# Ked



## Amber2313 (Dec 10, 2010)

This came up in conversation last night. When covering KED in class, we were repeatedly told it's almost never used around here and that we probably wouldn't in the field. In extrication, we didn't. Just backboards and hold c-spine. 
I've heard some places use them religiously.
How does that go in your area and why? Were you taught the same?


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## MrBrown (Dec 10, 2010)

We threw away longboards years ago .... KED/collar and scoop only


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## TransportJockey (Dec 10, 2010)

I use one whenever I can. And also for things like as a hop splint too. I gate long spine boards.


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## Veneficus (Dec 10, 2010)

ems.amber911 said:


> This came up in conversation last night. When covering KED in class, we were repeatedly told it's almost never used around here and that we probably wouldn't in the field. In extrication, we didn't. Just backboards and hold c-spine.
> I've heard some places use them religiously.
> How does that go in your area and why? Were you taught the same?



used a ked only 5 times in my entire career. Infact, I can remember all of them.

1st to get somebody out of a rollercoaster car that had no way to get a spineboard anywhere close.

2nd. When a VFD felt it was important that they cut a victim out of the drivers side despite unrestricted access to the passenger side. (basically they needed to play with their toys since all it did was prolong the extrication.) She was completely stable, but I figured some precaution probably should be taken for the event. (apparently the fact that I had cut more people out of cars than that whole VFD probably ever did had no influence on voted in officers decisions)

3. For a lady who was actually on the phone with her lawyer when we got there, sitting in a car that another car bumper tapped at idle while stopped at a light.

4. As a splint for a broken hip, before I figured out there were easier and less painful methods.

5. As a long board for a kid because we used all of ours in an MCI.


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## MrBrown (Dec 10, 2010)

Do not get KED and AED mixed up, man that ended badly for Brown!


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## lightsandsirens5 (Dec 10, 2010)

MrBrown said:


> Do not get KED and AED mixed up, man that ended badly for Brown!



Wow you are right!!!

We actually use them fairly often. They are falling out of favor though. They just take so darn long to put on properly. A fair portion of our MVA pts are "unstable" anyhow, so it is ruled out right there. 

Brown, did y'all seriously do away with LSBs?


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## MedJPavlo (Dec 10, 2010)

Like i said in our conversation, I have never used a KED. We always let fire pull them out holding cspine then transfer to a backboard


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## Amber2313 (Dec 10, 2010)

MedJPavlo said:


> Like i said in our conversation, I have never used a KED. We always let fire pull them out holding cspine then transfer to a backboard



Lol. We already talked about this. I don't think you count, but for the sake of the conversation here in the thread... Haha.


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## MrBrown (Dec 11, 2010)

lightsandsirens5 said:


> Brown, did y'all seriously do away with LSBs?



Yes, you will not find a long spine board on our ambulances ... Brown did once and upon investigation was told it was "for show"


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## EMSLaw (Dec 11, 2010)

lightsandsirens5 said:


> We actually use them fairly often. They are falling out of favor though. They just take so darn long to put on properly. A fair portion of our MVA pts are "unstable" anyhow, so it is ruled out right there.



The "book" says that you're supposed to be able to apply a KED in less than 10 minutes. 

The "book" fails to realize that 10 minutes is easy with plenty of space in an EMT class, and not so easy in the front seat of a crumpled up car when it's 40 and raining.  And you haven't used the blasted thing in nine months.

I think I've used it twice in the last year.  Protocol requires it on all stable, seated patients who require c-spine precautions.  That protocol was apparently omitted from many people's copies, because it rarely seems to happen.  Also, for MVAs, either the patient is generally out of the car when we arrive, or so bad off that they need rapid extrication.


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## clibb (Dec 11, 2010)

Ha a patient with a broken L2 (found out after). She was in incredible pain when we just moved her a little bit to get her to the back board. So we put a KED on and then moved her. She didn't feel any pain when we did that. I love the KED, back boards will be out of commission soon.


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## lightsandsirens5 (Dec 11, 2010)

EMSLaw said:


> The "book" says that you're supposed to be able to apply a KED in less than 10 minutes.



Yea, the book also says (and my MPD agrees) that I am supposed to be rolling towards the hospital or LZ within 10 minutes of calling on scene when I have a critical trauma pt. If I spend 10 minutes putting on a KED in the vehicle, well, I guess I have to be able to drive faster than the speed of light so that time will go backward.


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## spike91 (Dec 12, 2010)

I personally love the KED. Not difficult at all and I feel like you get a better packaging that way as compared to a long board.


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## reaper (Dec 12, 2010)

The KED should take no more then 5 minutes to apply. It is a great device and should be used often. 

Had a medic at another service that was just to lazy to use it. He was called to court in a personal injury case and was ripped apart by the lawyer. A KED is in the standards and if you do not use it, you better be able explain why!

I make new basics use it on every MVC they are on, so they can get used to applying it, in a safe, fast manner. 

Don't get me wrong. I do not use it on all pts. But if there is a call for it, you better use it. They are there to be used. I would rather use a KED and dump the LSB.


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## Veneficus (Dec 12, 2010)

EMSLaw said:


> Protocol requires it on all stable, seated patients who require c-spine precautions..



I think stable and c-spine are mutually exclusive statements.

Surely a force that can injure a spine has injured everything else along the way to one of the most protected structures in the body?

Incidentally, if there is inflammation of the compartments around the spine, pressure from any device will actually run a significant risk of occluding the spinal o2 supply faster. 

Just saying.


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## MrBrown (Dec 12, 2010)

lightsandsirens5 said:


> ... I am supposed to be rolling towards the hospital or LZ within 10 minutes of calling on scene when I have a critical trauma pt. ...



Not to worry Lights, Brown is coming!

Looks good Oz, clear to ground, Ambulance two o'clock low, no lines
Ambulance, Medivac descending ... 

Yes hello Dr Brown here, one of the helicopter medical doctors, say, what is all this white stuff on the ground?


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## Fox800 (Dec 12, 2010)

We don't carry KED's at any of the busier, more legit places I've worked. The only place I worked that had one was a small, one-ambulance collegiate ALS service. Never saw it used.


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## Bosco836 (Dec 24, 2010)

ems.amber911 said:


> This came up in conversation last night. When covering KED in class, we were repeatedly told it's almost never used around here and that we probably wouldn't in the field. In extrication, we didn't. Just backboards and hold c-spine.
> I've heard some places use them religiously.
> How does that go in your area and why? Were you taught the same?



They seem to be used a fair bit around here, especially with MVC's with patients requiring C-Spine Control.  Although they may be a pain, it has been my experience that they tend to be a very effective tool for helping to immobilize a patient who is still sitting in his or her vehicle (and arguably, provides better spinal immobilization during extraction than attempting to hold c-spine and slide the pt. onto the backboard).


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## C.T.E.M.R. (Dec 24, 2010)

were being told to really start using them or be able to explain why we didn't.


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## AnthonyM83 (Dec 25, 2010)

If a lawsuit happens be ready to explain why it wasn't used as the EMS textbooks they'll use to judge you will indicate KED should have been used (unless your protocols protect you).

And if you use it often shouldn't normally take even 3 to 4 min. Many exceptions like tight cars and bulky clothes. But it shouldn't generally be used on critical patients, anyway. But for the critical patients yes 10 min is the goal from arrival to departure...many times that won't be possible but many many times it will if everyone works at a good pace as if the patient's life might depend on that time factor...cause it might.


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## Medic2409 (Dec 25, 2010)

Once in 7 years, on a pt. who rolled her vehicle.  The car came to a stop at a 45 degree angle up against a tree, no way to get a bboard in, KED was the only way we could extricate.


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## nakenyon (Dec 25, 2010)

Aside from trainings, I can only recall one time in three years that I have used a KED. It was for a lady who was in the back seat of a pickup (think jumpseat) and there was no possible way of getting a LSB back there. Aside from that, the KED remains generally untouched.


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## kosovamedic (Jan 28, 2011)

I remember that last yerar I asked my Boss to bring this tool to our unit, but i got a strange question,:
Who will use it?
I said, me...
He was smiling, and after said,You will never need it....
but he was not right, because we needed it only after three nights..
What to do, the life is like that....


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## NomadicMedic (Jan 28, 2011)

I use it fairly often. It doesn't take long to apply and makes packaging easy. 

We also have Oregon Spine Boards, like a KED, only better.


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## TransportJockey (Jan 28, 2011)

n7lxi said:


> I use it fairly often. It doesn't take long to apply and makes packaging easy.
> 
> We also have Oregon Spine Boards, like a KED, only better.



Can you maybe post some pictures of the Oregon Spine Boards? Never heard of them


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## akflightmedic (Jan 28, 2011)

jtpaintball70 said:


> Can you maybe post some pictures of the Oregon Spine Boards? Never heard of them



http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Oregon+Spine+Board


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## Lady_EMT (Jan 28, 2011)

*KED? What's That?*



akflightmedic said:


> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Oregon+Spine+Board



I'll have to remember that site, haha

But, back on topic, I was told the same thing, that I would never use it. But in the past four or five months, I've used it probably 3-4 times. It's useful when you're at and awkward angle and can't get a backboard in a prime spot. I've also used it on patients with chronic back problems. (Had a guy who had spinal fusions and fell outside, and sat down in his car. Used the KED to get him out of the car so that he was a bit more "comfortable.") When you need it, it's real nifty. Otherwise, I've never really seen regular situations to use it. It's hit or miss.


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## TransportJockey (Jan 28, 2011)

akflightmedic said:


> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Oregon+Spine+Board



Heh, once I get to a computer I will google it myself thank you  LMGTFY doesn't actually work when I try to view it on my phone. I figured I had that coming though


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## hocomedic (Jan 30, 2011)

learned how to use it in class, never used it in the field and never seen it used in the field


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## NomadicMedic (Jan 30, 2011)

hocomedic said:


> learned how to use it in class, never used it in the field and never seen it used in the field



Maybe you can be the person at your service that starts using the KED. How about talking to your boss about an in service/refresher on when and why the KED is a valuable tool. 

Things don't change unless someone takes the bull by the horns.


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## Hockey (Jan 31, 2011)

My random basic skill for medic was KED.  Everyone (even the proctor who was there previously told me) said they always do long board.  

I practiced one time in EMT school.  One time in Medic school.  Always with help.

Talk about pucker factor.  But then I realized its really all common sense.  Never used it in the field.  Saw it once before prior to our arrival was already on.

I think KED and I are about to begin a long good relationship


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## DesertMedic66 (Jan 31, 2011)

When i was a firefighter explorer we used the KED on most of the MVC that we were called to. personally i feel that once the KED is on it makes moving the Pt much easier (because of the handles). And when the Ked is on the Firefighters would have to cut less of the car up (saving time to get the Pt transported) And when i started the EMT program we did the KED countless times.


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## Dr.T (Jan 31, 2011)

Over here in Germany we have only KED for vehicle extrication.
Longboards are slowly beginning to spread here.
Scoop stretchers have a long history here....
That's why I probably could apply KED all blindfolded and upside down, 'cuz I've used it that many times.
There's basically no delay of transport, if you know the bits and pieces of KED 
I like it actually......


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## Jon (Jan 31, 2011)

Around here, folks are also afraid of the KED. I wish I could use it more.

I met Rick Kendrick last year (@EMSToday). He's an awesome, down to earth guy. He pointed out that it's also useful as a Pt. Transfer device when the Pt. Is in a weird position - like a lift assist out of a bathtub.

If anyone has actual questions for him, PM me and I'll seek him out at EMSToday this year.


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## nakenyon (Feb 21, 2011)

Jon said:


> I met Rick Kendrick last year (@EMSToday). He's an awesome, down to earth guy. He pointed out that it's also useful as a Pt. Transfer device when the Pt. Is in a weird position - like a lift assist out of a bathtub.



Interestingly enough, I used a KED to extricate a patient off of a toilet in a very small bathroom just the other day. It would have sucked to get a reeves or a LSB in there. +1 for the KED.


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## Bullets (Feb 22, 2011)

KED is used all the time, mostly by me, mostly cause when the FDgets on scene they can be a bit rough with the patient. it also gives me something to do if im th weasel and not cutting

Then we put them on vaccuum matresses, which kick any LSB or scoops butt


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