# EMTs Failed to Help Woman in Pennsylvania



## Jon (Jul 8, 2005)

EMTs Failed to Help Woman in Pennsylvania



Updated: 07-01-2005 09:37:36 AM
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KATHLEEN BRADY SHEA
Philadelphia Inquirer via Associated Press


An Oxford woman would be alive today if medical personnel had heeded her plea for help, her relatives contend. 

Judy Lynn Pomerleau, 45, called 911 at 12:03 a.m. on Feb. 22, 2004, according to county records. 

She did not get the assistance she needed, according to a lawsuit filed yesterday in Chester County Court on behalf of the administrators of her estate. 

According to the suit, which was prepared by attorney Joseph P. Green Jr., Pomerleau told the operator that she was experiencing respiratory difficulty, that her door was locked, and that she would attempt to unlock it. 

However, employees of Southern Chester County Emergency Medical Services Inc. found the door locked, failed to get a response from anyone inside, and left the home about 12:20, the suit says. 

<Snip>

The suit says she apparently "fell on the way from the phone to unlock her front door." The second 911 call was made at 1:37 a.m., according to records. 

The suit alleges that the EMTs "certainly should have known that there was a high likelihood the patient was in a compromised medical condition and unable to answer their communications" and that they should have gained forced entry. 

Firehouse.com for the rest: Clicky


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## Jon (Jul 8, 2005)

This happened in the south end of my county. I was suprised to find this, as I hadn't heard this happened until I read it today.

Sad, but probably nothing will come out of it... how can we, as providers, justify bashing in doors on a respirtory distress call? When? How do we justify it????


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## coloradoemt (Jul 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by MedicStudentJon_@Jul 8 2005, 03:17 PM
> * This happened in the south end of my county. I was suprised to find this, as I hadn't heard this happened until I read it today.
> 
> Sad, but probably nothing will come out of it... how can we, as providers, justify bashing in doors on a respirtory distress call? When? How do we justify it???? *


 How can you justify not?? You do not have to do a large ammount of damage to gain entry into a house.


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## TTLWHKR (Jul 8, 2005)

Every ambulance in the commonwealth carries the same equipment for forcible entry. There is no excuse for a unit unable to enter a structure, unless it is not legally equipped, in which case it should not be in service. First be smart, check all the doors; check all the windows.

Your tool box should have iron or steel chisels for breaking car door hinges, a pry bar and a 10lb sledge hammer.

With that equipment, you should be able to break windows, locks, latches, hinges, etc.  

Or with a little thought you should be able to put the pry bar edge of a haligan bar at the latch of a door and whack it with a flat head axe or denver tool. That will open many a door.

That's what I would do. Not just because I like to break things, as part of my job, but because that is the right thing to do. The city has insurance, they can pay if it's the wrong house, or if she's okay. But if she's not, you saved a life. Advise dispatch to get PD enroute, and tell them you are gaining access. Covered your bases, all finished. Now if you were called to a domestic, or something suspicious, I'd wait out and let PD break the door down.


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## Ridryder911 (Jul 8, 2005)

I agree, they were summoned to help & was negligent in carrying out there duties. No futher attempt was made to see if help was needed ? I too would have summoned the Police Department for a welfare check... as in this case better safe than sorry....

As in negligence.. 
they had a duty to respond.. as per party
actions taken or *not *taken caused damage to party...
actions from other equal trained person would have acted in same manner

I hope they have good malpratice attorney & the cities premiums are paid up... they might as well get the check ready. 

One thing will happen, I am sure policy & procedures are being reviewed & changed at this moment.

Be safe, 
Ridryder 911


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## SafetyPro2 (Jul 9, 2005)

We would definitely force entry in that situation. Our utility truck responds on all EMS calls and carries a full range of FE tools. If needed, we'd even roll the engine to the scene.


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## TTLWHKR (Jul 9, 2005)

Blast Mats...


I've seen them used.. and gee willy wonkers, they would be the bees knees on the ambulance, eh?


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## vtemti (Jul 9, 2005)

Ah yes. Forcable entry. I love it. Many times we have had to do this, but usually get PD on scene as a CYA. Lifeline calls for the most part. People leave and forget to set the unit for vacation.


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## rescuecpt (Jul 9, 2005)

Around here we don't force entry.  We call PD, they come, if they can't do it, the FD assists.  Not our job to break down doors.  We weren't trained to do that either.  If we were, it would be a different story.


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## Phridae (Jul 9, 2005)

4th of July. We get a call for someone having a diabetic reaction. Knock on the door, no one answers. Try the handle; locked. Try the back door; locked. The cops kick the door in. We find a lady in bed who didnt even hear her door being kicked down. 

Around here, if no one answers the door, they get kicked in. Either insurance or the city pays for a new one. Its a small price to pay.


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## Jon (Jul 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by TTLWHKR_@Jul 8 2005, 08:26 PM
> * Every ambulance in the commonwealth carries the same equipment for forcible entry. There is no excuse for a unit unable to enter a structure, unless it is not legally equipped, in which case it should not be in service. First be smart, check all the doors; check all the windows.
> 
> Your tool box should have iron or steel chisels for breaking car door hinges, a pry bar and a 10lb sledge hammer.
> ...


 My one squad carries a rabbit tool... great thing, espicially when you have the little kids who lock mom out of the house... we usually get the door open with minimal damage to the frame.

I'm just saying, that Philly PD has had this situation repeatedly over the years, and just because someone thinks someone is in trouble, does that justify breaking down a door?

How many times have you been called, only to find that the patient already left POV???

I do think that the crew should have waited, should have looked in, consulted with EMS chief and senior PD members, and probably had the county call-back the complaintant. If I could see in the windows, look inside. 

Jon


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## Jon (Jul 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by TTLWHKR_@Jul 9 2005, 12:15 AM
> * Blast Mats...
> 
> 
> I've seen them used.. and gee willy wonkers, they would be the bees knees on the ambulance, eh? *


 I bet that Luno has em' on his squads....


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## Luno (Jul 9, 2005)

when I was on the rigs, we had no protocol for forced entry, it was a "cop" thing,  and now I can say all our weapons are "defensive" in nature.  But thanks for the thought Jon.


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## TTLWHKR (Jul 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by MedicStudentJon+Jul 9 2005, 01:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (MedicStudentJon @ Jul 9 2005, 01:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-TTLWHKR_@Jul 8 2005, 08:26 PM
> * Every ambulance in the commonwealth carries the same equipment for forcible entry. There is no excuse for a unit unable to enter a structure, unless it is not legally equipped, in which case it should not be in service. First be smart, check all the doors; check all the windows.
> 
> Your tool box should have iron or steel chisels for breaking car door hinges, a pry bar and a 10lb sledge hammer.
> ...


My one squad carries a rabbit tool... great thing, espicially when you have the little kids who lock mom out of the house... we usually get the door open with minimal damage to the frame.

I'm just saying, that Philly PD has had this situation repeatedly over the years, and just because someone thinks someone is in trouble, does that justify breaking down a door?

How many times have you been called, only to find that the patient already left POV???

I do think that the crew should have waited, should have looked in, consulted with EMS chief and senior PD members, and probably had the county call-back the complaintant. If I could see in the windows, look inside. 

Jon [/b][/quote]
 But, do you know how good it feels to smash a window out w/ a pike pole, or break a door in half w/ an axe?


IT'S WORTH IT!

If you're wrong, that's what insurance is for!


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## Flight-LP (Jul 9, 2005)

"If you're wrong, that's what insurance is for! "

I agree completely, CYA and make entry........................................


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## rescuecpt (Jul 10, 2005)

I learned how to take doors in fire school of course, but as an EMT it's still not in my protocols.  It's only in our fire protocols if the house is on fire or otherwise compromised.  PD all the way.  At least I'll get to look at cuties in uniforms exerting force.   :wub:


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## Jon (Jul 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by TTLWHKR_@Jul 9 2005, 04:17 PM
> *
> But, do you know how good it feels to smash a window out w/ a pike pole, or break a door in half w/ an axe?
> 
> ...


 Said like the whacker he is.....


I'm just against destroying something needlessly.....



Jon


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## shorthairedpunk (Jul 11, 2005)

I was breakin into houses long before I became an EMT, and its shown to be beneficial. There are very few homes that you would have to do any damage to to make entry. And the FD always carrys the universal set of door keys. 

Any time we are activated until we know that there is no resident home, we have to investigate, we make entry, usually after contacting PD.

If its true she told dispatch her door was locked, it is on dispatch to convey that info, if they did, and the story is true, the crew should hang for being lazy.


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## TTLWHKR (Jul 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by MedicStudentJon_@Jul 10 2005, 07:07 PM
> * destroying something needlessly.....
> 
> 
> ...


 Define needlessly? I'd rather pay someone out of my pocket for a window I broke to save their life, than lose my career, family, home, and freedom.


Here's the scenario:

You know there is a woman inside that home with a serious medical condition. She is alone, she can't get to the door, minutes count. She can't answer the phone, or call for additional assistance, she's unresponsive. You don't want to damage her property... so you leave.

She dies.

But you didn't break the door. Saved the insurance company 30 bucks! Congrats!

Oh an by the way, the family is suing your company for 2 million dollars, your losing your certs, and going to jail for gross incompetence and adandonment.

OR.

You know there is a woman inside that home with a serious medical condition. She is alone, she can't get to the door, minutes count. She can't answer the phone, or call for additional assistance, she's unresponsive. You break the window in the door, reach in and unlock it, you reach her bed side in time to administer life saving medication. She survives, her insurance company gladly pays 30 bucks to replace the small window pane you broke out.

You advance on with another life saved.


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## TTLWHKR (Jul 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by shorthairedpunk_@Jul 11 2005, 12:04 AM
> * I was breakin into houses long before I became an EMT *


 Confessing your crimes?
I certainly hope you were a locksmith, or should we be contacting the authorities?


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## 007medic (Jul 11, 2005)

I agree that access should have been gained. That is why the FD is present on all calls that we run. It really helps out because they are usually there when we get there. They alredy have a pt report for us, and it prevents problems like this one that has been posted. I also agree with Jon in one aspect. Everyone is so sue happy these days. Yes I would rather get sued for a $30 door or window rather than abandonment, but somewhere the law needs to draw the line to help us. Why should our insurance company (the city's) be responsible for a property damage claim when we were called to do a service? If I were put in this situation, I would have kicked in the door, with LEOs present, like you all mentioned eariler CYA. If the town was sued for a $30 property damage, I would have voiced my opinion on how crappy that was. After all the pt called in a complaint.


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## vtemti (Jul 11, 2005)

Once I even had to take out a stairway bannister to get a patient out of place. One of those houses designed with not much thought process for emergency access.


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## medic 4-2 (Jul 12, 2005)

good stuff i love kicking down doors


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## Jon (Jul 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by TTLWHKR+Jul 11 2005, 04:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (TTLWHKR @ Jul 11 2005, 04:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-MedicStudentJon_@Jul 10 2005, 07:07 PM
> * destroying something needlessly.....
> 
> 
> ...


Define needlessly [/b][/quote]
 All I'm saying is that I want to be darn sure there is a patient on the other side of the door that needs my help, and that:

1. The county didn't screw up the address, again
2. The resident isn't on the other side of the door with a gun, waiting to shoot the guys breaking into his house
3. The patient Really Really Really can't open the door, and wants / would want us to break it in for them.


I need more info on this, and am suprised to have not heard anything on the county's rumormill / bashing "fourm"

My county (where this happened) has MDC's, where we can see the entire text input by the calltakers, PD and FD dispatchers. We can see exact times, and we can send text messages to the dispatchers as needed.

The county also has a bad habit of messing up street addresses

The crew should have been sure that there wasn't a need for EMS before leaving.


Jon


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## TTLWHKR (Jul 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by MedicStudentJon+Jul 12 2005, 10:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>*QUOTE* (MedicStudentJon @ Jul 12 2005, 10:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All I'm saying is that I want to be darn sure there is a patient on the other side of the door that needs my help, and that:

1. The county didn't screw up the address, again
2. The resident isn't on the other side of the door with a gun, waiting to shoot the guys breaking into his house
3. The patient Really Really Really can't open the door, and wants / would want us to break it in for them.


I need more info on this, and am suprised to have not heard anything on the county's rumormill / bashing "fourm"

My county (where this happened) has MDC's, where we can see the entire text input by the calltakers, PD and FD dispatchers. We can see exact times, and we can send text messages to the dispatchers as needed.

The county also has a bad habit of messing up street addresses

The crew should have been sure that there wasn't a need for EMS before leaving.


Jon [/b][/quote]
 Poor baby medic. What are we going to do with you, not willing to break things with the toys provided.


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