# ratted out partner



## VA Transport EMT (Feb 6, 2014)

Just ratted partner for testing while driving, feel like :censored::censored::censored::censored:. Advice/opinion?


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## the_negro_puppy (Feb 6, 2014)

Snitches get stitches


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## TheLocalMedic (Feb 6, 2014)

You try talking to them about it first?


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## medicdan (Feb 6, 2014)

VA Transport EMT said:


> Just ratted partner for testing while driving, feel like :censored::censored::censored::censored:. Advice/opinion?





Would you like a cookie or a medal? I sure hope your partner was testing you on CPR or something you're supposed to know... Gawd forgive they ensure you are competent at your job!



I sure hope you approached your partner and spoke with them respectfully, asking them not to text, or used an "I statement" to express your fears, "I worry about your driving when you're texting. I'm happy to drive if you have messages you need to send, but ask that you not text when behind the wheel."



The fact you are proud of this, and even labeled it as "ratting out" appears that you took pride in it-- your action was motivated by embarrassment or revenge rather than road safety, which worries me. Gold star, VA Transport EMT.


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## VA Transport EMT (Feb 6, 2014)

the_negro_puppy said:


> Snitches get stitches



I'm going to call you to take me to The er because they look funny And because i felt sick for twenty one days


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## RocketMedic (Feb 6, 2014)

You did exactly the right thing, VA Transport EMT. Yes, it's good to try and get issues resolved at the lowest possible level...and in this perfect world, your partner would be intelligent enough to not put you in that position in the first place by _not texting and driving._

Sure, it sounds like an :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: move, and doubtless people will label it as such- but texting and driving is innocent until it isn't. Until you're in an accident, and your job is on the line for not doing anything about it. It's innocent until the fire department is extricating someone from the car your rig smashed. It's innocent and fun until it's your femur you're looking at snapped in half. Then it's serious.

The real :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: move isn't reporting this guy, the :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: move is texting and driving in the first place.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 6, 2014)

VA Transport EMT said:


> I'm going to call you to take me to The er because they look funny And because i felt sick for twenty one days



You're not funny. 

You are "that guy."

You should work on your people skills. Especially considering the business you're in. Snitching is a third grade mentality; trying discussion is the adult thing to do. Rather than making waves, and then passive-aggressively posting it anonymously on the internet, why don't you come clean to the guy who is going to be written up.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 6, 2014)

RocketMedic said:


> You did exactly the right thing, VA Transport EMT. Yes, it's good to try and get issues resolved at the lowest possible level...and in this perfect world, your partner would be intelligent enough to not put you in that position in the first place by _not texting and driving._
> 
> Sure, it sounds like an :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: move, and doubtless people will label it as such- but texting and driving is innocent until it isn't. Until you're in an accident, and your job is on the line for not doing anything about it. It's innocent until the fire department is extricating someone from the car your rig smashed. It's innocent and fun until it's your femur you're looking at snapped in half. Then it's serious.
> 
> The real :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: move isn't reporting this guy, the :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: move is texting and driving in the first place.



Extreme scenario(s)

There are umpteen hundred thousand people texting and driving right now. I'm sure you can think of a time when you did the same. Perhaps even maybe you were reading an EMTlife post, or posting yourself, while driving.

While I understand the importance of road safety, being a snitch in this business - the people business - is not going to be well received by the colleagues whom you sit with for literally half of a day, half of the week.

While you post makes it seem like texting and driving is equivalent to opening up and duel wielding machine guns into a kindergarten class, it is not that serious. By your standards eating behind the wheel, taking a drink of water, changing the radio, telling a joke to your partner, contacting dispatch, itching your foot for a second, etc etc are all grounds for "unsafe" driving, and you should be tattling for that too.

How about a "hey partner, can I drive?" Or a "can that wait until we get to post?"


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## Ridryder911 (Feb 6, 2014)

You should had discussed it with the person first *BUT* if they were driving and texting; they placed all lives in jeopardy. 

Sorry, I *do not* believe in the "code" or "brotherhood" method either. There is too much crap that is already covered up. You want to be a within a profession then act as such. Discuss matters that are wrong so the individual has a chance to correct (within reason), then they don't correct, you bet report. Hopefully, management can encourage a change or remove them if they fail to do so.  

R/r 911


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 6, 2014)

VA Transport EMT said:


> Just ratted partner for testing while driving, feel like :censored::censored::censored::censored:. Advice/opinion?





Considering the typos- I feel like you were typing _this_ while driving.



Tell me otherwise.


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## Ridryder911 (Feb 6, 2014)

SandpitMedic said:


> Considering the typos- I feel like you were typing _this_ while driving.
> 
> Tell me otherwise.



Now, that's funny...


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## TheLocalMedic (Feb 6, 2014)




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## VA Transport EMT (Feb 6, 2014)

omedicd said:


> Would you like a cookie or a medal? I sure hope your partner was testing you on CPR or something you're supposed to know... Gawd forgive they ensure you are competent at your job!
> 
> I sure hope you approached your partner and spoke with them respectfully, asking them not to text, or used an "I statement" to express your fears, "I worry about your driving when you're texting. I'm happy to drive if you have messages you need to send, but ask that you not text when behind the wheel."
> 
> The fact you are proud of this, and even labeled it as "ratting out" appears that you took pride in it-- your action was motivated by embarrassment or revenge rather than road safety, which worries me. Gold star, VA Transport EMT.



I don't know any way other than to describe it. Tattletaling is the same as ratting some one Out.
the Incident occurred with a pt in the Back and caused him to swerve on the interstate. Also during the day he took a selfie of the window to The back of showing the stretcher,me and himself. Later,he stole a Poster From ahospital. The texting while driving thing is just atop of the iceberg.
Edit: the pt was on the stretcher


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## VA Transport EMT (Feb 6, 2014)

SandpitMedic said:


> Considering the typos- I feel like you were typing _this_ while driving.
> 
> Tell me otherwise.



On my phone, to cheap to buy tapatalk.

As fir the others, i offered more than one to drive, he said he had a massive headache and couldn't be aic. I do my best to avoid conflict and asked his regular partner for some advice. Was told if i didn't report it, he would kill someone


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## CPRinProgress (Feb 6, 2014)

I don't understand people on this forum sometimes.  Most of the time people preach about safety and how people are stupid for doing things that are considered dangerous.  Now this person is avoiding a dangerous situation and everyone is up in arms.  If you don't want someone to tell on you doing something wrong, don't do it.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 6, 2014)

CPRinProgress said:


> If you don't want someone to tell on you doing something wrong, don't do it.


 
I heard that in the 2nd grade. Now we're grown... It's not black and white... We live in a grey world. Like I said, no one (being, the average person) wants to work with a snitch, and EVERYONE bends the rules at some point. The job is stressful enough without worrying about some one looking over your shoulder ready to fink on you if you slip up. And that is the stigma/perception that goes with being a snitch. I'm not saying there is not a time and place for reporting unsafe or stoooopid behavior, but I am saying there should be a reasonable degree of escalation to that point. 

The guy came off as gloating, rather than trying to preach safety. 

People are going to say different things, but some of the extreme scenarios of crashing and burning in a firey wreck are a little over blown. Plenty of people do dangerous stuff everyday. Not that it's ok, but this isn't Mayberry. You adapt and overcome to survive the dumb-dumbs out there. And you talk to your partners.


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## TheLocalMedic (Feb 6, 2014)

CPRinProgress said:


> I don't understand people on this forum sometimes.  Most of the time people preach about safety and how people are stupid for doing things that are considered dangerous.  Now this person is avoiding a dangerous situation and everyone is up in arms.  If you don't want someone to tell on you doing something wrong, don't do it.



Of course texting while driving is dangerous, and even stupider with a patient in the back.  I think what some of us are objecting to is the means of addressing the problem.  You don't have to go full nuclear for any issue you encounter.  Sometimes it's just as effective to kill a spider with a rolled up newspaper as it is to burn your entire house down.  Talking to your partner directly first about a problem may be as effective as having a supervisor talk to them about it, and you may not make an enemy in the process.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 6, 2014)

Also, it sounds like the alledged assailant is a 18 or 19 year old kid who needs a good talking to.

 When I first started and did dumb stuff my partner, who was more obviously more experienced, told me to calm down my driving. He informed me that I was not driving my own car or only responsible for myself while I was driving the ambulance. He made it clear to me that when I was driving I was responsible for the lives of everyone on that rig, and I was responsible for their safety and well being. Did I want to tell his wife I was sorry for speeding while talking on the phone and not paying attention at his funeral, or did I want to be safe and smart?

 More than just a class room lecture or some slide show, or some boss man spewing EVOC after 4 consecutive days of mind draining orientation. It was personal, it was my partner being a partner. That's what it took. It didn't take a snitch, and had it been a snitch I would have been so pissed off and frustrated that someone ratted, and thinking who-dun-it, I wouldn't even have been listening to the supervisor accross the table telling me the exact same thing. I would have heard the teacher from snoopy...

Did I like it at the time? No! I was like what a d*** to call me out, but he was right... 5 years later and I still remember that. I keep it in mind to this day when I drive.


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## Handsome Robb (Feb 6, 2014)

CPRinProgress said:


> I don't understand people on this forum sometimes.  Most of the time people preach about safety and how people are stupid for doing things that are considered dangerous.  Now this person is avoiding a dangerous situation and everyone is up in arms.  If you don't want someone to tell on you doing something wrong, don't do it.




It's not the fact that people disagree that it is unsafe. More disagreeing with the pathway that was insinuated in the original post.

I can't stand people who go straight to jail, do not pass go, do not collect 200$... Texting and driving is inexcusable but you bet your *** I'm going to address my partner first about it, probably the second time too before taking it up the chain.


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## VA Transport EMT (Feb 6, 2014)

Robb said:


> It's not the fact that people disagree that it is unsafe. More disagreeing with the pathway that was insinuated in the original post.
> 
> I can't stand people who go straight to jail, do not pass go, do not collect 200$... Texting and driving is inexcusable but you bet your *** I'm going to address my partner first about it, probably the second time too before taking it up the chain.



I posted the entire day if you look on the middle of page two


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## TheLocalMedic (Feb 6, 2014)

VA Transport EMT said:


> I posted the entire day if you look on the middle of page two



Right.  Sounds like there were several things that your partner was doing that irritated you.  But again, at any time did you address it with them directly?  Offering to drive isn't the same as saying, "Hey, I'd appreciate it if you weren't texting while you drive.  It makes me a little uncomfortable."


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## VA Transport EMT (Feb 6, 2014)

TheLocalMc;521399Right. Ssomeonyds like there were several things that your partner was doing that irritated you.  But again said:
			
		

> http://thebadassblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/grow-a-pair.jpg[/IMG]



Since i asked for your opinion, I'll bite. How many times is necessary before you realize it's not working? There are only so many ways to tell someone they are stupid. Provide me with twelve hours of statements that say, "Ho, stop that," before you just give up? How many accidents will it take you ask? One. I don't care if it's just me and him texting, but there was a patient who expects us to give 110% every time we see them. You might base your care on how You want your family treated but i treat my patients how i would have treated A police officer/fireman/boss/etc.


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## TheLocalMedic (Feb 6, 2014)

VA Transport EMT said:


> Since i asked for your opinion, I'll bite. How many times is necessary before you realize it's not working? There are only so many ways to tell someone they are stupid. Provide me with twelve hours of statements that say, "Ho, stop that," before you just give up? How many accidents will it take you ask? One. I don't care if it's just me and him texting, but there was a patient who expects us to give 110% every time we see them. You might base your care on how You want your family treated but i treat my patients how i would have treated A police officer/fireman/boss/etc.



You seem to be evading the question, so I'll ask it more bluntly and provide pre-formatted responses.  

Did you ask your partner to stop texting and driving?  (Hint: this is a 'yes or no' question only, there is no credit for things like, "I hinted at it" or "I offered to drive".)

YES            or             NO

If you answered YES, great!  You did the right thing.  And if you already addressed the problem with them, and it continues to be a problem, then you may be justified in bringing it to a supervisor.  

If you answered NO, then you probably made a mistake.  Unless the issue is VERY significant (theft, narcotic diversion, abuse, sexual harassment etc.) you should always address the issue directly with your partner.  

Not only will talking to them directly generally correct the problem, but you'll show both your coworkers and your management that you are confident and competent, and not 'that guy' who brings every little problem directly to a supervisor.


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## VA Transport EMT (Feb 6, 2014)

TheLocalMedic said:


> Yyeem to be evading the question, so I'll ask it more bluntly and provide pre-formatted responses.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Yes i answered yes plenty of times.


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## triemal04 (Feb 6, 2014)

Robb said:


> It's not the fact that people disagree that it is unsafe. More disagreeing with the pathway that was insinuated in the original post.


What the hell is the matter with you people?  And yeah, I mean everyone who posted in this thread.


VA Transport EMT said:


> Just ratted partner for testing while driving, feel like :censored::censored::censored::censored:. Advice/opinion?


What part of that insinuates in any way, shape, or form that this was done in one particular way or another?

A person comes on, says they just reported their partner for unsafe actions and feels bad about it, and the immediate response is to jump their :censored::censored::censored::censored: because...why?

Talk about a highschool mentality...


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## STXmedic (Feb 6, 2014)

VA Transport EMT said:


> Yes i answered yes plenty of times.



Your posts are directly above this. Not once is it mentioned that you asked him to stop. The only expressed intervention you've alluded to is that you "offered more than one to drive". My guess is this was indeed the only way you addressed the issue with your partner. 

I'm with the others- grow up and _directly_ ask him to stop. I'd even side with Rob on giving him a second warning. If he persists, then by all means.


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## ffemt8978 (Feb 6, 2014)

STXmedic said:


> I'd even side with Rob on giving him a second warning. If he persists, then by all means.



First the Seahawks win the Super Bowl, and now this?  No wonder why it's been so cold outside.  :rofl:

Back on topic, I agree with what has already been stated in this thread about asking directly once or twice, after which it gets escalated.


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## STXmedic (Feb 6, 2014)

ffemt8978 said:


> First the Seahawks win the Super Bowl, and now this?  No wonder why it's been so cold outside.  :rofl:
> 
> Back on topic, I agree with what has already been stated in this thread about asking directly once or twice, after which it gets escalated.



They had the Super Bowl already? Didn't the Seahawks just have their fluffer game last week? :unsure:


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## usalsfyre (Feb 6, 2014)

VA Transport EMT said:


> I posted the entire day if you look on the middle of page two



But did you call him out on unacceptable behavior? 

Avoidance of conflict means you a) have no social skills b) don't have the backbone to say what's right. As someone with a fair bit of social anxiety I get it. It's stressful as :censored::censored::censored::censored: to say something to him. But at some point you have to be an adult about it. The original action was childish, you came here to get validation of the action to assuage your guilt and when it didn't happen you've defended yourself in a childish manner. It tends to put doubts in people's minds. 

I don't know how old you are but seem as socially immature as I was when I started at 18. Do yourself a favor, find a mentor and run what your going to do by them first. Your life will be much easier in the long run.


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## unleashedfury (Feb 6, 2014)

If you gave appropriate warnings to your partner before "diming him/her out" then you did the right thing. 

My workplace adopted a "sterile cockpit rule" as they call it. No Cellular Devices are to be in the Operators hand while behind the wheel of the Emergency Vehicle. 

If a phone call is to be made it is to be done at a stop. whether you pull over at a gas station, or at the hospital, or anywhere where the vehicle is in park to alleviate the "I use my phone for GPS coordination" we were retrofitted with GPS units that we were all inserviced on how to properly use. You punch in your coordinates before leaving your post or station. 

Your crew member holds onto pagers and such and answers the radios this alleviates any distractions that may prevent you from keeping your focus on the road. We thought of retrofitting headsets but the association felt that the cost wasn't warranted. the secondary crew member who is not driving may use a cellular device as needed. While making patient contact the only time a cell phone may be used is to notify the hospital for report or requesting medical command. 

This all stemmed from one of our drivers who was texting while driving with a pt. on board rear ended someone. Luckily it was a minor accident. She initially claimed she was looking at the pager to see where another call was except that wasn't a bullet proof alibi since we didn't have another call and the Ops man knew it.


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## RocketMedic (Feb 6, 2014)

VA, you did the right thing. Maybe not the most politically correct way, but you did the right thing. Its better to take the hard right over the easy wrong.


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## VA Transport EMT (Feb 7, 2014)

Thanks Rocket. Maybe I might find myself a mentor, I am twenty one as of last Tuesday and would hopefully have a long career ahead of me. Since I'm still new, I ran it by a few people to see the general reaction and they all told me to report him. Still feel like crap though, hopefully one adult bevarage will solve that problem this weekend. Knew I could count on my emtlifers. 

Heiniken or Sam Adams?


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## STXmedic (Feb 7, 2014)

Macallan.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 7, 2014)

triemal04 said:


> What part of that insinuates in any way, shape, or form that this was done in one particular way or another?
> ...



The words "I ratted" insinuate a whoooole lot.


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## ffemt8978 (Feb 7, 2014)

SandpitMedic said:


> The words "I ratted" insinuate a whoooole lot.



Point: SandpitMedic


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## VA Transport EMT (Feb 7, 2014)

If it quacks, then it's a duck


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## triemal04 (Feb 7, 2014)

SandpitMedic said:


> The words "I ratted" insinuate a whoooole lot.


That insinuates nothing, other than that the person saying it feels that it isn't right to inform superiors about improper behavior.

Your posts, on the other hand, insinuate a whole lot about you.  Check that, your posts, on the other hand are a very clear depiction of what you believe.


SandpitMedic said:


> You're not funny.
> 
> You are "that guy."
> ...
> Snitching is a third grade mentality;


So reporting improper behavior is "snitching," which you are very clear in labelling as wrong.


SandpitMedic said:


> ...being a snitch in this business - the people business - is not going to be well received by the colleagues whom you sit with for literally half of a day, half of the week.


Again...reporting improper behavior is being a "snitch."  

I strongly encourage you to grow up; I think a saying there was a highschool mentality may have been being to generous.


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## 18G (Feb 7, 2014)

I have a zero tolerance for texting and driving at work. I had this situation. I told my EMT partner to stop and that it is not cool. I then seen him do it again when I was in the back with a patient and the ambo was all over the place. I told my supervisor who had a stern discussion with him and hasn't been an issue since. 

Give the person a chance to correct it first. If they don't, then whatever happens is in their hands and not yours.


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## Anu (Feb 7, 2014)

I would think (and hope) that of all people an ambulance driver would have the common sense to know better than to text and drive.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 7, 2014)

Guess we're 50/50 on the issue. 

That's right, immediately reporting your partner's no-no without first opening dialogue with them personally for corrective action is snitching. (Unless it is an inexcusable action that places others in imminent danger- I don't think a text constitutes imminent danger-)

You want to be a pariah, go for it. I wouldn't want to work with him.

Like everything else, you picked and chose some quotes out of context. You have other options before you report up.

I just wrote all this while driving; no one was maimed or killed. I can think of bigger fish to fry than a dude who just needs little guidance.


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## jrm818 (Feb 7, 2014)

SandpitMedic said:


> Guess we're 50/50 on the issue.
> 
> That's right, immediately reporting your partner's no-no without first opening dialogue with them personally for corrective action is snitching. (Unless it is an inexcusable action that places others in imminent danger- I don't think a text constitutes imminent danger-)
> 
> ...



Boy thank goodness you were able to write that immediately - totally novel take on the issue that absolutely couldn't wait to be posted until you had reached your destination.  Definitely worth the risk of texting while driving.  I'm sure everyone around you on the road would agree that this post was worth it too....

There - you've had some guidance and been asked to drive safely.  Next time does someone get to snitch on you?



For the record I agree with a warning before going to a sup., and have had to do it myself about speed and texting, but I don't get this texting while driving thing....do any of you who do it really think you are just as safe while texting?  Have you never heard of a serious MVA due to texting?  Or are you just better at splitting your eyeballs than the rest of us?  Or do you just lack any semblance of impulse control?  How hard is it to just focus on driving when you're behind the wheel of a multi thousand pound speeding hunk of metal and gasoline?


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 7, 2014)

jrm818 said:


> Boy thank goodness you were able to write that immediately - totally novel take on the issue that absolutely couldn't wait to be posted until you had reached your destination.  Definitely worth the risk of texting while driving.  I'm sure everyone around you on the road would agree that this post was worth it too....
> 
> There - you've had some guidance and been asked to drive safely.  Next time does someone get to snitch on you?
> 
> ...



Lol. That was sarcasm, I wasn't really driving. Just representative of the million texts that were just sent or received by someone behind the wheel.

I agree, sometimes there are wrecks due to texting, as well as drinking, tuning the radio, dropping a cigarette, not looking right, running a red light, eating behind the wheel, turning around to yell at your kid, driving too fast, driving too slow, driving and mapping, or because someone else hits you. 

There are a myriad of reasons why collisions occur. But likening texting and driving to being a ruthless serial killer is just astounding to me. 

I've seen people do some stoooopid stuff on scene that either compromises patient care and/or disregards safety. I have also yelled at my EMT driving to pay attention, slow down, get off the phone- as thousands have before me. I have yet to tattle on anyone. I've had many constructive conversations though.

And no matter what you say- everyone knows they should t be texting and driving. Maybe that's why ambulance companies shouldn't hire 18, 19, 20 year olds. And no matter what you say or preach- if you walk into your ready room and tell everyone there that if someone texts and drives you are going to tell on them immediately, you'll be the fattest black sheep in the building. 

I can think of a dozen senior medics who command respect, who have years on the job and I can promise you that each and every one of them wouldn't rat out their partner for something as silly as texting without first talking to them and slapping some sense into them.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 7, 2014)

SandpitMedic said:


> We live in a grey world..... I'm not saying there is not a time and place for reporting unsafe or stoooopid behavior, but I am saying there should be a reasonable degree of escalation to that point.



See what I said? Don't take my comments out of context.

Clearly, we are not going to agree.

Some folks are in the zero-tolerance camp; others are in the "lets talk about this and fix it" camp.


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## triemal04 (Feb 7, 2014)

I'm sorry, you can try and minimize what you've said all you want, but your posts make it very clear that you think it's wrong to report improper behavior.  

If you'd like to talk about taking things out of context, here's what you left out of your own post that you quoted:





SandpitMedic said:


> Like I said, no one (being, the average person) wants to work with a snitch, and EVERYONE bends the rules at some point. The job is stressful enough without worrying about some one looking over your shoulder ready to fink on you if you slip up. And that is the stigma/perception that goes with being a snitch.


Again, I think your feelings on "snitching" with or without a prior warning to the offender are very clear.






SandpitMedic said:


> I just wrote all this while driving; no one was maimed or killed.





SandpitMedic said:


> Lol. That was sarcasm, I wasn't really driving.


 
For some reason I highly doubt that.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 7, 2014)

Sheesh!


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## NomadicMedic (Feb 7, 2014)

It's obvious you guys don't agree, so how about we put an end to the sparring... before it gets to this.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 7, 2014)

Yeah, don't need that. Your picture brings an excellent case and point though: even cops give warnings for texting and driving.

Soap box over.


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## NomadicMedic (Feb 7, 2014)

No ... cops *write tickets *for texting and driving.


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## 9D4 (Feb 7, 2014)

http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/...ing-cause-of-death-for-teen-drivers-1.5226036
http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/fi...us-than-Driving-while-Drunk.html#.UvWim_ldX9M
I'll just leave this here for educational purposes. Since some need it.


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## vcuemt (Feb 8, 2014)

If you are indeed in Virginia, as it seems you are, texting while driving is against the law. I don't doubt your agency has a prohibition against it as well that goes above and beyond VA's labeling it a secondary offense. It would be absurd for us as health care providers to apply our skills to patient care - no doubt judging patients we come across in motor vehicle crashes who didn't wear a seat belt or put themselves into serious trouble by not paying attention... perhaps while texting? (I know I do exactly that) - and not practice what we preach. Texting behind the wheel is just plain dumb. Would I recommend you report your partner after the first offense, without talking to them first? No, that wouldn't endear you to your fellow EMS. But you'd be well within your rights. An EMS behind the wheel that doesn't realize texting while driving a goddamn ambulance is WRONG doesn't deserve to be behind that wheel. _Privilege _vs. right.

The folks who talk about the "code" or the "brotherhood" and put that before the safety of ourselves and our patients... I just don't get that. I don't owe any partner my life or well-being. And I don't know if I've ever met a patient who called 911 to get worse.


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## TheLocalMedic (Feb 8, 2014)

The debate here isn't about whether texting while driving is unsafe.  Of course it isn't safe.  

The debate is how one should deal with a partner who does it.  If you see a problem, talk to the person to resolve it.  Putting them on notice should be enough to fix it.  But if it doesn't, then move it up the chain.  That is what a good employee and partner does.  

The whole "brotherhood" thing that keeps getting brought up negatively is ridiculous, and I haven't seen anyone actually arguing that you have to abide by some "code".  The people bringing it up are throwing out a red herring.  This isn't about some secret boys club, it's about using common sense and addressing problems directly.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 8, 2014)

TheLocalMedic said:


> The debate here isn't about whether texting while driving is unsafe.  Of course it isn't safe.
> 
> The debate is how one should deal with a partner who does it.  If you see a problem, talk to the person to resolve it.  Putting them on notice should be enough to fix it.  But if it doesn't, then move it up the chain.  That is what a good employee and partner does.
> 
> The whole "brotherhood" thing that keeps getting brought up negatively is ridiculous, and I haven't seen anyone actually arguing that you have to abide by some "code".  The people bringing it up are throwing out a red herring.  This isn't about some secret boys club, it's about using common sense and addressing problems directly.



This.

Although, we could draft an EMT code, like the pirates' code. Although, they're more like guidelines.


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## triemal04 (Feb 8, 2014)

Since the thread with the poll disapeared I'll post this here.

I'm not sure why anyone should answer anonymously; if you feel a particular way about this issue, you really should be willing to publically admit it, and stand by what you say.  I'll be happy to do so:

No, I would not want to work with someone who reported me for EVERY LITTLE THING that was wrong.  Even if they talked to me first, if each mistake, no matter how minimal or inconsequential was reported, that would be very annoying.  BUT...I also don't have the childish mentality that someone who reports improper and innapropriate behavior or actions is doing something bad, and is a "snitch," or "fink," or "rat," or whatever other perjorative have been used.  If you do something wrong, you run this risk of getting in trouble.  That is how the world works.  This whole poll (now vanished) is nothing more than a very childish way of "proving" something by asking a very simple question to answer a more complex problem.

The attitude that is displayed of, "me big bad paramedic!  Me follow no rules!  Me do what me want!" is just ridiculous, immature, and counterproductive.  All it will do is anger other people, alienate coworkers and employers, and probably lead to problems down the line.  For instance, I would be willing to bet that departments that have very restrictive policies, harsh discipline, and enforce compliance with a heavy hand do so because the above attitude, and what has been displayed in this thread, were very common at one point, and led to people not doing their job, doing their job poorly, doing their job wrong, and acting like a certain part of the human body.  The sayings "you dug your own grave" and "you made your bed, now sleep in it" come to mind.


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## Restless (Feb 8, 2014)

vcuemt said:


> If you are indeed in Virginia, as it seems you are, texting while driving is against the law. I don't doubt your agency has a prohibition against it as well that goes above and beyond VA's labeling it a secondary offense. It would be absurd for us as health care providers to apply our skills to patient care - no doubt judging patients we come across in motor vehicle crashes who didn't wear a seat belt or put themselves into serious trouble by not paying attention... perhaps while texting? (I know I do exactly that) - and not practice what we preach. Texting behind the wheel is just plain dumb. Would I recommend you report your partner after the first offense, without talking to them first? No, that wouldn't endear you to your fellow EMS. But you'd be well within your rights. An EMS behind the wheel that doesn't realize texting while driving a goddamn ambulance is WRONG doesn't deserve to be behind that wheel. _Privilege _vs. right.
> 
> The folks who talk about the "code" or the "brotherhood" and put that before the safety of ourselves and our patients... I just don't get that. I don't owe any partner my life or well-being. And I don't know if I've ever met a patient who called 911 to get worse.



..word


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## Dragon Pie (Feb 8, 2014)

If you hadn't documented it, it wouldn't have happened.


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## ffemt8978 (Feb 8, 2014)

For those of you that feel it was inappropriate to report this, I have a question about your views.

What does not reporting it say about the person's integrity?  To me, integrity means doing the right thing even when nobody is watching.  Couldn't failure to  report the incident be seen as a strike against that?


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## STXmedic (Feb 8, 2014)

I think you already scared him away, ff :unsure:


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## shfd739 (Feb 8, 2014)

I'll give a partner a couple warnings and mention what's unsafe about their behavior. Texting, speeding, running red lights etc. If they continue to do the behavior I'm telling a sup. play by the rules and be safe or go somewhere else. The last 2 partners I had to ask to stop speeding and running red lights asked to be put on a different unit cuz we didn't get along. They didn't like being told to be safe. When the sup asked me why we couldn't play nice I told the truth. 

And yes I'm also that jerk that calls out other employees for not wearing the uniform right, not shaving, attitude etc. Do what's right, look and act professional or go somewhere else. It's not that difficult. We're all adults and need to act like it.


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## ffemt8978 (Feb 8, 2014)

STXmedic said:


> I think you already scared him away, ff :unsure:



It wasn't me this time...


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## Tigger (Feb 8, 2014)

shfd739 said:


> I'll give a partner a couple warnings and mention what's unsafe about their behavior. Texting, speeding, running red lights etc. If they continue to do the behavior I'm telling a sup. play by the rules and be safe or go somewhere else. The last 2 partners I had to ask to stop speeding and running red lights asked to be put on a different unit cuz we didn't get along. They didn't like being told to be safe. When the sup asked me why we couldn't play nice I told the truth.
> 
> And yes I'm also that jerk that calls out other employees for not wearing the uniform right, not shaving, attitude etc. Do what's right, look and act professional or go somewhere else. It's not that difficult. We're all adults and need to act like it.



Exactly. I'll tell you that you look terrible because even if I look fine, people will only remember how crappy the crew as a whole looked. If you can't look and act like a professional (shocker: policies are usually written to ensure this), we aren't going to get along. Oh well.


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## shfd739 (Feb 8, 2014)

Yep. Or if another crew looks like crap the customer will have that impression of us all.


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## mycrofft (Feb 9, 2014)

Ridryder911 said:


> You should had discussed it with the person first *BUT* if they were driving and texting; they placed all lives in jeopardy.
> 
> Sorry, I *do not* believe in the "code" or "brotherhood" method either. There is too much crap that is already covered up. You want to be a within a profession then act as such. Discuss matters that are wrong so the individual has a chance to correct (within reason), then they don't correct, you bet report. Hopefully, management can encourage a change or remove them if they fail to do so.
> 
> R/r 911



Agreed, but make a note of the time, date, and any witnesses, and don't threaten to do something. Once that person knows you may "rat them out", they may set you up to stop-punch you. Don't threaten; drop the hammer, or don't. 

Then there is shunning. Just tell them and your boss you don't want to work with that person anymore. The boss can ask them why if she or he feels like it.

By the way, "ratting out" as a phrase is one cultural sign of untrustworthiness and bullying being allowed and rewarded.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 9, 2014)

Omg. I'm going to try to lay this to rest.

No one has "scared" anyone off; there are just certain things people won't agree on. Frankly, I'm tired of the back and forth debate where no one is going to change their mind. Look at politics- a bunch of adults hashing things out like grown ups right? Yeah, not so much. Immaturity and lack of professionalism is everywhere. You can't change it by tattle tailing. Integrity? Sure, maybe the right thing to do sometimes is to just do your job; not police everyone else and try to "change" EMS. I can already hear the "just because thats the way it's always been done... etc etc" and "this is how we make EMS better...etc, etc." There are much bigger fish to fry. And let us not forget that in most cases you get what you pay for: 20somethings making $10.25 an hour aren't always going to be your cream of the crop employees. Is that a catch-all to be careless and unprofessional? No it is absolutely not, but you trying to bring about change to your corner of the world in that manner is only going to result in you making enemies and make room for even newer doo-doo heads to make minimum wage in their place. Integrity, yes, it is absolutely paramount to the silent professional. Although, humility is as well. We have all been that guy who made a mistake (and will again)- if you claim not to then you are lying. Constructive criticism and positive dialogue are alternatives that are going to be a much better tool to change your partners behavior and "change EMS for the better" than to immediately go running off to tell on them for something that may be petty. A degree of discretion is required for knowing when something is serious enough to warrant immediately notifying a supervisor or when to have a heart-to-heart with the person you spend half of your life with. Integrity? Sure, but how about trust? How about breeding professionalism by being a professional?  

My opinion is this: there is a time and place for everything. Including a time to try to reinforce ideals with positive criticism and trying to instill professionalism and values onto your partner/colleagues. There is also a time when going up the chain of command is appropriate. 

My comments may have appeared to make me out to be sometime of "paragod" EMT whisperer who doesn't make mistakes and/or does whatever I feel like and walk around looking like a scumbag while being able to talk sense into everyone I encounter on my own. I'm sorry for your misconception, if you had one. I too share the sentiment that you must look the part, and act the part- I'm shaved, boots shined up, neatly put together, and self aware that I represent us all every day I come to work and even while I'm off. My character and moral compass point North, but I am also self aware of the grey area that is life. I have nothing against giving a colleague a hard time when I pass them in the ER hallway or in the ready room when they look as sloppy as the transient I just brought in for chronic sandwich withdrawal. That doesn't mean I am going to go outside and call the supervisor; especially if it's reoccurring as I believe if I see it everyday then so do the supervisors. Therefore if they are incapable of doing their job of policing the lazy bums or trouble makers on the job then who am I to make waves- I'm just going to get my paycheck and go home. I'm referring to "private" organizations and "stepping stone" agencies; generally fire has (or appears to have) less of these types of issues. It is what it is. Does it upset me sometimes? Absolutely, I'd like to be viewed as a professional and I know that there are doo-doo heads out there making us look bad. This is becoming a rant incorporating too many issues and facets of the problem areas of EMS, so I apologize for the tangent. I'm just trying to stem the "well what about when _____" comments and rebuttals. You can't change the world... Not that way any how.

As I said, there is a time and place for everything. And while my inciting poll only added fuel to the heated debate- it did accomplish my point. No one likes "that guy!" No one will trust you. If it is an issue of extreme consequence where the _majority_ of rational others would do the same thing, then I have no issue, and likely the person reporting the improper incident wouldn't become a pariah. 

For instance: 
If you are texting and driving- I'm going to say something to you.
Immediately. Then, when were alone I'm going to explain the reasons why up to and including "because I'm in charge of this rig, and if you want this to stay between us then correct it" before I go higher up. 

For instance:
If I see you smack some dementia patient in the rearview mirror then there's no time for talking to you. There's no diplomatic constructive talking about that. You burn your options down, and I will gladly "drop the hammer" on you. But only for something extremely serious, otherwise that's just shady to me, to not first voice your discontent for something minor.

Necessity... Discretion... Professionalism... Integrity... Trust... Partnership...

All these things tie together in the workplace and in your life outside of this job. If doing the "right thing" is placing yourself in a crappy position with your co-workers (who arguably put you in that position in the first place) then maybe you should seek some alternative options to resolve your unfortunate situation. 

That's just me... Maybe I'm wrong. I can at least admit that, and acknowledge that my outlook may be part of your perception of the "problem." Although, as I've been stating the entire time I believe we have bigger issues than trying to one-up and tattle on each other.

That is to say that sometimes the motive for reporting may be a righteous one.... Sometimes it is just to be a nagging, cowardice, butt head, whining, wanna-be try-hard supervisor. (I am not claiming that was the OP's motive, just stating the obvious possibilities in general.)

For me, "snitching" is a last resort among many, many more efficient options. 

For the sake of my own integrity as a man. 

I'd also like to address the bully thing. It's out of hand...my response is tailored to my interpretation that you are saying calling someone a rat is bullying. These days kids (and people in general) are treated too sensitive, and while I don't condone shoving other people in lockers or toilets, I don't have an anti-bullying t-shirt either. Being overly protective of kids/young adults does nothing beneficial to prepare them for the rigorous stressors and social encounters they are no doubt going to have. "Phrases" should not be deemed as conduits for "socially accepted" bullying. In life sometimes grown ups' opinions hurt other grown ups' feelings, and that's just the way it is. Big boy rules should apply, and folks should find healthy ways to deal with that.
Or I could have completely misinterpreted what you said, in which case I apologize. Regardless, that is a completely different topic for an entirely different thread.

On this topic, I acknowledge your opposing opinions and outlooks, even though I strongly disagree with some of them. Respectfully, there are some of you I hope to never work with, on the off chance I do a rolling stop or don't hit the yelp soon enough at an intersection. I'm sure the feeling may be mutual, and that's okay. Different strokes for different folks. My rant is over, and I will no longer comment on the issue. Thanks for listening though.


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## mycrofft (Feb 9, 2014)

Man, tell me you didn't do that on a pocket wireless device!!!!!


A clarification on (at least, MY) comment about "bullying". I was thinking about and referring to when someone does something which is against the mores of that group (for instance, telling a supervisor a co-worker is being unsafe), then usually one alpha-member of this group declares it to be "Ratting", "Snitching", "Narcing", etc. to rally group cohesion and declare this person and actions outside their set of mores.  

Alternatives are for admin to get rid of alpha member (Wolves do that), or admin to weed out and fire the alpha's supporters and replace them publicly and stating "no more of this", or for the "narc" to tell this bunch of losers to shove it and go get a better job elsewhere.


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## triemal04 (Feb 10, 2014)

SandpitMedic said:


> Immaturity and lack of professionalism is everywhere.


Truer words were never spoken.


> And let us not forget that in most cases you get what you pay for: 20somethings making $10.25 an hour aren't always going to be your cream of the crop employees.


You continually use this as an excuse for your behavior.  Why is that?  Why don't you strive to be better?


You've said before that you do not want to make a career out of EMS and plan on leaving.  Perhaps you should speed up those plans.


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## VA Transport EMT (Feb 13, 2014)

Dragon Pie said:


> If you hadn't documented it, it wouldn't have happened.


Qft


ffemt8978 said:


> For those of you that feel it was inappropriate to report this, I have a question about your views.
> 
> What does not reporting it say about the person's integrity?  To me, integrity means doing the right thing even when nobody is watching.  Couldn't failure to  report the incident be seen as a strike against that?


Qft


STXmedic said:


> I think you already scared him away, ff :unsure:


Nope I'm still here.


Just an update, he didn't lose his job but he has to turn his phone into dispatch before every call


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 14, 2014)

I'll take the bait.



triemal04 said:


> You continually use this as an excuse for your behavior.  Why is that?  Why don't you strive to be better?



First of all, you don't even know me,Sir.. _My behavior?_ _ Excuses?_ What are you talking about? You know what they say about assumptions, right? My conduct and professionalism on the job are just fine; thank you for your concern. I have advanced up the ladder and my finances are quite nice (for my needs) these days, but I have not forgotten where I came from. I will continue to advocate for my brothers and sisters who are compensated at rates far below their worth. Don't get that confused for making excuses for myself or for them.

You continue to live in fantasy land apparently, where working a regular 3/4 schedule at $9.00 an hour is enough to reasonably live comfortably, provide for or build a family with tiny humans, not buy garbage food off of dollar menus constantly, etc etc. Let alone have some extra bread and butter or take a trip.

All while being employed as a professional with (by your own admission) exceptionally high standards and responsibilities above that of your average human. Along with excessive liability, and at potentially high risks to our own health and safety.

Don't get it twisted. Everyone starts somewhere, but the EMS bottom (or even middle too) shouldn't be the economic equivalent of the bottom of the Grand Canyon.


triemal04 said:


> You've said before that you do not want to make a career out of EMS and plan on leaving.  *Perhaps you should speed up those plans*.







Perhaps you have again demonstrated that you don't know me, nor understand the context of my words. Also, that nice little polite jab is unnecessary, but I'm not offended... Sticks and stones love, sticks and stones.


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## SandpitMedic (Feb 14, 2014)

Can we RIP this thread yet Mods? Please. Nothing of value can be added to topic at this point IMO. Not to mention the direction it's headed away from the topic.


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## NomadicMedic (Feb 14, 2014)

And we're done.


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