# Regulations banning smoking in BLS Ambulances



## ConcernedEMT (Oct 12, 2008)

Hi Everyone!

My squad has a problem member. In several of our rigs, there are cigarette burn marks, and we even found used cigarettes under the seats. Two of our township residents, who are not members, also reported to our squad that they saw a member smoking in one of our rigs. They were able to successfully identify this member.

A meeting was held, but the outcome was that the member will not be reprimanded. I know there must be some sort of regulation or law that prevents anyone from smoking in an ambulance. We are located in NJ. I did locate NJ Administrative Code Title 8, Chapter 40, which states that crewmember duties include prohibiting smoking within the vehicle at all times (NJAC 8.40-6.4, a15).

I have also tried locating OSHA regulations regarding smoking with no avail.

Does anyone else know of regulations/laws that prevent smoking in ambulances?


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## Ridryder911 (Oct 12, 2008)

Look at OSHA again. There is a regulation regarding food (even lipstick) and usage of tobacco in EMS unit. 

R/r 911


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## Sapphyre (Oct 12, 2008)

I'm in California, but here, the state says no smoking in back at all, and only in the front when there's no patient.  Most companies expand it to the local workplace smoking rule that states there is smoking in designated outdoor areas only (with a few exceptions).    Hmmm, does that make sense?


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## onwego (Oct 12, 2008)

In my opinion there should be no smoking in an ambulance, period.  There are oxygen tanks that can be a hazard not to mention the fact that it looks unprofessional as well.  Smoking in vehicles also tends to create an odor that is nearly impossible to get rid of in that size space.


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## stephenrb81 (Oct 12, 2008)

Perhaps he was reprimanded behind closed doors.  Any time I have been reprimanded for anything, it involved a private meeting with management and wasn't broadcasted to the rest of the employee body.

Watch for a Memo or new policy regarding tobacco usage on company time.  That is about how it goes for the companies/districts I have worked for in the past:  Somebody does something that common sense dictates should not be done, Person spends an hour in the main office, a new memo is then distributed informing us "You should not be <doing whatever the employee was doing>!!!!", we all laugh/cuss at the memo because 'None of us are stupid enough to do that' (Not really knowing someone was reprimanded earlier in the morning)


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## el Murpharino (Oct 12, 2008)

OSHA regulations state that there shall be no smoking within 20 feet of any compressed cylinder including oxygen (29 CFR 1910.101b). This rules out smoking in any ambulance or EMS response vehicle as well as within most garages or apparatus bays where EMS vehicles are housed. This sentiment is echoed by the National Fire Protection Association in their standards.  

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=9747


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## firecoins (Oct 12, 2008)

smoking in any part of the ambulance clearly against the rules.


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## traumateam1 (Oct 12, 2008)

No smoking in the ambulance station PERIOD. Smoking is allowed out front of the bay doors, and on the side where the side entrance is, but not inside the bay area or inside the station. No Exceptions.


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## KEVD18 (Oct 12, 2008)

onwego said:


> There are oxygen tanks that can be a hazard



you sir are in need of an education.

oxygen is not flamable. it is not an accelerant. it is an oxidizer(oddly enough). there is absolutely no danger of smoking in an ambulance. heres why:


even if the main and all protables were left open, the amulance would not be able to become oxygen saturated, or at the very least sustain said state for two reasons. we are in and out of the truck so many times is an hour much less a shift that the air inside the truck is exchaged completely over 50 times and hour. two, an amublance it not a sealed environment so even with the doors and windown closed, you still have the climate vents to deal with. 


thats not to say smoking in the rig is acceptable. it isnt. but danger has nothing to do with it.


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## VentMedic (Oct 12, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> you sir are in need of an education.
> 
> oxygen is not flamable. it is not an accelerant. it is an oxidizer(oddly enough). there is absolutely no danger of smoking in an ambulance. heres why:
> 
> ...


 
No O2 is not flammable, but  I wouldn't want to be the one to test your assumptions. 

Often the cause of many house fires are from people, that want to smoke, who have taken their NC off and laid it in the bed clothes which then become very saturated with oxygen. Once the cigarette drops on an O2 enriched environment, it's all over. 

We have also had people in the ED who have lit high flow O2 devices and used them as weapons against the staff.  People who have wanted to commit suicide have used O2 sources in the hospital to accelerate the flame. 

You will also be transporting asthmatics who have sensitive airways. How stupid is it to have your ambulance and yourself stinking like an ash tray?


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## Zippo1969 (Oct 13, 2008)

*Ramb'O2*



VentMedic said:


> We have also had people in the ED who have lit high flow O2 devices and used them as weapons against the staff.



HOLY SMOKES!  (sorry, that was too easy)

We've got to hear the rest of this story...hope no one was hurt tho


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## Zippo1969 (Oct 13, 2008)

*tacky*

I agree there should not be smoking in the bus - very "mother, jugs and speed"ish, don't ya think?


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## VentMedic (Oct 13, 2008)

Zippo1969 said:


> HOLY SMOKES!  (sorry, that was too easy)
> 
> We've got to hear the rest of this story...hope no one was hurt tho


 
Have you ever worked in a large city ED or busy EMS system?   I'm sure even my stories are tame when compared to NYC and LA.  Although, I think Miami can hold up with the best of them.


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## Flight-LP (Oct 13, 2008)

ConcernedEMT said:


> We are located in NJ



Need we say anymore?????


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## mycrofft (Oct 13, 2008)

*Next time I read "O2 doesn't burn"... clobberin' time.*

Nitrous dosn't burn either, its an oxidant, but either are stored in pressurized containers and can accelerate fires, magnify sparks to ignite other stuff. And since the interior of the ambulance is made of Melamine, polycarbonate, woven artifical or wool stuff, documentary plain and NCR paper, and lots of paper wrapped cotten bandages, you do not need heightened O2 to cause a very toxic hot smokey fire. You are safer smoking near a UDMH* or hydrogen tanker in the open.
Ask your insurance people, NFPA, etc. Stupid danged immature addicitve childish behavior on an employer's time in an unsafe environment.


*A class of methyl-ethyl badstuff known as "rocket fuel").


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## Zippo1969 (Oct 13, 2008)

yep worked in new orleans for a time - definately some strangeness there.

I have a mental picture of an aged RAMBO in a wheelchair with his O2 flamethrower...


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## KEVD18 (Oct 13, 2008)

one more thing: can anyone explain to me the difference between a bls ambulance and an als ambulance as it pertains to this discussion?


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## TransportJockey (Oct 13, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> one more thing: can anyone explain to me the difference between a bls ambulance and an als ambulance as it pertains to this discussion?



Essentially nothing at my service. ALS rigs carry IV pumps and vents as standard, while a BLS doesn't. Everything else is the same... And some of our medics don't carry those either.


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## stephenrb81 (Oct 13, 2008)

jtpaintball70 said:


> Essentially nothing at my service. ALS rigs carry IV pumps and vents as standard, while a BLS doesn't. Everything else is the same... And some of our medics don't carry those either.



I believe KEVD18 was referring to what difference does BLS and ALS trucks have as in one smoking inside of either.  The OP asked about regulations banning smoking in *BLS* ambulances as if it would be different than smoking in an ALS truck


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## Airwaygoddess (Oct 13, 2008)

*You have got to be kidding!*

They are to be for patient transports, I don't care if it is ALS or BLS.  Smoking in a ambulance is unprofessinal, unhealthy for your patient and your partner.  Not to mention all of chemicals that go on to the supplies and equipment from smoking.  We are to be the patient's advocates.....

                    Poor judgement............. sigh


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## BossyCow (Oct 13, 2008)

I would review your agencies policy regarding tobacco use. Specifically look at the infection control policy, which OSHA requires and must be reviewed yearly. Aside from the whole smoke, fire, pollutants issue, the act of putting something in your mouth with your hands in the pathogen loaded atmosphere of a rig is stupid! 

What you have is someone who believes that the 'anti-smoking' crowd is unfairly jumping on him about something silly. and obviously has no respect for the rules of your organization or its reputation with the public. I would address the PR issues with your admin. If you put your concerns in writing, they will be kept as part of the legal records of your department. Also, talk to your infection control officer regarding a training on how stupid this is.


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## Meursault (Oct 13, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> We have also had people in the ED who have lit high flow O2 devices and used them as weapons against the staff.



Out of curiosity, what acts as the fuel in this case? The plastic of the device itself?


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## Hastings (Oct 13, 2008)

How absurd.

Just get out of the ambulance, walk a few feet away, and smoke in whatever parking lot you're parked in. 

Shouldn't be smoking in an ambulance for a million different reasons.


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## VentMedic (Oct 13, 2008)

MrConspiracy said:


> Out of curiosity, what acts as the fuel in this case? The plastic of the device itself?


 
There are many things in an ED that can be lit like sheets, alcohol, lighters and the oxygen permeated plastic tubing that the oxygen can accelerate the flames.  If you put a flame near a nasal cannula with O2 running you will get a good flash flame.  I see quite a few of my O2 wearing smokers that have tried that once or twice.


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## VentMedic (Oct 13, 2008)

I have great respect for oxygen and the tanks it is stored in. 

A quick internet search for oxygen related incidents:

*Premature Boy Burned After Fire In Oxygen Hood*

Jan 23, 2008 11:17 pm 

http://wcco.com/local/newborn.injured.fire.2.635907.html



> However, the fire dangers of oxygen in hospitals and other health care facilities are well known. Fires happen during surgery, and they even happen when patients who are on oxygen try to smoke.
> 
> The ECRI Institute, a nonprofit health research agency based in suburban Philadelphia, estimates that 50 to 100 fires annually ignite during surgeries performed in the U.S. Many surgical tools generate heat, and oxygen can build up in operating rooms, particularly under surgical drapes.
> 
> The institute says those fires kill one to two people annually, and 20 percent of the affected patients suffer serious injuries. The American Society of Anesthesiologists was developing guidelines for preventing surgical fires.


 

Defibrillation in Oxygen-Enriched Environments

http://www.mdsr.ecri.org/summary/detail.aspx?doc_id=8126

*Man escapes injury with oxygen tank fire *
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=4919

*Fort Collins fire caused by candle, oxygen tube*

http://www.reporterherald.com/news_story.asp?ID=13813

*Deseret News | Patient on oxygen lights cigarette and ignites ER*


http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,635178466,00.html


*Woman Taken To Hospital With Serious Burns Monday Morning*

*http://www.lasvegasnevada.gov/Publications/7217.htm*

*Here's 108 articles from a tobacco website:*
*http://www.tobacco.org/articles/category/fires/?code=fires&pattern=oxygen*


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## KEVD18 (Oct 13, 2008)

alright, Ive been putting this off but i guess i'm just going to bit the bullet, take the heat and see if we can put this one to bed.

first, i know there are reasons not to smoke in an ambulance. its not fair to the patients or your partner, its presents an unclean image for the company and the industry etc etc etc. all of those i understand. but the safety risk is decidedly over hyped. i know this to be true. how? read on.

here's the part I'm going to catch hell on. I'm a smoker. have been since i was 15. Ive smoked in just about every ambulance Ive ever worked in. further, Ive smoked in a truck i know had a leaky regulator. never smoked with a patient on board, although i recognize that isn't worth much here. Ive probably smoked thousands of cigarettes in an ambulance and i have yet to blow up. mainly because for that to happen, the environment had to oxygen saturated which would be very difficult to accomplish with the windows open etc.

am i proud of this, no. but i hate myths and legends and scare tactics. don't smoke in an ambulance because its wrong in a lot of ways. but the safety hazard is overwhelmingly exaggerated.

now, feel free to commence beating me up over this. but those are my experiences.


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## Hastings (Oct 13, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> alright, Ive been putting this off but i guess i'm just going to bit the bullet, take the heat and see if we can put this one to bed.
> 
> first, i know there are reasons not to smoke in an ambulance. its not fair to the patients or your partner, its presents an unclean image for the company and the industry etc etc etc. all of those i understand. but the safety risk is decidedly over hyped. i know this to be true. how? read on.
> 
> ...



Every partner I've had smoked too. I don't like it, but I deal. You know why? They're respectful and intelligent enough to simply walk a yard away from the ambulance before lighting up. It's so easy.


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## KEVD18 (Oct 13, 2008)

well i have to add that i only smoked in the rig when my partner was a smoker as well. otherwise, i went out side.

still no excuse, but eliminates that argument.


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## Hastings (Oct 13, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> well i have to add that i only smoked in the rig when my partner was a smoker as well. otherwise, i went out side.
> 
> still no excuse, but eliminates that argument.



I meant a respect of the vehicle and of the patients that would eventually be riding in it. I was walking that yard with my partner to talk to them as they smoke. Never an excuse to smoke in the rig. Not when such little effort of walking a few feet away makes such a huge difference.


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## VentMedic (Oct 13, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> here's the part I'm going to catch hell on. I'm a smoker. have been since i was 15. Ive smoked in just about every ambulance Ive ever worked in. further, Ive smoked in a truck i know had a leaky regulator. never smoked with a patient on board, although i recognize that isn't worth much here. Ive probably smoked thousands of cigarettes in an ambulance and i have yet to blow up. mainly because for that to happen, the environment had to oxygen saturated which would be very difficult to accomplish with the windows open etc.
> 
> am i proud of this, no. *but i hate myths and legends and scare tactics.* don't smoke in an ambulance because its wrong in a lot of ways. but the safety hazard is overwhelmingly exaggerated.
> 
> now, feel free to commence beating me up over this. but those are my experiences.


 
Education, education, Education.

Myths? I guess this is where some FF training could be beneficial to you. 

What you do to yourself is one thing. If it puts a patient or your partner in danger, that is something else. 

Respiratory equipment is supposed to be regulated, checked and double checked. I'm sure the last thing on the minds of the RN and RRT in the nursery was giving a baby severe burns on their shifts. 

I have seen O2 fires and they can have some very deadly results. Our county hospital has had more than its share even with the best of safety efforts. I have 2 patients in our BICU that were the result of smoking with O2. Neither have a good prognosis. The equipment I work with is constantly checked by us and by Biomed. Doing something stupid just because you think it can't happen to you is irresponsible if others are around or to the property of your company. I would rather not tempt fate by being in a closed ambulance with oxygen equipment running or things that have been exposed to large quantities of oxygen. Some transport ventilators can run at 60 L/min. That is why we advise single limb ventilator circuits to remain outside of the bedsheets to exhaust. 

I personally would not want to be responsible for someone's burns by giving irresponsible advice. Respect the O2 and don't smoke around it. Do not advise patients who smoke that it is okay to do so with O2. Do not tell them the danger of O2 and smoking is a "myth". Do not play with fire and O2 just to disprove a "myth".


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## stephenrb81 (Oct 13, 2008)

Every MSDS lists compressed medical oxygen as NonFlammable with No Flashpoint

Granted Oxygen is required for combustion, and the richer the atmosphere the higher the chances of a *boom*.  The O2 tanks we use are compressed oxygen, while the latent atmosphere is mostly nitrogen.....Small enclosed space with an O2 tank opened up will create the potential for an explosion if there is the slightest accelerant in the richer atmosphere compared to that of 'simply the air we breath'


Edit:  A gasoline soaked rag in a shed with a spark from a lighter 10 feet away will not cause an explosion.......same room, same rag, same spark with an O2 tank opened up and a huge BOOM


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## el Murpharino (Oct 13, 2008)

this guy was a fan of smoking while on oxygen...

http://www.medbc.com/annals/review/vol_19/num_2/text/vol19n2p99.asp

But I think KEVD's situation differs because he's not smoking while ON oxygen...he's just near equipment that dispenses oxygen.


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## VentMedic (Oct 13, 2008)

stephenrb81 said:


> Every MSDS lists compressed medical oxygen as NonFlammable with No Flashpoint


 
That is correct but it supports combustion.  Why do you think it is a popular gas for welding?


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## stephenrb81 (Oct 13, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> That is correct but it supports combustion.  Why do you think it is a popular gas for welding?



I caught that as I hit post, so I added the part about its requirement for combustion


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## KEVD18 (Oct 13, 2008)

VentMedic said:


> That is correct but it supports combustion.  Why do you think it is a popular gas for welding?



it does more than support combustion, its required. speaking of being educated in fire science, oxygen is sort of a huge part of the fire tetrahedron. way more than a support role.

again, i'm not trying to defend my actions. i know it wrong. but for this issue to be an imminent safety risk, you need an oxygen rich environment. a person that's on 2l all day every day, their facial hair, nose hair, hair hair, clothing can be saturated. if you leave a cannula running sitting on clothes or sheets, they become saturated. but a vehicle in motion, with a forced ventilation system, passive vents in the walls and open windows is pretty well impossible to saturate.

for their to be a significant fire from smoking in the bus, you have to close all the openings, release the o2 into the vehicle and then light a butt. i don't know about your services, but when i was working we're in and out of the truck a hundred times a day and i don't remember ever duct taping the vents shut.

that's what i mean earlier by a myth. sure, you can get jacked up smoking in an o2 rich environment, but you actually have to try to make it happen. its not just a random occurrence.


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## ConcernedEMT (Oct 14, 2008)

Thanks for everyone's input. I will have to go through the OSHA regulations again. 



KEVD18 said:


> one more thing: can anyone explain to me the difference between a bls ambulance and an als ambulance as it pertains to this discussion?



I mentioned we are BLS because while reading through some NJ regulations, there was different sections; one covered basic transport services, another covered BLS ambulances, and another covered ALS ambulances. I just wanted to make sure, if necessary, the right regulation was presented.


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## ConcernedEMT (Oct 14, 2008)

BossyCow said:


> I would review your agencies policy regarding tobacco use. Specifically look at the infection control policy, which OSHA requires and must be reviewed yearly. Aside from the whole smoke, fire, pollutants issue, the act of putting something in your mouth with your hands in the pathogen loaded atmosphere of a rig is stupid!
> 
> What you have is someone who believes that the 'anti-smoking' crowd is unfairly jumping on him about something silly. and obviously has no respect for the rules of your organization or its reputation with the public. I would address the PR issues with your admin. If you put your concerns in writing, they will be kept as part of the legal records of your department. Also, talk to your infection control officer regarding a training on how stupid this is.



I did read through our SOPs and bylaws. It was stated in one section that there is to be no smoking or tobacco use inside the building. It did not say anything about the ambulances. Another section put the responsibility of making sure no one smokes inside the ambulance on the crew members (not worded exactly like this, but nonetheless it prevents tobacco use in the rig). I will have to find out where our infection control policy is and have a look through that.

We did put our concerns in writing to the board of trustees. I also think making an amendment banning smoking in the ambulances to the SOPs and/or bylaws would help us discourage people from smoking in the ambulances.


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## stephenrb81 (Oct 14, 2008)

ConcernedEMT said:


> We did put our concerns in writing to the board of trustees. I also think making an amendment banning smoking in the ambulances to the SOPs and/or bylaws would help us discourage people from smoking in the ambulances.



It might discourage some but there will always be those will do it anyways. Getting caught smoking in an ambulance is pretty much an insta-fire (suspension until board finalizes your termination) at most of the services I have worked for.

(For the record, I am a smoker but don't smoke in an ambulance due to the 'insta-fire' policies)


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## AlaskaEMT (Oct 15, 2008)

How will we ever be considered professional with garbage like this.  Smoking in an ambulance?  Are you fvcking kidding me?


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## BLSBoy (Oct 15, 2008)

This is New Jersey. Why are we acting so shocked. 

I mean, we don't even require 2 EMTs on 911 ambulances if you do it for free. Why should we not allow smoking....:blink::blink:


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## Jon (Oct 15, 2008)

Too true.

PA requires a "No smoking" placard in the front and back of an ambulance... and in every medic car, etc.

Have I seen transport EMT's that chose to smoke while driving? Yes. Do I hate it - YES!


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## bled12345 (Oct 23, 2008)

onwego said:


> In my opinion there should be no smoking in an ambulance, period.  There are oxygen tanks that can be a hazard not to mention the fact that it looks unprofessional as well.  Smoking in vehicles also tends to create an odor that is nearly impossible to get rid of in that size space.




lol at the odour part, in canada smoking in an ambulance would get you fired asap hahaha you can't even smoke on hospital property.  This just made me lol because there are FAR worse smells I can think of smelling in the back of an ambulance than smoke resinated apolstry


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## traumateam1 (Oct 23, 2008)

bled12345 said:


> lol at the odour part, in canada smoking in an ambulance would get you fired asap hahaha you can't even smoke on hospital property.  This just made me lol because there are FAR worse smells I can think of smelling in the back of an ambulance than smoke resinated apolstry



Not to mention the no smoking within 3 meters of ANY public/governmental building entrance. If any medic was caught smoking here, other than in designated areas (as I stated before) they would be going home.


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## tydek07 (Nov 7, 2008)

Even if there is no law... why would anyone do that? I mean come on... why?


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## jochi1543 (Nov 8, 2008)

All our ambulances have a sign banning smoking. Also, I know in Ontario (not sure about here), smoking in workplaces was banned about 2 years ago. 18-wheelers (unless you are the owner/operator), ambulances, etc are therefore included in the list of places with smoking banned.


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## Sasha (Nov 8, 2008)

tydek07 said:


> Even if there is no law... why would anyone do that? I mean come on... why?



Cause its cold outside! (So I hear. Living in Florida, I believe this cold thing is a myth. )


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## Sasha (Nov 8, 2008)

bled12345 said:


> lol at the odour part, in canada smoking in an ambulance would get you fired asap hahaha you can't even smoke on hospital property.  This just made me lol because there are FAR worse smells I can think of smelling in the back of an ambulance than smoke resinated apolstry



There may be far worse smells, but usually those arent damaging to your lungs, like smoke has been proven to be.


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## BossyCow (Nov 10, 2008)

Sasha said:


> Cause its cold outside! (So I hear. Living in Florida, I believe this cold thing is a myth. )



If you would like have that myth-busted I'm sure some of us in the northern latitudes would be happy to assist you with that!


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## rmellish (Nov 10, 2008)

My service just revised their policy. The big change was that smoking must take place out of the view of the public. 

Also, they banned smokeless tobacco from the ambulances and any indoor company property.

The private service I also work for, hasn't said word one about dips in the trucks, front or back. Gotta love professionalism.


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## KEVD18 (Nov 10, 2008)

rmellish said:


> My service just revised their policy. The big change was that smoking must take place out of the view of the public.
> 
> Also, they banned smokeless tobacco from the ambulances and any indoor company property.
> 
> The private service I also work for, hasn't said word one about dips in the trucks, front or back. Gotta love professionalism.



thats just outright ridiculous. i have no complaints about being banned from smoking in the truck. thats logical and reasonable. but having to run and hide? eff that. fire me. i'll go work somewhere else.

as far as dipping: with a patient is a no no but there is no reason to ban dipping in the cab while unoccupied. none. oh, your partner doesnt like the smell? you have absolutely no idea how much i hate 99% of the perfume/cologne on the market and more to the point, how much of it 99% of people use. you ban dipping because of the smell, i want all scented body products on the black too.

wait, you're banning it becuase it "disgusting"? humus brings me right to the limit of vommiting every times i see it. i had a partner for a while who would eat it every shift. if you're going to ban something because it isnt pleasing to everyone, well we have some work to do.


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## JPINFV (Nov 10, 2008)

Sasha said:


> Cause its cold outside! (So I hear. Living in Florida, I believe this cold thing is a myth. )





I unfortunately busted that myth. Coming from Southern California, any time you'd see 50 in a forecast would be a low. Last year in Boston I was seeing *highs* in the 30s... burrr. 30 is a speed limit on a city street, not a forecasted high temperature.


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## rmellish (Nov 10, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> thats just outright ridiculous. i have no complaints about being banned from smoking in the truck. thats logical and reasonable. but having to run and hide? eff that. fire me. i'll go work somewhere else.
> 
> as far as dipping: with a patient is a no no but there is no reason to ban dipping in the cab while unoccupied. none. oh, your partner doesnt like the smell? you have absolutely no idea how much i hate 99% of the perfume/cologne on the market and more to the point, how much of it 99% of people use. you ban dipping because of the smell, i want all scented body products on the black too.
> 
> wait, you're banning it becuase it "disgusting"? humus brings me right to the limit of vommiting every times i see it. i had a partner for a while who would eat it every shift. if you're going to ban something because it isnt pleasing to everyone, well we have some work to do.




I think the issue with the dips was that someone left a spit cup in the cab, which a highly esteemed member of the management knocked over. That's the BS at least. 

The no smoking in public irks me a bit as well, and I can't even claim to be a smoker..


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## Melbourne MICA (Nov 10, 2008)

*No Smoking*



AlaskaEMT said:


> How will we ever be considered professional with garbage like this.  Smoking in an ambulance?  Are you fvcking kidding me?



Not quite the way I might have said things but absolutely on the money.
I can't imagine why there is even a debate going on about this issue.

In my service I would be crucified if I was caught or seen smoking, in uniform, in a rig, whilst on duty, patient on board or not.

MM


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## KEVD18 (Nov 10, 2008)

if the boss was careless enough to knock over a container containing a fluid(regardless of what it was), thats his fault. the discipline should have stopped at leaving trash in a vehicle.

i dont think anyones actually debating smoking in the ambulance. IIRC, im the only one who has actually admitted to doing so and i make no attempt to defend myself. its was a bad habit and shouldnt have been done. 

the debate is how far some companies are going to ban smoking among their employees. smoking in the truck, out without complaint. no smoking in the base, ok i can roll with that. but this "no smoking within four miles of the base or truck or at anytime while in unifrom" is riduculous. i'll go outside the vehicle or building. i'll even go so far as to take a few(read <10) steps away from said company property. but i am not going through all that crap. fire me. i'll go work somewhere else.


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## BLSBoy (Nov 10, 2008)

I dont think that no smoking while in uniform is unreasonable at all. 
It creates an offensive odor, and triggers my allergies. 
Your disgusting habit can take a back seat to myself, and my patients allergies.


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## KEVD18 (Nov 10, 2008)

BLSBoy said:


> I dont think that no smoking while in uniform is unreasonable at all.
> It creates an offensive odor, and triggers my allergies.
> Your disgusting habit can take a back seat to myself, and my patients allergies.



because you're just so special that the entire world should be on bended knee for you.

its that entitled attitude that symbolizes everything thats wrong with this country.

no smoking in the truck and in the base im on board with. but who the heck are you to tell me that i cant go outside and freeze my butt off to have my cigarette?

reasonable restrictions are fine. but banning smoking for the entire shift is so far beyond unreasonable as to be laughable. you want a smoke free work environment, come work in a bar in massachusetts. you wont find one lit cigarette in the joint.


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## BLSBoy (Nov 10, 2008)

And the same, at least for the time being, in Atlantic City casinos. 

When my partner comes back in from smoking, I start sneezing uncontrollably, and I have seen a "bubble kid" have an asthma attack triggered by a nearby smoker, just from his clothing, which reeked of smoke. 

Your habit shall not intrude on my personal well being. 
My sympathy for smokers is just above overweight people who refuse to stop eating McDonalds and excersize.


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## KEVD18 (Nov 10, 2008)

BLSBoy said:


> And the same, at least for the time being, in Atlantic City casinos.
> 
> When my partner comes back in from smoking, I start sneezing uncontrollably, and I have seen a "bubble kid" have an asthma attack triggered by a nearby smoker, just from his clothing, which reeked of smoke.
> 
> ...



then you need to take up an occupation banning smoking, becuase while im happy to step outside to smoke, your personal well being has no business intruding on my *right* to choose to smoke. 

sorry, but your not entitled to limit other people legal actions ot suit your personal medical conditions. its not the job of the general public; nor your employer, partner, collegues or anybody else to change their live to accomodate you. as i said before, that viewpoint is what is wrong with america.

if you need special circumstances to live/work/exist it is up to you to facilitate that by removing yourself from circumstances that cause you problems. self entitled whiners are the ones that expect society to change for them.


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## Melbourne MICA (Nov 10, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> if the boss was careless enough to knock over a container containing a fluid(regardless of what it was), thats his fault. the discipline should have stopped at leaving trash in a vehicle.
> 
> i dont think anyones actually debating smoking in the ambulance. IIRC, im the only one who has actually admitted to doing so and i make no attempt to defend myself. its was a bad habit and shouldnt have been done.
> 
> the debate is how far some companies are going to ban smoking among their employees. smoking in the truck, out without complaint. no smoking in the base, ok i can roll with that. but this "no smoking within four miles of the base or truck or at anytime while in unifrom" is riduculous. i'll go outside the vehicle or building. i'll even go so far as to take a few(read <10) steps away from said company property. but i am not going through all that crap. fire me. i'll go work somewhere else.



The debate about smoking is long over. There are no points of contention left for those of us who do. Yep that's right - I smoke.

Having said this employers need to recognise that some still do and whilst encouraging their staff to quit the right way - non judgementally - some provisions must still be made. This is practical and realistic.

You can't smoke on government property in Victoria - this includes public hospital premises and we are not allowed to smoke within 10m of any ambulance station doorway.  But nobody is telling us we have to quit or leave and we can smoke in uniform. They have left it up to staff to be discrete when in public view.

A bit of common sense, appreciation of everbodys needs and a bit of live and let live goes a long way.

MM


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## BLSBoy (Nov 10, 2008)

Just as you should be wearing nitrile gloves to prevent a bad reaction to people who have a latex sensitivity, you should not be wearing around a shirt that has an odor and carcinogen that can trigger respiratory problems. Why do you think that we need to cut off the engines whe we pull up to the ER? I LOVE coming back to a nice warm truck, but the diesel that is pumped into the ER is offensive and a known carcinogen.


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## KEVD18 (Nov 10, 2008)

sorry, but the wheels just fell off of your argument. my clothing will not give you cancer. it  may carry a smell thats unpleasant to you, but tough cookies. you want to ban the smell of smoke, be prepared for my retaliation. i will take issue with your shampoo, laundry detergent, deodorant, mouthwash, perfume/cologne, food, and anything else you plan to make use of that has an odor. and remember, you opened the door to banning olifactory offenses.

you have no right to to impose your medical problems on my existence. if you have a problem, it is up to you and you alone to deal with that problem.


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## BLSBoy (Nov 10, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> sorry, but the wheels just fell off of your argument. my clothing will not give you cancer. it  may carry a smell thats unpleasant to you, but tough cookies. you want to ban the smell of smoke, be prepared for my retaliation. i will take issue with your shampoo, laundry detergent, deodorant, mouthwash, perfume/cologne, food, and anything else you plan to make use of that has an odor. and remember, you opened the door to banning olifactory offenses.



Spoken like a true blue, bitter addict. 

I would love it if you would. I would stop showing, brushing my teeth, washing my clothes, and only go to restraunts that you would approve of. 

Its not just olfactory senses, cigarette smoke is a KNOWN carcinogen, like diesel smoke. 

If you can't not smoke for your shift, you need help. I'm quite sure the EAP would be able to assist you in finding help kicking the habit.


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## KEVD18 (Nov 10, 2008)

BLSBoy said:


> Spoken like a true blue, bitter addict.
> 
> I would love it if you would. I would stop showing, brushing my teeth, washing my clothes, and only go to restraunts that you would approve of.
> 
> ...




yes, *inhaling* cigarette smoke has been linked to cancer. but it isnt the odor sir, its the particulate matter suspended in the air. the smell has no health properties what soever. if you're not actually inhaling the smoke, you're not getting the carcinogens.

if you were to stop showering, brushing your teeth and washing your clothes; you would then be a public health hazard and could easily be dismissed. then, we could all go back to smoking.

of course im an addict. ive been smokign a pack a day for almost 10 years. i dont need help quiting, as i have no interest in doing so. thats irrelevant. what is relevant is that your personal medical problems are not my problem.


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## BLSBoy (Nov 10, 2008)

Then why do we bother to wash our bunker gear every 6 months, and after every structure fire?
There is no smoke left, but the residue that the smoke leaves behind is methyl ethyl bad stuff. For structure, car, brush fires or cig smoke. 

You truely are a bitter individual when it comes to this. If you can not face the fact that you have a disguisting habit, one that produces such odors that offend your coworkers, and could cause adverse affects for them or your patients, then you are either ignorant, or arrogant. 

Most workplaces have something written into the rules saying something along the lines of it shall be an area free of offensive odors and/or material. Usually within reason. Most people wear conservative cologne, and will avoid eating certain food when people who are allergic to it are around (eg seafood, peanuts, etc)

Suck it up buttercup, this is the 21st century, its so passe to smoke now.


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## KEVD18 (Nov 10, 2008)

BLSBoy said:


> Then why do we bother to wash our bunker gear every 6 months, and after every structure fire?
> There is no smoke left, but the residue that the smoke leaves behind is methyl ethyl bad stuff. For structure, car, brush fires or cig smoke.
> 
> You truely are a bitter individual when it comes to this. If you can not face the fact that you have a disguisting habit, one that produces such odors that offend your coworkers, and could cause adverse affects for them or your patients, then you are either ignorant, or arrogant.
> ...




you wash your bunkers after every fire? wow.

im not bitter at all. i just hate self entitled whiners. you think its all about you. you think because you have asthma, nobody should smoke in the same state or withing 12hrs of being in your presence. bottom line, you want the entire world to conform to you and i think that attitude is disgusting.

free of offensive odors? where do you come up with this crap? passe to smoke? try that argument in virginia.

you're pathetic becuase you think you can impose your will on everybody else. i would have paid your wages for the short time you were there to have you try this argument at one of the companies i have worked for. we figured it out one day. 96% of the people in that house smoked. we smoked everywhere. the house, the bay, the trucks, everywhere. it would have been hillarious to have you try to convert all of us.

give it a rest. your an anti smoker. we get it. your opinion has been noted and ignored.


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## VentMedic (Nov 10, 2008)

KEVD18 said:


> yes, *inhaling* cigarette smoke has been linked to cancer. but it isnt the odor sir, its the particulate matter suspended in the air. the smell has no health properties what soever. if you're not actually inhaling the smoke, you're not getting the carcinogens.


 
You are correct there but at least people exposed to carcinogens may have time on their side in some cases.  

However, people, including your patients, who have any form of reactive airway disease may not be so lucky.  These people may have gone out of their way to avoid odors that will trigger their reactions only to find the person who is supposed to help them is actually going to do them the most harm.


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## alphatrauma (Nov 10, 2008)

Hastings said:


> How absurd.
> 
> Just get out of the ambulance, walk a few feet away, and smoke in whatever parking lot you're parked in.
> 
> Shouldn't be smoking in an ambulance for a million different reasons.



Agreed

I actually fail to see how there is any question concerning this matter, or why there would need to be any regulations prohibiting it... common sense ought to prevail here.

Healthcare setting... smoking... hmmmm :unsure:

I guess you have ignorant ***** no matter where you go. Reminds me of many ER nights, as patients/visitors would stand right in front of the Emergency main entrance puffing away... with the "No Smoking" sign right next to them.


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## KEVD18 (Nov 10, 2008)

i dont take issue with walking a few feet from the bus to smoke, or going outside the house. thats not a problem. its inconvienent, but the cost of doing business in todays world.

but mr self entitled wants smokers to give up their habit entirely for the entire shift with him, which is unreasonable and laughable.


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## traumateam1 (Nov 10, 2008)

*Alright, take 5.*

This debate is really going no where but in circles.

People smoke, people wear cologne. Both are offensive to some people, both cause allergic reactions to some people. Be respectful for your patients. When I go to work, I make sure my uniform isn't stinky, and I put on some deodorant. No cologne. If you smoke, fine.. we wont hold that against you, after all who are we to judge? But maybe put on a jacket (if you live somewhere cold, or cool) when you go outside, stand so the wind blows the smoke away from your direction and not into you. 
If you wear cologne than don't overdo it. Put on some to smell pretty for your dying pts and other than that leave it alone. 

Would I be annoyed if I couldn't breathe and then I have a medic who reeks of smoke or cologne comes and sits right beside me. Of course I would.

I'm not against smoking, or smelling good.. but there has to be some sort of respect for the patients. And I'm not saying anyone in here doesn't have that.. but put yourself in their shoes for a minute. Again, not saying you don't.

I'm not against anyone here, I know a lot of dang good medics who smoke, and a lot of dang good medics who smell good (lol..) but I have heard patients comment on their strong smell a few times. And a few patients who actually wanted to switch medics because their C/C was SOB, and the medics smell was too strong for them.


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