# Ontario Air Ambulance System Investigated



## ArcticKat (Sep 7, 2011)

It has been revealed that helicopters used by ORNGE, the air ambulance service contracted for the province of Ontario are more limited in their capabilities than their predessecors.  Among the deficiencies is the inability to do CPR, the weight of the patient can not exceed 260 pounds, and a new response limitation means the helicopter does not launch as quickly as it used to.

http://watch.ctv.ca/news/latest/air-ambulance-probe/#clip527746

The helicopter is the AW139


----------



## Shishkabob (Sep 7, 2011)

*sigh*


Civilians thinking they know better than the people who do it day in and day out.


----------



## ArcticKat (Sep 7, 2011)

I'll post a link to the next segment tonight which describes the reasoning for a speedboat and a superbike.


----------



## BEorP (Sep 7, 2011)

"Flying through any weather" Ha.


The new launch policy could definitely end up negatively affecting patient care. Yes, 62% of the time it will save them fuel and save the paramedics and pilots from needing to go and get cancelled. But 38% of the time there will be a delay to launching when a patient actually needs them.


----------



## BEorP (Sep 7, 2011)

Linuss said:


> *sigh*
> 
> 
> Civilians thinking they know better than the people who do it day in and day out.



Did you watch the video? It sounds like the initial concerns were raised by a paramedic.


----------



## Shishkabob (Sep 7, 2011)

BEorP said:


> Did you watch the video? It sounds like the initial concerns were raised by a paramedic.



Yes, I did.  But I also watched the journalists comments on the matter.


I hate journalists, what can I say?


----------



## usalsfyre (Sep 7, 2011)

I'm just gonna say...

If you can't do patient flights because of weight in an AW139, your carrying too much crap. That is all.


----------



## usafmedic45 (Sep 7, 2011)

> Among the deficiencies is the inability to do CPR



Doing CPR in any aircraft is a pain in the ***....



> If you can't do patient flights because of weight in an AW139, your carrying too much crap. That is all.



Eh....if I recall, they have to fly dual pilot which might account for the lower weight limits.  That said, all HEMS operations should be flown dual pilot. 

NOTE: I did not watch the video.


----------



## mintygood (Sep 8, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> Doing CPR in any aircraft is a pain in the ***....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



doing cpr anywhere is a pain in the ***


----------



## usalsfyre (Sep 8, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> Doing CPR in any aircraft is a pain in the ***....


Yeah, I'm not sure exactly what the complaint was, I mean have they ever seen where the patient goes in a BO105?



usafmedic45 said:


> Eh....if I recall, they have to fly dual pilot which might account for the lower weight limits.  That said, all HEMS operations should be flown dual pilot.


I was going solely off of useful loads. An S76 is like 4500 and a AW139 is slightly over 6000. Meaning is the 76s could fly 400 and the 139s only 260 somewhere they added a whole bunch of crap (granted, I don't remember if useful load includes fuel, that may account for some).

Look for similar complaints from MSP in the near future.


----------



## usafmedic45 (Sep 8, 2011)

Useful load includes fuel normally.  It also varies with altitude and density altitude.



> Look for similar complaints from MSP in the near future.



As long as it doesn't involve more deaths, I look forward to their whining.


----------



## ArcticKat (Sep 8, 2011)

Meanwhile, the Bell 429 can carry a 500# patient and costs half as much to buy or to operate as a 139.


----------



## usalsfyre (Sep 8, 2011)

Like I said, I just wonder what the heck they're carrying. An AW139 is a whole class of aircraft larger than the typical US HEMS program uses (medium twin vs light twin/single). Even with a second pilot you would think they could lift WELL over 260.


----------



## usafmedic45 (Sep 8, 2011)

> Meanwhile, the Bell 429 can carry a 500# patient and costs half as much to buy or to operate as a 139.



Is that with or without a second pilot?  Doing the math that a full fuel load and a four person crew plus the patient and the standard gear for an air ambulance would put it pretty close to the MTOW and probably above it in high DA environments.


----------



## lightsandsirens5 (Sep 8, 2011)

Maybe whoever is griping could quit it and get some of these for ORNGE. 







Now we truly can fly in any weather. CPR? No problem! Hey, we even have a full trauma team or cath team if you need it. And patient weight, not really an issue, unless you weigh 1,500 pounds. Not only that, if we can't land, we'll winch a medical team down to you and lift you out, no extra charge!

Just kidding of course. 

I really don't see what everyone is complaining about. Out here the air amb uses either EC-135s or BO-105s. I honestly cant see doing CPR in a BO-105, and unless you want to do it one handed the whole way, it would be really tough in an EC-135. From the pictures I've seen, the 429s have WAY more room than a 105.

I'm guessing the medic that raised this concern works in a huge pavement queen of an ambulance and probably has some form of God Complex too.


----------



## Handsome Robb (Sep 8, 2011)

usalsfyre said:


> Yeah, I'm not sure exactly what the complaint was, I mean have they ever seen where the patient goes in a BO105?



or an AS350. 

Density altitude is way up there? Sorry Mr. flightmedic we will come back for you later :rofl:


----------



## usafmedic45 (Sep 8, 2011)

> From the pictures I've seen, the 429s have WAY more room than a 105.



A phone booth has more room than a 105.


----------



## ArcticKat (Sep 8, 2011)

usafmedic45 said:


> Is that with or without a second pilot?  Doing the math that a full fuel load and a four person crew plus the patient and the standard gear for an air ambulance would put it pretty close to the MTOW and probably above it in high DA environments.



Actually, I thought that was a bit high myself.  I did quite a bit of research on it and with the Air Methods HEMS platform it's 5111#.  That leaves 2389# for fuel, crew and pax.
Max fuel is 1475#, with two flight crew at 200# each and two medics at 200#, that leaves 114# for the patient.

I got that 500# figure from the Bell sales rep, I didn't bother to follow up to determine the crew on board.  I'm guessing he was going with one medic and one pilot.

Having said that, my response plan had the helicopter flying no more than 2 hours at a time.  With reserve one could conceivably reduce the fuel load by 600#.  That would provide adequate weight for two patients.  

Not sure how I would feel about the reduced fuel load though, as a pilot I do it all the time...but in HEMS I'm torn.


----------

