# Medic Cert to Medic Degree



## 46Young (Dec 1, 2009)

I'll agree that it would be in the industry's best interests to have all medics holding degrees. I'm interested in upgrading my tech cert to an Assosciates. I intend to speak with career development when I go back to work tomorrow. Does anyone have any insight for the process, any known scams or irreputable colleges? Also, what would the upgrade entail? Would it be solely didactic if prior work Hx is considered? 

If anyone knows of a good college, preferably online (full or partial) for busy working professionals, please share with the forum. If it's an easy enough transition, perhaps many of us tech cert individuals could be encouraged to upgrade to a legit degree for the benefit of our pts, ourselves, and the profession.


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## 46Young (Dec 1, 2009)

Some of the education advocates may want to check out this link that promotes a degree over tech certs

http://www.worldwidelearn.com/online-education-guide/health-medical/emt-paramedic-major.htm


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## 46Young (Dec 1, 2009)

I found this real quick - 

http://www.worldwidelearn.com/campus-information/302107/162008/

I already have the medic credentials, FF 1 and 2, as well as life experiences. It seems too easy, though. I'm wondering if schools like this are legit or are just joke degrees, only looking for your money.


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## Nick647 (Dec 1, 2009)

You brought up a good point here.  One of the things I might to do to persure EMS line of work and eventually firefighting is to go and get my EMT Basic cert first.  What might happen though is that I might go to a community college in maine that has a paramedicine program and a fire science program (it would be nice to double major if it is available).  Anyways, with the paramedicine program though they have a requirement that you must have the Basic certification and must have 50 calls documented.  So with that, I might go get my basic certification and atleast try to get on an ambulance company that I can get some experience with.  One on the North Shore being Action because they offer facility to facility training.  Another is the call/volly Fire Dept. in the town I live in because they have a rescue unit (two ambulances).  So either way I might go and get experience with those two and then get a degree in Paramedicine and/or Fire science.  Just thought I would mention.


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## triemal04 (Dec 1, 2009)

I'm betting the place you found online is a scam of one sort or another; I'm not a fan of online programs so I'm a bit biased but regardless it'd be worth looking into first.  National College in Salem offers a paramedic degree also.

For anyone who's interested the first step would be to look around your state; find out which college, if any, offer a degree in EMS, and then contact them.  If you are allready a paramedic that part will probably transfer (but may not so check) which would leave you with the core classes to finish.  Given that you are allready a medic there isn't a huge rush to get it done, so if it takes a bit longer to finish the classes...meh.

Also be worth looking into these sites:
http://www.caahep.org/  Lists schools that have accredited health programs; if the school you choose isn't listed it's not a deal breaker for getting your degree, but it's worth checking.
http://ope.ed.gov/accreditation/  Lists all accredited colleges in the US.  If your school is not listed that IS a deal breaker.  Don't bother even talking with them.


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## EMSLaw (Dec 2, 2009)

46Young said:


> I found this real quick -
> 
> http://www.worldwidelearn.com/campus-information/302107/162008/
> 
> I already have the medic credentials, FF 1 and 2, as well as life experiences. It seems too easy, though. I'm wondering if schools like this are legit or are just joke degrees, only looking for your money.



Surprisingly (at least to me), Baker seems to be legit.  They are accredited by the regional accrediting body, and have been around for a while (accredited for more than 30 years).  Looks like it's probably not a scam, though I only saw that BS, not AAS that you mentioned.


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## mikie (Dec 2, 2009)

*Well, not an associates...*

**delete***sorry


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## 46Young (Dec 10, 2009)

Update - Career Development advised me that all community colleges in VA have 100% transfer between them. These credits are also honored 100% by all 4 year universities in state as well. That's cool, because someone who seeks a 4 year degree only needs to pay the big bucks for the final two years.

The educational requirements for promotion are currently being restructured, but education will be weighed heavily. For certain, promotion to LT will require an Assosciate's, and promotion to Capt I and above will require a Bachelor's at the minimum. Degrees need to be job related, so RN, EMS, Emergency Management, Business Admin, EMS Management, etc. are all desireable. I won't need a Bachelor's for at least another 7-8 years, so I'll likely go EMS AAS, ASN, then EMS admin. I'll do fire science later, if I'm bored, as these other degrees will help career advancement to a greater degree.

I've been advised that a medic tech cert will satisfy 40-42 credits. I'm not 100% sure of the exact #, but 40-42 or so for someone with no previous college is closely approximate. The program totals 68 credits. If my credits from Baruch transfer, I can use my elem Calculus, Psy, Soc, Eng, etc. My accounting credits will likely be obsolete for possible future application for a BBA/MBA program in the distant future if I decide to go that route (not likely, but you never know). Add in pharm and A&P, and I'm looking at maybe 15-20 credits at the most to complete the degree. I don't know why this didn't idea didn't occur to me several years ago.

http://www.nvcc.edu/.../pdf/ememed.pdf

Given the current state of EMS education, it's unlikely in the near future that the majority of prospective medics will opt for a degree program when easier, more efficient options exist, and are also abundant. I don't see it. The field is largely transient in nature, no one can deny that. When touting the benefits and necessity of legitimate education to advance the profession, both on internet forums and in the field, I believe that significant headway could be made by persuading cert medics to upgrade to a degree. It's not as desireable as starting off with a degree, but it's certainly much better than doing nothing. Perhaps the instruction in tech schools was substandard (depending on where you go) but going Medic tech cert > EMS AAS will still result in a higher percentage of the workforce holding degrees, for the benefit of the profession. A tech cert basically covers 60% or more of a degree program, and the remainer can be done piecemeal, one class at a time if one desires. Someone who doesn't have 2-3 years to complete an AAS initially can still do it while working FT having gone the cert route.


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## paccookie (Dec 11, 2009)

Try Darton College in Albany, GA.  I went to paramedic school there and graduated with both a certificate and an associates degree (redundant yes, but I worked for it, so why not?).  The associates degree basically includes all of your core classes for a 2 yr degree plus a medication math class (I think it's a 1 hr class online).  Darton offers all of the core classes online, so it wouldn't matter where you live except for the amount of tuition that you will end up paying.


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## terrible one (Dec 11, 2009)

Id be interested in an AA in paramedicine or even BA if offered. I think Loma Linda has something like that in SoCal


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## VentMedic (Dec 11, 2009)

terrible one said:


> Id be interested in an AA in paramedicine or even BA if offered. I think Loma Linda has something like that in SoCal


 
Loma Linda has a great program but it would be of no interest to the OP. 
http://www.llu.edu/allied-health/sahp/emc/index.page

For someone who types to a nauseating level on different EMS forums about his retirement accounts and brags about how much he makes, he isn't overly concerned or cautious about his education.  Thus, he is a prime candidate to get suckered into some scam from an out of state school that promises something real quick.


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## terrible one (Dec 11, 2009)

Thanks for the link Vent. Im def going to check them out.


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## 46Young (Dec 11, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Loma Linda has a great program but it would be of no interest to the OP.
> http://www.llu.edu/allied-health/sahp/emc/index.page
> 
> For someone who types to a nauseating level on different EMS forums about his retirement accounts and brags about how much he makes, he isn't overly concerned or cautious about his education.  Thus, he is a prime candidate to get suckered into some scam from an out of state school that promises something real quick.



This is where I'm going

http://www.nvcc.edu/curcatalog/programs/pdf/ememed.pdf The 2010 curriculum is basically the same A/P the Asst Dean, though I can't find the link for it.

37 credits for my prior training, plus another 12 from Baruch. 19 credits to go for the EMS AAS. The campus is only about 3 miles from my station, and around 30 miles from home. They also run a good number of these classes twice weekly to hook up the FF's who do shift work and cannot make it to one of them.

I never said that I'm not concerned about education, only that there's little financial incentive to rush through when I can do it smoother, maybe 2-3 classes at a time rather than 5. Earning these degrees won't have any immediate financial benefit, but will be important years down the road. My issue is with medical degree programs such as RN, RT, PA and such where the only option is to go for several years FT. Many already working FT as a necessity aren't able to make that great of a time commitment.


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## 46Young (Dec 11, 2009)

paccookie said:


> Try Darton College in Albany, GA.  I went to paramedic school there and graduated with both a certificate and an associates degree (redundant yes, but I worked for it, so why not?).  The associates degree basically includes all of your core classes for a 2 yr degree plus a medication math class (I think it's a 1 hr class online).  Darton offers all of the core classes online, so it wouldn't matter where you live except for the amount of tuition that you will end up paying.



Thanks for the tip, but I've found a school close to home and even closer to work.


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## jgmedic (Dec 12, 2009)

terrible one said:


> Id be interested in an AA in paramedicine or even BA if offered. I think Loma Linda has something like that in SoCal



LLU has the BA in Emergency Medical Care. Many of my medic instructors have gone through it and loved the program. My medic program(RCC) will issue an AS in EMS after completion of the paramedic program and your general ed.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Dec 12, 2009)

http://www.camdencc.edu/departments/paramedic/distancelearning.htm Ive planned on doing this for a while. looks great!


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## 46Young (Dec 12, 2009)

When moving from an AAS to a 4 year EMS degree, what additional clinical knowledge is taught? Is it mostly admin? I know that you can go to EMS admin for a 4 year. What other EMS related degrees/career paths can be built off of an EMS AAS?


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## VentMedic (Dec 12, 2009)

46Young said:


> When moving from an AAS to a 4 year EMS degree, what additional clinical knowledge is taught? Is it mostly admin? I know that you can go to EMS admin for a 4 year. What other EMS related degrees/career paths can be built off of an EMS AAS?


 
Look at the Loma Linda link I posted earlier in this thread for the different tracks.


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## 46Young (Dec 12, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Look at the Loma Linda link I posted earlier in this thread for the different tracks.



Checked iout the core curriculum, thanks. On first look the link mentioned prep for career leadership roles, which is quite a generalization.

You've mentioned that cert medics are ill prepared for IFT txp, particularly CCT and flight. I can see that. Do you feel that an EMS BA would be considered adequate prep, to then be built upon for the chosen specialty? What about only an EMS AAS? For sake of argument I'm referring to accredited schools, of course.


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## VentMedic (Dec 13, 2009)

46Young said:


> Checked iout the core curriculum, thanks. On first look the link mentioned prep for career leadership roles, which is quite a generalization.
> 
> You've mentioned that cert medics are ill prepared for IFT txp, particularly CCT and flight. I can see that. Do you feel that an EMS BA would be considered adequate prep, to then be built upon for the chosen specialty? What about only an EMS AAS? For sake of argument I'm referring to accredited schools, of course.


 
If Paramedics at least had college level A&P and pharmacology classes it would seriously be easier to teach them the advanced concepts needed for CCT and Flight. It is sad when we have to dumb down explainations for something like CPAP to "it pushes lung water" rather than discussing how it affects the hemodynamics of the cardiopulmonary system. Or, when the pharmacology is dumbed down to "lido numbs the heart". 

For those who want to teach, they should have no less than a B.S. or B.A. I had to get a Masters to teach in the college system. Part of the reason EMS is lagging is that there are too few educated mentors. In the tech schools, where being an instructor usually requires just a cert in EMS, you have the very minimally educated trying to teach those who may meet only the entry level of a GED or high school diploma. 

You have been too closed minded in your FD that you are clueless as to what is out there in the world of EMS and what the profession needs for leaders. You also have a negative attitude about any "management" unless it is in the ranks of the FD. 

Leadership also does not always equate "management". The leaders we need are the educated individuals providing patient care. For Flight and CCT, RNs and RRTs are expected to have much more than just a mere 2 year degree. Their educators in the colleges have no less than a Masters degree. Professionalism at the bedside and the foundation to advance in clinical knowledge is a necessity. It requires much more than just getting a couple of weekend cert patches. To some in EMS, the ACLS class is the equivalent of a college degree. That mentality needs to go away. As well, so does the monkey see monkey do way of teaching with just a skill and no education to back it up. 

It is time EMS steps up to become critical thinkers with guidelines rather than recipes that must be followed exactly. That is what Flight and CCT teams should be and EMS should get to that level also or at least strive for it.  That is the "leader" of tomorrow.


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## 46Young (Dec 13, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> If Paramedics at least had college level A&P and pharmacology classes it would seriously be easier to teach them the advanced concepts needed for CCT and Flight. It is sad when we have to dumb down explainations for something like CPAP to "it pushes lung water" rather than discussing how it affects the hemodynamics of the cardiopulmonary system. Or, when the pharmacology is dumbed down to "lido numbs the heart".
> 
> For those who want to teach, they should have no less than a B.S. or B.A. I had to get a Masters to teach in the college system. Part of the reason EMS is lagging is that there are too few educated mentors. In the tech schools, where being an instructor usually requires just a cert in EMS, you have the very minimally educated trying to teach those who may meet only the entry level of a GED or high school diploma.
> 
> ...



Fair enough. I'm going to knock out the EMS AAS, then I'll get back to you with a new perspective. It'll be interesting since I've worked 911 hosp based, third service, and fire based, with a tech cert. 

So what do you mean by my negative attitude towards management? My complaints have been mostly about favoritism and a general failure to consider the employees needs. It's typically that the system comes first, and the employee comes in at a distant second. There ought to be compromise. One hand washes the other, not domination by management or domination by labor.

Anyway, since tech schools far outnumber degree programs nationwide, tech grads ought to be persuaded by the educated to complete the degree. Here, at the worst, it's 31 credits to completion, and it can be sone as slowly or quickly as needed, given conflicts from work and home life.


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## VentMedic (Dec 13, 2009)

46Young said:


> Fair enough. I'm going to knock out the EMS AAS, then I'll get back to you with a new perspective.* It'll be interesting since I've worked 911 hosp based, third service, and fire based, with a tech cert. *


 
If you go into this thinking you know it all and have nothing more to learn you are just taking a class spot from someone else who is serious about medicine.

You either want to learn more or you don't. You have yet to state anything in your many posts about patient care and the benefits that might come out of having someone who a little more than what a tech cert brings. Many people on the different forums have tried to stress that to you but you still seem to miss the point totally. 

You are with a FD where EMS is probably just an add on for them and not to be taken for any more worth than extra money for the department to stay functioning. 

The senior members on another forum had it right. You are actually just trolling your anti-education views to get a response from those with education and who are serious about providing quality patient care. In other words, you and atropine are exactly alike.


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## 46Young (Dec 13, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> If you go into this thinking you know it all and have nothing more to learn you are just taking a class spot from someone else who is serious about medicine.
> 
> You either want to learn more or you don't. You have yet to state anything in your many posts about patient care and the benefits that might come out of having someone who a little more than what a tech cert brings. Many people on the different forums have tried to stress that to you but you still seem to miss the point totally.
> 
> ...



You're hurting my feelings.

My dept's been dual role for many years, since it's beginning as a paid dept, with a well funded fleet, EMS career tracks up to BC, and liberal protocols with only a few OLMC options necessary, a 16 week field internship for new ALS providers, we're in the process of upgrading all of our I's to P's via a degree program as well. But whatever, you've got it all figured out.

What I meant earlier is that I'll look back after having completed the degree and see what difference it would have had in pt care. Like I've said before, not many in NYC have medic degrees and I've worked with some very competent, professional individuals. But I don't know why I bother telling you that. In your eyes no one can possibly be good at EMS without a degree. Pure arrogance. I'll complete it, and see what the difference really is. I'll have the somewhat unique perspective of having worked each type of delivery model, and then getting the degree. I'll be able to really see the difference. Perhaps there really is a significant difference. I'll know when I finish the AAS. Sticks and stones.


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## VentMedic (Dec 13, 2009)

46Young said:


> What I meant earlier is that I'll look back after having completed the degree and see what difference it would have had in pt care. Like I've said before, not many in NYC have medic degrees and I've worked with some very competent, professional individuals. But I don't know why I bother telling you that. *In your eyes no one can possibly be good at EMS without a degree.* Pure arrogance. I'll complete it, and see what the difference really is. I'll have the somewhat unique perspective of having worked each type of delivery model, and then getting the degree. I'll be able to really see the difference. Perhaps there really is a significant difference. I'll know when I finish the AAS. Sticks and stones.


 
But then what education to you have to judge others for their competency?   If some look good in uniform and can talk a big talk, they are really competent according to some.  NYC is not exactly known for its EMS.   Lee County, Seattle and Wake county are known for their EMS.  Seattle requires much more training and education than NYC.  Lee county likes to see its Paramedics get their A.S. degree at the local college. 

Again, if you do not really have a desire to learn more and are entering this with the attitude you have displayed on the forums, let someone who does want to learn take that seat.   

In my eyes I would like to see EMS become a profession.  It is the only one besides OR tech, phlebotimist and MA that doesn't have at least a minimum of a two year degree.  Techs were great in the 1960s but not with today's medical advancements.  The fact that you can run through a recipe and maybe start an IV should no longer be good enough.


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## 46Young (Dec 13, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> But then what education to you have to judge others for their competency?   If some look good in uniform and can talk a big talk, they are really competent according to some.  NYC is not exactly known for its EMS.   Lee County, Seattle and Wake county are known for their EMS.  Seattle requires much more training and education than NYC.  Lee county likes to see its Paramedics get their A.S. degree at the local college.
> 
> Again, if you do not really have a desire to learn more and are entering this with the attitude you have displayed on the forums, let someone who does want to learn take that seat.
> 
> In my eyes I would like to see EMS become a profession.  It is the only one besides OR tech, phlebotimist and MA that doesn't have at least a minimum of a two year degree.  Techs were great in the 1960s but not with today's medical advancements.  The fact that you can run through a recipe and maybe start an IV should no longer be good enough.



Your lack of confidence in NYC EMS is merely an opinion. Sure, the system is fragmented with many hospitals and two privates providing units along with the FDNY, but when I refer to the abilites and knowledge of NYC medics, it's from my personal observation. I was there and you weren't. I'm referring in particular to the hospital based medics from NSLIJ and NYC Presbyterian mostly. NSLIJ has a notoriously tough entrance exam, and an internship process spanning several months, to ensure competency. Many have been let go during the internship. I've compared these medics to those I've run with in VA and SC, and I've noticed a marked inferiority from the SC medics, and a mixed bag in VA. So, I'm comparing my NY observations to those in other states, all real life examples. 

Since there are so many different agencies providing EMS in NYC, the standing orders are somewhat conservative. Deviation from the cookbook, to follow evidence based medicine requires OLMC contact. This is so the physician can speak with the medic on a case by case basis to see if they have a sufficient knowledge base to be granted lattitude in Tx. Otherwise, it's "just txp to the hosp".

Anyway, instead of constantly pointing out tech cert medics' perceived inferiorities ad nauseum, persuade them instead of the career development benefit, expanded knowledge base, and relative ease of upgrading their tech cert to a degree. You'll get much better results that way rather than alienating some. Every degree medic is one step closer to the goal, right? For what it's worth, I've been telling medics at my FD, my IFT side job, and my former co-workers at NSLIJ about the career benefits and ease in completing the degree. Do the same instead of bashing medics for going the tech route. 

The way I see it, the overwhelming majority of aspiring medics will go the tech route if it's a viable option. I, like others, didn't even know that there was a difference from a tech program to a degree program, other than a few electives and another year of time commitment. It was naive, sure, but I'm positive that many are just as ignorant to the differences as I was. As such, since the ratio of tech medics to degree medics will likely increase in favor of tech medics for the forseeable future, greater overall numbers of degree medics will be realized by taking existing medics and legitimizing their education by completing the EMS AAS. I don't see a significant movement to degrees in the near future otherwise, based on the type of people that EMS currently attracts. Bashing newbies on internet forums will only alienate them. They'll likely just stop participating on the forums in short fashion, and instead seek advice from their peers, who are likely to be tech grads statistically speaking. Would you rather bash the up and comers, or convert the masses?


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## ExpatMedic0 (Dec 13, 2009)

It is required in my state to have atleast an AAS for all Paramedics to be Oregon Paramedics. I have what is called a provisional medic cert which mean I Have to finnish my degree in 2 years or they yank my cert. 

In terms of Seattle and medic 1... yeah medic 1 guys are good paramedics but they dont do most of the transports or patient care in King County (Seattle) AMR does with EMT-B's. There are far more Paramedics I would think in NYC since Seattle is predominantly a BLS system.  

Regarding patient care and degrees, we all are tested and certified as Paramedics by the same body (in your state) or the NREMT for competency. Ive met plenty of medics with certs that out preform Bachelor degree's medics.

All thats in most AAS (community college) programs that I have seen is mainly general education and nothing related to patient care or pre-hospital care directly. Although I do think it will help paramedics with pay raises and how we are seen professionally.


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## VentMedic (Dec 13, 2009)

schulz said:


> It is required in my state to have atleast an AAS for all Paramedics to be Oregon Paramedics. I have what is called a provisional medic cert which mean I Have to finnish my degree in 2 years or they yank my cert.
> 
> In terms of Seattle and medic 1... yeah medic 1 guys are good paramedics but they dont do most of the transports or patient care in King County (Seattle) AMR does with EMT-B's. There are far more Paramedics I would think in NYC since Seattle is predominantly a BLS system.
> 
> ...


 
What a sad statement for you to bash the state of Oregon after what they have tried to do to improve professionalism in EMS. 

Are you saying college level A&P and pharmacology is useless? 

Move out of Oregon to some place like California or even TX where 624 hours of training is all that is required. Try working with some of the 3 month wonders to see what these programs have attracted to EMS. 

There will be some who aren't outstanding regardless of education but I would much rather have a room full of Paramedics who put forth the effort to be a good Paramedic rather than a bunch of bubba dudes who saw a cool TV show and went to a PDQ medic mill with no prerequisites. The only requirement was to be breathing. If some of these schools could get the dead to sign the loan papers even that wouldn't be necessary. 

There reason the NREMT still tests at the same level is that EMS is still held to the standard of the lowest denominator. Congratulations that you passed a test based on a 10th grade text book. 

You should be proud that you passed courses that required some college level reading skills even if a few were electives. These courses might even improve your writing and spelling capabilities which is essential on the PCRs.


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## triemal04 (Dec 13, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> What a sad statement for you to bash the state of Oregon after what they have tried to do to improve professionalism in EMS.
> 
> Are you saying college level A&P and pharmacology is useless?


What a sad statement for you to make about something which you are uninformed and unqualified to speak about (Oregon's Paramedic degree and Oregon EMS in general).  And believe me, there are plenty of unprofessional yet professionally employed paramedics in Oregon, degree and all.  Add in the bs the state is pulling now with the system...yeah...hush up until you are better informed.

Oregon does not require a pharmacology course to be certified as a paramedic.  Out of the 93 credits required (100+ when you figure in prereqs for some of the classes) the majority do have some bearing on EMS or medical care, but not all.  There's 19 I'd say that fall into the category of being "filler" for the degree, though still good to have.  I don't really fully disagree with the sentiments that you've put forth, but for christs sake, be sure you know what you are talking about; despite all it's faults, Oregon DHS has made it very easy to access info on the paramedic requirements.
http://egov.oregon.gov/DHS/ph/ems/certific/educate.shtml#paramedic

schulz-  I thought to gain a provo cert you had to have your current Oregon medical director vouch for you; in essence be hired on somewhere.  Is that not the case for you, or are you working in Oregon?


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## VentMedic (Dec 13, 2009)

46Young said:


> Bashing newbies on internet forums will only alienate them.


 
YOU are not a newbie. You have stated on the forums that you are almost 35 y/o. If you had any interest in medicine with your "vast" experience you probably wouldn't be so confused now. Make some decisions or just stay on the engine and stop all the education bashing. To tell the newbies that education is of not important and a union card is all they need will just do them an injustice when EMS does move on to become a profession. Also, not everyone wants to be a FF. Some Paramedics do want to be medical professionals and take the patient care aspect of the job seriously. 



> Anyway, instead of constantly pointing out tech cert medics' perceived inferiorities ad nauseum, persuade them instead of the career development benefit, expanded knowledge base, and relative ease of upgrading their tech cert to a degree.


 
This was my post from the other forum on 12/02/09.  Any of the information sound familiar?



> With so many decent colleges in VA with reasonable tuition, especially at the community college level, why would you want to go with a questionable mail order program? If you are going to do online, just about every college offers that method of teaching for some classes. Using one locally can give you greater access to their resources including the labs. You can probably transfer your Paramedic cert much easier within state to a good A.A.S program. That may leave you only about 24 credits to finish that degree. I still don't see how you 46young, who have preached money matters, could get suckered into such quick fix degrees to suck your money out of your bank accounts with numerous extra fees and out of state tuition as well as classes that may not even pertain to your own state's requirements. Instead of look for some elaborate scheme, just go to your local community college. It is only a cert to Associates degree. They can also do personal counseling for the correct classes for your goals and get you financial aid advice if you need it. At this point I don't think you have a clue what you want to do so it is best you get advice that can be applied broadly. Also, if you choose an out of state program, those classes may have difficulty coming into your state especially if they are from a private school. And remember, some science and math classes have a time limit for transfer which is 5 or 7 years depending on the state.
> 
> Also, if you want to obtain another health degree in the future, you need to take real college level A&P and pharmacology. Trying to CLEP out of these classes based on the overview sections of these courses offered in a Paramedic cert program is not a good idea. Picking up a book entitled CLEPPING Pharmacology for Dummies is also not a good idea as the title will give you some clue as to why. If you do not have a thorough understanding of these subjects, while you might pass the course, you may just skim by which does the patients who will be in your care a disservice. Inhospital and critical care (including CCT) pharmacology requires an indepth understanding and not just a gloss over. Med-surg pharmacology alone can be very expansive with numerous meds and the provider must understand the meds well enough to teach as well as just do the skill of setting the med at bedside after matching the names of the medications from the orders.


 
And this was your reply:



> 46Young, on 03 December 2009 - 08:20 AM, said:
> Check my math if you like. Someone with a tech cert could save 10 grand annually for 10 consecutive years, put it in a balanced ETF (or retail fund) gaining 7-8% on average, and then just leave it there for the remaining 30 years of their career. They'll have over 2 million at retirement. Imagine if they continue to contribute into deferred comp. Or if their contributions were to increase with salary increases. The MD, who doesn't really start earning until they're in their 30's should be able to do the same thing, but it will take a much larger contribution to accomplish that. College is important, but it's not the only path to prosperity. All I was saying is that one should have opportunity cost in mind when they choose their course of action.


 
http://www.emtcity.com/index.php/topic/17040-paramedic-cert-to-paramedic-degree/page__st__10

I find it hard to take someone serious who tries so hard to talk people out of a lifetime investment of just two or four years of education because it might take away a year or two of earning potential. You just want to argue for the sake of getting others to agree that a tech cert is all the Paramedic should ever be. And then you did state this:


> I don't see a significant movement to degrees in the near future otherwise, based on the type of people that EMS currently attracts.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Dec 13, 2009)

A&P 1 is a prerequisite for the paramedic program, or at least it was for me. I am sure the level of education and training vary greatly from state to state. Making all Paramedics take a couple English classes is not going to improve patient care.

If your unhappy with Paramedics in some areas I think you need to attack the paramedic programs themselves, before trying to tackle this whole degree thing. If these patch mills are pumping out crappy medics and they are some how passing the NREMT, DOT curriculum needs to be changed, programs need to be longer, and NREMT needs to raise the bench mark. Taking the same crappy incompetent Paramedic and training him at the jr college level in English comp1 and basic Algebra is not the answer. 

I support Paramedics getting at least an associates, and I would like to see it as mandatory one day in the U.S. But thats not the complete answer. Also, the way Oregon did it is terrible and the degree requirements are way to much compared to most other states AAS degrees.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Dec 13, 2009)

triemal04 said:


> http://egov.oregon.gov/DHS/ph/ems/certific/educate.shtml#paramedic
> 
> schulz-  I thought to gain a provo cert you had to have your current Oregon medical director vouch for you; in essence be hired on somewhere.  Is that not the case for you, or are you working in Oregon?



I work 1 day a week doing event stand by in Portland. I still get unemployment, I make so little they do not even take it out of my check normally! Yes you do need a letter from your medical director and an agency and $250ish dollars! (with the reciprocity)


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## VentMedic (Dec 13, 2009)

triemal04 said:


> What a sad statement for you to make about something which you are uninformed and unqualified to speak about (Oregon's Paramedic degree and Oregon EMS in general). And believe me, there are plenty of unprofessional yet professionally employed paramedics in Oregon, degree and all. Add in the bs the state is pulling now with the system...yeah...hush up until you are better informed.
> 
> Oregon does not require a pharmacology course to be certified as a paramedic. Out of the 93 credits required (100+ when you figure in prereqs for some of the classes) the majority do have some bearing on EMS or medical care, but not all. There's 19 I'd say that fall into the category of being "filler" for the degree, though still good to have. I don't really fully disagree with the sentiments that you've put forth, but for christs sake, be sure you know what you are talking about; despite all it's faults, Oregon DHS has made it very easy to access info on the paramedic requirements.
> http://egov.oregon.gov/DHS/ph/ems/certific/educate.shtml#paramedic
> ...


 
And now another education basher chimes....  

So sad if OR and the degree programs have now had to lower their standards to help out those who whine about all those hard classes.  Maybe if they didn't lower their degree requirements some of the "unprofessional" Paramedics could get flushed out of the system.

Have you noticed that the old timers on this forum such as Rid and I had our EMS degrees from over 30 years ago?   Do you know how many degree programs there actually are in this country?

It is also very sad that you do not understand the purpose of a college education is to make one a well rounded professional who can read, write and communicate at a higher level.  So yes, some of those non-medical electives are necessary. 

Anybody have any doubts now why EMS is still limping along with the same training as in 1969?


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## VentMedic (Dec 13, 2009)

schulz said:


> A&P 1 is a prerequisite for the paramedic program, or at least it was for me. I am sure the level of education and training vary greatly from state to state. Making all Paramedics take a couple English classes is not going to improve patient care.
> 
> If your unhappy with Paramedics in some areas I think you need to attack the paramedic programs themselves, before trying to tackle this whole degree thing. If these patch mills are pumping out crappy medics and they are some how passing the *NREMT, DOT curriculum needs to be changed*, programs need to be longer, and* NREMT needs to raise the bench mark.* Taking the same crappy incompetent Paramedic and training him at the jr college level in English comp1 and *basic Algebra is not the answer. *
> 
> I support Paramedics getting at least an associates, and I would like to see it as mandatory one day in the U.S. But thats not the complete answer. Also, the way Oregon did it is terrible and the degree requirements are way to much compared to most other states AAS degrees.


 
You don't think reading, writing and math are important?  Please stay away from the medications.    Calculating medications IS basic Algebra.

In case you haven't heard, the NREMT is attacking the medic mills by requiring them to become accredited.    And here's some really big new for you, the NREMT is changing the levels.  Stay current with EMS and read the bulletins and journals.

Here's a thread with some links for you to catch up on the world of EMS and the changes that are coming.  Be sure to read the link to the NREMT newsletter at the top.

http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=15726

Some of us old timers have been doing more than just taking the easy way out and ignoring the issues out there.


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## triemal04 (Dec 13, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> And now another education basher chimes....
> 
> So sad if OR and the degree programs have now had to lower their standards to help out those who whine about all those hard classes.  Maybe if they didn't lower their degree requirements some of the "unprofessional" Paramedics could get flushed out of the system.
> 
> ...


venty, if you can't keep up with the class, don't bother commenting, m'kay?  After reading any of my posts anti-education is about the last thing I am, and your saying so is just...well...dumb.  Surprise surprise there...

Actually, the standards for the degree have not changed at all; they are the same as they were 10 years ago when it was implemented; remember, you are not qualified to discuss this specific topic, and it shows.  But, unfortunately, even jackballs (though probably less than elsewhere, I have no doubt about that) can gain a degree; just look at many colleges nationwide.

There are lot's of degree programs nationally; hopefully one day (soon) a 3-yr associates will be the minimum required to work as a paramedic.  But talking about what happened 30yrs ago and what's happening now is rather disingenuous; it's great that at one point the profession was moving forward, and still is to a certain extent (albeit slowly) but the current discussion is on CURRENT practices, not "the good old days."

Again, keep up with the class, you'll notice that I mentioned I actually agree with most of your sentiments, just still want you to be ACCURATE when you discuss this topic.  Probably to much to ask, I know...  And again, you'll notice that, though they may be "filler" for a degree, I've already said those classes are still a good thing to have.  Man...can you actually reply to what has been said and not what you WANT to have been said?

Schulz-  Out of curiosity, what is it about Oregon's degree you don't like?


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## VentMedic (Dec 13, 2009)

triemal04 said:


> venty, if you can't keep up with the class, don't bother commenting, m'kay? After reading any of my posts anti-education is about the last thing I am, and your saying so is just...well...dumb. Surprise surprise there...
> 
> Actually, the standards for the degree have not changed at all; they are the same as they were 10 years ago when it was implemented; remember, you are not qualified to discuss this specific topic, and it shows. But, unfortunately, even jackballs (though probably less than elsewhere, I have no doubt about that) can gain a degree; just look at many colleges nationwide.


 
You were still in elementary school 10 years ago. 

You've also changed your opinions to go against whatever I am for.  Since I have been consistently pro-education, you have argued against it just so you wouldn't have to agree.  Now doesn't that sound a little like elementary school still for you?


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## ExpatMedic0 (Dec 13, 2009)

So you think taking the medic mill guy, giving him Algebra (which he all ready has to know to be certified according to you since its required for calculating medication)
Is the answer? 

Are you such a smart *** with your bedside manner or does that just come with old age?


VentMedic said:


> You don't think reading, writing and math are important?  Please stay away from the medications.    Calculating medications IS basic Algebra.
> 
> In case you haven't heard, the NREMT is attacking the medic mills by requiring them to become accredited.    And here's some really big new for you, the NREMT is changing the levels.  Stay current with EMS and read the bulletins and journals.
> 
> ...


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## VentMedic (Dec 13, 2009)

schulz said:


> So you think taking the medic mill guy, giving him Algebra (which he all ready has to know to be certified according to you since its required for calculating medication)
> Is the answer?


 

You are assuming too much. The problem is some of those from the medic mills can barely add 2 + 2 to come up with 4. They are taught to pass a test. And heaven forbid if they are asked to take a medicated drip on an IFT transport. If the pump starts beeping they just shut it off rather than learn how to deal with it. 

Here's another news flash for you. In some places EVERY FF is required to become a Paramedic before hire or within a year of hire.  This is regardless of any medical interest or lack of.   After the Fire Academy that may leave them all of 6 months and many medic mills do cater to the FDs.  Thus, if someone who has absolutely NO interest in being a Paramedic can pass a medic mill  program and still pass a test based on a 10th grade textbook.  Now isn't that something for EMS to be proud of?



schulz said:


> Are you such a smart *** with your bedside manner or does that just come with old age?


 
Pull up your big girl panties and quit whining about your education.

You are not my patient and this is not the bedside. I guess educated people and experience mean little to you. You don't have to live in OR if you don't want to go to college. Maybe 46Young or triemal04 can get you into one of their tech schools. 

Did you even bother to look at the links to see what I'm being such a smartarse about? *It is all there in black and white for you to read about the changes coming to the NREMT and EMS. *


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## rhan101277 (Dec 13, 2009)

My instructor has a B.S. degree and its also a CCEMT-P.  He has been a paramedic in some sort of capacity for 20 years.  He is trying to get the education laws changed around here, there is a definite difference in his class.  There are also adjunct instructors who teach and have lots of experience.  We had to do a term paper on professionalism in EMS and what it means.  Maybe they need to add Chemistry I and II into the curriculum.

I also think volunteers hurt the profession.  Nothing against it, but you don't see RN's going to hospitals to volunteer their time to do patient care.  As soon as everyone has the same curriculum nationally with the same pre-reqs and classes then maybe it gets better.


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## Scott33 (Dec 13, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> The problem is some of those from the medic mills can barely add 2 + 2 to come up with 4. They are taught to pass a test.



Perhaps. 

But how much of the education at nursing school do you think is merely geared towards passing the NCLEX? I would reckon about half. I was once told by one of my Professors, that you don't really start to become an RN until about 3 years post boards. Something which I don't entirely disagree with it. 

I am ALL for more education in EMS, ideally mandatory at the BSc level. But like nursing and all those other allied professions, it should be balanced with hands on exposure in the field. 

In other words, one could equally argue that a paramedic who holds an EMS-realted degree, but who only handles about 50 calls a year in a medical control-heavy system, should need to have additional training (in this case exposure) to be allowed to have continued certification or licensure. 

If only the problems in EMS were as simple as mandating degree-level education...


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## VentMedic (Dec 14, 2009)

Scott33 said:


> I am ALL for more education in EMS, ideally mandatory at the BSc level. But like nursing and all those other allied professions, it should be balanced with hands on exposure in the field.
> 
> In other words, one could equally argue that a paramedic who holds an EMS-realted degree, but who only handles about 50 calls a year in a medical control-heavy system, should need to have additional training (in this case exposure) to be allowed to have continued certification or licensure.
> 
> If only the problems in EMS were as simple as mandating degree-level education...


 
If the Paramedic only has 40 ALS patient contacts during clinicals and with some states allowing for a broad interpretation of "ALS" contacts, that could be just about anything.  Also, for some situations with the FDs and the medic mills, Florida has to keep reminding them that ALS engine sleepovers do not count for what is too few hours now in the programs for clinicals.   It has to be an ambulance that transports.    If these new Paramedics go to work on an ALS engine or an area with a very low call volume, they are not going to be very effective.   We end up with more Washington DCs, Collier Counties and Los Angeles. 

Other professions, nursing and RT, get well over 1000 hours of clinicals in their 2 year programs.  This is also with considerable patient contact.  They also know that the initial education is just the beginning and from there they must get more experience and education.    They also have better mentoring systems in place for their new grads.


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## 46Young (Dec 14, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> YOU are not a newbie. You have stated on the forums that you are almost 35 y/o. If you had any interest in medicine with your "vast" experience you probably wouldn't be so confused now. Make some decisions or just stay on the engine and stop all the education bashing. To tell the newbies that education is of not important and a union card is all they need will just do them an injustice when EMS does move on to become a profession. Also, not everyone wants to be a FF. Some Paramedics do want to be medical professionals and take the patient care aspect of the job seriously.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I work on the txp unit at my FD quite often. I don't find 911 EMS particularly challenging. Satisfying and fun, yes, but not all that challenging. Maybe it's because my paramedic program prepared me well for the field. Maybe it's because my clinicals were in busy city hospitals with competent staff. Maybe it's because my ALS ambulance clinicals were on busy ALS units, who are dispatched only ALS calls. High priority call types only, not stubbed toes, tflu, minor injuries, EDP's, etc. Only ALS. Those BLS calls are important, sure, but the ALS intern should be focusing in on call types that need ALS care. Maybe it's because I immediately began FT work + copious OT in that same system, continuing the same steep learning curve due to encountering a high volume of high acuity pts. Even only one year's experience in that type of system in NY/NJ can equal 3,5, or even 10 years in slower systems, where the medic runs everything from A-Z and sees a disproportinally low volume of sick pts, who need more than the usual V.O.M.I.T. Tx. 

NYC (tech cert) medic with 5 years experience, seeing maybe 25 or more pt's per 40 hour workweek, with an ever rapidly increasing pt contact reference, following up afterward with the Attending after  challenging calls. 

EMS AAS or BA medic with the same 5 years, who sees less pts overall, where maybe one in 10 (if they're lucky) need more than the V.O.M.I.T routine.

This is why NYC 911 experience is generally well received across the country when seeking employment. No one that's left NY, to my knowledge, has had a difficult time transitioning to other systems, nor have they done poorly.

Anyway, I'll always recommend to the 20 y/o living at home to get the 2 year or 4 year degree. Time is on their side, and they're largely insulated from any real expenses. I'l always recommend to the 27 y/o single mother living paycheck to paycheck to take the past of least resistance, and seek a degree when they're better compensated and able to afford it (both tuition and lost opportunities for OT/side work while attending class). I'd also recommend the path of least resistance to the recently unemployed head of the household facing expenses from a motrtgage and such. School will always be there. If I have a family to support, do I want to go to school for 2-3 years making $15/hr, or do I want to take out a year, work for $25/hr, and THEN complete a degree?

A degree (or two or three) ought to be the ultimate goal, but whether it's best to do it sooner rather than later is entirely dependant on each individual's circumstances. This isn't fantasy world. People have very real socioeconomic issues and would benefit greatly by a salary boost and opportunity for side work NOW.

If the medical arts would allow students to do 1-3 classes at a time rather than mandate a full load, perhaps pursuing a degree would be more attractive to many who otherwise don't have the time or means. Like I've said before, degrees in the medical arts are tailored to the young individual who lives at home and has no issues preventing them from going to school FT. Others don't have that luxury.We have families, bills to pay, and often need to work OT and per diem work, either to pay the bills or to save for a house, 529's, etc. 

It's nice to say that when there's a will there's a way, that if you really want it you'll work it out, but my children will only be young once. I'm not ok with depriving my family of time with me, nor am I ok with not seeing my children grow up since I'm never home, going to school FT (FT, or nothing at all, if you don't like it, don't enroll). How is the single parent supposed to go to school FT? Who's watching the kids? How is the parent supposed to afford day care?

I got my tech cert, made a bundle of cash the first two years, then joined the fire service where I'm making as much if not more than those with 4-6 year degrees. Now I'm going back to school, while I'm already financially established. If the standards get raised, I'll be ok. I always have a plan "B". 


I'm sorry for those that disagree with my plan, not having to give up 4-6 years of my life for FT school to command the salary that I do. I chose the best options available to me. Explain to me how I've made poor decisions given where I'm at now, both financially and regarding my family. I would have been a fool to do anything else in retrospect. I know plenty of people with 4 and 6 year degrees working in Starbucks, Borders, TGIF and such. I have a cousin with an MBA that can't find work. I have another cousin that recently graduated as a teacher that can't find work. How many college grads are out of work at the moment, victims of this economic downturn? You're young, get the degree first, since you can live at home if you can't find work. Time is on your side. If you're older, and have financial obligations, get the job with the higher salary/benefits/retirement as quickly as possible, then worry about degrees later. Time is not on your side. I have yet another cousin making 33/hr working at a hosp. based EMS agency, and also teaches at a medic program, making 30/hr there. Her husband is a FDNY EMS Capt, and also teaches, making the same 30/hr. They both have tech certs an a wealth of NYC 911 experience. 

Unlike other professions, if the money's not there, there probably won't be a significant degree movement, when that (degree) time investment can pay off much better in other professions.


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## 46Young (Dec 14, 2009)

Vent, just because my viewpoints differ greatly from yours doesn't make me a "troll". You repeat the virtues of education, but oft neglect any considerations to finance and family dynamics. One needs to see the entire picture when making their decisions, not only one side of the coin. We don't live in a vacuum, this isn't fantasy world. 

I'd naturally expect you to be hostile to any discussion of financial or family issues, since the alternatives for these individuals don't fall in line with the degree agenda. That's why I said it was amusing that my introduction to financial considerations caused argument. It wasn't originally why I posted in that direction, but you can only hear so much about degrees and how tech grads are (presumably by default) incompetent. I've not heard any strong arguments against my viewpoints regarding finance when considering a degree program vs a tech program, intended for those who are either working professionals or the recently unemployed. We're talking about employment here, after all. Far be it from me to discuss finance in the context of employment and career tracks. It would detract from the "degree no matter what your situation is" agenda, and we can't have that.


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## VentMedic (Dec 14, 2009)

46Young said:


> I've not heard any strong arguments against my viewpoints regarding finance when considering a degree program vs a tech program, intended for those who are either working professionals or the recently unemployed. We're talking about employment here, after all. Far be it from me to discuss finance in the context of employment and career tracks. It would detract from the "degree no matter what your situation is" agenda, and we can't have that.


 
You have heard arguments for education from myself and many others on the different forums. You just don't want to think of the Paramedic as becoming a health care PROFESSIONAL for your own reasons. The Paramedic should join the ranks of becoming a true health care profession. 

No other health care profession has tolerated the excuses you have come up with. They saw the need was there as medicine was evolving. They saw the "tech" was no longer good enough for their patients. 

All these financial excuses you have come up with are crap when it comes to investing in one's future. Please do not try to discourage people from getting their education because you think a union card is all they need. 

You honestly have no clue about college education. You still have no clue about how professions advance even though it has been explained to you by myself and many others on the different forums. Not once did the FD stop me from continuing my education. I also know many of those on this forum who are single mothers or fathers and have worked FT while going to school to get a better education and a solid future for their family. They don't sit around calculating the numbers in their checkbook and whining. They get out and follow through with what needs to be done. Most also have faith in EMS that it will someday evolve into a true health care profession that is recognized as such by the legislative bodies that control reimbursement for professional status.


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## Alimae03 (Dec 14, 2009)

Thank you for that on education and on the family point of view. I am glad to hear you guys stop fighting over ones point of view. I do agree that it has to be the right time and that we have to be in the right state inorder to obtain a degree.


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## VentMedic (Dec 14, 2009)

Alimae03 said:


> Thank you for that on education and on the family point of view. I am glad to hear you guys stop fighting over ones point of view. I do agree that it has to be the right time and that we have to be in the right state inorder to obtain a degree.


 
Then EMS is the *job* for you.  You couldn't work in any other medical profession with those excuses.  You either get a degree or you find another job which is probably why some are in EMS.


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## reaper (Dec 14, 2009)

If you are in this job for finance, then you picked the wrong job. The only people that make it in this profession are the people that are doing it for the love of the job and the Pt's. They are the ones that gain from your education.

As far as saying that NYC medics, or any big city medics, are better then a rural medic is a huge joke. They may be good at what they do, for the 20 minutes they are with a pt. Rural medics are with Pt's for upwards of two hours or more. Those are the medics that have the experience.

I have worked large cities and very rural areas. I would choose rural, for a new medic. That is where you learn how to care for a pt.

A lot of flight services will pick rural medics or big city medics, in a minute. They know where the experience is coming from.

It is nice to take care of your family, but not at the expense of education. Get the education now. Worry about the future later!


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## Melclin (Dec 14, 2009)

I mentioned to Vent once that one of the key differences between Australian and American EMS is, and pretty much always has been, the emphasis on an extensive education for all prehospital providers with relatively short extensions for those who specialize in certain skills (ALS). 

The basic education/training requirements for everyone in EMS has been ~2 years (various combinations of formal education and on the job training) ever since the seventies. The ALS extension education begun with Ambulance officers going off to the coronary care nursing courses. They could keep up, and regularly exceed the RNs, because they already had two years of education/training.

JPINFV said in another forum that it was faulty logic to call all prehospital providers paramedics regardless of level in the same way as Drs are all called Dr regardless of specialty, because all doctors have the same basic education foundation and that wasn't true of paramedics/EMTs etc. It is here. Always has been. 

I think its pretty sad that you guys over there talk about a two year "degree" like its a step up. And that's not even for the basic provider, its for your "ALS", honestly, its boggles the mind. When most of the civilized word is moving to a post-bachelors degree, post graduate qualification or physician based ALS, many Americans still seem to think that the Associates Degree, or what we would call a Diploma, is an excessive level of education. 

Not to mention the idea that its okay for a poorly cross trained, barely interested FF (who sometimes, I was shocked to learn, view moving from being a paramedic to a ladder operator as a PROMOTION) to be dealing with clinical situations, drugs and procedures that require the knowledge, education and expertise of masters degree level health care professionals, if not a physician.


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## rhan101277 (Dec 14, 2009)

I am going to school because I really enjoy the work.  I also know that around here, where I live, switching jobs will not cause me financial headache.  Since working at  24 on/48 off pays around $1,600 every two weeks here take home pay, that is enough for me to live comfortably.  Now in places like Atlanta, Las Vegas and any California city, living on that wage would probably be ridiculous.

Nothing beats getting up in the morning and looking forward to going to work and not dreading it.  Look at how much of our lives are spent working.


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## triemal04 (Dec 14, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> You were still in elementary school 10 years ago.
> 
> You've also changed your opinions to go against whatever I am for.  Since I have been consistently pro-education, you have argued against it just so you wouldn't have to agree.  Now doesn't that sound a little like elementary school still for you?


I have?  Really?  Would you like to point out where?  I mean, you're all in favor of evidence based practices right, and having proof for why you do something, right?  So shouldn't you be able to show exactly where I've done that?  Or are you just once again proving that your credibility is lacking and all you can do when proven wrong is insult people?  Since I've actually said that I agree with you (in this thread no less) that would seem to be the case here wouldn't it?  And for the record I was in highschool 10 years ago...honestly, when all you can do is insult someone instead of actually refuting what is said...says a lot about you.


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## triemal04 (Dec 14, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Did you even bother to look at the links to see what I'm being such a smartarse about? *It is all there in black and white for you to read about the changes coming to the NREMT and EMS. *


You know...for someone who professes to be as smart as you do, you come up with some silly comments sometimes, with this being one.

While the changes and increases to the EMS curriculum and requirement for accreditation are absolutely great things and a step in the right direction, (let me repeat that so you get it:  the changes are GREAT AND A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION) they are not the cure-all that you seem to believe they will be.  There is not, and likely won't be, any mandatory requirement to implement these standards; if a state decides that they don't care about their personnel's NREMT certification, they can continue to do whatever they want.  If they decide they like having 4 different levels of EMT they can continue to do that.  None of the changes and mandatory (more's the pity (that means it's bad)) unless a state cares about the NREMT.

Hopefully at some point it will become mandatory to implement these changes and further increases in the educational level, but right now, while it's a good thing, commenting on it the way you do isn't accurate.

Oh...and isn't Florida a state that doesn't require NREMT status?  Guess all those medic-mills down there will be sticking around for awhile won't they?  Hmmm...bet that makes you even more bitter.


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## daedalus (Dec 14, 2009)

Melclin said:


> I mentioned to Vent once that one of the key differences between Australian and American EMS is, and pretty much always has been, the emphasis on an extensive education for all prehospital providers with relatively short extensions for those who specialize in certain skills (ALS).
> 
> The basic education/training requirements for everyone in EMS has been ~2 years (various combinations of formal education and on the job training) ever since the seventies. The ALS extension education begun with Ambulance officers going off to the coronary care nursing courses. They could keep up, and regularly exceed the RNs, because they already had two years of education/training.
> 
> ...



Well said!!


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## daedalus (Dec 14, 2009)

triemal04 said:


> You know...for someone who professes to be as smart as you do, you come up with some silly comments sometimes, with this being one.
> 
> While the changes and increases to the EMS curriculum and requirement for accreditation are absolutely great things and a step in the right direction, (let me repeat that so you get it:  the changes are GREAT AND A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION) they are not the cure-all that you seem to believe they will be.  There is not, and likely won't be, any mandatory requirement to implement these standards; if a state decides that they don't care about their personnel's NREMT certification, they can continue to do whatever they want.  If they decide they like having 4 different levels of EMT they can continue to do that.  None of the changes and mandatory (more's the pity (that means it's bad)) unless a state cares about the NREMT.
> 
> ...


I think that the changes being made, while in the right direction, are entirely pathetic baby steps, and very late to arrive. I think that ventmedic doubts the upcoming changes are a cure all, and I think that she likely believes the same as me.


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## triemal04 (Dec 14, 2009)

daedalus said:


> I think that the changes being made, while in the right direction, are entirely pathetic baby steps, and very late to arrive. I think that ventmedic doubts the upcoming changes are a cure all, and I think that she likely believes the same as me.


I hope that's not what she thinks, but that is the way it's been coming across recently.  

I don't know if I go so far to call it pathetic baby steps; bringing everyone (if the standards are followed that is) to the same level and requiring accreditation is good.  If nothing else it'll great a base that will make it easier to increase the standards later on.  But there is still a hell of a long way to go.


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## JPINFV (Dec 14, 2009)

46Young said:


> I'd naturally expect you to be hostile to any discussion of financial or family issues, since the alternatives for these individuals don't fall in line with the degree agenda. That's why I said it was amusing that my introduction to financial considerations caused argument. It wasn't originally why I posted in that direction, but you can only hear so much about degrees and how tech grads are (presumably by default) incompetent. I've not heard any strong arguments against my viewpoints regarding finance when considering a degree program vs a tech program, intended for those who are either working professionals or the recently unemployed. We're talking about employment here, after all. Far be it from me to discuss finance in the context of employment and career tracks. It would detract from the "degree no matter what your situation is" agenda, and we can't have that.



Where's the tech program for the recently unemployed or people with families so that they can obtain unrestricted licenses to practice medicine? Heck, one major difference between prehospital care and medicine is that there really is a lack of physicians (especially primary care physicians) unlike paramedics. A lot of my classmates are married with children, yet are still putting in an insane amount of time to get their education instead of looking for an easy way to obtain said license. Why doesn't the school offer them flexible hours different from everyone else?


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## Melclin (Dec 14, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> Where's the tech program for the recently unemployed or people with families so that they can obtain unrestricted licenses to practice medicine? Heck, one major difference between prehospital care and medicine is that there really is a lack of physicians (especially primary care physicians) unlike paramedics. A lot of my classmates are married with children, yet are still putting in an insane amount of time to get their education instead of looking for an easy way to obtain said license. Why doesn't the school offer them flexible hours different from everyone else?



I was just about to say: "Well I'll just trot off to the local tech school and get my Doctors for Dummies cert. I'm not really in the right position at the moment to get my MD, but I'll just practice medicine anyway, and I'll finish my degree down the track sometime when it suits me, and I can scrape together the credits, from umpteen dozen crappy so called universities". But I won't seeing as you beat me to it, albeit more seriously.


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## JPINFV (Dec 14, 2009)

Oh, here's a fire example. On The Academy: OCFA, a number of the recruits have families. Why doesn't OCFA offer the recruits with families additional time off and an easier schedule?


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## triemal04 (Dec 14, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> Oh, here's a fire example. On The Academy: OCFA, a number of the recruits have families. Why doesn't OCFA offer the recruits with families additional time off and an easier schedule?


Because that would be giving someone time off and an easier schedule from their job.  I see where you were going with this, but it's only a semi-accurate comparison.  Yes, they are still learning how to do their job, same as someone who's still in school, but they are also being paid/have accessed their benefits while doing so.  Close, but not quite.

And don't take this to mean that I'm on one side or another of this argument.  A degree should be mandatory.  Hopefully it will be one day. Period.  When that happens if it takes someone longer to attain it due to the circumstances of their life, that's unfortunate, but it's still possible to accomplish, just on a longer timeline.  Currently I'd rather that someone went for the degree right off the bat.  If they don't and soon enough realize that they should have one and start working on accomplishing that...they are doing what they need to, so it's a start.


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## emstchr (Dec 14, 2009)

Unfortunately medic mills (not all private/tech schools are bad, but a few hurt the reputations of the rest) and a lack of a national standard for training and testing will be with us for some time...in Florida and elswhere...as long as it is profitable and our profession continues to speak with a fractured voice.  As long as the agendas of public, private, fire, non-fire, volunteer and paid providers point in different directions, progress will be slow and painful.


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## 46Young (Dec 14, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> You have heard arguments for education from myself and many others on the different forums. You just don't want to think of the Paramedic as becoming a health care PROFESSIONAL for your own reasons. The Paramedic should join the ranks of becoming a true health care profession.
> 
> No other health care profession has tolerated the excuses you have come up with. They saw the need was there as medicine was evolving. They saw the "tech" was no longer good enough for their patients.
> 
> ...



EMS missed the opportunity to advance like other healthcare professions. It's likely that those analyzing EMS as a career path won't be willing to risk investing in a 2-4 year degree for a small chance, only a small chance of things improving in the future. As it is now, the pay, benefits, conditions and retirement aren't worthy of someone with a 2-4 year degree save for a handful of places. 

I wish I had an answer as to how those working in EMS could be effectively organized to push for a better deal. The profession is greatly transient and fragmented as it is. It's difficult to talk someone into getting a degree just to enter a profession where it's the norm to be paid little, and work under poor conditions. I know that other professions became educated and then lobbied for a better deal. I don't see EMS organizing to any great degree given the current conditions, not without prior organization (union, perhaps) that will raise pay/benefits to a minimum standard that would attract more to stay in it for a career, rather than just a stepping stone. Anyone with any sense will balk at what's available in EMS as a career and direct their energy towards a degree in other healthcare fields, which are more financially rewarding.

You can't bank on "faith". It's too risky.

So you say that there are single parents going to school FT while working FT? That may work if they're already paid well in their current job, and also have family willing to care for their children in their absence. I'm referring to school age children or younger, not teenagers who don't require child care and txp to/from school. If a single parent is working FT and going to school FT for several years, they'll spend a small fortune in child care expenses as well as tuition. So now they deferred maybe two years of earning while paying out a fortune in child care and are under a mountain of debt. For the single parent I don't see how that works without significant help from family. Many don't have that good of a support system. For those in similar positions, and also those newly unemployed with a mortgage to pay, doing a year or so vs three there's no question. 

It's not crap, it's called real life. Thank the unwillingness for healthcare degree programs to allow PT participation, the tech school industry for providing a quicker, more fiscally friendly option, and lack of organization for the current state of things.


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## JPINFV (Dec 14, 2009)

46Young said:


> So you say that there are single parents going to school FT while working FT? That may work if they're already paid well in their current job, and also have family willing to care for their children in their absence. I'm referring to school age children or younger, not teenagers who don't require child care and txp to/from school. If a single parent is working FT and going to school FT for several years, they'll spend a small fortune in child care expenses as well as tuition. So now they deferred maybe two years of earning while paying out a fortune in child care and are under a mountain of debt. For the single parent I don't see how that works without significant help from family. Many don't have that good of a support system. For those in similar positions, and also those newly unemployed with a mortgage to pay, doing a year or so vs three there's no question.
> 
> It's not crap, it's called real life. Thank the unwillingness for healthcare degree programs to allow PT participation, the tech school industry for providing a quicker, more fiscally friendly option, and lack of organization for the current state of things.



www.fafsa.gov I heard that if you fill that out while attending a legitimate institution of higher learning that you qualify for federal student loans. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and invest in your future. Heck, I know at least one single parent in my class. She ain't workin' full time to the best of my knowledge.


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## 46Young (Dec 14, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> Where's the tech program for the recently unemployed or people with families so that they can obtain unrestricted licenses to practice medicine? Heck, one major difference between prehospital care and medicine is that there really is a lack of physicians (especially primary care physicians) unlike paramedics. A lot of my classmates are married with children, yet are still putting in an insane amount of time to get their education instead of looking for an easy way to obtain said license. Why doesn't the school offer them flexible hours different from everyone else?



Those Carribean schools aren't tech schools, but they do shave off the time required for a degree. It'll work if you can find a place that will allow you to do your residency. If you can do that, then complete your residency, then won't the place that you did your residency be of much more importance than your alma mater? Smae thing in EMS. Many places require (or state desire) for prior experience when applying. It would appear, then, that many employers value relevant work history over your place of education. Experience trumps your alma mater. 

So many of your classmates are married with children and are going through med school. I have to wonder if the marriage will be strained to the breaking point (divorce) due to the physical and emotional unavailability to their families (they're home, but they're unavailable due to hours of studying). I, for one, place family time at a premium. I don't want to be a stranger to my children, or a stranger in my own home. If med school is extremely time intensive as it is, how can one ever hope to devote the proper amount of attention to their family. A family may be able to endure 2-3 years of FT school, but a decade of unavailability? One would risk a high level of resentment and feelings of abandonment from their spouse and leaving their children with self esteem and insecurity issues. I wonder where and what they'll turn as a substitute for fatherly attention (assuming it's the husband going to school of course)? This all sounds like grand assumptions, sure, but these scenarios are possible and do happen to the best of families. I'm a realist. I look at the big picture.

My wife almost left me when I disappeared to medic school shortly after giving birth to our daughter. It took her years to get over that, basically up until I was hired by the FD, when we were finally secure and comfortable, thereby validating the year's misery where I largely abandoned her and left her to provide most of the care for out infant daughter.


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## 46Young (Dec 14, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> www.fafsa.gov I heard that if you fill that out while attending a legitimate institution of higher learning that you qualify for federal student loans. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and invest in your future. Heck, I know at least one single parent in my class. She ain't workin' full time to the best of my knowledge.



Just read your post. Some are more financially secure than others. If that single parent isn't working FT she either lives with family, has significant pre-existing savings/investments, receives alimony/child support, receives Section 8 housing and possibly food stamps, medicaid and such (nothing wrong with that, this would actually be an example of someone who actually uses the program for what it was intended for) or some combination of the above. 

Those loans do need to be repaid at some point. Do I want to go to a tech school for a year and use the next two years' salary increase to pay off the loans, or do I want to go for 3 years and be in that much more debt? We're talking about a medic gig post grad, not exactly the highest paying profession, as you know. Now, if you're talking about grants, that's a different scenario entirely.


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## VentMedic (Dec 14, 2009)

46Young said:


> So many of your classmates are married with children and are going through med school. I have to wonder if the marriage will be strained to the breaking point (divorce) due to the physical and emotional unavailability to their families (they're home, but they're unavailable due to hours of studying). I, for one, place family time at a premium. I don't want to be a stranger to my children, or a stranger in my own home. If med school is extremely time intensive as it is, how can one ever hope to devote the proper amount of attention to their family. A family may be able to endure 2-3 years of FT school, but a decade of unavailability? One would risk a high level of resentment and feelings of abandonment from their spouse and leaving their children with self esteem and insecurity issues. I wonder where and what they'll turn as a substitute for fatherly attention (assuming it's the husband going to school of course)? This all sounds like grand assumptions, sure, but these scenarios are possible and do happen to the best of families. I'm a realist. I look at the big picture.


 
I've known med students, interns, residents and now attendings who have been happily married throughout their education.  We just has the Critical Care Christmas party and just about everyone had their spouses with them.   In fact, many do better knowing they do have a supportive family.  They also know how fulfilling it is to have a rewarding career and a loving family.  While the loans might add up, there are still some things money can not by.  If you have purpose and meaning to your life, the rest will fall into place.



46Young said:


> My wife almost left me when I disappeared to medic school shortly after giving birth to our daughter. It took her years to get over that, basically up until I was hired by the FD, when we were finally secure and comfortable, thereby validating the year's misery where I largely abandoned her and left her to provide most of the care for out infant daughter.


 
Now that is sad since that is only a few months.  I do hope you have your finances in order so the divorce won't wipe you out too bad.

And yes, my family are supportive of me as I am of them. Education has always been emphasized even with the FD.    Your education is an investment and something no one can take away from you.


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## JPINFV (Dec 14, 2009)

46Young said:


> Those Carribean schools aren't tech schools, but they do shave off the time required for a degree. It'll work if you can find a place that will allow you to do your residency. If you can do that, then complete your residency, then won't the place that you did your residency be of much more importance than your alma mater? Smae thing in EMS. Many places require (or state desire) for prior experience when applying. It would appear, then, that many employers value relevant work history over your place of education. Experience trumps your alma mater.



Err. The ones that will get you a license in all 50 states are still 4 years, and that's assuming that you actually pass all of the courses. Those schools are notorious for their attrition rate and for holding people back as long as possible. Going to most Caribbean medical schools is like going to Excelsior College for an RN degree. Sure, if (and that's a big if) you graduate, there's a pretty big chance that the degree isn't worth the money it's printed on. Additionally, if you fail out, you still have to repay your loans. 

edit: Heck, if you think that the Caribbean is all that and a bag of potato chips, I suggest that you go read over the www.valuemd.com Caribbean forum. The only thing that's important at most Caribbean schools is that your student loans get approved. /edit



> So many of your classmates are married with children and are going through med school. I have to wonder if the marriage will be strained to the breaking point (divorce) due to the physical and emotional unavailability to their families (they're home, but they're unavailable due to hours of studying). I, for one, place family time at a premium. I don't want to be a stranger to my children, or a stranger in my own home. If med school is extremely time intensive as it is, how can one ever hope to devote the proper amount of attention to their family. A family may be able to endure 2-3 years of FT school, but a decade of unavailability? One would risk a high level of resentment and feelings of abandonment from their spouse and leaving their children with self esteem and insecurity issues. I wonder where and what they'll turn as a substitute for fatherly attention (assuming it's the husband going to school of course)? This all sounds like grand assumptions, sure, but these scenarios are possible and do happen to the best of families. I'm a realist. I look at the big picture.


Different people have different family schedules. I know a handful of classmates that set aside time (say, Friday nights) that are family time, no 'ifs, ands, or buts.'  However, I am not those people. I have no clue about the strength of their relationship or the plans that they set forth. I am not making their decisions for them. 



> My wife almost left me when I disappeared to medic school shortly after giving birth to our daughter. It took her years to get over that, basically up until I was hired by the FD, when we were finally secure and comfortable, thereby validating the year's misery where I largely abandoned her and left her to provide most of the care for out infant daughter.



So because you had relationship problems during school, medic education should be simplified to make it easier for married couples?


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## 46Young (Dec 14, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> I've known med students, interns, residents and now attendings who have been happily married throughout their education.  We just has the Critical Care Christmas party and just about everyone had their spouses with them.   In fact, many do better knowing they do have a supportive family.  They also know how fulfilling it is to have a rewarding career and a loving family.  While the loans might add up, there are still some things money can not by.  If you have purpose and meaning to your life, the rest will fall into place.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It wasn't only a few months, it was 15 months in total, 13 of which averaged 32-40 hours/wk in addition to school. Not all tech schools aer three month wonders. Firemedics don't exist in the Greater NY area, so it's not like the FD was retarding the advance of EMS in that region anyway. I didn't even know fire and EMS was combined in many places for my first 4 years in EMS. 

My wife and I are  quite happy now that it's paying off. We're expecting our second, something we both decided on. We're buying a house soon. Her parents also intend to move down here, now that they're newly retired. I'd say we're stable. Consider that in my case the timing couldn't have been worse. My girl was born in August, and I started school in October. It wasn't like she was in grade school or something, where she would have been more manageable for my wife in my absensce.


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## 46Young (Dec 14, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> Err. The ones that will get you a license in all 50 states are still 4 years, and that's assuming that you actually pass all of the courses. Those schools are notorious for their attrition rate and for holding people back as long as possible. Going to most Caribbean medical schools is like going to Excelsior College for an RN degree. Sure, if (and that's a big if) you graduate, there's a pretty big chance that the degree isn't worth the money it's printed on. Additionally, if you fail out, you still have to repay your loans.
> 
> edit: Heck, if you think that the Caribbean is all that and a bag of potato chips, I suggest that you go read over the www.valuemd.com Caribbean forum. The only thing that's important at most Caribbean schools is that your student loans get approved. /edit
> 
> ...



I know that I'm ignorant as to how the Carribean schools work, that's why I phrased mty comment in question form. 

Medic education dosen't need to be simplified, it already is (depending on the school, of course, some do better than others in preparing one for the field). My posts discuss current options available. I've said before that if these options weren't available, namely medic tech schools and also lucrative firemedic positions, I would have knocked out an ASN to start, as that would have been the best available option at the time.


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## rhan101277 (Dec 14, 2009)

46Young said:


> EMS missed the opportunity to advance like other healthcare professions. It's likely that those analyzing EMS as a career path won't be willing to risk investing in a 2-4 year degree for a small chance, only a small chance of things improving in the future. As it is now, the pay, benefits, conditions and retirement aren't worthy of someone with a 2-4 year degree *save for a handful of places.
> *
> I wish I had an answer as to how those working in EMS could be effectively organized to push for a better deal. The profession is greatly transient and fragmented as it is. It's difficult to talk someone into getting a degree just to enter a profession where it's the norm to be paid little, and work under poor conditions. I know that other professions became educated and then lobbied for a better deal. I don't see EMS organizing to any great degree given the current conditions, not without prior organization (union, perhaps) that will raise pay/benefits to a minimum standard that would attract more to stay in it for a career, rather than just a stepping stone. Anyone with any sense will balk at what's available in EMS as a career and direct their energy towards a degree in other healthcare fields, which are more financially rewarding.
> 
> ...



Do you know where the "handful of places" are that really have a decent pay difference for the 2 or 4 year degrees.


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## 46Young (Dec 14, 2009)

Look, I'm not against education. I'm posting about all options, and all considerations given each individual's unique situation. Again, if the medical arts would allow less than FT participation, that degree and career path would be all the more attractive, and possible for some that wouldn't be able to so it otherwise. Back in the day, when my daughter was born, I could've possibly maintained the household with my EMT salary, albeit barely. A PT option for RN school would possibly been attractive at the time. It didn't exist. Enter the medic tech school. When your back's against the wall, you're gonna do what you're gonna do. 

Person A gets their MBA, gets married w/children, later becomes employed, buys a house, gets laid off 5 years later, runs out of money, and short sells their house, and is finally hired a week afterward.

Person B spends 4 years in school for an EMS BA while helping support a family on an EMT salary. They incur sizeable debt, which is finally paid off at exactly the same time person A did the short sale. Both are 33 y/o and in exactly the same financial situation, namely debt free but with nearly zero equity, albeit through different paths.

Person C goes to a tech school for a little over a year (me), pays off the 6 grand in tuition in several months due to OT and the sizeable salary increase. Person C realizes that the housing market is greatly inflated, and will face a correction at some point. So, being debt free, person C can then invest in their retirement, a 529, 6 months worth of living expenses, and a portfolio earmarked for a future home purchase. Person C now has a sizeable portfolio, can afford to buy a lot of house in a desireable area, and can still invest in a degree (or several) without any financial worry. 

"Biting the bullet" when you have a family to support, having to pay of sizeable debt, will get you to the same financial situation as the person B - starting from scratch at 33.  

More efficient routes to employment are appropriate for those in certain financial situations. Anything but a traditional college education for a young single person, particularly one living w/parents, is ill advised.


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## 46Young (Dec 14, 2009)

rhan101277 said:


> Do you know where the "handful of places" are that really have a decent pay difference for the 2 or 4 year degrees.



I only said that for sake of argument, because otherwise someone will produce a single place or region as an example of compensation in line with education, and then imply it's the same in many other areas. 

Vent has mentioned Wake Co. NC, Seattle, and a couple of other places as being known for their EMS. Whether "being known" equates to better compensation and working conditions, who knows? 

Experience is the most potent negotiating tool for salary. The two year degree won't help much, maybe as a tie breaker with another applicant. The true benefit regarding employment (not pt care) is with the EMS BA, since that qualifies one for a future admin position. Some places require require a degree as a condition of employment, but they are either centered around a particular region (Oregon) or are few and far between.

When considering salary and cost of living, remember that although the cost of living may be low, with a proportionally lower salary, your amount of disposeable income will also be proportionally lower (less deferred comp contributions) as will your final pension benefit, when compared with an area with a higher cost of living. Someone who says "My salary is 50k top out but the cost of living is cheap" will receive only a 25k benefit at retirement, with an anemic deferred comp portfolio. Now, if you're living somewhere expensive, with a salary in line, your 100k salary will net a 50k/yr pension, wih presumably double the deferred comp portfolio...... well, actually 3-4 times if not more, due to compound interest. Just food for thought.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Dec 15, 2009)

My divorce was about 11 months into medic school, medic school being one of the main reasons given to me by her.


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## 46Young (Dec 15, 2009)

schulz said:


> My divorce was about 11 months into medic school, medic school being one of the main reasons given to me by her.



That blows. You try to better yourself and your family and it bites you in the a$$.


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## Alimae03 (Dec 15, 2009)

Well just to let you know that I am getting my associates degree in health and science. I have alway's wanted to be a flight paramedic. I know that its hard as a single parent and with all the bills. I am not saying that you can do it without an education. I believe that it is every important to have an education and to be on top of the relationship between you and  pt's. So if you want to sit there an dis on anyone you should take a look at yourself cuz dissing on someone is not helping the pt's.


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## reaper (Dec 15, 2009)

schulz said:


> My divorce was about 11 months into medic school, medic school being one of the main reasons given to me by her.



I can tell you that it was on her mind, long before medic school. That was just a good excuse.


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## VentMedic (Dec 15, 2009)

46Young said:


> It wasn't only a few months, it was 15 months in total, 13 of which averaged 32-40 hours/wk in addition to school. Not all tech schools aer three month wonders.


 
15 months tells us nothing. That is the problem with tech school training. You might have gone 1 night per week for 15 months. Even a 110 hour EMT course can be stretched out to a year by going just two hours a week which some do to accomondate some places that use volunteer.

Do you think a handful of health care professions are the only ones that go to college? You also have used the ones who require the least amount of education for entry level which is the RN and RRT. Of course both of those are still well over 2x the amount of training and education than the Paramedic. Even the LVN program is longer. 

Did you happen to think that people of all ages have been going to colleges to get degrees for many, many decades or a couple of centuries? College is nothing new. It is not just a FF that can buy a house. Not everyone with a college education is stupid about finances or too poor to buy a house.



> Person A gets their MBA, gets married w/children, later becomes employed, buys a house, gets laid off 5 years later, runs out of money, and short sells their house, and is finally hired a week afterward.
> 
> Person B spends 4 years in school for an EMS BA while helping support a family on an EMT salary. They incur sizeable debt, which is finally paid off at exactly the same time person A did the short sale. Both are 33 y/o and in exactly the same financial situation, namely debt free but with nearly zero equity, albeit through different paths.
> 
> Person C goes to a tech school for a little over a year (me), pays off the 6 grand in tuition in several months due to OT and the sizeable salary increase. Person C realizes that the housing market is greatly inflated, and will face a correction at some point. So, being debt free, person C can then invest in their retirement, a 529, 6 months worth of living expenses, and a portfolio earmarked for a future home purchase. Person C now has a sizeable portfolio, can afford to buy a lot of house in a desireable area, and can still invest in a degree (or several) without any financial worry.


 
You really keep harping on the fact that you believe education = people who are stupid about finances and a tech school cert is the only way to go. Are you not even going to encourage you own children to go to college? I expect you think saving for your kids college education just takes money away from your own needs. A couple months of tech school should find them a decent union laborer job. They don't need none of that education to get JOB and who cares they have a career with opportunities or even a JOB they like.

Take a good look around you at others such as those who do work in health care that require no less than a 4 year degree which is now many RNs and RRTs. SLPs and OTs now need Masters. PTs need a doctorate. They made the sacrifices to get their cert and state licenses. Those that were serious about their profession did not just whine and whine. They wanted a career in something they know could help patients and give them some satifaction in knowing that. It is not just a JOB to them.

How about the accountants that help you balance your checkbook? Do you think they whined like you have about education when a 4 year degree is entry with a Masters preferred for their profession? What about the person who runs the art gallery in your area? Did they think 4 or 6 years of college was too much to get the job they desired? What about the teachers at your kids' schools? They needed at least a Bachelors with a Masters or even doctorate. Would you send you kid to a school where all the teachers needed just a 1 year cert? Well, maybe YOU would. But do you think all of these teachers are living in the projects or skid row? 

Coming out with all the pitiful broke and divorce crap is just something to justify why YOU don't want to go to school. Not everyone who gets an education past high school is ignorant about finances and has an unstable marriage. 



> *Experience is the most potent negotiating tool for salary. The two year degree won't help much, maybe as a tie breaker with another applicant. The true benefit regarding employment (not pt care) is with the EMS BA, since that qualifies one for a future admin position.* Some places require require a degree as a condition of employment, but they are either centered around a particular region (Oregon) or are few and far between.


 
The experience thing is not always true in the professional world of medicine or in anything. You won't even be considered for the job if you don't have the education. As I have stated many, many times, the Paramedic is one of the older allied health occupations and the only one besides MA, Phlebotomist and OR tech that does not require any degree. 

You could come to us seeking a job as a flight medic with all your years of experience but I can guarantee you will not get hired since you barely have the minimal requirements to be a Paramedic. You have no desire to advance your eduation except for maybe a weekend cert at a tech school and believe those with education are poor and financially ignorant. You have not mentioned anything about patient care or what the taxpayers deserve with all your rambling against education. That is not the professional we want doing patient care or representing our company. 

How can you even speak about what a degree in EMS can do when you didn't even know firemedics existed until a couple years ago? You really don't know very much about EMS at all yet you are coming across as THE WORD. 

Did you read Melclin's post? 

The U.S. education for Paramedic is an embarrassment when compared to many other countries. For it to continue to attract those who make excuses about not getting an education is even more of an embarrassment. It also makes one wonder that if you have so many excuses about not getting an education, what excuses do you come up with when doing patient care if the protocol is a little too long for your liking. Do you take shortcuts there also? It sounds like some are looking for the easy way out of things be it education or their marriage. 

You are only looking for a *job* while others who get their education are looking for a *career* which might also give them more opportunities. I would rather be someone living within my means in a modest home with a career I enjoyed than a JOB just to pay the bills or one that gives bragging rights about what a great bank account they have. Those are usually the ones who do have marital problems because there is no room for the spouse when your only focus is your checkbook.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Dec 16, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> 15 months tells us nothing. That is the problem with tech school training. You might have gone 1 night per week for 15 months. Even a 110 hour EMT course can be stretched out to a year by going just two hours a week which some do to accomondate some places that use volunteer.



He said quite clearly "it was 15 months in total, 13 of which averaged 32-40 hours/wk in addition to school."

Now I know I am not the best at math(since you imply medics with out degrees cant accomplish the simple math needed to be a paramedic), but it seems to me that comes out to over 2000 hours. If he did go 40 hours per week. My program was well over 1300 hours not including A&P courses, biology, EMT-B, or EMT-I ect...


VentMedic said:


> Do you think a handful of health care professions are the only ones that go to college? You also have used the ones who require the least amount of education for entry level which is the RN and RRT. Of course both of those are still well over 2x the amount of training and education than the Paramedic. Even the LVN program is longer.


 once again your just plain wrong and your information is not accurate in the state of Oregon. In Oregon the Paramedic degree exceeds the RN degree at the community college level in hours at many colleges.





VentMedic said:


> Coming out with all the pitiful broke and divorce crap is just something to justify why YOU don't want to go to school. Not everyone who gets an education past high school is ignorant about finances and has an unstable marriage.



Myself and a lot of the other people you are arguing with plan on completing degree's or are currently completing them as paramedics..... 

 not only that you keep ranting abut marriages, last time I checked your education is in healthcare and not marriage counseling. Your not really qualified nor do you have any idea about the circumstances surrounding those of us who have sacrificed these things. You do not know me or anyone else who mentioned anything related to that.

Also quit talking about Oregon EMS, you once again are not qualified to speak on this subject. You do not live in Oregon, your not an Oregon Paramedic, nor do you have any clue of the pro's or cons of our states degree requirement.

I was oversea's in the middle of a war zone earning my financial education rights at 18, I am doing the best I can to utilize them while still supporting myself.  I am finishing a degree, I am a paramedic... and I am proud of that and what I have accomplished. 

The one thing I can agree with you on, is our EMS education is not up to par with the likes of those in the UK, and many other modern country's.


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## Scott33 (Dec 16, 2009)

schulz said:


> He said quite clearly "it was 15 months in total, 13 of which averaged 32-40 hours/wk in addition to school."
> 
> Now I know I am not the best at math(since you imply medics with out degrees cant accomplish the simple math needed to be a paramedic), but it seems to me that comes out to over 2000 hours. If he did go 40 hours per week. My program was well over 1300 hours not including A&P courses, biology, EMT-B, or EMT-I ect...



1,300 hours is about the norm for a medic class in the NY metropolitan area (though some are more) and I have yet to read about one less than 1,200 hours in total. _Advanced Standing_ can allow some RNs and EMT-I's / CC's to sit out on certain didactic components, providing they pass the challenge exam at the beginning of each relevant unit. However, this does not shorten the actual calendar time of the course.

I am curious as to the amount of shortcuts that would need to be taken, to bang out a medic class in as little as 600 hours for an EMT-B. Probably all that boring stuff like pharm and drug math <_<


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## VentMedic (Dec 16, 2009)

schulz said:


> He said quite clearly "it was 15 months in total, 13 of which averaged 32-40 hours/wk in addition to school."


 
And you clearly don't get it.   15 months does not tell the "hours of training" or the number of semester credits like a college.  There is NO way to compare if it was a 1 day/week class and who know who he did for 32 -40 hours per week outside of class. The is not a measurable comparison as there is in a college system. 



> once again your just plain wrong and your information is not accurate in the state of Oregon. In Oregon the Paramedic degree exceeds the RN degree at the community college level in hours at many colleges.


 
They are both 2 year degrees.  But once again YOU don't get it.  The average Paramedic program in the U.S. is between 700 and 1200 "hours of training".  That is less than the clinical hours of RN school.   A Paramedic program can easily be completed in 6 months in some states without much effort.   



> Myself and a lot of the other people you are arguing with plan on completing degree's or are currently completing them as paramedics.....


 
Again YOU don't get it.  Do you think any other health care profession would allow someone to work with a "promise" to complete the degree when they are ready?  Absolutely not!  You said your were a provisional Paramedic who has yet to finish the degree.  In other health care professions you either finish the degree or you don't get your cert.  Plain and simple.    Those such as 46Young just talk about getting a degree.  If he actually had to get the degree before starting as Paramedic, there is a good chance he would never have gotten the patch but would have found a FD or some tech job that did not require much time spent in school.   Even if his 14 or 15 months were the equivalent of a fulltime college load, which it is doubtful if was, do you really think that is a lot of time to spend on education?    Most health care professions are entry level at a 4  or 6 year degree.  Do you think you could get a license as a Physical Therapist now with anything less than a Masters which on average is 6 years of college?     Look at the requirements for education to be a Paramedic in other countries.   A two year degreed Paramedic from this country would still only be "BLS" and little else.


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## VentMedic (Dec 16, 2009)

Scott33 said:


> ,
> 300 hours is about the norm for a medic class in the NY metropolitan area (though some are more) and I have yet to read about one less than 1,200 hours in total. _Advanced Standing_ can allow some RNs and EMT-I's / CC's to sit out on certain didactic components, providing they pass the challenge exam at the beginning of each relevant unit. However, this does not shorten the actual calendar time of the course.


 
In some states the RN can challenge the Paramedic exam if they get the EMT-B cert which can be done in at little as two weeks in some places. Others have may do a transition program in about 150 hours. Some colleges may allow RNs and RRTs to take one or two core courses to get their Paramedic patch. However, their RN and RRT license is still what they will be working under. Getting a Paramedic patch may just be a formality for some who need it for a HEMS program. To most it is just another, "cert" like HBO or ECMO" to perform a specialty. Other states have their own prehospital specialty certifications for RNs which builds on what they already know as an RN. RNs can generally have no problem getting at least 20 intubations on live patients in a short time while some Paramedic programs only have 5 tubes on a manikin. Thus there is an advantage for an RN to go through a bridge or a prehospital RN cert program rather than wasting much time with a traditional Paramedic program that assumes you have only a high school education and a 10th grade reading/comprehension level. 

When they have had college level A&P and Pathophysiology as well as being a CCRN and/or CEN, it is senseless to insult them with the adventures of Sidney Sinus Node. 




Scott33 said:


> I am curious as to the amount of shortcuts that would need to be taken, to bang out a medic class in as little as 600 hours for an EMT-B. Probably all that boring stuff like pharm and drug math <_<


 
You might ask those from TX about this since their Paramedic program was raised from 500 to 624 hours not that long ago. However, if they have not attended a longer program, they may not know what they are missing.

For some states, even if you add in the EMT-B and the EMT-I to the "hours of training" you don't get 1000. 


I will again post this article which is still used as an argument today and as I have seen in 46Young's posts in his stance on "tech" schools. 


*2000 Hours to Train a Paramedic?*
http://www.fd-doc.com/2000Hours.htm


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## EMSLaw (Dec 16, 2009)

Haven't we had this conversation a million times before?  Yes, the current amount of hours is probably sufficient to train a paramedic technician, who responds to certain symptoms with certain treatments by rote.  An EMT-B class writ large.  "Hrm, patient presents with A, B, C.  I administer a bolus of X." Admit it, that's how we all learned medical skills in the basic class - except the intervention was usually, "high-flow O2 and rapid transport."  

If Paramedics want respect as medical technologists, with greater autonomy, independent decision making, better billing reimbursement, and, yes, more "cool skills", then they need to accept that a higher level of education is a prerequisite for that.  

Education has always been something of an arms race.  Prior to the 1960s, the degree I hold was known as an LL.B., or Bachelor of Law.  But other fields, with similar levels of postgraduate education (Medicine, for example), called their professional degree a doctorate.  Thus was born the Juris Doctor.  Incidentally, fifty years before that, you could learn law like our forefathers did - by clerking with an attorney.  In Lincoln's time, you didn't need any formal education to be admitted to the bar.  Now, you need a Bachelor's Degree and a J.D..  People in highly specialized fields go on to get an LL.M., a Masters of Law (which is higher than the first doctorate, incidentally). 

Maybe law's a bad example, but how about this - most police departments now require a 2-year degree, at least.  In addition to the police academy, which is probably of similar hours to a paramedic program. 

So, if you're happy with cookie cutter medicine, then by all means, continue the status quo.  If you want to be more independent, better paid, and more respected, then plan to work for it.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Dec 16, 2009)

here is just one example 

Portland Community College Paramedic Program http://www.pcc.edu/about/catalog/emt.pdf

Portland Community College RN Program
http://www.pcc.edu/about/catalog/nur.pdf

You will see right now they are the same amount of college credits. When I was going to PCC, the Paramedic program had more clinical/field hours(documented hours not college credit hours) than the nursing program and I am sure it still does. Plus alot of Paramedic students are also EMT-Intermediates in school and those hours along with basic hours is more training in the end.

But here is the real kicker.... both those degrees are required in Oregon both those degrees have 107 credits and are both AAS.... but when the Paramedic graduates he/she will make significantly less than the nurse. We have had a degree for 10 years in Oregon for Paramedics, yet I dont think its done anything for us pay wise. We get screwed in Oregon IMO


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## 46Young (Dec 16, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> 15 months tells us nothing. That is the problem with tech school training. You might have gone 1 night per week for 15 months. Even a 110 hour EMT course can be stretched out to a year by going just two hours a week which some do to accomondate some places that use volunteer.
> 
> Do you think a handful of health care professions are the only ones that go to college? You also have used the ones who require the least amount of education for entry level which is the RN and RRT. Of course both of those are still well over 2x the amount of training and education than the Paramedic. Even the LVN program is longer.
> 
> ...



I understand the importance of education. I've been investing for my childrens' college costs shortly after paying off the medic school debt less than 6 months post grad. 

At each point career wise I've weighed the prospect of pursuing a degree vs increasing my compensation, with a long term strategy in mind. 

When my daughter was born, I chose the 15 month paramedic program over the two year + ASN program, figuring that I could pursue that degree at a later date, while being better compensated at my job, to provide financial security for my family. The EMT salary wasn't cutting it, and we needed money quick, since my wife was recently laid off. I had the option of dong the ASN, as there was plenty of availability in the area. I could've worked at SUNY Stonybrook making over 65k to start with a pension. 

It was at that time that I learned about how well they take care of firemedics at my present place of employment. 65k in a few years on the Island, where property taxes alone run from 9-10k/yr and higher, vs homes in the 250's here, and an identical starting salary, plus the DROP at the end of retirement. I chose this job, and still have the option of going back to school, which I'm currently doing, since my rookie year has passed. 

Each decision I made was for financial reasons. I also knew that with each decision the option of school was still there, and now I'm capitalizing on that fact.

I simply used the options afforded to me. If they weren't available, I would've went for the ASN right off the bat. Don't blame me, blame the system. It's obvious that I chose the best path, since I'm still going back to school after secureing a safe, secure career. The decision to go for the EMS AAS is simple - I'll expand my knowledge and position myself for a BA for a future admin position. I'll go for the ASN second, when I have some more tenure, and can make do without OT.

You don't want to get into a discussion with me over personal finance.


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## alphatrauma (Dec 16, 2009)

Great read guys... gold! :beerchug:


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## VentMedic (Dec 16, 2009)

46Young said:


> I understand the importance of education. I've been investing for my childrens' college costs shortly after paying off the medic school debt less than 6 months post grad. [/quote?
> 
> Just out of curiousity...how much did you pay for your Paramedic program?


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## VentMedic (Dec 16, 2009)

schulz said:


> here is just one example
> 
> Portland Community College Paramedic Program http://www.pcc.edu/about/catalog/emt.pdf
> 
> ...


 

So what is your point?

That degree is what a Paramedic should have.  It should be equal to that of an RN in time and credits?  

Every other  health care professionals must graduate for an accredited program for their profession with the same minimum entry to sit for the same national exam for their certification to get a license in their state. 

For EMS we can not even decide what should be the titles for the providers so we have over 50 different ones to choose from.  Look at Washington State for a good laugh.  Each title or level is based on one skill.   

Dude...get a clue.  The reason you are not paid higher is that the Paramedic is still held nation wide to the standard of the lowest denominator.  Right now the lowest denominator is about 624 hours hours of training.   Get those in the other 48 or 49 states to see the importance of a degree and you will see the benefits.  You've already heard plenty of excuses from 46Young who has a cozy FD job and really doesn't care what the profession of EMS does especially when it concerns promoting the status of the Paramedic which is not his primary title.  Unfortunately there are thousands just like him.

 You don't have to live in Oregon and get a degree to work as a Parmaedic.   If you don't to go to college, you can move to TX or any other state to work with those who only have a few hundred hours of training so you won't feel underpaid for your education. 

For goodness sakes!  It is only a 2 year degree.  I bet a rather large percentage of RNs in your state already have their 4 year degree and are working on their Masters.


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## 46Young (Dec 16, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> 46Young said:
> 
> 
> > I understand the importance of education. I've been investing for my childrens' college costs shortly after paying off the medic school debt less than 6 months post grad. [/quote?
> ...


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## VentMedic (Dec 16, 2009)

46Young said:


> Sure, compensation has been low due to lack of education, but it's now a catch 22. Organize/unionize.


 
We've had unions for decades. What have they done for EMS to get degrees? What are their opinions on the 50 different certs? This has occurred over the past 40 years and I have yet to see any union say a thing about unifying EMTs (A-B-C-D-E-F-P or whatever) when it comes to the titles or education. Ever wonder why medic mills are so prominent in a fire based EMS state like Florida? The quicker the better.


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## 46Young (Dec 16, 2009)

Not caring what EMS does as a profession isn't entirely accurate. I much prefer being out on the street as a 911 medic over working as an RN. I also had an interest in fire, but not as much as EMS. It was at about the time that I realized EMS in it's current state is largely a dead end job is when I finally decided to punt (plan to get out of EMS FT) and get the ASN. It was also at this time that I was made aware of the dept I'm currently employed at. It was either work a job that I would generally enjoy (RN) in an area with an absurdly high cost of living, or do the two jobs that I would like even more at the same time (firemedic, not medicfire -that doesn't roll off the tongue as well) and be comfortable to boot.

I'm currently advocating 2 year degrees (and beyond) locally. I'm also telling my friends at NSLIJ the same thing. If nothing changes, however, I'm still good. I'd like things to get better, but we won't be affected if they don't. 

I wasn't willing to gamble on things maybe changing. It's too iffy to help foster change for 10-20 years or more without a guarantee of anything actually changing. The problem is that many other's aren't willing to gamble, either.


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## 46Young (Dec 17, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> We've had unions for decades. What have they done for EMS to get degrees? What are their opinions on the 50 different certs? This has occurred over the past 40 years and I have yet to see any union say a thing about unifying EMTs (A-B-C-D-E-F-P or whatever) when it comes to the titles or education. Ever wonder why medic mills are so prominent in a fire based EMS state like Florida? The quicker the better.



They haven't done anything for EMS to get degrees. What I'm getting at is that more would see it as worth their trouble to go with the EMS AAS if there were higher paying positions available than what is the industry standard currently. Unionization or other strong political organization may be able to help with that (compensation). Nothing else will at the moment.

Nowadays, with so many unemployed, losing their homes and such, with educated professionals unable to find work with their chosen degree, future students will be much more selective in their choice of degree, seeking compensation and job availability/security as the highest priorities. EMS at the moment would appear unattractive as a choice for a degree.


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## RALS504 (Dec 28, 2009)

AS & BS in EMS:
http://www.roswell.enmu.edu/index.php

http://www.roswell.enmu.edu/degree_plans_html/0911/e90911EmergencyMedSerAS/index.html

Easy and cheap AS degree if you have your NREMT-P.


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