# Wow, just wow.



## Handsome Robb (Jan 6, 2012)

That's about all I can say about this. :angry:

And we wonder why people call us ambulance drivers and we don't get the respect we 'deserve'?

http://www.ems1.com/ems-news/1214960-medic-accused-of-rape-inside-ambulance/



> The 22-year-old woman, who had fallen and suffered a concussion at a holiday party, says she woke up to find the man assaulting her inside the ambulance on Dec. 25, according to Hamden police. She said she could not move because she was strapped down.


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## DesertMedic66 (Jan 6, 2012)

If it turns out to be true then all I can say is wow and how sad. 

If it turns out to be false then all I can say is wow and how sad.


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## abckidsmom (Jan 6, 2012)

A medic with whom I am extremely close, who I find to be completely trustworthy and regularly trust with my life had a very similar allegation not long ago.

He found the whole thing to be terrifying, and the only reason it wasn't on the news was because they had a third rider in the back that the patient didn't know was there.  The third was sitting in the captain's chair throughout the entire transport.

If there was no witness, it would have been completely "he said, she said," and would have been a career ender.

How do we feel about cameras in the back of the ambulance now?


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## Farmer2DO (Jan 6, 2012)

As said above, it's still an allegation.  We still have the presumption of innocence.  At least, we should.....

Also, virtuous conduct and the horror implied by the lack of it are not solely the property of EMS.  We recently had a police officer in our area go to state prison for targeting high risk females (on parole and probation) doing things they shouldn't (drinking and driving etc) and offering not to violate them in exchange for sex.  For anyone to imply that everyone else is above this is full of $hit.  

The police, chief, in my opinion, should have kept his mouth shut.  He has nothing more than an allegation right now, but he got up on his soapbox and railed against the "outrageous and horrifying conduct" carried out by an EMS professional, and that "the circumstances in this case represent a tremendous breach of that faith."  Sounds to me like he's already got him tried and convicted.  How about letting it play out in the court?  If this man turns out to be falsely accused, he will never recover the damage that has been done to his reputation.  

Shame on the police chief.


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## akflightmedic (Jan 6, 2012)

Still against them....industry wide knee jerk reaction to a very rare number of calls with accusations does not justify it.


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## JPINFV (Jan 6, 2012)

abckidsmom said:


> How do we feel about cameras in the back of the ambulance now?



At EMS Expo, it looks like a lot of companies are starting to add cameras to help record who gets into the controlled substances safe. One of the representatives related a similar story (patient accused a lone paramedic of misconduct), but the camera supported and saved the paramedic.


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## JPINFV (Jan 6, 2012)

Farmer2DO said:


> How about letting it play out in the court?



Hahahaha. This is AMERICA. We live off of convicting people on the less than half of the information that is available outside of the court. 

Examples: 
Michael Jackson (the pedo thing, not the propofol thing)
Casey Anthony
OJ Simpson (the murder thing, not the hotel break in).


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## firetender (Jan 6, 2012)

*We are not immune...*

... from having loose cannons on our deck. 

If true this is really a "one in a million" case considering there are over a million EMTs (all levels) in the U.S. and thank God for that!

Our patients are vulnerable to all sorts of assaults, many of which go unnoted. Like in any profession, there are those amongst us that are completely aberrant. We're still people and not all of our wiring is pristine!

Let's take a "wait and see" on this one...I read this as an accusation, not a reality as yet.


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## R99 (Jan 6, 2012)

Had a guy here get canned because a patient said he touched her while checking to see if she was crowning meaning he will never work in the country again, good paramedic too, well yeah

If this guy is innocent then good luck to him is all I can say


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## bigbaldguy (Jan 6, 2012)

An excellent example of why additional professional liability insurance is a really good idea.


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## sdover (Jan 7, 2012)

maybe cameras in the ambulance are a good idea? that way it is not relying on "he said, she said"


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## Handsome Robb (Jan 7, 2012)

Now where do patient privacy laws come into play with a camera in the box?


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## bstone (Jan 7, 2012)

In the he-said/she-said situations with no witnesses you have to rely upon several other factors. Is there any physical evidence (fluids, fibers, etc)? Does the medic have any previous history? Does the "victim" have any history of false police reports? I'd be interested to see the final result of the investigation.


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## Martyn (Jan 7, 2012)

OK, so where was the partner in all this? Hiding?


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## JPINFV (Jan 7, 2012)

Martyn said:


> OK, so where was the partner in all this? Hiding?




...driving...


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## Handsome Robb (Jan 7, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> ...driving...



Our units have pass throughs...I can see the box pretty fell in the rear view mirror...


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## JPINFV (Jan 7, 2012)

NVRob said:


> Our units have pass throughs...I can see the box pretty fell in the rear view mirror...



I can too, but that doesn't mean I'm noticing everything that's going on in the back. Sure, I might notice if someone is standing, but I'm going to click off the "someone's standing" mental check box and get my eyes back on the road.


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## Shishkabob (Jan 8, 2012)

True or not, Any decent defense lawyer will rip her story to shreds with "how can she prove ANYTHING when she had a loss of consciousness and a concussion?".  Granted we don't know the full details, but unless there's actual physical evidence, I don't see her "winning".

Chances are, this is a false allegation, like most often are.  I hope it turns out to not be true, but it wouldn't be the first time it would be true.




I once had a young female patient act REALLY weird when it was just her and I in the back, stating stuff like she didn't want any more fentanyl because it made her feel fuzzy and she wanted to be fully alert, asked if we had cameras in the box, and when I pointed it out, asked if they recorded, etc etc.

Believe you me, first thing my partner and I did was contact our supervisor, write and CC emails about the incident, and tell the doctor at the hospital.  Even the doctor got a strange feeling about her when it was just him and her alone in the room.


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## Aidey (Jan 8, 2012)

Good grief, since when were assault and rape the same thing? Talk about an inflammatory headline. I bet if she had actually accused him of rape he would have been arrested ASAP, not 2 weeks later. 

What I found interesting is that various news agencies have reported that the assault lasted 5-7 seconds and he is being charged with unlawful restraint. 

Now, I suspect she was on a back board, so is that what they are considering restrained? And 5-7 seconds is a very specific amount of time for a disoriented/semi-conscious person to come up with. While there are definitely EMTs/Paramedics who commit crimes in the back of the amb, this is one of the less believable reports IMO. I also agree that the officials should have kept their mouths shut, or else said something a little less one sided.


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## Aidey (Jan 8, 2012)

NVRob said:


> Our units have pass throughs...I can see the box pretty fell in the rear view mirror...



You're assuming the driver was using it. My last partner barely ever used the rear-view mirror, and was generally oblivious to what was going on in the back.


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## Martyn (Jan 8, 2012)

NVRob said:


> Our units have pass throughs...I can see the box pretty fell in the rear view mirror...


 
exactly.


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## JPINFV (Jan 9, 2012)

> The warrant says Powell at first denied any inappropriate  contact but then said he touched the woman's breasts and genitals "to  elicit a response from or awake the female." The warrant says he  expressed remorse to police.



http://www.emsworld.com/news/10611546/conn-emt-admitted-sexually-assaulting-patient



Well... alrighty then. Apparently checking for responsiveness now comes with a free bimanual pelvic and breast exam.


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## bstone (Jan 9, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> http://www.emsworld.com/news/10611546/conn-emt-admitted-sexually-assaulting-patient
> 
> 
> 
> Well... alrighty then. Apparently checking for responsiveness now comes with a free bimanual pelvic and breast exam.



I'm betting on a 10 year sentence, with 5 years probation.

wtf is wrong with this guy?


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## tacitblue (Jan 10, 2012)

What is wrong with the guy? Maybe a lot or maybe only being too willing to trust  that the police are honest. Perhaps a overzealous detective mistook a full body trauma exam with "breast and genital touching". You never know.


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## DesertMedic66 (Jan 10, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> http://www.emsworld.com/news/10611546/conn-emt-admitted-sexually-assaulting-patient
> 
> 
> 
> Well... alrighty then. Apparently checking for responsiveness now comes with a free bimanual pelvic and breast exam.



Is that going to be part of the new trauma assessment for the 2012 year? 

Kidding obviously.


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## JPINFV (Jan 10, 2012)

firefite said:


> Is that going to be part of the new trauma assessment for the 2012 year?
> 
> Kidding obviously.




As the saying goes, a finger or tube in every hole.


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## DrParasite (Jan 10, 2012)

Linuss said:


> True or not, Any decent defense lawyer will rip her story to shreds with "how can she prove ANYTHING when she had a loss of consciousness and a concussion?".  Granted we don't know the full details, but unless there's actual physical evidence, I don't see her "winning".
> 
> Chances are, this is a false allegation, like most often are.  I hope it turns out to not be true, but it wouldn't be the first time it would be true.


Guilty until proven innocent.  the media will always convict someone to sell papers, even if the story isn't true.  Even if he's found not guilty, his career is likely over.

and how much do you want to bet she didn't fall and get a concussion, she passed out from to much alcohol, resulting in her injury and/or or loss of consciousness?  after all, this did happen at a holiday party.


JPINFV said:


> http://www.emsworld.com/news/10611546/conn-emt-admitted-sexually-assaulting-patientWell... alrighty then. Apparently checking for responsiveness now comes with a free bimanual pelvic and breast exam.


how does he check for responsiveness?  a nipple twister is him checking for painful stimuli?

but why did she wait until after she left the hospital to call the cops?  police respond to ERs all the time.  if she was being assaulted, how come she didn't scream so the man's partner would stop and do something?  or have the hospital immediately contact the medic's boss to file the complaint?

Like I said before, guilty until proven innocent.  And if he did commit the crimes he is accused of, I say throw him in jail for the maximum amount of time permitted by law.


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## JPINFV (Jan 10, 2012)

DrParasite said:


> Guilty until proven innocent.  the media will always convict someone to sell papers, even if the story isn't true.  Even if he's found not guilty, his career is likely over.
> and how much do you want to bet she didn't fall and get a concussion, she passed out from to much alcohol, resulting in her injury and/or or loss of consciousness?  after all, this did happen at a holiday party.
> how does he check for responsiveness?  a nipple twister is him checking for painful stimuli?


"The warrant says Powell at first denied any inappropriate contact but  then said he touched the woman's breasts and genitals "to elicit a  response from or awake the female." The warrant says he expressed  remorse to police."

When the news article reports that the arrest warrant says the guy admitted to it, then I'm going to go ahead and say, "The guy admitted to it."

Ok, let's assume that he was doing a titty twister to check for painful stimuli. In what world would that be considered an appropriate test for painful stimuli? You threw that out there, now justify how a titty twister is a legitimate medical test for painful stimuli in a situation like this. "Sorry miss, your T3 or T4 may be damaged, but instead of testing out the dermatome... well just about any other place on that plane, I've gotta play with your nipple."



> but why did she wait until after she left the hospital to call the cops?  police respond to ERs all the time.  if she was being assaulted, how come she didn't scream so the man's partner would stop and do something?  or have the hospital immediately contact the medic's boss to file the complaint?


Does it matter? Seriously, does it matter provided that it was reported within the statute of limitations? 


> Like I said before, guilty until proven innocent.  And if he did commit the crimes he is accused of, I say throw him in jail for the maximum amount of time permitted by law.


Does it matter if he admits to doing what he's accused of doing?


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## DrParasite (Jan 10, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> "The warrant says Powell at first denied any inappropriate contact but  then said he touched the woman's breasts and genitals "to elicit a  response from or awake the female." The warrant says he expressed  remorse to police."
> 
> When the news article reports that the arrest warrant says the guy admitted to it, then I'm going to go ahead and say, "The guy admitted to it."
> 
> ...


hold up there skippy: if he actually did admit to doing it (because we know the news is always 100% accurate), and never exaggerates an article to sell papers, than fine, he did the crime, he gets convicted and does the time.  I'm actually surprised they even needed a warrant, usually when a person admits to committing a crime to the police they get arrested immediately.

I was trying to be sarcastic when I mentioned the titty twister as being an acceptable way to check for stimuli.  I would have thought a med student like yourself would have picked up on it.

assuming he didn't admit doing it, have you ever had a complaint filed against you (for anything, not rape as the article says)?  usually they happen from the ER staff or from the patient in the ER.  typically not after the patient gets discharged, has consulted a shady attorney for how much she can sue for damages.  for criminal acts, it's done immediately when the person is safe, after the crew leaves, so the PD can investigate immediately.  These accusations happen all the time (well not all the time thankfully, but they are all too common), and generally baseless.


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## JPINFV (Jan 10, 2012)

If he didn't admit to it, I imagine he's going to have a pretty good cause for action against who ever either wrote the warrant up, or who ever reported that the warrant said something it didn't say. 

Alternatively, if he didn't do it, why admit to it?


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## Mlee81 (Mar 8, 2012)

In an event to protect oneself, could an EMT/Paramedic wear a hidden cam or audio devise?  Or better yet one inside the vehicle?  Than it wouldn't be hear say.

That's disturbing that upon an allegation someone's career can be ruined.  If the person did it, he should be made an example of.  It seems all the allegations would be done away with if they had some type of cam with audio devise.  Than there's no speculations.


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## JPINFV (Mar 8, 2012)

The probably with auditory recording is that there is a valid expectation of privacy in the back of an ambulance, thus making it fall victim to "wire tapping" laws in two party consent states.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 9, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> The probably with auditory recording is that there is a valid expectation of privacy in the back of an ambulance, thus making it fall victim to "wire tapping" laws in two party consent states.



Not to mention the whole data protection and record retention thing in HIPAA.


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## JPINFV (Mar 9, 2012)

ffemt8978 said:


> Not to mention the whole data protection and record retention thing in HIPAA.



I'm not too concerned with that. Lock the cabinet and you're done. Make it so the videos tape over every couple of days and you're good to go. Changing 2 party consent laws takes an act of legislature to get around.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 9, 2012)

Mlee81 said:


> *In an event to protect oneself, could an EMT/Paramedic wear a hidden cam or audio devise? * Or better yet one inside the vehicle?  Than it wouldn't be hear say.
> 
> That's disturbing that upon an allegation someone's career can be ruined.  If the person did it, he should be made an example of.  It seems all the allegations would be done away with if they had some type of cam with audio devise.  Than there's no speculations.





JPINFV said:


> I'm not too concerned with that. Lock the cabinet and you're done. Make it so the videos tape over every couple of days and you're good to go. Changing 2 party consent laws takes an act of legislature to get around.



For the one in the vehicle, it would probably require agency oversight to install it so that would be a possibility.  Given the highlighted portion above, it seems more likely the agency would not know about it.  That was the part I was directing my comment towards.  But as a resident of a two party consent state, I understand your point too.


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## JPINFV (Mar 9, 2012)

Yea.. I realized that you were directing it to the "Well, let's just strap a video camera on my on accord" concept after I posted it.

Besides, to the best of my knowledge HIPAA is civil, whereas wiretap laws are criminal. I'd rather give up my money before I give up my freedom.


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## ffemt8978 (Mar 9, 2012)

HIPAA has criminal penalties too.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/phy...ability-act/hipaa-violations-enforcement.page



> Criminal Penalties
> In June 2005, the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) clarified who can be held criminally liable under HIPAA. Covered entities and specified individuals, as explained below, whom "knowingly" obtain or disclose individually identifiable health information in violation of the Administrative Simplification Regulations face a fine of up to $50,000, as well as imprisonment up to one year. Offenses committed under false pretenses allow penalties to be increased to a $100,000 fine, with up to five years in prison. Finally, offenses committed with the intent to sell, transfer, or use individually identifiable health information for commercial advantage, personal gain or malicious harm permit fines of $250,000, and imprisonment for up to ten years.


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## JPINFV (Mar 9, 2012)

Ahh, good to know, however I don't think that any of those would necessarily apply in this case, provided the covered entity didn't just start waving around the information.


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## Mlee81 (Mar 9, 2012)

ffemt8978 said:


> *For the one in the vehicle, it would probably require agency oversight to install it so that would be a possibility.*  Given the highlighted portion above, it seems more likely the agency would not know about it.  That was the part I was directing my comment towards.  But as a resident of a two party consent state, I understand your point too.



Concerning the bold, it seems that could be a good way to protect both protect the provider as long as the recording material was protected. 

I can understand why a personal device wouldn't be allowed.  Thought I'd ask anyways.


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## johnrsemt (Mar 11, 2012)

It may hit the point of needing to have 2 people in the back at all times.  I have asked to have a 2nd person in the back for certain patients;  15 y/o female with mental issues for one.   Overdose, we did a 12 lead, 2 IV's   didn't want any possibility of her saying that I 'Touched' her while putting the electrodes on.

  We had a nurse get accused of sexual assault at the ED while putting the electrodes on a 60+ y/o female.  by the daughter, because the 'female nurse touched my mothers breasts'.   She took it all the way to court.  It was thrown out,  but didn't help the nurse out very much.


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## Steveb (Mar 12, 2012)

abckidsmom said:


> How do we feel about cameras in the back of the ambulance now?



Are you forgetting HIPPA?


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## johnrsemt (Mar 12, 2012)

If the camera in the back was mounted on the top of the front wall of the box; all it would show would be the back of the patients head; unless the pt was flat on a LBB; and it could be adjusted so that it only showed starting from about 18" from the top of the cot.
  That way it wouldn't show the pt's face.   

   Then there shouldn't be much of a HIPAA problem.


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## Shishkabob (Mar 12, 2012)

Steveb said:


> Are you forgetting HIPPA?



Are you forgetting how HIPPA really works?



I can record people with video cameras all day long and never violate HIPPA.


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## johnrsemt (Mar 12, 2012)

Yes we can record people all day;  but if that recording ends up in an open court,  or on you tube it can cause problems;  but if it just shows the person from the neck down;  less problems


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## johnrsemt (Mar 12, 2012)

Sorry;   and not just HIPAA problems


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## abckidsmom (Mar 12, 2012)

johnrsemt said:


> Yes we can record people all day;  but if that recording ends up in an open court,  or on you tube it can cause problems;  but if it just shows the person from the neck down;  less problems



There are health care environments that use video recording. There is no violation unless you violate it. Yes, the video would be protected, but it would need the same privacy as a PPCR. So don't put it on YouTube. It would certainly show up in court if subpoenaed, just like anything else. A smart judge would view it in private before letting it be viewed in public. 

I was being half flippant about my post quoted above, but I would be happy to have a camera in the back if it would shut down allegations like this. 

A medic I know had an allegation of this sort and it could have been a career ender, regardless of the facts. If the patient's story was good enough it could have gone all the way.


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## Shishkabob (Mar 12, 2012)

Not to mention the fact that HIPPA violation fees are cheaper than lawyer fees and potential settlements in court.  


Lesser of 2 evils.


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## Steveb (Mar 16, 2012)

Linuss said:


> Not to mention the fact that HIPPA violation fees are cheaper than lawyer fees and potential settlements in court.
> 
> 
> Lesser of 2 evils.


:rofl:True


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