# Grandfather weighing 30 stone 'died after falling off paramedics' stretcher'



## MMiz (Dec 12, 2009)

*Grandfather weighing 30 stone 'died after falling off paramedics' stretcher'*

A grieving widow has told how her 30-stone husband died on the pavement outside their home after ambulance staffed accidentally dropped him from a stretcher.

Kenny Williams, 55, died in front of his horrified family and neighbours outside the bungalow he shared with his wife Monica, 63, on March 1 this year.

The grandfather-of-four had called the NHS for an ambulance to his home in Newmarket, Suffolk, after becoming breathless and feeling ill.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-stone-died-falling-paramedics-stretcher.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-stone-died-falling-paramedics-stretcher.html
*Read More!*


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## DrParasite (Dec 12, 2009)

for translations, 30 stones is 420 lbs.   there is no way a 2 person crew can handle that heavy of a person by themselves.

and as the comments ont he article say, doesn't the "victim" hold some accountability for letting himself get so heavy?  of course not, it's all the EMS workers fault


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## VentMedic (Dec 12, 2009)

DrParasite said:


> and as the comments ont he article say, doesn't the "victim" hold some accountability for letting himself get so heavy? of course not, it's all the EMS workers fault


 
So EMS is only for patients who have normal health at a normal weight?  It must be nice to pick and choose who calls 911 in your area.  

Where is their commonsense to know they couldn't lift 420 pounds safely?


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## Onceamedic (Dec 12, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Where is their commonsense to know they couldn't lift 420 pounds safely?



Absolutely on the money.  In the last month, we have transported a lady that said she weighed 400lbs, however, she was weighed at the hospital at 523lbs, and a gentleman that tipped the scale at just over 700lbs.  When these extremely obese patients have to be transported, it involves 2 crews from our station and 2 fire crews. At least one of our rigs is a box rig.   First on scene medic begins patient assessment, the EMT commences to remove the gurney and rails from the rig and pad the gurney hook.  No one even attempts to move the patient until there are 8 people on the handles of the tarp.  

I don't know what these medics were thinking.


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## JPINFV (Dec 12, 2009)

DrParasite said:


> for translations, 30 stones is 420 lbs.   there is no way a 2 person crew can handle that heavy of a person by themselves.
> 
> and as the comments ont he article say, doesn't the "victim" hold some accountability for letting himself get so heavy?  of course not, it's all the EMS workers fault



Yes. No single 2 man crew should be expected to lift a 420 lb patient by themselves. That's why you call for extra resources.


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## VentMedic (Dec 12, 2009)

I truly envy the EMTs today with the high tech stretchers. I started in the profession with a stretcher that was one position which was about 8 inches off the ground. To get any patient off that stretcher we had to lift it to the level of the ED bed and the nurses sheeted the patient over. We had a great working relationship with FDs, privates and anyone else who cared to assist either at scene or in the ED. 

However, physical fitness was emphasized back then so most of us had strong backs and legs. Given what we had to work with for equipment, commonsense had to be a necessity.


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## EMSLaw (Dec 12, 2009)

I think the comments to the article, and some of the comments on this thread, are a bit repulsive.  We treat people who have made bad decisions all the time - heart disease, drug overdose, ETOH, car crashes - but because this patient was heavy, well, that's one of the few prejudices that are still politically correct.  

Regardless of what he did to get that size, Emergency Medical Services has to do what they can to treat him.  If they didn't have a sufficient stretcher, that might mean putting him on a reeves or tarp on the floor of the ambulance, and leaving the stretcher behind.  It certainly means they should have recognized the problem and called for additional resources - Call the dispatcher and ask for a fire department or another ambulance or two.  

A man's got to know his limitations, as Detective Callaghan once said.


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## RyanMidd (Dec 12, 2009)

The last time I helped package a bari-patient was for fixed wing air medevac. She had a GI bleed of some sort, but what I remember is being outside on the airport tarmac, 2 medics inside the plane, and myself outside. I was grabbing one handful of cellulose at a time and pushing it through the doorway of the aircraft. It was -38 Celsius, and I was sweating, because we were literally scooping this lady through the door one handful at a time.

That aside;

If the respective governments of North America want to save billions of taxpayer dollars in healthcare per year, have them invest in some preventative and rehabilitative programs like free sports and subsidized nutritionists. The pounds shed will pay for themselves in reduced medical complications.

/troll.


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## DrParasite (Dec 14, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> So EMS is only for patients who have normal health at a normal weight?  It must be nice to pick and choose who calls 911 in your area.
> 
> Where is their commonsense to know they couldn't lift 420 pounds safely?


I'm sorry, but where did I say EMS gets to pick and chose their calls?  in fact, did I ever say that the person shouldn't be treated?  so STFU, and don't ever insinuate that I said something that I clearly didn't.

Did you even read the article?  the normal ambulance service was too busy to send a bariatric unit, so the private ambulance got sent.  I don't know any details besides what is mentioned in the article.  Everyone says call for help, sure, why not?  except there were no other ambulances available, which is why this private unit was sent.  and I have no idea where the FD was, maybe not available?  maybe these two had to make the best out of a bad situation?

"as two paramedics struggled to carry Kenny from the house he slipped from the stretcher and fell onto the concrete drive. Seconds later he died" is what the article says.  maybe the patient leaned the wrong way and tipped the stretched with his weight?  you know, throwing it off balance?  or maybe they hit a hole in the walk way, and is caused everything thing to shift, causing the fall.  I wasn't there, and I don't know.  But the article seems to places all the blame solely on the paramedics.

The blurb makes it sound like the fall killed the guy.  did it?  maybe the fact that he was morbidly obese resulted in secondary health problems with caused the death? maybe he was having a massive MI already, and his resp drive just gave out at just the wrong time.  or maybe the fall killed him, the autopsy will have to find that out.



> I think the comments to the article, and some of the comments on this thread, are a bit repulsive. We treat people who have made bad decisions all the time - heart disease, drug overdose, ETOH, car crashes - but because this patient was heavy, well, that's one of the few prejudices that are still politically correct.


first of all, you really don't want to hear my opinion on ETOH emergencies (no sympathy at all for chronic users who do it to themselves).  Will I get them to the hospital?  absolutely.  Will I treat them according to local protocols?  absolutely.  Will they get any sympathy at all?  absolutely not.  That doesn't mean they don't get treated.

As for prejudices?  being fat is not a prejudice.  You don't know how much I weigh.  I might weight 100 lbs.  or I might weigh 450.  or, I might have used to weigh 450, and through eating right and exercising, now only weigh 225. For the record, I know several people in the 3rd example, who lost weight though proper diet and exercise, and others who used gastric bypass.  Either way, they realized they had a problem, and took the steps to correct it. 

Think of how much intake you must consume to maintain a weight of 420.  It isn't a 2000 calorie diet.  People should be held responsible for their own actions.  Personal accountability, it's gone the way of the dinosaur.  It's never a person's fault for their own actions.

Oh, and for the record, I used to be heavier than I am now.  portion control, regular exercise, and eating right was what I did to lose the weight.  I took the steps needed to make the change to my lifestyle.  It all comes back to personal accountability.


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## reaper (Dec 14, 2009)

It all comes down to the Private responders that failed at their job, period. No matter the circumstances, you never try to lift that weight alone!


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## VentMedic (Dec 14, 2009)

DrParasite said:


> I'm sorry, but where did I say EMS gets to pick and chose their calls? in fact, did I ever say that the person shouldn't be treated? so STFU, and don't ever insinuate that I said something that I clearly didn't.
> 
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Oh, and for the record, I used to be heavier than I am now. portion control, regular exercise, and eating right was what I did to lose the weight. I took the steps needed to make the change to my lifestyle. It all comes back to personal accountability.


 

You still manage to blame the patient....again. Aren't EMTs trained in scene assessment and taking responsibilty for their own safety as well as that of the patient? 

We just had a thread here where several EMS providers discussed their cigarette habit. Why don't you take your "personal accountability" speech to that thread? 



> Think of how much intake you must consume to maintain a weight of 420. It isn't a 2000 calorie diet.


 
You might also try expanding your knowledge of A&P and Pathophysiology somewhat since there are dozens of disorders that can cause a person to be overweight regardless of how little they eat.


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## guardian528 (Dec 14, 2009)

what exactly is a "stone"? like, what measurement system is it from? i've never heard of it


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## VentMedic (Dec 14, 2009)

guardian528 said:


> what exactly is a "stone"? like, what measurement system is it from? i've never heard of it


 
British stone = 14 pounds U.S.


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## Scott33 (Dec 14, 2009)

The comments at the bottom of the article make for an interesting read. There are obviously a lot more _food nazis_ in the UK than the US.

As I said in another forum, was it his morbid obesity which was the main cause of death, or was it the 4 foot fall? Time will tell.


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## Hal9000 (Dec 17, 2009)

Scott33 said:


> The comments at the bottom of the article make for an interesting read. There are obviously a lot more _food nazis_ in the UK than the US.
> 
> As I said in another forum, was it his morbid obesity which was the main cause of death, or was it the 4 foot fall? Time will tell.



Neither.  It was the sudden stop. 

*duck*

Someone _had_ to say it.  

Ok, I'll leave now.


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## CAOX3 (Dec 17, 2009)

I have to agree they attempted to move the patient with out the neccesay resources, transportation is an aspect of treatment so their liable and Im guessing its going to cost them lots.


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## Lifeguards For Life (Dec 17, 2009)

DrParasite said:


> for translations, 30 stones is 420 lbs.   there is no way a 2 person crew can handle that heavy of a person by themselves.
> 
> and as the comments ont he article say, doesn't the "victim" hold some accountability for letting himself get so heavy?  of course not, it's all the EMS workers fault



it's their fault for dropping him


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## bunkie (Dec 18, 2009)

Lifeguards For Life said:


> it's their fault for dropping him



+1. Should we blame addicts for their deaths? How about MI's for theirs? What about diabetics for being on dialysis? When did pt advocacy turn into pt blame?


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## Sasha (Dec 18, 2009)

bunkie said:


> +1. Should we blame addicts for their deaths? How about MI's for theirs? What about diabetics for being on dialysis? When did pt advocacy turn into pt blame?



When the provider becomes burnt out, bitter and prejudice.


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## nomofica (Dec 18, 2009)

bunkie said:


> +1. Should we blame addicts for their deaths? How about MI's for theirs? What about diabetics for being on dialysis? When did pt advocacy turn into pt blame?



A drug addict is much different than a person with an MI or a diabetic on dialysis. A junkie's drug addiction isn't an medical condition beyond their control (to an extent)


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## Sasha (Dec 18, 2009)

nomofica said:


> A drug addict is much different than a person with an MI or a diabetic on dialysis. A junkie's drug addiction isn't an medical condition beyond their control (to an extent)



People with MIs can lower their risk with proper diet and exercise... If the dialysis that is caused by diabetes caused by obesity can be preventable. There is such a thing as food addiction and mental disorders that lead to bingeing.. and drug addiction is a medical problem as well, often fueled by mental disorder just like overeating can be.


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## redcrossemt (Dec 18, 2009)

Sasha said:


> People with MIs can lower their risk with proper diet and exercise... If the dialysis that is caused by diabetes caused by obesity can be preventable. There is such a thing as food addiction and mental disorders that lead to bingeing.. and drug addiction is a medical problem as well, often fueled by mental disorder just like overeating can be.



+1. Thank you.


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## vquintessence (Dec 18, 2009)

There is a lot of unknown here.

Perhaps the ambo's were flustered by their obese pt presenting with ominous signs?  I mean think of the situation as you responding to an obese male, with significant acute onset of difficulty breathing.  What medical conditions come to mind, and what interventions will be required?  Are any of those possibilities time sensitive?  How long did the pt wait prior activating EMS?  Would the EMS service allow a second unit to RESPOND to a lift assist?
*IRREGARDLESS*, I'll bet the end result will place a majority amount of negligence on the EMS providers for not remaining calm & collected while waiting for back-up.  And a further bet would say the blame is justifiable.

If we look at the story in a different way... say.. how about the pt died on their stretcher while waiting for a lift assist to arrive.  Wonder how the conversation would be then?



			
				sasha said:
			
		

> drug addiction is a medical problem as well, *often fueled by mental disorder* just like overeating can be



That's a stretch of the imagination.. but undoubtedly some piece of truth exists in the bowels of that statement.


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## Onceamedic (Dec 18, 2009)

vquintessence said:


> Perhaps the ambo's were flustered by their obese pt presenting with ominous signs?



On scene with 52 yof, stated weight of 400 lbs, chief complaint difficulty breathing.  Home is a hovel, with actual holes in the floor.  Patient has not left her bed in 4 months.  Her bed is soaked in urine.  Patient BP is 48/30 and she is in afib on the monitor.  No prior cardiac history, no way to tell when onset of afib.  Pt's body from the waist down is a mess of ulcers and excoriations.

We stabilized this patient and moved her to definitive care, all without dropping her and/or causing further harm.  I don't care how "flustered" a medic is, there is NO excuse for dropping a patient.


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## EMSLaw (Dec 18, 2009)

vquintessence said:


> Would the EMS service allow a second unit to RESPOND to a lift assist?



They better.  If not, I'm sure the fire department will come if you call.  Heck, they'll come and rip walls out if that's what you need to move the patient.  Like it or not, we're in a transport business, and getting the patient safely from Point A to Point B is a key part of what we do.



> If we look at the story in a different way... say.. how about the pt died on their stretcher while waiting for a lift assist to arrive.  Wonder how the conversation would be then?



Well, first of all, were that to happen, the patient would die in bed, because they should be waiting for the lift assist to even move him to the stretcher.  And in that case, the blame would fall on the service that didn't send the right people and equipment.  

Or it would simply be regrettable, but nothing anyone can help.  In my area, two of the local services operate bariatric units.  Neither generally operates 24-7, and if you need a bariatric unit at night they have to pull multiple rigs off the road to get two bariatric-trained EMTs.  It can take an hour to get the specialized ambulance on scene.  If the patient is having a heart attack, you either improvise, adapt, overcome.... or the patient doesn't get to the hospital and is DRT.

The bottom line here is either move the patient safely, or get more help.  You should know how much you can handle.  We all know that even a 250 lbs patient is heavy when its dead weight, and this patient was way more than that.  The last thing we want to do is make the patient worse by dropping them.


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## VentMedic (Dec 18, 2009)

And you definitely don't need 3 patients if the EMTs are injured in the lift when one is already too much to handle.


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## atropine (Dec 18, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> I truly envy the EMTs today with the high tech stretchers. I started in the profession with a stretcher that was one position which was about 8 inches off the ground. To get any patient off that stretcher we had to lift it to the level of the ED bed and the nurses sheeted the patient over. We had a great working relationship with FDs, privates and anyone else who cared to assist either at scene or in the ED.
> 
> However, physical fitness was emphasized back then so most of us had strong backs and legs. Given what we had to work with for equipment, commonsense had to be a necessity.



Yeah yeah, you probably had to feed the hoarses back then too, hey we have gasoline powered ambulances now days.


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## VentMedic (Dec 18, 2009)

atropine said:


> Yeah yeah, you probably had to feed the hoarses back then too, hey we have gasoline powered ambulances now days.


 
At least our firefighters weren't dying of heart attacks and strokes on scene back then.   Look at the recent studies done with the Southern California FDs.


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## Scott33 (Dec 18, 2009)

Kaisu said:


> On scene with 52 yof, stated weight of 400 lbs, chief complaint difficulty breathing.  Home is a hovel, with actual holes in the floor.  Patient has not left her bed in 4 months.  Her bed is soaked in urine.  Patient BP is 48/30



She wouldn't be pissing the bed for much longer with a MAP of 36.


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## bunkie (Dec 18, 2009)

Sasha said:


> People with MIs can lower their risk with proper diet and exercise... If the dialysis that is caused by diabetes caused by obesity can be preventable. There is such a thing as food addiction and mental disorders that lead to bingeing.. and drug addiction is a medical problem as well, often fueled by mental disorder just like overeating can be.



+2, Just what I was going to say.


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## kittaypie (Dec 19, 2009)

DrParasite said:


> first of all, you really don't want to hear my opinion on ETOH emergencies (no sympathy at all for chronic users who do it to themselves).  Will I get them to the hospital?  absolutely.  Will I treat them according to local protocols?  absolutely.  Will they get any sympathy at all?  absolutely not.  That doesn't mean they don't get treated.



part of patient treatment is treating them emotionally as well as physically.


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## Onceamedic (Dec 20, 2009)

Scott33 said:


> She wouldn't be pissing the bed for much longer with a MAP of 36.



Nope.. she was pretty darn sick... but she hadn't left her bed in months, so who knows when she did the pissing?

*** insert rant about enabler family members here **********


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