# New Ferno IN/X Cot



## DerekC

All I can say is, WOW!

http://youtu.be/kK_AiBeKhus


----------



## MMiz

This is a game changer when transporting patients down a couple of stairs or loading the ambulance. I look forward to seeing how they perform.


----------



## AtlasFlyer

I wonder how they hold up in the snow/slush/winter crap.


----------



## MonkeyArrow

Didn't Stryker already do this x2 with their powered cots and their power load system. Ferno seems a bit behind the curve on this one.


----------



## NomadicMedic

I don't think Stryker has independent legs like the Ferno. I think Stryker power cots are all Xframes.


----------



## exodus

This doesn't look useful at all. It looks bulky, heavy, and like a pain to use.  Now you will have to wait and hold up for two legs to come down when loading and unloading.  Same thing going down a few steps of stairs. We cont have problems with 2 or 3 stairs. It's the big stairs we do.

I do like the idea of lights on it though, extra visibility is always good.


----------



## NomadicMedic

If it was a hoverboard, I'd be stoked. Now, just looks heavy. And a pain when the battery dies.


----------



## MonkeyArrow

Even though it does have independent legs, why is it preferable over the x-frame design? They both appear to do the same thing, except for two independent systems having a greater chance of breaking versus one. Also, the argument about going down a few stairs to save your back is invalid, because if you were so worried about saving your back, then you would go ahead and grab the stair chair anyways.


----------



## MMiz

MonkeyArrow said:


> Even though it does have independent legs, why is it preferable over the x-frame design? They both appear to do the same thing, except for two independent systems having a greater chance of breaking versus one. Also, the argument about going down a few stairs to save your back is invalid, because if you were so worried about saving your back, then you would go ahead and grab the stair chair anyways.


The independent legs appear to hold the entire weight of the cot/patient when loading and unloading the patient to and from the ambulance.


----------



## Handsome Robb

I think this is going to be a huge game changer. I doubt it's much heavier than the power gurneys. With that said you shouldn't be carrying your gurney up stairs anyways and you don't have to carry this one it lifts itself up stairs and into the unit without having to install the power load system. 

I heard a number around 20k per unit...saving money on back injuries would offset that though. I've heard people saying that it'll never work because of cost...how much does it cost to buy a PowerPro and a PowerLoad together? Gurney is 6-8k if I remember correctly and the load system is probably near there if not more.


----------



## MonkeyArrow

Which is exactly why in my first comment, I said that this is Ferno's somewhat belated response to Stryker's power-whatever monopoly. This equals the Stryker power cot plus power load. Why this is so revolutionary versus the Stryker's product, I really still don't get that part. Maybe EMTlifers are just Ferno lovers.


----------



## Tigger

We've ordered one. 10 grand less than a powerpro with the powerload system. It's self loading too, I saw a video of a child loading a rather large male with it unassisted. 

Looks awesome to me. Automatically charges while in its mount, which meets European crash test ratings which are far stricter than current standards.


----------



## EMSLaw

Robb said:


> I heard a number around 20k per unit...saving money on back injuries would offset that though. I've heard people saying that it'll never work because of cost...how much does it cost to buy a PowerPro and a PowerLoad together? Gurney is 6-8k if I remember correctly and the load system is probably near there if not more.




The Stryker cots go for near $14k. It's another $20k for the power load.  Maybe less if you're buying in bulk? 

Though we've gotten away from the power stretchers in my service because people don't like the weight (and the cost is prohibitive for us). The unpowered Mx-Pros seem to be well liked.


----------



## Handsome Robb

I've never worked with a manual gurney except for our bariatric gurney and in school. The PowerPros really are not that heavy. I'm only 5'8" and 140#...


----------



## Rin

MonkeyArrow said:


> Also, the argument about going down a few stairs to save your back is invalid, because if you were so worried about saving your back, then you would go ahead and grab the stair chair anyways.



A large number of our patients are unable to sit 90° for a stair chair due to back problems or are unable to fit in the stair chair due to pure width.  :/


----------



## MonkeyArrow

Rin said:


> A large number of our patients are unable to sit 90° for a stair chair due to back problems or are unable to fit in the stair chair due to pure width.  :/



So how exactly do you guys get patients down from THAT 3rd floor apartment without elevators and crooked stairs?


----------



## Kevinf

It would become an extrication and FD would be called. I just had a discharge from an ECF to residence where the patient was bed confined and morbidly obese. The hallway to the bedroom was a tight Z shape. Stretcher wouldn't fit fully compacted, pt too big for stair chair (wheelchair also did not fit through hallway) or other two man non-stretcher methods. So we called FD for an _intrication_ assist. We dropped the stretcher and used 3 layers of blankets for a 6 man lift and carry. Still struggled to get around that zig-zag.


----------



## Rin

^ What he said.


----------



## Dylfrick

Doing mostly transport side of the industry I could see how this would be pretty useful.  Yes taking a stretcher up a few steps isn't a huge problem most of the day, but by the fifth or sixth 225 plus person up 3 steps, that stretcher could come in handy.  As for a 911 situation I don't see why what is out there isn't already good enough.

Also don't like how I didn't see side rails throughout the video...maybe I just missed them.


----------



## DerekC

In the 911 setting, you still have to pick up the cot to load it in the truck, even if it is a power cot (we don't have power load), you still have to go up and down stairs (yes this is only good for 2-3 stairs), and you have to do it faster (sometimes, if actually a critical PT). Coming from someone who uses a power Stryker everyday, this looks amazing.


----------



## Handsome Robb

DerekC said:


> In the 911 setting, you still have to pick up the cot to load it in the truck, even if it is a power cot (we don't have power load), you still have to go up and down stairs (yes this is only good for 2-3 stairs), and you have to do it faster (sometimes, if actually a critical PT). Coming from someone who uses a power Stryker everyday, this looks amazing.




I can count on one hand things where seconds truly matter and that's is getting there not getting out. 

I'd love to play with one of these things. Ok maybe it's overly complicated from the lifting standpoint but the lighting system is definitely nice.


----------



## Chimpie

... But it has LEDs!!

Looks interesting, and anything to limit stress and strain on medics/emergency responders should be given a look-over.


----------



## MonkeyArrow

But the LEDs seemed to illuminate a full 2 feet in front of the stretcher. Seemed to illuminate the pt. more than the road. Now if this stretcher had a couple of these, now we'd be talking.


----------



## Bullets

We have both the stryker and ferno power cots. The strykers are miles better, lighter easier to move over surfaces and less top heavy. This looks twice as bad. 

I also dont see how you dont have to support one end when you go down stairs with this thing. If you watch the video the back wheels are in the air and only the front are on the ground, so you still have to support it.

Once again, Ferno is late to the game with a heavier piece of equipment. 

A shame, considering the 35-A is a classic EMS cot and i love ours


----------



## GoldcrossEMTbasic

I love the nice LEDs on the side of the cot for night time calls. Very ergonomic! I have seen the Stryker's, they have kind of the same features. But the Ferno is a nice cot!


----------



## Tigger

Bullets said:


> We have both the stryker and ferno power cots. The strykers are miles better, lighter easier to move over surfaces and less top heavy. This looks twice as bad.
> 
> I also dont see how you dont have to support one end when you go down stairs with this thing. If you watch the video the back wheels are in the air and only the front are on the ground, so you still have to support it.
> 
> Once again, Ferno is late to the game with a heavier piece of equipment.
> 
> A shame, considering the 35-A is a classic EMS cot and i love ours



I think you have to support it coming downstairs, but it loads itself into the ambulance for 10k less...


----------



## Handsome Robb

Bullets said:


> We have both the stryker and ferno power cots. The strykers are miles better, lighter easier to move over surfaces and less top heavy. This looks twice as bad.
> 
> I also dont see how you dont have to support one end when you go down stairs with this thing. If you watch the video the back wheels are in the air and only the front are on the ground, so you still have to support it.
> 
> Once again, Ferno is late to the game with a heavier piece of equipment.
> 
> A shame, considering the 35-A is a classic EMS cot and i love ours



I don't see why you couldn't pull up to the stairs if they're not super long and lower the catch wheels onto the ground like the back of the rig then let it lift itself.

I've never used a Ferno cot, hell I've never used Ferno anything.


----------



## GoldcrossEMTbasic

Robb said:


> I don't see why you couldn't pull up to the stairs if they're not super long and lower the catch wheels onto the ground like the back of the rig then let it lift itself.
> 
> I've never used a Ferno cot, hell I've never used Ferno anything.



"You can never get carried away with SAFETY!"


----------



## Aidey

Robb said:


> I don't see why you couldn't pull up to the stairs if they're not super long and lower the catch wheels onto the ground like the back of the rig then let it lift itself.
> 
> I've never used a Ferno cot, hell I've never used Ferno anything.



That is what we do, works like a charm. Also effective off the side of a porch if there is no railing.


----------



## Zmedic107

This ferno weighs 170 lb?! you must be kidding me...IMO: i would think an X frame would handle the weight better than this h frame.  Also, what if the battery dies? no siderails anymore? what about an MCI and you need to load this into another rig, but doesn't have their ferno track? it looks like the pram needs to go extremely high to load a patient (top heavy!).

Stryker has been the proven technology time and time again...ferno, not so much. i'll stick with what has saved my career Power-PRO & Power-LOAD.


----------



## KELRAG

I didn't personally see it in use but our department got a demo with what I think this video is showing and my coworkers were really impressed.  Apparently the ferno rep did dips with the stretcher fully extended out the back and it was solid.  From what I heard this product has been in the works for years but kept getting pushed back for design issues.  I am very skeptical of anything this company develops.  We have both ferno manual and stryker manual stretchers.  The strykers are firefighter proof, the ferno stretchers have to be the most dangerous stretchers known to man.


----------



## Tigger

KELRAG said:


> I didn't personally see it in use but our department got a demo with what I think this video is showing and my coworkers were really impressed.  Apparently the ferno rep did dips with the stretcher fully extended out the back and it was solid.  From what I heard this product has been in the works for years but kept getting pushed back for design issues.  I am very skeptical of anything this company develops.  We have both ferno manual and stryker manual stretchers.  The strykers are firefighter proof, *the ferno stretchers have to be the most dangerous stretchers known to man.*



How so? Also what model?


----------



## KELRAG

Tigger said:


> How so? Also what model?



I dont know what model but it is their newest self-loading power stretcher.  

The design issues I am talking about are with their older, manual stretchers.  When lifting the stretcher from ground level, both people pull to chest height and the wheel base is supposed to drop and lock.  This rarely happens.  The person at the foot can adjust their handle lower to help with ergonomics but the person at the head has to lift a considerable distance.  Usually, the bottom does not fall into position and the person at the head will push the bottom with their foot.  While we were harshly lectured by the Ferno rep for doing this, it is almost always necessary.  Pushing the base with your foot can push the base out the other side, into the person who is positioned at the foot's knee.  This also drops the patient.  Further, to get the patient in load postion is a challenge for all other than crossfit junkies.  The rep came out and showed us the "proper" medthod for these processes and explained how easy it actualy is.  My buddy actually asked the rep if we were in trouble by the way he was talking to us ( I realize this isnt directly a problem with the stretcher design but I think this guy is tired of hearing how bad these stretchers are).  It would be as is a gunmaker produced a pistol that had to be fired with perfect hand placement or it would shoot the owner.  

My biggest problem with this stretcher is that it requires a specific techinique to operate and ANY deviation can have serious consequences including injury to providers and patients.  We have dropped several patients and had many near misses.  The Strykers are almost firefighter proof.  We can try to operate them in anyway possible and they do not pose a risk to the patient of provider.  

I am open to seeing what their power stretcher/load system is but I will be forever cautious of a company that produces such an irresponsible product.


----------



## Kevinf

Our company got a demo of it as well, sadly I was not working that day. From what I hear the crews that got to play with it were very impressed. The price tag seems astronomical however, I'm hearing $30,000 to $40,000 _for a stretcher_. It's in pre-production and if we were to order it in June we wouldn't have it until August.

The crew that demo'd it put three people on top and loaded it without effort.


----------



## usalsfyre

KELRAG said:


> I dont know what model but it is their newest self-loading power stretcher.
> 
> The design issues I am talking about are with their older, manual stretchers.  When lifting the stretcher from ground level, both people pull to chest height and the wheel base is supposed to drop and lock.  This rarely happens.  The person at the foot can adjust their handle lower to help with ergonomics but the person at the head has to lift a considerable distance.  Usually, the bottom does not fall into position and the person at the head will push the bottom with their foot.  While we were harshly lectured by the Ferno rep for doing this, it is almost always necessary.  Pushing the base with your foot can push the base out the other side, into the person who is positioned at the foot's knee.  This also drops the patient.  Further, to get the patient in load postion is a challenge for all other than crossfit junkies.  The rep came out and showed us the "proper" medthod for these processes and explained how easy it actualy is.  My buddy actually asked the rep if we were in trouble by the way he was talking to us ( I realize this isnt directly a problem with the stretcher design but I think this guy is tired of hearing how bad these stretchers are).  It would be as is a gunmaker produced a pistol that had to be fired with perfect hand placement or it would shoot the owner.
> 
> My biggest problem with this stretcher is that it requires a specific techinique to operate and ANY deviation can have serious consequences including injury to providers and patients.  We have dropped several patients and had many near misses.  The Strykers are almost firefighter proof.  We can try to operate them in anyway possible and they do not pose a risk to the patient of provider.
> 
> I am open to seeing what their power stretcher/load system is but I will be forever cautious of a company that produces such an irresponsible product.



The problems you note are present on Stryker H frames as well. It's an inherent flaw to the H frame design.


----------



## KELRAG

usalsfyre said:


> The problems you note are present on Stryker H frames as well. It's an inherent flaw to the H frame design.



We must have a newer stryker model because these problems arent on ours.   Your comment does make me dislike ferno a little less. MOre than anything I have a problem with either of the companies selling a product that is this dangerous.


----------



## GoldcrossEMTbasic

:rofl:Thats Crazy 30,000 dollars. Now I can see why my past Ambulance bill was almost 2,000 dollars. :angry:


----------



## Handsome Robb

The stryker power pro is obnoxiously simple to use. I'ver never used ferno gurneys but don't they make an X frame too or only the H frame? It seems like an X frame gurney wouldn't be difficult to design for safe operation but maybe I'm wrong. 

I don't really see this new stretcher having those problems since it is a power stretcher but who knows.

They're not 30-40 I thought it wads closer to 20 which is cheaper or around the same as the stryker powerpro and powerload combo. Your ambulance bill being expensive has more to do with those who don't pay for services rendered than cost of the equipment but it does have some weight in it.


----------



## GoldcrossEMTbasic

That is quite understandable Robb! We get the long end of the deal when other people don't pay for services or when some call 911 for little things like a toothache and other illnesses that are not necessary for EMS to get dispatched to.:rofl: its just ludacrist!


----------



## Tigger

Robb said:


> The stryker power pro is obnoxiously simple to use. I'ver never used ferno gurneys but don't they make an X frame too or only the H frame? It seems like an X frame gurney wouldn't be difficult to design for safe operation but maybe I'm wrong.
> 
> I don't really see this new stretcher having those problems since it is a power stretcher but who knows.
> 
> They're not 30-40 I thought it wads closer to 20 which is cheaper or around the same as the stryker powerpro and powerload combo. Your ambulance bill being expensive has more to do with those who don't pay for services rendered than cost of the equipment but it does have some weight in it.



My old place had brand new Ferno X frame manual cots, worked just as well as manual strykers I thought.


----------



## GoldcrossEMTbasic

*Strkyer cots*

Where I was assigned to my ride alongs, they just started to use the STRYKER cots with the buttons on the head end to raise all four legs on the cot and POC and Trendelenburg positions too. I like them. Actually the ambulance agency got the Strykers from, is HCMC in the Twin Cities. They were donated to them and I think HCMC swapped them out for new cots. I don't know off hand if HCMC switched to Ferno or back to STRYKER. I asked the paramedic and EMT-B on duty while on ride alongs if I can try it out and learn how to place the cot in the rig. However, in my classroom training we did not have a ambulance or a mock ambulance to learn how to move cots in and out of a rig.  However, the STRYKER  was user friendly and it saves on the back and less stress on the patient. The cot just slips into the locking mechanism without any problems. Nice equipment. "expensive!" Yes indeed, "but well worth it!"


----------



## Tigger

The one we demoed had both rails and a manual operation mode...


----------



## Tigger

We operated it manually with the a patient...

And if you're people are struggling to push the lit up green button I don't know what to say. 

You're experienced in no way mirror mine and seem rather dramatic. And this is coming from a Stryker liker so to speak.


----------



## Jake Jones

emt4lifes said:


> You cannot operate it manually with a patient - you have to take the patient off. Then you have to lift all 190 lbs. from the ground up! It's also crazy hard to operate. I run with a volunteer department and I doubt half the people could figure it out. The Stryker is easier to use and more "firefighter proof". It has no bariatric option also. You can't get it wet either. The ferno rep ran it up in the air and jumped on it. We never transport that high so thats a null point. It is really unstable while loading and the rep would barely let us use it. If my department purchases one of these I will flip out!




This is incorrect on so many levels it's hard to believe.  either your blindfully following stryker or work for them...

1 - you can operate it in manual mode with a patient on it, we did it at our agency
2 - you do not have to lift any weight from the inx at all throughout the entire process ... seriously, i've seen videos of kids loading it from ferno's page
3 - there are two buttons to operate...a + and a - ... if you've ever used a powered stretcher or can remember two buttons you can use it..again ive seen kids load it on first try
4 - you can wash it with a hose...how can you not get it wet?  dumb
5 - our rep did the same deal with putting it as high as he could..it was meant to show stability even at it's most vulnerable point
6 - everyone in our station got to load it...no idea what your talking about for unstable


----------



## Ewok Jerky

looks cool.  

thats all.


----------



## Meursault

Anyone see that little jog in the beginning? Just a little marker of how disconnected from EMS that ad is.
This has the true hallmark of modern Ferno designs: failure-prone features *no one asked for*. "Hey, I've never heard of a flashlight. What if we put lights on our stretcher and ran them off the battery we need to lift this 78 kg monstrosity?" "Brilliant! Here's my prototype of an IV pole; it can fall right off, and not only that, but other crews can steal it without tools!" (in unison) "WHEEL LOCKS!"
It also looks pretty high when loaded: not a problem in a Sprinter, but I've had clearance issues loading higher stretchers with upright patients into Type IIs and some box builds. 
The manual release looks awful, both based on location and because I can't figure out how it even works by looking at it and they haven't posted the manual. Oh, and did I mention it's over twice the weight of a 35-A? Have fun holding that up while your partner figures out which way the legs fold.



Kevinf said:


> So we called FD for an _intrication_ assist.


Stealing that.


----------



## Tigger

It doesn't need to be that high to load. Just high enough to hook it like any other cot. To load it in our Type Is it has to be at a maximum height. 
I was skeptical at first but I really do see it as an improvement.


----------



## TraprMike

exodus said:


> This doesn't look useful at all. It looks bulky, heavy, and like a pain to use.  Now you will have to wait and hold up for two legs to come down when loading and unloading.  Same thing going down a few steps of stairs. We cont have problems with 2 or 3 stairs. It's the big stairs we do.
> 
> I do like the idea of lights on it though, extra visibility is always good.



We ordered on last summer and delivery is after the first of the year. we are happy for this power cot. and as for "wait and hold up for two legs to come down", no issue. as you will not be holding any weight while the legs go up and down.  We had a demo and super easy.  we had the smallest EMT load the biggest guy 275# and it was a one handed job for her.


----------



## Jake Jones

TraprMike said:


> We ordered on last summer and delivery is after the first of the year. we are happy for this power cot. and as for "wait and hold up for two legs to come down", no issue. as you will not be holding any weight while the legs go up and down.  We had a demo and super easy.  we had the smallest EMT load the biggest guy 275# and it was a one handed job for her.



we had the same thing...smallest female in our agency loaded 325 pound medic.  never held the weight at all and could do it with one hand if needed to...


----------

