# Jury reaches split verdict in Burks trial: Watch the dash cam video



## bstone

> Reggie Burks testified that his wife was driving him to the hospital after he was injured in a fall. Jacqueline Burks did not pull over for Troxel until reaching the hospital at which time a verbal confrontation ensued between Troxel and Jacqueline Burks.


http://www.petoskeynews.com/articles/2008/01/24/breaking_news/doc4798c7f3a0365148918596.txt

The first 2 minutes infuriated me. The officer clearly did not care that the woman was begging to have her husband allowed into the ER but rather cared more for the traffic violation. But then her husband cracked his cane over the officer's head. Wonder how injured he was.

Now the cane part was inexcusable and criminal. But the horrifying part was the officer not allowing the woman to bring in a person of unknown medical emergency into an ER.

Thoughts?

All of this over a turn signal. Ugg.


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## firetender

How often do you see a woman being pulled over for a traffic infraction and being approached by a cop with a gun drawn?

Maybe I ought to qualify. How often do you see a WHITE woman being pulled over for a traffic infraction by a cop with gun drawn?

Just curious.


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## JPINFV

I'm split. On one hand, I do agree with the officer that if it was "major" then they should have called an ambulance. Then again, I have to remember that my own father is too stubborn/stupid to call 911 himself (he waited out a hypertensive emergency [190/110 BP via machine with facial numbness] because he had an appointment with his PMD the next day. Prior to that, he waited out several episodes of difficulty breathing which prompted the PMD visit to begin with. Everything, thankfully, turned out fine for him. He's also had my mom drive him to the ER after deciding to cut his finger in half with a circular saw) when he should have.

At the same time, there have been cases (I, unfortunately, couldn't find the link) of people complaining of fake medical conditions in an attempt to get out of a traffic stop.

The fact that they were already at the hospital indicates that it wouldn't have been too hard to get him checked in and then write the tickets. None of this excuses the fact that the husband attacked the officer with a cane.


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## Flight-LP

The cop got what he deserved, if it had been me, I'd have beat his a@$ too. There was absolutely no reason why he could not have assisted the man into the ER or allowed the wife to get a wheelchair, then write his precious little citation. He was confrontational and failed to keep a simplistic situation under control. Poor judgement on his part and an embarassment to professional law enforcement, thats how I'd describe him.

I thought it was humerous how he started crying like a little b*#@h when he got hit though. It was actually kind of humerous, all over not using a turn signal....................


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## VentMedic

Tough call but this is one of the oldest tricks in the book in attempt to escape going to jail.   I see the "CP, HA, can't see, fall down, seizure flail etc"  almost every shift in the ED and  saw the same stuff frequently when I worked the ground ambulances.  It doesn't matter what race, sex, age or religion a person is, they can all try to pull off the same stuff when faced with the potential of an arrest. Sometimes it was just to avoid a traffic ticket. 

The instant a police officer stops being on his/her guard or suspicious, they become very dead very fast.

This officier probably should have had backup sooner.  The woman's behavior could have presented a danger for any hospital professional that didn't meet her demands for attention also.


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## bstone

Few months ago a close friend had chest pain, short of breath, etc. I said let's call an ambulance. She wouldn't hear of it. No way, no how, no matter how much begging. So I drove her in my POV. 

I believe that the officer was WAY out of line by preventing entry into the ER. His actions were possibly criminal, or at least should be. The actions of the man with the cane were terrible and demonstrate he wasn't that badly injured, but just imagine if he was sitting in the front seat with a bleeding aorta. The woman was certainly pleading with the officer and he just didn't seem to care.

All over a turn signal. Hmmmm.


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## certguy

*Felony stupidity*

Sometimes people get too stupid and stubborn for thier own good . I used to drive a commuter bus route roughly 50 miles one way from the Kern River Valley to Bakersfield CA through a windy , narrow canyon road . There are those who don't like our local hospital , don't want to drive the canyon , and don't want to pay an ambulance bill . What's the solution ? Take the transit bus !!!! I had to deal with several medical emergencies while driving that route . The worst were the probable MI that started at 10:30 the night before , ( I found out 12 hours later when another passenger noticed the guy clutching his chest , sweating buckets , and getting smurfy ) and a status epilepticus while I was driving an alternate route even longer and more isolated than our regular due to a rockslide . I counted 17 siezures in the 23 minutes it took first responders to get to us . Medics took another 6 - 7 min. Thank god I never had a code in the canyon , but I've come close . Times have really changed . First aid and CPR were a requirement when I started , now the company's position is that they don't want us to help past giving them first aid supplies and calling 911 . I've tried challenging thier policy , but I think it'll take a lawsuit ( that they think they're avoiding ) to change it . Nowadays I drive locally , but my position's the same . I won't let someone die for company policy .


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## bstone

Flight-LP said:


> The cop got what he deserved, if it had been me, I'd have beat his a@$ too. There was absolutely no reason why he could not have assisted the man into the ER or allowed the wife to get a wheelchair, then write his precious little citation. He was confrontational and failed to keep a simplistic situation under control. Poor judgement on his part and an embarassment to professional law enforcement, thats how I'd describe him.
> 
> I thought it was humerous how he started crying like a little b*#@h when he got hit though. It was actually kind of humerous, all over not using a turn signal....................



:lol: I like how you phrase things. :lol:

But it's absolutely true. The cop truly escalated the situation into a lot more than it actually was. Let them in the ER, write the citation and be on their way. Now there is a thread on some random EMS website, showing how complicated it's gotten.


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## SC Bird

firetender said:


> How often do you see a woman being pulled over for a traffic infraction and being approached by a cop with a gun drawn?
> 
> Maybe I ought to qualify. How often do you see a WHITE woman being pulled over for a traffic infraction by a cop with gun drawn?
> 
> Just curious.



Look at it from the cops P.O.V....vehicle that fails to yield to an officer, continues to drive for a good little ways, then the driver stops and immediately exits the vehicle....sorry but my gut reaction would have been to have my weapon drawn as well...or at least a hand on it.

You never know what the intentions of the party exiting the vehicle are.  Do notice that he did holster his weapon as soon as he realized she wasn't coming out swinging/shooting.

So I don't think that race was an issue in this.

Could the police officer have let the woman get a nurse or someone to take her husband into the ER then issue the citation, sure....did he, no.

The "patient" definetly should not have struck an officer....he's got a two year felony charge to think about it now...

-Matt


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## Flight-LP

SC Bird said:


> Look at it from the cops P.O.V....vehicle that fails to yield to an officer, continues to drive for a good little ways, then the driver stops and immediately exits the vehicle....sorry but my gut reaction would have been to have my weapon drawn as well...or at least a hand on it.
> 
> You never know what the intentions of the party exiting the vehicle are.  Do notice that he did holster his weapon as soon as he realized she wasn't coming out swinging/shooting.
> 
> So I don't think that race was an issue in this.
> 
> Could the police officer have let the woman get a nurse or someone to take her husband into the ER then issue the citation, sure....did he, no.
> 
> The "patient" definetly should not have struck an officer....he's got a two year felony charge to think about it now...
> 
> -Matt



"You need to stay right here" and then he placed his hands on the woman.  

WRONG ANSWER! He had no provocation and was attempting to muscle her, period. He should be charged with battery. Again, there was no need to stop her from helping her husband into the ER. Should he had a debilitating condition or would have fallen out while outside, it would have been the officers a$@. And you can't tell me that this officer would have done the same thing with a white woman getting out of a Lexus. As unfortunate as it is, race does have something to do with everything. Go back and review a few of our threads and it will show you clearer than day that we do take race into immediate consideration in our day to day activities. Regardless, the officers actions were wrong and he should be held accountable........


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## bstone

Flight-LP is ded on. This is a clear race issue, tho I was utterly infuriated just by seeing an officer of the law refuse a human being entry into an ER due to a traffic ticket for failure to use a turn signal.


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## ksffemt

I have to agree with SC Bird.

The officer does not know what is going on.  Let's go with what the officer knows.  He knows he spotted a vehicle commit a traffic infraction by not using a turn signal.  He knows this vehicle is failing to yield.  He knows that they are pulling into a very crowded place with lots of potential hostages and he knows that the driver gets out of the vehicle very fast.

What does the officer not know about.  He doesn't know the vehicles intentions.  He doesn't know why the vehicle failed to yield.  He doesn't know the drivers or passengers possible criminal record.  He doesn't know why the driver exited the vehicle so quickly upon finally yielding.  He doesn't know about the medical emergency.

The officer exits his vehicle with gun drawn for good reason.  He doesn't know what is going on but does know that this vehicle and driver have violated numerous traffic laws.  The officers main goal is to go at home at the end of his shift.

When the officer reaches the driver she starts yelling and trying to move away from him.  Why would someone do that?  Could it possibly be to run?  The officer then takes steps to keep the driver near the vehicle where they can talk.  The driver gets very agitated and keeps yelling.  The passenger, the one with the supposed injury, gets out of the vehicle he is given an order to stop where he is.  He disobeys that order and keeps approaching and then assaults the officer with the cane.  For his troubles he is taken to the ground and handcuffed.  The wife keeps trying to interfere and at one point is behind an officer touching his back.  That is a huge no no.  Are you going for his gun?  For her troubles and interference she gets handcuffed for the officers safety. 

The driver is required by law to yield to an emergency vehicle with lights and sirens activated.  That is end of story.  All the driver had to do was yield when first "lit up" and explain the situation to the officer.  She didn't do this instead she violated the law and kept driving.

Is this a sad story sure but not because of the officers actions but because of the actions of the driver.  All of this could have been avoided if she had complied with law, complied with the officers orders, and remained calm.


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## colafdp

ksffemt said:


> All of this could have been avoided if she had complied with law, complied with the officers orders, and remained calm.



you work in EMS. How many bystanders \ patient's relatives, actually stay calm? haha


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## ksffemt

I do work in EMS and I must say that 95% of my calls they are fairly calm.  The 5% where they are not calm when I get there 4.9% are calm with in a few minutes and don't hinder my ability to work.  If they don't calm down or hinder my ability to work PD is asked to interview them away from the patient.


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## VentMedic

I'm sure we would have been reading a different story if the lady and her husband made it inside the ED and did not get immediate satisfaction.  I'm sure those that are finding fault with the officer for taking an agressive approach would have been complaining of not being aggressive enough if an EMT, nurse, physcian or another patient was injured with that cane. 

In EMS if this was the scene, most of you would have been calling for LEOs to assist.

More police officiers are killed doing routine traffic stops than any other reason.   These are only some of the recent ones within the last year or two. If you google this topic you will get many pages.  I'm sure there are some here who will find fault with these officers and say they got what they deserved also. It's easy to talk about what they should have done after the fact including the officer that is the topic of this thread. 

 Police Officers Shot During Brooklyn Traffic Stop 
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/09/n...00ee11589d28d7&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

New York Officer Killed During Traffic Stop
http://www.officer.com/web/online/Officer-Down-News/New-York-Officer-Killed-During-Traffic-Stop/2$35692

Officer Shot During Traffic Stop
http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=triangle&id=5543765\

Florida Police Officer Killed During Traffic Stop
http://ballyblog.wordpress.com/2007/09/13/florida-police-officer-killed-during-traffic-stop/

Prescott Police Officer Shot During Traffic Stop 
http://prescottenews.com/news/police-reports/prescott-police-officer-shot-during-traffic-stop.html

Police officer get shot and dies in routine traffic stop 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz5--_qI_hU

UPD officer killed during traffic stop (Ole Miss Police Officer)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1723709/posts

Detroit officer shot during traffic stop
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071211/UPDATE/712110418

Fla. trooper fatally shot during traffic stop
http://www.policeone.com/officer-down/1203915/

N.H. officer fatally shot 4 times during traffic stop
http://www.policeone.com/officer-down/1244899/

Officer killed during a routine traffic stop 
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2003/06/14/export12663.txt

Slain officer could 'lighten up the day'  (another traffic stop)
http://www.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/0223gl-holly23Z18.html

State Police Corporal Killed During Traffic Stop
http://kdka.com/topstories/state.trooper.killed.2.380629.html

Utica Police Officer killed
http://www.nystpba.org/pages/public/showPubDocDetails.asp?news_id=2811

LAPD Officer Shot at During Traffic Stop 
http://www.lapdonline.org/february_2006/news_view/23369


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## bstone

No one says that police work isn't very dangeorus work. My hats off to those who can do the sort of work.

But when the officer was told in clear and unambiguous language that there was a medical emergency, why did he not drop the Mr Important act and assist in getting a human being to the care just feet away? It's maddening, truly.


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## VentMedic

bstone said:


> No one says that police work isn't very dangeorus work. My hats off to those who can do the sort of work.
> 
> But when the officer was told in clear and unambiguous language that there was a medical emergency, why did he not drop the Mr Important act and assist in getting a human being to the care just feet away? It's maddening, truly.



Do you believe everything you are told when under suspicious circumstances?  A hospital ED driveway could just be a convenient excuse for the moment.  

You are looking at this from only one point of view as a medical person. The LEO must analyze the scene for the safety of all.   That also should be your concern as an EMT before you rush up to offer assistance to a person who is engaged in an escalating encounter with LEOs.  You may end up putting everyone in the area in jeopardy.    

For those of you who believe this was racially motivated, the next time one of you white all American looking types are pulled over for a "routine" traffic stop, get out of your car without the LEO asking you to.  You will see his/her weapon real fast and the tone of the stop will immediately change.


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## JPINFV

VentMedic said:


> For those of you who believe this was racially motivated, the next time one of you white all American looking types are pulled over for a "routine" traffic stop, get out of your car without the LEO asking you to.  You will see his/her weapon real fast and the tone of the stop will immediately change.



I can vouch for this. My dumbass father (see earlier post) decided to do that because he "always meets the officer at his car," [yea, maybe that worked in Delaware 30 years ago, but not nowadays] a few years ago when my family was back East for a family reunion (parents and I lived in Southern California at the time). He was told, in no uncertain terms, to get back in the car. Strangely, for what ever reason, he actually was left off with a warning.


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## bstone

VentMedic said:


> Do you believe everything you are told when under suspicious circumstances?  A hospital ED driveway could just be a convenient excuse for the moment.
> 
> You are looking at this from only one point of view as a medical person. The LEO must analyze the scene for the safety of all.   That also should be your concern as an EMT before you rush up to offer assistance to a person who is engaged in an escalating encounter with LEOs.  You may end up putting everyone in the area in jeopardy.
> 
> For those of you who believe this was racially motivated, the next time one of you white all American looking types are pulled over for a "routine" traffic stop, get out of your car without the LEO asking you to.  You will see his/her weapon real fast and the tone of the stop will immediately change.



If the LEO was truly concerned for the "safety of all" then he would have suspended his criminal investigation until the health of the non-criminal (the passenger) was assured. Then and only then be concerned about issuing a $50 citation to the horrible criminal who forgot to use a turn signal.

Yes, I am looking at this from a medical point of view. Which, once the scene was safe (the woman had informed the LEO that her passenger was in immediate need of emergency services mere feet away), the officer knew he was in no immediate need, he holstered his gun and thus should have attended to the medical emergency at hand.


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## JPINFV

If the dude had enough strength to wobble over and break his cane over the officer's head then I doubt that it's an emergency. You are also assuming that no one ever lies to a police officer.


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## bstone

JPINFV said:


> If the dude had enough strength to wobble over and break his cane over the officer's head then I doubt that it's an emergency. You are also assuming that no one ever lies to a police officer.



Oh, it's totally unforgivable. I am talking about everything *before* that part. The cane over the head was in some opinions due justice to the (in some opinions) over zealous cop. In any case, I am just focusing in on the first 2 minutes or so.


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## VentMedic

bstone said:


> Oh, it's totally unforgivable. I am talking about everything *before* that part. The cane over the head was in some opinions due justice to the (in some opinions) over zealous cop. In any case, I am just focusing in on the first 2 minutes or so.



So the LEOs that died in the line of duty while making a traffic stop probably deserved it if your summation of traffic stops and cops are correct.  Those LEOs might have been trying to give out a $100 ticket instead of $50.  That definitely would be reason to kill a cop if a $50 ticket warrants getting a cane strike on the head which also can be a fatal blow. 

This LEO probably should have been more aggressive the moment she got out of the van to get control of the scene before it escalated to the point it did. It should not have gone on for 2 minutes.  She wrote the circumstances when she did not pull over and again when she exited the van quickly.


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## bstone

VentMedic said:


> So the LEOs that died in the line of duty while making a traffic stop probably deserved it if your summation of traffic stops and cops are correct.  Those LEOs might have been trying to give out a $100 ticket instead of $50.  That definitely would be reason to kill a cop if a $50 ticket warrants getting a cane strike on the head which also can be a fatal blow.



:huh:Huh?:huh:

Are you saying I think it's ok to kill cops? What? I don't understand what you wrote? I am _only_ focusing on the first 2 minutes in which the cop denied a person of then-unknown medical status access into an emergency room in favor of a super minor traffic citation.

Anything else after that I think it unforgivable and just plain nuts.


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## VentMedic

bstone said:


> Oh, it's totally unforgivable. I am talking about everything *before* that part. *The cane over the head was in some opinions due justice to the (in some opinions) over zealous cop.* In any case, I am just focusing in on the first 2 minutes or so.



BTW, you didn't mention that the LEO was also an EMT. 

http://www.petoskeynews.com/articles/2008/01/24/news/doc479896b1c9625710233965.txt



> Troxel, who, like all Petoskey Department of Public Safety officers, is a certified emergency medical technician, testified that he looked into the van at Reggie Burks and said he did not appear to be in a life threatening emergency as he was conscious and did not have any immediately apparent injuries.
> 
> “He did not appear to be in distress, in pain or have any cuts,” Troxel said.


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## bstone

VentMedic said:


> BTW, you didn't mention that the LEO was also an EMT.
> 
> http://www.petoskeynews.com/articles/2008/01/24/news/doc479896b1c9625710233965.txt



Hmm, didn't see that part of the article. However any EMT who glances at a patient through a car while at the same time trying to secure a car in a traffic stop, control a pleading woman and trying to maintain your cool....well...I think we can all agree that the assessment is clearly sub-par and not to be trusted at all.


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## VentMedic

bstone said:


> Hmm, didn't see that part of the article. However any EMT who glances at a patient through a car while at the same time trying to secure a car in a traffic stop, control a pleading woman and trying to maintain your cool....well...I think we can all agree that the assessment is clearly sub-par and not to be trusted at all.



Scene safety first.  I do not see where he could have safely turned his back on her in her emotional state to do any more then glance at the "patient".

I would truly hope that you would exercise caution as an EMT when you are approaching hysterical people if not for youirself but for your partner's or the LEO's safety.


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## SC Bird

bstone said:


> Yes, I am looking at this from a medical point of view. Which, *once the scene was safe *(the woman had informed the LEO that her passenger was in immediate need of emergency services mere feet away), the officer knew he was in no immediate need, he holstered his gun and thus should have attended to the medical emergency at hand.



Don't know if I would have considered that a safe scene.  It would make me a little nervous if someone just jumped out of their car during a traffic stop.

I bet it would have been a different story.....no, not if she was white (as some are insisting this was a race issue)...but if the woman had simply waited in her car, then told the officer in as calm a manner as she could that her husband needed immediate medical attention.

-Matt


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## bstone

VentMedic said:


> Scene safety first.



Exactly. So there is absolutely no way he could have possibly done an assessment to the point of ruling out anything major.


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## bstone

SC Bird said:


> Don't know if I would have considered that a safe scene.  It would make me a little nervous if someone just jumped out of their car during a traffic stop.
> 
> I bet it would have been a different story.....no, not if she was white (as some are insisting this was a race issue)...but if the woman had simply waited in her car, then told the officer in as calm a manner as she could that her husband needed immediate medical attention.
> 
> -Matt



Is that what you would have done? Human nature would have made anyone jump out to a person in uniform and beg for help. Those who can remain calm when a loved one is seriously ill or injured are rare indeed. They're called EMTs.


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## SC Bird

bstone said:


> Exactly. So there is absolutely no way he could have possibly done an assessment to the point of ruling out anything major.



I'm not a LEO, but I am pretty sure that a confrontational/excited party exiting a vehicle during a traffic stop after refusing to yield supercedes the passenger at the time when we are talking about safety.  You never know what's coming out of the car....unfortunately there are many fallen officers who are evidence of that.

-Matt


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## SC Bird

bstone said:


> Is that what you would have done? Human nature would have made anyone jump out to a person in uniform and beg for help. Those who can remain calm when a loved one is seriously ill or injured are rare indeed. They're called EMTs.



Having known many friends in law enforcement, they've told me to NEVER come out of your car during a traffic stop unless instructed to.  I wouldn't even make quick movements when reaching for my insurance that is in my glove box.

So I guess, yeah....I might have shouted at him to hurry his butt up so I could explain that the passenger needed medical attention...but I would not have come out of my car....

-Matt


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## VentMedic

What were the guy's 3 other convictions since his sentencing guidelines were initially for the habitual offender 4th offense? 

When an LEO makes a traffic stop of any type, they never know who is in that car.  A screaming woman can be used as a distraction.  Stories can become very elaborate to mask other situations.  Rushing in with blinders on only to the medical situation is very dangerous.

This officer also had to make a discision within two areas of his training. Although, with either LEO or EMT training, scene safety is still at the top.


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## bstone

But once he knew that this woman was not throwing punches, had no weapons and was pleading for medical assistance for passenger, the officer then put away his pistol. At that point he assumed the scene was safe and proceeded with the credentials check. However, when faced with a medical emergency the credentials check should be suspended in favor of summoning or transporting to emergency help, correct?


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## VentMedic

I have too much respect for LEOs to continue this "bash the cop" thread after this post.  Police work is a difficult job especially if they also must look out for over zealous EMTs wanting to rush into scenes that they may not have all the information about.   Maybe he could have worded things differently but the lady behaved in a disregarding manner starting from the street that put the LEO into a high alert approach.  

I seriously doubt if this couple would have been happy inside the hospital either if they were told to wait in the waiting room since the man had only an abrasion to be looked at. Can you imagine the wrath or beating the triage RN might have gotten? With their tempers and emotions, what type of danger could others have been placed in?   There are reasons why some EDs police officers stationed there and not just the regular security guards. 

bstone, good for you that you are a patient advocate.  However, you must also understand that there are other professionals like LEOs that have special training to recognize signs of danger that you are not.   They are also there to protect and preserve life.  I believe neither the lay person nor an EMT is truly qualified to analyze that video to determine what policies and procedures were violated, if any, by that officer.   Many people can witness the same scene (or video) and all offer variations of what they perceived to have happened.  That is something you should also remember when trying to piece together facts at an MVC as an EMT.


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## BossyCow

What tells the biggest story to me, is when the woman tells the officer, just get someone from the ER to see to my husband and I will stay here with you. The cop's response is not to contact the hospital to arrange for help for the possibly injured pt, but to insist on seeing her registration and driver's license. The woman at that point has been compliant and in my opinion, more in control of herself and her behaviors than the officer. She did not push past the officer, but merely attempted to impress upon the officer the importance of getting help for her husband. The officer has the ability to contact the hospital and does so later in the incident, so it would have been simple to get the man taken care of. 

I know that Police work is dangerous and I have many friends who serve as LEOs. But, that doesn't mean that every cop in every situation is right no matter what he does to gain what he feels is necessary control.  This was a traffic citation, turn signal and exhaust, not speeding, not weaving in and out of traffic, not reckless driving, but what we used to refer to as chippy violations.


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## ffemt8978

Just because the vehicle makes it to the ER and claims to have a medical emergency, doesn't mean the driver and passenger get to run into the hospital away from the officer.  How many times have drivers tried to flee on foot into a building?  Should the officer let them go just because they're at a hospital?

Given the fact the "sick" passenger was able to get out and assault the officer with a deadly weapon, how much of an emergency was it?  Was it serious enough to run from the cops and endanger several lives yet not be serious enough that he was not in obvious distress?

Could the situation have been handled differently?  Absolutely.  Starting with the driver of the vehicle.  All she had to do was pull over when the officer initiated the traffic stop and explain the situation.  The whole thing could have been prevented at that point.  Why should she not be held responsible and accountable for the results of this initial bad decision?  Why do people insist on blaming the officer?

Also, something to keep in mind in most states.  Resisting arrest is illegal, regardless of whether or not the arrest is legal in and of itself.


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## Guardian

ffemt8978 said:


> Just because the vehicle makes it to the ER and claims to have a medical emergency, doesn't mean the driver and passenger get to run into the hospital away from the officer.  How many times have drivers tried to flee on foot into a building?  Should the officer let them go just because they're at a hospital?
> 
> Given the fact the "sick" passenger was able to get out and assault the officer with a deadly weapon, how much of an emergency was it?  Was it serious enough to run from the cops and endanger several lives yet not be serious enough that he was not in obvious distress?
> 
> Could the situation have been handled differently?  Absolutely.  Starting with the driver of the vehicle.  All she had to do was pull over when the officer initiated the traffic stop and explain the situation.  The whole thing could have been prevented at that point.  Why should she not be held responsible and accountable for the results of this initial bad decision?  Why do people insist on blaming the officer?
> 
> Also, something to keep in mind in most states.  Resisting arrest is illegal, regardless of whether or not the arrest is legal in and of itself.



amen........


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## bstone

ffemt8978 said:


> Just because the vehicle makes it to the ER and claims to have a medical emergency, doesn't mean the driver and passenger get to run into the hospital away from the officer.  How many times have drivers tried to flee on foot into a building?  Should the officer let them go just because they're at a hospital?
> 
> Given the fact the "sick" passenger was able to get out and assault the officer with a deadly weapon, how much of an emergency was it?  Was it serious enough to run from the cops and endanger several lives yet not be serious enough that he was not in obvious distress?
> 
> Could the situation have been handled differently?  Absolutely.  Starting with the driver of the vehicle.  All she had to do was pull over when the officer initiated the traffic stop and explain the situation.  The whole thing could have been prevented at that point.  Why should she not be held responsible and accountable for the results of this initial bad decision?  Why do people insist on blaming the officer?
> 
> Also, something to keep in mind in most states.  Resisting arrest is illegal, regardless of whether or not the arrest is legal in and of itself.



No one is saying that the person clearly wasn't as injured as made out to be. That is plainly obvious. It's first 2 minutes in which the officer was begged over and over to let a human being of then-unknown medical status into the ER but utterly refused. This is the concerning part.

The part where the injured man gets out and attacks the LEO shows that he wasn't all that injured, but take that out of the equation for a minute and just concentrate on the LEOs actions for the first 2 minutes. Do you think they were appropriate? I believe absolutely not.


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## ffemt8978

bstone said:


> No one is saying that the person clearly wasn't as injured as made out to be. That is plainly obvious. It's first 2 minutes in which the officer was begged over and over to let a human being of then-unknown medical status into the ER but utterly refused. This is the concerning part.
> 
> The part where the injured man gets out and attacks the LEO shows that he wasn't all that injured, but take that out of the equation for a minute and just concentrate on the LEOs actions for the first 2 minutes. Do you think they were appropriate? I believe absolutely not.



I wasn't there, so I'm not going to pronounce judgment.  But I will reiterate what I said earlier...this all could have been prevented if the driver had pulled over when the officer attempted the traffic stop.  Anything that happens after that is at least partially her responsibility.


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## bstone

ffemt8978 said:


> I wasn't there, so I'm not going to pronounce judgment.  But I will reiterate what I said earlier...this all could have been prevented if the driver had pulled over when the officer attempted the traffic stop.  Anything that happens after that is at least partially her responsibility.



We weren't there, but we do have a video of everything that happened. Which clearly showed an officer of the law more concerned about a traffic ticket for a loud muffler and lack of turn signal than a potentially injured human being. Who happened to be black.


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## BossyCow

bstone said:


> No one is saying that the person clearly wasn't as injured as made out to be. That is plainly obvious. It's first 2 minutes in which the officer was begged over and over to let a human being of then-unknown medical status into the ER but utterly refused. This is the concerning part.
> 
> The part where the injured man gets out and attacks the LEO shows that he wasn't all that injured, but take that out of the equation for a minute and just concentrate on the LEOs actions for the first 2 minutes. Do you think they were appropriate? I believe absolutely not.




Amen! 
I don't think this situation is black and white (no pun intended) where the woman driver is all in the right and the cop is all in the wrong, nor is the cop totally blameless and the woman in the wrong. There were errors in judgement made on both sides here. 

The cop is supposed to be a professional and should have attempted to diffuse the situation instead of pouring gasoline on the flames.  Every action he took ramped it up another notch when it would have been very easy to calm things down with a simple "Ma'am, I will call the ER and have someone come out here to help your husband, while we wait for them to get here, I need to see some ID, registration etc." 

Sure there are people out there who will lie, cheat and steal to get into a place like a hospital. Sure there are those who will fake an illness to get out of a traffic ticket. But does that mean we all should be treated as though we are a threat to national security when our only 'crime' was a minor traffic infraction? I don't think so!


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## SC Bird

bstone said:


> Who happened to be black.



:unsure::unsure::unsure::unsure::unsure:

You seem to be pretty stuck on the race card.

-Matt


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## bstone

SC Bird said:


> :unsure::unsure::unsure::unsure::unsure:
> 
> You seem to be pretty stuck on the race card.
> 
> -Matt



A white woman in a Lexus would have never received the same treatment.


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## ffemt8978

bstone said:


> A white woman in a Lexus would have never received the same treatment.



Careful...you're bordering on libel/slander.


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## ffemt8978

BossyCow said:


> There were errors in judgement made on both sides here.


The first being made by the driver who failed to stop when required.



BossyCow said:


> But does that mean we all should be treated as though we are a threat to national security when our only 'crime' was a minor traffic infraction? I don't think so!


And yet, routine stops for "minor traffic" infractions have resulted in the arrest of some of our most violent and dangerous criminals.  While admittedly rare, it does happen.  How is the officer supposed to know until he identifies the occupants of the vehicle?


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## bstone

ffemt8978 said:


> Careful...you're bordering on libel/slander.



In what way? Slander is an untruthful verbal accusation. It would be me saying "Paul is a child molester" when indeed this is not the case. Libel is an untruthful written or broadcast accusation.

I believe the case to be correct and I am not the first on this thread to have stated such.


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## bstone

ffemt8978 said:


> The first being made by the driver who failed to stop when required.
> 
> 
> And yet, routine stops for "minor traffic" infractions have resulted in the arrest of some of our most violent and dangerous criminals.  While admittedly rare, it does happen.  How is the officer supposed to know until he identifies the occupants of the vehicle?



But when your criminal gets out and begs for medical attention at te entrance of an ER, you have a moral, ethical and duty-bound obligation to put aside the minor traffic offense and attend to any potential medical emergency. Given it was bogus in this case, but the officer did not show he would have helped despite two minutes of desperate pleas.


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## BossyCow

It's okay, Some of us don't think the word 'liberal' is an insult. 

I even have a t-shirt that reads Jesus was a long haired, sandle wearing, liberal, rabble rouser. Yes I lived the 60's, I don't have real clear memories of the decade but I've got pictures that can prove I was there!


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## ffemt8978

bstone said:


> In what way? Slander is an untruthful verbal accusation. It would be me saying "Paul is a child molester" when indeed this is not the case. Libel is an untruthful written or broadcast accusation.
> 
> I believe the case to be correct and I am not the first on this thread to have stated such.



Libel also covers written words on a website.  For you to say that that officer would have treated a person differently based upon race is an unprovable assumption on your part.

While I don't believe you were specifically referring to the officer involved, and thus avoided the libel portion, you did appear to be very close to the line.  It was just a friendly reminder to all.


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## bstone

ffemt8978 said:


> Libel also covers written words on a website.  For you to say that that officer would have treated a person differently based upon race is an unprovable assumption on your part.
> 
> While I don't believe you were specifically referring to the officer involved, and thus avoided the libel portion, you did appear to be very close to the line.  It was just a friendly reminder to all.




It has to be derogatory. I have to say that whatever person is doing an evil act, like being a child molester, beating the elderly, etc. Saying that I believe someone to be a racist is clearly covered under the 1st amendment. If you would like me to stop as a policy of this website then that is different.


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## ffemt8978

bstone said:


> It has to be derogatory. I have to say that whatever person is doing an evil act, like being a child molester, beating the elderly, etc. Saying that I believe someone to be a racist is clearly covered under the 1st amendment. If you would like me to stop as a policy of this website then that is different.



Taken to PM...

To everyone else here, please be sure to state that your opinions are just that...your opinions and not facts.


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## So. IL Medic

Bstone, the man rightly was convicted of felony assault and the woman should be convicted of resisting and felony fleeing. You've taken a very ignorant position. As soon as she failed to stop, she was committing a felony, in most areas, by fleeing - even at low speed. The officer was acting within the regulations and guidelines of every leo dept I'm familiar with. Race had nothing to do with it. The crime, possibility of unknown threats, and her aggression clearly dictated his response as well as ramped up the index of suspicion. A white couple, asian couple, purple couple would have rightfully deserved the same outcome for the same actions.


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## Arkymedic

SC Bird said:


> I'm not a LEO, but I am pretty sure that a confrontational/excited party exiting a vehicle during a traffic stop after refusing to yield supercedes the passenger at the time when we are talking about safety. You never know what's coming out of the car....unfortunately there are many fallen officers who are evidence of that.
> 
> -Matt


 
Amen Matt I agree on this completely from LEO and Medic point of view. Scene safety is always #1.


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## Arkymedic

BossyCow said:


> What tells the biggest story to me, is when the woman tells the officer, just get someone from the ER to see to my husband and I will stay here with you. The cop's response is not to contact the hospital to arrange for help for the possibly injured pt, but to insist on seeing her registration and driver's license. The woman at that point has been compliant and in my opinion, more in control of herself and her behaviors than the officer. She did not push past the officer, but merely attempted to impress upon the officer the importance of getting help for her husband. The officer has the ability to contact the hospital and does so later in the incident, so it would have been simple to get the man taken care of.
> 
> I know that Police work is dangerous and I have many friends who serve as LEOs. But, that doesn't mean that every cop in every situation is right no matter what he does to gain what he feels is necessary control. This was a traffic citation, turn signal and exhaust, not speeding, not weaving in and out of traffic, not reckless driving, but what we used to refer to as chippy violations.


 
I have tried really hard to avoid getting involved with this discussion however I feel as if I just have to now due to all the comments on race, he deserved it, etc. First the racecard is bull:censored::censored::censored::censored:. Do you honestly think the ER is going to send someone out with a wheelchair or gurney? I have had the hospitals call EMS because of something that happened in their parking lot only to transport them the 100 or so feet, yards to the ER entrance. How do you know he had the ability? Do you know how long it takes dispatch to take care of a situation third party wise with no guarantee of action? Personally if someone exits their car before I do, my pistol is out and ready and the way I gain control of the scene changes rapidly. I also have responded on so many :censored::censored::censored::censored:ing bs calls of "oh my chest hurts" on people with suspended DLs, DUIs, no insurance that were told they were going to jail. Just the other night I ran for a guy was taking his 1 month "pregnant" (unconfirmed) wife to the hospital with abdominal pain and neither spok English but he could say that when they read him his rights for no DL, no insurance, and no proof of registration. I had a diabetic lead me into a high speed pursuit nearly striking two additional officers out on traffic stops and take me into a local city across state lines into Arkansas, only to surrender to their PD on the front steps bc "I was having a diabetic emergency and did not want to stop". I think the LEO acted with regard to his safety. To quote Sean Connery's character Jim Malone in The Untouchables, "You just fulfilled the first rule of law enforcement: make sure when your shift is over you go home alive. Here endeth the lesson".


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## bstone

So. IL Medic said:


> Bstone, the man rightly was convicted of felony assault and the woman should be convicted of resisting and felony fleeing. You've taken a very ignorant position. As soon as she failed to stop, she was committing a felony, in most areas, by fleeing - even at low speed. The officer was acting within the regulations and guidelines of every leo dept I'm familiar with. Race had nothing to do with it. The crime, possibility of unknown threats, and her aggression clearly dictated his response as well as ramped up the index of suspicion. A white couple, asian couple, purple couple would have rightfully deserved the same outcome for the same actions.



We will agree to disagree. My own experiences in law enforcement give me a certain insight into how a LEO acts. I will thank you for not insulting me by saying I am ignorant when indeed I have more insight then you may realize.


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## BossyCow

I stand by my 'opinion' that neither side in this was completely right or completely wrong. There were errors in judgement on both sides. I also repeat my belief that because some people are :censored: doesn't mean that we all deserve to be treated as we might be. As an American, I believe in the protection of the civil liberties of all our citizens, including those who enforce the laws. Due Process Rules!


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## daedalus

VentMedic said:


> So the LEOs that died in the line of duty while making a traffic stop probably deserved it if your summation of traffic stops and cops are correct.  Those LEOs might have been trying to give out a $100 ticket instead of $50.  That definitely would be reason to kill a cop if a $50 ticket warrants getting a cane strike on the head which also can be a fatal blow.
> 
> This LEO probably should have been more aggressive the moment she got out of the van to get control of the scene before it escalated to the point it did. It should not have gone on for 2 minutes.  She wrote the circumstances when she did not pull over and again when she exited the van quickly.


Im sure im going to heat some people up, but this cop got what he was asking for. And I think LEO's know there is a risk in their chosen field but they still have the duty to control the scene instead of escalate it. The man would not be so upset in the first place had the "officer" not strong armed his wife pleading for help. Its things like these and the other thread about the cop arresting the fire captain that make me lose respect for law enforcement in general. Police are given to much power and to little oversight. Im glad that youtube and online videos is slowly starting to change this.


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## emt9577

All I can say is WTF????


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## Arkymedic

daedalus said:


> Im sure im going to heat some people up, but this cop got what he was asking for. And I think LEO's know there is a risk in their chosen field but they still have the duty to control the scene instead of escalate it. The man would not be so upset in the first place had the "officer" not strong armed his wife pleading for help. Its things like these and the other thread about the cop arresting the fire captain that make me lose respect for law enforcement in general. Police are given to much power and to little oversight. Im glad that youtube and online videos is slowly starting to change this.


 
I hope you think of your very comment right here and about this when you are getting the :censored::censored::censored::censored:ing :censored::censored::censored::censored: beat out of you on a scene or in a unit and PD is the only one thats there for you. See how much you appreciate and respect them then...


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## VentMedic

daedalus said:


> Im sure im going to heat some people up, but this cop got what he was asking for. And I think LEO's know there is a risk in their chosen field but they still have the duty to control the scene instead of escalate it. The man would not be so upset in the first place had the "officer" not strong armed his wife pleading for help. Its things like these and the other thread about the cop arresting the fire captain that make me lose respect for law enforcement in general. Police are given to much power and to little oversight. Im glad that youtube and online videos is slowly starting to change this.



If you work in EMS, you probably wear a uniform.  There will be calls where it may look like you are being forceful or appear to be even harming someone. Even starting an IV with a co-worker holding the patient's arm can look like "strong - arming" to bystanders or family members. Yes, people will be judging and scutinizing your actions also. They may not understand your intentions and are only looking at a uniform hovering over their loved one.  If it is so easy for you to say that harming someone in uniform is justified, it will be even easier for those who have criminal ways to think the same.  That LEO came very close to not going back to his family that day.   I am sure that was not his intent nor did he want harm to come to anyone around him.


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## daedalus

With granted powers or abilities, there comes responsibility. Ours, which we are all hopefully true to in all our actions, is first do no harm.

With the power to deprive someone of life, liberty, and property, comes even greater responsibility to do the right thing. And what this officer did was not the right thing.

To those arguing scene safety, the women jumped out of the car not to threaten the officer, but because she had arrived at her destination, the ER. The officer could have told the women to calm down, than helped her with the wheel chair, and than wrote her the ticket for the very serious turn signal violation. To those saying I will remember this post when I am getting the :censored::censored::censored::censored: beat out of me, that is taken out of context. If we as americans see injustice from our government, it is our right and our duty to act against it. I would be more than happy to have a properly controlled and responsible police force. I would be even more grateful if they had helped me in a time of need.

To me, this is fundamental. An officer of the law should first do no harm, help those who need her/his help and enforce the laws he is sworn to uphold, properly.

/rant/soapbox


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## daedalus

What if that women just happened to be any of our mothers, with our father in the car having a CVA? An our mother was in a panic and jumped out of the vehicle for help, and the officer detained her. Than our father, with a ALOC, saw this man as an attacker harming his wife and beat him with the cane?


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## AZFF/EMT

It's BS. I believe the cop acted perfectly fine. The lady was driving crazy, did not follow orders and was conrontational. And then on top of it her husband who needed a wheelchair so badly get out and assaults the officer. The man is lucky he didn't really need an ER due to a GSW. 

The officer acted appropriately and the man should have been found guilty on all charges. Being sick or injured does not give you the right to break the law in any way. If that was the case on the way to the hospital, you could just pull over and assault someone for cutting you off in traffic, because you were in a hurry.

What else came of this story? Drugs in the vehicle? Strange........


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## Diver911

I can't believe this thread even exists!  For EMS personnel to wish harm on another person is just insane!  The cop got what he deserved...WTF!  Remember we are in the business of saving lives... regardless if you thought he was wrong... but to say he deserved to get hit!! WOW!  SOme of you need to think about maybe going into a different profession...


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## Grady_emt

So what if it was just a minor infraction, like others have said, many major offenses have been found from minor traffic stops. 100% with the officer on this one.   I just can't verbalize how stupid and absurd this whole topic has gotten from playing the race card, to police brutality, to shoulda-coulda-woulda's....it's just...crazy.


But my favorite quote by far from the whole thing:
"Oh S%$#, there's an ambulance coming, we need to move our cars"


.


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## Diver911

Oh yeah..100% with the officer!


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## MSDeltaFlt

*You have GOT to be kidding me!?!*

This is utterly phenomenal.  I don't know which is more ludicrous; the video or this race-based thread.  However, I must admit that seeing the cop get cracked on top of the head with a cane was pretty funny.

Yes, we don't have enough information about this.  Being pulled over for a minor infraction does seem out of place.  Granted most LEO's wouldn't even bother... maybe.  Did the name in whom the car was registered have any outstanding warrants?  What were the warrants?  Don't know.  Could have been probable cause for coming out of the car, not with gun drawn, but with side arm unholstered (notice he did put it back).  The paper did say the female's verdicts were still pending.  Why are they still pending?

I believe both sides could have handled things differently.

I must say that what disappoints me here is the "race" issue on this forum.  I honestly and humbly believe that we, as human beings, tend to get caught up in a "hurd mentality" at times.  I think this has less to do with race and more to do with cultural differences than people may realize.  This is not genetics.  It is the result of how people are raised.  The quintessential nature v/s nurture.

If you are taught to think, act, react, or believe a certain way, you will contiue to think, act, react, and/or believe that certain way until you are taught differently and accept that teaching.

My humble two cents.


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## VentMedic

MSDeltaFlt said:


> However, I must admit that seeing the cop get cracked on top of the head with a cane was pretty funny.



If the cane has not broken on impact, the LEO probably would have been more serverely injured or dead.  I don't see humor there. 

Tough job and I would not want to wish harm to come to anyone that does it.


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## MSDeltaFlt

VentMedic said:


> If the cane has not broken on impact, the LEO probably would have been more serverely injured or dead.  I don't see humor there.
> 
> Tough job and I would not want to wish harm to come to anyone that does it.



Vent, I wouldn't wish harm on anyone either.  Truely I wouldn't.  Honesty is the best policy, and I honestly believe that was funny.  I have that kind of a sense of humor and it tickled my funnybone.  If I were there when it happened, I'd treat him with all the respect a patient deserves.  But seeing it was just funny as hell.  I mean, come on.  Dude allegedly fell and was supposed to be injured.  Yet he STEPPED out of the car, WALKED up to the officer without using the cane, and then used it as a weapon.

That is the best way I know how to explain the first part of my post.  The rest of the post is completely serious.

With respect.


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## So. IL Medic

I am still baffled by so many posters that don't get it. She broke the law. She fled from an officer. If she had pulled over immediately, there would have been no problem. If the man was having serious medical issues, an ambulance wold have been called or the officer woulod have escorted them to the ER and then written any warnings or citations. But no! She failed to stop deliberately. A much more serious violation of the law. She got out and confronted the officer, a very stupid and dangerous act. The man then comitted a felony assault on an officer. Jail time no matter what. 

The fault completely lies with the occupants of the car. They made the conscious choices to violate laws.


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## BossyCow

Beat that dead horse!!!!


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## ffemt8978

BossyCow said:


> Beat that dead horse!!!!



Okay....

Wanted-Man-Escapes-Arrest-Claiming-Medical-Emergency



> ORLAND -- A man wanted on a parole violation may have used a medical emergency to escape an arrest warrant, police said.


It's situations like the one above that can give rise to the one in the original post in the thread.  A person claiming a medical emergency to avoid law enforcement can cause the cops to be more skeptical the next time they encounter a similar situation.


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## paramedix

I'm sorry, but the way he treated the situation was uncalled for. I do not say that the man who hit him over the head was in the right for doing so...

Rather check the facts first, if the lady says that her husband is injured, check it out before assuming she is lying! If you are then uncertain, get a backup squad to assist and get the man in the ER then deal with the lady. 

At least you wont end up with a attempted murder case against you. Here we get numerous cars that arrive at the ER with patients in the back. Sometimes DOA and sometimes full blown code red, it is not unusual. If a cop tries it here... we will most probably be called to go and pick him up with an ambulance. 

Rather follow the vehicle, assess the situation and then act...humanly...


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