# "Military medics can't even get jobs as ambulance drivers"



## Aidey (May 29, 2011)

That quote is slightly paraphrased because the text article isn't online yet, but I'm watching something on CNN about the problems facing vets in the job market. 

One of the complaints is that military experience doesn't count towards civilian certifications. Patty Murray, chairman of the Senate Committee on Veterans Affaris commented that the military medics working 24/7 in a battlefield aren't eligible to become paramedics, and can't even become ambulance drivers without redoing all their training.* 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't all 68Ws required to have their NREMTB? Don't some 30 odd states take the NREMT for their EMT B certification? Aren't there bridge programs to paramedic for those who were a combat medic? 

I don't have a problem with trying to get vets into civilian jobs, but the whole bit seemed poorly researched which irked me. 


*No one mentioned the whole medical/trauma thing for the record.


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## TransportJockey (May 29, 2011)

Military medics have to be at least NREMT-B. Some do get their NREMT-P from what I've heard. So yea, in some states they need no additional training, just applying for reciprocity. States like mine, they'd have to take a transition course since we don't take NREMT at face value except for medic


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## Aidey (May 29, 2011)

That is what I thought. If anything it seems like EMS would be one of the easiest things for a vet to get into, especially considering the civil service points they get towards most fire jobs.


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## dstevens58 (May 29, 2011)

I recall being loosely affiliated through NREMT back in the mid-seventies, this allowed me to run with the local ambulance while home on leave.  I've since left the military, did a 20 year stint in law enforcement.  Since retiring, I moved back home and am taking EMT all over again.


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## HotelCo (May 29, 2011)

Why should there be bridge programs for combat medics to become paramedics?


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## firecoins (May 29, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> Why should there be bridge programs for combat medics to become paramedics?



well they do things that are out of the scope of civilians due to the nature of being in the military.  This means that they have advanced skills orientated towards trauma.  They need a bridge gap towards medical and scope of practise.  Of course, I might be missing something with reguards to the exact training in terms of medical.


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## HotelCo (May 29, 2011)

firecoins said:


> well they do things that are out of the scope of civilians due to the nature of being in the military.  This means that they have advanced skills orientated towards trauma.  They need a bridge gap towards medical and scope of practise.  Of course, I might be missing something with reguards to the exact training in terms of medical.



What kinds of things do they do, that are outside the scope of civilian EMS? Sutures?


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## firecoins (May 29, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> What kinds of things do they do, that are outside the scope of civilian EMS? Sutures?



It depends. The military has lots "medics" trained at different levels.  I am sure people who actually served can fill you in but many Medics/Corpman set broken bones, IOs, give morphine without having to call for it, advanced trauma management etc etc etc


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## HotelCo (May 29, 2011)

firecoins said:


> It depends. The military has lots "medics" trained at different levels.  I am sure people who actually served can fill you in but many Medics/Corpman set broken bones, IOs, give morphine without having to call for it, advanced trauma management etc etc etc



Aside from setting broken bones, and "advanced" trauma management, I can do those things. 

Any medics have any insight as to what you can do, that a civilian cannot?


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## Aidey (May 29, 2011)

10 seconds on the wikipedia article will answer your question. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/68W

The 68W designation has multiple sub designations, which do not have the same scope as a civilian paramedic.


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## HotelCo (May 29, 2011)

Aidey said:


> 10 seconds on the wikipedia article will answer your question. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/68W
> 
> The 68W designation has multiple sub designations, which do not have the same scope as a civilian paramedic.



I prefer to get my information from the source whenever possible, and since we're an EMS forum with member who were, or are, in the armed forces, I think it's possible to get it from the source.


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## HotelCo (May 29, 2011)

But yes, I did go over the 68W article, and I have a knowledge of the US Navy Corpsman's abilities.


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## johnrsemt (May 31, 2011)

68W can do Chest Tubes, needle decompressions, crichs (surgical, not needle)  and quite a bit else.  I know that decompressions, and crichs are in the EMT-P protocols in most areas.  but I also know that inserting chest tubes are not.

  18D (Special Forces Medics);  can do quite a lot more;  but I don't have an 18D handy to ask what else they can do.  Most though close surgeries after surgeon is done.    That program is 18 months long or more,  12 hour days, 5 days a week.  something like 200 hours in Surgery.      
   I think that 18D can test out NR-EMT-P after their class;  although I have heard that they get the Civilian Medic as part of their class.


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## DrParasite (May 31, 2011)

Aidey said:


> Patty Murray, chairman of the Senate Committee on Veterans Affaris commented that the military medics working 24/7 in a battlefield aren't eligible to become paramedics, and can't even become ambulance drivers without redoing all their training.*


yeah and?  a military medic's training and experience when dealing with medical emergencies in minimal.  the majority of the people they treat are healthy, 18-30 year old men is good shape.  trauma is completely different, they are definitely qualified to handle most traumatic injuries, but most civilian paramedics deal more with medical emergencies than major traumas.

Military medics also don't carry nearly as many medications as civilian medics.  pain medications, absolutely, but civilian medics have to deal with many many more drugs.

Lastly, military medics have one main goal: get the person to the field hospital alive, preferably in as comfortable/pain free as possible.  civilian medics have a slightly different job description, and are also worried about preventing themselves and their agencies from getting sued.

so yes, they need to be reeducated by the civilian rules about what they need to know here, and show that they do know the civilian job, since it is very different than that in the military.

this is the information I was given by my former partner, who served two tours as a navy corpsman with the marines.


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## usalsfyre (May 31, 2011)

Considering how low the entry standards are for EMS anyway, why are we clambering to make it easier for ANYONE to get in? Nothing against the military, but at some point we have to think about the push towards professional practice.


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## Aidey (Jun 1, 2011)

DrParasite said:


> yeah and?



Yeah and the news report was wrong. Since combat medics have their NREMT B they can get jobs as "ambulance drivers" in a large number of states. 

US - I'm not advocating changing standards, just pointing out an incorrect conclusion is leading someone else to want to change them.


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## usalsfyre (Jun 1, 2011)

I didn't really take it that way Aidey, but there's those out there who think this is a great idea. I personally just don't see it being a good thing.


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## Sandog (Jun 1, 2011)

Well, back in the day when I was in the Navy, Corpsmen could become specialized in a certain field, some were trained for combat, others more like nurses. In fact, when I was stationed on a USNS (Navy/civilian) ship our corpsman functioned like a doc would. When I felt sick, I would see the doc (Navy Chief Corpsman) and he did a pretty good job. I have met corpsman that could run circles around a few medics.

With that said; due to the fact that military medical operates in such a different scope of practice than their civilian counterparts, I do think a bridge program would be a good idea, and I also think their past training should exempt them from having to start all over again as I know a few who have had to do here in Ca.


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## SixEightWhiskey (Jun 1, 2011)

I'm a 68w currently deployed to Iraq. I can't speak for Corpsman, 18D's or Air Force IDMT's, but here's what light I can shed from the army side.

Our NREMT-B qualifies us to do civilian EMT work, as long as the state I'm practicing in has reciprocity with NR and allows me to be licensed in that state. However, army medics who are jumping into civilian EMS for the first time would probably benefit from an EMT-B refresher, as there are a lot of elements of being an EMT that are different from our overall army medic role, i.e. assessment algorithms, scope of practice, etc.

A medic fresh out of AIT (medic school) is qualified to do advanced trauma care, including but not limited to: tourniquet application/conversion, hemostatic dressings (Combat Gauze, QuikClot, etc), surgical cric, needle chest decompression, Combitube/King LT intubation, initiating IV's and IO's, use of traction splints for long bone fractures, and morphine administration. All of this can be done without calling first for permission from a provider. 

Beyond this, the PA/physician for your unit (its their license that you work under) can train and certify you in any medication/procedure up to their skill level, i.e. chest tubes, sutures, advanced intubation, etc, as well as prescription of advanced meds as well as narcotics. It's basically at the discretion of your provider, whether they feel comfortable enough with your proficiency to sign off on your ability to perform without supervision. The caveat to all this is that it can only be applied to military personnel, and most of the time only while deployed...in a garrison environment, our hands are tied for the most part, and we're normally instructed to call our post's EMS/fire-rescue for emergencies.

I don't have any experience yet in civilian EMS but I plan to, and I'm currently taking classes in order to obtain my EMT-P, hopefully before my active duty time is up. Hopefully this information clarifies the debate somewhat.


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## iftmedic (Jun 2, 2011)

Exactly! Well said,  I was in the Marine Corps,  now I have 12 years under my belt. Your absolutely right


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