# Pat Downs



## EMT012 (Jun 17, 2010)

What's everyones view on Outer Pocket/Clothing 'Pat Downs' on patients suspected of having needles or sharp objects on them?

I know that LEO's are the ones who can legally pull things out of peoples pockets, I'm not talking about any drastic 'Pat Downs' just precautions prior to having to lift someone either out of a house, up a hill/down a hill, or out of a car and onto a stretcher...


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## elnjaime (Jun 17, 2010)

Wow, don't think i'd like to pat anything and find out the hard way they had a needle. is that allowed in WA?


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## EMT012 (Jun 17, 2010)

elnjaime said:


> Wow, don't think i'd like to pat anything and find out the hard way they had a needle. is that allowed in WA?



It's a grey area but it is allowed, provided you #1 preferably have an LEO on scene or supervisor to observe you doing so, or have an LEO officer perform it. #2 have a reasonable cause for doing so, (I.E. known drug addict, etc)

This topic is actually coming off a needlestick incident we had a week ago... Only this wasn't a drug addict (at least we don't think so), it was a diabetic and he had a syringe on him, (were still not quite sure). I wasn't there so I couldn't tell ya what the blood sugar level was or any vitals. I guess when the EMT went to pick him up (underarm and leg carry) he got needle struck. I haven't heard any outcomes of the needlestick (not sure if anything came back positive/negative) but just a curious and concerning topic to bring up.


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## Shishkabob (Jun 17, 2010)

Just as an FYI, non-LEO personnel are NOT bound by the same standards of reasonable suspicion / probable cause when it comes to searches and seizures as cops are.


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## EMT012 (Jun 17, 2010)

Linuss said:


> Just as an FYI, non-LEO personnel are NOT bound by the same standards of reasonable suspicion / probable cause when it comes to searches and seizures as cops are.



No, however that example I used above is my agencies 'procedure'... more or less. 

I'm talking more or so about liability and safety issues. The what 'if' and 'when' and 'how' and 'why' questions, when it comes to probable needlesticks and precautions.


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## Aidey (Jun 17, 2010)

In the case of EMS "patting down" someone we aren't searching them for evidence or anything like that so I'm not sure what kind of legal issues there would be. The two situations I've seen (and done it) in are looking for ID/medical info and looking for weapons. In those cases the pt is generally unconscious, or significantly altered and there is always a witness. Same as if we are looking around for medications at someone's house or going through a bag. 

If the pt is conscious we ask them to empty their own pockets. If the pt is combative PD does it. For what it is worth, I've seen LEOs overlook small stuff they find when the pt is only being searched as a safety issue, and not as a suspected criminal.


In the situation posed by the OP, I could see that happening to anyone really. I have to admit I would not expect a diabetic to be carrying an uncapped needle. A needle yes, but not uncapped.


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## Shishkabob (Jun 17, 2010)

EMT012 said:


> No, however that example I used above is my agencies 'procedure'... more or less.
> 
> I'm talking more or so about liability and safety issues. The what 'if' and 'when' and 'how' and 'why' questions, when it comes to probable needlesticks and precautions.




"No" what?  I already told you--- Non-Law Enforcement people are not subject to the same requirements to search someone as police are, hence what liability?


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## JPINFV (Jun 17, 2010)

Aidey said:


> In the case of EMS "patting down" someone we aren't searching them for evidence



To be fair, a police pat down (Terry search) isn't done to look for evidence and is very limited in nature. Now if a police officer finds something, then they aren't required to over look it, but a Terry search isn't anything more than a quick look for weapons. 



Linuss said:


> "No" what?  I already told you--- Non-Law Enforcement people are not subject to the same requirements to search someone as police are, hence what liability?



Theft. Battery if done against the patient's refusal. If the patient is A/Ox4 and competent, what right do you have to take any item off of me? If I tell a paramedic that they can't do a pat down on me, then he has no choice. You can't, however, refuse a Terry search from a police officer. Additionally, while we are not subject to the same restrictions, we aren't subject to the same powers either.


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## EMT012 (Jun 17, 2010)

Linuss said:


> "No" what?  I already told you--- Non-Law Enforcement people are not subject to the same requirements to search someone as police are, hence what liability?



No... As in EMS are NOT subject to LEO standards of Search. However the liability is in several things as JPINFV mentioned, battery (unwanted touching), sexual harrasment claims, theft possibilities, assults, etc. The 'Pat down' I'm referring to usually is for EMS safety such as making sure a pt does not have a needle in their pockets, or a knife prior to picking them up on to a stretcher or removing them from a dangerous scene (as I mentioned above) DO NOT forget that most drug addicts are already paranoid enough, so having a EMS provider search (when they are conscious) could spell out trouble, even when it's for EMS safety, OR looking at an unconscious pt for any medical ID (in our area LEO's have to be present). What I was referring to was merely safety searches for EMS, not the powers we do or do not have as opposed to LEO's.

Sorry I should've been more clearer.

Also: The patient in this case was conscious and talking, I'm not sure if a 'Pat Down' was done, but maybe it could've prevented a needlestick?


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## the_negro_puppy (Jun 17, 2010)

If you are suspicious and the pt refuses a pat down, refuse to treat them, its that simple. Your safety comes first and if you have reason to believe you may be endangered dont touch them. It never usually comes to that but its good to just ask politely if they might have any sharps on them etc, most of the time they know you want to help them and will cooperate.


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## medicdan (Jun 17, 2010)

I have certainly done it before... Any psychiatric patient (or EDP) I take from facility to facility, that has a history of SI or HI with weapons. I do a quick search for pills, weapons, stowaways, etc. Remember, I am in the back of a small space (van), and no idea what they are carrying. 
Whenever I do a prisoner transport (with a CO in the back of the truck, especially hospital to prison ward), I ask the officers to do a quick pat down. I can never tell when they were last searched, what comb they sharpened, etc. 
It's a personal safety kind of thing. I always do it in the presence of my partner, and talk through my intentions and the steps to what I'm doing...


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## exodus (Jun 17, 2010)

For every psych pt:
"Can you turn your pockets inside out and lift up your pant legs?" That's adequate for me since I restrain all my psych pt's before getting in the back of the rig.


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## medicdan (Jun 17, 2010)

exodus said:


> For every psych pt:
> "Can you turn your pockets inside out and lift up your pant legs?" That's adequate for me since I restrain all my psych pt's before getting in the back of the rig.


You restrain ALL of your psych patients?


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## exodus (Jun 17, 2010)

emt.dan said:


> You restrain ALL of your psych patients?



Well, all 5150's and danger to self / other conservator's. Company policy.


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## Shishkabob (Jun 17, 2010)

EMT012 said:


> However the liability is in several things as JPINFV mentioned,



/me thinks you need to look up the word "liability".  




> If I tell a paramedic that they can't do a pat down on me, then he has no choice



I'd LOVE to see a patient differentiate between a 'pat down' and my physical assessment, and then prove it in court.  Not going to happen.  If during your assessment you find something that might be a weapon (which is ALL a "pat down" is intended to do) then hey, call PD. 


Now, if they are unconscious, and you are unable to 'search' for medical identification as per what you said, that's just stupid.

Man, when I'm on a call and the person is unconscious, I'm having someone go through their wallet, their purse, their entire body, their fridge, their drug cabinet, etc etc.


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## JPINFV (Jun 17, 2010)

Linuss said:


> /me thinks you need to look up the word "liability".


Are you talking criminal liability or civil liability?



> I'd LOVE to see a patient differentiate between a 'pat down' and my physical assessment, and then prove it in court.  Not going to happen.  If during your assessment you find something that might be a weapon (which is ALL a "pat down" is intended to do) then hey, call PD.


Then you "pat down" all patients, hence making this discussion redundant.


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## JPINFV (Jun 17, 2010)

exodus said:


> Well, all 5150's and danger to self / other conservator's. Company policy.



Ah, I love the paranoia that companies have over patients with psychiatric disorders.


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## Shishkabob (Jun 17, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Then you "pat down" all patients, hence making this discussion redundant.



Exactly.

If you have permission to assess, than the argument is pointless, as they already gave you permission to touch them.

If you DON'T have permission to assess, than the argument is pointless as well, as you wont be touching the patient to BE injured in some way.


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## EMT012 (Jun 17, 2010)

Linuss said:


> /me thinks you need to look up the word "liability".
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## fortsmithman (Jun 17, 2010)

Linuss said:


> /me thinks you need to look up the word "liability".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If it's a at down we may get in trouble but if we're doing a head to toe assessment then OK.  A while back in Edmonton Alberta a pt pulled a pistol while in the back of the ambulance and all EMS personnel left the rig quickly.


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## CAOX3 (Jun 18, 2010)

EMT012 said:


> What's everyones view on Outer Pocket/Clothing 'Pat Downs' on patients suspected of having needles or sharp objects on them?
> 
> I know that LEO's are the ones who can legally pull things out of peoples pockets, I'm not talking about any drastic 'Pat Downs' just precautions prior to having to lift someone either out of a house, up a hill/down a hill, or out of a car and onto a stretcher...



Unconscious patients with suspected drug use/overdose should get their pockets cut. 

We dont reach in anyones pockets. 

Police can pat down the conscious ones or they may cut them too if deemed neccesary.


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## ZVNEMT (Jun 18, 2010)

Any pt not coming from a nursing home, we'll flag down security at the hospital to use the wand. If i have to search pockets for ID i use my shears as a probe, if needed I'll just cut the pocket open.


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## Trayos (Jun 18, 2010)

Could cutting the pockets be covered under the same standards as removing other articles of clothing? It seems like the best option at this point, at least to me,


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## DrParasite (Jun 19, 2010)

the_negro_puppy said:


> If you are suspicious and the pt refuses a pat down, refuse to treat them, its that simple. Your safety comes first and if you have reason to believe you may be endangered dont touch them. It never usually comes to that but its good to just ask politely if they might have any sharps on them etc, most of the time they know you want to help them and will cooperate.


+1.  if they don't want you to check them for weapons, then they obviously don't need an ambulance.  it's either an RMA by action or unsafe scene your call.  lets PD know to call you back when they get on scene and the patient has been properly searched.


CAOX3 said:


> Unconscious patients with suspected drug use/overdose should get their pockets cut.


very simple thing, but it never even occurred to me to do this.  good call!


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## JPINFV (Jun 19, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> +1.  if they don't want you to check them for weapons, then they obviously don't need an ambulance.  it's either an RMA by action or unsafe scene your call.  lets PD know to call you back when they get on scene and the patient has been properly searched.




I'm sorry, I didn't realize that I surrendered my constitutional protection against unreasonable search and seizure because I'm having a medical emergency. You better have a better reason than 'because I wanted to' if you want to pull the scene safety card.


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## ah2388 (Jun 19, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> I'm sorry, I didn't realize that I surrendered my constitutional protection against unreasonable search and seizure because I'm having a medical emergency. You better have a better reason than 'because I wanted to' if you want to pull the scene safety card.



i understand the argument that paranoia is what creates the majority of issues related to this type of thing, but with that being said...would you agree that EMS providers are kind of between a rock and a hard place.  Ensuring personal safety without violating the rights of patients.  And truthfully, in theory "scene safety" is probably over drilled into peoples heads the majority of the time, but in practice..safety of the provider must be the first priority on scene.


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## AlphaButch (Jun 19, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> I'm sorry, I didn't realize that I surrendered my constitutional protection against unreasonable search and seizure because I'm having a medical emergency. You better have a better reason than 'because I wanted to' if you want to pull the scene safety card.



I don't find it unreasonable to ensure that a pt has no sharps, weapons, etc. before treating them. If they won't consent, then they don't get treated. Part of treating a patient is removing them from harm.

So other than scene safety.. there's "removing clothing in order to do a proper assessment", "removing harmful or dangerous objects/substances which may result in self-injury or injury to others", "searching a pt for information relevant to the emergency", etc.

Always have a witness and never be alone with a patient while the risk of a behavioral emergency is present.


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## Shishkabob (Jun 19, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> I'm sorry, I didn't realize that I surrendered my constitutional protection against unreasonable search and seizure because I'm having a medical emergency. You better have a better reason than 'because I wanted to' if you want to pull the scene safety card.



Civilians are not bound by the 4th amendment >_<


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## JPINFV (Jun 19, 2010)

ah2388 said:


> i understand the argument that paranoia is what creates the majority of issues related to this type of thing, but with that being said...would you agree that EMS providers are kind of between a rock and a hard place.  Ensuring personal safety without violating the rights of patients.  And truthfully, in theory "scene safety" is probably over drilled into peoples heads the majority of the time, but in practice..safety of the provider must be the first priority on scene.




Yes, it's a rock and a hard place with the paranoia of EMS providers. Reference any of the "EMS called to treat someone with a CCW" threads because the mentality of many providers is "gun=police or bad guy."


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## JPINFV (Jun 19, 2010)

Linuss said:


> Civilians are not bound by the 4th amendment >_<



Except:

1. The text of the 4th Amendment doesn't limit it to law enforcement.

2. In all most all cases 911 services is either a municipal service (be it 3rd government or EMS based fire suppression) or a contracted service. 

3. Without some sort of reasonable suspicion that the patient is both carrying something dangerous and is dangerous (you don't need a knife or a gun to be dangerous. Also, are we separating, say, a butterfly knife and a pocket knife?), denying care could easily fall under abandonment.


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## DrParasite (Jun 19, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> I'm sorry, I didn't realize that I surrendered my constitutional protection against unreasonable search and seizure because I'm having a medical emergency. You better have a better reason than 'because I wanted to' if you want to pull the scene safety card.


because my safety comes first?  I don't plan on using anything I find in your pockets against you in a court of law.  but I would rather find it and have it thrown out when you get arrested than not find it and have it used against me in the back of the ambulance.  and remember, I am not the cops, so search and seizure rules don't apply the same way (look at school searches for a comparable example).


JPINFV said:


> Except:
> 
> 1. The text of the 4th Amendment doesn't limit it to law enforcement.


actually, the 4th amendment is completely about law enforcement and the courts.  Just like your mother can search your room and use what she finds against you (and the 4th amendment won't save you), or your boss can search your cubicle, as long as a LEO doesn't do the search, for the purposes of using it against you in a court of law, you should be ok.


JPINFV said:


> 2. In all most all cases 911 services is either a municipal service (be it 3rd government or EMS based fire suppression) or a contracted service.


WRONG.  volunteer EMS systems are often independent from the government, or hospital based.  and if they are contracted, they aren't part of the government at all.  so yeah, either way, they aren't law enforcement. 


JPINFV said:


> 3. Without some sort of reasonable suspicion that the patient is both carrying something dangerous and is dangerous (you don't need a knife or a gun to be dangerous. Also, are we separating, say, a butterfly knife and a pocket knife?), denying care could easily fall under abandonment.


you ever been hit in the head by grandma's cane?  damn thing can hurt.  are you saying a pocket knife isn't dangerous?  I have a pocket knife with a locking blade, which is about 4 inches long while closed and about 8 while open (yeah, it's pretty big).  I am pretty sure I can do quite a bit of damage if i sucker stabbed you.  and If I slip it into the back pocket of my jeans, you won't even know I have it.

and you never, ever deny anyone care.  that is abandonment.  however, if you leave an unsafe scene, and wait to PD to arrive and secure it, well, that isn't abandonment.  now if he says "you ain't checking me for anything dangerous" doesn't that raise a flag in your brain?  what is he hiding?  maybe something to hurt you?  so you clear the scene until PD arrives to ensure it is safe.  not really rocket science.


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## JPINFV (Jun 19, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> because my safety comes first?  I don't plan on using anything I find in your pockets against you in a court of law.  but I would rather find it and have it thrown out when you get arrested than not find it and have it used against me in the back of the ambulance.  and remember, I am not the cops, so search and seizure rules don't apply the same way (look at school searches for a comparable example).


So if I have a pocket knife, you're going to throw it out? There are objects that are legal to have that can be considered "dangerous," however the presence of a "dangerous" object doesn't mean it can be thrown out or that it should be taken away. 



> actually, the 4th amendment is completely about law enforcement and the courts.  Just like your mother can search your room and use what she finds against you (and the 4th amendment won't save you), or your boss can search your cubicle, as long as a LEO doesn't do the search, for the purposes of using it against you in a court of law, you should be ok.


Depends. As a child, she is the actual "owner" of everything. If I am an adult in a renter situation, then she doens't have a right to enter my room as a land lord. Granted, this ignores the entire family member vs complete stranger going through my things difference. 



> WRONG.  volunteer EMS systems are often independent from the government, or hospital based.  and if they are contracted, they aren't part of the government at all.  so yeah, either way, they aren't law enforcement.
> you ever been hit in the head by grandma's cane?  damn thing can hurt.  are you saying a pocket knife isn't dangerous?  I have a pocket knife with a locking blade, which is about 4 inches long while closed and about 8 while open (yeah, it's pretty big).  I am pretty sure I can do quite a bit of damage if i sucker stabbed you.  and If I slip it into the back pocket of my jeans, you won't even know I have it.


I'm saying that I wouldn't confiscate a pocket knife or granny's cane for the sole reason that they have it. However I'm not so paranoid to think that everyone with a cane or a pocket knife are going to stab me or bonk me over the head. If the volunteer ambulance is dispatched by means of the 911 system, then it is acting as a government service. 




> and you never, ever deny anyone care.  that is abandonment.  however, if you leave an unsafe scene, and wait to PD to arrive and secure it, well, that isn't abandonment.  now if he says "you ain't checking me for anything dangerous" doesn't that raise a flag in your brain?  what is he hiding?  maybe something to hurt you?  so you clear the scene until PD arrives to ensure it is safe.  not really rocket science.



Depends on the situation. Maybe I just don't want you feeling me up because you're paranoid that I might be carrying a legal tool and if you deny care because of some unreasonable paranoia, you can bet that that would be considered abandonment. Sorry, but I can just see plenty of people here refusing to care for, say, a construction worker because they have a box cutter unless police are on scene. Yes, I think that a jury would find that sort of refusal to provide care unreasonable.


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## AlphaButch (Jun 19, 2010)

If a person is presenting with ALOC, or any signs of becoming a hazard to myself or others (this includes agitation, prior hx of violence, etc) or becoming a behavioral patient, then a search is justified and related to the scope of why I was called on scene.

If I ask someone if they could "bunny ear" their pockets so I don't get an unwanted surprise and they deny the request, they have just denied treatment as I will not assess them without ensuring my own safety. They can sign a refusal and I'll be on my way, or I will wait for PD to secure the scene.

The construction guy with a box cutter..yep, he's giving it up (he can get it back later at the hospital or after I've left).

Granny's cane? she won't need it, if she needs to be moved, we'll move her. If she wants it brought with us, I have no issue with putting it and/or any other belongings (within reason) together in a bag and tossing it in the truck. 

I understand that you may be playing devil's advocate on this one.  Here's an example of an unreasonable search;

If I get on scene and the patient does not present with ALOC, or any signs of becoming a hazard to myself or others (this includes agitation, prior hx of violence, etc) or becoming a behavioral patient; If a patient does not have any injuries or complaints which require assessment or treatment, or refuses treatment; and anyone (LEO, parent, etc) asks for me to search a pt (reason regardless), then it may be construed as an illegal search as the search did not meet justification within my scope of treatment. If I am given consent by local LEOs (the person is in their custody), they can pat them down first and get stuck, then I'll assess and treat.


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## JPINFV (Jun 19, 2010)

Let's take this to the extreme. Police officer is shot. Would you refuse to treat the police officer until someone else removed all of the weapons on their duty belt and any/all backup weapons? I can give plenty of examples of police officers being untrustworthy (University of Maryland student beating, Seattle detective stomping on a person mistakenly ID'ed as a suspect who was proned out on the ground while using racially hateful language, East Palo Alto PD officer threatening to murder civilians, and off duty Baltimore murdering (and shockingly charged with murder even) another person at a bar) in just the last few months, so I don't want to hear the, "but it's a police officer" argument.


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## AlphaButch (Jun 19, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Let's take this to the extreme. Police officer is shot. Would you refuse to treat the police officer until someone else removed all of the weapons on their duty belt and any/all backup weapons? I can give plenty of examples of police officers being untrustworthy (University of Maryland student beating, Seattle detective stomping on a person mistakenly ID'ed as a suspect who was proned out on the ground while using racially hateful language, East Palo Alto PD officer threatening to murder civilians, and off duty Baltimore murdering (and shockingly charged with murder even) another person at a bar) in just the last few months, so I don't want to hear the, "but it's a police officer" argument.



Yes. If they are unable to maintain positive control of their weapon (or will be unable to, due to pain management, etc) or they meet the ALOC/behavior standard, they give up their belt and tools to their partner/superior, etc. It's happened a few times down here over the last year, I may start treatment but there is always someone there who will be responsible for their gear. If I'm doing a combined response, I'll secure their gear away myself until their CO meets me and signs it all out or I sign it all over to the PD at the ER.

I also expect that should I be the one as a patient, that my weapons get locked away. I don't want to come out of a medicated state and informed that I shot the medic treating me or that my weapon was lost somewhere because no one knew I had one and it fell out somewhere (wasn't secured by the medic on scene).


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## CAOX3 (Jun 19, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> I'm sorry, I didn't realize that I surrendered my constitutional protection against unreasonable search and seizure because I'm having a medical emergency. You better have a better reason than 'because I wanted to' if you want to pull the scene safety card.



Unconscious parties imply consent whether it be to search or treatment. 

I'm not going to be stuck by some junkie who decided to go to his happy place and didn't have the common courtesy to empty his pockets before hand.

Just as I assume if your shot there is someone in the general vicinity with a gun, if you have overdosed I'm assuming there's a needle close by until proven otherwise.

I have the utmost respect for your constitutional rights it isn't granted at the risk to my safety.

We can go to court and argue about it there, I have no problem with that but on scene its my way or the highway.  Your also entitled under your constitutional rights to arrange other means of transportation to the hospital.

I dont pat everyone down, if your conscious the cops can deal with you if your not then I will do everything in my power to ensure the safety of everyone involved.


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## CAOX3 (Jun 19, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Let's take this to the extreme. Police officer is shot. Would you refuse to treat the police officer until someone else removed all of the weapons on their duty belt and any/all backup weapons? I can give plenty of examples of police officers being untrustworthy (University of Maryland student beating, Seattle detective stomping on a person mistakenly ID'ed as a suspect who was proned out on the ground while using racially hateful language, East Palo Alto PD officer threatening to murder civilians, and off duty Baltimore murdering (and shockingly charged with murder even) another person at a bar) in just the last few months, so I don't want to hear the, "but it's a police officer" argument.



If anyone is shot I dont go anywhere near them until the police have arrived and cleared the scene.

I dont know if you have ever been on a call where a police officer is injured, but in a matter of minutes every cop within a fifty mile radius will be there in the blink of an eye, on duty, off duty, retired, state, marsharls anyone who holds a badge, you name it.  You wont even have your gear out of the truck and you will be surrounded by cops, they will have a route planned to the hospital, a helicopter on standby and a hospital escort that would rival the presidents.  They dont mess around with injured cops.

Me securing his weapon wouldn't be a problem as this will be done before I even have the opportunity to lay eyes on him.


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## 1badassEMT-I (Jun 20, 2010)

the_negro_puppy said:


> If you are suspicious and the pt refuses a pat down, refuse to treat them, its that simple. Your safety comes first and if you have reason to believe you may be endangered dont touch them. It never usually comes to that but its good to just ask politely if they might have any sharps on them etc, most of the time they know you want to help them and will cooperate.



AGREE Your safety comes first!!!!! PERIOD!!!!!


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## Shishkabob (Jun 20, 2010)

I ram on five ODs last night...half of them conscious.  I went through the pockets of each one of them, looking for id, prescription meds, and the offending drugs to know what I was working with.

If I'm taking you to the hospital against your will, any claims of assault and/or battery will fall on deaf ears, as I'm already doing something against you're wishes so it doesn't matter if you refuse to let me search your pockets.


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## DrParasite (Jun 20, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> So if I have a pocket knife, you're going to throw it out? There are objects that are legal to have that can be considered "dangerous," however the presence of a "dangerous" object doesn't mean it can be thrown out or that it should be taken away.


my safety comes first.  you as a fellow provider should not argue this fact.  and no, I am not going to throw it out.  I will, however, confiscate it for the duration of the transport.  it will be turned over to security, and they can return it when you leave the ER.  oh, and just for the record, you have the right to carry a pocket knife, because it's legal.  but the TSA has an amazing collection of pocket knives, nail files, and nail clippers.  try arguing with them that your search and seizure rights are being violated, and you have a right to keep your legal items.  let me know how far you get, and unless i am mistaken, they are not considered law enforcement officers either.


JPINFV said:


> I'm saying that I wouldn't confiscate a pocket knife or granny's cane for the sole reason that they have it. However I'm not so paranoid to think that everyone with a cane or a pocket knife are going to stab me or bonk me over the head. If the volunteer ambulance is dispatched by means of the 911 system, then it is acting as a government service.


  I hope for your sake you never get stabbed or bonked on the head by a demented patient because of your careless thinking.


JPINFV said:


> Depends on the situation. Maybe I just don't want you feeling me up because you're paranoid that I might be carrying a legal tool and if you deny care because of some unreasonable paranoia, you can bet that that would be considered abandonment. Sorry, but I can just see plenty of people here refusing to care for, say, a construction worker because they have a box cutter unless police are on scene. Yes, I think that a jury would find that sort of refusal to provide care unreasonable.


are you a cute blond?  maybe a playboy bunny?  maybe you got a great rack?  I mean, not that I would ever feel up any patient, but unless you meet the above 3 qualification, then the thought won't even cross my mind.

you can see a construction work being refused care because he has a box cutter?  I don't blame 'em.  solution?  take the box cutter away and give it to one of his coworkers.  Then he can get all the treatment he wants.  or, he can refuse to give it up, which tells me that he doesn't want my help that much.  RMA by action, unsafe scene, you chose, if you want my help, you follow my rules.  otherwise, if you are sick, i will wait until you pass out, then remove any and all items in your possession that can hurt me, and treat you accordingly. not all that complicated.

why stop at a construction worker?  what about a butcher?  would you let a butcher carry his favorite knife with him (an 8 inch cleaver) that he just cut his thumb off with to the hospital?  after all, it's legal for him to have.  or what about a hunting accident?  are you going to let the hunter keep his loaded shot gun while you transport him?  after all it's his legal right to have.


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## JPINFV (Jun 20, 2010)

God, I love the paranoia in this thread.

1. TSA=security theater. The vast majority of the restrictions are more about looking like they do something than actually increasing security. 

2. I'm sorry, where do you work where hunters are carrying concealed rifles? I thought this thread was about searching patients?

3. I'll go back to my origional comment. Is it too much to ask that you have some sort of reasonable articulable suspicion before searching patients? Heck, even the police don't get to do a terry search on every single person that they deal with.


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## Shishkabob (Jun 20, 2010)

Correct but we also aren't talking about parting down all of our patients either...just the ones who we reasonably suspect might have something dangerous on them...same level of suspicion the police use for searches.

Plus hey, I'm doing it for medical reasons...if I find anything else it's pure bonus.


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## mycrofft (Jun 21, 2010)

*deleted*

Excuse the wisearse comment please.


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## CAOX3 (Jun 21, 2010)

Your right some paranoia will go along way in assuring your tucking your kids in bed at night.  

This isn't a game read the headlines EMS providers are assaulted every day to varying degrees.  I do my part to assure my name isn't in print the next day.  Sure ninety-percent of my patients pose no threat to me at all its the ten-percent who do that force me to believe everyone MAY.

Pat downs are a cops job, ensuring my safety is my job.


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## 1badassEMT-I (Jun 21, 2010)

caox3 said:


> your right some paranoia will go along way in assuring your tucking your kids in bed at night.
> 
> This isn't a game read the headlines ems providers are assaulted every day to varying degrees.  I do my part to assure my name isn't in print the next day.  Sure ninety-percent of my patients pose no threat to me at all its the ten-percent who do that force me to believe everyone may.
> 
> Pat downs are a cops job, ensuring my safety is my job.



amen!!!!!!!!!


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## Scottpre (Jun 21, 2010)

I do a lot of EMS work at a large college stadium. Got called to an AOB PT at one of the tail gating parties who was vomiting and weeble-wobbling everywhere. I get on scene and move to do my initial contact at the same time police arrived. They had me wait a second so they could pat him down. Sure enough, he had a lock-blade style knife his pocket. 

I'm perfectly happy to let the cops do their thing first.


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## DrParasite (Jun 21, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> God, I love the paranoia in this thread.


just because your a paranoid, doesn't mean the world isn't out to get you.


JPINFV said:


> 2. I'm sorry, where do you work where hunters are carrying concealed rifles? I thought this thread was about searching patients?


you were the one who said who am I to take away a legal weapon that doesn't belong to me.  after all right to bear arms and search and seizure rights in the constitution.  I am just saying your argument is weak at best, and a danger to yourself and others at worst.  I am looking out for YOUR best interests, while you seem to think that your invulnerable, and that you will never get hurt on this job.  oh yeah, and people have the right to carry guns and weapons on them, and who am I, the lowly EMS professional who is about to enter a limited space area with them, to say they are not allow to bring their weapons with them, and even more, not permitted to check them for weapons because I would be invading their privacy.  Sorry, my safety comes before their potential right to conceal something that can hurt me if they so chose to.


JPINFV said:


> 3. I'll go back to my original comment. Is it too much to ask that you have some sort of reasonable articulable suspicion before searching patients? Heck, even the police don't get to do a terry search on every single person that they deal with.


I am no cop, but I think it's a safe bet that every single person that gets arrested gets searched.  every person that is placed in the back of a police car gets searched.  every single person who enters a court house gets search (at least for weapons or metal objects).  if you enter a jail, you will get searched.  this is for the safety of the officers, and the public.

But anyone with an altered mental status (for whatever reason) should be searched.  anyone who was involved in any altercation should be searched.  any unconscious under the age of 55 should be searched, esp if they have a HX of using.  anyone under the influence should be searched.  any EDP should be searched.  I think I covered everything.  oh wait, anyone who you think should be searched, even if it's just because something is setting off the hairs on the back of your neck, should be searched.  and if they object to being searched, then leave the scene and call the cops and let them to the search.

my safety comes before the patient's rights.  if you won't consent to be searched, then you don't need the ambulance.  take a taxi to the er.  then, when you get to the ER, you take off all your clothes, and put on a gown.  it's pretty hard to conceal a firearm or knife in your boxers or thong.  but my safety comes before your right again unreasonable search and seizure.

oh and JPINFV, I am done having this discussion with you.  if you don't get it by now, then you never will.  and I truly hope that you don't learn your lesson the hard way and end up in the ER with a penetrating injury because you didn't want offend someone by searching them for weapons.


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## Trayos (Jun 26, 2010)

*Dealing in absolutes...*

...means that everyone loses absolutely.
Nobody here is saying that a victim with an unknown psychological condition possibly brought on by traumatic events should be free to carry a weapon into essentially, a closed box on wheels.
Conversely, nobody is saying that an exhaustive search must be performed before each and every patient is transported.
All we have seen here is an argument about the _degree_ of proactive scene safety. This is not a case of black and white, but light gray and dark gray.
Both of you feel the same way, essentially. Now, can we please move back to constructive discussion, instead of going into vapor-lock when somebody challenges our ideas? Everybody is changed by what they have experienced, and it would be wrong to assume that you and I have experienced the same events, and reacted in the same way. You are entitled to your own opinion as well as everybody else.


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## lightsandsirens5 (Jun 26, 2010)

Ohy my gosh. I just read the entire thread and all I can say is:

Six hundred ninety five trillion, twelve billion, seven hundred seventy seven million eight hundred sixty nine thousand two hundred fifty one is one hundred nineteen, one hundred nineteen is eighteen, eighteen is eight, eight is five and five is four.

Except in this case people don't want five to be four, they want it to be six and six is three and threes is five except they want it to be seventeen ant that is nine and nine is OH MY GOSH I JUST FOUND A RIFLE HIDDEN IN THIS GUYS PANTS GOOD THING I WAS SEARCHING HIM FOR NEEDLES HE COULD HAVE KILLED ME!

Ok, enough of that.


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## Outworld (Jun 29, 2010)

>>>Depends on the situation. Maybe I just don't want you feeling me up because you're paranoid that I might be carrying a legal tool and if you deny care because of some unreasonable paranoia, you can bet that that would be considered abandonment. Sorry, but I can just see plenty of people here refusing to care for, say, a construction worker because they have a box cutter unless police are on scene. Yes, I think that a jury would find that sort of refusal to provide care unreasonable.<<<<

I don't have to 'feel you up' or 'pat you down' because part of my responsibility is to do a thorough physical exam. Yes, on everyone. Even if you say you only have a sore throat, or an owie on your toe.
That means that you get the kind of exam that we used to all do before the ridiculous 'focused' exam that NREMT promotes. Interestingly enough, when you do a thorough exam not only do you find a host of underlying medical problems that the pt did not tell you about, you find the knives and guns and snakes that the pt has stowed away. Then you simply set them aside out of reach, give to a family or friend or otherwise remove them from play. Pt gets the right kind of physical and you remove a potential threat, quietly and without fuss. And yes, I _can_ do this because it is my ambulance...


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## thatJeffguy (Jun 29, 2010)

Scottpre said:


> I do a lot of EMS work at a large college stadium. Got called to an AOB PT at one of the tail gating parties who was vomiting and weeble-wobbling everywhere. I get on scene and move to do my initial contact at the same time police arrived. They had me wait a second so they could pat him down. Sure enough, he had a lock-blade style knife his pocket.
> 
> I'm perfectly happy to let the cops do their thing first.




A lock blade style knife?!?

Did you call Homeland Security?

Terror Code: Hot Red?

Did he detonate the device?



Seriously guy, you need to chill the hell out.


If I'm not at work, I'm carrying a weapon.

If you disarm me against my will, you've committed theft.  Theft of a firearm is a first degree felony in this state and I'd go to every length to prosecute you.

Just because you managed to grind through the 110 hour class doesn't mean that you're Jack Bauer?


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## thatJeffguy (Jun 29, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> my safety comes first.  you as a fellow provider should not argue this fact.  and no, I am not going to throw it out.  I will, however, confiscate it for the duration of the transport.  it will be turned over to security, and they can return it when you leave the ER.  oh, and just for the record, you have the right to carry a pocket knife, because it's legal.


Not quite.  It's legal because you have the unalienable right to carry said device.  Our rights are natural and exist regardless of the current "law".



> but the TSA has an amazing collection of pocket knives, nail files, and nail clippers.  try arguing with them that your search and seizure rights are being violated, and you have a right to keep your legal items.  let me know how far you get, and unless i am mistaken, they are not considered law enforcement officers either.



It's prohibited, by law, to carry specific items onto commercial airlines.  Could you cite the law that prohibits the  carrying of specific items on an ambulance? The only one I'm aware of makes it a felony for a loaded firearm to be carried on an ambulance unless carried by an officer.  So, if you disarm me and bring the gun, you're a felon.



> are you a cute blond?  maybe a playboy bunny?  maybe you got a great rack?  I mean, not that I would ever feel up any patient, but unless you meet the above 3 qualification, then the thought won't even cross my mind.



Enjoy prison.



> you can see a construction work being refused care because he has a box cutter?  I don't blame 'em.  solution?  take the box cutter away and give it to one of his coworkers.  Then he can get all the treatment he wants.  or, he can refuse to give it up, which tells me that he doesn't want my help that much.  RMA by action, unsafe scene, you chose, if you want my help, you follow my rules.  otherwise, if you are sick, i will wait until you pass out, then remove any and all items in your possession that can hurt me, and treat you accordingly. not all that complicated.



The Dumbification of America, redux.



> why stop at a construction worker?  what about a butcher?  would you let a butcher carry his favorite knife with him (an 8 inch cleaver) that he just cut his thumb off with to the hospital?  after all, it's legal for him to have.  or what about a hunting accident?  are you going to let the hunter keep his loaded shot gun while you transport him?  after all it's his legal right to have.


If they want to grab a weapon to take to the hospital, the answer is no.

If I find something on my trauma scan, I'll make it as safe as I can.  sometimes the safest place for a pocketknife is in the owners pocket.


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## DaniGrrl (Jun 29, 2010)

Question about the whole, "You can't take my gun, I have rights" portion of the argument...

Don't most of the laws about concealed weapons have exceptions to where you can carry? For example, you can't be within a certain distance from schools, and you can't go into government or public buildings (including malls). I would think that an ambulance, particularly one that is transporting or going to transport you to a hospital OR one that is owned/operated by a local government, would be a place where a CCW permit would not apply.


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## thatJeffguy (Jun 29, 2010)

DaniGrrl said:


> Question about the whole, "You can't take my gun, I have rights" portion of the argument...
> 
> Don't most of the laws about concealed weapons have exceptions to where you can carry?



Some do, some don't.  The  smashing victory for the Constitution yesterday, handed down by SCOTUS, will be changing a lot of that.



> For example, you can't be within a certain distance from schools, and you can't go into government or public buildings (including malls).


I can carry in schools and my state only prohibits me carrying in jails, but the law specifically stipulates that the jail is responsible for providing me with a locker in which to secure my firearm. 

A mall isn't a "public" building, it's a private piece of land.  If the land owners don't want you to carry and have posted signage to that effect, they can have you removed or arrested if they catch you.



> I would think that an ambulance, particularly one that is transporting or going to transport you to a hospital OR one that is owned/operated by a local government, would be a place where a CCW permit would not apply.



You're completely correct, in most states.  The carrying of a firearm on an ambulance is a felony in my state.  So, do you want the patient to have to deal with that, or you?


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## DaniGrrl (Jun 29, 2010)

Rather than public buildings, I should have said public accommodations. That's how it's listed here in NC, malls and theaters are called public accommodations and CCW is not permitted.


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## JPINFV (Jun 29, 2010)

thatJeffguy said:


> Some do, some don't.  The  smashing victory for the Constitution yesterday, handed down by SCOTUS, will be changing a lot of that.


Yep... now that the 2nd Amendment is incorporated, there's going to be a lot of court challenges...


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## jjesusfreak01 (Jun 29, 2010)

DaniGrrl said:


> Rather than public buildings, I should have said public accommodations. That's how it's listed here in NC, malls and theaters are called public accommodations and CCW is not permitted.



Ugh, I never understand why politicians think that passing laws will ever prevent criminals from carrying anywhere. If a person is a convicted felon, tell them they can't have a gun. If they ever get caught with one, put them away. Passing laws that only effect every non-criminal in a society doesn't protect anyone. Also, it should be the right of private businesses to determine if people can carry (as malls are private businesses).

PS: I agree that ambulances should be a place where guns are prohibited, but that's hardly enforceable since criminals are rarely trying to sneak guns onto ambulances, more like they have a bullet hole in their chest and an unfired gun in their pocket.


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## DrParasite (Jun 30, 2010)

thatJeffguy said:


> A lock blade style knife?!?//Did you call Homeland Security?//Terror Code: Hot Red?//Did he detonate the device?


probably not,but I am guessing the knife was taken away from the intoxicated individual so it wouldn't be pulled on the EMT if the pt decided to get combative.





thatJeffguy said:


> Seriously guy, you need to chill the hell out.


what are you basing this on?





thatJeffguy said:


> If I'm not at work, I'm carrying a weapon.


which is your right, should you do that.





thatJeffguy said:


> If you disarm me against my will, you've committed theft.  Theft of a firearm is a first degree felony in this state and I'd go to every length to prosecute you.


and you will be laughed out of the court room.  not only that, but if i sustain any injuries while you are resisting my attempting to keep myself safe, I will make sure you are charged with assault & battery of a public safety professional, interference with a public safety professional in the course of his duties, reckless endangerment of my crew and the public in general, and hopefully after LEOs arrival, and I tell them what happen,  you will continue to resist and they will subdue you appropriately and take away your weapon.  not only that, but you will probably lose you CCW permit, and spend some time in jail for all the crimes you commit.

or, I will let you keep the weapon, call LEOs leave the scene, where your condition will deteriorate, and if you pass out, you will again be stripped of every weapon you have on you, and if need be, be transported to the hospital in hand cuffs (protective custody, for your safety because you are now altered as a result of your illness or injury).  Feel free to tell you they are violating your rights, I'm sure they will love to hear that.


thatJeffguy said:


> Just because you managed to grind through the 110 hour class doesn't mean that you're Jack Bauer?


and just because you are always armed, doesn't mean you are going to be transported to the hospital with your weapons still on you 


thatJeffguy said:


> Not quite.  It's legal because you have the unalienable right to carry said device.  Our rights are natural and exist regardless of the current "law".


I see we have another guy who just doesn't get it.  You absolutely have the right to carry.  Fine.  I have the right to not treat or transport you anywhere as long as you have that weapon on you.  My safety trumps your rights.  Feel free to try to sue me, I'm pretty sure a reasonable judge and jury will laugh you out of court, and that's assuming you can find a lawyer to even consider the case.


thatJeffguy said:


> It's prohibited, by law, to carry specific items onto commercial airlines.  Could you cite the law that prohibits the  carrying of specific items on an ambulance? The only one I'm aware of makes it a felony for a loaded firearm to be carried on an ambulance unless carried by an officer.  So, if you disarm me and bring the gun, you're a felon.


oh hell no.  If I am disarming you, then you are not getting the gun back.  absolutely not.  it's being turned over to law enforcement.  you are more than welcome to get it back from them.


thatJeffguy said:


> Enjoy prison.


I've been there, but usually at the request of law enforcement in function of an EMT.  never as an inmate, and I assure you, I have no plans to change that.


thatJeffguy said:


> The Dumbification of America, redux.


I know, anything you can't understand, you call dumbification.  It's called using your faulty logic to prove how incorrect your point is.  nice try though.


thatJeffguy said:


> If they want to grab a weapon to take to the hospital, the answer is no.


why not?  it's the inalienable right do do it.  why the backstepping?


thatJeffguy said:


> If I find something on my trauma scan, I'll make it as safe as I can.  sometimes the safest place for a pocketknife is in the owners pocket.


a pocket knife? are we talking about a 2 inch swiss army knife?  of a 6 inch hunting knife?  I might let a patient keep a small pocket knife.  key word is might, it would depend on the call.

but the safest place for the knife, in regards to the EMT who is treating the injured, which is me, is in the hands of law enforcement, or in a worst case,  MY POCKET.  not with the patient.  I am not stealing it, I am making sure said weapon does not get used against me.  and it gets turned over to hospital security when we arrive at the hospital, where it gets returned to the patient when he and the hospital part ways.


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## JPINFV (Jun 30, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> and you will be laughed out of the court room.  not only that, but if i sustain any injuries while you are resisting my attempting to keep myself safe, I will make sure you are charged with assault & battery of a public safety professional, interference with a public safety professional in the course of his duties, reckless endangerment of my crew and the public in general, and hopefully after LEOs arrival, and I tell them what happen,  you will continue to resist and they will subdue you appropriately and take away your weapon.  not only that, but you will probably lose you CCW permit, and spend some time in jail for all the crimes you commit.


Good luck getting those charges to stick in the scenario as presented. I especially liked the "reckless endangerment" charges. 



> but the safest place for the knife, in regards to the EMT who is treating the injured, which is me, is in the hands of law enforcement, or in a worst case,  MY POCKET.  not with the patient.  I am not stealing it, I am making sure said weapon does not get used against me.  and it gets turned over to hospital security when we arrive at the hospital, where it gets returned to the patient when he and the hospital part ways.



A knife is a tool more often than a weapon. It's amazing what the use of the most correct noun will do to a conversation.


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## DrParasite (Jun 30, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> A knife is a tool more often than a weapon. It's amazing what the use of the most correct noun will do to a conversation.


and a baseball bat is a sports tool. and a 12 inch phillips screw driver is a handyman tool.  and a machete is a tool that is used to clear brush in the rain forests.  doesn't mean any of those items can be used as a weapon to hurt you.


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## JPINFV (Jun 30, 2010)

So can steel toed boots. Do you force everyone wearing boots to take their boots off before stepping into the ambulance?


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## DrParasite (Jun 30, 2010)

absolutely not, that would be absurd.

I do, however, have them sit on the cot, with a seatbelt over their thighs/knees, as well as across their chest and pelvis, to ensure they don't fall off the cot during transport.  plus if that are going to get up and stomp me to death, I have a little bit of warning (when they start remove said belts to kick me with said boots)

but I forgot, you are ok with allowing your patients to carry weapons on them in the ambulance, so I will stop wasting my time with you and no longer respond to your nonsense.  hopefully others can learn from your mistakes and ignorance.


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## JPINFV (Jun 30, 2010)

I'd argue that it depends on the "weapon" (since just about anything can be considered a weapon) and the situation. Not all patients are drug crazed psych patients with homicidal and suicidal ideations. This thread is getting to the security theater point a la TSA...


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## MrBrown (Jun 30, 2010)

Sasha can come pat me down any day before I go into her castle ....

This "DOCTOR" jumpsuit is awful thick and padded and you can hide all sorts in the pockets and gosh knows where else 

... and now back to your regularly scheduled thread

"Hello HEMS, yes, I see, OK, thanks mate, ta"
"Oi bloody hell Oz get up, its a go!"

Brown away! h34r:


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## usafmedic45 (Jun 30, 2010)

> but I forgot, you are ok with allowing your patients to carry weapons on them in the ambulance, so I will stop wasting my time with you and no longer respond to your nonsense. hopefully others can learn from your mistakes and ignorance.


No offense, but JP isn't the one coming off as ignorant.  Technically, neither are you but I can't elaborate further on that without the mods swinging the ban stick at me again. 

Seriously, I could do more damage to you a lot quicker unarmed, or armed with mundane items, than you could do to me with a knife most likely.  If the patient is not an overt threat, there is no reason to take a pocket knife from them.  Maybe I'm not paranoid enough, but I don't feel the need to strip search the 50 y/o redneck with chest pain just to make sure he doesn't have a dissembled Uzi stashed in his rectum.  The illusion of safety you seem hellbent on achieving isn't worth the trouble, especially given that I don't really enjoy channeling Robert Stack from _Beavis and Butthead Do America_: "Body cavity searches all around! Don't stop until you reach the back of their teeth!" 

Now, guns and Bowie knives get a "Hey, why don't toss that flamethrower in your car/leave that Panzerfaust here/give your katana to your friend there because otherwise the cops who work security at the hospital are going to take it from you as soon as we arrive.  I don't want you to have anything else to worry about, OK?".  If you act like you're doing them a favor, most people are happy to play along.


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## MrBrown (Jun 30, 2010)

usafmedic45 said:


> leave that Panzerfaust here



Brown bein ein Deutsche! Nobody knows how to wage war like them Germans, highly efficent lot they are


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## Stew (Jun 30, 2010)

At the risk of adding fuel...
I won't pat down my patient's, I wasn't trained too. If I'm concerned for my safety or that of my partner I will ask the patient if they have anything on them. If they say yes I'll ask them where and if they are happy for me to hold onto it. I'm not up close and personal when they pull anything out, and if I'm not happy it's safe to do this I'll ask for the police.

Thus far most patient's have been happy to tell me what they have on them and more than happy for me to hold onto this. 

We are covered in my state my the "Ambulance Service Act 1991" which gives ambulance officers the power to take any reasonable measures to ensure the safety of ourselves, another officer or any other person. Included in this, we may "remove from or otherwise deal with, any article or material in the area" and "request any person to take all reasonable measures to assist the authorised officer."

Like I said I've never had any problems thus far (touch wood) and would never quote legislation to somebody, ultimately if I feel I'm not safe I'll leave and wait for Police (something I have done and will continue to do).


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## thatJeffguy (Jun 30, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> probably not,but I am guessing the knife was taken away from the intoxicated individual so it wouldn't be pulled on the EMT



Was the intox pt a young college age man?  Athletic?  What shape was the EMT?  

Anyone can be violent, any situation can be dangerous.  Thinking that you've made the world  a safer place by taking away a three inch piece of steel is a false notion.



> if the pt decided to get combative.what are you basing this on?which is your right, should you do that.and you will be laughed out of the court room.  not only that, but if i sustain any injuries while you are resisting my attempting to keep myself safe, I will make sure you are charged with assault & battery of a public safety professional, interference with a public safety professional in the course of his duties, reckless endangerment of my crew and the public in general, and hopefully after LEOs arrival, and I tell them what happen,



Well, *OF COURSE* you'd do that!  My god, someone violated your rights!  They haven't taken a 110hour class at the community college, where do they derive the power to do so?



> or, I will let you keep the weapon, call LEOs leave the scene, where your condition will deteriorate, and if you pass out, you will again be stripped of every weapon you have on you,


You'll be taking my necklace?  My hands?  My watch?  My pen?  

Did you, by any chance, want to be a policeman but fail some sort of test so you Plan emt-B'ed it into an ambulance?  Do you carry a EMT-b badge/shield?



> and just because you are always armed, doesn't mean you are going to be transported to the hospital with your weapons still on you



So, I'm lying there in a ditch all effed up.  I'm armed.  I must go to the hospital.  You're not permitted to possess my firearm in an ambulance.  Do you just chuck it back into the woods?  Drop it on the nearby playground?  Worm-hole it to the Tele-Tubbies?  You understand that if YOU disarm me, that weapon is now in YOUR control and YOU are a felon for bringing it on the ambulance, right?  What if you go to disarm me and, through your own ignorance, shoot me in the leg?  In the spine?  I bet you're department won't be doing much to help you then, you'll be charged, arrested and sued ten shades of blind.  



> I see we have another guy who just doesn't get it.  You absolutely have the right to carry.  Fine.  I have the right to not treat or transport you anywhere as long as you have that weapon on you.



Source for that, please?

A "decision" isn't a "right".  Rights are absolute and are naturally endowed upon us by the fact we are living, sentient moral agents.  You can "decide" to do whatever you want, but you'd better make sure that your department is on your side here.

The Brady 9th specifically says that you're not to remove or handle weapons.  I'm sure that your medical director is just itching to put his license and livelihood on the line for some -b that decides to make up his own rules on the field.  I'm sure your department is just itching to pay the millions of dollars they'd owe someone if you disarmed them and, in the process, accidentally tapped him or someone else.



> oh hell no.  If I am disarming you, then you are not getting the gun back.  absolutely not.  it's being turned over to law enforcement.  you are more than welcome to get it back from them.



Let's "scenario" this one a bit.

You're dispatched to a "fall victim" at a nearby popular rock formation.  Upon arrival you find a 24 y/o man and the one bystander says he fell from twenty feet and landed on his chest.  You determine the  scene is safe and approach.  The man is awake, alert PPTE and having labored breathing.  You cut away his shirt and notice he's got a flail chest and a large bruise covering his sternum.  The patient goes unconscious, resp of 12, labored.

As you go to log-roll him you notice he's got a small handgun in the small of his back.

Now, it's illegal for YOU to have the handgun in the ambulance.  No LEO is present, the one bystander wandered off.  How do you take this critical patient to the hospital?  Stand back and wait thirty minutes for the LEO's to arrive?  They might as well just send the coroner.  Take the weapon yourself?  If you manage to take it without shooting him or someone else, then what?  You said you wouldnt' take it in the rig, so what do you do?  Chuck it off to the side?

You're partner notices that the patient now has pronounced JVD.

Go!



> I know, anything you can't understand, you call dumbification.  It's called using your faulty logic to prove how incorrect your point is.  nice try though.
> why not?  it's the inalienable right do do it.  why the backstepping?


I'm talking about the hoplophobia that's present in America today.  The irrational fear of inanimate objects.  "Mommy make bad thing disappear" mentality.



> a pocket knife? are we talking about a 2 inch swiss army knife?  of a 6 inch hunting knife?  I might let a patient keep a small pocket knife.  key word is might, it would depend on the call.



So you basically are completely arbitrary as to what you do?  Also, you can't make someone not "keep" something, you might temporarily keep it from them but you don't get to decide that this persons possession is no longer their own.



> but the safest place for the knife, in regards to the EMT who is treating the injured, which is me, is in the hands of law enforcement, or in a worst case,  MY POCKET.



You should travel to Oakland CA and ask a young man there where the  safest place for a gun is.  I bet he wouldn't say "in the hands of a policeman", because he was shot, execution style, by a policeman while he was handcuffed and proned out.



> not with the patient.  I am not stealing it, I am making sure said weapon does not get used against me.  and it gets turned over to hospital security when we arrive at the hospital, where it gets returned to the patient when he and the hospital part ways.



So why wouldn't you do this with a gun?


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## Sassafras (Jun 30, 2010)

Ok, so legally what does an EMT do when they come on the scene and the patient is packing?  I'm probably showing my noobishness here, but I'm not feeling comfortable having a patient carrying a loaded gun in the back of my rig when they are deemed critical enough to go for a ride in my bus.  But I'm learning legally I can not remove said item?  I have to let them carry it with them?  I can understand certain situations are a judgement call.  Maybe even guns are a judgement call.  I don't know, but given we weren't ever presented with such a scenario in class I really don't know what to do in the above described situation.


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## thatJeffguy (Jun 30, 2010)

Sassafras said:


> Ok, so legally what does an EMT do when they come on the scene and the patient is packing?


Depends state to state.

If you come upon a scene where a guy is OD'ed, you can take the drugs to the hospital with you although I have no idea why they do that, it's not like th M.D. Is gonna race down and mass spectrometer the sample.

If you can articulate the reasons to a reasonable person, you'll probably be OK.  If you end up delaying patient care because of the inanimate object, you'll probably not be ok.



> I'm probably showing my noobishness here, but I'm not feeling comfortable having a patient carrying a loaded gun in the back of my rig when they are deemed critical enough to go for a ride in my bus.



Why not?  What's an unconscious patient going to do with a weapon?  How does a degree of illness, per se, mandate that the individual is unsafe with the weapon?



> But I'm learning legally I can not remove said item?  I have to let them carry it with them?  I can understand certain situations are a judgement call.  Maybe even guns are a judgement call.  I don't know, but given we weren't ever presented with such a scenario in class I really don't know what to do in the above described situation.



You've got to use initiative.  A combative patient covered with gang tattoos found at the corner of Crack Rock and MLK Jr Blvd packing heat is one thing.  An elderly man having a MI at the Country Buffet is another.


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## Sassafras (Jun 30, 2010)

I'm thinking unconcious pts can suddenly become concious and be majorly altered and combative.  I've seen men have heart attacks and be unresponsive to the first 2 shocks only to jump up and try to beat the bejeebuz out of the docs on the third jolt.  But my concern isn't as much the unconcious but the altered patient that could become scared and combative.  Or the assault victim who's massively pissed off for being attacked.


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## DrParasite (Jun 30, 2010)

Sassafras said:


> Ok, so legally what does an EMT do when they come on the scene and the patient is packing?


depends on how much you value your own safety.  Most would consider an armed patient who wants to keep his loaded fire arm to be an unsafe scene, and as such, EMS shouldn't be entering said unsafe scene.  Some think it's ok to let the patient keep it.  I guess it comes down to what you think, and how much you value your life and safety.





Sassafras said:


> I'm probably showing my noobishness here, but I'm not feeling comfortable having a patient carrying a loaded gun in the back of my rig when they are deemed critical enough to go for a ride in my bus.


you aren't showing your noobishness, you are showing that you have a brain.  An intelligent EMS provider who values his safety and his life would think the same as you.  remember, what's the first thing you check?  scene safety.  





Sassafras said:


> But I'm learning legally I can not remove said item?  I have to let them carry it with them?


I am pretty sure there is no law that says you can't remove a gun from a patient, despite what some might be saying.  otherwise, hospitals would allow people to carry their guns as well.  and contrary what some think, YOU DO NOT NEED TO LET A PATIENT CARRY A LOADED FIREARM INTO YOUR AMBULANCE.  If they insist on keeping it, then they don't need the ambulance, and it becomes an unsafe scene, and leave until the cops arrive.  





Sassafras said:


> I can understand certain situations are a judgement call.  Maybe even guns are a judgement call.  I don't know, but given we weren't ever presented with such a scenario in class I really don't know what to do in the above described situation.


instead of asking for ideas on how you should from people in different states, why not ask your fellow squad members?  or even better, ask your local law enforcement agency what you think they would do.

Some people here are apparently supermen, and are not afraid of being shot. Me, I don't want any more holes in my body than when I started my shift.  That means the patient doesn't get to bring his weapons with him.  And if he insists, than he obviously doesn't need an ambulance that badly.


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## DrParasite (Jun 30, 2010)

thatJeffguy said:


> Why not?  What's an unconscious patient going to do with a weapon?  How does a degree of illness, per se, mandate that the individual is unsafe with the weapon?


hmm, what will an unconcious OD person with a gun in his belt do when you push narcan, wake him form his high, and see several people he doesn't know standing over him?


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## usafmedic45 (Jun 30, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> hmm, what will an unconcious OD person with a gun in his belt do when you push narcan, wake him form his high, and see several people he doesn't know standing over him?


That's why you restrain him before giving him the Narcan.  It's a stupid move to reverse medications like narcotics or benzos without making sure the patient is properly restrained.


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## JPINFV (Jun 30, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> remember, what's the first thing you check?  scene safety.


Did you seriously just quote a skills sheet? No, seriously? Do you tell the fire fighters to pull the engine around the corner because the axes on board make the scene unsafe? 



> even better, ask your local law enforcement agency what you think they would do.


This is the only advice of yours worth following. The rest sounds like the paranoid bull crud that spews forth from the Brady Bunch Campaign for Gun Grabbing. A scene with a gun is not necessarily safe nor unsafe. A gun is an inanimate object that isn't going to magically jump up and shoot anyone. However the presence of a gun alone shouldn't cause anyone to cover there eyes, scream, shout, and panic. 



> Some people here are apparently supermen, and are not afraid of being shot. Me, I don't want any more holes in my body than when I started my shift.  That means the patient doesn't get to bring his weapons with him.  And if he insists, than he obviously doesn't need an ambulance that badly.


The only thing more dangerous than a patient with a gun is an EMT with no fire arms experience trying to handle and disarm a gun. A holstered fire arm is much more safe than an EMT bumbling around trying to figure out how to unload it. 


DrParasite said:


> hmm, what will an unconcious OD person with a gun in his belt do when you push narcan, wake him form his high, and see several people he doesn't know standing over him?



What exactly is your obsession about anyone who is armed being a drug addict, patient with a psychiatric disorder or a criminal?


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## Trayos (Jun 30, 2010)

I think that most patients should be willing to put aside their weaponry if told that it would be taken from them anyway at a later time, especially if you do it in a overtly empathetic way. Ordering a person with a weapon around would probably complicate the situation, regardless of whether or not they were in the frame of mind to use it.


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## Sasha (Jul 1, 2010)

MrBrown said:


> Sasha can come pat me down any day before I go into her castle ....
> 
> This "DOCTOR" jumpsuit is awful thick and padded and you can hide all sorts in the pockets and gosh knows where else
> 
> ...



Prior to entrance into Sasha's Castle all guests are strip searched. It negates the need for a pat down.


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## JPINFV (Jul 1, 2010)

Sasha said:


> Prior to entrance into Sasha's Castle all guests are strip searched. It negates the need for a pat down.



Sasha, are you mixing business and pleasure again?


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## Sasha (Jul 1, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Sasha, are you mixing business and pleasure again?



Perhaps....

But, have you ever considered the possiblity of the patient beating you to death with tennis shoes? Or using their long gold chain necklace to strangle you to death? Removing all clothing and jewelry, while potentially humiliating the patient, ensures that I'm ultra safe. And if they're big, strong, well muscled, I might even restrain them....

Oh, there I go mixing business and pleasure again....


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## usafmedic45 (Jul 1, 2010)

> Prior to entrance into Sasha's Castle all guests are strip searched. It negates the need for a pat down.



Am I welcome to bring my girlfriend along? :lol:


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## FLEMTP (Jul 2, 2010)

DaniGrrl said:


> Rather than public buildings, I should have said public accommodations. That's how it's listed here in NC, malls and theaters are called public accommodations and CCW is not permitted.



Your information is not correct. In NC the only way you are legally prohibited from carrying in a mall or theater etc is if the establishment posts a sign that meets specific criteria as spelled out by NC state law. THEN its illegal to carry there. No sign= Carry is ok.


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## FLEMTP (Jul 2, 2010)

People's responses crack me up here. 

My simple solution... if I have some reason to believe that I should need to pat you down.. I word it like this:

"Sir/Ma'am, Im going to pat you down before I put you in my ambulance, for my safety and yours, ok? Please place your hands on the back of your head, interlace your fingers/ Place your hands behind your back and clasp your hands like you're praying. Is there anything I need to know about on you? guns/knives/weapons/drugs/anything sharp thats going to poke me when I touch you?"

If they decline, then I tell them to stay where they are at, keep their hands visible and await law enforcements arrival on scene. I have yet to have anyone decline. Its all in how you word things. 

I asked permission, and they consented. Now, I did so in a way that most people don't realize that they consented for the search, but I am legally covered because I did ask and they consented.

If someone gives me permission, then I can do it without any concerns of liability, battery, or any of those other terms that people here throw around with out really understanding the intent behind the laws.


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