# LA County EMT arrested after being accused by LAPD Sergeant of assaulting patient



## Amberlamps916

LA County EMT arrested after being accused by LAPD Sergeant of assaulting patient
					

An L.A. County EMT says he was just doing his job of preventing a patient from hurting herself when the LAPD accused him of assault and took him to jail.




					www.foxla.com


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## BobBarker

Did the Sgt. want him to let the patient just jump out of a moving ambulance?
The officers should be disciplined and the department's reputation would be a lot better if they had more transparency. This guy deserves $$$, hopefully enough to constitute a punitive punishment to avoid this from happening in the future. It's the actions of bad cops like this that get good cops hurt, unfortunately. 
That female Sgt. should probably go to a physical fitness program also before hitting the streets again, looks like she couldn't help him hold her down either yet alone run after a foot pursuit suspect without being in the back of the ambulance herself


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## RocketMedic

Agreed


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## CCCSD

BobBarker said:


> Did the Sgt. want him to let the patient just jump out of a moving ambulance?
> The officers should be disciplined and the department's reputation would be a lot better if they had more transparency. This guy deserves $$$, hopefully enough to constitute a punitive punishment to avoid this from happening in the future. It's the actions of bad cops like this that get good cops hurt, unfortunately.
> That female Sgt. should probably go to a physical fitness program also before hitting the streets again, looks like she couldn't help him hold her down either yet alone run after a foot pursuit suspect without being in the back of the ambulance herself




So...ALL EMS workers are in perfect shape. Everyone believes one side of a story before the facts are in. The news NEVER gets half the story...right?


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## BobBarker

CCCSD said:


> So...ALL EMS workers are in perfect shape. Everyone believes one side of a story before the facts are in. The news NEVER gets half the story...right?


Where did I say they are all in perfect shape? If after only hours of holding him they looked at the body camera footage and determined no crime was committed and chalked it up as a "misunderstanding", that's a big indication of what happened. Especially when the person reporting the "assault" is a Sgt who has more experience and education then a normal officer. Normally an investigation takes a lot longer than a couple hours to figure out and it would be the DA telling you there is insufficient evidence to warrant a charge.
And how is the news supposed to get the other side of the story when LAPD says they don't comment? LOL. If LAPD commented, believe me, that **** would have been in the story.


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## Jim37F

Oh yeah, all my buddies still at McCormick are _pissed _right now, and I'm certainly less than happy myself... I'm firmly of the opinion the LAPD at a bare minimum needs to make a formal, public apology to both the EMT and McCormick as a whole...

What I'm still confused about is why there was an LAPD officer (Sergeant whatever) riding in on a emergent seizure call, vs whatever fire medic. I know McCormick took over more territory after i left, but none of McCormick jurisdiction overlaps LAPD jurisdiction so I'm confused about how the whole situation happened in the first place...


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## DesertMedic66

Jim37F said:


> Oh yeah, all my buddies still at McCormick are _pissed _right now, and I'm certainly less than happy myself... I'm firmly of the opinion the LAPD at a bare minimum needs to make a formal, public apology to both the EMT and McCormick as a whole...
> 
> What I'm still confused about is why there was an LAPD officer (Sergeant whatever) riding in on a emergent seizure call, vs whatever fire medic. I know McCormick took over more territory after i left, but none of McCormick jurisdiction overlaps LAPD jurisdiction so I'm confused about how the whole situation happened in the first place...


The patient was a female sexual assault patient who had a seizure. So the officer probably rode in because 1. She was a female and 2. Because there was a reported crime.


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## Amberlamps916

Jim37F said:


> Oh yeah, all my buddies still at McCormick are _pissed _right now, and I'm certainly less than happy myself... I'm firmly of the opinion the LAPD at a bare minimum needs to make a formal, public apology to both the EMT and McCormick as a whole...
> 
> What I'm still confused about is why there was an LAPD officer (Sergeant whatever) riding in on a emergent seizure call, vs whatever fire medic. I know McCormick took over more territory after i left, but none of McCormick jurisdiction overlaps LAPD jurisdiction so I'm confused about how the whole situation happened in the first place...



I've been trying to figure that out as well.


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## Jim37F

DesertMedic66 said:


> The patient was a female sexual assault patient who had a seizure. So the officer probably rode in because 1. She was a female and 2. Because there was a reported crime.


Yeah but pretty much everywhere its LAPD jurisdiction for the sexual assault patient is also LAFDs jurisdiction for ambulance response is what I mean

I've def had plenty of LASD Deputies ride in on various cases, but never LAPD


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## DesertMedic66

Jim37F said:


> Yeah but pretty much everywhere its LAPD jurisdiction for the sexual assault patient is also LAFDs jurisdiction for ambulance response is what I mean
> 
> I've def had plenty of LASD Deputies ride in on various cases, but never LAPD


Without knowing much about the system is it possible that they were running a mutual aid for LAFD as a closer ambulance or something along those lines?


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## Jim37F

Talking to a buddy of mine, sounds more like LAPD was in Countys area for reasons? They said LACoFD BLS'd the call in West Hollywood, which is a County Sheriffs area, but is a small "island" surrounded by LA City  (the McCormick WeHo station is technically in LA City limits) , but still, there's no shortage of Deputies in WeHo either, so idk, but makes slightly more sense that the cops were mixing each other's areas up, LAFD and LACoFD can get pretty territorial with eachother over their areas lol (though it seems they're happy enough to both jump on the brush fires when it's a border area)


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## Amberlamps916

Apparently the EMT was fired by the ambulance company.

Source: From one of his partners on a thread on R/EMS regarding this incident.


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## CALEMT

Just here for the comments... that is all.


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## GMCmedic

Addrobo said:


> Apparently the EMT was fired by the ambulance company.
> 
> Source: From one of his partners on a thread on R/EMS regarding this incident.


Just curious, was he fire for the incident, or an unapproved interview in a company uniform (seen that one used as a catch all).


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## E tank

This one's easy..."more to the story"...


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## Amberlamps916

GMCmedic said:


> Just curious, was he fire for the incident, or an unapproved interview in a company uniform (seen that one used as a catch all).


 
I'm not sure but I'd definitely agree with that being the most likely cause.


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## DrParasite

ok, something doesn't add up.... ok, many things don't add up

1) why was the EMT fired from the ambulance company?  
2) how is an arrest, with the resulting charges being dropped a "personnel matter" for the LAPD?
3) why is the LAPD officer threatening to taze an EMT?
4) Why wasn't the LAPD Sgt trying to prevent the patient from jumping out of the moving ambulance?
5) if the patient was actively seizing, why was not a paramedic called?
6) why wasn't a mccormick supervisor requested to the scene to diffuse this situation?

Based solely on the news reporting (and I'm sure there is much more to this story), it would appear that the EMT might have a valid civil suit against the LAPD. especially for damages to his career that he suffered as a result of this false imprisonment.  There has to be more to this story, but based on the reported facts, it looks bad for the LAPD.


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## CCCSD

What requirement exists for an Officer to stop the patient from jumping out of the rig?


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## PotatoMedic

CCCSD said:


> What requirement exists for an Officer to stop the patient from jumping out of the rig?


The same ones that require them to prevent a person from jumping off a bridge.  Least that is my assumption.


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## Jim37F

Well, according to one of my buddies at McCormick, he's not fired, though on some type of leave


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## Amberlamps916

Is McCormick getting the AMR combative patient training?


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## DesertMedic66

Addrobo said:


> Is McCormick getting the AMR combative patient training?


AMR isn’t even getting the combative patient training.


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## Amberlamps916

DesertMedic66 said:


> AMR isn’t even getting the combative patient training.



Santa Barbara just did, and so did many other divisions. It's something they implemented after the Portland stabbing. I'm not sure why everybody isn't doing it at the same time.


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## StCEMT

I'm glad our cops aren't complete twats. Dare any of them to come in my truck and tell me how to run my ****.


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## CALEMT

StCEMT said:


> Dare any of them to come in my truck and tell me how to run my ****.



Don't know how it is for you out east, but at the end of the day the the department having jurisdiction over the scene is the law enforcement agency.


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## RedBlanketRunner

Salient: *Patient unstrapped herself. Pulled the patient back onto the gurney. (Officer) Called for back up. *
As described in the video, he did what any functional medic would do. Whole lot of blanks need to be filled in but the immediate one I'm wondering about is why the officer didn't move to assist him.

But don't start a video with the medic stating "I feared for my life". That's slanting/predisposing the incident for the audience. Melodrama, not factual objective new reporting.

But as lead for a few years on a unit, I consider actions taken by an attendant in the back of the ambulance that are within the scope of the level of training in regards to restraint of the patient to be appropriate barring gross negligence. The back of a unit is a dangerous place that you DO NOT WANT to turn into a combat zone. IE keeping a patient in place on the gurney is within scope of basic patient transport of any EMT.


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## StCEMT

CALEMT said:


> Don't know how it is for you out east, but at the end of the day the the department having jurisdiction over the scene is the law enforcement agency.


The dynamic is probably different since we aren't a huge city, especially compared to LA. We know and recognize most FD/PD/EMS at the very least and often have a lot of friends throughout all the stations and preceincts. That is true across all services. Since we all work with the same people so much, we're good about staying in our respective lanes and working as a team because a lot of us of friends outside of work.

As far as my rules go, the highest credentialed provider calls the shots for any person deemed a patient. The only person that can mess with my call is a physician who can prove to me that they're a doc. Otherwise, I have the final say.

My rules when stuff overlaps like a fire with occupants, tech rescue, medical calls, or police stand by.

Authority for management of the emergency scene, exclusive of medical control over the patient, will rest with the appropriate on scene public safety officials (i.e.police, fire, rescue).

So when it comes to a medical call where I don't need PD? I can and will tell them to **** right off.


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## CCCSD

So you actually tell them to “**** right off”. Really? 
Hows that working for you.


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## CCCSD

StCEMT said:


> I'm glad our cops aren't complete twats. Dare any of them to come in my truck and tell me how to run my ****.



Yeah... They can and will.


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## RedBlanketRunner

Why do I detect the rank stench of the same old same old cop vs FD/EMS?


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## BobBarker

RedBlanketRunner said:


> Salient: *Patient unstrapped herself. Pulled the patient back onto the gurney. (Officer) Called for back up. *
> As described in the video, he did what any functional medic would do. Whole lot of blanks need to be filled in but the immediate one I'm wondering about is why the officer didn't move to assist him.
> 
> But don't start a video with the medic stating "I feared for my life". That's slanting/predisposing the incident for the audience. Melodrama, not factual objective new reporting.
> 
> But as lead for a few years on a unit, I consider actions taken by an attendant in the back of the ambulance that are within the scope of the level of training in regards to restraint of the patient to be appropriate barring gross negligence. The back of a unit is a dangerous place that you DO NOT WANT to turn into a combat zone. IE keeping a patient in place on the gurney is within scope of basic patient transport of any EMT.


Of course his lawyer is going to tell him to be a little more exciting to create a bigger case however at the very least this guy's perception of law enforcement, who he works with almost daily, will be changed. Imagine having 5 police officers surrounding you with their taser(s) out and telling you to get the **** on the ground or else in the middle of a medical emergency, getting cuffed, sent to jail and losing one of your jobs. My gut is he gets $50k and LAPD admits no wrongdoing.


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## StCEMT

CCCSD said:


> Yeah... They can and will.


They can and they'll get shown the door.


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## StCEMT

CCCSD said:


> So you actually tell them to “**** right off”. Really?
> Hows that working for you.


Yeah I would. I've told a supervisor to get off a scene and I've done the same with a fire fighter for yelling at a student of mine. Well....I'm still here all these years later and I got my job done, so just fine I reckon.


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## CALEMT

StCEMT said:


> So when it comes to a medical call where I don't need PD? I can and will tell them to **** right off.



Oh... you're one of those people... building a good relationship between allied agencies I see... and I thought me being the fire medic I was supposed to be the designated Mr. Personality. 

Does PD dictate my medical care on scene? No. I've built relationships with no only LE but AMR as well. Will PD dictate where the pt will go? Sometimes yes... unless my protocol on pt transportation supersedes where they want them to go I politely inform them on what my protocol states. I don't tell them to **** right off.


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## CCCSD

StCEMT said:


> They can and they'll get shown the door.



Got news for you: there are times where LE CAN and WILL tell you what to do, same as FD.

You seem to have the ParaGod syndrome. Everything you do, WILL come back and bite you. Not a good way to do things. But...some EMTs just have to learn the hard way


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## CCCSD

StCEMT said:


> Yeah I would. I've told a supervisor to get off a scene and I've done the same with a fire fighter for yelling at a student of mine. Well....I'm still here all these years later and I got my job done, so just fine I reckon.



Ah. So you‘ve NOT actually told LE to “**** right off”.
Just because you are still employed does not mean all is well.


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## StCEMT

CALEMT said:


> Oh... you're one of those people... building a good relationship between allied agencies I see... and I thought me being the fire medic I was supposed to be the designated Mr. Personality.
> 
> Does PD dictate my medical care on scene? No. I've built relationships with no only LE but AMR as well. Will PD dictate where the pt will go? Sometimes yes... unless my protocol on pt transportation supersedes where they want them to go I politely inform them on what my protocol states. I don't tell them to **** right off.


When it comes to a certain threshold such as anyone (not just PD) actually stopping me from doing my job? Yeah, I am. Most of my shift wouldn't tolerate that from anyone nor mince words about it. Specific to this, It's never an issue because we know pretty much all of them here to some degree. We defer to them when appropriate and vice versa. I've seen 8 different officers tonight alone and guess what? I know/recognize them all and we went about our things like we always have for years. There isn't a bad working relationship because there are many here that I talk to and hang out with outside of work.


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## StCEMT

CCCSD said:


> Got news for you: there are times where LE CAN and WILL tell you what to do, same as FD.
> 
> You seem to have the ParaGod syndrome. Everything you do, WILL come back and bite you. Not a good way to do things. But...some EMTs just have to learn the hard way


Yes, and when it's their time to do so I do what they need. Just as my SOG states.

It's not paragod. I don't let other people dictate my job when the liability for that patient falls on me and my name is the one that will take the brunt of any liability should something go wrong. 


CCCSD said:


> Ah. So you‘ve NOT actually told LE to “**** right off”.
> Just because you are still employed does not mean all is well.


No, because ours let me do my job as I need just like I let them do theirs. None of us get in the way with the exception of poor parking choices.


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## DrParasite

StCEMT said:


> So when it comes to a medical call where I don't need PD? I can and will tell them to **** right off.


BS flag thrown.  

you have a violent patient, or combative OD, and you just tell the PD to **** right off?  I don't buy it, not for a second.  In fact, I've love to hear from your agency leadership that they would approve of you telling a cop to **** off or what their thoughts on your employment status would be if you did that.

You want to cancel them before they get there, tell them they aren't needed, sure, but if they are there and you tell them to **** off, I am pretty sure your boss will want to have a chat with you about your behavior.

I'm pretty sure if you were in the situation that the mccormick EMT, and you have 5 cops surrounding you (one aiming a taser at you), with the Sgt wanting you to be arrested for assault, you'll end up in handcuffs one way or another.


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## DrParasite

RedBlanketRunner said:


> But don't start a video with the medic stating "I feared for my life". That's slanting/predisposing the incident for the audience. Melodrama, not factual objective new reporting.


He wasn't fearing for his life because the patient got off the stretcher; it was because he was a black man in LA, where 5 cops were surrounding him, one with a taser aimed at him, and the Sgt wanting him arrested for doing his job.


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## DrParasite

CCCSD said:


> Yeah... They can and will.


Most cops don't know a think about EMS; and they don't want to know.  they know law enforcement stuff.  Even those that are or were EMTs or paramedics know that their job is to law enforcement stuff, not patient care.  One of my FD's volunteers works full time as a city police officer, and part time as a paramedic in another county; but when the Ambulance shows up, he does his job as a LEO, and lets EMS do their job.

I've had very few conflicts with officers on scene; the VAST majority of the time, if i need help, they will do exactly what I say, because it's in the patient's best interest.  Now if there is a law enforcement matter, that's their domain; I don't tell them how to enforce laws, and they don't tell me how to treat my patient.

The Sgt in this example appears to have been wrong on multiple factors.  She made an accusation that wasn't supported by the facts, she directed her subordinates to falsely imprison the EMT, she unnecessarily escalated the situation, and she failed to do her job, by working to prevent the patient from jumping out of a moving ambulance.   I hope she and the department get sued, and have to pay millions.


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## Tigger

CCCSD said:


> Got news for you: there are times where LE CAN and WILL tell you what to do, same as FD.
> 
> You seem to have the ParaGod syndrome. Everything you do, WILL come back and bite you. Not a good way to do things. But...some EMTs just have to learn the hard way


What is the law enforcement equivalent of paragod? 

You can jump up and down and puff your chest out about how law enforcement has the final say and it only serves to make you look more foolish. There are certainly times when the attending EMS provider has final say in patient care and disposition and that is indisputable. Do I work hard to make sure that my decisions are in line with those of law enforcement? You bet. But if law enforcement activity is going to pose a detriment to patient care, that's where the line is. Being a cop does not give you the right to detract from someone's care. 

Generally, we aren't going to delay transport for investigative work, we aren't going to a hospital that's inappropriate for the patient's condition because that's what the officer wants, and we certainly are not going to let non-medically trained LEOs make poor medical decisions on the patient's behalf, custody status notwithstanding. 

Not to mention, the majority of my interactions start with a call for them. We fix each other's problems and the department's awesome relationship with the multitude of law agencies here is the result of that.


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## StCEMT

DrParasite said:


> BS flag thrown.
> 
> you have a violent patient, or combative OD, and you just tell the PD to **** right off?  I don't buy it, not for a second.  In fact, I've love to hear from your agency leadership that they would approve of you telling a cop to **** off or what their thoughts on your employment status would be if you did that.
> 
> You want to cancel them before they get there, tell them they aren't needed, sure, but if they are there and you tell them to **** off, I am pretty sure your boss will want to have a chat with you about your behavior.
> 
> I'm pretty sure if you were in the situation that the mccormick EMT, and you have 5 cops surrounding you (one aiming a taser at you), with the Sgt wanting you to be arrested for assault, you'll end up in handcuffs one way or another.


If someone is a hindrance and not a help, yes, I have and would tell them to leave.

These types of things don't happen because I've spent years building my bridges where I work. But at the end of the day I still draw lines and am not bashful about holding to them. Like I said, my name is the one liable for that patient and I'm not letting someone else put me in a position for a problem to arise. I've made mistakes and I'll own them every time, but they won't be due to someone else. At the end of the day, you can think what you want. Doesn't matter to me, it's all a bunch of what ifs anyway and means next to nothing to anyone.


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## johnrsemt

I have never had an officer try to tell me how to do my job, and I have had quite a few ride in with me due to a patient being under arrest.  I have even had a K-9 ride in with me (Patient was the politest, most well behaved person I ever saw after the dog got in the truck).
I have had quite a few prison guards try to tell me how to treat my patients/their prisoners.


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## Traumaholic

Well does PD know what we have to do sometimes in extreme conditions? Granted LA county is a different place from where I am but I have never been question or criticized for securing a patient if they pose a threat to themselves. IE: SI or H.I


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## Froooog

Amberlamps916 said:


> LA County EMT arrested after being accused by LAPD Sergeant of assaulting patient
> 
> 
> An L.A. County EMT says he was just doing his job of preventing a patient from hurting herself when the LAPD accused him of assault and took him to jail.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.foxla.com


I think this is a disgusting act. The person who represents the law should not do this. I hope he gets the punishment he deserves. Recently I witnessed similar circumstances when a policeman attacked a man. The man asked if they could find out who was calling from 866*******, because of this his arm was broken. The police reacted very aggressively to a common human request. This act largely reflects the incompetence of law enforcement agencies. Based on this, you need to be careful and attentive.


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## CCCSD

Froooog said:


> I think this is a disgusting act. The person who represents the law should not do this. I hope he gets the punishment he deserves. Recently I witnessed similar circumstances when a policeman attacked a man. The man asked if they could find out who was calling from 866*******, because of this his arm was broken. The police reacted very aggressively to a common human request. This act largely reflects the incompetence of law enforcement agencies. Based on this, you need to be careful and attentive.



Based on your inability to post factual information, you need to not make this your first and epically stupid, post.


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## ffemt8978

Closed for useless bump


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