# Drug Box Thread (Spun out of Directionless Thread)



## Anonymous (Mar 28, 2012)

Note to self: don't touch a medics drug box without asking.


----------



## Anjel (Mar 28, 2012)

Anonymous said:


> Note to self: don't touch a medics drug box without asking.



Very good note to remember.


----------



## Shishkabob (Mar 28, 2012)

Anonymous said:


> Note to self: don't touch a medics drug box without asking.



If it has narcs in it, you'll lose your fingers.


If it's just the ambulance drugs, meh, go wild.


----------



## Anonymous (Mar 28, 2012)

Oh...it had narcs in it. I went to move it out of the way as we were moving a patient and he said "touch that box one more time and your done" funny thing is he had me go into it to get a glucometer earlier.


----------



## exodus (Mar 28, 2012)

Anonymous said:


> Oh...it had narcs in it. I went to move it out of the way as we were moving a patient and he said "touch that box one more time and your done" funny thing is he had me go into it to get a glucometer earlier.



Sounds like a douche medic.


----------



## bigbaldguy (Mar 28, 2012)

Anonymous said:


> Oh...it had narcs in it. I went to move it out of the way as we were moving a patient and he said "touch that box one more time and your done" funny thing is he had me go into it to get a glucometer earlier.



He keeps the glucometer in the narc box?


----------



## abckidsmom (Mar 28, 2012)

exodus said:


> Sounds like a douche medic.



Yep.  I can't remember a single time I even came close to acting like this.  Random people are in my drug boxes all the time -get this:  GETTING MEDS OUT FOR THE PATIENT.

There is a lot of implied trust, and when something goes missing, everybody whose hands were in there is equally responsible.


----------



## Shishkabob (Mar 28, 2012)

abckidsmom said:


> There is a lot of implied trust, and when something goes missing, everybody whose hands were in there is equally responsible.



Except the medic is MORE equally responsible than all others. h34r:


----------



## DesertMedic66 (Mar 28, 2012)

Anonymous said:


> Oh...it had narcs in it. I went to move it out of the way as we were moving a patient and he said "touch that box one more time and your done" funny thing is he had me go into it to get a glucometer earlier.



Mommy mommy, the EMT touched my box!!!


----------



## exodus (Mar 28, 2012)

Linuss said:


> Except the medic is MORE equally responsible than all others. h34r:



Animal Farm <3


My cockatiel is loving this music... Side note. Sickness sucks.


----------



## medic417 (Mar 28, 2012)

exodus said:


> Sounds like a douche medic.



Nope sounds like a Quality Paramedic that understands how unpleasant a visit from the DEA is.  Trust me you don't want that trouble especially when the problem was someone to stupid to keep their hands off what is no theirs.


----------



## DesertMedic66 (Mar 28, 2012)

medic417 said:


> Nope sounds like a Quality Paramedic that understands how unpleasant a visit from the DEA is.  Trust me you don't want that trouble especially when the problem was someone to stupid to keep their hands off what is no theirs.



Doesn't sound like a Quality paramedic to me. Sounds more like the ParaGod syndrome.


----------



## bigbaldguy (Mar 28, 2012)

medic417 said:


> Nope sounds like a Quality Paramedic that understands how unpleasant a visit from the DEA is.  Trust me you don't want that trouble especially when the problem was someone to stupid to keep their hands off what is no theirs.



It took 100's of thousands of pills, thousands of prescriptions and 15 years of writing bogus scripts before the DEA launched an investigation of a local pill mill. Do you really think they are going to be knocking on a medics door because he can't account for 100mgs of fent.

edit
I can find only one mention on google of an ambulance company being investigated by the DEA for missing narcs and it sounds like they were taken from their central supply not from the bus.


----------



## medic417 (Mar 28, 2012)

firefite said:


> Doesn't sound like a Quality paramedic to me. Sounds more like the ParaGod syndrome.



Nope quality CYA.  Once I sign out the narcs no one is allowed to touch them, if they ignore my orders they are fired.  Once you get responsibility and actually are involved in a DEA investigation because of someone else's stupidity you will change that sad old accusation of Paragod that gets thrown out anytime those of us that do the job say no to you that still only aspire to do the job.


----------



## Epi-do (Mar 28, 2012)

Anonymous said:


> Oh...it had narcs in it. I went to move it out of the way as we were moving a patient and he said "touch that box one more time and your done" funny thing is he had me go into it to get a glucometer earlier.



I am assuming (dangerous, I know) that at some point during the run, he was using something out of the box for that patient, right?  Otherwise, I can't figure out why the narcs would be sitting out in the first place.


----------



## exodus (Mar 28, 2012)

medic417 said:


> Nope sounds like a Quality Paramedic that understands how unpleasant a visit from the DEA is.  Trust me you don't want that trouble especially when the problem was someone to stupid to keep their hands off what is no theirs.



Why aren't the narcs locked in the lockbox or on his person? A drugbox isn't a locked box. The box was also readily available to the pt if he had to move it out of the way while moving the pt.


----------



## medic417 (Mar 28, 2012)

firefite said:


> Doesn't sound like a Quality paramedic to me. Sounds more like the ParaGod syndrome.



Nope quality CYA.  Once I sign out the narcs no one is allowed to touch them, if they ignore my orders they are fired.  Once you get responsibility and actually are involved in a DEA investigation because of someone else's stupidity you will change that sad old accusation of Paragod that gets thrown out anytime those of us that do the job say no to you that still only aspire to do the job.


----------



## DesertMedic66 (Mar 28, 2012)

medic417 said:


> Nope quality CYA.  Once I sign out the narcs no one is allowed to touch them, if they ignore my orders they are fired.  Once you get responsibility and actually are involved in a DEA investigation because of someone else's stupidity you will change that sad old accusation of Paragod that gets thrown out anytime those of us that do the job say no to you that still only aspire to do the job.



So if the narc box is sitting on top of let's say the main response bag and I need to get something out of the main response bag fast then I can't. I'll just turn to the medic "ooh ParaGod, I would really like to get you the Epi but I can't get to the bag because your narcs are on top and god almighty if I touch them then your gonna fire me". Yeah that seems like a good thing to say to my medic partner. 

If you don't want your narcs to be handled by other people then keep them on your person or locked away at all times.


----------



## medic417 (Mar 28, 2012)

bigbaldguy said:


> It took 100's of thousands of pills, thousands of prescriptions and 15 years of writing bogus scripts before the DEA launched an investigation of a local pill mill. Do you really think they are going to be knocking on a medics door because he can't account for 100mgs of fent.
> 
> edit
> I can find only one mention on google of an ambulance company being investigated by the DEA for missing narcs and it sounds like they were taken from their central supply not from the bus.



They do not publically list all investigations amigo.  The one I was involved with was for 10mg morphine that actually ended up not being missing just handled by someone that should not have and then documented improperly.  DEA did investigate.  Was an extremely long day having to provide proof of every purchase, every use, and every waste for the past several years.  In the end no charges.  Very unpleasant time and was not my fault.  Live through that and you will never allow anyone near your narcs.  

I speak of what I know and have lived.  This has nothing to do with being a Paragod.


----------



## bigbaldguy (Mar 28, 2012)

medic417 said:


> They do not publically list all investigations amigo.  The one I was involved with was for 10mg morphine that actually ended up not being missing just handled by someone that should not have and then documented improperly.  DEA did investigate.  Was an extremely long day having to provide proof of every purchase, every use, and every waste for the past several years.  In the end no charges.  Very unpleasant time and was not my fault.  Live through that and you will never allow anyone near your narcs.
> 
> I speak of what I know and have lived.  This has nothing to do with being a Paragod.



Sounds like how I feel about IRS audits.

Still you would thing there would be more than one mention of an investigation of it on google. I've heard of state level investigations involving missing drugs.


----------



## medic417 (Mar 28, 2012)

bigbaldguy said:


> Sounds like how I feel about IRS audits.
> 
> Still you would thing there would be more than one mention of an investigation of it on google. I've heard of state level investigations involving missing drugs.



The state investigated as well.  Was a long couple of months during the entire process when you include internal, state, and fed investigations.  It may be a rare event but I will not allow anything I control to lead to any investigation.


----------



## Anjel (Mar 28, 2012)

We get pre packaged drug boxes.that are sealed from the county. When you get to the hospital you leave the open box and take a new one. 

My teacher said his box was missing fent and his partner didnt catch it when he turned it back in. He had the DEA at the station 4 hours later.


----------



## Tigger (Mar 28, 2012)

medic417 said:


> Nope quality CYA.  Once I sign out the narcs no one is allowed to touch them, if they ignore my orders they are fired.  Once you get responsibility and actually are involved in a DEA investigation because of someone else's stupidity you will change that sad old accusation of Paragod that gets thrown out anytime those of us that do the job say no to you that still only aspire to do the job.


Wouldn't the easiest way to avoid this be to just keep the damn things on your person? If you're leaving them out where they can be "touched" by others, how can that be considered secure?


----------



## Shishkabob (Mar 28, 2012)

Tigger said:


> Wouldn't the easiest way to avoid this be to just keep the damn things on your person? If you're leaving them out where they can be "touched" by others, how can that be considered secure?



I'd argue the "easiest way" is for people to not touch things they shouldn't.


----------



## medic417 (Mar 28, 2012)

Tigger said:


> Wouldn't the easiest way to avoid this be to just keep the damn things on your person? If you're leaving them out where they can be "touched" by others, how can that be considered secure?



The amount of narcs we carry will not fit in a pocket. If I place the box on shelf to do the thing that I do, it is in no ones way. Thus if they touch they are where they do not belong.


----------



## jjesusfreak01 (Mar 28, 2012)

medic417 said:


> The amount of narcs we carry will not fit in a pocket. If I place the box on shelf to do the thing that I do, it is in no ones way. Thus if they touch they are where they do not belong.



Why don't we keep the narcs double locked in a cabinet where the DEA requires we put them and the emt can't get to them?

Everywhere i've worked the narcs are in the medics hands until they get locked into the cabinet. You don't have to worry about them when they're locked up.


----------



## medic417 (Mar 28, 2012)

jjesusfreak01 said:


> Why don't we keep the narcs double locked in a cabinet where the DEA requires we put them and the emt can't get to them?
> 
> Everywhere i've worked the narcs are in the medics hands until they get locked into the cabinet. You don't have to worry about them when they're locked up.



If they are out they are being used or inventory is taking place.

How about a link to where it says 2 locks required?


----------



## NomadicMedic (Mar 28, 2012)

I'm curious if the OP touched the "narcs box", or just the actual ALS bag. For example, we keep our narcs in our house bag, as we're a chase truck system. I frequently have the EMTs or my partner move/carry or unlock the bag when I need to get something out of it. No big deal.

However... from the tone of the post, it sounds like maybe the OP was rooting around in the medic's bag and it irritated him and he had to warn him to "stay out of it." It's a pain when folks are digging through your stuff. I've had to warn EMTs to stay out of my ALS gear on calls. 

My rule is simple. If you're going to get something out of my gear, ask me first or wait for me to ask you to get it.


----------



## fast65 (Mar 28, 2012)

n7lxi said:


> I'm curious if the OP touched the "narcs box", or just the actual ALS bag. For example, we keep our narcs in our house bag, as we're a chase truck system. I frequently have the EMTs or my partner move/carry or unlock the bag when I need to get something out of it. No big deal.
> 
> However... from the tone of the post, it sounds like maybe the OP was rooting around in the medic's bag and it irritated him and he had to warn him to "stay out of it." It's a pain when folks are digging through your stuff. I've had to warn EMTs to stay out of my ALS gear on calls.
> 
> *My rule is simple. If you're going to get something out of my gear, ask me first or wait for me to ask you to get it.*



Same here, I don't mind someone riffling around in my drug box if I ask them to get something, but if they're just reaching around trying to find something without asking me, or without my request, I get irritated.  

That being said, we keep our narcotics double locked on the ambulance until they're needed. The only time I have them out of the lock box is when I'm using them, or think I may need to use them (for example: I'll take a vial of Versed in with me on when dispatched for a seizure).


----------



## Handsome Robb (Mar 28, 2012)

We have a narc box double locked in the truck with a duplicate box in the medic's pocket. 

I've handled my medic's narc box plenty of times but we have a great deal of trust between us. With that said I don't just snatch it up and start playing, I ask and have a reason for what I'm doing or he asks me to do something. Generally though I'll get handed a syringe and a vial and "I want this much of this, read, set go!"

I don't think the medic necessarily went about it the best way in the description provided by the OP but I'm pretty sure my partner would have a similar reaction. Especially if it was a student.

The medic is ultimately responsible for the narcs but I'm responsible as well. I witness him signing every narc in and out, it's my fingerprint that actually opens the Pyxis machine, not his. His just sets the process in motion. Mine opens each individual box.


----------



## Jon (Mar 29, 2012)

n7lxi said:


> I'm curious if the OP touched the "narcs box", or just the actual ALS bag. For example, we keep our narcs in our house bag, as we're a chase truck system. I frequently have the EMTs or my partner move/carry or unlock the bag when I need to get something out of it. No big deal.
> 
> However... from the tone of the post, it sounds like maybe the OP was rooting around in the medic's bag and it irritated him and he had to warn him to "stay out of it." It's a pain when folks are digging through your stuff. I've had to warn EMTs to stay out of my ALS gear on calls.
> 
> My rule is simple. If you're going to get something out of my gear, ask me first or wait for me to ask you to get it.



I think this was the problem.

ALS gear bags have just as many names as ambulances... Drug kits, first in bags, house bags, etc. OP, can you clarify as to WHAT you were yelled at for touching?

As for my narcs? Mine are locked in the end pouch on the bag, with a seal and a padlock, and the only padlock key is held by me and other ALS co-worker.


----------



## MS Medic (Mar 29, 2012)

Jon said:


> As for my narcs? Mine are locked in the end pouch on the bag, with a seal and a padlock, and the only padlock key is held by me and other ALS co-worker.



If they are in a bag, what is the point of a lock? Couldn't someone steal them by cutting a hole in the bag?

At the first service I worked for which was a urban location, we carried small amounts of narcs that stayed on our person when we were on the truck. While off duty, they were kept in your narc locker in the crew room at the station. This was a large bank of what basicly amounted to small P.O. Boxes that had combo locks rather than keys.

Where I work at now, we keep larger amounts on a lock box on the truck.


----------



## Tigger (Mar 29, 2012)

medic417 said:


> If they are out they are being used or inventory is taking place.
> 
> How about a link to where it says 2 locks required?



The DEA diversion website is not working. Unfortunately I can not find any statue requiring it, though I have found many departments' online SOPs that "by law narcotics must be kept under double lock or key, or on one's person."


----------



## MS Medic (Mar 29, 2012)

Tigger said:


> The DEA diversion website is not working. Unfortunately I can not find any statue requiring it, though I have found many departments' online SOPs that "by law narcotics must be kept under double lock or key, or on one's person."



That's always what I've heard as well.


----------



## Jon (Mar 29, 2012)

MS Medic said:


> If they are in a bag, what is the point of a lock? Couldn't someone steal them by cutting a hole in the bag?
> 
> At the first service I worked for which was a urban location, we carried small amounts of narcs that stayed on our person when we were on the truck. While off duty, they were kept in your narc locker in the crew room at the station. This was a large bank of what basicly amounted to small P.O. Boxes that had combo locks rather than keys.
> 
> Where I work at now, we keep larger amounts on a lock box on the truck.



Yes, they can be cut out. And that actually happened recently when a BLS crew left the medic's bag sitting outside his car - he came out of the hospital to find it hacked open.

One of my services actually uses a lockbox inside of the pocket, while the others use a box that can have a seal applied to it.

Is it going to keep a determined thief away from it? No. But our bags are rarely out of our sight outside of the station/truck, so is it that much of a worry?



Tigger said:


> The DEA diversion website is not working. Unfortunately I can not find any statue requiring it, though I have found many departments' online SOPs that "by law narcotics must be kept under double lock or key, or on one's person."



I've always been told the same. And that a seal can count as a "lock" and a locked cabinet counts as a lock.


----------



## MedicBrew (Mar 29, 2012)

bigbaldguy said:


> It took 100's of thousands of pills, thousands of prescriptions and 15 years of writing bogus scripts before the DEA launched an investigation of a local pill mill. Do you really think they are going to be knocking on a medics door because he can't account for 100mgs of fent.
> 
> edit
> I can find only one mention on google of an ambulance company being investigated by the DEA for missing narcs and it sounds like they were taken from their central supply not from the bus.



I've only heard of 2 and they were both in Texas. Both had some serious fines, and 1 had some serious jail time and they went after the M.D. But that was for a signifiant amount, something like 100+ doses.

I’ve had the unfortunate experience of working for a service where Narcs were stolen. After speaking with state officials at length, they indicated that the theft of narcs is prevalent in EMS it’s just not reported to the media. As a matter of fact, they go to great lengths to black it out. 

The DEA was only involved with a phone conference call. 

The problem is there are no real regulations directly aimed at EMS. They mostly cover manufactures, Hospitals and pharmacies. Most of EMS pretty much cannibalize the rules for the best fit in an effort to stay in compliance.  Some states have specific requirements, but most do not.


----------



## Hockey (Mar 29, 2012)

I had a basic crack open my drug box last month without me even asking to do anything.  I just sat there and stared at him till he realized what he did.


----------



## Anonymous (Mar 29, 2012)

n7lxi said:


> I'm curious if the OP touched the "narcs box", or just the actual ALS bag. For example, we keep our narcs in our house bag, as we're a chase truck system. I frequently have the EMTs or my partner move/carry or unlock the bag when I need to get something out of it. No big deal.
> 
> However... from the tone of the post, it sounds like maybe the OP was rooting around in the medic's bag and it irritated him and he had to warn him to "stay out of it." It's a pain when folks are digging through your stuff. I've had to warn EMTs to stay out of my ALS gear on calls.
> 
> My rule is simple. If you're going to get something out of my gear, ask me first or wait for me to ask you to get it.



Actually I am not 100% positive it had Narcs in it and by the posts here it sounds like it did not. It was his box (like a tackle box) which contained the glucometer he asked me to get for him. After getting a reading on the patient I went to close up the box as it was blocking the hall way we were moving the patient down and he jumped on me about touching his box. Asked my FTO if he was serious and he said "dude, it has morphine in it. of course he was serious." I can understand why I suppose. Learned that one the hard way.


----------



## NomadicMedic (Mar 30, 2012)

Anonymous said:


> Actually I am not 100% positive it had Narcs in it and by the posts here it sounds like it did not. It was his box (like a tackle box) which contained the glucometer he asked me to get for him. After getting a reading on the patient I went to close up the box as it was blocking the hall way we were moving the patient down and he jumped on me about touching his box. Asked my FTO if he was serious and he said "dude, it has morphine in it. of course he was serious." I can understand why I suppose. Learned that one the hard way.



If it had morphine in it, than you can be 100% sure it had narcs in it. 

Just sayin'.


----------



## Trashtruck (Mar 30, 2012)

medic417 said:


> They do not publically list all investigations amigo.  The one I was involved with was for 10mg morphine that actually ended up not being missing just handled by someone that should not have and then documented improperly.  DEA did investigate.  Was an extremely long day having to provide proof of every purchase, every use, and every waste for the past several years.  In the end no charges.  Very unpleasant time and was not my fault.  Live through that and you will never allow anyone near your narcs.
> 
> I speak of what I know and have lived.  This has nothing to do with being a Paragod.




I guess it depends on where you live. Here, 300 vials of Valium auto-injectors(we have certain vehicles for WMD that carry a TON of Valium and 2-PAM...We only carry 30 vials of each in our trucks) were stolen in one incident. In another, somebody broke into a drug storage box(not the on-board box) and stole 10 vials of versed and 10 vials of morphine. And numerous times, the on-board drugs have gone missing. The police investigate, but that's as far as it goes as far as I know. They are cracking down now, though. We now have electronic keys. We have to update them every 2 weeks on our officers computer. It downloads everytime we open the WMD box and drug box. It assures that we are checking our narcs and also provides accountability if they go missing. The can simply look at who had last access to them via the downloaded info. from the key.


----------



## jjesusfreak01 (Mar 31, 2012)

Hockey said:


> I had a basic crack open my drug box last month without me even asking to do anything.  I just sat there and stared at him till he realized what he did.



I guess its different everywhere. One system I worked in kept two drug boxes in our jump bag. One had 95% of the drugs, and the other contained the other 5% and 1 dose of each controlled med in a tagged compartment (the rest were locked in the cabinet). I would regularly handle both boxes without the medic so much as blinking at me. Most of the time the jump bag would be hung over my shoulder and in my care, didn't matter. I usually worked with a different medic each shift. 

I don't think I heard about any narcs going missing while I was working there, however, there was a huge stink when someone lost a set of Knox Box keys.


----------



## Hockey (Mar 31, 2012)

jjesusfreak01 said:


> I guess its different everywhere. One system I worked in kept two drug boxes in our jump bag. One had 95% of the drugs, and the other contained the other 5% and 1 dose of each controlled med in a tagged compartment (the rest were locked in the cabinet). I would regularly handle both boxes without the medic so much as blinking at me. Most of the time the jump bag would be hung over my shoulder and in my care, didn't matter. I usually worked with a different medic each shift.
> 
> I don't think I heard about any narcs going missing while I was working there, however, there was a huge stink when someone lost a set of Knox Box keys.



We have a big plano tackle box style drug box.  One area, they keep narcs in another sealed bag, in the area I am now, they just keep it in the general area.  I like the sep sealed bag


----------

