# Pregnant Women.



## Sasha (Jun 25, 2009)

Just curious, did you work in the field throughout your pregnancy? Why or why not?


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## Sasha (Jun 25, 2009)

Aw darnit, I wanted to add a poll.


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## el Murpharino (Jun 25, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Just curious, did you work in the field throughout your pregnancy? Why or why not?



I work with someone who has been at work up until her 36th week....she was on light duty the last two months.


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## Scout (Jun 25, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Just curious, did you work in the field throughout your pregnancy? Why or why not?





Something you want to say Sasha. We could have a party.:beerchug:


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## ClarkKent (Jun 25, 2009)

Scout said:


> We could have a party.:beerchug:



Ah Sasha, why did you not tell us.


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## TransportJockey (Jun 25, 2009)

Some news for us Sasha?  Any excuse for a party


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## Epi-do (Jun 25, 2009)

I can't believe you didn't tell me when we talked last night!!!!  

Now, to answer your question, no, I did not work during my pregnancy.  I started having cramping at around 8-9 weeks and had had two previous miscarriages.  I was on light duty since anything very strenuous triggered the cramping.  My OB agreed to play it safe to help ease my mind a little bit.  I was a complete mess.


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## Sasha (Jun 25, 2009)

Originally, I wasn't going to humor you all, but no.

The only party we will be throwing is a Not Pregnant Party. 

The conversation came up between me and someone else, I thought it was a bad idea but she was telling me about people she used to work with who worked their entire pregnancy.

I personally could not see putting myself and the fetus at risk like that.


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## TransportJockey (Jun 25, 2009)

To be honest, we found out almost three months ago that my fiance was pregnant. She told me she wanted to work throughout the pregnancy (she works as a basic for an IFT company), but at about 8 weeks she wound up miscarrying. Her doc said part of the reason could have been all the heavy lifting and stress that was involved. I wouldn't want her to work through out it again.


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## Aidey (Jun 25, 2009)

I only know of one person at my current job that worked while pregnant, and she worked up until 34 weeks, and then went on maternity leave. I think it's one of those things that is going to depend on the person, how their pregnancy is going, and what their doctor says, and their employer.


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## Hockey (Jun 25, 2009)

Not my kid!


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## Medic744 (Jun 25, 2009)

I worked up until the day before my scheduled c section.  My doctor told me that working up until my due date was up to me, she advised against it but told me to just be very aware of my body and how I was feeling.  I went back to work before she would have liked too. I think its up to each person, the group they work with, and how much is being asked of them.  Light duty was not an option for me since we had a workers comp situation going on with another medic at the time.  My son is now a healthy and vibrant 11 week old.  The only fear I had was that he was going to come out with Stryker printed on his forehead as many times as I bounced the stretcher off my belly.  Lifting and moving around was never a problem for me, but then again I think I had a perfect pregnancy.  The only thing that ever made me think twice was when we would go to a call my Booger Bear would work his way up into my rib cage making it difficult for me to breath.  Otherwise there were no problems. Our small town is very good about backing each other up and there were always firefighters or PD and our volunteers on scene even if I didn't need them.


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## lightsandsirens5 (Jun 26, 2009)

Sasha said:


> The only party we will be throwing is a Not Pregnant Party.



Ha ha ha! And like 5 poeple are ready to drop everting, congratulate you and have a party.

(Yes I was going to just automatically post a congrats, :blush: but I decided to read the whole thread first. lol'ed when I saw this!)

As for the main topic, I would say no, a woman should be on LOA during the entire pregnancy. It just seem like to much of a risk to me. All that stress, heavy lifting, exposure to nasty stuff, etc..............


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## Aidey (Jun 26, 2009)

Would you also say that pregnant nurses and doctors shouldn't practice either?


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## Sasha (Jun 26, 2009)

Aidey said:


> Would you also say that pregnant nurses and doctors shouldn't practice either?



The thing is while nurses do have to do heavy lifting, they can generally get someone else to do the lifting for them, there are plenty of other people floating in the ED or on the floor and plenty of techs and CNAs and etc. 

As an EMT/Paramedic it can just be you and your partner and your 180lb patient which more than passes the weight lifting restriction! 

Also it depends on where you work as a doctor or nurse, if you routinely come in contact with physically violent patients, it may be best to take a desk job or LOA. 

They should probably also take extra care with their infection control.


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## reaper (Jun 26, 2009)

My old partner worked up till her 5 month. She started getting to uncomfortable in the truck and went on light duty. I think it is fine to a point. Once you really start to show, then you put the fetus at risk.


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## Hastings (Jun 26, 2009)

To dispatch with 'em!


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## Medic744 (Jun 26, 2009)

For every man or woman who has not been in the position of having no choice but to work I have to ask that you consider that for some it may not be an option to take light duty, a LOA, or go to dispatch.  It is a very personal decision for each woman.  I cried at the thought of coming off the truck because I love my job and also couldnt afford to moneywise.  I am also very in tune with my body and knew how far I could push myself and what was too much.  While pregnant I protected myself and my baby. As far as lifting goes if you are having trouble with the 180lb pt during, then you probably couldnt lift before. I never had an issue with the physical aspects of the job.  I know how to ask for help when I need it. If there can be men working who are overweight and look like a walking MI an women who cant handle the physical part of the job to begin with then why cant a healthy pregnant female with the green light from her doc work too?


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## Sasha (Jun 26, 2009)

> I know how to ask for help when I need it. If there can be men working who are overweight and look like a walking MI an women who cant handle the physical part of the job to begin with then why cant a healthy pregnant female with the green light from her doc work too?



Overweight men don't have a little fetus growing in their stomach.



> I cried at the thought of coming off the truck because I love my job and also couldnt afford to moneywise.



That's you. Personally I couldn't see putting my fetus at risk, no amount of money is worth that.



[ Just a side note. That fetus is purely hypothetical. There is no fetus in my uterus. ]


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## Medic744 (Jun 26, 2009)

My son was never at risk.  I got lucky and not only do I work with the best group of guys in the entire world (FD, PD, and EMS) but I was given the chance to work throught my pregnancy.  If I had been pulled off the truck then I would have figured out the money situation but just because I was pregnant didn't mean I couldn't do my job.  I was given the chance to make the choice for myself.  It should be that way for every woman in the same situation.  For people to assume that either you can't do it physically or mentally is ignorant.  Each woman is different.  The doctors don't tell you to stop exercising or doing anything else that you normally do while you are pregnant unless you feel it necessary, not anybody else, the mother.  If there have been issues in the past then by all means kick up your feet and enjoy your pregnancy.  There is no guarantee that if you stop working that nothing will go wrong.  But if we, as women, stop making decisions for ourselves while pregnant and allow anyone to tell us that what we are doing is dangerous for our unborn child then there will be very little that any pregnant woman would be "allowed" to do.  There was no reason for me not to work.  My son is healthy and wonderful and was never at any risk.  If anything while I was pregnant I was MORE vigilant about scene safety and personal safety.  Dont get me wrong I don't think every woman should work in this field while pregnant but I also think that if they want to then more power to them and nobody has the right to judge them or give them grief about the decision that they are making.  It is her decision to make.


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## amberdt03 (Jun 26, 2009)

i knew a girl that worked till she was like 6 months but she also smoked her entire pregnancy too.

one of the nurses i work with on the transport team worked till she was like 8 months. she didn't have to do any lifting though.


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## djmedic913 (Jun 26, 2009)

1 of my partners worked throughout her entire pregnancy. I think went on leave 1 or 2 weeks before the due date. Every shift I worked with her towards the end of her pregnancy I brought my catcher's glove. Any time she went "OW" then grabbed her belly, I got a little nervous.

And worse when we would have to lift larger patients with out assistance around, I was half expecting the baby to come shooting out...lol


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## alphatrauma (Jun 28, 2009)

Financial considerations aside... I don't see why any mother-to-be in her right mind would work on an ambulance past her first trimester. Secondary to the health and safety of mother/child... I literally hate it when people (male or female, for whatever reason) come to work and can't function at 100%, and expect others to pick up the slack. Stay home, or play desk jockey


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## Medic744 (Jun 29, 2009)

Totally in my right mind and functioned at the same level if not better than some people in the entire field.  I never expected anybody to pick up my slack and never bowed out of any of my duties because I was pregnant.  Any job has its dangers for anybody pregnant or not.  My son was never in any danger and neither was I anymore than anybody else.  My crew members from every department may have gone into overdrive when it came to protecting me but all it took was a quick reminder that I am perfectly capable of doing my duties.  Before anyone judges anybody elses decisions consider all sides of a situation.  Staying on a unit is not for everyone just like being a "desk jockey" isn't for everyone either.  I had the option of stepping down but Im sorry I worked to hard to get where I am and being pregnant actually made me work harder.  I sat down with my Director (a man) and we disscused all possibilites.  He and I both agreed that when either he or I thought it was time to come off the unit that I would.  None of my partners ever had any complaints that they brought to him or I about my performance and in fact I recieved quite a bit of praise.  All Im asking is that everyone should be opened minded about any situation. Pregnancy, injury, illness, anything.  Think through both sides of a situation before jumping to a conclusion that the only right thing is your opinion.


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## Sasha (Jun 29, 2009)

Sweetheart, none of this is a personal attack against you. Stop taking it like it is.


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## willbeflight (Jun 29, 2009)

Hockey9019 said:


> Not my kid!



Yes it is!  And I will take you on Maury to prove it!  lmao  just joking!!


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## Medic744 (Jun 29, 2009)

Im not taking it as a personal attack but giving out my opinion on it from my experience.  One of the things that I hate most is when people form an opinion about a situation and form that opinion off a generalization of a population of people.  Not everyone in a catagory fit the stereotype and it is really hard to break that opinion when you are one of the ones who doesn't fit the stereotype.  Don't worry I don't even let the people I love get away with sterotyping people.  The world is full of diversity, good and bad, and to jump to a conclusion without giving the benefit of the doubt based on physical appearance is one of the worlds greatest downfalls.


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## alphatrauma (Jun 29, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Sweetheart, none of this is a personal attack against you. Stop taking it like it is.



*x2*


What I stated may not be politically correct or even nice... but it is reality. People coming in to work on "light duty" or with unhealed injuries, (or even sick for that matter) belong at home or behind a desk. They are dead weight and a burden to the rest of the team (whether anyone will tell them or not). People will smile and say, "sure let me get/lift that for you"... then moan about it when (collective, not personal) you are not around. Believe me, it gets old.

If a pregnant woman wants to ride til she's full term, more power to her! It's all fun and games until she steps off the truck the wrong way, or takes a foot to the belly by a combative patient. What happens if she is exposed to a dirty needle or an infectious patient spits blood in her face/eyes? I'll tell you what happens... a choice between possibly contracting Hep/HIV or an aborted fetus. 

We are all adults in this field, and can choose to subject ourselves to any potential hazards we see fit. I would never want to hear or read about anyone, whether I knew them or not, losing a child due to occupational hazards... or any other reason for that matter.


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## Medic744 (Jun 29, 2009)

Again not taking it as a personal attack just giving an opinion from my perspective with my experience with it.  It is true that we are adults that have the choice to put ourselves in harms way and it is true that it is not for every woman who is pregnant.  I was not dead weight.  I went above and beyond before, during, and after.  I never let somebody do my job for me in any form or fashion.  If they wanted to help they could jump in on their own but I never passed off my equipment or patient care just because I was pregnant.  Trust me in a small department like mine if one person gripes about you or the way you do your job then you know about it.   Also every job has its built in dangers to it.  By the thinking you are presenting every pregnant woman or ill or injured person should stay at home in bed and not get out.  If I had sat there and worried myself to death about every little thing that could go wrong I would have stressed myself out which is worse than physical activity.  I had combative patients and questionable patients and didnt pass on the responsibility.  I am just trying to point out that this is not the only field where there are dangers for pregnant women.  What about a stockperson at Wal-Mart? Or a bank teller? Or a CEO? Or a stay at home mom with other children? A teacher? Or any other number of jobs that women hold.  There is the possibilty of coming into contact with a disease or injury, or unpleasant person.  They are not putting themselves at more risk than I am because at least when I get in the truck to go to a call I am already prepared to protect myself from any possibilty and expect the unexpected where they don't. The stocker/cashier doesn't expect to fall or have an irrate customer take out a bad day on them, a bank teller doesn't expect to get robbed or have a person with TB cough on them, a CEO doesn't expect the extra stress, a stay at home mom isn't expecting her child to kick her with everything they have in their belly, a teacher doesn't expect a child to give her HIV when he cuts himself on the playground.  Look all Im saying is that EVERY job has dangers expected or not and physical expectations of it and to pigeon hole everyone and say they should take time off is not fair to those of us who did it and don't regret it and would do it again.  I believe everyone should have their chance.  If I had considered all of the dangers and worried over everything that could go wrong I would have never gotten out of bed the entire time.


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## Sasha (Jun 29, 2009)

> What about a stockperson at Wal-Mart? Or a bank teller? Or a CEO? Or a stay at home mom with other children? A teacher? Or any other number of jobs that women hold. There is the possibilty of coming into contact with a disease or injury, or unpleasant person.



Those professions are not regularly put into situations where they have to lift heavy objects or people, have the potential to come up on combative people who could shoot you (with the exception of bank tellers who are well protected by police, at least here there is an officer stationed at each bank) and regularly acutely sick people with infectious diseases. They also don't drive screaming down the highway with lights and sirens increasing their chances of a fatal accident.

Are you really trying to compare yourself to a stock person at walmart or a bank teller? The jobs are nowhere near the same.


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## ResTech (Jun 29, 2009)

I had a partner who worked up until she was almost due and she functioned pretty much up to the same speed as when she wasn't pregnant. While I wouldn't necessarily want my gf or wife working in EMS if pregnant, as Medic744 has said, everyone's situation is different. Its easy for someone to throw out all of the what if's and this and that, and try to call a girl out as being careless for working while pregnant,  but when u got bills to pay that aren't gonna pay themselves and perhaps are in a situation where the father isn't around... you do what u gotta do. 

I have no problem helping my partner or calling the FD for lift assist when we normally wouldn't if she is pregnant. Especially during these times of common economic hardship.


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## Sasha (Jun 29, 2009)

No one called her out! This isn't an attack on her. It was a thread for opinions and I've stated mine, like others have. She's the one who feels she has to defend her position. I couldn't care less what she did during her pregnancy.


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## Medic744 (Jun 29, 2009)

AGAIN Im NOT taking it as a personal attack except when it is aimed directly at something I said.  All Im trying to do is get people to see that you CANNOT stereotype people according to race, gender, age, or percieved/actual disability.  Everyone deserves a chance to do what is best for them.


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## Sasha (Jun 29, 2009)

Good lord, who is stereotyping? It's FACT that pregnant women have a fetus in their uterus.


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## ResTech (Jun 29, 2009)

> That's you. Personally I couldn't see putting my fetus at risk, no amount of money is worth that.



Now let me hear you say that when your living on your own, have bills to pay, gas to put in ur car, a son or daughter already to provide for, and the father who currently got you knocked up is no where in sight to offer financial support. 

As Medic744 has tried to get ppl to understand, everyones situation is different and unless your there or have been there... you really have no clue (not just you, not ppl in general) what its like to walk in those shoes and have to make that decision.


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## Sasha (Jun 29, 2009)

ResTech said:


> Now let me hear you say that when your living on your own, have bills to pay, gas to put in ur car, a son or daughter already to provide for, and the father who currently got you knocked up is no where in sight to offer financial support.
> 
> As Medic744 has tried to get ppl to understand, everyones situation is different and unless your there or have been there... you really have no clue (not just you, not ppl in general) what its like to walk in those shoes and have to make that decision.



I already live on my own, all by myself and have bills to pay. Doesn't matter, no life is worth money to me. I'd find ways to struggle by, dispatch, work in billing, or pick up another job not in the field.  That is my decision when the time comes. You also assume that I'd get "knocked up" by someone who'd run, and you don't know me well enough to make that assumption.


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## ResTech (Jun 29, 2009)

I sincerely hope u never find yourself in that situation then. 

I guess instead of working in EMS while ur pregnant to maintain health insurance to cover the pregnancy and have money to live off of, its better to quit your job, become homeless, or start to draw off welfare. Tough choice.



> You also assume that I'd get "knocked up" by someone who'd run, and you don't know me well enough to make that assumption.



Im not assuming... but I do sense a bit of naivety... if only we could all predict the losers before hand!


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## Sasha (Jun 29, 2009)

ResTech said:


> I sincerely hope u never find yourself in that situation then.
> 
> I guess instead of working in EMS while ur pregnant to maintain health insurance to cover the pregnancy and have money to live off of, its better to quit your job, become homeless, or start to draw off welfare. Tough choice.



It's called careful planning so none of that is an issue. Or hey... there's this thing called work in dispatch.. or hey maybe even finding a job somewhere else and taking a leave of absence. It's not unemployment or work on a truck, there are grey areas.


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## LucidResq (Jun 29, 2009)

Yes, there are potential risks that can be encountered working in EMS or any other profession while pregnant. I believe that any decisions regarding the potential occupational hazards and their effect on the mother and/or fetus are to be made by the woman and her OB-GYN. Pregnancy complications such as miscarriage are much more common than most people realize. Most of the time the cause of a miscarriage is not determinable, yet countless factors have been shown in studies to increase the risk of miscarriage. Much of this data is contradictory or confusing. To truly avoid all of the identified factors in miscarriage, birth defects, or low birth weight would be completely impossible. 

In the UK, evidence-based guidelines on work and pregnancy published by the NHS and the Royal College of Physicians show "there is consistent evidence of risk of harm to pregnant workers from certain work-related activities, but that the level of this risk is small." As far as occupational lifting during pregnancy-  





> "Pregnant employees should be informed about the generally consistent evidence suggesting that lifting carries no more than a moderate risk of preterm birth and low birth weight, but limited inconsistent evidence for pre-eclampsia. Employers should reduce lifting for pregnant workers where possible, particularly in late pregnancy. However, if a pregnant worker who has been informed of the possible risks wishes to continue then there are insufficient grounds upon which to impose restrictions against her will."



Federal law, via the Pregnancy Discrimination Act, states "women affected by pregnancy, childbirth, or related medical conditions shall be treated the same for *all employment-related purposes*, including receipt of benefits under fringe benefit programs, _as other persons not so affected but similar in their ability or inability to work._" It covers all employers with 15 or more employees and federal, state and local agencies. 

Also, the majority opinion of Supreme Court decision _United Auto Workers Vs. Johnson Controls_ states "Decisions about the welfare of future children must be left to the parents who conceive, bear, support and raise them rather than the employers who hire those parents."


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## Medic744 (Jun 29, 2009)

Thank you.  All Im trying to get people to see is that it is my decision just as any other womans to work while pregnant.  Im sure Sasha would take it personally should someone make a broad generalization and dump her into a grouping due to her age, gender, or based on the way she looks.  (Yes I looked at your profile)  Im trying to make the point that you can't make sweeping generalizations about people.  When you find yourself in the situation I was in then you do what you have too.  Everyobody has a different opinion and nobody is wrong but take a moment to think it through and don't jump to a conclusion.  Everybody deserves the benefit of the doubt and a chance to prove people who doubt them wrong.


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## Sasha (Jun 29, 2009)

Did I ever say women who work in the field during pregnancy are selfish evil people who are inherently  wrong?

No.

What I said is Personally, I couldn't see taking the risk and that my fetus isn't worth money. That is MY opinion. I was never attacking or making generelizations about you, but you seem to think everyone was attacking you. I never said omg, you womens who work in the field are evil and should be ashamed! 

So get it through your head, no one was making generalizations about you or people who worked during pregnancy in the field.


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## LucidResq (Jun 29, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Doesn't matter, no life is worth money to me.



Then I hope you're planning to completely avoid caffeine, coming within 5 feet of microwave ovens, corn oil, pumping your own gas, food dyes, potatos, baking soda, table salt and table sugar during the entirety of your pregnancy. All are considered teratogenic and have been shown to cause risk to a developing fetus.   

This is probably where Medic744 is feeling attacked. It seems as so though you are saying that she risked her own child's life for money, which is something you would not personally do. Every woman must make a rational evaluation of the possible risks she will inevitably take during pregnancy.


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## Medic744 (Jun 29, 2009)

Don't forget fish, cigarette smoke, vehicle exhaust, most OTC drugs, hot hot showers or baths, and a whole other laundry list of things.  Sasha Im sorry that you think that your opinion is the only one for you but I am going to take a wild guess and say you have never had to make this decision.  When you do have to make the decision you may change your mind about how you feel.  Also, as an old saying goes, "never ask a question that you don't want the answer to."


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jun 29, 2009)

Since I am not in this situation (of having a wife that is pregnant... not of being pregnant ) I can blab all day about what I would personally do, but it is all hypothetical.  If that day should come (God, please no!) then I would want to be in a position where I could enable a pregnant wife to take as much time off as is needed an/or desired on her part.  But I can not say, "This is what I would do and in no way should she work and endanger herself and the child" nor can I intelligently judge someone else in a completely different situation than me just because their decisions differs.  Prelanning and living life are not two concepts that always go hand in hand and we all have to adapt to it while maintaining our values, no matter what plans and philosopies we have formulated prior.


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## ResTech (Jun 29, 2009)

Mountain... one of the best, to the point, and most well articulated posts on here in a long time!! And it didn't include telling someone they were wrong, inexperienced, or uneducated. How 'bout that.


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## Sasha (Jun 29, 2009)

Medic744 said:


> Don't forget fish, cigarette smoke, vehicle exhaust, most OTC drugs, hot hot showers or baths, and a whole other laundry list of things.  Sasha Im sorry that you think that your opinion is the only one for you but I am going to take a wild guess and say you have never had to make this decision.  When you do have to make the decision you may change your mind about how you feel.  Also, as an old saying goes, "never ask a question that you don't want the answer to."



You're the one who feels your choice was the only right one. Never did I say your opinion or choice was wrong, but it is not the right one for me. Once I become pregnant and find out, I'm off the truck til after the baby is born. 

Don't make assumptions based on YOUR experiences that I will change my mind. 

Yes, there are a million things that are supposed to be bad for babies and pregnant women, but to me, putting myself in a position with an increased chance of being whacked in the stomach by a violent patient, crashing while driving code 3, poked with a contaminated needle, overly strained and stressed is not a choice I will ever consider.


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## Sasha (Jun 29, 2009)

> And it didn't include telling someone they were wrong, inexperienced, or uneducated. How 'bout that.



Sorry where do you see that on this thread?


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## Shishkabob (Jun 29, 2009)

ResTech said:


> Mountain... one of the best, to the point, and most well articulated posts on here in a long time!! And it didn't include telling someone they were wrong, inexperienced, or uneducated. How 'bout that.



Take a picture of it.  Lucid LOVES to tell people what to do


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## Sasha (Jun 29, 2009)

> But I can not say, "This is what I would do and in no way should she work and endanger herself and the child" nor can I intelligently judge someone else in a completely different situation than me just because their decisions differs. Prelanning and living life are not two concepts that always go hand in hand and we all have to adapt to it while maintaining our values, no matter what plans and philosopies we have formulated prior.



Who is judging her? No where did anyone say she was wrong or bad or selfish or evil or off her rocker for that. No where.


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## ResTech (Jun 29, 2009)

> And it didn't include telling someone they were wrong, inexperienced, or uneducated. How 'bout that.



Here of late, ne time someone posts a comment or opinion, there are the few who always have to exert their superior being and intellect and tell everyone how wrong, inexperienced, or uneducated someone is or how they would do it so much better. 

That's why it is refreshing to see a post such as Mountains.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jun 29, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Who is judging her? No where did anyone say she was wrong or bad or selfish or evil or off her rocker for that. No where.



Nor did I say that anyone else was...  I was just making a statement as to my beliefs... same as you... only I tend to be a little more PC and polite...  

Basically, I don't think is a good idea to be working past the 2 trimester in any job and probably no more than 1/2 way through the pregnancy for field EMSers... but it is not my call to make, and I will trust a responsible woman to make the best choice for her and a child to which she has a connection to that I don't.


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## ResTech (Jun 29, 2009)

Sasha... its best just to agree to disagree... u are being very condescending by making the statement that you would never work EMS if pregnant. That's why you irritated somebody. You have a great thought and hopefully you or ne woman for that matter would never have to work EMS when they really don't want to. But life is life and you can't always control what comes ur way and when. I remember saying certain things and having this perfect perception of my life when I was much younger.... and looking back I was so naive and unprepared... so point in being... its ur opinion... but also a naive one.

When the bills need paid and pregnancy needs insurance coverage, its not the time to take chances of finding another job when the job market sucks as it is.


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## Sasha (Jun 29, 2009)

> I remember saying certain things and having this perfect perception of my life when I was much younger.... and looking back I was so naive and unprepared... so point in being... its ur opinion... but also a naive one.



Don't compare me to you. I plan out my life and take steps to assure those plans are followed. I may be young, but that doesn't make me naive.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jun 29, 2009)

ResTech said:


> Here of late, ne time someone posts a comment or opinion, there are the few who always have to exert their superior being and intellect and tell everyone how wrong, inexperienced, or uneducated someone is or how they would do it so much better.
> 
> That's why it is refreshing to see a post such as Mountains.



The following comment is in reference to posts in general, not to this thread:

IMHO, there is a lot of talk of being educated on the forums, but with education tends to come an aire of superiority; as if having more schooling (if not experience and common sense) gives you a better handle on the world and the right to voice and opinion on everything... an opinion that is not really an opinion, but a statement of fact... the world according to the poster.  I believe that the smartest people in the world, the only folks I will listen to, are the ones willing to say "I do not know" and "You might be right" and "In my opinion... but I understand what you mean and respect that view."  The world (and the forums) would be better off with a little more humility based on education.  Then again, we are all type A folks and that may be too much to ask.


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## reaper (Jun 29, 2009)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> The following comment is in reference to posts in general, not to this thread:
> 
> IMHO, there is a lot of talk of being educated on the forums, but with education tends to come an aire of superiority; as if having more schooling (if not experience and common sense) gives you a better handle on the world and the right to voice and opinion on everything... an opinion that is not really an opinion, but a statement of fact... the world according to the poster.  I believe that the smartest people in the world, the only folks I will listen to, are the ones willing to say "I do not know" and "You might be right" and "In my opinion... but I understand what you mean and respect that view."  The world (and the forums) would be better off with a little more humility based on education.  Then again, we are all type A folks and that may be too much to ask.




I beleive that the smartest people are the ones that learn from their elders, that have been there and done it! Instead of trying to make the same mistakes over again or reinvent the wheel!


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## medic417 (Jun 29, 2009)

I'm glad I'm not female.  

I do feel it is unfair for a female to stay on the job when they hit the point they can no longer lift or crawl into cars, etc because of baby.  But I also think it is unfair for a fat person that can not do their job either.  And I also disagree with a scrawny weakling being in EMS.  In short when a person can not do the job get out.  

As to risks what research has been done to see just how much risk it is for the unborn?


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## LucidResq (Jun 29, 2009)

medic417 said:


> As to risks what research has been done to see just how much risk it is for the unborn?



I will redirect you to the source for the information I previously posted, evidence-based guidelines posted by the UK's Royal College of Physicians and the NHS Plus Occupational Health Clinical Effectiveness Unit: 

Physical and shift work in pregnancy


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jun 29, 2009)

reaper said:


> I beleive that the smartest people are the ones that learn from their elders, that have been there and done it! Instead of trying to make the same mistakes over again or reinvent the wheel!



And I believe that it would be easier to to listen to our elders, respect their opinions, and follow their lead, if they approached educating the youngins in a more approachable manner.  Age doesn't make you superior to me.  Education doesn't make you superior to me.  Power doesn't make you superior to me.  I respect people whose personality and actions (and words on the forums - tone and attitude) warrent it.  I give everyone the same base level of respect and consideration when I first meet them.  Then, they speak and conduct themselves, actions that dictate to me if my respect for you rises or falls.  If i respect you, I listen to you and value your insight.  No respect... then no one listens to you... and I often skip over some folks posts for this reason.

NOTE:  This is not dirrected to anyone in particular, especially not Reaper...


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## Flight-LP (Jun 29, 2009)

ResTech said:


> But life is life and you can't always control what comes ur way and when.
> 
> When the bills need paid and pregnancy needs insurance coverage, its not the time to take chances of finding another job when the job market sucks as it is.



Actually, call me ignorant, but you do have some control over what comes your way. Its called an informed decision and thoughts about contraception. Hate to be the a$$ of the thread, but the "its out of my control" statements are completely inaccurate.

It is an individual decision whether to work or not, TO A POINT. If there is an issue with safe operation of a unit that is directly coorelated to a pregnant medic, then she needs to come off of the unit. In the air environment if there is a safety related issue, then she WILL come off of the unit, no questions asked. Laws in place to protect workers only require continuation of benefits and compensation, it does not require the same position. Also, I need to research it a little more, but I do believe there is an exemption to the rule for a medically related inability to continue the same duties. I guess I'll be hitting google tonight!

Sasha, despite some opinions, I commend you for planning out your life and establishing limits and goals. Hopefully life will not throw you a curve ball, but at least you are thinking about a way to deal with it. That is rare in our younger population these days.

Folks, some of ya need to take a summer vacation. Too much tension around here lately.


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## Medic744 (Jun 29, 2009)

I have never said Im right and you are wrong, what I have said is that it is wrong to not consider every point of view.  On this or any other subject.  And no I am not comparing myself to any other job field because like I said I get a heads up, they dont.  As for planning your life that is wonderful and I hope all goes as planned, but as you gain more life experience you will learn that things don't always go according to plan.  That is not a knock on younger people but as life goes on you learn that what you once thought, felt and planned is no longer the same.  That is ok.  I had been told once "If you want to hear God laugh, tell him you have a plan."  .  I totally agree that it is not right for every woman to work (at any job) while pregnant, but if you can and it is a must, then go for it and there is not anybody out there that should be able to hold you back.  The whole point is to have an open forum in which to exchange ideas and opinions and with a hope that everyone walks away with a new view of any situation.  All I have been trying to get across is that you cannot judge someone until you have lived their life and had to face the challenges they have.


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## Flight-LP (Jun 29, 2009)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> And I believe that it would be easier to to listen to our elders, respect their opinions, and follow their lead, if they approached educating the youngins in a more approachable manner.  Age doesn't make you superior to me.  Education doesn't make you superior to me.  Power doesn't make you superior to me.  I respect people whose personality and actions (and words on the forums - tone and attitude) warrent it.  I give everyone the same base level of respect and consideration when I first meet them.  Then, they speak and conduct themselves, actions that dictate to me if my respect for you rises or falls.  If i respect you, I listen to you and value your insight.  No respect... then no one listens to you... and I often skip over some folks posts for this reason.
> 
> NOTE:  This is not dirrected to anyone in particular, especially not Reaper...



While I do respect the ideology behind your post, you really should be cautious as this can backfire on you. One day you may fail to listen to the wrong person because you do not respect them and find yourself out of a job. 

I differ in opinion on one aspect though; a person with more education and experience is inherently superior by definition. What you do with the knowledge or insight given is your choice, but at least listening to someone who has walked that mile may prove to be worthwhile despite personal opinion of them as an individual.


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## Sasha (Jun 29, 2009)

> Actually, call me ignorant, but you do have some control over what comes your way. Its called an informed decision and thoughts about contraception. Hate to be the a$$ of the thread, but the "its out of my control" statements are completely inaccurate.



I agree completely.


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## Medic744 (Jun 29, 2009)

The only birth control that is 100% effective is abstinence.  Every form has a failure rate.  I don't regret that mine failed.


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## LucidResq (Jun 29, 2009)

Flight-LP said:


> Actually, call me ignorant, but you do have some control over what comes your way. Its called an informed decision and thoughts about contraception. Hate to be the a$$ of the thread, but the "its out of my control" statements are completely inaccurate.



While I agree with you for the most part here and wish that women, in general, were more proactive and educated as far as family planning goes, I would like to point out that the only 100% effective form of birth control is abstinence, and even with perfect use all forms of contraception have a fail rate. Working the position I have in OB-GYN, in less than a year I have seen at least 5 pregnancies that occurred with perfect usage of OCPs, NuvaRing, etc, 10+ that have occurred with IUDs (they don't work when they are accidentally placed improperly or slip out of place), and at least 2 tubal ligation failures.  



Flight-LP said:


> Laws in place to protect workers only require continuation of benefits and compensation, it does not require the same position. Also, I need to research it a little more, but I do believe there is an exemption to the rule for a medically related inability to continue the same duties. I guess I'll be hitting google tonight!



I absolutely agree that a pregnant woman should only be allowed to continue in the same position so long as she is absolutely capable of safely and competently performing the job duties. But the law does in fact state that pregnant women must be treated equally for *all* employment-related purposes  "as other persons not so affected but similar in their ability or inability to work." The protection of the law does indeed extend beyond benefits and compensation, so long as they are able to work.


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## Flight-LP (Jun 30, 2009)

LucidResq said:


> While I agree with you for the most part here and wish that women, in general, were more proactive and educated as far as family planning goes, I would like to point out that the only 100% effective form of birth control is abstinence, and even with perfect use all forms of contraception have a fail rate. Working the position I have in OB-GYN, in less than a year I have seen at least 5 pregnancies that occurred with perfect usage of OCPs, NuvaRing, etc, 10+ that have occurred with IUDs (they don't work when they are accidentally placed improperly or slip out of place), and at least 2 tubal ligation failures.
> 
> 
> 
> I absolutely agree that a pregnant woman should only be allowed to continue in the same position so long as she is absolutely capable of safely and competently performing the job duties. But the law does in fact state that pregnant women must be treated equally for *all* employment-related purposes  "as other persons not so affected but similar in their ability or inability to work." The protection of the law does indeed extend beyond benefits and compensation, so long as they are able to work.



Very true, all do have a failure rate, albeit rather low when used perfectly or overseen by a healthcare professional. But, again, the second that you get the twinkle in your eye, the decision has to be made, and it is made based by you in a consentual action. Therefore, the old saying of "it takes two to tango" comes into play. Sorry, it is what it is, you make the decision. If a pregnancy is not an opportune idea at this time, perhaps abstinence is a good call.........................

For your reference...............

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.10&idno=14

§ 91.3   Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

Case closed, if the pregnant female cannot safely perform the required duties expected of her as a crewmember, then she doesn't fly. Simple as that. I've worked with nurses and medics that have had to work off of the aircraft because their pregnancy interfered with their ability to operate. Its nothing personal, but safety comes before your personal want of remaining in a particular position. We have enough risks out there, we will not add additional ones that we can control.


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## ResTech (Jun 30, 2009)

> Its called an informed decision and thoughts about contraception.



I have to laugh at that... if only we lived in a perfect world that would come into play more often then not! Obviously, many of you guys (and perhaps girls) have never found ur self in positions that often with a hottie and you have to make that "in the moment decision"..... lets see how that would play....  "stop, time out... time for a family planning meeting before we go ne further"... "ok, cool... lets put our clothes back on and talk about this"... NOT!


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## Sasha (Jun 30, 2009)

ResTech said:


> I have to laugh at that... if only we lived in a perfect world that would come into play more often then not! Obviously, many of you guys (and perhaps girls) have never found ur self in positions that often with a hottie and you have to make that "in the moment decision"..... lets see how that would play....  "stop, time out... time for a family planning meeting before we go ne further"... "ok, cool... lets put our clothes back on and talk about this"... NOT!



Can, have, and will again in the future should the situation arise again. As I said, I have plans and I plan to stick to them, I'm responsible enough to say "Hey, I'm not ready for a baby so go get a condom" or "Perhaps another time"

And I also use birth control and condoms, the chance of both failing at the same exact time is pretty slim.


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## ResTech (Jun 30, 2009)

Some guys can be pretty convincing... ha ha


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## Medic744 (Jun 30, 2009)

I agree that if the medic cannot perform her duties (pregnant or not) then to another position she goes, but if she can and is fired, made to take another position, or receives less pay or benefits because she is pregnant it is discrimination.  All jobs are based on your ability to perform the tasks asked of you.  The day that you can't man or woman then it is time to re-evaluate.  For my particular situation I had a long discussion with my Director and we went over many aspects and situations and both agreed that we would re-evaluate as time went on.  As far as family planning if every one waited for the perfect time to have children there would be very few in the world.  It wasnt a good time for me but we are making it work and loving every minute.  And by the way I was very vigilant about my birth control and took it correctly at the same time every day and was followed by a healthcare profession.  I may not have been ready but a higher power than I thought I would be the best choice to bring a new soul into the world and Im glad that for whatever reason one super sperm joined with one super egg and produced a perfect little boy.


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## Shishkabob (Jun 30, 2009)

If you decide to have sex, you decide to live with the consequences, both positive and negative. (For the most part)


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## ResTech (Jun 30, 2009)

> As far as family planning if every one waited for the perfect time to have children there would be very few in the world.



They're is something to be said about this statement. I have heard many ppl say how they have their plans of being financially stable, a good career, or whatever before having kids.... and as Medic744 said... our population would dwindle pretty fast. Its awesome that ppl can plan and follow through with it on their defined time table... but life usually does not go that way. 

If I waited until I was financially stable or my life master plan to come to fruition before having kids, I would be without the three awesome kids I have now and missed a heck of a lot of great memories and defining moments.

People really need to understand that life happens and stop being all mighty and lose the attitude of "she should have made better choices" or "she should have used contraception" or "she's pregnant by her own choice or carelessness so who cares how her not working affects her personal life". If someone is pregnant in your service, be supportive of their decision whatever it may be... that's all we are really saying. If a woman decides to work EMS... then so be it.... who cares.... its not your baby she is carrying (or is it  ) And the risks really aren't all that great in a normal pregnancy.


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## Shishkabob (Jun 30, 2009)

ResTech said:


> People really need to understand that life happens and stop being all mighty and lose the attitude of "she should have made better choices" or "she should have used contraception".



That's not the point being made at all (or atleast not the one I'm making)

It's, don't go complaining about how you couldn't continue with your original plans because of your kids, that one way or the other, you chose to have.







And, since my luck is JUST that fantastic, I'll probably have 3 kids of my own within 9 months just to shut me up.  Oh yea, I'm that good.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jun 30, 2009)

Flight-LP said:


> While I do respect the ideology behind your post, you really should be cautious as this can backfire on you. One day you may fail to listen to the wrong person because you do not respect them and find yourself out of a job.
> 
> I differ in opinion on one aspect though;* a person with more education and experience is inherently superior by definition*. What you do with the knowledge or insight given is your choice, but at least listening to someone who has walked that mile may prove to be worthwhile despite personal opinion of them as an individual.



Interesting.  So a high school graduate working at McDonalds is superior (which I take to mean a better human being) than some child living in Darfur?  I do not agree at all with this.  I look at government as an example.  How many in government graduated from Yale, Harvard, and the like?  They have more education and experience in life than me, yet I do not consider tehm seperior, nor do I have much respect for more than 95% of them.  On the other hand, someone wiht a paramedic level of certification is legally superior to me in his legal capabilities... he is my superior... but that does not make him superior.  There are many people in life (and some on these forums) that are more educated and experienced than me... and yet, I consider them (based on their atitude adn actions here) to be inferier human beings...  On the other hand, there are some here with less education and experience (or the same amount) that I am proud to call fellow EMSers.  Education might make you *A* SUPERIOR... but not SUPERIOR!


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## Medic744 (Jun 30, 2009)

I agree Mountain.  Education may allow you to have more book knowledge than some one else but nothing in a book can teach you to be a decent person and nothing translates to the real world and how to be a productive and generous member of society.


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## cwilliamson (Jun 30, 2009)

medic744 im so happy you think im one of the best people in the world!!!


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## Medic744 (Jun 30, 2009)

You know I love you!  If it werent for your random texts I would be very bored.


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## cwilliamson (Jun 30, 2009)

i know right!!! anyways back to this form, I respect any one that can sit at home for 9 months and not do anything! thats just not for me i have a problem not doing something for 8 hours much less a day! second any female that will not go around microwaves and all that other bs is the same person that will keep their kid in a bubble for the rest of their life!


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jun 30, 2009)

cwilliamson said:


> i know right!!! anyways back to this form, I respect any one that can sit at home for 9 months and not do anything! thats just not for me i have a problem not doing something for 8 hours much less a day! second any female that will not go around microwaves and all that other bs is the same person that will keep their kid in a bubble for the rest of their life!



Hey...  living in a bubble ain't all that bad... and my mom said that it was just until my head hardened up a bit.  It does make driving code a bit problematic...  but "overcome challenges" and all that, right!  it would be nice to breath non-filtered air just once though...  ahhh... wishfully thinking...  -_-


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## Medic744 (Jun 30, 2009)

and Skittles was her stage name!


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## cwilliamson (Jun 30, 2009)

haha that gives a whole new meaning to head to to BSI!


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## cwilliamson (Jun 30, 2009)

hey you leave her out of this! she makes one hell of a sandwich!


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## Flight-LP (Jun 30, 2009)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> Interesting.  So a high school graduate working at McDonalds is superior (which I take to mean a better human being) than some child living in Darfur?  I do not agree at all with this.  I look at government as an example.  How many in government graduated from Yale, Harvard, and the like?  They have more education and experience in life than me, yet I do not consider tehm seperior, nor do I have much respect for more than 95% of them.  On the other hand, someone wiht a paramedic level of certification is legally superior to me in his legal capabilities... he is my superior... but that does not make him superior.  There are many people in life (and some on these forums) that are more educated and experienced than me... and yet, I consider them (based on their atitude adn actions here) to be inferier human beings...  On the other hand, there are some here with less education and experience (or the same amount) that I am proud to call fellow EMSers.  Education might make you *A* SUPERIOR... but not SUPERIOR!



Your opinion is fine, but by definition, yes they are. The Darfur example is a poor analogy and yes someone having gainful employment in the safe environment of the US is in most aspects superior to living in the atrocities of Darfur.

Whether you respect someone is your own decision, my point is that all too often, the younger generation weighes too heavily on their opinions instead of actually listening to those who may be able to influence them. That instant mental block prohibits some folks from internalizing information and actually learning something that may be beneficial to their career and more importantly, their future patients.

When you were in high school, did you actually listen to your teachers? What if you had no interest in the subject, did you do the work anyways? More than likely you did, because that was what was required of you. You didn't do it because you liked it. 

Employment in EMS is the same methodology. When you start, you are to learn and listen. No one really cares your personal thoughts on someone, but you still listen to them. Once you get some experience under your belt, then you can start waving your opinions around.

The same goes for this whole preggo issue. Sorry, but yes people do need to be mindful of their decisions and my thought process has no bearing or proportion to the amount of "hotties" i've been with. You can make that decision even in the heat of the moment, been there, done that, and if I wasn't married and was out playing the field again, I would. 

Yea guys can be convincing, its called manipulation to get what they want. Don't fall for it!
Or perhaps its a two way street and the lady is also looking for something. Again, it IS an informed decision in most cases......................................

Bringing a child into this world is an absolute blessing. My kids are the light of my life. But just as there is increasing inmaturity in our career field, there is also increasing irresponsibility without acceptance of responsibility. Some folks need to see that and stop displacing blame.


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## Medic744 (Jun 30, 2009)

Flight-LP said:


> Your opinion is fine, but by definition, yes they are. The Darfur example is a poor analogy and yes someone having gainful employment in the safe environment of the US is in most aspects superior to living in the atrocities of Darfur.
> 
> Whether you respect someone is your own decision, my point is that all too often, the younger generation weighes too heavily on their opinions instead of actually listening to those who may be able to influence them. That instant mental block prohibits some folks from internalizing information and actually learning something that may be beneficial to their career and more importantly, their future patients.
> 
> ...




Im not sure how people not taking responsibility for their actions came into play.  The whole issue was if a pregnant woman should or could work throughout the pregnancy.  Also I think Mountain was just trying to get across that just because you have an IQ higher than others or went to school longer doesn't mean that you are superior to anybody.  There is nobody out there that is superior to anybody but I hate to say it if you go through life acting like you are superior to someone because for whatever reason they did not receive the level of education that you have you are not going to be well liked.  As far as Im concerned in the entire medical field we can all learn from each other, no matter what letters you add to end of your name.  Schooling doesn't equal superiority


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## reaper (Jun 30, 2009)

No one is saying they are Superior to anyone else. What is being said is that there are people that will automatically assume that they know what they are doing and will not listen to the ones that have the experience over them. You see it here all the time, when someone corrects a noobies post. They take it personal and go into a hissy fit.

Stop, Listen and Learn from the ones that have more education, more experience and have made the same mistakes that you may be heading for. Why make the same mistake over, if you can learn from those that have done it?

Were you instructors in school brand new EMT's or Medics? NO, they were not. Most are experienced providers with a lot more education then you. That is why you went to them to learn. Why is it any different in life or on a forum?


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jun 30, 2009)

I will point out three things...



Flight-LP said:


> Your opinion is fine, but by definition, yes they are. The Darfur example is a poor analogy and yes *someone having gainful employment in the safe environment of the US is in most aspects superior to living in the atrocities of Darfur*.
> 
> Whether you respect someone is your own decision, my point is that* all too often, the younger generation weighes too heavily on their opinions instead of actually listening to those who may be able to influence them. That instant mental block prohibits some folks from internalizing information and actually learning something that may be beneficial to their career and more importantly, their future patients.*
> 
> ...



Superior to SOMEONE Living in Darfur?  Or to Living in Darfur.  They are stll not s auperior human being, just have better circumstances.  Doesn't make THEM better... just their situation.

Yes, actually my philosphy here on respect and listening still applys.  I can think of sevral teaches that I respected and would listen to becasue they cared and wanted to teach; showing a personal interest... I loved doing the work they assigned (and then some)and excelled in the subjects they taught.  Other teachers sucked; so I only did the work because I had to and got in to far more trouble (in grade school) when I had such teachers.

I agree with that last highlighted point.  But you can not blame it all on the youngins.  They need to learn to listen from the getgo.  But even if they listen initially, who can blame them when all they get is attitude, put downs, and "old fart" flack?  I am only 26, young to some... but with EMTs and FFs hitting the streets at 17-18 years old, I have been considered by some to be a old salt.  I too find the attitudes and habits of these younger ones to be strange, as I seemed to have skipped my teen years.  I LOVE taking newbies under my wing and making sure that they are prepared for the real world aspects of EMS and SAR.  I have met those that think they know it all and WILL NOT listent to what anyone with more insight (not neccessarily knowledge) has to say.  Others want the outside influence to guide them, but will only accept it from those that provide it in an appropriate manner; never acting superior (even if, in your opinion, they are).  I work with several people who are vastly superior in knowledge, age, and ability than me who are positions of authority; some with "superiority complexes" and some with a humble "come, let me teach you" attitude... like myself.  Who do you think the youngins want to learn from?  Which environment do you think enables them (generally speaking) to learn better and more?  I may be superior in knowledge and ability and experience to some newbies, but why beat them over the head with it?  If I am truley a "good human being" (superior in cetain ways) than my actions and teh way I conduct myself will demonstrate that to them and then maybe they will have some respect for waht I have to say.  IMHO... and I am willing to say that I might be wrong in my analysis of the world, but this is my experience...


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## Medic744 (Jun 30, 2009)

Well put Mountain


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jun 30, 2009)

reaper said:


> No one is saying they are Superior to anyone else.



No one has to say it.  They way the conduct themselves and respond to people is at issue.  You can say the same thing two different ways and it comes out two COMPLETELY different ways... a reflection of your attitude.  A humble person with more knowledge and experience doesn't need to flaunt it, but kindly offers their opinion based on their "superiority" in the hopes of helping others.  A person who believes themselves to be better and wants to prove it will do and say anything to elevate themselves over others, regardless of just how "superior" they really are.  In reality hardly anyone respects them enough to listen to them.  Many pople here speak of increasing education... I can not argue with that.  But many of those same people "beat down" those with lesser education who are endeavoring to increase it.  "Until you get to my level, you are beneath me!!!"  Is see it in real life and hear.  It is sad because those same people who have so much to offer in the way of education and encouragement are often ignored... due in large part to their attitude which can turn even the most respectful and eager to learn newbie away.  IMHO.

I know that my line of thought here ventures away from the prego thread base, but I beleive taht the reason so many threads turn into fights is that no one is willing to approach discussions with a humble attitude; a discussion between fellow EMSers and human beings.  Too many people want to prove how smart and superior they are by shouting it out in posts... the world according to the poster "listen to me and respect me."  When it comes to the issue of pregnancy in EMS, there are obviously many viewpoints and personal beliefs on what should be done my THEMSELVES.  They all have merit and should be analyized objectively and personal desisions should be made that reflect the reality for that person.  Any while I and any of you can say "this is what I would do and this is why", it is no my place or anyones to say "this is how it is!" IMHO


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## Medic744 (Jun 30, 2009)

The wisest man I know once told me "Its not what you say but how you say it."


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## reaper (Jun 30, 2009)

I believe that is what this thread was all about, before it was taken personally!

Most true educators do not beat around the bush or sugar coat things. This can be taken in a negative view, in a written forum. If you are here to truly learn something, then you let it slide off and take in what they are trying to teach. EMS has never been for the faint at heart or the easily offendable. Most of the time, there is not time to sugar coat things. You get to the point and teach what needs to be known.

So, advice for any new person to the forum or EMS. Do not take offense to what someone says. Listen to what they are saying and learn from it!


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## Medic744 (Jun 30, 2009)

The only people in world who don't learn are those with a closed mind.


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## Flight-LP (Jul 1, 2009)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> Superior to SOMEONE Living in Darfur?  Or to Living in Darfur.  They are stll not s auperior human being, just have better circumstances.  Doesn't make THEM better... just their situation.



You are absolutely correct about my choice of semantics. I stand corrected and thank you for bringing this point out.



Mountain Res-Q said:


> I agree with that last highlighted point.  But you can not blame it all on the youngins.  They need to learn to listen from the getgo.  But even if they listen initially, who can blame them when all they get is attitude, put downs, and "old fart" flack?  I am only 26, young to some... but with EMTs and FFs hitting the streets at 17-18 years old, I have been considered by some to be a old salt.  I too find the attitudes and habits of these younger ones to be strange, as I seemed to have skipped my teen years.  I LOVE taking newbies under my wing and making sure that they are prepared for the real world aspects of EMS and SAR.  I have met those that think they know it all and WILL NOT listent to what anyone with more insight (not neccessarily knowledge) has to say.  Others want the outside influence to guide them, but will only accept it from those that provide it in an appropriate manner; never acting superior (even if, in your opinion, they are).  I work with several people who are vastly superior in knowledge, age, and ability than me who are positions of authority; some with "superiority complexes" and some with a humble "come, let me teach you" attitude... like myself.  Who do you think the youngins want to learn from?  Which environment do you think enables them (generally speaking) to learn better and more?  I may be superior in knowledge and ability and experience to some newbies, but why beat them over the head with it?  If I am truley a "good human being" (superior in cetain ways) than my actions and teh way I conduct myself will demonstrate that to them and then maybe they will have some respect for waht I have to say.  IMHO... and I am willing to say that I might be wrong in my analysis of the world, but this is my experience...



Well spoken and I think we are more on the same page than you thank. But their is a reason to beat them over the head with it. That reason is the patients that will rely on these hard heads to ensure the delivery of quality care. Doing things half a$$ed from the get-go not only leads to bad habits and complacency, it can and probably will cause malfeasance. We are resobsible for leading the future of this industry. We preach what we want to succeed, we must also act to ensure that success. I am not in this industry to be liked or accepted as friendly. I have my social circle and my family. My purpose in medicine is to provide exceptional care to the best of my capabilities and to promote the future of pre-hospital and interfacility medicine. No less is expected from me and I expect no less from those under my wing............................

More to come, gotta fly for now.....................


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