# Super EMTs?



## VentMedic (Jun 29, 2009)

*Super EMTs Learn Rope Rescue Skills*

June 28th, 2009
http://www.charlottesvillenewsplex.tv/news/headlines/49388377.html



> The EMTs enjoy the rappelling, too.
> 
> "This is a blast," said William Daughtrey. "Rappelling is great, gravity is in control of you. You just kind of let go and take a ride."


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## Summit (Jun 29, 2009)

Super Duper


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## Sasha (Jun 29, 2009)

Super EMTs? Do they get to wear capes???

Rope Rescue is somethng that should probably be taught in a class that deals with extrications and rescues and not being in EMT class.


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## medic417 (Jun 29, 2009)

I sure hope its an add on and not built in to the 110 hours EMT course.  EMT's are already short changed on education and to take away even more hours for this should be a crime.  If an add on no problem.  Of course to the title well just ridiculous.  I'm super emt here to do nothing but hold your hand and watch you die as I chose this fun rope course rather than going and getting medical education, super aye.


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## JPINFV (Jun 29, 2009)

Sasha said:


> Super EMTs? Do they get to wear capes???


[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M68ndaZSKa8[/YOUTUBE]


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## Ridryder911 (Jun 29, 2009)

*Whoopee do!.. *So what? That's nice...too bad they probably don't know jack squat about medical care. 

 "_Daughtrey says he decided to get involved with the Super EMT class because of the great opportunities it provides."_

Oh yeah, so many EMS performs repelling right after that nursing home call.... gimmee a break! 

This needs to be within a specialized rescue or wildnerness EMT course. 

Our local program used to have repelling within the Basic class also, yeah real helpful in the  flat lands! It was later replaced with Scuba diving... again, nice in the plains. How ironic, whatever the Instructor new side business was she mandated within the program.... 

How about increasing the clinical hours or anatomy, or something they will really use. Make it fun, sure but be practical. 

R/r 911


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## Sasha (Jun 29, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M68ndaZSKa8[/YOUTUBE]



I heart Edna Mode.


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## LucidResq (Jun 29, 2009)

WTF?! 

Wow, what a shining example of journalistic excellence. 



> "I don't know of any other place around here that does it," said Sarah Ferrell, an EMT-B and instructor for the class.



Why is an EMT-B the instructor for an EMT-B course?


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## VentMedic (Jun 29, 2009)

LucidResq said:


> WTF?!
> 
> Why is an EMT-B the instructor for an EMT-B course?


 
Which is why she probably has no idea there is more medical stuff that can be taught. As well, she is probably not an educator. Unless the program is in a college, there are few if any requirements for EMT(P) instructors. You just have to hold a cert at the same level you are teaching. A two week EMT or a 3 month medic mill grad can start instructing a class in some areas almost as soon as they pass their cert exam. 

This article is a great example of cluelessness about the profession. The medical material in the EMT-B is barely adequate to even do first-aid and yet they want to learn more exciting skills because they obviously don't know enough medicine to see how that can also be exciting as well as a vital asset to being an EMT.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jun 29, 2009)

So, if you are an EMT and you are also taught how to perform rope rescue work, then you are labeled a S-EMT?  COOL!  In that case I am a RSD-EMT (Really Super Duper Emergency Medical Technician)!

I have no problem with EMTs and Medics expanding their emergency services training in a non medical way.  In fact, several agencies around my area require rope rescue certification for EMTs because if there is (for instance) an over the bank MVC, the ambo crew will also rappel the embankment with Fire (most of which are MFR).

But to make it part of your EMT class seems a little... well... stupid.  If your grandma is having a stroke, you really do not care if your EMS crew is certified, in ropes, swiftwater, dive, a probate lawyer, or as a mime.  You want them to have an exceptional medical education.  My EMT class was 150 hours (without A&P and basic cardiology), and would have liked it to been at least 250 hours.  Based on the photo in that article, they are performing high angle techniques.  In my area, the low angle class is 27+ hours and the high angle (must be taken in that order) is 24+ hours.  Even if you can somehow compress that (how do you do that safely, while providing the EMT with the training needed on a real ropes call), those are a lot of hours taken away from EMT class that is only offered on the weekends for 3 months!  On top of that, are the EMTs you put out there going to have a post-schooling opportunity and ability to perform the ropes skills they have learned?  As Rid stated, how many times have you been forced to rappel into a SNF?  So those skills will be forgotten and lost over time, never having been used in the field... so what was the point.  Personally, a good part of my SAR gig is ropes; and despite the fact that I train regularly on those skills, I still have issues with staying fluent in those skills.  FOCUS ON THE MEDICINE!!!  If you want/need to learn ropes, ICS, water rescue, dive, haz-mat, etc. go to separate classes that teach and certify those things.  Do not take time away from what limited hours EMT is already compose of and allow the students to focus on one thing at a time!!!


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jun 29, 2009)

LITTLE RESEARCH and I am not sre how many hours this class is, however it appears to be 4 months of cramming to be part of the local rescue squad.  In addition to EMT, there is a lot of awareness level training, ropes, trench, confined space, etc...  Sounds like they are trying to provide as much information and certification as possible ion a short amount of time so that they can put non-fire EMS/Rescue vollies out there to protect their community... good idea, but wrong way of doing it IMHO!!!  I am not a "boo voliie" person (like some), but I have issues with the way some present volunteering in emergency services as is demostrated by this setup.  Take out the EMT portion of the course and it is all good!  Good medical care should not be thrown in there!!!

http://www.rescue1.org/semt.html

"Super" EMT Class is unique to CARS. First taught in 2001, the class was designed for individuals to become well versed in rescue and EMT-B over a four month time period. The class is intense, with EMT lecture/practical taught on weekdays and rescue related classes taught over weekends. With eight years of experience sponsoring this class, we have found that most SEMT graduates join CARS and make an immediate impact on staffing and tend to stay longer. Many close friendships are made and each class tends to become very unique. In addition to the standard EMT-B curriculum, the following certification classes may also taught: 

 VDFP Hazardous Materials Awareness 
 CARS Technical Rescue Awareness* 
 CARS Fire Scene Awareness* 
 CARS Swift Water Awareness* 
 CARS Vehicle Rescue Operations 
 CARS Trench Rescue Operations 
 CARS Rope Rescue Operations 
 CARS Confined Space Rescue Operations 
 NFA Rescue Systems I 
 NIMS ICS-100 Introduction to Incident Command System** 
 NIMS ICS-200 ICS for Single Resource Incidents** 
 NIMS ICS-700 National Incident Management System** 
 Helicopter Landing Zone Awareness


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## HotelCo (Jun 29, 2009)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> CARS Fire Scene Awareness*



If it is, or was hot, stay away.


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## Hockey (Jun 29, 2009)

So you can't be an EMT-B instructor if you're an EMT-B?


Give me a break 


Sure its great to have a Paramedic level as an instructor.


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## Ridryder911 (Jun 29, 2009)

Hockey9019 said:


> So you can't be an EMT-B instructor if you're an EMT-B?
> 
> 
> Give me a break
> ...



Actually, many states has provisions of RN's can be one without being an EMT. Actually a lot of EMT instructors are actually just Basic EMT's. 

My state just require one to have two years experience and be at the least the same level or above to teach any EMS course. (CPR instructor is required)

R/r 911


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jun 29, 2009)

Ridryder911 said:


> Actually, many states has provisions of RN's can be one without being an EMT. Actually a lot of EMT instructors are actually just Basic EMT's.
> 
> My state just require one to have two years experience and be at the least the same level or above to teach any EMS course. (CPR instructor is required)
> 
> R/r 911



In this case, these are all volunteers and the traiing is provided in-house, so EMT-B is probably all that they have available.  If you look a that site above, the cost of the course is 25$ to cover the cost of 2 t-shirts (oh no, the t-shirt thread again ).  They probably have a few "old-timer" EMTs that they arranged to get any additional training/certification to teach (if any).  IMHO, I'm okay with EMTs working with a higher level provider to teach the class, provided that the EMT has a lot of real world experience.  In my case, the class was taught by a 30-year vet Paramedic that used 2 EMTs and a MICN to teach certain portions or when he had other parts of the EMS program to deal with.  One EMT was a 20 year vet of Ambo and Fire (District Chief) who knew his stuff and the other was a Wilderness EMT that came in to teach the environmental portions of the class.  Worked for me.


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## VentMedic (Jun 29, 2009)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> One EMT was a 20 year vet of Ambo and Fire (District Chief) who knew his stuff


 
But if you have no prior medical experience, he could have just been spinning a good tale and you may never know the difference. Remember the old saying "Just dazzle them with BS when you don't have the answers to their questions". 

Some instructors are also voted most popular by the cool stories they tell instead of talking about all that boring medical stuff in the book. 

Sections that require special knowledge and skills such as those pertaining to the environment or wilderness may be taught by someone who has experience. However, I have sat in on some SCUBA classes given by "experienced" divers that are just dangerous in that they have learned too many dangerous shortcuts and have forgotten the basic priniciples.


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## LucidResq (Jun 29, 2009)

Hockey9019 said:


> So you can't be an EMT-B instructor if you're an EMT-B?
> 
> 
> Give me a break
> ...



Just strange to me considering in my area it is absolutely standard for EMT-B instructors to be paramedics at a minimum, and instructors are required by the Dept. of Health to complete first an assistant EMS instructor course, then a primary instructor course.


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## Hockey (Jun 29, 2009)

LucidResq said:


> Just strange to me considering in my area it is absolutely standard for EMT-B instructors to be paramedics at a minimum, and instructors are required by the Dept. of Health to complete first an assistant EMS instructor course, then a primary instructor course.




Same here though just sayin


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## VentMedic (Jun 29, 2009)

CNAs require an RN as an instructor.

RNs, RRTs, SLPs, PTs ect require their educators to hold a Masters or Doctorate.   

Surely it would not be too much to ask to have instuctors hold at least 2x the education of the cert they are teaching.  Although for EMT-B, that still might only be 4 weeks.


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## rescuepoppy (Jun 29, 2009)

I know from some situations I have been in it would be nice to have parmedics who are trained in rope rescue and other fields,but this should not be built in with the EMT-B program. Every area has its own special needs that medical personnel have to deal with at one time or another. We recently ran into a call where a patient was trapped on top of a water tower with a possible femur fracture. We were on scene with this patient for close to an hour rigging every thing to lower him to the ground with only basics and intermediates tending to him. Three paramedics who were on the call had no training in high angle work.so we had to wait on giving pain meds until two medics who are also volunteers with our rescue unit to get back from an out of town trip to give any pain meds to this patient. And as an answer to an earlier Question two of the medics that were on scene had just returned to service after a call at a nursing home. So yes we should be prepared to handle what evr might come in in our area. This however should not be a part of a basic class,rather astand alone class after the medical part is completed.


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## LucidResq (Jun 29, 2009)

rescuepoppy said:


> This however should not be a part of a basic class,rather astand alone class after the medical part is completed.



I absolutely agree that the "medical" components of an EMT-B course should be first priority, however I do not think that it's necessarily a bad thing to include these extra elements as long as they do not preclude any of the important stuff. 

For example, towards the end of my course we spent a day with a FD and a local air medical service on extrication and working with the helicopter. Yes, it was a blast to cut up cars and land a helicopter. However, a lot of important pertinent information was learned, because the focus was always on safety (ie: don't stick your head in front of an air bag at an MVA and don't get close to the tail rotors) and patient care (ie: what methods of extrication are appropriate for particular pt. and/or scene conditions, when is air evac a good option for tx). 

These basic skills are vital for a very large number of those working in EMS not only in my area, but across the country. Yes, spending time in EMT class doing stuff like dive rescue or high-angle rock rescue will probably be a waste of time for most, but there are some "rescue extras" that are likely beneficial.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jun 29, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> But if you have no prior medical experience, he could have just been spinning a good tale and you may never know the difference. Remember the old saying "Just dazzle them with BS when you don't have the answers to their questions".
> 
> Some instructors are also voted most popular by the cool stories they tell instead of talking about all that boring medical stuff in the book.
> 
> Sections that require special knowledge and skills such as those pertaining to the environment or wilderness may be taught by someone who has experience. However, I have sat in on some SCUBA classes given by "experienced" divers that are just dangerous in that they have learned too many dangerous shortcuts and have forgotten the basic priniciples.



Agreed.  As a newbie, you have no real idea who is teaching you, only that they have more knowledge and experience than you... but no telling what constitues "more".  You can have a EMT instructor who is a great instructor that prepares you for the test and for real life... or you can have a MICN/CCP who has spent too much time in school and not enough in real life and teaches you nothing.  In my case (in hind sight) I was lucky as the instructors I had are highly regarded the area as was the program I attended and turned out a great number of excellent EMTs and Medics...  mind you that none of those instructors are around anymore, and the program has since gone down hill.



rescuepoppy said:


> I know from some situations I have been in it would be nice to have parmedics who are trained in rope rescue and other fields,but this should not be built in with the EMT-B program. Every area has its own special needs that medical personnel have to deal with at one time or another. We recently ran into a call where a patient was trapped on top of a water tower with a possible femur fracture. We were on scene with this patient for close to an hour rigging every thing to lower him to the ground with only basics and intermediates tending to him. Three paramedics who were on the call had no training in high angle work.so we had to wait on giving pain meds until two medics who are also volunteers with our rescue unit to get back from an out of town trip to give any pain meds to this patient. And as an answer to an earlier Question two of the medics that were on scene had just returned to service after a call at a nursing home. So yes we should be prepared to handle what evr might come in in our area. This however should not be a part of a basic class,rather astand alone class after the medical part is completed.



Considering that rope certification is even easier to attain than EMT cert (I know, hard to believe) it makes sense for Medics and EMTs to consider getting the training... in addition to EMS training... not part of it!



LucidResq said:


> I absolutely agree that the "medical" components of an EMT-B course should be first priority, however I do not think that it's necessarily a bad thing to include these extra elements as long as they do not preclude any of the important stuff.
> 
> For example, towards the end of my course we spent a day with a FD and a local air medical service on extrication and working with the helicopter. Yes, it was a blast to cut up cars and land a helicopter. However, a lot of important pertinent information was learned, because the focus was always on safety (ie: don't stick your head in front of an air bag at an MVA and don't get close to the tail rotors) and patient care (ie: what methods of extrication are appropriate for particular pt. and/or scene conditions, when is air evac a good option for tx).
> 
> These basic skills are vital for a very large number of those working in EMS not only in my area, but across the country. Yes, spending time in EMT class doing stuff like dive rescue or high-angle rock rescue will probably be a waste of time for most, but there are some "rescue extras" that are likely beneficial.



The DOT course work for EMT-B does include a chapter (in AAOS and Brady) on water rescue safety, helicopter safety, scene safety, etc... so I can understand spending a day with Fire, who know that stuff (I hope); it sure beats sitting in clas seeing power point on it!  But that is a far cry from including ropes and trench and confined space rescue in with the EMT course.  The "rescue extras" need to be seperate and only for those who will be doing it in real life.


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## Ridryder911 (Jun 29, 2009)

Usually thirty minutes is enough unless you are responsible for providing rescue. Then Rescue should be a specialized and in-depth course. 

R/r 911


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## spisco85 (Jun 30, 2009)

The website says the class is held two days a week for four hours and some weekends. That is barely enough for an EMT class.


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## daedalus (Jun 30, 2009)

*WHOP DE DOO!*

The title of this thread and the news story had me laughing into tears! Super EMT? EMT-Super. Dear lord just when you think EMS cannot get any worse, someone comes up with something like this. Wow. It is like a child's cartoon.

Super Doctor and Super Nurses are next.


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## ResTech (Jun 30, 2009)

This article reminds me of a a local newspaper who did a story on a fire company that hosted a 16hr traumatic brain injury course. The paper really talked up the EMT's as being able to provide superior brain injury care and even made a claim that this department's EMT's could provide better care to the TBI patient then other county EMS personnel because of the 16hr course... it was a funny article and laugh of the county.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jun 30, 2009)

daedalus said:


> *WHOP DE DOO!*
> 
> The title of this thread and the news story had me laughing into tears! Super EMT? EMT-Super. Dear lord just when you think EMS cannot get any worse, someone comes up with something like this. Wow. It is like a child's cartoon.
> 
> Super Doctor and Super Nurses are next.



I's like to stay here and discuss how rude I think it is to laugh at us Super Hero EMT's... but I have a have a 80 y/o blue bloater that is trapped comfortably on her bed on the first floor of a SNF that I need to rappel to so that I can transport her to dialysis...  (humming them to superman as I fly code 3...)  







I Do Believe I have Found a New Avater For Me...​


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## medic417 (Jun 30, 2009)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> I's like to stay here and discuss how rude I think it is to laugh at us Super Hero EMT's... but I have a have a 80 y/o blue bloater that is trapped comfortably on her bed on the first floor of a SNF that I need to rappel to so that I can transport her to dialysis...  (humming them to superman as I fly code 3...)
> 
> 
> 
> ...








LOL funny.  You can get rich on tshirt sells.​


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## Hal9000 (Jun 30, 2009)

Unfortunately, I have routinely seen EMT-B "instructors" teaching EMT-B classes without any real medical knowledge or even any college-level training.  This has led to some things that honestly frighten me.  I have seen things that are absolutely wrong taught...such as the Fowler-Trendelenburg, which is like this \_/, for trauma patients.  I mean, what the...what...you need all the blood in your butt or what?

Also, I recently saw a flaming ambulance pass me, I kid you not.  Flaming.  It was on fire.  With a patient.  

Yep, professional EMS baby...


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## daedalus (Jun 30, 2009)

EMT-Supers (EMT-S or SEMT) are known to drive flaming ambulances to increase the stress and adrenalin of everyone around.


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## JPINFV (Jun 30, 2009)

daedalus said:


> EMT-Supers (EMT-S or SEMT) are known to drive flaming ambulances to increase the stress and adrenalin of everyone around.



I've never seen a flaming ambulance. Do they have a little rainbow flag on them? Do they look fabulous?


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## Hal9000 (Jun 30, 2009)

No, they look to be doing 47 MPH without any front tire and starting two brush fires...it gets worse, but I'll not get this too off topic.  I'm still freaked out at what I saw, not kidding.  

Although it sounds funny, I've never been more frightened that this is apparently acceptable.   Sheared the front tire in half and drove code on it for 3.4 miles for a patient that was released within the hour for a routine problem.

Anyway, that's enough from me.


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## Shishkabob (Jul 1, 2009)

I kid you not, there is a BLS IFT here in Ft Worth called "Soldier EMS".  They drive vanbulances that are painted with yellow and black flames.

I've search all around for a pic, but can't find any.


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## VentMedic (Jul 1, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> I've never seen a flaming ambulance. Do they have a little rainbow flag on them? Do they look fabulous?


 
Saw one this past weekend.  It was a scream.


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## daedalus (Jul 1, 2009)

VentMedic said:


> Saw one this past weekend.  It was a scream.



Really? Let me know where...


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## Foxbat (Jul 1, 2009)

Hal9000 said:


> Also, I recently saw a flaming ambulance pass me, I kid you not.  Flaming.  It was on fire.  With a patient.







Stolen from http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=109060


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jul 1, 2009)

medic417 said:


> You can get rich on tshirt sells.​




Too late:

http://shop.cafepress.com/design/15350411
     (he he he... http://clothing.cafepress.com/item/super-emt-classic-thong/83118252)

http://shop.cafepress.com/design/18165572
     (he he he... http://clothing.cafepress.com/item/emt-classic-thong/127829260)

http://shop.cafepress.com/design/19231536
     (he he he... http://clothing.cafepress.com/item/superhero-emt-classic-thong/262963339)

I double dog dare someone to buy one of those he he he's...  ^_^
Are We Serious?...


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## Medic744 (Jul 1, 2009)

JPINFV said:


> I've never seen a flaming ambulance. Do they have a little rainbow flag on them? Do they look fabulous?



No joking there is a local private service that is Gay/Lesbian oriented and their equipment (spider straps, etc) is rainbow colored and has a rainbow flag on it. Then again we also have one that is geared to our large Hispanic population also.


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## Mountain Res-Q (Jul 1, 2009)

Medic744 said:


> Then again we also have one that is geared to our large Hispanic population also.



Old toilet bowl planter on the roof, a pot of refried beans warming on the manifold, and a siren that plays La Cucaracha?

For your information.. I can say that due to my heritage...  No need for righteous indignation from anyone.  The hispanic portion of my family would be laughing.  ^_^


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## Medic744 (Jul 1, 2009)

Mountain Res-Q said:


> Old toilet bowl planter on the roof, a pot or refried beans warming on the manifold, and a siren that plays La Cucaracha?
> 
> For your information.. I can say that due to my heritage...  No need for righteous indignation from anyone.  The hispanic portion of my family would be laughing.  ^_^



LOL I can find that hilarious and pretty true to form with my heritage!!!


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## emtbill (Jul 4, 2009)

C.A.R.S. is a highly progressive and well respected EMS agency within Virginia. They run over 10,000 calls a year with 24/7 ALS coverage with volunteers all without billing a cent. They are also the technical rescue providers in this obviously populous area so it is necessary for all of their members to have basic understanding of what is going on at a rescue scene. You're all misconstruing what this news article said about an EMT-B instructor. She didn't teach the EMT class, but was rather an adjunctive instructor for the rescue portion. As the first woman to be released as both a driver and operator of the squad's two largest crash trucks, she is well qualified for the position. You can find the requirements for this level of responsibility on their website.

In Virginia, to host and teach an EMT-B class, you have to be an EMT Instructor, which is a separate certification issued by the state. It requires a minimum of 2 years active experience as an EMT, and passing of written and practical exams. The pretest for this certification has less than a 50% pass rate and the written essays and practicals are even worse. Furthermore, training in methods of instruction are required, which are taught biannually at our start technical rescue college and at spring convention.

I think it's excellent that C.A.R.S. is requiring more out of their EMT class by teaching this rescue training. While you can make the argument that they should apply this time to more A&P, you have to keep in mind that these EMT's (and most across the state) are not instantly released to run BLS calls when they get their card. There is a lengthy apprenticeship with a senior member where the EMT's collect calls, gain more knowledge, and are critiqued on their skills before they're released as a technician. It's more beneficial to teach these students introductions to rescue than it is more medical knowledge that is probably outside their scope of practice anyway. One person in this thread gave an example of an EMT not knowing how to care for a stroke patient because of this rescue training. What? Within their scope of practice, an EMT would do the same thing for a stroke patient as a neurologist would. The "super" EMT's receive plenty of training for the interventions they are allowed. What if grandma's car was over an embankment on fire? I'm pretty sure you would rather have a "super" EMT there who could rappel down with a fire extinguisher than one with more A&P.

Of course, I'm not saying more medical training is not beneficial for an EMT-B, just not that what this agency is doing is worthless. If this were a paramedic program, where the providers could do more than put oxygen on you and hold your hand, then I think this extra time would be better spent elsewhere.


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## VentMedic (Jul 4, 2009)

Does this area not have a fire department that also does some of the rescue?

The way this was presented on their site is the "skills" were just an intro or an awareness to give wet their appetite and not actually prepare them for doing the rescue.


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