# Glendale fire assaults patient after patient assaults them



## exodus (Oct 29, 2014)

http://www.azfamily.com/news/Incide...-internal-review-280738182.html#ixzz3HWyrWEUP





Not sure where to go.  Fire's language is definitely inappropriate. Looks like the gurney is tipped over and the guy is still strapped to it.  Something's not right here.

Edit: News article pasted above as well.

Seems like he overdosed on probably a narcotic as he was trying to sleep. He woke up from it, then became combative. Sounds like they woke up a hypoxic overdose by slamming him with narcan.  Of course he's going to be combative.


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## SandpitMedic (Oct 29, 2014)

I heard mentally ill and seizure...no one can be sure at this point. 

Fire let this one get of hand.
I want to side with them, but I just can't.

 It should have been handled differently by the captain instead of screaming f*** for every other word.


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## exodus (Oct 29, 2014)

SandpitMedic said:


> I heard mentally ill and seizure...no one can be sure at this point.
> 
> Fire let this one get of hand.
> I want to side with them, but I just can't.
> ...


Exactly, even if you do get punched, pin the patient down and remain calm until PD gets there. If you can't safely hold the pt down, then leave. No reason to tell the patient he's going to die and you're going to take his life away from his family.


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## gonefishing (Oct 29, 2014)

You have EVERY right to defend yourself so long as it's not excessive force.  This guy is tied down not like hes throwing punches also more than enough people to handle it.  I've been clocked by psych patients and all I would do is pin them down and strap one extremetie at a time.  Yea I would cuss a little that's human nature.  But this situation is shocking.


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## TheLocalMedic (Oct 29, 2014)

Granted, we didn't see what came before the video started rolling, but this whole situation was a little out of hand.  Dealing with violent people is stressful, but you can't lose control and swear up a storm.  I've been sucker punched a few times on calls and had many many many violent people in my care, whether it is from behavioral problems, dementia, drugs, seizures or some other cause, and I have never responded like that.  And ALWAYS assume that someone, somewhere, somehow is getting everything you do and say on film.


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## STXmedic (Oct 29, 2014)

Maybe I'm missing something, but all I'm seeing is a foul-mouthed fire crew pinning a guy to the ground, probably waiting for PD...  

I have no idea how the stretcher got flipped; we don't know if the patient lunged and flipped it himself or if the fire crew flipped it intentionally (I sure as hell hope not). If a patient gets combative while I'm in close proximity, though, he's going to get pinned down. As for the swearing, big deal. If I get punched, I'll probably swear a bit too. Especially since I already have the vernacular of a sailor


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## medicsb (Oct 29, 2014)

I can understand cursing and losing ones temper for a moment.  But, this is a situation where, at the very least, someone should step in and calms things down and refocus team members to the task at hand (taking care of the patient).  It sounds like the same guy running his mouth, one of the other guys should have sent him back to the truck to cool off.


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## teedubbyaw (Oct 29, 2014)

medicsb said:


> I can understand cursing and losing ones temper for a moment.  But, this is a situation where, at the very least, someone should step in and calms things down and refocus team members to the task at hand (taking care of the patient).  It sounds like the same guy running his mouth, one of the other guys should have sent him back to the truck to cool off.



I can't understand. I get what you're saying and agree, but no one should have to calm a firefighter down. This is his job, he knows the risks, and he should know not to act like a hot headed teenager, especially if the patient is altered. 

I will be surprised if he is not terminated. Completely uncalled for and unprofessional.


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## medicsb (Oct 29, 2014)

teedubbyaw said:


> I can't understand. I get what you're saying and agree, but no one should have to calm a firefighter down. This is his job, he knows the risks, and he should know not to act like a hot headed teenager, especially if the patient is altered.
> 
> I will be surprised if he is not terminated. Completely uncalled for and unprofessional.



A fire-fighter is still human, so some sort of outburst after getting punched is understandable along with anger.  We know the risks involved with the job, but it doesn't make turning a cheek easy.  I agree he should have calmed himself down, but his colleagues should have stepped up and helped calm him down when he did not if for no other reason than his anger becomes a liability.  But, yes, it was ultimately uncalled for and unprofessional.


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## exodus (Oct 29, 2014)

Looking at the mugshots, it also looks like he was punched a few times.


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## OnceAnEMT (Oct 30, 2014)

medicsb said:


> I can understand cursing and losing ones temper for a moment.  But, this is a situation where, at the very least, someone should step in and calms things down and refocus team members to the task at hand (taking care of the patient).  It sounds like the same guy running his mouth, one of the other guys should have sent him back to the truck to cool off.



I agree. He is the only one running his mouth (others chime in, but simply to follow). If someone manned up and stepped back with him, this video wouldn't be getting anywhere. That firefighter had no control over this scene. Honestly it seemed they didn't even have a plan of action at that point. The crew needed a focus reminder.

The blatant cursing directed at bystanders ought to be grounds for suspension if not termination. That's bad PR if nothing else.

Also, what kind of first responder whines about being swung at? Half the time those same patients are still swinging when they come in the ED, and I've never even heard of staff having an issue like this.


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## irishboxer384 (Oct 30, 2014)

Doesn't seem to be anything wrong with what the crew are doing- it takes several men to safely restrain a man/woman no matter how big/small. The ONLY 2 things I think they did wrong was:

1- "you're ****ing dead meat"- which is a direct threat
2- explaining yourself to the public...you don't have to justify yourself to bystanders EVER...unless the bystander is a relative but even then you have a job to do which is more important than explaining what youre doing...


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## m0nster986 (Oct 30, 2014)

Speechless, one word... professionalism


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## karaya (Oct 30, 2014)

irishboxer384 said:


> Doesn't seem to be anything wrong with what the crew are doing- it takes several men to safely restrain a man/woman no matter how big/small. The ONLY 2 things I think they did wrong was:
> 
> 1- "you're ******* dead meat"- which is a direct threat
> 2- explaining yourself to the public...you don't have to justify yourself to bystanders EVER...unless the bystander is a relative but even then you have a job to do which is more important than explaining what youre doing...



Even after behaving like a complete ***?  If you don't think you don't have to justify your performance to the public in any manner, then I'd suggest you're in the wrong business.  That self-righteous arrogance is part of the problem as to how the public perceives emergency services, and unfortunately, many do not look at that in a positive light.   The public spectacle these firefighters made of themselves goes beyond any reasonable explanation and only worsens negative perceptions.


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## irishboxer384 (Oct 30, 2014)

karaya said:


> Even after behaving like a complete ***?  If you don't think you don't have to justify your performance to the public in any manner, then I'd suggest you're in the wrong business.  That self-righteous arrogance is part of the problem as to how the public perceives emergency services, and unfortunately, many do not look at that in a positive light.   The public spectacle these firefighters made of themselves goes beyond any reasonable explanation and only worsens negative perceptions.



I never said you don't have to justify yourself to the public in 'any manner'- I said you don't have to justify yourself to BYSTANDERS... and from experience it can be detrimental to do so- giving the public a target to direct its frustration on. But if you describe common sense preventing a riot or public disorder confrontation by dis-engaging from the public directly at an emergency scene as "self-righteous and arrogant" then it's a great thing we don't operate together.


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## karaya (Oct 30, 2014)

irishboxer384 said:


> I never said you don't have to justify yourself to the public in 'any manner'- I said you don't have to justify yourself to BYSTANDERS... and from experience it can be detrimental to do so- giving the public a target to direct its frustration on. But if you describe common sense preventing a riot or public disorder confrontation by dis-engaging from the public directly at an emergency scene as "self-righteous and arrogant" then it's a great thing we don't operate together.



I don't think I'd go as far to say the scene in the video was on the verge of a riot or even public disorder.  Clearly, the bystanders were upset with what they were hearing from the firefighters, and from my viewpoint, rightfully so.  With more attention to self control from the firefighters, I tend to believe it would have helped tempered the situation.   I think in any event, the bystanders should have been given an apology for horrible behavior with hat in hand.  And maybe they were given an apology  -- we didn't get to see the entire event to conclusion.


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## irishboxer384 (Oct 30, 2014)

karaya said:


> I don't think I'd go as far to say the scene in the video was on the verge of a riot or even public disorder.



I don't think it was on the verge of a riot or public disorder either- but how quickly in these situations do things escalate? Being distracted by an angry member/members of the public can quickly deteriorate a situation. Yes there was bad language, but that doesn't warrant the local dept issuing a public apology for it's bad language, more of a 'lessons learned' briefing would have been more useful in the long term. But that's my lowly opinion and this is an internet forum.

10 people can watch the same video and come out with very different opinions, as a producer I'm sure you're much more aware of this than me!


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## karaya (Oct 30, 2014)

I understand about the distraction part.  Keep focused, stay on patient care.  But, if time permits, take a moment to interact and offer an explanation to the bystanders.  A GOOD communicator can get a lot of negative impressions turned around real quick.  I do it all the time.  We're filming with EMS on a cardiac arrest call on a side walk and the bystanders are watching from the sides and they see us with the medics filming.  Sometimes I'll hear remarks of disapproval from the crowd.  After the call is finished, I always take a few moments and introduce myself to the dissenters and explain who we are and how our footage is used to educate EMT's and paramedics.  It's amazing to see how quickly this changes their negative perceptions about our filming to a positive one.    It's this type of interaction that can leave lasting impressions and it's that same type of communication emergency services needs to learn.

I've spent several weeks working the riots here in Ferguson, and many of the mistakes I've seen by the police in particular, was their failure to effectively communicate.  Especially with the media which eventually backlashed on the police with inaccurate information being distributed by the press.   I observed this first hand from day one of the rioting and I was stunned how law enforcement never caught on to this.  We may be going into "round two" of this any day now and it will be interesting if they learned anything from their mistakes.


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## irishboxer384 (Oct 30, 2014)

karaya said:


> I understand about the distraction part.  Keep focused, stay on patient care.  But, if time permits, take a moment to interact and offer an explanation to the bystanders.  A GOOD communicator can get a lot of negative impressions turned around real quick.  I do it all the time.  We're filming with EMS on a cardiac arrest call on a side walk and the bystanders are watching from the sides and they see us with the medics filming.  Sometimes I'll hear remarks of disapproval from the crowd.  After the call is finished, I always take a few moments and introduce myself to the dissenters and explain who we are and how our footage is used to educate EMT's and paramedics.  It's amazing to see how quickly this changes their negative perceptions about our filming to a positive one.    It's this type of interaction that can leave lasting impressions and it's that same type of communication emergency services needs to learn.
> 
> I've spent several weeks working the riots here in Ferguson, and many of the mistakes I've seen by the police in particular, was their failure to effectively communicate.  Especially with the media which eventually backlashed on the police with inaccurate information being distributed by the press.   I observed this first hand from day one of the rioting and I was stunned how law enforcement never caught on to this.  We may be going into "round two" of this any day now and it will be interesting if they learned anything from their mistakes.



I understand and agree, but journalists are often seen as a neutral party in conflicted areas. Turning up to any crisis in any uniform is always going to come with stigma attached- especially the police...rightly or wrongly. I think with emergency services it is merely the fact you are in the public eye and more liable to scrutiny than other professions. 

I personally find the police in the US alot more aggressive than in the uk- even in Northern Ireland where they dealt with constant threat of snipers, bombings and shootings all whilst doing regular police work...they knew when to turn on the aggressive/passive stance. In this situation though (the video posted), other than bad language I don't think the crew did anything wrong, post video one of the crew might well have spoken with the family/neighbours as you suggested but this doesn't make quite a good news story.


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## avdrummerboy (Oct 30, 2014)

These are hard to armchair quarterback, regardless if it's police, fire, whomever. Not seeing the whole incident and only seeing the aftermath, there's not much to say. You have to look at it from the fire guys perspective, those of us in this game long enough have been there; we've been swung at, spit on, etc. We know the rush that you get and much like a law enforcement officer I'm going home at the end of my shift alive and in one piece. So from that end, yes, being defensive is okay, the force seemed reasonable given that we know that he was violent (pretty sure we've all woken up the beast with narcan at least once!) The verbal abuse from the fire captain is not needed and should require some form of formal discipline, we need to be able to act under pressure in situations like this and do so calmly, the constant barrage of swearing and telling family and bystanders to 'get the f*** back' and 'stop recording me,' not gonna fly in the public or department eye. Fire/ EMS is the only public service that aren't **normally** seen as 'the bad guys.' That perspective of our line of work will change quickly with guys like this at the wheel.


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## epipusher (Oct 30, 2014)

Unprofessional.


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## Chewy20 (Oct 30, 2014)

Telling everyone they are going to jail for standing around and threatening the pt? Get off your high horse and enjoy the suspension bud.


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## systemet (Oct 31, 2014)

Well, that's not going to look good in civil court.

No physical restraint process ever looks good on video.  Some look better than others.  This one does not.  I wonder how much this loss of self control and professionalism is going to cost this guy and the people standing next to him.


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## STXmedic (Oct 31, 2014)

systemet said:


> Well, that's not going to look good in civil court.
> 
> No physical restraint process ever looks good on video.  Some look better than others.  This one does not.  I wonder how much this loss of self control and professionalism is going to cost this guy and the people standing next to him.


He's in the FD, not private EMS. Probably not a damn thing.


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## OnceAnEMT (Oct 31, 2014)

systemet said:


> Well, that's not going to look good in civil court.
> 
> No physical restraint process ever looks good on video.  Some look better than others.



I completely disagree. There are legit, safe ways to restrain someone x4. For it to look good on video you just need bights instead of tails ("safety knots") and a crew that is cool, calm, collected, and mature. As well, what you REALLY need is the context. Why are we restraining this patient? As seen in this video, we really don't know if the patient was truly combative to the point of requiring restraints.


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## Tigger (Oct 31, 2014)

I see no context here. I am not sure where some of you are getting the "narcan slam" or whatnot. There are such things as combative patients who are not on drugs that EMS can (incidentally) antagonize, not that it matters.

If you hit me some cursing will probably result. But I'm not going to keep berating the patient especially knowing full well that a camera is there. If you're in public, you have to look professional. No excuses.


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## avdrummerboy (Oct 31, 2014)

My narcan reference was merely an example, I do not know what happened here, just that I've been on many an OD call where narcan is pushed and the pt. comes around violently.


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## Nightmare (Oct 31, 2014)

Video shows next to nothing worthwhile to explain the situation...but it does show that the FD lost their cool, if this was an overdose call....where is PD...if there was any hint that the patient could be combative...where was PD? Yes i understand sometimes units are tied up and nobody is available or they are so far away it takes awhile for them to get there but unless this person was dead/dying...stage and wait, PD is trained to handle these situations much better than us (and they have a gun) so much unexplained and i think so much that could have been handled better.


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## DesertMedic66 (Nov 1, 2014)

Nightmare said:


> Video shows next to nothing worthwhile to explain the situation...but it does show that the FD lost their cool, if this was an overdose call....where is PD...if there was any hint that the patient could be combative...where was PD? Yes i understand sometimes units are tied up and nobody is available or they are so far away it takes awhile for them to get there but unless this person was dead/dying...stage and wait, PD is trained to handle these situations much better than us (and they have a gun) so much unexplained and i think so much that could have been handled better.


Because dispatch is always 100% accurate with the information they are given on the nature of the call? If I had a nickel for every "unknown medical aid" that turned out to be a call involving drugs, I would have gas money for a while. 

Where was PD when a 35 year old fell off a ladder, hit his head and gets combative for us? Or the seizure patient who is hypoxic? Or the diabetic patient? Heck if PD responded to every call where there may be a hint that the patient could go combative we might as well just have an officer in the ambulance because it's a decent number of calls.


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## ViolynEMT (Nov 1, 2014)

The pt had been assaulting his father  and then turned to the firefighter and started to assault him. Got some good punches in there. Four firefighters are on paid administrative leave. 2 firefighters were hit. The pt has been arrested and there is an ongoing investigation. The pt's father is being charged with one count of aggravated assaulted. The Glendale FD apparently states: "Our current policy states that if you are in a physical altercation and you are in fear for yourself, the crew, and the public, you can use any means necessary to subdue the attacker," said Burdick.
I think the firefighter went way overboard. I don't like to say too much I wasn't there. Didn't see what happened before the video. The firefighter definitely had some trouble controlling his anger. And where were the police? 
I think it was ridiculous that the FF was threatening to have many family members arrested.


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## John E (Nov 1, 2014)

I bet they're rethinking that decision to wear shorts...

Seriously, the whole thing, from the one guy telling the camera operator to stop to the clown threatening to have everyone arrested was a complete, total, and epic ****ing disaster on the part of everyone involved that all I could think of was that the shorts must be really uncomfortable when you have to kneel down on hot pavement.

The entire crew needs to be disciplined and the patient needs to be prosecuted.

Everyone walks away unhappy, a perfect compromise...


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## exodus (Nov 2, 2014)

ViolynEMT said:


> The pt had been assaulting his father  and then turned to the firefighter and started to assault him. Got some good punches in there. Four firefighters are on paid administrative leave. 2 firefighters were hit. The pt has been arrested and there is an ongoing investigation. The pt's father is being charged with one count of aggravated assaulted. The Glendale FD apparently states: "Our current policy states that if you are in a physical altercation and you are in fear for yourself, the crew, and the public, you can use any means necessary to subdue the attacker," said Burdick.
> I think the firefighter went way overboard. I don't like to say too much I wasn't there. Didn't see what happened before the video. The firefighter definitely had some trouble controlling his anger. And where were the police?
> I think it was ridiculous that the FF was threatening to have many family members arrested.



I didn't see any injuries on the father when they interviewed him. I did see the pt's face all swollen up with a black eye though. The father also denied in the interview that the pt ever assaulted him, and his physical appearance backs that up.

The FF's ****ed up, bottom line. If they didn't they wouldn't be on leave.


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## exodus (Nov 2, 2014)

John E said:


> I bet they're rethinking that decision to wear shorts...
> 
> Seriously, the whole thing, from the one guy telling the camera operator to stop to the clown threatening to have everyone arrested was a complete, total, and epic ******* disaster on the part of everyone involved that all I could think of was that the shorts must be really uncomfortable when you have to kneel down on hot pavement.
> 
> ...


If you're going to file charges on every patient that ever hits you, you're going to spend a lot of time in a court room. Occupation hazard, it happens. Get over it.  The only time charges should be filed is if the person is in a proper state of mind.


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## ViolynEMT (Nov 2, 2014)

I just want to make it clear that I am not, in any way, defending  any part of what the FF'S did. I live in Phoenix  and was just reporting. The information  that I put in my last post  was taken  directly  from a news source. And we know how reliable  they are. Lol


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## Tigger (Nov 2, 2014)

exodus said:


> If you're going to file charges on every patient that ever hits you, you're going to spend a lot of time in a court room. Occupation hazard, it happens. Get over it.  The only time charges should be filed is if the person is in a proper state of mind.



If you're drunk/on drugs and assault and injure me you bet I will file charges. They chose to get drunk, they can deal with the consequences.


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## John E (Nov 2, 2014)

exodus said:


> If you're going to file charges on every patient that ever hits you, you're going to spend a lot of time in a court room. Occupation hazard, it happens. Get over it.  The only time charges should be filed is if the person is in a proper state of mind.




Well given the fact that I work on film sets for pay and running/racing events as a volunteer the likelihood of me getting hit is pretty slim but I'm pretty sure that I'd let the prosecuter file charges against anyone who might assault me.


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## irishboxer384 (Nov 3, 2014)

exodus said:


> If you're going to file charges on every patient that ever hits you, you're going to spend a lot of time in a court room. Occupation hazard, it happens. Get over it.  The only time charges should be filed is if the person is in a proper state of mind.



Last time I checked fire fighters and medics don't get paid to get hit by the general public, be it by someone of 'proper state of mind' or not.


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## OnceAnEMT (Nov 3, 2014)

irishboxer384 said:


> Last time I checked fire fighters and medics don't get paid to get hit by the general public, be it by someone of 'proper state of mind' or not.



Exactly. I think the consensus here is that as responders we wouldn't necessarily bend over and take it, we just wouldn't dish it out in return.

That said, yay for working in a hospital where it is a felony if a patient assaults staff. Oh wait, not unless that staff member has taken a CE course in crisis prevention!


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## johnrsemt (Nov 3, 2014)

Problem is:  anything we do to subdue a patient looks like assault,  especially when the public only records from when we start 'fighting' with the patient.
I have had patients that get upset when we start IV's;  I would hate to see what papoosing a child looks like on video


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## DesertMedic66 (Nov 3, 2014)

irishboxer384 said:


> Last time I checked fire fighters and medics don't get paid to get hit by the general public, be it by someone of 'proper state of mind' or not.


So then you would file charges for seizure patients, head trauma patients, or diabetic patients who are combative?


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## irishboxer384 (Nov 3, 2014)

DesertEMT66 said:


> So then you would file charges for seizure patients, head trauma patients, or diabetic patients who are combative?



How about people under the influence of alcohol or substance abusers?


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## DesertMedic66 (Nov 3, 2014)

irishboxer384 said:


> How about people under the influence of alcohol or substance abusers?


Those weren't the ones I listed. Saying that charges should be filed on everyone who assults/is combative with EMS is a very horrible blanket statement. Imagine getting T-bones at an intersection and waking up a couple of days later with an assult/battery charge on you that you had no control of.


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## irishboxer384 (Nov 3, 2014)

DesertEMT66 said:


> Those weren't the ones I listed. Saying that charges should be filed on everyone who assults/is combative with EMS is a very horrible blanket statement. Imagine getting T-bones at an intersection and waking up a couple of days later with an assult/battery charge on you that you had no control of.



And where did I write what you just stated??


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## DesertMedic66 (Nov 3, 2014)

irishboxer384 said:


> And where did I write what you just stated??



Right here: 





irishboxer384 said:


> Last time I checked fire fighters and medics don't get paid to get hit by the general public, be it by someone of 'proper state of mind' or not.


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## irishboxer384 (Nov 3, 2014)

So by saying medics and firefighters dont get paid to be hit that's me saying "charges should be filed on everyone who assults/is combative with EMS"

Are we both reading and writing in English here?


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## DesertMedic66 (Nov 3, 2014)

irishboxer384 said:


> So by saying medics and firefighters dont get paid to be hit that's me saying "charges should be filed on everyone who assults/is combative with EMS"
> 
> Are we both reading and writing in English here?


The part where you said "be it by someone of 'proper state of mind' or not. That to me means anyone who knows what they are doing or does not know what they are doing.


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## irishboxer384 (Nov 3, 2014)

Read through my posts if you can be bothered- at no point did I even mention filing charges on ANYONE, you seem to have taken something and ran with it. Does it say on your job application that you are expected to be hit at work? Because that is all that I wrote...the rest is you assuming something I never even hinted at or intended.


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## DesertMedic66 (Nov 3, 2014)

I guess my confusion was when you quoted another post that was solely directed at filing charges on people who assult providers.


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## Joey DeMartino (Jan 25, 2015)

Seems like Cap. might benefit from a little cultural diversity & sensitivity training.  

 He could have walked away from this one. There were a couple of pretty calm-big bruisers available to take over.  No more Red Bull for you. 

 Been there- so I won't judge. But I just can't justify the verbal abuse. Maybe sign language education would have been a fairly useful tool here as well.


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## johnrsemt (Jan 25, 2015)

Why shouldn't people who assualt healthcare workers be brought up on charges?  even if it is a mental problem or they are drunk?  If they attack a civilian they are arrested and prosecuted; although sometimes they are found not guilty due to mental issues.  But they are prosecuted.  
Here in Utah there is a bill being brought before the state law makers that is hopefully going to change it so that if an inmate attacks an EMT or Nurse at a prison or Jail it is a felony just like if they attack a LEO;  because right now it is just a misdemeanor. 

But in 16 years in EMS with probably 20 or so assualts committed on me I have only had 2 go to jail, and only one get prosecuted.  "They were too drunk to know better".  Well people who drink and drive and assault someone are too drunk to know better and they are being prosecuted more and more.
  But when I used to work retail EVERYONE that ever assaulted me went to jail or prison over it,  all 4 of them in 13 years.  

Just shows that EMS is the low person on the totem pole of public workers.


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