# [Patient's child on dispatch radio] First they came for the ATC'ers, but...



## JPINFV (Mar 18, 2010)

> *Neb. Paramedics Investigated After Boy Handed Radio*
> 
> Some Omaha paramedics are under investigation for letting a boy talk on an emergency radio.
> 
> ...



http://emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?id=12486&siteSection=1

This, along with the air traffic controller who let his children "direct" traffic, is a sad statement on the state of the nation and the amount of hand waving freakoutry that goes on.


For those that haven't heard of the JFK airport ATC incident, here's a recording. Kid comes on at 29 seconds.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4s2irdJpEk[/youtube]


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## Shishkabob (Mar 18, 2010)

My view on this is the same exact view I have on the ATC ones:


The kids weren't playing around, doing unsupervised things.  They were saying word for word what a grownup told them.  They were never given life/death decisions, they were just saying words that in the event they screwed up, an adult could go "Correction, it's *blankety blank*"



 Not only is it a case of no harm, no foul, it's a case of no harm possible, no foul possible.


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## CountryEMT-bGurl (Mar 19, 2010)

I believe the child did an amazing job! And no one on the air seemed to take any offense to it. If anything it probably enlightened there day!


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## EMSLaw (Mar 19, 2010)

As Heath Leger's Joker said... "Why so serious?"

If letting the kid use the radio to call in a routine transmission calmed him down, then it seems like a good thing.  Personally, as long as there's an adult standing over his shoulder, I think it's harmless.

I remember firefighters letting kids play with the siren back when I was a kid.  Many of us haven't outgrown the need.


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## Bloom-IUEMT (Mar 19, 2010)

Are you kidding me?? I remember once I was transporting a female pt who had a seizure in front of her little boy and the kid was up front with me. It was the first time he's ever been in an ambulance and I was trying to cheer him up; I almost put the radio mike in front of him and told him to say "medic *** is at the hospital."  If I was a little kid I would think that is the coolest thing in the world but it's a good thing I didn't because I'd probably would be under investigation. 

The ATC is a little different because you are DIRECTING air traffic whereas in an ambulance you are just telling dispatch what you are doing.  ATC has hundreds of people's lives in there hands and a miscommunication can  cause death....it's happened before.  human error accounts for the majority of air traffic accidents and the FAA has strict rules about this sort of thing.  I'm not sure if the same can be said for a kid on a radio in Hickville USA:wacko:


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## wolfwyndd (Mar 19, 2010)

Either way, I think they are making a mountain out of a mole hill.  Was anyone hurt because of EITHER transmission.  No.  The WTF is the harm of letting some kid under adult supervision talk on the radio.


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## JPINFV (Mar 19, 2010)

Bloom-IUEMT said:


> The ATC is a little different because you are DIRECTING air traffic whereas in an ambulance you are just telling dispatch what you are doing.  ATC has hundreds of people's lives in there hands and a miscommunication can  cause death....it's happened before.  human error accounts for the majority of air traffic accidents and the FAA has strict rules about this sort of thing.  I'm not sure if the same can be said for a kid on a radio in Hickville USA:wacko:



It's no different really... all the ATC boy was doing was playing polly parrot. If he messed up a trasmission, all the father had to do was broadcast "disregard" (he made other, more complex, directions, so he also had a headset on) and fix the mistake. It's not like ATC'ers never make a mistake and give wrong directions or change their game mind in mid transmission. Similarly, the worst thing he could do is give, say, a plane not on the active runway permission to take off which would have been met with something along the lines of, "lol wut?" by the pilot.


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## Bloom-IUEMT (Mar 19, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> It's no different really... all the ATC boy was doing was playing polly parrot. If he messed up a trasmission, all the father had to do was broadcast "disregard" (he made other, more complex, directions, so he also had a headset on) and fix the mistake. It's not like ATC'ers never make a mistake and give wrong directions or change their game mind in mid transmission. Similarly, the worst thing he could do is give, say, a plane not on the active runway permission to take off which would have been met with something along the lines of, "lol wut?" by the pilot.



Lmfao! It's actually a lot different.  Letting your kid talk on an ATC channel to direct air traffic is not like letting a kid talk to EMs dispatch, it's more like letting your kid defibrillate  a patient. FAA has very strict rules about that sort of thing.  A good deal of crashes are caused by mis-communication.  FAA makes rules like during descent and take-off pilots aren't allowed to have any non-operational conversations...they can't even ask each how their day went.  

If any sort of mistake had been made and people died you know they would have blamed the person who let the kid talk on the radio even if the kid had nothing to do with it.
But that's just my opinion.....and the FAA's


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## JPINFV (Mar 19, 2010)

...and what would the response have been if the ambulance crashed while the captain was distracted handing the kid the microphone, telling him what to say, and making sure that he said it? 

If the ATC incident was so dangerous, then how come there haven't been any complaints from the pilots involved? Heck, a bunch of pilots in the area have been showing sympathy for the ATC'er during the handoffs.


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## Bloom-IUEMT (Mar 19, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> ...and what would the response have been if the ambulance crashed while the captain was distracted handing the kid the microphone, telling him what to say, and making sure that he said it?



Touche sir, touche.


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## Shishkabob (Mar 19, 2010)

Bloom-IUEMT said:


> Lmfao! It's actually a lot different.  Letting your kid talk on an ATC channel to direct air traffic



He WASN'T directing air traffic.  Heck, he wasn't even DIRECTING.  He was communicating with ground traffic, word for word what their dad told them to say.  


Again, the kids weren't making decisions, they were just repeating a simple phrase.  There was no possible bad consequence to be had.


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## Bloom-IUEMT (Mar 19, 2010)

hild: JetBlue 171 cleared for takeoff.

Male pilot: Cleared for takeoff Jetblue 171.



Man: Here's what you get, guys, when the kids are out of school.

Male pilot: I wish I could bring my kids to work.

Child's voice: Jetblue 171 contact departure.

Male pilot: Over at departure Jetblue 171. Awesome job.

[New transmission]

Child: 403 clear for takeoff

Adult: 403 clear for takeoff. Thank you very much and have a great day.

Child: AirMex 403 contact departure. Adios.

Woman pilot: Contact departure AirMexico 403. Adios.

Child: Contact departure. Adios amigos.

Man: Adios amigos. Over departure JetBlue 195. 

That is communicating commands! Perhaps we need to review FAA regulations yes? Parroting or not he was COMMUNICATING COMMANDS TO PILOTS. For crap's sake you aren't even supposed to children in tower observing. ANd what if the children distracted the ATC'er?  JFK isn't exactly a slow airport and from my understanding ATC is a difficult job requiring a good deal of attention and skill.  They are not the same circumstances...

According to the JEMS article the ambulance was parked and the Fire CAPTAIN was trying to calm the boy down! How are they remotely similar?

But don't misunderstand.....the ATC'er should really just get slap on wrist because no harm was done and the Nebraska paramedics have nothing done to them because the whole issue was retardedly blown out of proportion.


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## Bloom-IUEMT (Mar 19, 2010)

Linuss said:


> He WASN'T directing air traffic.  Heck, he wasn't even DIRECTING.  He was communicating with ground traffic,



Haha yeah and crashes never happen while on the ground.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster

http://www.planecrashinfo.com/cause.htm


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## JPINFV (Mar 19, 2010)

Bloom-IUEMT said:


> That is communicating commands! Perhaps we need to review FAA regulations yes? Parroting or not he was COMMUNICATING COMMANDS TO PILOTS. For crap's sake you aren't even supposed to children in tower observing. ANd what if the children distracted the ATC'er?  JFK isn't exactly a slow airport and from my understanding ATC is a difficult job requiring a good deal of attention and skill.  They are not the same circumstances...



...then how come the pilots aren't complaining in droves? Do you think that the boy would have said anything if the father hadn't explicitly told him to say it? This puts any liability for causing accidents back on the father because if any legitimately bad order was given (in contrast to a misspeak, which could very well happen regardless of who's on the microphone) would have been given regardless.


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## Bloom-IUEMT (Mar 19, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> ...then how come the pilots aren't complaining in droves?


Because no one was injured or died.  The ATC'er would likely assume more liability for the crash had any miscommunication occurred NTSB would have faulted the father regardless if he was the one who misspoke.  



> Do you think that the boy would have said anything if the father hadn't explicitly told him to say it?


Ummm yeah...you don't?  You are assuming a boy who likely has no ATC experience (ya know, being that he is a CHILD) would not have a greater propensity to mix up communications. Ever played the game telephone as a kid?  


> This puts any liability for causing accidents back on the father because if any legitimately bad order was given (in contrast to a misspeak, which could very well happen regardless of who's on the microphone) would have been given regardless.


What? The liability is on the father regardless if was his fault for simply breaking FAA regulations by letting a non-licensed person communicate on an air comm channel.  How the  would you explain to NTSB that you said the right command but your 8 y/o child was the one who messed up?  

Again I don't think the ATC'er should get in any trouble but to say the circumstances are the same with similar consequences is...well....kind of absurd.


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## Hal9000 (Mar 19, 2010)

This is quite simply not a problem at all, in my opinion. 

Regarding the ATC incident, I've seen some pilots have a hissy about is, but most think that it's not too much of a big deal.  Having flown many places, I've had ATC joke around and seen mistakes made, but this doesn't seem to be a time where it would have been terribly easy to kills hundreds of people.

I did once have a controller joke around with parallel approaches...after I started my crosswind turn on my first TaG, he instructed me to "exit on Juliet and taxi on Alpha" before parking.  I asked him if he wanted me to land again, first, or if I should attempt it right from the pattern.  It was really quite amusing.  Maybe you had to be there.


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