# Paramedic fired after posting pictures online



## VentMedic (Jun 1, 2007)

*Paramedic fired after posting pictures online*
By Paducah Sun 
Courtesy of © 2007, YellowBrix, Inc. 

CLINTON-HICKMAN COUNTY, Ky. — The Clinton-Hickman County Ambulance Service fired John Snow one day after he was beaten up for allegedly posting pictures online of a local teenager's fatal car crash. More than 100 people cheered when the agency's board announced the paramedic's termination Tuesday night.

http://www.jems.com/products/ambulances/articles/288312/

http://www.firefightingnews.com/article-US.cfm?articleID=31716


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## VinBin (Jun 1, 2007)

Posted on his MySpace, how intelligent...


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## emt666 (Jun 1, 2007)

VentMedic said:


> *Paramedic fired after posting pictures online*
> By Paducah Sun
> Courtesy of © 2007, YellowBrix, Inc.
> 
> ...


if no photos showed the victims face then i dont see any harm done to many teens now days thimk they are invincible :excl:


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## Airwaygoddess (Jun 1, 2007)

emt666 said:


> if no photos showed the victims face then i dont see any harm done to many teens now days thimk they are invincible :excl:


I think that posting photos of a fatal car crash on "My Space"  is a mighty thin line between "educating the public" and a very bad case of ego and "look what I do" bragging rights.  This individual was already being investigated by his company for inappropriate actions along those lines.


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## oldschoolmedic (Jun 1, 2007)

*Wait a minute..*

Let me see if I have this straight...

1. Has anybody involved in the assault actually seen the picture in question, or have they just heard about it through a third party?

2. The director of the ambulance service asked the paramedic to document the scene of the accident with his camera. What was the purpose of these photos if other government agencies were already documenting the scene? That smells fishy already.

3. He was assaulted on duty at their station. Good security.

4. He wasn't suspended during the investigation because it wasn't economically feasible? They acknowledge he has done something to violate their internal policies, but because they can't afford to pay him they continue to put him in a position to do the same thing again? Well I hope the family realizes they have a lawsuit which will cost the service far more than what they would have had to pay Snow while they waited out the investigation.

5. He was terminated ONE DAY after the alleged incident. That is some indepth investigation, Matlock couldn't have solved it quicker.

6. Do the alleged photos posted show the victim? This is central to the whole argument.

7. Now, the people involved in the assault want the charges dropped? This is the Southern "Sometimes a good ***-kicking is justified defense."

8. They freely admit the assault, it occurred on duty as a direct result of the medics actions at work, they show no remorse about the incident to the point of bragging about it. Where I work that is called felony assault, and it is on a healthcare worker which raises the penalty, or since the attack invoved more than two attackers it could be tried as lynching.

9. The police acknowledge they haven't investigated the family's allegations about said pictures, referring to them as a rumor.

10. The photos in question, if they exist, were posted in a blog describing his work as a paramedic. As long as there are no visible identification issues (i.e. vanity plates, custom paint, victim's face, date/time stamp, etc...) there is no reason for this to have been a problem. It could have been any mvc he had worked.

11. He was already under investigation for posting photos online of wrecks he had worked. Why would he post more? Isn't that just adding fuel to a fire? Surely his attorney told him not to do anything of the sort during the investigation?

12. What is/was the outcome of the state's investigation? Surely that will play a part in whether he wins a really big lawsuit against the ambulance service and local government in question or not.

13. The director of the ambulance service stood in the parking lot and discussed internal personnel matters with the concerned parties? What about their employees rights concerning their human resources department?

Just some points to ponder. I doubt the whole story will ever come to light.


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## firecoins (Jun 1, 2007)

These people who assaulted the medic didn't even see the pictures? What the hell?


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## TripsTer (Jun 1, 2007)

I see homemade vids of wrecks all the time. I dont remember HIPAA saying you cant take photos of scenes.


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## BossyCow (Jun 4, 2007)

TripsTer said:


> I see homemade vids of wrecks all the time. I dont remember HIPAA saying you cant take photos of scenes.



It doesn't say you can't take photos, just regulates what you can do with them without the express permission of the patient.


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## SwissEMT (Jun 4, 2007)

What about if the license plates and faces are blurred out?


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## BossyCow (Jun 4, 2007)

SwissEMT said:


> What about if the license plates and faces are blurred out?



Depends on the use of the photo.  We are allowed to use photos for training purposes.  We are also allowed to take them to show the MOI to the attending.  But, to take scene photos and post on MySpace when that puts pretty graphic stuff up for viewing indiscriminately by the general public I think was ethically wrong.  It was also pretty insensitive.  I live in an extremely rural area where everyone knows what everyone else drives.  We planned on using the wreckage from an MVA in which 4 local teens punched a tree after prom.  We had the permission from the parent of one of the kids.  The grandparents of the driver stopped the whole thing because they felt it was too traumatic for the driver to have to deal with.  The big issue was, we couldn't use the wreckage because it was too easily identified as being from a particular incident and violated the rights of the driver.  

Now, I personally had some issues with this, I mean.. can you spell e-n-a-b-l-e? The idea that this driver almost killed three of her friends while driving under the influence I think supercedes her right to walk away from the incident emotionally unscathed. But, her legal guardians were the only ones determining that.  

But, in that instance the point of the photos was to have a teaching moment with the other kids in the school about what happens when you punch a tree doing 70mph and to possibly save some of them from the same type of wreck.  What again was the reason that paramedic posted the photos he took?


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## jeepmedic (Jun 4, 2007)

Show me a law that says you can't? Just look in the newspaper sometime or even on TV. Princess Di's wreakage was all over the news and internet and has been for over 10 years now. I have seen pictures on the front page of a newspaper where the body was covered up in the middle of a main road waiting for the medical examiner to come.

I do not agree with posting the pictures. I think it is morally wrong but we live in a time where everyone wants things done by the law not morals.


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## BossyCow (Jun 4, 2007)

jeepmedic said:


> Show me a law that says you can't? Just look in the newspaper sometime or even on TV. Princess Di's wreakage was all over the news and internet and has been for over 10 years now. I have seen pictures on the front page of a newspaper where the body was covered up in the middle of a main road waiting for the medical examiner to come.
> 
> I do not agree with posting the pictures. I think it is morally wrong but we live in a time where everyone wants things done by the law not morals.



Princess Di's wreck was pre HIPPA and not in the U.S. and not subject to our laws.  I bet you could find out some cool stuff on the Kennedy assassination, Victims of Jack the Ripper and the Boston Strangler as well.  

The law states that if you bill for your services, you cannot pass the information you gather about that person to anyone else without the expressed permission of the person or their legal representative.  

This causes some rather interesting interpretations of the law.  I work for both a volly fire agency, who does bill, and a SAR agency who does not.  As the volly fire worker, I cannot give out to the press, any information about MVA's without the expressed permission of the pt's.  However, the SAR operates under the umbrella of the local sheriff's department, doesn't bill for services and even though we have EMT -B's and P's on our crew, we are not an EMS agency, but an affiliate of the local trauma council.  SAR can release information about subjects of searches under the rules that govern them for other law enforcement issues. We are not subject to HIPPA. 

When you are in a small town where everyone knows everyone else, I think its a good idea just to keep your mouth shut, the records and photos at the station and not risk being known as a good conduit for gossip about 'what really happened at.......'


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## wkymedic (Jun 4, 2007)

*Straight from the whipped horse's mouth*



oldschoolmedic said:


> Let me see if I have this straight...
> 
> 1. Has anybody involved in the assault actually seen the picture in question, or have they just heard about it through a third party?
> 
> ...



Okay, I am the paramedic accused of posting the pictures. I am the paramedic that had is "***-kicked". Since most of you aren't jumping to conclusions and automatically hanging me, I wanted to answer some of your questions to get the truth out there. Then judge for yourself.  Everything I state you should be able to verify from another source, so if you don't take me at my word, then search it out.

Since Oldschoolmedic asked most of the questions everyone was wanting to know, I will just follow his forum.

1. As far as I, the police, and the ambulance service director can best find out, the people involved in the assault had only heard about the pictures. They, and everyone else, have been asked to provide a website address so the pictures could be tracked to a computer. But everyone asked says they heard from someone else.

2. The director of the ambulance service is the county coroner, therefore she had full authority to request pictures to be taken. Her camera was malfunctioning and I only took 2 pics of the full scene from a distance, not up close and none even remotely showed the victim.

3. Yes, good security, I'm checking on filing a lawsuit against the county as they own the building and Homeland Security sent them a report warning against exactly such a thing and instructed how to prevent it.

4.  I was never determined to have violated an internal policy, they did not have a policy concerning pictures. The state attorney advised her she could suspend me, with or without pay, but if she did so without pay, then the service would be held responsible to pay me for the backpay when I was found innocent. I begged her to suspend me, but couldn't get her to. The service could not afford it.

5.  Yes there was quite an extensive investigation, not. The police is continuing to investigate the alleged photos that related to the assault. However, I can guarantee if any are posted, they did not come from me. Once it was determined that the pics were not needed, they were deleted. I do not even have copies of the pics, they are no longer in existance.

6.  Okay, now which alleged photos are you asking about? The state investigation is stemming from some photos of injuries I posted on a different website, NOT Myspace. These photos gave no location, gave no dates, showed no faces, and were only upclose pics of injuries. These pics are mild compared to pics you see in our textbooks. The photos the family are accusing me of, we do not know what they include because we can't find anyone who has actually seen them, but please, if any of you come across them, send me the link.

7.  Yes, they want the charges dropped. Even if I wanted to, which I don't, I could not drop the charges as they are felonies. If I had been guilty, I never would have sought out the charges as I would have deserved it. But they beat me over rumors.

8.  Yes, they freely admit the assault and brag about it, multiple times. In print and on video. They even threaten me on video, however, the news did not show that. The assault is a felony as I was on duty, assault 3rd, same as assaulting an officer. A fifth should be charged as well. I'm hoping since there will be five charged, the county attorney will consider organized crime charge.

9.  No, if you re-read the police chief's quote, he stated nobody asked has seen the pictures, all have only heard about them third-party so it is merely rumors at this time.  Last I had spoken with him, he still had not come up with anyone who had actually seen the pictures. But he's still trying to find either the photos or who incited the rumors.

10.  I've already addressed this, but will again. All of my pics contained NO identifiers. The website gave no location or identifier. I have worked for three services in 18 yrs, these pics could have been taken at anytime during my career. No faces, no dates, no times, no locations, no vehicles. The only one that gave identifier was a co-worker, he gave full consent, and that pic IS on myspace. Again these pics were only closeups of injuries, no faces. I can share if interested, but will not post for obvious reasons.

11.  lol, I didn't need an attorney for that advice. Only one of the patients was from an MVA, the rest were various injuries. All, except one, were fully alert and oriented when I took the pictures in the ER. The one that was not, was deceased on the scene.  Again, only up close injuries. The one that was the MVA had facial injuries and part of the face is visible. However, he gave me permission twice to do with the pics as I please. In fact, I gave him copies of the pics upon his request. None of the pictures were taken during my care as I was accused. All were after my care.

12.  They keep pushing my case back. They have pushed it back now until June the 15th. At that time they will divulge if they found enough evidence to proceed with investigation and possible disciplinary measures.

13.  Yes, I've mentioned that to the director on previous occasions, however, she has to succumb to the board's wishes as they write the checks. However, I'm checking on filing a suit against them as well.

That's the whole story on my side. If there are any further questions I'd be glad to answer them. Thanks for your time.


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## Summit (Jun 5, 2007)

While I greatly appreciate your response here, I hope for your sake that you cleared it with your lawyer. I would hate to see your case compromised.

If what you said is true, I hope you fight the injustices you've suffered and fight them hard. I'll be cheering from the sidelines.


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## emtjaysen (Jun 5, 2007)

I read many forums and EMS news sites and this seems to be a frequent issue that comes up.  EMTs and Medics posting pictures or talking about calls on myspace, posting just enough information for victims to be tracked down. 

I've been around EMS for a short while and a close friend of mine who was a Paramedic here in Oregon was recently terminated for posting details of a rape victim on his myspace, adding in his 2 cents of what he feels women should do when encountered by a rapist.  Not only is he unemployed, he faces a million dollar lawsuit and most likely will lose his certification.  

How many times does this have to happen until people realize that it is not ok?  We are viewed by the general public as medical professionals and we are suppost to be highly trusted.  If these incidents keep occuring then the public will look at us as not trustworthy and unprofessional.  Personally, I worked very hard for my EMT certification and I would like patients to trust me when I respond to their calls for help.  The news media is a big influence in today's society and when one person messes up, everyone pays. 

Patients have a right and expectation of privacy while in our care and we should not be posting pictures of our calls on the internet.  It's not right.  

My advice, just don't do it.  I know it might be tempting and it's human nature to want to do what someone else does.   It's not worth the risk of losing your job and the public embarassment of being in every newspaper and website across the country and sued by the patient.  MySpace is an evil addiction and just about everyone has one.  If you absolutely need to have a myspace, keep it private and be selective who is on your friends list and who can see your content.  Employers are now starting to check myspace to see if their employees have one.  I've heard of this practice going on.   Myspace does have controls to limit access.  Be smart and use them or just don't get myspace at all.   It's really common sense and alot of people I have met are lacking in that.  EMTs and Medics should be some of the last people to have to face this issue.

Just my thoughts


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