# Drunks w/ Drugs..



## BirdtheEMTB (Aug 24, 2008)

Hmmm...well we all love them drunks on drugs right? Had a call today..Dispatched e1 male with difficulty breathing.. so we arrive on scene and see a man getting up from a seat from his porch huffing down a cancer stick, and throwing a half chugged beer into his yard.-_- We all looked at each other and snickered. We get out and meet the man on his steps and ask him what was going on and he replies "I can't breath and my chest hurts" my medic say's, " well smoking that cigg isn't helping" his reply "F YOU" We call for PD backup, apparently this is a well known residence and the cop was super ignorant to our Pt. witch made our transport even more eventful. So we get the pt. strapped in and transport, on the way pt. states that he did 500 worth of cocaine, my medic looked at me and I pass him the drug box. My medic ran 2 14gauge in the top of the hands and gave the pt. Narcan.....witch in turn pissed the pt. off even moreB) Arrived at the ED transferred care to the nurses, pt. gets out of the hospital bed and comes out of the room IV still in his hand screaming obsenitys at the top of his lungs saying "I just pissed myself, now what the F are you gonna do about it", security rushes him and takes him back into the room...let me say don't piss of the ER nurse! She THANKED us LOL!
ps does this thing have a spell check? HA AHAHAH!:blush:


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## VentMedic (Aug 24, 2008)

Alcohol
Nicotine
Cocaine
Difficulty breathing
Chest Pain
Agitation

Narcan?

You are very lucky you didn't deliver a dead body to the ED.


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## KEVD18 (Aug 24, 2008)

im sorry in advance if this comes off as harsh but: what the flaming hell was he given narcan for???? i search in vain for the words heroin, percocet, oxy etc in your post and they just arent there.

your medic needs to go back and relearn what narcan is used for and what it does.

bilateral 14's??? again, what the hell for. sure, start a line for the pointless narcan. in fact, start two just incase your country bumpkin medic blows the first one hammering in the pointless narcan, but bilateral large bores???? before he did the coke did he crash his car or something?? bilat 14's are only indicated in trauma(and for the love of god, please spare me the discussion on why you dont dump liter after of fluid into a trauma patient. im just making an example).

im sorry but your medic needs some work.


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## Ridryder911 (Aug 24, 2008)

BirdtheEMTB said:


> Hmmm...well we all love them drunks on drugs right? Had a call today..Dispatched e1 male with difficulty breathing.. so we arrive on scene and see a man getting up from a seat from his porch huffing down a cancer stick, and throwing a half chugged beer into his yard.-_- We all looked at each other and snickered. We get out and meet the man on his steps and ask him what was going on and he replies "I can't breath and my chest hurts" my medic say's, " well smoking that cigg isn't helping" his reply "F YOU" We call for PD backup, apparently this is a well known residence and the cop was super ignorant to our Pt. witch made our transport even more eventful. So we get the pt. strapped in and transport, on the way pt. states that he did 500 worth of cocaine, my medic looked at me and I pass him the drug box. My medic ran *2 14gauge in the top of the hands and gave the pt. Narcan.*....witch in turn pissed the pt. off even moreB) Arrived at the ED transferred care to the nurses, pt. gets out of the hospital bed and comes out of the room IV still in his hand screaming obsenitys at the top of his lungs saying "I just pissed myself, now what the F are you gonna do about it", security rushes him and takes him back into the room...let me say don't piss of the ER nurse! She THANKED us LOL!
> ps does this thing have a spell check? HA AHAHAH!:blush:



I agree. Unfortunately, your partner just demonstrated that he/she is no better than the patient. In fact worse. At least the druggy can say they have an excuse to be a arse  the medic does not. 

Bi-lateral in the hands? Wow! I bet that made the medic feel all warm inside getting a little revenge... Yeah, real professional, heck I think I'll nominate them for medic of the year!... NOT!!! Narcan to an obvious breathing and non-opioid overdose. I bet they slammed it too, so they can cause a little nausea and vertigo..to go with it. 

Now, on top of being unethical, revengeful, and unprofessional you have as well generated a EMS bill that will never be paid. 

Nice going guys, there was your pay raise. 

Congratulations.... 


*not the response you were expecting, huh?

R/r 911


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## akflightmedic (Aug 24, 2008)

It is because of posts like this that prevent us from being a profession and answers the questions of why we do not make more money or why we do not have respect or not allowed to do this skill or that skill.


I am saddened by your posting as sometimes it is hard for me to imagine that clueless idiots perform treatments very similar to what you and your partner did.  See, I didnt say they were idiots, so don't gig me mods. 

You sir failed your patient, failed your service and failed your education and training.


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## VentMedic (Aug 24, 2008)

As the first to reply to this thread I didn't want to get it locked by typing what came across my mind last night on the first read of his post. 

BirdtheEMTB,

You and your partner's actions could have caused serious harm or death to the patient and to the ED staff that had to take care of a very agitated patient some of which was the direct result of your "treatment". I hope you realize that if the patient had died, this would have been investigated not as a medical error but as a criminal act on a patient which could have resulted in you and your partner doing some serious prison time. 

The cop at scene may have appeared "ignorant to the patient" because he may have been trying to decide what to make of your behavior. Since the patient called or had someone call 911 for help and was sitting on the porch, I would say you and your partner's actions and attitude may have set off the combativeness. 

While learning what Narcan is used for, you and your partner might also read up on what affects of nicotine, cocaine and alcohol have on several systems of the body including the heart before you "snicker" at a patient's complaint of chest pain and difficulty breathing. Then, you might be able to assess a patient medically and with less attitude. A class in the basic principles of dealing with an impaired patient might also be wise before you do cause serious injury to the patient, bystanders, police, ED staff or even yourself and partner.


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## DT4EMS (Aug 24, 2008)

I would like to "add" a piece to this post..................

I wonder how the PCR reads. I am curious because I am sure it isn't documented the way it played out. 

Guys and Gals, we have to wise up. Everyone who reads my stuff knows I am an advocate for safety. Both of the provider and the patient. I wrote an article on Good Customer Service that deals with just this type of incident.

Let's say this "patient" gets hacked off and starts clubbing the provider. Cops are called and the "patient" goes to the pokey.

A savvy lawyer gets involved. He realizes the tx did not fit the situation. He begins to prove the tx was a result of retaliation thereby it is an assault. The "patient" becomes the VICTIM.

The service writes a fat, fat check and the provider is charged with assault and never works again........... maybe sees jail time.

Now, where this hurts us all is EMS isn't seen as the victim, but as a bunch of jerks. It is no different than the cop that takes an extra jab at a cuffed suspect. It hurts the profession as a whole.

Not THE way to see it, just A way.

Kip


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## BirdtheEMTB (Aug 24, 2008)

Well in response to this, I performed my BLS standards per protocol. As I have said in other posts I am a very new EMT, still on OJT "on job training". I did not know the contra for Narcan. All of the pt.s vital were within normal range. I did not post this thread in spite. Obviously there has been a serious mistake made on this call and I am going to speak directly to my supervisor on my next shift. Sorry to upset anyone on this forum, I was just following my medics orders.


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## BirdtheEMTB (Aug 24, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> As the first to reply to this thread I didn't want to get it locked by typing what came across my mind last night on the first read of his post.
> 
> BirdtheEMTB,
> 
> ...



The LEO did not make the situation any better! He peaked into the ambulance and started to cuss out the pt.! Saying he was tired of the pt.'s sh*t, and tired of dealing with his a** every other day. I do not agree with my actions being the result in my pt.'s aggravated state. I myself treated the pt. with respect even though it was not given to me! Again I was on the call to learn, my medic is the one that did not do his job properly, not me. But the critique's that I have been given are called for, if they were not presented to me, then I would have not known! I regret not knowing the protocol for giving Narcan, this being a very costly mistake that could have caused this pt. his life. Again I am sorry for the actions taken on this call.


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## KEVD18 (Aug 24, 2008)

BirdtheEMTB said:


> Sorry to upset anyone on this forum, I was just following my medics orders.



that defense didnt work so well for the nazis at nuremberg and it isnt going to do you much better.


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## BirdtheEMTB (Aug 24, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> im sorry in advance if this comes off as harsh but: what the flaming hell was he given narcan for???? i search in vain for the words heroin, percocet, oxy etc in your post and they just arent there.
> 
> your medic needs to go back and relearn what narcan is used for and what it does.
> 
> ...



Yes my medic does need some work, again I performed my BLS correctly. My medic is the one who did not follow proper procedures, not myself. I do take what everyone has told me on this thread to heart, but there is no need to be ignorant about it! I guess I have learned not to assume that my medic is correct, obviously not! I went into this call ASSUMING this, again I was wrong to do so.


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## Scout (Aug 24, 2008)

While not being 100% on the the details of what you can and cannot do (i'm irish trained) i would have to agree with the OP, he did not know the indication/contra for narcan. and it was administered by someoneelse who had a higher level of training. Why would he contradict a medic on a treatment he is trained to do and you are not.


Then it would have been the medics call not the OP's.




KEVD18 said:


> that defense didnt work so well for the nazis at nuremberg and it isnt going to do you much better.



and here it is the traditional nazis comment that is sure to add loads to the tread.

Are you not doing the same thing everyday when you follow protocall?


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## texmat3 (Aug 24, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> that defense didnt work so well for the nazis at nuremberg and it isnt going to do you much better.



I disagree with this position in that the Nazis failed their moral responsability.  They were guilty of crimes against humanity because they should have known better.  BirdtheEMTB, being a Basic, could not have known better, because the indications/contraindications for a drug like Narcan is not covered as a Basic.  Had he been a medic on that call, then it would be an entirly different situation.


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## VentMedic (Aug 24, 2008)

You enter a medical profession hopefully with the intent of helping people. It doesn't matter whether they are drunk or stoned on drugs. We can not always pick our patients. The fact that this was posted on an open forum with whatever intent has questionable credibility. 

The OP is now pointing the finger toward his medic as being at fault. While he may not have fully understood what narcan is, he did have involvement with calling PD and restraining the patient. The two 14 guage IVs which he mentioned in his posts did not get started by themselves and I would imagine if the patient was as agitated as made out to be, it would not have been an easy stick. The winkie smiley faces also did not help to build a case for the concern of patient care. The comments about the ED transition also raised questions and yes, many of us would like to know what was actually included in the report. 

Just remember, you are allowed to question any actions that appear to be of no medical benefit and may cause harm to the patient. That is what being partners is about. This is fun and games for something you can post on the internet for laughs. If you want to be a medical professional, then you must start to act like one and that may also mean being a patient advocate for patients that society typically rejects. They also may have the most medically complex problems and do need medical attention. 

So no, the medic is not entirely at fault here. When commonsense about the treatment of others as human beings is no longer BLS, then we can put the blame totally on the Paramedic in this case. Was this totally missed in EMT-B training?


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## VentMedic (Aug 24, 2008)

BirdtheEMTB,

BTW, since you have posted your agency affiliation in your profile, does your partner know that you have made him a topic of discussion on an open forum?


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## KEVD18 (Aug 24, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> BirdtheEMTB,
> 
> BTW, since you have posted your agency affiliation in your profile,



couple of nice looking trucks down there too. i wonder who will get them in the post settlement auction....


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## Jon (Aug 25, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> that defense didnt work so well for the nazis at nuremberg and it isnt going to do you much better.



And we have proved Godwins Law in this thread.

Lets move on.

Discussion on "Can ALS be wrong" here: http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=8902


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## KEVD18 (Aug 25, 2008)

Jon said:


> And we have proved Godwins Law in this thread.
> 
> Lets move on.
> 
> Discussion on "Can ALS be wrong" here: http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=8902




jon:

"A 2005 Reason magazine article argued that Godwin's Law is often misused to ridicule even valid comparisons"


^ Weigel, David (2005-07-14). "Hands Off Hitler!: It's time to repeal Godwin's law", Reason. Retrieved on 2006-03-24.

wouldnt want to become a statistic yourself now would you??


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## EMTgurl911 (Aug 25, 2008)

Im sorry but this is confusing, why was he given narcan?  First off of all it sounds like he was altered but we don't consider that to be alcohol..did your partner used AEIOUTIPS and even if he was drinking or smoking, you don't ignore the fact he had chest pain, that was the original c/c, I believe he told you he did coke doesn't mean he's a necessary candidate for narcan?  That just totally ignores the reason for the call?


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## KEVD18 (Aug 25, 2008)

he was given narcan because the medic on the call doesnt know his arse from his left shoe. it shouldnt have been done.

there wasnt a whole lot done right on this call, at least fromt he information provided. this is a great example of how not to run a call.


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## BirdtheEMTB (Aug 25, 2008)

Ok now so what to do? How do I move on from this call? KevD I will take your comments for what they are, I have learned a harsh lesson on this thread. I consider this discussion closed.


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## KEVD18 (Aug 25, 2008)

thats whats really important here. you have learned an important lesson, and you learned it early on enough in your career to be of real service.

where to go from here... onward and upward sir! further your education. take the als/bls class. take a&p. when your ready, pull the trigger on paramedic school. be the guy making the decisions, not the one being bent over the barrel by someone elses bad decisions.


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## BirdtheEMTB (Aug 25, 2008)

thanks for the advice


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