# Army medic gets life in prison



## daedalus (Feb 21, 2009)

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/21/medic.detainee.deaths/index.html

I almost want to feel bad for this medic. Who knows what the psychological toll of war is? What does it take for some to snap? Perhaps he is a good man at heart serving our great country, or perhaps a murder taking advantage of his access to Iraqi prisoners.


----------



## Veneficus (Feb 21, 2009)

perhaps a scapegoat?

But if people are going to be charged with crimes in Iraq, Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld should be at the top of the list.


----------



## ffemt8978 (Feb 21, 2009)

Let's try and avoid generalized political statements, please.


----------



## daedalus (Feb 21, 2009)

Veneficus said:


> perhaps a scapegoat?



Kind of where I am leaning...
:sad:


----------



## DavethetrainWreck (Feb 24, 2009)

The Horrors of war can screw some of the best people up. I know some guys who came back but sadly enough it seems they left part of thier humanity on the battle field. It really hurts to see the mark the war leaves on people who fight it.


----------



## CAOX3 (Feb 24, 2009)

*Leahy was acquitted of murder in a separate incident involving the death of another Iraqi in January 2007.*

Scapegoat?  What about this other incident.  Can he really be that unlucky to be charged with murder twice.

Just basing my opinion on whats in the small article.


----------



## Veneficus (Feb 24, 2009)

CAOX3 said:


> *Leahy was acquitted of murder in a separate incident involving the death of another Iraqi in January 2007.*
> 
> Scapegoat?  What about this other incident.  Can he really be that unlucky to be charged with murder twice.
> 
> Just basing my opinion on whats in the small article.



I don't doubt that he did kill people. I just wonder about his level of responsibility. as it was said, combat changes people. To survive many have to embrace the very basic animal instincts, striking out at those in a competing social group with indifference to the value of life is part of that.

It goes back to the old argument, is it the private or the general who is responsible. I think the general. Others will disagree. But in the history of the argument, very few minds were ever changed.


----------



## brice (Feb 24, 2009)

Wow thats a bad deal.


----------



## CAOX3 (Feb 24, 2009)

These were detainees, they werent on the battlefield.


----------



## daedalus (Feb 24, 2009)

CAOX3 said:


> These were detainees, they werent on the battlefield.



Yes but imagine being in a culture where carrying a gun was part of the norm, where you not only will need to kill people but also have the duty and responsibility to kill people. Like it was said, you may need to embrace very basic instincts to get through the experience.


----------



## AJ Hidell (Feb 24, 2009)

CAOX3 said:


> These were detainees, they werent on the battlefield.


Ever been to Iraq?

The entire country was a battlefield at that time.  We were sleeping in our body armor on base.  There were no safe zones that were not battlefields.  Ever been in a prison?  Detainees do not stop fighting simply because they are in custody.

It's all about context and perspective, neither of which can you comprehend just from watching CNN.


----------



## medic417 (Feb 24, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> .
> 
> It's all about context and perspective, neither of which can you comprehend just from watching CNN.




You mean CNN doesn't give me all the facts of life?:unsure:


----------



## CAOX3 (Feb 24, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> Ever been to Iraq?
> 
> The entire country was a battlefield at that time.  We were sleeping in our body armor on base.  There were no safe zones that were not battlefields.  Ever been in a prison?  Detainees do not stop fighting simply because they are in custody.
> 
> It's all about context and perspective, neither of which can you comprehend just from watching CNN.



He shot an un armed, blindfolded, handcuffed human being in the back of the head in his jail cell. 

Here is the armys statement

*There is no excuse!

The four men were handcuffed and blindfolded, then taken out and shot in the head. Two of the killers, acting on instructions from the third, removed the plastic handcuffs and the bloody blindfolds, and shoved the bodies into a canal. Then the three killers left the scene and rejoined their unit. Ho hum.

But now, the three men -- US Army Sgt. John Hatley, Sgt. 1st Class Joseph P. Mayo and Sgt. Michael P. Leahy Jr. -- face charges of


premeditated murder, conspiracy to commit premeditated murder and obstruction of justice

according to an Army statement released last week, as reported in a short AP dispatch carried by the Washington *Post


----------



## Sasha (Feb 24, 2009)

CAn you provide a link to your source of that article?

I believe some people use "I was in the war" as an excuse to break the law, and I highly doubt that he's a scape goat twice. Before someone jumps down my throat, I understand it's a horrible experience, but at what point do we stop making excuses? Not everyone who serves in the army are honor worthy young men and women who do it for the dignity of protecting their nation. Some do it because they have no other future, and others do it just to have the gun.

He deserves to be in jail


----------



## CAOX3 (Feb 24, 2009)

There are about a thousand articles on the internet now that they have been convited.

I cant even imagine what it is like to go to war.  What it must do to you and your family.

I support every troop that is there or has spent time there 100%.  This is inexcusable, murder is still murder.   

Just a very sad story for everyone involved.


----------



## Sasha (Feb 24, 2009)

CAOX3 said:


> There are about a thousand articles on the internet now that they have been convited.
> 
> I cant even imagine what it is like to go to war.  What it must do to you and your family.
> 
> ...



Yes, but you posted a specific article. Can you post a link to it? Usually when one wants any sort of credibility, they back up their sources. It looked more like a commentary to me instead of something factual


----------



## karaya (Feb 24, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Yes, but you posted a specific article. Can you post a link to it? Usually when one wants any sort of credibility, they back up their sources. It looked more like a commentary to me instead of something factual


 
Some facts mixed with an anti-war slant.  Here is the link where CAOX3 obtained his so-called information.

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=47478

Come on CAOX3!! I don't want to get into political rants about the war in Iraq, but if your going to pass yourself off with some credibility, at least do it from reputable news site and not some anti-war blog. Geez!


----------



## AJ Hidell (Feb 24, 2009)

CAOX3 said:


> This is inexcusable, murder is still murder.


Okay, let's go with that theory.

The persons were being detained for what?  Murder.

The penalty for murder is?  Death.

Timothy Mc Veigh -- an unarmed and restrained man -- was taken from his prison cell and put to death for murder.  We do it all the time in America.  So what exactly is the difference here?


----------



## Sasha (Feb 24, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> Okay, let's go with that theory.
> 
> The persons were being detained for what?  Murder.
> 
> ...



Why are you trying to justify it!?


----------



## CAOX3 (Feb 24, 2009)

Her you go, these reputable enough for you.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/20/AR2009022000295.html

and another

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/27/world/middleeast/27abuse.html

and another

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=6919478

and another

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2009/02/ap_witness_Iraq_021809/


----------



## CAOX3 (Feb 24, 2009)

AJ Hidell said:


> Okay, let's go with that theory.
> 
> The persons were being detained for what?  Murder.
> 
> ...




Whats the difference?

If I have to explain that to you......


----------



## karaya (Feb 24, 2009)

CAOX3 said:


> Her you go, these reputable enough for you.


 

These are certainly more reputable than your first attempt.


----------



## Fragger (Feb 24, 2009)

Good info thanks :wacko:


----------



## AJ Hidell (Feb 24, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Why are you trying to justify it!?


I am not.  It's a philosophical argument, not a legal one.


----------



## CAOX3 (Feb 26, 2009)

Yeah he was put to death after a trial where a group of his peers found him guilty.  

Just because you are at war does not make you judge, jury and executioner.


----------



## AJ Hidell (Feb 26, 2009)

CAOX3 said:


> Yeah he was put to death after a trial where a group of his peers found him guilty.
> 
> Just because you are at war does not make you judge, jury and executioner.


You're attempting to apply concepts of Western law to a third world country, where their citizens enjoy no such protections.


----------



## Veneficus (Feb 26, 2009)

*the ethics of war.*

before trying to apply peacetime civillian justice of a western culture, some background on the specific nature of war must be considered. Because this semester is being quite merciless, I cannot sped the hours it would take to touch on the topic but suggest looking into:

The Prince, Machiavelli

The art of war, Sun Tzu

For those that need a more modern approach:

On War, Clausewitz


War is hell. Hell is the impossibility of reason. All is fair in love and war (contraction of people older than me)


----------



## mycrofft (Feb 26, 2009)

*LOAC and the American serviceperson*

Law Of Armed Conflict, our folks get that training before they are allowed to fire for combat qualification. medical personnel also receive their own version of Geneva Convention which is that medical persons fight only to save their lives, their patients lives, and to safeguard their facility and materials. (If you happen to be around the rest of your unit, who are all potentially your patients...just don't take the chain gun and go postal).

(And yes, I know, that red cross makes a dandy sniper target).

Neither LOAC nor Geneva allow for summary execution, nor to allow a prisoner to be summarily executed by others (i.e., put them down handcuffed outside the gates and wait), and that goes double for medical personnel. It's the law, our law.


----------



## CAOX3 (Feb 26, 2009)

Our we really arguing this point.


----------



## el Murpharino (Feb 26, 2009)

We have seen this type of behavior from many people in this capacity both in the US and abroad...as recently as Abu Ghraib to the Zimbardo Study (Stanford Prison Experiment) in the 70's, and probably way back to the dark ages.  Combined with the fact that the Army has lowered their enlistment requirements over the past few years - this guy could have been a loose cannon from the get-go.    

The horrors and stresses of war may lead these men to do things they may normally do.  Look at the My-Lai massacre during Vietnam.  Retribution is a powerful motive...

I can understand why this soldier would have done this having personally seen the atrocities of the war in Iraq, but I just can't condone it.  I'll be going to Afghanistan in the fall, let's see if things improve there by then.


----------



## Veneficus (Feb 27, 2009)

el Murpharino said:


> We have seen this type of behavior from many people in this capacity both in the US and abroad...as recently as Abu Ghraib to the Zimbardo Study (Stanford Prison Experiment) in the 70's, and probably way back to the dark ages.  Combined with the fact that the Army has lowered their enlistment requirements over the past few years - this guy could have been a loose cannon from the get-go.
> 
> The horrors and stresses of war may lead these men to do things they may normally do.  Look at the My-Lai massacre during Vietnam.  Retribution is a powerful motive...
> 
> I can understand why this soldier would have done this having personally seen the atrocities of the war in Iraq, but I just can't condone it.  I'll be going to Afghanistan in the fall, let's see if things improve there by then.



I still think the question is how far up the chain should responsibility for this go?


----------

