# Service Dog in Ambulance



## Mountain Res-Q (Jul 3, 2012)

Quick Question.  Just heard this one.  Call was for a female who wanted transport to the ED for "really bad poison oak", and asked the dispatcher if it was possible for her "blind seeing eye dog" (a service dog protected by law) to accompany her to the ED in the Ambulance.  Upon dispatch the Medic said that he could not have the dog in the back of the Ambulance, and the patient then cancelled her request for the Ambulance.  Now, setting aside the BS nature of the call, what does the law state about Service Dogs in Ambulances?  I had never encountered that situation myself; has anyone?  Any law, policy, etc you want to share?  Because SAR Dogs in CA recently received the same protection as Service Dogs for Medical Uses, I am familiar with (in general) with some prohibitions that still stand (like taking the dog into an ICU or into a Clean Room), but am not familiar with this one.  Was that a legal statement from the Medic?


----------



## DrParasite (Jul 3, 2012)

on one hand, service animals are permitted to go pretty much anywhere.

on the other hand, you now have an animal in a confined space that he or she is unfamiliar with, and the decon aside (we will speculate that you will be OOS until proper cleanup occurs), if the dog doesn't like the ride or gets aggressive/barks/bites, then what?

that is a very good question.  hopefully your upper management has a written policy on how to handle such animals.


----------



## DesertMedic66 (Jul 3, 2012)

When I was going thru my FTO time I was told that as long as it was in fact a service animal and it would fit in the ambulance safely then we have to take it and let the hospital know. I haven't bothered to look it up to see if we have an actual policy on it tho. 

I've transported one service animal so far without issue. Granted it was a very small breed of dog that was trained to allert the owner when she was about to have a seizure.


----------



## JPINFV (Jul 3, 2012)

Shrug. What about the passenger seat up front?


----------



## mycrofft (Jul 3, 2012)

1. Call EMSA.
2. Many times I have recently seen people with bogus service dogs. In fact, spoke people sell little doggy vests or cards that say "Service Dog" sold with for the express purpose of circumventing the access laws.

Here's a website narrowly skirting the edges:
http://www.servicedogtags.com/?gclid=CMH0pcnh_LACFY4FRQodFSGKIw


----------



## WuLabsWuTecH (Jul 3, 2012)

Easy for us: The patient goes with us, the dog goes with the LEO.  That way, the dog is not of a hazard to anyone (since it'll be in a cage effectively) and the pt doesn't need the dog b/c we'll take care of the patient while we're there.


----------



## CANDawg (Jul 3, 2012)

WuLabsWuTecH said:


> Easy for us: The patient goes with us, the dog goes with the LEO.  That way, the dog is not of a hazard to anyone (since it'll be in a cage effectively) and the pt doesn't need the dog b/c we'll take care of the patient while we're there.



+1

Tell the LEO that being a dog walker (driver?) is covered under the 'other duties as assigned' part of his/her job description.

I'd be surprised if service dogs were even allowed in the hospital anyway, or at least not very far inside the ED. If the person is blind, that's what wheelchairs/orderlies are for. If the person has seizures.... what's what nurses are for.


----------



## bigbaldguy (Jul 3, 2012)

As per federal law the dog stays with the patient unless there is absolutely no possible way to avoid separating them. If the dog is a trained assistance animal I can guarantee you will not have a problem with the dog biting or being aggressive.

Not as black and white as I had thought here is a website explaining it.

http://servicedogcentral.org/content/faq/63

And an excerpt

For example, on a case-by-case basis a ambulance crew may decide not to permit a service animal in the treatment area of an ambulance if lack of space means the dog would interfere with the necessary movement of personnel providing emergency care. That might be a "fundamental alteration" if the presence of the dog prevents the emergency workers from performing their jobs.

A service animal might be excluded from an area that requires special clothing, such as a hospital ICU (Intensive Care Unit), or a computer "clean room," where the tiniest particle can ruin the manufacture of computer chips. A service animal might be excluded from an area where zoo exhibits can come in direct contact with human visitors, such as an aviary. On a case-by-case basis, a service animal might be removed if its presence is frightening a zoo exhibit to the point of harming the exhibit.

Still sounds like you better have a damn good reason to say no though.


----------



## Tigger (Jul 3, 2012)

As BBG mentioned, service dogs are some of the best trained dogs out there and have been subjected to numerous situations before being given to their actual owner. I flew home from Colorado one year with a service dog in training next to me. If the airplane doesn't bother the dog, I doubt the ambulance would. I suppose if possible it be nice to have a family member around to help "manage" the dog, but I don't think that would stop me from just transporting with the patient, dog, and me in back.


----------



## CANDawg (Jul 3, 2012)

bigbaldguy said:


> As per federal law the dog stays with the patient unless there is absolutely no possible way to avoid separating them. If the dog is a trained assistance animal I can guarantee you will not have a problem with the dog biting or being aggressive.
> 
> Not as black and white as I had thought here is a website explaining it.
> 
> ...



The key here is that the dog must remain under the control of the individual. If the patient is unconscious, altered mental status, or severely injured, they are unable to control the dog. That means the Americans with Disabilities Act or other legislation doesn't apply.


----------



## JPINFV (Jul 3, 2012)

dbo789 said:


> +1
> 
> Tell the LEO that being a dog walker (driver?) is covered under the 'other duties as assigned' part of his/her job description.
> 
> I'd be surprised if service dogs were even allowed in the hospital anyway, or at least not very far inside the ED. If the person is blind, that's what wheelchairs/orderlies are for. If the person has seizures.... what's what nurses are for.



...then prepared to be surprised because they are. Hey, let's refuse to let people wear glasses. After all, if you can't see there are orderlies. Let's refuse to let people have dentures because, hey, soft mechanical diet.


----------



## nocoderob (Jul 3, 2012)

Per my company policy (AMR), the dogs go unless the pt is unresponsive and therefore the handler cannot control the animal.


----------



## CANDawg (Jul 3, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> ...then prepared to be surprised because they are. Hey, let's refuse to let people wear glasses. After all, if you can't see there are orderlies. Let's refuse to let people have dentures because, hey, soft mechanical diet.


Dentures and glasses don't impact the ability for EMS to do their jobs. 

There's also a lot of talk of how well trained they are. That might be true, but in the case of severe injury or trauma (say an MVA), the dog is NOT going to be calm, regardless of training. People getting run over with cars is not part of the scenario training they go through as puppies. (And if it is, someone should alert LE.) The dog may be aggressively protective of the pt, or at minimum so hyped that it interferes in treatment. 

This all relates back to my point: if the dog is uncontrolled or uncontrollable, you are not required to take it.

My post was made before I did some research, granted. That said, the idea is that there are other options available to the pt on a temporary basis. No service dog is not a life/death issue.


----------



## JPINFV (Jul 3, 2012)

dbo789 said:


> Dentures and glasses don't impact the ability for EMS to do their jobs.



That's not the argument you laid down in the post I quoted down. You're arguing that the patient doesn't need them since alternatives exist, therefore there's no reason to take the dog. Furthermore, I don't think the assumption that the presence of a properly trained service dog is any more a negative impact. 



> There's also a lot of talk of how well trained they are. That might be true, but in the case of severe injury or trauma (say an MVA), the dog is NOT going to be calm, regardless of training. People getting run over with cars is not part of the scenario training they go through as puppies. (And if it is, someone should alert LE.) The dog may be aggressively protective of the pt, or at minimum so hyped that it interferes in treatment.



Is it too hard to go on a situation by situation basis? Saying "the dog WILL BE DANGEROUS, PERIOD" is as intellectually lazy as the people or protocols state that psych patients gets limb restraints. How can EMS be a profession if the providers refuse to actually use judgement? 



> This all relates back to my point: if the dog is uncontrolled or uncontrollable, you are not required to take it.


I agree. However that was never a part of the argument you made in the post I quoted earlier, nor the argument you presented in the rest of the current post.


----------



## CANDawg (Jul 3, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> That's not the argument you laid down in the post I quoted down. You're arguing that the patient doesn't need them since alternatives exist, therefore there's no reason to take the dog. Furthermore, I don't think the assumption that the presence of a properly trained service dog is any more a negative impact.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I never once stated that there should be a one size fits all solution. In fact, I was saying just the opposite - that judgement should be used rather than blindly taking the dog in all cases. 

As for the rest of your argument, I acknowledged that my initial post was made before I researched the issue a bit further, making your point moot.


----------



## Hockey (Jul 3, 2012)

I enjoy bringing em along.  Never a problem before.  But I like animals and the extra company


----------



## medicdan (Jul 3, 2012)

I was having this exact debate with a friend a few weeks ago, and he sent me this, from a nearby ambulance service that publishes their  SOP/Policy manual online, and has a section on service animals. See below: 


> 3.10.F. Transporting of Patient with a Service Animal
> 
> Service animals, for example, guide dogs utilized by visually impaired persons, shall be permitted to accompany the patient in the ambulance or wheelchair van unless the presence of the service animal will disrupt emergency or urgent patient care or there is some basis for the crew members to believe that the safety of the crew, the patient or others would be compromised by the presence of the service animal in the ambulance or wheelchair van.
> 
> ...


from http://www.proems.com/v2/employment_pnp3.cfm?contentID=80&title=41&titleName=Operations


----------



## VFlutter (Jul 3, 2012)

I heard propofol works great on dogs....h34r:


----------



## Bullets (Jul 3, 2012)

My concern is how do I secure the dog during transport? it doesn't have the ability to brace itself in the event of an accident, and unsecured I dont want 90lbs of golden retriever coming at my head


----------



## medicdan (Jul 3, 2012)

Bullets said:


> My concern is how do I secure the dog during transport? it doesn't have the ability to brace itself in the event of an accident, and unsecured I dont want 90lbs of golden retriever coming at my head


Seat belt on the tech seat seems to make sense...


----------



## Chimpie (Jul 3, 2012)

emt.dan said:


> Seat belt on the tech seat seems to make sense...



That was the first thing I thought of while reading the first post.


----------



## JPINFV (Jul 3, 2012)

ChaseZ33 said:


> I heard propofol works great on dogs....h34r:


...hopefully better than it works on pop stars.


----------



## Handsome Robb (Jul 3, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> ...hopefully better than it works on pop stars.



Ba dum ching! :rofl:

I think it's a case by case basis. You can't make protocols fit every patient and you can't make SOGs/SOPs fit every situation perfectly either. 

As for dogs in ICUs, kinda off topic but I saw someone mention it, we have a couple therapy dogs that make rounds in some of our ICUs on a pretty regular basis...I love those dogs, one in particular is my favorite. He's massive!

I have my doubts about certain service dogs, we dealt with them pretty regularly at my last job at the beach. It was a no dog beach and we constantly would run into people complaining or yelling/screaming/cussing at us when we approached them about their pomeranian or wiener dog or chihuahua  only to be met with "they are a service dog! they keep me from having anxiety attacks" or some other random reason that made no sense. I'm all for service dogs but it seems like you can get one for pretty much any reason and I've heard it isn't hard to buy the vests on the internet without the paperwork for your dog to wear.


----------



## mycrofft (Jul 3, 2012)

BBG, never guarantee that a class of dogs won't bite. (Or will bite for that matter).

I really doubt service dogs are tested and conditioned to sit and stand by if it looks like someone is attacking their master (CPR, intubation, painful IV start) .

=================================================

As for telling law enforcement what their job is, good luck with that.  But, hey, how much time could that consume?......No one will want a dog in their car in case they have to clean up behind it, or it starts getting excited and they are driving along having to listen to it call for its master. A law enforcement officer might more likely call for Animal Control.

What if the pet is a psychological companion animal but not officially? Like when I'm eighty and my little chihuahua is my only companion and I get chest pain or I overdosed on my meds and call 911, then panic at separation or if there is no one to take care of the animal?


----------



## Aidey (Jul 3, 2012)

Companion animals/emotional support animals DO NOT have the same protections as a service animal. Legally the only differences between them and a pet is that they can travel in the cabin of an aircraft and you can keep them in housing that otherwise does not allow pets. 

They are not allowed in businesses or any of other places service animals are. Obviously people lie about this all of the time, and most people don't know the difference so they don't say anything. Companion animals also don't have to be trained like service animals do, which could pose a host of problems under the right circumstances.


----------



## bigbaldguy (Jul 3, 2012)

mycrofft said:


> BBG, never guarantee that a class of dogs won't bite. (Or will bite for that matter).
> 
> I really doubt service dogs are tested and conditioned to sit and stand by if it looks like someone is attacking their master (CPR, intubation, painful IV start) .



I would be more worried about the owner biting generally. But yes given the proper stimulus any creature could become aggressive.

I wouldn't be so sure formally trained service dogs aren't trained to handle things like that. The programs they have for these dogs are incredible and they try to expose them to nearly every type of stimulus they might encounter including medical situations. 

There are non formally trained service animals though. The ADA allows for any dog that can perform a service for a person with a disability to be classified as a service animal so training can vary. 

In 17 years of transporting 100s of people with service animals I have never had an incident in which an animal has ever shown any aggressive behavior. This includes a fair number of dogs that people claimed were service animals but I suspect weren't. I think the likely hood of a service animal behaving inappropriately would be very very minimal.


----------



## DocHalpin (Feb 2, 2015)

Sorry to bump this out of the grave (no pun intended)..

I'm an EMT-Intermediate (and retired Combat Medic). My VA doctor just signed off on a service dog for my PTSD.. Does anyone have any insight regarding the EMS workers themselves, being able to work in an ambulance with a service dog..?


----------



## Chewy20 (Feb 2, 2015)

DocHalpin said:


> Sorry to bump this out of the grave (no pun intended)..
> 
> I'm an EMT-Intermediate (and retired Combat Medic). My VA doctor just signed off on a service dog for my PTSD.. Does anyone have any insight regarding the EMS workers themselves, being able to work in an ambulance with a service dog..?


 
Not going to happen.

Thank you for your service though, and glad you found a way to cope with the dog!


----------



## DocHalpin (Feb 2, 2015)

Thanks for the support! 

I think there *could* be a way to make it work.. I'm getting a smaller dog, and it's hypoallergenic (poodle mix)..


----------



## teedubbyaw (Feb 2, 2015)

DocHalpin said:


> Thanks for the support!
> 
> I think there *could* be a way to make it work.. I'm getting a smaller dog, and it's hypoallergenic (poodle mix)..



Nope. What chewy said.

Asking a potential or even current employer will make them question your competency as an EMT. Even your patients would question your competency. And sorry, but a dog does not belong in an ambulance if it is not there for medical purposes to the patient. It's a distraction, a liability, a hazard, and just a plain PITA.

Sorry to be blunt.


----------



## DocHalpin (Feb 2, 2015)

How would me having a service dog make me incompetent..? 

Also, the service dog doesn't have to have any relation/purpose to a patient... With that logic, you could attribute it to every single aspect in life.


----------



## teedubbyaw (Feb 2, 2015)

DocHalpin said:


> How would me having a service dog make me incompetent..?
> 
> Also, the service dog doesn't have to have any relation/purpose to a patient... With that logic, you could attribute it to every single aspect in life.



If you have to rely on a service dog in the back of an ambulance, then sorry, people are going to question your ability to deal with things when SHTF. Since you came here to ask a question and are obviously dissatisfied with the answers, then I suggest you call around and ask your local ambulance companies.


----------



## DocHalpin (Feb 2, 2015)

I'm not dissatisfied with the answer, just dissatisfied with the ignorance of a reply from a person that obviously doesn't know the wide uses of a service dog..


----------



## teedubbyaw (Feb 2, 2015)

DocHalpin said:


> I'm not dissatisfied with the answer, just dissatisfied with the ignorance of a reply from a person that obviously doesn't know the wide uses of a service dog..



I'm sorry you think I'm ignorant for telling you no. Do you act this way every time you don't get your way?

A good friend of mine is an iraq vet with a service dog. I have allowed dogs of PTSD patient's in the ambulance before. I'm well aware of the "use" of a service dog, as you put it. No where here did I question your "use" of a service dog. Now, please, go turn in your applications and discuss having a service dog in the back of an ambulance and let us know what they say.


----------



## Chewy20 (Feb 2, 2015)

DocHalpin said:


> I'm not dissatisfied with the answer, just dissatisfied with the ignorance of a reply from a person that obviously doesn't know the wide uses of a service dog..


 
Trust me, I know the wide uses of a service dog. Been around them my whole life. Call ten companies/departments tomorrow. They will have you answer.


----------



## Trauma Queen (Feb 2, 2015)

I don't think it's ignorance, I think it's a valid point, just stated bluntly.

If you need a service animal, and have received permission, I first want to say good luck, I hope it helps. In this field, even if we haven't dealt with it first hand, we all can understand the concept of severe PTSD, and the tolls it can take. And if you require a service dog to control it, none of us are passing judgement.

But. But, if you cannot control it, and require the dog to get through daily life, you may need to get involved in another line of work. First off, there's no room in the rig for a dog. When things start getting hectic, and you have multiple providers crawling over one another to get stuff done, a dog will be in the way. Also, is the dog expected to follow you on scene? What if another dog it around and attacks your dog? What if you're too busy to handle the dog? What if you have a combative psych patient that injures your dog? And otherwise, are you going to lock the dog in the rig while on scene? What if he gets into something? What happens when you're running crazy all day with calls and have no time to walk the dog? Where will the dog rest?

Its just not a good place to have a dog. I'm sure you've made many sacrifices since you're living with PTSD, but working EMS may be one more sacrifice you need to make.


----------



## DocHalpin (Feb 2, 2015)

"If you have to rely on a service dog in the back of an ambulance" would definitely be a question to a use of a service animal...

Reading in to it, Title III of the ADA requires that places of public accommodation, including health care facilities, modify their policies and practices to permit the use of a service animal by a person with a disability, Unless doing so would create a direct threat to the safety of others or to the facility.

I would tend to believe that although it might be difficult, denying someone the ability to work with a service animal is disability discrimination.


----------



## teedubbyaw (Feb 2, 2015)

Dude, go do it then. Obviously you don't want to listen to us. Let us know when you're working on the truck with your dog.


----------



## Trauma Queen (Feb 2, 2015)

Why ask if you didn't want any answer other than "Yes?" 

With a service animal, you're sole concern is no longer just you, but the dog as well. And if you're willing to allow the dog to be put at severe risk of injury and possible mistreatment, that's on you.


----------



## OnceAnEMT (Feb 2, 2015)

Trauma Queen said:


> With a service animal, you're sole concern is no longer just you, but the dog as well. And if you're willing to allow the dog to be put at severe risk of injury and possible mistreatment, that's on you.



Exactly OP, look at this from a safety stand point, liability and questioning aside. How will the dog be secured? What will you do with the dog when you're driving? How do you prevent that dog from being hurt/hurting someone (you, your partner, or your patient) during a hard stop or turn? How will you explain to your anxious patient that the dog is hypoallergenic, and to your hallucinating patient that the dog is real?

That is my argument for "...Unless doing so would create a direct threat to the safety of others or to the facility". 

As hyperbolic as it may be, there is a reason that line soldiers don't have service dogs. In all seriousness though, you should consider a career involving work dogs (more PD and SAR, less cuddly service). If a companion is what you want, consider the careers that already involve that. Or even as a volunteer. Volunteer K9 SAR is the real deal if you want it to be. That kind of work dog isn't there to take a beating from kiddos, but that just depends on your situation.


----------



## exodus (Feb 2, 2015)

I transported a kitten once that a blacked out ETOH transient had.  It was on a leash the whole time and just slept between her legs.  Albeit, we had animal control waiting for us at the hospital to impound it though as she was unfit to care for it.


----------



## Chewy20 (Feb 2, 2015)

exodus said:


> I transported a kitten once that a blacked out ETOH transient had.  It was on a leash the whole time and just slept between her legs.  Albeit, we had animal control waiting for us at the hospital to impound it though as she was unfit to care for it.



There's a huge difference in the t having a pet in the back. Sometimes they will refuse to go if they can't bring it. With that being said, your department or company will do everything in it's power to not let it happen. 

Another thing is, I work on an ambulance, the last thing I want is my dog back there dealing with the type of people we run on all the time, higher risks of getting the dog sick and IMO would just be a miserable time for the do even if it was allowed. 

Find a way to be away from him/her at work or find another job. Again I'm not trying to bash you, I respect your service and know what PTSD does to people. I know a VERY good doctor who deals with this everyday and is very successful in treating it. She flies out to pts. PM me if you ever need a good doc to talk to.


----------



## akflightmedic (Feb 3, 2015)

OOOPSIE....Wrong thread

Delete me...LOL


----------



## WildlandEMT89 (Feb 3, 2015)

Op. Thank you for your service first of all, and I am deeply sorry you have to deal with such a terrible thing as ptsd.
I just wanted to say that people here aren't trying to shoot you down or anything. 
Ems and ambulance care is all about patient comfort, not provider comfort. What if you have a pt that is afraid of dogs. What about allergies? Even hypoallergenic breeds can affect some people. What about the well being of the dog while on shift? These things are why people are saying you will have a hard time finding an employer to endorse this. They will accept your application and consider you, but why hire someone who is requesting accommodation over someone who is not?
Like others have said, ask around and report back, I'd be very interested in hearing what you find.


----------



## johnrsemt (Feb 9, 2015)

I have had patients who have had allergic reactions due to the dog hair and dander on my tech pants from my dogs at home.  What are you going to do when your service dog creates an allergy problem for a patient?    What is your company going to do when you and your company gets sued because of the Anaphylatic reaction that your patient with a broken arm ends up with due to your service dog in the ambulance with you?
  What are you going to do it your dog gets scared on the scene and jumps out of the truck and gets hit by another vehicle?  Sue yourself since it is your fault that happened?


----------



## johnrsemt (Feb 9, 2015)

Back to the original post;  I have transported multiple service dogs, SAR dogs, and K-9's (both as patients, and as police officer to secure a combative patient {nicest man I ever met when the dog that put him in the ambulance finally got to finish the transport with him})  never had issues.


----------

