# Does this make me a bad EMT?



## Lady_EMT (Aug 11, 2011)

Hello, all. I have a kinda stupid story, but I'd love some feedback and help with this.

First off, I'm an AEMT, and belong to a rural volunteer ambulance corps. We run about 1000 calls a year. In our area we have several waterways, including a river, a few ponds, and two large lakes (one being a reservoir).

About a month ago, we got toned out for a 15yo male, possible drowning. Now, having so many waterways, we usually get a couple of these every summer, usually being some kid who swallowed a little water, sputtered for a minute, and scared mom to call the ambulance. Me and a fellow volunteer were the first onscene to the beach, followed closely by a fire chief (we had several fire departments on the way with boats and dive equipment. The ambulance was a little bit behind us, waiting for the crew to be assembled). We come to find a police officer looking around confused. We get out of my car, and a few people run up to us, telling us different variations of the story - theres one person in the water, there's two people in the water, someones drowning, someones lost, they're on this side of the lake, they're on the other side of the lake, etc. I look towards the boat launch, and notice that the fire department has arrived, and is loading boats into the water. The ambulance gets onscene, I tell them to go to the boat launch, and go from there. We get there, send out several boats, while the lifegaurds hired by the lake are looking around as well. Finally, after about 45-50 minutes, command starts thinking that this may be a prank call. I get ahold of dispatch, and ask them to try to get a hold of the original caller, have them find us so that we can figure out what's going on. That's when it happens. One of the boats got around to the opposite side of an island in the lake, and finds a family screaming and crying, stating that their brother/cousin/son went underwater over an hour ago. (Now, mind you, they shouldn't have been in this area of the lake. It is a restricted area.) The divers start looking in that spot. Finally they find the kid. Turns out he was 22, not 15. I look out over the lake, to see the boat coming in, one of the firefighters doing CPR. It suddenly became real to me. I assisted getting the stretcher down, helped load the kid into the ambulance, and jumped in to start doing my job. But suddenly, everything went "funny." I looked at the kid, whom at the time I thought was 15, and all I could think of was my 16 year old brother. The age hit me like a ton of bricks. The whole scene was overwhelming. I won't get into graphic detail, but each tiny thing is still etched into my memory like I'm looking at it right now. I almost vommited, and jumped from the ambulance and made a run to my car. (For the record, I didn't at all compromise care. I was a first responder, so he had all the care he needed from the set crew.) I sat in my car, and sobbed. I could barely drive back to HQ. I was an absolute wreck. It really made me question everything about this "job." I love it, it's something that truly makes me happy, but I suddenly became terrified of the way this call had made me feel. What if this happens in another call? What if I'm actually in charge of a call and this happens to me? What if I can never handle any type of call after this?

I did my first real call since that call last friday. It was a Cardiac Arrest. We get on scene to find enough blood to, at first, suspect a GSW. (turns out the woman had lung cancer.) My stomach tied into a knot, and all I could think about was that I couldn't do this. Suddenly, that exhilerating feeling you get though this job ran through my veins. I shook my head, and jumped on in, doing what I needed to do. I actually threw a combitube, which i'm still SUPER proud about.

So, I guess I have a few things I need reassurance on. First off, does it make me a bad AEMT since I was so terrified by the drowing? I feel like I should be confident and sturdy through everything, and I felt so weak. Second, is it bad that a code and combitube is what brought me back into the game? I'm sorta all mixed up now. I've never been more confident than I am now that this is meant for me. But I'm still hung up on that drowning.

HELP! lol.

Thanks for any input!


----------



## Sasha (Aug 11, 2011)

Im probably going to have an unpopular opinion but if you couldnt handle it to the point that you ran away, then this really isnt the job for you.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


----------



## Lady_EMT (Aug 11, 2011)

Sasha said:


> Im probably going to have an unpopular opinion but if you couldnt handle it to the point that you ran away, then this really isnt the job for you.
> 
> Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk



Assuming you're post got cut off? And I'm sure I'm going to have some responses I don't like.

I've been doing this for almost 4 years, and have seen plenty that would bother me if I wasn't meant for this. I'm just trying at this point to figure out why _this_ particular call bothered me, but why seeing someone who looks like a splattered tomato doesn't. 

Edit::

I think it's just because I thought he was my brother's age at first. All I could see was the face of my brother on his face. He was so young...


----------



## Shishkabob (Aug 11, 2011)

Lady_EMT said:


> So, I guess I have a few things I need reassurance on. First off, does it make me a bad AEMT since I was so terrified by the drowing? I feel like I should be confident and sturdy through everything, and I felt so weak. Second, is it bad that a code and combitube is what brought me back into the game? I'm sorta all mixed up now. I've never been more confident than I am now that this is meant for me. But I'm still hung up on that drowning.



Bad?  No.  Makes you human.  EVERYONE has a call that gets to them.


I honestly don't view what you did any different than someone fainting or vomiting uncontrollably from what they see.  Emotions got to you a single time.


----------



## Sasha (Aug 11, 2011)

Linuss said:


> Bad?  No.  Makes you human.  EVERYONE has a call that gets to them.
> 
> 
> I honestly don't view what you did any different than someone fainting or vomiting uncontrollably from what they see.  Emotions got to you a single time.



You dont view someone as running away as bad?

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


----------



## tickle me doe face (Aug 11, 2011)

Sasha said:


> Im probably going to have an unpopular opinion but if you couldnt handle it to the point that you ran away, then this really isnt the job for you.
> 
> Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk



I have to agree with Sasha,

I vote bad EMT.


----------



## CheifBud (Aug 11, 2011)

A bad EMT? if it doesn't compromise the patients care then generally speaking, No.  Everyone has things that will get to them, kids for example, kids with trauma always make my stomach turn.  Now if this is happening frequently and are having such an impact doesn't mean you're a bad EMT but maybe that EMT is Bad for you.  

I guess to answer the question No, that will happen, but if it is happening often then its always your call, there are other jobs you can use your EMT license in that will involve a lot less traumatic injuries and interact a little less on the down and dirty side and a little more on the health CARE part of it.

I don't think your competence or ability to do you job is at question but DON'T EVER question yourself as a person if EMS isn't something you want to continue, just means you have a bigger heart than the rest of us


----------



## fast65 (Aug 11, 2011)

I'm gonna have to go with Linuss on this one, it just makes you human. Almost every, if not every, EMT will have one call that will truly shake them...the thing is that you can't let that stop you from caring for your patient. There's no shame in crying AFTER a bad call, but you have to do your best to keep your composure on scene. 

Don't let something like this deter you from doing something you love, however, if this starts to become a habit, then you might want to start looking into a different field of work.


----------



## Ryanpfd (Aug 11, 2011)

Ok, Im kind of lost with what to say.
    Ill tell you this though, everyone has a bad call, I have had calls that still 
think about all the time. Its how you deal with them. I dont really know what a AEMT is. Im guessing ALS? But I can tell you that you did legaly abandin your patient, and I would hesitate working with a person who can't take the heat. But we are all human, so Ill leave you with  this. 
                        "The first mistake is a learning curve, the second is a :censored::censored::censored::censored: up"


----------



## Lady_EMT (Aug 11, 2011)

Thank you everyone for your support and replies. As I said, in four years, this was the only time I've ever had this feeling. And since then, I've learned so much more about myself and this field, that I couldn't think of not being a part. It sort of reminded me that these are people, not just patients. Im in love with every aspect, and like a few if you said, it's a good reminder that we are human, not just medical robots.


----------



## Lady_EMT (Aug 11, 2011)

Ryan, as I said, I was simply an extra. My patient's care was never compromised. There was a medic, several other AEMTs (EMT-Is) in the back of the ambulance. If anything, it was a clown car at the moment. I would never allow my patients care to be threatened.


----------



## BEorP (Aug 11, 2011)

My opinion:

Are you a bad EMT for having those feelings? No.

Was it bad to run away? Yes.

Does this one incident mean that you can never be a good EMT? No.


----------



## Steam Engine (Aug 11, 2011)

I don't think this makes you a bad EMT. As you stated earlier and others have pointed out, patient care was never compromised. Also, it sounds like this is a one-time occurence, and that you are trying to learn from the experience. If this has happened in the past or happens again in the future with any regularity, then there would be some cause for concern...barring that, I think you'll do just fine.

Also, it's good that you're able and willing to discuss this experience. If you haven't already, I'd highly recommend talking it over with someone other than an online forum, whether that be family, friends, coworkers, ministers, other health professionals, or whatever. As someone who really doesn't enjoy talking about their feelings I know that it can be tough, but it is certainly beneficial, and even necessary in a lot of cases.

Good luck!


----------



## tickle me doe face (Aug 11, 2011)

Lady_EMT said:


> Ryan, as I said, I was simply an extra. My patient's care was never compromised. There was a medic, several other AEMTs (EMT-Is) in the back of the ambulance. If anything, it was a clown car at the moment. I would never allow my patients care to be threatened.



Had you not been an extra would you still of fled the scene?

If you were the primary provider, would you still have deserted your patient?


----------



## Sasha (Aug 11, 2011)

She didnt compromise care this time, but what about the next call that bothers her? Are you going to run from every call that gets to you?

Maybe im a hard nose but if i was on that scene and you ran, you would no longer be welcome on my scene

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


----------



## Shishkabob (Aug 11, 2011)

Sasha said:


> You dont view someone as running away as bad?
> 
> Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk



You view someone throwing up on scene from seeing something gross as a "Don't ever do EMS" type of event?


----------



## Sasha (Aug 11, 2011)

Linuss said:


> You view someone throwing up on scene from seeing something gross as a "Don't ever do EMS" type of event?



Throwing up isnt the same as physically running from a scene. 

We arent even talking about calmly excusing yourself from the scene, we are talking about fleeing. There is something wrong with that. She was extra THAT time but what about the next 15/22yo she is dispatched to?

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


----------



## HotelCo (Aug 11, 2011)

Sasha said:


> She was extra THAT time but what about the next 15/22yo she is dispatched to?
> 
> Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk



This. 

You might be the only crew on scene for the next one. What then? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Shishkabob (Aug 11, 2011)

Sasha said:


> Throwing up isnt the same as physically running from a scene.



Both inhibit care of the patient, do they not?  Why is one better than the other?


----------



## Sasha (Aug 11, 2011)

You turn your head, throw up and keep going. You are not running away and abandoning them.


----------



## Shishkabob (Aug 11, 2011)

Sasha said:


> You turn your head, throw up and keep going. You are not running away and abandoning them.



You've never seen someone vomit uncontrollably for extended lengths of time, rendering them unable to do anything else?  I have.


What if they ran away to vomit?


----------



## Sasha (Aug 11, 2011)

If they are running away hiding in their car and sobbing hysterically, while throwing up then yes they dont need to be working as am.emt. if they run to throw up amd come back, then it is not the same.

Are you honestly tryingto say its okay to abandon a patient because you cant take it?


----------



## HotelCo (Aug 11, 2011)

Linuss said:


> Both inhibit care of the patient, do they not?  Why is one better than the other?



I can turn my head, throw up, and resume whatever I was doing. 

Can you do the same if you've run away to your car and are crying? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Shishkabob (Aug 11, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> I can turn my head, throw up, and resume whatever I was doing.



And we come back to the "uncontrollable" part of "uncontrollable vomiting" that you and sasha like to ignore 





Sasha said:


> Are you honestly tryingto say its okay to abandon a patient because you cant take it?




If there are more providers taking care of the patient, some of which higher than your level, it's not abandonment, is it?


----------



## abckidsmom (Aug 11, 2011)

Lady EMT, were you in any way in charge of this scene?  Who was responsible for the searching for the right location and the hour-long wait to have the dispatcher recontact the caller?

Just wondering, and then I will have enough info to answer your question.


----------



## CheifBud (Aug 11, 2011)

Abandonment is leaving a patient in the hands of someone with lesser capability than you yourself posses.  A paramedic cannot run off and leave an EMT-I or B with a patient.  That is abandonment in its truest form however an EMT-B can with simple approval of the Paramedic  that will be taking over, leave the patient with them.


----------



## usalsfyre (Aug 11, 2011)

You need to gut check yourself right now. This is not a career-ender in and of itself, but you need to ask yourself "what happens next time?" "What happens when I'm the only advanced provider available?" Your answers to these questions determine where you go from here. If you can't learn to compartmentalize, your done. If this was an isolated case and you can get over it, it proves your human and underestimated the effect calls can have on you.

As far as a serious call "bringing you back", it's no sign of being a bad person. I'll be honest, I enjoy the crap out of a procedure-heavy, mentally challenging, seriously ill or injured call...until it's over. Then the enjoyment generally fades to the haunting feeling that goes along with realizing the patient/family has just had a massively life altering event. That "fade" didn't start till 6 or 8 years (as a full-time provider who became aware of the after effects)in though.

Vomitting. As someone who has had intractable vommiting in the back of an EMS aircraft there's sometimes no "go on with it" it can put you 100% out of commission.


----------



## HotelCo (Aug 11, 2011)

Linuss said:


> And we come back to the "uncontrollable" part of "uncontrollable vomiting" that you and sasha like to ignore



I've yet to find myself "uncontrollably vomiting" due to something I've seen, smelled, heard, or tasted. If you're prone to it, perhaps you should rethink your career choice. 






Linuss said:


> If there are more providers taking care of the patient, some of which higher than your level, it's not abandonment, is it?



In this instance there were other providers on scene. What if it happens again when she's the only one, or she's needed to help with patient care? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tickle me doe face (Aug 11, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> I've yet to find myself "uncontrollably vomiting" due to something I've seen, smelled, heard, or tasted. If you're prone to it, perhaps you should rethink your career choice.



Is uncontrollable vomiting by an EMT common? this worries me


----------



## JPINFV (Aug 11, 2011)

CheifBud said:


> Abandonment is leaving a patient in the hands of someone with lesser capability than you yourself posses.  A paramedic cannot run off and leave an EMT-I or B with a patient.  That is abandonment in its truest form however an EMT-B can with simple approval of the Paramedic  that will be taking over, leave the patient with them.




...err, no. Plenty of jurisdictions allow paramedics, after an assessment, to turn care over to a paramedic. Similarly, if that was the case than a patient would never be able to be discharged from the hospital.


----------



## truetiger (Aug 11, 2011)

Not saying you're a bad emt, but fleeing the scene was a very poor choice. Fleeing the scene makes a bold statement that when times get tough, you'll bail. Personally, I don't want to be partners with someone who might leave me hanging if things don't go well.


----------



## Sasha (Aug 11, 2011)

tickle me doe face said:


> Is uncontrollable vomiting by an EMT common? this worries me



No linuss is just grasping at straws to try and prove his weak argument.


----------



## Shishkabob (Aug 11, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> I've yet to find myself "uncontrollably vomiting" due to something I've seen, smelled, heard, or tasted. If you're prone to it, perhaps you should rethink your career choice.



I've yet to either, however, an uncontrollable response is an uncontrollable response, is it not?  





Sasha said:


> No linuss is just grasping at straws to try and prove his weak argument.




No grasping, especially since there are other people here who are apparently agreeing with me.  


I'm just trying to figure out how one is justified, but the other is not, when there was no detriment to the patient, no law broken, no abandonment, like you (wrongly) claimed.


----------



## HotelCo (Aug 11, 2011)

Linuss said:


> I'm just trying to figure out how one is justified, but the other is not, when there was no detriment to the patient, no law broken, no abandonment, like you (wrongly) claimed.



Running away is a conscious act. 

No detriment this time. Like I said before: what happens next time?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## foxfire (Aug 11, 2011)

I don't think that the op abandoned the pt. Grant it she did not excuse herself correctly.  But there were medics attending the pt, according to her. 
  I am reluctant to throw the baby out with the bath water and send her to the chopping block. Sounds like this was the first time reaction. If she was my partner I would advise her to seek some counseling and give her a second chance.  
I say learn how to stay focused even though you feel like falling apart inside. If it becomes a habit then I would suggest a change of career. 
Just my two cent worth.


----------



## Shishkabob (Aug 11, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> Running away is a conscious act.



Is it always?  You sure the autonomic responses don't just "happen" when presented with something traumatic?  



> No detriment this time. Like I said before: what happens next time?



And what happens if you screw up sometime in the future.  Should we just tell you to leave EMS now because of what might or might not happen in the future?


Many agencies will retain and re-educate providers after a sentinel event, so long as it doesn't cross over in to negligence, do they not?


----------



## Sasha (Aug 11, 2011)

She didnt abandon the pt this time, what about next time?

How do you think the family felt seeing someone run crying out of the ambulance? 

If someone is vomiting uncontrollably non stop then yeah ems isnt for them. If they vomit once, then theyre fine. You are grasping the two are not similar, you dont uncontrollably run away, you chose to run.

Its my opinion that the OP should not be in EMS. I would not be partners with this person and would likely not allow them on my scene.


----------



## Shishkabob (Aug 11, 2011)

Sasha said:


> She didnt abandon the pt this time, what about next time?



You didn't abandon any patients last shift either.... but what about next time?  Go ahead and turn in your cert now so we can avoid any potential abandonment.  



> How do you think the family felt seeing someone run crying out of the ambulance?



Not good.

How do you think families of 9/11 victims felt watching criyng cops, firefighters and paramedics on national TV?  They should have been in the rubble saving lives, not crying!





> If someone is vomiting uncontrollably non stop then yeah ems isnt for them. If they vomit once, then theyre fine. You are grasping the two are not similar, you dont uncontrollably run away, you chose to run.



I don't think you get the whole "uncontrollable" thing.

Or the "autonomic nervous system response" thing either.





Do I think what happened is good?  No.  Should it have happened?  No.  Do I fault someone for something they cannot control? Nope.


----------



## HotelCo (Aug 11, 2011)

Linuss said:


> Is it always?  You sure the autonomic responses don't just "happen" when presented with something traumatic?



Let's go along with the idea that it wasn't a conscious act for a moment then.  Do you really want that person to come to your emergency? 

How can you retrain someone to prevent them from doing something that just "happens"? 

Show them photos of graphic scenes to desensitize them? 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## saskvolunteer (Aug 11, 2011)

Sasha said:


> She didnt abandon the pt this time, what about next time?
> 
> How do you think the family felt seeing someone run crying out of the ambulance?
> 
> ...



Don't you run IFT?


---
- Sent from my pencil and paper.


----------



## Sasha (Aug 11, 2011)

Linuss said:


> You didn't abandon any patients last shift either.... but what about next time?  Go ahead and turn in your cert now so we can avoid any potential abandonment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I do get it. 

Ive never ran away from a scene. When i do, ill turn in my license. 

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


----------



## Sasha (Aug 11, 2011)

saskvolunteer said:


> Don't you run IFT?
> 
> 
> ---
> - Sent from my pencil and paper.



Ive done a stent in 911.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


----------



## Sasha (Aug 11, 2011)

Correction ive ran once, but we were being attacked by a dog, it was a non emergency er call and we had not made patient contact.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


----------



## Shishkabob (Aug 11, 2011)

Sasha said:


> I do get it.
> 
> Ive never ran away from a scene. When i do, ill turn in my license.




Someone screws up one time, with no detriment to patient outcome, by doing something they arguably did or did not have control over.  Is that reason to force someone out of a career?


If so, everyone in medicine would be out of a job right now, for EVERYONE has made a mistake at some point, often times at no detriment to the patient, but sometimes to a detriment.  


However, the vast majority of mistakes involving patients are resolved by re-education, not de-certification.


----------



## Sasha (Aug 11, 2011)

Linuss said:


> Someone screws up one time, with no detriment to patient outcome, by doing something they arguably did or did not have control over.  Is that reason to force someone out of a career?
> 
> 
> If so, everyone in medicine would be out of a job right now, for EVERYONE has made a mistake at some point, often times at no detriment to the patient, but sometimes to a detriment.
> ...



Some mistakes are ones that only get to be made once.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


----------



## Shishkabob (Aug 11, 2011)

Yes, if it cost someone their life.



Never if there is no detriment to the patient.


----------



## abckidsmom (Aug 11, 2011)

tickle me doe face said:


> Is uncontrollable vomiting by an EMT common? this worries me



Vomiting in an ambulance just once was always the queue for my EMS career to be put on hold when I was pregnant.  I sometimes get a little motion sick, but have only ever puked with a patient when I was pregnant.  Consistent over 5 pregnancies, usually around 10-12 weeks.

Not common at all, the mild motion sickness can put a weak stomach right over the top.


----------



## tickle me doe face (Aug 11, 2011)

Linuss said:


> Someone screws up one time, with no detriment to patient outcome, by doing something they arguably did or did not have control over.  Is that reason to force someone out of a career?
> 
> 
> If so, everyone in medicine would be out of a job right now, for EVERYONE has made a mistake at some point, often times at no detriment to the patient, but sometimes to a detriment.
> ...



you mean she didn't have controll over her choosing to toddle off and potentialy leave the patient all by his one-some sevy?


----------



## fast65 (Aug 11, 2011)

tickle me doe face said:


> you mean she didn't have controll over her choosing to toddle off and potentialy leave the patient all by his one-some sevy?



Sounds to me like there was a crew of other providers there. It's totally fine to have your own opinion on the matter, but try not to add your own facts in as well.

We learn from our mistakes, some mistakes are worse than others, but we ALL make them. Sure this was a pretty big mistake, but I don't personally believe that it's one that should be the defining moment as to whether or not she should stay in EMS. If it happens again, then she can start considering if this is really the career for her.


----------



## tickle me doe face (Aug 11, 2011)

fast65 said:


> Sounds to me like there was a crew of other providers there. It's totally fine to have your own opinion on the matter, but try not to add your own facts in as well.
> 
> We learn from our mistakes, some mistakes are worse than others, but we ALL make them. Sure this was a pretty big mistake, but I don't personally believe that it's one that should be the defining moment as to whether or not she should stay in EMS. If it happens again, then she can start considering if this is really the career for her.



I said potentially. Running away, can cause the patient to be abandoned. lucky for her there were others there this time


----------



## fast65 (Aug 11, 2011)

tickle me doe face said:


> I said potentially. Running away, can cause the patient to be abandoned. lucky for her there were others there this time



How can the pt. be abandoned if there were other more advanced providers there with the pt? There's no saying that she would have done it if she was the one in charge, and there's nothing saying wouldn't have. All we can do is speculate at this time.


----------



## tickle me doe face (Aug 11, 2011)

fast65 said:


> How can the pt. be abandoned if there were other more advanced providers there with the pt? There's no saying that she would have done it if she was the one in charge, and there's nothing saying wouldn't have. All we can do is speculate at this time.



I dont know. just seems like a wee bit of a party foul


----------



## truetiger (Aug 11, 2011)

The general public puts their trust in us, what are they supposed to think when they see an emt running away?


----------



## CheifBud (Aug 11, 2011)

fast65 said:


> How can the pt. be abandoned if there were other more advanced providers there with the pt? There's no saying that she would have done it if she was the one in charge, and there's nothing saying wouldn't have. All we can do is speculate at this time.



I don't think she was "lucky" I think she was remotely competent and able to look around for two maybe three seconds and see that there are more providers than care can be provided.

We understand that in different situations with different people and pretty much everything being different it could be abandonment but we can't assume she will in one of these cases, that's far from fair.

Yes 65 that sounds pretty much correct to me.


----------



## fast65 (Aug 11, 2011)

tickle me doe face said:


> I dont know. just seems like a wee bit of a party foul



I guess you could put it that way...


----------



## tickle me doe face (Aug 11, 2011)

fast65 said:


> I guess you could put it that way...



lol. fair enough


----------



## dixie_flatline (Aug 11, 2011)

Gotta say I'm with... Linuss on this one, for the most part.  Obviously this is Strike One - and should serve as a warning/wake-up call for the OP, but it doesn't sound to me like a career ender.  Certainly if I'm aware of someone like this at my station, I'd be extra-vigilant about working with them and the potential for me to get jammed up - but I'm kind of a :censored: and I'm like that with almost everyone.  She's doing the right thing though in trying to get some perspective.

We had a call a number of years ago where 2 kids had plowed their car head-on into another car.  Not only did that call have a dead baby in the second car, the 2 kids in the first car were both members of our fire dept.  Everyone knew them, and the kid in the passenger seat - well, his dad was the officer on the engine.  The driver died in the car before he could be extricated, and the other one turned out to have a dissecting aorta (which was miraculously caught at Shock Trauma and repaired).  I don't know that anyone would have faulted someone for being overcome at that scene (even though I don't know of anyone that was).

We can speculate all day about "well, if she fled there, she could flee here" - but none of us can know that.  If the situation is different, and she's in charge and the patient is in her hands, maybe she steels herself and doesn't let it get to her.  In my book, she hasn't done anything severe enough at this point to unequivocally say "BAD EMT".  Hell, I can't say with 100% certainty that I'll never get overcome at a scene.

PS - If something on a call has made you throw up, you better have gotten yourself far enough away that I don't have to deal with it doing my job.  Dealing with a patient's puke is a pain, but it's part of the job - I'm not dealing with yours too.  I never want to see someone just turn their head from a pt and let rip.  You need to get yourself out of the way, and you better not come back until your situation is under control.


----------



## fast65 (Aug 11, 2011)

truetiger said:


> The general public puts their trust in us, what are they supposed to think when they see an emt running away?



To run in the same direction...


----------



## CheifBud (Aug 11, 2011)

fast65 said:


> To run in the same direction...



*bowing down*


----------



## Sasha (Aug 12, 2011)

fast65 said:


> How can the pt. be abandoned if there were other more advanced providers there with the pt? There's no saying that she would have done it if she was the one in charge, and there's nothing saying wouldn't have. All we can do is speculate at this time.



Well Linuss claims it was uncontrollable, so if she was sole provider, in Linuss' theory, she would have run too. So where does that leave the patient and family?


----------



## firetender (Aug 12, 2011)

*Off with her head!*



Sasha said:


> ...but what about the next call that bothers her? Are you going to run...
> ...Maybe im a hard nose...
> but if i was on that scene and you ran, you would no longer be welcome on my scene.


 
Sasha, you crack me up! It's not what you say or even how you say it, it's your, um, positional rigidity, yeah, that's it, something about not being swayed which sometimes translates into not quite listening.

First off, the OP has been at this game for four years.
Second, she got blind-sided by a situation that hit home
Third, she DID have options and the patient WAS covered

It's presumptuous on your part to write her off as a medic, and this is not the first time I've seen you do this. I suppose it's the condemnation that bugs me, but honestly, there's something else that causes me alarm.

You seem absolutely convinced that you are impervious.

My experience is that only medics that haven't discovered their "Hot Button" == the one thing, custom-designed, that comes out of nowhere and knocks  them for an emotional loop == are the ones most judgmental and least forgiving of those that encounter theirs and then have the guts to admit it rocked their world. They are the ones who brandish the "unpopular" opinion which might be okay if it didn't include judgement.

When you do find your Hot Button, and you will, I hope you will find as much understanding and acceptance here as the OP has. And if you're smart like her, you'll ignore the inevitable Hard Nose and learn from the experience, becoming a better medic in the process.

If you allow her that option, maybe it'll make it easier for us all to allow you the same when you hit your personal wall.

...and if you did run from a call as the OP did, and then quit the profession, as you swore you would, I'd lose a lot of the respect I have for you.


----------



## fortsmithman (Aug 12, 2011)

I do not think she is a bad EMT.  To those who think she is, you one day may freeze up and or run from the scene.  We are all human, that hasn't happened to me yet.  It may one day.  I've been a member of my town service for 3 and a half years.


----------



## fast65 (Aug 12, 2011)

Sasha said:


> Well Linuss claims it was uncontrollable, so if she was sole provider, in Linuss' theory, she would have run too. So where does that leave the patient and family?



I've already said it once...running in the same direction.

But in all seriousness, that's just speculation (word of the night) right now. We'll never know what she would have done had she been the sole provider, all we know is what she did do. Now, perhaps this was a one time event that will provide her with some insight as to what types of calls might bother her, and if that's it, then thankfully there were other providers there that had the pt. under control. But, if that's not the case, then yes, EMS might not be the career for her, but would I feel comfortable coming to that conclusion with the information that we presently have? Absolutely not.


----------



## bstone (Aug 12, 2011)

It was a bad call that hit home. If this didn't happen to you then I'd worry you weren't human and I'd call NASA to figure you out! Some people freak out with the baby calls, others freak out with the old people calls, and some other folks freak out with the decapitation calls. It's totally OK to have a call that hits home and freak out a little bit. I am POSITIVE that you would have been able to maintain if you were the only ALS provider on scene. Since you weren't you let your guard down which is 100% ok. You did not compromise patient care. More importantly, you came here seeking peer review and feedback. This might have been a bad idea since not everyone on this site is best suited to give good advice, but it does demonstrate great maturity and responsibility.

You're a great EMT and a great human being. Keep up the good work.


----------



## Sasha (Aug 12, 2011)

firetender said:


> Sasha, you crack me up! It's not what you say or even how you say it, it's your, um, positional rigidity, yeah, that's it, something about not being swayed which sometimes translates into not quite listening.
> 
> First off, the OP has been at this game for four years.
> Second, she got blind-sided by a situation that hit home
> ...



Oh firetender, you shouldn't assume.. you know the saying.

I have found calls that have thrown me for the emotional loop, I have never RUN crying from the scene. I don't know anyone else who has jumped out of an ambulance and run away.

Here are just a few that have made hit some button for me:

Very first code, while younger than my mom by a few years looked just like her with lighter hair with a similar medical history. I walked in the room, she was up and talking, left to grab something, and came back to CPR in progress.

Young lady dying of cervical cancer. I wont go into why this one hit home, it's far too complicated.

Any patient dying of liver failure. My mom's got "The Hep" and diabetes and this is likely how she will die. It's terrible and painful and every time I take them I feel like crying.

An old lady who was neglected by the nursing home and sat in bed with an obviously deformed hip fracture for days in pain. She looked EXACTLY like my Grandma, and I hate to think of her in pain. She did absolutely nothing but scream from the minute we got there to the minute we left. (anyone with white puffy hair looks like my grandma) I wanted to punch a nurse after that. 

A homeless man who was set on fire while he was sleeping in the park. He was the sweetest little guy ever, truly heart breaking.

Those calls all hit some nerve, but I never thought of fleeing. There of course are calls I whine "I don't wanna do this call!" but I have a job and an obligation, and I do it well. Fleeing is an inappropriate response.

Emotion is okay. Running away from your call and your patient is not. That is NOT a normal response to a "bad call".

Again, she didn't excuse herself and calmly walk from the scene, she RAN from it. RAN. THAT is what I can not get over and there is absolutely no excuse to run from the scene if you are not in immediate danger.

EMS is not for everyone, there is no shame in not being able to handle it.

And yes, firetender.. I'm listening but I have not been presented with a sufficient argument to sway my stance.


----------



## Sasha (Aug 12, 2011)

> I am POSITIVE that you would have been able to maintain if you were the only ALS provider on scene



How are you positive of that?


----------



## BandageBrigade (Aug 12, 2011)

I'm sorry. Regardless of what you would have or would not have done had you been the sole provider, if you walked or ran out of the ambulance/call as first responder or not you would not be working on a truck with me again. I think it would help for you to talk to someone about this. Sometimes people/providers have trouble with incidents. You were the first on scene, so until someone else arrived and you passed off command, you are in charge of this incident. 
     Now all other aspects of this incident aside (as I dont want to play monday morning quarterback). The fact that you had this strong of an emotional response, just because you thought they were 7 years younger than they were (hopefully they looked it) is troublesome. I think you need to look hard into yourself at how you are going to deal with this age group should you continue with this career. If you have this kind of reaction whenever there is a serious call for someone who might be your brothers age, then you need to hang it up. For yours, your patients and your partners sake.


----------



## hoss42141 (Aug 12, 2011)

If I remember correctly, Sasha did say she ran once, but it was before than made patient contact. What if you had already made it to the patient and then the dog came after you. Then what would you have done. You probably would still have ran, all because if it chased you away then, it would have been worse when you got to his owner. Does that make you a bad EMT/MEDIC. No, it makes you a smart one because you ran for safety. Would you still have quit the job you love like you said you would. No. Why because you would rule it as a safety issue just to justify what you did.


----------



## Sasha (Aug 12, 2011)

hoss42141 said:


> If I remember correctly, Sasha did say she ran once, but it was before than made patient contact. What if you had already made it to the patient and then the dog came after you. Then what would you have done. You probably would still have ran, all because if it chased you away then, it would have been worse when you got to his owner. Does that make you a bad EMT/MEDIC. No, it makes you a smart one because you ran for safety. Would you still have quit the job you love like you said you would. No. Why because you would rule it as a safety issue just to justify what you did.



There is a difference between running away from a call because you can't hack it and running because you're in danger.

Where was the OPs safety issue? Was the dead kid gonna pop up and bust a cap in her?


----------



## hoss42141 (Aug 12, 2011)

LOL. Running is running. Whether you run for safety because your scared of a dog, or you ran because a scene hit to close to home. The way you talk you are impervious to this kind of thing. Trust me your not. I was in the military and guess what, soldiers did the same thing then. Did they get kicked out of the military. No. They was told to check themselves and get a grip, or they would end up hurting someone else in their unit. It's not the fact that you can't hack it in the job, it's the fact that sometimes in life you are going to hit a road block, and it will hit hard and you will do the same thing. I would love to hear your excuse for.the one mistake that you make that makes you run. Then I would love to see you quit because you are Superwoman and would never do that. Never say never because my dad said he would never be a minister and guess what. He has been one for 19 years now. I can say I would never run from a scene, but there might be that one thing that pushes me over the edge. Will I quit. No, but I will do everything in my power for it not time happen again.


----------



## BandageBrigade (Aug 12, 2011)

Running is not running. Running due to safety of you or your crew is acceptable. Running because the patient might be the same age as a family member and this upsets you is not acceptable.  You dont get to choose the age of your patients, and if you are responding to the page, esp in a volunteer setting, you are accepting responsiblity for the incident/patient. If you choose to respond and do this profession, esp if you choose to respond pov before an actual ambulance / rescue unit, you'd better have a grip and be able to get what needs done done. It shouldnt matter that other responders were on scene when you run. That does not make it acceptable. How can they rely on you then?


----------



## bstone (Aug 12, 2011)

Sasha said:


> How are you positive of that?



Because this person presents themself as reasonable, mature and introspective. That commands respect.


----------



## bstone (Aug 12, 2011)

BandageBrigade said:


> Running is not running. Running due to safety of you or your crew is acceptable. Running because the patient might be the same age as a family member and this upsets you is not acceptable.  You dont get to choose the age of your patients, and if you are responding to the page, esp in a volunteer setting, you are accepting responsiblity for the incident/patient. If you choose to respond and do this profession, esp if you choose to respond pov before an actual ambulance / rescue unit, you'd better have a grip and be able to get what needs done done. It shouldnt matter that other responders were on scene when you run. That does not make it acceptable. How can they rely on you then?



Yeah, it's never OK to have a call freak you out. Seriously?


----------



## Sasha (Aug 12, 2011)

hoss42141 said:


> LOL. Running is running. Whether you run for safety because your scared of a dog, or you ran because a scene hit to close to home. The way you talk you are impervious to this kind of thing. Trust me your not. I was in the military and guess what, soldiers did the same thing then. Did they get kicked out of the military. No. They was told to check themselves and get a grip, or they would end up hurting someone else in their unit. It's not the fact that you can't hack it in the job, it's the fact that sometimes in life you are going to hit a road block, and it will hit hard and you will do the same thing. I would love to hear your excuse for.the one mistake that you make that makes you run. Then I would love to see you quit because you are Superwoman and would never do that. Never say never because my dad said he would never be a minister and guess what. He has been one for 19 years now. I can say I would never run from a scene, but there might be that one thing that pushes me over the edge. Will I quit. No, but I will do everything in my power for it not time happen again.



Running in the military from a realistic threat is NOT the same as running cause you cant handle a code. the patient was not presenting a threat the patient was dead.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


----------



## bstone (Aug 12, 2011)

Sasha, berating people usually doesn't inspire them. You attract more bees with honey. Try it out.


----------



## hoss42141 (Aug 12, 2011)

bstone said:


> Sasha, berating people usually doesn't inspire them. You attract more bees with honey. Try it out.



I agree, but do you honestly think she would do that. We must remember that she is the queen verandas she does no wrong. This is the way the world is. She is right everyone else is wrong. The only help she will offer is to help pack your stuff to your vehicle because you are taking to long to leave.


----------



## hoss42141 (Aug 12, 2011)

That is supposed to be queen bee. Dang auto correct.


----------



## mcdonl (Aug 12, 2011)

I read that she dealt with what she needed to do, and when she was relived by the higher licensed duty crew she them had a big emotional release that sometimes happens. In no case did she not PERFORM HER DUTIES during all of this.

I wish I were a cold, insensitive bada$$ like all of you but like the OP, I have feelings and compasion and the day I lose those is the day I need to stop doing patient care.


----------



## hoss42141 (Aug 12, 2011)

I am in no way a big bada$$. I have feelings as well. Some (we won't mention names) believe they are impervious to this type of thing. They are the masters of the EMS world. They do no wrong and everyone else does no right. I would not give up my career that I love for one mistake that, even tho it was already stated that on the next major run she shook her head and did what had to be done. She rebounded from this, but those few still believe that she is wrong and needs to leave.


----------



## Lady_EMT (Aug 12, 2011)

*Wow, this really took off..*

First off, I would like to, once again, thank everyone for their responses. I'm happy to see that even though I've received negative responses (which I fully expected), I've also received some positive feedback and support.

Second, I'd like to add a few more details that I think have become quite neccessary after some of the comments made against me. Once the patient was in the back of the ambulance, I assisted with suction, ventilations, and protecting the airway. Once that task was transferred over to the crew that came with the ambulance, and the medic was in back with everything loaded, that was when I left. I didn't just go sprinting off without first doing what I needed to do. So, in the case that I was the highest level of certification, I would have been able to keep my composure. It was only when I was finished doing what I needed to do that I lost it. Also, I use the term "run" loosely. If I had known that the word "run" would have twisted my story around so much, I would have been more cautious in choosing a verb. If I may alter the term to "briskly walk." My car was parked behind one of the buildings out of sight to bystanders, and when I "briskly walked" from the ambulance to my car, it wasn't as if I sat on top of my vehicle screaming to the sky. I sat in my car, which was secluded and out of sight, before I let myself cry over it.

For those of you who so badly think I'm an awful person, I truly hope that when you get the call that bothers you, you have a good support system, not people telling you to pack your *stuff* and get out. I appreciate the responses, but some of you don't truly understand the extent. I've had "bad" calls before. Abuse cases, truly sick children, awful car accidents. So I've seen bad stuff. It's not like I have a weak stomach. It's a feeling I could never describe, and wouldn't wish on anyone else.


----------



## BandageBrigade (Aug 12, 2011)

Bstone- I never stated that it is not ok for an incident to freak you out. Running away when that happens is a completely different story. The OP's most recent update completely changes things, as now it sounds like the amublance was leaving, tasks were performed and she was no longer needed.

To the OP - In no way was I trying to make you feel ashamed or bad, and your most recent update does put it/you in a better light. I had picture you running out while people in the middle of assisting in careing for the patient, and I was merely trying to convey that that would not be acceptable.


----------



## Lady_EMT (Aug 12, 2011)

BandageBrigade said:


> To the OP - In no way was I trying to make you feel ashamed or bad, and your most recent update does put it/you in a better light. I had picture you running out while people in the middle of assisting in careing for the patient, and I was merely trying to convey that that would not be acceptable.



Not a problem. My bad for not putting those details in the light in the first place.


----------



## Sasha (Aug 12, 2011)

Lady_EMT said:


> Not a problem. My bad for not putting those details in the light in the first place.



Your OP sounds like you bailed in the middle of care. My apologies, that DOES change it up quite a bit.

Sent from LuLu using Tapatalk


----------



## Sasha (Aug 12, 2011)

bstone said:


> Sasha, berating people usually doesn't inspire them. You attract more bees with honey. Try it out.



I'm not berating anyone, I'm discussing the subject at hand. My opinion is someone that runs from the truck in the middle of care should not be in EMS. To me that is a mistake you only get to make ONCE because the potential ramifications of it is not pretty.

Because with further information from the OP, that is not what appears to have happened and I've apologized, then what I've said has no affect on her, does it?

When I encourage someone, it's usually done in private.


----------



## Sasha (Aug 12, 2011)

hoss42141 said:


> I am in no way a big bada$$. I have feelings as well. Some (we won't mention names) believe they are impervious to this type of thing. They are the masters of the EMS world. They do no wrong and everyone else does no right. I would not give up my career that I love for one mistake that, even tho it was already stated that on the next major run she shook her head and did what had to be done. She rebounded from this, but those few still believe that she is wrong and needs to leave.



I'm not a badass either. I have stated several times on this thread that there ARE calls that get to me, but that the proper response was not to run. There are times where I stepped out of the room for a moment to regain my composure and soldier through. 

I still maintain someone that bolts from a truck under stress is not someone who needs to be working in EMS, as EMS is stress. Again, that is not the OPs situation but there was no way to know that without the further information provided.


----------



## hoss42141 (Aug 12, 2011)

OK. I know that you have apologized already. My post was made before the OP made her statement. I still stand by my statement about never doing wrong. Like you have said, that is my right.


----------



## Sasha (Aug 12, 2011)

Yup, that's your right, but what you maintain is wrong. I'm the first to admit I mess up.


----------



## JeffDHMC (Aug 12, 2011)

Shame I caught this so late, now I have to stow my lighter and acetylene. 

I get your ability to relate to the call and how it affected you, I do. The worst call of my life (changed it forever) was the same thing. 4yof auto/ped murder (by murder I mean that she was intentionally run over by her father) that was wearing the same sun dress as my 4 yo daughter was that day. The whole thing was a little hard to handle and I projected Wendy's (the dead girl) injuries onto my daughter until I just about went insane. No choice of mine, it just happened. I've been in EMS for some time. Sure, I did the occasional IFT in the early 90's, but I've been solid 911 for a long time. S**t can and will bother you sometimes, that's just how it is.

Your OP and your revision do not change what I originally was going to post (aside from the stuff that would buy me an infraction). I suppose that after 4 years in the game if you were the one in charge you would have hung out and done your job.

I say doom on anyone that has a beef. 

Jeff


----------



## HotelCo (Aug 12, 2011)

JeffDHMC said:


> I say doom on anyone that has a beef.
> 
> Jeff



"Doom" on you too, then? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sasha (Aug 12, 2011)

Doom to all!


----------



## HotelCo (Aug 12, 2011)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## angrynuni (Aug 12, 2011)

BEorP said:


> My opinion:
> 
> Are you a bad EMT for having those feelings? No.
> 
> ...



This


----------



## JeffDHMC (Aug 12, 2011)

HotelCo said:


> "Doom" on you too, then?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Crap, I guess you got me on a technicality. Touché 

Jeff


----------



## dixie_flatline (Aug 13, 2011)

Sasha said:


> Doom to all!


----------



## firetender (Aug 13, 2011)

*Great Theatre!*

Just have to say this is one helluva thread! It's got everything you could want in varied positions and approaches and judgments and praise and defense, retreat, challenge...YOW! the whole nine yards.

I especially appreciate the heart that was shared and, let's face it, risks taken to put out one's position and then take the inevitable flack.

We took a ride together and I like to think that's what makes us unique in EMS. This thread kind of shows how the coming together of strong voices means everyone learns. 

It's a good example of how this site helps build more aware medics. Bravo!


----------



## colorado207 (Aug 13, 2011)

I think that the main point here should be that the patient was (probably) obviously dead and there were many other providers around. 
*I think that these^^ facts allowed her to have the emotional reaction at that time, rather than delaying it as she might have normally done. She is a 4 year veteran. She knows if she is abandoning someone and she knew she wasn't abandoning this patient. * She just went to 'post call' emotionally too soon, because she knows there is nothing to be done by her.
The only bad thing about this is the potential impact to family, which is probably overstated.
So bottom line, abandonment should not be an issue here. Not a bad emt. Just make sure that you try to understand what happened and accept it, in order that it won't affect your confidence in the future.
Nobody is impervious.


----------

