# Walmart Raises Minimum Wage to $10 - Why Not EMS?



## MMiz (Feb 19, 2015)

I saw in the news today that Walmart is raising the wage of many of it's entry level workers to an average of $10 an hour.

This will mean most part time Walmart workers may more than the average EMT-Basic.

What do you think?


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## Chewy20 (Feb 19, 2015)

No one to blame but EMS, theres people willing to work for pennies. Greedy owners take advantage of knowing some other sucker will be at the door when someone quits.


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## gonefishing (Feb 19, 2015)

The California minimum wage is $9.00 I know a few companies paying just that or $9.30 which just makes walmart even more better.lol


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## NomadicMedic (Feb 19, 2015)

As long as people will work for it, how can you blame business owners?


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## gonefishing (Feb 19, 2015)

DEmedic said:


> As long as people will work for it, how can you blame business owners?


Because when people  complain they either get axed or theres those that don't  care or the un willing to organize themselves.


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## NomadicMedic (Feb 19, 2015)

Right, but there's a line of 50 fresh new EMTs standing at the HR office door, ready to "race the reaper". If I were a business owner that did BLS IFT, I'd run it as close to the bleeding edge as I could. Working as an EMT isn't a career, it's the fast food job of medicine, and quite frankly, only deserves minimum wage pay.


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## gonefishing (Feb 19, 2015)

DEmedic said:


> Right, but there's a line of 50 fresh new EMTs standing at the HR office door, ready to "race the reaper". If I were a business owner that did BLS IFT, I'd run it as close to the bleeding edge as I could. Working as an EMT isn't a career, it's the fast food job of medicine, and quite frankly, only deserves minimum wage pay.


Not here.  Weve had a shortage of medics and emts for 4 months.


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## NomadicMedic (Feb 19, 2015)

gonefishing said:


> Not here.  Weve had a shortage of medics and emts for 4 months.



Then pay more, offer decent benefits and put together a retention plan. 

Your service is in the minority. Most services have multiple qualified applicants for every job, especially EMT-Bs.


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## gonefishing (Feb 19, 2015)

DEmedic said:


> Then pay more, offer decent benefits and put together a retention plan.
> 
> Your service is in the minority. Most services have multiple qualified applicants for every job, especially EMT-Bs.


That's county wide.lol. They say when the economy is good not an emt to be found.lol


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## OnceAnEMT (Feb 19, 2015)

DEmedic said:


> Working as an EMT isn't a career, it's the fast food job of medicine, and quite frankly, only deserves minimum wage pay.



I completely agree, and this simple concept is what motivated me to keep going through school. I was already set to go to college, but after getting my EMT I reeeeaalllyy struggled with the thought that I could stop school now, go work for a top notch system within a year or two, maybe get my paramedic paid for, and call it a life. And live alright. But I pushed.

Now I see the old EMT-Bs still doing IFT, I see the 40 year old techs at the hospital. 

I mean think about the education requirement. High School and 3 months to be an EMT. Well, it might take High School, then an addition month, for a high-end serving gig at a restaurant. EMT is a stepping stone.


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## gonefishing (Feb 19, 2015)

Grimes said:


> I completely agree, and this simple concept is what motivated me to keep going through school. I was already set to go to college, but after getting my EMT I reeeeaalllyy struggled with the thought that I could stop school now, go work for a top notch system within a year or two, maybe get my paramedic paid for, and call it a life. And live alright. But I pushed.
> 
> Now I see the old EMT-Bs still doing IFT, I see the 40 year old techs at the hospital.
> 
> I mean think about the education requirement. High School and 3 months to be an EMT. Well, it might take High School, then an addition month, for a high-end serving gig at a restaurant. EMT is a stepping stone.


If its a stepping  stone why do ma/cna's make more than us?????? LOL why do we make the same as a burger flipper? Whens the last time a burger flipper did cpr? Splinted somebody? Been shat or vomitted on?


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## OnceAnEMT (Feb 19, 2015)

gonefishing said:


> If its a stepping  stone why do ma/cna's make more than us?????? LOL why do we make the same as a burger flipper? Whens the last time a burger flipper did cpr? Splinted somebody? Been shat or vomitted on?



Every example you just used is taught in free first aid classes around the world. Style points for vomiting. Everything else we do requires a doc to say we can, and it can be youtube'd. There is nothing special about Basics. 

A burger flipper prepares raw meat for cooking and delivery to a customer, providing a clean and safe product. A burger flipper has more opportunity to accidentally cause someone harm than a Basic does on a regular basis.


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## gonefishing (Feb 19, 2015)

Grimes said:


> Every example you just used is taught in free first aid classes around the world. Style points for vomiting. Everything else we do requires a doc to say we can, and it can be youtube'd. There is nothing special about Basics.
> 
> A burger flipper prepares raw meat for cooking and delivery to a customer, providing a clean and safe product. A burger flipper has more opportunity to accidentally cause someone harm than a Basic does on a regular basis.


cnas and mas do the same thing than but just wipe buts but earn about double what an emt makes and most are not even required to have a diploma.


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## NomadicMedic (Feb 19, 2015)

Then go be a CNA.


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## OnceAnEMT (Feb 19, 2015)

gonefishing said:


> cnas and mas do the same thing than but just wipe buts but earn about double what an emt makes and most are not even required to have a diploma.



I have no idea where you are finding CNAs, of any number of years of experiencel, making over $20 an hour.


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## mike1390 (Feb 19, 2015)

DEmedic said:


> Then go be a CNA.


**Golf Clap


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## gonefishing (Feb 19, 2015)

Grimes said:


> I have no idea where you are finding CNAs, of any number of years of experiencel, making over $20 an hour.


Emts in certain parts make $9 hourly.  Alot of cnas and mas make $18 or about $15 im simply pointing out a fact not boo hooing simply standing up for the little guy that can't  afford an apartment  or don't  have mom and dad to help.


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## Chewy20 (Feb 19, 2015)

gonefishing said:


> Emts in certain parts make $9 hourly.  Alot of cnas and mas make $18 or about $15 im simply pointing out a fact not boo hooing simply standing up for the little guy that can't  afford an apartment  or don't  have mom and dad to help.


 
Then the little guy should get more schooling. I don't have parents helping me, and my credit is crap. I am still putting my self through school to earn better money.


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## gonefishing (Feb 19, 2015)

Chewy20 said:


> Then the little guy should get more schooling. I don't have parents helping me, and my credit is crap. I am still putting my self through school to earn better money.


Came from the same boat.  Just throwing  it out there.  There needs to be a fine balance.  There is no more middle class.


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## gotbeerz001 (Feb 19, 2015)

gonefishing said:


> Emts in certain parts make $9 hourly.  Alot of cnas and mas make $18 or about $15 im simply pointing out a fact not boo hooing simply standing up for the little guy that can't  afford an apartment  or don't  have mom and dad to help.


I have EMT partners that make about $5 AN HOUR MORE THAN I DO AS THEIR MEDIC!! Some of them even have their medic license but upgrading means only a $.20 bump for them and all the responsibility is "not worth 20 cents an hour". 

I don't respect that perspective purely out of my desire to excel, bit for the majority of people out there, the logic is sound.


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## gonefishing (Feb 19, 2015)

gotshirtz001 said:


> I have EMT partners that make about $5 AN HOUR MORE THAN I DO AS THEIR MEDIC!! Some of them even have their medic license but upgrading means only a $.20 bump for them and all the responsibility is "not worth 20 cents an hour".
> 
> I don't respect that perspective purely out of my desire to excel, bit for the majority of people out there, the logic is sound.


I've  seen that as well.  We eat our young.lol


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## looker (Feb 20, 2015)

MMiz said:


> I saw in the news today that Walmart is raising the wage of many of it's entry level workers to an average of $10 an hour.
> 
> This will mean most part time Walmart workers may more than the average EMT-Basic.
> 
> What do you think?


Good luck actually getting 40 hours at walmart. They limit it to below 30 so they don't have to pay health insurance. Also often time especially on bls IFT rig, you don't do much. So work is much easier compare to working at walmart and actually being on your feet at all time.


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## looker (Feb 20, 2015)

Chewy20 said:


> No one to blame but EMS, theres people willing to work for pennies. Greedy owners take advantage of knowing some other sucker will be at the door when someone quits.


So you think that owners are greedy? The solution is very simple, start your own company while risking your own money and then you are welcome to pay whatever wage you feel like paying. Those of us that in this business and risked our money didn't go in just to make few bucks. Yes we know that someone will come and work for us for the amount we pay being there is much higher demand for work by emt. If the park start to dry up, you will see the wage going up but i am not seeing that happening anytime soon. Walmart raising their wage as they having trouble finding labor.


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## Chewy20 (Feb 20, 2015)

looker said:


> So you think that owners are greedy? The solution is very simple, start your own company while risking your own money and then you are welcome to pay whatever wage you feel like paying. Those of us that in this business and risked our money didn't go in just to make few bucks. Yes we know that someone will come and work for us for the amount we pay being there is much higher demand for work by emt. If the park start to dry up, you will see the wage going up but i am not seeing that happening anytime soon. Walmart raising their wage as they having trouble finding labor.


 
No thanks, I am content on where I work. Yes they take risks when first starting, but once established and successful you don't see them raising wages. Also, frankly they treat their employees like trash. Like I said, there will always be another sucker knocking at the door for a job that pays crap as long as educational standards allow it.

Am I saying EMT's deserve more than a low amount of pay? Nope, someone who only has a high school diploma or GED plus a month or two of "schooling" that goes to work for a company who only does transports, and doesnt even USE the minimal skills they were taught in class don't deserve much pay. That may rub some of you the wrong way, but oh well. I started there and got out of it as soon as possible.


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## Angel (Feb 20, 2015)

well burger flippers at in n out make like 11 and hour so...


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## looker (Feb 20, 2015)

Chewy20 said:


> No thanks, I am content on where I work. Yes they take risks when first starting, but once established and successful you don't see them raising wages. Also, frankly they treat their employees like trash. Like I said, there will always be another sucker knocking at the door for a job that pays crap as long as educational standards allow it.
> 
> Am I saying EMT's deserve more than a low amount of pay? Nope, someone who only has a high school diploma or GED plus a month or two of "schooling" that goes to work for a company who only does transports, and doesnt even USE the minimal skills they were taught in class don't deserve much pay. That may rub some of you the wrong way, but oh well. I started there and got out of it as soon as possible.



Owners don't raise wages because as you mentioned education required for this job is extremely low and I personally don't see that changing anytime soon as most of the time it's just a taxi(bls side). At the same time medicare been cutting reimbursement for the last few years . There are companies in California that are big and are having major financial problems. So to say that owners only risk initial investment is not true being that competition is extremely high. If your company sneezes, there will be someone there to take your patient.


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## Carlos Danger (Feb 20, 2015)

Wages are always and will alway be primarily based on labor supply relative to labor demand. This goes for low-skilled jobs as well as those that require a high level of education.

Your employer does not pay you for your skill, for the number of years that you spent in school, or for your level of responsibility. That is all a myth that ignores basic economics. If it were true, than everyone with a bachelors' degree in any field would have a really good job and everyone with a graduate degree in fine arts would be rich. If it were true, all you'd have to do is get a doctorate while working as an EMT, and your employer would raise your salary to $100k/year. No employer is going to do that, though.

The harsh reality is that just like you pay as little as possible anytime you make any large purchase, an employer purchases labor for as little as possible. Basically, they pay you what they think they have to pay you to keep you around, no less and not much more. If they feel it's more profitable for them to pay below market wages and deal with high turnover, then that's what they'll do. But in no case can any employer ever force any employee to work under terms that the employee doesn't agree to. An employer doesn't owe their employees any pay or benefits that wasn't in the original employment contract, just like the employee doesn't have to work hours or perform tasks that aren't in the original employment contract. You don't like the terms of the contract, don't accept it. Simple. 

The busting on Walmart thing is old, unfounded, and frankly, dumb. The people who work there _obviously_ think that they are better off with that job than without it. No one is being forced to work there against their will.


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## Carlos Danger (Feb 20, 2015)

double post again


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## chaz90 (Feb 20, 2015)

Remi said:


> double post again


That should probably be your signature at this point.


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## Carlos Danger (Feb 20, 2015)

chaz90 said:


> That should probably be your signature at this point.


I know, I don't know it keeps happening, but lately it seems like every time I try to edit a typo or something in one of my posts, the post gets duplicated.


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## akflightmedic (Feb 21, 2015)

Excellent post Remi.

As for the guy who says "once you start up and are over the risk and become successful...", may I ask what you are using to determine success? Do you have access to the daily financials or are you merely speculating based on call volume and how much they bill per run? Your comment is full of ignorance.

As a business owner, some might say I am successful. Yes, I took a LOT of risk to start my venture and it took YEARS before I was in the black. However, long before that people were making assumptions about how much I had and how good I was doing. You have no idea what it takes to run a successful business as evidenced by your inaccurate perspective. So please tell me...at what point do YOU determine MY success and at what point should I stop trying to protect mine and my family's financial future and worry more about yours when you agreed to the job at the accepted wage?

No matter how successful you perceive a business to be...every single day it is at risk. Every single freaking day there is stress and potential for failure. There are contract defaults, contract cancellations, slow pays, no pays, insurance rule changes....and that is just in the accounting department, long before we get to the HR/Employees, overhead, maintenance, etc.

You might actually be VERY surprised at how little margins owners actually walk away with at the end of the year despite the MILLIONS in annual revenue. There is a significant difference between annual revenue and net profit.

Edit - I forgot to mention the moronic patients and employees who tried to file frivolous lawsuits as well because they perceived the "successful" business as a payday for them. Despite them not winning, time and money is lost when it could be better spent on other things within the business. People will do this...even if you are not one of those types, look to you left or to your right because one of your coworkers is.


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## Chewy20 (Feb 21, 2015)

akflightmedic said:


> Excellent post Remi.
> 
> As for the guy who says "once you start up and are over the risk and become successful...", may I ask what you are using to determine success? Do you have access to the daily financials or are you merely speculating based on call volume and how much they bill per run? Your comment is full of ignorance.
> 
> ...


 

Aw did I hurt your business owner feelings? I am not talking about businesses that have a slim margin and have to worry about their crap every day. Im sure AMR and companies that are buying everyone up are worried about that stuff. I know for a fact that businesses can pay their employees more, not just in EMS. Like I also said, they don't deserve more money.


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## akflightmedic (Feb 21, 2015)

So answer my question. What is a "slim margin"? What are you basing this on? Who are you to determine how much a company can or should make based on their years of start up followed by a successful business model?

Where is the cutoff? How do you arrive at this "cap"? Who will enforce it?


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## JosephDurham (Feb 21, 2015)

If Walmart can pay their employees starting out $10 an hr then so be it.  Money isn't everything.  How many people out there really make over $15 an hr? I know I sure don't. 

Remember were not in this for the money, if so, there is certainly a problem. 

Joseph


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## akflightmedic (Feb 21, 2015)

I disagree Joseph, we ARE in this for the money as this is a career. People can fool themselves and say it is a calling or whatever, but it is your chosen profession, therefore you are entitled to be paid and should be paid accordingly. The problem arises when people think their value is greater than what it actually is. Almost every employe in every profession has done this at one time or another...from the $7/hour worker to the 3M/Annual Executive...everyone over values their contribution and subsequent worth. Sometimes they are right, but many times they are not.

So if we ARE in this for the money, the next issue is how much? How much should a 3 month "graduate" earn? Claiming you "save lives, get spat on, vomited on, etc" is irrelevant as it comes with the job. You accepted these terms when you pursued the education and accepted the job. There are no points awarded for having what you perceive to be the greatest contribution to society overall as I could probably come up with dozens of other trades which have less than glamorous hazards and we do not hear them screaming in the streets.


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## cruiseforever (Feb 21, 2015)

JosephDurham said:


> If Walmart can pay their employees starting out $10 an hr then so be it.  Money isn't everything.  How many people out there really make over $15 an hr? I know I sure don't.
> 
> Remember were not in this for the money, if so, there is certainly a problem.
> 
> ...


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## JosephDurham (Feb 21, 2015)

Some departments can do, and that's a great thing.


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## TransportJockey (Feb 21, 2015)

JosephDurham said:


> Some departments can do, and that's a great thing.


It's not only if they can do there's also a question of why they should. In most places EMTs are a dime a dozen and there'll be a line of new candidates to replace them if they quit over low pay.


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## akflightmedic (Feb 21, 2015)

I have learned a lot shifting from paramedic to business owner. The "low pay" discussion is always entertaining.

Employee: I am quitting because you do not pay me enough.
Boss: You have been here 6 months.
Employee: Exactly!
Boss: Huh?
Boss: Is everything about the job exactly as I stated it would be? Has anything changed? Have I added duties not discussed prior? Have I placed any unreasonable demands or burdens upon you, have there been any surprises?
Employee: No, but...$$$ or I leave.
Boss: Why did you accept the job in the first place and waste my time and money? Sorry you feel this way. Next....!


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## irishboxer384 (Feb 21, 2015)

Ironically the most I have ever been paid involved me doing the least amount of work. And the least I've ever been paid had me doing the most work.
Based just off initial observations of their employees, Walmart employees never seem to stop working...it looks like a miserable, over-worked job for pittance. So I'm glad they are geting a little extra. Compare that to an EMT...and how much time can be spent just sitting on ipad in an ambulance (generally speaking)...and the pay is 'fair'. As @Remi  stated, simple supply and demand.

As for business owners being able to pay more...why should they? They have to assess the balance between paying enough to keep quality employees, and making a profit...they are not there to provide jobs for the masses: they are there to reap the financial rewards for themselves, after they took the daunting step of starting their own firm.


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## gonefishing (Feb 21, 2015)

The only thing that concerns me is the great divide.  Rent is going higher, gas is a roller coaster, the cost of groceries is ever changing and the divide from the "upper class" and the "lower class" is ever more deviding with no middle.  I beleive in that fair market balance.  Just morals of knowing somebody can atleast put a roof over their head thats all.


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## akflightmedic (Feb 21, 2015)

I understand that concern but I can also state people make a LOT of dumb personal decisions, have unrealistic definitions of what constitutes a life and then attempt to shift that burden onto the employer...who is more often than not a small business owner who did well for him/herself.

But again..."the morals of a roof"...if the job will not put a roof over your head, do NOT take it. Also, when did it become MY responsibility to ensure YOU do that? I have a need, I define the need and I offer what I determine to be a suitable wage for THAT NEED...not for your roof. YOU assess your personal situation and accept the terms of my need.

I have watched employees complain about bills but then see their purchases flashed before everyone. I have seen their vacations or mini-vacations, I have seen their clothing purchases, their coffee, eating out and smoking habits. In short, mostly due to social media, I have watched them blow every hard earned penny, yet turn around and claim they are not making enough and then try to fault the guy whose risked everything to be in business for himself.

I watch my friends do this on Facebook all the time. Woe is me, job sucks, money sucks...but damn if they do not continue with the same bad financial choices over and over. At some point the individual needs to take responsibility.

And this is coming from me...a liberal, Obama lover with socialist tendencies.


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## irishboxer384 (Feb 21, 2015)

The only people who have a real right to complain about their pay are the ones who worked for a company for a decent amount of time and suffered pay CUTS, or the people who's employer does not increase their wage to match national growth.

The rest of us signed the dotted line accepting what would be our pay. I cannot stand people in/out of the military who complain about how much our soldiers SHOULD be paid, noone was conscripted...every man and women is a volunteer. 
Deal with it OR start up your own company and do better OR get into politics/senior management and facilitate change.


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## gonefishing (Feb 21, 2015)

akflightmedic said:


> I understand that concern but I can also state people make a LOT of dumb personal decisions, have unrealistic definitions of what constitutes a life and then attempt to shift that burden onto the employer...who is more often than not a small business owner who did well for him/herself.
> 
> But again..."the morals of a roof"...if the job will not put a roof over your head, do NOT take it. Also, when did it become MY responsibility to ensure YOU do that? I have a need, I define the need and I offer what I determine to be a suitable wage for THAT NEED...not for your roof. YOU assess your personal situation and accept the terms of my need.
> 
> ...


I do have to agree with you on that.  I've  been apart of many ventures and have been on the owners side and seen the stupidity of certain employeees.  Thing I don't  like is Obama.  Sorry.lol


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## Summit (Feb 21, 2015)

gonefishing said:


> cnas and mas do the same thing than but just wipe buts but earn about double what an emt makes and most are not even required to have a diploma.



EMT is what, 160 hours? And a position that has a major cool factor and is generally respected by society compared to unskilled or blue collar jobs.

MA is usually 800-900 hours including clinicals for a certificate. There are AAS MA programs. MAs are replacing LPNs (usually 1.5 year program) in primary care offices. They do coding, billing, front and back office skills, complex assessments, drug interactions, drug administration routes that EMTs don't do, laboratory tests, and many other skills that EMTs don't have training or education to do without very extensive OJT. Some offices do hire more educated and experienced EMTs to work in the clinical assistant role and train them up.

CNAs are paid what they are paid because it is brute physical labor, highest back injury rate of any profession, tedious repetitive duties, and higher assault rates than EMS.

What EMTs do doesn't compare for a BS factor.

So, if you want more money, get a less desirable job or get more education.


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## Chewy20 (Feb 21, 2015)

JosephDurham said:


> If Walmart can pay their employees starting out $10 an hr then so be it.  Money isn't everything.  How many people out there really make over $15 an hr? I know I sure don't.
> 
> Remember were not in this for the money, if so, there is certainly a problem.
> 
> Joseph


 
You seriously don't believe that right? You wont catch me dead working this job or any job for free, unless its for charity. Money pays the bills and lets you do the things you want. I am an EMTB, and with benefits included will make over 60k in 2015 if I decide to work 3 days a week instead of 2. So plenty of people out there make over $15, its about finding them and be willing to relocate.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 21, 2015)

I see business owners against employees heating up in this thread.

There are aspects to both I agree with. Here are a few points I'd like to make.

There are a lot of companies that are not "small businesses" in the private EMS world. Envision Healthcare, the leader in private ambulances in the US, made *3.73B* in *NET* revenue in 2013; it is the largest private employer of EMS folks in the USA. That number has increased undoubtedly in 2015. (http://investor.evhc.net/press-rele...uarter-and-full-year-2013-results-and-reaffir)

In case you don't know what that *B* means... That is _*$3,730,000,000.00 in one year*_.  Just shy of 4 billion dollars.

Average starting salary for full time EMT/Paramedic =_*$31, 020 in one year*_ (the latest Bureua of Labor Statisics report was from 2012 and it combines EMTs & Paramedics from the private AND public sector) (http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/emts-and-paramedics.htm)

I believe I started at about $21,000 GROSS annually as a basic WITHOUT OT. (NOT with Envision) When I transferred to EMSC (later EnVision) I made even less as a basic, clocking in at about $19,000 Gross annually, again WITHOUT OT in a different part of the state with a lower cost of living. In 2014, as a Paramedic in a different state and after going to school to advance skill level, I made about $57, 000 in one year WITH OT (Base is about $47,000)...      _Me= _$57,000, _them=_ 4,000,000,000.00

It is true that you should not accept a job that doesn't pay you enough to make the rent payment. However, the fact that people _want_ to do this job doesn't mean that just because it is a stepping stone, or a minimal skill set, or a position that comes with inherent risks (biological risks, code 3 driving risks, injury risks) doesn't mean that employers should pay low-down-dirty wages. Some folks don't have a choice... It's take this minimum wage job, or be a crook, or be on public assistance...

We ought to make more than a person flipping burgers or a Walmart employee, any way you slice it...But individuals should also do their part in securing suitable wages (relocating, schooling, etc.) Am I saying we should be rich? No, but while the *starting* wages should entice you to progress your education it should also allow you to provide a modest roof over your head and food on the table and a child if you want... if you want to live a minimal lifestyle. If you want 3 kids, a house, a boat, steaks, and that type of lifestyle then you should indeed have to move up the ladder. But the base should be enough to provide for a small family -  you know... _the American dream_. While to us in the business it is the lower step, but to give it equal justice it is not on the level of a burger flipper or a person who took a free first aid class. And it comes with responsibilities that should be better compensated for.

Counter point to the business guys: While it is not your responsibility to put a roof over your employees head, you should be concerned if he can not. Small business owners are generally providing a service to their local community. The local community suffers if wages are insufficient or stagnant. It is a major factor that drives people with progressive motives out while enticing those with more nefarious or self-serving motives in. As a business owner, you should get your big slice... It doesn't need to be a communist style "give me an equal slice." Rather it should be what is fair. And yes, if you want what you believe to be "fair" then go get a better freakin' job. I get that. I did that... but 4B to 57K?!... If I weren't such a damn hard worker, who believes that doing the right thing and working hard and climbing the ladder will eventually pay off,  I would be inclined to give my most minimal productivity humanly possible in the workplace. They ought to pay us more. I understand why we have some lazy folks around in EMS, like every other place. You cannot deny that the cost of everything (food/fun/housing/travel/taxes/registration fees/education/EMS licensing fees/ETC) is rising while the wages are not...

Additionally, just because we can only do what a doc tells us we can do, doesn't mean we shouldn't make more. Are you serious with that? I have the responsibility, and at the end of the day I am the one held accountable for what I do in the field... not that doctor. Your argument is invalid. We _should_ be compensated based on our KSAs and education level... RNs make 2-3 times what we do... in an industry that makes comparable net profits. I'm not trying to debate the RN vs Paramedic pay in particular, but it is a good example for EMS. (A similar comparison would be a policeman vs. correctional officer making the same ballpark salary.) I can intubate, dart, use electrocution, administer drugs, interpret EKGs, etc.. on my own accord and I am liable for my actions. The RN must defer to a Doc. She makes 2-3 times more than me, and I have a trainload of more responsibility than she does... WHY!?! I don't want to be an RN just to make more $$$. I want to do what I love and make that... The system is broken, as a whole. It isn't one businessman's fault. In business there is red and black, in life there is black and white, and in EMS there is a whole lot of ******* grey!

-We should be fixing the problem together, not bantering about who gets what and who is worth more, and where is the line between a greedy businessman and a fair businessman.

Personally, I am working on my degree and on up to MD as well as moving on to a "career" agency.

Also, convicted felons can work at Walmart.... Just sayin.


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## looker (Feb 21, 2015)

People in this thread are forgetting that while there are some multi state ems corps, most are not. Which means they are a lot less resources to , shift cost etc. Also lets not forget what else impacts when the wage goes up, worker comp is tied to employee wage which means that if I raise someone wage, i also pay more in worker comp insurance, and more in payroll taxes. At the same time, medicare and private insurance are lowering their reimbucement, vehicle replacement cost of new vehicles are going up, cost of repair are going up, gas against starting to go back up etc. Basically many local companies are operating on low profit margin and it's not realistic to expect the wage to go up compare to say Walmart which is multistate corporation that making billion of dollars in profit a year. Lastly I never understood people say that employee should get a wage every year when it's really all about supply and demand. If i have 100 employees working for me and i have 50 resume on hr table at anytime, why in the world would I want to pay more unless an employee does something for me that other employees can't do.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 22, 2015)

looker said:


> ...it's really all about supply and demand. If i have 100 employees working for me and i have 50 resume on hr table at anytime, why in the world would I want to pay more unless an employee does something for me that other employees can't do.



Because you actually give a **** about your people and view them as more than just a number. Wow. I hope you aren't an owner of an EMS company. You can't even type in a proper and professional demeanor, let alone think about the people as more than money.

You're the EMS equivalent of the Enron execs that shafted all their folks retirement. Greedy scumbags.

Not to mention that your people will be more productive and efficient if you throw them a bone every now and again. You said yourself... Costs go up- for ALL of us... You drive the cost on to the consumer... Not the employees.

::facepalm::


Don't get it twisted either... I'm not putting forth a sense of entitlement. I'm no more entitled to a fair living wage than the next guy, or the boss. But as I stated, we should be compensated fairly.


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## looker (Feb 22, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> Because you actually give a **** about your people and view them as more than just a number. Wow. I hope you aren't an owner of an EMS company. You can't even type in a proper and professional demeanor, let alone think about the people as more than money.
> 
> You're the EMS equivalent of the Enron execs that shafted all their folks retirement. Greedy scumbags.
> 
> ...


Yes actually i am EMS owner. As for should be compensated fairly that is not how it works. Employees think that i am worth more because i am doing lots of work etc. The reality is how hard employee work do not determine what they get paid. Company pay employee the lowest amount they can and if employee feel they are worth more they are welcome to get a raise by getting another job, another skill etc. EMS is not the industry that shortage of employees so to expect employer to throw someone a bone is the wrong industry to be in.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 22, 2015)

Your strategy is terrible.

What you're talking about is old fashion greed, and you reap what you sow.

I understand the desire to be profitable and have minimal overhead. If I owned a business, I could run it efficiently and with a profit, and still care about my people. Business that have: Google, Costco, Safeway/Vons, railroads, In-N-Out... Etc... Some skilled trades- some not skilled trades... Either way there are ways to run a profitable, efficient, and ethical business while paying a good wage to attract a higher caliber of employee.

People like you are the reason labor unions were formed and labor laws enacted.

You can hire EMTs for $8 an hour... Good for you. Your kids will likely cost you more in terms of turnover, insurance rates and vehicle accidents, errors in practice, poor documentation, etc. in the long run.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

You're part of the problem, and you're trolling me hard on this.


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## akflightmedic (Feb 22, 2015)

I just want to point out for the first time EVER on this forum, I have "liked and agreed" with looker. It was hard to do, but he/she is right. 

Sandpit, you are so wrong about throwing a bone and getting more efficiency and production out of an employee. That little spurt of energy from the bone throwing fades rapidly. What you need is people who do the work as agreed, efficiently and productively as possible every day. We agreed to a price for said service, so perform said service every day you are scheduled...that is the agreement. 

And you also used these massive companies to prove your point. All of these companies at one time were small start ups who did well. At what point do you cap their profit? How do you determine that cap? How do you regulate it? Who enforces it? I asked this earlier of someone else but no reply as of yet. Everyone one of those people at the top believe they are/have achieved The American Dream. Is there only one definition?


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## gotbeerz001 (Feb 22, 2015)

For everyone complaining about your wages:
This is obviously the best option you have or you would do something else, somewhere else. There are opportunities out there for those who have the drive to go after them, the skills to get them and the adaptability to maintain them. 

If you are unwilling to make the personal adjustments required to make THE CAREER YOU CHOSE work with the life you desire to have, I do not see how that is your boss' fault. 

You can keep crying if you wish or find a way to make yourself more valuable.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 22, 2015)

akflightmedic said:


> Sandpit, you are so wrong about throwing a bone and getting more efficiency and production out of an employee. That little spurt of energy from the bone throwing fades rapidly. What you need is people who do the work as agreed, efficiently and productively as possible every day. We agreed to a price for said service, so perform said service every day you are scheduled...that is the agreement.


And I totally can dig that. All I'm saying is as a whole, why should an EMT make less than a Walmart employee? There are small companies paying $15/hr for EMTs... It is possible. Why must you pay the bare minimum? 

I get that as an employer you want folks to stick to the agreement they signed up for. I went through all this testing and payed all these fees and jumped through circus hoops to get this job... So now I'm going to turn it down because I'll have to start at a few bucks less an hour? No, of course I'm gonna take the job even if I think I should make more starting. My hope is to move up to a level of success I desire; everyone starts somewhere.

But while our labor/wage agreement may not have changed, life around us has... I have to pay these dumb increasing fees to NREMT to stay certified, I have to pay the county a fee, I have to pay for finger printing, I have to buy food that costs more, my car registration costs more, phone service costs more, everything is rising and inflation is booming in the economy... Everything is going up... But not my wage.... Because we have an agreement? 
You should also want to retain folks, so they will be better at the job you want done and have their loyalties to you.  

I see both sides. While I see the financial standpoint of... Why give John a raise after 5 years when Jim can come in as a new hire for less money?. 

It is financially a good strategy, but it is an unethical and immoral decision. It's greedy. 

I also see the other side... "It could be raining ***** and troops will complain that the leadership is not providing an equal ration of *******s." I know your business, I know what guys in your business make- and they still complain... Trust me, I understand what you're saying. And I do agree with you to some extent; I like to think I'm a centrist on this issue. Both sides have valid arguments. 
 Which is why I say we should make a little more... Not $35 an hour...


> And you also used these massive companies to prove your point. All of these companies at one time were small start ups who did well. At what point do you cap their profit? How do you determine that cap? How do you regulate it? Who enforces it? I asked this earlier of someone else but no reply as of yet. Everyone one of those people at the top believe they are/have achieved The American Dream. Is there only one definition?



What works best for In-N-Out or Envision may not be best for your business. And I don't think you can put a hard cap on success or a finite number of when it's time to start "spreading the wealth" of a company a little more to the people who's labor and backs contribute a vital factor of that company's success. I know that once you hit a billion you're pretty much set... 500M even? When you have too much money, and you don't know what to do with it - except make more - maybe it would be good to give your people a dollar or two raise, a bonus, something... 

That might not buy you more efficiency or loyalty from everyone. I can only speak for myself, that if I was paid what I was valued... As in.... Somewhere ballpark (even LOWer but a little closer)  to what a fireman and a nurse make who do the same damn job... Then I would be happier, more productive, more eager to "help out." (Ps I always love the employer who asks you to help out the company.." Help us out, come in on your off day..." **** that... I'm here to get paid... This is business, a $4B business. Pay me more if you want my time.) Small businesses that are starting up should be expected to provide a livable wage to prospective employees... Although, obviously the wage would not be as high as a billion dollar company. EMTs should start at about 12-14 per hour. It's reasonable. Medics...low/mid 20's. It just should be that way for what we do.

Not everyone is a hard worker, and some will actually work harder to do less work. I'm not one of those guys, it just isn't in me to be a lazy scumbag. But if we were made to feel valued we may just give that extra inch... Without taking an extra mile or cutting corners.

You see it differently than I do. Naturally, you're the one running the show and taking the risk. I get that.

There isn't a single definition of the American Dream... But there are those who dare to work hard for it, and those who want a handout. If I work hard for you chasing my American Dream, and in turn that helps you accomplish your American Dream.... Then there should be a moral compass that tells you that you should be a just and fair person. 

However, greed is a tale as old as time, and not everyone has a moral compass. As far as I am concerned you actually pay your employees well and have a compensation package that is commensurate with the risk, responsibility, and KSAs of your people. You, and your company, are not part of the problem of the domestic EMS problems we have.    

I think here at home, you'd run a fine ambulance company... And while you stand on the owner/operator soapbox I think you'd pay EMTs more than $8/hr. Then again, maybe I am way off base.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 22, 2015)

gotshirtz001 said:


> For everyone complaining about your wages:
> This is obviously the best option you have or you would do something else, somewhere else. There are opportunities out there for those who have the drive to go after them, the skills to get them and the adaptability to maintain them.
> 
> If you are unwilling to make the personal adjustments required to make THE CAREER YOU CHOSE work with the life you desire to have, I do not see how that is your boss' fault.
> ...



I agree. 

I just think as a whole we should start out making more. The base should be higher. 

I'm not complaining. The base has not increased as the inflation has around us. It's an observation, not a complaint.

And if you want more $$$ in this industry the way it is today then you should do what you have to make yourself more valuable than the guy standing next to you. 100% agree.

You business owners and us employees are not going to 100% agree on this. Our perspectives are vastly too different.  It too is a tale as old as time... The peasants against the Kings.

It will take a great leader or a great revolution to correct the imbalance in our current civilization.


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## looker (Feb 22, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> I agree.
> 
> I just think as a whole we should start out making more. The base should be higher.
> 
> ...



The base can't be higher when there is high supply of qualified people that are ready and willing to work for offered amount. The day company can't find employee and have to refuse transportation and/or have to keep calling their backup provider is the day they will raise their base pay. Till that time there is no reason for a company to pay more.I agree that employee need to make them more valuable be it at current employer or new one. If a go to employee that is always willing to do what is needed to be done etc want to leave because they want higher pay, you can bet that I will think about giving that employee a raise in order to keep them(as long as it's reasonable amount). On the other hand if it's an employee that just show up to work and does minimum she/he need to do in order not to get fired then I honestly don't care if they go to another company. AS i mentioned in my other reply's the reimbursement is dropping and that will have to change as baby boomer starting to retire which will result in much higher need of ambulance.  We already have big ambulance company that does 911 having finance issue.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 22, 2015)

While I don't like what you're saying, and had a relatively hard time translating that into proper English so I could understand it, I agree with it 100%.

Supply and demand- check.
Run an efficient business- check.
Raise for good employees- check.
Screw weak employees- check.

I'm on board with that. I just think ,personally, even if supply is unlimited we should make more salary based on our work and cost of living. Although, I do understand some of the many reasons why we don't make more though. 

I'm on both sides. Unless you're a greedy POS scumbag.  

It is what it is. Moving up the ladder is the only way to find success.

The supply will be unlimited until the Fire Service becomes the FIRE Service once again. That and the education standard needs to be AS at minimum. Until that time, every FF hopeful will be carrying an EMT or P card.

**** in one hand, want in the other... See which one fills up first.


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## Carlos Danger (Feb 22, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> Because you actually give a **** about your people and view them as more than just a number.
> 
> Not to mention that your people will be more productive and efficient if you throw them a bone every now and again. You said yourself... Costs go up- for ALL of us... You drive the cost on to the consumer... Not the employees.



Lots of employers do pay more than they really _have_ to, but it's usually not to be nice to the employees or to benefit their community, it's because in the long run it benefits the employer in lower turnover, more effective employees, and a more pleasant work environment for everyone. Other employers judge that lower turnover and happier employees isn't worth the increased compensation that they have to shell out. It's a business decision that varies based on the perspective of the individuals who are making the decision.

But employers paying higher compensation just out of the goodness of their heart and for no other reason is never going to happen. Nor should it. Paying more for something than it is really worth distorts the true value of the thing you are paying for and hurts the market in the long run. At least if you do it on a widespread basis, anyway. 

When you buy something at Walmart or a fast food place, do you offer to pay more for the item just because you know the people working there don't make much money? Thats' exactly what you are expecting employers to do when you say that they should pay more for labor than it is really worth to them.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 22, 2015)

Remi said:


> When you buy something at Walmart or a fast food place, do you offer to pay more for the item just because you know the people working there don't make much money? Thats' exactly what you are expecting employers to do when you say that they should pay more for labor than it is really worth to them.



You beat me to posting this rational realization by about 40 minutes. Bought an item at a convenience store for $1.49 and got 51 cents back... And thought... Why would I want to give him the 51 cents back and pay $2 for an item that costs $1.49?

My wheels are turning, and I am coming to the light. I don't like it, and it _ought_ to be different, but it is what it is. 

We should make more. Just because of everything I stated earlier. Life isn't fair.

But I must say, I love this site for its wealth of knowledgable individuals and intellectual debate.


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## akflightmedic (Feb 22, 2015)

Everyone SHOULD make more...seems the only way to even the playing field is to go full on communist and that did not work out too well in the past. Socialism seems to have merit but it is a tough concept to sell. 

I think there is a reasonable balance between free enterprise and socialistic concepts which can work. It just takes open minds, willingness to try and support from the top (but all those guys benefit the most from current setup, so good luck)!!

In the meantime, what to do...what to do?


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 22, 2015)

akflightmedic said:


> In the meantime, what to do...what to do?




Lol, go back overseas.


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## RefriedEMT (Feb 22, 2015)

DEmedic said:


> Working as an EMT isn't a career, it's the fast food job of medicine, and quite frankly, only deserves minimum wage pay.



Could not disagree more.


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## NomadicMedic (Feb 22, 2015)

RefriedEMT said:


> Could not disagree more.



What's that? It's an entry level job and requires minimal education.


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## Leatherpuke (Feb 22, 2015)

Some of the comments in this thread make my head hurt. 

 Socialism has no merits unless you are lazy, incompetent, or one of the elite. Those are the only people who benefit from socialism. All it does is make us all equally poor and miserable. 

 The free market economy works, once you get Government and socialist unions out of it. 

 Want to make more money? Go to school or change careers. Quit whining about evil rich people and go BECOME ONE! 

 I'm tired of the " I'm entitled" mentality that is so pervasive these days. Here's a news flash, cupcake. YOU AREN'T ENTITLED TO SQUAT!


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 22, 2015)

Moving from Walmart or Burger King to EMS (which is what this thread devolved to) should not be a step down... Believing that is not a sense of entitlement. On the contrary, it is common sense.

Regardless of the economics of running a business, which I have already ceded to.

It's a broken system.


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## looker (Feb 22, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> Moving from Walmart or Burger King to EMS (EMT) should not be a step down... Believing that is not a sense of entitlement. On the contrary, it is common sense.
> 
> Regardless of the economics of running a business, which I have already ceded to.
> 
> It's a broken system.


I am going to disagree that it's broken system. Mcdonalds, walmart, Burger King, emt should not be a carrier except that a lot of people make it in to that. It's entry level position which basically is just that, entry level. You work there while getting work experience and then you either move up or find a better job and so on while hopefully have gotten some education during the time you were working there. Yes when minimum wage was first created, it was designed for people to be lived on but times have changed and it's not realistic to have high enough minimum wage to actually support a family on.


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## RefriedEMT (Feb 22, 2015)

DEmedic said:


> What's that? It's an entry level job and requires minimal education.



Entry level for EMS, although it does require more training than a real minimum wage job (burger flipper). Also a burger flipper does not have permanent ongoing training that they have to go through every year ( as far as I know) and even if they did I am sure it would be a simple on the job instruction that takes 20 mins compared to 72 hours of national training and 30 hours of state training. But everyone has their opinions, you can keep saying it should be a minimum wage job while I will *NEVER* agree even if i moved on and became a doctor I would still say it.


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## looker (Feb 22, 2015)

RefriedEMT said:


> Entry level for EMS, although it does require more training than a real minimum wage job (burger flipper). Also a burger flipper does not have permanent ongoing training that they have to go through every year ( as far as I know) and even if they did I am sure it would be a simple on the job instruction that takes 20 mins compared to 72 hours of national training and 30 hours of state training. But everyone has their opinions, you can keep saying it should be a minimum wage job while I will *NEVER* agree even if i moved on and became a doctor I would still say it.



How long does it takes to become EMT? Now compare that to becoming to Medic. EMT in ems world is entry level job. You are comparing to different field but you need to compare orange to orange. Entry level job gets paid minimum wage or close to minimum wage.


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## OnceAnEMT (Feb 22, 2015)

looker said:


> How long does it takes to become EMT? Now compare that to becoming to Medic. EMT in ems world is entry level job. You are comparing to different field but you need to compare orange to orange. Entry level job gets paid minimum wage or close to minimum wage.



I agree with looker here in that at this point the argument is over the definition of "entry level job". In true EMS world (EMR left out), EMT-B is entry level, while looking more broad, there are other "more-entry" level jobs available at less of an education requirement.

As well, I think one of the things lacking in this discussion is benefits and overtime. I wouldn't really know about benefits since I haven't worked at a variety of places and still fall under my parents' health insurance, but I would guess that there is a difference between benefits at a city system and at burger king. As well, EMTs are almost guaranteed overtime if your system is large, while fast food workers may be warned if they clock out at 8 minutes past the hour. As mentioned before, an EMT working a 48 hour work week will make less per hour than an EMT working a 40 hour week, but at the end of the year, the salaries will be similar.


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## RefriedEMT (Feb 22, 2015)

looker said:


> How long does it takes to become EMT? Now compare that to becoming to Medic. EMT in ems world is entry level job. You are comparing to different field but you need to compare orange to orange. Entry level job gets paid minimum wage or close to minimum wage.



I am comparing one minimum wage job to being an EMT which you are saying is a minimum wage job, so the comparison is just fine. I agree it is entry level but that does not mean that is should be minimum wage.


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## RefriedEMT (Feb 22, 2015)

This thread is pointless though because we will never agree and that is fine.


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## COmedic17 (Feb 22, 2015)

If the pay is so awful how come you don't furthur your education so you can obtain a better paying job? 


It's like a CNA complaining they don't make enough money and that nurses make so much more. 


Entry level job, entry level skills, entry level pay.


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## akflightmedic (Feb 22, 2015)

Leatherpuke said:


> Some of the comments in this thread make my head hurt.
> 
> Socialism has no merits unless you are lazy, incompetent, or one of the elite. Those are the only people who benefit from socialism. All it does is make us all equally poor and miserable.



Such a bass ackwards perspective as mentioned earlier...you got be open minded to change and progression. There are elements of socialism we ALL benefit from for the better, without being lazy, incompetent or elite. But some people you will never convince of this...gimme guns and Jesus...'Murika!



Leatherpuke said:


> The free market economy works, once you get Government and socialist unions out of it.



Study this a little more....all it does is further widen that gap of haves and have nots, which is why government had to intervene and create a middle class not too far ago in our history.



Leatherpuke said:


> Want to make more money? Go to school or change careers. Quit whining about evil rich people and go BECOME ONE!



I DID!!   I did---well, minus the evil part. Yet despite becoming a 1%'er, I still find time to be charitable and advocate for improving the average man's condition. I pay a shyte ton in taxes and I want that money put to healthcare, education and other beneficial programs...you know that whole moral/ethical thing we touched on earlier. Kind of hard to shake that, either you got empathy or you don't.



Leatherpuke said:


> I'm tired of the " I'm entitled" mentality that is so pervasive these days. Here's a news flash, cupcake. YOU AREN'T ENTITLED TO SQUAT!



No, you are correct. No where are we contractually obligated to anything, however as one of the wealthiest nations on the planet if we even invested 5% of our defense budget into social programs, you know...take care of our own first mentality...there would be no stopping us. Like some posters said, invest in your people, give them little perks and they will be MORE productive and MORE effective...this applies to the citizens as well. A lot of people agreed with that concept, so why not apply the same to our own freaking people in our freaking country??? Why does it suddenly become "all about you" or "I got mine, F them"?

Invest in your people and they will pay you back...same as employees. Will all of them? Nope, not at all, but enough will to where a difference will be made.

If anyone disagrees with that concept applied on a national level, then you have to disagree with supporting that kind of financial motive with the workplace. Cause it IS the same...


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## looker (Feb 22, 2015)

RefriedEMT said:


> I am comparing one minimum wage job to being an EMT which you are saying is a minimum wage job, so the comparison is just fine. I agree it is entry level but that does not mean that is should be minimum wage.


Yes you are comparing one entry job to entry job. So lets take a look of what makes entry job minimum wage. It's relatively easy entry(education is not hard), it do not takes long time, there are high supply of emt's. Education it self cost relatively cheap. The job it self is not hard after getting education. Let also not forget that while no education is required to get in to fast food industry, you do have to stand for long time if you are working for example at McDonalds. As emt's most of the time you are sitting and might be even sleeping in your rig while waiting for call. At fast food place, even if there is no customer you have always something to clean etc. Basically entry job is entry ob and market set the wage for this entry job.


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## RefriedEMT (Feb 22, 2015)

looker said:


> you do have to stand for long time if you are working for example at McDonalds. As emt's most of the time you are sitting and might be even sleeping in your rig while waiting for call. At fast food place, even if there is no customer you have always something to clean etc. .



Okay you got me.........cuz EMTs don't walk the streets at any point in time right? they don't clean their stations and rigs? they have maids for that, oh and don't forget they always have plenty of breaks so they can eat lunch and dinner. Okay you got me....your right...


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## gonefishing (Feb 22, 2015)

RefriedEMT said:


> Okay you got me.........cuz EMTs don't walk the streets at any point in time right? they don't clean their stations and rigs? they have maids for that, oh and don't forget they always have plenty of breaks so they can eat lunch and dinner. Okay you got me....your right...


They also don't encounter  dangerous  situations  work in all weather or come in contact with such things as mrsa, cdiff either.lol


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## gotbeerz001 (Feb 22, 2015)

@Refried, until I became a medic I didn't understand how little an EMT actually does. 

While there is a significant difference between working with a good EMT vs a bad one, neither can compare to working with even a marginal second medic.

While I don't believe that an EMT working in a 911 system is a minimum wage job, I also don't understand the mentality of someone who decides to be a career EMT. This is generally a profession of people who strive to be the best they can be. To me, a career EMT is likely someone who enjoys the attention brought by the position but lacks the testicular fortitude to actually accept responsibility for the outcome of a patient.

No points for standing on the sideline.


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## gotbeerz001 (Feb 22, 2015)

gonefishing said:


> They also don't encounter  dangerous  situations  work in all weather or come in contact with such things as mrsa, cdiff either.lol


I believe these are largely represented in the job announcement somewhere below the offered wage.


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## gonefishing (Feb 22, 2015)

gotshirtz001 said:


> I believe these are largely represented in the job announcement somewhere below the offered wage.


LOL just adding fuel to the fire


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## RefriedEMT (Feb 22, 2015)

haha....I don't know where the stuff about being a career EMT came from cuz I was only talking about it not being a minimum wage job, I have every intention of moving up to the very least EMT-I or possibly becoming an RN but I can see what your saying even when it really is false since an EMT takes responsibility for every patient they TX, even if most are not going to crash on you.


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## akflightmedic (Feb 22, 2015)

gonefishing said:


> They also don't encounter  dangerous  situations  work in all weather or come in contact with such things as mrsa, cdiff either.lol



A simple youtube search will pull up countless videos of robberies, failed robberies, assaults, jackoffs with attitude, etc....so I disagree. Fast food workers do encounter all types of people...and people tend to be at their worst when they are either A) Sick/Injured or B) HUNGRY!!!

In addition to this, MRSA is everywhere along with every other funky disease/illness out there so anyone working in any public interaction capacity is "exposed". I would go so far to wager unless the bulk of your EMS shift is inside a retirement home, the fast food worker comes into contact and more exposure than the average EMS worker in any given shift. Have you ever taken microbiology and tested a common dollar bill? Scary stuff!

I myself have puked inside a fast food joint and some poor ******* had to clean it up not knowing who I was or if I had any condition he should be concerned about. I have left some pretty bad toilet scenes as well (talking over my life, not recently).

In short, I think certain people need to stop trying to glorify EMS into something it really isn't and instead focus on doing what others have stated. Improve yourself, improve your life...or, simply accept your life will be "mediocre" and live it to the fullest. I do not agree a simple, basic, happy life is mediocre, just playing along with what people seem to be striving for which for most is unattainable despite nothing actually being wrong with that life.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 22, 2015)

RefriedEMT said:


> Okay you got me.........cuz EMTs don't walk the streets at any point in time right? they don't clean their stations and rigs? they have maids for that, oh and don't forget they always have plenty of breaks so they can eat lunch and dinner. Okay you got me....your right...


I agree with you mostly and am your ally. But keep it civil. Do not make your points with sarcasm and by being condescending. It is an emotional issue... I was emotional and heated earlier(and I apologize), but like with everything... If we come at it objectively and leave emotion at the door... We have a chance at successfully altering the opinions of others and clearly demonstrating logical solutions. We think clearer and are able to articulate better. I'm with you brother, 100%, entry EMT is not entry bag boy or janitor. I'm with you. But remain calm, and bring objectivity to the table.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 22, 2015)

gotshirtz001 said:


> I believe these are largely represented in the job announcement somewhere below the offered wage.


That doesn't make it right.


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## RefriedEMT (Feb 22, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> I agree with you mostly and am your ally. But keep it civil. Do not make your points with sarcasm and by being condescending. It is an emotional issue... I was emotional and heated earlier(and I apologize), but like with everything... If we come at it objectively and leave emotion at the door... We have a chance at successfully altering the opinions of others and clearly demonstrating logical solutions. We think clearer and are able to articulate better. I'm with you brother, 100%, entry EMT is not entry bag boy or janitor. I'm with you. But remain calm, and bring objectivity to the table.



Your right, I'm sorry about that. (sets sarcasm/emotion down and walks through the door)


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## COmedic17 (Feb 22, 2015)

I'm going to poke the cage a bit ( but it's true ).  

An EMT is to EMS as a CNA is to nursing.

Just to put it into perspective.


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## RefriedEMT (Feb 22, 2015)

Sorry the cage is empty. hehe...


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## RocketMedic (Feb 23, 2015)

So, here's my take on this: hourly wages don't really matter in a field that does long-hour shifts anyway, but what does matter is compensation overall, and hourly wages are an easy incomplete way to measure that.

In any industry, there's tiers of jobs. For convenience,  I label them 1-4.
Tier 1 is entry-level. They're jobs that pay enough to live comfortably with your parents, but to make it on your own, you're either a monk or cost-sharing. Minimum-wage, long hours, reliant on overtime, etc. Practically all non-Fire EMT jobs fall into this. Low pay, no job security, etc.
Tier 2 is the AMR/Acadian/entry-level independent living, where you make "enough to get by". It's usually paramedic-level. Apartment, car, etc. This is where I lived and most paramedics are- I can afford to live independently modestly, but supporting a family would be very challenging. Most damning though is the lack of job security and realistic retirement option. You can usually start at a Tier-2 if you're not terminally insecure or objectionable. 
Tier 3 is the "good" places- career places. Pay north of 50k a year, stable and secure, real pension and benefit plans, etc. They don't want the cost of training new recruits and are hard to get on with fresh out of school, but are worth the effort- career places. High-end AMR, Hall, etc and most non-horrible government services get here.
Tier 4 is where unicorns live. Speedboats, mansions, houses, etc. LA County Fire, CCFD, critical-care RN, PA, etc. Family, Jesus, and luck with a lot of hard work get you here.

The thing is that employers like looker are, by their own decisions, limited to the market they target- kind  of like "dress for the job you want", "pay for the market you want". Places that pay minimum wage for EMT and argue over whether or not to pay every hour at work are never going to go away, but they're one audit away from bankruptcy themselves and by definition cannot attract enough of the right people to ever be more than a taxi. looker Ambulance might be a great animal in its chosen environment,  but it can't compete outside of it and is exceedingly vulnerable to any changes. Looker knows this and accepts that risk, and continues to accept it by Scrooging hard. As a side effect, his short-term savings lock out potentially lucrative sources of income like county 911 contracts, etc. He relies on a steady flow of fresh blood to live.

Tier 2 services are where most of us are or have started. It's "just enough", but these places are paradoxically limited to what they do now by their lack of willingness to invest in their people and their cost-focused approach to everything and a reliance on expansion and key contracts to support the whole ediface. They actually lock themselves out of markets by underserving their clients and customers and create that underservice by skimping on pay, excitement and quality. A perfect example is Acadian Texas. They market themselves to clients and prospective employees as the cat's own ***- CCT, ESOP, etc and flashy equipment,  acronyms and schemes. They then introduce a host of factors that make it less acceptable- byzantine and archaic PTO and multiple pay rates, cost-sharing, lower incidence of 911 vs BLS transfer, etc from the employee's view (driving employees away and destroying retention and potential growth until it becomes a standard or requirement), and illusory or absent ambulance coverage or inadequate capabilities from the client's perspective. At a higher cost than Tier-1, but with sporadic and generally-crappy coverage, communities eventually build a Tier 3 if they care. Tier 2 is dependant on the same flow of new people that looker gets, but is trying to compete with everyone for everything and loses as many as it wins.

Tier 3 places aren't flashy. They aren't loud, if anything, they're low-key. But they're low-key because they're busy pushing the boundaries of what can be done. They can afford to run a little more aggressively because they can recruit and attract better people and more ambitious people who won't justifiably quit at the first better option and keep them longer.

Tier-4 does whatever it wants, because Tier-4 takes Vacation in Tahiti this quarter. You don't leave a T4 unless you die or retire or win the lottery.


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## DrParasite (Feb 23, 2015)

gotshirtz001 said:


> While I don't believe that an EMT working in a 911 system is a minimum wage job, I also don't understand the mentality of someone who decides to be a career EMT. This is generally a profession of people who strive to be the best they can be. To me, a career EMT is likely someone who enjoys the attention brought by the position but lacks the testicular fortitude to actually accept responsibility for the outcome of a patient.
> 
> No points for standing on the sideline.


For my agency, an EMT starts part time  at ~13 an hour, regardless of experience, and a FT EMT makes $15.  a medic starts at 15.70, with 0 experience.  if you are hired as an EMT, and go to medic school, you start as a 0 experience medic.  from what I was told, we haven't gotten raises in almost 5 years.  We have quite a few "career" EMTs, who aren't looking to go to medic school any time soon.  can you see why?

from what I have been told, the new administration is looking at fixing this, but i'm waiting and seeing.


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## COmedic17 (Feb 23, 2015)

You also have to take into account where you are living. I'm willing to bet EMTs in California make more then EMTs in Iowa because the cost of living differences.


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## gonefishing (Feb 23, 2015)

COmedic17 said:


> You also have to take into account where you are living. I'm willing to bet EMTs in California make more then EMTs in Iowa because the cost of living differences.


Emts in California largely make $9 an hour to start.  The cost for an average studio apartment is $1k and over. Add in all the other bills and you have a formula for poverty or somebody  that qualifies for government assistance.


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## RocketMedic (Feb 23, 2015)

Basically, looker is getting this guy:
	

		
			
		

		
	






	

		
			
		

		
	
 to fly
	

		
			
		

		
	





	

		
			
		

		
	
 against every other dude with 3.5 wheels and a cot, with all the consequences that entails. Local, low-security, and can only really do one or two things at all (maybe strafe ground troops and recce) and not very well at that. They're the Sopwith Camels of EMS.

AMR and Acadian has graduated a bit to single wings and a radio, but can reasonably do most easy things to some degree of "decent enough" faster, better and without a lot of extra training than Looker can, but are both costly and short-ranged and lack room for improvement beyond the obvious- like the FW-190 or P-47, and although the crews are good, there's a steep learning curve and most people quit fast to work at Arby's or go to college. 

Tier-3 services are good at doing what's demanded now, in the near-term future and can reasonably soldier on with incremental improvements because they can retain enough of the professionals who really care and are capable of doing a lot more than Looker's hardy crew or AMR's brave new pilots.





Tier 4 dudes just have to worry about what alien woman to seduce this weekend:


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## DrParasite (Feb 23, 2015)

For profit companies (like lookers) have one goal: to make money.  so the less they pay their employees, as long as they can bill successfully, the more money they make.  makes sense right?

so what's the incentive to pay more for staff?  well, if I can replace every employee with a new grad, pay rock bottom wages, and as long as they fill out the paperwork well enough to bill, it's a win for my company.  Also, as long as a new grad will accept minimum wage or below what you feel the industry thinks EMS personnel are worth, there is no incentive for employers to offer any more.

Personally, I won't work for a for-profit agency unless I have no other options.  non-profits and government funded agencies tend to pay better.  for profit is all about the bottom dollar  (as it should be, hence the term for profit), and that often means "we don't are about the quality of care, as long as we can still bill for the trip and make $$$"

if we want to have wages go up, we need to do the following thing: 1) everyone needs to stop accepting jobs for less than you think you should be making.  if an employer can't find staff for the salary they are offering, they will need to change something 2)  quit your per diem or part time EMS job.  only work OT at your FT job.  unless an employer needs to pay more, there is no incentive to hire more 3) if your underpaid, quit your job and find a job that pays you better.  the longer you stay in a job that under pays you, the lower the incentive there is for management ot change anything.


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## RocketMedic (Feb 23, 2015)

Health care, by the way, is presenting EMS with about this level of challenge:
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	
















Good luck,  looker.


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## Chimpie (Feb 23, 2015)

@looker Adding odd sized pictures to your conversation in attempt to make your point is just... odd.



DEmedic said:


> Working as an EMT isn't a career, it's the fast food job of medicine, and quite frankly, only deserves minimum wage pay.





RefriedEMT said:


> Could not disagree more.





DEmedic said:


> What's that? It's an entry level job and requires minimal education.



@DEmedic What if that person has no desire or no need to advance, or for more money. If they work 5, 10, 20 years as an EMT. Is that not a career?



RefriedEMT said:


> This thread is pointless though because we will never agree and that is fine.



That's not the sole purpose of threads. To participate in a forum you have to have an open mind. You don't have to agree with someone's opinion, but you have to be able to understand their point of view.


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## RefriedEMT (Feb 23, 2015)

Yea your right, I just could not get them to understand my position as me and SandpitMedic understand that EMTs are not working at the level of a bag boy and therefore should make more than a bag boy.


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## COmedic17 (Feb 23, 2015)

We are not saying you are a bag boy. 
All that has been said is that an EMT takes minimal schooling and skills, and that is why you get less pay. A bag boy might be a type of entry level position to a grocery store, but an EMT is entry level to EMS. 

And if you don't agree with the pay, no one is forcing you to continue to be an EMT. You could go to school to obtain a higher certification/degree, or change career fields. Or you could pick up a part time job to supplement your income. That's what a lot of people have to do. 

No one said "EMTs don't do anything". We are just saying the scope of what you can do is very small, and that's reflected in your pay scale. We would all love to make more money. But it is what it is.


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## RocketMedic (Feb 23, 2015)

An EMT is essentially a bag boy though. Burger flippers generally also run the fryer, stock, clean and register too. A Burger Flipper is more of a paramedic analogue


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## STXmedic (Feb 23, 2015)

RefriedEMT said:


> Yea your right, I just could not get them to understand my position as me and SandpitMedic understand that EMTs are not working at the level of a bag boy and therefore should make more than a bag boy.


Just for future knowledge, you won't often change somebody's mind. It often takes a very good argument to sway somebody's opinion. @SandpitMedic and I tend to demonstrate this very well  It does happen, but don't get upset if the other person doesn't share your view.


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## RocketMedic (Feb 23, 2015)

Pictures say a thousand words.


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## RefriedEMT (Feb 23, 2015)

Yea I never expected to change any minds, only to make them understand my position. As I read the recent posts I can still see they do not understand because I do not believe EMT's should be paid a great amount of money I believe it should simply be at the very least a little higher than minimum wage. I do not work as an EMT for the money, I do it for the kind of work that it is and I only hope that EMT's can be paid enough to make a living. It is as simple as that.


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## RocketMedic (Feb 23, 2015)

RefriedEMT said:


> Yea I never expected to change any minds, only to make them understand my position. As I read the recent posts I can still see they do not understand because I do not believe EMT's should be paid a great amount of money I believe it should simply be at the very least a little higher than minimum wage. I do not work as an EMT for the money, I do it for the kind of work that it is and I only hope that EMT's can be paid enough to make a living. It is as simple as that.



Why? If people will literally work for legal minimal wage or below, why pay more?


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## gonefishing (Feb 23, 2015)

RocketMedic said:


> Why? If people will literally work for legal minimal wage or below, why pay more?


Because it comes down to either starve or qualify for food stamps and government assistance while holding a job.  Atleast with a poverty wage you qualify for low income housing, food stamps and government medical care.  It than just makes taxes go up lol


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 23, 2015)

COmedic17 said:


> We are not saying you are a bag boy... no one is forcing you to continue to be an EMT.
> 
> No one said "EMTs don't do anything".



Someone pretty much did.



gotshirtz001 said:


> @Refried, until I became a medic I didn't understand how little an EMT actually does.
> ...a career EMT someone who enjoys the attention but lacks testicular fortitude...
> No points for standing on the sideline.




I'm willing to bet you two didn't feel that way on your first day of EMT school about being an EMT with your shiny new boots and great attitudes.

Do you even Paragod, bro?


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## RocketMedic (Feb 23, 2015)

gonefishing said:


> Because it comes down to either starve or qualify for food stamps and government assistance while holding a job.  Atleast with a poverty wage you qualify for low income housing, food stamps and government medical care.  It than just makes taxes go up lol


Those don't sound like problems a business owner worries about. They are certainly things to consider when discussing how to retain qualified employees, but they're not something to worry about when it comes to keeping the doors open if you've committed to supply a minimal-level service.


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## Chewy20 (Feb 23, 2015)

Don't know what the issue is. ****** EMTs that look like absolute dog crap, posting pictures on Instagram about how they are saving lives on shift today with their trauma shears at the ready, when the most they will use them for is cutting out coupons while posted in a truck, waiting to take grandma back from here doctors appointment deserve way more money...


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## NomadicMedic (Feb 23, 2015)

Chimpie said:


> @DEmedic What if that person has no desire or no need to advance, or for more money. If they work 5, 10, 20 years as an EMT. Is that not a career?



@Chimpie It depends on how we define career: If we use the following 





> an occupation undertaken for a significant period of a person's life and with opportunities for progress.


 then no.

If we use this as the working definition, 





> the time spent by a person while committed to a particular profession.


then sure.

I believe there is a distinct difference between a career and a job. If an entry level employee stayed at the same position for 15 years with no ambition or initiative to move up or grow, I would say that person worked at a job for 15 years.
When they eventually left, I'd thank them for their service.

If an employee started work as an entry level EMT, and over 15 years, through a program of formal education, coupled with personal and professional growth, earned a paramedic certification, CCEMT and then a BS in Management, subsequently moving into administration, I would say that the individual had a successful career in EMS.

We need to be realists. Bag boys don't stay as bag boys at the Kroger unless they have ZERO options. McDonald's counter help doesn't put on that polyester suit everyday counting down to the gold watch at retirement.

EMT's, as the system is set up now, are not career employees. They're simply filling a job slot.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 23, 2015)

Lol.


Chewy20 said:


> Don't know what the issue is. ****** EMTs that look like absolute dog crap, posting pictures on Instagram about how they are saving lives on shift today with their trauma shears at the ready, when the most they will use them for is cutting out coupons while posted in a truck, waiting to take grandma back from here doctors appointment deserve way more money...


 Tell us how you really feel. 

Haha. EMT bashing on an EMT forum. Classic.


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## Chewy20 (Feb 23, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> Lol.
> 
> Tell us how you really feel.
> 
> Haha. EMT bashing on an EMT forum. Classic.


 
Lol see about ten of those pictures a day.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 23, 2015)

Chewy20 said:


> Lol see about ten of those pictures a day.


I don't even know what that means.


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## COmedic17 (Feb 23, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> Someone pretty much did.



I didn't see anyone say they don't do anything. People have been saying they do very little. And that's true. Half of what they can do ( compressions, use of a bvm) are taught in a BLS CPR course. Anyone with a pulse can take a cpr course. Aside from that, they can take vitals, and use BLS airways and in some states, supraglottic airway. But that's pretty much it. Is it more then a bag boy? Yes. But not profusely more.


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## RocketMedic (Feb 23, 2015)

In most pit-crew CPR layouts, the EMT is literally assigned to handle the bag, set up meds, etc. as soon as enough assistance arrives to turn the BVM and compressions over to the firefighters and paramedic(s) on-scene. So yeah...literally bag boy.


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## OnceAnEMT (Feb 23, 2015)

RocketMedic said:


> In most pit-crew CPR layouts, the EMT is literally assigned to handle the bag, set up meds, etc. as soon as enough assistance arrives to turn the BVM and compressions over to the firefighters and paramedic(s) on-scene. So yeah...literally bag boy.



Here in Austin where a secured airway is a secured airway, Basics can and often are in the airway position in pit crew, including dropping an IGel (used to be King). The only difference in a BLS and ALS code is the use of the LP and ACLS, which is 2 paramedics (one on the meds, one on the monitor as Code Commander).


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## Chewy20 (Feb 23, 2015)

RocketMedic said:


> In most pit-crew CPR layouts, the EMT is literally assigned to handle the bag, set up meds, etc. as soon as enough assistance arrives to turn the BVM and compressions over to the firefighters and paramedic(s) on-scene. So yeah...literally bag boy.


 
Except you don't do 911 correct? So what does that make a paramedic? Gurney boy with a monitor?

PS, I don't give up my responsibilities on an arrest.


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## Chewy20 (Feb 23, 2015)

Grimes said:


> Here in Austin where a secured airway is a secured airway, Basics can and often are in the airway position in pit crew, including dropping an IGel (used to be King). The only difference in a BLS and ALS code is the use of the LP and ACLS, which is 2 paramedics (one on the meds, one on the monitor as Code Commander).


 
Actually we are never in the airway position. Can be, but all I am doing on scene is drawing up meds and making sure everyone is on track. Unless we beat fire there somehow airway is their job. Which is good, because I don't want to sit there for 45 mins squeezing a bag. I've dropped kings in the back of the truck. The commander is there really as a helping hand and brain.


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## RocketMedic (Feb 24, 2015)

Chewy20 said:


> Except you don't do 911 correct? So what does that make a paramedic? Gurney boy with a monitor?
> 
> PS, I don't give up my responsibilities on an arrest.



I have never actually run a 911 call. I tend to use a "range walk" because it works better. It's been like forty hours since my last one, I think I forgot how to do it. (although Acadian will drown you in BLS transfers here in San Antonio).


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## RocketMedic (Feb 24, 2015)

I've not ever done an arrest though, my amazin'Basic Chewy is always there to SAVE me from mahself.


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## looker (Feb 24, 2015)

RocketMedic said:


> ....
> The thing is that employers like looker are, by their own decisions, limited to the market they target- kind  of like "dress for the job you want", "pay for the market you want". Places that pay minimum wage for EMT and argue over whether or not to pay every hour at work are never going to go away, but they're one audit away from bankruptcy themselves and by definition cannot attract enough of the right people to ever be more than a taxi. looker Ambulance might be a great animal in its chosen environment,  but it can't compete outside of it and is exceedingly vulnerable to any changes. Looker knows this and accepts that risk, and continues to accept it by Scrooging hard. As a side effect, his short-term savings lock out potentially lucrative sources of income like county 911 contracts, etc. He relies on a steady flow of fresh blood to live.
> 
> ....


911 is not money making for company instead it's level /prestige when it comes to getting other contracts. IFT is bread and butter of most ambulance as depending what area you are doing 911 in, it might result in you actually losing money. Getting in to 911 in Southern California is not easy being how many ambulance companies we got in addition that usually prior 911 experience is preferred/required.


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## Chewy20 (Feb 24, 2015)

Uhhh k? @RocketMedic


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## RocketMedic (Feb 24, 2015)

looker said:


> 911 is not money making for company instead it's level /prestige when it comes to getting other contracts. IFT is bread and butter of most ambulance as depending what area you are doing 911 in, it might result in you actually losing money. Getting in to 911 in Southern California is not easy being how many ambulance companies we got in addition that usually prior 911 experience is preferred/required.


Exactly,  looker. It's a prestige and recruitment tool. You simply decide not to buy that tool because it's expensive and you don't need it. A lot like how a Steerman is perfectly adequate for recreational flying,  but not modern air combat.


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## irishboxer384 (Feb 24, 2015)

Off the top of my head most of us wish for these things in a job:

1- good pay/benefits/pension
2- job satisfaction
3- decent amount of vacation
4- within close proximity to home
5- good management
6- advancement
7-good equipment 

So unless you are 'ticking' most of those boxes at your current position...MOVE ON AND STOP COMPLAINING. Or, facilitate change by being proactive: become management, form a union, move into politics and lobby for better pay/benefits. The old 'not enough pay when compared to....' argument can be made to apply to pretty much any career.

In my experience one huge reason for people not advancing themselves educationally or professionally is simply fear. Fear of failure and fear of the unknown. Which is why I have utmost respect for those who attempt to set up their own company, float or sink. I've had colleagues set up their own firms to the sound of  sniggers from so-called 'friends', only for said colleagues to go on to make millions. In EMS noone is going to hand out extra money, there has to be huge change...and if you are not happy with your pay, move up or move out or simply...stop complaining.


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## medicaltransient (Feb 24, 2015)

I think all of healthcare should be regulated as not for profit and that is our problem. The longer I work in EMS the more chicanerous things I see.


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## Chimpie (Feb 24, 2015)

medicaltransient said:


> I think all of healthcare should be regulated as not for profit and that is our problem.


Can you explain your reasoning on this?


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## Summit (Feb 24, 2015)

Key to a low paying job:

1. Low barrier to entry
2. Job is fun
3. Job is desirable (many view it as a ticket punch on the resume)
4. Job has social or economic perks like respect or discounts

EMS is a "Glamour" job with societal perks and low barrier to entry that many people need on their resume to move on to other jobs = people lined up for the job = easily replaced employees = barely above minimum-wage for newer employees despite high responsibility and physical labor/risk = high turnover = mostly junior staff with a few senior providers barely making lower-middle-class hourly wages 

The only two solutions that I see are to increase the barrier to entry by educational requirements and reduce the desirability of EMS as a resume ticket punch by working to make EMS a healthcare profession and separate it from Fire/Law public safety. But I feel like I've been banging that drum for over a decade.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 24, 2015)

Am I the only one not getting the pilot references and pictures by Rocket?


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## gonefishing (Feb 24, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> Am I the only one not getting the pilot references and pictures by Rocket?


I do.lol


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## RocketMedic (Feb 24, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> Am I the only one not getting the pilot references and pictures by Rocket?


The basic job of transport can be accomplished by anyone with a pulse, a 120-hour education and a cheap crate of a plane, but modern demands require that pilots be able to fly and fight and that requires more education and training to handle more capable equipment and more challenging missions.


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## RocketMedic (Feb 24, 2015)

irishboxer384 said:


> Off the top of my head most of us wish for these things in a job:
> 
> 1- good pay/benefits/pension
> 2- job satisfaction
> ...



If you can't find these locally, move.


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## dank (Feb 25, 2015)

Grimes said:


> Every example you just used is taught in free first aid classes around the world. Style points for vomiting. Everything else we do requires a doc to say we can, and it can be youtube'd. There is nothing special about Basics.
> 
> A burger flipper prepares raw meat for cooking and delivery to a customer, providing a clean and safe product. A burger flipper has more opportunity to accidentally cause someone harm than a Basic does on a regular basis.


 Last time I checked you did not get state certified and spend half a year in class to do first aid.  If it were that easy you could just go down to the local Y and in a few hours pick up an EMT certification.

I have a part-time EMT job that pays $15/hour.


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## RocketMedic (Feb 25, 2015)

So, Dank, what exactly does an EMT do that actually has any medical significance beyond that first aid? (Especially in an ALS system)


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## Carlos Danger (Feb 25, 2015)

medicaltransient said:


> I think all of healthcare should be regulated as not for profit and that is our problem.



I'm not sure how anyone can look at the VA, CMS, or the ACA (obamacare) and seriously think that the government should be _more involved_ in the healthcare system.




RocketMedic said:


> So, Dank, what exactly does an EMT do that actually has any medical significance beyond that first aid? (Especially in an ALS system)



I think the "all EMT's do is drive an ambulance and do basic first aid so they aren't worth much" thing is going a little too far.

911 response and patient transport is an important job, and EMT skills alone can adequately handle probably 90% of patient transports. In fact, a good argument can be made that dollar for dollar, an EMT is _more valuable_ than a paramedic, and that most ALS agencies wouldn't even be able to exist if it they could only bill for clinically justifiable paramedic interventions.

None of that really matters when it comes to compensation, though. We aren't paid for the amount of our training or even for how important our job is. Our compensation is based on labor market conditions. If the relative importance of our job determined our pay, pro athletes would make minimum wage and garbage men would all earn six figures.


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## NomadicMedic (Feb 25, 2015)

dank said:


> Last time I checked you did not get state certified and spend half a year in class to do first aid.  If it were that easy you could just go down to the local Y and in a few hours pick up an EMT certification.



Half a year? 
http://www.pelhamtraining.com/EmsPrograms/EmergencyMedicalTechAccelerated.aspx
http://www.unitekeducation.com/emt-training/14-day-emt-boot-camp

It IS basic first aid. Please don't kid yourself. I do believe we teach EMTs a lot of the wrong stuff. Rather than focusing on how to BVM a CHF patient (WTF?) we should be teaching defensive driving, customer service strategy and how to move and position bed bound patients. How to clean up the patients that have a BM in transit. How to interface with SNF nurses and dialysis techs. All the really important stuff that EMTs are NEVER taught.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 25, 2015)

Hey Chimpie lets just go ahead and change the name of the site to ParamedicLife.com.

Seeing how worthless EMTs are around here nowadays.

People seem to forget their roots, and that although we have low levels on the totem pole EMR, EMT, EMT-A.... We are all part of a team. 

And each specialized member of that team provides an invaluable asset towards our goal... Which is patient care. 

Let's stop the bashing on our own profession. 95% of our calls are BLS... 

Just because we think the bread and butter of our job is simple AND DESERVES A RAISE does not give credence to the notion that any schmuck with a CPR card can come in and contribute to the team as a trained and certified EMT does. 

We all agree we need higher education standards, but to say they're bag boys?! Get over yourself. With that mindset screw paramedics- lets just BLS everything and then diesel bolus the remaining 5% to the ER... So the real medical professionals can do their work.

Shape up.


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## irishboxer384 (Feb 25, 2015)

Remi said:


> We aren't paid for the amount of our training or even for how important our job is. Our compensation is based on labor market conditions. If the relative importance of our job determined our pay, pro athletes would make minimum wage and garbage men would all earn six figures.



This all the way...


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## RocketMedic (Feb 25, 2015)

If you define yourself by your skills, youre not building a case for a raise...


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## Mthom (Feb 25, 2015)

There's plenty of people that want to be EMTs (and are willing to work for free), and people aren't necessarily lining up to work at Walmart, let alone volunteer. A job is a job, but still...

Yeah, so the way I see it, WalMart is having trouble keeping its workers, so they need to raise their wages to keep them. For customers, there may be a rise in prices. If you thought razor blades were expensive before...

As it relates to EMS, a rise in wages equals more expensive care for pts, and how many people are paying for the service?

Seriously, how many? I'm still in school here (have my test coming up soon, though).

Not in the field yet, and while I believe EMS professionals should be paid according to the stress/dangers/lost time with family related to the job, as said before, it's all about market conditions.


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## akflightmedic (Feb 25, 2015)

Mthom said:


> Garbage Collection professionals should be paid according to the stress/dangers/lost time with family related to the job



Agreed! (fixed it for ya) I mean if we are going to use those standards to base pay on...those dudes are riding on a back of a truck every single day, going into the dodgiest neighborhood ghettos, exposure to the elements, rain, snow or shine they are in it...exposure to unfriendly animals, exposure to whackos in general, heavy lifting constantly, bad smells, hour after hour every single day.

True Heroes!


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## gonefishing (Feb 25, 2015)

akflightmedic said:


> Agreed! (fixed it for ya) I mean if we are going to use those standards to base pay on...those dudes are riding on a back of a truck every single day, going into the dodgiest neighborhood ghettos, exposure to the elements, rain, snow or shine they are in it...exposure to unfriendly animals, exposure to whackos in general, heavy lifting constantly, bad smells, hour after hour every single day.
> 
> True Heroes!


Around here the machine does everything and they earn $70k a year.


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## Mthom (Feb 25, 2015)

akflightmedic said:


> Agreed! (fixed it for ya) I mean if we are going to use those standards to base pay on...those dudes are riding on a back of a truck every single day, going into the dodgiest neighborhood ghettos, exposure to the elements, rain, snow or shine they are in it...exposure to unfriendly animals, exposure to whackos in general, heavy lifting constantly, bad smells, hour after hour every single day.
> 
> True Heroes!



Well, I can agree with that. I wasn't referring to just EMS (I guess I may have typed it that way, though).  Professions in general should have pay in relation to the conditions of the work, and be in line with market trends. As far as I can see, our population is growing, which will mean more houses and more trash to pick up, in this case, so I foresee higher wages for them in the future.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 25, 2015)

Here the garbage man makes like 75k a year and drives in a truck that does it all and with more technology than my ambulance..... So yeah....


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## gonefishing (Feb 25, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> Here the garbage man makes like 75k a year and drives in a truck that does it all and with more technology than my ambulance..... So yeah....


That's because of the evil unions


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## Mthom (Feb 25, 2015)

Well, like I said, pay in relation to working conditions. 75k seems a bit much for a garbage man... What's the cost of living around you?


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## gonefishing (Feb 25, 2015)

Mthom said:


> Well, like I said, pay in relation to working conditions. 75k seems a bit much for a garbage man... What's the cost of living around you?


To live above poverty in my area is figured for one adult $11.37 an hour minimum.
$23 to $24k before taxes.


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## Mthom (Feb 25, 2015)

... I don't know enough about garbage men to comment any further lol


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## gotbeerz001 (Feb 25, 2015)

I know that in municipalities, Public Works are the LAST to be on the chopping block; even higher than Police and Fire. Crime may surge, homes may burn but the garbage and **** will be mitigated.


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## gonefishing (Feb 25, 2015)

gotshirtz001 said:


> I know that in municipalities, Public Works are the LAST to be on the chopping block; even higher than Police and Fire. Crime may surge, homes may burn but the garbage and **** will be mitigated.


LOL nobody wants to walk into a pile of adult diapers outside a con home am I right!?


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## PotatoMedic (Feb 25, 2015)

gotshirtz001 said:


> I know that in municipalities, Public Works are the LAST to be on the chopping block; even higher than Police and Fire. Crime may surge, homes may burn but the garbage and **** will be mitigated.


Sanitation has been the best thing for public health in human history.


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## Mthom (Feb 25, 2015)

^Can't argue with that.


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## akflightmedic (Feb 25, 2015)

So we are going to call BS on the analogy because in your little pocket of this huge country it is automated and unionized? Just checking...


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## gonefishing (Feb 25, 2015)

akflightmedic said:


> So we are going to call BS on the analogy because in your little pocket of this huge country it is automated and unionized? Just checking...


Just pointing something out and actually alot of the state is the same way so not just a tiny pocket but one of the largest states in this country.


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## akflightmedic (Feb 25, 2015)

You sure speak confidently for such a large state...just sayin.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 25, 2015)

FireWA1 said:


> Sanitation has been the best thing for public health in human history.


That's the truest thing anyone has said in this entire thread!


----------



## SandpitMedic (Feb 25, 2015)

We should all have this conversation over beers... And I want to sit next to @irishboxer384


----------



## irishboxer384 (Feb 25, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> We should all have this conversation over beers... And I want to sit next to @irishboxer384



id be too busy blind drunk and talking to the urinal


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 25, 2015)

akflightmedic said:


> So we are going to call BS on the analogy because in your little pocket of this huge country it is automated and unionized? Just checking...


Averaged salaries:
Garbage man (mean) $24.60/hour (latest stats 2014) (40 hour work week) http://www.bls.gov/iag/tgs/iag562.htm#earnings
EMT/Paramedic $15.17/hour (mean specific to ambulance services)(latest stats 2013) (greater than 40 hour work week) http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes292041.htm#nat


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 25, 2015)

I'm so over going in circles about this. I've already stated that I have mostly sided with the business owners.... But I still think overall the wages should go up A TAD... For all of us.... And yes I understand the mechanisms preventing that.


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## OnceAnEMT (Feb 26, 2015)

akflightmedic said:


> So we are going to call BS on the analogy because in your little pocket of this huge country it is automated and unionized? Just checking...



Its that way around central Texas as well, if not all of Texas. If not 70k, they certainly make more than teachers here.


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## RocketMedic (Feb 26, 2015)

Sanitation employees are the beneficiaries of strong unions, a distasteful and very necessary job and modern apathy towards waste management. Most of us will go our lives without needing EMS more than once, or will be able to make arrangements for care. Even the chronically-ill do not generally need EMS daily- but trash? We all make some, every day. It's literally unavoidable. And for most Americans, we can't just toss it outside or burn it due to where we live, so we collect it. The catch? There's no nobility in garbage disposal in sanitation. It is literally dealing with trash and feces and nasty, disgusting things. There's no one volunteering to do it, no one getting an adrenaline rush off of it and not a lot of people looking to do it. In many places, it's either a city monopoly or a private service that does it and recruits people with the prospect of a stable job. It's got great pay and benefits because it's both dangerous and distasteful and it's important that it be consistent- and they have unions willing and able to literally leave the trash on the sidewalk if their demands aren't met. It's a lot more acceptable to leave a Hefty bag full of trash next to an overflowing dumpster because they're not paying you than it is to leave Grandma passed out on the floor.

Sanitation is one of my personal backup plans if I ever need to leave EMS. It's great money and great job security.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 26, 2015)

I'd like everyone to stop what you're doing...

Read the first post of this thread... And the one above mine......


What.the.****.does that have to do with EMS?
Every job has its pros and cons. To you, a garbage man is on high above the policemen and the firemen and all of us here at EMTlife.... To me.... My profession is worth more than garbage.

Taking your ill or injured mother, father, son, daughter, wife, grandma, best friend to the hospital rates second to taking out the trash?! Seeing drowned, burned, and abused children while you miss your own child's birthday/concert/graduation due to work is akin to the filth of removing household waste?! You likened the garbage man to the septic tank cleaner (feces)? I've yet to see a garbage man with fecal matter on his hands.... (I see a lot of garbage men- our ops building is .25 miles away from the local garbage plant/depot/ops or whatever you want to call it.) Thrusting on grandmas chest and cracking ribs, telling a mother there is nothing you can do for her dead SIDS baby, and looking a child in the eyes as he asks you if his mommy is okay as you enter the house.... That measures up to picking up your old newspapers.?! Oh and they should be paid more because of strong unions and a lack of adrenalin?! Like the adrenalin you get when you get a rush of air after a needle decompression and see someone take a big fat breath of fresh air (not that garbage air)?! Or the smell of burning flesh?! Or is that unlike the rush or air that swoops around and smells like trash when the garbage man dumps his load...yeah, very similar..... I'm sure the RN midwife who couldn't even manage to put oxygen on my first pedi-code from a home birth rates somewhere between me and the garbage man in your eyes.

I could spend 99% of my time sitting in my truck eating cookies and watching Netflix or shuffling grandma or running BS ETOH calls, but it only takes one time of me running on YOUR ****ing kid after he accidentally shoots himself in the face with the handgun you left unsecured....and THEN I rate HIGHER than the garbage man.?

I'm not here to get rich, but I should be able to support my own family without working 60 hours a week!

This is AN EMS WEBSITE! I expect to be under appreciated by society and by the community because they don't know what we do! They don't understand what we see. I'm not whining... I can handle myself and the tough aspects... But when I come here and see my own people belittling our own profession?!?!

This is ********.
You have all lost perspective. You're burn't.... WasteManagement inc is waiting for you! GTFO.

If I get banned so be it... I've tried to be rational with you people... But you're too ****ing greedy and you've forgotten why you signed up for EMT class to begin with. it's rediculous. Your opinions, while you're entitled to them, suck.
Check yourselves. If you had a time machine to go back and say that garbage (literally)to yourself you'd be ashamed of yourself.


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## RocketMedic (Feb 26, 2015)

Sandpit, we're not greedy, at all. I sense a lot of motivations are the same, and yes, I really enjoy helping people. That's why I choose to do this job. 

Sad fact of life is that we're not paid for what we do, the horrible things we occasionally see and do or even the stress of what we put up with or the responsibilities we have. We're paid based on what the market for our labor is willing to pay us. If we were paid for what we put up with, CNAs, fry cooks, soldiers and first responders would be kings. But let's look at the labor and educational requirements for those menial positions- minimal, if any. Compare that to your high-earning professions that require years of study to even enter.

Everything you pointed out is horrible, PTSD-inducing high-octane nightmare fuel, but what worth does it have? What worth does your work have, particularly if your sole function is to provide transport? It's not worthless by any stretch of the imagination, but what financial value are you going to put on managing resuscitations that are rarely successful in the first place? What financial value are you attributing to your daily functions? And who is paying for it?

The sanitation industry benefits everyone daily and their absence is immediately notable. Police ostensibly provide a public benefit to everyone. Fire departments are deliberately highly visible and good ones cut insurance rates for property, saving money. What does good EMS do for the community that doesn't involve medical care?


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## RocketMedic (Feb 26, 2015)

Dissection time!



SandpitMedic said:


> I'd like everyone to stop what you're doing...
> 
> Read the first post of this thread... And the one above mine......
> 
> ...



-If I could go back in time, I'd have invested in desalination, water drilling, hydraulic engineering and water-efficient sanitation. Why? Because I have realized that Priority #1 isn't patients, patient care or even being a professional paramedic. Priority #1 is personal prosperity, which encompasses financial security, personal happiness and security. All else is a means to that end. "_There is no honor in poverty._"


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 26, 2015)

I'll run 10 unsuccessful ones... If I can get one successful one. That's why I'm here. Obviously, I'd like to save them all, but I also know the reality.

It isn't about how many you lose, it's about how many lives you touch.


There's no honor in getting rich off of the backs of others, and perpetuating the downward spiral of our civilization instead of being a person who gains success for themselves by bettering their own society.


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## RocketMedic (Feb 26, 2015)

Let's face it, being a paramedic simply doesn't have a lot of value to most people.


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## RocketMedic (Feb 26, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> I'll run 10 unsuccessful ones... If I can get one successful one. That's why I'm here. Obviously, I'd like to save them all, but I also know the reality.
> 
> It isn't about how many you lose, it's about how many lives you touch.
> 
> ...



Nope, it's about how many people you can help in a meaningful way and reimbursement for same (preferably in advance as a sort of prepayment scheme). Yes, it sucks that your grandmother isn't breathing, but quite frankly, if you and Gram-Grams weren't smart enough to pay for my services when I needed to make rent and pay bills (ie voting down taxes, etc) then that's your failure and I am under no inclination or obligation to help. Kid falls over dead at the high school and needs high-speed CPR, but Kiddo's parents refused to pay the extra taxes or whatever for EMS service and CPR/Defibrillator placement? Sucks to be Kiddo, maybe his family will learn. Johnny and Susie get in a car wreck and need advanced airways in a timely manner but all that comes out is BLS volunteers because the community opted not to pay? Not. My. Problem. I'll respond on a mutual-aid for PR reasons, but it's nothing I'll roll out of bed for if it's not going to benefit me. If I choose to volunteer, it's because I will benefit in some way from it, not out of any sense of duty.


What very much is my problem is the altruistic, self-depreciating, and value-blind "ethic" of EMS that demands we work, sacrifice and rate ourselves based on the worst calls ever. 

To me, that moment when a paramedic can show up, make the pain stop (thanks to a wise and generous contribution on taxes, contract, stipend, etc), and transport you safely and efficiently to an appropriate facility for further care, the moments when we can resolve a critical situation and the moments we can divert people to less-expensive and more appropriate treatments are far, far more satisfying and profitable.


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## RocketMedic (Feb 26, 2015)

Here's some real talk for you:

AMR here in San Antonio offered me 10.34 an hour for a 911 shift on a 24/48 in South Texas. That comes to about $34,700 annually, assuming you don't work extra. It's a pretty decently-busy 911/IFT system, and plugs into a busy all-IFT system here in San Antonio. And you know what? I'd have taken it anyways over Acadian's IFT/911 system in San Antonio/Bexar County, because Acadian's 16.61 an hour for paramedics only yields an effective pay rate of $35,600 on the current schedule. Either way, I'd be working between 25 and 33% of my life for wages that barely support my relatively minimalist lifestyle. So you know what I did? I fired up the Internet and kept looking. And I found a unicorn- a municipal, single-role ALS paramedic service that pays more than $14,000 a year more than AMR for less times worked and has better _everything_. I found a lot better than Acadian too- and more importantly, I was able to get hired. I turned in my two-week's notice and will be starting soon with my new employer, and I'm doing it with a song in my heart and a smile on my face. But let's look at the effects.

I was one of 70 or so medics at EMSA-OKC, of whom about 40 were working at any one time. My leaving forced AMR to recruit and pay for a replacement (expected and normal), but also increased costs of business and response times for a few weeks until I was replaced. Here at Acadian, I'm one of ninety or so paramedics, and my departure will adversely affect both 911 response times and care rendered (since there's not a lot of paramedics to go around) and existing interfacility contracts (because they need to staff the ambulance somehow). For AMR, not being able to bring me aboard for their operation is worse- they run a smaller crew and place more demands on their people, and not being able to place me on a truck means that they're either going to have to recruit more aggressively and at greater cost or that they're going to have to keep someone out there longer to cover, which raises issues of fatigue, burnout and still risks running out of resources due to inadequate staffing. In all cases, we can see a direct correlation between staffing and pay- if the pay isn't enough, I'm not staying.

A lot of services rely on the fresh flow of experience-hungry, eager, adrenaline-seeking new and usually young medics and extremely-humble ambitionless people to staff their trucks. That's their way and I won't bash it, but they get what they pay for. I'm 26 and I care more about personal prosperity for myself and being able to start a family than I do about Envision Healthcare's profit margins, Richard Zuschlag's private jet or even the citizens of Bexar County who care more about the grass at their parks than the ambulances that come when they call for help. If they were willing to offer better pay, I would stay- but I'm not going to live a monastic life to help people who don't care about me and demonstrate that daily with their pocketbooks.


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## Chewy20 (Feb 26, 2015)

@RocketMedic dude you live in Texas, there are plenty of departments that pay pretty dang good money. I know more than half of them probably are not up to your "standards" that you have mentioned in the past. Go find it.


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## TransportJockey (Feb 26, 2015)

Chewy20 said:


> @RocketMedic dude you live in Texas, there are plenty of departments that pay pretty dang good money. I know more than half of them probably are not up to your "standards" that you have mentioned in the past. Go find it.


If you read his last post, he did just that.


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## DesertMedic66 (Feb 26, 2015)

Heck that's why I have been looking at our highway patrol. Starting pay fresh out of the academy is 74k a year with amazing benefits. Plus after 1-2 years on the road I would be able to apply for their flight medic position.


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## TransportJockey (Feb 26, 2015)

DesertEMT66 said:


> Heck that's why I have been looking at our highway patrol. Starting pay fresh out of the academy is 74k a year with amazing benefits. Plus after 1-2 years on the road I would be able to apply for their flight medic position.


Border patrol wouldn't be a bad gig either. Their BORSTAR team is pretty bad ***


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## COmedic17 (Feb 27, 2015)

Grimes said:


> Here in Austin where a secured airway is a secured airway, Basics can and often are in the airway position in pit crew, including dropping an IGel (used to be King). The only difference in a BLS and ALS code is the use of the LP and ACLS, which is 2 paramedics (one on the meds, one on the monitor as Code Commander).


I am the only medic unless one just so happens to be on the fire truck. Which is not common. i take firefighters ( whom are all emt) with me as needed and have an EMT partner if that changes your perspective.


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## COmedic17 (Feb 27, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> Hey Chimpie lets just go ahead and change the name of the site to ParamedicLife.com.
> 
> Seeing how worthless EMTs are around here nowadays.
> 
> ...


There's no possible way "95%" of my calls are BLS. Where are you getting your "facts"? Maybe in IFT 95% are BLS. Not what I have seen, though.


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## gonefishing (Feb 27, 2015)

COmedic17 said:


> There's no possible way "95%" of my calls are BLS. Where are you getting your "facts"? Maybe in IFT 95% are BLS. Not what I have seen, though.


I think they ment largely as a whole.  Theres alot of bs calls.  But I too wouldn't say 95% and as always every call usually starts with bls.


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## COmedic17 (Feb 27, 2015)

gonefishing said:


> I think they ment largely as a whole.  Theres alot of bs calls.  But I too wouldn't say 95% and as always every call usually starts with bls.


I get equal ALS then BLS.
If anything probably a little more ALS. 

So saying 95% is BLS is not only a far stretch, but pretty ridiculous. I have a hard time respecting people's opinions when they create things up and try to pass them off as truth. 



"I fight Dragons".
From now on, I expect to be referred to as 'The Dragon Slayer'. Thank you for your cooperation.


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## gonefishing (Feb 27, 2015)

COmedic17 said:


> I get equal ALS then BLS.
> If anything probably a little more ALS.
> 
> So saying 95% is BLS is not only a far stretch, but pretty ridiculous. I have a hard time respecting people's opinions when they create things up and try to pass them off as truth.
> ...


That was a good video game! lol
 Wait..... I was thinking Dragons Lair.


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## COmedic17 (Feb 27, 2015)

gonefishing said:


> That was a good video game! lol
> Wait..... I was thinking Dragons Lair.


I'm just talking about Dragons in general.


......I'm the reason they are extinct, you know.


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## gonefishing (Feb 27, 2015)

COmedic17 said:


> I'm just talking about Dragons in general.
> 
> 
> ......I'm the reason they are extinct, you know.


Yea you should see my unicorn collection on my wall.


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## COmedic17 (Feb 27, 2015)

gonefishing said:


> Yea you should see my unicorn collection on my wall.


My daughter would be appalled.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 27, 2015)

.... I meant largely as a whole.
Not precisely 95%;  it's probably closer to (GUESSTIMATING) 75- 80% BLS or what should be BLS. Of those, maybe only 25% would benefit from an ambulance, totes-magoats.

I'm not quite sure if there are adequate stats on the numbers of ALS vs BLS, considering the amount of over-treatment that goes on.

I can assure you that because _you _think that anxiety attack/ETOH/4 day tummy ache/flu/etc needs to be placed on an EKG, does not make it a true ALS call.


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## dank (Feb 27, 2015)

Mthom said:


> There's plenty of people that want to be EMTs (and are willing to work for free), and people aren't necessarily lining up to work at Walmart, let alone volunteer. A job is a job, but still...
> 
> Yeah, so the way I see it, WalMart is having trouble keeping its workers, so they need to raise their wages to keep them. For customers, there may be a rise in prices. If you thought razor blades were expensive before...
> 
> ...


 A rise in wages equals more expensive care for pts, not true!  If that were the case why is every dead beat with a stubbed toe asking for a ride to the hospital.  You know right well that if people had to pay for a ride to the hospital we would stop getting all the BS calls.  Most places have the two notification rule.  We send you a bill twice and if you don't pay, you don't pay.


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## dank (Feb 27, 2015)

It IS basic first aid. Please don't kid yourself. I do believe we teach EMTs a lot of the wrong stuff. Rather than focusing on how to BVM a CHF patient (WTF?) we should be teaching defensive driving, customer service strategy and how to move and position bed bound patients. How to clean up the patients that have a BM in transit. How to interface with SNF nurses and dialysis techs. All the really important stuff that EMTs are NEVER taught.[/QUOTE]

You are WAY to full of yourself.  Last time I checked basic first aid was taught in boy scouts and I did not see them being taught to administer medication or check people for trouble breathing or how to do a trauma assessement.  Being an EMT IS not basic first aid.

I did spend half a year getting EMT certification!
Emergency Medical Technician:
Start Date: 03-15-2015
End Date: 08-02-2015 
Location: MFRI Northeast Regional Training Center

http://www.mfri.org/cgi-bin/schedule.cgi?S=MDFS&R=3


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## Angel (Feb 27, 2015)

DesertEMT66 said:


> Heck that's why I have been looking at our highway patrol. Starting pay fresh out of the academy is 74k a year with amazing benefits. Plus after 1-2 years on the road I would be able to apply for their flight medic position.



I saw that and plan on putting in an app. im definitely surprised it pays that good, and retirement is great as well.


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## dank (Feb 27, 2015)

Angel said:


> I saw that and plan on putting in an app. im definitely surprised it pays that good, and retirement is great as well.


 Yes, but does 75K go that far out there?  We have the same program here in Maryland and they don't pay that much. Upon Successful completion of the Trooper Academy the salary is increased to $44,124. If accepted into the Aviation Command for a Trooper Medic position the salary is increased to $49,624*.   *So here in MD to be a trooper Medic you are only makeing around $5,500K more.


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## Angel (Feb 27, 2015)

for nearly everywhere except the bay area and probably LA. but for central valley on up, id be living like a king. thats more than twice what i make now. and thats just the _starting_ wage. like desert said, if i could do some kind of flight medic/tactical stuff itd be the perfect job.


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## gotbeerz001 (Feb 27, 2015)

COmedic17 said:


> There's no possible way "95%" of my calls are BLS. Where are you getting your "facts"? Maybe in IFT 95% are BLS. Not what I have seen, though.


I could BLS 95% of my calls... Doesn't make them BLS calls, but I could BLS them. 

Eventually I would lose my license.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 27, 2015)

gotshirtz001 said:


> I could BLS 95% of my calls... Doesn't make them BLS calls.
> 
> Eventually I would lose my license.



Nice jab. C'mon now, don't kid yourself.

Also, it's a certification, not a license... Perhaps you need a refresher.

CHP would be a cool job, if you want to be AAA with a gun....


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## gotbeerz001 (Feb 27, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> Nice jab. C'mon now, don't kid yourself.
> 
> Also, it's a certification, not a license... Perhaps you need a refresher.
> 
> CHP would be a cool job, if you want to be AAA with a gun....


I would lose my medic license (CA) if I invariably did only BLS interventions on my ALS patients.


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## Carlos Danger (Feb 27, 2015)

COmedic17 said:


> There's no possible way "95%" of my calls are BLS. Where are you getting your "facts"? Maybe in IFT 95% are BLS. Not what I have seen, though.



There is no way to know exactly what percentage of patients transported by EMS are "true" ALS patients, of course.

But if you look at the types of patients that ALS interventions have actually been shown to consistently and positively affect outcomes in, it is really a very small subset of transports. Severe asthma, certain cardiac patients, etc.....I think that's about it. 

Personally, based on what I've read and seen in my 15 years in EMS, I would guesstimate that in most systems, BLS could safely transport 90% or more of all patients - prehospital or IFT - without any decrease in patient outcomes.


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## NomadicMedic (Feb 27, 2015)

dank said:


> You are WAY to full of yourself.  Last time I checked basic first aid was taught in boy scouts and I did not see them being taught to administer medication or check people for trouble breathing or how to do a trauma assessement.  Being an EMT IS not basic first aid.
> 
> I did spend half a year getting EMT certification!
> Emergency Medical Technician:
> ...



So, you took 5 months to complete a 130 hour course. Good for you.

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/MeritBadges/mb-FIRS.aspx I certainly don't want to split hairs here, but this Basic First Aid module includes CPR and AED use, splinting, moving patients and LOTS more. Maybe MFRI could just give out a merit badge? 

Oh wait, EMTs learn about oxygen too. The red cross offers that class: Administering Emergency Oxygen Contact Hours: 2.5 CEUs Awarded: 0.3

It's a job with with an entry level skill set, and should be paid accordingly. And honestly, paramedics shouldn't be paid much better. And in many cases, they're not.
Wanna make more money? Get a better education and become a nurse, doctor or garbage man.
Hell... there's people that will VOLUNTEER to do this job. How does that improve the value of the EMT?


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## COmedic17 (Feb 27, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> .... I meant largely as a whole.
> Not precisely 95%;  it's probably closer to (GUESSTIMATING) 75- 80% BLS or what should be BLS. Of those, maybe only 25% would benefit from an ambulance, totes-magoats.
> 
> I'm not quite sure if there are adequate stats on the numbers of ALS vs BLS, considering the amount of over-treatment that goes on.
> ...




I would say a large amount require either drugs- or are trauma. All trauma calls are run ALS until proven otherwise.


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## irishboxer384 (Feb 27, 2015)

dank said:


> Last time I checked basic first aid was taught in boy scouts and I did not see them being taught to administer medication or check people for trouble breathing or how to do a trauma assessement.  Being an EMT IS not basic first aid.
> 
> I did spend half a year getting EMT certification!
> Emergency Medical Technician:
> ...



1- length of course is not indicative of quality or amount of info gained- you spent half a year doing something that could be (and is done) in a matter of weeks
2- any reasonably minded teenager could easily be taught how to do the same things an EMT can including checking for 'trouble breathing or trauma assessment' as you said


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## Mthom (Feb 27, 2015)

So you're all saying that the role an EMT plays pales in comparison to that of a medic?


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## COmedic17 (Feb 27, 2015)

Mthom said:


> So you're all saying that the role an EMT plays pales in comparison to that of a medic?


In an emergent ALS call, yes. 

For a pshyc patient with no other medical problems, I would say it's pretty even.


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## Mthom (Feb 27, 2015)

I'm not talking strictly ALS. I'm talking in general. This is starting to sound like the whole "nurse bashing medics" thing, except now it's medics bashing basics.


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## irishboxer384 (Feb 27, 2015)

Mthom said:


> So you're all saying that the role an EMT plays pales in comparison to that of a medic?



Would you rather have 100 emts or 100 paramedics? Obviously we dont have that luxury hence we have different levels of training to fill the gaps.
EMTs are vital in the same way plumbers, electricians and garbage disposal is vital. But this thread isn't about usefulness, it is about $$$ and the reality is some parts of the country pay great for EMTs, some pay crap, but you can say that about alot of professions, and for a 120 hour course that is no different.


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## Mthom (Feb 27, 2015)

Well, the topic for the past few posts hasn't been completely about money, it's been about bashing Basics. I wouldn't compare the level of training a boy scout can pursue to a Basic EMT class. Nothing against the BSA, as I am a former member, but it's demeaning. Just remember that you all were basics at one time or another.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 27, 2015)

gotshirtz001 said:


> I would lose my medic license (CA) if I invariably did only BLS interventions on my ALS patients.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ooooh 
Well... Ok then.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 27, 2015)

COmedic17 said:


> All trauma calls are run ALS until proven otherwise.



That's absurd. 90-95% of trauma management is BLS. Save for thoracic, airway, or brain insult or something that warrants pain management (but even still could be managed BLS without much difference in pt outcome.) Even bleeding out could be managed with BLS methods and fluids (BLS in some parts of the U.S.)

Not arguing about that anymore. You do you.


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## irishboxer384 (Feb 27, 2015)

Mthom said:


> Well, the topic for the past few posts hasn't been completely about money, it's been about bashing Basics. I wouldn't compare the level of training a boy scout can pursue to a Basic EMT class. Nothing against the BSA, as I am a former member, but it's demeaning. Just remember that you all were basics at one time or another.



I have the utmost respect for basics- in the same way i have respect for other services such as police, firefighters etc...my point of view is that it should be 3rd service to ensure they get the benefits that they deserve etc...but since they are private, nothing is gonna change.


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## Angel (Feb 27, 2015)

I just don't get what a paramedic would say paramedics don't deserve to get paid more....yea we should raise the standards to a degree requirement, but to (at some places) make just over $11/hr? 
Who's side are you on?
For the record I have 3 AA degrees in science and liberal studies and waiting for my paramedic degree to come and will be going finishing my bachelors next year. This isn't just a hobby


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## DesertMedic66 (Feb 27, 2015)

Mthom said:


> Well, the topic for the past few posts hasn't been completely about money, it's been about bashing Basics. I wouldn't compare the level of training a boy scout can pursue to a Basic EMT class. Nothing against the BSA, as I am a former member, but it's demeaning. Just remember that you all were basics at one time or another.


Boy scouts is pretty much first aid. It's usually done with a merit badge or 2 that takes maybe 8-12 hours. 

EMT is like an advanced version of first aid in many places in the US. In my area of SoCal there aren't many meds at all that an EMT can give aside from oxygen and maybe some activated charcoal  (not in the BLS level here). There are very few meds we are able to assist patients with (epi pens, MDIs, and nitro are about the only ones). You can assist patients with epi pens at a first aid level (at least when I took the merit badge course).

For the medic level you can assist patients with their medications and give a lot more medications and a decent number of other critical interventions. 

This is coming from my point of view as an Eagle boy scout, former EMT, and now paramedic.


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## gotbeerz001 (Feb 27, 2015)

Mthom said:


> I'm not talking strictly ALS. I'm talking in general. This is starting to sound like the whole "nurse bashing medics" thing, except now it's medics bashing basics.


I am not bashing basics. I am saying that a good basic pales in comparison to being partnered with a even marginal medic. The fact that I can split all calls evenly makes my day SO much easier. 

For the basics out there, I assume the majority of you are planning to become medics. If you are trying to carve out a career as a transporting EMT, you have your work cut out for you. I can't understand choosing to work in this field and staying at the ground floor.


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## Angel (Feb 27, 2015)

i didnt see anything bashing basics, but rather stating the harsh reality that...the school to become an EMT isn't all that long, hard or difficult to do. School itself barely scratches the surface and it takes a lot of confidence, time and experience to be a good EMT. 
some are content to just carry gear and drive, but to be able to anticipate your medics next move and have a good handle on BLS skills makes a huge difference.


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## akflightmedic (Feb 28, 2015)

Angel said:


> I just don't get what a paramedic would say paramedics don't deserve to get paid more....yea we should raise the standards to a degree requirement, but to (at some places) make just over $11/hr?
> Who's side are you on?



Because some people are realists and able to separate the facts from the emotions and analyze exactly the true nature of why paramedics are paid "so low".

Pick any career or any job title. If you put more than one of them in a room, eventually the discussion will turn to "why are we not paid more when we do this and that, and sometimes this. No one understands what we do or how much value we have. We should be paid X"!

The above will take place every single time. So the fact that I or others hear Medics making the same claims is not about being on "a side", it is about being rational and objectively analyzing the situation.


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## Mufasa556 (Feb 28, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> .....
> 
> CHP would be a cool job, if you want to be AAA with a gun....



That's my dream career! I'd spend my whole shift spot checking and jamming up private ambulances.


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## Angel (Feb 28, 2015)

@akflightmedic , so you think you deserve to be paid 10.80/hr?


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## DesertMedic66 (Feb 28, 2015)

Mufasa556 said:


> That's my dream career! I'd spend my whole shift spot checking and jamming up private ambulances.


That wouldn't go over too well with the higher ups at CHP


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 28, 2015)

Mufasa556 said:


> That's my dream career! I'd spend my whole shift spot checking and jamming up private ambulances.


Lmfao!!! Now we're talking! I'll submit my app right now! Look out @looker


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## akflightmedic (Feb 28, 2015)

Angel said:


> @akflightmedic , so you think you deserve to be paid 10.80/hr?



There you go with the "deserve" and the reality of it all. Almost EVERYONE in ANY career or job "deserves" to be paid more if you sit down and analyze what they contribute to society and how much added value there is.

I think the register girl at Dunkin Donuts deserves to get paid more than what she does...she is at work by 0400 every day, greets everyone with a smile, is nice and serves me really good coffee just the way I like it.

Should she be paid more? Not at all...


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 28, 2015)

akflightmedic said:


> There you go with the "deserve" and the reality of it all. Almost EVERYONE in ANY career or job "deserves" to be paid more if you sit down and analyze what they contribute to society and how much added value there is.
> 
> I think the register girl at Dunkin Donuts deserves to get paid more than what she does...she is at work by 0400 every day, greets everyone with a smile, is nice and serves me really good coffee just the way I like it.
> 
> Should she be paid more? Not at all...


You _could _tip her. 

If you wanted to. Or felt like she's the most superb cashier ever.


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## akflightmedic (Feb 28, 2015)

I do tip...but it is irrelevant to the point of the story. Regardless of how good a cashier she is, she is just a number and a dozen people tomorrow could replace her. Service could be same, better or worse...all is irrelevant.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 28, 2015)

I know.. I was being facetious.


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## Angel (Feb 28, 2015)

Lol ok, since you're not going to answer the question I'll take that as a no.


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## looker (Feb 28, 2015)

Basically now that we had that argument on wages and what emt do, now let talk what can really be done to get EMT wage to go up. The answer is future technology. Basically for emt to get high wage they need to have more responsibility in the ambulance and more importantly more technology to help them have ability to have higher responsibility. More technology means more education, more education means higher cost for education. Higher cost of education will result in higher wage as it will be harder and will take longer to become emt. Until that actually happens, emts wages will not go up unless national/regional unemployment rate go up.


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## irishboxer384 (Mar 1, 2015)

looker said:


> Basically now that we had that argument on wages and what emt do, now let talk what can really be done to get EMT wage to go up. The answer is future technology. Basically for emt to get high wage they need to have more responsibility in the ambulance and more importantly more technology to help them have ability to have higher responsibility. More technology means more education, more education means higher cost for education. Higher cost of education will result in higher wage as it will be harder and will take longer to become emt. Until that actually happens, emts wages will not go up unless national/regional unemployment rate go up.



id suggest:

1- the ambulance license shouldnt be a $35 ticket but a few weeks long advanced driving course
2- associates at a minimum (with accredited prior learning given by colleges for experienced paramedics without the credits
3- unions followed by demand for certain target benefits, pensions, and contracts similar to city/local governments

(i love lists)


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## looker (Mar 1, 2015)

irishboxer384 said:


> id suggest:
> 
> 1- the ambulance license shouldnt be a $35 ticket but a few weeks long advanced driving course
> 2- associates at a minimum (with accredited prior learning given by colleges for experienced paramedics without the credits
> ...


Regarding your number 2 and 3. Please tell me what need is there for associate degree at this point? EMT is a skill and certification. You don't need all of the associates degree classes to be emt but hell I could be wrong and hopefully you will explain it. Regarding number 3, that just demanding more pay without there really being a reason to pay you more. Union slowly but surely are starting to die and that is a good thing.


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## Angel (Mar 1, 2015)

unions dying?! no they arent, the california nurses union is constantly striking against something, and CA has the highest paid nurses (that I know of) 
and associates means people have to be able to pass basic math and english before licensing, no more of that functional illiteracy crap. 
Personally id like to do away with all EMTs and make it AEMT level with an associates, and Paramedics more like CCT medics with a BS requirement. 
Hopefully it happens before I die


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## gonefishing (Mar 1, 2015)

Unions a bad thing? LOL!!!!!!!!!!
You like weekends right? Federal Holidays? 
Labor laws, rules and regulations? I'm sorry but this is America not the ussr or china.  I have belonged to unions before, nemsa a waste of my time but several others such as the steel workers union and have seen both sides of the tracks.  I've been an employee and an employer I have a college education in something other than language arts or art history.     Unions are not always bad.  Yes there are some bad ones that serve absolutely no purpose because they represent false representation to employees.  Usually unions come in when **** really hits the fan amongst a certain labor group with them and poor management.  The mentality of "us"vs "them" it shouldn't be you vs your employee but retaining employees and figuring out how to beat your competition in a legal and tasteful way.


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## irishboxer384 (Mar 1, 2015)

looker said:


> Regarding your number 2 and 3. Please tell me what need is there for associate degree at this point? EMT is a skill and certification. You don't need all of the associates degree classes to be emt but hell I could be wrong and hopefully you will explain it. Regarding number 3, that just demanding more pay without there really being a reason to pay you more. Union slowly but surely are starting to die and that is a good thing.



i read emt and 'thought' paramedic, so my points were meant towards paramedic my mistake


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## akflightmedic (Mar 1, 2015)

Angel said:


> Lol ok, since you're not going to answer the question I'll take that as a no.



I did answer the question. If it is not as direct as you would like, let me try again.

Yes, I deserve to be paid $10.80 an hour. Do I want to be paid that? No, no one wants what they are getting, they always want more and will find ways to try and justify more. But yes, I deserve $10.80 per hour.


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## Angel (Mar 1, 2015)

It's sad you think so little of yourself, your profession and your skills, but don't assume the rest of us do. Nah, you can keep you $11/hr. Not me though. And don't bring the rest of us down with you... (assuming you even work in the states, I can't remember)


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## SandpitMedic (Mar 1, 2015)

Angel said:


> It's sad you think so little of yourself, your profession and your skills, but don't assume the rest of us do. Nah, you can keep you $11/hr. Not me though. And don't bring the rest of us down with you... (assuming you even work in the states, I can't remember)



He's a millionaire who owns a successful company that contracts with the U.S. government overseas.

While I agree with your premise, I don't think he is "down" with the rest of us.


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## Angel (Mar 1, 2015)

*rolls eyes* even more reason for him not to comment, but I digress.


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## SandpitMedic (Mar 1, 2015)

?
He wasn't always that. 
But I'll let him speak for himself.


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## Tigger (Mar 1, 2015)

Angel said:


> *rolls eyes* even more reason for him not to comment, but I digress.


Yea no. We actually value diverse opinions here.


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## akflightmedic (Mar 1, 2015)

It is not a personal valuation, it is a professional one. And no matter which way I express it you seem to miss the point and cannot examine this objectively. You asked how I felt and I replied as everyone's answer will always be the same. However, when you ask what we deserve...that is an entirely different story.

As for myself, I have a very interesting story and will one day put the book out. I have been a paramedic since 1993 and I still maintain the license. I still think and speak like a paramedic. However, I was never satisfied with where I was so I did something about it.

As a medic I thought my wages were too low, so I became a flight medic. As a flight medic I thought the wages were too low so I went to the arctic and worked austere/remote medicine. After a while there I thought my wages were too low so I went overseas. While overseas I thought my wages were too low so I simply started my own company. As a business owner I think my wages are too low so I started a second company. I am now in negotiations to purchase a 3rd company.

I have not forgotten where I came from. I always have been passionate about EMS but I am also a realist. Tens of thousands of medics sitting on their arses complaining about how unfair it is and how we deserve to be paid more is pointless. It achieves nothing. There is no value in how one feels...the value is in what can you give me that I cannot get from another 1000 people on any given day? It is when we lie to ourselves and over value ourselves...only we are too blind to see we are not as special as we think we are.

We do good work. We help people. But so do a ton of other professions in various ways. Our education for entry level is ridiculously low and easy. We actually have too many medics. Thin the ranks, make supply low but high quality...then see what the pay becomes from the demand. But to get there it is going to take a lot of measures most people are not willing to sign off on because for the majority it will mean not having a career from lack of qualification/ability. Additionally the IAFF will protest and lobby against any such measures as well.

In short (or very long so far), yes the wages being paid are absolutely fair for the work performed and education/skills required.


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## Angel (Mar 1, 2015)

So are you in the US or not? If you aren't I actually don't care about your feelings on the matter as it in no way affects you. 
What is not appropriate is for someone not even in the same COUNTRY saying what wage is and isn't appropriate for ME. 

We can't relate and will never agree, you are more out of touch than I previously thought so far those reasons I can't be bothered to listen (read) whatever else you have to say on the issue. 
But thanks anyway.


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## akflightmedic (Mar 1, 2015)

I am in the country as that is stated in my profile. Where I currently reside has no bearing on the conversation as the facts are still the facts.

Out of touch? Too funny...

What would qualify me to be "in touch"?

I own and operate three hospitals and a medevac service. I spent a solid 15 years on the ambulance or in the air before starting my company, taught 100s of CPR classes, lectured at two area colleges and trained 100s of fledgling paramedics in addition to precepting them when I was on duty. I have worked 3rd service, Private and Fire. I think I am fairly well rounded and more in touch to have this kind of discussion.

Please enlighten me...


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## Angel (Mar 1, 2015)

I'm seriously done arguing.  PM me if it means that much to you.


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## NomadicMedic (Mar 1, 2015)

You can't force open a closed mind.


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## akflightmedic (Mar 1, 2015)

Apparently.

And PM for what...?

I just like how my current location dictates whether or not I can comment on wages. I have not figured that one out yet.

And I am so out of touch...with everything I have going on, I still take time to visit EMS sites and contribute when and where possible. Unreachable...that is me!


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## RocketMedic (Mar 1, 2015)

I make a living wage for a fair schedule at a workplace I enjoy. The last service I graced with my presence failed to provide what I wanted, so I left.


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## Tigger (Mar 1, 2015)

akflightmedic said:


> It is not a personal valuation, it is a professional one. And no matter which way I express it you seem to miss the point and cannot examine this objectively. You asked how I felt and I replied as everyone's answer will always be the same. However, when you ask what we deserve...that is an entirely different story.
> 
> As for myself, I have a very interesting story and will one day put the book out. I have been a paramedic since 1993 and I still maintain the license. I still think and speak like a paramedic. However, I was never satisfied with where I was so I did something about it.
> 
> ...


I appreciate the entire post, but the bolded part is key. 

The side that thinks that EMS isn't making enough money does nothing to get them to that point, unless you consider whining to be action. Complaining about how other careers make more money with ostensibly less risk is not helping. It's just annoying. Talking about how it's not worth getting a degree when employers don't require it just makes the collective community sound like a bunch fools. How do you think nursing got to the point where they are today? Or a whole multitude of other professions for that matter...

Meanwhile, those that believe EMS makes an appropriate amount of money given the state of the industry can defend their argument with logic and reason. Coincidentally, these people are often EMS leaders. Coincidence? Recently my boss (who is an incredible leader) and I had a conversation where he flatly told me that my job is comparable to that of a UPS driver so long as my partner is a paramedic driver. In fact, a UPS driver may be better qualified to do my own job. This is why I make 11 dollars an hour. He is absolutely correct. I don't plan to be an EMT for much longer.

But more importantly, I don't plan to be a line paramedic forever either. So many people in EMS are just there. They are not motivated to move themselves forward professionally, and they complain that they aren't paid enough.


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## Angel (Mar 1, 2015)

So you're at the new job now? I'm kinda curious where it is...if you found your unicorn (or close to it), that place must be impressive

ETA even ups driving make ~35 and hour so....?
And I suppose maybe you're talking about lazy EMTs, but that's not me, I earned every single of the 4 degrees soon to be 5 I have so I know my worth, I know my value and yes should be paid more. I don't know what self respecting ems professional thinks of the profession they chose with such negativity but for the sake of the rest of us, please leave, do something else. If this isn't it, that's fine, but if you aren't going to make it better personally or professionally then why are you wasting your time? Why are you dragging the rest of us down with you? 

Makes no sense to me, but every profession has its low bunch.


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## SandpitMedic (Mar 1, 2015)

Ya know... Between this thread and a few others, and with those unreasonably crabby and irrational posts... I'd almost think it someone's time of the month.

Just saying.

Never noticed such sensitivity before.


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## triemal04 (Mar 1, 2015)

I'd just like to point out that the opinions expressed in this thread...ALL OF THEM...or highly indicative of how and why EMS is in the state that it's in today.  

Anyone who wants to point a finger had better be ready to accurately and objectively defend their position...and the defense seems to be pretty onesided at this point...


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## Angel (Mar 1, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> Ya know... Between this thread and a few others, and with those unreasonably crabby and irrational posts... I'd almost think it someone's time of the month.
> 
> Just saying.
> 
> Never noticed such sensitivity before.



Why is that the "go to" for men when describing a female who isn't taking anyone's sh*t? 
Yea I'm good, I just don't understand why so many people have their heads up their a**es and am calling them out for it. 
When people do nothing but repeat the same song with different music it is annoying  and that's usually when I stop because there's no possibility in having a meaningful conversation at that point. So sorry, not PMSing, just fed up with the ignorance.


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## triemal04 (Mar 1, 2015)

Angel said:


> When people do nothing but repeat the same song with different music it is annoying  and that's usually when I stop because there's no possibility in having a meaningful conversation at that point. So sorry, not PMSing, just fed up with the ignorance.


Yep...just remember, that cuts both ways.


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## akflightmedic (Mar 1, 2015)

Do you not see the hypocrisy in your posts versus what everyone else has said about this issue?


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## Angel (Mar 1, 2015)

triemal04 said:


> Yep...just remember, that cuts both ways.



Yep, gonna have a beer when I get off. 
Cheers


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## triemal04 (Mar 1, 2015)

Angel said:


> Yep, gonna have a beer when I get off.
> Cheers


Was that your way of saying that you're just venting?

Cause that's fine...very therapeutic in fact; I'm a big fan, and in my oh so humble opinion, half the reason for places like this to exist...but I digress. 

But venting or being serious, bear in mind that the things that have been said in opposition to your statements are, like it or not, VALID AND REAL.  If you (general you) or anyone else doesn't like that, you need to come up with real and legitimate reasons why those things are not valid.

And plays on emotion or on "how things should be" do not cut it.


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## Tigger (Mar 1, 2015)

Angel said:


> ETA even ups driving make ~35 and hour so....?
> And I suppose maybe you're talking about lazy EMTs, but that's not me, I earned every single of the 4 degrees soon to be 5 I have so I know my worth, I know my value and yes should be paid more. I don't know what self respecting ems professional thinks of the profession they chose with such negativity but for the sake of the rest of us, please leave, do something else. If this isn't it, that's fine, but if you aren't going to make it better personally or professionally then why are you wasting your time? Why are you dragging the rest of us down with you?
> 
> Makes no sense to me, but every profession has its low bunch.



Not here they don't, the guy I relieved today headed out to work FedEx and he sure isn't making that much. He is also working much harder than I am today. 

You have yet to say why you deserve to be paid more money. "I know my value." Based on what? That's not how the world works. I'm a better EMT than most. I can do other things to help the agency like write grants and things like that. I don't make anymore money for that because if I left, it would not be a huge detriment to my employer. 

Saying "I have degrees" is not a reason to be paid more. I don't know what your degrees are, but just possessing them does not entitle you to anything. I have a BA from a top 50 liberal arts college that I paid out the *** to get. That does not mean I deserve anymore money than an EMT that provides the same level of service and usefulness to the service that I do. 

I'm not going anywhere. My end goal is to be a successful EMS leader. I don't want to have to push to make changes to improve a service, I want to implement them. You can do that when you're the boss. I am committed to making EMS a profession and diversifying its services. I am not being negative, and I cannot stand when someone makes that comment as if it somehow strengthens their argument. You don't change things by being a cheerleader, and you don't change things by complaining.


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## MonkeyArrow (Mar 1, 2015)

@akflightmedic I think the answer to seeing the hypocrisy is a resounding no. Judging by the past few likes Angel has give out, to DEMedic's comment about opening a closed mind and to SandPitMedics, coupled with the beer response, I'm fairly convinced he/she does not want to have an educated discussion, and has retreated to trolling. (Where's the "don't feed the trolls" smiley mods???)


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## SandpitMedic (Mar 1, 2015)

She's just having a bad day.

Life goes on away from the EMTlife screen.


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## looker (Mar 1, 2015)

Tigger said:


> I appreciate the entire post, but the bolded part is key.
> 
> The side that thinks that EMS isn't making enough money does nothing to get them to that point, unless you consider whining to be action. Complaining about how other careers make more money with ostensibly less risk is not helping. It's just annoying. Talking abomedicine ut how it's not worth getting a degree when employers don't require it just makes the collective community sound like a bunch fools. How do you think nursing got to the point where they are today? Or a whole multitude of other professions for that matter...
> 
> ...


Yes nursing go to the point that degree is needed because medicine improved dramatically and their skills became more and more. Without dramatic increase in technology, that is not likely to happen to EMS that it will takes years of education to be able to work on ambulance. I never say never but i am not seeing that happening in the near future.


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## Tigger (Mar 2, 2015)

We already have a skillset that is deserving of a degree. I realize that's not motivation for most providers (see: "we've always done it this way"), but if EMS wants a seat at the adults table, a four year degree is needed.


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## gonefishing (Mar 2, 2015)

Tigger said:


> We already have a skillset that is deserving of a degree. I realize that's not motivation for most providers (see: "we've always done it this way"), but if EMS wants a seat at the adults table, a four year degree is needed.


For medics yes, emt atleast a 2 year.


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## Angel (Mar 2, 2015)

Angel said:


> unions dying?! no they arent, the california nurses union is constantly striking against something, and CA has the highest paid nurses (that I know of)
> and associates means people have to be able to pass basic math and english before licensing, no more of that functional illiteracy crap.
> Personally id like to do away with all EMTs and make it AEMT level with an associates, and Paramedics more like CCT medics with a BS requirement.
> Hopefully it happens before I die


----------



## SandpitMedic (Mar 2, 2015)

Paramedic core curriculum should be at the baseline of a current CCT medic with an AAS/AS PREREQ (see below.) In that world we would make more and have expanded scopes. It should have the option of a 4 year degree as it does now. What is the difference between an ASN & a BSN? Mostly, it is the ability to move up the management chain or to an advanced specialty. There isn't much difference in pay/skill. We should play ball with that... ASP AND BSP. Associate of Science Paramedic and Bachelor of Science Paramedic.

EMT basics should be what they are now, a certificate program, but not allowed in the 911 system. They should do IFT and events only. That is how Las Vegas runs. It is intermediate/advanced & medic or dual medic. EMT advanced should be a two year AAS/AS with EMT cert prereq.
Military medics should be granted NREMT AND easily able to transition to Advanced EMT upon discharge BUT also have to complete the general Ed and a transition course, GI Bill in hand.

With just those simple steps it would immensely thin the herd. Supply goes down, education goes up, standing in the medical community goes up, wages increase, and @looker goes out of business... It's a win, win, win all the way around.

THIS would require a total overhaul of the system. Implementation would take 3-4 years. Those already certified would have that time to go get their general Ed and AAS/AS and CCT. Of course, student tax credits should apply.

Who makes that call? The only way to do this would be to have te folks who would make the most money off of it lobby for such change. $ is a motivator, desire is not. NREMT, NAEMT, Paramedic schools/colleges, health districts. AND US.. Folks who stand to gain from such a change. Be mindful of the lazy and the burnt, for they have no desire to do more work. Be wary of the fire guys who ONLY do this to go to fire, for they want to do the least in EMS to get to their endgame of the FD. We wouldn't have every schmuck becoming a medic for that purpose anymore, and maybe these departments would go ILS.

Instead of *****ing about the economics, let's discuss how to start this change.... Or other ideas on a systemic scale (not an individual "I'm going to college level") Who do we contact first?

Ready? Set? GO!


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## Angel (Mar 2, 2015)

@SandpitMedic, I wish I knew but am open for ideas


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## RocketMedic (Mar 2, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> Paramedic core curriculum should be at the baseline of a current CCT medic with an AAS/AS PREREQ (see below.) In that world we would make more and have expanded scopes. It should have the option of a 4 year degree as it does now. What is the difference between an ASN & a BSN? Mostly, it is the ability to move up the management chain or to an advanced specialty. There isn't much difference in pay/skill. We should play ball with that... ASP AND BSP. Associate of Science Paramedic and Bachelor of Science Paramedic.
> 
> EMT basics should be what they are now, a certificate program, but not allowed in the 911 system. They should do IFT and events only. That is how Las Vegas runs. It is intermediate/advanced & medic or dual medic. EMT advanced should be a two year AAS/AS with EMT cert prereq.
> Military medics should be granted NREMT AND easily able to transition to Advanced EMT upon discharge BUT also have to complete the general Ed and a transition course, GI Bill in hand.
> ...



Why?

We have yet to even prove our value as ALS providers in the current model. What changes do you propose we make to actual operations? Everyone's a CCP with an RN-level scope of the body, knows sort-of how to run a ventilator and how to do stuff....what really changes? Are we suddenly going to get treat-and-release powers, scripts and a sweet "auxiliary doctor" shirt?

Your ideas have merit, but need justification. Why?

Amateurs discuss tactics. Novices strategy. Experts discuss logistics. 

Also, if you seek to destroy or divorce IFT from 911, you're crippling the "school" debate instantly. 911 is easy and can literally be done to an acceptable standard with a high-school education and a first-aid course and a few inservice days. Good medical care is a different squirrel and can be found anywhere.


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## SandpitMedic (Mar 2, 2015)

Change starts with an idea. There is nothing more powerful than an idea.

Why? Because it is a logical place to start. My apologies for not clarifying... Yes divorce BLS/gurney van/psych/ILS/wheelchair IFT transfers from the 911 system. ALS/CCT IFT is a logistically sound skill and service for these providers to keep up with and are not as taxing or as common as the  aforementioned group.  

EMS is in its current state because it is relatively new, and the ******* step child of the fire service. We need to change and become our own. 

I don't want to hear why you think it shouldn't be done any more than you don't want to hear why we SHOULD get a raise. I want to talk solutions and ideas... Progress.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 2, 2015)

911 isn't profitable, or even sustainable in any context. It's those low-acuity (paid) tasks that pay the bills. Not defending running them, but a systematic lockout of those would literally strangle the 911 agencies that are not heavily subsidized by their communities


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## NomadicMedic (Mar 2, 2015)

Why isn't 911 supported by tax dollars/levy, the same way fire, police and city services are?

Oh wait, in third service communities, they are. Sussex County DE has an ALS service that costs around 13 million dollars a year, and doesn't bill.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 2, 2015)

I think the answer is a lack of public interest


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## NomadicMedic (Mar 2, 2015)

RocketMedic said:


> I think the answer is a lack of public interest



Then you get what you deserve.


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## SandpitMedic (Mar 2, 2015)

Well the public will never care. Until they have the unfortunate opportunity to meet us.

That's what we're talking about here. Making this thing it's own. Changing it.


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## NomadicMedic (Mar 2, 2015)

None of this is new. 

Ever hear of EMS 2.0?

http://www.ambulancedriverfiles.com/ems-2-0/


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## SandpitMedic (Mar 2, 2015)

Great. I'm not seeking claim as the first one to think of it. Just trying to collectively do it.


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## DrParasite (Mar 2, 2015)

Tigger said:


> How do you think nursing got to the point where they are today? Or a whole multitude of other professions for that matter...


well, to start off with, many nurses are unionized.  this often helps lead to higher wages.  The other way, in it's most simplest terms, is that many nurses refuse to work for peanuts.  Meaning, if you are willing to work for 10/hr, why should an employer pay you any more? That is where the union comes into play; the staff as a whole (by way of the union) agree as a collective unit not to accept or work for a wage lower than they feel is appropriate.  And then as a whole, they negotiate with management for better benefits



DEmedic said:


> Why isn't 911 supported by tax dollars/levy, the same way fire, police and city services are?
> 
> Oh wait, in third service communities, they are. Sussex County DE has an ALS service that costs around 13 million dollars a year, and doesn't bill.


is that entirely true?  A quick look about Sussex County DE's ALS system reveals that it is a flycar system; so in addition to the 8 non-transport units, you have 21 BLS ambulance services also serving the population.  what is the cost to fund and operate the 21 BLS agencies?  Where does that money come from?

But I do agree, 911 should be supported 100% by tax dollars.

You want to know how to raise paramedic wages?  More paramedics need to learn about business, and stop focusing on finding the easiest and quickest way to get a paramedic cert.  Supply and demand is how you changes wages.  If your agency has 20 paramedic openings, and no new applicants will accept the rate being offered, management will need to change something to convince employees to accept the job (such as raising wages).

More managers need to get masters degrees in business and public administration, and be able to show a positive return on their tax dollars investment.  The days of the head of the agency only having a HS diploma are over; even a bachelors degree is insufficient for a large EMS agency.  Get a masters, and learn how to actually run a successful business, not just do things like we have always done them.

Oh, and take steps to better yourself; if your an EMT, go to medic school.  if your a medic, go to CCEMTP school, or flight medic cert.  Find something that will make you more valuable than every other provider, and show a way it will benefit you in the job, and why your employer should compensate you for your increased education.  Sitting on your *** *****ing about things never solved anything


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## looker (Mar 3, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> Paramedic core curriculum should be at the baseline of a current CCT medic with an AAS/AS PREREQ (see below.) In that world we would make more and have expanded scopes. It should have the option of a 4 year degree as it does now. What is the difference between an ASN & a BSN? Mostly, it is the ability to move up the management chain or to an advanced specialty. There isn't much difference in pay/skill. We should play ball with that... ASP AND BSP. Associate of Science Paramedic and Bachelor of Science Paramedic.
> 
> EMT basics should be what they are now, a certificate program, but not allowed in the 911 system. They should do IFT and events only. That is how Las Vegas runs. It is intermediate/advanced & medic or dual medic. EMT advanced should be a two year AAS/AS with EMT cert prereq.
> Military medics should be granted NREMT AND easily able to transition to Advanced EMT upon discharge BUT also have to complete the general Ed and a transition course, GI Bill in hand.
> ...


Do you realize that if you separate 911 from IFT, no one going to do 911. In most cases 911 is breakeven or even a loss . IFT is where the money is and you have to follow the money to stay in business.


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## Mufasa556 (Mar 3, 2015)

looker said:


> Do you realize that if you separate 911 from IFT, no one going to do 911. In most cases 911 is breakeven or even a loss . IFT is where the money is and you have to follow the money to stay in business.



From employees to management, I've always heard this. "There's no money in 911. The real bread and butter is IFT." Then why do all the mad money making IFT companies have the worst most blown out equipment and the barely breaking even 911 companies have the better equipment? 

Vegas has separated 911 from IFT and it seems to work just fine. As a basic If you want to work a 911 car in Vegas, you need to do your time on a event shift or IFT car before you get certified as an EMT-Intermediate and get assigned to shifts in the 911 system.


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## PotatoMedic (Mar 3, 2015)

Mufasa556 said:


> From employees to management, I've always heard this. "There's no money in 911. The real bread and butter is IFT." Then why do all the mad money making IFT companies have the worst most blown out equipment and the barely breaking even 911 companies have the better equipment?
> 
> Vegas has separated 911 from IFT and it seems to work just fine. As a basic If you want to work a 911 car in Vegas, you need to do your time on a event shift or IFT car before you get certified as an EMT-Intermediate and get assigned to shifts in the 911 system.


Contract mandates can require newer equipment.  And usually the company that has the 911 contract has the profitable hospital and IFT contracts.  So the money hole that 911 is, is worth it for the profitability the IFT contracts are.


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## akflightmedic (Mar 3, 2015)

Mufasa556 said:


> Then why do all the mad money making IFT companies have the worst most blown out equipment and the barely breaking even 911 companies have the better equipment?



Ummm, this would be the part where the money making (PROFIT) takes place...for profit means you watch how every dollar is spent and you do not replace until absolutely necessary and if it is unessential you do not buy it to start with. 911/Govt provided/subsidized means you are either contractually obligated to have certain equipment with certain dates OR you are spending everyone else's money so it is really no big deal how much of the budget you have blown.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 3, 2015)

The old, wrecked equipment is hardly exclusive to ift.


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## TransportJockey (Mar 3, 2015)

RocketMedic said:


> The old, wrecked equipment is hardly exclusive to ift.


Exactly. I worked for a little 911 company in central NM that had some of the oldest and barely working equipment I've ever seen. By comparison, my equipment at AMR (except for our initial trucks which came out of the DRT fleet) was all in good working order and we even had a few things that no one in the area used.


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## Christopher (Mar 3, 2015)

(disclaimer: president of non-profit department)

We pay better than the minimums and try to be above-average for our area, for all job functions. Why? Two simple reasons:

1. Better employees.
2. Better retention rates.

Both decrease the cost of doing business. One area agency led the charge to increase paramedic pay which has made it much harder for us to meet objectives #1 and #2 above. So we're doing a pay study at the moment and will probably see big increases for paramedics and COLA bumps for non-paramedics.

As for "EMT" as a career. Sure, make it a career. But with any career there will be a salary band, and in all likelihood the band will be sized based on the needs of the corporation. Our FF/EMT's have the narrowest band and once topped out would only receive COLA increases. Why? At their level their value-add to the corporation isn't enough to justify a wider band; and advancement in the organization is typically coupled with an increase in value-add. Nothing wrong with maxing out your band, nothing wrong with riding the same job for 20-30 years. There is also nothing wrong with your corporation topping out your pay.

Lastly, as an aside which addresses some earlier comments about how bad the "gubmint" does things...working for a Fortune 5 company I can assure you private businesses do it no better, and most often worse. But keep on believing private companies and the "free market" solve all problems. (Because we don't have a true free market and obviously it is way more complicated than "private good, public bad; MURIKA")


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## Tigger (Mar 3, 2015)

DrParasite said:


> well, to start off with, many nurses are unionized.  this often helps lead to higher wages.  The other way, in it's most simplest terms, is that many nurses refuse to work for peanuts.  Meaning, if you are willing to work for 10/hr, why should an employer pay you any more? That is where the union comes into play; the staff as a whole (by way of the union) agree as a collective unit not to accept or work for a wage lower than they feel is appropriate.  And then as a whole, they negotiate with management for better benefits


No doubt their unions have helped with their compensations. But nursing's increase in education has allowed them to become a player in many aspects of healthcare, which allows them more opportunities to make that money.


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## Carlos Danger (Mar 3, 2015)

Tigger said:


> No doubt their unions have helped with their compensations. But nursing's increase in education has allowed them to become a player in many aspects of healthcare, which allows them more opportunities to make that money.



Only something about 20% or less of nurses belong to unions, and outside of a few regions (Ca, NY, etc) nursing unions are actually pretty uncommon. So it's probably safe to say that overall, the unions have little to do with nursing compensation.


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## Carlos Danger (Mar 3, 2015)

Christopher said:


> Lastly, as an aside which addresses some earlier comments about how bad the "gubmint" does things...working for a Fortune 5 company I can assure you private businesses do it no better, and most often worse. *But keep on believing private companies and the "free market" solve all problems*. (Because we don't have a true free market and obviously it is way more complicated than "private good, public bad; MURIKA")



The point isn't that a free market is "perfect" (I've never heard anyone make that claim, actually); the point is that as an economic system, it is far better than any alternative. Many of the problems that people like to point to as evidence of failure of the free market can actually be traced directly to government influence and corporatism.


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## irishboxer384 (Mar 3, 2015)

Wow this thread really took off. With the passion on here then we should form our own national company, members here in each state....

On a more realistic note, arguably the most qualified people to comment on this matter are those who own/have owned their own medical company...or even ANY company at all. Running a business is a huge ordeal- I spent 2 years putting together my own business plan for my own 'thang', and for personal reasons have yet to apply everything that is prepared and ready to roll. With that being said... my minuscule insight into the business world...it is much more complex than a simple- pay the people more because it's the right thing to do.


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## cruiseforever (Mar 5, 2015)

Remi said:


> Only something about 20% or less of nurses belong to unions, and outside of a few regions (Ca, NY, etc) nursing unions are actually pretty uncommon. So it's probably safe to say that overall, the unions have little to do with nursing compensation.


 

I would disagree about unions not helping to increase wages.  Here in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area there is a very strong nurse's union.  When ever they go on strike or threaten to.  They get an increase.  That increase radiates out into the non-union hospitals as they increase the nurse's pay to keep staff.

I see the same thing here as a paramedic.   The services with unions get an increase.  The non-union ones get an increase, but it may not be as large.


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## Carlos Danger (Mar 5, 2015)

cruiseforever said:


> I would disagree about unions not helping to increase wages.  Here in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area there is a very strong nurse's union.  When ever they go on strike or threaten to.  They get an increase.  That increase radiates out into the non-union hospitals as they increase the nurse's pay to keep staff.



Sure, but that effect is very localized.

In most of the country, nursing unions don't exist at all or involve a very small number of nurses.

My point was that unions have little impact on nursing wages OVERALL.

For example, when the unions in Minneapolis/ St. Paul or DC threaten to strike, it has zero impact on the nurses here in the Carolinas, where nursing unions basically don't exist.


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## DrParasite (Mar 5, 2015)

Remi said:


> Sure, but that effect is very localized.
> 
> In most of the country, nursing unions don't exist at all or involve a very small number of nurses.
> 
> ...


Hmm. nursing unions are very strong in Mass, NJ,NY, DC, VA, and California..... and they get paid well....

Thinking of it another way, firefighters are not unionized in the Carolinas..... As a result, in SC, firefighters have some of the lowest wages for full time departments in the US.  wages aren't as bad in NC for firefighters, but you aren't going to make as much money as you will in, say, Virginia.  There are no union for EMS either, but is some places EMS does make more than firefighting.

NC and SC don't have unions, period.  as a result, wages, especially in public safety are lower than in other parts of the country.  Fire and PD also have higher turnover in the carolina's than in the NE (where I am from); and by turnover, I mean people leaving for other departments, not leaving for other career paths.


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## Carlos Danger (Mar 5, 2015)

DrParasite said:


> Hmm. nursing unions are very strong in Mass, NJ,NY, DC, VA, and California..... and they get paid well....
> 
> Thinking of it another way, firefighters are not unionized in the Carolinas..... As a result, in SC, firefighters have some of the lowest wages for full time departments in the US.  wages aren't as bad in NC for firefighters, but you aren't going to make as much money as you will in, say, Virginia.  There are no union for EMS either, but is some places EMS does make more than firefighting.
> 
> NC and SC don't have unions, period.  as a result, wages, especially in public safety are lower than in other parts of the country.  Fire and PD also have higher turnover in the carolina's than in the NE (where I am from); and by turnover, I mean people leaving for other departments, not leaving for other career paths.



Nurses get paid more in those areas because those are the most expensive places to live in the US, not necessarily just because of the strength of the unions. I got paid pretty well in NC as a flight nurse, without having to play the socialist union game.

My point had nothing to do with whether unions increase wages for those that belong to them, though.

My point was simply that, with only about 18% of RN's being unionized across the US (that's straight from the AFL-CIO themselves), and with nursing unions tending to be concentrated in specific geographic areas, they simply don't impact the vast majority of RN's in this country.


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## gonefishing (Mar 5, 2015)

You have to remember about right to work states as well which have the highest poverty in the states.


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## cruiseforever (Mar 5, 2015)

Remi said:


> Sure, but that effect is very localized.
> 
> In most of the country, nursing unions don't exist at all or involve a very small number of nurses.
> 
> ...



That would explain the high number of nurses from the east coast that came here to work during the last strike.


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## Carlos Danger (Mar 5, 2015)

cruiseforever said:


> That would explain the high number of nurses from the east coast that came here to work during the last strike.



Travel nurses.


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## dank (Mar 10, 2015)

DesertEMT66 said:


> Boy scouts is pretty much first aid. It's usually done with a merit badge or 2 that takes maybe 8-12 hours.
> 
> EMT is like an advanced version of first aid in many places in the US. In my area of SoCal there aren't many meds at all that an EMT can give aside from oxygen and maybe some activated charcoal  (not in the BLS level here). There are very few meds we are able to assist patients with (epi pens, MDIs, and nitro are about the only ones). You can assist patients with epi pens at a first aid level (at least when I took the merit badge course).
> 
> ...


 Where I work we carry epi pens so we can give them if needed, not assist someone in using one.


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## SandpitMedic (Mar 16, 2015)

There's a posting for AMR OKC with a $3500 relocation bonus. 

Meanwhile San Berdo county has a posting for _Paramedic_ AO for 11.17/hr 

LOLZ

It's all about where you go.


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## RocketMedic (Mar 16, 2015)

There's a reason for that relocation bonus....EMSA is not in great straits.


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## RefriedEMT (Mar 16, 2015)

LibertyAmbulance said:


> Hello All,
> 
> I am writing to inform you that Liberty Ambulance is now offering $13.00 per hour for new hire EMT's. We are offering a $500 sign on bonus as well. We have full-time employment opportunities in Downey, Santa Ana, North Hollywood and the South Bay. Check us out and apply at www.libertyambulance.com



I'm gona have to ask you to move your company to Vancouver, Washington.


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## SandpitMedic (Mar 16, 2015)

What about paramedics...


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## gonefishing (Mar 16, 2015)

RefriedEMT said:


> I'm gona have to ask you to move your company to Vancouver, Washington.


LMAO that company is not worth it.  You would be better off eating sawdust and pooping 2x4's.


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## PotatoMedic (Mar 16, 2015)

gonefishing said:


> LMAO that company is not worth it.  You would be better off eating sawdust and pooping 2x4's.


That "wood" hurt...


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## NomadicMedic (Mar 16, 2015)

FireWA1 said:


> That "wood" hurt...



I "saw" what you did there.


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## akflightmedic (Mar 16, 2015)

You guys "cut" me up.


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## FoleyArtist (Mar 17, 2015)

gonefishing said:


> LMAO that company is not worth it.  You would be better off eating sawdust and pooping 2x4's.



no no.... let vancouver, washington have em


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## RefriedEMT (Mar 17, 2015)

gonefishing said:


> LMAO that company is not worth it.  You would be better off eating sawdust and pooping 2x4's.



Either way we need some ambulance companies to help cut back on the stranglehold AMR has on my town....its ridiculous. They swallowed all the companies here a few years back and now they are all that is here except one ambulance company in Yacolt, Washington- North Country EMS. I should not have to always consider and reconsider again working in Oregon just because they are all that is here EXCEPT a couple of volunteer positions that pop up every once and a while (~4-5) a year. If Oregon would fix their ****hole of a freeway since all the traffic problems in this area of Portland and Vancouver stem from their bottlenecks in their freeways 90% of the time. If they fixed that then id consider with more intent working in the dumpsterfire that is Portland, until then its more economical to live in Vancouver and work in Longview/Kelso than anywhere in Oregon. So some damn companies need to get their asses out here to kick AMR in the nuts so that EMTs can have more real opportunity rather than be considered for the only private ambulance company in the area. Oh yea did I say *#$% Oregon yet?


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## gotbeerz001 (Mar 17, 2015)

RefriedEMT said:


> Either way we need some ambulance companies to help cut back on the stranglehold AMR has on my town....its ridiculous. They swallowed all the companies here a few years back and now they are all that is here except one ambulance company in Yacolt, Washington- North Country EMS. I should not have to always consider and reconsider again working in Oregon just because they are all that is here EXCEPT a couple of volunteer positions that pop up every once and a while (~4-5) a year. If Oregon would fix their ****hole of a freeway since all the traffic problems in this area of Portland and Vancouver stem from their bottlenecks in their freeways 90% of the time. If they fixed that then id consider with more intent working in the dumpsterfire that is Portland, until then its more economical to live in Vancouver and work in Longview/Kelso than anywhere in Oregon. So some damn companies need to get their asses out here to kick AMR in the nuts so that EMTs can have more real opportunity rather than be considered for the only private ambulance company in the area. Oh yea did I say *#$% Oregon yet?


There is a lot of entitlement here. 

Companies want large service contracts. 
Municipalities want one point of contact. 

At no time does anyone feel sorry for the plight of the worker who chooses to stand in a crowd of thousands trying to fill a handful of positions. 

The sooner you realize no one gives a **** about you other than you and your mom, the sooner you will figure out what to do next. 

In short, you need a better plan.
Waiting around for other people to "get off their asses" may not cut it. 

*respectfully*


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## RefriedEMT (Mar 17, 2015)

That's exactly why I am going to Longview/Kelso, I am not waiting because I doubt anything will happen the way I want here but as I said if Oregon would fix their ****hole of a freeway I would not mind working there. This is not your ******** entitlement, this is simply a states lack of giving a ****. Tired of so many people assuming that everyone who argues for something feels they are entitled to what they are arguing for....**** that.


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## gotbeerz001 (Mar 17, 2015)

RefriedEMT said:


> That's exactly why I am going to Longview/Kelso, I am not waiting because I doubt anything will happen the way I want here but as I said if Oregon would fix their ****hole of a freeway I would not mind working there. This is not your ******** entitlement, this is simply a states lack of giving a ****. Tired of so many people assuming that everyone who argues for something feels they are entitled to what they are arguing for....**** that.


I get tired of people using the phrase "I am not willing to..." and then trying to play the victim. The fact that "you are not willing" to do anything reflects the presence of choice. Obviously you have made your choice. No sympathy for having a bad plan. 

Figure out what kind of life you want. 
Figure out how much money is required to live that way. 
Find a job that pays that wage.
Get the skills required to get that job. 
Be happy. 

However, I find that complainers complain wherever they are. Not necessarily saying that's you, but you need to stop relying on others to reach your goals. The playing field is not level so you need to adapt.


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## Angel (Mar 17, 2015)

thats the sad harsh truth shirtz...i have a few friends i need to send your post to!


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## Tigger (Mar 17, 2015)

RefriedEMT said:


> That's exactly why I am going to Longview/Kelso, I am not waiting because I doubt anything will happen the way I want here but as I said if Oregon would fix their ****hole of a freeway I would not mind working there. This is not your ******** entitlement, this is simply a states lack of giving a ****. Tired of so many people assuming that everyone who argues for something feels they are entitled to what they are arguing for....**** that.



You aren't doing yourself any favors if this how you present your argument. 

"If X would just happen, I would be doing Y," is not how you get ahead, or anywhere for that matter. Figure out what you can change and do that. Stop waiting for outside factors to direct your life, you'll just be waiting forever.

Also some might say that AMR having a dominating presence can be good for its employees. Where I am at I know AMR is not likely to go anywhere, so my part time job will always be around.


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## triemal04 (Mar 17, 2015)

RefriedEMT said:


> If they fixed that then id consider with more intent working in the dumpsterfire that is Portland, until then its more economical to live in Vancouver and work in Longview/Kelso than anywhere in Oregon.


Gee, if you didn't have such a wonderful attitude I might mention that in both Portland, and the Portland Metro Area the only private ambulance companies are MetroWest, AMR and...<drumroll please>...AMR.

Knock yourself out kiddo.


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## RefriedEMT (Mar 17, 2015)

triemal04 said:


> Gee, if you didn't have such a wonderful attitude I might mention that in both Portland, and the Portland Metro Area the only private ambulance companies are MetroWest, AMR and...<drumroll please>...AMR.
> 
> Knock yourself out kiddo.



Yea I know who works there.....the difference is all the jobs are there.

Also Tigger I am not waiting for outside factors, these are simple statements about what I would LIKE to happen not what I am WAITING for....cuz I dont expect anything to fall perfectly into place, I have to get it myself which I know yet there is always the chance some of these ridiculous problems could be fixed EVENTUALLY by someone other than me....I will not improve the world when no one else gives a damn to try....go ahead an analyze that now....im sure will have a few more "entitlement posts"....


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## Tiger09 (Jul 28, 2015)

SandpitMedic said:


> I see business owners against employees heating up in this thread.
> 
> There are aspects to both I agree with. Here are a few points I'd like to make.
> 
> ...


Super late but this is a damn good post


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## dank (Jul 29, 2015)

MMiz said:


> I saw in the news today that Walmart is raising the wage of many of it's entry level workers to an average of $10 an hour.
> 
> This will mean most part time Walmart workers may more than the average EMT-Basic.
> 
> What do you think?


 I get paid $15/hour for my part-time EMT job.


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