# Post Severe Storm Response



## Rcoddington (Feb 20, 2013)

On April 27th 2011 my area was hit by a series of very strong tornados (including several F5s). The storms hit from early morning to late afternoon. Reports were coming in over radio that different areas were requesting all available resources. This is the day that basically the :censored: hit the fan. All power was down including radio repeaters and cell towers. (Later learned over 250 people died that day in our state) 

So scenario is you are an EMT with a well stocked Med kit and are familiar with areas worst hit. Would you go out and help as much as possible? Or take it easy? 

**Also realize that ambulances were to the point of self dispatching because of complete lack of COMs, and people couldn't call 911 and 911 couldn't dispatch.**


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## DrParasite (Feb 21, 2013)

how are you self dispatching?  meaning, how do you know where the sick and injured are?  

If I was in your position, i would not take my jump kit and help people.  I would get on the ambulance and help people.  Staff 3 or 4 person crews, and realize your on your own, and no M/a is going to come.  Also remember, many people will need an ambulance to take them to the hopital, not a self dispatching EMT with a stocked jump kit.  freelancing is generally frowned on, especially when you need help and no one know where you are.

do the best you can with limited resources.  that's what happens., and i hope you have a plan for it.

Durring Superstorm Sandy, everyone was told "there would be NO mutual aid provided", so make proper arragnement.  just remember, it's a severe storm, so calling for all available resources isn't going to help, since there is a good chance everyone is calling for all additional manpower.


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## DesertMedic66 (Feb 21, 2013)

If you are employeed with an ambulance company then being at work is where you will do the most good. If they need you to dispatch then they will place you there. If they need you responding then they will put you there. 

One of the hardest hit areas in NY during Hurrican Sandy was actually having people who lived there helping out. I had an unemployed NY EMT and a laid of NYPD officer come up and ask for help. The area they were helping with had 0 running ambulances. They were using their personal 4x4 vehicles to go door to door and help people out (the areas they were going needed a 4x4 vehicle).


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## Rcoddington (Feb 21, 2013)

DrParasite said:


> how are you self dispatching?  meaning, how do you know where the sick and injured are?
> 
> If I was in your position, i would not take my jump kit and help people.  I would get on the ambulance and help people.  Staff 3 or 4 person crews, and realize your on your own, and no M/a is going to come.  Also remember, many people will need an ambulance to take them to the hopital, not a self dispatching EMT with a stocked jump kit.  freelancing is generally frowned on, especially when you need help and no one know where you are.
> 
> ...



In the beginning of the day communications were still up and everyone was aware of the hardest hit areas. After all power went down there was still some FM radio stations that would tell people to shelter when another tornado was inbound, but in the early afternoon. The Doppler radar they were using was destroyed. So even early warning was no longer existent, but interestingly the majority of the tornados followed the same paths so a few single areas just were pounded and pounded (that's how you knew where todo). 

I believe this to be different from hurricane Sandys response because we had almost no warning this storm was going to hit, and y'all had quite awhile to get assets in place. 

Also it was to the point that just hopping on an ambulance doesn't really help when your going to fill up the entire ambulance with patients. There weren't enough trucks to transport everyone so people were actually driving down there interstate I'm pickup trucks with wounded in the back on the way to the hospital. Several patients were transported on doors (as makeshift backboards). 




Just to give you an idea this is a picture of an ambulance transporting as many backboards as possible to one of the areas. 

The ambulance company couldn't place you where they needed you because all the trucks were out and there was no communications to tell you where todo anyway.


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## Veneficus (Feb 21, 2013)

The picture of the ambulance with so many backboards tells me that agency has no idea how to handle a disaster. 

Disaster response and operations (and by extension war and austere medicine) are well researched specialty fields with lots of around the world experience. 

All disasters are mitigated by logistics, not by response to to individual treatments.

The first step in disaster response is to understand and plan for the conditions.

There are actual published medical guidlines on who should receive care and how much because of the limit and lack of resources. While some of those guidlines are really difficult decisions to stand by, they are for the good of everyone.

As any experienced person can tell you, the normal civilian EMS response, treatment, and transport model does not work. (One of the reasons nobody wants EMT volunteers post incident) 

There are numerous accounts of destruction of facilities, or facilities with limited staffing and capabilities. If you or your agency didn't understand this basic concept, I hope you are volunteers because certainly there is no level of professional knowledge. 

Additionally, in multiple recent disasters it was determined that often EMS changes from a transport mode to a shelter and care in place operation. Particularly for those triaged as less urgent. 

In disasters and "refugee conditions" as the phrase is used, there are 2 main types of diseases which become cyclical. Acute trauma during the initial event, followed by basic health problems (chronic condition management and public health issues) then acute trauma becomming prevalent again during reconstruction efforts. 

Was your agency really planning on putting dozens of people on backboards and flooding an ED with them? 

Most EMS treatments will be of little use. The few that are will be in short supply. Medications and devices generally used to prevent acute exacerbations of chronic events are not carried by EMS. 

Organization is another major part of disaster response. It is better to have a central area where care is directed from than people wandering around doing their own thing. Safety issues aside, basic needs like toilet, sleep, food, water, etc. all have to be managed. (As well as an influx of selfdispatched volunteers who add to the logistical problems)

Anyway, the best and nicest advice I can give you is, get some knowledge of disaster response before you try to decide what your role in it is going to be.


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## RocketMedic (Feb 21, 2013)

If that truck had been loaded with water bottles, a portable generator with space heater (or use the truck...) and linens/MRE/extension cords, you'd be like Disaster Jesus.

COPD, CHF, and  "Odd Cardiac Dysrhythmias" are generally fatal conditions in a true disaster-type situation. These are people best managed by a designated evacuation asset. Outfitting everyone to take care of them is redundant, to say the least. (I know, but politically, it's hard to leave Grandma Bradycardia or Great-Uncle Wheezer at home in the mess of things.)

You say you lost all communications- did your agency have a generator for its radios? What about the trucks? If your truck runs, you've got a radio. Heck, loot some walkie-talkies.

Regardless of level, showing up to a destroyed neighborhood with a plan, a bright flashy ambulance, clean water and hot food and as much power as you can push out (power strips and extension cords) is a better response than strapping everyone you could find to a backboard and flooding the local ED. People are animals with a thin veneer of 'civilization' and revert quickly to unpredictability when they lose comforts; I like keeping them comfortable and not-dangerous. (Note, in something like this, it may be more appropriate to use POVs or buses or a designated evacuation truck than to pull your unit out of the Triage Nest). 

Politically, an excellent disaster response is a great tool to avoid future budget cuts. It's way better to be remembered as "those awesome guys from CXZT who made it all better" than "what did they do for me?"


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## Rcoddington (Feb 21, 2013)

Rocketmedic40 said:


> If that truck had been loaded with water bottles, a portable generator with space heater (or use the truck...) and linens/MRE/extension cords, you'd be like Disaster Jesus.
> 
> COPD, CHF, and  "Odd Cardiac Dysrhythmias" are generally fatal conditions in a true disaster-type situation. These are people best managed by a designated evacuation asset. Outfitting everyone to take care of them is redundant, to say the least. (I know, but politically, it's hard to leave Grandma Bradycardia or Great-Uncle Wheezer at home in the mess of things.)
> 
> ...



Communications were down for a few days. It took time to deploy generators to the repeater sites. The crews had their personal and truck radios, but those weren't strong enough to reach dispatch because of the lack of repeaters. 

I know this may seem like every patient found were just strapped to a backboard and transported, but there were a huge amount of high priority trauma patients. Just to give you an idea 238 people died, and if thats the amount of fatalities just imagine the number of injured patients that survived. Obviously only the critical patients were immediately transported.

Another issue was you'd have 20 *yellows* on scene and by the time an ambulance got through the roads (which were blocked by debris and fallen trees) half of them had progressed to red.


(To Veneficus) At the time this happened disaster procedures were not well known by the truck crews or command. Our area had never experienced an incident on this scale. 

In the beginning i was mainly speaking about the day of and after the storms when getting patients to the hospital was the big priority.

It really was amazing to see how everyone adapted to the situation. The emergency personnel did a phenomenal job at working with what they had. especially with the lack of direction everyone had. 

On the day after the storms supplies were brought by volunteers from the supermarkets. The next day the red cross and national guard arrived further distributing supplies. 

Back to the EMS response. The care of *greens* were mostly taken care of on scene. Obviously the people and crews used common sense in all of this.

Also the need for all the backboards were to secure the patients with possible spinal injuries. When the patients were found or pulled from the debris. Would you want somebody to sit there and hold C Spine until transport arrived? No you wouldn't, hence all the backboards so you can at least secure the patient on scene.

Our state has done a fantastic job since in planning for future disasters. Including beginning the process of switching radios over to a state wide network so that multiple agencies can communicate together over the same type of network, started hands on courses that teach citizens how to react to a disaster, and started multiple public campaigns including a few days where there's no sales tax on emergency goods.


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## Handsome Robb (Feb 22, 2013)

firefite said:


> If you are employeed with an ambulance company then being at work is where you will do the most good. If they need you to dispatch then they will place you there. If they need you responding then they will put you there.



This. 

/thread.

If you're freelancing I'm sure you'll end up getting booted by some government agency eventually. Plus you don't have any ability to transport or medical direction. I guess theoretically you could go pass out band-aids somewhere?

Not trying to be a ****, sorry if it comes off that way but the fact of the matter is that you're not going to be able to help from an EMS standpoint by wandering around with a jump bag. Not saying there aren't other aspects in a disaster zone you can't help with but if your goal is EMS you need to go through the proper channels, whether it be going into work to help staff units, aid centers, where ever they need you or volunteering through an organization like the ARC.


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## Veneficus (Feb 22, 2013)

*This is going to be harsh, sorry...*

Not trying to be mean, but your reply to mine just restates the obvious. Nobody knew what they were doing.

People (especially managers) probably should have lost their jobs for such ignorance, incompetence, and short-sightedness. I hope they did for the benefit of future generations.

From tsunamis to earthquakes, to powerful storms, to subway bombings, the rest of the world seems to have educated themselves and prepare for disaster response.

"It never happened to us before" is not an excuse, and since there are people specifically educated, trained, and paid, to plan for and mitigate disasters. The idea that "it never happened to us before" just means that everyone had their head burried in the sand and wasn't even aware of what was going on outside of your little area. Hardly a sign of engaged pros.

It may seem like I am being overly critical, and truthfully I am. I hate small town, good old boy networks, who measure their ability by "it never happened and somehow we survived, so it must have been a good job."

It wasn't a good job.  Since the 1980s it was highly publicized it will take 24-48 hours with an intactinfrastructure for federal help to arrive. You didn't know? You had no preperations? You were surprised? Where has your agency been?

Your description simply describes amateurs masquerading as professionals, or maybe even heroes.

Did they give out awards for this cluster after too?



Rcoddington said:


> Communications were down for a few days. It took time to deploy generators to the repeater sites. The crews had their personal and truck radios, but those weren't strong enough to reach dispatch because of the lack of repeaters.



Of course it did, backup generators prestaged for communication didn't seem important prior to a disaster?

Maybe the money was spent buying backboards? 



Rcoddington said:


> I know this may seem like every patient found were just strapped to a backboard and transported, but there were a huge amount of high priority trauma patients.



So what? What did the backboard help with? Did it magically increase surgical capability for them? Hospital space? What made anyone think it was helping or doing anything at all?

It sounds to me they didn't know what to do so they did what they knew, even though it was pointless and may have harmed people.



Rcoddington said:


> Just to give you an idea 238 people died, and if thats the amount of fatalities just imagine the number of injured patients that survived. Obviously only the critical patients were immediately transported.



Sorry, that is not that much. It is probably just the largest your area ever saw. Inexperienced, unprepaired is an excuse. Who cares if you had 10,000 dead, they are dead, they require no treatment. They should not be taking up treatment resources at all. Including things like putting sheets over them.




Rcoddington said:


> Another issue was you'd have 20 *yellows* on scene and by the time an ambulance got through the roads (which were blocked by debris and fallen trees) half of them had progressed to red..



Again, not many at all. That is not even a busy night in many EDs I have seen that a staff of roughly 8-10 handle regularly. Did they progress to red because you lacked the ability to treat them or did they progress because you are not used to taking care of patients long term and were scared?

We have a word for people who rapidly deteriorate in a disaster, we call them "expectant."

I am also going to just guess not all of your "criticals" wound up in surgery or an ICU. Which means they were in fact, not really critical.

Unless your treatments made them that way.



Rcoddington said:


> (To Veneficus) At the time this happened disaster procedures were not well known by the truck crews or command. Our area had never experienced an incident on this scale...



Regretably, that is obvious.  



Rcoddington said:


> In the beginning i was mainly speaking about the day of and after the storms when getting patients to the hospital was the big priority..



As I said, transporting to the hospital in a disaster is not a reasonable goal. It was all you knew, so it is what you did.

When you take a large disaster and transport it to the hospital, you do not help mitigate it, all you do is move it from one location to another. You know what happens to sick people in a hospital when resources run out? They die there.

Whether a person dies with no care in the rubble or dies with no care in the hospital, they still die. You don't win any awards for driving people around and wasting fuel.

Of course the the infrastructure was destroyed, that is part of disasters. It happens in all of them.



Rcoddington said:


> It really was amazing to see how everyone adapted to the situation. The emergency personnel did a phenomenal job at working with what they had. especially with the lack of direction everyone had.



From your description, it doesn't sound amazing, it sounds like self praise for muddling through no better than any other person who is not a "professional" responder. 



Rcoddington said:


> On the day after the storms supplies were brought by volunteers from the supermarkets. The next day the red cross and national guard arrived further distributing supplies..



As scheduled. I am sorry you seem surprised. 



Rcoddington said:


> Back to the EMS response. The care of *greens* were mostly taken care of on scene. Obviously the people and crews used common sense in all of this..



I can only hope with more ability than the other treatment and transport details you described.



Rcoddington said:


> Also the need for all the backboards were to secure the patients with possible spinal injuries. When the patients were found or pulled from the debris. Would you want somebody to sit there and hold C Spine until transport arrived? No you wouldn't, hence all the backboards so you can at least secure the patient on scene.



So you took people who were going to have delayed treatment/transport and put them on a board to help them, despite well known harmful effects of that, and ED policies around the world designed to remove people from boards as soon as possible?

You don't hold c-spine in a disaster. You let the person lay there and self splint. You don't strap people to boards that causes harm, inhibits breathing, and requires you to spend resources to monitor their airway. In a disaster, c-spine precautions are not a priority at all.

Perhaps if one vomited on that board and nobody was monitoring them and they died from a FBAO they will be very greatful you did your best to prevent secondary spinal injury.



Rcoddington said:


> Our state has done a fantastic job since in planning for future disasters. Including beginning the process of switching radios over to a state wide network so that multiple agencies can communicate together over the same type of network, started hands on courses that teach citizens how to react to a disaster, and started multiple public campaigns including a few days where there's no sales tax on emergency goods.



Lol, they couldn't do much worse. But it is typical to upgrade communications after a disaster, it makes it look like it will solve all the problems and the leaders know and are doing something. It is also a good PR tool, because it is hard to show off your knew knowledge but not your new electronic toys.

The rest of that is just useless fluff. Like hiding under your school desk in a nuclear attack with a burn kit.

Sorry for my curt and candid response, but like I said, this level of ignorance from those who claim to be "professional" really pisses me off. They should be embarassed everytime somebody looks up to them. 

Nobody in an emergency agency should be proud of having no insight and no idea how to handle a disaster. It means they didn't know or care enough to do their job before it happened.

Especially then congratulate themselves on a job well done when they really weren't doing anything and the situation resolved itself.

Like I said, I have no mercy and no tolerance for these types of people. What were they doing instead of planning for disasters everyday? Trying to organize where they were in the next parade line-up?

We sometimes make fun of it, but every emergency organization I have ever been part of, visited, or have only ever talked online around the world plans for "the big one" both formally and informally on a regular basis. 

What you described here wasn't a good job. It was garbage. Understanding that is the first step to improvement.


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## DesertMedic66 (Feb 22, 2013)

The best way to respond to a major incident like that is to prepare. Have everything needed before it is needed. Once something does happen you should have a plan (general plan) and vital supplies to keep you working. 

I'm in Cali so I don't have to worry about tornados, hurricanes, floods. Our main concern from the earth is earthquakes (still haven't figured out a way to predict them). So our main station and dispatch center (60 miles away) both have back up generators (not the small portable ones). We also have a mobile communications rig with the ability to dispatch from inside. We also have a MCI trailer with everything from backboards to duodote kits. We also have a "DemCo" Uhaul type vehicle (it's got flashy lights and the woo woos) with cots, portable showers, portable toilets, and other non medical equipment. And this is all for a private company. 

Now the fire department has a good amount of goodies as well. 

As for location that should play a lot into what stuff and how much you need. I'm not familiar with your area so I can not speak of it. As for us here in Cali, while I may be in a semi isolated region, the pure amount of resources available is jaw dropping. So it won't be extremely long before we are getting aid from other agencies. 

To recap the best way to respond to a disaster is to prepare before a disaster occurs... Long before it does occur.


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## Rcoddington (Feb 22, 2013)

**veneficus**
You must have a fantastic set of departments where your from, and have responded to a lot of disasters personally. You seem to not give any helpful advice, but purely tell me that we did the worst things possible. There is literally not a single thing I have said that you have then said is wrong. 
Very helpful...


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## RocketMedic (Feb 22, 2013)

Rcoddington, Veneficus has been working in the fire service and emergency medicine since I was in grade school, but his expertise is not unique. There are quite a few experts in disaster planning and plenty of cheap or free resources. That your agency failed to take advantage of those resources is criminal, in my opinion. 

Heck, a junior-enlisted medic could have shot holes in the disaster response plan y'all used.


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## MrJones (Feb 22, 2013)

Rocketmedic40 said:


> Rcoddington, Veneficus has been working in the fire service and emergency medicine since I was in grade school, but his expertise is not unique. There are quite a few experts in disaster planning and plenty of cheap or free resources. That your agency failed to take advantage of those resources is criminal, in my opinion.
> 
> Heck, a junior-enlisted medic could have shot holes in the disaster response plan y'all used.



Regardless of whether he's done it a day or a decade, his decision to criticize every aspect of the OP's experience was everything _except_ helpful. It's one thing to use one's training and experience to point out ways in which improvements can be made; it's another thing entirely to use them to belittle others. And, like it or not, that's pretty much all I've gotten out of Veneficus' posts in this thread.


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## Veneficus (Feb 22, 2013)

MrJones said:


> Regardless of whether he's done it a day or a decade, his decision to criticize every aspect of the OP's experience was everything _except_ helpful. It's one thing to use one's training and experience to point out ways in which improvements can be made; it's another thing entirely to use them to belittle others. And, like it or not, that's pretty much all I've gotten out of Veneficus' posts in this thread.



Maybe I should be more specific on why this upsets me so much? 

It will probably help you take something important away from this.

What was demonstrated here is that the "leadership" of this department did not have even the most basic of knowledge of a topic (disaster response) that is directly in the realm of what is expected in their industry. 

That is a very poor quality leader. 

Now I don't know if this is a fire agency or an EMS agency or even both, but it doesn't matter. These people who bestowed these titles upon themselves with obviously no merit are making life and death decisions. 

Not only for patients, who deserve more, but of their very people. Who as you can see from the poster, hold them in high regard as both teachers and role models. 

Dumb decisions can get people killed in such an environment and these "leaders" didn't bother to even get some basic information on their industry in order to make these decisions.

Just like most EMT students probably don't know a good instructor from a bad one, members of the mentioned department thought they did good!

That is like being asleep at the wheel and bragging you survived the accident. 

People like the poster should take away what a farse their leadership is. So they can make an informed decision on whether they want to stay involved.

I wonder, if they didn't have the insight or basic knowledge is such a widely known topic, what other basic knowledge are they lacking in?

When fire and EMS people are killed, the loss is collectively mourned, they get a flag, a wreath, and some flowers. But it doesn't bring back mothers, fathers, kids, lovers, etc. 

When they get killed needlessly, because of a flawed system or leadership, it makes it even worse. Especially when those in command don't even know it was their fault and preventable.

Look at your leadership with a critical eye, not blind admiration. The life that might be saved could be yours.


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## MrJones (Feb 22, 2013)

Veneficus said:


> Maybe I should be more specific on why this upsets me so much?
> 
> It will probably help you take something important away from this....



Oh, I took something important away _long_ before you decided to be "more specific". But thanks for taking the time to expand on your position.


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## RocketMedic (Feb 22, 2013)

That MrJones is too arrogant to learn from other people's mistakes in the mistaken "noble belief that it is wrong to insult someone by criticizing them because you weren't there in that position"?

Constructive criticism forgets that construction requires destruction, regardless of whether it's a house going up on a field or a real concept of how to handle something replacing improvisation.


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## Rcoddington (Feb 22, 2013)

Constructive criticism is one thing, but if your close minded enough to put down basically every single thing I put up. Then you either you misunderstood, or you need to pull you head out of your ***.and realize that I AM NOT management, and I and every other first responder did the best with what they had (whether you think they did or not). Maybe you should take all your criticism and write a letter to Alabama EMA. I'm sure they'd enjoy it as much as I did.


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## usalsfyre (Feb 22, 2013)

Rcoddington said:


> I and every other first responder did the best with what they had (whether you think they did or not).



The problem is "what you had" was caca. Horse puckey. Bull Scat.

Rather than stand around and pat yourselves on the back you should think long and hard about both your and other's role in how this went bad. You muddled through it, got lucky no one got died with EMS assistance and that none of your people were killed due to lack of communications, building collapse, flying debris or any other number of things that will reach up and bite you in this environment. 

I like Veneficus have grown really tired of seeing deaths due to lack of preparation and failure to recognize and acknowledge standard hazards. 

I'll leave you with this quote, source unknown

"An amateur relies on luck as a factor, a professional seeks to eliminate it as a factor"


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## shfd739 (Feb 22, 2013)

Rcoddington said:


> Constructive criticism is one thing, but if your close minded enough to put down basically every single thing I put up. Then you either you misunderstood, or you need to pull you head out of your ***.and realize that I AM NOT management, and I and every other first responder did the best with what they had (whether you think they did or not). Maybe you should take all your criticism and write a letter to Alabama EMA. I'm sure they'd enjoy it as much as I did.



You're in north Alabama and I can probably guess who you work for. 

No surprise to me what you dealt with and the lack of preparation.  

Tornados happen up there and should be something that a 911 company is ready for. Yes it costs money and eats away at profit but as a 911 responder the community depends on it as necessity.

I feel fortunate that none of my family were affected (too close for comfort,but not affected) and were not subject to the lack of response capability.


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## Chimpie (Feb 23, 2013)

Rcoddington said:


> Constructive criticism is one thing, but if your close minded enough to put down basically every single thing I put up. Then you either you misunderstood, or you need to pull you head out of your ***.and realize that I AM NOT management, *and I and every other first responder did the best with what they had* (whether you think they did or not). ....



That may be true, but...



usalsfyre said:


> The problem is "what you had" was caca. Horse puckey. Bull Scat. ...



Now it's time to move forward.  Instead of asking the question...



Rcoddington said:


> ...
> So scenario is you are an EMT with a well stocked Med kit and are familiar with areas worst hit. Would you go out and help as much as possible? Or take it easy?



... the question should be, _"What can we do to improve so this situation doesn't happen again in the future?"_

You can even start with the final part of your first post...


Rcoddington said:


> **Also realize that ambulances were to the point of self dispatching because of complete lack of COMs, and people couldn't call 911 and 911 couldn't dispatch.**



So maybe comms will be one area that you can look on improving.

We're quickly coming up on the two year anniversary of April 27.  By now there should be some serious improvements.  If not, maybe you should approach management and start creating some chat sessions where you all you can reflect on what happened that day and how you can prevent it from happening again.

It's called a hot wash.  It's where members of the response team, at all levels (management and downward), get together and talk about the response.  What worked and what didn't.  You write everything down and the start prioritizing what can be fixed and who can fix it.

For what it's worth, I was deployed there with the Red Cross, arriving on April 30.  I was operations management for two counties in the northeast corner of the state.  Six tornadoes including two EF-4 and one EF-5 went through the area causing tremendous damage and over 40 deaths.  I recognize that the area was devastated and that everyone was doing the best they could until additional resources arrived.  I also recognize that when there are long periods of 'peace time' (no disasters), interest in preparing goes away, as well as the money.  But after April 27, money was flowing like the <insert the name of a local river here>.  All of the local EMAs, FDs, PDs, EMS agencies, etc. should have had lists ready of the items needed to improve their preparedness.  This should have also been followed up by training and drills.

So, to answer your question... 


Rcoddington said:


> ...
> So scenario is you are an EMT with a well stocked Med kit and are familiar with areas worst hit. Would you go out and help as much as possible? Or take it easy?



No.  An MFR/EMT/Medic/Whomever who works with a department/agency should not be self deploying.  They should be part of a well prepared, well trained, well exercised department and respond as one.


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## Handsome Robb (Feb 23, 2013)

Prior proper planning prevents poor performance. 

You should see our county disaster/MCI setup. 

Communications are huge in first response, like you experienced, the loss of communications cripples a system. That's why there needs to be redundancy. Backup generators, backup dispatch centers, mobile command centers capable of dispatching. There are lots of ways to add redundancy to your agency's communication network. If they haven't addressed the problem I agree that it needs to be brought up, especially being in an area prone to disasters. 

We don't have tornados, or hurricanes, or tsunamis where I live. What we do have are massive wind storms and huge snow storms that would make the east coast want to crawl in a hole and die, I'm talking 60+ inches in a single storm. Does it happen all the time? No, but it's something we're prepared for. Even in smaller storms we staff extra trucks, every truck has chains and crews are trained to put them on. We have multiple backups to our comms center. There's a reason we can still cover our city in these situations. 

Not a natural disaster but take the Reno Air Race incident for example. We transported 50+ people from a single scene in an hour. During the event they had the entire 911 system backfilled and maintaining compliance within 30 minutes. We run annual MCI drills and have CEUs on MCI/Disaster management. After every incident all the agencies sit down and talk about what was done well, what we could do better and what needs to change in order for us to do it better next time. That's how it should be, rather than backpeddling and grasping at straws trying to "make it work" when something bad happens.


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## MrJones (Feb 23, 2013)

Never mind. 

Not worth the drama.


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## exodus (Mar 31, 2013)

DesertEMT66 said:


> The best way to respond to a major incident like that is to prepare. Have everything needed before it is needed. Once something does happen you should have a plan (general plan) and vital supplies to keep you working.
> 
> I'm in Cali so I don't have to worry about tornados, hurricanes, floods. Our main concern from the earth is earthquakes (still haven't figured out a way to predict them). So our main station and dispatch center (60 miles away) both have back up generators (not the small portable ones). We also have a mobile communications rig with the ability to dispatch from inside. We also have a MCI trailer with everything from backboards to duodote kits. We also have a "DemCo" Uhaul type vehicle (it's got flashy lights and the woo woos) with cots, portable showers, portable toilets, and other non medical equipment. And this is all for a private company.
> 
> ...



We also have a very large (trailer sized) CAT portable generator tucked away in the garage where our server room is.


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## mycrofft (Mar 31, 2013)

It wouldn't be a "disaster" if the plans and preparations worked, right? NO one can totally prepare and be equipped/planned/exercised for such a scenario.

My thought: call work and see if they can use you. If they say yes, grab all the cash on hand, two days' food plus, uniforms and clothes, basically be ready to operate for a couple days out of a station which may be out of electricity, water, sewer. If they say shelter in place for now, do it, but if you have some training make sure your house and your block are ok (see C.E.R.T. training to help with that).

I worked in Lincoln NE when the big tornado of Aug 1981 ran over North Platte. They called us in when they had assignments for us, which wasn't too long, and we sent a few units manned with folks familiar with N. Platte because road signs and many landmarks were gone over a span 200 yards wide and a mile long (plus). IF we'd all tried to motor there on our own, or clogged the station at Lincoln, it would have been a clustermug for everyone.


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## Bullets (Apr 4, 2013)

If youre not always prepared, youre never prepared.

NJ hadnt had a major hurricane strike land since the early 1900's (Vagabond Hurricane) yet the State Task Force, formed after 9/11, saw a need for a tropical storm/hurricane plan, and it has been implemented 4 times. 

We havent had a major incident at a port, a rail station or an airport, yet with one of the busiest airports, the 2nd busiest port and an extensive rail network, we have developed plans of response for each rail station, port, airport and hospital in the state. 

Does your state have pre-identified regional staging areas? Does your County? Does your Town? 

Have you pre-identified mutual aid? From other Towns? From other Counties? From other States? What specialty resources exist? in your town? Your County? Your State? Which agency houses them? What is their phone number? How do you contact them? What is their capability? Mass Care units? NIMS Type 1, 2, or 3? 

Have you pre-identified a helispot? a Helibase?

NJ owns 13 actual buses (as opposed to a NYC "Bus") designed to transport up to 20 supine patients. Each bus has a directory which includes the physical address and phone number of every hospital and lists their capabilities. They also carry a file of the phone number to every PSAP and regional dispatch center in the state.

Plans for power loss should be one of the first plans any rookie Emergency Manager can develop. Do you have a cache of generators? Where and how quickly can they deploy? 

Honestly FEMA has a ton of information on its website including lists of specialty vehicles and their NIMS type

http://www.fema.gov/library/viewRecord.do?id=6357

In 2013 there is no excuse to be unprepared for anything. Send your people down to Teex in College Station, TX. Send them to Anniston, AL, get them trained in NIMS and ICS, contact your Office Of Emergency Management and talk to them, what do they expect of you and what do you expect of them. Call other states and ask questions. NJ didnt know what do with a hurricane, so we called guys in Florida and Louisiana and asked how they handle this.


On a personal level:
Do you have a 24hr bag packed? Do you have a 72hr bag or an adjunct to the 24hr bag packed?  That means everything you need to be self-sufficient for 24-72 hours? Clothes, food, water, meds, money, supplies? Batteries, chargers, ect? Sleeping gear? You dont know if your ambulance will be home, so a sleeping bag and a ground pad in your 72hr kit.

I have a backpack that serves as my 24hr bag and a butt pack that i can add as my 72hr.  If the NJEMSTF gets deployed they expect me to bring up to 72hrs of stuff before we may get resupplied and they provide a list of what to bring. Have you done this with your employees/members?

Does your family have the same? If you are at work can they fend for themselves? so a 72 supply for each member of the family? Fuel for a generator for 72hrs? 

When society collapses we see looting, how will you and your family defend itself? Firearms and ammo? Training in such? 

There is a ton of Info on the web for all of this


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## mycrofft (Apr 4, 2013)

The second largest/busiest in tonnage port in America is Los Angeles/Long Beach (Calif)  harbor district (they are conjoined) and is designated as an inundation area in the event of a likely tsunami. Trade west of the Mississippi River and most Japanese vehicle* imports* will be shut off if that happens until port facilities are restored.

Note: the tsunami pulse from a quake off Palos Verdes or Catalina Island is theorized at 1 to 3 meters tall; sounds like "not much" until you think that this slug water is up to nine feet tall but it has a body of similar height solidly coming in (not in waves, one surge) which can be a *couple miles long*. Has to go somewhere...like Marina del Rey, San Pedro, etc.


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## Bullets (Apr 4, 2013)

mycrofft said:


> The second largest/busiest in tonnage port in America is Los Angeles/Long Beach (Calif)  harbor district (they are conjoined) and is designated as an inundation area in the event of a likely tsunami. Trade west of the Mississippi River and most Japanese vehicle* imports* will be shut off if that happens until port facilities are restored.
> 
> Note: the tsunami pulse from a quake off Palos Verdes or Catalina Island is theorized at 1 to 3 meters tall; sounds like "not much" until you think that this slug water is up to nine feet tall but it has a body of similar height solidly coming in (not in waves, one surge) which can be a *couple miles long*. Has to go somewhere...like Marina del Rey, San Pedro, etc.



Sorry, ours is 3rd busiest, its the biggest east of the Mississippi...Sheesh


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## mycrofft (Apr 5, 2013)

Bullets, if you separate LA and Long Beach, you are definitely #2. Then I think they are 3 and 5

I hate being called #2. 

ANYWAY, the point is that there are measures to take as part of basic prudence and due diligence, there are extraordinary measures you can't support indefinitely, and lots of room in between, but Ma Nature or Al Kaida (I know, al-Quaeda) or their relatives Sandy and Katrina will come along and spoil your plans.

Self-response is not an effective deal for long because you will run out of supplies really fast, and might even be arrested if you are found diddybopping around a disaster area without a responder ID or wristband or whatever.


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## Bullets (Apr 5, 2013)

mycrofft said:


> Bullets, if you separate LA and Long Beach, you are definitely #2. Then I think they are 3 and 5
> 
> I hate being called #2.
> 
> ...



Most recent numbers put LA #1, Long Beach #2, PONYNJ #3

I always wonder how areas where private contractors provide 911 response deal with and interface with municipal agencies. My experience in planning and responding was within the confines of a municipal back volunteer or paid agency. These agencies are involved with the preparations and daily business of the individual town, we know all the players  in the game, even down to the individual EMTs and cops. How does a giant organization like AMR handle responses when the local municipality doesn't know they guys working in their towns.


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## mycrofft (Apr 5, 2013)

I'm sure they have extensive and deeply thought-out PLANS.:rofl:


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## DrParasite (Apr 6, 2013)

Rcoddington said:


> In the beginning of the day communications were still up and everyone was aware of the hardest hit areas. After all power went down there was still some FM radio stations that would tell people to shelter when another tornado was inbound, but in the early afternoon.


Communications are paramount in any disaster (natural or man made).  If your communications went down, then  your comm center failed.  What's your backup plan for when it goes down?  do you have backup generators?  what happens when the backup generators fail?  then what?  What happens when your comm center roof (or entire building) is lifted up by a tornado and deposited 1 mile away from it's former location, than what?





Rcoddington said:


> The Doppler radar they were using was destroyed. So even early warning was no longer existent, but interestingly the majority of the tornados followed the same paths so a few single areas just were pounded and pounded (that's how you knew where todo).


you know, there is this new thing called the internet, and weather.com.  you might lose doppler radar, but you can track cloud formations.  and not only that, what was your areas plan in case the Doppler radar became non-functioning?





Rcoddington said:


> I believe this to be different from hurricane Sandys response because we had almost no warning this storm was going to hit, and y'all had quite awhile to get assets in place.


this is true, we had quite a bit of notice (2 or 3 days), put on additional staffing in additional vehicles, and staffed all of our special operations units, told people to plan to be at work for 3 days, so bring change of clothes, etc.     We still worked doubles and triples, and after you worked a triple (3rd 12 hour shift), you were ordered by management to take 12 hours of sleep off.

and apparently someone had a hunch a storm was coming to hit your area: http://www.spc.noaa.gov/products/outlook/archive/2011/day1otlk_20110426_1630.html

it's called using your resources, and spending some money to plan for the worst case scenario, and if it turns out to  be much ado about nothing, well, it was a good planning scenario.





Rcoddington said:


> Also it was to the point that just hopping on an ambulance doesn't really help when your going to fill up the entire ambulance with patients. There weren't enough trucks to transport everyone so people were actually driving down there interstate I'm pickup trucks with wounded in the back on the way to the hospital. Several patients were transported on doors (as makeshift backboards).


well, with your comm center down, the whole process has both hands tied behind yoru back to begin with..... so you fill the entire ambulance with patients, what's wrong with that?  if they are dying, take them to the hospital.  if they aren't dying, well, they probably don't need a hospital, at least not immediately.  remember the hospitals will be overwhelmed, and in addition to the storm related stuff, you still have the routine medical and trauma calls. 





Rcoddington said:


> Just to give you an idea this is a picture of an ambulance transporting as many backboards as possible to one of the areas.


yeah, I have seen that once..... we were tasked to go to all the hospitals in the county and pick up our backboards..... we were OOS, not taking any calls, and were using the back of the truck as a storage area, like a pickup truck. going into a disaster area with a ton of boards, strapping people down sounds uncomfortable, stupid, pointless, and abandonment of your patients.  you probably shouldn't advertise that much....


Rcoddington said:


> The ambulance company couldn't place you where they needed you because all the trucks were out and there was no communications to tell you where todo anyway.


again, what was your plan when communications went down?  and I don't mean you personally, I mean your agency, county, and state.

Where I work, we lost power during Superstorm Sandy.  The entire building, city, and county were totally blacked out.  And we had generators in place to power the comm center, the repeaters, and everything we would need to maintain operations.   We couldn't use the kitchen, and the lights in the bathrooms didn't work, but the radio system were functional.  And if our main channel went down, we could switch all operations to a backup channel, on a different set of repeaters, that was separate from our main system.  

And if that failed, we would request this truck be set up which can run a radio system on 4 tires.






Planning for the worst is time consuming, expensive, and can make someone think you are ultra paranoid.  Paying for all the training, buying equipment that you are hoping you will never use, and staffing specialty vehicles (as well as having additional spare vehicles that can be staffed on short notice to handle increased call volume) are signs of being prepared.  All too often, (especially for profit) agencies will staff with a 100% utilization rate, which is great for routine ops, but when the tornado hits, then what?

I won't be as critical as Veneficus was, because I think it's due to ignorance that your system failed rather than incompetence.  Based on what your described, the response was a disaster.  Will the next storm you face be a similar disaster, or will you be properly prepared?


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## Bullets (Apr 6, 2013)

DrParasite said:


>



Ahh god old TSU North, the back bench is really comfortable to sleep on....we had a stretch of coast where the towns had no idea what was happening in their neighboring town. We met that truck and set up dispatching operations, staging areas, and living quarters for EMS strike teams that covered 20 miles of coast


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## mycrofft (Apr 6, 2013)

Quote:
_*Originally Posted by Rcoddington  
The Doppler radar they were using was destroyed. So even early warning was no longer existent, but interestingly the majority of the tornados followed the same paths so a few single areas just were pounded and pounded (that's how you knew where todo).*_
you know, there is this new thing called the internet, and weather.com. you might lose doppler radar, but you can track cloud formations. and not only that, what was your areas plan in case the Doppler radar became non-functioning?
 Good point. At least one of this website's founders is a weather spotter. It takes some practice and learning to be a good weather spotter/reporter, and a system to accept and sort those reports. Or as the federal firefighters do, hire a meteorologist.


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## mycrofft (Apr 6, 2013)

My prejudices against mobile command posts and other concentrated large vehicular alternative functionality nodes:
1. Not exercised enough. (We had that problem with mobile medical facilities in the military leading into DESERT STORM, and wound up offering to leave them for the Saudi nation. They politely declined and we were required to bring them home (theirs were at least on paper very superior).
2. Hard to move when roads are constricted or gone, or even getting out of a small parking lot.
3. Extremely expensive if they are to make a difference, and items become outdated in today's market rapidly.
4. Require support of their own, like food, billeting, electricity, lighting, fuel, sanitary facilities, suitable surface to park and set up on, etc etc.
5. Big slab-sided trailers or motor homes are subject to wind forces, low overheads, and the thin sheet metal skins are not resistive to many puncturing forces (downed trees' branches, impact by tools or other vehicles) which admit water and can cause elecrical trouble and eventual mold and corrosion issues.

I prefer smaller more agile and distributed capacity (Jimmys, Suburbans, converted modular ambulances ) carrying tentage, generators, and personnel support supplies as well as picks, shovels, axes, chain saws, and advanced firstaid supplies.


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