# Why does EMT job pay so little money?



## Jenny (Aug 21, 2008)

I Work for a private company and the pay is horrible not only in this company but in every other. At this point im wondering why even study this if a job at Old Navy pays the same maybe even more? Is this pay just a starting point and then it gets a lot better or does it stay this way. Im located in New York City and would really like some opinions on this. 

Thanks alot,

Jenny


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## Blacke00 (Aug 21, 2008)

Not that I have any kind of experience, but from what I've read it's that way everywhere. It's when you move on to Paramedic, and maybe get other advanced certifications that the money gets better...

EMS as a whole deserves alot more respect in my opinion...


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## Onceamedic (Aug 21, 2008)

Pretty hard to get more money for a position when its so easy to get into and so many people are willing to do it for free.


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## John E (Aug 21, 2008)

*If you want to make more money...*

you can either pick a career that pays more or make yourself worth more. Your choice.

There are thousands of EMT students either currently or soon to be enrolled in classes across the country. A majority of them will graduate, some will enter the work force, enough of them will to make it a buyer's market when it comes to hiring. You can either complain about it or do something to make yourself more valuable. Also your choice.

Get a minimum amount of experience and then either get more schooling or find a better job or both. Again, your choice.

If anyone told you that you'd be making good money working for a private ambulance company as an entry level EMT, they were lying.

John E


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## KEVD18 (Aug 21, 2008)

the level of education the basic emt receives doesnt warrant better money. it doesnt matter how hard the job is, how long the hours are, or the crappy work conditions. the bottom line is training and education. basics make more than cfr. intermediates make more than basics. medics make more than i's and so on right up to the chief of medicine. you want to make money? advance your level of education.


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## BossyCow (Aug 21, 2008)

The general rule for employment is as follows:
Employers need to pay their employees just enough to keep them from quitting, while an employee works just hard enough to keep from being fired.


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## BEorP (Aug 21, 2008)

Blacke00 said:


> Not that I have any kind of experience, but from what I've read it's that way everywhere. It's when you move on to Paramedic, and maybe get other advanced certifications that the money gets better...
> 
> EMS as a whole deserves alot more respect in my opinion...



If you want "alot more respect" maybe you should get a lot more education first.

If you want money while working EMS, come to Ontario, get an education, and you'll be paid accordingly.


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## Blacke00 (Aug 21, 2008)

BEorP said:


> If you want "alot more respect" maybe you should get a lot more education first.
> 
> If you want money while working EMS, come to Ontario, get an education, and you'll be paid accordingly.



Step#1 starts August 26th  =)

Maybe this is another topic, and probably been discussed before, but...

Is it true that private companies (Rural/Metro, etc) will pay for an EMT to go to Paramedic schooling? Or is it more like the tuition reimbursement that you see at most companies?


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## BossyCow (Aug 21, 2008)

Blacke00 said:


> Step#1 starts August 26th  =)
> 
> Maybe this is another topic, and probably been discussed before, but...
> 
> Is it true that private companies (Rural/Metro, etc) will pay for an EMT to go to Paramedic schooling? Or is it more like the tuition reimbursement that you see at most companies?



I think it depends on how many out of work or looking for work paramedics there are in your area. If there's a glut on the market, the company is going to be less likely to pay your way. Around here its only done when the hiring pool is getting shallow.


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## Blacke00 (Aug 21, 2008)

BossyCow said:


> I think it depends on how many out of work or looking for work paramedics there are in your area. If there's a glut on the market, the company is going to be less likely to pay your way. Around here its only done when the hiring pool is getting shallow.



This is a year ago...I haven't seen anything recently though.

http://www.volunteertv.com/news/headlines/8443572.html


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## mycrofft (Aug 21, 2008)

*I remember being shocked to find supermarket sweepers made more than I.*

Hiring pool in metro areas is bottomless. People will do it for free. Treat it like acting, keep your day job, build your "creds" working part time or vollie plus upstepping your education. Get letters of reccomendation as you go (very flattering to be asked to write those!).
Or...you might discover part time or vollie is enough and a "regular" day job meets your mundane needs just fine.


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## stephenrb81 (Aug 21, 2008)

Blacke00 said:


> Step#1 starts August 26th  =)
> 
> Maybe this is another topic, and probably been discussed before, but...
> 
> Is it true that private companies (Rural/Metro, etc) will pay for an EMT to go to Paramedic schooling? Or is it more like the tuition reimbursement that you see at most companies?



In many areas it is mostly reimbursement since there is no *guarantee* that a student will obtain any certification/license (i.e. fail course, fail registry, etc...).

I obtain my student loans for the Paramedic program (In missouri they are guaranteed regardless of credit as long as you do not have a defaulted student loan, not sure how other states work).  Once I have a state paramedic license, the service I work for will reimburse me the tuition if I choose to sign a contract (I work for a county ambulance district)


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## daedalus (Aug 21, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> the level of education the basic emt receives doesnt warrant better money. it doesnt matter how hard the job is, how long the hours are, or the crappy work conditions. the bottom line is training and education. basics make more than cfr. intermediates make more than basics. medics make more than i's and so on right up to the chief of medicine. you want to make money? advance your level of education.



Your wrong. I want to make more money than an In and Out employee (fast food). They start their employees at 10/hour. They get three days of training. I had six months of training. I deserve more money. I didnt say that EMT is an advanced medical provider, as all of you here know I believe differently. But economically, EMTs and Medics deserve more. Medics make 11/hour at my company. I make 10.

No, I will not leave the profession. I will fight for better. Its this type of thinking that limits us all. I spent 600 on EMT, 100 on BCLS, and payed registration fees for National Registry, and payed the state for my card. After all that, I payed the CIty of Los Angles for a "permit" to be hired as an EMT in their city (160.00). I payed over a grand and spent time training for my job, and I will demand more compensation that a fast food employee who got payed to attend their three day training.


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## MAC4NH (Aug 21, 2008)

SoCal has been on the low end of the pay scale vs. cost of living ratio for a long time.  In 1988, I made about $5.50/hr out there and that was considered good (minimum wage was somewhere around $5.25 at the time).  I believe the reason at that time was that all the aspiring firefighters had to work as EMT's before they would be considered so the companies were able to exploit the situation.  I haven't been around that system for twenty years so I don't know why it continues.


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## TheMowingMonk (Aug 22, 2008)

As its been stated before, it continues because we are a dime a dozen, there are tons of emts out there, so untill the numbers go down and there is actually a demand for emts, we will get paid low unfortunatly


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## VentMedic (Aug 22, 2008)

daedalus said:


> Your wrong. I want to make more money than an In and Out employee (fast food). They start their employees at 10/hour. They get three days of training. *I had six months of training*. I deserve more money. I didnt say that EMT is an advanced medical provider, as all of you here know I believe differently. But economically, EMTs and Medics deserve more. Medics make 11/hour at my company. I make 10.



This is where the use of college credit hours would be handy and not "hours of training".   Since the EMT-B is 110 hours, some take a 3 week crash course and some stretch it out to 6 months.   There is little to actually compare as a standard except for minimum hours required.  There are no mandates that a college A&P class or extra training be taken as in other health care professions unless it is has some state specific extras for additional skills.   If discussing this with people who work for insurance and legislators, this could become similar to the joke "it took you 8 years to finish high school?"   

College degrees and credits are a nationally accepted language for "training" in the professional world.   Even the skilled labor schools such as carpentry, welding and plumbing have discovered this and have translated their hours of training into some form of certificate or degree (college or private career school) with measurable credit hours and their field experience is now an internship.  

Entering a profession in the medical field is a choice.  EMT-B should only be entry level.  Just like the fast food worker, 3 days is just entry level.  They can choose to accept more responsibility and get additional training.  If they want to move up the cooperate ladder, they can get an MBA and make 7 digits.  They have that choice.  An EMT-B also has that choice to move on to EMT-P, FF or administration.  If it is your chosen profession, you should already recognize its limitations and either accept or educate yourself to make a difference for the profession.


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## RESQ_5_1 (Aug 22, 2008)

I worked in L.A. County when I first became an EMT-B. I worked for AMR and made $7.80/hr. Shortly after, I moved to Alberta. I worked as an EMR (EMT-B equivelant) in the oilpatch while I worked towards my EMT equivelancy. I made $175/day.

Now, I have my EMT registration and I work for a regional station. I currently make almost $21/hr. Along with available OT, my gross pay comes out to around $75,000/yr.  That's plenty for me. I'm 41 and don't really have the finances or time to get my EMT-P (2 years of training practicums included). 

By the way, I started at $17.80/hr one year ago. We have the advantage of actually having a union. Plus, because of the way the healthcare sytem works, we are not in a situation where the companies income is largely affected by those who don't pay their bills.

The major downside to Companies in the US is, you bill directly for services rendered. If people don't pay their bills, the ambulance co. makes no money. If the ambulance makes no money, then the staff makes no money, etc, etc.


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## TransportJockey (Aug 22, 2008)

Canada is looking better and better


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## RESQ_5_1 (Aug 22, 2008)

I live and work in Northern Alberta. The winter gets down to -40C at times. Average is around -30ish. However, we currently have 2 full time positions open. And we have some really sweet high-vis yellow jackets. And nothing gets your blood pumping like being on the side of the road, in knee deep snow, with a windchill of around -46. And that's before the Medevac helicopter gets on scene and starts blowing everything around. Fun, fun, fun.


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## daedalus (Aug 22, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> This is where the use of college credit hours would be handy and not "hours of training".   Since the EMT-B is 110 hours, some take a 3 week crash course and some stretch it out to 6 months.   There is little to actually compare as a standard except for minimum hours required.  There are no mandates that a college A&P class or extra training be taken as in other health care professions unless it is has some state specific extras for additional skills.   If discussing this with people who work for insurance and legislators, this could become similar to the joke "it took you 8 years to finish high school?"
> 
> College degrees and credits are a nationally accepted language for "training" in the professional world.   Even the skilled labor schools such as carpentry, welding and plumbing have discovered this and have translated their hours of training into some form of certificate or degree (college or private career school) with measurable credit hours and their field experience is now an internship.
> 
> Entering a profession in the medical field is a choice.  EMT-B should only be entry level.  Just like the fast food worker, 3 days is just entry level.  They can choose to accept more responsibility and get additional training.  If they want to move up the cooperate ladder, they can get an MBA and make 7 digits.  They have that choice.  An EMT-B also has that choice to move on to EMT-P, FF or administration.  If it is your chosen profession, you should already recognize its limitations and either accept or educate yourself to make a difference for the profession.


I agree with you to a point. There is little economic benefit for anyone in southern california to go to paramedic school, as they only make a dollar more an hour than I do as an EMT. Although I may have chose this profession, that does not mean I cannot fight to make a decent living as well. I am starting paramedic school next fall, and I certainly do it because I want to, but their will be a point in my life where a few bucks more than minimum wage ( 8/hr in California) just will not cut it anymore and I will have to leave EMS. To quote someone on JEMS, sometimes the money has to come first. Oh, and BTW, there is a massive demand for EMTs in LA County, and an even larger demand for paramedics.


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## KEVD18 (Aug 22, 2008)

daedalus said:


> Your wrong. I want to make more money than an In and Out employee (fast food). They start their employees at 10/hour. They get three days of training. I had six months of training. I deserve more money. I didnt say that EMT is an advanced medical provider, as all of you here know I believe differently. But economically, EMTs and Medics deserve more. Medics make 11/hour at my company. I make 10.
> 
> No, I will not leave the profession. I will fight for better. Its this type of thinking that limits us all. I spent 600 on EMT, 100 on BCLS, and payed registration fees for National Registry, and payed the state for my card. After all that, I payed the CIty of Los Angles for a "permit" to be hired as an EMT in their city (160.00). I payed over a grand and spent time training for my job, and I will demand more compensation that a fast food employee who got payed to attend their three day training.



you can demands anything you want. more money, a new station, visually striking sunsets every day. but your not going to get it. you have no bargaining power. you a basic emt in california. theres 5,000 other guys that will slide right into your job and not complain. you want more money, earn it. get your medic. get on a fire dept or a chopper. go to nursing school. do something that makes you worth more money and you'll get it.

the reason they pay in and out better than you is desire. nobody actually wants to flip burgers for a living so they have to pay them fairly well. but some people cant get a better job for whatever reason, so they do what they have to do to survive. its not so in ems. people are lined up ready to take an entry level job, work at it for a while until they are ready to advance to the next level.


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## upstateemt (Aug 22, 2008)

The pay for both EMT's and Paramedics in my area sucks (Upstate Rural NY).   I don't know how anyone makes a "living" doing it.  I am an RN by day (to pay the bills) and an EMT-CC at night because I like doing it. 

I've been asked to go to Medic School but until the pay for a Medic is comparable to an RN I can't afford to do it.


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## John E (Aug 22, 2008)

*Real demand vs alleged demand...*

Stating that there is a real demand for EMTs and Paramedics in SoCal is partly true. There are certainly plenty of entry level jobs available.

But the so called laws of supply and demand don't apply here.

Not when local schools are churning out EMTs at a record rate as they are.

Not when there are people who will work for 8 bucks an hour and try to make up their low pay with overtime...? Someday all those EMTs will figure out that their are only so many hours in a week no matter what kind of lies the person recruiting claims.

Not when private companies can post an ad on Craigslist and get dozens of applicants willing to work for peanuts just so they can get to work on an ambulance.

Not when people have the misguided notion that by risking their own lives, ie, driving code 3 thru traffic, confronting things like MRSA, HIV, etc, for crappy wages that they're somehow paying their dues and gaining valuable experience to be used for some imaginary future job.

Working for a private ambulance company is the worst job in EMS, doesn't matter if you went to a community college for 6 months or a diploma mill for 3 weeks, you're still trying to take a crappy entry level job and making it   into a career, ain't gonna happen. Not in L.A., not anywhere.

As for paramedics only making a dollar more per hour, maybe where you work but there are plenty of places where a paramedic makes a helluva lot more than that. You've just got to open your parameters up and quit thinking that a private ambulance company is gonna be the place to make your career. The only people making a decent living at a private company are the owners. The rest are either getting by or they have a very warped sense of what making a living is all about. 

John E


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## daedalus (Aug 22, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> you can demands anything you want. more money, a new station, visually striking sunsets every day. but your not going to get it. you have no bargaining power. you a basic emt in california. theres 5,000 other guys that will slide right into your job and not complain. you want more money, earn it. get your medic. get on a fire dept or a chopper. go to nursing school. do something that makes you worth more money and you'll get it.
> 
> the reason they pay in and out better than you is desire. nobody actually wants to flip burgers for a living so they have to pay them fairly well. but some people cant get a better job for whatever reason, so they do what they have to do to survive. its not so in ems. people are lined up ready to take an entry level job, work at it for a while until they are ready to advance to the next level.


Again, I feel your logic is flawed. A medic in southern california, on average, makes 1-3 dollars more an hour than I do. All of us, at every level of prehospital provider, including CCT nurses, are not payed fairly.

Actually, if those that came before us did not demand and fight, the world would be a much different place. Women might still not be able to vote, and slaves might still exist in the United States as a common practice. I do not want to get philosophical, but my point is not refuted by your post.

You can explain your reasoning behind our wages, however I will be working to move us all forward with more education and better pay. I prefer not to sit around.


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## Onceamedic (Aug 22, 2008)

daedalus said:


> ...I will be working to move us all forward with more education and better pay. I prefer not to sit around.



That I can wholeheartedly agree with.


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## JPINFV (Aug 22, 2008)

John E said:


> But the so called laws of supply and demand don't apply here.



Actually, the law of supply and demand is working just as it should. The demand for employees is much lower than the number of employees available for the wages being offered. Companies shouldn't be paying their employees more than they value them at (note: things such as decreasing employee turnover goes into that calculation). Similarly, employees should value their time and sell their time (wages) appropriately. Sadly, most employees fail at either fighting for their own worth or judging what they're true value in the market is. Just because one side is failing at holding up their end at the bargaining table doesn't mean that things like the market place or supply and demand aren't working.


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## KEVD18 (Aug 22, 2008)

i fully support you while you fight the good fight. i just dont expect anything to change.


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## BossyCow (Aug 22, 2008)

John E said:


> Stating that there is a real demand for EMTs and Paramedics in SoCal is partly true. There are certainly plenty of entry level jobs available.
> 
> But the so called laws of supply and demand don't apply here.
> 
> John E



Actually this is exactly the laws of supply and demand. If they are churning out new EMTs all the time, then the demand for new fresh emts has a huge supply.


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## KEVD18 (Aug 22, 2008)

you also have to consider if there is a surplus of emts looking for work, you dont have to do much to keep your staff happy. theres a hundred guys willing to take that job and get a start in the business. thats what i was originally saying. if the opposite is true, you have some bargaining power. but when you're on the wrong side of the equation, its a fruitless battle.


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## John E (Aug 22, 2008)

*Not really...*

if the "rules" about supply and demand held true, the high demand would mean higher wages and better working conditions. The reverse is true in SoCal. The demand is high and the supply is even higher with schools churning out thousands of EMT grads who are willing to work for artificially low wages in order to either fill some sort of personal need or to gain experience, etc.

What's actually happening is a devaluation of employees. The demand is high because after a few months of working for sub-standard wages, people leave to go work at In and Out or elsewhere. Those that stay with it either accept that they are at the bottom of the wage chain and convince themselves that they're doing it for the good of humanity or they figure out how to make more money by becoming an FTO or a supervisor before they finally get so burned out and pissed off about their low wages that they leave the field all together.

If the standards for EMT education and certification were raised and the private ambulance companies were actually held to some better standards, the wages would increase, patient care would improve and ambulance based EMS work could become an actual career. That ain't gonna happen and no amount of *****ing on a web forum with noble ideas about abolishing slavery  is gonna change it.

John E


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## JPINFV (Aug 22, 2008)

John E said:


> if the "rules" about supply and demand held true, the high demand would mean higher wages and better working conditions. The reverse is true in SoCal. *The demand is high and the supply is even higher* with schools churning out thousands of EMT grads who are willing to work for artificially low wages in order to either fill some sort of personal need or to gain experience, etc.



Relatively speaking, supply is higher then demand. Hence the power is with the companies and not the employer. This won't change a bit in So Cal as long as:

1. Schools keep spitting out EMT-Bs
1.a: This won't change as long as educational requirements (Minimum is 110 hours. The difference between 110 and even 130 isn't anything to wright home about. The calendar day length (2 weeks, 4 months, etc) is not important) remain low. 

2. Fire Based EMS remains which essentially requires every fire fighter to be a paramedic and most (if not all) paramedic schools require time as an EMT-B. Why should people trying to get into the fire service care about EMS if the only thing they want out of EMS levels and experience is a few extra points on their fire service application?


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## BEorP (Aug 23, 2008)

The bottom line is that you (as a profession/occupation) need more education if you want more money. What more really needs to be said?


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## daedalus (Aug 23, 2008)

BEorP said:


> The bottom line is that you (as a profession/occupation) need more education if you want more money. What more really needs to be said?


A lot more. When a Paramedic has worked hard for their education, has an two year degree from ventura college, and makes eleven bucks an hour? Things need to change.

Part of what is said about the fire service in SoCal is correct. Private companies can pay their paramedics :censored::censored::censored::censored: because they know they are just using the agency as a stepping stone to fire.


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## BEorP (Aug 23, 2008)

daedalus said:


> A lot more. When a Paramedic has worked hard for their education, has an two year degree from ventura college, and makes eleven bucks an hour? Things need to change.
> 
> Part of what is said about the fire service in SoCal is correct. Private companies can pay their paramedics :censored::censored::censored::censored: because they know they are just using the agency as a stepping stone to fire.



Have you as a profession made a two year degree mandatory?


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## VentMedic (Aug 23, 2008)

daedalus said:


> A lot more. When a Paramedic has worked hard for their education, has an two year degree from ventura college, and makes eleven bucks an hour? Things need to change.


 
Unfortunately, that Paramedic will still be judged by the weakest link if there are no established standards for education other than the minimum number of "hours" required. The 3 month medic mill graduate will still be what legislators and companies see. 

So far, I believe only Oregon has a mandatory 2 year degree for Paramedic.

Not too long ago an EMS agency in Tennessee announced that it was requiring their EMT-Ps to have a degree and the pay was increased. This has been tried in other areas and challenged if it is not a national or state requirement for licensure. Even the statement "degree preferred" in the job description can get problems from various unions and those who are frightened they may also have to get an education. This rarely holds true in other professions such as nursing and RT. They can and do recommend higher education levels for hire. 

Over 25 years ago before RT even required an Associates degree for national testing, it was known that if you wanted to work critical care or get a job with some hospitals, you had to have a degree. Thus, when it was finally anounced in 2002 that a degree was going to be mandatory for testing, most students were already in degree programs and most practitioners working in the profession already had degrees. Now, after the degree requirement has been established, the wages are starting to trend upward. We also have some hospitals that pay better than others but now there is more power for reimbursement and bargaining power when the legislative or hospital wage issues come up. The profession is now looking at raising the national level to Bachelors since many RTs did go that option as nursing did and obtain their B.S. in RT or Cardiopulmonary. With the additional education requirements, bills are also being presented in the legislature to get more reimbursement in some specialty areas of the profession which will benefit the RRT later.

There is also a difference in the way RT perceives other professions. RTs don't waste time trying to be "like" another profession and comparing "skills". They have focused on getting their profession recognized for what it is. Paramedics have tried to compare themselves, especially with skills, and be "like" other professions instead of focusing establishing their own identity. This is even while saying "we're so different and special".


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## John E (Aug 23, 2008)

*You hit...*

it right on it's little head.

Your observations are spot on Ventmedic.

As an occasional RT student, picking up classes when possible and available, one of things that attracted me was the fact that RT is considered and treated as a true profession.

I've posted before about the correlation between higher salaries for RT's and RN's and mandatory increased education, it's a shame that EMS fails to require more if it's practitioners.

John E.


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## John E (Aug 23, 2008)

*just one more thing...*

Why would anyone go thru a 2 year community college program, ie, the example given of Ventura College, and then accept a job that only pays $11.00  per hour? 

I wouldn't and don't work as an EMT-1 for $11.00 an hour. 

Anyone who takes these jobs paying substandard wages needs to take a real hard look at what they're doing and where they're going.

John E.


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## VentMedic (Aug 23, 2008)

Good points John but some do hope the EMS profession will catch up.   My pay for being an EMT-P and RRT were equally very little and that was with having a degree in both.   It took several years before the wage at my RRT job almost doubled my EMT-P wage but the national standard of the degree definitely helped.   Having a Masters degree does little for my wage as an EMT-P unless I'm working in education or administration.  It was a requirement for my RRT job to be part of research projects as well as being an educator. 

The Paramedic job description for my Flight job still says High School diploma or equivalent and a Paramedic certificate with licensure from the state.  My senority or years of experience guide my wage in EMS.   I make the same as someone with a 3 month medic mill cert  who hasn't set foot in a classroom in 30 years.


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## Sasha (Aug 23, 2008)

John E said:


> Why would anyone go thru a 2 year community college program, ie, the example given of Ventura College, and then accept a job that only pays $11.00  per hour?
> 
> I wouldn't and don't work as an EMT-1 for $11.00 an hour.
> 
> ...



11/hr? I wish. I make a  dollar under that. What am I doing? Getting my career started and established in health care. Where am I going? To put myself through nursing school. My ultimate goal is a nurse in the peace corps, which pay is even less, last I heard you got like 6,000 when you were done with your time. Why would I ever consider it, and why do EMTs and Medics take such a crappy wage?

 Because I love what I do. I love health care, I love helping people, I love the whole kit and kaboodle. I would rather get paid crap for something I love to do then a whole heck of a lot of money doing what I dont want to do.


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## John E (Aug 23, 2008)

*hmmm....*

Loving what you do is great, I really enjoy what I do to, I also really enjoy being able to keep a roof over my head, pay for medical insurance,keep 2 kids housed and fed, keep 2 rescued dogs housed and fed, take a vacation every now and again, you know, the normal stuff that other people who work as health care professionals do. I also don't define myself by what I do for a living, as I notice a lot of people that work for substandard wages do when trying to justify why they let companies take advantage of them.

Problem with using the loving what you do as your primary means of evaluating a job is that there are people who will take advantage of that love you have of helping others and use it to justify paying substandard wages, hard to believe I know but it's true.

Expecting people to live under the poverty level cause they love what they do is simply wrong. In the process of helping others, you're hurting yourself and the entire health care/EMS profession by working for substandard wages.

Taking a low paying job while still in training/school is one thing, accepting less than livable wages once you've moved into the actual field of work is a whole nuther thing.

John E


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## Ridryder911 (Aug 23, 2008)

What most in EMS do not understands is job or professional comparisons. Do we in EMS really justify having a decent salary?  Do our so called technicians really deserve much more than a minimum wage? 

If so.. justify it.


The only way things will ever change is not by ranting and raving. Rather it must be by proving the payers (such as Medicare, Insurance Corporations) that we our professionals and do deserve higher compensation in reimbursement. _ *If the money does not come in; then it can't go out! *_ 

Now, let's listen in at the Medicare reimbursement and justification meeting.  

EMS: You've got to help us! We need more money!!!!

Medicare: _Okay why?_

EMS:_ Well... uh, it costs more to operate the trucks, and our people get poor salaries._ 

Medicare: _Okay, we acknowledge that fuel is higher. We will give you a higher mileage rate. Now, let's review your personal._ 
_How long does take to be an EMT?_

EMS: From 2 weeks to 16 weeks. Usually about 150 hr classroom and around 40 hours or so clinical time. 

Medicare: _Okay, so about or around < than 1 semester in length ? Do they perform any invasive or diagnostic skills that requires them to be a specialty_. 

EMS: Yes & No. Yes, about 1 semester and no; most states does not allow any special diagnostic capability. 

Medicare:_ So what is it that you really do that is special to recieve additional payment?_

EMS: We stabilize enough for transport, apply oxygen, take vital signs, control and banadage wounds, splint when necessary. 

Medicare:_ No med's enroute, no special monitoring, no in-depth care, just basically transport? _

EMS; Yes, of course those are for emergency responses. Many of our transports are non-emergency. The only care needed is moving and observation. 

Medicare: _Basiclly a taxi ride? Is there a high demand and shortage for EMT's to justify increased payments, so one needs to recruit?_

EMS: Yes, unfortunately most of the work is only transport. Uh... well, actually we have an over abundance of EMT's. Usually there is up to 75-88% over saturation of EMT's every 16 weeks. In fact many can't even find places to volunteer. 

Medicare: _I'm sorry, I was not listening. I have 300 other agencies requesting increased payment structures as well. Oh, yeah they also have a shortage, degrees, and without their special skills that treatment cannnot be performed. 

Uhh... Next...._

I am all in favor of raising the wages. It would only benefit me, the system and patient care. Yet, to do so we do more than lip service. 

Again, I ask how many are really involved in Lesigilation and Political changes for EMS? Even more, how many are supportive of EMS professional associations promoting higher reimbursement rates? 

Have you really done anything or alike the other 98% or so.. just complained about things and wished they were different. 

There is a reason other medical professions get paid more... they worked for it. 

R/r 911


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## rhan101277 (Aug 23, 2008)

What is a RT? Radiology Tech?

I wanted to say that I started out in the telecom industry making $12.96/hr. after 10 years experience I now make in the low $20,s/hr.  It it possible for this kind of advancement being a Paramedic?


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## TheMowingMonk (Aug 23, 2008)

From my freimds that are medics from what they tell me they make about 28 to 32 an hour depending on their senority at their companies


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## MMiz (Aug 23, 2008)

When I first starting working as an EMT-B in the Detroit area, I made about $8.75 an hour.  How did they get away with paying me and so many others so little?

We also need to put this in perspective.  If an EMT-Basic works only five days a week, and works a typical 12 hour shift, then they make $2,450 a month before taxes.

1.  Lets be honest, we're not exactly Doctors.  We have anywhere between 100-300 hours of training, which is only twice that of a lifeguard.  An EMT-Basic is an entry level position.
2.  Lack of Investment - In order to get my BA degree I paid about $60,000+ in college loans and expenses.  How much did your EMT-Basic program cost?
3.  Endless Supply - There is no EMT-Basic shortage out there.
4.  Step Above What? - You'll find that many of the big ambulance services run in-house EMT-Basic programs.  Their attitude is that *anyone* can be trained as an EMT, as long as they provide minimal effort.
5.  State of Healthcare - Lets be honest, no one makes it big running an ambulance service.  Payments and reimbursements are horrible.  Even in one of the wealthiest counties in the nation we could only expect 60% of our patients to pay.
6.  Public Image - Firefighters make far more than we do, and for many years only had to deal with fires.  Yeah, how many true fires does a busy unit see a week?  I think that Cleveland Fire's busiest station sees one true fire a week, and the rest are medical calls or false alarms.  They get away being paid so much more because their public image is far stronger than that of EMS.
7.  Length of Service - EMS is relatively new compared to other professions.
8.  Because it Works - When there is a massive shortage of available EMTs and Paramedics you'll see a sharp increase in pay and benefits.


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## VentMedic (Aug 23, 2008)

rhan101277 said:


> What is a RT? Radiology Tech?


 
RT can be short for Respiratory Therapy or it can also be Radiology Technologist. My credential is RRT which is Registered Respiratory Therapist.

Either way, the progression of Radiology and Respiratory professionals have been similar. Both professions have national certification and require at least a 2 year college degree with Bachelors and Masters degrees available. For educators, a Masters or higher is usually required depending on the type of college.




rhan101277 said:


> I wanted to say that I started out in the telecom industry making $12.96/hr. after 10 years experience I now make in the low $20,s/hr. It it possible for this kind of advancement being a Paramedic?


 
Over 10 years, it could be possible depending on the service you work for. In Florida, several small ambulance service areas have been taken over by Fire Departments. If their employees are able to complete the requirements to be a FF, then their pay will probably be more than what they were making with the private company. If they don't meet the requirements, then they will have to find alternative employment.

There are county systems that do offer pay increases from both years with the company and with periodic cost of living increases.


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## VentMedic (Aug 23, 2008)

MMiz said:


> 6. Public Image - Firefighters make far more than we do, and for many years only had to deal with fires. Yeah, how many true fires does a busy unit see a week? I think that Cleveland Fire's busiest station sees one true fire a week, and the rest are medical calls or false alarms. They get away being paid so much more because their public image is far stronger than that of EMS.
> 7. Length of Service - EMS is relatively new compared to other professions.


 
There are areas such as in California during the Summer that you could not pay me enough to be a FF. But then, in San Francisco you have FFs making $150,000 easily and able to work 19 24-hour shifts. This recent news item have led comments as to the job being too easy that one can work all those days or if public safety is at risk from over tired FFs. 

EMS is now over 40 years old. I've been an EMT(1978) and Paramedic(1979) for 30 years . Respiratory was just getting recognized in 1986 when I got my RRT license in Florida. This was actually the first time a license was offered for the profession in Florida. The same goes for many of the allied health professions. Some, including Respiratory and Radiology, were OJT (on the job trained). Radiation Therapy and Nuclear Med Technicians are also relatively new and have come about with advancing technology. They, too, are now requiring advanced education.


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## MMiz (Aug 23, 2008)

Not to get off topic, but the RT is everyone's hero during a code in the hospital.  They can't page you fast enough.  In my experience the RT is an extraordinarily highly trained and specialized field.  You do a few things unbelievable well, and also have the comprehensive knowledge to back it up.

Where do you find that in EMS?

In teaching we always argue whether we should be briefly teaching 100 topics or doing a phenomenal job of covering 10 topics in-depth.  The EMT and Paramedic seems to be knowledgeable of many things, but master of few.


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## VentMedic (Aug 23, 2008)

I got into Respiratory Therapy after driving for specialty teams and also by watching them work in the ED. As an EMT or Paramedic, you soon realize there is just so much you can do with the equipment at hand. While those first few minutes you spend with a patient to keep them alive until you get to the ED are the first and one very important link, there is more to come. Even 30 years ago, I was amazed by what magic CPAP could do for CHF. Doing transport with a child and a relative large ventilator (SERVO 900), compared to transport models today, strapped to an adult back board just amazed me. The transport team also did flights to the islands and South America. 

RRTs do now have knowledge of many aspects of medicine since the Cardiopulmary system affects everything as does the medications RRTs can give. But, yes, the airway is their specialty. I've always prided myself as being one of the best intubators in the field but I got a serious attitude adjustment in RT school even from the OJTs of the time. I also found that the techniques and caution factors to prevent injury that I learned as an RRT could be used in the field and not take any more time. 

Those that also believe they have taken a college level A&P class with the little text books that are designed for Paramedic classes are fooling themselves. This includes the coloring book which is only an adjunct teaching tool in other professions. 

I also got into Respiratory Therapy after an ambulance accident that separated my shoulder and my patient died at scene. I was only 23 y/o but I realized then what some of the old timers (those my age now - almost 48) were always concerned about...disability. I made a full recovery but still started expanding my education to have both more skills and knowledge as well as a backup plan. Those that believe they can go into some of the healthcare professions after an injury may find it is not that easy as there are lifting and standing requirements in almost all professions. However, if you already have the education, you may be able to get into some office or research. Even if you get a Bachelors degree in one of the sciences and not RN or RRT, you will still have something to work with. *MMiz* could probably give a long list of the advantages of higher education even if the jobs you find with it are not always well paying. You still have choices. 

I've had a long career as a Paramedic because I realized the strengths and weaknesses of the profession early. I also left ground EMS for Specialty transport and Flight. I chose to do this after having many frustrating partners through the years fresh out of the 3 month medic mill. I knew most of them were just sold on the flashy TV commercial and not medicine. I see many of my former partners and graduates from the medic mills working for lawn services, which isn't bad income, and not in EMS. 

I've been vested with a retirement plan so I'm now making the decision to leave EMS behind and see how far being an RRT can take me...traveling.


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## Ridryder911 (Aug 23, 2008)

I know of Flight Paramedics making < $12.00 hr and that is with all the titles and credentials. Even the RN's around here are only $18.00 hr for speciality. One has to be very aware of the location and costs of living. 

R/r 911


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## rhan101277 (Aug 23, 2008)

Here is Mississippi you have to take real college level A&P I and II for paramedic.  Are there states where that isn't required?


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## rhan101277 (Aug 23, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> I know of Flight Paramedics making < $12.00 hr and that is with all the titles and credentials. Even the RN's around here are only $18.00 hr for speciality. One has to be very aware of the location and costs of living.
> 
> R/r 911



Well I am just doing it for extra money, so I guess it isn't a big deal.  Also the occassional call where I feel I made a difference.  I know most of the runs are transport where I am but anyhow.  I just get tired of working on cell sites, been doing it so long.  Sometimes there are problems that are a bit difficult, but most of them I have seen before.


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## VentMedic (Aug 24, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> I know of Flight Paramedics making < $12.00 hr and that is with all the titles and credentials.
> R/r 911


 


> I was lost really quick when everyone got it the drips and the physio behind it all. What medications and physio stuff should I read up on as a 911 guy trying to get into CCT? What are the most common medications that all of you carry?


 
The above quote was just posted on another forum. Unfortunately, some that want to do "advanced" practice things are clueless when it comes to the prep work. Some Paramedic schools have taught "flash cards" as a way of learning pharmacology. The Paramedics that have taken 2 semesters of college pharmacology will have a basic concept for the physiology and will just need to apply this knowledge to whatever medications are required for the job. It is easier to build if you work from the foundation up and not trying to build from the roof down. 

For a flight job, we may get 200 applications with more than half being easily eliminiated. The others are eliminated during the interview when you realize they are trying to picture their note cards and not rely on critical thinking for the answer. Thus, geographical location is not the only factor for low wages in this profession. The warm body mentality may still apply even for some flight companies.


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## VentMedic (Aug 24, 2008)

rhan101277 said:


> Here is Mississippi you have to take real college level A&P I and II for paramedic. Are there states where that isn't required?


 
Yes, many states have programs that still promote the medic mill concept by teaching only the bare minimum of hours for the Paramedic program which for some states (like Florida), it is only 700 hours.  There are also online programs that you can take in another state and fly in for  "intense clinicals" or it may be contracted off site to a location closer to you.  Either way, oversight of quality in a profession that does rely on good technical skills can be greatly skimped on.


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## KEVD18 (Aug 24, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> ... and a relative large ventilator (SERVO 900), compared to transport models today...



geesh you do go back a ways....


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## Ridryder911 (Aug 24, 2008)

rhan101277 said:


> Here is Mississippi you have to take real college level A&P I and II for paramedic.  Are there states where that isn't required?



Yes, most of them.

R/r 911


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## RESQ_5_1 (Aug 24, 2008)

Again, here in Canada, EMS pays well. It may be due to the subsidized health care. The ambulance service I work for is part of a regional network. We are part of Alberta Health Services/ Peace Country Health. We are affiliated with each hospital in each city/town that we work in. I primarily work out of Fairview, however, as I am typing this our second crew is covering another town approximately 40 minutes from here. Most of our calls are for transfers. And, most of those transfers are for pts 65 and over. And, those pts don't pay anything for ambulance service. It's covered by the province. 

We just sent a query CVA out this morning. The town we responded to was 25 km away. STARS (Shock Trauma Air Rescue Society), our regional flight medical crew, flew them to Grande Prairie (25-30 minute flight time). They landed at the local school to pick up. Our pt was a female in her mid-80s. Because she is in the over 65 category, and STARS is Volunteer and not-for-profit, she won't pay for anything out of her own pocket.


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## bled12345 (Aug 31, 2008)

wow, I don't even know where to start, but from the sounds of it the level of education / responsibilities is scattered all over the place in the U.S.  And with a 3-6 week EMT-Basic course staffing from the sounds of it, a huge majority of ambulances in the states, I can see why this reflects poor wages. 

Here in Alberta Canada, our EMT-Basic equivelant is an EMR, and it is basically viewed as a joke, if this was as far as you took your EMS education, you would be limited to working standby events, on oilrigs as an industrial first aider, and for VERY VERY rural services that basically need 1 more guy on the truck to drive.  If  you even want to CONSIDER working on an actual ambulance in alberta, having your EMT-A  (EMT-I)  is the industry standard.  its about a 7000 dollar course, which enables you to ECG monitor / dfib, do blind airway maneuvers (king-LT, combitube etc.)  give nebulized atrovent / salbutomol, epi, glucagon, ASA, Nitro, D50, nitrous oxide, and oral glucose, which really isn't much but its the basics.

The average starting wage for EMT-A's here in alberta is roughly 19.00$ and up. If you are working for Edmonton or Calgary, our 2 major urban cities, EMT starting wage is around 25$ an hour. 

As for Paramedics, am I hearing this right, there are paramedics in the states with 3 month long courses?  Tuition here in canada is around 20,000 and the course is 2 years long MINIMUM, and you have to already have your EMT-A and have been working for a year before schools even accept you, so that being said pretty well the FASTEST you could ever become a Paramedic in alberta is 4 years, and thats balls to the walls. At the end of it, our ALS paramedics are from what I am told are among the highest level of trained paramedics with one of the widest scopes of practise in the world. 

Paramedics top out around 32$ an hour working in the city. But if they go work industrial they can easily net 700 bucks a day.   32$ an hour is still alot when you consider they work 12 and 14 hour shifts.  

Paramedics, at least here is NOT an entry level health care job, they are highly skilled, trained, and specialized elements of the health care field. They are expected to be on top of their game, and have a vast understanding of emergency health care situations.


here in alberta, our wages are becoming competetive, and are poised to be even further on the rise, as the provincial health care system is beginning to utilize EMS personnel even in the hospital setting as their skills are useful in a variety of settings. 


Supply and Demand is at an employees advantage in alberta, as the majority of services are understaffed, and beginning to pay even more to attract highly trained EMS providers into their service.   If you want to make a life working as a paramedic, maybe its time for you Americans to start looking north of the border, to your often overlooked neighbours


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## EMT-G36C (Aug 31, 2008)

:excl::excl:





John E said:


> if the "rules" about supply and demand held true, the high demand would mean higher wages and better working conditions. The reverse is true in SoCal. The demand is high and the supply is even higher with schools churning out thousands of EMT grads who are willing to work for artificially low wages in order to either fill some sort of personal need or to gain experience, etc.
> 
> What's actually happening is a devaluation of employees. The demand is high because after a few months of working for sub-standard wages, people leave to go work at In and Out or elsewhere. Those that stay with it either accept that they are at the bottom of the wage chain and convince themselves that they're doing it for the good of humanity or they figure out how to make more money by becoming an FTO or a supervisor before they finally get so burned out and pissed off about their low wages that they leave the field all together.
> 
> ...


:excl::excl::excl:


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## Outbac1 (Aug 31, 2008)

$32.00 hr, I'd like that. But I don't want the cost of living that a large part of Alberta has, or the -30 & -40 deg winters. $500.00 a month for a room in an industrial trailer up north in Ft McMoney(Murray). Maybe if I was young and single for a few months for some quick cash. I'll stick to the east coast. We only have a couple of weeks of -20C and usually not much snow. We haven't even had a really good blizzard in 3 or 4 years. Once every 20 or 30 years we actually have a hurricane come ashore. Even then it's only a cat 1 or 2. Not the big 3,4,or 5 ones. The ocean can top 20C in summer, so not bad. I guess I'll live with my $20.00 - $25.00 hr.  Mind you I'll still grumble about the price of gas, groceries, beer, politicians, taxes ...........


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## AlaskaEMT (Sep 1, 2008)

bled12345 said:


> wow, I don't even know where to start, but from the sounds of it the level of education / responsibilities is scattered all over the place in the U.S.  And with a 3-6 week EMT-Basic course staffing from the sounds of it, a huge majority of ambulances in the states, I can see why this reflects poor wages.
> 
> Here in Alberta Canada, our EMT-Basic equivelant is an EMR, and it is basically viewed as a joke, if this was as far as you took your EMS education, you would be limited to working standby events, on oilrigs as an industrial first aider, and for VERY VERY rural services that basically need 1 more guy on the truck to drive.  If  you even want to CONSIDER working on an actual ambulance in alberta, having your EMT-A  (EMT-I)  is the industry standard.  its about a 7000 dollar course, which enables you to ECG monitor / dfib, do blind airway maneuvers (king-LT, combitube etc.)  give nebulized atrovent / salbutomol, epi, glucagon, ASA, Nitro, D50, nitrous oxide, and oral glucose, which really isn't much but its the basics.
> 
> ...



Canada is doing something right.  Way right.  And it's utterly pathetic that their neighbors to the south aren't even attempting to mimic them.  I feel awful about American EMS after reading :censored::censored::censored::censored: like this.


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## fortsmithman (Sep 1, 2008)

bled12345 said:


> wow, I don't even know where to start, but from the sounds of it the level of education / responsibilities is scattered all over the place in the U.S.  And with a 3-6 week EMT-Basic course staffing from the sounds of it, a huge majority of ambulances in the states, I can see why this reflects poor wages.
> 
> Here in Alberta Canada, our EMT-Basic equivelant is an EMR, and it is basically viewed as a joke, if this was as far as you took your EMS education, you would be limited to working standby events, on oilrigs as an industrial first aider, and for VERY VERY rural services that basically need 1 more guy on the truck to drive.  If  you even want to CONSIDER working on an actual ambulance in alberta, having your EMT-A  (EMT-I)  is the industry standard.  its about a 7000 dollar course, which enables you to ECG monitor / dfib, do blind airway maneuvers (king-LT, combitube etc.)  give nebulized atrovent / salbutomol, epi, glucagon, ASA, Nitro, D50, nitrous oxide, and oral glucose, which really isn't much but its the basics.
> 
> ...


The Alberta College of Paramedics has the highest standards for ems in the country.  An EMR working the oil rigs makes anywhere from 200.00 to 250.00 a day.  Also ACoP removed the a from the emt designation now it's just emt.  The ACoP site is at
http://www.collegeofparamedics.org/
Check it out if any US personnel are interested.  Also in 2009 the Alberta provincial government will be taking over EMS throughout Alberta.


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## BEorP (Sep 1, 2008)

fortsmithman said:


> The Alberta College of Paramedics has the highest standards for ems in the country.  An EMR working the oil rigs makes anywhere from 200.00 to 250.00 a day.  Also ACoP removed the a from the emt designation now it's just emt.  The ACoP site is at
> http://www.collegeofparamedics.org/
> Check it out if any US personnel are interested.  Also in 2009 the Alberta provincial government will be taking over EMS throughout Alberta.



Highest standards for EMS in the country? Ontario might try to challenge you for that title.


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## Foxbat (Sep 1, 2008)

If the wages for EMT-B are so low due to existance of volunteers, narrow scope of practice, and little education, why are wages for paramedics so close to wages for EMTs? After all, medics' education is broader and deeper than basic's, and there aren't much volunteer paramedics. One could expect them to get significantly more than basics.


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## Ridryder911 (Sep 1, 2008)

Because it does not take much more to become a Paramedic in many places as well. Whenever and if ever we really become a profession with real entry requirements, with real professors of EMS that requires formal education then and only then we will see a change. Until we see the mind set change from .. what's the easiest to what is the best.. nothing will change. 


R/r 911


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## MMiz (Sep 1, 2008)

Foxbat said:


> If the wages for EMT-B are so low due to existance of volunteers, narrow scope of practice, and little education, why are wages for paramedics so close to wages for EMTs? After all, medics' education is broader and deeper than basic's, and there aren't much volunteer paramedics. One could expect them to get significantly more than basics.


A Paramedic program at most places, including community college, is only a year.  How much in college loans does one have to pay back?  I agree that Paramedics should make more, but how much do you think they should be making?

As a public school teacher I went to college for four years, got a double major and a minor, did a year-long internship while going to school for a fifth year, and my first year made less than $30,000.  I made more money in college working as a web developer.


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## Foxbat (Sep 1, 2008)

MMiz said:


> A Paramedic program at most places, including community college, is only a year


Which is about 12 times longer than EMT-B.


> How much in college loans does one have to pay back?


About 5-10 times more than EMT-Bs.


> I agree that Paramedics should make more, but how much do you think they should be making?


I would think about 30 or 50% more than EMT-Bs.


> As a public school teacher I went to college for four years, got a double major and a minor, did a year-long internship while going to school for a fifth year, and my first year made less than $30,000. I made more money in college working as a web developer.


Exactly. You made less money by working in a field which requires more education and more responsibility. Which makes me think that while increasing education for both basics and medics is important, it will not by itself cause much difference payment wise. In Russia feldschers (whose duties are close to paramedics', but require 4 years of college) and even EMS physicians' salary is horrible compared to many other professions' (which require less education) wages.


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## MMiz (Sep 1, 2008)

An EMT-Basic program can cost around $1500, while a Paramedic program may cost $5,000 (these are high estimates).  99% of the programs are either local or at a community college where there is no additional cost for room and board.

Around here EMT-Basics make around $35,000 a year, while EMT-Paramedics make around $45,000 a year.  Of course those are averages.

As a teacher I would need to get another 2.5 years of college to get a 10% pay raise.  Getting an EMT-Paramedic cert is a bit more than a 10% raise, and only takes a year.


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## VentMedic (Sep 1, 2008)

MMiz said:


> .
> 
> As a teacher I would need to get another 2.5 years of college to get a 10% pay raise.


 
At graduate school tuition rates?

Ouch!


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## MMiz (Sep 1, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> At graduate school tuition rates?
> 
> Ouch!


Yeah, grad school tuition rates.  Taking the GRE in a few months, having one of my eighth graders tutor me in Algebra


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## TheMowingMonk (Sep 2, 2008)

Alot of it isnt necesarily based on how much time the education takes. Around here there are paramedic programs that range from 6 months of didactic + Clinicals and Preceptorship to 1.5 years didactic + Clinicals and Preceptorship and medics from moth programs end up making the same money. I think what maters is the amount of material you need to know rather then how long you are in school cause hell an idiot could stay in school and learn as much information in three years as a genious could learn. but in the end their skill based and knowledge is the same. The amount of time the spend in school is just a detail but it seems to be what everyone focuses on when it comes to EMS pay


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## MMiz (Sep 2, 2008)

TheMowingMonk said:


> Alot of it isnt necesarily based on how much time the education takes. Around here there are paramedic programs that range from 6 months of didactic + Clinicals and Preceptorship to 1.5 years didactic + Clinicals and Preceptorship and medics from moth programs end up making the same money. I think what maters is the amount of material you need to know rather then how long you are in school cause hell an idiot could stay in school and learn as much information in three years as a genious could learn. but in the end their skill based and knowledge is the same. The amount of time the spend in school is just a detail but it seems to be what everyone focuses on when it comes to EMS pay


I agree to a certain extent, but I think it's part of the equation.


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## TheMowingMonk (Sep 2, 2008)

the way i see it, we are not being paid for how much time we've spent in school. we are getting paid for the skills we provide, the more skills we are capable of providing the more we should get paid for. Personally I am all for increasing the standards of education for EMS because this will in turn increase the amount of skills we will possess as it limits ems to more qualified personel and with the ability to do more in the field then we would have an inarguable reason why we should get paid more.


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## VentMedic (Sep 2, 2008)

TheMowingMonk said:


> the way i see it, we are not being paid for how much time we've spent in school. we are getting paid for the skills we provide, the more skills we are capable of providing the more we should get paid for. Personally I am all for increasing the standards of education for EMS because this will in turn increase the amount of skills we will possess as it limits ems to more qualified personel and with the ability to do more in the field then we would have an inarguable reason why we should get paid more.


 
Like a laborer and not a professional?

The "skills" a Paramedic has are also possessed by many other healthcare professionals who also are required to have extensive college education regardless of how many skills they have. 



> Around here there are paramedic programs that range from 6 months of didactic + Clinicals and Preceptorship to 1.5 years didactic + Clinicals and Preceptorship and medics from moth programs end up making the same money.


 
A 110 hour EMT program can be stretched to 10 months by going 1 night a week for 2 hours. 

When the education is based on "hours" of training and not by degrees, it is hard to measure the length of the programs. CA requires only 1090 hours for a Paramedic program. If one does not know what the program consists of, it could be like the joke "it took him/her 8 years to finish college" if one person finished in 6 months and another in 1.5 years. 

This is the reason legislators have a difficult time understanding what it takes to be a paramedic. The credit hours of a degree are much easier to translate with some consistency even if the content varies. Even the trade programs like carpentry and welding now have translated their hours of study into college degrees to add value to their measurable education.


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## TheMowingMonk (Sep 2, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> A 110 hour EMT program can be stretched to 10 months by going 1 night a week for 2 hours.
> 
> When the education is based on "hours" of training and not by degrees, it is hard to measure the length of the programs. CA requires only 1090 hours for a Paramedic program. If one does not know what the program consists of, it could be like the joke "it took him/her 8 years to finish college" if one person finished in 6 months and another in 1.5 years.
> 
> This is the reason legislators have a difficult time understanding what it takes to be a paramedic. The credit hours of a degree are much easier to translate with some consistency even if the content varies. Even the trade programs like carpentry and welding now have translated their hours of study into college degrees to add value to their measurable education.



if that is the case, then I would be for making Paramedic a degree, I from what i hear in many places that what they do, and this could be a relistic goal since it exsists and most paramedic programs are already at community colleges why not just give the extra push and make it an associates program. I know when I go to Medic school im planing to get the associates in paramedicine that one of our CC offers


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## natrab (Sep 2, 2008)

Unfortunately there is a cap on what you get paid that is set by how much money your employer takes in.  If you're in the public sector, it depends on your taxpayers and union lobbyists.  If you're private ambulance, it depends on their need for employees and how much income they are bringing in.

In many places in the country, ambulance rides are not a big money-maker in the grand scheme of the medical world.  Many places actually lose money for the sake of providing the services (usually made up for in the form of a subsidy from the county).

I work in the Bay Area in California and I get paid quite well.  Everyone here does.  Why?  We have a high concentration of well-insured population as well as an extremely high demand for paramedics and EMTs.  We also have a much higher cost of living in comparison to most of the country, though our level of pay keeps us pretty comfortable in this environment.

We are still on the level of garbage men and cab drivers though due to our professional standards.  Rid's got it right, we need a nationwide effort to raise our own standards and move ourselves into a professional light.  Then we can demand appropriate wages and treatment.


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## TheMowingMonk (Sep 2, 2008)

natrab said:


> Unfortunately there is a cap on what you get paid that is set by how much money your employer takes in.  If you're in the public sector, it depends on your taxpayers and union lobbyists.  If you're private ambulance, it depends on their need for employees and how much income they are bringing in.
> 
> In many places in the country, ambulance rides are not a big money-maker in the grand scheme of the medical world.  Many places actually lose money for the sake of providing the services (usually made up for in the form of a subsidy from the county).
> 
> ...



im right with you on that one


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## VentMedic (Sep 2, 2008)

natrab said:


> I work in the Bay Area in California and I get paid quite well. Everyone here does. Why? We have a high concentration of well-insured population as well as an extremely high demand for paramedics and EMTs. We also have a much higher cost of living in comparison to most of the country, though our level of pay keeps us pretty comfortable in this environment.


 
Your wages are still very low when compared to what other degreed and licensed healthcare professionals make in the Bay Area.


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## fortsmithman (Sep 3, 2008)

MMiz said:


> A Paramedic program at most places, including community college, is only a year.  How much in college loans does one have to pay back?  I agree that Paramedics should make more, but how much do you think they should be making?
> 
> As a public school teacher I went to college for four years, got a double major and a minor, did a year-long internship while going to school for a fifth year, and my first year made less than $30,000.  I made more money in college working as a web developer.



In alberta paramedic programs are 2 yrs in length.  EMT programs take approx a year.


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## BossyCow (Sep 3, 2008)

My day job pays quite well. It is not a healthcare job, but private sector, technical. I get paid well because the time I spend is billed out at a rate that makes my employer money. The more I work, the more money they make on my labor. As experience improves my skill set, it also raises my value to my employers. Training someone new, which we do every summer with intern/draftsmen, takes time, effort and slows down projects. So, the incentive is to keep employees who know their jobs, do them well with minimal supervision. 

Why should EMS be any different? If the company you work for values what you do, they will pay you for it. If they don't, find another job, another agency, another career. But, if you are willing to keep showing up for work, working for an employer who doesn't respect what you do, in my opinion, that speaks more about you than it does the profession.

In my area, EMT-Bs are making a living wage, with benefits. EMT-Ps make really good money. But we are a limited geographic area with a small pool of job applicants. I find it really petty to be whining "I want to be an EMT-B but no one will pay me tons of money" So what ... my 19 year old son wants to be a rock star, no one is tossing money at him either.. make a choice then live with your choice. Its called growing up. 

If you want industry change, you have to become a vehicle for that change. If you want change, work for it, organize your workplace, support the associations financially who are lobbying for changes in the industry. Write your congressmen, participate in regional agencies who set policies. But you have to earn the right to complain by first being a part of the process.


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## RESQ_5_1 (Sep 3, 2008)

I did my EMT program in Alberta. And, it wasn't a year long. 

Oilpatch workers up here have nothing over a HS diploma other than some certificates such as WHMIS, H2S, etc. and the LOW end for them (rig hand) pas around $100,000/ year. While education is nice, pay is detemined more by what the field you work in will bear. When I worked as an industrial medic, the guys didn't understand why i made the amount I did (still MUCH less than them) for sitting on my butt. As I told them, I get paid for what I CAN do. Not necessarily what I do the majority of the time.


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## firetender (Sep 7, 2008)

As a rule, the private and municipal entities, the EMS system as a whole, and even ourselves (how else could it be considering that this is a major complaint I've been hearing since the birth of the profession -- profession? I'll have to let Rid tackle that one!) DON'T place a whole lot of economic value on what we do.

Considering a saved limb saves the society we live in millions of dollars, that doesn't make sense.  We're locked into this Good Samaritan complex where we feel it's not "appropriate" to strike or to press for equity with other vital agencies like Police and Fire. Who suffers there?

But now, getting older, my perspective changes.  The people most likely to work with us would be some of the people whose lives we actually impact. I know...acknowledgment like that's pretty rare too, yet, every now and again someone does DESIRE to contribute to our financial well-being *but there is no mechanism in place to support those kinds of "Thank Yous."*

I believe the whole situation could be remedied by seven simple words...

*"GRATUITIES NOT INCLUDED IN PRICE OF SERVICES"*

Each system -- county or private company -- could have a pool that is contributed to.  At the end of the month, the proceeds could be evenly distributed amongst on-duty medics (whose sole responsibility is to pre-hospital emergency medical care since everybody else in the world seems to get covered.) 

Republicans should like this as it is a private incentive rather than Governmentally mandated.

In a "professional" culture that has been unable to remedy this discrepancy for 40 years, thinking out of the box may be the only thing that works.

Respectfully submitted,
firetender


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## RESQ_5_1 (Sep 7, 2008)

To the best of my knowledge, Welder, Carpenter, Plumber, and Contractor are considered "Professions". They don't require a college degree. They require a certification and an apprenticeship. They also make much more than EMS workers (wouldn't want to misuse the term "profession").  

However, like I said earlier, they get paid what the market will bear. People will complain about paying their plumber $110/hr to come unclog their toilet, but they will still pay it. If you work for a private service, that service can only afford to pay X amount based on the total income of the service. 

I married a Canadian shortly after receiving my EMT-B in LA County. It took a while to find a school where I could receive the additional training I needed to make my EMT-A in Alberta. Once I did, and got divorced, I thought of moving to Oregon. Until I found out how much effort it would take to acheive EMT-I and the subsequent low pay it would result in. 

I am originally from Southern California, and I'm not fond of the -30 to -40 C temps in winter. But, I am very fond of the paychecks I make. And, I make the money I do because that is what the market will bear. I don't make the amount my colleague in Edmonton does, but that will most likely change soon.

p.s. bled12345, Say "hi" to Cam for me if you see him. I miss that chubby monkey.


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## VentMedic (Sep 7, 2008)

RESQ_5_1 said:


> To the best of my knowledge, Welder, Carpenter, Plumber, and Contractor are considered "Professions". They don't require a college degree. They require a certification and an apprenticeship. They also make much more than EMS workers (wouldn't want to misuse the term "profession").


 
Many do have college degrees and if you want to compare hours of training, they by far surpass any of the EMS hours at even the Paramedic level.   Yes, after they have completed all of their levels, they are professionals.   They, too, have found ways for more bargaining power through education.


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## MMiz (Sep 7, 2008)

Professions like a welder, carpenter, plumber, etc. get paid so well because of their extensive training and difficulty in finding a good provider.  Supply and demand have a big influence on those positions.

For the skilled trade jobs, you're paying for their labor to complete a job that you essentially could do yourself (with the training and knowledge), but rather pay someone else to do.  It's the same reason that garbage men make so much.  The job doesn't require an education, but would you really want to do it?


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## RESQ_5_1 (Sep 8, 2008)

The trades that I mentioned, are college DIPLOMAS. not DEGREES. I have never talked to a individual that works in these fields that has told me they had an Associates or Bachelor's degree in their respective fields. As far as hours of training, I know that up here, our practicum is competency based. An EMT student is required to complete X number of skill sets proficiently in order to pass. Then, when hired, they are usually required to complete an orientation phase with their new employer. So, it's only fair to include this time as an "Apprenticeship".

There is a college here (not a University) that offers a Diploma in motorcycle repair. Specifically, Harley Davidson. None of the graduates of this program holds a DEGREE. They receive a diploma. However, their training will provide them a solid base on which to find a job (or is it profession?) that will allow them to make much more money. Actually, even more money than an Electronics Technician will make. Which, by the way, requires an Associates Degree in electronics. 

It doesn't change the tone of my earlier comment, however, that certain fields make certain amounts based not on supply and demand, but what the market will bear. 

I don't have the time at this moment, but the first chance I get I will look into the requirements of the fields I mentioned. And, if they require Degrees to work in those fields, I will post a public apology.


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## RESQ_5_1 (Sep 8, 2008)

So, after some googling, I have found that an A.A./A.S. is available in Welding at Sierra college in California. However, although I am willing to admit I was wrong about degrees available in welding, I still must reiterate that I have NEVER met a welder with anything more than a certificate in welding.


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## triemal04 (Sep 8, 2008)

RESQ_5_1 said:


> I married a Canadian shortly after receiving my EMT-B in LA County. It took a while to find a school where I could receive the additional training I needed to make my EMT-A in Alberta. Once I did, and got divorced, I thought of moving to Oregon. Until I found out how much effort it would take to acheive EMT-I and the subsequent low pay it would result in.



You must not have been looking to hard or were looking a long time ago (back in the EMT 1, 2, 3, 4 days maybe?).  Oregon requires about 144 hours to become an EMT-I (plus having your EMT-B first which takes on average130 hours or so), and it is by no means a hard course, or anywhere near as extensive as it should be for what is available for EMT-I's to do.  Still confuses me that a state that requires a degree for Paramedics allows crap like that to go through.

You are right about the pay though; not much difference between a basic and intermediate.


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## VentMedic (Sep 8, 2008)

RESQ_5_1 said:


> The trades that I mentioned, are college DIPLOMAS. not DEGREES. I have never talked to a individual that works in these fields that has told me they had an Associates or Bachelor's degree in their respective fields. As far as hours of training, I know that up here, our practicum is competency based. An EMT student is required to complete X number of skill sets proficiently in order to pass. Then, when hired, they are usually required to complete an orientation phase with their new employer. So, it's only fair to include this time as an "Apprenticeship".
> 
> There is a college here (not a University) that offers a Diploma in motorcycle repair. Specifically, Harley Davidson. None of the graduates of this program holds a DEGREE. They receive a diploma. However, their training will provide them a solid base on which to find a job (or is it profession?) that will allow them to make much more money. Actually, even more money than an Electronics Technician will make. Which, by the way, requires an Associates Degree in electronics.
> 
> ...


 
Many do not know there are programs that offer degrees in EMS either. Many employers, private and FD, would probably prefer if people in EMS did not learn that they could get educated with at least a 2 year degree. 

Just like EMS the people who work in these professions can become as educated as they want to be. Not all are going to be the sweat stereotypes that you may be familiar with. Those that also want to teach in some aspect of the industrial arts also are well educated. Those that want to run they own business may be well educated. Those that want to be competitive in higher paying positions may be well educated. 

There are many technical degrees at the community college level. Then, you can advance to the Bachelors and Masters level. Some may be under the engineering section as educational requirements increase. Just like EMS, one can be a "certificate tech" or one can advance their education to achieve whatever goals.

My father was an industrial welder and safety officier for the coal mines. He had done some of this reseach for me over 30 years ago when I announced I wanted to go to college. He pointed out that I could go to college and still make use of his referral for a union card in the trades. 

http://www.broward.edu/images/ProgramSheets/A033.pdf

http://cops.uwf.edu/dect/construction.htm

Here's a couple of degrees that are unique to my area:
Diving Technology (yes scuba) and Marine Engineering (welding and boat repair)
http://www.fkcc.edu/catalog/07-08%20Catalog%20Site/Sections/programs/as.html#dive

Now for the west coast: 

Here's a degree in Welding (a thorough and impressive degree):
http://wserver.arc.losrios.edu/catalog/WeldingTech.pdf

Here's a Bachelor's degree in Welding:
http://www.ferris.edu/bachelor-welding-engineering-degree.htm

Here's the AWS (American Welding Society - yes even a professional association at the national level unlike EMS) that is offering scholarships for those that want to seek higher education in Welding.

http://www.aws.org/foundation/national_scholarships.html

Another example:
http://www.lcc.edu/manufacturing/welding/

Here's an example of a degree option for Automotive repair. Actually all of the certificate programs listed here have that option.
http://www.ccsf.edu/Departments/



> Automotive TechnologyDegree Curriculum
> City College offers credit for two years of pre-apprentice training for students seeking employment in the automotive industry. Students may apply the earned credit toward the Associate in Science degree.


 
I know there are many, many more degree programs out there. Shop teachers at your local high school probably had to have some formal education behind them to compliment their trade skills to be employed in some teaching systems. 

Geez, next you'll be trying to say there are no degrees in agriculture or wine making.

Edit:
Saw you last post after I posted this one.


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## RESQ_5_1 (Sep 8, 2008)

triemal04 said:


> You must not have been looking to hard or were looking a long time ago (back in the EMT 1, 2, 3, 4 days maybe?).  Oregon requires about 144 hours to become an EMT-I (plus having your EMT-B first which takes on average130 hours or so), and it is by no means a hard course, or anywhere near as extensive as it should be for what is available for EMT-I's to do.  Still confuses me that a state that requires a degree for Paramedics allows crap like that to go through.
> 
> You are right about the pay though; not much difference between a basic and intermediate.





Actually, in Oregon there is no reciprocity for EMT-I. I would have had to go back down to EMT-B and then jump through a crazy set of hoops to show the level I was trained to. Then, take the state exam. And, of course, then the NREMT exam. I chose to move back to Alberta. I found a good position that pays well. And, I work with some excellent people. 

In reply to VentMedic, I will have to go back to rig workers. In the oil patch up here, there is possibly some degree program offered for the guys that work the rigs. But, again, I have never met a single one that had a degree in their field. There is a short course, and some safety certificates required and that's about it. And these jobs start low end at around $85,000/year. I obviously don't have the education the teachers have up here, but I make MUCH more than they do.


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## triemal04 (Sep 9, 2008)

RESQ_5_1 said:


> Actually, in Oregon there is no reciprocity for EMT-I. I would have had to go back down to EMT-B and then jump through a crazy set of hoops to show the level I was trained to. Then, take the state exam. And, of course, then the NREMT exam. I chose to move back to Alberta. I found a good position that pays well. And, I work with some excellent people.


You consider a 144 hour course a lot of effort?  Especially if you allready know the material?  Heh.  Funny.  But I suppose that could be a problem  B)  Generally speaking, it's impossible to even get permission to test at the I level without first taking the course in Oregon.  And there's no requirement to take the NREMT test, not offered at all far as I know; Oregon has it's own certification as an EMT-I that doesn't follow either the I99 or I85 standards.

Funny old system ain't it?


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## fortsmithman (Sep 9, 2008)

RESQ_5_1 said:


> So, after some googling, I have found that an A.A./A.S. is available in Welding at Sierra college in California. However, although I am willing to admit I was wrong about degrees available in welding, I still must reiterate that I have NEVER met a welder with anything more than a certificate in welding.



the canadian equivalent of an associates degree is a 2 yr college diploma.

The only degrees offered in Canad is Bachelors masters and doctors.  No accredited canadian post secondary institution offers an associates degree.


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## EMTDON970 (Sep 9, 2008)

Its a damn shame when a tool booth worker on the PA turnpike makes more then 90% of EMS here...


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## RESQ_5_1 (Sep 9, 2008)

It wasn't the course that was the problem. It was the subsequent paperwork regarding verification of skills, signatures required, etc. They sent me a package with a STACK of paperwork that had to be filled out requiring signatures from sources that actually were no longer available. When I moved to Alberta, all I had to do was send in the materials and curriculum I learned(along with $500). The EMT school I went to in Alberta has since closed. So, difficult to get signatures when I have no contact info for the instructor. The form was very confusing and would have required numerous mailings at International rates. Since you are in Oregon, and the packet is free, order the reciprocity package. It is set up for transition from another state, not international licensing/certification. Plus, I would have had to track down my old EMT-B number. That was 6 years previous and California was being somewhat uncooperative. Again, much easier to move back to Alberta.


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## bled12345 (Sep 13, 2008)

that "welding" degree wasnt what you insinuated it to be, which was a degree fo welders. I looked into it, and its a bachelors degree in engineering - welding. No welding tradesmen is ever going to have a bachelors degree in engineering which requires "advanced calculus"  and still going to be holding a welding rod in their hands.


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## VentMedic (Sep 13, 2008)

bled12345 said:


> that "welding" degree wasnt what you insinuated it to be, which was a degree fo welders. I looked into it, and its a bachelors degree in engineering - welding. *No welding tradesmen is ever going to have a bachelors degree in engineering which requires "advanced calculus" and still going to be holding a welding rod in their hands*.


 
Wanna place some bets on that? I guess you haven't met many professional welders or only stereotype them.   Welders that work high tech know their stuff and still weld. 

Get over the "tech" mentality. That is what has held EMS back for the last 40 years. Why would one want to get all that book learnin' when they already can start an IV, intubate and do all that life savin' stuff? 

People have the opportunity to advance their education regardless of the job. Some may actually want it to become a "career".


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## bled12345 (Sep 14, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> Wanna place some bets on that? I guess you haven't met many professional welders or only stereotype them.   Welders that work high tech know their stuff and still weld.
> 
> Get over the "tech" mentality. That is what has held EMS back for the last 40 years. Why would one want to get all that book learnin' when they already can start an IV, intubate and do all that life savin' stuff?
> 
> People have the opportunity to advance their education regardless of the job. Some may actually want it to become a "career".




lol ummm wow... ok I was 3rd year apprentice in welding, and worked on alberta pipelines for 3 years with B pressure welders, pipeline welders are held to the highest standards and have the highest skill level out there, and they clear about 9 grand a week. Basically the best of the best, and although they are tremendously talented at what they do, they are all beer guzzling womanizing chain smoking blue collar people.  an ****ENGINEERING DEGREE IN WELDING**** (engineering)  "ENGINEERING" can I say engineering degree? ok one more time... *engineering* 

an electrical engineer isn't an electrician.... a mechanical engineer isn't a mechanic... and a welding engineer is definately not a blue collar welder. /end story


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## VentMedic (Sep 14, 2008)

bled12345 said:


> lol ummm wow... ok I was 3rd year apprentice in welding, and worked on alberta pipelines for 3 years with B pressure welders, pipeline welders are held to the highest standards and have the highest skill level out there, and they clear about 9 grand a week. Basically the best of the best, and although they are tremendously talented at what they do, *they are all beer guzzling womanizing chain smoking blue collar people.* an ****ENGINEERING DEGREE IN WELDING**** (engineering) "ENGINEERING" can I say engineering degree? ok one more time... *engineering*
> 
> an electrical engineer isn't an electrician.... a mechanical engineer isn't a mechanic... and a welding engineer is definately not a blue collar welder. /end story


 
You are saying there are no educated welders?   They are just a bunch of uneducated workers and

*



they are all beer guzzling womanizing chain smoking blue collar people.

Click to expand...

* 
Wow, that is short sighted and stereotyping not to mention insulting.   Not all welders work on a pipeline.  You are describing only one job in one area.  It seems you do not know enough about the profession to make any intelligent comments.   Don't bash another profession in attempts to make yourself look better or try to prove a point with so llittle information to back it up.


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## bled12345 (Sep 14, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> You are saying there are no educated welders?   They are just a bunch of uneducated workers and
> 
> *
> *
> Wow, that is short sighted and stereotyping not to mention insulting.   Not all welders work on a pipeline.  You are describing only one job in one area.  It seems you do not know enough about the profession to make any intelligent comments.   Don't bash another profession in attempts to make yourself look better or try to prove a point with so llittle information to back it up.





ok fine you win whatever, you obviously know more on the subject than somebody who was 1 year away from getting there welding...


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## VentMedic (Sep 14, 2008)

bled12345 said:


> ok fine you win whatever, you obviously know more on the subject than somebody who was 1 year away from getting there welding...


 
Yes, I do know this from being in the college system a long time and coming from a familly of welders in various industries for several decades.  There are many different areas a welder is needed and should bring different levels of expertise/education for the job.  Being a beer guzzler on a pipeline is not one of the qualifications and probably would not get you a job in a  high tech industry. 

I used to do a little welding myself to pick up some extra cash. I learned from both my father and college welding classes.


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## bled12345 (Sep 14, 2008)

lol wow.. whatever


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## ffemt8978 (Sep 14, 2008)

Ahhhemmmm


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## rchristi (Sep 14, 2008)

*A different example*

Here is a different field where no degree is required yet pays very well. Because  there is one entity setting and enforcing high standard, the nuclear power industry pays its operators well and still has a shortage of people. 
Check this link out for a comprehensive system of licensing and continuing training.
http://www.nrc.gov/reactors/operator-licensing.html

I am not saying it is the only right answer, but it is an example


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## MMiz (Sep 14, 2008)

Just for the record, one of my college instructors worked full time as a welder and part time as an instructor.  I asked him why he made so much, and he said it was due to the short supply of highly skilled welders.  There are tons of people out there that can weld, but very few who have mastered all the different types of welding.


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## VentMedic (Sep 14, 2008)

The point is welders, carpenters, artists or whatever have learned long ago how to make themselves marketable even if it means getting an education by way of a college in the area they want to specialize in. If everybody was a trade school 6 weeks or less welder and that was the only need, wages would not be as high nor would the demand be there. 

Other healthcare professions have also learned this. 

EMTs (and Paramedics) have essentially stayed the same for 40 years with little or no advancement especially in the area of education. When the ARC courses out number the EMT in total hours of training, there is a problem in the industry.


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## medic417 (Sep 28, 2008)

Vent I agree lack of education leads to low wages.  It is sad that the local carhop makes as much if not more than those that are supposed to be medical professionals.  It is time EMS steps up and demands improvement.  Close the diploma mills and require higher education for all levels that will exist in this profession.


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## TheMowingMonk (Oct 2, 2008)

medic417 said:


> Vent I agree lack of education leads to low wages.  It is sad that the local carhop makes as much if not more than those that are supposed to be medical professionals.  It is time EMS steps up and demands improvement.  Close the diploma mills and require higher education for all levels that will exist in this profession.



well from what ive been reading in the news it looking like its starting to go in that direction. At least at the medic level, Ive heard of one state now that will only accept medic from accredited programs and I've heard of some other states that are going that direction. Personally I think they should make all medic programs as least AS programs, at least then they will have some sort of a degree, and even though it might not change how good of a medic they are in the eyes of the public having a degree makes you that much more respectable as a profession. But thats my little rant, like personally if i end up going the medic route I'm only going to go to one of the programs that is an AS for medic.


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## rhan101277 (Oct 2, 2008)

When i finish paramedic school, I will actually have a Associates Degree.  Not sure if it is going to be in paramedicine or emergency medicine.


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## flhtci01 (Oct 2, 2008)

*Here's an example*

During our class, we had an instructor (a flight medic) ask the class how many wanted to be flight medics.  Most hands went up.  He then asked how many would be willing to do it for free.  Most of the hands stayed up.  He then said "I hate you."  His point being that if we, as a profession, are willing to to work for nothing or next to nothing, that is what we would be making.


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## Sasha (Oct 2, 2008)

rhan101277 said:


> When i finish paramedic school, I will actually have a Associates Degree.  Not sure if it is going to be in paramedicine or emergency medicine.



I will too! The associates degree is in Emergency Medicine. ^_^


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## Flight-LP (Oct 2, 2008)

flhtci01 said:


> During our class, we had an instructor (a flight medic) ask the class how many wanted to be flight medics.  Most hands went up.  He then asked how many would be willing to do it for free.  Most of the hands stayed up.  He then said "I hate you."  His point being that if we, as a profession, are willing to to work for nothing or next to nothing, that is what we would be making.



Sweet! Nice tactic....................


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## Sasha (Oct 2, 2008)

Flight-LP said:


> Sweet! Nice tactic....................



And so true! I was shocked to find out that outside of Florida a lot of the EMS service is strictly volunteer.


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## 41 Duck (Oct 2, 2008)

Most of it is volly here.  

There's a couple of large (mostly transport) companies, but just about every municipality is served by a 2-rig volunteer corps.  Some have leased EMTs through a local hospital to cover staffing when vollies are unable.  Others have started hiring part-timers to supplement the volly shortage.  Countywide, I can think of maybe seven or eight companies that serve a municipality (usually a township) that are mostly paid (not leased).  Why the companies don't hire more of their own?  Most can't afford it.  And every EMT worth their cert is lining up at the few places that do--the hospitals included.

As far as ALS... Well, the big companies usually run MICUs and provide ALS service for their area of response.  Outside of that, There's two hospitals with ALSUs that run chase trucks.  I think there's three indie MICU stations, all of which are fire-based.

That's what it looks like by me...


Later!

--Coop


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## flhtci01 (Oct 2, 2008)

rchristi said:


> Here is a different field where no degree is required yet pays very well. Because  there is one entity setting and enforcing high standard, the nuclear power industry pays its operators well and still has a shortage of people.
> Check this link out for a comprehensive system of licensing and continuing training.
> http://www.nrc.gov/reactors/operator-licensing.html
> 
> I am not saying it is the only right answer, but it is an example



OOOOOH! Don't go there:sad:  I worked in the field for 22 years and had a license for 16 of them.  There is a lack of licensed operators because it is hard to get and keep a license.  Since the failure rate is high on the training , they are very selective on who starts the training.  I have seen retired Navy sub commanders fail out of the class.  Then there is the retraining, I averaged 400 hours of classroom retraining every year.  This is classroom, not self study time. Failure at any of the training/retraining meant more training and possible job loss.

I needed something more relaxing so I got into EMS.:wacko:


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## Ridryder911 (Oct 2, 2008)

Sasha said:


> I will too! The associates degree is in Emergency Medicine. ^_^



You can't recieve a degree in medicine. It maybe emergency medical technology, Paramedicine.. but a degree in medicine is an M. D. 

R/r 911


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## Foxbat (Oct 2, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> You can't recieve a degree in medicine. It maybe emergency medical technology, Paramedicine.. but a degree in medicine is an M. D.
> R/r 911



Actually, you can...
https://www.shrs.pitt.edu/CMS/Departments/EM.asp?id=181

_Undergraduate Degree in Emergency Medicine

The University of Pittsburgh offers an undergraduate program in emergency medicine. Students are provided with a strong foundation in clinical experiences, educational expertise, and administrative leadership_


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## VentMedic (Oct 2, 2008)

Foxbat said:


> Actually, you can...
> https://www.shrs.pitt.edu/CMS/Departments/EM.asp?id=181
> 
> _Undergraduate Degree in Emergency Medicine_
> ...


 
This is the School of Medicine for that university.
http://www.medschool.pitt.edu/

The program your are referring to is under Health and Rehab aka Allied Health.


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## Sasha (Oct 2, 2008)

Ridryder911 said:


> You can't recieve a degree in medicine. It maybe emergency medical technology, Paramedicine.. but a degree in medicine is an M. D.
> 
> R/r 911



Hey Im just stating what my director said it was. I dont have it yet. Check back in three semesters and Ill let you know.


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## rchristi (Oct 2, 2008)

flhtci01 said:


> OOOOOH! Don't go there:sad:  I worked in the field for 22 years and had a license for 16 of them.  There is a lack of licensed operators because it is hard to get and keep a license.  Since the failure rate is high on the training , they are very selective on who starts the training.  I have seen retired Navy sub commanders fail out of the class.  Then there is the retraining, I averaged 400 hours of classroom retraining every year.  This is classroom, not self study time. Failure at any of the training/retraining meant more training and possible job loss.
> 
> I needed something more relaxing so I got into EMS.:wacko:



That is also why 150K a year is not too uncommon an income even though no degree is required, only excellence upheld by strict consistent standards. The Nuclear industry is tough, but the pay is good.


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## triemal04 (Oct 2, 2008)

rchristi said:


> That is also why 150K a year is not too uncommon an income even though no degree is required, only excellence upheld by strict consistent standards. The Nuclear industry is tough, but the pay is good.


So...what you're saying is that when standards are high, when standards are enforced, and the only acceptable level is excellence pay increases?

Wow...suddenly the reason the US EMS system is so screwed is starting to make sense...


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## captchaz55 (Oct 4, 2008)

*Little money...*

Big reward though. I work with the NYS Department of Conservation, talk about little pay, It pays half of what I made as a EMT-Basic for the top hospital based EMS system on Long Island.


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## RESQ-ME (Mar 15, 2009)

*Emt pay*

I'm a volunteer EMT student now and I agree those in the field who are in career need more $. But if yoou want the big $ you need to be a nurse these days. Considering there will be a shortage of 500,000 nurses in 2014. I'd get the education and go for a specialty. Just my thoughts!


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## medic417 (Mar 15, 2009)

RESQ-ME said:


> I'm a volunteer EMT student now and I agree those in the field who are in career need more $. But if yoou want the big $ you need to be a nurse these days. Considering there will be a shortage of 500,000 nurses in 2014. I'd get the education and go for a specialty. Just my thoughts!



Oh but in EMS if people did not give their services away for free we could see higher pay as well.


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## fortsmithman (Mar 15, 2009)

Kaisu said:


> Pretty hard to get more money for a position when its so easy to get into and so many people are willing to do it for free.



Here in western Canada we have volly, paid on call and full time and our full times  EMT's make aroud 20-25 dollars per hour and our aramedics make roughly 30-35 dollars per hour.  The EMT's and paramedics can make more tha that if they go industrial such as oil fields mining etc.   They make that much even though we have volly depts.  My service is paid on call.


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## fortsmithman (Mar 15, 2009)

BEorP said:


> If you want "alot more respect" maybe you should get a lot more education first.
> 
> If you want money while working EMS, come to Ontario, get an education, and you'll be paid accordingly.


Come to Alberta instead after you get more education.  You will probably get more money.


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## RESQ-ME (Mar 15, 2009)

*EMT Volunteers*

I like the EMS community....just saying if your unhappy with the pay do something else. Nobody forces anybody to do the job they pick. I'm a teacher and all I hear is we're paid too much. I wish people would stop crying and take responsiblity for who they are and what they do. If you don't like it --quit. Do something else. People choose their own careers -- nobody forces them to do it. Plus, half of the time I'm at the squad station your waiting around to do something, so your getting paid to wait and study etc. Might as well use the time to further your education etc.


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## Sasha (Mar 15, 2009)

RESQ-ME said:


> I like the EMS community....just saying if your unhappy with the pay do something else. Nobody forces anybody to do the job they pick. I'm a teacher and all I hear is we're paid too much. I wish people would stop crying and take responsiblity for who they are and what they do. If you don't like it --quit. Do something else. People choose their own careers -- nobody forces them to do it. Plus, half of the time I'm at the squad station your waiting around to do something, so your getting paid to wait and study etc. Might as well use the time to further your education etc.



Some people are actually in this profession because they have a passion for people and medicine. 

Whenever someone tries to change it, people whine. When they try to increase educational standards people whine. When they try to increase pay people whine. So those who are trying to take responsiblity and change things are getting met with incessant whining.

Something worth noting, I believe. Essentially, fire fighters perform the same job as EMTs and Paramedics. (At least around here, there aren't many good workable fires.) They also get paid signficantly more.


*Fire Fighters*


> Minimum annual base salary      Maximum annual base salary
> Fire chief                 $73,435                    $95,271
> Deputy chief            66,420                      84,284
> Assistant fire chief    61,887                      78,914
> ...



*EMTs and Paramedics*


> Earnings of EMTs and paramedics depend on the employment setting and geographic location of their jobs, as well as their training and experience. Median annual earnings of EMTs and paramedics were $27,070 in May 2006. The middle 50 percent earned between $21,290 and $35,210. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $17,300, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $45,280. Median annual earnings in the industries employing the largest numbers of EMTs and paramedics in May 2006 were $23,250 in general medical and surgical hospitals and $20,350 in ambulance services.



My source for both of these were the occupational outlook handbook, which can be accessed at this site.


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## Ridryder911 (Mar 15, 2009)

RESQ-ME said:


> I'm a volunteer EMT student now and I agree those in the field who are in career need more $. But if yoou want the big $ you need to be a nurse these days. Considering there will be a shortage of 500,000 nurses in 2014. I'd get the education and go for a specialty. Just my thoughts!



Start really comparing the pay & you will see that it is almost equal and in some areas medics make more. There is a lot of propaganda about $50-75/hr travel jobs, but those are almost a thing of the past. Figure, most you have deduct taxes and other stuff, you are not making that extreme amount of pay and trust me, if you do; then you have probably earned it. 

R/r911


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## Foxbat (Mar 15, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Essentially, fire fighters perform the same job as EMTs and Paramedics. (At least around here, there aren't many good workable fires.)


Firefighters are payed not only for what they do but for what they can do (in addition to their medical training).


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## medic417 (Mar 16, 2009)

Foxbat said:


> Firefighters are payed not only for what they do but for what they can do (in addition to their medical training).



Paramedics can do more and do more actual work so by your theory they should be paid more than a firefighter.


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## Sasha (Mar 16, 2009)

Foxbat said:


> Firefighters are payed not only for what they do but for what they can do (in addition to their medical training).



At least in my area, there are very few workable fires (Installation of sprinkler systems, stricter fire codes, flame resistant building materials helps with cutting them down, so I'm pretty sure this is a more universal thing), there is little more that they "can do" most of the time. I don't feel it warrants such a harsh pay difference from that of a paramedic or an EMT.


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## boingo (Mar 16, 2009)

You need to shop around, there are systems out there paying well, unfortunately they are few and far between, and generally a fresh out of school medic won't be walking into one of those jobs.


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