# nj first aid council



## Silver_Star (Oct 8, 2009)

so today some of the older members of my squad were talking about the training fund and saying how since the 4million isn't being put back its going to run out eventually. because of that they wanted to withdraw from the council so they could not have to worry about training members as emts so they could still answer calls without the need to have any emts in the back. 
i was curious if this is actually legal and possible?


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## DrParasite (Oct 8, 2009)

technically, they are right.  in NJ, the paid agencies are looked over by the DOH, and the volunteers by the First aid council.  So, if they are volunteers, and decide to withdraw, they could pretty much do what they want, which includes going on calls with no EMTs.

That all being said, it is a very bad idea.  everyone should be trained to at least the EMT level.  volunteers and paid like.  if they are worried about funds, start billing insurance companies.  let the DOH regular them.  they are an untapped resource.

don't get me wrong, I think the NJFAC is a waste of hot air, and think the more squads who leave them the better we are in the state.  however, if a squad i was on left the NJFAC, for the sole purpose of being able to run an ambulance with out have any EMTs on it, or without having any state approve EMS training on it, well, my resignation would be in the next day, and i would try to convince all my friends to quit as well.  

running an ambulance without any training to do the job is just scary, and if your elders are looking to do that, well tell me what town it is in, so I know to have all my friends and family avoid it.


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## TotowaEMT (Oct 8, 2009)

yea that sounds very scary and probably not legal

see page 23-24 of this document, pretty much says someone on board needs to be an emt
http://www.state.nj.us/health/ems/documents/ambulance_regs.pdf


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## EMSLaw (Oct 8, 2009)

TotowaEMT said:


> yea that sounds very scary and probably not legal
> 
> see page 23-24 of this document, pretty much says someone on board needs to be an emt
> http://www.state.nj.us/health/ems/documents/ambulance_regs.pdf




Only paid EMS services are licensed by the Department of Health.  They don't have any jurisdiction over volunteer ambulances.  That's why, for example, volunteers can roll with one EMT and a driver, whereas paid ambulances require two EMTs.  

Still, I don't think the idea of sending out an ambulance without an EMT is a good one.  The only possible exception - and that doesn't seem to be what you have in mind - is if you were a volunteer company, and the EMT was meeting the ambulance at the scene, for squads where people respond from their homes.  Fortunately, we sleep-in, so I don't have to worry about that.


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## TotowaEMT (Oct 8, 2009)

thats crazy then if thats the case im with the guy above, let me know what town this is so I never drive through it.


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## Silver_Star (Oct 8, 2009)

TotowaEMT said:


> thats crazy then if thats the case im with the guy above, let me know what town this is so I never drive through it.



lol. thats just the older crowd talk. the guy who said  this was from the days before emt's existed. hes 80-something yrs old and still going. 
but the people who actually do take the calls such as myself would keep up on their EMT certs.


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## 51 RESCUE EMT-B (Oct 8, 2009)

That's not exactly true, we are a volunteer squad and we are governed by DOH. It was our choice to adhere to their regulations and have our ambulances inspected by them.




EMSLaw said:


> Only paid EMS services are licensed by the Department of Health.  They don't have any jurisdiction over volunteer ambulances.  That's why, for example, volunteers can roll with one EMT and a driver, whereas paid ambulances require two EMTs.
> 
> Still, I don't think the idea of sending out an ambulance without an EMT is a good one.  The only possible exception - and that doesn't seem to be what you have in mind - is if you were a volunteer company, and the EMT was meeting the ambulance at the scene, for squads where people respond from their homes.  Fortunately, we sleep-in, so I don't have to worry about that.


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## DrParasite (Oct 8, 2009)

51 RESCUE EMT-B said:


> That's not exactly true, we are a volunteer squad and we are governed by DOH. It was our choice to adhere to their regulations and have our ambulances inspected by them.


negative sir.  you can choose to be inspected, you can chose to be licensed.  however, you are not REQUIRED to be licensed.

the FAC says you must run with 1 EMT.  the DOH requires 2.  if you are not paid, and resign from the FAC, you don't have to follow the rules of either.


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## 51 RESCUE EMT-B (Oct 8, 2009)

I never said required, I said choose to be.



DrParasite said:


> negative sir.  you can choose to be inspected, you can chose to be licensed.  however, you are not REQUIRED to be licensed.
> 
> the FAC says you must run with 1 EMT.  the DOH requires 2.  if you are not paid, and resign from the FAC, you don't have to follow the rules of either.


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## dewd09 (Oct 9, 2009)

DrParasite said:


> you don't have to follow the rules of either.



Cool, I'm going to New Jersey to run an ambulance service with my Subaru Outback!


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## Jon (Oct 10, 2009)

51 RESCUE EMT-B said:


> That's not exactly true, we are a volunteer squad and we are governed by DOH. It was our choice to adhere to their regulations and have our ambulances inspected by them.


This also means that you can bill insurance, and as your volunteer base falls off, you can just add paid staff to fill the gaps.

My understanding is that as long as you are a volunteer, the training fund will still pay, correct, even if the squad isn't in the FAC.

I don't know. I work in Jersey occasionally. On a dual-certed PA/NJ truck. When I do ALS calls in NJ, I need to bring a RN along - which is kinda silly, but whatever. I avoid NJ  Vollitics. Which seem to be worse than other places.

Jon


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## DrParasite (Oct 10, 2009)

dewd09 said:


> Cool, I'm going to New Jersey to run an ambulance service with my Subaru Outback!


as long as you are not going to bill anyone for the service, you can run an ambulance service on your motorcycle.  or a bicycle.  or a pogo stick.  but you might have some issues getting red lights and sirens permits from the state DMV 

and yes, that is a scary thought


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## NJN (Oct 10, 2009)

Three cheers for those who dislike the First Grade council.  I like my training fund but I don't like being associated with a bunch of yahoos who go volly as a drive on an ambulance for "fun".


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## dewd09 (Oct 10, 2009)

I'm a subscriber to Gold Cross, but I'm not an active provider anywhere. A screw went loose.


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## JPINFV (Oct 10, 2009)

DrParasite said:


> technically, they are right.  in NJ, the paid agencies are looked over by the DOH, and the volunteers by the First aid council.  So, if they are volunteers, and decide to withdraw, they could pretty much do what they want, which includes going on calls with no EMTs.



I just want to make sure I have this right. If I wanted to, I could go to NJ and just run an ambulance with who ever I want with what ever training I want so long as they are volunteer?


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## EMSLaw (Oct 10, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> I just want to make sure I have this right. If I wanted to, I could go to NJ and just run an ambulance with who ever I want with what ever training I want so long as they are volunteer?



That's pretty much my understanding.  Of course, you wouldn't be dispatched to calls, but if you wanted to hand out leaflets with 'Fly by Nite Volunteer Amb-lance Svc. (Dial 908-555-SICK)' on them, you probably could.  

I'm sure there's still legal liability to running an ambulance without EMTs, and it's a manifestly bad idea, and you wouldn't be able to have anything on it that's restricted to EMTs, like epi-pens...  

But, yeah, pretty much.  Crazy, right?


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## BLSBoy (Oct 11, 2009)

I hate this state more and more every day. 

Until our legislators grow a set of cajones, and say to all the bluelight terrorists and ambulance social clubs that THIS is the way things will be run, either you follow the rules, or we refuse to allow you to operate an ambulance any further, this is what we will deal with. 

As for the EMT course, its what, 300-500 bucks?
I dont wanna hear how hurting most vollie agencies are. 
Stop sending people to the embarassment in wildwood every year in dept vehicles.
Stop putting 50,000 LED flashies on the ambulances. 
Obey the State Regs and BILL. 

I hate this state, I hate this state, I really hate this state. <_<


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## EMSLaw (Oct 11, 2009)

BLSBoy said:


> Until our legislators grow a set of cajones, and say to all the bluelight terrorists and ambulance social clubs that THIS is the way things will be run, either you follow the rules, or we refuse to allow you to operate an ambulance any further, this is what we will deal with.



Slapping that self-righteous brush around a bit thick, aren't we?  I mean, I don't like the way things in this state operate any more than you do (I think), but there are good and bad Vollie squads, just like there are good and bad paid services.  

And for the record, I do not, and will not have, a blue light in my car.  Mainly since there is no reason for me ever to respond to a call in my POV unless I happen to come upon a crash on the side of the road - in which situation I won't need a blue light to get there, now will I?


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## DrParasite (Oct 11, 2009)

BLSBoy said:


> I hate this state more and more every day.


so why are you still here?  plenty of medic openings in Pa, Del, and NY.  no one is forcing  you to be here.



BLSBoy said:


> Stop sending people to the embarassment in wildwood every year in dept vehicles.


yeah, because so many volunteer EMS providers attending the wildwood FIREFIGHTERS convention   be honest AJ, how often do you or members of your FIRE DEPARTMENT attend this embarrassment?  it's a fire event, while some EMS people attend, it's usually firefighters.  and volunteer firefighters.  which you are.  so who is actually the embarrassment?





BLSBoy said:


> Stop putting 50,000 LED flashies on the ambulances.


oh grow up.  more and more ambulances are coming with LEDs, their bulbs don't burn up or tax batteries as much as strobes and rotators.  and it's not just volunteer ambulances, my per diem paid job just got 3 new ambulances, all with LEDs.  it's becoming the new standards.



BLSBoy said:


> Obey the State Regs and BILL.


well, I can't disagree with you on this one.



JPINFV said:


> I just want to make sure I have this right. If I wanted to, I could go to NJ and just run an ambulance with who ever I want with what ever training I want so long as they are volunteer?


I never said it was a great system, nor that it made much sense.  but yes, as scary as that is, technically you could


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## BLSBoy (Oct 11, 2009)

DrParasite said:


> so why are you still here?  plenty of medic openings in Pa, Del, and NY.  no one is forcing  you to be here.


Experience is second to none, and the pay is top rate. 
However, I test with Hillsborough County Fire this Tuesday, and waiting to see whats gonna happen with Orange County Fire. 



> yeah, because so many volunteer EMS providers attending the wildwood FIREFIGHTERS convention   be honest AJ, how often do you or members of your FIRE DEPARTMENT attend this embarrassment?  it's a fire event, while some EMS people attend, it's usually firefighters.  and volunteer firefighters.  which you are.  so who is actually the embarrassment?


Actually, I saw a LOT this year. I stayed about a block north of the convention center with friends from Camden County, even though I live in Cape May County. 
For the record, I am no longer a vollie FF. I was kicked off for not showing up for 2 months, even though I made it well known I would be working my Medic job, my PT FF job, and my PT marina job, and made every effort to show up when I could. 
That said, I saw many members from my PT job (North Wildwood FD) down there, working, training, wandering around the exibits, and cutting up at the bars. 
Funny thing, none of them had shirts on from ANY FD/EMS agency when they went out to drink. 



> oh grow up.  more and more ambulances are coming with LEDs, their bulbs don't burn up or tax batteries as much as strobes and rotators.  and it's not just volunteer ambulances, my per diem paid job just got 3 new ambulances, all with LEDs.  it's becoming the new standards.


Not what I meant, and I'm pretty sure you know it. 
I'm talking about the ambulances that are OVERKILL, and that have extraordinarily fast flash patterns that burn my retinas. 
Many a squad has refused to turn off the lights because "you call 911, you get lights and sirens". Wait till an MICU crashes because they are blinded by the lights. 
To be fair and balanced, many a paid agency are the same. However, I point this out to show that if you can afford to put EXTRA flashies on there, you can afford to put members through EMT. 
For the record, I LOVE LEDs. I am on AtlantiCare's EMS Vehicle team, and have assisted in speccing out new vehicles. We go all Whelen LEDs on ours. 




> well, I can't disagree with you on this one.


See, we still agree on some things!



For those who don't know, Dr. P and I go back a ways, on many different sites, always debating (usually civilally ^_^) the same topics. 
We respect each others opinions, (no matter how wrong his are ) and occasionally learn a thing or two. 

We aren't random haters.


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## dewd09 (Oct 11, 2009)

BLSBoy said:


> I hate this state, I hate this state, I really hate this state. <_<




Hate is such a strong word, and you seem to throw around your hate messages quite a bit. Maybe it's not the Volly's, it the people who can't keep their mouth closed?


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## BLSBoy (Oct 11, 2009)

dewd09 said:


> Hate is such a strong word, and you seem to throw around your hate messages quite a bit. Maybe it's not the Volly's, it the people who can't keep their mouth closed?



Maybe its the furst grade counsil who keeps the standards for EMS low by not mandating 2 EMTs on an ambulance. 

Maybe its the state who empowers BLS crews who can pretty much tell me to stuff it when I request they slow down, and turn off lights and sirens. 
In what fantasy world does BLS tell ALS what to do?

I hate that all it takes is a 110hr course for a person to be able to determine if a patient needs ALS or not. 

I hate that the state regs prevent me from working for a public agency (other then UMD up north), because only hospitals are good enough to provide ALS. :glare: Thanks for screwing me out of a pension. 

How bout our corrupt politicians?

Ever been to the Wildwood Firemans Convention?
I went this year to train (got stuck working instead), get a few good deals on things I need, socialize, and see some cool new toys. 

Talk about an embarassment to emergency services......

I hate stupid paid services just as much as I hate stupid volunteer services. 
However, then the volunteers have a group who _openly_ advocates  *not* having at a minimum, 2 EMTs on an ambulance, how are we as a profession supposed to move forward?


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## Jon (Oct 11, 2009)

BLSBoy said:


> Actually, I saw a LOT this year. I stayed about a block north of the convention center with friends from Camden County, even though I live in Cape May County.
> For the record, I am no longer a vollie FF. I was kicked off for not showing up for 2 months, even though I made it well known I would be working my Medic job, my PT FF job, and my PT marina job, and made every effort to show up when I could.
> That said, I saw many members from my PT job (North Wildwood FD) down there, working, training, wandering around the exibits, and cutting up at the bars.
> Funny thing, none of them had shirts on from ANY FD/EMS agency when they went out to drink.



AJ... thats why a group of folks from a local county makes "Shore Force" t-shirts - it says "I'm involved in fire/EMS, but NOT with any particular station"

One of these years I need to make it down. I hear fun stories each year.



BLSBoy said:


> I hate that the state regs prevent me from working for a public agency (other then UMD up north), because only hospitals are good enough to provide ALS. :glare: Thanks for screwing me out of a pension.



And I hate that when I get pulled across the river from PA to cover a NJ call, my ALS truck becomes a BLS truck... and I need to take a trauma patient in BLS, because we try and fail to meet up with a MICU (or 3). Somehow getting ALS becomes a Cluster**** over there.


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## TotowaEMT (Oct 12, 2009)

just to clarify, there is nothing that says you need to be an NJSFAC member to be eligible for the training fund, you just need to be on a volunteer squad.


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## Shishkabob (Oct 12, 2009)

BLSBoy said:


> In what fantasy world does BLS tell ALS what to do?



And in what fantasy world does being ALS make you the boss of BLS providers?


Last I checked, the medic only has control over patient care... not what an EMT does in any other non-related facet of their job.


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## bunkie (Oct 12, 2009)

BLSBoy said:


> As for the EMT course, its what, 300-500 bucks?



Wow, its cheap out there. I paid a grand alone for my tuition, that doesn't include my books, equipment and uniform for my er rotation.


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## BLSBoy (Oct 12, 2009)

Linuss said:


> And in what fantasy world does being ALS make you the boss of BLS providers?
> 
> 
> Last I checked, the medic only has control over patient care... not what an EMT does in any other non-related facet of their job.



When the state regs say no lights and sirens to the hospital unless its an emergency. When the Medics are there, unless we say so, the emergency is pretty much over. 
Its MY life they are gambling with now. I don't take kindly to that. ALS _leads_ the EMS team during patient care. 
If I ask for a Reeves, low flow O2, and a nice easy ride to the hospital, I expect a Reeves, low flow O2, and a nice easy ride to the hospital, not to go screaming down the road with flashies and woo woos.


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## SES4 (Oct 12, 2009)

BLSBoy said:


> When the state regs say no lights and sirens to the hospital unless its an emergency. When the Medics are there, unless we say so, the emergency is pretty much over.
> Its MY life they are gambling with now. I don't take kindly to that. ALS _leads_ the EMS team during patient care.
> If I ask for a Reeves, low flow O2, and a nice easy ride to the hospital, I expect a Reeves, low flow O2, and a nice easy ride to the hospital, not to go screaming down the road with flashies and woo woos.



Plain and simple:  People do not understand NJ's system.  

Also, I tend to think I will be the same as you when I finally get become an MICP, if I ask for something politely and professionally please do it as in NJ ALS definitely had a lot more responibility and liability than BLS.  As it stands now, ALS makes a request I oblige.


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## NJnewbie (Oct 12, 2009)

bunkie said:


> Wow, its cheap out there. I paid a grand alone for my tuition, that doesn't include my books, equipment and uniform for my er rotation.



I think what the previous poster said is a little low.  The community college near me charges $650.  And it's free if you belong to a volunteer squad.


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## JPINFV (Oct 12, 2009)

I couldn't imagine paying 1k for 110 hours of training. The local high school vo-tech (most courses open to adults) only charged a $40 registration fee and it was an additional $80 for books.


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## SES4 (Oct 12, 2009)

My previous post was typed on an iPod touch so sorry for poor spelling, grammar, and punctuation.


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## BLSBoy (Oct 12, 2009)

SES4 said:


> Plain and simple:  People do not understand NJ's system.
> 
> Also, I tend to think I will be the same as you when I finally get become an MICP, if I ask for something politely and professionally please do it as in NJ ALS definitely had a lot more responibility and liability than BLS.  As it stands now, ALS makes a request I oblige.



Good for you!
You are furthering your career, and you realize that RL&S are for emergencies. 

M is for MOBILE. I try to do as much as I can do while Mobile. Its much easier to do IVs while driving smoothly!


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## SES4 (Oct 12, 2009)

BLSBoy said:


> Good for you!
> You are furthering your career, and you realize that RL&S are for emergencies.
> 
> M is for MOBILE. I try to do as much as I can do while Mobile. Its much easier to do IVs while driving smoothly!



Why thank you AJ.  Seriously though you are correct, M is for MOBILE and we have to get in as much as possible while MOBILE.  And NJ legislation does spell out loud and clear when, where, how, and why one would, could, should, etc. use RL&S.  It's pretty easy to understand.  

As for the First Aid Squad Council:  Seriously, we need to go paid BLS perhaps augment it with volunteers to allow people to volunteer. But the bulk of NJ EMS should be paid.  I think it would definitely improve NJ EMS generally.  I know this is not a popular opinion but oh well I am entitled to my opinion and that is what I think.


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## DrParasite (Oct 13, 2009)

BLSBoy said:


> Good for you!
> You are furthering your career, and you realize that RL&S are for emergencies.


you know, this is one of those cases where I agree with BLSBoy 100%.  however, I know of several 100% paid agencies that routinely use RL&S for transporting patients that are not experiencing life threatening emergencies.  I also know of some ALS providers that say anytime they transport a patient, RL&S are to be used.  in fact, I know of one BLS crew that didn't want L&S and the ALS did, even though the patient was reportedly stable (but still warranted ALS for a workup), which resulted in a complaints being filed by both crews with their respective supervisors.  so you can't say it's just volunteers or BLS, because paid staff and ALS are just as guilty.


BLSBoy said:


> M is for MOBILE. I try to do as much as I can do while Mobile. Its much easier to do IVs while driving smoothly!


haha, so that's what the M stands for.  I have seen so many ALS providers set up camp at the side of the road during a line of sight rendezvous, or just spend waaaaaay too much time on scene that I thought it was for "maintain current location."  But in all fairness, I know of many who will do all their assessment and interventions while enroute to the hospital.


SES4 said:


> As for the First Aid Squad Council:  Seriously, we need to go paid BLS perhaps augment it with volunteers to allow people to volunteer. But the bulk of NJ EMS should be paid.  I think it would definitely improve NJ EMS generally.  I know this is not a popular opinion but oh well I am entitled to my opinion and that is what I think.


and I think you are right, 100%. But I would like expand on your statement. 

NJ has a lot of small, volunteer squads throughout the state, usually one per town.  This results in small call volume agencies (between 200 and 600 calls a year), where it doesn't pay to pay staff 24/7.  In order to improve, we need to consolidate those smaller squads into larger multi-town or county based EMS agencies.

But also don't group all volunteer agencies as one or two call a day places.  My parent's town gets about 5000 EMS calls a year (give or take a few hundred).  one squad covers the town.  nights and weekends are all volunteer, with the occasional day crew.  how many of your EMS agencies can say the same?  And before anyone asks, I wish they would put on paid staff 24/7 and bill instead of having to beg for donations.

more larger paid agencies, fewer slow volunteer agencies, equal training standards for all, fewer town boundaries restricting emergency services, closest unit goes, yeah, a man can dream.


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## EMSLaw (Oct 13, 2009)

Paid or volunteer ambulances are still drawing from the same pool of applicants.  You're going to get a lot of 19-year-old EMTs who want to drive an ambulance like they stole it.  

Sure, volunteer squads should have the same training and equipment standards as paid companies.  Beyond that, it's the EMTs, not whether they get a paycheck, that make the difference.


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## 51 RESCUE EMT-B (Oct 13, 2009)

You cannot be 19 and drive an ambulance in the state of NJ.



EMSLaw said:


> Paid or volunteer ambulances are still drawing from the same pool of applicants.  You're going to get a lot of 19-year-old EMTs who want to drive an ambulance like they stole it.
> 
> Sure, volunteer squads should have the same training and equipment standards as paid companies.  Beyond that, it's the EMTs, not whether they get a paycheck, that make the difference.


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## EMSLaw (Oct 13, 2009)

51 RESCUE EMT-B said:


> You cannot be 19 and drive an ambulance in the state of NJ.



You just have to have an unrestricted driver's license, as far as I know.

But fine, assume it's 21 - the same point applies.


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## SES4 (Oct 13, 2009)

DrParasite said:


> you know, this is one of those cases where I agree with BLSBoy 100%.  however, I know of several 100% paid agencies that routinely use RL&S for transporting patients that are not experiencing life threatening emergencies.  I also know of some ALS providers that say anytime they transport a patient, RL&S are to be used.  in fact, I know of one BLS crew that didn't want L&S and the ALS did, even though the patient was reportedly stable (but still warranted ALS for a workup), which resulted in a complaints being filed by both crews with their respective supervisors.  so you can't say it's just volunteers or BLS, because paid staff and ALS are just as guilty.
> haha, so that's what the M stands for.  I have seen so many ALS providers set up camp at the side of the road during a line of sight rendezvous, or just spend waaaaaay too much time on scene that I thought it was for "maintain current location."  But in all fairness, I know of many who will do all their assessment and interventions while enroute to the hospital.
> and I think you are right, 100%. But I would like expand on your statement.
> 
> ...



I concur regarding consolidation.  Some towns/cities in NJ are so small that you drive through them without even knowing you were there.  So consolidate and pay.  I think the same should go for volley fire in NJ.  

Regarding the training fund:  Personally I went through EMT school funded by the Training Fund.  Either way there is merit to having to pay for or find money some how which equates to paying for school yourself.  People tend to work harder when it's their own cash.  It is a great resource for those who can not afford to get their CEU's but I think that one should have to foot the bill for ones inital EMT-B cert.  The training fund can assist in paying for Con. Ed.

Regardless, I am well on my way to becoming an MICP and can not wait to be on the ALS side of NJ EMS!


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## EMSLaw (Oct 14, 2009)

SES4 said:


> Regardless, I am well on my way to becoming an MICP and can not wait to be on the ALS side of NJ EMS!



...that's what you think NOW!

Joking aside, though, congratulations and good luck!


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## SES4 (Oct 14, 2009)

EMSLaw said:


> ...that's what you think NOW!
> 
> Joking aside, though, congratulations and good luck!



LOL.  Nice EMSLaw  

Thanks you!


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## Jon (Oct 15, 2009)

51 RESCUE EMT-B said:


> You cannot be 19 and drive an ambulance in the state of NJ.


OK... I know NJ is a Nanny State (19 to buy Tobacco?)

Can you explain why a 19 year old couldn't drive a rig?


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## BLSBoy (Oct 15, 2009)

Jon said:


> OK... I know NJ is a Nanny State (19 to buy Tobacco?)
> 
> Can you explain why a 19 year old couldn't drive a rig?



Never heard that before. I worked with several 18 year olds who drive....


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## EMSLaw (Oct 15, 2009)

BLSBoy said:


> Never heard that before. I worked with several 18 year olds who drive....



That was my understanding as well.  I'm pretty sure I've seen numerous 18 and 19 year olds driving an ambulance.  I think for insurance reasons generally you have to hold an unrestricted (rather than GDL) license, but that's not a "legal" restriction in the true sense.


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## 51 RESCUE EMT-B (Oct 16, 2009)

Perhaps I spoke premature, I was under the impression that members under 21 were unable to operate ambulances in the state of NJ. Ultimately I suppose it is up to individual squads and insurance providers that determines the age. However my opinion concurs that I would support such a law.





Jon said:


> OK... I know NJ is a Nanny State (19 to buy Tobacco?)
> 
> Can you explain why a 19 year old couldn't drive a rig?


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## taz1890 (Nov 24, 2009)

There is no minimum age to operate any emergency vehicle in the State of NJ.  Insane...yes...but that's the way it is....


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## firecoins (Nov 24, 2009)

taz1890 said:


> There is no minimum age to operate any emergency vehicle in the State of NJ.  Insane...yes...but that's the way it is....



I am pretty you need a DL so no one under 16 can drive.  My employer has restricted drivers to 21 and over


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## taz1890 (Nov 24, 2009)

Well - of course you need a drivers license.  I was simply stating that any other age minimum set is not set by the State, but by a department or insurance carrier.


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## Silver_Star (Dec 17, 2009)

DrParasite said:


> But also don't group all volunteer agencies as one or two call a day places.  My parent's town gets about 5000 EMS calls a year (give or take a few hundred).  one squad covers the town.  nights and weekends are all volunteer, with the occasional day crew.  how many of your EMS agencies can say the same?  And before anyone asks, I wish they would put on paid staff 24/7 and bill instead of having to beg for donations.
> 
> more larger paid agencies, fewer slow volunteer agencies, equal training standards for all, fewer town boundaries restricting emergency services, closest unit goes, yeah, a man can dream.



I am paid, and a volunteer. My volunteer squad gets a few thousand calls per year.  We have a crew 24/7, we answer all of our own calls. 



EMSLaw said:


> You're going to get a lot of 19-year-old EMTs who want to drive an ambulance like they stole it.


I find that offensive. I'm 19. I drive very carefully. I have seen more people in the an older age group drive much worse than someone who is 19.


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## Silver_Star (Dec 17, 2009)

And on the note that many people think volunteer agencies have poor patient care - I have shown up on many scenes where a pt really should have gone to a hospital but refuses because they think they will be billed for the ambulance transport. 
Also I have seen much poorer patient care come from paid medical staff rather than a volunteer agency. Such as my local ER staff and many of the medics we get. the medics have left scenes where they were needed because the "patient is faking" without even doing an assessment. the medics have given out expired medication, and have been fined for it. (will they change? considering the company, probably not) 
the local er staff (and medics) hardly ever uses gloves when touching a patient, which in my opinion is a simple, but crucial thing to patient care to avoid cross contamination. If someone just touched a patient with mrsa and then touched me, I would not be a happy camper.
a paycheck means crap in terms of quality of care.


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## exodus (Dec 17, 2009)

Silver_Star said:


> And on the note that many people think volunteer agencies have poor patient care - I have shown up on many scenes where a pt really should have gone to a hospital but refuses because they think they will be billed for the ambulance transport.
> Also I have seen much poorer patient care come from paid medical staff rather than a volunteer agency. Such as my local ER staff and many of the medics we get. the medics have left scenes where they were needed because the "patient is faking" without even doing an assessment. the medics have given out expired medication, and have been fined for it. (will they change? considering the company, probably not)
> the local er staff (and medics) hardly ever uses gloves when touching a patient, which in my opinion is a simple, but crucial thing to patient care to avoid cross contamination. If someone just touched a patient with mrsa and then touched me, I would not be a happy camper.
> a paycheck means crap in terms of quality of care.




This is gonna turn into a paid vs volly debate, isn't it?  This is the bottom line for me:
If we are going to forward EMS as a profession, and expect better pay and treatment from employers, we need to get rid of working for free. In NO other profession, are people working for free. Why would an employer pay more for someone to work for them, when they can just get someone for free?  Allowing people to work for free just makes this job a joke.  Also, the cost for getting the 'education' required for EMT or Medic is WAY too cheap! Why do I say this? If we have to all pay 15-20k for our medic education, would you be inclined to do it for free? But if you think it looks cool, and a volly squad will pay for your basic if you work with them, why would you ever want to go paid?  It's stupid.


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## JPINFV (Dec 17, 2009)

Silver_Star said:


> the local er staff (and medics) hardly ever uses gloves when touching a patient, which in my opinion is a simple, but crucial thing to patient care to avoid cross contamination.



Err. Do you know what universal precautions is?


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## Silver_Star (Dec 17, 2009)

exodus said:


> This is gonna turn into a paid vs volly debate, isn't it?  This is the bottom line for me:
> If we are going to forward EMS as a profession, and expect better pay and treatment from employers, we need to get rid of working for free. In NO other profession, are people working for free. Why would an employer pay more for someone to work for them, when they can just get someone for free?  Allowing people to work for free just makes this job a joke.  Also, the cost for getting the 'education' required for EMT or Medic is WAY too cheap! Why do I say this? If we have to all pay 15-20k for our medic education, would you be inclined to do it for free? But if you think it looks cool, and a volly squad will pay for your basic if you work with them, why would you ever want to go paid?  It's stupid.



the education of an emt-b is also a joke. i didn't learn anything new that i hadn't already known. i recall many people being being pushed through the course because they became friendly with the lead instructor.


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## Silver_Star (Dec 17, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> Err. Do you know what universal precautions is?



Yes, I do. Not every one seems to use them.


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## JPINFV (Dec 17, 2009)

Silver_Star said:


> Yes, I do. Not every one seems to use them.


Ok, then. What does universal precautions say about intact skin and sweat?


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## Silver_Star (Dec 17, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> Ok, then. What does universal precautions say about intact skin and sweat?



unless theres blood, it doesnt apply.

unless you've misunderstood what i said, let me make it a little more clear. i have watched paid medical professionals not use gloves when they really should have, when universal precautions did apply to the situtation.


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## JPINFV (Dec 17, 2009)

Close enough. So, what again, is the problem with tending to patients without gloves again?


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## Silver_Star (Dec 17, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> Close enough. So, what again, is the problem with tending to patients without gloves again?



when theres blood and icky things on them, or your poking them with a needle and making blood come out of them, its a good idea to use gloves instead of going bare handed.


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## EMSLaw (Dec 17, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> Close enough. So, what again, is the problem with tending to patients without gloves again?



Because, at least in EMS, the standard is now body substance isolation, which treats all bodily fluids, not just blood and semen (as in universal precautions), as potentially infectious.


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## Trauma's Mistress (Dec 28, 2009)

Hello, 

  I dont really have an issue  with NJ.  Except  right now. I am having a bit of a time  getting into a paid squad.   I keep calling my  nearest  paid  squad - GTEMS and  I  get no answer  no answer, and I dont want to just go down there, I am sure they are busy .  I used to be an  emt  back in 03, but  worked  for a hospital as an ER tech, and now  I  work for  a different hospital as a manager of the transport dept (in house) and   in doing all of this  my lisc  expired. I went thru  the class  -again ! lol     and  I passed again   But   I am trying to get on the streets.  I  am craving getting out there. Its where  I belong. I am tired of sitting behind a desk lol.  

 Tips? places to apply ?   Anyone  ? 

  I posted this here, cause the   title of the thread had  NJ in it, so instead of making a new one, i  would  just  put it here 

   Thanks


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## DrParasite (Dec 28, 2009)

Getting on a paid squad is often more about networking than actually applying.  

sometimes you can email them.  Assuming you mean Glouster Twp EMS, try _**removed email address**_ fill out the application here http://gtems.org/employment/application.html

if you mean another place, check out their website.  some have online applications or contact us links that can direct you to the appropriate person.

but don't forget something getting on can be about knowing who to ask for an application, who handles the hiring, and who to go to to get hired.  I applied for a job with a certain paid squad about 3 years ago.  I had a decent resume, about 7 years experience, and was working FT for a hospital based EMS agency.  I interviewed with their admin and supervisors, met some of their people, and generally liked them and they liked me.  They didn't hire me.  One of my buddies is now a supervisor there, and I asked him to check if he could find why I wasn't hired. All my app said was not hired, no reason given.

Every place since that I have applied for with one exception, including my current FT job, I have either known someone or known some people who worked here prior, and have gotten them.  This field is all about networking and meeting people, that's the best advise I can give you.  plus, remember EMS is a small circle, and with everyone knowing EVERYONE, your past will follow up, esp if you stay in the same local area.


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## BLSBoy (Dec 28, 2009)

PM me. I might be able to help.


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## Trauma's Mistress (Dec 28, 2009)

DrParasite said:


> Getting on a paid squad is often more about networking than actually applying.
> 
> sometimes you can email them.  Assuming you mean Glouster Twp EMS, try **removed email address** fill out the application here http://gtems.org/employment/application.html
> 
> ...



 DR P 

 Thanks so much  for  your reply.    and how did you know it was  gtems?  
 yes, it  was.  Its  crazy    a few months ago  I went up there to  start vollying to get my feet wet. i wanted to go thru school again and get ym  cert back.  well my  job - being a transport  mgr  at a hospital keeps me way to busy and it just slipped. I   have gone thru school,and now I am  trying to get hired there,but  also  would love to volly there too since they have both, 

 the sad thing is,  I have done both. I have called,  I have emailed, I have   done the online app too.  I just  think Im going to have to go down there,. 
 of you dont mind?  could you tell me in a private  message where you work ? or where you went  or any good places to go?   
 Thanks  again 

 Jenn


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## Jon (Jan 3, 2010)

Silver_Star said:


> when theres blood and icky things on them, or your poking them with a needle and making blood come out of them, its a good idea to use gloves instead of going bare handed.



True. That said, I see very little of this. And LOTS of EMT's wearing 1 set of gloves for the ENTIRE call... driving to the hospital, remaking the stretcher, everything. I have MUCH more of an issue with this, because it happens more.

Jon


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## JPINFV (Jan 3, 2010)

Silver_Star said:


> when theres blood and icky things on them, or your poking them with a needle and making blood come out of them, its a good idea to use gloves instead of going bare handed.


If that's the case, then yes... they need to be wearing gloves. However not all patients need gloves.


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