# Why we never run...



## jester_1269

I was green...very green...got called out to a 10-0.  Had no idea what that was.  Finally asked the other EMT "well, what do you need, I'll get it ready." to which she replied "ya know, I dont know...".  Great.  So we get there and I ask what a 10-0 was.  "DOA" came the reply.  The other EMT walked in first while I helped park the bus in a very muddy parking area.  As the driver and I went in the EMT came trotting down the hallway, points at me and says "Hey, go get the AED!"  Instantly adrenaline starts pumping, my mind races, and I run...yes, run...to the truck.  I JUMP in, GRAB the AED, and RUN back inside to the awaiting EMT, family, and driver. All of which looking right at me with a quizzical look on their faces.  "Why'd you run?" the EMT asked "She's been dead for hours...we just need to hook it up to verify it for the coroner when he gets here."

Which is why I never, ever, run.

We were all newbies once, right?


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## GonnaBeEMT

We never run because we look like total idiots when we fall. Oh! it hurts too.


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## Sasha

I never run because I run like a dork :] 

I was told that Medics/EMTs as a profession never run by an instructor because it's not your emergency, you can't asses scene safety very well running in, and it makes patients and bystanders anxious.

And it would really suck tripping and falling and braking the lifepack you were carrying for your arrest patient :]


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## EMTinNEPA

I never run because I'm already burnt out and I don't really care enough to run.


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## Vonny

I bet this fellow wishes he took his time getting to the patient

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=0FN9IboKaPc&feature=related


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## gillysaurus

^ LMAO!! 

At least he gave himself some more work to do. Stand-bys at games can get so boring!


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## JPINFV

I don't run because then I'll be out of breath by the time I reach the patient.


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## Ridryder911

This reminds me of many years ago there was a show called Rescue 911, it was hosted by William Shatner. It basically had re-enactments of life saving calls. 

There was a call that I responded on in which a female was ran-over by a car with a child and saved by a bystander that was ran over during the event. We were to reenact this and the producer was irritated because we refused to run to our units and then refused to run to the patient. In fact my partner (who NEVER became excited on anything) walked very slowly. They were appalled that we would not rush in .. We explained the difference between their world and ours. 

R/r 911


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## daedalus

Rid, your OLD! Hehehe I love that show but its old. All the firemen run to the rig in that show, its hilarious.


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## sarahharter

i dont run cuz im a clutz from hell and i trip over myself just walking can you imagine what would happen if i ran?!


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## Shishkabob

The first time I watched Rescue 911 I was 6 and I called 911 and said "My mommy has fallen and can't get up" and left the phone off the hook.


'twas my first meeting with a LEO!!! And the only time on the bad side!


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## lightsandsirens5

Ha ha ha!!!

That is GREAT!!!!


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## raisingkahne9

I liked Rescue 911, because I dont think that there was one episode that I watched, that someone had actually died, I guess they didnt want to show that side of reality.


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## EMTCop86

I ran to the fire engine once and my fire captain yelled at me and told me not to run, so thus I don't run anymore.


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## Sapphyre

That's funny, I regularly run to the rig.  Usually at night, when we're level 2 or 3 (and they didn't tell us) and we were out of the rig when we get a call that we MIGHT make it to on time.  No, we don't get out of the rig if we know levels are low.


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## karaya

EMTCop86 said:


> I ran to the fire engine once and my fire captain yelled at me and told me not to run, so thus I don't run anymore.


 
That's because they're too fat to keep up with you!


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## Shishkabob

I know why I don't run at the firestation anymore.


I was at the firestation one night sleeping for my clinicals.  We only had 3 calls the WHOLE day before, when 12-15 is the norm in 24 hours.

So, we got to go to sleep at 9, and went to 6 with no calls.  At 6 AM, the alarm goes off, I jump out of my bed, grabbed my steth, and ran out to the truck.

I stood there like an idiot for a few seconds, not seeing another firefighter until my preceptor came out laughing.  "Oh, I forgot to tell you, we test the station alarm every morning at 6am"


They proceeded to do that to every student that had clinicals there.

-_-


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## Explorer127

Vonny said:


> I bet this fellow wishes he took his time getting to the patient
> 
> http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=0FN9IboKaPc&feature=related



that has to be one of the funniest things I have seen in a very long time..


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## Summit

On my second ambulance run ever I was told, "We don't run. We do the EMT-Walk(tm)."

I remember watching Rescue 911. It was so hard to ever take Shatner seriously. I enjoyed the show though.


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## 41 Duck

I do not run.  Unless in mortal danger.  And even then, I prefer to fight.


Later!

--Coop


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## Sasha

41 Duck said:


> I do not run.  Unless in mortal danger.  And even then, I prefer to fight.
> 
> 
> Later!
> 
> --Coop




I'd prefer to run away! Fight another day, they say.


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## Flight-LP

Ridryder911 said:


> This reminds me of many years ago there was a show called Rescue 911, it was hosted by William Shatner. It basically had re-enactments of life saving calls.
> 
> R/r 911



***sigh*** The sad part is I vividly remember watching this show every week while at work. Thanks for the "many years ago" addition, I really wasn't feeling old enough this morning..................


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## EeyoreEMT

Well, in most cases running makes you look like an idiot, especially when you fall or stumble, my nickname was Miss Congeniality, from the tripping, to dripping food, having a backup gun for my back up and then always carrying at least two knives, ya a little obsessive, i know. However, there have been calls I have ran on. A month old baby not breathing, still pink-closed family friend who hung herself, we missed her by 20 minutes according to the coronor; an a kinda hustly for entrapment or people I know. If your upset, they will get upset.


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## EeyoreEMT

Hey, 911 guy, I worked with a medic who was on 911 for saving a kid trapped under ice in a pond. It was like 20-30 under, he got her back. It was pretty cool.


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## EeyoreEMT

No, the best show was Emergency! I loved it and that's what I wanted to do when I grew up. And, there's the classic movie "Mother, Juggs and Speed"


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## imurphy

When I started on a vol unit, back in 1996, I remember running to my first call. Something stupid I think I was covering a soccer event or something. 

My OC called me back, smacked me upside the head, and said "We never run. We look stupid"

That's how I learnt everythign my first year. If I messed up, I was hit in the head. And I can tell you, I never forgot any of that stuff!


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## Airwaygoddess

I don't run I just walk very quickly  ******


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## Airwaygoddess

*Made Airway's day!*



EeyoreEMT said:


> No, the best show was Emergency! I loved it and that's what I wanted to do when I grew up. And, there's the classic movie "Mother, Juggs and Speed"



Eeyore you are my new best bud!!!   ^_^^_^     KMG365!!  WooT! WooT!


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## marineman

Flight-LP said:


> ***sigh*** The sad part is I vividly remember watching this show every week while at work. Thanks for the "many years ago" addition, I really wasn't feeling old enough this morning..................



If it makes you feel any better I could only watch half of it because at that age I had to be in bed by 8


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## daedalus

The sad part is that while LA county got a great start (Emergency!), they still think they are in that era and the protocols have not changed since. In fact, the red paramedic squads and the orange tackle boxes are the same now as they were then.


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## Sapphyre

daedalus said:


> The sad part is that while LA county got a great start (Emergency!), they still think they are in that era and the protocols have not changed since. In fact, the red paramedic squads and the orange tackle boxes are the same now as they were then.



Don't forget the BLS 911 ambulances...


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## Jon

Flight-LP said:


> ***sigh*** The sad part is I vividly remember watching this show every week while at work. Thanks for the "many years ago" addition, I really wasn't feeling old enough this morning..................


Hey - When I was a junior at the VFC, we had Emergency! in re-runs every day at 1600 - it was referred to as "Training" and an effort was usually made to watch it... sometimes with some interesting discussions about how we'd accomplish this or that.

And I'm not that old. AK - just say you watched re-runs and all will be good!


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## Jon

Summit said:


> On my second ambulance run ever I was told, "We don't run. We do the EMT-Walk(tm)."


I was told about the same. And now that I'm older, and wiser than I was then... I get to educate the current n00b's.




Summit said:


> I remember watching Rescue 911. It was so hard to ever take Shatner seriously. I enjoyed the show though.


How can it be .... hard....... to take...... William Shatner.... Seriously?


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## Second

daedalus said:


> The sad part is that while LA county got a great start (Emergency!), they still think they are in that era and the protocols have not changed since. In fact, the red paramedic squads and the orange tackle boxes are the same now as they were then.



I heard that when ppl called 911 they asked if the guys from tv could come to help them...

I couldnt help but laugh when I heard this


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## Fir Na Au Saol

I've always had in pounded into my head to never run on a scene for two reasons. 

1. Safety. You fall and break yourself, then you are just an extra patient to drag along.
2. Professional image. You're the one to whom everybody is looking to be the source of calm in the midst of crisis.

I have heard veterans threaten to break a newbie's leg if they ever saw him/her running on a scene again. (The threat was really in jest, but it was used to emphasize the lesson.)


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## Fir Na Au Saol

*Station 51, KMG 365!*



EeyoreEMT said:


> No, the best show was Emergency! I loved it and that's what I wanted to do when I grew up. And, there's the classic movie "Mother, Juggs and Speed"


I have the first 4 seasons of Emergency on DVD. I remember watching Johnny and Roy religiously every week as a kid. I almost cried when I had to miss an EMS conference here in New Mexico that featured Randy Mantooth as guest speaker. 

At the small service where I currently work, some of the old timers have nicknames from "Mother, Juggs and Speed." Unfortunatly one of or FORMER medics got dubbed "Murdoch". :unsure:


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## NorthCoastChick

Airwaygoddess said:


> I don't run I just walk very quickly  ******



Lol. What happens if you're very short like me? I have to do a kind of half run-half shuffle that looks kind of stupid to keep up with some of the very tall men at the station. I'm sure it inspires _all kinds_ of confidence...


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## EMTCop86

A very good point my skills instructor brought up today...If you need to run to a patient because they are that critical you are probably too late already. Take the extra few seconds to walk in, observe, and form your plan of action.


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## Wyoming Medic

Well,  While I agree that running is not so good on scene, I certainly hope that my fellow EMTs of all levels do some running in the off time.

I TRY to stay fit (heck, I am a firefighter as well as a medic) but there are some of my comrades that are so out of shape they start a duoneb on themselves ENROUTE to a call.  I guess the excitement is too much for them.

We have one guy that is so soggy around the mid section that he cannot purchase a uniform shirt big enough (and we have tried 3X).  He is a paid staff member and cannot function in the slightest.  We cover a county of almost 6,000 square miles and our most common call is a "one vehicle rollover".  This guy is so out of it that he cant even crawl into the bar ditches to help out.  Then when the patients do see him they get this disgusted look on their face and request somebody else to take care of them.

My point it, PLEASE EXERCISE. I am a big, awkward person (6'5" tall and 230LBS) so if I can do it, anybody can.

Wy medic

We may now all get back to the topic at hand after I hijacked it.


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## EMSChief803

*Don't run*

I remember being a newbie and running around an MVC scene in rural upstate NY...grabbing long boards and head blocks...someone grabbed me and said "SLOW DOWN".   

15 year later, I'm much more relaxed on calls.  Still, I walk fast sometimes.  A couple of years ago I was walking around a county squad car and totally went *** over tea kettle and hurt my ankle enough to go to ER for an x-ray.  Luckily nothing was broke.  Even more luckily...no one saw me fall...B)


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## EeyoreEMT

you know, the one comming up in Culumbus, oh is going to have the dark haired co-star. I dont remember which on he is, my brain is fried right now


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## EeyoreEMT

I do agree, I have seen many times, many new people run in, almost with empty hands, then, one has to run back out for supplies. How dumb. The ones I was refering to were possibly non-breathing infants and/or children. If it was trauma related, one of us stayed back to gather necessary c-spine equp. and followed in, not running.


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## Sasha

> This guy is so out of it that he cant even crawl into the bar ditches to help out. Then when the patients do see him they get this disgusted look on their face and request somebody else to take care of them.



That's really sad that your patients are so closed minded they don't want a fat person taking care of them.


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## medic417

Sasha said:


> That's really sad that your patients are so closed minded they don't want a fat person taking care of them.



If the over weight person looks professional it is not usually a problem.  But when they look and smell bad how can you blame someone for asking someone else to take care of them.  Plus if a persons weight keeps them from doing their job which includes getting into the ditch that the person you qouted said they could not they should not be in 911 EMS even, so then the patients would not even be in position to ask for a change.


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## EMTinNEPA

Sasha said:


> That's really sad that your patients are so closed minded they don't want a fat person taking care of them.



I agree.  Some of the best medics and techs I know are big fellas, including Paramedic of the Year recipients.


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## medic417

EMTinNEPA said:


> I agree.  Some of the best medics and techs I know are big fellas, including Paramedic of the Year recipients.



I bet the patients were not just complaining about the weight.  I bet they complained because they looked unprofessional.  I know some very big very good medics.  But they keep themselves clean and they buy proper sized uniforms.  So they look big and professional, they do not look like big slobs.


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## Griff

medic417 said:


> I bet the patients were not just complaining about the weight.  I bet they complained because they looked unprofessional.  I know some very big very good medics.  But they keep themselves clean and they buy proper sized uniforms.  So they look big and professional, they do not look like big slobs.



Sasha has an excellent point, IMO, but I think I get where you are coming from as well. I have been in law enforcement for five years now and some of our people are absolutely filthy (literally). I do not think it has anything to do with weight (at least in these cases); the smell and overall grimy appearance significantly detracts from our collective image and hinders our effectiveness to a degree (i.e. witnesses/victims tend to cut FIs short if they are repulsed by the interviewing officer). Again, I don't necessarily think it's about the weight (most of our best officers are big individuals); It's about hygiene. Just my two cents ^_^


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## Wyoming Medic

Sasha said:


> That's really sad that your patients are so closed minded they don't want a fat person taking care of them.




CorrectaMundo Sasha.  It is sad if the patient was requesting a replacement just because the EMT was overweight.

Everybody that has replied has been correct.  This particular person smells like a foot.  On a 48 hour shift he will not shower.  He also smokes like a freight train and smells accordingly.  It is a mix of BO and smoke.

That being said though, Let me delve into the overweight thing a little more.  While I myself am not overweight, I am the son and nephew of extremely overweight people.  My mother, Her identical twin sister and another aunt of mine all had gastric bypass ON THE SAME DAY several years ago.  They were all VERY obese prior to the surgery.

It was interesting to watch the public's perception and treatment of them prior to the surgery then gradually as they lost weight.  People truly do treat obese people as stupid.  I have caught myself guilty of it.  In the back of my mind I say "why can't they just be skinny, it isn't rocket science".  However seeing so many of my relatives battle weight, I forced myself to step back and re-examine.  Watching people talk down and slowly to my mother (who is extremely well educated) when she was overweight to now talking to her like a person and even making eye contact.  

I cannot speak for others but I feel that this may be the perception of the general public.  "why should I let somebody that obviously cannot control their own life try to take care of me in an ambulance".

I am not trying to condone somebody requesting a "skinny" EMT but the perception is a tough one to crack.  When an obese medic responds to a medical call with the local FD, it is very tough to get respect.  Here are professional people that are medics too BUT they are also in decent physical shape.  Around here the FD gets paid considerably less than the hospital based medics.  So a rift develops.  FD sees themselves as underpaid staff required to stay in shape and pick up the slack of the incapable ambulance crew. 

To back up a bit, I think that cleanliness and professionalism go a LONG WAY in the public's perception.  If you are obese and filthy (and in my coworkers case, a crappy EMT) its gonna be a hard sell.  Obese but tidy, much easier. 

I know that I deviated from topic but it is still important.  My hope is that people will not underestimate an overweight EMT but also that the overweight EMT will realize that public perception is very cruel and that they should try very hard to break that stigma.

Happy hunting, Hope I did not offend anybody too much

Wy Medic


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## Sasha

medic417 said:


> I bet the patients were not just complaining about the weight.  I bet they complained because they looked unprofessional.  I know some very big very good medics.  But they keep themselves clean and they buy proper sized uniforms.  So they look big and professional, they do not look like big slobs.



Your post is an example of the closed mindedness I was talking about. Nothing in here indicates he's dirty. He has trouble finding a proper fitting shirt, but that doesn't equate to dirty.



> We have one guy that is so soggy around the mid section that he cannot purchase a uniform shirt big enough (and we have tried 3X). He is a paid staff member and cannot function in the slightest. We cover a county of almost 6,000 square miles and our most common call is a "one vehicle rollover". This guy is so out of it that he cant even crawl into the bar ditches to help out. Then when the patients do see him they get this disgusted look on their face and request somebody else to take care of them.



I read and reread it just to make sure, but I don't see anything to indicate he was dirty or smelly in the originally post. But of course you speculated it right away. 



> It was interesting to watch the public's perception and treatment of them prior to the surgery then gradually as they lost weight.



People don't just view overweight people as stupid, but as lazy, worthless, gluttons. When they try to lose weight, order the diet coke or go to the gym, they get eye rolls. 



> I cannot speak for others but I feel that this may be the perception of the general public. "why should I let somebody that obviously cannot control their own life try to take care of me in an ambulance".



We also precieve obesity's etiology as just people being lazy or with out the self control to put the ice cream down. 



> My point it, PLEASE EXERCISE. I am a big, awkward person (6'5" tall and 230LBS) so if I can do it, anybody can.


It's not always that simple as "Just work out!". Maybe there is some reason they can't work out. We're all guilty of judging people by their outward apperance of health when we have no idea what could be going on underneath the surface. Maybe they can't work out due to arthritis, maybe they're on beta blockers, maybe they live in a neighborhood where it's not safe to go walking alone, but they can't afford to go to the gym. Maybe they can't afford healthy foods and live off Top Ramen and Walmart brand fruit juice. And MAYBE... just MAYBE they don't care about society's closed minded constraints and are happy just the way they are and are comfortable in their own skin.

 There are a couple studies to support that obesity is more biological than a lack of willpower. Here are a few I had in my favorites.

Here, it talks about the brain itself, while the person does recognize they're fat, the brain doesn't recognize they're overweight due to a decreased response to Leptin.
Full article here:http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/in-obesity-brain-becomes-unaware-of-fat-12729.html


> people may be consciously aware that they are overweight, but “that’s different from the homeostatic circuitry being aware.”
> 
> The new results also bolster evidence that a suppressor called SOCS-3 may be responsible for the loss of sensitivity to the fat hormone known as leptin.





> The animals that did become obese maintained normal levels of the ARH brain receptors that respond to leptin, the researchers showed, while the level of SOCS-3 rose. Leptin hormone in those heavy animals failed to elicit “any element of the leptin signaling cascade.” The researchers demonstrated that those later players in the leptin pathway remained ready for action. Indeed, the downstream factors were actually found to be hypersensitive to stimulation.
> 
> “Previous studies have suggested that SOCS-3 is a negative regulator of leptin,” Cowley said. “As animals become bigger and fatter and leptin increases, SOCS-3 may rise to decrease the signal. It seems that in obesity, SOCS-3 might end up overriding the [leptin] signal completely.”




Here it talks about the brain response to sugar foods.
Full article here: http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2003/06/02_schmitzr_obesitypsych/


> Back in a Minneapolis laboratory, Dr. Levine is going over test results with his assistant. Levine has identified one part of the brain stimulated by sugar. He says it's the same part stimulated when drug addicts take their drug of choice. For this reason, Levine says when it comes to obesity, sugar is a leading culprit.


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## Bosco578

I love it when we arrive on scene at the same time as FD and they go racing in ahead of us. My respone to them is usually,now you can run just as fast out......CANCELLED!<_<


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## medic417

Sasha said:


> Your post is an example of the closed mindedness I was talking about. Nothing in here indicates he's dirty. He has trouble finding a proper fitting shirt, but that doesn't equate to dirty.



No it was not closed minded.  I stated what was probably the real concern. I also stated how people viewed large professional appearing medics.  I have seen the same response to unkempt "skinny" medics.  People do not have any confidence in someone that looks/smells unprofessional.  

So there are two points I make on this matter: 1. Look/smell professional.  2. Be in good enough shape to physically do the job.


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## Wyoming Medic

Sasha said:


> It's not always that simple as "Just work out!". Maybe there is some reason they can't work out. We're all guilty of judging people by their outward apperance of health when we have no idea what could be going on underneath the surface. Maybe they can't work out due to arthritis, maybe they're on beta blockers, maybe they live in a neighborhood where it's not safe to go walking alone, but they can't afford to go to the gym. Maybe they can't afford healthy foods and live off Top Ramen and Walmart brand fruit juice.



Believe me, I am very aware that it is not as simple as "work out" in many cases.  But in many many many more IT IS.  My mother was one of those cases.  She will even tell you that if she had worked out, the gastric bypass may have not been needed.  She reached a point where she was unable to work out due to her physical state.  By then is was sort of past the point of diminishing returns. 

That being said, If a person is in such a state that they cannot work out, they should not be working in ambulance/fire.  The number one killer BY FAR of first responders is cardiac in nature.  More than heat for firefighters, more than needle sticks of EMTs.  Yet we receive no training on physical fitness when we graduate.  And EMS is very physical.  Sure, driving around in the bus is easy.  What about those calls where you have to lift the shut in down 6 flights of stairs or (as is common here) must hike 1/4 mile down a 50% grade to get to the wreck victim THEM pack them down.

Check this out,
http://www.ems1.com/columnists/jennifer-milus/articles/317094-Nutrition-and-Heart-Disease-in-EMS

It is a very good article and should really point some fingers at EMS in general.  We are not immune from the same dangers and when a patient suffering from chest pain gets a lecture from an EMT that is in worse shape than they are, it looks poorly on the profession as a whole.

I'm not saying that everybody needs to have the chiseled abs and massive biceps of the "calender firefighters" but we do need to take care of ourselves and do the best we can.  I can GUARANTEE that there are physically challenging things that can be done in the home ( I do not have a gym membership).  Me personally, I do push ups while I watch TV.  Free and effective. Someone can't do pushups, Do situps.  Can't do situps, Walk in place.  Can't do any of the above.  Then they need to fall back and evaluate weather or not they really should pursue this as a line of work.

I'm not trying to be mean, I am trying to play devils advocate (and no, not the pinball game from the Simpsons).  I have been doing this for long enough and in enough places to see the problem for what it is.  Remember that paramedic (and all EMT levels) is not considered a license in most states, it is a CERTIFICATION.  So until we can look at ourselves and do some soul searching as a group, we will never move into that realm.

Wy Medic


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## Sasha

Wyoming Medic said:


> I'm not trying to be mean, I am trying to play devils advocate (and no, not the pinball game from the Simpsons).  I have been doing this for long enough and in enough places to see the problem for what it is.  Remember that paramedic (and all EMT levels) is not considered a license in most states, it is a CERTIFICATION.  So until we can look at ourselves and do some soul searching as a group, we will never move into that realm.
> 
> Wy Medic



I was not referring to just EMS, but people in general.

So you're saying, in order to be taken seriously as a profession, we all have to be in shape? What about smokers? That's just as unhealthy. Should we ban cigarettes in EMS too? To be taken seriously as a profession? What about obese nurses, and doctors, should they lose their license because you feel being overweight and in health care is unprofessional?



> We are not immune from the same dangers and when a patient suffering from chest pain gets a lecture from an EMT that is in worse shape than they are, it looks poorly on the profession as a whole.



The out of shape EMT lecturing to a chest pain patient has more problems then being overweight. Medics/EMTs should NEVER lecture their patients.

For the record, I AM a skinny EMT.


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## medic417

Sasha said:


> I What about smokers? That's just as unhealthy. Should we ban cigarettes in EMS too? To be taken seriously as a profession?



Yes we should.


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## Wyoming Medic

Sasha said:


> I was not referring to just EMS, but people in general.
> So you're saying, in order to be taken seriously as a profession, we all have to be in shape?




YUP, You nailed it (kind of).  Like I said (you seem to be good at reading and using what you want) we all have to make an attempt.  Every EMS person should be required to adhere to some form of physical standards.  Heck, Even truck drivers have more of a physical standard that EMS people do.  

CDL drivers have to get a DOT physical to be able to get their drivers license.  What about EMS staff who have to be able to act physically for hours at a time while peoples lives and trust hang in the balance?  Nope, no doctors physical NO NOTHING.

Same with smoking and sugar and trans fats.  IMO anybody that eats that garbage should seriously be concerned for their health and well being.  If I were the grand potentate of EMS for the U.S., I would require that all EMTs of every level be able to run 5 miles in under 20mins as well as be able to swim 3 miles with a blindfold on. 

You seem to be taking it harshly that I am SIMPLY STATING THROUGH MY SEVERAL YEARS OF ON THE JOB OBSERVATION, that we as a profession in EMS are in crap shape and it shows.  Heck, Steve Berry even makes fun of it.  I'm not asking or even demanding standards that I have outline above but I am telling people that the public views EMS poorly (sometimes) due to our physical conditioning.

I don't get why encouraging people to work out is so bad.  And for that matter, where do we draw the line?  Wheelchair ramps for EMTs?  Are you saying that we should allow EMTs to drive their little rascal scooters into the ambulance and not be held to any standard?  What about people that are so large (like my coworker) that it is a risk to me?  Why should I have to strain and sprain MY BACK due to his laziness and inability to lift?  Why should my dept. take the risk when this guy that is so big cannot sit the federally mandated 10 inches away from airbags?

Please RE READ all of my posts about this topic.  I will paraphrase here again. People should do all that they can to be in the BEST SHAPE POSSIBLE (Im not saying skinny or super model, I'm saying they best shape that that person can be in) and if they do not have the ability to maintain some SAFE level of fitness and health then they should not be in the EMS field.  I as a co worker should not have to bear the brunt of injury due to having to pic up slack, the patient should not have to bear the brunt of an EMT that is incapable of providing adequate care, and my employer should not have to bear the brunt of higher associated health cost.

If somebody can HONESTLY say that they meet the above criteria, then my message does not apply do them.

Wy Medic


Ps. yes we should be lecturing our patients.  Our job is to provide the best care possible and if that means making the patients not like us by calling them on the carpet, then YES we should.  By calling them on the carpet I mean about, cardiac problems, lack of compliance with meds, abusive relationships, drugs, ETC.


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## medic417

Wyoming Medic said:


> Ps. yes we should be lecturing our patients.  Our job is to provide the best care possible and if that means making the patients not like us by calling them on the carpet, then YES we should.  By calling them on the carpet I mean about, cardiac problems, lack of compliance with meds, abusive relationships, drugs, ETC.



Actually liked your entire response.  But on the qoute above maybe using educate the patient would be better sounding than lecture.  And yes some education is uncomfortable to the one getting it.


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## Wyoming Medic

medic417 said:


> Actually liked your entire response.  But on the qoute above maybe using educate the patient would be better sounding than lecture.  And yes some education is uncomfortable to the one getting it.



Agreed,  EDUCATE does sound better.


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## Sasha

Stereotypes! You are associating lack of the ability to lift, or do their job, or lazyness with being overweight!

That's NOT the case 99% of the time. Those who are overweight an unable to do their job, chances are, wont be able to do their jobs if they were "in shape". Just because you're skinny doesn't mean you can lift, just because you're fat doesn't mean you can't lift. 

And no, it is not YOUR business to lecture your patients. You are being called to them in a moment of vulnerability and what is viewed in their mind as an emergency. Let the lecture/education be left to doctors and nurses who actually know what they're talking about 90% of the time. Not to the 110 hour trained EMT.


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## medic417

Sasha said:


> Stereotypes! You are associating lack of the ability to lift, or do their job, or lazyness with being overweight!
> 
> That's NOT the case 99% of the time. Those who are overweight an unable to do their job, chances are, wont be able to do their jobs if they were "in shape". Just because you're skinny doesn't mean you can lift, just because you're fat doesn't mean you can't lift.
> 
> And no, it is not YOUR business to lecture your patients. You are being called to them in a moment of vulnerability and what is viewed in their mind as an emergency. Let the lecture/education be left to doctors and nurses who actually know what they're talking about 90% of the time. Not to the 110 hour trained EMT.




EMS is part of the education of patients if you do not educate or want to educate your patients you need to leave EMS.  Read mine and WY posts we both said that very thing.  You are doing what he said picking on one word and ignoring the context of the entire statements.


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## Sasha

medic417 said:


> You are doing what he said picking on one word and ignoring the context of the entire statements.



I'm not ignoring the context of posts, I'm picking out statements and replying to them that wont get me banned for my reply.


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## Wyoming Medic

Sasha said:


> Stereotypes! You are associating lack of the ability to lift, or do their job, or lazyness with being overweight!
> 
> That's NOT the case 99% of the time. Those who are overweight an unable to do their job, chances are, wont be able to do their jobs if they were "in shape". Just because you're skinny doesn't mean you can lift, just because you're fat doesn't mean you can't lift.
> 
> And no, it is not YOUR business to lecture your patients. You are being called to them in a moment of vulnerability and what is viewed in their mind as an emergency. Let the lecture/education be left to doctors and nurses who actually know what they're talking about 90% of the time. Not to the 110 hour trained EMT.




I have a sneaking suspicion that you have never seen an EMT that was so large that they could not walk around the cot in the ambulance or had to ride EXCLUSIVELY in the back due to their size,

I assume that you have never had your partner say "can you do the lifting today, my knees hurt"?

How about a partner that has had such a gut that it gets stuck whenever the wheels are retracted on the cot? 

Or how about a partner that is so overweight that they have so many health problems that they do their own duoneb treatments on the way to calls.


I don't care if you are the smartest EMT in the world and have a doctorate.  If they are that obese then they are WORTHLESS!!!!!

Stereotype nothing, come talk to me after paramedic school and 10 years on the job with several dozen partners under your belt, 2 back injuries and a gunshot wound to your face.  Then tell me how I am being mean and "stereotyping" when I request that my partner actually be able to move under their own power.

Wy Medic


Ps.  Yes, the 110 hour EMT-b should not be giving that much advice.  However I, who is a 2000 hour paramedic (well over the national standard curriculum recommendation) that had to get a degree to obtain the cert, feel more than qualified to be doling out advice.

And for the record, Wy EMT-Bs have over 200 hours of class time.


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## medic417

Sasha said:


> I'm not ignoring the context of posts, I'm picking out statements and replying to them that wont get me banned for my reply.




Basically all thats been said is anyone that is unprofessional and unable to do their job needs to get out of EMS.  You went off on us for presenting another option to the statement that the patient only wanted a different medic because they were fat.  So yes you seem to have taken what was said way out of context.  Sorry to offend you by offering another option.


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## Sasha

> I assume that you have never had your partner say "can you do the lifting today, my knees hurt"?



Negative, I have had a partner like that, and he was skinny as a rail. Knees hurt for a multitude of reasons. I've also seen EMTs too short for the "heavy" end of the stretcher. Should we ban them, too?

Perhaps the EMT you are referring to SHOULD get out of EMS. But to paint all overweight EMTs/Medics with the same brush is closed minded.


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## medic417

Sasha said:


> Negative, I have had a partner like that, and he was skinny as a rail. Knees hurt for a multitude of reasons. I've also seen EMTs too short for the "heavy" end of the stretcher. Should we ban them, too?
> 
> Perhaps the EMT you are referring to SHOULD get out of EMS. But to paint all overweight EMTs/Medics with the same brush is closed minded.



Neither of us did.  You took 1 word and ran with it.


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## Sasha

medic417 said:


> Neither of us did.  You took 1 word and ran with it.




Not quite.




> If I were the grand potentate of EMS for the U.S., I would require that all EMTs of every level be able to run 5 miles in under 20mins as well as be able to swim 3 miles with a blindfold on.





> "why should I let somebody that obviously cannot control their own life try to take care of me in an ambulance".





> When an obese medic responds to a medical call with the local FD, it is very tough to get respect.





> FD sees themselves as underpaid staff required to stay in shape and pick up the slack of the incapable ambulance crew.


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## Sapphyre

Wyoming Medic said:


> CDL drivers have to get a DOT physical to be able to get their drivers license.  What about EMS staff who have to be able to act physically for hours at a time while peoples lives and trust hang in the balance?  Nope, no doctors physical NO NOTHING.



I've been staying out of this one, as, well, obesity strikes close to home, and I have strong feelings against obese people  (sometime I'll tell ya'll what finally triggered someone I know, who was morbidly obese for 15+ years, to go out and do something about it, but, not today).

I want to say though, in response to the above quote.  My ambulance driver counts as a CDL add-on.  As such, I DID have to get, and maintain, a DOT physical.  Plus, my company requires an additional physical regularly.


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## Wyoming Medic

Sasha said:


> Negative, I have had a partner like that, and he was skinny as a rail. Knees hurt for a multitude of reasons. I've also seen EMTs too short for the "heavy" end of the stretcher. Should we ban them, too?
> 
> Perhaps the EMT you are referring to SHOULD get out of EMS. But to paint all overweight EMTs/Medics with the same brush is closed minded.




And to look the other way in the name of "equality" is reckless and shows poor decision making.

As far as the short EMT who could not lift the heave end of the cot, YES, if that person is incapable of doing the job they should be gotten rid of.  Same as your skinny partner.  If he cannot liftey then he no workey.

Did I say that overweight EMTs should be indiscriminately banned? NOPE, but everybody should be held to some form of physical standard.  When I am upside down in the ditch after my truck rolls, I want somebody that can get me out of the vehicle and take care of me.  

And if somebody shows up that is OBVIOUSLY not able to do their job? I will sue the tar out of them and their employer when they mess up.  Remember Misfeasance, malfeasance?  Well, I think that a lawyer could get any of those to stick against ANY ambulance company that hired somebody that was blatantly and woefully out of shape and did nothing to try and correct it.

So we will sit here while our fellow brothers and sisters die OFTEN due to cardiac (read obesity) related problems.  I do not apologize for upsetting the gentle balance that is EMS.  I will continue to push my employees to be the best that they can be and I will also speak up about those that aren't.  I will poke fun at our profession if it means that it makes us, as a community, better.  All of this will help me to sleep better at night.

I learned years ago to NOT just stay quiet when there are problems.  I have seen too many good and decent firefighters/EMTs/LEOs die or suffer just because they didn't stay fit.  I myself have suffered 2 debilitating back injuries, one of them because I was not physically fit for the job.  When I think back at the THOUSANDS of dollars I cost my employer and kept from the equipment budget I feel terrible.  So I vowed to stay in some shape (not great but I can touch my toes) and to educate those that haven't figured that out.

So I guess what I am saying here is that I will never see your side of the argument.  I think it is morally and ethically (basically the same thing I KNOW) irresponsible to turn our back on an obvious problem.  I have been there, done that, got the T-shirt, out grew it, hung onto it for a few years and decided to turn it into shop rags ( that totals quite a few calls and seeing quite a few things, yet I have not seen it all).  I know that I am speaking from experience.  

I now leave this particular discussion.  The argument has grown stale and it is obvious that we are at an impasse (as I feel that I have been repeating myself over and over and over again).  But rest assured *start the dramatic music*  I WILL BE BACK (evil laugh) TO FIGHT ANOTHER DAY (evil laugh drones on)


Wy Medic


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## Wyoming Medic

Sapphyre said:


> I've been staying out of this one, as, well, obesity strikes close to home, and I have strong feelings against obese people  (sometime I'll tell ya'll what finally triggered someone I know, who was morbidly obese for 15+ years, to go out and do something about it, but, not today).
> 
> I want to say though, in response to the above quote.  My ambulance driver counts as a CDL add-on.  As such, I DID have to get, and maintain, a DOT physical.  Plus, my company requires an additional physical regularly.



And I do truly appreciate a company doing that.  That really does show considerable initiative on a companies behalf.  I also know that I must maintain a DOT physical card for my job.

My jab was at states and NREMT.  I know of no state and I am quite certain that NREMT does not require any type of physical to become certified.  It is all to often left in the hands of directors that have more problems to worry about.

Wy med


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## Sapphyre

Wy.
In California if you want to drive the rig, you have to have a valid DOT.  I know of one company out here that hires non drivers, making said DOT not necessary, mainly as an insurance issue.  Other than that, everyone has to have it.


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## Wyoming Medic

Sapphyre said:


> Wy.
> In California if you want to drive the rig, you have to have a valid DOT.  I know of one company out here that hires non drivers, making said DOT not necessary, mainly as an insurance issue.  Other than that, everyone has to have it.



Very interesting.  Thanks for that.  Learn something new every day.  It is definitely a start in the right direction.  Now if only more states would jusmp on board.

Wy medic


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## Scout

WY,


can i just say wow, you speak of sueing but i'm full sure if you or your company did not hire someone based on a physical disability you would have a very interesting time in court.

Why do you not have mechanical aids to lifting? it is obvious you need them as you have said that your partners and indeed yourself have outlined dificulties in safe lifting and indeed have sustained injury from these bad practices. Thsi idea of lifting and cot do you want to go throu how this is still happpening in this day and age?


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## Wyoming Medic

Scout said:


> WY,
> 
> 
> can i just say wow, you speak of sueing but i'm full sure if you or your company did not hire someone based on a physical disability you would have a very interesting time in court.




Nah, Municipal fire and ambulance departments must do this.  Any applicant has to read the job description THEN state that they can either perform the job functions or cannot.  If reasonable accommodations can be made then YES, the person stands just as much of a chance of being hired as the next.  However if that person cannot fulfill the job duties, then they are denied.

For example, we had a young man apply to become a firefighter with our local dept.  He had a great educational background, he passed the written test but he had one big problem.  He was born without a functioning left hand.  Despite a meeting to try to discuss possible accommodations, we were unable to come up with any.  There are some things that just cannot be overcome.  The twist of fate is cruel but in some lines of work it is unavoidable.  Somebody who is incapable of walking up stairs or fitting into an ambulance are just not what the tax paying public wants nor deserves.

And as far a lift assist goes, We have looked at power cots.  Way over our budget for the particular dept. I am with now.  We have important things to pay for like big screen TVs and ice cream machines 

In all seriousness, Our administration is so far behind times it isn't even funny.  They would much rather buy big screen TVs or king sized beds for the staff than pay for things like Decent cots, Stair chairs, safety glasses, etc.  I have had more than one knock down, drag out with them over this.

Wy medic


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## Sasha

> We have looked at power cots



My old service had those on the 24 hour trucks. They're great, 'til the battery decides to die. Then it's quite a bit heavier than your average stretcher.

I wasn't arguing that someone not capable of perfoming their job should be kept, but that just because a person is obese does not mean they can't perform the standards of their job.


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