# Philadelphia Paramedics plan suit...



## alphatrauma (Oct 20, 2010)

Miriam Hill - Philadelphia Inquirer said:
			
		

> Fri, Oct. 8, 2010
> 
> "In 2008, paramedics won a federal court case saying they are allowed to earn overtime. The city then appealed to the state labor board to have the 220 paramedics removed from the firefighters union"...



*Full article*


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## usalsfyre (Oct 20, 2010)

As crappy as this is, these guys actually opened themselves up to it when they sued over the overtime and were reclassed under FLSA as non-fire suppression personnel. 

Still a skeezy move though.


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## CAOX3 (Oct 20, 2010)

I'm confused or overtired, the firefighters don't earn overtime?


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## medic417 (Oct 20, 2010)

FF's can be made to work 53 hours a week w/o OT or something like that.  They wanted out from that as they did not fight fire and felt as they did not get as much down time as FF's they should be paid standard OT after the 40 hours of work.    Now the city is using that to keep them from using the union negotiations for pay etc.   I know many services that classify their Paramedics as FF's to avoid paying OT even though only tie they may have is when they see each other at a wreck scene.


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## CAOX3 (Oct 20, 2010)

Oh I got it now.   

Well like my grandmother use to say, be careful what you wish for.


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## alphatrauma (Oct 20, 2010)

I will admit, being born and raised in Philly (and hopefully returning in the not so distant future), I do have somewhat of a dog in this race and may be biased, to a certain extent. That being said, I don't think by any stretch of the imagination, given the city's history with it's EMS operations and staffing, one could imply that the city's Paramedics are getting their "just desert". What's happening there is unacceptable by any standard.


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## usalsfyre (Oct 21, 2010)

alphatrauma said:


> I will admit, being born and raised in Philly (and hopefully returning in the not so distant future), I do have somewhat of a dog in this race and may be biased, to a certain extent. That being said, I don't think by any stretch of the imagination, given the city's history with it's EMS operations and staffing, one could imply that the city's Paramedics are getting their "just desert". What's happening there is unacceptable by any standard.



I'm not by any means implying Philadelpia's medics are bad people, and should have to deal with attrocious staffing and horrible run volume. But they did make the bed on this one.

It's an unintended consequence that no one looked into, that given the history with the city, I'm frankly suprised didn't happen sooner. It's not unacceptable under the only standard that matters in their eyes, it's perfectly legal. This needs to serve as a warning to think before acting.


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## usalsfyre (Oct 21, 2010)

medic417 said:


> I know many services that classify their Paramedics as FF's to avoid paying OT even though only tie they may have is when they see each other at a wreck scene.



Any city doing this is opening themselves up to a *LARGE* back pay setlement. Not saying it doesn't happen, but it's a hell of a risk.


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## medic417 (Oct 21, 2010)

usalsfyre said:


> Any city doing this is opening themselves up to a *LARGE* back pay setlement. Not saying it doesn't happen, but it's a hell of a risk.



Been happening for many many years and even if they are found in violation back pay is only 3 years if I recall correctly so if they do it a decade or more big savings.


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## 46Young (Oct 21, 2010)

usalsfyre said:


> Any city doing this is opening themselves up to a *LARGE* back pay setlement. Not saying it doesn't happen, but it's a hell of a risk.



A good many places make their EMT's get their FF1 somewhere. They're FF/EMT's by title, but it's understood that they won't ever actually be on a suppression unit. That way they're covered.


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## 46Young (Oct 21, 2010)

medic417 said:


> FF's can be made to work 53 hours a week w/o OT or something like that.  They wanted out from that as they did not fight fire and felt as they did not get as much down time as FF's they should be paid standard OT after the 40 hours of work.    Now the city is using that to keep them from using the union negotiations for pay etc.   I know many services that classify their Paramedics as FF's to avoid paying OT even though only tie they may have is when they see each other at a wreck scene.



That sounds about right. We get time and a half over 112 hours a pay period. What people don't realize is that if you do 40 straight and then 16 as OT, your hourly rate will be lower than if you're paid straight time for the entire 56. If you insist on getting OT over 40 hrs in this situation, your time and a half rate will be lower. This will affect you when you want to do OT shifts. If you fight to get the 40+16, the dept will just lower your hourly so that you're making the same yearly salary. 

Be careful what you wish for!


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## JPINFV (Oct 21, 2010)

To play devil's advocate in defense of the city, the paramedics negiotated a contract with the city and are now looking to force the city to give them, what is in effect, a 10% wage. Why shouldn't, at a minimum, the paramedics be forced to renegotiate their contract? 

Non-devil's advocate comment: I've always felt that employees should be able to negotiate terms for themselves, including being empowered to waive work rules. If I want to work 4 10 hour shifts (in California in most circumstances anything over 8 hours in a shift is considered overtime) instead of 5 8 hour shifts, I should have the right to waive overtime. If, based on the benefits package, I agree to work 50 hours a week, I should be allowed to work 50 hours a week and waive overtime. 




46Young said:


> A good many places make their EMT's get their FF1 somewhere. They're FF/EMT's by title, but it's understood that they won't ever actually be on a suppression unit. That way they're covered.




However, my understanding is that that exemption only applies if the fire fighters are actually engaged in suppression activities (I'll argue that being 'engaged to wait' for a fire counts) over half of the time they're on the clock. It's kinda of hard to argue that a couple of employees who are always assigned to ambulance units are involved with suppression activities.


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## CAOX3 (Oct 22, 2010)

Sorry wrong thread


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## 46Young (Oct 22, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> However, my understanding is that that exemption only applies if the fire fighters are actually engaged in suppression activities (I'll argue that being 'engaged to wait' for a fire counts) over half of the time they're on the clock. It's kinda of hard to argue that a couple of employees who are always assigned to ambulance units are involved with suppression activities.



Either that's not true, or the vast majority of FD's in the U.S. are open to litigation on the matter. There are many EMS Lt's here who only do EMS, although they can be used as a bucket FF. There are also FF/medics and EMS Techs that only ride the box, not by choice, since the engine officer is a dual hatter medic/suppression officer. These EMT's that are FF's in name only could be used to help on the fireground, or get dressed and make a quick grab if they're the only ones onscene, or sign up for OT on a suppression piece, but they're almost never assigned to a fire position in most cases.


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## JPINFV (Oct 22, 2010)

Here's an interesting paper from 2000 discussing the FLSA exemption (in short, overtime is calculated over a set work period between 7 days to 28 days instead of a single 7 day work period. This only applies to police and fire fighters who are non-exempt AND spend at least 80% of their time doing fire suppression activities. Down time doesn't count for or against and work incidental to fire fighting (which is where EMS comes in) doesn't count for or against). Apparently just being a fire fighter even responding to only EMS calls counts towards the 80%. So I guess Philadelphia's best option is to just require everyone to become crosstrained, even if there is no actual intention to use them as fire fighters. 

http://www.allbusiness.com/legal/litigation/1105078-1.html


On a side note, if EMS became a profession, how long would it be to classify EMS providers as "exempt?"


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## TacoMEDIC (Oct 22, 2010)

Where I work, FFs OT is paid for more than 124 hours in a 28 day period. (56 hour work week)


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## JPINFV (Oct 22, 2010)

TacoMEDIC said:


> Where I work, FFs OT is paid for more than 124 hours in a 28 day period. (56 hour work week)



Just checking, you mean 224?


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## TacoMEDIC (Oct 22, 2010)

JPINFV said:


> Just checking, you mean 224?



Correct! Thanks for catching that.


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## 46Young (Oct 22, 2010)

TacoMEDIC said:


> Where I work, FFs OT is paid for more than 124 hours in a 28 day period. (56 hour work week)



(224)

Here's where you get slick - you do your OT at the beginning of your pay cycle. With us, scheduled OT is time and a half regardless of what day it falls on. Besides already being time and a half, these hours also count towards your 224. So, if you do 24 of OT on the first day of the 28 day pay cycle, the last 24 hours of straight time on that 224 becomes time and a half. Since medic OT here is copious, I religously do this. I used to wonder how sometimes my OT for a particular pay period was double time rather than time and a half, but now I have an idea.

Why it only works at the beginning of the pay period I can't say. It was explained to me some time ago, but I've since forgotten the explanation.


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## BLSBoy (Oct 23, 2010)

Since I am a Paramedic only, I get OT for anything over then 40, and I am in the FRS High Risk Pension. The FF/Medics are FLSA. 

Sucks for those guys. Philly is a crap hole, but I <3 their teams.


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## Jay (Oct 24, 2010)

46Young said:


> A good many places make their EMT's get their FF1 somewhere. They're FF/EMT's by title, but it's understood that they won't ever actually be on a suppression unit. That way they're covered.




In Philly all Fire Fighters are EMT's and [usually] get assigned to work the BLS units. Every firefighter goes through EMT-B training during the academy and has to maintain it throughout their career. The problem is that the paramedics are not fire fighters like their BLS counterparts, therefore they do not fall into the same category. An interesting conundrum to say the least.


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