# Hospital uses armed man in unannounced drill



## MMiz (May 31, 2010)

*Hospital uses armed man in unannounced drill*
_Test of security procedures results in frightening moments_

How’s this for an ill-conceived emergency preparedness drill? An off-duty cop pretending to be a terrorist stormed into a hospital intensive care unit brandishing a handgun, which he pointed at nurses while herding them down a corridor and into a room.

There, after harrowing moments, he explained that the whole caper was a training exercise.

The staff at St. Rose Dominican Hospitals-Siena Campus, where the incident took place Monday morning, found the exercise more traumatizing than instructive.

Hospital employees would have been justified in fearing for their lives.

*Read more!*


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## lightsandsirens5 (May 31, 2010)

Holy cow! There are people out ther who carry who would not hesitate to shoot in a situation like that. Not to mention if the security gaurds don't know what is going on, they might just do their job.

Bigtime violation of the three Cs of inter-organization operations. Communitcate, coordinate, cooperate.


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## TransportJockey (May 31, 2010)

If I was visiting somone and saw that I might have drawn on them. An armed person brandishing a weapon in a hospital is NOT a good drill to run.


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## Smash (May 31, 2010)

Wow! Stupidity reaches new heights. That cop is lucky to still be alive, all it takes is one person carrying, be it security or a visitor to the hospital and it would be all over. There should be some people losing their jobs over that.


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## FLEMTP (May 31, 2010)

jtpaintball70 said:


> If I was visiting somone and saw that I might have drawn on them. An armed person brandishing a weapon in a hospital is NOT a good drill to run.



drawn? Id hope that you would do much more than just draw on them... like... oh.. i dunno... put several well placed shots into the soon to be dead armed person?


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## TransportJockey (May 31, 2010)

FLEMTP said:


> drawn? Id hope that you would do much more than just draw on them... like... oh.. i dunno... put several well placed shots into the soon to be dead armed person?



If I had a clean shot you're damned right I would. But having been in many ICUs, a clean shot there would be rather hard to get. Although with 10mm the resulting mushroom cloud might get him too


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## Trayos (Jun 9, 2010)

Not to mention the general paranoia fostered in any patients there at the time...


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## foxfire (Jun 10, 2010)

umm, I would say there was a huge communication break down somewhere.
That cop better be thanking his gaurdian angel, cause it was working over time. 
 I know many who would have plugged him if given the chance, without endangering anyone else of course.  Bet the staff was spitting mad about the whole thing.


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## mycrofft (Jun 10, 2010)

*Bystanders virtually never "draw down".*

Almost never happens and when it does it is almost always an off duty LE officer.
The cop and whoever put him up to it are in deep doodoo and deserve it.

Have a nice thread.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jun 10, 2010)

We have a lot of people conceal carry in Oregon, even in a city as liberal as Portland. In fact 2 private citizens who where conceal carrying where just in the news. They did draw and fire there weapons.


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## DrParasite (Jun 10, 2010)

I know I'm going to be in the minority here, but I think it's not a bad idea (ok, the whole armed guy probably not so but the concept is solid).

At a hospital I used to work at, I wanted to come in one day in civilian clothes, and several water pistols.  and see how many people I could soak before security/PD subdued me.   Not using live ammo, just a water pistol that looked like a gun.  Of course, the head of security would know what is going on, but not the supervisors or field personnel.

The reason being is simple: want to test your security? then make it unannounced.  come in at 3am.  or even better, come in at noon, along with a bunch of patient's families. See how far you get.  See who lets you into secure areas (or who you can follow into secure areas).

Pre-announced security drills are a waste of time, because people are on the lookout.  They are looking for the incident to happen.  just like emergency preparedness drills, they aren't realistic because extra staff is brought in to handle drill duties.

While using an armed person in an unplanned drill might not have been the best way to do a drill, what does it say about security if an armed person was able to gain entry into the hospital and hold the ICU hostage?


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jun 10, 2010)

thats all good but the problem is its complete luck a bystander did not try and kill him, armed or not.


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## Chimpie (Jun 10, 2010)

> The staff was supposed to have been told in advance of the exercise, but there was a “disconnect,” North said. That won’t happen again, he said.



Maybe the security staff knew, but the rest of the staff didn't.  I agree 100% with above.  All it takes is one private citizen who happens to be carrying and this would have been a much different story.


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## mycrofft (Jun 10, 2010)

*From Oregon Concealed Carry:*

http://www.oregonconcealedcarry.com/index.php?showtopic=5515

"GRESHAM, Ore. -- A man who witnessed several iPhones being stolen from an AT&T store chased after the theft suspects and opened fire Tuesday night in Gresham, police said...XXX then chased after the thieves while armed with his gun. XXX ran to the corner and saw the thieves trying to drive away, so he decided to try to shoot out the car's tires, Wilson said. Witter fired two shots in direct line with the Gresham City Hall MAX stop park and ride. It's not clear if the shots hit the car".

Sorry, I'll butt out. BTW I'm visiting Oregon this week and next. Unarmed!


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jun 11, 2010)

mycrofft said:


> http://www.oregonconcealedcarry.com/index.php?showtopic=5515
> 
> Sorry, I'll butt out. BTW I'm visiting Oregon this week and next. Unarmed!



Watch out were all armed as you can see, and real depressed because of all the rain if your in Portland.


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## mycrofft (Jun 11, 2010)

*It's not the rain, it's the freeflowing caffeine.*

Back to the thread.
I believe in no-notice _evaluations_ and heavily rehearsed and repeated exercises. A no-notice _exercise_ is only good to rile people up or depress them.

Neb Air Guard had an exercise for the SP's with a simulated holdup of the little BX. Sweeping the area for the exercise perp, one cop saw a guy in civilian clothes standig between two buildings tracking civilian airliners with a Stinger launcher, and arrested him. Was an Army Guard troop (they were co-located) who signed the device out and was 'practicing". The SP was advised he did good, but should have considered lethal force to rapidly neutralize the threat.


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## EMSLaw (Jun 11, 2010)

mycrofft said:


> Was an Army Guard troop (they were co-located) who signed the device out and was 'practicing". The SP was advised he did good, but should have considered lethal force to rapidly neutralize the threat.



Using civilian airliners for target practice - even simulated target practice, has to violate a few dozen FAA regulations.


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## Focallength (Jun 11, 2010)

so heres a theory for you, say this situation happened and someone decided to take a oxygen tank and play wack-a-mole with the U.C., would they be arrested for attempted murder or murder? I would like to think that they wouldnt but deep inside I know they would. this is just stupid beyond belief, I suspect some administrators will never work outside of the fastfood industry ever again and some law suits will be sprining up. PTSD, sorry I cant work anymore and being as you staged this event Im going to have to be supported for the rest of my life...$3million a year should just about cover it, plus medical expenses.


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## TransportJockey (Jun 11, 2010)

Focallength said:


> so heres a theory for you, say this situation happened and someone decided to take a oxygen tank and play wack-a-mole with the U.C., would they be arrested for attempted murder or murder? I would like to think that they wouldnt but deep inside I know they would. this is just stupid beyond belief, I suspect some administrators will never work outside of the fastfood industry ever again and some law suits will be sprining up. PTSD, sorry I cant work anymore and being as you staged this event Im going to have to be supported for the rest of my life...$3million a year should just about cover it, plus medical expenses.


I know in NM, for instance, if I had been in this situation and drawn and fired at the officer, most likely I would be covered with it being considered a good shoot. Not sure about the O2 tank thing. 

But this being a 'drill' might muddle what would count as a 'good shoot'


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## mcdonl (Jun 23, 2010)

DrParasite said:


> Pre-announced security drills are a waste of time, because people are on the lookout.



Not entirely. The reason I say that is tests like this are not made to target people who are "Situationally aware" or even, somewhat alert it is for the people who do not have any idea of their surroundings and how they may handle a stressful situation. Particularly if they are in a role where the public will expect some level of protection from them.

Therefor, an announcement that a security drill is going to happen will in all likelihood fall on deaf ears and only the alert and attentive will be on the lookout for the drill, and well... they would have been aware anyway.

I agree with your other points. I have been involved in a few baby snatching drills when testing infant security/asset protection systems at hospitals and you would be surprised what you can do (Drop a baby in a dumbwaiter to a friend down below....) without ever being noticed, even during a system test scenario. h34r:


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