# trucks idling



## Silver_Star (Dec 9, 2010)

So recently my company has decided that when we get posted (our posts are parking lots), we are no longer allowed to idle and keep our trucks on. Is it legal to keep us in freezing trucks?


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## Shishkabob (Dec 9, 2010)

How would it be illegal?


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## Sasha (Dec 9, 2010)

Might not be illegal, but I'd refuse to sit in a turned off truck for more than a minute or two. No AC or heat, no radio, can't even charge cell phone battery and I'd imagine even if the temp was alright it's get stuffy from lack of air circulation. 

But I've never been in a truck where the main radio works when the trucks turned off so I've never encountered that problem.


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## Shishkabob (Dec 9, 2010)

Agreed.

If challenged by management, id state I was keeping it at an acceptable level for patient care.  If they continue to moan id find other ways to circumvent the rule, such as driving around in circles in a parking lot.


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## jjesusfreak01 (Dec 9, 2010)

Silver_Star said:


> So recently my company has decided that when we get posted (our posts are parking lots), we are no longer allowed to idle and keep our trucks on. Is it legal to keep us in freezing trucks?



Do you have diesel or gas rigs? Diesel trucks will idle forever without using much gas, so it's not economically unfeasible to let them idle if you are using diesel rigs. If so, see if you can reason with your superiors, its at least worth a shot.


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## socalmedic (Dec 9, 2010)

in California it is illegal to idle a diesel engine longer than 5 min.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/regact/hdvidle/hdvidle.htm

this regulation was put in place in 2005 to include only Semi tractor-trailors. and ammeded in 2006 to include any truck larger than 3/4ton used for commercial use (Private ambulances specifically included, except when on an emergency scene). this is from the California Air Resource Board.

your company may just be forwarding you the information. the may not intend to enforce it. i would ask your supervisor why they are implementing this program.

I realize you arent in California, however i know we arent the only state with emission issues. it may be a new law for  you too.


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## FreezerStL (Dec 9, 2010)

> If challenged by management, id state I was keeping it at an acceptable level for patient care.



Exactly. 

Are you going to wait for the truck to heat up before transporting a hypothermic patient?


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## Silver_Star (Dec 9, 2010)

Our trucks are diesel. I was just curious since its getting damn cold! 30 degrees is not fun!


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## Sasha (Dec 9, 2010)

I love how you all are thinking about patient care/comfort.. that never even crossed my mind. I was just thinking about Sasha comfort.


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## Epi-do (Dec 9, 2010)

We are expected to idle our trucks in the winter if we aren't parked in the bay at the firehouse.  The reason we were given was so that the truck isn't getting super cold & then warmed back up again & the effects that could have on the drugs in the back.  It also keeps it comfortable for when we do put a pt in the back.


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## usalsfyre (Dec 9, 2010)

Here, unless the module is tempature controled via other methods, the state would have something to say about how your storing medical supplies. 

Personally, if where I worked was being so chickensh!t as to leave me without even a generator powered box to stay warm in, I'd look for other employment.


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## Shishkabob (Dec 9, 2010)

Sasha said:


> I love how you all are thinking about patient care/comfort.. that never even crossed my mind. I was just thinking about Sasha comfort.



But Sasha, you're cold hearted, you should be just fine with the heat off in the winter


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## Sasha (Dec 9, 2010)

Linuss said:


> But Sasha, you're cold hearted, you should be just fine with the heat off in the winter



Yeah but the kittens I eat for breakfast meow too much when they're cold. Do you know how annoying it is to eat a meowing kitten?


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## MedJPavlo (Dec 9, 2010)

socalmedic said:


> in California it is illegal to idle a diesel engine longer than 5 min.
> 
> http://www.arb.ca.gov/regact/hdvidle/hdvidle.htm
> 
> ...


is it really? damn. I live and work out here in socal and have sat and idled for hours before. at the time i posted this, i hadnt read the article. but does it go into detail what the fine for idling longer is?


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## socalmedic (Dec 9, 2010)

MedJPavlo said:


> is it really? damn. I live and work out here in socal and have sat and idled for hours before. at the time i posted this, i hadnt read the article. but does it go into detail what the fine for idling longer is?



this is the 2005 document, couldn't find the 2006 addendum so you may not find the light duty clause. i dont know what the fine is, but in CA with out you having a commercial license the fine goes to the company. I dont think there is an LEO anywhere who will enforce it anyway, it is mostly a CHP thing. additionally in 2008 they made another revision because of the new ford exhaust system which puts out almost no particulate at idle there are exceptions now. there should be a shinny sticker above the exhaust pipe if you are exempt. they are mostly on smaller big rigs. if you look it will say "CARB EXEMPT" and "CLEAN IDLE" i wouldnt worry about it in your ambulance, i have gotten away with it for 5 years now without so much as a warning from a SUP. they post the notice every 6 months or so in the station.


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## JPINFV (Dec 9, 2010)

Sasha said:


> I love how you all are thinking about patient care/comfort.. that never even crossed my mind. I was just thinking about Sasha comfort.



For weather extremes, I view it as if I'm comfortable, the patient will be reasonable comfortable. The temp can always be fine tuned, but 50 degrees is going to be cold to anyone.


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## JJR512 (Dec 9, 2010)

Linuss said:


> ...If they continue to moan id find other ways to circumvent the rule, such as driving around in circles in a parking lot.



Circumvention by circumnavigation, LOL!


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## WTEngel (Dec 9, 2010)

This is probably an obvious question and I am sure you wouldn't be posting this thread if the answer was yes, but do you guys have the auxiliary generators on your box, or is everything run from the main engine of the ambulance?

I used to work for a service that was in Frazier ambulances and they had a generator that ran the entire box module...so you could run the generator with the engine off and still maintain a tolerable temperature in the patient and crew cabin. This is really a great design in my opinion...

Looking at the subject objectively though, it doesn't make much sense to not allow you to maintain the temperature in the patient and crew compartment, especially if you are not posting in a building. I am sure the department of health and other regulators of EMS in your area have something to say about maintaining the temps of your meds. I know here in Texas our meds had to be in a temperature controlled atmosphere all the time, and we had to take special precautions for cold meds, as they could become ineffective if allowed to get hot. Lastly, has anyone tried to get all the crystals to dissolve in 40 degree mannitol? Not fun when you really need to hang it!

TE


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## MedJPavlo (Dec 9, 2010)

socalmedic said:


> this is the 2005 document, couldn't find the 2006 addendum so you may not find the light duty clause. i dont know what the fine is, but in CA with out you having a commercial license the fine goes to the company. I dont think there is an LEO anywhere who will enforce it anyway, it is mostly a CHP thing. additionally in 2008 they made another revision because of the new ford exhaust system which puts out almost no particulate at idle there are exceptions now. there should be a shinny sticker above the exhaust pipe if you are exempt. they are mostly on smaller big rigs. if you look it will say "CARB EXEMPT" and "CLEAN IDLE" i wouldnt worry about it in your ambulance, i have gotten away with it for 5 years now without so much as a warning from a SUP. they post the notice every 6 months or so in the station.


ok thank you for the explanation:beerchug:


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## Silver_Star (Dec 9, 2010)

WTEngel said:


> This is probably an obvious question and I am sure you wouldn't be posting this thread if the answer was yes, but do you guys have the auxiliary generators on your box, or is everything run from the main engine of the ambulance?
> 
> I used to work for a service that was in Frazier ambulances and they had a generator that ran the entire box module...so you could run the generator with the engine off and still maintain a tolerable temperature in the patient and crew cabin. This is really a great design in my opinion...
> 
> ...



No generators. We don't carry meds either. On an EMT-B cert there is nothing you can really give. Though I wish NJ would use the EMT-I. So I guess I'm doomed to freezing. I should start stocking up on snuggies and heat packs!


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## MedJPavlo (Dec 9, 2010)

Silver_Star said:


> No generators. We don't carry meds either. On an EMT-B cert there is nothing you can really give. Though I wish NJ would use the EMT-I. So I guess I'm doomed to freezing. I should start stocking up on snuggies and heat packs!


u could pop the hood and stand in front of it for a good 30 mins. after that..ur on ur ownh34r:


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## WolfmanHarris (Dec 9, 2010)

Trucks are on and running unless in a base or at the hospital.


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## DrParasite (Dec 9, 2010)

Silver_Star said:


> So recently my company has decided that when we get posted (our posts are parking lots), we are no longer allowed to idle and keep our trucks on. Is it legal to keep us in freezing trucks?


I'm curious, which company is it?  PM me if you don't want it public.

there are two reasons this is done.  The first is it burns fuel, and fuel is expensive (or so my supervisor keeps telling me), and leaving the trucks running while at post is a waste of money.  the second is that in NJ (like in Cali) it is illegal to idle a diesel engine.  you see the warning signs in the parking lots of Wawa all the time saying not to idle your engines.

It def sucks, and most places don't enforce the laws about emergency vehicle idling.  instead of asking people on a web forums, why not call the nj department of labor and ask them?


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## Silver_Star (Dec 10, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> It def sucks, and most places don't enforce the laws about emergency vehicle idling.  instead of asking people on a web forums, why not call the nj department of labor and ask them?



Yeah. That probably would have been the best option. But I was hoping some mega whacker would have known.


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## Bullets (Dec 10, 2010)

Its also really bad for the diesel engine to try and force a cold start. The glow plugs need to warm up first, which in the 20-30 degree weather we are currently experiencing in the garden state could take a minute or more, delaying response time


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## lightsandsirens5 (Dec 10, 2010)

Bullets said:


> Its also really bad for the diesel engine to try and force a cold start. The glow plugs need to warm up first, which in the 20-30 degree weather we are currently experiencing in the garden state could take a minute or more, delaying response time



Not only do the plugs need to warm the block, but the engine should warm up while running as well. I have a diesel pickup and in cold wx I keep it plugged in. Still, the plugs take a good 20 seconds to heat, but it takes about 3-4 minutes to come out of high idle. (indicating it is warm enough to drive safely) 

That would significantly delay response time in my opinion. But that is just my opinion.


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## firemedic07 (Dec 11, 2010)

is it just me or is every thing either 1 or 2 things in cali. 1 illegal, or 2. known to cause cancer in california. lmao. 
here in nc, we leave the trucks running during the winter when were standing by where we have an office.


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## socalmedic (Dec 11, 2010)

you are wrong. it isnt one or the other, here in CA. everything is illegal and causes cancer. we are not allowed to have any fun, which is why i am looking at any reason to leave.


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## firemedic07 (Dec 11, 2010)

socalmedic said:


> you are wrong. it isnt one or the other, here in CA. everything is illegal and causes cancer. we are not allowed to have any fun, which is why i am looking at any reason to leave.



haha damn, that sucks. its nice here in NC not having to worry about every lil thing.


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## EMSLaw (Dec 11, 2010)

Silver_Star said:


> No generators. We don't carry meds either. On an EMT-B cert there is nothing you can really give. Though I wish NJ would use the EMT-I. So I guess I'm doomed to freezing. I should start stocking up on snuggies and heat packs!



According to the information I got from several reliable sources at the State EMS Convention, including conversations with various people present at the medical directors' meetings, both OEMS and the various medical directors want to see the new National Scope EMT-AEMT-Paramedic model in NJ.  Along with expansions to the EMT scope of practice, such as ASA.  

Given the rate EMS changes are introduced in NJ, I wouldn't exactly hold my breath, but there seems to be support for a change. 

In response to the OP, I would rather get in trouble for idling my rig than freezing in this weather.  Though it should only take a few seconds (not minutes) for the 'wait to start' light to go out so you can get the rig going again.  

And yes, I have idled the rig.  Sometimes parked directly in front of the WaWa "no idling!" sign.


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## socalmedic (Dec 11, 2010)

ummm, am I missing something. what is a WaWa?


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## EMSLaw (Dec 11, 2010)

socalmedic said:


> ummm, am I missing something. what is a WaWa?



It's a ubiquitous chain of convenience stores in this area, many of which now also have gas stations.  Think 7-11 or Circle K or what have you.


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## CAOX3 (Dec 11, 2010)

Do you carry epi, or pens they need to be kept between 60-85 degrees.


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## Bullets (Dec 11, 2010)

CAOX3 said:


> Do you carry epi, or pens they need to be kept between 60-85 degrees.



Or oxygen? ever give a patient O2 that is anything colder then room temp? you'll probably kill them if you did, espcially if its below freezing


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## WARR (Dec 11, 2010)

So how long does it take to get everything running? The MDC, radio, electronics, etc, in the rig if you have to have it turned off while posting? I know most PD's have their squad cars idling when on a call since it takes for ever for things to boot up. because if there is an emergency down the road they have to jump in the car and go - not wait for everything to boot up and get warm. It'll delay response time.


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## JPINFV (Dec 11, 2010)

All of the electronics in the ambulances I've been in (MDTs and radios) operate off of battery power regardless of if the engine is on or the key is in the accessories position. Additionally, when turning them on, they are on immediately without need for boot time.


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## jjesusfreak01 (Dec 11, 2010)

EMSLaw said:


> It's a ubiquitous chain of convenience stores in this area, many of which now also have gas stations.  Think 7-11 or Circle K or what have you.



Its somewhat different. They have a cult following unlike other convenience store chains. People speak of them as legendary edifices, places where one can always acquire a quick donut or coffee.


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## JJR512 (Dec 11, 2010)

jjesusfreak01 said:


> Its somewhat different. They have a cult following unlike other convenience store chains. People speak of them as legendary edifices, places where one can always acquire a quick donut or coffee.



Not in Maryland, not in my experience. We have them here, but they aren't regarded any more highly than any of the other similar chains.


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## medic417 (Dec 11, 2010)

jjesusfreak01 said:


> Do you have diesel or gas rigs? Diesel trucks will idle forever without using much gas, so it's not economically unfeasible to let them idle if you are using diesel rigs. If so, see if you can reason with your superiors, its at least worth a shot.



Actually if you read the manuals on newer diesels you will find they are not designed for extended idling.


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## Silver_Star (Dec 11, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> I'm curious, which company is it?  PM me if you don't want it public.
> 
> there are two reasons this is done.  The first is it burns fuel, and fuel is expensive (or so my supervisor keeps telling me), and leaving the trucks running while at post is a waste of money.  the second is that in NJ (like in Cali) it is illegal to idle a diesel engine.  you see the warning signs in the parking lots of Wawa all the time saying not to idle your engines.
> 
> It def sucks, and most places don't enforce the laws about emergency vehicle idling.  instead of asking people on a web forums, why not call the nj department of labor and ask them?





Bullets said:


> Or oxygen? ever give a patient O2 that is anything colder then room temp? you'll probably kill them if you did, espcially if its below freezing



Then how come I have no problem breathing outside during cold weather?


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## socalmedic (Dec 11, 2010)

medic417 said:


> Actually if you read the manuals on newer diesels you will find they are not designed for extended idling.



High Idle. any diesel new or old, they actually over heat if not running at a high enough RPM. 900-1100 rpm is what we are thought is the safe range for a diesel engine.

on a side note has anyone worked in a gas amblam. i got the pleasure the other week and let me tell you they are the bees knees. smooth, quiet, QUICK AND FAST. we wont know about the durability for a year or two but for now they are getting rave reviews. the ford V10 is the way to go right now.


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## medic417 (Dec 11, 2010)

socalmedic said:


> High Idle. any diesel new or old, they actually over heat if not running at a high enough RPM. 900-1100 rpm is what we are thought is the safe range for a diesel engine.
> 
> on a side note has anyone worked in a gas amblam. i got the pleasure the other week and let me tell you they are the bees knees. smooth, quiet, QUICK AND FAST. we wont know about the durability for a year or two but for now they are getting rave reviews. the ford V10 is the way to go right now.



Actually has to do with idling at any speed they clog up exhaust then you have to send them for repair.  The 2011 models with exhaust fluid may not have as much trouble but that is yet to be seen.


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## reaper (Dec 11, 2010)

High idle has nothing to do with overheating or clogged exhausts in a diesel engine. 

When a diesel idles below 1200 rpms. They fuel will start stacking in the cylinders. This causes "washdown", which will basically wash the oil off the cylinder walls and destroy the engine. Most high idles are set from 1250-1500 rpm. The only time a diesel should idle normal is after a long hard run. This is to allow the turbo to cool down, before shutting it off. If you shut down a hot turbo, it will burn the oil on the bearings and bushings.  This is called "coking" and will destroy a turbo fast.


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## JJR512 (Dec 11, 2010)

reaper said:


> High idle has nothing to do with overheating or clogged exhausts in a diesel engine.
> 
> When a diesel idles below 1200 rpms. They fuel will start stacking in the cylinders. This causes "washdown", which will basically wash the oil off the cylinder walls and destroy the engine. Most high idles are set from 1250-1500 rpm. The only time a diesel should idle normal is after a long hard run. This is to allow the turbo to cool down, before shutting it off. If you shut down a hot turbo, it will burn the oil on the bearings and bushings.  This is called "coking" and will destroy a turbo fast.



A diesel should also idle normal when the vehicle is stopped at a red light.

Does this "washdown" you mentioned also occur with modern electronic fuel delivery systems?


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## reaper (Dec 11, 2010)

Yes, as you know a diesel needs heat for combustion. When it idles to long at low rpm, the cylinders lose heat and all the fuel does not burn. So it starts collecting on top of pistons. Then gets by the rings and washes the oil away from the walls.


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## JJR512 (Dec 11, 2010)

reaper said:


> Yes, as you know a diesel needs heat for combustion. When it idles to long at low rpm, the cylinders lose heat and all the fuel does not burn. So it starts collecting on top of pistons. Then gets by the rings and washes the oil away from the walls.



Seems like this would be incredibly easy to manage electronically. For example, if the brain determines the engine is getting too cool, it can raise RPM just enough for for just long enough to get it warm enough. This way, the use of high idle can be minimized, thus minimizing the extra fuel consumption, extra pollution, extra wear and tear, and extra noise associated with it.


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## reaper (Dec 11, 2010)

A lot of the big Detroits and cats do have this. Just hasn't hit the smaller ones. Costs more money


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## JJR512 (Dec 11, 2010)

reaper said:


> A lot of the big Detroits and cats do have this. Just hasn't hit the smaller ones. Costs more money



It shouldn't be significant. It's just a bit of programming. The temperature sensors and means of controlling engine RPM are already there. But it's good to know it's being worked on, at least.


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## socalmedic (Dec 12, 2010)

i know my engines engine hi idle in 1150rpm per the manufacture it is a Detroit 60 series 450hp. my ambulance hi idle set by ford is 950. 1500rpm would be screaming, that is higher than crusing speed.


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## Aerin-Sol (Dec 12, 2010)

I really wish my service told us things like "it will damage the trucks if you let them idle normally for hours at a time," because I had nooo idea before reading this thread and wouldn't have thought to look into it.


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## MMiz (Dec 12, 2010)

Aerin-Sol said:


> I really wish my service told us things like "it will damage the trucks if you let them idle normally for hours at a time," because I had nooo idea before reading this thread and wouldn't have thought to look into it.


It was something that I had to be told, too.  We were always instructed to set the parking brake so the engine would "high idle" when we were posted, dropping a patient off, etc.

Just don't forget to release the brake before your next call, it's embarrassing when you're driving down the road and smoke is coming from the brakes.  Trust me.


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## C.T.E.M.R. (Dec 12, 2010)

Wow you guys have it bad, the company i run with just built us a new station which is where we run out of unless on standby, Climate controlled bays, buses are always plugged in and ready to go. We don't ever have to bed anywhere but the station unless on a call.On standby though we try to keep our rigs relatively warm, but at most events its summer so its trying to keep it cool. BTW the 2010 fords are JUNK, we've had to many problems with ours before they even hit 40,000 miles. Oh and our E-brakes only work for high idle, they wont hold the rig in place


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## socalmedic (Dec 12, 2010)

C.T.E.M.R. said:


> our E-brakes only work for high idle, they wont hold the rig in place



this is because someone drove with it on, or you need to adjust it. you may want to have the mechanic take a look at that...


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## wgffireftr (Dec 13, 2010)

I know in our region of NY we have to keep our vehicles running most of the time, be it hot or cold to keep our on-board drugs within certian temp. ranges.


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