# Beware the little old woman!



## mcrs41 (Jan 2, 2009)

We were called to a local nursing home for a possible broken hip and arrive to find a 97 year old woman with all the signs of a broken hip, turned foot and bump on thigh.  Only she didn't want anything to do with us helping her.  I was at her head when it came time for us to move her to the stretcher and she reached up and grabbed my throat with a death grip!  I was the lucky one and drove while 2 others assisted in the back.  She managed to break one of their glasses and gave the other a few scratches on the cheek.  She was giving us such a hard time when we were transferring her to the hospital bed, she landed with a little bump.  Well, that put the hip back in place!  It had been a replacement that had popped out.  She still didn't want help, but the nurse moved in time to miss being hit and the patient hit her arm on the railing.  This must have hurt, she pulled her arm in and stopped fighting!


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## FF894 (Jan 2, 2009)

Kidnapper h34r:


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## Arkymedic (Jan 3, 2009)

I really do not know what to say to this...  Did the nursing home have a medical power of attorney over the patient? It sounds like the patient was CAO x 4, is that correct? From the way this is written I must agree with FF894 and say that this easily sounds like kidnapping...:unsure:



mcrs41 said:


> We were called to a local nursing home for a possible broken hip and arrive to find a 97 year old woman with all the signs of a broken hip, turned foot and bump on thigh. Only she didn't want anything to do with us helping her. I was at her head when it came time for us to move her to the stretcher and she reached up and grabbed my throat with a death grip! I was the lucky one and drove while 2 others assisted in the back. She managed to break one of their glasses and gave the other a few scratches on the cheek. She was giving us such a hard time when we were transferring her to the hospital bed, she landed with a little bump. Well, that put the hip back in place! It had been a replacement that had popped out. She still didn't want help, but the nurse moved in time to miss being hit and the patient hit her arm on the railing. This must have hurt, she pulled her arm in and stopped fighting!


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## mcrs41 (Jan 4, 2009)

Medical power of attorney (daughter) determined that she was to go to the hospital.


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## FF/EMT Sam (Jan 7, 2009)

mcrs41 said:


> Medical power of attorney (daughter) determined that she was to go to the hospital.




Can the daughter override the patient if the patient is A&Ox4?


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## Sasha (Jan 7, 2009)

Where does it show she's a/ox4?

I didn't think people got power of attorneys if they were a/ox4.


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## Epi-do (Jan 7, 2009)

FF/EMT Sam said:


> Can the daughter override the patient if the patient is A&Ox4?




It may vary from state to state, depending upon how laws are written, but I am not sure.  I know here (IN) that if a patient is A&Ox3/4, that you can't force them to go, even if there is a medical POA.  



Sasha said:


> I didn't think people got power of attorneys if they were a/ox4.



There are plenty of other reasons to have a medical POA other than being altered.  Just like any other POA, they can be written to cover a specific time period or event, or they can be worded such that they are in effect until revoked.  However, that typically does not give the POA the authority to over-ride the patient if the patient is able to make their own decisions.  The legal document will spell out when the POA can and cannot make decisions for the patient.

It is also important to realize that sometimes one person may be the medical POA and a second person may have a financial POA, or a POA for some other entirely different reason, for the same person.  That is just one of the many reasons why it is important to ask to see the paperwork if someone claims to be POA.


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## MedicPrincess (Jan 7, 2009)

As someone who has taken 3 refusals from Nursing Home patients.....Its not an easy task to accomplish, especially when the NH staff is standing there with an order from a physician to send the pt out and I am not really incline to wrestle a CAOx4 person, regardless of age, to the stretcher under most circumstances (see most, that allows for the exceptions).

Now, WHY was she being so combative?  Was it because she is a dementia patient?  Did she just not like you period?  Was there another way to get her to the stretcher, besides fighting with a 97yo woman?  Perhaps enlist the help of a favorite staff member at the NH?

Was she otherwise CAOx4, able to understand her possible injury and implications of refusing?  If she was, it would fall under that kidnapping problem for me.


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## oneluv79 (Jan 7, 2009)

mcrs41 said:


> We were called to a local nursing home for a possible broken hip and arrive to find a 97 year old woman with all the signs of a broken hip, turned foot and bump on thigh.  Only she didn't want anything to do with us helping her.  I was at her head when it came time for us to move her to the stretcher and she reached up and grabbed my throat with a death grip!  I was the lucky one and drove while 2 others assisted in the back.  She managed to break one of their glasses and gave the other a few scratches on the cheek.  She was giving us such a hard time when we were transferring her to the hospital bed, she landed with a little bump.  Well, that put the hip back in place!  It had been a replacement that had popped out.  She still didn't want help, but the nurse moved in time to miss being hit and the patient hit her arm on the railing.  This must have hurt, she pulled her arm in and stopped fighting!





They will put it on you... I took a pretty good right-hook to the chest from an elderly lady a little over a month ago, thank goodness she was like 4ft. 9.....that would have been a great shiner.... :lol:


oneluv79


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## RESQ_5_1 (Jan 7, 2009)

I'm gonna give the benefit of the doubt and say that she was possibly a dementia or Alzheimer's pt. Otherwise, I would never take a combative pt anywhere. At least not without trying to remedy whatever has them upset in the first place. We sign people off at the lodge all the time.


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## WiFi_Cowgirl (Jan 20, 2009)

As far as I'm concerned, if they aren't physically capable of walking away from me.. or if they're living in a nursing home. Then they aren't capable of taking care of themselves, therefore surrender the right to refuse. If you have to physically restrain them, then thats what you need to do. Clearly, if they have a life threatening medical condition, and they don't want medical help and would rather die, then they aren't in their right mind. Therefore, not able to make a medically necessary decision, which we have to assume they would normally grant permission for!


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## JPINFV (Jan 20, 2009)

WiFi_Cowgirl said:


> Then they aren't capable of taking care of themselves, therefore surrender the right to refuse.



So if someone is in a nursing home for rehabilitation, then you are willing to kidnap them because they "surrendered [their] right to refuse"? If a person is no longer capable of making their own decisions then there needs to be a conservatorship created.


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## WiFi_Cowgirl (Jan 20, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> So if someone is in a nursing home for rehabilitation, then you are willing to kidnap them because they "surrendered [their] right to refuse"? If a person is no longer capable of making their own decisions then there needs to be a conservatorship created.



Well, their right to refuse ended, when they called 911. It's not kidnapping, boy, it's preventative measures. If we allow them to refuse, what are we saying to those others that wish to refuse? People will be calling 911 left and right, just refusing.


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## triemal04 (Jan 20, 2009)

Wow...I haven't been this shocked here for awhile.  And that's saying something.  Congratulations on that.  Now tell me, how many people have you kidnapped in your career?  How many do you plan on kidnapping?  What will your defence be when you are sued and potentially brought up on criminal charges?  Just some questions you may want to have answers for.

And I sometimes forget why EMS is viewed as a bunch of unprofessional nuts looking for a good time...

And on that note:  :nosoupfortroll:


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## JPINFV (Jan 20, 2009)

That's simply unfounded. Any person who is alert, orientated, and understands the ramifications of their choices can choose to refuse medical care and transportation as they see fit. It's their body, not yours. Forcing treatment on a patient who has has exercised their right to refuse care is battery and transporting that patient is kidnapping. Short of a handful of special situations (altered due to disease or drugs, specific psychiatric/neurological conditions, etc), there is no reason to not respect a patients health care choice.


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## marineman (Jan 20, 2009)

WiFi_Cowgirl said:


> Well, their right to refuse ended, when they called 911. It's not kidnapping, boy, it's preventative measures. If we allow them to refuse, what are we saying to those others that wish to refuse? People will be calling 911 left and right, just refusing.



My goodness, I hope this doesn't come off as a personal attack since that's not allowed but after reading several of your posts what are you thinking? Do you seriously have training at any level of EMS? Banter like that is giving us Wisco's a bad name. A patient absolutely has a right to refuse no matter what they called 911 for end of story. If they are deemed by me during my initial sizeup to be A/Ox4, and not under the influence of any drugs or alcohol I could care less what their chief complaint is, it's false imprisonment, kidnapping, assault/battery and I'm sure a half way decent lawyer could round out a dozen more charges against you. 

I will continue reading the news paper to see your jumpsuit picture on the front page and will begin applying for any EMS position you may hold very soon as it's only a matter of time and that time period seems to get shorter with each post you make.


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## Sasha (Jan 20, 2009)

WiFi_Cowgirl said:


> As far as I'm concerned, if they aren't physically capable of walking away from me.. or if they're living in a nursing home. Then they aren't capable of taking care of themselves, therefore surrender the right to refuse. If you have to physically restrain them, then thats what you need to do. *Clearly, if they have a life threatening medical condition, and they don't want medical help and would rather die, then they aren't in their right mind.* Therefore, not able to make a medically necessary decision, which we have to assume they would normally grant permission for!



How is that possible when you don't believe in mental illness?


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## Sasha (Jan 20, 2009)

WiFi_Cowgirl said:


> Well, their right to refuse ended, when they called 911. It's not kidnapping, boy, it's preventative measures. If we allow them to refuse, what are we saying to those others that wish to refuse? People will be calling 911 left and right, just refusing.



A lot of times nursing homes call 911 or transport to the ER with out even notifying the patient. So They didn't call 911, so how does that work into your twisted little theory?


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## katgrl2003 (Jan 20, 2009)

WiFi_Cowgirl said:


> Well, their right to refuse ended, when they called 911. It's not kidnapping, boy, it's preventative measures. If we allow them to refuse, what are we saying to those others that wish to refuse? People will be calling 911 left and right, just refusing.



What about the people that had 911 called for them?


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## NebraskanPrincess (Jan 23, 2009)

Speaking of old ladies, I watched an alzheimers patient kick the crap outta the two big dudes I was riding along with on my service during training.  I'd worked at nursing homes for five years, so I asked if they'd like my to intervene, but they told me to sit back and watch.  I did so quite joyfully and even more so when they called for police backup.

We had two city police, one sheriff, and one state patrol show up to the nursing home facility to back up my two partners.  All of the officers laughed so hard they nearly started crying.  In fact, two had to leave and walk down the hall to muffle their laughter.  

Apparently, the woman thought one of the city officers was her son and she latched around his waist with a grip stronger than the punches that had been beating heads in moments before.  His duty belt had to be removed in order to keep the scene safe!  She was quite compliant after that and he ended up having to stay with her in the hospital for three hours.  Tee hee hee...

I can't even remember why we went on her anymore.  All I remember is the look on my instructor/firefighter/emt's face as he got beat up by the 100-year-old.  Good times.


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## Arkymedic (Jan 23, 2009)

Nice Sasha. Very nice. B)



Sasha said:


> How is that possible when you don't believe in mental illness?


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## Arkymedic (Jan 23, 2009)

Wow...just wow. I have watched several of the posts you have written and wow. I would be curious to see what would happen if your employer understood how you really feel and what you post here:sad::excl:



WiFi_Cowgirl said:


> As far as I'm concerned, if they aren't physically capable of walking away from me.. or if they're living in a nursing home. Then they aren't capable of taking care of themselves, therefore surrender the right to refuse. If you have to physically restrain them, then thats what you need to do. Clearly, if they have a life threatening medical condition, and they don't want medical help and would rather die, then they aren't in their right mind. Therefore, not able to make a medically necessary decision, which we have to assume they would normally grant permission for!


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## karaya (Jan 23, 2009)

Say Ark, I wouldn't sweat it too much what that WiFi girl is saying. She apparently was banned yesterday. I do however see the point you were trying to make.


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## Arkymedic (Jan 23, 2009)

It just scares and saddens me that there really are people treating patients that way...



karaya said:


> Say Ark, I wouldn't sweat it too much what that WiFi girl is saying. She apparently was banned yesterday. I do however see the point you were trying to make.


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## marineman (Jan 23, 2009)

What scares me is that she's in my state... what if I become her patient some day?


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## Arkymedic (Jan 23, 2009)

I guess you better hope you don't have a mental emergency or attempted suicide...you might get a stern talking to.


marineman said:


> What scares me is that she's in my state... what if I become her patient some day?


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## marineman (Jan 23, 2009)

At least I'll know that it's not a disease and I'm just extra dumb for wanting to do that stuff to myself, sure boosts confidence in a time of need


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## Arkymedic (Jan 23, 2009)

Sure makes you feel confident and safe huh?



marineman said:


> At least I'll know that it's not a disease and I'm just extra dumb for wanting to do that stuff to myself, sure boosts confidence in a time of need


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