# MA State Police Ambulance



## milhouse (Jan 25, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZgdwuxH1Ow&NR=1

ok i was looking at youtube and i came across that video now it was my understand that police is suppose to be separate from EMS because there would be too many issues that would clash like responding to a call (pick one lol) and walking in the front door you see pot plants on the right. 

now we cant call the police for that reason but we can call because the scene is "unsafe" 

so how is it that they are able to have there own ambulance. is this gonna be something that is only gonna support other LEO's ? 

fill me in on this guys


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## Ridryder911 (Jan 25, 2008)

Okay, from I deciphered from your post is that EMS cannot be through EMS? 

There are many EMS agencies that are based through Police Departments similar to Fire Based EMS . I used to work for a Police EMS unit that provided all rescue and extrication as well as Haz-Mat instead of Fire Department, as well we were commisioned officers too. 



R/r 911


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## EMTMandy (Jan 25, 2008)

A county close to mine had a program where some of the LEO'S had cross training as medics.  They usually had two on call at a time. Unfortunately, it was shut down mid last year <_<


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## KEVD18 (Jan 25, 2008)

its the ambulance for the state police academy. also used for the state tactical team.

they did that truck up without the appropriate waivers from oems and they threw a fit but really couldnt do anything becuase it belongs to big blue


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## MA State EMT-B (Jan 25, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> its the ambulance for the state police academy. also used for the state tactical team.
> 
> they did that truck up without the appropriate waivers from oems and they threw a fit but really couldnt do anything becuase it belongs to big blue



Thats right! they have 2 of them one in Famingham and one in Springfield, they use it for academy, tactical, SWAT, and special events with out-of-state elected officials involved. They are staffed with 2 armed tactical paramedics.

my big sis is a statie


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## Arkymedic (Jan 25, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> Okay, from I deciphered from your post is that EMS cannot be through EMS?
> 
> There are many EMS agencies that are based through Police Departments similar to Fire Based EMS . I used to work for a Police EMS unit that provided all rescue and extrication as well as Haz-Mat instead of Fire Department, as well we were commisioned officers too.
> 
> ...


 
I agree Rid that there are many police based EMS units especially throughout the south and midwest. There are several law enforcement organizations that run rescue and tech rescue throughout AR such as the Yell Co Mounted Patrol.


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## KEVD18 (Jan 26, 2008)

MA State EMT-B said:


> They are staffed with 2 armed tactical paramedics.



yeah i know one of them. not terribly thrilled about it, but i do know him.


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## medicdan (Jan 26, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> its the ambulance for the state police academy. also used for the state tactical team.
> 
> they did that truck up without the appropriate waivers from oems and they threw a fit but really couldnt do anything becuase it belongs to big blue



Do you know anything specifically about what they carry that OEMS didnt like? Any fun toys? 
Is it that they just want their own taking care of eachther at the academy or that they dont trust street EMS...? For high profile events do they think there are security risks with street EMS? Are the cop/medics armed? Are they trained for TEMS? 
Do we know where the video was shot? Where were these busses being shown off?


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## JPINFV (Jan 26, 2008)

milhouse said:


> now it was my understand that police is suppose to be separate from EMS because there would be too many issues that would clash like responding to a call (pick one lol) and walking in the front door you see pot plants on the right.



Couldn't the same be said for fire departments that do inspections also? Here's the bill for the call and a ticket for a fire safety violation.


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## KEVD18 (Jan 26, 2008)

there were a couple of things:

1) in ma, an ambulance can be one of two base colors: white and red. the stripe can be any color you want but the base has to be white or red and for it to be red, you need a waiver. they issued a waiver for msp to paint it blue, but they did it AFTER THE FACT and were essentially forced to.

2) essentially the same complaint, just change paint to lights. the front facing lights on an ambulance in ma are supposed to be red/clear. as the law is written, only fd ambulances are allowed one blue light in the opposite direction of normal travel(i.e. the back). this has been excepted to include all apparatus involved in 911 operations. now there are a few pd run ambulances in ma(mattapoisett comes to mind) but they have a waiver to run a blue light ambulance. while it may just be a formality, from what i understand, msp didnt even bother. they just did it. the old "its easier to get forgivness than permission" angle.

3) armed medics. thats a sensitive topic. while not strictly against the rules, oems isnt thrilled with the idea. they, along with a substantial portion of the community, are of the opinion that you are either a medic or a shooter but not both.

the main thing that pissed oems off was the blatant disregard for procedure. msp has had a service license for ever becuase of the academy. for quite some time, the "ambulance" was an old suburban, which the state duly came out and "inspected" every year and they never really used. i think they had one other bu somewhere that either didnt run or was such a piece they didnt use it. i cant remember. anyway, big blue up and decides one day to buy the new trucks, buys em, stocks em, throws the tags on em and rolls em out the door. never mentioned anything to oems. so when they find out, they're livid. but its msp. so they cleaned it up, made the paperwork official and everybody moved on.

are they trained for tems? no. the massachusetts state police, one of the nations oldest and proudest law enforcement agencies isnt using properly trained personell... ok sorry. off my soapbox. yeah, they are all card carrying tems medics. i know a couple of them are contoms medics as well(although, some will say if your not contoms your not tems but i digress).

the trucks have been around a few places.one is in new braintree. the other is in framingham(i think). if your ever in those areas, you might see em around. othen than that, i have no idea. i dont work for big blue, just know a few who do.


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## Flight-LP (Jan 26, 2008)

Please tell me you are joking. The big issue is actually the color of the ambulance and its lights??!!??!!

I have always found it strange when states regulate colors. No one pays attention to them anyways, so why bother?!

For the record, Texas could give a rats arse about color. My unit has a rainbow assortment of colors.......red, blue, green, amber, clear...........

Even our 1st responders and fire departments have various colors. So honestly, who cares as long as they are visible from 360 degrees?

Some state regs really make me laugh.........................


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## Arkymedic (Jan 27, 2008)

Flight-LP said:


> Please tell me you are joking. The big issue is actually the color of the ambulance and its lights??!!??!!
> 
> I have always found it strange when states regulate colors. No one pays attention to them anyways, so why bother?!
> 
> ...


 
In OK all ambulances had to be orange for a long time until just a few years ago.


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## Ridryder911 (Jan 27, 2008)

Arkymedic said:


> In OK all ambulances had to be orange for a long time until just a few years ago.



Actually, it was white with the traditional Omaha orange stripe (8"), with Blue lettering, etc. as specified by KKK spec's. 

Yes, I was soooooo glad to see them relax it! Like know one would not know a truck with  lights and a star of life was if it was not white/orange. 

R/r 911


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## Arkymedic (Jan 27, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> Actually, it was white with the traditional Omaha orange stripe (8"), with Blue lettering, etc. as specified by KKK spec's.
> 
> Yes, I was soooooo glad to see them relax it! Like know one would not know a truck with lights and a star of life was if it was not white/orange.
> 
> R/r 911


 
I knew you'd call me on that he he he. I was thinking about it last night on the way to a call and didn't get time to finish it like I meant to.


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## bstone (Jan 27, 2008)

Pretty cool looking rig.

Ya know what, I am glad OEMS threw a fit. They need to be stirred up a little. They need to accept NREMT and stop demanding $300 for a Basic application. 
/end soapbox


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## KEVD18 (Jan 27, 2008)

bstone said:


> Pretty cool looking rig.
> 
> Ya know what, I am glad OEMS threw a fit. They need to be stirred up a little. They need to accept NREMT and stop demanding $300 for a Basic application.
> /end soapbox



you know brad, i cant disagree. i dont think big blue getting into a pissing match with the retards at 2 boylston will help us any though...


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## bstone (Jan 27, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> you know brad, i cant disagree. i dont think big blue getting into a pissing match with the retards at 2 boylston will help us any though...



:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## LIFEGUARDAVIDAS (Jan 27, 2008)

Nice video and even a nicer rig! 

About EMS being separate from LE. Well, in its purest concept: yes that's the idea. 

Each emergency service provider should be a specialized agency. However, in the real world there are many situations where "specialties" are mixed and a single agency has to deal with multiple type incidents. This is more common in two opposite scenarios: large urban areas and remote locations.

More specifically about EMS and Law Enforcement, nowadays it's common for a Police, Sheriff or Highway Patrol dept. to have "EMT-Ts" / Tactical Paramedics only among their SWAT, ESU, SER teams. However in the early 1900s some LE agencies in the US and other countries had regular ambulance services. 

In Los Angeles City, for example, the ambulance service used to be part of the Police Dept. (LAPD) until it was transfered to LAFD. Even some of the early city lifeguards were part of LAPD. -(Later some were transfered to the City R&P Dept. and others were merged with the County LG Service).

County wide, the main EMS is part of the LACoFD however the LACo Sheriff's Dept. has ambulances of its own which are part of the Emergency Service Detail. (They are the main responder agency for flood rescues, air ops, tech rescues, etc. in NW LACo). 

In NYC, NYPD Aviation division have helicopters staffed with paramedics and flights nurses that I think are not tactical since they calls have an advanced EMS nature not a tactical one -unlike NYPD ESU medics / EMT-Ts. PAPD (the NY/NJ Port Authority Police Dept.) provides fire service in JFK Airport (police-firefighters).

Same goes for Maryland State Police famous helicopters that are black with the state flag colors on it. As far as I know they respond to advanced medical emergencies. -I doubt they have to be trained in tactical EMS.

Also, many USAR teams have staff trained in multiple fields. 

This is a common practice of large public safety agencies. I don't believe it means that in the future EMS will become a division of Law Enforcement agencies. Actually, in my field (aquatic safety) more divisions are being transfered from LE agencies to FDs than in the opposite way. 

A couple of examples are the City of Miami Beach Beach-Patrol and the Miami Dade County Ocean Rescue which used to belong to the respective PDs and now they are part of the respective Fire-Rescue Depts. Same happenned in Galveston, TX: the BP used to be part of the Sheriff's Dept. and now it belongs to the FD.

On the other hand, in some areas where there is still a need for it, there are armed lifeguards (CA State Parks, Volusia County - FLA, etc.). Again, this doesn't mean that one day there'll be armed lifeguards at your local YMCA pool. 

---

About the emergency lights color issue, some agencies that haven't been able to be exempt from following a certain state regulation have to use different light colors for the different vehicles -even within the same division. 

Again, another example in my filed: most public lifeguard services in Southern California use red lights for their trucks and SUVs, however due to a state regulation, all boats belonging to an agency with Law Enforcement authority (Police, Sheriff, USCG, Harbor Patrols, lifeguards, park rangers, etc.) have to have blue lights. Besides the estetic issue, it would be less confusing for the general public if all land and water vehicles had same color lights. 

---
I personally believe that it is an advantage to have some public safety agencies which among their divisions have personnel trained in multiple fields (LE, EMS, rescue, fire fighting, SCUBA, air ops., etc.). -Not for routine incident response but for those situations that requires an emergency responder with more than one perspective. 

Back to the main issue, there were, are and will be situations* where a person trained in both Law Enforcement and Pre-hospital Medical Emergency Care would be more useful than having separate LE and EMS personnel arguing about each agency's priorities. *(Besides those Speacial Weapons And Tactical -related ones).

<<JUST MY OPINION>>

Guri


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## MMiz (Jan 28, 2008)

There are a few counties in Michigan where Public Safety Officers (PSOs) are trained as PD/FF/EMS, and carry a full ALS jump kit/supplies in their cars.  From what I understand, it works out great for the more rural counties/areas.


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## firecoins (Jan 28, 2008)

In Westchester, NY, there is a local police department of a small hamlet that provides Paramedic service for all calls within that hamlet.


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## Emt /b/ (Jan 28, 2008)

At a nearby University, the campus police also do the EMS. I saw some waiting in line at triage at a hospital, and they were carrying guns with them.


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## wolfwyndd (Jan 29, 2008)

I haven't read ALL the responses yet, but I have to ask, what's the big deal with a State Police Ambulance?  I see it happen all the time.  Medivac for the State of MD is a State Police helicopter and all of their EMS providers carry guns and are police officers (I have to admit though I DO have a personal problem with an ARMED EMT in the rig).  I forget his handle on here (jj152 maybe) is an EMT in MD so he can vouch for that.  Oakwood, OH hires their 'public safety' employees as Paramedics one day, Police Officers the next, Firefighters on the third day and then they get a couple of days off to do it all over again.  I don't see the big deal with having a State Police Ambulance.


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## KEVD18 (Jan 29, 2008)

wolfwyndd said:


> I haven't read ALL the responses yet...



fix this part, especially mine, and you will understand what the problme is/was.


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## JPINFV (Jan 29, 2008)

wolfwyndd said:


> I haven't read ALL the responses yet, but I have to ask, what's the big deal with a State Police Ambulance?



It competes with the fire department and the fire department doesn't like to compete for funding for jobs that they shouldn't be doing either. Outside of that, it's hand waving freakoutery. I bet that the police officers don't require they're PCRs to be only check marks and spots for numbers (a la Orange County's PCRs for their fire medics).


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## wolfwyndd (Jan 30, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> fix this part, especially mine, and you will understand what the problem is/was.


Ok, I fixed this part.  I read all the comments and to me, it sounds like a big pissing contest between OEMS and the SP.  Personally, I don't care WHAT color lights are on the rig or what color the ambulance is when it comes to pick me up in my time of need, as long as it DOES come pick me up in my time of need.  

Although as I said in my earlier post, I am a bit concerned about having a firearm on the rig.  Not that my opinion means didley when it's for a state I'm not even living in at the moment.


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## KEVD18 (Jan 30, 2008)

well you got it. thats essentially what it was. two state agencies whipping out heir man parts and shouting "mines bigger" till one quit.


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## BossyCow (Jan 30, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> Actually, it was white with the traditional Omaha orange stripe (8"), with Blue lettering, etc. as specified by KKK spec's.
> 
> Yes, I was soooooo glad to see them relax it! Like know one would not know a truck with  lights and a star of life was if it was not white/orange.
> 
> R/r 911



KKK = Klu Klux Klan???? Nah.. gotta be something else.


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## Jon (Feb 3, 2008)

BossyCow said:


> KKK = Klu Klux Klan???? Nah.. gotta be something else.


BossyCow - you don't know about the KKK specs? I mean, it is kinda funny that the "KKK" specs do require a "white" base color  ... 

http://www.gsa.gov/gsa/cm_attachments/GSA_DOCUMENT/ambulanc_1_R2FI5H_0Z5RDZ-i34K-pR.pdf

That link is the current GSA specs from the federal government that specify what an ambulance has to have. These specs are required to be met for a federal government-owned civilian ambulance (USNA at Annapolis has at least one). If you look at the inside of your rig, usually there is a placard in the O2 tank compartment that specifies that the ambulance meets the current KKK-1822 specs and is a "Certified Star Of Life Ambulance"


Anyway... A little EMS history lesson from a whacker that wasn't even born when Johnny and Roy were on the air.

Jon


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## Jon (Feb 3, 2008)

Anyway... as for armed medics. If the medics/EMTs are sworn State Police, I don't see any reason they shouldn't be armed. As for the lighting package... it is funny that the Commonwealth will get ticked off about stuff like that, when there are much bigger issues in EMS... but as you said... State Police can pretty much do what they want.


MD State Police have 8 24x7 helicopters that are dual-role EMS and Law enforcement. The pilots don't need to be sworn, but the other crew member is a sworn State Police officer who is a paramedic. All of the paramedics spend time as a regular state police officer (even if they are already a medic) before becoming a flight crew member, and of course, all are armed on duty. They preform scene flights, SOME emergent inter-facility transfers, Homeland Security patrols, and they support ground Law Enforcement when needed. They are a great asset (and they sometimes operate in the southern end of my county of PA as well). 

MD State police also have a ground response vehicle, and they have tactical medics that function with their SWAT team. Their ground response vehicle is a Ford Excursion designed to allow transport of a subject on a backboard. http://www.mdsp.org/TMU/tmu%20index/vision.htm



Anyway... If the local PD have the funds to operate EMS, I don't have any issue with it. If it means that help gets their faster, I'm all for it.

Jon


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## KEVD18 (Feb 4, 2008)

BossyCow said:


> KKK = Klu Klux Klan???? Nah.. gotta be something else.



btw, it ku klux klan. common mistake.

(this is in no way an endorsement of the organization, the beliefe or the lifestyle.)


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## JPINFV (Feb 4, 2008)

Jon said:


> BossyCow - you don't know about the KKK specs? I mean, it is kinda funny that the "KKK" specs do require a "white" base color


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## BossyCow (Feb 4, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> btw, it ku klux klan. common mistake.
> 
> (this is in no way an endorsement of the organization, the beliefe or the lifestyle.)



I knew that, it was a typo, thanks for catching it btw


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## Keith (Feb 16, 2008)

Hey there fellas, I just wanted to state that im new here, and that im currently working as a basic in MA, training for my Medic upgrade. I agree with a lot of the problems people have about the SP running a bus, but that truck is one of the main reasons that I personally got into EMS. I spent most of my life working construction, thinking about going into LE to follow the family lines, but I always wanted to be more medical based. When I saw that truck, im not gonna lie, my eyes lit up, I figured there was a way to cover both. I understand why people would contest it, but I like the concept... everyone is entitled to thier opinion.

As for carrying firearms on a truck, I would have to say, in some service areas its not such a bad idea. For example, im not sure if any of the MA guys work in systems such as Worcester or Brocton, but at times that piece may come in handy. Im not looking to piss anyone off, again, just a thought.

ANYWAY... if anyone from MA is ever looking to go out and grab a brew, let me know, im always looking for cool people with similar life expieriences to hang with.

Be well all, and make sure you take care of yourself, your much appreciated.


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## Keith (Feb 16, 2008)

P.S. - about 3 months ago, I saw that truck (or one of them), with the badges stripped, and obviously out of service, on the back of a flatbed on rt.290 in Worcester heading east. Im just assuming, the one that was stationed at the Brookfield SP barracks was that one, taken out of service.


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## KEVD18 (Feb 16, 2008)

keith
welcom to the board from another mass emt. please, for the love of god, never mention emts carrying weapons on duty! that discussion has been done thousands of times and its always the same. like watching a train wreck in slow motion.

anyway welcome and good luck.


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## firecoins (Feb 16, 2008)

I mentioned the Westchester County hamlet PD who provides ambulance services.  I found this out at my new job in Westchester County for a transport company.  I saw 2 Greenburgh PD ambulances.  They were manned by uniformed officers with weapons.  They provide ALS service so they must be medics.


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