# cycling and oxygen questions



## jordanfstop (Aug 12, 2007)

i'm apart of a group that has weekly rides and i've happened to be a black cloud sometimes, usually with some mild first aid things to a fairly serious cardiac (his sinus node wasn't firing half of his heart) and one that needed immobilization... anyways, i'm looking to carry a trauma bag with an oxygen cylinder inside of it (M6A/ML6.)

can cylinders of that size that can shoot out 12-15lpm for twenty minutes if necessary? Or is it more-so up to the regulator? according to this ( http://www.monroecc.edu/depts/pstc/backup/paraoxca.htm ) with an m sized tank that is filled to 2000psi it can go for 187 minutes at 15lpm. did i do something wrong there?

is it safe to cycle (road) with an oxygen cylinder?

what's a good smaller sized trauma bag that can fit in my larger sized backpack cycling bag (21"H x 17"W x 10"D) and can hold standard trauma/breathing equipment?


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## Flight-LP (Aug 12, 2007)

I'm guessing you are not aware of the size of an "M" cylinder.................

It weighs about 80 lbs. and is the size that is found in most ambulances supply the truck with on board oxygen. Definately not practical in your case.

A "C" cylinder would work and can fit in most bike bags. You'll get 10 minutes worth of oxygen at most if you set the regulator at 15LPM. 

You need to check with your organization and your state EMS office concerning the legalities of your possessing and administering oxygen. Remember it is a prescribed medication, you can't just decide on a whim to use it.

As far as safety goes, yes you can safely use O2 on a bike. Get an approved and specifically manufactured bike bag and secure it properlyto your bike. I would also give some consideration to sitting though an EMS bike medic course.......


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## VentMedic (Aug 13, 2007)

There are now many light weight systems out there used by patients with lung disease and/or athletes and by aviators (as well as mountain climbers).

The tanks that work on demand (via nasal cannula) may be more flow efficient but not practical in an emergency but you can override that. Also the use of an Oxymizer (nasal cannula with a reservoir) which was made popular in aviation is now used by people that want more mileage out of a tank of O2

The aluminum tanks are also very lightweight. 

Then, do you want a liquid system or compressed gas?  Both can have good points and bad. 

For portability and emergencies there are more manufacturers and options than even I can track. 

http://www.heliosoxygen.com/

http://www.heliosfreedomtour.com/

http://www.nelsonoxygen.com/sportsman.htm

Independent use would be questionable. You may have to be medically sponsored. Refer to Flight-LP's post.

*Great photography jordanfstop.*


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## MMiz (Aug 13, 2007)

First, welcome to EMTLife!

_You'd be looking at either:_
M6 Cylinder: 165 liters - ~10 minutes
C Cylinder: 248 liters - ~15 minutes
_
A standard ambulance is equipped with:_
D Cylinder (portable): ~25-30 minutes
M Cylinder (stationary and *very* heavy): 3450 liters - ~4 hours

While VentMedic is on track, I don't think you'd purchase any of those expensive systems just for the sporadic first aid situation.  In fact I'm not sure that I'd want to be biking around with O2 strapped to my back.  They make EMS O2 bike carriers, though that may not work depending on your bike type.

Good luck, and I hope that helps!


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## VentMedic (Aug 13, 2007)

missed my cue


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## VentMedic (Aug 13, 2007)

You are right about expense. But, there are other ways besides purchasing. 

For local athletic events with our "Better Breathers", kids' asthma or ventilator clubs, we have a couple of  home care companies assist in providing equipment for "refueling" and spare tanks. The hospital ( or licensed medical entity) can "enable" us as health care providers.  

Many oxygen companies do rent equipment on a daily bases with sponsorship or prescription such as for special events or the out of town COPDer that needs another tank.

Still, it all falls onto the individual's ability to administer oxygen under his/her license and medical director or sponsor.


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## VentMedic (Aug 13, 2007)

I actually find this an interesting topic after doing flight and specialty transport for many years. We have tried to make ourselves more portable for emergency response in many healthcare professions. However, we keep adding on all those extra "lifesaving" gadgets.  Maybe if we took just the equipment carried in 1979, but with the 2007 lightweight models, we'd have an efficient lightweight bag. 

Here are a couple of examples of bikes decked for emergency response. There are many others both paid and volunteer. There was a thread on this not too long ago on this forum. 

An alumunim tank, D or C, would probably last long enough for a response in an urban area.  A simple mask at 6-8 liters may suffice instead of a 15L NRBM depending on WOB.  An Oxymizer NC (expensive) can also be conserving at low flows: 1L from tank = 2L, 1.5L = 3L etc.

Also many cardiac and respiratory patients that don't necessarily qualify for home O2, may quality under special rehab programs for exercise. Their pulmonologist/cardiologist and a good PFT lab can help with this. 

Again, licensing, sponsorship and local protocols would determine the legalities. 

http://www.toronto.ca/ems/operations/bikes.htm

http://www.ipmba.org/reviews-emsbasics-0403.htm


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## Airwaygoddess (Aug 13, 2007)

Has anybody worked with the new titanium O2 tanks yet?


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## BossyCow (Aug 13, 2007)

I'm curious about the 20 minutes.  Why so long?  If there's an issue, aren't you calling for a medical response from whoever is the agency close?  I'm an extremely rural agency and we can have o2 on a patient generally within 5 minutes.  Are you mountain biking?


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## Summit (Aug 13, 2007)

BossyCow said:


> I'm curious about the 20 minutes.  Why so long?  If there's an issue, aren't you calling for a medical response from whoever is the agency close?  I'm an extremely rural agency and we can have o2 on a patient generally within 5 minutes.  Are you mountain biking?



OK if you have a <5min response time you are not very rural or your district has way too much money and way too many stations


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## MMiz (Aug 13, 2007)

Even when I worked in a semi-rural area, our response times could *easily* push 20 minutes if the county's rigs were out on another call.  It scared the crap out of me at first, but it was the reality of rural living (25,000 population).


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## Arkymedic (Aug 14, 2007)

Summit said:


> OK if you have a <5min response time you are not very rural or your district has way too much money and way too many stations



Thats pretty much what I was thinking to myself lol


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## Arkymedic (Aug 14, 2007)

MMiz said:


> Even when I worked in a semi-rural area, our response times could *easily* push 20 minutes if the county's rigs were out on another call.  It scared the crap out of me at first, but it was the reality of rural living (25,000 population).



We cover most of my area within 20 min but there are areas that it can easily go to 35 minutes to get to pt. I wish to God I was able to say we were rural and could get to a pt in 5 min. Hell even with 1st Responders that may be impossible depending on what day and time it is.


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## Arkymedic (Aug 14, 2007)

*Just an example of how bad it could be...*

Had a cardiac arrest a few wks ago that took us 37 minutes to get to. Witnessed arrest and family did CPR until we could get there and kept her in fine VF shocked and intubated and got a pulse back but despite pacing and atropine it stopped in about 10 min :sad: Coded her until we hit the ER and after 7 shocks, 4mg Atropine maxed, 6 Epi, and pacing the Dr. called it when we hit the ER doors. I was so disheartened..wish I had never got anything back:sad:


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## jordanfstop (Aug 14, 2007)

mod please delete if you wish and refer to new post

_Moderator's edit:  No need to delete the thread.  Good information is included here._


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## BossyCow (Aug 14, 2007)

2 Stations, 52 square mile district and about 1500 pop.  Our response time is an average based on most of us responding directly to the scene from our homes and a good sprinkling of volunteers throughout the district.  Our stations are centrally located and we usually have one volly on scene and 1 - 2 more heading to the station for a rig within minutes.  We have had response times of 10 - 12 minutes but unless its a backcountry rescue, not more than that generally speaking.


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## Gbro (Sep 8, 2007)

I was involved with our 10K race we have on the 4th. After a boring 2 hr's of putting along with 1st aid gear on an ATV(i hate those things) i vowed to never do that again, This was a Run/walk event for all ages.
I stated that i would walk the 10K with my Pack/frame before i would ever follow on an ATV, so the next 4th, i was again asked, and i packed 5 gal of water in the pack, and topped it off with a D-cyl O2 kit and some 1st aid supply's. The pack weighed approx 65 lbs. The walk was great, as i needed the conditioning for Elk hunting come fall.
The next year i got a stupid idea and stated i would carry a full 8 gal keg of beer. What a miserable mistake. 70+ lbs, but it rode poorly and i was barley able to finish. "Everyone remembers the idiot with the Keg" that was Me!
The next year i upped it to a bundle, plus  of shingles. 100lbs and that was very easy. Now i have to do this 10K thing with something different this next year. I train and think about what is next. Its an automatic transmission.
Everyone remembers the Keg, nobody remembers the shingles of the 1st pack. Just that dang Keg of Beer. 
Well the Tranny was the end of the packing for fun, I hurt myself, and just had to say "Uncle"  For NOW!


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## seanm028 (Sep 19, 2007)

Summit said:


> OK if you have a <5min response time you are not very rural or your district has way too much money and way too many stations



I live in the Phoenix metro area, and the PFD as well as the FDs of the surrounding cities have a 4 minute response time goal, and from what I understand that goal is usually met, with units usually on scene in less than 4 minutes.

I don't think we have too many stations, and if we have more money it's only because they promote various legislation and propositions for more funding, more firefighters (who are all at least BLS), etc.

The FD runs their own rescues, and the surrounding cities have two or three private ambulance companies who are on the same dispatch and will respond if they're closer.  Right now they just started a program to convert every single engine in the city to ALS, made up of 2 EMT-Bs and 2 EMT-Ps.  We'll see how it goes.

*EDIT:*  My bad, I didn't see right away that your post said "you're not very rural."  Phoenix is definitely not rural.  I guess that's the difference.


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