# Treating a rapist.



## andyrad (Dec 10, 2008)

I've been posed with a question I don't have the answer to as I have no formal experience working with an emergency service. 

If your patient happens to be a rapist of someone, anyone, I know your duty is to be unbiased and treat everyone equally, but seriously. How do you do that when you're overcome with emotion and just want to hurt this scum-lord? What do you do in this situation? Someone said "Oh I'd just pour alcohol in his wound or something to make it sting". Obviously, that's wrong but what DO you do?


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## JPINFV (Dec 10, 2008)

Treat him like any other patient. If you (generic you) set out to hurt a patient, regardless of his or her crimes or alleged crimes, then you are a lower piece of scum than your patient.


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## Medic9 (Dec 10, 2008)

You can't think about the crime, just the patient. You treat them to the best of your ability, get them to a higher level of care and blot out the memory.


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## traumateam1 (Dec 10, 2008)

> I've been posed with a question I don't have the answer to as I have no formal experience working with an emergency service.
> 
> If your patient happens to be a rapist of someone, anyone, I know your duty is to be unbiased and treat everyone equally, but seriously. How do you do that when you're overcome with emotion and just want to hurt this scum-lord? What do you do in this situation? Someone said "Oh I'd just pour alcohol in his wound or something to make it sting". Obviously, that's wrong but what DO you do?




I guess this is just like the drunk guy vs. family vehicle MVC. Do you leave the drunk guy and attend to him last? Or do you give him the same care and compassion that you are giving the family?

I _personally_ would treat the rapist the same way I'd treat an elderly lady, with the same care and compassion. I try not to let my emotions get in the way of my job. If this guy is in trouble and he needs me to do my job, than I'm not gonna sit there and say "well you know, he did rape a poor woman.. I'm not gonna help him, call another unit for this scum bag", I am going to try and put my feelings and emotions aside and help him. However, if I can't, if my feelings are so strongly against this guy, and I would be doing more harm than good, than I'd switch roles and let my partner attend, or call another unit for him.

It's really hard to say over an internet forum. There are no emotions right now, it's just a "what would you do..." thing. I don't actually know how I'd handle this type of call, but I do hope that I would be able to put my feelings/emotions aside and do the job that I am being paid to do - help those in need.

With all that being said.. I cannot see why I wouldn't treat him the same way I'd treat any other patient.


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## VentMedic (Dec 10, 2008)

andyrad said:


> If your patient happens to be a rapist of someone, anyone, I know your duty is to be unbiased and treat everyone equally, but seriously. How do you do that when you're overcome with emotion and just want to hurt this scum-lord? What do you do in this situation? Someone said "Oh I'd just pour alcohol in his wound or something to make it sting". Obviously, that's wrong but what DO you do?


 
You do not become the scum-lord they are and this applies to all. It doesn't matter who you are treating, if you lose your composure, they have the upper hand and thus, may have acheived the reactions this person is looking for...that you are no better than him/her. 

However,remember the "innocent until proven guilty" phrase. 

quote by traumateam1


> I guess this is just like the drunk guy vs. family vehicle MVC. Do you leave the drunk guy and attend to him last? Or do you give him the same care and compassion that you are giving the family?


We had lengthy discussions a few months ago about the EMT who was just convicted for manslaughter of 2 people while driving under the influence. Several took her side so not everything is as clear cut as some would think. 

That being said, work a city hospital that not only gets the freshly arrested but also has a whole wing dedicated to convicted felons or others from the various jails. 

Also, think about our healthcare system where the average Joe Public may not have the proper insurance to get a heart transplant but an inmate serving life for murder does. 

Through all of this, remember you are the professional.


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## traumateam1 (Dec 10, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> You do not become the scum-lord they are and this applies to all. It doesn't matter who you are treating, if you lose your composure, they have the upper hand and thus, may have acheived the reactions this person is looking for...that you are no better than him/her.
> 
> However,remember the "innocent until proven guilty" phrase.
> 
> ...



Vent, please don't get me wrong. I would not ignore the drunk or give the family a higher priority than the drunk person. It was just a question.


We actually had that as a scenario, it was kinda shocking to see how many people wanted to leave the drunk person and tent to the kid who had been ejected from the mini van and the family.


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## Sasha (Dec 10, 2008)

I treat him or her like any other mentally ill patient.


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## BossyCow (Dec 10, 2008)

We ran multiple calls on some significant end of life issues on a convicted sex offender/child molester. He was a known predator and on the sex offender registry. He had a very violent history. 

There were some responders who had a more difficult time of it than others. There were some who would not respond to calls to his address. But, a pt is a pt is a pt. Knowing too much about them is sometimes a challenge, but hey.. how many patients do you think you see that have this kind of history that you just don't know about? 

I witnessed this horrible human being, die a slow miserable, painful death from bowel cancer, alone, with no one but paid strangers to care for him at the end. Sort of makes you believe that what goes around comes around.


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## VentMedic (Dec 10, 2008)

I wasn't making a direct reference to you Sasha.

Every thread we have had on drinking and driving as an EMT(P) on this forum has gotten locked due to the differing opinions. We've even had threads on how to run IVs fluids in yourself to get ready for work quicker so you won't appear drunk and hung over. Many of us have probably looked the other way when it comes to substance abuse or a co-worker abusing their spouse.
There have been too many in this profession that have been accused and convicted of the same crimes, many of which were committed on patients, for us to get too judgmental. 

I think the Washington DC EMT started a cascade of events when it was assumed someone was drunk. 

However, patient care is patient care.


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## Sasha (Dec 10, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> I wasn't making a direct reference to you Sasha.
> 
> Every thread we have had on drinking and driving as an EMT(P) on this forum has gotten locked due to the differing opinions. We've even had threads on how to run IVs fluids in yourself to get ready for work quicker so you won't appear drunk and hung over. Many of us have probably looked the other way when it comes to substance abuse or a co-worker abusing their spouse.
> There have been too many in this profession that have been accused and convicted of the same crimes, many of which were committed on patients, for us to get too judgmental.
> ...



Where did I say you were making a direct reference?


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## Code 3 (Dec 10, 2008)

Sasha said:


> Where did I say you were making a direct reference?



You didn't, she meant to say traumateam1.


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## Onceamedic (Dec 10, 2008)

I treated a guy whose face had been on the front page of the paper for molesting children.  (He went into delirium tremors in jail and had to be cared for. )  Having been molested as a child, I know the pain, grief and agony these a$$holes cause for their defenseless victims, not to mention years of expensive therapy, drugs etc.  When I treated this patient, I was very professional.  I was polite and got the job done.  I even inserted a foley and made very sure that the job got done efficiently and with minimum discomfort for the patient.  (it was in an ED).  What the patient didn't get was one of the things I am very proud to offer the vast majority of my patients -  an extension of my heart.  I make an effort to go the extra mile - to go beyond what is expected and offer understanding, or humor, or a prayer - whatever it is that they can benefit from.  Bottom line - did the molester get my very best?  Yes - the very best that I was able to offer to him.  Was it as good as other patients get? - probably not.  I can live with that.


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## fma08 (Dec 10, 2008)

andyrad said:


> I've been posed with a question I don't have the answer to as I have no formal experience working with an emergency service.
> 
> If your patient happens to be a rapist of someone, anyone, I know your duty is to be unbiased and treat everyone equally, but seriously. How do you do that when you're overcome with emotion and just want to hurt this scum-lord? What do you do in this situation? Someone said "Oh I'd just pour alcohol in his wound or something to make it sting". Obviously, that's wrong but what DO you do?



Treat him/her like any other patient first, then yourself with a double whiskey on the rocks after the shift


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## MedicPrincess (Dec 10, 2008)

We have a Federal Prison in our county.  This houses people who have committed some of the worst crimes you can imagine, and some you never want to imagine.  And we run calls out of it.

They are a patient.  They have a medical problem, address that problem.  

The hardest ones for me (as well as plenty of others) are the child abusers.  My now 10 year old son was physically abused, 1 time, by my then fiance, 7 years ago.  Today, when I pick up someone who has injured a child for an instant I still see my son laying there on the couch when I got home and the pathetic suicide attempt by my Ex when he realized what was about to come his way.  But in the end, I still have this patient in front of me.

Treat the patients current problem(s).  Take them to the hospital.


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## mycrofft (Dec 10, 2008)

*I work with nothing but criminals.*

I do not find out what their charges are because then I can never be accused of altering their care due to my knowledge of their charges.

Not my job to treat them differently, I don't pour my heart into their cases but into getting the best care out to all of them given our setting and despite their screwed up efforts to thwart us. ANd despite their con games threats etc, I leave at 3, they stay, I win, so no arguement needed. 

You have to shut off the emotions same as you do with an ugly, stinky or obnoxious call.


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## ttoude (Dec 11, 2008)

Professionalism


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## Jon (Dec 11, 2008)

ttoude said:


> Professionalism


Wow. 1-word post, over 10-letter minimum... and it is probably the best answer.

You will need to set aside your personal opinions to deal with some patients, if you want to make a career of EMS. You may need to yell, scream, or go to the range and shoot targets to calm down after a call like this - but you've got to manage the call until it is over.


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## ttoude (Dec 11, 2008)

One universal thread in life as well as all religions is "What goes around comes around". Resisting the urge to exact judgment when its not our place to do so can feel like carrying a ton of bricks. 

I routinely came into contact with child sex offenders at a previous job. What kept me in line is that faith that the what he/she gave out is what she/he will get back. 

Then I go out and burn up some tires at the race track then I feel better.


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## eric2068 (Jan 4, 2009)

*Treating a rapist*

Regardless of your own personal opinions, that person is still a human being. When I was going through EMT class, and Medic calss, we were taught to be objective, never subjective. We have a women's prison in our response area, and to be perfectly honest, 99% of the time, I get less problems with them, than I do with the general public, and some of these ladies are in for murder. So, be objective, be kind, but if you can't do that for whatever reason, be professional. Never let them know how you feel.


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## mycrofft (Jan 4, 2009)

*Everyone remember*

Today's inmate is tomorrow's citizen. Actually, still a citizen while locked up, but will later be back on the street. Todays'inmate gets out, sore at "The System". Inmate also has friends, relatives, and kids who are going to be against the correctional situation because it's no fun and everyone in jail is innocent. This makes for an ever expanding base of people baying for LE, correctional and any authority figure's throat. (Add on their ignorant sympathizers from the general public).

Last: What would you do if it was your kid who was convicted of statutory rape or hitting a nun and some blind kids in a crosswalk? What kind of care would you want for him or her? Or yourself?


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## VentMedic (Jan 4, 2009)

The points made from the previous posts also lead to another potential problem that can arise from the treatment and attitude the patient receives in the field. The more you get a patient angered, disturbed or frustrated in the field, the more likely they will be to carry that anger and assault any healthcare worker they come in contact with. That includes MDs, RNs and all the other hospital personnel who may have to continue to care for this patient for several days. I have seen several crews bring in patients and continue to taunt them even when they should have moved away after delivering the patient to the ED. Often combative patients from drugs, alcohol or psychosis won't have an LEO with them and the hospital staff must contend with a patient made even more angry by the EMS providers who some walk away with a satisfied smile that "they got that patient good".


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## Airwaygoddess (Jan 4, 2009)

*Key word to work with........*

As sick as it can make me feel that another human being could do so much harm to another, the key word for me is at that time they are a patient, and it is my responsibility to that patient and to my profession and to myself to give the best care possible.   I will sometimes wonder what happened to them to become so broken...........-_-


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## MJordan2121 (Jan 4, 2009)

Treat like you would any other patient. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law...


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## Noctis Lucis Caelum (Jan 4, 2009)

This comes back to the basic of EMT responsibility.
We're here to treat not judge, although it would be a tough situation.


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## downunderwunda (Jan 6, 2009)

Sasha said:


> I treat him or her like any other mentally ill patient.



How would you treat a mentally ill patient?

Why are the mentally ill any different to any other patient we treat? Their illness is of the mind, that does not make them a rapist or any other criminal. 

Remember the World Health Organisation rates that Mental Illness will be the second highest killer worldwide by 2020 behind trauma.


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## Lone Star (Feb 4, 2009)

It's irrelevant what they've been accused of doing, what they've been witnessed doing, or admit to have done.  You're not a judge, part of a jury or in a position to be executioner.  Your job is clear...treat the patient, leave your personal feelings at the station and do your job to the best of your ability and education.

If you can't separate yourself from your feelings, or the need to 'make them pay', you need to turn in your credentials and leave this profession!


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## Paulie_G (Mar 11, 2009)

*Rapists*

No I wouldn't treat her.  I would rather risk a lawsuit, my career and screw up my life to make a point.


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## Sasha (Mar 11, 2009)

Paulie_G said:


> No I wouldn't treat her.  I would rather risk a lawsuit, my career and screw up my life to make a point.



Why?

10char


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## Paulie_G (Mar 11, 2009)

*A joke*

That was sarcasm.  I would treat whoever needed it.


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## Sasha (Mar 11, 2009)

Paulie_G said:


> That was sarcasm.  I would treat whoever needed it.



Sarcasm does not come across well in written text.


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## trevor1189 (Mar 11, 2009)

traumateam1 said:


> I guess this is just like the drunk guy vs. family vehicle MVC. Do you leave the drunk guy and attend to him last? Or do you give him the same care and compassion that you are giving the family?
> 
> I _personally_ would treat the rapist the same way I'd treat an elderly lady, with the same care and compassion. I try not to let my emotions get in the way of my job. If this guy is in trouble and he needs me to do my job, than I'm not gonna sit there and say "well you know, he did rape a poor woman.. I'm not gonna help him, call another unit for this scum bag", I am going to try and put my feelings and emotions aside and help him. However, if I can't, if my feelings are so strongly against this guy, and I would be doing more harm than good, than I'd switch roles and let my partner attend, or call another unit for him.
> 
> ...


I don't have it in me to hurt someone else no matter what they did. So rapist, treat like any other patient.

As for the Drunk driver vs. Family I would definitely be caring for children first unless it was really obvious they were ok and the other person was critically injured. I have a big thing against people driving drunk and feel no sympathy personally, they made a decision to drive drunk. They could have chosen to call a cab or a friend to drive. Going through high school and seeing what drunk drivers do or what happens to them, there are no excuses to put yourself in that situation. Sorry, end of rant.


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## fortsmithman (Mar 11, 2009)

Instead of highjacking this thread to discuss impaired drivers I started one on the subject.
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=11736


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## Silverstone (Mar 13, 2009)

I had to treat a middle-aged male that murdered his mother and stuffed her in a shed for over a month until he bragged about killing her to his s/o who turned him into the Police.  He hung himself in his jail-cell with his bed sheets.  I actually saved his life, until he died from a pneumonia in the ICU.

I could have called him on scene cause he was in Asystole, but I didn't.  I gave him my very best, and attempted to save his life.  Did I know who he was?  Yes.  Did I know what he had done?  Yes.  Did it cloud my judgement and make me treat him like the piece of :censored::censored::censored::censored: he was?  No.

Try not to let your emotions take control.  You do that, you're in the wrong profession.


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## Streetdoc740 (Mar 13, 2009)

Its very simple. I am there to attend to any injuries or illnesses they have not be social. I have a job to do I don't have to be personable.


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## IrishEMT (Mar 21, 2009)

My first priority is my own safety and my second is not getting sued. If the scene is safe for me, then I don't want to risk a lawsuit because I didn't feel like treating the patient. 

That being said, part of "not getting sued" is if I don't trust myself around the patient (think if I had been close with the victim), then it is in everyone's best interest if I remove myself from the scene and allow the rest of my crew to administer patient care, I'll drive or do Fetch-and-Carry.


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## curt (Mar 26, 2009)

I'm going to do my job, as well as what's expected of me. It's not part of my training, my duty, or what I'm getting paid for to right wrongs- my purpose is to help people recover from or survive medical emergencies. If you want to dish out justice, be a police officer. This guy might indeed be an almighty screw-up, but it's not my role to punish him for that unless he's putting my life or someone else's in real and immediate danger.


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## mace85 (May 11, 2009)

I would treat them to the best of my ability. I might not like it, and may not be as friendly and outgoing as I am with other patients I deal with. But he is getting the best care I can deliver as do my other patients. 

I spent too much time studying more than I need to for my Basic card, and too much time learning anatomy and disease process to lose my lunch ticket because some loser filed a complaint with the state. Let's face it, if this guys in prison he probably has more rights than we do. Which means some attorney is out there looking to be a hero and represent him when he sues you, your service, and the level of government that has him in custody. I worked to hard to let a professional loser take it away from me.


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## 2easy4u (May 11, 2009)

*Same Care*

Everyone gets the same care. It doesn't matter who or what they are or what they have done. They all get the same care.
To do anything else would be playing God. I'm not, and your not, and nobody else is God, so don't ever go there. 
This is how we are able to look at ourselves in the mirror each day, because we don't play God.


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## exodus (May 11, 2009)

I treat prisoners all the time, we have the State Prison contract. the only difference between them and other patients is that they are in handcuffs.


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## firemedic7982 (May 12, 2009)

A pt. is a pt. 

Irregardless of what their past transgressions may / may not be. 

None of us are perfect.


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## HotelCo (May 12, 2009)

andyrad said:


> I've been posed with a question I don't have the answer to as I have no formal experience working with an emergency service.
> 
> If your patient happens to be a rapist of someone, anyone, I know your duty is to be unbiased and treat everyone equally, but seriously. How do you do that when you're overcome with emotion and just want to hurt this scum-lord? What do you do in this situation? Someone said "Oh I'd just pour alcohol in his wound or something to make it sting". Obviously, that's wrong but what DO you do?



Same treatment as everyone else. Doesn't matter what they did.


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## parapaulieFL (May 14, 2009)

*ignore it*

Yeah, you just have to ignore it. We have a job to do and we MUST treat everyone the same no matter creed, color, religion, etc. That's why the only history we are concerned with is the medical one. You can open your self up for tons of lawsuits and scrutiny if you are caught being biased.


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## Shishkabob (May 14, 2009)

If their victim needs the same amount of treatment, you bet your booty that I'll treat the victim before the aggressor, just like I'm sure most other people would too.



But, if it's JUST the rapist, then yea, nothing gets changed.  I wont be happy doing it, wont make small talk, and wont make them comfortable, but I won't neglect my job.


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## Ridryder911 (May 14, 2009)

I have not read all of the posts, so sorry if this is a repeat statement. Really, are you sure they are a "rapists"? I don't know how many times I have responded to "possible sexual assaults" (as rape is legal convicted term) and to later find out that it was consensual. 

Yes, there is brutality out there, but before judging from the beginning, try not to have tunnel vision and make a wrong assumption. 

R/r 911


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## CAOX3 (May 15, 2009)

Linuss said:


> If their victim needs the same amount of treatment, you bet your booty that I'll treat the victim before the aggressor, just like I'm sure most other people would too.
> 
> 
> 
> But, if it's JUST the rapist, then yea, nothing gets changed.  I wont be happy doing it, wont make small talk, *and wont make them comfortable,* but I won't neglect my job.



Isnt that part of you job?  I echo Rids statement, there are always two sides to ever story.  

A pateint is a patient is a patient.


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## HotelCo (May 15, 2009)

CAOX3 said:


> A pateint is a patient is a patient.



Agreed.

(10 char)


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## Shishkabob (May 15, 2009)

CAOX3 said:


> Isnt that part of you job?  I echo Rids statement, there are always two sides to ever story.



Comfortable as in making them feel like they are the best person in the world.


No, it is not my job, is not in any job duties I've ever seen, and it holds true for all felonious criminals.


I'm not going to be like "YOU'RE A HORRIBLE PERSON", but uncomfortable silences suffice.


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## mycrofft (May 16, 2009)

*This IS a repeat comment sort of.*

Not only is it proper to treat all pt's the same, it is better NOT to know anything negative about them. whether alleged, real, or even confessed. That way not only are you more likely to act profesionally, it becomes nearly impossible for the patient to successfully sue you for maltreating them due to this knowledge.

Other than perhaps very young children, I guarantee you that every patient, and maybe you and your coworkers, each have some dark episode which could prejudice care by whackers and caregivers on an ego trip. Treat us all as well as you want to be treated. Golden Rule.


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## Shishkabob (May 16, 2009)

mycrofft said:


> you ... have some dark episode




Not me.   I'm perfect.


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## Medic (May 16, 2009)

From what I heard and have seen on T.V & in news paper articles, is that. Sex offenders get it really rough and are frowned upon in prisons. 

Why should you be sued and fired etc for treating a pt badly when most likely get the rough treatment in prison.

If you treat a inmate badly s/he might hold a grudge against you and pay a visit when s/he gets out.

Treat the pt hold nothing against them, you will get a bitter taste in the mouth, but in the end as said befor pt care is pt care.


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## VentMedic (May 16, 2009)

Medic said:


> From what I heard and have seen on T.V & in news paper articles, is that. Sex offenders get it really rough and are frowned upon in prisons.


 
If the patient is now in prison, that means they have been found guilty and convicted. At the time you pick the patient up at scene, the judicial process is just starting. If you screw up, that patient/rapist may not go to prison.



> Why should you be sued and fired etc for treating a pt badly when most likely get the rough treatment in prison.


Those treating the rapist badly in prison will be other prisoners. Do we relate to ourselves in EMS on the same level as criminals?



> If you treat a inmate badly s/he might hold a grudge against you and pay a visit when s/he gets out.


They can more easily seek revenge by having their attorney file a complaint against you with PD, your employer and your state licensing agency. Except for some the dumb criminal acts they commit, prisoners turn out to be rather intelligent with the help of a good attorney and a jail house lawyer.



> Treat the pt hold nothing against them, you will get a bitter taste in the mouth, but in the end as said befor pt care is pt care.


 
Agreed, but as for that bitter taste, reserve your judgment until all the facts are in. Some crime scenes are chaotic and appearances can be deceiving.


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## Medic (May 16, 2009)

Adding to this, if the sex abuser is treated badly and faces a loss of a limb, permanent disability or even death from incompetence, then they are proven innocent how would you feel. No doubt in my mind you will feel bad on top of this they will further be investigations into reasons behind injuries and that can lead to charges, licenses been taken away etc.

thats just my 10c worth.


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## cprguys (May 17, 2009)

*Just to add to the Scenario*

As a paramedic in Auburn, NY we faced one of the toughest calls involving an ER Nurse.  Now we in the EMS community know that we become close to the ER staff since we see them every night we work.  A few months ago there was a call of a shooting in a lower than desired part of the city.  This rarely happens as we have had 3 shooting in the past 4 years.  Upon arrival at the scene it found the victim to be Lisa White, I can use her name because that night her life was taken by her abusive husband.  They were in the process of a divorce and had 3 children together who all watched from the window as this all took place.  After the shooting her husband left and there was a stand off lasting hours.  In the end her husband shot himself in the chest.  The problem was that he was not successful at taking his life.  The crew that showed up to take care of Mr. White included one of the longest established paramedics in NY.  The paramedic knew Lisa since the beginning of her career.  This paramedic had every reason to fumble and not try his hardest.  However, he treated this killer as a patient and not as a murderer.  He tried everything to save Mr. Whites life.  In the end Mr. White died.  The paramedic with all his experience, and all the tools at his disposal did what we are trained and taught to do and that is SAVING LIVES.  LET GOD JUDGE.


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## Afflixion (May 18, 2009)

something they don't teach enough in EMS schools is emotional detachment. Some might say it's bad but I'm all for it when I worked on a truck we routinely were call to a federal prison and a type of "halfway house" for "recovering sex offenders." I hated going there but not because of the people I could careless about they're crimes we were called because they were injured / ill and we treated and x-ported. I hated going there because the guards were always very rude to not just us but the patients as well there was one instance where we received a call for a man in DKA and the prison guard actually kicked him in the ribs before we loaded him on the stretcher... I make it a habit of not knowing they're criminal history. Emotional detachment is key especially in my current line of work (line medic in an AASLT infantry platoon) its best not to get to attached to people who may potentially die on you.


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## ffdanpburg20 (May 18, 2009)

You treat them like any other patient..


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