# Trooper vs. Paramedic



## Ridryder911

It is with great shame that I place this. This occurred within my state. I have several friends and co-workers of  the OHP and represent the service proudly. It is unfortunate, that there apperantly is a few bad apples out there. 

From the rumor (although it came from a good source) is that the EMS unit was transporting a patient to the hospital and OHP passed the unit while responding to an assist another LEO. The OHP seeing that the EMS unit did not fully stop, decided to stop the EMS unit. 

I will not state any more as this is still under investigation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KluItc365hU


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## Shishkabob

My initial impression is there is obviously more then JUST this incident, as I have never seen or heard of an officer arresting an EMS person for running a red light.

My money is on the guy has a warrant of some kind.  The trooper was arresting the guy that was in the back of the rig, not the (assumed)driver who he was speaking to.  

But he also allowed the EMT/Medic to finish the transport-- "I told you you're under arrest, now get the patient to the hospital". 




But the fact that he pulled away and tried to fight the cops off instantly puts him in the wrong.  There is no other way around that.



But we'll wait till more info comes out.


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## reaper

Sorry, I don't stop for anyone.

We had a similar incident here. That trooper is now somewhere in the Arctic, writing tickets to polar bears!


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## Ridryder911

reaper said:


> Sorry, I don't stop for anyone.
> 
> We had a similar incident here. That trooper is now somewhere in the Arctic, writing tickets to polar bears!




If you listen carefully, you can hear the sound of a flush. Let's see a Native American Ambulance, staffed with Black Paramedic and family and white troopers? 

I too do not believe this is over yet.


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## reaper

Nothing warranted the attempted arrest. The trooper should be arrested for interfering with EMS. They had a pt in the back, he interfered with the care.

He could have just followed them to the hospital and dealt with it after the pt was transfered over!


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## VentMedic

reaper said:


> Sorry, I don't stop for anyone.


 
I definitely stop long enough to find out the problem and if it is a traffic issue, I ask for it to be deferred until after the transport is over. There have been occasions where we have been stopped for something wrong with the truck such as a loose dual or someone left equipment unsecured. For that I am very greatful.

If the driver is doing something very stupid, for the safety of the patient it might be wise to stop that truck to tell the driver to get control of himself or see if that driver is impaired. BTW, how many drivers of ambulances have been found to be impaired that are behind the wheel? At least the ones we know about because they made the EMS news wire? That is sad. It is a LEO's job to keep everyone safe and EMS is not above the law. Of course when it is minor, the problem should wait until after the transport is finished. This is actually the way it is handled most often. 

Do you know how much stupid stuff people driving ambulances do? When I was supervising I spent more time talking to drivers and PD about tickets for stuff I was embarrassed that someone the company had given the responsibility of their truck and lives of the patient and crew  would risk all of them usually to show off or just lack of better sense.

So no, PD intervening can be very necessary at times.


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## Tincanfireman

Ridryder911 said:


> I too do not believe this is over yet.



Rid, can you please let us know how this turns out when all is said and done?  I'll be amazed if this doesn't end up on the network news by tonight, though...


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## SauceyEMT

Well, as is usually the case, we only see part of the incident. We don't see what prompted the stop, or the altercation. As a police officer, unless some crazy felony occured, I certainly would have allowed the ambulance to continue transport, and then took the medic into custody at the hospital. 

With that said, despite what people may think, it is illegal to resist arrest, whether or not you believe the arrest to be lawful. If you're being placed under arrest, it's not open for debate. Go with the program, and if it turns out later to be unlawful, you'll have recourse, but if everyone who thought they shouldnt be arrested, fought, I'd be dropping people on their heads every day.

In my area, police and EMS work together great, and we rarely have issues. Hell, we are out drinking together regularly. We both have our jobs to do, and when something like this happens, it looks bad for everyone. 

Both the Troopers and medics made poor decisions here, but as is usually the case, based on partial information, and general dislike for police, the Troopers will likely shoulder the blame, whether or not it is fact correct.


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## SauceyEMT

reaper said:


> *Nothing warranted the attempted arrest*. The trooper should be arrested for interfering with EMS. They had a pt in the back, he interfered with the care.
> 
> *He could have just followed them to the hospital and dealt with it after the pt was transfered over*!



While I agree that he could have dealt with it at the hospital, neither you or I know what precipitated the stop. Don't pretend to know what triggered everything that happened. 

The problem is that every profession seems to stick to their own, whether or not they're correct. Firefighters do it, cops do it, and EMS do it. Everyone makes excuses for their own. If a firefighter gets in the ****, his peers excuse it, it's the same everywhere, but it doesnt make it right.


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## ClarkKent

Please do keep us posted on the out come of this




Tincanfireman said:


> Rid, can you please let us know how this turns out when all is said and done?  I'll be amazed if this doesn't end up on the network news by tonight, though...


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## mikie

*Whats will all the Police/EMS tension lately?!*

And since when did cops start putting their hands around people's necks??  Anyone else notice that?

On a side note...great videographer:


> I got you some evidence, that's all


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## reaper

SauceyEMT said:


> While I agree that he could have dealt with it at the hospital, neither you or I know what precipitated the stop. Don't pretend to know what triggered everything that happened.
> 
> The problem is that every profession seems to stick to their own, whether or not they're correct. Firefighters do it, cops do it, and EMS do it. Everyone makes excuses for their own. If a firefighter gets in the ****, his peers excuse it, it's the same everywhere, but it doesnt make it right.



I don't care what warranted the stop! He had a pt in the back and that is first priority.


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## VentMedic

reaper said:


> I don't care what warranted the stop! He had a pt in the back and that is first priority.


 
And if the driver was doing something stupid that was not caught on camera, that LEO has a responsibility not only to the public but to that patient in back. If there was a complaint about that ambulance called in, that LEO has a responsibility to investigate, again for the safety of the public and that patient. I have seen too much stupid stuff happen at the fault of the driver's lack of common or good sense that can easily endanger the crew and the patient. Quite possibly if some in EMS would stop making excuses and not be afraid to admit when their partners are a little unsafe to be with for driving or substance abuse reasons, we might have a few less MVCs involving ambulances.  Less patients might even die from ambulance collisions.


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## reaper

Then they follow them to the hospital. Radio in to their dispatch. There are plenty of ways to deal with any problem.

I am not defending what the EMS crew did, I don't know. I will also not defend the troopers. Video evidence alone, shows they went over board.


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## VentMedic

reaper said:


> Then they follow them to the hospital. Radio in to their dispatch. There are plenty of ways to deal with any problem.
> 
> I am not defending what the EMS crew did, I don't know. I will also not defend the troopers. Video evidence alone, shows they went over board.


 
We don't know what happened prior to the time of the video.

We don't know what the LEO found on when he ran a DL check.

We don't know how many violations this driver has had.

We don't know if he was impaired in some way especially with his combativeness.

We do not know all of the conversation and what the LEO may have discovered to lead him to make the arrest. The driver could even have been armed since we have already heard about that from another thread. 

This appears to be a little more than a traffic stop.

This video was done from a lay person's perspective with another agenda. 

The LEO also may have had a concern for his own safety with people jumping in and out of the ambulance. 

If this driver knows he is going to jail or may have a previous arrest warrant out on him, do you think he is going to drive "safely" to the hospital with this patient? 

Too many unknowns but by the way the driver was fighting, I would be in favor of the LEOs.

If this driver was not driving an ambulance, he probably would have been in cuffs long before it got as far as it did.

Having an EMT patch does not give you the right to hit a Police Officer.


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## reaper

VentMedic said:


> We don't know what happened prior to the time of the video.
> 
> We don't know what the LEO found on when he ran a DL check.
> *Nothing on a DL check will warrant the behavior!*
> We don't know how many violations this driver has had.
> *Again, Does not warrant behavior!*
> We don't know if he was impaired in some way especially with his combativeness.
> *Must not have been, since they were allowed to continue!*
> We do not know all of the conversation and what the LEO may have discovered to lead him to make the arrest. The driver could even have been armed since we have already heard about that from another thread.
> *Again, doubt that, since they let him go!*
> This appears to be a little more than a traffic stop.
> *We agree on that!*
> This video was done from a lay person's perspective with another agenda.
> *I see nothing wrong with the video!*
> 
> The LEO also may have had a concern for his own safety with people jumping in and out of the ambulance.
> *May have been!*
> If this driver knows he is going to jail or may have a previous arrest warrant out on him, do you think he is going to drive "safely" to the hospital with this patient? *Again, doubt that was it, since he was let go!*
> Too many unknowns but by the way the driver was fighting, I would be in favor of the LEOs.
> *I would fight to, if they were interfering with pt care.*
> 
> If this driver was not driving an ambulance, he probably would have been in cuffs long before it got as far as it did.
> *Probably!*
> Having an EMT patch does not give you the right to hit a Police Officer.* I saw nothing in the video, where he hit the trooper??*




Again, it could have been handled differently all around. I personally don't agree with the way LEO handled the situation from the start.


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## reaper

> Officials say OHP troopers became upset after the paramedic failed to yield while the troopers were rushing to a call of their own.



Here is a quote from the article. So they were upset that a unit running code to the hospital, would not yield for them. Throws out all the worries, that they were driving eraticly. The troopers could have just passed them!


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## VentMedic

My mistake it was the other attendant that go into the physical scuffle.

The video did not show everything. Could the one holding the camera chose NOT to show all? There were several seconds we did not see because the camera was aimed at the ground.



> Too many unknowns but by the way the driver was fighting, I would be in favor of the LEOs.
> *I would fight to, if they were interfering with pt care.*


 
Fight for your patient? Against the PD? I guess this could be another example for Melclin as to how EMS gets along with others by violence.

Ever hear of scene safety? You do not become the aggressor and "fight" someone carrying a gun especially if they have a badge. That would be extremely poor judgment on your part and would be of no benefit to your patient.

Of course, if you had a gun, would you have pulled it on this officer and demanded to carry on your way?



reaper said:


> Here is a quote from the article. So they were upset that a unit running code to the hospital, would not yield for them. Throws out all the worries, that they were driving eraticly. The troopers could have just passed them!


 
Why were they running code to the hospital?  Were they behind schedule?  

What type of road was it?  Would they have been able to pass safely without endangering themselves and the ambulance?  We don't know how fast the ambulance was going either.

What is with all the negativity toward PD?

Don't they also pull over if they see you coming?  Won't most even guard an intersection for you?  Don't they deserve a little respect also?


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## reaper

By fight, I mean resist. I would explain the situation to the trooper and if he did not understand, then he would get a supervisor there and I would explain it to them. If then and only then, they did not seem to get it. Yes, I would fight the man with the badge. I do not stand back for brutality issues. They have became more rampant lately.

You know that there has been many situations lately, where the god complex has led some officers to over react. They are there to enforce the law, not make their own and not pass judgement.


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## VentMedic

reaper said:


> You know that there has been many situations lately, *where the god complex has led some officers to over react.* They are there to enforce the law, not make their own and not pass judgement.


 
And we don't have that in EMS?

Read the threads on the forums.  

How many have posted that they believe they are ENTITLED to a free pass from the law whether they are in the ambulance or POV because of their EMT patch?  How many wear their "t-shirts" 24/7 thinking it will get them extra perks everywhere they go?


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## reaper

Never said we do not have it in EMS, I see it all the time. We need to make sure that it is not happening in any of these professions, period.


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## mycrofft

*See, if they were armed...*

This is a keyhole look. The neck grab on an erect subject puts them off balance, throat exposure will instinctively slow or stop a pugnacious response (old military training trick, thumb or baton end under the chin and lift without striking). It does pose danger of injuring the subject if they fall or lunge.

As a side note, did you notice the increasing volume and numbers of bystanders? Now when people get in trouble cell phones summon gaggles of bystanders, often supportive and defensive of one party. Ugly and fast.


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## ClarkKent

http://www.emsresponder.com/web/online/Top-EMS-News/Scuffle-Between-Oklahoma-Troopers--Medic-Caught-on-Tape/1$9591
Found some more information on the video.


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## Shishkabob

I think this is the part some of you "I hate cops" people are missing.


It doesn't matter what you think is a right and wrong arrest.  It really doesn't.  If they want to arrest you, you have ABSOLUTLEY NO recourse against such in the field.  Wait until court.  If you resist, you deserve what you get.



The officers told the medic/emt that he needs to take the patient to the hospital and THEN he would be arrested.  The EMT stuck his finger in the cops face and tried to fight his way back in to the truck.  No matter how you view it, THAT IS WRONG.  He is lucky the cops didnt change their mind and cuff him then and there.


The cops obviously DID have the patients interest in mind because they didn't force abandonment.


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## mycrofft

*I work for a sheriff's dept. by choice.*

This particular instance resists further intelligent  discussion until more is known, and, like the "chemical weapon woman" a number of years back, the truth will be swept under the tables in the courtrooms.

As a catalyst for general discussion, once again we are hearing from the uncritical lovers and unloving critics. Considering the shrieking bystanders gathering on the scene, this is more than just a LE versus ambulance issue.

By the way, the followup article cited says the pt was treated and released. (Code three for that? Lucky lady, with her son riding in the ambulance with her, too).

PS: local Okfuskee Couinty News just basically reopeats article cited above.


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## fortsmithman

Linuss said:


> I think this is the part some of you "I hate cops" people are missing.
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter what you think is a right and wrong arrest.  It really doesn't.  If they want to arrest you, you have ABSOLUTLEY NO recourse against such in the field.  Wait until court.  If you resist, you deserve what you get.
> 
> 
> 
> The officers told the medic/emt that he needs to take the patient to the hospital and THEN he would be arrested.  The EMT stuck his finger in the cops face and tried to fight his way back in to the truck.  No matter how you view it, THAT IS WRONG.  He is lucky the cops didnt change their mind and cuff him then and there.
> 
> 
> The cops obviously DID have the patients interest in mind because they didn't force abandonment.


In most places whether the arrest is justified or not you can not resist if you do you are charged with obstructing a peace officer(that's what it's called here in Canada) .  It used to be like that here in the NWT but a year or so ago a NWT supreme court justice hearing a case ruled that before the charge of obstructing a peace officer could be laid the arrest itself must be valid so here if the arrest is bogus the LEO cannot arrest someone for obstruction.


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## Afflixion

Both parties were in the wrong no one can refute that. I have been pulled over by Border Patrol while running a code. We picked the patient up near the fence line and apparently set off their sensors there, originally the BP agent pulled up behind us L&S and I told my driver to throw on his 4-ways (to let him know we acknowledged his presence and intent) and continue code 3 and we'd deal with it once we got to the hospital but the BP agent had other things in mind as he passed us and pulled in his vehicle in front of ours. So naturally we stopped while I was still working the code my driver got out to see what the BP agent wanted and to inform him we were working a code from what my driver told me he insisted that we open the back of the truck and let him search it for illegal immigrants my driver then informed him it would be a violation of HIPAA and he would be interfering with patient care and the BP agent still refused us passage the only reason why we got to him to wait until we got to the hospital on the matter was because a TX state trooper happen to drive up and force the BP agent to wait. Upon getting to the hospital we took the patient into the ED after the BP agent tried to question him (he was unconscious) Then the agent tried to arrest us for not halting in a timely manner or something like that it eventually blew away we never got arrested (thanks to the state trooper who helped us out) but that was just a giant Charlie-foxtrot. My service filed a formal complaint against that agent never found out what happened to him though if anything. Basically moral of the story is do what your told by LEOs if your in the right no harm will come of you. If that trooper didn't drive past we would've had the agent call his supervisor to come down...all in all it was a lengthy process that could've resulted in the pt's death but thankfully it didn't.


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## mycrofft

*What if the medic in the video was armed?*

Whole NEW dynamic.


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## mikie

mycrofft said:


> Whole NEW dynamic.


Way to open a whole new can of worms!


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## Shishkabob

mycrofft said:


> What if the medic in the video was armed?  Whole NEW dynamic.



We'd be less one idiot?


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## el Murpharino

At 1:13, when cameraman when going around the ambulance to see the driver talk to a trooper, the side door was closed.  At 1:29 it was open, and at 1:44 there was several troopers outside of it pointing into the door saying "You're under arrest".  Unfortunately we didn't see what transpired in those 20-30 seconds.  This is definitely one of those situations where the whole picture would have helped...but either way, it's something that could have been better handled by both ends.  I'm bet had the patient been the mother of one of those troopers that they wouldn't want an ambulance wasting time one the side of the road arguing who failed to yield to who.


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## bstone

I think it is illegal to interfere with an ambulance crew while they are actively involved in patient care.

The only person who needs to be charged is this officer. He needs to have his badge, gun and pole up his *** taken away and never, ever put in the position of authority ever again. Period.


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## emt_angel25

honestly i am floored. while driving an ambulance has its benefits it does not mean that we can drive how we want when we want. if that officer thought there was a need for the truck to be stopped he had every right. HOWEVER, not while the ambulance was in transport to the hospital. He could have just as easily followed the rig to the hospital and taken care of it AFTER pt care was transfered to the staff there. its truly a shame that it played out the way it did and that it was on a public road where everyone could see how un-professional that all was.


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## vquintessence

Linuss said:
			
		

> My money is on the guy has a warrant of some kind.





Linuss said:


> We'd be less one idiot?



Are you basing these guesses on a gut feeling or something more substantial?  Do you believe the OHP knew that a felon was working on the truck and  they just sat on the information... hoping to stumble upon him some point later in the day?



			
				Linuss said:
			
		

> you deserve what you get



Sometimes, but like you eluded too earlier on this topic... lets let the jury or judge make the final verdict.  Hopefully the conversation before and after the video can shed some light on actual dialogue where the arresting officer explained the circumstances behind his decision to arrest one of the paramedics.



			
				Linuss said:
			
		

> The cops obviously DID have the patients interest in mind because they didn't force abandonment.



Did the OHP have the divine foresight to know that the ambulance responding Code had a non-critical pt?  Odds are in the OHP's favor the pt wasn't but still, the question remains valid.



			
				Linuss said:
			
		

> I think this is the part some of you "I hate cops" people are missing.



What has been said on this topic to give you that impression?  Questioning authorities decision or processes doesn't equate to being a "snot nosed liberal" or "cop hater"


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## ClarkKent

If we were able to see what happened and the officer was acting illegal, then yes I am 100% behind you.  But there is still WAY to many unknowns here

I do not see any of the lights on the ambulance, so there is no way of knowing if there were running a code or not.  Plus the pt. is talking, and the EMT does *not *have any gloves or *blood *on him, so I would *assume* she is stable at the time.  But what do I know, I have not even taken my NREMT just yet.  





bstone said:


> I think it is illegal to interfere with an ambulance crew while they are actively involved in patient care.
> 
> The only person who needs to be charged is this officer. He needs to have his badge, gun and pole up his *** taken away and never, ever put in the position of authority ever again. Period.


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## Shishkabob

vquintessence said:


> Are you basing these guesses on a gut feeling or something more substantial?  Do you believe the OHP knew that a felon was working on the truck and  they just sat on the information... hoping to stumble upon him some point later in the day?



You physically fight with a uniformed cop, and you're an idiot.  There are no two ways about that.



> Did the OHP have the divine foresight to know that the ambulance responding Code had a non-critical pt?  Odds are in the OHP's favor the pt wasn't but still, the question remains valid.


  I don't see anywhere in any official source where it says the rig was going code.  That was only brought up by a forumer here.  Therefor, if it wasn't going code and didn't stop, even more of an idiotic move, don't you agree?





> What has been said on this topic to give you that impression?  Questioning authorities decision or processes doesn't equate to being a "snot nosed liberal" or "cop hater"



Just like there are the "Blame America first" group, there is always the "Blame Cops first" group.  In every single forum.  In every single thread.  It's a broad general statement.


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## fortsmithman

Was the ambulance running with lights and sirens, lights only or no lights.  in my service for non critical calls we run without lights and sirens.  If the ambulance did the same running without lights and sirens then they are required to yield to another emergency vehicle running with lights and sirens.


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## bstone

The news article said it was a heat exhaustion call, so they were certainly en route to the ER. They were not going Code 3 as it was not super emergent.


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## VentMedic

Here's an update with the Paramedic's statement.

http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/0509/626636.html

The patient couldn't have been too critical if both attendants left the ambulance.


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## Shishkabob

> Paul Franks was the driver of the ambulance, which was transporting a patient to a hospital in *Prague*



My god! From the US to Europe?!  Talk about overtime!


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## trevor1189

I would really like to know the whole story here. As what this appears to be is insane.

If it were me, "County this Ambulance X, we are en route to X ER, we are being signaled to yield to a police vehicle, please contact the unit and let them know we are en route with a patient. We will not be yielding."

Cop is still signaling pullover, "County this is ambulance X we are now en route to X ER lights and sirens, we will not be delaying patient care."

Frankly I would document the hell out of the whole thing and file a complaint against OHP if this was over a traffic issue.

An ambulance transporting a patient non lights and sirens is still an emergency vehicle. In PA it is discouraged to use L&S en route to the hospital give them the benefit of the doubt. If it is urgent the police can contact the ambulance by radio without forcing them to pull over and stop.


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## 2easy4u

*This is where the cowboy rides away.*

I am sure that I haven't seen all the details on this incident so I can;t really make a for certain comment either way.
If it were me, after the officer informed me of my arrest. I would have advised the officer that since he was the LEO, he now has the responsibility of providing patient care to this patient. I would give a patient report to him and go sit in the cruiser and await my transport to jail.

Neither side handled this as a professional should have. But I think when any of us start thinking we are above the law,we are wrong.


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## VentMedic

trevor1189 said:


> I would really like to know the whole story here. As what this appears to be is insane.
> 
> If it were me, "County this Ambulance X, we are en route to X ER, we are being signaled to yield to a police vehicle, please contact the unit and let them know we are en route with a patient. We will not be yielding."
> 
> Cop is still signaling pullover, "County this is ambulance X we are now en route to X ER lights and sirens, we will not be delaying patient care."
> 
> Frankly I would document the hell out of the whole thing and file a complaint against OHP if this was over a traffic issue.
> 
> An ambulance transporting a patient non lights and sirens is still an emergency vehicle. In PA it is discouraged to use L&S en route to the hospital give them the benefit of the doubt. If it is urgent the police can contact the ambulance by radio without forcing them to pull over and stop.


 

What if the PD's emergency is bigger than your non-emergent transport? Are you going to force them to pass your slower moving vehicle unsafely because you've go a "mine is bigger than yours attitude"? (...referring to the patch of course)

There may be another patient or potential patient involved in their emergency also. 

While this situation could have been handled differently, the two on the ambulance should also own up to the fact they could have done things differently also. Geez, all the OHP wanted to do was get around the ambulance. How many times do EMS providers complain about vehicles not getting out of their way? How many times have EMS providers said those that fail to yeild should be thrown in jail? The OHP could have been speeding to help another ambulance crew in trouble.


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## bstone

I have read the statements by both EMTs and seen the video. The whole story isn't there but we don't need the whole story- a cop interfered with an EMT and ambulance operations while in the treatment of a patient. This is a felony. The cop needs to be fired and brought up on charges. How can we possibly have such people patrolling our streets?


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## medic417

bstone said:


> I have read the statements by both EMTs and seen the video. The whole story isn't there but we don't need the whole story- a cop interfered with an EMT and ambulance operations while in the treatment of a patient. This is a felony. The cop needs to be fired and brought up on charges. How can we possibly have such people patrolling our streets?



Can you show me the law that shows this is a felony?


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## 2easy4u

*This is where the cowboy rides away.*

It certainly looks like there was interference with patient care but resisting a LEO is also wrong. Usually when the medic dumps the patient on the LEO attitudes change. Especially if the patient is bloody or has puked all over everything. The LEO becomes keenly aware that he is out of his environment and backs off.
I, for the life of me cannot understand why the squad was pulled over. The LEO had to know that if time was crucial for him or the patient being transported his actions were not helping. If there was no danger to the public, all of it could have been sorted out after everyone was finished with their call.


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## bstone

medic417 said:


> Can you show me the law that shows this is a felony?



Can you show me a law saying it is not? Are you seriously challenging the idea that it is not a felony to interfere with emergency medical personnel?


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## Shishkabob

bstone said:


> Can you show me a law saying it is not?



Err... that's a bit bass ackwards.



Interfering with EMS personnel can not be more illegal than interfering with police, which is only a misdemeanor.

And even than, police are exempt from many laws when in the act of carrying out their duties (buying illicit drugs anyone?)


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## bstone

medic417 said:


> Can you show me the law that shows this is a felony?



Just to entertain this idea I did the most basic of google searches


> establishes that a person unlawfully interfering with an EMT rendering assistance to a sick or injured person could be charged with a Class E felony.
> http://www.leg.state.nv.us/71st/Minutes/Assembly/JUD/Final/689.html





> 110.040.080  Interfering with Emergency Medical Services Section members prohibited.
> 
> It shall be unlawful for any person to interfere in any way with the members of the Fire Department in the performance of their duties.  (A 25-92 §1; A 26-99 §2)



And for good old Oaklahoma:



> Statutory Authority: 21 O.S. 2001, § 650.4. OUJI-CR 4-20
> 
> ASSAULT AND BATTERY UPON
> 
> EMERGENCY MEDICAL CARE PROVIDER - ELEMENTS


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## DrankTheKoolaid

*re*

Assembly Bill 333:  Prohibits person from interfering with certain emergency medical attendants while rendering assistance. (BDR 15-1061)


Nevada has it on the books.  It is a felony to interfere with certain medical personnel while providing care.  I know california does also.  looking it up also


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## HotelCo

Ridryder911 said:


> If you listen carefully, you can hear the sound of a flush. Let's see a Native American Ambulance, staffed with Black Paramedic and family and white troopers?
> 
> I too do not believe this is over yet.



I sincerely hope this does not become about race, when that is not what it's about.

Was the ambulance coding at the time the LEO came behind them?


----------



## Shishkabob

HotelCo said:


> I sincerely hope this does not become about race, when that is not what it's about.



Anytime it's a white cop and a non-white person, it's ALWAYS about race.  Even if the cop didn't know the person in the back of the ambulance was black, and the driver was white.  He just sensed it!


----------



## HotelCo

Linuss said:


> Anytime it's a white cop and a non-white person, it's ALWAYS about race.  Even if the cop didn't know the person in the back of the ambulance was black, and the driver was white.  He just sensed it!



Unfortunately that seems to be what happens in situations like this.


----------



## Shishkabob

HotelCo said:


> Unfortunately that seems to be what happens in situations like this.



It's always race, the cop abusing his power, the cop making up for being made fun of in school, or the cop just wanting to be an a-hole.


It's never the suspects fault.


----------



## bstone

Linuss said:


> It's always race, the cop abusing his power, the cop making up for being made fun of in school, or the cop just wanting to be an a-hole.
> 
> 
> It's never the suspects fault.



In this case that is highly likely to be deadon.


----------



## Shishkabob

bstone said:


> In this case that is highly likely to be deadon.



Until you can prove that the officers did what they did for any other reason than their job, I suggest not thinking otherwise.

Innocent until proven guilty.  That's what people always yell in these threads, right?


----------



## HotelCo

I still can't find out if they (the ambulance) were coding at the time.


----------



## fortsmithman

Linuss said:


> Until you can prove that the officers did what they did for any other reason than their job, I suggest not thinking otherwise.
> 
> Innocent until proven guilty.  That's what people always yell in these threads, right?


the troopers are innocent till they are proven guilty.  Just as the EMTs are innocent till proven guilty.


----------



## Shishkabob

fortsmithman said:


> the troopers are innocent till they are proven guilty.  Just as the EMTs are innocent till proven guilty.



I saw the medic pull away from the officer after he was told he's under arrest.



Guilty.


----------



## emt_angel25

fortsmithman said:


> Was the ambulance running with lights and sirens, lights only or no lights.  in my service for non critical calls we run without lights and sirens.  If the ambulance did the same running without lights and sirens then they are required to yield to another emergency vehicle running with lights and sirens.



shouldnt matter even if they were running lights and sirens they still need to yeild to the intersection. you cant be guarenteed that other traffic will stop. lights and sirens aside the officer obviously saw something or he wouldnt have stopped the ambulance.  if they were running code to the hospital why did the ambulance driver stop???


----------



## HotelCo

emt_angel25 said:


> shouldnt matter even if they were running lights and sirens they still need to yeild to the intersection. you cant be guarenteed that other traffic will stop. lights and sirens aside the officer obviously saw something or he wouldnt have stopped the ambulance.  if they were running code to the hospital why did the ambulance driver stop???



Unless I'm missing something, they were pulled over because they failed to completely stop as the officer was running code behind them to get to another officer. What intersection are you talking about?


----------



## JPINFV

Linuss said:


> I saw the medic pull away from the officer after he was told he's under arrest.
> 
> 
> 
> Guilty.



So then he was arrested after the transport was completed? Oh, yea, the officer got on the phone with the DA and I imagine that the DA said something along the lines of, "Arrest a paramedic for this? Are you nucking futs?"


----------



## Shishkabob

Yes, because police call the DA to see if they should arrest someone...


----------



## VentMedic

HotelCo said:


> I still can't find out if they (the ambulance) were coding at the time.


 
I would really hope they weren't running L&S since the ambulance crew knew there were 4 or 5 cars following them with family members...besides those riding the ambulance.

http://static.ktul.com/documents/emtstatement_0509.pdf

This in itself can make it difficult for another emergency vehicle to pass.  

As well, they all stopped and exited their cars when the ambulance was stopped.  This can make for a very volatile situation for one officer. We've already seen the "excited" person with the camera.


----------



## amberdt03

emt_angel25 said:


> shouldnt matter even if they were running lights and sirens they still need to yeild to the intersection. you cant be guarenteed that other traffic will stop. lights and sirens aside the officer obviously saw something or he wouldnt have stopped the ambulance.  if they were running code to the hospital why did the ambulance driver stop???




i don't think that they were running code to the hospital. i'm interested in seeing the dash cam of the cruiser if and when it gets released. kinda curious to see why the medic in the back is the one getting arrested and not the driver


----------



## JPINFV

Linuss said:


> Yes, because police call the DA to see if they should arrest someone...



1. Well, what changed at the hospital?

2. According to the paramedic's statement, he was told that a warrant might be issued in a few days, but the officer wasn't going to arrest him after consulting with the DA. 


http://static.ktul.com/documents/emtstatement_0509.pdf


I've gotta ask, what's with the "Cops can't do anything wrong" attitude? It's almost like you've already come to the decision that the cop was completely in his right with every action that he did and that the paramedic was in the wrong, regardless of what went on.


----------



## Shishkabob

"The car was traveling with emergency lights only.   I did not hear the siren"

So... which is it?  Was it lights only or was it L&S but he just couldnt hear the sirens for some reason (radio?)


"When the car was 3 feet from the bumper"


This I find really hard to believe, and simple look at the dash cam will be able to prove one way or another.



God, that whole statement wreaks of lawyer and playing to the media.


----------



## JPINFV

So again, if the officer had a case, why not arrest him? What changed when officer 606 called the DA?


----------



## VentMedic

JPINFV said:


> So again, if the officer had a case, why not arrest him? What changed when officer 606 called the DA?


 
The family member probably had already sent the video to the news station before they reached the hospital to be on a "Breaking News Story".


----------



## Shishkabob

JPINFV said:


> 2. According to the paramedic's statement, he was told that a warrant might be issued in a few days, but the officer wasn't going to arrest him after consulting with the DA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The medics statement is pure hearsay and as such, has no bearing on me or my decision as such.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've gotta ask, what's with the "Cops can't do anything wrong" attitude? It's almost like you've already come to the decision that the cop was completely in his right with every action that he did and that the paramedic was in the wrong, regardless of what went on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because people, like you, are more than willing to blame the cop and not admit that the medic did anything wrong.  That's a false view that needs to be corrected, and if I am the only one that stands up for a cop (which I'm not, thankfully) than so be it.
> 
> 
> Looking strictly at the video, the cop WAS in his right.  The medic pulled away when told he was under arrest.  If anyone says that's anything other than stupid, then you have some explaining to do, and might I suggest doing a ride along with an officer sometime?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JPINFV said:
> 
> 
> 
> So again, if the officer had a case, why not arrest him? What changed when officer 606 called the DA?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One example;  I was riding with an officer who had detained someone and found a crap load of cocaine on them.  He was about to do an arrest when a call of a drive-by came on the radio.  Drug dealer got cut loose (sans cocaine) and off we went to a much more important call.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## JPINFV

Where did I say that the medic was without blame? 


Still fails to explain why the arrest never actually occured.


----------



## HotelCo

Linuss said:


> "The car was traveling with emergency lights only.   I did not hear the *sound of a* siren"



Fixed the quote. 

Cops around here often travel with just their Lights on.


----------



## Shishkabob

JPINFV said:


> Where did I say that the medic was without blame?



It may be my laziness or lack of sleep, but I have yet to see any chastising comment from you about the medic and his actions.


----------



## Shishkabob

HotelCo said:


> Fixed the quote.
> 
> Cops around here often travel with just their Lights on.



Code 2.5... often done when you get close to a volatile situation, such as a man with a gun, and you don't want to alert them to your proximity by blaring your sirens like a mad man.     Though it is against many agencies policies, it's still done.  They say either L&S or nothing.


----------



## HotelCo

Linuss said:


> Code 2.5... often done when you get close to a volatile situation, such as a man with a gun, and you don't want to alert them to your proximity by blaring your sirens like a mad man.     Though it is against many agencies policies, it's still done.  They say either L&S or nothing.



How do you know that wasn't the case here? Just because it's policy doesn't mean it's followed.


----------



## Shishkabob

HotelCo said:


> How do you know that wasn't the case here? Just because it's policy doesn't mean it's followed.



I know it's more often not followed than is followed.


----------



## JPINFV

Linuss said:


> It may be my laziness or lack of sleep, but I have yet to see any chastising comment from you about the medic and his actions.



So I have to explicitly mention something or else you start to assume things that don't exist.


Ok, for the record:

The cop is a complete and total tool and tard for pulling over an ambulance for failure to yield. Like it has never taken a few moments for a car to pull over before in that officer's life. 

The cop is a complete tool and tard for not handling this at the hospital instead of waiting for the transport to end.

The cop most likely has zero case or else the DA wouldn't have told him to let the paramedic go. I doubt that it's standard practice to let suspects who assault officers just go free. 

The paramedic is an idiot for trying to pull away.


----------



## Shishkabob

Was that so hard?



I'd take being a tool over a criminal any day.


----------



## JPINFV

Isn't calling someone who hasn't even been arrested yet a criminal a little premature?


----------



## Shishkabob

JPINFV said:


> Isn't calling someone who hasn't even been arrested yet a criminal a little premature?



Not at all, as it doesn't take being arrested to be a criminal.


----------



## fortsmithman

Linuss said:


> I saw the medic pull away from the officer after he was told he's under arrest.
> 
> 
> 
> Guilty.


Guilty mean proven in a court of law.  Perhaps rid could tell us what the legislation is in oklahoma regarding EMS personnel, and what the penalties are regarding obstruction of said personnel.

98% of all peace officers are good people in the job for the right reason.  Unfortunately there are 2% of all LEOs that squeak through the background and psychological checks.  I come from a family of LEOs.  I have relatives in the RCMP and natural resource enforcement.  The trooper  should have just continued on to assist the other officer who they were enroute to assist.


----------



## BruceD

Neither a badge nor a patch makes a person perfect.

It is reprehensible that either party acted the way they did.

The public depends on police, firemen, and medics to be a calming factor on scenes.  This sort of thing degrades the public's respect for all the professions, because when they see this, they don't see individuals, they see uniforms.

Whichever way it comes out, I hope charges are pressed on the responsible party.  When occurrences such as this happen, the actions and punishments should not be swept under a rug.


----------



## daedalus

reaper said:


> Nothing warranted the attempted arrest. The trooper should be arrested for interfering with EMS. They had a pt in the back, he interfered with the care.
> 
> He could have just followed them to the hospital and dealt with it after the pt was transfered over!



I agree. Arrest the officers for interfering with emergency personnel.


----------



## Shishkabob

daedalus said:


> I agree. Arrest the officers for interfering with emergency personnel.



For doing their job, and allowing the ambulance to get back underway when they determined that it would be just as good to let the ambulance finish it's transport?




Mmmkay....


----------



## daedalus

Linuss said:


> You physically fight with a uniformed cop, and you're an idiot.  There are no two ways about that.
> 
> I don't see anywhere in any official source where it says the rig was going code.  That was only brought up by a forumer here.  Therefor, if it wasn't going code and didn't stop, even more of an idiotic move, don't you agree?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just like there are the "Blame America first" group, there is always the "Blame Cops first" group.  In every single forum.  In every single thread.  It's a broad general statement.


Thats what you get for having the power to detain and kill, you get critical eyes on you all the time. They know that going in. And they know that everyone has a video camera in their pockets now in days, and that the public is not going to stand for brutality anymore.

It is always blame cops first.


----------



## daedalus

Linuss said:


> For doing their job, and allowing the ambulance to get back underway when they determined that it would be just as good to let the ambulance finish it's transport?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mmmkay....



They delayed definitive care.


----------



## bstone

JPINFV said:


> So I have to explicitly mention something or else you start to assume things that don't exist.
> 
> 
> Ok, for the record:
> 
> The cop is a complete and total tool and tard for pulling over an ambulance for failure to yield. Like it has never taken a few moments for a car to pull over before in that officer's life.
> 
> The cop is a complete tool and tard for not handling this at the hospital instead of waiting for the transport to end.
> 
> The cop most likely has zero case or else the DA wouldn't have told him to let the paramedic go. I doubt that it's standard practice to let suspects who assault officers just go free.
> 
> The paramedic is an idiot for trying to pull away.



:lol::lol::lol: 
So very true. The medic shouldn't have pulled away, but that's about the only thing he did that might even remotely be considered minorly wrong. The rest was all wrong on the cop, no ifs ands or buts.


----------



## bstone

Linuss said:


> Not at all, as it doesn't take being arrested to be a criminal.



You are absolutely right! Which is why we can call the cop a criminal and feel very justified about it. This cop=criminal!


----------



## Shishkabob

bstone said:


> :lol::lol::lol:
> So very true. The medic shouldn't have pulled away, but that's about the only thing he did that might even remotely be considered minorly wrong. The rest was all wrong on the cop, no ifs ands or buts.



The "only" thing?  Since when is resisting arrest a minor deal?  Do you honestly think resisting arrest is a trivial matter?




bstone said:


> You are absolutely right! Which is why we can call the cop a criminal and feel very justified about it. This cop=criminal!



And what crime did (t)he(y) commit?


----------



## bstone

Linuss said:


> The "only" thing?  Since when is resisting arrest a minor deal?  Do you honestly think resisting arrest is a trivial matter?


The medic didn't resist arrest at all. Don't you think you're in the wrong field? It sounds to me you'd be a lot happier being a cop than an EMT. It seems you've chosen the wrong profession.





> And what crime did (t)he(y) commit?


Interfering with an EMT in the course of his duties. As has already been linked and you have seen, that is a felony in OK.


----------



## ffemt8978

Okay, now that I've removed 20 posts from this thread, I've reopened for now.

But a word of warning...if I have to close it again, some people are going to be getting a 10 day vacation from the forum.






_
** I haven't watched the video or read any of the new reports yet, so please don't assume that my "star" means I'm siding with the LEO or the medic for that matter.**_


----------



## daedalus

Sometimes passion towards a subject matter leads to this type of thread deterioration. I understand it that Linus probably has friends/family in Law enforcement, and the rest of us understand that need to provide for our patients without interruption. No harm in ether. However I think a few of us left objectivity at the door. Looking back, JP's post is probably on target. The cop is a tool for trying to arrest the attending paramedic, and the medic is a tool for putting up a physical fight.


----------



## EDAC

Very interesting story, to say the least. I cannot speak from the EMS side of things, but I can speak on the LE side of things, I worked for a large Dept many years ago, in the mid 80's. I can tell you some of the cops are more crooked than the criminals that they arrest. A very big majority had egos that wer bigger than many would imagine. I also knew many who were dedicated professionals that had their hearts in the right place. One of the biggest reasons I left was that i could not stand by and watch the hypocrisy. An example was we had a program where citizens could call the station and leave their names and addresses, when they would go on an extended vacation, and we would make a point of checking there homes. Well those same officers who swore to serve and protect were taking the opportunity to break into the homes and rob them. It went on for many months until they were caught and arrested. 9 yes 9 were involved and eventually given light sentances, for breaking the trust of the public. Cop parties anyone, yea, cops drinking all night long and driving home, cops driving across the state lines to buy illegal fireworks for the 4th of July, it still goes on today. I have a close family member who participates, and yes he is a cop. Quotas anyone? no they do not exist, officially, we had a saying 10 by 10, that's 10 traffic citations by 10:00, guys would put 10 bucks into a kitty, an whoever wrote the most citations by 10:00 won the pot. There was another one that was interesting, another contest, money in the pot, and the one who had the most girls phone numbers by the end of shift, in the girls handwriting won the pot. Remember many cops are young men, and are still very immature. So yes these things and many others which I would not even say here went on, most were much worse than detailed above. Everyone just kind of did not see things, or said I don't want to know about it. I could not take it, I had to leave, I thought people became cops to protect and serve, granted some did, but many did not. It is a very empowering feeling to put on that badge and strap on that belt, I used to get an adreneline rush just getting ready for guard mount. 

All cops are not bad, but when I see things like this, I can't help but think that not much has changed in the past 20 years. I still have close relationships with many LE persons, and they for the most part are good people, but even the good ones have a bit of an ego, I just think you can't have that kind of power with out it having some effect on you. Being a cop is a very tough job, and I don't envy those who do it, but many cops have some signifcant emotional problems, and those lead to divorce, abuse, and substance abuse. I know at least 5 now who are alcoholics, and abuse prescription drugs, the goood stuff, Vicodin, Valium, Xanex, and others that are not prescription. One is a family member, and is on a path to who knows where. Anyway those are just a few things I know, i hope it is not widespread, but I have a feeling it probably is, just a gut feeling. Some of them are planning their trip across state for the annual 4th of July party, and asked if I wanted to go. I have not been in many years, I usually just make a lame excuse and say maybe next year. Before anybody askes why I don't rat them out, it would do no good, the line goes up very high, meaning everyone already knows, and just don't care, boys will be boys is basically what I hear.


----------



## JPINFV

Linuss said:


> Not at all, as it doesn't take being arrested to be a criminal.



...then the officer is just as much a criminal since none of his actions could be justified since no arrest occurred. Just saying since, apparently, we're ignoring the entire 'due process' part of the constitution.


----------



## Jon

And we have more info!

A written statement from the paramedic that was treating the patient, courtesy of a local TV station:
http://static.ktul.com/documents/emtstatement_0509.pdf


----------



## medic417

bstone said:


> Can you show me a law saying it is not? Are you seriously challenging the idea that it is not a felony to interfere with emergency medical personnel?



I was just asking for the law.  Thank you for providing it after you got your pantys out of a wad.


----------



## amberdt03

i think nobody should be jumping to conclusions about this situation until the dash cam becomes available. there's way too much missing from the original video and the paramedics statements are one sided. dash cam isn't going to lie. of course it'll probably never get released.


----------



## reaper

Never heard of editing?


----------



## amberdt03

reaper said:


> Never heard of editing?



and you think that the phone video wasn't


----------



## reaper

amberdt03 said:


> and you think that the phone video wasn't



Never!


----------



## amberdt03

reaper said:


> Never!



lol. of course


----------



## Summit

Linuss you are so over the top with your gung-ho pro-LEO stance that you cannot be taken seriously. You seem to be of the deluded opinion that the moment the critical care paramedic pulled away (wrongly), it vindicated the state troopers of all the idiocy they had committed up to that point.

I'll wager that one trooper will be fired for the choke hold if nothing else.


----------



## Lunah

I'm curious to see the dash cam, if it's ever released. I have a feeling that the whole thing just escalated out of control and no one was willing to back down -- tempers flared. (That's based on nothing concrete, of course.) I hope there's some resolution to this situation. The CCEMT-P's statement certainly is persuasively written, I must say. I'd like to hear the other side of the story.


----------



## karaya

Let's look at this logically from the DA's point of view to consider bringing charges against the paramedic.


It is questionable that the highway patrolman was using his siren. Jury could side with the medics that they didn't pull over since they never saw the highway patrol car (until it was on the bumper of the ambulance) nor heard a siren. Plenty of witnesses to testify there was no audible siren.
Tape clearly shows very upset highway patrol taking on medics while patient can be heard crying in background. Jury will show compassion for medics.
Highway patrolman shouts "Your under arrest", but never actually arrests medic. Even when medic returns to meet the highway patrol at the ER to turn himself in, again he is never arrested. Jury will see this as questionable behavior toward the highway patrol and again have compassion for the medics.
Oh, that choke hold on the medic. A black medic mind you, with a white cop choking him while the patient can be heard in the background. Jury will demand the cop be tarred and feathered. Case dismissed.


----------



## amberdt03

karaya said:


> Let's look at this logically from the DA's point of view to consider bringing charges against the paramedic.
> It is questionable that the highway patrolman was using his siren.  Jury could side with the medics that they didn't pull over since they never saw the highway patrol car (until it was on the bumper of the ambulance) nor heard a siren.





> i was riding in the patient compartment seated in the captains chair. as we were passing through the town of Paden i noticed a state patrol car approaching from the rear at a high rate of speed. the cruiser was traveling with lights only; i did not hear the sound of a siren. when the vehicle was approximately three feet from the ambulances rear bumper, i called out to my partner and told him to pull aside because there was a state trooper behind us





now i'm not making any judgements in the case until i see the dash cam

my question is why did the medic in the back wait until the cop was on their tail to tell his partner about the cop running code behind them?

i've had many incidents where i didn't know that someone was running code coming up behind me, but thanks to my partners in the back i was able to get out of their way before they got on my tail.


----------



## mikie

*was that necessary?*



karaya said:


> Oh, that choke hold on the medic. A black medic mind you, with a white cop choking him while the patient can be heard in the background. Jury will demand the cop be tarred and feathered. Case dismissed.



Glad I'm not the only one to notice/think that...


----------



## bstone

VentMedic said:


> We get it already. You hate cops. We have known that for awhile from other threads.
> 
> Could you at least keep the name calling and bashing of LEOs to a minimun or in a statement of a more professional quality that gives what you write some credibility? As your posts are now, you just sound as the above quote from you reads but with the word EMT inserted.



I come from a very long line of cops. Aunts, uncles, cousins- all of them cops. My 1st cousin is the chief of police in a very large town outside Chicago. I was a LE Explorer for 4 years and I was a cop myself serving in a police unit in Israel for 2 years. I was also (until I moved) a member of the IL Police Auxiliary. 

I have a tremendous amount of respect for mature, professional cops. They are the majority of cops out there. 

This punk, however, brings disrespect to all cops, everywhere.


----------



## BruceD

I'm actually a bit surprised that the whole incident didn't progress to something worse.

When I view the video, it appears that the medic's airway is closed off (he points to his throat while making talking motions).

When someone's airway is cut off, it tends to start a massive sympathetic surge through the person being choked, inflating the fight or flight response.

I believe that choke hold is what has many people on here making such a stand for the medic, as almost all of us recognize how we would react in such a situation (if we ourselves were being choked).

I do hope they release the dash cam, if I'm not mistaken, the tapes have audio, video, and show the use of lights or sirens or both.

stay safe all, wait for the information.
Whoever is responsible will assuredly pay a heavy cost.

-B


----------



## Lunah

BruceD said:


> I believe that choke hold is what has many people on here making such a stand for the medic, as almost all of us recognize how we would react in such a situation (if we ourselves were being choked).



That was a BIG medic, too ... when I was initially watching the video, I was half-afraid he was going to lay that little trooper out on the ground after removing his teeth with one punch, which would have been really bad.


----------



## DrankTheKoolaid

*re*

Just read the paramedics statement.  This should be very interesting to see if these officers keep there jobs after this.  Not only did they break the law by assaulting this paramedic while on duty in the course of patient care, they didn't even have the siren going to alert other traffic of there approach.  


Cant wait for this to hit national new's.  Should be quite the public outcry on this one.


----------



## amberdt03

Corky said:


> Just read the paramedics statement.  This should be very interesting to see if these officers keep there jobs after this.  Not only did they break the law by assaulting this paramedic while on duty in the course of patient care, they didn't even have the siren going to alert other traffic of there approach.
> 
> 
> Cant wait for this to hit national new's.  Should be quite the public outcry on this one.



don't forget about the alleged assault on the cop which is also a felony.


----------



## medic417

Corky said:


> Just read the paramedics statement.  This should be very interesting to see if these officers keep there jobs after this.  Not only did they break the law by assaulting this paramedic while on duty in the course of patient care, they didn't even have the siren going to alert other traffic of there approach.
> 
> 
> Cant wait for this to hit national new's.  Should be quite the public outcry on this one.



Already on national news and no public outcry as the public does not care about EMS.  And honestly many consider LE, FF, EMS as all one and the same so if anything they laugh at the lack of professionalism among the ranks.


----------



## Shishkabob

Corky said:


> Just read the paramedics statement.  This should be very interesting to see if these officers keep there jobs after this.  Not only did they break the law by assaulting this paramedic while on duty in the course of patient care, they didn't even have the siren going to alert other traffic of there approach.
> 
> 
> Cant wait for this to hit national new's.  Should be quite the public outcry on this one.



A) Not illegal in any way for a police officer to use proper force to control a situation or initiate an arrest.

B ) How will it be good in any way for this to cause a huge public outcry?  You want MORE people to hate police?


----------



## DrankTheKoolaid

*re*

regardless of our opinions,  the fact that the DA didn't agree with officer's request to arrest him on the spot speaks for itself.  Though i'm sure the DA most likely hasn't encountered nor heard of this in the past and needed to get further legal opinions.  Will be watching for this one closely on the news outlets.

Side note, this story has blown up all over the net.  a google search returned 23,600 hits for "Oklahoma state trooper assaults paramedic"


----------



## bstone

Corky said:


> regardless of our opinions,  the fact that the DA didn't agree with officer's request to arrest him on the spot speaks for itself.  Though i'm sure the DA most likely hasn't encountered nor heard of this in the past and needed to get further legal opinions.  Will be watching for this one closely on the news outlets.



Exactly. If the medic really did anything so wrong worthy of arrest then the DA would have authorized the arrest and charges. Clearly he did not, much to the chagrin of the cop.

Hopefully the DA will immediately file charges against the cop.


----------



## amberdt03

well if they haven't done anything to the medic then they probably won't do anything to the cop cause more than likely they already would have


----------



## DrankTheKoolaid

*re*

I don't think that will be the case, according to the various online news sources the family of the patient are going to 1. press charges for endangering them when they were caused to swerve to avoid the trooper from ramming them and 2. for interfering with the patient's care.

Notice how nobody has mentioned what the "emergency" call the OHP was responding to that was such an emergency that the same trooper was able to end his response to that call to come back and perform these act's.


----------



## amberdt03

yeah for all we know he could have been hauling but cause another medic was getting beat up


----------



## medichopeful

Corky said:


> Notice how nobody has mentioned what the "emergency" call the OHP was responding to that was such an emergency that the same trooper was able to end his response to that call to come back and perform these act's.



I believe I heard (and I could be wrong) that the trooper(s) were responding to an officer assistance call.  If that is the case, I can understand why his tempers were flared.  Not excusing his actions (and not saying they were wrong, either.  I don't know the whole story), but that would definitely throw in that extra variable.

Eric


----------



## amberdt03

medichopeful said:


> I believe I heard (and I could be wrong) that the trooper(s) were responding to an officer assistance call.  If that is the case, I can understand why his tempers were flared.  Not excusing his actions (and not saying they were wrong, either.  I don't know the whole story), but that would definitely throw in that extra variable.
> 
> Eric



i think i heard that too, but none of the cops that i know would have pulled over an ambulance rather than go help out another officer


----------



## medichopeful

amberdt03 said:


> i think i heard that too, but none of the cops that i know would have pulled over an ambulance rather than go help out another officer



None of the cops I know would, either.  Which makes the situation even stranger and more screwed up.  Maybe the help call was canceled?


----------



## amberdt03

medichopeful said:


> None of the cops I know would, either.  Which makes the situation even stranger and more screwed up.  Maybe the help call was canceled?



maybe. that would explain why he passed them and then doubled back to pull them over


----------



## Jon

medic417 said:


> I was just asking for the law.  Thank you for providing it after you got your pantys out of a wad.


Medic417,

I did a little google-fu. Turns out, Oklahoma, like some other states, has a law in its books to protect EMS workers and enhance penalties when we are assualted:



> SECTION 1.       AMENDATORY      21 O.S. 1991, Section 650.4, is amended  to read as follows:
> Section 650.4 A. Every person who, without justifiable or excusable  cause and with intent to do bodily harm, commits any assault, battery or assault  and battery upon the person of an emergency medical technician or  other emergency medical care provider who is performing medical care  duties, upon conviction, is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by  imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding six (6) months  one (1) year, or by a fine not exceeding Five Hundred Dollars  ($500.00) One Thousand Dollars ($1,000.00), or by both such fine  and imprisonment.
> B. As used in this section, "emergency medical care provider" means doctors,  residents, interns, nurses, nurses’ aides, ambulance attendants and operators,  paramedics, emergency medical technicians, and members of a hospital security  force.
> SECTION 2.      This act  shall become effective November 1, 2000.


http://www.oscn.net/applications/OCISWeb/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=212913



> Every person who, without justifiable or excusable cause and with intent to do bodily harm, commits any aggravated assault and battery or any assault with a firearm or other deadly weapon upon the person of an emergency medical technician or other emergency medical care provider, upon conviction, is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment in a state correctional institution for not more than one (1) year, or by a fine not to exceed One Thousand Dollars ($1,000.00), or by both such fine and imprisonment.


http://www.oscn.net/applications/OCISWeb/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=69281


So... YES... there are increased penalties for assualt on EMS workers* in the line of duty.*

However - the whole station is a mess.


----------



## HotelCo

Didn't see the drivers statement posted yet...

Statement from the EMT driving the ambulance:
http://static.ktul.com/documents/franksstatement_0509.pdf

Just to put it out there again for those that didn't read through the whole thread... 
The paramedic's statement:
http://static.ktul.com/documents/emtstatement_0509.pdf


----------



## Jon

The more I read this thread, the more it frustrates me. FFEMT8978 asked everyone to play nice this morning... but folks aren't being nice.

This thread is on time out.


----------



## Jon

So... I'm re-opening the thread.

Final reminder everyone - Be Nice.


----------



## Lunah

Latest update, as far as I've seen:

http://www.news9.com/global/story.asp?s=10434913


----------



## HotelCo

Lunah said:


> Latest update, as far as I've seen:
> 
> http://www.news9.com/global/story.asp?s=10434913



"OHP dash cameras recorded the first confrontation between the men. Prosecutors now have that tape, which they say shows Maurice White (Paramedic) assaulting Trooper Martin."

New information.

And... discuss


----------



## Lunah

If so, why hasn't he been arrested yet? You'd think that would happen with a quickness, given how volatile/publicized this whole situation has become.


----------



## HotelCo

Lunah said:


> If so, why hasn't he been arrested yet? You'd think that would happen with a quickness, given how volatile/publicized this whole situation has become.



I don't think so. They're treading carefully here, because of all the news attention. Don't want to make any quick decisions.


----------



## Lunah

Yeah, I see your point. But gee, now there's a dangerous criminal out there roaming the streets, helping others. Heh.


----------



## HotelCo

Lunah said:


> Yeah, I see your point. But gee, now there's a dangerous criminal out there roaming the streets, helping others. Heh.



Unacceptable. This criminal needs to be brought to justice. NOW.


----------



## AJ Hidell

Linuss said:


> A) Not illegal in any way for a police officer to use proper force to control a situation or initiate an arrest.


That would hold water had he actually made an arrest.  He didn't.  And he didn't control a situation.  He initiated a situation.



> B ) How will it be good in any way for this to cause a huge public outcry?


Because it will put cops on notice that they are not above the law, cannot get away with illegal behavior with impunity, and will suffer consequences just like us mere mortals.



> You want MORE people to hate police?


Yes.  If more people hate all police, more police will work harder to change that image.

But I think you have this entire thing backwards.  This is not about hurting the image police.  This is about protecting the image and rights of EMS.


----------



## fma08

Linuss said:


> My god! From the US to Europe?!  Talk about overtime!



And mileage B)


----------



## DT4EMS

I waited a while before I made any comments........

I see problems on BOTH sides here. As a police officer AND a paramedic I can see both sides.

First..... because I wasn't sure if it was posted earlier........ it is very possible he was at speeds to "outrun the siren" you guys all remember that from your EVOC days right? Not that he is traveling faster than the speed of sound........ you know what I mean.

I read the medic's statement too. It, like most statements, tends to lean toward the person writing the statement. I have not read the PC statement of the officer.

I can tell you, as will most other trained folks...... an open hand choke to a person that is standing is nearly impossible to choke someone unconscious. Plus....... did you see the size of the medic? He looked like a bodybuilder. I wish I was that size.

 I took the fact of him pointing at his neck as a "see what he is doing to me" motion for the camera. I think he did a good job of staying calm. Kudos for it not turning into a full blown fight.

While on the "choke" note. Is is AGAINST many PD departments policy to "choke" anyone unless it is a "deadly force" encounter. This was clearly not a deadly force encounter.

As far as the medic pulling away......... guys on many force continuum's that just upped the level of force needed for a situation. 

Now saying that let me say this.............


I would not have stopped the ambulance. BUT if for some reason I did (remember ambulances get stolen too) Once I saw there was a patient on board, I could have followed to the ER, had a chat and issued the citation if one was truly needed. Maybe even follow up with his supervisors.

Both sides have some guilt in this. This is another one of those peeing matches when we should all be on the same side.

No matter how you cut it......... this will bring some serious tensions over there between EMS and LEO.

The cops will see it "They think they can get away with anything" EMS will see it "Cops over here are heavy handed". This is a NO WIN situation.

IMO....... Either party could have and SHOULD have backed an inch and it could have been solved in a whole different way.

I was sick to my stomach when I saw the video. I felt terrible for all involved. Hopefully we can all learn from it.................

Kip


----------



## Shishkabob

If what the prosecutor says is true, and the medic assaulted the cop... then I see even less wrongdoing on the side of the officers.


Only our viewing of the dash cam will tell though...


----------



## HotelCo

Witnesses Statement (per link on the YouTube video): 
http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/griffin/NEWS9/PDF/0905/witnessletter.pdf


----------



## Shishkabob

HotelCo said:


> Witnesses Statement (per link on the YouTube video):
> http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/griffin/NEWS9/PDF/0905/witnessletter.pdf



First, I doubt the authenticity of the statement.

Second, that person needs to get some English and grammar lessons.

Thirdly, that statement, if even legit, is much more subjective than objective.


----------



## FireMedic65

This is all over just about ever fire/ems/cop forum and in debates in several other social chatting places.  The general concensus seems to be all the same, except for those who are cops and they just feel the need to defend a fellow cop (but some of course, agree with everyone else.  This guy was way out of line and should be punished severly.

It's idiots like this guy that give everyone else a bad name.


----------



## AJ Hidell

Linuss said:


> First, I doubt the authenticity of the statement.


The media is already publishing the statement, which probably means it came from an official source (although I would never claim that the media is beyond being duped).



> Second, that person needs to get some English and grammar lessons.


Welcome to Oklahoma, lol.  But it's no worse than the typical grammar we see here on this forum.


----------



## Ridryder911

Well, I have been quiet after posting to see what else will occur. This service is a neighboring EMS. 

The unit was responding without lights and sirens to Prague ER on a State Highway which is very narrow and curvy. The OHP units passed as in coming towards them, but if you listen carefully the driver apologizes and describes that there was an approaching car. From sources, I have heard he did not want to leave the road way with a patient in the back, I don't blame him as it does not have a shoulder. 

Yes, it was wrong on both parts. The disappointing issue is that OHP has a tradition and reputation of demonstrating professionalism. It is not until the past 5-7 years, we have seen a turn of newer troopers graduating with attitudes. I have several friends that are troop commanders and officers within OHP I usually have breakfast with them every week. I have not seen them since this incidence, but I am sure they are upset on the event as well. They have worked hard to develop a professional reputation and the experienced troopers always assisted me and provided me anything within reason on any response I needed. A great asset to EMS. 

I agree with Kip on several accounts as well, I am surprised no one mentioned some very important points. 

The incident that caused the initial event was minor. How many cars never pull over? True, they should had, they were wrong. I do doubt that they were the only ones though. As discussed as well, I have had troopers call me as a supervisor to complain or meet a unit at the hospital to discuss. Stopping an EMS unit while in service is opening and wanting problems. 

There is rumor that there is bad blood between OHP and the EMS. I will not discuss here but one can imagine.

No trooper regarded the patient safety. Not one trooper was shown in the video asking .."What is wrong with your patient?" They realize that many times we do not transport back with l/s even with a serious patient. That itself is an issue for reprimanding. Alike what was discussed, this could had been settled at the ER. In fact, more verbal discussion occurred and continued at the ER. Enough is enough. 

Simply put, they disregarded the patients safety & welfare and placed their own agenda first. 

The other concern is that the trooper obviously attempted to enter the patient compartment. Maurice (the Paramedic) was still in the truck when the trooper was exclaiming .."your under arrest". As well, the trooper was pointing with his "gun hand" and then took two steps back as in demonstrating fear. The hold of placing the arm behind the back failed and was done improperly, a choke hold was placed onto a obvious unarmed medic with both of his arms at his side. Three (not one) was pointing and yelling. This is called bullying and provoking. Something OHP had prided themselves of never doing. 

What will happen? Probably nothing. The county is divided between Native Americans, Blacks and Whites. Racial tension is nothing new in that area. The trooper will probably be placed in the metro/city area where he can be closely monitored and report to a commander everyday. I do look for civil suits to occur and I look for OHP to loose drastically. Unfortunately, since they just asked for a vote to prevent furloughs. 

This video is assured to be placed as a training video on what *NOT* to do. 

I do hope though that this will cause a change of what I have seen lately of OHP attitude and poor to no staging at scenes. I do wish that maybe we can have education programs together and develop strategies realizing we are all there for one reason but different jobs. 

R/r 911


----------



## amberdt03

Lunah said:


> Latest update, as far as I've seen:
> 
> http://www.news9.com/global/story.asp?s=10434913



i noticed that the medic's stories have changed a little bit with this update. but it could be that the writer changed it for them


----------



## Shishkabob

AJ Hidell said:


> The media is already publishing the statement, which probably means it came from an official source (although I would never claim that the media is beyond being duped).



Wouldn't be the first time the media latched on to incorrect info.


And besides, the original story states that there was a convoy of cars following the ambulance.  How in the heck would that witness be close enough to hear whats going on, on the side of the road, multiple car lengths back, with the clarity that she says?


My money is on it's someone that saw the video, showed up to the PD and made the statement purely off what they saw on the video.


-------------------------------------------
Rid, just because the video doesn't show it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

The original video doesn't show the paramedic assaulting the Trooper, yet the prosecutor has come out and said he did.


----------



## reaper

I would guess the writer screwed up. Same way as they have them both listsed as medics, when the driver was an EMT.


----------



## micsaver

daedalus said:


> JP's post is probably on target. The cop is a tool for trying to arrest the attending paramedic, and the medic is a tool for putting up a physical fight.


  EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!! 

let's get an Amen in here and just MOVE ON^_^


----------



## Ridryder911

Linuss said:


> Wouldn't be the first time the media latched on to incorrect info.
> 
> 
> And besides, the original story states that there was a convoy of cars following the ambulance.  How in the heck would that witness be close enough to hear whats going on, on the side of the road, multiple car lengths back, with the clarity that she says?
> 
> 
> My money is on it's someone that saw the video, showed up to the PD and made the statement purely off what they saw on the video.
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------
> Rid, just because the video doesn't show it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
> 
> The original video doesn't show the paramedic assaulting the Trooper, yet the prosecutor has come out and said he did.




Obviously, you don't know small towns or Paden, OK. The town has maybe 500 people and about 14 streets total and the highway runs through the middle. When I brought an EMS unit there (we started coverage for the town) nearly everyone came outside alike a parade waiving at us and came outside to talk us. So yes, it is very possible for someone to over hear the comments. 

True the original video does not show Paramedic doing anything to the Trooper. Yet, what constitutes arrest to a Paramedic within his working area and the liberty of a trooper to enter the patient compartment (especially since this is a Federal vehicle as well)? It also still does not excuse the actions or why the trooper had any business in the patient compartment. I too would had probably been arrested if they attempted to enter my patient area. Alike, when I work in the ED unless the patient gives permission they have to sit and await outside to get information. 

The incident did not involve the patient, therefore interrupting patient care and entering patient care area was violated. Period. 

Sorry, alike I described. I work with very many of those that are the best in the world and then there are some that need to realize that they only are there to enforce the laws.

I believe everyone reading the comments are now "_nitpicking"_. EMT/ Medic/Paramedic is synonymous around most parts. Their EMS unit actually had an EMT/driver and a Critical Care Paramedic to be truthful. 

The only good is, that I believe there will be some cohesiveness afterwards. Something that may need to be taught in their well respected academy. 

I know when I returned back to the field I had difficulties I never experienced prior.  After discussing with some of the Troop commanders, I have never had any more problems and the working relations have been better. 


R/r 911


----------



## VFFforpeople

have waited to make on post on this one. It can go either way and I wanted to see what has developed. I think they are both in the wrong, both sides have a job to do, and again both sides didn't take each side in consideration.

I think the trooper(s) may have been new, or excited. (I was not there). Maybe they should hold a training 8hour or something simple, to explain the laws of EMS and EMS in transport. (or if they do, go back over and review).

Like wise on the EMS side. (If they dont already).

I would have taken the ticket not argued it there, and took it to court after. If that would have saved a fight and blah blah, then so be it. Now we have a game of big balls being played, and what led to the tensions.

A cool head and calm understanding could have fixed this whole mess. It is what it is, more info will come out and I hope the right verdict will be cast fair and equal for all.

Again the high road could have prevent this whole mess, but then again I dont know everything that happened. That is all my opinion, I have nothing against law by any means.


----------



## daedalus

Linuss said:


> First, I doubt the authenticity of the statement.
> 
> Second, that person needs to get some English and grammar lessons.
> 
> Thirdly, that statement, if even legit, is much more subjective than objective.



I respectfully question your repeated shoot downs of all attempts to bring balance to the issue. Your right, only the dash cam will tell, however, you are not remaining objective. Like AJ said, we in EMS need to have some rights too. What if that was you and your partner?

As an aside, I have failed to pull over for numerous police going code behind me when I have been transporting. Once, I was going code as well, and the officer behind me turned his warning equipment off, and backed off until I turned. Second time, medic in back was starting an IV during a no code transport. I thought about my duty to my patient before trying to pull erratically to the right with all the other cars (you have seen how the public can react). 

Never had problems.

Like Kip has said, this whole thing makes me literally nauseous. I get upset watching it, because police and EMS are supposed to be partners in service and champions for the public.

My ideal resolution would be to have a meeting with the two medics, two troopers, and some mediators, in which both sides could debrief and apologise. Than, modules should be added to the police academy and EMS education on fostering positive relationships with other emergency services, and finally, activities such as EMS vs. Police baseball games and picnics should be held to again foster positive relations between departments.


----------



## GonnaBeEMT

If the cop was going somewhere important why did he stop the ambulance?  just go around the freaking ambulance.  Kinda seems like the cop was looking for a reason not to go on the call he was called to do.


----------



## JPINFV

The cop completed his call and then returned to look for the ambulance.


----------



## Shishkabob

daedalus said:


> I respectfully question your repeated shoot downs of all attempts to bring balance to the issue. Your right, only the dash cam will tell, however, you are not remaining objective. Like AJ said, we in EMS need to have some rights too. What if that was you and your partner?



Sit in your car, engine on, atleast 2 car lengths back with 2 other vehicles infront of you with their engines on. One a normal car, and one a loud diesel engine, and tell me you can hear a conversation clearly, word for word, that far back with that much ambient noise minimum.  Sorry, I find it hard to believe that she heard what they said in that situation.






> As an aside, I have failed to pull over for numerous police going code behind me when I have been transporting. Once, I was going code as well, and the officer behind me turned his warning equipment off, and backed off until I turned. Second time, medic in back was starting an IV during a no code transport. I thought about my duty to my patient before trying to pull erratically to the right with all the other cars (you have seen how the public can react).
> 
> Never had problems.


That's all cool, but as you know, every cop is different.  You won't always get a ticket if pulled over.  You won't always get pulled over if you speed by a cop.

I've known medics to call police for dangerous drivers on the road.  

Every situation is different, and this one culminated in to a cop making a decision that he did.



> Like Kip has said, this whole thing makes me literally nauseous. I get upset watching it, because police and EMS are supposed to be partners in service and champions for the public.


Agreed, but when one disrespects the other, things tend to go down hill quick.




> My ideal resolution would be to have a meeting with the two medics, two troopers, and some mediators, in which both sides could debrief and apologise.


Are you talking post-engagement, or during the traffic stop?


----------



## SauceyEMT

The fact remains that it's obvious here that many of the posters will argue for EMS whether or not they are right or wrong. Many seem to see no issues at all with anything the EMS people did. I suspect that this would remain the case in any situation where it is police vs. EMS. With that said, I have enough experience and common sense to know that it would be the same with many police officers.

Look at it like this, how many times do you see some :censored: gang banger get arrested for his 42 armed robbery, or shooting, or whatever crime you want to insert? Then shortly after, the family comes on defending the career criminal saying "oh, he's a good boy, he's trying to turn his life around." Clearly, the guy is a jerkoff, but his supporters wont hear of it.

People defend their own. EMS, cops, firefighters tend to defend their people often times without regard for the truth. 

The fact is, the police, by nature being an adversarial figure, are nearly always judged harshly no matter how justified, correct, or beneficial their actions may be. And that doesnt exclude the views of EMS professionals. Many of you seem to have no use for the police.


----------



## VentMedic

SauceyEMT said:


> Many of you seem to have no use for the police.


 
This thread is mild compared to a couple we've had in the past on this forum. However, it is usually the same people expressing their dislike for LEOs. 

This thread is also relatively tame compared to what is being said on other EMS forums. Some of the comments are made toward LEOs by those in EMS are not good for either profession especially since they are being read and discussed on the forums of those not involved in either EMS or Law Enforcement. We are being viewed as a bunch of children that can't play well together rather than professionals.



daedalus said:


> Like Kip has said, this whole thing makes me literally nauseous. I get upset watching it, because police and EMS are supposed to be partners in service and champions for the public.
> 
> My ideal resolution would be to have a meeting with the two medics, two troopers, and some mediators, in which both sides could debrief and apologise. Than, modules should be added to the police academy and EMS education on fostering positive relationships with other emergency services, and finally, activities such as EMS vs. Police baseball games and picnics should be held to again foster positive relations between departments.


 
Agree. 

However, I believe in this case the EMTs may already be believing they smell money from the encouragement they are getting from those in EMS to sue the arses off the OHP and LEOs.  That will trump any peaceful resolution.


----------



## Ridryder911

SauceyEMT said:


> The fact remains that it's obvious here that many of the posters will argue for EMS whether or not they are right or wrong. Many seem to see no issues at all with anything the EMS people did. I suspect that this would remain the case in any situation where it is police vs. EMS. With that said, I have enough experience and common sense to know that it would be the same with many police officers.
> 
> Look at it like this, how many times do you see some sh!thead gang banger get arrested for his 42 armed robbery, or shooting, or whatever crime you want to insert? Then shortly after, the family comes on defending the career criminal saying "oh, he's a good boy, he's trying to turn his life around." Clearly, the guy is a jerkoff, but his supporters wont hear of it.
> 
> People defend their own. EMS, cops, firefighters tend to defend their people often times without regard for the truth.
> 
> The fact is, the police, by nature being an adversarial figure, are nearly always judged harshly no matter how justified, correct, or beneficial their actions may be. And that doesnt exclude the views of EMS professionals. Many of you seem to have no use for the police.



Just await until you are out there and a LEO yells at you to move your unit or he will arrest you or they refuse to allow a HEMS to land for a scene flight or block a lane because "it might tie up traffic"... Then come back and defend them. We have already lost several medics because of poor staging and blocking of lanes.

Unarmed medic transporting a patient, sorry NO reason to even pursue or provoke  and deal such unprofessionally. The trooper should be immediately fired due to his actions and embarrassment of the profession. 

Alike I described there are some great ones too, unfortunately we fail to acknowledge them sometimes. Alike our profession though we need to clean out the weeds sometimes to ensure quality. 

R/r 911


----------



## Shishkabob

Until said video of the medic assaulting the officer comes out.

I can't wait for his apology.


----------



## Shishkabob

Ridryder911 said:


> The trooper should be immediately fired due to his actions and embarrassment of the profession.
> 
> R/r 911



The prosecutor has come out and said there is video of the medic assaulting the officer, and you want the cop fired?  Where's the anger at the medic?  Why is no one here but Vent, Saucy and I saying that the medic has ANY part to do with this?


Assaulting an officer should be a no brainer, and yet the argument persist that it's the cops fault, and the cop is the one to blame.


Using your argument, the MEDIC should be fired immediately for HIS unproffesionalism and his embarrassment of EMS.


----------



## VentMedic

Ridryder911 said:


> Just await until you are out there and a LEO yells at you to move your unit or he will arrest you or they refuse to allow a HEMS to land for a scene flight or block a lane because "it might tie up traffic"... Then come back and defend them. We have already lost several medics because of poor staging and blocking of lanes.


 
Been there done that and still don't hate law enforcement professionals. 

If we have a problem landing we contact the ground and ask the troopers to get us safely down and that we are putting out lives in their hands. We don't bully our way down or settle for an area that is not safe. A safe resolution and corporation from the ground can usually be reached. You've just got to communicate with the right people. Usually when there is a problem like that, the PD has been kept out of the loop and have not had a chance to properly secure the traffic which will also put your helicopter in danger. If there is something not safe for the landing area, the ground crews can take the patient to where we can safely land. Many places have designated areas for the helicopter to land and meet a ground transport truck just to ensure safety for the car/road traffic and the many members of the crews working together. 

If we have difficulty with a member(s) of some profession be it Fire, EMS or PD, we see that it is quickly resolved through the proper channels before a next time happens again to keep infecting the wound between all involved.

Yes, the weeds need to be removed but EMS also needs to look at their own role and determine where they could have done things better.

I have already described the reasons why an LEO may want to pull over an ambulance. To ignor the request to stop or pull over could be putting all in the ambulance in jeopardy for a variety of reasons such as driving recklessly or paired, mechanical failure or an unsafe scene just ahead that has not been secured that the ambulance is approaching. This could be a shooting or MVC. The officer could get you off to another route quicker or safer than your dispatch. I have encountered that a few times and have again been grateful for their help and concern about our safety.

I've had to tolerate the fighting amongst EMS providers for 3 decades, there are few things an LEO can do to surprise or shock me after the examples we have had in EMS.


----------



## SauceyEMT

Ridryder911 said:


> Just await until you are out there and a LEO yells at you to move your unit or he will arrest you or they refuse to allow a HEMS to land for a scene flight or block a lane because "it might tie up traffic"...



I've been the cop handling crash scenes with multiple EMS/Fire units on scene. This isnt foreign to me. Any cop who starts :censored: like this is a jerkoff. But, to assume, as many here seem to, that cops are all useless, power hungry, trouble makers, isnt fair.

Just as it wouldnt be fair to label all EMS workers as liberal, coddling, pussies. Apples and oranges. 

My local EMS/Fire departments don't have ANY attitude that they are superior to us, and vice versa. The attitude that has been displayed by many here that they can handle anything without the need for police, is crazy. If my local EMS pro's get a call that may require police assistance, or are dispatched to a domestic disturbance, fight, crash, etc, they stage and wait for us to call them in. Thats the way it works. If some hero medic or EMT wants to run into the middle of a disturbance, because of course, they don't need no stinkin' cops, and they get hurt or killed, these same people will cry that the cops weren't doing their jobs. The same jobs that the EMS folks, naturally, didn't need us for.


----------



## medic417

I guess I'm spoiled if I want highway shut down I shut it down.  I have closed an interstate for over 2 hours and only way around would have added 6 hours to the persons trip.  When I hear of trouble getting scene safe I realize how little respect LE has for some of your agencies.  Here if I say do it they do it.  But we also work with our LE when they request things from us.  We know each other and it helps the work environment tremendously.


----------



## SauceyEMT

medic417 said:


> Here if I say do it they do it.  But we also work with our LE when they request things from us.



Wait...so when you say *"do it, they do it."* But "you work with your LE" when they have to *"request things from you?"*

So you issue orders to the cops, and they have to "request" things from you? 



			
				medic417 said:
			
		

> I guess I'm spoiled if I want highway shut down I shut it down. I have closed an interstate for over 2 hours and only way around would have added 6 hours to the persons trip.



In my state, EMS isn't allowed to shut the highway down, only police can control traffic. And if it takes you two hours to do your job as a medic at a crash scene, I have to wonder. Not to mention, what takes two hours aside from a major MCI or plane crash on a highway? Something that serious would be way above both of our paygrades. Besides, making someone drive 6 hours out of their way to get by the highway "you shut down" just shows poor planning, and poor deployment of resources. Not to mention, your entire post smells like a power trip to me.


----------



## AJ Hidell

Linuss said:


> The prosecutor has come out and said there is video of the medic assaulting the officer, and you want the cop fired?


Yes.  He started the confrontation to begin with, and illegally so.

Saucey, your theory is nonsense.  Few people are even defending these troopers on the LEO forums.  It's not just us condemning their behavior.  And have you ever noticed that it's the same couple of cop wannabes here who are constantly defending them, regardless of the situation?  And you want to accuse others of unfairly judging?  You have to be kidding me.


----------



## Shishkabob

Wait, how did the officer illegally start the confrontation?  Last I checked, no vehicle is exempt from being pulled over.



And, if it WAS illegal, the officer would have been let go by now, a week later.


----------



## reaper

SauceyEMT said:


> Wait...so when you say *"do it, they do it."* But "you work with your LE" when they have to *"request things from you?"*
> 
> So you issue orders to the cops, and they have to "request" things from you?
> 
> 
> 
> In my state, EMS isn't allowed to shut the highway down, only police can control traffic. And if it takes you two hours to do your job as a medic at a crash scene, I have to wonder. Not to mention, what takes two hours aside from a major MCI or plane crash on a highway? Something that serious would be way above both of our paygrades. Besides, making someone drive 6 hours out of their way to get by the highway "you shut down" just shows poor planning, and poor deployment of resources. Not to mention, your entire post smells like a power trip to me.



This shows that you have never worked a large accident scene. Shutting down a highway for two hours, may be minimal. I have seen MVC scenes that had a major interstate shut down for 10-12 hours. 2 hours of that was just for extrication of pt's. The other 10 hours was for Highway to investigate the scene!

I seen no one on here stating that all LEO are bad or not respected. There are lots of bad apples out there, the same way there is in EMS!


----------



## SauceyEMT

AJ Hidell said:


> Saucey, your theory is nonsense.  Few people are even defending these troopers on the LEO forums.



You're missing my point. I'm not supporting THESE Troopers. I've already said that they were wrong. My point is that EMS people should not order around cops, (which is what was alleged by another poster) anymore than cops should be ordering around EMS people.

I'm not a cop wannabe, and I'm not defending them regardless of the situation. I'm making my point that EMS people seem to think they run the show, and many cops think the same. It's all BS that interferes with getting the job, regardless of who's it is.



reaper said:


> Shutting down a highway for two hours, may be minimal. *I have seen MVC scenes that had a major interstate shut down for 10-12 hours. 2 hours of that was just for extrication of pt's.* The other 10 hours was for Highway to investigate the scene!



Right, so it's an MCI, which is what I stated as the reason for extended road closure. Was it one medic who was running the scene?


----------



## medic417

SauceyEMT said:


> Wait...so when you say *"do it, they do it."* But "you work with your LE" when they have to *"request things from you?"*
> 
> So you issue orders to the cops, and they have to "request" things from you?
> 
> 
> 
> In my state, EMS isn't allowed to shut the highway down, only police can control traffic. And if it takes you two hours to do your job as a medic at a crash scene, I have to wonder. Not to mention, what takes two hours aside from a major MCI or plane crash on a highway? Something that serious would be way above both of our paygrades. Besides, making someone drive 6 hours out of their way to get by the highway "you shut down" just shows poor planning, and poor deployment of resources. Not to mention, your entire post smells like a power trip to me.



No power trip.  We are in charge of scene until we release it to law enforcement.  You obviously have not worked mass casualty or hazmat.  

We did not make them drive 6 hours, I said if they wanted to go around that was how much longer it would take them.  No other options, and was very good planning as it kept more people from dieing.  

But enough dealing with you as you obviously are not experienced.


----------



## medic417

SauceyEMT said:


> Right, so it's an MCI, which is what I stated as the reason for extended road closure. Was it one medic who was running the scene?



Actually one medic does become incident commander and directs all operations.  Hope you never have to experience mass cassualty.


----------



## AJ Hidell

Linuss said:


> Wait, how did the officer illegally start the confrontation?  Last I checked, no vehicle is exempt from being pulled over.


It is contrary to Oklahoma law (a crime, not just a ticketable offense) to interfere with EMS personnel.  A perceived traffic offense is not justification to violate that criminal law.

And it takes longer than a week to fire a cop.


----------



## AJ Hidell

SauceyEMT said:


> I'm not a cop wannabe


You're a working, commissioned officer?


----------



## Chimpie

*Keep this friendly and clean and the thread will stay open.  Anything else and it will be closed.*


----------



## VFFforpeople

daedalus said:


> I respectfully question your repeated shoot downs of all attempts to bring balance to the issue. Your right, only the dash cam will tell, however, you are not remaining objective. Like AJ said, we in EMS need to have some rights too. What if that was you and your partner?
> 
> As an aside, I have failed to pull over for numerous police going code behind me when I have been transporting. Once, I was going code as well, and the officer behind me turned his warning equipment off, and backed off until I turned. Second time, medic in back was starting an IV during a no code transport. I thought about my duty to my patient before trying to pull erratically to the right with all the other cars (you have seen how the public can react).
> 
> Never had problems.
> 
> Like Kip has said, this whole thing makes me literally nauseous. I get upset watching it, because police and EMS are supposed to be partners in service and champions for the public.
> 
> My ideal resolution would be to have a meeting with the two medics, two troopers, and some mediators, in which both sides could debrief and apologise. Than, modules should be added to the police academy and EMS education on fostering positive relationships with other emergency services, and finally, activities such as EMS vs. Police baseball games and picnics should be held to again foster positive relations between departments.




Agreed! See, like i stated ealier and you helped make my point (bettering it lol). See what a level head can accomplish when we all arnt trying to be right? Agreed!!


----------



## VentMedic

reaper said:


> This shows that you have never worked a large accident scene. Shutting down a highway for two hours, may be minimal. I have seen MVC scenes that had a major interstate shut down for 10-12 hours. 2 hours of that was just for extrication of pt's. The other 10 hours was for Highway to investigate the scene!
> 
> I seen no one on here stating that all LEO are bad or not respected. There are lots of bad apples out there, the same way there is in EMS!


 
reaper, I just can not believe your arrogant and naive statements about shutting down a highway. Of course, you may live in rural nowhere where this only affects 3 cars for 12 hours. 

When we shut down a highway we have alot of safety issues that EMS and Law Enforcement MUST be concerned about. There will be people doing unlawful driving to get around a scene. There will be U-turns and driving on the wrong side of the road. That also applies to rescue vehicles. You bet I want LEOs working with us at all exits to make sure our rescue and EMS personnel are not injured responding to the scene. As well, all dispatchers of various agencies will have to be notified of closures and alternative routes. That again applies to everyone, EMS and PD, because your emergency is not the only one and the world does not stop just for you. 

In long road closures, tempers will be short and guess who has to deal with those situations while traffic is at a standstill? 
Law Enforcement Officers. 

Guess who will also be first on scene when someone getting overheated waiting for the road to open?
 Law Enforcement Officers. 

Guess who will have to make way for EMS to get to that emergency? 
Law Enforcement Officers. 

One little EMT can say the road has to be shut down, but it takes coordination from LEOs to make it happen safely for all involved.



medic417 said:


> No power trip. We are in charge of scene until we release it to law enforcement. You obviously have not worked mass casualty or hazmat.
> 
> We did not make them drive 6 hours, I said if they wanted to go around that was how much longer it would take them. No other options, and was very good planning as it kept more people from dieing.
> 
> But enough dealing with you as you obviously are not experienced.


 
My comments also go to you and I am experienced enough and have been through many road closures and evacuations from both a ground and an air point of view. This also goes along with several hurricane and flood situations which require cooperation from all. 

While EMS and Fire concentrate on the immediate problem, LEOs have a broader area to cover to ensure your safety as well as that of many, many others.

Is there little wonder why some in EMS get little respect not only from FDs, LEOs and Healthcare professionals but also from each other?  Some believe they are an island and all centers around themselves with no understanding or concerns  for the safety of others as their situation may affect.  Yes, your patient is important which is why LEOs are there to watch not only your back but to see that everyone approaching that scene is safe.


----------



## Shishkabob

AJ Hidell said:


> It is contrary to Oklahoma law (a crime, not just a ticketable offense) to interfere with EMS personnel.  A perceived traffic offense is not justification to violate that criminal law.
> 
> And it takes longer than a week to fire a cop.



Again, cops are exempt from many laws while in the process of doing their duties.  And again, all vehicles on the road are subject to being stopped by a police car if deemed necessary, including other emergency vehicles.


Until I see charges brought up against the officer, or until you can show me exactly where it says police cannot pull over emergency vehicles, then arguing otherwise is fruitless.


----------



## Jon

SauceyEMT said:


> Right, so it's an MCI, which is what I stated as the reason for extended road closure. Was it one medic who was running the scene?



MCI? Define MCI? I've had incidents with extreme entrapment with a small handful of victims. One that comes to mind was an overturned tractor trailer with entrapment of the driver. Took almost 2 hours to extricate the patient. Then there was cleanup - even if just for the spilled fuel from the saddle tanks. And beyond that, there was a fatality in another vehicle... so the highway was shut down for most of the day. Yes - that becomes a call above the pay grade of the beat cop - but when there is a truck across the road, traffic isn't getting by until it is moved anyway.


----------



## medic417

VentMedic said:


> Is there little wonder why some in EMS get little respect not only from FDs, LEOs and Healthcare professionals but also from each other?  Some believe they are an island and all centers around themselves with no understanding or concerns  for the safety of others as their situation may affect.  Yes, your patient is important which is why LEOs are there to watch not only your back but to see that everyone approaching that scene is safe.



Vent you need to quit acting so high and mighty.  You are speaking of what you do not know and being rude while doing it.  As IC I shut highways and busy interstates down when required.  I make the call, I make the choice and it is not taken lightly.  I never said I did not have help accomplishing what I ordered done.  My actions are not for your or anyones convience, they are for peoples safety.  I understand possible problems based on idiots getting frustrated that I just kept them from dieing, though they will never know that it was so serious.


----------



## VentMedic

medic417 said:


> Vent you need to quit acting so high and mighty. *You are speaking of what you do not know and being rude while doing it.* As IC I shut highways and busy interstates down when required. I make the call, I make the choice and it is not taken lightly. I never said I did not have help accomplishing what I ordered done. *My actions are not for your or anyones convience, they are for peoples safety.* I understand possible problems based on idiots getting frustrated that I just kept them from dieing, though they will never know that it was so serious.


 
Do not know? You are the one who obviously has little experience closing down a road in a city area and does not know the problems that accompany it.

Do you shut down the highways all by yourself? You are just one person. While you may call for the road to be closed, many agencies and their dispatchers are going to have to work to make that happen safely. Do you have any understanding about scene safety on a highway? Do you know what LEOs do to secure that road? 

Your comments for not caring about my safety as my partner and I are coming in on a helicopter are exactly why I want to know LEOs are also there. You are too focused on yourself and your patient to care about anyone one else on that road way or on the approach. You also believe your job is the only one that is of importance. You seem to lack the inability to think in broader terms of protecting not only your patient but others as well. 

So yeah, I'm a little rude when I know the one who thinks they are in control of the whole situation has not even considered those of us approaching from air or ground. Too bad you think my safety is just a "convenience".


----------



## DrankTheKoolaid

*re*

LOL, Mike Galonos on CNN is having an absolute coronary over this!   Interesting to listen to the law enforcement officers he has interviewed about this.   Some LEO is going to be meeting the unemployment line after this, and then have there day in court when the family sue's.

Cant wait to watch this one unfold, as it will be WIDELY publicized no that ol' Mike Galonos has got ahold of it.  That guy is worse then a pitbull with a chew toy

And Linuss he didn't finish his call, the call was SO important the other officer on scene canceled him.  That's how he got back to the ambulance so quickly


----------



## Shishkabob

Corky said:


> the call was SO important the other officer on scene canceled him.



Yes, because EMS has never been canceled in route to a priority 1 call...


----------



## DrankTheKoolaid

*re*

You know after reading alot of the post across the net and on CNN/Fox news on TV, some interesting things come up.

1. The OHP is now refusing to say what kind of call the OHP was on other then to assist a county officer

2. They dont state if this particular OHP was the only other officer responding, which i highly doubt as there were probably at least a half dozen if not more responding if it was an actual call for help

3. Still almost a week later, no sign of the OHP dash cam video which they state shows the Medic assaulting him, even if it does show him assaulting him in the video the silence of not going public with it is just digging a deeper hole for the individual officer and the department as a whole.


----------



## SauceyEMT

AJ Hidell said:


> You're a working, commissioned officer?



I'm a working (patrol division, and ATV unit member), fairly experienced (10 years this past January), proud, union, police officer who produces consistent, quality arrests, and despite what you may think, has a pretty good reputation for being an honest, hard working cop. 

I work for a city police department, not a college, jail, etc. I'm not a whacker, a wannabe, or a poser. My views of the issues discussed obviously differ from yours, but that doesn't mean I'm a fake.


----------



## reaper

VentMedic said:


> *reaper, I just can not believe your arrogant and naive statements about shutting down a highway. Of course, you may live in rural nowhere where this only affects 3 cars for 12 hours. *
> When we shut down a highway we have alot of safety issues that EMS and Law Enforcement MUST be concerned about. There will be people doing unlawful driving to get around a scene. There will be U-turns and driving on the wrong side of the road. That also applies to rescue vehicles. You bet I want LEOs working with us at all exits to make sure our rescue and EMS personnel are not injured responding to the scene. As well, all dispatchers of various agencies will have to be notified of closures and alternative routes. That again applies to everyone, EMS and PD, because your emergency is not the only one and the world does not stop just for you.
> 
> In long road closures, tempers will be short and guess who has to deal with those situations while traffic is at a standstill?
> Law Enforcement Officers.
> 
> Guess who will also be first on scene when someone getting overheated waiting for the road to open?
> Law Enforcement Officers.
> 
> Guess who will have to make way for EMS to get to that emergency?
> Law Enforcement Officers.
> 
> One little EMT can say the road has to be shut down, but it takes coordination from LEOs to make it happen safely for all involved.
> 
> 
> 
> My comments also go to you and I am experienced enough and have been through many road closures and evacuations from both a ground and an air point of view. This also goes along with several hurricane and flood situations which require cooperation from all.
> 
> While EMS and Fire concentrate on the immediate problem, LEOs have a broader area to cover to ensure your safety as well as that of many, many others.
> 
> Is there little wonder why some in EMS get little respect not only from FDs, LEOs and Healthcare professionals but also from each other?  Some believe they are an island and all centers around themselves with no understanding or concerns  for the safety of others as their situation may affect.  Yes, your patient is important which is why LEOs are there to watch not only your back but to see that everyone approaching that scene is safe.



Excuse me! You need to stop reading into things that are not there. I never once mentioned anything about not using LEO,dispatch,FD, Flight crews or anyone else for highway closures. I was responding to one post that said the poster must be doing it wrong, if the highway was shut down for 2 hours.

I don't work rural systems. I have worked large city systems for quite a while. I have asked for the shut down of every major interstate in FL, so I think that is more then 3 cars in 12 hours. I have only had a handful of FHP ever give me a problem. It was resolved on scene and the work was commenced.

So before you go high and mighty on everyone, remember, you are not the only one with experience in large systems.

BTW, even with all the debates on here. I have never said that LEO is bad and EMS is good. I stated that both entities in this situation were wrong, but that the trooper took it to far!


----------



## medic417

VentMedic said:


> Do not know? You are the one who obviously has little experience closing down a road in a city area and does not know the problems that accompany it.
> 
> Do you shut down the highways all by yourself? You are just one person. While you may call for the road to be closed, many agencies and their dispatchers are going to have to work to make that happen safely. Do you have any understanding about scene safety on a highway? Do you know what LEOs do to secure that road?
> 
> Your comments for not caring about my safety as my partner and I are coming in on a helicopter are exactly why I want to know LEOs are also there. You are too focused on yourself and your patient to care about anyone one else on that road way or on the approach. You also believe your job is the only one that is of importance. You seem to lack the inability to think in broader terms of protecting not only your patient but others as well.
> 
> So yeah, I'm a little rude when I know the one who thinks they are in control of the whole situation has not even considered those of us approaching from air or ground. Too bad you think my safety is just a "convenience".



Actually you need to learn to read.  I said *IC* so I am giving orders at mass casualty.  That indicates many people involved in carrying out my orders.  I am full well know what is scene safety for all involved.  Our busy rural interstate has no way around unlike your city traffic that can just go a few blocks or miles out of the way.  Out here if we divert in some places they will have to go several hours north or south then go east or west for an hour or two etc.  Often a two hour wait is quicker than going around.  

By doing the above I am protecting myself, my partner, LE, FF's, the public, and yes even the patients.  Again in this discussion you are spouting off about what you do not know.  You are pulling what pisses off so many a higher than everyone else attitude and personally I am in no mood to deal with it today.


----------



## ffemt8978

Can anyone guess what time it is?


----------



## ffemt8978

*No charges to be filed*

No charges to be filed against anyone involved in this incident.

This link http://www.newson6.com/Global/story.asp?S=10486819  has links to the statements from the troopers and ambulance crew.

I have reopened this topic for the time being, so that the latest developments can be discussed in a civil manner.


----------



## Ridryder911

I was in multiple meetings all day yesterday of those representing the State as per education, administrators and even officials. Of course this was a hot subject and guessed that the final decision would be of that given. 

It still is being investigated by the Creek Nation in which has their own laws that govern their units. As well the Paramedic & family has their own attorney at this time. 

We all agreed it was uncalled for and tragic, more that the good name of OHP has been slandered for an undetermined amount of time. 

We felt it was important though that some well intended medics proposed boycotting certain "made in Oklahoma" industries be discouraged doing so. Many of those industries support and give large amounts of money and support to rural EMS & without them many may suffer. So what would be the benefit of that? 

We all were in agreement that hopefully this would ensure education of EMS within the Trooper Academy (as there is some in the academy enrolled in a EMT program) and that maybe SOP's be written in addressing EMS units while in service. 

Yes, it was embarrassing and shameful and blackened the professions eye but hopefully something good will come out of this tragic event. 

R/r 911


----------



## Shishkabob

Why single just the OHP? How about education on laws in the EMS schools, Rid?

The DA has come out and said that the medic assaulted the officer, so clearly they didn't go over assault/battery laws in his EMS school.



EDIT: woot, 1000 post.


----------



## VentMedic

Linuss said:


> Why single just the OHP? How about education on laws in the EMS schools, Rid?
> 
> The DA has come out and said that the medic assaulted the officer, so clearly they didn't go over assault/battery laws in his EMS school.


 
I gotta agree there. Some of the just out right hateful posts on several EMS forums have fueled a mindset that is just shameful. I haven't heard "kill the pigs" comments since the early 70s but have had the misfortune of seeing these words of hatred coming from those who are supposed professionals in EMS. Even the remarks of "just wait till one of them is shot or injured and needs EMS", are just not something anyone wearing a patch of public service or medicine should be making.


----------



## Ridryder911

The only education I could provide would to be more alert on trooper autos exceeding the speed limit and failure to yield. The second is NOT to resist arrest as the law clearly states if anyone interferes with a medic while performing care or touches the medic in a harmful state, is to be charged with a felony as well. Take the arrest and notify your supervisor of the situation so another unit could be called then..... sue them for all their retirement and personal financial losses. Then ensure that part of the settlement would be new education and training. 

The only assault to the trooper only occurred when the medic would not allow the Trooper to enter his patient compartment, in which I totally agree with. Patient privacy and the trooper had NO reason to ever enter it. No regard was placed from the troopers point of view or action(s). 

The trooper had *NO* business opening the patient compartment nor had any authorization or permission to do so. No warrants or probable cause. 

Although, I definitely do not want to blast LEO for their job nor agree or condone the remarks by medics as I too think it was unprofessional I do believe the medics acted professionally and kept their demeanor. 

Those in law enforcement will have to recognize, that they are not the only ones that also cannot have an unwanted touch or interference. Technically, the Trooper should had been arrested on site as well as violating several laws. 

They know better and no excuses of pulling over a unit for a misdemeanor that could had been handled at the hospital. 

Alike I said, this will not be the last. Personally, I believe this trooper is a disgrace of the profession and the state. He should be discharged for his actions and allow litigation occur from his own personal estate.

R/r 911


----------



## ffemt8978

Ridryder911 said:


> The only education I could provide would to be more alert on trooper autos exceeding the speed limit and failure to yield. The second is NOT to resist arrest as the law clearly states if anyone interferes with a medic while performing care or touches the medic in a harmful state, is to be charged with a felony as well. Take the arrest and notify your supervisor of the situation so another unit could be called then..... sue them for all their retirement and personal financial losses. Then ensure that part of the settlement would be new education and training.
> 
> The only assault to the trooper only occurred when the medic would not allow the Trooper to enter his patient compartment, in which I totally agree with. Patient privacy and the trooper had NO reason to ever enter it. No regard was placed from the troopers point of view or action(s).
> 
> The trooper had *NO* business opening the patient compartment nor had any authorization or permission to do so. No warrants or probable cause.
> 
> Although, I definitely do not want to blast LEO for their job nor agree or condone the remarks by medics as I too think it was unprofessional I do believe the medics acted professionally and kept their demeanor.
> 
> Those in law enforcement will have to recognize, that they are not the only ones that also cannot have an unwanted touch or interference. Technically, the Trooper should had been arrested on site as well as violating several laws.
> 
> They know better and no excuses of pulling over a unit for a misdemeanor that could had been handled at the hospital.
> 
> Alike I said, this will not be the last. Personally, I believe this trooper is a disgrace of the profession and the state. He should be discharged for his actions and allow litigation occur from his own personal estate.
> 
> R/r 911



So here's a question...would you also charge the medic for abandoning his patient by stepping out of the rig and leaving her inside with nobody to monitor her?


----------



## Shishkabob

From the video shown, I did not see a single instance of the LEO opening the patient compartment.  I saw the medic open it multiple times, and one of those times step out and leave his patient.


As for "interfering with patient care and it's a felony"--- again, not true.  Cops are exempt from many laws, including this one IN THIS INSTANCE, when in the process of carrying out their official duties.  He LAWFULLY pulled the ambulance over.  Whether or not you agree with that statement means bupkiss-- it was lawful.  Period.

The DA said the medic assaulted the trooper.  I see no mention of the trooper assaulting the medic.  Want to know why?  Once someone lays a hand on you, it's no longer assault on your behalf.  And, on top of that, police are allowed to use physical force to control a suspect, which is exactly what they did in the video.


Thirdly, how can you say the medic kept his professionalism, when, AGAIN, he assaulted the cop first?  Assaulting a LEO is now considered professional and keeping your demeanor?


----------



## reaper

Linuss said:


> From the video shown, I did not see a single instance of the LEO opening the patient compartment.  I saw the medic open it multiple times, and one of those times step out and leave his patient.
> 
> 
> *As for "interfering with patient care and it's a felony"--- again, not true.  Cops are exempt from many laws, including this one IN THIS INSTANCE, when in the process of carrying out their official duties.  He LAWFULLY pulled the ambulance over.  Whether or not you agree with that statement means bupkiss-- it was lawful.  Period.*
> The DA said the medic assaulted the trooper.  I see no mention of the trooper assaulting the medic.  Want to know why?  Once someone lays a hand on you, it's no longer assault on your behalf.  And, on top of that, police are allowed to use physical force to control a suspect, which is exactly what they did in the video.
> 
> 
> Thirdly, how can you say the medic kept his professionalism, when, AGAIN, he assaulted the cop first?  Assaulting a LEO is now considered professional and keeping your demeanor?



Show me the law? Leo are not exempt from any laws. They are allowed act differently in their duties, But are not exempt for the laws. They have no lawful right to enter the pt compartment of an ambulance, for any reason. Can they enter? Yes. If they first ask permission or feel that a life is at danger. I have never had an LEO enter my unit, without first asking permission. Because most LEO have respect and know that they are not above the law, period!


----------



## Shishkabob

reaper said:


> I have never had an LEO enter my unit, without first asking permission. Because most LEO have respect and know that they are not above the law, period!



First--- Most of us WILL do respectful things, before using our authority to get something done.  This goes for LEOs as well as EMS and fire.  But if they have a need to get in your unit, you bet your but they will, whether your agree or not, because they have that authority.




Second-- Exempt from does not mean above of.  Like I said-- as long as they are doing it strictly for their official duties, they are exempt.


Otherwise, they can't buy drugs in stings.  They can't sell drugs.  They can't speed to a call.  They can't drive through a stop light.  They can't carry a firearm throughout all 50 states.  They can't control traffic.  They can't point guns at people.  They can't drive on the opposite side of the road.  They can't arrest prostitutes.  They can't act as prostitutes.  They can't carry possess drugs at any point.


Do you really need me to continue with how they are exempt?


----------



## HotelCo

Linuss said:


> Do you really need me to continue with how they are exempt?



Yes.
(10char)


----------



## reaper

No, what I need is to see this law that gives them this great authority?

And no, they do not get in my unit, if I don't agree!


----------



## Shishkabob

reaper said:


> No, what I need is to see this law that gives them this great authority?



Oh, so cops AREN'T allowed to do all those things I just stated?

Well crap, guess we need to arrest all cops than... for you know, doing their job and everything.


----------



## reaper

If you can not produce a law, that is fine. Just stop playing LEO, unless you can provide evidence to show us.


----------



## Shishkabob

reaper said:


> If you can not produce a law, that is fine. Just stop playing LEO, unless you can provide evidence to show us.



I don't need to provide a law to prove this, as I just gave you evidence proving it.

So, as the reciprocal-

Unless you can prove that they CAN'T do all that I just stated, then you need to stop arguing otherwise.


----------



## reaper

We are here to have an adult discussion. That means providing proof of what you are stating. Opinions, everyone has. When debating a subject, it is up to you to back up your statements. I am just asking for the proof of said statements!

I am walking away from this one, as it is heading toward a lock, again!


----------



## ffemt8978

Okay, I've had enough of this.  I reopened this thread so that we could discuss the fact that charges were not being filed...not so that we could discuss the laws that allow LEO's (or EMS for that matter) to do their jobs.

This thread is now permanently closed...never to be reopened or visited again regardless of what happens.


----------



## Ridryder911

*OHP releases dash cam*

Dash cam is released. 

http://www.kwtv.com/global/story.asp?s=10526689


----------



## JPINFV

All that over, what, a 5 second delay in pulling over? Seriously, someone give that trooper a sedative.


Edit: In before the "Cops can do no harm vs cops are little devils" fight, and the resulting lock.


----------



## medic417

Holy crap he caught up to them on a hill with solid no passing line.  I will not pull over onto a blind shoulder and if I am running code I will not pass on a blind hill.  He was behind them less than 10 seconds.  Most people do not check mirrors that often on highways and you can not hear sirens behind you at highway speed.  This cop needs fired.  

As to Paramedic what the hell was he jumping out before the cop even approached the ambulance.  If he stuck his head out and said please hurry I have a patient then closed door a lot of this would not have happened. 

If he felt they needed talked to call them on radio and see if they have patient, if yes wait outside hospital and take care of it.


----------



## silver

medic417 said:


> Holy crap he caught up to them on a hill with solid no passing line.  I will not pull over onto a blind shoulder and if I am running code I will not pass on a blind hill.  He was behind them less than 10 seconds.  Most people do not check mirrors that often on highways and you can not hear sirens behind you at highway speed.  This cop needs fired.
> 
> As to Paramedic what the hell was he jumping out before the cop even approached the ambulance.  If he stuck his head out and said please hurry I have a patient then closed door a lot of this would not have happened.
> 
> If he felt they needed talked to call them on radio and see if they have patient, if yes wait outside hospital and take care of it.



In addition you notice that car on the side of the road (I think is parked), something probably better to stop on the other side of because you would be stopping pretty quick.

Some bad calls by both sides, but in reality if he thinks thats failure to yield he should move to somewhere that has a population greater than 10,000 or whatever this rural town is.


----------



## Ridryder911

medic417 said:


> As to Paramedic what the hell was he jumping out before the cop even approached the ambulance.  If he stuck his head out and said please hurry I have a patient then closed door a lot of this would not have happened.



I would like to clarify, that Maurice the Paramedic has decribed that he saw a passenger in the OHP car (the troopers wife) and thought it might be a patient. This sometimes happens in rural areas, I have had Troopers stop me or meet me with a patient. 

R/r 911


----------



## guardian528

the paramedic that jumped out was very calm in the first little argument, really made the trooper look like an idiot yelling like a 5 year old on a tantrum. he just explained that he was in charge so the trooper should talk to him, and that they had a patient.


----------



## Ridryder911

I also want to describe that the driver (Franks) is a relatively newer EMT/EMS. One of the reasons the Paramedic attempted to interact and inform the trooper of the situation. 

R/r 911


----------



## HotelCo

Summary of the upcoming posts:

Cop was wrong, should be fired.
and
Cops can do no wrong.

I just saved you countless pages of reading, you're welcome.


----------



## HotelCo

Ridryder911 said:


> I would like to clarify, that Maurice the Paramedic has decribed that he saw a passenger in the OHP car (the troopers wife) and thought it might be a patient. This sometimes happens in rural areas, I have had Troopers stop me or meet me with a patient.
> 
> R/r 911



The trooper was coding with his wife in the passengers seat?


----------



## medic417

Ridryder911 said:


> I would like to clarify, that Maurice the Paramedic has decribed that he saw a passenger in the OHP car (the troopers wife) and thought it might be a patient. This sometimes happens in rural areas, I have had Troopers stop me or meet me with a patient.
> 
> R/r 911



My only problem is he left his patient alone.  Had he waited for his partner to get in the back so he could check the other patient fine but leaving patient alone is not a good practice.   I work very remote and we often treat multiple unrelated patients, but at least one of us always stays with the patients in the patient compartment.  

I like that he stood up as person in charge but just disagree with leaving patient.  

And hotel yes the cop needs fired and sued.


----------



## el Murpharino

HotelCo said:


> Summary of the upcoming posts:
> 
> Cop was wrong, should be fired.
> and
> Cops can do no wrong.
> 
> I just saved you countless pages of reading, you're welcome.



Ahhhh, you beat me to the punch.  Linuss must've not been on yet today...

Seems like an overzealous cop who let his emotions take over.  The shoulder was small, at best, and it was a double solid line - the cop could have used a little prudence and good judgement and slowed down just a touch until he crested the hill; it hardly slowed down the cop in regards to his total response time to the initial scene.  Also, the cop seemed to only get physical after another cop showed up.  Police are supposed to play impartial mediator in most situations and keep their cool despite unwelcoming situations.  Unfortunately, it wasn't the case here.  That being said, the medic wasn't doing the best for his patient or the situation by jumping out of the ambulance right away.


----------



## ResTech

Both videos were very upsetting to watch... for what its worth I wrote to the OK Dept of Public Safety expressing my disgust for Trooper Martins actions. Hopefully more people do as well.


----------



## JCampbell

WOW ...someone needed a vacation, badly. The car in front of the ambulance probably heard the troopers siren and saw an ambulance behind him and pulled over abruptly, while the driver of the rig probably couldn't hear as well due to noise in the cab. Combine that with poor rear visibility and a car suddenly slowing down in front of you, drawing your attention ahead, plus narrow gravel shoulders and you get a delay in pulling over. I would do the exact same thing. Remember we are taught that it's much better to take it slow and get there alive, then make sudden, rash driving decisions in a 10,000lb plus rig.


----------



## HotelCo

Oh boy, this is the title story on FoxNews.com


----------



## DV_EMT

cop fired,

both ambulance company, EMT and paramedic, and pt should sue the officer(s). thats unacceptable!!!


----------



## Shishkabob

I'm going to make a really long post that I had short.

Ambulance wasn't running code, so it could have pulled over--- the car in front of it did.

Medic pushed cop.

Medic resisted lawful orders and arrest multiple times.

*Medic abandoned patient---- TWICE.*


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cop had attitude.

Cop could have handled differently.


Both in the wrong...with a huge difference in what the wrongs were.


----------



## VentMedic

HotelCo said:


> The trooper was coding with his wife in the passengers seat?


 
It's not like ambulances don't run L&S with a patient's family menbers in the truck as well as following in their POVs speeding though the red lights behind the ambulance.


----------



## HotelCo

VentMedic said:


> It's not like ambulances don't run L&S with a patient's family menbers in the truck as well as following in their POVs speeding though the red lights behind the ambulance.



We also don't respond to police emergencies. The hospital is very different then some sort of police emergency.


----------



## medic417

VentMedic said:


> It's not like ambulances don't run L&S with a patient's family members in the truck as well as following in their POVs speeding though the red lights behind the ambulance.



What happens when he gets there to aid his fellow officer and a shoot out ensues?   Much different than if the parent of a child rides with us, as no one else is allowed to ride.  Plus police cars run much faster than the average ambulance.   Would she be an additional distraction to the cop?


----------



## Shishkabob

Raise your hand if you've done a ride along with a cop who went code?


*Raises hand*


Mmkay.  Now that we have that established--- yes, police cars go faster but have MUCH better handling characteristics then big boxes do.

Add on top of that the sheer amount MORE EVOC and hazard driving training that police get over the average EMT and medic... in fact ANY EMT/Medic.





I for one am more scared of a partener going 50 weaving in and out of traffic.




medic417 said:


> What happens when he gets there to aid his fellow officer and a shoot out ensues?



Every cop I've ridden with tells you exactly where the panic button is, how to put the car in gear, and where the release for the M4/Shotgun is if a suspect is coming at you with a weapon and the cop is down.  They don't kid around with ride-alongs.  They tell you like it is, just as a medic preceptor will, and tell you you can get hurt or killed while doing a ride along.


----------



## JPINFV

Linuss said:


> Mmkay.  Now that we have that established--- yes, police cars go faster but have MUCH better handling characteristics then big boxes do.
> 
> Add on top of that the sheer amount MORE EVOC and hazard driving training that police get over the average EMT and medic... in fact ANY EMT/Medic.


Thank you for establishing that it might take a few seconds for the big ambulance to safely move out of the way and yield to the cruiser. If that's what that officer considers 'failure to yield,' then I bet he's giving out a ton of failure to yield tickets. 




> I for one am more scared of a partener going 50 weaving in and out of traffic.



Weaving in and out of traffic is stupid and dangerous at any speed in any conditions.


----------



## Shishkabob

JPINFV said:


> Thank you for establishing that it might take a few seconds for the big ambulance to safely move out of the way and yield to the cruiser. If that's what that officer considers 'failure to yield,' then I bet he's giving out a ton of failure to yield tickets.
> .


Huh?

He pulled in to the oncoming lane of traffic to pass by a car that had pulled over for the officer.


----------



## medic417

Linuss said:


> Did we watch the same video?
> 
> He pulled in to the oncoming lane of traffic to pass by a car that had pulled over for the officer.



No he was in the road and has a much heavier bigger piece of equipment than the car was.  As soon as he passed the car he pulled over.  Plus no matter how you look at it 10 seconds to get someones attn and them to get moved over is by no means hindering an officer running code.  

The cop ran up on him on a blind hill with no safe way to pass.  

As to weaving in and out of traffic comment you made earlier, no we don't do that.  If my partner attempts it they are quickly reminded it is not allowed.  Happens again they are fired.  

And as to your mentioning the officer telling passengers how to get a gun so if something happens, does that mean you feel any untrained person can pick up a gun and properly defend themselves?


----------



## JPINFV

I guess he could have slammed on his breaks to stop (I won't argue against anyone suggesting that the ambulance was following the car too closely provided that it was acknowledged that the cruiser was too close to the ambulance), but that would have definitely caused the cruiser to swerve, if not collide with the ambulance. Still, if those few seconds are what that officer considers a "failure to yield" then that really is stretching it a bit.


----------



## Shishkabob

You asked what happens when a shootout ensues when they have a ride-along... I told you what they tell you at the beginning.


It's been proven that people with little to know experience with firearms can't hit crap (scientific word, I know), but I'd much rather have the option of having a firearm if for some reason I am not able to flee and someone just killed a cop and is walking towards me.


It's rare, but not unheard of for an officer to be shot infront of a ride-along, or both the officer and ride-along get killed.  If my life's in danger, you bet your butt I want all the tools available.

(But lets stop that conversation before it gets in to a "Well maybe they should stop ride-alongs" argument)


----------



## medic417

Linuss said:


> but I'd much rather have the option of having a firearm if for some reason I am not able to flee and someone just killed a cop and is walking towards me.
> 
> 
> It's rare, but not unheard of for an officer to be shot infront of a ride-along, or both the officer and ride-along get killed.  If my life's in danger, you bet your butt I want all the tools available.



So I will take that as your support for the right of EMS to carry a concealed firearm.


----------



## ffemt8978

Let's not turn this into another EMS Firearms debate.


----------



## medic417

ffemt8978 said:


> Let's not turn this into another EMS Firearms debate.



LOL, but it is the natural evolution of the subject.


----------



## Shishkabob

medic417 said:


> So I will take that as your support for the right of EMS to carry a concealed firearm.



I was the very first reply to that thread...


But to make it easy;



Linuss said:


> LEOs get guns, Firefighters get axes, what do we get?
> 
> "If you don't stay back, I'll open my OB kit and get my sterilized scalpel!"


----------



## Ridryder911

Let's clear up some things. The EMS unit only less than 10 seconds to pull over. The trooper was in fault for not running Code 3 (L/S) rather just with lights only (state violation unless for armed robbery, etc.). Also, he was too close to an emergency vehicle to be seen; remember the old adage .. _if we can't see you _? OHP is supposed to be an authority on all transportation modes.. hence he violated the law as coming to close to an emergency vehicle (no matter with or without running hot). 

He had a passenger. Sorry, unless you are a trained, bonded, CLEET authorized officer; you have NO business riding along. OHP is well known for their vehicle maneuvers and speeds >100 mph as well as the tragic events that might occur from high speed chases and possible altercations. Do I want to have to pay for her injuries or harm.. hell NO! 
In Oklahoma the laws pertaining emergency driving is for all EVO's._ "Must use safety at all times, so that lives, property is not endangered."_ Sorry, passing on a curve in a no passing zone (I know that area, very well) is not. 

The Trooper touched the Paramedic first, hence he was informed by the Paramedic that he had in fact just violated the law. Sorry, no probable cause, no need in doing so. He has NO legal authority as long as their is a patient within the EMS. 

Let's face it, the Trooper is history. No matter what. No other OHP will want to be associated with his reputation. Chances are he might get a drivers examiners job, but I doubt it. 

If you have not seen Maurice White, CCEMT/P FOX news interview (No Where to Hide) please watch. He explains everything in great detail and this was before the release of the dash cam. 
http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video...//www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,526128,00.html

There is NO abandonment. I have discussed with the OSDH which regulates EMS and their attorneys. Not even a consideration of it. Sorry, it just doesn't meet any of the criteria. 

Alike I said, the Trooper has scheduled a press conference on Monday in which I imagine he will apologize and probably resign (if he is smart). Then the personal litigation's can occur and yes they will win. 

R/r 911


----------



## HotelCo

Ridryder911 said:


> Let's clear up some things. The EMS unit only less than 10 seconds to pull over. The trooper was in fault for not running Code 3 (L/S) rather just with lights only (state violation unless for armed robbery, etc.).



On the dash cam video, I heard sirens during the first encounter with the ambulance. They probably didn't hear it due to highway speeds. But, it was there.


----------



## Shishkabob

Ridryder911 said:


> Let's clear up some things. The EMS unit only less than 10 seconds to pull over. The trooper was in fault for not running Code 3 (L/S) rather just with lights only (state violation unless for armed robbery, etc.).
> 
> R/r 911



Rid, do me a favor.


Watch the video, first pass of the ambulance.  Top middle portion, you'll see the letters "LS"  This means "Lights/Siren".  If you turn on your speakers, you can also hear sirens blaring.  Now, for the second part where he pulls the ambulance over for the violation, yes, only lights. Even more so, I have yet to see a single officer, EVER, get disciplined for using only their lights to pull over a vehicle on a residential road.  

Add on top of that, you can't possibly say to me you've never had just your lights on, and no siren, at some point throughout your entire career.

Also, check your time.  The ambulance first comes in to view at 8 seconds.  The ambulance passes the civilian at 28 seconds.  The ambulance doesn't pull over for the officer until 33 seconds.  That's 23 seconds more than your proposed, and wrong, 10 second claim.







> Also, he was too close to an emergency vehicle to be seen; remember the old adage .. _if we can't see you _? OHP is supposed to be an authority on all transportation modes.. hence he violated the law as coming to close to an emergency vehicle (no matter with or without running hot).



The cop car didn't just spawn out of mid air.  He was driving up to the ambulance. 

Again, if the car infront of the ambulance saw/heard the cop even with a big ambulance behind him, pulled over, and the ambulance passed him on the other lane, the EMT has no excuse. 



> He had a passenger. Sorry, unless you are a trained, bonded, CLEET authorized officer; you have NO business riding along.


  Thank god it's not up to you.  I think every person in emergency services should do AT LEAST one ride along with the other services.  Fire and EMS with cops, and cops with Fire or EMS.





> In Oklahoma the laws pertaining emergency driving is for all EVO's._ "Must use safety at all times, so that lives, property is not endangered."_ Sorry, passing on a curve in a no passing zone (I know that area, very well) is not.


  Explain the ambulance passing the car in a no passing zone then.  There we NO brake lights AT ALL until the OHP started passing the ambulance.  The ambulance didn't slow down a single bit when the car in front of him abruptly pulled to the side of the road... and you're calling the cop unsafe?





> The Trooper touched the Paramedic first, hence he was informed by the Paramedic that he had in fact just violated the law.



Look at 3:00.  You can clearly see the medic push the officer.    The DA, who I'm quite confident knows a heck of a lot about criminal law, even said that the medic assaulted the cop.  Assault has always been, and will always be, the first touch, not the second.




> Let's face it, the Trooper is history. No matter what. No other OHP will want to be associated with his reputation. Chances are he might get a drivers examiners job, but I doubt it.


  I hope not.  The medic broke plenty more laws then you are saying the OHP did.  If the officer gets fired, the medic should be terminated with extreme prejudice as well.




It really baffels me on how you're missing all the wrong that the EMS crew did, and only zoning in on the officer.


----------



## amberdt03

Ridryder911 said:


> The trooper was in fault for not running Code 3 (L/S) rather just with lights only (state violation unless for armed robbery, etc.).
> 
> 
> R/r 911



uhhh you might want to watch that video again, cause i'm pretty sure he was running lights and sirens.


----------



## fortsmithman

Ridryder911 said:


> I would like to clarify, that Maurice the Paramedic has decribed that he saw a passenger in the OHP car (the troopers wife)


Responding Lights and sirens to a call with your wife in the passenger are grounds for suspension in many law enforcement agencies.  The only way his wife could travel in the unit is if she were a fully sworn member of his agency.  If she were a member then she and her husband would not be assigned to the same unit this is due to the fact that many law enforcement agencies prohibit married couples from serving in the same vehicle.  I don't think the trooper should be fired.  He should be suspended for a couple of weeks and maybe compelled to do a few ride a longs in an ambulance.  That way he would get a better understanding of EMS.


----------



## VentMedic

HotelCo said:


> We also don't respond to police emergencies. The hospital is very different then some sort of police emergency.


 
It doesn't matter where you are going to. You still take the same risks on the road with the L&S. And, as from the thread I posted earlier about seatbelts, someone probably won't be restrained in the truck putting not only that person in danger but also all in the back.

In this situation, it was very lucky the ambulance was not running L&S since there were members of the adult patients family in the truck as well as a convoy of 4 or 5 cars following close behind as per the Paramedic Maurice in his report. 

PDs have civilian ride-alongs all the time for a variety of reasons. On this forum some are just making assumptions that everything the LEO did was wrong just because they are siding totally with EMS. This subject has become similar to arguing for your favorite football team and ignoring any good qualities of the other team's players.


----------



## Shishkabob

fortsmithman said:


> Responding Lights and sirens to a call with your wife in the passenger are grounds for suspension in many law enforcement agencies.  The only way his wife could travel in the unit is if she were a fully sworn member of his agency.



Wait what?


Want to provide some fact based evidence?


----------



## ffemt8978

Linuss said:


> Wait what?
> 
> 
> Want to provide some fact based evidence?



This is NOT the forum to discuss LE ride alongs while driving with lights and sirens.  Keep it on topic.


----------



## HotelCo

VentMedic said:


> It doesn't matter where you are going to. You still take the same risks on the road with the L&S. And, as from the thread I posted earlier about seatbelts, someone probably won't be restrained in the truck putting not only that person in danger but also all in the back.



My point wasn't so much the L&S, as where they were going. I should have made that more clear in my original post. What if he was called to an active shooter and his wife was in the car?


----------



## VentMedic

fortsmithman said:


> Responding Lights and sirens to a call with your wife in the passenger are grounds for suspension in many law enforcement agencies. The only way his wife could travel in the unit is if she were a fully sworn member of his agency. If she were a member then she and her husband would not be assigned to the same unit this is due to the fact that many law enforcement agencies prohibit married couples from serving in the same vehicle. I don't think the trooper should be fired. He should be suspended for a couple of weeks and maybe compelled to do a few ride a longs in an ambulance. That way he would get a better understanding of EMS.


 


> A woman riding as a passenger in Martin's cruiser at the time has been identified as his wife.
> 
> West did not know the woman's name and *said having a spouse in a car does not violate OHP policy.
> *


 
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/arti...rticleid=20090613_12_A1_OKLAHO939517&allcom=1


----------



## Shishkabob

Vent beat me.


Delete por favor?


----------



## VentMedic

HotelCo said:


> My point wasn't so much the L&S, as where they were going. I should have made that more clear in my original post. What *if he was called* to an active shooter and his wife was in the car?


 
That would be a known incident and provisions could be made just as they are for all called where civilian ride-alongs are concerned. As well, a LEO is not going to put himself immediately in harm's way. They also are trained for scene safety and probably much more so than some in EMS who rush in.


----------



## medic417

VentMedic said:


> That would be a known incident and provisions could be made just as they are for all called where civilian ride-alongs are concerned. As well, a LEO is not going to put himself immediately in harm's way. They also are trained for scene safety and probably much more so than some in EMS who rush in.



Obviously he missed that class since he was responding hot while his wife was with him, to an officer needing help.


----------



## HotelCo

VentMedic said:


> That would be a known incident and provisions could be made just as they are for all called where civilian ride-alongs are concerned. As well, a LEO is not going to put himself immediately in harm's way. They also are trained for scene safety and probably much more so than some in EMS who rush in.



Very well.

He could have been doing a traffic stop. It goes bad. Suspect sees another body in the car starts shooting. Personally, I wouldn't put my spouse in that situation. It may not violate OHP policy, but it still doesn't sit well with me.


----------



## Shishkabob

medic417 said:


> Obviously he missed that class since he was responding hot while his wife was with him, to an officer needing help.



Officer requesting help doesn't always mean "DANGER!" Could mean "I need someone to transport a suspect" as not every cruiser has a cage.


----------



## VentMedic

medic417 said:


> Obviously he missed that class since he was responding hot while his wife was with him, to an officer needing help.


 
And you are also making assumptions since the details of why she was in the car were not given. 

I also can not speak, nor can you, for the policies of all the PDs in the U.S. but I did post the statement from a Captain in the OHP.


----------



## ResTech

I think the point is this.... the Trooper instigated the ENTIRE incident and is the reason it escalated. The Trooper showed no professional courtesy and was obviously high on a power trip. As an EMS provider... you protect your pt. and train, and train, to always do best for your pt. That Paramedic was in "protect my pt" mode and was focused on an uninterrupted level of care and just wanted to get his pt. to the hospital. The Paramedic did nothing wrong. H ewas very cool, calm, and collected given the :censored: nature of this Trooper. 

I for one don 't see people as titles.. I see them as people... so badge or no badge makes no difference to me whatsoever. Respect is earned not demanded by a badge and gun. I know I would have had more words to say to that officer then the Paramedic did. 

There is no defense for this Trooper and I hope he is fired as soon as possible.


----------



## Shishkabob

ResTech said:


> The Paramedic did nothing wrong. H ewas very cool, calm, and collected



I'll withdraw my first comment, BUT;



I don't get how there are such varying views on the same exact video.  The proof is in the digital pudding.  You can see the incoreect actions on BOTH sides, yet people still give the medic a freebie.


----------



## fortsmithman

I'm just glad my service has an excellent relationship with the local RCMP detachment.  For any call involving mental health, violent, and suicide calls the RCMP will respond and we don't enter the scene unless they are present.  In Fort Smith we have a population of 2500 people and our RCMP detachment at full strength consists of.

1 Sergeant
1 Corporal 
7 Constables
2 Auxiliary Constables

We get along with all of them.


----------



## Shishkabob

Yeah, that's how the run it around here, as it should be run in all places.

Police go in to any unsafe scene, and EMS comes in when cleared.


----------



## ffemt8978

Okay, I'm done removing inflammatory posts from this thread.


----------



## medic417

*How Long Before You Report Drivers? - Time Stamps of Trooper Passing Ambulance*

I found this break down of the time stamps of the Oklahoma trooper coming up and passing the ambulance very interesting.  

13:55:55 On a curve. Ambulance and car ahead.

13:55:59 About to crest hill on no passing zone.

13:56:02 Car in front of ambulance pulls over.

13:56:03 Ambulance passes car.

13:56:05 Pass complete.

13:56:08 Trooper now moving to left.

13:56:09 End of no pass zone.

13:56:10 Ambulance begins moving over

13:56:13 Pass complete


So in total less than 20 seconds went by and was only on bumper of ambulance a few seconds.  So my question is since this trooper thought it justified arresting the "ambulance driver" for failure to yield, how long do you wait for a person to yield before you call them in?  Have you ever called a person in that refused to move over?  Are there any black and white laws as to how many seconds/minutes constitute failure to yield, or is this left up to each person to interpret?


----------



## amberdt03

medic417 said:


> I found this break down of the time stamps of the Oklahoma trooper coming up and passing the ambulance very interesting.
> 
> 13:55:55 On a curve. Ambulance and car ahead.
> 
> 13:55:59 About to crest hill on no passing zone.
> 
> 13:56:02 Car in front of ambulance pulls over.
> 
> 13:56:03 Ambulance passes car.
> 
> 13:56:05 Pass complete.
> 
> 13:56:08 Trooper now moving to left.
> 
> 13:56:09 End of no pass zone.
> 
> 13:56:10 Ambulance begins moving over
> 
> 13:56:13 Pass complete
> 
> 
> So in total less than 20 seconds went by and was only on bumper of ambulance a few seconds.  So my question is since this trooper thought it justified arresting the "ambulance driver" for failure to yield, how long do you wait for a person to yield before you call them in?  Have you ever called a person in that refused to move over?  Are there any black and white laws as to how many seconds/minutes constitute failure to yield, or is this left up to each person to interpret?






i'm not trying to start another debate, but i'm pretty sure he never said anything about arresting the emt driving, he only said he was going to give him a ticket.



i've never had any problem with anyone not pulling over for me while running hot....but that could be cause we are a childrens ambulance and who doesn't want to get out of the way for kids. i've had a problem with people riding my tail while we are running hot, especially during rush hour. guess they think we are there to clear a lane of traffic for them. anybody ever had a problem with that?


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## Shishkabob

Ambulance and car were visible at 13:55:45. If you can see someone on a dash cam, there is no reason why you couldn't see it in person.  Dashcams are really grainy and of poor quality.


Also, watch the video a bit more closely.  The double yellow stops just before the cop moves left.


But as for your question;



medic417 said:


> Are there any black and white laws as to how many seconds/minutes constitute failure to yield, or is this left up to each person to interpret?





> T.C.A. 55-8-132. Operation of vehicles and streetcars on approach of authorized emergency vehicles.
> 
> A. Upon the immediate approach of an authorized emergency vehicle making use of audible and visual signals meeting the requirements of the applicable laws of this state, or of a police vehicle properly and lawfully making use of an audible signal only:
> 
> 1. The driver of *every other vehicle* shall yield the right-of-way and *shall immediately* drive to a position parallel to, and as close as possible to, the right-hand edge or curb of the roadway clear of any intersection, and shall stop and remain in such position until the authorized emergency vehicle has passed, except when otherwise directed by a police officer; and


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## daedalus

I have only reported one driver, the driver of a city Sanitation truck. I was behind him while my nurse was struggling to keep a burn patient's airway open on our way to USC. He refused to pull over and flipped me off when I finally passed him at a red light.

I would be VERY lucky in Los Angeles to get a vehicle to pull over as quickly as that ambulance did. By my standards, that ambulance got out of the way pretty fast. This is not a comment in support of any one side of the other debate, it i merely an observation weighed against what my experiences are in Los Angeles.


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## ffemt8978

This topic is closed because two previous threads about it have gone downhill in a hurry.


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## ffemt8978

All threads on this topic have been merged into one, and this topic will remain closed.


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