# Petition to the MA OEMS to accept NREMT



## bstone (Jul 7, 2011)

Hey folks. I've started a group on facebook to ask the Mass OEMS to begin accepting the NREMT for purposes of a state license. I know it's an uphill battle and probably futile, but I figure I'd try and why not.

I hope you all will join, even if you don't live in MA.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/MA-OEMS-please-accept-the-NREMT/244821498862415?sk=info


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## medicdan (Jul 7, 2011)

The reasons MA OEMS does not accept the NR are not simple or easily remedied, although the understanding is that it boils down to $$... they can charge $150, so they do. Although I am fully supportive of grassroots movements, I am skeptical this will have much impact.

Good Luck!


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## bstone (Jul 7, 2011)

Hey Dan. Thanks for joining. I seriously doubt it will change anything with the OEMS, but once it gets 500 people in the group I'll sent it over to the OEMS and see what (if anything) it does.


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## medicdan (Jul 7, 2011)

Absolutely. It might be worth a call to Paul Coffey or Russ Johansen-- to see their "official" take on the process.


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## nemedic (Jul 7, 2011)

I joined. Sending it around to some people. 


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## HotelCo (Jul 7, 2011)

What's wrong with your current licensing exams?


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## bstone (Jul 7, 2011)

The current licensing exam is ridiculous. It's super expensive and reinvents the wheel. The MA certification is also not portable (unlike the NREMT).


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## nwhitney (Jul 7, 2011)

bstone said:


> The current licensing exam is ridiculous. It's super expensive and reinvents the wheel. The MA certification is also not portable (unlike the NREMT).



I've heard rumors that Oregon is getting out of the certification business and going with just the NREMT, I hope they don't. I don't like the idea of portable certs./licenses.

Besides money and a ridiculous exam could you give specifics?  I'm just curious as to why.  Have you considered trying to change the way MA does it's licensing as opposed to ditching it all together?  Anyways good luck!


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## Lifeguards For Life (Jul 7, 2011)

Have any of these Facebook petitions ever been successful? I remember people making these in high school and always thought they were a rather immature way of addressing an issue?


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## bstone (Jul 7, 2011)

An immature way of dealing with the issue? Huh?

Yes, many, many facebook groups have succeeded in effecting change.


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## silver (Jul 7, 2011)

Considering like 4 people work (its small, but I dont know the real number) for MA OEMS, I'll be dead before anything happens to change the cert process.


Do you want NREMT testing or NREMT reciprocity?


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## bstone (Jul 7, 2011)

Let's start with NREMT reciprocity. I think that's the most useful and valuable to people who move to MA from elsewhere.


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## feldy (Jul 7, 2011)

I joined your petition. i fully support the move to NREMT in MA.


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## Too Old To Work (Jul 7, 2011)

bstone said:


> The current licensing exam is ridiculous. It's super expensive and reinvents the wheel. The MA certification is also not portable (unlike the NREMT).



But that's what they do. "Massachusetts OEMS, we didn't invent the wheel, but we've perfected the art of reinventing it". They should put that on their stationary and web site. 




nwhitney said:


> I've heard rumors that Oregon is getting out of the certification business and going with just the NREMT, I hope they don't. I don't like the idea of portable certs./licenses.
> 
> Besides money and a ridiculous exam could you give specifics?  I'm just curious as to why.  Have you considered trying to change the way MA does it's licensing as opposed to ditching it all together?  Anyways good luck!



It's pretty funny that nurses can move from state to state and get a new license by filling out a form and paying a fee. Doctors can do the same thing. Medics and EMTs? Nope, we have to jump through a million hoops to move across state lines. 

We are our own worst enemy. No wonder no one sees us as professionals.


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## bstone (Jul 7, 2011)

Too Old To Work said:


> But that's what they do. "Massachusetts OEMS, we didn't invent the wheel, but we've perfected the art of reinventing it". They should put that on their stationary and web site.


LOL. You put that in a very good way. Even if you don't live in MA will you please join the group? Numbers are everything in this.




> It's pretty funny that nurses can move from state to state and get a new license by filling out a form and paying a fee. Doctors can do the same thing. Medics and EMTs? Nope, we have to jump through a million hoops to move across state lines.
> 
> We are our own worst enemy. No wonder no one sees us as professionals.



I agree- it makes zero sense. Nurses, doctors and other allied health practitioners can move from state to state and just fill out a form. The NREMT is supposed to take care of this, but it will be up to the populace to demand this.


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## Too Old To Work (Jul 7, 2011)

bstone said:


> LOL. You put that in a very good way. Even if you don't live in MA will you please join the group? Numbers are everything in this.
> 
> I agree- it makes zero sense. Nurses, doctors and other allied health practitioners can move from state to state and just fill out a form. The NREMT is supposed to take care of this, but it will be up to the populace to demand this.



I've maintained my NREMT certification for 21 years, even though MA no longer accepts it. It's fairly easy to meet the NREMT requirements, although they are a bit arcane in the way they are structured. With my NREMT certification I can move to several states, but not all. For example, NH might not accept my NREMT card if I didn't take my last refresher in NH. 

Texas, OTOH, will accept NREMT and because I have a college degree will give me a license, not just a certification. I don't know that there is any advantage to one over the other. 

As to joining the group, no thanks. My advice would be to send a letter to Abdullah Rehayem requesting that he form a committee to study the issue. He's a pretty reasonable guy, which isn't a guarantee that he'll agree. Even if MA decides to accept the NREMT, there is no reason to believe that they will not charge $150.00 for recertification. That fee was imposed by the faux Republican Mitt Romney as a way to make OEMS self sufficient. It was part of a general move make more regulatory agencies self funding by imposing fees, never say "taxes" on the people being regulated. Every licensed trade in the state saw a doubling or tripling of fees. Before Romney, the fee was $75.00 per two years. Before that, it was $20.00 per two years. 

Anyway, good luck.


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## bstone (Jul 7, 2011)

I'll send him a letter asking him to study the issue one there are 500 people in the group. Strength in numbers.


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## nwhitney (Jul 7, 2011)

Too Old To Work said:


> It's pretty funny that nurses can move from state to state and get a new license by filling out a form and paying a fee. Doctors can do the same thing. Medics and EMTs? Nope, we have to jump through a million hoops to move across state lines.
> 
> We are our own worst enemy. No wonder no one sees us as professionals.



That makes sense but to me this is a bigger issue than one state not accepting NREMT.  Things are different state to state.  For example if I took my NREMT cert. from Oregon to Alaska they shouldn't give me the go ahead to start working as an EMT based on the NREMT.  EMT's in Alaska deal with issues that I may never see here in Oregon.  So many variables when you get out of a controlled environment such as a hospital.  I don't know but I would imagine the training for nurses and doctors is pretty much the same across the board hence they have any easier time moving from state to state.  I'm sure someone will correct me real quick if that assumption isn't accurate.


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## nwhitney (Jul 7, 2011)

bstone said:


> I'll send him a letter asking him to study the issue one there are 500 people in the group. Strength in numbers.



Regardless of my opinion I'm impressed that you're willing to take this on.  Too often people seem to just complain and not try to change the system for the better or at least get people talking.  Not just EMS but all areas of life.


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## bstone (Jul 7, 2011)

> Regardless of my opinion I'm impressed that you're willing to take this on. Too often people seem to just complain and not try to change the system for the better or at least get people talking. Not just EMS but all areas of life.



I am a "speak less, act more" sort of person.


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## nemedic (Jul 8, 2011)

Lifeguards For Life said:


> Have any of these Facebook petitions ever been successful? I remember people making these in high school and always thought they were a rather immature way of addressing an issue?





bstone said:


> An immature way of dealing with the issue? Huh?
> 
> Yes, many, many facebook groups have succeeded in effecting change.



If it weren't for facebook, Betty White would never have hosted SNL.
:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## Dober317 (Jul 8, 2011)

I've joined up with your petition. I'll be moving into MA for college in September with a Connecticut EMT-B certification, and will be attaining my paramedic license (is it a license or a certification? :huh: ) while in Massachusetts as part of my degree. I'd be forever joyful if there was reciprocity!


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## bstone (Jul 9, 2011)

If you all haven't already, please join the group- even if you're not in MA!


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## Smash (Jul 10, 2011)

nwhitney said:


> I hope they don't. I don't like the idea of portable certs./licenses.



I must say I find this fascinating: it is the first time I have heard of someone _not_ wanting portability of qualification.  One of the reasons that the Australasian services have moved to a minimum Degree qualification for paramedics (with some have a post-graduate requirement to be "ALS" {whatever the hell that is}) is that portability between states/countries was not the same as with other health professions.  

As professionals it is not a matter of "In _this _service, _this _monkey can perform _this _skill", but a matter of practicing good medicine wherever you are.

With proper education it doesn't matter if you work in Alaska or Timbuktu, you will simply adapt to the different logistics and cultures as necessary.  An MI however, remains an MI irrespective of where it occurs.


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## nwhitney (Jul 10, 2011)

Smash said:


> I must say I find this fascinating: it is the first time I have heard of someone _not_ wanting portability of qualification.  One of the reasons that the Australasian services have moved to a minimum Degree qualification for paramedics (with some have a post-graduate requirement to be "ALS" {whatever the hell that is}) is that portability between states/countries was not the same as with other health professions.
> 
> As professionals it is not a matter of "In _this _service, _this _monkey can perform _this _skill", but a matter of practicing good medicine wherever you are.
> 
> With proper education it doesn't matter if you work in Alaska or Timbuktu, you will simply adapt to the different logistics and cultures as necessary.  An MI however, remains an MI irrespective of where it occurs.



I feel like I should clarify myself and perhaps I misunderstood the OP's original post.  I'm not necessarily against portability of certs./licenses and I would hope that states have a straightforward process for reciprocity.  I do however don't think someone should be able to go from one state to another and start working immediately based solely on holding a cert from NREMT.  If I went from Oregon to Florida I would encounter issues that I wouldn't encounter here, I'm referring to environmental issues.  Different regions have different climates and different wildlife.  There needs to be some training that each state requires to meet their needs.  I feel like I'll be a great EMT and hopefully great Paramedic in Oregon but if I went to Alaska I would struggle as I learn what is unique to them and I shouldn't learn by experience only.  Hopefully that makes sense as I have a tendency to ramble.


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## bstone (Jul 10, 2011)

So make them take a state specific 24 hour entry course, but there should be no need to retest them on being a competent EMT.


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## nwhitney (Jul 10, 2011)

bstone said:


> So make them take a state specific 24 hour entry course, but there should be no need to retest them on being a competent EMT.



I'm in favor of that and because you are so passionate I joined up also.


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## bstone (Jul 10, 2011)

Awesome, thanks for joining!

Only need 490 members more until I send it off to the MA OEMS. Come on people- join up!!!


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## bigbaldguy (Jul 10, 2011)

Lifeguards For Life said:


> Have any of these Facebook petitions ever been successful? I remember people making these in high school and always thought they were a rather immature way of addressing an issue?



Yah like all those silly syrians using it to overthrow an oppressive government where'd that get em, and don't even get me started on all those childish Chinese dissidents.


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## bstone (Jan 27, 2012)

The meeting with Rep Toomey went GREAT! I met with him and his legislative assistant. I presented them with a packet of information, which they went through. They asked a lot of questions and said they were very in favor of MA joining the rest of the country in accepting the NREMT. I showed how MA charges nearly $200 in fees to become an EMT while NH and CT charge no fees. They agreed that this is bad for EMTs and bad for the public. They said they would investigate to see if this can be fixed by a regulation or if it has to be fixed by legislation. They said they'll contact me next week and let me know what they've found out and what the next step is. Very exciting!


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## cynikalkat (Jan 27, 2012)

i heard MA was going to NREMT in 2 (or 4?) years. not true?

also, i joined & shared it with a few co-workers on FB.


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## bstone (Jan 27, 2012)

cynikalkat said:


> i heard MA was going to NREMT in 2 (or 4?) years. not true?
> 
> also, i joined & shared it with a few co-workers on FB.



I've heard nothing of it. Where did you hear it from? 2 or 4 years is too long.


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## cynikalkat (Jan 27, 2012)

bstone said:


> I've heard nothing of it. Where did you hear it from? 2 or 4 years is too long.



i heard it from 1 of our Medics/FFs just the other day.


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## bstone (Jan 27, 2012)

cynikalkat said:


> i heard it from 1 of our Medics/FFs just the other day.



Do you know here he/she heard it from? Last time I talked to the OEMS they said it would "never" happen.


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## cynikalkat (Jan 27, 2012)

bstone said:


> Do you know here he/she heard it from? Last time I talked to the OEMS they said it would "never" happen.



No I dont, but next time I work with him, I will ask him.


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## bstone (Jan 27, 2012)

cynikalkat said:


> No I dont, but next time I work with him, I will ask him.



Cool thanks. I've heard people say this sort of thing many times, but it usually turns out to be rumor.


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## cynikalkat (Jan 27, 2012)

bstone said:


> Cool thanks. I've heard people say this sort of thing many times, but it usually turns out to be rumor.



it probably is lol


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## bstone (Jan 27, 2012)

cynikalkat said:


> it probably is lol



This time it won't be rumor, but coming directly from my state rep.


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## Maine iac (Jan 28, 2012)

The MA OEMS is a huge joke. Talk about a pain in the ***. It took me close to 5 weeks just to have my paper work accepted. Guess when my $150 check was cashed? The first day it arrived, and when was my paperwork cleared? Weeks afterwards.

All I was hearing from the MA folks is that there is a paramedic shortage, and no wonder nobody wants to move there and deal with the certification process!

The test is administered by PSI, which is a national testing center like Pearson VUE. Can I take the test in my home state? Nope!


:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:


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## JPINFV (Jan 28, 2012)

Maine iac said:


> The test is administered by PSI, which is a national testing center like Pearson VUE. Can I take the test in my home state? Nope!



To somewhat defend this, when you pass the exam if you're otherwise qualified, you walk out with your license card.


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## Maine iac (Jan 28, 2012)

So the cost of me flying to MA just to take the test should be overlooked by the fact that I walk out with a card? :rofl:

When I can take the NREMT via pearson vue anywhere in the US and typically within a few hours have my number. What do I need a card for when all that matters is having a number which is very quickly posted to the NREMT.

The ONLY good thing about the OEMS testing is that if I fail, I can test the next day, versus waiting two weeks.


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## JPINFV (Jan 28, 2012)

Maine iac said:


> So the cost of me flying to MA just to take the test should be overlooked by the fact that I walk out with a card? :rofl:



Or you can always take it shortly after your arrival. Is the company you're interested in not requiring an in-person interview? 


> When I can take the NREMT via pearson vue anywhere in the US and typically within a few hours have my number. What do I need a card for when all that matters is having a number which is very quickly posted to the NREMT.



The NREMT exam does not provide a license to practice prehospital medicine. The state, however does. Additionally, in my experience, companies and state authorities want more than just a number.


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## CBentz12 (Jan 28, 2012)

JPINFV said:


> Or you can always take it shortly after your arrival. Is the company you're interested in not requiring an in-person interview?
> 
> 
> The NREMT exam does not provide a license to practice prehospital medicine. The state, however does. Additionally, in my experience, companies and state authorities want more than just a number.



A license or a certification?


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## JPINFV (Jan 28, 2012)

Certification: A document from some organization stating you their standards in a specific field. 

License: Permission from the government to perform an otherwise restricted activity. 

Regardless of what a state calls the card they hand out, it is a de facto license since you cannot practice as an EMT or paramedic without one.


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## bstone (Jan 28, 2012)

MA issues a certification, tho it works the same as a license. The EMT statute actually says "license or certification".


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## JPINFV (Jan 28, 2012)

bstone said:


> MA issues a certification, tho it works the same as a license. The EMT statute actually says "license or certification".



My favorite piece of legal code regarding license vs certification is the part in the California Business and Professions code that says that "license" and "certification" is the same thing... when dealing with physicians.


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## cynikalkat (Jan 30, 2012)

bstone said:


> This time it won't be rumor, but coming directly from my state rep.



I discussed this matter w/ the guy I thought I had told me, turns out it wasn't that particular medic, BUT, he and our ALS coordinator said its highly unlikely MA will switch, as OEMS gets $150 out of each EMT (all levels) who keeps their cert. Our ALS Coord said that its likely OEMS will start to accept NREMT but still make people take the MA test. The other medic gave a great example of how screwed up MA is when he moved from Alaska to MA and all the hoops he had to jump through. 

So, I think its rumor.


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## chardwan (Jan 30, 2012)

definitely a lot of noise swirling around about this.  i hope that they at least get a handle on the reciprocity.


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## bstone (Jan 30, 2012)

cynikalkat said:


> I discussed this matter w/ the guy I thought I had told me, turns out it wasn't that particular medic, BUT, he and our ALS coordinator said its highly unlikely MA will switch, as OEMS gets $150 out of each EMT (all levels) who keeps their cert. Our ALS Coord said that its likely OEMS will start to accept NREMT but still make people take the MA test. The other medic gave a great example of how screwed up MA is when he moved from Alaska to MA and all the hoops he had to jump through.
> 
> So, I think its rumor.



MA did change their rules to finally allow someone who is NREMT-certified to challenge MA's written and practical exam. It doesn't make much sense, as you can apply for a CT certification based upon your NREMT cert, and then use that to avoid the MA practical exam. A CT certification is free, so it only takes a little extra time.

Your ALS Coord is likely correct in that the OEMS will never accept the NREMT, unless they are forced to. I intend to see if they can be convinced of it.


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## medicdan (May 29, 2013)

Quick update:

The petition has closed, following MA OEMS' statements and efforts to transition entirely to NREMT testing and national standard competencies. Congratulations all all involved. I've been to a few of the state meetings and spoken to staff at OEMS at length about this, if anyone has questions. 

Many questions have been answered, others remain up in the air, but I think many agree this is a move in the right direction for the state.


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## takl23 (May 29, 2013)

As a new EMT student I have been told that we will test as NREMT's. When I signed up for the class I thought I was going to have to take the national after the Mass. Thank you to all who got this done! :beerchug:


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