# EMS workers allowed to carry weapons...



## DesertMedic66 (Sep 13, 2012)

http://www.examiner.com/article/virginia-moves-to-allow-ambulance-crews-to-carry-guns?cid=rss

Well this sure will be interesting :blink:


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## shfd739 (Sep 13, 2012)

I'd like to think most services and agencies won't allow it. 

The potential liability is not worth it.


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## DrParasite (Sep 13, 2012)

oddly enough, in a state like Texas where everyone has a gun (yes, I'm stereotyping, including gardeners if you ever saw the movie miss congeniality), it would appear that only people on the ambulance are not permitted to have guns.

A great quote from the article supporting armed EMTs, “Ambulance crews often arrive at crime scenes before the police have things in hand,” says Van Cleave. “They are truly first responders, so why disarm them?,” he adds."  

So if every civilian can carry a gun, and we know the EMTs don't, who will be the easy target?  If you were a bad guy, would you attack the armed civilian, or the ambulance people who aren't allowed to carry guns?


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## Bullets (Sep 14, 2012)

This should be merged with a similar thread in the news

Also, AD's thoughts

http://ambulancedriverfiles.com/2012/09/13/virginia-emts-granted-right-to-carry/


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## Prudy (Sep 17, 2012)

I see it as a big mistake to carry a gun in ambulance. If you are first at the place before the police, still people now that you are unarmed and you are there to cure and help. And you are not potential danger for them...
Also if you will be attacked by some homeless or junkie, I dont think that is good to aim an weapon. I am ok with paralyzers, peppers sprays etc... not guns...

(my opinion)


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## Doczilla (Sep 17, 2012)

Look at the "force continuum" or "escalation of force" that some local and federal law enforcement agencies use. 

How much does a LEO have to go through before and after using lethal force? 

How much training would it take to make a EMS provider, who's entire existance in a scene relies in law enforcement, able to function independently (for however small a time) in a violent scene? 

It's one thing for an off duty ANYONE to carry and defend themselves , its entirely another for someone wearing a uniform. If you think the CQI process is bad for an RSI,just think about the first time someone gets a few rounds pumped in them because some minimally trained EMT's got jazzed up at an unsecured scene. 

Having a weapon does not "secure the scene".  Giving EMS workers firearms isn't a solution for inadequate law enforcement response time. 

Barging in somewhere with a stretcher and "shooting the bad guy" is a pipe dream.


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## Bullets (Sep 17, 2012)

And once again, besides speculation, can you show me some evidence that EMTs WHO ALREADY POSSESS VALID CCW PERMITS are going to start blasting patients the first time they get a little upset? Perhaps in a place that didnt have CCW laws and now does? Surely if a place didnt allow carry permits for the general populace and then did, you would see a rise in shootings, based on the logic espoused by many here...

If i have satisfied my state governments requirements to carry a concealed firearm every day in public when i am shopping for food, getting gas, going to the dry cleaners, ect. why do i have to then give up that right when i go to work? 

On one hand the state is saying we trust you to carry a firearm, in some states OPENLY, but then they say, when you wear a uniform, we dont trust you


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## Doczilla (Sep 17, 2012)

Trust me, I'm all about guns. I just think people underestimate what it takes to be able to use lethal force correctly. I'm not risk adverse at all. 

Carrying weapons in an ambulance is a fantasy. Unless you're in robot-cop area Detroit.


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## DrParasite (Sep 17, 2012)

Doczilla said:


> How much training would it take to make a EMS provider, who's entire existance in a scene relies in law enforcement, able to function independently (for however small a time) in a violent scene?


A very good question.... Of course, you are assuming law enforcement is always on scenes with EMS, when in many places, especially the urban areas, you get a LEO only on certain calls, and depending on the LEO call volume (which is always more than EMS's, sometimes as much as 10x as many calls), you can get EMS on scene before LEO, with no ETA for police.


Doczilla said:


> It's one thing for an off duty ANYONE to carry and defend themselves , its entirely another for someone wearing a uniform. If you think the CQI process is bad for an RSI,just think about the first time someone gets a few rounds pumped in them because some minimally trained EMT's got jazzed up at an unsecured scene.


why???? and why is the CQI a problem?

Are you any more hotheaded or less competent the moment you put on a uniform?  or do you have a better chance of being found in one of these bad situations when you are sent into one?

I agree, the internal oversight will be intense, as it should be.  when a cop shoots someone, what happens?  does his supervisor pat him on the back, say "good job, here is your gun we will see you at work tomorrow!"?  Or does internal affairs investigate, the prosecutor investigate, he goes to a psychiatrist to make sure his brain is ok, and only after they all agree that he acted appropriately, is he told "good job, here is your gun back, we will see you at work tomorrow."  why should it be any different in the EMS world?


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## Shishkabob (Sep 17, 2012)

shfd739 said:


> The potential liability is not worth it.



There is no liability, because the agency is not the one arming them.


There simply is no logical reason why any responsible citizen, at anytime, in an ambulance or otherwise, should not have the ability to be armed.




My life is a lot more likely to be in danger outside my house than inside, so why should I be less able to protect myself outside?


As for "OMG a hothead EMT is going to start blasting!", several studies (One from University of Chicago, another from Newsweek) have shown that an innocent person is more likely to be shot by a police officer than an armed citizen (11% by PD, 2% by citizens, ABC News, July 2001)



As for "people won't trust you when armed":  Concealed means concealed.  No one will know I have a gun on me until it has to come in to play to protect myself (and less than 10% of times a gun is drawn in self defense are shots actually fired).  Correct, we aren't law enforcement.  The gun isn't there to enforce any other law than stopping attempted murder, sexual assault, robbery or other violent felonies against myself.  



And, above all else, it's my Constitutional right.  To say I shouldn't means nothing more than you disagree with the 2nd amendment.


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## leoemt (Sep 17, 2012)

I am a CCW holder and a former cop and I can say I don't agree with this. 

As a cop we are given tools to protect the public. Some of those tools are less lethal others are lethal. Cops don't want to shoot anyone and go through lots of training. Ever hear of the FATS simulator?

The other problem is the gun itself. How are you going to secure the gun? Even if it is concealed, when you are bent over the patient how are you going to keep it secured. It is not hard to spot a concealed handgun. 

There are too many problems that I can see happening. EMS needs to do something but guns aren't the answer. Personally, I think verbal judo training would be appropriate.


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## DesertMedic66 (Sep 17, 2012)

Linuss said:


> As for "people won't trust you when armed":  Concealed means concealed.  No one will know I have a gun on me until it has to come in to play to protect myself (and less than 10% of times a gun is drawn in self defense are shots actually fired).  Correct, we aren't law enforcement.  The gun isn't there to enforce any other law than stopping attempted murder, sexual assault, robbery or other violent felonies against myself.



One question here. Where are we supposed to conceal the gun at? At my company (as well as many others) we have to wear a tucked in uniform shirt. Same style as PD just a different color.


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## Shishkabob (Sep 17, 2012)

leoemt said:


> As a cop we are given tools to protect the public. Some of those tools are less lethal others are lethal. Cops don't want to shoot anyone and go through lots of training. Ever hear of the FATS simulator?


  That's just a load of bull.  Many police agencies nationally are feeling the crunch as well, and many of them don't do any real training past the academy, save for annual qualifications.  The average police officer rarely trains with their handgun beyond the requirements (look at NYPD, one of the biggest police agencies in the world, involved in shootings fairly often, and they are also one of the most poorly trained in handgun usage).


On top of that, in some states (like here in Texas), CCW/CHL shooting training requirements are on par to that of required by the LEO licensing agency.





> The other problem is the gun itself. How are you going to secure the gun? Even if it is concealed, when you are bent over the patient how are you going to keep it secured. It is not hard to spot a concealed handgun.


  There are more ways to conceal a handgun than the 4 o'clock position on someones waist,  and knowing a lot of EMS personnel, they have more than enough adipose tissue to help.

Again, concealed means concealed.  If you're doing it right, no one will know but you.




> There are too many problems that I can see happening. EMS needs to do something but guns aren't the answer. Personally, I think verbal judo training would be appropriate.


  Yes, verbal judo should be included in training, but c'mon, anyone who believes talking and running will ALWAYS keep you safe are acting naiive.  Fact is, there are irrational people who can run faster than you.





firefite said:


> One question here. Where are we supposed to conceal the gun at? At my company (as well as many others) we have to wear a tucked in uniform shirt. Same style as PD just a different color.



Depends on the person.  Different styles work for different people.  Heck, look up the "SmartCarry" which goes in your crotch region... hopefully you don't have patients and unknown bystanders feeling you up there on a daily basis.


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## DrParasite (Sep 17, 2012)

leoemt said:


> As a cop we are given tools to protect the public. Some of those tools are less lethal others are lethal. Cops don't want to shoot anyone and go through lots of training. Ever hear of the FATS simulator?


how many EMTs want to shoot someone?  In fact, I think ANY EMT who wants to shoot someone should have their EMT revoked, and sent to the military.

and your wrong, cops are given the tools to protect themselves FROM the public, and anyone who might cause them harm.  for example, guy with a gun is shooting up a store, a cop is sent to stop him.  the cop must stop him, and if his life in in danger, he can shoot the guy, who is the public in this example.  They are given those tools to mitigate the situation to ensure they go home with at little damage to them as possible. As a LEO, they can enter scenes using their higher level of training.  As an armed EMT, if i was armed, I would want to be able to leave an unsafe scene that I was trapped in so PD could enter and secure it, while suffering as little damage to myself and my partner as I could.  And just so we are clear, I am still not in favor of armed EMTs, not am i against it.


leoemt said:


> The other problem is the gun itself. How are you going to secure the gun? Even if it is concealed, when you are bent over the patient how are you going to keep it secured. It is not hard to spot a concealed handgun.


I must respectfully disagree.  I know quite a few officers (either PD or Corrections) who worked in not so nice areas, and carried concealed.  usually in an ankle holster, from what I was told.  With 100% confidence, I can say none of them were going to pull their gun unless they or their crew were in imminent danger, and that danger was caused by a bad guy recognizing them from their FT job and now thinking they were a soft target and wanted to cause them harm.  If they were to draw, they might be fired, but they would be alive. Remember, if no one knows you have a weapon, than you are doing it right.


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## NYMedic828 (Sep 17, 2012)

I think everyone in EMS should be trained to the highest level of Krav Maga mastery and should be capable of disarming a foe with a handgun, shooting them in the leg and detaching the slide from the receiver in under 15 seconds.


Also, NYPD officers often don't have the best aim but lets be realistic here. 9/10 cops probably won't fire a single round in the field in a 25 year career. That one time that something hits the fan, training often goes out the window real fast. I can train you to shoot at someone all you want but it's a whole different ball game when the target returns fire.


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## truetiger (Sep 17, 2012)

Just because we're on duty should not prevent us from having the same capability to defend ourselves as the general public. I work rural counties were its not uncommon to have 30 min ETA for law enforcement. If the scene becomes unsafe, its just you and your partner.


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## NYMedic828 (Sep 17, 2012)

Should the cashier at McDonalds be packing a 1911 .45 on his waist?

Some crazy people go through McDonalds on a daily basis...


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## truetiger (Sep 17, 2012)

How do we know they aren't? There was an instance of a pizza delivery guy getting robbed at gun point here in st. louis. The unlucky suspect was shot multiple times by the driver with a concealed weapon. Of course he was fired due to policy but he said getting fired was nothing compared to possibly being shot and killed.


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## DesertMedic66 (Sep 17, 2012)

truetiger said:


> Just because we're on duty should not prevent us from having the same capability to defend ourselves as the general public. I work rural counties were its not uncommon to have 30 min ETA for law enforcement. If the scene becomes unsafe, its just you and your partner.



So then elementary school teachers should be allowed to carry on duty because even when they are at work they need to be able to defend themselves the same as the general public. 

I should be able to carry inside a federal courthouse or jail/prison because I should be able to defend myself as a normal citizen correct?

Flight attendants should be able to carry because being on duty should not prevent them from carrying. I can go on and on. 

There are jobs and places that don't allow firearms (even for police).


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## truetiger (Sep 17, 2012)

Those examples are very controlled environments. The scenes we encounter every day are anything but controlled.


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## truetiger (Sep 17, 2012)

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-4277458.html

Ryan's crew members were pinned behind the fire truck until more help could arrive. One of the initial responding officers was also wounded. They were helpless until more officers arrived.


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## Doczilla (Sep 17, 2012)

CQI was a point of reference. 

Just seems people get worked up over this. 

People enthusiastically argue this, and it just seems a little off. And most of the people who are the biggest advocates (from who I've spoken to in person) of EMT's and paramedics carrying firearms on duty have never exchanged rounds with a hostile person. 

Careful what you wish for.


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## DesertMedic66 (Sep 17, 2012)

truetiger said:


> Those examples are very controlled environments. The scenes we encounter every day are anything but controlled.



Yes because shootings never happen at schools.... Or courthouses.... (I'm not even gonna bother linking to the school shootings)


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## DrParasite (Sep 17, 2012)

NYMedic828 said:


> Should the cashier at McDonalds be packing a 1911 .45 on his waist?
> 
> Some crazy people go through McDonalds on a daily basis...


wellllllll,  if the cashier at McD's has a .45 on his waist, and the Burger King has a no fire arms policy on premises policy that is strictly enforced, which restaurant are you going to rob at gun point?


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## truetiger (Sep 17, 2012)

Going to a school or court house is different then going to some address way out in the county at 0200. The court house has armed officers there anyway.


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## DrParasite (Sep 17, 2012)

firefite said:


> So then elementary school teachers should be allowed to carry on duty because even when they are at work they need to be able to defend themselves the same as the general public.


ehhh, sure, why not?  as long as it's concealed, and no one knows you are armed, go nuts.  but once they find out, expect consequences. The Pizza delivery guy is a great example of that; lost his job, but is alive.... I'd be ok with that, as well as file a massive lawsuit against my employer for failing to protect me from the armed robber.





firefite said:


> I should be able to carry inside a federal courthouse or jail/prison because I should be able to defend myself as a normal citizen correct?


absolutely not.  there are uniformed, armed personnel at the courthouses.  everyone that enters is screened to ensure they are not armed.  it's a controlled environment.  a jail or prison?  heck, even the on duty officers and on duty corrections officers aren't permitted to have weapons, for the same reason, it's a secure environment: NO ONE is allowed to have a firearm.  If somehow you lose it or have it taken away from you, there are as many dead officers as there are bullets in the gun.  Why should you be able to endanger all their lives by bringing a loaded weapon in? 





firefite said:


> Flight attendants should be able to carry because being on duty should not prevent them from carrying. I can go on and on.


I believe pilots were allowed to carry.  but it's the same concept, it's a secure facility, everyone is checked for weapons before boarding.





truetiger said:


> http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-4277458.html
> 
> Ryan's crew members were pinned behind the fire truck until more help could arrive. One of the initial responding officers was also wounded. They were helpless until more officers arrived.


hate to say it, but he could have had an M-16, a grenade launcher, and a 9mm, and he would still be dead.  As for his crew,they were out in the open, and able to seek cover.  not like they were inside a burning buildling, with a hose line, and started to take on hostile fire, or had a fire armed pulled on them.





Doczilla said:


> People enthusiastically argue this, and it just seems a little off. And most of the people who are the biggest advocates (from who I've spoken to in person) of EMT's and paramedics carrying firearms on duty have never exchanged rounds with a hostile person.


and I, along with probably everyone on here, would be very happy to never exchange rounds with a hostile person.  on duty or off.


firefite said:


> Yes because shootings never happen at schools.... Or courthouses.... (I'm not even gonna bother linking to the school shootings)


the question isn't do shootings happen... because if a crazy person wants to go on a shooting spree in a court house, all he needs to do is walk in, and start shooting before the check point.  or shoot the officer doing the checking, and walk in.  even if EVERYONE was armed and shot back, the shooter could still shoot people.


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## JPINFV (Sep 17, 2012)

DrParasite said:


> hate to say it, but he could have had an M-16, a grenade launcher, and a  9mm, and he would still be dead.  As for his crew,they were out in the  open, and able to seek cover.  not like they were inside a burning  buildling, with a hose line, and started to take on hostile fire, or had  a fire armed pulled on them
> 
> ...
> 
> the question isn't do shootings happen... because if a crazy person wants to go on a shooting spree in a court house, all he needs to do is walk in, and start shooting before the check point.  or shoot the officer doing the checking, and walk in.  even if EVERYONE was armed and shot back, the shooter could still shoot people.



Whereas EMS can use our magic spidey sense to shoot people preemptively?


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## DrParasite (Sep 17, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> Whereas EMS can use our magic spidey sense to shoot people preemptively?


I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, but thanks for playing


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## leoemt (Sep 17, 2012)

DrParasite said:


> how many EMTs want to shoot someone?  In fact, I think ANY EMT who wants to shoot someone should have their EMT revoked, and sent to the military.
> 
> and your wrong, cops are given the tools to protect themselves FROM the public, and anyone who might cause them harm.  for example, guy with a gun is shooting up a store, a cop is sent to stop him.  the cop must stop him, and if his life in in danger, he can shoot the guy, who is the public in this example.  They are given those tools to mitigate the situation to ensure they go home with at little damage to them as possible. As a LEO, they can enter scenes using their higher level of training.  As an armed EMT, if i was armed, I would want to be able to leave an unsafe scene that I was trapped in so PD could enter and secure it, while suffering as little damage to myself and my partner as I could.  And just so we are clear, I am still not in favor of armed EMTs, not am i against it.
> I must respectfully disagree.  I know quite a few officers (either PD or Corrections) who worked in not so nice areas, and carried concealed.  usually in an ankle holster, from what I was told.  With 100% confidence, I can say none of them were going to pull their gun unless they or their crew were in imminent danger, and that danger was caused by a bad guy recognizing them from their FT job and now thinking they were a soft target and wanted to cause them harm.  If they were to draw, they might be fired, but they would be alive. Remember, if no one knows you have a weapon, than you are doing it right.



I am wrong? I have spent years as a cop I got the experience to back me up. The tools we are given are to protect the public, not to protect us from the public. We are the people that get called when the crap hits the fan. It is up to us to mitigate the situation and resolve it according to the law. Ever hear of a Use of Force Continuum? Spend some time as a sworn police officer then come talk to me. I got friends who are medics but that doesn't make me a medic. 

Carrying concealed doesn't mean it is "invisible". Yes it is out of sight but that doesn't mean it still can't be spotted. I have worn every holster imaginable and depending on body position the weapon can become visible. I have had ankle holsters get revealed when I kneel, I have had hip holsters "print" when I bend over and I have had shoulder holsters show when I open my jacket.  Yes you can keep them hidden 99% of the time, but anyone who says otherwise is lying or ignorant. 

You are inches away from a patient when treating them. Do you really want a firearm that close to a patient? How can you protect the firearm from being taken when your tied up with patient care? 

There is a rule we use in law enforcement: There is a gun on EVERY CALL and you are the source of that gun. Protect it, Protect yourself, protect the public. Don't lose your gun."

We use Level III holsters on duty (Level II is state minimum). Not many manufacturers make concealable level II or III holsters. 

Get some experience using a firearm for your profession and being LEGALLY responsible for it and then come talk to me. Being a CCW doesn't count. 

There are distinct legal differences between being a CCW holder and carrying a weapon on duty for your job.


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## truetiger (Sep 17, 2012)

It wouldn't be "carrying a weapon on duty FOR your job." It's just being able to have the same level of personal protection available to civilians. As a LEO you are called as part of your job to disarm dangerous situations. Your weapon is one of many tools to accomplish this. As a paramedic, it is not my job, nor would I ever make it my job to do the job of a LEO. However, if in the performance of my job I find myself in a situation in which I believe my life is in immediate danger, why should I not be able to defend myself the same way I could if I was off duty?


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## Shishkabob (Sep 17, 2012)

leoemt said:


> I am wrong? I have spent years as a cop I got the experience to back me up. The tools we are given are to protect the public, not to protect us from the public.


  Actually yes, you are wrong, and I have several decisions by the US Supreme Court to "back me up".

Police are under no obligation to protect any private citizen.  The job of a police officer is to investigate a crime that has been committed and to punish those who did it, all after the fact.  There is no Minority Report going on... there is always a crime that has already been committed before an arrest is made.  Always.

The fact that PD has weapons has to do with the fact about the people they deal with and arrest, and protecting themselves from those people.


The fact that society is safer for the police doing so does not change that the police are not required, nor there, to protect society from an active dangerous criminal.  And that's been established through judicial law.  





> You are inches away from a patient when treating them. Do you really want a firearm that close to a patient? How can you protect the firearm from being taken when your tied up with patient care?


  The same exact way you protect it when a LEO is interacting with the general public.  Anyone touches my firearm has just given me every single legal and ethical reason to do anything from poke them to beat the snot out of them to outright shoot them because my life is now in danger.





> There are distinct legal differences between being a CCW holder and carrying a weapon on duty for your job.


Yup, but I point you back to the "Correct, EMS isn't LE, however we don't have the firearm to be LE, we have it to protect our lives, the sole and only reason to have a CCW/CHL"


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## Sandog (Sep 17, 2012)

If your so fearful for your safety while working on the job that you think you need a gun, then perhaps a career change is in order, like book keeping. Guns have no place in EMS, these threads are just a redundant waste of bandwidth.


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## Shishkabob (Sep 17, 2012)

Sandog said:


> If your so fearful for your safety while working on the job that you think you need a gun, then perhaps a career change is in order, like book keeping. Guns have no place in EMS, these threads are just a redundant waste of bandwidth.



So, should we ban gun ownership nationwide then?  I mean, if you are so fearful for your safety at home, you should just move, right?


Why are you against the 2nd amendment?


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## Sandog (Sep 17, 2012)

First off, I have nothing against the second amendment, but gun toting people like you have distorted its original intent. I served my country in the 70's and packed around a M-14. 

If you want a gun in your home, then more power to you, but guns do not belong on an ambulance. 

EMS is about healing, not killing. Just goes against what EMS is all about.


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## Shishkabob (Sep 17, 2012)

Sandog said:


> First off, I have nothing against the second amendment, but gun toting people like you have distorted its original intent. I served my country in the 70's and packed around a M-14.


  The amendment states clearly keep AND bear arms.  

I've not distorted its intent.  Whatever I say has no bearing on the current law.  The US Supreme Court, through multiple decisions, has brought about its intent and defining it much more clearly.  They have states that militia does not mean a state sanctioned group, and that people means person.


So yes, you are against the 2nd amendment if you are against 'gun toting', as that is the exact meaning and purpose of it.



> EMS is about healing, not killing. Just goes against what EMS is all about.


First rule about scene safety is I'm going home after the shift is done.  Me carrying is not about killing, it's about not letting someone else kill me.


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## Bullets (Sep 17, 2012)

Sandog said:


> First off, I have nothing against the second amendment, but gun toting people like you have distorted its original intent. I served my country in the 70's and packed around a M-14.
> 
> If you want a gun in your home, then more power to you, but guns do not belong on an ambulance.
> 
> EMS is about healing, not killing. Just goes against what EMS is all about.



Again, why do people believe that allowing EMTs/MICUs to continue to carry in accordance with their CCW permit = HIGH FLOW LEAD TO THE HEAD


EMS is about providing medical care outside the hospital setting in a safe and efficient manner.  I am the most important person on scene. I dont care about anyone else while my life is at risk and i cant mitigate that risk. Everything we do, our training and education is designed to mitigate risk we expose ourselves to during our daily activity, be it rescue  or medicine, exposure, haz mat, cbrne, ect. 

A few weeks of training during the police academy, which varies greatly from state to state, does not make one a marksman, it makes someone competent. Following graduation, shooting to qualify twice a year does not reinforce the skills necessary to effectively utilize  the most dangerous tool on your belt.

Heavy Rescue trucks bring hydraulically powered steel slicing machines and are operated inches from a patient. We train once a month in addition to the calls we get. Medics spend a year in school to inject up to 40 different dangerous drugs that intentionally stop the heart and have all manner of negative side effect and use these skills on a regular basis. Yet we allow cops to openly carry one tool after two weeks of instruction and a 30 mintute qualifier twice a year...


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## medicsb (Sep 17, 2012)

These horse-beatings can go on forever, but guns will never save the lives of EMSers or anyone else on the job.  The number of EMSers murdered on the job is far far far less than those that die from heart attacks or MVCs.  

Just because the 2nd amendment exists doesn't mean you can carry anywhere, anytime.  We have the first amendment, but it is pretty clear that you can't go free-speeching where-ever you want whenever you want.  This is reasonable to an extent.  I think it is perfectly reasonable for EMSers to be not allowed to carry guns.


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## DesertMedic66 (Sep 17, 2012)

Linuss said:


> Why are you against the 2nd amendment?



Why do you keep saying that everyone who doesn't agree with you is against the 2nd amendment? Just because we believe guns have no role in EMS has nothing at all to do with us possibily being against the amendment. But you keep insisting and insisting.


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## Shishkabob (Sep 17, 2012)

firefite said:


> Why do you keep saying that everyone who doesn't agree with you is against the 2nd amendment? Just because we believe guns have no role in EMS has nothing at all to do with us possibily being against the amendment. But you keep insisting and insisting.



It is a valid question to a valid position because none of you have argued differently.  You say you're for the 2nd, which is to keep and bear, and while some of you might be for bearing outside of work, you don't believe someone should in an ambulance.  No one has stated as to why yet that doesn't fall back on fear-mongering for unrealistic fears.  That seems counter-intuitive to being "for" something, does it not?

If someone has gone through the process of getting a CHL/CCW, give me a legitimate reason why they should not be able to carry while at work in an ambulance to protect themselves, in the rare, but very real, chance that their life could be in danger, either on a call, or sitting on the side of the road hanging out.


We've already proven there will be no bloodbaths.  We've proven that they are purely for self defense and not to enforce laws like LEOs.  We've proven that the vast majority of people that own them are not just going to go ape-sh  and blast someone away for looking at them wrong.  And we've proven that they have actually saved lives.


So I've yet to see a reason why they should not be allowed in places that aren't banned federally.  Show me.




medicsb said:


> I think it is perfectly reasonable for EMSers to be not allowed to carry guns.



Why?  Why is it reasonable?  Why is it reasonable for me to be otherwise defenseless against someone that wants to do me harm simply because I put a uniform on?


I'd argue it's quite reasonable to conceal in to a school because that is one of the most likely places to actually be when a mass shooting occurs.  Do you not agree?  If not, why?


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## DesertMedic66 (Sep 17, 2012)

Linuss said:


> It is a valid question to a valid position because none of you have argued differently.  You say you're for the 2nd, which is to keep and bear, and while some of you might be for bearing outside of work, you don't believe someone should in an ambulance.  No one has stated as to why yet that doesn't fall back on fear-mongering for unrealistic fears.  That seems counter-intuitive to being "for" something, does it not?
> 
> If someone has gone through the process of getting a CHL/CCW, give me a legitimate reason why they should not be able to carry while at work in an ambulance to protect themselves, in the rare, but very real, chance that their life could be in danger, either on a call, or sitting on the side of the road hanging out.
> 
> ...



We have stated reasons why carrying a weapon in the back of an ambulance is not a good idea (heck in my area PD has to remove their gun in order to ride with us). Small places and guns don't exactly mix. (now is when you go into the argument of "most shootings happen at under 5 feet". So then instead of a gun why not a taser? It can be used both at a distance and direct contact and is considered non-lethal). 

Unrealistic fears? So no one has ever been disarmed and shot with their own weapon? No one has ever had an accidental discharge of a weapon? No one has ever tried to pull a gun off an officers belt? (FYI all those have happened). 

If you have to have a CWP CCP in order to carry on the job what happens to the Medics and EMTs who are under 21 and can not get one? Hope they can run fast and hide good? How are we supposed to conceal the weapon when we have to wear 8inch boots and a tucked in uniform?

Your for the second amendment but yet your fine with no being able to bear arms where the federal government says you can't? Well that confusing. You should want to bear arms everywhere you go no matter what. If I visit the president I should have the right to bear arms because it is in the second amendment to bear arms.


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## Aidey (Sep 17, 2012)

Why is it all or nothing? Why is it either defenseless or gun?


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## DesertMedic66 (Sep 17, 2012)

Aidey said:


> Why is it all or nothing? Why is it either defenseless or gun?



That's what I'm trying to figure out (but not getting anywhere). Everyone I've talked to out of work (myself included) all agree that a non-lethal option would be a better for EMS. Self defensive courses, tasers, etc.


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## Sandog (Sep 17, 2012)

Your very quick to claim someone is against the constitution yet, have you ever even served this great nation to support that constitutional flag you wave so dearly.

EMS are to help the sick and injured, why do you feel you are so much in danger that you need firearms? I do not think the public would be so receptive to medical individuals claiming to help, carrying a gun.

The possibilities of something going very wrong, far outweigh the need for your false sense of security.





> Your for the second amendment but yet your fine with no being able to bear arms where the federal government says you can't? Well that confusing. You should want to bear arms everywhere you go no matter what. If I visit the president I should have the right to bear arms because it is in the second amendment to bear arms.



Good point.


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## nwhitney (Sep 17, 2012)

I believe a very important point is being missed here.

Private agencies who do not allow firearms to be carried by their employees during working hours are not violating their employees second amendment rights.

Interesting points from both sides and for me if given the option to carry I wouldn't.


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## medicsb (Sep 17, 2012)

> Why?  Why is it reasonable?



Because there isn't a demonstrable need for firearms as a means of self-defense for EMS.  There is nothing whatsoever indicating that guns would have any impact on death or injury of EMSers.  



> Why is it reasonable for me to be otherwise defenseless against someone that wants to do me harm simply because I put a uniform on?



But, you are NOT defenseless.  Even without a gun.  So I don't get what you are trying to say.


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## Shishkabob (Sep 17, 2012)

firefite;4278I0 said:
			
		

> Your for the second amendment but yet your fine with no being able to bear arms where the federal government says you can't? Well that confusing. You should want to bear arms everywhere you go no matter what. If I visit the president I should have the right to bear arms because it is in the second amendment to bear arms.



Funny, quite sure I Never said I agree with it. 



Sandog said:


> Your very quick to claim someone is against the constitution yet, have you ever even served this great nation to support that constitutional flag you wave so dearly..



I have a DD-214 with my name on it that says otherwise

Can't write much more due to being on my phone at work.


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## ffemt8978 (Sep 17, 2012)

If you want to challenge somebody's service history, DO IT ELSEWHERE!

If you want to debate the Bill of Rights, DO IT ELSEWHERE!

If you want to discuss EMS, then continue on.


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## DesertMedic66 (Sep 17, 2012)

Linuss said:


> Funny, quite sure I Never said I agree with it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But you did say you don't see a reason why they are banned other places. Which implies that you see a reason they are banned in federal areas. Which in turn means you do not support the 2nd amendment (according to what you were telling us). If you support the 2nd then you shouldn't see a reason they are banned anywhere because you have the right to defend yourself... 


And to keep my comment about EMS I agree with Medicsb


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## Sandog (Sep 17, 2012)

ffemt8978 said:


> If you want to challenge somebody's service history, DO IT ELSEWHERE!
> 
> If you want to debate the Bill of Rights, DO IT ELSEWHERE!
> 
> If you want to discuss EMS, then continue on.



Guns has nothing to do with EMS, so I think I am done.


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## Sandog (Sep 17, 2012)

Linuss said:


> Funny, quite sure I Never said I agree with it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, thanks for your service.


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## Bullets (Sep 17, 2012)

firefite said:


> That's what I'm trying to figure out (but not getting anywhere). Everyone I've talked to out of work (myself included) all agree that a non-lethal option would be a better for EMS. Self defensive courses, tasers, etc.



Ok, lets examine the other less-lethal options currently in use by Law Enforcement and assume laws would change to allow EMS to carry these

Hands and Feet-While a viable first line of defense, i am sure everyone here has had an experience where physical manipulation has not been up to the task. Either the mental status is severely altered so the assailant isnt affected, or the physical size of the assailant is greater then that of the assailed

Baton-Simply not enough room in a ambulance to deploy and wield effectively, training is more rigorous due to places where you can and cant strike. Assailant ducks and you strike them in the head? You are liable for injures, as ASP and Monadonack both state that head strikes are only to be used if intending to kill. Difficult to use in a one on one fight (PR-24 would be better but its hard to carry)

OC Spray-Use inside an ambulance highly impracticable, possibility of the assailed to be caught in fog. Some people are resistant to the effects of OC spray

Taser-Limited capacity, 1 shot and you have to reload. Contact tazing not as effective as cartridge delivery. To use contact tasing one must remove cartridge

Sidearm-Deployment inside ambulance may result in hearing damage, higher level of training and licensing required to carry

The intention isnt to arm EMS so they can use the firearm to enforce laws or gain compliance. It is to simply allow currently licensed individuals to continue carrying. its not a requirment to carry, its just an option for those who are already allowed to

Also, Carry would be under your armpit or belly band, draw through button front of shirt


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## mycrofft (Sep 17, 2012)

We can't teach everyone to give _*oxygen*_ properly/appropriately, how can we expect anything better than that regarding _*lethal force*_? The ONLY, only, alternative that can be used as a normative standard for deploying and utilizing lethal force is a law enforcement or military-based prehospital EMS system. Period.


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## firetender (Sep 18, 2012)

Having a gun in your possession shifts your consciousness.

It is a big deal to carry a concealed weapon because if there is a hint of feeling you're not safe, the first thoughts go to questions like; Should I use it? Now? When? How? 

In EMS, the place your thoughts need to be is on your role; to assist in preserving life.

Your focus shifts and now, it's living in the potential of you vs. them. 

Ain't EMS complicated enough without adding this :censored::censored::censored::censored: to it?


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## truetiger (Sep 18, 2012)

I don't think having a concealed weapon is going to shift your focus from patient care. If you have to consider using your weapon, your focus would have already shifted from pt care to survival. The weapon is meant to be a last resort in a situation in which getting fired would be the last thing on your mind.


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## DrParasite (Sep 18, 2012)

firefite said:


> We have stated reasons why carrying a weapon in the back of an ambulance is not a good idea (heck in my area PD has to remove their gun in order to ride with us). Small places and guns don't exactly mix.


Oddly enough, I agree with you.  firearms in the back of an ambulance are not a good mix.  It's can be treated as a controlled environment (similar to a jail), where no one has a gun, but the issue becomes the outside can't be controlled, and threats can come from outside that sheetmetal covered areas.  


Sandog said:


> I do not think the public would be so receptive to medical individuals claiming to help, carrying a gun.


I think that a person who was actually sick and in need of help would not care if the person who was helping them had a gun or not.





nwhitney said:


> Private agencies who do not allow firearms to be carried by their employees during working hours are not violating their employees second amendment rights.


a private agency can make their own rules.  that's corporate america, if you want to work at that company, you agree to follow their rules.  but you do give a great reason why all 911 EMS should be not private 


Bullets said:


> The intention isnt to arm EMS so they can use the firearm to enforce laws or gain compliance. It is to simply allow currently licensed individuals to continue carrying. its not a requirment to carry, its just an option for those who are already allowed to


and not only that, a LEO has all those options, so if the situation is escalated, they can properly answer.  so if a bad guy pulls a gun on them, they aren't only able to respond with a tazer.

Not for nothing, but if I'm forced to defend myself with a firearm, than my life is in imminent danger.  more often than not, the danger isn't coming from inside the ambulance, and even if it is, it's very very rarely a life threat (usually leaving the ambulance allows LEO to deal with the issue).  If I'm armed, i will not be drawing to enforce laws, nor will I be doing so to ensure compliance.  Only to protect my life and the life of my partner when we are facing an imminent danger to our life.


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## 11569150 (Sep 18, 2012)

I guess ill add my two cents:
I work in a very rural county on a private ambulance.  We run medical aids by ourselves with no fire support.  Our county has experienced cut backs for the sherrifs office and their response time to assist us can be upwards of 40 mins to an hour.  Almost every house we respond to has pot gardens and well armed shady occupants. Many times our crews are met with entirely hostile residents even on the "standard" calls that wouldn't warrent police assistance (I.e. anything except violence related calls, attempted suicides, etc.) In our company I know for a fact that most of us have CCW permits and at any given time you can bet all our rigs have at least on concealed weapon on board.  This has been going on for years and I will tell you that not one instance has occurred where a weapon was drawn, fired, etc that I am aware of and certainly no "overly excited EMT-related shootings have occurred."  We carry our concealed weapons not as a first, second, or even third resort but as a very last ditch attempt to escape with our lives.  Long narrow driveways with little turnaround room make escape very difficult in an ambulance and if it comes down to a resident firing at us first than you can bet we will certainly return fire.  Many of our medics are trained swat medics as well and know how to keep a level head.  Do I feel that legally having guns in an ambulance is a good idea? Absolutely.  Do I think that some boogereaters out there in our profession shouldn't even be allowed to carry mace let alone a gun? Absolutely.  There's a lot of different types of people in our profession just like everywhere else but the idea in general is a fantastic idea to help improve the safety of first responders everywhere.


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## DT4EMS (Sep 18, 2012)

Give EMS the same "level" of training, all the other "protection" options and I am in. The training can't be the "same" because the desired outcome is different. Otherwise:


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## 11569150 (Sep 18, 2012)

One more thought: I am in support of emts being allowed to carry CONCEALED firearms.  Open carry would open up a whole new can of worms because you are moving from personal protection to implied law enforecement.


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## mycrofft (Sep 18, 2012)

11569150 said:


> I guess ill add my two cents:
> I work in a very rural county on a private ambulance..... There's a lot of different types of people in our profession just like everywhere else but the idea in general is a fantastic idea to help improve the safety of first responders everywhere.


 (I shortened the quote).
Man, the grape and weed belt of Calif is not similar to most of our co-paticipants' experience,you have my respect. How often have you had to produce a firearm? Heck, you might wind up at an outdoor scene looking at a wild boar sometime!

I think very rural/frontier situations are different than the vast majority of prehospital work in the USA. (Aussies, how about your Outback?).

truetiger, yeah, but..."I don't think having a concealed weapon is going to shift your focus from patient care. If you have to consider using your weapon, your focus would have already shifted from pt care to survival".  There is precious little time to "consider".  Unless you draw the weapon at the first inkling of danger, in close quarters the aggressor will prevail (heck, will most likely prevail in any situation if the aggressor gets the "first punch" in), so if you feel the working environment is that dangerous, to be meaningful, the weapon has to be ON HAND, LOADED, maybe/maybe not SAFETY OFF, at all times...and so becomes dangeous in and of itself and through increased likelihood of theft and loss (ask me about the federal marshals who left their sidearms under the front seat then came back and put an inmate in the back seat before they re-holstered... h34r: )

Overall, this thread is better than many in the past that devolved into caliber matching exchanges.


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## Doczilla (Sep 18, 2012)

Yes. People underestimate how much time and training it takes to use a pistol in enough time to make a difference. 

Thousands of rounds. Transitions, stress shooting, immediate action.....


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## mycrofft (Sep 18, 2012)

...when to hold em and when to fold em...


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## 11569150 (Sep 18, 2012)

Mycrofft: fortunately I have not been in a situation where either I nor my coworker have had to draw our weapons.  However, we have been in places where we have certainly discussed a plan of attack in case the situation did become volitile.  We try our very best to cool off a situation using verbal judo and then egress as quickly as possible just like any other amb crew would.  Like I said, the weapons are strictly for last resort i-cant-get-away-and-this-guys-trying-to-kill-me type scenarios.  Anyway, you are correct in regards to this being a unique situation to most other areas but the concept still remains true: a few well established, well trained individuals should be allowed to have concealed weapons on any ambulance just in case that once in a lifetime situation should arise.  (I am excluding, of course, places like the kill zone in Oakland or the mean streets of LA because people are just way to heavily armed in those places and one little concealed Glock is not gonna do a whole lot of good)


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## Shishkabob (Sep 18, 2012)

Aidey said:


> Why is it all or nothing? Why is it either defenseless or gun?



Because when it comes to fighting for your life against someone who wants to take it, it IS all or nothing.


They aren't to be used if you're smacked by a patient.  They aren't to be used if you have a patient angry at you.  They are to be used when you have no other form of recourse to protect your life.  Simply put, talking and running don't always work.  There are times that no matter what you do, you have to fight.  Anyone who has worked in EMS for ANY length of time knows how quickly a call can go from calm to SHTF with no warning / time to safely react at all.  It's more likely to happen while working than it is the average bystander walking down the street.



Tell the family of Mark Davis that he screwed up when he was shot and killed by a patient.


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## truetiger (Sep 18, 2012)

Linuss said:


> Because when it comes to fighting for your life against someone who wants to take it, it IS all or nothing.
> 
> 
> They aren't to be used if you're smacked by a patient.  They aren't to be used if you have a patient angry at you.  They are to be used when you have no other form of recourse to protect your life.  Simply put, talking and running don't always work.  There are times that no matter what you do, you have to fight.  Anyone who has worked in EMS for ANY length of time knows how quickly a call can go from calm to SHTF with no warning / time to safely react at all.  It's more likely to happen while working than it is the average bystander walking down the street.
> ...



Well put, +1


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## mycrofft (Sep 20, 2012)

Doczilla said:


> Yes. People underestimate how much time and training it takes to use a pistol in enough time to make a difference.
> 
> Thousands of rounds. Transitions, stress shooting, immediate action.....



I'll bow out with this, and DT4 can back me up on this. Firearms are not for point-blank defense. Prison guards are taught how to fire a sidearm with the shooting hand against their chest just for such "I'm taking one with me" situations. Let a determined person close with you (or be cooped up in an ambulance) and the likelihood is far greater that the attacker will either take away your weapon, or just smack you silly or otherwise render you unable to use a firearm or knife or machete etc. Like sensei said, best defense is don't be there for the blow to fall.


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## Sandog (Sep 20, 2012)

Carrying a firearm can lead to the potential for taking a life. One is never prepared for such an event. Once that trigger is pulled, there is no going back. Your world as you know it changes forever. Your sleepy nights as you have come to enjoy, change forever. I am not sure that many of you truly realize just how much, lethal force will irrevocably alter you, forever...


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## DrParasite (Sep 20, 2012)

Sandog said:


> Carrying a firearm can lead to the potential for taking a life. One is never prepared for such an event. Once that trigger is pulled, there is no going back. Your world as you know it changes forever. Your sleepy nights as you have come to enjoy, change forever. I am not sure that many of you truly realize just how much, lethal force will irrevocably alter you, forever...


you know, not for nothing, but I'd rather have sleepless nights for the rest of my life, than have my life ended.

a gun isn't the first line of defense.  it isn't the second or third.  it's the last line, when it's your life or the life of your attacker.  And if it's between me killing him and him killing me, I'm not sorry to say, I want to go home at the end of the day, and that means my life is more important than his.  

btw, guns in the back of the ambulance are generally a bad idea.  but outside the ambulance, where others may have guns, well, then the idea isn't all that bad or unreasonable. 

I've never had a gun pulled on me.  and I hope to never have a gun pulled on me.  but if I did have it happen, I'd want to be able to do whatever was needed to make sure I survive the encounter.


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## firetender (Sep 20, 2012)

*Reset targets please!*

What a surprise, the topic has jumped tracks!

I seem to be closing a lot of threads like this lately, and believe me it's because EMS gets left far behind along with the coolness under fire associated with it.

So, I'll leave it up to you all to turn this into something relevant to EMS, and if you can't...


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## msaver (Sep 21, 2012)

I'm from VA and this law will apply to me. Like any rule or law it has a good side and a bad side: It allows for EMS workers to protect themselves, but I would be worried that it could get in the way and a patient could grab it especially while you are very close to them in the rig (leaning over them to get something from a cabinet). It is going to be interesting to see how it all works out. There are definitely good intentions here, nonetheless.


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