# Police Based Paramedics



## nhvtmedic (Apr 14, 2010)

Anyone know of departments in the U.S. that use police based paramedics? I only know of a couple and i know there are more. Thanks!

Andrew


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## DrParasite (Apr 14, 2010)

for clarification, are you talking about armed and trained police officers who are assigned to an ambulance, and respond all day to EMS calls, or are you referring to police departments that run EMS using civilian EMS personnel?


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## nhvtmedic (Apr 14, 2010)

Police officers who are paramedics that respond to EMS calls during their shifts. They still work regular police patrol but also take EMS calls as ALS.


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## EMSLaw (Apr 14, 2010)

I don't think you're likely to find such a thing.  That would be a disaster for staffing, as it takes officers off the street to ride ambulances to the hospital.  There are a few police-based EMS systems in my area of NJ, but they all use Community Service Officers to work as EMTs.

I suspect the only full-time Medic/Police combo you'd see would be on SWAT teams and similar groups.  But that's just my suspicion, I could be wrong.


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## Shishkabob (Apr 14, 2010)

EMSLaw said:


> I don't think you're likely to find such a thing.  That would be a disaster for staffing, as it takes officers off the street to ride ambulances to the hospital.  There are a few police-based EMS systems in my area of NJ, but they all use Community Service Officers to work as EMTs.
> 
> I suspect the only full-time Medic/Police combo you'd see would be on SWAT teams and similar groups.  But that's just my suspicion, I could be wrong.


Nope.


City of Highland Park, Texas, a DPS agency, uses armed police medics.







(The red patch on his right shoulder is a Texas Licensed Paramedic patch... and you can see the handgun)



You'll find them.  They're rare, but they exist and I know of a couple.


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## EMSLaw (Apr 14, 2010)

Eh, that's Texas, they arm kindergarten teachers down there.


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## TransportJockey (Apr 14, 2010)

NM Used to have this out in Rio Rancho. They were Dept of Public Safety and did Fire, PD, and EMS duties pretty much all at once.


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## Tincanfireman (Apr 14, 2010)

One of the best known LEO/Medic programs is the Maryland State Police Aviation Unit that works out of Shock/Trauma at U of M.  As an aside, the full name of Maryland's Shock Trauma is the R. Adams Cowley Shock Trauma Center, named for the father of emergency medicine and the originator of the "Golden Hour" concept.


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## Twix623 (Apr 14, 2010)

Tincanfireman said:


> One of the best known LEO/Medic programs is the Maryland State Police Aviation Unit that works out of Shock/Trauma at U of M.  As an aside, the full name of Maryland's Shock Trauma is the R. Adams Cowley Shock Trauma Center, named for the father of emergency medicine and the originator of the "Golden Hour" concept.



If you've never been there, it's an amazing place to visit. It's one of the only hospitals right now dedicated to only Trauma. 24 hours a day they have amazing cases. I actually transported a patient there once by ground. It was about a 45 minute drive on I-95 with a priority 1 suspected spinal trauma. Because our closest level II trauma center was filled with patients they couldn't handle it and referred us to Shock Trauma.

Not only does the MSP troopers have Paramedic/Cops, but also Eagle 1, 2 & 3 of the United States Park Police, they too have amazing capabilities with river rescues and more. From what I hear, it takes a lot of time to move up the ranks. From being a street cop or trooper for a year or two, and slowly move up the ranks once you get your paramedic.


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## berkeman (Apr 14, 2010)

Sunnyvale, CA, uses combination Police/Firefigter/EMTs (but not Medics, AFAIK):

http://www.sunnyvaledps.com/recruiting.htm



> To become a Public Safety Officer (PSO) requires a level of dedication to success not required of most careers. A Public Safety Officer performs the role of Police Officer, Firefighter and Emergency Medical Technician (EMT), something accomplished by separate departments in most municipalities. The role of a Police Officer in society is not to be taken lightly, it is a personal commitment that one must make to live a life that is beyond reproach. A Firefighters job requires a high level of bravery and skill to accomplish a dangerous mission. And EMT's need the motivation and interest to care for people in distress during their most difficult moment in life. The job is a serious one, and requires a level of dedication that is sustained throughout your career.



I still remember the first time I saw a bunch of police cars skidding to a stop outside a building where the fire alarm was going off, and watching them open the trunks on their Crown Vics, and pull out their turnouts!


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## EMSLaw (Apr 14, 2010)

berkeman said:


> I still remember the first time I saw a bunch of police cars skidding to a stop outside a building where the fire alarm was going off, and watching them open the trunks on their Crown Vics, and pull out their turnouts!



As opposed to what police normally do...  Park directly in front of the fire scene, get out, and say, "Wow!  A fire!"


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## nhvtmedic (Apr 14, 2010)

Thanks everyone! I know there are more that operate in this fashion. Hopefully ideas keep trickling in.


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## Tincanfireman (Apr 14, 2010)

EMSLaw said:


> As opposed to what police normally do... Park directly in front of the fire scene, get out, and say, "Wow! A fire!"


 
...and it wasn't even a fireman that said it first!  Thank you!


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## EMSLaw (Apr 14, 2010)

Tincanfireman said:


> ...and it wasn't even a fireman that said it first!  Thank you!



Only because we will then get a call from the PD dispatcher that our ambulance, parked two blocks away, is too close.


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## NomadicMedic (Apr 14, 2010)

Nassau Long island: http://www.police.co.nassau.ny.us/eab.htm 






The town of Steilacoom Washington, south of Tacoma, uses PSO (Public Safety Officers) http://www.townofsteilacoom.com/town_offices/public_safety.htm


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## 46Young (Apr 14, 2010)

n7lxi said:


> Nassau Long island: http://www.police.co.nassau.ny.us/eab.htm
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The few PSO depts I've seen typically exist in areas of affluence, with a relatively small population, mostly white, with a median age in the upper 30's to low 40's. 

http://www.city-data.com/city/Highland-Park-Texas.html

http://www.city-data.com/city/Steilacoom-Washington.html

This would help to explain the public's acceptance and trust of the police doing EMS in their homes, and would also explain the need for such a combined dept. The alternative would be volunteer EMS, volunteer fire, or some combination of the two.


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## DV_EMT (Apr 14, 2010)

I know that there are many sheriff departments that use Medics as LEO. I am friends with an EMT/Chaplain for the SB Sheriff Department. Note that SB county uses EMT's/Medics for their SWAT team and SAR team. They're out there, they can just be hard to find. 

I did see one on COPS too. He had both a Sheriff and Medic Back Patch on his tactical vest.


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## DV_EMT (Apr 14, 2010)

I'll also note that in Highland Park, I believe SMU PD has EMT/Medic's on their staff because of all the Alcohol and Drug O/D calls they get in the freshman dorms (one reason I decided to become and EMT [soon to be in medic school]).


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## FLEMTP (Apr 14, 2010)

Genesee County Sheriff in Flint, MI has Deputy-Paramedics

Ingham County Sheriff in Mason, MI has deputy-Paramedics


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## mycrofft (Apr 14, 2010)

*CAlif Highwat PAtrol are mstly trained as "first responders" and carry a big kit...*

No idea how well it works, but the absence of reports olf mishaps either measn they are doing well, or not doling it at all.
The first dedicated "rescue squad" in a large US city was NYPD, long before EMT's. They had first aid training. They also carried the round canvas trampolines for peple to jump onto off buildings.
(There's something for your private ride!).


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## medicdan (Apr 14, 2010)

Having crosstrained LEO/EMTs has not gone well for us around here...

http://www.boston.com/news/local/ma...8/12/12/hamilton_police_emts_accused_of_scam/


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## nemedic (Apr 14, 2010)

though that is not necessarily indicative of the concept of and practice not being doable. The issue with the Hamilton PD/EMS is a bad apple over time causing the whole bushel to rot


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## firecoins (Apr 14, 2010)

Greenburg Police Westchester NY not only has cops who respond with the ambulance as paramedics, they also pull cars over with the ambulance.


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## 46Young (Apr 14, 2010)

firecoins said:


> Greenburg Police Westchester NY not only has cops who respond with the ambulance as paramedics, they also pull cars over with the ambulance.



That's funny. You know how many times I've witnessed reckless driving and motorists blowing past me while driving code? It would be both hilarious and satisfying to slap a ticket on some idiot yakking away on a cell phone driving erratically (it's illegal to talk on cell phones in NY for those that don't know).


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## firecoins (Apr 14, 2010)

46Young said:


> That's funny. You know how many times I've witnessed reckless driving and motorists blowing past me while driving code? It would be both hilarious and satisfying to slap a ticket on some idiot yakking away on a cell phone driving erratically (it's illegal to talk on cell phones in NY for those that don't know).



Its funny to watch Greenburg Police try to pull someone over with the ambulance.  The car moves to the right but doesn't stop, thinking they are just getting out of the way of the ambulance. When the ambulance pulls behind them, they pull to the left.  So they end up with 2 tickets, 1 for speeding and 1 for failure to yield to an emergency vehicle.


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## 46Young (Apr 14, 2010)

firecoins said:


> Its funny to watch Greenburg Police try to pull someone over with the ambulance.  The car moves to the right but doesn't stop, thinking they are just getting out of the way of the ambulance. When the ambulance pulls behind them, they pull to the left.  So they end up with 2 tickets, 1 for speeding and 1 for failure to yield to an emergency vehicle.



Have they caused any accidents by doing that yet?


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## MMiz (Apr 15, 2010)

I know that the Ingham County Sheriff in Michigan is Police Office/Paramedic.  Last I saw they were still using impalas and Tahoes.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Apr 15, 2010)

no offense but you guys who think the fire department based EMS is terrible.... WTF are people thinking with LE based EMS? IMO Worst thing I have ever herd period.


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## wyoskibum (Apr 15, 2010)

amerelman said:


> Anyone know of departments in the U.S. that use police based paramedics? I only know of a couple and i know there are more. Thanks!
> 
> Andrew



Davis County Sheriff, Utah have LEO/Paramedics.


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## wolfwyndd (Apr 15, 2010)

schulz said:


> no offense but you guys who think the fire department based EMS is terrible.... WTF are people thinking with LE based EMS? IMO Worst thing I have ever herd period.


I'm afraid I have to agree here.  I'm not sure it's the WORST idea I've heard, but I do have personal issues with LE based patient care.  When a patient is telling an EMT (that's also a cop) that he's snorted three or four lines of coke and is overdosing, that COULD affect what happens to the patient after the emergency of saving their life is over.  Or what if the patient DOESN'T tell the EMT (that's also a cop) that he just snorted a couple lines of coke because he's afraid of what the COP will do to him?  Just an example, obviously, but you can see where I'm going with that.  IMO there's gotta be some REALLY strong lines dividing 'patient care' and 'law enforcement.'


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## Shishkabob (Apr 15, 2010)

46Young said:


> (it's illegal to talk on cell phones in NY for those that don't know).


Wow, must make traveling business away from the office crappy


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## 8jimi8 (Apr 15, 2010)

EMSLaw said:


> Eh, that's Texas, they arm kindergarten teachers down there.



2nd ammendment buddy, use it or lose it.


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## EMSLaw (Apr 15, 2010)

Linuss said:


> Wow, must make traveling business away from the office crappy



You just have to use a headset or earpiece.  It's part of the crackdown on distracted driving in a lot of states.


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## 8jimi8 (Apr 15, 2010)

a firearm in every car would make for much less distraction ...

and a LOT more courtesy!


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## Shishkabob (Apr 15, 2010)

EMSLaw said:


> You just have to use a headset or earpiece.  It's part of the crackdown on distracted driving in a lot of states.



I was commenting on cell phone use period, not just use in a car.  I know that's not what he meant, but I'm a smart-butt.


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## 46Young (Apr 15, 2010)

Linuss said:


> Wow, must make traveling business away from the office crappy



Nice. I guess I could've worded that a little better.


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## medicdan (Apr 15, 2010)




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## Shishkabob (Apr 15, 2010)

Copy-cat!


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## FLEMTP (Apr 15, 2010)

schulz said:


> no offense but you guys who think the fire department based EMS is terrible.... WTF are people thinking with LE based EMS? IMO Worst thing I have ever herd period.



I can see where a couple of you are coming from...to an extent. I worked extensively with the Genesee County Sheriff Dept Deputy-Paramedics.

In my experience, most of the time they would stress the fact that they want the person to get the most appropriate treatment, and would set their "law enforcement" duties aside, within reason, to make sure someone was treated and care for in an appropriate way. For the guy that snorted 4 or 5 lines of coke, they would tell them... look, i dont care about the coke... or other drugs.. just tell me whats up so i can help you. Im a paramedic right now, not a cop.. and they would keep that word. Its called officer discretion...plus you cannot arrest someone for possession of a drug if they've already used it and you didnt witness them in possession. 

There are laws allowing you to arrest someone for being under the influence of a drug in some states and locations... but usually in those locations, Law enforcement (whether paramedic or not) will use some common sense... if someone's overdosed on cocaine or is having cardiac related or medical type issues from a drug ingestion, LEOs on scene realize that the medical problem is problem enough and usually just stress to the person they are there to make sure they get the right help.

I think that ALL LEO's should have EMS training, at least to the level of EMT. Here we get many calls to "check a patient for law enforcement" because the LEO's have no EMS training, and need us to check the patient for liability reasons prior to an arrest... plus the extra education in pharmacology would certainly benefit the LEO's when they have someone taking a medicine they've never heard of.. rather than calling EMS to identify the type of medicine and its effects, they have the knowledge and education on hand. 

The other HUGE benefit to LEO's cross trained as medics is that LEO's are on constant patrol in most locations, they either get on scene of a medical/trauma call first, or end up initiating the calls themselves because they are out in public and visible whereas EMS/Fire are typically posted in a specific location or station, and can take several minutes longer than LEO to arrive on scene. 

The flip side of that, when paramedics are also certified as LEO's and assigned to an ambulance, it gives them greater leeway to get things done... for example.. you're working a car accident and someone blows right through the emergency vehicles on scene and endangers the personnel on scene, there is no need to wait for law enforcement to arrive and handle the situation... you now have the legal authority to stop the vehicle (even if its yelling at them to stop the vehicle or flagging them to the side of the road) and cite the driver if appropriate. 

It also would improve EMS providers sense of scene security. I see so many times where EMS providers are on scene dealing with a patient, and they get tunnel vision and dont notice other people walking up to the scene right away... or if a call goes bad, rather than pulling back and hoping no one on the EMS crew gets injured, they now know how to defend themselves in a legal, and appropriate manner. 

I think the BIGGEST benefit to this would be that EMS providers would be subject to the same hiring, background and fitness standards that LEO's are subjected to. Would weed out a lot of the bad apples we hear about in EMS, to an extent, because we all know that there are still some bad apples in law enforcement, but overall, I feel that there are fewer bad apples in law enforcement per capita than in EMS simply due to the rigorous hiring process involved with LEO's

I could go on all day with examples of the benefits behind cross training in EMS and Law Enforcement, but I hope ya'll get the idea where I'm coming from. 

Just so you guys know my background, I have had some Law enforcement experience , and lots of EMS experience... but not in a combined role.

I think as long as you have clear cut boundaries entailing when its appropriate to act in a primary law enforcement or a primary paramedic type mode or mindset, its a great tool and awesome training for either law enforcement or EMS to have available to them.


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## Hal9000 (Apr 15, 2010)

wyoskibum said:


> Davis County Sheriff, Utah have LEO/Paramedics.





True, the system here in the Weber/Davis area is interesting to say the least.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Apr 16, 2010)

I can understand some points from those of you that support this structure, but I still stand by it being a terrible idea. 

I could rant and rave all night about many things but I will just name a few.

1. Many of our patients are low income high risk populace. A large portion of those folks dislike the police and do not trust them. The police also feel the same way about many of them.

2. Those LEO's ignoring the fact that there pt's have been taking illegal drugs and breaking the law are breaking there LEO oath. Paramedics and LEO's are two completely different professions just like nurses and LEO's or Doctors and LEO's, would you consider combining those two professions? To much conflict of interest. 

3. Mentality, its *** backwards. As I have stated before LEO's have became angry(and threatened me) at me in the past because I have treated a DUI driver/pt. first before the sober MVC victim due to his/her priority and MOI.

4. The picture above of the Paramedic police officer beating someone with a night stick is a perfect example. Its the most idiotic *** backwards job combination I have ever herd of in my life. The only exception to this being a tactical medic for CERT/SWAT operations which is the only example of a LEO medic I think is a good idea.


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## FLEMTP (Apr 16, 2010)

double post my apologies


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## FLEMTP (Apr 16, 2010)

schulz said:


> I can understand some points from those of you that support this structure, but I still stand by it being a terrible idea.



While I appreciate your right to your own opinions... I fail to see the logic in your arguments. See below



> I could rant and rave all night about many things but I will just name a few.
> 
> 1. Many of our patients are low income high risk populace. A large portion of those folks dislike the police and do not trust them. The police also feel the same way about many of them.



Do you trust the low income high risk populace? Do you trust the high income low risk populace? You should consider the fact that if LEO's do no trust them, it is with good reason. This is a situation in which cross training would benefit you and other EMS providers by giving you a different perspective that would allow you to ultimately be safer in performing your duties, even if just giving you a greater situational awareness.




> 2. Those LEO's ignoring the fact that there pt's have been taking illegal drugs and breaking the law are breaking there LEO oath. Paramedics and LEO's are two completely different professions just like nurses and LEO's or Doctors and LEO's, would you consider combining those two professions? To much conflict of interest.



Ahh.. so its wrong for a LEO to not arrest or cite someone committing a crime? Just like medicine, law enforcement is not so black and white. Would you prefer a ticket for speeding when you're stopped... or a warning? By your logic you would insist that a citation be issued or an arrest be made every time a LEO witnesses you commit a violation of law.

Comparing a doctor's role with a LEO's role does not make sense. Doctors and nurses typically do not respond (with or without lights and sirens)to the scene of a situation  or call for service and render aid. Both paramedics and LEO's do... and both paramedics and LEO's end up on the same call for service a majority of the time. Its like taking your car into a repair shop, but having to call for 2 mechanics.. one to repair your brakes and one to repair your engine... why not allow the same person to do both to avoid an overabundance of resources being used on a single situation?




> 3. Mentality, its *** backwards. As I have stated before LEO's have became angry(and threatened me) at me in the past because I have treated a DUI driver/pt. first before the sober MVC victim due to his/her priority and MOI.



Yet another situation in which cross training would benefit both you and the LEO. If those same LEO's were trained in EMS, they would understand the logic you used to reach your treatment decision. Many times they look at the situation and dont understand why you decided to treat the drunk driver over the injured victim... just like you might not understand why a LEO felt the need to deploy his taser on an unarmed subject who wont listen to what he says.



> 4. The picture above of the Paramedic police officer beating someone with a night stick is a perfect example. Its the most idiotic *** backwards job combination I have ever herd of in my life. The only exception to this being a tactical medic for CERT/SWAT operations which is the only example of a LEO medic I think is a good idea.



Going by your logic, a SWAT medic would be the biggest conflict of interest imaginable. In most situations, the role of the SWAT trained paramedic is to support the functions of the SWAT team members, and protect their well being before all others. In a situation where a SWAT team makes entry into a home for a high risk warrant for example, and there are shots fired, the SWAT medic is to assure the safety and well being of his team prior to engaging in the lifesaving efforts of any other injured people on scene. In fact the SWAT medic might find themselves having to be the one to pull the trigger that fires the deadly shot. So, if your SWAT team had to use deadly force to stop a threat made on the team, but a SWAT team member became injured in the process, your duty is to the SWAT team member first, and the civilian that was shot second. This goes exactly against your rationale used in the beginning points of your post. 

So, one must assume either you are not aware of the duties and responsibilities of a SWAT medic ( who is many times a fully crosstrained LEO and paramedic) or you have a hypocritical argument where you do not support cross trained medic/LEO's but you do at the same time.

Please do not take this as a personal attack by any means, I like to debate and engage in thought provoking conversation. I was trying to understand your logic, but was unable, and would appreciate further clarification of your points, based on my responses.


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## wolfwyndd (Apr 16, 2010)

FLEMTP said:


> I can see where a couple of you are coming from...to an extent. I worked extensively with the Genesee County Sheriff Dept Deputy-Paramedics.
> [snipped for brevity]
> I could go on all day with examples of the benefits behind cross training in EMS and Law Enforcement, but I hope ya'll get the idea where I'm coming from.


Wow.  Thanks.  That's probably the most thorough, and convincing, argument I've heard for LE based EMS.  Still not convinced, but understand it much better now.  

I know Ohio actually recently passed a law that says that all LEO's need to be trained to the First Responder NREMT level.  I'm completely ok with that because, as you said, a majority of the time, they are first on scene so they can do some basic things till the ambulance gets there.  Of course, I know of quite a few jurisdictions are stalling on this too because they just don't want to do it.  I know we've had a couple of cardiac arrests were by the time we've gotten there, the cops have already started CPR for us.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Apr 17, 2010)

well that sucks, my session timed out and I lost everything I just tried to post. Ill just give it to you in a nut shell.

Police officers and Paramedics are two completly diffrent jobs, with 2 completly diffrent missions. Thats why cops have a degree in Criminal Justice and Paramedics have one in science.

To take a cop and put him through 18 months or more of Paramedic school and maybe even require atleast an AAS in addtion to his departments degree,education and training standards for the LEO side is excessive. 

Then to take the same cop and stick him on a 911 ALS ambulance is a waste. They are two completly diffrent career paths, 2 completly diffrent educational and training content, 2 completly diffrent mind sets and they attract two completly diffrent people for the most part. 

If you think people on this forum bash fire fighter Paramedics running 911 ambulances, I can only imgane LEO Paramedics running 911 (if that became the mainstream, which it is not thank god, for a reason) 

As Paramedics we are health care providers.... the only thing we share in common with the police are scence operations and driving... but %95 of Paramedic text is medical... WE DO have more in common with Nurses and Doctors because they are other health care providers.

SWAT/CERT and TEMS is a competly diffrent subject I will start a new thread on if you like. We are only dicussing patrol police officers and 911 ALS Paramedics for now right?

Hell if you want to combind Police and Paramedics we might as well cross train them as fire fighter also right? Have just 1 super emergency respoder thats a jack of all trades and master of none!


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## Shishkabob (Apr 17, 2010)

schulz said:


> Hell if you want to combind Police and Paramedics we might as well cross train them as fire fighter also right? Have just 1 super emergency respoder thats a jack of all trades and master of none!



They exist, and I've heard no complaints about those agencies.


But hey, if we can have FF/P why can't we have LEO/P?  LE is a much better fit for EMS anyhow.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Apr 17, 2010)

Or why not just have a Paramedic? Doesn't that make the most since? Thats what they do in the UK and Australia and most other modern well trained EMS systems. Those guys have bachelors degree IN EMERGENCY MEDICINE! Dosent that make more since?

Or how about this.... Require 2 years of training for the paramedic side, 2 years for the police side and 2 years for the fire side.... an AAS for the Paramedic training a Fire science degree for the fire side and a criminal justice degree for the police side, then combined all those into a masters degree, offer the same rate of pay any one of those profession make now and let me know how many people you can recruit.

We should focus more on our own profession and getting up to speed with the rest of the modern world before we even consider main like this.


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## Shishkabob (Apr 17, 2010)

Yes, it does make more sense* and that's what I am for, but alas, people argue for fire based EMS so my counter-point is why not LE based EMS, to which no one has yet to come up with a valid reason to have fire based and not LE based EMS.


*sorry it was bugging me


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## ExpatMedic0 (Apr 25, 2010)

This was an interesting topic. I was just wondering if anyone else had anything else to add?
Even though I still disagree with the idea, some good points where brought up.


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## VentMedic (Apr 25, 2010)

schulz said:


> Or how about this.... Require 2 years of training for the paramedic side, 2 years for the police side and 2 years for the fire side.... an AAS for the Paramedic training a Fire science degree for the fire side and a criminal justice degree for the police side, then combined all those into a masters degree, offer the same rate of pay any one of those profession make now and let me know how many people you can recruit.


 
Considering the shift in job markets, there are now several entering LE and even health care with Masters degrees. California just had an article where many of their recent recruits were from other professions with advanced degrees and were taking a cut in pay to make a career change. The PDs are welcoming an older and better educated recruit. Nursing is also seeing more people doing the Masters entry level programs by using previous degrees to change careers. While the experience will still need to be obtained, there is a difference in maturity from the older recruits. 

Some young people also do spend 4 years in college obtaining a degree in Criminal Justice until they are old enough to join some of the PDs which prefer one to be 21. A Masters is then not that far out of reach and the departments will generally pay for their education. EMS should be so lucky to have the entry level education that PDs see form their new recruits who do start at the bottom in an academy but may have plans for their future. Once one has obtained a Masters degree, getting a Paramedic cert probably would require very little effort since the study discipline has already been developed. 

Right now, the Paramedic is still a certificate in most of the U.S. Even Oregon seems to have its exceptions since that state is allowing you to finish your Associates degree while working as a Paramedic. Thus, one could actually get a LE cert, FF cert and Paramedic cert in 18 months. They could then decide what they wanted to do later or get picked up by a PS department like Sunnyvale. But, Sunnyvale will also hire someone and put them through the necessary academies.

By your logic, the U.S. should not have any teachers with more than a certificate or Associates degree either since that profession is notorious for low pay. Yet, teachers somehow manage to have at least a Bachelors and probably a Masters as well as doctorate degrees. Could it be the way they feel about their chosen profession and want to maintain a high professional status for the benefit of their students even if the pay is not there?


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## EMT11KDL (Apr 27, 2010)

amerelman said:


> Anyone know of departments in the U.S. that use police based paramedics? I only know of a couple and i know there are more. Thanks!
> 
> Andrew



http://www.co.davis.ut.us/sheriff/default.cfm

Davis County, UT... they are a very good agency.  Every Sheriff Deputy is a Utah Paramedic.


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## Packman (Apr 28, 2010)

n7lxi said:


> Nassau Long island: http://www.police.co.nassau.ny.us/eab.htm
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## KiloSierra (Jun 30, 2014)

*late response*



Twix623 said:


> If you've never been there, it's an amazing place to visit. It's one of the only hospitals right now dedicated to only Trauma. 24 hours a day they have amazing cases. I actually transported a patient there once by ground. It was about a 45 minute drive on I-95 with a priority 1 suspected spinal trauma. Because our closest level II trauma center was filled with patients they couldn't handle it and referred us to Shock Trauma.
> 
> Not only does the MSP troopers have Paramedic/Cops, but also Eagle 1, 2 & 3 of the United States Park Police, they too have amazing capabilities with river rescues and more. From what I hear, it takes a lot of time to move up the ranks. From being a street cop or trooper for a year or two, and slowly move up the ranks once you get your paramedic.



Any chance I could get an update on the MSP LEO job? Im finding that those jobs are disappearing as most places are cutting the medic part. Is its a good job/ do they take care of their people? any info helps.


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## NomadicMedic (Jun 30, 2014)

https://www.mdsp.org/Careers/TrooperMedic.aspx We just had one of our candidates leave and join MSP. he couldn't be happier.


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## KiloSierra (Jun 30, 2014)

DEmedic said:


> https://www.mdsp.org/Careers/TrooperMedic.aspx We just had one of our candidates leave and join MSP. he couldn't be happier.



Thanks for the reply. I read and re-read the MSP's site and it seemed vague and rather Army… "You may then submit a request to transfer into the Aviation Command", Are they always approved? Does that mean I may end up working the road as a regular trooper? Or does it mean I may work as a Trooper medic on the road? Already having my NREMT Paramedic I WILL be keeping a medic job.
I am just terrified of uncle sam sticking it to me again, saying "oh yeah you'll do ____".. then I end up packing and unpacking connexes for months….


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## NomadicMedic (Jun 30, 2014)

From what I understand, if you're recruited in as a medic you WILL be a medic. But, you still have to do cop stuff.


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## EMDispatch (Jun 30, 2014)

DEmedic said:


> From what I understand, if you're recruited in as a medic you WILL be a medic. But, you still have to do cop stuff.



That's correct, rumors are due to lack of hires, hey have considered dropping the cop requirements, but I would not count on it happening. Currently in their new copters, they are flying with 2 medics on board, 1 paramedic, and a flight trooper in training at at least an EMT level. What they have done is lowered the recruiting standards.  You used to have to be a paramedic with several years of experience now you just need to be an EMT with several years of experience.


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## medicsb (Jul 2, 2014)

ExpatMedic0 said:


> no offense but you guys who think the fire department based EMS is terrible.... WTF are people thinking with LE based EMS?



Seriously...


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## Tigger (Jul 2, 2014)

EMDispatch said:


> That's correct, rumors are due to lack of hires, hey have considered dropping the cop requirements, but I would not count on it happening. Currently in their new copters, they are flying with 2 medics on board, 1 paramedic, and a flight trooper in training at at least an EMT level. What they have done is lowered the recruiting standards.  You used to have to be a paramedic with several years of experience now you just need to be an EMT with several years of experience.



Eek.


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## NomadicMedic (Jul 2, 2014)

The good thing is, medics on the Maryland helicopters get a lot of experience, quickly. Those guys fly everybody.


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## EMDispatch (Jul 2, 2014)

Tigger said:


> Eek.



They're working to improve their system, but the only advantage the troopers provide is speed. Which is often not a factor considering travel times.


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## medicsb (Jul 2, 2014)

DEmedic said:


> The good thing is, medics on the Maryland helicopters get a lot of experience, quickly. Those guys fly everybody.



They're call volume has dropped.  4500 in 2006 down to 2900 last year (with 7 helicopters in service).


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## Tigger (Jul 2, 2014)

SEVEN?!?

Holy crap. I had no idea their program was so big. And you'd think with how big those helicopters are and the fact they do a fair number of flights that they'd want to be able to fly with two providers.


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## chaz90 (Jul 2, 2014)

Tigger said:


> SEVEN?!?
> 
> Holy crap. I had no idea their program was so big. And you'd think with how big those helicopters are and the fact they do a fair number of flights that they'd want to be able to fly with two providers.


I believe their new helicopters are staffed with two trooper medics.


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## EMDispatch (Jul 2, 2014)

chaz90 said:


> I believe their new helicopters are staffed with two trooper medics.



At least on the shore, they're a flight medic and a 2nd in training. They will drop the 2nd for a local paramedic if the situation requires. I'd have to watch the training video again, but I believe they can also fly with the ground paramedic as a 3rd.


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## chaz90 (Jul 2, 2014)

EMDispatch said:


> At least on the shore, they're a flight medic and a 2nd in training. They will drop the 2nd for a local paramedic if the situation requires. I'd have to watch the training video again, but I believe they can also fly with the ground paramedic as a 3rd.


Right, I was more replying to Tigger's thought that they'd want to fly with two. I've had very little interaction with MSP Aviation, so most of what I'm talking about is third hand.


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## EMDispatch (Jul 2, 2014)

chaz90 said:


> Right, I was more replying to Tigger's thought that they'd want to fly with two. I've had very little interaction with MSP Aviation, so most of what I'm talking about is third hand.



Gotcha,

The other big thing to remember about MSP is that they are not just medevac units. 20% of their calls are SAR and LE related only.


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## rescue1 (Jul 3, 2014)

Packman said:


> n7lxi said:
> 
> 
> > Nassau Long island: http://www.police.co.nassau.ny.us/eab.htm
> ...


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## Crackcicle (Jul 4, 2014)

rescue1 said:


> Packman said:
> 
> 
> > That seems a little bit inefficient....
> ...


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## CentralCalEMT (Jul 4, 2014)

Is it as inefficient as a 3-4 person engine company, 2 person ALS squad, and two person ambulance on every call like some systems do?


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## rescue1 (Jul 4, 2014)

CentralCalEMT said:


> Is it as inefficient as a 3-4 person engine company, 2 person ALS squad, and two person ambulance on every call like some systems do?



I would say it's equally inefficient, yeah. Regardless of the amount of people on each piece of apparatus, the fact is you're taking 3 of them out of service to deal with one call. 

I think fire department (BLS!) first response is appropriate for some calls, depending on the system in place, and I think ALS chase units may even be better than medic/basic trucks, but I think the LA County/Southern CA EMS system is set up to be the most inefficient use of fire and EMS resources that I've seen. It's like its designed to make everyone involved as unhappy as possible.


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## gonefishing (Jul 4, 2014)

CentralCalEMT said:


> Is it as inefficient as a 3-4 person engine company, 2 person ALS squad, and two person ambulance on every call like some systems do?


(Cough) L.A. county........


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## gonefishing (Jul 4, 2014)

rescue1 said:


> I would say it's equally inefficient, yeah. Regardless of the amount of people on each piece of apparatus, the fact is you're taking 3 of them out of service to deal with one call.
> 
> I think fire department (BLS!) first response is appropriate for some calls, depending on the system in place, and I think ALS chase units may even be better than medic/basic trucks, but I think the LA County/Southern CA EMS system is set up to be the most inefficient use of fire and EMS resources that I've seen. It's like its designed to make everyone involved as unhappy as possible.


Have to agree.   Alot of calls don't require 6 fire fighters to stand around and do nothing.  Big red rolled out to every call with a squad.  Why? To make it seem like they serve a purpose.   Its all over powerful unions and the justification of tax payer spending.


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## EpiEMS (Jul 4, 2014)

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201..._firefighters_at_odds_over_medical_calls.html

Fascinating example of a problem: “We don’t need to justify our jobs. Paramedics have to justify their jobs. They’ve got one role to play, and that’s it."

Now, in the US:


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## Angel (Jul 4, 2014)

gonefishing said:


> Have to agree.   Alot of calls don't require 6 fire fighters to stand around and do nothing.  Big red rolled out to every call with a squad.  Why? To make it seem like they serve a purpose.   Its all over powerful unions and the justification of tax payer spending.



this


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## MonkeyArrow (Jul 4, 2014)

But isn't a three to four person engine company responding to appropriately triaged calls just a more efficient use of available of personnel as opposed to assigning a second medic unit. Say that you're dispatched to a code/trauma/resp. distress call, I surrey hope that you're not trying to work that code with your two person ambulance crew. Assuming you don't have a mechanical compression device or a ventilator, one will have to bag and one will have to compress. That leaves you with no one to do...the rest. Instead of pulling a second medic crew and leaving their first due area uncovered, it will serve the community much better so send an engine, which probably wasn't going to be fighting a fire anyways, to assist the original medic.


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## gonefishing (Jul 5, 2014)

MonkeyArrow said:


> But isn't a three to four person engine company responding to appropriately triaged calls just a more efficient use of available of personnel as opposed to assigning a second medic unit. Say that you're dispatched to a code/trauma/resp. distress call, I surrey hope that you're not trying to work that code with your two person ambulance crew. Assuming you don't have a mechanical compression device or a ventilator, one will have to bag and one will have to compress. That leaves you with no one to do...the rest. Instead of pulling a second medic crew and leaving their first due area uncovered, it will serve the community much better so send an engine, which probably wasn't going to be fighting a fire anyways, to assist the original medic.


With todays dispatcher training usually its easy to figure out the resources for the call.


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## Angel (Jul 5, 2014)

MonkeyArrow said:


> But isn't a three to four person engine company responding to appropriately triaged calls just a more efficient use of available of personnel as opposed to assigning a second medic unit. Say that you're dispatched to a code/trauma/resp. distress call, I surrey hope that you're not trying to work that code with your two person ambulance crew. Assuming you don't have a mechanical compression device or a ventilator, one will have to bag and one will have to compress. That leaves you with no one to do...the rest. Instead of pulling a second medic crew and leaving their first due area uncovered, it will serve the community much better so send an engine, which probably wasn't going to be fighting a fire anyways, to assist the original medic.



in my area, the engine which can have 1-3 medics (3 person engine) is dispatched to EVERY call. the medic can cancel them on scene or en route if the medic gets there first and can rule the call as BS, but 98% of the time, the medic is seconds or a minute or 2 behind the engine and majority of the time is useless except a first set of vitals. on codes obviously the more hands the better. but its most often unnecessary to have the engine respond to every call.


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## ExpatMedic0 (Jul 5, 2014)

Angel said:


> in my area, the engine which can have 1-3 medics (3 person engine) is dispatched to EVERY call. the medic can cancel them on scene or en route if the medic gets there first and can rule the call as BS, but 98% of the time, the medic is seconds or a minute or 2 behind the engine and majority of the time is useless except a first set of vitals. on codes obviously the more hands the better. but its most often unnecessary to have the engine respond to every call.


Ya this is typical on the westcoast, we did the same thing in Portland. Its the fire departments way to exploit EMS as a way to save firemen's jobs and justify there existence and bloated budget. Its an absolute joke


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## Scott33 (Jul 5, 2014)

Crackcicle said:


> It's incredibly inefficient. Nassau county has one of the worst EMS systems in the country.



Not to mention the prehistoric protocols they had prior to April of this year.


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## Bullets (Jul 5, 2014)

MonkeyArrow said:


> But isn't a three to four person engine company responding to appropriately triaged calls just a more efficient use of available of personnel as opposed to assigning a second medic unit. Say that you're dispatched to a code/trauma/resp. distress call, I surrey hope that you're not trying to work that code with your two person ambulance crew. Assuming you don't have a mechanical compression device or a ventilator, one will have to bag and one will have to compress. That leaves you with no one to do...the rest. Instead of pulling a second medic crew and leaving their first due area uncovered, it will serve the community much better so send an engine, which probably wasn't going to be fighting a fire anyways, to assist the original medic.



No, its more efficient to have a bunch of BLS units, B/B Ambulances to respond to everything and then have a handful of Single or dual medic cars to respond to ALS coded calls and reduce the number of firemen need to cover the 5% of calls most cities actually do.

This would give you 3-4 providers on your worst regular calls, CPR. Realistically, if your EMTs are good, they can handle a trauma as wound care is a BLS skill.
Respiratorys don't require more than 3-4 providers


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## rescue1 (Jul 5, 2014)

MonkeyArrow said:


> But isn't a three to four person engine company responding to appropriately triaged calls just a more efficient use of available of personnel as opposed to assigning a second medic unit. Say that you're dispatched to a code/trauma/resp. distress call, I surrey hope that you're not trying to work that code with your two person ambulance crew. Assuming you don't have a mechanical compression device or a ventilator, one will have to bag and one will have to compress. That leaves you with no one to do...the rest. Instead of pulling a second medic crew and leaving their first due area uncovered, it will serve the community much better so send an engine, which probably wasn't going to be fighting a fire anyways, to assist the original medic.



Doesn't Seattle/King County Medic One do something like this? Or am I a crazy person


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## rescue1 (Jul 5, 2014)

EpiEMS said:


> http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201..._firefighters_at_odds_over_medical_calls.html
> 
> Fascinating example of a problem: “We don’t need to justify our jobs. Paramedics have to justify their jobs. They've got one role to play, and that’s it."
> 
> Now, in the US:



Toronto's fire woes aside, I think the graph provided is a little misleading, especially since it works with total numbers instead of per-capita data. Much of the growth of career departments is due to more suburban areas outgrowing their volunteer departments as opposed to bloated big city fire departments padding their ranks as fires dwindle. This happens, of course, but even around me, where fire doesn't run EMS unless there's rescue or a lift assist, there have been an increase in career firefighters as volunteer departments find themselves unable to respond in the daytime.
You also have departments where EMS is fully handled by FD, which of course is its own can of worms, but in that case it is not fire justifying itself by throwing on EMS first response.

And its unfortunate (and selfish!) that I have to say this, as long as EMS remains the undereducated low career growth job it is in most parts of America, I'm happy that there are fire departments where I can do EMS, make a decent wage, have a good retirement, and not get thrown under the bus if my company is unable to renegotiate a 911 contract.


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## EMDispatch (Aug 6, 2014)

Quick related question:
Does anybody know anything about the NYPD  ESU ambulances? How/When they are dispatched, or if they are even used?


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## DrParasite (Aug 7, 2014)

EMDispatch said:


> Quick related question:
> Does anybody know anything about the NYPD  ESU ambulances? How/When they are dispatched, or if they are even used?


They have two ambulances, staffed by the ESU medical unit.

The NYPD ESU Emergency Medical Squad is a unit that provides ambulance service for both active and retired officers of all ranks. It is funded by the unions but operated by police officers from the ESU. The unit has 2 ambulances and 2 medical supply trucks. 

They don't respond to calls in the normal 911 system, and I believe they are located in the former firehouse of FDNY Hook and Ladder 66 in Queens/Long Island City


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## EMDispatch (Aug 8, 2014)

DrParasite said:


> They have two ambulances, staffed by the ESU medical unit.
> 
> The NYPD ESU Emergency Medical Squad is a unit that provides ambulance service for both active and retired officers of all ranks. It is funded by the unions but operated by police officers from the ESU. The unit has 2 ambulances and 2 medical supply trucks.
> 
> They don't respond to calls in the normal 911 system, and I believe they are located in the former firehouse of FDNY Hook and Ladder 66 in Queens/Long Island City



Thanks


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## NPO (Aug 9, 2014)

I don't know if its been mentioned but some National Parks Service ambulances are staffed by Ranger (law enforcement) Paramedics.


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## drjekyl75 (Aug 9, 2014)

The EMS system where I work the county Sheriff Dept has a paramedic division. They are non-transporting "chase" ALS units. They are funded by county dollars and first respond with BLS units to provide the ALS Intercept. They are well paid. They start around $18/hr and top out around $27/hr after 5-6 years.


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## benasack2000 (Aug 9, 2014)

Mattapoisett, MA  Police EMS


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## Jon (Aug 19, 2014)

NPO said:


> I don't know if its been mentioned but some National Parks Service ambulances are staffed by Ranger (law enforcement) Paramedics.


The NPS has a VERY interesting EMS system.

Their larger parks provide EMS as a function of "Visitor and Resource Protection" along with the Law Enforcement Rangers. Many times, this means most of the LE Rangers are at least EMT's. Depending on the park, non-LE staff also work on the ambulances, and a handful of larger parks actually hire dedicated EMS folks, at least seasonally. Some also use volunteers. Smaller/urban parks often rely on outside support to manage much of the EMS calls of the park, while larger parks often don't have outside resources for significant distances. 

The NPS also has a "Parkmedic" certification that ends up being a "paramedic-lite" certification between I-85 and I-99.

EMS is provided in a range of vehicles, from traditional ambulances in a handful of parks (maybe 20-30 out of ~400 units) to patrol cars, helicopters, and even bikes.


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## thuisman (Dec 8, 2016)

amerelman said:


> Anyone know of departments in the U.S. that use police based paramedics? I only know of a couple and i know there are more. Thanks!
> 
> Andrew


In the county i live in, the sheriffs department has police paramedic units, (1 of only 2 depts in MI) it seems to work very well and I'm interested in working there in the future, I'm a paramedic student right now and they just recently started letting medic students ride along with them, so I did one and you really learn the more tactical side of things, like situational awareness. And in that county, police (even not medically trained) respond to ALL medicals. Which saved a couple paramedics lives when the guy came running at them with a knife. The county I work in, you only see police if dispatcher sees the need for them.

There are also multiple public safety depts around me that are police cross trained as firefighters, but only medically licensed to the MFR level (even though a lot of them are medics/EMT's)... I'd love to do something like that after working a few years as a medic


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## NysEms2117 (Dec 8, 2016)

thuisman said:


> In the county i live in, the sheriffs department has police paramedic units, (1 of only 2 depts in MI) it seems to work very well and I'm interested in working there in the future, I'm a paramedic student right now and they just recently started letting medic students ride along with them, so I did one and you really learn the more tactical side of things, like situational awareness. And in that county, police (even not medically trained) respond to ALL medicals. Which saved a couple paramedics lives when the guy came running at them with a knife. The county I work in, you only see police if dispatcher sees the need for them.
> 
> There are also multiple public safety depts around me that are police cross trained as firefighters, but only medically licensed to the MFR level (even though a lot of them are medics/EMT's)... I'd love to do something like that after working a few years as a medic


#1 quite a revive!
#2 The thing with sheriff department EMS units(I work for one) is that they are usually part time, and they are EMT'S or PARAMEDICS, not county sheriffs. They DO NOT carry firearms, handcuffs or anything of the sort. Generally, sheriff department EMS units hire LEO's for part time work though(my case). I am an EMT-B as an assistant for our CCT rig (3 person crew EMR(driver) EMT-B/AEMT- in back assisting the, CC-P/CCRN(Primary care provider). You have the "opportunity" to be a tactical medic, but very rarely do we do that, since about 80% of the Sheriffs dpt. EMS unit where i work are LEO's full time, we understand how incredibly stupid it is to be a "tactical medic" especially since most are un-armed.


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## DrParasite (Dec 8, 2016)

mycrofft said:


> The first dedicated "rescue squad" in a large US city was NYPD, long before EMT's. They had first aid training. They also carried the round canvas trampolines for peple to jump onto off buildings.
> (There's something for your private ride!).


Sorry to bring up an old response (is @mycrofft still around?), but this is factually inaccurate.  ESU was formed by a 1924 FD Order, asking Rescue 1 to train a contingent of Police Officers to become their ESU, and to "help" alleviate some of the emergencies in NYC.  This was in the 70s or 80s, and due to the fact that NYC was having a huge fire problem and most of the bronx was burning, so the FD was too tied up with structure fires to deal with rescue assignments. ESU offered to assist them, and the FDNY provided the initial training.

So no, NYPD ESU was not the first dedicated rescue squad in a large city.  FDNY Rescue 1 was formed in 1915.


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## thuisman (Dec 9, 2016)

NysEms2117 said:


> #1 quite a revive!
> #2 The thing with sheriff department EMS units(I work for one) is that they are usually part time, and they are EMT'S or PARAMEDICS, not county sheriffs. They DO NOT carry firearms, handcuffs or anything of the sort. Generally, sheriff department EMS units hire LEO's for part time work though(my case). I am an EMT-B as an assistant for our CCT rig (3 person crew EMR(driver) EMT-B/AEMT- in back assisting the, CC-P/CCRN(Primary care provider). You have the "opportunity" to be a tactical medic, but very rarely do we do that, since about 80% of the Sheriffs dpt. EMS unit where i work are LEO's full time, we understand how incredibly stupid it is to be a "tactical medic" especially since most are un-armed.



I wasn't expecting such a quick reply!

Yeah the depts. that I was talking about are full time police, and do their normal police duties, but are also paramedics, and in the county one, you have to be a medic, they're armed and everything.

A different police dept I live near had a SWAT medic that follows the team around, they are fully trained in SWAT and armed. They carry all information about the team (blood type, meds, allergies)


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## NysEms2117 (Dec 9, 2016)

thuisman said:


> I wasn't expecting such a quick reply!
> 
> Yeah the depts. that I was talking about are full time police, and do their normal police duties, but are also paramedics, and in the county one, you have to be a medic, they're armed and everything.
> 
> A different police dept I live near had a SWAT medic that follows the team around, they are fully trained in SWAT and armed. They carry all information about the team (blood type, meds, allergies)


Well what i would tell you is, to not get that job. They are putting those officers in a tough tough spot.. There is enough to worry about in SWAT or shooter situation, now on top of that your telling officers they have to be proficient in emergency medicine  seems super unnecessary, and dangerous to me. Also for "normal calls" they just carry a medic bag, and switch between chasing people and doing EMS? not sure if I agree with that, as well as i'd venture most departments are not like yours. I know my Sheriffs office EMS unit is not, and we are 80% LEO's.


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## CanadianBagel (Dec 9, 2016)

Here's a CHP flight medic. Maryland State Police also has State Trooper Flight Medics. 
Pretty cool gig. I'd probably do it if Missouri used police flight Medics.


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## thuisman (Dec 9, 2016)

NysEms2117 said:


> Well what i would tell you is, to not get that job. They are putting those officers in a tough tough spot.. There is enough to worry about in SWAT or shooter situation, now on top of that your telling officers they have to be proficient in emergency medicine  seems super unnecessary, and dangerous to me. Also for "normal calls" they just carry a medic bag, and switch between chasing people and doing EMS? not sure if I agree with that, as well as i'd venture most departments are not like yours. I know my Sheriffs office EMS unit is not, and we are 80% LEO's.



Yeah I wasn't too interested in the SWAT part... but how is that dangerous? Its just 1 member of the team who's normally trained in police/SWAT, but also a medic, to provide emergency care right away if needed.

For the police medic units (we call them E-Units), they go where ever they're sent, they have everything an ALS ambulance has except a stretcher. If they get called to a medical, they're just first responding for the ambulance, they'll usually carry in the first in bag and the monitor. If they get called to a normal police call, they go about it like normal police do.


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## NysEms2117 (Dec 9, 2016)

If I'm breaching looking to find a hostile target I don't wanna be stuck doing medical treatment instead of shooting.... Why not have a sprinter car? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## thuisman (Dec 9, 2016)

NysEms2117 said:


> If I'm breaching looking to find a hostile target I don't wanna be stuck doing medical treatment instead of shooting.... Why not have a sprinter car?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I don't think that's how it works, I'm sure they take care of the threat before medical treatment, plus there are many other members of the team to continue. The SWAT medic doesn't carry any big bagsor anything, they have a small backpack and pockets on their vests, kind of like pararescue jumpers, there's usually an EMS unit staging nearby, but obviously if he's critically shot, seconds count to get treatment


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## thuisman (Dec 9, 2016)

NysEms2117 said:


> If I'm breaching looking to find a hostile target I don't wanna be stuck doing medical treatment instead of shooting.... Why not have a sprinter car?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




He's one of the paramedic instructors at my school, I'll talk to him more about it when I see him next, but by the sound of it, the system works well.


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## NysEms2117 (Dec 9, 2016)

thuisman said:


> I don't think that's how it works, I'm sure they take care of the threat before medical treatment, plus there are many other members of the team to continue. The SWAT medic doesn't carry any big bagsor anything, they have a small backpack and pockets on their vests, kind of like pararescue jumpers, there's usually an EMS unit staging nearby, but obviously if he's critically shot, seconds count to get treatment


I know how they work, I'm allowed to be "one of them for the state". SWAT medics go in with them. Otherwise an ambulance can just sit in the cold zone, and just wait... The point is to clear a place, stop do quick bls things then moving on but I'm yet to find a place that does it like NYS does...


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## DesertMedic66 (Dec 9, 2016)

SplintedTheWrongLeg said:


> Here's a CHP flight medic. Maryland State Police also has State Trooper Flight Medics.
> Pretty cool gig. I'd probably do it if Missouri used police flight Medics.


There is a CHP flight medic on this site also


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## Drwlemt (Dec 10, 2016)

thuisman said:


> In the county i live in, the sheriffs department has police paramedic units, (1 of only 2 depts in MI) it seems to work very well and I'm interested in working there in the future, I'm a paramedic student right now and they just recently started letting medic students ride along with them, so I did one and you really learn the more tactical side of things, like situational awareness. And in that county, police (even not medically trained) respond to ALL medicals. Which saved a couple paramedics lives when the guy came running at them with a knife. The county I work in, you only see police if dispatcher sees the need for them.
> 
> There are also multiple public safety depts around me that are police cross trained as firefighters, but only medically licensed to the MFR level (even though a lot of them are medics/EMT's)... I'd love to do something like that after working a few years as a medic



I personally think this is a great direction for EMS to move towards. It creates more opportunities for training and employment and proves how versatile the role of a paramedic can be. Many people wouldn't think twice about a fire/medic  or  a flight medic so I don't understand why talking about having someone trained to enforce laws but also be an ALS level first responder for incidents makes people so uncomfortable. Obviously you wouldn't force this role on every provider. It would be more of a higher tier position for exceptional paramedics who are  interested to strive for thus giving addition room for growth and advancement within the field. I'm currently finishing my AAS in Emergency Medicine and fully intend to get on with some sort of tactical EMS team.


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## NysEms2117 (Dec 10, 2016)

Drwlemt said:


> I personally think this is a great direction for EMS to move towards. It creates more opportunities for training and employment and proves how versatile the role of a paramedic can be. Many people wouldn't think twice about a fire/medic  or  a flight medic so I don't understand why talking about having someone trained to enforce laws but also be an ALS level first responder for incidents makes people so uncomfortable. Obviously you wouldn't force this role on every provider. It would be more of a higher tier position for exceptional paramedics who are  interested to strive for thus giving addition room for growth and advancement within the field. I'm currently finishing my AAS in Emergency Medicine and fully intend to get on with some sort of tactical EMS team.


Would you tell the person that has the same power to arrest you as to save you, your overdosed on an illegal drug? If your under 21, would you say your drunk and fell now need an ambulance?? As well as i previously stated, let EMT do EMT things, let LE do LE things, **This was said to me by AKflight**. It's unnecessary risks.


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## Drwlemt (Dec 10, 2016)

NysEms2117 said:


> Would you tell the person that has the same power to arrest you as to save you, your overdosed on an illegal drug? If your under 21, would you say your drunk and fell now need an ambulance?? As well as i previously stated, let EMT do EMT things, let LE do LE things, **This was said to me by AKflight**. It's unnecessary risks.



While we're at it why don't we hire one person to drive, one person to control airway, one person to navigate, another individual to chart etc.... let EMT do EMT things, let LE do LE things seems more like, I don't want extra responsibilities and I don't want other individuals to get ahead of me because they pursued additional education. The police where I live already carry narcan. When they respond to an overdose they have protocol's in place, I believe you are safe from any charges related to drug use/paraphilia for that encounter if you called 911 (not 100% on this). If you're unwilling or unable to give a thorough history that does not completely stop care and many people will not tell paramedics everything either due to the uniform. I'm actually kind of surprised I was just looking at your thread about advancing EMS and this in my opinion is a very obvious area in which EMS can expand.


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## thuisman (Dec 10, 2016)

Drwlemt said:


> I personally think this is a great direction for EMS to move towards. It creates more opportunities for training and employment and proves how versatile the role of a paramedic can be. Many people wouldn't think twice about a fire/medic  or  a flight medic so I don't understand why talking about having someone trained to enforce laws but also be an ALS level first responder for incidents makes people so uncomfortable. Obviously you wouldn't force this role on every provider. It would be more of a higher tier position for exceptional paramedics who are  interested to strive for thus giving addition room for growth and advancement within the field. I'm currently finishing my AAS in Emergency Medicine and fully intend to get on with some sort of tactical EMS team.



100% agree. Especially when I'm on the ambulance, always feel safer when there's an officer present, for protection purposes, and legal (documentation) purposes.


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## thuisman (Dec 10, 2016)

NysEms2117 said:


> Would you tell the person that has the same power to arrest you as to save you, your overdosed on an illegal drug? If your under 21, would you say your drunk and fell now need an ambulance?? As well as i previously stated, let EMT do EMT things, let LE do LE things, **This was said to me by AKflight**. It's unnecessary risks.



Al least around here, police respond to all EMS calls that involve drugs or alcohol. And we "stage" for them. So if officer there to first responding they can provide ALS care if needed


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## NysEms2117 (Dec 10, 2016)

Drwlemt said:


> While we're at it why don't we hire one person to drive, one person to control airway, one person to navigate, another individual to chart etc.... let EMT do EMT things, let LE do LE things seems more like, I don't want extra responsibilities and I don't want other individuals to get ahead of me because they pursued additional education.


CCT rigs have that, i work as an assistant to my CC-P partner, while an EMR drives. EMS is my side job. Law Enforcement is my first job. I will tell you *from experience *LE needs to focus on LE. LE needs to make sure EMS is SAFE. Making sure the *trained professionals* in *Pre Hospital Healthcare *are safe, and can do their job right should be the priority on those calls. From experience on a tactical team, it is very difficult to even take care of all of your responsibilities, making sure you and your team gets out injury free. I have the opportunity to be a "tactical medic" which i see as utterly useless unless you 1. get extra people on the team to branch off and provide security for you. 2. You as the TM get to carry a firearm.
The same thing for EMS... They need to focus on *Patient care *and knowing you have somebody watching your back to make sure you *are safe* makes that quite a bit easier. Unless you want to go blindly running into a hot scene, then feel free


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## Handsome Robb (Dec 11, 2016)

thuisman said:


> I don't think that's how it works, I'm sure they take care of the threat before medical treatment, plus there are many other members of the team to continue. The SWAT medic doesn't carry any big bagsor anything, they have a small backpack and pockets on their vests, kind of like pararescue jumpers, there's usually an EMS unit staging nearby, but obviously if he's critically shot, seconds count to get treatment



Best medicine in a firefight is the end the threat. If you stop to treat the whole team has to stop or at least you plus one person to provide lethal cover for you. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Drwlemt (Dec 11, 2016)

NysEms2117 said:


> CCT rigs have that, i work as an assistant to my CC-P partner, while an EMR drives. EMS is my side job. Law Enforcement is my first job. I will tell you *from experience *LE needs to focus on LE. LE needs to make sure EMS is SAFE. Making sure the *trained professionals* in *Pre Hospital Healthcare *are safe, and can do their job right should be the priority on those calls. From experience on a tactical team, it is very difficult to even take care of all of your responsibilities, making sure you and your team gets out injury free. I have the opportunity to be a "tactical medic" which i see as utterly useless unless you 1. get extra people on the team to branch off and provide security for you. 2. You as the TM get to carry a firearm.
> The same thing for EMS... They need to focus on *Patient care *and knowing you have somebody watching your back to make sure you *are safe* makes that quite a bit easier. Unless you want to go blindly running into a hot scene, then feel free



I see where you're coming from but it's wrong. Having served in an infantry battalion with the Marine corps I can assure you that people can operate within a tactical environment while providing emergency medical care. We had Navy Corpsmen, Army has combat medics. I personally witnessed both in action and I can vouch that they are an extremely valuable asset. A police officer licensed as a paramedic Would most likely operate as an LEO on most calls that He/she is dispatched too but  have the ability to proved immediate care in cases such as trauma, penetrating wounds, blood loss. You said it yourself it is pointless to have a TM who isn't armed and that is not what I'm suggesting  at all. A TM should be a fully functional member of the team only with a trauma bag. Real life is a lot different then a Hollywood movie buddy and I think that's the perspective you are looking at this from.


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## NomadicMedic (Dec 11, 2016)

Sorry, I think if LEO wants to work as a paramedic, that should be their focus. Quit the police force and get on a truck. It's an entirely separate world. The same with fire, physicians, aircraft pilots and train conductors. Let the guys fulfill their PRIMARY job without adding more distractors.

They don't need to be a paramedic to render "immediate care in cases such as trauma, penetrating wounds, blood loss."

They should carry a blow out kit and be trained in CPR. Then let the paramedics do their job.


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## NysEms2117 (Dec 11, 2016)

Drwlemt said:


> I see where you're coming from but it's wrong. Having served in an infantry battalion with the Marine corps I can assure you that people can operate within a tactical environment while providing emergency medical care. We had Navy Corpsmen, Army has combat medics. I personally witnessed both in action and I can vouch that they are an extremely valuable asset. A police officer licensed as a paramedic Would most likely operate as an LEO on most calls that He/she is dispatched too but  have the ability to proved immediate care in cases such as trauma, penetrating wounds, blood loss. You said it yourself it is pointless to have a TM who isn't armed and that is not what I'm suggesting  at all. A TM should be a fully functional member of the team only with a trauma bag. Real life is a lot different then a Hollywood movie buddy and I think that's the perspective you are looking at this from.


I'm not going to speak for the military side because I never served. But I will tell you, the way your looking at things, while your stateside will get you killed or hurt. The military is 110% different then law enforcement. Different ROE, different circumstances, different training, different backup, different support. Also may I ask what's the first thing a corpsman does or first thing an army CB medic does? Their unit sets a perimeter and they drag the patient to where they won't further get shot. They don't blindly aimlessly run and treat somebody in the middle of an open road. I don't operate in Hollywood lifestyle. I operate in, I want to go home to my fiancé and not be a hero lifestyle. Which sounds like the world your operating in. Robb said it prior too, you'll stop the whole team, to treat 1 person. NYS does it how I think it should be done if at all, and I still refuse to do it. The point of ems is quick pre hospice care. All of the patients a tactical medic would see need to be at a MINIMUM evaluated by definitive care personnel. By doing your tactical medicine, your delaying that.


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## VentMonkey (Dec 11, 2016)

DEmedic said:


> Sorry, I think if LEO wants to work as a paramedic, that should be their focus. Quit the police force and get on a truck. It's an entirely separate world. The same with fire, physicians, aircraft pilots and train conductors. Let the guys fulfill their PRIMARY job without adding more distractors.
> 
> They don't need to be a paramedic to render "immediate care in cases such as trauma, penetrating wounds, blood loss."
> 
> They should carry a blow out kit and be trained in CPR. Then let the paramedics do their job.


This times a million. So does this mean I can go put myself through a police academy and be a half cop when I so choose?

My point being much like the others on here. While there may be police based paramedics and albeit good ones, I am willing to bet they're the exception, not the rule. @Drwlemt define what type of "ALS care" is so life saving that a cop should render this prior to an ALS paramedic ambulance arriving at a scene. If it is anything along the lines of most ALS fire engines, I'm going to go ahead and say it's every bit as proven to provide better outcomes than they are...it's not; heck, many and most paramedics on here can agree much of what we do as sole ALS paramedics is.

Long story short the best cops enforce the law, the best firefighters fight fires, and the best medical providers provide medicine. That is all.


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## Drwlemt (Dec 11, 2016)

It's  really disappointing to see the general mindset on here about this subject but can't say I'm surprised. Working in EMS about 80% of the people I've worked with have had the mindset of doing the absolute minimum and are completely fine with that. It's really not surprising that EMS in this country is looked down on. No matter how badly people on here don't want it to happen police based medics and tactical medicine are being adopted by departments around the country. To name a few look at MSP, BORSTAR, FBI HRT, the ATF has a program, DC ERT, and I've seen quite a few posts on here about local departments utilizing tactical medics most being either from California, Florida, and Texas. I'll go back to what I said earlier this wouldn't be a job for everyone. If you want to just be a paramedic then stay doing that.


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## VentMonkey (Dec 11, 2016)

Drwlemt said:


> It's  really disappointing to see the general mindset on here about this subject but can't say I'm surprised. Working in EMS about 80% of the people I've worked with have had the mindset of doing the absolute minimum and are completely fine with that. It's really not surprising that EMS in this country is looked down on. No matter how badly people on here don't want it to happen police based medics and tactical medicine are being adopted by departments around the country. To name a few look at MSP, BORSTAR, FBI HRT, the ATF has a program, DC ERT, and I've seen quite a few posts on here about local departments utilizing tactical medics most being either from California, Florida, and Texas. I'll go back to what I said earlier this wouldn't be a job for everyone. If you want to just be a paramedic then stay doing that.


But can you at least respect the opinions of those who collectively have "just been a paramedic" for who knows how many years?

I think you're missing the mark here. I don't think anyone said it isn't happening or that it's a terrible idea. Clearly from posts referencing BORSTAR, MSP, etc. there are some pretty well respected dual role LE/ EMS deployments; many of them people such as myself were at one time interested in.

At least what I was talking about was police based ground paramedicine as in on any, and/ or all 911 calls. That seems like a bit much, again, citing the fact that prehospital medicine alone at best isn't embedded with proven data to support favorable outcomes with treatments rendered with the exception of only a few, mainly BLS, skills.

I can respect I am not going to change your opinion, cool, but to say it's already happening by pointing out agencies many of us are already well aware of, and some of whom may even have had firsthand experience with, is well, a bit arrogant.

As far as doing the bare minimum, clearly you haven't read many of the respected forum members posts on here. Most of them hardly do the "bare minimum", which is why they're respected.


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## cruiseforever (Dec 11, 2016)

I have had a few paramedic partners that also worked as full time police officers.  Everyone of them is a cop before they are a medic.  They feel everyone is lying to them and they look down on most pts..  They were my least favorite medics to work with.


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## VentMonkey (Dec 11, 2016)

cruiseforever said:


> I have had a few paramedic partners that also worked as full time police officers.  Everyone of them is a cop before they are a medic.  They feel everyone is lying to them and they look down on most pts..  They were my least favorite medics to work with.


Not to derail this thread, but digging the new profile pic @cruiseforever, carry on gents...


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## Fry14MN (Dec 11, 2016)

I'm showing up a little late to this party but I'll give my two scene for whatever it's worth.

Where I work, everyone has distinct roles. I provide safety to patients and anyone who needs it. I'm trained in higher levels of restraining patients if needed. I am NOT a nurse or doctor or EMT. They are trained medically to provide care to patients who are experiencing a medical problem and that's how the system works.  If I was to jump into a medical situation the nurse or doctor would look at me and tell me to step back.  If a situation was escalating and the situation became unsafe, I would look at the nurse or doctor and wonder why they are trying to do my job.  My point is everyone has a job to do, everyone is specifically trained and we stick to our responsibilities


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## CALEMT (Dec 11, 2016)

Fry14MN said:


> I'm showing up a little late to this party but I'll give my two scene for whatever it's worth.
> 
> Where I work, everyone has distinct roles. I provide safety to patients and anyone who needs it. I'm trained in higher levels of restraining patients if needed. I am NOT a nurse or doctor or EMT. They are trained medically to provide care to patients who are experiencing a medical problem and that's how the system works.  If I was to jump into a medical situation the nurse or doctor would look at me and tell me to step back.  If a situation was escalating and the situation became unsafe, I would look at the nurse or doctor and wonder why they are trying to do my job.  My point is everyone has a job to do, everyone is specifically trained and we stick to our responsibilities



Please don't take this the wrong way because this is going to sound harsher than it really is, but why are you on here then? Did I miss something in your posting history? Are you going to take a EMT class or are you on here just to "pick up" a thing or two? Anyway I'm more than happy that you're on here.


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## Fry14MN (Dec 11, 2016)

CALEMT said:


> Please don't take this the wrong way because this is going to sound harsher than it really is, but why are you on here then? Did I miss something in your posting history? Are you going to take a EMT class or are you on here just to "pick up" a thing or two? Anyway I'm more than happy that you're on here.



It's not harsh, it's a valid question. I'm in school right now for EMS.


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## CALEMT (Dec 11, 2016)

Fry14MN said:


> It's not harsh, it's a valid question. I'm in school right now for EMS.



Ahhh gotcha, curiosity haha.


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## Fry14MN (Dec 11, 2016)

Fry14MN said:


> It's not harsh, it's a valid question. I'm in school right now for EMS.



Schools taking me a bit longer than I wanted due to me working more than I probably should but I'll get there.  So for now I lurk mostly and put in my two cents where it may be helpful.


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## Handsome Robb (Dec 11, 2016)

Drwlemt said:


> It's  really disappointing to see the general mindset on here about this subject but can't say I'm surprised. Working in EMS about 80% of the people I've worked with have had the mindset of doing the absolute minimum and are completely fine with that. It's really not surprising that EMS in this country is looked down on. No matter how badly people on here don't want it to happen police based medics and tactical medicine are being adopted by departments around the country. To name a few look at MSP, BORSTAR, FBI HRT, the ATF has a program, DC ERT, and I've seen quite a few posts on here about local departments utilizing tactical medics most being either from California, Florida, and Texas. I'll go back to what I said earlier this wouldn't be a job for everyone. If you want to just be a paramedic then stay doing that.



We can't do EMS right. We should probably focus on that before learning another skill set. 

This thread wasn't started in the aspect of tactical Paramedics. That's completely different than a dual roll LEO/Paramedic. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tigger (Dec 12, 2016)

Drwlemt said:


> It's  really disappointing to see the general mindset on here about this subject but can't say I'm surprised. Working in EMS about 80% of the people I've worked with have had the mindset of doing the absolute minimum and are completely fine with that. It's really not surprising that EMS in this country is looked down on. No matter how badly people on here don't want it to happen police based medics and tactical medicine are being adopted by departments around the country. To name a few look at MSP, BORSTAR, FBI HRT, the ATF has a program, DC ERT, and I've seen quite a few posts on here about local departments utilizing tactical medics most being either from California, Florida, and Texas. I'll go back to what I said earlier this wouldn't be a job for everyone. If you want to just be a paramedic then stay doing that.


Which is a tiny, tiny subset of paramedics throughout the country. 

I love when people come on here and say "I am interested in a career in tactical medicine," as if it is some sort of established career path. It isn't, nor should it be.


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## DrParasite (Dec 12, 2016)

VentMonkey said:


> This times a million. So does this mean I can go put myself through a police academy and be a half cop when I so choose?


actually, yeah.  I used to work with a FT paramedic, who worked part time as a sworn law enforcement office.  He worked 24/72 on the truck and was a deputy sheriff on his day off (although I think he was a FT deputy before we changed to 24/72s and he decided the schedule was just awesome).


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## NysEms2117 (Dec 12, 2016)

DrParasite said:


> actually, yeah.  I used to work with a FT paramedic, who worked part time as a sworn law enforcement office.  He worked 24/72 on the truck and was a deputy sheriff on his day off (although I think he was a FT deputy before we changed to 24/72s and he decided the schedule was just awesome).


Was he a deputy sheriff or a reserve deputy sheriff? If he was a "normal" sheriff he is the absulute extreme outlier.


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## EpiEMS (Dec 12, 2016)

Tigger said:


> I love when people come on here and say "I am interested in a career in tactical medicine," as if it is some sort of established career path. It isn't, nor should it be.



Perhaps as a sub-specialization for a (ideally, broadly educated) paramedic, no?


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## ERDoc (Dec 12, 2016)

I like how Robb put it, we can't do EMS right yet.  EMS is the US is a horribly fractured system.  What will having an LEO with paramedic training bring to the table?  What does someone who has been shot need on the scene?  They need hemorrhage control and rapid extrication.  You don't need a paramedic to do this.  You don't really need an EMT to do this.  You need someone who knows what blood looks like and can move fast.  Someone who has been shot doesn't need a tactical medic.  They don't need an ambulance or an ER.  Most of the time, what they need is a trauma surgeon and an OR.  The other steps just slow down the process.  There is a reason HomeBoy Ambulance has such a good survival rate.

I'm all for advancing the field but it is not really advancing the field when we talk about doing something that is not needed and would only involve a small number of people.  If you want to advance the field then focus on something that will actually have an impact, help a large number of people and involve a large number of providers.  I think community paramedicine is the way to go.  Cough, colds, med refills, simple lacerations, minor head injuries.  These are places where the burden on an already overburdened ER would make a difference and save healthcare dollars.  It's not as cool and sexy as a tactical medic but it makes a lot more sense.


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## EpiEMS (Dec 12, 2016)

ERDoc said:


> I think community paramedicine is the way to go. Cough, colds, med refills, simple lacerations, minor head injuries. These are places where the burden on an already overburdened ER would make a difference and save healthcare dollars.



Thanks for the insightful post, Doc! Would you be comfortable with community paramedics prescribing a limited slate of medications (say, antibiotics subsequent to a rapid strep test, things like that)?


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## ERDoc (Dec 12, 2016)

I think the level of education to become a community paramedic would need to be improved but assuming the education is right, I'd be for it.


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## EpiEMS (Dec 12, 2016)

ERDoc said:


> I think the level of education to become a community paramedic would need to be improved but assuming the education is right, I'd be for it.



Would you want the level of education to be, say, a college-level degree (associates or beyond)?


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## ERDoc (Dec 12, 2016)

For community paramedicine, I'd like to see a bachelors, something similar to the old school PA degree.


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## VATraumaRN (Dec 21, 2016)

Fairfax County Police (Fairfax, VA) has Fairfax 1, a Police Helicopter Division that does medevac (in addition to chasing perps) here in the Metro DC area, they are LEO/Paramedics on the helicopter. They are awesome.


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## DrParasite (Dec 22, 2016)

The New Jersey State Police has NorthSTAR, which has two state trooper pilots, and a flight nurse and flight medic from University Hospital EMS in Newark.  They do medevac's interfacilities, as well as the normal police helicopter stuff.


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## Drwlemt (Dec 23, 2016)

VATraumaRN said:


> Fairfax County Police (Fairfax, VA) has Fairfax 1, a Police Helicopter Division that does medevac (in addition to chasing perps) here in the Metro DC area, they are LEO/Paramedics on the helicopter. They are awesome.


Thanks for posting this I'm originally from that area and this is the first I've heard of the Fairfax program.


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## Operations Guy (Dec 23, 2016)

National Park Service LEOs are required at a minimum to be EMT. That just has to do with the fact of response times for EMS. They carry a full kit in their Tahoe and they tend to focus alot on more aggressive protocols and treatment. Some of the LEO medics carry drugs as well and pak-12s. This is a rare occasion in law enforcement but it truly shows a balance between law enforcement and EMS provider and it works rather well.


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## EpiEMS (Dec 23, 2016)

Operations Guy said:


> This is a rare occasion in law enforcement but it truly shows a balance between law enforcement and EMS provider and it works rather well.


I imagine that their position ends up being more guide ("here's the bathrooms") than EMS and more EMS than law enforcement  - is that generally correct?


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## Operations Guy (Dec 23, 2016)

EpiEMS said:


> I imagine that their position ends up being more guide ("here's the bathrooms") than EMS and more EMS than law enforcement  - is that generally correct?



Not at all. Some of the bigger parks have SWAT teams and more. Alot of EMS work in my past dealings with them but a fair share of law enforcement as well. After 9/11 Yosemite actually was on list of potential targets being 90 percent of the water for the Bay Area comes from reservoir up there.


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## EpiEMS (Dec 23, 2016)

Operations Guy said:


> Not at all. Some of the bigger parks have SWAT teams and more. Alot of EMS work in my past dealings with them but a fair share of law enforcement as well. After 9/11 Yosemite actually was on list of potential targets being 90 percent of the water for the Bay Area comes from reservoir up there.


Interesting! Thanks for the info!


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## NysEms2117 (Dec 24, 2016)

Operations Guy said:


> Not at all. Some of the bigger parks have SWAT teams and more. Alot of EMS work in my past dealings with them but a fair share of law enforcement as well. After 9/11 Yosemite actually was on list of potential targets being 90 percent of the water for the Bay Area comes from reservoir up there.


Those swat teams are usually sourced in from what I can understand though. By that meaning the park saying "hey we're vulnerable, and in your state please protect us". Which is reasonable obviously, so if I'm not mistaken it's the state police swat guys that do that, at least In NYS, they have a whole mountain division of guys that do that jazz. Not my cup of tea, but I know a few of them.


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## Operations Guy (Dec 24, 2016)

NysEms2117 said:


> Those swat teams are usually sourced in from what I can understand though. By that meaning the park saying "hey we're vulnerable, and in your state please protect us". Which is reasonable obviously, so if I'm not mistaken it's the state police swat guys that do that, at least In NYS, they have a whole mountain division of guys that do that jazz. Not my cup of tea, but I know a few of them.



Maybe at smaller national parks but after 9/11 National Park Service Law Enforcement went all out on protection of what they consider "America's Gems". The LEOs in the National Park Service really pushed reform from smokey bear hats to high powered rifles. For example BLM on the boarder carry fire power reserved normally for the army. I was just reading about a division in Arizona of BLM that bought night vision, surpressors, and even have a sniper team. Also Yosemite has a SWAT team that is mostly National Park LEO. They pushed a lot in reform from an officer safety standpoint cause Forest Service, BLM, and National Park LEOs are often considered the most isolated even more than boarder Patrol.


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## Operations Guy (Dec 24, 2016)

National Park Service

 -   Yellowstone Special Response Team (SRT)
 -   Western Region Special Response Team
 -   Special Events and Tactics Team
    US Park Police - Special Weapons and  Tactics (SWAT) Team


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## Operations Guy (Dec 24, 2016)

To be honest I support law enforcement but it's become over bloated at the federal level. Remember according to the Obama administration memo "white, recently returning war veterans, with Ron Paul stickers on their vehicles should be approached with caution." Yeah nothing says danger to your control like Constitution loving individuals.


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## NysEms2117 (Dec 24, 2016)

Operations Guy said:


> They pushed a lot in reform from an officer safety standpoint cause Forest Service, BLM, and National Park LEOs are often considered the most isolated even more than boarder Patrol.


Who trains them? Do they just know their way around a park, and have been given t3 vests, a tactical rifle and now they are a swat team? 


Operations Guy said:


> To be honest I support law enforcement but it's become over bloated at the federal level.


Also remember federal Leo's respond to local calls too. I work hand in hand every day with the federal guys. If somebody's goes from ny to nj or cross any state line the Feds are now involved. They have much better gear, more people at the "snap of a finger" and more often then not better training. That's the reason I'm skeptical about national parks doing their own thing. I think they need Rangers and national park le, but I know for a fact(I'm on the team) that state srt and state level swat trains just about non stop. Which is what you need for a swat team. I think some sheriffs dpt's down south and out west have swat officers that only do warrants(not 100% on that but the concept remains).

I guess where I'm getting at is personally I don't think those teams would be effective since those officers now have to know: how to be a park ranger/ park Leo be nice and help eveybody, know how to be an effective emt when help isn't coming for a good long time, how to be a swat officer(not very easy), and whatever responsibilities they have that I don't know about which are probably quite a few.


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## CALEMT (Dec 24, 2016)

NysEms2117 said:


> I think some sheriffs dpt's down south and out west have swat officers that only do warrants(not 100% on that but the concept remains).



Riverside County sheriff's SWAT team's do any "high risk" operation. Which post 9/11 includes operations on water resources within the county. We don't really have any national parks within the county (Joshua tree is the only that's partly in RIVCo).


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## Operations Guy (Dec 24, 2016)

So it use to be that the National Park Service sent it's SWAT LEOs to Quantico to learn from the best at heavy handed tactics no other then the infamous stars of Ruby Ridge and Waco I give you the FBI SRT.


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