# Army Combat Medic AIT...



## Afflixion

So is it just me or have they severely dumbed down AIT for the _new and improved_ 68W10 - Health Care Specialist? From what I have seen of medics fresh out of AIT is nothing more than a "high speed" CLS (Combat Life Saver) and even that can be controversial. In the Army's infinite wisdom and intelligence they have shortened the course to 13weeks now, took out just about every aspect of civilian emergency medicine and split it into two simple phases. Phase One being obtaining your EMT-B in about 4 weeks and Phase Two is CMAST or Combat Medic Advanced Skills Training for the remainder of the time. They have also recently got rid of drill sergeants for the course as well. They have removed the live tissue lab, dumbed down the blood lab, shortened clinical time at BAMC (Brooke Army Medical Center) to 5 days I believe it is now. As for civilian aspects they completely did away with the teaching of BTLS and PHTLS, taken out intubation with an ETT, and teach IV's in a pretty much "there's a vein there put the catheter right there" fashion. grossly reduced required A&P. On the plus they did add a very thorough TC3 course and improved time at your FTX (Field Training Exercise) and STX (Situational Training Exercise.) When these medics get to units for the first time they know near nothing relevant. Most unit's are realizing this and sending their FNGs to the hospitals for X amount of time to work in the ER. The ones who do not and have any PA worth his worth as their Battalion Surgeon will have the PA meet with the new guys regularly and perform his own classes.

AIT has changed drastically from when I first enlisted as a 91W10 - Field Medic to a few years ago '05 when they transitioned us to the new and improved 68W - Healthcare Specialist. I understand the new combat focus but I really think it is merely a ploy to boost numbers as medics are a critical skill MOS and will continue to be for as long as the foreseeable future tells. When I went through the average attrition rate was 57% I imagine it has gone up some due to the even more condensed package... Or it could have gone down due to the dumbing down of materials. Any comments on this from the military side of the house or the civilian side who takes interest in such things?


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## rhan101277

How is the blood labs dumbed down?  I think the army is making a mistake by dumbing down materials.  They might as well go ahead and dumb down combat training for good measure.


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## Afflixion

using ancient manikins sending in groups of 15 or more with 1 instructor, not going into detail on casualties...


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## Shishkabob

Experience.

What works and what doesn't in combat.


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## LucidResq

Linuss said:


> Experience.
> 
> What works and what doesn't in combat.



LOL! 

No. Anytime the Army is trying to dumb something down, remember that it was already somewhat dumbed-down in the first place.


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## Shishkabob

LucidResq said:


> LOL!
> 
> No. Anytime the Army is trying to dumb something down, remember that it was already somewhat dumbed-down in the first place.



The Army has a vast history of making things 'easier' so that they can keep more recruits from failing.

But at the same time, not all the brass is stupid, and DOES want things to work better, and as a result, cost less.


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## Afflixion

Linuss said:


> The Army has a vast history of making things 'easier' so that they can keep more recruits from failing.
> 
> But at the same time, not all the brass is stupid, and DOES want things to work better, and as a result, cost less.



They look for initial savings as in right now, not savings in the future...A fine example of this is in our motorpool here rather than paving it they throw rocks (not gravel...rocks.) every week or so... Or the MRAP - Cayman they let BAE produce it because they would do it for the cheapest (typical lowest bidder wins scenario) but they have so many fires, roll overs and etc. with them that they reassigned the contract to Osh Kosh so now they not only have to pay more than what BAE was charging to produce they are also having the suspension system redone which Osh Kosh is charging them again for.

Dumbing thing's down in the military in general is simply a matter of standards falling, bringing in poorer quality soldiers/ sailors/ airmen/ marines. It is sugar coated and shoved down the common persons throat so they are none the wiser.


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## spisco85

Afflixion I wish it was just one training that was suffering but there is huge cutbacks across the board for combat soldiers as well. When I went to Ft. Knox for 19D OSUT we spent time in the fields and learned a good portion of the 19D skills and tasks that were required and performed them on a regular basis. Some of the soldiers we had show up in Iraq couldn't tell us the difference between cover and concealment let alone zero their M16s.

After my active duty assisgnment I signed up to be in a NG Ambulance Company for a year and to maybe reclass if I liked it. These 68Ws spent 0 time training as medics and instead thought of themselves as glorified taxi drivers.

I think if anything the focus needs to go back to training and less on the million dollar toys. Its boots on the ground that win wars.


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## Afflixion

spisco85 said:


> Afflixion I wish it was just one training that was suffering but there is huge cutbacks across the board for combat soldiers as well. When I went to Ft. Knox for 19D OSUT we spent time in the fields and learned a good portion of the 19D skills and tasks that were required and performed them on a regular basis. Some of the soldiers we had show up in Iraq couldn't tell us the difference between cover and concealment let alone zero their M16s.
> 
> After my active duty assisgnment I signed up to be in a NG Ambulance Company for a year and to maybe reclass if I liked it. These 68Ws spent 0 time training as medics and instead thought of themselves as glorified taxi drivers.
> 
> *I think if anything the focus needs to go back to training and less on the million dollar toys. Its boots on the ground that win wars.*



I couldn't agree more. The Army is focusing on crap that will make little to know difference to the average troop rather than putting money into resources for better training and further education.


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## thrilla82

gotta love this new softer army.  everyones too concerned with their oer's and ncoer's that they wont take a little risk here and there.  between iraq and here in afghanistan, ive run into too many young medics that dont know their a:glare::glare: from a hole in the ground.  plus these kids are getting 15k to do this, i got a xxxl tshirt when i joined.  gotta love it.


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## Afflixion

LOL, I got a 7500 bonus when I joined and that was the max but I didn't get a T-shirt. Now I believe they're up to 20k enlistment bonuses, you are absolutely right everyone is trying to kiss up to their superiors  in effort to get promoted and alas it works. They no longer promote via merit any more. Just the other day I saw someone who was promoted to E-6 ahead of 3 others who had more time in service and grade. They also had more promotion points... go figure.


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## extant

I just graduated from Fort Sam Houston on July 2nd as a 68w1o.  The criteria was pretty dumbed down, but it definatly wasn't shortened to 13 weeks.  It's still the full 16 1/2 weeks.  The hardest part is still the EMT training.  The EMT training from CPR to the NREMT is 6-7 weeks.  Keep in mind there are holidays and weekends off.  The whiskey phase is pretty lame honestly.   There are absolutly no clinicals at BAMC anymore.  Each class consists of 400+ students, it's just too many for clinicals.  

I'll lay out the schedule since it changes almost every cycle.

CPR > Mod 1 - 7 > Final > All Skills > NREMT > Whiskey tests 1-3 > Skills Validation > STX (All skills on crack) > FTX (Field Training Excersice) > Graduation.

The hardest part was the NREMT, once you pass this, you're almost garaunteed your graduation assuming you keep your military bearing.  

All in All, the Army Combat Medic Training, did not impress me or meet my expectations I had before entering.  I'll enjoy my career at home going to college for EMT-P and RN and probably deploy with retards in the National Guard and call it a good 6-8 Years.  The Army is turning into a joke, honestly.

EDIT: Cadre are still retarded, Over night passes were stripped years ago due to sexual assaults.  Bravo 07-09 started with 490 and graduated with 291.  I received a 20k Bonus, many people received 40-60k.  Thats it's for now, if you want to know more, i'll answer, i just can't think of it all off the top of my head.

Bravo 2/32 Class 07-09


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## daughertyemta

AMEN..well said!  That when this new generation of soldiers ask why instead of tearing into them the army wants you to explain to them why?! WTF...yea the army has gotten soft.


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## daughertyemta

And no new reserves..They just capped that!  the army is no longer accepting anyone into the reserves..Well for the time being anyways..WTF?  Since when do we turn down people..its hard enough for some recruiters to get people to join.  lets just make it harder.:wacko:




Afflixion said:


> LOL, I got a 7500 bonus when I joined and that was the max but I didn't get a T-shirt. Now I believe they're up to 20k enlistment bonuses, you are absolutely right everyone is trying to kiss up to their superiors  in effort to get promoted and alas it works. They no longer promote via merit any more. Just the other day I saw someone who was promoted to E-6 ahead of 3 others who had more time in service and grade. They also had more promotion points... go figure.


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## Afflixion

extant said:


> I just graduated from Fort Sam Houston on July 2nd as a 68w1o.  The criteria was pretty dumbed down, but it definatly wasn't shortened to 13 weeks.  It's still the full 16 1/2 weeks.  The hardest part is still the EMT training.  The EMT training from CPR to the NREMT is 6-7 weeks.  Keep in mind there are holidays and weekends off.  The whiskey phase is pretty lame honestly.   There are absolutly no clinicals at BAMC anymore.  Each class consists of 400+ students, it's just too many for clinicals.
> 
> I'll lay out the schedule since it changes almost every cycle.
> 
> CPR > Mod 1 - 7 > Final > All Skills > NREMT > Whiskey tests 1-3 > Skills Validation > STX (All skills on crack) > FTX (Field Training Excersice) > Graduation.
> 
> The hardest part was the NREMT, once you pass this, you're almost garaunteed your graduation assuming you keep your military bearing.
> 
> All in All, the Army Combat Medic Training, did not impress me or meet my expectations I had before entering.  I'll enjoy my career at home going to college for EMT-P and RN and probably deploy with retards in the National Guard and call it a good 6-8 Years.  The Army is turning into a joke, honestly.
> 
> EDIT: Cadre are still retarded, Over night passes were stripped years ago due to sexual assaults.  Bravo 07-09 started with 490 and graduated with 291.  I received a 20k Bonus, many people received 40-60k.  Thats it's for now, if you want to know more, i'll answer, i just can't think of it all off the top of my head.
> 
> Bravo 2/32 Class 07-09



So they cut out the blood lab, clinicals, took out DS, and took out overnights? 
What do you guys do on the weekends then? I'm seriously disappointed in this all... To think this is the best the army has to offer now... No wonder why we have medics now who can barely put a tourniquet on to save their lives, horrible at IV therapy, No knowledge of phlebotomy at all... I couldn't even imagine being in the national guard now... You guys are going to be in for a rude awakening when you deploy (sorry there is no probably.) I admire the NG boys for what they do as I once was NG but you guys are at a serious loss when it comes time to deploy especially medical side, you have no additional training outside what you learned in AIT really... I hope you get to spend some quality time with your PA. Within the first week of being out of AIT my PA had taught me basic arrhythmia, sutures, insertion of a chest tube, and numerous other skills... Ask your PA as many questions as you can feasibly think of... Remember medics have an unlimited scope of practice if your PA says you can do it and has trained you on it you can do it. Unfortunately you get alot of newer PAs that won't teach you a damned thing unless you beg them. One of the primary roles of a Battalion surgeon is to teach the medics. He may limit you on your procedures but it will be better that way in the long run. (I don't need a million response on how this unlimited scope is wrong due to education... you don't know combat medicine or even Army medicine so your 2 cents are not valid here.)



> And no new reserves..They just capped that! the army is no longer accepting anyone into the reserves..Well for the time being anyways..WTF? Since when do we turn down people..its hard enough for some recruiters to get people to join. lets just make it harder.



Yes, I completely agree with you. Just the other week I got my arse chewing because I smoked a pri who was late to formation (not a first time offense,) was not mission ready, and had a clear cut case of insubordination when I questioned him and gave him his counseling statement. My commander stated I was to harsh on him and pushed him past his limit... Since when did the infantry...air assault infantry become the boy scouts? I had barely made him do 50 pushups, 100 side straddle hops, and 50 flutter kicks... If the pri can't do 50 pushups he can't get the minimum 70 our Bde "requires" ( I know it's 60 but unless you do 70 your in remedial PT), 100 side straddle hops he can't run his 2mile worth a damn. and flutter kicks...give me a break. I'm a relatively new soldier and am still appalled by this "kinder gentler army" that seems to have surfaced within the last 3 or 4 years...


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## rhan101277

So the army paramedic training is more dumbed down than civilian paramedic training at our local colleges?


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## spisco85

Military 'medics' are typically trained to the EMT-Basic level with added skills for combat. This is what we has been lowering its standards.

The military Paramedic training conducted for special forces, pararescue jumpers, navy seals, navy corpsman attached to marine recon units, rangers and 160th SOAR flight medics from what I understand is extremely intense but the thing to remember is their budget is larger for less people. Maybe someone who has first or second hand knowledge on this will be able to throw in their .02 cents.


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## Afflixion

spisco85 said:


> Military 'medics' are typically trained to the EMT-Basic level with added skills for combat. This is what we has been lowering its standards.
> 
> The military Paramedic training conducted for special forces, pararescue jumpers, navy seals, navy corpsman attached to marine recon units, rangers and 160th SOAR flight medics from what I understand is extremely intense but the thing to remember is their budget is larger for less people. Maybe someone who has first or second hand knowledge on this will be able to throw in their .02 cents.



Why the quotation marks? the term medic was coined in the military... The Army medic is trained beyond the EMT-B but only receives that certification, due to stipulations on the numbers of hours spent teaching what is what. The NREMT is in the process of producing the "NREMT-M" which is for the military and supposed to lie somewhere between the I and P qualifications. JSOC medics are trained as 18D or "special forces aidsman." They attend school after being a 68 series soldier already for 18 months on top of their SF training. In this they learn field surgery, veterinary medicine, diagnosing, advanced trauma care, dental care, and numerous other subject matter. 18Ds come out of school with their NREMT-P. The Army offers W1 school which is a highly condensed version of 18D minus the veterinary medicine and most dental medicine, F1 school which is the Flight medic course, M6 which is the army LPN school lasting 18months. Don't try to make military medics seem dumb and uneducated any 68W who has been in for a few years is more educated in some aspects than most civilian paramedics.


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## apagea99

Well, you guys are seriously raining on my parade here LOL. I've been dying to get through basic and on to Ft Sam for my 68W training. I've really been looking forward to the clinical time in the medical center, but it seems like I'm out of luck there. I joined the NG back in March with no bonus since 68W wasn't considered a critical MOS at the time. I wanted it anyway because I want to be a combat medic. I'll be serving as part of the TN Med Command, so I'm hoping they have their stuff together and will push me into as much training as possible. Also, my neighbor is after me to go for an AGR position after I'm MOSQ'd, so maybe that will also open up more training opportunities. I don't want to be the victim of a dumbed down system.


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## spisco85

Afflixion, I just put the medic in quotations for people in the civilian world. And I know that combat medics receive lots of further training. However, as we have both been stating about various military jobs in this thread is that the basic standards have been lowered a lot in recent years.


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## mycrofft

*This always happens historically as the supply of recruits gets dry.*

We civvies and oldies have clue zero about new MOS and other designators. How about a URL to reference for translation?


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## Afflixion

Lol I don't know where to look. but a jist is.

68W = "Healthcare Specialist"
91W = Field Medic (old designator prior to 68W)
-10 series is E1 - E4
-20 series is E5
-30 series is E6
-40 series is E7 - E8
-50 series is E9
68Z = Senior healthcare Sergeant (awarded to E8's and E9's)
18D = Special Operations Aidsman

ASI = Additional Skill Identifier
-W1 = Advanced combat medicine (condensed 18D school)
-M6 = LPN
-F1 = Flight Medic

JSOC = Joint Special Operations Command

Edit: Hey Mycrofft where you been?!


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## mycrofft

*Afflixion, sharpening the knives.*

Lots of real life stuff and department moving to 12 hr shifts. 

The hard sad fact is that for most trainees the only really effective training in field EMS, _*IS*_ field EMS.


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## FieldMedic2007

Well, I have been away from this site for a while now due to training and deployment but im finally in kuwait waiting to head up north. Alot of what has been said is true. I have been in the army a long time now. I signed up and did 6 yrs in the reserve as a 91b, which is what medics were before the 91w transition for those who didnt know. Back then the training was more dumbed down and hella easier, plus you didnt have to pass the nremt to even become a medic. Just pass your exams and do what your supposed to and you would be good. I have done the CMAST course which is what was brought in to condense other training for the transition and i was highly dissappointed. CMAST is no more than CLS for army medics and the only difference is that they add a few admin notes and minor training to it than when we teach CLS to our line boys. I am on my second tour out here just cant wait to get it over but the thing is, the government shouldnt dumb down medical training just to fit numbers. The war here in iraq may  be coming to an end but we still have afghanistan to deal with and we are still taking casualties. I know a big number of injuries are now due to bombs in iraq but we cant slack on med training just so some big wig can have the numbers they need.

     I used to work for a PA and am back at a lvl where we dont have one. I am hoping that we will get to work with one where we are going this time compared to my last deployment.PA's are a big part in the continuation of training for army medics from the experience i have seen. Even though the school house may push out some crappy medics some are still able to be molded to in life-saving machines given the proper mentorship and time to do so. I totally agree that some providers dont pass on their knowledge as they should and the majority of PA's that I have worked with and like were former enlisted medics. They know what you learn and since they have the new skills as a provider they also know they can teach you and get you ready for the game in the box when the time comes. Had a medic who was with me back in 08 who got pulled from our unit to fill in a slot with one of our sister units who was short a medic. I tried to go but since we just came back they wouldnt let me. Anyway she had about a month or so before she went so one of the PA's we were working for at the time basically took her under his wing and taught her alot to catch her up to speed. She had been outta the schoolhouse for about 4-6 months i would guess. She made it back safely and is better now with the experience. Training gets you so far and helps prepare you. Experience fills in the gaps.


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## boingo

25th ID?  I spent some time there in the early 90's, WOLFHOUNDS!   Hope you get back to the rock soon.


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## FieldMedic2007

Nope, I am stuck with MP's. they have their ups and downs. I dont mind sometimes. We just got to kuwait and head up north soon. I am hoping this tour doesnt get extended like my last one, that sucked. I love hawaii, it was a change of pace from korea.


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## DADDYTATTOOED

i didnt read all the way through the tread but this actually applies to me. i recently enlisted and will be going to basic in december as a 68W, i joined this forum in hopes to get a heads up on all things EMS (guess i found the right place). i guess i'm not surprised but i would have thought that the military would have invested a little more into trainning medics but i guess they have no shortage of new recruits to fill used boots and they have a huge demand for medics and standards fell because of it. 

on a side note someone posted about the enlistment bonus (for 68w you get nothing but they give you a little extra to use for schooling) if i had gone navy and became a NUKE like they wanted it would have been $60k after their AIT program better known as the NUKE pipeline.

also the army.mil website reported that they are doing a study with troops back from Iraq from airborne to gather research to help develope new tools


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## FieldMedic2007

I have recently found out that 2 of my mps in my plt recently failed outta the new 68w course back in jan sometime Of course what got them was the NREMT. They were passing everything else. So they got reclassed and are out here, but they will be a good asset for me and my plt as cls providers, lol. I will be relying on them more and mentoring them in hopes i can convince them to re-up and try to become medics again as well as try to get them their nremt when we get back to schofield. Oh well anyways this tour is gunna be different from my last one, gotta love iraq, lol.


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## RocketMedic

I went through Ft. Sam in class 08-08, D Co. I was relatively unimpressed with it as a whole. Some parts were well-done (the outdoor STX lanes, the FTX, and a few parts of the didactic course), but there's not too much else to recommend it. The class sizes are way, way too big, the companies are too large for effective leadership, and the NREMT portion for ours was treated like a joke by the vast majority of the students and cadre.

If I hadn't gone through I-school and gotten into P-school, I'm certain that I'd be SOL. My unit has perhaps five medics I'd trust, everyone else I'd have to say I don't trust their skills. Assessment, medical conditions, and assessment (again) are extremely weak. On our last FTX, the vast majority of our medics treated EVERYONE as a heatcat, but ignored a Level-2 trauma patient and sent him back to his tent (pt was c/o signifigant neck and back pain after falling from a 5-ton @ 40mph). Then we had a "cardiac arrest" who walked out of the BAS in fustration for waiting 40 minutes to be seen and screened. It even shows that my PA is refusing to teach anyone anything above BLS because he doesn't trust our skills as a unit and I'm getting fustrated because I'm not getting the opportunity to demonstrate that I can do a lot more than put on a CAT. 

Hope it gets better or that I get picked up for Flight Medic.


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