# What's next?  Fire or Medic?



## EMTFL (Dec 29, 2008)

So I'm at another crossroad and I've been told so many different things, I have no clue what to do.

My goal is Firefighter Medic.  However, I'm not sure if I should go to fire school first, then medic, or attempt medic, then fire.

Here in Florida I hear that they have such a shortage of medics, you might not even need your fire; the medic training itself is your golden ticket.

Others say no, get your fire certification, and then attempt to get a Fire EMT position; but then I hear that fire departments get hundreds of applications for EMT Firefighter every month.

Where should I go from here?  Medic of Fire?  What are your opinions?

Thanks guys


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## daedalus (Dec 29, 2008)

Do you want to be a firefighter? Or, do you want to be a paramedic who is committed to spending the rest of your life learning and re-learning medicine?

Not many of us here are friendly to the idea of FF/Medic.


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## VentMedic (Dec 29, 2008)

EMTFL said:


> Here in Florida I hear that they have such a shortage of medics, you might not even need your fire; the medic training itself is your golden ticket.


 
That may be true north of Orlando. The FDs in the southern half  of the state have more than their share of applicants who are already both FF and Paramedic certified.



1. Are you just wanting a job with the FD for the benefits? 

or 

2. Do you want to be a Fire Fighter but knows that one must also be a Paramedic to get hired?

or 

3. Do you want to be a medical professional?


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## Sasha (Dec 29, 2008)

Orange County and Oviedo Fire are the only two I've seen that you don't need fire to get hired, but you still must pass the same PAT.

Get your fire. Where are you located? Ask some of your local stations, but I would recommend getting your fire cert. You can find shift friendly medic schools a lot easier than you can find shift friendly fire schools, and if you wait long enough a lot of fire stations will put you through medic school, some, like Apopka FD down in Central Florida, have their own in house Medic school.

Also like to add that OCFD only took non fire medics because Rural Metro lost their Orange County transport contract, so they put all the non fire medics on roaming trucks in 12 hour shifts, and they get paid significantly less than fire medics.


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## VentMedic (Dec 29, 2008)

Sasha said:


> Orange County and Oviedo Fire are the only two I've seen that you don't need fire to get hired, but you still must pass the same PAT.
> 
> Get your fire. Where are you located? Ask some of your local stations, but I would recommend getting your fire cert. You can find *shift friendly* *medic schools* a lot easier than you can find shift friendly fire schools, and if you wait long enough a lot of *fire stations will put you through medic school,* some, like *Apopka FD down in Central Florida, have their own in house Medic school.*
> 
> Also like to add that OCFD only took *non fire medics because Rural Metro lost their Orange County transport contract, so they put all the non fire medics on roaming trucks in 12 hour shifts, and they get paid significantly less than fire medics*.


 
Okay BossyCow, it is my area and the administration.  (reference from another thread)

I think Sasha has just covered many of the problems faced in Florida and other Fire based EMS regions.


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## pumper12fireman (Dec 29, 2008)

First, go to fire school. Decide if you like emergency services and being an FF/EMT. If you do enjoy it, and make it, then you can make an informed decision based off experience. I will be honest, I went to medic too soon. I did not realize how MUCH responsibility lies within a medic's hands. It made for a tough learning curve. Secondly, DO NOT become a medic to get a fire job. Worst mistake you can make.


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## akflightmedic (Dec 29, 2008)

Didn't you have some driving issues or was that someone else?

Also, weren't you looking to relocate or was that someone else as well?

If you are indeed the same person from the questions above, you have a lot of focusing to do. You need to sit down and figure out exactly what it is you want to do.

Do you want to move or do you want to go to school. If you go to school, will someone hire you afterwards with your driving record?

EMT/FFs are a dime a dozen in FL, and the majority of them have clean records.

Find your path, then ask us, but right now you are steering all over the road.


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## EMTFL (Dec 30, 2008)

Yes, that was me.  

Essentially I want to be a firefighter.  I believe I would enjoy medic, but I can't say for certain since I haven't worked as an EMT yet.  And truthfully, I don't want to hold such a huge responsibility and be the one "in charge" right now (obviously).  

I DO want to relocate, but I only want to relocate so that I can start my medical career.  I know it sounds silly to relocate across the country for a job that might only pay $10/hour, but sometimes, you have to start somewhere.  I was hoping to land a non-driver EMT position somewhere, relocate, and then start school there for fire.  

It's either that, or stick it out here for a bit and volunteer as an EMT to gain some experience.  Attend fire school in May, and then once I get certified in that, I should be close to being clear with my driving record.

I'm just a little lost and need some direction, truthfully.  

Here's what it boils down to:

-I'd love to live in Colorado if possible, but only if I was able to get a non-driver EMT position somewhere (prior to moving of course).

-I want to attend fire school.  That's for sure.

-I wouldn't mind staying in Florida, but again, only if I could find a non-driver EMT position.  And from what I can see, it's extremely rare, especially considering we have so many EMTs in this state that have CLEAN records.


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## akflightmedic (Dec 30, 2008)

So take a moment and be honest with us, so that others may learn and maybe do or not do the same things as you have.




EMTFL said:


> Yes, that was me.
> 
> Essentially I want to be a firefighter.  I believe I would enjoy medic, but I can't say for certain since I haven't worked as an EMT yet.  And truthfully, I don't want to hold such a huge responsibility and be the one "in charge" right now (obviously).



If firefighting is your goal, then why did you go to EMT school first?
Did you do any career or job market research prior to going to school?
Did you enjoy EMT class and your clinicals; did it make you want more?




EMTFL said:


> I DO want to relocate, but I only want to relocate so that I can start my medical career.  I know it sounds silly to relocate across the country for a job that might only pay $10/hour, but sometimes, you have to start somewhere.  I was hoping to land a non-driver EMT position somewhere, relocate, and then start school there for fire.



You do BUT only to start a career which you are not sure you want to do anyways but basically HAVE to do to be a firefighter just about anywhere, so might as well. It is silly to relocate for a minimum wage job that exists in every single state, it is just a matter of obtaining it. 

What makes you think your chances of getting hired in CO are any better than FL?
Do you think there are less EMT-Bs there?
You could relocate within FL and most likely find a job, plus it would be a lot cheaper and you would be in the state where you want to be a firefighter (I presume).



EMTFL said:


> It's either that, or stick it out here for a bit and volunteer as an EMT to gain some experience.  Attend fire school in May, and then once I get certified in that, I should be close to being clear with my driving record.



Now that sounds like a plan (shudder). Despite how I feel about volunteering and what it does to our profession, if that is your only option, then what are you waiting for? Go get your feet wet and get in fire school. 

Have you contacted the fire schools to see if you will be allowed in with your record? That may be a factor in all your decisions as well.

Besides, if FL is ultimately where you wish to work, you do not need to be leaving the state and attending the fire academy else where as you will have very little chance at reciprocity. FL requires many more hours for FF training than most states and very rarely offers reciprocity.

I for example, was denied reciprocity for my fire certs and had to redo the FL FF academy when I relocated here from another state and I had many years experience under my belt. You will be attempting it with none.



EMTFL said:


> -I'd love to live in Colorado if possible, but only if I was able to get a non-driver EMT position somewhere (prior to moving of course).



Again, do some research about your new chosen career. Non-Driving EMT positions are RARE. It is typically the EMT who is driving. Very few, if any will hire a basic that can only ride shotgun. It is cost prohibitive as a private employer and increases liability or may create a hairy situation in any kind of public service model.



EMTFL said:


> -I want to attend fire school.  That's for sure.



Well go do that, but where?



EMTFL said:


> -I wouldn't mind staying in Florida, but again, only if I could find a non-driver EMT position.  And from what I can see, it's extremely rare, especially considering we have so many EMTs in this state that have CLEAN records.



It is rare everywhere. Now where do you want to live? It seems to me you are going about it backwards.


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## BossyCow (Dec 30, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> Okay BossyCow, it is my area and the administration.  (reference from another thread)
> 
> I think Sasha has just covered many of the problems faced in Florida and other Fire based EMS regions.



Why are there 'non fire medics' in a fire department? That makes no sense at all. Here, a medic in a fire department is fully trained as a firefighter to the same standard as every other firefighter. Those standards are set by the administration of the agency.  The OP is from your area, as is Sasha.. so to me.. since this is not an issue in the Northwest, tells me that it is a regional one.


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## VentMedic (Dec 30, 2008)

BossyCow said:


> Why are there 'non fire medics' in a fire department? That makes no sense at all. Here, a medic in a fire department is fully trained as a firefighter to the same standard as every other firefighter. Those standards are set by the administration of the agency. The OP is from your area, as is Sasha.. so to me.. since this is not an issue in the Northwest, tells me that it is a regional one.


 
There has never been any secret about Florida or California by the numerous threads about them.

Mostly it was a goodwill gesture to keep some non fire medics. So many really good Paramedics who have no interest in being FFs have lost their jobs when the areas covered by the private or county EMS companies they worked for were taken over by fire. This has included many who have been Paramedics for 20+ years and are well over the age of 40. A lot of EMS dedicated and experienced people have been lost to jobs other than EMT or Paramedic. This has happened in almost every region of the state. Unless you are a certified FF in Florida with a job at a FD, you may have no future in EMS or at least not for very long. Even the stronger County EMS systems must fight to remain separate. We recently had one of our better county EMS systems merge with Fire and go under the Sheriff's office for adminstration. 

Rural Metro in the Orlando area, EMSA in Marion County, Collier county, Hillsborough county and Broward County are just a few. Polk County EMS will be next.
http://www.newschief.com/article/20...itle=Polk_merger_plan_for_EMS__fire_draws_ire

Palm Beach Fire Rescue is the result of at least 16 different mergers.

Miami-Dade Fire Rescue is also the result of most of the EMS and Fire services in Dade County.

Besides Florida and California, there are similar issues in Pennsylvannia, Maryland, Ohio, Illinois, Michigan, and Washington D.C to name a few. FDs all over the country are again starting their own back room classrooms, bypassing the colleges, to make every FF a Paramedic. Memphis, TN and Kern County,CA are just a few of the FDs to announce doing their own training to get more Paramedics on the streets faster.

So no, this is not just my area, but it is a national issue as well. Just doing a quick glance at Washington state, it too has not been immune to many different mergers with fire and EMS.


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## Desert Ranger (Dec 30, 2008)

Some of us have gone to FLETC and are law enforcement, and are EMT's, as well as structural and wildland firefighters. So which are we? And does it matter as long as we are trained...


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## BossyCow (Dec 30, 2008)

Desert Ranger said:


> Some of us have gone to FLETC and are law enforcement, and are EMT's, as well as structural and wildland firefighters. So which are we? And does it matter as long as we are trained...



That's exactly my point.  Does it matter who runs the agency if the agency is run to a high standard. I see the combination of resources and infrastructure as a good thing. But, if its done with only a sideways nod towards maintaining either skills in fire or EMS then the issue is not fire vs EMS but in maintaining standards in skills.


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## VentMedic (Dec 30, 2008)

Desert Ranger said:


> Some of us have gone to FLETC and are law enforcement, and are EMT's, structural and wildland firefighters. So which are we? And does it matter as long as we are *trained*...


 


BossyCow said:


> That's exactly my point. Does it matter who runs the agency if the agency is run to a high standard. I see the combination of resources and infrastructure as a good thing. But, if its done with only a sideways nod towards maintaining either skills in fire or EMS then the issue is not fire vs EMS but in maintaining standards in skills.


 
Medical professionals should be educated and not just trained. There lies the problem that exists in EMS today. 

Too many are "Jack of all trades and master of none". To continue to view EMS as a trade school cert and not a profession does little to promote change for improvement.


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## Desert Ranger (Dec 30, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> Medical professionals should be educated and not just trained. There lies the problem that exists in EMS today.
> 
> Too many are "Jack of all trades and master of none". To continue to view EMS as a trade school cert and not a profession does little to promote change for improvement.



So are you saying that EMT B training is worthless and the park visitors that are my patients should fear for their lives since I only have training? BTW, been a "trained" EMT for 17 years.


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## BossyCow (Dec 30, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> Medical professionals should be educated and not just trained. There lies the problem that exists in EMS today.
> 
> Too many are "Jack of all trades and master of none". To continue to view EMS as a trade school cert and not a profession does little to promote change for improvement.





I don't see how this relates to fire.. it relates completely to the level or standard being set by the agency. High standards set by your employer will require meeting those standards to be hired and kept employed. Drop those standards and your applicants will sink to the lowest amount of effort required to get and keep the job. Not just EMS, but human nature.


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## VentMedic (Dec 30, 2008)

Desert Ranger said:


> So are you saying that EMT B training is worthless and the park visitors that are my patients should fear for their lives since I only have training? BTW, been a "trained" EMT for 17 years.


 
The discussion had been about Fire Medics. EMT-B is a useful first aid class which should be promoted for those who count as first responders. This includes the industrial setting where may companies do put their employees through similar training even if they aren't called "EMTs". But, an EMT and a Paramedic are not the same any more than a CNA and RN are.  If one wants to acheive professional status and repect, the appropriate level of education should accompany the skills.


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## VentMedic (Dec 30, 2008)

BossyCow said:


> I don't see how this relates to fire.. it relates completely to the level or standard being set by the agency. High standards set by your employer will require meeting those standards to be hired and kept employed. Drop those standards and your applicants will sink to the lowest amount of effort required to get and keep the job. Not just EMS, but human nature.


 
Why should one be forced to do two totally different jobs? If one wants to be a FF, why should they be a Paramedic?

If one wants to be a Paramedic, why should they be forced to be a FF? 

If one wants to be an RN, should they be forced to become a construction worker also to help build the new hospital wing?


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## Desert Ranger (Dec 30, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> The discussion had been about Fire Medics. EMT-B is a useful first aid class which should be promoted for those who count as first responders. This includes the industrial setting where may companies do put their employees through similar training even if they aren't called "EMTs". But, an EMT and a Paramedic are not the same any more than a CNA and RN are.  If one wants to acheive professional status and repect, the appropriate level of education should accompany the skills.



Jeez, seems as though my yearly LE refresher, bi-annual EMT refresher and monthly LE, fire and EMS training is just not enough to keep people safe or care for patients, not to mention my 17 years of experience. Guess I am in the wrong field. These four skill sets are required of a park ranger to maintain employment. Parks aren't cities where the hospital is minutes away. Minimum ground transport is more than an hour. Flight is 1.5 hours minimum.


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## VentMedic (Dec 30, 2008)

Desert Ranger said:


> Jeez, seems as though my yearly LE refresher, bi-annual EMT refresher and monthly LE, fire and EMS training is just not enough to keep people safe or care for patients, not to mention my 17 years of experience. Guess I am in the wrong field.


 
I seriously hope you are not complaining about ALL those hours it takes to become an EMT or the CEUs to recertify. If you are, then yes you are in the wrong field.  EMT is at entry level status.  But you have made my point clearly.  Imagine if you were a Paramedic or an RN trying to juggle all those titles and responsibilities.


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## Desert Ranger (Dec 30, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> I seriously hope you are not complaining about ALL those hours it takes to become an EMT or the CEUs to recertify. If you are, then yes you are in the wrong field.  EMT is at entry level status.  But you have made my point clearly.  Imagine if you were a Paramedic or an RN trying to juggle all those titles and responsibilities.


Not complaining one bit, nor am I discounting the skills required for patient care by a EMT-B that you are doing. I chose this field, no one forced me to do any of it. And if you did one little bit of research, you would find that the professional standards  park rangers are held to are just as high as any other profession.


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## BossyCow (Dec 30, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> Why should one be forced to do two totally different jobs? If one wants to be a FF, why should they be a Paramedic?
> 
> If one wants to be a Paramedic, why should they be forced to be a FF?
> 
> If one wants to be an RN, should they be forced to become a construction worker also to help build the new hospital wing?



I see.. so you relate fire science to construction worker? Wow.. no elitism there at all!

My husband was not 'forced' to be a firefighter.. nor was he 'forced' to become a paramedic in order to be hired by a fire department. He has had a career in Emergency Response. Some of that has been fire.. for which he is highly trained and highly skilled. Some of that is in EMS where he also is highly trained and highly skilled. 

He has been an EMS instructor, and a fire officer. By the criteria you set.. those who provide patient care shouldn' be expected to do administrative work.. after all.. what does billing, budget management, fund raising and personnel management have to do with healthcare.. that should be left to those with degrees, training and experience in public administration right? And if you have dual degrees in both.. that means you are doing one poorly?


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## VentMedic (Dec 30, 2008)

Desert Ranger said:


> Not complaining one bit, nor am I discounting the skills required for patient care by a EMT-B that you are doing. I chose this field, no one forced me to do any of it. And if you did one little bit of research, you would find that the professional standards park rangers are held to are just as high as any other profession.


 
I did not say anything against Park Rangers. Coal miners, steel mill and dive boat operators also have first aid training that could be compared to EMT.  But, the higher you go in the profession, the more it should become a dedication and committment.   That is why we have specialists in almost every profession including medicine.


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## Desert Ranger (Dec 30, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> I did not say anything against Park Rangers. Coal miners, steel mill and dive boat operators also have first aid training that could be compared to EMT.  But, the higher you go in the profession, the more it should become a dedication and committment.   That is why we have specialists in almost every profession including medicine.



So now I am not dedicated? 
Elitist snobbery.


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## VentMedic (Dec 30, 2008)

BossyCow said:


> I see.. so you relate fire science to construction worker? Wow.. no elitism there at all!
> 
> My husband was *not 'forced' to be a firefighter.. nor was he 'forced' to become a paramedic in order to be hired by a fire department.* He has had a career in Emergency Response. Some of that has been fire.. for which he is highly *trained* and highly *skilled*. Some of that is in EMS where he also is highly *trained* and highly *skilled*.
> 
> He has been an EMS instructor, and a fire officer. By the criteria you set.. those who provide patient care shouldn' be expected to do administrative work.. after all.. what does billing, budget management, fund raising and personnel management have to do with healthcare.. that should be left to those with *degrees,* training and experience in public administration right? *And if you have dual degrees in both.. that means you are doing one poorly*?


 
Your husband's situation is different than others. Your own situation is also different in that as a volunteer, if a paid FD took over the volunteer EMS in your area, you would not be out of a paid job and have to relocate or change careers. 

Do you honestly think those 50 year old Paramedics in Florida, Calfornia or Pennsylvania are looking forward to the Fire academy? Do you think they want to change careers totally? 

Dual degrees? You mean like Paramedic and RRT or RN? They are both medical. RN and RRT both require the same prerequisites that SHOULD be required of a Paramedic. I was also a FF and I did not see anything that pertained to medicine in any of the fire science classes I have ever taken. So you too believe that the Paramedic is little more than a trained and skilled advanced first-aider who requires no education unless they want to push paper? That is exactly the point FDs have been making all along and why medical professionals are not in agreement with it. I suppose those on this forum that bothered to get an education along with the training and skills wasted their time if they want to be just a paramedic especially with the FDs.



Desert Ranger said:


> So now I am not dedicated?
> Elitist snobbery.


 
You yourself stated your job as Park Ranger and not EMT - medical professional.


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## Desert Ranger (Dec 30, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> Y
> 
> You yourself stated your job as Park Ranger and not EMT - medical professional.



Yep, Park Ranger. Skill set includes, EMT, structural/wildland fire/LE commission. And my B.A. and B.S. degrees. And by your standards, not a professional. Lord help the park visitor who falls prey to the non-professional EMT-B


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## EMTFL (Dec 30, 2008)

akflightmedic said:


> So take a moment and be honest with us, so that others may learn and maybe do or not do the same things as you have.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I guess I based it on what I was told.  At the time, I was living in Orlando, and there were no current openings for fire school.  Everything had a waiting list, so I did EMT first.  

Currently, I'm in Saint Augustine, and was considering First Coast Technical Institute.  They have classes that start in May and aren't even filled up yet.  They don't check your driving record either.



akflightmedic said:


> What makes you think your chances of getting hired in CO are any better than FL?
> Do you think there are less EMT-Bs there?



Essentially, yes.  That's all I was thinking, was that there were more available positions.  Plus I love Colorado, and just figured it to be my state of choice.  Also, at the time, I had thought my driving record wouldn't follow me out of state, but I've now found that's not true.



akflightmedic said:


> You could relocate within FL and most likely find a job, plus it would be a lot cheaper and you would be in the state where you want to be a firefighter (I presume).



I just feel as if I've already knocked out every possible avenue.  Currently I've applied with:

American Ambulance
Liberty Ambulance
Rural Metro
Lake Sumter EMS
SeaWorld 
Wet 'N Wild
Universal Studios
On-Site Medical Services

And of course, my resume can't go into the fire department since I don't have fire standards.

I just feel like I'm completely out of choices in this state, especially due to my driving record.  In addition to those, I also applied at:

Saint Vincent's Hospital
Flagler Hospital
Orlando Regional Hospital
Florida Hospital

All of which I applied for both EMT, ER Tech, and Patient Care Tech positions.


Someone help.


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## akflightmedic (Dec 30, 2008)

So what do you want to do?

Rather, where do you want to live and work?

Forget all the other stuff for a moment and answer where you wish to live.


Also, how old are you and what does your resume look like. Feel free to PM me.

Did any of those places give you an interview?


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## danguitar12345 (Dec 30, 2008)

*Answer*

Firefighter!!!!!!!!


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## VentMedic (Dec 30, 2008)

EMTFL said:


> I
> All of which I applied for both EMT, ER Tech, and Patient Care Tech positions.


 
In Florida, the CNA (Certified Nursing Assistant) may be required or helpful to land an ER Tech job. It is definitely required for Patient Care Tech along with a few hundred more hours (approx 600 - 700) of school.

http://www.scc-fl.edu/nursing/media/nursingassistant-packet.pdf

http://www.fccj.org/prospective/programs/data07_08/5707.html

If you stay in Florida, you will probably need both your FF and Paramedic certs, so why not pick a community college that offers both and do some education while you are making up your mind and letting the time run out on you driving record?


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## daedalus (Dec 30, 2008)

Desert Ranger said:


> Jeez, seems as though my yearly LE refresher, bi-annual EMT refresher and monthly LE, fire and EMS training is just not enough to keep people safe or care for patients, not to mention my 17 years of experience. Guess I am in the wrong field. These four skill sets are required of a park ranger to maintain employment. Parks aren't cities where the hospital is minutes away. Minimum ground transport is more than an hour. Flight is 1.5 hours minimum.



No. Its not enough, unless you are just providing initial care.

EMT is useful as  first aid class, like Ventmedic has said. It is not a professional medical certification.


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## daedalus (Dec 30, 2008)

Desert Ranger said:


> Yep, Park Ranger. Skill set includes, EMT, structural/wildland fire/LE commission. And my B.A. and B.S. degrees. And by your standards, not a professional. Lord help the park visitor who falls prey to the non-professional EMT-B



I detected no snobbery or elitism, and no one said you were not a professional. You are a park professional, not a medical professional. Are you being belligerent when faced with this? Im confused.


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## BossyCow (Dec 30, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> Your husband's situation is different than others. Your own situation is also different in that as a volunteer, if a paid FD took over the volunteer EMS in your area, you would not be out of a paid job and have to relocate or change careers. Do you honestly think those 50 year old Paramedics in Florida, Calfornia or Pennsylvania are looking forward to the Fire academy? Do you think they want to change careers totally?



That's a cop out to say that my situation is different. If you are making global statements about fire and EMS you can't qualify it by saying that oh.. your situation is different. Its precisely these types of differences that make your global statements of Fire and EMS incompatibility inaccurate. Changes happen in workplaces. Job conditions change. If I work for a private ambulance service and a big chain takes it over, my working conditions will change. This happens outside of EMS and it happens within it. There is obviously some reason why the government in your area sees an advantage to changing the way EMS is handled. Yes, when services are consolidated, people will lose their jobs. If you want to whine about it, you can get in line behind all the .com workers/consultants who lost their jobs in the 90's, the automotive workers who are losing their jobs now and the rest of America. If you are going to feed at the public trough, you better be prepared for the aftermath.




> Dual degrees? You mean like Paramedic and RRT or RN? they are both medical.


No, I mean like degrees in nursing and public administration or a degree in business or healthcare admin.. To say that a medical professional has to be strictly medical isn't accurate. Look at your department heads.. how many of them have non-medical degrees in combination with their healthcare licence or cert. You did not answer my question about the relevancy of paper pushing, budget, finance, personnel, to a medical degree. 



> So you too believe that the Paramedic is little more than a trained and skilled advanced first-aider who requires no education unless they want to push paper?



Don't believe I have ever said anything even remotely like that. I think that paramedicine is a highly skilled, highly technical field. I believe that the training that those who take it seriously get is an ongoing committment and not merely getting their ticket punched so they can sit on their *** as a firefighter for the next 30 years. Most of the paramedics I know are deeply committed to their work and the education that supports it. My disagreement with your posts is that you seem to assume that fire and ems are mutually exclusive. I do not. I belieive that its possible to have both. You for some reason do not. 



> That is exactly the point FDs have been making all along and why medical professionals are not in agreement with it. I suppose those on this forum that bothered to get an education along with the training and skills wasted their time if they want to be just a paramedic especially with the FDs.



If a particular FD is saying that their medics do not need to be skilled, that is an issue with that particular department and an issue as I have repeatedly stated of expected levels of performance not an issue of Fire vs EMS. If the level of skill and training is set at a high mark, the employees will meet that level. If the budgetary constraints of your area do not allow for maintaining two separate 24/7 emergency response systems, one for fire and a second for ems, then your area will either  have to reallocate funds or raise more money or accept that the elected officials have made a financial decision based on what they believe to be in the best interests of their constituents. 

To make sweeping statements about fire service is inaccurate. Even if other 'healthcare professionals' are willing to jump on the Hammer The Firefighters Bandwagon. Other systems have made it work, that means that your's can too. 




You yourself stated your job as Park Ranger and not EMT - medical professional.[/QUOTE]


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## daedalus (Dec 30, 2008)

I take issue with fire department paramedics. They make it impossible for me to find a well paying job after I finish school, and they bring standards down across the board. They take EMS away from those who would see it as a career in medicine and combine it under the name "emergency services". I do not believe you can be effective as both.


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## BossyCow (Dec 30, 2008)

daedalus said:


> I take issue with fire department paramedics. They make it impossible for me to find a well paying job after I finish school, and they bring standards down across the board. They take EMS away from those who would see it as a career in medicine and combine it under the name "emergency services". I do not believe you can be effective as both.



It is not the medics who make it impossible for you to find a well paying job.. it is the economic climate that does that.. the combination of services by a government entity is a decision being made by those who pay the salaries. Someone who is willing and able to do both well.. and they are out there merely raises the bar.


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## marineman (Dec 30, 2008)

This one calls for all of them


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## EMTFL (Dec 30, 2008)

akflightmedic said:


> So what do you want to do?
> 
> Rather, where do you want to live and work?
> 
> ...



I can't really say where I truly want to live, because I'm still not certain.  Part of me wants to stay in Florida, but part of me doesn't.  So it's either:  Florida, Colorado, or North Carolina.  One of those.  

NONE of those places gave me an interview.  I even called each place to check on the status of my application, and also went in to speak with someone in person. 

23 years old, FL EMT cert, national registry EMT, redcross lifeguard cert, and cpr/aed of course.  Worked as a lifeguard for nearly a year (not sure if that helps?).  no experience as an EMT yet obviously.

Thanks for your help man


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## daedalus (Dec 31, 2008)

Anyone here watch that new movie The Day the Earth Stood Still? With keanu reeves? 

"Change comes on the precipous of disaster"


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## VentMedic (Dec 31, 2008)

BossyCow said:


> No, I mean like degrees in nursing and public administration or a degree in business or healthcare admin.. To say that a medical professional has to be strictly medical isn't accurate. *Look at your department heads*.. how many of them have non-medical degrees in combination with their *healthcare licence or cert*. You did not answer my question about the relevancy of paper pushing, budget, finance, personnel, to a medical degree.


 
That depends on where you are looking. In the FD, no one that I can think of has higher than an Associates in EMS. The higher Education is in Business or Fire Science.

In the hospital, all licensed health care professionals will usually have a *degree* in their health care profession to even gain entry into their field. Most will have at least a Bachelors or Masters in their healthcare profession before gaining another similar degree in another discipline like business. A few "cert" healthcare providers like LVNs might still be around in some areas but generally not in acute medicine.

You emphasize training and skills. You also believe that all FDs are equal to the small FDs in your area. Again, FDs, even in Washington have undergone big changes. You town may be the exception due to its size. I am not talking about a little town FD with 20 - 30 FFs with a few paramedics. The FDs in the cities may have 2000 employees and over 1000 of those are Paramedics. These may be typical for several counties within a state.



> There is obviously some reason why the government in your area sees an advantage to changing the way EMS is handled.


 
Are you really living in such a perfect work or just so isolated that you actually believe the government will do "what is best"? Why do you think various organizations have lobbyists to get their special agendas passed? 



> You did not answer my question about the relevancy of paper pushing, budget, finance, personnel, to a medical degree.


 
In most professional healthcare degrees, a student is introduced to Healthcare finance and law 101. They are expected to know where the money comes from to stay a viable profession and how to reinvent itself when necessary. All of the allied health professions in a hospital act as many separate businesses. Our charting is directed at reimbursment. Everyone is also responsible for Qualty Control and Assurance to meet the many, many requirements of the various accrediting agencies. This is in addition to medical responsibilites. Even physicians must do a huge amount of paperwork besides their regular patient care duties. To be a medical professional, you must have a broad working knowledge of the business you are in. That comes with education.


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## Ridryder911 (Dec 31, 2008)

I propose this. To be able to enter the Fire Service, one should possess a degree in Fire Science, to be a Paramedic within the Fire Service also have a degree in EMS. For officer level; minimal a Baccalaureate in Fire Science and Chief a Masters in Business (municipal) Administration. 

Wonder why a degree is not   required in majority of Fire Services? It's not a true profession; rather a trade/vocation. Hence, the difference between medical profession and vocation(s). Until Fire requires such they are simply a trade (blue collar). There is nothing wrong with that; but let's not confuse and attempt to interact two different working requirements. 

Let's get EMS back into medicine. The main content and intent is medicine, not rescue, nor fire suppression, nor anything related to public service. In comparison all hospital personnel are trained in fire suppression (use of fire extinguisher) and rescue (removal of patients) would we consider them firefighters? 

The reason cities use Fire Service is simple. Not because its better, more progressive, faster. They assume it's cheaper. When in reality, if truly investigated it costs more. 

I am not against Fire Service and rally for them for their job. Fire suppression and rescue, prevention. Sure, medical first responder until EMS arrives or to assist. Again, one can only be proficient in so many things. You cannot assure me that one can be proficient in fire suppression, hazardous material, rescue techniques, and then *emergency medicine?* 

Again, lets follow other country example. EMS should be an individual agency. The response(s) are almost four times in number of fire suppression and as well can sustain itself financially or at least have lower budget. In comparison to fire services only financial grace is ISO ratings for insurance purposes. 

The more we push EMS as an individual provider the more we will see those that are truly interested in providing medical care. This will also allow fire services to focus upon their job as well. 

R/r911


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## akflightmedic (Dec 31, 2008)

When you force people to do many things in order to keep the ONE job they truly want, you end up with stuff like this.

Click link for full story:

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/12/29/EMT_scandal_embarrasses_Mass_town/UPI-98491230571266/


The allegations were focused on the majority of the town's police officers, who are suspected of falsifying records to obtain bonus pay for also serving as EMT workers.

or this:

Of course "fire officials" say training is adequate. How come we never see articles like this in regards to Fire Training??? Where is the department's focus, where is the money spent?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/12/30/MN4M14R20R.DTL

Medics inadequately trained

Emergency experts cite insufficient training as a key factor affecting the city's 911 medical services.

Training is crucial because paramedics need to master an array of life-saving skills and identify patients who require urgent hospital care, such as stroke and trauma victims. Medics also must operate complex medical equipment to ascertain the adequacy of breathing and speed or control a patient's heart rate.

But San Francisco's Fire Department "continues to struggle with adequate staffing" for training its medics, Dr. John Brown, medical director of the San Francisco Emergency Medical Services Agency, wrote in August to the Fire Department.

Brown cited staffing deficiencies in training, quality improvement and data management as potentially affecting patient care. In recent years, the department's medical training staff has been reduced.

Hsieh said training for the city's medics is particularly weak for those who administer drugs or use intubation techniques to create a rescue airway for breathing.

Intubations are among the most risky activities for paramedics. San Francisco paramedics encounter about 750 to 800 patients each year who require intubations. But many of the city's paramedics rarely perform intubations, and they receive limited training in intubations of live patients, as opposed to mannequins and cadavers.

"The department needs to have the training opportunities necessary to help maintain proficiency in the absence of experience," Hsieh said. "It isn't like riding a bicycle, and there's the potential of people to die."

Fire officials insist that their training of medics is adequate.

"Our new influx of employees is very well-trained," said Assistant Deputy Fire Chief Pete Howes. "In the fog of battle, they're working for the good of the patient."

But, he added, the training staff for medics will probably be reduced further due to budget cuts.


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## MattMedic (Jan 4, 2009)

"My goal is Firefighter Medic"

*This is an oxymoron, please don't ever associate us insignificant mortals with the gods of fire.*

In my opinion it comes down to one thing.  If you want to be a fireman who justifies taking taxpayer dollars by pretending to treat the sick and injured then be a "Firefighter Medic".  If you want to experience the true meaning of making a difference in people's lives, without the fanfare, recognition, groupies, etc., then be a paramedic for a for an agency that does strictly EMS.  There are services that do pay very well and have decent benefits.  I know fireman will argue that you can't beat their retirement and trust me when I say they are full of ****.  There are plenty of ways to invest your money (mutual funds, etc.) where you can have quite a sum when you retire.  The firefighting retirement fund is one of the biggest scams going.  Most of them are too stupid, or just too lazy, to question the damn thing.    

I'm not trying to downplay the importance, or the need for firefighters.  They are definitely needed, just not at their current numbers, responsibilities, pay scale, etc.  Let's face it, fighting fires is not a difficult job.  Go ahead, throw out this whole fire science and pump theory bullsh!t all you want!  It's not rocket science.  Ask a fireman why he does the job he does and the replies range from "the pay", "the women" or the "benefits."  Very few do it for the right reasons.  I chose this job to help people and I enjoy the challenge of medicine.  I don't do this job because it was the only way I could get on the department.  Unfortunately, it is people with this attitude that staff many ALS ambulances for fire departments.  These are people that have no desire doing 95% of what their job entails.  How fortunate are we to have them grace us with their presence!


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## Sparky79 (Jan 4, 2009)

MattMedic said:


> "My goal is Firefighter Medic"
> 
> *This is an oxymoron, please don't ever associate us insignificant mortals with the gods of fire.*
> 
> ...



This is quite possibly one of the most ignorant posts I have ever read!


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## reaper (Jan 4, 2009)

Sparky79 said:


> This is quite possibly one of the most ignorant posts I have ever read!



Guess you haven't read much on here. This is a general consensus!


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## EMTFL (Jan 4, 2009)

MattMedic said:


> "My goal is Firefighter Medic"
> 
> *This is an oxymoron, please don't ever associate us insignificant mortals with the gods of fire.*
> 
> Let's face it, fighting fires is not a difficult job.  Go ahead, throw out this whole fire science and pump theory bullsh!t all you want!  It's not rocket science.



I too consider your post to be quite ignorant.  As a matter of fact, I take quite offense to it.  There IS a science to fighting fire.  Sure, you put out the fire, but there are things to know that you CANT DO.  I lost two friends in a flashover because they weren't trained properly, so don't tell me its "simple bull:censored::censored::censored::censored:".


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## reaper (Jan 4, 2009)

FF is a dedicated job, that should be kept separate from EMS. It is not a simple job. You need a fire science degree to fully understand everything about it. A lot of people just believe that it should be a job on it's own and not paired up with EMS.


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## Sparky79 (Jan 4, 2009)

reaper said:


> FF is a dedicated job, that should be kept separate from EMS. It is not a simple job. You need a fire science degree to fully understand everything about it. A lot of people just believe that it should be a job on it's own and not paired up with EMS.



While I disagree, I can respect this opinion and can see that the current system is flawed and needs some reorganization and more education and commitment from all levels of providers. My initial response to MattMedic's post was in reference to the belittling and general lack of respect to the fire service. No, it isn't "rocket science", but it is a skill that if not properly performed will endanger people's lives. It isn't just as easy as putting the wet stuff on the hot stuff, as the joke goes. Every profession can be viewed as insignificant and "not rocket science" depending on the point of view. Just ask an ER doc or trauma surgeon what their opinion is of the rocket scientists (read as Paramedics) and you can see what I mean.


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## MattMedic (Jan 4, 2009)

There is a degree of training involved in fighting fires, just not the extent that it's made out to be.  I speaking from experience not out my ***.  When you compare fire science, pump theory, use of a ladder to medicine there is absolutely no comparison.  I've seen volunteer fire departments that are just as adequate in suppression techniques, overhaul and salvage as paid departments.  So why in the hell is EMS put on the back burner of most (not all) fire-based EMS agencies? If a fire department is going run EMS they need set their priorities.  Why am I sitting in a 6 hour class on pump theory for that 1 call out of a 100 I'm actually going to apply friction loss, psi, etc.  I'm glad your offended, I've been offended too by the non-sense that is fire-based EMS!


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## MattMedic (Jan 4, 2009)

EMTFL said:


> I too consider your post to be quite ignorant.  As a matter of fact, I take quite offense to it.  There IS a science to fighting fire.  Sure, you put out the fire, but there are things to know that you CANT DO.  I lost two friends in a flashover because they weren't trained properly, so don't tell me its "simple bull:censored::censored::censored::censored:".



I've seen several patients killed by improperly trained "firefighter medics."

Look, I'm sorry about your friends dying in a flashover.  If it was due to improper, or lack thereof, training then someone should be held accountable.  Do you know how many patients are suffering and dying due to lack of training by these so called firefighter medics.  Don't get me wrong there are some outstanding fireman who are paramedics, just few and far between.  I even know of a *few* EMS-based fire departments, but once again, they are very rare.


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## VentMedic (Jan 4, 2009)

EMTFL said:


> I too consider your post to be quite ignorant. As a matter of fact, I take quite offense to it. There IS a science to fighting fire. Sure, you put out the fire, but there are things to know that you CANT DO. I lost two friends in a flashover because they weren't trained properly, so don't tell me its "simple bull:censored::censored::censored::censored:".


 
How many are also trying to be Paramedics and neglecting their Fire Fighting training? Even those that brag they can do it all may be fooling themselves when put to task and someone's life is on the line including their own. 

Medicine is medicine and Fire is fire. For the sake of everyone's safety there should be those that specialize in one or the other at each scene. Those that have their mind and heart torn between two different professions can get people hurt or killed.


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## Ridryder911 (Jan 4, 2009)

I know Mattmedic and work with him. He has the experience of a Firefighter Paramedic, alike myself got tired of seeing propaganda being dished out. In my opinion, he is a fresh of breath air as he is truly dedicated to EMS and made the decision to leave a "popular" fire service after seeing the half truths. 

In my 31+ years I truthfully say I have seen only a hand full of Fire Services that actually make the determination of enforcing EMS to be medical. I am sure there maybe others but in proportion it would be few. 

I personally know of a Fire Department that is fighting against a private or third party EMS being placed into their town. The reason is simple.. money. They are in a large progressive area but refuse to advance to full ALS. They have developed a neat little system that requires on-call and have a set required overtime rate. This has increased their pay almost double. When evaluated it would be much more economical and provide better care to the area (which they only want to provide local only). Of course the Union is upset! How dare someone to think of patient care instead what is best for the firefighters! 

As one that actually has a degree in Fire Science, I can attest there is a science to it; but in the real world most of the fire departments and firefighters rarely learn or utilize such. Even most Officers only receive training and very few have formal education in their chosen profession. Alike what Matt said, it is an important profession but grossly exaggerated. Fortunately, the public is never aware when there is mistakes made and every time they still come out the heroes even though a careless venting or wrong tactic might have been instituted. 

I do ask again, what difference would there be if we would require a degree of Fire Protection prior to applying to a fire department? How many would still have the same interest, desire and I bet it would be amazing the number of applicants. As well, think of the type of fire suppression could be provided and the increase of prevention! 

Again, I and most of those that are in administration of Fire Services know the real reason of interest in EMS. It is not patient care, it is justification and continuation of funding to be able to keep FTE and appropriations. They see a "gold pot" and it has EMS on it. 


p.s. Welcome to the site Matt, glad to see you finally posted! 

R/r 911


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## medic417 (Jan 4, 2009)

Fire trys and forces people to be jacks of all trades.  Most fire I have seen choose to dumb down standards rather than encourage higher education.  I respect fire fighters as I was one.  I am as others mentioned tired of seeing fire use EMS to further its goals.  There are more EMS calls than fire so by that EMS should be the priority.  It is a medical field so should be specialized so the patients only get the best.


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## EMTFL (Jan 4, 2009)

So I guess what I have gotten out of this thread and my original question is that I should start with Fire Standards now that I have my EMT.


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## firecoins (Jan 4, 2009)

EMTFL said:


> So I guess what I have gotten out of this thread and my original question is that I should start with Fire Standards now that I have my EMT.



yes, do that.  Try and get your fire without the medic.  Why?  You can get the medic later if you can't get hired.


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## medic417 (Jan 4, 2009)

EMTFL said:


> So I guess what I have gotten out of this thread and my original question is that I should start with Fire Standards now that I have my EMT.




If you intend to be a fire fighter pursue fire degree.  If you intend to be a medical professional pursue Paramedic degree.


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