# Woman laying on ground at festival



## Amelia (Jul 26, 2015)

Hey guys- a woman 65-ish is laying down in the shade in a weird spot, like between two jumpy houses. Peole are there: shes talking, able to sit upright when requested, no complaints of pain or dizziness- a lay person ran off and got water and ice, all the mean time she is saying "im fine, im fine." I had told the son (adult) that if she gets cramps or starts acting a bit funny to take her in, first aid came shortly after. But not on duty, is "im fine" a refusal? Some he drank the ice water... First aid did end up calling 911 thank goodness. 

I hope this makes sense...


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## STXmedic (Jul 26, 2015)

I have no idea what you're getting at. Are you just asking if the words "I'm fine" mean it's a refusal?


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## Tigger (Jul 26, 2015)

You aren't working, therefore you can't and have no need to do a "refusal." Just because you're an EMT and talk to someone does not mean you are obligated in any way to look after them. 

Also people can lie where they like as far as I am concerned. If someone says "I'm fine," that'll do.


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## NomadicMedic (Jul 26, 2015)

You're not on duty. Whether or not it's a refusal had nothing to do with you. 

Listen to the lizard.


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## Amelia (Jul 26, 2015)

Ive always been a person to run to people who needed help, even as a kid. That was just a bit fuzzy to me. I just have to remind myself to leave well enough alone. Im learning. Please be patient with me.


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## Tigger (Jul 26, 2015)

Which is fine. But how would you even obtain a refusal? You are not working under a physician's license nor did you really even lay hands on the patient.


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## COmedic17 (Jul 26, 2015)

Sure, make sure she's ok so you don't need to contact EMS to assist her, but you, yourself, can't be EMS. You can't practice medicine off shift. So you don't need a refusal. Your not a medical provider. 


I once took my daughter to a pumpkin patch that had a bounce pad type thing and she fell off. She was fine, and was trying to get back up and jump again. Some bystander ran up and explained to me she needed to go to the hospital to "rule out a concussion", and I needed to listen to him because "he was an EMT and a professional at this kind of stuff" and kept arguing with me despite me repeating that she was fine ( she was up and jumping again at this point). It was the most obnoxious thing ever. 

"Not my circus, not my monkeys".


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## CALEMT (Jul 26, 2015)

We get these types of calls for the music festivals. Of course I'm on duty working as a EMT so theres that, but 99% someone laying down in the shade is sleeping. We wake them up and ask if their alright they say "I'm fine" and I don't do paperwork. I didn't touch the person, no vitals, its simply like a "welfare check" type of situation. We simply go available with no medical aid needed. No problemo. 

Now for your situation like others have said, you're off duty and not working so why would you need to do a refusal? Do you carry PCR's with you everywhere you go? Even so your not on duty you're not a medical provider so therefor you don't need a refusal. Also if you're off duty at a festival why are you jumping medical calls? Shouldn't you be enjoying the festival?


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## Amelia (Jul 26, 2015)

No, it was nothing like that. I wanted to make sure that she didnt need 911. I guess I was thinking too much again.


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## chaz90 (Jul 26, 2015)

Just remember that becoming an EMT doesn't have any bearing on your actions when not at work. You have no additional obligations to do anything more than anyone else does. If I see someone lying on the ground in an unusual area, I might ask if they're okay. If they answer yes, I'd move on with my day. If they answer no, I'd ask what I can do to help and contact 911 if necessary. End of story.


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## medichopeful (Jul 26, 2015)

Amelia said:


> No, it was nothing like that. I wanted to make sure that she didnt need 911. I guess I was thinking too much again.



Very, very few people actually _need_ 911.  Relax, have fun with life, don't stress over stuff like this.


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## exodus (Jul 26, 2015)

CALEMT said:


> We get these types of calls for the music festivals. Of course I'm on duty working as a EMT so theres that, but 99% someone laying down in the shade is sleeping. We wake them up and ask if their alright they say "I'm fine" and I don't do paperwork. I didn't touch the person, no vitals, its simply like a "welfare check" type of situation. We simply go available with no medical aid needed. No problemo.
> 
> Now for your situation like others have said, you're off duty and not working so why would you need to do a refusal? Do you carry PCR's with you everywhere you go? Even so your not on duty you're not a medical provider so therefor you don't need a refusal. Also if you're off duty at a festival why are you jumping medical calls? Shouldn't you be enjoying the festival?


My favorites are the "**** you, I'm fine." And then they try to get up to walk away and the fall over.... Uhh, Patrol 4, start a cart to the do lab.  My favorite was two females who downed a handle of fireball and the guy they were with ditched them in the parking lot. We woke them up and they both said, "We're fineeeeee." but all slurring to hell and unable to stay awake.  Ever seen two unconscious's on a cart?... I'm glad they were both skinny, we got the straps around both of them. (Yes they were both ALOC)


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## DesertMedic66 (Jul 26, 2015)

exodus said:


> My favorites are the "**** you, I'm fine." And then they try to get up to walk away and the fall over.... Uhh, Patrol 4, start a cart to the do lab.  My favorite was two females who downed a handle of fireball and the guy they were with ditched them in the parking lot. We woke them up and they both said, "We're fineeeeee." but all slurring to hell and unable to stay awake.  Ever seen two unconscious's on a cart?... I'm glad they were both skinny, we got the straps around both of them. (Yes they were both ALOC)


Ooh how much I don't miss working those concerts haha


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## exodus (Jul 26, 2015)

DesertMedic66 said:


> Ooh how much I don't miss working those concerts haha


Haha, I loved it. Hopefully I can do it again.  I'm still not sure how I was able to get onto it since I worked back half of the week too.


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## NomadicMedic (Jul 26, 2015)

Working a festival and being an attendee are two very different things.


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## DesertMedic66 (Jul 26, 2015)

exodus said:


> Haha, I loved it. Hopefully I can do it again.  I'm still not sure how I was able to get onto it since I worked back half of the week too.


It's easier to back fill a 911 unit then to cover the concerts. There are a decent number of employees who will not work the event but will gladly back fill a unit.


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## CALEMT (Jul 26, 2015)

DesertMedic66 said:


> It's easier to back fill a 911 unit then to cover the concerts. There are a decent number of employees who will not work the event but will gladly back fill a unit.



I remember working Coachella weekend 2 then doing a 7 day stretch backfilling units. That was a very long week.


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## RedAirplane (Jul 28, 2015)

If you start any sort of assessment, my understanding is then you have a duty to act. 

Namely, if you observe pale, cool, diaphoretic skin while talking to them about why they are lying down, you are now obligated to follow through. 

On the other hand, if you just walk past someone who looks a bit ill and for whatever reason don't ask him anything, you're safe. 

This varies. In some places having medical training necessitates duty to act. 

And I'm not a lawyer but that's my understanding. 

Sounds like you did fine.


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## Tigger (Jul 28, 2015)

RedAirplane said:


> If you start any sort of assessment, my understanding is then you have a duty to act.
> 
> Namely, if you observe pale, cool, diaphoretic skin while talking to them about why they are lying down, you are now obligated to follow through.
> 
> ...


There are very few states that have any sort of provision for requiring off duty providers to render aid. Assuming this is not the case, as a good samaritan you can do whatever you please provided you are not acting with blatant recklessness. You can observe someone actively dying and do nothing if that's what floats your boat. You can assess them and leave no stone unturned with your thorough evaluation, and then walk away. 

You cannot have a duty to act unless you are on duty (save for those few states). We have a sticky regarding individual state variances.


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## RedAirplane (Jul 28, 2015)

Tigger said:


> There are very few states that have any sort of provision for requiring off duty providers to render aid. Assuming this is not the case, as a good samaritan you can do whatever you please provided you are not acting with blatant recklessness. You can observe someone actively dying and do nothing if that's what floats your boat. You can assess them and leave no stone unturned with your thorough evaluation, and then walk away.
> 
> You cannot have a duty to act unless you are on duty (save for those few states). We have a sticky regarding individual state variances.



Interesting. I was told if you start, you have to finish. But usually you are not required to start off duty.


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## DesertMedic66 (Jul 28, 2015)

RedAirplane said:


> Interesting. I was told if you start, you have to finish. But usually you are not required to start off duty.


If you are on duty, yes. If you are off duty, no


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## AcadianExplorer1910 (Aug 23, 2015)

Amelia said:


> Hey guys- a woman 65-ish is laying down in the shade in a weird spot, like between two jumpy houses. Peole are there: shes talking, able to sit upright when requested, no complaints of pain or dizziness- a lay person ran off and got water and ice, all the mean time she is saying "im fine, im fine." I had told the son (adult) that if she gets cramps or starts acting a bit funny to take her in, first aid came shortly after. But not on duty, is "im fine" a refusal? Some he drank the ice water... First aid did end up calling 911 thank goodness.
> 
> I hope this makes sense...


hmm this is weird as a explorer i work at festivals and I'm somewhat trained and i am CPR certified. To me if the person says she is fine i guess she doesn't but yeah if she starts feeling sick or worse i would check her out!


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