# EMT'Bs and minimum wage



## AVPU (Jul 1, 2010)

So I'm finally hired on with an agency and now just waiting for paperwork from the state. Making a whole $8.55 an hour with not much room to rise. It's what I expected...I'm not here for the money...but sh*t. Isn't it comforting to know that in a life-threatening emergency, the person saving your *** is making minimum wage?!

Why do EMT-Bs make so little? From what I gather it's the same everywhere. Are there really so many of us?


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## TransportJockey (Jul 1, 2010)

There's a surplus of EMT-Bs everywhere, and they just aren't worth paying more due to that and that they're not educated enough to be worth more


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## socal399 (Jul 1, 2010)

thats crazy man. just as much as the guy at mcdonalds, you would think emts would make more.  congrats on getting the job


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## socal399 (Jul 1, 2010)

jtpaintball70 said:


> There's a surplus of EMT-Bs everywhere, and they just aren't worth paying more due to that and that they're not educated enough to be worth more



makes sense


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## MDA (Jul 1, 2010)

Always a topic/issue. I've come to grips with it. Would I be active in a change if a possibility came up? Of course. BUT, I'm not going to hold my breath or be bitter/upset about it.

I've worked many jobs, I was a probation officer making a lot of money, I was a dairyman running a LARGE dairy in texas (my house was paid for, for me, all utilities, and I was salaried), but I got tired of it all, and that alone made me hate life, the money didn't change anything.

I came back to EMS because I loved it. It's the one thing I regretted leaving, when my wife and I had the career change discussion, we both agreed all or nothing. Even though we have a young son, she looked at it in a positive light and decided to get a part-time job to get out of the house. We're making due, but the difference is we're both happy, loving life and it has really helped us out as a family because we dissolved a lot of issues I brought home being unhappy.

I know it's kind of off-topic to your questions, but that's my experience and where I am. I mean say I work 72 hours a week, either 3 24's, or 2 24's and a 12 here and there it works out. The overtime bumps the checks up pretty good. I mean it's still mediocre but it makes it more tolerable.

I don't know the real "issue" that's holding up change, but from my understanding this is how it will be, how it was, and how it will be in the future.


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## AVPU (Jul 1, 2010)

Well said, I follow all the responses. I'm just amazed given the critical nature of the work. I know EMT-Bs don't have a lot of power, hardly any at all, but c'mon. Meanwhile the paper pusher in the cubicle working for Verizon or some corporation makes ten times that. I'm like MDA, I had another career before coming to EMS. Always been interested in it.


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## JPINFV (Jul 1, 2010)

AVPU said:


> Why do EMT-Bs make so little? From what I gather it's the same everywhere. Are there really so many of us?



Supply and demand with an insanely low barrier to entry.


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## MDA (Jul 1, 2010)

jtpaintball70 said:


> There's a surplus of EMT-Bs everywhere, and they just aren't worth paying more due to that and that they're not educated enough to be worth more



Pretty much exactly spot on, but it raises the question, if we're not educated to be worth more, should we have the responsibilities we do? A lot of factors play into it, such as job stress, working conditions and so on. It's unfortunate.

Sort of funny story, a friend of mine was talking to someone today we haven't seen in a while that we use to be friends with and during their conversation I heard him mention "oh, he's an ambulance driver." I just shrugged it off, but maybe people don't really know what we do. 

A lot of it (that I've seen) has been company issues too. Lets be honest, right now in this economy, if you're demanding $12 an hour, and there's 50+ qualified applicants, you can bet just about anything someone will take the job for less. It's another unfortunate truth but a lot of people use this career as a stepping stone or experience, so the true career oriented people are overlooked in a sense.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely can't wait to become a Medic, but more money would be awesome. Haha.


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## ah2388 (Jul 1, 2010)

MDA said:


> Pretty much exactly spot on, but it raises the question, if we're not educated to be worth more, should we have the responsibilities we do? A lot of factors play into it, such as job stress, working conditions and so on. It's unfortunate.
> 
> Sort of funny story, a friend of mine was talking to someone today we haven't seen in a while that we use to be friends with and during their conversation I heard him mention "oh, he's an ambulance driver." I just shrugged it off, but maybe people don't really know what we do.
> 
> ...



Most places, even running 911 calls...EMT's arent a whole lot more than "ambulance drivers", that isnt to say that they arent vital to a medic/EMT team, because EMT's perform the "grunt" work that comes with prehospital patient care.  However, get used to being the "low" man on the totem pole because thats what we are in terms of education.  As far as responsibility, the truth is EMT's are responsible for far less than providers in other areas of healthcare.  Its not until the paramedic level that liability and responsibility increases to begin being compared to other similar healthcare career fields.

And despite the language in this post, I dont want to make it seem like EMT's arent more than "ambulance" drivers.  Having done clinicals for services that run single medic, I cant say how important the EMT member of the team is.


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## MDA (Jul 1, 2010)

ah2388 said:


> Most places, even running 911 calls...EMT's arent a whole lot more than "ambulance drivers", that isnt to say that they arent vital to a medic/EMT team, because EMT's perform the "grunt" work that comes with prehospital patient care.  However, get used to being the "low" man on the totem pole because thats what we are in terms of education.  As far as responsibility, the truth is EMT's are responsible for far less than providers in other areas of healthcare.  Its not until the paramedic level that liability and responsibility increases to begin being compared to other similar healthcare career fields.
> 
> And despite the language in this post, I dont want to make it seem like EMT's arent more than "ambulance" drivers.  Having done clinicals for services that run single medic, I cant say how important the EMT member of the team is.



I know what you're saying. 

I am an ambulance driver, but that's only one part and aspect of the job I do.
I just don't think the general population knows that.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jul 1, 2010)

a "flagger" (the guy who holds the stop/slow down sign) receives less technical/vocational training than an EMT-B and makes twice as much money.

The same can be said for almost any job that requires any type of formal certification and over 100 hours of vocational training and hundreds of dollars in training and cert cost.


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## Shishkabob (Jul 1, 2010)

A 911 EMT with the same employer, just in the city next door, makes $1.50 more than I, an IFT medic, makes... and all they do IS drive, compared to me doing much the same work the 911 medic does.


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## MDA (Jul 1, 2010)

schulz said:


> a "flagger" (the guy who holds the stop/slow down sign) receives less technical/vocational training than an EMT-B and makes twice as much money.
> 
> The same can be said for almost any job that requires any type of formal certification and over 100 hours of vocational training and hundreds of dollars in training and cert cost.



Speaking of which, I recently saw an advertisement for a SCHOOL that teaches you how to hold a slow/stop sign. I almost lost it.

Does someone really need to know how to let traffic through construction areas?


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## JPINFV (Jul 1, 2010)

schulz said:


> a "flagger" (the guy who holds the stop/slow down sign) receives less technical/vocational training than an EMT-B and makes twice as much money.
> 
> The same can be said for almost any job that requires any type of formal certification and over 100 hours of vocational training and hundreds of dollars in training and cert cost.



How many people are applying for flagger positions versus EMT-B positions?


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jul 1, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> How many people are applying for flagger positions versus EMT-B positions?



Probably a lot more emtlife members now that the cat is out of the bag.


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## Sassafras (Jul 1, 2010)

chin up.  We make more than McDonald's workers.  Trust me.  I just quit there. LOL


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## CAOX3 (Jul 1, 2010)

EMTs here start at fifteen and top out at twenty-five, medics start at twenty and top out at thirty.  

Once at top step you then recieve COLA raises which is dependent on negotiations.

I have yet to meet the EMS provider who doesnt make the majority of their salary working overtime.

It is what it is, but no one around here is making eight bucks an hour in EMS.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jul 1, 2010)

CAOX3 said:


> EMTs here start at fifteen and top out at twenty-five, medics start at twenty and top out at thirty.


Where is this? Are these private or municipal employees? I can not see a private ambulance company paying an EMT-B $25.00 an hour unless your cost of living is more than new york city or something


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## medic417 (Jul 1, 2010)

Low education.  Saturation of emt's.  Emt's doing it for free. = Low wages.


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## CAOX3 (Jul 1, 2010)

schulz said:


> Where is this? Are these private or municipal employees? I can not see a private ambulance company paying an EMT-B $25.00 an hour unless your cost of living is more than new york city or something



Sorry I dont offer any personal information about myself or my employer.

I notice you dont have a problem with them paying medics thirty an hour with no traditional education requirements.


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## usafmedic45 (Jul 1, 2010)

schulz said:


> Where is this? Are these private or municipal employees? I can not see a private ambulance company paying an EMT-B $25.00 an hour unless your cost of living is more than new york city or something


I'm guessing that it's probably LA or somewhere else with an exorbitant CoL index.


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## CAOX3 (Jul 2, 2010)

52,000 a year base at top step is a lot of money?

Not when the guy delivering packages in the brown truck is making close to seventy.


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## usafmedic45 (Jul 2, 2010)

> 52,000 a year base at top step is a lot of money?



It depends on the cost of living.  If you live out where my parents live at and you can get a two bedroom house for $70,000, it's a damn good wage.  If you're in Chicago and an apartment will run you over $1000 a month it's suddenly not so great.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jul 2, 2010)

CAOX3 said:


> 52,000 a year base at top step is a lot of money?
> 
> Not when the guy delivering packages in the brown truck is making close to seventy.



I worked for UPS while I was going to school and the driver I worked with made $25.00 an hour but he had been with the company for almost 15 years.... I am guessing drivers cap on that, at least in Portland.

If there are any EMT-B's who work for a private ambulance(not fire department or municipal employees) and make $25.00 an hour I would love to hear form them right now, or someone to point to a website or something.

If that is true, its certainly not the median wage but I would still love to see who pays that.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jul 2, 2010)

http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/community/ems_salary_benefits_042607.shtml

New york is one of the highest (if not the highest) cost of living in the united states.

FDNY EMS is a municipal agency, a fire department and after 5 years there EMT's are not even making 25 an hour. So if AMR or Rural Metro or another private company is paying more than that wage somewhere else, it would be a big step I guess.


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## CAOX3 (Jul 2, 2010)

schulz said:


> http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/community/ems_salary_benefits_042607.shtml
> 
> New york is one of the highest (if not the highest) cost of living in the united states.
> 
> FDNY EMS is a municipal agency, a fire department and after 5 years there EMT's are not even making 25 an hour. So if AMR or Rural Metro or another private company is paying more than that wage somewhere else, it would be a big step I guess.



After five years, Im sure after twenty years their making close to if not exceding that and the NYC hospital based systems are paying significantly more.

The funny thing is after five years FDNY firefighter with fringe benefits is making one hundred thousand dollars a year and a the paramedic is making half that and the EMT is making sixty thousand a year less.


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## TraprMike (Jul 2, 2010)

socal399 said:


> makes sense



what do you expect for a 3 month class???


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## Sunny Fox (Jul 2, 2010)

*Hmm..*

Are there any other Vollys out there? In my county its a 5 month course, the most intensive in my state. While I know my place when it comes to the other levels of EMS, I don't think there is anything to be ashamed of being a B. EMT-B does not always equal "just a driver".
Since I am a volunteer I don't have to worry about wages earned. Good thing because they couldnt afford to pay my OT 
We do have private ambulance services, taxi from one hospital to another, and they make more than minimum wage if you are a B and a Driver.
If you have major hospitals around you, get into a Phlebotomy Training class and then you are more marketable as a Tech at a hospital.


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## Sandog (Jul 2, 2010)

> If you have major hospitals around you, get into a Phlebotomy Training class and then you are more marketable as a Tech at a hospital.



I would rather stick a pencil in my eye and swirl it around.


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## looker (Jul 2, 2010)

Everything that could be said already been said. When anyone with in a short period become emt a low wage should be expected. Yes it's very sad that you life might dependent on the skill of the minimum wage worker. A lot of people have eye's opening when they find out how much emt's make an hour.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jul 2, 2010)

CAOX3 said:


> The funny thing is after five years FDNY firefighter with fringe benefits is making one hundred thousand dollars a year and a the paramedic is making half that and the EMT is making sixty thousand a year less.


I am not sure where your getting your information. But according to the FDNY website which publicly post salary information a Paramedic(non fire fighter) tops out in 5 years at $59.079 and a firefighter at $76,488 for base salary. An EMT-B is After 5 Years $45,834. It does not provide any additional information regarding how much fringe benefits the Paramedic or EMT gets, only that the salary quote is a base salary and does not include fringe benefits in that amount.
Also, why will you not tell us where an EMT-B can make $25 an hour at a private company? I might believe an NYC hospital based system could pay an EMT-B that giving the cost of living in NYC.... but I am still interested to hear where this is offered.


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## DrParasite (Jul 2, 2010)

CAOX3 said:


> It is what it is, but no one around here is making eight bucks an hour in EMS.


a friend of mine works for a private company doing 911s, gets no benefits (she refuses to pay for horrible benefits), no PTO, no sick time, no guarantee of 40 hours.  and I think she makes $9 an hour.  



CAOX3 said:


> Sorry I dont offer any personal information about myself or my employer.


I hate to be nosey, but I really do want to know where you work.  I understand your desire for secrecy, but the only concrete jungle I know of is NYC, and you have said you don't work in NYC.  I will tell you where I work if you want to do a PM.



jtpaintball70 said:


> There's a surplus of EMT-Bs everywhere, and they just aren't worth paying more due to that and that they're not educated enough to be worth more


  surplus, yes.  not worth paying more?  ehhhhh...

my PT job starts EMTs around 15/hr (for inter-facility transport and 911).  my FT job starts around 18 or so an hour, all urban 911 calls.  at my FT job, EMTs can do between 12 and 20 jobs in a 12 hour shift.  to say that our crews work for their money is an understatement. 

per diem medics start at 31/hr, FT medics are $25 I think.

One thing to keep in mind about low wages: EMS is often considered healthcare, not public safety.  in public safety (FD/PD) you are often tax based, and being a monetary black hole is accepted.  In addition, downtime is permitted (back to the whole monetary black whole concept).

EMS very often needs to make money.  managers, esp private ones, don't want units sitting around costing them money if they aren't going to calls (transporting pt's the hospital).  so they don't staff any more units than they actually need.  so if you have a lot of downtime, you will often make less $$$.  if you work your *** off for 12 hrs, you will often make more $$$ (but that has it's drawbacks too).  that is what happens when EMS is considered part of the healthcare system and not a true equal to fire and police in the public safety arena.

PS. FDNY EMS new hires quality for food stamps when they start.  many senior people leave FDNY for better positions with the voluntary hospital based FDNY EMS system.  you won't make six figures either has a medic working for FDNY EMS, despite what many think about working for a city.

Not only that, but while FDNY is probably the busiest system in the nation (overall call volume) their calls per unit is no where near as busy as you would think (no, they aren't running back to back to back jobs for 8 hrs straight).


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## CAOX3 (Jul 2, 2010)

schulz said:


> I am not sure where your getting your information. But according to the FDNY website which publicly post salary information a Paramedic(non fire fighter) tops out in 5 years at $59.079 and a firefighter at $76,488 for base salary. An EMT-B is After 5 Years $45,834. It does not provide any additional information regarding how much fringe benefits the Paramedic or EMT gets, only that the salary quote is a base salary and does not include fringe benefits in that amount.
> Also, why will you not tell us where an EMT-B can make $25 an hour at a private company? I might believe an NYC hospital based system could pay an EMT-B that giving the cost of living in NYC.... but I am still interested to hear where this is offered.



I was commenting on the disparity between fire and EMS, I think its disgusting.

The fringe benefits I was speaking of were on the fire side.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/community/ff_salary_benefits_080106.shtml

I doubt EMT/medics top out after five years in FDNY EMS, I am sure there are COLA raises and I believe they have shift differential also.

Whether I work private or municiple isnt really important and Im sorry but I dont reveal my employer or location but we dont top out at five years its closer to twenty.  I dont think twenty five dollars is an exorbitant amount of money for someone who has given twenty years of service to an employer.

And why was it ok for the UPS driver to make twenty five an hour with no training/education, no con ed, and no annual training requirements and no one questions it?


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## CAOX3 (Jul 2, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> I hate to be nosey, but I really do want to know where you work.  I understand your desire for secrecy, but the only concrete jungle I know of is NYC, and you have said you don't work in NYC.  I will tell you where I work if you want to do a PM..



Im sorry but I dont reveal that information.  Nothing personal but I am quite opininated at times best to keep cloak of secercy. 

And NYC is a cake walk compared with some of the other cities in this country as far as crime per capita and not even close to the worst "concrete jungle".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate


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## usafmedic45 (Jul 2, 2010)

Sandog said:


> I would rather stick a pencil in my eye and swirl it around.


It's funny, because that's exactly how I feel about being an RT most nights.  If it weren't for the nice paycheck....


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## DrParasite (Jul 2, 2010)

actually, I think if EMTs in busy systems top out at 50,000, that's pretty fair.  just working normal hours.  add another 10,000 or 20,000 for OT, and it's a decent salary for the work and education.

Medic salaries, on the other hand, are absurd.  busy medics should make 100,000 a year.  easily.  

but also remember, if you work in NYC in an 8 hour shift, and are only seeing 3 patients, how hard is the job?  some medics will see 10 pts in 12 hours.  others if they see 8 in a 24 it's a busy night.  So if you aren't working your *** off, you should be paid less.  slower systems = less money.


CAOX3 said:


> Im sorry but I dont reveal that information.  Nothing personal but I am quite opininated at times best to keep cloak of secercy.
> 
> And NYC is a cake walk compared with some of the other cities in this country as far as crime per capita and not even close to the worst "concrete jungle".
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate


I never said it was the worst.  the top three are typically Camden, Detroit, and St. Louis, and they rotate as worse in the US.  Sometimes you get another wildcard (Flint, Gary, Newark, etc), but those are usually 3 of the top 5.  But the only one I have heard of been referred to as concrete jungle is NYC  (along with Gotham, and a couple other names that can't be repeated). and a google search didn't turn up anything else


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## CAOX3 (Jul 2, 2010)

And Parasite I hope you work in one of the Townships as opposed to Trenton or Camden.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jul 2, 2010)

I am not saying its fair the UPS drivers make that and the EMT does not. I think its absurd how most of the country's EMT's are paid so low. My first EMT-B Job paid $8.00 in 2003 doing Emergency calls no IFT. 

$8.00 to have a squeeky clean background check, driving record, and a public trust to blow red lights, speed, enter peoples homes when they are the most vulnerable, perform the best treatment plan and interventions you can with the ridiculous low amount of training and education they have provided you. 

The UPS guy, the Flagger, and even many janitors are making twice as much as many EMT's with EVEN LESS training, certification and far less responsibility and public trust.


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## JPINFV (Jul 2, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> that is what happens when EMS is considered part of the healthcare system and not a true equal to fire and police in the public safety arena.


...because the police just spend all day sitting in the doughnut shop between armed robberies, rapes, and murders? Additionally, even  if it was more public safety than healthcare (but then EMS providers can't whine about how they're viewed by the health care community. No more comparing paramedic wages to nurses), any community that actually values the fact that they're spending their citizen's hard earned tax dollars would be hard pressed to increase staffing very far past the minimum needed to ensure proper coverage.


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## CAOX3 (Jul 2, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> ...because the police just spend all day sitting in the doughnut shop between armed robberies, rapes, and murders? Additionally, even  if it was more public safety than healthcare (but then EMS providers can't whine about how they're viewed by the health care community. No more comparing paramedic wages to nurses), any community that actually values the fact that they're spending their citizen's hard earned tax dollars would be hard pressed to increase staffing very far past the minimum needed to ensure proper coverage.



I agree we serve the public we should be under the umbrella of public safety.

True, EMS providers are more concerned about acceptance and perception by others, who cares.  Its a job, if you as a nurse or a doctor and you dont accept or respect me thats fine Im not losing any sleep over it.  

I dont really care what your title is I respect the MD as much as I respect the janitor.  I respect people in general your personal title has little to do with it.

And there should be no comparison in wages between nurses and EMTs/paramedics, its traning versus education for the most part.  No comparison.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jul 2, 2010)

CAOX3 said:


> And there should be no comparison in wages between nurses and EMTs/paramedics, its traning versus education for the most part.  No comparison.


Easy for you to say.... Maybe you should google Portland Community College and look at the RN vs Paramedic AAS. The paramedic program actually has more hours, and both degrees are the minimum mandatory to practice in the state with the exact same gen ed and science classes. The only difference is Paramedics filing reciprocity can get a probational cert with there medical directors approval to either finish a bachelors degree in any field or an AAS in paramedicene. The nurses can do something similar at some of the teaching hospitals from my understanding like OHSU... and our pay is tens of thosands of dollars less than a jr college RN


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## MrBrown (Jul 2, 2010)

In New Zealand a Technician level Ambulance Officer makes about $40,000NZD, a Paramedic level Officer around $52,000 and for Intensive Care between $60-$65,000.

Those salaries are for a guarenteed 42 hours per week with no overtime and two paid breaks.  Downtime is spent in the station watching telly not sitting at some crappy gas station coz Jack Stout sold your company system status management.

Australia has much better pay where Paramedic level Officers start out at about $60,000 AUD and with overtime $100,000 is not unheard of.  Intensive Care Paramedics in Australia earn significantly more.

Bear in mind that each of these levels in both nations with the exception of our Technicians requires a Bachelors Degree or Graduate qualification and extensive experience.

While our industrial representation is not as good as Australia here in NZ we have one collective barganing body (FAOUNZ) which also helps.

I really feel bad for the US Ambo who gets $10 an hour or something stupid like that.  

A friend of mine told me he was getting $12 as what we would call an Intensive Care Paramedic, he saw an ad for a restaurant dishwasher who didn't even have to speak English and the pay was $12.50


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## CAOX3 (Jul 2, 2010)

schulz said:


> Easy for you to say.... Maybe you should google Portland Community College and look at the RN vs Paramedic AAS. The paramedic program actually has more hours, and both degrees are the minimum mandatory to practice in the state with the exact same gen ed and science classes. The only difference is Paramedics filing reciprocity can get a probational cert with there medical directors approval to either finish a bachelors degree in any field or an AAS in paramedicene. The nurses can do something similar at some of the teaching hospitals from my understanding like OHSU... and our pay is tens of thosands of dollars less than a jr college RN



Thats why I stated for the most part, I was aware there were a few areas that require degreed EMS provider in the US.  I believe if you carry a degree requirement you should be compensated as such and your practices/protocols should reflect your educational background.

Maybe if we offered salary increase with degreed paramedics and a more liberal protocol policy we would see more providers opt for that route.  The problem I see is why in this economy would a paramedic choose the degree route when there would likely be no increase in compensation?  I believe everyone should have an education but I cant fault somone taken the certification class because of the limitations of a paramedic degree and without any additional compensation.  I would be hard pressed to go to paramedic school for four years to attain a degree that with one wrong step or injury it would be useless to me financially.  Thats why I believe you should get your degree then take a paramedic class, god for bid you sustain an injury you still have a usefull degree to fall back on.

Not saying any degree is useless but Im guessing a paramedic degree may be limited in other oppurtunities away from EMS if an injury was to occur.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jul 2, 2010)

we make less than your EMT-B's with our degree's.


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## CAOX3 (Jul 2, 2010)

schulz said:


> we make less than your EMT-B's with our degree's.



Well the average isnt twenty five its closer to eighteen, twenty-five is top out at around twenty three years of service and I think they know its difficult for anyone to do this job for that amount of time without breaking down physically.


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## Cake (Jul 2, 2010)

jtpaintball70 said:


> There's a surplus of EMT-Bs everywhere, and they just aren't worth paying more due to that and that they're not educated enough to be worth more




what about EMTs with a BA degree?  are there any benefits to having a college degree in this position?


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## TransportJockey (Jul 2, 2010)

Cake said:


> what about EMTs with a BA degree?  are there any benefits to having a college degree in this position?


As an EMT-B I'd be suprised if a company that the person would be applying for would care.


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## usafmedic45 (Jul 2, 2010)

Nope.  As a former supervisor, it's not going to make a dang bit of difference in terms of pay.  It's like saying "I have a degree in art history so when you hire me as an electrical engineer (something completely unrelated), I deserve to make more".  Now, the degree might help you in getting hired or it might hurt you depending upon how the person reviewing the application chooses to look at them but suffice to say you're not going to get any extra money simply for having a bachelors degree while working as a run of the mill EMT-B.


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## firemed17 (Jul 2, 2010)

EMT's here working for the county start at 13.38 without any experience and top out at 19.67. Medics start at 14.08, and top out at 20.70 an hour. Being a firefighter aswell, adds about 2-3 on top of that. I looked up an EMS Captain and they top out at 47.95 an hour h34r:


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## 8jimi8 (Jul 2, 2010)

schulz said:


> Easy for you to say.... Maybe you should google Portland Community College and look at the RN vs Paramedic AAS. The paramedic program actually has more hours, and both degrees are the minimum mandatory to practice in the state with the exact same gen ed and science classes. The only difference is Paramedics filing reciprocity can get a probational cert with there medical directors approval to either finish a bachelors degree in any field or an AAS in paramedicene. The nurses can do something similar at some of the teaching hospitals from my understanding like OHSU... and our pay is tens of thosands of dollars less than a jr college RN


Shulz I always see you comparing RN and Paramedic as if they are equivalent.  

RNs are concerned with much more than acls and woo woos.  Paramedics go and get them and stabilize/resuscitate and then drop them off. 

When we get them, we keep them alive long term, without a break.  Now multiply that by 8 patient's at once. Now multiply that by educating and overall  organizing and managing all aspects of healthcare in their life/ health situation so that they can improve long term and stay out of the situations you rescue them from.  

We get one 30 minute break, IF we get a break (sure its mandated, heck they automatically take it out of my check... regardless of my taking the break or not)  When have you gone on a 12 hour emergency run? a 16 hour emergency run? Ever done an MCI solo? Because believe me,  It's not the same.  

Maybe you have to take the same microbiology class, but you are involved in fixing a life threat and delivering the patient to definitive care.  Then you can wash your hands and go back to sleep.  I'm not saying one is better than the other because, as everyone probably knows - i'd rather be a paramedic than a nurse, but i knew i had more opportunities with an RN, than an EMT behind my name.  

For everyone who is complaining that you don't make enough as a basic... GO BACK TO SCHOOL.  120 hours is NOTHING. The training is SO EASY, i took it on the side, while I was in nursing school.  

25 bucks an hour for abc's and some triangle bandages?! I make less than 25$ an hour as my base.  I have to give up the daytime AND weekend life to make more than that.  I don't get paid to sleep.  I don't get paid to work out.  I don't get paid to barbecue.  I don't get paid to play video games, OR study.  Are you so busy that you do nothing but work for 12 hours straight---- then yeah, you deserve more money, but a Paramedic does not coordinate the Healthcare TEAM.  

I'm responsible for maintaining the integrity of a total life of a person.  When you go to work are you Daddy for 8 people all at once?  Ok, maybe you get a critical patient.... that's some total care action, but still... are you taking care of 2-3 critical patients for even more than an hour?  

How long are you taking care of those patients?  Then you drop them off and go get to write a report for an hour before you even return to service...I know you bust your ***, but believe me, step into my world and you will know the meaning of grinding out some hours on your feet. 

 Again - please don't read some type of soapbox, holier than thou mentality.  No i've never been paid for EMS, but i have pulled 72 hour weeks on the box.  NOWHERE near as stressful as what I do now. AND i work HALF that many hours.  

The shift I just finished this morning was 17 hours. with no break.  (illegal btw.  Texas BON forbids a nurse from doing patient care for more than 16 in a row)


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## usafmedic45 (Jul 2, 2010)

> I make less than 25$ an hour as my base



You need to move then or at least switch hospitals.


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## 46Young (Jul 2, 2010)

schulz said:


> I am not sure where your getting your information. But according to the FDNY website which publicly post salary information a Paramedic(non fire fighter) tops out in 5 years at $59.079 and a firefighter at $76,488 for base salary. An EMT-B is After 5 Years $45,834. It does not provide any additional information regarding how much fringe benefits the Paramedic or EMT gets, only that the salary quote is a base salary and does not include fringe benefits in that amount.
> Also, why will you not tell us where an EMT-B can make $25 an hour at a private company? I might believe an NYC hospital based system could pay an EMT-B that giving the cost of living in NYC.... but I am still interested to hear where this is offered.



When I left NYC in 2007, private EMT's made around 9.50-13/hr, medics 19-22. My hospital paid EMT's from 15-20/hr, medics 22-33/hr. Night diff is 10%. Union hospitals such as JHMC pay were topping out their EMT's at around 23-24/hr, medics at around 35. Remember that night diff is 10% extra, so if you do tour 2's or 3's (evenings/overnights), that's an extra 2 bucks an hour or so for EMT's. 

As far as FDNY EMS, I think they pay 9% into their pension for their entire career, whereas the FF's do not after a few years. So, the quoted EMS salaries are a misrepresentation of their actual income in that regard.


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## akflightmedic (Jul 2, 2010)

MrBrown said:


> In New Zealand a Technician level Ambulance Officer makes about $40,000NZD, a Paramedic level Officer around $52,000 and for Intensive Care between $60-$65,000.



40000 NZD = 27,547 USD
52000 NZD = 35,812 USD
60000 NZD = 41,321 USD

If you wanna compare apples to apples, then do it properly. As you can see, the NZ wages are not much higher and actually lower for some levels than the American counterparts.

http://www.alliedhealthworld.com/emt_paramedic/salary.html

EMT-Bs can expect to make between $22,000 and $34,000 yearly, while EMT-I’s salaries can be as high as $42,000.

In the earlier part of their careers, paramedics can expect salaries that range between $28,000 and $40,000 depending on the state in which they work. After several years of experience, paramedics will routinely earn between $50,000 and $70,000 working for a state agency or hospital.



MrBrown said:


> Australia has much better pay where Paramedic level Officers start out at about $60,000 AUD and with overtime $100,000 is not unheard of.  Intensive Care Paramedics in Australia earn significantly more.



60,000 AUD = 50,527 USD
100,000 AUD = 84,000 USD

Again, there is no comparison. Wages are very similar depending on the part of the country and actually lower than some parts.




MrBrown said:


> I really feel bad for the US Ambo who gets $10 an hour or something stupid like that.



$10 an hour working 40 hours a week is 20,800 per year. What is more common is a 24 on 48 off which has built in over time to the salary as well as additional opportunities for over time. The common EMT salary will be between the pay range stated above and due to the over time factored in, the hourly rates will be lower, but at the end of the day, they are still on par with NZ for a lot less education.

I am not advocating less education, just noting the flaws in your argument or your choice to not use a currency converter when debating.

PLUS, we have not even discussed living costs which always have a huge impact on the level of pay being received in an area. If we put daily living expenses side by side along with these very similar salaries, who would have the better deal?


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## Shishkabob (Jul 2, 2010)

jimi said:
			
		

> RNs are concerned with much more than acls and woo woos. Paramedics go and get them and stabilize/resuscitate and then drop them off. When we get them, we keep them alive long term, without a break. Now multiply that by 8 patient's at once. Now multiply that by educating and overall organizing and managing all aspects of healthcare in their life/ health situation so that they can improve long term and stay out of the situations you rescue them from.




Jimi, two different specialties with two different expectations in knowledge. 

A new grad medic should school a new grad nurse in the realm of cardiology with ease. 

Nurses are generalist, they have a working knowledge in the breadth of medicine. Paramedics, by design or accident, are specialist, with a deep knowledge in a narrow field, mainly in just emergency medicine. 

You yourself have stated you want to be a medic for the things they don't teach, or teach much of, in nursing school.  


Sure, education is lacking, but that doesn't mean it's not there.


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## DrParasite (Jul 2, 2010)

CAOX3 said:


> And Parasite I hope you work in one of the Townships as opposed to Trenton or Camden.


actually, I work in one of the busiest systems in NJ, in a :censored::censored::censored::censored:ty city.  coworkers and friends of mine work in Trenton for Trenton EMS, and, I have done a few shifts in the town next to Trenton, but never applied to TEMS (not a big fans of the vanbulances that they use for all 911 calls).  

And camden EMS is run by UMDNJ in Newark

also,  you can compare the skill set of an RN and an medic, but the workload for an ER nurse or ICU nurse is much higher than that of a medic.  but i am pretty sure a medic in a busy system works harder than an RN on a medsurg floor, or ortho, or psych, or peds, or same day surgery.  not all nurses work with sick and crashing patients on a regular basis.  but those ER & ICU nurses definitely earn their keep.


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## 46Young (Jul 2, 2010)

CAOX3 said:


> Thats why I stated for the most part, I was aware there were a few areas that require degreed EMS provider in the US.  I believe if you carry a degree requirement you should be compensated as such and your practices/protocols should reflect your educational background.
> 
> Maybe if we offered salary increase with degreed paramedics and a more liberal protocol policy we would see more providers opt for that route.  The problem I see is why in this economy would a paramedic choose the degree route when there would likely be no increase in compensation?  I believe everyone should have an education but I cant fault somone taken the certification class because of the limitations of a paramedic degree and without any additional compensation.  I would be hard pressed to go to paramedic school for four years to attain a degree that with one wrong step or injury it would be useless to me financially.  Thats why I believe you should get your degree then take a paramedic class, god for bid you sustain an injury you still have a usefull degree to fall back on.
> 
> Not saying any degree is useless but Im guessing a paramedic degree may be limited in other oppurtunities away from EMS if an injury was to occur.



I've been saying that for a while, and occasionally taking heat for it.

I chose a 13 month medic cert program over three years for nursing school. I could have done the two year degree at LaGuardia for EMS, but I had a family to support, I didn't have the extra year or two to screw around while we go deeper into debt. I reasoned that after passing the medic class I would be making almost as much as a nurse, only 10 grand less if that, and then do nursing with a liveable wage.

Like you say, an EMS degree is basically useless here if you get injured. The EMS career ladder is quite limited. It's common knowledge in the industry. If you go down with an injury, you can be a dispatcher. You don't need a degree for that, only a HS diploma and some OJT with EMD. My county is currently hiring at around 40k starting. As far as a degree, one member pointed out that there are mid to upper level admin positions available for those with a four year healthcare degree, and that nurses are taking those positions. The thing is, having a four year EMS degree is no guarantee to get the position. Given that those admin jobs, and also supervisor positions in EMS are so few to begin with (and are awarded by favoritism more often than not), there aren't many that are willing to make the four year investment, or even a two year investment in education for a payoff that's uncertain at best.

In fact, not too long ago, Charleston County EMS advertised for the position of Assistant Director. When I worked there, medics started at 38k/yr, and topped out at 60k after 10 years. The director position paid in the mid 60's to mid 80's. I'm making more than that now (okay, I'm fire based, but still...), and I've only been on the job a little over two years, no degree required. 

That brings up another point of mine. If education was so valuable to the industry, these hospitals, muni EMS and fire depts alike would either require degrees, or at least give weight in hiring to those with degrees. But most don't. The vast majority of EMS employers could care less if you have a degree, only if your cert is good, if you have a valid license, and are not a criminal or psych case. As such, holding a degree holds no benefit in hiring or compensation, so why should we make that leap of faith, so to speak, with a degree when it's not going to increase your bottom line? I'm not going to spend the next 15-20 years or more as a financial martyr just to help the cause. Going through life living paycheck to paycheck and retiring poor is no fun.

The only reason I'm completing my EMS degree at the present is because my dept gives educational points for promotions, requires a 2 year to test for LT, and a four year to test for Capt II and above. I only needed around 20 credits to finish, it'll be only ten after the summer. These credits will also apply to the nursing program as well. So, unless you live overseas or in Oregon, the only benefit in having an EMS degree is the overlap of some of the classes, and that some nursing programs will give preference in acceptance to those already holding a degree.


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## 8jimi8 (Jul 2, 2010)

usafmedic45 said:


> You need to move then or at least switch hospitals.



Not with my career path and my situation.  I've read many times your endorsement against flying, but that is my goal.  I'm at my areas level 1 trauma center, I've given up working in an ICU at a level 3 trauma center to get into this hospital.  I'm almost done with my year long commitment  to the current floor that I am on and received an invitation to move into the ICU here when my time commitment has been fulfilled. 


Austin has unseasonably low wages because of the SHEER NURSING OVERSATURATION... When I applied to this position the manager told me that I was 1 of 10 out of 250 applicants interviewed for my position.  We have at least 5 quality schools churning out nurses every 5-6 months, not to mention that austin is in one of the top 10 cities to move to in the US right now AND one of the few cities where the housing market is GROWING, not dying, like the rest of the country.

Yes, I should be making more money, but I also started at this hospital less than a year ago and i'm looking at, at least a 5% paygrade increase, as i'm promoting to my next clinical ladder position this month.  I'm in school, with plans for more school (austin community college to finish my paramedic certificate - ACC happens to be the only school that ATCEMS will hire inexperienced paramedics from.)  So yah, i'm feeling the dollar squeeze too, but I'm gonna do what everyone else does... work twice as hard.


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## 8jimi8 (Jul 2, 2010)

Linuss said:


> Jimi, two different specialties with two different expectations in knowledge.
> 
> A new grad medic should school a new grad nurse in the realm of cardiology with ease.
> 
> ...



not my intention to imply that Paramedics don't have education, but rather that their utilization is short term.  You don't use a paramedic for long term care.  Not being a soldier I hope no one calls me out for using the anecdote and comparing it war.  Long moments of boredom waiting for seconds of sheer terror.  Where as nursing is like long slow hours of pure torture and unceasing hell... (lol)


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## 8jimi8 (Jul 3, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> but i am pretty sure a medic in a busy system works harder than an RN on a medsurg floor, or ortho, or psych, or peds, or same day surgery.  not all nurses work with sick and crashing patients on a regular basis.  but those ER & ICU nurses definitely earn their keep.



Sorry bud, you are WRONG.  Med surg nurses BUST their asses.

  The overall acuity of the general population floors is increasing, not geometrically, but exponentionally, for sure.  I'm on a cardiac stepdown unit, the most patient's i've ever charted on was 11, in a 12 hour shift.  Med surg floors are the dumping ground for the "less critical."  You see at the level 1 trauma center i'm at, when we go on code max, that means those in the ICU/ED/OBs/IMC units who could possibly be shifted to make room for the newly admitted critical patients will get shifted down.  It hasn't been uncommon that the house supervisor will have to be called in to rescue the poor med surg nurse who receives critical patients (by taking some of their patients away, so they can have the time that it takes to monitor said critical patients effectively)

Prime example.  Code max (meaning so many patients the hospital will run out of beds and goes on Trauma Priority Diversions)  I receive a patient who was transferred minutes prior to shift change (a parting shot from the day shift IMC nurse). The nurse I received report from did not assess her patient, merely took vitals and tucked the patient in.  I get on shift, receive report and think to myself... hmm something's fishy.  I go and assess the patient.  Anisocoria.  Call the doc.  Stat Stroke alert, stat orders for CTs/MRIs among other running around for the patient.  Yet i have 5 other patients who are now on autopilot because someone's brain is dying.  Called the house sup, who comes and redistributes my patients because there are no IMC or ICU beds open, the patient isn't going to be moving and i'm having to monitor the patient on a floor inadequately equipped to do so.  As i said, exponential increase in acuity on our general medicine floors now.  And having done the job of ICU RN and Med Surg RN,  I've never been so busy as to be on a med surg floor.  The time savings from being in ICU is that only have to divide your attention between 2-3 people, rather than 8.  Not to mention people are MUCH more difficult to deal with when they are awake and not on a ventilator.  Ventilator patients don't ask you for tea and crumpets or 5 packets of sugar, or phenergan w/ their ham sammich (no you b*stard you are here for pancreatitis - i'm not feeding you, nor am i giving you phenergan and "dilardid" at the same time, i don't care if that's the "ONLY" thing that takes away your pain) oh and btw, i sh*t the bed and can you wipe mah hiney.  At least in the ICU you are allowed to drop a tube in their *** so you can manage the excrements!


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## TransportJockey (Jul 3, 2010)

I'll second what 8jimi8 is saying about med-surge nurses working their tails off. I worked on an Oncology unit at one of the major hospitals in ABQ, and we wound up getting the overflow from every other floor, including med-surge. I'll gladly take my full load of Onc patients over half a load of med-surge  They are just a pain to manage.


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## 8jimi8 (Jul 3, 2010)

jtpaintball70 said:


> I'll second what 8jimi8 is saying about med-surge nurses working their tails off. I worked on an Oncology unit at one of the major hospitals in ABQ, and we wound up getting the overflow from every other floor, including med-surge. I'll gladly take my full load of Onc patients over half a load of med-surge  They are just a pain to manage.



exactly. Med surg = dumping ground, acuity be damned.  And the clinical assistants may or may not be there because they "need" them in the higher acuity floors.

and the doc says can we do q 2 vitals on this floor... i look and say... do you see a monitor in the room?


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jul 3, 2010)

8jimi8 said:


> Shulz I always see you comparing RN and Paramedic as if they are equivalent.
> 
> RNs are concerned with much more than acls and woo woos.  Paramedics go and get them and stabilize/resuscitate and then drop them off.
> 
> ...



Ummm listen, the above poster said it came down to education vs training. Thats what I was replying to regarding my state. The Paramedic training at the jr college level is the exact same. The degrees and classes are identical other than the programs themselves. So yes, of course I compare them. If you look back and read you will see that. 
One of my best friends is an R.N. My bicycling racing partner is an R.N. we get a long great. Nursing is a very hard job and I respect the nurses very much. I am sad to see from your comments you do not feel the same about Paramedics compared to nurses even though you are trying to become a Paramedic.

I am thrilled to see you think that Paramedics are into "woo hoo's" and acls. Maybe they are where you are from. Or maybe you should talk to those of us in Oregon, or the ICP's in in New Zealand, Australia, or South Africa. I can bet you they beg to differ. Your a smart cookie and I enjoy reading your post, they are often filled with great information. However I feel bashing paramedics and using terms like "woo hoo's" on a forum called EMTLIFE is not the best place.


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## wijjiam (Jul 3, 2010)

*it might have to do whith the union*

I herd that EMT-Bs in my state start around 14$/hr but it might have to do with the agency or it might have to do with the union


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## wijjiam (Jul 3, 2010)

I heard that EMT-Bs in my state start around 14$/hr but it might have to do with the agency or it might have to do with the union

Disclaimer: I’m but a silly student and only know what I’m told by my already EMT friends at the agency that I am going through school through and until I get my NREMT-B I won’t be able to know for my self


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## 8jimi8 (Jul 3, 2010)

schulz said:


> Ummm listen, the above poster said it came down to education vs training. Thats what I was replying to regarding my state. The Paramedic training at the jr college level is the exact same. The degrees and classes are identical other than the programs themselves. So yes, of course I compare them. If you look back and read you will see that.
> One of my best friends is an R.N. My bicycling racing partner is an R.N. we get a long great. Nursing is a very hard job and I respect the nurses very much. I am sad to see from your comments you do not feel the same about Paramedics compared to nurses even though you are trying to become a Paramedic.
> 
> I am thrilled to see you think that Paramedics are into "woo hoo's" and acls. Maybe they are where you are from. Or maybe you should talk to those of us in Oregon, or the ICP's in in New Zealand, Australia, or South Africa. I can bet you they beg to differ. Your a smart cookie and I enjoy reading your post, they are often filled with great information. However I feel bashing paramedics and using terms like "woo hoo's" on a forum called EMTLIFE is not the best place.




Schulz,

reading your response, makes me feel a bit embarassed.  It also impresses upon me that i should not be posting when i've been awake for more than 24 and working for as long as I did.  

I wasn't trying to say that RNs are more educated.  My esteem of the paramedicine specialty really is high.  I went into nursing at the suggestion of a firefighter capatin (ironically enough, who I met rockclimbing in oregon- a bit north of the ashland area)... and only because of the job security and the opportunities to move around in different areas of the country / specialties. 

Airway control and Cardiology hands down, Paramedics know more.  I work on a cardiac unit right now and I STILL haven't learned more than you all learn.  

But my hardest days on the ambulance still can't even cast a shadow on the difficulties encountered in nursing.

I think the biggest difference is the time spent with the patient and the sheer volume of patient care.  I guess right now, all I can do is apologize for coming off insulting / condescending and count my blessings that nursing isn't as poorly compensated as EMS.

Maybe the lack of compensation comes from the ease of entry into the profession.


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## TraprMike (Jul 3, 2010)

wijjiam said:


> I heard that EMT-Bs in my state start around 14$/hr but it might have to do with the agency or it might have to do with the union
> 
> Disclaimer: I’m but a silly student and only know what I’m told by my already EMT friends at the agency that I am going through school through and until I get my NREMT-B I won’t be able to know for my self



So with this new found information, EMT's and Para's don't get paid squat, and never will, any well educated person will find a job that pays what they want to earn, and attempt to land THAT job.  
if not, staying at any job that you know you will be paid starvation wages, carry around a brick, and have sleepless nights, will be alright with you.. because YOU chose to be employed as an emt, because you know and agreed to the wages when You agreed to work for the company..

so stop belly aching about the pay, you dont' like it, go do something else, sounds like a bunch of Union whiners around here... dont' like something ,,, LEAVE,,, duh !!!


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## Shishkabob (Jul 3, 2010)

8jimi8 said:


> I think the biggest difference is the time spent with the patient and the sheer volume of patient care.



Eh, do a shift with MedStar in Ft Worth where they do 14-18 calls in 12 hours ^_^


Plus, just to be fair, running a crashing patient in the field is A LOT more challenging than in the hospital, where you not only have a controlled environment, but medical providers above you, specialist on call, and all the equipment you need.  h34r:


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## rescue99 (Jul 3, 2010)

8jimi8 said:


> Schulz,
> 
> reading your response, makes me feel a bit embarassed.  It also impresses upon me that i should not be posting when i've been awake for more than 24 and working for as long as I did.
> 
> ...



Day nurses may (may is a suggestion, not a fact) do more hands on care than tech's do but, I've worked 2nd shift on the acute floors and no way on this earth do those lazy so-n-so's even come close the amount of patient care a tech does. NOOOOOOO WAYYYYYYY. Nurses sit on their butts writing notes on thier 4 patiients after getting 90% of thier info from tech's, who each have 12-16  patients......this is obscenus care. Unfortunatly, it is the norm in adult medicine.


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## dudemanguy (Jul 3, 2010)

AVPU said:


> So I'm finally hired on with an agency and now just waiting for paperwork from the state. Making a whole $8.55 an hour with not much room to rise. It's what I expected...I'm not here for the money...but sh*t. Isn't it comforting to know that in a life-threatening emergency, the person saving your *** is making minimum wage?!
> 
> Why do EMT-Bs make so little? From what I gather it's the same everywhere. Are there really so many of us?



The thing is, rarely will an EMT-basic be saving anyones ***. The number of times that occurs seems pretty rare to me, especially if your talking about doing IFTs.

EMT-Basic is a job that requires relatively little training, is not labor intensive, is a job many considering exciting and will do for free, and has a massive surplus of job seekers looking for a limited number of paid positions. 

There isnt really any point in complaining about the low pay. If someone wants decent pay, become a nurse, x ray tech or some other health care profession that requires a decent education. Or at least get paramedic certified.


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## rescue99 (Jul 3, 2010)

dudemanguy said:


> The thing is, rarely will an EMT-basic be saving anyones ***. The number of times that occurs seems pretty rare to me, especially if your talking about doing IFTs.
> 
> EMT-Basic is a job that requires relatively little training, is not labor intensive, is a job many considering exciting and will do for free, and has a massive surplus of job seekers looking for a limited number of paid positions. =QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## wijjiam (Jul 3, 2010)

TraprMike said:


> So with this new found information, EMT's and Para's don't get paid squat, and never will, any well educated person will find a job that pays what they want to earn, and attempt to land THAT job.
> if not, staying at any job that you know you will be paid starvation wages, carry around a brick, and have sleepless nights, will be alright with you.. because YOU chose to be employed as an emt, because you know and agreed to the wages when You agreed to work for the company..
> 
> so stop belly aching about the pay, you dont' like it, go do something else, sounds like a bunch of Union whiners around here... dont' like something ,,, LEAVE,,, duh !!!



yo I wasn’t tiring to piss and moun .  As far as I know that’s starting (exgirlfrends mom told me)  14$/hr is really good in the Seattle area. I don’t care if I’m in a union or not there’s no problem I was just trying to be a part of the conversation my dream is to be an EMT I don’t if I’m not paid or making the same as the poor kid serving my bigmac with a large order of french-fries and a coke.


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## looker (Jul 3, 2010)

rescue99 said:


> dudemanguy said:
> 
> 
> > The thing is, rarely will an EMT-basic be saving anyones ***. The number of times that occurs seems pretty rare to me, especially if your talking about doing IFTs.
> ...


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## 8jimi8 (Jul 3, 2010)

rescue99 said:


> Day nurses may (may is a suggestion, not a fact) do more hands on care than tech's do but, I've worked 2nd shift on the acute floors and no way on this earth do those lazy so-n-so's even come close the amount of patient care a tech does. NOOOOOOO WAYYYYYYY. Nurses sit on their butts writing notes on thier 4 patiients after getting 90% of thier info from tech's, who each have 12-16  patients......this is obscenus care. Unfortunatly, it is the norm in adult medicine.



This is nothing but ignorance.  I work nights and more often without a tech. And those "notes" that we take are not what the techs tell us.  Techs are not educated enough to provide evaluations of treatments or conditions so your suggestion that we just write down what they tell us is pure BS, unless they are providing a measurement of urine, the number and color/ consistency of stools, or vitals.  I'm often leaving almost 2 hours after shift change because I'm too busy doing patient care and my charting gets done once the shift change comes and relieves me. I take up to 8 patients, you must be in CA or some ohe state tht mandates a 1:4 ratio.  I WISH I only took 4.  But now, we are completely off topic.  I'll chill in the cut for now, if anyone else wants to continue this, let's do it in another thread.


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## rescue99 (Jul 3, 2010)

8jimi8 said:


> This is nothing but ignorance.  I work nights and more often without a tech. And those "notes" that we take are not what the techs tell us.  Techs are not educated enough to provide evaluations of treatments or conditions so your suggestion that we just write down what they tell us is pure BS, unless they are providing a measurement of urine, the number and color/ consistency of stools, or vitals.  I'm often leaving almost 2 hours after shift change because I'm too busy doing patient care and my charting gets done once the shift change comes and relieves me. I take up to 8 patients, you must be in CA or some ohe state tht mandates a 1:4 ratio.  I WISH I only took 4.  But now, we are completely off topic.  I'll chill in the cut for now, if anyone else wants to continue this, let's do it in another thread.



Ignorance my tush....I've been there and done it so please...stop pretending. 
The floors I worked were step down and acute. So many of our folks were so very sick. Nurses topped out at 5 while techs got anywhere from 10-32 and NO, I am not suggesting nurses took our notes.....I am saying it was absolute fact! Few nurses got off their butts except to do meds and last vitals. There were a few good ones but not many. Not many at all. 

I will say that ER, ICU, CCU, PEDs and Post-OP are run quite differently and everyone is busy no matter which shift.


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## 8jimi8 (Jul 3, 2010)

rescue99 said:


> Ignorance my tush....I've been there and done it so please...stop pretending.
> The floors I worked were step down and acute. So many of our folks were so very sick. Nurses topped out at 5 while techs got anywhere from 10-32 and NO, I am not suggesting nurses took our notes.....I am saying it was absolute fact! Few nurses got off their butts except to do meds and last vitals. There were a few good ones but not many. Not many at all.
> 
> I will say that ER, ICU, CCU, PEDs and Post-OP are run quite differently and everyone is busy no matter which shift.



I think you are the one pretending.  If you are doing nursing care and doing their assessments, why aren't you a nurse?  Edited to say, in fact why dont you post up your job desciption because I doubt you did much more than your job.  So tell us what hospital this is so I can warn  everyone not to go there because they have pcts doing nursing care.


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## AVPU (Jul 6, 2010)

dudemanguy said:


> The thing is, rarely will an EMT-basic be saving anyones ***. The number of times that occurs seems pretty rare to me, especially if your talking about doing IFTs.
> 
> EMT-Basic is a job that requires relatively little training, is not labor intensive, is a job many considering exciting and will do for free, and has a massive surplus of job seekers looking for a limited number of paid positions.
> 
> There isnt really any point in complaining about the low pay. If someone wants decent pay, become a nurse, x ray tech or some other health care profession that requires a decent education. Or at least get paramedic certified.



Wow. Lots of judgement in these posts. Dude, I know what I'm getting in to. I left a well-paying, cushy career in corporate Amer to be a part of EMS b/c I WANTED TO. I am fully capable of taking personal responsibility for my choices. I was just surprised at the pay, that's all. And I wanted to get others' perspectives, esp. since I'm new to the field. Reading these posts, apparently I touched off a sensitive topic for some. I'm not a complainer, and don't like being labeled as one. I like discussion. If you don't believe me, do a search for some of the other threads I have started.


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## emt seeking first job (Jul 6, 2010)

1. the cost of living may make $8.55/hr the same as $15 in NYC.

2. EMT's do get some down time.

3. I would rather be an EMT making less, and keep exspenses down, than have a higher paying time sucking job that killed me inside.

4. You should do the best for your patients because it is the right thing to do, not for $.

Just keep at it, do your best, go to paramedic school, and see what your options are after 3 years of experieince.


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## WolfmanHarris (Jul 6, 2010)

Education leads to improved conditions.
In Ontario Primary Care Paramedics (BLS) make between $28 and $38/hr depending on the area of the province (higher in higher cost of living areas) and gross about 70-80k before OT. There were two main causes of this:
1) The downloading of EMS from provincial jurisdiction (and a hodgepodge of government, private, hospital, volunteer etc) to Upper Tier Municipalities (Counties/Regions) and a nearly universal provider model (Municipal Third Service).
2) The increase in PCP education from one year to two years.

Talking to most medics who worked 10 years ago when the downloading happened and the increase in education shortly thereafter, they say that EMS has improved by leaps and bounds. Paramedics can support a home and family comfortably on their incomes, have good benefits and pension and we're seeing increases in recognition and respect by the public (nice) and the greater health care community (essential to progressing further).

There seems to be a great deal of cart before the horse thinking whenever the topics of pay, respect, working conditions, etc come up. All these providers want these things, but seem resistant to creating the conditions that make them possible first.


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## TransportJockey (Jul 6, 2010)

WolfmanHarris said:


> Education leads to improved conditions.
> In Ontario Primary Care Paramedics (BLS) make between $28 and $38/hr depending on the area of the province (higher in higher cost of living areas) and gross about 70-80k before OT. There were two main causes of this:
> 1) The downloading of EMS from provincial jurisdiction (and a hodgepodge of government, private, hospital, volunteer etc) to Upper Tier Municipalities (Counties/Regions) and a nearly universal provider model (Municipal Third Service).
> 2) The increase in PCP education from one year to two years.
> ...



Sounds like Canada's model is one to start emulating here in the states. Then again anything is better than what we have currently


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## DrParasite (Jul 6, 2010)

dudemanguy said:


> The thing is, rarely will an EMT-basic be saving anyones ***. The number of times that occurs seems pretty rare to me, especially if your talking about doing IFTs.


 you know how many medics are doing IFTs?  I believe Sasha and our "new" medic from Texas all do IFTs as their FT jobs, and they are both paramedics, and I know there are more there.  Not only that, but EMTs do 911s, not just IFTs.  Furthermore, if you don't believe that EMTs save anyone's ***, than I would assert that most people in EMS don't save anyone's ***; EMTs/Paramedics stabilize the patient as best they can, and transport them to the hospital for definitive care, where the doctors "save someone's ***."


dudemanguy said:


> EMT-Basic is a job that requires relatively little training, is not labor intensive, is a job many considering exciting and will do for free, and has a massive surplus of job seekers looking for a limited number of paid positions.


 are you kidding me?  not labor intensive?  you don't consider carrying a 300 lbs person down three flights of stairs to be labor intensive?  you don't consider 15 emergency jobs in a 12 hour shift to be labor intensive?  relatively little training?  well compared to some other training certs, sure.  Then again, a nurse has relatively little training when compared to that of a nurse practitioner. Plus, while an EMT course is equivalent to a 6 college credit course, there are also many CEU classes and reputable agencies require before they will even look at you for a job. 


dudemanguy said:


> There isnt really any point in complaining about the low pay. If someone wants decent pay, become a nurse, x ray tech or some other health care profession that requires a decent education. Or at least get paramedic certified.


everyone should be able to survive in their job.  EMS pays poorly primarily due to low financial support from it's backers.  Few are tax supported, and those are that do, still need to bill to stay "in the black."  hospitals pay poorly so they can stay in the black based on revenue.  and privates are only interested in making a profit, even if it's at the expense of the employee.  Plus the whole "every employee is replaceable" doesn't help the situation.


jtpaintball70 said:


> Sounds like Canada's model is one to start emulating here in the states. Then again anything is better than what we have currently


So then move to Canada if you think our system is so bad, I'm sure you will be MUCH happier


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## TransportJockey (Jul 6, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> So then move to Canada if you think our system is so bad, I'm sure you will be MUCH happier



Nah, I'd much rather get my education and then work towards reforming the system here. Plus I like my guns WAY too much to move to Candada... or CA, or NY or NJ, or IL


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## JPINFV (Jul 6, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> you know how many medics are doing IFTs?  I believe Sasha and our "new" medic from Texas all do IFTs as their FT jobs, and they are both paramedics, and I know there are more there.  Not only that, but EMTs do 911s, not just IFTs.  Furthermore, if you don't believe that EMTs save anyone's ***, than I would assert that most people in EMS don't save anyone's ***; EMTs/Paramedics stabilize the patient as best they can, and transport them to the hospital for definitive care, where the doctors "save someone's ***."


The vast majority of what EMTs do is transport (taxi service) and provide supplemental oxygen (which the vast majority of patients don't need). If you need to hype up the entire transport side (which puts EMS on par with "home boy ambulance services"), then maybe you need to reevaluate your motives. 




> are you kidding me?  not labor intensive?  you don't consider carrying a 300 lbs person down three flights of stairs to be labor intensive?  you don't consider 15 emergency jobs in a 12 hour shift to be labor intensive?


Labor intensive is a relative term. I can name plenty of jobs that are much more intensive than EMS. Similarly, X jobs in X hours is a terrible way to look at it. If you want to look at it that way, caring for 15 patients, one at a time for short periods of time over a 12 hour shift puts prehospital care as relatively unintensive when compared to the patient loads that seen by nurses and physicians (who, unlike nurses, aren't legally limited to the number of patients they have to juggle). The patient to provider ratio is magnitudes higher in the ED compared to prehospital.  



> relatively little training?  well compared to some other training certs, sure.  Then again, a nurse has relatively little training when compared to that of a nurse practitioner. Plus, while an EMT course is equivalent to a 6 college credit course, there are also many CEU classes and reputable agencies require before they will even look at you for a job.


Really? The best thing you can use as evidence is college credits (which most EMT programs don't qualify for). Credits don't tell you how hard or, in the case of EMT training, insanely simplistic said training was. Heck, general chemistry, organic chemistry, and upperdivision cell biology were all worth 4 units. Are you going to try to tell me that those courses are somehow the same difficulty as each other and easier than a 120 or so hour EMT class. Please, tell me that EMT training is easier than organic chemistry based only on units.  



> everyone should be able to survive in their job.  EMS pays poorly primarily due to low financial support from it's backers.  Few are tax supported, and those are that do, still need to bill to stay "in the black."  hospitals pay poorly so they can stay in the black based on revenue.  and privates are only interested in making a profit, even if it's at the expense of the employee.  Plus the whole "every employee is replaceable" doesn't help the situation.


EMS providers are paid less because supply far outstrips demand. That is the major reason and the best solution (increase education requirements) solves this by increasing demand (higher education means more uses and more usefulness) and decreasing supply (less idiots in the field who were barely able to rub 2 neurons together to figure out that you treat bleeding with pressure). Additionally, I'd argue that most individuals can supply on an EMS wage. Survive in a manner that they want to become accustomed to? No. However an iPhone, cable TV, broadband, and a brand new Lexus isn't necessary for survival. Similarly, raising a family on a single entry level wage isn't something that should be expected. It's the individuals job to manage their money and financial liabilities, not their employer. 


> So then move to Canada if you think our system is so bad, I'm sure you will be MUCH happier



Brilliant idea. Instead of trying to advance EMS in the US, we can just run out everyone who actually wants to promote and advance the field. Oh, wait, that's one of the reasons there's already a serious brain drain in the field.


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## JPINFV (Jul 6, 2010)

jtpaintball70 said:


> Plus I like my guns WAY too much to move to Candada... or CA, or NY or NJ, or IL




3 words. McDonald v Chicago. 2nd amendment is an individual right that cannot be abridged by the individual states.


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## TransportJockey (Jul 6, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> 3 words. McDonald v Chicago. 2nd amendment is an individual right that cannot be abridged by the individual states.



It's more of not being able to use any of them once I get there cause I have magazines that are illegal in each of those  But I am very curious to see how that ruling changes state laws, since CA is a good example of not allowing certain types of firearms that are not already on their approved list.
 Being from NM, state law cannot restrict any more than the state constitution did from the beginning, so it's a great state for shooters


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## WolfmanHarris (Jul 6, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> you know how many medics are doing IFTs?
> not labor intensive?  relatively little training?  well compared to some other training certs, sure.  So then move to Canada if you think our system is so bad, I'm sure you will be MUCH happier



Case in point. Deny shortcomings, shift blame and responsibility and suggest that those who do not do the same are not worthy, or some such rot. This approach while common, is certainly not productive.

Criticizing training and working conditions is not personal. It's not a question of motives or dedication. When I say 120 hours of training is not sufficient to train a competent provider of emergency care I am not saying "EMT Jones is an incompetent fool." I'm saying the system by which he was educated is failing the individual. When I say volunteerism is holding back EMS I'm not saying "Commitment to serving your community is starving my children."  And yet it seems every time we try to discuss these issues in general, everyone looks for their personal experience to be the exception that disproves the rule, since if it were otherwise than they may not be the model provider they hoped they were. No one is doubting the individuals, just trying to get everyone onside the fixing the problem. (Speaking in abstract of course since I'm not actually involved in the American system at all) With a crappy foundation you can only build so high.


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## Sassafras (Jul 6, 2010)

Call me a n00b, but recomending hard working American citizens move to another country instead of staying here and trying to improve what we have here seems rather inappropriate and xenophobic.  Why should they move to Canada just because they think a portion of their healthcare system may be something worth considering for our broken system?  How will that help Americans in the slightest by shipping off all the prehospital providers who want to see something change to Canada?


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## somePerson (Jul 7, 2010)

*EMT wages arent that horrible*

People complain about being paid minimum wage, but in reality, depending on where you work, it's the easiest job and the income can be decent. I worked at Medix ambulance in south south Orange county as my first EMT job, my salery started at $8.00 hr. The normal full time schedule is 3 24's so 40 hrs at $8/hr and 32 hrs at $12/hr. With a little overtime I easily made 45-50k a year with my the "worthless" minimum wage. Anyone in EMS/FD industry knows people make a large part of their salery in OT anyway. Not a horrible job considering I could still go to school full time.

It might sound horrible having a low hourly wage, but it's the easiest money I ever made while watching TV, playing video games, working out, and sleeping. 

People complain about Janitors or whatever making more an hour, but if you work 40 hours a week at $12 an hour in a normal 9-5 it's a lot less money than working 72 (32 hrs ot) making $8 an hour.

I'll take my mon/tues/thursday shifts I used to have with 4 days off and a 3 day weekend making minimum wage over any of those 9-5 jobs making more an hour. To each his own, but you can have the $16 an hr ER tech job being on your feet all day long (I realised that wasn't for me after my clinicals during medic school), while I take a nap at a station while running 3-6 calls a day on a 24.

On another note, working as a private Medic for a slightly higher hourly wage does get a little discouraging, while working 20 times harder and having more responsabilities/liability, but it's all good.


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## Cake (Jul 7, 2010)

somePerson said:


> People complain about being paid minimum wage, but in reality, depending on where you work, it's the easiest job and the income can be decent. I worked at Medix ambulance in south south Orange county as my first EMT job, my salery started at $8.00 hr. The normal full time schedule is 3 24's so 40 hrs at $8/hr and 32 hrs at $12/hr. With a little overtime I easily made 45-50k a year with my the "worthless" minimum wage. Anyone in EMS/FD industry knows people make a large part of their salery in OT anyway. Not a horrible job considering I could still go to school full time.
> 
> It might sound horrible having a low hourly wage, but it's the easiest money I ever made while watching TV, playing video games, working out, and sleeping.
> 
> ...



how common is your setup though?  Could your situation just be a diamond in the rough?


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jul 7, 2010)

As I stated before, I was an EMT-B in 2003 making $8.00 an hour and that also included some rescue services. There was no OT because I was a part time employee and I had no medical benefits, only a savings thing I could put MY OWN money into. 
My friend was as an assistant manager at KFC making way more than me and had benefits. Plus my friend did not have to pay hundreds of dollars for training, hold a state and national certification(also hundreds of dollars) and had no CEU's to keep up on. Her job risk and risk of being sued or injured where also no where no where near mine. I was pulling people out of flaming wreckages and she was slinging chicken.

I know an EMT-B does not have the much education but there are just to many entry level positions to compare it to that require only on the job education, or a very small amount of vocational training or no education at all. Most of the jobs pay more.


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## usalsfyre (Jul 7, 2010)

schulz said:


> As I stated before, I was an EMT-B in 2003 making $8.00 an hour and that also included some rescue services. There was no OT because I was a part time employee and I had no medical benefits, only a savings thing I could put MY OWN money into.
> My friend was as an assistant manager at KFC making way more than me and had benefits. Plus my friend did not have to pay hundreds of dollars for training, hold a state and national certification(also hundreds of dollars) and had no CEU's to keep up on. Her job risk and risk of being sued or injured where also no where no where near mine. I was pulling people out of flaming wreckages and she was slinging chicken.
> 
> I know an EMT-B does not have the much education but there are just to many entry level positions to compare it to that require only on the job education, or a very small amount of vocational training or no education at all. Most of the jobs pay more.



Schulz, how many people applied for your job? How many people applied for the KFC manager's job? There's the answer. 

Our EMT's make in the range of $8/hr starting out. This is on a 24/48 work schedule, and a fair bit of overtime is included. When totaled, our basics make around 26k/yr, which is far more than minimum wage. In addition overtime is available for those who want to work it


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## akflightmedic (Jul 7, 2010)

For reference, there are 5200 KFC restaurants in the United States.

So lets say 1 asst manager per store = 5200 jobs.

How many EMT positions are there in the USA?

This site says 600,000 EMTs and growing. However 600,000 people does not = 600,000 jobs...especially if you read on and get to the part where it says there are only 52,000 ambulances in the country.

http://www.naemt.org/become_a_member/careers/aboutems.aspx

Besides, management is much more difficult to learn and perform than EMS. Having made that leap a few years ago myself, it is amazing everything that goes on behind the scenes that the employees are not aware of. All they see is the easy stuff and an effective manager can make it look super easy to the uninformed. 

EMT is pretty darn easy to learn and do. We simply can not over glorify ourselves which then leads us into that false sense of entitlement. Once you cross into that mode of thinking, it is very difficult to appreciate the big picture and realize how small your role within it actually is.

I am not saying EMTs are scum because my statements apply to all levels of EMS. For some reason, we think because we "save lives" daily, that we should be paid more even though our training is minimal currently (speaking for majority here).

When you keep it real and remind yourself it is a job which you perform to the best of your ability and nothing more, meaning it is NOT a lifestyle, then you can gain a sense of satisfaction when you get your paycheck because ultimately, we are overpaid for the qualifications and amount of work we do. 

It is to easy to become an EMS worker therefore more people line up every day to take the job you may despise due to low pay. As you move on, someone else fills your slot and is happy to have that low wage. It is like digging a hole at the beach, it constantly fills in.

Until it becomes more difficult to enter the profession, meaning education standards are raised without the pay initially, nothing is going to change.


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## sdadam (Jul 7, 2010)

Yep I agree AK,

Education standards must go up. Nothing will improve until that happens.


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## WolfmanHarris (Jul 7, 2010)

akflightmedic said:


> Until it becomes more difficult to enter the profession, meaning education standards are raised without the pay initially, nothing is going to change.



I didn't intend to make my posts "Ontario EMS is awesome, here's why" but it does seem to provide some good contrast.

When I started my employment just over one year ago I was hired at my service in a group of 28.

Flashback two years ago and over 1000 applicants applied to enter the two year PCP program at my College for 45 spots. Applicants in Ontario are limited to applying to five schools and these rates are similar. There are 15 public PCP programs at Ontario Colleges. There are also 3 private college programs, but depending on who you ask they're borderline medic mills. Either way they run compressed programs more frequently. We can estimated between 750-1000 students beginning the program.

The average College program usually sees 40-50% attrition over the course of the program with some students failing due to academics, some failing to meet provincial standards for lifting, some failing clinicals/placement and other withdrawing by choice. 300-500 grads who will sit to write the provincial A-EMCA exam. Pass rates are fairly high here but a few still don't make it.

Of those that are graduated, not all will find a job in EMS right away. There are 50 municipal EMS services in Ontario (42 directly delivered as third service, 8 contracted either privately or by the hospital) and 7 First Nations EMS Services (all directly delivered third service). Not all areas of the province are expanding, so most are hiring for attrition more than service enhancements.

The transfer industry is entirely separate from EMS. Employees usually only require a first aid or First Responder certificate, though there are a fair number of PCP's that haven't found work yet wallowing in these jobs. Not a tonne though. Minimum wage in Ontario is now $10.75/hr and these jobs pay between $13 and $15. This industry's entirely unregulated though and in desperate need of reform.

It is not easy to get qualified to work here and it can be difficult to get a job, but once in EMS a Paramedic is making good money, with good benefits and is in a career. KFC is certainly not a competing employer.


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## fortsmithman (Jul 7, 2010)

Instead of complaining how low EMT salaries are why not just go back to school and become paramedics.


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## JPINFV (Jul 7, 2010)

I'd argue that the actual responsibilities (managing other works, customer service, inventory, money management, etc) is much greater for a manager than an EMT.


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## AVPU (Jul 7, 2010)

fortsmithman said:


> Instead of complaining how low EMT salaries are why not just go back to school and become paramedics.



Well I just might if I like the work enough


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## John E (Jul 7, 2010)

*As the famous philosopher...*

Chris Rock once said, "minimum wage means if they could pay you any less, they would..."


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## DrParasite (Jul 7, 2010)

fortsmithman said:


> Instead of complaining how low EMT salaries are why not just go back to school and become paramedics.


Because medic salaries are pretty low too, and most medics I know work at least two jobs to make a decent living.

not only that, but I know places where an EMT working nights makes more per hour than a paramedic working days.  really makes me want to go to medic school to make the big bucks.


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## somePerson (Jul 7, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> Because medic salaries are pretty low too, and most medics I know work at least two jobs to make a decent living.
> 
> not only that, but I know places where an EMT working nights makes more per hour than a paramedic working days.  really makes me want to go to medic school to make the big bucks.




If you enjoy EMS in any capacity and want to make a career out of it, a medic is something you would want to be, atleast in my opinion. If you're doing EMS for the money... Not to belittle the EMT position, but it 99% of EMT calls, a taxi driver with a stretcher could do the same thing EMT's do with no difference in patient outcome.

Atleast as medic you can make a difference in patient outcome once in a while, even though a huge chunk of calls are BS.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jul 8, 2010)

I am all for education, but if you guys think thats the only thing thats going to raise pay, your living in a fantasy world. 
AKF you should know education alone in EMS will not raise pay sense you use to be an Oregon medic yourself. We have had a mandatory AAS program or bachelors in other fields in place for all Paramedics in Oregon for over 10 years. Portland has only one 911 contract and is the busiest EMS system in Oregon. The starting base wage for Paramedics last year was $39,000.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jul 8, 2010)

somePerson said:


> a taxi driver with a stretcher could do the same thing EMT's do with no difference in patient outcome.


Maybe true, but Taxi drivers make more... would it at least be fare to say EMT's should make as much as taxi drivers? Plus Taxi drivers do not have to carry there customers down many flights of stairs.


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## JPINFV (Jul 8, 2010)

schulz said:


> Maybe true, but Taxi drivers make more... would it at least be fare to say EMT's should make as much as taxi drivers? Plus Taxi drivers do not have to carry there customers down many flights of stairs.



Issues:

Supply and demand of workers.

Taxi drivers get almost 100% reimbursement for their work. What's the reimbursement rate at your work and what percent is due to improper and/or inadequate documentation?


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## nkara (Jul 8, 2010)

I believe where I live they start emt-b's at $10 hour and cardiac at $15.  Not exactly sure.  I know for me working as a cna right now I make $13 and I don't care what they tell you that's not enough for what I do either. :wacko:


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## WolfmanHarris (Jul 8, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Taxi drivers get almost 100% reimbursement for their work. What's the reimbursement rate at your work and what percent is due to improper and/or inadequate documentation?



Fee for service seems to be a losing model for EMS. My preferred (and most familiar) is a tax-base funded system. Fees (if any) can offset costs, but the service isn't dependent on them.

Failing that, the other viable funding formula I see is the run EMS as a loss leader for hospitals. If they accept a certain amount of lost revenue on BS in EMS (and the ED for that matter) as a way to get patients admitted where their more complicated care offsets the money lost in EMS and ED. Can't speak too much to this, as private insurance is something of a foreign concept to me, so I'm not totally clear how reimbursement works.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jul 8, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Issues:
> What's the reimbursement rate at your work and what percent is due to improper and/or inadequate documentation?


I make a lot more than 8 bucks an hour and have some benefits. But I am not a basic. I currently work for a non-transport municipal 3rd party. Some of my wage and our funding also comes from taxes. I do Mostly Occupational health and special event stand bye. The patients are not charged anything, not from me or my agency anyway. We bill the client holding the event a flat rate or the facility needing medical staff.
If I choose to call AMR they are billed anywhere from 300-1000 for a transport I am told.


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## akflightmedic (Jul 8, 2010)

I was only an OR license holder as that is where my Medical Director was...I worked overseas under his license. So pay issues, I am not aware of but 39K a year for Single Role Medic sounds pretty darn good compared to most places in the US.

But by increasing standards, you diminish the supply while demand remains same. If this were done on a National level instead of one state trying to lead the charge, I think you would see a pendulum swing...


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## JPINFV (Jul 8, 2010)

WolfmanHarris said:


> Fee for service seems to be a losing model for EMS. My preferred (and most familiar) is a tax-base funded system. Fees (if any) can offset costs, but the service isn't dependent on them.


While I agree that a tax based system for 911 work is prefered, conversations like this revolve around the system currently in place, not the system you'd like to go to. Additionally, 911 being a tax based system doesn't mean that non-emergent IFT is going to be tax based. 




> Failing that, the other viable funding formula I see is the run EMS as a loss leader for hospitals. If they accept a certain amount of lost revenue on BS in EMS (and the ED for that matter) as a way to get patients admitted where their more complicated care offsets the money lost in EMS and ED. Can't speak too much to this, as private insurance is something of a foreign concept to me, so I'm not totally clear how reimbursement works.


The only way that prehosptial treatment and transport can work as a loss leader is if the hospital can choose to divert the more profitable chief complaints to their hospital, regardless of distance. The ED basically works as a loss leader because that's where a large amount of admissions comes from. EMS, on the other hand, is not set up to function like that. I don't think anyone is going to look forward to the day where the protocol reads, "CVAs, MIs, and MVCs with insurance all come our hospital, everyone else goes elsewhere."


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## JPINFV (Jul 8, 2010)

schulz said:


> I make a lot more than 8 bucks an hour and have some benefits. But I am not a basic. I currently work for a non-transport municipal 3rd party. Some of my wage and our funding also comes from taxes. I do Mostly Occupational health and special event stand bye. The patients are not charged anything, not from me or my agency anyway. We bill the client holding the event a flat rate or the facility needing medical staff.
> If I choose to call AMR they are billed anywhere from 300-1000 for a transport I am told.



So if you're mostly doing event standby and occupational health, then you're mostly not carrying people down stairs and your prior argument is a non-issue. Additionally, if you value your time at more than $8/hr for the work being done (e.g. truly enjoying a particular job understandably drops the momentary value of your time since you're gaining more than money), then why work there?


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## Pinknikkij (Aug 5, 2011)

Any updates on central fl pay?


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## Sandog (Aug 6, 2011)

TransportJockey said:


> There's a surplus of EMT-Bs everywhere, and they just aren't worth paying more due to that and that they're not educated enough to be worth more



Speak for yourself.


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## JPINFV (Aug 6, 2011)

Sandog said:


> Speak for yourself.


Yea... sorry, but for the most part yea. My second EMT job was after I finished a BS and was 3/4ths of the way through an MS. If I was planning on sticking around, I probably could have gotten more than a few more dollars an hour than I was getting. It being a temporary (as in count the months on 2 hands), I stuck with the standard pay scale. 


The problem with EMS and it's career ladder is that someone sitting in an ambulance just running calls isn't going to be changed all that much by education level since the expectation for those people is going to be based on the lowest common denominator and "is the person willing to do their job correctly?" (which is commonly a "no" hence why it's important). The problem is that the career ladder for EMS that doesn't consist of "let's have positions so we can say we have a career ladder (congrats, you're an EMS "captain" commanding a crew of 2 on an ambulance) is more often than not positions that require a provider to be more off an ambulance than on or the dreaded IFT calls (CCTs)

EMS, pick a career ladder or pick staying on a 911 ambulance. More often than not, you get to choose one or the other, but not both.


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## emscrazy1 (Aug 6, 2011)

Pinknikkij said:


> Any updates on central fl pay?



You're looking at about $9.50


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