# EMT duo on break let pregnant mom die



## VentMedic

There's probably more to this story but a lesson can still be learned from it. When you are in uniform, either on or off duty, be careful what you say and do or how you say and do something. Those who like to wear some type of EMT patch or shirt 24/7 may fall under scrutiny some day and may not even be aware of it. You do get noticed regardless of all those who say the public doesn't know who you are. They know what EMT means even if they don't know every little skill you can do. 

*EMT duo on break let pregnant mom die*

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/..._mom_die_mrj8Jv8kjmS0Z3FNO4DmiL#ixzz0aH3OguQm


A pregnant Brooklyn woman suffering a fatal seizure in a coffee shop in the shadow of FDNY Headquarters was ignored by two callous city medics who continued to buy their breakfast, eyewitnesses told The Post. 
"The EMTs just said we had to call 911. They got their bagels and left," said a disgusted worker. 


Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/..._mom_die_mrj8Jv8kjmS0Z3FNO4DmiL#ixzz0aLBEsaQm


The comments below the article are also interesting.


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## VentMedic

Another article today:

*Brooklyn mother rips 'heartless' EMTs who are accused of refusing to help her dying daughter*
BY Simone Weichselbaum and Jonathan Lemire 
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS 
Monday, December 21st 2009, 4:00 AM

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local..._callous_emts_as_heartless.html#ixzz0aLDesFP0

Interesting quote:


> The two EMTs were placed on modified duty and are barred from providing patient care, FDNY officials said. Reports of their inaction infuriated Mayor Bloomberg.
> 
> "It was unconscionable," said Bloomberg. "But even if they weren't part of the Fire Department sworn to protect all of us, just normal human beings, drop your coffee and go help somebody if they're dying. Come on."


 
And more from the Mayor:

*Mayor Rips EMTs who refused to help dying pregnant mother*

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/mike_rips_emts_in_preg_mom_death_5d0UDQYANcSrLDN4ZnqitI


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## rhan101277

Well they will probably for sure be getting sued at least, maybe even charged.  As long as they are working and in uniform they have a duty to act.  Not acting is the same as abandonment i believe.


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## EMSLaw

Some of the comments seem to indicate these two were dispatchers.  I'm curious to hear the rest of the story.  There has to be more to it.


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## VentMedic

EMSLaw said:


> Some of the comments seem to indicate these two were dispatchers. I'm curious to hear the rest of the story. There has to be more to it.


 
If you are in the same room with a person having a seizure and you are on duty, do you need to be dispatched to walk across the room?

Of course, there are EMS situations where your station sits on the opposite side of the street from an emergency and you may not be able to cross the road to offer assistance.   This is also a big issue with some FDs.


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## EMSLaw

VentMedic said:


> If you are in the same room with a person having a seizure and you are on duty, do you need to be dispatched to walk across the room?
> 
> Of course, there are EMS situations where your station sits on the opposite side of the street from an emergency and you may not be able to cross the road to offer assistance.   This is also a big issue with some FDs.



I'm not familiar with the level of training that FDNY dispatchers have.  If they are trained to even the First Responder level, they should have helped.

But as I said, I'd rather hear the full story rather than rushing to judgment.


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## rhan101277

Even some layman went to help, it shouldn't matter the level of education.  The dispatchers were more qualified than Joe Bagel.


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## VentMedic

With the attitude they allegedly displayed in the coffee house, they probably would have given the same courtesy on the phone when dispatching.


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## 46Young

When my cousins were on with FDNY EMS, they were dispatchers for a time. All dispatchers were required to be either EMT's or medics at the time. I don't know what dispatchers are nowadays. On FH.com there was a discussion about the inadequacies of dispatching nowadays, and that there were civilians with no prior fire, police, or EMS training whatsoever. I'll find the thread later. If these dispatchers were merely civillians, they would have no medical training whatsoever. But anyone with a little common sense could give some type of aid to a seizing pt. If the dispatchers had any first aid/EMS training whatsoever, they should have the book thrown at them in court.

I know that here, in Fairfax County, the dispatchers only need to be EMD, with no training past a CPR card. It shows with their dispatching.


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## DV_EMT

ya know... I was watching "cops" the other day and he made a great point. He was saying (im paraphrasing)... "even when I'm off duty, I'm still a cop. When I'm eating out at a restaraunt with my family, i always sit facing the door because i want to see whats coming".

I think this should be applicable to all FD and EMS as well. Once your an EMT and "have training" that "could save" someone life... why not use it. I understand that a lot of EMS has the "off the clock, not my problem" mentality... or maybe the "i'm not getting sued today" mentality, But even with those in our minds, we have to understand that *hopefully* the government will CYA, and that witnesses will be there to back you up. It's a touchy subject, but in my opinion... all LEO,FD, and EMS are "on the clock 24/7" whether or not we are wearing our uniform.


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## VentMedic

DV_EMT said:


> all LEO,FD, and EMS are "on the clock 24/7" whether or not we are wearing our uniform.


 
Check with your company's policy for off duty. They may not take too kindly to you representing them off duty and then trying to collect insurance and Workmen's comp on their policies if you are injured.  However, for those in Public Safety such as FD, LE and some EMS agencies it may be different. Also a few states do recognize EMS for benefits in certain situations.  However, if you do something stupid, expect to left hanging.


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## 46Young

DV_EMT said:


> ya know... I was watching "cops" the other day and he made a great point. He was saying (im paraphrasing)... "even when I'm off duty, I'm still a cop. When I'm eating out at a restaraunt with my family, i always sit facing the door because i want to see whats coming".
> 
> I think this should be applicable to all FD and EMS as well. Once your an EMT and "have training" that "could save" someone life... why not use it. I understand that a lot of EMS has the "off the clock, not my problem" mentality... or maybe the "i'm not getting sued today" mentality, But even with those in our minds, we have to understand that *hopefully* the government will CYA, and that witnesses will be there to back you up. It's a touchy subject, but in my opinion... all LEO,FD, and EMS are "on the clock 24/7" whether or not we are wearing our uniform.



That's the problem, MAYBE you'll be protected if you help and something goes wrong that's out of your control, or someone's looking to make a fast buck off of you. Some states' Good Sam laws don't cover EMS/first responders who render aid while off duty. Not exactly a good incentive to help when I'm off the clock. There's a saying that no good deed goes unpunished. 

Me personally, when I'm off duty I don't wear anything identifying myself as a FD employee or any EMS affiliation. If someone is choking, goes unconscious, or drops dead in front of me, I'll help without hesitation. I won't identify myself as EMS however. If I'm asked for my demographics for any reason, I'll ask that I remain anonymous. If the EMS crew or PD insist, I'll then give my personal info.

If someone injured themselves, I'll be hesitant to help unless they're bleeding out or need spinal motion restriction. If they're bleeding I'll direct others to do bleeding control, as I don't carry gloves on me. I'll also hold C-spine, so I'm not asked to manipulate the pt in any way until EMS can take over. 

I also feel that I shouldn't be obligated to stop on a highway when I'm with my family to check things out. I'm not cool with leaving my family at risk of being railed by another car while parked as I'm assessing the situation. Even if I'm alone, there's no apparatus blocking the scene, and I don't carry road flares or a traffic vest, maybe just my bunkers in case I nab some OT during my break. Get injured off duty, even to help, affords you less protection (medical, financial) than if something were to happen on duty.

You can thank today's litigous society for my current viewpoints. I'm from NY where everyone is looking to make a fast buck off of you in court. Break ribs during a Heimlich or successful CPR and get sued. Do a rapid extrication for a justifiable reason (car on fire, bleeding out, etc.) and get sued for paralyzing the pt (even if the CNS was already compromised).

Anyway, field FDNY EMS don't get real meal breaks to my knowledge, only a "10-100" which is a 20 min break where they'll be "less recommended" but still available by radio and still have a duty to act, regardless.


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## Scott33

DV_EMT said:


> all LEO,FD, and EMS are "on the clock 24/7" whether or not we are wearing our uniform.



Not true.

Big difference between a moral, and a legal, duty of care.


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## nomofica

46Young said:


> Anyway, field FDNY EMS don't get real meal breaks to my knowledge, only a "10-100" which is a 20 min break where they'll be "less recommended" but still available by radio and still have a duty to act, regardless.




This is what my service has at the moment.


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## guardian528

EMSLaw said:


> I'm not familiar with the level of training that FDNY dispatchers have





> Witnesses have said the two EMTs -- trained medics working as dispatchers at FDNY headquarters at Metrotech --



this is from one of the articles, but i'm curious to find out what training they actually have, as here they used 'medic' and 'emt' interchangeably, and the media frequently uses blanket terms like 'medic' to describe anyone associated with ems. so i'm interested to see if they are actually emt's, medics, or just have emd or something


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## CAOX3

DV_EMT said:


> all LEO,FD, and EMS are "on the clock 24/7" whether or not we are wearing our uniform.



Says who?


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## DV_EMT

CAOX3 said:


> Says who?



says Me.... thats who!


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## 46Young

DV_EMT said:


> says Me.... thats who!



Damn, I've been in the game for 7+ years now. If I've been on the clock 24/7 for all that time, surely I'm due thousands upon thousands of dollars plus interest. If you're on call, which is when you're off duty but required to render aid if needed, surely there would be a small hourly stipend provided to compensate for that?

We all get plenty of action at work. Unless someone's likely to die, or freshly dead, my time off duty is for me to do as I choose, within the confines of the law. If that law actually does mandate me to help off duty, then my decision is already made for me. Many places don't. If I want to help for free, I'll volunteer.


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## CAOX3

DV_EMT said:


> says Me.... thats who!



That right there is some funny stuff.


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## DV_EMT

Look... here's my rational for everyone being on duty 24/7

1. EMS is Emergency Medical Services... I'm not talking put a band aid on a boo boo type stuff... but if someone is in a life threatening position, AND I have the necessary tools to help prevent a death... I'm gonna stop and help or get the necessary personnel there to help.

2. Legal Mumbo Jumbo - *IF* I decide to help someone, I know the following.... A. ) I am automatically emancipating myself from any agency or affiliation when I help the person. B. ) I understand the risks associated with helping this person (i.e. HIV, Oncoming Traffic, or a Potentially Violent PT). C. ) I know that The Good Samaritan Law will cover me for the treatment that I have or will render to the Pt.

3. I'd feel really guilty if I just stood there and did nothing while the Pt's condition declined to a state that... in turn... could cause death. I (personally) am a very moral and religious person and would feel awful if I left someone bleeding in a gutter to die when I could have helped.


... but that's just me. I don't know about the rest of the EMT's and Medic's here, but I wouldn't just sit and watch any Pt suffer or die because... it was my break... or i just didn't have time to stop because i'd be late for work.


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## CAOX3

Well here is my rationale, who is going to provide for my family if I get injured, infected or otherwise incapacitaded while out playing superman.


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## DV_EMT

CAOX3 said:


> Well here is my rationale, who is going to provide for my family if I get injured, infected or otherwise incapacitaded while out playing superman.



Who said anything about playing superman? Are you trying to say that your playing superman when you off the clock and helping someone from dying? last time I checked, that was called patient care... regardless if your on or off the clock. Playing superman is driving around with all your lights and sirens on your POV trying to interfere with all agencies that are already on scene. that's called playing superman... or ricky rescue.

If you don't want to risk it, that's fine, that's your own decision, you have a right to it.


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## CAOX3

DV_EMT said:


> If you don't want to risk it, that's fine, that's your own decision, you have a right to it.



Thank you.


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## Sasha

DV_EMT said:


> Who said anything about playing superman? Are you trying to say that your playing superman when you off the clock and helping someone from dying? last time I checked, that was called patient care... regardless if your on or off the clock. Playing superman is driving around with all your lights and sirens on your POV trying to interfere with all agencies that are already on scene. that's called playing superman... or ricky rescue.
> 
> If you don't want to risk it, that's fine, that's your own decision, you have a right to it.



You have to have a patient to deliver patient care. If I'm off the clock, I don't have any patients.


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## Scott33

Sasha said:


> You have to have a patient to deliver patient care. If I'm off the clock, I don't have any patients.



+ 1

Looking beyond the specifics of the story in this particular thread, there are many people who subscribe to the opinion that they are "always on the clock". Not only can it be unhealthy to have the inability to switch off from ones job, but there always seems to be an element of selectivity attached to those with the 24-7-365 mentality. Without trying to cause offense, in my experience it is usually the lower-end providers that have this opinion. You will usually find that those who feel the need to have their scanners on constantly, rarely feel the need to rush out for a "slip and fall, "finger lac", or "insomnia". Why not, if it is no less ones duty of care than the sexy jobs?

BTW, as far as EMS goes, whose medical license is the off-duty, or out of town have-a-go-hero working under? The Good Samaritan Law only provides so much protection, and in limited circumstances.

I think we all agree that if something were to happen in front of our eyes while off duty, we would intervene as we see necessary - even if only to call 911. As should always be the case, our safety should come first, and as already mentioned, most of us don't walk around with gloves which puts us with the rest of the public in certain emergency situations.

Stopping for an MVC on a highway in the dark / with adverse weather? Knock yourselves out!


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## 46Young

Scott33 said:


> + 1
> 
> Looking beyond the specifics of the story in this particular thread, there are many people who subscribe to the opinion that they are "always on the clock". Not only can it be unhealthy to have the inability to switch off from ones job, but there always seems to be an element of selectivity attached to those with the 24-7-365 mentality. Without trying to cause offense, it is usually the lower-end providers that have this opinion in my experience. You will also find those who feel the need to have their scanners on constantly, rarely feel the need to rush out for a "slip and fall, "finger lac", or "insomnia". Why not, if it is no less ones duty than the sexy jobs?
> 
> BTW, as far as EMS goes, who's medical license is the off-duty, or out of town have-a-go-hero working under? The Good Samaritan Law only provides so much protection, and in limited circumstances.
> 
> I think we all agree that if something were to happen in front of our eyes while off duty, we would intervene as we see necessary - even if only to call 911. As should always be the case, our safety should come first, and as already mentioned, most of us don't walk around with gloves which puts us with the rest of the public in certain emergency situations.
> 
> Stopping for an MVC on a highway in the dark / with adverse weather? Knock yourselves out!



It's common for the rookie to carry an aid bag and maybe some other gear and be on the lookout for anything, with much motivation and enthusiasm. When you get a little time on, many will find that they get enough stimulation at work, and won't be as apt to jump in wherever they can, unless it's life and death. It's unhealthy when you lack the ability to divorce yourself from your job when off duty, and/or if you lack any sense of identity and self worth without your job affiliation.


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## Scott33

Yeah, I don't see the problem in carrying a first aid kit in the car. In fact it is mandatory to do so in some European countries.

The more kit and lights one has in and on their POV however, the more BS they seem to attract (be that intentional or not). You can always tell the new grad doctors - they are the ones with the "MD" plates


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## DV_EMT

Scott33 said:


> Yeah, I don't see the problem in carrying a first aid kit in the car. In fact it is mandatory to do so in some European countries.
> 
> The more kit and lights one has in and on their POV however, the more BS they seem to attract (be that intentional or not). You can always tell the new grad doctors - they are the ones with the "MD" plates



agreed... Its good to have a bag with some things that you can render some first aid with. I have a total of 3 bags - 1 of which was issued by our county, and the other 2 are mine (one large one, and a shoulder pack that i use instead of a fanny pack). they come in handy


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## 46Young

I ditched the aid bag maybe 6 years ago. I was all gung ho at first but I got that out of my systyem pretty quick. It just took up space and collected dust. My wife said "would you get rid of that thing already? You'll never use it". I do carry a pocket face mask in my car and I've memorized the number for 911 so I can call if I see something that deserves attention. I also carry an OB kit around when my wife is pregnant along with an infant BVM, cause you just never know. I might need more than some shoelaces and a buck knife. That would be bada$$ if I delivered my own kid.


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## Piper76

There is a really interesting thread on Fark concerning this...

http://www.fark.com/cgi/comments.pl?IDLink=4875992

Disclaimer for the un-farker - Some content on Fark may be NSFW...

Slainte!


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## Scott33

A quote from one of the news stories:

_Jeff Samerson, a representative from the EMT and paramedics union said that the EMTs followed protocol.

"[Jackson] called 911. She didn't have an ambulance. She didn't have equipment. She does not work in the field as an active EMT in an ambulance," he said. "She is a dispatcher. She works as an emergency medical dispatcher. [Green] is also a dispatcher. These are people that are not in the field, that have not had patient contact in years. And they did the best they could._

http://ny1.com/1-all-boroughs-news-...ended-after-they-allegedly-ignore-dying-woman


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## ExpatMedic0

Wow what a mess! 

On one side, it turns out they are both dispatchers. They both had no equipment, ambulance or radio and told bystanders to call 911. This all checks out

On the other side, Witnesses claim they said " I am on break" (real bad choice of words) It was stated they are EMT certified as dispatchers. If they do keep there EMT cert up, there is continuing education for that every year regardless of how long they have been out of the field. They could have at least put something soft under the patients head and managed airway some by atleast placing the patient in the recovery posistion when she was done having the seizure or started CPR if she arrested in the coffee shop, especially for the unborn child. They could have also tried to gather a SAMPLE history and reassure bystanders.


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## Aidey

I wonder if their EMT certifications are being sponsored right now since they are working as dispatchers? 

There was also a line in one of the articles that said that the Ambulance crew that did respond did not have the proper equipment to revive her. I wonder what they didn't have. Were they a BLS crew, or an ALS crew that was missing equipment? 

It sounds like a royal cluster of a mess. I am on Fark quite a bit, and it is always interesting to see what the comments are because there is such a wide demographic of people who post. Just from the first 100 comments or so you can tell people have a lot of preconceived notions about pre-hospital care and Good Sam laws that aren't accurate at all.


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## paramedichopeful

This is an outrage. I agree with what someone else said that this qualifies as abandonment. I think it's ironic that FDNY EMS always says they don't get any respect but then they go and do stunts like this one. What is wrong with people? When I see something happen I at least try to help the person, even if it's just talking to them and calming them down while waiting for the Medics. Jeez, how lazy can you get. Those 2 should have their cert. jerked and be charged with involuntary manslaughter and abandonment. They need to make a example out of this before it happens again. How distasteful.


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## firecoins

paramedichopeful said:


> This is an outrage. I agree with what someone else said that this qualifies as abandonment. I think it's ironic that FDNY EMS always says they don't get any respect but then they go and do stunts like this one. What is wrong with people? When I see something happen I at least try to help the person, even if it's just talking to them and calming them down while waiting for the Medics. Jeez, how lazy can you get. Those 2 should have their cert. jerked and be charged with involuntary manslaughter and abandonment. They need to make a example out of this before it happens again. How distasteful.



whoa! slow down there buddy.  This was 2 people.  Not all of FDNY EMS.  You act like everyone did it.  You don't know all the facts. No one here does.  Let this go through the system.


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## CAOX3

paramedichopeful said:


> This is an outrage. I agree with what someone else said that this qualifies as abandonment. I think it's ironic that FDNY EMS always says they don't get any respect but then they go and do stunts like this one. What is wrong with people? When I see something happen I at least try to help the person, even if it's just talking to them and calming them down while waiting for the Medics. Jeez, how lazy can you get. *Those 2 should have their cert. jerked and be charged with involuntary manslaughter and abandonment.* They need to make a example out of this before it happens again. How distasteful.



Manslaughter........:unsure:


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## Lifeguards For Life

paramedichopeful said:


> \ involuntary manslaughter and *abandonment*.





> Abandonment is sometimes defined as the unilateral termination of the provider/patient relationship at a time when continuing care is still needed. It is a form of negligence that involves termination of care without the patient’s consent. To prove abandonment, a plaintiff must show that a patient needs care — that a medical provider has entered into a relationship to provide care to that patient, and then either stops providing care or transfers care to a person of lesser training when the patient needs the higher level of training.



If the provider/patient relationship is never established, can services be "terminated", if they never began?

When does your "patient" actually become _your patient_? Is it when they summon your aid, when you first make contact(visual contact or physical contact)? Is it when you begin your assessment, or when a treatment plan is initiated?

Two JEMs articles explaining what abandonment is and what it is not:
http://www.jems.com/news_and_articles/columns/Maggiore/Patient_Abandonment.html

Part II:
http://www.jems.com/news_and_articles/columns/Maggiore/Patient_Abandonment_Part_Two.html


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## zmedic

Some places argue that if you are representing yourself as an EMT, you have a duty to act. So if you walk up to a patient and say "I am an EMT," you have assumed patient care. My understanding is that in some places if you are non-verbally indicated that you are an EMT (via stickers on the car, being in uniform etc) it is the same as verbal telling the patient you are an EMT, and therefore have a duty to act.


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## Lifeguards For Life

zmedic said:


> My understanding is that in some places if you are non-verbally indicated that you are an EMT (via stickers on the car, being in uniform etc) it is the same as verbal telling the patient you are an EMT, and therefore have a duty to act.



A legal duty to act or a moral duty to act?

EMS LAW............ we need your assistance


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## zmedic

Not sure what the law says, but when I took my EMT they told us that if we were rocking around with EMT stickers or wearing a tee shirt with the big EMT on the back we'd better be ready to render care since we were announcing to the world our training.


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## Aidey

I wonder exactly what the patches on their uniforms were. Did they say "EMT" Or "EMT-Dispatcher". 

I also don't think they could be charged with manslaughter. I think the prosecutor would have to prove that the reason the lady died is because they didn't assist her, and I think that would be very hard for them to prove. 

I also am curious what the staff said to people. Did they say something general like "She is sick" or something specific like "She collapsed and won't wake up". 

Honestly, if I am off duty the only time I will offer assistance is if the person is in respiratory or cardiac arrest. If someone just said "the person is sick" I wouldn't offer assistance either. 

This situation really illustrates that is moral isn't always what is legally required to happen.


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## DV_EMT

zmedic said:


> Not sure what the law says, but when I took my EMT they told us that if we were rocking around with EMT stickers or wearing a tee shirt with the big EMT on the back we'd better be ready to render care since we were announcing to the world our training.



thats a +1


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## Aidey

I was told that if we displayed anything showing our certification status and someone asked us for help we were obligated to help. Fire/EMS stuff that didn't have your specific certification level on it didn't count. 

So a T-shirt with a plain star of life didn't count but a "New York EMT" t-shirt would.


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## firecoins

Aidey said:


> I was told that if we displayed anything showing our certification status and someone asked us for help we were obligated to help. Fire/EMS stuff that didn't have your specific certification level on it didn't count.
> 
> So a T-shirt with a plain star of life didn't count but a "New York EMT" t-shirt would.



many people walk around in clothing they should not be wearing.  FDNY and NYPD apparrel are pawned off like NY Knicks or Yankees jersey's.

Anyway these guys were in uniform not t-shirts.


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## Aprz

To be honest, I think people are just trying to make it sound like NY EMS is heartless. In two articles, it made them sound like paramedics when it turns out they are really dispatchers. In all three articles, it seems iffy to me whether it would be a situation that I would even take seriously. Hell, even the dispatched unit didn't think it was a serious call until they arrived.



> At 9:13 a.m., two other EMTs, William Martinez and Robert Suarez, were dispatched from Long Island College Hospital and arrived at 9:24 a.m. to what they believed was a noncritical call.


My friends and family know that I am going to be taking an EMT class in February, that I've already taken a First Responder course and certified AHA CPR, they'll go to me for all sorts of medical issue, ask me medical questions as if I was a doctor, I will brush them off telling them "I don't know. Go to a doctor" or something similar to that, and they'll say "What kind of EMT do you plan to be?", "Wow, you're gonna be an EMT and don't want to help me", or some other way to put me down. Sometimes when you do have an answer, they still don't like it. My dad had a seizure awhile ago so my mom asked me what to do during a seizure, and I told her to call 9-1-1, don't restrain them, if they are on hard surface: hold their arms, but allow movement still (just prevent them from hitting their elbows), and put your shoes/feet under their head (to prevent them from hitting their head). Be prepared to do rescue breathing after the seizure has stopped (not to bother when they are still seizing - even if turning cyanotic). She got mad at me because I didn't tell her how to treat during a seizure, and no matter how much times I tried to explain that there really isn't anything you can do (at my level of training), she kept saying the previous comments I said "You're heartless", "I can't believe you plan on being an EMT if you don't want to help people", etc....

I'd put my money on the bystanders being like my mom. I'd bet they even approached the dispatchers saying "There is a women who isn't feeling too well. Can you help her?" or something very ambiguous, vague, or doesn't sound so serious. They were probably even taught like me to do only up to the level of your training, and remember your duty to call.

I think the best thing that could've happened in this situation is if dispatchers made a brief distinction between dispatchers and EMTs, but stuck around before I was given the que to leave just to give all the bystanders and the patient some comfort/assist the EMTs with whatever, which I am not sure if the patient was SOB while the dispatchers were there, if she was even around them, or if she was seizing already. Maybe ask my supervisor for an extended break and tell them what happened. That's just me.

Personally I think they shouldn't be punished (even if immoral - I don't think anyone should be obligated to do something off duty), but on a technical level, think they are screwed since they were in uniform that hinted training (even if they don't have training).


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## firecoins

So we have to uniformed dispatchers who are certifed as EMT-Bs. But they do not work as EMT-Bs.  Walking off with breakfast probably wasn't the best move.  However what was is it they were to do?  No ambulance.  Mo equipment. If they stayed, we would be hearing how they did nothing.  They probably should have called 911 themselves.


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## kittaypie

with no equipment you can still open an airway, perform chest compressions, or even stand off to the side and dictate to others what to do.


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## 18G

These two EMT's/dispatchers displayed a total disregard for human life by walking away without offering even the slightest bit of assistance. Even if they weren't able to directly intervene without any equipment, they could have at least kept the airway open and advised the incoming Medic unit of conditions so the crew could start to get mentally prepared for a critical patient. 

It was very wrong no matter which way you look at it.


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## Shishkabob

If it truly was a seizure, and it lead to cardiac arrest, that means it was most likely status epilepticus, meaning there isn't a darn thing those dispatchers could have done without any drugs or equipment.


I love how people say maintain the airway... The problem isn't the airway, it's the breathing that ceases during a seizure.


They had no BVM.  They had no pocket mask.  I sure as hell wont hold them accountable for not giving mouth-to-mouth.


----------



## firecoins

kittaypie said:


> with no equipment you can still open an airway, perform chest compressions, or even stand off to the side and dictate to others what to do.



provided that she coded while they were there.


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## Buzz

> "I remember them saying they couldn't do anything because they were on their break," another worker said. "We started screaming and cursing at them."



That reaction really didn't help their plea for assistance.

If there's a group of people screaming and cursing at me and my partner, I would be seriously considering backing out of there. 

I keep reading multiple articles on this and everyone says something different happened, including what happened to the woman that died. It's easy to sit here and make judgments, but I don't see us knowing what actually transpired any time soon, if ever.


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## Aidey

I agree, the number of versions of this story is making it very difficult to understand what happened. There is also little reliable information on what was actually said by who and when. 

People have complained the 2 said they were on break. As we all know, everyone has selective memory. 

In reality a bystander could have heard them chatting in line talking about their break before the incident. 
After the incident it could be turned into the bystander hearing "I'm not helping, I'm on break". Especially after the story passes through a few people and a journalist. 

There is also the question of what did the staff actually say when they asked for help. As I mentioned earlier, there is a huge difference between "Someone is sick" and "she collapsed and we can't wake her up".


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## triemal04

Putting aside the various versions of what happened (this includes what was actually happening to the lady initially) and any moral/ethical/legal obligation to act, this is one of those situations in which you almost have to do something, even if you know it's only going to be for appearances sake.  Whether or not they were duty-bound to do something, they still had a uniform on that is widely recognized by the general public as being worn by someone with medical training (even if that isn't actually true).  Public perception is something that, often unfortunately, plays a part in what we do, and standing by will cause this type of reaction.  Some type of action would have helped, even if it was only walking over to the lady and calling 911 from right next to her.

The same thing happened in the UK awhile back; a paramedic was on his lunch break (during which they are NOT obligated in any way to respond) in his ambulance when someone walked up asking for help.  He refused and eventually the person died.  I don't know what the final outcome was for him, but it's a PR nightmare.


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## Scott33

triemal04 said:


> The same thing happened in the UK awhile back; a paramedic was on his lunch break (during which they are NOT obligated in any way to respond) in his ambulance when someone walked up asking for help.  He refused and eventually the person died.  I don't know what the final outcome was for him, but it's a PR nightmare.



If you mean this story, no one died, and the paramedic was let off (presumably for following company policy and procedure :wacko.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...used-help-man-broken-lunch-break-let-off.html 

I agree with the rest of your post - the uniform is a BS magnet, but sometimes that BS turns out to be genuine. I am another one who rarely wears uniform off-duty.


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## Scott33

The saga continues...


http://www.ems1.com/ems-management/...s-say-they-werent-asked-to-examine-ill-woman/


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## FDNYChick

as a member of the FDNY we have been getting bashed by the public for this and the story we are getting is that the two were dispatchers on a break and one called 911 then the ambualnce who showed up didnt have an equipment with them.

now they should have stayed and they could have done compressions.the stupid part is that they could have easily just called upstairs to the disptachers office told them whats going on and someone could have ran downstairs with equipment and they would have gotten als,bls fire pd and a conditions boss to the scene much faster and that girl would be alive

now no one really knows what was said to the dispatchers.if the public said hey theres a sick lady in the back then the answer "call 911" is appropriate but they should have atleast gone to see what the problem is.

i love wearing my job sweatshirt outside.its warm and im proud of what i do for a living.even when im not in uniform if i see someone who is in distress i stop and help because thats what im trained to do and if there is nothing i can do best belive i can get an ambulance there faster than a layperson.


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## Achromatic

Aprz said:


> My friends and family know that I am going to be taking an EMT class in February, that I've already taken a First Responder course and certified AHA CPR, they'll go to me for all sorts of medical issue, ask me medical questions as if I was a doctor, I will brush them off telling them "I don't know. Go to a doctor" or something similar to that, and they'll say "What kind of EMT do you plan to be?", "Wow, you're gonna be an EMT and don't want to help me", or some other way to put me down. Sometimes when you do have an answer, they still don't like it. My dad had a seizure awhile ago so my mom asked me what to do during a seizure, and I told her to call 9-1-1, don't restrain them, if they are on hard surface: hold their arms, but allow movement still (just prevent them from hitting their elbows), and put your shoes/feet under their head (to prevent them from hitting their head). Be prepared to do rescue breathing after the seizure has stopped (not to bother when they are still seizing - even if turning cyanotic). She got mad at me because I didn't tell her how to treat during a seizure, and no matter how much times I tried to explain that there really isn't anything you can do (at my level of training), she kept saying the previous comments I said "You're heartless", "I can't believe you plan on being an EMT if you don't want to help people", etc....



Sucks to do the right thing - maybe you need to educate your friends more, or choose 'better' ones than ones looking for some "way to put you down"...


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## Trauma's Mistress

Yea   People  sometimes just dont  understand  things that we do.  

  To the   first story.  I read that they were two dispatchers  but  even if they were EMTs  and they were "off duty"  Ive been taught that you have no legal obligation to help them.   Note I said  legal.  Now      one  person said it well about the  cop -  who is  always on duty .  I   am the exact same way . i dont care if its  2am and im in my pj's tank top and sweats  ,and a neighbor asks for help, I am going.,  No bra and all haha  

 i personally think that if you have  the  correct  up to date knowledge of  the correct things to do you should do it. period.   
  I once  was jogging  and  not to share too much info, but i was in a tank top and a bra, and no ladies, it wasnt  a sports bra- that would have been better than the one I was wearing I assure you LOL  Anyways  I come across someone who was  just hit by a car and bleeding bad.  So  i  instinctively  take off my  shirt  to apply pressure. The medics show up and I am  being as professional as I can be with  the girl  in a bra and  shorts explaining what happened.   haha 
 My point is,  I think no matter what - if you can help and  not cause more harm than good, then you should , but thats  just my own personal opinion.


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## ffemt8978

Scott33 said:


> The saga continues...
> 
> 
> http://www.ems1.com/ems-management/...s-say-they-werent-asked-to-examine-ill-woman/



According to the last paragraph of the article


> Medical Examiner's Office spokeswoman Ellen Borakove said Rennix's body would be exhumed and an autopsy performed. The results will be released to authorities investigating the case.



Why wasn't an autopsy done in the first place?:blink:


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## firecoins

ffemt8978 said:


> According to the last paragraph of the article
> 
> 
> Why wasn't an autopsy done in the first place?:blink:



NYC examiner may require family approval.  the deceased was not murdered or in an accident.


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## Scott33

Buzz said:


> That reaction really didn't help their plea for assistance.
> 
> If there's a group of people screaming and cursing at me and my partner, I would be seriously considering backing out of there.



I think this is a valid point.

None of us were there, but it *could* have been a case of the 2 dispatchers finding themselves in a dangerous predicament - one which was gathering momentum by the minute. I am not condoning their actions (whatever they were), but threatening behavior is one of the first things I though of. 

It all goes back to the public's expectations of anyone in uniform, and reason enough to go "Clark Kent" when off the clock.


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## Aidey

I don't understand why they didn't do an autopsy or at least wait to bury her. While tons of articles were going on about how they "let" her die they were also saying that the burial was scheduled in a few days, and the family had declined an autopsy. Doesn't make any sense to me frankly. 

It also sounds like the staff may not have relayed the seriousness of the situation either. As I said before, there is a huge difference between "She is sick" and "She collapsed and we can't wake her up". 

A lot of people commenting on the articles keep stating how they could have done CPR, or maintained her airway. It doesn't even sound like they knew those things may have been needed.


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## Angel

*coincidence*



Trauma's Mistress said:


> I once  was jogging  and  not to share too much info, but i was in a tank top and a bra, and no ladies, it wasnt  a sports bra- that would have been better than the one I was wearing I assure you LOL  Anyways  I come across someone who was  just hit by a car and bleeding bad.  So  i  instinctively  take off my  shirt  to apply pressure. The medics show up and I am  being as professional as I can be with  the girl  in a bra and  shorts explaining what happened.   haha
> My point is,  I think no matter what - if you can help and  not cause more harm than good, then you should , but thats  just my own personal opinion.



OT: that reminds me of this


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## Trauma's Mistress

Yes  I know.  I  saw the episode  too.  Its why I pointed out  that mine wasnt a sports bra,   At least hers on the show, it was a little more modest on the show trauma. 

  While im on the subject.   I  actually like the show. I know they do a lot of things wrong on there, but   I think trying to  bring to light  about what we do - the  premise of it, not  really the literal  number of  compressions, the  right shocking rhythm  etc,. i think  its a pretty good show.


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## downunderwunda

FDNYChick said:


> now they should have stayed and they could have done compressions.the stupid part is that they could have easily just called upstairs to the disptachers office told them whats going on and someone could have ran downstairs with equipment and they would have gotten als,bls fire pd and a conditions boss *to the scene much faster and that girl would be alive*



Thats a big call. How can you be certain of that?

If they acted as you say, she may have had a better chance, but you can never say with certainty, except in the classromm, that she would be alive.


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## Trayos

Aidey said:


> I don't understand why they didn't do an autopsy or at least wait to bury her. While tons of articles were going on about how they "let" her die they were also saying that the burial was scheduled in a few days, and the family had declined an autopsy. Doesn't make any sense to me frankly.
> 
> It also sounds like the staff may not have relayed the seriousness of the situation either. As I said before, there is a huge difference between "She is sick" and "She collapsed and we can't wake her up".
> 
> A lot of people commenting on the articles keep stating how they could have done CPR, or maintained her airway. It doesn't even sound like they knew those things may have been needed.



At the risk of sounding heartless, could the woman have had a history of seizures? With all this PR, the family may feel that exhuming the body and/or finding information in files that suggested that this was not a totally unexpected occurrence might be the wrong move. Speculation, but perhaps she did not wish to take medication because of the risks it might pose to her child?


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## Jon

I really think there is more to this story - I can't wait to see what the investigation finds.


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## masquedxangel

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,582557,00.html

The newest update is that the woman died due to an asthma attack.


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## Angel

There's so many versions to this story, difficulty breathing or a seizure? Diction is very important in this case...We'll see.


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## dmc2007

The pair are back on modified duty and have gone public with their version of events:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/21/nyregion/21emt.html?ref=nyregion


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## NC_EMT

I would think there would be a negligence suit in place.  They had a formal duty to act and should have done everything in their power to help the pt.  Even if they did not have the proper equipment to administer aid, they could have assessed the pt and at least been a bit helpful if at all possible.  If I'm in a position where someone is in a life threatening situation and I can help without endangering my own life, I will.  No questions asked.


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## Miscusi

This is old, but I remember this...

They had NO duty to act.

the duty to act is:  

In uniform, Check.
On Duty, Check.
Dispatched to emergency, no.

EMT's duty to act is to go aid the person they are dispatched to aid. that is their job, not to just help any ole joe smoe that wanders up to your bus.


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## usalsfyre

Miscusi said:


> This is old, but I remember this...
> 
> They had NO duty to act.
> 
> the duty to act is:
> 
> In uniform, Check.
> On Duty, Check.
> Dispatched to emergency, no.
> 
> EMT's duty to act is to go aid the person they are dispatched to aid. that is their job, not to just help any ole joe smoe that wanders up to your bus.



ACTUALLY.....

The interpretation of most states is that if an emergency presents to you your obligated to assist...

Legal duty to act and good judgement occasionally differ as well. Handholding and a 911 call would have gone a ling way here.


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## Veneficus

usalsfyre said:


> ACTUALLY.....
> 
> The interpretation of most states is that if an emergency presents to you your obligated to assist...
> 
> Legal duty to act and good judgement occasionally differ as well. Handholding and a 911 call would have gone a ling way here.



Along these lines, I have even seen it written into employment contracts that if you are a emergency responder in the municipality, on or off duty, you are expected to render aid.

(what render aid meant was not stipulated)

There is also a difference between what your agency may expect of you and what your boss does.

(In this case the bosses were the citizens paying the salary)

Agency reputation is an everyday battle.


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## dmc2007

Miscusi said:


> EMT's duty to act is to go aid the person they are dispatched to aid. that is their job, not to just help any ole joe smoe that wanders up to your bus.



If and when you get out on the road, ignore the first person that comes up to you looking for aid.  See how that works out for you.


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## Aidey

What was the point of bumping a 2 year old thread?


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## DrParasite

Miscusi said:


> This is old, but I remember this...
> 
> They had NO duty to act.
> 
> the duty to act is:
> 
> In uniform, Check.
> On Duty, Check.
> Dispatched to emergency, no.
> 
> EMT's duty to act is to go aid the person they are dispatched to aid. that is their job, not to just help any ole joe smoe that wanders up to your bus.


Actually, they were off duty, on a lunch break (technically anyway).

There are also conflicting eye witness reports for what they did and did not do, and what they did and did not say.  Even the witnesses couldn't agree on if she had asthma or a seizure, or if it was abdominal pain.  And FDNY never bothered to issue a statement about what these two did, all they said was they were investigating.

It was a PR nightmare.  and the idiot mayor spoke in an official capacity, and instead of waiting until the investigation was completed, he jumped on the bandwagon, and threw 2 of his employees under the bus.  And the two accused couldn't even respond and defend themselves, because the investigation was still pending, while the family was running their mouth about an incident that may or may not have happened as they are saying.

Here are the facts: they were EMTs, but assigned to dispatch, and haven't been on an ambulance in years.  They have 0 equipment with them, and without equipment, could not properly treat the patient.  When asked, they notified dispatch, and requested an ambulance.  None of this information was disputed by anyone.  

These two were convicted in the eyes of the family, the media, and the public.    And since the media saw a great hook ("two uniformed civil servants stand by while a pregnant lady died" how can it not sell papers???), and the witnesses were outraged that she died, it spread like wildfire, where even the idiot mayor drank the coolaid and was ready to hang these two.

The two accused are back on the job.  I bet they won't be reimbursed for their attorney fees, and won't get the money back that they lost when they were suspended without pay.  The mayor won't give a public statement that he was wrong, nor will the FDNY make a public statement that these two did nothing wrong.

It was a tragedy that she died.  The fact that she was a high risk pregnancy (due to the asthma), and she was overweight if I remember correctly lead to her death.  The family is looking for someone to blame, but the reality is, she probably would still be dead had the two EMTs held her hand until the ambulance arrived.  But that doesn't sell papers, so you probably won't see that headline anytime soon.


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## Scott33

DrParasite said:


> The two accused are back on the job.



Errrr...one of them may be, but the other certainly isn't.


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## usalsfyre

DrParasite said:


> but the reality is, she probably would still be dead had the two EMTs held her hand until the ambulance arrived


Very true. But would you have had nearly as much of a PR nightmare? Sometimes perception is reality.


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## DrParasite

Scott33 said:


> Errrr...one of them may be, but the other certainly isn't.


yes, well, he isn't back on the job.... but getting shot while not at work had nothing to do with this situation at hand.  that was just bad luck.  but if he wasn't killed, he would have been reinstated.


usalsfyre said:


> Very true. But would you have had nearly as much of a PR nightmare? Sometimes perception is reality.


Perception isn't reality; it can, however, be more important than reality.  new headline: "EMTs hold pregnant mother's hand while she slowly and painfully dies; mother of deceased call EMTs heartless for standing around for the show but not helping daughter in need."  

Want some more PR problems?  your mechanic is driving an OOS ambulance to the dealer in another area.  he witnesses an MVA, but since he isn't an EMT, he calls 911 and keeps driving.  was he wrong?  and if he had stopped, and there was a dying baby, which he couldn't treat or transport, how bad would the PR be?  What's the perception, and how does it compare to reality.

How about this: you just finished a 12/24 hour shift, and decide to go to walmart.  since you just got off from work, you are still in uniform (shirt, pants, jobshirt/jacket), so you walk in to buy your widget.  you get it, and as you paying, you hear that at the auto repair section of the store, a tire fell off a lift and knocked a mechanic unconscious.  do you go render aid?  and what exactly will you be doing, other than handholding?  what if the store manager says "don't worry, we have already called 911, and have the situation under control."  then what?  do you leave?  do you stay?  and if you follow the manager's directions and leave, when you get vilified for being a heartless provider, esp since your actions lead to the poor man dying according to the public, how do you respond?  

And your agency won't back you, all they will tell everyone is that they are investigating, and the mayor wants you fired.  Despite you not knocking the guy out, or causing the injury, or being able to do anything to help since you have no equipment, you are apparently the cause of his death.  again, perceptions vs reality.

Perception happens to be more important, but reality and the facts are what you can control, as that was what really happened. and having a good PIO can help mitigate some of these problems, or you can do the right thing and still be the reincarnation of the devil himself.


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## Veneficus

*Wooden ships and iron men*

One of the first things my original EMT instructor ever told the class, when discussing ethics on the first day, 

"If you ever wonder if you are doing the right thing or not, always ask yourself; how will this look on the 6pm news?"

Probably the most useful thing I learned in EMT class. It is still applicable today.


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## akflightmedic

I just wanted to weigh in and state that I have absolutely nothing useful, new or interesting to contribute to this conversation that I did not say 2 years ago.

As you were...


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## WuLabsWuTecH

With as litigious of a society as we live in, I can't actually go out there and say that I fault them for not acting if they were in fact off duty.  The way we get around this PR problem?  Our squad carries insurance that covers us while we are on duty, but also anytime we are off duty and in the district, or going to or from being on duty.  You have no duty to act while you are off duty, but if you choose to do so, yo are covered under the squad's policy.  Ditto for going to or from a shift (which outside of going to or from shift we're not really supposed to be in uniform anyway unless its for some event) so we're basically covered anytime we're uniformed.


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## Veneficus

akflightmedic said:


> I just wanted to weigh in and state that I have absolutely nothing useful, new or interesting to contribute to this conversation that I did not say 2 years ago.
> 
> As you were...



All of our conversations seem to be repeats, somebody was just smart enough to not retype an OP


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## medic417

akflightmedic said:


> I just wanted to weigh in and state that I have absolutely nothing useful, new or interesting to contribute to this conversation that I did not say 2 years ago.
> 
> As you were...



I'll second that.


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## Tigger

Miscusi said:


> This is old, but I remember this...
> 
> They had NO duty to act.
> 
> the duty to act is:
> 
> In uniform, Check.
> On Duty, Check.
> Dispatched to emergency, no.
> 
> EMT's duty to act is to go aid the person they are dispatched to aid. that is their job, not to just help any ole joe smoe that wanders up to your bus.


I think you need to review what duty to act means. What saves this pair is that they were not on duty, as DrParasite has noted. If you're in an ambulance and you witness the above, you are likely obligated to act.


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## zmedic

Tigger said:


> I think you need to review what duty to act means. What saves this pair is that they were not on duty, as DrParasite has noted. If you're in an ambulance and you witness the above, you are likely obligated to act.



I think if if you are walking around in uniform you should act like you are on duty. Ie not drinking in uniform, helping if you see someone sick etc. If you don't feel good about that then switch shirts before going into wallmart. 

If those two from FDNY had sat there and held the patient's hand until the ambulance came they would have been called heros. It doesn't really matter if they were technically right, that they weren't on duty. Even if you are within in the letter of the rules if you do something that embarrasses the department you should expect to be in trouble.


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## Medico

DV_EMT said:


> ya know... I was watching "cops" the other day and he made a great point. He was saying (im paraphrasing)... "even when I'm off duty, I'm still a cop. When I'm eating out at a restaraunt with my family, i always sit facing the door because i want to see whats coming".
> 
> I think this should be applicable to all FD and EMS as well. Once your an EMT and "have training" that "could save" someone life... why not use it. I understand that a lot of EMS has the "off the clock, not my problem" mentality... or maybe the "i'm not getting sued today" mentality, But even with those in our minds, we have to understand that *hopefully* the government will CYA, and that witnesses will be there to back you up. It's a touchy subject, but in my opinion... all LEO,FD, and EMS are "on the clock 24/7" whether or not we are wearing our uniform.



If I'm off duty not in uniform I'm not helping. I'm not going to risk being sued because I "hope" the government is watching. The government likes to make examples and I won't be one. I work to hard for my house, vehicle, and education to lose it. There is a on duty medic who would love the call.


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## Tigger

zmedic said:


> I think if if you are walking around in uniform you should act like you are on duty. Ie not drinking in uniform, helping if you see someone sick etc. If you don't feel good about that then switch shirts before going into wallmart.
> 
> If those two from FDNY had sat there and held the patient's hand until the ambulance came they would have been called heros. It doesn't really matter if they were technically right, that they weren't on duty. Even if you are within in the letter of the rules if you do something that embarrasses the department you should expect to be in trouble.



I was merely pointing out that one poster had posted something that was not correct. Those three bullet points he wrote do not constitute duty to act. 

Legally, being that they were not on duty, this pair was not obligated to act, correct? If they were don't you suppose that the investigation might have turned out differently? How can one get in trouble with the department if they don't violate any of the department's rules? If FDNY wanted to prevent this situation they very could have had their department policy stating that uniformed members are obligated to act regardless if they are on or off duty. I know of places that do in fact have this policy.

As I am sure you well know legally sound =/= morally sound.


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## DrParasite

zmedic said:


> I think if if you are walking around in uniform you should act like you are on duty. Ie not drinking in uniform, helping if you see someone sick etc. If you don't feel good about that then switch shirts before going into wallmart.


If I am on a break, and technically off duty, and I leave my dispatch center, I will either carry a portable with me (agency spare given out for just this reason), or go incognito (with my jacket that has NO identifying marks).

I have gone to the corner market near my home wearing my agency jacket, or my FD job shirt.  Off duty, usually to get milk or a quick bite to eat.  It happened to be in the back of my car, and it was cold out.  


zmedic said:


> If those two from FDNY had sat there and held the patient's hand until the ambulance came they would have been called heros.


maybe.  or, as I said before, they would have been vilified by the family, the public, and the media for having two highly trained medical professionals who literally stood by and did NOTHING, while a pregnant lady died; all they did was hold her hand as she died without them doing something.  You think this will be a good headline to sell papers:  "two FDNY EMTs do nothing as pregnant mother dies right in front of them"?


zmedic said:


> It doesn't really matter if they were technically right, that they weren't on duty. Even if you are within in the letter of the rules if you do something that embarrasses the department you should expect to be in trouble.


I'm sorry, but you can't punish someone for being right, even if it is just due to a technicality.  

They embarrassed the department, yes, but they broke no rules, and their embarrassment might not even be accurate; it's all based on conflicting stories, hearsay on what happened, and everyone jumping on the bandwagon and feeding off the emotional outrage of what might not have happened as reported by the NY daily rags. 

She's back on the job; I think it's far to say they found her not guilty of doing anything wrong.  Imagine that, after an investigation as conducted, and the facts were reviewed, the person was given her job back.  

Shame the media didn't wait until the investigation was completed before publicly finding these two guilty of misconduct and letting this girl die.  but of course, that wouldn't sell as many papers as the headline "EMT duo on break let pregnant mom die" and that is the goal of the daily rags, to sell as many papers as possible, regardless of if the facts are accurate


----------

