# EMT refuses to respond



## LaceyA (Jun 24, 2015)

Whats your thoughts.... this just makes me sick 


http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/emt-refuses-to-rescue-baby-dies/33741914


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## Carlos Danger (Jun 24, 2015)

Very one-sided article - I'd like to hear the EMT's side of the story.

Maybe she knew something about that address that the dispatcher didn't. Were police on scene? What other information was given in the dispatch? Did she give dispatch a reason for not responding? These are all potentially important details that were left out of the news piece.


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## LaceyA (Jun 24, 2015)

I agree but it doesnt look good and why not respond to dispatch or request for back up? I agree I would like to hear her side


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## chaz90 (Jun 24, 2015)

There has to be way more to this story. If something sounds sensationalized and inflated, there likely is some kind of exaggeration going on. Let's see what the investigation discovers. They have far more information than we do and will hopefully make the right decision.


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## RocketMedic (Jun 24, 2015)

Looks pretty clear-cut to me. "I don't wanna do CPR" is not "scene safety concern."


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## squirrel15 (Jun 24, 2015)

There is so much missing from this article... I'm curious as to what her partner had to say. Because he chose to not respond also, when if they were that close easily could've made it on scene on foot to do cpr but also chose not to. Interested to hear the reasoning behind not responding


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## Carlos Danger (Jun 24, 2015)

RocketMedic said:


> Looks pretty clear-cut to me. "I don't wanna do CPR" is not "scene safety concern."


And you know for sure that's what she actually told the dispatcher?

And you know she didn't give any other reasons that somehow didn't make it into the news piece?


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## DrParasite (Jun 24, 2015)

Remi said:


> Very one-sided article - I'd like to hear the EMT's side of the story.
> 
> Maybe she knew something about that address that the dispatcher didn't. Were police on scene? What other information was given in the dispatch? Did she give dispatch a reason for not responding? These are all potentially important details that were left out of the news piece.


Agreed.

Let's not forget, this is Detroit: you don't get FD first responders to EMS calls.  You NEVER beat the PD to an EMS call.  and if you are in trouble, and request PD assistance, there is a high probability they won't make it to help you in under an hour.  They are just that understaffed.

As I read the news article, they responded to the scene, and staged until additional resources arrived.  Per the article, this was what she said: "I'm not about to be on no scene 10 minutes doing CPR, you know how these families get."  I interpret that to me she doesn't want to be doing CPR on this infant, have it not be successful after the first few minutes, and then have the family get violent.  Esp if both providers are concentrating on the baby, and not focusing on scene safety or a scene that is deteriorating.  But that's all conjecture, as we only know half the story, and the city isn't going to accept any blame if they can make a scapegoat.

That all being said, even if the medic was correct, she is going to be convicted by the court of public opinion.  Even if the address was a known crack den occupied by heavily armed ganged members, and staging would have been appropriate, her career is basically over, especially if she ever applies to a job outside of detroit.  

There has to be more to this story that we aren't being told.


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## Anjel (Jun 24, 2015)

Since I know many that work for DEMS....

The supervisor had repeatedly told her the scene was safe. This is not her first time refusing to go to a call. She quit years ago after refusing and then they allowed her to come back. 

They also have the option as an echo unit to just transport to the nearest ER. There is a hospital on every corner basically in Detroit. 

If you listen to the tape the supervisor tells her over and over to make scene, and she says no. She should be fired. Plain and simple.


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## Anjel (Jun 24, 2015)

LaceyA said:


> I agree but it doesnt look good and why not respond to dispatch or request for back up? I agree I would like to hear her side



There is no back up available in Detroit. They refuse to call the handful of private ambulances in the city. And all ALS rigs are always on calls. You hardly ever will get PD either.


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## Anjel (Jun 24, 2015)

Remi said:


> Very one-sided article - I'd like to hear the EMT's side of the story.
> 
> Maybe she knew something about that address that the dispatcher didn't. Were police on scene? What other information was given in the dispatch? Did she give dispatch a reason for not responding? These are all potentially important details that were left out of the news piece.



Her reason was..

"I don't want to be doing no CPR for 10 minutes. You know how these families get".


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## RedAirplane (Jun 24, 2015)

I keep hearing about the lack of units for public safety in Detroit -- and I wonder, why don't they call in mutual aid from private EMS, neighboring jurisdictions fire/PD, etc? Isn't that what mutual aid is for?


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## MonkeyArrow (Jun 24, 2015)

RedAirplane said:


> I keep hearing about the lack of units for public safety in Detroit -- and I wonder, why don't they call in mutual aid from private EMS, neighboring jurisdictions fire/PD, etc? Isn't that what mutual aid is for?


Mutual aid is supposed to be for times when your units are all occupied or on a very large call where help beyond the normal department's capacity is needed. Mutual aid is meant for the unusual circumstance, not the everyday type of short-staffing that Detroit has. No company/agency is willing to just come in and do another agency's job for no compensation because said agency is incapable of properly managing their assets.


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## Anjel (Jun 24, 2015)

There are 3-4 private services in the Detroit area that are willing to take the extra calls. Detroit just never calls them


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## RedAirplane (Jun 24, 2015)

Anjel said:


> There are 3-4 private services in the Detroit area that are willing to take the extra calls. Detroit just never calls them



What? Why? Are they afraid of ruining their own image? It's kind of late for that. But they could help themselves by lowering response times, and since the privates are willing to help...????????


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## Carlos Danger (Jun 24, 2015)

Anjel said:


> Her reason was..
> 
> "I don't want to be doing no CPR for 10 minutes. You know how these families get".


And you know that's the whole story because why?


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## Hockey (Jun 24, 2015)

She was just fired.

She has a history of doing this.  People that work with her have ALL said this doesn't surprise them.  She has done stuff like this in the past (not to this severity).  There is a long paper trail on her.  She works on the Romeo Unit so she doesn't have to lift, or transport.  She is the definition of lazy.  She is not a good person.  She's going to end up losing her license as well I'm almost certain.  She will never work in EMS again.

She was quoted saying that "you know families get"


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## EMT2015 (Jun 25, 2015)

I hope she loses her license and is never able to work in EMS again.  I can't understand why she was fired and then rehired...doesn't make any sense


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## Amelia (Jun 25, 2015)

Personally (as a mom I may be a little biased) if an EMT or P refused to help my baby "because youknow how these families get" I would strongly be considering legal advise on her personally. But, like I said, I could be biased... And a bit of a Mama Bear.


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## LaceyA (Jun 25, 2015)

Amelia said:


> Personally (as a mom I may be a little biased) if an EMT or P refused to help my baby "because youknow how these families get" I would strongly be considering legal advise on her personally. But, like I said, I could be biased... And a bit of a Mama Bear.



I think i would be the same way! My deal is this was a baby a child and how could someone just say oo I dont want to help, It just makes me sick! I read the investatgation report and wow just wow... we all see bad things and we all do thing we may not want to but this come on! Does any one want to ever have to do CPR on a child or baby no beacuse its hard emotionally but we do it to help save lives and this is OUR JOB!! Even if i wasnt an EMT I would do any thing for any child that needs help... I guess thats the human and Mom in me....


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## Carlos Danger (Jun 25, 2015)

LaceyA said:


> I think i would be the same way! My deal is this was a baby a child and how could someone just say oo I dont want to help, It just makes me sick!





Amelia said:


> Personally (as a mom I may be a little biased) if an EMT or P refused to help my baby "because youknow how these families get" I would strongly be considering legal advise on her personally. But, like I said, I could be biased... And a bit of a Mama Bear.



Sure, BUT......if you (or others in your home) make the responders feel physically threatened.....what do you expect?


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## Amelia (Jun 25, 2015)

Remi said:


> Sure, BUT......if you (or others in your home) make the responders feel physically threatened.....what do you expect?



No, but face value, if she didnt go for the sole purpose of not wanting to, Id flip out.


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## Amelia (Jun 25, 2015)

Plus the transcription said that she blatently refused, she has dine this before, and she even drove the ambulance on the street and parked.


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## Carlos Danger (Jun 25, 2015)

Maybe she's completely negligent. I have no idea - I don't know her and I wasn't there.

I'm just saying, you can't take a news article at face value....and there are times when a unit is completely justified in refusing to respond.


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## Amelia (Jun 25, 2015)

Remi said:


> Maybe she's completely negligent. I have no idea - I don't know her and I wasn't there.
> 
> I'm just saying, you can't take a news article at face value....and there are times when a is completely justified in refusing to respond.


I absolutely agree! Personal safety #1 prority. But in this case she flat out went against dispatch and supervisor orders.


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## RedAirplane (Jun 26, 2015)

The few times I've been in the news, it told a total ******** falsehood of the thing I was doing. So I'm skeptical of news.

"[RedAirplane] and his two children enjoy shopping at Store XYZ..."
Really? I was like 12 at the time of the article. I guess I must have gotten pretty busy pretty fast.


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## Handsome Robb (Jun 26, 2015)

Remi said:


> Maybe she's completely negligent. I have no idea - I don't know her and I wasn't there.
> 
> I'm just saying, you can't take a news article at face value....and there are times when a unit is completely justified in refusing to respond.



I said the same thing on a few different threads on Facebook and was a sultry crucified. Called heartless, told I shouldn't be in EMS, threatened, told I didn't know what I was talking about because I'd never worked a pedi code (that one made me laugh because I'm approaching 10 dead kids in 3 years as a medic with ~75% as working codes.

I don't agree with her actions and I don't think she should be employed or have a certification after reading the official report which was released after the internal investigation was complete but all my posts were prior to that and even after it's release its still a valid point. 



Amelia said:


> I absolutely agree! Personal safety #1 prority. But in this case she flat out went against dispatch and supervisor orders.



I've been ordered by dispatch to enter a scene because my cocaine and heroin OD patient was in cardiac arrest after originally being told to stage because there was a loud, violent sounding disturbance in the background of the call. Once he arrested I was told to enter by the dispatcher and the communications supervisor. I asked if PD was on scene and was told no. I requested that PD upgrade to a code 3 response and advised I was continuing to stage but would enter with PD rather than waiting for them to clear it then call their dispatch and their dispatch call my dispatch and my dispatch then relay to me that the scene was clear. 

PD showed up, we went in with them and the LEO ended up drawing down on someone. Somehow in his coked out rage he was smart enough to listen to the LEOs commands and dropped the knife he had otherwise he was real close to being shot. Had we entered when the patient arrested and we were "ordered" to enter the scene it would've gotten real interesting real quick. Even having an armed LEO I was really close to hitting my panic button to get more lethal cover there ASAP. 

Just an example, granted from the report it doesn't sound like there was any indication of a hostile scene and she wasn't staging due to safety concerns.


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## LaceyA (Jun 26, 2015)

Remi said:


> Sure, BUT......if you (or others in your home) make the responders feel physically threatened.....what do you expect?



How does she know if she hasnt even made the scene? IDK none of us were there so we really dont know what all went on, the history or anything. I do Think the department did the right thing in letting her go...


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## Amelia (Jun 26, 2015)

Handsome Robb said:


> I said the same thing on a few different threads on Facebook and was a sultry crucified. Called heartless, told I shouldn't be in EMS, threatened, told I didn't know what I was talking about because I'd never worked a pedi code (that one made me laugh because I'm approaching 10 dead kids in 3 years as a medic with ~75% as working codes.
> 
> I don't agree with her actions and I don't think she should be employed or have a certification after reading the official report which was released after the internal investigation was complete but all my posts were prior to that and even after it's release its still a valid point.
> 
> ...




Thats the exact point: "There was no indication of a hostile situation and wasnt staging due to safety concerns." That is exactly it. If it were my baby, this ***** would have a world of a mess of a Mama to deal with.


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## DrParasite (Apr 21, 2017)

DETROIT — A former emergency medical technician has been charged after medical response was delayed to a Detroit home where an 8-month-old girl was having trouble breathing and later died.

The Wayne County prosecutor's office says 45-year-old Ann Marie Thomas was arraigned Wednesday on a willful neglect of duty charge.

https://www.ems1.com/lawsuit/articl...-charged-with-refusing-to-help-baby-who-died/


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## phideux (Apr 28, 2017)

Amelia said:


> I absolutely agree! Personal safety #1 prority. But in this case she flat out went against dispatch and supervisor orders.



Were either the Dispatcher or Supervisor that were giving the orders on the scene to know that it was safe?????



LaceyA said:


> How does she know if she hasnt even made the scene? IDK none of us were there so we really dont know what all went on, the history or anything. I do Think the department did the right thing in letting her go...



The worst time to try and figure out scene safety is after you make the scene.

I wasn't there so I don't know squat about what went down. How many of you posting here have actually worked 911 in an actual "Hood"? Not the little one road stretch on the edge of town where a couple of idiots sling some small time dope, but the actual "Hood". Million plus person areas with square miles of low income housing where 85% of the people don't work, and most have been on public assistance for several generations.
I've seen it where there is a crowd of family on scene and they don't like the fact that they don't think you are doing something right to help whoever you are there to help. You'll get some start screaming and yelling and someone will fall out, then 2 others will be mad at you cause now you need to get someone to help the one who fell out, then that starts winding up the guys in the family and it can get ugly.


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## DrParasite (Apr 28, 2017)

phideux said:


> How many of you posting here have actually worked 911 in an actual "Hood"? Not the little one road stretch on the edge of town where a couple of idiots sling some small time dope, but the actual "Hood". Million plus person areas with square miles of low income housing where 85% of the people don't work, and most have been on public assistance for several generations.


I have.  And most times, I haven't had PD on scene before me.  It's the nature of the business, especially if you work in the "hood."

There is absolutely nothing to indicate this is an unsafe scene.  In fact, if you indeed do work in the hood, you would know that poor people get sick, and more often than not, all they want you to do is help their loved one.  I can assure you that if she arrived to help, the family would have done whatever they could to make her job easier.  Especially with a premature child who was now in cardiac arrest.

There are several things that you only do in the hood that you don't do in the burbs.  not assisting a sick patient is not one of them.  not making patient contact on a pediatric cardiac arrest is not one of them.  and you still do your damn job, regardless of if you are working in the sticks or the ghetto.  

I am hoping she ends up in jail for her actions, but I do think that her actions are a symptom of an even larger problem within detroit EMS


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## phideux (Apr 28, 2017)

DrParasite said:


> I have.  And most times, I haven't had PD on scene before me.  It's the nature of the business, especially if you work in the "hood."
> 
> There is absolutely nothing to indicate this is an unsafe scene.  In fact, if you indeed do work in the hood, you would know that poor people get sick, and more often than not, all they want you to do is help their loved one.  I can assure you that if she arrived to help, the family would have done whatever they could to make her job easier.  Especially with a premature child who was now in cardiac arrest.
> 
> ...




I agree with everything you say, and still stick to the fact that I wasn't there, and don't know the territory there. There were times working the Hood where I went in no problem without backup, there are also times where a certain address or neighborhood coming through dispatch means I ain't going in without the Calvary. 
Like you say, regardless of where you are working you still do your job, sometimes doing that job means staying put until it is safe to do your job. The Dispatcher sitting in a cubicle miles away doesn't know if the scene is safe, neither does the Supervisor sitting in his cubicle or Fly car offscene.

Had a call one time with a Pediatric death, not even a really bad part of town, after midnight the 3yo "snuck out" past the 7 "adult" crackheads in the house who were watching him because Mamma was out "running errands". Showed up first to a really angry scene, grabbed the kid and GTF out of there. The angry scene followed to the ER where people got hurt and several were arrested. The poor kid was DRT, obviously, but I grabbed him just to be able to leave the scene with my and my partners butts. Got in trouble for messing up a crime scene.


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## DrParasite (Apr 28, 2017)

phideux said:


> The Dispatcher sitting in a cubicle miles away doesn't know if the scene is safe, neither does the Supervisor sitting in his cubicle or Fly car offscene.


exactly.  until you make it on scene, you don't know it's unsafe, unless there is a reason for you to suspect it's unsafe (and based on everything that is reported, there wasn't).  there was your "typically" sick medical call.  you only know what you know based on what dispatch says, based on what they are told.  Go in and do your job.  don't say you aren't going to because you would have to do CPR for 10 minutes.





phideux said:


> Had a call one time with a Pediatric death, not even a really bad part of town, after midnight the 3yo "snuck out" past the 7 "adult" crackheads in the house who were watching him because Mamma was out "running errands". Showed up first to a really angry scene, grabbed the kid and GTF out of there. The angry scene followed to the ER where people got hurt and several were arrested. The poor kid was DRT, obviously, but I grabbed him just to be able to leave the scene with my and my partners butts. Got in trouble for messing up a crime scene.


Did you refuse to go on the job?  no.   you did your job, found it to bad, and GTF out of there, which was exactly the right thing to do. 

The angry scene followed you to the ER (which happens in the hood, no argument there), so I'm hoping you called ahead and had the PD waiting for your in the ambulance bay.  Let the cops deal with the angry scene, and tell anyone who give you crap about messing up a crime scene FU, because if it's a choice between a dead kid and messed up crime scene, and a dead kid, two dead or injured providers, and a pristine crime scene, which do you think is preferable?

If she had gotten there and bailed because the family got hostile, I would agree with her.  If it has been a reported violent crime, or potential for violent crime, and she felt the assailant was still there, ok, I can see staging.  If she pulled up to the house, and people with weapons came charging at the ambulance, sure.  But that wasn't the case.

You might disagree, but based on all the information that was reported, she deserved to lose her job, her cert, and should be in jail for a willful neglect of duty.


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## EMS HOT BOX (Apr 29, 2017)

Like EMS in many urban environments Detroit was top notch even when the EEOC mandate took effect. I worked alongside good men from the ghettos who came to our jobs & did a good days work & many of them are friends of mine who I break bread with as if they were my own. The problem came when the Liberal enablers of shiftless ghetto slackers shoved Affirmative Action down the collective throats of the PD, FD & EMS. This criminal is a product of that failed strategy.


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## EpiEMS (Apr 29, 2017)

Uh, @EMS HOT BOX, what evidence do you have for that? I would caution you that the inflammatory language is not a good way to get your point across. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## EMS HOT BOX (Apr 29, 2017)

There isn't one word, phrase or statement in any part of my post that even "you" could deem inflammatory, racist, sexist, homophobic, denigrating, salacious, libelous or what "you" would stoop to deem politically incorrect. And you demand that I must provide "you" with evidence of what & for what or who? You? I have in no way attempted to make a point, like "you" or maybe not like "you" I, like many other members here just stated my opinion. So don't go mistaking me for some whole other man.


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## Handsome Robb (Apr 29, 2017)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DrParasite (Mar 2, 2018)

*Former Detroit EMT found guilty of willful neglect of duty in 2015 infant death case*

"A former Detroit Fire Department EMT has been found guilty of willful neglect of duty in connection to the 2015 death of an 8-month-old girl.

Ann Marie Thomas was fired from DFD after the department said she refused to help the baby May 30, 2015 while she was on duty just minutes away from the home in the 19900 block of Glastonbury. An ambulance eventually got the baby to a hospital. She was revived but died the next morning."

but here is the weird part:

"Moreover, the infant's mother was charged with homicide and child abuse in this case. The mother, 26-year-old Janee Wright-Trussell, told Local 4 she can't believe she was charged before the EMT. She denies any wrong-doing. "

read the rest at https://www.clickondetroit.com/news...ful-neglect-of-duty-in-2015-infant-death-case


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## AZEMSPRO (Mar 7, 2018)

Mothers Charges and Examiner's findings:
https://www.clickondetroit.com/news...ath-case-where-detroit-emt-refused-to-respond


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## TheEleventhHour (Sep 23, 2018)

Why work so hard for something just to not care to throw it away? People are wild.


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