# are we doing our future students a disservice?



## DrParasite (Apr 29, 2011)

had an interesting discussion with a paramedic today about going to medic school.  He said going to paramedic school right now was a bad idea because the aren't many full time paramedic openings state wide.  that got me thinking to California, where there are something like 25 unemployed paramedics for every full time opening.  lots of per diem positions, very few FT ones.

I spoke to a law student, as well as a recent law graduate who is doing an internship in the county prosecutor's office, and both of them dissuaded me from going to law school because there are a lot of unemployed law grads.

I also know that companies hold training classes 911 dispatchers, and many of their graduates are still looking for jobs; yet more classes are still being scheduled, despite the fact that there are no jobs available for the students.

So while education is never a bad thing, are we, the EMS community and the US as a whole, overly advocating getting advance training, especially when there isn't the job market to get jobs in those fields?


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## rescue99 (Apr 29, 2011)

It is this way for an awful lot of professions these days. Sad as it is, if colleges stop producing, there will be a shortage before we know it. Education is like any other business. They are there to provide a service to anyone willing to pay the cost, despite any immediate need. I know a lot of nurses and Medic grads looking at the HIT field as an alternative career.


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## BEorP (Apr 29, 2011)

A bit different situation, I guess, but I think that the colleges in Ontario are doing a huge disservice to students by continuing to pump out Primary Care Paramedic grads given the job market in Ontario currently. It is sad to talk to students who have no hope of finding a job in their home province. This isn't something that comes from _us_ in EMS though, this is simply a matter of the programs making lots of money for the colleges. That doesn't make it right, but there isn't much that can be done about it from the EMS side of things in this case.


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## JPINFV (Apr 29, 2011)

Should schools act as the sole gate keeper to manage the amount of people entering a field? 

If there's an excess, should all paramedic schools simply close until the shortage passes?


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## systemet (Apr 29, 2011)

JPINFV said:


> Should schools act as the sole gate keeper to manage the amount of people entering a field?
> 
> If there's an excess, should all paramedic schools simply close until the shortage passes?



I don't think it's the school's responsibility.  However, I think situations where there are larger number of applicants than available jobs represent the perfect time to increase training duration.  It seems like this is a good time to make better educated graduates, who (hopefully) would have an advantage chasing the few available jobs.

While I'm not currently working in EMS, I was always lucky to be in the situation where the market for EMTs was beyond saturated, but all the major (and minor) services were screaming for paramedics.  It resulted in poor prospects for the EMTs, and terrible working conditions for them in the private services.  Being a medic was a whole other gig (although, so was being an EMT in a publically funded service).

I think the major agency that can control the output of new grads is whatever body licenses and accredits the various educational programs.  Where I've personally seen major problems it's been where large numbers of privately run paramedic and EMT programs have been allowed to start up.  These organisations benefit from keeping the training as short and accessible as possible, and don't have as much of an incentive for quality.  The more training academies you have, the more likely saturation is to occur.


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## Hellsbells (Apr 30, 2011)

Sorry to say, but the responsibility rests squarely on the shoulders of the student. It is an individuals own responsibility to research the job market and prospects before choosing to invest their hard earned cash in any educational program.


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## nemedic (May 1, 2011)

hellsbells said:


> sorry to say, but the responsibility rests squarely on the shoulders of the student. It is an individuals own responsibility to research the job market and prospects before choosing to invest their hard earned cash in any educational program.



 +1.


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## firetender (May 1, 2011)

From this day forward job prospects will be increasing thanks to my generation, the Baby Boomers, marching off into the sunset!

(Or is that being carted off into the sunset? By you?)

Personally, I think if you have the chance to get into paramedic school now, pretty close to the time you get out the job market will be opening again.

Nursing has a similar boom/bust pattern. A lot of people are going to be needing to get from here to there, and even more  will be running into worse troubles than that!

You'll be needed.


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## Melclin (May 1, 2011)

Firstly, increasing the requirements stops every Tom, **** and Harry from getting their P which can dry up the sea of useless patch factory medics getting in the way.

Mostly though, the argument for increasing the standard of education is all about exactly that, increasing the _standard_ not about increasing the number of graduates. Its largely a separate issue. 

"Don't worry about being dangerously undereducated, you won't get a job anyway". Is that what you are suggesting we tell students instead?


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## rescue99 (May 1, 2011)

Melclin said:


> Firstly, increasing the requirements stops every Tom, **** and Harry from getting their P which can dry up the sea of useless patch factory medics getting in the way.
> 
> Mostly though, the argument for increasing the standard of education is all about exactly that, increasing the _standard_ not about increasing the number of graduates. Its largely a separate issue.
> 
> "Don't worry about being dangerously undereducated, you won't get a job anyway". Is that what you are suggesting we tell students instead?



Students seriously need more time to mature today. I'm all for adding requirements related to trade education, and for social reasons. 

Today's kids are not developing socially or professionally as they should. Manners, social skills, civil responsibility; these are all but missing in probably 60% of 18-22 year olds right now. Gaps in social behavior and independence is so wide compared to just 5 years ago. Even my own kid, 22, is in this immediate gratification crowd and I see how much influence he fights against...The social (external) curriculum is really failing our kids today. I'm all for improving educational standards to include more in-depth courses related to what we're actually seeing out there, not just in EMS related material. If there's a really good reason why a BS should be required, this is it.


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## systemet (May 2, 2011)

rescue99 said:


> Today's kids are not developing socially or professionally as they should. Manners, social skills, civil responsibility; these are all but missing in probably 60% of 18-22 year olds right now. Gaps in social behavior and independence is so wide compared to just 5 years ago.



I'm not saying you're wrong, but doesn't every generation say this about the next generation?  Don't you think we just carry around an idealised view of how we were at that age, and compare the current generation to that?


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## bstone (May 3, 2011)

There are plenty of communities looking for F/T medics. You have to go where the jobs are. Staying in big metro areas might not be an option and moving might be required.


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## Veneficus (May 3, 2011)

systemet said:


> I'm not saying you're wrong, but doesn't every generation say this about the next generation?  Don't you think we just carry around an idealised view of how we were at that age, and compare the current generation to that?



Yes and No I think.

Each generation grows up with different challenges than the preceding. 

They need different knowledge, skills, and abilities to face their (today's) reality and not yesterday's. (ours)

As the knowledge of man and the demands of society increase, it takes longer to impart all of the knowledge, skills, and abilities, it takes longer to teach these people such a quantity. 

Back when there wasn't much to know or do, having kids at 13 or 14 was the norm.

When any other animal is borne it starts out ahead developmentally as humans. It has oly a few lessons to learn. 

Somebody with the knowledge, skills, and abilities of say 1900 is probably completely unprepared to function as a contributing member of today's society in any role bt a historian.

So while for time immemorial the newer generation may look defective to the older, we all somehow made it this far, and people will in all likelyhood be creeping around long after we are gone.

Human society develops infinitely faster than human biology.


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## oneday (May 5, 2011)

We have the same problem here in Australia, Victoria.

The current graduating year has been forced to go rural (application preferences only in rural areas). The fact is that with only one major employer in the state those doing the degree really have no choice in regards to applying elsewhere and either must move for employment to other states or simply play along with the current employer and apply to go rural. (this brings a few issues to the graduates and universities however thats another story)

Interesting statistics: the state government pledged $151 million for 340 new paramedics over the next 5 years. 
 If my maths is right that's 62 per year. Plus the number leaving the service (104 last year). So basically they'll be looking for around 170 paramedics per year. and there are ~400 graduating each year.

Not to mention there are 2 new universities in victoria starting the degree with thier first intake set to graduate in 2013-2014, increasing the number of graduating paramedics to minimum of 550 in 2013-2014.

Good situation for the single employer. not a good situation for the aspiring paramedic.


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## MrBrown (May 5, 2011)

oneday said:


> Not to mention there are 2 new universities in victoria starting the degree with thier first intake set to graduate in 2013-2014, increasing the number of graduating paramedics to minimum of 550 in 2013-2014.
> .



We might have 50 or 60 Paramedic graduates nationally each year from the Degree.

Please, tell your surplus to come here!


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## medicdan (May 6, 2011)

Melclin said:


> Firstly, increasing the requirements stops every Tom, **** and Harry from getting their P which can dry up the sea of useless patch factory medics getting in the way.
> 
> Mostly though, the argument for increasing the standard of education is all about exactly that, increasing the _standard_ not about increasing the number of graduates. Its largely a separate issue.
> 
> "Don't worry about being dangerously undereducated, you won't get a job anyway". Is that what you are suggesting we tell students instead?



I don't think that's the real question being asked. Let us assume all educational institutions uphold high standards, and are reputable-- release good medics/EMTs into the world. Who should be controlling the number that enroll and ultimately make it into the workforce. I think we all agree it's not the responsibility of established educational institutions, and the economist in me would say that we should leave market forces to work it out... but it's still a lot of money and time that's underutilized...


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## zmedic (May 6, 2011)

One issue is that there are a lot of people who may benefit from EMT training even if there isn't an open 911 ambulance slot. Ski patrol, search and rescue, camp councilors, lifeguards, river guides etc. So there may be a benefit to giving people a chance to get that training (this applies less to paramedic since it is such a long course)

The other thing is regional variation. I don't have good data but I suspect that while there may be states life California that have too many medics, there are likely other states that are hurting for them. 

Thirdly when you have a crazy system like the US where there are fire departments that want everyone on a fire truck to be a medic, you have to have a lot of training capacity to do that. This leads to a lot of medics floating around.


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## Emt512 (May 7, 2011)

Theres no shortage of jobs in Texas...


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