# Lightbars in personal vehicles?



## Raf (Jul 8, 2006)

I have an EMT-B friend up in Maine and his employer gave him permission to have a strobe in the front of his personal vehicle so he can respond on his own. Anyone else have this? Anyone have a full lightbar or siren?

I guess you have to live in a pretty rural area to have that priviledge?


----------



## disassociative (Jul 8, 2006)

I live in the country; ALL of our volunteer responders have lights and sirens on their vehicles. There are even a couple of medics that carry FULL ACLS kit in their vehicles. You are issued a vehicle tag that either reads, "Emergency" or "FireFighter" depending on your ranking in EMS and/or facility.


I have a full Trunk Scanner in my Sunfire along with strobes, siren, touch screen
satellite GPS, and wifi.

We go all out here in the Kuntry.


----------



## Stevo (Jul 8, 2006)

screw that

your insurance agency voids any bad news you may get into the moment they learn about a red light permit, and your town will shun/flog/turn their back on you as well

just drive like the rest of t he world's a**holes, then your covered...

~S~


----------



## disassociative (Jul 8, 2006)

Who said anything abt driving fast or unsafe? They even tell you to do the 
speed limit in EVO Class. Almost 100% of the volunteers here have response vehicles with Jump Kits on board, and I haven't heard of one of them having any problem with their insurance company whatsoever.

Why on Earth would the town turn their back on you? People respect EMS here.
Why wouldn't they?


----------



## Stevo (Jul 8, 2006)

> Who said anything abt driving fast or unsafe?



your insurance company will *disassociative*. and when it comes down to a $$$ , so will your municipality, and everyone short of your dog

trust me on this 

~S~


----------



## disassociative (Jul 8, 2006)

My insurance company(Grange Mutual Casualty Company) knows that I have a light. The guy that handles my bill is a first responder.


----------



## Stevo (Jul 8, 2006)

disassociative, if your insurance man is informed, aware, and made provisions for your redlight permit , you are indeed in the minority

may i suggest you educate your mates


~S~


----------



## disassociative (Jul 8, 2006)

Then; it's good to be loved--as are my friends from: TN Farmers Casualty, Allstate, and the Ins companies that the other 300+ responders are with.


----------



## Stevo (Jul 8, 2006)

yes disassociative, we are all our brothers keeper in ems

however, that sentiment doesn't always follow suit with the 'good hands' people

~S~


----------



## disassociative (Jul 8, 2006)

I take it you speak from personal experience.


----------



## emtd29 (Jul 8, 2006)

Wanna know what's in/on  my car???


NOTHING. 

My dept forbids lightbars. however you can have 1 forward facing light.within the vehicle.

Considering the fact that the company that I belong to operates by the " duty shift " method, I'm already at the station house when the call comes over anyway, so the blue light isn't worth it.


----------



## EMT2498 (Jul 8, 2006)

My department allows either interior lights, or external lights.  I have all interior LED's.  With the exception of the two I have in my grill.  I have the two in my grill, one deck light mounted in front of my rear view mirror, and two in my rear window.  I am going to buy two more for my side windows this week so I'll have 360 coverage.

I'll take a pic. soon, its easier then describing .


----------



## Jon (Jul 8, 2006)

I've got an amber rotator in my trunk, that I got as a blue light and swapped domes... I occasionally use it at work for replacement vehicles.

I don't currently use any lights in/on my vehicle - I'm not really active with my Fire Co right now (gotta love politics) and my Ambulance Co uses Duty Shifts and forbids blue lights.


----------



## disassociative (Jul 8, 2006)

Rules are Red lights only here. ANY vehicle with a blue light must have a Gov plate or consent from the chief of police.


----------



## MMiz (Jul 9, 2006)

In Michigan it's common for volunteer firefighters/EMS to have a full red lightbar up top.  100% of the people I know that have them are the farthest thing from a whacker, and the company's whackers don't have any lights.  It's weird.

If I worked for a volunteer department I can't see myself having a light.  Most insurance companies aren't too fond of the lights, and I'm a bit too fond of my insurance.

It's all about personal taste though.  I think the classy thing to do is all interior LEDs with maybe a couple grill lights.  I can't see that in my future either.  EMS and teaching don't pay all that great,


----------



## disassociative (Jul 9, 2006)

Yeah; I keep the windshield lights with the Stickeys; I just put them under my Sirius--and boom ready for action. I don't think I would go so far as to actually have a light bar on top of the car, lol.

I am however considering lights for the grill as well as:

http://galls.com/style.html?assort=general_catalog&style=DL165&cat=2703

but here; if you have a truck AND YOU WANT TO GO ALL OUT WHACKER:

http://www.demers-ambulances.com/index.php?sectionId=191&productId=53


----------



## emtbuff (Jul 9, 2006)

I have recently put wigwags in my car. As ambulance personal here we can only have white.  I will say there were a good handful that put them in their vehicle.  We had to get permits from the director and had to live a mile away from the station which now isn't hard to do.  Our Fire Department is allowed to use Blue lights and if there is a fire you watch out for all the blue lights to come flying through.  Kinda like the blue light express.  We have to go through some minor training and are to follow the rules of the road way, I know it has been a challenge for a handful of them to do that.  We have put articals in the paper asking for the right of way to be given to us and if the community views a person using their light in appropreately they can turn us in and we can have the privilage taken away.  They are mainly for the crappy calls and aren't to be used on transfers.


----------



## rescuecpt (Jul 9, 2006)

Stevo said:
			
		

> your insurance company will *disassociative*. and when it comes down to a $$$ , so will your municipality, and everyone short of your dog
> 
> trust me on this
> 
> ~S~



Actually, no.  I got involved in an accident going to the scene with my lights on, and the department paid my deductible, and my insurance company covered the accident.  I was also told the department would cover the whole thing if my insurance didn't.


----------



## ResTech (Jul 9, 2006)

In Pennsylvania laws are pretty clear about warning lights on personal vehicles... volunteer fire/ems personnel can have blue lights which must be visible 360 degrees (ie. no dash lights) although many run dashlights.. itz not really enforced. 

And fire officers (chief, DC, and AC) and EMS officers (chief and DC) can run red lights and siren. I had my red strobe bar stolen and my ins co. covered the replacement cost and VFIS (my depts ins carrier) paid the deductible since it was magnetic mount and the thief slid it across my roof making my roof need a new paint job.


----------



## FFEMT1764 (Jul 9, 2006)

I have lights on both of my vehicles, interior and exterior to meet SC's law concerning 360 degree visibility from the HIGHEST point of the vehicle, so hence a light on the roof is the law...its not enforced though unless you are involved in an accident...which brings me to point number two, in SC if you are a Vol FF/EMS worker your insurance company must:1- cover your vehicle lights or no lights as long as you pay the premium on time, 2- they can not charge you some outlandish rate for insurance, i.e. you pay the same premium as jonq public would with similar coverage amounts andf driving history.  It is optional as to your department letting you use such lights...I get to use mine alot as when I am off my 48hrs I am the only FF in the district that can run both our engines with their eyes closed, and I am the only person around in the day usually too that is able to run medical calls.


----------



## Raf (Jul 10, 2006)

In massachusetts only police are allowed to have blue. Other firstresponders like EMS and FF's can use almost any other color.


----------



## disassociative (Jul 10, 2006)

That's so strange to me; I guess we are the oddity though. None of our emergency services other than Law Enforcement are allowed to use blue
lights.

All of our vehicles, ambulances, firetrucks, response vehicles use Red Lights.


Do any of your states require an "Emergency", "FireFighter", or "Govt Service"
tag to be on the vehicle to use a lightbar?


----------



## Ridryder911 (Jul 10, 2006)

Have lights or star of life on you p.o.v =whacker.. period. You don't see trauma surgeons with lights on their Lexus or Mercedes.. 

R/r 911


----------



## disassociative (Jul 10, 2006)

Trauma surgeons might not, but I think that anyone working with a Volunteer Fire Dept should.


----------



## Ridryder911 (Jul 10, 2006)

Why?.. How can one justify it if one obeys the speed limit, and all the driving laws, and does not produce a hazard to themselves or others? This will save ...time?.. There has been numerous studies, that has shown it has not saved significant time, especially in a metro area. However, it does increase risk to others and to themselves. 

Generally, lightbars, decals are considered to be very much an unprofessional site. Again, in comparison, does one think that their response would be more valuable than the surgeons?... As well, I don't see caduceus's and surgeon decals on their vehicle...

Fortunately, my state does not allow volunteer(s) to have or represent emergency vehicle status. There are more and more increasing incidences of emergency vehicles, injuring and killing people daily. Increasing risks need to be weighed heavily...

R/r 911


----------



## disassociative (Jul 10, 2006)

I think even with a light you should obey the speed limit. My justification is that
when someone sees a siren coming; they are inclined to pull over to the side and let the vehicle pass.

Please note that I am speaking mainly of First Responders in rural areas.

Even ambulance driver's are told to obey the speed limits. According to the dept of transportation
90% of patients survive with an arrival time under 1 hr. I do not agree with unsafe driving in any manner, be it speeding, running redlights, etc..


----------



## Jon (Jul 10, 2006)

On my "old" car - I had a 3" PA EMT decal, a 3" 9/11 memorial decal on my back windshield, a Squad front license plate, and a "EMS" PA state license plate. I'm not sure if I'll put 1 or 2 of the decals on my new car.

Blue Lights (Courtesy lights in PA) are good for when you respond direct and have to "park" your vehicle somewhere it shouldn't be "parked" - like the side of a highway, or on the side of the road.... I know of several folks who don't use the lights to respond, but turn them on onscene.

I'm not a big fan of speeding with a blue light.. the general consensus around here is that you can get away with more by just "driving like an a**hole" than you can with lights... because if you use lights, someone is going to call your chief to complain about that "maniac fireman"


----------



## FFEMT1764 (Jul 11, 2006)

Ridryder911 said:
			
		

> Why?.. How can one justify it if one obeys the speed limit, and all the driving laws, and does not produce a hazard to themselves or others? This will save ...time?..


 
I certainly hope you dont live in an area that is covered by an all volunteer fire dept...as your house WILL burn ot the ground, possibly with YOU in it if you dont allow your local volly FF to run his red lights and siren to the FD to get that all important piece of firefighting equipment we all refer to as the BRT...I am fully in favor a vollies having and using red lights to go get the BRT, and as warranted to go directly to the fire...but hey I also dont want my home to burn to the ground.

As a side note, here in SC if you meet the requirements of Title 12 (360 degree warning and 100 watts siren at 10 feet)while in your POV you are classisfied as an emergency vehicle and are allowed to exceed the speed limit by up to 15 MPH over hte posted limit and, using due regard for safety of everyone, disregard traffic control devices just as if you were in the ambulance, BRT, or police car.


----------



## Ridryder911 (Jul 11, 2006)

Actually I do live in a volunteer area. I was even a Fire Chief for over 10 years at a local F.D. As a Chief I helped propose legislation to prevent yahoo's from running hot in p.o.v's. After several months of research and studies, it has been proven there was not any difference in response times, if one was actually driving safely and obeying laws. 

Look at the statistics of emergency vehicle crashes, and these are usually large vehicle with proper markings, appropriate siren, and lighted devices and hopefully with trained EVOC drivers. Sorry, if one firefighter or an innocent citizen gets killed, the stakes are too high. 

I doubt that extra 5 minutes, would had prevented a structure fire to go to full extent. If the fire is that engaged, time is gone. Proper firefighting strategies, stream and interior attack and ventilation is far more important than going 15 mph over the speed limit. As far as anyone disregards the traffic signals, I will be happy to testify against them. This would be considered disregard to safety to public, and property. I know several EVOC and public safety instructors, that would gladly testify. 

I guess this is one of those agree to disagree....

Be safe,
R/r911

R/r 911


----------



## disassociative (Jul 12, 2006)

he he. I respect your style and your experience RidRyder911. For the record;
our chief would have our @** if we were caught doing 90 mph to a scene, lol.


I think it really falls under Scene Safety in a way; an injured responder is not
only unable to treat anyone, but is also a liability unto the other medical personell.


----------



## FFEMT1764 (Jul 12, 2006)

Yes this does fall under the agree to disagree column. I agree that 90 mph is too fast, period. however 65 in a 50 is not too fast, especially since most roads around here were made in the 60's and 70's and had to fall in line with the Eisenhower interstate plan, plus the DOT builds roads for 20 mph more than they post on the speed limit signs, and supposedly the DOT is a safety minded state entity.

Of course everyone is not going to see eye to eye on this, and as long as our state and our department allows us to use lights and sirens I will continue to do so.


----------



## KEVD18 (Jul 12, 2006)

in ma, a permit requested by the chief of the dept and issued by the registrar is required for blue and red lights. blue for the cops and red for fire/ems

i use my pov for a multitude of things, including responding to scenes or the station for coverage. therefore, it is lit in an effective but not overly done way.


----------



## gradygirl (Jul 12, 2006)

I don't believe we have any need for light bars in private EMT vehicles as most of our services require employees, even vollies, to stay in some sort of base area. The only lights I've seen on private vehicles are in volley fire vehicles. But even then, one can only have blue and white lights. Red lights are only for the chiefs' vehicles.

For our campus squad, however, there is a bit of difference. We don't really have a vehicle (well, we do, sort of, but it's been offline and won't be going online any time soon), so we use personal vehicles or LEOs vehicles to respond across campus. I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing some sort of light combos on personal vehicles soon.


_The First Law of Ambulance Driving:

No matter how fast you drive the Ambulance when responding to a call, it will never be fast enough, unless you pass a Police Cruiser, at which point it will be entirely too fast._


----------



## Ridryder911 (Jul 12, 2006)

Cute saying, but truthfully the law is that it is always the emergency vehicle operators fault. The operator is to maintain and control of the vehicle at all times in regard to property and safety to others. In other words, if you are involved in a crash (noticed I did state accident, since there is no such thing) it is the EVOC fault. 

My state, emergency driving law does not have a set speed limit, but recognizes, that the EVOC is the professional, and by doing so assumes the risk. Hence is automatically guilty, if there is such an occurrence.

R/r 911


----------



## FFEMT1764 (Jul 12, 2006)

The law here isnt the same as it is there, here it is up to the officer to decide who was at fault, if they determine the EV was using due regard and was being as cautious as possible given they are responding to an emergency, then they can, and usually do, cite the driver of the other vehicle for either/and driving to fast for conditions, failure to yeild to an emergency vehicle(automatic 6 pts and $750 here), and if they can find more violations after that then things go up from there...I have been in 2 wrecks in an ambulance running code 3 and BOTH times the other driver was charged with the wreck and cited for one of the above mentioned violations, or both as in the one case when the moron thought they should try to outrun the ambulance that just past them...which leads me to the intelligence of the common person, which is a debate for another time.


----------



## HFD EMS (Jul 12, 2006)

I am A Volunteer EMT First Responder and i keep my Jump bag and equipment in my truck.  I dont have a siren, however, i do have a blue strobe light that is attached to my dash.  I arrive before the ambulance and usually can give a brief pt asessment before the ambulance even gets on scene.  No i dont agree with breaking the laws however in my area when people see a flashing blue light they know to slow down and pull over over and allow the vehicle to pass safely and quickly.  I honestly dont remember when the last time we have had trouble with a MFR going to a scene and having a wreck on the way there.  I think that they are very efficent and are a nice tool to get to the scene quick and SAFELY! My insurance co. has given me no problems because of that as well.


----------



## Flight-LP (Jul 12, 2006)

FFEMT1764 said:
			
		

> Yes this does fall under the agree to disagree column. I agree that 90 mph is too fast, period. however 65 in a 50 is not too fast, especially since most roads around here were made in the 60's and 70's and had to fall in line with the Eisenhower interstate plan, plus the DOT builds roads for 20 mph more than they post on the speed limit signs, and supposedly the DOT is a safety minded state entity.
> 
> Of course everyone is not going to see eye to eye on this, and as long as our state and our department allows us to use lights and sirens I will continue to do so.



I'd love to see how far that one gets you in court! 65 in a 50 is too fast. That equation is the same as saying its o.k. to do 35 in a 20..........What if that 20 is in a school zone? Bottom line, do the limit maybe 5 over it with extreme due regard. But honestly, I have traveled all over this island we call North America and have yet to see a majority of woo-woo wackers actually be responsible behind the wheel with a "gall's special" light package. Oh and by the way, I can tell you as an experienced medical - legal consultant that neither ALLstate nor State Farm will back you in the case of an injury accident regardless of fault. Your local agent can blow smoke up your *** all day long, but in the end, they will turn their back. Perhaps more people need to think twice about having a true need or lack of..............


----------



## FFEMT1764 (Jul 13, 2006)

Flight-LP said:
			
		

> neither ALLstate nor State Farm will back you in the case of an injury accident regardless of fault. Your local agent can blow smoke up your *** all day long, but in the end, they will turn their back.


 
Actually in SC they have to back you, the general assembly made it a state law, to protect volunteers from just this particular thing.


----------



## gradygirl (Jul 13, 2006)

Flight-LP said:
			
		

> I'd love to see how far that one gets you in court! 65 in a 50 is too fast. That equation is the same as saying its o.k. to do 35 in a 20..........



Ok, so the speed ratio is the same, but from a typical driver's standpoint, these two scenarios are very different. Please tell me that most of us here does not do at least 65+ on the highway. In Atlanta, the speed limits on highways is typically 55. Yet, going 75, you will still be passed by almost every single other driver, especially on large highways. In fact, some students from one of the state colleges did an experiment on traffic patterns in Atlanta by going the 55 speed limit, which actually caused other drivers take serious risks and caused a huge uproar. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5366552067462745475. So is going 65 in a 50 zone a huge issue? I think it depends greatly on the city, the highway itself, etc., etc.

We had a huge debate in our EMT class about a year ago on how fast we could drive, in this case, an ambulance. A girl insisted that we should be able to have an unlimited speed limit and that we shouldn't ever have to worry about being stopped by LEOs. Our instructor argued with her that unless she had gone to countless driving schools and had multiple licenses, there is no way she should ever think about driving a 9+ ton vehicle at an unlimited rate of speed and that yes, LEOs could pull her over if she tried to do so. And, with the whole crashes involving EVs, none of the crashes I have been told about by friends involved in them have been cited as being the driver's fault. Every single crash was caused by some moron trying to outrun an EV and either the EMT trying to stop and not being able to, or the other party t-boning the ambulance.


----------



## Ridryder911 (Jul 13, 2006)

Need proof about EMS crashes?... http://www.emsnetwork.org/ambulance_crashes_2002.htm.. Might want to read, the outcome and later on the law suit verdicts. Again, everyone is taught that L&S only asks for right away, and that emergency vehicles is NEVER excused from the normal safety ordinances. This is taught in all EVOC courses, litretature. 

I think most of you will be shocked, that the EMS will always be sued, and most likely will loose. Drivers are supposed to be able to be in control vehicle at all times, with regards of safety to public and property in a safe and operating manner. 

R/r 911


----------



## gradygirl (Jul 13, 2006)

OK, I have heard of one fairly new ordinance in our area. AMR (in CT, at least) has made it company policy to fire ANY employee who does not come to a full stop at a stop sign, stop light, what-have-you, regardless of what vehicle said employee is driving. So basically, if someone from the dept. sees their coworker driving a personal vehicle not fully stop at a stop sign, they are obligated to report the violation and the offending employee will be fired.


----------



## Ridryder911 (Jul 13, 2006)

VFI describes that 25% of Volunteer Firefighters death is related to responding to an emergency in their p.o.v. Here is a link regarding running p.o.v right side links  http://www.vfis.com/risk/risk_communique.asp#


----------



## KEVD18 (Jul 13, 2006)

TCERT1987 said:
			
		

> OK, I have heard of one fairly new ordinance in our area. AMR (in CT, at least) has made it company policy to fire ANY employee who does not come to a full stop at a stop sign, stop light, what-have-you, regardless of what vehicle said employee is driving. So basically, if someone from the dept. sees their coworker driving a personal vehicle not fully stop at a stop sign, they are obligated to report the violation and the offending employee will be fired.




scare tactic from beginning to end. they cant fire you for something you did on your time, in your vehicle on the finger of another street level employee. its not possible, probable or legal.

ex.: person a pisses of person b. to get back at person a , person b files an erroneous report of a blown red light by person a. the next day, person b actually runs a red light, witnessed by person a. a report is filed.

from the companies standpoint, which reprort is valid and which isnt. anybody with a fuctioning brainstem can see that at least one of these reports is retalitory(when in fact both are)

its a bs scare tactic trying to get amr employees to toe the line just a little bit more. they tried the same thing when i was there and it died in about a week. they also put the black boxes in the truck. man were those fun to play with. its pathetic and disgusting to me


----------



## Ridryder911 (Jul 13, 2006)

I agree, it does sound a little far fetch for a private company, especially driving violations (minor). Sounds like a little "safety" blurb, hopefully to make each other drive better, albeit, it appears stupid. 

R/r 911


----------



## gradygirl (Jul 13, 2006)

KEVD18 said:
			
		

> its a bs scare tactic trying to get amr employees to toe the line just a little bit more.



I wish it were just a scare tactic. Unfortunately, two friends of mine were just fired by AMR for allegedly not stopping at an intersection before going through while on a code. These two incidents were unrelated and both were unfounded, one because the supervisor saw the alleged running of the stop light in his rearview mirror. Both people claim that they came to a complete stop, but both were still fired.


----------



## VinBin (Jul 13, 2006)

Speaking of trauma doc's and lights/sirens, I think thats probably the only time (generalizing, of course) when it would warrant someone responding with their personal vehicle to a call.  I would be all for that Neurosurgeon getting to the hospital a few min faster, rather than some EMT/Medic flying down at 90 to get to a headache call 1 or 2 min before the ambulance.


----------



## Flight-LP (Jul 13, 2006)

Or better yet, you could take the patient to a neuro staffed and equipped hospital..............


----------



## VinBin (Jul 13, 2006)

arent most trauma centers staffed with surgeons "on call"?? They dont have to be at the hospital, yes?


----------



## Flight-LP (Jul 13, 2006)

Tertiary level 1 trauma centers will have neurosurgery in house.


----------



## Jon (Jul 13, 2006)

TCERT1987 said:
			
		

> OK, I have heard of one fairly new ordinance in our area. AMR (in CT, at least) has made it company policy to fire ANY employee who does not come to a full stop at a stop sign, stop light, what-have-you, regardless of what vehicle said employee is driving. So basically, if someone from the dept. sees their coworker driving a personal vehicle not fully stop at a stop sign, they are obligated to report the violation and the offending employee will be fired.


AMR's national safety policy says that, running "code 3" or not, you MUST stop at any red light or stop sign... and termnation is a KNOWN punisment for the FIRST offense. EVERY employee is told this at the time of hire... you can't say "no one told me".

I did not belive that it can be applied "off work" in personal vehicles... and I don't think AMR, anywhere, would let regular employees run any form of "emergency" lights in their Personal Vehicles... If someone gets canned for something they did in their POV, off the clock, then AMR will probably be sued.


----------



## Ridryder911 (Jul 13, 2006)

Flight-LP said:
			
		

> Tertiary level 1 trauma centers will have neurosurgery in house.



I wished that was always true... I know of two Level I that have neurosurgery on call. They are evaluated by a 2'nd year neuro resident then called in ... and yes, they are ACS certified Level I... yeah, scary

r/r 911


----------



## KEVD18 (Jul 14, 2006)

yeah, in a company truck you'll get canned on the spot. my argument was to you first statement, "regardless of what vehicle said employee is driving". that lead me to believe that you included pov's.


----------



## gradygirl (Jul 15, 2006)

fair enough. i think i know of the whole personal vehicle thing because of another person i know being fired by amr for an alleged red light violation, but then being rehired. he was told if he was seen not following company protocol while in his personal vehicle, he would be fired again. i guess it was their way of throwing their weight around and saying "we'll forgive you once..." <_<


----------



## darkhorse72 (Jul 20, 2006)

I am new to the forum and a new First Responder. I don't as yet have lights on my POV because I am a volunteer and the funds need to come from my pocket, but I will have them. After reading this thread I felt that there is a very important use for lights that is being overlooked. I live in a very rural area. I agree there is no reason to speed. I also agree that there are some _old school drivers_ who will pull off to let you by. I say old school because I remember my first drivers license test had a question about allowing emergency vehicles to pass. It was law then, guess it isn't or isn't important enough to ticket now. The reason I will have lights is that I will most likely be on the scene 25 to 30 minutes before an ambulance will arrive. We live in a very mountainous, wooded area with lots of dirt roads, logging roads, snowmobile trails, etc. The lights on my vehicle as well as the other responders will help to direct the ambulance to the area. We know more about our back yard then the ambulance service does and those lights can save them a lot of time.
Just another perspective.


----------



## cpsains (Jul 20, 2006)

It was cool to have lights on my POV for about 2 months.  The newness was gone and the reality set in.  It is a big responsability.  Not willing to risk it with all the wonderful drivers on are roads now adays.  I still kept the light inside and put it on at the scene, as a marker for arriving units.


----------



## Jon (Jul 20, 2006)

darkhorse72 said:
			
		

> I am new to the forum and a new First Responder. I don't as yet have lights on my POV because I am a volunteer and the funds need to come from my pocket, but I will have them. After reading this thread I felt that there is a very important use for lights that is being overlooked. I live in a very rural area. I agree there is no reason to speed. I also agree that there are some _old school drivers_ who will pull off to let you by. I say old school because I remember my first drivers license test had a question about allowing emergency vehicles to pass. It was law then, guess it isn't or isn't important enough to ticket now. The reason I will have lights is that I will most likely be on the scene 25 to 30 minutes before an ambulance will arrive. We live in a very mountainous, wooded area with lots of dirt roads, logging roads, snowmobile trails, etc. The lights on my vehicle as well as the other responders will help to direct the ambulance to the area. We know more about our back yard then the ambulance service does and those lights can save them a lot of time.
> Just another perspective.


Just a comment about "emergency vehicles"

Many states consider the vollie FF's with lights (blue, red, green, whatever) to be courtesy lights, not an emergency warning device... they don't have to pull over.

If they fail to pull over for an ambulance, the cops can, and do, write them tickets.


----------



## darkhorse72 (Jul 22, 2006)

MedicStudentJon said:
			
		

> Just a comment about "emergency vehicles"
> 
> Many states consider the vollie FF's with lights (blue, red, green, whatever) to be courtesy lights, not an emergency warning device... they don't have to pull over.
> 
> If they fail to pull over for an ambulance, the cops can, and do, write them tickets.


That is a good point. The state of Vermont statutes does require upon the approach of an ambulance, fire apparatus, a vehicle operated by a volunteer firefighter, EMS personnel, or a motor vehicle used in rescue operations, pull to the right of the lane of traffic and come to a complete stop until the vehicle has passed. 
I wonder how many states do consider them as courtesy lights?


----------



## Rangat (Aug 4, 2006)

2 weeks ago, one of Kempton Park's yellow DENNIS fire apparatus was in an accident, 

the truck was responding through a yield sign, and didn't see a drunk audi coming from the side. it hit the truck and it rolled 3 times.

The Paramedic Response Vehicle driving behind it was on the scene before the truck stopped rolling.

minor injuries...


----------



## doc5242 (Aug 7, 2006)

where I live, only Medical officers or directors can have sirens for an ems agency,  the "blue light" is a courtesy light, the cops will pull you over and take your light and your license if you break the law. up here people dont even pull over for the ambulance, let alone a blue light. My personal opinion is that in the wrong hands it is just another whacker toy that causes more trouble than does good, but that is just my personal feeling.


----------



## SwissEMT (Aug 7, 2006)

darkhorse72 said:
			
		

> I don't as yet have lights on my POV because I am a volunteer and the funds need to come from my pocket, but I will have them.



The lights which you will place in your vehicle will NEVER ameliorate a calls outcome PERIOD. Is it cool? Well, if you're into the firehouse bull:censored::censored::censored::censored:, then sure.

Never forget the bigger picture and the place in which all of your tools fall.

Save your money, further your training and get your EMT license instead. 
Your patient outcome will improve. They sure as hell won't remain concious until ALS is on scene due to the dual strobe 2000 on your dash with 17 flash patterns including "EMS" in morse code.


----------



## FF894 (Sep 2, 2006)

Raf said:


> I have an EMT-B friend up in Maine and his employer gave him permission to have a strobe in the front of his personal vehicle so he can respond on his own. Anyone else have this? Anyone have a full lightbar or siren?
> 
> I guess you have to live in a pretty rural area to have that priviledge?




If we didn't have lights and sirens on our POV our program would not exist.


----------



## ffemt8978 (Sep 2, 2006)

FF894 said:


> If we didn't have lights and sirens on our POV our program would not exist.



Sounds like people are joining for the wrong reasons.


----------



## FF894 (Sep 2, 2006)

Oh yeah, in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, with a *valid red light permit and responding in accordance with the rules and regualtions of responding procedures *(same as all responders, police, ambulance, fire dept., state police, etc) a POV is considered an emergency vehicles.  Other drivers on the road must treat POVs as emergency vehicles or are subject to traffic violations.  ie: a non-english-speaking, non-citizen, not registered behicle, not licensed operator refused to pull over for me while I was responding to a call.  I called in his plate on the PD frequency.  Among others, he received a citation for not yeilding to an emergency vehicle.


----------



## FF894 (Sep 2, 2006)

ffemt8978 said:


> Sounds like people are joining for the wrong reasons.



Sounds like your department is run differently and you do not understand how we operate?  Beleive me when I say there have been people in the past who abused the priveledge.  They are first given a warning and probation extended.  If it happens again they are terminated.  Don't think for one minute that we have a bunch of yahoos driving around all the time with their lights and sirens on and not following the rules of the road.


----------



## ffemt8978 (Sep 2, 2006)

I've been on both types of departments (with lights in POV and without).  My comment was based upon my experiences where people wanted to join and then respond with their lights on, causing all types of problems.  If your POV is licensed as an authorized emergency vehicle, then that is a seperate issue.  The topic here was initially about the "courtesy lights".

Courtesy lights will not get you there any faster unless you break the law (speeding, etc...) while using them.  Where courtesy lights are effective is when you're parked on scene in an area that is not a desiganted parking space.


----------



## Jon (Sep 2, 2006)

ffemt8978 said:


> I've been on both types of departments (with lights in POV and without).  My comment was based upon my experiences where people wanted to join and then respond with their lights on, causing all types of problems.  If your POV is licensed as an authorized emergency vehicle, then that is a seperate issue.  The topic here was initially about the "courtesy lights".
> 
> Courtesy lights will not get you there any faster unless you break the law (speeding, etc...) while using them.  Where courtesy lights are effective is when you're parked on scene in an area that is not a desiganted parking space.


Well put!

IMHO, you can "get away with more" by NOT having lights on the car... if you run a red light with your courtsey lights on, you are an a-hole Firefighter and they call your chief... If you run a red light and don't have the courtsey light on, you get away with it!


----------



## RH3075 (Sep 3, 2006)

I'm in a pretty large urban city right across the river from manhattan.  One new basic showed up at the medical center where I work with a truck loaded with lights, strobes, sirens etc.  He was from the suburbs and wanted to see what working in the city was like.  He was instantly nicknamed "whacker" and he also found out on his first day driving home from work that the city police do not take to kindly to private vehicles with lights on them.  He did not end up staying and working in the city for long. Besides, we run so many calls here, I have no desire to work a job when im not on the clock or riding at my volunteer squad.

RH


----------



## FF894 (Sep 4, 2006)

ffemt8978 said:


> I've been on both types of departments (with lights in POV and without).  My comment was based upon my experiences where people wanted to join and then respond with their lights on, causing all types of problems.  If your POV is licensed as an authorized emergency vehicle, then that is a seperate issue.  The topic here was initially about the "courtesy lights".
> 
> Courtesy lights will not get you there any faster unless you break the law (speeding, etc...) while using them.  Where courtesy lights are effective is when you're parked on scene in an area that is not a desiganted parking space.



The topic was initially asking whether people were allowed to have strobes/lights/sirens on their vehciles to respond.  I was responding to that question.  More than 50% of Massachusetts emergency medical providers and fire departments are based on an on-call system where those responders use lights and sirens in their POVs to respond to the scene or the station during an emergency.  

You say you have worked in both so I would assume you are familar with some varation on the same system.  However, I don't know for sure exactly how it is ran where you are and it sounds like it didn't work out because of abuse or whackers taking it too far.  I wouldn't presume that I know better than you what the needs of your town/jurisdiction are as far as how responders will get to the scene.    Just because it failed or had problems where you live does not mean that we have similar problems here.  Our rules and regulations are very clear on what you can and cannot do and anybody abusing thes policies will be discplined accordingly.  And yes, we have had our share of whackers that just want to use the lights and sirens for fun to respond to calls.  They are told to focus on what is important about the job or find another department to work for.  

As far as my own lights, responding to the New Jersey whacker story, all of my lights are completly undercover.  You can only tell I have them when they are on.  I don't like calling extra attention to myself when I am off duty and out to dinner.  No reason to drive around looking like a police car


----------



## ffemt8978 (Sep 4, 2006)

Point taken.


----------



## EMTalex (Sep 6, 2006)

i think it would be great mate. never mind the insurance or anything like that. except i would use it for getting through traffic and what not. ^_^


----------

