# In NJ: taking supplies from receiving hospital?



## S115 (Jun 15, 2011)

_Somewhere _I read _something _about NJ volunteer BLS squads having the right to re-stock ambulances from the receiving hospital.

Could anyone please help me find something to back that up? (ie is it true and is there a regulation somewhere?). 

Many thanks


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## firecoins (Jun 15, 2011)

never heard about that one and I worked in Jersey for 2 years.


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## firecoins (Jun 15, 2011)

why is the ER responsible for restocking the rig?


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## S115 (Jun 15, 2011)

Just askin'

I think part of the argument would be that the hospital is likely to bill for supplies found on the patient (an NBR, c-collar, dressings etc) - even if they were brought in to the ER with them already applied. So if the hospital is going to bill $10 for a 50c NBR, let the poor squad have one back.

Since NJ volunteer squad don't bill patients, there's no double billing going on for the same item.

But I'm looking for regulation/documentation to support this rumor.


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## Tac_medic (Jun 15, 2011)

I have Seen this before ive actually have done this. I was on a volunteer Squad in a Small town in Wisconsin, where we would restock Meds from the hospitals Pixies machine including NS .09%. Also we would restock our NRB mask advanced airways. This was because the hospital was our main hospital, our Medical Control was out of this hospital and we only ever transported patients to this hospital. The Squads have contracts with the hospitals and keep track of the supplies you use whether its through an Pixies( automatic med dispenser where thumb print is used to access) or a manual paper log and then the squad will generally pay the hospital depending on there agreements.


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## medicsb (Jun 15, 2011)

S115 said:


> _Somewhere _I read _something _about NJ volunteer BLS squads having the right to re-stock ambulances from the receiving hospital.
> 
> Could anyone please help me find something to back that up? (ie is it true and is there a regulation somewhere?).
> 
> Many thanks



No matter how entitled a volly thinks they are, especially in NJ, they do not have a "right" to restock their ambulance from a hospital.  There is no regulation that I know of stating that hospitals must be responsible for restocking any ambulances.   Certainly some hospitals may do this or some nurses may allow it, but it is either through a written agreement or lack of caring on behalf of the staff.


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## Too Old To Work (Jun 15, 2011)

Not NJ specific, but I've seen this before. I'd guess it's a voluntary agreement between the hospital and the squad. The hospital either writes it off as a donation to a non profit or just writes it off to good will.

About ten years ago there was a question before CMS (or whatever it was called back then) as to whether hospitals giving supplies to ambulances constituted a "kick back" under federal regulations. The answer was no, it was not.


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## S115 (Jun 15, 2011)

medicsb - thanks for that

I was sent an email with the tip that it was a quote from a NJSFAC source - I'll try to track it down.


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## S115 (Jun 15, 2011)

toooldtowork - and I actually found a reference to something like that  (in Kentucky) http://hultgren.org/news/02-2/02-0080.html

and some more more legalistic stuff http://www.pwwemslaw.com/content.aspx?id=76

and http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=7&sqi=2&ved=0CFcQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Foig.hhs.gov%2Ffraud%2Fdocs%2Fadvisoryopinions%2F2000%2Fao00_9.pdf&ei=gCj5Te7bNMjg0QH59dzIAg&usg=AFQjCNGsBEKHrewKBMGB1BznJkgQ4kNTgw

Once you start looking, it seems a fairly common thing.


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## S115 (Jun 15, 2011)

Here we are:  http://www.theridgewoodblog.net/2008/01/proposed-ambulance-billing-nj-state.html

In an item about the cons of moving to billing (in NJ).


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## njemtbvol (Jun 19, 2011)

*Yes*

We don't restock the rig, Backboards cravats, NRBs ect. but we do take sheets and blankets and towels and such. 
We leave them there, so we need to take them back. 
All boards and non throwaway items we leave at the Hostpital they leave in a room and we have our squad name on them and next time we are there we get it


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## frdude1000 (Jun 19, 2011)

In Montgomery County, MD, we restock all consumable supplies at the hospital.


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## Flight-LP (Jun 19, 2011)

S115 said:


> Here we are:  http://www.theridgewoodblog.net/2008/01/proposed-ambulance-billing-nj-state.html
> 
> In an item about the cons of moving to billing (in NJ).



That list epitomizes the basis of why NJ BLS volunteer services are one of the least respected entities when it comes to professional EMS.

The excuses listed are absolutely pathetic!


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## DrParasite (Jun 21, 2011)

Flight-LP said:


> That list epitomizes the basis of why NJ BLS volunteer services are one of the least respected entities when it comes to professional EMS.
> 
> The excuses listed are absolutely pathetic!


and that is why the New Jersey First Aid Council is not respected by any non-volunteer EMS provider, and by many volunteers who have been doing this for less than 15 years and realize that the FAC serves no useful purpose.

Please don't consider anything the NJ FAC says to represent any part of EMS in NJ; it is an archaic agency that needs to go, because it no longer serves a beneficial purpose to EMS in NJ


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## sirengirl (Jun 21, 2011)

My volunteer unit pays for all our own equipment. We might get some donated to us, but we have our own supply closet and we pay for everything with donations. Thankfully the town we're in is pretty good about giving to us, as a lot of the population uses the service. The only thing we take from hospitals is linens, and of course we give them back (nice and dirty and bloody ) to be laundered.


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## dstevens58 (Jun 21, 2011)

sirengirl said:


> The only thing we take from hospitals is linens, and of course we give them back (nice and dirty and bloody ) to be laundered.



Same here, beats doing laundry.....especially when dealing with biohazards.


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## pa132399 (Jun 25, 2011)

the services i've ran with in pa generally restock the supplies they used on the call such as iv caths, saline flushes, locks and extensions, and usually saline bags and et tubes. bls service usually replaces cannulas and non rebreather or bvms.


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## btkspot89 (Jun 26, 2011)

In the ER supply room at my local hospital there is a sign out sheet where volunteer agencies can sign out on certain supplies that may have been utilized on the call. BVM's NRB'S, NC's suction tubing etc. Just as long as you sign it out they are free to volunteer squads... Not sure they would like paid companies taking supplies though.


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## jjesusfreak01 (Jun 28, 2011)

Any squad should carry enough supplies on their ambulances that restocking does not become something you need to do at the hospital.


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## njemtbvol (Jun 28, 2011)

You're right, however if you apply that logic over and over..


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## Jon (Jul 5, 2011)

Some hospitals will restock 911 crews, some won't. And there's also the "Hey... can you help me out" to the Charge RN. I didn't have any flushes after a call yesterday - I could return to base and be out of service another 30 minutes, or ask very nicely and get a handful from the ER after dropping a patient off. We went back to our standby, no harm, no foul.


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