# Cleveland to merge FD and EMS



## Tincanfireman (May 10, 2010)

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Cleveland  plans to merge its EMS and fire operations, union officials said today.

Mayor Frank Jackson just briefed fire and emergency medical service union officials. Union leaders said the term being used is "integration."

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/05/cleveland_will_merge_ems_and_f.html


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## medic417 (May 10, 2010)

Brings to mind a song went something like another one bites the dust.  

I just hope they do it right for the patients sake.


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## atropine (May 10, 2010)

Well maybe the ems guys will get a chance to be dual role and make more cash.


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## medic417 (May 10, 2010)

atropine said:


> Well maybe the ems guys will get a chance to be dual role and make more cash.



Yes and lower patient care standards even more.  What a bargain.  More recliner time and less patient care.


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## alphatrauma (May 10, 2010)

*Fail*



atropine said:


> Well maybe the ems guys will get a chance to make more cash, and *not* have to be dual role



_*fixed*_


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## atropine (May 10, 2010)

medic417 said:


> Yes and lower patient care standards even more.  What a bargain.  More recliner time and less patient care.



How does that lower patient care standards, and recliner time, unless you work there do you know for a fact that all they do is chill out on the lazy-boys, I am just asking.


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## medic417 (May 10, 2010)

atropine said:


> How does that lower patient care standards, and recliner time, unless you work there do you know for a fact that all they do is chill out on the lazy-boys, I am just asking.



Oh I forgot play video games, watch dirty movies, and sleep. As we can now clearly see there just will be no time left to concern themselves with improving patient care.


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## terrible one (May 10, 2010)

atropine said:


> How does that lower patient care standards, and recliner time, unless you work there do you know for a fact that all they do is chill out on the lazy-boys, I am just asking.



You work for LAFD right? So you've seen LAcoFD EMS operations first hand, are you comfortable with a majority of their medics treating your family members? Honestly?
Because I know I sure don't. Of course there are always exceptions to this, some of their medics are outstanding but they are definitley not the majority.


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## DrParasite (May 10, 2010)

> Mayor Frank Jackson said both agencies provide superior services, but the city needs to explore ways to save money in tough economic times and deliver higher quality services.


good, so I guess we can expect to see the merger of the police and fire department next, in order to save money during tough economic times?


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## eynonqrs (May 10, 2010)

Great, another excuse for fireman to save their jobs. I wish luck to the EMS guys and gals, be prepared to be outcasts like a read headed step child.


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## atropine (May 10, 2010)

medic417 said:


> Oh I forgot play video games, watch dirty movies, and sleep. As we can now clearly see there just will be no time left to concern themselves with improving patient care.



I don't think the mayor would hand over the ems section of his city to a disfunctional department, I have been to several confrences and believe that CFD is one of the higher standar departments, so I fail to see how this is going to be a bad thing, I myself work for one of the busiest fire epartments around and I can assure you inbetween call we are training on something, and very raley get to watch tv, and paly video games.


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## EMSLaw (May 10, 2010)

Okay, so... the EMT's are going to cross-train as firemen, and if a fire call goes out, they will put the fire out with their on-board extinguishers and then leave the cleanup to a private service, right? 

You see how the dual role thing doesn't work so well when you put the EMS first...  It only seems better the other way because people are used to it that way.  Like so much in EMS, if it worked for Johnny and Roy, it must be fine for us.


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## atropine (May 10, 2010)

EMSLaw said:


> Okay, so... the EMT's are going to cross-train as firemen, and if a fire call goes out, they will put the fire out with their on-board extinguishers and then leave the cleanup to a private service, right?
> 
> You see how the dual role thing doesn't work so well when you put the EMS first...  It only seems better the other way because people are used to it that way.  Like so much in EMS, if it worked for Johnny and Roy, it must be fine for us.



I fail to see where you are going with this, most fire departments today have a buisness like mentality, to you get the whole pakage, if you put out a fire you stay for the overhaul as well, customer servide is number one and with todays economic issues it's hard to say who does a better job, but if the public is happy then that who you deliever too.


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## EMSLaw (May 10, 2010)

atropine said:


> I fail to see where you are going with this, most fire departments today have a buisness like mentality, to you get the whole pakage, if you put out a fire you stay for the overhaul as well, customer servide is number one and with todays economic issues it's hard to say who does a better job, but if the public is happy then that who you deliever too.



I'm not even sure I know what that paragraph means.  But yes, you get the whole package for a fire. 

For EMS, you may or may not get "full service" - you may just get five medics who haven't dropped a tube in a real person in three years on a big red fire engine, who then hand you over to a private ambulance to transport.

So, as to "where I was going" - the point is that nobody would buy an EMS service with fire suppression as an afterthought.  Why is the reverse - a fire department that does EMS to make a little money on the side - deemed acceptable?


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## atropine (May 10, 2010)

EMSLaw said:


> I'm not even sure I know what that paragraph means.  But yes, you get the whole package for a fire.
> 
> For EMS, you may or may not get "full service" - you may just get five medics who haven't dropped a tube in a real person in three years on a big red fire engine, who then hand you over to a private ambulance to transport.
> 
> So, as to "where I was going" - the point is that nobody would buy an EMS service with fire suppression as an afterthought.  Why is the reverse - a fire department that does EMS to make a little money on the side - deemed acceptable?



Okay I gotcha, I am sorry kind of ramble on that last post, but I guess I would have to anser is that fire suppression ems is the standar and until that changes, and from what level it is going to be a constant. Iam not sure how it works in New Jersey, but around her most fire medic are on the ambulance and squads, or engines in somed cases and always get first hand patient contact, dropping tubes wheather your on the ambulance/squad or enging is not that big a deal, my department does not use private ambulances, but some do and they are bls unless the fire medics go with them so I guess it works where I live and play.


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## terrible one (May 11, 2010)

So your ok with LAcoFD medics treating your family?


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## EMTinNEPA (May 11, 2010)

atropine said:


> I don't think the mayor would hand over the ems section of his city to a disfunctional department



Four letters: FDNY.

Best of luck to the EMTs and paramedics who will now be prisoners and outcasts at their own place of employment.

_R.P.D.L.T.B._
RIP Cleveland EMS


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## MrBrown (May 11, 2010)

*Aw damn it to the bowels of bloody hell!*


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## atropine (May 11, 2010)

terrible one said:


> So your ok with LAcoFD medics treating your family?



Yeah those LA county pukes are okay, I mean there not any worse than riverside AMR medics.


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## terrible one (May 11, 2010)

Haha well can't comment on riverside, but I wouldn't let LAcoFD near me or my dying loved ones. I'd take my chances and drive myself


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## Veneficus (May 11, 2010)

*being from the area...*

I cannot realistically see a merger between Clevelan EMS and Fire as detrimental to patient care. At least not any more detrimental than it is now.

While I am generally against merging fire and EMS, in this particular case, EMS did nothing to protect its interests over more than 2 decades, during the same time, fire department paramedics were operating under the same protocols, the same medical director, and transporting patients. 

In the later half of the time period, both EMS and the FD sent their EMTs to the same college for medic. Additionally, no cleveland firefighter is required to be a medic, those who are chose to be. Some even paid for the schooling themelves. Many of the FD medics (close to 70%) work a second job at some of the regions best hospitals. EMS actually discourages and even terminates providers for working outside of their service. 

The failure of Cleveland EMS rests soley on their administration. In the last 20years they have done nothing but fight to relive the "glory days" of the 70s. The field providers faught (often via union action) to even minimally increase services provided. The current leadership only under threat made any effort to save their service. Too little too late. I could probably write a book on it.

Because of these issues, EMS saw a massive brain drain and lost many highly skilled providers. The best ones that stuck it out do so only because of their proximity to retirement. New paramedic grads in the area wouldn't even consider EMS as a job. Can you even imagine trying to recruit experienced people with vintage protocols, a paramilitary probation where you have to stand at attention when people enter the room, and immediate mandatory overtime?

It is unfortunate that the providers will likely be treated poorly by the FD. But it may help considerably to reduce provider usage, though the volume is too high for the 24/48 the FD uses.

the FD is a skills based culture, where rapid transport and return to service is the measure of EMS, but in this case the 3rdservice is exactly the same.

In all fairness, in this case the FD can do at least equal and with the FD administration it is more likely the EMS component will advance than if it remains seperate.


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## firetender (May 11, 2010)

*That was then, this is now.*



EMSLaw said:


> if it worked for Johnny and Roy, it must be fine for us.



Of course it worked for Johnny and Roy...it was in the script! And how could that be biased? Oh, wait, the production was dependent on cooperation with LAFD. Naturally, they'd have no investment in how things are portrayed. 

You put a bullseye on your butt with that one, my brother. The arguments about Fire and EMS relationships rage on while most medics here agree, EMS as portrayed by the popular media is bogus. 

Johnny and Roy were effective agents of propaganda. You probably wouldn't have been in EMS as long as you have were it not for them. They literally put us into the *fantasy* of the profession (which this site is designed to debunk) and the whole country jumped on board, accelerating the field exponentially.

Johnny and Roy are like ancient Hawaiian gods; the people invent them when they are needed. The country needed the myth of EMS to raise what was a dismal standard of care in the 1960's. They did their jobs and honestly, my most gracious respect goes with them. AND just like what the Hawaiians do with their Gods, it is time for us to fire them!

There's a pun in there I didn't anticipate or intend; chew on that one!!


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## MrBrown (May 11, 2010)

terrible one said:


> Haha well can't comment on riverside, but I wouldn't let LAcoFD near me or my dying loved ones. I'd take my chances and drive myself



At least they are better than the 12 week Parmaedic wonders at the Houston Fire Department!


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## medic417 (May 11, 2010)

MrBrown said:


> At least they are better than the 12 week Parmaedic wonders at the Houston Fire Department!



Not even based on what I've heard.  :unsure:


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## MrBrown (May 12, 2010)

medic417 said:


> Not even based on what I've heard.  :unsure:



Now I *am* worried; you'd think the 6 month LACoFD PTI wonders be at 2x as good as the 12 week Houston Fire Department wonders


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## 46Young (May 12, 2010)

EMTinNEPA said:


> Four letters: FDNY.
> 
> Best of luck to the EMTs and paramedics who will now be prisoners and outcasts at their own place of employment.
> 
> ...



http://fdnyemswebsite.com/

I have two cousins that left for hosp based EMS after suffering through the merger. At least the FDNY still kept EMS and fire as seperate roles, though. 

Also, judging by your signature, you're practically home free. When's the date of your state final?


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## EMTinNEPA (May 12, 2010)

46Young said:


> http://fdnyemswebsite.com/
> 
> I have two cousins that left for hosp based EMS after suffering through the merger. At least the FDNY still kept EMS and fire as seperate roles, though.
> 
> Also, judging by your signature, you're practically home free. When's the date of your state final?



Registry practical is July 31st.  Written should be a few days after that.  Should have cert in hand by mid-August.


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## terrible one (May 14, 2010)

MrBrown said:


> Now I *am* worried; you'd think the 6 month LACoFD PTI wonders be at 2x as good as the 12 week Houston Fire Department wonders



I really don't know how much worse you can be than LAcoFD. I almost don't think it is possible


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## atropine (May 14, 2010)

terrible one said:


> I really don't know how much worse you can be than LAcoFD. I almost don't think it is possible



Wow what did LAcoFD ever do to you, I don't think there all that,but it sounds like they killed your grandma or something.


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## terrible one (May 14, 2010)

Well after spending 3 years working with them I've seen enough to make my judgement.

Shocking PEA rhythms, dozens upon dozens of missed tubes, Repeated Albuterol for cardiac wheezes, Static shocks, Attempts at pacing a non-symptomatic Brady pt (fully alert/oriented), spending 20,30,40 minutes on scene of a single critical trauma victim so they can get an IV, BLSing: abd pain pt after High Speed Rollover with ejection/ Altered Mental Status with knife wounds/ Alerted Mental Status post 15' fall (after staying on scene 15min to confirm it was 12' so the medics don't have to ride in), etc... I could go on all day.

They do have some good medics, but the majority are underqualified/unskilled who didn't want to be medics anyway. I have no problem with them on an individual level, I just don't agree with making FFs who don't want to be a medic, medics. I'm sure they have their reasons though.


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