# police officer keeps man from dying relative



## amberdt03

not really ems related, just wanted to see what some of ya'll think about this. just a summary, cop pulled over a Houston Texan running back for running a red light while trying to get to the hospital to see his dying mother-in-law. even after a nurse comes out and says that they are coding her for the 3rd time and need to get him up there, the officer keeps him for another 5 min so he could lecture him about attitudes. Dallas's finest right there. i believe they said the cop kept him for 20 min. needless to say he didn't get to see her before she passed. 


http://www.wfaa.com/video/featured-index.html?nvid=346003&noad=yes


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## ffemt8978

amberdt03 said:


> not really ems related, just wanted to see what some of ya'll think about this. just a summary, cop pulled over a Houston Texan running back for running a red light while trying to get to the hospital to see his dying mother-in-law. even after a nurse comes out and says that they are coding her for the 3rd time and need to get him up there, the officer keeps him for another 5 min so he could lecture him about attitudes. Dallas's finest right there. i believe they said the cop kept him for 20 min. needless to say he didn't get to see her before she passed.
> 
> 
> http://www.wfaa.com/video/featured-index.html?nvid=346003&noad=yes



So let me get this straight...a football player runs a red light to visit a dying in-law (not blood relative), risking not only his life, but the life of every near that intersection and gets caught by the cops.  

A nurse comes out and says the driver is "needed up there"...bull.  It may be desirable for the relative to be present in a code, but by no means are they "needed."  Why would an in-law be required at a code if the rest of the family is there?

Reportedly, the cop keeps the driver on scene for 20 minutes, which may have included a lecture about the driver's attitude.  How much of that time was spent writing the ticket, waiting for the registration and license checks to come back, and trying to maintain control of the scene?  Anyone wanna take a bet on how cooperative the driver was when he got stopped?  Somehow, I don't believe that it went along the lines of, "Here's my license and registration." but more probably went along the lines of, "Why are you pulling me over?  Do you know who I am?  I have to get to the hospital so that I can watch my in-law die....etc...."

But according to you, it's the cops that are in the wrong?  :wacko:

What would you say if said football player, running the red light to see a dying in-law, caused and accident that killed/injured an innocent family?  Sorry, going to see dying family members does NOT mean that you can break the laws, regardless of who you are or what you do for a living.


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## VentMedic

Since the incident was captured on the officer's video and after being reviewed by his superiors, they accepted fault for his behavior and have dealt with it. 

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_y...F?slug=ap-nflplayer-stopped&prov=ap&type=lgns



> By the time the 26-year-old NFL player received a ticket and a lecture from Powell, about *13 minutes had passed*. When he and Collinsworth’s father entered the hospital, they learned Collinsworth was dead.





> Police officials said Powell told his commanders he believed he was doing his job, and that he drew his gun but did not point it. Kunkle said Powell was not necessarily acting improperly when he pulled his weapon out, but that once he realized what was happening should have put the gun back, apologized and offered to help the family in any way.
> 
> “His behavior, in my opinion, did not exhibit the common sense, the discretion, the compassion that we expect our officers to exhibit,” Kunkle said.


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## amberdt03

ffemt8978 said:


> So let me get this straight...a football player runs a red light to visit a dying in-law (not blood relative), risking not only his life, but the life of every near that intersection and gets caught by the cops.
> 
> A nurse comes out and says the driver is "needed up there"...bull.  It may be desirable for the relative to be present in a code, but by no means are they "needed."  Why would an in-law be required at a code if the rest of the family is there?
> 
> Reportedly, the cop keeps the driver on scene for 20 minutes, which may have included a lecture about the driver's attitude.  How much of that time was spent writing the ticket, waiting for the registration and license checks to come back, and trying to maintain control of the scene?  Anyone wanna take a bet on how cooperative the driver was when he got stopped?  *Somehow, I don't believe that it went along the lines of, "Here's my license and registration." but more probably went along the lines of, "Why are you pulling me over?  Do you know who I am?  I have to get to the hospital so that I can watch my in-law die....etc...."*
> 
> But according to you, it's the cops that are in the wrong?  :wacko:
> 
> What would you say if said football player, running the red light to see a dying in-law, caused and accident that killed/injured an innocent family?  Sorry, going to see dying family members does NOT mean that you can break the laws, regardless of who you are or what you do for a living.



actually i saw the full tape and although the driver did give a little attitude in the beginning, only because he wanted to see her before her passing, he quickly calmed down cause he realized that it would benefit him. *HE NEVER ONCE MENTIONED WHO HE WAS, so you can't say he tried to play the celebrity card. * and although he did run a red light, he stopped completely, and waited till there was no traffic, before preceding. and obviously you've never lost someone close to you. here's a link to the full video before you jump down my throat again for stating what i think. the cop even says that *"if his relative was dying he would be just as upset"*

http://www.wfaa.com/video/featured-index.html?nvid=345766


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## VentMedic

From the link in my earlier post.



> Kunkle said the video showed that Moats and his wife “exercised extraordinary patience, restraint in dealing with the behavior of our officer.”
> 
> “At no time did Mr. Moats identify himself as an NFL football player or expect any kind of special consideration,” Kunkle said. “He handled himself very, very well.”


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## Shishkabob

So let me get this right... the guy broke a law doing something very dangourse that we ALL have seen the consequences of, the cop did his job, and you guys have the audacity to berate the cop?

Seriously, this cop hate has to stop.  As long as they stay within their bounds, no one has any reason to get angry at them.



Amber, where do you get the info that he stopped completely?  I saw no complete stop at the second light he came to, and the fact that the officer had lights and sirens on BEFORE the second light goes to prove he ran TWO red lights... the one in the video and the one the cop originally pursued for.


But you know.. he had his emergency blinkers on, so it's all ok, right?


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## VentMedic

Not berating the Officer.

The football player admitted to running the light.

The Officer issued the ticket but kept his gun out his holster and continued to hold the football player. 

The Officer's chief did not like what he saw on the tape.  

Police Officers not only should be cautious with scenes but should also  know when not to become the scene.  Escalating a situation can be extremely dangerous.   Luckily the football player was not looking for a fight or this could have gone very bad. 

This is not cop hating but just hoping the P&Ps are followed to keep everyone safe.


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## ffemt8978

amberdt03 said:


> actually i saw the full tape and although the driver did give a little attitude in the beginning, only because he wanted to see her before her passing, he quickly calmed down cause he realized that it would benefit him. *HE NEVER ONCE MENTIONED WHO HE WAS, so you can't say he tried to play the celebrity card. * and although he did run a red light, he stopped completely, and waited till there was no traffic, before preceding. and obviously you've never lost someone close to you. here's a link to the full video before you jump down my throat again for stating what i think. the cop even says that *"if his relative was dying he would be just as upset"*
> 
> http://www.wfaa.com/video/featured-index.html?nvid=345766



I didn't watch the video, I was basing my reply off of the post.:blush:

And yes, I have lost relatives...a father, all of my grand parents, a nephew and a niece.  At no time did I think running a red light would make a difference in their outcome.

Great, he stopped and only proceeded when he thought traffic was clear.  I'm sorry, I didn't realize that a red light meant stop and proceed only when clear.  Then again, I thought that's what stop signs were for. 

However, the title of this thread leads to discussions like this.  Was it really the cop that kept him from seeing his dying relative, or the driver's actions that caused it?  What was the cop supposed to do?  Ignore it and let him proceed on his way?


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## VentMedic

ffemt8978 said:


> However, the title of this thread leads to discussions like this. Was it really the cop that kept him from seeing his dying relative, or the driver's actions that caused it? What was the cop supposed to do? Ignore it and let him proceed on his way?


 

The football player *admitted* to running the light.

The Officer* issued the ticket* but *kept his gun out* his holster and *continued to hold* the football player. 

The Officer's *chief did not like* what he saw on the tape. 

Quote from his chief from earlier link:



> Kunkle said the video showed that Moats and his wife *“exercised extraordinary patience, restraint in dealing with the behavior of our officer.”*
> 
> “At no time did Mr. Moats identify himself as an NFL football player or expect any kind of special consideration,” Kunkle said. *“He handled himself very, very well.” *


 
One more time:  
Police Officers not only should be cautious with scenes but should also know when not to become the scene. Escalating a situation can be extremely dangerous. Luckily the football player was not looking for a fight or this could have gone very bad. 

This is not cop hating but just hoping the P&Ps are followed to keep everyone safe.


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## JPINFV

So I watched the video. As with any other interaction with people (police or not), you can either work with the other person or work against the other person. The decision over which style to use is situation dependent. An officer shouldn't approach a gang member with a weapon the same as someone who is suicidal with a weapon. 

From what I saw, the officer definitely blew it. Obviously he didn't view the people in the car as a threat seeing how he immediately let the passengers enter the hospital. The officer even admitted that the driver slowed, stopped, and then proceed through the intersection. That is hardly 'blowing through' the intersection and, depending on traffic conditions, might not be entirely dangerous. Cars don't just appear out of no where. How often has everyone here been stopped for a good 4-5 minutes at a red light with zero cross traffic? I'll even admit that there was a light by my old work that I would regularly "run." Of course I could see in both directions down the block and it was almost no traffic on this street when I would be leaving work anyways. Illegal? Sure. Dangerous? Not at all. 

If you've got someone sitting there going off on how a relative is actively dying (sure, we know that in a case like that, the relative is dead) and you don't think that the person is lying, what the hell are you doing lecturing the person, threatening the person, and telling the person to "shut your mouth?" It's like telling a suicidal patient that they could go to jail for some sort of weapons violation. This cop made a mistake in his approach and made the situation last longer and be more stressful for EVERYONE involved. Does he need to lose his job over it? Hell no. Should he have some sort of reprimand (even if it's a non-official "You f'ing idiot" reprimand) and retraining? Definately. 

If calling the officer out if 'cop bashing,' then I guess his chief is a cop basher then. Look, I think most of us will acknowledge that the police have a tough job that requires them to enforce sometimes asinine laws (could someone again explain why the 93 south of Boston has a 55 mph speed limit again?). It's no different than getting mad at some store clerk for enforcing some policy that the clerk didn't make. Unfortunately that's life. 

Anyone wanna take bets that if the situation was reversed that the officer would be all over running emergently to the hospital to be with his dying relative? Heck, I've seen the police airlift an officer to be with his wife as she gave birth (I was at the hospital when the helicopter came in, dropped one person off, and then immediately take off). I guess to be fair, both officers should have lost their jobs and be forced to reimburse the city for the cost of fuel for the helicopter.


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## Hockey

Officer had a slight attitude, but the family wasn't following instructions very good, so it didn't help the situation.

Sorry, but your not "needed" for a dying family member.  The family member doesn't "determine" when its someones time to go.  

Either way, not good for anyone involved...


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## DR_KSIDE

OK...... Since I am a COP first and an EMT second, I feel that I get a say in this. 
First, no one including myself is above the law, what the football player did was wrong, he had ABSOLUTELY no right to break the law, failure to stop at a stop sign or light is still breaking the law, your hazard lights are not meant to be, nor were they designed to be used on moving vehicles, they are to be used when you are having trouble on the side of the road to warn other drivers to be cautious when nearing your vehicle, and running red lights, I am sorry but the only excuse is held by emergency vehicles, who show due regard for safety when going through a red light. Would I have done the same, you betcha, I would have gotten his information, informed him that he would be able to go into the hospital, and that I would be up to see him shortly, YES HE WOULD HAVE RECEIVED A CITATION, the only reason I would have let him out of my sight is because I would have had his DL and known who he was and were I can find him. This incident may have happened at night, with little traffic out there, but that is not an excuse for breaking the law and creating a real potential problem. The officer had every right to draw his weapon! You stop someone, and all of a sudden more people jump out of the car and come toward you, THIS IS HOW OFFICERS GET KILLED!!! What are people thinking these days, when an officer tells you to do something, just do it, if you comply from the beginning things might not go so bad. I have been in this situation several times and they have ALL been cited for their actions, I cannot excuse it. I am not being a hard a**, I have just seen to many accidents occur with less actions involved and don't need to have them kill anyone else. 
Second, I believe the officer was well within his duty, but could have dealt with the situation better after the full story was known. The nurse is lucky, people that interfere with our traffic stops or other situations that DON'T belong, can also be cited or arrested, if when told to leave, don't. This (my examples and thoughts) pertain to the law in my state, and the law might be a little different in Texas. Now the officer might even lose his job, now that's BS, I could see some discipline, but getting fired for doing your job is extreme, and if he does get fired, I would fight it.


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## bstone

I love when I see cops in their police cars slow down at red lights and then drive through them. Usually late at night or at intersections where there is zero traffic. And no, the cops were not on their way to emergency calls, the lights were not on, no siren- nothing. We're all guilty of doing this. At 3am on the ambulance we've all done this (ok, maybe not Ridryder, but he is as close to perfect as humanly possible). 

But seriously, this cop is young, immature and made a mountain out of a tiny, tiny, tiny molehill. The cop needs retraining and a lot of supervision until he can demonstrate he can pull someone over and issue a traffic citation without pulling his pistol.


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## VentMedic

DR_KSIDE said:


> OK...... Since I am a COP first and an EMT second, I feel that I get a say in this.
> First, no one including myself is above the law, what the football player did was wrong, he had ABSOLUTELY no right to break the law, failure to stop at a stop sign or light is still breaking the law, your hazard lights are not meant to be, nor were they designed to be used on moving vehicles, they are to be used when you are having trouble on the side of the road to warn other drivers to be cautious when nearing your vehicle, and running red lights, I am sorry but the only excuse is held by emergency vehicles, who show due regard for safety when going through a red light. Would I have done the same, you betcha, I would have gotten his information, informed him that he would be able to go into the hospital, and that I would be up to see him shortly, YES HE WOULD HAVE RECEIVED A CITATION, the only reason I would have let him out of my sight is because I would have had his DL and known who he was and were I can find him. This incident may have happened at night, with little traffic out there, but that is not an excuse for breaking the law and creating a real potential problem. The officer had every right to draw his weapon! You stop someone, and all of a sudden more people jump out of the car and come toward you, THIS IS HOW OFFICERS GET KILLED!!! What are people thinking these days, when an officer tells you to do something, just do it, if you comply from the beginning things might not go so bad. I have been in this situation several times and they have ALL been cited for their actions, I cannot excuse it. I am not being a hard a**, I have just seen to many accidents occur with less actions involved and don't need to have them kill anyone else.
> Second, I believe the officer was well within his duty, but could have dealt with the situation better after the full story was known. The nurse is lucky, people that interfere with our traffic stops or other situations that DON'T belong, can also be cited or arrested, if when told to leave, don't. This (my examples and thoughts) pertain to the law in my state, and the law might be a little different in Texas. Now the officer might even lose his job, now that's BS, I could see some discipline, but getting fired for doing your job is extreme, and if he does get fired, I would fight it.


 
You need to watch the video.

He got a ticket.

He did not resist.

One more time again: 
*Police Officers not only should be cautious with scenes but should also know when not to become the scene. Escalating a situation can be extremely dangerous.* 

If you are a Police Officer, you should know that. 

None of us were there but his chief had an opinion about this and his job is to ensure everyone including his officers stay safe. 

If you think the chief is wrong or want to play the heavy here, send him an email or call him up to tell him he is wrong. There is no indication that he is playing favoritism here for a celebrity which I don't believe this is even a well known player or trying to pacify the black community. 

There are a lot of police officers in Oakland who have been saying should of, could of and would of this week. That tragic event illustrates what happens when a traffic stop goes very wrong. But, when a person accepts his ticket and admits he was wrong for running a light, what more do you want to do to this man? Turn it into a racial incident by teaching this black man a lesson? Make him at example for all blacks driving a nice vehicle that they can not run a light and get away with it even if they accept the ticket and admit they are wrong? 

This man admitted he ran the light and accepted his ticket. It was time for the officer to move on and not continue to escalate the situation while knowing the reasons for the man's frustration. 

Watch the video.


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## DR_KSIDE

Vent, I agree with you, the officer should have left it alone after the ticket was issued, but this whole situation got dragged into the media, if it was an ordinary Joe Schmo the media probably wouldn't have given it a second thought, but I feel that because this was a "football player" this was picked up by the media quickly. So I don't believe this officer is getting the fair shot at discipline that he deserves.


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## JPINFV

DR_KSIDE said:


> OK...... Since I am a COP first and an EMT second, I feel that I get a say in this.
> First, no one including myself is above the law, what the football player did was wrong, he had ABSOLUTELY no right to break the law, failure to stop at a stop sign or light is still breaking the law, your hazard lights are not meant to be, nor were they designed to be used on moving vehicles, they are to be used when you are having trouble on the side of the road to warn other drivers to be cautious when nearing your vehicle, and running red lights, I am sorry but the only excuse is held by emergency vehicles, who show due regard for safety when going through a red light.


I don't think anyone is saying that what he did is not illegal, but as with everything, there are exceptional situations. Heck, I guess we need to start ticketing funeral processions now if the law gets a purely strict interpretation. 



> Would I have done the same, you betcha, I would have gotten his information, *informed him that he would be able to go into the hospital, and that I would be up to see him shortly*, YES HE WOULD HAVE RECEIVED A CITATION, the only reason I would have let him out of my sight is because I would have had his DL and known who he was and were I can find him.


To ticket or not to ticket is up to the officer. What's bolded, though, is what sets you apart from the officer in this incident.



> The nurse is lucky, people that interfere with our traffic stops or other situations that DON'T belong, can also be cited or arrested, if when told to leave, don't.


Should the city cop be arrested also? After all, he pled with ticketing cop to release the driver to see his relative.


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## Sasha

> Sorry, but your not "needed" for a dying family member. The family member doesn't "determine" when its someones time to go



Of course, I always take the emotional route, so here goes:

If it had been YOU and your family memeber was dying, you don't need to be there for them to die, but wouldn't you try your hardest to be there with them one last time? 

He made sure it was safe to pass, admitted he did wrong, but was still held up by a spiteful officer who seemed to feel the need to strut his authority. It doesn't take 20 minutes to write a ticket, and the lecture really could have been skipped. He isn't the guy's mother, after all.


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## ffemt8978

Hmmm....is everyone forgetting about these parts?



> He ordered Tamishia Moats, 27, to get back in the SUV, but after pausing for a few seconds, she and another woman rushed into the hospital. She was by the side of her mother, 45-year-old Jonetta Collinsworth, when she died a short time later from breast cancer.
> “Get in there,” said Powell, yelling at Tamishia Moats as she exited the vehicle. “Let me see your hands!”
> “Excuse me, my mom is dying,” Tamishia Moats said. “Do you understand?”
> Ryan Moats explained that he waited until there was no traffic before proceeding through the red light. When Powell asked for proof of insurance, Moats grew more agitated and told the officer to go find it.
> “My mother-in-law is dying! Right now! You’re wasting my time!” Moats yelled. “I don’t understand why you can’t understand that.”
> <snip>
> 
> When the exchange was at its most contentious, Powell said he could tow Moats’ SUV if he didn’t have insurance and that he could arrest him for fleeing because he didn’t immediately stop when Powell turned on his sirens. The pursuit lasted a little more than a minute.



Multiple people leave a vehicle, disobeying the officers commands, and flee the scene into the hospital, leaving the officer to deal with an agitated driver who was quite literally built like a football player.  How was the officer to know for sure, at the possible cost of his own life, that they were going to see a dying family member and not just fleeing the scene or even going to get more agitated family members to come back outside?

The officer obviously didn't keep his weapon drawn during the entire traffic stop, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to write the citation that the DA already threw out.



VentMedic said:


> He did not resist.  Nor did he, or his family cooperate and comply with the officer's demands.
> 
> One more time again:
> *Police Officers not only should be cautious with scenes but should also know when not to become the scene. Escalating a situation can be extremely dangerous.*
> 
> If you are a Police Officer, you should know that.
> 
> None of us were there but his chief had an opinion about this and his job is to ensure everyone including his officers stay safe. And the other aspect of his job is to keep the public he serves happy, and keep his department from getting sued.  All I am saying is that there may be other motives for the chief speaking out like this.
> 
> If you think the chief is wrong or want to play the heavy here, send him an email or call him up to tell him he is wrong. There is no indication that he is playing favoritism here for a celebrity which I don't believe this is even a well known player or trying to pacify the black community.
> 
> There are a lot of police officers in Oakland who have been saying should of, could of and would of this week. That tragic event illustrates what happens when a traffic stop goes very wrong. But, when a person accepts his ticket and admits he was wrong for running a light, what more do you want to do to this man? Turn it into a racial incident by teaching this black man a lesson? Make him at example for all blacks driving a nice vehicle that they can not run a light and get away with it even if they accept the ticket and admit they are wrong?
> 
> This man admitted he ran the light and accepted his ticket. It was time for the officer to move on and not continue to escalate the situation while knowing the reasons for the man's frustration.



So admitting you did something wrong and accepting the ticket is all it takes?  How about NOT breaking the law in the first place?  How about obeying the police officer during the traffic stop?  How about not yelling at the cop during the traffic stop?


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## Shishkabob

Fact-- In the video alone, the driver blew 1 stop light, 2 stop signs, and refused to stop for the police officer.  He also blew another stop light, which was the initiating offense.

Anyone else doing that would have been arrested.




I don't know what video the chief saw, but the player had a MAJOR attitude the first 4 minutes of the video.  He told the cop to get his own insurance!  Sorry, but that's not being "patient".  Did he correct his attitude later?  Yeah, but that doesn't excuse the first 4 minutes.


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## VentMedic

ffemt8978 said:


> So admitting you did something wrong and accepting the ticket is all it takes? How about NOT breaking the law in the first place? How about obeying the police officer during the traffic stop? How about not yelling at the cop during the traffic stop?


 
Not too long ago, did you not admit to regularly driving 95 mph with a patient on board to the hospital? How would you react if an LEO stopped you for your disregard for safety? I bet you would pitch a fit even if your state law says you can not exceed the speed limit to that excess.



> And the other aspect of his job is to keep the public he serves happy, and keep his department from getting sued. All I am saying is that there may be other motives for the chief speaking out like this.


 
So you do believe the chief did this because the guy was black? That starts to make your position against the football player very suspicious for your own agenda or reasoning in this situation.


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## Shishkabob

I take solace in the fact that the officer will not lose his job, no matter how stupid the press acts, or how hard civilians push.

The union will rip the PD a new one if they even thought of firing him.


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## ffemt8978

VentMedic said:


> Not too long ago, did you not admit to regularly driving 95 mph with a patient on board to the hospital? How would you react if an LEO stopped you for your disregard for safety? I bet you would pitch a fit even if your state law says you can not exceed the speed limit to that excess.
> 
> 
> 
> So you do believe the chief did this because the guy was black? That starts to make your position against the football player very suspicious for your own agenda or reasoning in this situation.



First of all, I'm not the driver when we're going that fast...I'm in back with the patient.  But if LE wanted to pull us over, then we're going to pull over and take it up with the chain of command at a later time and not on scene. Secondly, when we're driving that fast, we're on an open two lane highway in the middle of the desert, with a good 6-10 mile visibility.  Thirdly, when we're going that fast, it's not to go to see a dying relative...we're trying to prevent somebody from dying.  Speed, in and of itself, does not automatically create a situation where we are disregarding safety.

No, I don't believe the chief did this because the guy was black.  I don't know why the chief did this, nor do you.  Is it possible that the chief is just being altruistic, and saw one of his officers do something wrong and he wanted to make amends for it?  Maybe.  Is it possible that the chief saw an opportunity to get rid of an officer that has seven civilian complaints against him?  Maybe.  None of us know enough about the internal politics of that department to definitively state why the chief took the actions he did.

Or did your suspicion of my position cause you to miss where I said 





> there may be other motives for the chief speaking out like this.


?


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## AJ Hidell

I was a police officer for many years.  Most of my closest friends are still police officers, including Dallas police officers.  I tend to give police officers the benefit of the doubt in judgement call situations, because I know that it is not an easy job, and sooner or later, we all make the wrong call.

That said, this officer was wrong.  He displayed extremely poor judgement in the handling of this situation once it became obvious what was going on.  You've got the guy's car.  Get his license and let him go.  He'll be back.  If not, well it was only traffic to begin with.  Dallas police policy doesn't even allow for pursuits for traffic offenses only.  This display of extremely poor judgement will seriously erode confidence in this officer, so yes, he will face discipline, as well as it probably impeding his career progress for the foreseeable future.  It should.



Linuss said:


> The union will rip the PD a new one if they even thought of firing him.


LOL!  You obviously don't know much about DPD or their union.  They are not known for their ability to "rip" anyone a new one.  In fact, in Texas style, they are barely a union at all in that respect.  Combine that with the long established fact that Chief Kunkle does not stand by his officers, even when they are right, much less when they are wrong, and you can bet that this officer is going to be the one taking it in the shorts.  Will he be fired?  Nah.  Not a chance.  You're absolutely right about that.  He violated no laws.  That's what it takes to get fired.  Even officers who beat their wives aren't fired.  But he was wrong, and Kunkle will make sure he gets that message loud and clear.

Now, although I do feel the officer was out of line here, I have to also play devil's advocate and suggest that he really did not deny the guy a final moment with his dying mother-in-law that he is claiming.  She was coding before they even arrived.  There was no parting words to be had.  Most likely, they arrived only to be stuck in the waiting room until the code was called.  I doubt his wife even went into the room before he did.  No, that doesn't make the officer's actions right.  I would not suggest that.  I just think we need to look at the facts realistically, and not get too caught up in emotional details that are not necessarily fact.


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## VentMedic

ffemt8978 said:


> Secondly, when *we're driving that fast, we're on an open two lane highway in the middle of the desert*, with a good 6-10 mile visibility.


But of course that justifies breaking the law and racing at 95 mph in a large truck. This black football player did slow down and made sure no one was in the intersection before going through the light.



ffemt8978 said:


> Thirdly, when we're going that fast, it's not to go to see a dying relative...we're trying to prevent somebody from dying. Speed, in and of itself, does not automatically create a situation where we are disregarding safety.


 
95 mph in an ambulance? How could you possibly control a top heavy vehicle like that if you blow a tire? 

Again, you are making excuses for breaking the law. 

It doesn't matter who is driving. The fact is you are aware of how fast you are going. 

If you crash, all crash and that includes the patient. 

One of the first rules of EMS: Don't let the patient's emergency become your emergency. 

For the family in this scene, the wife's mother was dying at the age of 45. That was an emergency to them. Why are you being so adamant about punishing these people for doing something stupid when emotions are running high? The guy admitted he was wrong. He did not make a threatening move toward the officer. The ticket was issued. If we use your same "I'm not the one driving argument", the wife should have been free to go. Not that it was the wisest for her to get out but again, if we use your excuse... 
Double standards? Or, is it a race issue for this LEO and/or you?

If that 45 y/o patient was dying in the back of your truck, would you have seen fit to get her to the hospital doing 95 mph? Or, for some reason is her life not worth much? Do you believe patients should die alone without their family? Maybe just "certain" families? Like those of football players? That'll teach him a lesson and his wife also.

The officer should have known when this situation was over and ceased to escalate it.


----------



## VentMedic

AJ Hidell said:


> She was coding before they even arrived. There was no parting words to be had. Most likely, they arrived only to be stuck in the waiting room until the code was called. I doubt his wife even went into the room before he did. No, that doesn't make the officer's actions right. I would not suggest that. I just think we need to look at the facts realistically, and not get too caught up in emotional details that are not necessarily fact.


 
The chances here is the woman was a DNR and a patient not to be coded or the nurse would not have been able to leave the bedside to be in the parking lot. No patient deserves to die alone especially if it is out of spite. Even if the patient is unconscious, it gives the family closure. To be so close and yet unable to be by a loved one's side has got to be traumatic for the family. 

Sidenote: We do allow families to be at the bedside for codes to let them see everything is being done for their loved one.


----------



## AJ Hidell

ffemt8978 said:


> Speed, in and of itself, does not automatically create a situation where we are disregarding safety.


It also does not have any proven benefit to patient outcome.  There is NO justification for that kind of driving.  You cannot possibly believe that the benefits outweigh the risk, or that you would keep your job or license if it ever resulted in a collision.


----------



## Sasha

> First of all, I'm not the driver when we're going that fast...I'm in back with the patient. But if LE wanted to pull us over, then we're going to pull over and take it up with the chain of command at a later time and not on scene. Secondly, when we're driving that fast, we're on an open two lane highway in the middle of the desert, with a good 6-10 mile visibility. Thirdly, when we're going that fast, it's not to go to see a dying relative...we're trying to prevent somebody from dying. .Speed, in and of itself, does not automatically create a situation where we are disregarding safety



So it's okay for you to break the law, but no one else?



> .Speed, in and of itself, does not automatically create a situation where we are disregarding safety



Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't speed limits put in place for safety reasons? Ambulances are a lot harder to control then regular cars. Top heavy, turn poorly, etc.

Granted the football player himself wasn't dying, but a family member was. No, him getting there wouldn't have saved her life, but perhaps having him there would have made her passing a bit more comfortable for her and for him. This is just plain wrong. Once the person is dead you can't rewind their last few minutes so you can be with them. 



> I take solace in the fact that the officer will not lose his job, no matter how stupid the press acts, or how hard civilians push.
> 
> The union will rip the PD a new one if they even thought of firing him.



Why are you such a cop lover? Did you want to be one or something? It seems in your eyes, officers can do no wrong, even when they deny a man to see his dying relative alive one last time.


----------



## Kookaburra

Ha ha, I just came from another forum where people are up in arms about this. Of course, it's not an Emergency Services board, so all of the reactions are, "I WOULD DO THE SAME THING TOOOOOO!"

Holy crap, I have to drive on the same roads as these people.


----------



## Sasha

> Double standards? Or, is it a race issue for this LEO and/or you?
> 
> If that 45 y/o patient was dying in the back of your truck, would you have seen fit to get her to the hospital doing 95 mph? Or, for some reason is her life not worth much? Do you believe patients should die alone without their family? Maybe just "certain" families? Like those of football players? That'll teach him a lesson and his wife also.
> 
> The officer should have known when this situation was over and ceased to escalate it



I don't think this is about race with ffemt or anyone on this board. I can't speak for the officer, but you seem to be the only one trying to make this a race issue.


----------



## Kookaburra

Sorry to hijack this thread, but does anyone else get really...ticked off when they hear people talking about running red lights and such? On the other board I'm afraid I got a bit heated with everyone saying they would have done the same thing.


----------



## medic417

AJ Hidell said:


> It also does not have any proven benefit to patient outcome.  There is NO justification for that kind of driving.  You cannot possibly believe that the benefits outweigh the risk, or that you would keep your job or license if it ever resulted in a collision.



The ambulance tires have a speed and load rating.  When you factor the extreme weight how much does that affect the load and speed rating?  

My guess w/o doing research would be a significant impact but I could be wrong.  Having done 90 mile plus to the hospital for most of my EMS career I can honestly say 5 - 15 minutes saved doesn't really make any difference 99.9% of the time.  And if you get thrown at 90mph plus which I have when we used to push the pedal all the way to the floor it hurts.  So slow done don't become a casualty of EMS.


----------



## VentMedic

medic417 said:


> The ambulance tires have a speed and load rating. When you factor the extreme weight how much does that affect the load and speed rating?
> 
> My guess w/o doing research would be a significant impact but I could be wrong. Having done 90 mile plus to the hospital for most of my EMS career I can honestly say 5 - 15 minutes saved doesn't really make any difference 99.9% of the time. And if you get thrown at 90mph plus which I have when we used to push the pedal all the way to the floor it hurts. So slow done don't become a casualty of EMS.


 
That would depend on the condition of the tires, inflation or over inflation, time of day, temperature etc. 

Here is a fairly recent accident in Florida, speed 30-35 mph, where the tires were one of the causes investigated.
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/reports/face200512.html

While we are side tracked, here is a good article about the steering, suspension and tires of an ambulance.

http://www.emsresponder.com/print/E...-and-P--Steering--Suspension-and-Tires/1$2225


*Kookaburra *
This info may also answer your questions.
Safety first.  It does no one any good if the EMS providers become the scene of an emergency themselves.


----------



## EMTinNEPA

He ran a red light, drove recklessly, and loudly argued with a cop for over 10 minutes in a hospital parking lot at almost 0200 to see hospital staff violently pound on his mother-in-law's chest, blow air into a tube they crammed down her throat, inject chemicals into a tube they stabbed into her vein, and send 360 joules firing through her body, none of which involves him, meaning his presence is irrelevant.  He can't talk to her because, well, she's dead.  And everybody is blaming the cop.

Pathetic.


----------



## VentMedic

EMTinNEPA said:


> He ran a red light, drove recklessly, and loudly argued with a cop for over 10 minutes in a hospital parking lot at almost 0200 to see hospital staff violently pound on his mother-in-law's chest, blow air into a tube they crammed down her throat, inject chemicals into a tube they stabbed into her vein, and send 360 joules firing through her body, none of which involves him, meaning his presence is irrelevant. He can't talk to her because, well, she's dead. And everybody is blaming the cop.
> 
> Pathetic.


 
Do you know this for a fact since she was already diagnosed with cancer and was terminal?

Have you ever seen a hospice or comfort care suite set up at a hospital? You know, one that allows the patient to die with their family present without all that heroic stuff?

No one is blaming the cop. His chief will take care of whatever punishment or retraining he needs to handle various situations and to deal with the public more effectively. Just like an under aggressive approach can get an LEO killed, so can an over aggressive approach.


----------



## Ridryder911

My impression was the Cop was a Arsehole and just another badge toting ego civil servant with a loaded gun. 

Sorry, he could have obtained the information and cited the person within a reasonable time but NO he wanted to show his authority! Again, egotistic. 

Many times I have seen police excuse such as this case should have been. They are to enforce the laws but as well as we all know can have the understanding of the intent. I am sure, he has excused many others before this event but again, no he demonstrated he wanted to display his authority. 

I personally hope the immediate family takes litigation against him and is able to take his pension and monetary means. Maybe, he will learn what compassion means. Meanwhile, have a nice desk job jerk !

R/r 911


----------



## amberdt03

EMTinNEPA said:


> He ran a red light, drove recklessly, and loudly argued with a cop for over 10 minutes in a hospital parking lot at almost 0200 to see hospital staff violently pound on his mother-in-law's chest, blow air into a tube they crammed down her throat, inject chemicals into a tube they stabbed into her vein, and send 360 joules firing through her body, none of which involves him, meaning his presence is irrelevant.  He can't talk to her because, well, she's dead.  And everybody is blaming the cop.
> 
> Pathetic.



he didn't argue with the cop for over 10 min because he realized quickly that that was getting him nowhere. i'm not saying that he didn't break the law, cause he did, but he didn't do it carelessly, like say driving 95mph in an ambulance or the cop who didn't even stop completely at the first red light. all the cop had to do was put his gun away, give him a ticket, and let him go, not lecture him. he knew he was wrong. no one is saying that the hospital staff "needs" him to come help give cpr or push meds, the family is the one who "needs" him up there. and yes he can talk to her, her being dead doesn't prevent his ability to speak. yeah obviously she can't talk back, but i'm sure they know that. it the family it was very important to get to her side, before staff called her. that is why the hospital called them and told them to get up there because she was circling the drain.


----------



## amberdt03

Ridryder911 said:


> I personally hope the immediate family takes litigation against him and is able to take his pension and monetary means.
> 
> R/r 911



i don't that taking the cops money is going to help the family. its not going to bring their mom back, and i seriously doubt that they are hurting for money.


----------



## JPINFV

EMTinNEPA said:


> He ran a red light, drove recklessly, and loudly argued with a cop for over 10 minutes in a hospital parking lot at almost 0200 to see hospital staff violently pound on his mother-in-law's chest, blow air into a tube they crammed down her throat, inject chemicals into a tube they stabbed into her vein, and send 360 joules firing through her body, none of which involves him, meaning his presence is irrelevant.  He can't talk to her because, well, she's dead.  And everybody is blaming the cop.
> 
> Pathetic.



Did you watch the same video that I watched? You know, when your future wife is having a baby and is already at the hospital, you better follow every single law on the way to the hospital, including speed limits. Same if one of your relatives ever gets sick. You don't -have- to be there, after all, for any of those events.


----------



## EMTinNEPA

amberdt03 said:


> he didn't argue with the cop for over 10 min because he realized quickly that that was getting him nowhere. i'm not saying that he didn't break the law, cause he did, but he didn't do it carelessly, like say driving 95mph in an ambulance or the cop who didn't even stop completely at the first red light. all the cop had to do was put his gun away, give him a ticket, and let him go, not lecture him. he knew he was wrong. no one is saying that the hospital staff "needs" him to come help give cpr or push meds, the family is the one who "needs" him up there. and yes he can talk to her, her being dead doesn't prevent his ability to speak. yeah obviously she can't talk back, but i'm sure they know that. it the family it was very important to get to her side, before staff called her. that is why the hospital called them and told them to get up there because she was circling the drain.



And what's the point?  Why would you WANT to see a loved one be declared dead?  It doesn't alter the outcome in any way, and I seriously doubt you would want that to be one of the last memories you have of that person.


----------



## EMTinNEPA

JPINFV said:


> Did you watch the same video that I watched? You know, when your future wife is having a baby and is already at the hospital, you better follow every single law on the way to the hospital, including speed limits. Same if one of your relatives ever gets sick. You don't -have- to be there, after all, for any of those events.



Never getting married, thanks, and if I do, then yes I DO have to be there for the birth because the person(s) involved will (hopefully) still be alive for me to answer to.  The dead can't give a crap.  And I've had plenty of sick and dying relatives.  But I never broke the law to go watch them die.  I make the most of what time I have with them.


----------



## VentMedic

amberdt03 said:


> i don't that taking the cops money is going to help the family. its not going to bring their mom back, and i seriously doubt that they are hurting for money.


 
Lawsuits can also be a good way to see that retraining or addtional education happens in a department.  It doesn't have to always be about the money.

Example:
Rosenbaum vs Washington D.C. EMS


----------



## EMTinNEPA

VentMedic said:


> Lawsuits can also be a good way to see that retraining or addtional education happens in a department.  It doesn't have to always be about the money.
> 
> Example:
> Rosenbaum vs Washington D.C. EMS



Or it can put a service out of business, leaving the citizens of a community without an ambulance and waiting longer for mutual aid units when minutes might matter.


----------



## amberdt03

EMTinNEPA said:


> And what's the point?  Why would you WANT to see a loved one be declared dead?  It doesn't alter the outcome in any way, and I seriously doubt you would want that to be one of the last memories you have of that person.



for some people it helps, obviously not for you, but unfortunately not everyone can be as awesome as you are.(i'm just kidding please don't get mad)


----------



## amberdt03

VentMedic said:


> Lawsuits can also be a good way to see that retraining or addtional education happens in a department.  It doesn't have to always be about the money.
> 
> Example:
> Rosenbaum vs Washington D.C. EMS



i agree it doesn't have to be about money, but ridryder was saying he hopes the family takes the officer's pension


----------



## Veneficus

Kookaburra said:


> Sorry to hijack this thread, but does anyone else get really...ticked off when they hear people talking about running red lights and such? On the other board I'm afraid I got a bit heated with everyone saying they would have done the same thing.



"The rules are more like guidlines"

Words I live by. Besides, while I do quite appreciate law enforcement, people are not always going to react the way any given official wants. Additionally it is not the role of LEOs to administer justice, in our society that is the responsibility of the judge.

Safety is very admirable, but we are not the United Nanny States of America, though sometimes I think that would be more appropriate.


----------



## JPINFV

EMTinNEPA said:


> if I do, then yes I DO have to be there for the birth because the person(s) involved will (hopefully) still be alive for me to answer to.  The dead can't give a crap.  And I've had plenty of sick and dying relatives.  But I never broke the law to go watch them die.  I make the most of what time I have with them.



Why do you have to be there? The baby is going to come out into trained hands regardless of if you are there or not. After all, the hospital staff can coach the mother and hold her hand. "None of which involves *you*, meaning *your* presence is irrelevant." Besides the dead, how about caring and comforting the living that are watching the relative die? Maybe they'd like to have a little emotional support.


----------



## Ridryder911

EMTinNEPA said:


> Never getting married, thanks, and if I do, then yes I DO have to be there for the birth because the person(s) involved will (hopefully) still be alive for me to answer to.  The dead can't give a crap.  And I've had plenty of sick and dying relatives.  But I never broke the law to go watch them die.  I make the most of what time I have with them.



How old are you? Apparently you have never truly lost a real loved one yet! Tell me after you really have lost a loved one or have a seriously ill child that is in ICU that a simple traffic violation given by a civil servant takes more precedence and which is more important! Until then you really don't know what you would do. 

Again, there are more appropriate ways of dealing with this than what he did. It was his egotistic and superiority complex that caused the problem. He was going to show them who was in charge and he did. I guess now, he really found out who was really in charge, huh? 

I doubt this is really over, if the family is pissed off enough they can keep him in personal litigation for years enough to break him and I hope they do.


----------



## VentMedic

EMTinNEPA said:


> Never getting married, thanks, and if I do, then yes I DO have to be there for the birth because the person(s) involved will (hopefully) still be alive for me to answer to. The dead can't give a crap. And I've had plenty of sick and dying relatives. But I never broke the law to go watch them die. I make the most of what time I have with them.


 
Because you have little compassion for the suffering of others does not mean all in medicine feel that way. Maybe you and your relatives are not close. No one deserves to die alone. Hospitals do notify loved ones if death is near. The patients have a right to have their families nearby when they are dying. That is why hospitals make the exception on visiting hours to acommondate the families of those who are seriously ill or dying. 

People don't always die with the heroics you mentioned. When a patient is in comfort care in a hospital, the patient can be conscious, alert and talking when they may start to show signs of weakening. That is when the family is called. 

If the baby is born alive, hopefully it will still be alive later so no, you don't have to be at the birth. And, if the baby dies at birth, you again don't have to be there even for your wife just like your statements for this other family not needing to be there for anyone at the time of death.  I, myself, find this difficult to even type something like this but I find your statements even harder to comprehend.

Your inexperience and lack of education on medical issues are showing.


----------



## EMTinNEPA

JPINFV said:


> Why do you have to be there? The baby is going to come out into trained hands regardless of if you are there or not. After all, the hospital staff can coach the mother and hold her hand. "None of which involves EMTinNEPA, meaning [your] presence is irrelevant." Besides the dead, how about caring and comforting the living that are watching the relative die? Maybe they'd like to have a little emotional support.



Because the mother will make my life a living hell forever if I'm not there!

Emotional support changes nothing.  Am I the only one who doesn't see the point in flying to the hospital like a bat out of hell to see a relative who doesn't have a pulse and isn't breathing continue to not have a pulse and not breath?


----------



## JPINFV

EMTinNEPA said:


> Because the mother will make my life a living hell forever if I'm not there!


So you can speak to the family dynamics of Mr. Moat's family, or does it only matter if someone makes your life a living hell?


----------



## VentMedic

EMTinNEPA said:


> Emotional support changes nothing. Am I the only one who doesn't see the point in flying to the hospital like a bat out of hell to see a relative who doesn't have a pulse and isn't breathing continue to not have a pulse and not breath?


 
No where did they say this patient was already dead. They said she was dying.

*People don't always die with the heroics you mentioned earlier. When a patient is in comfort care in a hospital, the patient can be conscious, alert and talking when they may start to show signs of weakening. That is when the family is called. *

*The patient may have a few hours or a few minutes left.*


----------



## EMTinNEPA

VentMedic said:


> Your inexperience and lack of education on medical issues are showing.



As are your self-righteousness and misguided notions of superiority and competence based on seniority, as well as your eagerness to make feeble attempts to discredit those who don't agree with you by throwing said seniority around.

If somebody is going to die, they're going to die.  Why would you want your last memories of this person to be them slowly not being able to breath before their heart stopped forever?  You make the most out of what time you have with them.  Leave nothing unresolved.  Then you won't have to drive like a maniac because you feel you have something "unfinished".  Besides, getting T-boned while running a red light will just leave two funerals for the family to go to instead of one.


----------



## Ridryder911

EMTinNEPA said:


> Because the mother will make my life a living hell forever if I'm not there!
> 
> Emotional support changes nothing.  Am I the only one who doesn't see the point in flying to the hospital like a bat out of hell to see a relative who doesn't have a pulse and isn't breathing continue to not have a pulse and not breath?



First he was not "flying" as it was even described. Again, come and post when an immediate family member dies and tell me that you did not mind not being there, or an immediate family member is seriously ill or injured and you are going to be "rationale" and not mind the delay. Until then you are presuming and lack life experience.

Why did the officer not just issue the ticket and be done with it instead of delaying? Why condone a badge toting ego? He could had written the simple citation and left it on the windshield as I have seen it done.... or here is new one... be compassionate! Wow! 

There are plenty of good LEO out there but there are way too many that we give a little bit of authority and tin badge with a loaded gun and we get what we saw. 

Driving ordinances are designed for safety not for the letter of the law. The intent of why, the law was developed should be evaluated. This citation would have been thrown out of court as the officer realized it. Again, it was his attitude and egotism that was the problem not the occurrence. He wanted to demonstrate his superiority and power alike many do. The wise ones learn to use common sense, apperantly this one refused to do so.


----------



## EMTinNEPA

Ridryder911 said:


> How old are you? Apparently you have never truly lost a real loved one yet!



I've lost three of my grandparents, who practically raised me because my parents were too busy not giving a crap.  Who the hell do you think you are to tell me that I didn't love my grandparents?


----------



## AJ Hidell

EMTinNEPA said:


> Emotional support changes nothing.  Am I the only one who doesn't see the point in flying to the hospital like a bat out of hell to see a relative who doesn't have a pulse and isn't breathing continue to not have a pulse and not breath?


Not that it makes a difference, but you're assuming they were told that.  Fifty bucks says they were not told that, if in fact it were even true.


----------



## Kookaburra

JPINFV said:


> "None of which involves Kookaburra, meaning [your] presence is irrelevant."




Umm, why are you dragging me into this?


----------



## EMTinNEPA

Ridryder911 said:


> Why did the officer not just issue the ticket and be done with it instead of delaying? Why condone a badge toting ego?



Because they were getting out of the car and going into the hospital before the cop had even finished parking his car.  How was the cop supposed to know if they really had a dying relative?  A cop I spoke to has heard three dying relative stories, NONE of which turned out to be true.  The cop had a job to do.  I don't know if you watched the same video I did, but shouting at a cop semi-hysterically and not showing a license or insurance when asked to is NOT going to get the cop to let you go inside in a timely manner.


----------



## medic417

Kookaburra said:


> Umm, why are you dragging me into this?



LOL.  The innocent are always casualty's of war.


----------



## Veneficus

EMTinNEPA said:


> Because the mother will make my life a living hell forever if I'm not there!
> 
> Emotional support changes nothing.  Am I the only one who doesn't see the point in flying to the hospital like a bat out of hell to see a relative who doesn't have a pulse and isn't breathing continue to not have a pulse and not breath?



I do not beleive people should "fly like a bat out of hell"

However, I see a distincton between that and "driving with due regard for public safety." Otherwise there would be no reason to use lights and sirens (or any other exception to traffic laws) to respond to an "emergency." Especially a call that came in an unresponsive, not breathing. according to your perspective, dead is dead right?

I have been injured to the point of unconscious, I could hear what people were saying, though I could not respond. It is nice to hear a familiar voice. 

Be careful in your righteousness, there is more to medicine than science. There is also humanity.


----------



## Kookaburra

Veneficus said:


> Safety is very admirable, but we are not the United Nanny States of America, though sometimes I think that would be more appropriate.



I guess my gut reaction to the running a red light is because it's such a problem in my area.


----------



## AJ Hidell

EMTinNEPA said:


> Because they were getting out of the car and going into the hospital before the cop had even finished parking his car.  How was the cop supposed to know if they really had a dying relative?


It doesn't matter.  The only violations he had on them were traffic, and there was only one driver in that vehicle.  The driver, to his credit, stayed with the vehicle.  That is all the officer needed.  And moments later, he didn't even need that.


----------



## amberdt03

Kookaburra said:


> Umm, why are you dragging me into this?



if you go back and look at his thread it says my name. i don't see where it show your's. i'm confused. :wacko: lol.


----------



## VentMedic

EMTinNEPA said:


> How was the cop supposed to know if they really had a dying relative? A cop I spoke to has heard three dying relative stories, NONE of which turned out to be true.


 
Did any of them have medical personnel from the hospital backing up their story in the parking? 

Watch the video.  Read the article.  Get your facts straight.


----------



## EMTinNEPA

AJ Hidell said:


> It doesn't matter.  The only violations he had on them were traffic, and there was only one driver in that vehicle.  The driver, to his credit, stayed with the vehicle.  That is all the officer needed.  And moments later, he didn't even need that.



To repeat, a cop I spoke to had three "dying relative" stories, NONE of which turned out to be true.  For all the cop knew, the others were going inside to dispose of contraband.  If they had stayed in the car and calmly explained what was going on, I doubt there would have been a problem.


----------



## JPINFV

Kookaburra said:


> Umm, why are you dragging me into this?



It's meant to be a "[ you ]" without the spaces, but I guess that changes it to being the name of the person reading it. Example: [you]  

Anyone remember the April Fool's Day thread that used this?

http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=7182


----------



## Ridryder911

EMTinNEPA said:


> Never getting married, thanks, and if I do, then yes I DO have to be there for the birth because the person(s) involved will (hopefully) still be alive for me to answer to.  The dead can't give a crap.  And I've had plenty of sick and dying relatives.  But I never broke the law to go watch them die.  I make the most of what time I have with them.





EMTinNEPA said:


> I've lost three of my grandparents, who practically raised me because my parents were too busy not giving a crap.  Who the hell do you think you are to tell me that I didn't love my grandparents?



Wow! Too much information there but again I am personally seeing a trend. We can see where such positions as those as LEO, has have to be empathetic and have compassion; just alike our profession. This is the reason pre-behavioral and psychiatric evaluations are given to LEO and should be given to those entering EMS as well. 

Not everything in life is black & white. Laws are based upon the interperation of the circumstances and enforcing is done with the same intent everyday. It is called "thinking skills and making rationale decisions". 


R/r 911


----------



## amberdt03

EMTinNEPA said:


> To repeat, a cop I spoke to had three "dying relative" stories, NONE of which turned out to be true.  For all the cop knew, the others were going inside to dispose of contraband.  If they had stayed in the car and calmly explained what was going on, I doubt there would have been a problem.



obviously their emotions were running high, the first thing that was said was "my mother is dying" granted the daughter was yelling, but i'm sure it was because she knew she didn't have much time and not because they were being pulled over.


----------



## EMTinNEPA

VentMedic said:


> Did any of them have medical personnel from the hospital backing up their story in the parking?
> 
> Watch the video.  Read the article.  Get your facts straight.



The medical personnel came out HOW long into the video?  The video is 16 minutes long and it from my recollection, it was around the 8-10 minute mark.  The officer stepped out of his car to the car's occupants already getting out at the two minute mark.  That leaves 2-8 minutes of the driver going back and forth with the cop, screaming "my mother-in-law is dying!" and not just giving the officer his license, registration, and proof of insurance, letting the officer write the ticket, and then going inside to mourn over a (soon-to-be) corpse.


----------



## Kookaburra

JPINFV said:


> It's meant to be a "[ you ]" without the spaces, but I guess that changes it to being the name of the person reading it. Kookaburra




Ah ha. Yup, my name is at the back end of that, the quote stripped out the tags.

I was all "What the heck did I do????" LOL


----------



## EMTinNEPA

Ridryder911 said:


> Wow! Too much information there



Don't make assumptions about what I've lost then.


----------



## VentMedic

EMTinNEPA said:


> The medical personnel came out HOW long into the video? The video is 16 minutes long and it from my recollection, it was around the 8-10 minute mark. The officer stepped out of his car to the car's occupants already getting out at the two minute mark. That leaves 2-8 minutes of the driver going back and forth with the cop, screaming "*my mother-in-law is dying!*" and not just giving the officer his license, registration, and proof of insurance, letting the officer write the ticket, and then going inside to* mourn over a (soon-to-be) corpse*.


 
Do you not understand the difference between dying and dead?


----------



## Sasha

EMTinNEPA said:


> As are your self-righteousness and misguided notions of superiority and competence based on seniority, as well as your eagerness to make feeble attempts to discredit those who don't agree with you by throwing said seniority around.
> 
> If somebody is going to die, they're going to die.  Why would you want your last memories of this person to be them slowly not being able to breath before their heart stopped forever?  You make the most out of what time you have with them.  Leave nothing unresolved.  Then you won't have to drive like a maniac because you feel you have something "unfinished".  Besides, getting T-boned while running a red light will just leave two funerals for the family to go to instead of one.



For someone with such a self proclaimed interest in death, you just don't seem to be getting it. Not everyone is like you. Some find comfort in having family or being with family during their moments. No one wants to die alone. it's a personal comfort. for both the living and dying. if we follow your logic, why does anyone get visitors in the hospital? it's not like it makes much of a difference in their outcome.


----------



## EMTinNEPA

VentMedic said:


> Do you not understand the difference between dying and dead?



That's why I placed "soon to be" in parenthesis, because she may or may not have been dead when they arrived, and if she wasn't, she was still dying.


----------



## VentMedic

EMTinNEPA said:


> Don't make assumptions about what I've lost then.


 
He didn't have to.  You laid it all out there which is why he stated "too much information".


----------



## EMTinNEPA

VentMedic said:


> He didn't have to.  You laid it all out there which is why he stated "too much information".



He made the assumption first, as shown in the quote at the top of my post.


----------



## VentMedic

EMTinNEPA said:


> That's why I placed "soon to be" in parenthesis, because she may or may not have been dead when they arrived, and if she wasn't, she was still dying.


 
So what is so wrong with being by the patient's side when they are dying?

Do you have a problem with the process of death? Is that why you weren't by the side of those you have lost?

That doesn't mean everyone has those same issues with the dying process.


----------



## EMTinNEPA

VentMedic said:


> So what is so wrong with being by the patient's side when they are dying?
> 
> Do you have a problem with the process of death? Is that why you weren't by the side of those you have lost?
> 
> That doesn't mean everyone has those same issues with the dying process.



There was a medic I worked with once... every time he and I did a shift on the same truck we got a DOA.  We worked together a lot.  So I've seen plenty of death.  I just don't see the point in risking death to witness death.


----------



## VentMedic

EMTinNEPA said:


> There was a medic I worked with once... every time he and I did a shift on the same truck we got a DOA. We worked together a lot. So I've seen plenty of death. I just don't see the point in risking death to witness death.


 
You didn't answer any of the questions.

Do you honestly think that to "witness death" was what the family was rushing in there far? 

The patient WAS NOT dead at the time of the call.


----------



## reaper

Dude, You need to relax and quit taking everything personal! When you get more experience dealing with stuff like this, you will see what they are talking about!


----------



## Ridryder911

EMTinNEPA said:


> There was a medic I worked with once... every time he and I did a shift on the same truck we got a DOA.  We worked together a lot.  So I've seen plenty of death.  I just don't see the point in risking death to witness death.




There is much difference in seeing and being part of the grieving process. I have too seen many deaths and even worked with the M.E. services but this did not excuse the understanding of the grieving process or not recognizing the emotional impact of those grieving. In fact, part of the problem of EMS is we do not properly educate those with the psychology of death & dying. It is the final act of living. 

Again, I believe we should screen those that enter this profession better. This profession is all about being empathetic (not sympathetic) and major part of this job is being compassionate and having an understanding. It is far much more important and in comparison will be used a heck of lot more than anything that was in a EMT book. 

The officer did not demonstrate either one, as he should have. Now; his career has been blemished forever. He forgot his primary role over enforcing the letter of the law. 

R/r 911


----------



## EMTinNEPA

VentMedic said:


> You didn't answer any of the questions.
> 
> Do you honestly think that to "witness death" was what the family was rushing in there far?
> 
> The patient WAS NOT dead at the time of the call.



I answered your second and third questions.

Patient was not dead at the time of the call, but the patient may have been dead when they got there.  No, they weren't going to witness death, but why break the law and potentially endanger your own life and the lives of others when you might get there too late, especially when you know you aren't going to make a difference either way?


----------



## EMTinNEPA

reaper said:


> Dude, You need to relax and quit taking everything personal! When you get more experience dealing with stuff like this, you will see what they are talking about!



Rid made it personal.


----------



## Ridryder911

EMTinNEPA said:


> I answered your second and third questions.
> 
> Patient was not dead at the time of the call, but the patient may have been dead when they got there.  No, they weren't going to witness death, but why break the law and potentially endanger your own life and the lives of others when you might get there too late, especially when you know you aren't going to make a difference either way?



Because it is called human compassion.. eh emotions?.... or here is a new one... they call it Love. Who said they endangered anyone? 

You never ran a stop sign for less of an event? Again, the intent has to be considered. Now, really how do you think the judge would had ruled? Yeah, the cop knew too. 

R/r 911


----------



## VentMedic

EMTinNEPA said:


> I answered your second and third questions.
> 
> Patient was not dead at the time of the call, but the patient may have been dead when they got there. No, they weren't going to witness death, but why break the law and potentially endanger your own life and the lives of others when you might get there too late, especially when you know you aren't going to make a difference either way?


 
If this had been more than a traffic light, he would have gotten a ticket for reckless driving and speeding also. But, the driver was not doing any of that. The officer also knew he slowed before preceding through the stop light since he witnessed it. You are the one who is making this a felony. But, your main issue is you can not understand human emotions where loved ones are concerned. You have no right to tell people how they should feel or act if they know their loved ones are dying. They are not you. You need to put your own personal issues aside. How you choose to ignore human emotions is not how others may choose to treat similar situations especially where loved ones are concerned.


----------



## EMTinNEPA

Ridryder911 said:


> There is much difference in seeing and being part of the grieving process.



Are you doing the "using a single post to get on a soapbox and talk to everybody at once" thing, or do you still think I don't know what grieving is?


----------



## Ridryder911

EMTinNEPA said:


> Are you doing the "using a single post to get on a soapbox and talk to everybody at once" thing, or do you still think I don't know what grieving is?



You answered it by your own posts. 

R/r 911


----------



## EMTinNEPA

Ridryder911 said:


> You never ran a stop sign for less of an event?



No, I have never intentionally ran a stop sign.

And I said "potentially".


----------



## VentMedic

As much as I would like to continue to discuss death and dying wth EMTinNEPA, I have a memorial service to attend for 4 OPD officers.

It still does not change my mind that this traffic stop could still have been handled better by this officer.


----------



## rescuepoppy

Did the driver make a mistake by running the red light? Yes. Did the officer make a mistake in the way he handled the incident? Yes. I am not arguing the fact that a violation took place, just the way the situation was handled. Was a citation warranted? From watching the video I would say the officer could have let it go with a simple warning. Should the documents asked for been produced right from the start. Yes. But then the driver was someone who was in the middle of a crisis that he was no used to dealing with so his emotions were outweighing his judgment. I think the officer would have had a great effect on the drivers future driving habits if he had have used more of his training and experience to be the cooler head in this case. Even if he had decided to ticket the driver he had all of his information, and could have done it at a later time.


----------



## Ms.Medic

Its funny to read some of these replies,,,there's so many of them that imply "I dont care what the situation is, Im not going to break/bend the law", when we all, yes all, base our actions on the situation. Would that officer have done the same thing if the person pulled over was a buddy he drinks with on the weekends, or his cousin? Cmon. And for medics who say they've never broken/bent the law, or try and justify why the did "only one time",,,,seriously. We all make exceptions, and for anyone to say,,,what he did was wrong,,,NO MATTER WHAT he (driver) should be punished over something minor like this, in a situation like this....please. IMO, He should have been let go and told to drive in safer manner. Its their descretion who to write one to and who not to, which is one of the reasons why my opinion, and the rest, doesnt even matter...LOL.


----------



## EMTinNEPA

Time for an analysis with real and not guesstimated time stamps.

The occupants of the vehicle get out of the car at 1:04.  The officer gets out at 1:07 and tells them to get back in the car at 1:09.  At 1:13, everybody starts shouting at him at once.  At 1:34, he lets the passengers go inside, but one stays outside.  The thread to tow the car (3:01) came after two passengers disobeyed a direct order from the officer to get back in the car, one request to see the driver's license, one request to see the driver's insurance, and six shouted statements by the driver, including "You go get it!" (in reference to the insurance) and "You're wasting my time!", and a 14 second rant.  The threat for jail came after an additional instance of swearing at a police officer, another two rants by the driver, and after the the driver was asked to stop talking five times.  Notice that the officer lets everyone besides the driver go inside almost immediately.  Notice none of the news networks are showing that part of the video, only the part 6 minutes in where the driver suddenly turns into "Yes, sir, no, sir".  The medical personnel speaks to the officer at 7:21.  Then, when he comes outside at 13:32 (while his mother-in-law is still dying), he attempts to lecture the cop.

If I ran a red light, and was then pulled over, proceeded to swear at the you, go on three rants, shout six disrespectful statements, all while ignoring multiple requests for my license, my registration, and to stop talking, all while falling back on a story that I conveniently can't prove unless you let me go inside, what would you do?  And then, once my story was confirmed, I came outside and attempted to lecture you, what would you do?


----------



## amberdt03

EMTinNEPA said:


> The thread to tow the car (3:01) came after two passengers disobeyed a direct order from the officer to get back in the car, one request to see the driver's license, one request to see the driver's insurance, and six shouted statements by the driver, including "You go get it!" (in reference to the insurance) and "You're wasting my time!", and a 14 second rant.



i think the threat to tow the car was because they were parked in a handicap spot. which at the end, i believe the plano police officer that stopped to help the dpd officer, offered to move for them so they could go up stairs.


----------



## AJ Hidell

With nothing but traffic charges on him, and his car in my possession?  I'd let him go.  I have no quota.  And I don't have a hang up on trying to assert my "power" when there is nothing positive to be accomplished by it.  Only an immature fool with terminally bad judgement would risk such a horribly negative story on his department over a red light ticket.  The officer has that discretion, and he should have used it.


----------



## EMTinNEPA

AJ Hidell said:


> With nothing but traffic charges on him, and his car in my possession?  I'd let him go.  I have no quota.  And I don't have a hang up on trying to assert my "power" when there is nothing positive to be accomplished by it.  Only an immature fool with terminally bad judgement would risk such a horribly negative story on his department over a red light ticket.  The officer has that discretion, and he should have used it.



Nothing but traffic charges?  How about obstruction of justice?  How about interfering with the duties of a police officer?  How about disorderly conduct?  How about disturbing the peace?


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## medic417

How about we lock this idiotic discussion?:unsure:


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## AJ Hidell

EMTinNEPA said:


> Nothing but traffic charges?  How about obstruction of justice?  How about interfering with the duties of a police officer?  How about disorderly conduct?  How about disturbing the peace?


How about you actually go to the police academy and speak informedly instead of just spouting stuff you think you learned watching Third Watch.  I'm sorry, but you clearly do not know what you are talking about.  Any such additional charges would have been seen for the vindictive persecution they were and only caused this officer to be in even bigger trouble.

Vent was visionary on this issue, because now a racial component has entered the controversy.  Consequently, I'm sure this guy is going to get fired now.  Of course, he'll get reinstated on appeal, but his career with this department is still over.  All because he let his cocky ego get in the way and just had to show he was "right".  He'll be "right" all the way to the unemployment line.  At least he only threw away a three year career and not a twenty year one.


----------



## Ms.Medic

medic417 said:


> How about we lock this idiotic discussion?:unsure:



Why do the threads that have over the top heated discussions always get locked ???
Why cant we voice our opinions w/o having to worry with the thread nazi's ??? Its not like we're hurting each other,,,or sending threats. :sad:


----------



## medic417

Ms.Medic said:


> Why do the threads that have over the top heated discussions always get locked ???
> Why cant we voice our opinions w/o having to worry with the thread nazi's ??? Its not like we're hurting each other,,,or sending threats. :sad:



Are you calling the mods nazis?  Wow they just want a warm cuddly friendly place.


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## Ms.Medic

medic417 said:


> Are you calling the mods nazis?  Wow they just want a warm cuddly friendly place.



LOL, NO, Im not calling, any one person, a name. The last thing I want is another "warning". Im steering clear of all that. 

And, I dont think that anyone who signed up for this thread was expecting a "warm, cuddly, friendly place"...hehe


----------



## bstone

Quinoa.

Yum.


----------



## Sasha

Where is everyone getting that this is a race issue?


----------



## Jon

What shocks me is that the chief threw the officer under the bus. Yes... the officer was dealing with a tough situation, HOWEVER, he pulls over a car with multiple occupants, including a VERY large, angry driver. NFL Players are intimidating by nature... big, strong, tall, and they beat the crap out of each other for our amusement every week.



YES... the occupants of the vehicle were under a lot of stress... HOWEVER, rather than explain the situation to the officer, they yelled at him, cursed at him, and it took a while for the officer to gather all the relevant info

When you get out of a car on a traffic stop without being specifically told to by the officer, it raises his stress level... you are acting potentially threatening and/or might flee. That started the chain reaction that drove this downhill... had they stayed in the car and followed the officers directions, the officer would have been calmer, and it wouldn't have been as antagonistic. I really am surprised that the officer was thrown under the bus by his chief, and that this wasn't just used as a teaching point for the public, breaking down where things went bad.


----------



## VentMedic

Jon said:


> YES... the occupants of the vehicle were under a lot of stress... HOWEVER, rather than explain the situation to the officer, *they yelled at him, cursed at him,* and it took a while for the officer to gather all the relevant info


 
Did we watch the same video? The fact that they did not curse was even commented on in the news clips.

It was the Plano Police Officer that went to his supervisors concerning this officer's behavior that started the investigation. Not the Moats.

Did you also catch the conversation at the end where the officers knew their policy about not chasing traffic violations but made a joke about it? I imagine his superiors had a field day with that part alone. 

Again, a Police Officer should be trained well enough not to escalate a situation by his own actions.


----------



## Jon

I missed the part at the end...And I must have misheard.

Still... I think the Moats should have some responsibility here.


----------



## VentMedic

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/032609dnmetcopstop.3e9c080.html

Excerpts from Officer Robert Powell and Ryan Moats: 

*Moats: *You really want to go through this right now? My mother-in-law is dying. Right now! ... I got seconds before she's dying, man! 
*Powell: *If my mom was dying I'd probably be a little upset too, but when I saw flashing red and blues, I would stop. 
*Moats: *Did I not stop at the red light? 
*Powell: *You stopped, then you drove through the red light. 
*Moats: *I stopped, I checked the traffic, I waved the traffic off, then I turned. 
*Powell: *This is not an emergency vehicle. You do not have the right to control the traffic. 
*Moats: *OK. All right ... just go ahead and check my insurance so I can go ahead and go. If you're gonna give me a ticket, give me a ticket. I really don't care, just ... 
*Powell: *Your attitude says that you need one. 
*Moats: *I don't have an attitude. All I'm asking you is just to hurry up. Cause you're standing here talking to me... 
*Powell: *Shut your mouth and listen. 
*Moats: *Shut my mouth? Is that how you talk to me, too? 
*Powell: *Shut your mouth and listen. If you want to keep this going, I'll just put you in handcuffs, and I'll take you to jail for running a red light. 
*Moats: *OK. All right. 
*Powell: *I can do that. 
*Moats: *OK. 
*Powell: *State law says I can. 
*Moats: *Yes, sir. Go ahead. 
*Powell: *If you don't settle down that's what I'm gonna do. 
*Moats: *Yes, sir. 
*Powell: *All right, If you don't settle down, your truck's illegally parked – I'll tow that as well. 
*Moats: *Yes, sir. 
*Powell: *OK, I can screw you over. I'd rather not do that. Your attitude will dictate everything that happens, and right now, your attitude sucks. 
*Moats: *Yes, sir. 
*Powell: *OK, I turned my red and blues on as you were going over the bridge ... 
*Moats: *You think I'm gonna stop when my wife's mother is dying? 
*Powell: *You are required to stop. What you're doing does not matter. Red and blues, you have to stop. I can charge you with fleeing right now. 
*Moats: *Yes, sir. ... 
*Powell: *I can take you to jail. I can tow your truck. I can charge you with fleeing. 
*Moats: *Yes, sir, you can. I understand. 
*Powell: *I can make your night very difficult. 
*Moats:*I hope you'll be a great person and not do that.


----------



## VentMedic

Jon said:


> Still... I think the Moats should have some responsibility here.


 
Nobody said he didn't have a part in this.  He admitted to running the red light and accepted the ticket.

Look at the unedited video which is also on the link to the transcript I posted.


----------



## Jon

Ok... Now that I'm watching the full video, I really wonder what I saw before.


----------



## amberdt03

police officer apologizes. 

http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/d...ries/wfaa090327_wz_moatsapology.7931211f.html


----------



## AJ Hidell

Sasha said:


> Where is everyone getting that this is a race issue?


It was inevitable.  Especially in Dallas.  There are multiple "community organizers" there that make a living creating racial issues to fan the flames.  They are hard at work on this one.  If they want to punish this officer, instead of firing him, they should just reassign him to South Oak Cliff.  His lifeless body will turn up in an alley in less than a week.



Jon said:


> What shocks me is that the chief threw the officer under the bus. Yes... the officer was dealing with a tough situation, HOWEVER, he pulls over a car with multiple occupants, including a VERY large, angry driver. NFL Players are intimidating by nature... big, strong, tall, and they beat the crap out of each other for our amusement every week.


If you knew David Kunkle like I do, you would be surprised if he ever did _not_ throw an officer under the bus.  He's built a career on it.  And when his little pot-head son got arrested while running from police years back, he was quick to make the charges go away.

As for Moats, at he's 5'8", he is of below average height.  His wife is a more imposing figure than he is.  She was a lot angrier too.


----------



## fortsmithman

VentMedic said:


> http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/032609dnmetcopstop.3e9c080.html
> 
> Excerpts from Officer Robert Powell and Ryan Moats:
> *Powell: *All right, If you don't settle down, your truck's illegally parked – I'll tow that as well.


Correct me if I'm wrong isn't Powell a Dallas police officer and isn't the city the hospital is in Plano.  Powell was out of his jurisdiction He would not be able to have the vehicle towed.  as well Powell violated his services policy on pursuits.  If the vehicle were to be towed wouldn't it be the Plano officer ordering the towing.  That said I don't think the member should be fired.  Powell should be supervised for a little bit.


----------



## AJ Hidell

The initial crime occurred in his jurisdiction, so it is within his authority to have the vehicle towed for that offense, if the guy were to be arrested.  Had he failed to produce proof of insurance, city policy requires that the vehicle be towed. But no, he would not have jurisdiction over a parking violation.

If you watch the entire video, you see that it is not a pursuit.  The officer was never even near Moats' vehicle until they were already pulling into the hospital parking lot.  He was just trying to catch up to him to effect the stop (which is not against policy), so Moats wasn't fleeing up until that point.  And policy does not prohibit you from following a violator to the ends of the earth, so long as you are not speeding or busting intersections.


----------



## EMTinNEPA

VentMedic said:


> Did we watch the same video? The fact that they did not curse was even commented on in the news clips.



Apparently not because at 3:38, in reference to his insurance information, the driver shouts "Take it out!  S**t.", a full 24 seconds before the first threat of jail.


----------



## Shishkabob

fortsmithman said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong isn't Powell a Dallas police officer and isn't the city the hospital is in Plano.  Powell was out of his jurisdiction He would not be able to have the vehicle towed.  as well Powell violated his services policy on pursuits.  If the vehicle were to be towed wouldn't it be the Plano officer ordering the towing.  That said I don't think the member should be fired.  Powell should be supervised for a little bit.




Plano is one of the many cities within the Dallas limits, such as Lewissville.  They have mutual aid and Dallas PD has the ability to patrol the others, as they lie within Dallas.


Same goes for Fort Worth and alot of the other minor cities within here... Fort Worth PD will patrol and conduct business within the other cities as they lie within Fort Worth limits.


Dallas has a law in effect where if you're caught in the city without insurance, you're towed on the spot no matter what.


----------



## Sasha

> It was inevitable. Especially in Dallas. There are multiple "community organizers" there that make a living creating racial issues to fan the flames. They are hard at work on this one. If they want to punish this officer, instead of firing him, they should just reassign him to South Oak Cliff. His lifeless body will turn up in an alley in less than a week.



It's sad that a white man and black man can't have a disagreement without it turning to race. This story gave no indication that the officer was racist. Was he wrong, insensitive and egotistical? Sure. Racist? I don't see it.


----------



## AJ Hidell

Linuss said:


> Plano is one of the many cities within the Dallas limits, such as Lewissville.  They have mutual aid and Dallas PD has the ability to patrol the others, as they lie within Dallas.


That is a bit misleading.  There are only two cities within Dallas, and they are not Plano or Lewisville.  Although they do border each other, Plano lies on the farthest outskirts of Dallas.  It's the ninth largest city in Texas, and certainly not "within" Dallas.


----------



## bstone

The cop apologized and resigned:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090401/ap_on_re_us/nfl_player_stopped


----------



## fortsmithman

bstone said:


> The cop apologized and resigned:
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090401/ap_on_re_us/nfl_player_stopped


The officer should not have resigned.


----------



## amberdt03

fortsmithman said:


> The officer should not have resigned.



wouldn't surprise me if it was a "forced" resignation.


----------



## AJ Hidell

fortsmithman said:


> The officer should not have resigned.


Maybe not, but it was the honorable thing to do.  It was the best possible course of action for his reputation and his future career.  He's young.  He's got a long life and career ahead of him.  If he takes a serious lesson from this, grows up a little, and gets his ego in check, he can still be a good cop.  Just not in Dallas.  At least not til Kunkel is gone.


----------



## EMTinNEPA

fortsmithman said:


> The officer should not have resigned.



Nor apologized.  The driver of the vehicle was out of line.  I don't care if you have a dying relative or not, there is no excuse for behaving that way in front of a cop and disrespecting an officer of the law like that.  Yet another case of cop-hating and celebrities getting off scott free.  If the media hadn't demonized the cop like that, do you think there would be sucha a big stink?  No there wouldn't.


----------



## VentMedic

EMTinNEPA said:


> Nor apologized. The driver of the vehicle was out of line. I don't care if you have a dying relative or not, there is no excuse for behaving that way in front of a cop and disrespecting an officer of the law like that. Yet another case of cop-hating and celebrities getting off scott free. If the media hadn't demonized the cop like that, do you think there would be sucha a big stink? No there wouldn't.


 
You missed the part where it was the other police officer that reported this officer's behavior to his superiors.   That started the investigation. Not the Moats and not the media.  This story broke several days after the incident with the results of the investigation.


----------



## JPINFV

Yea... that Plano City officer really hates cops. So, is this a case of a self-hating police officer?


----------



## EMTinNEPA

JPINFV said:


> Yea... that Plano City officer really hates cops. So, is this a case of a self-hating police officer?



That or department rivalry.  You'd be surprised how many LEOs, firefighters, and EMS personnel in my area are chomping at the bit for a chance to throw another service under the bus.


----------



## Sasha

> there is no excuse for behaving that way in front of a cop and disrespecting an officer of the law like that.



Emotional distress? Being in EMS, I would think you would be familiar with the emotional outbursts in times of medical emergency. Losing a loved one makes people do crazy things.  And the cop did nothing to help the situation. Instead he threatened arresting him, had his gun, etc. All for a TRAFFIC STOP. The "celebrity"(That I've never heard of.) didn't hurt anyone. He proceeded through the red light safely. Heck, safer then most ambulances and police cars do. And he didn't try and use his celebrity status.



> If the media hadn't demonized the cop like that, do you think there would be sucha a big stink?



They didn't demonize anyone. They had the video, the cop dug himself into a hole.



> So, is this a case of a self-hating police officer?



Sounds like a case for Dr. Phil


----------



## EMTinNEPA

Sasha said:


> Emotional distress? Being in EMS, I would think you would be familiar with the emotional outbursts in times of medical emergency. Losing a loved one makes people do crazy things.  And the cop did nothing to help the situation. Instead he threatened arresting him, had his gun, etc. All for a TRAFFIC STOP. The "celebrity"(That I've never heard of.) didn't hurt anyone. He proceeded through the red light safely. Heck, safer then most ambulances and police cars do. And he didn't try and use his celebrity status.
> 
> 
> 
> They didn't demonize anyone. They had the video, the cop dug himself into a hole.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like a case for Dr. Phil



Last time I checked, breaking the law is still breaking the law, even IF nobody gets hurt.  Did you miss my post that detailed the ranting, the shouting, the disrespect, and the profanity committed by the driver BEFORE the threat of arrest?

And if you see the video, you'll see that the driver and his family crossed the line first by ignoring the officer behind them and then getting out of the vehicle.  How was the cop supposed to know they had a dying relative?  For all he knew, they were going to grab a shotgun out of the back seat.

EDIT: And while HE didn't use his celebrity status, the media sure did.  And the media definitely demonized the cop.  The only clips of the video I've seen only show the driver saying "Yes sir, no sir, I'm sorry, I understand", not "You're wasting my time!", "You go get it!", or "Take it out! S**t!".


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## VentMedic

EMTinNEPA said:


> EDIT: And while HE didn't use his celebrity status, the media sure did. And the media definitely demonized the cop. The only clips of the video I've seen only show the driver saying "Yes sir, no sir, I'm sorry, I understand", not "You're wasting my time!", "You go get it!", or "Take it out! S**t!".


 
So you only watched a few clips? Watch the whole video and read the transcripts.

Please move on to another job that doesn't involve humans or animals. None of your posts have displayed  the qualities it takes to be a health care provider and professional.


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## EMTinNEPA

VentMedic said:


> So you only watched a few clips? Watch the whole video and read the transcripts.
> 
> Please move on to another job that doesn't involve humans or animals. None of your posts have displayed  the qualities it takes to be a health care provider and professional.



The few clips I've seen on the news.  If I had only seen those clips, I would be agreeing with the rest of you, but clearly I'm not.  I watched the whole video, and in fact, it's starting to seem like I'm the ONLY one who watched the whole video, as opposed to only the parts that made the cop look like the bad guy and the driver seem like a fine, upstanding member of society.  If you watched the whole video and missed this, then please, move on to another profession that doesn't involve thought, because clearly you don't possess the memory, reasoning capabilites, or mental capacity it takes to be a healthcare provider and professional.  See?  I can throw petty and meaningless insults at others just because they disagree with me too.


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## AJ Hidell

Sasha said:


> The "celebrity"(That I've never heard of.) didn't hurt anyone.


I've never even heard of the team he plays for, much less him.  I agree that this guy is a "celebrity" only in theory.

But the officer was indeed demonized, at least locally.  And the police department intentionally fueled that demonization.  They wanted to focus all the hate on the officer in order to keep it off of the department as a whole.  Not only was I a cop in that area, I was also in the news media there for a decade.  Normally, if you want a photograph of an officer for a news story, you have to file an FOI request with the police department and wait a month to get it.  The department sent out a photograph of this officer to every media outlet without even being asked, the day after the story broke.  That is unprecedented in the Dallas Police Department!  Instead of just reporting the story, the local news media devoted a lot of time to airing opinions from "community organizers" and citizens on the street, which rarely ever happens.  There is no doubt that there was a concerted effort to whip the story into a frenzy by both the news media and the police department.


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## Shishkabob

Sasha, duress is not a valid excuse to break a law in Texas.  If you are under duress and you break a law, you are still 100% liable.


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## AJ Hidell

Linuss said:


> Sasha, duress is not a valid excuse to break a law in Texas.


Actually, it can be, and has been proven to be so in numerous instances of case law.  The judge, jury, and district attorney are free to accept any excuse they choose to accept as valid.


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## Shishkabob

Meh, I know I should have slept more last night.

I'll type my correctionw hen I wake up.


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## micsaver

First...WOW.

Before I start, Yes I watched the entire video. I was also a police officer before joining EMS.

Depending on what perspective you take...just about everyone that has jumped on this thread is right...just about.

I'm in the "Officer should be retrained in the importance of discretion and deescalation" camp. I understand a "cop personality" - kinda have one myself. Honestly he was doing what he flat out believed was right and his duty. It is up to his supervisors to show him that serving the public and doing what is right and his duty is more than black and white / cut and dry. Hind sight is always 20/20 and this guy definitely dug himself into a whole. This would be an awesome video to show future police cadets as a way to discuss the large power of DISCRETION. We could brainstorm 15 different ways he could have handled this that would have resulted in Justice and Community Service for all involved.

no one wants to be facing the gestapo.
no one wants to be facing a robot. 
Give me a human being in a uniform with a badge that uses good discretion to go above and beyond the wall of 'us vs them - I'll teach you a lesson' mentality. That's hard to come by. Hard to live up to, but something all officers should strive for.


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## Sasha

Linuss said:


> Sasha, duress is not a valid excuse to break a law in Texas.  If you are under duress and you break a law, you are still 100% liable.



while it doesnt technically excuse you... why not aa little compassion and empathy? something the officer and some of the posters here lack.


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## fortsmithman

EMTinNEPA said:


> That or department rivalry.  You'd be surprised how many LEOs, firefighters, and EMS personnel in my area are chomping at the bit for a chance to throw another service under the bus.


ouds like the relationship Between the RCMP and Edmonton Police.


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## Techman006

I think JPINFV hit it right on the head.  Yes the guy ran a red light and deserves a ticket.  Yes he broke the law.  However when you wathc the video you see that the man was calm and patient especially for the circumstances.  The officer did not approach the problem in the right way.  He should be reprimanded if only slightly for not using appropriate common sense in the situation.  When he saw that the man was calming down and trying to be cooperative he could have said i am gonna write you the ticket let you go to the room and after we can talk/finish...or something similar or something i have not thought of but the way he did go about it was definatley wrong.


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## AJ Hidell

The guy was not so calm and patient in the beginning.  Only after he checks his attitude and calms down does the officer begin de-escalating.  Had he actually been calm and patient from the beginning, this probably would not have gotten out of hand like that.


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