# WTF cop?



## armydawg11b

So my first clinical was this past Saturday, I showed up at 0745 because shift change was supposed to be 0800. Turns out that things had changed since my school set up clinical times. My preceptor wasn't coming on till 0900 so , I had time to kill. They allow me to "ride along" with another paramedic just to get one call in before I actually started my clinical. Here's the call
Tones drop. we load up. 42 y/o male, suicidal threats. This guy is I guess a frequent flyer with these guys, and is super trouble. He weighs around 280. Because of the nature of the call we stage. Once PD makes contact clears it safe we pull up. The medic tells me to grab the jump bag and follow him. As soon as he enters the room the PT gets loud as hell. As I turn to follow him into the tiny motel room that is at known drug motel I see about 13 Rx bottles strewn everywhere inside and outside the room. Since it's a tiny room the Pt is sitting on the bed , the medic directly over him, me in the doorway to the room, and the PD officer and Local fire standing outside the door. Right beside the Pt on the night stand was a freaking 10 in steak knife. Probably within a foot of his right hand. I was able to set the huge jump bag on the knife slide it backwards and take the knife away w/o the psycho seeing. I stepped toward the door and asked the guys behind me to put it somewhere. At that time the cop said "WTF" except he didn't use the abbreviation. The rest of the call went downhill with this guy. Even if he wouldn't have got a hand on it just from a scuffle someone probably would have fallen on this thing. These rooms are literally 10 by 8. Moral is, never put scene safety in someone else's hands.


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## VFlutter

armydawg11b said:


> I was able to set the huge jump bag on the knife slide it backwards and take the knife away w/o the *psycho *seeing



By Psycho I assume you mean your patient, a suicidal man with mental health and substance abuse issues, and not literally a Psychopath which is totally different and a specific mental disorder.


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## STXmedic

Chase said:


> By Psycho I assume you mean your patient, a suicidal man with mental health and substance abuse issues, and not literally a Psychopath which is totally different and a specific mental disorder.



Quoted for emphasis.


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## Aidey

Chase said:


> By Psycho I assume you mean your patient, a suicidal man with mental health and substance abuse issues, and not literally a Psychopath which is totally different and a specific mental disorder.



Quoted for double emphasis. Calling a patient "psycho" is an immediate fail if you're riding with me. 

Also, if I demanded a complete lack of potential weapons before entering a room or building I may as well just sit in the ambulance and let every patient walk out to me.


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## mike1390

Aidey said:


> Also, if I demanded a complete lack of potential weapons before entering a room or building I may as well just sit in the ambulance and let every patient walk out to me.



This... if someones actually wants to hurt you or others, they won't need a typical "weapon".


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## Handsome Robb

Aidey said:


> Quoted for double emphasis. Calling a patient "psycho" is an immediate fail if you're riding with me.
> 
> Also, if I demanded a complete lack of potential weapons before entering a room or building I may as well just sit in the ambulance and let every patient walk out to me.



Agreed on both accounts. Yes our safety is the most important thing but this job has inherent risks associated with it. If I had a nickel for every time I took a weapon off someone after PD searched them or cleared a room I'd have a few nickels but not a ton.


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## CentralCalEMT

Good job realizing that scene safety is your main priority. That being said, not that it excuses it, but sometimes things do get missed. Just last week I had a mildly combative OD patient I got from the cops with a big pocket knife in his pocket. Before that, I can not remember any instances when the cops gave me a patient that still had weapons on them. Just remember in the heat of moment we all are human (EMS Cops, Fire) and sometimes we mess up and overlook things. That is just another reason we need to have each other's back and look out for each other because if we don't nobody else is.


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## CALEMT

Like Robb and CentralCalEMT say: in the heat of the moment cops are human and tend to miss some things. I remember a particular call awhile ago we went on a OD and PD cleared the scene and the pt was in handcuffs. We run the call all normal, we put the pt on the gurney and it turned out that the pt had a loaded 45 on him (I think it was a 45). Sometimes the cops miss things, hell I remember a youtube video of a suspect in a interrogation room, cop leaves the suspect in the room to go get a water. Suspect pulls a gun and off's himself in the interrogation room in the police station.


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## exodus

CALEMT said:


> Like Robb and CentralCalEMT say: in the heat of the moment cops are human and tend to miss some things. I remember a particular call awhile ago we went on a OD and PD cleared the scene and the pt was in handcuffs. We run the call all normal, we put the pt on the gurney and it turned out that the pt had a loaded 45 on him (I think it was a 45). Sometimes the cops miss things, hell I remember a youtube video of a suspect in a interrogation room, cop leaves the suspect in the room to go get a water. Suspect pulls a gun and off's himself in the interrogation room in the police station.



And that was even after it being an OIS.


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## CALEMT

exodus said:


> And that was even after it being an OIS.



OIS as in officer involved shooting then no. It was a OD a couple years back, the pt was in and out of it and we just simply took the gun off him and handed it over to pd.


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## ffemt8978

Okay, now that I've removed the off topic posts in this thread, this is a reminder...

KEEP IT ON TOPIC AND KEEP IT CIVIL!

Failure to do so will result in a minimum of a 30 day ban.


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## armydawg11b

Again, I'm a student. I didn't call the guy a psycho at all during shift. I would also like to throw out that the ER. Doc stated he was having a psychotic episode. So yea, psycho cuts. Also, the point was scene safety. I get everyone is human but with that call, to miss a huge steak knife out in the open within arms reach of PT. Is inexcusable. I wonder if letting my preceptor get stabed would have been an automatic fail?


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## DesertMedic66

Everyone makes mistakes. Paramedics make them, firefighters make them, police officers make them.


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## Household6

Does anyone else check waistbands before they put a pt in the rig?


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## triemal04

armydawg-

You didn't do anything wrong on that call.  As far as calling the patient a "psycho"...not the most accurate term, and not the most polite given the setting here, but...people need to get over themselves.

As far as that call, safety is everyone's responsibility for a reason, and we work with partner's for a reason.  Part of your job is to watch his back, and part of his is to watch yours.  Police are human, and everyone misses something on occasion.  As long as everyone is paying attention, not often a big deal.

If you do make this a career, you also need to keep in mind that a "secure scene" will mean something different to the police than to the vast majority of people in EMS.  I work in a lousy area; a secure scene here (and this is police policy) means that nobody is actively shooting at them.  Sometimes also means that not more than 1 or 2 people are fighting, though that isn't policy.

My point is that just because somebody, anybody, says that the scene is "secure" doesn't mean that it really is and that you don't need to pay attention.


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## Handsome Robb

I agree with triemal04. Scene secure is a broad term. Scene security is also dynamic and constantly changing. A "safe" scene can become unsafe very quickly. 



armydawg11b said:


> Again, I'm a student. I didn't call the guy a psycho at all during shift. I would also like to throw out that the ER. Doc stated he was having a psychotic episode. So yea, psycho cuts. Also, the point was scene safety. I get everyone is human but with that call, to miss a huge steak knife out in the open within arms reach of PT. Is inexcusable. I wonder if letting my preceptor get stabed would have been an automatic fail?



I'd be lying if I said I haven't ever referred to a patient as a psycho after a call. It's all about the setting you're in. There's a time and a place. We want to be called professionals yet we use terminology that many bid derogatory on public forums for the people that we care for to stumble across....this isn't directed at you armydawg just a general statement. 

Since you re a student ill use a teaching point...a psychotic episode is different than a psychopath/"psycho".

People make mistakes, more than one person has pointed out they've taken weapons off of people after they've been searched. I get you're upset about it but it'll happen again if you spend enough time on an ambulance. Also didn't you say he was handcuffed? Who cares if the knife is within arm's reach then? 



Household6 said:


> Does anyone else check waistbands before they put a pt in the rig?



Depends on the nature of the call and the patient.

There are areas here where either us and the FD will use the PA to have people lift their shirt up and do a 360 then pull their pant legs up before we get out of the rig. Again that depends on the area, situation and nature of the call.


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## VFlutter

armydawg11b said:


> Again, I'm a student. I didn't call the guy a psycho at all during shift. I would also like to throw out that the ER. Doc stated he was having a psychotic episode. So yea, psycho cuts.



I understand that you are a student that is why it is important to understand the correct terminology. "Psycho" is usually used as a derogatory term used to describe anyone with mental illness. Psychopathy (psychopath) is a very specific personality disorder. Psychotic episode is not the same as psychopathy, totally different. So ya, no psycho does not cut it.


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## exodus

Household6 said:


> Does anyone else check waistbands before they put a pt in the rig?



Any unconscious / ETOH I'll do a quick patdown or ask them if they have any weapons.


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## feldy

this kind of stuff happens all the time...weve even had instances where pd will tell us its safe and we show up and they are are pulling up behind us...

none the less body position is key in this situation and leave a way out. ive had to pick up a knife and slide in under the couch or bed at times while my partner talks to the pt. 

just be smart and be safe. If you feel uncomfortable/unsafe, just back out.


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## Global Emergency Vehicles

armydawg11b said:


> So my first clinical was this past Saturday, I showed up at 0745 because shift change was supposed to be 0800. Turns out that things had changed since my school set up clinical times. My preceptor wasn't coming on till 0900 so , I had time to kill. They allow me to "ride along" with another paramedic just to get one call in before I actually started my clinical. Here's the call
> Tones drop. we load up. 42 y/o male, suicidal threats. This guy is I guess a frequent flyer with these guys, and is super trouble. He weighs around 280. Because of the nature of the call we stage. Once PD makes contact clears it safe we pull up. The medic tells me to grab the jump bag and follow him. As soon as he enters the room the PT gets loud as hell. As I turn to follow him into the tiny motel room that is at known drug motel I see about 13 Rx bottles strewn everywhere inside and outside the room. Since it's a tiny room the Pt is sitting on the bed , the medic directly over him, me in the doorway to the room, and the PD officer and Local fire standing outside the door. Right beside the Pt on the night stand was a freaking 10 in steak knife. Probably within a foot of his right hand. I was able to set the huge jump bag on the knife slide it backwards and take the knife away w/o the psycho seeing. I stepped toward the door and asked the guys behind me to put it somewhere. At that time the cop said "WTF" except he didn't use the abbreviation. The rest of the call went downhill with this guy. Even if he wouldn't have got a hand on it just from a scuffle someone probably would have fallen on this thing. These rooms are literally 10 by 8. Moral is, never put scene safety in someone else's hands.



Really scary that the PD would miss a weapon like that in the immediate vicinity of the guy.


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## Ewok Jerky

if someone is not under arrest I don't think PD has the authority to search them.  Take your typical EtOH/public disturbance call.  Cops show up, someone is drunk but not braking the law, medics show up to take him to the hospital.  Get in the truck and he has a pocket knife.  

A- he probably is not out to stab anyone
B- cops can't go around searching everyone for weapons without probable cause.


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## Aidey

Our safety is the probable cause in those cases.


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## ffemt8978

beano said:


> if someone is not under arrest I don't think PD has the authority to search them.  Take your typical EtOH/public disturbance call.  Cops show up, someone is drunk but not braking the law, medics show up to take him to the hospital.  Get in the truck and he has a pocket knife.
> 
> A- he probably is not out to stab anyone
> B- cops can't go around searching everyone for weapons without probable cause.





Aidey said:


> Our safety is the probable cause in those cases.



Not necessarily.  Just because we want the PD to search someone does not mean they have the legal authority to do so.


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## Household6

ffemt8978 said:


> Not necessarily.  Just because we want the PD to search someone does not mean they have the legal authority to do so.



If the patient wants treatment from me, they do. :lol: :lol: my size and gender give off the impression of a "soft-target" as they call it in the Army.  

I'll take pocket knives, pens, and car keys from a patient if I please. "Let me bag up these personal belongings so they don't get lost or poke you in the hip. Mmmmkay??"


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## ffemt8978

Household6 said:


> If the patient wants treatment from me, they do. :lol: :lol: my size and gender give off the impression of a "soft-target" as they call it in the Army.
> 
> I'll take pocket knives, pens, and car keys from a patient if I please. "Let me bag up these personal belongings so they don't get lost or poke you in the hip. Mmmmkay??"



You searching your patient is different, legally, than the police doing it.

Remember, anything you remove from a patient you now become liable for if it turns up missing.  They would even be able to claim something they didn't have turned up missing and you could be liable for it unless you document the crap out of what you removed from them and why.


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## Tigger

Call me naive or what have you, but generally if the patient called 911, consented to treatment, and allowed us to get him in the back of the ambulance, I guess I am really not that worried about the patient suddenly freaking out and stabbing me with car keys. 

I stay alert to changes in the patients attitude, but I do not operate under the auspices that every patient is out to hurt me.


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## CALEMT

Tigger said:


> Call me naive or what have you, but generally if the patient called 911, consented to treatment, and allowed us to get him in the back of the ambulance, I guess I am really not that worried about the patient suddenly freaking out and stabbing me with car keys.
> 
> I stay alert to changes in the patients attitude, but I do not operate under the auspices that every patient is out to hurt me.



Agreed. Best thing is to have situational awareness.


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## Tigger

Household6 said:


> If the patient wants treatment from me, they do. :lol: :lol: my size and gender give off the impression of a "soft-target" as they call it in the Army.
> 
> I'll take pocket knives, pens, and car keys from a patient if I please. "Let me bag up these personal belongings so they don't get lost or poke you in the hip. Mmmmkay??"



What if I said no?


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## Mariemt

A 10 inch steak knife is huge


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## 9D4

Tigger said:


> What if I said no?


I was going to ask the same thing. 
I don't think any supervisors would be too happy to hear that an emergent transport was delayed, because your employee delayed care by trying to confiscate the patient's car keys. 

Just my 2 cents. I'd still like to read an answer.


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## PotatoMedic

9D4 said:


> I was going to ask the same thing.
> I don't think any supervisors would be too happy to hear that an emergent transport was delayed, because your employee delayed care by trying to confiscate the patient's car keys.
> 
> Just my 2 cents. I'd still like to read an answer.



Medics told me a story where they responded to a house for unknown injury.  Found a person sitting in a chair who slit their wrists with keys.  Pt said I'm no going to the hospital get away from me.  as they were loosing a lot of blood.  Pd was called but the medics just waited for the pt to bleed out and pass out then scooped and ran before pd arrived.  

Long story short.  I will happily delay transport till it is safe to do so.


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## 9D4

FireWA1 said:


> Medics told me a story where they responded to a house for unknown injury.  Found a person sitting in a chair who slit their wrists with keys.  Pt said I'm no going to the hospital get away from me.  as they were loosing a lot of blood.  Pd was called but the medics just waited for the pt to bleed out and pass out then scooped and ran before pd arrived.
> 
> Long story short.  I will happily delay transport till it is safe to do so.


 
With all respect, one piece of anecdotal evidence takes away nothing from what I've said. There is simply no reason to take away a pt's car keys, pens, whatever else "because I please". Totally different story than for scene safety.


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## PotatoMedic

9D4 said:


> With all respect, one piece of anecdotal evidence takes away nothing from what I've said. There is simply no reason to take away a pt's car keys, pens, whatever else "because I please". Totally different story than for scene safety.



The point I was trying to make is that if someone I feel has access to a weapon of any kind (keys, pencil, anything, etc.) and I feel that they could use it against me, I will try to remove it from the situation or have pd/so come and try to remove it.  I think we have made it clear on this forum.  Our safety then our partners.  then the pt's.  And honestly it is hard to determine that from the post.  it is all about how I feel the interactions are going.

Just read the headlines today... a paramedic was beaten by a drunk patient.


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## Handsome Robb

beano said:


> if someone is not under arrest I don't think PD has the authority to search them.  Take your typical EtOH/public disturbance call.  Cops show up, someone is drunk but not braking the law, medics show up to take him to the hospital.  Get in the truck and he has a pocket knife.
> 
> A- he probably is not out to stab anyone
> B- cops can't go around searching everyone for weapons without probable cause.



Intoxicated in public is an arrestable charge here. Usually doesn't result in a citation just a sleep off session but if you're a prick you'll catch a misdemeanor. 

Also, disturbing the peace is also an arrestable offense as well. Causing a scene to the point of having EMS, Fire and PD can easily be turned into a DTP cite if you aren't cooperative. With that said if someone else calls it in and you're not making a scene, are oriented, not grossly intoxicated and you refuse my service I'll gladly let you off. I'll ask you to sign something once and if you keep walking or refuse I won't big you about it.

If you make me uncomfortable enough or give me a reason to search you and you refuse to allow me to you're not coming inside my ambulance, I'm getting in it with my partner and leaving and requesting PD. My safety is the most important. I generally put my partner above myself but either way WE are the priority. 

I don't work in the most dangerous area in the U.S. But we have plenty of violence, hell a 12 year old started popping off rounds outside a school yesterday and the night before that there was a shooting at one of the hospitals...

I'll ask PD away from the patient then ask the patient and lead with something like "I'm not trained to do it but he/she is and I'd appreciate it if you let them just pat you down real quick ". Pretty rare to have someone refuse that.


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## Household6

Robb said:


> If you make me uncomfortable enough or give me a reason to search you and you refuse to allow me to you're not coming inside my ambulance, I'm getting in it with my partner



Yup, exactly.. If I'm uneasy and I'm uncomfortable, it's not happening.


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## Tigger

Household6 said:


> Yup, exactly.. If I'm uneasy and I'm uncomfortable, it's not happening.



That's not really answering the question. You said you'd take keys and pocket knives as you please. Do the presence of those items make you uncomfortable on all patients?

Yeah, if the patient has slit their wrists with car keys or threatened someone with a knife, I think it goes without saying that I'm probably not going to transfer them with those items.

But if someone just has a knife or keys on them, do you take them automatically because they could maybe become a threat?


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## Household6

Tigger said:


> That's not really answering the question. You said you'd take keys and pocket knives as you please. Do the presence of those items make you uncomfortable on all patients?



Of course not, that's silly.. I figured I've been around here long enough for yous to know I'm not a *complete* idiot.. Right? Srsly, bro, am I coming across as a total nit-wit?

In fact, I almost always try to make sure that all my alert female patients have their purses right on the cot.. Because I'm a girl, and I know what it's like when you don't have your purse. Besides, sometimes meds are kept in there, ID, cell phone with ICE/NOK numbers.. 

But, I transported a trauma patient a couple months ago, he had a buck knife on his belt.. Most people up here do, their hunters, farmers, country folk.. Even though he was unresp, and flopping around like a Cabbage Patch Doll, that knife came off right away.. I didn't think the ER staff would have appreciated it..


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## Tigger

Household6 said:


> Of course not, that's silly.. I figured I've been around here long enough for yous to know I'm not a *complete* idiot.. Right? Srsly, bro, am I coming across as a total nit-wit?
> 
> In fact, I almost always try to make sure that all my alert female patients have their purses right on the cot.. Because I'm a girl, and I know what it's like when you don't have your purse. Besides, sometimes meds are kept in there, ID, cell phone with ICE/NOK numbers..
> 
> But, I transported a trauma patient a couple months ago, he had a buck knife on his belt.. Most people up here do, their hunters, farmers, country folk.. Even though he was unresp, and flopping around like a Cabbage Patch Doll, that knife came off right away.. I didn't think the ER staff would have appreciated it..



All I can do is read what you wrote...

Glad it isn't as originally written. I don't know what it is, but there are more than a few EMS providers I know that seem to operate with much higher perceived danger levels than I do or the coworkers I respect. Yes assaults on providers happen, and occasionally we are targeted in random violent crimes. But for the most part, our patients at least grudgingly accept that we are here to at least try to help them. 

I'm not sure if it's a fascination with being a part of "public safety" (debatable at any rate) or what, but there are many out there that see "psych patient" as "clear and present danger to self, must strap tightly down with seatbelts and tie ends in knots to prevent escape." I see my pocket knife as a way to open my ravioli dish or cut the lint out of spider straps, other people see "primary defensive tool against my patients." It seems like these same "providers" treat their patients like they are in custody or something..."you are in my ambulance now you will submit to my care as I see fit, I am all that is EMS!"

Or something like that. Maybe I've just had a lot of wackjob partners, who knows.


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## DrParasite

Tigger said:


> What if I said no?


You have the right to refuse to give up your weapons or your potential weapons.

And I have the right to refuse to treat and transport you until you do.  

It's really quite simple.


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## epipusher

Tigger pretty much summed it up.


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