# Hazard Pay



## RocketMedic (Mar 21, 2020)

So I know it’s a tender moment with the economy shutting down and everything, but here’s a question: at what point does the hazardous pay discussion need to be had, both for EMS and the healthcare industry?

We’ve got massive shortages of critical equipment.

We’re all working, or soon to be, WAY outside of our levels of familiarity, training and safety.
And we’re doing it in the context of a viral, lethal pandemic that is killing healthcare providers disturbingly frequently.

so, when is this discussion OK?


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## mgr22 (Mar 21, 2020)

I think discussion is always ok. What I'm asking myself is, would hazard pay solve any of the issues you highlighted, make me and my family safer, make anyone else any safer, or even help me feel better about being in EMS at a time like this? Probably not.


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## NomadicMedic (Mar 21, 2020)

It’s not.


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## CALEMT (Mar 21, 2020)

Nuff' said. 





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=344083333200822


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## RocketMedic (Mar 21, 2020)

NomadicMedic said:


> It’s not.


Why not though? Why even be paid at all in this time of hardship?

Also wanted to mention that fellow paramedics in California and Oklahoma are reported to be in critical condition, on ECMO, as a consequence of COVID-19 infection. So there’s that.
I’m not saying it needs to be immediate, but I am saying that there definitely appears to be hazards looming that are extraordinary.


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## NomadicMedic (Mar 21, 2020)

We teach PPE use in every EMT class. Not just for fun, but because you need to use it to protect yourself.

In my view, it’s  incredibly naive for any EMS provider to think they would never come in contact with potentially infectious people or material. And ridiculous to expect that when it happens, demand more money.

Quite simply, taking care of sick people is part of the job.


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## NomadicMedic (Mar 21, 2020)

And as for not being paid at all... we are furloughing officestaff and wheelchair van drivers due to lack of work.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 21, 2020)

NomadicMedic said:


> We teach PPE use in every EMT class. Not just for fun, but because you need to use it to protect yourself.
> 
> In my view, it’s  incredibly naive for any EMS provider to think they would never come in contact with potentially infectious people or material. And ridiculous to expect that when it happens, demand more money.
> 
> Quite simply, taking care of sick people is part of the job.


But by that same token, PARTICULARLY when the PPE supplies are inadequate and what’s being used is out of its performance envelope, AND in the viral light of an extraordinary pandemic, is that an extraordinary hazard?


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## DesertMedic66 (Mar 21, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> Also wanted to mention that fellow paramedics in California are reported to be in critical condition, on ECMO, as a consequence of COVID-19 infection.


That is news to the vast majority of California clinicians.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 21, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> So I know it’s a tender moment with the economy shutting down and everything, but here’s a question: at what point does the hazardous pay discussion need to be had, both for EMS and the healthcare industry?
> 
> We’ve got massive shortages of critical equipment.
> 
> ...



It's a fair question, but once you start providing it for one group, other groups are going to feel like they should receive it too (and a lot more groups than you probably realize).  Where will the money come from?


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## NomadicMedic (Mar 21, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> But by that same token, PARTICULARLY when the PPE supplies are inadequate and what’s being used is out of its performance envelope, AND in the viral light of an extraordinary pandemic, is that an extraordinary hazard?



No. Do your job.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 21, 2020)

NomadicMedic said:


> No. Do your job.


So are you going to keep doing yours if the lethality rate hits 5%? 10%? If you are told to use a bandana and go without gloves?

Is your position absolute, or relative?
And are you a practicing field provider, or an administrator who plays at Paramedicine?


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## E tank (Mar 21, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> Why not though? Why even be paid at all in this time of hardship?
> 
> Also wanted to mention that fellow paramedics in California and Oklahoma are reported to be in critical condition, on ECMO, as a consequence of COVID-19 infection. So there’s that.



Who is reporting  COVID-19 patients being on ecmo currently?


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## RocketMedic (Mar 21, 2020)

ffemt8978 said:


> It's a fair question, but once you start providing it for one group, other groups are going to feel like they should receive it too (and a lot more groups than you probably realize).  Where will the money come from?


That is a problem for society. The way I see it though, we’re about to be asking a whole lot of a  small group of people and those people are going to be facing some pretty extraordinary and extreme dangers to their health, and the first few paramedics who die for $17 an hour or EMTs who die for $10/hour are going to provoke some serious and significant discussions across EMS. Same for CNAs, RN, etc.

@NomadicMedic might ride the noble steed of ideas and optimism, but me? I’m a mercenary to some extent. There’s gotta be something in it for me if we’re going to do this for a long time without proper training, equipment, etc, or if the risk gets to be more than it is. That calculation is dynamic, especially if social support networks get good enough one could plausibly maintain a standard of living by staying home and welfare-ing it up.
I’ve done some deeply dangerous things for the USA and people before, but if I’d have gotten shot or blown up, there’s care there. Lifetime pension, disability, etc. SGLI, even. Police and firefighters generally have pretty robust personal injury protections. EMS usually doesn’t. And if it becomes a matter of “when”, not “if”, because the NomadicMedics and other leaders of your EMS agency can’t supply you with the things you need to do your job safely:..new hazard introduced. Ergo, hazard pay. It’s not necessarily just hourly pay either though. Housing, fuel, food, child care, pensions, disability, etc, are all on the table.
It is highly stupid to simply assume that willingness to “help someone” under normal circumstances translates to a mandate to go into a potentially-deadly situation on the regular, btw. Maybe a few will. But most of us will recalculate.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 21, 2020)

E tank said:


> Who is reporting  COVID-19 patients being on ecmo currently?


Trusted acquaintances. HIPAA is making it hard to gather data.


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## NomadicMedic (Mar 21, 2020)

Is the CFR going to hit 10%? No. It'll most likely stay right around 3%, where it's been from the very beginning.

I won't work without gloves. Neither should you. That's a very different statement from asking if you should get more money because you venture into harm's way.

My system has appropriate PPE and thanks to strategic stockpiling and allocations from the state, we expect to stay in decent shape.

Are we going to reuse N-95 masks? Yes, following the CDC guidelines. (https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/hcwcontrols/recommendedguidanceextuse.html)

Am I a field paramedic? Yep. Sure am. I am also an administrator with responsibilities to the public, my employees and the board of directors.
Balancing these responsibilities is difficult. If you were actually in a leadership position instead of sniping from the back row, you would understand this.

Our mandate is simple: We will continue to respond to the public in the safest and most expedient way possible. We will continue utillize to guidelines and policies that have been put in place to protect and provide clear expectations for our staff on safety and operations and we will be responsible to the board of directors while managing our fiscal obligations.

I would never expect a provider to go into the field and work with anything less than the recommended PPE. But just because there are sick people and there is risk doesn't automatically indicate "hazard pay" for performing a job that provides adequate protection, education on its use and clear policies that mandate how and when to use it.

Sorry. It's not going to fly with me. Go peddle your papers somewhere else.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 21, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> That is a problem for society. The way I see it though, we’re about to be asking a whole lot of a  small group of people and those people are going to be facing some pretty extraordinary and extreme dangers to their health, and the first few paramedics who die for $17 an hour or EMTs who die for $10/hour are going to provoke some serious and significant discussions across EMS. Same for CNAs, RN, etc.
> 
> @NomadicMedic might ride the noble steed of ideas and optimism, but me? I’m a mercenary to some extent. There’s gotta be something in it for me if we’re going to do this for a long time without proper training, equipment, etc, or if the risk gets to be more than it is. That calculation is dynamic, especially if social support networks get good enough one could plausibly maintain a standard of living by staying home and welfare-ing it up.
> I’ve done some deeply dangerous things for the USA and people before, but if I’d have gotten shot or blown up, there’s care there. Lifetime pension, disability, etc. SGLI, even. Police and firefighters generally have pretty robust personal injury protections. EMS usually doesn’t. And if it becomes a matter of “when”, not “if”, because the NomadicMedics and other leaders of your EMS agency can’t supply you with the things you need to do your job safely:..new hazard introduced. Ergo, hazard pay. It’s not necessarily just hourly pay either though. Housing, fuel, food, child care, pensions, disability, etc, are all on the table.
> It is highly stupid to simply assume that willingness to “help someone” under normal circumstances translates to a mandate to go into a potentially-deadly situation on the regular, btw. Maybe a few will. But most of us will recalculate.



So you want hazard pay but have decided it is for others to determine where the money for it comes from.  Others working in critically necessary professions make less than a medic and sometimes less than an EMT, deal with more people on a daily basis, and do so with less PPE and training (i.e. the employees at your local grocery stores).  Are you suggesting they should receive hazard pay too?


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## RocketMedic (Mar 21, 2020)

Go look at Italy and tell me what happens when your world looks like that. “We expect”...bro, you’re already reusing masks. Pretty soon it’ll be reusing everything, same as we are. And then one or two of your people will get sick, and this discussion will return. And guidelines? In the last week we’ve seen those change from “every encounter toss it” to “maybe a bandana will work” from the CDC. How about you go try that in Wuhan?
Pandemics are extraordinary circumstances and might justify that pay. You’re pretty clearly an absolutist who opposes the very concept and I’m glad I will never work with you if you’re so close minded as to be unable to articulate any reasonable point for hazard pay.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 21, 2020)

ffemt8978 said:


> So you want hazard pay but have decided it is for others to determine where the money for it comes from.  Others working in critically necessary professions make less than a medic and sometimes less than an EMT, deal with more people on a daily basis, and do so with less PPE and training (i.e. the employees at your local grocery stores).  Are you suggesting they should receive hazard pay too?


Yes, they absolutely should. And when they start leaving their jobs in frustration, fear and for reasons of illness, the market will be forced to try to earn them back with higher wages.
Hazard pay for particularly hazardous tasks is a hallmark of the military, which is quite literally a solemn legal obligation voluntarily entered into without knowledge of potential hazards. So @Nomadicmedic’s thing doesn’t really fly...if the Army pays you more for duty in a hazardous zone despite the fact that you can die CONUS, you should be paid more for working during a viral pandemic.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 21, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> Yes, they absolutely should. And when they start leaving their jobs in frustration, fear and for reasons of illness, the market will be forced to try to earn them back with higher wages.



So where do you draw the line at which groups should receive this pay?

And based upon what happened in the markets where minimum wage went up significantly (reduced hours, reduced benefits, reduced employees), earning employees back with higher wages may not work.   The same for government bailouts...the money has to come from somewhere, and until that can be determined, the entire concept is a moot point.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 21, 2020)

Me personally? I would draw the line at public contact.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 21, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> Me personally? I would draw the line at public contact.



Almost every job has some form of public contact...so that's not much of a delineating line.


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## Seirende (Mar 21, 2020)

ffemt8978 said:


> So you want hazard pay but have decided it is for others to determine where the money for it comes from.  Others working in critically necessary professions make less than a medic and sometimes less than an EMT, deal with more people on a daily basis, and do so with less PPE and training (i.e. the employees at your local grocery stores).  Are you suggesting they should receive hazard pay too?



All hourly employees got a two dollar an hour raise through the end of April at ALDI, the grocer that I work at. I'm finally making that fabled $15/hr.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 21, 2020)

Seirende said:


> All hourly employees got a two dollar an hour raise through the end of April at ALDI, the grocer that I work at. I'm finally making that fabled $15/hr.


So if Aldi can do it and identify who merits hazard pay...I mean “they knew what they signed up for. Do your job. Fiscally responsible to the stockholders/community”/Nomadicmode lol. Had to poke some fun at his silly position.
Seriously though, if you’re still actively working and employed right now, you’re assuming extraordinary hazards, no matter your field. That should be recognized. Maybe a tax holiday in lieu of pay raises?

except for Nomadic. Renumeration is extraneous. Do. Your. Job.

ROFL.


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## Seirende (Mar 21, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> So if Aldi can do it and identify who merits hazard pay...



Warehouse workers get it too, so it's not all about public contact. It's about the fact that we're having our butts handed to us trying to keep up with demand.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 21, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> So if Aldi can do it and identify who merits hazard pay...





Seirende said:


> Warehouse workers get it too, so it's not all about public contact. It's about the fact that we're having our butts handed to us trying to keep up with demand.



And how will ALDI pay for those *temporary* raises?  In the short term, they can probably absorb the costs out of their profit margins.  But at some point, they will have to recoup those costs by raising the prices of their products and making their customers pay more.  The same customers who may be at home and out of work with no money coming in.  So they spend their money on food at ALDI's, and let their medical insurance fall behind.  EMS gets called to treat a sick family member, and can't recoup their money from insurance or the patient.  So they will raise their rates on other patients in the hopes of recouping some of their losses.  Those patients may or may not have the means to pay those new inflated rates, leading the cycle to repeat itself.

I'm just trying to point out that there is more to this then thinking you deserve hazard pay for doing what is essentially you're job albeit on a much larger scale.  There are a lot of interconnected things that must be considered, as every economic action can have a ripple effect in what is often an unanticipated way.


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## Seirende (Mar 21, 2020)

ffemt8978 said:


> And how will ALDI pay for those *temporary* raises?  In the short term, they can probably absorb the costs out of their profit margins.  But at some point, they will have to recoup those costs by raising the prices of their products and making their customers pay more.  The same customers who may be at home and out of work with no money coming in.  So they spend their money on food at ALDI's, and let their medical insurance fall behind.  EMS gets called to treat a sick family member, and can't recoup their money from insurance or the patient.  So they will raise their rates on other patients in the hopes of recouping some of their losses.  Those patients may or may not have the means to pay those new inflated rates, leading the cycle to repeat itself.
> 
> I'm just trying to point out that there is more to this then thinking you deserve hazard pay for doing what is essentially you're job albeit on a much larger scale.  There are a lot of interconnected things that must be considered, as every economic action can have a ripple effect in what is often an unanticipated way.



I did the math once and they would have to raise prices like 1-2% at my store to give everyone a two dollar raise. You're talking about paying a dollar more for every hundred dollars you spend.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 21, 2020)

ffemt8978 said:


> And how will ALDI pay for those *temporary* raises?  In the short term, they can probably absorb the costs out of their profit margins.  But at some point, they will have to recoup those costs by raising the prices of their products and making their customers pay more.  The same customers who may be at home and out of work with no money coming in.  So they spend their money on food at ALDI's, and let their medical insurance fall behind.  EMS gets called to treat a sick family member, and can't recoup their money from insurance or the patient.  So they will raise their rates on other patients in the hopes of recouping some of their losses.  Those patients may or may not have the means to pay those new inflated rates, leading the cycle to repeat itself.
> 
> I'm just trying to point out that there is more to this then thinking you deserve hazard pay for doing what is essentially you're job albeit on a much larger scale.  There are a lot of interconnected things that must be considered, as every economic action can have a ripple effect in what is often an unanticipated way.



Im sure they’ll find a way. Especially because the costs of not paying appropriately can be pretty high too, I.e. out of business.

What would it take for you to demand hazard pay?


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 21, 2020)

Seirende said:


> I did the math once and they would have to raise prices like 1-2% at my store to give everyone a two dollar raise. You're talking about paying a dollar more for every hundred dollars you spend.



That's only for the outgoing side of it.  What happens to ALDI's costs and prices when the shippers and trucking companies have to be paid more for making and delivering those supplies?  You're 1-2% increase could now become a 3-5% increase.  Pretty significant inflation jump.


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## Seirende (Mar 21, 2020)

3-5% increase to pay people 7ish% more seems like pretty good math to me


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 21, 2020)

Seirende said:


> 3-5% increase to pay people 7ish% more seems like pretty good math to me



It is...unless you're the one paying the 3-5% increase without seeing the benefits of it.  Are you willing to pay 3-5% more on things like gas, utilities, insurance, car payments, etc...?


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## Seirende (Mar 21, 2020)

These are very rough numbers and I can't give any of them out, of course, but ALDI will have to continue raising wages to stay competitive considering our labor model.


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## Seirende (Mar 21, 2020)

ffemt8978 said:


> It is...unless you're the one paying the 3-5% increase without seeing the benefits of it.  Are you willing to pay 3-5% more on things like gas, utilities, insurance, car payments, etc...?



Hell yes, if the gas station attendant is making 7% more


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 21, 2020)

Seirende said:


> These are very rough numbers and I can't give any of them out, of course, but ALDI will have to continue raising wages to stay competitive considering our labor model.



I'm sure they will.  I'm just trying to remind everyone it's easy to demand things like more money, but a lot harder to come up with workable solutions for it.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 21, 2020)

ffemt8978 said:


> It is...unless you're the one paying the 3-5% increase without seeing the benefits of it.  Are you willing to pay 3-5% more on things like gas, utilities, insurance, car payments, etc...?


As opposed to the store closing because those people found better alternatives? Yep. Plus paying an extra few cents to meaningfully help someone is pretty ok. It’s even better business- look at Chick-fil-a vs McDonalds. 








						EMS workers expected to keep working after coronavirus exposure
					

Earlier this week, Christell Cadet was a healthy 34-year-old working as a paramedic in New York City. On Tuesday, she started having shortness of breath. By Wednesday, her symptoms were so severe she had to be hospitalized.




					www.cnn.com
				



Pretty sure FDNY didn’t sign up to get infected due to some new virus.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 21, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> As opposed to the store closing because those people found better alternatives? Yep. Plus paying an extra few cents to meaningfully help someone is pretty ok. It’s even better business- look at Chick-fil-a vs McDonalds.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As opposed to the store closing because their customers found a cheaper place to buy what they need?


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## CALEMT (Mar 21, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> Pretty sure FDNY didn’t sign up to get infected due to some new virus.



Nobody signs up to get infected by a virus. I sure as hell didn't sign up to get burnt on the job. Every job has a hazard, don't like it? McDonalds is always hiring as well as Starbucks.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 21, 2020)

ffemt8978 said:


> As opposed to the store closing because their customers found a cheaper place to buy what they need?



Theres always a floor, and if they’re willing to trade fresh, good and clean for Dollar General than more power to them. But I don’t think most will want to do that.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 21, 2020)

CALEMT said:


> Nobody signs up to get infected by a virus. I sure as hell didn't sign up to get burnt on the job. Every job has a hazard, don't like it? McDonalds is always hiring as well as Starbucks.


You also don’t work for 30-55k a year on 24/48s and enjoy the lifestyle of a firefighter so there’s that...and if you do get killed your family gets a decent payment correct?

I think my life insurance through work is like 60k. Whoo. And they’ll charge my family for treatment too.


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## Seirende (Mar 21, 2020)

ffemt8978 said:


> I'm sure they will.  I'm just trying to remind everyone it's easy to demand things like more money, but a lot harder to come up with workable solutions for it.



Pretty hard to come up with workable solutions to have a decent life on a low income too


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## CALEMT (Mar 21, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> You also don’t work for 30-55k a year on 24/48s and enjoy the lifestyle of a firefighter so there’s that...and if you do get killed your family gets a decent payment correct?
> 
> I think my life insurance through work is like 60k. Whoo. And they’ll charge my family for treatment too.



So my experience as a EMT and paramedic at a private EMS company doesn't account for anything? I don't hear people asking for hazard pay when they catch a cold from a patient.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 21, 2020)

CALEMT said:


> So my experience as a EMT and paramedic at a private EMS company doesn't account for anything? I don't hear people asking for hazard pay when they catch a cold from a patient.


Most common colds don’t put people in the ground 3% of the time.
This is a tweet from a guy I follow on Twitt
William Birdthistle (@WABirdthistle) Tweeted:
Please spare a thought or a prayer for @DavidLat and his family.  His mother reports that he has been intubated and is on a ventilator now. https://t.co/bOdaPseldw


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1241449677540728839
david is 44 and a reporter. He went from being fine to pneumonia to intubated. Does that sound normal to you?


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 21, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> You also don’t work for 30-55k a year on 24/48s and enjoy the lifestyle of a firefighter so there’s that...and if you do get killed your family gets a decent payment correct?
> 
> I think my life insurance through work is like 60k. Whoo. And they’ll charge my family for treatment too.



No, I work 70 hour weeks since that is what is allowed by the DOT/FMCSA.  And no, I don't get overtime.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 21, 2020)

This respiratory therapist treats coronavirus in New Orleans. He says the virus is a lot worse than you think.
					

As of Saturday, Louisiana was reporting nearly 600 confirmed cases of COVID-19, one of the highest numbers in the country. Sixteen people had died. The majority of cases are in




					www.nola.com
				




totally normal thing right here. Everyone signed up for it. You’ve got gloves, you’re fine. Do. Your. Job.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 21, 2020)

ffemt8978 said:


> No, I work 70 hour weeks since that is what is allowed by the DOT/FMCSA.  And no, I don't get overtime.


Trucking?


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## Seirende (Mar 21, 2020)

ffemt8978 said:


> As opposed to the store closing because their customers found a cheaper place to buy what they need?



ALDI pays their employees more  and has lower prices than anywhere else in town. You can find ways to stay competitive. And like I said, they're still going to have to raise wages to stay competitive in the labor market.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 21, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> Trucking?


Yes.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 21, 2020)

ffemt8978 said:


> Yes.


You’re a brave man, sir.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 21, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> You’re a brave man, sir.


Nope.  Just somebody trying to make a living doing a job that has to be done.  It has opened my eyes to supply chain economics and how changes can have far reaching effects.  That's why I'm busting your butt about hazard pay.  Im not against it per se, but want to see if you've really thought this through or are just saying you want EMS to get hazard pay.


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## FiremanMike (Mar 21, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> Most common colds don’t put people in the ground 3% of the time.
> This is a tweet from a guy I follow on Twitt
> William Birdthistle (@WABirdthistle) Tweeted:
> Please spare a thought or a prayer for @DavidLat and his family.  His mother reports that he has been intubated and is on a ventilator now. https://t.co/bOdaPseldw
> ...



3% of the people who were tested at the time that stat was pulled.. Which were the severely ill patients..  The majority of patients aren't becoming seriously ill.. So if you are one of the severely ill patients, yes you have a 3% chance of dying.

People need to f-ing stop promulgating this notion that if you get covid, you at a 3% chance of dying.  It's disingenuous fear mongering.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 21, 2020)

FiremanMike said:


> 3% of the people who were tested at the time that stat was pulled.. Which were the severely ill patients..  The majority of patients aren't becoming seriously ill.. So if you are one of the severely ill patients, yes you have a 3% chance of dying.
> 
> People need to f-ing stop promulgating this notion that if you get covid, you at a 3% chance of dying.  It's disingenuous fear mongering.


Agreed. It’s more than 3% for a large portion of our population. Italy is batting something like 10% of their hospitalized over-55s. I’m betting America, with our robust and accessible hospital network, easy-to-navigate healthcare infrastructure and strong coordination between all elements of the healthcare system will do exceptionally well at bettering this. 

@ffemt8978, I’ve put a lot of thought into it, and I think that recognizing and compensating people for hazardous duty beyond what we normally do is appropriate and will probably save costs in the long term as opposed to having to recruit and train new people who will likely demand more money and better conditions anyways.

except for @NomadicMedic. He’s just doing his Job.


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## FiremanMike (Mar 21, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> Agreed. It’s more than 3% for a large portion of our population. Italy is batting something like 10% of their hospitalized over-55s.
> 
> @ffemt8978, I’ve put a lot of thought into it, and I think that recognizing and compensating people for hazardous duty beyond what we normally do is appropriate and will probably save costs in the long term.
> 
> except for @NomadicMedic. He’s just doing his Job.



10% of their _hospitalized _patients.  The majority of patients who contract covid will *NOT* be hospitalized.  When you leave nuggets like that out there, it makes people think that if they get covid, they have a 10% chance of dying.

Like I said, it's disingenuous fear mongering, stop it.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 21, 2020)

FiremanMike said:


> 10% of their _hospitalized _patients.  The majority of patients who contract covid will *NOT* be hospitalized.  When you leave nuggets like that out there, it makes people think that if they get covid, they have a 10% chance of dying.
> 
> Like I said, it's disingenuous fear mongering, stop it.



Considering the expected spread of Covid through the population and the fact that most mildly-symptomatic people won’t get tested or even recognize they’re infected, it’s quite honest to say hospitalization is a 1/10 crapshoot.


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## FiremanMike (Mar 21, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> Considering the expected spread of Covid through the population and the fact that most mildly-symptomatic people won’t get tested or even recognize they’re infected, it’s quite honest to say hospitalization is a 1/10 crapshoot.



It's not honest until you can show statistics that we are currently seeing 10% the entire covid positive cohort has been hospitalized.

It's not even a little bit honest.

It's fear mongering.


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## FiremanMike (Mar 21, 2020)

To clarify- I mean the ENTIRE cohort, including those who have covid, but only have mild to moderate symptoms, and will not be hospitalized  or even tested (which is, as we know, the majority of the patients).

I'll give you a hint, that's probably a number we will NEVER quantify, because testing rates are so low right now they're being reserved for sicker patients.


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## GMCmedic (Mar 21, 2020)

Actually, in the US you have about a 1.5% chance of dying.

Beyond that, nobody forced anyone here to work in healthcare, and nobody is forcing you to stay. Half of the country would be happy to have an income at the moment.


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## SandpitMedic (Mar 21, 2020)

HAZARD pay?
No.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 21, 2020)

Can y’all explain your position?


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## FiremanMike (Mar 21, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> Can y’all explain your position?



Because this is our job.

Did you ask for hazard pay last flu season?


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## Seirende (Mar 21, 2020)

GMCmedic said:


> Actually, in the US you have about a 1.5% chance of dying.



That of course is going to be greatly affected by your individual risk factors. A 68 year old with severe COPD is going to be a bit higher risk than a healthy 26 year old.


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## GMCmedic (Mar 21, 2020)

FiremanMike said:


> Because this is our job.



This


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## GMCmedic (Mar 21, 2020)

Seirende said:


> That of course is going to be greatly affected by your individual risk factors. A 68 year old with severe COPD is going to be a bit higher risk than a healthy 26 year old.


Of course but its much easier to throw out an overall number.


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## Seirende (Mar 21, 2020)

GMCmedic said:


> Of course but its much easier to throw out an overall number.



In terms of what we're facing in the workforce I think our numbers are going to be lower.


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## Seirende (Mar 21, 2020)

A lot of super high risk people are retired or otherwise out of the public-facing workforce which is good news in terms of their risk of contracting an infection, as long as they don't have someone who has to be out in the public (say an EMS provider) spreading it to them.


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## Seirende (Mar 21, 2020)

I'm not scared of getting sick, because I'll probably be fine. I'm scared of spreading the virus and infecting someone who won't be so lucky.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 21, 2020)

Seirende said:


> I'm not scared of getting sick, because I'll probably be fine. I'm scared of spreading the virus and infecting someone who won't be so lucky.


This.


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## VFlutter (Mar 21, 2020)

E tank said:


> Who is reporting  COVID-19 patients being on ecmo currently?



There are centers in the US participating in the ECMOCARD study. We have had a couple presumed COVID-19 patients placed on ECMO in the past couple days.


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## Peak (Mar 21, 2020)

VFlutter said:


> There are centers in the US participating in the ECMOCARD study. We have had a couple presumed COVID-19 patients placed on ECMO in the past couple days.



I'm curious how the data will turn out. We use the 80 80 rule for neos through geriatrics, and I'm not sure how reversible the pathology is actually going to be for the extremely sick ARDS patient.


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## Rick813P (Mar 21, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> So I know it’s a tender moment with the economy shutting down and everything, but here’s a question: at what point does the hazardous pay discussion need to be had, both for EMS and the healthcare industry?
> 
> We’ve got massive shortages of critical equipment.
> 
> ...


This is a multi faceted question. First, I have been a Paramedic for 32 years. I have seen a lot of changes in my time. Some good, which includes a few OSHA regs. HIPPA, don’t get me started, and these computer programs that are set up for bean counters and statisticians, not those of us who work the street in services with heavy run volume trying to clear hospitals, and go home on time. (chuckle)
Now as far as working with shortage of equipment, I am with you there. It is like preparing for a tsunami in Louisville, Ky....where the hell did all that water come from, what do you mean Walmart is out of floaties, pool noodles, paper towels, and toilet paper. Sometimes you just don’t see it coming. But, sometimes you do but it’s a time problem. I am not getting into a political battle so I will leave it at this, someone needs to walk out to the mailbox at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave more often and check the mail. There might be a letter from some Chinese Doc in Whuhan  whose last words were,”GET READY THERES TSUNAMI COMING!!!.“
As far as dealing with this virus, our protocol called for apprise PPE when you deal with a possible communicable respiratory diseases. It also required you to wipe down the patient compartment  and cot after each run. Now that was pretty much the standard around the nation and Canada. We used the OSHA rules because we were a little lacking in original ideas. The 10,000 dollar question is what prompted, HIV, nope your wrong nice try, measles, nope that was eradicated that week. It wasn’t toe nail fungus, or severe crouch itch. Here is the answer, drum rollll, it was SARS !!!!. In case you did not know was another Corona type virus.  ( by the way it is called corona be cause looking at it through the microscope it has the little thingy stuff call proteins that make it look like a crown.) Oh, you don’t care, sorry. So if you have been following rules that were set out by OSHA, you really should be protected, oh yes, don’t forget to was your hands. Just another little piece of useless history, my first 10 years in EMS, the only gloves we had were in the OB, kit and they were, hehe, sterile. So how many of us did not really pay that much attention to all of those dumb rules.,🖐🤚🖐🖐, one of those hands is mine. They don’t seem so dumb now. 
On a serious note, I retired a short time ago, I was paying to go to work, compared to my retirement. I would have continued to work because it is my passion, but my finance person said no. I have since also have had a couple of injuries which stops me from going back, should have stayed.
I do know your fear, and it is scary, we went through the same things with AIDS, SARS, Bird flu, H1N1,  and two bacterial meningitis out breaks. Then there was Anthrax, and other CBRNE ****. The crews I worked with and myself just put on the PPE and rolled on.
As far as asking for extra money, EMS systems, cities and states struggle to make it everyday. You can ask the government for more and they can give it to you, but, where will that come from us, April the 15th every year. 
when you do ask for extra what Is really the intent. You really already should have been trained to deal with highly contagious scenarios. Using the proper PPE, washing your hands, cleaning up afterward is what is the protection required. If you are not given the proper PPE to do your job, then raise hell. Any good Supervisor would not allow to work without it, I have fought battles over PPE for bedbugs. But I don’t really see extra money for this scenario. There are a lot of dangerous **** out there we deal with we don’t get paid for. It’s part of the job. I can see your concern, and I hope I don’t end up with any haters. If your wondering I am still working a First ResponderJob so I am not totally out. I am also 65 years young and have a couple of medical problems. I am trying to find a way not to end this and not sound hateful, because it’s not. If you feel this situation is something that scares you enough you feel you should be paid extra pay, you may want to look at another career. I pray for all of you everyday. Becareful out there.


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## SandpitMedic (Mar 22, 2020)

This is the job.
Flu, SARS, SARS2, HIV, Hep, C.Diff, alien invasion, etc etc...

This is _*the*_ *job*. It doesn’t get much simpler. Everyone in healthcare is being affected and assumes these risks everyday...
If you don’t want the risk then quit.

(If you can’t get PPE- the scene is not safe... I know that will be your retort- if you don’t want to enter an unsafe scene, don’t and then still quit if forced.)


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## RocketMedic (Mar 22, 2020)

SandpitMedic said:


> This is the job.
> Flu, SARS, SARS2, HIV, Hep, C.Diff, alien invasion, etc etc...
> 
> This is _*the*_ *job*. It doesn’t get much simpler. Everyone in healthcare is being affected and assumes these risks everyday...
> ...


Every job has limits. I dare say, given that I’m an active 911 medic and you are not, that my tolerance for those limits is actually superior to yours. But in the context of a pandemic disease that is as easily spread as Covid-19, with the potential implications for ourselves and our families and the utter failure of healthcare leadership to prepare adequately for this, an unusual hazard exists.
Would you be making this same argument if it was only a 1% chance someone would shoot you on-scene with every call?


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## FiremanMike (Mar 22, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> Every job has limits. I dare say, given that I’m an active 911 medic and you are not, that my tolerance for those limits is actually superior to yours. But in the context of a pandemic disease that is as easily spread as Covid-19, with the potential implications for ourselves and our families and the utter failure of healthcare leadership to prepare adequately for this, an unusual hazard exists.
> Would you be making this same argument if it was only a 1% chance someone would shoot you on-scene with every call?



Didn’t you accuse me of a hero complex in another thread when I said we’d come to work while the other guy stayed home sick?


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## RocketMedic (Mar 22, 2020)

FiremanMike said:


> Didn’t you accuse me of a hero complex in another thread when I said we’d come to work while the other guy stayed home sick?


I did, because your post reeked of it. You basically accused him of being a malingerer.


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## FiremanMike (Mar 22, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> Every job has limits. I dare say, given that I’m an active 911 medic and you are not, that my tolerance for those limits is actually superior to yours. But in the context of a pandemic disease that is as easily spread as Covid-19, with the potential implications for ourselves and our families and the utter failure of healthcare leadership to prepare adequately for this, an unusual hazard exists.
> Would you be making this same argument if it was only a 1% chance someone would shoot you on-scene with every call?





RocketMedic said:


> I did, because your post reeked of it.



Well then I think I’ll just quote both these posts from you as a reminder.  Because your post definitely takes it to the next level.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 22, 2020)

I’m wondering what my personal “quit point” is with regards to pay, conditions and risk. Not going to lie, this “reused single use mask” thing and the whole back-talking “we do the best we can” thing Nomadic and a few others have done doesn’t seem terribly safe in the context of, say, Italy. “It’s the job” sort of rings hollow when those same voices say that proper suits and respirators are too expensive to stock.


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## OceanBossMan263 (Mar 22, 2020)

Not EMS specifically, but my municipality just came to an agreement with our union for essential workers. Many nonessential employees were told to stay home, with pay. Essential employees are working either half or full time for their usual rate. Hazard pay or OT would potentially bankrupt us, so they agreed on hour-for-hour comp time for everyone still reporting to work. Not extra money, but potentially a ton more time off, which means longer vacations, picking up OT on another job, or OT for people who may need to fill in for you later. Not the best, but something that recognizes the severity of the situation.


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## Carlos Danger (Mar 22, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> *I’m wondering what my personal “quit point” is* with regards to pay, conditions and risk. Not going to lie, this “reused single use mask” thing and the whole back-talking “we do the best we can” thing Nomadic and a few others have done doesn’t seem terribly safe in the context of, say, Italy. “It’s the job” sort of rings hollow when those same voices say that proper suits and respirators are too expensive to stock.


It sounds like you are there now. After several years of reading your comments outlining your philosophy and expectations, I can say with some confidence that you will never be satisfied in EMS, or probably anywhere in healthcare. 

I would suggest letting current events be the straw that breaks your personal camel's back, and go ahead and submit your resignation immediately and move on to a different line of work.

Good luck.


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## FiremanMike (Mar 22, 2020)

If you are afraid of contracting or spreading infectious diseases to your family, then it’s probably time for you to hang it up and find something else to do.  You have been exposed to infectious pathogens literally every day you have gone to work in EMS from the time you started until the time you retire.

The only difference is that this one is crammed down your throat with 2-4 hours of daily news conferences with daily death counts like we’re in the hunger games..  I can pretty much guarantee you didn’t act like this last flu season, a virus that is also quite contagious and also quite deadly to compromised patients.

If you choose to stick it out and come to work, it’s because that’s the job you signed up for: taking care of sick people.  There won’t be a combat ribbon at the other end and you don’t deserve extra pay for showing up and doing the same thing you’ve been doing for the last X number of years.

It‘s really that simple..


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## RocketMedic (Mar 22, 2020)

FiremanMike said:


> If you are afraid of contracting or spreading infectious diseases to your family, then it’s probably time for you to hang it up and find something else to do.  You have been exposed to infectious pathogens literally every day you have gone to work in EMS from the time you started until the time you retire.
> 
> The only difference is that this one is crammed down your throat with 2-4 hours of daily news conferences with daily death counts like we’re in the hunger games..  I can pretty much guarantee you didn’t act like this last flu season, a virus that is also quite contagious and also quite deadly to compromised patients.
> 
> ...


When we start paying people hazard pay, I fully expect all of you to forgo it.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 22, 2020)

Remi said:


> It sounds like you are there now. After several years of reading your comments outlining your philosophy and expectations, I can say with some confidence that you will never be satisfied in EMS, or probably anywhere in healthcare.
> 
> I would suggest letting current events be the straw that breaks your personal camel's back, and go ahead and submit your resignation immediately and move on to a different line of work.
> 
> Good luck.



nein. satisfaction is meh, it’s an opportunity that I can be significantly better at than most and I enjoy what I do. Just not so much some of the people I do it with.

I’m surprised so many of y’all are so altruistic. You should volunteer.


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## FiremanMike (Mar 22, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> When we start paying people hazard pay, I fully expect all of you to forgo it.



If they send me a check, I'm signing it right over to sweetwater for the guitar I've been eyeballing..  

But I don't expect it, I don't deserve, and I'm definitely not going to demand it just for going to work.

You are steadfast in your belief that you are doing something better than everyone else around you, you're not.  You're doing your part based on the career pathway that YOU CHOSE.

"I'm afraid of sick people" isn't really a valid reason for refusing to do your job, and they shouldn't have to pay  you extra to come to work.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 22, 2020)

One wonders how many of your employees feel the same...


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## Peak (Mar 22, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> When we start paying people hazard pay, I fully expect all of you to forgo it.



Lol, I'll probably die of shock the day I see a differential for treating an infectious disease.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 22, 2020)

Peak said:


> Lol, I'll probably die of shock the day I see a differential for treating an infectious disease.


I reckon it’ll happen eventually, probably the day welfare becomes as lucrative as work.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 22, 2020)

Nurse Judy Wilson-Griffin is first COVID-19 death in St. Louis region
					

Judy Wilson-Griffin, an African-American nurse who worked at SSM Health St. Mary’s Hospital, was the first person in the St. Louis region to succumb to COVID-19.




					www.stlamerican.com
				




No hazard here, we routinely die of things we get exposed to at work!


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## VentMonkey (Mar 22, 2020)

Sheesh, I thought my gen gap thread was nuts. Crazy times, bros.

Hazard pay? No more than the hazard pay I’d get for the current role that I practice in. Just like the other HEMS people that I know of.

I like the approach @FiremanMike is taking: “I’d take it, but don’t deserve (expect) it” take. Rational.


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## VFlutter (Mar 22, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> Nurse Judy Wilson-Griffin is first COVID-19 death in St. Louis region
> 
> 
> Judy Wilson-Griffin, an African-American nurse who worked at SSM Health St. Mary’s Hospital, was the first person in the St. Louis region to succumb to COVID-19.
> ...



Not to undermine the point but for transparency this was not work related exposure but rather community acquired. She was a clinical specialist with minimal direct patient interaction and was on personal leave for a while before this.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 22, 2020)

VFlutter said:


> Not to undermine the point but for transparency this was not work related exposure but rather community acquired. She was a clinical specialist with minimal direct patient interaction and was on personal leave for a while before this.


Exactly. It’s hazardous enough to kill you just in the course of normal life, yet we’re expected to Bandana it through repeated actively-symptomatic patients. But as y’all have said, “it’s adequate PPE” and the very concept of hazard pay is amoral and wrong.

Good thing you’re not in charge of anything more consequential than some podunk little departments. I’d hate to see you trying to recruit people.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 22, 2020)

Play nice.


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## FiremanMike (Mar 22, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> Exactly. It’s hazardous enough to kill you just in the course of normal life, yet we’re expected to Bandana it through repeated actively-symptomatic patients. But as y’all have said, “it’s adequate PPE” and the very concept of hazard pay is amoral and wrong.
> 
> Good thing you’re not in charge of anything more consequential than some podunk little departments. I’d hate to see you trying to recruit people.



Reductio ad absurdum. 

I'm done trying to reason with you, you are only interested in your own agenda.

May you get all the hazard pay you deserve.


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## VentMonkey (Mar 22, 2020)

ffemt8978 said:


> Play nice.


Fair enough, but I mean @RocketMedic is coming across as more and more irrational the deeper he digs his position on this thread.

It sounds to me like the majority has spoken, and not just the managers on this forum. I’d guess even most boots on the ground across the nation share the same opinion. Not all, but most.

Do what you signed up for. It’s not altruistic, it’s not foolish (again, knowing the consequences well ahead of time), it’s practical.

Both my wife and I are in the healthcare field and run great risks bringing it home to our three children, one being a terrible asthmatic from almost birth. I hardly doubt we’re alone in this.

What’s more negligent? Not working because I don’t want to risk catching COVID, or not putting food in their mouths?

I just don’t know. It’s a daily question for all of us and I’m seeing a lot of frightened faces on my co-workers—understandably so.

With that, I can’t help but feel obligated to pummel our children still with the “be grateful” reminders daily as well.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 22, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> Exactly. It’s hazardous enough to kill you just in the course of normal life, yet we’re expected to Bandana it through repeated actively-symptomatic patients. But as y’all have said, “it’s adequate PPE” and the very concept of hazard pay is amoral and wrong.
> 
> Good thing you’re not in charge of anything more consequential than some podunk little departments. I’d hate to see you trying to recruit people.


By that reasoning, you deserve hazard pay just for driving in the ambulance.  After all, that is hazardous enough to kill you in normal life.


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## VFlutter (Mar 22, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> Exactly. It’s hazardous enough to kill you just in the course of normal life, yet we’re expected to Bandana it through repeated actively-symptomatic patients. But as y’all have said, “it’s adequate PPE” and the very concept of hazard pay is amoral and wrong.
> 
> Good thing you’re not in charge of anything more consequential than some podunk little departments. I’d hate to see you trying to recruit people.



First of all, I professionally knew the nurse in that article, and was clarifying the facts as it appeared from the headline and your context this was a result of her working. Veracity is important during times like these, not just trying to fit a narrative. Not trying to argue for or against anything.

Not sure if the last comment was directed towards me but pretty sure it is wildly off base


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## Phillyrube (Mar 22, 2020)

Howz about hazard pay for elementary school teachers?  Friend of mine taught school for 35 years, had a perpetual code until she retired, dang little nose pickers.

Howz about all those IFTs we did with MRSA.   Yea yea, most of them had positive nasal swabs, just like we had working in the place.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 22, 2020)

Last comment


VFlutter said:


> First of all, I professionally knew the nurse in that article, and was clarifying the facts as it appeared from the headline and your context this was a result of her working. Veracity is important during times like these, not just trying to fit a narrative. Not trying to argue for or against anything.
> 
> Not sure if the last comment was directed towards me but pretty sure it is wildly off base


It was aimed right at @NomadicMedic and @FiremanMike .


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## PotatoMedic (Mar 22, 2020)

Do I want or expect hazard pay?  Nope.  Do I hope that this will help us ask our tax payers in the future for an increase in our EMS tax so we get pain comparable to our other public safety partners?  Yes.  

That is all I have to say on this topic.


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## Seirende (Mar 22, 2020)

PotatoMedic said:


> so we get pain comparable to our other public safety partners?  Yes.



You're not satisfied with the pain you're getting?


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## PotatoMedic (Mar 22, 2020)

Seirende said:


> You're not satisfied with the pain you're getting?


I believe in alternative payments!  Call it an extra benefit!😜


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## GMCmedic (Mar 22, 2020)

4 days off doing constant remodel work while also entertaining kids, one of which has made it a point to wake up at 0200 for the last 3 nights and stay up.........im ready to go back to work tomorrow, and Ill do it with a smile on my face because im thankful im not one of the millions of unlucky Americans that isnt collecting a paycheck right now.


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## SandpitMedic (Mar 22, 2020)

@RocketMedic... Let me try to help you out even though you are entrenched in your philosophy; perhaps you can engage in some introspection.

Desiring more pay for EMS in general =/= your discussion of hazard pay.

Anyone with a brain can figure out that there is an opportunity here and that we can take advantage of opportunities. The opportunity is that we can show that we are just as valuable as other healthcare professionals and that we should be held in the same regard. This thing going on right now is unprecedented, and it is a national emergency... It is not the time to demand more pay *during* the crisis. It is time to do your job. It is not altruistic to do what you signed up for as we have been trying to tell you. If, in your opinion, you did not sign up for this... well, you've had plenty of advice there. (not to be cliche, but you didn't see EMS and FFs demanding more pay to do their jobs on 9/11 did you?)

_When this is over_ the entire healthcare and public service arenas are going to be examined and altered. When those discussions and decisions are taking place, that will be the time for you to ride in on your "me too" horse and clamor for better conditions. I'll be on the horse next to you. I have always been a proponent of bettering conditions for EMS and advancing the profession for the better, right down to the street crews.

I am a credentialled paramedic. I'll always be a paramedic. Just because I'm not on the street right now does not mean I don't have risks for exposure to myself and bringing it home to my family. I am still in healthcare and affected by this, including being exposed to one of the first patients in my AO with COVID.


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## mgr22 (Mar 22, 2020)

SandpitMedic, I get what you're saying and I agree with some of it, but I wouldn't expect the world or even the country to think more highly of us beyond a couple of months when this is over. That's about how long the honeymoon seemed to last for EMS after 9/11, when I was working in NY. I'm not blaming anyone; the public has a right to value our contributions any way they want. It's just that they have short memories and usually don't need us. Plus, most of them don't even understand what we do, even now. I think we'll just revert to "the ambulance people" in their minds, and stay that way between global crises.


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## SandpitMedic (Mar 22, 2020)

mgr22 said:


> SandpitMedic, I get what you're saying and I agree with some of it, but I wouldn't expect the world or even the country to think more highly of us beyond a couple of months when this is over. That's about how long the honeymoon seemed to last for EMS after 9/11, when I was working in NY. I'm not blaming anyone; the public has a right to value our contributions any way they want. It's just that they have short memories and usually don't need us. Plus, most of them don't even understand what we do, even now. I think we'll just revert to "the ambulance people" in their minds, and stay that way between global crises.


Perhaps. Time will tell. 
We must certainly give it a go though.


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## Tigger (Mar 22, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> I’m wondering what my personal “quit point” is with regards to pay, conditions and risk. Not going to lie, this “reused single use mask” thing and the whole back-talking “we do the best we can” thing Nomadic and a few others have done doesn’t seem terribly safe in the context of, say, Italy. “It’s the job” sort of rings hollow when those same voices say that proper suits and respirators are too expensive to stock.


I don't think you will ever understand that you do not get to decide exactly what being a paramedic looks like everyday. This job is not just going to conform to every ideal and mandate you have for it, whether you are right or not. There is a reason you get paid to do it, you're providing a service that someone else defined. All these brash posits of what you think is acceptable mean nothing if your employer, patients, and industry don't agree. 

As an aside, I think my agency should be paying me more. The engine crews may as not well not respond right now as they are not coming anywhere near a remotely suspected patient unless they're dying. The ambulance paramedic is the one making contact every single call, which means all the transports and refusals. Normally the engines do the refusals and with the volume of non transport we're expecting, my workload is skyrocketing.


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## Tigger (Mar 23, 2020)

Also food for thought, Wildland Fire has hazard pay when on the line...


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## RocketMedic (Mar 23, 2020)

Balderdash.


Tigger said:


> Also food for thought, Wildland Fire has hazard pay when on the line...



You mean, firefighters get paid extra when the duty is extra-hazardous? Like a sort of...”hazard pay”?
What a concept.


----------



## Tigger (Mar 23, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> Balderdash.
> 
> 
> You mean, firefighters get paid extra when the duty is extra-hazardous? Like a sort of...”hazard pay”?
> What a concept.


Not everyone, but the feds do this. I have no idea why, it’s in the job description.


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## Rick813P (Mar 24, 2020)

FiremanMike said:


> Reductio ad absurdum.
> 
> I'm done trying to reason with you, you are only interested in your own agenda.
> 
> May you get all the hazard pay you deserve.


Dollar General is looking to hire 500,000 employees...just saying


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## Carlos Danger (Mar 24, 2020)

Rick813P said:


> Dollar General is looking to hire 500,000 employees...just saying


Amazon is hiring a ton, as well.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 24, 2020)

Remi said:


> Amazon is hiring a ton, as well.



Having been to some of their warehouses, that is a job desrving of hazard pay.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 24, 2020)

ffemt8978 said:


> Having been to some of their warehouses, that is a job desrving of hazard pay.


But it’s their job. I love this circular Nomadic logic


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## NomadicMedic (Mar 24, 2020)

Maybe if I put it picture form, it'll be easier for you to understand.


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## VentMonkey (Mar 24, 2020)

Tigger said:


> Not everyone, but the feds do this. I have no idea why, it’s in the job description.


I’m wondering if, in regards to the federal FF’s, it’s because their line of work is both extremely _physically_ demanding, and, seasonal.

And before there’s any finger pointing at how we’re all “in on it”, here’s the feds definition of hazard pay:




__





						Hazard Pay | U.S. Department of Labor
					

Hazard pay means additional pay for performing hazardous duty or work involving physical hardship. Work duty that causes extreme physical discomfort and distress which is not adequately alleviated by protective devices is deemed to impose a physical hardship. The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA)...




					www.dol.gov
				




Again, it appears the U.S. government deems it necessary for certain federal employees ATM.

//shrugs// @RocketMedic find yourself a federal job. Maybe they employ gurney van drivers at the federal level😁


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## FiremanMike (Mar 24, 2020)

VentMonkey said:


> I’m wondering if, in regards to the federal FF’s, it’s because their line of work is both extremely _physically_ demanding, and, seasonal.
> 
> And before there’s any finger pointing at how we’re all “in on it”, here’s the feds definition of hazard pay:
> 
> ...



It's always been my understanding that federal jobs have numerous of "extra pay" stipends such as hazard, location, education, etc, and that salaries listed not only don't include that, but don't reflect hours work.  As an example, federal firefighters working a 24/48 have an hourly rate of whatever it is, and the salary listed on usajobs is based on that hourly rate times 2080 hours per year, not the 2900 hours actually worked, so their actual salary is much higher..


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## Seirende (Mar 24, 2020)

NomadicMedic said:


> Maybe if I put it picture form, it'll be easier for you to understand.



Maybe if you used that meme format correctly...


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## Monday (Mar 24, 2020)

Imo discussion on everything is better than no discussion...

But I'm with that camp figuring it's just normal hazards of the job.

And personally I wouldn't feel justified taking the extra cash. If I were in for cash and benefits as a major motivation I could have went into banking.


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## GMCmedic (Mar 24, 2020)

Something of note, just because we see business as usual, doesnt mean it is. Some insurance companies don't actually have people at work to process claims, which means no reimbursement at the moment. Which in turn means operations have to anticipate a shortage of cash on hand. Paying hazard pay right now would IMO be a poor business practice.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 24, 2020)

GMCmedic said:


> Something of note, just because we see business as usual, doesnt mean it is. Some insurance companies don't actually have people at work to process claims, which means no reimbursement at the moment. Which in turn means operations have to anticipate a shortage of cash on hand. Paying hazard pay right now would IMO be a poor business practice.


It would also be a poor business practice to send employees into dangerous situations without adequate PPE but here we are...


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## GMCmedic (Mar 24, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> It would also be a poor business practice to send employees into dangerous situations without adequate PPE but here we are...


Im just making a general comment because I dont want to get involved in a pointless argument with you, but nothing is keeping you there. Youre free to leave whenever you like. I suspect you wont because you enjoy complaining.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 24, 2020)

GMCmedic said:


> Im just making a general comment because I dont want to get involved in a pointless argument with you, but nothing is keeping you there. Youre free to leave whenever you like. I suspect you wont because you enjoy complaining.


I genuinely enjoy what I do. Not sure if it’s long term viable or if I’ll survive this pandemic but reckon it’s fun until I grow up.


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## VentMonkey (Mar 24, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> I genuinely enjoy what I do. Not sure if it’s long term viable or if I’ll survive this pandemic but reckon it’s fun until I grow up.


Well then, perhaps you are asking the wrong thing/s to the wrong individual/s.

Also, what’s your “grown up” threshold? Mine was 18. Best, first-adult decision I’ve made


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## KingCountyMedic (Mar 24, 2020)

Virus or no virus I think the OP needs to get out of this field. All you do is complain about everything. Go out and find happiness someplace, I don't think EMS is for you. I'm not trying to be an *******, just my own personal observation. Peace.


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## VentMonkey (Mar 24, 2020)

I mean, I’m not debating the guy’s passion for the clinical aspects of this job, and not that anyone has. For all I know he is a stellar paramedic.

With that, who brings pebbles, and who brings rocks to the pond— the antagonist or the lobbyist?

I’d say this thread has run its course. He’s a lone ranger in a sea of (what I’d consider) realists.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 24, 2020)

Y’all seem to enjoy public “service” and lack an instinct for exploiting a situation. Quite nice of you.


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## Peak (Mar 24, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> Y’all seem to enjoy public “service” and *lack an instinct for exploiting a situation*. Quite nice of you.



Sounding a bit ASPD there...


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## RocketMedic (Mar 24, 2020)

Peak said:


> Sounding a bit ASPD there...


?

Hate to say it but failure to press for an advantage means you’ll never get it. In fact why not just volunteer since it’s a burden on our communities to pay for us?


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## Peak (Mar 24, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> ?
> 
> Hate to say it but failure to press for an advantage means you’ll never get it. In fact why not just volunteer since it’s a burden on our communities to pay for us?



There is a difference between working for an advantage and not feeling any compassion towards others and compassion for society.

Out of curiosity what made you first want to be in EMS?


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## Monday (Mar 24, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> In fact why not just volunteer since it’s a burden on our communities to pay for us?



Cough: Some of us *do* mostly volunteer.

It's not pressing for an advantage if that 'advantage' is tactically untenable.

Right now the global situation is ****, and I rather work toward making it less ****, THEN we can talk about where to get more cash for future pooch screws.

And it's, no jabs intended, very 1st world luxury.
People working 3world usually are used to conditions like this, not only no hazard pay but often no pay, even where private and contractual, quite usually.

YMMV but really, think one should consider the priorities.
Either it's your patients and safety of your team / partners and doing your job or it's not.

No personal or professional disrespect meant. I get we're all tired as hell and calls get worse and the resources aren't there and companies may have internal issues and what not.

So my post is to be read in a calm talking, while buying you all a beer post shift, or something healthier really, voice.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 24, 2020)

Everyone has their own priorities.


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## Peak (Mar 24, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> Y’all seem to enjoy public “service” and lack an instinct for exploiting a situation. Quite nice of you.





RocketMedic said:


> Everyone has their own priorities.



Yeah, I'd bet a lot of money on ASPD.


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## NomadicMedic (Mar 24, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> Hate to say it but failure to press for an advantage means you’ll never get it. In fact why not just volunteer since it’s a burden on our communities to pay for us?



You're getting further out into space with every post. I can't believe you actually used the phrase "exploit a situation". What in God's name is wrong with you? People are not working. The economy is going to be in a shambles for a loooong time. We're furloughing our wheelchair van drivers because there are no more routine appointments and our office staff is working 2 days a week because billing is down... and you want to "press for an advantage"?

Exploit a situation? That's the same as price gouging. You make me sick.

I used to just think you were a misunderstood guy that wanted a better system... but now... I don't know. You're on a different plane than the rest of us. We're not doing this job because we like being around contagious people or because we have some altruistic vision of giving up everything to help mankind (Ok, maybe some of us do...) but instead, we're doing a job that many can't or won't.

Because we want to. And need to.  Because it's what we believe is right. Because we are healthcare workers. And you don't get to pick and choose who you respond to when you're dispatched. 

And ya know what? Even without hazard pay, I'm still going to come into work, put on an N95 and go into the cesspool nursing home that has dozens of potential COVID-19 cases because it's my job. And I'll say it again because you seem to think I've lost touch with the field. I am STILL a credentialed paramedic that responds to ALS calls for service every day. I'm not a desk jockey.


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## FiremanMike (Mar 24, 2020)

NomadicMedic said:


> You're getting further out into space with every post. I can't believe you actually used the phrase "exploit a situation". What in God's name is wrong with you? People are not working. The economy is going to be in a shambles for a loooong time. We're furloughing our wheelchair van drivers because there are no more routine appointments and our office staff is working 2 days a week because billing is down... and you want to "press for an advantage"?
> 
> Exploit a situation? That's the same as price gouging. You make me sick.
> 
> ...



1,000% agree


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## Monday (Mar 24, 2020)

That was damn well put, NomadicMedic.


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## NomadicMedic (Mar 24, 2020)

You have no idea about how we treat our employees or how my system functions.  All you know is your own twisted self absorbed version of reality. 

I am 100% done with you.


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## GMCmedic (Mar 24, 2020)

Sooooo.....have you quit your job yet? 

At this point you almost have too.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 24, 2020)

NomadicMedic said:


> You have no idea about how we treat our employees or how my system functions.  All you know is your own twisted self absorbed version of reality.
> 
> I am 100% done with you.



If it’s anything like you behave on here, I reckon it must be as epic as the BEF circa 1915. “We value our people”?


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## RocketMedic (Mar 24, 2020)

GMCmedic said:


> Sooooo.....have you quit your job yet?
> 
> At this point you almost have too.



I enjoy my job, precisely because I am largely free of folks who attempt to downplay hazards. With that being said, if this job starts to pose a significant threat to my health, or stops being enjoyable, I’m out and off to a better opportunity.
I also personally think you’re a crew of whimsical blowhards on the Internet and put no weight at all behind most of what y’all say, so there’s that.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 24, 2020)

You know, I’m going to get real here. None of you know what actual extraordinary risk is. You go to work, same as we all do, and accept “normal” risks, like crashes and maybe getting sick. And I get it. I really do. I do the same thing. Yes, I could die or be seriously ill or injured as a result of my work in EMS, same as any other job. But there is no oath, no solemn vow, and no certainty to those fears. It’s a job. A job that pretty much universally treats you as an ultimately-replaceable cog in the greater system. And because it’s fun, rewarding and generally meaningful, I keep doing it. Same as y’all. And there’s hazards encountered in that. Storms. Floods. Fires. Violence. Fatigue. Part of the job, I agree. No one asked me to wade into floodwater to go get Grandma out, and I willingly accepted that risk without a second thought because we had an OK plan and could pull it off relatively safely. I accept the risk involved in routine EMS.

But then “different” hazards show up. Coronavirus, for starters. Dangerous, frequent and potentially lethal. It’s not the flu, and “leaders” like Sir Douglas Haig and some of y’all draw false equivalence to routine risks and claim it’s all “part of the job”. Guess what, it’s not. There is no oath or affirmation or obligation to put oneself in danger to perform as a paramedic, and yet, we’re putting ourselves in extraordinary danger every day, without adequate protective systems, training, equipment or even plans, and relying on hope and inadequate PPE. And we know it’s inadequate because our Chinese and Italian and now American brothers and sisters have died and are dying of this virus and there’s an excellent chance they were exposed while working as we do with the same inadequate training and equipment and systems. So that’s bad. In the military, peculiar hazards that cannot be entirely or effectively mitigated are compensated for by hazard pay, by a solemn commitment to care for the veteran and lifetime disability compensation, and by a large check and honors if they die. And it’s barely enough. But it’s way, way more than any of our employers offer. Would any EMS employer pay 100% of someone’s highest income for the rest of their life, tax-free, if they’re injured and disabled? Disability compensation? I doubt it.

And what do you do? “Oh, it’s your job, be glad you have one?” You know what? Most Americans are about to get some pretty substantial welfare and debt cancellation and will grit their way through this and they’ll promptly forget public service in general and us in particular when it’s over. And our industry will continue to spend as little as possible because people like you will take a sense of “duty” as the extra $10 an hour we should be getting.
Clearly you’re more altruistic and better people than I am, but I think that if a community wants me to risk my life to help them in their hour of need, they ought to pay appropriately for it and to a degree that compensates for the danger of that work. That you argue against that is baffling to me. And yes, I’m angry at you, because you want all of the noble trappings of good and righteous and honorable organizations and a profession while paying lip service at best to the solemn and costly obligations underlying those traditions, and you undermine the entire case for developing such a culture of responsibility by offering to provide EMS for costs so low people never have to think about it because “it’s not their problem”.

You don’t want to pay hazard pay? Fine, show us your isolation suits, full-face self-contained respirators and cleaning solutions that decon the whole truck. Show us the robust, meaningful support and rehabilitation system there to make injured employees whole. Show us the compensation scheme to ensure someone’s family is taken care of adequately to begin to let yourself believe you did the best you could as a leader to make their loved ones sacrifice worthwhile. But until that’s there, I think it’s appropriate to at least consider paying someone more than $9 an hour to respond to EMS calls in the middle of a pandemic.
But that’s hard and people like Easy. Beating their chests about warm zones and active shooters and how smart and cool they are. Woo. Color me impressed.

And yeah, I am jaded. I’m also a better paramedic than most of you and don’t really have an abundance of concern for what random Internet dudes think. And I have no desire to fly, to work for some podunk little EMS service that pays its people poorly, or to sink into the mediocrity that some of y’all clearly think is the best thing ever.


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## Peak (Mar 24, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> You know, I’m going to get real here. None of you know what actual extraordinary risk is. You go to work, same as we all do, and accept “normal” risks, like crashes and maybe getting sick. And I get it. I really do. I do the same thing. Yes, I could die or be seriously ill or injured as a result of my work in EMS, same as any other job. But there is no oath, no solemn vow, and no certainty to those fears. It’s a job. A job that pretty much universally treats you as an ultimately-replaceable cog in the greater system. And because it’s fun, rewarding and generally meaningful, I keep doing it. Same as y’all. And there’s hazards encountered in that. Storms. Floods. Fires. Violence. Fatigue. Part of the job, I agree. No one asked me to wade into floodwater to go get Grandma out, and I willingly accepted that risk without a second thought because we had an OK plan and could pull it off relatively safely. I accept the risk involved in routine EMS.
> 
> But then “different” hazards show up. Coronavirus, for starters. Dangerous, frequent and potentially lethal. It’s not the flu, and “leaders” like Sir Douglas Haig and some of y’all draw false equivalence to routine risks and claim it’s all “part of the job”. Guess what, it’s not. There is no oath or affirmation or obligation to put oneself in danger to perform as a paramedic, and yet, we’re putting ourselves in extraordinary danger every day, without adequate protective systems, training, equipment or even plans, and relying on hope and inadequate PPE. And we know it’s inadequate because our Chinese and Italian and now American brothers and sisters have died and are dying of this virus and there’s an excellent chance they were exposed while working as we do with the same inadequate training and equipment and systems. So that’s bad. In the military, peculiar hazards that cannot be entirely or effectively mitigated are compensated for by hazard pay, by a solemn commitment to care for the veteran and lifetime disability compensation, and by a large check and honors if they die. And it’s barely enough. But it’s way, way more than any of our employers offer. Would any EMS employer pay 100% of someone’s highest income for the rest of their life, tax-free, if they’re injured and disabled? Disability compensation? I doubt it.
> 
> ...



As an honest question, before November did you every advocate for better PPE on the ambulance? Did you ever search out that knowledge on your own? Did you do anything to promote better protection from disease in the EMS line of work?


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## RocketMedic (Mar 24, 2020)

Peak said:


> As an honest question, before November did you every advocate for better PPE on the ambulance? Did you ever search out that knowledge on your own? Did you do anything to promote better protection from disease in the EMS line of work?


Yes, and I was ignored. I brought it up as early as January, and I’ve previously brought it up. I’ve even been written up for taking “too long to clean the truck” before and refusing to put a dirty one in service without proper cleaning. I’ve always been a bit of a clean freak and safety guy. But “gloves are enough”.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 24, 2020)

Finally, I’d like to point out that the anti-Rocket crowd can’t even articulate what reasonable thresholds for hazard pay, parameters for that pay or objectives for hazard pay would be. They just knee-jerk to their ideological corners. And that is why I never want to work for or with them- they lack the ability to conceptualize anything outside of their familiarity and comfort.


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## Peak (Mar 25, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> Yes, and I was ignored. I brought it up as early as January, and I’ve previously brought it up. I’ve even been written up for taking “too long to clean the truck” before and refusing to put a dirty one in service without proper cleaning. I’ve always been a bit of a clean freak and safety guy. But “gloves are enough”.



Then if you knew the risk of transmission of disease and the relatively poor availability of medical PPE for EMS why did you stay in the field and not transition to another area of practice or another field?


I am going out on a limb and assuming that you are fairly young and healthy. Are you not concerned that you will suicide, get involved in a fatal MVC, or become seriously injured by a member of the public? Those are probably far more likely for most people in EMS.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 25, 2020)

Peak said:


> Then if you knew the risk of transmission of disease and the relatively poor availability of medical PPE for EMS why did you stay in the field and not transition to another area of practice or another field?
> 
> 
> I am going out on a limb and assuming that you are fairly young and healthy. Are you not concerned that you will suicide, get involved in a fatal MVC, or become seriously injured by a member of the public? Those are probably far more likely for most people in EMS.



those are all threats I can mitigate fairly well with the gear at hand, and if everyone left EMS or other fields for the possibilities, no one would ever venture out. To quote James Kirk, “risk is our business.”

but that risk is here now, and we can’t ignore it.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 25, 2020)

And if Coronavirus gets more lethal a lot of us are going to stop showing up at current rates...or at all.


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## DesertMedic66 (Mar 25, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> And yeah, I am jaded. I’m also a better paramedic than most of you and don’t really have an abundance of concern for what random Internet dudes think.


If you feel you have to state that you are a better paramedic than most of us, the odds are that you are not. That would be insecurity. I would seek out some professional help if I was you.

Hazard pay isn't going to change anything important for what is currently going on. All it sounds like is that you are unhappy with your pay and are trying to use this as an excuse to boost it up. Just because my paychecks would be bigger doesn't mean that my risk is eliminated or reduced at all at all. It doesn't mean that I will have all the PPE that I need. It doesn't mean anything at all aside from a bigger paycheck. If I make $200 more per shift doesn't mean I am now immune to COVID. COVID does look at your paycheck and say "oh ****, he's getting hazard pay. He is safe from me now".

If you are not satisfied with receiving no hazard pay during this time, then please quit and return back to EMS when its all over. Everyone on the form knows you have absolutely no issue with quitting EMS agencies.


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## Monday (Mar 25, 2020)

Rocket, dude, it's nice you got all that anger and resentment out, I'm told raging at the system time to time is good for the heart...

But no need to attack people here.
Who clearly care enough to be honest, and from the posts knew you and cared for your life and work going well for years.

No one here knows real hazards is just plain insulting, condescending nonsense.

You don't know where people typing these letters been or what they seen.

And kicking into people who try to help others, you don't sound like someone people who worked and lived tragedies years in and out would want to pour their hearts out to.

That and some bits bite.
Plus there may be many operational and contractual reasons to not really even think of mentioning some times on an internet forum. So for that.


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## Peak (Mar 25, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> those are all threats I can mitigate fairly well with the gear at hand, and if everyone left EMS or other fields for the possibilities, no one would ever venture out. To quote James Kirk, “risk is our business.”
> 
> but that risk is here now, and we can’t ignore it.



Sorry but you can't really mitigate for the suicides that we see in EMS, police, fire, the military, or healthcare. Once that damage is done changing the neuro pathology back is almost impossible. 

You can't mitigate a drunk driver hitting you or really your partner making a mistake when they are driving.

And how do you think you can mitigate a member of society who decides they want to shoot someone that day are you're the victim?


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## Seirende (Mar 25, 2020)

Peak said:


> Sorry but you can't really mitigate for the suicides that we see in EMS, police, fire, the military, or healthcare. Once that damage is done changing the neuro pathology back is almost impossible.



You can increase protective factors and decrease risk factors


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## RocketMedic (Mar 25, 2020)

And those are routine problems of society.


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## Seirende (Mar 25, 2020)

RocketMedic said:


> And those are routine problems of society.



So's infectious disease. Is your main concern the inadequate PPE?


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## Peak (Mar 25, 2020)

Seirende said:


> You can increase protective factors and decrease risk factors



That's certainly true to an extent, but mostly relies on systemic changes and not something one person can do by themselves.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 25, 2020)

And that's enough of this thread.


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