# Unions for EMS



## hoisanjai (Nov 27, 2011)

Well I live in Chicago, I worked a pretty good ambulance company they provide us with our 50 cent increase every year. We get gift cards and bonuses for certain holiday seasons. And now we are being targeted by National Emergency Medical Service Association. I am against unions by the way, I believe that they should be rid of because the federal govt. put a lot of regulation in place to keep us fairly safe in the work place. I have spoke with certain employees that are for it. They think thay should get paid more, but Chicago have 10 ambulance companies and they all pay approximately the same. I am in nursing school atm and I will make more money by achieving a higher education. One person said they should make par with CFD. I think that statement is retarded. Anyways, all inputs welcome.

P.S. Typing on a cell phone is a hitch, but i felt like ranting.


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## Aidey (Nov 27, 2011)

Unions have their pros and cons. They aren't 100% about keeping people safe either. Most of what my union does is make sure the rules are being applied consistently, and help bargain for wages/benefits. It sounds like your employer is one of the better ones, other people are not always as lucky.


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## rbromme (Nov 27, 2011)

We just got rid of NEMSA.  Do some research on them.


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## truetiger (Nov 27, 2011)

Our FT employees are IAFF members...works out well.


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## hoisanjai (Nov 27, 2011)

rbromme said:


> We just got rid of NEMSA.  Do some research on them.



Unions to me means the company's management has failed. Unions tend to artificially increase wages. Unions tend to have fees therefore they are in it for the money. I already hate paying taxes, and now I don't want more money taken out of my paycheck. I myself am pro-business, and I believe that we are paid the amount base on the local wages and plus our profession is over saturated. We are so expendable, sorry but it's true.


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## bigbaldguy (Nov 27, 2011)

hoisanjai said:


> I am against unions by the way, I believe that they should be rid of because the federal govt. put a lot of regulation in place to keep us fairly safe in the work place.



Google modern safety laws/regulations.


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## adamjh3 (Nov 28, 2011)

If you're happy with the way the company treats you, and you're management gives half a crap about you, don't go union.


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## DrParasite (Nov 28, 2011)

adamjh3 said:


> If you're happy with the way the company treats you, and you're management gives half a crap about you, don't go union.


sound advice.  

Unions DON'T always mean more money, especially in your take home pay.  Also remember, you can want to make $100 an hour, but unless your employer agrees to pay you $100 an hour no union will make a difference.  now if you can negotiate that and management agrees to it, more power to you.

the biggest advantage unions provide is someone to push back against management when management tries to screw you.  Ie, you have a 10 mile response for a call, and your supervisor is writing you up for not getting there in the "under 11 minute" standard.

Or if you are supposed to get a uniform allowance, and suddenly management makes the decision that you are to pay for all uniforms out of your own pocket.

or if your ambulance is unsafe to drive, and your boss says if you don't accept the truck you are terminated for refusing the job.

Plus, too many ambulance companies are looking to cut corners at the expense of the employees.  Having a union can be beneficial, but if you are going to be fired for breaking a rule, the only thing a union will do is ensure that you are being fired according to the rulebook.

BTW, look at http://www.iaep.org/ http://www.nemsausa.org/ IAFF (although  in my experience, if you aren't Fire based or firefighter, they will take your money and smile, but you won't get any support from other locals, and if they have a FD issue somewhere else, all the resources they promise  you will vanish in a blink of an eye) and see what other locals might apply (my agency has the Teamsters as our union).


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## Missedcue (Nov 29, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> sound advice.
> 
> Unions DON'T always mean more money, especially in your take home pay.  Also remember, you can want to make $100 an hour, but unless your employer agrees to pay you $100 an hour no union will make a difference.  now if you can negotiate that and management agrees to it, more power to you.
> 
> ...



Agreed. I'm a teamster and sadly with my company it's necessary or I'd be riding a bicycle to calls. Remember the union is another bureaucratic entity that's adding more red tape and more politically minded individuals into your company. Everyone has an angle. 

Like others have been saying, if you like the way things are being run, don't go union.


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## socalmedic (Nov 30, 2011)

I am IAEP and love it. as stated a union wont keep you from getting fired, they will only make sure the company is following the rules. I make $5 more an hour than the other ambulance company in my area which is not union, I also have a much nicer 401k and medical benefits. I think it is all worth is for the $40/month that i pay in union dues.


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## bigdogems (Nov 30, 2011)

I previously worked for a company and was one of the people responsible for bringing in IAEP. Was even VP of the local..... I quickly discovered that they were completely useless. The national would constantly file charges that would never be upheld. Our work conditions didn't improve and as was said above, if the employer refuses to give raises your not going to get them. Now this wasn't entirely the nationals fault. One thing that you have to remember is that a union is only as strong as its members. Unless you can get everyone on board to attend meetings and show up to vote your not going to get anywhere. If most of the people are happy and management treats you well they should have no problem keeping them out. Many times the talk of a union coming in will prompt a raise


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## systemet (Nov 30, 2011)

socalmedic said:


> I am IAEP and love it. as stated a union wont keep you from getting fired, they will only make sure the company is following the rules. I make $5 more an hour than the other ambulance company in my area which is not union, I also have a much nicer 401k and medical benefits. I think it is all worth is for the $40/month that i pay in union dues.



Sure, but what if I want to work less than 8 hours a month ?


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## ah2388 (Nov 30, 2011)

The reality of the situation is that a union is only as good as those who run it.  There are a lot of people who will say that the unionization of fire and ems has allowed ems as a profession to take several steps backwards.  To the contrary, our shop recently unionized (IAFF) and we have received a tremendous amount of support statewide during issues with hostile management during the days leading up to the vote.  Anyway, its really neither here nor there.  As stated above, if you are unhappy with management and believe yourself to be treated unfairly, it is certainly a viable option to look into.  I would suggest looking into an established organization, which for most would be IAFF or teamsters.


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## bigbaldguy (Nov 30, 2011)

I have no experience with EMS unions but I know a bit about unions in general. A bad union can be worse than no union but a good union is priceless. Any union is only as good as the people who belong to it. They work a bit like a democracy, if rank and file members don't vote, don't stay informed, and don't hold their union leaders accountable then it doesn't work.


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## pamedic (Jun 8, 2012)

*unions do have their place*

I have always been on the fence about unions because I have seen the good and the bad. The most shining example of the positive things a union can do is the United Farm Workers. The bad side? Unfortunately there are far too many examples of theft of members' funds, connections with organized crime, pay-offs, and failure to represent the members. Generally I think EMS is an area that needs unions. We have all heard the horror stories of low wages, absurd working hours and conditions, and job security that hangs by the thread of management's whim.

That being said, if anyone is looking into either organizing a union or switching to a new one, stay away from NEMSA. A little more than a year ago the employees of my company voted NEMSA in with all kinds of promises being made including training for shop stewards, monthly meetings with corporate members, a whole slew of electronic communication devices - and not to mention a contract that we would find acceptable. It is now a year later and none of those promises were kept. The most disheartening thing about this is that the terms of a contract had been reached but NEMSA never prepared it for presentation to the employees. After 2 months the employer revoked all of the offers. When employees complained to Torren Colcord, the Executive Director, his response was - if you are not happy with us vote us out.


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## CANDawg (Jun 8, 2012)

I'm generally a very anti-union person, I've seen more often than not how they're just used as tools for greed and abuse. That said if you want to run 911 calls in Alberta (or pretty much anywhere in Canada for that matter), you have to be a member of a union.

The one upside is that the EMS workers in Alberta are considered an "essential service" and are not allowed to strike. This means that there tends to be a bit better working relationship between the union and the government, and a bit more give and take. EMS workers as a result also tend to get much better pay and benefits than what the average is south of the border, and I'll admit there ARE situations where the union can prevent abuse of the system against employees.

Thankfully EMS also requires a certain level of dedication and responsibility to maintain a career, which means you tend to get less of the system abusers as you would see in, say, a blue collar union job.


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## rndtuet (Jun 9, 2012)

truetiger said:


> Our FT employees are IAFF members...works out well.



what about the pt folks


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## truetiger (Jun 9, 2012)

Pt members are not in the union.


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## JPINFV (Jun 9, 2012)

truetiger said:


> Our FT employees are IAFF members...works out well.




Are you a part of a fire department? If not, isn't that like having the fox guarding the hen house? After all, look at how IAFF back stabbed their "members" in the Kansas City MAST handover.


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## truetiger (Jun 9, 2012)

No we are a third service. I am not familiar with the Kansas City MAST handover. Unions may not work for everybody but it works for us.


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## Aidey (Jun 9, 2012)

They got :censored::censored::censored::censored:ed royally. The IAFF threw them under the bus in order to save fire jobs.


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## mm505 (Jun 9, 2012)

Most unions work the same way, no matter who they represent.  I was a union steward for CWA 3205 for a few years.  Then we went on strike.  I walked the picket line but also was able to support myself as a paramedic and worked all except 3 days out of 4 weeks.  You only received strike pay IF you or anyone in your HOUSEHOLD was unemployed!  Even if my son was making money, I would not receive strike benefits.  Also, everyone on the "union staff", drew 100% of their pay as they were on official union business (even if they didn't do jack squat during strike) and it was authorized.  Never mind people who were only living on a single paycheck from their spouse.  The clincher to me resigning was that after we returned to work - without drawing any paycheck from AT&T - we were REQUIRED to pay union dues for those 4 weeks we were out!  That royally chaffed my butt!

The good thing about living in the South, we are mostly all in Right To Work states which means if we do not want to belong to a union, we do not have to and we DO NOT have to pay union dues either.

People say that if a truck isn't right, or a boss is a pain or they make you pay for everything, I wouldn't worry, because those services will be going belly up when your truck breaks down (either on it's own or on purpose) or you quit because of bad management.  These bad services are also the ones who hire the EMT/Paramedic of questionable stature that I wouldn't want touching me.

Patient care is our business.  Think long and hard about it.  Do you want the ability to be able to do what you were trained for - helping patients and saving lives - or do you want to work by strict guidelines and rules/regulations that can affect the care you give someone.

Just my $0.02 worth as I've been on both sides.


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## NYMedic828 (Jun 9, 2012)

FDNY has a separate union for EMS and fire.

God how I wish our union was one in the same with fire's. They get EVERYTHING they want and the city loves them.

We get the leftovers.


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## CANDawg (Jun 9, 2012)

NYMedic828 said:


> FDNY has a separate union for EMS and fire.
> 
> God how I wish our union was one in the same with fire's. They get EVERYTHING they want and the city loves them.
> 
> We get the leftovers.


 


			
				Aidey said:
			
		

> They got :censored::censored::censored::censored:ed royally. The IAFF threw them under the bus in order to save fire jobs.


 
Are you sure about that? If there is no respect for EMS in your area, that doesn't really change with the union. EMS needs to start campaigns to build public support. Then and only then will the politicians follow.

Make EMS week a large, public celebration instead of just hospitals giving gifts to medics!


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## JPINFV (Jun 9, 2012)

NYMedic828 said:


> FDNY has a separate union for EMS and fire.
> 
> God how I wish our union was one in the same with fire's. They get EVERYTHING they want and the city loves them.
> 
> We get the leftovers.



Can't you still "promote" to the fire side anyways? After all, why turn down a "promotion"?


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## JPINFV (Jun 9, 2012)

truetiger said:


> No we are a third service. I am not familiar with the Kansas City MAST handover. Unions may not work for everybody but it works for us.




Just wait for your local fire department to thing that they can use your money to buy shiny fire engines. I mean do your job better


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## JPINFV (Jun 9, 2012)

dbo789 said:


> Are you sure about that? If there is no respect for EMS in your area, that doesn't really change with the union. EMS needs to start campaigns to build public support. Then and only then will the politicians follow.
> 
> Make EMS week a large, public celebration instead of just hospitals giving gifts to medics!



Well, it doesn't help that while EMS is busy doing their jobs, the fire department gets to have a white hat hamming it up for the TV channels. "Yep, lots of people injured at this accident, but we did a brave job saving them by parking our truck in the way and letting EMS work. Yep, we're heroes!


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## CANDawg (Jun 10, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> Well, it doesn't help that while EMS is busy doing their jobs, the fire department gets to have a white hat hamming it up for the TV channels. "Yep, lots of people injured at this accident, but we did a brave job saving them by parking our truck in the way and letting EMS work. Yep, we're heroes!



Again, I think it depends on the jurisdiction.

Where I live, 911 EMS is a publicly run third service. Each district has a PEO, or Public Education Officer, that does media interviews. If there is a car crash where someone was injured, they'll be the ones in front of the cameras. (If someone died, its the cops.) The only times you ever really see Fire on the 6 o'clock news is when there's an actual.... (gasp!) fire.

All that said, I think the responsibility still falls on EMS to make themselves get the recognition from the public for what they do. Its much harder when you have a variety of private services, but still doable. If that means having a media-trained medic that you can call on scene to elbow the battalion chief out from in front of the cameras, so be it.


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## Tigger (Jun 10, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> Well, it doesn't help that while EMS is busy doing their jobs, the fire department gets to have a white hat hamming it up for the TV channels. "Yep, lots of people injured at this accident, but we did a brave job saving them by parking our truck in the way and letting EMS work. Yep, we're heroes!



The flip side being that most EMS agencies do not send a supervisor to most calls. Most of the time EMS has no use for supervisors on scene, but if you want to get on TV you better send someone with rank that can get in front of the camera. Obviously many places don't have the resources to do so, but lots do and they don't for whatever reason. 

It's a cultural difference the fire service and EMS to send an officer to most incidents, but it has paid many dividends for them, with little downside.


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## Aidey (Jun 10, 2012)

dbo789 said:


> Are you sure about that? If there is no respect for EMS in your area, that doesn't really change with the union. EMS needs to start campaigns to build public support. Then and only then will the politicians follow.
> 
> Make EMS week a large, public celebration instead of just hospitals giving gifts to medics!



Google Kansas City MAST and IAFF. MAST and KCFD were two separate IAFF branches. MAST was 3rd service non profit. The BLS FD was facing budget cuts and argued that MAST should be combined with them, so none of the FFs would lose their jobs. The IAFF backed the FD and the employees of MAST ended up with no say in the matter.

I should also add that MAST's public image was probably way better than the KCFD's at the time. KCFD has a nasty habit of killing and seriously injuring people in fire truck crashes.


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## CANDawg (Jun 10, 2012)

Aidey said:


> Google Kansas City MAST and IAFF. MAST and KCFD were two separate IAFF branches. MAST was 3rd service non profit. The BLS FD was facing budget cuts and argued that MAST should be combined with them, so none of the FFs would lose their jobs. The IAFF backed the FD and the employees of MAST ended up with no say in the matter.



I don't doubt it. My comment was directed at NYMedic828, I was using your post to strengthen my point.


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## NYMedic828 (Jun 10, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> Can't you still "promote" to the fire side anyways? After all, why turn down a "promotion"?



That is the sole reason I even work for EMS.

I would be in a classroom otherwise. Once I get those turnout pants and two 24s a week shift il be back to school.


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## DrParasite (Jun 10, 2012)

Tigger said:


> The flip side being that most EMS agencies do not send a supervisor to most calls. Most of the time EMS has no use for supervisors on scene, but if you want to get on TV you better send someone with rank that can get in front of the camera. Obviously many places don't have the resources to do so, but lots do and they don't for whatever reason.
> 
> It's a cultural difference the fire service and EMS to send an officer to most incidents, but it has paid many dividends for them, with little downside.


with all due respect, but there are quite a few problems with your statement, as well as some inaccuracies.

Most larger EMS systems DO have supervisors.  some even send them to major calls.  MVAs, fires, majors traumas are all grounds for supervisor dispatches.  But in most cases, agencies don't want a field supervisor speaking to the press.

Watch the news about a big fire, who is speaking?  If you ever watch the news, it's rare to see a Captain or Lieutenant speaking to the media; it's almost always a Chief-level officer (BC/DC/COD).  Watch the news about a crime, who is speaking?  it's not the road sergeant.  It's a white shirt,  Captain or Lieutenant, who are typically office personnel.

EMS (typically) doesn't have a dedicated Public information/educator Officer, who has those relationships with the press.  someone who the media knows, who can stick around major scenes until the media shows up (which is where many EMS supervisors fail, because once their units clear the scene, they go back available to handle their other supervisory duties).  Not only that, but since most EMS higher ups are soooooo unnecessarily scared of patient confidentiality violations, they seem to think that no news is good news, and go our of their way to not provide any useful information to the press.

A good PIO is 24/7 able to give statements to the press, is available 24/7 for press questions, and is responsible for all PR and public education.  This person is known by the press, and already had relationships with local news agencies.   It's a hard job, and an important job that most EMS agencies don't budget for, because they think they don't need it.  After all, they never needed it before, so why do they need it now, in a time when budgets are being slashed and call volumes are rising?  but that's off topic, and should belong in it's own thread.


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## Lozenger19 (Jun 10, 2012)

I'm not looking to start an argument!!!

I'm a union steward & think that unions are great for the workplace. I've seen good things that the union has done. 

Yes.... There are some bad things, but good out weighs bad.

That's just my opinion


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## Tigger (Jun 10, 2012)

DrParasite said:


> with all due respect, but there are quite a few problems with your statement, as well as some inaccuracies.
> 
> Most larger EMS systems DO have supervisors.  some even send them to major calls.  MVAs, fires, majors traumas are all grounds for supervisor dispatches.  But in most cases, agencies don't want a field supervisor speaking to the press.
> 
> ...



With all do respect perhaps consider that not every FD and EMS service works exactly like the way it does in your New Jersey kingdom. I've seen plenty of line officers on TV or interviewed in the paper in both Massachusetts and Colorado. 

Where I work in Colorado (second largest city in the state), every fire officer receives media training. The PIO doesn't show up until a third alarm, so it is actually quite common to see a lieutenant or captain on TV. They are proactive about speaking to the media and keeping the public informed regardless of incident type incident whether it be a fire, rescue, or medical. This has paid massive dividends in terms of public opinion, people here like their fire department and appreciate their openness and approachability and have so far not made any drastic cuts to service. 

Unions are one way to fight for jobs, but that job is made a lot easier if the public already holds the department in a high regard. In this case, the department's media policy has helped to keep them in a positive light in the media. EMS could do the same thing. You don't need a PIO to get your message out, you need to ensure that your ranking field staff won't make a fool of themselves on TV and that does not cost much. Boston EMS does this quite well, if you see a BEMS member on TV, odds are it's one of the field supervisors or the shift commander, not an office person. I would not be at all surprised if they received some tips in handling the media, they do a great job.

You're right, many agencies cannot budget for a PIO, but when times get tough we absolutely need to do a better job selling ourselves to the public while also avoiding being perceived as hiding behind unions. Given the nature of EMS work we are all a fairly reactive bunch in all facets of the job, but this one place where as an industry we need to get out in front of the issue. Unions are often helpful in this cause, but they are not the only avenue.


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## 46Young (Jun 10, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> Can't you still "promote" to the fire side anyways? After all, why turn down a "promotion"?



If you sat on street corners all day and night and running your tail off, you'd understand. FDNY FF's have a better pension with less years to retirement, better pay, and a career ladder. They also don't have to show up every day for eight hours, and also get held over (mandated) a lot. In addition, after going fire, you can still work NYC 911 EMS as a per diem medic for one of the hospitals. It's almost like creating your own dual role job.


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## JPINFV (Jun 10, 2012)

46Young said:


> If you sat on street corners all day and night and running your tail off, you'd understand. FDNY FF's have a better pension with less years to retirement, better pay, and a career ladder. They also don't have to show up every day for eight hours, and also get held over (mandated) a lot. In addition, after going fire, you can still work NYC 911 EMS as a per diem medic for one of the hospitals. It's almost like creating your own dual role job.




Oh, I understand that FDNY abuses their EMTs and paramedics. That doesn't mean I have to agree with it.


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## 46Young (Jun 11, 2012)

dbo789 said:


> Are you sure about that? If there is no respect for EMS in your area, that doesn't really change with the union. EMS needs to start campaigns to build public support. Then and only then will the politicians follow.
> 
> Make EMS week a large, public celebration instead of just hospitals giving gifts to medics!



It's NYC. No one really cares about EMS until they have to call, which may never happen.The police and fire dapartments are much more established, since they've been around for much longer than EMS. Their membership and Unions are much larger, as well. Despite that, police and fire really aren't paid that well, considering that it's NYC, and the cost of living is high. EMS does even worse, and they have to work eight hour shifts like the cops do.

This is why NYMedic828 is only using FDNY EMS as a stepping stone - they do it to themselves by offering so little. That is why I left the NYC 911 system and went to a well paying dual role Fire/EMS department. After I graduated medic school, I started the hiring process for FDNY EMS. At around this time, a former co-worker from my hospital visited up from Virginia, and told us about the department that I currently work for. I ditched the process and left NY less than a year later. I now work ten days a month, with a 45 min commute, with an easily affordable 5B 2 1/2 Bath 3200SF Colonial, and a real career ladder. FDNY EMS dosen't offer that. 

For all the corruption, lack of Unions result in $8-$12/hr EMS careers with poor working conditions.


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## 46Young (Jun 11, 2012)

Anyone ever think of an easy way to get around the negative public perception of a department that gives pensions without employee contribution? Simply raise the employee's salary, and give that all back as an employer match with a slightly reduced multiplier. That looks much better to the public, and if the pension system becomes insovent, you'll have legal ground to stand on, since you've been paying into the system.

If you're only making $8-$12/hr and being asked to kick in 7-10% for your pension on top of that, you're getting ripped off. A Union may not change that, but it will certainly never change without a Union. That presents a conundrum, of course, but if it were me, and I had to work 56 hours a week to make 30 grand, I would take a change with organizing to change that for the better. What are they going to do?


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## 46Young (Jun 11, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> Oh, I understand that FDNY abuses their EMTs and paramedics. That doesn't mean I have to agree with it.



I don't agree with it either. That's why my cousins left to work for one of the local hospitals, and that's why I went out of state for a well paying fire based system. Otherwise, I'd have went back to school and earned a medical degree of some sort. EMS without organization or fire based funding is only a short term job prospect for many people, or a long term gig for those that have no better options. I suppose one could relocate to Canada, NZ, or Australia for a better EMS career, like a few on this forum have inquired about.


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## NYMedic828 (Jun 11, 2012)

Only reason I took the medic upgrade was because beating my co-workers on the competitive exam for starters was a joke, and so I can work for a volly fire department as a paid paramedic when I make fire.

There is NO incentive to work EMS in NYC unless you TRULY love love love what you do or have no ambition in life.

The second I get a letter to be a firefighter im getting the heck out of there, getting a side job and getting back in the classroom.


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## 46Young (Jun 11, 2012)

Lozenger19 said:


> I'm not looking to start an argument!!!
> 
> I'm a union steward & think that unions are great for the workplace. I've seen good things that the union has done.
> 
> ...



In my 4+ years on the job, my Union has saved my job from a Reduction in Force, and has won us step increases (pay raise) when the County had already decided not to for the third straight year. Medic $2-$3/hr riding pay has been protected as well. That's between $6k-$8k a year at stake right there. Money well spent. Now, we're participating in a NIST study that is evaluating time spent on various high rise firefighting tasks, that is expected to support upstaffing, such as having four or more on the engine and truck. As it stands, we have 4+3, and many places have only 3+3 or less.

How many EMS departments are conducting studies to show that three crew members are needed for tx/txp, the detrimental effects of lack of sleep and forced OT after a busy 24 hrs, etc? I'm guessing no one.


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## 46Young (Jun 11, 2012)

NYMedic828 said:


> There is NO incentive to work EMS in NYC unless you TRULY love love love what you do or have no ambition in life.



Very true.The money's decent for the short term if you work for a hospital, but NYC/FDNY EMS is a dead end job for the most part. You'll never get ahead in the tri-state area on an EMS salary, for sure.

Sad, but true. NYC EMS is good for a fun part time gig, though. If I was single, I would have kept my position at NS-LIJ as a per diem just for kicks. It's different when you can come and go as you please, and aren't owned by your employer.


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## cusadiz (Jun 12, 2012)

Union member here and will echo what's already been said; the union is a representation of what the members put into it. Not unlike our current political process - when no one stays informed or votes, things go to hell rapidly.


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## BeachMedic (Jun 16, 2012)

While I am Pro-Union. I will echo what others have said and advise the OP to stay away from NEMSA.

NEMSA will always put NEMSA board members first and the actual field employees second. 

Unfortunately in my county they have become a do-nothing Union and the process of voting them out is tied up in litigation with the NLRB. Don't worry though, NEMSA is spending $20,000 dollars a month of our union dues on lawyers to make sure they get to stay in power.

There are many, many, other examples of back door deals and shenanigans but I wont go into that here.

Just stay away from NEMSA.


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