# Police taze Alzhaimer's Pt



## rmabrey (Jun 21, 2012)

http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/news/local/north_central/peru-police-tase-alzheimer-patient?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+WISHTV_News+%28WISHTV.com+|+Indianapolis%2C+IN+-+News%29

Looking past the liberal sensationalism of the article, I really see nothing wrong with the Officers actions. 

Now where i do see the problem, the same problem i see in many NH, as Im sure most of you do, Is staff, on a locked Alzheimer's unit, calling police for an increasingly aggressive and combative patient. Last time I check, that is generally what happens with Alzheimer's patients. If the staff cannot be expected to actually manage patients, outside of making sure they eat, then something needs to be reevaluated. You cannot pass blame on Officers which shouldn't have been there in the First place. 

I saw it posted in another thread earlier, but I wasn't around in the days where NH's were "skilled". All I see now is death farms where the only skill is collecting medicare checks. /rant


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## mycrofft (Jun 21, 2012)

*Ahead of her time*






*DOROTHEA MONTALVO PUENTE*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothea_Puente


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## rmabrey (Jun 21, 2012)

Excuse my title typo


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## Aidey (Jun 21, 2012)

Something to keep in mind about the multiple tases - police tasers are only active for 5 seconds. The theory is that a police officer using their taser will have back up immediately available to assist so it doesn't need to be active for very long. The civilian version is active for 30 seconds, so that you have time to run.


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## Achilles (Jun 21, 2012)

I sure wouldn't have tased him, I probably would have used pepper spray.


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## Aidey (Jun 21, 2012)

Pepper spray in a dementia ward where 1/2 of the patients probably have COPD and/or CHF? That sounds like an MCI waiting to happen.


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## Shishkabob (Jun 22, 2012)

Achilles said:


> I sure wouldn't have tased him, I probably would have used pepper spray.



So, you wouldn't use the safer of 2 choices that once it's done, it's done, and can be kept on a single person, but instead go towards the one that not only is less controllable and able to incapacitate all in the immediate area, but also someone might have an allergic reaction, and/or exacerbate other medical conditions such as asthma or COPD?


Whether you're disobeying a command due to being a thug idiot, drunk on alcohol, high on drugs, or have a medical condition, oh well, deal with the 5 second ride.  Those who put themselves in to the altered mental state learned their lesson, and those who were there by happenchance are now controlled in the safest manner possible.  Just because you most likely wont be charged with battery due to a medical condition doesn't mean you still aren't a current threat to people on scene and need to be controlled.  


I've been TASED.  It hurts, it hurts like hell, but after 5 seconds the pain is just a memory, and is often sensationalized by the media solely because of the electrical means of its action.  I have no issue with liberal use of TASERs to obtain compliance, as they're intended to be used for.


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## bstone (Jun 22, 2012)

> The officer then handcuffed Howard, which left a large, bloody gash on his wrist and escorted him to Duke's Memorial Hospital.



Cuff's too tight. Should have used leather restraints. No reason to use a tazer on an Alzheimers patient. Just give him some Ativan and wait for it to kick in. I would never Taze an Alzheimer's PT. I am sure no one in my dept would either.


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## ffemt8978 (Jun 22, 2012)

Since when do police carry leather restraints and Ativan?  If those were needed, it was up to the staff to use them instead of calling PD.


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## bstone (Jun 22, 2012)

ffemt8978 said:


> Since when do police carry leather restraints and Ativan?  If those were needed, it was up to the staff to use them instead of calling PD.



They don't. He was in a NH on the Alzheimers secure floor. Undoubtedly they have Ativan and leather restraints. There was no need to taze him. I doubt my sergeant would ever allow such a thing.


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## ffemt8978 (Jun 22, 2012)

So the question becomes, why didn't the staff use them instead of calling the police?


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## bstone (Jun 22, 2012)

ffemt8978 said:


> So the question becomes, why didn't the staff use them instead of calling the police?



No one knows. It's curious that a NH with a secure Alzheimer's ward would have such a hard time with an Alzheimer's patient. It's even more curious why the responding officers felt that this individual would ever be able to obey their commands.


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## Tigger (Jun 22, 2012)

rmabrey said:


> Looking past the liberal sensationalism of the article, I really see nothing wrong with the Officers actions.
> 
> Now where i do see the problem, the same problem i see in many NH, as Im sure most of you do, Is staff, on a locked Alzheimer's unit, calling police for an increasingly aggressive and combative patient. Last time I check, that is generally what happens with Alzheimer's patients. If the staff cannot be expected to actually manage patients, outside of making sure they eat, then something needs to be reevaluated. You cannot pass blame on Officers which shouldn't have been there in the First place.



I agree, I was under the impression that the use of a taser was justified in the case of a person being a danger to himself, which the patient could certainly have been. If he was just not listening to the officers' instructions (as one might expect an Alzheimer's patient to do), perhaps the use of a taser was a tad heavy handed but I don't see it as dangerous either way. 

As you say, the more concerning issue is that the staff cannot handle an Alzheimer patient in a locked word...isn't that you know, their job? I've done several psych holds where the patient was being removed from the Alzheimer's locked ward to the ER for a psych evaluation, what can the ER evaluate that the facility can't? These transfers just seem like a way for the facility to get the patient off their hands for a bit.



ffemt8978 said:


> Since when do police carry leather restraints and Ativan?  If those were needed, it was up to the staff to use them instead of calling PD.



The police might not carry them, but there's a good chance that the ambulance crew with them might carry them. And as also noted, hopefully the facility does.


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## mycrofft (Jun 22, 2012)

Health facilities don't as a rule keep "big, burly" orderlies like the old days to manhandle them into a straitjacket or padded room.

If you have to quickly control a dangerous person, or if a standoff developed in the hall or dining room, and you don't want to wrestle them, or jab them with a baton, or shoot them, or spray them with pepper spray, then it's the taser.

Don't think all the pts are sweet little old ladies. (A sweet little old lady tried to stab staff at the convalescent hospital I worked briefly at).


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## bstone (Jun 22, 2012)

mycrofft said:


> Health facilities don't as a rule keep "big, burly" orderlies like the old days to manhandle them into a straitjacket or padded room.



True, but at a secure Alzheimer's facility that sort of individual is required. You can't call the police every time an Alzheimer's patient becomes combative.


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## STXmedic (Jun 22, 2012)

bstone said:


> You can't call the police every time an Alzheimer's patient becomes combative.



They'll sure as hell try, though! Tell that to the majority of Alzheimer's units!


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## usalsfyre (Jun 22, 2012)

The police got put in a bad box. They responded as they've been trained to do, I can't fault them for that. 

What should have happened was the pt got B52'd and transported to an appropriate psych facility. I put the blame squarely at the facility's feet.


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## abckidsmom (Jun 22, 2012)

> According to police reports, two officers entered Howard's room in the locked-down Alzheimer's unit and told him to enter the ambulance.



Attention:  The Peru, IN police department is staffed with a bunch of blooming idiots!

Really?  We are going to COMMAND a person with an organic brain disease to enter the ambulance?  When the cops and the ambulance had to get involved because he was out of control. 

Awesome.  

Haldol.  Ativan.  Versed.  BENADRYL, for goodness' sake!


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## ffemt8978 (Jun 22, 2012)

abckidsmom said:


> Attention:  The Peru, IN police department is staffed with a bunch of blooming idiots!
> 
> Really?  We are going to COMMAND a person with an organic brain disease to enter the ambulance?  When the cops and the ambulance had to get involved because he was out of control.
> 
> ...


usalsfyre pretty much nailed it.  PD does not have the training to deal with Alzheimer's patients, so they responded in the manner that they are trained to do.  In addition, giving verbal commands is the first step in any escalation of force tree.


usalsfyre said:


> The police got put in a bad box. They responded as they've been trained to do, I can't fault them for that.
> 
> What should have happened was the pt got B52'd and transported to an appropriate psych facility. I put the blame squarely at the facility's feet.


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## abckidsmom (Jun 22, 2012)

ffemt8978 said:


> usalsfyre pretty much nailed it.



Yeah, but even if they were backed into a bad box, they could have said, "This is not our deal.  You have him here in a medical facility, how 'bout providing him with some medicine?"

I get called all the time for things I can't help with.  That doesn't mean I do all the things I can do for them, it just means I can't help.


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## mycrofft (Jun 22, 2012)

As a hypothetical, do you think it would make the news if law enforcement treated an elderly or Azlheimers patient gently and made that work? Naw, only the adverse ones make the news.


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## bstone (Jun 22, 2012)

mycrofft said:


> As a hypothetical, do you think it would make the news if law enforcement treated an elderly or Azlheimers patient gently and made that work? Naw, only the adverse ones make the news.



Pleasant experiences with law enforcement generally do not make the news, unless something truly heroic happens. Even the mostly unpleasant experiences don't make the news.


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## glasshalfEMT (Jun 22, 2012)

Even if they have the straps and the medication, I think all health care professionals are taught some version of "scene safety" (ie, if I were a nurse, and a pt smuggled a gun into a hospital, for example, I wouldn't chance going into their room to sedate them without security at the VERY least). I wonder, though, if they HAD security.


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## nemedic (Jun 22, 2012)

As someone who is occasionally called on the be the big burly orderly type, I will chime in. While the tasering shouldn't have happened, it's the fault of the facility for not properly medicating the patient. While I admittedly don't have all the info, it appears that the police acted as one would be assumed to act. I have had a few occurrences of having especially irate populace, and in my limited sample pool, I only had to go fully "hands on" with one. Most can be worn down by just blocking the doorway until the sedation orders come in, or a hand on the shoulder and a compassionate but firm voice. The one that couldn't had a whole laundry list of rather nasty and communicable diseases, and started swinging and trying to spit on/bite staff. One tip for those that might not have restraints handy: cravats can be made n to easy restraints by tying it into a large looped overhand knot and slipping it around their wrists/ankles. If I can find video of the technique, I'll link to it.


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## mycrofft (Jun 22, 2012)

nemedic, yeah, I actually took a class i that sort of stuff when I first started with the jails. They never offered it again.


glasshalf, if someone was even thought about having brought in a firearm, the hospital would be locked down, the floor evacuated, I'm betting, and LE in force.


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## DrParasite (Jun 23, 2012)

lets look at this another way.

"Alzheimer's patient strikes officer with cane, causes skull fracture. officer in critical condition"

or

"EMT/Nurse/Officer bit by dementia patient, now infected with whatever dementia person wanted"

or

"EMT injured by diabetic with low BGL, suffers concussion and broken arm while attempting to hold down patient while medic started IV.  EMT out of work for 4 months, patient says sorry"

or

"EDP who is off his meds stabs two victims, holding a 3rd hostage.  EMTs staging, PD SWAT team staging for forcible extraction.  Friends says EDP "is a really swell guy" when he takes his meds."

you might object to the use of force on an elderly person, but when the alternative is you or another responder getting hurt, or getting hurt while trying to intervene medically, than non-lethel tazers or aerosol weapons look more appealing.


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## mycrofft (Jun 24, 2012)

or shooting, batoning, or choking the patient?


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