# EMT shoves cop out of ambulance, gets arrested



## ExpatMedic0 (Apr 3, 2013)

I kind of agree with the medic here, of he course he should not have touched the police officer... but i think the LEO's actions before and after where  worse.
http://www.ems1.com/fire-ems/articles/1426275-EMT-shoves-cop-out-of-ambulance-gets-arrested/


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## DrParasite (Apr 3, 2013)

just to argue from the other side of the coin, what should he have done?  He asked him to leave and do his job, and the officer refused, and the patient needed a 12 lead (or so I am assuming based on the fact that one was done).

If the roles were reversed, do you think the officer would have hessitated to use force to remove the EMT from the ambulance, or a police vehicle?

While this is embarrassment for both agencies, I think the cops will side with the cops (and deny all wrongdoing), and the EMTs will side with the paramedics (and deny all wrongdoing).


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## WuLabsWuTecH (Apr 3, 2013)

I don't know what the law is in NY, but in everywhere I've worked, the order of control of a scene is fire>ems>cops assuming the scene is secured.

If a cop refuses an order to get out of the truck or let me shut the doors, then it's a misdemeanor interfering with emergency operations.

That being said, I would NEVER put my hands on a cop I didn't know unless he was about to fall or I was about to fall.  Fortunately, I know most of the LEOs I work with, and pulling on their shirts, or pushing their shoulders so I can get somewhere and saying, "Hey! C'mon now! You're in my way!" is usually met with a low voiced, dumbfounded, "Oh... Sorry..."


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## ExpatMedic0 (Apr 3, 2013)

In my own biased opinion, I say "good for the medic."


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## abckidsmom (Apr 3, 2013)

I only had to drive away from a scene with the cop in my ambulance once for them to respect the "we are leaving now, you riding with us?"

An hour to the hospital, it's not really on their list of things to do.


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## Handsome Robb (Apr 3, 2013)

WuLabsWuTecH said:


> I don't know what the law is in NY, but in everywhere I've worked, the order of control of a scene is fire>ems>cops assuming the scene is secured.
> 
> If a cop refuses an order to get out of the truck or let me shut the doors, then it's a misdemeanor interfering with emergency operations.
> 
> That being said, I would NEVER put my hands on a cop I didn't know unless he was about to fall or I was about to fall.  Fortunately, I know most of the LEOs I work with, and pulling on their shirts, or pushing their shoulders so I can get somewhere and saying, "Hey! C'mon now! You're in my way!" is usually met with a low voiced, dumbfounded, "Oh... Sorry..."



:censored::censored::censored::censored: that, if its a medical call it's my scene, fire and pd can bite me. Medical call, paramedic is in charge.

Don't put your hands on cops. Be polite with them and explain your reasoning, if they don't listen call for a supervisor or start driving like Dana said. That'll get your point across real quickly.


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## epipusher (Apr 3, 2013)

I wonder as well if "shove" is an exaggerated word from the police side. Sounds to me this is something that should have been handled after the fact.


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## mycrofft (Apr 3, 2013)

DrParasite said:


> just to argue from the other side of the coin, what should he have done?  He asked him to leave and do his job, and the officer refused, and the patient needed a 12 lead (or so I am assuming based on the fact that one was done).
> 
> If the roles were reversed, do you think the officer would have hessitated to use force to remove the EMT from the ambulance, or a police vehicle?
> 
> While this is embarrassment for both agencies, I think the cops will side with the cops (and deny all wrongdoing), and the EMTs will side with the paramedics (and deny all wrongdoing).



The roles should never be reversed. Not a factor. Might ask what if a grizzly bear appeared.

I agree with yuor prognostication for the outcome. Truth falls first.


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## mycrofft (Apr 3, 2013)

Loudly in front of witnesses ask "Are you taking medical control of this scene?!". If he says yes, state "I need your name and medical license level and number!" and pull out a note pad. Usually they fold at question #1, whether it's LE, bystanders, obstrepterous co-workers...


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## DesertMedic66 (Apr 3, 2013)

We have had issues like this in my county before. At least for our AMAs our policy says to never interfere with LEOs.


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## Martyn (Apr 3, 2013)

abckidsmom said:


> I only had to drive away from a scene with the cop in my ambulance once for them to respect the "we are leaving now, you riding with us?"
> 
> An hour to the hospital, it's not really on their list of things to do.


 
Nice   :rofl:


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## WuLabsWuTecH (Apr 3, 2013)

Robb said:


> :censored::censored::censored::censored: that, if its a medical call it's my scene, fire and pd can bite me. Medical call, paramedic is in charge.
> 
> Don't put your hands on cops. Be polite with them and explain your reasoning, if they don't listen call for a supervisor or start driving like Dana said. That'll get your point across real quickly.



Well if you are *explitiving* the law, expect to end up in court or jail...

The chain of command is there until what each one's duty is done is done.  So at an MVA, they are a victim first and then once the car is stabilized or the patient is extracted, they are turned over to us.  Once we are done, we turn over the scene to PD.  If you are running into an accident scene when fire tells you not to, you're might end up not going home that night...

The exception is anything that we're staging on so PD goes in first, but we're not really actually there yet since we're staging and when they call us in they are releasing scene control to us.

In any case, it really should not be us vs them.  Learn to work together and your scenes will go a lot more smoother.  We have a VERY GOOD working relationship with our PD and FIRE and it makes things go very smoothly when we're all on a scene and we've never had an issue with "who's in charge?" on a scene because of this.


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## DrParasite (Apr 3, 2013)

Robb said:


> :censored::censored::censored::censored: that, if its a medical call it's my scene, fire and pd can bite me. Medical call, paramedic is in charge.


yeah and when you end up in handcuffs (like quite a few fire chiefs and this paramedic did for various reasons at emergency scenes) please make ssure you tell that to the officer.





mycrofft said:


> The roles should never be reversed. Not a factor. Might ask what if a grizzly bear appeared.


With all due respect, a police officer should always follow the directions of the paramedic, when dealing with a medical issue, and no laws have been broken.  And if you think the cop would have nicely asked the EMT (or anyone) to leave, and if told no, would have simply repeated his request until a supervisor got there, than I have a bridge to sell you in brooklyn.  He would have escalated the situation up to using force and punitive measures until the situation was resolved to his liking.

Based on what I can surmise, this is all a simple case of contempt of cop.  Paramedic asked the cop to leave (with good reason), to perform a medical procedure giving the patient some privacy.  Cop said no, and the situation escalated (and no, I don't think the cop was seriously hurt, but his pride was insulted).  I doubt the cop was hurt but "I'm not going to let any paramedic push me around, I'm going to arrest him and charge him with something."


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## Household6 (Apr 3, 2013)

DrParasite said:


> Based on what I can surmise, this is all a simple case of contempt of cop.  Paramedic asked the cop to leave (with good reason), to perform a medical procedure giving the patient some privacy.  Cop said no, and the situation escalated (and no, I don't think the cop was seriously hurt, but his pride was insulted).  I doubt the cop was hurt but "I'm not going to let any paramedic push me around, I'm going to arrest him and charge him with something."



That's sure what it seems like to me. A simple case of the butthurts... 

I learned back in my teenage years that anytime you argue with a cop, you're wrong... Doesn't matter if you're right.. You're always wrong when you try to argue with a cop.. And you're always the one to end up in handcuffs..


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## Handsome Robb (Apr 3, 2013)

DrParasite said:


> yeah and when you end up in handcuffs (like quite a few fire chiefs and this paramedic did for various reasons at emergency scenes) please make ssure you tell that to the officer.



I will absolutely tell them that, I've done it on the past.

You agreed with me with the quite below. Not once did I say become confrontational with the officer. Request he or she leaves, if they don't comply request they leave again, explain your reasoning as to why you need them to leave and get a second officer involved to hopefully talk some sense into the first one. If they still don't comply, request a supervisor and inform him/her that if they do not leave action will be taken against them and that a supervisor is on the way to handle the issue and continue with your patient care. 

Patient privacy laws still apply to LEOs. If the patient doesn't want them there and there's no reason for them to be present during the assessment (only reason I can see is crew safety) then they have no right to be there and must leave when asked. Being a cop doesn't make them above the law.

But I'm sure I'll end up in handcuffs at some point since I'm a patient advocate and don't let police abuse their power on *MY* scene. 



> a police officer should always follow the directions of the paramedic, when dealing with a medical issue, and no laws have been broken.



Wow...that's exactly what I said! Still not sure how it came down to me ending up in handcuffs. Y'all must really have interdepartmental drama if PD or FD is trying to run the scene on a medical call. Our LEOs never give us problems unless you approach them in a confrontational matter.

They know if their *** gets injured we're the ones taking care of them so they treat us like kings and queens. Unless there's a safety issue EMS comes before LE stuff here.


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## Handsome Robb (Apr 3, 2013)

WuLabsWuTecH said:


> Well if you are *explitiving* the law, expect to end up in court or jail...
> 
> The chain of command is there until what each one's duty is done is done.  So at an MVA, they are a victim first and then once the car is stabilized or the patient is extracted, they are turned over to us.  Once we are done, we turn over the scene to PD.  If you are running into an accident scene when fire tells you not to, you're might end up not going home that night...
> 
> ...



Again, you're not reading what I'm saying. 

We're talking about a purely medical call in this thread. That cop had no right to be in the ambulance during the patient assessment. 

We also have excellent working relationships with PD and fire the most part with FD. I've asked cops to leave before and they've complied every time. Like I said, purely medical call Emergency *Medical * Services are in charge. 

I agree, we're all on the same team but if PD or FD isn't cooperating and things that need to be done are getting done because of interference from FD or PD the medic needs to step in and put their foot down and advocate for their patient. In the end, patient advocacy is our job and if I have to wear some silver bracelets for a while to make sure the patient gets what they need that's something I'm willing to deal with because we all know those charges will never stick unless you do something wrong.


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## Achilles (Apr 3, 2013)

Robb said:


> I will absolutely tell them that, I've done it on the past.
> 
> You agreed with me with the quite below. Not once did I say become confrontational with the officer. Request he or she leaves, if they don't comply request they leave again, explain your reasoning as to why you need them to leave and get a second officer involved to hopefully talk some sense into the first one. If they still don't comply, request a supervisor and inform him/her that if they do not leave action will be taken against them and that a supervisor is on the way to handle the issue and continue with your patient care.
> 
> ...


What about a county jail or prison?


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## WuLabsWuTecH (Apr 3, 2013)

Robb said:


> Again, you're not reading what I'm saying.
> 
> We're talking about a purely medical call in this thread. That cop had no right to be in the ambulance during the patient assessment.
> 
> ...



And such is the hazard of armchair quarterbacking--I didn't get from the story that the call was purely medical--there was an assault after all, but we don't know what degree the patient was involved in.  But you and I are actually saying the same thing.  At least in my state Fire>EMS>Cops.  So in this situation, unless the patient was in custody, I'm in charge of the scene.  And if the patient is in custody, I'm still in charge of the scene, but the cop has the right to remove the patient from my scene.


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## mycrofft (Apr 3, 2013)

Two shots...
1. "according to a source"...that shoots the story to hell. "Mr. A.Source" said the issue was the officer seeing the patient's chest. What bullrot. Obviously you don't talk to an EKG patient because the EKG is affected, and treatment can be delayed.

2. Anytime anyone in the responding force is getting arrested, shoved or whatever, people need to get a grip and on-scene commanders need to get in there. Unprofessional. You are going to delay and degrade care more by spending time arguing and being arrested or duking it out in front of taxpayers than even just dialing or radioing Command to straighten it out.


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