# Local FF's shopping while on duty



## nemedic (Feb 22, 2010)

BOSTON (WBZ) ― If you saw a fire truck parked in the fire lane of a grocery store, chances are you would assume there was some kind of emergency inside. But when the I-Team saw a ladder truck outside a grocery store our hidden cameras spotted on-duty Boston firefighters leisurely wandering the aisles, shopping for sushi, frozen cookie dough and toothbrushes. 

Link to the full story/video:
http://wbztv.com/iteam/boston.fire.trucks.2.1480631.html

And an XtraNorml video rebuttal that was made by a local FF:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWo7Xed07sU


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## JPINFV (Feb 22, 2010)

Without reading the article, provided it's only one unit from a station, meh, big deal. Fire fighters have to eat too. Sure, given the options, I'd rather they send the SUV to do the shopping, but Boston Fire has bigger fish to fry (mandatory random drug testing anyone? Break pads on the engines?).


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## akflightmedic (Feb 22, 2010)

I have not read the story nor have I watched the videos, however when I worked for the county, it was common for us to decide in the morning what we were doing for lunch and dinner and then send either the ambulance or engine to get the food.

Usually the engine went cause we were always busy on calls and there was a store well within their coverage area.

When deciding food for 5-8 people, it is much easier to decide the morning of instead of the shift 48 hours prior because things change; people get ill, are floated to other stations, so you wait till the ones that are on duty that day to make the decisions.

I see nothing wrong with the practice, it is a good chance to do PR while out as well. Working in Florida though, we always got the seniors calling and complaining about their tax dollars being wasted and when we explained we work 24 hour shifts and need to shop for everyone, they usually accepted that.

As noted, there are much bigger fish to fry...


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## MrBrown (Feb 22, 2010)

It would be so much easier to pick up chicks at the grocery store if I had some bunker pants and red suspenders to go over my blue fire service t shirt


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## ExpatMedic0 (Feb 22, 2010)

I see Portland Fire and Rescue in the store every week with there engine outside... not a big deal, they all live in a station and have to eat on duty.

although when I did see them block traffic once with a ladder truck to go into starbucks... I have to say I laughed.


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## fortsmithman (Feb 22, 2010)

I don't see what the problem is.


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## Aprz (Feb 22, 2010)

I don't see a problem either... I think people are just trying to stir up trouble.


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## rescue99 (Feb 22, 2010)

nemedic said:


> BOSTON (WBZ) ― If you saw a fire truck parked in the fire lane of a grocery store, chances are you would assume there was some kind of emergency inside. But when the I-Team saw a ladder truck outside a grocery store our hidden cameras spotted on-duty Boston firefighters leisurely wandering the aisles, shopping for sushi, frozen cookie dough and toothbrushes.
> 
> Link to the full story/video:
> http://wbztv.com/iteam/boston.fire.trucks.2.1480631.html
> ...



So? What's the point? They do have to shop for their station.


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## medic417 (Feb 22, 2010)

Sadly they will now be forced to stay at the station and starve if they fail to bring food with them when they come on duty.  Darn busy bodies.

The big problem is per the report "We saw Engine 32 shopping at a Stop and Shop. Not only was it out their district, it was out of the city of Boston. The store is located in Somerville."  

Why did they make a long drive when they could hit the local?   
  These guys may cause all to be punished.


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## lightsandsirens5 (Feb 22, 2010)

I see nothing wrong with taking the engine to the supermarket. Have seen it done many times. And I beleive in WA state they are allowed to park in the fire lane be it an emergency or a shopping trip. 

Makes sense actually. Just think. If they were to park out in the lot, they would more than likely have to park way out in the empty part of the lot since an engine would take up like four spaces. Being parked in the fire lane eliminates having to cross the entire lot to get to the rig. And it also seems like stupidity to send part of the crew in an SYV three minutes away to get lunch when the whole crew can go in the engine and have no increase in response times. I for one am willing to pay the extra $50 (probably less) a year per taxpayer for FD trips to the supermarket in order to maintain good response times.


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## medic417 (Feb 22, 2010)

A smart reporter would have focused on the dangers created by theses fire fighters abandoning their service area.  Much smarter and more easily defended.  Griping about getting food and parking in the fire lane is stupidity.


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## Shishkabob (Feb 22, 2010)

Who said reporters were smart?


Newsweek and the Quran anyone?


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## PotatoMedic (Feb 22, 2010)

This is just me going out on a limb but maybe they stopped by the store after a mutual aid?  With all that is wrong with this article I would not be surprised if Mr. Shortsleeve or sh*tsleeve or whatever his name is omitted something.


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## Hal9000 (Feb 22, 2010)

I've done this often with one particular ambulance company I worked with.  We were lucky enough to have stations-though not usually lucky enough to have the time to use them-and they were usually close to grocery stores.  We would venture out and one of us would go in with the radios and a pager, and the other would stay with the ambulance.  It always worked like a charm.


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## 8jimi8 (Feb 22, 2010)

Didn't read or watch.  No point.  This moron obviously can't think independently enough to report on real news...  

This just in!!!  House burns to the ground while firefighter washes hands after using the bathroom!!!1!!!1!!1!!!


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## VentMedic (Feb 22, 2010)

Like anything the privilege can be abused by some. There are some FDs that will empty out all 3 - 4 vehicles from each station (4 local stations), including the ladder truck, for all 3 meals, later go for snacks and of course stopping at various coffee houses because some FFs like Starbucks, some like Dunkin and some like Peets or whatever. When this is a daily occurence, that gets noticed. It also becomes a joke about "how many FFs does it take..." when you see 4 FD trucks and 10 - 12 FFs all shopping for each meal. Add on the other 3 stations and you have what looks like a FF convention each day/ 3x a day at some stores. Of course, we could also add on the personal errands that some trucks run when out driving around. 



lightsandsirens5 said:


> for one am willing to pay the extra $50 (probably less) a year per taxpayer for FD trips to the supermarket in order to maintain good response times.


 
Absolutely not! The tax rates are already beyond the cost of living for some families. To add an additional financial burden to these families whose taxes are already going to pay for the fuel and new trucks is asking alot. When a family making a modest living with a $200k house is hit with taxes anywhere from $12 - $35/$1000 assessed value and additional fees, to add another surcharge for FFs to make numerous trips to the stores and to pay for their tricked out kitchens and grills (also by tax payer money) might backfire as well as be an issue for excessive taxation. Thus, when the FD wants to petition for higher taxes to rennovate a station, again, the people might not be so willing and the FD won't want to give up any fluff expenditures. Right now taxes are a big issue since Fire in several states are trying to gain control over taxation sectors to apply mergers that will take over whatever county or private EMS services. 

Taxpayers do have a right to know where their money is being spent and how much of the expenditures are going for activities not directly related to a fire. 

Any homeowners here? Have you seriously look at your tax bills?



akflightmedic said:


> I see nothing wrong with the practice, it is a good chance to do PR while out as well. Working in Florida though, we always got the seniors calling and complaining about their tax dollars being wasted and when we explained we work 24 hour shifts and need to shop for everyone, they usually accepted that.


 
Shame on those stupid seniors for being concerned about their tax dollars. They should be willing to throw their retirement and fixed income at the FFs. Do you realize that not all of Florida is "Palm Beach"? Many people retired on from jobs with very modest incomes. When they first retired, prices and taxes may have been reasonable. Now FL is supporting some huge FDs and PS districts as well as the schools, parks and roads or other infrastructure.  The last major election for a property tax ammendment also showed how much fluff was in the costs to the taxpayers when the books were opened.


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## medicdan (Feb 22, 2010)

just for the record... The station that engine is based out of is nearby the Charleston (Boston) and Sommerville line... the supermarket they went to is less then a mile from their station (as the crow flies), and has easy access to major roads to get to any call. Furthermore,  there are no other large supermarkets nearby.


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## PotatoMedic (Feb 22, 2010)

never mind... don't want to offend anyone.


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## medic417 (Feb 22, 2010)

FireWA1 said:


> This is just me going out on a limb but maybe they stopped by the store after a mutual aid?  With all that is wrong with this article I would not be surprised if Mr. Shortsleeve or sh*tsleeve or whatever his name is omitted something.



Actually no they were not returning from a call or from training.  The reporter did research and it was confirmed it was out to get food.  

I am relieved that even though out of its service area it was at the nearest store though if dan is correct.


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## Shishkabob (Feb 22, 2010)

medic417 said:


> Actually no they were not returning from a call or from training.  The reporter did research and it was confirmed it was out to get food.



You'd think someone that did enough research to see why they were there would also have the brain power to research the daily life, rules and regulations regarding such situations...


Just a thought.  ^_^


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## medic417 (Feb 22, 2010)

Linuss said:


> You'd think someone that did enough research to see why they were there would also have the brain power to research the daily life, rules and regulations regarding such situations...
> 
> 
> Just a thought.  ^_^



But lets see the reporters point.  Playing the devils advocate and using only facts.  That's a lot of money ( fuel and wear and tear )for people to drive that big equipment to go shopping.  And tax payers are tired of the games being played with their money.  Heck honestly with what they are paid why can't they afford to bring food with them to work then only leave if there's a fire.


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## akflightmedic (Feb 22, 2010)

VentMedic said:


> Shame on those stupid seniors for being concerned about their tax dollars. They should be willing to throw their retirement and fixed income at the FFs. Do you realize that not all of Florida is "Palm Beach"? Many people retired on from jobs with very modest incomes. When they first retired, prices and taxes may have been reasonable. Now FL is supporting some huge FDs and PS districts as well as the schools, parks and roads or other infrastructure.  The last major election for a property tax ammendment also showed how much fluff was in the costs to the taxpayers when the books were opened.



I wouldn't know as I have never been to or worked in "Palm Beach", but the other 4 counties I have lived or worked in...way above Palm Beach, they were full of seasonal seniors (snowbirds) and they were quick to remind us that their tax dollars are important...almost as important as MY tax dollars which I paid as well while also living on a pretty set income with a family to support.

I am one of the first to defend the "weak" as I can and do appreciate their situation but when the calls originated out of a very certain area...think of it as our own Boca Raton...it is hard to take serious.

I do know the privilege can and does get abused, as does every other privilege in life, overall however, there is nothing wrong with the practice. 

And as for the engine parking right up front, when I worked for an ALS FD, once we determined what we were going to buy, one person stayed in the parking lot in the engine to monitor radios (secondary monitoring) and the truck and we ALWAYS parked way out in the lot so as not to disturb anyone.


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## 281mustang (Feb 22, 2010)

I'm not aware of any career departments that _don't_ go shopping while on duty. Some of you are really scraping at the bottem of the barrel.


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## nemedic (Feb 22, 2010)

I see no issue with what has happened, for the follwoing reasons:

1. The store is withing a mile of their station, and actually CLOSER than the closest store in their district. (Which happens to only be a small convenience store, but that's beside the point). 

2. It is much simpler and efficient to send the crew out to get everything for the day than to send someone or a person at a time in their POVs. Reason being is that if their is a call while out shopping, the entire crew could be at the truck within a minuteor two and be rolling to the call, which is roughly the same response from tones to truck rolling out of the station.

3. It keeps crew integrity. Think of how horrendous the response times would be if a call came in while 1 or more of the crew was out in POVs getting food for the day? And for those of you that might be thinking "send out the SUV, supervisor car, etc, the same applies, as well as nullifying the argument about wasting fuel. Let alone trying to coordinate that for every station in a department the size of Boston.

4. How many people think that the film crew went for lunch, coffee, or dinner ONLY after going back to the news station and getting their POVs. 

5. If there was an emergency that required utilization of the fire lane for emergency vehicles, they would have been able to hear it on the radio and move it, or in the more likely scenario, would have responded mutual aid to the stop& shop anyways.

Now I agree those that take the truck to dunks, then starbucks, then honey dew, ..... are wasteful, but all going at once, .....


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## JPINFV (Feb 22, 2010)

nemedic said:


> And for those of you that might be thinking "send out the SUV, supervisor car, etc, the same applies, as well as nullifying the argument about wasting fuel. Let alone trying to coordinate that for every station in a department the size of Boston.


Ok... send out the fire SUV to get food at the stations that have a fire SUV. If it's a single engine station, than there's no other option. Sure, you're still spending fuel, but are you going to seriously suggest that a fire engine or truck gets the same gas mileage as a SUV? Similarly, want to compare the maintenance cost per mile between an SUV and a fire truck or engine?



> 4. How many people think that the film crew went for lunch, coffee, or dinner ONLY after going back to the news station and getting their POVs.


Last time I checked, my tax dollars don't go to pay network news crews. 




> 5. If there was an emergency that required utilization of the fire lane for emergency vehicles, they would have been able to hear it on the radio and move it, or in the more likely scenario, would have responded mutual aid to the stop& shop anyways.


How about the problem that parking in emergency lanes generally causes havoc with the flow of traffic? Yes. The flow of traffic is more important that fire fighters at a grocery store for *anything* that is not an emergency call. Yes, I hate it when private ambulances (regardless of if they are a IFT or 911 unit) park in emergency lanes when running in to stores to shop or grab a bite to eat at a fast food or quick casual restaurant.


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## Hal9000 (Feb 22, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> How about the problem that parking in emergency lanes generally causes havoc with the flow of traffic? Yes. The flow of traffic is more important that fire fighters at a grocery store for *anything* that is not an emergency call. Yes, I hate it when private ambulances (regardless of if they are a IFT or 911 unit) park in emergency lanes when running in to stores to shop or grab a bite to eat at a fast food or quick casual restaurant.



I'm not out for approval, but I felt I should mention that when our ambulance utilized the lane, we never slowed down or blocked any traffic.  Of course, we only ever did it at that one particular store, and it was in Montana, where the skies are big and the parking lots empty...

However, I can see fire trucks being an annoyance in some of the more cramped lots.  I've never parked in a fire lane unless I knew that the trip was going to be a quick in-and-out, not only because we never had a break (pages always interrupting), but also because we always knew exactly what we were getting, like a bag of jerky.

I suppose that a bunch of people perusing the store might take significantly more time.


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## DrParasite (Feb 23, 2010)

well, tradition is the first problem.  FDs have been doing this for YEARS.  So getting them to change is probably not the best of idea, and will be fought.

from the emergency services perspective, I have no problems with this, provided it is still in their first due response area.  as long as they are available to respond to calls, I am not going to lose sleep over it.  and not every station has a "utility truck" that they can send on errands.  plus it keeps the crew together so they can respond for calls.

from the devils advocate point of view, do they really need to take a fire truck to go shopping?  they are there for 24 hours, why did one of the firefighters not go to the supermarket the day before and get all the shopping done for work?

side note: two of our EMS units went to the mall one day.  they were in their primary coverage area, available for calls.  they parked out of the way of traffic, in the fire lane, and entered through a service entrance.  the fire inspector took a picture of both units, and sent it to the agency's administration.  now no more parking in the fire lane, got to park in a space in the parking lot and if you get a call, run really fast to the ambulance.  and that's from a fellow MOS


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## 46Young (Feb 23, 2010)

Lets put this into perspective. We rotate who cooks dinner, the engine, the medic, or the truck/heavy rescue depending on the station. One piece goes. If you're driving a mile or two rond trip, how much is that really costing? Oftentimes we'll go after being out on the road for a call, before returning to the station. Sending a utility vehicle or a POV to the store is a horrible idea, since that crew member needs to meet up with the apparatus to respond, costing precious minutes. 

If you want to argue the waste of tax monies, then compare a one mile drive to the store vs the various entitlement programs. I'm sure that for every legit recipient there are five that game the system in some way, and I'm being generous with that figure. 

Payroll is where the bulk of the budget goes to, not fuel. You're arguing over pennies. Reform all of these entitlement programs, and hold those on these programs accountable, such as mandating them to find jobs within a certain time period, for one. Heck, even if you mandated the welfare recipient to be out of the house for eight hours a day, five days a week doing community service, instead of being allowed to stay at home, you would at least get some return on your money. Oh yeah, if they're forced out of the house and doing community service, perhaps they'll think about it, and realize that they could spend the same eight hours a day working, and making more than they're getting from the gov't. Just a thought.

Given that we're willing to run into burning buildings to save life and property, I think a trip the store with the apparatus to buy dinner supplies (not five trips to starbucks) isn't asking too much.


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## akflightmedic (Feb 23, 2010)

46Young said:


> Given that we're willing to run into burning buildings to save life and property



Damn dude...I was agreeing with you up until this drivel spewed forth.

You had a valid argument until you brought the hero complex mentality into the equation...I so hate hearing or seeing this crap.

Anyways, nice post until the end.


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## 46Young (Feb 23, 2010)

akflightmedic said:


> Damn dude...I was agreeing with you up until this drivel spewed forth.
> 
> You had a valid argument until you brought the hero complex mentality into the equation...I so hate hearing or seeing this crap.
> 
> Anyways, nice post until the end.



I'm sure you're as sick of that as I'm sick of hearing how EMS and fire should be divorced, and that fire should be downstaffed due to call volume. I chuckle every time I hear terms like firemonkey, hose jockey, and such. 

I'm a hardcore fire slayer. (I'm kidding, he says this in the video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWg7Vzpod5U


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## 46Young (Feb 23, 2010)

I just found this, an xtranormal video response to the reporter of the story in this thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aMUrT49Cbc


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## ExpatMedic0 (Feb 23, 2010)

Joe Shortsleeve is such a Douche! enough said


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## JPINFV (Feb 23, 2010)

Of course the story I want to hear coming out of Boston Fire is how in memory of Payne and CaHill, Boston Fire is now mandating random drug screening. Oh, wait... this is Boston we're talking about again.


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## Hal9000 (Feb 23, 2010)

akflightmedic said:


> Damn dude...I was agreeing with you up until this drivel spewed forth.
> 
> You had a valid argument until you brought the hero complex mentality into the equation...I so hate hearing or seeing this crap.
> 
> Anyways, nice post until the end.












46Young said:


> I just found this, an xtranormal video response to the reporter of the story in this thread:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aMUrT49Cbc








Eh, poor attitude...the profanity wasn't professional and seemed unneeded, much the same as the one before it.


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## papabear0276 (Feb 23, 2010)

medic417 said:


> The big problem is per the report "We saw Engine 32 shopping at a Stop and Shop. Not only was it out their district, it was out of the city of Boston. The store is located in Somerville."
> 
> Why did they make a long drive when they could hit the local?
> These guys may cause all to be punished.



Actually - this grocery store is the closest one to their house. It's only about 5 or 6 mins away.


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## medic417 (Feb 23, 2010)

papabear0276 said:


> Actually - this grocery store is the closest one to their house. It's only about 5 or 6 mins away.



Read all posts before you respond to one.  Some one else listed location and I acknowledged it.


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## triemal04 (Feb 23, 2010)

medic417 said:


> Read all posts before you respond to one.  Some one else listed location and I acknowledged it.


You did.  But then, you also leaped to the conclusion that the company must have been quite a ways out of their district without even doing the most basic checking; a quick look at googlemap would have shown how close Sommerville is to Boston. (though more needs to be known to make an INFORMED decision about this issue)  So it's worth repeating, just to make sure everyone has gotten the point; some people here can be...eh...slow sometimes.


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## medic417 (Feb 23, 2010)

triemal04 said:


> You did.  But then, you also leaped to the conclusion that the company must have been quite a ways out of their district without even doing the most basic checking; a quick look at googlemap would have shown how close Sommerville is to Boston. (though more needs to be known to make an INFORMED decision about this issue)  So it's worth repeating, just to make sure everyone has gotten the point; some people here can be...eh...slow sometimes.



No leap they were out of their district.  Sorry that most services require that you stay in district for all errands.


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## triemal04 (Feb 23, 2010)

medic417 said:


> No leap they were out of their district.  Sorry that most services require that you stay in district for all errands.


Sure, not disputing that.  And while it doesn't make it right, there is a difference between being less than a mile from their station yet still technically in another city, and being 5,10 miles, 10,15 minutes or what have you, away in another city.

Basically, my point was that many the poster was right in repeating what he said because, as I said, many people here are slow to pick up on some things, and many people do not bother to check anything for themselves.


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## JPINFV (Feb 23, 2010)

triemal04 said:


> Sure, not disputing that.  And while it doesn't make it right, there is a difference between being less than a mile from their station yet still technically in another city, and being 5,10 miles, 10,15 minutes or what have you, away in another city.



Heck, I'd argue that there's a difference between a mile away in a different city and being 5-10 miles from your station on the edge of your district or in another district in the city. Just because a unit is still in their city doesn't mean that they are in the best position to respond.


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## triemal04 (Feb 23, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Heck, I'd argue that there's a difference between a mile away in a different city and being 5-10 miles from your station on the edge of your district or in another district in the city. Just because a unit is still in their city doesn't mean that they are in the best position to respond.


Sure.  I probably should have said "district" in that post as well, since that is what companies are generally expected to stay in while not on a call.  I guess the point that seemed to have been ignored initially, and then had a pissy comment made about it when it was brought up again, is that just because someone is "in a different city" doesn't mean that they are really that far from where they should be.  And while not completely right, it's also not as bad as it sounds.

It's that whole thinking before you speak thing popping up again...


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## medic417 (Feb 23, 2010)

triemal04 said:


> It's that whole thinking before you speak thing popping up again...



Yes you should watch that along with the rest of us.


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## MS Medic (Feb 23, 2010)

Let these  Jeffrey Connolly and  Joe Shortsleve guys work a 24 or 48 hour shift on a regular basis and see if they sit at the station unless they get a call


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## medic417 (Feb 23, 2010)

MS Medic said:


> Let these  Jeffrey Connolly and  Joe Shortsleve (really, he's a "journalist" and thats the best he could come up with) work a 24 or 48 hour shift on a regular basis and see if they sit at the station unless they get a call



Why not?  Have you not ever stayed home for a 24 or 48 hour period before?  Most fire stations have more recreation equipment than most peoples houses so they have plenty to entertain themselves while waiting.  

Don't get me wrong I see no problem with leaving the station but you have to see the tax payers view.   They give us all this money, nice buildings, lots of toys, cable tv, work out equipment, etc and then they see that large piece of equipment that uses 15 gallons of fuel just to turn the motor over ( yes exaggeration but that's how peoples minds work ) carrying several people that are being paid better than most tax payers running personal errands.  That will rub people the wrong way.


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## MS Medic (Feb 23, 2010)

medic417 said:


> Why not?  Have you not ever stayed home for a 24 or 48 hour period before?  Most fire stations have more recreation equipment than most peoples houses so they have plenty to entertain themselves while waiting.



I managed to stay at the station for 24 hours once and it drove me stir crazy. I'm happy when I get to sleep through the night. If you want to trim the fat from local government, there are better ways than hassling some underpaid LEO or FF about using city vechle for personal use.


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## 46Young (Feb 23, 2010)

medic417 said:


> Why not?  Have you not ever stayed home for a 24 or 48 hour period before?  Most fire stations have more recreation equipment than most peoples houses so they have plenty to entertain themselves while waiting.
> 
> Don't get me wrong I see no problem with leaving the station but you have to see the tax payers view.   They give us all this money, nice buildings, lots of toys, cable tv, work out equipment, etc and then they see that large piece of equipment that uses 15 gallons of fuel just to turn the motor over ( yes exaggeration but that's how peoples minds work ) carrying several people that are being paid better than most tax payers running personal errands.  That will rub people the wrong way.



That's where PR , public service, and volunteering for charities and non mandated community service both on and off duty come in. Yeah, they burn a gallon or two going to the store, and their station is really nice, but they do Fill The Boot in the oppressive Labor Day heat every year, Toys for Tots, AHA Heart Walks, along with various other charities, they perform wellness checks on the elderly, visit our homes to check on our smoke/CO detectors and even change the batteries for free, come to our block parties, school, church and other functions, and the kids really love the open house events. They're so nice when we call them to put grandma back to bed at 0300 when she can't get off the floor.

When they're called to our home in the middle of the night for a gas leak, alarm bell, CO check, they're always professional, friendly, and polite. 

If the public holds a favorable opinion of you, silly crap like shopping for dinner won't be an issue.


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## 46Young (Feb 23, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Heck, I'd argue that there's a difference between a mile away in a different city and being 5-10 miles from your station on the edge of your district or in another district in the city. Just because a unit is still in their city doesn't mean that they are in the best position to respond.



This is why I feel that the whole concept of the first due is obsolete, when an AVL is used. The closest unit is recommended. As you're saying, with the first due concept, I could be on the edge of my first due, a block away from the next district. The call could be two blocks away, which is one block inside that other district. The unit that's five or more miles away will be called instead. Similar concept for the unit shopping. If a call goes out when they're shopping, is it a mile or two past the store, or a mile or two back towards the station? Being out at the store could result in being closer to the call. Especially if everyone's in the moving unit, not having to rush to the rig, open the bay, etc.

What about district familiarization? We regularly tour our first due, note building construction, topography, detours, and we also do walkthrough drills for malls, shopping centers, nursing homes, hospitals, apartment complexes, schools and such. We also do Knox Box checks, to make sure that the necessary keys are there. Standard practice. Preplanning and knowing what's in your first due is a necessary, accepted practice. I'm sure that district familiarization and walkthrough preplan drills use more fuel than a trip to the store.


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## MS Medic (Feb 23, 2010)

46Young said:


> Given that we're willing to run into burning buildings to save life and property, I think a trip the store with the apparatus to buy dinner supplies (not five trips to starbucks) isn't asking too much.






46Young said:


> I'm sure you're as sick of that as I'm sick of hearing how EMS and fire should be divorced, and that fire should be downstaffed due to call volume. I chuckle every time I hear terms like firemonkey, hose jockey, and such.



News flash: Most of us have walked into more crack houses at three in the morning w/o LEO or come close to getting hit on the side of the road working a wreck than any FF has run into burning buildings in this age of fire prevention. 

If your sick of hearing those terms then go spend your time on a fire based forum and quit trolling several of ours with the IAFF talking points.


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## medic417 (Feb 23, 2010)

MS Medic said:


> I managed to stay at the station for 24 hours once and it drove me stir crazy. I'm happy when I get to sleep through the night. If you want to trim the fat from local government, there are better ways than hassling some underpaid LEO or FF about using city vechle for personal use.



Again from the tax payers prospective.

UNDER PAID???????????  Like hell.  In this economy I can't get a job yet you get paid to sleep, lift weights, watch TV, and now shop on my tax dollar.  WOW the nerve of you.


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## MS Medic (Feb 23, 2010)

medic417 said:


> Again from the tax payers prospective.
> 
> UNDER PAID???????????  Like hell.  In this economy I can't get a job yet you get paid to sleep, lift weights, watch TV, and now shop on my tax dollar.  WOW the nerve of you.



If they can't find a job they can go into EMS.  Worked for me when I lost my job several years ago and I now have a carreer I love.

But seriously, how many of these joe citizens who want to complain about the cost of the BRT at the grocery store or resturant regularly attend the meetings of their city council or county board of supervisors? How many request copies of the city budget and monitor for fraud, waste, and abuse in other departments of city government?

And as to the so called watch dog group, I find most of them are like Osha. They have to find or manufacture phony problems to justify their existance. What is the national statistic of groccery store buggy pushers getting hit in the parking lot  by someone who "did not see them" but Osha makes them where safety vests now


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## 46Young (Feb 23, 2010)

MS Medic said:


> News flash: Most of us have walked into more crack houses at three in the morning w/o LEO or come close to getting hit on the side of the road working a wreck than any FF has run into burning buildings in this age of fire prevention.
> 
> If your sick of hearing those terms then go spend your time on a fire based forum and quit trolling several of ours with the IAFF talking points.



Really? These are but three that we had in the past couple of weeks. There were more, but these are the ones that were filmed and submitted.

http://www.thebigeyeinfairfax.net/

I'm not sickened by those terms. I actually find them cute and amusing, like that's the best anyone can do in poking fun at the FD. Corny. Often I hear about how EMS should seperate from fire, and that fire should be downstaffed. If that were to happen (which it won't otherwise I would have stayed single role EMS and knocked out an RN or RRT degree) I would be unemployed. If forum members are basically advocating that my family and I end up on the unemployment line, then I have no problem giving a little bit of that "love" back their way. Like when I say that I play for the winning team, make serious bank and such. That kind of stuff hopefully irritates one as much as wishing someone unemployed. I don't boast about such things in real life, but I like to break chops here when I'm getting mine broken in kind. 

I also don't believe in FD takeovers of EMS, except in the case of gross mismanagement of the existing service. But, if the general attitude is that my job should be dissolved, then I don't feel so bad when another FD absorbs EMS. When I hear things like "All EMS should be seperate from fire" and "fire doesn't run as many calls as, or generate revenue like EMS, so they should be downstaffed to reflect call volume", that's actually the reverse of a FD absorbing EMS. You have one side that wants both services merged, sometimes displacing workers (some keep medics single role, many do not). You have the other side who wants to split the operation, and downstaff fire, also costing jobs. Who's right? It's a case by case basis, dependent on the real reasons why the FD took over EMS, and how they're running it. Depts in my region have been combined since they started hiring paid personnel for the first time.

I've went into many a shady residence, dealt with quite a few junkies, and have been by myself (and my partner) working many an MVA with a more than a few close calls. I did NYC EMS, I'm no stranger to that. Running into a burning building that could collapse at any time, or flash on you, is quite a bit different than beating back a crackhead or braving the highway. And I wasn't implying that EMS isn't important and at times dangerous, it was the FF's specifically that were under scrutiny, so I used the fact that we run into burning buildings to say "cut us some slack, and pick some more important battles". Taking an apparatus to the store isn't a big deal, and it's not breaking the bank.

I like FH.com. I go there from time to time. Contacts there helped me with the hiring process. When I first joined this forum, I wanted to shoot the bull with others that do EMS. Yes, I am also a paramedic, same as before I went fire. So it isn't "your" forum, but rather it's"our" forum. I quickly found out that there were a bunch of FD haters, envious or whatever, like I said seeking to put me out of work. That got me a little hot, so I go back at the mutts now and then. I was also taken aback by the education nazis. I, like many others were told that we're ignorant, unintelligent, piss poor providers for not having a degree. So I went back with situations where the individual would be better off financially in going a quicker route, especially if they can't afford to be in school for three or four years.

For crying out loud, one of my first threads was asking for tips and tricks on the ALS level to help us with the job. I posted a simple shortcut for dopamine math. I was attacked by the education nazis about why we shouldn't use shortcuts, don't be lazy, do it the traditional way, blah blah blah. I should have expected as much. In each of my EMS jobs, I noticed plenty of attitudes, posturing, backstabbing, throwing each other under the bus, general frustration and disgruntlement. Although each of things will go on to some extent at any employer, it is much, much less evident where I am now.


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## 46Young (Feb 23, 2010)

medic417 said:


> Again from the tax payers prospective.
> 
> UNDER PAID???????????  Like hell.  In this economy I can't get a job yet you get paid to sleep, lift weights, watch TV, and now shop on my tax dollar.  WOW the nerve of you.



I know you're playing Devil's advocate. I would turn around (off duty, away from work and out of uniform) and point out that it wasn't me who tried getting rich flipping houses, creating or purchasing grandiose, exotic mortgage products, overextending myself on credit to have all the best toys and cars, and I'm also not the one who voted in politicians that continue to enable all of these entitlement programs. I'm also not the one who pulled all my money out of the stock market, intensifying the drop, when I should have been actually buying more shares (a steep drop in the market is like getting thos fund shares at a deep discount), thus forcing many that were soon to retire to hold on to their jobs for another 10 years or so. How about all the money the illegals make here tax free and then send back to their countries? how about each and every person that works off the books, even odd jobs, and doesn't pay taxes? I'm sure bartenders and servers keep most of what they make. How about always giving aid to foreign countries when we get little to no help on our own soil?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5Ru...5534C560&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=37

Assign blame where blame is due and don't project your problems onto me. I have a zero balance on my two cards, since I pay them off every month, just like all my other bills. I also eat out and support my local economy in general.


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## MS Medic (Feb 23, 2010)

:nosoupfortroll:

Need I say more about this thread


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## Lifeguards For Life (Feb 23, 2010)

*My favorite informative "do not feed the troll" sign*



MS Medic said:


> :nosoupfortroll:
> 
> Need I say more about this thread


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## medic417 (Feb 23, 2010)

That's mean calling 46 a troll.  Just because you don't agree with his IAFF crap doesn't mean he shouldn't be allowed to throw his 2 cents into the discussion.


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## MS Medic (Feb 23, 2010)

The problem is not my disagreement with him. The problem is that I see him on both of the ems forums I am currently on and he constantly hijacks threads and tries to turn them into discussions about why we should all work for fire based EMS. Yet, I have never found a ligetimate response when the logistal problems of fire based EMS are discussed. It constantly turns into spewing retoric.


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## medic417 (Feb 23, 2010)

MS Medic said:


> The problem is not my disagreement with him. The problem is that I see him on both of the ems forums I am currently on and he constantly hijacks threads and tries to turn them into discussions about why we should all work for fire based EMS. Yet, I have never found a ligetimate response when the logistal problems of fire based EMS are discussed. It constantly turns into spewing retoric.



And while I agree he does always post IAFF propaganda, he is right that those of us that know for a fact that fire based is not the best way always spout our anti fire propaganda, so where is the difference?


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## MS Medic (Feb 23, 2010)

medic417 said:


> And while I agree he does always post IAFF propaganda



Hence the appropriate aplication of the term troll. Would it be acceptable for you to go to a fire service based forum and constantly bash fire based EMS and hijack their threads about fire service issues?


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## medic417 (Feb 23, 2010)

MS Medic said:


> Hence the appropriate aplication of the term troll. Would it be acceptable for you to go to a fire service based forum and constantly bash fire based EMS and hijack their threads about fire service issues?



But sadly fire and EMS are intertwined thus the reason that each person should be able to express their opinions based on their experience.  

If we banned the fire then we would have to ban the volunteers.  Then we would have to ban the rural paid.  Then?


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## MS Medic (Feb 23, 2010)

medic417 said:


> But sadly fire and EMS are intertwined thus the reason that each person should be able to express their opinions based on their experience.
> 
> If we banned the fire then we would have to ban the volunteers.  Then we would have to ban the rural paid.  Then?



That is irrelevent to the issue of trolling. Once again, would it be appropriate for us to go to a fire service based forum and bash fire based EMS and hihjack their threads?


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## medic417 (Feb 23, 2010)

MS Medic said:


> That is irrelevent to the issue of trolling. Once again, would it be appropriate for us to go to a fire service based forum and bash fire based EMS and hihjack their threads?



If they are discussing an EMS subject we should have the right to go and discuss our view on the subject.  

If we ban people from sharing their views where do we draw the line?  I guess as a Paramedic I would be banned as this is EMTlife not Paramediclife.


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## MS Medic (Feb 23, 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MS Medic  
The problem is not my disagreement with him. The problem is that I see him on both of the ems forums I am currently on and he constantly hijacks threads and tries to turn them into discussions about why we should all work for fire based EMS. Yet, I have never found a ligetimate response when the logistal problems of fire based EMS are discussed. It constantly turns into spewing retoric. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by medic417
And while I agree he does always post IAFF propaganda, he is right that those of us that know for a fact that fire based is not the best way always spout our anti fire propaganda, so where is the difference? 


Once again this is a issue of trolling with IAFF "propaganda" as you put it, not an honest and genuine discussion of issues.


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## medic417 (Feb 23, 2010)

MS Medic said:


> Once again this is a issue of trolling with IAFF "propaganda" as you put it, not an honest and genuine discussion of issues.



So because we feel a certain way and state our opinions its not propaganda?


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## MS Medic (Feb 23, 2010)

Congrats, you suckered me in. So with that I will rinse and repeat.

:nosoupfortroll:

Need I say more about this thread.


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## medic417 (Feb 23, 2010)

ms medic said:


> congrats, you suckered me in. So with that i will rinse and repeat.



lol.


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## PotatoMedic (Feb 23, 2010)

Just before this thread goes completely down hill.  Are we at an agreement that this reporter is crying wolf for no reason at all?


(and on a note in the current direction of this thread.)

I will always be in favor of a fire based EMS system if it is or is like the one I grew up in and work for now (King County, Washington).


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## medic417 (Feb 23, 2010)

FireWA1 said:


> Just before this thread goes completely down hill.  Are we at an agreement that this reporter is crying wolf for no reason at all?



No, because he makes some valid points.  Plus the more I consider the devils advocate statements I made I think I see more validity to it.  Why should the tax payers pay for me to go get food when I could have brought food to work with me?


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## MS Medic (Feb 23, 2010)

FireWA1 said:


> Just before this thread goes completely down hill.  Are we at an agreement that this reporter is crying wolf for no reason at all?
> 
> 
> (and on a note in the current direction of this thread.)
> ...



We are of mixed opinion because I am siding with the fire dept on this issue.


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## EMSLaw (Feb 23, 2010)

medic417 said:


> No, because he makes some valid points.  Plus the more I consider the devils advocate statements I made I think I see more validity to it.  Why should the tax payers pay for me to go get food when I could have brought food to work with me?



The fact that firefighters go out to get groceries surprises anyone?  I'm pretty sure that every firefighter movie has a grocery store scene. 

If the issue is being out of their district, I agree with those who said that I'd rather they be out of their district and close to quarters, rather than in their district and far away.  

My town is over 100 square miles.  And surprisingly, other than a huge number of Chinese and Pizza joints, there isn't much to eat at night.  If there are multiple crews on, nobody objects to going two minutes over the town line to get food to bring back.  If a call drops, the other crew can cover (while the rig on the food run heads directly back to town in the event of a second call), or you're actually closer to the most populated part of town than you would be in quarters.

I think this is making a mountain out of a molehill.  I don't begrudge the FFs dinner, and it's safer for all concerned if they stay together, which means using their apparatus to travel to the store.


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## medic417 (Feb 23, 2010)

EMSLaw said:


> The fact that firefighters go out to get groceries surprises anyone?  I'm pretty sure that every firefighter movie has a grocery store scene.
> 
> If the issue is being out of their district, I agree with those who said that I'd rather they be out of their district and close to quarters, rather than in their district and far away.
> 
> ...



Why can't they bring food with them to work and not waste any tax payer money?  They are not being denied the right to eat but being accused of abusing tax payers.  Perhaps we need to stop leaving the station unless it is work related.


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## TripsTer (Feb 23, 2010)

medic417 said:


> No, because he makes some valid points.  Plus the more I consider the devils advocate statements I made I think I see more validity to it.  Why should the tax payers pay for me to go get food when I could have brought food to work with me?



What if you forgot, what if there's no more leftovers in the fridge, what if your wife didn't make you anything last night, what if you forgot to go to the store and buy groceries for the fridge?

Is our economy in such a poor state that our strategy to save money is to stop the fire departments from taking their apparatus to the local store so they may get something to eat?

If you want to stop excessive governmental spending, then go to D.C. I know one particular official that likes to spend nearly $50k on week-long vacations.


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## medic417 (Feb 23, 2010)

TripsTer said:


> What if you forgot, what if there's no more leftovers in the fridge, what if your wife didn't make you anything last night, what if you forgot to go to the store and buy groceries for the fridge?
> 
> Is our economy in such a poor state that our strategy to save money is to stop the fire departments from taking their apparatus to the local store so they may get something to eat?
> 
> If you want to stop excessive governmental spending, then go to D.C. I know one particular official that likes to spend nearly $50k on week-long vacations.



If a fire fighter is so ignorant as not being able to plan what to take to work to eat he is to stupid to be using such dangerous equipment and should immediately be fired and not allowed to breed.  

What part of pre planning can fire fighters not get?  Plan meals in advance and bring the groceries to the station.  Heck we often agree what we want and who will bring what.  Plus you can always keep some emergency supplies in the locker so you will not starve.


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## PotatoMedic (Feb 23, 2010)

medic417 said:


> Why can't they bring food with them to work and not waste any tax payer money?  They are not being denied the right to eat but being accused of abusing tax payers.  Perhaps we need to stop leaving the station unless it is work related.



Think of it this way.  they pay taxes too... so they are just using their tax money to pay for the gas.  You pay for everything else.   (and they use their money to buy groceries).

The only meal we go to the grocery store for is dinner.  Everything else is a free for all.


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## medic417 (Feb 23, 2010)

FireWA1 said:


> Think of it this way.  they pay taxes too... so they are just using their tax money to pay for the gas.  You pay for everything else.   (and they use their money to buy groceries).
> 
> The only meal we go to the grocery store for is dinner.  Everything else is a free for all.



But again why do they have to go get food?  Why can they not plan it out and bring the stuff with them?  Heck only 24 hours at the station is not enough to claim they are going crazy and just need to get out.  

There are people that work for a whole lot less money and are not allowed to leave their job sites for meals.  They have to clock out and if they did not bring food they go hungry.  Why are fire fighters any better?


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## PotatoMedic (Feb 23, 2010)

medic417 said:


> But again why do they have to go get food?  Why can they not plan it out and bring the stuff with them?  Heck only 24 hours at the station is not enough to claim they are going crazy and just need to get out.
> 
> There are people that work for a whole lot less money and are not allowed to leave their job sites for meals.  They have to clock out and if they did not bring food they go hungry.  Why are fire fighters any better?



I know of two departments in my area that work (or worked) 48 hour shifts. (I think they might have changed it to 24's to help with stress).  Ill admit I won't go crazy if I don't leave the station but it really does get boring sitting around in the afternoon if all you have done all day is sit around a do paperwork.  Going to the store is a nice mental brain break.  Plus we do a lot of community outreach then.  Hand out a hat if a little kid wants one.  Heck a hand full of time we have kids asking for a tour of the truck so one guy stays behind and shows the truck off while everyone else gets dinner.

So yes we could sit down and decide what we want to eat the shift before and bring all the food then.  But I feel the community outreach is worth it.


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## medic417 (Feb 23, 2010)

FireWA1 said:


> I know of two departments in my area that work (or worked) 48 hour shifts. (I think they might have changed it to 24's to help with stress).  Ill admit I won't go crazy if I don't leave the station but it really does get boring sitting around in the afternoon if all you have done all day is sit around a do paperwork.  Going to the store is a nice mental brain break.  Plus we do a lot of community outreach then.  Hand out a hat if a little kid wants one.  Heck a hand full of time we have kids asking for a tour of the truck so one guy stays behind and shows the truck off while everyone else gets dinner.
> 
> So yes we could sit down and decide what we want to eat the shift before and bring all the food then.  But I feel the community outreach is worth it.



Community PR can be scheduled at schools not the random meeting in a parking lot.  Scheduled is much more efficient.


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## PotatoMedic (Feb 23, 2010)

It is also very structured and focused towards the kids.  The spontaneous parking lot events allow the parents to be involved as well.  They can ask questions and interact as well.  I feel it can be more effective to the one or two families that are involved than the large group events.

Can't forget about the random people showing up to the station asking for a tour.


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## TripsTer (Feb 23, 2010)

medic417 said:


> If a fire fighter is so ignorant as not being able to plan what to take to work to eat he is to stupid to be using such dangerous equipment and should immediately be fired and not allowed to breed.
> 
> What part of pre planning can fire fighters not get?  Plan meals in advance and bring the groceries to the station.  Heck we often agree what we want and who will bring what.  Plus you can always keep some emergency supplies in the locker so you will not starve.



So someone who is bold enough to propose that people should lose their jobs and not be allowed to reproduce because they possibly cannot remember something, obviously has not ever forgotten anything in their lifetime and must be a god. 

Okay, let's fire all those guys then. Let's fire everyone who is prone to possibly forget their lunch. We'll make a ridiculously hard memory test in the CSE and if they can't pass it, they can't become firemen.

See how many firemen you have left after that, and how many make it past that CSE.

My house likes to cook, and we actually take turns each week where the person assigned goes to get groceries before the shift and brings it when they come in.

So say it's the rookie's week and he forgets, or the guy assigned calls in sick, and there doesn't happen to be anything else in the fridge at the station. I like the fact that we can still go out to get something from the store, very rarely do we need to do that but I like to know that's an option. 

And say you somehow get your local FD to stop going to the grocery store. Exactly how much are you looking to get back into your pocket?


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## Medic744 (Feb 23, 2010)

We work in a small town and the local FF and VFD both duty crews will take an apparatus into town to eat, usually on a fuel run anyway.  They are lucky enough to also live in district for the most part.  We on the other do not live nearby and regularly take the unit to the grocery store to get food or out to eat.  Unfortunately for us the nearest grocery store is out of our territory.  We have it in our SOPs that we are allowed to make these runs, also we are allowed to get food from nearby eateries out of district as long as we get it to go.  Our town is VERY VERY limited on food choices.  As for taking food with us to the station, it is an option but for us alot of the crew is coming from another job and then going to another job so carrying 3-4 days of food with you is not practical.  I dont find anything wrong with making sure Im fueled to do my job.


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## DrParasite (Feb 23, 2010)

medic417 said:


> But again why do they have to go get food?  Why can they not plan it out and bring the stuff with them?  Heck only 24 hours at the station is not enough to claim they are going crazy and just need to get out.
> 
> There are people that work for a whole lot less money and are not allowed to leave their job sites for meals.  They have to clock out and if they did not bring food they go hungry.  Why are fire fighters any better?



I believe I stated just this point about 4 pages ago.....

That all being said, I don't care what they do, and no one here has any right to say otherwise.  If a volunteer FD somewhere wants to take a truck to get food, i don't care.  if paid FD somewhere wants to have every truck to the store, i still don't care.

The only people who has a say is the local tax payers.  meaning, only a person from Boston's (or wherever this department is located) opinion matters.  it's their money, not mine.  I don't care if fairfax Va lets their fire trucks get food, unless I am in fairfax Va (and if I am, then i have every right to complain, because it is the fuel my tax dollars pay for).

It's a local issue that WE are making a bigger issue than it needs to be.  Let the local taxpayers tell the reporter that they don't care if the FD shops while on duty.  As long as they are available to respond to alarms in their response area...


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## medic417 (Feb 23, 2010)

TripsTer said:


> So someone who is bold enough to propose that people should lose their jobs and not be allowed to reproduce because they possibly cannot remember something, obviously has not ever forgotten anything in their lifetime and must be a god.
> 
> Okay, let's fire all those guys then. Let's fire everyone who is prone to possibly forget their lunch. We'll make a ridiculously hard memory test in the CSE and if they can't pass it, they can't become firemen.
> 
> ...



Again they can bring the food to cook together.  Sorry no need to shop while on duty.  

Again being prepared for the just in case ( forgetting, getting called in, having to pull extra shift, etc) by keeping some items in your locker or your car.  Might not be the steak you want but you don't go hungry and are not wasting tax payer money.


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## 46Young (Feb 23, 2010)

medic417 said:


> If a fire fighter is so ignorant as not being able to plan what to take to work to eat he is to stupid to be using such dangerous equipment and should immediately be fired and not allowed to breed.
> 
> What part of pre planning can fire fighters not get?  Plan meals in advance and bring the groceries to the station.  Heck we often agree what we want and who will bring what.  Plus you can always keep some emergency supplies in the locker so you will not starve.



It's difficult to preplan meals here, as the crew changes from day to day. To help lower OT, we detail pad personnel (extra FF, officer, sometimes two people) to other stations to fill vacancies. This is to cover sick personnel, paid time off, injury leave, and such. This is an almost daily occurence, especially during the summer. We also have OT personnel coming through on occasion. Each day could see three or four different people than the last. It's tough to plan meals when you don't know who's eating, and if anyone has any food allergies/religious considerations to take into account. You buy for ten, and only six are eating. You buy for five, and nine want in. On the same token, you could preplan the groceries, come to work, and then be detailed to another station yourself. Now you're out dinner. 

If I'm doing PM OT at a station, I'll typically call in the morning so they know to buy enough for an additional person.

Me personally, I typically bring enough food for the whole day in case we get busy and dinner doesn't happen. It's also difficult to bring food at times as you can be held for an additional 12 hours, and be out of food. Or going between your scheduled shift to your side job, OT, or whatever. If I come in from my side job at 2200-2300 hours, and I have to be up at 0430, I'm not going to cook for the next day. Maybe I don't like cold cuts, and I can't pack eight PB&J sandwiches for the day. That's disgusting. I may also be out of supplies at home if I've been working for a few days straight. The supermarkets don't stay open 24 hours here. We also collect for the kitty and coffee fund. This is for PB, jelly, spices, oils, snacks like granola bars, country crock and such. That requires a trip to Costco, of course. 

If I have someone cooking dinner while I'm running my tail off, I'm definitely appreciative. Unless it's steak. It tastes like crap when it's reheated.


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## Medic744 (Feb 23, 2010)

Im going to go out on a limb and say that the taxpayers dollars that they crews are "wasting" on fuel are a drop in the bucket compared to some of the junk that the government wastes money on.  Also there are more than enough scientific studies out there that show a significant decrease in cognigtive ability during times of hunger.  I would rather fork over the 3 bucks for a gallon of diesel than have somebody get hurt or killed because my responding FF cant think straight because they are starving (extreme example).  And I agree that if you have never forgotten anything in your life then you are an amazing abnormality.  As for people clocking in and out for meals at other jobs that is understandable.  This is not like any other job.  There are only a handful of jobs that require you to be aways from home for 24 hrs and not be able to take off when you get hungry.  Even when you get ill or have a family emergency you have to find someone to take your place before leaving.  They werent at a bar or strip club getting free steaks, they were grabbing food and hygeine products to get through a shift.  And I can bet had they received a call, everything would have been left right there for them to go do their job.


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## 46Young (Feb 23, 2010)

Medic744 said:


> Im going to go out on a limb and say that the taxpayers dollars that they crews are "wasting" on fuel are a drop in the bucket compared to some of the junk that the government wastes money on.  Also there are more than enough scientific studies out there that show a significant decrease in cognigtive ability during times of hunger.  I would rather fork over the 3 bucks for a gallon of diesel than have somebody get hurt or killed because my responding FF cant think straight because they are starving (extreme example).  And I agree that if you have never forgotten anything in your life then you are an amazing abnormality.  As for people clocking in and out for meals at other jobs that is understandable.  This is not like any other job.  There are only a handful of jobs that require you to be aways from home for 24 hrs and not be able to take off when you get hungry.  Even when you get ill or have a family emergency you have to find someone to take your place before leaving.  They werent at a bar or strip club getting free steaks, they were grabbing food and hygeine products to get through a shift.  And I can bet had they received a call, everything would have been left right there for them to go do their job.



Bingo. It's mere pennies when measured against the entire budget. The lion's share of the budget goes to payroll, and then apparatus/equipment. Fuel is way down the list. Like I said in an earlier post, the negligible amount of fuel used for a grocery run is nothing compared to govt waste, such as the various entitlement programs, questionable foreign aid, special interest projects and such. 

How much will you actually save by restricting units from leaving the station for shopping? I'm willing to bet that it will have little noticeable impact on the local govt's budget. A gallon of diesel to make a trip at $3, just to make up a number, times one trip per firehouse (we have 37), is only around $111. That's maybe one non essential civillian job, really not even that, where a reduction in force may call for one hundred to two hundred positions before sticker taxes, increase in property value tax per $100, shortened workweek, strict climate control in gov't buildings, furloughs and such are implemented. Like I said, the fuel savings are negligable at best. If your district has only five or ten stations, your saving like 20-30 bucks a day. Not exactly pushing the local gov't into the fiscal abyss.

So, it's hardly worth it to eliminate that particular job perk for a negligable benefit. In fact, if the local gov't and/or EMS agency were to educate the community and discourage even one 911 call per every several stations (a trip to the hospital can easily exceed several round trips to the supermarket, unless the ED is around the corner), that would save way more than the cost of fuel for shopping. If the dept initiates or suggest this, they're being proactive, and won't be nagged by petty issues like going to the store on duty.


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## JPINFV (Feb 23, 2010)

Here's the thing. When governments are trying to cut costs to break even, I want them to go after every excess, including the 'petty' low hanging fruit. It's like saying just because a cashier had $20,000 in sales, it's ok to take a $20 off the top. After all, who cares about 0.1%. It's so small when compared to the rest of the drawer. Yea, it's small. Especially when some of the shopping is done after a call. However if you can cut costs while providing an appropriate alternative, why not?


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## mct601 (Feb 24, 2010)

46Young said:


> Bingo. It's mere pennies when measured against the entire budget. The lion's share of the budget goes to payroll, and then apparatus/equipment. Fuel is way down the list. Like I said in an earlier post, the negligible amount of fuel used for a grocery run is nothing compared to govt waste, such as the various entitlement programs, questionable foreign aid, special interest projects and such.
> 
> How much will you actually save by restricting units from leaving the station for shopping? I'm willing to bet that it will have little noticeable impact on the local govt's budget. A gallon of diesel to make a trip at $3, just to make up a number, times one trip per firehouse (we have 37), is only around $111. That's maybe one non essential civillian job, really not even that, where a reduction in force may call for one hundred to two hundred positions before sticker taxes, increase in property value tax per $100, shortened workweek, strict climate control in gov't buildings, furloughs and such are implemented. Like I said, the fuel savings are negligable at best. If your district has only five or ten stations, your saving like 20-30 bucks a day. Not exactly pushing the local gov't into the fiscal abyss.
> 
> So, it's hardly worth it to eliminate that particular job perk for a negligable benefit. In fact, if the local gov't and/or EMS agency were to educate the community and discourage even one 911 call per every several stations (a trip to the hospital can easily exceed several round trips to the supermarket, unless the ED is around the corner), that would save way more than the cost of fuel for shopping. If the dept initiates or suggest this, they're being proactive, and won't be nagged by petty issues like going to the store on duty.




I see nothing wrong with a trip being made to the store to get supplies and food. FF doesn't do it here, but the ambulances definitely do.  They're still on the clock and if toned they have to respond to a call. Whats the difference in an engine or ambulance going to a shopping center ONCE a day, or fast food 3-4 times?  The guys have to eat either way. and who honestly has the time to get up and plan meals pre-shift (when most shifts start around here at 6 or 7).  People need to get their panties out of a wad and find something else to complain about.


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## medic417 (Feb 24, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Here's the thing. When governments are trying to cut costs to break even, I want them to go after every excess, including the 'petty' low hanging fruit. It's like saying just because a cashier had $20,000 in sales, it's ok to take a $20 off the top. After all, who cares about 0.1%. It's so small when compared to the rest of the drawer. Yea, it's small. Especially when some of the shopping is done after a call. However if you can cut costs while providing an appropriate alternative, why not?



Excellent analogy!!!!!   And along with this again is about public perception more than reality.  The public sees this and says what a waste of my tax dollars.  Yes the fire dept has much larger wastes but they are not seen daily so people do not complain about them.  So if the fire department and the government want to keep being able to have the big tax wasters they have to sooth the public by eliminating the obvious tax waste even when it really does not save much.  


Oh and to the poster that said who has time to get up early and plan, you plan before the end of previous shift and either have one person bring everything or each person bring something, either way you have food brought to feed the entire crew.


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## ollie (Feb 24, 2010)

put some civilians in there (FFS) shoes n i think they will stop this nonsence


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## medic417 (Feb 24, 2010)

ollie said:


> put some civilians in there (FFS) shoes n i think they will stop this nonsence



Thats right they will stop the waste as they will appreciate how good they have it.


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